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Full text of "Investigation of organized crime in interstate commerce. Hearings before a Special Committee to Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, United States Senate, Eighty-first Congress, second session, pursuant to S. Res. 202 .."

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INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME 
IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



HEARINGS 

BEFORE THE 

SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTWATE 

OEGANIZED CEIME IN INTEESTATE COMMENCE 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-SECOND CONGEESS 

FIRST SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

S. Res. 202 

(Slst Congress) 

A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AN INVESTIGATION OF 
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



PART 9 



MICHIGAN 



FEBRUARY 8, 9, AND 19, 1951 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce 






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INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME 
IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



HEARINGS 

BKFORE THE 

SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 

OEGANIZED CKIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-SECOND CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

S. Res. 202 

(81st Congress) 

A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AN INVESTIGATION OF 
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



PART 9 



MICHIGAN 



FEBRUARY 8, 9, AND 19, 1951 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized. Crime in Interstate Commerce 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
68958 WASHINGTON : 1951 



0. S. SUPE/?//VTfNOENT OF DOCUMENTS 

APfi 11 1951 



SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE ORGANIZED CRIME IN 
INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

ESTES KEFAUVER, Tennessee, Chairman 

HERBERT R. O'CONOR, Maryland CHARLES W. TOBEY, New Hampshire 

LESTER C. HUNT, Wyomtog ALEXANDER WILEY, Wisconsin 

Rudolph Halley, Chief Counsel 

n 



CONTENTS 



Testimony of — • Page 

Amis, William D., investigator for the committee, Washington, D. C-- 78-80 

Bennett, Harry Herbert, Desert Hot Springs, Calif 80-103 

Berman, Philip, Detroit, Mich 183-186 

Boehm, Ernest C, assistant prosecuting attorney, Wayne County, 

Mich '254-256 

Boos, George F., police commissioner, city of Detroit, Mich 6-8 

Bufalino, William Eugene, Detroit, Mich', and Pittston, Pa 188-191 

Cobo, Hon. Albert E., mayor, city of Detroit, Mich 3-4 

D'Anna, Anthony, Detroit, Mich 10-47 

Freedman, Louis, Detroit, Mich., accompanied by John W. Babcock, 

attorney, Detroit, Mich 172-178 

Fry, John A., Detroit, Mich 149-161 

Ga'sper, John, Detroit, Mich 9-10 

Glazer, Saul A., Detroit, Mich 221-224 

Guy, Ralph B., chief of police, Dearborn, Mich 210-217 

Hancock, Walter F., Lincoln Park, Mich 50j!___ 232-233 

Hester, Edward, Detroit, Mich., accompanied by Harry Robert 

Bockoff, attorney, Detroit, Mich 217-221, 234-237 

Holt, Willard, Detroit, Mich 74-78 

Licavoli, Peter, Detroit, Mich 54-74 

Lilygren, George N., Washington, D. C 178-180 

Mazev, Emil, secretary-treasurer, UAW-CIO, Detroit, Mich 199- 

201, 224-228 

Meli, Angelo, Detroit, Mich 186-188 

Minaudo, Nono, Detroit, Mich 104-111 

Mosser, Andrew, patrolman inspector in charge, United States Immi- 
gration and Naturalization Service, Detroit, Mich 111-114, 132-133 

Murphy, Hon. George B., Detroit, Mich 180 

Pardo, A. William, Wyandotte, Mich 47 53 

Perrone, Gasper, Mount Clemens, Mich 144-149 

Perrone, Sam, Detroit, Mich 115-132 

Renda, Carl, Detroit, Mich., accompanied by Samuel L. Travis, 

attorney, Detroit, Mich 161-171 

Ricciardi, Louis Edward, Detroit, Mich 245-248, 259-263 

Robinson, William Dean, Grosse Point Park, Detroit, Mich 191-199 

Rubino, Mike, Detroit, Mich 237-241 

Slack, Paul, Inspector, Police Department, Detroit, Mich 241-244 

Stewart, William Scott, attorney, Detroit, Mich 228-232 

Tocco, William, Detroit, Mich., accompanied by Walter Schweikart, 

attorney, Detroit, Mich 248-254 

Walker, Gordon L., Ford Motor Co., Dearborn, Mich 202-209 

Williams, Hon. G. Mennen, Governor of the State of Michigan 4-6 

Zivian, Max J., Detroit, Mich., accompanied by Joseph A. Vieson, 

attorney, Detroit, Mich 133-144 

Schedule of exhibits IV 

Thursday, February 8, 1951 1 

Friday, February 9, 1951 183^ 

Monday, February 19, 1951 259 

Appendix 265 



IV 



CONTENTS 
SCHEDULE OF EXHIBITS 



Number and summary of exhibits 



1. Program of American Italian delegates — first annual dance, 

Saturday, November 12, 1949 

2. Photograph and police record of Tony D'Anna 

3. Criminal record of Joe Massei from Detroit Police Depart- 

ment 

4. Detroit Police Department record No. 30787, dated June 1, 

1950, of Pete Licavoli 

5. Photo of Pete Licavoli's residence in Grosse Point, and folder 

from his Grace Ranch 

6. Green Sheet Almanac 

7. Police record of a Joe Bommarito, Detroit Police No. 37496 _ 

8. A second police record of one Joe Bommarito, No. 29317 

9. H. R. 6286, Eightieth Congress, second session, a bill for relief 

of Francesca Cammarata 

10. Photograph of residence of Santo Perrone, Grosse Point Park. 

11. A check for $20,000, drawn by Sam Perrone on the National 

Bank of Detroit 

12. A list of aliens, furnished by Immigration and Naturalization 

Service, who entered country illegally and worked at the 
Detroit (Mich.) Stove Works 

13. Detroit Police Department No. 12997, record of Gaspare 

Perrone 

14. One-man grand jury transcript, submitted by Judge George B. 

Murphy 

15. Photograph of Angelo Meli's home at 1016 Devonshire Street, 

Grosse Pointe Park, Mich 

16. Photostats of four affidavits relating to muscling in the juke- 

box business in Detroit, Mich 

17. A statement explanatory of a telegram in re Francesca 

Cammarata case, from the office of Senator Capehart 

18. Photograph of house rented by Mike Rubino 

19. Policy records dated April 21 

20. File of records taken from home of Mike Rubino 

21. Photographs and checks identified by Inspector Paul Slack, 

Detroit Police Department 

22. Home of William Tocco, Detroit, Mich 



Intro- 
duced 


Appears 


on 


on 


page— 


page— 


9 


0) 


17 


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19 


265 


56 


266 


58 


267 


63 


0) 


64 


268 


64 


269 


69 


270 


115 


270 



130 

130 
146 
181 

188 

190 

228 
240 
241 
242 

244 
250 



271 



272 

273 

273- 
1028 

1029 

1029 

{') 
1031 

(') 
C) 

(0 
(') 



1 On file with committee. 

2 Written into record. 



INVESTIGATION OF OEGANIZED CEIME IN INTEESTATE 

COMMEECE 



THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1951 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee To Ina^stigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Detroit^ Mich. 

The committee met, pursuant to call of the chairman, at 10 a. m., in 
room 734, Federal Building, Senator Herbert E. O'Conor presiding. 

Present : Senator O'Conor. 

Also present : Rudolph Halley, chief counsel ; John L. Burling, asso- 
ciate counsel; Alfred M. Klein, associate counsel. 

The Chairman. The hearing will please be in order. At the out- 
set, I should like to make a brief statement indicating the purpose 
of the hearing and the manner in which it will be conducted. 

This hearing is one of a series that is being conducted throughout 
the country by the Senate Committee To Investigate Organized Crime 
in Interstate Commerce. Its purpose is to inquire into the existence 
of organized criminal gangs, how and where they operate, and whether 
or not they employ the vehicle and avenues of interstate commerce. 
Another purpose is to determine whether these organized crimesters, 
whose operations have already been definitely established by hearings 
elsewhere, have corrupted local government in the course of their ac- 
tivities and the extent of their impact and influence on the local and 
national economy. 

This committee derives its authority from Senate Resolution 202 of 
the second session of the Eighty-first Congress. Under that resolu- 
tion, the committee has authority to subpena witnesses, to hold hear- 
ings wherever and whenever it sees fit to obtain information on which 
to base a report to the United States Senate, and to recommend what- 
ever legislation it may see fit to suggest under the circumstances it 
discovers. 

At a meeting of the committee held in Washington, Senator Ke- 
fauver, the chairman, was authorized and directed to appoint sub- 
committees to hold hearings in certain cities to fulfill the mandate of 
Resolution 202. He has appointed me as a subcommittee of one to 
hold hearings in Detroit, Mich., commencing today. By vote of the 
committee, one member is to constitute a quorum for the purpose of 
taking testimony at these hearings. 

For the purpose of the record, a copy of Resolution 202 and a copy 
of the minutes of the meeting of the committee authorizing the hold- 
ing of hearings in Detroit and my appointment as a subcommittee 
of one to conduct these hearings will, at this point, be inserted into 
the record. 



2 ORGANIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

(The documents above referred to are as follows:) 

February 3, 1951. 
Hon. Herbert R. O'Conoe, 

Senate Office Building, Washington, D. C. 
Dear Senator O'Conor : In accordance with thp authority granted me by 
the committee under the resolution attached, I hereby name you as chairman of 
the subcommittee of the Special Committee to Investigate Organized Crime in 
Interstate Commei'ce to conduct hearings in Detroit, Mich., beginning February 
8, 1951. 

Sincerely, 

EsTES Kefauvee, Chairman. 

January 3, 1951. 

Special Committee To Investigate Organized Chime in Interstate Commerce 

Resolved, That the chairman of this committee be and hereby is authorized at 
his discretion to appoint one or more subcommittees of one or more Senators, of 
whom one member shall be a quoi-um for the purpose of taking testimony and all 
other committee acts, to hold hearings at such time and places as the chairman 
might designate, in furtherance of the committee's investigation of organized 
crime, in the vicinities of the cities of Cleveland, Ohio, and Detroit, Mich. 

(S. Res. 202 is on file with the committee.) 

The Chairman. Preparation for this hearing has been made by 
members of the committee staff under the direction of Mr. John S. 
Burling, our associate counsel. It is also a pleasure to introduce to 
you our chief counsel, Mr. Rudolph Halley, and another associate 
counsel, Mr. Alfred Klein, who have come to Detroit to assist in the 
hearings. 

Mr. Burling will conduct the examination of witnesses. 

I should like to call special attention to this statement of fact. 
Obviously, the committee cannot investigate every local situation that 
is touched with a criminal aspect. If that were the case, it would 
spend years in a single city. We can only examine the high spots of 
crime where it crosses state lines; that is our principal function and 
we propose to stick very close to it in these hearings, as we have 
-elsewhere. 

Mr. Burling has called a considerable number of witnesses. It 
should be borne in mind that no reflection is cast upon anyone by the 
fact that he has been subpenaed to appear ; nor should any inference 
be drawn from the fact that a witness is called upon or. not called 
upon to testify. That will develop as the hearing progresses. 

I should like, also, to make one further observation and it is this: 
That the committee is equally intent upon maintaining the good reini- 
tation of those wdio should not be smirched as it is to find the facts, if 
they show anything unfavorable about a person. Consequently, any 
individual or corporation, for that matter, whose name may be brought 
into these proceedings, has a perfect right to have his response made 
promptly to the committee. The committee will be vigilant to see 
that anyone who is accused and who feels that he desires to say any- 
thing in his own defense or in explanation of the matter — the com- 
mittee wishes to give him assurance that that will be done. 

I should also like, in making this introduction, to indicate the 
presence of Mr. Kane, the United States attorney, whom we are hon- 
ored and happy to have with us. 

As is customary, the official reporters are here and we woidd like 
to have them sworn at this time. 



ORGANIZEfD CRIME IJST INTERSTATE COMMERiCE S 

(Whereupon, the official reporters were duly sworn by the chair- 
man.) 

The Chairman. We had anticipated the pleasure of having his 
Excellency, the Governor here, at the outset. We are advised that 
the Governor will be here shortly, and, of course, upon his arrival, we 
will be delighted to hear from him. 

However, in order to expedite the conduct of the proceedings, we 
will go forward. 

The first witness, therefore, will be his Honor, Mayor Cobo. 

Do you swear the testimony you will give this committee will be 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Cobo. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF HON. ALBERT E. COBO, MAYOU, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Will you state, please, for the record, your full 
name ? 

Mr. Cobo. Albert E. Cobo. 

The Chairman. Counsel will proceed to interrogate the mayor. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Mayor, the committee has asked you to come 
here and you have been kind enough to come here, to tell us about the 
crime situation in your city ; what is being done to meet it ; what spe- 
cial problems you find that you believe might be of interest to the 
committee ; and what, if anything, you think should be done by the way 
of Federal legislation to further improve the situation. That is about 
as broad an assignment as we can give you. 

Mr. CoBO. I will be happy to try. 

I have a statement here that I would like to read, if I may, and 
then, if you have any questions or anything else, I will be very happy 
to try to answer them. 

The Chairman. Supposing you just proceed with the statement and 
then, anything that you might wish to add, we w^ill be glad to have 
you do so, or we will interrogate. 

Mr. Cobo. As mayor of the city of Detroit, I want to assure you 
of every cooperation on the part of our city government. I give you 
this assurance not only as mayor, but also as vice president of the 
American Municipal Association. 

It was my privilege to serve as a member of the committee on mu- 
nicipal legislation at the Attorney General's Conference on Organized 
Crime held in Washington on February 15, 1950. 

Detroit's position in this matter was made clear at the Attorney 
General's conference. We need new Federal laws. 

I feel that it is imperative for Congress to adopt a law which would 
require the registration of all firearms and access to such records by all 
law-enforcement agencies. 

I believe that Congress should adopt laws which would make it a 
Federal offense to use the telephone and telegraph, or other means of 
communication, for the dissemination of gambling information. 

We need these laws not only to stop persons engaged in these crimi- 
nal activities, but also so that they may act as a deterrent against 
others who might engage in these activities. 

Your investigation has already brought out the fact that certain 
types of crime are Nation-wide, rather than local in character. Syndi- 
cated crime knows no boundaries and should be a matter of concern 



4 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

not merely on a local level but also on a Federal level. The adoption 
of Federal laws would give our police department time to combat the 
violation of local laws and to fight local crime. 

The adoption of Federal laws does not mean the supplanting of 
local policy by Federal agencies. It would simply mean that a more 
effective remedy is available to local authorities. Many of our cases 
involving local violations have developed into Federal violations, such 
as those under the Lindbergh Kidnaping Act, the Mann Act, the Dyer 
Act, and the Narcotic Act. We cite the decrease that took place in 
the use of mails to defraud when it became a Federal offense. 

We hope that your investigation will be fruitful and give us the 
much-needed legislation to effectively combat syndicated crime. 

I believe that you have alread^^ received complete cooperation and 
assistance from the Detroit Police Department. I know you will 
continue to receive such assistance so long as you are here. If there 
is anything else you wish through me as mayor of the city of Detroit, 
3^ou need but ask. 

Mr. Burling. Thank you very much. The committee will give 
more careful consideration to your thoughts, Mr. Mayor. 

The Chairman. I now wish to call Governor Williams. I made 
mention of the fact prior to your coming that it is customary to swear 
all the witnesses. I am sure you have no objections to that. 

Do you swear the testimony you will give this committee will be 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God? 

]Mr. Williams. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF HON. G. MENNEN WILLIAMS, GOVEENOR OF 
STATE OF MICHIGAN, LANSING, MICH. 

The Chairman. Now, Governor, as was mentioned prior to your 
coming, we were very happy indeed in the knowledge that you were 
with us and appreciative of your evident cooperation. We desired 
to hear you first and we are very glad to afford you this opportunity. 

Of course, you are coming at your own request and own suggestion. 

Mr. Williams. It is a mutual pleasure. 

The CHAiR:\rAN. You have indicated your desire to be here and we 
have indicated the desire to have you here. I ask you whether you 
have a prepared statement. 

Mr. Williams. Yes. 

The Chairman, Then, Governor, would it be your desire to read 
the statement, also to answer any questions, and, of course, any elabora- 
tion that you might desire to make, and we will be very glad to have 
you do so as to any questions we might wish to propound. We thank 
you, sir; and will you just j^roceed. Governor? 

Mr. Willia:\is. Let me preface my remarks this morning by extend- 
ing to your honorable committee my assurance of the fullest coopera- 
tion from the State government of Michigan. 

Personally I have the deepest interest in the subject matter of this 
inquiry. In my past exj)erience in Federal grand jury work in this 
State, and as a special assistant to the United States Attorney General, 
I gained some elementary knowledge of the ramifications of interstate 
criminal activities. I Avas impressed by the national scope of the 



ORGANIZE© CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 5 

problem which is presented by modern oro;anized crime which extends 
beyond the boundaries of individual States. Anything that can be 
done to assist the States to control that type of crime will be welcomed 
in Michigan. 

We believe that INlichigan has been alert to this problem, and that 
organized crime has had a much harder time of it here than in some 
other parts of the Nation. But we are not deluding ourselves that 
Michigan is immune to the activities of hoodlum organizations whose 
activities are Nation-wide. Whatever light the committee can cast 
upon the situation here in Michigan will be welcomed and will be 
acted upon by State authorities with the utmost vigor. 

Here in Michigan we believe we have a State police organization 
which is one of the finest in the entire Nation. The manner in which 
tjie State police dealt with a wave of bank hold-ups a few years back 
is a matter of almost legendary renown. Today that form of crime is 
very rare in Michigan. But it is significant that in curbing bank 
hold-ups the State police had the support of Federal law and Federal 
authorities. 

Similar results have come from the operation of the Federal inter- 
state fugitive law, and from the Federal legislation against trans- 
portation of kidnap victims across State lines. These laws have made 
it possible for the State authorities to get the assistance of Federal 
authorities in cases which were beyond the scope of any single city 
or State police agency. 

It seems to me that there must be a number of other ways in which 
the Federal authority could be brought to the aid of States in curbing 
interstate crime. I would like to make two concrete suggestions : 

First, it seems to me there should be a way whereby the governor 
of a State could call for the assistance of the FBI in the solution of 
crimes which appear to him to be beyond the scope or resources of 
State or local authorities. 

For example, in the case of the shotgun attacks upon Walter and 
Victor Reuther, there was ample reason to suspect that these crimes 
had their origin in a wide conspiracy. The shooting of these two 
highly respected citizens shocked the entire State. I felt that the 
probable interstate origins of these crimes ought to be investigated. 
I sought to enlist the aid of the FBI. But, because there was no clear 
showing that a violation of Federal law was involved, the FBI could 
not, under existing regulations, be bi'ought fully into the case. 

I do not mean to imply any lack of cooperation on the part of the 
FBI. For years I have enjoyed a very pleasant personal relationship 
with Mr. J. Edgar Hoover, and I am sure he gave what help he could. 

But it seems to me that there should be some means whereby the 
Governor of the State could enlist Federal police help, as he can call 
for Federal troops in case of emergency, or as a city can call upon the 
Governor for the assistance of the State police. 

My second point is this : That State control of illegal race betting 
cannot be eifective while bets can be made across State lines by tele- 
graph and while interstate wire services supply illegal bookies with 
the information necessary to their trade. The committee has already 
heard much testimoliy about the activities of national race betting 
syndicates. It seems obvious to me that some way must be devised 
to prevent the use of interstate communication facilities in activities 
which are in violation of the laws of the several States. 



6 ORGAN^ZEiD C'REME IX INTERSTATE COMlVIERCEi 

We ill Micliigan are proud of the constant figlit which we have waged 
against organized crime. We believe that in general that fight has 
been successful in holding such crime to a minimum. We have used 
and will continue to use every facility and authority available to a 
sovereign State. To this end I have been working with the legislature 
to increase the size and potency of the State police. 

We do welcome, however, any information which this inquiry may 
develop; and we hope that out of this committee's work will come 
more effective means of cooperation between Federal and State au- 
thorities in dealing with interstate criminal operations. 

The Chairman. Governor, we are indebted for your statement. 
Are there any questions. Counsel? 

Mr. Burling. No, Mr. Chairman. The Governor's statement is 
extremely clear and very thoughtful, and I share your gratitude. 

Mr. Halley. I have one question. Governor. In other States there 
have been certain difficulties growing out of the overlapping of juris- 
diction of law-enforcement offices. For instance, in Illinois the State 
I^olice cannot go into many communities. They simply do not have 
the authority. In other communities the county attorney and the 
sheriff have overlapping authorities, so that each is in possession of 
the belief that the other law-enforcement officer has done the job, 
and quite often it occurs that nobody has done the job. Do you 
have that type of problem in this State? 

Mr. Williams. Well, I could answer that question generally, but the 
State police commissioner is here and perhaps we could ask him. 
Could you answer that. Commissioner Leonard ? He wants to know if 
there is overlapping of authority. I think I can answer the question, 
but here is a man who is right on the job and can tell you more. 

Mr. Leonard. Unlike Illinois, the INIichigan State police, under the 
legislative act which brought it into being, has full police authority 
throughout the entire State, inside of villages, cities, counties, and 
rural areas. Illinois does not possess that power and authority, so we 
do not have the same situation confronting us as they do there. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

Mr. Williams. I might state our attorney general has the same 
power of superseding any local law-enforcement agency in the courts, 
but, of course, we work on a basis of economy and prefer the local 
organization to do their job first. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you very much. 

The Chairman. Governor, we are very much indebted for your ap- 
pearance, and it is a pleasure to have had you. 

Police Commissioner Boos. 

Do you swear the testimony you will give this committee will be 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God? 

Mr. Boos. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE F. BOOS, COMMISSIONER OF POLICE, 
DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Your full name, please? 

Mr. Boos. George F. Boos. 

The Chaiioian. And your official position is ? , 

Mr. Boos. Commissioner of police, city of Detroit. 



OROANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE dOMMERiCE 7 

The Chairman. For what period of time have you been police 
commissioner, sir? 

Mr. Boos. Just about 13 months ago I became the police com- 
missioner. 

The Chairman. And prior to that I think you were associated with 
the Federal Government? 

Mr. Boos. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. For quite a period of time ? 

Mr. Boos. Yes. 

The Chairman. At least, I can say that your services were of great 
benefit to the country. 

Now, Commissioner Boos, might I ask you whether you have pre- 
pared a statement? 

Mr. Boos. Yes; I have. 

The Chairman. Do you prefer just to make the statement first and 
then be questioned as to anything ? 

Mr. Boos. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right ; if you will just proceed, please. 

Mr. Boos. As police commissioner of one of the Nation's largest 
cities, I want to support the sentiments expressed by His Honor, 
Mayor Albert E. Cobo, when he said that he welcomes the Kefauver 
committee ; and I, too, want to assure the committee of every coopera- 
tion and assistance on the part of my department. 

I know what our police officers are up against in their efforts to 
stamp out organized gambling and racketeering. As local police 
officers they have no jurisdiction outside the city ; and, no matter how 
good a job they may do, they find themselves thwarted by organized 
racketeers who do their work beyond the jurisdiction of our officers. 

Furthermore, as a border city, our problem is somewhat compli- 
cated by the fact that we are faced not only with interstate racketeer- 
ing, but we have evidence that such racketeering goes beyond the 
borders of our country. 

As you know, our police department recently uncovered a gambling 
conspiracy case involving the use of 22 telephones in a suburban city. 
It was only because of the full cooperation of the Canadian authori- 
ties, the State police, and local agencies that this case was brouglit to 
light and revealed the intricate network of wire service and the need 
for cooperation at all levels of enforcement. I cite this case as one 
example of the complex problems created by State and National 
boundaries. I feel that with Federal laws this type of cooperation 
would be a continuing policy on both a national and international 
level. The boys who carry out their nefarious business would hesitate 
before they would violate Federal laws. 

Any national law which may be passed would be a very effective 
weapon in this fight against organized crime, and it is to that end 
that I want to express my hope and my thanks to this committee. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Commissioner, I wonder if you could tell us a 
few more details about the bookie raid of last December? As you no 
doubt know, this committee has been especially interested in race 
wire services. Can you tell us, if you know, where and how race 
wires were coming into the bookie joints that were raided last 
December ? 



8 0RGA]S1ZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Boos. In that connection it was coming- into an outlying mnnici- 
palit3^ The wire services were coming from Toledo to Canada and 
from Canada into Detroit. From an outlying city into Detroit. 

JNIr. Burling. Then we have not only an interstate but an interna- 
tional supplying of race wire information in this particular case ? 

Mr. Boos. That is true. 

Mr. Burling. Is it not true that what you found was that the service 
came by a circuitous route from Chicago to Toledo to some place else, 
over to Canada, and then it fanned out through the use of multiple 
telephones, Windsor to Detroit. 

Mr. Boos. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. I think, Mr. Chairman, that is of special and unusual 
interest to the committee. It is the first time we have an international 
wire service. 

The Chairman. Unquestionably it is. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Commissioner, can you tell us whether or not, 
in your opinion, there are slot machines operating in the city now? 

Mr. Boos. We do not have any slot machines operating in the city. 

Mr. Burling. In your opinion, if I wanted to go out into a bookie 
parlor and sit all afternoon playing the horses, could I find a place to 
do that today in Detroit ? 

Mr. Boos. No. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, the information which this committee 
has entirely substantiates the commissioner. 

Mr. Commissioner, that is all I have. 

Mr. Chairman, I would like the record to show if I may take the time 
to say that, while we have been investigating here, the commissioner 
and his staff have been of the utmost assistance to us. They assigned 
high-ranking officers to go out in the middle of the night and serve 
subpenas. They have given us cars, and they have even found a man 
who investigated a murder 20 years ago. We could not have had 
better help than we have had from the Detroit Police Department. 

The Chairman. That is highly gratifying. We certainly are in- 
debted to you, Commissioner. Thank you very much indeed. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. I would like to call for the appearance of Eussell 
Trilck. 

]Mr. Burling. I might say for the record, Mr. Chairman, he was 
duly served a subpena. 

The Chairman. Russell Trilck. 

Mr. Bltrling. Mr. Chairman, we have received information that 
Mr. Trilck seems to have disappeared, notwithstanding the fact he was 
served with a subpena. I suggest that we put him on the calendar for 
the first witness tomorrow and that we say, or rather that you state in 
]niblic, that if he is not here in response to the subpena tomorrow you 
will recommend to the full committee that he be cited for contempt 
of the Senate. 

The Chairman. That will be so ordered. This witness or any 
witness who is summoned to appear and who fails in attendance, the 
subcommittee must consider it the necessity of a citation. Therefore 
the order will be that the name of this witness will be called promptly 
in the morning; and, unless he responds, consideration will be given 
at once to recommend a citation for contempt. 

The next witness. 



ORGAISPIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 9 

Mr. Burling. The next witness is John Gaspar. 

Mr. Chairman, I have received information that 

The Chairman. Will you be sworn? 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this committee will 
be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 
Mr. Caspar. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN GASPAR, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. What is your full name ? 

Mr. Caspar, John Gaspar. 

The Chairman. Will you give us your address ? 

Mr. Caspar, Do you mean my business address? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Caspar. 243 West Larned. 

The Chairman. And your residence ? 

Mr, Caspar, 8527 Westville, 

Mr. Burling. What is your business or occupation ? 

Mr. Caspar. Printing ; I am a printer. 

Mr. Burling. Please do not volunteer any information. Follow 
my questions that I ask and we will get along fine. I show you a 
booklet entitled "American Italian Delegates First" — Mr. Chairman,. 
I emphasize the word "First" — "First Annual Dance, Saturday, No- 
vember 12, 1949." Again, I emphasize the date for a reason I will 
state in a moment. 

Mr. Gaspar, did you print this book ? 

Mr. Caspar. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, maj^ I offer it in evidence as exhibit 
No. 1? 

The Chairman. It will be so admitted and marked. 

(The document identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No, 1, and is on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Burling. May I make a very brief statement, Mr. Chairman, 
as to why I oiler this book ? 

This book is the program of the American Italian Delegates as 
they were constituted in 1949. I am happy to say that since then 
the organization has been entirely reconstituted and has a new con- 
stitution and new officers. It is now a respectable charitable organi- 
zation and a philanthropic organization of American Italians. I hope 
to be able to call before the committee tomorrow the president of 
the organization, who will tell of some of the present good work the 
organization is cloing. I think we should do that in order to avoid 
the idea that there is any stigma whatsoever attached to the organi- 
zation as it is today. 

On the other hand, this book in 1949, in its old days, is the most 
extraordinar}^ catalog of hoodlums and criminals printed or gathered 
together in any one booklet publicly distributed that I know. Vir- 
tually every person, every hoodlum, whose name will be referred to 
in these hearings can be found here or can be found here either as 
an officer or as an advertisement of a company. 

I do not, of course, mean to say that everybody who advertises in 
here is a hoodlum. I do mean that every big-shot hoodlum in the 
Detroit area can be found here either under a corporate name or 
in his own name. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. 



10 ORGAX'IZEID CRIME m' IXTERSTATE COMlVIERiCE 

The Chairman. All right. Thank you, Mr. Gaspar. 
(Witness excused.) 
The Chairman. Anthony D'Anna. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this committee will 
be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 
Mr. D'Anna. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF ANTHONY J. D'ANNA, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Now, your full name is what ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Anthony J. D'Anna. 

The Chairman. And your address? 

Mr. D'Anna. 712 Berkshire. 

The Chairman. And how long have you lived at that address ? 

Mr. D'Anna. About 8 or 9 months. 

The Chairman. And prior to that, where did you live? 

Mr. D'Anna. For the past — I believe for the past 40 years or 42 
years, I lived in Wyandotte. 

The Chairman. For the past 40 or 42 years you lived in Wyandotte ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Somewhere around there. 

The Chairman. Now, I would like to ask you at the outset to please 
keep your voice up and talk promptly and distinctly and slowly so 
that all may hear you. 

Now, Counsel, will you proceed, please? 

Mr. Burling. Mr. D'Anna, you have a very long story which I 
have been over with you in great detail. In order to expedite the 
hearing, I wall ask you if you will just answer the questions as put 
to you and not volunteer something else. At the end of the ques- 
tioning, if you feel that you want to say something else to the com- 
mittee, you will be given a full opportunity to do that, but if you will, 
please, just answer the questions "Yes" or "No," if you can. 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Is it correct that you were born in Sicily in December 
1900 ? 

Mr. D'Anna. The 10th of December; yes. 

Mr. Burling. That is what I mean. It is correct that you were 
born in Sicily in 1900 ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Now, in 1905, your father came to America and set- 
tled in Wyandotte ; is that right? 

Mr. D'Anna. The exact date, I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. About there? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And the reason that he came to Wyandotte was that 
some of your mother's brothers had already come here and settled ; is 
that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, my father 

Mr. Burling. Is that right? 

Mr. D'Anna. I imagine that is probably true. They couldn't make 
a living over there and they came here. 

Mr. Burling. Tliank you. Please just try to answer the question. 
Your mother's brothers' name was Gionnola; is that right? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 



ORGANIZEiD CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERlCE; H 

]Mr. Burling. And after a while your mother came to the United 
States and joined your father with four children, right? 

Mr. D'Anna. Right. 

Mr. Burling. You are the eldest ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. And she had four more children born in Wyandotte; 
is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Right. 

Mr. Burling. And you lived in Wyandotte ever since then, is that 
correct ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. You were naturalized in 1931 ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I believe that is right, 

Mr. Burling. And you went to school until about 1916, when you 
had to leave school upon the death of your mother? 

Mr. D'Anna. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. And then the four eldest children left school; the 
two boys to go to work and the two girls to take care of the younger 
children ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. And is it true that about 1917 or 1918, your father 
and your uncle, Sam Gionnola, were walking up the steps of your 
Uncle Sam's house and someone shot your father dead? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And you believe that that shot was intended for your 
Uncle Sam ; is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That's what everybody said. I was a young boy. 
I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. And John Vitalli was arrested for this murder, is 
that right? 

Mr. D'Anna. Right. 

Mr. Burling. And he, too, was murdered thereafter; is that 
right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. AYell, I learned that he was murdered later on. 

Mr. Burling. Yes. He ended up shot dead. 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling, Did you shoot him ? 

Mr. D'Anna, No. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, shortly after that, your Uncle Sam 
was murdered ; is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes ; he was murdered. 

Mr. Burling. And, in addition, your Uncle Tony Gionnola was 
murdered ; is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. My uncle was murdered first. 

Mr. Burling. I see. But at any rate, your father and your Uncle 
Sam and your Uncle Tony were all murdered by somebody. It was 
the Vitalli-Gionnola feud, wasn't it ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I couldn't answer that, honestly, because I was too 
young and I didn't know, 

Mr. Burling. You were 19 at the time ? 

Mr, D'Anna, When my father was killed, I was 18, I believe. 

Mr. Burling. I see. But you never knew that it was referred to in 
the papers and by people down there, generally, as the Vitalli-Gion- 
nola feud ? 



12 ORGAiVIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COlMMERCEi 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, it was the Italian feud. 

Mr. Burling. It was called the Vitalli-Gionnola feud, wasn't it? 

Mr. D'Anna. I can only say what I heard at the time. 

Mr. Burling. Didn't you hear that? 

Mr. D'Anna. I heard Vitallis and Gionnolas and other Italians 
there. The Italian people, I heard. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. Please try to answer my questions "Yes" or "No," 
if you can. 

iSTotwithstanding all these murders, you never heard anybody give 
any explanation of any of them, did you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. What do you mean by "any explanation" ? 

Mr. Burling. Did anybody ever tell you what he thought the mur- 
ders were about ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, all I could get was jealousy. 

Mr. Burling. Jealousy over wluit? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know. I don't know what it was about. 

Mr. Burling. What did you think about it when your father was 
murdered? What passed through your mind? 

Mr. D'Anna. The responsibility of having seven children on my 
shoulders. 

Mr. Burling. No. I mean, what thoughts about the murder of 
your father ? Who did you think killed him and why ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I know he was innocent. M37 father was innocent. 
He worked in the Alkali, and he got killed. 

The Chairman. Was John Vitalli ever brought to trial? 

Mr. D'Anna. No ; he wasn't. He was arrested but wasn't brought 
to trial. 

Mr, Burling. Was he murdered before he could be tried? 

Tlie Chairman. How long after your father's murder was he killed ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Pardon me, could I ask your name? What is your 
name ? 

The Chairman. O'Conor — Senator O'Conor. 

Mr. D'xVnna. I am happy to know you. Senator. I don't remember 
those dates when 

The Chairman. Do you know how long a period of time there was 
intervening between your father's murder and the time when Vitalli 
was murdered ? You were 18 or 19 years of age, were you ? . 

Mr. D'Anna. I just don't know exactly. Senator. There was some 
time that passed there. 

The Chairman. Approximately, tell us about how long. 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I don't know. It might have been a year or 
2 years later. 

The Chairman. He was not brought to trial in the meantime? 

Mr. D'Anna. No ; he wasn't. 

The Chairman. All right, go ahead, Counsel. 

Mr. Burling. Now, did you ever discuss with anyone at all why 
your father and your two uncles were shot dead? The answer is 
"Yes" or "No." 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I can't just answer "Yes" or "No." I must be 
ti'uthful with myself and with the Senator and the committee. 

Mr. Burling. You did not talk to anyone about why your father 
and two uncles were shot? 

Mr. D'Anna. What was the question? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 13 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever talk to anybody about why they were 
shot? 

Mr. D'Anna. I just asked my uncle, the other one that is left. 

Mr. Burling. Vito is the only person you ever asked why his two 
brothers and your father were shot? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is ri^ht. 

Mr. Burling. What did Uncle Vito tell you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. He did sav to me, "Your dad did not deserve to be 
shot." 

Mr. Burling. But his brothers — his two brothers did deserve to be 
shot ? 

Mr. D'Anna. His uncle, his brother — the jealousy amongst Italian 
people. 

Mr. Burling. Can you not explain what the jealousy was about? 

Mr. D'Anna. He wouldn't tell. That is all I could get from him. 
That is all I know from him — that is all he would say. 

Mr. Burling. When did you first hear of an organization called 
the Mafia ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I don't know when I heard that name. I have 
heard the name in the Italian homes. The word "Mafia" means, 
from what I could gather — is a tough guy, roughneck. 

Mr. Burling. Just a minute. Did you not tell me in our office, up 
on the ninth floor, that you never heard the word "Mafia," that you 
thought the word was "mafioso"? 

Mr. D'Anna. "Mafia" or "mafioso" means the same thing. 

Mr. Burling. One is a noun and one is an adjective. I am talking 
about a noun — the Mafia. When did you first hear of that ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know. I have heard it. You sometimes 
speak to Italians and the word "Mafia" or "mafioso" comes up. 

Mr. Burling. Let us not confuse the issue. You told me upstairs, 
Mr. D'Anna, that you did not know the word "Mafia," that you 
thought it was "mafioso," an adjective meaning tough. I am not 
talking about an adjective meaning "tough." I am talking about a 
noun referring to a Sicilian organization. When did vou first hear 
ofit? ^ 

Mr. D'Anna. Mr. Burling, you said something to me about the 
adjective and I told you that I didn't exactly understand the differ- 
ence because 

Mr. Buri.ing. I am not talking about the adjective. 

Mr. D'Anna. I am not an attorney. I didn't have an opportunity 
to get a good education. If I make a mistake in regards to the true 
interpretation, I don't understand the true 

Mr. Burling. You do not know the difference between the ad- 
jective "mafioso," and the noun referring to the Sicilian organiza- 
tion, the Mafia? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. 

Mr. Burling. You were born in Sicily and you never heard of the 
Mafia? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, I was born in Sicily. I left there — I w^as a boy of 
5 years old. How did you hear these things at 5 years old? Who is 
going to talk — I can't understand your question. 

68958 — 51 — pt. 9 2 



14 ORGANIZEID CRIME IX IJfTERSTATE COMMERCE. 

Mr. Burling. Your father and yoiiv two uncles are murdered in a 
typical gang fashion and you never heard of the Mafia — is that your 
statement ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I heard in the late years — I have heard the name 
"Mafia" and "mafioso." My interpretation is that in the Italian home, 
the expression "mafia" or "mafioso" means tough guy, rough guy — 
oh, you are a tough guy. 

Mr. BmLiNG. You never heard of an organization called the Mafia ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You believe such an organization exists? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I don't know. I can't believe — I don't know if 
things like that exist. You read stories, you read papers about Italy 
and about the different places. You heard of a lot of things, but I 
don't know — I can't say it exists or don't exist, because I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. You never heard of it, is that right? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I heard the name but I don't know what the 
meaning or the interpretation of the thing is. 

Mr. Burling. Is it not the fact that you are the Detroit headquarters 
of the Mafia ? "Yes" or "No," sir. 

Mr. D'Anna. No, sir, I don't know a thing about what you are 
talking about. 

Mr. Burling. Now, you never discussed with anyone — your uncle or 
anybody else or any friends when you were 18 or 19 years old, when 
your two uncles and your father were murdered — that there was a 
possibility that those were Mafia killings ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. Uncle said it was jealousy. 

Mr. Burling. You do not know what the jealousy was about? 

Mr. D'Anna. No, I don't. 

Mr. Burling. You do not understand what I mean when those were 
Mafia slayings, except that a tough guy did the murdering; is that 
right ? 

Mr, D'Anna. If they did, I don't know; I can't say because, Mr. 
Burling, I was a young boy. 

Mr. Burling. You were old enough to know" your own father had 
been murdered in cold blood and your two uncles had been nuirdered 
in cold blood, were you not ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. BmLiNG. You do not know that those were Mafia killings, is 
that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know, I don't know. I had enough work 
taking care of seven little brothers and sisters. 

Mr. Burling. You do not know? Please do not volunteer. You 
will be given a chance to make a statement afterward. Now, shortly 
after these murders, you yourself went to jail in connection with a 
murder? 

Mr. D'Anna, Yes, I did. 

Mr. Burling, That was for attempted bribery of a witness to 
another nuirder, is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is right, 

Mr. Burling. Is this correct : Two men were charged with a murder 
and one of tlieir wives asked you to go to see two witnesses and gave 
you $;5()0 to give the witnesses, is that right? 

Ml-. D'Anna. Well, I was asked — - 

Mr. Burling. Is that correct ? 



OROANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 15 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, it isn't just exactly correct. 

Mr. Burling. Then you state it correctly. 

Mr. D'Anna. First, this is some time ago. This is almost 30 years 
ago. I was given some money and asked if I could get an attorney — 
counsel or somebody for them. 

Mr. Burling. You were asked what ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I was asked if I could get an attorney for these 
people. 

Mr. Burling. For who? 

Mr. D'Anna. For one of the men that was arrested. 

Mr. Burling. That is not what you told me in my office, is it? Is 
that what j^ou told me in my office ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, I told you that I was given some money — I was 
given some money to help in this thing. 

Mr. Burling. Is it not a fact, Mr. D'Anna, you told me you were 
given the money to give the witnesses ? Two people saw the murder 
and you were given the money to give to them ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, but 

Mr. Burling. Please answer the question and listen to it. Will you 
answer my question, sir ? 

Tlie Chairman. The question is very clear, Mr. D'Anna. Just 
answer "Yes'' or "No." Then after answering it, you may make a 
statement in explanation. The question is very clear. 

Mr. D'Anna. I asked some question to this gentleman when I was 
called. This is something that happened 28 or 30 years ago. 

The Chairman. The question is directed to what happened just a 
few days ago, not 28 years ago, as to what you told Mr. Burling in 
this connection. 

Mr. Burling. Did you or did you not tell me that the wife of one 
of the two defendants in this murder case gave you $300 to give to 
the witnesses to the murder ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Look, I was given $300 

Mr. Burling. Did you tell me that ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I think I said something to that effect, yes. 

Mr. Burling. Thank you. 

Mr. D'Anna. As I say here, my memory doesn't put me up to date 
as to what happened exactly 30 years ago. 

Mr. Burling. You only have to remember what you told me last 
week. 

All right, these witnesses would not accept the money ; is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. 

Mr. Burling. It is not right? 

Mr. D'Anna. They did not accept the money. 

Mr. Burling. Instead they reported you to the police and you were 
charged with attempted bribery and sentenced to 5 months in the 
workhouse ; is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes; and I paid the debt to society and I have tried 
ever since. 

Mr. Burling. That is the last time you served time; is that cor- 
rect ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling. You liave been arrested since then twice for felony 
charges; is that right? 



16 ORGAN'IZE'D CRIME IK INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. D'AxxA. I have been arrested t^Yice? 

Mr. Burling. Is that not so '( 

Mr. D'AxNA. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. Were you arrested on a prohibition charge? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. Well, in order to avoid any injustice, I suggest that 
we at this time mark this in evidence. 

The Chairman. Might I suggest. Counsel, that if you have the 
record, you state to the witness what the record discloses as to the 
date and the charge, and ask him whether or not that is correct. 

Mr. Burling. Yes. 

Mr. Chairman, the record of the Detroit Police Department shows 
that the witness was arrested on October 19, 1022, the charge being 
violation of prohibition, disposition not given; is that correct? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember. 

The Chairman. You do not remember? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. 

Mr. Burling. The second one is July 2, 1924, armed robbery, dis- 
position—discharged. 

Mr. D'Anna. What? I was armed? 

The Chairman. The charge was armed robbery. Now. the ques- 
tion is. Was that charge preferred against you? Were you arrested 
on that charge? 

Mr. D'Anna. When was this? 

Mr. Burling. 1924. 

The Chairman. Do you deny that that record and those charges 
apply to you? 

Mr. D'Anna. That on^e there — if I was arrested, it could be 
possible I might have been picked up and charged with that, but I 
don't know. 

The Chairman. Do you want to tell us you do not remember 
whether you were arrested or not? 

]\Ir. D'Anna. I am trying to recollect. 

The Chairman. You just try to recall whether you were arrested or 
not. Just take a minute or two and recall, and then state whether you 
were arrested first of all. Tell us "Yes" or "No." 

Mr. D'Anna. It seems to me that I was arrested once more, but I 
don't know of any other time. 

The Chairman. For wiiat were you arrested? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know. 

The Chairman. You do not remember that? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. 

The Chairman. When were you arrested? 

Mr. D'Anna. It seems at one time I was going to a ball game 

The Chairman. Don't give us the facts now, just what was the 
charge ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know if there was a charge against me or not. 

The Chairman. How long were you locked up or what came of that ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I believe, if I remember right, they let me go the 
next morning. 

The Chairman. Is that as far as you can remember? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

The Chairman. Were you arrested any other time? 



ORGANIZEiD CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 17 

Mr. D'Anna. Not that I remember. 

The Chairman. You do not remember. 

Mr. D'Anna. No. 

Mr. Burling. Is the photograph which I now show you an early 
photograph of you, Mr. D'Anna? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. May I introduce the photograph and attached police 
record as exhibit No. 2 ? 

(The document identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 2 and is on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Burling. Not counting the time you spent in the house of cor- 
rection, is it correct, after you left school you first worked in an alkali 
company and then in the fruit business? 

Mr. IVAnna. Yes. 

Mr. Blt^ling. That takes us up to 1925, and then you became a 
bootlegger, did you not? 

Mr. D'Anna. I sold sugar. 

Mr. Burling. You sold liquor, too, didn't you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. 

Mr. Burling. Did you not? 

Mr. D'Anna. I might have bought a bottle of liquor 

Mr. Burling. I am not asking if you bought a bottle of liquor, but 
I am asking you if you did not sell a good many bottles of liquor? 
Do you deny it? 

Mr. D'Anna. I said I was not a bootlegger. 

Mr. Burling. To the contrary, you were in the sugar business ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Most of your customers were bootleggers, were they 
not? 

Mr. D'Anna. Look, I sold sugar like anybody else. 

Mr. Burling. You deny that most of your customers were boot- 
leggers ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I sold sugar. 

Mr. Burling. Will you please answer my questions ? Do you deny 
that most of your customers were bootleggers ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I sold sugar and didn't — it didn't make any differ- 
ence to me what they were. 

Mr. Burling. Will you answer my question, sir? Did you not 
know that most of your customers were bootleggers ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Senator O'Conor 

The Chairman. We can move along very promptly if you will just 
confine yourself to the question, and if you know, say so. There is no 
other remarks called for. Just answer the question. 

Mr. D'Anna. I imagine some of them were. I didn't ask anybody. 

The Chairman. The question is. Did you not know that most of 
your customers were bootleggers ? Did you know whether they were 
or were not, and, if so, what is the fact? 

Mr. D'Anna. I can only answer that in that way, some of them 
must have been bootleggers. 

The Chairman. Some of them must have been. 

Mr. D'Anna. Right. Some of them — they bought sugar like every- 
body else. 



18 ORGAN'IZEiD CHIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 

Mr. Burling. I am not going to tax your memory by going back 
25 years, but will ask you to go back to last week. Did you not tell 
me that most of your customers were bootleggers ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I can only answer the same way. Some of them 
might have been bootleggers. 

INIr. Burling. Did you not tell me, perhaps you were making it up, 
but did you not tell me that most of your customers were bootleggers? 

Mr. D'Anna. If that is what I told you, that is what I must have 
told you. 

Mr. Burling. Did you tell me, sir? You can remember back 1 
week, can you not? 

Mr. D'Anna. If you have it on paper, then I don't doubt your word. 

Mr. Burling. I am frankly not interested whether you doubt my 
word or not. Did you tell me — answer the question — did you tell me 
last week that most of your customers were bootleggers? 

Mr. D'Anna. I believe I told you that some of these customers must 
have been bootleggers. 

Mr. Burling. Do you deny it for the record ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No, I don't deny it. 

Mr. Burling. I will state for the record that my recollection of the 
statement of the witness to me and to other members of the staff was 
that most of his customers were bootleggers and he knew it. Do you 
deny my statement? 

Mr. D'Anna. I can only ansAver it in that way 

Mr. Burling. Do you deny my statement ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I can only answei' 

Mr. Burling. Do you deny my statement that most of your cus- 
tomei's were bootleggers ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I can only state that some of those customers were 
bootleggers. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that the chairman 

The CiiAiRarAN. It is very clear and very simple, Mr. D'Anna. 
Counsel asks whether you did not state to him that most of your cus- 
tomers were bootleggers and that you made that statement last week. 

Mr. D'Anna. Your Honor, I may have said that most of them 
were bootleggers. 

The Chairman. Then you do not deny it ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't deny that I said that some of them were boot- 
leggers, but to what extent I don't know. I wasn't asking everybody 
what they were going to do with it. Again, I say. Your Honor, that 
I had a large responsibility of children to support. 

Mr. BuRf.iNG. Is it not the fact that you were in partnership with 
Joe Massei ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. sir. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever have any business dealings with Joe 
Massei ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. sir, not that I remember. 

Mr. Burling. I might stnte at this ])oint, for the record, Mr. Chair- 
man, that the committee has been endeaAoring for some weeks to 
serve notice on Joe Massei, who resides in Miami, Fla., and has a large 
house and business there. He is obviously hiding from the processors 
of this committee. 

The Chairman. Do you know Joe Massei? 

Mr, D'Anna. Yes, he was born and raised in my town. 



ORGAN'IZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 19 

Mr. Burling. I show you a photograph and ask you if that is Joe 
Massei ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, this is Joe. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I ask permission to place in the rec- 
ord, a photograph of Joe Massei, since he is not here to testify for 
himself, together with his Detroit Police Department criminal record. 

The Chairman. That w^ill be marked as the next exhibit and put 
into evidence. 

(The document identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 3, and appears in the appendix on p. 2G5.) 

Mr. Burling. You deny, do you, that you ever had any business 
dealings with Massei ? 

Mr, D'Anna. I can't remember. 

Mv. Burling. You can't remember? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. 

ISIr. Burling, Was he a bootlegger in Wyandotte between 1925 and 
1931? 

Mr. D'Anna, I don't know. I don't care to answer anything about 
Joe ISIassei because that's not my business. 

Mr, Burling, You mean you refuse to answer ? 

Mr, D'Anna, It's not my business to answer, 

Mr, Burling. Did you ever hear that he had the reputation of being 
a bootlegger ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I read the papers like everybody else. 

Mr. Burling. I am going back to the years '25 to '31, In those 
years, did you know that he was a bootlegger ? 

Mr, D'Anna, Senator — I don't care to answer that question about 
Joe Massei because it's none of my business. 

The Chairman. The question is whether or not 3'ou knew it, you 
knew about whether he Avas. 

Mr. D'Anna. Senator, it's none of my business. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. D'Anna, before you go any further, I will tell 
you why I ask tliat question : At least one witness who will appear 
before this committee is going to testify that you had the universal 
reputation of being — 3^011 and Massei being in partnership and the 
kingpins of the bootlegging business in Wyandotte. So I w\ant to 
know what you know about Massei's business. 

Mr. D'Anna. They can say what they want. Everybody is privi- 
leged to say what they want to, but I don't want to say anything about 
Joe Massei because it's none of my business, 

Mr, Burling, What was his reputation in 1925 in Wyandotte? 

Mr, D'Anna, I refuse to comment on other people's reputations. 
It is none of my business, I am not an attorney. 

The Chairman. We are interested in what you know as to whether 
you knew that he was engaged in that operation. 

Mr. D'Anna. Your Honor, that is not for me to say. The police 
department 

The Chair^ian. It is for us to demand of you that you tell us what 
you know. That is what we are here for. That is what we want to 
know. 

Mr. D'Anna. Your Honor, again I say my education is limited 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr, D'Anna. I have been through the school of hard knocks, and 
I am thankful to God Almighty and my country 



20 ORGAX'IZEID CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. All right, we have heard that. 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't have the education that would lead me to 
feel whether I have the right to answer that question, but honestly, 
I feel that it is not my business to say anything about Joe Massei 
because his life has been an open book. 

The Chairmax. Yes. Well, just stop right there. The question is, 
Do you. know whether he was, not as to what you know, but do you 
know what his reputation was as to whether he was so engaged ? 

]\rr. D'Anna. Your Honor, I went to school with Joe at St. Patrick's 
School, and I always felt that he was a fine man. He comes from a 
fine family. Now, what his reputation is, please don't ask me to say 
anything because I don't care to say anything about Joe Massei. 

Mr. Burling. You prefer to leave the record indicating you don't 
care to tell this subcommittee of the committee of the United States 
Senate wliat you know about Joe Massei's reputation, so we'll go on. 

Mr. D'Anna. It is none of my business. It is not my business. 

The Chairman. Next question. 

Mr. Burling. I want you to address your memory to the year 1931. 
At that time, you didn't know anything about the automobile busi- 
ness, did you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. 

Mr. Burling. You had never been in it ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. 

Mr. Bltrling. But you decided you would like to obtain a Ford 
agency in Wyandotte ; is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I decided that I would like to get in the auto- 
mobile business if it is possible. 

Mr. Burling. You didn't care whether it was Ford or Chevrolet? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, I felt if I could get in the automobile business, 
I thought would maybe be a good venture. 

Mr. Burling. Specifically, you wanted the Ford agencv in Wyan- 
dotte ; isn't that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, that's the agency that I tried to get. 

Mr. Burling. Now, isn't this the fact; that you spoke to a man 
you knew named Walter Hancock and asked him if he would arrange 
an introduction with Mr. Bennett ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And how soon after that did he arrange an intro- 
duction to Mr. Bennett ? 

]\Tr. D'Anna. Well, can I answer the question as I feel I did 

Mr. Burling. Answer the question of time. How long after you 
spoke to Hancock, did Hancock arrange a meeting with Bennett? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Burling. Was it a week, 6 weeks ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember. I just don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. Would you agree that it was about 6 weeks ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I just don't remember . 

Mr. Burling. You don't deny it anyhow? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. I asked Mr. Hancock if he knew 

Mr. BuRiJNG. You don't deny it? 

The Chairman. If he knew what? 

Mr. D'Anna. If he knew someone out to the Ford plant. 

Mr. Burling. You didn't specify Mr. Bennett? 



ORGANIZEiD ORIME IN INTERSTATE ClOMMERlCE 21 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't think I specified him in particular. I don't 
remember but I asked him if he knew somebody out there. 

Mr. Burling. But you do not remember who you spoke to about it? 

Mr. D'xVnna. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. "\Aniere did the conversation take place? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember. I might have met him on the liigh- 
way. I might have met him on the highway while driving. 

Mr. BuKLiNG. You might have, but what is your best recollection ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I just — I just can't reitiember where the conversation 
took place. Now, I might have met him on the highway and 

Mr. Burling. All right. You don't remember. 

Mr. D'Anna. That is it. 

Mr. Burling. Can you fix the date of this conversation ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I can't. 

Mr. Burling. Does it refresh your recollection if I tell you it was 
shortly after the murder of Chester Lamarr? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't think so. I think that Mr. Lamarr was alive. 

Mr. Burling. You do ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. What did Mr. Hancock do at the time? 

Mr. D'Anna. He was — if I remember right, I believe he was a police 
officer. 

Mr. Burling. What rank ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I always thought he was chief at River Rouge. 

Mr. Burling. The town of River Rouge ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is right. 

]Mr. Burling. How did you come to meet him in the first place? 

Mr. D'Anna. I lived in Wyandotte. We used to go through River 
Rouge. 

Mr. Burling. You met him traveling through River Rouge ; is that 
right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That's right, I imagine. 

Mr. Burling. When would you say you first met him ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. What is your best recollection ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Gee, I don't knoAv. That was so long ago. 

Mr. Burling. You have been thinking about it a good deal in the 
past week or 10 days, haven't you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know, 

Mr. Burling. Haven't you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know whether — I don't know. I have been 
thinking of this whole general problem here, but I don't know when 
I met him. Can any man remember 

Mr. Burling. Excuse me. You do not remember when vou met 
Mr. Hancock ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. But at any rate, you met him because you had to 
drive through River Rouge ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I drove through River Rouge to Detroit. 

Mr. Burling. And that is how you came to meet him ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I imagine it must have been through some way in 
there. I just can't — ■ — 

Mr. Burling. Please don't imagine, Mr. D'Anna. Tell us the 
fact. 



22 ORGAXIZE'D CRIME IX INTERSTATE C'OMMERiCE: 

Mr. D'Anna. I can't, because this is a long time ago. I don't 
know. 

The Chairman. Just stop right there then. 

Next question. 

Mr. Burling. You told me, did you not, that you met him in 
connection with driving through River Rouge, because he was a police- 
man ? That is what you said to me in my office, isn't it ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, maybe that's how I met him. 

Mr. Burling. Isn't that what you said, Mr. D'Anna ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I think that I said to you I met him 

Mr. Burling. You did say that to me, sir, and isn't it entirely un- 
true? 

Mr. D'Anna. That I did meet him that way? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. Isn't it untrue ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I don't know of any other way that I could 
have met the man. 

Mr. Burling. Haven't a^ou known him since you were a child ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, yes. There is a possibility that I have known 
the man since I was a boy. 

Mr. Burling. I am not asking for the possibility. Don't you know 
him since before you were 14 years old ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I might have. 

Mr. Burling. You might have, but didn't you? 

Mr. D'Anna. I might have. I just can't remember everything 
in life about how many people do I know. 

Mr. Burling. Excuse me. Please don't argue. Just answer the 
question and we will get along faster. 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, but you ask me a question that I don't know. 
I might have met the man 

The Chairman. If you don't know, just say so, and stop there. 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know, Senator. 

The Chairman. Mr. Halley ? 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Chairman, I have observed the questioning of 
many hundreds of witnesses before the committee. Now, I do not 
think I have seen a witness so evasive in his answers, so apt to dodge a 
question, and apparently attempting to avoid telling the truth. I ask 
the chaii'man to admonish this witness to answer the questions more 
forthrightly and more honestly. 

The Chairman. I do require the witness to answer the question 
directly, and to limit himself to the matters which are under inquiry. 
Listen to the question, and answer, and give a truthful and direct 
answer. 

As counsel indicated at the outset, you will be given an opportunity 
later to make any other statement you wish so that you will be cut off 
from saying nothing. But we want you, at this time, to limit your- 
self to the questions that are asked, and to answer them. 

Mr. D'Anna. Thank yon, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Now, at the time lliat you asked Mr. Hancock to 
arrange an appointment with somebody at the Ford ]:)lant, did you 
have any capital to invest in the automobile agency business? 

Mr. D'Anna. Not very much. 

Mr. Burling. Well, how much ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember that. I don't know what I had. 

Mr. Burling. One hundred, a thousand, five thousand? 



ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERlCE, 23 

Mr. D'Anna. The only way that I can answer that, Senator 

Mr. Burling. Wliat is your best estimate? 

Mr. D'Anna. Is that when I did get into the automobile business, 
I borrowed some money. 

Mr. Burling. So you didn't have any capital ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I must have had somewhere around $3,000, $2,500. 

Mr. Burling. And no experience in the automobile business. At 
any rate, is it not the fact that Chief Hancock called you up and told 
you to come into his office and that he would take you to see Bennett ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember if that is the way it was arranged. 

Mr. Burling. But you don't deny it ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't deny that I did meet Mr. Bennett. 

Mr. Burling. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. D'Anna. But I don't remember if that is the way it happened. 

Mr, Burling. Mr. Chairman, it is known here in Detroit, but I think 
the record ought to indicate this man is intelligent enough to have 
an income in the neighborhood of $60,000 ; to have a half interest in a 
company that hauls away all Ford motor cars from the Ford plants ; to 
be a director of a bank. I think he is also intelligent enough to answer 
the questions put to him. 

The Chairman. I think that comment is in order. And, again I 
must say to the witness that you will be required to answer the ques- 
tions. They are questions which can be clearly understood by a man of 
your intelligence, and you have indicated very clearly that you know 
what is wanted and what the questions are addressed to. So, we must 
expect of you and we demand of you that you answer the questions 
directly. 

Counsel, would you put the next question to him. 

Mr. Burling. You clo not deny — do you ? — that Hancock telephoned 
you and told you to come into his office in the Police headquarters in 
Kiver Rouge and that he would take you by car to Bennett's office in 
the plant ? 

Mr. D'Anna (no response). 

The Chairman. Is that the fact? 

Mr. D'Anna. Senator, I don't remember him calling me, but I re- 
member going out to see Mv. Bennett with Mr. Hancock. Now, I don't 
remember if it was a telephone call or if I met him or how it happened. 
That's why I say you say to me I got to answer "Yes" or "No," but ■ 

Mr. Burling. You know whether you remember. If you don't re- 
member, say so. 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember if that's just the way it happened, 
but I remember going out to meet him. 

Mr. Burling. That is why I am asking you the questions as I am. 
If you don't remember, you can't deny it ; can you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. Very good. Now, do j^ou or do you not remember 
that you were told that Bennett wanted to see you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. He wanted to see me ? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember that ; no. 

Mr. Burling. You don't deny it though ; do you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That he wanted to see me? 

Mr. Burling. That he said so, and you were told so. 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember that. 



24 ORGAIS^ZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COlMMERiCEi 

Mr. Burling. You don't denv it though; do j^ou? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, look ' 

Mr. Btjrlixg. Do you deny it or do you not deny it ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I don't kno^Y if Mr. Bennett wanted to see 
me 

Mr. Burling. Excuse me. I said : Were you told. You know 
whether or not you remember that you were told "Bennett wants to 
see you." 

Mr. D'Anna. By whom? 

Mr. Burling. Hancock. 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember that at all. 

]\Ir. Burling. I asked you : Do you deny it, sir ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Mr. Burling, you asked me to say "Yes" or "No." and 
look 

Mr. Burling. No ; I asked you : Do you deny it ? 

Mr. Chairman, the reason for this long harangue is that we will 
introduce testimony hereafter that Bennett sent for this witness, and 
I think the record should show whether or not the witness denies the 
testimony; whether there is a contradiction or whether he says he just 
can't remember. 

The Chairman. Is it or is it not a fact that Bennett sent for you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Senator, the man that can tell you the truth about 
that is the man that called me. I don't remember it. 

The Chairman. Wliat do you know about it ? That's what we are 
interested in now. We can only take one at a time. What do you 
know ? 

Mr. D'Anna. All I know is that I asked Mr. Hancock if he knew 
somebody out to Ford's, and he told me he knew Mr. Bennett, because 
I was interested in trying to get the Ford franchise if it was pos- 
sible. But whether Mr. Bennett wanted to see me or not, that wasn't 
told to me by Mr. Bennett, because I didn't know him. 

Mr. Burling. I am not asking you whether Mr. Bennett told you. I 
am asking you whether Mr. Hiincock told you "Bennett wants you." 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Burling. But you do not deny that that is what happened? 

Mr. D'Anna. That he wanted to see me? 

Mr. Burling. You were told that. You are perefectly intelligent 
enought to understand what I am saying. 

Mr. D'Anna. I cannot honestly before this court or this committee, 
and as God is my judge, tell you that that is what was told me, because 
I don't remember that. 

Mr. Burling. That is not the question. You are plenty intelli- 
gent enough to know it. The question is : Can you before this com- 
mittee and before God say that you were not told by Hancock : "Ben- 
nett wants to see you"? 

Mr. D'Anna. I can't honestly say that that is what was told to me 
because I don't remember that. 

_ Mr. Burling. But you can't honestly say tliat that did not happen 
either; can you? 

_Mr. D'Anna. That is up to Mr. Hancock to say, if it was told to 
him. He is the only one that can say that. I couldn't say it because 
I didn't know JNIr. Bennett at the time. 

Mr. Burling. The question is: Wliat did Mr. Hancock say to you? 
Let us not fence around any longer. I am not asking you whether 



ORG-ANIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE dOMMERCE 25 

you remember. I am asking you whether you will testify under oath 
that Hancock did not tell you "Bennett wants to see you." 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. You do not testify under oath that that did not 
happen ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember. Why should I say ? 

The Chairman. That is clear now. 

Next question. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, you went with Hancock to Bemiett's 
office ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Right. 

Mr. Burling. On the way to Bennett's office you had a discussion 
with Hancock about Chester Lamarr's murder; didn't you? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. I don't know 

Mr. Burling. You deny it? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. Do you deny it? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, because I don't know if we tal'ked about Chester 
Lamarr. We could have talked about a lot of things. 

Mr. Burling. You deny it because you don't know; is that your 
position ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. You don't remember; so you deny it? 

Mr. D'Anna. That's right. 1 don't remember that. 

Mr. Burling. I didn't ask you you whether you remember it. I 
asked you whether you can testify under oath that it did not happen. 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember. I don't remember what — the only 
thing I can remember is talking to Mr. Hancock that I was interested 
in obtaining a franchise, if it was possible, in Wyandotte. 

Mr. Burling. I have not examined many witnesses for this com- 
mittee, Mr. Chairman ; but I have examined a great many witnesses 
in my professional life. I have insufficient skill to know how to get 
this witness to answer a question which I am sure he understands. 
The only thing I think we can do is to let the record speak for itself. 

The Chairman. All right, proceed in that manner. The commit- 
tee will draw its own conclusions. Anwer the questions when they 
are asked. 

Mr. D'Anna. Senator, I am trying to answer them. 

The Chairman. Next question. 

Mr. Burling. Is it not a fact that you told Hancock in this auto 
ride out to the Rouge plant that when Chester had been alive he and 
Joe Tocco never let you fellows get anywhere near the plant and that 
now maybe things would be different? 

The Chairman. Answer the question and do not shake your head, 
because the reporter cannot get down a shaking of your head. What 
is your answer? 

Mr. D'Anna. No ; I don't remember having a discussion like that. 

Mr. Burling. You deny it? 

Mr. D'Anna. Whj^, certainly. 

Mr. Burling. You do deny that? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Then you do understand what the word "deny" 
means when you want to? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 



26 ORGANUZE© C'REVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. All right, you deny it ; that is all. 

Next question, 

Mr. Buttling. When you arrived at the Ford plant, did you o-q to 
Mr. Bennett's office? x j >= 

Mr. D'Anna. I believe Mr. Hancock drove me right to his office. 

Mr. Burling. In Mr. Hancock's automobile? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Who was present at the meeting between Bennett 
and you besides the two of you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember if there was anybody else present. 
I don't remember who was present. I remember I did meet Mr. 
Bennett that day. 

Mr. BuRixiNG. Hancock introduced vou? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Was there any discussion between you and Bennett 
at that time about the possibility that Joe Tocco would be murdered? 

Mr. D'Anna. Where does that make sense? 

The Chairman. Just answer the question "Yes" or "No." 

Mr. D'Anna. No. 

The Chairman. All right, now stop that now. 

Next question. 

Mr. Burling. Going back in the car, had you talked to Mr. Han- 
cock about Joe Massei ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No; I don't remember talking to him. 

Mr. Burling. You don't deny it? 

Mr. D'x\nna. No; we might have talked about 

The Chairman. Don't tell us what you might have talked about; 
tell us what did occur. 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. Will you state what you and Mr. Bennett said to each 
other ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember what conversation we had. I don't 
even remember if at that moment I asked Mr. Bennett if it was 
possible to get the Ford franchise or if the Ford franchise was open 
and available in Wyandotte. 

The Chairaian. Do you want this committee to believe that you 
were seeking this particular business and that you undertook to go 
to see Mr. Bennett about it and then, when you got there, you do not 
remember what you said? Do you expect this committee to believe 
that? If you do, you are just wasting your time. That is absurd, 
and the committee can give no credence to it whatsoever. What we 
want to do is get the truth from you; and, if you want to give the 
truth, now is an opportunity to do it. 

Mr. D'Anna. Senator, that is what I want to do. 

The Chairman. You do not expect the committee to believe that, 
do you 'f Because we do not believe it. 

Mr. D'Anna. Senator, I can only say this, if I am going to be given 
the privilege to say it: That I just don't exactly remember if I asked 
him at tliat moment or if I went back. 

The Chairman. What did you talk about on that first occasion? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember. 

The Chairman. What did you go there for? 

Mr. D'Anna. To meet him. My thought was to find out if the 
Ford franchise was available. 



ORGANIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERlCE 27 

The ChairMxVN. You went there for that purpose ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

The Chairman. Then what did you do and say ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I might have asked him about the Ford franchise. 

The Chairman. Don't tell us what you might have said or what 
might have happened ; tell us what you remember did happen. 

Mr. D'Anna. The only thing that could have happened was that 
I probably at that time, or if 1 went back some other time, asked him — 
it might have been at that one time when I first met him I asked 
him about the Ford franchise. I do remember — I don't remember 
whether it was that day or if I went back another day. He turned 
me over to a man by the name of Mr. Martin who was in charge of the 
Dearborn branch. 

Mr. Burling. Perhaps I can refresh your recollection and help 
you as to that conversation. Did Bennett say to you, "I sent for you 
because I hear you are going to knock off Joe Tocco"? 

Mr. D'Anna. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. That is not true ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is not true. 

Mr. Burling. Did you by any chance say to him, "Yes, that's right, 
we are going to do that" ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I said that? 

Mr. Burling. I asked you if that is what you said. 

Mr. D'Anna. That is not true. 

Mr. Burling. Is it true that Bennett said to you, after some dis- 
cussion, "Leave Joe Tocco alone. I don't want him knocked off, he is 
my man. I will see to it that you get a piece of the Wyandotte 
agency" ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Mr. Burling 

Mr. Burling. Is it true or not ? 

Mr. D'Anna. There is no sense to that kind of language. 

Mr. Burling. Who had the Ford agency at that time — anybody? 
It was vacant, was it not ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I remember that Mr. Pardo wasn't in the Ford agency 
at the time. 

Mr. Burling. There was not any Ford agency at Wyandotte at 
that time ; is that not right ? 

Mr, D'Anna. I don't know^ if there was or wasn't. I think some- 
body else had the agency then. 

Mr. Burling. But you are not sure ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I know Mr. Pardo wasn't in the business. 

Mr. Burling. Pardo had been in the business from 1913 until just 
about that time; is that not right? 

]\Ir. D'Anna. I don't know just exactly the date. I can't answer 
that question for Mr. Pardo. 

Mr. Burling. After you talked to Bennett about whatever you 
talked to him about, what did you do next with respect to this agency ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I think Mr. Martin told me that there was a possibility 
of obtaining it. 

Mr. Burling. Go on ; what did you do next ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I started to look around to see if I needed a building. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Pardo had a building in which the agency had 
been? 



28 ORGA]S''IZEiD CRIME IN INTERSTATE C'OIVIMERCE' 

Mr. D'Anna. I talked to Mr. Pardo. 

Mr. Burling. Where? 

Mr. D'Anna. In Florida. He was in Miami, and I went down there 
to see him. 

Mr. Burling. You went down to Florida to see him ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And what did you say to him ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I think I told him there was a possibility of 
getting the Ford franchise and he had the building and if he could 
consider us getting together that we could probably make some money 
with it. 

Mr. Burling. At that time you were a man who had associated with 
bootleggers, who had a criminal record, no capital, and no experience 
in the automobile business, and so he said, "Fine, I would like to have 
you for a partner." Is that what happened? 

The Chairman. Is that the fact? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, he didn't say that to me. Mr. Pardo never said 
that to me. 

The Chairman. Did he agree to have you as a partner ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes; Mr. Pardo said to me that it could be worked 
out — that he'd be glad to consider to go along. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, you and Pardo formed a partnership 
called the Pardo Auto Sales Co., is that right? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. They used the name Pardo, and they didn't include 
your name in the company ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I kind of think that was the agreement, that was 
our understanding, the understanding when we got together. I believe 
that was the understanding, that Mr, Pardo would use his building. 

Mr. Burling. Did anybody ever tell you that Harry Bennett insis- 
ted on Pardo's name because you had a bad reputation ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. 

Mr. Burling. You never heard that ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. 

Mr. Burling. You and Pardo continued under the name Superior 
Auto Sales until 1939 ; is that correct? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. 

Mr. Burling. Pardo Auto Sales ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. At that time, Mr. Pardo dropped out and you ar- 
ranged to have a corporation set up with your brother holding the 
stock? 

Mr. D'Anna. No ; I did not. 

Mr. Burling. You did not arrange that ? 

Mr. D'Anna. We dissolved the partnership and I was disgusted 
with the thing. 

Mr. Burling. You were disgusted with Ford agency, so you ar- 
ranged to have your brother take it, is that your testimony? 

Mr. D'Anna, Well, no, before that I think that there is something 
else that ought to be cleared up in that operation. 

Mr. Burling. Please do, Mr. D'Anna. 

Mr. D'Anna, That is that I was in the transportation business 
and 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERlCE; 29 

Mr. Burling. We will come to E. & L. Cannot we go on with the 
agency now ? 

Mr. D'Anna. But that has also got something that throws a light 
on why I was willing to — disgTisted to go along any further with the 
Ford oi^eration because I sold busses down there and then I was told 
that I wasn't going to be able to sell busses any more — the company 
was setting up another bus deal. 

Mr. Burling. We are not talking about busses. Is it not the fact 
that in 1939 the Pardo Auto Sales was dissolved and you arranged for 
your brother to have the agency under the name of Superior ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I did not arrange that. Mr. Creed arranged that 
part of it. 

Mr. Burling. As to Superior Motor Sales, you had nothing to do 
with the arranging of it ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Mr. Creed and I agreed to put up the building — I 
own the property that the present Superior Motor Sales is in. 

Mr. Burling. You owned the building? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. You built the building for the purpose of having your 
brother take the agency ; is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, Mr. Creed 

Mr. Burling. Did you build the building for that purpose ? 

Mr. D'Anna. When they agreed, Mr. Creed called me — "Look, if 
you put up the building," he said, "well, I will arrange with the Ford 
Motor Co. and your brother will go in this thing and take it over — 
take the Ford franchise and rent your building," So I saicl, "O. K.," 
and that is what happened. Mr. Pardo and I agreed to dissolve the 
partnership. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Creed was the manager in the Pardo Auto Sales? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is right. 

Mr. BurlinT. As a matter of fact, you very rarely went there; is 
that not so ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No ; I sold busses for a while. 

Mr. Burling. I am not talking about busses. I am talking about 
the sales of the Pardo Auto Sales. 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, yes; I was there and sold cars and trucks and 
busses as a salesman. That is what I started to apply myself to in 
that business. 

Mr. Burling. I thought you told you that the bus business was 
handled separately ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, the bus business when I 

Mr. Burling. Was it or was it not handled separately ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Look 

The Chairman. Answer the question. Did the Pardo Co. engage 
in selling busses ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, when 

The Chairman. Did it ? 
, Mr. D'Anna. Senator, when I started selling busses, it was given 
to me and the Pardos, the Pardo Sales. Now, I started selling busses 
to the DWT bus line down there. 

Mr. Burling. I cannot perceive what relevance that has to the ques- 
tion. 

68958— 51— pt. 9 3 



30 ORGAISIZE'D CRIME IX IXT'ERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. D'Anna. It is all built around the sales of cars — busses — and 
the operation of the Pardo Sales. I have got to give you a true expla- 
nation of what happened. 

Mr. Burling. Is it not true, Mr. D'Anna. j^ou told me in my office 
that Pardo did not want to go into the bus business and you handled 
that separately ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is right, he was • 

Mr. Burling. So the bus business has nothing to do with the Pardo 
Auto Sales, and let us stick to that. 

The Chairman. Is that correct ? 

Mr. D'Anna. But we paid the Pardo Auto Sales 5 percent so it is 
tied together, and I took the gamble with the Yellow Coach Co. 

Mr. Burling. That is fine, but it has nothing to do with what we 
are talking about. You did not go regularly to the Pardo sales room, 
did you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Is it not true you would drop in from time to time 
when you had a friend who wanted to buy a car ? Is that not true ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That isn't exactly true, because that was my bread 
and butter. That was where I got my start. 

Mr. Burling. There is no doubt that is where you got a lot of money, 
but the question is did you work at it ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Certainly, I worked at it. I sold units and Mr. Pardo 
and Mr. Creed — Mr. Creed signed all the checks because he was man- 
ager of the place. 

Mr. Burling. He went to work there every day and you dropped in 
only occasionally, is that not so ? 

The Chairman. Is that the fact ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I did go in there every day if possible — every other 
day. I was out selling merchandise, so that is where I got my com- 
mission. 

Mr. Burling. What kind of merchandise ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Ford cars and Ford trucks — Ford busses. 

Mr. Burling. And Superior remains the Ford agency today, does 
it? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. You own the land on which the building is built and 
the buildings ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Is it your testimony that you did not speak to Mr. 
Bennett at the time Superior was formed ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. No conversation at all? 

Mr. D'Anna. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever see IVIr. Bennett again while he was 
witli Ford after the time that you got the agency ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Did I see Mr.' Bennett when? 

Mr. Bi^RLiNG. Between the time you got the agency and the time 
he left Ford? 

Mr. D'Anna. Out at the plant? 

Mr. BiRLiNG. Any place. Did you ever see him? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes; I seen him out at the plant. 

Mr. Burling. Frequently? 



ORGANIZE>D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 31 

Mr. D'Anna. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, may I have marked as "Exhibit 1-A" 
a full-page ad in exhibit 1, which contains references to every hoodlum 
we will call. It is a full-page ad and I would like to read it into the 
record. 

The Chairman. The entire book is in the record and it is not neces- 
sary to mark it again. 

Mr. Burling. It says, "Compliments of the Superior Motor Sales, 
Wyandotte, Mich." Let us go back to E. & L. How did you get into 
that? 

Mr. D'Anna. I met a man by the name of Mr. Al Smith and God 
bless his soul, he was a fine citizen of our community — an attorney. 

Mr. Burling. Let us confine ourselves to the facts. 

Mr. D'Anna. All right. He told me 

Mr. Burling. Just a minute. Will you go on and state simply how 
you got into the E. & L. Auto Transport ? 

Mr. D'Anna. When he said that he had a client who had an interest 
in the E. & L. Transport Co. that wanted to sell out, I said, "Well " 

Mr. Burling. What did he say the client's name was? 

Mr. D'Anna. Mr. Olinstein. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever met him ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I met him up there at the office. 

Mr. Burling. Had you ever met him at that time? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever heard of him? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. I never heard of the E. & L. Transport Co. at 
that time. 

Mr. Burling. You purchased it, did you? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I went out and saw Mr. Lawson who owned 
the other half and asked him if he had any objections to me buying. 

Mr. Burling. What did he say? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, he said, "I don't have any objections. With 
me it is all right. I can't get along with my other partner," and 
something to that effect. And we got together and bought it out. 

Mr. Burling. Now, will you describe the business of E. & L. Trans- 
port Co. ? 

Mr. D'Anna. The E. & L. Transport Co. is transporters of Ford 
cars. 

Mr. Burling. They haul Ford cars away from the plants into 
various parts of the country, is that right? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. In interstate commerce? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, yes. 

Mr. Burling. They cross State lines ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever speak to Mr. Bennett about your half 
interest in the E. & L. Transport? 

Mr. D'Anna. Mr. Bennett never even knew I bought into that 
company. 

Mr. Burling. Do you think it is going to be a surprise to him when 
we tell him today ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't care. That is up to you and him, too. 

Mr. Burling. I am not interested in whether you care. Do you 
think it is going to be a surprise to him ? 



32 ORGANlIZE'D CTIIME IN DSTTERSTATE C'OMMERiCE 

JNIr. D'Anna. Well, he later on heard that I was in there. 
Mr. Burling. How did you know that if you have never talked to 
him ? 

Mr. D'Anna. He was in charge of the Ford plant. He must have 
known. 

INIr. Burling. You assume and you do not know ? 
Mr. D'Anna. I know from later experience because later when we 
got into war, Senator O'Conor— when we got — when our counti-y got 

into war, I was called by Mr. Sorensen and asked 

Mr. Burling. Does this have anything to do with Mr. Bennett ? 
Mr. D'Anna. Well, yes, because that is how Mr. Bennett found out 
something about the operation. 

Mr. Burling. Do you think Mr. Sorensen told him something, yes 
or no? 

Mr. D'Anna. He must have, but I'd like to answer it. 
Mr. Burling. You can make a speech later. 

Mr. D'Anna. Senator, can I answer that, the way it actually hap- 
pened? Don't crucify me and not give the truth of the operation. 

The Chairman. Your full rights are going to be protected. Just 
answer the question and we will get along very properly. 

Mr. D'Anna. I have got to answer the question as it actually hap- 
pened. He asked me if Mr. Bennett knew. I am telling you. 
Mr. Burling. Did he or did he not? It is a simple question. 
Mr. D'Anna. He probably knew. 
Mr. Burling. Thank you. 

]\fr. D'Anna. I didn't go and tell him. I wasn't asked — I didn't 
go and tell him. I don't remember telling him. 
Mr. Burling. Thank you. 
Mr. D'Anna. But I must tell you this, too, Senator, if you permit 

me 

The Chairman. You have answered the question fully. That will 
be enough right on that point. 
Mr. D'Anna. I wanted to answer this in this way, too. Senator, 

because I was called by Mr. Sorensen — or Mr. Bennett 

The Chairman. You have answered the question and that will be 
sufficient. You will have an opportunity later to make any statement 
you want. What is the next question? 

Mr. Burling. Now, in the E. & L. Auto Transport, you became an 
officer, did you not? 
Mr. D'Anna. Yes ; vice president and secretary. 
Mr. Burling. Vice president and secretarv; and in 1940 you were 
l^aid a salary of $27,000 ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, the books speak for themselves. 
The Chairman. Don't you know? 
Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Tlie Chairman. Do not give us evasive answers. Answer "Yes" or 
"No." You knew that? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know if it is what the exact amount is, but 
whatever the amounts are, Senator — we have auditors. 
The Chairman. Do not give us all of that. 

Mr. BuRLiNt}. It has been about $27,000 a year for the past 10 years, 
has it not? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes ; I imagine. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE; 33 

The Chairman, Do not imagine ; tell us. 

Mr. D'Anna. It must be. 

Tlie Chairman. You expect the committee to believe that you do not 
know whether you made $27,000 a year for the last 10 years? 

Mr. D'Anna. Senator, we changed the wage rate. 

The Chairman. Tell us what you made, then, if you know. 

Mr. D'Anna. If you have the records there, you 

The Chairman. We want to know what you know. We want to 
know how much to believe you. On the strength of what you have 
told me so far, we cannot believe much because you certainly are not 
entitled to belief. That is because you are evasive and you are not 
giving the full facts to this committee. You were asked whether you 
know you have made $27,000 a year for the last 10 years. A man of 
your intelligence who can dodge, squirm, and evade as you have this 
morning knows whether he has made $27,000 a year for 10 years. If 
you cannot answer that, do not expect us to believe anything. 

Mr. D'Anna. What was the question ? 

( The question was read. ) 

Mr. D'Anna. I believe it was. 

The Chairman. The answer is, "I believe it was." What is the 
next question? Is not the answer, "I believe it was"? Did you not 
just say that? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes; I believe it must have — it was. I believe you 
have those records. 

The Chairman. You said you believe it was ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes ; I believe it must have been. I believe it is. 

Mr. Burling. Your reason for believing it is that we have the 
records ; otherwise you do not know what your salary is ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I do. 

The Chairman. I suppose you paid income taxes on it ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Oh, Senator, you bet. 

Mr. BuKLiNG. All right; and with the exception of setting up an 
operation — and I am going to make the exception clear — to remove 
bombers from the Willow Run plant, and with that single exception, 
you drew substantiallv nothing in return for that salary you drew? 

Mr. D'Anna. That "isn't true. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Lawson, who is the owner of the other half, is 
the president? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. He goes to the office every day and attends to the 
business ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. He signs all the checks; is that right? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. I have the right to sign the checks. 

Mr. Burling. I did not ask you. You do not, do you? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I figure 

Mi\ Burling. You do not, do you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No; it is his responsibility. 

Mr. Burling. And today he has a general manager under him who 
is now a son-in-law ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Then you have got drivers and a man in charge of 
all the drivers ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is ridit. 



34 ORGAXIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERiCE 

Mr. BuRLiXG. You lia\'^e got mechanics and have a foreman who is 
in charo;e of the mechanics ; is that right ? 

Mr. D'AxxA. That is right. 

Mr. BuELixG. Yon have a bookkeeper, do you not ? 

Mr. D'AxxA. Yes ; we do. 

Mr. BtTRLixG. You have the usual clerical staff? 

Mr. D'AxxA. That is right. 

Mr. BuRLixG. You only deal with Ford because Ford is the only 
company you haul for; is that right? 

Mr. D'AxxA. That is right. 

Mr. Blthlixg. Suppose you just tell us what you did in the year 
1949 to earn $27,000. 

The Chairmax. Wliat you did. 

Mr. D'AxxA. Well, I own 50 percent of that stock. 

Mr. BtmiviXG. I am not asking if you received dividends. I am 
asking about a salary. What did you do to earn the salary? 

Mr. D'AxxA. I go there every other day or every day at times or 
three or four times a week or five times a week. 

Mr. BuRLixG. And do what? 

Mr. D'AxxA. Wliatever — I am in a managerial capacity with Mr. 
Lawson. We work together and our decisions are made together. 

Mr. BuRLixG. That is not what you told me ? 

Mr. D'AxxA. The responsibilities are ours together because that 
is our company — our operation. 

Mr. BuRLixG. That is not what you told me in my office, is it ? 

Mr. D'AxxA. Well, what else would I be doing? 

Mr. BuRLixG. That is not what you told me in my office, is it? 

Mr. D'AxxA. What did I tell you in your office ? 

The Chairmax. Suppose you tell us. 

Mr. BuRLixG. Is it not the fact that several of us questioned you for 
nearly a half an hour about what you did and found there was some- 
body doing everything that there was to be done and that there was 
nothing left for you to do, and then you admitted you did nothing? 

Mr. DAxxA. I did nothing? Isn't this my company? Ain't I 
supposed to make decisions as to whether we can do this or do that 
along with the other part owner? 

]VIr. BuRLixG. Does not Mr. Lawson, in fact, run it entirely, together 
with the general managing ? 

Mr. D'AxxA. Well, we have a very efficient operation, but when it 
comes to 

Mr. BiTRLixG. I am delighted to hear it. 

Mr. D'AxxA. When it comes to deciding on investments and things 
that mean anything to the company, I have been there, too. 

Mr. BuRLixG. You say you perform the functions as vice president 
and secretary ? 

Mr. D'AxxA. That is right. 

Mr. BuRi.ixG. Isn't it a fact that you were taking a free ride on the 
Ford coattails for $27,000 a year? 

Mr. D'AxxA. That is not true. • 

Mr. Halley. Are you a director of the cori.pany ? 

Mr. D'AxxA. Why certainly. 

Mr. HalIvEY. You sit on the board of directors? 

Mr. D'AxxA. Why sure. 



ORGANIZEiD CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE; 35 

Mr. Halley. a director is entitled to a salary as a director, but that 
is not what you got your salary for ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I get my salary because I am there to help decide 
where we are going- with our organization and operation. 

Mr. Halley. Aside from the decisions you made as a director at 
the board of directors' meetings, what other decisions did you make? 

Mr. D'Anna. Anything that might involve our company. 

Mr. Halley. For instance, what decisions did you make in the last 
year? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well- 



Mr. Halley. What decisions did you make last year ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well now, let's go back to the days — let's go back now 
to when our country got into the war. 

Mr. Halley. Let's talk about 1950. 

The Chairman. Last year. 

Mr. D'Anna. Last year ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. D'Anna, We have had no decisions to make. We have been 
going along all right. 

The Chairman. So the answer is that you got $27,000 for making 
no decision, is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, if you want to put it that w^ay, or count it 
that way 

The Chairman. Is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Senator, if you want to put it that way 

The Chairman. No; I want to know what you want to say? Is 
it a correct statement that you received $27,000 for making no deci- 
sions ? Is that correct ? 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Chairman, may the record show that he does 
not answer ? He has already said it anyhow. 

Mr. D'Anna. It isn't that I made no decisions. We were watch- 
ing our operations. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. D'Anna, we want to be entirely fair with you. It 
is true, that during the war you were active in selling war bonds ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. You traveled throughout the State addressing var- 
ious Italian-Americans, fraternal organizations, and otherwise speak- 
ing for the sale of war bonds, is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Why, yes. 

Mr. Burling. You did that in your capacity as an American citizen 
trying to do his part, is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. You did that at your own expense? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. That is what vou told me in my office, is it not? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Yet you deducted in 1942, the sum of $750 for ad- 
ditional entertainment. That was not at your expense and you took 
it off your income tax ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, don't you do entertainment in your business 
when you meet people and didn't I go out to my place of business 
and meet people? 

Mr. Burling. Is this entertainment in connection with doing noth- 
ing for the E. & L. Transport ? 



36 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE C'OMMERC'Ei 

Mr. D'Anna. You say that I do nothing:. After all, a man can't 
own 50 percent in a company and not do anything with anybody else 
or with the people 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, the deductions related to the E. & L. and 
did not relate to war bonds? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, there are some deductions that were charged 
to E. & L. and the deductions on war bonds, I paid out of my own 
earnings. 

Mr. Burling. All right. You deducted in 1943, $1,000 for enter- 
tainment. What kind of entertainment was that that you thought 
was deductible? 

Mr. D'Anna. In your business, don't you meet people and don't 
you try to be a gentleman to uphold your respect with the people you 
do business with ? 

Mr. Burling. You thought you were entitled to take a tax deduc- 
tion for trying to uphold your respect as being a gentleman ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, it isn't the way you put it. It is in conjunction 
with your business. Don't all business people do these things ? 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, it was in connection with E. & L. ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Some of it is. In deductions in the service on war 
bonds, that was a different thing. When I arranged the first foreign 
broadcast, and helped to arrange the first foreign broadcast into Italy, 
2 weeks before we were attacked at Pearl Harbor, I paid $615 out of 
my pocke't. 

Mr. Burling. And deducted it? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know just exactly what I deducted, but that 
is money I paid, wasn't it ? 

Mr. Burling. You gave me quite a speech as to how you took all 
this money out of your pocket. You did not take it out of your 
pocket, but took it as an income-tax deduction. 

Mr. D'Anna. Aren't you entitled to do that ? I wasn't being paid 
to do these things. I owed it to this country of mine. 

Mr. Burling. In 1944, the entry reads, "One thousand dollars for 
luncheons, dinners, et cetera, selling war bonds." 

Mr. D'Anna. That's right. I paid for my own gasoline expense to 
travel the entire State on eveiy bond drive. 

Mr. Burling. And you deducted it. 

Mr. D'Anna. I wore out two or three automobiles. I remember 
when Dick Le Clare was a big shot in Arizona and he was down here, 
I took him around the State time and again, and I bought shoes and 
stockings for him. Wasn't I entitled to it? I was willing to give 
my time, but if I spent money, wasn't I entitled to deduct it ? 

Mr. Burling. It is not a question of what you w^ere entitled to, as 
it is that you are falsifying what you told me last week. In 1945, the 
amount was $500. Let us come down to the year 1949. Is it correct 
that you took a motor trip wdth your wife and your daughter and 
her husband ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. You drove out to California and back, is that right? 

Mr. D'Anna. I remember it, in 1949, 1 think. 

Mr. Burling. It was 2 years ago, wasn't it? 

Mr. D'Anna. About 2 years ago. 

Mr. BuRLiNCJ. You passed through Tucson, Ariz. ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 



ORGANIZBD CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERlCE; 37 

Mr. Burling. Your son-in-law is an undertaker, is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Did you tell me the following story, that your son- 
in-law as an undertaker, had buried some of the members of Pete 
Licavoli's family, and he thought it would be appropriate to call on 
Pete Licavoli at the Grace ranch ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I told you something to that effect but not in those 
exact words. I was in Tucson, xA.riz., and stayed at the Santa Anita 
Hotel with my family. 

Mr. Burling. Did you tell me that the reason you went to Pete 
Licavoli's ranch was that your undertaker son-in-law thought he 
ought to call on the — on Pete Licavoli ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is not the exact words how I said that and 
referred to it. I was down there 

Mr. Burling. Did you not tell me the motive was that your son- 
in-law was an undertaker and that he thought because he buried some 
of the Licavolis, that he better go see the Grace ranch ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Not exactly in that tone of voice, Mr. Burling. 

Mr. Burling. Perhaps not in that tone of voice. 

Mr. D'Anna. Not in those exact words. 

Mr. Burling. I will agree with you that the tone of voice was 
altogether different. 

jNIr. D'Anna. I remember telling you that we went to Pete Licavoli's 
ranch. 

Mr. Burling. What was your motive? I am talking about the 
motive. 

The Chairman. Why did you go there ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I went there because my daughter and my son-in-law 
are very friendly with Pete's wife. Whether it was Pete's father-in- 
law or someone in that family who had passed away in the last year 
or not, I don't remember. Tony, wdio is the undertaker, has buried 
their family. They are friendly. They insisted that we go over there. 
Pete has horses and my son-in-law is fond of riding horses. So I 
said, "If you want to go over there, let's go." I, myself, out of curi- 
osity's sake heard about him having a ranch down there and thought 
I would see just what he had. You heard it around town here. We 
went over there. When we arrived there, he and his wife and the 
caretaker were there. My son-in-law rode the horses. They asked 
us to stay for supper and we left. 

Now, you didn't ask me if I seen anybody else there. I have been 
thinking since you asked me that question that there was a gentleman 
who used to live in Detroit, Mr. Carracciola, who was in the fruit 
business, and who is a fine citizen. 

Mr. Burling. Is there anybody else ? 

Mr. D'Anna. One of his children is an attorney. Pie is in business 
clown there. They have always been friendly to us. 

Mr. Burling. Thank you very much. 

In fairness to the witness, I think I must state for the record that 
I have nothing concerning that matter. 

Mr. D'Anna, will you briefly describe the Licavoli ranch? You 
told me it was like paradise. 

Mr. D'Anna. It looked like a beautiful set-up. 

Mr. Burling. Didn't you tell me it was like paradise ? 



38 ORGANIZED CRIME IK INTERSTATE COMMERiCE. 

Mr. D'Anna. It was like a paradise to me. It looked like a para- 
dise to me in the desert. 

Mr. Burling. Then you drove on to the coast and started back from 
the coast and this time yon happened to pass through Palm Springs, is 
that right? 

Mr. D'Anna. I went to Tucson, and then went to San Diego 

Mr. Burling. I am trying to hurry it up. You went to the coast 
and made some visits there and started back and on the way back, 
you passed through Palm Springs, Calif. ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes; but you cut some of it out. That isn't only 
right ■ 

Mr. Burling. I do not care what you did — all right, go ahead. 

Mr. D'Anna, You asked me if I went to San Diego and I said I 
did, and who I visited, and I told you who I visited there. Then you 
asked me if I went to Los Angeles. You asked me about people's 
names whom I never heard of. 

The Chairman. Did you go to Palm Springs ? 

Mr. D'Anna. From Los Angeles I went to Palm Springs. 

The Chairman. Now, we are at Palm Springs. Go ahead. 

Mr. D'Anna. We got in an accident 

Mr. Burling. It is too bad but we are not interested in the auto- 
mobile accident. You did get to Palm Springs finally after all these 
travels, did you not? 

Mr. D'Anna. How did I get to Palm Springs ? 

The Chairman. Did you go to Palm Springs ? 

Mr. D'Anna. From Los Angeles I went to Palm Springs. 

The Chairman. Now, we are at Palm Springs. 

Mr. D'Anna. I stopped at a mission. We got into an accident at 
one of the villages. 

Mr. Burling. We are not interested in your automobile accident. 
You did get to Palm Springs, finally, after all these travels, didn't 
you? 

Mr. D'Anna. But how did I get to Palm Springs? You jumped 
to Palm Springs, but how did I get to it? 

Mr. Burling. Will you agree you drove there in an automobile? 

Mr. D'Anna. You asked me for the truth, and let's not jump to 
Palm Springs. I headed for back home and on my way home, in one 
of the villages we stopped at a corner and a truck hit us. 

Mr. Burling. That is terrible. I am so sorry. But I am trying to 
find out what you did in Palm Springs, Calif. Did you ever get 
there? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. We went to a mission after the accident, and 
then the next morning, we went to Palm Springs. My family wanted 
to see Palm Springs. 

Mr. Burling. Fine. 

Mr. D'Anna. So we stayed at Palm Springs while they were repair- 
ing our car. 

Mr. Burling. Fine. While you were in Palm Springs, you visited 
another ranch, did you not? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, sir. I was anxious to see 

Mr. Burling. I wonder if you will tell us whose ranch you visited? 

Mr. D'Anna. 1 was anxious to see Mr. Bennett's ranch. It was 
right close to Palm Springs. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERiSTATE COMMERiCE 39 

Mr. Burling. "\'\'liat did you do ? Did yon drive there ? 

Mr, D'Anna. Yes. I drove over to see his place. I didn't know 
where it was at. I knew it was just outside — I thought it was in the 
city of Palm Springs. Instead, it was out of the city. So I went out 
there, and from a distance I could see it on the knoll when I arrived 
there. 

Mr. Burling. Is that as handsome or a less handsome establishment 
than Mr. Licavoli's ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That is a beautiful looking place, too. 

Mr. Burling. And did you meet Mr. Bennett there ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes ; I met him there when I arrived there. 

Mr. Burling. Did you have dinner with Mr. Bennett ? 

]\Ir. D'Anna. Yes, when I arrived there. I seen Mr. Bennett when 
I arrived there. He was — to be truthful, I thought he was kind of 
cool. I didn't know why he would be cool. I just — to me, he was 
alwaj's a gentleman out to the Ford Co. 

Mr. Burling. You had gotten on fine with him, had you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I beg your pardon ? 

Mr. Burling. You had gotten on fine with him at the Ford Co. ; 
is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I respected him. I thought he was always a gentle- 
man. This business of what his affairs were, that was his and we — 
after I arrived there, I said, "Mr. Bennett, I was happy to come 
through here. I thought I'd stop in here and say "Hello" — something 
to that effect. And they have a bar down there, near the horses. He 
gave me a drink. 

Mv. Burling. You stopped for supper, too, didn't you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. And he asked me to stay for supper, and there was 
another young lady who was supposed to be some movie-star assistant, 
or something, with her boy friend, and we went through the place. 
He's got a beautiful ranch-type home with a nice swimming pool out 
in front. And, in the meantime, he cooked supper, steaks. We had 
supper with him and left, and we went away. 

Mr. Burling. All right. By the way, on your way home from the 
coast, you also stopped at the Flamingo in Las Vegas ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, sir. My family wanted to stop at Las Vegas. 

Mr. Burling. That is the locality that Bugsy Siegel was in before 
he was murdered ( 

Mr. D'Anna. Who? 

Mr. Burling. Bugsy Siegel. 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know who you are talking about. 

]Mr. Burling. You never heard of Bugsy Siegel? 

Mr. D'xInna. No, sir. 

]Mr. Burling. Do you read the papers, Mr. D'Anna? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes; I read the papers. 

Mr. Burling. And you want to tell this committee you never even 
heard of Bugsy Siegel?. 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know if I ever heard of him or not. I don't 
believe I ever heard of him. 

Mr. Burling. Now, as a matter of fact, last summer, you saw Mr. 
Bennett again, didn't you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, sir. 



40 ORGAiVIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE C'OIVIlMERCEi 

Are you tliroiigli with me on the Flamingo and all the gambling 
l^laces? I took in all the gambling places with my family. I beat 
them out of about 50 

Mr, Burling. I believe the Chairman thinks I am capable of 
asking 

Mr. D'Anna. I beat them out of about 50 pennies. 

The Chairman. Let us move on now. The next question. 

Mr. Burling. You saw Mr. Bennett last summer, didn't you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You drove up to his farm at Clare, Mich. ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I was going up north. Mr. Bennett told me that — I 
said, "How come, Mr. Bennett, you never come back to Detroit," or 
something to that effect. He said, "Well, I go back to Detroit. I 
have a farm. I have a place up at Clare." He said, ''^Vliy don't 
you stop out there if you wish to ? " 

So, one summer, I was going up in the Upper Peninsula with my 
family, and I stopped. I was with my missus. He was there with 
his wife and his child, if I remember right, and I looked all through 
the place, all around the place. He's got a nice place there, on a lake. 
I thought maybe he was trying to sell the place or something. I didn't 
know. 

Mr. Burling. All right. That is enough. 

The Chairman. Next question. 

Mr. D'Anna. He served me a cup of coffee and I left. I haven't 
seen him since, until this morning. 

Mr. Burling. You say you have seen Mr. Bennett this morning ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I saw him when he come in here. 

Mr. Burling. I see. And you also have seen Mr. Licavoli since 
you saw him at his ranch ; is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. That was about 3 months ago ? 

Mr. D'Anna. It might be 3 months ago. It might be — somewheres 
around there. 

Mr. Burling. Around 3 months ago? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes ; that's right.. 

Mr. Burling. Why did you go to see him at that time ? 

Mr. D'Anna. He called me on 

Mr. Burling. On the telephone ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. And asked you to go to his house ? 

Mr. D'Anna. He started talking to me about milk, and things 
like that, something of the kind, and I went over there. I said, "I'm 
going out and I'll stop at your place." 

Mr. Burling. And you did stop at his house? 

Mr. D'Anna. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. By the way, going back to Mr. Bennett's house, you 
described that to me as also quite an elaborate establishment, did you? 

Mr. D'Anna, Yes ; it looked like a nice place. 

Mr. Burling. In fact, you said it was "too elaborate for us poor 
people," is that right? 

Mr. D'Anna, Well, I said it was too elaborate for me. 

Mr. Burling. You used the phrase "us poor people," didn't you? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I might have said that ; yes. 



OROAN'IZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERlCE 41 

Mr. BuELiNG. And your income in 1948 was $62,000; is that right? 

Mr. D'Anna. That's right. That don't make me a millionaire or 
a billionaire. I could still be rated as a poor people in an expression. 

Mr. Burling. You think a man with a $62,000-a-year income is poor 
people? I see. 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I 

Mr. Burling. Is that right ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, you say "poor" as an expression. A man with 
that kind of wages is very co^nfortable. 

Mr. Burling. Now, when you got to Licavoli's house, that is in 
Grosse Pointe? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. He showed you some cans of milk, I believe ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. He told me that he was getting in the milk 
business. 

Mr. Burling. In the canned milk business? 

Mr. D'Anna. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. What else did he talk to you about? 

Mr. D'Anna. That's all he talked to me about, about the milk 
business. 

Mr. BuRLixG. He didn't by any chance talk to j^ou about the fact 
that the Kef auver committee was going to come to Detroit, did he ? 

Mr, D'Anna. Well, I don't know. I never paid attention to the 
Kef auver committee, only when I read these papers. 

Mr. Burling. He didn't talk to you about it, at any rate? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. One of the things that I said to him was, "If this 
is going to be a success, can you use any trucks, any Ford trucks?" 

Mr. Burling. I see. But you didn't talk about 

Mr. D'Anna. But I never heard from him any more, and I don't 
know anything about the milk. 

Mr. Burling. You once went to his house another time to examine 
this paneling, I believe you told me? Is that right? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. The contractor that was building was re- 
modeling my son's 

Mr. Burling. All right. 

Mr. D'Anna (continuing). Did some 

Mr. Burling. All right, thank you. Now, you have known Joe 
Massei all your life, I believe, you said? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And you haven't seen him for the past 5 years? 

Mr. D'Anna. Five or ten years. 

Mr. Burling. I see. I believe you told me that you were in Miami 
a year ago, and you didn't look him up because you thought he was 
a bum? 

Mr. D'Anna. I didn't say that. 

Mr. Burling. Didn't you say you would have nothing to do with 
that kind of people? 

Mr. D'Anna. No; I don't remember saying that. 

Mr. Burling. You did not say that? 

Mr. D'Anna. I have no business relation with the people 

Mr. Burling. You did not say that to me, that you wouldn't asso- 
ciate with that kind of people ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I don't know if I said that I wouldn't associate 
with him or not. 

Mr. Burling. I see. 



42 ORGANIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERlCE' 

Mr. D'Anxa, I went to school with Joe. He was a pretty good boy 
in school. 

Mr. Burling. Please try to answer the question, Mr. D'Anna. 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. The question is, Didn't you tell me that you wouldn't 
have nothing to do with that kind of people ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, if Joe 

Mr. Burling. Didn't you say that? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, if Joe was connected with the gambling busi- 
ness, I don't want no part of it. 

The Chairman. The question is simply : Did you say that ? Answer 
"Yes" or "No." 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I don't know. I might have said, "I don't 
want anything to do with those kind of people" ; yes. 

The Chairman. All right. You say you may have said it ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. I would like to put in the record, Mr. Chairman, 
that my recollection is very clear that he did say that emphatically. 

You also know Sam Perrone, don't you ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Not very well. 

The Chairman. Do you know him ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. I met him at church affairs. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. D'Anna. I met him at weddings, funerals 

Mr. Burling. But over a period of 20 years 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't think I have known him that long. I've only 
known him for the past 5 years, through the bazaars at the Holy 
Family Church bazaar. 

Mr. Burling. How about Pete Parroto? You know him, don't 
you? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes ; I have met him. 

Mr. Burling. How about Bill Tocco ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I have met him, too. 

Mr. Burling. Joe Zerrili? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Carl Renda? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. And did you know Joe Tocco before he was shot ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. And Joe "Scarf ace" Bommarito? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. Senator, could I say this at this moment? 
Would you permit me to say 

The Chairman. Do you want to speak about knowing any of these 
people ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right ; go ahead. 

Mr. D'Anna. Senator, when the war broke out 

The Chairman. Is it very long? 

Mr. D'Anna. No. But when the war broke out I was asked to 
go along on the bond program of our Government, and I was asked 
to get together all of the Italian-American organizations in the com- 
munity and assemble them at the Masonic Temple for the purpose 
of shortwaving to Italy a foreign broadcast. 

The Chairman. And did you do so ? 



ORGAXIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE CiOMMERlCEi 43 

Mr. D'Anna. I did it, and Senator, through that activity that I 
stayed with the department for 5 years at my own expense, which 
I feel that I owed this great country of ours, I made it my business 
to meet everybody I could, not only in Detroit and Wayne County, 
but throughout this entire State. 

The Chairman. Very well. Good 

Mr. D'Anna. And I traveled at my expense, and I had the oppor- 
tunity of meeting all these people. I would assume bond for anybody, 
regardless of what his reputation was when our boys were dying in 
the front lines. 

Mr. Burling. But you knew all these hoodlums before the war. 
You didn't meet them in connection with selling bonds. You had 
known them for years. 

Mr, D'Anna. But I had a better chance of meeting a lot of other 
people though, during the war. Why do you just mention about the 
hoodlums? I met a lot of fine people in this great State and country 
of ours, too. 

Mr. Burling. There is no doubt about it. I think that you have, 
from starting out as a hoodlum, gone further to achieve respectability 
than any witness this committee has seen. 

Mr. D'Anna. I am sorry, Mr. Burling, that you call me a hoodlum. 
After all, I have tried to be a gentleman, and for the mistakes I made 
when I was a boy, I have paid, and I have cried ever since. I have 
shed tears ever since for that. 

Mr. Burling. Isn't it a fact, speaking of your crying, that the Im- 
migration and Naturalization Service went to you a year or so ago 
and said that you were well known in the Italian community down- 
river, and it was a well-known fact that a lot of Italians were being 
smuggled across the river, and they appealed to you on patriotic 
grounds to help them as an informant, to help find the Italian 
smugglers ? 

Mr. D'Anna. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. And isn't it a fact that you cried like a baby then, 
and that you refused to do that service for your country ? 

Mr, D'Anna. Well, now, that is your statement. 

Mr. Burling. Isn't it a fact? 

The Chairman, The question is : Is that a fact ? 

Mr. D'x\nna. Well, I was called by some man with the Immigra- 
tion- ■ 

The Chairman, I think that can be given a yes or no answer. 

Mr, D'Anna, Well, look, let me answer it, too. You made your 
statement, 

Mr, Hallet. Pardon me. The way to do it is to first say "Yes" 
or "No," and then you may explain. 

Mr. D'Anna, Yes. 

The Chairman. It is the truth ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, They came to me. 

The Chairman. Then the statement made by Mr. Burling is correct ? 

Mr, D'Anna. That's right. 

The Chairman. What statement do you want to make any expla- 
nation of? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, Senator, maybe that's one of my unfortunate 
positions' for being so well known here, and the opportunity I had 



44 ORGANIZE'D CRIME I]S^ INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

of getting so "well acquainted, that I am being called upon now and 
then: "Do you know about this?" and, "Do you know about that?" 
and. Senator, when I was asked by the immigration people about that, 
that is true, but when I cried, I said, "Look, it's not fair for our country 
to get infiltered with people who are undesirable.'' 

Mr. Burling. No ; that isn't right 

Mr. D'Anna. I said, "because this country is so great and so valu- 
able to we Americans," I said, "I can recall my dad over in Italy not 
owning a jackass, and in this country he died and left eight children. 
Every one of us got married but one. Every one of us have a family. 
Every one of us have done well for themselves. People over there are 
willing to give part of their body to come to this counUy." 

Mr. Burling. But you didn't help the Immigration Service. You 
refused ; isn't that so ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I said to the immigration 

M'r. Burling. Is it or is it not so ? 

Mr, D'Anna. There was nothing I could help them with. 

Mr. Billing. So you refused? 

Mr. D'Anna. There was nothing I could help them with, 

Mr. Burling. You refused to help? 

Mr. D'Anna. There was nothing I could help them with. 

Mr. Burling. Didn't you say you would not help them? 

Mr. D'Anna. I said there was nothing that I could help — I had no 
information that I could give them. 

Mr. Burling. And you wouldn't look out for information in the 
future and try to help ? You said you would have nothing to do with 
it? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know just exactly if that is true. 

The Chairman. Do you deny that you refused to help them? 

Mr. D'Anna. I think that I told them that I didn't care to get 
my nose into things because I have enough trouble taking care of my 
own business. 

The Chairman. But you didn't help them. 

Mr. D'Anna. We paid taxes — — 

The Chairman. You did nothing to help them. 

Mr. D'Anna. There was nothing I could do. Senator, I don't know 
how these people come in here. I am not helping any of these 
people come in here. I said, "If they are coming in here, it is dis- 
graceful because we have a fine country. We ought to keep it fine." 

The Chairman. But the fact is that you didn't offer to help the 
innnigration authorities ? 

Mr. D'Anna. But Senator 

The Chairman. Is that true ? 

Mr. D'Anna, But what could I do? 

The Chairman. Is that true ? 

Mr. D'Anna, I believe I said, "If there is any place I could help, 
I'll be glad to," 

The Chairman, But you didn't do anything? 

Mr, D'Anna, What could I do? What is there I could do? 

Mr, Burling, That isn't what happened, is it? Isn't it the fact 
that you gave the Immigration Service just the same speech about 
how bad it is to have the country infiltrated, and then you wept, aud 
then you said you wouldn't get yourself involved in it ^ you would 



ORGANiIZBD CRIME IIST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 45 

not have anything to do with it ; isn't that what happened ? Do you 
deny that ? Answer under oath, yes or no. 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't know if I said that I wouldn't. I think this 
is what I said to these gentlemen — I think that I said to these gentle- 
men, "Look, I think that it is disgraceful that our country is allowing 
those kinds of people to come in our country. I- am in businesss, and 
I have enough trouble taking care of my own business. Now, if it 
comes to a jioint where our country is in trouble, like with communism 
or the war that is taking place today, I am willing to give my life 
and die, because," I said, "I am 50 years old, and everything I've 
got, I owe to this country, and I am ready to die for it." 

Mr. Burling. But you are not ready to help the Immigration 
Service ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I said, in regard to the Immigration Service, 
I said, "Gentlemen, I believe you are on the right track. You are 
trying to stop the thing that may hurt our country, but I don't 
know where I can contribute to you in anything." 

The Chairman. All right. Next question. 

Mr. BuRi.iNG. Now changing tlie subject, Mr. D'Anna, you made 
several trips to Staten Island where your son-in-law was hospitalized, 
after having been wounded in the war ; is that right? 

Mr. D'Anna. That's riglit. My daughter lived there. She moved 
there. 

Mr. Burling. I understand that. Now, while you were there, did 
you meet a Mr, Joseph Palma ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And while you were there, did you meet Mr. Cirri ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No, I met Mr. Palma at the Ford plant. 

Mr. Burling. I see. Did you ever meet him at Staten Island ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Mr. Palma? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. 

Mr. D'Anna. Several times. 

Mr. Bitrling. Several times? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, several times. 

Mr. Burling. And did you meet the president of the Ford Haul- 
away Co. at Edgewater, N. J. ? 

Mr. D'Anna. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You didn't? 

Mr. D'Anna. No, sir. This man, Mr. Cirri, that I met, I learned, 
not through him, that he had an interest — I always was of the opinion 
that he had an interest in that company over there, but to what 
extent, I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. You did know he was president? 

Mr. D'Anna. And I don't know how he got the interest. I don't 
know a thing about them. 

Mr. Burling. And I don't suppose you know that Joe Adonis 
had an interest in and was an officer of it? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember of ever meeting Joe Adonis. 

Mr. BupxiNG. Did you ever hear of Joe Adonis? 

Mr. D'Anna. In the papers, yes; lately. 

Mr. Burling. Until you read about him in the papers lately, you 
never heard of Joe Adonis ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember ever hearing about him. If I met 
him, it's news to me. 

68958— 51— pt. 9 4 



46 ORGANIIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. I have no further questions. 
The Chairman. That is all. 
Mr. Halley. I would like to ask one question. 
The Chairjvian. Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. I would like to get back, for a minute, to this sugar 
business you had. I think you went into it about 1925 or 1926? 
Mr. D'Anna. T don't know the exact date. 
Mr. Halley. Well, is that approximately right? 
Mr. D'Anna. Somewheres in there. 
Mr. Halley. When did you give it up ? 
Mr. D'A nna. I was in it about 3 years, I believe, or so. 
Mr. Halley. How long were you in it ; do you know ? 
Mr. D'Anna. I think — I don't know whether it was 1924-27 — • 
somewheres in there, I don't know. 
Mr. Haij.ey. Why did you give it up ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I just didn't want — I don't know why. I gave it up, 
that's all. It was 1926 or somewhere in there. 

Mr. Halley. What did you do between the time you gave up your 
sugar business and the time you obtained your Ford agency? How 
did you make a living ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I just don't recall the exact 

Mr. Halley. I wish you would try to recall. Did you have a legiti- 
mate business between the time you gave up your sugar business and 
the time you got your Ford agency ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't believe I had any business until I picked up 
the Ford agency. 

Mr. Halley. On what funds did you live between the time you gave 
up your sugar business and the time you got your Ford agency ? 
Mr. D'Anna. I just about lived. 

Mr. Halley. Well, how did you get the money on which you, as you 
put it, just about lived? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I don't know. I can't answer those things, 
because I don't know. It's so long ago, I just don't know. 
Mr. Halley. Did you have a job? 

Mr. D'Anna. No ; I didn't have a job. One of my brothers worked. 
Mr. Halley. You had no job ? 

Mr. D'Anna. At the time, we did the best we could. We lived as 
comfortable, as cheap as we possibly could. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you can't live cheap on nothing. How did you 
get your money ? You didn't woi-k for how many years ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I didn't work for about a year and a half or two there, 
for a couple of years. 

Mr. Halley. A couple of years? 
Mr. D'Anna. I imagine a couple of years. 

Mr. Halley. Let's see. You went into the Ford agency when? 
That was 1931? 
Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And you didn't work for how many years before that? 
Mr. D'Anna. Maybe a couple of years. 
Mr. Halley. You had no occupation at all ? 

Mr. D'Anna. I don't remember of having an occupation there for a 
year and a half or two. My brother worked. My younger brother 
worked. We managed to get along. 



ORGAISPIZEID CRIME IK INTERSTATE ClOMMERiCE; 47 

Mr. Halley. Did yon sell liquor during that period? 

Mr. D'Anna. No, sir, 

Mr. Halley. Did you sell sugar during that period? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes, I was selling — I was selling sugar. 

Mr. Halley. M^hen did you give up the sugar business? 

Mr. D'Anna. It must have been around 1928, 1927, 1929 ; somewhere 
around there. 

Mr. Halley. Was it before or after the depression that you gave up 
your sugar business ? Do you remember the stock-market crash ? 

Mr. D'Anna. It was before. 

Mr. Halley. Before the crash? 

Mr. D'Anna. I think it was around 1929. 

Mr. Halley. Before the crash ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Were you fairly prosperous when you gave up the 
sugar business ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, no. I had a litle money there, but I don't recall 
just exactly what I had. 

Mr. Halley. Why did you give it up ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Well, I don't know. I just don't know why I gave it 
up. I gave it up because it wasn't a good business, and I tried to get 
in — I tried to get into the fruit business. I tried to get into — that's 
whj' I looked around, and then I thought that maybe that the Ford 
business would be a starting point to carry on a legitimate business. 

Mr. Halley. What do you mean by "legitimate business" ? Had you 
had an illegitimate business ? 

Mr. D'Anna. Everybody thought that the sugar business was bad 
and, after all, I thought that the Ford business was a very fine business, 
and I valued the respect of the Ford Motor Co. equally to my own. 

Mr. Halley. There is no doubt that the Ford business is a very fine 
business. What were your qualifications for getting into it? 

Mr. D'Anna. What is the qualification of anybody to get into any 
business ? 

Mr. Halley. Did you have any specific qualifications? 

Mr. D'Anna. No, but I was willing to apply myself to that business, 
and I did. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

The Chairman. All right. There are no further questions. 
(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. William Pardo. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God ? 

Mr. Pardo. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF A. WILLIAM PARDO, WYANDOTTE, MICH. 

The Chairman. Your full name, please? 

Mr. Pardo. A. William Pardo. 

The Chairman. Mr. Pardo, your address, please ? 

Mr. Pardo. 2846 Van Alstyne Boulevard, Wyandotte. 

The Chairman. And how long have you resided there, sir? 

Mr. Pardo. All my life. 



48 ORGANIZE© CKIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERiCE 

The Chairman, Would you be good enough to keep your voice up 
during the time you are on the stand and answer as clearly as you can 
so all may hear you ? 
Mr. Pardo. Yes. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Pardo. 
Counsel, will you proceed. 
Mr. Burling. You are now retired? 
Mr. Pardo. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. Going way back, you built a garage in Wyandotte in 
1911 ; is that correct? 

Mr. Pardo. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling. In 1913 you got the Ford agency? 

Mr. Pardo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. And along about 1931 you gave it up ; is that right : or 
it was canceled on you ? 

Mr. Pardo. That's right. 

Mr, Burling. The Ford Motor Co. canceled your agency? 

Mr. Pardo. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And then there wasn't any agency for a while; is 
that right ? 

Mr, Pardo. Yes. About 6 months — no; there was another party 
took over, Eastman. 

Mr. Burling. Did he ever get started? 

Mr. Pardo, Yes. They ran about 6 months, 

Mr. Burling. Did you see Mr. Anthony D'Anna in Florida in 
1931? 

Mr. Pardo. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. What did he tell you ? 

Mr. Pardo. That he could get the Ford agency and wanted to know 
if I would go in with him so they could get my building. I would not 
rent it to Eastman, and so 6n. 

Mr. Burling. Eastman did not have a building, did he? 

Mr. Pardo, No ; he went in with somebody else. 

JNIr, Burling. You knew D'Anna at that time from having lived in 
Wyandotte ? You knew his reputation as that of a bootlegger, 

Mr. Pardo. That was my supposition. 

Mr. Burling. His reputation was that, was it not? 

Mr. Pardo. Yes. 

Mr. Burling, Did Mr, Bennett say anything to you? 

Mr. Pardo. I never met Mr. Bennett and never seen him. 

Mr. Burling. Did D'Anna say anything to you about Mr. Bennett? 

Mr. Pardo, No, sir, 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, what arrangements did you make and 
what did you say to Mr, D>'Anna when he said he could get the 
agency ? 

Mr. Pardo. I said, "I will see you when I come back in about a few 
weeks." 

]\Ir. Burling. Wlien you got back, what did you say ? 

Mr. Pardo, He saw me, and I said, "Yes ; I will go in with you. pro- 
viding we have a manager." 

Mr. Burling. Did you name the manager? 

Mr. Pardo. I picked him. I felt he could get along with the Ford 
fellows. 



ORGAlSniZEiD CRIME IN INTERSTATE CIOMMERCE 49 

Mr. Burling. The Ford fellows ? 

Mr. Pakdo. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. You knew, of course- 



Mr. Pardo. Because I had my troubles with them. 

Mr. Burling. You knew, of course, that D'Anna had no experience 
running an automobile agency. 

Mr. Pardo. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. The reason for taking him in was that he could get 
the agency and you had been canceled out ? 

Mr. Pardo. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. After you started the agency, the manager ran the 
place : is that right ; at first ? 

Mr. Pardo. Well, yes. 

Mr. Burling. Then what— what was his name, by the way? 

Mr. Pardo. Creed. 

Mr. Burling. After a while you came back and ran it yourself ? 

Mr. Pardo. The last year. 

Mr. Burling. Will you describe the duties which D'Anna had in 
the Pardo Auto Sales Co. ? 

Mr. Pardo. What? 

Mr. Burling. What did he do ? 

Mr. Pardo. Just to sell cars. 

Mr. Burling. Did he come in and stand on the floor and sell cars 
to the customers ? 

Mr. Pardo. He brought them in. He brought the orders in. 

Mr. Burling. Well, now, didn't you tell me in my office that he only 
came in every now and then when he had a friend to sell a car to ? 

Mr. Pardo. I believe I did. 

Mr. Burling. That is correct ; is it not ? 

Mr. Pardo. Yes. 

iMr. Burling. In other words, he did not do much around there. 

]\Ir. Pardo. Well, there were times when he came there to the office. 

Mr. Burling. Has he talked to you recently ? 

Mr. Pardo. No, sir. I have not seen him since I saw you. ^ 

Mr. Burling. You have not seen anybody representing him ? 

Mr. Pardo. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You do remember telling me in my office that he did 
not do much at all except occasionally come in ? 

Mr. Pardo. At first ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. Then in 1939 Pardo was dissolved; is that right? 

Mr. Pardo. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. How did that come about? 

Mr. Pardo. It was canceled out by Harry May, a Bennett man. 

Mr. Burling. A Bennett man ? 

Mr. Pardo. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Tlie CHAiR:NrAN. That is all. The witness is excused. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Walter Hancock. 

Do you swear the testimony you will give this committee will be 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Hancock. I do. 



50 ORGAX'IZE'D CKHME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

TESTIMONY OF WALTER F. HANCOCK. LINCOLN PARK. MICH. 

Tlic CiiAiioiAX. What is your full name, please? 

Mr. IIaxcuck. "Walter F. Hancock. 

The Chairman. Where do you live? 

Mr. IIaxcock. Lincoln Park. 

The Chairman. How lonfr have you lived there? 

Mr. Hancock. Twelve years. 

The CiiAiKMAX. What is your occupation? 

Mr. Haxcock. I am with (ireat Lakes Steel. 

The Chair-max'. Were you formerly connected with the River Rouge 
IDolice? 

Mr. Haxcock. Yes. 

The Chairmax". In what capacity? 

Mr. Hax{ ocK. Chief of police. 

The Chairman*. During what period? 

Mr. Haxcock. I don't remember the exact years. I was a motor- 
cycle oHicer first and then a lieutenant and then a chief. 

The Ciiair:max. You do not know the date when you became chief? 

Mr. Haxcock. In 102G, I believe. 

The Chairmax. And it continued until when ? 

Mr. Haxcock. I think the year 1934. 

]Mr. BuRLixG. I want to ^o way back in your memory before World 
War L Chief. Is it the fact that your mother-in-law happened to live 
in Wyandotte next door to Sam (Tiannola's place ( 

Mr. Haxcock. It was Tony Giannola. 

Mr. BuRLixG. Did he got murdered, too? 

Ml-. Haxcock. I believe ; yes. 

Mr. BuRLixG. At any rate, back before the first war, you saw Tony 
D'Anna in and around the place from time to time; is that right? 

Mr. Haxcock. Xot too often. Occasionally ; yes. 

Mr. BiTtLixG. You knew him from Wyandotte, in other words? 

Mr. Haxcock. That is rio;ht. 

Mr. BiRLix(;. It would be true, therefore, that j'ou have known 
D'Anna, not i-ecenl ly, l)ut you knew him since he was more or less a kid. 

Mr. Haxcock. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Is it true — I am not asking you what you knew or 
whether you could make a police case — but you picked up a good 
deal of information about the re})utations in the down-river area. 
Is it true that everybody in the down-river area knew that Tony 
D'Anna aiul his ))artner Joe Massei were big bootleggers in Wyan- 
dotte, or am I exaggerating^ 

Mr. Hancock. 1 would say that is an exaggeration. 

Mr. Bi RUNG, They were known as bootleggers? 

Mr. Haxcock. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. They were known as partneis in the bootlegging 
business. 

Mr. Haxcock. T ])elieve so. 

Mr. BrRi.iXG. They had som(> followei's, but you do not know who 
they wei-e; is that rights 

Mr. Haxcock. No, sir. I knew nothing of tlieir work. 

Mi-. BrHiJX(}. You cannot identify the followers? 

-Mi. Hancock. Xo, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE ClOMMERlCE: 51 

Mr. Burling. You heard that they had followers ? 

Mr. Hancock. Well, I couldn't say. 

Mr. Burling. Do you recall the name Chester Lamarr, and that 
he was murdered? 

Mr. Hancock. I do. 

Mr. Burling. Isn't it correct that either right after, or perhaps 
before it, Tony D'Anna asked you if you would ask Harry Bennett 
if he could have the Wyandotte Ford agency ^ 

Mr. Hancock. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Did you do anything about it at that time ? 

Mr. Hancock. No, sir ; I did not. 

Mr. Burling. You did not call Bennett or write him a letter or go 
to see him ? 

Mr. Hancock. I did not. 

Mr. Burling. Did Bennett communicate with you thereafter about 
D'Anna? 

Mr. Hancock. Yes ; he did. 

Mr. Burling. Will you tell us what he said ? 

Mr. Hancock. He called the office. Mr. Bennett called the office 
in the police station and asked me if I knew Mr. D'Anna. I said that 
I did. He said, "If you can get in touch with him, I would like to 
see him." 

The Chairman. Mr. Bennett asked you that ? 

Mr. Hancock. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. And you told him that you would take a shot at it? 

Mr. Hancock. That I would try ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. Then did you phone D'Anna or go to see him, or 
what? 

Mr. Hancock. I went to his house. 

Mr. Burling. Did you find him there ? 

Mr. Hancock. No, sir; I talked to his wife. 

Mr. Burling. What message did you leave? 

Mr. Hancock. I asked her to have Mr. D'Anna call me. 

Mr. Burling. Did he? 

Mr. Hancock. He did. 

Mr. BirRLiNG. What did you say to him? 

]Mr. Hancock. I asked him and told him Mr. Bennett wanted to 
see him, and when we could go over to see him that I would take him 
over. 

Mr. Burling. By the way, how much time elapsed between the time 
Tony first spoke to you and the time that Bennett sent for D'Anna? 

Mr. Hancock, That would be several weeks. I would say at least 
a month. 

Mr. Burling. At least a month? 

Mr. Hancock. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. What did Bennett say to you when you were talking 
to him about where he would see Tony? Perhaps I could refresh 
your recollection. Did he say to you that he would meet D'Anna 
any place D'Anna wanted? 

Mr. Hancock. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. Was it not a bit unusual for a man of Mr. Bennett's 
position to offer to meet a bootlegger any place the bootlegger wanted 
to? Didn't it strike you that way? 



52 ORGANIZE© CRIME IK INTERSTATE CIOMMERCE 

Mr. Hancock. Well, of course, I dicln''t know anything what they 
wanted. It didn't concern me. He asked me to get ahold of him. 

The CiiAiRMAX. Did Mr. Bennett offer any explanation why he 
wanted to get in touch with him ? 

Mr. Hancock. No. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, D'Anna called you and you told him 
Bennett wanted to see him. 

Mr. Hancock. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. Then he said that he would meet Bennett at his 
office ; is that right ? 

Mr. Hancock. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. And either that day or the next day he, D'Anna, 
came to your office in the police station in River Kouge; is that right? 

Mr. Hancock. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. You drove him in your car over to the Rouge plant 
and up to Bennett's office ? 

Mr. Hancock. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. In the car you had a conversation with him ; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Hancock. It would be just a current conversation, something 
about the business and why Mr. Bennett wished to see him. 

Mr. Burling. Did he not say this to you, in effect, "Chester and 
Joe" — meaning Chester Lamarr and Joe Tocco — "have never let us 
fellows into anywhere near Ford or anywhere near Mr. Bennett, but 
now that Chester is dead things may be different"? 

Mr. Hancock. No ; it wasn't said that way. 

Mr. Burling. Tell us how it was said. 

Mr. Hancock. He said Chester and Joe would never let us meet 
with Mr. Bennett. 

Mr. Burling. You knew, of course, that Chester and Joe had con- 
cessions in the plants, did you not ? 

Mr. Hancock. Nothing that I knew myself. 

Mr. Burling. You had heard it ? 

Mr. Hancock. I heard it; yes. 

Mr. Bueling. You understood that that was what was on D'Anna's 
mind, did you not ? Wasn't that what you were talking about ? 

Mr. Hancock. No. I thought at that time his interest was in the 
agency. I didn't have nothing else in mind. 

Mr. Burling. But he did say something about Chester being dead, 
did he not ? 

Mr. Hancock. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Then you took Tony to Mr. Bennett's office, is that 
not correct ? 

Mr. Hancock. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. That was in the basement. 

Mr. Hancock. Yes, of the administration building. 

Mr. Burling. There was a man outside the door? 

Mr. Hancock. There was a clerk sitting at the desk. 

Mr. Burling. It was your practice in going to see Mr. Bennett to 
ask the clerk if he was alone and if he said he was you walked right 
in, is that not right ? 

Mr. Hancock. Yes. If there was no one in there. 

Mr. Burling. That is what you did this time, is that correct? 

Mr. Hancock. That is riffht. 



ORGANIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE ClOMMERlCE 53 

Mr. Burling. You walked in and there was Bennett alone. 

Mr. Hancock. That's right. 

Mr. BuELiNG. He was at his desk and you could see that picture. 

Mr. Hancock. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. What did you say and what did he say and what did 
D'Anna say? 

Mr. Hancock. He said — I said, "Mr. Bennett, this is Mr. D'Anna. 
Mr. D'Anna, this is Mr. Bennett." 

Mr. Burling. What did Bennett say to you ? 

Mr. Hancock. To me ? 

Mr. Burling. What did he say in your presence ? 

Mr. Hancock. Well, it was not only more than the time of the day 
and how you are and casual greetings. 

Mr. Burling. In your presence, wdiat did he say to D'Anna ? 

Mr. Hancock. "What can I do for you?*' 

Mr. Burling. "What can I do for you ?" 

Mr. Hancock. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Even though he had sent for D'Anna ? 

Mr. Hancock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. He starts the conversation, "What can I do for you?" 

Mr. Hancock. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. Burling. Was he standing or seated ? 

Mr. Hancock. Mr. Bennett was standing at that time. They were 
both standing. 

j\Ir. Burling. Did he tell Mr. D'Anna to take his seat ? 

Mr. Hancock. Have a chair, that is right. 

Mr. Burling. Did he sit down ? 

Mr. Hancock. Mr. Bennett? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. 

Mr. Hancock. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Then what happened? 

Mr. Hancock. Well, I asked him then if there is anything further 
for me. He said "No," and I went out. 

The Chairman. You left the two of them alone ? 

Mr. Hancock. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever told anyone that what actually hap- 
pened was that Bennett said, "I understand that you are planning 
to knock off Joe Tocco, and I don't want him knocked off because he 
is my man," and D'Anna said, "Yes, we are going to." And then 
there was a discussion which ensued and then finally a deal was made 
and D'Anna agreed to let Joe Tocco live and Bennett agreed to see 
that D'Anna had a part of the agency? Did you ever say that to 
anyone ? 

Mr. Hancock. Not that I know of, Mr. Burling. I don't know what 
the occasion would be that I would say it. 

Mr. Burling. Are you sure it did not happen ? 

Mr. Hancock. It did not happen while I was there. 

Mr. Burling. As far as you recall, you did not tell anyone that? 

Mr. Hancock. I don't know what the occasion would be if I should. 

The Chairman. Had you heard that rumor discussed at all as hav- 
ing happened at any time or at any place ? 

Mr, Hancock. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Halley. I have nothing else. 



54 ORGANIZE'D CRIME EST ESTT'ERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. That is all. 
(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. I now call Pete Licavoli. 

Do you swear the testimony you will o;ive this committee will be 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 
Mr. Licavoli. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF PETER LICAVOLI, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. What is your full name? 

Mr. Licavoli. Peter Licavoli. 

The Chairman. Peter Licavoli? 

Mr. Licavoli. That is right. 

The Chairman. What is your address? 

Mr. Licavoli. 115^1: Balfour. 

The Chairman. 1154 Balfour? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

The Chairman. How long have you live there ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Oh, about 10 years. 

The Chairman. '\'Vliere did j^ou live before that? 

Mr. Licavoli. St. Louis. 

The Chairman. How long did you live in St. Louis ? 

Mr. Licavoli. All my life. 

The Chairman. You were born there? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In what business are you engaged? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me in both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Licavoli, you were advised by counsel for the 
committee that the privilege as to self-incrimination does not apply 
to State offenses, and you may refuse to testify only if the testimony 
would have a tendency to incriminate you of a Federal offense. Do 
you understand that ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Have you been consulting with counsel ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Now, furthermore, you understand that you may 
claim the privilege and you may refuse to answer on that ground only 
if in fact the answer if given would tend to incriminate you ; that is to 
say that if you told the truth j^ou would be admitting the crime. Do 
jou understand that? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. So that, in effect, you are saying you refuse to answer 
the question as to what your occupation is on the ground that it is a 
criminal occupation; do you understand that? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't get that clear, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Perhaps I have gone a little too fast for you. If I 
ask you, is it raining, you cannot refuse to answer on the ground that 
it would tend to incriminate you because it would not. 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You can only claim the privilege legally if in fact 
the answer if given would tend to incriminate you. Do you under- 
stand that ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 



ORQANIZEID ORIME IN INTERSTA,TE GOMMEEICE; 55 

Mr. Burling. That means that if you are rightfully claiming your 
privilege the answer to the question would tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. In other words, if you tell us what your occupation 
is it would tend to incriminate you ; is that right? 

Mr. LicAVOLi. I refuse to answer that on the ground that it might 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Burling. You refuse to answer wliether or not you understand 
me on the ground that it would tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi, Yes. 

The Chairman. At this juncture we will recess for lunch, until 
1 : 45, and you will return to the stand at that time. 

(Whereupon, a recess was taken at 12:45 p. m., to reconvene at 
1:45p.m.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

The Chairman. The hearing will be resumed. 
We will call Mr. Pete Licavoli to the stand again. 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF PETE LICAVOLI 

The Chairman. At the time we recessed for lunch, certain ques- 
tions were being asked you, and I will now ask counsel to continue. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Licavoli, do you have a criminal record? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer, on the ground that it may tend 
to incriminate me. 

Mr. Burling. Let me see if we can get this straight. Do you re- 
fuse to answer whether you have been previously arrested, on the 
ground that it might incriminate you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Do you care to explain the ground? How could the 
fact that you had previously been arrested tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know how, but I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Burling. You decline to give the committee any explanation as 
to why it Avould tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. Licavoli. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully ask that the witness be 
ordered to answer the questions. 

The Chairman. Yes. The chairman of the subcommittee orders you 
to answer that question. 

Mr. Licavoli. It orders me to answer it? I refuse to answer any 
questions that tend to incriminate me, in violation of the State and 
Federal laws. 

The Chairman. Next question. 

Mr. Burling. Were you arrested in 1922 for robbery ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer the question, on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me, under both Federal and State laws. 

Mr. Burling. How could it possibly tend to incriminate you, Mr. 
Licavoli, as to whether or not you were arrested for robbery in 1922? 
The statute of limitations is over long ago. 

Mr, Licavoli. I refuse to answer that question, sir. 

Mr. Burling. On what ground ? 



56 ORGAmZEfD CRrME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. LicAvoLi. It may tend to incriminate me under both State and 
Federal laws. 

Mr. Burling, Even to explain it? Would that tend to incriminate 
you ? Is that your position ? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. Pardon ? 

Mr. Burling. Just explain to the committee how it could possibly 
tend to incriminate you to answer whether you had been arrested for 
robbery in 1922. 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Well, I refuse to answer that, sir. It might incrimi- 
nate me both under the State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Burling. I think the question as to whether he was arrested is 
proper, and I respectfully ask that the witness be ordered to answer. 

The Chairman. The committee orders you to answer it. 

Mr. LicAvoLi. I refuse to answer, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Licavoli, will you look at this photograph which 
I am handing you, and tell me whether you have any idea of who that 
person is ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer that, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Licavoli, this is a police photograph, Detroit 
Police Department, No. 30787, dated June 1, 1950. It looks to me 
remarkably like the witness, and I ask that this and the attached 
police records be marked in evidence. 

The Chairman. It will be so marked. 

(The document identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 4, and appears in the appendix on p. 266.) 

The Chairman. While it is before you, you can avail yourself of its 
contents and propound any questions. 

Mr. Burling. I. am going to read what purports to be your police 
record, and ask that you listen attentively, and if there is any -arrest 
on here which you think does not relate to you, please let us know. 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't think that is fair, sir. I am not on trial here. 

Mr. Burling. Would you prefer that we do it case by case ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't prefer. I refuse to answer all questions con- 
cerning me because it may tend to incriminate me 

Mr. Burling. It may not, sir. 

Mr. Licavoli. In violation of State and Federal laws. I don't 
think that it is fair that you should read my record. 

Mr. Burling. All right. Police department, St. Louis, 9-5-22, 
robbery, discharged. 

Same police department, 1-19-26, robbery, discharged. 

Detroit, 9-8-27, armed robbery, discharged. 

3-20-27, violation of Volstead Act, St. Louis, discharged by court. 

Police department, Detroit, 10-26-27, kidnaping. 

Do you remember that? 

(No response.) 

jVIr. Burling. I said. Do you remember that? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer, sir. 

Mr. Burling. I see. It might tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. In other words, you might be incriminated of the 
crime of kidnaping if you answer? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer that, sir. 



ORGANIZE'D CRIME IN INTEESTATE COMMERiCEi 57 

Mr. Burling. You can't refuse to answer. The inference is un- 
mistakable ; if you refuse to answer on the charge of kidnaping in 1927, 
if you were guilty as charged. 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Well, the record answers for itself, sir. Everything 
is on there. You've got the record, and it reads for itself, whatever 
it is. Why should I incriminate myself if I answer that question? 

Mr. Burling. Because you have no right under the Constitution to 
refuse to answer that you were not guilty of kidnaping. 

Mr. LicAvoLi. I have my constitutional — It is within my consti- 
tutional rights to refuse to answer, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Very well. The police department, Detroit, 1-8-28, 
violation of prohibition, discharged. 

3-21-28, c. c. w. ; fined $200 and 90 days in the Detroit House of 
Correction. 

7-19-28, murder. Did you commit the murder? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Burling. You think it might tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. Licavoli. It might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Burling. If you testified about this murder charge? The in- 
ference again is quite clear. 

7-21-28, armed robbery, discharged. 

4-29-29, kidnaping, discharged. 

How about that? Do you have anything to say about that? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer on the ground that it might tend 
to incriminate me. 

Mr. Burling. You don't deny it? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Burling. Then, 5-12-29, investigation, disorderly person, dis- 
charged. 

9-26-29, investigation, discharged. These are all Detroit. 

1-6-30, investigation, discharged. 

Toledo, 10-2-31, fugitive, turned over to Detroit police. Then re- 
ceived in Detroit at 10-5-31 on the charge of murder. You were found 
not guilty. Now, since you were found not guilty, you can't be incrim- 
inated with that. Will you tell us about that? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer on the ground it may tend to in- 
criminate me in violation of State and Federal laws. 

Mr, Burling. Mr. Licavoli, once a jury has found you not guilty 
of murder, you cannot be tried again for it. Therefore it would be 
impossible for you to be incriminated. Will you explain to us why 
you refuse to tell us about this murder charge ? 

Mr. Licavoli. That is past, 20 years or 25 years ago. Why should 
I talk about something that is already over with 25 years ago? 

Mr. Burling. Because you are being questioned. 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer any questions in regard to any 
past histories. 

Mr. Burling. Will you please tell us all that you know about your 
arrest in Toledo and your being charged with murder and the acquittal 
of murder in 1931 ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer on the ground it may tend to in- 
criminate me in violation of the Federal and State laws. 

Mr. Burling. It seems to me that is a clearly proper question. 



58 ORGANIIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COiMMERiCB 

The Chairman. Just continue with the rest of the record so you can 
ask one general question. 

Mr. Burling. 12-3-31, conspiracy to viohite the national prohibi- 
tion law, no disposition given; 5-2-33, murder, discharged by the 
court; 4-22-35, investigating shooting, discharged on writ; 6-10-35, 
investigation, disorderly person and armed robbery, discharged; 
8-12-35, attempted extortion, discharged by the court ; 11-11-35, a. and 
b., $100 or 90 days Detroit House of Correction ; 1-23-il, conspiracy, 
found not guilty; 10-10— tl, investigation r. a., discharged; 12-30-12, 
reckless driving, discharged; 8-27-46, investigation, discharged; 
6-1-50, investigation, no disposition given. I believe, as to any mat- 
ters prior to the running of the statute of limitations, Mr. Chairman, 
it is clear that the witness has no privilege. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Licavoli, with reference to those ques- 
tions which have been asked of you by counsel, the committee directs 
you to answer. What response do you make ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer on the grounds it may tend to 
incriminate me in violation of both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Burling. I ask that this brochure be marked, and I offer it in 
evidence. 

(The document identified w^as thereupon received in evidence and 
is included in exhibit No. 5, Avhich appears in the appendix facing 
p. 267.) 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I have a brochure describing what 
is called a "beautiful Grace ranch nestled in the scenic Catalina foot- 
hills, 12 miles northeast of Tucson." Mr. Licavoli, will you look at 
this brochure and tell me what ranch is referred to? 

Mr. Licavoli. That is mine. 

Mr. Burling. That is yours ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes ; it is. 

Mr. Burling. Known as the Grace ranch ? 

The Chairman. Would you like to see if this properly describes 
it? 

Mr. Licavoli. I know the brochure. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I will read some parts of this into 
the record. It reads : 

Beautiful Grace ranch, comprising of main house, 11 private guest rooms, 2 
large sun decks, large dining room and lounge. Fully equipped restaurant- 
sized kitchen, storeroom, modernly equipped laundry and linen room. Help's 
quarters. Three large dirt reservoirs, five wells, new aluminum 20 by .50 hay 
barn, fully equipped workshop, corrals, stables, tack room, one-fourth mile 
fenced-in exercise track. Plenty of well-irrigated land for pasture. 

As the record will show^ there are various photographs showing 
guest rooms, dining rooms at the main house of the patio ; and I will 
ask, How much did you pay for this? 

Mr. Licavoli. It is for sale ; you forgot that. 

Mr. Burling. Did you have this printed, Mr. Licavoli ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

The Chairman. What is it being offered for sale for; that is, for 
what amount? 

Mr. Licavoli. Well, it is— rl refuse to answer on the ground it may 
incriminate me. 

Mr. Burling. The question is a proper question. 

The Chairman. The chairman directs you to answer. Do you 
still refuse? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 59 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Yes ; I refuse. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Chairman, may the record show even the witness 
laughed at his own answer. Do you take that answer seriously, Mr. 
Licavoli, that you refuse to answer on the ground it might incriminate 
you? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes ; I do. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Burling. Do you care to give the committee any explanation 
as to how the asking price for the piece of real estate could possibly 
incriminate you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know. I refuse to answer that question on the 
same grounds. 

The Chairman. What is the next question ? 

Mr. Burling. How much did you pay for the ranch ? 

Mr. Licavoli. $21,000. 

Mr. Burling. $21,000 for this ranch ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Did you add anything to it ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. How much capital have vou put into it? 

Mr. Licavoli. Oh, $20,000 or $25,000. 

Mr. Burling. So your total investment in this ranch which has 
To acres with 11 private guest rooms is in the neighborhood of $45,000 
or $50,000 ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Approximately. I worked on that myself. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I have in my hand a photograph of 
a house which I would like to show the witness and then have marked. 
Will you examine that house and see if you know the house ; that is, 
examine the photograph? 

Mr. Licavoli. That is my house. 

Mr. Burling. Your house in Grosse Pointe ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. How much did you pay for that ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Around $20,000. 

]Mr. Burling. Did you pay around $20,000 for that house ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. When ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Oh, 10 years ago, 11 years ago. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I ask that that be received in evidence. 

The Chairman. It will be placed in the record and so marked by 
the reporter. 

(The photograph identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exliibit No. 5, and appears in the appendix on p. 267.) 

Mr. Burling. You have a brother "Yonnie"? Will you spell the 
name, please? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. T-h-o-m-a-s, Thomas. 

Mr. Burling. How is he commonly known ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Well, the nickname is "Yonnie." His name is 
Thomas Licavoli ? 

Mr. BiTRLiNG. Where is he now ? 

Mr. Licavoli. He is in the Ohio Penitentiary. 

Mr. Burling. How long has he been there ? 

Mr. Licavoli. About 17 years. 



60 ORGANlIZEt) CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCEi 

Mr. Burling. He is in for life ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. On what charge ? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. Murder — conspiracy. 

Mr. Burling. Conspiracy to murder ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Yes. The same sentence here is 5 years — it calls for 
5 years — and in Ohio it is life. 

Mr. Burling. Now, you have a telephone, I believe, at the Grace 
ranch ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. The telephone records show you made in 1949 and 
1950 various phone calls. I am going to ask you to identify the people 
that you called from there. Did you call a Mr. Connel at Twinbrook 
35100, Detroit, and who is he ? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. I refuse to answer on the grounds it may tend to 
incriminate me. 

Mr. Burling, Are you asserting your associations with Mr. Connel 
would incriminate you? 

Mr. LiOAVoLi. I refuse to answer on the grounds it may tend to 
incriminate me. 

Mr. Burling. Michael Polizzi, Valley 25146, Detroit; who is 
Michael Polizzi? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. I refuse to answer on the grounds it may tend to 
incriminate me. 

Mr. Burling. Grace Bommarito, Lorraine 81365, Detroit; who is 
she? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Grace Bommarito ? 

Mr. Burling. Do you know anyone named Grace Bommarito ? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. My mother-in-law. 

Mr. Burling. That does not incriminate you. 

Mr. LicAvoLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. How about Joseph Bommarito, Tuxedo 5-0908? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. That is my brother-in-law. 

Mr. Burling. Sam Perrone, Valley 24950. Who is he ? 

Mr. LicAVQLi. Next-door neighbor. 

Mr. Burling. An old friend ? 

Mr. LiGAvoLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. A close friend? 

Mr. LiGAvoLi. No, sir ; an acquaintance. 

Mr. Burling. How long have you known Sam Perrone ? 

Mr. LiGAVOLi. Since he moved. 

Mr. Burling. When did he move there ? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. I don't know ; I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. Well, approximately. 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. A couple of years. 

Mr. Burling. You have been in his house ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. He has been in yours ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Donald J. Licavoli, Tuxedo 5-0140. 

Mr. Licavoli. My brother. 

Mr. Burling. Sam Zerilli, Lorraine 77597. Who is he? 

Mr. Licavoli. Lorraine ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE ClOMMERiCE; 61 

Mr, Burling. Sam Zerilli. 

Mr, LiCAvoLi. My brother-in-law. 

Mr. Burling. How is he reLatecl to you ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. My wife and his wife are sisters. 

Mr. Burling. Thomas Licavoli, Walnut 14651, Who is he ? 

Mr. Licavoli. My brother. It is my sister-in-law, Mrs. Thomas 
Licavoli. 

Mr. Burling. Martin Fenster in Los Angeles, Tucker 9369, Who 
is he ? 

Mr. Licavoli. A friend of mine. 

Mr. Burling. Morris alias Mushy Wexler, Cherry 19720, Cleve- 
land. Who is he? 

Mr. Licavoli. I know him ; a friend of mine. 

Mr. Burling. What does he do for a living? 

Mr. Licavoli. He has a cafe in Cleveland. 

Mr. Burling. Do you have any other people that you know of ? 

Mr, Licavoli, Not that I know of. 

Mr, Burling. He never told you he had any other business except 
running a cafe? 

Mr. Licavoli. (No response.) 

Mr. Burling, In the Desert Inn in Las Vegas, Nev., did you have 
any business connections 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

]Mr. BtTRLiNG. Have you ever been there ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes ; a few days ago. 

Mr. Burling. Then we have Moe Dalitz. Have you ever heard of 
him ? Las Vegas 6000. Incidentally, that is the number of the Desert 
Inn. 

Mr. Licavoli, I know of him ; yes, 

Mr, Burling, You telephoned to him ; did you not ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

Mr. Burling. You deny having put through a call to Moe Dalitz ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, 

Mr, Burling, Then we have Dominick Licavoli, at Newstedt 5386, 
at St, Louis, 

Mr, Licavoli, He is my uncle, 

Mr, Burling, Frank Valenti, at Monroe 7186, in Rochester, 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't remember that. 

I\Ir. Burling, Then we have Pete Mannelli, at Youngstown 7-2144. 
Do 3^ou know him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know him. 

Mr. Burling. You called him, but you don't know him? 

Mr. Licavoli. I didn't call him. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. How about Joe DeCarlo, at Youngstown -^2245 ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes; I knew him. 

Mr. Burling. What does Joe DeCarlo do ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know, 

Mr, Burling, Next we have Mike D'Angelo, at Walnut 2275, in 
Colorado Springs, Colo, 

IMr. Licavoli. Colorado Springs, Colo. ? 

Mr. Burling. Yes ; Mike D'Angelo. 

Mr, Licavoli, I know a Mike D'Angelo, but he is not from Colorado. 

Mr. Burling. Wlio is he ? 

68958 — 51 — pt. 9- 5 



62 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. LicAvoLi. A friend of mine- 
Mr. Burling. What does he do for a living ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. James Brink, Dixie 7304, at Erlanger, Ky, Do you 
know him? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. What does he do for a living ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. He runs the Lookout House. 

Mr. Burling. Is it a gambling casino ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. The Lool^out Stud. It is a stable. 

Mr. Burling. You first said "Lookout House," yourself; did you 
not? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Burling. Was that a slip of the tongue? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. I made a mistake. It is Lookout Stud. 

Mr. Burling. Do you seriously want to tell this commitee that 
the Lookout House or Lookout is not a gambling casino in Kentucky ? 

MV. LicAvoLi. I don't know whether it is or not. I have never been 
in there in my life. 

Mr. Burling. Next is Jack Dillon, Central 5844, in St. Louis. Who 
is he ? 

Mr. LicAVOLi. I don't remember making any calls to Mr. Dillon. 

Mr. Burling. Next is Sam Masseri, Main 9545, at San Diego. 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. He is a cousin of mine. 

Mr. Burling. Then we have Martin Fenster. He is a friend of 
yours, you say? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Yes'. 

Mr. Burling. What does he do for a living ? 
• Mr. LicAvoLi. He has a bar in Los Angeles, Calif. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever done time ? 

M'r. LicAvoLi. Yes. 

The Chairman. Will you answer audibly so that the reporter can 
get the answer? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Yes. 

The Chairman. The answer is "Yes." 

Mr. Burling. What was the charge? 

Mr. LicAVOLi. Bribery of a customs officer. 

Mr. Burling. Where did the alleged bribery take place? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. Whom were you asserted to have bribed ; do you re- 
member that? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. Wliom were you asserted to bribe? Do you remem- 
ber that? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Pardon me? 

Mr. Burling. Who was it said you bribed ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. A customs officer. 

Mr. Burling. You do not remember where in the LTnited States? 

MV. LicAvoLi. No. 

Mr. Burling. Where did you serve the time? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. In Leavenworth. 

Mr. Burling. Da you know Joe Massei ? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. Yes. 



ORGANTZE'D CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 63 

Mr. Burling. Do you know a man called Melforcl Jones ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Have 3^011 ever been in the Stork Club ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. Not that I can remember. 

Mr. Burling. Did you shoot Melford Jones in the Stork Club ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Burling, I want to be sure you understood my question. I 
asked you, Did you shoot Melford Jones in the Stork Club? 

Mr. LicAVOLi. No sir. 

Mr. Burling. Just a moment ago you refused to answer, on the 
ground that the answer Avould tend to incriminate you. 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. If 3'ou want me to put it that way, all right. You 
asked me if I shot Melford Jones, and I said "No." 

Mr. Burling. Did you shoot him anywhere not confined to the 
Stork Club? 

Mr. LicAVOLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Now, Mr. Chairman, I have a booklet called Green 
Sheet 1951 Almanac, and I will show it to the witness and ask him 
if it is not true that he arranged to have it printed and that he dis- 
tributes these booklets. 

Mr. LiCAVOLT. I refuse to answer it, on the ground that it may tend 
to incriminate me under both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Burling. Tn view of that question, I request that the book be 
received in evidence. 

The Chairman. The booklet will be offered in evidence, admitted, 
and will be, so marked by the oflicial stenographer. 

(The document identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
"Exhibit No. 6," and in on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Burling. My understanding of the law is that possession of 
gambling paraphernalia, including these books, is a violation of State 
law but there is no Federal law against numbers, which these books 
are used in connection with. I, therefore, respectfully request that 
you order the witness to answer the question. 

The Chairman. Yes. It is so ordered, and you are directed to 
answer. 

Mr. LicAvoLi. I refuse to answer, on the ground that it may tend to 
inci'iminate me, in violation of both State and Federal laws. 

jNIr. Burling. I show you iiow a green book for 1950, and ask you 
if you arranged to have that printed. 

Mr. LicAVOLi. I refuse to answer, on the same ground. It may tend 
to incriminate me in both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know a man named Jen-y Martin? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. He hauled these books 

Mr. LiOAvoLi. I refuse to answer, on the ground 

Mr. Buri.ing. Wait a minute. You have already answered the 
question. 

My. Ltcavoli. You asked me if he hauled books. 

]Mr. BuRiiiNG. You are anticipating me. You have correctly 
guessed the question. Now, Martin hauled the books away from the 
printer ; isn't that right ? 

]Mr. Ltcavoli. I refuse to answer, on the ground that it may tend 
to incriminate me, both in State and Federal laws. 



64 ORGANIIZEID CRIME EST ITSfTE'RSTATE COOVrMERiCE, 

The Chairiman. In connection with the book that has been offered 
in evidence, to ascertain whether you have any explanation to make 
of it, I have just picked at random on page 16 a series of statements 
under the month of July, headed "Monthly suggestions." It says: 

Here are some hot numbers for the hot clays of July : 318, 620, 074, 982. 

If von are planning a vacation, these numbers will help you to finance your 
trip : '501, 610, 442. 

Around the beginning of the month, watch for numbers 778, 452, and 910. 

In July we start the last half of the year. Start it right with 513, 018, 
and 539. 

Our extra special favorite number for July is 732. 

Doubles good to follow are 440 and 737. 

927 and 184 are best suggestions for .July in the late races and in the first 
10 days of the month and 320 and 726 in the early races. 

Is there anything further you care to say in regard to that ? 

Mr. LicAVOLi. No. 

Mr. Burling. Are you related to Sam Bommarito? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Joe Bommarito ? 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I am going to show the witness two 
police records of two different men, named Joe Bommarito, and ask 
the witness if he can tell which is which. There are two Joes. One 
is "Scarf ace," and what is the other one's name ? 

Mr. LiGAvoLi. Joe Bommarito. 

Mr. Burling. They are both Joe. One is identified as "Scarface," 
and the other is 

Mr. LicAvoLi. "Long Joe" Bommarito. 

Mr. Burling. I will show you this and ask you whether that is 
"Long Joe" or "Scarface"? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. I refuse to identify the records. I refuse to identify 
any records. 

Mr. Burling. In order to lay a formal foundation for a possible 
contempt citation, Mr. Chairman, I ask that a photograph and a police 
record of someone named Joe Bommarito be marked as an exhibit. 

The Chairman. All right. It will be marked and will be designated 
as No. 7. Will you be good enough to mark it, please, and then let the 
witness see it? 

(The document identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 7, and appears in the appendix on p. 268.) 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. I refuse to identify any records. 

The Chairman. The question asked of the witness pertains to ex- 
hibit No. 6. 

Mr. Burling. It includes a police photograph, Detroit Police photo- 
graph No. 37496. In my opinion, Mr. Chairman, the witness may prop- 
erly be asked to identify a photograph of an alleged hoodlum, espe- 
cially since he is confused as to which Joe Bommarito is which. I think 
it is pertinent for us to inquire into that. 

The Chairman. Would you first show him the other one, so he can 
be asked the question in conection with both ? 

Mr. Burling. Then may I ask that a second police record of one Joe 
Bommarito be marked "Exhibit No. 8"? 

The Chairman. All right. 

(The document identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 8, and appears in the appendix on p. 269.) 

Mr. Burling. Will you look- 



Mr. LicAvoLi. I refuse to answer- 



ORGANaZBD CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE; 65 

Mr. Burling. Let me finish my question. 

Mr. LicAvoLT. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Refrain, please, from interrupting any questions until 
I ask you them. I want to lay a proper foundation. We are not asking 
you anything about any activity which you may have had with either 
of these men. We are merely asking you to examine these two police 
records, one of which has a photograph attached to it with a number 
which corresponds to the number of the criminal record involved, 
and we want to know whether the man in the photograph is "Scarf ace" 
or "Long Joe." Will you answer that question ? 

Mr. LiCAVoLT. I refuse to identify any photographs or any records, 
on the ground that it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. The Chair directs you to answer. Is it our under- 
standing that the response is the same ? 

]Mr. LiCAVOLi. The same; yes. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Licavoli, I notice that in your income tax return 
for 1948 you report an item called "Speculations, $49,000." I wonder 
if you would care to tell us just what those speculations were. 

]NIr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may tend 
to incriminate me, in violation of both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Burling. Are you willing to tell us whether your brother-in-law 
is Long Joe or Scarf ace Bommarito ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Long Joe is my brother-in-law. 

Mr. Burling. You keep no records of your financial transactions, 
I believe ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer, on the grounds that it may tend 
to incriminate me, in violation of both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Burling. Did you tell that to Mr. Amis on January 19, 1951 ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I didn't have no records. 

Mr. Burling. You have no bank accounts, either; is that right? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer that, on the same grounds ; it may 
tend to incriminate me, in both the State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Burling. You did tell that to Mr. Amis, though — didn't you? — 
even though you won't tell us under oath. 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer that, on the same grounds. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever hear of the Mexico Villa House? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer, on the grounds it may tend to 
incriminate me under both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Burling. You don't deny that that is a numbers house ; do you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer, on the grounds it may tend to 
incriminate me under both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Burling. All right. Who is Abe Balaban ? 

Mr. Licavoli. [No response.] 

Mr. Burling. You never heard of him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever hear of the Gold Seal Liquor Co. at 
Chicago ? 

]\rr. Licavoli. I liave heard of that ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. What is your business with them? 

Mr. Licavoli. None whatsoever? 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever hear of the Willow Run Cleaners, 
located at 13164 Woodrow Wilson? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 



66 



ORGANIZE© CRIME IX USTTERSTATE COMMERCE; 



Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 



Burling. You were in it; were you, as a partner? 
LiCAVoLi. Yes, sir. 

And Scarf ace Bommarito was in it ? 

Joe Bommarito. 

I can't tell which Bommarito is which if I didn't use 



Burling, 

LiCAVOLI 

Burling. 
the nickname. 
Mr. LicAvoLi, 
Mr. Burling. 



Mr. LicAvoLi. 
Mr. Burling, 
apart by name ? 
Mr. LiGAvoLi, 
Mr. Burling. 



The name is Joe. 
They are both Joe ; aren't they ? 
Mr. LiCAvoLi. I don't know where you get Scarf ace. 
Mr. Burling. How do you distinguish one Joe from the other? 
Well, the name tells. 

You mean they are both Joe, but you can tell them 
I don't understand that. Will you explain that ? 
[No response.] 

What is the Chesterfield House? 
Mr, LicAvoLi. I refuse to answer, on the grounds that it may tend 
to incriminate me, under both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Burling. Isn't it the fact that that is the principal numbers 
house here in Detroit ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. I refuse to answer, on the grounds that it may tend 
to incriminate me, in violation of both State and Federal laws. 
Mr. Burling. Are you the top man in the Chesterfield House? 
Mr. LicAvoLi. I refuse to answer, on the grounds it may tend to in- 
criminate me under both State and Federal laws. 
Mr. Burling. Who is Mike Rubino, if you know ? 
A friend of mine. 
Would it be fair to describe him as one of your 



Mr, LiGAvoLi. 

Mr. Burling 
lieutenants ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. I refuse to answer, on the grounds it may tend to 
incriminate me under both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Burling. Who is Angelo Meli ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLI. A friend of mine. 

Mr. Burling. What does he do for a living, if you know ? 

Mr, LiCAVOLI. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever hear he is in the juke-box racket? 

Mr. LiCAVOLI. I don't know his business. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever ask him what business he was in ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLI. No. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever hear of the Bay Reeves Apartments 
in Miami, Fla. ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLI. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever buy an apartment building in Miami ? 
No, sir. 
Did you ever have any interest in real property in 



Mr. LiCAVOLI. 

Mr. Burling 
Miami ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLI. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. I think, 
this piece of paper is misfiled 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Mr. Burling. Now, how about the Fischetti brothers? 
friends of yours ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLI. I don't know them. 

Mr. Burling. You never met them ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLI, No. 



in fairness to the witness, I should say that 
There is no reason to suppose he did. 

Are they 



ORGAlSniZElD CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERlCE 67 

Mr. Burling. How about Joe Adonis? Do you know liim? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever hear of him ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. No, sir. Only what I read in the papers. 

Mr. Burling. Until Adonis' name was in the papers recently, you 
never heard of him? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Harry Bennett? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You never met him? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Didn't you recruit hoodlums for him? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. No, sir. 

Mr. BuRi.iNG. Did you ever recruit anybody, whether or not he was 
a hoodlum? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Do you deny that you recruited a squad of men 

Mr. LicAVOLi. I deny it; yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Licavoli, please wait until I finish the question. 
Did you not recruit a squad of men that were stationed in the Ford 
Motor Co.'s fire house to work in the service department? 

Mr. Licavoli. I did not. 

Mr. Burling. You did not? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

Mr. Burling. Is it not true that thereafter they were discharged 
by Bennett ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know nothing about it. 

Mr. Burling. You don't know nothing about that? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Is it not true that, following that, you said that you 
wished to see Bennett, and Bennett wouldn't see you? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. I don't know anything about it. 

The Chairman. Answer audibly, please. 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know anything about that. 

Mr. Burling. Didn't you force his car off the road in order to force 
him to talk to you? 

Mr. Licavoli. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Burling. Wasn't there a feud between you and Bennett ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. I don't even know the man. Never had no 
business dealings with him. 

Mr. Burling. Is it or is it not the fact that Bennett sent to New 
York for a Mafia leader to come out and adjudicate the dispute? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know what you are talking about. 

Mr. Burling. You have never heard of the Mafia? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. When did you first hear the word "Mafia" used? 

Mr. Licavoli. In the newspapers. 

Mr. Burling. What year? . 

Mr. Licavoli. Lately; recently. 

Mr, Burling. As a boy, you never heard the word "Mafia" used at 
all? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

Mr. Burling. How old are you, sir? 

Mr. Licavoli. Forty-eight. 



68 ORGAN'IZBD CRIME JN ESTTERSTATE GOMMERiCE 

Mr. Burling. Let's say up until you were 47 years old, you had 
never heard the word used? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Who is Angelo Lafata? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. I don't know Lafata. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I am going to show the witness a 
picture attached to a police record, and ask the witness if he knows 
who the man in the picture is. 

Mr. LicAVOLi. I don't know him. 

Mr. Bltrling. Who is Frank Cammarata ? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. My brother-in-law. 

Mr. Burling. Tell us how you are related to him. 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. He is married to my sister. 

Mr. Burling. You have a sister named Grace, and also a wife 
named Grace? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And he was convicted in Canada of a felony; was 
he not? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And after that he came to this country and got a 
sentence of 15 to 30 years; is that correct? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. And that was commuted on the condition that he 
depart to Italy; is that correct? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. I don't know the condition, sir. I know he was 
deported to Italy. 

Mr. Burling. You know that he didn't serve out the prison term, 
don't you ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Yes ; I know that. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever hear that a condition of his parole was 
that he be forthwith deported ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. Deported to Italy ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. And then he illegally reentered the country; is that 
right? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. I don't know if he illegally reentered. I couldn't 
answer that question. 

Mr. Burling. Wlien you saw him, how did he tell you he had 
gotten back in after he had been deported? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. I didn't see him until long after he was arrested. 

Mr. Burling. Didn't the FBI pick him up at your house in Grosse 
Pointe once? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. After he was arrested in Ohio ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. Yes ; but he was at your house. 

Mr. LicAvoLi. I wasn't there. 

Mr. Burling. But he was in your house when he was once picked 
up; is that right? 

Mr. LiGAvoLi. That's after he was arrested in Ohio, when the 
Immi gration 

Mr. Burling. But he was in your house. You knew he was de- 
ported, and then you saw him in your house, didn't you ? 

Mr. LiGAVOLi. No ; I saw him afterward — after he was arrested. 

Mr. Burling. Wliat does Mr. Cammarata do for a living ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. I don't know, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE C'OMMERlC'Ei 69 

Mr. Burling. What kind of political influence do you have, Mr, 
Licavoli, if you can get a Congressman to introduce a special bill to 
stay the deportation of Mr. Cainmarata after he had been convicted 
of two felonies and deported and then reentered the country illegally ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know anything about it. 

Mr. Burling. Don't you know a bill was introduced ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, at this point I ask leave to introduce 
H. R. 6286 of the Eightieth Congress, second session, a bill for relief 
of Francesco Cammarata. 

The Chairman. It will be marked and offered in evidence as 
exhibit No. 9. 

(The document identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 9, and appears in the appendix on p. 270.) 

Mr. Burling. Has Mr. Cammarata got any other powerful connec- 
tions except you ? 

jNIr. Licavoli. He hasn't got me. I have no part in it. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Senator Capehart ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Do I know him ? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Didn't you ask Senator Capehart to intervene in 
behalf of your brother-in-law? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. At this time, Mr. Chairman, I ask leave to read a 
photostat of a telegi*am addressed to Frank Cammarata, 236 Meadow- 
brook, Warren, Ohio. It is dated June 25, 1948 : 

Immigration just approved 90 days' stay. New York office being notified by 
teletype. Unnecessary you appear there INIonday. Writer may be necessary 
your bond. Proper authorities will advise you. 

Ray a. Donaldson, 
Administrative Assistant to Senator Capehart. 

I will ask you again: Did you ask Senator Capehart to intervene? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Congressman Kirwan? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know or have any idea why he intervened in 
this matter ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. It is your testimony that you did not at any time 
talk to anybody about having the deportation of Mr. Cammarata 
stayed ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Halley. You never had any discussion about it with anyone ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Not with Mr. Cammarata ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Mr. Cammarata, I talked to him, but I don't know 
what he has done, or anybody else has done. I have had no con- 
nections or talked with anybody. 

Mr. Halley. Did you suggest to Mr. Cammarata that he take any 
steps whatsoever ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You did not talk to anyone else at all about Mr. Cam- 
marata's deportation ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 



70 ORGA]SraZE(D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Al Polizzi ? 

Mr. LicAvOLi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Twenty years, twenty-five years. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business relations with him? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Milano ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. I know of him. 

Mr. Halley. You have never met him ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony or Anthony Milano ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You never met him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Doc Mangine ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Are you related to him directly or indirectly? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. A few years ; 5 or 6 years. 

Mr. Halley. Wlio is James Licavoli ? 

Mr. Licavoli. He is my cousin. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether or not James Licavoli recently 
was paroled from a penitentiary ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

Mr. Halley. In Ohio. 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you not know that Doc Mangine and James Lica- 
voli lived together after Licavoli was released? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. When did you last see Doc Mangine ? 

Mr. Licavoli. A few years back. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat is the nature of your relationship with Doc 
Mangine ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Just hello ; an acquaintance. 

Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I forget now, and don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know anybody by the name of Thompson ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

Mr. Halley. In the building business. 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know anybody by the name of Thompson who 
went on James Licavoli's parole with an offer of a job for him? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether or not James Licavoli actually 
went to work for Vincent Mangine when he got out of prison ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know where Vincent Mangine is now ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you not know that Mangine and Thompson are 
now in business with Al Polizzi in Florida ? 

Mr. Licavoli, No, I don't. 

Mr. Halley. When did you last see Al Polizzi ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I haven't seen him in 3 or 4 years. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN mTERSTATE GOMMERlCE 71 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Willie Moretti? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. He may be known to you as Willie Moore. 

Mr. LicAvoLi. I don't know him. 

Mr. Halley. Did he ever visit you at your ranch in Tuscon 1 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Gizzo ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. He lives in Kansas City. 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You do not know him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir, 

Mr. Halley. Did Joe Massei ever visit you at your ranch? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. At no time? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know John Angersola, sometimes known as 
John King ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, I know him. 

Mr. Halley, How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. About 20 years. 

Mr. Halley. He lives in Cleveland ; is that right ? 

Mr. Licavoli. In Florida, I believe, 

Mr. Halij5y. Now he lives in Florida, but comes from Cleveland ; 
is that right ? 

Mr. Licavoli. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business with him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir, 

Mr. Halley, Where did you meet him ? Under what circumstances ? 

Mr, Licavoli. In Cleveland, 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever work or have business in Cleveland? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What brought you to Cleveland ? 

]Mr. Licavoli. Just a visit. 

Mr. Halley. Whom did you visit in'Cleveland? 

Mr. Licavoli. Friend of mine. I forget now, it was so long ago. 

Mr. Halli:y. Was Al Polizzi one of the friends you visited? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't recall, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever visit any of the King boys in Cleveland ? 
John King? 

Mr. Licavoli, Johnny King ; yes, 

Mr. Halley. You did visit them ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. What is your business ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer, on the grounds that it may tend to 
incriminate me both under State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any legitimate business? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer, on the grounds that it may tend to 
incriminate me under both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had a legitimate business ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer, on the ground that it will tend to 
incriminate me under both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had a legitimate business ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 



72 ORGANIZED CRIME IK INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. What was the last legitimate business you had? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. I refuse to answer, on the grounds that it may tend to 
incriminate me under both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had a legitimate business within the last 5 
years ? 

Mr. LicAVOLi. I refuse to answer, on the grounds that it may intend 
to incriminate me under both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Halley. Did you operate your ranch as a business ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Just as a residence ? 

Mr. LicAVOLi. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Then you did not operate it as a business ? That is 
your testimony ? You did not operate the ranch as a business ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. I have certain sections of it 

Mr. BuELiNG. Did you or did you not ? 

Mr. LicAVOLi. I have certain sections of it operating as a horse 
ranch as a business. But on my private residence there is no busi- 
ness, just a private ranch. 

Mr. Burling. But you take deductions for the loss of the operations 
of the ranch on your income tax ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Just the horses. 

Mr. Halley. Do you Iniow Mickey Cohen? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did he ever visit you at your ranch ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Little Augie Pisano? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in Florida ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. In Miami or Miami Beach? 

Mr. Licavoli. Miami Beach. 

Mr. Halley. When were you last there ? 

Mr. Licavoli. 1928 or 1929. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you stay there ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I forget the cottage in Hollywood. 

Mr. Halley. You rented it ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Halley, Did you ever own a home in Florida ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You have not been to Florida since 1929 ? 

Mr. Licavoli. In 1928 or something like that. I can't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Since 1929, have you had a legitimate business of any 
kind ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer on the ground that it may intend 
to incriminate me both under State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Halley. I am talking about a legitimate business. 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer on the ground that it may intend 
to incriminate me under both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Halley. You have income from some source, do you not ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may intend 
to incriminate me under both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Halley. Did you pay income taxes last year ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 



ORGAJSnZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE ClOMMERiCE 73 

ISIr. Halley. Then you must have had income to pay a tax on. 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Was that income based on any legitimate source? 

Mr. LicAVOLi. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Halley. I am not asking about anything illegitimate, and I 
am just asking you to name any legitimate source. 

Mr. LicAVOLi. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may intend 
to incriminate me under both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Halley. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. The Chair directs that you answer the last question. 

Mr. LicAvoLi. I refuse to ansAver on the grounds that it may intend 
to incriminate me under both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Burling. I have just one or two more questions. 

In 19J:9 you returned in your income-tax return an even $42,000' 
for speculations. I do not want to know if that amount is correct, 
but just want to know how can you speculate so as to come out to a 
flat $42,000 and not odd numbers? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may intend 
to incriminate me under both State and Federal laws. 

Mr. Burling. I suppose you won't tell us what the speculations 
were ? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Pete Corrado ? 

Mr. Lu'AvoiJ. Yes. 

]Mr. BuRLiNti. How well do you know him ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Just an acquaintance, to say "Hello." 

]\Ir. Burling. Where is he ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling, Neither do I. Did you ever hear him referred to as 
the "Enforcer" ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. He is your "enforcer," isn't he ? 

Mr. LiCAvoLi. No, sir. 

ISIr. Burling. That is all. 

The Chairman. Now, that concludes the interrogation by counsel. 
I now desire to make an announcement. A series of questions were 
asked of you by counsel which appeared to the committee to be proper 
questions of interrogation, and are such that you have no right to 
refuse to answer on the grounds that they may tend to incriminate 
you for a Federal offense. 

I want, first of all, to ask if you desire to modify your position 
and to answer any of the questions, or whether you persist in your 
refusal to answer? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. I do. 

The Chairman. Tliat being so, it is incumbent upon this com- 
mittee, because it is our opinion that the questions are proper ques- 
tions and should be answered by you, to state to you that it will be 
recommended to the full committee that a citation for contempt be- 
issued against you. 

You are excused. 

Mr. Halley. Ma}^ I ask just one question again, because I want 
to be sure the witness understood it. 

You say you do not know Willie Moretti ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. No. 



74 ORGANIZED CRIME IK INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Who is sometimes known as Willie Moore ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. No. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever heard of him ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. I have heard of him. 

Mr. Halley. He comes from New Jersey ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You do not know him ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You never met him ? 

Mr. LiCAVOLi. No sir. 

Mr. Halley, He never visited your ranch ? 

Mr. LicAvoLi. No, sir. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF WILLARD HOLT, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. The next witness is Willard Holt. 

Do you swear the testimony you will o:ive this committee will be 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothino- but the truth, so help you 
God? 

Mr. Holt. I do. 

The Chairman. What is your full name? 

Mr. Holt. Willard Holt. 

The Chairman. Your address? 

Mr. Holt. 487 Selden. 

The Chairman, Mr. Holt, at the outset, let me ask you to keep 
your voice up so that the official reporters and others can hear you. 
Will you do so ? 

Mr. Holt. I will. 

Mr. Burling. Mr, Holt, going back to the years around 1935 or 1936, 
did you become employed by the Ford Motor Co. ? 

Mr. Holt. I did. 

Mr. Burling. After some months, were you employed at the service 
department? 

Mr. Holt. Well, I was employed one time in the service ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. Will you tell us in just a word what the service de- 
partment at Ford was ? 

Mr. Holt. Well, it was what is known as the plant protection de- 
partment today. 

Mr. Burling. What were the duties of the service department back 
in the thirties, very briefly ? 

Mr. Holt, The service department w\as to guard the gate, mostly, 
and they had men in through the plant watching for fires, and that 
sort of thing, patrolmen. 

Mr. Burling. Occasionally they would beat up strikers and union 
leaders ? 

Mr. Holt. I don't know about that. 

Mr. Burling. Who is the head of the service department, or who 
was the head when you were employed there ? 

Mr. Holt. You mean the personnel director of Ford ? 

Mr. Burling. I want to know the name of the man who was at the 
head of the service department. 



ORGAMZBD CRIME IN ESTTE ESTATE CiOMMERiCE 75 

Mr. Holt. The head of the service department was a man by the 
name of Everett Moore. He was the foreman of the service depart- 
ment, or superintendent of the service department. 

Mr. Burling. To whom did he report ? 

Mr. Holt. To Harry Bennett. 

Mr. Burling. What was — at the time that you started there, what 
was your understanding as to the origin of the men who worked in 
the service department? 

]\Ir. Holt. \Yell, to guard the plant. 

]\Ir. Burling. Perhaps to refresh your recollection, my notes tell 
me that you said the other day in my office about half the men who 
were in that group seemed to be left over from Joe Tocco's gang and 
half came from Joe Massei. Did you say that ? 

Mr. Holt. I never made that statement. 

Mr. Burling. Did you work for a man named Gillespie? 

Mr. Holt. I do. 

Mr. Burling. Would you state whether or not Mr. Gillespie ever 
told you anything about the recruitment of a gang, or, rather, a group 
of auxiliary guards to work, or, rather, who were stationed in the 
fire house? 

Mr. Holt. We did. We recruited at that time a so-called squadron 
for that particular purpose. 

Mr. Burlin(^t. For what particular purpose? 

Mr. Holt. Well, for the purpose that if there was trouble any place, 
for that particular group to go there. 

Mr. Bltrling. What kind of trouble? If a machine broke down? 

Mr. Holt. Oh, no, Violence. 

Mr. Burling. If there was any violence in the plant, this particular 
group was stationed at the fire house and was supposed to go there and 
quell the violence; is that it? 

Mr. Holt. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Who did you say recruited that group ? 

Mr. Holt. Well, I guess Gillespie and I had as much to do with it as 
anybody else. 

Mr. Burling. I have to advise the committee that the witness is 
now changing his testimony from that which he gave me. The wit- 
ness has stated that the previous witness, Licavoli, recruited the group. 
Do you deny you stated tliat? 

Mr. Holt. I deny that statement ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. You did not say that to me and Mr. Amis? 

Mr. Holt. I didn't say that Licavoli recruited that group. 

Mr. Burling. That he recruited that group 

Mr. Holt. You misunderstood me and the statement. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, will you admonish the witness of the 
danger of perjui^y prosecution? 

The CHAiR:\rAN. Of course, it is entirely in order for you to be ad- 
vised that you are under oath. 

Mr. Holt. That is right. 

The Chairman. As such, of course, you are required to testify truth- 
fully to any questions which are asked of you. Of course, you are not 
to be coerced or intimidated or forced in any way. However, if any 
answers that are given are not in conformity with the truth, you are 
amenable to prosecution. 



76 ORG'ANHZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

]Mr. Holt. Mr. Bnrlino; misunderstood the statement at the time, 
possibly. I think that if we go back on it — that we recruited that 
group in there. And he asked me at the time 

The Chairman. Who asked you ? 

Mr. Holt. This gentleman here [indicating]. 

The Chairman. Indicating Mr. Burling. 

Mr. Burling. Did I participate in recruiting this group ? 

Mr. Holt. You asked me the other day in the office where we got 
that group from. 

The Chairman. . What did you say ? 

Mr. Holt. I told him that I thought they came from different 
sources. He asked me if Licavoli was one of them. I said yes, prob- 
ably he was. 

The Chairman. You still say that? 

Mr. Holt. I still think so ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. May I read from the brief which I dictated very soon 
after I spoke to Mr. Holt? Mr. Amis, our chief investigator, also 
spoke to Mr. Holt at an earlier date and prepared a memorandum. 
My brief reads: "He"— that is, Mr. Holt — "was told by Gillespie a 
special squad of about 30 men in the fii-e house were recruited by Pete 
Licavoli." 

Mr. Holt. That was the wrong statement. I didn't mean that — 
that statement made — I am testifying here under oath now, as I un- 
derstand. 

Mr. Burling. Did you lie to me ? Is that your point? 

Mr. Holt. I am not expecting to tend to lie to anj^one. 

Mr. Burling. You deny you made the statement I just read? 

Mr. Holt. I think you misconstrued the statement. I think that 
you misunderstood the statement. I think that you misunderstood 
the statement that I made. 

Mr. Burling. Was Mr. Amis present when I questioned you? 

Mr. Holt. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Did you say that the men were paid at the regular rate 
of $6 a day? 

Mr. Holt. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Did you say that after a little while you heard from 
Gillespie that Licavoli was sore about that because he wanted a higher 
rate paid, so that he could get a kick-back? 

Mr. Holt. I still think that you are building up some of my state- 
ments. No, I think the statement that I made was that INIr. Gillespie 
told me that Licavoli thought that those men ought to have $15 a day. 

Mr. Burling. Well, did Mr. Gillespie tell you why, that is, what 
reason Licavoli gave for thinking they ought to have $15 a clay? 

Mr. Holt. No ; he didn't give me any reason. 

Mr. Burling. Now, when Licavoli said they should have $15 a day, 
what, according to what you were told, did Bennett do ? 

Mr. Holt. Well, Gillespie told me that Pete told him they ought 
to have $15 a day. I said, "Are you going to tell Mr. Bennett that?" 
He said, "Yes." I said, "Well, "there won't be anybody left here if 
he does." 

Mr. Burling. Will you go on with the statement ? 

Mr. Holt. Well, I think that is exactly what happened, that the 
next day they were all let go. 

Mr. Burling. Tell us a little more details, please. 



ORGANIZE'D CRIME EST INTERSTATE CIOMMERCE 77 

Mr, Holt. I don't know what other details I coiikl give you. 

Mr. Burling. Give me the same details you gave me in my office 
about 2 days ago. 

JNIr. Holt. That they were taken down and let go, that Bennett 
wanted them out of there; they were only in there for a week, pos- 
sibly, or maybe 2 weeks, at the most. 

Mr. Burling. Do you not remember, Mr. Holt, telling me in Mr. 
Amis' presence in my office only a day or so ago that (xillespie said 
it to you, or, rather, Bennett asked Gillespie how long it would take 
to get those guys out of there ? 

Mr. Holt. Gillespie told me that ; yes. When he came out, Bennett 
said 15 minutes was soon enough. That was Gillespie's statement. 

Mr. Burling. Bennett asked him how long it would take to get him 
out, and Gillespie said 15 minutes, and Bennett said, "Get them out.'^ 
Is that right? 

Mr. Holt. That is right. He wanted them out. 

INIr. Burling. All right. And so they got out; is that right? 

INIr. Holt. That is right ; they were dismissed. 

Mr. Burling. Now, did Gillespie tell you that Licavoli then tried 
to talk to Bennett, but Bennett refused to talk to him ? 

IMr. Holt. Well, I have heard that ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. Gillespie? 

Mr. Holt. Yes; that was John Gillespie who told me that Pete 
came out there to talk to Bennett. 

Mr. Burling. Do you recall Gillespie also telling you a day or so 
later that somebody had forced Bennett's car off the road and that 
Bennett had started shooting? 

Mr. Holt. Something like that happened at the present time ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. It did not happen at the present time. It happened 
back in 1938 or 1939. 

Mr. Holt. That is a long time ago to remember a lot of things. 

Mr. Burling. It did not happen yesterday ? 

Mr. Holt. No. 

IVIr. Burling. It is back when you were working for Gillespie ? 

Mr. Holt. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. It was in the newspapers that Bennett had done 
this? 

Mr. Holt. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Gillespie told you who forced the car off the road, did 
he not ? 

Mr. Holt. No; I wouldn't make that statement as to who forced 
the car off the road. 

Mr. Bi'RLiNG. I am not asking you who forced the car off the road. 
Did not Gillespie tell you who Bennett said 

Mr. Holt. He did not tell me that. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, if I may, I would like to invite the 
attention of the United States attorney to this. My notes, which I 
dictated, have an interview with Mr. Holt only a couple of days ago, 
and I dictated them almost immediately after I saw Mr. Holt. It 
reads as follows : 

Gillespie told me the man who forced Bennett's car off the road was Licavoli. 

Now, did you say that, or didn't you ? 

68958 — 51— pt. 9 6 



78 ORGANIZE© CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Holt. I don't remember making that statement, no; and I 
wouldn't be in a position to know. As far as I know, Gillespie never 
said anything about Licavoli ever forcing him off the road. 

Mr. Burling. It may have been a pure fabrication of j^our imagin- 
ing, but didn't you tell me that, whether it is a fabrication or not ? 

Mr. Holt. No ; I didn't tell you that. 

Mr. Burling. I made this up ? 

Mr. Holt. Well, I don't know where you got it from, but I cer- 
tainly do not remember telling you anything. 

Mr. Burling. I advise you that Mr. Amis is going to be the next 
witness. If he says he heard you say that, he is a liar? Is that your 
position ? 

Mr. Holt. I am not saying that anybody is a liar. You asked me to 
tell the truth as near as I can tell it to you, and I am telling it. 

Mr. Burling. Did you lie to me in my room ? 

Mr. Holt. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Burling. Hiis anybody gotten to you since you came to see 
me? 

Mr. Holt. Nobody has ever been around to see me. 

Mr. Burling. Are you afraid? 

Mr. Holt. I am afraid of nothing; no, sir. I have nothing to be 
afraid of. 

Mr. Bi;rling. Didn't j^ou further state that BMmetf. after Licavoli 
forced him off the road, called up somebody in New York connected 
with the Mafia, and had somebody come out and adjudicate the dis- 
pute ? Did you or didn't you say that ? 

Mr. Holt. You asked me that question, and I said, "Yes," that I 
was told that there was a man coming in here from New York. 

Mr. BuRLixG. From the Mafia, I said. 

Mr. Holt. Well, I don't know exactly what the Mafia is. 

Mr. Burling. The question is, Did you say it? Do you know what 
the Mafia is? 

Mr. Holt. I beg your pardon. You asked me about a certain party 
at that time, if I remember right. You asked me a question about a 
certain man and what his connection was with the Ford Motor Co. 
and what I knew about that particular man. I answered you that 
question. I didn't say that anybody from Italian Mafia or anything 
else had been brought in, and you asked me what that particular man's 
connection is. Am I right or wrong? 

Mr. Burling. I am going to have a witness testify to that, Mr. Holt. 
You deny that you told me that Bennett called in the Mafia to adjudi- 
cate the dispute? 

Mr. Holt. I didn't say that. 

Mr. Burling. You deny it? 

Mr. Holt. I deny it; yes. 

The Chairman. All right. You may be excused. 
(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. I call Mr. William Amis to the stand. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM D. AMIS, INVESTIGATOR FOR THE 
COMMITTEE, WASHINGTON, D. C. 

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you will give this com- 
mittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so hell) yoi^^ God? 

Mr, Amls. I do. 



ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 79 

The Chairman. What is your full name, please? 

Mr. Amis. William D. Amis. 

The Chairman. Mr. Amis, what is your position? 

Mr. Amis. Investigator for the United States Senate committee. 

The Cjiair^ian. IMr. Amis, will you be good enough to keep your 
voice up and answ^er the questions? Thank you. 

Mr. Burling. How long have you been with this committee, Mr. 
Amis ? 

Mr. Amis. Since September 8. 

Mr. Burling. How long have you been working for the United 
States Government? 

Mr. Amis. Intermittently, about 15 years. 

Ml". Burling. And most of that time it has been work of an investi- 
gative nature? 

Mr. Amis. It has been. 

Mr. Blhrling. Are you accustomed to hearing witnesses? 

Mr. Amis. I am. 

Mr. Burling. Did you, at my request and prior to my arrival in 
Detroit, call in and interview Mr. Holt? 

Mr. Amis. I did. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ask him any questions with regard to the 
recruitment of a gang in a service department of Ford Motor Co. ? 

Mr. Amis. I did. 

Mr. Burling. Did he tell you who had recruited that gang? 

Mr. Amis. It is my understanding that he said they were recruited 
by Bennett, through Licavoli. 

Mr. Burling. That is, Pete Licavoli ? 

Mr. Amis. Yes. 

Mr. Burling, Did he tell you at that time anything wdth regard to 
the discharge of that group ; how it came about ? 

Mr. Amis. As I remember, he said that Bennett wanted to discharge 
these people, and he asked Gillespie how long it would take him to 
get ritl of them, and he said 15 minutes. 

Ml". Burling. Did he say anything about Licavoli in connection 
with that discharge? 

Mr. Amis. Well, Licavoli was dissatisfied because he wasn't getting 
a cut on the salary for these men. 

Mr. Burling. Did he tell you anything as to what he had heard 
from any person as to wdio forced Bennett's car off the road shortly 
thereafter ? 

Mr. Amis. Mr. Holt said he had heard through Gillespie and ru- 
mors that it was Pete Licavoli who had forced the car off the road. 

Mr, Burling. Did he or did he not tell you that thereafter Bennett 
caused the Mafia in New York to arbitrate the dispute ? 

Mr. Amis. He said that after that incident, Bennett called someone 
from New York who he considered the Mafia. 

Mr. Burling. He came out 

Mr. Amis. To settle the dispute between Licavoli and Bennett. 

Mr. Burling. Do you hap])en to remember the date when Holt came 
in again and was interviewed by me in your presence? 

Mr. Amis. I don't recall, 

Mr. Burling. It was this week ? 

Mr. Amis, It was this week ; yes. 



80 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. Well, then, it must have been either Monday or 
Tuesday? 

Mr. Amis. Monday or Tuesday, that is right. 

Mr. Burling. Did I question Holt at some length ? 

Mr. Amis. You did. 

Mr. Burling. Did he say to me substantially the same thing that 
he said to you { 

Mr. Amis. Yes ; he did. 

Mr. Burling. With respect to Licavoli ? 

Mr. Amis. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling. And did he especially say that he understood through 
Gillespie that Licavoli had forced Bennett's car off the road, and also 
that Bennett had sent for the Mafia to arbitrate the dispute ? 

Mr. Amis. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Thank you. 

The Chairman. That will be all. Thank you. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. We will call Harry Bennett. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Bennett. 1 do. 

TESTIMONY OF HAREY KERBEET BENNETT, DESEBT HOT 
SPRINGS, CALIF. 

The Chairman. Your full name, please? 

Mr. Bennett. Harry Herbert Bennett. 

The Chairman. Mr. Bennett, your address is what? 

Mr. Bennett. Box 206, Desert Hot Springs, Calif. 

The Chairman. And have you 

, Mr. Bennett. I am not in Desert Hot Springs. That is the 
nearest 

The Chairman. That is the nearest post office? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

The Chairman. For what period have you lived there? 

Mr. Bennett. About 3 years. We have been going out there for 
about 10 or 12 years. 

The Chairman. And prior to that, did you live in this city? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. Not in Detroit, no ; Ann Arbor. 

The Chairman. I mean, in this State? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

The Chairhian. And for what period did you live in Michigan? 

Mr. Bennett. All my life. 

The Chairman. Mr. Bennett, coidd I ask you at the very outset if 
you will be good enough to keep your voice up in response to the 
questions so that all may hear you ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. Shall I move closer to this microphone? 

The Chairman. That may help, too, but it will assist us all if you 
Avill keep your voice up. Thank you very much. 

Counsel, will you proceed, please? 

Mr. Burling. When did you first go to work for the Ford Motor 
Co.? 



ORGAMZHD CRIME IK INTERSTATE COMMERiCE. 81 

Mr. Bennett. I think rig-iit at the beginning of the war. Don't 
try to catch me on dates. I never made a note in my life. 

Mr. Burling. You don't believe much in files, I take it, Mr. 
Bennett ? 

Mr. Bennett. Not at all ; no. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read into the record, 
because of the fact that Mr. Bemiett was too ill to come here, a letter 
from Dr. Frank C. Melone, of 124 East F Street, Ontario, Calif. : 
"United States Senate Committee on Organized Crime," and then 
the address : 

Gentlemen : At the request of Mr. H. R. Van Brunt, I accompanied him to 
the ranch of Mr. Harry Bennett in Desert Hot Springs, Calif., to investigate the 
health of Mr. Bennett. Mr. Bennett was ambulatory and stated that he had 
arthritis of the spine, right knee, both ankles and both hands, and a chronic sinus 
infection. He has not been taking any medication or treatments except for 
sun baths and hot mineral water baths. He states that his arthritis has improved 
in the desert climate and a return to the cold climate now present in the East 
would be detrimental to his health. He still has symptoms of pain and swell- 
ing, but they are not severe and his condition does permit him to take periodic 
horseback rides. 

The patient permitted an examination which revealed he does have a chronic 
sinusitis and arthritis of the cervical spine, both hands, right knee, and both 
ankles. 

It is felt that this man will suffer some discomfort due to a cold climate but 
he is not endangering his life or permanently endangering his health by making 
such a trip. There are undoubtedly thousands of people with the same ailment 
living in the cold climate now existing in the Eastern States and getting along 
without too much discomfort. This was explained to Mr. Bennett and I feel 
that he is satisfied as to the correctness of that opinion. 
Yours very truly, 

Feank C. Melone, M. D. 

We are sorry if you do feel discomfort, but the committee feels that 
3^our presence here, in view of the testimony already taken and to be 
taken is the imperative. 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Now, shortly after World War I, you started in with 
the Ford Motor Co. ; is that right ? 

Mr. Bennett, Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And where did you start to work? 

Mr. Bennett. I started first at New York, 1610 Broadway, I think. 
That's the branch there in New York. 

Mr. Burling. When did you come to Detroit or the Detroit area? 

Mr. Bennett. Shortly after. Two weeks after that, I came back to 
Detroit. 

Mr. Burling. What did you do when you got here ? 

Mr. Bennett. I want to Highland Park for Mr. Ford. 

Mr. Burling. Did you found the service department at the Ford 
Motor Co. ? 

]Mr. Bennett. No. A man named Kelley had already had the 
service. 

]Mr. Burling. When did you become the chief of the service de- 
partment? 

Mr. Bennett. I never w^as the chief of the service. 

Mr. Burling. You supervised it, did you not ? 

Mr. Bennett. I supervised anything that was wrong. That is, if 
there was a department wrong, I was sent in to straighten it up, any 
department. 



82 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSaATE CiOMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. Who determined the policy of the service depart- 
ment ? 

Mr. Bennett. I would — mostly Mr. Ford's policy. 

Mr. Burling. Who determined upon the policy, if it was the policy — 
if it was the policy of hiring persons with criminal records? 

Mr. Bennett. That was Mr. Ford's idea. 

Mr, Burling. Did he ever explain to you what his idea was? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. If you will let me tell that — it has never been 
explained, but these fellows around Detroit can tell you that there 
was a four-time-loser law. Maybe you know what I am talking about. 
If a man was convicted four times, maybe for drunkenness, or four 
convictions, he was sent up for life. 

Mr. Burling. I see. 

Mr. Bennett. And he thought there were a lot of people in our 
organization that ought to be up for life, so he asked me if I wouldn't 
look into it and see if that was true, and I did. 

Mr. Burling. In other words, Mr. Henry Ford, the elder, asked 
you to engage in some legal research ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. He asked me to find out, and it was explained 
to me, and I brought back the answer to him. Then whatever — I'll 
tell you, whatever would come up in the newspaper, maybe there 
would be some young fellow's picture that would be up for maybe 
embezzlement or something like that, and it showed the background. 
It would be a sob story. Mr. Ford would send me out and we would 
watch that case to try to get him back into the plant. 

Mr. Burling. I see. In other words, Mr. Ford, whenever Mr. 
Ford's heart was touched by some pathetic story, would send you to 

Mr. Bennett. Or Mrs. Ford. 

Mr. Burling. Or Mrs. Ford? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; and we did that. 

Mr. Burling. And you would take care of things? 

Mr. Bennett. We did that and we got publicity, and that brought 
on thousands of calls from inmates in prison. 

Mr. Burling. And that is how the policy of hiring persons with 
criminal records came about ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, yes ; criminal records, if you call those criminal 
records. We took very few criminals back — that is, what I call crimi- 
nals. We took "Legs" Lehman — do you want that? Am I out of 
order or do ypu want to ask me that? "Legs" Lehman was a kid- 
naper. He agreed to give all the information to the officers if he 
would get him out of prison. Now, he was paroled to me. He lasted 
5 days and I have never seen him since. 

Mr. Burling. Isn't it a fact that many criminals were paroled 
either to you or persons that you arranged to have 

Mr. Bennett. Not that kind. 

Mr. Burling. It is your testimony that real felons, gangsters, and 
hoodlums w^ere not 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, no, no. 

Mr. Burling. Let me finish the question. You never knowingly, 
with the exception of this one man, recruited a man with a real crimi- 
nal record for the service department? 

Mr. Bennett. No, never. 

Mr. Burling. The only criminals that were taken on the service 
department were taken on for purely humanitarian reasons? 



ORGAN'IZEiD CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 83 

Mr, Bennett. Tliey weren't all taken on the service department. 

Mr. Burling. I am just talking about the service department. 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, well, I don't know. I don't know of any crimi- 
nals I had in the service department. Kid McCoy, they called him 
a criminal. 

INIr. BuRLiNO. It is your testimony you know of no man with a 
criminal record that was employed in the service department during 
your regime at the Ford Motor Co. ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know of anyone with a criminal record. 

Mr. Burling. If anyone was employed anywhere in the Ford Motor 
Co. who had any criminal record, it would be one of the sob-story 
cases, is that right ? 

Mr. Benneitt. Not always, no. It was the case of Chester LaMarr — 
well, when we had the fruit — we had a man come out and deliver fruit 
to our grocery store there. He was shot through the head. Evidently 
they left him for dead. He didn't die. 

Mr. Burling. Chester LaMarr did not die? 

Mr. Bennett. Not Chester LaMarr. I am giving you the reason 
for Chester LaMarr — Mr. Ford heard about it and the papers wrote 
it up, and he came to me and he said, "By God, we will straighten this 
out," and that was the first time he started wanting me to get in touch 
with some people that would stojo that. 

Mr. Burling. Did you get in touch with the underworld ? 

Mr. Bennett. No; I got in touch with the United States Secret 
Service. 

Mr. Burling. Who in the Secret Service? 

Mr. Bennett. Joe Palmer and there was Burt Brown. They 
brought Chester LaMarr in to me and said he was on parole. I offered 
to take him into the plant on parole and give him something. After 
I talked to him a while I saw he didn't want to work so we offered 
him to — asked him if he could name someone in the fruit concession — 
that we had asked him if they'd take him in and he named a man 
named Balogna. Who Balogna was, I don't know him. He was a 
fruit dealer. 

Mr. Burling. Let us address ourselves to Chester LaMarr. How 
did he get the concession ? 

Mr. Bennett. Balogna got the concession. 

Mr. Burling. At the time they shot Chester LaMarr, Joe Tocco 
had the concession, is that right ? 

Mr. Bennett. Joe Tocco never had a concession. 

Mr. Burling. Did Tocco have anything to do with the Ford Motor 
Co.? 

Mr. Bennett. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. As far as you Iniow, was he ever at the plant? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; his son did — I put his son in the trade school for 
him. That was for the help on something he did for us. 

Mr. Burling. Now, I ask you to case your mind back about 20 years. 
Did you say that Joe Tocco did not have a concession ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; Joe Tocco had no concession. 

Mr. Burling. You laiew Joe Tocco ? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh. sure, everybody in Detroit knew him. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Bennett, along that line, so I will not have to ask 
a long list of questions, can you think of a well-known hoodlum in 
Detroit that you do not know ? 



84 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCEi 

Mr. Bennett, A lot of them. I am not going to call them a hoodlum 
today. I don't know any. You are talking about 20 years ago. I 
knew a lot of them. If you want to call them a hoodlum, there is Joe 
Tocco and Joe Morena and LaMarr — the whole LaMarr crowd. 

Mr. Burling. You knew them ? 

Mr. Bennett. Sure. 

Mr. Burling. I am asking if there is any hoodlum around here you 
did not know ? 

Mr. Bennett. I suppose there is a lot of them I don't know. You 
name the hoodlums and I will tell you whether I know them or not. 

Mr. Burling. I just hoped we could save some time. You know Joe 
Massei ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I never met him. 

Mr. Burling. How about Pete Corrado ? 

Mr. Bennett. I never heard of him. 

Mr. Burling. Is this the first time you ever heard his name? 

Mr. Bennett. The first time I ever heard his name. 

Mr. Burling. How about the Bommarito brothers ? 

Mr. Bennett, I have heard of them. I don't know them, I never 
met them in my life. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, Chester LaMarr had a concession in one 
of your plants ? 

Mr. Bennett. He didn't have a concession ? 

Mr. Burling. What did he have ? 

Mr. Bennett. Balogna had the concession. He went in with 
Balogna. 

Mr. Burling. If he went in with him, he had a concession or part of 
a concession ? 

Mr. Bennett. We did business with Balogna. LaMarr didn't know 
a banana from an orange. 

Mr. Burling. What was he doing ? 

Mr. Bennett. He brought them in and wanted to stop people being 
shot. 

Mr. Burling. Why did you not call the police instead of Chester 
LaMarr? 

Mr. Bennett. I think the police agreed with him to do what I did 
do right then. 

Mr. Burling. I wonder if you would explain what it is you did. At 
least I cannot understand your justification there. 

Mr. Bennett. At that time, and if you were here at that time, which 
you weren't, we had about five factions around there, all of them quar- 
reling. Every week end there would be people found dead. 

Mr. Burling. Gang fights ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Tell us the gangs and identify them. 

Mr. Bennett. No, sir. 

Mr. BuRi.iNG. You refuse to ? Will you tell us who they were ? We 
would like to know. 

Mr. Bennett. You know as well as I do — do you want me to get my 
head blown off out here ? 

Mr. Burling. I think your association is such that you are probably 
safe, Mr. Bennett. 

Mr. Bennett. I am safe, sure. 



ORGANIZEID CRIME UST INTERSTATE COMMERCE; 85 

Mr. Burling. Now, will you just tell us what the factions were — the 
gang factions ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, there is the East Side faction. 

Mr. Burling. Who was in the East Side faction? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know who they were. 

Mr. Burling. You have no idea ? 

Mr. Bennett. Only when the newspapers would come with them. 
I know who the West Side faction was — Chet LaMarr's outfit. 

Mr. Burling. Who else was in that with Chet LaMarr ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know. They weren't steady workers on that 
job, you know — a job here and there and be killed. 

Mr. Burling. Now we come to the West Side, and you do not know 
anybody in the East Side faction? 

Mr. Benneitt. No ; I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. There was the West Side faction with Chet LaMarr? 

Mr. Bennett. Dow^nriver crowd. 

Mr.. Burling. That is D'Anna and Massei ? 

Mr. Bennett. No; I never knew Tony D'Anna as a gangster in 
my life. He came in after all this was over. He was a kid those 
days. 

Mr. Burling. He came in about a week after LaMarr was over, did 
he not ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. He came in to talk to me before LaMarr. 

Mr. Burling. He did not come in to talk to you — you sent for him ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; that isn't so. That is absolutely not so. I never 
sent for Tony D'Anna in my life. 

Mr. Burling. Well, now that we are on Tony D'Anna, suppose you 
tell us when you first heard of him. 

Mr. Bennett. I met him with Louis Colombo on Woodward Ave- 
nue, in a fight — an arena there. 

Mr. Burling. That is wdiere you first met him ? 

Mr. Bennett. That is where I first met him. 

Mr. Burling. Who introduced you to him ? 

Mr. Bennett. Louis Colombo. 

Mr. Burling. Who is he ? 

Mr, Bennett. He was an attorney at that time, our attorney. 

Mr. Burling. At the Ford Motor'Co. ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. AVhat did he say to you about D'Anna? 

Mr. Bennett. Not a thing, just D'Anna came over and Louis in- 
troduced me to him. There was nothing said about it. 

Mr. Burling. When was this? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, I couldn't tell you — a long time ago. That was 
during Chet LaMarr's time, but Tony wasn't mixed up in any of that 
as far as I know. 

Mr. Burling. You met Tony before Chet got knocked off ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Did you talk to D'Anna at that time ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. Just remarked about the boxers that were 
boxing. 

Mr. Burling. Did Colombo tell you what D'Anna was doing? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Burling. Had you heard of D'Anna before? 

Mr. Bennett. No. Never heard of him. 



86 ORGANIZE© CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERlCE; 

Mr. Burling. When is the next time you saw D'Aniia? 

Mr. Bennett. I can't tell you the next time. Later on the police 
department brought him in. 

Mr. Burling. Who did? 

Mr. Bennett. The police department, chief of police down at 
Wyandotte. 

Mr. Burling. River Rouge? 

Mr. Bennett. Wyandotte or River Rouge, one of the two places. 

Mr. Burling, That is the second time? 

Mr. Bennnett. I don't know whether it is the second time. Those 
fellows come in like flies in and out. 

Mr. Burling. Wliat was D'Anna's reputation at that time? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know of any reputation he had. I just knew 
that he was an orphan by his folks being dead — his father was killed 
and the others that was the general rule here. 

Mr. Burling. It w^as the general rule that his father and uncles had 
been murdered? 

Mr. Bennet'i. I don't know about his uncle. I knew about his 
father. 

The Chairman. Was the chief of police to whom you referred, 
Walter Hancock? 

Mr, Bennett. Well, "Jad" — I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. Have you seen him here today ? 

Mr. Bennett. I saw him in there. The first time I loaned him 
$40 

The Chairman. I am trying to identify the individual. 

Mr. Bennett. I loaned him $40. This is the first time I have seen 
him since. That was 15 years ago. 

Mr. Burling. You mean you never heard of the Vitale-Giannola 
feud ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; that was ahead of my 

Mr. Burling. You never heard the history of it ? 

Mr. Benneit. Oh, yes, I have heard — sure, Duke Croffin gave me a 
lot of that. He told me about it, in coming into the jail and shooting 
up the jail to get one of them out. 

Mr. Burling. That was a very famous feud back around 1920? 

Mr, Bennett, Yes. 

Mr. Burling. When you saw D'Aima, you knew his parents were 
mixed up in it? 

Mr. Bennett. His father was. 

Mr. Burling. His father got shot by somebody. You knew that 
was Vitale? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I didn't know. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Bennett, would you agree with what I think is 
your general reputation as being interested as knowing a great deal 
about crime conditions and that, generally, you were very much 
interested in that? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Burling. You did not know that D'Anna came out of a back- 
ground of a feud ? 

Mr. Bennett. I know he was an orphan out of that crowd, yes. 
I didn't know it before I met him, until I was told about it. He was 
a kid when I first met him. He didn't look anything like the fellow 
I saw today. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE dOMMERiCE 87 

Mr. Burling. Would it be some time before you talked to liim about 
an agency that Colombo introduced you to a year or so 

Mr. Bennett. Before Colombo introduced me ? 

Mr. Burling. You said the first time you met him was with Colom- 
bo? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Some time before you first talked about an agency ? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, yes. 

;Mr. Burling. You saw D'Anna in between those two times ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, several times. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know where ? 

Mr. Bennett. Just in my office. 

;^lr. BuitLiNG. What was the first time he came to your office? 

Mr. Bennett. That was, I think, with Walter Hancock. 

Mr. Burling. Between that time and the first time when Colombo 
introduced you, did you see him any other time ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Burling. You deny that you called Hancock on the phone and 
told him to find D'Anna 

Mr. Bennett. I certainly do. 

Mr. Burling. Please let me finish. 

Mr. Bennett. You have already asked me. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Bennett, let me finish my question. 

Mr. Bennett. Go ahead. 

jSIr. Burling. You deny that you called Hancock on the phone and 
told him to find D'Anna and bring him to you ? 

Mr. Bennett. Absolutely. 

Mr. Burling. I suppose you deny that you talked about any plan 
to knock off Joe Tocco? 

Mr. Bennett. I certainly did. 

Mr. Burling. You did talk about it? 

Mr. Bennett. No, sir ; I did not talk. They were friends and lived 
right down together. 

Mr. Burling. Joe Tocco did get knocked off later, did he not ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know who did it ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. I think the police had a good idea. 

Mr. Burling. Well, you knew everything the police knew, didn't 
you? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, the police had facts. All I had was hearsay. 

Mr. Burling. After Hancock brought D'Anna to see you, what did 
he say to you ? Tell us the conversation. 

Mr. Bennett. Well, you are taking me back too far to remember 
the conversation. 

Mr. Burling. Did you prepare any file memoranda ? 

Mr. Bennett. Those fellows came in to chew the rag. My office was 
a clearinghouse for all that kind of stufi'. 

Mr. Burling. Did you make any file on this conversation? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Burling. In fact, you didn't keep any files at all ? 

Mr. Bennett. None; not M'orking for Mr. Ford as long as I did. 
You didn't keep any notes or files. 

Mr. Burling. So when you left the Ford Motor Co., it was prac- 
tically impossible to tell what happened while you were there ? 



88 ORGANIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COlVIMERiCEi 

Mr, Bennett. I have a pretty good memory, as good as anybody. I 
used to have a remarkable memory. 

Mr. Burling. Did yon have some purpose for participating in the 
management of a giant corporation and keeping no files ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. I did most of my work for Mr. Ford. In fact, 
I worked directly for him. 

Mr. Burling. Yes; and you very nearly ran the Ford Motor Co., 
didn't you ? 

Mr. Bennett. When there was something wrong, I did. 

Mr. Burling. Well, would it be fair to say that in the later years 
that you were there you very nearly ran the company ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And yet you didn't keep SLiiy files ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. I never interfered with the departments. They 
functioned by themselves. 

Mr. Burling. Well, you made quite a lot of arrangements which 
were quite important without making any memoranda or files which 
later would explain how things happened ? 

Mr. Bennett. I can explain. 

Mr. Burling. I said without leaving any files that would explain it. 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I have no files. 

Mr. Burling. I didn't suppose that you took the files with you, Mr. 
Bennett, but I advise you that the Ford Motor Co. has said that there 
are no files that explain what Joe Adonis is doing with the haul-away 
contract at Edgewater. 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know Joe Adonis. I never heard of him until 
I read about him in the papers. 

Mr. Burling. I am ahead of myself. I am talking about the files. 
You didn't think it appropriate to keep a file that would explain 
how the haul -away contract was awarded. You just did it orally? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I didn't have anything to do with the New York 
haul-away. That was done by the branch manager down there. I 
didn't interfere with it. 

The Chairman. On the occasion of the visit by Hancock and 
D'Anna, did Hancock leave the room after the introduction of greet- 
ings were had? 

Mr, Bennett. The way I remember it, they stood outside and I 
came through the office. I had a private office. I came through the 
outer office and spoke to him and talked to Hancock a little while and 
D'Anna. I think all D'Anna was in there for was to see if he could 
get some business or something from us. 

The Chairman. Was everything that you said to D'Anna said in 
the presence and hearing of Hancock ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, I don't know. There would be several people. 
I was very grateful to talk to any of those fellows alone. There would 
be several people in my office to hear that or we would have a ticker 
going. 

The Chairman. You liave no recollection of Hancock leaving so 
that you and D'Anna would be talking alone? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Burling. You said, "Or a ticker going." You mean you were 
in the habit of having your conversation on a ticker ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 



ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE C^OMMERlCE; 89 

Mr. Burling. Was that a concealed microphone ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Was that for subsequent blackmail purposes ? 

Mr. Bennett. Me blackmail people ? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. It is kind of unusual to have a concealed 
microphone. 

Mr. Bennett. I certainly wanted people to know what was going 
on when I was in there. People could listen to any conversations that 
go out in the theater and listen to any conversations going on in my 
office. I did it for my own protection, and not for blackmail. 

Mr. Burling. I see. You don't keep files but you did have the con- 
cealed microphone? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Now, going back to this conversation, you didn't 
arrive at any deal with D'Anna at that time ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. I never made a deal with D'Anna. 

Mr. Burling. You never made a deal ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. I would refer him to the department head and 
if he got by, all right. 

Mr. Burling. What did you do with D'Anna that day? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, I don't know. I don't know whether we did 
anything that day. INIeeting a man twice, I w'ouldn't do anything 
for him, 

Mr. Burling. Did he meet you a third time ? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, several times. In fact, they came to my office 
often. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever do any business with D'Anna? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I never did any business. 

Mr. Burling. I suppose you don't know anything about how 
D'Anna got any of the agency in Wyandotte ? 

Mr. Bennett. I only know one way. He would have to go upstairs 
and talk to the people that give out the agency. I gave out no con- 
tracts. I put in a good word for him. If they objected to it, I never 
overruled them. 

You don't want me to answer questions. You won't let me answer 
your questions. 

The Chairman. You are being given a full opportunity and you 
can take your time and answer fully. 

Mr. Bennett. The only time I insisted on anything is when Mr. 
Ford insisted on it. Then I would make the department head do 
what I asked him to do. If you ran that department and I would 
send him to you and you called me back and gave me a reason for 
not taking him, I wouldn't interfere unless Mr. Ford told me to give 
that man that job. Then I would insist that you give it to him. 

Mr. Burling. You were supposedly Mr. Ford's chief of staff? 

]\Ir. Bennett. That is as near as you can put it, sometimes. 

Mr. Burling. Well, all right. Now, with respect to D'Anna, is it 
your testimony that you don't know what happened to D'Anna's 
request for an agency? 

Mr. Bennett. There is a fellow named Creed who is D'Anna's 
partner. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Par do ? 

Mr. Bennett. No; I never knew him. Who is D'Anna's partner 
now ? Is it Joe Creed ? 



90 ORGANIIZEID CRIME IN^ INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. BuRLixG. I can't tell you. I don't know. 

Mr. Bennett. There is a man in the office, and I think you will 
find if you go back in the records of the Ford ]Motor Co. that we 
were going to cancel that demand there and give this guy Creech 
the job. He didn't have the money and I think D'Anna backed him 
up. So we gave him the go-ahead on it. 

Mr. Burling. To refresh your recollection, Mr. Pardo had an 
agency. You d"d cancel him out and then you put Pardo and D'Anna 
together as partners and Creed was general manager. 

Mr. Bennett. No; I wouldn't do that. I didn't know anything 
about that. I thought I was giving Creech the dealership. 

Mr. Burling. You never intended to give D'Anna the Ford agency ? 

Mr. Bennett. Not alone. 

Mr. Burling. You intended to give 

Mr. Bennett. With Creech, with the man that needed the money. 

Mr. Burling. But it was the Pardo Motor Sales Agency for the 
next 8 years. Doesn't that refresh your recollection ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I wasn't that close to the thing. I was tied up 
everyday in my life with Mr. Ford and I passed those things off to 
lieutenants and the heads of the departments. 

Mr. Burling. I see. Now, what investigation was it customary 
to make for the character and background of a person seeking Ford 
agencies in those days ? 

Mr. Benneti\ Well, the ability to sell, or if they w^ere in a position 
that they could outsell a fellow that was in there. 

Mr. Burling. Suppose I tell you that a 31-year-old ex-bDotlegger 
with a criminal record for bribing witnesses to a murder, and no 
capital, who had never been associated with the automobile business 
in any way, came in and asked for an agency. Would he ordinarily 
get it? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Burling. Well, that is what Mr. D'Anna did. Can you ex- 
plain that? 

Mr, Bennett. Are you describing him when you say that? 

Mr. Burling. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Bennett. I didn't know anything about it. The first time 
I ever heard about it is just now. 

Mr. Burling. Although you were a very knowledgable man in 
Detroit before you left ? 

Mr. Bennett. No; I wasn't. I knew^ what I was doing in the 
plant, but I didn't know too much about what was going on. I left 
that to the police and the officials. 

Mr. Burling. It was your custom to call up the police, the chief 
of police in River Rouge and give him an order, wasn't it? 

Mr. Bennett. What do you mean, give him on order? When we 
had bootlegging down on our D. T. & I., when they threw a case of 
liquor on the trains, we called on them often. 

Mr. Burling. I am not talking about calling on them. 

Mr. Bennett. I never gave them an order in my life. 

Mr. Burling. When you spoke to every chief of police within 100 
miles, you gave them an order, isn't that right? 

Mr. Bennei't. No. 

Mr. Burling, Did you not order Chief Hancock to bring in D'Anna ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I didn't. If you put them both down here, I will 
make them admit it. 



ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE CIOMMERCE 91 

Mr. Burling. And if he says you did, he lies ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. We didn't need to send for those fellows. 

Mr. Burling. You have no knowledge, I take it, of what investiga- 
tion, if any, was made of the character and reputation of Mr. D'Anna 
when he went into the agency ? 

Mr. Bennett. Just that he was popular down there. 

Mr. Burling. How did you ascertain that ? 

Mr. Bennett. By picking up the newspapers. 

Mr. Burling. He was, in 1031, in the newspapers in connection with 
matters other than murders? 

Mr. Bennett. No, but Wyandotte certainly was. 

Mr. Burling. I am trying to find out from you, Mr. Bennett, how 
you knew that D'Anna was popular in Wyandotte. 

Mr. Benni:tt. Well, the only way I could answer that is that it was 
common knowledge. 

Mr. Burling. It was common knowledge? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. But it wasn't common knowledge that he was a big 
bootlegger ? 

Mr. Bennett. I didn't know that. 

Mr. Burling. I see. It wasn't common knowledge that he had been 
in jail? 

Mr. Bennett. I didn't know he had been in jail. He was never 
quoted too high to me as being in that category. 

Mr. Halley. The testimony of the chief of police is that you asked 
him to bring in D'Anna, is that not so? 

Mr. Bennett. That is not so. 

Mr. Halley. Well, how" did D'Anna get into your office? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, he came in with him. The chief of police was 
in there very often. 

Mr. Halley. Was he a good friend of yours? 

Mr. Bennett. No, the boys around the office there. He generally 
came in to get a little something done on his car. 

Mr. Halley. How did D'Anna happen to come in? 

Mr. Bennett. He brought him in. 

Mr. Halley. Wholly unexpectedly? 

Mr. Bennett, Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Then D'Anna nor the chief ever told you that D'Anna 
was coming in ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. Now, we have three different stories. Story No. 1 
is that INIr, D'Anna says that he got in touch with you and asked for 
an appointment. That is wrong? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, he called me often. He wanted to talk to me. 

Mr. Halley. Now, did he call you to say that he wanted to see you 
about a Ford agency ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, just that he wanted to talk to me. 

Mr. Halley. D'Anna did call you often? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, he called often. 

Mr. Halley. Before he got the Ford agency ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; about wanting to see me. 

Mr. Halley. And he directly came in to see you ? 

Mr. Bennett. He wanted to see me. 

Mr. Halley. He wanted to see you ? 



92 ORGANIZEtD CRIME IK INTERSTATE dOMMERC'Ei 

Mr. Bennett. A lot of them came in but I go out the back way. 

Mr. Halley. You were cluckinrr D'Anna ? 

Mr. Bennett. I clucked any of them if I were busy with Mr. Ford. 
People came in from the outside office. I had an outside office and 
inside is a door with a lock on it. You could not go in but you could 
go out. I had a back door that I could get out. 

Mr. Halley. The point is this, Mr. Bennett : There came a time at 
which you did see Mr. D'Anna? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, yes ; I saw him often. 

Mr. Halley. You saw him often ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. There came a time when he came to your office? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did he do that often ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, he often came to the office. 

Mr. Halley. You saw him often ? 

Mr. Bennett. Wait, now 

Mr. Halley. You saw him often before he got his agency ? 

Mr. Bennett. Wait, now, not before he got his agency. 

Mr. Halley. I am talking about before he got the agency. 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. How often did you see him before he got the agency ? 

Mr. Bennett. The only time I saw him was when I sent him to 
somebody. He came out to tlie house once to talk to me. 

Mr. Halley. About what ? 

Mr. Bennett. About getting into some kind of work with the 
company, some legitimate woi'k- He always gave me the idea he 
wanted to get away from this other 

Mr. BuELiNG. What other ? 

Mr. Halley. How did that young man have entree to anybody as 
busy and imj)ortant as you ? What was the basis of your relationship ? 

Mr. Bennett. I was never too busy to talk to anybody. 

Mr. Halley. You talked to anybody ? 

Mr. Bennett. I talked to governors and racketeers and judges and 
everybody in my office all at one time. 

Mr. Halley. They were all welcome at your home too ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes; I entertained them at my home. I spent all 
my oAvn money, and not the Ford Motor Co. money on entertainment. 

Mr. Halley. Any racketeer that wanted to could come to your home 
and was welcome? 

Mr. Bennett. Not if I didn't know they were coming. Sometimes 
if they wanted to talk to me, and if they came out there, I would treat 
them all right. 

Mr. Halley. When D'Anna came to your home, did he have an 
appointment to come to your home ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. He just walked in? 

Mr. Bennett. He drove up. 

Mr. Halley. He drove up and walked in ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. That was before the chief brought him to your office ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. After the chief brought him ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 






ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE, 93 

Mr. Halley. How about the time the chief brought him to your 
office; had you seen D'Anna previous to that? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know. I believe I saw him but I don't — I 
didn't know him well enough. 

Mr. Halley. You had never talked to him previous to that? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I didn't know him well enough. 

Mr. Halley. On that occasion, when the chief brought him to your 
office, did you expect D'Anna, or was that a wholly unexpected visit? 

jMr. Bennett. It was a wholly unexpected visit. 

Mr. Halley\ D'Anna had not telephoned for an appointment? 

Mr. Bennett. He did not impress me at all. I didn't know who 
he was. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't know who he was ? 

Mr. Bennett. I didn't pay much attention. 

Mr. Halley. D'Anna had not telephoned for an appointment? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. You had not telephoned the chief and asked him to 
bring D Anna in ? 

Mr. Bennett. I never telephoned the chief or asked him to bring 
anyone in. 

Mr. Halley. If D'Anna said that he telephoned for an appoint- 
ment or you sent for him, then he is lying, or mistaken ? 

Mr. Bennett. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. If the chief said that you telephoned the chief and 
asked him to bring D'Anna in, then the chief is lying or mistaken ? 

Mr. Bennett. He is lying, and that is not hard for him to do. 

Mr. Halley. It is not hard for the chief to lie ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. Has he lied to you on other occasions? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, several, in fact. He was a nuisance to me. In 
fact, I loaned him $40, figuring that I would never see him again, and 
I never did see him. 

Mr. Halley. Then you bought him off pretty cheaply ? 

Mr. Bennett. It was worth it. 

Mr. Halley. Did you give him any moneys other thin that on other 
occasions? 

Mr. Bennett. I just loaned him $40 anil he never lame back. 

Mr. Hi^LLEY. With you, the chief has a bad reputat on for veracity, 
then? 

Mr. Bentnett. Yes. 

Mr. Hi^.LLEY. Did he lie to you on any other occasion and such as 
you recall now? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know. I can tell you now thnt I can say that 
he was full of bull. That is the only way that I car. hand it to you. 

Mr. Halley. Can you give me any other instance ni which he was 
full of bull? 

Mr. Bennett. I said I didn't believe anything he said. 

Mr. Halley. Even on factual matters when he says. 'Bennett called 
me up and asked me to bring D'Anna in," you do not bflieve it? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. Can you think of any other specific instance where he 
told you an untruth? 

68953—51 — pt. 9 7 



94 ORGANIZE© CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Bennett. Just tliat he talked too much. I wanted to get away 
and get back to work. I didn't listen to half of it. 

Mr. Halley. You made a fairly serious charge against a man who 
is a police officer. Do you want to have it stand on the record that you 
think he is a liar ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Would you be willing to state the basis of your belief? 

Mr. Bennett. Sure. 

Mr. Halley. Will you please state the basis for your charge? 

Mr. Bennett. Just because I heard him talk before. 

Mr. Halley. What have you heard him say that turned out to 
be untrue? 

Mr. Bennett. Thousands of things. 

Mr. Halley. Could you give us, or could you think of one instance? 

Mr. Bennett. Nothing; just chatter. 

Mr. Halley. You said some time ago that you had a pretty good 
memory. Can you think of one thing that he said that was not true? 

Mr. Bennett. Not 20 years back. 

Mr. Halley. There is not one thing that you can definitely say that 
you remember that one time lie told a lie? 

Mr. Bennett. Just that the fellow got under my skin. 

Mr. Halley. You just do not like him? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I didn't like him or dislike him. I just didn't 
have time for him. I kneAv he was in there chiseling. 

Mr. Halley. Is D'Anna a liar, too? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know. I don't think he thinks he is. 

Mr. Halley. Do you think he is ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know what he said. Tell me what he said. 

Mr. Halley. If he said he telephoned you and asked for an ap- 
pointment, is that a lie? 

Mr. Bennett. I am sure he might have — now, I can't say that is a 
lie. He might have clone that ; he often did. 

Mr. Halley. We are talking about the first time that the chief 
brought him in. 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. He said that that was pursuant to an arrangement 
that he made with you. If he said that, that is wrong and you have 
already said it was wrong. 

Mr. Bennett. He helped him to come about an agency ? Yes, that's 
wrong. He didn't bring him to get him an agency. 

Mr. Halley. Did the chief tell you before that that he was going to 
bring D'Anna in ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. Now, don't you look people up before you give them 
an agency? Isn't your company the kind of company that makes a 
special investigation ? 

Mr. Bennett. They should; yes. That is up to the man he is 
referred to. 

Mr. Halley. An automobile agency is an important thing, is it 
not ? 

Mr. Bennett. If they sell cars, it is important. 

Mr. Halley. It is a valuable property, is it not? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Don't you draw a credit report on a man? 



¥ ORGAN'IZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERiCE, 95- 

Mr. Bennett. Sometimes we have given people that we absolutely 
had to go out and sell cars for them, agencies. 

Mr. Halley. There is always a special reason 

Mr. Bennett. It wasn't my idea. Yes ; there is a special reason. 

Mr. Halley. Did you recommend D'Anna for this agency ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. Can you think of any reason why he should have gotten 
it then ? 

Mr. Bennett. The only reason I can think of is that the man, either 
Creech or somebody in the plant, was talking about the agency and he 
nuist have backed him up and got in touch with him. 

Mr. Halley. A man came in here and testified that D'Anna came 
to him and said, "You have a gai-age and I can get the Ford agency. 
Let's be partners." Are you familiar with that'^ 

Mr. Bennett. We have done things like that, but I am not familiar 
with it. 

Mr. Halley. You never told D'Anna that he had the agency and 
that he should get a partner ? 

Mr, Bennett. Not D'Anna — Creech, I think the man's name is, who 
wanted to take D'Anna in with him. He came to my office. 

Mr. Halley. Who was that ? 

Mr. Bennett. Creech. I think his name was Joe Creech. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't Pardo have that situation ? 

Mr. Bennett. I didn't know Pardo. I don't know anything about 
it. 

Mr. Halley. You never heard of Pardo? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know anything about it. I have heard of 
him since I have been back here, you know. You hear everything 
back in that room. 

Mr. Halley. If Pardo said that D'Anna came to him and said, "I 
can get the Ford agency," then that is either a mistake or a lie? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. We are trying to find out here very simply what 
D'Anna had on the ball or on the Ford Co. or on you to get a Ford 
agency. 

Mr. Bennett. He didn't have anything on me or anything on the 
Ford Motor Co. 

Mr. Halley. Let's look back at tlie record. If you had to do it over 
again, can you think of a single justification for giving D'Anna that 
agency, knowing the facts as you know them today ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know; just the facts that he gave me. 

Mr. Halley. If those are the facts, you would not give him the 
agency ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. What facts did you know at that time that made the 
case look any better? 

Mr. Bennett. Just that he was a fellow that wanted to get out of 
the way of the gangs down there and try to get away 

Mr. Halley. He wanted to get out of the way of the gangs down 
there ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Then you must have known that he was in the way 
of the gangs down there. 



96 ORGANIIZEID CRIME IK INTERSTATE COMMERlCE: 

Mr. Bennett, No, I just know that they were down there. 

Mr, Halley, You have just said that he wanted to get out of the 
way of the gangs down there, 

Mr. Bennett, Just a minute, now. I know that they were down 
there, 

Mr. Halley. Would you read the answer, where the witness said 
that he wanted to get out of the way of the gang down there ? 

(Answer read.) 

The Chairman. What did you mean by that? 

Mr. Bennett. Just exactly what he said there. He didn't want 
anything to do with that crowd. 

Mr. Halley. What crowd 'i 

Mr. Bennett, The downriver crowd. Those were pretty tough 
times, those days, if you were around here. 

Mr. Halley. Did he have anything to do with the downriver crowd ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know a thing about it. Being an offspring of 
the people that he was, he might have been called on to. 

Mr. Halley. Then you had a pretty strong suspicion that he had 
something to do with the downriver crowd ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I knew he was 

Mr, Halley, You said that you knew about his activities from the 
chief of police ; is that not right ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I didn't say anything about it. I heard about 
him being a popular fellow. 

Mr. Halley. Who was he popular with — the gang? 

Mr. Bennett. No, the town. 

Mr, HAlley. Doing what ? 

Mr. Bennett. He was very well liked. He was in everything. He 
was always on some kind of a committee or something, 

Mr, Halley. He testified that he had no business at all ; that he was 
just getting along, and tried to imply that his brother-in-law was 
supporting him. 

Mr. Bennett. I don't l^now anything about that. I wasn't close 
enough to him to know anything like that. 

Mr. Halley. What favorable factor did you know that caused you 
to even send him up to the head of the agency or depaitment for an 
interview about an agency ? 

Mr. Bennett. I might say this : I might have put him on the man 
he ought to talk to, 

Mr. Halley, You were just trying to get rid of him ? 

Mr, Bennett. I just passed the buck, and did that every clay in 
my life. 

Mr. Halley, Then it was just somebody else's mistake that he got 
this agency ? 

Mr. Bennett. It would have to be, 

Mr. Halley. It was a mistake, was it not, if the facts are as you 
heard them? 

Mr, Bennett, I don't know how good an agency he has. If he still 
has got the agency, then I don't think it is much of a mistake. If he 
hasn't killed anybody, I think it was a good move. 

Mr. Halley. Is it to the credit of the Ford Motor Co. that it hands 
over its agencies to people who have a criminal record with no legiti- 
mate business, with no assets, and no experience in the automobile 
business ? 



OROANHZE'D CRIME IX IXTEKSTATE ClOMMERiCE, 97 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; if they could cut down on the gangs that way, 
I would give them all an agency. 

Mr. Hallet. Then you would recommend that in order to improve 
criminal conditions, Ford give automobile agencies 

Mr. Bennett. Give them all work or something to do. 

Mr. Hallet. Give them something to do and give them Ford 



ao-encies 



'Mr. Bennett. ISTot finything to do, but something to do. 

Mr. Hallet. Is that the principle on which you recommended this 
man for an agency ? 

Mr. Bennett. I didn't recommend him for an agency. 

]Mr. Hallet. Would you favor him over a man that had no record 
and that had experience in the automobile business ? 

Mr. Bennett. The man to get the agency was right in the plant. 
If you go back in the record, I believe he did get it, or perhaps they 
crowded him out. I don't know anything about it. 

Mr. Hallet. They didn't crowd him out. They came to see you 
and something happened after they saw you. What we are trying 
to find out is how the right man was crowded out by these people. 

Mr. Bennett. I never knew the right man was crowded out. 

Mr. Hallet. You said the right man 

Mr. Bennett. I wouldn't even 

Mr. Hallet. If he was crowded out, you know nothing about it ? 

Mr. Bennett. That's right. 

Mr. Hallet. It is quite apparent he was crowded out. If a young 
man of 31 with no experience who had been wholly unoccupied for 
2 years previously, and who prior to that had been selling sugar — 
that wouldn't be the right man ; would it ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Hallet. He wouldn't. 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Hallet. Well, let's turn for a moment to one other case. You 
say you know nothing about Joe Adonis Automotive Conveyance ? 

Mr. Bennett. I never heard of that name in my life. 

Mr. Hallet. In New Jersey ? 

Mr. Bennett, No, I wouldn't interfere with that anyway. 

Mr. Hallet. Mr. Burling wants to ask you a few more questions 
about this case. 

Mr. Burling. Before we go to Edgewater, is it not a fact, Mr. Ben- 
nett, that about 2 weeks after this time that the chief brought D'Anna 
to your office, you met the chief and asked him how D'Anna worked 
out, and you said to the chief that you would arrange to give him a 
half interest in the agency, and would bring back Pardo, only the 
agency would have to be in Pardo's name, because D'Anna would stink 
up the agency ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; not me. 

Mr. BiJRLiNG. You didn't say that ? 

Mr. Bennett. Absolutely not. 

ISIr. Burling. If the chief — he hasn't testified to that yet 

Mr. Bennett. And he won't. 

Mr. Burling. And I hear that he has left. 

If the chief testifies to that, he is lying again ; is that right ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 



98 ORGANIIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE OOMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Now, let us get back to Edgewater. Did you ever hear 
of the Automotive Conveyance Co. ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, not the name. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know that you had a company hauling cars 
away at Edgewater, N. J. ? 

Mr. Bennett. I suppose they have. 

Mr. Halley. You have no knowledge of that situation at all ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; not of any situation there. We have never had 
any trouble there. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have anything to do with letting out the 
contract? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. For the automotive liauling at Edgewater? 

Mr. Bennett. No, not a thing. In the iNew York branch, there was 
a very competent man there. Nobody interfered with him. 

Mr. Halley. Various people say that you did arrange that through 
Detroit. Then they are not telling the truth ? 

Mr. Bennett. They are not telling the truth. 

Mr. Halley. Did not a situation arise where it was called to the 
attention of the Ford Motor Co. that Joe Adonis was an officer ? 

Mr. Bennett. I never heard of Joe Adonis. 

Mr. Halley. You never heard of that? 

Mr. Bennett. I never heard of him until the other 

Mr. Halley. Was that not handled through your office ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, sir; absolutely not. 

Mr. Halley. Wasn't your office advised that Joe Adonis was a 
notorious gangster with a criminal record ? 

Mr. Bennett. No,. 

Mr. Halley. And didn't the Ford Motor Co. make efforts to see if 
they could replace the Automotive Conveyance Co. with another non- 
gangster-controlled company? 

Mr. Bennett. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Halley. And didn't they find that nobody else would bid for 
that contract against Joe Adonis? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; not that I know of. 

Mr. Halley. Do not the records of the Ford Motor Co. show that 
you gave that contract to Joe Adonis ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, sir. If they do, somebody has faked them. If 
they do, it has been done since I left there. No one dared do that when 
I was there. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any conference with anyone con- 
cerning the contract for hauling cars a\vay from the New Jersey 
plants of the Ford Motor Co. ? 

Mr. Bennett. There was no concern on the cars from the Jersey 
plants at all. 

Mr. Halley. Is it a coincidence that musclemen and racketeers 
have hauling contracts with the Ford Motor Co.. in New Jersey, and 
that they obtained one here ? 

Mr. Benneti\ Is that the only company they have hauling con- 
tracts for? 

Mr. Halley. Did you have personal knowledge of any other com- 
pany's activities ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, but I didn't think any of them were any different 
than us. 



ORGAlSriZElD CRIME IN INTERSTATE ClOMMERlCE; 99 

Mr. H ALLEY. If you know of any, I would be very happy to know 
about it. 

Mr. Bennett. I thought they all had the same — I thought the 
same convoys took all our cars. 

Mr. Halley. Well, do they? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know. It was none of my business. I 
wasn't concerned about it. 

Mr. Halley. Wasn't there a motive in hiring strong-arm men to 
haul these cars? 

Mr. Bennett. Not unless they were having trouble there. Then 
they might have. 

Mr. Halley. Well, do you know whether they were having trouble 
or not ? 

Mr. Bennett. No; I never knew of them having any trouble. We 
had a very competent man there. I think he is still there now. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever sought to have protection for your 
automobile-hauling operation ? 

Mr, Bennett. If we did, we would follow them ourselves, 

Mr. Halley. Who would do it? How was it done? 

Mr. Benneti'. We would follow along in a car in back of them. 

Mr. Hali.ey. Who did it? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, anybody I'd assign to it. 

Mr. Halley. Who would you assign ? 

Mr. Bennett. Not hoodlums, our own men. I had athletes, good 
men. The newspapers might call them hoodlmns. I call them ex- 
boxers, ex-football players, and like that, but men that could take care 
of themselves, ■ 

Mr. Halley. Did any of them have criminal records? 

Mr. Bennett. No; none of them. 

Mr. Halley. You never hired a man, knowingly, with a criminal 
record ? 

Mr. BENNET'r. No. 

Mr. Halley. That is all right now. 

Mr. Burling. Coming to the E. & L. Haulaway, when did you learn 
first that D'Anna had a half interest in it? 

Mr. Bennett. I didn't know anything about the E. & L, The first 
time I heard about it is right back there. How long has that been 
going on ; do you know that ? 

Mr, Burling, On where? 

Mr. Bennett. How long has the haul-away been going on? 

Mr. Burling. Is it necessary for me to tell you, Mr, Bennett? 

Mr. Bennett, Yes; it is, 

Mr. Burling, Excuse me. 

Mr, Bennett, you must wait until I finish my questions. Is it 
necessary for anyone to tell you when the haul-away contract was 
entered into which liauled all Ford motor cars away from the Detroit 
area plants? 

Mr, Bennett, Yes. It is very necessary for you to tell me. 

Mr. Burling. You don't know ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. If you would stop and think a minute, 7 : 30 
in the morning Mr. Ford picked me up, I was with him until noon. 
I had just a little while then. I was with him after noon until 5 
o'clock nearly every day. 



100 ORGANiIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. In other words, you have been kind of overbuilt as 
the real manager of Ford. You were really Henry Ford's valet. 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; his valet. 

]Mr. Burling. His valet ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. You know better than that. 

Mr. Burling. That is the way you describe yourself. 

Mr. Bennett. You know better than that. 

Mr, Burling. And you don't know such an important fact as when 
the contract to haul Ford cars away from the Ford plants in the 
Detroit area was entered into ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I don't. 

Mr. Burling. And you testify here under oath that you did not 
know until you came into the jury room today that D'Anna had a half 
interest in it ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, I knew he hauled for the bomber plants, but 
I didn't give him that. 

Mr. Burling. You did know that ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; the bombers. That's all. 

Mr. Burling. But you didn't know anything else ? 

]Mr. Bennett. No; that's the only haul-away I remember him 
having. 

Mr. Burling. I see. You also testified, when Mr. Halley was ques- 
tioning you, that you had never heard of Joe Adonis until you were 
in the witness room. 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I never heard of him. 

Mr. Burling. You never heard the name ? 

]\Ir. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Burling. Do you read the newspapers ? 

Mr. Bennett. I read them since I started out here ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. You took up reading the newspapers when you were 
subpenaed ; is that your testimony ? 

Mr. Bennett. We read the California papers. I am not much 
interested in these papers. 

Mr. Bltrling. Isn't Joe Adonis all over the California papers, too ? 

Mr. Bennett. I didn't notice. 

Mr. Burling. Your testimony is you really want to stand on oatli 
that you never heard the name "Joe Adonis" ? 

Mr. Bennett. Sure ; I'm on oath here. 

Mr. Bltrling. Will you please stop interrupting me. 

Mr. Bennett. Why don't you take my word ? 

Mr. BuELiNG. Because it is incredible. 

Mr. Bennett. That is your opinion. 

Mr. Burling. At anj^ rate, you made no file which reflects how the 
haul-away contract in the Detroit area was entered into? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Burling. Is that right ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Burling. You left your successors without any information as 
to what went on? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know how my successors — -who they were and 
what tliey were. 

Mr. Burling. You have heard of INIr. Bugas, for example? 

Mr. Benneit. Yes; I have heard of him. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 101 

Mr. Burling. Now, is there any way he can go to a file that you 
know of and look up the way in which the E. & L. Transport contract 
was negotiated? 

Mr. Bp:nnett. No ; but he had them 3 j-ears there loose where he 
could find out anything he wanted. 

Mr. Burling. Is there any file? I am talking about a filing system. 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I never ke]:)t a file. There is probably a file up 
there if you go in the right department. 

Mr. Burling. All right. Tell me where we can look. 

Mr. Bennett. Well: all right; whoever lets the haul-aways out. 
That would be Harry Mack or the branch, or it might be the superin- 
tendent of the plant. 

Mr. Burling. That would reflect on how it was negotiated, what in- 
vestigation was made, and so on? 

Mr. Bennett. They should have a file ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. And would there be anything in the file that would 
show how D'Anna got the agency ? 

Mr. Bennett. There shoidd'be; yes. That showed when, the 
date 

Mr. Burling. And the investigation of character reports and so on? 

Mr. Bennett. That should show that, too. There should be a con- 
tract let. 

Mr. Burling. All right. Now, addressing yourself to the year 1937, 
did you recruit a squad of persons who were assigned to the fire house 
that were to be used in case any violence should break out ? 

Mr. Bennett. You will have to come again on that. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever put any plant protection or service de- 
partment men on your payroll as auxiliary firemen, but who were really 
to act as plant police ? 

Mr. Bennett. We had a fire department, but they acted as that. We 
didn't add to it. 

jNIr. Burling. You never had any special squad in the fire depart- 
ment ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Burling. Did you have any special squad to deal with violence ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. Only our own men. 

Mr. Burling. I understand they are your own men. I understand 
you hired them. My question is, Did you ever recruit a special squad ? 

Mr. Bennett. No; Ave didn't have a goon squad, if that's what you 
mean. 

Mr. Bltjling. You did not have. Now, did you have any group of 
30 or more men who were carried on the rolls as auxiliary firemen 
that were put out of the plant in a very short time ? 

]VIr. Bennett. No. 

]\Ir, Burling. You never had a demand from special firemen for a 
higher rate of pay which caused you to say, "Get them out of here" ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Pete Licavoli ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. The first time I ever saw him was right there. 

Mr. Burling. You seemed to have learned or seen or heard quite a 
number of things in that witness room. 

Mr. Bennetp. You ought to go in and listen. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, on March 22, 1937, somebody forced your 
car into a ditch at Greenfield Koad near Michigan Avenue in Dear- 
born ; is that right ? 



102 ORGANIIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And you got 

Mr. Bennett. No ; forced me over a curb. 

Mr. Burling. And you got out of the car with a gun drawn ; is that 
right ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; I got out with a .45 in my hand. 

Mr. Burling. Was anyone with you ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Burling. Who was in the other car ? 

Mr. Bennett. There were three fellows in there. 

Mr. Burling. Who were they? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know who they were. I thought I recognized 
them. 

Mr. Burling. Wlio did you think you recognized ? 

Mr. Bennett. I thouglit I recognized some downtown hoodlums. 
I don't know who they were. I know them by face. I described them 
to the police. The police thought they knew them. I got the chief 
of police over and told him who I thought they were. 

Mr. Burling. The chief of Dearborn police ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

The Chairman. Who did you tell him you thought they were? 

Mr. Bennett. I thought they were the downtown hoodlums. I 
know a lot of those faces. I couldn't tell you names. In fact, they 
change them so fast, you can't keep up with them. 

The Chairman. Did they show you pictures? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, no; I described them. 

Mr. Burling. Did the police tell you who they thought the men 
were? 

Mr. Bennett. Harold Brooks thought he could bring them in. 

Mr. Burling. But he didn't tell you who he thought they were? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Burling. Weren't you curious enough to ask him? 

Mr. Bennett. No. I wasn't curious' at all. I was just glad to get 
out. I don't think they wanted to hurt me. I think they wanted to 
stop me and question me. 

Mr. Burling. Stop you and question you about what? 

MV. Bennett. About anything; I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. Do you have any idea of the topic that they wanted 
to question you on ? 

Mr. Bennett. Just that I was going to the police with informa- 
tion, and that's the only reason I know of they wanted to stop me. 

The Chairman. You, of course, suspected it was deliberate? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, sure. 

The Chairman. You thought thev were going to get you, and that 
is why you had the gun in your hand ? 

Mr. Bennett. They pulled up along side of me twice, and I thought 
I was going to get it. I was shot down in my life once, and you get a 
little jittery after that. 

Mr. Burling. But you don't think it was Pete Licavoli that stopped 
you ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; not if this is Pete Licavoli. 

Mr. Burling. What is your understanding of the meaning of the 
w^ord "Mafia"? 



ORGANIZED CRIAIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 103 

Mr. Bennett. I think that's — at one time, we had the Black Hand 
squads here that used to take a lot— I think it was very much over- 
rated. 

Mr. Burling. The Black Hand squad? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, no; the Mafia. 

Mr. Burling. Just tell us what the Mafia was, according to your 
best understanding. 

M'r. Bennett. Well, it was an organization that started in Sicily 
and filtered into this country and then filtered out down in New 
Orleans. 

]\Ir. Burling. Tell us your understanding of what kind of an or- 
ganization it was. 

Mr. Btcnnett. Do you want the history of the Mafia? 

Mr. Burling. I would like to know everything you know about the 
Mafia. 

Mr. Bennett. Well, all I know about it, for a while there, children 
were being picked up — for instance, if you were a fruit merchant that 
went in business, and you had a child, somebody would pick him up, 
because you didn't kick in for protection or something like that. Then 
there was the Mafia, of course, which is a national affair from Europe, 
but these fellows put the black hand squad on. 

Mr. Bi'RLiNG. Can't you tell us what the Mafia is ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, the Mafia originally was an organization, a 
secret organization in Sicily that went out on revenge, knocked off 
people they didn't^like. 

Mr. I3uRLiNG. Knocked off people they didn't like? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. What is your understanding of the nature of the 
IMafia in this country? 

Mr. Bennett. I have none, outside of what I have read about New 
Orleans. I thought it was cleaned up here. I don't think there is 
anything like it now. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever ask the Mafia to intercede in a dispute 
between you and Pete Licavoli ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I never had a dispute with Pete Licavoli. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever have any dealings with the Mafia ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know any members of the Mafia ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I don't know. I might know a lot of them, but I 
don't know. They wouldn't admit it. 

The Chairman. I think that is all, Mr. Bennett. That will conclude 
your testimony. Thank you. 

Mr. Bennett. Can I go back to California ? 

The Chairman. I think so. If your plans are not completed to 
leave today, we might be in touch with your further, but there is no 
expectation of it. 

Mr. Bennett. I would like to get back. I have a youngster there 
about 12 years old back on the desert 

Th? Ci^AiRM/N. We will be in touch with you at the conclusion of 
the icstiincny. 

Mr. Bennett. I am at the Fort Shelby. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Nono Minaudo. 



104 ORGANIIZED CRIME IN IXTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Yes. 

TESTIMONY OF NONO MINAUDO, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Your full name? 

Mr, MiNAUDO. Nono Minaudo. 

The Chairman. And you live where? 

Mr. Minaudo. 17418 Monica. 

The Chairman. And how long have you lived there ? 

Mr. Minaudo. Six years. 

The Chairman. Where did you live before that ? 

Mr. IVIiNAUDO. On Cherry] awn. 

Tlie Chairman. Would you talk slowly and loudly and distinctly, 
please. We will get along fine. 

Mr. Minaudo. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Will you proceed, counsel ? 

Mr. Burling. Where were you born, Mr. Minaudo? 

Mr. Minaudo. Italy. 

Mr. Burling. What part of Italy ? 

Mr. Minaudo. Sicily. 

Mr. Burling. When were you born ? 

Mr. Minaudo. 1900, June 15. 

Mr. Burling. Where and when and under what circumstances did 
you enter the United States? 

Mr. Minaudo. I came in from New Orleans. 

Mr. Burling. From where? 

Mr. Minaudo. New Orleans. 

Mr. Burling. All right. When and under what circumstances? 

Mr. Minaudo. I come in 1924. 

Mr. Burling. All right, go on. 

Mr. Minaudo. February 1, 1924. 

Mr. Burling. Under what circumstances ? 

Mr. Minaudo. I just came in on the boat, that's all. 

Mr. Burling. AYliat kind of a passport did you have ? 

Mr. Minaudo. I had no passport. 

Mr. Burling. How did you manage to get into the country ? 

Mr. Minaudo. I come in here with a merchandise boat. 

Mr. Burling. You mean you were a sailor? 

Mr. Minaudo. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. And you jumped ship in New Orleans? 

Mr. Minaudo. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. And you are here illegally today? 

Mr. Minaudo. Well, no. I am not illegal today. 

Mr. Burling. Well, vou never went out and came in legally, did 
you? 

Mr. Minaudo. No ; but I legitimatized myself. 

Mr. Burling. That doesn't make your entry legal. 

Mr. Minaudo. I think it does. 

Mr. Burling. Now, I wish to advise you that the commission of a 
murder outside of the territorial limits of the United States, except 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 105 

on a United States vessel, is neither a Federal crime nor a State crime. 
How man}^ mnrders have you committed outside of the United States? 

ISIr. iMiNAUDO. None. 

Mr. BuRLixG. Have you ever been convicted of murder ? 

Mr. MiNAuDo. None. 

Mr. Burling. Are you sure ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Positive. 

Mr. Burling. Were you not convicted of murder in absentia, in the 
kingdom of It^ily ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Never. 

Mr. Burling. Have 3'ou ever been convicted in absentia of any 
other crimes in Italy ? 

JNIr. MiNAUDO. No, sir. 

Mr. Chairman, The file of the Immigration and Naturalization 
Service here in Detroit indicates that the State Department had 
reported to it that this man was sentenced in absentia to life imprison- 
ment on December 28, 11>2.^. in Ital}' for murder; that he was sen- 
tenced in absentia May 5. 1927. for a term of 18 months in Italy for 
organized crime association and larceny, and once more on May 18, 
1932, for 30 years for charges of attempted grand larceny, attempted 
murder, and copartnersliip in assault and theft. Do you deny those 
charges ^ 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Absolutely not. I left the old country in 1922. From 
191S until 1922 I was in the Italian Army. If I committeed any 
nnirder in the old country, I think that the Italian Government don't 
want to keep me in the Army. I am sure of that. 

Mr. Bt'RLiNG. What is your coi'rect name, by the way ? What name 
are you baptized under ? 

]\Ir. MiNAUDO. Well. I got both names — Nono Minaudo. 

Mr. Burling. That is your baptismal name? 

Mr. ^IiNAUDO. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Did you use any aliases? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Here. 3' 011 mean ? 

Mr. Burling. Ever? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Yes ; over here I did. 

]Mr. Burling. Well, give them to us. Was it Polari ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. That is right. 

]\Ir. Burling. Tony Polari ? 

Mr. jNIinaudo. I used to sell olive oil over here. 

]Mr. Burling. How about Joe Mangiopani ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. You also called yourself Guiseppe Mangiopani ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. No, just Joe ; that is what I give it. 

Mr. Burling. Now, 3^ou say j^ou jumped ship in 

Mr. ^IiNAUDO. New Orleans. 

Mr. Burling. Wh}' did you state in the sworn statement to the 
Inmiigration Service, when 3^ou were first arrested as an illegal entrant, 
that you had entered the port of New York on the S. S. Conte Rosso 
on September 27, 1923 ? Did you so swear? 

INIr. MiNAUDO. Well. I don't remember if I was on it at that time 
when I told that. 

Mr. Burling. At anv rate j'ou told them that? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I did. 

Mr. Burling. And that was false? 



106 ORGAMZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIVOIERCE 

Mr. MixAUDo. Xaturally ; but a couple of years after that I went 
out and tell who I was, and I have registered under my own name. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever stated that you landed in Boston? 

Mr. MiNAUDo. I don't remember if I did. 

Mr. BuRiJNG. You mean you have told some lies about your entry 
and you cannot remember when ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Well, 1 never told any lie to anybody, sir. I don't 
remember if I tell — I remember I did come in New Orleans. 

Mr. Burling. You just submitted that you told them you came in 
New York. Which was it? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Well, I don't say it wasn't true. 

Mr. Burling. Did you tell anybody that you came in in two differ- 
ent cities ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I had a good reason. In 1922 when I say I came 
into New York — the reason was that the Congress at that time didn't 
pass 3^et where I could have been legally here in this country. Eight 
after that the Congress passed a law that anybody that came in the 
States in 1924 before July 1, they can be legalized. That is the time 
I went to the Immigration and registered myself. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, the law on that, I believe, is that one 
who comes in and one who has entered prior to some date in 192-1: may 
not be deported. It does not mean he is legally in tlie country. H« 
is not deportable. 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Either way, sir, that is what it was. 

Mr. Burling. In other words, you lied to the Immigration Service 
about the year you came in ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Not the year. 

The Chairman. The place ? 

Mr. Burling. Year and place. Mr. Chairman, I believe the witness 
swore under oath to the Immigration Service that he entered in 1923. 

Mr. MiNAUDO. 1924, sir. 

Mr, Burling. No ; that is when you did come in. 

Mr. MiNAUDO. That is what I told to the Immigration, more than 
once; not once. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, the memorandum we have is that the 
subject was arrested at Detroit, Mich., September 8, 1932, at which 
time he gave his name as Guiseppe Mangiopani, and in a sworn state- 
ment claimed entry at the port of New Y'ork on September 27, 1923, 
which would put him before the 1924 date. In 1931 you were arrested 
hy the Immigration Service and placed under bond to be deported; 
is that right ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You deny that ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Absolutely, I do. The Immigration never put me 
-on bond in 1931. 

Mr. Burling. Were you arrested at all and put under bond in 1931 ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Not 1931. This was 1932, when I gave the name of 
Mangiopani. 

Mr. Burling. You were arrested at that time ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. 1932 — I wasn't arrested. They called me in. I 
•went in. 

Mr. Burling. At that time you were deported ; is that right ? 

Mr. Mjnaudo. X don't remember whether I was or not. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERiSTATEl COMMERCE 107 

Mr. Burling. In some way you managed to be here still; is that 
right ? 

Mr, MiNAUDO, Well, because I feel I am legally here today. I've got 
my papers already from the Immigration. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever applied for citizenship ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Yes. I am working on it right now for the last 
6 months. 

Mr. Halley. Have you actually filed papers ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Yes; my attorney already put the papers to the 
Immigration. 

Mr. Halley. When did you file ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I don't remember when he did. 

Mr. Halley. Was it before 1950? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Yes, sir ; 1950 was when we put it in. 

Mr. Halley. Between 1924 and 1950, you never applied for citizen- 
ship ? 

]\Ir, MiNAUDO. No, I never did. 

]\Ir. Burling. Have you ever been arrested in this country? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I was arrested a couple of times, yes. 

Mr. Burling. In 1927 were you arrested on a charge of loitering 
near a house of prostitution? 

Mr. ]\IiNAUD0. Well, I don't Icnow what kind of a charge they gave 
to me, but I was delivering olive oil at that particular address. 

Mr. Burling, I see. 

Mr. MiNAUDO. The police come over wdien I did that, and bring me 
down. 

Mr. Burling. And the sentence was $500 and 5 days in jail? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. There was no such a thing, not $500, because I never 
put no $500 in. 

Mr. Burling. Did you stay 5 days in jail? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I never did. 

Mr. Burling. You had your police record removed and destroyed 
by court order, didn't you ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Yes, sir, I did. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, the official police record has been 
destroyed. However, I have an unofficial copy, which indicates that 
this witness was given a fine of $500 and 5 days in jail on the charge 
stated. 

AVere you arrested for armed robbery in 1928 ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I don't remember, to tell you the truth. 

Mr. Burling. In 1932, were you arrested and discharged? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I don't remember if I was. I remember I was ar- 
rested for investigation a couple of times. 

Mr. Burling. Were you arrested on a charge of armed robbery and 
found not guilty in 1935 ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I remember I did. 

jNIr. Burling. Were you arrested on a charge of being a fugitive 
from a murder charge in 1936? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Were you ever arrested on a prohibition charge? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. No, sir, 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, the unofficial record indicates that if 
the police record had not been destroyed, it would have shown all 
such thino;s. 



108 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MiNAUDO Will you repeat that ? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. Your police record was destroyed. A copy 
of it, however, or a memorandum relating to it was not destroyed and 
was unofficially kept "and it reflects all such charges. 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I wasn't arrested in 1936. 

Mr. Burling. You weren't ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. No. I was arrested in 1935. 

Mr. Burling. Were you ever arrested on a charge of being a fugi- 
tive from a murder charge ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You, of course, would remember it if you had been 
charged with murder ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I suppose I would. 

Ml'. Burling. But you don't remember? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I never remember that there was a charge like that. 

Mr. Burling. A\niat is your present occupation? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I own a bowling alley. 

Mr. Burling. How about a bar ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I haven't any. 

Mr. Burling. Is there a bar in the bowling alley ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. There is a bar in the bowling alley. 

Mr. Burling. But you don't own it ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. No. 

Mr. Burling. Is it in the same building? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. I see. How much is that bowling alley worth ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Well, around $40,000. 

Mr. BuPtLiNG. And that is all yours ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You ran a saloon during the prohibition years? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. What was your occupation in the twenties? What 
did you do ? 

Mr. MiNAUNDO. From 1924 to 1931 I used to import oil from the 
old country and sell it here. In the depression time I had to quit 
because you can't sell no oil. People had no money at that time. 
Then I went into the grocery business up until 1934. From 1934 to 
1946 I was in the bar business. 

Mr. Burling. In 1941 you applied for a license to operate the De- 
Luxe Beer Distributors? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And on that form you had to state whether you had 
ever been arrested, is that right? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I couldn't tell you. 

Mr. Burling. You don't lemember that? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. No. 

Mr. Burling. Don't you remember that you stated that you had 
never been arrested ? 

Mr. MiNAiTDO. Well, I had my file already removed. 

Mr. Burling. But you had been arrested, hadn't you? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Well, even so. my file was removed. The record is 
clear. 

Mr. Burling. You thought it was all right to state under oath that 
you had never been arrested because the file was destroyed ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE. COMMERCE 109 

Mr. MiNAUDO. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling. Did yon have to swear to that application? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I don't remember whether I had to or not. 

Mr. Halley. Did you get a court order having your police record 
destroyed? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Pardon? 

Mr. Halley. Did you get some sort of a court order to get your 
police record destroyed ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. No, I just write a letter to the police department and 
had it removed. 

Mr. Halley. How did you manage to do that ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Well, that is the law. 

Mr. Halley. Where? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Here is the State of Michigan. 

Mr. Halley. What is the basis on which you are able to get your 
police record destroyed? 

Mr. jMinaudo. Pardon? 

Mr. Halley. What is the basis on which you got your record 
destroyed ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Well, I think anybody that is arrested just because 
somebody meets you on the street and no like your face and take you 
to the station and they book j^ou as robbery armed, it doesn't look very 
good, when you go and be in a legitimate business. That is the basis 
on why I asked my file to be removed. 

Mr. Halley. And, of course, it helped after that, if you wanted to 
ever deny 3^011 were arrested? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I don't say it helped. 

Mr. Halley. Well, it would be hard for somebody to prove that 
you were lying ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. That isn't the question w^hether it is hard to prove. 
It is a question if a man is arrested by mistake, either because a police- 
man thinks he is somebody else— I don't think in that case the man 
has any right to have any record in the police department. 

Mr. Halley. When you applied for a liquor license, they wanted to 
know if you had ever been arrested? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I never applied for a liquor license. I did apply for 
a salesman's permit. 

Mr. Halley. Did you get the license ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I got the license. 

Mr. Halley. Were you asked on that whether you had ever been 
arrested ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I don't remember if they did or not. 

Mr. Halley. It is possible ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. It could be possible. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever advise the liquor authorities that you 
had a record of arrests? 

Mr. MiNALTDO. Well, I didn't have anything to do with the liquor. 

Mr. Halley. When you applied for the salesman's permit? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I went to the permit department to do that. 

Mr. Halley. Of course, once your record had been destroyed, it 
wouldn't show up at the police department? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. That is right. 

68958 — 51 — pt. 9 8 



110 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling, A while back you operated the AVyoming Show Bar, 
is that right ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. And it was yours, wasn't it ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. It was mine and my wife's. JVIy wife was on the 
license. 

Mr. Burling. Yonr wife was on the license? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Bi rling. Didn't you have two fronts named Anthony Rug- 
girello and Joseph Angiler ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. No, sir. 1 never had those people for my partners. 

Mr. Burling. Who are those people ? 

Mr. MixAUDO. Some Italian people who own a bowling alley, 

Mr. Burling. Now, wasn't the liquor license in their names ? 

Mr. MiNAUBo. Where, on the Wyoming Show Bar? 

Mr. Buri.ing. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MiNAUDO. No, sir. At the Wyoming Show Bar the license was 
on my wife's name. 

Mr. Burling. I see. How about the Florentine Garden Restau- 
rant ? Did you ever operate that ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I never did. I worked there but I never had it. 

Mr. Burling. Now, did the^-e come a time — what is your interest 
in this local 600 of the United Auto Workers? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. My interest ? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. 

Mr, MiNAUDO. None. 

Mr. Burling. Why have you interfered in their elections ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I did? 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever taken any part 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I never did. 

Mr. Burling. Let me finish the question. Have you ever taken 
any part in the politics of local 600 ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I never did. 

Mr. Burling. By the way, what does local 600 cover ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I think it is Ford. 

Mr. Burling. You said that you never gave any money to any candi- 
dates for officials of local 600. 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I never did, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know any candidates of local 600? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Today ? No, I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. Going back, have you kown any ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. How long? 

Mr. Burling. Going back 10 years. 

Mr. MiNAUDO. The only man I know was some Italian fellow, John 
Ritt. 

Mr. Burling. Did you give him any money ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I never did give any money. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ask him to do anything with respect to local 
600? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I never. I never had nothing to do with that. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Harry Bennett? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I know of him. I read in the papers to Imow his face. 

Mr. Burling. You never met him. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 111 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I never talked to him in my life. 

Mr, BuRiJNG. You never met him ^ 

Mr. ]\IiNAUDO. I never talked to the man. 

Mr. Burling. Is it not the fact that during a meeting of the nego- 
tiating committee of the UAW delegate body repre?enting all Ford 
locals, you rented rooms in the hotels in which the.-e meetings were 
held, and gave out liquor and sought to influence members of the 
UAW? 

j\Ii\ MiNAUDO. I did not. 

Mr. Burling. Isn't that the fact? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Did you have anything to do with 

Mr. MiNAt^DO. No, sir. I never w^as interested in the union w^hatso- 
ever, no time. I never asked for any favors and never they give me 
one. 

Mr. BuRiJNG. That shows that you should wait until I have asked 
the question. Did you have anything to do with the Murphy Show 
Bar? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Paul St. Marie ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I used to know him ; yes. 

Mr. Bltrling. What were your relations with him ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Not a thing at all. He just come over and asked me 
what it was worth. 

Mr. Burling. You never discussed your union affairs with him? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. Never. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Joe Bommarito ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I heard about him. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know him ? 

JNIr. MiNAUDO. No. 

Mr. Burling. Have you met Pete Licavoli ? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I met him a couple of times. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Pete Corrado? 

Mr. MiNAUDO. I met him a couple of times somewhere, or a thing 
like that- I don't know anything about it. 

Mr. Burling. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. That is all. 

Mr. Burling. Just a minute, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Is Agent Mosser from the Immigration Service 
here? That is all. 

(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF ANDREW MOSSER, PATROLMAN INSPECTOR IN 
CHARGE, UNITED STATES IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION 
SERVICE, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you will give this 
committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God? 

Mr. MossER. I do. 

The Chairman. Will you state your full name ? 

Mr. MttssER. Andrew Mosser. 



112 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Mr. Mosser, you are connected witli the Immigra- 
tion Service? 

Mr. MossER. Yes. 

The Chairman. In ^vhat capacity? 

Mr. MossER. Patrolman inspector in charge. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Mosser, is it your duty to supervise the keeping 
of files on aliens illegally in the United States in this district? 

Mr. Mosser. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Are you familiar with the files? 

Mr, Mosser. I am familiar with the files ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. Have you, at the request of the committee, brought 
memoranda with you which would tell what the record is, with re- 
spect to convictions, for an alien by the name of Xono Minaudo ? 

Mr. Mosser. Yes ; I have a short memorandum on him. 

Mr. Burling. Does that come from the files of the Immigration 
and Naturalization Service? 

Mr. Mosser. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Will you read the memorandum into the record, 
please ? 

Mr. Mosser. The memorandum that I have prepared concerns Nono 
Minaudo, residence, 17418 Monica, Detroit, Mich. ; 50 years, 5 feet 8 
inches in height, 170 pounds, hazel eyes, and brown hair; wife, Jo- 
hanna Bommarito, and has United States-born children, names un- 
known. 

The files of the Immigration and Naturalization office at Detroit 
show that his correct name is Onafrio ]Minaudo. alias Joe ^langiopani, 
alias Giuseppe Mangiopani, alias Tony Palorai or Palaria, alias Ono- 
f rio Minardo. His file number is 8517/2833 ; 7011/A865G ; 55821/976 ; 
9280/913; 3511/537; 1000/3095. Subject first came to the attention 
of this Service through the acting Italian vice consul, July 29, 1925, 
who advised that subject had entered the United States illegally and 
was wanted for first-degree nuirder in Italy. Subject was arrested 
at Detroit, Mich., September 8, 1932, at which time he gave his name 
as Giuseppe Manaiapane, and in a sworn statement claimed entry at 
the port of New York on September 27, 1923, on the S. S. Conte Rosso, 
at which time he was legally admitted and charged to the quota of 
Italy. On the basis of this statement, an entry for a person of that 
name was verified at the port of New York. The charge contained 
in the warrant of arrest — to wit: "That he was not in possession of 
consular immigration visa at the time of his entry into the United 
States as required by the act approved ]May 26, 1924'' — was not sus- 
tained in a later hearing, and the warrant of arrest was canceled. 

On June 11, 1935, George G. Sadowski, Member of Congress, in- 
quired of this Service as to subject's immigration status. Congress- 
man Sadowski was informed by this Service that the subject case was 
not before the Detroit office at that time. 

Subject w\as again arrested at Detroit, Mich., date unknown, but be- 
lieved to be on or about July 12, 1935, at which time a statement was 
taken from him. He admitted at that time that in his previous state- 
ment he had used the alias Giuseppe Mangiocani, the name of a man 
well known to him who had effected a lawful entry at the port of New 
York on Se])tember 27, 1933. He admitted in one statement that he 
had landed as a stowaway or workaway from an unknown ship at the 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 113 

port of Boston, Mass., on March 2, 1921, while in another statement he 
<.-hiinied that he had entered the United States the first part of Febrn- 
ary 1921 at the port of Boston, Mass., as a member of the crew of an 
unknown ship. 

His fiist arrest occurred in Detroit, throuo-h the Detroit Police De- 
partment (Detroit Police Department file No. 23088) as Tony Palari, 
August 15, 1924, on a charoe of robbery armed, which was discharged. 

This case was referred to the centraloffice on July 15, 19o(j, question- 
ing whether a warrant of arrest for the subject could be obtained, based 
upon the evidence submitted by the State Department that the subject 
was sentenced to life imprisonment, in absentia, December 28, 1925, 
lor murder in Italy ; again sentenced, in absentia, May 5, 1927, to a term 
of 18 months for organized crime association and larceny; and again 
sentenced, in absentia. May 18, 1982, to 30 years for charges of at- 
tempted grand larceny, attempted murder, and copartnership in as- 
sault and theft; moreover, that extradition proceedings were being 
carried on. 

The central office, through inference, declined to commit itself and 
suggested that a further statement be taken from subject to determine 
if he would admit that he had been out of the United States subse- 
quent to July 1, 1921, or that he would admit the commission of crimes 
to which he was charged. 

It appears from the file that the alien was not further questioned 
along the lines suggested, and said file was marked '"'Closed." 

Eemarks : This alien registered under the Alien Registration Act of 
1940 under the name Nono Minaudo (No. 4480966). His residence 
at that time was 14288 Cherrylawn, Detroit, Mich. 

This man was wanted for murder and other crimes in Italy. 
Whether he is still wanted or not is not known, nor is it known if the 
Italian authorities are still desirous of extraditing him. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Mosser, as I understand it, the reason that the 
first deportation proceeding did not go through was that he was 
arrested in one district and that he gave the name of an immigrant 
who entered lawfully at the Imigration Service, who sent the name 
from the first district to the port of entry, where the lawful immigrant 
entered, and all they had to do was check to see that such a man with 
such a name had come in as claimed, and report back, and that is all 
that there was to it. 

Mr. MossER. That is correct. 

The Chairman. Mr. Mosser, it certainly is difficult to sit patiently, 
without any criticism of you individually, but certainly with criticism 
of the Service, because this certainly seems to be not only a miscarriage 
of justice but a glaring instance of how our immigration laws have 
been flouted. It certainly is a sad commentary, it seems to me, that a 
man can come into this country illegally, can remain here 27 years, be 
arrested on a number of occasions and virtually be a public enemy, 
and still be allowed to be here and to enjoy all the privileges of Amer- 
ican citizenship, when he came in originally and when he has shown 
himself unworthy since being here of remaining here. It is quite diffi- 
cult for us to understand how that can be, particularly when we, in 
Congi^ess, have had so many complaints and so many demands for 
worthy people to come from abroad and who are kept out of this coun- 
try because they are told there is no place in the United States for them. 



114 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

People who would come here, who are deserving immigrants. Yet, 
such a person as this one is allowed to be here illegally all that time. 

For example, in our fight for liberalization of the displaced-persons 
law, just in the past year or two, we were confronted at every turn 
with the fact that we cannot bring worthy people in here, people who 
have shown a desire to come to a land of liberty and democracy, simply 
because the country was already overrun by illegal aliens. It certainly 
seems to me to be a terrible fault on the part of some of the authorities. 
I want to make it very plain that I am not, of course, directing this to 
you or the present, but I am speaking about the past years that has 
allowed such a condition as this to exist. 

Mr. MossER. The file discloses that this man is not deportable under 
any law of the United States at the present time. 

Mr. Halley. For the record, Mr, Chairman, as you know, our in- 
vestigation shows that in recent years the Immigration Service has 
been most zealous in searching out these immigrants and in learning 
the facts about them and in making every effort to bring to the atten- 
tion particularly of this committee those who, like this immediate case 
before you, should be deported. 

The Chairman. That is correct. I quite agree with that. IMy only 
point is : It would not have been necessary to have the case brought 
forward if authorities years ago had been vigilant and had done their 
duty. 

Mr. MossER. Well, it wasn't the fault of the inspector, Senator, be- 
cause he was in possession of knowledge of a man who had come to 
this country legally and in a legal manner and was here legally. He 
knew that man, and that man's background, according to the files, and 
that information was furnished to our inspectors, and it was checked 
and they found a man such as he described. 

Mr. Burling. Was anything checked other than the fact that a man 
named Mangiopani had entered on a given boat at a given port on a 
given date? IVas anything further checked? 

Mr. Mosser. 1 am not in position to state. 

Mr. Burling. His file would show it? 

Mr. MossER. No ; the file doesn't show it. 

Mr. Burling. It would not be very difficult — would it ? — for an alien 
illegally here in one district to obtain the name of some friend that 
had come in legally at a port and to assume his name, if nothing is 
checked except boat, port of entry, and name and date ? 

Mr. MossER. In those years, I think that would be true ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. In other words, there was a hole back there in those 
years which we hope has been plugged. Is that right? 

Mr. Mosser. Well, that was before I w^as in the Service. I wouldn't 
be able to state. 

Mr. Burling. It would appear that way; would it not? 

Mr. Mosser. I would say if a man had all the information the immi- 
grant inspector would ask of an alien, and we would check that infor- 
mation that he gave, and if it came out right, why, the case would be 
dropped. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. 

We will take a short recess at this time. 

(Short recess.) 

The Chairman. Will the hearing please come to order? 

I call to the stand Max Zivian. Is Max Zivian here ? 



1 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 115 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, we called Mr, Zivian shortly after 
lunch and told him to be here at 3 o'clock. He or his lawyer said he 
would. 

The Chairman. Will counsel, with the staff of the committee, take 
steps to have him notified that he will testify this evening ? 

Mr, Burling. We will undertake to do that. 

The Chairman, Will Sam Perrone take the stand ? 

TESTIMONY OF SAM PERRONE, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman, Do you swear the testimony you will give this com- 
mittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God? 

Mr. Perrone. I do. 

Tlie Chairman. What is your name? 

Mr. Perrone. Sam Perrone. 

The Chairman. What is your address? 

Mr. Perrone. IIGI Berkshire. 

The Chairman, How long have you lived there ? 

Mr. Perrone. Around 4 years. 

The Chairman. Where did you live before that ? 

Mr. Perrone. Beaconsfield. 

The Chairman. What is your occupation ? 

Mr, Perrone, Coremaker. 

The Chairman. Now, I have to ask you at the outset to talk dis- 
tinctly and loudly so the stenographer and eveiybody else can hear 
you. 

Counsel, will you proceed ? 

Mr. Burling. Where did you say you lived ? 

Mr. Perrone. 1161 Berkshire. 

Mr. Burling. You are a coremaker? 

Mr. Perrone. I am a coremaker. I used to be a coremaker. 

]\Ir. Burling. Now you are a trucker? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Is this a photograph of your house ? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, for the purpose of illustrating the 
economic status of the witness, I ask that the photograph be put in 
evidence. 

The Chairman. It will be admitted in evidence. 

(The document identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 10, and appears in the appendix on p. 270.) 

]\Ir. Burling. Where were you born ? 

]Mr, Perrone. Italy, 

Mr, Burling. Where? 

Mr. Perrone. Alcom. 

The Chairman. What is the value of your house? How nmch is it 
worth ? 

Mr, Perrone. I paid $31,000. 

Mr. Halley. When did you buy it? 

Mr. Perrone. Around 3 or 4 years ago. I don't remember. It was 
at least 3 or 4 years ago. 

Mr. Burling. Will you state again where you were born? 

Mr. Perrone, Italy, 



116 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. Whereabouts in Italy? 

Mr. Perrone. Alcorn. 

Mr. Burling. Wliere is that? 

Mr. Perrone. Sicily. 

Mr. Burling. When did you come to the United States? 

Mr. Perrone. Around 1912. 

Mr. Burling. You are naturalized? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Is it correct that you have been either woi'king for oi" 
associated with the Detroit (Mich.) Stove Works for about 10 years? 

Mr. Perrone. I have been working, sure. 

Mr. Burling. For the stove works ? 

Mr. Perrone. I have been working for the stove works. 

Mr. Burling. For about 40 years ? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Is that about the largest plant in Detroit which is 
not associated with the automobile industry? Do you know? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know nothing. 

Mr. Burling. You don't "know nothing''? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know. 

Mr, BiiRLiNG. In order that the witness's testimony may be intel- 
ligible, Mr. Chairman, may I state for the record that it is my under- 
standing that this works is the largest nonautomotive works in Detroit. 
I may be wrong, but that is my understanding. 

Now, when did you learn to read and write? 

Mr. Perrone. I learned in the old country. 

Mr. Burling. In the old country ? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Can you read and write today? 

Mr. Perrone. No, I can't read or write much English ; a little bit. 

Mr. Burling. I see. Well, you can write a check for example? 

Mr. Perrone. No, I can't. 

Mr. Burling. You cannot? 

Mr. Perrone. No. I can sign, that is all. 

Mr. Burling. You don't even sign your checks, do you, Mr. Perrone ? 

Mr. Perrone. Sometimes I do. Sometimes my son-in-law do it. 

Mr. Burling. Mostly your son-in-law signs your name to your 
checks ? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Do you have a police record? 

Mr. Perrone. Well 

Mr. Burling. What is the answer, Mr. Perrone? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes ; I have been arrested a few times. 

Mr. Burling. How many times, do you think ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. Well, were you arrested in 1920 on the charge of 
murder ? Surely, you remember whether you were arrested on a charge 
of murder. 

Mr. Perrone. I remember I was arrested. 

Mr. Burling. Do you mean you do not know whether you were 
arrested in 1920 on a charge of murder ? 

Mr. Perrone. The next day they let you out— they arrest me first. 
They see a young fellow in the pool room and take you in. 



ORGA^'IZED CRIME IN INTER STATE COMMERCE 117 

Mr. Burling. So they charged you with murder because you were 
in a pooh'oom? And is that the way you saw the Detroit police 
operate ? 

Mr. Perrone. That is the way they used to do it then, 

Mr. Burling. Well, were you arrested in 1930 on a charge of pro- 
hibition violation ? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. I was arrested. 

Mr. Burling. And two different charges in 1930 on prohibition ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. Do you remember that once the Detroit police ar- 
rested you, and the other time you were turned over to the United 
States marshal ? And do you remember being locked up by the United 
States marshal? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember- 20 years ago. 

Mr. Burling. Well, how about being arrested in 1931 on the charge 
of investigation of arson? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Burling. Were you arrested in 1932 on a charge of investiga- 
tion ? 

Mr. Perrone. I must have been arrested. 

Mr. Burling. As to the 1933 investigation of arson, how about 
that? 

Mr. Perrone. Arson ? Somebody burned my garage, and they come 
over and arrested me, and turned me loose. 

Mr. Burling. You remember you were arrested ? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes; for my garage. 

Mr. Burling. In 1934, there was a charge of carrying concealed 
weapons ? 

Mr. Perrone. I never was arrested for concealed weapons. 

Mr. Burling. Never? We will come to that on another occasion. 

In 1935, it was the failure to stop at the scene of an accident, and 
were you arrested for that ? 

Mr. Perrone. An accident? 

Mr. Burling. Leaving the scene of an accident ? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

ISIr. Burling. Now, as to 1936, will you look around this courtroom, 
and do the walls look familiar to you ? Did you get a 6-year rap in 
1936 on a prohibition charge from Judge Lederle ? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Then you were in jail for a while, and then you were 
arrested for concealed weapons in 1942'? 

Mr. Perrone,. I've never been arrested for concealed weapons. 
1942? 

Mr. Burling. Yes, in 1942. 

Mr. Perrone. I've never been arrested for concealed weapons. 

Mr. Burling. Are you going to state under oath you were not ar- 
rested in connection with the charge of possessing concealed weapons 
in 1942 ? 

Mr. Perrone. I've never been arrested for concealed weapons in 
1942. 

Mr. Burling. Tell us what you know about the possession of con- 
cealed weapons in 1942, that you and your two brothers were investi- 
gated for. Think hard. 



118 ORGAKIIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Perrone. I never was arrested for concealed weapons. I never 
had a concealed weapon in my pocket. 

Mr. Burling. Can you think about a locker ? 

Mr. Perrone. Oh, in a locker? Now you talk different. 

Mr. Burling. Tell us about that. 

Mr. Perrone. Well, I was arrested and I was freed by the FBI. 
You know, they laiow it wasn't my gun. 

Mr. Burling. Gun or guns? 

Mr. Perrone. Guns — 1 was freed by the FBI. They find out they 
are not my guns. I was arrested, sure. I was arrested carrying a 
concealed weapon in my pocket. 

Mr. Burling. Your brother took the rap on that ; is that right i 

Mr. Perrone. It was his gun. 

Mr. Burling. What brother was that? 

Mr. Perrone. Matthew Perrone. 

Mr. Burling. Were you arrested again in 1945 ? 

Mr. Perrone. 1945 ? 

Mr. Burling. Yes, October 17, 1945, and turned over to the Oakland 
County sheriff? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. What for ? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, a woman was killed. 

Mr. Burling. A woman was killed ? 

Mr. Perrone. Is it not a fact she had on her body a note saying 
if anything happened to her, to ask you about it ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know a thing about it. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever hear that there was any note bearing 
your name found on her body ? 

Mr. Perrone. I've never Itnown a thing about it. 

Mr. Burling. Did you put the note there? Did you ever hear 
about it ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know a thing about it. 

Mr. Burling. You have heard about it; have you not? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, everybody heard about it. 

Mr. Burling. Tell us what you know about it. 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know nothing about it. 

Mr. Burling. Now, when you started out with the stove works, you 
worked as a manual laborer ; is that right ? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. You kept on as a coremaker ? 

Mr. Perrone. Coremaker; that's right. 

Mr. Burling. How much were you paid as a coremaker ? 

Mr. Perrone. I was making as high as twenty-two or twenty- 
three — $18 a day. 

Mr. Burling. Did there come a time when you went into the 
trucking business ? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. You got, in the agreement with the stove works, the 
right to haul their scrap out ; is that right ? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Now, at that time did you have a truck ? 

Mr. Perrone. Sure, I had a truck. 

Mr. Burling. How many trucks did you have ? 

Mr. Perrone. About three. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 119 

Mr. Burling. Did you have a yard ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr, Burling. Did you have any experience in the scrap business? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, somebody give me experience. 

Mr. Burling. Who gave you experience ? 

Mr. Perrone. I ask people where they sell the stuff. 

Mr. Burling. You were a manual laborer, with three trucks and 
no experience, and who could not read and write English ; is that right? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, I could read a little bit. 

Mr. Burling. Did you not testify before Judge Murphy you could 
not even read the signs going through the streets? 

Mr. Perrone. No, I never did. 

Mr. Bttrlino. W;> will mnk:^ a rrife and corns back to that. 

Mr. Burling. You did testify before Judge Murphy; didn't you? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. You testified at quite some length. 

Mr. Perrone. I didn't say I can't read streets. 

Mr. Burling. Can you read an English language newspaper? 

Mr. Perrone. I read a few^ words. Some works, I can't. 

Mr. Burling. Now, how did it happen that you got the arrange- 
ment to haul the scrap out of the stove works ? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, I figured I could make some money. I tried 
to go into business. 

Mr. Burling. What was it that equipped you in engaging in this 
business ? 

Mr. Perrone. I had some people that were doing the business tell- 
ing me, ''If you pick up scrap and sell it, you make money." 

Mr. Burling. I am not asking you as to what motivated your going 
into business. I am trying to find out what motivated the stove 
works to go into business with you. Does it seem si' prising to you 
that a man with so little education that he can't read and write, and 
almost no capital and no exi:)erience in business, and no yard, and a 
long criminal i-ecord be given a scrap haul-away contract worth in the 
hundreds of thousands of dollars? 

Mr. Perrone. No. That time only make $1 a ton profit — $4 a ton. 

Mr. Burling. How many tons of scrap were hauled out of the 
stove works at that time? 

Mr. Perrone. Maybe 10 ton, 5 ton ; I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. Ten tons a day ; is that right ? 

Mr. Perrone. That time, there wasn't much. 

Mr. Burling. A little bit larger than that ; wasn't it ? 

Mr. Perrone. What? 

Mr. Burling. A little bit bigger than that ; wasn't it ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Burling. The business has made you a rich man ; hasn't it ? 

Mr. Perrone. I am not a rich man. 

Mr. Burling. You are not a rich man ? Isn't it the fact that your 
income for the past 3 years has run about $40,000 a year ? 

Mr. Perrone, That's right. 

Mr. Burling. You have loaned your son-in-law, Orlando, money 
to put into the Hazel Park Race Track? 

Mr. Perrone. That's right. 

Mr, Burling. So that the scrap haul-away turned out pretty prof- 
itable as a venture; didn't it? 



120 ORGANIIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Perrone. Wlien I started and now is different. 

Mr. Burling. And your income in 1948 was $65,000; right? 

Mr. Perrone. If that is in there, that's right. 

Mr. Burling. Now, you didn't get this contract in relation to any 
labor situations ; did you ? In fact, you told me in my office, did you 
not, that the Detroit Stove Works had never had any labor trouble? 

Mr. Perrone. I never remember an}" labor trouble. 

Mr. Burling. You have been there 40 years, and you have never 
heard of any labor trouble at Detroit Stove AVorks ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Burling. Not at all? Not a single person beaten up; no 
blood? 

Mr. Perrone. I never seed nothing. 

Mr. Burling. You never heard of any ? 

Mr. Perrone. I never heard of any. 

Mr. Burling. You take your oath that you never heard of any 
labor trouble in the 40 years you have been with the stove works ? 

]\Ir. Perrone. I never heard of no trouble. 

Mr. Burling. And you didn't arrange with the stove works to beat 
up any union organizers, I suppose ? 

Mr. Perrone. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. The contract wasn't given to you in return for your 
supplying goons? 

Mr. Perrone. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. And in 1937, as you have already testified, you were 
given a sentence of 6 years' imprisonment ; is that right? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. What happened to the scrap haulage while you were 
in jail? 

Mr. Perrone. My wife was taking care of it. 

Mr. Burling. What experience did she have in the scrap haulage 
business ? 

Mr. Perrone. We had a man working — a man to just haul them, you 
know ; take them to the yard, you know. 

Mr. Burling. The stove works didn't think it would be a good idea 
to take it away from you when you got this long prison sentence? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, I worked all my life over there. It's a good 
thing they didn't take it away. 

Mr. Burling. How long did you serve ? 

Mr. Perrone. Three years. 

Mr. Burling. When did you get out ? 

Mr. Perrone. 1939. 

Mr. Burling. 1939 ? 

Mr. Perrone. That's right. They gave me a parole. 

Mr. Burling. You were paroled at that time? 

Mr. Perrone. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. Is it the^fact that wliile you were in jail, the CIO 
organized the stove works? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know anything about it. 

Mr. Burling. You don't know anything about that ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Burling. You never heard tliat story told to you ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 121 

Mr. Burling. Do you talk to other people at the stove works? 

Mr. Perrone. For what? 

Mr. Burling. About auythino-. Do you pass the time of day? 

Mr. Perrone. I never talk to anybody. 

Mr. Burling. You never talk to anybody at the stove works? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, I talk to somebody, you know, ''hello," "how are 
you,"' "how do you feel,"" and stulF like that. 

Mr. Burling. But you never talked about stuff like the CIO coming 
in while you were in jail ? You never heard that? 

Mr. Perrone. I never heard of anything. That's none of my 
business. 

Mr. Burling. I didn't ask you whether it was your business. I 
asked whether you heard of it. 

Mr. Perrone. I never heard of it. . 

Mr. Burling. By the way, you've got a brother, Gasper, is that 
right? 

Mr. PeUrone. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. And he is in the stove works too ? 

Mr. Perrone. He is in the stove works. 

Mr. Burling. And he went to jail with you, the same charge, same 
sentence ? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. He served that at Leavenworth ? 

Mr. Perrone. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. After he got out, he went back to the stove works 
too? 

Mr. Perrone. We both went back. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, we now have obtained the minutes 
of Judge Murphy's grand jury hearing, and we are looking through 
to see if we can find the testimony that I earlier referred to. 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember what I said — I can read a sign, 
you know. I can't read much, you know 

The Chairman. All right. Next question. 

Mr. Burling. Do you have a son-in-law who is Angelo Meli's son? 

Mr. Perrone. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. And you have another son-in-law named Orlando ? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. And you have another son-in-law named Renda? 
Is that right? 

Mr. Perrone. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Angelo Meli ? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Perrone. Oh, about a long time. 

Mr. Burling. What business is he in ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know. He's got a farm, I guess.. 

Mr. Burling. You guess he's got a farm ? 

Mr. Pebrone. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever hear he was in the juke box racket? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Burling. You never heard he had any relation to juke boxes? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Burling. Now, Orlando, your son-in-law, handles your check- 
ing account ; is that correct ? 



122 ORGAKIIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE. OOQVIMERCE 

]VIr. Perrone. That's ri^ht. 

Mr. Burling. And he draws very large sums in cash, does he ? 

Mr. Perrone. What ? 

Mr. Burling. He draws very large sums in cash, does he not ? 

Mr. Perrone. Cash? 

Mr. Burling. You know, currency. 

Mr. Pebrone. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Burling. Currency means money, dollar bills, $10 bills. $100 
bills. 

Mr. Perrone. $20,000? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. Would you like to see the check? 

You don't recall any occasion on which your son-in-lav: di'ew a 
check for $20,000 ? 

Mr. Perrone. I give it to him. 

Mr. Burling. You gave your son-in-law $20,000 ? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. I gave him that when he bought the stock. 

Mr. Burling. Did you give him $30,000? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes, in cash. 

Mr. Burling. Now, why did you give it to him in cash ? 

Mr. Perrone. Because I had it in cash. 

Mr. Burling. You keep a box with a lot of cash in it at your house, 
do you ? 

Mr. Perrone. I used to do that. 

Mr. Burling. How much cash ? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, all I had. 

Mr. Burling. $50,000 ? 

Mr. Perrone. No, I had only $30,000 ; $20,000 I had in the bank. 

Mr. Burling. But you gave — Now, you didn't invest in Hazel Park 
yourself, did you ? 

Mr. Perrone. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. In fact, you told me that you knew that you couldn't 
make any money in that kind of business ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't believe there was any money in it. He said, 
"Leave me try." He didn't understand, and I lent him the money and 
said, "Go ahead and do what you want to do." Tliat was his business. 

Mr. Burling. You told me that you didn't believe that Hazel Park 
would make money and you didn't want to invest in it? 

Mr. Perrone. I didn't want to. 

Mr. Burling. That is what you told me in my room? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. That it won't make any money ? 

Mr. Perrone. That I don't know. For my part, I don't understand 
the business. 

Mr. Burling. How old is Orlando? 

Mr. Perrone. Twenty-six. 

Mr. Burling. So he was 24 or 25 when you loaned him the money? 

Mr. Perrone. Something like that. 

Mr. Burling. So, although you thought that Hazel Park would not 
make any money 

Mv. Perrone. I don't understand that business. 

Mr. Burling. Just a moment. I want to finish my question. Al- 
though you thought Hazel Park wouldn't make money, that it was 
not a business that you would have anything to do with, you loaned 
your 24-year-old son-in-law $50,000 to invest in it, is that right? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 123 

Mr. Perrone. Invest in it for himself. 

Mr. Burling. Does that make any sense to you ? 

Mr. Perrone. Why '\ 

Mr. Burling. Why woukl you lend a 2-l:-year-old boy $50,000, your 
son-in-law, to invest in a business which you thought was a sure loser? 

Mr. Perrone. I didn't think it was going to lose. I said I wasn't 
interested. 

Mr. Burling. You told me, and you just testified a moment ago that 
you thought that it Avould not make any money. 

Mr. Perrone. I didn't say it wouldn't make any money. I figured 
there wasn't any money to make in it. He figured that he could make 
some money in it. 

Mr. Burling. How could he make any more money buying Hazel 
Park stock than you could ? 

Mr. Perrone. I am not interested in the business. 

Mr. Burling. All right. Now, at the same time that you gave 
Orlando $50,000 to invest in this business, Carl Renda loaned him 
$35,000 to put in, is that rght? 

Mr. Perrone. To who? 

Mr. Burling. To Orlando. 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know a thing about that. 

Mr. Burling. Have you forgotten that you told me that in my room ? 

Mr. Perrone. No, I said his brother-in-law lent him some more 
money. I didn't say Carl Renda. I didn't say such a thing. 

Mr. BuRi.iNG. Excuse me, but you did. 

Mr. Perrone. No, I didn't. 

Mr. Burling. You deny that you told me in my office that Carl 
Renda put up another $35,000? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't say such a thing. I say lent him $50,000; 
the rest, where he got them, the brother-in-law lend him. 

Mr. Burling. You did not tell me it was Renda ? 

Mr. Perrone. He don't ask me Mr. Renda. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, my recollection is that I did ask him 
and that he did tell me it was from Renda. 

Mr. Perrone. You didn't ask me Renda. I said brother-in-law 
lend him the rest ; whatever he lend him, $10,000, $30,000, or $50,000, 
I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. What brother-in-law are you talking about ? 

Mr. Perrone. Brother-in-law of Tino, of Orlando,'is Carl Renda. 

Mr. Burling. Carl Renda is Orlando's brother-in-law? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Then we are, in fact, talking about Renda? 

Mr. Perrone. That's right. You don't ask me the day I talk to 
you if it Carl Renda, or did Carl Renda lend him the money. 

Mr. Burling. It was Carl Renda. 

Mr. Perrone. It was Carl Renda, but I say brother-in-law lend him 
the rest. 

Mr. Burling. Then the difference in- our recollection is merely 
whether I asked you the fact that it is a fact that Carl Renda loaned 
him $35,000 or $30,000 ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know how much he loaned. 

Mr. Burling. Do you deny you told me it was $35,000? 

]\Ir. Perrone. I never say $35,000, because I don't know how much 
he lend. 



124 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERS'TATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. By the way, liow many Cadillacs do you own ? 

Mr. Perrone. Two. 

Mr. Burling. Do you have any other cars ? 

Mr. Perrone. I got a Ford car, too. 

Mr. Burling. Do you carry a gun? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Have you got it on you ? 

Mr, Perrone. No. 

Mr. Burling. Why do you carry a gun ? 

Mr. Perrone. Because I carry money. 

Mr. Burling. Why do you carry so much money in cash ? 

Mr. Perrone. I got to pay my men. 

Mr. Burling. How many men do you have working for you? 

Mr. Perrone. About 15 or 16, around there. 

Mr. Burling. Can you tell us approximately what youi net worth 
is? Do you understand that term? 

Mr. Perrone. What term? 

Mr. Burling. The term, how much money you are worth. How 
much money have you got? What is the value of your business and 
your house and the cash you have in the box and in your bank account 
and your cars ? What are you worth ? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, I don't know, 

Mr. Burling. Approximately? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know, 

Mr, Burling, Is it $200/>00? 

Mr. Perrone. No, 

Mr, Burling, Is it $100,000? 

Mr, Perrone. I don't know, I will have to figure it out. 

Mr. Burling. Of course, you will have to figure it out to get it to the 
last cent, but I am asking you roughly. 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know how much money I got in the bank. I 
don't know how much worth is everything I have. 

Mr. Burling. How much money do you have in your strongbox in 
the house today? 

Mr. Perrone, I don't got no money in the house. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, the testimony I have reference to in 
Judge Murphy's record starts at page 3676 : 

The Court : You moved over to Beaconsfield. 

Answer. Yes. 

The Court. That number is what? 

Answer. No. 869. I got another home on Townsend, you know. 

The Court. No. 869 is near what side street? 

Answer. I don't linow the street, you know. 

The Court. Don't you know the street nearest to you? 

Answer. It is hard for me to say the name of the street. 

I never look at the corner of the street. 
(By Mr. Garber:) 

Question. You have been living there 2i/^ years? 
Answer. Yes. 

Then there is something which is obviously a misprint, and the 
answer : 

Answer. I can't read the street — some street, like you say, Canton, Concord, 
it's just like Italian, I could remember. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 125 

Mr. Pp:rrone. Some street I can't read. 

Mr. Burling. Just a minute. I am reading this into the record. 
Then the court said that "This is off the record." 
(By Mr. Garber:) 

Question. Do you drive a truck? 

Answer. Sui'e. 

Question. How do you find your way aroiuid town if you drive a truck and 
can't read the streets? 

Answer. Well, I ask the people if I can't read the streets. 

Question. Did you ever ask the people what cross street is near your house? 

Answer. I never bothered. I know I go down .Jefferson Avenue, go right 
home. 

Does that refresh your recollection, Mr. Perrone, that you told 
Judge Murphy you couldn't read street signs ? 

Mr. Perrone. Some streets I can't read; some I can. 

Mr. Burling. If it is an easy word, you can read it? 

Mr. Perrone. These words like Italian, I can read ; some letters I 
can't read it. See ? That's as what I told him. 

Mr. Burling. You never have talked — by the way, who is the pres- 
ident of the Michigan Stove Works ? 

Mr. Perrone. Mr. Fry. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever talked to him about labor problems 
of any sort '? 

Mr. Perrone. Never. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever talked to anyone associated with the 
Detroit, Mich., Stove Works about labor problems? 

Mr. Perrone. I never talked to nobody, and nobody talked to me. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever taken part in any labor activities 
at the stove works ? 

Mr. Perrone. Never. 

Mr. Halley. I am curious to know how you got that scrap con- 
tract. How did you get into the scrap business? 

Mr. Perrone. I buy scrap and sell it. 

Mr. Halley. You were working at the stove works; is that right? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. As a coremaker? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Wlien did you first go into the scrap business? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, when I asked him if he wanted to sell it to me 
and I'd buy them and sell them. 

Mr. Halley. Who did you ask? 

Ml-. Perrone. The superintendent. 

Mr. Halley. The superintendent? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. What is his name? 

Mr. 1'errone. I can't even say that name — Kennell. 

Mr. Halley. Kennell ? 

Mr. T^ERRONE. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Was he superintendent of the whole plant? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You have known him for many years? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. 

<>89o8 — 51 — pt. 9 9 



126 ORGANHZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE CO'MMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Were you a foreman in the core-making department? 
or just a core maker? 

Mr. Perrone. Core maker. 

Mr. Halley. You were not a foreman ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Halley. You were not a boss of any kind ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Halley. When did you ask him if you could haul the scrap? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, I asked him — you see, there is a lot of scrap in 
there, and I asked him if he wants to sell it to me so I could make some 
money, I figured, for myself. I started buying, hauling, and give him 
service. 

Mr. Halley. How long ago was that? Was it before you went 
to prison? 

Mr. Perrone. AVhen I got the truck. 

Mr. Halley. When did you get the truck? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember. It is 1934, or 1935, or something 
like that, you know — 1933, you know. 

Mr. Halley. Did you get the truck first, or did you find out if Ken- 
nell would sell you the scrap ? 

Mr. Perrone. No; I had the truck, you know, hauling stoves and 
dirt and cinders and gravel 

Mr. Halley. When you doing that with the truck ? In your spare 
time ? 

Mr. Perrone. No; I was working all the time. I had a few men 
working with the truck. 

Mr. Halley. You mean while you were working as a core maker 
you had the trucking business, too ? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. When did you buy the truck ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember if it is 1933 or 1931, you know. 

Mr. Halley. Then after you had the truck, you asked if you could 
haul the scrap out ; is that right ? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, I see scrap in there. I figured I could make 
some money, go in business — in the scrap business. 

Mr. Halley. The superintendent said he would let you have the 
business ? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. The other people don't haul them, 
keep it in there — "Go ahead ; if you keep them clean, you can have 
them." I have been giving him service and cleaning all the time. 

Mr. Halley. Did you make a contract for what you would pay for 
the scrap ? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How much money did you make out of the scrap busi- 
ness between 1934 and 1937? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Well, did you make $50,000 ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. At that time you can't make nothing. 

Mr. Halley. At that time there was not much money in scrap ; is 
that right ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr, Halley. Then you went to jail and you served 3 years? 

Mr. Perrone. That is riorht. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 127 

Mr. Halley. During all that time, they let your wife keep on haul- 
ing the scrap ? 

Mr. Perrone. I had a brother, too, you know — ^lie take care of the 
business. 

Mr. Halley. They did not take that contract away from you ? 

Mr. Perrone. My brother was handling, and my wife. 

Mr. Halley. Kennell kept on being the superintendent? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr. Halley. Is he still the superintendent ? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. When you got out of jail, you went right back to the 
scrap business ? 

Mr. Perrone. Scrap business and core-room department. We work 
in the core room, handling scrap, and everything. 

Mr. Halley. Who was "we" ? 

Mr. Perrone. Me and my brother. 

Mr. Halley. You both got out of jail and went back to the core 
room ? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You continued handling the scrap, too ? 

Mr. Perrone. The same thing. 

Mr. Halley. Are you still in the core room ? 

Mr. Perrone. My brother is. 

Mr. Halley. Where are you ? 

Mr. Perrone. I have got a gas station and scrap business and truck. 

Mr. Halley. You do not Avork for the stove company now ; is that 
right? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, I haul everything for them, still working for 
them. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any other customers ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Halley. Just the stove works ? 

Mr. Perrone. Just the stove works. 

Mr. Halley. Was there any particular reason why Kennell gave 
you this contract ? Did he like you ? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, I work there all my life since I was 14 years 
old. We gave him good service, working every day and Sunday and 
any time. This was our reward for good service, and we keep them 
clean. 

Mr. Halley. Were there ever any fights around the stove works? 

Mr. Perrone. I never had a fight. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see anybody have a fight? 

]\Ir. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Halley. Were the police ever called on account of a fight \ 

Mr. Perrone. Police? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Perrone. Police come in my station one time. 

Mr. Halley. I mean at the stove works. 

Mr. Perrone. I never see no fight. 

Mr. Halley. You never saw a fight ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr, Halley. You never heard of the police being called on ac- 
count of a fight ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 



128 ORGANIIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. That is all. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Perrone, I am going to show you a page of ex- 
hibit No. 1, and ask you if you can read enough to read the words in 
large print. 

Mr. Pp:rrone. I can read "Sam Perrone." 

Mr. Burling. Did you put that ad in this book I 

Mr. Perrone. What is that ? 

Mr. Burling. It is the dance given on November 12, 1949. Do you 
remember putting this ad in this book ? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, I don't know. Maybe — what is it? 

Mr. Burling. It is a souvenir program of a dance. I want to know 
if you put the ad in. I think it cost $100. 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know if I did or not. 

Mr. Burling. You don't remember? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Burling. Will you look at the bottom advertisement on the 
right-hand page facing you ? Can you read those words in large 
print? 

Mr. Perrone. Perrone Service. 

Mr. Burling. That is your gas station ? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Did you put that ad in ? 

]Mr. Perrone. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. I see. Now, do you remember now whether you ever 
drew a check in cash for $20,000? I think you said you did a while 
back, a clieck for $20,000 in cash. Did you ever draw that much cash 
out of the bank at one time? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes: at one time I think I did. 

Mr. Burling. Is this the check ? 

Mr. Perrone. Sure, it is my name. 

Mr. Chairman. Who was it signed by? 

Mr. Perrone. This is signed by me. 

The Chairman. And drawn on what bank ? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, at this bank [indicating] . 

The Chairman. Who was it paid to? 

Mr. Perrone. This check? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember if I paid it on the house or left 
it to my son-in-law at that time. 

Mr. Burling. But you drew it out in cash anyhow ? 

Mr. Perrone. I think it w\as for the house. 

Mr. Burling. You drew it in cash ? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, I drew it in cash to pay on my house or some- 
thing like that. 

Mr. Burling. You say you have a gun permit? 

Mr. Perrone. When? 

IVIr. Burling. Do you have a permit to carry a gun ? 

Mr. Perrone. When. 

Mr. Burling. You said you had to carry a gun now. 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

Mr. Bi"RLix(;. Do you have a permit? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Do you have it with you ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 129 

Mr. Burling. Do you know who signed the permit ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. Will yon get in touch with the committee office to- 
morrow, and let ns know who signed your gun permit? 

Mr. Perrone. I will have to bring it in and show it to you. 

Mr. Burling. You don't need to come in. Just telephone and tell 
us who signed the permit. 

Mr. Perrone. O. K., I will call you up and tell you. 

Mr. Burling. Thank you. 

Did you ever engage in smuggling any aliens into this country? 

Mr. Perrone. No, sir. 

Mr. Bltrling. Did you ever arrange to have them employed at 
the stove works? 

Mr. Perrone. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Antonio Palazzolo? Do you know 
him ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. All right. Do you know Vito Manzella? 

Mr. Perrone. Manzella? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. 

Mr. Perrone. I know a guy by that name. 

Mr. Burling. All right. Now, Manzella entered illegally crossing 
the Detroit River. 

Do you know Michaelangelo Vitale ? Do you know him ? 

Mr. Perrone. I probably would if I see him. 

Mr. Burling. How about Michael Chirco? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Gino Maggetti ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Vincenzo Mannino ? 

Mr. Perrone. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Do you knoAv Luigi Chirco ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. Maybe I would if I see him, 

Mr. Burling. Salvatore Lioni ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Burling. Guiseppe DiMaggio, Calogero D'Anna? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Burling. Of Wyandotte, Mich. ? 

Mr. Perrone. No, 

Mr. Burling. I might say, Mr. Chairman, that this is a list of per- 
sons received from the Immigration Service, all of whom are persons 
who have illegally entered the country, and who were found to be 
working at the Detroit (Mich.) Stove Works. 

Paolo DiMaggio? Giovanni Vitale? Do you know him? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, I would ])robably know him if I see hiuL He 
probably works in the stove works. 

Mr. Burling. Michaele Donato? Dominico Manzella, Salvatore 
lacopelli? 

Mr. Perrone. If I see him, probably I know- him. 

Mr. Burling. Vito Palazzolo? 

Mr. Perrone. I probably know him. 

Mr. Burling. Giuseppe Ventimiglia? Giuseppe Vitale ? Anthony 
Palazzolo ? Rosario Vitale ? 

Mr, Perrone. I heard all those names. 



130 ORGANHZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. Have you any idea how that lon^ list of names of 
aliens who entered the country illegally all came to be working at the 
stove works ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know a thing about it. 

Mr. Burling. It wasn't your doing ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this check for $20,000 in 
cash should be incorporated into the record, as well as this list of aliens. 

The Chairman. They will be admitted and incorporated into the 
record. 

(The documents identified were thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibits Nos. 11 and 12, and appear in the appendix on pp. 271 and 272, 
respectively.) 

Mr. Burling. Your brother has a place on Lake Pontchartrain, 
does he? 

Mr. Perrone. Where he lives? 

Mr. Burling. Does he have a place on the lake? 

Mr. Perrone. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. And he has a speedboat, does he not? 

Mr. Perrone. That's right. ' 

Mr. Burling. Does he smuggle aliens in with the speedboat ? 

Mr. Perrone. No ; my brother don't do that. 

Mr. Burling. You know Melvin Bishop, don't you ? 

Mr. Perrone. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You don't ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Burling. Think carefully. Do you not know Melvin Bishop ? 

Mr. Perrone. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Weren't you arrested with him ? 

Mr. Perrone. Wliat? 

Mr. Burling. Were you not arrested in his company ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know him. 

Mr. Burling. I will see if I can refresh your recollection : Were 
you not in a car, hunting, and were you not arrested and charged with 
hunting with the use of a powerful searchlight or spotlight ? 

Mr. Perrone. I was going to the village, and they blamed it on me 
for that, and I was arrested, and I had 3 or 4 guys, and they come in 
my cabin, and I took them to the village, and I was arrested 

Mr. Burling. Who was arrested ? 

Mr. Perrone. Because of the gaming laws. He thought we were 
shooting the deer with the lights. 

Mr. Burling. This committee isn't in the least interested in viola- 
tions of the gaming laws. We are interested in whether you were 
arrested in the company of Melvin Bishop. 

Mr. Perrone. I was arrested with a few guys. I don't know their 
names. I don't remember the names. 

Mr. Burling. Do you go hunting with people whose names you 
don't know ? 

Mr. Perrone. I no was going hunting. They come over to my 
cabin, 10 or 15 guys, you know. 

Mr. Burling. I don't know. Who came to your cabin ? Where is 
your cabin ? 

Mr. Perrone. Up north. 

Mr. Burling. Where? 

Mr. Perrone. In the Cummins. 



ORGANIZED' CRIME IN INTERSTATE; COMMERCE 131 

Mr. Burling. And what do you say happened? You say these 
men came to your cabin? 

Mr. Perrone. They come that night. 

Mr. Burling. Why did they come there ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know. See, I don't know all of them by 
name. I know if I see them. If I see them, I know them. See, one 
guy bring another guy, and another guy bring another guy, and I 
happened to go to the village, and we got arrested. They figured we 
use lights — it was in the nighttime. We were going to the village, you 
know. They come with me, three or four guys. 

Mr. Burling. Would it come to you as a surprise, if I show you 
one of the men arrested with you is Melvin Bishop ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember the name, see. If it was Mel Bishop 
or Jones or Joe, I don't remember. Probably if I see, I know the guy. 
I could remember, you see. 

Mr. Burling. What is your baptismal first name ? 

Mr. Perrone. First name? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. 

Mr. Perrone. My real name is Santo Perrone. 

Mr. Burling. Santo? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. They call me Sam. It's easier to say Sam 
than it is to say Santo. 

Mr. Burling. And how many children have you ? 

Mr. Perrone. Three. 

Mr. Burling. One is Mrs. Renda ? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. One is Mrs. Orlando? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes, and Mrs. Meli. 

Mr. Burling. And you advanced about at least $50,000 to Orlando ? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Have you advanced any money to Mr. Meli? 

Mr. Perrone. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ? 

Mr. Perrone. Sure. 

Mr. Burling. About how much ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know if it's $12,000 or $13,000, something like 
that. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever advanced any money to Mr. Renda? 

Mr. Perrone. Sure, one time I did. 

Mr. Burling. How much ? 

Mr. Perrone. $32,000. 

Mr. Burling. When? 

Mr. Perrone. It's 6 or 7 years ago. 

Mr. Burling. And he has paid you back? 

Mr. Perrone. Paid me back. 

Mr. Burling. In other words, the only one of your three daughters 
now that hasn't got any share of your wealth is Renda, Mrs. Renda, 
is that right ? 

Mr. Perrone. Share of my wealth, what ? 

Mr. Burling. Share of your wealth, your money. 

Mr. Perrone. My money ? 

Mr. Burling. You have advanced money to the Orlando family, 
and you have advanced money to the Meli family, but as of today, 
you haven't advanced any money to the Renda family. 



132 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Perrone, They don't need any money from me, the Renda 
family. 

Mr. Burling. Yon did them another favor, didn't you ? 

Mr. Perrone. Sure. It's my son-in-law. I helped him out. 

Mr. Burling. You fixed him up at Brio;gs, didn't you? 

Mr. Perrone. I never fixed nothing; at Brigo;s. I don't know Briggs. 

The Chairman. At this juncture, we will take a recess until 8 
o'clock this evening. 

(Whereupon, at 6 p. m., a recess was had until 8 p. m., the same 
day.) 

evening session . 

The Chairman. The session will please come to order. 
I w^ould like to recall Mr. Mosser to the stand. 

You have been previously sworn and it will not be necessary to swear 
you again. 

Mr. Burling, will you proceed ? 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF ANDREW MOSSER, DETROIT, MICH. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Mosser, during the last hour of the session, I read 
a list of aliens off that I said illegally entered the country. Did you 
hear me read that list? 

Mr. MossER. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Are you acquainted with that list ? 

Mr. MossER. Yes. 

The Chairman. I hand you exhibit No. 14, which is the list in 
question. 

Mr. Burling. Does that list come from the files of the Inmiigration 
and Naturalization Service? 

Mr. MossER. It was prepared in the immigration office ; yes. 

Mr. Bltrling. Can you tell me, if you know, wdiat the files of the 
Immigration Service show w^ith respect to the place of employment 
of those persons ? 

Mr. MossER. All of these aliens were employed at the Detroit, ISIich., 
Stove Co. 

Mr. BiTRLiNG. Was there a case made that was about to be broken 
to apprehend the whole list ; do you know that ? 

Mr. MossER. Well, I don't exactly know what j-ou mean by a "case 
broken." 

Mr. Burling. A case made. 

Mr. Mosser. A case made ? We started to apprehend these i)eople at 
their homes. I think w^e got about three or four of them, and the rest 
of them skipped out. 

Mr. Burling. They fled, in other words ? 

Mr. MossER. That 'is right. 

Mr. Burling. You verified the place of employment as the Detroit, 
Mich., Stove Works ? 

Mr. MossER. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Will you look at the list and see if it shows all of the 
people entered the United States illegally ? 

Mr. MossER. Yes; all of them entered illegally with an exception, 
with possibly more than one, maybe two, who entered as visitors to 
the United States. That is, they had a passport and came to the United 
States as visitors. 



ORGANIZED' CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 133 

The Chairman. Were tliey visitor's visas ? 

Mr. MossER. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And tliey overstayed the permit and remained in 
the United States? 

Mr. MossER. That is right. They accepted employment in the 
United States, which is contrary to law. 

Mr. Burling. That is all I liave, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The only qnestion I have is, Do yon know whether 
they were employed at or abont the same time, let us say? Whether 
or not the}^ were on the employment rolls as of the same time ? 

Mr. Mosser. Yes ; I think that every one of them was employed at 
the stove works on January 9, 1950. I am not absolutely certain about 
it, but I think most of them were. 

Tlie Chair3ian. It is observed that there are 20 on the rolls. Have 
you any idea as to the total employment of the company, about the 
approximate employment as of that time ? 

Mr. Mosser. I wouldn't know. I could just guess. One thousand, 
perhaps. 

The Chairman. That strikes me as a very high percentage of em- 
ployment, to have such a number of illegal aliens on the rolls as of one 
time. Counsel, wdio is well informed, indicates that there are 750 
as of that date. AVould that correspond with your general knowledge ? 

Mr. Mosser. Yes, I, of course, have no direct knowledge. AH I 
know is just what I can guess at as the number employed at that plant. 
We did check that. 

Mr. Burling. Thank you very much. 

The Chairman. Thank you. You are excused. 

( Witness excused. ) 

The Chairman. Max J. Zivian. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this committee will 
be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Zivian. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MAX J. ZIVIAN, DETROIT, MICH., ACCOMPANIED 
BY JOSEPH A. VIESON, ATTORNEY, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Will you give your name? 

Mr. Zivian. Max J. Zivian. 

The Chairman. I might observe that we had requested Mr. Zivian 
earlier this afternoon. Apparently there was some misunderstanding 
with regard to the exact time. 

Mr. Zivian. This w^as set for tomorrow morning. 

The Chairman. Yes. There was some change in the arrangements. 
The only reason I am making that comment now is because we are 
just breaking the line of the continuity. 

Mr. Burling. I think we should emphasize, Mr. Chairman, that 
nothing whatever should be drawn from the fact that Mr. Zivian was 
not here, and it was obviously in good faith, and there was confusion 
as to appointments. 

Mr. ViESON. We had agreed, Mr. Chairman, to have Mr. Zivian 
voluntarily appear at any time, and the time that we were given was 
10 o'clock Friday morning. Through some confusion of the com- 
mittee, they asked to have him here at 3 o'clock. We did not agree 



134 ORGANHZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

to have him here, and we said we would do what we could do to have 
him here. We do have him present now. 

Mr. Burling. I am not going to have the committee left in the po- 
sition of being confused. It is correct, Mr. Chairman, that we had 
originally agreed on the hour of 10 o'clock; but, if counsel wishes to 
argue about it, we did request that Mr. Zivi^n be here, and we were 
informed that he would be here at 3 o'clock. 

Mr. ViESON. You were not informed he would be here. We told 
you we would try to have him here. 

The Chairman. Counsel, I think we can probably terminate this 
end of it by saying Mr. Zivian is not considered at fault in the slight- 
est, or his very able counsel, either. We are more intent on getting 
the facts, and it may have been a question of a little misunderstanding 
on both sides for which nobody is responsible. So let us proceed now 
and get to the heart of it. 

Mr. Burling. I think perhaps also, Mr. Chairman, a prefatory 
remark might be in order, that the fact that someone is called before 
this committee is in itself no indication that that person or a corpo- 
ration associated with him is himself a racketeer or criminal of any 
sort. The committee ranges over a very wide scope of information, 
and the record will speak for itself, but the mere fact that someone 
is called here or questioned here should be taken by no one as any sort 
of discredit. 

The Chairman. That is correctly stated. There is no inference to 
be drawn at all from the appearance. The very best of citizens might 
appear. As a matter of fact, they probably will in the course of these 
proceedings. They have elsewhere — some of the finest citizens. 

The very fact of their attendance does not indicate they are blame- 
worthy in any respect. 

Mr. Burling. You only have to look back to this morning, Mr. 
Chairman. As I remember, the governor of the State and the mayor 
of the city appeared. 

The Chairman. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling. Now, will you go back to the year 1946 and state 
what business you had been in for 2 or 3 years before that ? 

Mr. ZrvTAN. I had been with the Detroit Steel Corp. since 1923. 

Mr. Burling. From 1923 to 1946 you were with the Detroit Steel 
Corp.? 

Mr. Zivian. Up until the present time. 

Mr. Burling. From 1923 to 1946 you were with the Detroit Steel 
Corp. as it was then constituted ? 

Mr. Zivian. Yes. I have never been any place else. 

Mr. Burling. As of January 1, 1946, will you state what position 
you had with that corporation ? 

Mr. Zivian. President. 

Mr. Burling. January 1, 1946? 

Mr. Zivian. Yes, sir. I became president July 1, 1944. 

Mr. Burling. Then to go back to January 1944— — 

Mr. Zivian. I was vice president. 

Mr. Burling. In what year was the merger between Detroit Steel 
Corp. and Reliance? 

Mr. Zivian. 1944. 

Mr. Burling. I have a typographical error in my notes. As of 
January 1, 1944, will you name the officers of the Detroit Steel? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 135 

Mr. ZiviAN. The president was W. C. Schrage. The executive vice 
president was Arthur Schrage. 

Mr. Burling. Will you please spell that last name ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. S-c-h-r-a-g-e. I was the vice president. Joseph Polte 
was the vice president. Anton Polte was the vice president. Robert 
Kelley was a vice president ; and Roger Yoder, I think, was secretary- 
treasurer at the time. 

Mr. Burling. Now, did the officers and directors of Detroit Steel 
make any statement to you or proposal to you in the early part of 1944 ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. I don't understand the question, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Is it the fact that the other officers came to you and 
stated that they were desirous of retiring and would like you to run the 
company ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. It was in the fall of 1943. They came to me at that 
time. 

Mr. Burling. Will you describe what they told you ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Yes. They came to me and said that we had been 
progressing quite rapidly, and they were getting up in their years, 
and they didn't want to take the responsibility of future expansion, 
and the younger men in the organization did want to expand further. 
They said they would like — all the directors of the company and the 
chief officers — to retire and would like me to take over the presidency 
of the company. 

Mr. Burling. Did they say to you that you could arrange mergers 
or consolidations if you also saw fit? 

Mr. ZiVL\N. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Burling. Did they say they were going to sell out their invest- 
ment or hold it? 

Mr. ZiviAN. No, sir. They said they wouldn't sell any of their 
investment. They wanted to hold their investment entirely. 

Mr. Burling. Did you endeavor to arrange some merger or con- 
solidation ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. I did, 

Mr, Burling, Did you specifically commence negotiating a merger 
with Reliance Steel Corp. ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. I did. 

Mr, Burling. Where are the main offices of that corporation? 

Mr. ZiviAN. They were in Cleveland at the time. There is no Reli- 
ance Corp. now. 

Mr. Burling. Reliance was absorbed by Detroit ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. They merged. 

Mr. Burling. And the name Reliance disappeared ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Only as a division. 

Mr. Burling. Who was the president of Reliance before the merger ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Sol Freedman. 

Mr. Burling. Was it agreed initially that a merger should be ar- 
ranged whereby you would become president of the consolidated 
company ? 

Mr. ZrvTAN. When Mr. Schrage and myself and attorneys and Mr. 
Freedman got together at a meeting we arranged for the merger, and 
it was satisfactory. 

Mr, Burling. In the beginning Mr. Freedman agreed to it; is that 
right? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Yes. 



136 ORGANIIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. And is it correct that later Mr. Freedman said he 
woiikln't go along unless either he was to become president or he was 
to be bought out ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. In other words, he would vote his own stock in Reli- 
ance against the merger? 

Mr. ZiviAN. He didn't say he would do that. He said he thought 
the merger was natural, and he said — he didn't say he would vote 
against the merger but that he wanted to be president. 

Mr. Burling. You either had to agree to make him president or it 
wouldn't go through ; isn't that so ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Well, no. I made the statement that, unless it was 
unanimously approved by the stockholders, we weren't interested in a 
merger, and at that time he said, "Well, buy me out." 

Mr. Burling. I see. And did the group which had held the major 
blocks of the old Detroit Steel then undertake to buy out Mr, Freed- 



man 



Mr. ZiviAN. No; they didn't try to buy him out at all. They left 
that to me. I tried to buy him out. 

Mr. Burling. Did they agree that you should act as their agent in 
buying him out ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. I was not acting as their agent at all. I was acting as 
my own agent. 

Mr. Burling. You personally tried to buy out Mr. Freedman; is 
that right? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Yes ; and I did. 

Mr. Burling. Personally? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Yes. I made the deal, but I actually 

Mr. Burling. For whom ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. For a group of people. 

Mr. Burling. Including such as whom ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Mr. Yoder and Mr. Kelly and Mr. Ribakoff and Mr. 
Barnett 

Mr. Burling. And Mv. Dalitz ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. And — no, at that time Mr. Dalitz didn't have anything 
to do with that. 

Mr. Burling. I am trying to find out who you were acting for. 

Mr. ZiviAN. Well, I have a list of the people that we found. 

Mr. Burling. We would be very glad to receive that. 

Mr. ViESON. I would like to state that these are original figures, 
and we will be glad to furnish photostatic copies, or whatever c'opies 
you would like for the record. 

The Chairman. That will be entirely satisfactory. 

Mr. ViESON. ]\Ir. Zivian can read the names here. 

Mr. Zivian. Editli Barnett, James Atkinson, Louis Modell, Lola 
Tushbant, Bertha Ribakoff, Harry Brown, Maud Berger, Rhoda 
Zivian. 

Mr. ViESON. That is all at that time. 

Mr. Zivian. That was 20,500 shares that we agreed to buy. 

Mr. Burling. How many shares did Mr. Freedman have to be 
bought out? 

Mr. Zivian. Fifty thousand five hundred. 

Mr. Burling. And what price did he put on there ? 

Mr. Zivian. $11.50. 



ORGANIZED' CRIME IN INTERSTATE OOMMERCE 137 

Mr. Burling. Would you be good enough to tell me what that 
totals ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Well, it totals approximately $583,000. 

Mr. Burling. When we were in my office, you w^ere talking • 

Mr. ZiviAN. Yes ; I was talking about 54,000 shares, and I was multi- 
plying 54 by 111/2. But I was mistaken. I was talking from mem- 
ory at the time. Right ( 

Mr. Burling. That is correct. I agree. 

Mr. ZiviAN. I haven't looked up the papers, and when I went back 
to get the papers, we found it was 50,500. The agreement to buy came 
out of here also. 

Mr. Burling. I don't want to take it away from you, but I wonder 
if I might look at it now, please. 

So that the i)rice that had to be raised to pay Freedman for his 
stock was $580,750? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And it appears that those that originally negotiated 
toward buying that were the people that you have just read oft"? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Tliat is right. 

Mr. Burling. To save my time, will you tell me whether this agree- 
ment describes M'hicli purchaser was to acquire wdiat amount? 

Mr. ZiviAN. No; it does not. I liave other agreements for that. I 
signed that in total. In other words, there had to be a head to make 
tlie deal, and I acted as the head of it, and then distributed the other 
agreements that I have here to each one individual. 

Mr. Burling. And, as I understand it, the agreement was that the 
Reliance stock was to be put up with an escrow agent in Cleveland? 

]\Ir. ZiviAN. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. If you could raise the $580,000 within 30 days, the 
deal went through ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. I am not sure of the days. 

Mr. ViEESON. No; that is not the correct thing about the days. 
Thei-e were 

The Chairman. Just let Mr. Zivian testify, if you will. 

Mr. Zivian. I would like to refer to this, then, and tell you ex- 
actly. 

On or about February 28, I was su]:)posed to put up $101,000. And 
on or before ]\Iarch 10, 1 was supposed to put up $404,000. 

Mr. Burling. What is the total life of the escrow agreement there? 

Mr. Zivian. That is a legal term. I really don't know. I presume 
it was JNIarch 10. Am I rig-ht on that ? 

Mr. Burling. And the 

Mr. Zivian. That was five hundred 

Mr. Burling. And Freedman was, in fact, bought out ; is tliat 
right ? 

Mr. Zivian. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Would you describe tlie financing — — 

Mr. Zivian. Just a minute, if I may. That was only five hundred 
five. As you recall, there is an additional seventy-some-thousand dol- 
lars. This stock at the time was selling across tlie board. It wasn't 
listed stock. It was traded across the counter, I guess they call it, 
and, as I recall, tlie stock was selling for around seven or eight dol- 
lars a share when we first started talking about this. 



138 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. Which stock are you talking about? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Reliance was selling across the counter for about seven 
or eight dollars, if I am correct, and we felt, of course that eleven and 
a half dollars was a high price for the stock and it wasn't worth it. 
But we felt that it could be sold for $10 a share. Therefore, I agreed 
and personally put up a note for a year for 50 cents a share. I gave 
him my note for 1 year, I think it was, for 50 cents a share, and the 
directors of Reliance Steel contributed $1 a share in proportion to 
their holdings, so that made it $1.50 a share. So then the stock was 

actually could then be sold for $10, and that makes up the five 

hundred eighty-three. In other words, that was put up immediately, 
and the five hundred five had to be put up as I stated. 

Mr. Burling. How much did you put out of that $75,000 ? 

Mr. ZrviAN. Fifty cents a share, twenty-five thousand 

Mr. Burling. You put that out of your own assets ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. I put up a note for that. 

Mr. Burling. What collateral did you give on it? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Nothing. 



Mr. Burling. Will you just tell us how the remaining $525,000 

Mr. ZiviAN. Five hundred five thousand. 

Mr. Burling. How it was raised ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Yes. These people that I just called off before raised 
$205,000. 

Mr. Burling. That had nothing to do with you? 

Mr. ZiviAN. My wife bought some of that also. 

Mr. Burling. Just tell us how it was raised. 

Mr. ZiviAN. Individually, there is $205,000 raised, 20,500 shares at 
$10 per share. 

Mr. Burling. By whom ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. By the people I mentioned before. 

Mr. Burling. Including your wife ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Including my wife. 

Mr. Burling. That leaves approximately $300,000 to raise. 

Mr. Zivian. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. How was that raised ? 

Mr. Zi\t:an. That was raised by my wife again buying 100,000 
shares— 10,000 shares, or $100,000. ' 

Mr. Burling. She had already bought some ? 

Mr. Zivian. Here she bought 5,250 shares. 

Mr. Burling. $52,000 worth? 

Mr. Zivian. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. She bought an additional $100,000 worth? 

Mr. Zivian. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. How did she raise that money ? 

Mr. Zivian. How did she raise that money ? 

Mr. Zivian. Well, with what money she had and through borrowing. 

Mr. Burling. How much did she have ? What cash did she draw ? 

Mr. Zivian. She had some holdings in other companies, which we 
sold to raise the money. 

Mr. Burling. Will you tell us what they were ? 

Mr. Zivian. They were in Airway Appliance and Fintex Corp. 

Mr, Burling. That was sold out? 



ORGANIZED' CRIME IN INTERiSTATEi COMMERCE 139 

Mr. ZiviAN. That was sold out for that money, and then she bor- 
rowed money. As a matter of fact, my attorney's wife lent her 
$80,000. 

Mr. Burling. What is your attorney's name? 

Mr. ZiviAN. At that time it was Honigman. 

Mr. Burling. Mrs. Honigman lent Mrs. Zivian $80,000? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Secured by what ? 

Mr. Zivian. By nothing. 

Mr. Burling. Just a plain loan, with no security ? 

Mr. Zivian. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. All right. Now, that leaves us approximately $300,- 
000 more to raise. 

Mr. Zivian. $200,000. $205,000 here and $100,000 makes $305,000, 
which leaves $200,000 more. 

Mr. Burling. Will you tell us what happened in relation to financ- 
ing the remaining $200,000 ? 

Mr. Zivian. The remaining $200,000 we borrowed from the Indus- 
trial National Bank in New York. 

Mr. Burling. That is the Morris Plan Bank? 

Mr. ZrviAN. Yes ; the Morris Plan Industrial Bank. 

Mr. Burling. We have now come to the point in which the commit- 
tee is interested in details. Suppose you start at the beginning and 
tell us in detail how that loan came to be floated. 

Mr. Zivian. Yes. If you read this 

Mr. Burling. Will you tell us in your own words ? 

Mr. Zivian. I just want to refer back to this. AVhen I put up 
$101,000 plus $75,000, if the balance was not raised, we lost all that 
by a certain time. So, by that time we had approximately $400,000 
put up — three-hundred-eighty-some thousand. If we didn't raise the 
other $200,000 on time, we would have lost that. 

I met Mr. Dalitz on the street. 

The Chairman. What is his full name? 

Mr. Zivian. N. B. Dalitz. 

At that time he was a lieutenant in the Army, and we were just 
coming out of the attorney's office, this whole group. 

Mr. Burling. Before we get to that, will you tell us what your 
acquaintance with Mr. Dalitz had been up to that point? 

Mr. Zivian. I had known him at that time, I would say, 3, 4, or 
5 years. 

Mr. Burling. You had seen him three or four times, had you not ? 

Mr. Zivian. Yes, I had seen him maybe a few more times. 

Mr. Burling. Well, how many? 

Mr. Zivian. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. What is your best estimate? 

Mr. Zivian. I would say maybe a half dozen times or eight times. 

Mr. Burling. You first met him at a golf course ? 

Mr. Zivian. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. You never had been in his office or in his house ? 

Mr. Zivian. He did not live in Detroit at that time. 

Mr. Burling. Wherever he lived, you had not been to his house or 
office ? 

Mr. Zivian. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You did not know much about what he was doing? 

Mr. Zivian. No. 



140 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. You knew lie had an interest in lanndries here in 
Detroit ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Yes ; and in Cleveland, too. 

Mr. Burling. Laundries in Cleveland, too ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Yes, I think so. 

Mr. Burling. You knew he gambled at the race tracks ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. No ; I heard he had an interest in some race tracks. 

Mr. Burling. You never heard that he was a gambler, up to this 
point? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Up to that time I didn't know it. 

Mr. Burling. And that he ran gambling casinos or bookie joints? 

Mr. ZiviAN. No. 

Mr. Burling. He never talked to you about what his business was, 
nor you with him ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. No. I presumed he knew I was in the steel business. 

Mr. Burling. You presumed he knew, but you had no reason ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. No. 

Mr. Burling. You never told him what you were doing ? Will 
you go on ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. When I ran into him, as we came out of the attorney's 
office, I think, closing this deal 

Mr. Burling. You have not stated what attorney you are talking 
about. 

Mr. ZiviAN. Halley, Haber & McNulty ; something like that. They 
were the attorneys for the Reliance Steel Co. at the time. 

Mr. Burling. What building was it ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. I think the Union Trust Building or Union Commerce 
Building. 

Mr. Burling. You came down from the attorney's office and went 
out onto the street. 

Mr. ZiviAN. We were walking to the Statler Hotel. 

Mr. Burling. You there met Lieutenant Dalitz ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. AVill you tell us as fully and as accurately as you 
can what he said to you and what you said to him ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. I will try. 

As he bumped into me in the street, he said, "What are you doing 
in Cleveland?" 

I said, "I am just closing a deal here," and asked him what he was 
doing there. He said that he was on leave, or something, at the time. 

He said, "How are you coming on the deal ?" 

And I said, "Pretty well — we have it pretty well settled, but I am 
short $100,000." 

He said, "I think I can arrange to get it for you." 

I said, "Well, would you be willing to buy some stock in this com- 
pany?" 

He said, "Yes. Meet me at my attorney's office and we will make 
the arrangements." 

So I went back to the hotel with the four or five others at the time, 
and within an hour later, or 2 hours later, went over to his attorney's 
office. 

Mr. Burling. Did it strike you at all extraordinary that a man 
which you met perhaps a half dozen times at the golf club or othei'wise 
socially, and who did not know any details about your business as 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE: COMMERCE • 141 

far as yon know, and wlio did not ask you for a balance sheet, should 
put $100,000 in your business? 

Mr. ZiviAN. No; he asked me to come over to his attorney's office. 
At that time we most likely discussed the deal. 

Mr. Burling. I thought you said right out in the street he put 
$100,000 

Mr. ZiviAN. He didn't hand me $100,000. He said, "Come over to 
my attorney's office and we will talk about it." 

Mr. Burling. Did he say that he would put in the $100,000 in the 
course of the conversation on the sidewalk in front of the Union 
Commercial Building? 

Mr. ZiviAN. He said, "I think we can arrange it." 

Mr. Burling. You told me in my room, I believe, that he said, "I 
will put it in," did you not ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Well, I don't recall if he said that or not. I don't 
recall exactly what he actually did say at this moment. 

Mr. Burling. When you got to his attorney's office, did you go 
over the figures of Reliance in Detroit? 

]\Ir. ZiviAN. ]\Iy attorney was with me, and he called in the vice 
president of the bank. 

Mr. Bltrling. Dicf you go over the figures for Reliance ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. I think we explained the deal of what we were doing. 
I don't think we showed him any balance sheet at that time, as I 
recall. 

Mr. Burling. It does not strike you as odd that this man should 
jjut $100,000 up without even looking at the balance sheet of the 
company ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. It did not. 

Mr. Burling. Or studying the merger agreements, or anything? 

( No response. ) 

Mr. Burling. Now, did Dalitz at this time put up $100,000? 

Mr. ZiviAN. No; he called this banker — the Cleveland Industrial 
Bank or something — Morris Plan Industrial Bank of Cleveland, and 
I think the name of the attorney was Mr. Haas. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I think at this time it would be ap- 
propriate in the record to say that Mr. Haas was not available 
for service of subpena, when the committee was in Cleveland. Will 
you go ahead? 

Mr. ZiviAN. He called Mr. Small. I think his title was vice presi- 
dent — I think he is executive vice president and Mr. Haas explained 
the thing and said that we had 30,000 shares of stock to put up as 
collateral, and we wanted to borrow $200,000, of which he and Mr. 
Dalitz were to be res]wnsible for $100,000 and I would be responsible 
for $100,000, although I personally wasn't getting much benefit out 
of that $100,000. It was for other people. 

Mr. Burling. Thirty thousand shares of stock are pledged for 
$200,000? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Ten thousand was already paid for by my wife. 

Mr. Burling. Ten thousand has already been paid for by your wife, 
and you were agreeing to pay for 10 more, than Dalitz was agreeing 
to pay ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Right. 

68958— 51— pt. 9- 10 



142 ORGANiJZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE. COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. Dalitz did all of this without any examination of 
the business of either Detroit Steel or Reliance Steel or what the 
merger was to produce ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. I don't think that he did. I think maybe Mr. Haas 
had asked some questions of my attorney at that time as to just 
what we were trying to accomplish. 

Mr. Burling. Nobody studied any figures? 

Mr. ZiviAN, Not that I recall. 

Mr. ViEsoN. Would it be in order to make a statement to clarify 
the record here ? 

Mr. Burling. When we are through, counsel, you may. I would 
like to finish with the witness. 

The Chairman. Proceed. 

Mr. Burling, That loan went through, is that right ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Dalitz did not take all of the 10,000 shares himself, 
did he? 

Mr. ZiviAN. No ; he took 6,667, and Mr. Haas took 3,333. 

Mr. Burling. Subsequently were they not also distributed to Mr. 
Tucker, Mr. Kleinman, and Mr. Rothkopf ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. I think he did — I think he did distribute them. I didn't 
have anything to do with that. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I think it is appropriate at this time 
to say that this is largely the finishing of the matter which the com- 
mittee went into in Cleveland and that the identities of Dalitz, Roth- 
kopr, Kleinman, and Tucker are established in the Cleveland record, 
and we will not repeat it by going into them here. It sliould further 
be said all four men are hiding from the service of subpena of this 
committee. We made every effort to find them, and we are unable 
to do so. Now, did this group — that is, Dalitz, Kleinman, Rothkopr, 
Tucker, and Haas — either pay you or pay the Morris Plan Bank the 
$100,000 they had agreed to pay for the stock ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. I didn't know anything about the other three gentle- 
men you mentioned. Only once I had agreements with Mr. Dalitz 
and Mr. Haas. 

Mr. Burling. Was the $100,000 paid either to you or to the Morris 
Plan Bank? 

Mr. ZiviAN. It was paid to the Morris Plan Bank. I and my as- 
sociates paid $100,000 and they paid $100,000. 

Mr. Burling. You mean the Morris Plan got back $100,000? 

Mr. ZiviAN. No, $200,000. I and my associates paid a combination 
of $100,000. Out of this $100,000, " I only borrowed $20,000 and 
four other people each borrowed $20,000, and I signed the note. 

Mr. Burling. Do you have any documentary records showing the 
payment to the Morris Plan Bank ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. By myself? 

Mr. Burling, By what we will call the Dalitz group. 

Mr, ZiviAN. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Burling. The committee will be very glad to receive that, I 
believe. 

Well, supposing we go on while your attorney looks for the records, 
Mr. Zivian. 

Mr. ZiviAN. All right. 



ORGANIZED' CRIME IN INTERSTATEi COMMERCE 143 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, it is your personal recollection that the 
Dalitz group paid the "$100,000 direct to the Morris Plan Bank? 

Mr. ZiviAN. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Now, at a later date did you have occasion to lend 
any money to Mr. Dalitz ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Burling. Will you tell us the story of that? 

Mr. ZiviAN. I lent him — I have the record here — $75,000. 

Mr. Burling. How did that come to pass ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. He was in the real estate deals where he was building 
some buildings and he asked me to lend it to him, and I did. 

Mr. Burling. Did you have the cash available, or did you pledge 
him securities? 

Mr. ZiviAN. No ; he pledged security for it. I had the money avail- 
able, and I gave it to him, and he paid it back. 

Mr. Burling. Just to be accurate, you transferred the loan to your 
wife, and he paid that loan back ? 

Mr. ZI^^AN. Later on. But he first gave me back, and then he trans- 
ferred $60,000 to Mrs. Zivian, and he paid her back. 

Mr. Burling. There is presently no obligation ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. No, sir. 

■Nlr. Burling. Does the Dalitz group presently have this block of 
stock as far as you know ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. I think Mr. Haas sold his stock. 

Mr. Burling. But otherwise ? 

Mr. ZiviAN. The others, I think, still have it, as far as I know. 

Mr. Burling. Has any member of that group ever evidenced any 
interest in the management of the corporation ? 

Mr. Zivian. No, never. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever talked to Mr. Dalitz about how the steel 
company should be run ? 

Mr. Zivian. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. He has never suggested to you any way in which the 
management might advantage itself so to speak ? 

Mr. Zivian. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Have you continued to see Mr. Dalitz after 1944? 

Mr. Zivian. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Describe the relationship. 

Mr. Zi\^AN. Well, there was nothing special in the relationship. I 
have been at his home. I don't think he has ever been at my home. 
I think Mrs. Dalitz has. Wlien he comes to town once in a while, 
he calls me and I will have dinner with him. He was a very friendly 
fellow and he was a likable fellow. 

Mr. Burling. Do you remember the yacht trip ? 

Mr. ZI\^AN. Yes ; I have been on his boat. Mrs. Zivian and I took 
a trip to ISIackinaw with him on his boat. Then we came back on 
a train. 

Mr. Burling. That is, you went from Detroit to Mackinaw and 
back? 

Mr. Zivian. That is right. He stayed there and Mrs. Zivian and 
I came back on the train. 

The Chairman. Counsel, did you desire to say anything? 

Mr. ViEsoN. We have the record here that you were asking for. 

The Chairman. That concludes the interrogation. Thank you. 



144 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. ZiviAN. Do yoii want copies of this ? 

The Chairman. Thank you. 

Lest there be an inference drawn, we think it only proper to say 
that there are, as counsel has stated, other phases of the matter which 
in no sense relate to you or to this company, in which the other parties 
have been mentioned, and do figure prominently. It is the purpose of 
counsel to develop the fact that this is an instance of infiltration into 
legitimate business by gangster elements. 

Mr. ZiviAN. May I ask you a question ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. ZiviAN. In the last week or so I have been contacted by these 
fellows to buy their stock back. Would that be appropriate or would 
that be out of order ? I got into this mess and I don't want to get into 
it again. 

The Chairman. That is one thing the committee cannot advise you 
about. Thank you very much, gentlemen. 

(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF GASPER PERRONE, MOUNT CLEMENS. MICH. 

The Chairman. Next witness. 

Do you swear the testimony you will give this committee will be 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Perrone. I do. 

The Chairman. What is your full name, please? 

Mr. Perrone. Espano Gasper Perrone. 

The Chairman. Where do you live ? 

Mr. Perrone. I live at Mount Clemens territory. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived there ? 

Mr. Perrone. For about 25 years. 

The Chairman. Where did you live before that ? 

Mr. Perrone. Before that I used to live in Detroit. 

The Chairman. I see. Where were you born ? 

Mr. Perrone. I was born in Sicily. 

The Chairman. Are you naturalized? Are you a naturalized 
citizen ? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Now, will you be good enough to keep your voice up and talk loud 
enough so everybody can hear you ? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. 

The Chairman. Counsel, will you proceed? 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Perrone, you have a criminal record, I believe? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, only one time I made a mistake and made a 
little whisky. 

Mr. Burling. And you got 6 years for it ? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, they give me 6 years, but I got out in 2 years 
for good behavior. 

Mr. Burling. Was it good behavior? 

Mr. Perrone. Good behavior and parole. 

Mr. Burling. Was it good behavior or the intercession of Mr. Fry ? 

Mr. Perrone. No; good behavior. 

Mr. Burling. But you had been arrested before that? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 145 

Mr. Burling. Yon were arrested in violation of the Draft Act? 

Mr. Perrone. That was just a little mistake. 

Mr. Burling. Will you describe that little mistake? 

Mr. Perrone. There was a little argument. I wasn't a citizen of 
the United States, and I had a little argument with the board. 

Mr. Burling. Becoming an American citizen was not important 
enough to you, so you can't remember when you were naturalized? 

Mr. Perrone. I think it was 25 years ago or more. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate you came to this country as a child, and 
jou refused to serve in the armed services in the First World War ? 

Mr. Perrone. I haven't refused. I just had a little argument. 

Mr. Burling. Think back. 

Mr. Perrone. I couldn't think. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. When you came to this country, did you take this 
as your adopted country? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Burling. You can't remember the details of this little argu- 
ment you had with the draft officials? 

Mr.' Perrone. No. 

Mr. Burling. AVhat are your brothers' names ? 

Mr. Perrone. One is Santo. 

Mr. Burling. Yes? 

Mr. Perrone. Matthew. 

Mr. Burling. And Espano? 

Mr. Perrone. That is me. 

Mr. Burling. Can you remember a little arrest in January — Janu- 
ary 12, 1920. for murder? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. Well, were vou or were you not arrested on the charge 
of murder in 1920 ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. Do you mean to say under oath that you can't remem- 
ber whether you were arrested for murder? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember. 

Mr. Bi'RLiNG. Mv. Chairman, on at least one other case, the commit- 
tee has recommended to the United States attorney, the prosecution, 
for perjury when a witness says he can't remember something he 
obviouslv remembers. I request the Chair to admonish the witness to 
tell the truth. 

The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Perrone. you understand very clearly, 
and you are a man of experience. You are undoubtedly able to under- 
stand and to know what is being asked of you. In such an important 
nuitter as that, there is no question but that you can have a recollection 
of it. Xow, we expect you to answer the questions truthfully and 
directly, and not to evade by saying that you don't remember, because 
if you do say that regarding such a matter, the committee can't lend 
any credence to it at all, because it is not worthy of belief. 

Now, please answer the question. 

IVIr. Perrone. Well, I don't remember. I told you I don't remem- 
ber that I was arrested for murder, because 

Mr. Burling. It didn't happen or it is just vague in your mind? 

Mr. Perrone. I would remember if I was arrested for murder. 

Mr. Burling. Do you deny that you were arrested ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't deny it. I say I do not remember. 



146 ORGANiZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr, Burling. Will you look at this police photograph, No. 19227^ 
and see whether it is a photograph of you. 

Mr. Perrone. It looks like me. 

Mr. Burling. Well, doesn't it look 

The Chairman. We must ask the audience to refrain from audible 
laughing. 

Mr. Burling. Don't you remember whether the police took your 
photograph on October 31, 1942? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, if they got the picture, they must have taken it. 

Mr. Burling. You are not in any doubt that that is your photo- 
graph, are you? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Burling. May I ask that that photograph and the attached 
police record be marked and put into evidence ? 

The Chairman. Yes ; it will be admitted and marked as an exliibit.. 

(The document identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 13, and appears in the appendix on p. 273.) 

Mr. Burling. Can you read and write ? Can you read an English- 
language newspaper? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Can you write in English? 

Mr. Perrone. Not very much. 

Mr. Burling. After the murder arrest, were you arressted on the 
charge of armed robbery on January 8, 1931 ? 

Mr. Perrone. No, sir ; I don't remember that. 

Mr. Burling. If the police record says that, it is wrong; is that 
right? 

Mr. Perrone. What? 

Mr. Burling. If the police record has it here, it is wrong; is that 
right? 

Mr. Perrone. I must have been. 

Mr. Burling. And how about January 27, 1932, investigation of 
armed robbery? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember that either. 

Mr. Burling. Perhaps here is one that you will remember. You 
were arrested by the United States marshal or detained by him on 
December 6, 1935, on a charge of making a little whisky. 

Mr. Perrone. That's right. I admit that. 

Mr. Burling. And you remember Judge Lederle, do you not ? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And he sent you up for 6 years; is that right? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Then you have been arrested a couple of times since 
you got out of jail; is that right? 

Mr. Perrone. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Only once? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. You don't remember? 

Mr. Perrone. I have never been arrested. 

Mr. Burling. Perhaps I can refresh your recollection. 

Mr. Perrone. All right. 

Mr. Burling. There was a locker in the stove works which you, Sam, 
and your other brother — what is his name? 

Mr. Perrone. Matthew. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



147 



Mr. Burling. Matthew? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. The three of you had access to this locker, and there 
was a fire in the stove works, and there was a false bottom in one of 
the lockers, and three guns were found in there fully loaded. Does 
that refresh your recollection ? 

Mr. Perrone. I never seen a gun loaded — the FBI got a charge 
there, and I was free. I had nothing to do with it. 

Mr. Burling. The question isn't what the FBI did. We are fully 
acquainted with the FBI record on it. 

Mr. Perrone. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. The question is. Does it refresh your recollection that 
you were arrested in 1942 ? 

Mr. Perrone. They questioned me and let me go. 

Mr. Burling. Wliat were you doing with those guns in the locker ? 

Mr. Perrone. I had no guns in the locker. 

Mr. Burling. What was your brother Matthew doing with guns in 
the locker ? 

Mr. Perrone. I don't know\ I guess the FBI got a record of that 
stuff. I don't know. I couldn't explain nothing about that. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever ask Matthew why he had three guns in 
the locker ? 

Mr. Perrone 

Mr. Burling 
Perrone, 



Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 



Mr. Burling. 
Mr. Perrone. 
Mr. Burling. 
Mr. Perrone. 
Mr. Burling. 



No ; I never asked him. 
With a false bottom on it? 
No ; I never asked him. 
Burling. Weren't you curious? 
Perrone. No ; the FBI took care of everything. 
Burling. You didn't bother to ask him ? 

Perrone. He told the FBI why he had them there and so on 
and so forth. That's all I know about them. 

Mr. Burling. But you never asked him yourself why he had 
those guns in the locker ? 

Mr. Perrone. No ; I never asked him. 

Were those for goon squad work ? 
I don't know. 

What was your income last year ? 
In 1950? 

Well, let's say 1949. 
Mr. Perrone. In 1949 it must have been around $20,000. 
Mr. Burling. How much? 

Mr. Perrone. Twenty, I said. I don't remember just how much 
it was. 

Mr. Burling. Well, about. I didn't hear you. 
Mr. Perrone. It must have been around twenty, I guess. 
Mr. Burling. About $20,000? 
Yes. 

Now, how many Cadillacs do you have ? 
I ain't got no Cadillac. 
What kind of cars do you have ? 
I drive a Buick. 
How many Buicks do you have ? 
Just one. 
Mr. Burling. Any other car ? 
Mr. Perrone. The wife has a 1948 Packard. 



Perrone. 

Burling. 

Perrone. 

Burling. 

Perrone. 
Mr. Burling. 
Mr. Perrone. 



Mr 
Mr 
Mr, 
Mr 
Mr 



148 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. She has a Packard and you have a Buick ? 

Mr. Perrone. We live out in the covmtry, and she has to have a car. 

Mr. Burling. And you have a Chris Craft speedboat ; is that right? 

Mr. Perrone. Yes. I have been having boats since I have been 
married. 

Mr. Burling. When were you married ? 

Mr. Perrone. Around 1920. 

Mr. Burling. Did you do any liquor running in the boats during 
prohibition ? 

Mr. Perrone. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. How about aliens since then ? 

Mr. Perrone. No, sir. I never crossed the American side. 

Mr. Burling. You have never been in Canada ? 

Mr. Perrone. Never been in Canada. Haven't been nowhere. My 
boat is right in front of my own place. 

Mr. Burling. You never go for a ride ? It is just tied up ? 

Mr. Perrone. I just go out to the channel. It is just about 10 miles. 

Mr. Burling. How long have you been working for the Michigan 
Stove Works? 

Mr. Perrone. Over 40 years. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever seen any labor trouble around there? 

Mr. Perrone. Never seen any labor trouble — maybe a little wildcat 
strike. 

Mr. Burling. Oh, you have heard of a wildcat strike? 

Mr. Perrone. But we didn't have any trouble at all. 

Mr. Burling. You never heard of any violence around there? 

Mr. Perrone. I never heard of it. 

Mr. Burling. Just one little wildcat strike which didn't amount 
to anything ? 

Mr. Perrone. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. No workers were beaten up ? 

Mr. Perrone. I never heard of it. 

Mr. Burling. You never heard of it ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. 

Mr. Burling. You were a core maker. Are you still working as a 
core maker for the stove works ? 

Mr. Perrone. I am core manufacturer for the stove works right now. 

Mr. Burling. They took the core manufacturing operation out of 
their own works and gave it to you as a contract, is that it? 

Mr. Perrone. I have no contract. We have just a verbal agreement. 

Mr. Burling. That is between you and whom? 

Mr. Perrone. Me and the superintendent. 

Mr. BijRLiNG. Who is he ? 

Mr. Perrone. Candler. 

Mr. Burling. Not with Fry ? 

Mr. Perrone. Not with Fry. I do business with Mr. Candler. 

Mr. Burling. But the core-manufacturing operation is just the 
same as it was before you got the verbal agreemnt, is it not ? 

Mr. Perrone. No; before they used to pay piecework, you know. 
Then when I took over, they pay me so much each stove that I produce. 

Mr. Burling. For each stove produced? You do not own the 
equipment, do you ? 

Mr, Perrone. I don't own nothing. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 149 

Mr. Burling. You don't own the real estate or plant or equipment ? 

ISIr. Perrone. Nothing. 

Mr. Burling. You don't own the material that you work on, do you 'i 

Mr. Perrone. Nothing. The company furnishes everything. I 
only furnish by labor and core makers. 

Mr. Burling. In other words, what you do is to provide laborers who 
work with company equipment, inside the company plant, on com- 
pany material, and you get so much per stove ? 

Mr. Perrone. That is right. I hire my own men and pay my own 
men and work my owni men. 

Mr. Burling. The company does your bookkeeping? 

Mr. Perrone. No; I do my own bookkeeping. 

Mr. Burling. Who does that for you? 

Mr. Perrone. Marie Stock, in Mount Clemens. 

Mr. Burling. Will you spell that? 

JNIr. Perrone. Marie Stock. 

Mr. Burling. Will you spell it, please? 

Mr. Perrone. S-t-o-h, I guess, something like that. You got a note 
of her name in the book. 

Mr. Burling. You cannot spell your bookkeeper's name? 

Mr. Perrone. Marie Stock. 

Mr. Burling. Is it not a fact that the company maintains all your 
records and keeps all your books ? 

Mr. Perrone. No. I keep all my own books. 

Mr. Burling. Your income from this verbal agreement is about 
$20,000 a year? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, it depends the way the business is. Sometimes 
I make more ; sometimes I make less. It depends how much business 
they do. 

]Mr. Burling. What do you contribute to the Michigan Stove Works 
that they should pay You $20,000 a year? 

Mr. Perrone. Well, I put in hard work like any man. 

INIr. Burling. Does any otlier coremaker make $20,000 a year? 

Mr. Perrone. I am not a coremaker. I am a core manufacturer. I 
manufacture the core. 

Mr. Burling. Most manufacturers use their own factories. 

Mr. Perrone. Well, with this agreement we have that they furnish 
me everything, I furnish my brains because I been working on that 
coremaking since I was a kid and I learned the trade and I know when 
we got talking that they had to send the work out to get close to the 
foundry in the corerroom. I asked, "Why don't you let me run? I 
save you money." So they give me trial and I pro^e that I save them 
lot of money. I make money because I work 10 or 12 hours a day. 
Just see my hands [indicating]. I work with the men. See my 
hands. 

The Chairman. That will conclude your testimony. You are ex- 
cused. 

(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN A. FRY, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony 3^ou will give this com- 
mittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and notliing but the truth, 
so help you God ? 

Mr. Fry. I do. 



150 ORGAKIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Your full name, sir? 

Mr. Fry. John A. Fry. 

The Chairman. Mr. Fry, what is your business address? 

Mr. Fry. 6900 East Jefferson, Detroit, Mich., Stove Co. 

The Chairman. What position do you hold ? 

Mr. Fry. President. 

The Chairman. For what period of time have you been president 
of the company ? 

Mr. Fry. 15 years. 

The Chairman. How long have you been associated with the com- 
pany in any capacity ? 

Mr. Fry. 46 years. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. Now, counsel, will you 
proceed ? 

Mr. Burling. Would you tell us about how large, in terms of workers 
employed at the stove company, work is ? 

Mr. Fry. Numerically? 

Mr. Burling, Yes, please. 

Mr. Fry. Around 1,000. That may vary. 

Mr. Burling. What would the figure be back in the middle thirties, 
during the depression ? 

Mr, Fry. I'd have to guess at that. I'd say probably half that. 

Mr. Burling. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 500? 

Mr. Fry. Yes. 

Mr. Burling, I characterized the company earlier today, on the 
basis of what I have been told, as the largest nonautomotive plant in 
Detroit, Is that correct or not ? 

Mr. Fry. I think not. It is a good-sized plant. 

Mr. Burling. Now, will you tell us what the labor picture is today 
at your plant ? 

Mr. Fry, In what respect ? 

Mr, Burling, Wliat is the state of unionization and nonunioniza- 
tion? 

Mr, Fry. We have a union in the foundry. The rest is nonunion, 

Mr, Burling, How many workers are there in the foundry ? 

Mr, Fry. Oh, I would imagine 75 to 80. 

Mr. Burling. What union are they in ? 

Mr, Fry, They are in the iron molders union. 

Mr. Burling. Would it be fair to say that your company is the 
largest nonunion company or the least unionized of the large plants 
in Detroit? 

Mr. Fry. I don't Imow, 

Mr, Burling, You would not quarrel with me if I said it 

Mr, Fry, I couldn't because I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Burling. How long have you known the Perrone brothers ? 

Mr. Fry. Well, I can date that probably by the terms of my em- 
ployment. I think they came probably a few years after I did — the 
number of years. I couldn't give you the information Ibut I would 
assume it is upward of 40 years. 

Mr, Burling. You are aware that Sam Perrone is barely able to 
read and write? 

Mr. Fry. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And has virtually no education ? 

Mr. Fry. Yes. Perrone started working when he was a boy. 



O'RGANIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATEi COOVIMERCE 151 

Mr. Burling. Well, it is certainly no discredit and the committee is 
certainly not set up to criticize persons with no education. We wanted 
to know if you know that. Now, there were two witnesses today who 
testified that they never heard of any labor trouble at your plant. One 
of them said he never heard of any and the other said he heard of one 
wildcat strike that did not amount to anything. Will you tell us 
what the history of labor troubles since 1930 has been ? 

Mr. Fry. Well, we had a strike there. I don't know the year. I 
would say it was in the thirties, some time or other. 

Mr. Burling. Well, how many men went out ? 

Mr. Fry. Probably 25 percent. 

Mr. Burling. Did you endeavor to keep running? 

Mr. Fry. We did. 

Mr. Burling. Did any bloodshed ensue — any violence of any sort? 

Mr. Fry. I didn't see aiiy. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever hear of any ? 

Mr. Fry. No ; I didn't. 

Mr. Burling. Did anybody ever tell you that somebody was beaten 
up in connection with that strike ? 

Mr. Fry. Well, the only thing I could say, I know nothing of it. If 
there were any beatings, it was on the part of the strikers. 

Mr. Burling. Perhaps the strikers beat the people who were trying 
to go to work. I don't know. I want to know if there was any labor 
trouble and if you have been there 46 years and have been president for 
15, you surely know. 

Mr. Fry. Well, as I said, there was a strike. 

Mr. Burling. Was there any violence ? 

Mr. Fry. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Burling. You never heard of any violence in connection with 
labor disputes at your company ? 

Mr. Fry. No. 

Mr. BtTRLiNG. No one, even if he was wrong, ever told you ; is that 
right? 

Mr. Fry. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. By the way, it was the Mechanics' Educational So- 
ciety of America that was trying to organize at that time ; is that right ? 

Mr. Fry. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. That is the strike that pulled out about 25 percent 
of your men ? 

Mr. Fry. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. The rest of your men went through the picket line? 

Mr. Fry. They did. 

Mr. Burling. Is it not true that new men recruited were recruited 
by Sam Perrone to cross the picket line? 

Mr. Fry. No. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever talk to Sam Perrone about recruiting 
men to go across the picket line? 

Mr. Fry. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, is it not true that after a while this strike 
was broken and the men returned to work? 

Mr. Fry. A good many of them came back. 

Mr. Burling. The picket line was removed and you resumed the 
full operation. 

Mr. Fry. That is right. 



152 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. Is it not true pretty soon after that Sam Perrone who 
had no capital and no experience in scrap, who coukl not read nor 
write, was given your scrap haul-away contract? 

Mr. Fry. Yes, I think it was about that time. I didn't make the 
deal myself. I tliink it was about that time. 

Mr. Burling. Of course, you perceive, sir, that is an extraordinary 
coincidence as to those tAVo events, these — the breaking of the strike 
and the giving of a valuable contract to an illiterate man with a crim- 
inal record? 

Mr. Fry. I don't know whether the thing happened before or after- 
Avard, I am sure. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever have any discussion with anyone con- 
cerining using Sam Perrone in connection Avith labor problems at the 
Detroit, Mich., stove works ? 

Mr. Fry. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. What was scrap Avorth in 1934:, if you take an aver- 
age? 

Mr. Fry. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Burling. Well, are you aAvare that the scrap Avas sold to Per- 
rone at a price considerably less than the market price ? 

Mr. Fry. I think, taking into account the price of the scrap and 
the other Avork that they had with trucking and hauling and other 
things went into the cost picture and I think in consequence of that, 
AA'hy, probably the scrap price Avas less than the market. 

Mr. Burling. You mean that he Avas given sci-ap at a price less 
than market but he did other services also for the stoA^e Avorks? 

Mr. Fry. There A\'as the type of scrap you have to take into ac- 
count — small ends and cuttings that Averen't baled. 

Mr. Burling. Were you president at the time the scrap contract 
Avas given to Sam Perrone ? 

Mr. Fry. I don't knoAv Avhen the date was, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Do you remember Avhether you Avere president ? 

Mr. Fry. I think not. 

Mr. Burling. What Avas your position before you Avere president? 

Mr. Fry. Vice president. 

Mr. Burling. Did you inquire into the circumstances under Avhich 
Sam Perrone got the scrap contract at that time? 

Mr. Fry. I knew he got it. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever ask anybody why this illiterate manual 
laborer, Avith no experience in the scrap business, should be given the 
scrap contract ? 

Mr. Fry. Well, as I say, sir, it Avas the combination of tlie deal Avith 
the type of scrap Ave Avere having and the details I didn't Avork out at 
all. Our factory manager Avorked it out. 

Mr. Burling. Did it not strike you as odd that this relatively major 
contract was given to a man of this character who had a considerable 
record ? 

Mr. Fry. Not necessarily. We ]nit the details of the manufacturing 
and those things up to the subordinates AAdio handled the thiug. 

Mr. Burling. You have knoAvn Sam I^errone for years before that ? 

Mr. Fry. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Burling. You kneAv he could not read nor Avrite and did it not 
strike you as odd he got this contract ? 

Mr. Fry. I don't think so. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 153 

The Chairman. Do you know of his record ? 

Mr. Fry. What record? 

The CiiAiRisiAN. Criminal record ? 

Mr. Fry. No. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, after he got the contract, you knew he 
was sent away for 6 years, did you not ? 

Mr. Fry. Yes, I knew that. 

Mr. Burling. You did not disturb the contract, did you, as 
president ? 

Mr. Fry. No, I did not. That was again handled by the factory 
manager. 

Mr. Burling. You did not think it appropriate to look into the 
contract when the man who had the contract was sent to jail for 6 
years ? 

Mr. Fry. What was the charge? 

The Chairman. Violation of a Federal law. 

Mr. Burling. Conspiracy to violate the Internal Revenue Act and 
he was sentenced by Judge Lederle, in whose court we are now sitting. 
Well, at any rate, when the Perrones got out of jail, they were taken 
right back into the factory; is that correct? 

Mr. Fry. I believe it is. 

Mr. Burling. When Judge Lederle was considering the sentence 
to be imposed upon them, you wrote a letter designed to secure a mini- 
mum sentence; is that right? 

Mr. Fry. I appealed for them; yes. 

Mr. Burling. You also interceded on their behalf at the time their 
parole was being considered; is that right? 

Mr. Fry. I think that is right. 

Mr. Burling. Why were you so anxious to help these criminals? 

INIr. Fry. Well, I didn't help them on the basis of being criminals. 
I helped them on the basis of the fact they had been employees of ours 
for a good many years and did very excellent work. They are efficient 
workmen. 

The Chairman. I would like to ask a few questions concerning the 
listing of quite a number of illegal aliens who were employed simul- 
taneously at the plant. Are you familiar with this listing that has 
been produced here? 

Mr. Fry. 'No. 

The Chairman. I show you exhibit No. 14 and I think it will show 
that tliere were 14 illegal aliens employed at the company at one time, 
as testified to by the immigration officials here this evening. 

Mr. Fry. I don't know any of them. 

The Chairman. Was any investigation made by your company to 
ascertain the status of the employees? 

Mr. Fry. Yes, I think this is the policy: We hire both male and 
female regardless of race, creed, or color. No. 1, they have to have 
social security numbers — social security cards; and No. 2, a physical 
examination ; No. 8, they have to perform their duties efficiently up to 
the standards that we expect of them. 

The Chairman. Did either of the Perrones have any thing to do 
with the — with obtaining the service of these individuals? 

Mr. Fry. I am sure not. 

The Chairman. Have you any explanation to offer as to why so 
many would be in the one plant at the one time ? 



154 ORGANIIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Fey. I wouldn't know the details. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Fry, will you look around over there and see if 
you recognize a circuit judge of this county ? 

Mr. Fry. There is Judge Murphy. 

Mr. Burling. Do you recall that you testified before his one-man 
grand jury? 

Mr. Fry. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Now, did you testify before him to the same effect that 
you have testified here today ? 

Mr. Fry. I am sure I did, because I am telling the facts. 

Mr. Burling. You are sure you did ? 

Mr. Fry. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. I want to ask you again very carefully whether you 
ever asked the Perrones to do anything with respect to any labor 
problems ? 

Mr. Fry. I didn't. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever ask them to help recruit people who 
would cross the picket line ? 

Mr. Fry. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever have a serious strike ? 

Mr. Fry. The only one that I referred to. 

Mr. Burling. You did have a serious strike ? 

Mr. Fry. Well, if you call it serious. 

Mr. Burling. You would call it serious ? 

Mr. Fry. It was a strike. 

Mr. Burling. Was it serious ? 

Mr. Fry. Well, any strike I think is serious. 

Mr. Burling. You would call whatever strike you had, serious; 
wouldn't you ? 

Mr. Fry. Well 

Mr. Burling. Please don't fence with me. 

Mr. Fry. I am not trying to fence with you. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever tell Judge Murphy under oath that you 
had a serious strike ? 

Mr. Fry. Well, if I used the word "serious," ; yes. 

The Chairman. Apart from the fact of whether you asked Perrone 
to help, did he actually help ? 

Mr. Fry. No. 

The Chairman. In regard to any labor trouble ? 

Mr. Fry. No ; they did not. 

The Chairman. Was the contract that was given him given in 
recognition of anything he had done, other than the performance of 
the regular work at the plant ? 

Mr. Fry. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Was there given for anything outside, or any as- 
sistance he had given you in labor difficulties ? 

Mr. Fry. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Now, because of the possibility of a pre jury indict- 
ment — there are United States attorneys present — I want to be sure 
that you understand carefully what I am asking you. Did you ever 
ask the Perrones to recruit any strikebreakers ? 

Mr. Fry. No. 

Mr. Burling. You say that on your oath ? 

Mr. Fry. Yes. 



1 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATEl COMMERCE 155 

Mr. Burling. Did you tell Judge Murphy that you did do that? 

Mr. Fry. That I did do it? 

Mr. Burling. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Fry. I am sure not. 

Mr. Burling. Well, I want to read to you from the minutes. 1 
am reading page 943 of the Judge Murphy one-man grand jury. 

The Chairman. Counsel, will you give the date for the benefit of 
the w^itness? 

Mr. Burling. This testimony was taken in room 1974, National 
Bank Building, city of Detroit, Mich., Tuesday, December 17, 1946. 
It was held before the Honorable George B. Murphy, circuit court, 
sitting as a one-man grand jury, and the assistant prosecuting at- 
torney, Mr. Ralph Garber, who is doing the questioning. 

Q. Did you have a strike about that time? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Quite a serious strike? 
A. Yes. 

Q. And the Perrones were interested in that strike; weren't they? 
A. In what way? 

Q. They took an active part in breaking that strike? 

A. No, I wouldn't say that. I called on the Perrones, if this is the strike 
you are talking about, and that is the only one we have had, I think. 

Now, did you call on the Perrones in connection with that strike? 

Mr. Fry. I don't know what the wording "called on" means, but 
they had no active participation in the strikes at all. 

Mr. Burling. The question w^asn't whether they participated. The 
question was whether you talked to them about it. 

Mr. Fry. No. 

Mr. Burling. Would you testify that you didn't testify before 
Judge Murphy, as I have read to you ? 

Mr. Fry, Well, no ; I couldn't testify to that. 

Mr. Burling. The reporters were G. L. McGuire and Margaret 
Cameron. You don't deny your testimony, in other words? 

Mr. Fry. Oh, no ; I testified. 

Mr. Burling. Now, did you ask any of them if you could get help 
to come in — any people in your plant, including the Perrones? 

Mr. Fry. Well, we asked all employees if they knew of anybody that 
wanted to work in the plant. That is customary. 

Mr. Burling. I am talking about strikebreakers, 

Mr, Fry, Yes ; it would be. 

Mr. Burling. You did talk to them in the plant about that, includ- 
ing the Perrones ; isn't that right ? 

Mr, Fry, No, 

Mr. Burling. You didn't? 

Mr, Fry, No. 

Mr. Burling. All right, I will read you this, then : 

The Court. In 1934, wasn't it? 

Answer. What is that? 

The Court. 1934? 

Answer. I would say about that, this MESA drive to get us to recognize their 
outfit. They were trying to get us to recognize them. They wanted recognition, 
and it was entirely out of line in every respect — their demands were — and we 
refused, and they threw a picket line around the place, pulled most of the men 
out, and we made up our mind we weren't going to cooperate on the basis they 
wanted, and we were not going out of business, and I talked with some of the 
fellows in the plant, including the Perrones, and I wanted to know whether or 
not we could get some help to come in, and they said they thought they could. 



156 ORGAKIIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Did you give that testimony ? 

Mr. Fry. I certainly must have. 

Mr. Burling. Does that refresh your recollection that you asked the 
Perrones to include strikebreakers? 

Mr. Fry. I think probably it does. I probably asked them to take 
a few people in who wanted to go along to work with the other em- 
ployees we might have asked for. 

Mr. Burling. Was there any violence in connection with that 
strike? 

Mr. Fry. There was no violence, except the possibility of violence 
on the outside, on the part of the picket line. 

Mr. Burling. Surely you know whether there was violence in con- 
nection with this strike if you were .the first vice president. 

Mr. Fry. What kind of violence do you refer to as violence ? There 
may have been some scraps outside. 

Mr. Burling. Tell us, were there any? 

Mr. Fry. I imagine there were. 

Mr. Burling. You told Judge Murphy as follows : 

(By Mr. Garher:) 

Question. There was quite a lot of rioting and bloodshed? 

Answer. There was some fights outside the gate on the part of pickets attack- 
ing the men when they came in to lunch. I think after the first day we had 75 or 
SO policemen around the plant guarding the employees working against any 
attacks on the part of strikers. 

Is that correct? 

Mr. Fry. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. So that the witness that testified that in the past 40 
years, he had been working in your plant and he had never heard of 
labor trouble of any sort, would you say would be a plain liar ? Would 
you agree with that? 

Mr. Fry. He should know what was going on. 

Mr. Burling. Would you agree that a worker who had been work- 
ing for the past 40 years in the stove works and said he never heard 
of labor trouble in the plant is just a plain liar? 

Mr. Fry. If he was there at the time, he certainly would see it. 

Mr. Burling. He would see it if he was working right along? 

Mr. Fry. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Then there is no escaping that conclusion; is there? 

Mr. Fry. I think so. 

Mr. Burling. Both Perrones, particularly Sam Perrone, who today 
has your scrap contract, said that. According to your own conclu- 
sions, he has committed perjury before this committee; is that not so? 

Mr. Fry. If that is what you call it, then that is what it is. 

Mr. Burling. Perjury is lying under oath before a Senate com- 
mittee. 

Mr. Fry. Then, yes. 

Mr. Burling. You would be pre])ared to testify in a perjury prose- 
cution, I suppose, would you not, if you were called on by the United 
States attorney ? 

Mr. Fry. Certainly. 

Mr. Burling. You know there was a strike, which was serious and 
pulled most of your men out, and you had to have 70 or 80 policemen 
around your plant. You know that; do you not? 

Mr. Fry. I don't know how many there were. 



OiRGAN-IZE'D' CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 157 

Mr. Burling. You estimated back in 1946 when your memory was 
somewhat fresher, and this was somewhat fresher in your mind, and 
said that there were 75 or 80. 

Mr. Fry. That could have been. 

Mr. Burling. That is labor trouble; is it not? 

Mr. Fry. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Did the Perrones get a lot of Italian people to come 
in to go to work in connection with that strike ? 

Mr. Fry. There were a lot of Italian people that came in. Whether 
they got them or not, I do not know. 

Mr. Burling. That is not exactly what you said to Judge Murphy, 
is it? 

Mr. Fry. I cannot recall. 

Mr. Burling. Perhaps I can refresh your recollection. This is 
from page 945 : 

Question. And the Perrones played rather an active part in that, did they 
not, Mr. Fry? 

Answer. They got a lot of people to come in and go to work. 

Question. Would you say Italian people? 

Answer. I ima?.ine most of them were Italians. There were other kinds, not 
only Italians. 

Is that true ? 

Mr. Fry. It must be ; if I testified to that, it is true. 

Mr. Burling. Certainly you do not want to go back on your testi- 
mony which you gave His Honor. 

Mr. Fry. that^is right. 

The Chairman. Do you know what Italian people they got and 
who the people were whose services they acquired? 

Mr. Fry. No ; I wouldn't know. 

The Chairman. If you do not know, why is it then that you said 
in answer to my question before that you were certain that they did 
not get these illegal aliens ? 

Mr. Fry. I said I do not know anything about that, sir. 

The Chairman. Didn't you go further and supplement it by saying 
that you believe they did not get them ? 

Mr. Fry. Well, in other words, there was no pressure on the part of 
them to hire for us — to hire these people; that is what I actually 
meant. 

The Chairman. As far as you know, they may have acquired some 
of these in acquiring the services of the Italian people? 

Mr. Fry. Yes. 

The Chairman. I mean illegal aliens. 

Mr. Fry. I wouldn't know, sir. 

The Chairman. But, I say, they may have ? 

Mr. Fry. They may have, of course, I don't know what their • 

Mr. Burling. When did the two Perrone brothers go to jail? 

Mr. Fry. I don't know what year it was. 

Mr. Burling. Would the year 1937 sound right? 

Mr. Fry. Well, if that is what the record says, it must have been. 

Mr, Burling. I believe that is right. The police record for Gasper 
Perrone shows he was received at Leavenworth in February 1937. I 
believe he first went to Milan, Mich,, and then shortly thereafter was 
shipped to Leavenworth. 

68958 — 51 — pt. 9 11 



158 ORGAISIIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Now, after they went to jail, did the CIO come in ? 

Mr. Frt. Afterward? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. 

Mr. Fry. Well, they did come in, but I don't know — my recollection 
isn't clear on the year they came in. 

Mr. Burling. At some point a CIO union came into your factory ; 
is that right ? 

Mr. Fry. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. But you don't know it was before the Perrone 
brothers left, or while they were in jail, or after they got out? 

Mr. Fry. I don't Iniow. 

Mr. Burling. Would it refresh you recollection if I told you it was 
right after they went to jail? 

Mr. Fry. Well, I don't recall the year. 

Mr. Burling. You don't feel in the position to denj^ that, at any 
rate ? 

Mr. Fry. No ; I wouldn't deny it. I don't know the dates. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, after a while they got out of jail? 

Mr. Fry. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. That was about 1939 ; is that right ? 

Mr. Fry. Well, if that is the record; yes. I am not clear on the 
dates. 

Mr. Burling. Would you deny that, pretty soon after that, the CIO 
union disappeared ? 

Mr. Fry. I don't know date on that either. 

Mr. Burling. And the scrap business was given to Sam Perrone 
about the time of the strike ; is that right ; or a little after? 

Mr. Fry. Well, I can't remember the date. 

Mr. Burling. Well, do you remember when you were asked by 
Judge Murphy or in Judge Murphy's jDresence ? 

Mr. Fry. I would go back to the testimony I gave to Judge Murphy 
at the time because it was fresher in^y mind then. 

Mr. Burling. All right, then let's read it [reading] : 

Question. When was that scrap business given to them relative to this fight or 
this strike? 

Answer. I think about the time of the strike. 
Question. After the strike? 
Answer. I think so. 

Now, does that refresh your recollection ? 

Mr. Fry. Well, that would be it. 

Mr. Burling. Now, you were asked before Judge Murphy : 

Question. Was that given to them as a sort of reward for their service? 

Now, do you remember what answer you gave to that ? 

Mr. Fry. No ; I do not. 

Mr. Burling. What answer would you give if I asked you that now ? 

Mr. Fry. I'd say that I didn't make the award to them, so I wouldn't 
know. Now, it all depends what the answer in there is, whatever it is. 

Mr. Burling. I asked you what answer would you give now. What 
answer would you give now when I ask you the same question that 
Mr. Garber put to you ? 

Mr. Fry. I woukl say "no" now. 

Mr. Burling. Were you general manager at the time of the strike ? 

Mr. Fry. 1934? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. 



ORGAN'IZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 159 

Mr. Fry. I was vice president and general manager, I think. 

Mr. Burling. But yon wouldn't know why the scrap contract was 
given to the Perrones ? 

Mr. Fry. No. It was handled through the factory manager. 

Mr. Burling. What was his name ? 

Mr. Fry. Candler. 

Mr. Burling. Well, the answer you gave Judge Murphy, and I am 
reading from page 946, in answer to the question : 

Was that siven to them as a sort of reward for their service? 

Answer. Not necessarily. As I said before, from dealing with this thing, they 
approached us on the proposition. The deal made was a more economical 
operation to the company. 

But then, on page 947, you were asked this question : 

Ai-e they paying anywhere near the amount of the current price? 
Answer. No. 

Do you recall that ? 

Mr. Fry. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. That is right, isn't it? 

Mr. Fry. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. Mr. Fry, that certainly requires an explanation 
from you as a successful businessman. Can you offer the committee 
no other reason for the grant of a contract of such sizable proportions 
to a person of the type that Perrone has been shown to be here, and 
from which his income — he has testified it was some $00,000 a year 
made principally from your company^ in the interests of which you 
are duty bound to safeguard the interests of your stockholders, to 
allow a man of such ill repute and criminal record and shady past to 
profit on your company's operations after having aided you in labor 
trouble, as he has, and you don't think that there is any further ex- 
planation needed as an upstanding businessman who, I am sure, wants 
to maintain the reputation of a decent citizen ? 

Mr. Fry. Yes; I can explain it this way: I think if you take the 
whole package into account, trucking, the cleaning up in the yard, the 
several things that have to be performed in connection with foundry 
dirt and scrap; refuse is taken out, interplant hauling, and one thing 
or another, on the basis of what the cost is to us if we ran our own 
trucks or did our own work in that respect, the cost would be favorable 
on the basis of what the cost is to us if we ran our own trucks or did 
our own work in that respect, the cost would be favorable on the basi;; 
of wliat the contract is. 

The Chairman. I would hate to be one of your stockholders if that 
is the basis of your operation. Have you no better explanation to 
make than that ? Because, frankly, it doesn't make sense. 

Mr. Fry. Well, that is it. The figures will prove that out. 

The Chairman. Well, all right. It certainly gives rise to another 
inference, Mr. Fry, in all due respect to you, and we want to give you 
an opportunity because I don't want to leave you under a cloud or leave 
any false impression. It looks like some other motivating considera- 
tion was in operation. Now, tell us whether it was because you or 
anybody that had reason to fear the Perrones by reason of what they 
might do, or had something for which you had to pay them off, a^^r\ ^r 
was a pay-off? 



160 ORGANIZEO' CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMM3ERCE 

Mr. Fry. I am sure tliere was no fear on the part of anybody. 

The Chairman. Was it a pay-off ? 

Mr. Fry. I wouldn't call it that. 

The Chairman. Well, could you call it that? Would that be one 
possible explanation ? 

Mr.' Fry. No. I think it is all predicated on the cost. 

The Chairman. Even though, after they got the contract, you 
knew that they were getting it at a price wholly out of line with the 
market price? 

Mr. Fry. No. As I say, sir, the cost of the whole operation was 
comparable to what it would cost us if we did the work ourselves. 

The Chairman. Did you ever review it and make any report to your 
directors on it? 

Mr. Fry. We reviewed it from time to time, not recently. 

The Chairman. Did you ever vary it or modify it in accordance 
with fluctuating market conditions? 

Mr. Fry. I don't know whether it has been modified or not. I 
couldn't tell you the terms of the contract, sir. 

The Chairman. As far as you know, it just went along, and they 
were profiting and have continued to profit, these illiterate people 
with criminal records, and they have been allowed to profit at your 
expense to that extent? 

Mr. Fry. Well, I don't think it has been profiting at our expense. 

The Chairman. Well, if you could have gotten a better price, you 
would have saved that much for your stockholders and for your busi- 
ness, would you not ? 

Mr. Fry. Yes, but we would have had additional costs with the 
other parts of the operation. 

The Chairman. And you may have had some more labor trouble 
that they could have protected you from. 

Mr. Burling. Is it the fact that about the same time you gave Sam 
the scrap contract you made a contractual arrangement whereby, in- 
stead of operating your core-making plant, Gasper Perrone was to 
contract to make cores in your plant with your equipment, using your 
materials, at so much per stove, and he was to pay his own labor ? 

Mr. Fry. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. And that wasn't a pay-off either, I suppose? 

Mr. Fry. I think no. I think we can prove that the thing, as a cost 
operation, is beneficial to the company. 

Mr. Burling. Now, do you know Mr. Dean Robinson ? 

Mr. Fry. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Wliat is his position ? 

Mr. Fry. Dean is president of the Briggs Manufacturing Co. 

Mr. Burling. He is a good friend of yours, isn't he ? 

Mr. Fry. Yes ; for a long time. 

Mr. Burling. You have known him for many, many years ? 

Mr. Fry. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever discuss with him your labor troubles? 

Mr. Fry. No. Maybe informally at some time or other, but we 
never had any discussion. 

Mr. BiRiJ":;;. Did he ever discuss with you his labor troubles? 

Mr. Fry. No. 

Mr. Burling. You never suggested to him, did you, that the pattern 
of dealing with members of the Perrone family had solved your prob- 



ORGANIZED' CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 161 

lems and that he would do well to take on another member of the 
family ? 

Mr, Fry. Certainly not. 

Mr. Burling. You never said anything like that ? 

Mr. Fry. No. 

Mr. Burling. That is all. 

The Chairman. All right. Thank you, Mr. Fry. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Carl Renda. 

TESTIMONY OF CARL RENDA, DETROIT, MICH., ACCOMPANIED BY 
SAMUEL L. TRAVIS, ATTORNEY, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you will give this com- 
mittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God ? 

Mr. Travis. Mr. Chairman, I would like, at the outset, if I may — 
I have a short statement I would like to make to the committee on be- 
half of Mr. Renda. 

The Chairman. It is customary to have the interrogation proceed 
to a point where, if there is any particular matter that you desire to 
advise on, it is perfectly all right. 

Mr. Travis. It won't be necessary for me to advise Mr. Renda. He 
hasn't done anything wrong. But I have a little preliminary state- 
ment. It is very short. I would appreciate being able to read it into 
the record on behalf of Mr. Renda. 

The Chairman. To what does it have reference; as to the reason 
for his appearance or anything? 

Mr. Travis. Yes ; in that connection generally. I have a copy here, 
if you wish to read it. 

The Chairman. Mr. Travis, this is perfectly in order. As a mat- 
ter of fact, it is in accordance with the statement made by the com- 
mittee to the effect that the appearance of the witness is not to be 
considered as casting any reflection upon him. 

Mr. Travis. I understand that. May I read it? 

The Chairman. All right, go ahead. 

Mr. Travis. I wish to state at the outset that we have every desire 
to cooperate in this inquiry to the fullest extent possible. Unfortu- 
nately, however, there is a tendency in the public mind to associate 
the issuance of a subpena by this committee with guilt or wrong- 
doing of some sort, regardless of actual facts. My client knows, I 
know, and I believe this committee must know, Mr. Renda has never 
been charged with an offense at any time, by either the government 
of the city of Detroit, State of Michigan, or the United States, and is 
free of any guilt in connection with this investigation or any other. 
His personal record, both in college and in business is perfectly clean 
and honorable in every respect. He is prepared to answer fully all 
questions put to him, as would any other law-abiding citizen. 

Now, in fairness to his family, business associates and himself, I 
ask that the committee, at the conclusion of this testimony, either make 
an accusation or inform the public that there is no accusation against 
him, in order that any stigma that may attach from testimony here 
may be removed. 



162 ORGAN'IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

I appreciate, Mr. Chairman, the remarks you made before. They 
were very fair. But nevertheless, in spite of what the chairman says, 
people believe unjustifiably, I believe, that anybody who is here must 
have done something wrong, and I think that, Mr. Renda, who has an 
outstanding character and a fine business is entitled to either an ac- 
cusation or a statement that he is free of any guilt. 

The Chairman. All right, then, Mr. Travis. What is your full 
name? 

Mr. Renda. Carl Renda. 

The Chairman. Mr. Renda, what is your address ? 

Mr. Renda. 587 Lochmoor Boulevard. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived in the city ? 

Mr. Renda. How long have I lived in the city ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Renda. About close to 10 years. 

The Chairman. And prior to that, where did you live? 

Mr. Renda. Albion, Mich. 

The Chairman. Were you born in this State ? 

Mr. Renda. I was born in Detroit. 

The Chairman. Very good. All right. Will you proceed? 

Mr. Burling. Will you state your age ? 

Mr. Renda. Thirty-three. 

Mr. Burling. So that in 1945 you were 28. is that right? 

Mr. Renda. Twenty-seven or twenty-eight. 

Mr. Burling. When is your birthday ? 

Mr. Renda. November 12. 

Mr. Burling. That makes you how old on April 7, 1945 ? 

Mr. Renda. Twenty-eight. 

Mr. Burling. When did you graduate from Albion College? 

Mr. Renda. 1941. 

Mr. Burling. You are Mr. Sam Perrone's son-in-law? 

Mr. Renda. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling. How long have you been married ? 

Mr. Renda. Seven years. 

Mr. Burling. So, in 1945 you had been married 2 years? 

Mr. Renda. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling. Now, will you start from the time you left Albion 
College, and tell us about your career? By the way, did you take 
an engineer's course at Albion? 

Mr. Renda. Business administration. 

Mr. Burling. I see. Tell us what you did after you got out of 
college ? 

Mr. Renda. When I got out of college, I was employed by National 
Twist Drill & Tool. 

Mr. Burling. Doing what. 

Mr. Renda. I was doing precision work there on cutters. 

Mr. Burling. You were a cutter ? 

Mr. Renda. No. I was doing precision work. I was working on 
the lathe making cutters. 

Mr. Burling. Did you continue to do that until about 1945 ? 

Mr. Renda. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. In 1945, what was your salary or wage ? 

Mr. Renda. Oh, I was making close to $100 a week. 



OiRGAISriZE'D' CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 163 

Mr. Burling. Close to a hundred a week ? 

Mr. Renda. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Had you saved up any money ? 

Mr. Renda. I saved up some ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. About how much? 

Mr. Renda. I haven't the slightest idea. 

Mr. Burling. Certainly not more than $5,000. 

Mr. Renda. In that vicinity. 

Mr. Burling. What? 

Mr. Renda. I would say in that vicinity ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. I see. Now, is it the fact that you expected to be 
called up into the Army along about 1945 and then found — this is 
no reflection upon you — that you were found IV-F. I was myself. 
I want merely to know whether when you found you were called 
up you were rejected. 

Mr. Renda. Yes; I was rejected. 

Mr. Burling. And is it the fact that you then decided to go into 
business ? 

Mr. Renda. It wasn't that; no. 

Mr. Burling. I see. At any rate, about that time you decided to 
go into business ? 

Mr. Renda. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. You just thought it would be nice to have the Briggs 
Body Co. scrap contract ; is that right ? 

Mr. Renda. Any account that I could get. 

Mr. Burling. Well, you particularly thought of the scrap con- 
tract? 

Mr. Renda. It so happened that that is the one I struck. 

Mr. BuRiJNG. You went over to Briggs and said, "Can I have your 
scrap account" ; is that right ? 

Mr. Renda. Not in those words ; no. 

Mr. Burling. Yes? 

Mr. Renda. I solicited them for the account. 

Mr. Burling. Who did you solicit? 

Mr. Renda. The purchasing agent. He is now deceased. His name 
was Cleary. 

Mr. Burling. I am sure he is now deceased. So is Mr. Herbert and 
so is Mr. Brown; is that right? 

Mr. Renda. Well, I know Mr. Herbert, but I don't know about Mr. 
Brown. I never met him. 

Mr. Burling. You never knew the then president, that he is dead ? 

Mr. Renda. No ; I didn't. 

Mr. Burling. What did Mr. Cleary say to you, and what did you 
say to him ? 

Mr. Renda. I solicited from him the business. I wanted to be put 
on the bidding list. I prevailed upon him to be given that oppor- 
tunity. I saw him a few times and in time I was put on this list, and 
I was able to bid in there. 

Mr. Burling. And you put in a lower bid than the existing bids; 
isn't that right? 

Mr. Renda. That I don't know. The bids were not exposed to me. 

Mr. Burling. Was it not? Didn't anybody tell you that for the 
past 18 or 20 years before you solicited Briggs for the scrap contract, 



164 orgajS'ized crime in interstate commerce 

that there had been two main metal-scrap haul-away contractors, who 
had had the business regularly ? 

Mr. Eenda. They weren't born with that. They got it the same 
way I got it. 

Mr. Burling. I didn't ask you that. Did anybody tell you that 
Briggs, for a period of 18 or 20 years, had dealings with two principal 
metal-scrap haul-away people? 

Mr. Eenda. No one told me that. 

Mr. Burling. Wlien did you learn that for the first time, Mr. 
Eenda ? 

Mr. Eenda. That I don't know. I don't remember that. That 
was one of the reasons why I was able to get the account, I might 
mention. 

Mr. Burling. You mean they had been doing a satisfactory busi- 
ness with a big haul-away concern for 18 or 20 years, so they wanted to 
take a 28-year-old boy with $5,000 capital in ? 

Mr. Eenda. Not necessarily that, no. It had been known that 
there is collusion among these dealers around the city. They thought 
they could overcome it with my help in there. 

Mr. Burling. Who told you that ? 

Mr. Eenda. I worked it out with Mr. Cleary. 

Mr. Burling. Who said anything about collusion among bidders? 

Mr. Eenda. How can it be possible that 

Mr. Burling. I wonder if you would answer the question. Who 
told you that? 

Mr. Eenda. Who told me ? 

Mr. Burling. That there was collusion. 

Mr. Eenda. It was rumored throughout the city. 

Mr. Burling. Did Mr. Cleary say anything to you ? 

Mr. Eenda. He felt that, yes. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever hear the adage that it is a good idea 
always to blame something on a dead man ? 

Mr. Eenda. That is not the case in this particular case. 

Mr. Burling. Have you and Mr. Eobinson agreed among your- 
selves to blame this on the dead man, Cleary ? 

Mr. Eenda. No. 

Mr. Burling. You deny that ? 

Mr. Eenda. I absolutely do. 

Mr. Travis. I don't think there is any testimony in the record to 
that effect. 

The Chairman. Just a minute. We welcome participation, but 
we don't want any comments on the testimony. Any question which 
you think is improper you may object to. 

Mr. Burling. Now, did Cleary say anything to you, and if so, 
exactly what did he say about collusion among bidders ? 

Mr. Eenda. He felt there was something that was going on but 
he couldn't put his finger on it. 

Mr. Burling. Did you talk to anybody else at Briggs about that? 

Mr. Eenda. No ; I didn't. 

Mr. Burling. You never spoke to Mr. Eobinson about it? 

Mr. Eenda. No. 

Mr. Burling. Or Mr. Herbert about it ? 

Mr. Eenda. No. 

Mr. Burling. Or Mr. Lilly gren about it ? 



ORGANIZE'D' CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 165 

Mr. Kenda. I didn't know Mr. Lillygren. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, had you ever had any experience of any 
kind whatsoever in the scrap metal business ? 

Mr. Kenda. I didn't 

Mr. Burling. At that time could you have told us the difference be- 
tween ferrous and nonf errous scrap 'i 

Mr. Kenda. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Could you have classified scrap according to the 
price schedules? 

Mr. Renda. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. How did you learn that? 

Mr. Renda. Through the Iron Age and various other publications 
and through the help of other individuals. 

Mr. Burling. You read all that to begin with ? 

Mr. Renda. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. But you had no practical experience of any sort? 

Mr. Renda. I did not. 

Mr. Burling. Is it not the fact that at a plant like Briggs the 
scrap is taken by the manufacturers from the machines and placed 
in bins, where the haulaway contractor picks it up ? 

Mr. Renda. No. 

Mr. Burling, That is not the fact ? 

Mr. Renda. No. 

Mr. Burling. Well, what is the fact? 

Mr. Renda. It is put in what is known as A boxes, B boxes, or C 
boxes and are taken to the dock and then dumped into your truck. 

Mr. Burling. Now, does the manufacturer do the dumping or the 
haulaway contractor ? 

Mr. Renda. The haulaway contractor. 

Mr. Burling. He has the equipment to do that ? 

Mr. Renda. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Sometimes loading machines and sometimes mag- 
netic cranes placed on caterpillar treads ? 

Mr. Renda. They only have that in one of the plants. 

Mr. Burling. Briggs had it? 

Mr. Renda. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. All right, you didn't have any of that equipment? 

Mr. Renda. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling. And at that time you didn't have any trucks, did 
you? 

Mr. Renda. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling. Now, when you get the scrap loaded in your truck the 
haul-away contractor customarily takes it to his yard and classifies it; 
is that correct? 

Mr. Renda. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. There are a good many kinds of scrap that have to be 
further processed — either baled or sheared; is that correct? 

Mr. Renda. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. And any large-scale scrap operation requires a rail- 
road siding, so that the scrap may be loaded ? 

Mr. Renda. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Did you have a railroad siding? 

Mr. Renda. No. I had made a deal with someone else that if I was 
able to get any accounts that I would do business with him. 



166 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. What is his name? 

Mr. Renda. Kramer Orloff. 

Mr. Burling. What is his name? 

Mr. Renda. The name of the company is Kramer Orloif. 

Mr. Burling. What is their address? 

Mr. Renda. It is on Buffalo Street. I don't remember the exact ■ 

Mr. Burling. Have you got any written evidence that you had such 
a deal? 

Mr. Renda. No. 

Mr. Burling. Who did you talk to at Kramer Orloff? 

Mr, Renda. I talked to both Dick and to Ben. 

Mr. Burling. Now, is it correct that you got a contract to remove 
the metal scrap and, in fact, all scrap from Briggs? 

Mr. Renda. I was awarded the business for a 3-month period on a 
trial basis. 

Mr. Burling. That bid was over the bid of the people that had the 
bid before. I mean, you offered to pay less ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Renda. That I don't know, but I put in my bid and I was 
awarded the material. 

Mr. Burling. Did you have any discussion ahout labor matters at 
that time? 

Mr. Renda. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Burling. Did you talk to your father-in-law about this busi- 
ness at the time you were seeking it ; that is, you were seeking the 
Briggs contract? 

Mr. Renda. The only thing I did is I told him I was looking for 
some bid — I'd like to get in the scrap business. 

Mr. Burling. Was it not his idea, in the first place? 

Mr. Renda. No. 

Mr. Burling. He did not suggest it to you ? 

Mr. Renda. No. 

Mr. Burling. He did not tell you you could be in the same position 
at Briggs as he was at the stove works ? 

Mr. Renda, Absolutely not. 

Mr. Burling. You were making about a dollar or $1.65 an hour in 
the first few months of April 1945, is that right ? 

Mr. Renda. I believe that is correct, I am not sure. 

Mr. Burling. Your income jumped in 194() to $53,000? 

Mr. Renda. That is possible, something like that. 

Mr. Burling. It is $101,000 in 1947, is that right? 

Mr. Renda. Just about; yes. 

Mr. Burling. You have lent your brother-in-law, Mr. Orlando^ 
$35,000 to put into the Hazel Park race track ? 

Mr. Renda. No. 

Mr. Burling. How much did you lend? 

Mr. Renda. $15,000. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know where he got tlie other $20,000 ? 

Mr. Renda. I know he had some of his own, and I know he bor- 
rowed. 

Mr. Burling. Your father testified he put up 50, and also there 
was put up 85. We are 20,000 short. Has anybody told you where he 
got the 

Mr. Renda. To my knowledge, he originally bought $75,000 in 
stock. I believe they had a stock dividend and he also bought addi- 
tional stock with the cash dividend that he received. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE^ COMMERCE 167 

Mr. Burling. Now, as a matter of fact, after you got the haulaway 
contract, the okl people that had been hauling out the scrap kept right 
on hauling out the scrap just the same way they always did, is that not 
right ? 

Mr. Renda. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. At that time you got the contract, you did not have 
an office ? 

Mr. Renda. That is right. You couldn't find office space. 

Mr. Burling. You did not have one ? 

Mr. Renda. I believe you should know the facts. 

Mr. Burling. I do know the facts. 

Mr. Renda. I am giving them to you 

Mr. Burling. You did not have a telephone? 

Mr. Renda. You could not get telephones. 

Mr. Burling. Whether you could or not, you did not have one, and 
please do not fence with me. 

Mr. Renda. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling You had $5,000 capital and no experience in the scrap 
business. It seems odd to me, with no equipment and no loading 
equipment, and no trucks, and no yard and no siding, doesn't it seem 
odd to you that you were given this contract as against the man who 
had it for 18 or 20 years? 

Mr. Renda. I don't think so. I was very happy about it. 

Mr. Burling. I have no doubt you were happy. I'd be happy to 
have $100,000 myself. 

Mr. Renda. I do not make $100,000 every year. I had one year 
such as that. That was my top year. 

Mr. Burling. I think in fairness to you that should be stated as 
correct. Now, in 1946 you changed the business from your own to a 
partnership with your wife, is that right ? 

Mr. Renda. I believe so. 

Mr. Burling. In that year the partnership income was $53,000, is 
that right? 

Mr. Renda. I believe so. 

Mr. Burling. The size of your operation can be measured by the 
fact that your social-security tax is $26.09, is that right? 

Mr. Renda, That I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. You would not say it was any larger, would you? 

Mr. Renda. I do not know. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, the record shows, and that would 
show the size of the salary, of course. 

The Chairman. Witness, do you take issue with it at all? 

Mr. Renda. I don't know what he is driving at. 

The Chairman. Well, it is very obvious, and the fact your social- 
security tax was only twenty-odd dollars would of, course, have some 
significance, but now the question is, is it a fact that that was the 
extent of the amount of the social-security tax you paid ? 

Mr. Renda. May I ask a question? Wliat has this social-security 
tax got to do with this ? I don't get the connection. 

The Chairman. That is for the committee to decide. 

Mr. Renda. I want to know what it pertains to. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Renda, we are trying to find out whether you 
had an operation of any size where you had employees. 

Mr. Renda. I did. 



168 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. In 1946, although the partnershiji net income was 
$53,000, you had substantially no employees, and your total social- 
security tax is $26. 

Mr. Eenda. That must be correct then. I didn't know what the 
amount was. 

Mr. Burling. I want to make a statement then, and ask you if 
it is true or false, because in the interest of expediting this, and so 
we can all go home to bed — is it not true that after you got the con- 
tract, the old bidders that had this for 18 years or 20 years left 
their equipment there, they picked up the scrap with their loaders 
and their mechanical trains and they put the scrap on their trucks 
and they drove their trucks to the yards and processed them and put 
them on railroad cars for shipping, and you did not touch the scrap 
at all, is that correct ? 

Mr. Renda. Can I elaborate on that ? 

The Chairman. First of all, is that correct ? 

Mr. Renda. That is correct. 

The Chairman. You may make any elaboration you desire. 

Mr. Renda. The reason for that was I was boycotted by all dealers, 
including the outfit that I made a deal with, that he would take care 
of my scrap account, and the only way that I was able to take care of 
that account is doing business with these people. Now, originally 
my metals were handled by someone else. He was forced to practically 
give them up. I had to go back more or less to stay in business with 
these other fellows. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, the fact is that the physical handling of 
the scrap did not change one bit when you came in with your contract. 
The only difference was that the scrap haul-away people paid you in- 
stead of paying Briggs. 

Mr. Renda. They bought the scrap from me, that is correct. 

Mr. Burling. You didn't touch it and you never had. 

Mr. Renda. I looked at it and took all my time for it. 

Mr. Burling. You went out each day and looked in the bins ? 

Mr. Renda. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. What for? 

Mr. Renda. To check what was going out. 

Mr. Burling. But you didn't touch it. You never had physical 
possession of the sprap at any time? 

Mr. Renda. No. 

Mr. Burling. That is true today, is it not ? 

Mr. Renda. No. I wouldn't say that is true today. There is a lot 
of scrap that I handled personally today. 

Mr. Burling. How long have you been handling scrap personally ? 

Mr. Renda. Quite some time, for the past couple of years. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, up until 2 years ago, you didn't touch 
the scrap. Instead, the scrap was handled exactly as it always had 
been ? 

Mr, Renda. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling. You were not selling the scrap to these old fellows 
for a price lower than the price you were paying Briggs, were you ? 

Mr. Renda. Would you please repeat that? 

Mr. Burling. Well, if you bought $1 worth of scrap from Briggs, 
you were not selling it to them for 90 cents. 



O'RGANTZE'D' CRIME IN INTERSTATE* COMMERCE 169 

Mr. Renda. No . I would make a little profit on it. The records will 
bear that out. 

Mr. Burling. That is my point, $53,000 in 1946. 
Mr. Renda. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Yet, you did not in any way interfere with the opera- 
tions or change it, or do anything. 
Mr. Renda. I acted as a broker. 

Mr. Burling. Why should Briggs want to have you act as a broker 
when they had been doing business directly with these people for 18 
years ? 

Mr. Renda. They knew that I was taking care to see they were 
getting, a square deal. 
Mr. Burling. How? 

Mr. Renda. Making sure that what went on the truck was what 
was specified. Seeing that the accounts were well taken care of. 

Mr. Burling. You looked at the truck — in other words, you were 
paid $53,000 for inspecting the trucks. You were weighing them 
and making sure that the kind of scrap put in the trucks was the 
kind of scrap charged. That is an awful expensive inspector, Mr.. 
Renda. Now, by the way, you did not, in 1946, in any way interfere 
with the business, that is, the scrap was sold by the fellows that took 
it out ; is that right ? 

Mr. Renda. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling. And you had deducted an entertainment, travel and 
entertainment item of $10,535 that year. I wonder if you would care 
to explain that. 

Mr. Renda. I think that can be explained. 
Mr. Burling. Would you ? 

Mr. Renda. First of all, I did some traveling around the country, 
looking for other dealers. Second of all, that was the way I educated 
myself, finding better markets for the future, taking care of people 
with dinners or drinks, or whatever the case may be. I can't come 
right out and tell you in detail exactly what each was for, but I assure 
you it was for the betterment of the business. 

Mr. Burling. There is one check in your books for 1 year payable — 
some $420 payable to the Michigan State Racing Association. 
Mr. Renda. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Did you expect to sell scrap to the Michigan State 
Racing Association? 

Mr. Renda. I had a box there. 

Mr. Burling. You tliought maintaining a box at the track was a 
proper expenditure for a scrap metal company. 

Mr. Renda. That's right. It is done by other dealers. 
Mr. Burling. All right; your social-security tax went up a little 
in 1947 and got to $68.85. In 1948 it went up to $85. That year your 
entertainment deduction was $10,068. 

JNIr. Renda. May I correct you on one point, that is traveling and 
entertainment. 

Mr. Burling. You spent almost 100 times as much on travel and 
entertainment as you did on social security. 

Mr. Renda. I didn't have that many employees to pay social security. 
Mr. Burling. Because you were not doing anything and were taking 
a free ride on Briggs. 



170 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Renda. I wasn't taking a free ride anywhere. From watch- 
ing the business and taking care of it and spending so much time on it, 
1 wound up at Mayo Clinic on the verge of a nervous breakdown. 

Mr. Burling. By the way, have any of your relatives been mur- 
dered ? 

Mr. Renda. Any relatives of mine murdered ? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. 

Mr. Renda. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Burling. Perhaps our records are wrong. If you were so busy 
engaged in traveling, how could you inspect the scrap to see that 
each truck was weighed right ? 

Mr. Renda. You can always take a plane and come back the same 
day, or spend the day away, or a weekend away, for that matter. 

Mr. Burling. You were able to act as inspector ? 

Mr. Renda. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Is it correct that the market for scrap is extremely 
delicate and fluctuates widely and very rapidly ? 

Mr. Renda. At that time there was no such thing as a fluctuating 
market. There was a price ceiling on it. 

Mr. Bltrljng. In 1947, the ceiling was still on? 

Mr. Renda. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. All right. After the ceiling was taken off, custom- 
iirily it is a very tricky market. 

Mr. Renda. Not in this case because it was allocated to Great Lakes 
at a specified price. 

Mr. Burling. Now, you were the president of the American Italian 
delegates in 1949 ? 

Mr. Renda. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Sparky Corrado was the chairman of the dance com- 
mittee? 

Mr. Renda. I think so. 

Mr. Burling. What relation is he to Pete Corrado ? 

Mr. Renda. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever hear of Pete Corrado ? 

Mr. Renda. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. You do not know of any relationship ? 

Mr. Renda. I do not. 

Mr. Bl^rling. What about Tony Zerilli? Is he anv relation to Joe 
Zerilli? 

Mr. Renda. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. What about Jack Tocco? What relation is he to 
Black Bill Tocco? 

Mr. Renda. I believe he is a son. 

Mr. BuRUNG. Of whom? 

Mr. Renda. Of Bill. 

Mr. Burling. Then we have Pete Corrado. Is he the original 
Pete Corrado, or a son ? 

Mr. RenDx\. No ; there is a Pete Corrado there. 

Mr. Burling. There is a Pete Corrado who has a long-time criminal 
record, who is a fugitive, and who is known as the "Enforcer." 
Mr. Renda. That is not the one. 

Mr. BuitLiNG. What relation is he to this Pete Corrado ? 

Mr. Renda. I think they are cousins. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE; COMMERCE 171 

Mr. Burling. Is Mike Polizzi any relation to Big Al ? 

Mr. Eenda. Not that I know. 

Mr. Burling. Who are Tony and Bill Giacolone? 

Mr. Eenda. That I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. They were on the dance committee. You were presi- 
dent and you don't know who they were ? 

Mr. Renda. I don't. They volunteered for the job. 

Mr. Burling. Then there is Guiseppe Louiselle. 

Mr. Renda. I don't know him. 

Mr. Burling. Then there is Matt Bommarito. 

Mr. Renda. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. They have ads in here. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know what Zerilli & Co. is represented by ? 

Mr. Renda. No, I don't. 

Mr. Burling. Who is Bommarito? What does that name mean to 
you? 

Mr. Renda. I know a lot of Bommaritos ; they are just like Smith. 

Mr. BuKLiNG. Vince Meli, is your brother-in-law. 

Mr. Renda. I have a Vince JNIeli, who is my brother-in-law. 

Mr. Burling. Son of Angelo Meli ? 

Mr. Renda. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. What does Angelo do for a living? 

Mr. Renda. As far as I know, he is a farmer. 

Mr. Burling. Who is Joe Moceri ? 

Mr. Renda. I do not know. 

Mr. Burling. Perhaps I mispronounced it; perhaps it should be 
Mocheri or Mosheri. 

Mr. Renda. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. They all have ads here. Do you know the Jay-Cee 
Music Co. ? 

Mr. Renda. No. 

Mr. Burling. They have an ad in here. Angelo Meli, you said 
was a farmer. Then we have a full-page ad of yours. And then 
we have a full-page ad of Joe Zerilli. What does he do for a living? 

Mr. Renda. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. Don't you know he is a numbers operator ? 

Mr. Renda. No, I don't. 

Mr. Burling. Then we have Bommarito and Pete Corrado, and 
then we have Perrone's Service. 

Mr. Renda. Can I make a statement in regard to that and you 
bringing up this ad book? The fellows in the club all went out and 
solicited it. Those same people donate to the United Foundation and 
Red Cross and to many things. I don't know what implications can 
be taken by that, but that doesn't mean a thing. Any funds collected 
were distributed in a charitable way. 

The Chairman. All right. Thank you. You are excused. 
(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Travis. May I make a statement with respect to Mr. Renda? 

The Chairman. We are not going to suspend in the middle of opera- 
tions to get a statement. We will take it under consideration. The 
next witness will be Louis Freedman. 



172 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

TESTIMONY OP LOUIS EREEDMAN, DETROIT, MICH., ACCOMPANIED 
BY JOHN W. BABCOCK, ATTORNEY, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you will give this 
committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Freedman. I do. 

The Chairman. What is your name ? 

Mr. Freedman. Louis Freedman. 

The Chairman, And your address? 

Mr. Freedman. 18272 Fairfield. 

The Chairman. What is the name of your attorney? 

Mr. Babcock. John W. Babcock. 

The Chairman. Where are your offices? 

Mr. Babcock. 2280 Penobscot Building, Detroit. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Freedman, do you do business under a firm name? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. What is that ? 

Mr. Freeman. The Woodmere Scrap Iron & Metal Co. 

Mr. Burling. How long have you been engaged in the scrap-metal 
business ? 

Mr. Freedman. Over 40 years. 

Mr, Burling. Doing business as Woodmere? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever hauled ferrous scrap metal out of 
Briggs ? 

Mr, Freedman, Yes. We have hauled ferrous and nonferrous. 

Mr. Burling. Now, the Briggs Manufacturing Co. is the largest 
independent body manufacturer in the country; is that right? 

Mr. Freedman. I would say they are one of them. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, it is a very large plant here in Detroit? 

Mt. Freedman. Yes, sir. 
■ Mr. Burling. And is it the fact that a body company produces an 
ex(!?feptionally large amount of scrap in relation to its volume? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. And does Briggs produce an exceptionally large 
amount of scrap ? 

' Mri Freedman. They do. 

Mr. Burling. Now, except for the time when Briggs was engaged 
during the war in airplane manufacturing, when they had aluminum 
scrap, is that principal scrap ferrous ? 

Mr. Freedman, ^es, 

Mr. Burling. Since the war, would you care to state what the ap- 
proximate volume of their ferrous scrap produced annually is ? 

Mr. Freedman. I'd say well over a million dollars a year. 

Mr. Burling. Well over a million dollars a year ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes. 

Mr. Burling, So that the contractor that has the scrap contract 
with Bi'iggs has a good-sized contract? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Burling. When did you first commence hauling ferrous scrap 
out of Briggs ? 

Mr, Freedman, Oh, I'd say about 25 years ago. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 173 

Mr. Burling. 25 years ago ? 
Mr. Freedman, About that. 

Mr. Burling. Without reference to who had the contract, have you 
substantially, without interruption, continued to haul ferrous scrap 
and sometimes nonferrous scrap out of Briggs? For the past 25 
years ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. And are j^our trucks doing that now ? I don't mean 
tonight, but will they tomorrow morning? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Now, address yourself to a time prior to April 7, 
1945. Will you describe the way in which Briggs handled the letting 
of the ferrous-scrap contract or bids ? 

Mr. Freedman. Well, it was customary to send out invitations to bid, 
and then award it principally for 90-day or 6-month intervals. 

Mr. Burling. How do you explain the fact that you had it virtually 
without interruption for nearly 20 years ? 

Mr. Freedman. Well, I would say, from a point of servicing a firm 
well an'd becoming familiar with the processing of material into certain 
grades, all indications were that they favored us for the service as well 
as paying the highest price for the material. 

Mr. Burling. You had the equipment in there ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Your men know the lay-out of the plants and were 
accustomed to picking the scrap up from the various bins? 

Mr. Freedman. That's right ; bins or loading docks, or stock boxes, 
whatever the custom there was. 

Mr. Burling. And, so, would it be fair to say that, although Briggs 
in a formal sense took bids, it was more or less understood that your 
bids would be accepted ? 

Mr. Freedman. Particularly on the hauling of scrap. 

Mr. Burling. Yes; I am talking about scrap hauling. 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, on the hauling scrap. When I referred to the 
million-dollar sales of their scrap, it didn't necessarily cover the haul- 
ing. It covered perhaps carloads and hauling. 

Mr. Burling. By the way, is the scrap-metal business a simple busi- 
ness? Assume I am not very smart or assume that I am a college 
graduate. Could I learn it in a day or so ? 

Mr. Freedman. I would say not. 

Mr. Burling. I didn't mean to assume that I am not; but, assume 
that I am a man of normal intelligence but I have no experience in this, 
could I learn it readily ? 

Mr. Freedman. Not necessarily. 

Mr. Burling. Could I sit down with a manual and learn it from a 
book? 

Mr, Freedman. Well, at a certain period of the selling of the mate- 
rial, particularly during the OPA period, there was a ceiling on scrap. 
That theory could have been applied. 

Mr. Burling. I see. 

Now, what is the approximate capital you have invested in your 
scrap-hauling concern? 

Mr. Freedman. I'd say the investment is well over one-half million 
dollars. 

68958— 51— pt. 9 12 



174 ORaANJIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMENCE 

Mr. Burling. Do you have a yard ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Do you have processing machines, shears, torches, 
balers ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Do you have trucks ? 

Mr. Freedman. Trucks and trailers. 

Mr. Burling. At the Briggs plant, do you have a magnetic crane ? 

Mr. Freedman. We do, at intervals generally ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. Wliat kind of equipment do you leave at Briggs ? 

Mr. Freedman. Well, it depends on how busy they are or what ; 
but, generally, we have trucks hauling laborers and loading equipment 
there to take the raw material away. 

Mr. Burling. Now, as I understand, the scrap is taken out of the 
plant by the manufacturer, put in bins, and boxes of some sort, and 
then loaded one way or another onto trucks, taken to the yard, classi- 
fied at the yard, processed, and then loaded onto railroad cars or onto 
trucks for delivery ; is that right ? 

Mr. Freedman. Generally you are right. 

Mr. Burling. And, except when there is an OPA ceiling, the market 
for scrap is rather intricate ; isn't it ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. There are different classes of scraps ? 

Mr. Freedman. Very many ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. And they can fluctuate separately ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. So you have to decide whether to make a bid on all 
scrap or take a chance on what class it will be or whether to be on 
schedule ; is that right ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes. We ourselves were not so familiar on the first 
award ; but, as we handled that account, we became familiar with what 
we could expect to receive from the general production of it, from the 
processing of it. 

Mr. Burling. After you handled the account for 20 years, you are 
more or less familiar with it; is that right? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. I believe you told me that the scrap-metal business 
is one that you have to grow up in, in order to understand; is that a 
fair statement? 

Mr. Freedman. Generally so ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. Now, without reference to any particular individual, 
you wouldn't say that you can take a man without any experience 
just out of college, and teach him the business in a week; would you? 

Mr. Freedman. I'd say not. 

Mr. Burling. Now, were your relations with Briggs, during your 
20 years prior to April 7, 1945, on the whole, harmonious ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know a man named Cleary ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Did he ever accuse you of any unethical practice? 

Mr. Freedman. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Did he ever say you were ever short- weighing him? 

Mr. Freedman. No, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN IN^ERSfTATE COMMERCE 175 

Mr. Burling. Did he ever say lie wanted to get somebody in — in 
respect to your operation, he thought you were cheating him? 

Mr. Freedmax. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. BiTRLixG. He never said anything of that sort ? 

Mr. Freedman. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Did anybody at Briggs ever say that to you? 

Mr. Freedman. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. How about Mr. Herbert? Did he ever say anything 
of that sort to you ? 

Mr. Freedman. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. He is dead now ; isn't he? 

Mr. Freedman. So I understand. 

Mr. Burling. You were friendly with him while he was with 
Briggs ? 

]\Ir. Freedman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. He never leveled any accusations at you ? 

Mr. Freedman. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Burling. Now, did there come a time when Mr. Herbert told 
you that you could not have the Briggs ferrous-scrap award? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. That was about April 1, 1945; wasn't it? 

Mr. Freedman. It was about the first week in April, I believe, 1945. 

Mr. Burling. What did he say to you ? 

Mr. Freedman. Well, we quoted on the material, and the inference 
was that we would continue hauling it. That was, I think, for a 
quarter period, and along about 3 or 4 or 5 days after the first of the 
month we were informed — I don't recall whether it was telephone 
notice — to the effect that the contract was awarded to some other firm. 

Mr. Burling. Who gave you this notice? 

Mr. Freedman. George Herbert. 

Mr. Burling. Did he tell you why ? 

Mr. Freedman. No; he said he didn't know but had been awarded 
some firm which he himself didn't know. 

Mr. Burling. Did he tell you that he had approved it or that he 
was glad that it was going to some other firm ? 

Mr. Freedman. I don't recall that. I think he was surprised him- 
self to learn that. 

Mr. Burling. Did he tell you in effect that he was sorry but that 
"orders were orders"? 

Mr. Freedman. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Did he tell you that Carl Kenda was to take over the 
bid? 

Mr. Freedman. At first, he didn't know or didn't tell us. My 
brother and I were very much interested because it was an important 
account to us. We felt we were entitled to continue it as long as we 
were servicing it properly. It seemed that he was in the dark or 
hestitated to tell us; but, as myself and my brother continued to go 
out to the officials of the Briggs Manufacturing Co., they themselves 
just stated that they were sorry that that business had been awarded 
to someone, and I think perhaps about a week later Mr. Herbert told 
me that it had been awarded to Carl Renda. 

Mr. Burling. In your 40 years in the scrap business, had you ever 
before heard of Carl Renda? 

Mr. Freedman. No, sir. 



176 ORGA^SilZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE GOOVLMERCE 

Mr. Burling. Now, at that time, did you stop taking the scrap out 
of Briggs ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And did ybu thereafter go to see Kenda about con- 
tinuing to take the scrap out of Briggs or reassuming the removal 
of scrap? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes. First, I had to determine who Carl Renda 
was, which I learned, and I then made a date. 

Mr, Burling. What did you learn about him ? 

Mr. Freedman. I learned that he was a family relative of Mr. 
Perron e. 

Mr. Burling. Sam Perrone ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes ; who was servicing the Detroit Stove Co., and 
I believe I contacted Mr. Renda through Mr. Perrone and met him at 
the Statler lobby. 

Mr. Burling. Here in Detroit ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Was your brother along? 

Mr. Freedman. My brother was witli me ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. And Sam Perrone and Carl Renda? 

Mr. Freedman. I think I either met Sam Perrone first or Carl Renda 
and Sam Perrone were together, or he brought him with him. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, what was said? 

Mr. Freedman. Well, Mr. Renda informed me that he was awarded 
the contract for the material, anrl, fra^^kly. he tokl me that he pre- 
ferred not to continue dealing with our firm, on account that we had 
been servicing the account, and that is about it in the main. 

Mr. Burling. I see. Did you prevail upon him? 

Mr. Freedman. I did. 

Mr. Burling. To let you continue ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Burling. And was it agreed that you would go right on doing 
exactly what you had been doing with scrap, only that you would pay 
Renda instead of Briggs? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. What was said about the price ? Did it go up ? 

Mr. Freedman. He didn't know what I was paying Briggs, but 
when I started with the Renda ]3eople I did pay them from about 
$2.50 a ton or more better than I had been paying Briggs or offered 
Briggs, for the future 90 days. 

Mr. Burling. In other words, the cost to you went up about $2 a 
ton? 

Mr. Freedman. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Is it a fair statement to say that the reason you did 
this was that you hoped that if you stayed in there with Briggs some- 
thing would happen and Renda would get out again and you could 
resume your old relations? 

Mr. Freedman. I always felt that ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. That is why you agreed to keep on taking the scrap 
out of Briggs and paying this higher price? 

Mr. Freedman. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. In other words, what was happening was that the 
same trucks were taking the scrap out, the same crane was loading 



ORGAN'IZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATEi COMMERCE 177 

it, the same workmen were doing it, it was in tlie same yard and 
being shipped to the same consignees, is that correct ? 

Mr. Freedman. Exactly. 

Mr. Burling. The only difference was that Renda had been in- 
serted between you and Briggs ? 

Mr. Freedman. Correct. 

Mr. Burling. At an over-ride of about 2 to 2% dollars a ton? 

Mr. Freedman. That is right. Of course, I don't know what Mr. 
Renda was paying for the scrap. 

Mr. Burling. No. But, at least, it would be, assuming he was pay- 
ing what you were paying, an over-ride of 2 to 214 dollars a ton? 

Mr. Freedman. I will say it this way : It was 2I/2 dollars or more, 
better tlian I was paying or offered to pay Briggs for the same scrap. 

Mr. Burling. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, the president of 
Briggs testified that he thought they were giving it to him for nothing. 

Now, did you ask Eenda what it was that he had on Briggs that 
would induce him to cut him in for this free ride? 

Mr. Freedman. No, I was afraid to ask him anything, because he 
didn't want to deal with me. I had to beg him to deal with me. 

Mr. Burling. Had you ever heard of Sam Perrone before? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Burling. What was his reputation? 

Mr. Freedman. Well, I understand he was the man that was haul- 
ing the scrap from the Detroit (Mich.) Stove Co. and, in fact, I con- 
tacted him once or twice on the phone, I believe, trying to get him to 
haul some scrap. 

Mr. Burling. Now, did there come a time when Renda forced you to 
pay him another kind of tribute in relation to trucks ? 

Mr. Freedman. Well, he didn't force me to that. After I had 
dealt with him I would say about a year or longer, maybe 15 to 18 
months, one day he phoned me and said that he was going to start 
dealing with someone else, and handle the scrap himself. So I pre- 
vailed upon him again and he told me that he had bought trucks or 
trailers. I prevailed upon him to take his trailers over and just to 
retain the use of the trailers, to pacify him, to continue the account, 
to deal with me. 

Mr. Burling. Let me see if I understand you correctly. He 
bought trucks. You operated them, maintained them, put gas in them, 
hired the drivers, is that right ? 

Mr. Freedman. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. All he did was to pay for them ? In fact, you paid 
for the insurance ? 

Mr. Freedman. That is right. I think that is right. I think we 
paid the insurance. 

Mr. Burling. All he did was to buy them in the first place and after 
that you had to jyay him $1 for every ton of extra scrap you hauled? 

Mr. Freedman. I believe it was a dollar a ton extra for every ton 
of scrap we hauled out of that plant. 

Mr. Burling. Supposing I had come along and said, "I have got a 
fleet of 50 trucks and I will let you have them." In fact, supposing 
I am making this offer to you today. I have a fleet of 50 trucks. You 
can have them. You drive them. You operate them. You put the 
gas in them. You insure them. You pay the license fees on them 



178 OiRGANIIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

and all you have to do is pay me $1 dollar per ton of scrap hauled. 
Would you think that was a bargain to you ? 

Mr. Freedman. It would be a very bad deal on my part. 

Mr. Burling. It would be an exorbitant price, wouldn't it ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes. However, I set the dollar a ton pace myself. 
He was determined not to continue dealing with me and, again, I sat 
down with Mr. Renda for practically a day on and off sessions, so to 
speak, and begged him to continue with me. 

Mr. Burling. Still in the hopes that you could get back into Briggs 
and Renda would go away ? 

Mr. Freedman. Yes, always hoping that there would be some sort 
of a change. 

Mr. Burling. That is all. 

The Chairman. I think that is all. We are very much obliged that 
you have been very straightforward and forthright. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Travis. I wonder if we can have an opportunity later to bring 
out some more facts, which I think are of great interest to your com- 
mittee, for example, that Mr. Renda only gets one-third of the scrap 
that goes out of Briggs. 

Mr. Burling. Just a moment. I don't think counsel should testify. 

The Chairman. We would be very glad to have you submit a state- 
ment, if you will. 

Mr. Travis. All right. 

The Chairman. Next witness. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God ? 

Mr. Liltgren. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE N. LILYGREN, WASHINGTON, D. C. 

The Chairman. What is your full name, please? 

Mr. Lilygren. George N. Lilygren. 

The Chairman. And your address? 

Mr. Lilygren. 5415 Connecticut Avenue NW, Washington, D. C. 

The Chairman. Were you formerly connected with the Briggs Co.? 

Mr. Lilygren. Yes, I was. 

The Chairman. In what capacity ? 

Mr. Lilygren. As assistant comptroller. 

The Chairman. Until when? 

Mr. Lilygren. Until November 15, 1945. 

Mr. Burling. Before that, what was your job at Briggs? 

Mr. Lilygren. Assistant comptroller. 

Mr. Burling. There was no comptroller, is that right ? 

Mr. Lilygren. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. So, in effect, you were acting comptroller ? 

Mr. Lilygren. No, I wouldn't say exactly that. I covered certain 
areas of the financial department just such as estimating time study, 
time department cost, and accounting, and among them the salvage 
department was under my supervision. 

Mr. Burling. The salvage department was under your supervision ? 

Mr. Lilygren. Yes, it was. 

Mr. Burling. Who had immediate control of the disposal of 
salvage ? 



I 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 179 

Mr. LiLYGREN. George Herbert. 

Mr. Burling. He is dead? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. Yes. 

Mr, Burling. Who was over you with respect to matters relating to 
salvage ? Who would you report to ? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. Well, I reported officially to the man who was 
assistant treasurer, 

Mr, Burling, IVliat was his name? 

Mr, LiLYGREN. Alex Blackwood at that time, 

Mr, Burling. What was Cleary's position ? 

Mr. LiLYGREN, Director of purchases. 

Mr, Burling, Did he have anything to do with salvage ? 

Mr, LiLYGREN, Yes, he did. He and I had joint responsibility on 
the prices, I had the operation of the salvage department and jointly, 
we covered the price angle. 

Mr, Burling, Mr, Cleary is dead, is he? 

Mr, LiLYGREN. Yes, he is. 

Mr. Burling. Now, prior to April 7, 1945, is it correct, if you know, 
that the Woodmere Scrap Metal Co. was customarily the successful 
bidder? 

Mr, LiLYGREN, I don't recall Woodmere particularly. They were 
among the different people that we sold the scrap to, 

Mr, Burling, Now, when did you first learn that a man named 
K-enda got the over-all scrap contract? 

Mr, LiLYGREN, That didn't occur during my time there. 

Mr, Burling, It occurred in April 1945, did it not? 

Mr, LiLYGREN. Not to my knowledge, no. There was no contract 
with Renda, 

Mr, Burling, Well, an arrangement with Renda? 

Mr, LiLYGREN, Yes, there was, 

Mr. Burling. Wlien did that happen ? 

Mr, LiLYGREN. Well, the first that I recall, as near as I can recall, 
the date that he appeared in the picture was around January of 1945. 

Mr. Burling. Would it refresh your recollection if I told you that 
all the testimony is that it took place in April, 1945 ? 

Mr, LiLYGREN, Well, as I recall it, he first appeared on the scene 
earlier than that, I think it was about that time that he was given 
some of the business. 

Mr. Burling, Did he get some or all of the business ? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. Some of the business. 

Mr, Burling, What scrap business was he not getting ? 

Mr, LiLYGREN, As I recall it, he was getting the business from one 
of the plants ; I don't recall which one. 

Mr, Burling, And he thereafter was given the business from all 
the plants? 

Mr, LiLYGREN, Not during my time, no, 

Mr, Burling, Now, did Cleary ever tell you that he felt that the 
old bidder had been shortweighing the company or otherwise cheat- 
ing them ? 

Mr, LiLYGREN, No ; I don't recall anything like that. In fact, we 
had a very careful system to be sure that the weights were right and 
the system that I worked out with George Herbert and 

Mr, Burling, You think it was a pretty good system ? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. I always thought it was, yes. 



180 ORGAJS'IIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. By the way, you have not had any chance to refresh 
your recollection in this matter, have you ? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. No, I haven't. 

Mr. Burling. You vs^ere in a meeting in Washington and we asked 
you to come here just yesterday? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. I have been out of the city since — out of Detroit for 
about 3 1/2 years. 

Mr. Burling. You never saw me before in your life, did you ? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Now, then, you have not, of course, gone over the 
testimony that you gave to Judge Murphy back in 1947 ? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. No. 

Mr. Burling. Now, do you recall there came a time when Mr. Her- 
bert came to you and said that he objected to the deal with Renda? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Burling. What did you do about it ? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. I agreed with him. 

Mr. Burling. You went to Mr. Cleary, did you not ? 

Mr. LiLYOREN. Yes; we discussed it repeatedly. 

Mr. Burling. Is it not the fact that Mr. Cleary told you he had 
orders from Robinson, the vice president, and there was nothing he 
could do about it ? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. That was my understanding ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. That is what Cleary told you ? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Now, you also arrived at an opinion as to what was 
the cause for giving whatever scrap contract was given to Renda and 
you had an opinion as to what the cause of that was, did you not ? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. I had some ideas ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. You informed them, after talking with Mr. Cleary, 
as being coresponsible with him for the scrap picture ? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. No. The opinions were my own. 

The Chairman. ^Vhat was your opinion ? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. I had an opinion there was some relief from labor 
troubles. We had a considerable amount of wildcat strikes there 
during that period of time. 

Mr. Burling. In other words, Renda was to be cut in on the scrap 
deal, and in return for in some way relieving Briggs of labor troubles? 

Mr. LiLYGREN. Well, I had no idea of any tie-in but I did associate 
the cluster of wildcat strikes we had at that period of time. 

The Chairman. That is all. Thank you very much. 

(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF HON. GEOEGE B. MURPHY, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you will give fhis com- 
mittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God ? 

Judge Murphy. George B. Murphy. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, in the next examination I would like 
to ask Mr. Ben Caldwell of Chattanooga, Tenn., to conduct it. He is 
a distinguished attorney of that city and a friend of the chairman and 
full committee and he has in a very public-spirited sense come here to 
help us at his own inconvenience. I would like to ask the chairman's 
permission to have Mr. Caldwell examine the judge. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 181 

The Chairman. I am very pleased to have you do so. 

Mr. Caldwell. Judge Murphy, you worked over 2 years preparing 
this transcript of the One-Man Grand Jury, is that true ? 

Judge Murphy. 1946 and about half of 1947. 

Mr. Caldwell. 1946 and 1947? 

Judge Murphy. I say about a year and a half. 

Mr, Caldwell. We have here the record which was taken from 
your questioning of testimony of the various witnesses called before 
you in that period of time ; is that correct ? 

Judge Murphy. That is right. Mr. Moll and Mr. Garber were 
the examiners and Margaret Cameron was one of the court reporters. 

Mr. Caldwell. I would like to ask your permission, since this has 
not been made public, that this be made a part of the committee's rec- 
ords that is turned over to the committee, for their use as an exhibit, 
as they see fit to use them in this hearing. 

Judge Murphy. Well, I don't see that there is any harm in that 
and I think I'd be glad to cooperate with the committee and release 
the reports that were taken before me when I was sitting as the one- 
man grand juror in the so-called labor rackets case. 

The Chahjman. As a matter of fact. Judge, you are rendering a 
distinct public service in doing what you are doing, sir. 

Judge Murphy. Well, they are no longer used by me and the law 
under which I sat has been repealed and they so to speak pulled the 
rug out from under me, and if they can be of any service to you or your 
committee, I do not see why I shouldn't give them to you and I do 
give them to you. 

Mr. Caldwell. I would like to offer these as an exhibit. 

Judge Murphy. If you want to use them as exhibits, you may use 
them. 

The Chahiman. Thank you very much. Judge. They will be 
marked "Exhibit No. 14." 

(The document identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 14, and appears in the appendix on p. 273.) 

The Chairman. Of course, Judge, we have been familiar with your 
outstanding service in this regard, which has been highly beneficial, 
not only to the community, but as well to others, and we are delighted 
indeed to have the benefit of your splendid work. 

Judge Murphy. I am glad to know somebody is going to make some 
use of them. It cost a lot of time and money and effort. Thank you. 

The Chairman. That will terminate the hearing for today. We 
will resume tomorrow morning at 9 : 30 a. m. 

(Thereupon, at 11 p. m., the committee was adjourned.) 



INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE 

COMMERCE 



friday, february 9, 1951 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee To Investigate Organized 

Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Detroit^ Mich. 

The committee met, pursuant to recess, at 9 : 45 a. m., in room 734, 
Federal Building, Senator Herbert R. O'Conor presiding. 

Present: Senator O'Conor. 

Also present: John L. Burling, associate counsel; John McCor- 
mick, investigator. 

The Chairman. For the benefit of all who are interested — especially 
the press has made inquiry — I might announce that we will continue 
with the hearing throughout the morning and afternoon, the morn- 
ing session going on until after the noon hour, and then we will con- 
clude during the afternoon, remaining in session as late as 5 o'clock, if 
necessary, finishing up the hearing today. 

We call Dean Robinson. 

(Pause.) 

The Chairman. Dean Robinson, of the Briggs Co. 

(Pause.) 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Robinson is under subpena. Mr. Robinson 
called and said he was on his way here. I think the Chair should 
admonish the witnesses to be in attendance and ready when called. 

The Chairman. Yes. It is essential that that be the rule, because, 
otherwise, the continuity of the proceeding is broken. 

We will call Phil Berman. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this committee will 
be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Berman. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF PHILIP BERMAN, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Your full name, please. 

Mr. Ber3ian. Philip Berman. 

The Chairman. And your address, Mr. Berman? 

Mr. Berman. 3240 Rochester. 

The Chairman. And how long have you lived in the city? 

Mr. Berman. 15 years. 

The Chairman. Prior to that, where did you reside ? 

Mr. Berman. New York City. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Berman, could I ask at the outset that 
you keep your voice up for the relatively short time you are on the 
stand ? 

183 



184 O'RGAjs'ized grime in interstate commerce 

Mr. Berman. I will try. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. 

Counsel, will you proceed ? 

Mr. Burling. What is your business, Mr. Berman? 

Mr. Berman. Juke-box operator. 

Mr. Burling. How long have you been in the juke-box business? 

Mr. Berman. Approximately 25 years. 

Mr. Burling. How many boxes do you operate ? 

Mr. Berman. At the present time, approximately 50. 

Mr. Burling. Those are placed around in bars and cafes? 

Mr. Berman. Different locations. 

Mr. Burling, ^^^lat ? 

Mr. Berman. Different locations. 

Mr. Burling. Have you an estimate of how many boxes there are 
in the city ? 

Mr. Berman. Approximately 5,000. 

Mr. Burling. And what is the annual take per box? 

Mr. Berman. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. Wliat is your estimate of it ? 

Mr. Berman. I couldn't give you an approximate take. 

Mr. Burling. What is the approximate take, the average take, on 
your boxes per year ? 

Mr. Berman. About $50,000 per year. 

Mr. Burling. Per box ? 

Mr. Berman. No, for 50 boxes, $1,000 per box. 

Mr. Burling. That would make the annual take about $5,000,000 
for the boxes, if the other boxes are about like yours? 

Mr. Berman. No. There is different equipment. Some are old 
equipment, and some are new. I handle all new equipment, and, 
naturally, the income is a lot greater. 

Mr. Burling. Then it would be something under $5,000,000 ? 

Mr. Berman. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. I ask you to adjust your mind back to 10 or 12 years. 
Did you have any trouble in operating your boxes? 

Mr. Berman. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Will you describe that trouble to us ? 

Mr. Berman. Well, the trouble was as far as competition is con- 
cerned and different people attempting to muscle in. 

Mr. Burling. We would like to know who attempted to muscle in. 

Mr. Berman. Licavoli, Bommarito. 

Mr. Burling. You mean Pete Licavoli ? 

Mr. Berman. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. And what is Bommarito 's first name? 

Mr. Berman. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. Would "Scarf ace" be right ? 

Mr. Berman. I think that is what they call him. 

Mr. Burling. Will you describe the tactics that they used in their 
attempted muscling in ? 

Mr. Berman. Oh, just moving machines in our locations. 

Mr. Burling. What other tactics did tliey use? 

Mr. Berman. Well, I wouldn't know any other tactics, but that 
was enough. 

Mr. Burling. You told Mr. Amis of some other tactics, did you not ? 

Mr. Berman. That was 10 or 12 years ago. This is lately. 



ORGAlS'iIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 185 

Mr, Burling, I am talking about stiiik bombs, for example. 

Mr, Berman. That has happened. 

Mr, Burling, That has happened. Have you ever heard of windows 
being broken ? 

Mr, Berman, That has happened, 

Mr, Burling. That is, if an operator tried to operate boxes with- 
out having Licavoli or Bommarito machines, the establishment would 
be stink-bombed or its windows broken ? 

Mr. Berman. Well, now you are going back again 10 or 12 years 
ago? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. 

Mr. Berman. I have been in this business all that while. 

Mr. Burling. I am talking about the period before the second 
war. You need not be afraid. Speak up. Tell us about it. 

Mr. Berman. I am not afraid, but I want to know what you want 
to know. 

Mr, Burling. I want to know how, the period in the thirties, com- 
petition was carried on in the juke-box business in Detroit. 

The Chairman. Do you understand the question, Mr. Berman ? 

Mr. Berman. Yes. 

The Chairman. Can't you answer that; give us more detail? 

Mr. Berman. I will try to convince you. It will take all day to tell 
the story, but I will try to convince you of the facts. 

The Chairman. You do your best. 

Mr. Berman. When you are referring to years back, machines were 
damaged, machines were pulled out of locations, physical threats, 
people have been hurt. Now, this is going back. Now, at the present 
time, there is a different technique used, and it is a lot finer technique. 
A lot of muscle is being eliminated, but a union is being used to close 
the business definitely, 

Mr. Burling. Is this a bona fide business in your opinion, or is it 
a racket? 

Mr, Berman, I am not in this union ; so I guess the reason is obvious. 

Mr. Burling. Tell us how the so-called union operates in the juke- 
box business today. 

Mr. Berman. Well, there is a tie-up between the union and the as- 
sociation. In order to join the association, you have to join the union, 

Mr. Burling. And who is the head of the association? 

Mr. Berman. Well, its business manager — if I am not mistaken, 
I think his name is Carter, but I am not sure. There is a boss in the 
association, that is supposed to run the association. 

Mr, Burling. Who is the man that really runs it? You know. 
Tell us, 

Mr. Berman. Bufalino, 

Mr. Burling. Bufalino? 

Mr. Berman. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. What relation, if any, is he to Angelo Meli, if you 
know? 

Mr. Berman. I believe he is related through marriage. 

Mr. Burling. Now, is it correct that if you want to be not a worker, 
but an operator of jukeboxes in this city and not have trouble with 
Bufalino, you have to join his union? 

Mr. Berman. Uh-huh. 



186 O'RGAKHZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COOVIMERCE 

The Chairman. That is true? 

Mr. Berman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. That is to say, if I want to buy 10 jukeboxes, my own 
jukeboxes, and place them around in 10 different spots here, I will 
have trouble with Bufalino unless I pay him a fee to join his so-called 
union and pay him a fee each month ; is that right? 

Mr. Berman. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. And supposing I say, "I don't want to do that. I 
will just go right ahead and put my boxes out,'' what happens? 

Mr. Berman. Then you go the hard way — j^icket lines, or a verbal 
threat is given your customers. 

Mr. Burling. What is the initiation fee for this so-called union? 

Mr. Berman. $25 initiation fee and $15 a month. I don't believe 
there is a union in this country that pays as much dues. 

Mr, Burling. Well, it isn't a union at all, if the operator, the owner 
of the jukeboxes, is required to pay, is it? 

Mr. Berman. Yes. He is called an honorary member, with no vot- 
ing privileges. 

Mr. Burling. An honorary member of the iniion ? 

Mr. Berman. I think that is what they call an honorary member, 
but there are no voting privileges. 

The Chairman. No voting privileges? 

Mr. Berman. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Thank you very much. 

The Chairman. All right. Mr. Berman. Tliank you. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Angelo Meli. 

Do you swear the testimony you will give this committee will be the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Meli. I do. 

The Chairman. Take a seat, please. 

TESTIMONY OE ANGELO MELI, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Your full name? 

Mr. Meli. Angelo Meli. 

The Chairman. And, Mr. Meli, your address? 

Mr. Meli. 1016 Devonshire. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived there? 

Mr. Meli. Oh, since 1941 or 1942. 

The Chairman. What business are you engaged in? 

Mr. Meli. I spend most of my time witli a farm and collect some 
property rents. 

The Chairman. All right. Now, will j-ou keep your voice up and 
talk loudly while you are on the stand? 

Mr. Meli. I will do all I can. 

The Chairman. All right; counsel, will you proceed? 

Mr. Burling. Last night I forgot to indicate for the record that 
there is a full-page ad in exhibit 1 by Carl Renda, and, by coincidence, 
the opposite page is a full-page ad for the Meli-dy Enterprises. 

What is the Meli-dy Enterprise? 

Mr. Meli. I don't know. I have nothing to do with that. 

Mr. Burling. Never heard of it ? 

Mr. Meli. I have heard of it. 



ORGAN'IZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATEl COMMERCE 187 

Mr. Burling. All right, what is it ? 

Mr. Meli. I suppose it was an enterprise my nephew was interested 
in. 

Mr. Burling. Vincent Meli ? 

Mr. Meli. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. Yon have nothing to do with it ? 

Mr. Mell. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. All right. Do j^on have anything to do with juke- 
boxes ? 

Mr. Meli. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You have no interest of any sort in jukeboxes? 

Mr. Meli. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Are you sure ? 

Mr. Meli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Do you have a criminal record ? 

Mr. Meli. I have, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You were arrested in 1919, disorderly person ; 1920, 
carrying concealed weapons; 1920, murder; 1920, carrying concealed 
weapons ; 1921, disorderly person ; 1921, carrying concealed weapons ; 
1921, murder; 1921, armed robbery; 1921, violation of United States 
Code; 1921, receiving stolen property; 1922, armed robbery; 1922, 
murder; 1924, extortion; 1927, kidnaping; 1927, violation of pro- 
hibition: 1944, investigation of armed robbery; 1951, investigation. 
Is that correct ? 

Mr. Meli. It must be. 

The Chairman. Well, that does correctly represent your record, 
does it ? There is no question about the accuracy of it? 

Mr. Meli. I suppose it does. 

The Chairman. You ought to know, better than anybody else. 
Now, does it or does it not, so far as you know ? 

Mr. Meli. It is there. I guess it does. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Burling. Will you state again the source of your income, 
please ? 

Mr. Meli. Rents. 

Mr. Burling. How much money do you make from your farm? 

Mr. Meli. I have that on the books. 

Mr. Burling. I know. You must have some idea of what you live 
on. Do you ? 

Mr. Meli. Yes, I have. I own property. Now, I was in the juke- 
box business up until 1943. 

Mr. Burling. You admit you were in the jukebox business? 

Mr. Meli. Up to 1943. 

Mr. Burling. I see. What is the source of your income now ? 

Mr. Meli. Well, just collecting rents from property. 

Mr. Burling. Wliat, approximately, is your net worth ? 

Mr. Meli. I don't know, sir. That is a matter of record. I couldn't 
tell you that. 

Mr. Burling. In 1949 you lost $12,000 on your farm, didn't you? 
Is that right ? 

Mr. Meli. I turned my books in to Mr. Amis way back, since 1940. 

Mr. Burling. Don't you know whether you lost $12,000 on your 
farm ? 



188 OiRGANIIZE'D CRIME IN INTE^STAI^E CP,!M^RpE 

Mr. Meli, I don't remember, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Well, will you look at this photograph and tell me 
whether that is a photograph of your house on Devonshire ? 

Mr. Meli. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. How much did you pay for that house ? 

Mr. Meli. I paid $25,000. 

Mr. Burling. Where is it ? 

Mr. Meli. 1016 Devonshire. 

Mr. Burling. What part of the city is that in ? 

Mr. Meli. Grosse Pointe Park. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, because it is a very handsome, ob- 
viously expensive house, I ask leave to have that photograph marked 
for the record. 

The Chairman. It will be introduced and so marked. 

(The document identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 15, and appears in the appendix on p. 1029.) 

Mr. Burling. Did you insert a full-page ad in this pamphlet ? 

Mr. Meli. I did. 

Mr. Burling. Compliments of Angelo Meli, Mr. Chairman. 

You said the Meli-dy Enterprise was something of your nephew's. 
Did you have any interest in the Meli-dy Enterprise? 

Mr. Meli. No. 

Mr. Burling. No? 

Mr. Meli. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Then how did you come to lose money on it? 

Mr. Meli. On what ? 

Mr. Burling. The Meli-dy Enterprise. You took a tax deduction 
on the Meli-dy Enterprise, 1946 — excuse me, I have the wrong one. 

I withdraw that, in fairness to the witness. 

The Chairman. All right. It is withdrawn. 

Any further questions ? 

Mr. Burling. What is the J. & J. Novelty Co. ? 

Mr. Meli. That used to be a jukebox operation. 

Mr. Burling. When did you withdraw from the jukebox business? 

The Chairman. 1943, you said. 

Mr. Meli. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And you have not had anything to do with the juke- 
boxes since then? 

Mr. Meli. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You are not engaged with your son-in-law, Buf alino, 
in the jukebox business? 

Mr. Meli. No. He is not my son-in-law. 

Mr. Burling. Is he any relation to you ? 

Mr. Meli. He is married to my niece. 

Mr. Burling. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. No further questions. That is all. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. William Buf alino, will you step up, please? 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. BuFALiNO. I do. 



ORGANiIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATEi COMMERCE 189 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM EUGENE BUFALINO, DETROIT, MICH., 

AND PITTSTON, PA. 

The Chairman. Now, your full name, please? 

Mr, BuFALiNO. William Eugene Bufalino. 

The Chairman. And your address? 

Mr. Bufalino. 12353 Wilsliire, Detroit 5, Mich., and I also have 
a residence in Pittston, Pa., 47 East Railroad Street. 

The Chairman. For how long have you maintained your residence 
here? 

Mr. Bufalino. I came here — I don't know the beginning of my 
residence. 

The Chairman. Just approximately. 

Mr. Bufalino. I was transferred to Romulus Army Air Field, Rom- 
ulus, Mich., right outside of Detroit. 

The Chairman. Just tell us the year. 

Mr. Bufalino. 1944. 

The Chairman. All right, 7 years. Thank you very much. Will 
you keep up your voice and answer more promptly, a little more 
directly than you did the last question? 

All right, counsel. 

Mr. Burling. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Bufalino. I am an attorney by profession, and I am the presi- 
dent and business agent of Teamsters Local 985, Detroit. 

Mr. Burling. And what does 985 cover ? 

Mr. Bufalino. The coin machine union for the State of Michigan 
and garage workers and car washers. 

Mr. Burling. Now, by "coin machines" you mean jukeboxes? 

Mr. Bufalino. By "coin machines" I mean vending machines and 
automatic phonographs, which we term "jukeboxes." 

Mr. Burling. You were just referring to what you call automatic 
phonographs. What is the union's practice in respect to that? 

Mr. Bufalino. May I have a few clarifications? At the outset 
yesterday, when Senator O'Conor started to explain the purpose of 
this commission, I was asked to leave the room, and I would like to have 
some clarification by the commission. I was told at the time that I 
was first called that I was personally being investigated, and I w^ould 
like to know whether or not my union is being investigated or I, in my 
l^ersonal capacity, am being investigated. I welcome investigation 
personally. 

The Chairman. Well, as long as you welcome it, suppose you answer 
the questions, and you will find out. 

Will you proceed, counsel? 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Papa John Fizziola? 

Mr. Bufalino. I know a Mr. John Fizziola. I don't know him as 
Papa John. 

Mr. Burling. He was with you in the Bilvin Distributing Co. ; is 
that right? 

Mr. Bufalino. I believe he was a director of the Bilvin Distributing 
Co. 

Mr. Burling. And so were you before the war ? 

Mr. Bufalino. No. 

Mr. Burling. When were you in Bilvin 2 

6S95S — 51 — pt. 9 13 



190 ORGANIIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COQViMERCE 

Mr. BuFALiNO. In 1946, February of 1946. 

Mr. Burling. What business was Bilvin in ? 

Mr. BuFALiNO. In the distribution for the State of Michigan of 
automatic phonographs, Wurlitzer distributorship. 

Mr. Burling. That was before you were in the union? At that 
time you were on the employers' side; is that right? 

Mr. Butalino. Before I was in the union I was on the employers' 
side, that's right. 

Mr, BuRi.iNG. And when did you leave Bilvin ? 

Mr. BuFALiNO. I left Bilvin in May or June of 1947. 

Mr. Burling. By the way, is it correct to say that the gross of 
Bilvin for 1946 was $1,093,411? 

Mr. BuFALiNO. I have no independent recollection of that. 

Mr. Burling. Well, would a million-dollar gross be about right? 

Mr. BuFALiNO. I have no recollection as to what it would be. The 
books would reveal that. 

Mr. Burling. But you wouldn't quarrel with me if I say the records 
show a gross of over a million dollars in 1946? 

Mr. Bufalino. I wouldn't quarrel, but I wouldn't agree with you 
on it. 

Mr. Burling. How did you come to leave such a prosperous busi- 
ness and go to work for the union ? 

Mr. Bufalino. I came to leave it because it wasn't a prosperous 
business. 

Mr. Burling. Jukeboxes aren't prosperous here? 

Mr. Bufalino. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. If I wanted to start operating jukeboxes in 10 dif- 
ferent locations and buy the jukeboxes, do I have to do business with 
your union ? 

Mr. Bufalino. No, you don't have to. 

Mr. Burling. Supposing I don't, and I put out 10 boxes in 10 spots, 
what would your union do to me ? 

Mr. Bufalino. Not a thing. 

Mr. Burling. Tou wouldn't throw a picket line around the es- 
tablishments ? 

Mr. Bufalino. I have to know every case and the individual cir- 
cumstances. If you give me a hypothetical case, I would answer it. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever thrown a picket line around an es- 
tablishment where that was done? 

Mr. Bufalino. I don't recall that. 

Mr. Burling. Well, Mr. Chairman, I have four affidavits relating to 
muscling in. I have photostats of them, which I would like to place 
in the record. I offer them in evidence. 

The Chairman. All right. 

(The documents identified were thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 16, and appear in the appendix on p. 1029.) 

The Chairman. That is all, Mr. Bufalino. 
Dean Robinson. Has he arrived yet? 

Mr. Bufalino. May I add one other thing? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Bufalino. I would like to read one statement irito the record, 
that if any accusations have been lodged against me or if this com- 
mission calls any witnesses to contradict anything that I have testi- 



ORGAN'IZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATB OOOVOIERCE 191 

fied to, in order that the public might not be left with any doubts, 
I would appreciate an opportunity to be faced with any misinforma- 
tion, and I would be glad to wait as long as you would want me to. 

The Chaieman. That is entirely in your rights. If your name is 
mentioned, or if there is any reference to you, you are perfectly at 
liberty to ask to be heard, and you will be accorded the opportunity. 

Mr. BuFALiNO. Thank you. May I leave now and be subject to 
call? 

The Chairman. Yes, indeed. At any time the hearing is in prog- 
ress, if you feel your reputation is being damaged, you may have 
an opportunity to answer. 

Mr. BuFALiNO. Thank you. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Dean Robinson. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. Robinson. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM DEAN ROBINSON, GROSSE POINT PARK, 

DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Your full name, please ? 

Mr. Robinson. William Dean Robinson. 

The Chairman. And, Mr. Robinson, your address ? 

Mr. Robinson. 204 Provencal Road, Grosse Pointe. 

The Chairman. And your business connection ? 

Mr. Robinson. Briggs Manufacturing Co. 

The Chairman. And what is your position there ? 

Mr. Robinson. President and general manager. 

The Chairman. President and general manager of Briggs. And 
for how long have you been connected with the company, Mr. Robin- 
son? 

Mr. Robinson. I have been with the company since March of 1943. 

The Chairman. I see. Now, might I ask that you keep your voice 
a little louder, so we can all hear you ? Thank you. 

Counsel, will you proceed? 

Mr. Burling. Are you acquainted with Mr. John Fry ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. I have known him for many years. 

Mr. Burling. A close friend of yours ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Now, will you tell us whether, in 1945, in the month 
of April, there was any change in the manner in which scrap was 
removed from your company ? 

Mr. Robinson. There was a change in the people who handled scrap 
in 1945. 

Mr. Burling. Is it your testimony, sir, that the people who handled 
scrap physically changed in any way ? 

Mr. Robinson. I couldn't tell you who initially handled the scrap, 

Mr. Burling. I don't mean the workers. I mean the contractors 
•who arranged to have the scrap picked up in the yard and hauled 
out. Was that changed ? 

Mr. Robinson. I couldn't tell you. I know that the contract was 
let. It was given to another party than had had it previously. 



192 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE^ C'OOVIMERCE 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Robinson, search your recollection and see if 
you can't recall testifying under oath that there was no such change. 

Mr. Robinson. I didn't say there was no change. 

Mr. Burling. You didn't say that previously ? 

Mr. Robinson. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. I believe you testified that there was a change in the 
men who had the contract but there was no change in the method of 
disposal of the scrap. Isn't that right ? 

Mr. Robinson. No ; there was no change in the method. 

Mr. Burling. Well, the same people took it out ; isn't tliat right ? 

Mr. Robinson. I don't know whether the same people took it out 
or not. 

Mr. Burling. What position did you hold in 1945 ? 

Mr. Robinson. I became president in October of 1945. Prior to 
that I was vice president and assistant general manager. 

Mr. Burling. You were assistant general manager'^ 

Mr. Robinson. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling. And you didn't know who was hauling scrap out of 
Briggs ? 

Mr. Robinson. No. I knew there was a change in the contract, 
which I had said, in 1945. 

Mr. Burling. I am not interested in change of contract. The ques- 
tion is : Don't you know very well that the same people kept on hauling 
it out? 

Mr. Robinson. No ; I do not know. 

Mr. Burling. Well, on page 276 in the Murphy grand jury minutes 
this question and answer appear : "Are you acquainted with the 
changes that came about in the latter part of March and the first 
part of April 1945, in the method of the disposal of scrap in the 
Briggs Manufacturing plant?" Answer: "As far as I know, there 
was no change in the method of disposal, but there was a change in 
the people who had the contract on scrap." 

Mr. Robinson. That is exactly what I have said now. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Mr. Louis Freedman ? 

Mr. Robinson. No, sir ; I don't believe I do. 

Mr. Burling. He has been hauling your scrap out for more than 
20 years, and you don't know him ? 

Mr. Robinson. I don't know him, 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever heard of Woodmere Scrap Metal Co. ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Don't you know the Woodmere Scrap Metal Co. was 
hauling it out before 1945 and still is today? 

Mr. Robinson. I understand they are. 

Mr. Burling. So you know that the people that haul the scrap out 
didn't change, don't you? 

Mr. Robinson. Well, I do now ; yes. 

The Chairman. When did you learn that? 

Mr. Robinson. I don't know, sir; since this case came up. 

Mr. Burling. Was it a surprise to you when you learned it? 

Mr. Robinson. No; not necessarily. 

Mr. Burling. Now, tell us how it happened that in April 1945, 
Woodmere, which had been the successful bidder the past 18 or 20 
years, suddenlv stopped being the contractor to buy the Briggs scrap 
and Carl Renda gets the contract. 



O'RGANIZE'D' CRIME IN INTERSTATE; COOVIMERCE 193 

Mr. Robinson. That I can't tell you. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. Yon gave the order yourself; did you not? 

Mr. Robinson. I did not. 

Mr. Burling. Are you going to say Mr. Cleary, who is dead, did 
it? Is that right? 

Mr. Robinson. Mr. Cleary was in charge of making arrangements 
for hauling scrap for Briggs Manufacturing. 

INIr. Burling. And you haven't any idea why he changed the ar- 
rangement ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes ; I think I have an idea. 

INIr. Burling. Suppose you go ahead and tell us. 

INIr. Robinson. We had constantly had complaints through our in- 
dustrial relations department about short weight and theft of tools 
and other parts going out of our plant, and, naturally, we thought they 
were being liauled out by trucks that Avere hauling out our scrap. We 
never could prove it. 

Mr. Burling. So you kept having the same trucks, and the same 
laborers hauling scrap out but put Renda in between you and Wood- 
mere. Now, what sense does that make ? 

Mr. Robinson. I don't know why Mr. Cleary did that. I suppose 
it was because he thought it necessary to make a change. Wliy, I 
don't know. 

Mr. Burling. The testimony the committee received last night, Mr. 
Robinson, is that Cleary, before he died, said he was sorry to make the 
change, to hire Renda, but he did it on orders from you. Now, would 
you say that Cleary was a liar ? 

Mr. Robinson. Mr. Cleary is not a liar. Mr. Cleary is as fine a 
gentleman as I have ever known. He wouldn't have clone that for 
me or for anybody else if he didn't think it was the right thing to do. 
I am sure of it. 

Mr. Burling. Do you think Mr. Lilygren is a liar? 

Mr. Robinson. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. He testified under oath that Cleary told him he was 
sorry to do this, and Mr. Freedman testified to the same eifect — that 
is, ]\Ir. Herbert — that he was ordered by you to do it. 

Mr. Robinson. That is not true. 

Mr. Burling. Did you know anything about Renda in 1945 when 
he got the contract ? 

Mr. Robinson. No, sir ; I met him shortly after he got the contract. 

Mr. Burling. Well, what equipment, what capital equipment did 
he have to carry out this scrap contract? 

Mr. Robinson. I do not know. 

Mr. Burling. Did you investigate ? 

Mr. Robinson. I did not. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know whether he had a yard or a railroad 
siding? 

Mr. Robinson. I don't know anything about his business. Cleary 
handled the whole deal. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever ask Cleary why he would take a fellow 
1 year out of college without an office, without a telephone, without 
any technical training whatever, with no capital, no trucks, no load- 
ing equipment, no yard, no siding, no processing machinery? 

Mr. Robinson. No, sir. 



194 OiRGANIIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COOVEMERCE 

Mr. Burling. You never asked him ? 

Mr. Robinson. No. 

Mr. Burling. It didn't strike you as odd that he suddenly started 
to do business with this firm ? 

Mr, EoBiNSON. How would I know ? I didn't know. I didn't have 
anything to do with it. 

Mr. Burling. I suggest to you, Mr. Robinson, that what happened 
was that Mr. Fry told you that he had been successful in dealing with 
his labor problems by giving his scrap contract to Sam Perrone and 
you might do well to set up a similar deal with his son-in-law. 

Mr. Robinson. That is not true. I have never had any business 
deals with Mr. Fry. 

Mr. Burling. The only evidence that that is not true is Mr. Cleary, 
who is dead ? 

The Chairman. Mr. Robinson, is there no more light that you can 
shed on this matter ? Because to the committee it really does appear 
to be a thing that requires explanation, and I should think in fairness 
to the good name of your company, you would be interested in en- 
lightening the committee as to why this inexplicable thing occurred. 

Mr. Robinson. I certainly would if I could. 

The Chairman. Well, you have admitted that you did inquire as to 
Renda shortly after he got the contract ? 

Mr. Robinson. No, I did not inquire as to Renda. 

The Chairman. Well, you learned about him. 

Mr. Robinson. I learned that he had the contract; yes. 

The Chairman. Well, weren't you sufficiently interested in ascer- 
taining the facts as to why there had been a change and why a man 
who impressed you as being a straightforward and trustworthy in- 
dividual was ousted and he brought in, just as counsel has said, with 
no equipment and nothing to commend him for this special considera- 
tion, as a result of which he earned $100,000 in the second year ? 

Mr. Robinson. It depends on how much business he did, of course. 
It sounds like a large figure, but our scrap business is a tremendous 
business. 

The Chairman. And that is the very reason I should think that you 
would have gone to the bottom of this instead of just dismissing it in 
just such a cavalier manner as you have appeared to have done. 

Mr. Robinson. I had confidence in Mr. Cleary to handle his own 

The Chairman. If the business was sufficiently large to give a man 
who said he was a mere broker $100,000, certainly it was sufficiently 
important for Briggs to get to the bottom of it. 

Mr. Robinson. Mr. Cleary got his money, I am sure. He got paid 
for it. 

The Chairman. And our concern is whether or not any ulterior 
considerations motivated your company, because on the face of it, 
it looks absurd, to be perfectly frank with you, Mr. Robinson, and it 
brings us to believe that it is a pretty sorry state of affairs if American 
industry is brought to the point where it has to deal with hoodlums 
and has to deal with men in connections in the imderworld and with 
criminal records, in order to carry on their business. 

Now, if a man who has connections like — and I am referring to the 
Perrones and their like — muscled in on otherwise legitimate business, 
then there seems to be something that the public is entitled to know 



OiRGANilZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE^ OQiMMERCE 195 

and that the Congress ought to be apprised of and take cognizance of, 
and that seems to be the state of affairs here. 

Now, can't you give us any explanation or state anything for the 
record which will clarify that matter? 

Mr. Robinson. We do not and never have dealt with racketeers or 
gangsters. 

The Chairman. Well, the truth of it is that Renda came in and 
the same condition continued as before, except that he was inserted 
in between, and allowed to come in and walk off with $100,000. Now, 
that certainly isn't in the interest of good business. 

Mr. Robinson. I don't know what the situation was. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Robinson, from what I understand, Cleary took 
this upon himself, and you didn't know about it until sometime later. 

Mr. Robinson. After the contract was let, Mr. Cleary told me 
about it. 

Mr. Burling. That is not true ; is it, Mr. Robinson ? 

Mr. Robinson. It is absolutely true. 

Mr. Burling. Then did you commit perjury before Judge Murphy? 

Mr. Robinson. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You said the opposite before him ; didn't you ? 

Mr. Robinson. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. I will read to you from the record : 

Question. Well, am I to assume Mr. Cleary took tbis upon himself to change 
the policy o-f some 18-20 years' standing in letting the sale of scrap of Briggs 
Manufacturing without your approval? 

Answer. He did get my approval on the change. 

Mr. Robinson. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling. That is not what you said a moment ago; is it, 
sir? 

Mr. Robinson. That is correct. He brought Mr. Renda after he 
had made the contract with him, in my office. 

Mr. Burling. That is not getting approval to do something. The 
question Jiere was: Did Cleary, a subordinate, undertake a change of 
policy that had been outstanding for 18 years? You said "No"; 
that he got your approval. 

Mr. Robinson. We had no change in policy. 

Mr. Burling. You have been doing business with Woodmere for 
18 years. Suddenly you take in a man who had never been in the scrap 
business bebf ore ; isn't that a change ? 

Mr. Robinson. That is correct ; it is a change. 

Mr. Burling. Well, did Cleary clear with you before he did it or 
not? 

Mr. Robinson. No. 

Mr. Burling. So your testimony before Judge Murphy was per- 
jurious? 

Mr. Robinson. No. I told you and I believe I told him, Mr. Cleary, 
when he made the change, brought this man Renda in and introduced 
him to me. 

The Chairman. For what purpose and what transpired ? 

Mr. Robinson. Because there had been so much criticism and so 
many reports about being short-changed on our scrap business, and 
tools and other materials being stolen from the plant. 

The Chairman. Subsequent events demonstrated that that was an 
alibi, or a fake reason, because the self -same people continued to do it. 



196 ORGAM[ZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

You, as president of the company, under obligation to the company 
as well as to the general public, certainly must have had interest to 
follow up and see that the change that was then effected produced 
results, and if you did manifest any interest whatsoever, you would 
have learned that the self -same people were carrying on day after 
day, and that there was no change effected, so this very compelling 
reason for the change to be made was just an empty gesture; isn't 
that true ? 

Mr. Robinson. That is not true. 

The Chairman. Why isn't it true ? What actual change was made? 

Mr. Robinson. I will tell you that w^e are very well satisfied with 
the job that Mr. Renda has done. He has done a very good job. 

The Chairman. What has he done if the same people carried on? 

Mr. Robinson. If it is the same people that handled it before, he 
is doing a lot better than they did. 

Mr. Burling. What service has Carl Renda rendered of any nature 
whatsoever ? 

Mr. Robinson. Well, he rendered service every hour of the day. 

Mr. Burling. Please tell us wdiat the service is. 

Mr. Robinson. The service is taking care of a part of our scrap 
situation. 

Mr. Burling. No, sir; he doesn't. He testified himself that the 
same people that were doing it kept right on doing it. 

Mr. Robinson. I don't know anything about his business. I don't 
know who he has working for him. 

Mr. Burling. Wait a minute. There was a scandal in 1946. There 
was a one-man grand jury investigation. Were you called before it? 

Mr. Robinson. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling. And you still don't know that Renda doesn't do any- 
thing with respect to the scrap ? 

Mr. Robinson, I know he has the contract to handle our scrap. 

Mr. Burling. But who takes the scrap out of Briggs ? Is it Wood- 
mere ? ^ 

Mr. Robinson. You told me. 

Mr. Burling. I want you to tell me. 

Mr. Robinson. It is Woodmere. 

The Chairman. Then it is not Renda ? 

Mr. Robinson. It is Renda. Renda has the contract. How he 
runs the business, I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. You said it was Woodmere. 

Mr. Robinson. You told me. You put words in my mouth. 

The Chairman. You are the president of the company. 

Mr. Robinson. I wouldn't have any reason to check that. 

The Chairman. You were summoned before the grand jury. You 
don't w^ant us to believe 

Mr. Robinson. Mr. Renda has done a very good job. 

The Chairman. That is your stock answer? 

Mr. Robinson. That is correct. 

The Chairman. But the fact is that you were called before the grand 
jury and you were put on notice that this matter was under inquiry 
and it has some sinister aspects and you want us to believe that you 
didn't, as president of the company, feel sufficiently concerned to go 
to the very bottom of it and find out what it was all about ? 

Mr. Robinson. I did. 



ORGANIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 197 

The CiiAiRMAisr. Didn't you learn tliat Woodmere was still con- 
tinuing to carry the scrap, and is up until this day, and that E-enda 
has not been carrying it out ? 

Mr. Robinson. I am not interested in any part of Mr. Renda's busi- 
ness. That is his own business. 

Mr. Burling. Do you care at all about the reputation of the Briggs 
Manufacturing Co. ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Burling. I will say to you now that I am uphappily one of your 
stockholders and I intend to put my stock on the market, if that is 
the way you run the company. 

Mr. Robinson. That is your privilege. 

Mr. Burling. You had ample notice in 1946 that Renda was a 
racketeer; did you not? 

Mr. Robinson. No. 

Mr. Burling. You didn't learn that in the course of the Murphy 
grand jury? 

Mr. Robinson. No, I didn't. 

Mr. Burling. I want to correct myself. Renda has no record. 
Renda doesn't do anything. The man that you really are paying is 
Sam Perrone; isn't that right? 

Mr. Robinson. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You know that Sam Perrone is his father-in-law ? 

Mr. Robinson. I do. 

Mr. Burling. You learned that in 1946 ? 

Mr. Robinson. On the grand jury investigation ; that is correct. 

Mr. Burling. And you know Renda has a criminal record? 

Mr. Robinson. No. 

Mr. Burling. I am sorry, I misspoke. He doesn't have a criminal 
record. 

Do you know that Perrone has a criminal record ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Your friend Mr. Fry told you that he went away to 
jail on a 6-year sentence, did he not? 

Mr. Robinson. I heard that, I believe, on the grand jury investiga- 
tion that he had served time. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Fry didn't tell you, though ? 

Mr. Robinson. No. 

Mr. Burling. Now, I want to read you the closing — I think it is 
the closing — passage in your testimony of the grand jury. By the way, 
is it correct that after the grand jury got going and Mr. Garber had 
put the case in, a Mr. Moll was appointed as special assistant to the 
attorney general ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes, I believe so. 

Mr. Burling. He was examining you ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. He called you "Dean"? 

Mr. Robinson. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. You and he are friends ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes, for a number of years. 

Mr. Burling. You didn't think it was odd that someone who was 
examining you, your conduct, should be a friend of yours and he did 
not disqualify himself? 

Mr. Robinson. No. 



198 O'RGANaZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE^ COOVIMERCE 

Mr. BuELiNG. It reads: 

Mr. Moll. Do you think, Dean, on the other hand you could shake loose from 
these birds at this time? 
Answer. Sure, we could shake loose. 

This is back in 1946, is it not? 
Mr. KoBiNSON. That is correct. 
Mr. Burling (reading) : 

Mr. Moll. Without any difficulty? 

Answer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moll. I think this might be a time for a frank discussion o££ the record. 

Now, will you tell us what the substance of that frank discussion 
which you, Judge Murphy, and Mr. Moll had about shaking loose from 
these birds? 

Mr. KoBiNSON. I don't recall any discussion of that. 

The Chairman. Do you not recall that reference? 

Mr. KoBiNsoN. I recall that, but I don't recall the discussion because 
I didn't know anything about it. 

Mr. Burling. It was suggested to you 5 years ago that you termi- 
nated the contract? 

Mr. Robinson. Why should we? 

Mr. Burling. Because Mr. Renda performed no legitimate service 
for you ? 

Mr. Robinson. I beg your pardon, he is doing a good job handling 
our 

Mr. Burling. Will you tell us now once and for all : What service 
does Renda perform of any nature whatsoever ? 

Mr. Robinson. Well, he is serving us every hour, every day, as I told 
you. He is the contact man as far as we are concerned with any scrap 
that has to be moved out of certain locations and he is called. They 
don't call anybody else. They call Mr. Renda, in my opinion. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know if you ever investigated him ? 

Mr. Robinson. I never investigated his business ; no. 

The Chairman. How do you know he performs services every hour? 

Mr. Robinson. I know from our own people. I have checked to 
see we are paid, what prices we get, and I know that he is doing a 
good job. 

Mr. Burling. I know you pay, there is no doubt about that. You 
checked your own people — have you checked your own people to see 
whether they call Renda on a particular movement of scrap or they 
call Woodmere? 

]\Ir. Robinson. No ; but I assume they would. 

Mr. Burling. I do not care whether you assume; have you ever" 
checked it ? 

Mr. Robinson. No. 

Mr. Burling. Do you not think you have an obligation to check? 

Mr. Robinson. No. 

Mr. Burling. Even though 5 years ago you knew there was a grand 
jury investigation of the very charges we are talking about here, 
you have not thought it appropriate to check ? 

Mr. Robinson. No. 

Mr. Burling. You have no way of stating of your own knowledge 
that Renda performs any service then, have you ? 

Mr. Robinson. I have told you repeatedly. 



ORGAN'IZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 199 

Mr. Burling. You have not checked and you do not know and 
you assume that he performed this service. However, you will not 
tell us and stubbornly refuse to tell us what services he performs. 
Can you not help us a little ? 

JNIr. Robinson. I have told you before that as far as I am con- 
cerned in my opinion he is the contact man that our people would 
get in touch with to handle the scrap in the normal way of our 
business. 

Mr. Burling. Do 3'ou contact him? 

Mr. EoBiNSON. No. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever checked to see whether anybody else 
contacts him except to pay him ? 

Mr. Robinson. I don't go with him. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever checked ? 

Mr. Robinson. No. 

Mr. Burling. You have no reason to say that except that you 
assume it? 

Mr. Robinson. I assume that that is correct. 

Mr. Burling. You cannot testify of your own knowledge? 

Mr. Robinson. No. 

Mr. Burling. I think the point is made, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Robinson, that will suffice. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Emil Mazey. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. Mazey. I do. 

TESTIMONY OP EMIL MAZEY, SECRETARY-TREASURER, UAW-CIO, 

DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Wliat is your full name, please? 

Mr. Mazey. Emil Mazey. 

The Chairman. What is your address, Mr. Mazey? 

Mr. Mazey. I live at 20574 Buffalo. 

The Chairman. And your occupation ? 

Mr. Mazey. I am secretary-treasurer of the UAW-CIO. 

The Chairman. Mr. Mazey, there are certain questions on a limited 
phase of the matter we desire to put to you first, and then later wo 
will ask for the benefit of your knowledge on a broader scale. 

Counsel, will you proceed? 

Mr. Burling. In other words, we are going to ask you some ques- 
tions now. Have you ever been associated in any way with the Briggs 
Manufacturing Co.? 

Mr. Mazey. Yes ; I have. 

Mr. Burling. Will you state when you first were and how? 

Mr. Mazey. I began working for the Briggs Manufacturing Co. in 
April of 1936, and my employment was terminated with the com- 
pany on December 1, 1936, because I was the leader of the organiza- 
tional drive of the UAW-CIO in the plant. I was discharged on that 
day. I was bodily thrown out of the plant by four of the company 
thugs on the night of December 1. 



200 ORGAKiIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COOMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. Go on and tell us the story of your association briefly. 

Mr. Mazey. Subsequently, I organized a plant. I was president 
of the Briggs local for 5 years. 

Mr. Burling. Will you give us the dates ? 

Mr. Mazey. From 1937 through 1941. 

Mr. Burling. You were president of the Briggs local? 

Mr. Mazey. That is right. At the present time, I am director of 
the Briggs department of our union. I have negotiated with the offi- 
cials of the Briggs Manufacturing Co. in most of the contracts, in- 
cluding their first contract and their most recent contract. 

Mr. Burling. Well, now, I will ask you to address your attention 
to a time beginning around April 1, 1945. How were the labor rela- 
tions at Briggs at that time? Was there anything special that 
happened ? 

Mr. Mazey. Well, April 1, 1945— 

Mr. Burling. April 1 ? 

Mr. Mazey. It is around that particular date, a number of members 
of my local union were beaten up by thugs. The first person that was 
beaten up in May of 1945 was Art Vega. 

Mr. Burling. That is the first of the so-called 

Mr. Mazey. First of the Briggs beatings. 

Mr. Burling. What was the date? 

Mr. Mazey. I believe May 27, 1945. That same year, Roy Snowden, 
who was a sergeant of arms of the local union, was beaten up twice 
in the fall of 1945. 

In early 1946, Jeonora Dollinger, a steward in the plant, was beaten 
up in her home on June 1. 

Mr. Burling. That was a woman who was beaten ? 

Mr. Mazey. A woman; yes. They broke into her home and beat 
her up while she was in bed. 

On June 1, 1946, Ken Morris, president of my present local 212, was 
severely beaten up by unknown thugs. 

Following the first beatings which took place — the beatings of 
Vega, Snowden, and Dollinger — I was in the Army. I got out 
of the Army in May 1946, and I was elected regional director of the 
UAW-CIO while in the service, and Ken Morris was beaten up shortly 
after I came out of the Army. 

Mr. Burling. Can you fix the date ? 

Mr. Mazey. He was beaten up on June 1, 1946. I got out of the 
Army May 16, 1946. I checked into these beatings and found that 
the police department had apparently done nothing to solve these 
problems. 

Mr. Burling. They were not solved ? 

Mr. Mazey. They weren't solved. 

Mr. Burling. Did Briggs' itself do anything to endeavor to solve 
the problem? 

Mr. Mazey. No, they didn't do anything to my knowledge. I 
had information that was given to us about the scrap deal, the 
details as to how they obtained it, and I felt that the motive or 
reason for the beatings was that the company had given the scrap 
contract to Carl Renda, and that the payoff was for the beatings that 
were administered the followers of mine in our union. 1 pre- 
sented this information to Judge Jayne of the circuit court, and 
asked him to establish a one-man grand jury. Judge Jayne tried 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 201 

to convince me that the grand jury of Judge Murphy ought to handle 
this problem, which is already in effect. 

I argued with Judge Jayne and I felt a special grand jury should 
deal with this problem alone. However, I was unable to convince 
him and this matter was referred to Judge George Murphy's grand 

jury. 

Mr. BuBLiNG. We have the record of that. 

Mr. Mazey. I presented information to that grand jury relating to 
these beatings and our particular opinion as to why the beatings 
took place. 

Mr. Burling. That is already in the record. 

Mr. Mazey. That is in the record. 

Mr. Burling. I have just one more question. Did you ever com- 
municate your suspicions concerning Mr. Eenda to any Briggs offi- 
cials ? 

Mr. Mazey. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Burling. Will you name the officials ? 

Mr. Mazey. I gave it to Fay Taylor, who was the personnel director 
of the company, who is now dead, and also gave it to Mr. Walter 
Connelly, who is presently the personnel director of the company. I 
told the company indirectly our feelings and suspicions about these 
matters. 

Mr. Burling. You do not know whether the company ever checked 
into the Renda deal ? 

Mr. Mazey. I am quite certain that the company did check into it 
from information that I got from people that occasionally gave me 
information of the companies and their workings. 

Mr. Burling. You know, of course, Renda is Sam Perrone's son- 
in-law ? 

Mr. Mazey. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know anything about Sam Perrone's labor 
operation ? 

Mr. Mazey. Yes ; I am familiar with some of his operations. 

Mr. Bulling. Has the UAW ever tried to organize the Michigan 
Stove Works ? 

Mr. Mazey. Yes ; they tried to organize a plant on three occasions. 
On two occasions, they did organize a plant. 

Mr. Burling. When were those occasions ? 

Mr. Mazey. It was organized some time in 1937. 

Mr. Burling. The testimony is that Mr. Sam Perrone went in 
jail in February 1937. We would be interested in knowing the date 
that you managed to organize it. 

Mr. Mazey. I had no individual contact with the organization, but 
the information that I have indicates that the plant was organized 
after Mr. Perrone was in jail. 

Mr. Burling. What happened when Mr. Perrone got out of jail? 

Mr. Mazey. The organization disappeared. 

Mr. Burling. I have no further questions. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. John Bugas. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should show that 
Mr. Walker is coming forward. I rather expected Mr. Bugas to be 
here today. I do not know and I have not heard from him. I ex- 
pected him to be here. 



202 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Before being sworn in, what is your full name ? 

Mr. Walker. Gordon L. Walker, 

The Chairman. Mr. Walker, you stood up when Mr. Bugas' name 
was called. Are you here representing him? 

Mr. Walker. I am representing him. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Walker. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF GORDON L. WALKER, FORD MOTOR CO., DETROIT, 

MICH. 

The Chairman. What is your full name? 

Mr. Walker. Gordon L. Walker. 

The Chairman. What is your address? 

Mr. Walker. I live in Dearborn, at 535 South Gulley Road. 

The Chairman. What is your business connection? 

Mr. Walker. Manager of the securities and communications de- 
partment for the Ford Motor Co. 

The Chairman. Mr. Walker, you have just volunteered the infor- 
mation that you were here representing John Bugas. Why is he 
not here? 

Mr. Walker. I have no knowledge why he is not. Senator. I ap- 
pear this morning to represent him in the event he did not return. As 
you know, and as Mr. Burling knows, he has been in Florida, We 
were hopeful that he would return this morning. However, I assume 
he is not back to town yet. 

The Chairman. You, apparently, are prepared to be here in his 
stead ? 

Mr. Walker. In the event he did not. 

The Chairman. When were you advised there was some doubt as 
to his appearance ? 

Mr. Walker. I have not been advised — there was some doubt yes- 
terday. 

The Chairman. What knowledge do you have as to his efforts to 
be here ? 

Mr. Walker. I have no knowledge of that. Senator. I assume he 
did everything in his power to get here. 

The Chairman. Apparently you prepared yourself so as to be on 
hand if he were not here. 

Mr. Walker. I prepared material for him to use, Senator. In his 
absence, if it is agreeable with the committee, I will use it. 

The Chairman. Can you throw no more light on the question as to 
why he is not here? 

Mr. Walker, I regret I cannot. Senator, 

The Chairman, All right. Counsel may proceed, 

Mr, Burling, I think in fairness to this witness, it should be said, 
Mr, Chairman, that he and I discussed the subject matter which Mr. 
Bugas would talk about. I think he was preparing some figures for 
Mr, Bugas' use. However, I wish to say again, Mr, Bugas agreed 
with me to be here. I did know he was going to Florida but he prom- 
ised to come back from his vacation in order to testify. 



ORGANIZED CRIME^ IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 203 

Mr. Walker, the committee is particularly interested at this time 
in the problem of in-plant gambling. By that we mean large-scale 
gambling that goes on inside plants. The committee staff has selected 
the River Rouge plant to make a study, for only one reason, and we 
want to be entirely fair to the Ford Motor Co. The sole reason that 
the Rouge plant has been selected to study is the fact that it is the 
largest plant in Detroit and, we believe, in the World, the largest 
single plant enclosed by a single fence. It is just a coincidence, or 
happenstance that the largest plant happens to be a Ford plant. 

We have examined the largest single plant of General Motors and 
the largest Chrysler plant. We have no reason to believe, after a 
staff study, that there is more gambling per capita at the Rouge plant 
than elsewhere. We suppose, and it is a reasonable presupposition, 
that there is more gambling at the Rouge plant than elsewhere, be- 
cause there are more men to gamble there. We are selecting the 
Rouge plant not as a glaring example, but as a test tube for us to 
experiment with to study the gambling situation throughout this 
area. 

Now, will you proceed to make such statement as you wish con- 
cerning the forms of in-plant gambling, what the Ford Motor Co. 
thinks about it, and what it is doing about it, and what, if anything, 
can be done to better the situation. 

Mr. Walker. I will be glad to. 

I have been invited to appear before this committee as a representa- 
tive of the Ford Motor Co. for the purpose of relating the experience 
of our company in combating in-plant gambling among employees. 
We are glad to be able to assist in the committee's investigation and 
will, of course, cooperate in any manner possible. At the outset, 
however, I would like to establish for the record that : 

There is no evidence that in-plant gambling in Ford plants is more 
prevalent than in other industrial j)lants of comparable size and 
activity. 

Gambling on company property is a viplation of established policy. 
Employees found guilty of participating in such activities have and 
will be properly disciplined. 

We regard the enforcement of Federal, State, and local laws and 
ordinances, the responsibility primarily of constituted law-enforce- 
ment agencies. As a part of our community responsibility, however, 
we have and will fully cooperate with such agencies in the discharge 
of their responsibilities. 

An intelligent appraisal of gambling activities within industry 
cannot be made without an understanding of the problems involved. 
Using Ford Motor Co.'s Rouge plant as an example, it should be 
noted that 69,000 people of various skills and trades are currently 
employed in this plant. Within the plant's perimeter are 1,212 acres 
of land upon which are located blast furnaces, docks, assembly lines, 
machine shops, a glass plant, and coke ovens. There are complete 
railroad and bus systems and a large production foundry to which 
I will refer in greater detail later. Operations are carried on in 99 
buildings which provide in excess of 15,000,000 square feet of floor 
space containing over 120 miles of conveyors. For ease in transport- 
ing raw stock and finished units, 26 miles of roadways and 106 miles 
of railroad tracks have been constructed within the plan area. In 



204 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

addition, ly^ miles of docks have been constructed to handle water- 
borne shipments of raw material, including approximately 850,000 
tons of ore and 2,500,000 tons of coal during each shipping season. 
One hundred and twelve acres of land have been set aside as parking 
space for over 2'2,000 cars which are parked in the Rouge area daily 
by employees, vendors, outside contractors, and visitors. 

During a recent 24-hour period, a total of 49,000 vehicles, 148,000 
people, and 468 trains passed plant gates. An average of 210 persons 
per minute entered or left the plant through gate 4, one of the prin- 
cipal pedestrian gates, during the ship-change period from 2 : 45 to 
3 : 45 p. m. 

In the interest, Mr. Burling, of conserving time of the committee, 
I have considerable additional statistics which, if you like, I will not 
go into here. 

The Chairman. We will consider them all a part of the record. 

Mr. Walker. Yes. If I may say, Senator, I would like briefly to 
touch upon our Dearborn foundry which is one of our problems. 

I would like now to briefly describe for you the facilities and lay- 
out of our iron foundry which we have found to be a principal location 
of gambling activities, 

Mr. Burling. May I interrupt you? Is the foundry the largest 
single building or plant unit within the Rouge area ? 

Mr. Walker. It is, within that particular area, and I have the 
statistics in here. 

The iron foundry, employing over 10,000 production employees, 
contains an area of nearly 1,000,000 square feet of floor space. It is 
located immediately adjacent to the casting-machine plant which is 
1,200 feel long and 190 feet wide. Since the foundry and casting- 
machine plant are constructed under one roof, employees working in 
the foundry have relatively free access to the casting-machine plant 
which borders Miller Road, a public thoroughfare. This, in itself, 
presents a problem since employees from both plants have been appre- 
hended in the act of passing mutuel betting slips to pick-up men stand- 
ing on Miller Road. 

The physical construction of the Dearborn iron founclry provides 
numerous areas where gambling activities may be carried forward 
with little chance of detection by supervisory or guard personnel. For 
example : 

Twelve 280-foot tunnels used in removing refuse sand from manu- 
facturing operations provide excellent concealment and allow easy 
access to all parts of the building. 

Starter houses containing switches, brakes, and other electrical 
equipment necessary to operate conveyor lines provide good conceal- 
ment because of the peculiar nature of their construction and their 
relatively isolated location. 

Observation of employees working on the balcony is difficult because 
sections of the balcony floor are necessarily constructed at different 
levels. Separate stairways are provided for each elevation. 

Twenty enclosures erected on the roofs of both the Dearborn iron 
foundry and the casting machine plant, for cooling castings, afford 
excellent concealment for gambling activities. These enclosures are 
approximately 45 feet high and range in width from 20 to 40 feet. 

Stock such as motor blocks and castinas in storage areas provide 
excellent places for concealment of gambling activities. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 205 

Company and outside trucks delivering alloy, stock, and other 
material to the foundry provide an excellent opportunity for the trans- 
portation of mutuel betting slips. 

Miscellaneous locations such as tool cribs, lunchrooms, locker rooms, 
and toilets provide opportunities for employees to gather in groups 
where gambling activities may be conducted without creating sus- 
picion. 

It is obvious that any combination of these factors reduces consider- 
ably the opjDortunity of plant guards and members of supervision to 
eliminate gambling activities in this area. 

Plant guard personnel, since they are not public law enforcement 
officers, do not possess powers of arrest greater than that which is 
afforded a private citizen. Employees suspected or known to be 
engaged in gambling activities cannot be arrested on the spot, thereby 
providing ample opportunity for the destruction of e\ddence. 

Under the provision of our present contract Vvith the UAW (CIO), 
plant guards are required to be identified as such through the use of 
distinguishable uniforms or other identifiable insignia. It is readily 
apparent that the observation of a guard in uniform quickly results 
in the discontinuance of gambling activities. 

Although the national leadership of the UAW (CIO) has stated 
its opposition to employee gambling, union representatives at 'the 
working level have, on occasion, impeded the proper enforcement 
of antigambling regulations. This interference has been evidenced 
in the form of vehement protests upon the apprehension of a gam- 
bling employee; insistence that they participate in the interrogation 
of the employee; advice to the employee to make no incriminating 
statement, and the filing of grievances alleging violations of the 
contract. 

Under the grievance machinery established by our contract with 
the UAW, disciplinary action imposed as the result of infractions of 
working rules and regulations may be reviewed by an impartial um- 
pire retained by the company and union. Evidence of such infractions 
must therefore be conclusive as to guilt. Guilt having been properly 
established, disciplinary action imposed must be justified as to reason- 
ableness. 

Apprehensions of gambling employees indicate that mutuel num- 
bers betting ranks first in frequency. While dice games and book- 
making are observed on occasions, numbers playing has the greatest 
popular appeal among employees largely because of the facts that 
small amounts of money can be bet and the returns from a "hit" are 
lucrative. 

I regret that we have no figures upon which an accurate estimate 
of the extent of gambling in our plants can be based. Wliile we do 
maintain statistics regarding the number of apprehensions, disciplin- 
ary actions, and prosecutions, these figures do not, unfortunately, give 
any indication of the total number of employees or dollar volume 
involved. I am aware that various estimates of the extent of gam- 
bling have been made by persons not employed by the Ford Motor Co. 
An examination of these estimates reveals that they were based upon 
certain assumptions which cannot e substantiated in fact. 

I would like next to relate to you briefly what steps we have taken 
to control in-plant gambling. I shall again use our Rouge plant as 

68958— 51— pt. 9 14 



206 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

an example, since it is our largest plant, having the greatest con- 
centration of employees. 

1. Through the media of plant newspapers, employee news letters, 
management meetings, and employee handbooks, we have publicized 
company policy prohibiting gambling. 

2. Through the medium of organized training sessions, we have 
emphasized to both plant guards as well as supervisory personnel their 
responsibilities in enforcing antigambling regulations. 

3. Plant-protection supervisors are required to regularly spot-check 
areas where it appears likely that gambling may occur in order to 
insure that guards remain vigilant to this problem. 

4. Guard and investigative personnel have been assigned to work 
independent of and in cooperation with local police officers in the 
apprehension and interrogation of employees believed to be engaged 
in gambling activities. 

5. Local police officers have been permitted unrestricted access to 
all areas of the plant in order that they may further check upon 
gambling activities. 

6. Information relating to the identity or activities of outside 
gambling operators obtained during the course of our investigations 
has been made available promptly to interested police departments. 

As a result of this activity during the year 1948, disciplinary action, 
including suspensions without pay and discharges, was imposed upon 
167 employees in the Rouge plant. Of these, 55 were prosecuted and 
convicted by local courts. During the year 1949, 145 employees were 
disciplined, 57 of whom were prosecuted and 55 were convicted. 
During the year 1950, 144 employees were disciplined, 42 of whom 
were prosecuted and 41 were convicted. 

We believe that these figures are not necessarily indicative of the 
effectiveness of our efforts, since the deterring effects of a continuing 
enforcement campaign cannot properly be measured in terms of dis- 
charges or convictions. 

You will note, Mr. Chairman, that I have given, in considerable de- 
tail, a description of physical and organizational difficulties, many of 
which undoubtedly are experienced by any large industrial employer 
in enforcing antigambling regulations. You have also been furnished 
statistics with regard to gambling within the Eouge plant of our 
company. I should like, at this point, to make it unmistakably clear 
that by doing so we do not infer or believe that substantial numbers 
of our employees are engaged in this or other unlawful activities. 

Certain conclusions which may be of interest to the committee may 
be drawn from our experience. 

The problem of in-plant gambling cannot be separated from moral, 
economic, and legal implications of gambling in the community at 
large. Industrial employment, with its large concentration of people, 
merely provides the opportunity and the association to do that which 
the individual is motivated to do. If he is motivated to gamble, the 
time and the place are of relative unimportance. 

The apprehension and proper disciplining of a gambling employee, 
while serving a useful deterring effect, is not a complete solution to the 
problem. Discharged numbers writers and "pickup" men may im- 
mediately be replaced by other employees for the same purpoS'P. 
While the "privates" of the activity may be punished, the "generals" 
never enter company property. 



ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 207 

The courts must be empowered and public opinion must demand 
tliat convicted principals in organized gambling not be fined and 
placed upon probation but be imprisoned in relation to the nature of 
their offenses. 

The Chairman. Mr. Walker, just one question suggests itself to me. 
You have, of course, in the statement referred to the one trend as the 
principal location of gambling activities ; and, while you indicate that 
you cannot state with certainty the amount of money that figures in 
gambling, annually, can you not give us some approximation? 

Mr. Walker. I made that statement. Senator, with regard to the 
frequency of gambling cases in that particular area. We could give 
you those figures, but I regret I don't have them broken down in that 
way now. We could give them to you. 

The Chairman. Can't you just give us an estimate as to money? 

Mr. Walker. I think 1 covered that in my statement. I'm sorry, 
I can't, Senator. 

The Chairman. Some calculation has been made to the effect that 
it might approximate about $15,000,000. Would that, in your opinion, 
be a fair estimate ? 

Mr. Walker. We have had approximations from $1,000,000 to $100,- 
000,000, Senator, and we feel that we are in the best position to evalu- 
ate that. On each of those estimates which we have had, we have 
tried to evaluate them, and have never been successful. 

The Chairman. That is a very important phase of the matter, be- 
cause, in order to understand the seriousness of the problem and what 
is necessary to cope with it, we do wish to have some specific informa- 
tion as to the amount of money figuring in, because that, of course, 
does bear upon the entire problem. 

Mr. Walker. It certainly does. I might like to explain, if I may, 
the experience that we have had with some of those estimates. 

In checking back to determine upon what bases they were prepared, 
we find that the usual practice has been to assume that perhaps 1 
employee out of 10 is gambling. If you have a total employment of 
100,000, then one out of each ten of those must be gambling. They 
have also assumed that each employee would play on an average of 
a nickel or a dime a day ; so they multiplied the total number by the 
estimated amount of play each day and they come up with a total. 
The seriousness of this thing, I think, is of such a nature that we 
shouldn't speculate on it. 

The Chairman. Yes. We shouldn't speculate; but, Mr. Walker, 
we have to do what you do and your other officials of the company do 
with respect to any matters in cost analysis. For example, if rack- 
eteers are draining off, as they unquestionably are, large sums of 
money from your plant and from other plants, that draining and that 
amount which they are illegally taking off unquestionably plays a part 
in the cost of the product, in the salaries of the men and in the ultimate 
bill which the general public must pay. So that it is, of course, a 
very important phase. 

i\Ir. Walker. Exactly. I certainly agree with you, Senator. We 
would like very much to know, andl would be most happy to give 
it to you. I certainly don't mean to appear evasive. We will be 
very glad to give it to you if it was available. 

The Chairman. It helps the public in so many different wavs. 
Not only is it directly reflected in the cost of the product, but it has 



208 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

to do, of course, with the cost of surveillance and protection and of 
police and of courts and everything else, and that is why the estimate 
was figured, and I understand that several have agreed that it would 
probably be at least $15,000,000, maybe in excess of that. 

Mr. Walker. I have no means of knowing whether that is right 
or wrong. I would suspect, based upon the previous estimates that 
we have had, that it is considerably exaggerated, Senator. 

The Chairman. But you do, of course, indicate that there are 
several different types of gambling. The numbers, you place first. 
You have dice second, and bookmaking third. 

Mr. Walker. By far, yes. 

The Chairman. So that you do have some detailed information^ 
because you classify them in that manner. 

Mr. Walker. Yes, and those are based upon the apprehensions 
which I have just given to you. Senator. Based upon those appre- 
hensions, numbers do play, by far, the greater part of gambling 
activity. 

Mr. Burling. You said that your estimates ran from $1,000,000 to 
$100,000,000? 

Mr. Walker. I say that those are the estimates which we hr.ve had, 
Mr. Burling, in newspapers, magazine articles, and elsewhere, 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, nobody has ever estimated less than 
$1,000,000? 

Mr. Walker. Not that I am aware of ; I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. If we took an average of estimates, we come right 
around $50,000,000? 

Mr. Walker. Well, that is pretty reckless treatment of statistics. I 
wouldn't care to do that. 

The Chairman. Mr. Walker, judging by the number of arrests that 
have been made, we, of course, might assume they were not the entire 
number of gamblers — they did not represent all the gambling activi- 
ties, because some unquestionably evaded or escaped arrest. 

Mr. Walker. Absolutely. 

The Chairman. There appears to be considerable gambling activity. 
That is true; is it? 

Mr. Walker. I would say in relation to those figures that it is 
relatively small, sir. I mean, a comparison with 69,000 people. But, 
by the same token, I certainly would, at the same time, want to indi- 
cate that that is all the gambling that we have. 

The Chairman. That is right. 

Mr. Walker. Because our enforcement campaign isn't that effective. 
It couldn't be. 

The Chairman. And, of course, in addition to the other byproducts 
and offshoots of gambling, where, in addition to, of course, the racke- 
teers draining off so much, unquestionably it does affect the efficiency 
of the worker, the time given. 

Mr. Walker. I think it does, although, at the same time, I think 
possibly that, too, has been exaggerated. I have the same feeling. 

However, some of our production people, on the contrary, feel that, 
at times, it provides an outlet for the employee, not necessarily on 
company time but lunch periods. We don't excuse that from the 
moral viewpoint, of course, but there is that argument that it provides 
an outlet. So, to that extent, perhaps, it isn't an interference with 
production. My view, of course, is that it is. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 209 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Walker, we all understand that with the 
attention being devoted to bookmaking and to numbers, a person's 
mind may not be on his work all the time. 

Mr. Walker. I think that is true. 

Mr. Burling. One thing that the staff has heard in discussing this 
problem with various people, is that union officials are exceptionally — 
that is, on the working level — are exceptionally likely to be solicited 
as numbers runners, because they are free to move throughout the 
plant. 

Mr. Walker. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Will you tell us about the badge system? Is an 
ordinary worker free to move around the plant, or is the Rouge 
plant subdivided by inner fences which require different classes of 
badges ? 

Mr. Walker. Generally speaking, Mr. Burling, an employee within 
the Rouge plant would have relatively free access to any area of the 
plant. The exception that I have in mind, as an example, is the 
result of the recent emergency. We are restricting some highly stra- 
tegic areas such as our power plant. An employee would not neces- 
sarily have free access there. But generally speaking throughout the 
plant, an employee would have free access to it. 

Mr. Burling. So that the only thing that controls the movement 
of an employee around the plant is supervision ? 

Mr. Walker. Tliat is right, and also a check by the plant guard 
which, because of the lay-out of the plant, is relatively ineffective for 
that purpose. 

Mr. Burling. And you do not have a picture badge ? 

Mr. Walker. We do not have a picture badge at the present time ; 
no. 

Mr. Burling. It would be relatively simple, would it not, to find, 
if I wished, a Ford Co. badge and enter your plant tomorrow morning 
at shift time ? 

Mr. Walker, Unfortunately, Mr. Burling, that is true, because 
the badges we now have, have been in use for some time. As I in- 
dicated to you in our personal discussions, we are giving serious 
thought to changing our badge, but in direct answer to your question, 
I feel sure you could get a badge if you tried. 

Mr. Burling. Now, you discussed the effect on Ford of this gam- 
bling situation, and we are going to hear from a representative of the 
UAW, but I wonder if you would be willing to state your opinion of 
what effect, if any, on the union and on union relations this gambling 
problem has, 

Mr. Walker. I don't know that I would be prepared or qualified 
to speak with regard to the effect which it would have upon the union. 
I feel that we all agree that gambling, from a moral sense and also 
from our viewpoint as an employer, is an extremely undesirable thing. 
It also seems to me that gambling, if it were to be carried to the ex- 
treme — and we have no knowledge that it is, among union representa- 
tives — and I would like to make it clear, so far as our own experience 
is concerned, we have no information along those lines — but if it 
were, assuming that it were, it seems to me that it could be very in- 
jurious to the organization. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Walker. W^e are very much obliged 
to you. Thank you. 

(Witness excused,) 



210 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Chief Ralph B. Guy. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God ? 

Mr. Guy. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF RALPH B. GUY, CHIEF OF POLICE, DEARBORN, 

MICH. 

The Chairman. Now, your full name, please ? 

Mr. Gut. Ralph B. Guy. 

The Chairman. Mr. Guy, what is your present position? 

Mr. Guy. Chief of police of the city of Dearborn. 

The Chairman. And for what period have you been chief of police? 

Mr. Guy. A little over 3 years. 

The Chairman. How long have you been engaged in police work? 

Mr. Guy. A little over 3 years. I practiced law for IT years prior 
to that. 

The Chairman. You are a member of the bar ? 

Mr. Guy. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you practiced for 17 years prior to becoming 
the chief ? 

Mr. Guy. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right, fine, sir. I would be so much obliged tO' 
you if you would keep your voice up in the very same fine manner as 
you have thus far, and answer the questions. Thank you. 

Counsel, will you proceed ? 

Mr. Burling. Chief, do you know a man named Edward Hester? 

Mr. Guy. I do. 

Mr. Burling. When did he first come to your attention? 

Mr. Guy. He first came to my attention about May or June of 1948. 

Mr. Burling. And will you tell us the circumstances of that, please ? 

Mr. Guy. I first met him in my office when he came in with a Lieu- 
tenant Mele, heading our vice squad. 

Mr. Burling. Will you tell us what happened at that time ? Wlio 
said what? 

Mr. Guy. He asked Lieutenant Mele if he could see me, and Lieu- 
tenant Mele said, "Why certainly." So he brought him in and we 
discussed the rackets, mutuels 

Mr. Burling. We are very much interested in this, and we would 
like the most detailed statement that you can give us. Of course, you 
can't recall every word, but try to tell us what Hester said to you. 

Mr. Guy. Well, Hester was interested in having a monopoly on the 
mutuels at the Ford Motor Co. Rouge plant, in tlie city of Dearborn. 

Mr. Burling. I see. What did he say about it ? 

Mr. Guy. And he said that there was lots of money down there. 

Mr. Burling. Did he give you an approximation of how much 
money he thought there was ? 

Mr. Guy. He said it ought to be worth at least from two to five 
thousand dollars for me every month. 

Mr. Burling. For you ? 

Mr. Guy. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. As chief of police ? 

Mr. Guy. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 211 

Mr. BuKLiNG. Did he say how much money there was in all in the 
take from numbers ? 

Mr. Guy. He just said there was lots of money. 

Mr. Burling. He didn't give you a figure ? 

Mr. Guy. He had a big smile on his face when he said it. 

Mr. Burling. All right. Will you go on and tell us what you 
said and what he said, please? 

Mr. Guy. He said that he would go and talk to the boys that headed 
the houses that were operating down there. 

Mr. Burling, Did he tell you who they were ? 

Mr. Guy. No ; he did not. 

Mr. Burling. Did you know who were the top heads of the houses 
that operate at Kouge ? 

Mr. Guy. No, sir ; I did not. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever been able to find out who is the top 
of the numbers houses ? 

Mr. Guy. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. It can't be done by ordinary police methods ; is that 
right ? 

Mr. Guy. This is what we were attempting to do through Hester, 
but the case blew up before we could get that far. 

Mr. Burling. Will you go on and tell us the story, please? 

Mr. Guy. After that, we talked about the salaries down there, how 
much the men were making, and about the Joe Louis fight. He was 
in my office about 10 minutes and left. He said he would see me 
later, after he saw the boys. 

Mr. Burling. And your purpose in not throwing him out when 
he offered you two to five thousand dollars a month was that you 
wanted to play along with him to see where that would lead to; is 
that right? 

Mr. Guy. We certainly did. 

Mr. Burling. What happened next ? 

Mr. Guy. If I may, previous to his coming to my office, I would 
like to say what happened with Lieutenant Mele of our vice squad. 

Mr. Burling. We want to get the full story. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. Chief. 

Mr. Guy. Edward Hester was a comitteeman for the foundry of 
local 600, and he could come and go as he pleased and had free access 
to the building or buildings throughout the plant. Every time a man 
was taken to Labor Relations from the foundry, Hester would come 
in and represent him. Upon one of those occasions, he gave Mr. 
Howartha, who was with Labor Relations there, a list of seven men 
that he said were pick-up men and writers in the foundry. 

Mr. Burling. Excuse me. We know, but the rest of the public 
doesnt' know what pick-up men and writers are. Will you explain 
that? 

Mr. Guy. Writers are the men that contact the bettor and make 
arrangements for the size of bet and what races they are going to bet, 
and what numbers they are going to bet. They gather those and then 
the pick-up men take the numbers from the writers and pass them on 
to the house. 

Mr. Burling. They also pass money, too ; do they not ? 

Mr. Guy. Well, not at the same time. 



212 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

JNIr. Burling. The idea is that one man will take the money out 
and if he is arrested, there is no proof he is associated with numbers 
and maybe it is his money? 

Mr. Guy. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Another man is arrested and there is no proof it is a 
betting operation because all there are are slips but there is no money ? 

Mr. Guy. That is right. The writer, all he has is slips and another 
man will collect the money or the writer will collect the money as he 
has disposed of his slips. Now, he gave these names to Mr. Howartha. 
Mr. Howartha passed them on to Lieutenant Mele. The following day 
we arrested those people. 

Mr. Burling. Hester, who was also a numbers man, turned in other 
operators' numbers men; is that right? 

Mr. Guy. That is right, and we arrested them the following day. 
The night of the arrest Hester called Lieutenant Mele and asked him 
if he could meet him and he met with Hester, and Hester wanted to 
know if he could put one of the men back to work, and Lieutenant Mele 
said, "I think we can." So, in pursuance to that, one of the men was 
put back to work. Well the day following his going back to work, 
Hester left an envelope containing a $100 bill with Mr. Howartha in 
Labor Relations, saying that it was for Lieutenant Mele. Lieutenant 
Mele picked up the envelope, I think not the day after but the follow- 
ing day, inasmuch as he wasn't down there the following day. The 
second day he picked up the $100 bill and immediately came to my 
office with it, and we decided to play along with Hester and see if we 
couldn't get the big boys. That night Hester called Mele at his house 
and asked him what he'd want to give him protection down there and 
Mele says, "What would I want ? I have got a boss." He said, "I don't 
know." He said, "I couldn't do it." Well he said, "What kmd of a 
fellow is your boss?" And Lieutenant Mele said, "He is a good Joe." 
So this all preceded Hester coming to my office. 

Well, now, after Hester left my office, he said he'd see me on a later 
date. It wasn't until about a month later that he called me about 4 
o'clock in the afternoon and asked if he could see me. I said "Yes," and 
about 5 :10 he came into my office. I suspected that perhaps by this 
time he would have collected some of that money that he was going to 
collect for me and so I put a detective behind a steel cabinet— clothes 
cabinet — in my office 

The Chairman. In a position to overhear anything said ? 

Mr. Guy. About 10 feet from where Mr. Hester was sitting and 
about the same from where I was sitting. Mr. Hester came in and 
he said that he had had trouble seeing some of the boys, but he did 
see the fellow at the Beason House and said he had $100 for me. With 
that he pulled out 10 $10 bills and passed it over to me, and then I 
opened mj key and asked my secretary to bring in some papers. 
With that a couple of detectives came in. 

]Mr. Burling. At a prearranged signal ? 

Mr. Guy. Yes; it was. And I had the $10 bills in my hand. I 
said to Hester in the presence of the detectives, "You just gave me 
this money?" He said, "Yes; I did." and I obtained a warrant for 
his arrest the following morning. This was about 5 o'clock and the 
courts were closed and he was arraigned on that warrant. Two weeks 
later he had an examination on that warrant. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMJMERCE 213 

The Chairjian. Wliat was the day of that arraig:nment ? 

Mr. Guy. The arraignment was on July 2, 1948. Hester was 
arraigned on a warrant. 

The Chairman. And the charge ? 

Mr. Guy. The charge of attempted bribery of a public official. 
Upon the examination he was bound over to the circuit court for trial. 
On July 30, 1948, the Dearborn municipal court made its return to 
the circuit court. 

Mr. Burling. What did it return to the circuit court ? 

Mr. Guy. It returned its findings on the examination binding him 
over for trial on a felony to circuit court. 

Mr. Burling. That is the equivalent of an indictment, is it ? I am 
not familiar with Michigan law. 

Mr. Guy. It is. It is the equivalent to an indictment, and on 
December 20, 1948, an information was filed on Edward Hester. On 
December 27, 1948, Hester was arraigned on an information and plead 
not guilty. On November 18, 1950, over 2 years later, the case was 
brought on for trial and on that date, on the trial date, the attorney 
for Mr. Hester filed a motion to quash the information, and the prose- 
cutors office agreed that the motion was in order, and that went be- 
fore the presiding judge and asked that the case be nol-prossed, and I 
appeared thei-e, too, and objected to it being nol-prossed. It was the 
prosecutor's contention that we hadn't proven venue in the examina- 
tion. I contended that we had and I told the court so. However, the 
judge said, "Well, I can't force the prosecutor to go ahead with the 
case, that he doesn't feel that he has a case." 

The Chairman. In other words, Chief, after the indictment was 
allowed to lie dormant for approximately 2 years, when it came up 
last November, just 3 months ago, it was marked for trial and you 
went there expecting that it would be tried? 

Mr. Guy. We did, with all of our witnesses. 

The Chairman. A motion to quash was filed by the attorney for 
Hester? 

Mr. Guy. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Was any notice given to you in advance? 

Mr. Guy. No, sir; I never knew. 

The Chairman. Had you consulted with the prosecutor in his prepa- 
ration for the case ? 

Mr. Guy. Just the telephone call. 

The Chairman. Had there been any effort made by the prosecuting 
attorney to work up the case to get all the information that was in 
your possession so he would be able to present fully the facts and 
circumstances? 

Mr. Guy. No, sir. 

The Chairman. So that when the motion to quash was filed, the 
prosecutor agreed to enter a nolle pros? 

Mr. Guy. He did on the prosecutor's own motion. 

The Chairman. Wliich is, of course, a legal motion which wipes out 
tLe indictment in full as though it had never been brought? 

Mr. Guy. It dismisses the case entirely. 

The Chairman. Now, were you consulted by him before he entered 
the nolle pros or to get the Latin term, the nolle prosequi ? 



214 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Guy. Yes, I was. I argued with him for 1 day to try to get it 
to go to trial and let the trial judge decide whether or not the exam- 
ination 

The Chairman. Was any explanation given by him as to why he 
felt that it was impossible to proceed other than the question of 
venue ? 

Mr. Guy. That was the only question, the question of venue. 

The Chairman. Did he explain why that question alone was brought 
up after 2 years, why he could not have found that out 2 years before ? 

Mr. Guy. He did not. As a matter of fact, they should have found 
it out when they filed the information, because they read the examina- 
tion and based the information on the transcript of the examination. 

The Chairman. Of course, the question of venue would apply to the 
jurisdictional right and could have been ascertained at the very 
outset ? J 

Mr. Guy. It certainly could have. 

Mr. Burling. You are an attorney, yourself? ' 

Mr. Guy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Are you a member of the Michigan bar? 

Mr. Guy. I am. 

Mr. Burling. Will you try to explain to me why there was not 
venue in this case? What was the technical aspect of it? 

Mr. Guy. Apparently we hadn't said in our examination that this 
all happened in the city of Dearborn, county of Wayne, State of 
Michigan, United States, and so forth; but we had testified that it 
happened in the chief of police's office and in the city of Dearborn 
and had testified I was the chief of police, city of Dearborn, and I 
felt that was sufficient. 

Mr. Burling. Is there any doubt that the city of Dearborn is in the 
county of Wayne and State of Michigan ? 

Mr. Guy. I don't see how there could be. 

Mr. Burling. Did the prosecutor ask the court to take judicial notice 
of where the city of Dearborn is located ? 

Mr. Guy. He did not. 

Mr. Burling. That is all you know about the Hester bribery case ? 

Mr. Guy. Well, the day that was nolle prossed, I went out to the 
municipal court and obtained another warrant for him. It took us a 
week to 10 days to find him. We finally arrested him and brought 
him into the municipal court on January 3 — no, about November 22 — 
and another warrant was obtained about 10 days later. That would 
bring it into about December, and it was set for examination. 

On the morning of the examination, Hester waived examination. 
Then he was automatically bound over to the circuit court for the 
county of Wayne for trial. 

The municipal court of Dearborn filed its return on January 3, 1951. 
On January 19, 1951, an information was filed. On January 30, 1951, 
Hester's apparently was notified to appear to plead to the information, 
and at this time he comes in and asks that the case be remanded to our 
court for an examination, which it was. It was remanded back to the 
Dearborn court on January 30 for an examination, and I haven't 
heard when the examination is going to be or anything else. 

The Chairman. You are just about where you started? 

Mr. Guy. Back right where we started. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 215 

Mr. Burling. Now, leaving these technicalities in the laws, such 
as where the city of Dearborn is, and just considering the facts, is it 
your opinion as a lawyer and as a chief of police that the factual 
evidence in this case makes it open and shut, that is, makes it an 
open and shut case ? 

Mr. Guy. I don't see how we could have a better case when the man 
behind the cabinet heard the entire conversation, saw the money, and 
the detectives came in immediately after — 1, 2 seconds after he gave 
it to me. And I asked Hester, "Is this the money you gave me?" 
And he said, "Yes, it is." 

The Chairman. Chief, it so happens, I had been a prosecuting at- 
torney myself for 12 or 13 years in a city just about this size or next 
to it in order, and that certainly appears to have been an airtight case, 
and without of course attempting to state what should happen in a 
pending matter, it does appear that you did act very dutifully and 
very efficiently, and procured evidence which ought to stand up and 
which should require prosecution in a very important matter. 

Mr. Burling. Now, Chief, I want to ask you a few general questions 
about gambling. We realize this is a matter of opinion, and after 
all, you are in a position to hear a good many things. But, can you 
tell us anything of what you know, what impression you have formed 
about the prevalence of gambling in the Rouge plant ? 

Mr. Gut. Well, shortly after I became chief of police, a gentleman 
came to my office that worked in the foundry and he said that gam- 
bling was so prevalent down there no one was doing any work. 

Mr. Burling. You heard Mr. Walker testify, I believe? 

Mr. Guy. I did. 

Mr. Burling. And you learned that we were interested in trying 
to get some approximation of the take-out in dollars. Have you ever 
endeavored to make an estimate of the annual take-out, or have you 
ever heard an estimate ? 

Mr. Guy. Well, Mr. Walker based in his statistics — he gave the 
basis that they bet something like 10 or 15 cents. It is true that now 
the betting has dropped. I would say that the average bet today is 
probably 25 cents or a little more. But in 1918, we picked up slips 
with $1, $2, $3, and $5 betting on numbers. There are very few under 
a dollar, as a matter of fact. We had several hundred of them. 

The Chairman. That would indicate that the sum total of the bet- 
ting was very, very much higher than even our estimates have gone? 

Mr. Guy. That 'is right. 

The Chairman. But would you say it would be fair to estimate it 
between 50 million and 100 million dollars? 

Mr. Guy. I haven't actually figured it out, but I would say it would 
run into millions of dollars and millions of hours time lost in the 
plant. 

Mr. Burling. Is there any relationship, in your opinion — I don't 
in the least mean to attack the union, but it is a problem — between 
the UAW officials at the lower level in gambling? 

Mr. Guy. Well, of course, when a man has a job like Hester had as 
committeeman, it affords him the opportunity of visiting with every- 
one. It certainly gives him an oportunity of going through the fac- 
tory and he has no specific job to do. 

Mr. Burling. In other words, a committeeman can move around 
without having a supervisor or foreman watching what he is doing ? 



216 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Guy. I would say so. 

Mr. Burling. So, he is free to go around and pick up or write 
numbers ? 

Mr. Guy. He is. 

Mr. Burling. And an ordinary worker can't go out tlirough the 
gate except at shift time without a permit; is that right '^ 

Mr. Guy. Well that was so years ago, but I think now that they 
all mill around in there just about as they please. It appears that 
way to me. It appears to me that they do, 

Mr. Burling. I mean go in and out the perimeter gate. 

Mr. Guy. There are lots of men going in and out of there almost 
all hours of the day, not only at shift time, but all hours of the day. 

Mr. Burling. So there had been no trick to getting money out and 
the numbers out ? 

Mr. Guy. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Burling. Now, the committee has previously been told here 
and in other cities that numbers houses operate on a kind of hierarchy 
principle, that there is a private, the writer, and then the pick-up 
man, and then it goes up finally to some top man or group of men. 
Would you agree with that? 

Mr. Guy. I would. 

Mr. Burling. And the committee has also been told that when the 
writers or pick-up men are arrested and given a fine, the top people 
pay the fine for them and regard that as a cost of operation. Would 
you agree with that? 

Mr. Guy. They not only pay the fine, but they also have attorneys. 
The man when picked up doesn't even know who his attorney is. 
They send an attorney out there to take care of him and pay his fine 
and the man we pick up doesn't even know about it. 

I would like to make this statement. When I first came on the 
police department the average fine was somewhere between $25 and 
$50. Now we have those fines up to all the wa}^ from $100 to $500, 
and we are trying to get our judges to put these men in jail, and then 
it will be a different story. 

Mr. Burling. Now, Chief, if we assume — I can't prove it because 
I don't know what Mr. Licavoli's business is, since he didn't feel 
like telling us — that Mr. Licavoli is at the top of either all the numbers 
houses here or one of the numbers houses, and he has got money 
enough to pay these fines, the writer or pick-up man doesn't much care 
whether he is arrested at all, does he? 

Mr. Guy. Only now he is afraid of losing his job. But they usually 
get men who haven't been in trouble. If a man has been in trouble 
they probably wouldn't use him as a writer, or someone that is apt to be 
apprehended. 

Mr. Burling. Is it your opinion that if the privates in the operation 
and the sergeants in the operation got a penalty which would hurt 
them, that is to say a jail sentence, then maybe you could do something 
more effective? 

Mr. Guy. I think gambling would stop in short order. 

The Chairman. All right, Chief, we certainly want to take this 
occasion to say that you have impressed us as being a vigilant and 
a thorough, upright, and capable officer, and we think the community 
is fortunate in having a man of your kind and ability. 



ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 217 

Mr. Guy. Thank you very much. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Call Edward Hester. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. Hester. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD HESTER, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman, Will you state your name? 

Mr. Hester. Edward Hester. 

The Chairman. Where do you live ? 

Mr. Hester. 1511 St. Aubin. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived there ? 

Mr. Hester. For the last 15 years. 

The Chairman. Where were you born ? 

Mr. Hester. I was born in Durham, N. C. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived in the State of Michigan ? 

Mr. Hester. Since 1928. 

The Chairman. What work have you been doing? 

Mr. Hester. I worked at the Ford Motor Car Co. 

The Chairman. In what shop? 

]Mr. Hester. The Kouge foundry, production foundry. 

The Chairman. You may proceed. 

Mr. Burling. In the foundry ? 

Mr. Hester. Yes. 

Mr. BuRLiN.r^. When did you go to work there? 

Mr. Hester. January 2, 1935. 

Mr. Burling. When did you become a committeeman with the 
union? 

Mr. Hester. Around 1943 or 1944. 

Mr. Burling. What unit was it ? 

Mr. Hester. The production foundry unit. 

Mr. Burling. How many committeemen are there in the production 
foundry ? 

Mr. Hester. Well, I would say at least 32 or 33 at the time I was out 
there. 

Mr. Burling. How long did you stay at the Rouge plant? 

Mr. Hester. I worked for the Rouge plant until 1949. 
. Mr. Burling. Were you discharged at that time? 

Mr. Hester. No ; I came out on a leave and my leave expired while 
1 was absent. 
• Mr. Burling. What are you doing now ? 

]Mr. Hester. I am not doing anything now ; I am unemployed. 

Mr. Burling. You have been unemployed ever since you left Ford? 

Mr. Hester. Yes. 
' Mr. Burling. Were you ever in the numbers business? 
. Mr. Hester. I was in there once or twice. 

Mr. Burling. You mean vou have written one or two slips or what? 

Mr. Hester. I picked up for a while. 

Mr. Burling. When did you first pick up ? 

Mr. Hester. I guess I don't recall the date. I don't remember the 
exact date. It was around '46 or '47, somethino; around there. 



218 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. How long did you keep picking up at that time? 

Mr. Hester. Not very long. 

Mr. Burling. Well, how long ? 

Mr. Hester. About a month. 

Mr. Burling. About how much a day did you personally pick up ? 

Mr. Hester. I don't recall the exact amount. 

Mr. Burling. Was it $10 or $50? 

Mr. Hester. About $75 or $80. 

Mr. Burling. What house were you picking up for ? 

Mr. Hester. I don't know the house. I just met a fellow and gava 
him the slips. 

Mr. Burling. You picked up from writers ? 

Mr. Hester. No, just mostly my own stuff. 

Mr. Burling. You wrote and picked up yourself ? 

Mr. Hester. Mostly wrote my own stuff. 

Mr. Burling. You picked up from anybody else ? 

Mr. Hester. No. 

Mr. Burling. Who did you turn the money over to ? 

Mr. Hester. This fellow named Jack at that time. 

Mr. Burling. Jack who ? ! 

Mr. Hester. I don't know his last name. 

Mr. Burling. He hasn't a last name? 

Mr. Hester. I don't know his last name. 

Mr. Burling. Where did you turn it over to him ? 

Mr. Hester. I met him on the corner and gave it to him. 

Mr. BuRUNG. On the corner of what? 

Mr. Hester. Usually it would be on any designated corner, maybe 
John R. and Brush. 

Mr. Burling. Outside of the plant? 

Mr. Hester. Yes. I didn't do any business in the plant at all. 

Mr. Burling. You didn't? 

Mr. Hester. No. 

Mr. Burling. When did you do this writing to get the $75 or $80 
a day? 

Mr. Hester. That was out in the street. 

Mr. Burling. At the same time you were working in the plant ? 

Mr. Hester. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Are you sure you never picked up in the plant ? 

Mr. Hester. I am pretty sure I never picked up anything in the 
plant. i 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully request the witness to 
be admonished with respect to perjury. 

The Chairman. You realize, or course, that you are under oath and 
you have a right to refuse to answer any questions that may tend to 
incriminate you for certain offenses or an offense, but if you do answer 
you are required to answer truthfully. Do you understand that? 

Mr. Hester. Yes. 

The Chairman. In other words, any false statement made under 
oath of a matter material to this investigation can be the basis for a 
charge against you for perjury if you answer untruthfully. 

Mr. Hester. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. One of the corners you picked up on was John R. and 
Brush? 

Mr. Hester. John R. and Brush. 



ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 219 

Mr. Burling. Is that one of the corners you picked up on ? It is a 
simple question . Did you say that? 

Mr. Hester. I didn't mean John R. and Brush, I meant John R. or 
Brush. Both of those streets run one way. 

Mr. Burling. I was wonderinj^ if you managed to make parallel 
lines cross. Whether or not you picked up inside the foundry, in your 
capacity as a committeeman, you went around the foundry and saw 
what was going on there, is that right? 

Mr. Hester. Yes. I had knowledge what we had there. 

Mr. Burling. What can you tell us about the extent of gambling in 
the foundry? 

Mr. Hester. Well, I mean just like any other place or average shop. 

Mr. Burling. AVill you tell us about it ? 

Mr. Hester. Where you have a number of people employed, you 
have certain vices going on. 

Mr. Burling. That is what the committee wants to hear about. 
What is the extent of it? 

Mr. Hester. I couldn't place the exact figure because I had no com- 
mon knowledge of the exact figure. 

Mr. Burling. What is the best guess on your part of the amount 
that was bet daily on the numbers in the foundry when you were 
there? 

Mr. Hester. I couldn't give you a definite answer on that because 
we would have to be getting the business to determine the amount of 
business that was coming out of there. 

Mr. Burling. You walked around and saw things ? 

Mr. Hester. But I didn't see each individual bet. I know there was 
a wide range of betting in the shop but didn't know exactly the amount 
betted. 

Mr. Burling. I have never been to the foundry at all and I could 
give you a guess. What is your best estimate per day ? 

Mr. Hester. I would say $600 or $700 a day at a guess. 

Mr. Burling. That is not what you told Mr. Amis or myself, is it? 

Mr. Hester. He asked me on a plant- wide basis if I could estimate 
the take out there. 

Mr. Burling. You estimated that the plant as a whole took in $3,000 
or $4,000 a day. 

Mr. Hester. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. That is your best estimate. 

Mr. Hester. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. There are a lot of number writers in the foundry, are 
there not ? 

Mr. Hester. I imagine there are. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever leave an envelope for Lieutenant Mele 
or Meele ? 

Mr. Hester. Not that I recall. 

_ Mr. Burling. Did you ever leave a $100 bill in an envelope to be 
given to the lieutenant ? 

Mr. Hester. I don't think I should answer that because, you know, 
I have a case pending against me in Dearborn at the present time. 

Mr. Burling. It is not a Federal offense to try to bribe a State 
officer. 

Mr. Hester. Whatever I say on that particular case may incrimi- 
nate me. 



220 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. Not on a Federal offense. 

Mr. Hester. It will probably have a bearing on the outcome of that 
case which is still pending. 

Mr. Burling. It is not a Federal offense. I might say for the record, 
that it is perfectly clear you are guilty of that offense and you might 
as well come clean and tell us about it. 

Mr. Hester. I don't think I should. I pleaded innocent and the case 
is still pending. 

Mr. Burling. Your testimony against Chief Guy and three other 
detectives. When the money is available and you are quoted as com- 
mitting it — saying that you gave the money to Chief Guy. 

Mr. Hester. I didn't admit anything. 

Mr. Burling. Well, go through that and tell us about your contact 
with Chief Guy at the Dearborn police. 

Mr. Hester. I was introducecl to Chief Guy by Sergeant Mele. 

Mr. Burling. Is that the first time you met him? Why did you 
wish to see the chief ? 

Mr. Hester. The chief told Mele to bring me to him. 

Mr. Burling. AVliat did the chief say to you when you got there? 

Mr. Hester. It was going along the same line of questions that you 
are asking, the possibility of the numbers business in the plant. 

Mr. Burling. Did you not tell him that if you had the monopoly 
and that if he were to arrest everybody else writing out in the foundry, 
if you could have the monopoly, it would be worth $2,000 to $5,000 
a month to him ? 

Mr. Hester. I don't think I should answer that because that, too, 
will have a bearing on that particular case. 

Mr. Burling. If you do not answer, you will be in contempt of the 
United States Senate and then you will have two cases instead of one. 
You are in a predicament. 

Mr. Hester. Then I will have two cases against me. That will 
certainly have some effect on the case pending against me at the present 
time. 

Mr. Burling. The law is that you have the privilege not to answer 
a question which would tend to incriminate you of a Federal offense. 
Numbers writing is not a Federal offense. 

Mr. Hester. But I have a case here in the State of Michigan pend- 
ing against me now and if I answer any questions pertaining to that 
case, it will certainly have some effect on that case. 

Mr. Burling. It perhaps would but that is not the law. The 
Supreme Court of the United States has held that the privilege 
against self-incrimination in a Federal inquiry does not cover a State 
offense. So, Mr. Chairman, I request the witness be ordered to answer 
the question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. Do you 
still refuse to answer the question on the grounds that it will tend to 
incriminate you ? 

Mr. Hester. I think I should. 

Mr. Burling. You will not tell us about your conversation at all 
with Chief Guy? 

Mr. Hester. It would certainly have some effect on the case and 
outcome of tlie case. I can certainly see where if I have a jury trial 
and the jury reads my statement in 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 221 

Mr. Burling. Excuse me, perhaps you will let us practice the law. 
There is a section of the Federal Code which provides that testimony 
given to either House of the Congress of the United States or to a 
committee or subcommittee thereof may not be used in a subsequent 
prosecution with the exception if it is not here relevant. 

Mr. Hester. It would certainly prejudice the case to some degree 
if it ever came before the jury. 

Mr. Burling. I have just told you that it cannot come before the 
jury. There is a section of the Federal Code that so provides, 

Mr. Hester. You asked me if I wanted to answer that question, 
Senator, and that is it. 

The Chairman. That is why I directed you to answer the question. 
Do you still refuse to answer under those circumstances? 

Mr. Hester. I camiot get it clear. 

The Chairman. Are you represented by counsel ? 

Mr, Hester. No ; I am not. 

The Chairman. Who is your lawyer in the x^ending case? 

Mr, Hester. Harry Bockoff. 

Mr. Burling. ]\Ir. Chairman, I suggest we put this witness off the 
stand with instructions to come back with counsel at 2 o'clock. 

The Chairman. All right. Can you consult counsel in the mean- 
time? 

Mr. Hester, I will call him and try to get in touch with him. 

The Chairman. All right, we will call the next witness. 

The Chairman. Saul Glazer, take the stand. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. Glazer. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF SAUL A. GLAZER, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. What is your full name? 
Mr. Glazer. Saul A. Glazer. 
The Chairman. And your address? 
Mr. Glazer. 16150 LaSalle. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived there? 
Mr. Glazer. About 8 months. 
The Chairman. Where did you live before that ? 
Mr. Glazer. 229-4 Cortland. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived in the city of Detroit ? 
]\Ir. Glazer. About 22 years. 

The Chairman. All right. Will 3'ou keep your voice up and talk 
out loud ? 

Mr. Glazer. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Counsel, will you proceed? 

]\Ir. Burling. Where do you work? 

INIr. Glazer. I work at the Ford Motor Co., Rouge plant. 

Mr. Burling. How long have you worked there ? 

Mr. Glazer. Eighteen years. 

Mr. Burling. Were you at one time in the foundry? 

Mr. Glazer. I was, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Doing what ? 

68958— 51— pt. 9 15 



222 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Glazer, I was elevator oj)erator and a stock chaser during 
wartime. 

Mr. Burling. Have you had occasion to observe whether or not there 
is any gambling going on in the foundry ? 

Mr. Glazer. I do so ; very much so. 

Mr. Burling. Tell us briefly what the conditions were while you 
were working in the foundry. 

Mr. Glazer. Well, I was operating No. 3 elevator which is on No. 2 
battery in the production foundry across from the superintendent's 
office. In that position I was able to see a number of things. 

Mr. Burling. Tell us. We are interested only in gambling. 

Mr. Glazer. That is what I am referring to. 

Mr. Burling. All right. Tell us. 

Mr. Glazer. Well, I don't know how to begin. ' 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever see anybody writing any numbers? 

Mr. Glazer. I did, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Where, for example. 

Mr. Glazer. On the fourth floor of the building. That was one of 
the pet avenues for these men to congregate. 

Mr. Burling. Can you tell us whereabouts? 

Mr. Glazer. Around behind the cupolas, and up in the penthouses 
over the elevators. 

Mr. Burling. Would you have occasion to see men writing num- 
bers? 

Mr. Glazer. Definitely so. 

Mr. Burling. Did you have occasion to see money passed? 

Mr. Glazer. Definitely so. 

Mr. Burling. Would it be fair to say that numbers writing is virtu- 
ally wide open in the foundry ? 

Mr. Glazer. Very much so ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Did you ever bring this to the attention of the per- 
sonnel department? 

Mr. Glazer. I did, a number of times. 

Mr. Burling. And what happened ? 

Mr. Glazer. Well, it was just that I was sent from one official to 
another and I tried to contact Mr. Bugas. After that failed, after 
several occasions 

]Mr. Burling. You didn't get to see Mr. Bugas ? 

Mr. Glazer. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. All right. Wliat did you do then ? 

Mr. Glazer. I started to send a telegram to Mr. Ford. 

Mr. Burling. To Henry Ford II ? 

Mr. Glazer. Yes, 

Mr. Burling. What happened after that ? 

Mr. Glazer. After I sent the telegram, about 2 weeks after that, 
I came into work and there was a slip on my time card, "Report to the 
employment office immediately." When t went to the employment 
office, I was immediately taken into Mr. Tom Sylvester's office, who is 
the personnel manager. 

Mr. Burling. Just give us the conclusion. 

Mr. Glazer. Well, he said to me 

Mr. Burling. What happened ? Give us the conclusion. 
Mr. Glazer. He said to me, "The next telegram, the next letter, or 
tlie next phone call that you send to anyone of the Ford family, you 
will be discharged immediately." 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 223 

Mr. Burling. What happened to you ? 

Mr. Glazer. Well, I just 

Mr. Burling. Did you. go back to work ? 

Mr. Glazer. I went back to work ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. Were you subsequently removed from the foundry 'i 

Mr. Glazer. I was, sir. 

Mr. Burling. How did that come to pass? 

Mr. Glazer. I was taken to labor relations on an insubordination 
charge. 

Mr. Burling. About what ? 

Mr. Glazer. Well, it was a frame-up ; that I was insubordinate to 
my immediate foreman. 

Mr. Burling. Did that have anything to do with gambling, or your 
reporting the gambling activity ? 

Mr. Glazer. Yes, sir ; apparently so. 

May I say one thing, sir; that is the second time I was discharged. 
There were two discharges, and I was reinstated each time. 

Mr. Burling. Are you now an employee in good standing at the 
Ford Motor Co. ? 

Mr. Glazer. That I do not know, sir. 

Mr. Burling. I mean were you yesterday ? 

Mr. Glazer. As of yesterday? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. 

Mr. Glazer. Well, I am working. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Glazer. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Russell Trilck. 

Mr. Glazer. May I say something, sir? I think it has a great 
bearing on the occasion. 

The Chairman. Has it to do with Russell Trilck ? 

Mr. Glazer. No. 

The Chairman. Will you just stay there for a second, please. 

Yesterday, this witness who had been summoned was called by 
name and failed to respond. It was then said that his name would 
be called again today, and that, in the event that he failed to put in 
an appearance, appropriate action would be taken. His name has 
been called. He fails to answer. The committee feels it incumbent 
upon it to report to the full committee this fact so that contempt pro- 
ceedings would be considered. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, so that the record may properly re- 
flect the pertinency of the testimony of Mr. Trilck so as to establish 
the propriety of the service of his subpena upon him, and we have 
the subpena with the proper service in our file, I should like to read 
into the record my brief on Mr. Trilck so that the committee may 
know and the record show what we had expected to prove through 
Mr. Trilck. 

Russell Trilck is an old-time numbers operator. He also operated the 
Club Top Hat at 11287 East JeflFerson, River Rouge. 

From information received, it will be noted that he has or had, I 
should say, a gross income in 1947 of $612,000. His income was re- 
ported from the National Daily Bankers, which is the name of his 
numbers operation. 



224 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

He has a criminal record and paid a fine of a thousand dollars Sep- 
tember 1945. He is reputed to have built a home at 712 Buckingham 
in Lincoln Park, which is estimated to have cost $100,000. 

His partner in business is one Walter Halliberta for whom a sub- 
pena was issued, but was not served. It is reported that Mr. Halli- 
berta left for Florida, driving a 1950 Cadillac, license No. EL-54:76, 
the day before an attempt was made to serve him with a subpena. 

The Chairman. You may proceed, Mr. Glazer. 

Mr. Glazer. When you asked me, sir, if was working, I wish to 
state this at this time : That there was a lot involved. I was taken out 
of the foundry. In other words, against my will, I was taken out of 
the foundry. ' There were some company officials involved, in other 
words, and a communication has been shown to Mr. Amis — and also 
members of supervision are in this numbers racket, too. I mean, let's 
be fair about it. I gave that information over, and I wanted to bring 
that up as well, if I was given an opportunity, sir. There were three 
labor-relations officials. Two of them, I understand, are not with the 
company now, and one still is. So I had the communication that a 
labor-relations official in the foundry asked that I be reinstated with 
the. stipulation in my reinstatement that I be placed in the plant out- 
side of the foundry. 

Mr. Burling. What he has stated is substantially correct. I don't 
think it is relative to our inquiry, however. But it is correct. That 
is, Mr. Chairman, it is correct that tliis witness produced some docu- 
ments. I don't mean the conclusion about the company is correct. 

The Chairman. Very well. Thank you, Mr. Glazer. 

Emil Mazey. 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OT EMIL MAZEY, SECRETARY-TREASURER, 
UAW-CIO, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Mr. Mazey, you previously have been sworn and 
have given us the benefit of your knowledge on one particular phase of 
the operation. There are other facts that we would like to have from 
you, and it is noted that you have a statement, and we would be very 
glad to have you read it if that is your desire. 

Mr. Mazey. Yes ; I would. 

The union I represent consists of approximately 1,250,000 members 
organized in 1,050 local unions throughout the country. I speak here 
today with the full approval of our president, Walter P. Eeuther, and 
the other officers of the union. 

The leadership of our union has watched the work of your com- 
mittee with great interest. We approve the objectives laid down 
for you by the Senate. We believe that you are performing a necessary 
pubHc service; and we sincerely hope that your investigations of or- 
ganized interstate gambling, gangsterism, and racketeering Avill result 
in effective remedial legislation. 

We have a special interest in the hearings and investigations being 
conducted by your committee. We are hopeful that your committee 
may uncover evidence that will result in the solution of the attempt 
to assassinate our president, Walter P. Reuther, and our educational 
director, Victor Reuther, and the attempted bombing of our interna- 
tional headquarters. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 225 

We are hopeful that your committee may be able to expose the 
people responsible for the beatings administered to Ken Morris, the 
president of Local Union 212, the Briggs local, and other representa- 
tives of the union, including Arthur Vega, Roy Snowden, and Genora 
Dollinger. 

We hope that your committee can also solve the beating of union 
representatives who were members of Local 835, UAW-CIO, employed 
at the Detroit Stove Works. Beatings of leaders of the Detroit Stove 
Works unit of Local 835 created such intimidation and coercion that 
it led to the dissolution of our union in that plant. I refer specifically 
to the beating of Sam Mazzola. 

We confess to a feeling of deep biterness against these gangster ele- 
ments. During our first efforts to organize our union, we were con- 
tinuously and forcibly attacked by organized 'gangs of hoodlums and 
criminals who repeatedly acted as musclemen against our people for 
the benefit of antiunion employers. 

Mr. Burling. May I interrupt you for a moment, please? It is 
not clear to me what employer or what union you are talking about 
riglit now. 

Mr. Mazey. I am talking about the UAW-CIO. 

Mr. Burling. Are you talking about the stove works? 

Mr. Mazey. No. I am speaking about the employers generally: 
Ford Motor Co., Briggs Manufacturing, stove works 

Mr. Burling. Very well. You may continue, Mr. Mazey. 

Mr. Mazey. You will doubtless recall the vicious beatings given 
Walter Keuther and other union men at the Ford overpass in 1937. 
Gangster elements were identified among the assailants, who were 
employed by Harry Bennett, of the Ford Motor Co. It was only 
because I had been forcibly seized by four of the Ford servicemen thugs 
and thrown into jail that I missed being beaten myself at the time. 

You may also recall that Reuther's home was invaded by similar 
thugs during the same period, and that it was only by extreme good 
fortune that he missed being killed. 

These violent acts by organized criminals and hoodlums against the 
leadership of our union have not been solved by the law-enforcement 
agencies in our community. We believe that law-enforcement agen- 
cies were not really interested in solving some of the crimes committed 
against our union because they were being paid off by the organized 
rackets. 

In the early days of our union another Senate committee — the La 
Follette committee — and the National Labor Relations Board threw 
considerable light upon the motives and connections of the union- 
smashing operations of these organized gangs. Because of these par- 
tial exposures and because of the shouhler-to-shoulder fight waged by 
our union members, this sort of danger was greatly reduced. But we 
believe firmly that criminal elements connected with gambling and 
other forms of racketeering are still used to this day in union-busting 
activities — even though on a reduced scale and in more limited areas. 

There is no doubt that the racketeers believed then and believe now, 
that the union is a menace to them and their lucrative enterprises. 

I have been requested to comment on inter-plant gambling. I wish 
to say that the officers and executive board members of our union are 
completely opposed to any form of organized gambling inside the 
plants. We are opposed to organized gambling because it robs the 



226 ORGANIZED CRIJVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

members of our union of millions of liard-earned dollars annually. 
We are further opposed to inter-plant gambling because as long as 
it exists, there is always the possibility of corrupting the secondary 
leadership of our union which can lead to the weakening of our union, 
destruction of their moral fiber, and the deterioration of good rela- 
tionships with management and the general public. 

We are of the opinion that the organized gambling rackets in the 
plants can be cleaned up completely whenever management and law- 
enforcement agencies decide to tackle the problem honestly and aggres- 
sively. Gambling cannot exist in any plant without the knowledge 
and consent of some level of management. 

Individual citizens are reluctant to cooperate with law-enforcement 
agencies in cleaning up gambling and racketeering because they do 
not have complete confidence in the integrity and honesty of public 
officials. 

A few years ago, the mayor of Detroit, the prosecutor and the sheriff 
of Wayne County, the superintendent of police in Detroit and nu- 
merous other public officials were convicted of receiving payoffs from 
the numbers racket. 

It is understandable why the average citizens hesitates to bring law 
violations to the attention of law-enforcement agencies. I ask this 
committee to imagine what would have happened to any union official 
or any other citizen, back in 1938 or 1939 should be have gone to 
public officials with the evidence of gambling that he had uncovered. 
If he had appealed to Mayor Reading of Detroit, to Prosecutor Dun- 
can McCrea and Sheriff Wilcox of Wayne County, or Superintendent 
of Police Fromm, or any number of otlier high-placed police officers 
at that time. In all probability, 'the union officer or any other citizen 
who presented conclusive evidence to public officials at that time, would 
not have lived long enough to see the outcome of his charges. 

We believe that the majority of law-enforcement officers are honest 
and uncorruptable men. Nevertheless, the suspicion still exists and 
will continue to do so as long as powerful criminal gangs continue to 
spread so brazenly and continue to occupy mansions in Grosse Pointe. 

Because of proven corruption of elected governmental officials and 
police officials which has made the average citizen afraid to cooperate 
in cleaning up organized crime, we believe that your committee should 
recommend to Congress the passage of necessary Federal legislation 
that will enable Federal authorities to prosecute the violators of gam- 
bling laws both inside and outside the plants that local law-enforce- 
ment agencies have demonstrated their unwillingness or inability to 
cope with. 

The UAW-CIO pledges its wholehearted and full cooperation in 
every way to help eliminate the parasites who create cancerous sores 
of gambling and racketeering in our plants and in our community. 
We have seen public officials corrupted. We want to do everything 
we can to make certain that criminal elements do not corrupt union 
officials. 

We have a clean, democratic, progressive union, dedicated to the 
improvement of the lives of men and women who work for a living. 
We will not and cannot stand idly be and allow any elements in our 
society to weaken our union and prevent it from carrying on this vital 
work. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 227 

I would be willing to answer any questions that the committee would 
like to ask me. 

Mr, Burling. Can you be somewhat more specific, Mr. Mazey ? For 
example, what do you think can be done to cut down in-plant gam- 
bling? 

Mr. Mazey. Well, to begin with, the job of policing gambling in- 
side the job in our opinion is a job of management. Management dis- 
ciplines workers for violations of shop and company rules, and it is 
their prime responsibility to police gambling inside the plants. If 
they do so 

Mr. Burling. May I interrupt? The picture we get is that man- 
agement says they cannot do it because they can't discipline gamblers 
because of grievance proceedings brought by the union. The union 
says they cannot stop gambling because it is management's responsi- 
bility. To some extent, the ball is being passed back and forth, 
it seems to me. 

Mr. Mazey. We will see if we can get ahold of the ball and put it 
where it belongs. 

To begin with, if a worker is charged with gambling in the shop, 
and there is conclusive proof that he is guilty, the union will not prose- 
cute his grievance. On the other hand, if there is some question as to 
his guilt — it may be an aggressive union man that the company 
charged with gambling for the purpose of getting him out of the 
way — well, a case of that type would go through the grievance proce- 
dure and we would deal with that grievance based on the facts. If 
the facts were proven, we wouldn't stand in the way of that worker 
being discharged. 

Mr. Burling. Let us take a particular case. I am entirely satis- 
fied and I am sure that the chairman is, that the top level of the 
UAW feels genuinely and deeply, just as you have stated. 

On the other hand, we had here today, just a moment ago, a former 
committeeman of local 600, who wouldn't tell us about his own ac- 
tivities for fear of being incriminated, on a numbers charge, and we 
heard other testimony that he would go to the defense of persons 
charged with gambling. He is, obviously, a gambler himself. He 
admitted he wrote numbers outside the plant. 

Mr. Mazey. On the question of Hester, I would like to say that we 
elect our officers and our committeemen on a democratic basis by secret 
ballot. It is possible in the processes of democracy for people to be 
elected to office who are not fit. We don't have the power to appoint 
any of our officials. 

I want to say at the same time that I heard Mr. Walker testify 
this morning. The Ford Motor Co. top officials have never, on a 
single occasion, brought to the top officers of our union any problems 
relating to gambling inside the shop. In the event the company 
had information that people on the local level, either on a committee 
level, or local union level, were harboring and protecting gangsters, 
they could always come to the officials of the union and bring this 
matter to our attention. 

Mr. Bugas, who is labor relations director of the Ford Motor Co., 
has on no occasion brought this matter to the attention of either Mr. 
Reuther or myself. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Mazey. 

(Witness excused.) 



228 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. At this juncture, there will be placed in the record 
a statement explanatory of the connection of the office of Senator 
Capehart, a telegram in respect to the Frank Cammarata case. It was 
mentioned yesterday that there had been a telegram received from 
someone in his office and the statement of facts have been communi- 
cated to us and we would at this time desire to make that a part of 
the record with copies available to the press. 

(The documents identified were thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 17; the explanatory statement is as follows:) 

The Chairman. It reads as follows: 

With respect to the telegram from Mr. Donaldson, Senator Capehart's admin- 
istrative assistant, to Frank Cammarata, that was admitted into the record yes- 
terday, we have been in touch with Senator Capehart's office in Washington and 
have obtained the following additional facts : 

Shortly before the telegram was sent, a letter was received in the Senator's 
office from Joseph W. Lonisell, an attorney practicing here in Detroit with offices 
in the Penobscot Building. Senator Capeliai't had had no previous acquaintance 
with either Louisell or Cammarata and neitlier man had ever been in the Sen- 
ator's office. Louisell's letter asked that the Senator's office make a check on 
the status of Cammarata's application for a stay of deportation proceedings 
and that Cammarata be advised. 

Following the customary procedure where such letters are received in sena- 
torial offices — and I can speak with some authority on this point — a routine in- 
quiry was made of the Immigration and Naturalization Service by Mr. Donald- 
son; he ascertained the facts as set forth in the telegram and sent the wire in 
question to Cammarata and a duplicate to Mr. Louisell. 

Neither the Senator nor anyone in his office ever took any affirmative action 
in connection with Cammarata's application for stay of deportation or in con- 
nection with any proposed legislation affecting Cammarata. As a matter of 
fact, Senator Capehart said that until we asked him about the telegram yester- 
day, he had no idea who Cammarata was or why he was trying to get a stay 
of deportation. The only thing his office ever did in connection with Cammarata 
was to comply with a routine request from an apparently reputable lawyer for 
information respecting a Government matter. 

I will now call William Scott Stewart. 

Do you solemnly swear tlie testimony you will give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God. 

Mr. Stewart. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM SCOTT STEWART, ATTORNEY, 
DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. I might, in advance of the beginning of testimony, 
indicate that it is expected by the committee that a portion of the 
interrogation will be in public session, and a portion will be in 
executive session. 

Now, will you kindly give your full name, please ? 

Mr. Stewart. My name is Stewart; William Scott Stewart. 

The Chairman. Mr. Stewart, are you a member of the bar ? 

Mr. Stewart. Yes. 

The Chairman. For how long have you been practicing? 

Mr. Stewart. Since 1911. 

The Chairman. Counsel, will you proceed? 

Mr. Burling. Are you in active process, Mr. Stewart? 

Mr. Stewart. Well, yes. I find as I get older, I have fewer and 
fewer cases. 



ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 229 

Mr. Burling. We are not going to ask you anything which would 
invade the lawyer-client privileges, but you appeared in the Supreme 
Court last fall, is that correct ? 

]\Ir. Stewart. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Will you name the clients? That is a matter of 
record anyhow. 

Mr. Stewart. I represented Louis Campagna and Charlie Gioe in 
the Supreme Court of the United States. 

Mr. Burling. Of the United States? 

Mr. Stewart. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. That matter, briefly, related to a parole matter? 

Mr. Stewart. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. They were convicted in 1943 of a violation of the 
Antiracketeering Act? 

Mr. Stewart. That is right ; in New York, I represented them in 
the United States court of appeals in New York and I also tried 
unsuccessfully to get into the Supreme Court. 

Mr. Burling. 1 see. 

Now, what the committee wants to know in this open hearing, is why 
you did not respond to communications from the committee? 

Mr. Stewart. Well, what communications do you refer to? 

Mr. Burling. Well, on November 13, the record shows that Mr. 
Rudolph Halley, the chief counsel in Washington, instructed Mr. 
George Robinson, then associate counsel in charge of the Chicago 
Office, to get in touch with you and he tried repeatedly to get you by 
phone and was unable to. Can you explain that ? 

Mr. Stewart. Well, I can't explain his inability. I can tell you 
my situation. I mean what I do. I go down to Florida in the winter 
and I go as long as my practice will permit me to go. 

Mr. Burling. Is it your custom to leave no forwarding address? 

Mr. Stewart. That is right. That is the result of trial and error. 
I used to go down there and leave my address and number and have 
my mail sent. I found myself spending a great deal of my time taking 
care of my mail and answering phone calls, so I had decided recently — 
and I have been doing this for 2 or 3 years now — I just leave them 
keep everything there and when I got back I found a couple of 
bushels of mail and most of it has taken care of itself by the time I 
get back. 

Mr. Burling. You found that a good way to practice law ? 

Mr. Stewart. That is right. It is all right with me. There are 
probably very few lawyers that can do just that, but I find I can do it. 

Mr. Burling. You have a telephone answering service, is that cor- 
rect? 

Mr. Stewart. That is right. I have a 

Mr. Burling. Please answer the questions. 

Mr. Stewart. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. You are an extremely experienced lawyer. 

Mr. Stewart. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. A trial lawyer? 

Mr. Stewart. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Far more than I am. 

Mr. Stewart. They say that lawyers make poor witnesses. 

Mr. Burling. So you know how to answer the questions? 

Mr. Stewart. O. K. 



230 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. You do not give your telephone answering service 
your home phone? 

Mr. Stewart. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. And when you go away, you don't tell the answering 
service how to get in touch with you ? 

Mr. Stewart. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. And you don't leave any forwarding address for 
mail? 

Mr. Stewart. That is right. I leave the mail wait until I get back. 

Mr. Burling. So that it might be 3 months before somebody wanted 
to communicate with you and could do so? 

Mr. Stewart. That is not entirely true. The people I want to 
communicate with me, they know where to find me. 

Mr. Burling. I suppose that doesn't include the Kefauver com- 
mittee. 

Mr. Stewart. You can draw your own inference about that. 

Mr. Burling. I would like to read into the record something which 
will show our inference. This is a letter registered, return receipt 
requested, written on December 13, 1950, by Mr. Eudolph Halley, 
which was returned to the committee. It is addressed "Mr. William 
Scott Stewart, room 1601, 77 West Washington Street, Chicago, 111." 

The Chairman. I do think, in fairness to the witness who has not 
seen the letter addressed to him, he ought to see it first. 

Mr, Stewart. You can read it. It wouldn't hurt me to read it. 

The Chairman. I did not want it read until you have seen it. 

Mr. Stewart. There is nothing I can do about it. I will hear it 
when he reads it. 

The Chairman. I wanted to accord you the privilege of seeing it. 

Mr. Stewart. I am not claiming any privileges. 

Mr. Burling. By the way, that is the correct address for your 
office? 

Mr. Stewart. That is right. That is for my office. I have been 
there since the building was built ; that is, some 25 years. 

Mr. Burling. You were not there in December 1950 ? 

Mr. Stewart. That is true. I was down in Florida. 

Mr. Burling. It reads : 

About a month ago a matter came to the attention of this committee whicli the 
committee desired to discuss with you. I therefore instructed Mr. George Robin- 
son, associate counsel to the conmiittee, who is assigned to Chicago, to communi- 
cate with you. He has reported to me that he has tried on numerous occasions 
to reach you by telephone but has been unsuccessful and that you have omitted 
to comply with his request, left with your telephone-answering service, to call 
him back. 

On December 11 I myself placed a long-distance call to you and received the 
report that your whereabouts were unknown. I then dispatched a telegram to 
you which was today returned to me with the information that you were out of 
the city indefinitely and that your present address is unobtainable. Upon receipt 
of this information, I telephoned to your office and spoke to Mrs. Aubria McKee, 
who states that she is a public stenographer who operates a telephone-answering 
service and who answers your telephones. She informs me that you were in 
touch with her about 2 weeks ago and that she believes that you were in your 
office as recently as December 4, but that she has no idea of your present where- 
abouts or of your home address. 

I must say to you, in all fairness, that I consider this situation most extraor- 
dinary. I have never before heard of the total disappearance of a well-known 
lawyer. Indeed, the circumstances are such that the inference is very nearly 
compelling that you are hiding from this committee. I assure you that the com- 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMJMERCE 231 

mittee and its staff earnestly desire to show you every professional courtesy. It 
is our desire to have a discussion with you in complete confidence. If yovi per- 
sist in ignoring the entirely courteous requests which we have been making for the 
past month that you telephone to the committee's associate counsel in Chicago, 
the committee will have no recourse but to publish the fact that it has issued 
a subpena calling for your appearance before it and to request the appropriate 
process services and police officers to look for you. In order to avoid this dis- 
tressing eventuality, I most earnestly urge that you telephone to me forthwith. 
I shall, myself, be in Chicago starting on December 14, for a period of about a 
week. 

Sincerely, 

Rudolph Halley, Chief Counsel. 

Now, were you in Chicago around December 4? 

Mr. Stewart. I don't remember the date. I didn't get that letter ; 
1 know that. 

Mr. Burling. But your telephone-answering service says that 
around December 4 you were in your office and in touch with your 
answering service. 

Mr. Stewart. Oh, I called them once in a while. I can't give you 
dates. 

Mr. Burling. Did Mrs. McKee tell you that a representative of the 
Senate committee wished to communicate with you? 

Mr. Stewart. She hands me a batch of 

Mr. Burling. Can you answer the question "Yes" or "No"? 

Mr. Stewart. She didn't tell me that. 

Mr. Burling. You deny that? 

Mr. Stewart. I don't deny anything. She just didn't tell me that. 

Mr. Burling. You deny that she did tell you ? 

Mr. Steavart. I don't deny she told me. I mean, why fence with 
me. She hands me a batch of messages, and I was there for a short 
time and I left ; and I did make a little inquiry later on and tried to 
determine what it was that somebody wanted to ask me about. 

]\Ir. Burling. What steps did you take? 

Mr. Stewart. I inquired of my clients, and I represent Paul Delucia, 
and he said that at the request of one of the attorneys, either Mr. 
Kobinson or Mr. Halley, they wanted to see some witnesses concerning 
a wedding. You'd have to have some little background about that. 

Mr. Burling. I know about that wedding. 

Mr. Stewart. You know about it ? Well, one of the things is that 
they claim he violated parole and that concerned his daughter's 
wedding. So, at his request, certain people went in who were guests 
at the wedding to see the attorneys for the committee. Now, some of 
those ])eople told what they knew and answered questions, and then 
I understand they ran into some people who wouldn't answer. I under- 
stand Mr. Halley or Mr. Robinson thought if he could get in touch 
with me I would tell them to answer — they would answer. 

Now, I understood that is what Mr. — those folks wanted. 

Mr. Burling. You knew back in December that Mr. Halley and 
Mr. Robinson wished to talk to you in their official capacity as counsel 
for the committee of the United States Senate; is that right? 

Mr. Stewart. That isn't true. I didn't know that until — I didn't 
know that. 

Mr. Burling. Did you not just say that? 

Mr. Stewart. No ; I heard that they had called up over at the office 
service. 



232 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. They wanted to speak to you ? 

Mr. Stewart. They didn't leave any word to call them back that I 
know of. 

Mr. Burling. Do you not know they had big offices in the Federal 
Building of Chicago? 

Mr. Stewart. I know they had offices. 

Mr. Burling. And you could have got in touch very simply if you 
wanted to ? 

Mr. Stewart. No question about that. 

Mr. Burling. You just did not feel like it? 

Mr. Stewart. That isn't true. 

Mr. Burling. Well, you just said, Mr. Stewart, that you knew that 
Halley and Robinson wanted to talk to you. 

JVir. Stewart. I knew long after the event and, as far as I knew, the 
occasion had passed by . I appeared there, and it was published in the 
papers I was before Judge Igold ; the marshals are there and every- 
body is there. It isn't difficult to find me when I am in Chicago. They 
could call me. What of it ? What are you getting at? 

The Chairman. I do not think any proofs will be served by argu- 
ment. As I indicated before, as to another phase of the matter, the 
committee has deemed it advisable to have the hearing in executive 
session. We therefore will retire to the chambers in executive session 
and would ask counsel to 

Mr. Stewart. If I have any choice in the matter, I'd rather answer 
your questions here. 

The Chairman. It is a matter about which the committee feels 
preferable to have in executive session. We will then recess for lunch. 

Mr. Stewart. Would you listen to my objection to that method of 
proceeding ? 

The Chairman. We would be very glad to. 

Mr. Stewart. Well, in that way, why, the committee gives out what 
they choose to give out in their way, and I'd rather have the newspaper 
people and the public listen to the way I say it. 

The Chairman. Well, we have heard your suggestion and I might 
say that I think you are entitled certainly to see it before it is given out. 

Mr. Stewart. I wouldn't have any objection to giving out every- 
thing I say. 

The Chairman. We will now take a recess until 2 o'clock, which will 
be after the executive session. 

(Whereupon, a recess was taken until 2 p. m.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

The Chairman. The hearing will please come to order. 
I call to the stand Walter Hancock. 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF WALTER HANCOCK, LINCOLN PARK, 

MICH. 

The Chairman. You are Walter Hancock ? 

Mr. Hancock. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Hancock, you previously have been sworn, so 
it is unnecessary to administer the oath again ; and we, of course, 
recognize the fact that you are still testifying under oath. 

Mr. Hancock. Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 233 

The Chair]vian. As you did yesterday. 

Mr. Hancock. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Counsel will propound questions to you. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Hancock, I am sorry that we had to ask you to 
come back. I apologize. It is my fault. I forgot to ask you one or 
two questions that became pertinent later. But, to refresh your 
recollection, just to put us back on the track, there came a time in 
1931 when Mr. Bennett called you and told you to get hold of D'Anna ; 
is that right? 

Mr. Hancock. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. And then you took Tony out to Mr. Bennett's office ? 

Mr. Hancock. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. "Wlien did you next see Mr. Bennett ? 

Mr. Hancock. A couple of weeks, I guess. 

The Chairman. Keep your voice up. 

Mr. Burling. And, when you saw this man a couple of weeks after 
the time you took Tony to see him, what conversation did you have 
with Mr. Bennett? 

Mr. Hancock. Well, it was something not pertaining to the auto- 
mobile deal — is that v^'hat you mean? I did ask him, though, "Is 
Tony going to get that leadership?" He says, "I think him and 
Pardo." 

Mr. Burling. He said, "I think him and Pardo." 

Mr. Hancock. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. Did he say anything about the name of the agency, 
what name the agency was to be under ? 

Mr. Hancock. No ; he didn't. 

Mr. Burling. Perhaps I can refresh your recollection. Did he 
say anything to the effect that he wanted it to be in Pardo's name be- 
cause that would be a good name for the agency ? 

Mr. Hancock. No ; he didn't say that, Mr. Burling. 

Mr. Burling. Did Pardo ever say that to you ? 

Mr. Hancock. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did he ever have any explanation whatsoever as 
to why one would be named or omitted to be named ? 

Mr. Hancock. No. We just had, you might say, three or four 
words, that's about all. 

Mr. Burling. Did he say he was going to give it to Pardo and 
D'Anna? 

Mr. Hancock. No. If I remember right, the words he used were, 
"I think Pardo and D'Anna will get it." 

The Chairman. You are very clear, Mr. Hancock, on the point that 
he, Mr. Bennett, used Pardo's name as being one of those to get in 
with D'Anna ? 

Mr. Hancock. That's right. 

The Chairman. AVliere was the conversation held ? 

Mr. Hancock. In the administration garage. 

The Chairman. Of what? 

Mr. Hancock. Ford Motor Co. 

The Chairman. Of the Ford Motor Co. ? 

Mr. Hancock. That's right. 

The Chairman. That is all, Mr. Hancock. Thank you. 

(Witness excused.) 



234 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF EDWARD HESTER, DETROIT, MICH., 
ACCOMPANIED BY HARRY ROBERT BOCKOFF, ATTORNEY 

The Chairman. Edward Hester. 

You are Edward Hester? 

Mr. Hester. Yes. 

The Chairman. And you previously have been sworn ? 

Mr. Hester. Yes ; I have. 

The Chairman. So that you understand that any testimony you may 
give is given under the oath which was administered to you this 
morning ? 

Mr. Hester. Yes. 

The Chairman. Now, when you were here this morning, you were 
not represented by counsel, and certain questions were asked of you, 
and you refrained from answering them; is that not correct? 

Mr. Hester. That is true. 

The Chairman. Thereupon, it was suggested that you might seek 
the advice of counsel prior to your coming back this afternoon; is 
that correct ? 

Mr. Hester. Well, I had the understanding when I left here that 
I was supposed to bring my counsel back. 

The Chairman. That is right, either to bring him back or to talk 
w^itli him, that is correct, and you did come back and you are accom- 
panied by counsel ? 

Mr. Hester. Yes. 

The Chairman. Would you be good enough to identify yourself, 
please. 

Mr. BocKOFF. My name is Harry Robert Bockoff . I am admitted to 
the bar of the State of Michigan, and I practice in Wayne County. 

The Chairman. And your office is located where ? 

Mr. Bockoff. My office is located at 2046 National Bank Building. 
I have been practicing in Detroit since 1929. 

The Chairman. Than you, Mr. Bockoff. You may sit with your 
client, if you wish. 

Now, counsel, will you proceed. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Hester, because you were not represented by 
counsel this morning, the chairman has decided that we will regard 
the testimony given this morning as of no effect and we will start 
over again with you and we will just disregard tiie kind of testimony 
you gave this morning and take this as your testimony since you are 
now represented. 

Mr. Bockoff. May I indulge in a statement? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Bockoff. The only point I am primarily and particularly 
interested in is the answer to a question as to whether or not the wit- 
ness here on a particular date did offer to the chief of police of the 
city of Dearborn a certain sum of money in the form of a bribe. 

The Chairman. It was with reference to that particular matter 
that we suspended the further interrogation of this witness this 
morning. 

Mr. Bockoff. Mr. Hester advised me of that situation and has 
asked me to come over here in his behalf. I would like to inform the 
committee, and I think the committee is aware of the fact that there 
is now pending in the circuit court for Wayne County a case against 



ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 235 

Mr. Hester involvino; this particular fact, this particuLar charge, and 
it is my judgment — I hope I am not in error — but I have advised Mr. 
Hester that in view of the pending criminal action now against him, 
that he avail himself of his constitutional immunities and privileges 
as to that question and refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. Now, Counsel, I might just make this observation. 
With reference to other matters that were not directly related to this 
particular point to which you have addressed yourself, we do consider 
that the previous testimony is in and will remain in. 

Mr. BocKOFF. I have no regard or interest in that testimony at all. 

The Chairman. All right. Now, with reference to that particular 
phase of the matter, we will now give consideration and Mr. Burling 
will propound a question or two to ascertain just what the situation 
will be. 

Mr. BuRLiNCx. I w^ould like to ask Mr. Bockoff one or two questions. 
I understand that this is a State offense that Mr. Hester is charged 
with. 

Mr. Bockoff. He is charged with committing a violation of a 
statutory act. 

Mr. BuRLiNCx. It is a State offense ? 

Mr. Bockoff. That is correct. 

Mr. Burling. Is he charged with any Federal offense ? 

Mr. Bockoff. Not at the present time nor that I know of. 

Mr. Burling. Are you aware of any Federal law against numbers ? 

Mr. Bockoff, No ; I don't know of any Federal law against numbers. 

Mr. Burling. Are you aware of any Federal law making it unlaw- 
f ul to offer a bribe to a city police officer ? 

Mr. Bockoff. No; I know of no Federal law like that. I don't 
think thepe is a Federal law like that. 

Mr. Burling. Are you familiar with the numerous cases in the 
Supreme Court of the United States that has held that in a Federal 
forum, the fifth amendment which gives the witness a privilege against 
incriminating himself applies solely to Federal offenses? Have you 
read those cases, sir ? 

Mr. Bockoff. In my judgment, in a matter of law and in a matter 
of common sense a man stands before this investigating committee 
here ■ 

Mr, Burling. I wonder if you would answer my question. Have you 
read the cases ? 

Mr. Bockoff. Not all of them, perhaps some. 

Mr. Burling. Are you of the opinion that the Supreme Court is 
wrong ? 

]VIr. Bockoff, I will reserve my opinion as to what I think. 

Mr. Burling. Will you agree with me that the Supreme Court of 
the United States lias held that the right against self-incrimination 
applies only to Federal offenses ? 

Mr. Bockoff, I can't agree with you, I suppose there have been 
briefs filed pro and con on that particular point. 

Mr. Burling. But the briefs were in cases that were then decided 
by the Supreme Court. Don't you know what the Supreme Court 
held on the point ? 

Mr. Bockoff. You undoubtedly have specialized in that particular 
subject because of this particular investigation. On the other hand, 
I might say this broadly: In my judgment, the Constitution has 



236 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

granted to persons certain immunities, one of them is the privilege 
that a person may not testify against himself or be required to. That 
is in the broad sense. I have advised Mr. Hester in the broad sense 
that if there is a Constitution to protect him and he requires that 
protection to avail himself of it. 

Mr. Burling. I want to say to you, sir, that before you give a client 
advice in a matter as important as this, you should particularly con- 
sult the authorities and it is most extraordinary for a lawyer to say 
a series of cases decided by the Supreme Court of the United States 
are not binding. 

Mr. Chairman, it is the advice of counsel that as a matter of law, 
there is no such privilege. Of course, the question of discretion is 
with the Chair. 

The Chairman. Counsel, are you also aware of the Federal statute 
which protects a witness in a Federal proceeding who has been inter- 
rogated with regard to a matter such as this and concerning with 
which he might be required to testify as in our judgment he would 
be required to testify in this proceeding in connection with a purely 
State offense? That is to say, if he were required to answer, that 
testimony cannot subsequently be used against him. 

Mr. BocKOFF. On the other hand, Mr. Chairman, I am well aware 
that although testimony cannot be used against him, should any 
witness before this committee state that they have committed an of- 
fense, there is nothing to prevent any law enforcing agency here or 
any layman or any witness to swear out a complaint or warrant in the 
State court against any witness who admits committing an offense. 

The Chairman. Yes. But the only thing that has been adduced 
here is the admission, if such it be, of a witness and that p^articular 
admission cannot be used against him so that he does not suffer as a 
result of being required to answer that question. 

Mr. BocKOFF. May I make a further statement? 

The Chairman. Yes, proceed. 

Mr. BocKOFF. Purely and simply the situation is this : The theory 
of Mr. Hester's offense — and I think it is an adequate defense under 
the law of Michigan — is that this particular crime of which he is 
charged, that of bribery, was induced by the complainant. He was 
trapped by a series of preceding events to commit this particular act. 
That is an adequate defense under the laws of the State of Michigan. 
However, I have advised and I trust my judgment is correct, and it 
is nevertheless my opinion and my studied advice to Mr. Hester on 
that one question 

The Chairman. Mr. Bockoff, if you feel there is adequate defense 
of entrapment, do you still hold and advise your client not to testify ? 

Mr. BocKOFF. The situation may be this, Mr. Chairman : I have an 
election to make at the time of this man's trial as to whether he will 
or not take the stand in his own behalf. Factually, he may wish to 
make the statement that in his opinion he did not commit this offense 
which would be the act of committing the offense. 

HoAvever, should he inform this committee that he committed the 
act with which he is charged, T am afraid he is definitely placing him- 
self in a position of great jeopardy in the subsequent proceeding. 

The Chairman. Well, in just stepping aside from that for a mo- 
ment, are there any other matters that you feel the witness should 
refuse to testify to ? 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 237 

Mr. BocKOFF. I know of none, Mr. O'Conor. 

The Chairman. Are there any other matters, counsel, that you de- 
sire to ask him other than tliat with reference to the specific act con- 
cerning Chief Guy ? 

Mr. Burling. No, Mr. Chairman. I would like to comment that 
counsel has said he gave a studied opinion. I would say that his study 
could not have included the opinions of the Supreme Court which are 
contrary to his view. 

INIr. BocKOFF. Well, that is your opinion to which you have a 
right to adhere, and this is mine. 

The Chairman. Of course, the witness has made other statements 
this morning concerning other matters not related to this specific in- 
stance. However, we feel that it would be undoubtedly misunder- 
stood if a witness who was under a pending indictment was brought 
here by compulsory process and then interrogated with particular 
reference to that matter, and required to give evidence which in the 
opinion of this counsel might jeopardize his rights in that proceeding. 

However, our counsel, Mr. Burling, has stated the law correctly as 
we view it. His explanation of the Federal statutes and of the deci- 
sions of the Supreme Court is in exact accordance with our own. 
Nevertheless, there is a discretion in the committee either to pursue 
or to refrain at this juncture from pursuing a particular line of inquiry. 

Mr. BocKOFF. May I say that it is neither the desire of Mr. Hester 
nor myself to be in contemptuous conduct with this committee. Mr. 
Hester has come here voluntarily. He had not consulted me — and 
yet he desires my presence — until late this forenoon, and I am only 
interested, as I have stated, in the one subject. 

We are not attempting to coerce, or hinder the investigation of the 
committee. I am only interested in protecting Mr. Hester in this one 
particular instance. 

The Chairman. Well, we feel that there has been given to the com- 
mittee very impressive testimony by Chief Guy, which was stated in 
a most straightforward manner, and which is of such a nature that we 
feel that we are satisfied as to the accuracy of it. That being so, we 
are fully informed as to this particular incident up to this time, al- 
though we felt it only fair and proper to give Mr. Hester his oppor- 
tunity to deny it, if he desired to avail himself of that opportunity. 

Now, he does not desire to avail himself of this opportunity, so the 
committee can draw its own conclusion and, certainly, in the light of 
uncontradicted testimony of Chief Guy, we have our record before us 
and for our further guidance, because as I said before, the committee 
has a discretion in the matter, as to whether to pursue this further. 
We do not think it is necessary to pursue it further in view of this, 
Chief Guy's uncontradicted testimony. For that reason, we will not 
have the question pressed further. 

Mr. BocKOFF. May we be excused ? 

The Chairman. Yes, indeed. 

( Witness excused. ) 

The Chairman. Mike Rubino. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God ? 

Mr. RuBiNO. I do. 

68958— 51— pt. 9 16 



238 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

TESTIMONY OF MIKE RUBINO, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. What is your full name ? 

Mr. RuBiNO. Mike Rubino. 

The Chairman. And your address? 

Mr. RuBiNO. 1068 Bedford. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived at that address ? 

Mr. EuBiNo. About 6 years. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived in the city ? 

Mr. RuBiNO. I was born here. 

The Chairman. Counsel may proceed. 

Mr. Burling. What is your business, Mr. Rubino ? 

Mr. RuBiNO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Burling. Do you have any grounds for refusing to answer ? 

Mr. RuBiNO. It might incriminate me. 

Mr. Burling. Are you aware that the numbers racket is not a 
Federal offense? 

Mr. Rubino. I don't know what you are talking about. 

Mr. Burling. I am not talking w^iether you are in the numbers 
racket, but are you aware that being in the numbers racket is not a 
Federal offense? 

Mr. Rubino. I don't know what you are talking about. 

Mr. Burling. You never heard of the numbers racket ? 

Mr. Rubino. I heard of it; yes. 

The Chairman. You do not know anything about it ? 

Mr. Rubino. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. At any rate, you have a long criminal record, do you 
not? 

Mr. Rubino. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. In 1927 your offense is S. L. In 1930, assault with 
intent to kill. These are all alleged, and I do not mean to imply 
that you were convicted for each one of them. You didn't go to 
Leavenworth until 1933, when you got 7 years for counterfeiting. 

In 1930, robbery, armed. In 1930, interference. In 1930, witness 
to a shooting. In 1931, disorderly person. In 1931, disorderly 
person. In 1933, investigation. In 1933, violation of United States 
Code. In 1933, counterfeiting. You were sent away for 7 years on 
that, were you not? 

Mr. Rubino. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. In 1933, violation of the United States Code. In 
1933, public enemy. Were you arrested on the charge of being a 
public enemy? 

Mr. Rubino. It must be if it is there. 

Mr. Burling. There are several transfers that appear here, and 
then we come to 1939, when you were investigated UDAA. In 1941, 
for narcotics. Were you ever arrested on a narcotics charge ? 

Mr. Rubino. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. You don't remember? 

Mr. Rubino. No. 

Mr. Burling. How was it possible that you could be arrested for 
narcotics cliarges and not remember? 

Mr. Rubino. I wasn't arrested for narcotics. 

Mr. Burling. You were. 

Mr. Rubino. No, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME, IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 239 

Mr. BunLiNG. If tiie police record says you were, then it is wrong ? 

United States marshal, Detroit, Mich., Milie Rubino, No. 11842, January 14, 
1941. 

I didn't see this. You went away for it, did you not ? 

Mr. RuBiNO. Conspiracy, but not narcotics. 

Mr. Burling. Conspiracy to violate the narcotic law ? 

Mr. KuBiNO. I don't understand what you are talking about. 

Mr. Burling. You do know what narcotics are? 

Mr. KuBiNo. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. What were 3^011 charged with conspiring to do? 

Mr. KuBiNO. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Burling. It slipped your mind even though you went to prison. 

Mr, E.UBINO. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. Even though you went away on a sentence of 18 
months in a Federal correctional institution, it has slipped your mind, 
has it? 

Mr. RuBiNO. I can't think that far back. I just can't remember. 

Mr. Burling. You cannot remember whether you went to jail? 

Mr. RuBiNO. I know that, yes. 

Mr. Burling. Then we come down to 1944, investigation of robbery 
armed, and in 1944, investigation for murder, and in this year, investi- 
gation of assault with intent to kill. Did you get those arrests ? 

Mr. Rubino. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever been in a legitimate business ? 

Mr. Rubino. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Burling, Have you ever earned an honest dollar in your life ? 

Mr. Rubino. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Burling, How does that incriminate you, Mr. Rubino, to testify 
whether you ever earned an honest dollar ? 

Mv. Rubino. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I think that question is clearly proper 
and I ask that the witness be ordered to answer it. 

The Chairman. Yes, the committee directs that you answer. 

Mr. Rubino. I refuse to. 

The Chairman, All right. The next question. 

Mr. Burling. I have here some sheets which look to me like account- 
ing sheets that have columns headed "T, H, Col, Short, and X, and 
EXP". The number 72400 and the date April 21. Then there is a 
tape, an adding-machine tape. Did you ever see those before? 

Mr. Rubino. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Burling. You refuse to answer ? 

Mr. Rubino, I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Burling. Whether you saw them ? 

Mr, Rubino. That's right, 

Mr, Burling. By the way, were you ever arrested for shooting a 
police officer? 

Mr. Rubino. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Had you ever been a fugitive from justice? 

Mr, Rubino, I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Burling, Didn't you just disappear for about 2 years, at one 
time ? What is your answer ? 

Mr, Rubino. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Burling, What is the Ajax Manufacturing Co, ? 



240 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. RuBiNO. It is a manufacturing company. 

Mr. BuBLiNG. Manufacturing what? 

Mr. Rtjbino. They manufacture automotive parts. 

Mr. Burling. What kind of automotive parts ? 

Mr. RuBiNO. Mirrors. 

Mr. Burling. Do you own it ? 

Mr. RuBiNO. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Do you recognize this photograph of a house? 

Mr. RuBiNO. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Whose house is that? 

Mr. RuBiNO. I rent that one. 

Mr. Burling. This indicates the economic status of this man who 
has a criminal record and I ask that the photograph be admitted in 
evidence. 

The Chairman. It will be submitted and marked "Exhibit No. 18." 

(The document identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 18, and appears in the appendix on p. 1031.) 

Mr. Burling. Who owns the house? 

Mr. RuBiNO. Mrs. Armelee. 

Mr. Burling. Will you spell it ? 

Mr. RuBiNO. I don't know. 

Mr. Burling. Can you read and write? 

Mr. RuBiNO. No. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever been in partnership with Pete Li- 
cavoli ? 

Mr. RuBTNO. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You do know him? 

Mr. RuBiNO. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You never had any business dealings with him? 

Mr. RuBiNo. Never. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, our memorandum on Mr. Rubino 
reads : 

This man is one of the toughest hoodlums in this part of the country. Is 
suspected in several murders. Is trigger man for Licavoli combine in a number of 
murders. 

Do you care to comment about that ? 

Mr. RuBiNo. I don't know what you are talking about. 

Mr. Burling. You cannot understand that? 

Mr. Rubino. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the witness once 
more if he can identify these documents which I will characterize 
as policy records, and then, since policy is not a Federal offense, I will 
ask the Cliair to order the witness to answer. 

Mr. Rubino, I show you a sheaf of papers dated April 21. Will 
you please examine them and state whether or not you know what 
they are? 

Mr. Rubino. I refuse to look at them. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Burling. You refuse to look at them ? 

Mr. Rubino. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. I will ask the Chair to direct the witness to answer. 

The Chairman. The Chair directs you and you still refuse? 

Mr. Rubino. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Burling. May these be marked in evidence ? 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 241 

The Chairman. The sheets will be admitted in evidence and 
marked, and the witness' refusal duly noted. The Chair will rec- 
ommend to the full committee that a citation for contempt be issued 
against Mike Rubino, 

(The document identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit 19, and are on file with the committee.) 

The Chairman. You are excused. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Burling. Will either Deputy Superintendent Lawrence or 
Inspector Slack, whichever knows this case better, step forward 
please ? 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Slack. I do. 

TESTIMONY OP PAUL SLACK, INSPECTOR, POLICE DEPARTMENT, 

DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. Your full name, please? 

Mr. Slack. Paul Slack. 

Mr. Burling. What rank do you have with the police department? 

Mr. Slack. Inspector. 

Mr. Burling. And you were in charge of what squad? 

Mr. Slack. The vice bureau. 

Mr. Burling. The vice bureau ? 

Mr. Slack. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. Does the matter of policy come under your jurisdic- 
tion? 

Mr. Slack. It does. 

Mr. Burling. Did the police department make a policy case of one 
Mike Rubino last year? 

Mr. Slack. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Did the department ever make such a case? 

Mr. Slack. There was a case made on Sam Lucido, and Mike Ru- 
bino figured into that case, and the document that you showed him a 
moment ago was evidence taken from that particular case. 

Mr. Burling. Sam Lucido ? 

Mr. Slack. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. From whom were the documents taken? 

They were taken from Mike Rubino's home. 

Mr. Burling. I show you exhibit No. 19, in evidence, and ask you if 
you are familiar with it^ 

Mr. Slack. Yes ; I am familiar with it. 

Mr. Burling. That was taken from Mike Rubino's home? 

Mr. Slack. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. By the police acting lawfully, I take it ? 

Mr. Slack. That's right.' 

Mr. Burling. Can you explain what that sheet is, for the commit- 
tee's benefit? What is your understanding as to what those entries 
indicate? 

Mr. Slack. Well, this is a record on mutuel numbers. 

Mr. Burling. Tell us, if you know, what those different columns 
represent ? 



242 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Slack. The first column represents the code or particular 
region where these tickets came in from. 

The second column represents the take. 

Mr. Burling. That is how much money each particular pickup man 
brings in; is that right? 

Mr. Slack. No ; that is the over-all take for this particular period. 

Mr. Burling. The over-all take? 

Mr. Slack. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. That is all for 1 day, isn't it ? 

Mr. Slack. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. You mean the over-all take from one particular 
region or code number ? 

Mr: Slack. That's right, and the next, what was collected and what 
was short. 

Mr. Burling. Then there is a column "Expenses." 

Mr. Slack. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. I believe there is the word "law" there on that sheet, 
isn't there ? Perhaps it is on another sheet. 

Mr. Slack. I don't notice it here. 

Mr, Burling. Now, would you look at that file and see if there 
aren't several sheets for the same day. 

Mr. Slack. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. That would indicate that this policy house took in 
the total of takes which is the amount arrived at on the several sheets? 

Mr. Slack. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. That is 1 day alone ? 

Mr. Slack. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, we have here the records for about 
2 weeks. I don't think we should take the time of the hearing to go 
into all of them, but I think they should all go into evidence, so we can 
have an accountant total them and give us an idea of the volume of 
this one operation. 

Is it agreeable to the police department that we take these to Wash- 
ington, photostat them, and return them to you ? 

Mr. Slack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Will you examine the rest of this file and see if there 
is not also a file of police records taken from the home of Mike Rubino ? 

Mr. Slack. Here is one. 

The Chairman. They all will be marked and placed in evidence, 
and through the kind cooperation of the inspector and his associates 
will be photostated and the originals returned to you, sir. 

The documents identified were thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No, 20, and are on file with the conmiittee.) 

Mr. Burling. I think I can state to you, Mr. Chairman, that the 
committee regards this case as a good piece of police work, and wants 
to commend the police department on it. 

The Chairman. That is true. 

Inspector, there are just one or two other questions I would like to 
ask you, because the particular location here, so close to the Canadian 
border, does present a situation which we have not encountered else- 
where. Not only are State lines involved, but international borders 
as well. Are you familiar — as I am sure you are — with the operations 
in regard to horse-race betting? 

Mr. Slack. Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 243 

The Chairman. Would you say as to -wliat happened when and if 
there had been a concentration of effort here in Detroit to stamp out 
horse betting. Did that reappear in Windsor or across the border? 

Mr. Slack. When we concentrated and raided race wire-service cen- 
ters we found that it moved across the river. 

The Chairman. Moved across the river into 

Mr, Slack. Windsor, Canada. 

The Chairman. Now, do you know Pete Licavoli ? 

Mr. Slack. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you are familiar with his operations and his 
reputation here? 

Mr. Slack. Yes. 

The Chairman. Do you know who represents Licavoli's interests 
in Windsor ? Have you information on that ? 

Mr. Slack. I know who represents the wire-service interests in 
Windsor. 

The Chairman. Who does? 

Mr. Slack. Howard Kerr. 

The Chairman. Is it true. Inspector, that Frank Costello gave the 
Windsor and the Detroit area rights to Howard Kerr, leading prostitu- 
tion and the numbers racket on both sides of the border, to Pete Li- 
cavoli and Joe Bommaritto? Have you heard information to that 
effect ? 

Mr. Slack. I have heard a little information on Costello. 

The Chairman. You had not heard that Kerr went to New York to 
see Costello and actually paid a substantial amount running in excess 
of $30,000 monthly for the bookie rights? 

Mr. Slack. Well, I have heard that he pays quite a bit of money 
for the wire-service rights over there, but to whom, I don't know. 

The Chairman. Would you say that there is still operating from 
Windsor lines which make possible betting from Detroit; that since 
the concentration of effort by the Detroit police to stamp out horse 
betting, it has been followed from Windsor ? 

Mr. Slack. Well, there has been considerable concentration in 
Windsor and in recent weeks they have made a number of raids over 
there, and I think it is pretty quiet over there now. 

The Chairman. I would like to show you several photographs and 
ask you if you will give us your knowledge of them. 

Mr. Slack. These photographs are photographs of a wire service 
relay station that we located down in Lincoln Park, Mich. 

Mr. Burling. Wlien was that, Inspector? Was that the raid in 
December? 

Mr. Slack. That was previous to the raid in December. 

Mr. Burling. That shows a considerable number of telephones in 
one place. 

Mr. Slack. Yes, sir. There were 21 telephones there. 

Mr. Burling. And that indicates that the racing information comes 
in on one and it fanned out to the others, is that right ? 

Mr. Slack. In this particular case, an open line was held between 
Windsor and Detroit and a relay station had been built, and 21 lines 
emanated from that station to bookmakers in metropolitan Detroit. 

Mr. Burling. I see. 



244 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Now, changing tlie topic slightly, there was a raid, was there not, 
some time in 1950, in which a number of telephones listed under dif- 
ferent names were seized and service canceled ? 

Mr. Slack, That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Would you look at this series of canceled checks, and 
see if that refreshes your recollection about that ? 

Mr. Slack. Yes; I am familiar with these checks. These checks 
are refund checks. 

Mr. Burling. That is, when the 21 phones were put in, the pur- 
ported subscriber had to put up a deposit; is that right? 

Mr. Slack. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. And when you raided the place, each telephone sub- 
scriber had a refund coming to him ? 

Mr. Slack. That is true. 

Mr. Burling. Now, did one man endorse all of those refund checks? 

Mr. Slack. Yes, sir. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Who ? 

Mr. Slack. Anthony Giacolone. 

Mr. Burling. That would indicate to you that he had some con- 
nection with this fan-out system ? 

Mr. Slack. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Pardon ? 

Mr. Slack. That is right. 

The Chairman. Inspector, I think you said in response to a question 
that you did not have very much information with regard to Frank 
Costello. 

Mr. Slack. That is right. 

The Chairman. You do, however, have some, do you not ? 

Mr. Slack. Yes; I have heard the name frequently. I have never 
seen the man in Detroit. He was supposed to have visited here a 
couple of years ago on a deal but I never got to him. 

The Chairman. Any information which you do have or can acquire 
would, of course, be available to the committee because we have quite 
a lot of information regarding him operating in the East. 

Mr. Slack. I would be glad to tell you everything. 

The Chairman. Thank you. Inspector, very much. 

Is Joe Brynski here ? 

Mr. Burling. I think these photographs and checks should be 
received in evidence. 

The Chairman. They will be admitted and marked. 

(The documents identified were thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 21, and are on file with the committee.) 

The Chairman. Is Joe Brynski here? 

Mr. Sam Brynski. Joe has a broken leg. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, may I say that this man has been 
notified and has been served with a subpena and he, or rather, his 
lawyer was notified in due course that he would have to be here today. 
We were not told that he had a broken leg. 

Mr. Sam Brynski. Mr. Anderson knows about it. 

Mr. BtiRLiNG. You will be quiet, sir. You are not under oath and 
you will not be heard. 

I recommend, Mr. Chairman, that the Chair require that a sworn 
doctor's certificate that the witness is unable to be here be furnished 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 245 

Mr. Amis by 10 o'clock tomorrow morning and if that is not done, that 
the cliairman of the subcommittee recommend to the full committee a 
citation of Joseph Brynski for contempt. 

The Chairman. That will be clone, and will you undertake to 
procure such a certificate ? 

Mr. Sam Brynski. That statement will be here tomorrow morning. 

The Chairman. x\11 right. You are excused. 

The next witness is Louis Ricciardi. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS EDWARD RICCIARDI, DETROIT, MICH. 

Mr. BuRLTxCx. ]Mr. Chairman, before we commence the testimony of 
this witness, may I state on the record so that its pertinence will appear 
as to why we wish to examine Joseph Brynski ? It is our information 
that he is a major numbers operator operating under the so-called 
"snoozie" house, and it is the desire of the staff to place before the 
committee his testimony. 

The Chairman. It will be so noted and, of course, further steps 
taken to require his appearance and testimony. 

Now, what is your full name ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. Louis Edward Ricciardi. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Ricciardi, I ask 3^011 to keep your voice up, 
if you will, please, so that everybody can hear you. 

Mr. Ricciardi. Yes. 

The Chairman. What business have you engaged in ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. Linen supply business. 

The Chairman. Is it known as the Clean Linen Service ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. That is right. 

The Chairman. How long have you been engaged in that operation ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. About 18 years. 

The Chairman. What is the location ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. Well, we started originally in a laundry — Detroiter 
Hotel. 

The Chairman. You have always been in Detroit, have you? 

Mr. Ricciardi. Always in Detroit. 

The Chairman. For 18 years. 

Mr. Ricciardi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. The Clean Linen Service Co. does a big gross business, 
does it not ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. Yes, considerably big. 

Mr. Burling. I consider $229,000 a big sum of money. 

Mr. Ricciardi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Can you read and write ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You had $229,000 gross in 1940 and $279,000 in 1941, 
is that right ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. If you have it there, it must be right, because our 
records are here. 

Mr. Burling. $306,000 in 1942? 

Mr. Ricciardi. It is about that ; right. 



246 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. $504,000 in 1943, is that right? 

Mr. RicciARDi. If those are our records. 

Mr. Burling. $409,000 in 1944 and $262,000 in 1945. I am skipping 
$305,000 in 1949, rather I skipped 1948 which was $612,000, is that 
right ? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Burling. Is there anything wrong where you want to contradict 
me? 

Mr. RicciARDi. I would know if those are the records that our audi- 
tors sent down, they are right. 

Mr. Burling. Yes, this is taken off your records and you got $44,000 
in 1945 as a partnership earning and $40,000 in 1946 and $42,000 in 
1947 and $48,000 in 1942. Also, $56,000 in 1949, is that right? 

Mr. R.ICCIARDI. If that is what is there. 

Mr. Burling. You make a comfortable living? 

Mr. RicciARDi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever been arrested on the charge of murder ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. If you would enlighten my memory 

The Chairman. Do you have to be reminded of it or have your 
recollection refreshed as to a charge of murder ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. It was some time ago. 

Mr. Burling. Well, you have been arrested five times. Mr. Chair- 
man, this man has been arrested five times for murder and now you 
cannot remember? 

Mr. .RicciARDi. I remember being arrested ; yes. 

Mr. Burling. On a charge of murder and you cannot remember it? 

Mr. RicciARDi. I do remember it ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. The first dne was back in 1918 — March 18. Wlio were 
you accused of having murdered? 

Mr. RicciARDi. I just don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. It slips your mind? Well, the same year, October 
17, you were charged with murder and do you remember who that 
was? 

Mr. RicciARDi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Then in 1920 in September you were charged with 
murder, do you remember? 

Mr. RicciARDi. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. Then in November of that same year, you were 
charged again with murder. Have you ever been charged with armed 
robbery ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. If you have it there I have, because I have been 
arrested several times. 

Mr. Burling. Do you have any interest in the Wonder Bar ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. None whatever ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Going on with the murders, do you remember you 
were arrested in March of 1923 on the charge of murder? 

Mr. RicciARDi. If it is there, I must have been. I just don't remem- 
ber those dates. 

Mr. Burling. I can read the record. It is in front of me. I am 
asking if you remember. 

Mr. RicciARDi. I do not remember. I remember being arrested. 



ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 247 

Mr. Burling. I do not know the feeling of the chairman but it cer- 
tainly is incredible to me that a man could be arrested about five times 
■on the charge of murder and not remember anything about it. 

Mr. RicciARDi. That many times but I just don't know the days. 

The Chairman. Do you remember having been arrested? 

Mr. RicciARDi. Yes. 

The Chairman. You do not remember the days ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. Or the charges. 

The Chairman. Or the charges ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. No, I don't. 

Mr. Burling. Have you ever been arrested on a narcotics charge? 

Mr. RicciARDi. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Burling. That was your very first arrest, was it not ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Burling. Do you remember the first time you were arrested ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. No, I don't — quite a while ago. 

Mr. Burling. Back in 1917 the record shows you were arrested for 
violation of the drug law. Does that refresh your recollection? 

Mr. RicciARDi. If it is there, I must have been arrested. I don't 
know wliat the drug is. 

Mr. Burling. You do not know what drugs are ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. Yes, I know. I don't know w^iat they look like. 

Mr. BuRLiNOr. How about December 13, 1919? Well, I am sorry, 
that is a violation of the United States Code. How about March 21, 
1920, for narcotics? 

Mr. RicciARDi. I never had anything to do with narcotics. 

Mr. Burling. Were you ever arrested for the violation of the Prohi- 
bition Act ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You remember that ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Do you remember you had five separate arrests for 
armed robbery ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. I don't remember that. If they are there, I must 
have been charged. 

Mr. Burling. By the way, are you a citizen ? 

jMr. RicciARDi. No, sir ; I am not. 

Mr. Burling. You are not ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. When did you enter the United States ? 

:Mr. RicciARDi. About 1904. 

The Chairman. You have been here for 47 years and never made 
an attempt to become a citizen ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. Yes, I did ; but just on account of that record there. 
I don't think I'd be admitted. 

Mr. Burling. Are you not in business with Angelo Meli ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Have you not ever been in business with Angelo? 

Mr. RicciARDi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Never? 

Mr. RicciARDi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You have never been in the juke-box business with 
anyone ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. No, sir. 



248 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. Now, do you liave a home in Florida ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Have proceedings for deportation been commenced 
against you ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Never? 

Mr. RicciARDi. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. It is contrary to the information supplied us by the 
Immigration Service, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Mr. Ricciardi, have you any explanation that you 
can give to this committee as to how a man with your record of law 
defiance and law infractions could be accepted and could succeed to 
the position you have and to be enjoying the benefits of society that 
you have without any citizenship or without having earlier made 
proper efforts to obtain it unless, of course, jou were enmeshed in 
trouble and then disentitled to citizenship? Have you any expla- 
nation that you can give us ? 

Mr. EicciARDi. Well, I have all those arrests. I have never been con- 
victed of — I don't know — one — but there was a custom whenever you 
got arrested, they put a charge against you and later you would be 
dismissed. I had nothing to do with that. 

Mr. Burling. We have been told that the Clean Linen Service 
operates so tliat if anyone ever takes your linen service and then wants 
to stop and shift to another one, no other service in the city will serv- 
ice that account. Have you ever heard that story ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. It isn't so. 

Mr. Burling. You deny that? 

Mr. RicciARDi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. We have been told that you maintain your prosper- 
ous business through muscle. Do you understand what I mean by 
"muscle" ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. I do and I don't. 

Mr. Burling. Do you know Sam Perrone ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. No ; I don't. 

The Chairman. That is all. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Tocco. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM TOCCO, DETROIT, MICH., ACCOMPANIED 
BY V/ ALTER SCHWEIKART, ATTORNEY, DETROIT, MICH. 

The Chairman. What is your full name ? 
Mr. Tocco. William Tocco. 
The Chairman. Wliat is your address ? 
Mr. Tocco. 781 Middlesex. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived in Detroit ? 
Mr. Tocco. Over 38 years. 

The Chairman. Counsel accompanies you today and is your 
attorney ? 
Mr. Tocco. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME, IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 249 

The Chairman. Would you be good enough to identify yourself? 
Mr. ScHWEiKART. Walter Schweikart, and my address is 1184 Edley, 
Detroit, Mich. 

The Chairman. We are glad to have you, and any juncture in the 
procedure where you desire to be heard to make any representation to 
us, you may do so. Now, certain questions will be propounded by 
counsel. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Tocco, just to try to get the Tocco family straight, 
you are the son of which Tocco ? 
Mr. Tocco. The son? 
Mr. Burling. Who was your father ? 
Mr. Tocco. My father is in the old country. 
Mr. Burling. Who is Joe Tocco ? 
Mr. Tocco. No relation. 

Mr. Burling. Do you have a son named William, also ? 
Mr. Tocco. No, sir. 
Mr. Burling. Do you have any son ? 
Mr. Tocco. Jack. 
Mr. Burling. Jack Tocco. 
Mr. Tocco. Anthony Tocco. 
Mr. Burling. Jack is his nickname ? 
Mr. Tocco. No. I have two sons. Jack and Anthony. 
Mr. Burling. You were born in Italy ? 
Mr. Tocco. Yes. 
Mr. Burling. Wliat part? 
Mr. Tocco. Near Palermo. 
Mr. Burling. Sicily? 
Mr. Tocco. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. In what business are you ? 

Mr. Tocco. I am in the fruit business, Lakeshore Boats, the bakery 
business and I am employed by the Lafayette Motors. 
Mr. Burling. What is the Lafayette Motors ? 

Mr. Tocco. They sell automobiles. 

Mr. Burling. What kind of automobiles? 

Mr. Tocco. Chryslers and Plymouths. 

Mr. Burling. Is your son an officer of the Lafayette Motors ? 

Mr. Tocco. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And you have received over the past 10 years, divi- 
dends of $10,000 to $12,000 a year, is that right? 

Mr. Tocco. What's that? 

Mr. Burling. Is that right? 

Mr. Tocco. What did you say ? 

Mr. Burling. That vou received dividends over the last 10 years of 
about $10,000 to $12,000. 

Mr. Tocco. From where? 

Mr. Burling. From the Lafayette Motors. 

Mr. Tocco. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You returned on your income-tax return 

]Mr. Tocco. Not from Lafayette Motors. 

Mr. Burling. This is your tax return for William V. Tocco ? What 
street do you live on ? 

Mr. Tocco. 871 Middlesex, Grosse Pointe, Mich. 

Mr. Bltrling. Your return shows $9,303.50 from Lafayette Motors- 
Mr. Tocco. Not in the last 10 years. 



250 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. I am taking it up year by year. In 1949, you did, is 
that right? 

Mr. Tocco. I guess so. 

Mr. Burling. Do you recognize this photograph [indicating] . 

Mr. Tocco. Yes, that is my house. 

Mr. Burling. As an indication, Mr. Chairman, of the economic 
status of this witness, I would like to put this photograph into evi- 
dence. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. Wliat is the age of that house? 

Mr. Tocco. Twenty-two years old. Over 22 years. 

The Chairman. What is the value of it as of today ? 

Mr. Tocco. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Just about. 

Mr. Tocco. What do I know. 

Mr. SciiWEiKART. There is a little cost of three lots and tbe house 
was $60,000, on which he obtained a $30,000 mortgage. 

The Chairman. Would counsel indicate what his approximation 
of its value would be today ? Have you anv thought in the matter ? 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. I would say $35,000 or $40,000. 

The Chairman. It will be marked and received as exhibit No. 42. 

(The photograph identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 22, and is on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Burling. Do you have a criminal record? 

Mr. Tocco. I can tell you that I was arrested a couple of times when 
I came out of the dance halls late at night. 

Mr. Burling. You have three arrests on armed robbery now, do 
you not? 

Mr. Tocco. Armed robbery ? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. 

Mr. Tocco. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. On May 26, 1920, the Detroit police record shows 
you were arrested for armed robbery. Do you deny that? 

Mr. Tocco. I was arrested, hut you know they put anything on. 

Mr. Burling. You mean they just put any old thing on it. 

Mr. Tocco. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. Then, again, in 1923, you were arrested for armed 
robbery ; was that the charge that time ? 

Mr. Tocco. I don't recall it. 

Mr. Burling. In 1923 you were arrested for moving property. In 
1924, for armed robbery. 

Mr. Tocco. Removing what? 

Mr. Burling. I said armed robbery. 

Mr. Tocco. I don't remember. 

Mr. Burling. Then, again, in 1931, for investigation. In 1932, 
for violation of the National Prohibition Act. Do you remember 
that? 

Mr. Tocco. In 1932? 

Mr. Burling. Yes. 

Mr. Tocco. I guess so. 

Mr. Burling, i ou were a bootlegger during prohibition, were you 
not? 

Mr. Tocco. I guess so. 

Mr. Burling. The answer is "Yes" ? 

Mr. Tocco. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 211 

Mr. Burling. In 1945 you were arrested for investigation of murder. 
Who were you charged with having murdered ? 

Mr. Tocco. What do you mean 1945 ? 

Mr: Burling. In 1945. 

Mr. Tocco. Arrested for murder ? 

Mr. Burling. That is what the record shows. 

Mr. Tocco. Oh, my God. 

Mr. Burling. What is it that you said ? 

Mr. Tocco. I said, "Oh, my God." 

Mr. Burling. Then the record is wrong; is that right? 

Mr. Tocco. Listen, I was at the race track. 

Mr. Burling. Were you arrested on a charge of murder ? 

Mr. Tocco. No, sir. They just put me off the race track. 

Mr. Burling. They put you off the racetrack ? 

jSIr. Tocco. Yes ; and charged me with murder. 

The Chairman. Mr. Tocco, will you just answer the questions? 

Mr. Tocco. I want to clarify the answer. 

The Chairman. You can make any explanation you wish to counsel 
who will advise you. 

Mr. Burling. In 1951, January 13, 1951, you were arrested once 
more. That is last month, or less than a month ago. You were ar- 
rested, were you not? 

Mr. Tocco. For what ? 

Mr. Burling. I don't know. 

Mr. Tocco. Does it say there in the subpena ? 

Mr. Burling. Conspiracy to violate the gambling laws? 

Mr. Tocco. No, sir, no, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You were not arrested ? 

Mr. Tocco. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. The deputy superintendent of police, Kennedy Law- 
rence, is here, and I wonder if he would come forward and identify 
this document. May the record show 

Mr. Lawrence. He was arrested and brought in for subpena — — 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. Did the reporter get what Mr, Lawrence said, in 
the record ? I want him to repeat it for the record. 

Mr. Lawrence. That is the arrest on the 15th of January when Mr. 
Tocco was brought in and served a subpena for this committee. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. What does the record show 

Mr. Burling. I will ask any questions necessary. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. Senator, I believe we should clarify that one 
issue. It shows that the records are not correct. He was arrested 
under a subpena, and that shows gambling. 

Mr. Burling. Is it correct, Inspector, that the charge recorded in 
the books was violating the State gambling laws ? 

Mr. Lawrence. I didn't see the record. That is what the record 
shows here : violating the State gambling laws. That is the charge 
he was brought in on. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. What was 

Mr. Burling. I said that we would ask any questions we deemed 
necessary. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. We should have the superintendent explain 

The Chairman. I think I can ask a question to clear it up. The 
record shows he was brought in for alleged violation of the gambling 
laws. 



252 ' ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Lawrence. That is right. 

The Chairman. Actually, upon his being brought in he was served 
with a subpena to attend this hearing. 

Mr. Lawrence. That is right. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. That is right. 

Mr. Burling. Did you form or take part in forming the Pfeiffer 
Brewing Co. ? 

Mr. Tocco. Forming the Pfeiffer Brewing Co.? 

Mr. Burling. Do you know anything about the Pfeiffer Brewing 
Co. or did you ever have anything to do with it? 

Mr. Tocco. Previously I had. 

Mr. Burling, Previously to what ? 

Mr. Tocco. To Pfeiffer. 

Mr. Burling. You mean the name of the company was changed? 

Mr. Tocco. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. T\'liat was it changed from ? 

Mr. Tocco. From State Products Co. 

Mr. Burling. Please speak up. 

Mr. Tocco. I am trying to do my best. 

Mr. Burling. Who was with you in State Products Corp. ? 

Mr. Tocco. It was Anthony Lambert. 

Mr. Burling. Who else? 

Mr. Tocco. Herman Weil. 

Mr. Burling. Go ahead. 

Mr. Tocco. Af red Epstein and Mr. Zerrilli. 

Mr. Burling. Is that Joe Zerrilli ? 

Mr. Tocco. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. Would you please answer the question. 

Mr. Tocco. Just a minute, I'm trying to confer with my attorney. 
If I don't remember something, I want to ask him. 

Mr, Burling. No conversation, please. We've got to keep the hear- 
ing going. 

Mr. Tocco. That's all, those five of them. 

Mr. Burling. I see. And you originally founded State Products 
at the end of prohibition ; is that right ? 

Mr, ScHWEiKART. If I may make a statement, I may assist you some- 
what to save your time. 

The Chairman, Supposing you do, Counsel. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. Previous to the repeal of the prohibition law, 
the State Products Co., I have been advised, manufactured malt, which 
was practically legal. These men, Mr. Tocco and the rest of them, 
were in this business for some time, from around 1928 or 1929 up until 
the repeal of the prohibitiotn law, and at that time, they sold out the 
State Products to some people from Chicago. The deal fell through, 
and later on, their interest — Mr. Tocco and IVlr, Zerrelli's interest was 
sold to Alfred Epstein, And that is the time that they got out of the 
State Products Co, But from around 1927, 1928, or 1929 up until the 
repeal of the prohibition law, they were in the State Products. 

Mr. Burling. AVhen did they sell out to Epstein ? 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. I would say in 1933 or 1934. 

Mr. Burling, Didn't Mr. Tocco remain in it until about 1937 ? 

Mr, ScHWEiKART, Well, I don't think so, I doubt it very much, 
because 

Mr, Burling, Let us have the witness testify. He is under oath. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 253 

When did you fjet out of either State Products or Pfeiffer Brewery? 

Mr. Tocco. Listen, all I know, I sold out. The time and place, I 
don't know. I don't I'eniember. 

Mr. Burling. You don't remember when you sold it? 

Mr. Tocco. No, not the exact day. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. We can show you that according to his income 
tax, if you want. In other words, an income tax was filed, and we will 
be very happy to show it to you. My recollection is 1933 or 1934. 

Mr. Tocco. AVho remembers so f ai* back ? 

Mr. Burling. In addition to selling legal malt, State Products sold 
beer, illegal beer, didn't they? 

Mr. Zerrelli. What's that ? 

Mr. Burling. State Products sold illegal beer during prohibition 
too, did it not ? 

Mr. Tocco. No, sir. 

Mr. Burling. But you admitted you w^ere a bootlegger. 

Mr. Tocco. So I admitted it. 

Mr. Burling. But you deny that you made beer ? 

Mr. Tocco. Tliat's right. 

Mr. Burling. I see. 

Mr. Tocco. You said before the State Products. We didn't make no 
beer in the State Products. Gret things right here. 

Mr. Burling. You did make beer, but not under State Products? 

Mr. Tocco. That's right. 

Mr. Burling. And you are now an investor in Lafayette Motors? 

Mr. Tocco. In the building. 

Mr. Burling. In the building? 

Mr. Tocco. Yes. 

Mr. Burling. And what is the name of the coach company? 

Mr. Tocco. Lake Shore Coach. 

The Chairman. I think that is all. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. May I just ask a few questions of this witness to 
kind of help his reputation along a little bit ? 

The Chairman. Certainly. 

Mr. SciiWEiKART. Mr. Tocco, you are the father of how many 
children ? 

Mr. Tocco, Seven. 

Mr. SciiWEiKART. Have you been in any illegal enterprises outside 
of violating the prohibition law"? 

Mr. Tocco. No, sir. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. And that was previous to 1928 or 1929? 

Mr. Tocco. That's right. 

Mr. SciiWEiKART. And these arrests that "were made, have you ever 
been brought to trial on any of them? 

Mr. Tocco. No, sir. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. At any time, has there ever been a warrant issued 
for your arrest ? 

Mr. Tocco. Not that I remember. 

]Mr. ScHWEiKART. And you do recall it ? You were never arrested 
for violating the prohibition law — or never arrested or convicted for 
violating the prohibition law? 

Mr. Tocco. No, sir. 

68958 — 51— pt. 9 17 



254 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. Now, what year did you come to this country? 

Mr. Tocco. I came here in 1912. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. And how old were you at that time ? 

Mr. Tocco. Barely 15 year old. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. Did you ever serve in the United States Army ? 

Mr. Tocco. I enlisted in the United States Army when I was 19' 
year old. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. Then you were not drafted? 

Mr. Tocco. No, sir. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. And how long were you in the Army ? 

Mr. Tocco. Twenty-one months. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. And ever since the mistake that you made in vio- 
lating the prohibition law, you have lived a good clean life ? 

Mr. Tocco. That's right. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. And brought up a nice family ? 

Mr. Tocco. That's right, seven kids. 

Mr. ScHWEiKART. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. You are very welcome. 

You are excused. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. There are no further witnesses to be called, al- 
though other witnesses have been summoned, but we consider their 
testimony would be cumulative and might not reveal anything particu- 
larly different from that which has been taken already. 

But before closing the hearing, I would like to ask whether there is 
any person whose name has been mentioned in the proceedings to 
whom reference has been made in any way unfavorably and who feels 
that he is entitled to be heard in order to clear his name? 

Mr. BoEHM. I would like to read a statement. My name was used 
in the proceedings. 

The Chairman. And you feel you would like to make a statement? 

Mr. BoEHM. I think so. 

The Chairman. What is your name, please ? 

Mr. BoEHM. My name is Ernest C. Boehm. I am one of the assistant 
prosecuting attorneys. I am here in connection with the Hester 
matter. 

The Chairman. I see. Now, you will, of course, follow the proce- 
dure as in all cases and you will be sworn. Do you have any objection? 

Mr. BoEHM. No. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. BoEHM. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF EENEST C. BOEHM, ASSISTANT PEOSECUTOR, 
WAYNE COUNTY, MICH. 

Mr. BoEHM. May I sit down ? 
The Chairman. Yes, indeed. 
Mr. Boehm, what is your position? 
Mr. BoEHM. I am an assistant prosecutor. 
The Chairman. What county ? 

Mr. BoEHM. Of Wayne County. I am in charge of the criminal 
division of the Wayne County Circuit Court. 



ORGANIZED CRIME, IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 255 

The Chairman. May I ask you to be good enough to speak loud 
enough so all may hear you ? 

Mr. BoEHM. Certainly. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Boehm, would you care to make a state- 
ment, first without being interrupted, and, of course, to answer any 
questions that may be asked of you? 

Mr. BoEHM. Yes. 

The Chairman. Now, we have annonnced the rule that any person 
whose name has been mentioned in these proceedings, if he feels that 
any injustice has been done him, he has the perfect right to appear 
and to present any factual information which he thinks would be of 
importance or would bear upon the assertions that have been made. 
We feel you are entirely within your rights in coming, and we are very 
glad to hear what you have to say. 

Mr. Boehm. Thank you, sir. 

Now, this is the statement I would like to make to the committee : 

Ealph Guy, police chief of the city of Dearborn, testified that the 
bribery case against Edward Hester was dismissed, but this is not 
true. The case only nolle prossed so that it could be started over to 
eliminate defects in the pleadings. None of these pleadings were pre- 
pared by me, but all were prepared by the former administration. 

On November 21, 1950, this case was nolle prossed, and on the very 
same day I immediately issued a new warrant for the same charge of 
bribery, and Edward Hester is now before the court awaiting examina- 
tion on this case. You will see from the court order nolle prossing the 
case that no dismissal was made, but only a nolle prosse in order to 
eliminate defects in the pleadings and bring the case on for trial on 
proper pleadings. The court order, entered on November 21, 1950, 
reads as follows : 

Reason said case should be nolle prossed is so that it can be started over again 
in order to show venue and proper proofs in an examination. 

When I examined the transcript of the case for trial I found that 
Mr. Guy had stated that the bribe was given to him "in his office" 
but he did not say that his office was located in Dearborn. This is a 
technical jurisdictional defect because under Michigan law the 
place of the crime must be stated with certainty. 

So in order to make absolutely sure that Edward Hester would not 
get out on a technicality I nolle prossed the case and immediately 
started the case over and issued a warrant for his arrest on bribery. 

The Chairman. I might say in fairness to Chief Guy that he didn't 
claim that this case was dismissed. My notes taken at the time he 
testified show that he testified that on November 18 or thereabouts, 
1950, the case was called for trial and was nolle prossed. So that 
he testified exactly to the same effect you are now testifjnng. 

Mr. Boehm. Did he testify that we issued a warrant the same day? 

The Chairman. He did. 

In fairness to the chief, I wanted to get that one point in because 
T took notes as he testified and he said that a motion to quash was 
filed by the attorney for the defendant and that upon that motion 
being filed, the district attorney then nolle prossed the case. He then 
said that a warrant was then issued again. There was a preliminary 
hearing given on it and then it was more recently remancted and sent 
back again to the original jurisdiction. 

Mr. Boehm. That is right. 



256 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMAIERCE 

The Chairman. So that Chief Guy's testimony conforms with yours. 

Mr. BoEiiM. That is rijrht. 

The Chairman. Of course, there was one ])oint that lie did brinp; out 
which you might wish to say something about and that is that he said 
that the original arraignment was on July 2, 1948, and that more than 
2 years elapsed between the arraignment on July 2. 194-S. and the 
date when the case was called for trial in the middle of December 
1950. 

Mr. BoEHM. Yes ; I would like to say something on that, your Honor. 
We went into office on January 1, our present administration. In 
the circuit court we had a load of 731 cases backlogged and we kept 
whittling those cases down until right now we have them in shape so 
that we get immediate trials and this one was part of that former 
administration — of 731 cases that we had whittled down. In that 
year and a half we whittled them all down. We finally whittled 
them all down and when this case came up for trial, we wanted to be 
absolutely sure that this fellow Hester woukhi't fret out on a tech- 
nicality and the only way to make absolutely sure of that was to 
see that he won't get out on any technicality in the proceedings. The 
safe thing to do was to nolle ])rosse it, start it over so that he could be 
convicted and there wouldn't be any chance of him getting off. 

The Chairman. All right. Is there anything else you wish to say ? 

Mr. BoEHM. No. 

The Chairman. Is there anyone else whose name has been men- 
tioned or to whom reference has been made which, in their opinion, 
reflects unfavorably and unfairly upon him? 

The Chairman. I feel it might be of interest to make a concluding 
statement and a possible summation for the benefit of all who are 
interested in the proceedings that we have had. I may say that 
these Detroit hearings having been held, w^e are of the belief that 
the testimony which has been taken has added considerably to the 
information gathered heretofore by this committee charged by the 
Senate with the responsibility of investigating matters having to 
do with organized crime in interstate traffic. The evidence has 
disclosed, in our opinion, quite important matters. We feel that 
there is a particularly serious situation which has been revealed 
here. Criminals with records which ought to have disentitled them 
to participation in legitimate business and in decent society have mus- 
cled in or forced their way into otherwise honest endeavors and 
to private industry and legitimate enterprise in this area, as has 
been indicated. Men, whose past records do not entitle them to any 
consideration in our opinion at the hands of decent people, have 
been allowed to make large amounts of money, live in comparative 
luxury and under circumstances which only those who have en- 
gaged in decent and legitimate enterprise ought to enjoy in our 
society. So that there is a particularly serious situation here which 
we have not encountered in all other places where the hearings have 
been held. That we think is noteworthy because in cei-tain key in- 
dustries, it is shown that public enemies have gained a foothold. In 
other words, we are combating enemies from without who would 
knock down the institutions and overthrow the institutions of our 
country from without and at tlie same time we see evidences of the 
infiltration of public enemies from within who have done nothing 



ORGANIZED CRIME. IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 257 

to build lip America but have gnawed at the vitals of our American 
institutions and yet have now oained a foothold in legitimate en- 
terprises. We think that racketeers have gained access to legitimate 
undertakings. Missing witnesses whose testimony we deem very 
necessary will continue to be sought with all the vigor that is pos- 
sible and in that connection I may say that at this minute, as I am 
speaking, representatives of this committee are before the proper 
authorities in this building with reference to testimony and giving 
evidence as to alleged perjury in connection with our investiga- 
tion. In other w^ords, that proceeding is now in progress right in 
this building. This committee will also give further attention to 
contempt proceedings with reference to other witnesses who have 
refused to answer ciuestions which we deemed eminently proper and 
which should be answered. 

Now, I might say that there are more pleasant aspects of this 
situation which I ought not to lose sight of. I feel it perfectly in 
order to express gratitude and profound thanks to the people of 
Detroit who are in the great majority in this city law abiding, law 
respecting, and as fine a type of citizenry as can be found any place 
else in the United States and to thank the people of Detroit for their 
hospitality to all of the members of our staff. Particularly, we deem 
it appropriate to express appreciation to the police department, the 
splendid police department of the city of Detroit. I feel that it is 
in order to express appreciation to Judge Arthur Lederle because no 
more considerate treatment has been received by the committee any- 
where than from him through the use of his courtroom and chambers. 
As a matter of fact, w^e practically evicted him and his capable staff 
during the course of these proceedings. We also wish to express 
thanks to the United States marshal, Joseph Wojecki, and to Mr. Ed- 
mund Tobolow, the custodian of the building, for their excellent co- 
operation and their services. I feel that I should mention Mr. Kane, 
the United States attorney, and his staff, and thank them for the 
expeditious manner in which they have proceeded with the facts at 
hand in regard to further proceedings which are now being held. 

I desire to also thank the press, the radio, and the television serv- 
ices for bringing home to the public the activities of the committee. 
We think that in no other community has there been more direct and 
helpful cooperation than has been exhibited here because the people 
in their homes have been able to get the first-hand information as to 
what we are attempting to do. 

Finally, I would like to say a word of praise to the others in our 
committee and staff', to Mr. Burling, to Mr. Klein, to Mr. Amis, to 
Mr. McCormick. and to Mr. Caldwell, and also the young ladies for 
their services and assistance. 

I close by stati^ig again what I undertook to state at the outset and 
that is that we feel as ^Members of the United States Senate that we 
have a great obligation to the people of the United States to give 
earnest attention to developments having to do with organized crime, 
wnth the possible use of the instrumentalities of interstate commerce 
in regard to crime and to unlawful activities. All of this matter, all 
of these proceedings, all of the evidence taken, will be duly reported 
by the very capable persons who have reported these proceedings 
and will be made known to the entire committee. I emphasize that 



258 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

the information will be available to all members of the committee 
and to the United States Senate so that appropriate action can be 
based on the evidence which has been taken. We are determined to 
go to the very bottom of these matters and where there properly can 
be improvement in the Federal structure, they must be made because, 
certainly, our communities must be made safe places in which to live 
and there must be resistance to organized crime and to those who 
would tear down the basic institutions of our country. 

As I said before, we have found certain conditions here which we 
think require further attention although I don't wish, by saying 
that, to indicate that we feel that this great and enterprising com- 
munity, one of the finest in America, is composed in the majority of 
other than law abiding and outstanding citizens. 

A Reporter. May I ask a question ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

A Reporter. Could you give us further details about the instances 
of alleged perjury. 

The Chairman. Well, I might say that that is in the hands of the 
United States attorney. We made available to him all the information 
and at his request, and by his initiative, he has started proceedings this 
afternoon and at this minute Mr. Burling and Mr. Amis are now being 
interrogated so as to carry forward any further proceedings which 
he thinks are required. 

A Reporter. I take it there are some formal complaints of perjury 
lodged ? 

The Chairman. Well, it is not within our province to answer for 
Mr. Kane but I can say this : There are specific matters which have 
grown out of these proceedings which he is giving attention to at this 
minute. 

With that, the hearings will be concluded and we are very grateful 
to all of those who have assisted. 

(Thereupon, at 4 p. m., the committee was adjourned.) 



imestictATion of oectAnized ceime in inteestate 

commeece 



MONDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 1951 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee To Investgate Organized 

Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Waskmgton, D. 0. 
The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 : 20 a. m., in 
room 457, Senate Office Building, Senator Herbert K. O 'Conor i)resid- 

Present: Senators O'Conor (presiding), Kefauver (chairman), and 
Tobey. 

Also present: Downey Rice, associate counsel; John L. Burling, 
associate counsel, and Joseph L. Nellis, assistant counsel. 

Senator O'Conor. Will the hearing please come to order. 

By direction of the conunittee chairman. Senator Kefauver, I have 
been asked to open the hearings to make it possible for a witness who 
testified before our subcommittee in Detroit about 10 days ago to 
testify this morning. 

Is Louis E. Eicciardi present ? 

Mr. RicciAEDi. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Would you hold up your right hand? Do you 
swear that the testimony you give in this matter shall be the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS E. EICCIARDI, ACCOMPANIED BY EDWARD 
J. HAYES, ATTORNEY AT LAW 

Mr. Hayes. May I say my name is Edward J. Hayes, a lawyer in 
Washington and Detroit, and that on February 9 in Detroit Mr. Louis 
E. Ricciardi was called to testify as a witness, and at which he did 
appear. After leaving the Federal Building and reflecting upon his 
testimony, he become concerned about one negative answer that he gave 
to the counsel to the committee as to the correctness of it. He there- 
upon got a hold of his certified accountant who handled his income 
tax records. It took him until sometime late in the afternoon to ge*" 
a hold of him, and then he went to his Detroit counsel, and in going 
over it he had seen that he had made an honest mistake, and he went 
back with his Detroit counsel, Mr. Richard Sullivan to the Federal 
Building; whereupoji he registered downstairs — they require people 
going upstairs to register in the Federal Building — and getting up- 
stairs, he found that the committee had adjourned for the day and 

259 



260 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

had gone back to Washington. It seems there was an erroneous 
opinion by Detroit counsel that the committee was having night ses- 
sions both Thursday and Fi'iday night, which, of course, was in- 
accurate. So he thereupon wired your committee for an opportunity 
to come down here to straighten the record as to this one question, and 
he received a wire from your committee that he would be given this 
opportunity. 

I wish to thank the chairman for giving Mr. Eicciardi this oppor- 
tunity, and he is now ready to testify as to that particular question 
propounded by Mr. Burling, counsel of the committee. 

Senator O'Conok. It is in order for any witness who is summoned 
or who appears before the committee, headed by Senator Kefauver, 
to have an opportunity to correct any statement which they may have 
made, or if they had not had full opportunity, to have that chance 
to do it. So if the witness will proceed now to make any statement 
that he desires in regard to the matters about which he was interro- 
gated by us in Detroit. 

Mr. Hates. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator O'Conor. Mr. Burling. 

Mr. Burling. Just in order that the matter may be intelligible to 
the press about the Detroit hearing and the public here in Washing- 
ton, I might briefly state : This witness was called before us because 
he iias a linen-supply business in Detroit which has grossed as high 
as half-a-million dollars. He also has a long criminal record, in- 
cluding five arrests for murder, all of which he testified before us in 
Detroit had slipped his mind. We were interested in the circum- 
stances under which a man having such a criminal record and such 
associations was able to have such business. 

Now, Mr. Ricciardi, will you proceed to make such corrections to 
the record as you think should be made ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. Yes, sir. I was asked that question by you, Mr. 
Burling 

Senator O'Conor. Keep your voice up, please, so all may hear. 

Mr. Ricciardi. I was asked the question by Mr. Burling if I was 
ever in business with Angelo Mele, and I answ^ered, "No.'' I would 
like to correct that question — that answer to the question for this rea- 
son : That wlien I left the committee and went up to my accountant's 
office to talk on some business, among some of the questions that I told 
him I had answered before the committee was, "Have you ever been 
in business with Angelo Mele?" Well, he said, "Let me refresh your 
memory. Back in about 1935 or 1936, somewhere back there, up to 
around about 1940, I filed income tax for you and Mr. Mele and six or 
seven other j^eople that wei-e connected with the night club." And I 
therefore didn't know that. You see why I didn't know that I was con- 
nected with it because I was not active in this club, and according to 
Mr. Hamel, who is the accountant, he told me that neither was Mr. 
Mele active in this club. 

Mr. Burling. What is the name of the club? 

Mr. Ricciardi. Club Royal e. 

Mr. Burling. Club Royale ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. That is right. 

Mr. Hayes. R-o-y-a-l-e. 

Mr. Ricciardi. Of course, I knew nothing about the operations of 
the club because I just had a share of Mr. Kelly's share, who was my 



ORGANIZED CRIME, IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 261 

partner in the linen-supply business, and therefore I knew nothing 
of the operations of the club. 

Senator O'Conor, What was the extent of your holdings in the 
club? 

Mr. RicciARDi. Oh, about — I just don't remember. About 8 or 10 
percent or maybe 12. I don't know. Something around that. 

Senator Tobey. Was this a gambling club ? 

Mr. RicGiARDi. It was a restaurant. They did have some gambling 
there, too. 

Senator O'Conor. And Angelo Mele was one of the 

Mr. RicciARDi. Partners. 

Senator O'Conor (continuing). Partners in the club at the time? 

Mr. RicciARDi. That is right. Not active. 

Senator O'Conor. At the time of your holding of the stock, did you 
then know that Angelo Mele was identified with the club ? 

Mr. RicciARUi. 1 didn't know at the time. I didn't know until Mr. 
Hamel, the accountant, told me he had filed the income tax for the 
place, and he knew at that time he was connected with it. 

Senator O'Conor. What benefits did you derive from the stock that 
you held ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. I just don't remember that. Not very much. 

Mr. Hayes. Did you file income tax? 

Mr. RicciARDi. Yes ; I did file income tax. 

Senator O'Conor. Mr. Burling. 

Mr. Burling. You filed a partnership income-tax return, didn't 
you? 

Mr. RicciARDi. I don't know how it was filed. 

Mr. Burling. You didn't own stock, did you ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. No. I had part of Mr. Kelly's share. 

Mr. Burling. You were a partner of Angelo Mele's, isn't that 
correct ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. If that makes me a ])artner, I was, sir, but I didn't 
know at the time I answered that question. 

Mr. Burling. You don't bother to find out who your partners are 
when you go into a business? 

Mr. Ricciardi. I had nothing to do with the club because I had a 
share. Mr. Kelly was the originator of the club and he asked me if 
I wanted part of his share. 

Mr. Burling. And you took about a tenth interest in the club? 

Mr. Ricciardi. About that; yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. And Mele also had an interest in the club? 

Mr. Ricciardi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Burling. You didn't bother to find that out. 

Mr. Ricciardi. I didn't know at the time ; no, sir. 

Mr. Burling. Just the same way you didn't bother to find out who 
it was you were charged with having murdered on five occasions ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. I was arrested for murder, but I was never tried 
for it. 

Mr. Burling. But you were arrested on five separate occasions for 
murder, but you didn't bother to find out who you were charged with 
having murdered ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. I was never charged, while 



262 ORGANIZED CRIME, IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Burling. When you were arrested and booked in the police 
station on a charge of murder, that constituted a charge of having 
murdered someone, did it not? 

Mr. RicciARDi. Well, sir, that Avas the custom of the police — arrest- 
ing you and putting a charge against you so they could 

Senator O'Conor. You didn't deny it in Detroit when we asked, 
that you were charged with specific crimes of murder, that is to say, 
that you were alleged to have murdered a given person in each 
instance, and you knew that, did you not? 

Mr. RicciARDi. I was charged, yes; I knew that, but I had never 
gone to court. 

Senator O'Conor. Can you explain to this committee how it was 
you were charged on five separate occasions with different murders 
and never were brought to trial on a single one ? 

Mr. RicciARDi. The only way I can answer that is that probably I 
just was in the wrong places and when the police came and arrested 
everybody, why, they would put a charge against you in order to hold 
you in the police station and then dismissed the charge against you 
after, and let you go. 

Senator O'Conor. Mr. Burling. 

Mr. Burling. Mr. Chairman, the record shows that the witness first 
said he couldn't recall even the arrests, and we said in Detroit it seemed 
inconceivable that a man could be arrested five times on a murder 
charge, several times for armed robbery, at least once for narcotics, 
and the whole thing slip his mind. 

I think we could fairly say further, it is inconceivable, at least to 
me, that he could be a partner of Angelo Mele and not know it until 
this week. 

I have no further questions, however. 

Senator O'Conor. Is there any further statement that you desire 
to make in connection with this? You heard counsel's statement in 
regard to the record that you have and the charges which have here- 
tofore been preferred against you. The counsel's statement is correct, 
is it not, because he understood you to say in Detroit that his state- 
ment of the different offenses was a correct statement? 

Mr. RicciARDi. That was a correct statement, although I had never 
been tried for any of those charges. 

Mr. Hayes. ^Vliile Mr. Ricciardi is here there is only one other 
thing. I spoke to Mr. Burling at — perhaps I am trying to be over- 
meticulous about this, but Mr. Burling asked Mr. Ricciardi had depor- 
tation proceedings ever been instituted against him, and Mr. Ricciardi 
said, "No, sir." And Mr. Burling said again, "Never?" And Mr. 
Ricciardi said, "No." 

And then Mr. Burling made a gratuitous statement on the record' 
to the chairman, in which he said, Mr. Burling, and I quote, "Now, 
it is contrary to the information supplied us by the Immigration 
Service, Mr. Chairman." 

Now Mr. Ricciardi's answer is still "No," but I suppose he should 
amplify it. Within your knowledge ; is that right ? 

Mr. Ricciardi. I do not know at any time that I was consulted about 
it or anything else — deportation proceedings. 



ORGANIZED CRIME, IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 263 

Senator O'Conor. You don't challenge the accuracy of Mr. Bur- 
ling's statement, though, that the information from the immigration 
authorities shows otherwise? 

Mr. Hayes. No ; we wouldn't have any knowledge, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. RicciARDi. To the best of my knowledge, I have never been 
questioned about it. 

Senator O'Conor. We understand. 

Mr. Hates. All right, Mr. Chairman, thank you. 

(Following Mr. Ricciardi's testimony, the committee heard the 
testimony of Alfred Polizzi, Coral Gables, Fla., which is included 
in part 6 of the hearings of the committee ; and Harry Stromberg and 
William Weisberg, Philadelphia, Pa., which testimony is included in 
part 11 of the hearings of the committee.) 

(The hearing was adjourned at 4 : 45 p. m.) 



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Sboifiiig . . . 

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Ncsilcd in the stcnic 
Caialina Foothills 
12 mi. N.E. i)f Tucson 



APPROXIMATELY 75 ACRES 



Cowj'i-h/iiK "I: 



MAIN HOUSE. Kleven Private Guest Rooms, Two Larj-e 
Sun Decks. Large Dining Room and Lounge. Fully 
Equipped Restaurant-size Kitchen, Storerixim, Mod- 
ernly Equipped Laundry and Linen Room, Help's 
Quarters, Three Large Dirt Reserv^)irs, Five Wells, 
New Aluminum 20 x ^0 Hay Barn. Fully Equipped 
Workshop, Corrals. Stables. Tack Room, ' ,, mi. 
Fenced-in Exercise Track. Plenty of well-irrigated land 
for pasture. 








Two Extra I.arye Bedrooms 

Spacious Living Room 

Surv, Porch — Service Porch 

Large mtclicn ^— Tiled BiUhrnom 



Fully Flagstoned Patio 
Large Stone Barbecue Pit 
with Sink and Slab Table 





i;\i:rcisi; track 



MAIN HOUSE ■ LIVING ROOM 



MAIN HOUSE ■ MASTER BEDROOM 



I - 51 - pt. 9 (Face p, 267) No. 2 



w.fff/fm 




DINING ROOM 

Full, :u,„i»i,.a .,„j i:H..4-i- 

I.Dungc in East End 



STORE ROOM 
Iwci Deep Freeze Cabinets 





C.lU;Sr HlDROtlM MllINC ROOM 



t.LtsT BAIIi ROOM and DRESSING tNU 



ELEVEN tlllEST ROOMS 
BEAUTIFULLY FURNISHED 




ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 267 



Exhibit No. 5 



fc«.« 





Home of Pete Licavoli. 



268 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



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Exhibit No. 9 

[H. E. 6286, 80th Cong., 2d sess.] 

A BILL For the relief of Francesea Cammarata 

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatwes of the United States 
of America in Congress assembled, That the Attorney General is authorized and 
directed to cancel the deportation proceedings presently pending against 
Francesea Cammarata, and that the facts upon which such proceedings are based 
shall not hereafter be made the basis for deportation proceedings. 



Exhibit No. 10 





Besidence of Santo Perrone. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



271 






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ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



273 



Exhibit No. 13 

Criminal record, Detroit Police Department, our No. 12997 — Gaspare Perrone 
{white), F. B. I. No. 1023186: M. S. B. No. 213036; alias Ispano Perrone, 
Isbatto Perrone, Jasper Perrone, Perrone Gasper 



Contributor 


Name and Number 


Date 


Charge 


Disposition 


PD, Det., Mich 

Do 


Gaspare Perrone, 

#12997. 
Ispano Perrone, #12997. 
Jasper Perrone, #12997. 
do - 


May 6,1918 

Jan. 12.1920 
Jan. 8, 1931 
Jan. 27,1932 
Dec. 6, 1935 

do 

Jan. 15,1937 

Feb. 19,1937 

Dec. 15,1937 
Oct. 31,1942 

do 


Vio. Draft Law. 

Murder 

Inv. R. A 

Inv. R. A. 

Int. Rev. Law, 
Still— Liquor. 
Poss. of non- 
tax-paid spir- 
its. 
Not given 

Int . Rev. 

Consp. 
Int. Rev. Law. 
Vio. U.S. Code 

Code. 
Vio. U. S. Code. 


May 8, 1918, dis. by 

supt. 
disch by supt. 


Do 


Jan. 9, 1931 dis. no case. 


Do 


Jan. 28, 1931 dis. no case 


rSM, Det., Mich 

Alcohol Tax Unit Det., 
Mich. 

Fed. Det. Farm Milan, 

Mich. 
USP, Leavenworth, 

Kans. 

USM, Det., Mich 

PD, Det., Mich.: 

USM, Det., Mich 


Perrone Gasper, 

#7952. 
Perrone Gasper, 

#ME-611. 

Gaspar Perrone 

Gaspar Perrone, 

#50553. 
Gaspar Perrone, #88.37. 
Jasper Perrone, 

#12997. 
Jasper Perrone. 


6 years USP Leaven- 
worth, Kans. 

6 years. May 17, 1939, 
paroled. 

Nov. 2, 1942 TOT 
USM. 











Exhibit No. 14 

Statement Taken at 1D74 National Bank Building, in the City of Detroit, 
Mich., on Tuesday, June 25, 1946, Commencing at 6 : 55 P. M. 

By : Mr. Ralph Garber, Assistant Prosecuting Attorney. 

Present : Detective Albert DeLaniielleure, special investigation squad ; Detec- 
tive Elroy Beun, grand .jury investigator. 
Reported by : Margaret Cameron, reporter. 

In re : Alleged Assault of Kenneth Morris, Roy Snoivden, et al. 

statement of GRADY WOODSON 

Question by Mr. G.arber as follows : 

Q. Your name is Grady Woodson? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where do you live?— A. 4748 Trumbull Avenue (2740 Elmwood, Apart- 
ment 19 ) . 

Q. And you are employed by whom? — A. Bi'iggs. 

Q. How long have you been employed at Briggs? — A. It will be eleven years in 
•October. 

Q. And are you a member of Local 212? — A. That's right. 

Q. Do you know Fay Taylor? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long have you known him? — A. Well, I have known him I guess prac- 
tically ever since I have been there — seven or eight years anyway, probably. I 
didn't know him the first year I was there. 

Q. He is personnel man in the Briggs? — A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you ever go to one of the Detroit hotels where Fay Taylor was? — A. No. 

Q. Do you know anything about Fay Taylor being a member of the Ku Klux 
Klan? — A. No. 

Q. Do you know anything about him being a member of the Black Legion? — 
A. No, I don't. I couldn't say that. I never see him at any meetings. 

Q. Are you a member of the Ku Klux Klan? — A. I was at one time. 

Q. Did you ever give the information to one of the men when they were nego- 
tiating contracts with Mr. Fay Taylor, to ask him if he rode a white horse and 
carried two guns? — A. I said in front of Fay Taylor one time, yes. 

Q. What does that mean? Is that a pa.ssword or was that a password? — A. I 
don't know if it is or not. 

Q. Was it when you belonged? — A. It was told to me when I went in to get a 
job to say that to him, that it was a password they had. 

Q. Do you know Charlie Spare? — -A. l"es. 



274 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Q. How long have you known Charlie? — A. I don't remember, but I know him — 
I knowed him for a year or two there, back before the war. 

Q. Charlie was interested in the Ku Klux Klan, wasn't he? — A. I think he was. 

Q. You know he was, don't you? — A. Pretty much so. 

Q. You know — who told you to use that expression when you went to get a 
job? — A. Harvey Hanson. 

Q. Who is Harvey Hanson? — A. All I know about him, he's supposed to be some 
kind of helper, officer in the Klan, all I know. I don't know much about the man. 

Q. You got that expression from someone in the Klan, to use that expression 
with Fay Taylor? — A. Yes, sir. 

Judge Murphy. Where do you come from? 

The Witness. Tennessee. 

Judge Murphy. What part? 

The Witness. Murphysboro. 

Judge Murphy. How long have you been up here? 

The Witness. Off and on for 20 years. 

Judge Murphy. Where did you join the Klan? 

The Witness. I believe in 1938 — maybe 1938, I think. I was in there for a 
short while and I got out of it. 

Judge Murphy. Did you join it in Detroit? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Judge Murphy. Where? 
The Witness. Down on 82 Forest, I believe it was West Forest I believe it 
was. 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. That's where the Klan still is? — A. I don't know, 

Q. How long since you have been down there? — A. I haven't been there for 
five or six years. 

Q. Is the Klan still there? — A. I heard it was. 

Judge Murphy. What did you get out of it for? 

The Witness. What? 

Judge Murphy. Why did you leave it? 

The Witness. I just didn't like it, is why I left it. I just didn't like it after 
I got in it. There was several guys at Briggs in it kept wanting me to go over 
and join, and they made me chairman of the Briggs units, and I joined it more or 
less to get supi)(;rt, I guess, in the union, I suppose, is why I joined it. I don't 
know for no other reason. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Was Briggs organized at the time you joined the Klan? — A. Yes. 

Q. Was it being organized or had it already been? — ^A. We was already 
organized in the union at that time. 

Q. You belonged to local 212 at that time? — A. I was, yes. 

Q. After that you joined the Klan? — A. Yes. 

Q. Then you became a steward? — A. Yes. 

Q. And the fellows in the Klan said, "if you come along, join the Klan, we will 
help you be steward." — A. Yes. 

Q. That's why you joined? — A. Yes. 

Q. You being from Tennessee it wasn't too hard to do? — ^A. No, it wasn't in 
my department that time, not too many this time. 

Q. I have been down in that country. Joining the Klan isn't too serious. — A. 
I never heard of it where I came from — never knew anything about it. 

Q. Who were some of these fellows who promoted you after you joined the 
Klan. are they still employed there? — A. I know some of them, but as far as I 
know, the ones I know there are all out of it. They don't have no more to do with 
it as far as I know. 

Q. You took an oath you never belonged to the Klan. You were given this little 
signal to pass on to Fay Taylor, head of the Personnel by the Klan, that is, "do 
you ride a white horse and carry two guns."- — A. I don't think they used that in 
the Klan. I think it's in some other organization. 

Q. It wasn't the Black Legion? — A. No. 

Q. Do you belong to the Black Legion? — A. No. 

Q. How many organizations do you belong to? — A. Local 212. 

Q. You did belong to the Klan. Did you belong to the Legion? — A. No. 

Q. Where did this thing come from, "Do you ride a white horse and carry 
two guns", and that that was going to help you with Fay Taylor? — A, If I 
get it right, and I could be mistaken, if I get it right, this fellow told me it was 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 275 

a Black Legion password. If I am riaht, I wouldn't say I am right — as well 
as I remember that's what he told me, and if I want a job to use it in the office, 
but I didn't get nowhere with it. 

Q. Did you use it? — A. Yes, I used it. 

Q. How did you use it? How did it come about? — A. Well, I was in there 
asking him for a job. 

Q. Were you working at that time? A. Yes, this was at the time — just about 
the end of 1942 production of cars, I believe it was, and I did go in there. He 
was pretty friendly with me in those times. He isn't any more. He's been 
pretty sore at me for a while now. 

Q. What did you do? — A. Well, he didn't call me back when I should when I 
get laid off. 

Q. Well, what did you do that brought about that change? You and he were 
real friendly; now you aren't any more. What brought that about?— A. Well, 
I don't have anytiiing against tlie man personally, myself, although he made me 
lose quite a bit of money when he didn't call me back. This fellow told me, If 
you want to get a job — I was attempting to get a job in the Roosevelt plant, 
I think the day before I got laid off. When I asked him, did a man have to 
ride a white horse and carry a couple of guns, in order to get a job, he looked 
down at the table, got up, went in the other room and came back. 

Q. Did he seem perturbed? — A. No. He said, "I will let you know." He never 
let me know. 

Q. Who is this man that told you to use that? — Harvy Hanson. 

Q. Is he still out there? — A. He never was out there. 

Q. Where did he come from? Where did you meet him? — A. He was also in 
the Klan. 

Q. This was back in 1942? — A. It was some time before that he told me to 
use it. I never did use it till that time and I never used it since. 

Q. Did you ever tell anybody you have got in a safety box or safe place, 
proof, documents to prove that Fay Taylor belonged to either the Black Legion 
or Ku Klux Klan ? — A. No. 

Q. Have you such documents? — A. No. 

Q. Have you such proof? — A. No. 

Q. Are you sure now? — A. No, I never did say he belonged to any organization. 

Q. All right, you say that, but have you any proof he did? — A. No, I have 
no proof of him belonging to anything. No,I do not. 

Q. But this known Klansman, this party known to you as a Klansman told 
you to use that expression to Fay Taylor? — -A. Yes. 

Q. And you did? — A. Yes, I did. 

Q. And it perturbed him enough so he got up from his desk, went in the 
other room, came back, and said he would let you know? — A. He did. 

Q. And he has been off you ever since'? — A. He hasn't had much to do with me 
ever since. 

Q. Do you know of any meeting, or were you at any meeting in any Detroit 
hotel where Fay Taylor was present? — A. No, sir. 

Q. And someone in the next room took down notes of that meeting? — A. No. 
If he was there, I didn't know it. 

Q. Were you at such a meeting where somebody took down notes of what 
happened at a meeting? — A. No. 

Q. Did you tell anybody that".'' — A. No. 

Q. Are you sure now? — A. Yes. 

Q. You read the headlines about Stringari being in jail for contempt of 
court? — A. Yes, I read it last night. 

Q. Tliere's the grand juror sitting right there. Keep that in mind. Did you 
malve such a statement? — A. I never made any statement Fay Taylor was in any 
hotel, any place, because I never seen Fay Taylor out any place except the 
shop. 

Q. Well, do you know of any such meeting where he was there, a Klan meeting 
or Black Legion meeting, or whether you saw him or not, where you knew he 
was there and someone made notes? — A. No. 

Q. Do you know anything about such an affair? — A. No, I never knew him 
being at any meeting I was at. If he was there, I didn't know it. No, I didn't 
know that. 

Q. Do you know anything about these beatings? — ^A. No, sir, I do not. 

Q. Are you still a steward"? — A. Yes, sir. I have been a steward ever since 
1939. 

Q. And you are still a steward? — A. Yes. 



276 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Q. You are still in good standing with the union? — A. That's right. 

Q. Can you give any reason why five beatings took place within the last two 
years, very similar beatings, near their homes, and so forth? — A. No, I can't 
answer that I do. 

Q. Have you any opinion on it? — A. When Roy Snowden got beat up, I just 
thought probably he got drunk and had a fight or something. This other Ken 
Morris, he's a pretty nice fellow, and he didn't take no action in the union 
election at all this time on either side. I was in one group, on one slate. I 
tried to get him to support our slate. He didn't support any slate that I know 
of. I couldn't figure out why. 

Q. Have you heard any rumors about these beatings, why these beatings took 
place? — A. I guess they have talked in the shop, this guy down at the shop, 
you can hear all kinds of rumors, I don't remember much what was said. 

Q. Who were some of the guys that were supposed to have done it? — A. Well, 
you can hear in the shop most anything. 

Q. Did you ever hear Mel Bishop had anything to do with it? — A. No. 
Everybody was wondering who did it. As far as I know, nobody gave an 
opinion who done it. 

Q. Do you know the names that were mentioned? — A. Nobody had no idea who 
done it to this kid. 

Q. Did you ever hear the Klan had anything to do with it? — A. No. 

Q. The Black Legion? — A. No. 

Q. Who are some of these fellows that said, if you join the Klan you will get 
to be steward, and they voted for you? — A. They didn't come out and say that 
they would. They just say they would put me in as chief steward. 

Q. Who were some that induced you to join the Klan? — ^A. Well, I believe 
Jesse Taylor was one of them that asked me to join. 

Q. Who?— A. Jesse Taylor. 

Q. What does he do? — A. I haven't seem him since he went to the army in 
1942, when he left. I haven't seen him since. We went down on automobiles in 
1942. 

Q. Who else?— A. I don't remember now. 

Q. Who took you over to the Klan? You didn't just walk over and join. — 
A. No ; there were two Ponder boys. 

Q. Ponda ? — A. Ponder ; I think it's spelled P-o-n-d-e-r. 

Q. Brothers?— A. Yes. 

Q. Are they from down south? — A. Yes. 

Q. Where do they live? — A. I don't know. 

Q. Are they still at the plant? — A. I don't know if they are or not. Well, 
there's one of them at the plant, but he wasn't the one. There's about five 
or six of those boys. 

Q. Who else do you remember that was in this?— -A. I don't remember now. 
In fact, there's quite a few guys there you know their faces, but I never did 
know their names. A lot of them I worked with ten years, I couldn't give their 
names right now. I talked to them every day and still don't know their last 
names. 

Q. What were their first names, some of the boys that talked to you about 
the Klan? — A. Well, there was quite a few Briggs workers in the oi-ganization. 

Q. In 1942? — A. Well, before 1942. I quit going to meetings before that. 

Q. Did you ever see Charlie Spare around Briggs? — A. No; I never did see 
him around Briggs. 

Q. Where did you get acquainted with him? — A. At Forest Avenue, over 
there. 

Q. Did any of these boys that belong to the Ku Klux Klan ever tell you to 
oppose the union in any way, do anything to injure it, block it in any way'? — 
A. Well, I don't think — the reason I got out of the union, I thought Harvey 
Hanson 

Q. You mean the Klan. You said the union. — A. The Klan, yes — the reason 
I got out of it, he was running the Klan, and it seemed he opposed anybody 
that's union, as far as that's concerned. He wanted the people active in the 
union — he didn't care too much for them, you know. 

Q. Was there ever any suggestions that he's starting any difficulty over 
there, or use any rough tactics against the union? — A. No; as far as I know, 
they wanted everything peaceful. They didn't try any rough stuff, as far as I 
know. 

Q. The Klan didn't advise that? — A. Not to me, no. 



ORGANIZED CRIME- IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 277 

Q. Did yon ever hear them mention Fay Taylor in the Khin's organizations? — 
A. Well, he called him "the old man." He didn't ever mention his name. He 
said, "I will call np the old man." I was at his oflice, and he called Fay Taylor. 

Q. Who called? — A. Harvey Hanson called Fay Taylor. 

Q. He was a Klansman? — A. I don't mean to say he called him as a Klans- 
man. He called him on business. 

Q. He knew him — he meant Fay Taylor, is that right? — A. He called him 
"the old man," that's right. 

Q. Well, what did they talk about? — A. Harvey Hanson was supposed to have 
some job through Fay Taylor in the Klan, so he could place men in different 
plants in the city. He did a pretty good .iob of it. 

Q. Hanson called Fay Taylor and recommended von for a job? — A. No; he 
didn't recommend me for a job. You were speaking about something was 
locked up. some papers or something. That might come in when we was speak- 
ing about — I have spoke about something aboiit that myself. Mel Bishop and 
Whitey Kosmalski was putting people to work out there. 

Q. Let's get that again. — A. Whitey Kosmalski was working with Mel Bishop. 
He was International Regional Director. They were placing people in different 
plants at Briggs. for a political machine. 

Q. Klansmen? — A. No. 

Q. But they were placing people in key spots? — A. Yes. Now, Hanson, I asked 
him, "you're supposed to be so good, why can't you place the men you have in the 
organization here. What's the matter you can't do the same thing?" He said, 
"I can't?" So he had me come over to his office, and we sat there, drank nearly 
a quart of whiskey, the two of us did, and he called Fay Taylor — at least that's 
who he said he was calling. I don't know who was on the other end of the line. 
Fay Taylor wouldn't give any answer, and he called somebody over Fay Taylor. 
He called two or three guys. 

Q. At the plant? — A. I don't know if he called anybody at the plant or not, 
but he called somebody that could tell Fay Taylor what to do. Fay Taylor called 
him. He said to me, "Give me 15 or 20 men and I will put them in the Outer 
Drive plant today." So I did give him a bunch of names. 

Q. These fellows whose names yo-u gave him, were they Ku Klux Klan? — ^A. 
Yes. He told me to meet him OA'er at the hall. I met him over at the hall to 
go over the files with him, and he told me to pick all fellows in my department. 

Q. Who did you go over there with? What hall do you mean, the Ku Klux 
Hall on Forest ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And who went over there with you? — A. I went by myself and met him. 

Q. Who? — A. Harvey Hanson. 

Q. And you picked out 15 or 20 men in your department? — A. I think I picked 
out more than that. He told me to look through the files — they had a box of 
files — and pick out men in my department. I just picked them out as I come to 
them — I don't know the names — the ones with 371 put them on a slip and have 
them all sent over to oiir department. 

Q. Did you get sent over there, too? — A. No, I wanted to go, but I didn't get 
to go. 

Q. The others got to go? — A. Yes. 

Q. You didn't get to go? — A. No. 

Q. Why? — A. I don't know. When I got out of the Klan, he didn't seem to 
care whether I went or not, I suppose. It was about that time when I got out 
of there. 

Q. What was the idea of these men being transferred? What was the idea 
in back of it? — A. Well, there's three or four groups — two or three groups in the 
union, and everybody was trying to get their group elected. It's the worst local, 
I guess, in the United States. 

Q. Is their proposition to beat Mel Bishop? — A. Well. Whitey Kosmalski, Tony 
Czerwinski and myself, and Frankie Kowacki, we were teamed up in a group 
together. 

Q. Who were you fighting? — A. Getting groups together, having Mel Bishop 
put them in the Outer Drive plant. That's where I got so much dope. He was 
working with Taylor, sending men over there, with the union, according to 
seniority, and I turned it over to the president of our local. 

Q. ^lel Bishop was working with Tavlor on some behind-the-scene deals? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. And your group A. It wasn't the Klan, though. 



278 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Q. Your group, this Kosmalski and the rest of them were working, trying to 
get certain men put over there ; Taylor and Mel Bishop were going behind you, 
sending their men over there, is that right? — A. It ain't exactly right, not exactly 
like that. 

Q. All right, what was it? — A. Because Kosmalski was Bishop's right-hand 
man, and we were together trying to get men sent over according to seniority, 
and some men we would pick out to send would never get there, and I went to 

this guy 

Q. "This guy," you mean A. Harvey Hanson, 

Q. And you said you weren't able to get it done, why couldn't you do it ; is 
that it? — A. I asked him — he told me how good he sits with Fay Taylor, I told 
him, "If you stand so good, why can't you get these men sent over there?" He 
said, "I can." He had me come to his office the next day. He had about 100 sent 
over altogether. 

Q. Why did everybody want to get over there? — A. If they got over there this 
way, they didn't have to go to school at 50 cents an hour to learn the trade. The 
company would break you in, pay regular wages. 

Q. You mean ; if the Klan got you sent over there, you didn't have to go to 
school at 50 cents an hour? — ^A'. Once Bishop sent you over, you didn't have to go 
to school. 

Q. Either Bishop or the Klan sent you over ; you got in it full wages? — A. Yes. 
I did this myself, if you get what I mean. I did this long enough till I got the 
dope and took it in and give it to the local union president, in order to stop 
this, so people could go according to seniority. Joe Ferris, he has signed the 
statement I made. He was the notary. I have sworn to that. They took it to 
the International Board to try to throw Bishop off the International, but they 
had an argument on the board and dispersed the whole thing. They never could 
do anything about it. 

Q. Bishop was defeated after that? — A. No: he won. 

Q. What year did this happen, all this we are talking about? — A. This was 
in 1942. 

Q. 1942? — A. I believe — I know it was 1942 — because that was why I was out 
of work five months that year. 

Q. Have you had anybody approach you to rejoin the Klan lately? — A. No; I 
haven't. It's been quite a while. 

Q. How long? — A. It was when I was working on the tanks over there, I think. 
I guess it would be a year ago. 

Q. About a year ago. Do you think there are still certain tnembers of the 
Klan still intermingled through that Briggs plant? — A. I don't think so. A lot 
of these guys know me ; I don't know them, because they did make me chairman 
over there of all the Briggs units. 

Q. Chairman, where? — A. Chairman of the Briggs group. They had a set-up, 
a group in every plant, and a chairman for each plant. 
Q. You were chairman in the Briggs plant? — A. That's right. 
Q. How long were you chairman? — A. Till I got out. 

Q. When did you actually get out? — A. Well, it was the 29th of January, I 
think, 1942, when the plants went down. It was some time before that. 

Q. How did you get out, resign? — A. Just quit going — never went to any 
meetings. 

Q. Quit paying your dues? — A. That's right. 

Q. But within the last year, about a year ago, you were asked to come back 
in again? — A. About a year ago, I think the Klan was out in the country some- 
place ; I think this guy was from — I don't know the guy — but he was working on 
the tanks at that time. He knew me, but it seemed like it was out by Romeo 
somewhere — I don't just know where it was ; Macomb County, I believe it was. 
Q. Now, did these union-promoted men buck the other fellows ; that is. you 
know, did they all stick together and try to promote their own leaders, and so 
forth? — A. Each group did: that was the trouble. 

Q. Well, when you were the chairman of the Briggs, and in the Ku Klux Klan, 
you had certain fellows there you knew who they were; didn't you? — A. Yes. 

Q. And you, in turn, kept them informed so they all stuck together for a certain 
man? — A. That's right. 

Q. Were you for Mel Bishop or against him? — A. I was against him. I was 
against him at the time I was with him. 

Q. In other words, you were with his group, but at the same time you were 
working with the Ku Klux Klan? — A. That's right. I was undermining both 
of them, if you want the truth of it, the Ku Klux Klan and Mel Bishop. 



ORGANIZED CRIME, IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 279 

Q. Who were you pushing for? — ^A. I was for McDonald — Gordon McDonald. 

Q. Do you think these beatings are any hangover from the old Klan set-up — 
A. I don't know ; I don't think so. I don't believe it is. I don't think they are 
•even together enough to do anything, if you want my honest opinion about it. 

Q. How many members were in that Briggs plant? — A. Enough to throw an 
election in 212. I wouldn't know how many. 

Q. Three hundred, five hundred, one thousand? — A. That's something nobody 
knew but the office. 

Q. You knew? — A. No ; nobody knew. That's a secret they kept. I don't 
think they had as many as they made out they had. 

Q. There were supposed to be enough to throw an election. — A. You take eight 
or ten men in each department, it has a lot of influence on an election. 

Q. If they do a lot of talking and working? — A. That's right. 

Q. Is that the way they kept them organized, eight or ten men in each depart- 
ment? — A. As far as I know, there's no organization organizing in any department 
right now. 

Q. No ; I am talking about the Klan deal. Is that the way they operate, put 
eight or ten men in each department, and those men are supposed to get out and 
talk and sway as many men as possible to vote their way? — A. That's right. 

Q. That's their plan of organization? — A. That's the way I got it. 

Q. You were chairman? — A. I was chairman. All I did was take orders from 
Hanson. That's why I got out, because, if anybody voted, he would tell you who 
to vote for. 

Q. You were dominated by the orders of the Klan? — A. I got out because they 
were giving orders who to vote for. He didn't work there. That's why I got 
out. 

Q. How long since you have seen Hanson? — A. I haven't seen him in quite a 
while. 

Q. Do you know where he lives? — A. No. I know where he did live. 

Q. Where did he live? — A. I can't tell you the number of the house, but it's 
on the Boulevard after you pass Packards, in a yellow brick. 

Q. It's where? — A. Maybe it's 181.5 or 15 something; it's the other side of 
■Packards, after you turn the corner going to Belle Isle on the far side of the street 
there. It's a yellow brick, right on the corner. 

Q. You mean it is on the East Grand Boulevard? — A. Yes. 

Q. Just after you turn — after you go by Packards, going to Belle Isle? — A. Yes. 

Q. Which side of the street is it on? — A. On the left .iust after you make the 
turn. It's a big building. I think his wife owned the building. She was a 
married woman, and she owned that place. 

Q. A yellow building? — A. Yes. 

Q. What is it, an apartment house or two flat? — A. Two family and there's an 
apartment in the basement. 

Q. He had the apartment in the basement? — A. No, the main floor. 

Q. The first floor? — A. But I was told he was up in northern Michigan run- 
ning a beer garden now. I don't know. I heard he was. 

Q. What office did this Hanson hold in the Ku Klux Klan? — A. I can't even 
pronounce those. Once of them was kleagle. 

Q. Was he a kleagle? — A. I don't know what he was. He was in there for 
the Manufacturers Association, I think. I think that was his .iob. 

Q. You mean the Manufacturers Association? — A. I think it is. I think so. 
I am not sure. But that's the way it looked to me. Anyway, he introduced me 
to some guy from Chicago that came to his house, was the president — what's 
the guy's name — the president of the Manufacturers Association? 

Q. It wasn't John Lovett.- — A. Yes. 

Q. Was John Lovett there? — A. Yes. 

Q. Did you meet John Lovett at this guy's house? — A. He told me who it was. 
He had a wreck that day ; his car was being fixed. He was at his house. He 
told me that's who it was. 

Q. Do you know anything about the salvage set-up at Briggs? — A. Which? 

Q. Who buys the salvage or anything at Briggs? — A. No; I don't. 

Q. Do you know whether there's any of those factions, either the Ku Klux Klan 
or Black Legion, or anything, that are still sort of operating in the departments 
there? — A. I don't think they are any more at all. I don't think they are. 

Q. What sales talk did you get to re.ioin a year ago when you were ap- 
proached ? — A. I was just invited out to a meeting. 

Q. Oh, a meeting. That meeting, though, was not a local Ku Klux Klan? — 
A. No. 



280 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COIVIMERCE 

Q. That was out near Romeo? — A. Yes. 

Q. Is that man still there? — A. I don't know if he is or not. I haven't seen 
him since before the war was over. We was working on tanks. He was in 
that department then, but I don't know if he is there now or not. 

Q. Do you know what that man's name is? — A. No; I don't know what his- 
name is. I know him if I see him. I have seen him quite a few times. 

Q. How did he come up to you and ask you? — A. He knew I had been in there. 
Being a chairman a lot of guys knew me I didn't know. I suppose. 

Q. Oh, I see. When you were chairman A. I suppose they knew my 

name. 

Q. Did you ever carry any information back to Taylor of what went on in 
the meetings? — A. No, sir. 

Q. Have you ever been accused of heini: a bird dog in there for Taylor? — 
A. Never, that I know of. 

Q. Well, are you guilty of it? — A. No ; I am not guilty. 

Q. Well, you were playing both sides to the middle in 1042. Are you still? — - 
A. I did go to Taylor to find out if he was putting anybody to work over that 
password. If he did, I don't know. If he did or not, he didn't put me to 
work. 

Q. When did you pull that on him? — A. That was in 1042, I think. It was in 
January, a day or two before we went down on automobiles. 

Q. Now, everything you have told me is the truth? — A. Pardon? 

Q. You have told me the truth about what you have told me, what this girl 
is taking down? — A. Everything I said is true, as far as I know. If I make 
a statement and the date is wrong, you can get me, because I can't remember 
dates too well. 

Q. You have told it all of your own free will, not becau.se of any force or 
duress? — A. That's right. 

Mr. Garber. I think that's all. 



State of Michigan 

IN THE CIRCUIT COVRt FOR THE COrNTY OF WAYNE 

(Misc. No. 720.52) 

In Re Petition of Oerahl K. O'Brien. Prosecuting Attorney of Wayne County, 
for a One-Man Grand Jury Investigation into the commission of certain crimes 
in the County of Wayne 

Proceedings had and testimony taken in the above-entitled matter before 
Honorable George B. Murphy, Circuit Judge, sitting as a One-Man Grand Jury, 
at 1974 National Bank Building, in the Citv of Detroit, Michigan, on Monday, 
February 10th, 1947. 

Present : Mr. Ralph Garber, Special Assistant Attorney General. 

Reported by : Margaret Cameron. Reporter. 

Santo Perrone, being by the Court first duly sworn, was examined and testi- 
fied as follows : 

Examination by Mr. Garber: 
Q. What is your name? — A. Santo Perrone. 
Q. Where do you live, Mr. Perrone? — A. 869 Beaconsfield. 
Q. How old are you? — A. 51 years old. 
Q. Where were you born? — A. Italv. 
Q. Italy or Sicily?— A. Sicily. 
Q. And where in Sicily? — A. Alcamo. 
The Court. How do you pronounce it? 
The Witness. Alcamo. 
The Court. How do you spell it? 
The Witness. I can write it — say it. 
The Court. Alcamo. How near Palermo is it? 
The Witness. About 20 miles from Palermo. 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. What month, what day were you born? — A. The 25th of December, you 
know. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 281 

Q. December 25th? — A. 25th, you know: Christmas month, you know. 

Q. Christmas day?— A. Yes; 1895. 

The Court. On Christmas day? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. Santa Claus brought you? 

The Witness. That's right. 

Tlie Court. What did he do, come down the chimney? 

The Witness. He must. 

By Mr. Garber : 
Q. Have you any brothers or sisters? — A. No sister. Used to be four brothers — 
tw^o die and two living. 

The Court. There is two now and one more? 

The Witness. I got one more brother. 

Tlie Court. That's the end of the family? 

The Witness. That's right — no father, no mother — all dead. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. What were your brothers" names, all of them? — A. My brothers' names, 
the one died now a year ago is Matthew Perrone, Melchiarre Perrone, and Gasper 
Perrone. 

Q. What are they again? — A. Matthew, Melchiarre, Gasper, and myself, Santo 
Perrone. 

Q. AVho is the oldest? — A. Gasper is the oldest. 

Q. Then you? — A. Melchiarre is older and Matthew was younger. 

Q. Was Gasijer older or younger than you? — A. Gasper was 2 years older. 

Q. You are younger? — A. Two years younger than Gasper. 

Q. When did you come to this country? — A. It must be 1912, I think. 

Q. How far did you go in school?— A. I never w'ent to school in this country. 

Q. Did you ever go to school in Sicily? — A. In Sicily, yes. 

Q. How far did you go? — A. I went to the third grade. 

Q. And you never went to school in this country? — A. Never. I working all 
the time. 

Q. And you came here, you think, in 1012? — A. 1912. 

Q. How did you come into this country? — A. I got passport and I come in. 

Q. Did you come right to this country? — A. I come right to New York — New 
York, come to Detroit. 

Q. And you have been living in Detroit ever since? — A. Living in Detroit ever 
since. 

Q. How did you happen to come to Detroit? — A. My brother, he come to De- 
troit 3 years before me. you know. 

Q. Which one? — A. Gasper. 

Q. So you came over here and landed in New York? — A. Landed in New York 
and come right to Detroit. 

Q. Were you married then? — A. I was a kid, you know. 

Q.. How old? — A. Must be around 16 years old. 

Q. Who did you live with here? — A. What? 

Q. Who did you live with after you came to Detroit? — A. I went to get a 
room with some Italian people my father used to know in the old country. They 
come to this country. I got a room. 

Q. What were their names? — A. I don't remember. It's a long time ago. 

Q. Someone your father had known in the old country? — A. Yes. 

Q. Did you ever live with Gasper? — A. Yes. 

Q. When did you go to live with Gasper? — A. I was living with Gasper on 
McDongall Avenue. 

Q. What year was that? — A. Well, I don't remember the year. I live with 
Gasper about 10 years on McDongall. 

Q. Wiiat number on McDougall? — A. 3950. 

Q. Is he still living over there? — A. No. 

Q. When did he move there? — A. I move from there around 1934, 1933. I 
don't really remember : to Gmsse Pointe. 

Q. What work did you first do when you got here? — A. Detroit Stove AVorks. 

Q. You started to work A. I started— mv first job was in Detroit Stove 

Works. 

Q. And you are still working for Detroit Stove Works?— A. Still working for 
Detroit Stove Works. 

Q. What did you start to do? — A. Coremaker. 



282 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Q. When you were sixteen? — A. Yes. 

Q. Who hii-ed you then — A. Some of the men at the gate. I don't remember. 

Q. When did you meet John Fry? — A. Oh, I know John Fry when he used 
to bring time sheets in the factory. He used to be mail boy, you l^now. 

Q. How old wa.s John?— A. John? 

Q. Yes. — ^A. He r as a little older than me. 

Q. You are 51. How old is he, 53?— A. Must be 56, 57. 

Q. He was time boy, and you were working as a coremaker? — A. Yes. 

Q. You and he, you were good friends at that time? — A. Well, I used to 
know him, see. 

Q. You knew him. So how long did you work as a coremaker? — A. I work 
coremaker a little better than 26, 27 years. 

Q. And when did you get the salvage contract over there? — A. I got it 1934, 
'33 — I don't remember — around that time. 

Q. You got it after that strike over there, didn't you? — A. No. I don't re- 
member if I got it after or before. 

Q. Well, you got it after that strike, didn't you? — 'A. What strike? 

The Court. Think hard. 

By Mr. Gakbee: 

Q. You know what strike I am talking about. — A. I ain't got anything to 
do with any strike. 

Q. All right. When did they have the strike at the Detroit Stove Works, the 
MESA?— A. I don't know if it was 1934 or '33— around that. 

Q. Yes. After that strike is when you got your salvage contract, was it? — 
A. Well, I ask them for the contract, and they give it to us. 

Q. Yes, after the strike, or during the strike, or right after the strike is when 
they gave you the salvage contract? — A. Well, I don't remember what day they 
gave it to us. 

Q. I am not asking the day. I am asking if you didn't get it right after the 
strike or during the strike. — A. I don't remember, to tell you the truth. 

The Court. You understand you are under oath? 

The Witness. What? 

The Court. You understand you are under oath? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. Also bear in mind we know a lot of facts about what we are going 
to ask you. 

The Witness. I don't know what you are going to ask. Whatever I understand, 
I will be glad to answer you. 

The Court. We are not going to ask you any questions unless we think we 
know the answers. Now, the attorney general is asking you whether you got 
the scrap contract during the strike or before the strike. 

The Witness. Tell you the truth, I don't remember if I got it before or after 
the strike. I don't remember. 

The Court. Well, if John Fry said you got it that time, would that be right? 

The Witness. Well, whatever John Fry say must be right, because he look on 
the book when I got it. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Did they give you the salvage that time? — A. Well, I don't remember when 
they give me the salvage. 

Q. Did you pay for it?— A. The stuff? 

Q. The salvage, yes. — A. Sure, I pay. 

Q. When they gave it to you, you paid for it — A. I pay all the time. 

Q. How much did you pay when you first got it? — A. $1, $1.50. I don't really 
remember whether it was $1 or $1.50. 

Q. You did pay something for the salvage? — A. Yes. 

Q. They didn't give it to you ? — A. No, they don't give it to me. 

Q. Who got that contract, you and your brother or who? — A. I guess they gave it 
to both of us. I don't know. 

Q. Which brother? — A. Gasper and I used to have. 

Q. Your other brother worked there? — A. Who? 

Q. Gasper works there. — A. He work there 40 years. I guess still work there. 

The Court. How about your other brother? 

The Witness. One brother worked there, Matthew, for 10 years. He died. . 

The Court. Last year? 

The Witness. Last year. The other brother never work there. He was con- 
tractor, building homes. He was only one year in the country and died. 



ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 283 

The Court. He was a younger brother? 

The Witness. After me. See, Gasper is the oldest, I am after Gasper, Melchi- 
arre was after me and Matthew is younger. 
The Court. The third one died? 
The Witness. The third one died. 
The Court. After one year? 
The Witness. Yes. 
The Court. What did he die of? 
The Witness. Appendicitis. He had operation and died. 

By Mr. Garber : 
Q. So Gasper is the oldest, and then you, and the two youngest are dead. — A. 
Yes. 

The Court. No, the middle one — 

The Witness. The two youngest are dead. The two older ones living. 

By Mr. Garber : 
Q. That's you and Gasper? — A. Yes. 
The Court. That's right. Excuse me. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. You got this contract and it was after you got the contract you moved away 
from Gasper's house? — A. No, I stay with Gasper ten years. 

Q. When did you move away from Gasper's house? — A. I don't remember. I 
live 15 years in Grosse Pointe. That's when I moved. 

Q. Well, you moved away about 1933 or '34 from Gasper's house, didn't you tell 
us?— A. No. 

Q. When did you move away? — A. I don't really remember. 

Q. When did you get married? — A. 1921. 

Q. Who did you marry? — A. Ida Perrone. 

Q. What's her maiden name? — A. Ida — I will write — Calcogna. 

The Court. We had better give Sam a little desk here. 

The Witness. That's right. What can I do if I can't read or write? 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. What relation is your wife to August Gentile? — ^A. Uncle — he is brother of 
my mother-in-law. 

Q. In other words, you married August Gentile's niece?— A. That's right. 

Q. How old is your wife? — A. My wife must be — I am eleven years older than 
she is. I am 51. She must be around 41. 

The Court. How old was she when you were married? 

The Witness. About 17, a young girl. 

The Court. You are eleven years older? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. You pick them young? 

The Witness. Yes, sure. All old guys like the young girls. 

The Court. Did he say when he was married? 

The Witness. 1921. 

The Court. Where? 

The Witness. Detroit. 

The Court. Did you have a big party? 

The Witness. Sure, certainly. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. What business were your wife's folks in? — A. My father-in-law work in 
Ford Motor plant 32, 33 years. 

Q. He's a Ford employee? — A. Ford employee. 

Q. What does he do?— A. Works. 

Q. Was he in the service department or working A. What do you mean, 

service department? 

Q. What kind of work did he do? — A. I don't know what kind of work he does. 
I know he work at Ford. I don't know. I never ask what he did. Maybe shop, 
truck. 

The CotTRT. Was he on the line where they put the cars on the line? 

The Witness. I can't tell you. I never ask what he do for Ford's. 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. He worked for Ford's for a long time? — A. Then he work in Stove Company. 
Q. What stove company? — A. Detroit Stove Company. 



284 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Q. When did he go to work for the Stove Company? — A. Oh, I don't know. 
1935 or '36, something; like that. 

Q. A little while after the strike? — A. No, later, after he got laid off at Ford's, 
I got him a job at the Stove Works. 

The Court. When? 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. 1934 or 1935? — A. I don't remember the day. 

Q. When did you get Gentile his job out there? — A. I don't get his job. He come 
over there. He got the job. 

Q. You introduced him to the employment man, didn't you? — A. Why, sure. 

Q. That helped him get a job? — A. I don't know how he got the job. A lot of 
Italians I introduce him to get him a job. 

Q. You got quite a few Italians introduced over at the Stove Works to get a 
job? — A. Sure. 

Q. After the strike? — A. Not after the strike. Now I introduce people. 

Q. How many Italians work for the Stove Works? — A. I can't tell you. 

Q. Well, you guess. — A. I know worked a lot of them — there be a lot of them — 
around four or five hundred. 

Q. How many did you introduce to get jobs? — A. A lot of them I don't introduce 
them. It's got to be a fellow I know, you know. He come ask me ; I come ask 
the watchman, "Got any chance, give liim a break, if you got any jobs." 

Q. Well, out of the four or five hundred Italians working at the Stove Works, 
how many did you introduce to help get their job? — A. I tell you, I don't remem- 
ber. I know a lot of them I introduce to get a job. 

Q. A lot of these Italians of the four or five hundred you introduced to get 
tlie job? — A. Not four or five luindred. 

Q. A lot of them? — A. A lot of them, sure. 

Q. Do any of them work for Gasper? — A. Italians? 

Q. Yes. — A. Sure, some of them work for Gasper. 

Q. Do any of them work for you? — A. Sure. 

Q. You pay them? — A. Sure. It's working for me. 

Q. And some of them are working for the company?— A. If they want to 
work for m^e, I pay them. If they want to work for the company, the company 
pays. 

Q. How many work for you? — A. I got — ^well, seven or eight. 

Q. How many work for Gasper? — A. He got a lot, around 20, 22, 25, working 
for him. 

Q. Mostly all Italians? — A. No; most all colored. 

Q. What plant';' — A. The core room, Jefferson Avenue. 

Q. The rest of them are on the payroll of the company? — A. Who? 

Q. The rest of the four or five hundred Italians. — A. S'ure. 

Q. Do they have a union over there? — A. Where? 

Q. At Michigan Stove Works. — A. Sure : got a union. 

Q. What is it, a company union — A. No ; got American Federation of Labor 
union. 

Q. Did they ever have a company union? — A. I never heard about it. 

Q. Weren't you an oflicer of the union? — A. No; I never been an officer of the 
union. I belong to the union. 

Q. What union do you belong to? — A. American Federation of Labor. 

Q. Are you an officer? — A. No ; not an officer. 

Q. What local is it, Sam.?— A. Local 31. 

Q. What union? — A. Molders union, they call it. You have to be union when 
you work in the core room. 

Q. When did you join the union? — A. I join the union 23 or 24 years ago. 

Q. When did the INIESA get in there? — A. I never heard of it. 

Q. Who struck out there in 1934?— A. I don't know. I heard about it. 

Q. Well, the MESA, wasn't it?— A. I don't know. It might be American Fed- 
eration of Labor. 

The Court. You know what he is talking about when he says MESA? 

The Witness. Well, call them Federation, MESA, call them MES'A, CIO — 
I don't understand much about it. 

The Court. CIO, AFL, and MESA? 

The Witness. It's two different things — I don't understand much. 

By Mr. Garrer : 
Q. But you do know somebody had a strike out there in 1934? — A. Well, they 
had a strike — none of my business. 



ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 285 

Q. Didn't yoii make it your business? — A. I no had anytliing to do. I was 
worlving overtime in the core room. 

Q. You kept right on working if there was a strike or not? — A. Well, I be- 
long to American Federation of Labor. We have no trouble. We was working, 
making cores. 

The Court. I know a lot about that coremaking. 

The Witness. So do I. 

The Court. Because I had an uncle was a coremaker. 

Tlie Witness. All my life I been a coremaker. 

The CoTTRT. Maybe I can tell you something about coremaking. 

The Witness. You better go out there, make some cores, your honor. See who 
goes faster. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. When did you get the trucking contract.? — A. I don't remember — 1934 or 
1933, something like that. 

Q. Did you get the salvage contract and trucking contract about the same 
time? — A. I guess we got the whole thing the same time. I don't remember 
sure. 

Q. When did you go to jail?— A. 1936. 

Q. About two years later. What for? — A. I make a little moonshine. I was 
making three days a week. I can't support my family, keep my home. I went to 
make a little moonshine and got in jail. 

Q. You couldn't support your family? You had a salvage contract and truck- 
ing contract and had to make moonshine to pay your expenses? — A. Well, I want 
to pay my home. 

The Court. When did you buy your home? Is that the one you bought in 
Grosse Pointe? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Did you buy that liome when you first went out to Grosse Pointe? 

The Witness. Yorkshire. 

The Court. What's that number? 

The Witness. 1210, I guess. 

The Court. Near what side street is that? 

The Witness. Kercheval. 

The Court. Did Gasper also buy a house there? 

The Witness. He built one on the corner next to me. 

Tlie Court. The corner of Kercheval? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. And Yorkshire? 

The Witness. Next to me. He built next to me. 

The Court. He was on the corner? 

The Witness. He was on the corner. I was next door. 

The Court. How many feet front did you have? 

The Witness. I don't remember. 

The Court. They are pretty big lots? 

The Witness. Long lots. 

The Court. What is the street behind you? 

The Witness. I tell you. I don't remember — Bishop, something like that. 

The Court. Did you build that house? 

The Witness. I built the house. 

The Court. What did it cost you? 

The Witness. $11,000. 

The Court. How many rooms? 

The Witness. I had four bedroom upstairs, and three room down downstairs. 

Tlie Court. And you built it in 1934? 

Tlie Witness. 19;i4, 19.33, something like that. 

The Court. ,$11,000? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. You got out of it pretty cheap, didn't you? 

The Witness. That time was cheaper. 

The Court. It was a cheap time to build? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. You couldn't build it for $11,000 now? 

The Witness. I am sorry I sell for $15,000. 

The Court. When did you sell? 
G8958— 51— pt. 9 19 



286 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. A couple of years ago. 

The Court. What time, 1945? 

The Witness. I don't remember the right date. 

The Court. Well, we would like to have that, Sam. 

The Witness. Well, as soon as I live in Beaconsfield. 

The Court. When did you go on Beaconsfield? 

The Witness. I don't remember if it's two years, two and a half years, some- 
thing like that. 

The Court. Well, did you buy the place on Beaconsfield? 

The Witness. I buy six, seven years ago, you know. 

The Court. You bought it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. You owned it six or seven years ago? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. That's a 2-flat? 

The Witness. Two-flat, income bungalow, you know. 

The Court. You live downstairs? 

The Witness. I live downstairs. 

The Court. Who lives upstairs? 

The Witness. My son-in-law. 

The Court. What's his name? 

The Witness. Carl Renda. 

The CoxTRT. Oh, Carl Renda, he lives upstairs? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. You bought that five or six years ago? 

The Witness. Wait a minute. I bought it 1939. 

The Court. You had tenants? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. When you sold the Yorkshire house 

The Witness. I move over there. 

The Court. You moved over to Beaconsfield? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. That number is what? 

The Witness. 869. I- got another home on Townsend, you know. 

The Court. S69 is near what side street? 

The Witness. I don't know the street, you know. 

The Court. Don't you know the street nearest to you? 

The Witness. It's hard for me to say the name of the street. I never look 
at the corner of the street. 

By Mr. Garber: 
Q. You have been living there 2^/^ years? 
The Witness. Yes. 
The Court. You're so busy, Sam. 

The Witness. I can't read the street — some street, like you say. Canton, Con- 
cord, it's just like Italian, I could remember. 
Tlie Court. This is off the record. 
(Discussion off the record.) 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. Do you drive a truck? — A. Sure. 

Q. How do you find your way around town if you drive a truck and can't read, 
the streets? — A. Well, I ask the people if I can't read the streets. 

Q. Did you ever ask the people what cross street is near your house? — A. I 
never bothered. I know I go down Jefferson Avenue, go right home. 

Q. You don't know what streets your house is between? — A. No. 

Q. Which side of the street is your house on? — A. I go down to Jefferson— it's 
this side. It's the right side. 

The Court. You go down to Jefferson? 

The Witness. I go down to Jefferson, turn right — the right side. 

By ISIr. Garber: 

Q. You turn on Jefferson towards the river? — A. I turn on Jefferson, turn to 
the right, alongside the right. 

Q. How far is it from the river? — A. Oh, it's a good long way — oh, the river 
is away in, see. 

The Court. You are near Jefferson? 

The Witness. Near Jefferson. There's a school in there. It's close to the 
schoolhouse, see. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 287 

By INIr. Garber : 

Q. When did your daughter get married? — A. What daughter? 

Q. To Carl Renda. — A. Carl Renda? Got married around three years ago, 1 
think. 

Q. What was Carl doing then? — A. He was working. 

Q. Where? — A. Some factory, making — of course, I don't know where he was. 

Q. American Twist Drill — National Twist Drill? — A. That's what I heard. 
See, it's hard for me to say that word he just said. 

Q. How long did he work at National Twist Drill? — A. I tell you, I don't know. 
I know he work there while he is engaged to my daughter. If he work before, 
I don't know. 

Q. When did he go in the scrap business? — A. I don't know. I don't remember. 

Q. How much money did you loan him? — A. I loan him $32,000. 

Q. When did you loan him that? — A. I loan him once $5,000, once I loan him 
$9,000, and then" I gave him $18,000, see. 

Q. When did you do that? — A. Well, $5,000 I loaned him a couple of years 
ago, see, and then he ask me for another $9,000, and I gave it to him, see. I don't 
remember the day. 

Q. Yes, and then when did he get the $18,000?— A. I gave him the $18,000 last. 
He bought some trucks, asked me if I could lend him some money and told my 
daughter — my daughter beg me, so I give it to him. 

Q. So he has $32,000 of your money?— A. Sure. 

Q. What have you got to show for it? — A. I got a paper — made a pai)er, see. 

Q. What did he give you, a demand note? — A. What do you mean, demand 
note? 

Q. You can ask him for the money any time you want it and he will pay it? — ■ 
A. If he got it, he will. After all, he's my son-in-law. I know he's a good boy. 
He don't go gamble, drink, stuff like that. I see he's a very nice boy. I give 
him anything he wants. 

0. Did you know his father? — A. No. 

Q. You didn't know his father. What's his father's name? — A. I know his 
father, Renda, it is his name. I know his uncle. 

Q. You know his uncle. What does he do? — A. He's a sick man. He don't 
do anything. 

Q. Isn't he a gambler? — A. He used to be a gambler; yes. 

Q. Still is? — A. I don't see him do no gambling. He's a sick man. 

The Court. What's his first name? 

The Witness. Jim Renda. 

The Court. What does he do? 

The Witness. He lives in Canada. 

The Court. What place? 

The Witness. I know the house. To tell you about the street, I don't know. 

The Court. Does he live in Walkerville. AVindsor? 

The Witness. He lives in Windsor, away out, 10, 12, 15 miles out from 
Windsor. 

The Court. In the country? 

The Witness. In the country. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Where did he have a gambling joint, in Windsor? — A. Yes; he used to 
have a gambling joint in Windsor. 

Q. What happened to Carl Renda's father? — ^A. I don't know. I heard a long 
time ago he got killed. 

Q. Where? — A. That time people get killed inside the county jail. 

Q. AVell, he did get killed inside the county jail. What gang did he belong 
to? — A. I don't know. 

Q. But he did get shot in the county jail; is that right? — A. That's what I 
heard. 

Q. Well, that's what you know. You lived in Detroit all your life? — A. Sure. 
Not all my life. 

Q. Pretty near all your life? — A. I don't know his business. 

Q. You knew that when Carl married your daughter, didn't you? — A. Sure, I 
know. 

Q. Well, sure. Why fish around about it. You're very fussy about who your 
daughter goes out with. You didn't even let your daughter go out alone, unless 
she was chaperoned. — A. I don't let my daughter go out alone, certainly. 

Q. You were certainly going to find out who she married. — A. Certainly. I 
find out he's a good boy, been going to school, college. 



288 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Q. And you find out what his father is, too. — A. I have no business about his 
father. 

Q. You find out about his uncle. You knew his uncle? — A. Sure, I knew his 
uncle. 

Q. Let's not quibble. He got mai'ried about three years ago. They have a 
baby boy? — A. He's got a baby 20 months old. 

The CoxTRT. You're a grandfather? 

The Witness. I am a grandfather, sure. I enjoy that little kid. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. You gave away cigars when you were a grandfather? — A. Certainly. 

Q. How long have you known Art Glover? — A. Oh, I know Art Glover 30 
years or more. 

Q. How did you meet Art? — A. He used to work in the foundry, Detroit Stove. 

Q. Did he work with you? — A. I work in the core room, he works in the 
foundry. I used to go in the foundry every day, bring the cores in. 

Q. Are you and Art good friends? — A. Sure. 

Q. Does he go hunting with you every year? — A. No, just two years he goes 
hunting. 

Q. What two years did he go? — A. Last year and this year. 

Q. You mean he went in 1046? — A. Last year he come over, and he don't 
have any hunting clothes, you know. 

Q. How long did he stay? — A. Two days, I guess. 

Q. Two days up at Cummings? — A. Yes. 

Q. The year before he went up there, 1945? — A. 1945. 

Q. Did he go up hunting that time? — A. No, he came up, he and Sheehy, 
the big fellow. 

Q. Where? — A. Up to my cabin. 

Q. How long did they stay in 1945?— A. A couple of days, I think. 

Q. Was that after Mrs. Thompson was killed? — A. That's right. 

Q. You saw Art at the time you were being questioned by the police in tne 
Thompson killing?— A. See who? 

Q. Art Glover. — A. Well, Art Glover come over to me, see, took me to the 
Pontiac people, see. 

Q. Is that when you invited Art to come up hunting? — A. No. I don't invite. 
They come up themselves. 

Q. They stayed how long? — A. A couple of days. 

The Court. Did they get any game? 

The Witness. What's his name took a gun, went in back of the cabin and shot 
a buck. 

The Court. Who? 

The Witness. The other fellow, took one of my shotguns. He went back of 
my house, run a couple or three hundred feet and shot a deer. He hollered for 
help. The boys run and help him bring it in. 

By Mr. Garber : 
Q. Was it hanging in a tree? — A. No. He shot it. He was very happy. 
Q. What kind of shells do you use in your shotgun? — A. Bullets. 
Q. They came up to your place and didn't even have a gun? — A. No; no gun. 
Q. Did they have hunting clothes? — A. No. We give them a coat, you know. 
It wasn't so cold. 
The Court. That was 1945? 
The Witness. Yes. 

By Mr. Garber : 
Q. November 1945?— A. Yes. 

Q. Art Glover's wife is an Italian girl? — A. That's what they told me. 
Q. Do you know his wife?— A. Never talked to her. 
Q. Do you know his wife? — A. Sure, I know. 
Q. Were they over to your wedding a week ago? — A. No. 

Q. Were they over to Carl's wedding?^A. Sure. Wait a minute. They was 
going to come to my wedding. They was in Florida. He called me up. 
The Court. Your own wedding? 
The Witness. My daughter's wedding a week ago Saturday. 

By Mr. Garbee : 
Q. Did you invite Art and his wife? — A. Sure, I invite him. 
-Q. He's a good friend of yours? — A. He's a good friend. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 289 

Q. Did you ever give him any money? — A. Never. He never asked for any 
money. 

Q. Did you ever give Sheriff Thomas any money? — A. I never give anybody 
any money. 

Q. What did you^ffer this fellow $500 for when he caught you with the gun 
in the car?— A. Who? 

Q. You know who. — A. I never offer him no $500. 

Q. What did you offer?— A. Nothing. What gun? 

Q. The one you were trying to get back last week. — A. Oh, I never offer him 
no $uOO. 

Q. How much were you fined out there? — A. About $52, something like that. 

Q. Why did you offer him .$500? — A. I never offer him no $500. He says to 
me, "I going to give you six montlis." The gun is jammed. I can't use it, and 
the manufacturer of the gun, I wanted to take it back and show it's not work- 
ing. He said, "I got to take you down." I said, "Why take me down? I could 
put bond four or five hundred, and go. I will be up there." He said, "I got 
to take you down." I said, "Lefs go." I don't give no money. 

Q. You offered it to him? — A. I don't know for nothing. 

The Court. Who was it ? 

The Witness. Some game warden. 

By Mr. GarbeR : 

Q. Who were the two guys that got away? — A. Nobody got away. 

Q. There were three in that car. Two got away. You got caught. Now, who 
were the two guys in the car? — A. I don't know any other two guys. 

Q. They got out and run. — A. He don't run. There was a fellow was in the 
army— — 

Q. How were you shooting out the window out there for pheasants? — A. I 
don't shoot out the window for pheasants. 

Q. What did you shoot out the window for? — A. I don't shoot nothing. 

Q. Who did? 'who was?— A. I don't shoot. 

Q. Who was hunting with you out by Mount Clemens that day?— jA. A friend 
of mine. 

Q. Who? — A. I don't know the name. It's an American fellow. He always go 
with me. He come in the gas station. 

Q. Was it Art?— A. Who? 

Q. Art Glover. — A. No ; Art Glover never go out, .shoot through the window. 

Q. Was he out hunting with you that day? — A. What day? 

Q. The day lie got arrested, October 14, 1946. — A. No; another fellow was 
with me. 

Q. Gasper? — A. No ; my brother never go hunting. 

Q. Who were those two fellows in the car that day? — A. A friend of mine. 
I don't rememlier his name. An American fellow come in the gas station. I don't 
know his name. I know when I see him. 

The Court. Was it this fellow here? 

The AViTNESs. No. 

The Court. Any of these officers? 

The Witness. No. 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. How often does he come to your gas station? — A. All the time he come 
to the gas station. 

Q. You don't know his name. Do you know where he lives? — A. I don't 
know where he lives. He lives some place on Concord. 

Q. How far is that from your gas station? — A. Oh, a block. 

Q. What is his first name? — A. They call him Dick. I don't know his last 
name. 

Q. What number does he live on Concord? — A. I don't know the ninnber. 

Q. Near what cross street? — A. Cross street? 

Q. Yes. Near what other street? — A. Oh, he lives between Lafayette and 
Jefferson. 

Q. On Concord? — A. Yes; on Concord. 

Q. Which side of the street? — A. I never ask him if he be to left or right. 

Q. You have been to his house? — A. Wait a nainute. On the left — go off Jef- 
ferson, on the left side. 

Q. When you turn off Jefferson, it's on the left side? — A. Yes. 

Q. How many doors from Jefferson? — A. I never coimt it, see. 

Q. You have been over to his house? — A. I don't know — once or two times. 



290 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Q. You could take us to his house? — A. What? 

Q. You could take a policeman to his house? — A. Oh, yes, yes. 

Q. His name is Dick? — A. Yes. 

Q. How long have you known him? — A. I know him a long time. 

Q. How long? — A. Maybe 25 years. 

Q. You have known him 25 years and you don't know him name. Now, 
what's his name? — A. Dick. 

Q. Dick what? — A. I don't know his last name. 

Q. Do you want to go to jail? — A. I don't want to go to jail. 

Q. Or the door is standing right open right now. — A. Well, they call him 
Dick all the time ; I don't knovs^ his name. 

The Court. Now, Sam, you are too smart 

The Witness. I am not too smart. I tell you the name if anybody wants to 
tell me. 

Mr. Garber. All right, what's Dick's name? 

The Court. Will you go with the officers out to the house? They will take 
you out and bring you back. 

The Witness. Sure ; I will be glad to take you out, show you. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. You don't know his name?— A. I know his name is Dick. 

Q. He lives there now? — A. Yes; he lives there now. 

Q. He's the guy who was in the car with you when you were arrested for 
having a gun in the car? — A. That's the guy with me. I ain't got arrested. I 
was talking to the guy. The guy walk away and went. 

Q. Who was the other guy? — A. I don't know any other guy. That's the 
guy I had with me. 

Q. Whose gun was it? — A. My gun. 

Q. How many guns have yoii got? — A. Oh, I got half a dozen guns, .22 rifle, a 
rifle for deer, I got three shot automatic, 5-shot automatic. 

Q. A shotgun? — A. Shotgun. 

Q. What«iiake? — A. I don't remember. One is Remington, I remember. 

Q. Which one is a Remington? — A. .3-shot. 

Q. What is the 5-shot? — A. I don't know if it's Remington or Winchester. 

Q. Does Winchester make an automatic? — A. I don't know if it's Remington 
or Winchester. 

Q. You are proud of your guns. Is it a Brownie? — A. I can't tell you. If I 
tell you it's a Brownie, this I don't know. 

Q. How many pistols have you got? — A. Two pistols, one .45, one .32. 

Q. Registered? — A. Certainly. 

Q. Have you got a permit to carry a gun? — A. No ; I got no permit. I used ta 
have. 

Q. How many years did you have a permit? — A. Oh. I guess around 1932 to 
1934 or '35, something like that. 

Q. What did you have a permit to carry a gun for? — A. What? 

Q. What did you have a permit to carry a gun for? — A. Well, a lot of people 
used to have, and I asked him — I All out the papers and a friend of mine sign up, 
a drug store man on McDougall, and another one was a barber, run a barbershop, 
and I fill in the application and got it. 

Q. Is that the time John Fry was police commissioner? — A. No. 

Q. Who was police commissioner? — A. I don't know. 

Q. Who got it for you? — A. I got it myself — fill out the application and I 
got it. 

Q. How long have you known Thompson? — A. I never see. I never see. 

Q. How long have you known Mrs. Thompson? — A. I never see. 

Q. Where is your gas station? — A. On Jefferson Avenue. 

Q. What corner? — A. Canton and Jefferson. 

Q. Who do you know out at Orchard Lake? — A. I don't know nobody. 

Q. Do you know Gerald E. O'Brien? — A. No. 

Q. Did you ever call him from your gas station? — A. I never called him. 

Q. Who called him? — A. I don't know. 

Q. Have you got a private line? — A. I don't know if it is a private line. 

Q. Have you got two telephones? — A. One pay station, and then got a desk and 
got a 'phone. 

The Court. That's your private 'phone? 

The Witness. That's right. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 291 

By Mr. Garber : 
Q. Who did you call out at Keego Harb'^r? — A. I never call anybody. 
Q. What's your telephone number? — A. Fitzroy 8524. 
The Court. That's your private one? ' 
The Witness. That's right. 
The Court. What's your public one? 
The Witness. I don't know. I never call. 

The Court. Any time you call, you call on your own private 'phone. 
The Witness. My own private 'phone. 

By Mr. Gabrer : 

Q. When did you meet Mrs. Thompson? — A. I never met her. I never know 
about her. 

Q. You never met her? — A. I never met her. 

Q. How did she get your name? — A. Well, I don't know. 

Q. Who was running your gas station in 1945? — A. I don't think — I think my 
son-in-law. 

Q. Your son-in-law? — A. I think my son-in-law was. 

Q. Which one? — A. Carl, I think, was running it. 

Q. Carl was running your gas station in 1945? — A. I don't know if it was 
Carl — some of the boys. I had before all boys all the time. 

Q. As far as you know, Carl was running it? — A. I don't mean — Carl was 
running it after work, wiien I got the station, and then I have so many boys. 

Q. Do you keep books? — A. Yes, I keep books. 

Q. Have you, got their social-security numbers? — ^A. Sure. 

Q. Well, who was working there? — -A. When, right now? 

Q. No. Who was working there in 1945? — A. I don't remember, see. 

The Court. The books will show? 

The Witness. The books will show, if I looked in the books, I could tell 
you. I don't know the name. American boys, you know. 

The Court. Can we have those books, Sam? 

The Witness. Sure. 

The Court. To look at them? 

The Witness. Sure, I will bring them any time you want to see them. 

By Mr. Gakber: 

Q. When did you first find out about this note that was written by Mrs. 
Thompson? — A. The police told me they have the note. 

Q. What police told you?- — A. In Pontiac ; you know. 

Q. Did they call you out to Pontiac? — A. They don't call me up. They come 
over, pick me up at the gas station. 

Q. Did they take you out? — A. Take mt out. Ask me if I know the lady, if 
I know Mr.Tliompson . I tell them I never see the man. They ask me if I buy 
a Buick. I never have a Buick in my life. 

Q. What kind of a car did you have? — A. Ford, Packard, Mercury. 

Q. What kind of a Packard did you have?— A. 1941 Packard. 
. Q. Did you have that in August and September 1945?— A. No ; I don't remember 
when I sold. 

Q. What year did you have a Packard? — A. I know 1941, I had it, see. 

Q. When did you sell it? — A I don't remember really when I sell it — about 
two years ago, something like that. 

Q. You sold it when? 1945?— A. Yes. 

Q. AVhen in 1945? — A. I don't remember the day. 

■Q. What color was it? — A. Black color, 4-door sedan. 

Q. How many cylinders? — A. 6 cylinders. 

Q. 6 cylinders, 4-door sedan Packard? — A. Yes. 

Q. And you sold it when? — A. I don't remember if I sold it a year and a half 
or a .year ago ; something like that. 

Q. What did you do? Trade it? — A. No ; I sold it to a guy, you see. 

Q. Who? — A. A fellow by the name of Vivona. He went to the old country. 
He's in the old country now. 

The Court. Did he take the car with him? 

The Witness. No ; he don't take the car with him. He sold the car, see. 

The Court. Do you remember the license number in 1945? 

The Witness. No ; I don't remember. 

The Court. Do you remember what time of the year you sold it? 

The Witness. I don't remember the year. 



292 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Court. Did you sell it in October? 

The Witness. I could check up and find out. 

The Court. What kind of ear have you got now? 

The Witness. I've got a Mercury and I got a Pontiac. My wife has a Pontiac 
and I got a Mercury. 

The Court. When did you buy those? 

The Witness. I bought this year — I mean 1946 car. 

The Court. Is that when you sold the Packard, you bought the Mercury? 

The Witness. No ; I had a Ford before, and I had it smashed up, and got rid 
of it and got the Mercury. 

The Court. AVhen did you sell the Packard? 

The Witness. The Packard, I tell you ; I don't remember. I know it's better 
than a year ; a year and a half. 

The Court. About a year and a half? 

The Witness. I don't remember the right day. 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. What cars did you have when you had the Packard? — A. That's all I had; 
the Packard. 

Q. Just the Packard? — A. The Packard — wait a minute. I had the Packard 
and I had a Ford. 

Q. What year Ford?— A. 1946 Ford. 

Q. 1946 Ford, and you had the Packard when you had the 1946 Ford?— A. Yes. 

Q. After you were taken out to the police in Pontiac, how many times did you 
go to see Gentiles? — A. The police and Mr. Glover, they send me to see Mr. Gentile, 
find out from Mr. Gentile if this woman ever go out with anybody ; see if this 
woman ever go out with anybody. I went to my uncle, with his permission. 

Q. Who went with you that time? — A. Myself. 

Q. You went alone? — A. I went alone. 

Q. All right. — A. And I ask him if he know anybody used to go out with this 
woman — what they told me to find out — and he said he never see her go out with 
nobody. She only was here at my house with my sister, the other sister-in-law, 
one day the.v come, fifteen years ago. they told me. 

Q. They never saw anybody go out with Mrs. Thompson? — A. Never see any- 
body go out with Mrs. Thompson. 

Q. When did you come again? — A. I never went back again. 

Q. You only went there once? — A. Once; yes. 

Q. Did you ever go with your car and take them any place? — A. Who? 

Q. The Gentiles?— A. No. 

Q. You never took them any place?- — A. Never took them no place. 

Q. You say Art Glover — • — A. Wait a minute. I take them once, too. They 
send me once, call me, state trooper, to take them to 7-Mile Road. I go over, 
pick up with my wife, take them to 7-Mile Road. They ask questions to her, to me, 
to my uncle, all of us. 

Q. You were all taken out to 7-Mile Road? — A. Yes. 

Q. When was that? — A. .Tust a month later — two or three weeks later. 

Q. When was the time you went there alone, Sam? — A. Just when this thing 
happened. They come over and picked me up at the gas station. 

Q. Who went with you that night you were there? — A. Where? 

Q. The first time you went out there. — A. I went alone. 

Q. Wlio was the other Italian fellow with you? — A. I had nobody with me.. 

Q. If Gentiles say you did, are they wrong? — A. What? 

Q. If the Gentiles say you came out with another young Italian — an Italian, 

not young, an Italian they never saw before or since A. I don't know. I 

don't remember, see. 

Q. Is that the guy that is in P]urope now? — A. No. I don't remember who I 
went with, if I had my wife or what. 

The Court. Y'ou went alone the first time, you said. Who was with you? 

The Witness. Nobody with me. 

The Court. You went out once with your wife, and Gentile and bis wife got 
into your car and drove over to the State Trooper Headquarters on 7-Mile 
Road, didn't you? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. And the officers over there talked to the whole four of you. But 
before that time you went to Gentiles with another Italian? 

The Witness. I don't remember, you know. 

The Court. You remember going out yourself? 

The Witness. I remember I went down there. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 293 

The Court. Yon did ^o over there? 

The Witness. I did go over there. I don't remember who was with me. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. You were mad, shaking your fists in Gentile's face, and asked, "How did 
that woman get my name?" — A. I told Gentiles, "Why did you give the name?" 
Glover and the Chief told me, "Find out how she got your name." The old man 
say, "Your name over here in my telephone hook. Rhe come over here. When 
she see the picture in the paper about the gun she take the picture in the paper. 
She know your name. I don't know what's going to happen to you." Because 
I bawl him out. I want to find out if he ever give my name to these people. 

Q. What were you mad about? — A. If anybody accuse you, piece put in the 
paper like that, wouldn't that get you mad? I never see these people. I don't 
know the wife. I don't know the husband. I don't know anybody. I never go 
to the west side. 

Q. Why did you go over three or four times to Gentile's house after it was in 
the paper? — A. I never go down no three or four times to Gentile's house. 

Q. How many times did you go? — A. I don't rememb?r if I went once or two 
times. The police send me down there. 

Q. Why didn't you talk to Gentile at the plant about it? — A. I never talk to 
Gentile at the plant. 

Q. Why?— A. What do I want to talk to him for? 

Q. W'hat did you go away out there to talk to him for? — A. They send me to go. 

Q. Who? — A. The police say, "You got to help us." I don't go down there. 
If the police don't send me, I wouldn't go down there. I never go to those people. 
It's relation to my wife. I never go to my wife's people. 

Q. But you went down with this other Italian fellow? — A. I don't go with 
no Italian fellow. I think my wife go alone. 

Q. Did you go with Glover? — A. I don't remember if Glover went. 

Q. Anotlier time did you go with Glover? — A. I never go with Glover. 

Q. You had better start telling the truth, or we will issue a warrant for 
bribing an oflScer? — A. I tell you the truth. 

Q. It's a 14-year penalty. You'd better tell the truth. — A. I tell you the 
truth. I don't know these people. I never went over there. 

INIr. Garber. You had better stai't thinking. 

The Court. I have to go to see a party, so you can sit around there with the 
officers, and after awhile they will take you to dinner, you know, and anywhere 
you want to go to. 

The Witness. I got to go home with the stuff I could eat. I come back. I got 
nothing to do. I will be right back. 

The Court. You can go with them. 

(Witness excused.) 

Santo Perrone, having been by the Court previously duly sworn, was examined 
and testified further as follows : 

Examination by Mr. Garber: 

Q.. When did you engage Louis Colombo to come over here and represent you? — 
A. The day I got the subpoena, the next morning, I went to Louis Colombo, and 
1 went to tell him I figured Monday you people going to put in the paper. I 
tell Mr. Colombo I never know these people, never know nobody, why should 
I be in the paper there? Sunday I happened to be on his floor, and when he sees 
me he knows me. He sajs, "You in the paper now." Why I should be disgraced — 
why I went to Colombo, I don't want to be disgraced. I have a gas station. I 
see thousands of people in a week, come over for gas, in the shop, or walk 
in the office or be at the front gate with my men. I don't want to be in the 
paper. I went to Colombo for that reason. Then I was in the paper. 

Q. How did you keep your name out of the paper when that note was dis- 
covered? — A. Well. I don't know anything aliout a note. 

The Court. But they found a note with your name on it? 

The Witness. They put it in the paper. 

The Court. They didn't put your name in the paper? 

The Witness. There was my name in the paper, your Llonor. Somebody read 
was a little piece in the paper. 

The Court. Did you read it in the paper? 

The Witness. I don't know. I can't read in the paper. I can read maybe a 
few words. 



294 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

By Mr. Garbeb : 

Q. But it wasn't in for a long, long time. — A. Well, I never see her, you know. 

Q. Did you ever know it was in the paper? — A. Well, I know at the time when 
they put them in the paper. 

Q. Did you talk to Mr. Thomas, the sheriff, about not putting it in the pai)er? — 
A. No. I don't know — they put them in the paper. I don't know why they 
don't put them in no more. 

Q. You talked to Mr. Thomas, the sheriff, and he promised not to put your 
name in the paper. — A. No. Just tell me the night they come over, pick me up 
in the station — a.sked me if I ever buy a Buick. I told them I never have a Buick 
in my life. The only car I had was a Ford and one Packard. My wife likes the 
Packard. I got a Packard. 

The CotTET. You drive a Ford? 

The Witness. I drive a Ford. I had a Mercury that time. 

The Court. By the way, Sam, you were living on Yorkshire that time? 

The Witness. No, I think I was living on Beaconsfield. 

The Court. Were you? 

The Witness. Yes ; Beaconsfield. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Do you remember the time Mrs. Coco, Mrs. Gentile, and Mrs. Latona 
brought Mrs. Thompson over to your house to show her your house? — A. They 
never bring her to my house. 

Q. They say they did. — A. They never bring her to my house. 

Q. They never brought her to your house? — A. I ask my sister-in-law and they 
claim they brought two my sister-in-laws when my brother bought the house, the 
new house next door. I never see. 

Q. They were over to Gasper's ? — A. I never see. 

Q. They were over to Gasper, not your house. — A. Gasper's house once, what 
my aunt say. 

The Court. Who? 

The Witness. My aunt, Mrs. Gentile. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. When is the last time you were over to the Gentiles before this happened? — • 
A. Well, I never was over to Gentiles a long time. 

Q. How long? — A. Well, I never was over to Gentiles a long time. 

Q. How long? — A. I don't know if it was a year, 2 years. 

Q. Did you ever meet Mrs. Thompson over there? — A. I never met her. 

Q. Did you ever hear them talk about her? — A. I never hear them talk about 
her. 

Q. You don't know Mr. Thompson? — A. I never see. 

Q. Are you sure you didn't give Thomas some money out there to keep it out 
of the paper? — A. I never give nobody no money. Nobody ask me for no money. 

Q. I never said they asked you for any money. Did you offer them any? — ^A. 
I never offer a penny to nobody. 

Q. Why did you offer these fellows where you were out hunting this $500? — 
A. I don't know these fellows for nothing. He tell me, "We give you 6 months 
in jail." 

Q. Did they find a loaded gun? — A. Not a loaded gun, a .iammed gun. 

Q. Anyway, you did pay $50 fine? — A. I say, "Why I want to plead guilty? 
I am not guilty." I don't bring the gun to the Judge. If I bring the gun to 
the Judge, he don't fine anything. They take me over, bring me back. 

Q. When did you try to get the gun back? — A. The other day, I called the game 
warden, told him I wanted to get my gun back. 

Q. After you got served with a subpoena or before? — A. The same time. He 
was call up my son-in-law, left a note, the game warden give a note. I want to 
go get it at Lansing. The game warden said to me on the telephone they got 
them in Jackson. I call up down there — made my son-in-law call up. 

Q. All right. After this broke in the paper, this Thompson murder, and you 
found out your name was in a piece in the paper, when was the first time you went 
over to the Gentiles? — A. This was before I heard in the paper, when the police 
took me over there. 

Q. Who told you about it? — A. Glover and Sheehy says, "You go down and 
find out." I don't remember if I have one of them or brought one of them with 
me, and I went up this day and ask my uncle. "Did you ever give my name to 
this lady?" And Gentile, my uncle, said, "Here's your name right here." He had 
on his desk. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 295 

The Court. A phone book? 

The Witness. No ; not a phone book — all his friends' telephone numbers, Sam 
Perrone's number. 

The Court. A little book? 

The Witness. A little book ; and he said, "She always used to sit over here, 
could take your number and name." 

The Court. What would she be taking your name for? 

The Witness. Well, I don't know. "Probably she take out of there your name," 
because I ask him how this woman know my name. 

The Court. Why would she want to take your name? Why would she not take 
some other name? 

The Witness. He don't say she take my name — "Maybe she take your name out 
of there." I say, "Did you ever give my name to anybody?" 

By Mr. Garbee : 

Q. Let's go a little slower. When is the first time you went up there to see 
Gentile after you found your name was on this piece of paper? — A. No; I went 
down there when the police arrest — after they leave me they told me to go down 
there. 

The Court. When were you arrested ? 

The Witness. Not arrested — just picked up, take me over there. 

The Court. When? 

The Witness. I don't remember, your Honor. 

The Court. A couple of days after they discovered the body? 

The Witness. W^ell, I don't know when they discovered the body. They come 
over to the station, said, "We want to talk to you." 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Who came over? — A. Pontiac police and some Detroit police — put me to 
McClellan Station, ask me if I know this woman. I told tliem I never knew 
about them. They ask if I know the husband. They ask if I ever buy a Buick 
car. I never buy a Buick car. I don't know the man. They asked me what 
happened, somebody steal the car. They said, did I know this woman got killed — 
told me the whole liusiness. They keep me in the cell ten or fifteen minutes, 
take my money, everytliing I had. and tlien took me to Pontiac. 

The Court. At McClellan Station? 

The Witness. First take me to McClellan Station, take me to Pontiac after. 

The Court. When did they take your money from you? 

The Witness. Take from me my belt. 

The Court. Where did they take your money, at McClellan Station? 

The Witness. At McClellan Station. 

Tlie Court. How much money did you have on you there? 

Tlie Witness. I don't know if I had two or three hundred. 

The Court. They gave it back to you? 

The Witness. Yes. They took my belt. 

By Mr. Garber : 
Q. You went to McClellan Station, then you were taken to Pontiac? — A. Pon- 
tiac, got there about eleven o'clock, ten or eleven o'clock. 
The Court. You don't remember the night, the date? 
The Witness. I don't remember. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. How long did they keep you at Pontiac? — A. Keep me till about twelve 
o'clock. 

Q. Night or morning? — A. Night, sir. 

Q. What time did you get picked up? — A. About five o'clock. 

Q. They took you over to McClellan Station? — ^A. Yes. 

Q. And took you out to Pontiac? — A. Yes. 

Q. What time did you get out to Pontiac? — A. I don't know — after ten-thirty, 
eleven o'clock. I know it was late, you see. 

Q. They let you go at twelve? — A. Yes. 

Q. Where did you go after you left Pontiac? — A. Right home. 

Q. Didn't you get out to Gentiles about one o'clock in the morning? — A. No, sir. 

Q. Didn't you go straight to Gentiles? — A. No, I don't go to Gentiles. I went 
right home. 

Q. When did you go to Gentiles? 

The Court. Did you go to Gentiles the next day? 



296 ORGANIZED CRIME IN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. I don't remember. When the police come to me, I went to 
Gentiles over there. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Let's set this straiglit. You were picked up and taken out to Pontiac and 
released about twelve o'clock?— A. Yes. 

Q. Now, when did you next go to Gentiles?— A. Well, after a few days they 
called me again. 

Q. Who called you?— A. The police. 

Q. Who? — A. The Pontiac people. They say, "Come to Pontiac with your 
sister-in-law." I went down there with my sister-in-law. 

Q. You had been over to see your uncle and your aunt alone?— A. I never went 
alone. 

Q. Who did you go with? — A. It must be — I remember the police was with me, 
see. 

Q. All right. Who was the policeman? — A. Why, Glover and Sheehy was the 
I)olicemen. 

Q. You went over once with Glover and Sheehy. When is the next time you 
went? — A. I never went back any more. 

Q. You went back with your wife? — A. I went back with my wife later, when 
they call me on 7-Mile Road. 

Q. You iiicked them up and took them to 7-Mile Road? — A. That's right. 

Q. When did you go there with this Italian fellow?— I never went with an 
Italian fellow. 

Q. That stranger? — A. I never went with nobody. It must be the police. 

Q. No? — A. I never took no Italians with me. 

Q. You took an Italian fellow over to see the Gentiles and they never saw him 
before or since? — A. I didn't. I never took nobody. 

Q. Was he tbe guy that killed Mrs. Thompson? — A. He never killed Mr. 
Thompson. 

Q. Mrs. Thompson? — A. I don't know how you spell the name. 

Q. Who was the man that went over there with you? — A. I don't know. 

Q. Where were you that Thursday night, October the 11th? — A. I don't remem- 
ber ; at home. 

Q. At home? — A. Well, I am home all the time. Every night I go home. 

Q. Where were you on the 12th ? — A. Well, home. 

Q. Who was at your house? — A. Nobody. I never associated with nobody. 

Q. There was nobody there at all? — A. No. 

Q. Well, did you remember when they took you out to Pontiac, where you 
were?— A. What? 

Q. Did you remember where you were when you went to Pontiac? — A. Why, I 
was home. They called me up. I went over there. 

Q. They asked you where you were Thursday? — A. They ask me, I told them 
I was home. 

Q. Did you ever go to this honse of Gentiles out in the country, the farm? — 
A. I don't even know what farm he's got. 

Q. What street do you think it's on? — A. I don't know. 

Q. You know tliey had a farm? — A. I don't know they even got a farm. 

Q. Did they have a farm in 1045? — A. I never heard of it. 

Q. Have you ever been to the farm? — A. I got father-in-law, got a little farm 
in Mount Clemens. 

Q. Where? — A. Not farm — got a couple of acres of land, got trees, grape trees, 
apple trees, all kind of trees. 

Q. Where is that? — A. Harnecker Road. 

Q. Harnecker Road. What's his name? — A. Domanico Calcogna. 

Q. How old is he? — A. He's about around — a little better than 75. I guess. 

Q. Who else lives there?- — A. Just mother-in-law and the old man. Nobody 
else. 

The Court. Have they got a barn out there? 

The Witness. Yes ; little chicken barn, just like that. 

The Court. Do they keep a cow? 

The Witness. No, no cow — got a couple of goats. 

The Court. No horse? 

The Witness. No horse. 

The Court. No cow? 

The Witness. No cow. They used to have one cow. 

The Court. There's just the old man and the old lady? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 297 

The Witness. The old man and the old lady. 

The Court. Thev live there together? 

The Witness. They live there together. They been living there for about 25 
years. 

The Court. How far away from the street is the house? 

The Witjvess. It's about 100 feet, you know, right on the road, close to the 
road, a brick house. 

The Court. What is the nearest house to them? 

The Witness. Well, the nearest house is short — half a block. 

The Court. Half a block on one side. What's on the other side? 

The Witness. They got houses all around. One is on this side, one is on this 
side, and one built up this side. Nobody live there. 

The Court. Across the street, nobody lives there? 

The Witness. Across the street, that's right. 

The Court. Did you ever go out to Gentiles' cottage? 

The Witness. I don't even know where it is. I never been there. I don't 
even know if he's got a cottage. 

The Court. Well, he hasn't got it now. He sold it. 

The Witness. I never been. They never even told me because I dont talk to 
him much. I see him in the plant, "Hello, how are you." And I am gone, you 
see. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. How often do you go to the Cocos? — A. I never went to Cocos. I don't 
even know where he lives. 

Q. Did you ever see him over to Gentiles?— A. I never see him. 

Q. Did you ever see him over at Gentiles? — A. I never go to Gentiles. How 
can I see? 

Q. When you were over to Gentiles did you see him? — A. I don't see. Nobody 
was there. 

Q. Do you know the T.atonas? — A. Sure. He works for the stove company. 

Q. Latona works for the stove company? — A. He had his hands cut otf. That's 
the one you mean? 

Q. Tom? — A. Yes. He got his hand cut off, caught in a machine in the stove 
company. 

Q. How long did he work for the stove company? — A. I guess better than ten 
years." 

Q. Did you get him his job? — -A. No ; he got the job. 

Q. Did you ever introduce him to anybody over there? — A. Never introduce 
him to nobody. I look in the piece room, see how much scrap I got. He worked 
over there. If I see him, "Hello," I go about my business. 

The Court. You are a pretty big shot over there in the stove business? 

The Witness. No ; I work hard for the company. I shovel coal. I shovel 
dirt? 

The Court. Now, even now? 

The Witness. Now, tomorrow, a man don't come, I shovel coal ; truck driver 
don't come in, I drive the truck. I am not ashamed of work. 

Tlie Court. You are a hard worker? 

The Witness. A hard worker, all three brothers. Ask anybody in Detroit. 

The Court. You don't drink? 

The Witness. I don't drink. 

The Court. No whisky. 

The Witness. Wine — I never drink — my girl get married. I use for the 
wedding. Every four oi- five years I make a barrel of wine. I can't drink. I got 
diabetes. If I drink I be a dead man. 

The Court. You're on a diet? 

The Witness. Yes. I got diabetes. When I was in trouble with the whisky, 
I went to Leavenworth Penitentiary. They tested my blood and found I had. 
susar. I don't know, they give me three tests. 

The Court. How long were you there? 

The Witness. 29 months. 

The Court. Two and a half years. 

The W^iTNESS. They give me parole. I come home, start to work. 

The Court. Had you ever been in prison before? 

The Witness. Never. 

The Court. Since? 

The Witness. Never since. I told my parole board, if I got to sleep where* 
the dogs sleep, I never go wrong if they give me a parole. 



298 ORGANIZED CRIME IN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. What trouble did you get in in 1942?— A. I had young brother, the one 
died, had bought a house in Outer Drive. While I was in jail, he had three 
little pistols. Somebody sold him one — live downstairs in the neighborhood — 
but when he moved in the new house, he had no permission paper, and he 
took those guns in the plant, made a little compartment — he was carpenter 
by trade — and he put in there. Me and my brother Gasper know nothing about 
it. If I known, I throw them in the river. I am on the parole and happen a 
little fire — I must have leave cigarette myself or soiiieone must have done. 
They discover those guns. I am ready to go out hunting. Five or six police 
come over to my house. I am cleaning my rifle to go hunting. "You must 
come to the station. We want to see you." They ask me where are Gasper 
and Matthew. Matthew worked at Stove Company and worked at night at 
Bohn Aluminum — two jobs. He want to pay his house. They went out, got 
my brothers, got me, and then my brother say he find one. They show me. 
I never see those things in my life. I told them I got pistol home, registered. 
I got rifle, a lot of shells. Whatever shells I find, I buy. You know, I go 
hunting. If I can buy a box of shells, I be glad to get them. 

The Court. This fellow here goes hunting? 

The Witness. Yes ; I heard he go hunting. 

The Court. This fellow right here is a dead shot. 

The Witness. I don't know. And I had a lot of shells. I told them I got 
a lot of shells, I got two pistols registered, and I got shotgun, and my brother 
told the truth. We don't even go in the court. Went out $10,000 bond. It 
costs $1,000 each, me and my brother Gasper. 

The Court. What lawyer did you have? 

The Witness. Lawyer Bellanca, and it cost me a lot of money for the law- 
yer, and I didn't even went to the court. My brother told the truth, and who 
give him those guns. I never have no trouble. I went back to the FBI, they 
give me all my guns back, my shells back, and my pistols back, and was 
disgrace, like you people disgrace me today. 

By Mr. Garbeb : 

Q. What about the dynamite caps? — A. My brother Ga.sper drill a well. 
While we were away, he went down, take a piece of rope — crazy young guy, 
he have the rope — when he took the gun he took this little piece of rope. 

Q. A fuse? — A. He takes them out of his house. He's afraid to have them 
in his house. 

Q. Why were they in your locker? — A. Not in my locker, your Honor. They 
was in his own locker. There was three lockers. I was on the corner, he was 
in the center, and Gasper in the other corner. 

Q. Do you know Mr. Valenti? — A. Who? 

Q. Valenti?— A. No. 

Q. He was an assistant prosecutor? — ^A. I don't know. 

Q. You were in front of him? — A. That's right. Now, I know. I know the 
name Valenti, was prosecutor, Valenti. 

Q. What were you doing in front of him when you were waving the gun out 
here in front of the Detroit Stove Works? — A. That time I went to Mr. Valenti, 
this man right there, he come to the factory, he want to see me. There was a 
fellow by the name of Mazzola was talking to a friend he know from the old 
country. He worked in the plant there 35 years, with me. I was talking to him, 
and this guy told me, "Don't talk to this guy." I said, "Who are you? Are you 
Hitler? Why should I not talk to this man?" 

The Court. Who told you not to talk? 

The Witness. A guy in the plant, Mazzola, I know. This gentleman knows 
about it. He says to me, "I don't want you to talk to him." I don't want to fight 
in the shop — get little fight, get tough, scratch. He said, "I want to see you 
outside." 

The Court. This Mazzola? 

The Witness. He went outside and he went away with his car, with the police, 
and I went away about my business, and he come over there, want me over there 
to see Mr. Fry, and I took this man in front of him 

The Court. What man? 

The Witness. This man right there. 

The Court. Detective DeLammielleure? 

The Witness. And the prosecutor and Valenti, and this man was talking. 

The OouKT. About what? 



ORGANIZED CRIME, IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 299 

The Witness. About union stuff, like that. I said I was not talking about 
union. They let me go. We shook hands — you mind your business, I mind my 
business. lie went home. I been friendly witli him. Say "Hello" to him. We 
mind our business. We shook hands in front of the office, and we never had no 
trouble. 

By Mr. Garrer : 

Q. Did Mrs. Thompson ever hire you or ask you to get her somebody to do a 
job on Helen Budnik? — A. I never meet her. I don't know anybody. 

Q. Did Mr. Gentile ever ask you? — A. Nobody ever ask me — never talked 
about it. 

Q. Mr. Coco? — A. Never ask me for nothing, Mr. Coco. 

Q. I know, but did they ever ask you to get somebody to do a job on Helen 
Budnik? — A. I never talk to Mr. Coco, maybe ten years I don't talk to him. 
Maybe I wouldn't know to see him. 

Q. Who did you hire to kill Mrs. Thompson? — A. I never hire. What do I 
want to kill for? 

Q. For money? — A. I don't need the money. 

Q. Well, who did you hire to beat these guys up at the Briggs? — A. I never 
hire nobody. 

Q. Who did it?— A. How do I know? 

Q. Did you do it? — A. I never touch nobody. I never had no fight with nobody. 

Q. I didn't say "fight."^Hit on the head with a lead pipe? — A. I can't even 
hit a fly. 

Q. You cracked a lot of heads in 1934? — A. I never did. 

Q. You and your brother went to Grand Rapids? — A. I never been to Grand 
Rapids. 

Q. Did you ever go to Battle Creek? — A. I go to Battle Creek in the Stove 
Company. I want to buy some big dies, scrap. 

Q. What year was that? — A. Since they bought the plant, Mr. Fry. 

Q. You were up there in 1935 and 1936 to settle a strike, you and Gasper? — A. 
I never been there. 

Q. Do you know Mr. Smith, the president of the stove company? — A. I met 
Mr. Smith. He come to the stove works, every week. 

Q. Didn't you break a strike — weren't you hired to break that strike? — A. 
Never hired by nobody. 

Q. When did you break that strike? — A. I never break no strike. 

Q. Mr. Smith paid you for coming up to break the strike? — ^A. He never did. 

Q. Who did he pay? — -A. I don't know who. 

Q. Did he pay Gasper? — A. My brother never get paid. 

Q. You never went up to break a strike? — A. Never did. 

Q. You've never been in Battle Creek? — A. Been thei'e once. 

Q. What did you go for?— A. I want to buy some scrap. They don't even 
sell to me. 

The Court. Where is that stove works up there — is it Battle Creek or Muske- 
gon? 

The Witness. It's in Battle Creek. 

By Mr. Garber : 
Q. Who was president of it? — A. I know Mr. Fry is president. 
Q. Who was the president? — A. Mr. Smith. 

Q. How did you meet Mr. Smith? — A. I met him in the stove conspany. 
Q. What stove company ?^ — A. At the office. 
The Court. Michigan Stove? 
The Witness. Michigan Stove. 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. Who introduced you to him? — A. Mr. Fry. 

Q. How long ago? — A. A long time ago. 

Q. Before you went up to break that strike? — A. No; I never went to break 
no strike, your Honor. 

Q. Did you go up there and stay a few days? — A I never stay a few days. I 
went with the car and turn right back. 

Q. Did Gasper stay? — A. Gasper never been there, I think. 

Q. You don't know anything about that? If Mr. Smith says you and Gasper 
were brought up there to break the strike, he is not telling the truth? — A. He's 
a liar, if he said that. 



300 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Q. If he said Mr. Fry sent you up there? — A. No ; never sent me no place, Mr. 
Fry. 

Q. Who got you out of .iail after 20 months? — A. Nobody sot me out. 

Q. How did you get out? — A. I pay my revenue tax, and the parole m<an gave 
me parole. 

Q. What was your sentence? — A. AVhat? 

Q. How long were you sent there for? — A. Six years. 

Q. And you got out after two and a half years? — A. 20 months. 

Q. Did you plead guilty or were you tried? — A. Sure, I plead guilty. 

Q. Who was your lawyer? — A. IMcDonald. You know, he used to be 
prosecutor. 

Q. McDonald, a redhead? — A. Not redhead — a big, slim fellow, you know, used 
to be prosecuting attorney in the Federal T'ourt, McDonald. 

Q. When did you first hire Colombo at any time? When did you ever use him 
before? — A. Colombo? 

Q. Yes. — A. Well, I know Colombo for years. I know Colombo for 35 years. 

The CoiTRT. I know, but when was he first acting as your lawyer? You had 
McDonald. 

Mr. Garbkr. Eellanca. 

The Witness. Bellanca, he come over himself. I don't hire him at all. I 
want to get Colombo, see. 

By Mr. Garrer: 

Q. When did you first hire Colombo? — A. I was arrested — a little fight I had in 
a dance hall, you know, 1020, or 'IS, see, in there, and he got me out of the jail. 
Since that time I know him, see. 

The CoTurr. Did you ever have him since that time? 

The WiTNi;ss. Sure. 

The Court. When? 

The Witness. I don't remember, your Honor. 

By Mr. Garrer : 

Q. What did you hii-e him for?— A. AVhat? 

Q. What did you hire him for afterwards? — A. I was arrested for suspicion, 
.something like that. 

Q. Suspicion of what? — A. The jiolice pick me up on the street, be two or three 
young guys in a car, and take us in. 

Q. How many times did that hai)pen? — A. That happen a few times. I don't 
really remember how many times, two or three times. 

The Court. So many times you can't reme^nber? 

The Witness. Well, it's a long time, I never been in trouble, never been 
picked up. 

The Court. You made a lot of money the last few years. You didn't have to 
be in the police station. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. You were in here three years ago? — A. I always been making money. I 
been working at the Stove Company all the time, $00', $100 a week. 

Q. You were picked up a little while ago, and you were down at the police 
station when you saw Mr. DeLamielleure. You were picked up in 1042, when 
they found guns and dynamite in your car? — A. In my car? 

Q. Well, your locker. — A. They didn't belong to me, your Honor. 

Q. AA'hen else were you picked up? — A. Picked up? You see, I don't remember, 
you see. 

Q. What were you picked up for? — A. Just for .suspicion. 

Q. Of what? — A. The police see two or three guys in a car, call us in. 

Q. AVho got you out of Leavenworth? — A. Out of Leavenworth? 

Q. Yes. — A. Nobody got me out. They give me parole, get me out. 

Q. Did Air. Fry try to get you out?— A. No. 

Q. He didn't do a thing? — ^A. Maybe sent a letter of recommendation, all I 
know. A lot of people sent me a letter of recommendation. Even Mr. Martel 
sent me a letter of recommendation. 

Q. AVhat Martel? — A. Frank Martel, A. F. of L. I am union, you know, and 
I am still in the union. 

Q. Did you ever see the recommendation Mr. Fry sent for you? — A. No: they 
don't show it to me. They told me they had recommendation from Mr. Fry. I 
was in jail. A lot of people — my family went after everybody and they sent 
letters. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 301 

The Court. Did Gasper go to jail too? 
Tlie Witness. Botli tlie same time, two brothers. 
The Court. Did he get out the same time? 

The Witness. He got out two weeks before me. His wife had operation. They 
made parole and he go right away. 
The CoLTRT. Matthew too? 

The Witness. No. He took care of our business. 
The Court. He didn't go to .lail? 
The Witness. No ; he didn't have to. 

By Mr. Gaeber : 

Q. Where did you have your still? — A. I don't have a still. 

Q. Who had the still?— A. Somebody else. I don't want to do this moonsliine 
business. I had a little money I put in. I was working. They beg me, "You 
put the money, we do the work," and I was making a little profit out of it, and 
my brother Gasper, he don't have nothing to do with it. Still they give six 
years. I was the one doing the monkey business with the guy. 

Q. He plead guilty too? — A. The lawyer tell him, "Plead guilty, they give you 
probation." We both done what the lawyer tell us to do. 

Q. What judge? — A. Judge Lederle. Judge Lederle sent letter of recommenda- 
tion to us, too. If it be good behavior, give him parole. 

Q. Was he a judge in 1935? — A. No. I got convicted in 1937— late '36 and '37. 

The Court. Late in 1937? 

The Witness. Yes. 

By Mr. Gaeber : 

Q. Well, Gasper got convicted in 1935, too. didn't he? — A. No. 

Q. Well, the only time you were ever convicted was for that liquor charge? — 
A. That's all. 

Q. Who were you working with in those days? Who was running the still? — 
A. Some w^irkingmen, you see. 

Q. From the Michigan Stove. Works? — A. No. 

Q. Is he still in town?— A. Who? 

Q. The man you were connected with? — A. No. The man was in jail. He 
went to St. Louis, I don't know where he is. 

Q. Did he go to jail, too? — A. He had trouble with his wife ; he go to St. Louis. 
I don't even know where he is. 

Q. He's in St. Louis?— A. Yes. 

Q. He didn't get convicted of having liquor? — A. Yes. He skip bond, run away. 

Q. He jumped his bond?- — A. He jumped his bond. 

Q. The last you knew of him he was in St. Louis? — A. Yes; he went to St. 
Louis, and they got him in St. Louis. 

Q. You have got quite a gang, haven't you? — A. I ain't got no gang, nobody. 
I got my family gang. 

Q. You got your family gang? — A. Yes; three daughters, wife, and little 
grandson. 

Q. Do you use your son-in-law on any of these jobs? — A. My son-in-law never 
do no job to nobody. 

Q. Well, you are known as the king of the Italians? — A. Who? 

Q. You. — A. Me? I am king of my own family, Italians. 

Q. You are also king of a lot of families, aren't you? — A. No, I don't know 
nobody, no family. 

Q. They are all afraid of you? — A. I never scare nobody. 

Q. Why are they afraid of you? — A. Nobody ever said to me they are afraid 
of me. 

Q. They didn't say it to you. They have said it to a lot of other people.— 
A. I don't know what the other people say. 

Q. What are the Gentiles afraid of you for? — A. I never talk to him. I 
don't see why he should be afraid. He never tell me he's afraid. It's my 
uncle. 

Q. Why is he afraid of you? — A. I don't know he's afraid. 

Q. Was Dean Robinson ever up to your hunting camp? — A. I don't know who 
he is. 

Q. Wait a minute. Was Dean Robinson ever up to your hunting camp? — 
A. I don't know nobody by the name. 

Q. You never heard of it? — A. What is it? Police officer, or what? 

68058—51 — pt. 9 20 



302 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Q. A man out at Briggs. 

The Court. The top man at Briggs. 

The Witness. I don't know. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Was he ever up there when you were tliere? — A. I never see the man. 

Q. You don't know the man. Well, was he ever up to your camp? — A. I never 
see. I don't know who he is. 

Q. Did your son-in-law ever have him up there? — A. Aly son-in-law never 
goes up there alone. He goes with me. 

Q. Why did you go around with your son-in-law when he was getting these 
contracts to get the Continental Metal Company to sign up with him? — A. I 
went with him — happened to be with him, and he take me along one time, I 
was with him. 

Q. What did you go along for? — A. Well, he says, "You want to come along 
with me? I have to see some Jews," you know, and I went with him. 

Q. How did your son-in-law get that contract with Briggs? — A. Well, I don't 
know, your Honor. 

The Court. He didn't have any money. 

The Witness. Well, he asked me for $.5,000 and I give it to him. He said 
he was going to buy scrap. 

The Court. He had no equipment. 

The Witness. Well, he was going to buy equipment. 

The Court. What? 

The Witness. Buy or rent it. 

The Court, The time he got the contract, he lived in the same house you 
lived in? 

The Witness. Well, I never know when he got the contract. I never asked 
him. 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. Do you know what he is doing for a living? — A. I know he buys scrap 
and sells scrap. 

Q. Where? — A. He told me he buys scrap from Briggs. 

Q. You know that? — A. He try to buy scrap from Ford. 

The Court. Did you go with him to Ford's? 

The Witness. No. 

The Court. Did you go with him to Murray Body? 

The Witness. I never go no place. 

The Court. How did he get the contract with Briggs? 

The Witness. I don't know. 

The Court. Was Dean Robinson ever up to your camp? 

The Witness. I don't know who he is. 

The Court. Did Dean Robinson give him the contract? 

The Witness. I don't know. 

The Court. You know he got one? 

The AVitness. I don't know. He said he got a contract. 

The Court. He makes more money from Briggs than you make from the Stove 
Works? 

The Witness. I don't know what he makes. 

The Court. How long have you been at the Stove Works? 

The Witness. 36, 37 years — since 1912. 

The Court. He's only got the contract a year and a half now, and he makes 
more than you? 

The Witness. I don't know how much he makes. 

The Court. How much is he making over there? 

The Witness. I don't know, your Honor. I never asked him. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. How much do you make off the salvage out at the Stove Works? — A. Well, 
I never flsrured out. I know I make around about — see, I get my scrap and turn 
my slip in, do my work, and take how much scrap I take, out of the check. Even 
if I order a stove for a friend of mine, take everything out, I get five or six 
thousand a month. 

The Court. Five or six thousand dollars a month? 

The Witness. Yes ; I got five trucks that work and seven men. 

The Court. How much profit is in that? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 303 

The Witness. Well, profit would be — profit I make with the scrap, close to 
four thousand dollars a month. 
The Court. Profit? 
The Witness. Profit ; yes. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. You showed us a check for $4,.500 one night over at the police station. — 
A. Yes. 

Q. Would that be about one month's profit? — A. Yes, about one month's profit, 
because I pay the man. It run about $3,000, $4,000 clear profit. 

The Court. How many years did you go to school in Italy? 

The Witness. I went to school around seven or eight years in school. 

The Court. You never went to school in this country? 

The Witness. I never went to school in this country. I went to night school, 
try to learn, see everybody playing, I don't go no more — when I first came to 
this country. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. You only went to the third year. What does that mean? — A. What? 

Q. You told us this morning you only went to the third year. — A. Third grade. 
I stay two years, three years each grade. 

Q. You were smart enough you didn't have to go to school? — A. I was not 
smart. I was dumb. I used to go swimming instead of going to school. 

The Court. How much are you worth, Sam? 

The Witness. How much am I worth? 

The Court. Yes. 

The Witness. I got $32,000 my son-in-law want to give me the other day. I 
said, "If you got it and want to, pay me." And I got $11,000 I got with stock in 
the Stove Company shares, and I got some cash my wife handles. I got about 
^10,000 in the bank, you know. I got cbecks here the other day and went to put 
in the bank $.5,000 in the savings bank and I got around $3,000 or a little better, 
^4,000 in the checkbook to pay my men, so every time, every week I make my 
payroll. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Have you got a safety deposit box? — X. No; I never had one. My wife 
got one. 

Q. How much has she got in there? — A. I don't think she got any money in 
there. 

Q. How much stock has she got in there? — A. Around eleven thousand. 

Q. How many bonds have you got? — A. I don't know if she got any bonds. 

The Court. War bonds? 

The Witness. I think .she got some, you know. 

The Court. With all that money, you were buying bonds during the war? 

The Witness. What I do, Your Honor, I give my wife check and she handle 
•everything. She pay gas bill, pay repairs 

The Court. That's only peanuts. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Out of three or four thousand dollars a month that wouldn't dent it. — A. 
W^hat? 

Q. Out of three or four thousand dollars a month that wouldn't dent it. Where 
is the rest of it? — A. We .save it. 

Q. Where have you got it?— A. I bought $11,000 worth of shares. 

The Court. When did you buy that? 

The Witness. I don't know if 

By Mr. Garber : 
Q. You mean you have 11,000 shares? — A. Yes, that's right. 
Q. How much a share? — A. I don't know how much they pay. My wife 
bought it, you know. My son-in-law went and bought it for me, see. 
Q. Which son-in-law? — A. Carl. 

Q. Did you pay around $10 a share? — A. I think I pay more than $10 a share. 
Q. You got 11,000 shares? — A. Eleven thousand worth of shares. 
The Court. $11,000 worth? 
The Witness. I don't know how many shares. 
The Court. But you have $11,000 in it? 



304 ORGANIZED CRIME IN IXTEIRSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Yes, $11,000 in it, and be getting three to four hundred divi- 
dends, they call it. That's a little higher now. 

The Court. You own a house on Townsend? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. What's that number? 

The Witness. 616, 614 Townsend, double family flat. 

The Court. Two flats? 

The Witness. Y"es, sir, I buy it before I got married. 

The Court. How much did you pay for that? 

The Witness. I pay $5,000 at that time. Now I want to sell, all I get is six 
thousand. I'm going to keep it. 

The Court. You bought it before you got man-ied? 

The Witness. Before I got married. 

The Court. You have been married since 1921? 

The Witness. 1921 

The Court. You came over here in 1912? 

The Witness. Y'es, sir. 

The Court. And in nine years you bought the house for cash? 

The Witness. No, I don't. I pay a few thousand down ; pay seventy to one 
hundred every month. 

The Court. Do you own any other property? 

The Witness. A cabin up north. 

The Court. How many acres? 

The Witness. 40 acres of land — 40 acres, and I pay $1,.jOO cash. 

The Court. Where is that? 

The Witness. Cummings. 

The Court. Cummings, Michigan? 

The Witness. That's about four or five miles into Cummings. 

By Mr, Garber: 

Q. What's the name of the people in that house on Town.«end? Who lives 
there? — A. One is a molder, he works in the Stove Works. He's a committeeman^ 
see. 

Q. Whafs his name? — A. They call him John. I can't spell that name. 

The Court. An Italian name? 

The Witness. No, American — both American — one living upstairs, one living- 
downstairs. 

The Court. What's the other fellow's name? 

The Witness. I don't know the name, to tell you the truth. 

The Court. How long have they lived there? 

The Witness. The one upstairs lived there a few years, John Offers is the one- 
works in the Stove Works, he's downstairs. 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. Does he work for you? — A. No; for the company — he work for the com- 
pany, and the one lives upstairs, I try to make him move out of the house, because- 
he drink too much, make a lot of noise. I can't move him out. He stay in there. 
I can't remember the name. 

Q. How long have you been making this three thousand dollars or four thousand 
dollars a month? — A. Well, I got five trucks in there. 

Q. How long have you been making that $3,000 or $4,000 a month?— A. Well, 
when we come out of Leavenworth, they give us a contract, run the coreroom. 
We used to make, both brothers, twenty-five, thirty thousand dollars a year, me- 
and Gasper. 

The Court. Together or apiece? 

The Witness. Together ; and now, since we split, about three years ago, he 
took the coreroom and I took the trucking, and scrap business. We split partners 
and I don't know if I made fifty thousand, fifty-two thousand, the whole business,, 
and I had left about twenty-five, thirty thousand profit. 

The Court. You took about fifty or fifty-two thousand gross? 

The Witness. Gross ; yes. 

The Court. And net about $25,000. 

The Witness. Something like that. I never figured out. I have an idea it 
would be that much. I got a man I pay $100 a month. He do all the work — 
what I pay out, what I get in. 

By Mr. Garber : 
Q. Who is .your auditor? — A. A fellow lives in Grosse Pointe. He works for the- 
County Building, you know. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 305 

Q. What's his name? — A. I don't know his name. 

Q. How do you get hold of him? — A. I don't call him. He comes to the house 
himself. 

Q. Wliat's his name? — A. If I could call my wife, she would know his name. 

Q. If your wife ever died, you wouldn't be able to do anything. — A. My wife 
can do everything. She write and read in English. 

The Court. Was slie born in Italy? 

The Witness. Born in Italy — came over here younger— went to school here. 

The Court. Was .she born in Sicily? 

The Witness. Sicily ; yes. 

The Court. You are all Sicilians? 

The W^ITNESS. Sicilians, right. 

The Court. Every one of you fellows — Gentile is a Sicilian? 

The Witness. Gentile is a Sicilian. Of cour.se, theirs is a dilferent town. He's 
from a different town than I come from. 

The Court. You come from Sicily, all you brothers? 

Tlie Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Coco comes from Sicily? 

Tlie Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Gentile comes from Sicily? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Your wife came as a little girl? 

The Witness. A little girl. 

The Court. She talks good English, does she? 

The Witness. Sure she does. If I could talk like my wife. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. She knows the man's name that makes up your income tax? — A. Yes; Mr. 
Conner, they call him. 

Q. Where is his office? A. I don't know. He works for the County Building. 
He takes care of everything. 

The Court. He works there now? 

The AVitness. He work'* there. 

The CotTRT. In the County Building? 

The Witness. In the County Building. 

The Court. The treasurer's office or where? 

Tlie Witness. I don't know where he works. He said he works in the County 
Building. 

The Court. How do you get hold of him? 

The Witness. I don't know. ^ly wife find. I don't find. 

B. Mr. Garber : 

Q. What is his first name? — A. Well I don't know, your Honor. 

Q. Who does he work for? — A. He works for the County Building, that's what 
my wife tell me. I say. "What does he do?" She say, "He's a clerk, working in 
the County Building." see. 

Q. How many years have you h.ad him working for you? — A. I don't know if it's 
a year and a half or 2 years, you know. 

Q. You sav vour son-in-law wanted to pay vou the .$.S2,000 he owed vou? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. Didn't you take it? — A. I told him. if you need it, keep it, see. 

Q. Does he pay you any interest? — A. Interest? No. I take interest from my 
son-in-law? I don't even let him pay rent for the house. 

Q. He lives for nothing? — A. He's my .son-in-law. 

Q. He's got more money than you have? — A. Well, I am glad. I wish he had 
lots more. 

Q. You haven't any more daugliters not married about my age, have you? — A. 
No ; I got one, she's in college right now. 

The Court. What college? 

The Witness. Some place in New Jersey. 

The CoiTRT. What's the name? 

The Witness. I don't I'cnow the name of the school. 

The Court. The name of your daughter? 

The Witness. Pauline. 

The Court. You don't know the name of the school? 

The Witness. My wife took her over, and when my daughter got married 
Sunday, she left her at the train. 

The Court. How old is that girl? 



306 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Seventeen. 

The CouET. The daughter who is married to Renda is how old? 

The Witness. She must be about 23. 

The Court. And the daughter that married the fellow that has the gas 

station 

The Witness. About 20 years old. 

The Court. Who runs the gas station now? 

The Witness. His young brother. 

The Court. What's his name? 

The Witness. I'm all puzzled up with the name. They call him Gus, 

The Court. What's his last name? 

The Witness. Gus — doggone — Orlando. 

By Mr. Gabber: 

Q. How long have you had the gas station? — A. I got the gas station while the 
war was on, around three years. 

Q. You have it 3 years? — A. I think it would be around about that much — 2Vi, 
three years. 

Tiie Court. What are you doing telephoning up to Keego Harbor? 

The Witness. Telephoning to Keego Harbor? 

The Court. Yes ; up at Orchard Lake. 

The Witness. I never called, your Honor. 

The Court. Who calls up Orchard Lake from your place? 

The Witness. I never heard nobody call from my place. 

The Court. Well, the calls went in from there. 

The Witness. I never called. 

The Court. Do you know Gerald O'Brien up there? 

The Witness. I don't know. 

The Court. You don't know him? 

The Witness. Never see. 

The Court. You never heard of him? 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. Do you know anybody by the name of Morton? — A. Martin? 

Q. Yes. — A. I know the Jew boy, Charles Martin. 

Q. Yes ; I know. But up at Keego Harbor, up there where Mrs. Thompson 
lived? — A. I don't know. 

Q. A woman. — A. I never heard. 

Q. You never called her? — A. I never called nobody. 

Q. Have you ever been hunting up there where that body was dropped? — A, 
No, sir. 

Q. How do you know? — A. How do I know? 

Q. How do you know you have never been hunting up there? — A. I don't know, 

Q. Where was the body found? — A. I don't know. 

Q. How do you know you haven't been there? — A. You said, "been hunting."^ 

Q. No; I said, have you ever been hunting up where the body was found? — A. 
I never been up where the body was. 

Q. Have you ever been hunting? — A. I don't know where the body was. 

Q. Have you ever been hunting up there? — A. I don't know where the body 
was. 

Q. How did you cut her throat? — A. I never cut the throat of nobody. 

Q. What did you hit her on the back of the ear with? — A. I never done that^ 
your Honor. 

Q. Do you know who did it? — A. I don't know. 

Q. Did Gentile do it?— A. I don't know if he did. 

Q. Did you ever ask him if he did? — A. Sure, I ask him. He said he don't 
know. 

Q. When did you ask him? — A. The time the police send me. 

Q. What did you tell him?— A. Well, I told him 

Q. Didn't you tell Gentile the day you were up there with this other Italian boy 
if he told on you, you would break his neck? — A. I never did. AVhy should I tell 
him? 

Q. AVhat did you tell him? — A. I never did. 

Q. What did you tell him? — A. I asked him if he knew anybody done it? 

Q. Who was with you? — A. I never had anybody with me except the police. 

Q. Who was with you, your son-in-law? — A. No, sir. 

Q. Have you got any hunting knives? — A. Sure, I got hunting knife. 



ORGAlSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 307 

Q. Is that what you used to cut her throat? — A'. No. sir. 

Q. Have you got hand axes? — A. Sure, I got hand axes. 

Q. Did you use that? — A. No, sir. 

Q. What do you use them for? — A. I use when I go to my camp, take every- 
thing along with you, hunting knife, ax. I had a wonderful present this year, 
you know. 

Q. What did you liave in 1945?— A. What? 

Q. How many did you have in 1945? — A. I don't have any in 1945. 

Q. Why did you get a new one? — A. I ain't. They bought it for me, a new one. 

Q. Who? — A*. I got it home. My son-in-law bought it for Christmas present. 

Q. What happened to the old one you had? — A. I never had an old one. 

Q. Didn't you always have one? — A. I always got laying around the cabin. 

The Court. You just said you bring up the knives? 

The Witness. Well, the knife I take it back. I got ax up there, a big one to 
chop the wood. 

The Court. And you got a little one at home? 

The Witness. A brand new one home. 

The Court. You had an old one home? 

The Witness. I don't know if I got it or not. 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. Where is the old one? — A. If I got it, I got it home. 

Q. Why don't you know if you got it or not? — A. Because I got so many things 
laying around the house, I don't know if I got it. 

Q. What are you mad at Gasper for? — A. When this happen at the Stove 
Works, he don't want to pay half the money for the other brother. The other 
brother don't have much money, and I say we pay fifty-fifty, you and I. 

Q. What money did you have to pay? — A. Well, bond money and lawyer money, 
and he don't want to pay. He says, "You write our brother, always want him to 
come to this country. He come over, he got in trouble. You pay." I say, "You. 
feel you don't want to do anything for my brother. You go ahead." We split 
the business. I never talked to my brother since that time, three years ago. 

Q. Which one of your brothers got in trouble? — A. Matthew. 

Q. What did he get in trouble over? — A. With the guns. 

Q. What did the other one get in trouble over? — A. He never got in trouble.^ 
He stayed one year and died in this country. 

Q. That isn't the first time Matthew got in trouble? — A. The first time. 

Q. Over the guns? — A. Over the guns. 

Q. It cost you $1,000 to get out on bond?— A. And $1,000 for Gasper. 

Q. And how much to get Matthew out? — A. The lawyer charge around four or 
five thousand — was around six thousand, the whole thing. 

Q. You wanted to pay half of it? — A. I wanted to pay half of it. My brother 
had a lawyer come after me, want to sue me. He don't want to pay anything. 
When he come after me, he start to sue me. 

Q. What lawyer? — A. Bellanca. 

Q. He was going to sue you? — A. Yes. 

Q. He charged you how much? — A. Four thousand .some dollars. 

Q. He was going to sue you because you didn't pay? — A. He didn't want to 
pay. He want my brother Matthew to pay. He say. "It wasn't my fault he have 
the gun over there." I told Gasper, "You pay half," I pay half." I didn't want to 
be sued. He turn around and say he don't want to. I lost Gasper and I lost 
the other brother ; the other brother died. 

Q. And you lost the $4,000?— A. And I lost the money. 

Q. So you and Gasper haven't spoken since? — A. Since then haven't spoken 
together, just for that. 

Q. Did you have Gasper to your wedding?— A. No ; he don't come in. 

Q. Did you go to his wedding?— A. I went to his wedding because I like his 
kids. 

Q. Who invited you? — A. His wife. 

Q. Did you have any trouble about it? — A. No. What trouble I have? 

Q. You had a lot of trouble. Did you ever meet Mr. Dean Robinson? — A. I 
don't know who he is. 

Q. Did you ever meet him? — A. I don't know who the man is. 

Q. Well, he's the man your son-in-law got the contract from out at Briggs. — A. 
I never met nobody in Briggs. 

Q. I didn't say you met him in Briggs. Where did you meet him? — A. I never 
met him no place. I don't know nobody in Briggs. 



308 ORGANIZED CRniE IN IXTEIRSTATE COMMERCE; 

Q. Were yoii surprised when he sot the contract out to Briggs? — A. Why 
should I be surprised? It's none of my business. 

Q. Well, did you ask him how he got it? — A. I don't ask him his business. 

Q. Well, he wanted to borrow $.5,000 from you. — A. Well, when he borrowed 
it, he told me he's going to buy scrap, and I lend it. 

Q. Did you ask him where he was going to buy it? — A. He told me he was 
going to buy scrap from Briggs. 

Q. Did he tell you how he got the deal? — A. No, I never asked him. 

Q. Did you talk to Charles Martin about it? — A. No. 

Q. Did you ever know there was an understanding they were to beat people up 
for that scrap contract? — A. I don't know nothing. 

Q. What do you know about those live beatings? — A. I don't know nothing. 

Q. You knew five people were beaten up out at the Briggs? — A. I don't know 
people are beaten up. 

Q. Wasn't that the reason your son-in-law got the contract? — A. I don't know 
nothing about it. 

Q. Did you furnish the men to do those beatings? — A. I don't furnish nothing. 
Why should I beat the people for? 

Q. So he would get the scrap contract. — A. How is he going to get the scrap 
if he beats the people? 

Q. Well, you know what I am talking about. — A. I don't know, your Honor. 

Q. Did he ever give you an interest in that business? — A. I don't need nobody's 
interest. I got enough about my own interest. 

The Court. Do you know anything about the Thompsons at all? 

The Witness. How do I know? I don't know the people. 

The Court. Did Gentiles ever tell you anything about the Thompsons? 

The Witness. Never tell me nothing. I never go to the people's house. 

The Court. Well, here, you made a statement on November 5, 1945, at the 
prosecutor's office in Pontiac, didn't you? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. What? 

The Witness. I don't know if it was in 194.5. 

The Court. That was it, November 1, 194.5, and Captain Leonard was there, 
from the State Police, and Glover was there, the officer, and Mr. Syler, from the 
State Police. 

The Witness. Well, I did know the name, you know. I know Glover, you 
know, and I know Sheehy. Mr. Leonard was sitting by me. He say, "I am Mr. 
Leonard." He give me a cigarette. That's the first time I see him. I don't 
tnow who he was. 

The Court. You know the Gentiles? 

The Witness. Who, the Gentiles? 

The Court. You know Gentile? 

The Witness. My uncle, sure, I know my uncle. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. When you talked to Gentile, what did he say about jumping in the river.^ — 
A. Well, he was so scared, you know. 

Q. Of who, you? — A. Not me. "I afraid I might get killed from Mr. Thomas." 

Q. Mr. Thompson? — A. Yes. "I feel like I go out and jump in the river." And 
I went in the Stove Company and I notified the boss. I went up to the old man, 
he was crying. 

Q. Who was crying? — A. The old man. He said, "I feel like I jump in the 
river," because I did a.sk in the shop if he knows anybody goes out with this 
woman, anything about it, and he says, "I feel like I go jump in the river," 
the old man. He tell me he don't know nothing. 

The Court. What's he going to jump in the river for? 

The Witness. Well, he's a man never Jieen in trouble, and he's preach, you 
Ifnow, he's preach, you know, in the church. 

The Court. He's a preacher for the Christian Science Church? 

The Witness. That's right, and he's so honest. He figure they think he 
nok something about it. He said, "I don't know nothing. I feel like I jump in 
the river," see. 

The Court. How did he happen to go out there and identify that body? 

The Witness. Well, I don't know. 

The Court. He knew she was going to get killed, didn't he? 

The Witness. I don't know nothing about it. 

The Court. Who was going to do that job? 



ORGANIZED CRIM® IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 309 

The Witness. I don't know about it, your Honor. How am I going to know? 
1 never see tliese people, never know in my life. 

By Mr. Garbek : 
Q. Who did the job of the beatings at the Briggs plant?— A. I don't know 
anvthing about the Briggs plant. 

Q. You know they were beaten up, don't you?— A. I don't know. 
The Court. What kind of a car were you driving in October 1945? 
The Witness. I had Mercury or Ford, one of the two. 
The Court. One of the two? 
The Witness. Yes. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. What was the blood in the car when you went out there? — A. It was a 
Packard. I had a turkey in the car. 

Q. A Packard? — A. Packard car. and I had a turkey in there, and some 
pheasant, the day the season opened. 

Q. And there was blood in the car? — A. And the pheasant and the turkey 
were in there alive, and got all crippled up, bump in the box ,and see there was 
blood of the pheasant and turkey. 

Q. Have you got that Packard car now? — A. No. 

Q. Where is it? — A. I sold it to this man. Vivona. 

Q. Where is he? — A. He's in the old country. 

Q. You don't know where the car is? — A. No. I don't know where it is. 
See. they checked the blood of the pheasant, and I offered them to leave the 
car there when I was in Pontiac, when I went with my car. 

Q. Have you one of thos^ little trailers you put behind the car? — A. Yes, I got 
one I put on the jeep. 

Q. A trailer for the jeep? — A. Yes, I bought this year when I go deer hunting. 
A little small trailer, a jeep trailer. I never use it before. 

Q. Did you have one in 1945? — A. No. 

The Court. Well, what did your uncle. Gentile — why was he so disturbed that 
he wanted to jump in the river? 

The Witness. Because he was blame his wife, you know, lend her the money. 
Now. he says, "I am in trouble." He was so worried, scared, when he was 
questioned by the police. 

The Court. How much money did he lend Mrs. Thompson? 

The Witness. He said he lend .$1,500. I don't know, you know. 

The Court. When is the last time you were up to the Thompson house? 

The Witness. I never been to the Thompson house. I never been in his 
house. I don't know where he lives. 

The Court. Who did you send up there? 

The AViTNESs. Nobody. I never send nobody, your Honor. 

The Court. When is the last time you were over to the Gentiles farm over 
there? 

The Witness. I never been. I don't know where his farm is over there. 

The Court. What does the house look like? 

The Witness. I never see the house. I never see the farm, your Honor. 

The Court. Did you send somebody out that night she was killed? 

The Witness. I never see the farm. I don't know he had a farm, till you 
people tell me. He never tell me he had a farm. You go ask Gentile. I never 
knew he had a farm. 

The CouuT. Did you do the job yourself? 

The Witness. No, never — what job? 

The Court. What? 

The Witness. What kind of job? 

The Court. On this woman here. 

The Witness. I never touch no woman. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Why does he accu.se yon of it?— A. What? 

Q. Why does he accuse you of it? — A. T don't know. 

The Court. She says here — where is that paper? See what she says. Now,. 
Sam, here's what she wrote. She wrote this note to her father, and it was in 
Russian, see. and we had it translated, you know, into English, and she wrote 
this : "Dear Father : If after this day yon don't see me, and you don't heai" 
anything of me, then go on Jefferson and find a man by the name of Sam Perrone 



310 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

and ask him where I am. This is the doinss of my husband. In all probability 
he is tired of me and intends to marry her." That's the girl. "Everything 
that belongs to me legally, I leave to you, Father." Signed "Lydia." 

The Witness. I don't know anything about it. 

The Court. Well, you have a place of business on Jefferson Avenue, haven't 
.you? 

The Witness. I have a gas station on Jefferson. 

The Court. Jefferson, at the corner of Concord? 

The Witness. Canton and Jefferson. 

The Court. Your name is Sam Perrone? 

The Witness. They call me Sam Perrone — Santo Perrone. 

The Court. They call you Sam? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. Why should this woman write that when she was about to be 
killed? 

The Witness. Well, I don't know anything about it. I don't know if she 
wrote it or didn't write it. I don't know. 

Mr. Garber. Well, she wrote it. 

The Witness. I don't know anything about it. 

The Court. And she knew your name? 

The Witness. Everybody knows my name. 

The Court. Is there any other Sam Perrone in Detroit that you know? 

The Witness. Look in the telephone numbers. There is Perrone. 

The Court. Is there anybody named Sam Perrone that has a business on 
•Jefferson Avenue? 

The Witness. I don't know. 

The Court. You are the only Sam Perrone on Jefferson Avenue? 

The Witness. Maybe I am. 

The Court. You are the only Sam Perrone on Jefferson Avenue? 

The Witness. Maybe I am. 

The Court. Well, you know that. 

The WiTNES :. I don't know anybody besides me. 

The Court. Y'our name is Sam Perrone, isn't it? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Court. And you are in business in a gas station on Jefferson Avenue, is 
that right? 

The Witness. Sure. "" ' 

The Court. And your wife is the niece of Gust Gentile, isn't that right? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. And Gust Gentile works for the Stove Works? 

The Witness. Sure. 

The Court. You don't pay him, do you? 

The Witness. No, I don't pay him. He works for the company. 

The Court. He works for the company? 

The Witness. Why certainly. 

The Court. And Latona is a brother-in-law of Gentile? , 

The Witness. Of Gentile. 

The Court. And he works for the Stove Works? 

The Witness. Sure. 

The Court. And the last night this woman lived, she slept in — strike it out, 
The last night this woman lived was Wednesday, October 10th, and that night 
she went to dinner, Mrs. Thompson went to dinner with Mrs. Latona, Mrs. Coco, 
and Mrs. Gentile. Then after dinner she returned to Latona's house, and Latona 
lives next door to Gentile, and she went to bed that night, and she slept in 
Latona's house. She slept with Mrs. Coco. Mrs. Coco should have gone home 
!and slept with her husband, but she stayed there that night, and slept with 
Mrs. Thompson, and she got up the next morning and went to the bank with 
Mrs. Coco, and then took Mrs. Coco home, and afterwards that day she met 
Mrs. Coco again. Now, after the death they find this note in her home, and 
she says to her father, "If after this day you don't see me, and you don't hear 
anything of me, then go and find a man by the name of Sam Perrone and ask 
him where I am." 

The Witness. Well, I don't know how she could write a note like that. 

The Court. Did she ever pay you any money? 

The Witness. No, I never see the woman. How is she going to pay me any 
money? 

The Court. I may never see you, but I could still pay you money. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 311 

The Witness. Nobody pay me. The only people pay me is the Stove "Works, 
where I work. 

The Court. Did you ever agree to do anything for her? 

The Witness. I never .see. How am I going to agree to do anything? 

The Court. Well, did you send out a couple of gunmen to help her out? 

The Witness. No, never, never know these people. How am I going to send — 
they never talk to me. I never meet them in my life. I don't know my uncle's 
friends. You ask him if I know any other friend, anybody. I don't know his 
friends at all. The only.tiiae I see is at the Stove Company. 

The Court. Now, after you were up at Poutiac with the oflBcers, you went 
to the Gentile home, didn't you? 

The Witness. Tliis was when the police send me. 

The Court. I know one night the police sent you and you went with your wife? 

The Witness. My wife. 

The Court. And Mrs. Gentile and Mr. Gentile and you and you wife went out 
to the State Police. 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. But before that 

The Witness. I went with the police. 

The Court. No, before that you went to Gentile's house. 

The AVitness. No. 

The Court. After you had seen the note? 

The Witness. No, I never did. 

The Court. Well, you said you did before. 

The Witness. I went with the police, that's the only time I went there. 

The Court. You went with Glover and Sheehy? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Tlien you went another time? 

The Witness. No. 

The CoiTRT. With an Italian? 

The Witness. I never went back with no Italian. 

The Court. Was that the fellow, tlie Italian that did this job? 

The Witness. I never went with no Italian. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Who is this Sam Perrone that lives on Holmcomb? — A. I don't know nobody. 

Q. Has he got a place on Jefferson? — A. I don't know. I see there is a few — 
•Sam Perrone. Joe Perrone, in the telephone book. A lot of times they call me, 
the telephone people, and I talk to them, and it's not the guy, you know — some 
other Perrone. They ask me if I am Joe Perrone. I tell them I am Sam Perrone, 
see, there's lots of Perrones. 

The Court. How do you pronounce it? Perrone or Perroni? 

The Witness. Perrone, with the "i" — with the "i" at the last, Perrone. 

The Court. P-e-r-r-o-n-i? 

The Witness. I write it mvself sometimes with the "i", sometimes with the 
"e". 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Who calls you Sasa? — A. Everybody from the old country call me Sasa. 

The Court. What does it mean in English? 

The Witness. Nickname — wlien I was a baby, they call me Sasa. 

Q. What does it mean in English? — A. Well, Sasa — he means — Sasa, that's my 
name, see. 

Q. Translate the name. — A. Well, I could write you. 

Q. Pasquale means AVilliam here? — A. Well, I can't tell you, ju.st like my little 
grandson Vito Renda— Santo, they put my name in there, the name of the grand- 
father. I call Sasa to my little grandson. 

Tlie Court. What did you have to do with this thing? 

The Witness. Wluit thing? 

The Court. What did you get mixed up in it for? 

The Witness. I don't get mixed up. I don't know anything about it. 

The Court. Thompson got you in this deal? 

Tlie Witness. I don't know Thompson. 

The Court. Thompson got you in this deal? 

The Witness. I don't know Thompson. 

The Court. How much money has Tliompson paid you since 1945? 

Tiie Witness. I never see the man in my life. You go ask tlie man if I ever see. 

The Court. Who killed this woman? 



312 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. I don't know, your Honor. 
By Mr. Garber: 

Q. Where is the Carson Motor Sales? — A. I don't know. 

Q. You told them once you knew where it was? — A. No. sir, I never did. 

Q. Do you remember making this statement at the prosecutor's office when 
Prosecutor Noggle out there asked you this question — do you remember being 
questioned by the prosecutor? — A. I don't remember, no. 

Q. Well, you were questioned out there, weren't you? — A. Where? 

Q. Pontiac? — A. Well, a year and a half — a year ago. 

Q. Do you remember this question : "Do you know where the Carson Motor 
Sales is on Hamilton?" "Answer: Yes." — A. No, .sir. I never did. 

Q. You never made that answer? — A. I never made that answer. 

Q. Do you know now where the Carson Motor Sales is? — A. No, sir. 

The Court. That Buick you had in October 194.j, you sold it to a fellow 

The Witness. I never had a Buick, your Honor. 

The Court. I mean, the Packard. 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. When did you .sell it? 

The Witness. I don't remember. It must be around a year ago, you know, 
eight months, something like tliat. 

The Court. What did the fellow do with the car? 

The Witness. I don't know what he done with the car. 

The Court. What's the fellow's name? 

The Witness. Vivona, all I know, the first name. 

The Court. You don't know his last name? 

The Witness. He was a boy come from the army and he wants to buy a car, 
and I sold him the car, and then he sold his car and went back in the old country. 
He come over to visit me before he's gone back to the old country. 

The Court. Is he gone for good? 

The Witness. He's going to come back here. 

The Court. Is that the guy that did the job? 

The Witness. No, that guy is real nice. The job? I don't know who done 
the job. 

By Mr. Garber: 
Q. How old was he? — A. He must be around 30 years old, .32. 
The Court. Think hard. Who is the Italian you brought up to Gentile's house? 
The Witness. I don't know. I never brought no Italian. 
The Court. They examined that Packard car and fdund blood in it. 
The Witness. I had a turl^ey in there and the pheasant. I had one live turkey 
in there. I bought it in Mount Clemens. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. How would a live turkey get blood in there? — A. Well, started running 
around, bouncing around inside the car — broke his wing and everything. I had 
him tied up. 

The Court. Who cleaned the blood off? 

The Witness. I don't clean the blood off. 

The Cottrt. Who did? 

The Witness. I leave it the way it was. 

The Court. It had the blood right there? 

The Witness. Yes, they see it was pheasant blood. 

The Court. Was it much stained witli blood? 

The Witness. No, it was fresh from the turkey. I had the turkey right in 
the car. 

Tlie Court. Did the officers examine the car? 

The Witness. Sure, the officers examined the car. 

The Court. What officers? 

The Witness. Pontiac. 

The (^oURT. Did Glover exanun(^ it? 

The Witness. Glover no was there that time.* 

The Court. He didn't examine it? 

The Witness. No, it was the sheriff, some other police officer. I don't know 
what was tlie name. 

The Court. How long did Glover stay up at your hunting camp this year? 

Tlie Witness. A couple or two or three days. 

The Court. How long did he stay last j'ear, 1945? 



ORGAXIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEIRCE 313 

The Witness. A couple of days. 

The Court. What time was he up there in 1945? 

The Witness. What time, what do you mean? 

The C'orRT. You know the season, what time? 

The Witness. Well. I don't remember your Honor. 

The Court. Well, it was after the Thompson murder? 
■ The Witness. Yes, it was after the Thompson nmrder. 

The Court. When was the first time you ever met Glover? 

The Witness, oh, I met Glovtr thirty years ago. We work in the factory 
together, before he gets the policeman. 

The Court. How hmg is he a policeman now? 

The Witness. I dou't know. 

The Court. Ten years, five? 

The Witness. It must be more than ten years. 

The Court. But you knew Glover pretty well, in the foundry? 

The Witness. Sure. 

The Court. He was a good friend of yours? 

The Witness. Sui-e, good friend of mine. 

The Court. You don't know if Glover's wife is Italian or not? 

The Witness. S lie's Italian. 

The Court. Does she speak Italian? 

The Witness. I nevei' speak Italian to her. 

The Court. She Sicilian, too'.' 

The Witness. She's Northern Italy, I believe. 

The Court. Palermo? 

The Witness. I don't know. I never ask the town she come from. 

The Court. Has Glover visited your home here? 

The Witness. He never been to my home. 

The CoT'RT. Hdw did you meet the wife? 

The Witness. Well, sell them a stove. He got a beer garden on, what's the 
name, Cornier, and the first time I take the stove over there 

The CoTTRT. Who's got a beer garden? 

The Witness. Glover, his wife, or his son, whoever it is. 

The Court. Does Glover run a beer garden? 

The Witness. No, his son run it, and his wife, I guess. 

The Court. And his wife? 

The Witness. Brother-in-law — the whole gang. I was up there once. I sell 
them a stove. 

The Court. You were in the beer garden? 

The Witness. Once I was in the beer garden. 

The Court. You don't drink, yourself? 

The Witness. I don't drink myself. I brought the stove. 

The Court. When the Detroit Stove sells a stove, you carry them away in 
your own trucks? 

The Witness. S'ure. 

The Court. In 1945 when Glover went up there, he didn't have hunting togs? 

The Witness. No. 

The Court. Just street clothes? 

The Witness. Clothes like we got ourselves right now. 

The Court. Do you know what part of October or November he was up there? 

The Witness. I don't remember. 

The Court. When does the season open? 

The Witness. Opens the 15th. 

The Court. Of what? 

The Witness. November, I guess. 

Mr. Moll. Deer season. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moll. Yes. 

The Coubt. Before he went up there he was investigating the Thompson 
murder? 

The Witness. Y'es, sir. 

The Court. Was he over to .vour house? 

The Witness. Not my house. 

The Court. He had you go over with Sheehy? 

The Witness. I met him on Seven Mile Road, you know, they call me, and 
I find Sheehy and Glover in there. Then one day he called me and he had a 
newspaper and wanted to see me, and I went over to his house. The newspaper 



314 ORGAJSriZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE C0AI2VIERCE 

asked me the question, what I know about the case. I told him I don't know any- 
thing. 

By Mr. Garbek: 

Q. Where does Glover live? — A. He lives Springwell, something like that. 

Q. How did you know where to go? — A. Well, I know the house. 

Q. Where is it near? — A. Between Warren and some other street — close tQ 
Wan-en. 

The Court. You know the house? 

The Witness. I know the house. 

The Court. How- many times have you been in his house? 

The Witness. Well, I been a few times in his house. 

The Court. When? 

The Witness. When he call me, and I take the stove in there, and he sold me 
the freezer, you know, I went over and pick it up. 

The Court. He called you after the murder, and then you delivered a stove. 

The Witness. No, this stove was a long time ago, I deliver in the beer garden,^ 
not in the house. 

The Court. After the murder, did he call you and tell you to come over to 
his house? 

The Witness. No, he don't call me. The newspaper went to him and called 
me. 

The Court. Called you from where? 

The Witness. His house. 

The Court. W^honi did you go over with? 

The Witness. Myself. 

The Court. Alone, and you sat down and talked to him about it? 

The Witness. Newspaper was there and newspaper asked me a question. 

The Court. You have been always good friends? 

The Witness. Known for years. 

The Court. He's a good fellow. 

The Witness. A good fellow for me. 

The Court. Sure. Now, you have been thinking some time? 

The Witness. Thinking of what? 

The Court. I say, you have been thinking, you have had a chance to think. 
Who was that Italian fellow came up with you to your uncle's house? 

The Witness. I never went with Italian fellow. 

The Court. Did you ever go there alone? 

The Witness. I never went alone. 

The Court. We understand you went along with an Italian? 

The Witness. I never went with an Italian. 

The Court. You never introduced the Italian? 

The Witness. I never went with an Italian. 

The Court. Is he the guy did the job? 

The Witness. No, I don't know anything about it. your Honor. 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. You say now you didn't go up alone? — A. I never go there alone. I went 
with my wife, and I went with the police, and ask my uncle 

Q. You told us already today you went up there alone. — A. I never did. You 
question my uncle. Three, four, five, six years I never go to his house, unless 
his son got married, invited to his wedding. My daughter got married. I in- 
vited him to my wedding. The only time I see my uncle is at the factory. 

The Court. Why didn't you talk to him at the factory? Why did you go to 
the house? 

The Witness. The police send me to go to his house. 

The Court. You didn't have to follow the police. 

The Witness. They say, "Go down there." I ask him. I don't want anybody 
to see me go over. I don't want them to see, the guys. 

The Court. At the factory? 

The Witness. I don't want to see him. He said, "You go down, help us." 

By Mr. Garber : 
Q. Who?— A. Glover and Sheehy. 

Q. Is that when you went alone? — A. I never went alone. 
Q. Did you go over there with this Italian fellow? — A. I never been with no 
Italian. 



ORGA]SriZED CRIME IN IIMTERSTATE COMMEIRCE 315. 

Q. Now, wait a minute. Listen, did you go over with this Italian fellow to 
the home of Gentiles, and Gentiles got on the telephone and had the Cocos come 
over, and Tom was there, Tom Latona, and you talked to all of them and wanted 
to know, and you were shaking your fists, and you said, "How did that woman 
get my name?" — A. I never see Tom, nobody, over at my uncle's house. Nobody 
was tliere when I went there. There was my uncle alone. 

Mr. Garber. There's about five people say he was there with this Italian fel- 
low — Mr. and Mrs. Gentile, all the rest of them — there's about five people say he- 
was there. 

The Witness. They can say anything they want to. I don't know. I never 
been there. 

Mr. Garber. Well, I don't know — it looks to me like we have to get these other 
people back. Let's get it straightened out, how many times he was there, who. 
he was with and so forth. 

The Court. What else do you know about this? 

The Witness. I don't know anything, your Honor. 

The Court. You said you don't know Dean Robinson? 

Tlie Witness. I never heard of the name. 

The Court. Do you know Mr. Briggs? 

The Witness. I never heard of him. 

The Court. Did you ever hear of Briggs Manufacturing? 

The Witness. I heard of the Briggs factory. I don't know nobody, the owner- 
of Briggs. 

The Court. You don't know the man himself? 

The Witness. I don't know. 

Mr. Garber. Do you know Mr. Cleary? 

The Witness. I don't know him. 

The Court. Did you ever hear of him? 

The Witness. I never hear of him. 

The Court. How did your son get that contract ? 

The Witness. How do I know? Ask him. 

The Court. You are making what, four to five thousand dollars a month: net? 

The Witness. You mean $4,500? 

The Court. Yes, $4,500 a month ? 

The Witness. You .iust said forty-five thousand. 

The Court. Forty-five hundred. 

The Witness. Some months make less, some months make more. 

Tlie Court. About $4,500? 

The Witness. About that average. I got five trucks working and seven men-,, 
see. 

The Court. And seven men? 

The Witness. And myself. 

The Court. And Gasper has the core contract with the Stove Works? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. What does he make a month? 

The Witness. I don't know what he makes. 

The Court. About how much? 

The Witness. He makes three to four thousand a month. He got 25 men 
working. 

The Court. How -much? 

The Witness. Three to four thousand dollars a month. 

The Court. How many men has he got working for him? 

The Witness. About 25 men. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. The reason you don't .speak to Gasper, because Gasper wouldn't come 
through with half the attorney fees and bond money, when your brother and 
Gasper and you got in jail over the first at the Stove Works? — ^A. That's right. 

Q. And you haven't spoken to him since? — ^A. Since that, I haven't talked 
to him. 

Q. And Bellanca is the one charged you $4,000 for that ease? — A. Yes. 

The Court. And they dismissed that case? 

The Witness. I don't even go to court. They got me arrested, got out on bond, 
I don't go no place. The FBI call me, give me my gun back, my pistol back, 
all ray sbells, everything. 

The CoTLTiT. Now, listen Sam, on the 14th of October 1946, you, were out 
hunting, doing a little pheasant hunting, weren't you? 



316 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. I don't know when I went. 

The Court. Well, I mean the time you got' into court on the thing last 
October. 

The Witness. I don't remember. 

The Court. Well, the time they took the gun away from you. Do you re- 
member when they took the gun away? 

The Witness. Yes. I don't go hunting. I went to try my dog and lost my 
dog. 

The Court. Who was shooting out the windows of the car? 

The Witness. I don't shoot. 

The Court. What fellow was shooting in the car? 

The Witness. I don't have nobody shoot in the car. 

The Court. Who was with you that day? 

The Witness. An old man, a friend of mine. 

The Court. What's his name? 

The Witness. Dick is his name. 

The Court. Did these officers find him today? 

The Witness. Well, I show them where he lives. 

The Court. Over on Concord? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. Now, you were out in Mount Clemens and then you drove home 
to your place ovei* on Beaconsfleld. 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. And when you got there, there were two officers there? 

The Witness. There was one. 

The Court. Well, there was another fellow in front and one in the rear. 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Two of them, and you had two guns, didn't you? 

The Witness. Sure. 

The Court. And the one gun was loaded and one wasn't? 

The Witness. It wasn't loaded. It was jammed — little .22 shell can't come 
out and I take it to fix it the week before. And I try a .22 if it work, and it is not 
working. 

The Court. Anyway, they confiscated that gun? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. And brought a charge against you over before the Justice of the 
Peace in Mount Clemens? 

The Witness. Took me with them. 

The Court. And it cost you what, $50? 

The Witness. Something like that, fifty-two. 

The Court. The information we have you put your hand in your pocket and 
picked out a big bunch of bills and you counted off five hundred. 

The Witness. No, sir. 

The Court. And offered it to the officer. 

The Witness. That's all I told him, "You don't have to take me. If you 
leave me out on bond, I pay the bond and be up there." 

The Court. Did they take you away that day to Mount Clemens? 

The Witness. I went there. They took me with them. 

Mr. Garber. Over to Justice Parent? 

The Witness. I don't know who it was — some .iudge, whatever it was. 

The Court. After you got served with the subpoena, you tried to get the 
gun back ? 

The Witness. Why, sure ; the gun belongs to me. 

The Court. But you tried to get it back after you were served with a subpena 
here. 

The Witness. No. I was try to get it. I got his number, the game warden. 
I go up to his house one Sunday. I went to see his father-in-law. I found 
his wife, because they told me at the time, "The gun you can buy back." 

The Court. Why didn't you get it back right after that, right after they took 
It away, after you paid the fine? 

The Witness. Well, I been busy", get things ready for the wedding, and buy 
this, buy that, I never had no chance, you know. My trucks, bad weather, 
one get a flat tire, one motor don't run, you know, I had a lot of work to do. 

The Court. You don't carry a pistol? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

The Court. But you have one? 

The Witness. Sure. I got two. I got 32 and 45. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 317 

The Court. Automatic? 
The Witness. No; 6-shot, you know. 
The Court. And they are in your house? 

The Witness. Sure. I got them in my house. One I got in the gas station, 
one in the house. 

The Court. Which one have you got in the gas station? 

The Witness. Tlie 45 pistol. 

The Court. It is a good one? 

The Witness. I don't know if it's a good one. 

The Court. Are you a good shot? 

The Witness. Why sure. I been hunting all my life. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Did you ever hunt where that body was found?— A. I don't know where 
the body was found. 

Q. Did you ever hunt out there? — A. I don't know, 

Q. You might have?— A. What? 

Q. You might have been hunting there? — A. Well, I don't know. 

Q. Which way do you usually go hunting? — A. Well, I go most of the time 
up north, you know. 

Q. Where do you go around here? — A. I never go out around here for years, 
you know. 

The Court. Where were you that day last October? 

The Witness. My mother-in-laws', Mount Clemens. 

The Court. Is that where you go hunting? 

The Witness. Why, sure. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Is that the only place? — A. This year I don't have a chance to go hunting, 
except deer season. 

Q. Did you have a small-game license this year? — A. Sure. 

Q. You buy a license and didn't go hunting? — A. I bought — if I got work to do, 
I never go hunting. First come my work at the plant. If I have time, I go 
hunting. 

Q. How many pheasants did you kill this year? — A. Three or four pheasants. 

Q. How many rabbits? — A. I don't kill one rabbit this year. 

Q. How many did you kill last year? — A. A few, you know. 

Q. Where did you get those? — A. I go up north, my place. 

The Court. How many rooms in that cabin? 

The Witness. That's one big room. 

The Court. One big room? 

The Witness. And got in there little partition so can sleep in there, bunk up and 
down. 

The Court. Partitioned off for bunks? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. One on top of the other? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. That's where Glover stayed? 

The Witness. Yes. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Did Sheriff Thomas go up there hunting? — A. I don't know. 

Q. You saw him out at Pontiac. Didn't he come up hunting? — A. No, sir ; he 
didn't come. 

Q. How many times did you see Sheriff Thomas? — A. I see two times up there, 
that's all. 

Q. Did you ever see him any place else? — A. I don't know who he is. If I see 
now, I don't know the guy. 

Q. What conversation did you have with him, to keep your name out of the 
paper? — A. Well, I told him I don't want to have my name in the paper, I don't 
know these people. Why should they disgrace me. The newspaper — they keep 
me in garage till they go away. 

The Court. What? 

The Witness. They keep me in garage. 

The Court. Kept what in the garage? 

The Witness. Keep me in the garage. Drove me up there. 

68958— 51— pt. 9 21 



318 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEKCE 

By Mr. Gakber : 

Q. Who drove you up? — A. A short, big fat guy. I don't know his name, you 
know. 

Q. Did you give him any money? — A. I don't give no money. He don't ask for 
any money. Why should I give him money? 

Q. Why should you oifer this fellow $500? — A. I get out on bond; I got work 
to do. I said, "You go ahead to Mount Clemens. I be up there." I don't offer 
no money. If I pay $50, $100 fine, I should give him $500? I be crazy to do that. 

The Court. It might be worth it to keep your name out of the paper. You 
tried to keep your name on that note out of the paper. 

The Witness. I don't stop them. It was in. 

The Court. Who kept your name out of the paper? 

The Witness. I don't know. The prosecutor and, oh, like you people, don't 
disgrace me in the paper. I have trouble with some guns. It look funny. I 
don't want to be involved with this thing. And all I said, they put it in the 
paper anyway, a piece, and broadcast on the radio. Some people told me, "I 
heard your name on the radio." 

The Court. Is there anything further you want from this fellow? 

Mr. Garber. Not anything I can think of. 

The Court. Well, Sam, you're pretty tired now. 

The Witness. Yes. Well, I am not tired. 

The Court. Do you want to stay with us late tonight? 

The Witness. No. I would like to go home. I want to eat. If you want me 
to come back, I come back any time you want me to come back. 

The Court. I tell you what I am going to do. I am going to let you go. 

The Witness. I come back any time you want me. 

The Court. Come back Thursday morning at ten o'clock. 

The Witness. Ten o'clock I will be here. 

The Court. The reason I say Thursday, Wednesday is a holiday. 

So you come back Thursday at ten o'clock. 

The Witness. Any time. 

The Court. Nobody hurt you today, did they? 

The Witness. No. You ain't hurt me, your Honor. 

The Court. We used you as a gentleman, didn't we? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. You can tell your lawyer you were used as a gentleman. 

The Witness. I certainly tell my lawyer. I want him to excuse me if I make 
a mistake. What I say, "prosecute him" — he's the prosecutor. 1 ain't prosecute 
him. I don't mean that. 

(Witness excused.) 



State of Michigan 

in the circuit court for the county of wayne 

(Misc. No. 72,052) 

In Re: Petition of Gerald K. O'Brien, Prosecuting Attorney of Wayne County, 
for a One-Man Grand Jury Investigation into the commission of certain crimes 
in the County of Wayne 

Proceedings had and testimony taken in the above-entitled matter, before 
Honorable George B. Murphy, Circuit Judge, sitting as a One-Man Grand Jury, 
at 1974 National Bank Building, in the City of Detroit, Michigan, on Monday, 
November 18th, 1946. 

Present : Mr. Lester S. Moll, Special Assistant Attorney General ; Mr. Ralph 
Garber, Assistant Prosecuting Attorney. 

Reported by : Margaret Cameron, Reporter. 

7 : 55 p. m. 

George H. Herbert, being by the Court first duly sworn, was examined and 
testified as follows : 

Examination by Mr. Gaebee : 

Q. What is your full name? — A. George Henry Herbert, known as George H. 
Herbert. 



ORGAIsriZED C'RrME: in INTERSTATE COMMERCE 319 

Q. What is your present address, Mr. Herbert?— A. 1891 East Outer Drive; 
that's Detroit. 

Q. Detroit. You have been formerly employed by the Briggs Manufacturing 
Company? — A. I was general supervisor of salvage. 

Q. And how long did you hold that position?— A. The present position was 
about ten years. 

Q. And what were your duties as supervisor of the salvage department? — A. 
I sold all salvage material, made all contracts. 

Q. Would you give us an idea of the volume of the salvage sold by the Briggs, 
say, in the last five or six years? — A. It varied, but I would say a nice safe 
average would be a million and a half a year. 

Q. A million and a half dollars' worth of salvage a year? — A. Yes. 

Q. Did that increase in the war years?— A. Yes; it increased, I guess, up to 
two million, a little over two million. 

Q. And who had the contracts, we will say, five years ago, that purchased 
most of the salvage? — A. It was divided up into the various contracts with the 
various types of material, such as, scrap iron was sold to the Woodmere Scrap 
Iron Company, 

Q. Who is the owner or operator of that? — A. One of the owners is Dave 
Freedman, Louis Freedman, and their father. It was two sons and the father 
owned the business. 

Q. And they handled most of the scrap iron? — A. They handled all of the 
scrap iron hauled from the Briggs. 

Q. I see. — A. Then the other contract was held by the Continental Metal 
Company, by father and son, Daniel Temchin, the father, and the son's name, 
Max. 

Q. And where is the Continental located? — A. On Russell near Conant. 

Q. And the other that handled the scrap iron, where are they? — ^A, The 
Woodmere Scrap Iron is 9100 West Fort Street — 9101, if I am not mistaken. 

Q. So between those two, most of the scrap iron was handled? — A. Conti- 
nental Metal Company handled all metal, nonferrous metals, where Woodmere 
Scrap Iron Company handled all the steel that was hauled by trucks. In Silver- 
tetine Company, also known as Ennis, which was later dropped to the N. Sil- 
verstine Company — he is the sole owner — he purchased all bundled — hydraulic 
bundles of steel scrap. 

Q. And where are they located? — A. That was hauled out in carloads, and he 
is now located at 6-Mile Road near Mt. Elliott. 

Q. And did those three purchasers take care of all the scrap or were there 
others? — A. Then there was all the paper scrap hauled by truck to the Levine 
Waste Paper Company, owned by brothers and daughters of the original owners, 
Mamie Levine and Sam Levine, being the active members. 

Q. And where is the Levine Paper Company? — A. They are located over on 
Alger near Russell. It was one of the largest paper companies in the City of 
Detroit. All material sold, we received from five to fifteen bids on each type of 
material, and all bids was opened up in the presence of all who wishes to be there 
present, so there could be absolutely nothing but fair and square bids. 

Q. And the contracts then were entered into with the highest bidder? — A. With 
the highest bidder. Why I am mentioning that, because it will enter in later on, 
as to how the Renda received bids. 

Q. And that was the practice over a period of years, of having bids? — A. Ever 
since I took over the department, I should say, assistant, about eighteen years 
ago, I set up that system. 

Q. I see. — A. And I carried it out all the way through. 

Q. So anyone wishing to purchase any of these scrap materials would bid 
so much a pound or hundredweight, and those bids were opened in the presence 
of competitive bidders. — A. And with my secretary, we compiled all figures before 
everyone, and everyone was permitted to hear the bids. 

Q. So each one would know what a competitor bid? — A. At the same time, all 
contracts were fair and square, all contracts were entered into for 30, 60, or 
90 days. 

Q. Why such a short period?— A. Because of the fluctuation of the market. 
Assuming we talk of the paper — the paper markets varied weekly, but we took 
monthly contracts. 

Q. Monthly contracts? — A. Yes. 

Q. How about the ferrous metals? — A. The metals and iron was all 90 days 
because it held a steady market. 



320 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEKCE 

Q. And when did you first have a change in this procedure, Mr. Herbert? — 
A. The first was in January of 1945, when Carl Renda and L. Martin 

Q. Is that Charles Martin or L. Martin?— A. I think, if you look at my state- 
ment, you will verify whether it is Charles or what the exact name is, but I am 
very sure it is Charlie Martin. 

Q. According to this report dated September 7, 1945, you say you first met 
Carl Renda on or about March 27, 1945, and he was with one Charles Martin.— 
A. That would be correct. What date was that? 

Q. On or about March 27. — A. January, February, March — maybe that is true. 

Q. 1945? — A. Yes. That, I was thinking, was January, because it was the 
very beginning of the new contract, and we enter into the new contract before 
the other expires. That would be January, February, March, and it would be 
March in place of January. 

Q. So you first met Carl Renda and Charles Martin sometime the latter part 
of March 1945?— A. That's right. 

Q. Tell us of that meeting. What transpired? — A. Well, when the two men 
came in they wanted to know if they could handle my business, and they would 
like to see the bids that I had received, so that they would know what to bid, and 
inasmuch as they wouldn't be the first man I ever threw out of the office for 
making that remark I was a little reluctant, because there was two of them, and 
I told them that I didn't do business that way. 

Q. Well, then, after you refused to tell them about the bids, or show them the 
bids, what happened relative to this matter?— A. Then they told me they would 
take it up with higher-ups, because they see they can't do business with me. 

Q. And who were the higher-ups they may have mentioned at that time? — 
A. They didn't mention it at that time. They said, "higher-ups." That's as far 
as it went, until I was called into the office, Mr. Cleary's office, who was director 
of purchases. 

Q. Was he over your Mr. Herbert; that is, Mr. Cleary? — ^A. Mr. Cleary had no 
connections with me other than sanctioning, okaying, directing sales. That is, 
we talked things over, but he had no direct overseeing of me. It was just 
merely because he was in closer contact with the markets than Mr. Lilygren, 
George Lilygren 

Q. Who is Mr. Lilygren? — A. Who was at that time my boss and held the posi- 
tion as — I better not say assistant comptroller, because he held so darned many 
different jobs. We will call him head of the Time Department, Time Study, 
Cost Department, and Salvage Department. He had so many titles, I can't recall. 

Q. Is he still with Briggs Manufacturing Company? — A. No ; he is now in busi- 
ness for himself, as assistant organizer. 

Q. Where is he located? — A. Woodward Avenue, that real skinny building, 
just two blocks this side of Jefferson Avenue, the building is only 20 feet wide — • 
John French's building. 

Q. That's where he is located? — A. Where his office is at the present time. 

Q. I understand Mr. Cleary has since A. Passed away. 

Q. All right. What happened in Mr. Cleary's office? — A. Mr. Cleary called me 
up and told me, or asked me if I had met these two gentlemen, and I told him at 
that time I had met those two men before, and I wanted to know what he wanted 
me for, so he told me I was to give those fellows all the cooperation that I po.s- 
sibly could, and I was to give them all of the business as directed, and the reason 
that he mentioned that particular point, because these two men were not in a 
position to handle all of the material, because they did not make their connec- 
tions with everyone, in order to handle all of our business. 

Q. Well, now, just explain that statement a little bit. What do you mean by 
that, Mr. Herbert? — A. Before Carl Renda came in to see us, as I understand, 
he went to the various different companies throughout the City of Detroit, and 
asked them if they would be in a position to handle all of the material coming 
from a large company, not mentioning who it was. 

Q. Yes? — A. And a company like H. B. Hamburger, who handled all our trim 
scrap before the war would not do business with them, because they had an idea 
who Renda had reference to. The Woodmere Scrap Iron Company was always 
willing to do business with anyone, anyway. I will mention that in particuar. 
The Continental Metal Company did not care to do business with them, so you 
can see that it was a little hard to get cooperation from everyone that they 
went to. 

Q. How old a man is Mr. Renda? — A. I would say 26 or 27 years old. He is 
married, and has one child, or did at the time I was up there. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEKCE 321 

Q. And Mr. Martin, approximately how old a man is he? — A. I would say 
closer to 45 or 50. 

Q. Is there any truth to this rumor, I heard he is a disbarred attorney? — A. 
I understand he practiced law until such time that he had shady dealings and 
he was disbarred. Now, that is only hearsay. I have no proof of that. 
Q. Was that here in Detroit or some other state? — A. In Detroit. 
Q. But he had practiced in Wayne County? — A. I understand he did practice 
law. 

Q. Now, after you had this out with IMr. Cleary. what happened relative to 
these bids? — A. l" was directed to give all of the metal to the Carl Renda Com- 
pany at the price that he entered into with Mr. Cleary, and all evidence of the 
bids at that time proved to me that they had access to all other bids. 

Q. Well, were they lower than the other bids, or did they meet them? — ^A. 
No. The reason they were not lower at that time was because we were handling 
government material, and they knew I was a very loyal government representa- 
tive. 

Q. What about those materials that were being handled for the Briggs Com- 
pany, were tliere any of those or were they all government materials? — A. There 
was no one outside myself could determine what was government and what 
wasn't government, and so they thought they would work with me in the very 
beginning. 

Q. And so it is your opinion, then, that they were given advance notice as 
to the bids submitted by others, and they met those bids, or in the neighbor- 
hood? — A. There was all evidence they did meet all bids at that time. 

Q. Then, after they obtained this business, what happened subsequent to 
that time? — A. At that time, there was a lot of material not in the bids, just 
material that would come up between them, and I more or less resented them, 
and didn't call them in to purchase some of the material, so I was called back 
to Mr. Cleary's office and warned never to let this happen again. I must at all 
times give them an opportunity to bid on all the material at Briggs, government 
or otherwise. 

Q. So they did continue then — they did, in effect, take all the salvage of the 
Briggs plant; is that correct? — A. Practically speaking, they received everything 
from Briggs at that time, and then a little later on they were in a little bit of 
trouble with the service of the Woodmere Scrap Iron Company, and I was at 
that time going to throw everybody out and get a whole new outfit in, and life 
wasn't very happy for me for a while. 

Q, In what way? — A. Well, I was warned that if I didn't keep my mouth 
shut 

Q. By whom? — A. By — this was taking place at a meeting. I don't know 
where the meeting was, but these two fellows come to me and begged me to lay 
off them if I knew what was healthy for me, because they were going to get me 
out of Briggs or out of existence, either one. 

Q. What do you mean, two men at Briggs ? — A. No. This was held at a meet- 
ing. Renda and his father-in-law and others were attending this meeting, so 
as soon as this word got out, these two parties came over to me to warn me to 
lay off. but I went on with the FBI, and that's when I made that statement there. 

Q. You were warned you were going to lose your job or something was going 
to happen to you? — A. I was going to lose my job or something was going to 
happen to me, if I didn't cooperate with them. 

The CoTjRT. What's Renda's father-in-law's name? 

The Witness. Perroni, L., I think it is. 

By Mr. Gabbeb : 

Q. Now, what was the connection between these men who told you? How 
would they happen to be at the meeting of Perroni's and Renda's? — A. They 
weren't at the meeting, but they were tipped off by a party who was at the 
meeting. I wanted to use with the FBI their name, but they said positively 
don't connect them, because they were in business and wanted to continue in 
business, and it wouldn't be healthy for them. It's just well enough he liked 
me, he wanted to continue on in business and just, for goodness sake, lay off. 

Q. As I told you before, we are in a confidential business here, and we have 
quite a task, if what I have been led to believe is true, as to the operations of 
these particular matters. I understand it has some rather far-reaching complica- 
tions and effect, and I would like to have the whole story here, and I will assure 
you the whole story will remain here, as to who these parties are, and as to how 
this whole thing came out. Of course, if we just kind of get a bird's eye view 



322 



ORGAlSnZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEKCE 



without any details, it isn't going to help us very much, but I will be frank to 
tell you, what you want to give us here is building a basement to use in creating 
a structure, and the only way we can do that is to have all the knowledge, to 
use it as a foundation for further investigation. That's what we are interested 
in, so I would like to have you be frank with us, tell us what it is. We are all 
under an oath of secrecy. There is nobody in the Grand Jury but who you 
see here, and I would like you to be very frank with us. As far as the young 
lady taking the testimony, she will handle it, write it up, and it will be kept as 
such. 
The Court. And kept in the vault. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. So I think you can speak freely and as far as using names, so forth, we 
perhaps will use this as a basis to build something, but we will have the whole 
picture, so I would like to have you be as frank with us as I am trying to be 
with you. It is contidential and certainly we are doing nothing to bring any 

injury A. If these two fellows" names were ever mentioned, as sure as I am 

sitting here, it would hurt their business. 

Q. It would if somebody but us knew it. That may be true. — A. If there's 
any way — if they would ever be involved in it, because he is right now next to 
the picture and doing business with it, and he would deny, because I am already 
out of the picture, he would deny anything to save their own neck, as much as 
they claim they like me and would do anything for me. 

Q. Well, we have a serious task to perform in this matter, and we would like 
to have all the information. — A. If you would read between the lines you could 
have found it when I said "father and son." 

Q. Well, of course, we would have to have done a lot of wild guessing on 
that, and these people you refer to here as "father and son," they receive in- 
formation from someone who did attend the meeting. — A. That's right. 

Q. Do you know who that party was?- — A. Well, I don't know who their 
party was who was giving them the information, becavise it was to their ad- 
vantage to have the information, and they were paying plenty for it, and it was 
for their benefit as well as mine. 

Q. So they were paying for their information so they could keep track of how 
things were going? — A. Because it would have meant an awful lot to those 
people, if I stayed on the job. It meant a lot to a lot of people, because when you 
deal with honest people, it doesn't cost so much. 

Q. So far in our story, INIr. Herbert, the only thing being done that was a trifle 
unfair, was that Mr. Renda and Mr. INIartin had advantage of knowing what the 
other people were bidding, is that right? — A. That's right. 

Q. But they were all, to all intents and purposes, meeting the other bids? — 
A. That's true, but that isn't all of the picture. 

Q. We want to go on with the picture from there. 

The Court. Is Renda Italian? 

The Witness. He is — the whole family. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. A graduate of Albion College, sometime in 1944 or 1945. — A. That's i-ight, 
he just got out of school. 

Q. He married the Perroni girl?^A. Yes. 

Q. Then he went in with this fellow Martin? — A. That's right. 

Q. And they were absolutely new in the scrap business? — A. In fact, they 
hadn't received their license. I thought I could get them on that account, but I 
found out it was easy to get a license. 

Q. Did they have a license at the time they were there trying to get the 
bids? — A. They didn't havea license a long time afterwards, and I wanted to 
investigate and find out when they did get the license, and who informed them it 
was necessary to get it. 

Q. So this young man, just out of college, apparently no business background, 
and Mr. Martin, who had been disbarred, were given approximately a million 
and a half dollars' worth of business in salvage from the Briggs factory? — A. 
That's right. Even though they did meet the highest bid, they then had the con- 
tract and went to Woodmere Scrap Company, and tried to negotiate a deal with 
them to haul all the material, as they never had trucks, office, telephone, or ex- 
pei'ience, and it would be necessary to have five to ten trucks to haul our 
material, and there were very few companies in the City of Detroit able to haul 
all our material, so after an all-night session, the Woodmere Scrap Iron and 
Louis Friedman was the proprietor, negotiated the Renda deal to pay $1 for every 



ORGAl^IZED CRFME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 323 

ton of material hauled out of Brings, that Renda and Martin didn't as much 
as sign their name, and they received $1 per ton. 

Q. Approximately how much money would that run into, Mr. Herbert? — A. 
■Conservatively, say, about $100 a day that they paid. 

Q. So, without experience or any trucks, they were able to assume $100 every 
day for what was going out of there, that is to start off with? — A. That's at the 
beginning, yes. 

The Court. Take right there, roughly, Woodmere Scrap Iron got all the scrap 
from Briggs, but the go-between was Renda and Martin? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. And clipped them for $1 a ton? 

The Witness. That's right, because they had control of the contract. 

The Court. In other words, they were like a fellow that got a lease and 
re-leased? 

The Witness. Exactly. 

The Court. And got the differential without any trouble? 

The Witness. And then they went over to Continental Metal Company and 
tried to negotiate a deal with them, and those two people, being very religious, 
even though Jews, they are the highest type, very honest and fair and square, 
refused to do business with them, and they called me up immediately and told 
me they refused to do business in that manner. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Did they want the same thing from Continental? — A. The same thing. 

Q. In other words, they wanted $1 royalty for eacli ton? — A. No, the royalty 
would have been much more, because the material sold for as high as 13 cents 
a pound. Tliey wanted a percentage royalty. They refused to do business so 
Renda then went out and got another shyster company to handle material, but 
because of the way he bandied the material, this other company couldn't work 
with me, or I couldn't work with them. We couldn't work together, anyway, so 
Renda went back to the Continental Metal Co. and finally they negotiated a deal. 

Q. On a percentage basis? — A. On a percentage basis. 

Q. Do you know what that percentage was? — A. No ; that was such a small 
amount, I never did get the exact figures of it, because it was fractionals. 

Q. Well, how long did the deal continue along tliis basis then, Mr. Herbert? — 
A. I can't recall the very beginning of the contracts now, but they went on. In 
fact, it is still going on. 

Q. Well, is there ever any time they buy this material for considerably less 
than the market value? — A. At the present time they are buying it for practically 
nothing, paying practically nothing, from what I can hear. I haven't been able 
to obtain any figures, because I liave been away almost a year now, but I under- 
stand they are buying it very cheap, both metals and iron. 

Q. Well, what was the deal so that Mr. Renda and Mr. Martin could have this 
advantage and make this royalty for apparently rendering no service whatever? — 
A. In other words, you mean, what was Briggs Manufacturing going to receive 
from this? 

Q. That's correct. — A. As I can understand that the Carl Renda Company was 
to break up any strikes that would occur in Briggs and protect them. 

Q. Protect wlio? — A. Protect Briggs Manufacturing against any future strikes. 

Q. Now, had Briggs been having considerable difficulty with strikes up to this 
time? — A. In the makings of this system, and I will go so far as to say that this 
is a system that has been studied out by years of experience, and with men that 
have had this in operation in otlier countries as well as the United States, it 
•consisted of two inches of typewritten paper, very thin, what they called the 
master plan, and the master plan was supposed to start in operation at one of 
the toughest parts in the City of Detroit, where they had the strongest hold, known 
as Commimism, and all otiier systems, and that was Briggs Manufacturing 
Company, and they started in the very beginning, in January and February and 
March, to cause more strikes than has ever been known of in the City of Detroit 
■or tlie United States, and if you will just let me get my coat, I will show you 
exactly what I mean. I have a copy of it. 

Q. Now, on the date of 5-16-44, I see you have a clipping from the Free Press 
in which it is noted the number of strikes in which the Briggs had involved 
12,000 workers from March 1 to 10.— A. That's right. 

Q. And it's just previous to that you first met Mr. Renda and Mr. Martin? — A. 
That's right. 

Q. And how many strikes, if you know, work stoppages has the Briggs had 
since this system of salvage has gone into effect? — A. I haven't the exact 



324 ORGAI^IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMENCE 

records, but they have it on the books, but I understaud it is very, very few. 
We do know that those strikes at that time were manufactured strikes, created 
by paid men in the company for no reason — I should say the majority of the 
strikes was for no reason other than disturbance. Their request was absolutely- 
unwarranted, no foundation, and a lot of them, when the strike was over, they 
hadn't sained a thing. 

The Court. Who started those strikes? 

The Witness. Manufactured strikes, started by various men, what you would 
be safe to say was paid to start a disturbance. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. By whom? — A. Well, later we found that if the distrurbance was caused 
and then later there was no more cause, then who would it be other than one 
in particular, and that would be Renda. 

Q. Let me get that again? How would Renda go about creating any strikes? 
How was that done? — A. He paid men working in various departments to create 
a disturbance among the fellow workmen, wanting more mone.v, shorter hours 
and a lot of the requests, there was no foundation for them, because they were 
making more money and everything was satisfactory, and they would go back to 
work with absolutely nothing, no profit from their disturbance. 

Q. Did you ever hear of the Trotzky-ites in the so-called Briggs organization 
over there? — A. No ; I don't remember of them. 

Q. Do you have any knowledge as to these beatings that have taken place 
over there? — A. Yes; we used to follow them up pretty close. We first would 
know there was going to be a strike in a certain department, and later we 
would hear of the beating, so we would always put two and two together, and 
the common remark was "Somebody's going to get hell tonight," because we 
would know ahead of time, at least a few of us would know, there's going to be 
a strike because of the disturbance caused in this department, and then later, 
somebody is going to pay for it. 

Q. What's the theory in back of that, Mr. Herbert? — A. Well, the theory that 
we figured, that Carl Renda was reimbursing Briggs for the revenue that he was 
receiving from them. 

Q. Well, don't you know, as a matter of fact, Mr. Herbei't, now, that this 
salvage contract as it existed, and the benefits that were thrown to Renda and 
Martin was a deal in which they would act as strikebreakers? Wasn't that the 
deal? — A. That was all hearsay, and it was of a foundation that was a positive 
foundation for it, that that was what they were hired for. 

Q. You sy it was hearsay. T^Hiere did this hearsay come from? What's the 
basis for it? — A. Well, an awful lot of it would be, "Did you hear what's going 
on?" Then I would get information and other fellows would get information 
and we would put all of it together and there was at least half a dozen of us 
working on this, that is, gathering the information for me, from the various 
oflBces, and departments, because I had access to every department and every 
office in the entire manufacturing end, consisting of only 34,000 employees, and 
I was one of the key men that was well acquainted with everyone. 

Q. Well, you mean this would come down to you, down through the different 
members, workers in the factory? — A. I would receive it from the workers, as 
well as I would from the foremen and supervisor superintendents. 

Q. Well, was there anything in the master plan you are talking about, was 
there anything that went back more or less to foreign governments wanting 
obsolete machinery, and so forth, from the plant? Did you ever hear anything 
as to that? — A. I think the master plan that they had reference to was used in 
Germany. 

Q. Well, did you ever see this so-called master plan? — A. I never saw it, and 
the party who was giving me the information never did see it, but his mouth- 
piece, did ; in fact, he had access to reading parts from it. 

The Court. Will you give us that name? 

The Witness. I am sorry, I don't know the man, and he wouldn't reveal it 
to me at all — "Sorry, I wouldn't want you to know any more than I am telling 
you. The only thing I can say now, I have to be part of this that might disrupt 
this entire government in the course of time," and that's as far as he would go 
with me. 

The Court. Do you know who had the master plan? 

The Witness. Carl Renda and his father-in-law. 

The Court. Had the master plan? 

The Witness. Had the master plan at these meetings. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEKCE 325 

The Court. Do you know where they got it from ? 

The WiTNRSs. No, we never could gain information as to who had written the 
master plan or where it was kept, because I did want it. I tried to get it. 

The Court. Well, what's Renda's political philosophy? Is he a Communist or 
what? 

The Witness. No, you will never hear him state anything other than pleasant 
words of business. He never states anything pertaining to religion, politics, 
pars, or anything. 

The Court. That goes for his father-in-law, too? 

The Witness. I had no dealings with the father-in-law whatsoever. 

The Court. Did you know the father-in-law? 

The Witness. I just knew of him. I never was called into a meeting with him. 

The Court. How old a man is he? 

The Witness. Up in years, probably sixty years old. 

The Court. What's his first name? 

The Witness. L — whether it would be Leo, it's L. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Now. (lid you make any figures as to how much this would amount to, 
over a .S-nionth period, the difference paid by the Renda Company and what 
other companies were paying? — A. Yes, I made a i-eport, but I just don't recall 
what the figures were. 

Q. I show you page 3 of this report, and ask you if this refreshes your 
memory at all? When was that report made, do you recall? — A. That would 
be for April through June 1945. 

Q. What do those figures show as to the difference in the amoiints there?. — 
A. Well, the difference in the amount of $967.88 for the month of May 1945. 
That's on one company. 

Q. Now, how did that difference come into being, Mr. Herbert? — A. For the 
amount of money I could have received by selling it on open bids to the highest 
bidder. 

Q. How do you knovp^ that? Do you mean that would be the market price? — 
A. That's what we would consider as a market price, and then I received the 
price I was to give the Carl Renda Company. 

Q. Who gave you that price? — A. Mr. Cleary had given me the price that I 
was to charge Renda. and here was another one, that he could have received 
$15,991 for material while we received .$14,082 from Carl Renda, or the difference 
amounted to $1„'>0S for the same material. And each month it was exactly the 
same, where the figures was a lot different. 

Q. Is that a .3-month period there? — A. The total difference for the 3-month 
period amounted to $3,346. 

Q. Amounted to about $1,100 a month you were selling for less? — A. That's 
right. 

Q. Now, you went over to the FBI, did you not, and told them about this? — 
A. That's right. 

Q. And do you know whether the FBI followed this to see if they did receive 
the full amount for material they should have received — A. The FBI had their 
auditors in there, and I understand they had taken a percentage of the amount 
of government material that was purchased against the amount of material that 
was purchased for Briggs, and assuming that the difference would be ten percent, 
then in all sales of salvage that was sold, the government received the difference. 

Q. Who stood that? Who paid that? — A. The Briggs Manufacturing Company 
had to stand the difference, but that was never verified. I was never able to 
verify any of those figures. 

Q. I understand the auditors made some IS-page affidavit from the Briggs 
Manufacturing. — A. I understand the auditors did make a statement, but how 
many pages, who it was to and who from, I don't know. 

Q. Do you know what that audit was about? — A. No, only about salvage. 

Q. Who would that auditor he? — A. That I couldn't say, but the head man of 
the auditing division would be Blackwood. 

The Court. May I ask a question : What is the tie-in between Renda, his 
father-in-law and the higher ups in the Briggs? How is that? In other words, 
when Renda came to you, you turned him out, then the fel]o\^ that died— what's 
his name? 

The Witness. Cleary. 

The Court. Cleary told you to do business with him? 

The Witness. Cleary was a go-between between W. O. Briggs, W. P. Brown 
and Dean Robinson and myself. 



326 ORGAlSnZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Q. So, Brown, Robinson and Walter Briggs A. Brown, Robinson and Walter 

Briggs 

The Court. They were the top men. 

The Witness. They were the I*>riggs Manufacturing executives who issued the 
orders to Cleary, and Mr. Cleary in turn gave nie the orders to carry out. 

The Court. That was costing over that period of time, it was costing the 
Briggs Manufacturing Company about $1,100 a month to do business with 
Renda and his father-in-law. 

The Witness. Plus the percentage that these other companies had to pay 
as a bonus for taking the material in. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Which was $1 a ton. — A. At the very beginning it was $1 a ton, but the 
later figures I was never able to get. 

The Court. Let me see. Where you could have gotten, in round numbers, 
$1,100 a month more if you were permitted to go your way 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Do I understand $1,100 a month was pocketed then by Renda 
and his father-in-law? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. That was theirs? 

The Witness. That was theirs. 

The Court. Then over and above that they got $1 a ton for the scrap fron? 
Woodmere and a percentage 

The Witness. On metal. 

The Court. On the nonferrous? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Nonferrous metals? 

The Witness, Yes. 

The Court. So the percentage on the nonferrous metals they sold to these 
companies, plus $1 a ton on the ferrous plus the differential of $1,100 a month, 
is what these two fellows, Renda and his father-in-law would take? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. And you got your orders directly from Cleary? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Cleary is the go-between, the liaison officer between you and 
the top-flight men in the company? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Walter Briggs? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Dean Robinson, his son-in-law? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Who is Brown? 

The Witness. W. P. Brown at that time was the president, and a little later 
on resigned. So now Dean Robinson is the president, and the man between 
now is Mr. Blackwood, since Mr. Cleary passed away. 

The Court. Mr. Blackwood is the auditor? 

The Witness. Head auditor, and Alex Blackwood was a very personal friend 
of mine years ago, always was. 

The Court. This is off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. What is your assistant's name that you mentioned? — A. Clifford Reichman. 

Q. Is he there yet? — A. Still there, still operating under exactly the same 
system. 

Q. There's been some talk about these Perronis, and the Thompson murder. 
What do you know about that? — ^A. Well, the day she was murdered, I hap- 
pened to be driving out to the lake, that is, the following Sunday, but at that 
time I had no connection with the Renda case at all, so I never did hear of 
any connection whatsoever with it. 

Q. You don't know anything about it? — A. I don't know a thing about it. I 
never did hear any connections at all. 

The Court. Well, she was murdered in October 1945. 

Mr. Garber. About that time. 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. Did you ever hear whose name was on that note that she wrote? — A. No, I 
never did read anything about the killing at all. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSfTATE COMMEIRCE 327 

Q. You know nothing about that? — A. Not a thing. 

Q. You say that Mr. Silverstine had known Mr. Briggs for over a long period 
of time? — A. He was a key man. 

Q. And in what way? — A. General factory manager. 

Q. And how does lie fit in this salvage picture? — A. He was buying the 
hydraulic compressed steel bundles, practically all of the obsolete machinery, 
and a lot of the salvage. 

Q. Although he was an employee of Mr. Briggs? — A. No, he hasn't been with 
the Briggs Manufacturing Company, safely, 15 years. 

The Court. But he was a key man? 

The Witness. He was the key man in the early days. 

The Court. As what, you say? 

The Witness. General factory manager. 

The Court. Where did he get his exjyerience, he grew up there with them? 

The Witness. I believe he come up with the company, even though he was a 
Jew, he was well liked by all. 

By Mr. Gabber: 

Q. So this long friendship of Mr. Silverstine was more or less interferred with 
by the contracts of Mr. Renda, is that correct? — A. Very much, and we were all 
very unhappy. 

The Court. Well, Silverstine lost that business when Renda took it over? 

The Witness. Temporarily. That is, just through talk. There was never any 
business transacted with Renda on any of this paper business Silverstine pre- 
viously bought, but— it was not only hearsay, but we knew it was going to take 
place. 

The CouET. But did it ever? 

The Witness. It interferred on general salvage, but then something took 
place that I tried for years to do, and was never successful, was to get the steel 
mills, Great Lakes Steel Corporation to purchase all the hydraulic compressed 
steel bundles back, because we bought the majority of our steel from them, so 
putting two and two together, and Mr. Silverstine was well liked by the Great 
Lakes Steel Corporation, and the reason the Great Lakes Steel Corporation did 
not buy these bundles direct back — I am getting off the picture, but I am just 
trying to give you the reason — is it all right? 

The Court. Yes. 

The Witness. Okay — that the Great Lakes Steel Corporation had to purchase 
all their steel scrap through a broker, because if they didn't, if they would buy 
it direct from the factory and not through a broker, the broker would tie them 
up when they did need the steel. The broker's fee is around 50 cents for every 
ton, and all they do is to pass it through the books, but when this picture come in 
about Renda was going to take it over, I do believe Silverstine went to the Great 
Lakes and went to the broker and said, "We will sell direct from Briggs to Great 
Lakes Steel, and Renda will not be able to put his finger on this metal," and the 
deal was made and that is when W. O. Briggs' picture went back up on the wall. 
Because when you handle 350 tons of compressed steel bundles at 50 cents a day, 
and all you do is put it through your books, Brother, that's a lot of hay. 

The Court. Well, when the deal went through direct to Great Lakes Steel 
through the broker, where did Silverstine fit in that picture? 

The Witness. That was a three-cornered picture, the broker, Silverstine and 
Briggs, working with Great Lakes Steel. If it hadn't been worked that way, 
Renda would become a broker and would have I'eceived 50 cents a ton brokerage 
fee for doing nothing. 

The Court. So Renda didn't get that business? 

The Witness. He didn't get it, and the reason they didn't get it, they are not 
smart operators — not as smart as they think. Briggs told thenn in the event 
Great Lakes Steel didn't get the bundles, Briggs couldn't get the new steel and 
they couldn't operate, and Renda accepted it as the truth, but it was a lie. 

The Court. Why was it a lie? They could get the steel anyway? 

The Witness. They could get the steel anyway. 

The Court. Through Great Lakes? 

The Witness. Through anyone. 

The Court. Through United States Steel, Jones and Laughlin? 

The Witness. A lot of companies. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. But Renda was supposed to get that, but Silverstein outsmarted him? — A. 
Silverstein outsmarted him. 



328 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Q. But the point I am trying to emphasize and bring out a little more clear 
in my mdnd, wliat did Renda have to offer Briggs that the Briggs Company ap- 
parently was about to double-cross — if I can use that word — Mr. Silverstine, 
who was an old friend of the company, and to make it so that the Briggs Manu- 
facturing Company suffered a loss of $1,100 a month, and then put him in posi- 
tion to make $1 a ton — what was he offering for that? 

The Court. In other words, that was about the question I had in mind. What 
in your opinion is the background of the introducion into the Briggs Manufac- 
turing Company of Renda and his brother-in-law, witli men such as yourself 
in there, everything going along rosy — it's true they had their labor troubles 
but others have been too — Silverstine an old timer, you m«ight say, a pal of his, 
and these other companies that have done business with them for years — what 
was it they would introduce, these two fellows, a disbarred lawyer, Martin, and 
Renda, a kid out of college, not even dry behind the ears, yes, with no experi- 
ence? 

The Witness. The first theory that we had, on the first investigation, we 
thought Renda and Martin and the fathher-in-law were blackmailing them some 
way. 

The Court. Blackmailing Briggs? 

The Witness. Yes, and W. C. Brown and Dean Robinson was entering into an 
agreement in order to keep the old man from being blackmailed or revealing 
some secret, whatever it was, on the old man, but we soon eradicated that 
after the many beatings that was caused by people starting strikes in the com- 
pany, and the union was offering rewards to any information leading to in- 
formation pertaining to these beatings of their union officials and members of 
the staff. We also have a certain amount of belief that the higher ups in the 
union are in with the Renda Company, and if I had stayed there long enough 
and been able to investigate this thoroughly 

The Court. This is a CIO union, no AFL. 

The Witness. This is a CIO union. 

Mr. Garber. Local 212. 

The Witness. I believe from information I could gather at that time, the 
higher-ups in the union are receiving part of this money Renda Company is 
receiving. We spoke of $1,100. That's peanuts today. I would like to get the 
figures of Briggs of -what they are selling their material for today since the gov- 
ernment has nothing to do with it. The government had control of it when I 
was there. What are they getting now that I am out of there — I can't get it 
from Mr. Reichman ; I can't get it from my best friends. I would like to know 
what Renda is paying. 

Q. Do you think it is the regional office of the union or the local? — A. I believe 
the officials of Local 212 is in with this. 

The Court. Can you give us the names of any of the fellows you think might 
be in this? 

The Witness. I don't know any of them. When we started on that theory, 
that was in January. That was really when I started to work then. If I 
remember, during the cigarette shortage you couldn't even buy a pack of cig- 
arettes ; you would have to line up for a block to get them — Carl Renda had in his 
car a trunkload of cigarettes, all brands, and he used to back up to the door, 
ten o'clock in the morning, at a given time, and these stewards, committee men, 
and different ones of the iniion would come there and receive their ration of 
cigai'ettes, free of charge, and I called the attention of the watchman to the 
practice that was going on, and I was called in to Fay Taylor's office along with 
Mr. Cleary, and they raked me over the coals for putting my nose in other peo- 
ple's business, and told me I was only imagining things, that Carl Renda was 
not giving out cigarettes, and I said, "If you want proof, call your watchman 
I asked to watch, so I could verify the statement." 

The Court. Who called you down? 

The Witness. Mr. Cleary and Mr. Fay Taylor. 

The Court. Who is Fay Taylor? 

The Witness. Fay Taylor is head of the Service Department and watchmen, 
so on, like that. It is what we would call the Service Department. 

The Court. Is he there yet? 

The Witness. Still there in a higher capacity. 

The Court. What is it now? 

The Witness. I don't really know what his new title is. So, that day — from 
that day on. whatever Renda would do or say to any of the men, other than my 
business, I didn't say no more. 



ORGAlSriZED CRIME IN IN'TERSTATE COMMERCE 329 

The Court. When was that about? 

The Witness. I can't recall the day or month, but I do know it was during the 
time cigarettes were almost impossible to get. I would go so far as to say it 
was i^erhaps in November or December, along in there. 

The Court. Of last year? 

The Witness. Of last year. 

The Court. Of course, they were all hard to get during the war. 

The Witness. Yes, so I don't recall just what time the cigarette deal was 
going on. 

The Court. But Renda puts in his appearance in March 1945? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. You got your working papers January 7, 1946, about ninie months 
afterwards? 

The Witness. Yes. 

By Mr. Gabber : 

Q. And you were the only one that was raising your voice in protest, shall I 
say, to the salvage deal? — A. Well, one of the reasons that I was used was, that 
everyone felt as though the company couldn't get along without me, or I was 
going to die of old age there. I was in there too solid for anybody to touch. 
My reputation was unquestionable. 

Q. When did you go to the FBI with this matter? How long before you were 
let go? — A. Well, that was just a little before I made the statement. This was 
in September, so it was August of 1945, when I called the FBI in. Well, I didn't 
call the FBI — when the FBI come in to see me. 

The Court. At that particular time, you had already seen a part of the regime 
of Renda and his father-in-law ever since March. Now, what was the thing 
that was troubling you at the time you went to the FBI, these beatings? 

The AViTNESs. Well, the one thing that prompted me to call the FBI was 
when I found this wasn't a proposition operated in Briggs Manufacturing alone ; 
that this thing was going to spread out in the city of Detroit, and after they liad 
control, it was going from one city to another, and I was told the next place 
they were going to take charge of was Ford Motor Company, and the next would 
be Chrysler. Those parties I know very well that is in charge of the Salvage 
Department, so I called Roy Struthers, who is General Supervisor of the Sal- 
vage Department of Ford Motor Company, and told him at ten o'clock, or at a 
given time, on a given day, there would be three men appear in the president's 
office, or one of the high executives that would receive them, and they would 
dictate a policy to the Ford Motor Car Company regarding their salvage. He 
immediately notified the executives of the Ford Motor Company exactly what was 
happening at Briggs, and it could be prevented there. So when these fellows 
come 

The Court. They did come? 

The Witness. They did come at the given time, and while I am calling my 
shots, they were received. 

By Mr. Gabber : 

Q. Who were; they? — A. Carl Renda, Martin, and his father-in-law. 

Q. And what company? 

"The Court. Ford. 

The Witness. Ford Motor Company. 

The Court. When did they come, what day? 

The Witness. That I don't remember exactly. 

The Court. I mean approximately. 

The Witness. I really wouldn't guess that, because as I told you before, this 
had happened over a year ago, and I was dealing in so much information. 

The Court. Was it before or after you went to the FBI? 

The Witness. That was before, because they had succeeded in coming in 
Briggs then, and inasmuch as they received an unwelcome at Ford Motor, they 
were going to lay low for a while and wasn't going to tackle the Chrysler then. 

The Court. Was John Bugas over at Ford's then? 

The Witness. I believe he was. 

By Mr. Gabber : 

Q. Do you know who the official was they saw? — A. Yes, I remember his name 
very well, and I just can't recall it now. It's a very odd name. We have a man 
in our company very near the same name. 

The Court. What is your man's name? 



330 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. He is not in that capacity any more. I can't recall the name 
right now. Was it Roash, Rush, Rausch? 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Rausch?— A. It was one of those names, but it was a big executive. 
The Court. He turned them down? 

The Witness. Thumbs down and ordered the Service Department to assist 
them out in a hurry. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. How did you get that information? — A. From the same people that had 
been giving me information before. 

Q. You mean the father and son? — A. Father and son. 

Q. In other words, they have a pretty good inside picture if they would tell 
us about it. — A. They know more than I do, because they were giving me the 
information, because we were determined we were going to break up this gang. 

Q. Now, you must- have been pretty well steamed up, Mr. Herbert, or you 
wouldn't have called in the FBI. You came down to the prosecutor's oflace 
with some gentleman from Hamtramck. — A. Mr. Spiegel. 

Q. Mr. Spiegel, and an officer I call Boots, and you talked to me and Mr. 
Schemanske, and I believe Mr. Sheridan from the State Police was with you? — A. 
Yes. 

Q. Crowding a year now? — A. Just about. 

Q. Have you told us just all you know about this? You were pretty well 
steamed up. It seems you have cooled down in the past year. You were steamed 
"up pretty well the last time, your memory is a little faulty, or you are losing your 
enthusiasm. — A. I did lose my enthusiam, because a lot could be prevented, and 
I did have hopes at that time — I knew I was going to be relieved of my job or 
bumped off. It was a case of beating them to the draw. 

Q. Were you ever threatened, your life threatened? — A. Not direct. The only 
thing, I was warned. I was very careful, every place I went, who was with me, 
and I was never alone, I could never be cornered. I had to watch myself quite a 
long time, and then the heat was off me. 

Q. After you were discharged? — A. No. After I was discharged, I didn't 
do no more. 

Q. Did you ever receive any letters subsequent to that? — A. I never received 
any letters or phone calls myself, but just recently the wife — that's why she 
called me and that's why I am here — it seems somebody was putting a little 
heat on around our place. 

Q. What's happened relative to that? — A. Well, one of the first things was 
she received a couple of phone calls, mysterious phone calls with practically no 
sense or foundation to what they were talking about. 

Q. What did they say? — A. Well, one said, "I got the wrong number," after 
she answered the phone. She said, "You evidently wanted this number or 
you wouldn't have called." He said, "Well, I certainly know when I have the 
wrong number." She said, "Who did you call?" That's how the conversation 
went, and the other person talked as though the were intoxicated. I didn't base 
anything on that, but I did become alarmed, when the car was sitting across from 
our house 

Q. Your car? — A. No. There was a car sitting across from our house, had 
two men in it, sitting there for some time and when the wife went out to mail 
a letter, they rode beside her for a while. She came right back in the house and 
stayed there, and I talked to her a day or two later. She told me. 

Q. Has your car been photographed since you have been back here, do you 
know? — A. My car? That I really couldn't say, because I am driving the wife's 
car, and I have never noticed anyone following me. 

Q. Have you been contacted by anyone from the union, to your knowledge? — 
A. No. 

Q. Have you noticed any union men around? — ^A. No, because I haven't been 
home long enough. I have been in and out of the house all hours of the day 
and night, and have never been home very much since arriving Thursday, 
but on top of that, when the wife was hanging up clothes in the back yard, 
she believes somebody stepped from the garage and hit her in the head, because 
she has tremendous knot on her bead. She was knocked down, unconscious 
for some time. 

The Court. Lately? 



ORGAIsriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 331 

The Witness. Just this week. Another time when she was going in the back 
yard, she noticed the garage door open. The wind can't open that garage door. 
It is a well built new door, so she knows there was someone was in there. 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. When was she knocked unconscious. — A. The exact day or time I can't 
tell you, because she was only giving me this information as rapid as possible, 
and I didn't go into details about any of it. 

The Court. Is she there alone? 

The Witness. She was there alone, that is, in the very beginning, when she 
come back to Detroit, which is about a month, sis weeks ago, and when she 
received calls, saw suspicious people around the house, then she began staying 
at the daughter's house on different occasions. 

By Mr. Garbek : 

Q. When was it she was hit on the head? — A. That, I believe, was last week, 
as far as I recall. She told me she didn't want to tell me anything about the 
happenings until I come back, so she just was giving me a r§sum6 of the differ- 
ent things, and I never did get the complete details. 

Q. She still has a knot on her head? — A. She still has a knot on the back 
of her head. She didn't go to the doctor's with it. She also doesn't know 
how long she was unconscious. When Mr. DeLamielleure come over, that, she 
says, was the beginning of her trouble. Prior to that, we never had any trouble. 

Q. What about a phone call you got from Mr. Silverstine relative to these 
beatings? — A. Well, Mr. Silverstine and I had talked quite a little bit about all of 
it, and he was one of the men that would receive information for me, and we 
would discuss it, and I would also get information and give it to him, so he is one 
of the men we would always remark when there was going to be another strike, 
we would say, "Somebody is going to get hell knocked out of them tonight." 

Q. When these rewards were offered by the unifon, did Mr. Silverstine ever 
make the statement you could collect that reward? — A. We never discussed it, 
because it was not a healthy proposition, but it was published in the paper, not 
only the local papers, but union papers about these rewards. 

The Court. Just a minute, I would like to bring Judge Moll up to date. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

(Witness excused.) 

State of Michigan 

IN THE circuit COURT FOR THE COUNTT OF WAYNE 

(Misc. No. 72052) 

In Re : Petition of Gerald K. O'Brien, Prosecuting Attorney of Wayne County, jor 
a One-Man Grand Jury Investigation into the commission of certain crimes vn 
the County of Wayne 

Proceedings had and testimony taken in the above entitled matter before 
Honorable George B. Murphy, Circuit Judge, sitting on a One-Man Grand Jury, 
at 1974 National Bank Building, in the City of Detroit, Michigan, on Wednesday, 
November 20, 1946. 

, . Present : Mr. Lester S. Moll, Special Assistant Attorney General ; Mr. Ralph 
Garber, Assistant Prosecuting Attorney. 

Reported by : Margaret Cameron, Reporter. 

Max W. Temchin, being by the Court first duly sworn, was examined and 
testified as follows : 

Examination by Mr. Garber: 
Q. Will you state your full name? — A. Max W. Temchin. 
Q. T-e-m-c-h-i-n? — A. Correct. 
Q. Where do you live?— A. 2726 Leslie. 
Q. What is your business? — A. I am a metal dealer. 
Q. How old are you? — A. 35. 

Q. And are you in partners with anyone? — A. Yes. 
Q. Or associated with anyone? — A. In partners with my dad. 



332 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Q. AVhat is your father's name? — A. Daniel Temchin. 

Q. Do you have a firm or trade name? — ^A. Yes, Continental Metal Company, 

Q. Where is that located?— A. 15500 Russell Street. 

Q. How long have you been in that business, Mr. Temchin? — ^A. Well, my 
dad started the business, oh, approximately 35 years ago. I have been in it 
since 1932. 

Q. 1932. What type of metals do you deal in? — A. Nonferrous metals. 

Q. And from whom do you purchase these nonferrous metals? — A. Oh, differ- 
ent accounts in the city — Packard Motor, Hudson, Briggs Manufacturing, 
Chrysler, and so forth. 

Q. And how long have you had the account of the Briggs Manufacturing? — 
A. Approximately about 21, 22 years — say 21 years. 

Q. And how do you buy this metal, by competitive bidding or is it sold to you 
under contract, or how? — A. Yes, buying the metal under contract. 

Q. Under contract? — A. That's right. 

Q. How long do your contracts last, or are they given for an indefinite 
period? — A. The shortest term contract was for three months. We had as high as 
a year contract. 

Q. Did you ever have a year contract with Briggs Manufacturing? — A. Yes, 
we did. 

Q. During the period from 1941 up to the present time, did you have shorter 
term contracts or contracts extending to a year? — A. Usually three months, but 
there was a period, I believe in 1942 or 1943, where the OPA ceiling prices pre- 
vailed, our contract just continued. They would make it three months, and 
at last six months, nine months. 

Q. Well, say, in the first part of the year 1945, did you file competitive bids 
for your metals with Briggs Manufacturing? — A. Yes ; we did. 

Q. And was there any changes made in the year 1945? — A. Yes, sir; there was, 
I believe in March 1945, which I believe would be the second quarter. We sub- 
mitted prices and we were told we were not awarded the contract. It went to 
another company. 

Q. It went to another company? — A. Yes. 

Q. Now, you had this contract with the Briggs for some time up until the 
second quarter of 1945, is that correct? — A. That's right. 

Examination by Mr. Moll : 

Q. How long? — A. How long? I didn't get it. 

Q. How long have you had the contract with Briggs? — A. Oh, up to that 
time, we done business about 20 years. 

Q. And your contract covered ferrous metals or nonferrous? — A Nonferrous. 

Q. Merely nonferrous? — A. That's right. 

Q. You had been buying Briggs scrap? — A. That's right. 

Q. Nonferrous scrap? — A. That's right. 

Q. As a result of contracts entered into after submitting competitive bids for 
a period of years? — A. That's right. 

Q. Then you bid on the second quarter of 1945 as you had continually in the 
past?— A. That's right. 

Q. And you were told then the contract had been awarded to someone else? — 
A. That's right. 

Q. Who told you that? — A. The Salvage Department, a man by the name of 
Mr. Herbert, George Herbert. He isn't any more with Briggs Manufacturing. 

Q. Did he give you any reason why the contract was taken away from you and 
awarded elsewhere? — A. Well, I went up to see Mr. Cleary, deceased now, head 
purchasing agent, and wanted to know how come, because when our contracts 
were for the last 20 years — I don't mean to say we were top bidders. Many things 
were taken into consideration. He told me at times people were bidding higher; 
but, taking into consideration our service and being pleased with the way we 
handled it, we were awarded the contract. I went up and asked Mr. Cleary how 
come we lost the contract for the second quarter. He was very vague, said it was 
just one of those things ; we didn't lose it for life ; they just made a contract for 
three months with this firm. 

Q. Did he tell you who the firm was? — A. Yes, sir; he told me. I knew it 
myself. 

Q. What did he tell you?— A. He told me our prices weren't good enough, and 
for reasons he can't tell me he couldn't go into that; we lost the contract for three 
months; we were welcome to come in again and bid again in the third quarter. 

Q. Did he say to whom the contract had been awarded? — A. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEIRCE 333 

Q. Who? — A. Carl Renda Company. 

Q. Had you ever heard of himV — A. No; never heard of them up to that time. 

Q. Did he tell you where they were located? — A. No. 

Q. Or anything about them? — A. No ; he did not. 

Q. He didn't tell you how they fit into the picture in any way? — A. No ; didn't 
tell me a thing. 

Q. Who was present at that conversation? — A. Who was present? I don't 
believe anyone. 

Q. Just you and Cleary? — A. Yes. 

Q. Cleary was purchasing agent at Briggs? — A. Yes. 

Q. W. J. Cleary?— A. W. J. Cleary. 

Q. Did you talk to him only that once or again? — A. No; about a month later 
or so there was another dealer in the city that was handling this metal, who gave 
service to this company. 

Q. To which company ? — A. To Carl Renda Company ; that is, by sending his 
trucks out, picking up the metal. 

Q. What company was that? — A. United Metals Company. 

Q. Who operates that? — A. Well, two brothers, and the father died. Two 
brothers, Phillip and Ruby Dubrinsky. 

Q. Dubrinsky ?— A. Yes. 

Q. They operated United Metals? — A. Yes. 

Q. And, so far as you know, they were collecting the scrap? — A. Yes, for 
the Carl Renda Company. 

Q. For the Carl Renda Company? — ^A. That's right. 

Q. Under the Renda Company contract for the purchase of nonferrous sal- 
vage? — A. That's right. 

Q. From Briggs? — A. That's right. 

Q. Correct? — A. Correct. 

Q. Okey. Having heard that, you went to Cleary again?— A. That's right. 

Q. And where did you see him? — A. At his oflSce. 

Q. What was that conversation? — A. That was after I was contacted. I was 
contacted by Carl Renda — well, a man that represented him. 

Mr. Garber. Who is that man? 

The WITNESS. Charles Martin, whom I know quite a few years before that, 
but didn't know he had any connections with this Carl Renda Company. 

Mr. GaEbek. Who Is this Charles Martin? 

The Witness. He is in business himself, more or less a broker in waste 
material. 

Mr. Garbek. Was he ever a lawyer? 

The Witness. I don't think he ever practiced. He told me he was a lawyer ; 
yes. 

Mr. Gabrer. Was he disbarred? 

The Witness. I couldn't tell you. I don't think he ever practiced. 

The Court. Inquire how and under what circumstances he got in touch with 
this fellow Martin. 

Mr. Garber. I didn't mean to take it away. 

IVIr. Moll. All right, go ahead. 

Mr. Garber. Go ahead. 

By Mr. Moix: 

Q. When had you first met Martin? — A. I knew Martin four or five years 
prior to that. 

Q. Under what circumstances did you meet him?— A. More or less socially, 
I never done business with the man. He handled different material than we 
ever do. 

Q. What? — A. He handled waste scrap, woolens, clippings, cuttings, that 
we don't handle. 

The Court. Where was he located when you met him? 

The Witness. He was connected with the different companies. He wasn't 
in business for himself up until a couple of years ago, when he returned 
back from the army. 

The Court. Was he in the army? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. What branch ? 

The Witness. I couldn't tell you. 

The Court. How old a man is he? 

68958— 51— pt. 9 22 



334 ORGAlSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMIVIERCE 

The Witness. About my age, 35 years. 

The CouBT. Was that always his name? 

The Witness. No ; it was not always his name. My clad knew his dad. His 
name was Margolis. 

Mr. Moll. Margolis? 

The Witness. Margolis was his original name. 

The Court. What was his original name, Charles Margolis? 

The Witness. Charles Margolis. 

The Court. Where did he live when you first met him? 

The Witness. I don't know. 

The Court. Your father knew his father? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. What's his father's name? 

The Witness. Well, Margolis. I don't even know his first name. He's dead 
quite a few years. 

The Court. Where did Martin come from ; do you know? 

The Witness. Well, I only knew him about four or five years before. 

The Court. In other words, his place of origin? 

The Witness. I couldn't tell you. 

The Court. Did he come from New York? 

The Witness. I never asked him. 

The Court. He's Italian? 

The Witness. No ; he's Jewish, 

The Court. Margolis? 

The Witness. He's Jewish. 

By Mr. Moll: 

Q. In any event, when you first met him, he lived in Detroit? — A. Yes. 

Q. You know him as Martin or Margolis? — A. Martin. The first time I met 
him he was Martin. 

Q. And he was representing various companies that purchased different types 
of scrap? — A. That's right. 

Q. Did he have an ofiice? — A. Yes; he did. 

Q. Where? — A. He was over in the Telephone Exchange Building on Cass 
Avenue. 

Q. Under what name? — A. He called himself the Continental Waste Material 
Company. 

Q. That had no connection with your company; did it? — A. No, sir; no 
connection. 

The Court. Was his name Margolis when you first met him? 

The Witness. No ; Martin. 

The Court. How do you know his name was Margolis? 

Mr. Moll. Through his father. 

The Witness. Through my father. 

By Mr. Moll: 

Q. Well, now, you say that Martin, formerly Margolis, came to see you? — 
A. Yes. 

Q. What about? — A. He wanted to know if we would be interested to handle — 
to get the Briggs account back on the same basis like United Metals, give them 
service, but he understood — he said at the time that he hated to see us lose this 
account, and we are so much familiar with the account ; we can give service, 
and there's no reason why we can't buy this metal through the Carl Renda Com- 
pany, and so forth, so I told him I will let him know. I immediately went up 
to see Mr. Cleary, W. J. Cleary, and told him exactly what transpired, told him 
I was contacted by these people, the new company and they wanted us to give 
them the service and buy the metal from them. He merely asked me one ques- 
tion, "What are you in business for?" "To make money." He said, "Why, sure. 
Well, to make money, we wouldn't think the less of you if you sent your trucks, 
you are so familiar with our account and give this company service." So I 
"went back and called Mr. Martin and told him I am interested, it all depends on 
prices, and he finally got around to it, we quoted him prices and — I didn't quote 
him prices. Then the original price I quoted, thei'e was a few different changes, 
but the market changed and we started to handle that account for Carl Renda 
Company. 

Q. All right; now, let me interrupt you there; will you? When you were 
dealing directly with Briggs for the purchase of nonferrous scrap, it was all 
on a basis of competitive bidding? — A. That's right. 



ORGA]SriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEIRCE 335 

Q. Throughout the years? — A. That's right. 

Q. And you would enter into a contract for three months to a year? — A. 
Right. 

Q. Your contract was confined to the purchase of non-ferrous-metal scrap? — A. 
That's right. 

Q. And how much did you pay for it? — A. Different prices. 
Q. Well, how much would it run? — A. How would the account run? 
Q. What did you base your contract price on? — A. Well, there were different 
classifications of metals, approximately 30 different classifications. Each classi- 
fication carried a certain price. 

Q. Per yound? — A. Per pound; some material per ton on the cheaper grades 
of material. 

Q. As part of your contract, you would have to collect that in the plants? — 
A. That's right. 

Q. Collect it and take it away? — A. That's right. 

Q. But nevertheless you would pay so much per pound? — A. That's right. 
Q. And could you tell the Court about how much you paid per month on an 
average for all the scrap you collected? — A. Of course, it all depends on the pro- 
duction. During the war there, scrap generated at the plants, five or six different 
Briggs plants, amounted to in the neighborhood about, roughly, $25,000 per 
month. 

Q. That you would pay for it? — A. That we would pay for it. Prior to the 
war, oh, like it is right now, it only amounts to about three thousand per month. 
Q. I see. But during your twenty years the amount varied, of course, in 
accordance with production? — A. That's right. 

Q. During the war the amount of scrap went up considerably, so that you were 
paying $25,000 a month.— A. That's right. 

Q. And what would that average per pound, would you say? What poundage 
would that cover, or how much a pound? — ^A. That's hard to estimate, but I will 
give you an idea. During the war the prices were low on account of the mer- 
chandise being so plentiful. During the war we figured about $50 a ton, two and 
a half cents a pound. 
Q. Two and a half cents a pound or $5 a ton? — A. $50 a ton. 
Q. That would represent a fair average? — A. That would represent a fair 
average. 

Q. On all types of material? — ^A. That's right. 

Q. Now, then, you would dispose of that scrap as you saw fit to purchasers 
from you? — A. That's right. 

Q. Now, do you know what the Renda Company bid ? — A. No ; I don't. 
Q. When you got their contract for the second quarter of 1945? — A. No. 
Q. You don't know what they bid? — A. No ; I don't. 

Q. You don't know whether they were over or under you? — A. Well, I can only 
say I never seen anything in writing, wasn't told, but it was rumored they were 
under our bid. 

Q. Under your bid ? — A. Yes. 

Q. And that would be something under two and a half cents a pound? — 
A. Well, if that would be the average, that would be so. 

Q. Just in round figures, so we won't have to get too technical, if your average 
for the first quarter in 1945 was two and a half cents a pound on all tyi)es of 
material, they must have been under you? — A. Yes. 
Q. But that you don't know?— A. I don't know. 

Q. Now, do you know what kind of a deal Renda Company had with United 
Metals for the collection of this scrap?— A. Well, it's vague, but United Metals 
paid Renda Company so much a pound for the material. 

Q. And they then collected it? — A. They picked it up with their trucks. 
Q. And disposed of it as you formerly had, we will say. — A. That's right. 
Q. And whatever they paid them would give the Renda Company its cost price 
plus some profit? — A. Cost price plus some profit. 

Q. Now, then, after Martin approached you, did you enter into a deal with the 
Renda Company? — A. Yes. 

Q. Now, what type of contract did you enter into with Renda Company?— 
A. The contract was written by Martin. The contract merely said for a period 

of three months, naturally expiring June 30, 1945 ■ 

Q. Was it for the second quarter or third quarter? — A. Second quarter we 

were getting the metal ourselves up to June 30, 1945, in consideration of the 
following prices— we listed all the classifications that we quoted them and that 
our trucks could pick up this metal from the Briggs account under the Carl 
Renda name. That's about all there was to it. 



336 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Q. Would you pay any money direct to Briggs? — A. No. 

Q. Pay it all to the Renda Company ?^ — A. Yes; like a new account, to Carl 
Renda Company. 

Q. What was the price on an average, over what you paid Briggs, on an. 
average V— A. Very small, approximately $5 a ton. If our average was two and 
a half cents a pound, then his average would have been possibly two and three- 
quarter cents a pound, $5 a ton. 

By Mr. Garber : 
Q. Fifty-five instead of fifty? — A. Yes. Of course, at that time the market 
was a little better. In other words, we didn't pay Carl Renda any more than I 
would have paid to Briggs at the time. 

By Mr. Moll: 

Q. So anything he must have made was the differential between what they 
paid Briggs and you paid them? — A. That's right. 

Q. They didn't service the account in any way? — A. No; they didn't. 

Q. How long did you have that contract with Renda Company? — A. Up to 
June 30th, 1945. 

Q. And then what happened? — A. Then the Briggs sent out new bids for the- 
third quarter, which we were very much surprised we got the material back 
from Briggs under our name. 

Q. That is nonferrous? — A. Nonferrous. 

Q. Now, generally speaking, what types of scrap are there? — A. Different 
classifications of scrap or types. 

Q. Well, there's the ferrous and nonferrous metals? — A. That's right. 

Q. And then what other types? — A. That's all there is. What other types? 
That's all there is in metals — ferrous and nonferrous. 

Q. You bid on nonferrous? — A. Nonferrous. 

Q. You never bid on ferrous metals ? — A. No, no steel. 

Q. You got the contract for the second quarter? — A. Third quarter. 

Q. The third quarter?— A. That's right. 

Q. Do you know whether Renda Company bid on it? — A. Yes; they did, as far 
as I know. I am quite sure they did. 

Q. In their own name? — A. In their own name. 

Q. Did they get any salvage contracts from Briggs for the third quarter? — 
A. Yes; they did. They were still servicing or getting the steel, the ferrous, and 
the salvage and of salvage paper, rags and clips, and all that. 

Q. They got nothing but nonferrous? — A. As I understood at the time, they 
got everything but nonferrous. 

Q. Now, you bid for the third quarter in the name of your own company — 
A. Yes ; sure. 

Q. You didn't bid for and on behalf of Renda? — A. No. 

Q. Did you have any connection with Renda in your contract for nonferrous 
scrap for the third quarter? — A. No. 

Q. None whatever? — A. None whatever. 

Q. And you didn't pay Renda Company any money as a result of your third- 
quarter contract with Briggs? — A. No; I did not. I also raised my prices 
quite a bit. 

The Court. On the resale? 

The Witness. No ; on getting the contract when we bid. See, when we made 
the original contract with Renda for the second quarter I stipulated in the 
contract at the end of that period, we are free — that is right in the contract — we 
are free to compete against that company if Briggs will send out bids. We didn't 
have to enter into any collusion with him regarding a bid to Briggs, and as a 
result went quite a bit higher and hit it on the third quarter. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. What about the fourth quarter? — A. We also got the fourth quarter. 

Q. Who got the rest of it?— A. Carl Renda, 

Q. Now, coming into the year 1946, are you getting nonferrous scrap from. 
Briggs^^ — ^A. Not direct. It's the same situation in 1946, from the beginning of 
this year. 

Q. What happened then? — A. Carl Renda again got the contract from Briggs 
Manufacturing on the nonferrous and he told me that Briggs will not send 
out any more bids. 

Q. After the first of the year? — A. After the first of 1946, so we were forced 
to, more or less, to continue on the same basis as we did that second quarter,, 
and it is up to this very minute. 



ORGA]S"IZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMEiRCE 337 

By Mr. Garbee : 
Q. Who told you no more bids will be sent out? — A. Carl Renda told me, and 
I was also told by Mr. Herbert, the salvage man at the time. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. Did you ever talk further to Cleary? — A. I don't remember. I know he 
got sick just around that time. 

Q. Around the first of the year? — A. Yes, he passed away in the spring. 

Q. Now, coming into 1946, the last time that competitive bids were asked 
for was the first quarter of 1946?— A. That's right. 

Q. Carl Renda Company got the contract for nonferrous metals? — A. That's 
Tight. 

Q. And I presume they also got the contract for the rest of the salvage?! — 
A. That's right. 

Q. And that is the last time or the last quarter that bids had been asked 
for and submitted? — A. That's correct. 

Q. So that since January 1, 1946, all scrap from the Briggs plants have been 
sold to Carl Renda Company? — A. That's true. 

Q. Have you ever seen the bids or their contracts ? — A. No. 

The Court. In other words, the Carl Renda Company gets it without bidding? 

The Witness. That's right. 

By Mr. INIoll : 

'Q. Now, they bid the first of .lanuary 1946?— A. We bid. 

Q. And they did? — A. I believe so. I don't know whether they bid or not, 
but I imagine they did. 

Q. At least bids were asked. — A. Bids were asked. 

Q. For the first quarter of 1946?— A. For the first quarter of 1946. 

Q. You submitted a bid? — ^A. We submitted a bid. 

Q. And you, didn't get the contract? — A. No. 

Q. Do you know how many luds were submitted on nonferrous? — A. I can 
only guess — I would say about five or six. 

Q. Do you know whether Renda Company submitted a bid? — A. I think they 
did. 

Q. But you are not sure? — A. I am not svu-e of that, but I think they did. 

Q. In any event, Renda Company got the contract for nonferrous scrap? — - 
A. Well, they got it about the end of the month, the end of January. We con- 
tinued getting it on the old year's prices. 

Q. Until the end of January? — A. Just around the end, when we were told the 
contract was going to Carl Renda. 

Q. And as far as you know, in addition, Renda Company have the purchase 
of other scrap? — A. That's right. 

Q. Now, then, along about the last of January 1946, when Renda took over 
and you got out of the picture so far as Briggs was concerned A. That's right. 

Q. Then you entered into another contract with the Renda Company? — A. 
That's right. 

Q. And what were the terms of that contract? — A. Similar to the terms of 
the first contract. As long as we were asked for a bid for the first three months, 
lor the first quarter, we in turn made a contract with Carl Renda Company 
for three months, stiuplating again if Briggs will send out bids again, we are 
free to compete, and at the end of three months we had to continue our contract 
because Briggs never sent bids out, asked for any bids. Meanwhile — there is 
only one little point — we are bidding at Briggs to this point direct, on different 
material, not in the regular course of business, also scrap, but any item that 
-would come up without any classification, we are bidding at Briggs, which we 
are successful in getting. 

Q. Now, as the matter now stands, you are collecting all the nonferrous scrap 
from the Briggs plant?— A. That's right. 

Q. Upder the Renda contract? — A. That's right. 

Q. What are you doing with that scrap after you collect it? — A. Well, we 
smelt some of it, put it back in ingot form, some of it we clean it, if it is con- 
taminated, and we sell carloads or truckloads. 

Q. In other words, you buy from Renda the scrap that you formerly bought 
from Briggs? — A. Exactl.y. 

Q. You collect it and Renda Company, in fact, has nothing to do with the 
collection of the scrap? — A. No. 

Q. Your Continental Metal Company collects the scrap from Briggs which 
you buy from Renda? — A. That's correct. 



338 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Q. Now, is your existing contract with Carl Renda Company reduced to writ- 
ing? A. No; we have no more contract with him. We kept — we continued, 

I believe maliing contracts ; when tlie first quarter run out we didn't have any 
contract till around June ; we just let the thing slide because he was satisfied 
with our service and we were satisfied with the account as far as the account is 
concerned, but around June we made another contract which already expired 
around October— I think October 15th, because I think it was written June 15th. 
Since October 15th again, we have no definite contract. 

Q. Well, whatever contracts you had in writing with Renda Company yoa 
still have? — A. Oh, sure. 

Q. They're in your office? — A. Yes. 

Q. You could produce them?— A. Oh, sure. 

Q. Do I understand that, generally speaking, you made as much money buying; 
the scrap through Renda as you did when you bought it direct through Briggs? — 
A. Well 

Q. Or to put it another way, you get the scrap almost as cheaply from Renda 
as you did from Briggs? — A. Just about. 

Q. I mean, with slight variations here and there?— A. That's right. 

Q. So the net result of the wliole thing was you didn't really lose any money 
by the loss of the account? — A. That's correct. 

Q. Are you still doing business with the Carl Renda Company? — A. Yes ; we do. 

Q. Where is their office located? — A. On Bellevue, I believe it is— 1135 Belle- 
vue, 1133, something like that. 

Q. And who comprises the company?— A. Just Carl Renda Company— I mean, 
just Carl Renda, really. 

Q. Who is in it? — A. I don't know if there is anybody else in it besides him. 
I don't know. We only do business with Carl Renda. 

Q. Is it a corporation or a partnership? — A. I couldn't tell you. 

Q. Your contract would show that? — A. Well, I don't remember if it is a 
partnership or corporation. 

The CouKT. Well, you originally did business with Martin? 

The Witness. No; we never did business with Martin. Martin was just 
merely more or less representing Carl Renda Company, 

The Court. He was the contact man? 

The Witness. You may call it so. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. Now, can you give us the names of anybody interested in the Carl Renda 
Company that you have ever contacted? — A. No; besides Charles Martin, I 
don't know anybody that might have an interest in the company except his own 
family probably. The only other man I ever met was his father-in-law, Carl 
Renda's father-in-law. 

Q. Who was that? — A. That was right about the time we first met Carl 
Renda. That was his father-in-law. His name is Perroni. 

Q. What is his first name? — A. I think it's Sam. 

Q. Sam Perroni? — A. Yes. 

Q. Under what circumstances did you meet Sam Perroni? — A. Well, he was 
sitting in a car, something like that. 

Q. Where? — A. In front of our office. 

Q. And when was that, approximately? — A. That was at the very beginning,, 
when I met Carl Renda. That was in March 1945. 

Q. It was about the time Renda was bidding on the job for the second quar- 
ter ?— A. That's right. 

Q. Who is this Perroni, do you know? — A. I don't know. 

Q. Did you make any inquiry about him? — A. Yes; I did, and the only thing 
I found out, he was handling the material from the Michigan Stove Company,, 
then he is also in that business more or less ; he is in the rubbish business, 
cleaning up the rubbish in the plant, but he also gets some scrap, steel and 
metals from Michigan Stove Company. Other than that, I don't know anything 
about him. 

Q. Do they have a plant, Carl Renda Company? — A. They have a yard — a 
yard and office. 

Q. They don't do any smelting? — ^A. Warehouse and storage yard. 

Mr. Gakbeb. Do you know when they first got an office and this yard? 

The Witness. Yes ; approximately about five or six months ago. 

Mr. Garber. Well, at the time they bid on this and you lost the contract on the 
second quarter of 1945, did they have an office and yard at that time? 

The Witness. No. 



ORGAJSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 339 

Mr. Garber. Did they have any trucks? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Gabber. Did they have anything that you know of to handle scrap mate- 
rial? 

The Witness. No ; as far as I know — they admitted to me they didn't have any 
way of servicing the account. Today, however, they have trucks. 

The Court. How old is Renda ? 

The Witness. About 30 years old. 

The Court. Is he experienced in the salvage business? 

The Witness. I don't think so. 

The Court. Was Martin? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. In a small way or large way? 

The Witness. No ; in a small way. 

Mr. Garber. Do you know Renda 's real name? 

The Witness. No ; that's the only name I know, Carl Renda. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. Now, you were naturally interested, of course, in why you lost the Briggs 
contract for the second quarter? — A. Yes. 

Q. You talked to Herbert?— A. Yes. 

Q. What did Herbert tell you? — A. Well, he was as much interested as I was 
to find out why all this happened. Besides rumors and opinions and all that, I 
never heard anything concrete why this is so up to this very minute. 

Q. Now, this is an entirely secret proceeding and you are wider oath? — A. Yes. 

Q. But it is absolutely secret. What did you learn from your conversations 
first with Herbert as to why this contract had gone to Renda? — A. Well, the 
original conversation with Herbert went something like this : I have learned 
from Herbert that Renda gave some sort of a service to Briggs Manufacturing — 
I don't know in which way, form, or manner — where he can control the labor 
question. How he would control it I don't know. I haven't got any idea. 
Whether he can talk to the stewards, and so forth — of course, it was his opinion — 
I am merely stating Mr. Herbert's opinion at the time — that Briggs had quite a 
few strikes and that Carl Renda would perform the service of keeping those 
strikes at a minimum, and that's the reason why Briggs were willing to put 
themselves out on a limb and give them all that business. I say this is up to 
this day, and I wouldn't swear to it. 

Q. That's Herbert's statement to you. — A. His opinion to me. 

Q. Did he give you any verification of that opinion? — A. No. 

Q. Or how he had arrived at the opinion? — A. No. It was his opinion. He 
told me that he found it out, but he wouldn't give me the source of the informa- 
tion. 

Q. Now, when you talked to Cleary, after talking to Herbert, did you discuss 
that situation with Cleary, as to why you had been moved out and Renda moved 
in? — A. Yes, Cleary told me it has to do with dollars and cents. In other words, 
our prices weren't good enough. 

Q. Now, you are familiar pretty much, aren't you, with the lay-out of the 
plants? — A. Yes. 

Q. Through the collection of scrap.— A. Yes. 

Q. Did you notice any change in the labor policy or the labor set-up? — A. No, 
I haven't noticed any, with the exception I have noticed there is less strikes than 
what they had during the wartime. Briggs didn't have too many strikes this 
last year or two. 

Q. Have you Investigated that situation at all as to how that came about? — 
A. Well, I never did Investigate. I asked quite a few people in the plant if they 
can tell me anything, really out of curiosity on my part, but got mei*ely opinions, 
hearsay. 

Q. What were some of the opinion expressed? — A. Along the same line that 
Mr. Herbert discussed with me originally, still along the same line of the labor 
question. 

Q. Well, were any names mentioned? — A. No. 

Q. Were any instances or incidents cited? — A. No. 

Q. Did anything come to your attention that would indicate that the Renda 
Company was performing any labor service for Briggs? — A. I haven't noticed any. 

Q. What is your own opinion as to why this happened? — A. I might add, I 
think the same, along those lines, this is so. I may add the only other thing that 
was told me, more or less an opinion, I was wondering why people like that will 
come to Briggs Manufacturing and sell them the idea, if this is so, and I was 



340 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEIRCE 

told the idea was sold to them by the Michigan Stove Company, who his father- 
in-law handled, quite a few years, and they didn't have any labor trouble there. 

Mr. Garuer. That's where Perroni works. 

The Witness. Where Perroni worked or serviced. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. Could you tell us who told you that?— A. I couldn't. I really don't re- 
member. 

Q. Now, was it Herbert?— A. It could have been. He might have. It could 
have been almost anybody I talked to. 

Q. Well, give that some thought now. That's of some importance who gave you 
that bit of information. What is your best recollection?— A. It's hard to recol- 
lect. Well, I can only tell you with whom I discussed it. 

Q. Let's do it that way.— A. I discussed it with Herbert who was the salvage 
manager at Briggs. I discussed it with Nate Silverstine, who is doing business 
with Briggs up to this day. He is more or less in the machinery line. And then, 
of course, I discussed it with the salvage manager who is the head now. 

Mr. Garber. What's his name? 

The Witness. His name is Clifford Reichman, and that's about the three main 
ones. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. What?— A. That's about the three main people I discussed it with. I dis- 
cussed it with a dozen people in the plant who asked me a question and, in turn, 
I would say, "What do you think?" but as far as anybody saying that was all 
definite information, because it was more or less hearsay and opinions. 

Q. Now, did you ever do any business with Michigan Stove? — A. No. 

Q. Do you know any of the management there?— A. Well, I shouldn't say, no. 
We might have done it under my dad's name. I think we did business quite a 
few years ago, just on one deal, like a bid or something. 

Q.' With whom did you deal? — A. I don't know. It wasn't in my time. 

Q. Do you know any of the management there? — A. No, I don't know anybody 
over there. 

Q. Do you know whether there's any truth in these rumors that you heard? — 
A. No, I don't. 

Q. That Perroni and others had done a job for the stove works? — A. No, I don't. 
I couldn't say there's any truth in it. 

Mr. Moll. Well, let me say this to you off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

The Witness. Well, I can only tell you that I discussed the reasons why this 
happened with so many different people like I mentioned, I would say a dozen 
dift'erent people I naturally came to the conclusion quite a while back it must be 
so, because I couldn't see any other reason why Carl Kenda C<nnpany, who, by 
the way, personally, I think is a swell chap, he's a college man, a graduate of 
Albion College — he is the only one I do business with — I told it to my dad, if I 
was doing business with a company, if they were gangsters, anything else, I don't 
care how much money I could have made on the deal, I feel that way, I wouldn't 
have done business with the company, but I still do business with Carl Renda 
Company. Carl Renda is a gentleman, a very nice fellow to do business with ; I 
never argued with the man ; we never run into any difficulties, because it is a 
pleasure really to handle the accovint under his name, not that I wouldn't like to 
handle it back direct with Briggs, because to me it's a certain reputation at stake. 
I like to do business direct, not indirect. But coming back to my opinion, I don't 
know of any other opinion than tlie consensus of people I talked to, and they all 
seem to lead along the same lines. It is a labor question. Carl Renda must 
perform something for Briggs Manufacturing whereby Briggs is going to give him 
all this scrap material. What this performance is, what it is, I don't know. I 
never asked him. I never asked Carl Renda. I thought it was none of my busi- 
ness to ask him. He only told me that he is in there to stay, and as I understand it, 
the contract — this I was told by Charles Martin — tliat the contract he's got with 
Briggs, and I understand he has a contract with Briggs 

The Court. Who has? 

The Witness. Carl Renda Company — has a clause in it — in fact, I was shown 
the contract ; I wasn't shown the w?hole contract, but I was shown the contract 
just a small pnvt of it, where it says Briggs Manufacturing Company is giving 
or selling Carl Renda Company the following articles, nonferrous metal, ferrous, 
iron, steel, waste paper, clips, so no, and so forth, six or seven different items, 
which is the general form of scrap. In other words, that showed to me they 
did have a contract and were tied up with the Briggs Manufacturing. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEKCE 341 

Mr. Garbeb. Do you know how long the contract is for? 

The AViTNESS. It has no limitation, but can be cancelled on thirty clays' notice. 
This I am told, I think, by Charles Martin. 

Mr. Garbek. But it is not a definite contract? 

The Witness. It is not a definite contract, no definite time stated. 

Mr. Garher. Do you know why Mr. Herbert was discliai-ged or lost his job? 

The Witness. Well, I cau also only give an opinion about it. 

Mr. Garp.er. All right, -n-iliat's your opinion? 

The Witness. It was also quite a shock to me, because that man had been 
on the job, I believe, 22 years, been with Briggs Manufacturing, and he was 
let go this year on January 7th, I believe, a year ago. 

Mr. Garber. This year? 

The Witness. This year, and ever since then I askel anybody that I knew why 
Mr. Herbert was dischai-ged, and I heard all different kinds of opinions until 
Mr. Herbert showed me — he went to California. Mr. Herbert's bought some 
piece of property, is building some kind of a trailer camp. Well, he came back 
here around May or June to Detroit, and he showed me a letter he never 
showed me before, showed me the letrer he dictated to tlie FBI. The FBI has 
some sort of investigation at Briggs, and, as I understand, the FBI wanted to 
know since it was government material, they wanted to know why it should be sold 
without competitive bids. Mr. Herbert gave them a full statement, and kind 
of put Mr. Cleary — I read the evidence — and sort of put Mr. Cleary on the spot, 
more or *ess throwing all the blame on Mr. Cleary, and Mr. Herbert did put up 
some sort of fight against the Carl Renda Company for the first six months 
anyway. I told him personally, as a frieiul, "Mr. Herbert, you are foolish to 
fight something, if the management wants to do something beyond you, you are 
foolish to fight it." So he did. The only opinion, he was fired from Briggs Manu- 
facturing, because he gave that kind of evidence. 

Mr. Garber. Did you ever tell Mr. Herbert if he didn't stop bucking Renda 
Company, he would get fired or bumped off, words to that effect? 

The Witness. No ; I did warn him, however. 

Mr. Garber. What did you warn him? 

The Witness. Just gave him my opinion. 

Mr. Garbek, What opinion did you give him? 

The Witness. I gave him the opinion, he's only working for Briggs Manu- 
facturing, and his job wasn't too big of a job, and I don't know how much in- 
fluence he has except his own supervisor over him, and I told him he was foolish 
to buck a thing like this, where Mr. Cleary and I understand, Mr. Cleary right 
up to the president of the company, were in accord with a thing like this. I told 
him I thought it was foolish to buck it. 

Mr. Garber. Did you ever tell him he might get bumped off or killed? 

The Witness. No. 

The Court. You had no ulterior motive except your friendship with Herbert? 

The Witness. The only motive, I did business with the man ten or twelve 
years, Judge. 

The Court. According to your business relations with Herbert over a period 
of years, would you be inclined to believe anything he said? 

The Witness. More or less ; yes. 

The Court. His word is good? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. Not a crackpot? 

The Witness. No. 

By Mr. Moll: 

Q. Y'^ou think he was on the square? — ^A. I think he was very much on the 
square. 

Q. You had no evidence of dishonest dealings with him when you were dealing 
with him or through him? — ^A. No. 

Q. Did you feel that thisIlenda-Perroni combination was a dangerous thing? — 
A. Yes, I did. ^ 

Q. Why did you feel that way? — A. Well, because I don't believe in — if the 
opinion that I have and that other people had, the reason for these boys to go 
into Briggs and perform something against labor, instead of having a pay-off like 
the old days, where the gangster would come into a store and say he would give 
him some certain kind of protection — the company will eventually have to pay up. 
In this way, they are doing business, I don't like it at all. I still don't like it up 
to this minute. 

The Court. What is the objectionable thing to you? 



342 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMENCE 

The Witness. Tlie objectionable thing to me, if the reasons are so, why 
Mr. Renda is in there performing something against labor. 

The Court. What is he doing? 

The Witness. I don't know. I don't know, but the evidence is there, only that 
Briggs had less strikes the last year and a half than they ever had. 

Mr. Garber. Did you ever hear of any beatings at the Briggs? 

The Witness. No, except what I read in the paper. 

By Mr. Moll: 

Q. You heard of them. You heard of a series of beatings? — A. Yes what I 
read in the paper. 

Q. Did you come to any conclusions about that? — A. No; I was wondering 
about it, but somehow this Carl Renda is a very nice fellow, to my estimation. 
I couldn't connect him with any underground movements of that nature. 

The Court. In other words, what happened to you with your contract, and 
what you heard, contrasting that information, those opinions against the per- 
sonality of Carl Renda, you can't reconcile it. 

The Witness. No ; I can't. 

The Court. In other words, it doesn't seem to you those rumors are well 
founded? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. But you know they are there? 

The Witness. I just feel they are there ; yes. » 

The Court. And you know there's less strikes since he arrived on the scene? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Garber. Do you know anything about Perroni? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Garber. Do you know what their reputation is? 

The Witness. Just what I heard. 

Mr. Gabber. What? 

The Witness. Well, I heard Perroni — I tried to investigate the company my- 
self, Carl Renda, when he got in the picture, and when I realized Perroni was 
there, I asked a few friends of mine who Perroni was. They said this Perroni 
did have a jail record. 

The Court. That's Sara Perroni, the father-in-law to Renda? 

The Witness. Sam Perroni. In other words, Renda married his daughter. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. Well, there must be some talk in the trade about this Carl Renda Company ; 
isn't there? — A. Well, there was talk at first. 

Q. What was that talk? — A. Along the same lines that they would take away 
an account with strong-arm methods. Of course, there wasn't any strong-arm 
methods in the Briggs case. 

Q. Well, they muscled in?— A. That's right. 

Q. For some reason. — A. For some reason ; that's exactly right. 

Q. What other plants are they hooked up with, outside Briggs and the Stove 
Company? — A. I don't know. 

Q. Pardon me. Is that the Michigan Stove or Detroit Stove? — ^A. Michigan 
Stove Company. 

The Court. Where are they located? 

The Witness. Right here on Jefferson Avenue near Belle Isle Bridge. 

By Mr. Moll: 

Q. That's Fry's Company. — A. Fry's Company. As I understand — this is only 
rumor, I don't know exactly, but John Fry sold the deal to Briggs Manufac- 
turing. 

Mr. Garber. That is, Mr. Fry told about his service? 

The Witness. That's it, because I couldn't figure out where people like 
Perroni — you don't have to talk too much, say what kind of man he is — could 
sell a thing like this to a corporation like Briggs, but where Mr. John Fry 
would sell the idea, I can see where it would take. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. Did it ever come to your attention — strike that. What information have 
you that Fry may have approached Briggs on behalf of Perroni and Renda? — - 
A. No definite information. 

Q. What is the source of your information? — A. Well, as I said before, I 
don't know if Mr. Herbert told me that or Mr. Silverstine told me that, or 
anybody else I talk to. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEKCE 343 

Q. It may have been Silverstine? — A. But to my mind, it filled a gap. When 
you make up your mind it must be so, the next thing is, who could sell an 
idea like that to Briggs, and when I was told John Fry — I don't know John 
Fry — I felt he was a man big enough to sell the thing to Briggs. 

Q. Do you think the thing was sold direct to Robinson? — A. Dean Robinson? 

Q. Do you know him personally?— A. I met him once, yes. 

Q. What is your reaction to him? — A. I don't know the man well. He seems 
■to be a nice fellow. 

Q. Well, he seems to be, but let's take our hair down. What do you think 
about Robinson? Do you think he would go for a deal of this kind? — A. I 
think he might ; yes. 

Q. What makes you think that? — A. Well, first of all, Dean Robinson is 
K2onnected with Briggs as a son-in-law to Walter. Dean handled the labor 
question at Briggs. It was his job, as I understand it, to deal with all the 
negotiations with labor, and when he became president of the Briggs Manu- 
facturing. I could see that a man of his type, being labor, was a big thing, 
anyway, that he would go for something like that. That's just my personal 
reaction. 

Q. Well, do you think they have got this situation in their hair? — A. I think 
they got the bull by the horns and can't let go. 

Q. You mean, the bear by the tail? — A. The bear by the tail. 

Q. Got their tail in the gate? What makes you think that?-— A. I don't know, 
because it seems to work. The whole tie-up seems to work. 

Q. Well, what indication have you that it works? — A. Well, the only indi- 
cation I have is that Briggs has less strikes. See, it's evident Briggs haven't 
had any trouble at all in the last year or so that wasn't settled in one day. 

The Court. You don't know how that got settled, do you? 
, The Witness. No. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. Did you ever hear any rumors? — ^A. No. 

Q. Of what their effective method is? — A. Well, I can go as far as saying, 
yes, I was curious to know how you can control labor, how you can control twenty 
or thirty thousand people. 

Q. How? — A. But people ventured their opinion to me, he didn't have to con- 
trol twenty or thirty thousand. All he had to control is the different stewards 
at the plant, who are mostly Italian, I understand, and Carl Renda and Per- 
roni are Italian, and if he can control the stewards in the different plants, 
he has the job licked. 

Q. What is your idea on whether this control is effected, through, say, a pay- 
off or violence? — ^A. Well, as I said before 

Q. How do they make the stewards or the agitators out there stand still, 
through a little financial payoff? — A. It might be. That's the easiest way. 

Q. Or threats of violence? — A. See, as I said before, I couldn't connect Carl 
Renda personally with any violence or anything along the gangster form of 
man. What's in back of him, I dont know. My idea, it could be either one, 
it could be violence or a payoff. A fellow may work on a job, and just pay off 
to keep his men quiet, he will see to it. 

Q. What theory do you incline to? — A. Well, the easiest theory would be a 
payoff 

Q. Well, that's a little more dignified than beating hell out of them? — A. 
That's right, but the only thing, my reaction to his father-in-law if I was doing 
business with his father-in-law, which I don't think I would, I wouldn't put it 
far past him. 

Mr. Garbee. Far past him to what? 

The Witness. To venture an opinion about beatings or anything else, but it is 
just an opinion. I say it is a personal opinion. 

Mr. Garber. Well, Renda is a good front man, a nice little fellow. 

The Witness. A college man, used to play football up at Albion. 

Mr. Garber. He graduated when? 

The Witness. He's only 29 or 30. He graduated the last few years. 

The Court. Where did Renda come from ? 

The Witness. As far as I know, from Detroit. 

Mr. Garber. Did you ever hear of him by the name of Rendazza? 

The Witness. No ; I never heard of it. 
By Mr. Moll : 

Q. Did you ever suspect that the Renda Company was getting this contract for 
tiothing? — A. No ; I never suspected. 



344 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Q. Was that ever mentioned or brought to your attention? — A. No. 

Q. You think they are actually paying for the scrap contracts? — A. Well, we 
know he is paying for his scrap contract, that is, I actually hadn't seen any pay- 
ments, but see, when our trucks go to Briggs Manufacturing to pick up metal, 
our drivers pick up a packing slip made out to Carl Renda ; our driver signs it. 
When our driver brings it to our office, we, in turn, make a memorandum of 
the packing slip so we give him credit and we send his packing slip back to Carl 
llenda Company so Briggs has a record of every pound of scrap going out of the 
plant. 

The Court. In other words Carl Renda Company is getting the metal out 
through your trucks? 

The Witness That's right. 

The Court. And you are paying Carl Renda Company? 

The Witness. Yes ; we are paying Carl Renda Company. 

The Court. Now, as Judge Moll says, you don't know if Carl Renda Company 
is paying Briggs- or is getting it for some other reason? 

The Witness: I don't know. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. Let's assume that Renda got the scrap contract from Briggs on some kind 
of a competitive basis.- — A. Yes. 

Q. Such as you formerly got it. Then there isn't enough differential between 
what he, Renda, pays Briggs, and you pay Renda to make any great sizable profit 
for Renda, is there? — A. Yes, there is. 

Q. How would that work out? — A. Why, especially — not so much in nonferrous^ 
the amount isn't too much, but especially in steel, in ferrous metal. 

Q. Yes. — A. For instance, the only thing I heard, be is getting $2 a ton over 
what he pays to Briggs for steel. 

Q. Yes. — ^A. Now, he hasn't any investment, somebody else services the Briggs 
account like I do on nonferrous. 

Mr. Garber. Who services it? 

The Witness. The company used to be before him. 

Mr. Career. Who was that? 

The Witness. Woodmere Scrap Iron over on Fort Street. 

The Court. He gets a take on ferrous of $2 a ton? 

The Witness. A couple of dollars a ton on ferrous. 

The Court. Keeps a set of books? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Doesn't handle the material at all. 

The Witness. Doesn't handle the material at all. Now, ferrous, if he handles 
every month approximately 1,500 pounds a month, that is $3,000 a month. Now, 
in my own business, as I said before, my business wouldn't amount to more than 
about — I don't know what he pays, but I am just guessing — he couldn't make 
more on nonferrous than, oh, three or four hundred a month. But it is still ai 
good business. 

The Court. Of course, when you bid on a salvage job, you have got to include 
your cost in collecting it, picking it up, trucking it, and your handling charge? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Now, if he bids without that, he can save what you would spend 
in the collection and hauling? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. And that would run into a substantial amount of money? 

The Witness. Yes, it would. 

The Court. Say, on a $25,000 a month purchase, you buy $25,000 of scrap from 
all the Briggs plants in a given month, what would your handling cost be, your 
collection and trucking and handling and storage account, what would it cost 
you? 

The Witness. On $25,000 I would say about $2,500— $2,500 or $3,000. 

The Court. So when you bid for, say, a month's output of scrap in the amount 
of $25,000 you are confronted with collection and handling charges of, say, $3,000 
to begin with? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. In order for you to make a profit, you have to sell it for some 
figure over $28,000? 

The Witness. Over the original cost, overhead cost, labor cost. 



ORGAJSriZED CRIME IN nSTTERSTATE COMMEKCE 345 

By Mr. Morx : 

Q. Now, if Renda bid, then $25,000 a month, and he was able to sell it to you 
or turn over the contract to you without any profit and merely broker that account 
he would be making a handing cliarge of $3,000, wouldn't he? — -A. That's correct. 
I think he's got a sweet contract, personally. 

Q. So on a $25,000 a month basis, even if he didn't make a dime on the sale 
of the scrap to you, he'd profit by A. By the services. 

Q. By the extent of the service charges? — A. That's right. 

Q. Is that the way you figure it? — A. That's correct. 

Q. That's why the price differential doesn't make a lot of difference, his price 
to Briggs as it goes to your price to him. — A. That's right. 

Q. He hasn't any cost. — A. By the same token, though, if I am bidding $25,000 
to Briggs, and he will bid $25,000 to Briggs, and he gets the preference, they like 
him better than me, b.V the same taken if I am going to do business with Carl 
Renda, getting business off him, I can't go very much over $25,000, if I have to 
put my trucks on. 

Q. So if you pay Carl Renda $25,000 for his $25,000 contract and you do the 
collecting A. That's right. 

Q. Can he make any money on it? — A. No. 

The Court. In other words, if you pay $25,000 to make any money he has to 
get it for less than $25,000. 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. All he has to do for that is obtain the contract and keep a set 
of books? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Pay income tax? 

The Witness. That's right. See, we buy from Carl Renda on the same basis 
as we bought from Briggs, so much a pound. 

The Court. You are doing business the same as you ever did, except instead 
of between you and Briggs, it's Carl Renda. 

The Witness. That's right, a third party. 

The Court. He's right in there? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Muscled right in? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. And apparently not in there for his health? 

The Witness. Apparently not. 

Mr. Garber. And they are not an old-established scrap-iron company that took 
this contract away from you? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Garber. You never heard of him? 

The Witness. Nobody has heard of him. 

Mr. Garbeib. He didn't even have an office, no trucks? 

The Witness. Nothing. 

Mr. Garber. Yet they were able to step in and take it away from someone who 
had the business 21 years? 

The Witness. 21 years. 

The Court. Can you give us any further information at this point? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moll. Now, what we want is the low down on the low down. 

The Court. If anybody saw you come in here, that's that, but you don't talk, 
you don't tell anybody what you said, the extent of the inquiry, or what it is, 
because it is strictly confidential. 

By Mr. Moll: 

Q. Now, Mr. Temchin, were you ever called in on a meeting between your- 
selves, Woodmere, Silverstine, and Briggs? — A. No. 

Q. Or any such meeting of the salvage people? — A. No. 

Q. Did you ever hear that any such meeting had taken place? — A. No, I 
never did. 

Q. Did you ever know of a meeting between Woodmere and Silverstine? — 
A. No. 

Q. And Briggs? — A. No. 

Q. Or between Renda and Silverstine and Woodmere? — A. Renda and Wood- 
mere, I have heard, but not Renda and Silverstine. 



346 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEKCE 

Q. What have you heard about the Renda-Woodmere meeting?— A. To discuss 
more or less the servicing of the account in the same that I was contacted. 

Q. But you weren't in on that meeting?— A. No. The only time I talked to 
Woodmere — you see, Woodmere began servicing the steel account. Woodmere 
never lost any business. I was ofC approximately a month. Woodmere began 
handling the account immediately when Carl Renda stepped into the picture, 
so when I was finally contacted and went to ask Cleary what, in his opinion, I 
could do, and he told me if the thing I was going to do was make any money, 
he still would not think the less of me — he told me frankly, "I would rather 
have your company in than anybody else, because you know our plant, our 
set-up." So when I came back to the office, I wanted to find out more about 
these people. I called up Woodmere and had a meeting with him. He came 
over to my office. I wanted to know the set-up, but he gets along with the boys, 
■Carl Renda Company. He was full of praise. He told me it's for my own 
good, and there will be less competition. He was well satisfied. 

The Court. He never did get out of the picture? 

The Witness. He never did get out of the picture. See, we lost it to United 
Metals Company three weeks to a month, but he never did get out of the picture. 

The CouKT. He lost the contract with the company the same as you did? 

The Witness. He lost the contract with the company the same as we did. 

The Court. But he moved in immediately, he continued to haul the stuff. 

The Witness. He continued to haul with his own trucks ; yes. 

By Mr. Moix : 
Q. In other words, all the former salvage collectors have moved over, and 
between them and Briggs Manufacturing we have got Renda. — A. That is correct. 
Q. In all the salvage picture. — A. That's right. 
The Court. That goes for waste paper, too? 
The Witness. That goes for waste paper, too. 

By Mr. Moix: 

Q. Now, in connection with these negotiations, were you ever threatened in 
any way by Renda, Martin, or Perronne? — A. No. 

Q. Were you told what would happen if anything was said or done about the 
situation? — A. No. 

Q. What?— A. No. 

Q. Are you sure of that? — A. Positive. I was never threatened in any shape 
or manner. I feel free, the way I saw fit. 

Q. How did Perronne happen to be out in front when you were talking with 
Renda? — A. Oh, he was sitting in the car. There was another fellow sitting in 
the car that I had never met. I don't know who he was. I have never seen him 
since. 

Q. Was that when you were negotiating the deal? — A. When we were negotiat- 
ing the deal. We sat in my office an hour or so, my dad and myself, Charlie 
Martin, and Carl Renda. We done all the business, talked 

Q. With them? — A. With them. Then when we walked out, I noticed the other 
people in the car. He said, "Meet my father-in-law." 

Q. He didn't introduce you to the other man? — A. No. 

The Court. How long were they inside negotiating with you while the others 
sat in the car? 

The Witness. Oh, I would say about an hour. 

The Court. Did they sit there very quietly? 

The Witness. I don't remember. Coming back, I think Mr. Perrone came in 
the office after I met him. I think my dad called him in. 

The Court. Your dad knew him? 

The Witness. No, he never knew him, but when he saw this fellow sitting ini 
the car was a stranger 

The Court. Your dad knew Martin's father? 

Thf Witness. My dad knew Martin's father. 

The Court. What was Martin's father's business? 

The Witness. He had a grocery store. 

The Court. Where? 

The Witness. I don't know exactly where, but around Hastings Street in the- 
old days. He's been dead 15 years. 

The Court. Who gets the Michigan Stove scrap? 

The Witness. I understand Perrone. 

The Court. Who does he sell to? 

The Witness. Kramerand Orloff. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE: COMMEIRCE 347 

The Court. Where are they located? 

The Witness. They are on Buffalo, I don't know the number on Buffalo, near 
Holbrook. 

The Court. How do they ship it, by rail? 

The Witness. No, he picks it up in his own trucks. This fellow Perrone is in 
business for himself. 

The Court. In Detroit? 

The Witness. Yes, Detroit. 

The Court. He picks it up himself? 

The Witness. Yes, Perrone does. 

The Court. And brings it to this Buffalo plant? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Court. Does Perrone work for the stove company? 

The Witness. No, he works for himself. He has three or four dump trucks. 

The Court. Do you know if any others of the Perrone family are working 
for the Stove Works? 

The Witness. No, I don't know anybody else. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. Going back to Briggs for a minute, what was your impression of Cleary? — 
A. Well, truthfully speaking, Cleary seemed to hide something, because I was 
pretty friendly with Cleary, I didn't see him every day, but I would see him once 
in two weeks, three weeks, just to say hello, and when I come out to ask him 
how come we lost the business, he was very vague, said it was dollars and cents. 
He took a pencil and said, "Suppose you bid 10 cents for an item and we can get 
11 cents for the same item," he said, "You don't expect we could give you the 
business." 

The Court. The iron collar? 

The Witness. Yes, sir, he seemed to be vague. He says to me, "You didn't leave 
the Briggs account because of your service. You have been doing business with 
us for about twenty-odd years." And he said, "If I should throw you out from 
handling our account, the reflection would be on myself because it took 20 years 
to show we were doing business with the wrong company. There's no reflection. 
It's a situation." What he called it — "It's a situation that has come up," he 
says, "and it's only for three months." 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. Let me interrupt you at that point. Did you ask Cleary at this point for 
an opportunity to match bids?— tA. No. because the bids were closed. 

Q. That wouldn't have been fair? — A. No, I didn't ask him at all. 

Q. There was no discussion with him at all as to whether you could match 
the bid and continue on with the business? — A. No. 

Q. What was your opinion of Cleary up to that time? — A. I thought he was 
a very decent fellow, and still think so. 

Q. And you think he was a little embarrassed on this situation? — A. Because 
I pointed .direct questions at him. Why? Because I merely told him that in the 
past — see, in the past, I would know prices that my competitors would bid after 
the bids were opened, and if there were thirty items, thirty classifications on the 
bid, and, say, I was only high on 14 or 15 items, where the edge was, I wouHd 
always get the edge and even beyond the edge. I would still get the contract. 
It doesn't mean I was always high, and I know that. Of course, this was told to 
me by Mr. Herbert after the opening of the contract. So I told him we appre- 
ciated the business over the years. It did happen we didn't have Briggs for 
twenty years always. It happened some fellow very hungry for business would 
get it temporarily. We had one fellow, I think in 1927, who was an old-estab- 
lished business in the city, and he went in and bid about twice as much as it was 
worth. We let him have it for three months, and he only had it two weeks. 
After he had it two weeks he took a couple of hundred dollars licking and just 
quit. 

The Court. Do Harry and Sam Frank handle scrap? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; they do. I know Sam well. 

The Court. They were never in the Briggs? 

The Witness. No ; they used to bid. A long time ago they did on Briggs. Sam 
used to bid on Briggs, but he hadn't the last seven or eight years. 

By Mr. Moll : 
Q. Now, where does Silverstine fit in this picture?— A. Silverstine used to work 
for Briggs away back about 20 years ago. He was superintendent of all the 



348 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE, COMMEKCE 

plants, and, as I understand, he quit his position- at Briggs for one reason or 
another and went in business for himself. 

Q. What is his business?— A. His business is mostly machinery business, used 
machinery, but he kind of switches. He handles all kinds of salvage, but not 
scrap. In other words, he buys second-hand material to sell, so he's been at 
Briggs quite a number of years. 

Q. Has Renda Company anything to do with that type of second-hand machin- 
ery? — A. No. It's about the only item they don't handle. They wouldn't know 
what to do with it. 

Mr. Gabber. Do you know whether Silverstine lose out on some of his dealings 
with Briggs to Renda Company, too? 

The Witness. Very little. 

Mr. Garber. What's these hydraulic bales of metal they have over there? 

The Witness. Oh, that's the metal — it's steel, oh, steel from stampings, 
hydraulically baled, what they call a compressed bundle, and Nate Silverstine, 
who is a broker direct to the mill, has a broker's license for Great Lakes Steel, 
the metal used to go through Nate Silverstine, and he would get his brokerage 
fee from that. 

Mr. Gabber. 50 cents. 

The Witness. 50 cents if? right, and tliat is a good contract, too, in itself, 
because they have — when they are going full blast, they would have 8 or 10 
carloads a day of compressed bundles. 

Mr. Garber. Did he lose that to the Renda Company? 

The Witness. No ; he didn't lose it to the Renda Company. He lost it direct 
to the steel mills, because today, the question of steel being what it is, Briggs 
began negotiating with all the mills in the country to get as much steel as they 
can from the mills, and the mills asked them to ship the bundles to them direct. 
Not that Carl Renda didn't want it, he wanted that kind of business, but 
because when he got it. Briggs was already shipping steel direct, it was not 
available, so as it stands up to this very day, these hydraulically compressed 
bundles go direct to the mills. 

Mr. Gabber. That's where Renda Company doesn't get any part of it? 

The Witness. Renda Company doesn't get any part of it, as far as I know. 

Mr. Garbeb. Could they be brokering it, the same as Silverstein did? 

The Witness Well, they would have to get a broker's license first. 

Mr. Gaebeb. Do you know whether they have a license? 

The Witness. No ; they haven't. 

The CouET. But on those scrap bales Silverstine still gets the brokerage? 

The Witness. No. 

The Court. It goes direct? 

The Witness. It goes direct. 

The Court. So Silverstine is reduced to second-hand machinery? 

The Witness. Well, more or less so. 

The Court. I mean as far as Briggs are concerned? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Couet. He doesn't handle scrap? 

The Witness. No ; he don't handle scrap. The only scrap he gets is what he 
buys for used, and can't sell it, so he scraps it, so we service him, too. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. You know nothing of any meetings held between Renda and Perrone, any 
others in connection with the removal of scrap from Briggs? — A. No; I don't. 

Q. You didn't attend any? — A. No. 

Q. The only time you ever discussed with Renda, Martin, and Perrone together 
was this one occasion at your office? — A. The only time Perrone was there, and 
the other times I had meetings with the boys was at different times when the 
contract came up. I think we got three contracts in all for different periods. 

Q. But you were never in on any other conference with Perrone? — A. No. 

Q. He never threatened you in any way? — A. No ; not in any way at all. 

Q. Your business dealings with them have been satisfactory? — A. Yes. 

Q. But they are in between you and it looks as if they are there to stay? — 
A. It looks that way. 

Q. Now, outside the Briggs account and the Michigan Stove account, do you 
know of any other accounts they have?- — A. No; but — I dont know of any other 
accounts they have, but he has been buying material now that he is in the busi- 
ness, more or less, he's been bidding on material at different places, and he would 
call me up now and then, ask me a price or something that he's bidding on this 
plant outside Briggs. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMME'RCE 349 

Q. But there hasn't anything showed up? — A. As far as I know there hasn't 
heen anythinjj show up. He was successful once or twice. Naturally we do busi- 
ness with the man. I try to be as fair witli the man. He calls me for a price 
on a thing. I will play ball with him 100 ijercent so he was successful in getting 
a couple of items. 

The Court. Do you know if Renda Company tried to get business from other 
big motor companies the same as they are at the Briggs? 

The Witness. I couldn't tell you that, if he was negotiating with anybody 
else. I couldn't tell you. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. Did you have any advance notice that Renda was going to muscle into 
this situation? — A. No, no advance notice. 

Q. Anything in advance of March 1945? — A. No. 

Q. You had known Renda before? — A. Had I known Renda before? 

g. Had you?— A. No. 

Q. Only Martin? — A. Only Martin, yes. 

Q. You never had known Perrone? — A. No. 

Q. Has your father known Perrone? — A. No, he never did. 

The Court. Is your father still living? 

The Witness. Yes, he is. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. Was there any talk in the trade that this outfit was going to come in? — A. 
Oh, no. 

Q. Did they approach you in any way around bidding time, March of 1945? — 
A. No. 

Q. Were you told to lay off ?— A. No. 

Q. By Martin. Renda, Perrone or any of that crowd? — A. The first notice I 
had. Mr. Herbert called me one day and said he had some very bad news for me, 
we hadn't got the contract. I said, "Who got the contract?'' He said, "Carl Renda 
Company." I said, "I never heard of them." He said, "These were instructions." 
See, Mr. Cleary was the one to okey the contract. 

Q. But then you got busy yourself and did a little investigating'? — A. That's 
right. 

Q. And you didn't like what you found out? — A. Not very much, no. 

Q. And you told Herbert, in effect, as you have testified, that there was nothing 
he could do about it. — A. I told him that, not at that time, though. I must have 
told him that six months after Carl Renda stepped in the picture. 

Q. You had concluded they were in to stay and couldn't be moved out"? — A. 
I concluded only by the beginning of this year, 1946, where, as I told you, 
where they showed me a piece of that contract. See, up to 1940, they never 
had anything in writing from Briggs Manufacturing, so far as I know, but 
in 1946, January, they got their contract with Briggs, an indefinite period. 

The Court. Was that before Herbert was discharged they got their contract? 

The Witness. No, that was after Herbert was discharged. 

The Court. He was discharged on the 7th? 

The Witness. January 7th. 

The Court. And you saw the contract or heard about it when? 

The Witness. Well, around the end of the month. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. Well, I gather from what you have said, there are a few things you feel 
are better unsaid than said here. Now, you have told us pretty much of the 
story, but aren't there just a few things you are soft-pedaling a little bit?^ — A. 
No, I can't say I do. I like to be frank with you, Judge. 

Q. Well, I think you have gone along very well, but I would like to know just 
a little more about your investigation of the Renda Company and Perrone, and 
what you found (jut they were in there for":' — A. Well, I think I told you every- 
thing that I could, mostly opinions by other people. I kept asking anyone who 
knew anything about it, what his opinion was, and I got the reaction of different 
opinions, but it all boiled down to the same thing, which is labor, so I was frank 
with you in telling that this man Perrone, I wouldn't have done business with. 
It is just my first reaction when I met the man. Carl Renda, on the other hand, 
I f(»und out he is a very nice fellow. That's about all it is. Up to this very 
minute, I haven't any definite information that I can absolutely swear to it, 

6&958— 51 — pt. 9—23 



350 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

I know anything definite why he is in there, but it's logical in my mind, all these 
opinions boil down to the same thing. 

Q. You are pretty well sold on the fact John Fry sold this company this bill 
of goods? — A. Yes, I am. 

Q. Or helped pave the way for Renda Company. — A. Yes. 

Q. Have you any more positive information? — A. No positive information, ex- 
cept it's one of those things that was the missing link, as I said before, of who 
was the salesman to sell the idea to Briggs Manufacturing, because I knew Carl 
Renda, not experienced in business up to this day, a nice kid, but no experience, 
his father-in-law that I met couldn't even talk English good, and Charlie Martin, 
who more or less represented him as his attorney, I don't think that Charlie 
Martin can go ahead and sell Briggs, Walter Briggs, an idea of that nature. 

Q. It would have to be a very practical proposition to sell those hard-headed 
boys on, wouldn't it? — A. Yes. 

Q. Nobody could come in with a cock and bull story? — A. That's right. 

Q. They would have to have a pretty fair set of samples? — A. That's right. 

Q. You think their sample is what happened out at Michigan Stove? — A, 
That's right. 

Q. Plus their family membership list? — A. I understand he was in there since 
1937 at Michigan Stove, getting the scrap, and since 1937 Michigan Stove never 
had any labor trouble, any strikes. 

Q. Well, now, what is this Perrone-Renda hook-up? Who does it include? — A, 
How is that now? 

Q. Who does it include? Who is in their goon squad? — A. I couldn't tell you. 

Q. What are some of the names you think might be mixed up in it? — A. Out- 
side Carl Renda, Perrone, Charlie Martin, and this one other man I saw sitting 
in the car, which I never met, I don't know his name, I never knew any other. 

Q. That'sonly four of them against 40,000?— A. That's right. 

Q. What do you think their hook-up is? — A. It would still be only an opinion. 

Q. Judge Murphy could lick the four of them himself with one hand tied behind 
his back. — A. Well, Judge, it's only an opinion of mine. 

Q. That's what we want. — A. Naturally, I am inclined to agree with you, there 
must be a strong clique. 

Q. How far does the mob go, and who are some people it takes in? — A. There 
must be a mob, maybe managed by Perrone. I can't associate Carl Renda because 
he just got in the family, I think. 

Q. Let's assume Renda is the front man? — A. That's right. 

Q. And probably Martin and, let's say, Perrone is, oh, the directing head. 

The Court. You mean charge d'affaires? 

Mr. Moll. Yes. 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. Who would be some of the executioners on the job? — A. Well, they would 
have to have a pretty good gang to keep the boys in line. 

The Court. Have you got some names you heard in your wanderings? 

The Witness. No, I never heard any names, I never even inquired on that. 
I never inquired who might be the gang. 

The Court. Where does Martin live? 

The Witness. He lives on Gladstone in an apaztment. He just got married, 
by the way, a few months back. As I xinderstand he used to live with his 
mother. He got married a few months back, because I called him at his house 
on some business. He's over in an apartment, but his oflBce is in the Telephone 
Exchange Building. I believe it's 6300 Cass Avenue, right across from the 
General Motors. It's Cass and Baltimore, right on the corner. 

The Court. And they have this scrap yard? 

The Witness. They have this scrap yard on Bellevue. 

The Court. Near what cross street? 

The Witness. It would be about two blocks south of Vernor Highway. It's 
about 1135, I think . 

Mr. Garber. Do you know Fay Taylor over there at Briggs? 

The Witness. No, I just heard of him. 

Mr. Garber. What did you ever hear about him? What does he do? 

The Witness. You mean Taylor? You mean Taylor, who used to be presi- 
dent? 

Mr. Garber. No, Fay Taylor, he's in charge of personnel over at Briggs. 

The Witness. Oh, no, I haven't heard much about him. I know he's in there. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 351 

By Mr. Moll : 

Q. He's kind of a tough boy?— A. Taylor? 

Q. Yes. — A. I don't know him. 

Q. What is his reputation? — A. I don't know, 

Q. You never heard any names mentioned as being part of this Perrone out- 
fit? — A. No, I never heard it mentioned. I never asked. 

Mr. Garber. Would you recognize that one fellow that was in the car with 
Perrone at the time out there, by a picture, if you saw it? 

The Witness. I might — a heavy set fellow. 

Mr. Garber. Get those pictures. 

Mr. Moll. Well, I think I will leave you for a minute. 

Mr. Garber. I don't think there's very much more. We will have him look 
at those pictures. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

(Witness excused.) 

2:35 p. m. 

Samuel Levine being by the Court first duly sworn, was examined and testi 
fied as follows : 

Examination by Mr. Garber : 

Q. What is your full name, please? — A. Samuel Levine, L-e-v-i-n-e. 

Q. Where do you live, Mr. Levine? — A. I live at 18429 San Juan. 

The Court. Mr. Levine, the man examining you is Assistant Prosecutor Mr. 
Garber, the man next to him is Mr. Watson, special assistant attorney general, 
and next to him, Judge Moll, special assistant attorney general. 

The Witness. I live both at Detroit and Kalamazoo. I spend part of my 
time at the Kalamazoo plant and part of it here, see. 

The Court. What is your business? 

The Witness. In Detroit, we are In the waste paper business, and I have — 
out of Kalamazoo, I purchased the old Roamer Motor Car plant there, and we 
have an industrial operation there, where we have a grader plant and also 
intrastate truck operation for paper and paper products for all parts of the State 
of Michigan. 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. Your company is composed of who? — A. Real estate owned by Real Land 
Company, consisting of two brothers, a sister, and myself ; the trucking com- 
pany, a corporation consisting of the same parties, and the waste paper business 
also the same parties. 

The Court. The waste paper company is also a corporation? 

The Witness. That's right. 

The Court. Known as 

The Witness. Levine Waste Paper Company. 

The Court. You don't manufacture? 

The Witness. No, we don't manufacture paper. From Kalamazoo our oi)era- 
tion is nation-wide. We handle a tremendous tonnage from the west coast. 

The Court. How long have you been in the paper business? 

The Witness. Oh, for 55 years. My grandfather did business with some of 
the mill men in the Connecticut Valley. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Moll. Did you get the name of Mr. Levine's truck company? 

The Witness. Paper Mills Trucking Company. 

The Court. A Michigan corporation? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. And the manufacturing company? — A. It isn't manufacturing, it's a grading 
and packing plant, processing. By that, I mean we purchase material and a 
great deal of it is graded to specific classifications to be used, to be consumed, by 
the mills in the place of pulp as a necessary raw material that we must have. 

Q. What is the name of it? — A. The raw materials? 

Q. Tlie grading concern. — A. Levine Waste Paper Company. 

Q. Still the Levine Waste Paper Company? — A. Yes. 

The Court. Is the trucking company operated under the same name. 



352 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. No ; a separate company. 

The Court. And a special place of business in Detroit or Kalamaz(»o? 

The Witness. The trucking company office is at Kalamazoo. Tliafs under my 
management there. 

The Court. You are a resident of Kalamazoo? 

The Witness. I am a resident of Kalamazoo as well as Detroit. I recently 
moved to Detroit. 

The Court. Where? 

The Witness. Moved to Detroit last December, after living in Kalamazoo for 
6 years. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. NovF, from vFhom do you acquire this waste paper? — A. From all forces. 
We purchase from dealers, brokers, industrial plants, from all sources. 

Q. Do you purchase from the Briggs Manufacturing Company? — A. We used 
to at one time. That's a while back. 

Q. When did you cease purchasing from the Briggs Manufacturing Company? — 
A. Well, if I am not mistaken, we ceased just about a year ago, a little over a 
year ago. 

Q. That would be approximately April 1, 1945? — A. It may be approximately. 
You see, this Briggs ^Manufacturing Company was a Detroit account, and tlie 
records in the Detroit office would show when we discontinued doing business. 

Q. Do you know why you discontinued doing business with the Briggs? — A. 
Well, as a matter of fact, when I would come into Detroit periodically I would 
■question about the various accounts, and the source of the accumulation, because 
we have a commitment to the mills, and we have very much interest in the 
Detroit market. I was told by Miss Levine, my sister, who lias charge of the 
Detroit office, about the discontinuance of the Briggs Manufacturing giving me 
their business. 

Q. Wliy was tb^.t? — A. I went tliere and saw the director of purchases at that 
time. I just done quite recollect his name. 

Q. M.r, Cleary? — A. Yes, Mr. Cleary. I believe he is dead now. If I am not 
mistaken, lie died just recently, and Mr. Cleary told me that it was taken out of 
liis hands ; it was handled through some individual, some arrangement ; and my 
sole purpose, prime purpose of going there, checking up, was to make sure there 
wasn't anything; that the relationship between the Briggs Manufacturing and 
'our company was 

The Court. Pleasant? 

The Witness. Pleasant, and if they decided to make some otlier arrangement, 
that was perfectly all right with me. 

By Mr. Garbee: 

Q. What was that conversation you had with Mr. Cleary, as best you can 
remember? — A. Well, it's a while back. See, I was referred to Mr. Cleary by 
a Mr. George Herbert, who had charge of the salvage for some time there. 

Q. How long have you known Mr. Herbert? — A. A good many years. There's 
a gentleman who was Mr. Herbert's boss a good many years ago — let's see, I am 
trying to think back, his name, the man who had charge of the salvage prior to 
Herbert. He is also dead now. 

Mr. Moll. Well, that is really not important. 

The Witness. Then George Herbert handled it. 

By Mr. Gabber : 

Q. How long have you had this contract with Briggs Manufacturing to pick 
up their paper? — A. On and off, I think we had it for some time. 

Q. How long is that? — A. A period of many years, say, 12 or 15 years, maybe 
longer. 

Mr. Moll. On a competitive, closed-bid basis? 

The Witness. On a competitive, closed-bid basis. There were times when we 
couldn't meet the conditions, would lose out on it; and times, when our price was 
not right, we would miss it. 

Mr. Moll. You were bidding quarterly? 

The Witness. No; the bids was usually monthly. Of course, since the time 
when the OPA Regulations were in effect, there was fluctuations in prices. We 
were told what we could and what we could not get in stock. It was just a ques- 
tion whether the company wanted to give us a preference some months over 
others. I believe there was a period there, due to some reciprocal ari'angement, 
wiiere paperboard was very, very scarce, and they were going to make some 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 353 

shipments to us. It was perfectly all right with us until they could get some 
customers or something. 
By Mr. Garrer: 

Q. Did you bid each month for that? — A. We did. 

Q. Subsequent to the termination of your contract, did you ever make bids 
for their paper? — A. No ; I don't believe we did. 

Q. Have they advertised for bids? — A. No; we haven't had an opportunity 
to quote. 

Q. Do you know why? — A. I haven't even gone into that. As a matter of fact, 
my time has been limited in Detroit, and I have taken the time to follow it 
through, because our relations with the company itself were satisfactory; and 
I felt, if anything should come up at any time where they wanted to make a 
change, we would get another opportunity of quoting on their business. 

Q. But you haven't had an opportunity to quote since. — A. No. 

Q. Do you know what company took over tlieir business? — A. I was told some 
individual had taken over the handling of the salvage of the company ; but, as 
to meeting the individual in person, going into detail, I haven't done that. 

Q. Did you ever meet the individual before that? — A. Not prior to that. 

Q. Not prior to that? — A. Not prior to that. 

Q. It was a new name in the waste-paper business? — A. That's right. It was 
new to me anyway. 

Q. Let's go back to your conversation between Mr. Cleary and yourself. Give 
us your best recollection of what was said. — A. Well, I introduced myself to 
Mr. Cleary, and I did know Mr. Cleary for some years back. Being away from 
the city for some time, I didn't have an opportunity of contacting the trade as 
I used to years ago, and I told Mr. Cleary the facts, and where we were doing 
business, and you see, where there's a sudden termination of business for no 
price reason, no reason for lack of service, I wanted to know just why, and Mr. 
Cleary told me at that time it was just one of those things ; that it was taken 
out of his hands. 

Q. Did he say i)y whom? — A. No; he didn't tell me by whom, and he said that, 
as far as the Briggs Manufacturing Company and our concern is concerned, they 
were satisfied with the service and the manner in which we handled the account.. 

Q. Did he indicate any reason why it had been taken out of his hands? — A. No ; 
he didn't. 

Q. Did you suspect any reason? — A. I may probably suspect, but I felt, as our 
relationship was pleasant, something would come up where it would come back 
to us ; as long as the door is left open, and our conduct is such where we can 
merit considei'ation from the company, it may happen — I have seen it from time- 
to time where a certain personnel manager gets in, piirchasing agents may favor 
somebody else, but as long as we merit consideration fi'om that company for 
whom the man is working for, sooner or later we will be bound to get back in, 
because things will change. 

Q. Do you know who received the contract? — A. This is hearsay, I heard 
Monroe Waste Paper Company received the contract. 

Q. Did you ever hear of Carl Renda? — A. That was the name of the individual, 
Ren da. 

Q. That contract was turned over to Monroe Waste Paper? — A. Yes. 

Q. Renda received the contract and A. Monroe received the waste paper. 

What arrangement they had, I am not familiar with it. 

Mr. Moll. Who is in Monroe Waste Paper? 

The Witness. From what I understand, Monroe Waste Paper formerly used 
to be Isaac Greer, a fellow named Sweet and Jack Lieberman, and some months 
ago I understand Lieberman purchased the interest from Sweet and Greer, and 
he is the sole owner at the present time. 

Mr. Moll. What's Groesbeck's company in Monroe? 

The Witness. That's Monroe Paper Products Company. That's thie one 
Charlie Raney is managing there. 

Mr. Moll. It has no connection with Monroe Waste Paper? 

Tbe Witness. No; this has no -connection whatsoever. The Monroe Paper 
Products is a board mill, binder board mill, of course; they make some fiber, 
similar to corrugated. Monroe Waste Paper are a waste-paper company ex- 
clusively, I understand. 

Mr. Moll. Do you know who actually got the contract for the waste-paper 
salvage from Bi-iggs? 

The Witness. Trathfully I haven't followed it through. 

The Court. What is your best information? 



354 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEKCE 

The Witness. Well, I had a man in my employ by the name of Jack Rubin, 
who was soliciting and handling that account for many years, and the iiast few 
months he was taken ill and is now residing at Phoenix, Ariz. He was the con- 
tact man at Briggs. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. What did he tell you about it? — A. That's the information I got. All 
salvage was being handled by Briggs Manufacturing through this 

Q. Renda? — A. Renda, and anyone who wants to purchase any will have to 
purchase it through this individual instead of through the company. 

Mr. Moll. Did he tell you who Reuda's associates were? 

The Witness. No ; I had no other information. It's one of those things ; you 
drop an account here and pick up another there. Outside going beyond a certain 
line, we are attempting to get business. 

The CoxmT. What was your monthly business on that? 

The Witness. Offhand, I don't think the volume was too great. Truthfully, 
I am not too familiar with the volume of that account. That was handled through 
the Detroit office. 

The Court. Approximately, what was your business? 

The Witness. Oh, I presume it may average around 50 to 100 tons a month. 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. And what would be the monetary consideration ?— A. What would be the 
monetary consideration? Craft papers — the price on craft, the ceiling price was 
$50 per ton. The price on mixed weights is $19 per ton, and the ceiling price on 
corrugated is $15 per ton : that is, f. o. b. point of shipment ; that is, f. o. b. their 
plant. I don't know the proportion of craft, corrugated, and factory waste 
they had. 

Q. Could you give us the amount of money you paid Briggs for their 
account? — A. It's .iust a guess. I could give it exactly off the record. I would 
prefer to do that. 

Q. Who has the record? — A. The Detroit office has the record. They can just 
check the Briggs account and check the tonnage. 

Q. Are they in town? I understand the officer attempted to subpoena some 
others and was only able to get hold of you. Are the rest in Florida or some 
place? — A. No: they're all here. 

Mr. IMoLL. Let Mr. Levine give us the approximate figure. 

The Witness. I can give you the approximate on that. If you want that 
information, I can get it for you. 

By Mr. Garber: 

Q. All right. — A. Oh, it will be from fifteen hundred to two thousand a month 
worth of business. 

Q. Paper was more or less at a premium the first part and middle of 
1945? — A. That's right. Paper has been very, very critical. 

Q. You were anxious to continue your contract with Briggs if possible? — 
A. Yes, sir. Of course, the people we are supplying with material were really 
at a critical stage as far as raw material is concerned, and we would have liked 
very much to have continued. As a matter of fact, we purchased a tremendous 
tonnage from the south — Texas, Mexico, Louisiana, Oklahoma, California — mis- 
cellaneous cars and so on, because we couldn't set the tonnage around here. 

Q. Do you know why Mr. George Herbert left the employ of the Briggs?— 
A. No ; I don't. 

Q. Did you hear any rumors as to why that was?— A. No; I didn't. I really 
can't tell any reason because I had no discussion. 

Mr. Moll. Did you talk to Mr. Herbert? 

The Witness. I spoke to Herbert only once, the first time I seen him in some 
time, and that was when I went to see Mr. Cleary. 

Mr. Moll. What did Herbert have to say on that occasion? 

The Witness. At that time I went to see George Herbert, because he was the 
one that handled the material for some time. I like to go to the man in charge. 
He was the one we always gave our prices to. He would bring the prices to our 
office, give us an oke.v, give us a contract, but George Herbert told us it was 
taken out of his hands, and if I wanted any further information I would have 
to go upstairs and see Mr. Cleary. 
By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Mr. Cleary told you it was also taken out of his hands? — A. Well, yes; 
that's true. 



ORGAIsTIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEIRCE 355 

Mr. Moll. Didn't Herbert indicate to you what tlie situation was, wlio got 
the contract? 

The Witness. Yes ; he did. As a matter of fact, he mentioned the party's name, 
and he did intimate that it wasn't a question of price. It was a question, I under- 
stand, of something being talien out of his hands. All salvage or scrap was 
turned over to him. It wasn't only paper scrap ; it was other materials as well ; 
and, of course, as long as I wasn't singled out as being out of the picture, I didn't 
mind it, because I felt the others that were handling the accounts were just as 
much interested, and some day the situation would come to a head and those 
that had been servicing the account for some time would get the proper con- 
sideration. 

By Mr. Garbek : 

Q. Didn't you make any investigation as to why a new company could come 
in and take over all the salvage? — A. No; I did not. I really should have, but 
I didn't have the time to spend to make that investigation here in Detroit. 

Q. Did you ever meet Mr. Renda ? — A. No ; I wouldn't know the man to see 
him. 

Q. You knew Charles Mai'tin? — A. Yes. 

Q. Charles Martin's real name was Margolis? — A. As a matter of fact, I knew 
his dad many years ago, and originally, 25 years ago or so, his dad had a grocery 
store over on St. Antoine, and he was just a youngster at that time, and then his 
dad purchased a place of business over on Greeley Street, just off Holbrook, put 
up a building there, I would say 25 years ago. His dad had been dead for many 
years. 

Q. What is Charles Martin's business? — A. I understand Charles Martin has 
been handling some salvage, doing some brokerage. 

Q. Does he have a license as a broker? — A. I don't know. I have never seen 
his place of business and never did any business with him? 

Q. Is he a lawyer? — A. Pardon? 

Q. Is he a lawyer? — A. I don't know whether he is qualified to practice law 
or not. 

Q. Did he go to law school? — A. I couldn't tell you. I understand he was in 
the service for a while, and when he came out, went into the business again. 

Mr. Moll. Is he hooked up with Renda? 

The Witness. I couldn't tell you. 

Mr. Moll. Did you ever hear he was? 

The Witness. I lieard something, he was handling some of the business for 
Renda, a conversation sometime, but I really didn't pay any attention to it. 

Mr. Moll. Do you know any of Renda's other associates? 

The Witness. No, I don't. 

Mr. Moll. Do you know Renda personally? 

The Witness. No, I have never seen him. I don't know the man. Being 
away from Detroit six years, I probably would come to Detroit, until tiie time I 
moved here, maybe once every fuur or five months, or once every three months, 
and then just for a day or two. We developed quite a business there, have an 
extensive organization in Kalamazoo, and it really kept me busy there. 

Mr. Moll. Do I understand you get none of the Briggs salvage now? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moll. From any source? 

The Witness. No. We haven't handled anything since that time, since the 
time when he has taken over. 

Mr. Moll. Have you ever been approached by the Renda outfit to repurchase? 

The Witness. I haven't. 

Mr. Moll. Has your company? 

The Witness. That's something I can't tell you, and I will have to ask my 
associates and see whether they have or not. 

Mr. Moll. Will you do that? 

The Witness. I will be happy to. 

Mr. Moll. Find out if your company has been approached by Renda or Martin 
or any of their associates? 

The Witness. I will be very happy to check into this. 

Mr. Garber. Also the exact date of the termination of this contract. 

The Witness. I will make some notes. I am not as familiar with this local 
situation as I should be. Having been away from it for awhile, it may take me 
longer to find out. I will also give you the tonnage and volume in dollars and 
cents and the time of the termination of that business. I would be happy to give 



356 ORGANIZED CHIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEIRCE 

it to you right from tlie records, wliicli would correspond with the Briggs 
Manufacturing records. 

Mr. Moll. And in particular whether Martin. Renda, or any of their asso- 
ciates ever approaclied your company witli a proposal to purchase Briggs salvage, 
or that from any other concern through the Renda Company. 

The Witness. I would be happy to get that information for you and see that 
you get it. 

Mr. Moll. Now, off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Moll. Is there anything further, Ralph? 

Mr. Garber. No, I think that will be all, if he furnishes us with this informa- 
tion. 

The Witness. I really am very sorry I am not as familiar with the local 
situation as I should be, and considering my position in the business, probably I 
should know what everybody is doing and about every account, but if there is 
any information you want, I will submit it to you. 

The Court. If we want anything further, we will call on you. 

(Witness excused.) 

3:30 p. m. 

Shirley Rittter, being by tlie Court first duly sworn, was examined and 
testified as follows : 

Examination by Mr. Garber: 

Q. Wliat is your full name, please? — A. Shirley Rutter. 

Q. Where do you live, please? — A. 11858 Laing. 

Q. By whom are you employed? — A. Now? 

Q. Yes. — A. Silverstine. 

Q. How long have you been employed by Mr. Silverstine? — A. Gee, I don't 
know. It's around January, about the 21st, somewliere around there. I don't 
know the exact date. 

Q. This year? — A. Yes. 

Q. Previous to that time, who were you employed by? — A. Briggs. 

Q. For whom did you work directly? — A. Mr. Herbert. 

Q. Mr. George Herbert?— A. Yes. 

Q. What was Mr. George Herbert's position with Briggs? — A. Supervisor of 
salvage. 

Q. And how long were you employed by Briggs? Were you secretary to Mr. 
Herbert? — A. Well, I guess you would call it that. 

Q. All right. How long were you employed as secretary to Mr. Herbert? — 
A. Gee, I don't know. 

Q. Not the exact dates, but two years, three years? — A. About three years. 

Q. About three years, and as secretary, did you have charge of certain con- 
tracts, or did you have knowledge of certain contracts that were let as to the 
salvage of the Briggs Manufacturing Company? — A. Yes. 

Q. And you were acquainted with those contracts, were you? Did you draft 
them? — A. AVell, yes and no. 

Q. All right, what knowledge did you have? 

Mr. Moll. What do you mean by "yes" and "no"? What does that mean? 

The Witness. The only thing I did was type them. 

Mr. Garber. That's what I mean, did you draft them? 

Mr. MoLi.. At whose dictation? 

The Witness. Mr. Herbert's. 

Mr. Moll. In all cases? ^ 

The Witness. Well, he was my boss. I did what he told me. 

Mr. JNIOLL. Well, there's nothing wrong with that ; is there? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moll. He would dictate the contents of these contracts and you would 
write them up; is that right? 

The Court. You will have to speak for the record. 

The Witness. Just what do you mean by "contract"? I will put it that way. 

Mr. Moll. Contracts for salvage disposed of by Briggs Manufacturing 
Company. 

The Coxjrt. The agreement in writing between Briggs and buyers of the 
salvage that you received the dictation of, wrote it up, we are talking about 
that as a contract. 

The Witness. I tell you, the only thing I did was to write the letters for the 
bids. We received the letters in, I typed them on a sheet of paper, what the 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMME)RCE 357 

prices were, gave thein to Mr. Herbert, and from there I don't know where they 
went. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. Well, after the highest bidder had been determined, was there a contract 
drawn that yon typed, I mean, the highest bidder? — A. Well, not really a contract, 
I don't think yon wonld call it. All I did was acknowle<lge the letters. If the 
highest bidder got it, answer the letter that he got the business. 

The Court. At a price? 

The Witness. At prices he gave us. We just answered them back. 

By Mr. Garber : 

Q. How often did yon send out these letters notifying people bids were to be 
received on salvage? — A. Usually every three months — three or four months. 

Q. Did you sen(l out one (mce a month on paper? — A. Yes, paper was once a 
month. 

Q. But on metals, ferrous and nonferrous, that was about every three 
months? — A. Every three months. 

Q. And apjiroxiniately how many bids did you receive? — A. It would depend 
what the material was. 

Q. Your best judgment, about how many did you receive? — A. I would say five 
or six. 

Q. Five or six on the ferrous metals".' — A. Sometimes in the paper only two; 
sometimes nonferrous was usually about five or six. 

Q. Now, was thei'e any change in this procedure on or about March 1945? — 
A. W»l, I don't know how to an.swer that. 

Q. Well, did anyone new come into the picture? — A. Yes. 

Q. And who came in at that time? — A. Carl Renda. 

Q. Carl Renda, and had you ever .seen Carl Renda before? — A. Before? No. 

Q. Had you ever received any bids from Carl Renda? — A. No. 

Q. In the two and a half years about that you had been there? — A. No, I never 
heard of him. 

Q. S'» he was a new bidder; is that right? — A. Yes. 

Q. Did he win any of the bids or was he awarded any of the bids? — A. Ye.s, 
he was. 

Q. What bids was he awarded about March of last year? — A. Well, I think 
it was the nonferrous. and I believe the ferroiis, and I believe the paper. 

Q. So that a new man came in at that time and he received the contracts on 
the ferrous, ntmferrous, and the svaste paper, is that right"? — A. Yes. 

Q. Was that the majority of the salvage of the Briggs Manufacturing Com- 
pany? — A. Yes. The only other thing we had was aluminum, but I can't remem- 
ber whether he bid on that or not. 

Q. But you are certain he did get the contract for the nonferrous, the ferrous, 
and the waste paper? — A. Yes. I am sure of that. 

Q. Wliether he received the aluminum or not, you are not cert