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Full text of "Investigation of organized crime in interstate commerce. Hearings before a Special Committee to Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, United States Senate, Eighty-first Congress, second session, pursuant to S. Res. 202 .."

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I 




INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME 
IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



, . ,, , HEARINGS 

U^ L-fiyV-r)^*^ --^ -"^ ' ^- BEFORE THE 

SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 

OEGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-FIEST CONGEESS 

SECOND SESSION 
AND 

EIGHTY-SECOND CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

S. Res. 202 

(81st Congress) 

A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AN INVESTIGATION OF 

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



PART 11 



PENNSYLVANIA 



OCTOBER 13, 14,1950; AND FEBRUARY 19, 20, 1951 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce 







UNITED STATES 

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 

WASHINGTON : 1951 



n. S. SUPERINTENDENT OF DOCUMENTS 

MAH 131951 



SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE ORGANIZED CRIME IN 
INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

ESTES KEFAUVEK, Tennessee, Chairman 
HERBERT R. O'CONOR, Maryland CHARLES W. TOBEY, New Hampshire 

LESTER C. HUNT, Wyoming ALEXANDER WILEY, Wisconsin 

RUDOLPH Halley, Chief Counsel 
II 



CONTENTS 



Testimony of — Page 

Campbell, Louis, Jr., Spring City, Pa., accompanied by Robert Joseph 

Spiegel, attorney, Philadelphia, Pa 150-155 

Crusco, Louis J., Philadelphia, Pa., accompanied by Miss Alma Arnldo 

and Aaron Trasoff, attorneys, Philadelphia, Pa 165-182 

Elwell, Vincent L., West Philadelphia, Pa., accompanied by Walter 

Stein, attorney, Philadelphia, Pa 55-71 

Fitzgerald, Richard F., LTpper Darbv, Pa., assistant comptroller, Corn 

Exchange National Bank & Trust Co., Philadelphia, Pa 198-199 

Gray, William A., attorney, Philadelphia, Pa 137-143 

McDonald, Michael, Philadelphia, Pa., accompanied by Walter Stein, 
attorney, Philadelphia, Pa 44-55 

Nissley, Joseph, secretary, Board of Pardons, Commonwealth of Penn- 
sylvania, Harrisburg, Pa 143-149 

Richardson, George F., assistant superintendent of police in charge of 
detectives, and John J. Kellv, patrolman, acting detective, Phila- 
delphia, Pa - 26-44, 285-301 

Rosenberg, Samuel H., director of public safety, Philadelphia, Pa., and 

Judge Sloane, common pleas court No. 7, Philadelphia, Pa 1-24 

Samuel, Richard Russell, Sr., Philadelphia, Pa., accompanied by Wil- 
liam A. Robbins, attorney, Philadelphia, Pa 182-198 

Stromberg, Harrv, alias Nig Rosen, Miami Beach, Fla., accompanied 

by William A. 'Gray, attorney, Philadelphia, Pa 71-99,226-261 

Strunk, William M., Royersford, Pa., accompanied by David Berger. 

attornev, Philadelphia, Pa 155-165 

Taylor, Herman, Philadelphia, Pa 206-224 

Weisberg, William N., Philadelphia, Pa., accompanied by William A. 

Gray, attorney, Philadelphia, Pa 106-137, 142-143, 261-284 

Wiener, Frank, former chairman of State athletic commission, Phila- 
delphia, Pa 101-106 

Young, Reuben, Delaware Equipment Co., Philadelphia, Pa 199-206 

Schedule and Summary of Exhibits iii 

Fridav, October 13, 1950 _" 1 

Saturday, October 14. 1950 101 

Monday, February 19, 1951 225 

Appendix 303 

SCHEDULE OF EXHIBITS 



Number and summary of exhibits 



Appears 
on page 



1. Copy of statement, dated Aug. 9, 1950, prepared by Samuel 

Rosenberg, Director of Public Safety, Philadelphia, Pa., re 
bureau of police vice and gambling suppression activities, 
and a statement from Craig D. Ellis to Mr. Rosenberg en- 
titled "Analvsis of Reports of Arrests from Jan. 1, 1946, to 
June 30, 195*0" 

2. Report of Michael McDonald's suspension from Police De- 

partment, Philadelphia, Pa 

3. Letter dated July 19, 1949, from George F. Richardson, as- 

sistant superintendent of police, Philadelphia, Pa., to 
Daniel P. Sullivan, operating director, Miami Crime Com- 
mission 

4. Official minute book of the Strunk Steel Co., identified by 

William M. Strunk 

6. Police record of Harry Stromberg, alias Nig Rosen 



2 On file witli committee. 

< Pt. 1 of committee's hearings. 



303 
309 



m 



INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE 

COMMERCE 



FRIDAY, OCTOBER 13, 1950 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee to Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Philadelphia^ Pa. 

The committee met, pursuant to call of the chairman, at 10 : 30 a. m. 
in courtroom No. 1, United States Courthouse, Ninth and Market 
Streets, Philadelphia, Pa., Senator Estes Kefauver (chairman of the 
committee) presiding. 

Present : Senators Kefauver (chairman) and O'Conor. 

Also present : Rudolph Halley, chief counsel ; Alfred M. Klein and 
Downey Rice, assistant counsel; John N. McCormick, George H. 
Martin, and INIartin F. Fay, investigators. 

Max H. Goldschein and Justinius Gould, Special Assistants to the 
Attorney General of the United States. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

We appreciate your cooperation and willingness to help us in our 
inquiry. Judge Sloane and Mr. Rosenberg. What do they call you ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Director, among other things. 

The Chairman. We have a rule that all of our witnesses will be 
sworn. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give the committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I do. 

Judge Sloane. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL H. ROSENBERG, DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC 
SAFETY, AND JUDGE JOSEPH SLOANE, COMMON PLEAS COURT 
NO. 7 

Mr. Klein. Director, you have prepared a statement, I believe, as 
of August 8, dealing with the activities of the Bureau of Police in sup- 
pressing vice and gambling. Do you have that statement with you ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Yes. I have another copy. I believe I gave you 
one. Do you wish another copy ? 

Mr. Klein. If you will. 

Suppose we do this. I would like to offer this for admission into the 
record. 

The Chairman. It will be made a part of the record as exhibit 1 
to the testimony of Director Rosenberg. 



2 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Klein. I would also like to offer a statement from Inspector 
Craig D. Ellis, commanding officer of the Philadelphia vice squad, to 
the director of public safety, dealing with the arrests, and an analysis 
of the reports of arrests, for the period from January 1, 1946, to June 
30, 1050, of gambling, vice, and liquor-law violations, which I would 
also like to make a part of the record. 

The Chairman. That will be made a part of the record. 

(The documents referred to were identified as exhibit No. 1, and 
appears in the appendix on p. 303.) 

Mr. Rosenberg. May I suggest that you date Inspector Ellis' 
report the same as the statement, August 8, 1950 ? I see we neglected 
to date that. 

The Chairman. Yes; it will be. In this connection, is the infor- 
mation in these reports confidential ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No ; it is not. 

The Chairman. Would you like to give it to the press, or that we 
give it to the press ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. You can do as you wish. Senator. 

The Chairman. Would it be worth-while public information? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I would think so. We are certainly glad to have 
it disseminated. 

The Chairman. Do you have sufficient copies to give to the members 
of the press ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. The press is aware of the contents. At the time 
it was made, this was given to them. 

The Chairman. Both of these have been given to the press? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No; I think just the one. 

The Chairman. You mean j^our statement ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. That is right. 

The Chairman. Is there any objection to releasing the report to 
you? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No; there is no objection in making any use. 

The Chairman. I did not know whether it was something for our 
confidential information. 

Mr. Rosenberg. No. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Mr. Klein. Director, you say in your statement that to your knowl- 
edge there is no single daytime gambling establishment in Phila- 
delphia. 

Mr. Rosenberg. That is correct. 

Mr. Keein. You also say that there are no big syndicates and no 
games. 

Mr. Rosenberg. In the sense that the newspapers generally picture 
that, I believe that is so. 

Mr. Klein. Will you tell the committee what your information 
is as to the operation of numbers banks in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. The best information I have is that they operate 
in sections. There may be one section in west Philadelphia, another 
section in south Philadelphia, another group in east Philadelphia, an- 
other group in north Philadelphia ; but there is no tie-in. 

Mr. Klein. Between the various gangs 

Mr, Halley. How do they allocate territory without a tie-in? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I really don't know that. I am not that inti- 
mately acquainted with their operations. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 3 

Mr. Hallet. They do allocate territories ; don't they ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I don't know that. 

Mr. Halley. You don't have gang wars among them ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No; we haven't had any gang wars. We had a 
shooting here some months ago. 

Mr. Halley. You actually have a number of banks operating 
throughout the city in different sections; is that right? 

Mr. Rosenberg. That is right. 

]Mr. Halley. And with no outward flare-up in the form of serious 
conflict ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. There has been no flare-up ; no. 

Mr. Halley. Wouldn't you draw the inference that they must have 
some agreement among themselves? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No; I wouldn't at all. I would attribute that to 
good police work. 

Mr. Halley. You mean your policemen keep each group in its own 
section ? You wouldn't want to say that ; would you ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. They keep chasing them all the time. 

Mr. Halley. You would be bound to chase one into somebody else's 
territory once in a while. 

Mr. Rosenberg. Our object is to chase them out of town. 

Mr. Halley. Have you succeeded ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I think we have. I think it is very difficult for them 
to operate in Philadelphia. 

Mr. Halley. Do you say they are not operating now ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No; I do not. I don't say that gambling isn't in 
existence in Philadelphia ; certainly not. 

Mr. Halley. To the extent they are operating, they seem to have 
the territories allocated among themselves ; do they not ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I couldn't take an oath that that is so. I don't know 
that that is so, but there is an inference that that may exist. 

Mr. Halley. If that exists, may I ask you to build an inference on 
an inference, and say, if there is an inference that they allocate the 
territory, there must be an inference that there is some connection 
between the various banks ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I can't come to that conclusion ; no. 

Mr. Halley. We will have to go ahead. This is just our start. I 
just wanted your view on it, sir. 

Excuse me, Al. 

Mr. Klein. Do you know who is the principal operator of the' west 
Philadelphia bank ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No; I don't. Inspector Ellis would have better 
information than I would in that regard. 

Mr. Klein. The same answer holds for the various other sections 
of the city ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. That is right. 

I am not personally acquainted with the operation of this activity. 
I mean, I haven't the intimate knowledge that, for instance. Inspector 
Ellis would have. 

Mr. Klein. You don't get reports on the operations of these var- 
rious numbers gangs? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Only the result of the activity of the police. 

Mr. Klein. In the form of arrests ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. That is right. 



4' ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Klein. Who has charge of enforcement of law with respect 
to gambling ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I would say that that is up to the entire police de- 
partment. There is no one man in charge of it. We have a vice squad, 
and then each police division has its own plain-clothes men who are 
charged with the suppression of vice in that division. 

Mr. Klein. How is the city divided up as to police enforcement? 

Mr. Rosenberg. The vice squad has city- wide jurisdiction. The 
police divisions are 7 in number, and that covers the entire city. For 
instance, the fifth police division is in charge of West Philadelphia ; 
the second is central Philadelphia, and so on. 

Mr. Klein, Is the vice squad independent? 

Mr. Rosenberg. In what respect? 

Mr. Klein. To whom is the vice squad accountable ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. To the superintendent of police. 

Mr. Klein. To the superintendent of police ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. And to myself. 

Mr. Klein. And to yourself? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. You have indicated that you believe there are still 
gambling operations ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Klein. In Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. There always will be, Mr. Klein. 

Mr. Klein. Are you aware that it is common knowledge, in con- 
nection with that gambling operation, that payments are made to 
police officers ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I have never been able to prove that. 

Mr. Klein. You have never been able to prove it ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. We have asked for proof, and have never been able 
to obtain it. 

Mr. Klein. What efforts have you made to check up on that com- 
mon knowledge? 

JMr. Rosenberg. We have done this: For instance, as far as the 
vice squad is concerned, about a year ago, if such a condition existed, 
we instituted a policy of changing the personnel of the vice squad, 
and I would say at the present time there is practically a complete 
change of the vice squad; and that goes on constantly, and will go on 
in the future. Men are changed from time to time. So if such a 
tie-up would exist, that would break it up. And in addition to that, 
we have changed a number of our police inspectors who are doing ex- 
cellent work, and that is reflected in these statistics, which shows a 
sharp rise in the activity of the local police. By "local," I mean the 
divisions, a sharp rise in their activity as compared to the vice squad. 

We have taken these inspectors and put them in the sections that we 
feel are the worst. I feel they are doing an excellent job, and in each 
case they have been told time and again, were told when they were 
sent in there, that they would be held personally responsible for condi- 
tions in the division, that they have absolute control of the division, 
that they had complete leeAvay, could select their own men who were 
to handle vice, and that is what has been done. 

Mr. Klein. You have left it entirely in the hands of your inspectors ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No. So far as responsibility is concerned. In other 
words, they have been given complete freedom of police activity. 



ORGANIZED' CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 5 

Tliere is nobody holding them back. There isn't a place in the city of 
Philadelphia that is immune from arrest. For this reason, if I may 
pursue that a bit further, any gambling that may be going on could 
never be sure of protection, because they could be raided by any num- 
ber of four different groups. They could be raided by the vice squad, 
they could be raided by the division inspector, they could be raided by 
the captain of the district, they could be raided by what was formerly 
called the crime prevention division. So it would be impossible for 
a place to be guaranteed immunity, because there would be at least 
four independent groups that could hit them, and any arrangement 
which they might make with one w^ould be a precarious thing because 
they wouldn't know but that the next minute one of these other groups 
might come in and raid them. 

Mr. Klein. They might, however, make arrangements with all four. 

Mr. Rosenberg. That would be impossible, in my opinion. 

Mr. Klein. Why ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Because of the confidence that I have in most of 
them. For instance, take Inspector Murphy in West Philadelphia, in 
whom I have absolute confidence. I am sure that nobody could make 
an arrangement with him. West Philadelphia was one of our worst 
sections. 

]\Ir. Klein. You said that you have confidence in most of your 
officers. Am I to take it from that, that you don't have confidence in 
all of them ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. In what percentage do you not have confidence ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I couldn't give you a percentage, ]\Ir. Klein, but one 
of our worst draw-backs is the civil-service regulations in existence 
in Philadelphia, originally intended to be on the merit basis, but 
which have put us in an absolute strait-jacket. In other words, it is 
absolutely impossible for me to demote a man unless I can prove a case 
that would stand up in court, and in police matters that is very dif- 
ficult. I have no authority to demote a man, nor have I authority to 
promote a man, strangely enough. I must take them from civil- 
service lists in most cases, and in order to demote a man I must prove 
a case which would stand up before the civil-service commission and 
subsequently in court. Suspicion is something in most cases impos- 
sible to prove as a matter of court record. You just couldn't do it. 

Mr. Klein. In other words, so far as the handling of the police 
themselves in promotion or demotion, your own feelings, your own 
attitude is of no account? You are shackled in that respect? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Absolutely. 

We had one case of an inspector who we felt wasn't doing an ag- 
gressive job. I at no time made an accusation that he was dishonest. 
It might be that the person just hasn't sufficient aggresiveness to do 
the job. We thought we had proven a good case. We went before 
the civil-service commission and lost out. 

The Chairman. What is the name of that man ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. It happened to be Inspector Hardiman. 

INIr. Klein. Some few weeks ago, you shook up the vice squad, 
and among others whom you apparently removed from the vice squad 
was Lieutenant of Detectives Clarence Ferguson. Another officer 
whom you apparently removed from the vice squad was Detective 
Charles Perkolup. Can you give us their background ? 



6 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rosp:nberg. That happened more than a couple of weeks ago, 
Mr. Klein, It was part of the policy of changing the personnel of 
the vice squad. 

Mr. Klein. You used the expression "for the good of the service" 
in justification of that change. 

Mr. EosEXBEEG. No, That was incorrectly reported in the news- 
paper. They were simply transferred out of there. I did not use 
that expression, 

Mr, Klein. Are Lieutenant Ferguson and Detective Perkolup men 
in whom you have absolute confidence, as you have in Inspector Mur- 
phy ? 

Mr. Rosenberg, I don't know them that intimately, but it was part 
of the policy of changing the vice squad which started a year ago, and 
it was their turn to go. 

Mr. Klein. How long had Ferguson been in the vice squad ? 

Mr. RosENBEiiT. I am not sure of the number of years, but it was 
quite a long time. I would guess 10 or 15 years. 

JSIr, Klein. Perkolup had been there approximately the same time? 

Mr, Rosenberg. I would guess so. That is available, if you want 
the exact information. I don't have it with me. 

Mr. Klein, To get back to the question I asked before, you have 
indicated that there are a number of officers in whom you do not have 
absolute confidence. Are they ordinary patrolmen, or are they of 
higher rank? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I would say that they would go all the way from 
patrolman up, but in most cases it would be impossible to prove it. 
In some cases it may be either inability or unwillingness to do the job. 

Mr. Klein. You wouldn't classify them as dishonest? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I would only classify a man dishonest who I could 
prove was dishonest, and I couldn't prove that any of these were dis- 
honest. 

Mr. Klein. Are you basing your suspicions on information re- 
ceived, or is it from your own investigation? 

]Mr. Rosenberg, From lack of activity along certain lines. 

Mr. Klein. Will you name for the committee those officers from 
the rank of lieutenant up, in whom you feel you don't have full con- 
fidence ? 

Mr, Rosenberg, I don't think that is fair, Mr, Klein, because I 
couldn't be specific to that extent. In the first place, I am not familiar 
with the over 5,000 personnel in the bureau of police. I haven't a 
personal acquaintanceship with any of them. 

The Chairman, I think the record on this point is probably well 
made on that. If you have any specific ones in mind about whom you 
think information would be helpful to the committee, we would be 
glad to have that. Of coui^e, this is an executive session. 

Mr, Rosenberg, I understand that, but lack of confidence would 
not necessarily mean dishonesty. For instance, there might be a 
crime situation in a certain neighborhood, and I feel the man can't 
handle it, aside from vice, I have lack of confidence in him, I feel 
he hasn't got what it takes to clean the situation up ; but I will not 
accuse the man of being dishonest unless I can prove that he is dis- 
honest, I may feel that way about it, but I could never prove it in 
court. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE^ 7 

There were three inspectors Avho were removed from their com- 
mands. 

The Chairman. Who were they? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Inspector Hardiman, Inspector Connor, and In- 
spector McP'arland. 

The Chairman. What do you mean by "removed from their com- 
mands"; they were transferred? 

Mr. Rosenberg, Transferred to headquarters. 

JNIr. Klein. They were not reduced in rank, though, were they ? 

JNIr. Rosenberg. We couldn't i-educe them in rank. 

Mr. Klein. On account of that civil-service restriction? 

Mr. Rosenberg. That is right. 

The Chairman. That was Hardiman, Connor 

Mr. Rosenberg. And McFarland. They were replaced by acting 
inspectors. 

The Chairman. What is the situation about them? 

]\Ir. Rosenberg. They are at headquarters. 

The Chairman. What is the trouble with them ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I felt that they weren't doing an aggressive job in 
their divisions. 

Mr. Klein. Director, have you any suggestions to offer to the com- 
mittee that would help in the formulation of legislation that would 
curb gambling, particularly as it is affected by interstate ties? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I refer to my letter to Senator Kefauver dated 
February 15, 1950, which I assume is in your file. 

The Chairman. Yes, it is, and we will place tlie letter in the record 
at this point. 

(The letter referred to is on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Rosenberg. I do know that so far as gambling joints in the 
accepted sense of the term, they don't exist in Philadelphia, So far 
as slot machines, they are practically nonexistent. I am sure of that. 
There are not commercialized houses of prostitution. The other ac- 
tivities are engaged in furtively. I feel we have a good record for 
enforcement. I definitely feel that you are never going to eliminate 
gambling, no matter how" aggressively you pursue it. A continuing 
drive of that nature takes a lot of men, and police work locally 
throughout the country is constantly expanding. There are other 
demands for services. In most cases, local police departments aren't 
given sufficient men. 

I might point out to you, for instance, that in traffic control, which 
may seem remote to your committee, 30 or 40 years ago, possibly 3 
or 4 percent of our personnel was detailed to traffic. Today, 20 percent 
are detailed exclusively to traffic. 

I bring that out to show that there are more and more demands for 
police work, and we can't take all our policemen and put them on vice. 
It is just impossible. 

Mr. Klein. In tliat connection, what percentage of your officei-s 
are detailed to vice ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. 1 would have to take a hurried guess. All of them, 
of course, if they see anything illegal, should go after it. 

Mr. Klein. I understand. 

Mr. Rosenberg. I would say, very hurriedly, that possibly 75, in 
round figures, are specialized in vice. 

Mr. Klein. Seventy -five percent? 



8 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rosenberg. No, no, 75 policemen. 

Mr. Klein. Out of a total of how many officers ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Out of a total presently of a little over 4,000 pa- 
trolmen. 

Mr. Klein. Do you believe that 75 men out of 4,000 patrolmen are 
sufficient ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I could never say that there was a sufficient number, 
Mr. Klein. The only time you would, ever reach that point is when 
you felt you had driven gambling out of the city, which I don't believe 
could be* done with 25,000 policemen, because, human nature being 
what it is, you are just never going to stop gambling. The big money 
that is always present there is always attractive to people, and you, 
are never going to get them to stop. 

The Chairman. Senator O'Conor ? 

Senator O'Conor. I have several questions I would like to ask, but 
I would like to wait until after the judge testifies. 

Mr. Rosenberg. I might say it has been a help to us, the changing 
attitude of the courts, and with all due regard to Judge Sloane, I think 
I helped initiate and make the courts a bit conscious of their responsi- 
bility in that direction. I don't believe I am disclosing any confidence 
when I say that in the early part of this year, I approached the courts 
and asked them to be a bit more realistic in their handling of gambling 
cases, as that would be a big help to the police department. I am very 
glad to say that we have had very good cooperation as of recent months 
from Judge Sloane and several of the other members of the common 
pleas bunch. 

The Chairman. Suppose, Mr. Klein, you ask Judge Sloane at this 
time. Wlien we have finished, we will ask either the director or Judge 
Sloane any questions. 

Judge Sloane. May I see either you or Mr. Rosenberg a minute? 
I want to suggest something. I thought it ought to be very quietly. 

Mr. Klein. Suggest it on the record. We are in executive session. 

The Chairman. That is all right. Surely. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Tlie Chairman. Before we proceed with Judge Sloane, we want 
to take our witnesses in pairs. Mr. Richardson, is Mr. Kelly with 
you? We want to call both of you in just a little while, and will you 
wait outside until we call you back ? 

(Mr. Richardson and Mr. Kelly left the room.) 

Mr. Rosenberg. May I say one more thing in my testimony ? 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

]\[r. Rosenberg. On May 15, there appeared a news story, a state- 
ment given by Senator McFarland, in which he said that any head 
of a police department who wanted to get a list of places receiving 
information could have it by writing for it. Do you recall that state- 
ment ? 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rosenberg. On the very same day, I wrote to Senator McFar- 
land, and unfortunately did not receive a reply. However, some time 
later the Evening Bulletin managed to get a list, without our knowl- 
edge ; and, again without our knowledge, they took the list, sent re- 
porters to every one of those places, and gave the results in the paper. 
Not a one was found to be in existence, not a single one. 

The Chairman. I saw that in your statement here. 



I 



ORGANIZED' CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 9 

Mr. KosENBERG. I didn't know I referred to it. I wrote that state- 
ment some time ago. I thought I ought to mention that. 

The Chairman. There has been a wire service here, has there not, 
from Camden ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. There has been suspicion it has been coming from 
Camden ; yes. 

The Chairman. Do you know of any drops in the city at all? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No; I don't. 

The Chairman. Now, Senator O'Conor. 

Senator O'Conor. I would rather hear Judge Sloans first, except, 
Senator Kefauver, whether or not Director Rosenberg would like to 
add anything further at this time. 

Mr. Rosenberg. No. I was as frank with you as I could have been. 
I would have preferred that we be here alone, but it doesn't matter. 
One of our worst strait- jackets is our civil-service laws, and originally 
its purpose was to make promotions on merit and to protect people, 
but it has been an absolute strait- jacket, certainly in police work. 
Police are a military organization, and you just can't run a military 
organization with civil service commissions. 

The Chairman. That is a law particularly for the State of Penn- 
sylvania ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. The State of Pennsylvania. 

The Chairman. Is it applicable to all the cities in the State ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. It is applicable to most of the cities, but certainly 
to Philadelphia. Philadelphia is the only first-class city, so-called, 
mider our legislation. In Pennsylvania, Philadelphia is the only 
first-class city, and the legislature makes it mandatory that promotions 
all the way up the line be by civil service commission. 

The Chairman. It is a State law, but it is passed peculiarly or par- 
ticularly for the city of Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right, proceed with Judge Sloane. 

Judge Sloane. Before you get to me, might I interject, you do have 
a difference of opinion between a man like Inspector Murphy who, in 
the words of the street, is a damned good cop, and a man like Ferguson, 
don't you ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Oh, definitely ; sure. 

Judge Sloane. In other words, you would rely absolutely on Mur- 
phy, whereas you might not on Ferguson ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. That is right. 

Judge Sloane. You see, there is a certain frankness here that he 
might not have been able to give, with the assistant superintendent 
of police here. 

Mr. Halley. May I ask a question before you start. Judge? 

Mr. Rosenberg, naturally before coming here we received a lot of 
information, and there seems to be a lot of at least hearsay, rumor, 
that a great many, certainly not all of any police department or even 
the majority, but enough to cause real trouble, of the people in the 
police department, are working with these policy bankers. 

Mr. Rosenberg. That might be so. 

Mr. Halley. You think it might be so ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Absolutely. 

Mr. Halley. Of course, those things are extremely hard to prove. 

Mr. Rosenberg. That is my point. 



10 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. And even harder for the man in the department to 
prove than for an outsider. 

Mr. Rosenberg. I would be very naive if I sat here and told you 
that every member of the Philadelphia Police Department was abso- 
lutely honest and wouldn't take a nickel. 

Mr, Halley. There seems to be some assertion that what corruption 
does exist — and I am in no position to say it does exist — but the asser- 
tions are that if it does exist, it is on a fairly well-organized basis, with 
the patrolman on the beat getting a certain amount, and turning part 
of it over to his superiors on up the line. 

Mr. Rosenberg. That, I do not believe. It has never been proven, 
and I don't believe it exists. I believe if there is bribery, it is on a 
haphazard basis, certainly so since I have been in there, because we 
have tried to make it impossible, and I know it is impossible today for 
a place to run and be absolutely sure that they are not going to be hit. 
That is impossible. 

Mr. Halley. Of course, they don't mind being hit, if they are not 
hit too hard. 

Mr. Rosenberg. I know what you mean, the convenience arrests. I 
know that. I mean, we have agencies. For instance, let's take Murphy. 
Judge Sloane mentioned Murphy, I know absolutely that nobody 
can take care of Murphy, and nobody can take care of Kronbar in 
South Philadelphia. 

jMr. Halley. There would be no question, in any decent police force, 
that the number of bad men you would have to have would be a very 
small number and still be able to produce an extremely serious 
situation. 

Mr. Rosenberg. Bear in mind, too, there is some significance to this. 
I have mentioned Kronbar and Murphy. They are in the two worst 
sections of the city of Philadelphia, and I have complete confidence in 
them. That is where our worst trouble is, and it represents, in round 
figures, probably a third of the city's population. I know that nobody 
can take care of them. So it isn't a question of an arrest of convenience 
in their case. Anybody operating in West Philadelphia doesn't know 
when he is going to be hit. 

Mr. Halley. Would it be your view, then, that some corruption 
probably exists, but it is on a haphazard vasis ? 

Mr. Rosenbfjig. That would be my view. 

It is also my view that you are never going to eliminate it in a big 
metropolitan area. You might be able to do it in a city of o,000 
people, but we have a metropolitan population here of close to 4,000,000 
people who live here or work here or come here for shopping or 
business, 

Mr, Halley. Does this corruption reach up into the executive mem- 
bers of the police force ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Not in my opinion. 

Mr. Halley. Would you say it goes beyond the rank of, say, lieu- 
tenant ? 

]VIr. Rosenberg. No. You have the wrong rank. We have no lieu- 
tenant in the police department. 

Mr. Halley. Say, Captain, would you think any of your captains 
might be giving protection? 

Mr. Rosenberg. It may have in the past. I don't believe it exists 
today. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 11 

Mr. Hallet. What would you think would be the highest rank in 
which you would expect to find any corruption? 

Mr. EosENBERG. It is just a guess. For instance, let's take Super- 
intendent Sutton, in whom I have implicit faith. If someone showed 
me that he did anything wrong, I would just throw my hands up and 
quit. I don't believe it exists up to the rank of inspector today, be- 
cause in our four worst sections I have men there that I don't believe 
would take a nickel, in the four worst sections. 

Mr. Halley. Do you think there is any political support for 
corruption ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. With all due modesty, I don't believe it exists today 
or has existed since I have been in there. 

Mr. Halley. You think that any improper arrangements that exist 
receive no aid or comfort from any political figures? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Not to my knowledge; but again, I am not in a 
position to take an oath, nor is anyone else, that it doesn't exist. 

Mr. Halley. Of course. 

Mr. Rosenberg. There may be informal understandings, but, I say 
again, it is awfully difficult for them to carry them out, because I 
feel we are in very good shape. 

Mr. Halley. You think the policy banks are down to a minimum? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I don't know what a minimum means. I do 
know this, and I repeat this : It is becoming more and more difficult 
for them to operate, and our raids indicate that, the number of banks 
that have been hit, the number of bookmaking establishments that 
have been hit. I don't mean bookies, but headquarters. The number 
of arrests which have been made, particularly in the past year. 

Mr. Halley. You mean during 1950? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No; I go a little beyond that. And, in-all modesty, 
I take some credit for it. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

Mr. Klein. How long have you been director of public safety ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Since March of 1949. 

Mr. Klein. What did you do before that ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I was secretary to the mayor. 

Mr. Klein. How long were you secretary to the mayor ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I was secretary when Mayor Lamberton went in 
in 1940, and continued in the mayor's office under Mayor Samuel 
until March of last year. 

Mr. Klein. You are a member of the Philadelphia bar? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right, let us question the judge. 

Mr. Klein. Judge Sloane, we would like to hear from you the atti- 
tude of the courts toward this matter of gambling in Philadelphia. 
That attitude, I understand, has stiffened in the last few months, and 
according to a report you w^ere the prime mover in the stiffening of 
that attitude. I would like you to tell the committee what you know 
about judicial handling of gambling cases. 

The Chairman. First, Judge Sloane, you are judge of the common 
pleas court ? 

Judge Sloane. That is right. 

The Chairman. How long have you been judge? 

Judge Sloane. May 14, 1937. 



12 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. The common pleas court is the criminal court for 
the trial of this kind of case? 

Judge Sloane. When a judge sits in criminal court he is not called 
a judge of common pleas. He is called a court of quarter sessions or 
oyer and terminer or general delivery. We are not like New York, 
where they have special judges sitting in criminal courts. We have 
general civil jurisdiction, and general criminal jurisdiction above a 
certain amount. 

The Chairman. How many judges are there ? 

Judge Sloane. There are 21. There are seven courts, and three in 
each court. 

The Chairman. Do you try cases with a court of three, or do you 
try cases individually ? 

Judge Sloane. No. We try them individually. When there is a 
motion for new trial, then there is a court en banc, which may consist 
of two or three. 

The Chairman. There are 21 ? 

Judge Sloane. There are 21 judges of my equivalent. 

The Chairman. All right, sir. 

You remember the question, so go ahead Judge. 

Judo:e Sloane. I suppose I ought to say I speak for myself. So far 
as stiffening is concerned, for myself, I don't think I stiffened much, 
because I always took the position that while gambling on the books 
is a misdemeanor, it is not a felony, that its after-effects or its con- 
tinuing effects are rather severe. In one word, demoralization. That 
included police, that included minor judiciary ; I hope no others. It 
included the general citizenry. The general casual and cavalier out- 
look on this thing bothered me all the time, so I have been sending 
them to jail, not on the first offense and perhaps not on the second 
offense, but I Wanted some focus of point, some long finger of the court, 
to show that this demoralization was at least not being countenanced 
by us, by me, by us. 

Recently, as the director said, there has been much talk about it. 
For example, the dockets became very crowded, as you suggested. 
When the director called attention to it — and Sammy Rosenberg is, in 
my opinion, an absolutely honest director and is trying his best to 
clean up any situation. I think, of course, that he can't clean it up 
with all the ramifications that are bound to exist at some echelon, and 
I suppose it is humanly impossible to do so. He has been in the depart- 
ment, as he says, only since 1949. 

Recently we have, I guess, stiffened a little bit, although as I say, 
if I had the same men who had come before me previously there now, 
I think I would have done the same thing. Of course, I can't tell. 

The big thing, in my mind, is the demoralization that occurs. I 
don't think in Philadelphia we have the big names that apparently 
are rumored all over the country, names that you know. I, for one, 
have not been able to catch wliat might be called the big fry. 

Mr. Ktjein. Is that because the police don't catch the big fry? 

Judge Sloane. I don't know what to say, Mr. Klein. I have been 
indoctrinated with the belief that a man is not guilty until he is proved 
guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I hear many a rumor. I will put 
it that way. I get many a suspicion. But every time a man comes 
before me, I will say to him, I think without fail 1 say to him, "Whom 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 13 

did you <?et it from ? Wliom do you bank with ? Whom do you turn 
these slips over to?" 

I can ahnost give liim tlie answer, because it comes so often. 

Senator 0"Conor. At this point, is it not so self-evident, in view of 
the extent of operations, that there must be a higher group ? 

Judge Sloane. Yes. 

Senator O'Conor. In other words, while you verj'^ frankly stated 
that you haven't been able just to put your finger on it, there must 
nevertheless exist a higher group? 

Judge Sloane. I am convinced of that. When a man says to me, he 
may be untutored but he is not unintelligent, when he says to me, "I 
meet a man on the corner, and what's his name, Jim, John, Joe, and I 
just hand it to him and he gives me any share,'' if that keeps on going 
I can't help but believe that he does know and won't tell, and is willing 
to take the rap; or, if he is fined, that somebody is paying the fine 
for him. I have had instances of that. Or that he has been cajoled 
or threatened into not telling. 

Senator O'Conor. May I ask this. Judge? In the handling of the 
cases at your level in the higher courts, has there been evidence at all 
that the individuals have on prior occasions run afoul of the law or 
come into contact with it, and possibly received very lenient treat- 
ment at the lower level ? 

Judge Sloane. As it looks now ; yes. 

Senator O'Conor. If such did exist, I thought that you could be of 
inestimable value in giving us the benefit of your sound judgment in 
regard to the possibility of a different type of treatment at the lower 
level. 

Judge Sloane. Yes. For instance, I take a record — ^I am sorry I 
didn't bring one — and I see, for example, "Lottery — discharged ; Lot- 
tery — discharged ; Lottery — discharged ; Lottery — discharged," three 
or four times. It may be perfectly all right, I don't know, because I am 
not there at that time. It may have happened 2 or 3 years ago. It 
may have happened in the sequence. But it does, as Senator O'Conor 
says, give me a feeling that something happened there. 

Mr. Klein. Does the record show in each case the name of the mag- 
istrate or the judge? 

Judge Sloane. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. And does that occur with frequency before the same 
magistrate? 

Judge Sloane. I can't say that, Mr. lOein. Magistrates differ.^ We 
have how many, 48? 

Mr. Rosenberg. About 27. 

Judge Sloane. Twenty-eight. 

Mr. Halley. Judge Sloane, what is the average fine given to policy 
bookmakers on the first arrest ? 

Judge Sloane. It is hard to put an average on it. 

Mr. Halley. What would you say is the maximum ? 

Judge Sloane. The maximum under the act, of course, is a $500 
fine and an indeterminate sentence, the maximum of which is a year, 
but they vary from $25 to $50. I very seldom have seen any over $200 
or $250. 

Mr. Halley. On the first arrest ? 

Judge Sloane. Yes. 

68958 — 51— pt. 11 2 



14 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr, Halley. On the second arrest, do tliey run higher? 

Judge Sloane. a little higher. 

Mr. Halley. On the third arrest, have they been going to jail ? 

Judge Sloane. I would say generally no. I would say generally no. 
I just had a man who had eight arrests. It is a matter of public rec- 
ord, so I can mention his name. 

The Chairman. What is his name ? 

Judge Sloane. William Braverman, He is now in jail. He has 
the newspaper stand at the Ben Franklin lobby. From 1938 until 
now, he has had seven or eight or nine arrests and convictions. He 
never has been in jail. 

Mr. Halley. And he never paid a fine of over $200 or $300? 

Judge Sloane. No, not over that. I am talking from memory now. 

Mr. Halley. We have seen some information that a single book 
will make as much as $10,000, $20,000 and $30,000 a day gross. 

Judge Sloane. That I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. If there is any truth in that, a $200 fine would not 
mean too much, would it? 

Judge Sloane. I would say generally it doesn't mean a thing. 

Mr. Halley. That is what I was about to ask you. 

Judge Sloane. It doesn't mean a thing. 

Mr. Halley. Judge, when you have a man before you and he is 
about to plead guilty and pay his fine, and you ask him who he works 
for, naturally he doesn't know, or it is a guy named Joe ? 

Judge Sloane. Right. 

Mr. Halley. Could you impose a jail sentence on his plea of guilty 
and another jail sentence for contempt of court, and send him away 
for a couple of years ; and if you did, what would happen? 

Judge Sloane. I don't think I could do the latter. I would be 
reversed almost forthwith. 

Mr. Halley. On the contempt ? 

Judge Sloane. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. When a person says he doesn't know who he is in busi- 
ness with, isn't it an obvious untruth? 

Judge Sloane. No, it is not so untruth — ^you are a lawyer, aren't 
you? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Judge Sloane. You and I can talk on the same level. 

Mr. Halley. I used to prosecute, and I sent one or two away for 
doing just that. 

Judge Sloane. Don't forget, on contempt, you know how far our 
United States Supreme Court has gone, certainly recently, on the ques- 
tion of contempt. 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Judge Sloane. An open contempt, which I suppose you are talking 
about, contempt in court, in the presence of the court, is one that has to 
be a plain, manifest situation. When he says, "I don't know," that is 
not so plain and manifest that I can show that he is dead wrong and 
that he is lying. I have no way of proving that he does know. I am 
saying to you that since it has happened so often, I don't believe them. 

Mr. Halley. Suppose you merely gave them the maximum on their 
policy-book operation in such a case, do you think that would have a 
beneficial effect ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 15 

Judge Sloane. I don't think it would have a beneficial effect in the 
sense tiiat it would make him open his mouth, because I think he would 
rather take that rap than find himself busted up, possibly, or in threat 
of it. 

Then, of course, being a firm believer, as I think I am, and hope I 
am, in not giving a man the third degree, but in trying, if at all possi- 
ble, through the director to see to it that the police, in the old words of 
Maitland v. Pollack^ don't sit in the shade and rub pepper in a man's 
eyes rather than go out into the sun and seek the evidence, if that can 
be done that would be the much better wa3\ I think there are 
higher-ups. 

Mr. Halley. When you ask a man in open court, at a public hear- 
ing, for some facts, and he doesn't give them, you are not third- 
degreeing him. 

Judge Sloane. No, I am not third-degreeing him, but 

Mr. Halley, Would you be subject to criticism in the press? 

Judge Sloane. That doesn't worry me. 

Mr. Haixey. Public opinion is important. 

Judge Sloane. Yes, but it wouldn't worry me if I thought in my 
own good conscience I was doing the right thing. 

Mr. Hali.ky. Do you think you can break up these rackets without 
going at them with a really strong approach? 

Judge Sloane. Yes, I think you need a strong approach, but you 
must have help. You can give them jail sentences, but that is not 
enough. 

Mr. Halley. What else would do the trick ? 

Judge Sloane. I think a strong enforcement by men like Murphy 
and the other names he has mentioned. 

Mr. Halley. Of course, the superintendent has just explained that 
he can't do it alone. 

Judge Sloane. He can't do it alone, but if he takes his end, and 
when they come before me I take my end, it will help. But I can't 

Mr. Halley. Isn't it the judicial end to take the fellow who won't 
talk and show him that the forces of justice are as strong and 
emphatic as the forces that tend to keep his mouth quiet? 

Judge Sloane. I agree with that, but how far can we go? Your 
question, for example, is: Can I hold him in contempt? I say that 
under the law, I don't think so, under the decisions, I can give him a 
maximum of 6 months to a year on that charge. 

Mr. Halley. I guess we have about exhausted the subject'. 

Mr. Klein. Judge, it has come to our attention in the examination 
of some criminal records, that guilty defendants have been sentenced 
and subsequently their sentences have been reconsidered by the judge 
who originall}^ imposed the sentence, and they have apparently gotten 
off wdth either no punishment or very light punishment, although the 
punishment originally inflicted might have been a deterrent to the 
defendant. Is that a common practice? 

Judge Sloane. I can't speak for the other judges, Mr. Klein, but 
for myself, I doubt whether you will find one reconsideration. 

Mr. Klein. I know in the case of Judge Sloane that is virtually im- 
possible, but it is done by other judges. 

Judge Sloane. I have heard of its being done, yes. There may be 
circumstances that come in, I don't know. This Braverman I sent to 
jail, they want me to let him out because they say he has multiple 



16 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

sclerosis. I have had five doctors examine him. The doctoi-s in the 
prison say he will do as well in the jail. So there he is. But if, in a 
month from now, the superintendent of the prison tells me he is going 
to die if I keep him in jail, it is probable that I will let him out, 
because I don't want a man to die on my hands because of that kind of 
offense. 

Mr. Klein. In your experience, is pressure ever brought to bear 
on the courts to be lenient with these racketeers ? 

Judge Sloane. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Where does that pressure come from ? 

Judge Sloane. It comes from parents, wives, bringing in their 
children. I don't know whether I am foolish to see them, but I see 
them all. It comes from committeemen. 

Mr. Klein. It comes from political connections ? 

Judge Sloane. It comes from committeemen. They try to do it 
in a way that indicates they are just trying to help out. In other 
words, they try to divorce it from the very idea of politics. What they 
say is, "I am the committeeman in the division, and they all look to 
me," and I am sure there is truth to that. "In view of the situation 
in the family, see what you can do." Sure they come in. 

Mr. Kxein. Is that true of the other judges, as well? 

Judge Sloane. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Do they come to you in private, or come to you 
in open court ? 

Judge Sloane. No; they come to you in chambers. They will 
walk in. 

The Chairman. When court is open ? 

Judge Sloane. No; they come to your office, after the thing is 
over. Sure they come in. They don't come in regularly, but they have 
been in. I would be telling you an untruth if I didn't tell you that. 

Mr. Klein. Have you ever had any approach from a political source 
higher than a committeeman ? 

Judge Sloane. No. Well, let me think. There may have been a 
ward leader, but not higher than a ward leader. 

The Chairman. Are these Democratic and Republican ? 

Judge Sloane. Yes ; it makes no difference. 

The Chairman. They are both here in Philadelphia ? 

Judge Sloane. Oh, yes ; they are both here. 

Mr. Klein. As a matter of fact. Judge Sloan is a Democratic judge. 

Judge Sloane. I am a Democrat personally. On the bench, I hope 
I am nonpartisan. 

The Chairman. Senator O'Conor ? 

Senator O'Conor. I was just going to ask, Judge, in general if 
your understanding of the situation coincides with Director Rosen- 
berg's, not that I wish to bring out any differences, but I just wonder 
if in general you agree? 

Judge Sloane. I doubt that Sammy and I will ever fight. We 
may differ. 

Senator O'Conor. I meant whether your appraisal is the same. 

Judge Sloane. I am inclined to think that there is more than the 
director said. It is not because he is not right, because, as I say — I 
want to preface it again, even though it is repetition, that there is a 
real director, I told it to others, so I can tell it to his face, doing the 
best job he can. But I do think there are higher-ups. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 17 

Senator O'Conor. The point I was trying to come to was this : With- 
out in any sense casting any reflection on the director, who of course 
has been in for just a Uttle over a year, whether there may not have 
been conditions existing at the time he took over 

Judge Sloane. Senator, you have hit it on the head. 

Senator O'Conor. Which, despite his vigilance and his fine work, 
nevertheless cannot be eradicated. 

Judge Sloane. He has police in his department — as he said, he is 
stymied and handicapped by the restrictions of the Civil Service Act. 
He has men in there before him that are nowhere near the men that 
he would take if he could get them. That is the reason I wanted 
[Richardson out of here. 

Mr. RosENBERCx. If I may, Judge, wouldn't you say you think condi- 
tions have improved in the past year? 

Judge Sloane. Absolutely, they have. Absolutely. 

Senator O'Conor. I was the prosecuting attorney right here in the 
adjoining city of Baltimore for 11 years. State's attorney, as we call 
it there, for 11 years. We did have knowledge or information bear- 
ing upon the existence of definite crime and rackets here in the city, 
as well, of course, as in other large municipalities. I w^as wondering 
whether in the recent past that has not continued to such a degree that 
you felt very definitely, as a well-informed citizen of the community, 
that there was in existence a definite racket with protection from the 
authorities ? 

Judge Sloane. There is a definite racket. How much the protec- 
tion is, I don't know. The only guess I can make is that since we 
haven't gotten the higher-ups, there must be some protection. That 
is a guess. Please understand. If you were to ask me how I could 
prove it, I couldn't give you one line of proof. But the inference that 
I make is that since I have not been able to get a real higher-np, some- 
how or other he has been able to escape it. 

Senator O'Conor. In what I said, I did not wish to cast any asper- 
sions on Philadelphia as such, or to indicate it is any worse than others. 

Judge Sloane. That is all right. 

Senator O'Conor. I was just trying to get at certain facts. 

Judge, from your knowledge of the very nature of the operation, 
for example, of the numbers racket, which of course, of its essence, 
is essentially different from any other law violation, do you not think 
that it is necessary to have some protection, or that officers must 
either wink at the violations or be indifferent, in order that they can 
flourish and that there can be an operation of a bank such as we do 
understand exists here ? 

Judge Sloane. My flat answer is "Yes." I don't see how it could be 
otherwise, in my own thinking, because why do we get the small ones 
and we don't so far as I know, get any of the big ones, unless they 
don't exist ; and I don't see how they can help but exist. Somebody 
is higher up. How high up, I don't know. I don't think we go to 
the extent, I repeat, of what I read about in New York or some of the 
other places. We are a small city in that respect, too, perhaps. 

Senator O'Conor. Director Rosenberg, at this point, if I might ask 
you this question : Whether you, from your experience of over 10 years 
as the mayor's secretary and as the director, feel that in the lower level 
in the judiciary, for example, under the courts of common pleas and 



18 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

oyer and terminer, there lias been an attitude different from that which 
you think is conducive to the best law enforcement ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. There has been, but our recent figures show that 
better than 80 percent of our cases are held for court, and I feel that 
that is a pretty good average. 

Judge Sloane. It has improved that much. 

INIr. Rosenberg. Yes; it has. Prior to that time, I think it was 
closer to 60 percent. But now, over 80 percent of our cases are held 
for court. 

It may surprise Judge Sloane to know this, but prior to this year. 
Judge, I don't believe that you will find that two people were ever 
sent to jail in the last 5 years. 

Judge Sloane. Really ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Absolutely. They weren't sent to jail. They were 
fined nominal fines; and when I got the figures, that was the thing 
that brought me to the board of judges back in February. 

Senator O'Conor. Director Rosenberg, not questioning the ac- 
curacy of your statement, may it not be that while percentagewise 
that improvement might have been noted, which is, of course, very 
much to be applauded, nevertheless there might still exist, or there 
might have existed in the recent past a situation where, among cer- 
tain of the magistrates, maybe in a relatively few cases percentage- 
wise but might nevertheless represent quite a grave situation in a 
given locality, that there has been an attitude other than that which 
is the best ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. That is true, but I believe in the past year they 
have been afraid to do it. The question has been raised about higher- 
ups. There is no doubt that they exist, absolutely. The small fellow 
on the corner doesn't run his own bank. We know he doesn't, and 
he doesn't write his own numbers. But it is difficult to get a higher-up 
and catch him right in the bank or catch him with numbers. They 
have become very cautious, particularly in the last year. They don't 
carry that paraphernalia with them. We have stopped them on the 
streets any number of times and searched them, and searched the cai^, 
and found nothing on them. 

Senator O'Conor. Have you had information, for example, as to the 
operations of the "Nig" Rosen bank ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. My information is that he does not operate in 
Philadelphia. 

Senator O'Conor. Even if not here physically, whether or not he 
has any connection with operations which are here ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. To the best of my knowledge, he doesn't. 

Senator O'Conor. I don't mean information that you could take into 
court and prove beyond a reasonable doubt, but rather, that which as 
a good, efficient, and vigilant director you would have heard and would 
possibly justify some suspicions on your part. 

Mr. Rosenberg. The information I have Avould indicate the con- 
trary, that he is not here. 

Senator O'Conor. Does he have any affiliates ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. The people that I have confidence in tell me that he 
doesn't. 

Seiiator O'Conor. In connection, for example, with the Ferguson 
demotion — and it was, in fact, a demotion, if not in rank at least it 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 19 

Avas generally considered to be a demotion^ — ^-what ^YOl•k is he now 
doing? 

Mr. Rosp:nberg. He is assigned to headquarters. 

Senator O'Conor. But engaged in what work ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. He hasn't been given a definite assignment. 

Senator O'Coxor. So it is obvious that there is, on your part, a 
feeling that tlie important work with which he has been entrusted 
])reviously should not be assigned to him now ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I felt that way about the vice squad, Senator. 

Senator O'Conor. Specifically, I am taking his case up, that you 
A^ ould not have acted the way you did if you had not had good reason. 
Certainly, you had no prejudice against that man ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Of course not. I hardly know him. 

Senator O'Conor. Director, do you feel that in his case, for example, 
there were connections that he had, or that there were situations 
innnediately under him, that were not given proper attention by the 
authorities? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I couldn't prove it, Senatoi*. 

Senator O'Conor. Had you information that caused you to take 
that summary action ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Not information that could be proved, no. 

Mr. Klein. Did you have any suspicion ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Suspicion of the entire vice squad was pretty wide- 
sjjread. You heard all sorts of fantastic stories. 

Mr, Klein. They were sufficiently strong, as rumors, to warrant 
action on your part ? 

]Mr. Rosenberg. That is right. 

Senator O'Conor. Has there been any betterment since his transfer? 

Mr. Rosenberg. You wouldn't note it that soon. Senator, but I feel 
that we have noted a betterment in the last year. 

If I may point this out, let's take the year 19-16, when there was a 
total of 1,137 lottery arrests. This year, for the first 6 months alone, 
we far surpass that total. 

Senator O'Conor. In the Ferguson case, as will happen in all such 
instances, after a change is made and a man has been demoted and he 
has been taken away, information comes forth that otherwise is not 
obtainable. It probably would come to the director. In other words, 
once he has been taken away from the spot, it would be natural that 
there would be disclosed some things that were existing. 

Mr. Rosenberg. That takes a little time. Senator, because if you 
put a green man into an activity of this sort, it takes him possibly 
months before he })icks up wliat is going on. 

Senator O'Conor. Following the question I asked before with re- 
gard to "Nig" Rosen's part in the situation, have you any informa- 
tion as to the "Nig" Rosen or Weisberg connections? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No. Our information is that they are not in Phila- 
delphia. They operate together. We have that information. Is 
that wliat you meant. Senator O'Conor ? 

Senator O'Conor. Yes. 

JNIr. Rosenberg. Yes. We understand that they are closely affili- 
ated, and have been for years. 

Senator O'Conor. With regard to the extent of their operations, 
even though your information may not be the kind you could take into 



20 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

court and prove, have you any idea that you could give to Senator 
Kefauver and to the committee as to the extent of operations, what 
your best estimate is as to the ramifications ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. In Philadelphia ? 

Senator O'Conor. Yes. 

Mr. Rosenberg. None. 

Senator O'Conor. They were here before ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. That is going back too many years for me to be 
able to discuss. 

Mr. Klein. We have other witnesses on that. 

Senator 0"Conor. There is no other definite information that you 
have which might be of value to the committee in following through 
as to the existence of operations that might tie in this city with other 
cities outside the State, for instance ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No. Our people feel there isn't a close tie-up, 
except possibly with a man named Reginelli, who operates in South 
Jersey and who supposedly has connections with Philadelphia. 

Senator O'Conor. Is your information as to whether that is an 
extensive operation ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. The best information I have is that the tie-up took 
in South Philadelphia. 

Senator O'Conor. Have you any idea as to the volume? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No. That is just the wildest sort of a guess. 

Senator O'Conor. That is all. 

The Chairman. I have one or two questions. 

In the first place. Judge, or Mr. Rosenberg, is the possession of coin 
machines illegal in the State of Pennsylvania, or is it the operation of 
them ? 

Judge Sloane. Slot machines ? That is illegal. 

The Chairman. Possession of them? 

Judge Sloane. Not the possession of them. 

The Chairman. This Keystone distributor here apparently has the 
whole territory for Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Is their operation 
within the law ? 

Judge Sloane. I don't know what their operation is. This is the 
first time I have heard of that name. 

Mr. Rosenberg. You mean pinball machines or slot machines ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Rosenberg. I don't believe you will find many slot machines in 
Philadelphia, Senator. It is illegal, definitely. 

The Chairman. I was asking about the Keystone Panoram Co. 
here in Philadelphia, that has the distributorship for them. Have you 
investigated this Keystone Panoram Co.? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No, we haven't, but the reason we wouldn't be 
brought in that direction is because, I say again, there are practically 
no slot machines in the city of Philadelphia except possibly in some 
Legion jiosts and down at some officers clubs at the navy yard. There 
were in the past. I understand they have since been taken out. You 
won't find many slot machines in Philadelpliia. 

The Chairman. I had understood that some of your police captains 
and what-not have very substantial wealth ; that tliey are able to have 
big homes and motorboats and things of that sort, on a salaiy of 
$5,000 a year? Is that it? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 21 

Mr. Rosenberg. For an inspector, about that. 

The Chairman. $4,500 for a captain, something like that ? How do 
you account for that ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I couldn't account for it. 

The Chairman. Do you think that raises a suspicion about them, 
if they have no other means of income ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Possibly it would, unless they could show where 
they obtained their income. 

The Chairman. Have you gone into the matter of how they got 
their wealth ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No, not to the extent of bringing in their books 
or looking at their records, no. But that sort of story prevails in 
any police department. 

For instance, one case came to me the other day where a man with 
the rank of detective was supposed to live in a luxurious home, but it 
developed that he married a very wealthy girl, and that explains it. 

The Chairman. Yes. Do you have the right to look into the matter 
of where they got their money ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I would question whether we had the right to do 
that. I think if we did that as the continuing policy — - 

The Chairman. How many policemen do you have in the city of 
Philadelphia? 

Mr. Rosenberg. By "policemen," you mean detectives, officers? 

The Chairman. I mean your whole outfit. 

Mr. Rosenberg. I would say close to 5,000. 

The Chairman. I think the general standard is one policeman for 
every 600 population ? Is that it ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Some such figure. 

The Chairman. So, on that basis, you would be not quite up to par? 

Mr. Rosenberg. That is right. 

Might I say, in that regard, that for the first 6 months of this year 
we were operating with fewer patrolmen than we have had in the 
past 50 years in the city of Philadelphia, but that was due to vacancies 
which occurred and the slowness by which civil-service eligibility lists 
were put out. However, that is being corrected, and we are taking 
in new recruits. 

The Chairman. How many policemen do you think you should 
have ? Wliat should your force be ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I would never put a ceiling on that. Senator. 

The Chairman. Does the city of Camden, across the line, cause you 
any difficulty in enforcement? 

Mr. Rosenberg. No; except for the story that we heard, that the 
information for some of these bookmaking establishments had its 
source in Camden. 

The Chairman. Judge, you said that William Braverman was 
recently sent to jail. When was that ? 

Judge Sloane. I would say about 3 weeks ago. I sentenced him to 
6 months to a year and a fine of $250. 

The Chairjnian. He had been arrested and was up seven or eight or 
nine times before ? 

Judge Sloane. Something like that. 

The Chairman. And just received fines of $100? 

Judge Sloane. I don't remember the exact fines, but he got off 
easily. His first arrest was in 1938. 



22 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The pressure there to let him out is because he is suffering from 
multiple sclerosis, which I understand is true, but that a jail sentence 
won't hurt him. 

The Chairman. Did you say nobody was sent to jail, Mr. Director, 
until a year and a half ago ? 

Mr. KosENBEUG. I didn't say nobody. Senator, but I say in the past 
3 or 4 years prior to this latest stiffening of attitude, I don't believe 
that you will find that two people went to jail in all that time. 

The Chairman. When did this stiffening of attitude come about? 

Mr. Rosenberg. In my opinion, it started just before the court 
closed for the summer when Judge Oliver sent a couple of them away. 

When did you close, in May? 

Judge Sloane. No; the criminal courts were open all summer. 

Mr. Rosenberg. I mean the bail court. 

Judge Sloane. About June, I guess. 

Mr. Rosenberg. That was just prior to the time that I put a per- 
sonal drive on to bring about a change of attitude. I say that with 
all kindness to Judge Sloane, wdiose integrity is absolutely un- 
questioned. 

Judge Sloane. That is perfectly all right. 

The Chairman. The stiffening attitude and your drive were about 
when, now? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I started to contact the judges back in February 
of this year, as a result of our statistics, which indicated that nobody 
was going to jail and we were just wasting our time. 

The Chairman. What do you do about all these people that you 
have up for trial? Apparently, according to this report, you have a 
lot of people arrested. Are not your dockets awfully crowded. Judge? 

Judge Sloane. They are crowded. We have what is called the 
criminal committee among the 21. That is made up of a judge from 
each of the courts. 

The Chairman. How^ long does it take to get a fellow to trial now ? 
All these people are out on bond? 

Judge Sloane. Tliey are either out on bond — I guess all of them 
are out on bond. I don't think any of them are not able to raise his 
bail. The dockets are crowded. There is no doubt about that. 

I mentioned the criminal committee. We have been contemplating 
holding a special court for this, or creating another courtroom. 

The Chairman. The trouble is, you see, after an arrest 6 or 8 months 
elapses between the time of the arrest and the trial, and then the pub- 
lic just loses interest. 

Judge Sloane. That is right. 

The Chairman. And nothing happens. 

Judge Sloane. That is right. 

The Chairman. How long is the usual time before you can bring a 
fellow to trial? 

Judge Sloane. It should be 2 or 3 months. 

Tlie Chairman. Wliat is it now? 

Judge Sloane. Some of them are much older. Some of these cases 
that I tried have been a year old. 

Mr. Halley. Are these misdemeanors that are tried by a judge 
v\^ithout a jury? 

Judge Sloane. They can be tried eitlier way. There can be a 
waiver of jury trial under the act of 1925, or he can insist on a jury 
trial. If he insists on it, he has to have it. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE ^3 

Mr. Rosenberg. In most cases, they plead guilty, don't they, in 
many of them? 

Judge Sloane. In many of them. That is better. 

The Chairman, Judge, we have had some information or some 
I'umors about Judge Harr}' S. McDevitt. Is he one of your judges? 

Judge Sloane. He is dead. He died last April. 

The Chairman. Hoav about Patrolman ]\IcDonald, ]Mr. Director? 

Mr. Rosenberg. That was a case which took an unfortunate turn. 
I took a position which I felt I was right in, and I still think I was 
right in it. He was a patrolman; a couple of what we call deputy 
inspectors — and who, in the police parlance, are called ginks — who 
go and see whether the men are doing their job, he was caught and 
made a very unsatisfactory explanation as to what he was doing at 
that place, which was a suspected bookie joint. We suspended him 
and sent him to the police tidal l>oard. He refused to be tried by the 
police trial board, went to the civil-service commission, and was found 
not guilty. 

We were so outraged by the verdict that we transferred him out 
of the motor bandit unit in which he was operating at that time, to 
West Philadelphia. 

In going to West Philadelphia, he came under the command of 
Inspector Murphy, to whom I have referred previously. He made 
an arrest of a bookie on the street while he was off duty, and in uni- 
form. Normall}^ we would encourage that sort of thing, but the sit- 
uation made both the superintendent and myself suspicious. 

Incidentally, before the case came to me, he was suspended by his 
captain. I didn't learn of it until after he had been suspended by 
his captain. We sent the case to the police trial board. Again he 
refused to be tried by the police trial board, which, incidentally, has 
never before happened in the history of the department, but which 
he has a right to do. He went over to the civil-service commission, 
and they fired him. 

Inspector JNIurphy took the view that he was being treated badly, 
and yet, strangely enough, in the preceding case Inspector Murphy 
testified against McDonald. So it was a difference of opihion. I 
Thought that Murphy 

The Chairman. Did McDonald not say that the money was being 
paid to Sergeant Saline ? 

INIr. Rosenberg. He never said it to me or anyone that I know of. 
He said a lot of wild statements which were never proved. I asked 
Inspector Murphy about him, and I said to him, "Do you think, in 
view of this man's record, that we are better off with him or without 
him on the police force?" That was the view I took. Inspector Mur- 
phy definitely said that we are much better off without him on the 
police force. Yet he took a peculiar twist in this case, and I feel he is 
dead wrong. I think w^e are better off without McDonald, in spite 
of the clamor that was raised. I felt the newspapere made a martyr 
out of a man who didn't deserve to be made a martyr out of. 

The Chairman. How about Captain Strange ? Did he try to impli- 
cate him, too ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Not that I ever heard of. Captain Strange was not 
his superior officer at the time. He was in the previous unit where 
we transferred him out of. In my opinion, that was much ado about 
nothing. 



24 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Any further questions, Senator? 

Senator O'Conor. I would like to ask, in regard to Superintendent 
Richardson, just what is your feeling as to his situation? 

Mr. Rosenberg. I have nothing I can prove against Superintend- 
ent Richardson, except I feel I don't have the confidence I should 
have in the man who is the head of the detective division. 

Senator O'Conor. His position is a pivotal one ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. It isn't any more, Senator. I have more or less 
operated the detective division under the direction of Inspector Doyle. 

Senator O'Conor. What is his nominal position ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. Inspector of detectives, second in command. 

Senator O'Conor. That, in itself, is not a very fortunate situation ; 
that the man who is at the head of it, the superintendent, who ought 
to be the lead, is more or less relegated to an inferior place, and the 
actual command of it is in the hands of the second official. 

Mr. Rosenberg. That isn't a healthy thing, but I couldn't prove 
anything against Superintendent Richardson. 

Senator O'Conor. But apparently, the information you think is at 
least reliable enough to cause you to take his subordinate as the one to 
be the better trusted ? 

Mr. Rosenberg. That is right. 

The Chairman. All right, anything else ? 

Mr. Klein. That is all. Thank you very much, Judge. 

Mr. Rosenberg. May I say this off the record ? 

The Chairman. Yes ; off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Klein. About 10 days or 2 weeks ago, I wrote to Attorney 
General Margiotti and told him that the former special deputy attor- 
ney general indicated that in connection with the case of former Chief 
Magistrate O'Malley, he had turned over his records and files to the 
attorney general's office, and I asked Mr. Margiotti wliether he would 
give us access to those files ; that Mr. Eldredge, the deputy attorney 
general, had told us there was information in those files that would 
undoubtedly be of interest to the committee. 

I said to him in a letter, it would be very helpful to us if we had 
access to those files, and I didn't think it necessary to serve a subpena 
for them ; and if, in the interest of expedition, he would let me know, 
I would be very glad to send someone up to confer with him about the 
matter. I have yet to receive an answer. 

Mr. Halley. We sent a man to Harrisburg yesterday. 

Mr. Klein. For the other information, yes, sir. 

The Chairman. They refused to give him the information ? 

Mr. Halley. They said first they wouldn't give him the informa- 
tion. The man we are talking about is the secretary of the State board 
of pardons. He said on advice of the attorney general, he didn't think 
he could give the information, but he would be here this morning to 
discuss it with the committee. 

This morning, instead of being here, he telephoned and said that 
the attorney general of the State of Pennsylvania had advised him 
not even to come here, and that the attorney general didn't want to 
do any more about the matter until the attorney general had con- 
ferred with the State board of pardons and until the attorney general 
had checked certain constitutional questions which he thinks might 
affect the necessity of producing these papers. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 25 

I believe, under the cireimistances, the suggestion made by Senator 
O'Conor should be followed ; that we should say to the attorney gen- 
eral, send a message to him innuediately by telephone, by Assistant 
Counsel Rice, that the committee feels that the message must be wrong; 
that we couldn't possibly understand that the attorney general of 
the State of Pennsylvania would not want the secretary of the State 
board of pardons at least to appear here and talk to the committee 
as cooperatively as possible; and that, in fact, we can't understand 
that the attorney general himself would not want to do that; and 
we ask that they both apjDear here as soon as possible, as a matter 
of i-equest by this committee. 

The Chairman. I would say that they either get the information 
here that we want, or appear here. 

Senator O'Conor. If I may modify that just a little in the last 
respect, my suggestion, was not that they appear themselves. I rather 
thought that if Mr. Margiotti was contacted and it was made plain — 
although I think everything that has been done is very proper in all 
respects, nevertheless I am assuming possibly it was not brought to 
his attention in the v»'ay it sliould have been — if, through the com- 
mittee counsel here, he would be contacted, he might very well give 
the word to bring the information down rather than come himself. 

Mr. Halley. Can we go to the second step, that if he, as he may 
be expected from what we hear, begins to talk at some length about 
the law, we then say that in that case the committee would very much 
appreciate his coming down and talking to the committee about it? 

The Chairman. Yes; if he refuses to comply with the first request, 
that he instruct the secretary of state, or somebody, to come down here 
and give us the information, then I think we ought to invite him 
down. 

Mr. Halley. You see, when this committee comes to a city for 2 
days of hearings, and the committee has a very full and busy sched- 
ule, the one thing the committee really needs is the cooperation of 
local officials. If the attorney general of the State has to think for a 
week about whether he will cooperate, it amounts to noncooperation, 
because by the time the week is over, the committee members are pur- 
suing other duties in other places. 

Senator O'Conor. The onlv point I had was not a dissent in any 
sense. It was just a little different method of procedure. I felt that, 
as the attorney general of the State, we had to assume he would be 
willing to do it upon proper request. I hesitated to put him in the 
position of being ordered down here. 

Mr. Halley. That is thoroughly right. 

The Chairman. I think we have it understood. 

Wliat do you think about confirming the telephone conversation 
with a telegram, setting forth the essential facts ? 

Mr. Rice. I understand Margiotti is at the Bellevue. 

Mr. Fay. He is going to be there at 11 o'clock this morning. 

The Chairman. Let us get in touch with him along these lines: 
That we want his cooperation, and hope he will instruct the people 
to come on down. If he does not, we would appreciate his coming 
orer here and discussing the matter with us. We want this informa- 
tion, and we expect his cooperation in getting it to us. 

Mr. Rice. I think it amounts to ignoring the subpena. 

The Chairman. Has he a subpena ? 



26 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. There was a subpena issued. He was told there was one 
waiting for him ; that is, the secretary of the board. He said he pre- 
ferred not to have it served on him by a marshal ; that he would appear 
here this mornino;. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

The Chairman. Do you both solemnly swear the testimony you will 
give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Richardson. I do. 

Mr. Kelly. I do. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Klein. 

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE E. RICHAEDSON, ASSISTANT SUPER- 
INTENDENT OF POLICE IN CHARGE OF DETECTIVES, AND JOHN 
J. KELLY, PATROLMAN, ACTING DETECTIVE 

Mr. Klein. Superintendent Richardson, what is your full name ? 

Mr. Richardson. George F. Richardson. 

Mr. Klein. And your home address? 

Mr. Richardson. 1329 Tyson Street. 

Mr. Klein. And your rank in the Philadelphia Police Department? 

Mr, Richardson. Assistant superintendent of police, in charge of 
detectives. 

Mr. Klein. How long have you held that rank ? 

Mr. Richardson. Ten years. 

Mr. Klein. What was your rank before that ? 

Mr. Richardson. Just a moment. Assistant superintendent since 
1947. Previous to that I was inspector from 1940, 

Mr. Klein. How long have you been in the Philadelphia Police 
Department ? 

Mr. Richardson. This is my thirty-fourth year, 

Mr, Klein. I take it that over your long experience, you are thor- 
oughly 

The Chairman. Let us get Mr. Kelly identified. 

Mr. Klein. I beg pardon. 

Mr. Kelly, will you give us your full name? 

Mr. Kelly. John J, Kelly. 

Mr, Klein. Your home address? 

Mr. Kelly. 1541 Wynsam Street, Philadelphia. 

Mr. Klein. Your rank? 

Mr. Kelly. Patrolman, acting detective. 

Mr. Klein. You are associated with Superintendent Richardson 
in his office? 

Mr. Kelly. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Superintendent, over these many years you have be- 
come familiar with the gambling set-up in Philadelphia, I take it? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. Will you tell the committee, in your own way, what you 
know about it? 

Mr. Richardson. I haven't been assigned to gambling. The last 
time, I think, was about 1942, or before that. I executed a few raids 
here in Philadelphia and over in Camden, and one or two since that 
time. I would say it would be about 3 years ago. I made a few 
arrests. 



^ ill icmv i|j±iia, tlJH.1 >JVd 111 V^clim_lCll, tlllU. IJllC «. 

I would say it would be about 3 years ago. 
I think in 1947, wasn't it, John? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 27 

Mr. Kelly. 1947 and 1948, 1 think. 

Mr. Richardson. Yes ; at 810 Walnut Street. We entered the prem- 
ises there and got a party of 10 men around a table, telephones, loud- 
speaker coming in with the results of the races. AVe arrested them 
and had them down at the court, and they were fined a large sum of 
money. 

Mr. Klein. Who were they? 

Mr. Richardson. Samuel Lit, John Koste 

Mr. Klein. K-o-s-t-e? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes, John Koste. And several others, three or 
four others there. A fellow by the name of Cohen. I can't recall just 
offhand now. 

The Chairman. This is in 1948 ? 
Mr. Richardson. Yes, about 1948. 

Mr. Klein. Superintendent, you have made a long study of certain 
characters who have notorious criminal records in this and other areas. 
Let me get down to cases. Do you know Harry Stromberg, alias "Nig" 
Rosen ? 

Mr. Richardson. I do. 

Mr. Klein. How long have you known him? 
INIr. Richardson. About 20 years or more. 
Mr. Klein. Is he a Philadelphian ? 
Mr. Richardson. No. 
]Vf " Klein. Where does he hail from ? 

Mr. Richardson. The last time I knew, he was on Central Park 
West, in New York, in one of them apartments. I just can't recall 
offhand what apartment house it was. 

Mr. Klein. Has Rosen any record of criminal operation in Phil- 
adelphia? 

Mr. Richardson. Previous to 1934, Rosen and the mob here had 
what they called the edge-off in the numbers racket. Their head- 
quarters was out beyond Sixty-ninth Street. 
The ChxMrman. Previous to when ? 
Mr. Richardson. 1934. 
JNIr. Halley. "VYliat is the edge-off ? 

Mr. Richardson. That would be, in a numbers racket, where you 
would have a dollar or maybe a $5 bet, they would take all of the larger 
bets to protect the bank. In other words, it was cutting in on a piece 
of business in the numbers racket. 

Mr. Halley. He had a man named Willie Weisberg working for 
him ? 

Mr. Richardson. Willie Weisberg was chauffeur for Mugsy Taylor 
at that time. He was probably an errand boy for "Nig" Rosen. 
Mr. Halley. Is Weisberg still in Philadelphia? 
Mr. Richardson. He lives at apartment 4-B, the Wyngate Court 
Apartments at Fiftieth and Spruce. 

Mr. Halley. What are Weisberg's activities today? 
Mr. Richardson. I don't know of any activities that Weisberg is in 
today, any other than going to Florida and over to New York a lot. 
I don't know of any particular thing he is doing just now, because I 
haven't seen him in the last 10 years or so, I guess, 8 or 10 years. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether, up to that time, he was in the 
numbers racket here in Philadelphia^ 



28 ORGAISriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. EiCHARDSON. No ; I never knew liim, but I knew him to be asso- 
ciated with "Nig" and Cappy Hoffman and Johnny Murphy and 
"Nig" Eosen. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Samuel Hoffman ? 

Mr. Richardson. I do. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat is his business now ? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't know what his business is, but he is asso- 
ciated with Weisberg, "Nig" Rosen, Mugsy Taylor. 

Mr. Halley. Do the police keep an eye on these people ? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes ; whenever they are around here. They have 
not been around here for a long while, that is, in any public place. 
They probably would be out at Sixtieth and Spruce where they con- 
gregate in a drug store ; from the information I gather that is where 
they make their immediate headquarters. 

The Chairman. What is Sixtieth and Spruce? 

Mr. Richardson. That is on the southeast corner of Sixtieth and 
Spruce, a drug store. 

Mr. Halley. Has Hoffman anything to do with the numbers racket 
today ? 

Mr. Richardson. Not to my personal knowledge. I haven't had 
occasion to look into him lately. 

Mr. Halley. Did you recently have occasion to write to somebody 
and say that Weisberg and Hoffman are the chief local lieutenants 
of "Nig" Rosen? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. To whom did you write, and when, and under what 
circumstances? 

Mr. Richardson. I wrote to a sheriff down in Florida, Dan Sullivan. 

Mr. Halley. The head of the Crime Commission of Miami? 

Mr. Richardson. He asked us for some information on him, and 
we gave all the information available, the same information I gave 
to this committee here. 

Mr. Halley. At that time, it was November 1949, wasn't it? 

Mr. Richardson. I believe it was. John, here, did all the corre- 
sponding with him. 

Mr. Halley. At that time, you said that Weisberg and Hoffman are 
the chief local lieutenants of Rosen ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You said that Rosen, who is now a native of New 
York, came to Philadelphia during the prohibition era ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. And established himself as the kingpin of gangsters, 
bootleggers, and rumrunners? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. That w^asn't until 1934 that he was around 
here. In 1934, in the company of my partner, Jimmie Ryan, we 
raided a house out there half a block from the police headquarters. 

Mr. Halley. Out where ? 

Mr. Richardson. In Delaware County. 

Mr. Halley. Where was this? 

Mr. Richardson. Just a half block the other side of the headquar- 
ters out there, Upper Darby, below Garrett Road. 

Mr. Halley. At Upper Darby ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. What happened ? 



ORGANIZED' CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 29 

Mr. Richardson. As we entered the basement of this private house, 
we got five or six or maybe seven men there operating adding ma- 
chines, and they had a couple of bushel baskets full of numbers slips. 
We arrested them and tried them in the Delaware County courts, and 
they all pleaded guilty and were convicted. 

The Chairman. When was that ? 

Mr. Richardson. In 1934. 

Mr. Hallet. What kind of sentence did Rosen get ? 

Mr. Richardson. Rosen wasn't in there, but it was their head- 
quarters. 

Mr. Halley. Rosen then moved to New York, is that right? 

Mr. Richardson. During the probe there, there was a probe of the 
numbers racket by the lawyers of the bar association, and he fled this 
jurisdiction. We brought him back from New York. As a result 
of our information, he was arrested in New York, and we went there 
and brought him back here. 

Mr. Halley. Was he tried ? 

Mr. Richardson, He was tried here, and acquitted. 

Mr. Halley. But he then moved to New York and stayed there, is 
that right? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. He hasn't been around here, to 
my knowledge — maybe he might get in and out. We hear he gets 
in and out during the night ; that he comes over here and sees different 
people. 

Mr. Halley. Doesn't he live at 211 Central Park West ? Is that the 
address? 

Mr. Richardson. I know the place very well. I think it is the 
Century Court Apartments. 

Mr. Kelly. The Century Apartments. 

Mr. Richardson. Central Park West. 

Mr. Halley. Around Sixtieth Street? 

Mr. Richardson. Sixtieth or Sixty-sixth, I don't know which. 

Mr. Halley. You wrote to Sullivan that although Rosen went to 
New York, he retained control of the local mob and personally di- 
rected its activities through Willie Weisberg, isn't that right? 

]Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You were telling him the truth when you wrote to 
Sullivan? 

Mr. Richardson. I believe it to be the truth, from my knowledge of 
the outfit. 

Mr. Halley. Then you said in your letter to Sullivan last November : 

Rosen has connections with the underworld throughout the entire Nation. 
So far as the local mob is concerned, he is their undisputed leader and is com- 
monly known as "The Mahoff." 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Is that right? 

Mr. RicHAiiDsoN. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. In your job, even though, as you testified a little while 
ago, you have nothing directly to do with gambling today, you get 
to know the score ? 

Mr. Richardson. I was in the detective bureau up until last No- 
vember. I was taken sick, and when I went back they put another 
man in charge. 

68958— 51— pt. 11 3 



30 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. But a good police officer, who lias been on the force for 
34 years, knows what goes on in his city. And you knew what you 
were talking about ? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes; I knew what I was talking about when I 
wrote that letter. 

The Chairman. That is the same thing he wrote the committee a 
couple of months ago. 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You said : 

Among Rosen's followers, his word is law, and an unfortunate accident is 
likely to befall any member who flouts his authority. 

That is the fact ? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes 

Mr. Halley. In New York, he is operating a dress company ? 

Mr. RicHiVRDSoN. The Dearest Miss Dress, 245 West Thirty-fifth 
Street. 

Mr. Halley. He has factories throughout the eastern part of the 
country ? 

Mr. Richardson. I believe they have a factory up around Scranton 
someplace. 

Mr. Halley. He has strong union and labor connections ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is what we learn from the underworld, from 
people we interrogate. We learn different things that he is connected 
with. 

Mr. Halley. Is he connected with Louis Greenberg up around 
Scranton ; do you know ? 

Mr. Richardson. I wouldn't know that. Counselor. I wouldn't know 
who he is connected with. I think they have some kind of manufac- 
turing plant up there making dresses. 

Mr. Halley. In the mid thirties, I think you wrote that he seized 
control of the Maryland Athletic Club, just outside of Washington, 
D. C? 

Mr. Richardson. Around 1934; yes. 

Mr. Halley. What did he do about Jimmie LaFontaine, who then 
ran it? 

Mr. Richardson. I think there was a couple of other partners in 
there. Of course, I don't have direct knowledge; but, from hearsay, 
they went down there and killed one or two persons. As a result of 
killing an innocent man who was a newspaperman, who had some 
three or four children — there was an attorney sitting at his window 
and he saw this man who killed him, who happened to be Sammy 
Harris from Philadelphia here, a gunman. 

Mr. Halley. Did they convict Harris ? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. ]\ly partner arrested him and sent him to 
Washington, and he was convicted and sentenced to the electric chair. 
Then his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment. 

Mr. Halley. Did he talk or implicate others ? 

Mr. Richardson. No; I don't think at that time he talked, but I 
learned later that the car he used was sold. Who it was sold to — it 
was sold to somebody who had a farm or something, and they later 
found the shotgun, or whatever was used, in a trap in the car. It wa& 
supposed to be the car he used. 

Mr. Halley. Wlio did the car belong to ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 31 

Mr. KiCHARDSON. I don't know, at that time. The Washington au- 
thorities handled the whole case. I had nothing to do with it. 

Mr. Halley. After they muscled into the Maryland Athletic Clnb, 
did Mngsy Taylor go down there to run the place for "Nig" Kosen? 

Mr. Richardson. There was a fellow by the name of Whitey Price 
from Philadelphia, who just died recently. He was the manager 
of that thing. Maybe 20 or 30 years ago he used to be an operator of 
crap games around here. 

I^Ir. Halley. I thought you wrote in your letter that Mugsy Taylor 
went down to "front" for "Nig" Rosen. 

Mr. Richardson. No, I don't think I wrote that he "fronted'' for 
"Nig" Rosen. I understood thafe Mugsy Taylor was a partner in it, 
him and "Nig" Rosen. 

Mr. Halley. Here is what you wrote ; let's see if you remember it : 

Rosen is fronted foi- in this establishment by one Herman (alias Mugsy) 
Taylor, local fight promoter who has run gambling houses all his life. 

Mr. Richardson. My information is a little better than that. From 
my information, he is a partner of "Nig'' Rosen. 

Mr. Halley. He did go down there in this Maryland Athletic Club 
situation? 

Mr. Richardson. Counselor, I don't have any knowledge of him 
going down there, but I do have knowledge of him having a piece 
of it. 

Mr. Halley. Of the Maryland Club? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. If he had a piece of it, he had a piece of it on behalf 
of Rosen and himself ; is that the point ? 

Mr. Richardson. I assumed that the activities that they conducted 
down there in killing a couple of people down there, one that I know 
of, this newspaperman — I assumed that, as a result of that, both of 
these guys muscled in on Fontaine. 

Mr. Halley. Then you said "Rosen still" — I think you didn't use 
the word "still," but you used the present tense. You said : 

Rosen controls a large part of the gambling, numbers lotteries, and horse and 
sports betting in the Philadelphia area, and, according to our information, in 
certain parts of northeastern New Jersey, New York, and near New York City. 
For many years he has been closely associated with Meyer Lansky of New York 
City, and he is believed to have a piece of the Lansky interests in the vicinity 
of Miami Beach, Fla., and the West, particularly at Las "Vegas, Nev. 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. All that is true? Did you ever catch Lansky here? 

Mr. Richardson. No; I never had him here. 

Mr. Halley. You know that Lansky is an associate of Lucky 
Luciano; do you not? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And Frank Costello? 

JVIr. Richardson. That is the knowledge of the police department. 
"Nig" Rosen and all 

Mr. Halley. One of the top Nation-wide syndicates, you might 
say. You feel that Rosen's connection is through Lansky? 

Mr. Richardson. Well, yes. I don't say it is through Lansky, but 
he is in the outfit. From what knowledge I gather, Lansky is a brother- 
in-law to Rosen. 



32 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 

Mr. Halley. Are they related? 

Mr. Richardson. That is the information I get. 

Mr. Hallet. When Lansky went out to Las Vegas with Bugsy 
Siegel, was Rosen in that, too ? 

Mr. Richardson. Years ago, him and Bugsy used to be partners; 
it was "Meyer and Bugsy," you see. They used to be a team, before 
they branched out in bigger fields. I don't know what happened to 
them. 

Mr. Halley. You mean Meyer Lansky and Bugsy? 

INIr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Where were they partners ; in Los Angeles ? 

Mr. Richardson. They were always known to be partners — Bugsy 
and Meyer. Wherever you heard of one, you heard of the other — 
Bugsy and Meyer. 

Mr. Halley. Did Meyer show up in Philadelphia very often ? 

Mr. Richardson. No; we never had any knowledge of him, but 
he was connected here with the Wemby Juke Box Corp. in some ca- 
pacity. Wasn't he vice president? 

Mr. Kelly. Yes. 

The Chairman. Let us get that, now. Meyer Lansky was con- 
nected here with 

Mr. Richardson. Wemby Distributing Co., distributors of juke 
boxes. 

The Chairman. "V\^ien was that ? 

Mr. Richardson. Around 1945, 1946, and 1947. 

Mr. Halley. Don't you find almost invariably that the juke-box 
and pinball companies are tied very closely into the rackets ? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. I find the juke-box companies — from our 
investigation, we learn that they are tied up with it. 

Mr. Halley. Whoever controls that business is your top batch of 
racketeers in any city ; isn't it ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You said in your letter that "Rosen is also connected 
with the Capone mob of Chicago and various other mobs of New York 
City, including the Fischettis and Longie Zwillman gangs." Have 
you got some detail on that ? 

Mr. Richardson. No ; I don't have any details, only that you hear 
from different coppers all around the country, the different police we 
contact. 

Mr. Halley. From what little talk we have been doing, you have 
a world of information. 

Mr. Richardson. I have chased them for 20 years. I don't let them 
around here. They are never around here with my knowledge. If I 
find them here, I try to put them out of business. 

Mr. Halley. How do you tie in Rosen with Fischetti in Chicago? 
The tie-in with Lansky is interesting. You say he is his brother-in- 
law, and so on. 

Mr. Richardson. It is all the same outfit. From what I gather, it 
is all the same outfit. 

Mr. Halley. Lansky and Fischetti and Costello and that group 
are very tightly knit ; is that right ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. Wherever there is gambling or 
anything going, they will move in. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 33 

Mr. Hallet. They move in j^retty mucli together ? 

Mr. KiciiAKDSON. Yes; they do, 

Mr. Halley. And anybody who starts pLi^ang on his own, the way 
Biiosy did in Nevada, is eliminated ; is that right ? 

Mr. Richardson. I guess Bugsy started in for himself a little too 
much, from what I can understand. He was in somebody's way for 
a promotion. 

Mr. Halley. He couldn't get along with INIickey Cohen, among 
other things ; is that right ? 

Mr. Richardson. I didn't know anything about him and IMickey 
Cohen. 

Mr. Halley. That is pretty far from Philadelphia. 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. I don't know much about that guy. 

INIr, Halley. Would you say that Rosen's connection "with the 
Fischetti group is through Meyer Lansky ? 

Mr. Richardson. Costello and all that outfit. They are all one. 

Mr. Halley. Do you think that Lansky is his tie-in, or does he 
operate independently ? 

Mr. Richardson. Sure. He is in the outfit. 

Mr. Halley. My point is, did Rosen have independent connections, 
or did he work through Lansky ? 

Mr. Richardson. He is right in the outfit. He is one of the big 
Mahoffs in there. 

Mr. Halley. Rosen himself ? 

Mr. Richardson. With branches out in different cities, I guess. 

Mr. Halley. He operated at the Sands Hotel in Miami ? 

Mr. Richardson. Sands Hotel? I don't know whether he oper- 
ated out of the Sands. That is where they hung out mostly, the 
Sands Hotel. They all stopped there, Mugsy Taylor and AVillie Weis- 
berg. I acquainted Mr. Sullivan down there about Rosen building 
a home down on Pine Drive ; wasn't it ? 

Mr. Kelly. Pine Tree Drive, I believe. 

Mr. Richardson. I gave him all the information we have on him. 

Mr. Halley. Pine Tree Drive ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. What are they doing in Atlantic City ? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't know what they are doing in Atlantic 
City. Mugsy Taylor lives at 4712 Atlantic Avenue. He had a big 
home there. 

Mr. Halley. I was in Atlantic City this summer, it was quit^ ob- 
vious that bookmaking was w^ide open. There was a man standing 
in front of my hotel taking the bets, and seA'eral clubs Avere open. In 
fact, an item appeared in the Atlantic City paper the third day I was 
there, right on the front page, saying that, for some mysterious rea- 
son that nobody coidd account for, the bookmaking and gambling 
joints had all closed up the night before. Are those operations in 
Atlantic City tied into the Philadelphia crowd ? 

Mr. Richardson. Just through rumors. That is all I could give 
you ; that is all. I haven't been around Atlantic City for 3'ears. 

Mr. Halley. How does Reginelli tie in? 

Mr. Richardson. He is in Camden. 

Mr. Halley. Does he have much to do with Philadelphia rackets? 

Mr. Richardson. Not to my knowledge. He used to be here years 
ago. 



34 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 

Mr. Hallet. Does lie work with Rosen ? 

Mr. Richardson. No. He and Rosen and a couple of others were 
picked up over in Camden several years ago. 

Mr. Halley. How about Mugsy Taylor; is he active m Atlantic 

City? ,...-. n 

Mr. RicHxVEDSON. I imagine he is, since he has his residence there. 

Mr. Halley. And he spends a lot of his time there ? 

]Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Can you say whether the numbers racket is still active 
in this city today ? 

Mr. Richardson. Oh, yes, it is active here. There is an arrest made 
every day. 

Mr. Halley. Would you say it has decreased any ? 

Mr. Richardson. Oh, yes. I say it has decreased. A lot of peo- 
ple went out of business due to arrests and sending different people to 
jail. 

Mr. Halley. There have been persistent rumors that the people in 
the numbers racket pay off policemen. Have you heard such rumors? 

Mr. Richardson. No, I never heard any rimiors. 

Mr. Halley. You never heard any ? 

]VIr. Richardson. No. 

Mr. Halley. At least one fellow, a policeman named McDonald, 
said so publicly, didn't he ? 

Mr. Richardson. Well, I don't know anything about any policeman 
taking any money. If he had that kind of knowledge, he ought to 
give it to the proper authorities. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't he? Don't you know? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't think he did. 

Mr. Halley. You remember the McDonald case ? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't know the guy. 

Mr. Halley. You remember the case ? 

Mr. Richardson. I know of the case ; yes. He brought a prisoner 
in, T understand, and slated him, and the argument developed that he 
didn't have all the evidence there at the house sergeant's which you 
are supposed to do when an officer makes an arrest. Outside of that, 
I know nothing about it. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't he say that he had been offered a bribe ? 

Mr. Richardson. No. I read of that in the newspapers ; yes, from 
reading in the newspapers, somebody offered him a bribe. 

Mr. Halley. Is that the only case you have ever heard of any effort 
being made to "fix" any policeman in this city ? 

Mr. Richardson. Oh, you hear of different cases where somebody 
accuses a cop, but wlien the proper times comes they are not around. 

Mr. Halley. In all honesty, mustn't you say that at least at the 
very lowest levels in your police department, you are bound to have 
some dishonest cops? 

Mr. Richardson. I think we have a pretty good police department 
here, counselor. 

Mr. Halley. Wouldn't you say just on the 

Mr. Richardson. I wouldn't say any cops are taking any dough off 
anybody; no. 

Mr. Halley. You think that would be impossible? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't say it would be impossible, but I don't 
know of anybody ever taking anything. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 35 

Mr. Halley. You don't think it happens? 

Mr. RicHARDSOx. No; I don't think it happens. 

Mr. Hallet. Hoay do these 

Mr. EiciiAEDSo^f. How could one cop or two cops straighten a guy 
out wlien you have 5,000 men around ? Everybody has the same op- 
portunity to knock a guy down or a numbers bank. 

Mr. Halley. Of course, you have hit the nail right on the head. 
That is what the rumors are, that it is not one or two cops, but that 
the cops are operating in much more substantial numbers. 

Mr. KiCHARDSON. How would a cop give anybody protection ? 

Mr. Halley. How can a nmnbers racket operate without a l)ay- 
off for protection ? 

Mr. Richardson. They can't operate. 

Mr. Halley. But they do. 

]Mr. Richardson. They may operate on the sneak. 

]Mr. Halley. You can't operate on the sneak when you are collecting 
from literally tens of thousands of people, nickels and pennies. 

Mr. Richardson. I don't know of any banks around. I haven't 
bothered with it. Any time that I bother with it, I walk right in 
and clean it right out. 

Mr. Halley. I understand it is not your responsibility today, but 
you seem to be a very well informed man. I am a bit surprised at your 
testimony. I just arrived in Philadelphia last night, and I am just 
asking you about rumors I have heard. I have no charges to make. 

Mr. Richardson. You hear those rumors. Counselor, but I don't 
put any stock in them unless the guy stands up and has some real 
evidence on a man. 

Mr. Halley. McDonald stood up, and it seems to me that the book 
got thrown at him for every indiscretion he ever committed. 

Mr. Richardson. I don't know anything about that case, but that 
is between McDonald. I don't know anything about him. I never 
saw the man. 

Mr. Halley. In all the time you have been on the force, did any 
other cop, to your knowledge, ever say that somebody had tried to pay 
him off in connection with the numbers racket ? 

Mr. Richardson. Not to my knowledge ; no. Nobody ever came to 
me and told me anybody tried to give them any money. 

Of course, that is the uniformed department. I am not in the uni- 
formed department. I don't hear that kind of thing. 

Mr. Halley. Do you think the numbers racket would exist without 
the people who run it trying to pay off cops? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't know" anything about whether they are 
trying to pay them off. I don't know anybody they ever paid off. 

Mr. Halley. Do you think, aside from your knowing about it, 
that 

Mr. Richardson. I think they get enough pinches here. I think 
the cops are doing a pretty good job with them. 

Mr. Halley. The number of pinches is increasing, is it not ? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes ; I believe it is. 

Mr. Halley. So if the cops are really trying their hardest, you 
must say the numbers racket is increasing, that there are more people 
around to pinch ? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't know if it has increased. I think a lot of 
them are getting out of it. It is a little too tough for them. 



36 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Hallet. If the cops are doing their job, why should there be 
more pinches ? You would expect it to go down if they were pinching 
these people and driving them out of business. 

Mr. Richardson. I think they are doing better work. 

Mr. Hallet. In the past, would you say they weren't pinching as 
many as they should have? 

Mr. Richardson. I wouldn't know that. I don't look at the record 
of the uniformed department. 

Mr. Halley. How about the detective force ? 

Mr. Richardson. The detective bureau has done a good job in the 
city since I have been in charge of it, 10 years. 

Mr. Halley. When were you in charge of it? 

Mr. Richardson. Since 1940 until last November 1949. 

Mr. Halley. During that time, were arrests made regularly? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes ; good arrests were made. 

Mr. Halley. Since last Noveml^er 

Mr. Richardson. Any situation that ever developed here in Phila- 
delphia, we were pretty lucky in cleaning it all up. 

Mr. Halley. Since last November, has the number of arrests by 
the detective force gone up or down ? 

Mr. Richardson. They are doing very well with it. 

Mr. Halley. It has gone up a bit, hasn't it? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes ; it has. 

Mr. Halley. That must mean that the numbers racket has in- 
creased. 

Mr. Richardson. We are not making the arrests on numbers. Ours 
is all crime, larcenies, murders. 

Mr. Halley. Don't you have anything to do with numbers ? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't have anything to do with it. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't in the 10 years you were head of the depart- 
ment ? 

Mr, Richardson. I did in 1947 and 1948. I arrested Jimmie Single- 
ton, I arrested an outfit here at 810 Walnut Street, and another one 
out in West Philadelphia. 

Mr. Kelly. Fifty-third and Springfield. 

Mr. Richardson. Fifty-third and Springfield. I think I conducted 
four or five raids, and all the men were convicted. 

Mr. Halley. Including Singleton? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. How large an operation was Singleton's? 

Mr. Richardson. At that time, when we arrested him at Passaic 
Avenue and Wharton Street, we arrested him in a car with another 
man, and the coppers got quite a few numbers slips. 

Mr. Halley. Is he a large operator ? 

Mr. Richardson. To my knowledge, he is. 

Mr. Halley. Does he have any gang connections, or is he all by 
himself? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't think he has any gang connections. 

Mr. Halley. Is territory allocated among the policy books in 
Philadelphia? 

Mr. Richardson. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. How do they avoid gang wars? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't know of any gang wars. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 37 

Mr. Halley. If tlie}^ don't allocate territory, you would think there 
would be disputes. 

Mr. KiCPiARDSON. I don't know of any gang wars. I don't know 
of any organized gang here in Philadelphia. They never had a chance 
to settle here. 

Mr. Halley. Don't these people ever argue among themselves about 
territory ? 

Mr. Richardson. They may get into personal arguments, but so 
far as gangs taking over here and taking over there, I don't have 
any knowledge of it. If I did, I would be right into it. 

Mr. Halley. You don't think there is any allocation of territory 
among the various gangs ? 

Mr. EicHARDSON". I do not. 

Mr. Halley. You don't think Singleton gets a certain area in which 
he operates ? 

Mr. Richardson. No. 

Mr. Halley. And another fellow gets another area, and they keep 
out of each other's way ? 

Mr. Richardson. I never heard of anything like that, never. 
Nobody ever had it here in Philadelphia, certain territories or certain 
privileges. 

Mr. Halley. You would be sure that did not exist ? 

Mr. Richardson. Especially this mob you are speaking about. 
They never anchored around here. 

Mr. Halley. Which mob are you speaking of ? 

Mr. Richardson. Rosen, Weisberg, Cappy Hoffman. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't you say in your letter, both to the committee 
and to Mr. Sullivan, that Rosen was still operating, and that he is 
the undisputed leader of the mob ? 

Mr. Richardson. If there is anything around, he will be into it, 
but I don't know of him being actively in any certain bank. 

Mr. Halley. You weren't just writing fiction in this letter. You 
say, "if there is anything around." There must be something around 
when you say, "He is the undisputed leader of the local mob." 

Mr. Richardson. He is. 

Mr. Halley. You write, "Among his followers his word is law, and 
an unfortunate accident is likely to befall any member who flouts 
his authority." 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. PIalley. Over what does he exercise authority ; the distribution 
of territory in the numbers racket, for instance ? 

Mr. Richardson. No ; I don't think so ; "muscling in." 

Mr. Halley. "Muscling in" on what ? 

Mr. Richardson. A piece of anybody's business. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat kind of business are you talking about? 

Mr. Richardson. The numbers business, horse-racing business, 
wherever they can get their nose in. 

Mr. Halley. Let's take the numbers business, for instance, here 
in Philadelphia. Did you think, at the time you wrote this letter, 
when you said that among his followers his word is law, he settles 
disputes in the numbers rackets? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. So, if Jimmie Singleton wanted to book policy out- 
side of a certain area, a dispute would arise ; is that right 1 



38 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 

Mr. Richardson. I don't think it would arise with him._ 

Mr. Halley. Suppose I was in the next block and I didn't want 
Singleton in there. Would "Nig" Rosen settle that dispute? 

Mr. Richardson. No ; I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. Then let's get back to what you mean when you say 
that this fellow Rosen is the undisputed leader and settles disputes. 
Wliat kind of disputes does he settle, in what business? 

Mr. Richardson. In the mob there. 

Mr. Halley. You are not talking about their fighting over who 
gets the next drink. What are they fighting about? What are these 
disputes about? 

Mr. Richardson. I didn't know of them having any disputes. He 
is just the recognized leader of the outfit. 

Mr. Halley. What is there to lead ? You say he is the recognized 
leader, but you say there is no crime, no mob activity, and nothing to 
lead. It doesn't make sense. Inspector. 

Mr. Richardson. He was the leader of the mob in the numbers 
racket here prior to 1934. Whichever one he has a piece of now, I 
don't have any knowledge of. 

Mr. Halley. I can understand how a man in your position might 
not have the detail, but you certainly seem to be well informed as a 
good law-enforcement officer should be, and you wrote this letter 8 
months ago, and you wrote it in the present tense. You weren't writing 
about 1934. You said Rosen had been the complete boss here, and 
then he went to New York. 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Then you said he keeps his connections here and oper- 
ates through lieutenants here. 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. And that he is the undisputed boss, and his word is 
law, and an unfortunate accident is likely to befall anyone who flouts 
his authority. 

Mr. Richardson. Information came to us, nothing I had direct 
knowledge of, that the numbers men, the numbers business, were sup- 
posed to go to New York to see Rosen. For what? I imagine it is to 
kick in, to take a piece of their business. That, I can't prove, but it is 
my opinion that they went to New York. 

Mr. Halley. You mean they paid Rosen off in New York? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

The Chairman. Wlio went to New York, and when ? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't know that. I just heard rumors that the 
different guys around Philadelphia got word to go to New York. 

The Chairman. Who was it, and where did you hear it ? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't know that. I never got no exact names 
or anything else. 

Mr. Halley. Would they get this word from Cappy Hoffman? 

Mr. Richardson. That is who I assume it is from, him and Billy 
Devine. 

Senator O'Conor. One additional thing, in line with that question. 

In one portion of the letter, Mr. Richardson, to which your atten- 
tion has been directed, you do make this statement: "Rosen controls," 
present tense, "a large part of the gambling, numbers lotteries, and 
horse and sports betting in the Philadelphia area." Of course, you 
have told us about your knowledge of conditions elsewhere, of his 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 39 

miiscliiif^ in on Jimmie LaFontaine and the rest of them, but here 
is something about Phihidelphia, which has been under your direct 
attention for all this lono; period of time. Can you not tell Senator 
Kefauver and the rest of us 

Mr. EicHARDSON. Yes ; around Chester. They were supposed to be 
hanging out in Chester, outside of Philadelphia there. 

Senator O'Conor. What would you say was the extent of tlie 
operations of the numbers racket in Philadelphia, in money, in 
volume ? 

Mr. RiciTARDsoN. I wouldn't have any idea. 

Senator O'Conor. Could you not give us an estimate of it? 

Mr. Richardson. I couldn't give you an estimate of it, because I 
have no idea of it. If I was working on that particular line, maybe 
1 could give you a good line on it. 

Senator O'Conor. Yes; but in 1947 and 1948 you were especially 
assigned to 

Mr. Richardson. To raids. 

Senator O'Conor. But you more or less, I suppose, familiarized 
yourself with what was going on in gambling operations generally? 

Mr. Richardson. No; I didn't at that time. If I was given com- 
plaints, I went out and investigated and broke it up. 

Senator O'Conor. As assistant superintendent in charge of detec- 
tives, those of us who had contact with that work in the past know 
that a man in that position is well informed as to the operations gen- 
erally. I do not mean to say you can put your finger on a definite 
operation, but can you not give any idea of the volume of business? 

Mr. Richardson. What I hear, what I have seen, what I have ex- 
perienced and seen in court, it is a pretty big business, one of the 
biggest. 

Senator O'Conor. All right. I am sure that you, as a well-informed 
man, know that, but can you not give us that in dollars ? About what 
would you think the total volume would be ? 

Mr. Richardson. It would run into millions of dollars. 

Senator O'Conor. How many millions? 

Mr. Richardson. I couldn't give you the exact number, but I know 
it is a big business around here. 

Senator O'Conor. Do you and Mr. Kelly work together and more 
or less compare notes ? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. Mr. Kelly is assigned to me. 

Senator O'Conor. Mr. Kelly, you, I guess, actually wrote the letter? 

Mr. Kelly. I did, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. What would be your idea as to the extent of 
operations ? Up in the millions ? 

Mr. Kelly. I am sorry. Senator, I wouldn't have the slightest 
conception of the magnitude. 

Senator O'Conor. I am frank to say, I am somewhat surprised. 

Mr. Richardson. Mr. Kelly hasn't worked on that. He has worked 
with me only the past 2 years. I was assigned to it around 1942. I 
wasn't assigiied to it, but I took an active part in trying to break it up. 

Senator O'Conor. Can you not give any idea as to the operations in 
bookmaking? 

Mr. Richardson. No ; I never had any dealings with it, only when 
I went to raid it, Senator. 



40 ORGAXIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. With regard to the things you have heard about Rosen 
being visited by people from Philadelphia in the numbers racket and 
paid money, wouldn't you also say, from what we all know of the 
manner in which these gangsters operate, the man to whom they pay 
money, like Rosen, would also be the man who settles disputes, just 
as you said in your letter? He is the to^D pay-off man. He is the 
man whose word is law. Isn't that so ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is my opinion, Counselor, but I don't have 
any direct knowledge. That is the way I figure Rosen, my knowledge 
of Rosen. 

Mr. Halley. There is no question we are talking about your opin- 
ion, Inspector, 
r Mr. Richardson. That is right. He is the boss. 

Mr. Halley. Isn't that particularly true of the territory in the 
numbers racket ? Isn't that the thing the dispute arises about ? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't know of any territories allotted to any- 
body. I never heard of it being around here that they were allotted 
to anybody. Any guy who had any business, he was free to go 
wherever he wanted, from what I can understand. I never heard of 
■anybody just sitting in a special spot. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't you understand that in particular areas, par- 
ticular people worked? We can take a few of them. For instance, 
in the central city district, who controls that? Have you ever known? 

- Mr. Richardson. I don't know anybody that controls it. 

' Mr. Halley. Is there a fellow named Upshur ? Does he have any- 
thing to do with it ? 

- Mr. Richardson. I never heard of him. 

' Mr. Halley. Let's take the west central city district. Do you know 
anything about that ? 

j^Ir. RicLiARDSON. No; not as far as the lottery is concerned, be- 
cause we don't work on it. If I was working on it every day and 
familiar with it, I would certainly be glad to tell you. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know anything about the Cavis brothers, Abe 
and Milt Cavis ? 
' Mr. Richardson. No ; I do not. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of them ? 

Mr. Richardson. I did not. 

Mr. Halley. Those names don't mean anything to you ? 

Mr. Richardson. I never heard of them. 

Mr. Halley. Just from the point of view of your general knowledge 
of the numbers racket— you have some knowledge of it, don't you ? 

- Mr. Richardson. Yes; I have some knowledge of the numbers 
racket. 

Mr. Halley. Would you say Rosen allows them to run wild, com- 
peting with each other all over the city? 

Mr. Richardson. I never knew Rosen to direct anybody here, give 
anybody any territory here. 

iVIr. Halley. Who does direct them ? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't think anybody does. I think everybody 
who is in the numbers racket operates all over the city. They might 
have a book here in northeast, northwest. I never heard of anybody 
having a district in the numbers game. 

Mr. Halley. Have you heard of no dispute arising over the fact 
that they operate all over the city? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 41 

Mr. KiCHARDsoN. I wouldn't tolerate that a minute, if I heard: 
about it. 

Mr. Halley. There haven't been any disputes? 

Mr. Richardson. There are no organized mobs around here direct- 
ing things like that. If there is, it i^s the first time I ever heard of it. 

Mr. Halley. Could you conceive of each numbers racket operator 
being free to operate all over the city, and there not being disputes? 

Mr. Richardson. I never knew anybody directing him or telling 
him what he should do or anything. 

]\Ir. Halley, How would they avoid conflicts and gang warfares, 
if there were no disputes ? 

Mr. Richardson. There isn't any gang warfare around here. 

Mr. Halley. Then somebody must be acting to settle the arguments 
without gang warfare. Wouldn't that follow logically? 

Mr. Richardson. About that incident in West Philadelphia? 

Mr. Halley. Let's take that. 

Mr. Richardson. What would be wrong with that, only outside of 
somebody running out on a bet, from what I learned about it. Are 
there territorial rights or something? 

Mr. Halley. I don't know. I am trying to find out what you think 
about it. 

Mr. Richardson. Idon't know too much about it. Counselor. It is 
strictly a uniformed job out there, from what I understand. 

Mr. Halley. You think it would be possible=-and there is no point 
in our arguing about it at length — for these numbers writers to oper- 
ate, each one all over the city, competing with each other ? 

Mr. Richardson. I never knew of any special section, unless a guy 
had a business or a book. I never knew of any guy being nailed 
down to just a certain territory. 

Mr. Halley. What does Rosen do, then ? About what things is his 
word the law in the numbers racket, as you said in your letter? 

Mr. Richardson. His word is law. I might say that anything he 
is in on, if he has a piece of anything, he would be the guy that would 
settle anything. I don't know of anything that he has a piece of. It 
is just my information that certain people were sent over to New 
York to see him. 

Mr. Halley. You are here as an expert 

Mr. Richardson. Now, wait. Let me explain that to you, because 
from my experience with Rosen, they used to have different guys go 
around to the numbers writers, and they could take so much of their 
business in, which they call the edge-off. 

The Chairman. Let us have these gentlemen back after a recess. 

Gentlemen, would it be convenient for you to come back at 1 : 45 ? 

Mr. Richardson. Surely. 

The Chairman. We will carry on after that. 

(Thereupon, at 12: 40 p. m., a recess was taken until 1 : 45 p. m. of 
the same day.) 

afternoon session 

(The committee reconvened at 2 : 15 p. m.) 
The Chairman. Let's get on, gentlemen. 



42 ORGAXIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 

rURTHER TESTIMONY OF GEORGE F. RICHARDSON, ASSISTANT 
SUPERINTENDENT OF POLICE IN CHARGE OF DETECTIVES, AND 
JOHN J. KELLY, PATROLMAN, ACTING DETECTIVE, PHILADEL- 
PHIA, PA. 

Mr. Klein. Superintendent, some 5 years ago there was a murder 
in upper Darby across the county line of one Joseph Saia, alias Joe 
Sharkey. You investigated that case ? 

Mr. Richardson. No, I didn't investigate it. 

The Chairman. Speak up. 

Mr. Richardson. No, I did not investigate it. It is out of our juris- 
diction. 

Mr. Klein. You testified in connection with the arrest of James 
Singleton before Magistrate Roberts. 

Mr. Richardson. I testified I made the investigation ? 

Mr. Klein. No, sir. You testified. You testified before Magistrate 
Roberts in the case of James Singleton. 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. And you said, I am quoting from an article in the 
Evening Bulletin of February 5, 1948 

Mr. Richardson. Saia used to be a partner, I believe, to Singleton. 

Mr. Klein. Yes. 

Mr. Richardson. It is knowledge that we hear around that he was 
a partner to Singleton. 

Mr. Klein. Did you ever testify that Singleton had been with Saia 
in his car 10 minutes before Saia was killed ? 

Mr. Richardson. No, sir ; I never did and I never had that knowl- 
edge. 

Mr. IQ.EIN. You did not ? 

Mr. Richardson. No, I didn't testify to that. 

Mr. Klein. Did you testify with respect to James Singleton on 
the 5th of February 1948, 1 quote : 

This bank is policed by gangsters and as a result of their operations one 
murder has occurred. This was the killing of one of the former partners of this 
crowd in the Sixty-ninth Street section. 

Mr. Richardson. Yes, I testified to that. 

Mr. Klein. "Were you referring to the Singleton numbers bank? 

Mr. Richardson. No, I was referring to the other outfit. 

Mr. Klein. Wliich other outfit? 

Mr. Richardson. It was rumored around that they were trying to 
move in. Saia was one of their henchmen. 

Mr. Klein. Was one of whose henchmen ? 

Mr. Richardson. The Rosen mob. 

Mr. Klein. He was a Rosen mobster ? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Don't you believe that he was a partner of Singleton's ? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes, I believe it, yes ; but I have no way of proving 
it, you understand. It is just common knowledge around that we 
learn these things, who is different partners and so forth. I never 
pitched him with Singleton. 

Mr. Klein. Did you ever hear. Superintendent, a few days after 
Saia was killed, Frank Palermo became Singleton's partner in the 
numbers bank ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 43 

Mr. KicHARDsoN. Yes, I heard that. 

Mr. Klein. Is that correct ? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Is that your knowledge? 

Mr. Richardson. That is my knowledge, yes. 

The Chairman. How do you know that, Superintendent? 

Mr. Richardson. I hear different rumors around 

The Chairman. I know, but besides rumors how do you know that 
to be true ? Hoav would you prove it ? 

Mr., Richardson. There is no specific reason why I should say it, 
other than that I hear these things that are supposed to be partners 
with Singleton. I never pitched him with Singleton and when I was 
sent after Singleton I thought I would get him with him too. But I 
never seen him in action. 

Mr. Klein. Is he still Singleton's partner? 

]\Ir. Richardson. To my knowledge I believe it, yes. 

Mr. Klein. Have you any information with respect to the shooting 
on August 12, 1950, in which Singleton and Palermo are supposed to 
have participated ? 

Mr. Richardson. No, I have not. 

Mr. Klein. That is all. 

The Chairman. Mr. Halley ? 

Mr. Halley. Nothing else at this time. 

The Chairman. You testified that Rosen had an operation up near 
Chester, Pa. Does he still have it? 

Mr. Richardson. I believe that is where they are at, in the Sun 
Hotel in Chester. 

The Chairman. What kind of operation is it? 

Mr. Richardson. I never saw it, but they used to have a crap game, 
numbers, or whatever goes on out there. I was never in the place to 
get that knowledge of it. 

The Chairman. Is it operating now ? 

Mr. Richardson.. I don't know that. That was before I was taken 
sick. They had been out there for years to my knowledge, out in 
Chester. 

The Chairman. I believe you said that Lansky and Rosen were 
brothers-in-law. 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. 

The Chairman. Do you know that? 

Mr. Richardson. Only from knowledge I gained around town.^ Not 
from any direct connection with either one of them. I haven't seen 
Rosen for probably 8 or 10 years. 

The Chairman. Your record of telephone calls shows that Rosen 
keeps on calling people down here — in the last 2 or 3 years ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

The Chairman. Who does he call ? 

Mr. Richardson. You have the knowledge there. You have it all 
there. I didn't even look at it. I turned them over to you people. 

The Chairman. What does it show, gentlemen ? Let's see who it is 
who is being called. 

Mr. Rice. We will bring it out in Rosen's testimony. 

The Chairman. Off the record. 

(Off the record.) 



44 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Richardson. I will turn over anything I have got. I would 
chase them. I wouldn't let them around here 5 minutes if I am 
around. The same thing with Mr. Kelly here. 

The Chairman. Chief, how old are you at the present time ? 

Mr. Kelly. I am 58 years old. I will be 59 in February. 

The Chairman. How long have you been with the department, Mr. 
Kelly? 

Mr. Kelly. Ten years, sir. 

The Chairman. How old are you ? 

Mr. Kichardson. Forty-one. 

The Chairman. Do either of you have any other information that 
would be of help to us ? 

Mr. Richardson. We are not in the numbers crusade. We are just 
after these gangsters, criminals, who prey on other people. We don't 
let them around here. We don't want them to stay here. That is the 
treatment they get here. 

The Chairman. How about the slot machines ? 

Mr. Richardson. I know nothing about slot machines. I never saw 
any in operation around here. 

The Chairman. That is not in your department. 

Mr. Richardson. No ; nothing like that comes under me. The only 
time I go out on that is on direct orders from my superiors. Director 
Rosenberg or Superintendent Sutton, my immediate superiors. Any 
time I go out I bring them in and they are convicted ; that is the end 
of it. 

The Chairman. Thank you. Superintendent, and Mr. Kelly. You 
go on, and if we need you again we will call you. 

Mr. Richardson. We will be here in 5 minutes for you. 

The Chairman. Thank you. 

Mr. Richardson. Thank you, sir. 

The Chairman. Hold up your hand. Do you solemnly swear the 
testimony you will give this committee will be the whole truth and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. McDonald. I do. "^ 

TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL McDONALD, PHILADELPHIA, PA., POEMEE 
MEMBEE OF PHILADELPHIA POLICE DEPAETMENT 

Mr. Klein. What is your name ? 

Mr. McDonald. Thomas Michael McDonald. 

Mr. Klein. And your address ? 

Mr. IMcDonald. 7538 Brockton Road, Philadelphia. 

Mr. Klein. Are you married ? 

Mr. McDonald. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. You are a suspended member of the Philadelphia Police 
Department ? 

Mr. McDonald. That is correct. 

Mr. Klein. How old were you on the police force? 

Mr. McDonald. I Avas appointed August 14, 1944. 

Mr. Klein. When were you suspended ? 

Mr. McDonald. I was suspended on the evening of May 3, after an 
arrest, and I remained suspended until the 19th of May, and I was 
put back to work by order of the director. I remained on duty I 
think until I went before the civil-service commission on the l7th of 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 45 

July. On the lOtli of July the civil-service commission handed down 
its decision to dismiss me. 

Mr. Klein. What did you do before you Avent on the police force? 

Mr. ]\IcDoNALD. I Avas in the Army. 

Mr. Klein. How long were you in the Army? 

]SIr. McDonald. I was in there for 16 years. 

]\Ir. Klein. What rank did you have at the time of your separation ? 

Mr. McDonald. I was master sergeant. 

Mr. Klein. What was your rank with the Philadelphia police 
force ? 

Mr. McDonald. Patrolman. 

Mr. Klein. Will you tell the committee briefly the circumstances 
that led to your suspension? I will ask you to be brief because we 
are running away behind time. 

Mr. McDonald. All right. I have my 590's that I made out to my 
superior officer, who is the inspector over the captain. 

j\Jr. Halley. Let's put them in evidence. 

Mr. IMcDonald. He wanted a report of the arrest and everything 
that took place up to the time of my suspension. This is a copy of 
my report given to the inspector. 

Mr. Klein. May I see it ? 

The Chairman. Do you have another copy? 

Mr. INIcDoNALD. Yes. My lawyer has one. 

The Chairman. May we have this one ? 

Mr. McDonald. Yes ; you can have that. 

The Chairman. Let it be made as exhibit No. 2. 

(The document referred to is on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Klein. You say in here that you were offered a bribe by a 
numbers writer to let him go when you attempted to arrest him on 
theSdof May 1950? 

Mr. McDonald. That is correct. 

Mr. Klein. Who was he ? 

Mr. McDonald. Jack Rogers. 

Mr. Klein. Do you know him to have been a numbers writer ? 

Mr. McDonald. I didn't know up until Monday. He was pointed 
out to me on Monday, May 1. On Wednesday, May 3, I noticed him 
taking a bet and that is when I arrested him. 

Mr. Klein. After you arrested him, one Mike Caserta, you say, 
came into the police station ? 

Mr. McDonald. Yes. During the course of the slating Mike Ca- 
serta, whom Rogers said was his backer, entered the police station 
and demanded to know why he was being arrested. 

Mr. Klein. Did Capt. Vincent Elwell, your commanding officer, 
participate in the conversation ? 

Mr. McDonald. He entered the room after I placed him under 
arrest. 

Mr, Klein. Why did you arrest Caserta ? 

My. McDonald. He wanted me to change the charge on Rogers 
to disorderly conduct. He said, "Change them charges to disorderly 
conduct and I will give you a couple of hundred dollars." He has a 
bad record, 

Mr, Klein. Did he hold out any money to you ? 

Mr. McDonald. No ; he didn't. 

68958 — 51 — pt. 11 4 



46 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Klein. He merely said "I will give you a couple of hundred 
dollars"? 

Mr. McDonald. That is correct. 

The Chairman. Who is Mike Caserta ? 

Mr. McDonald. He is the banker of the horse and numbers in the 
northwest Philadelphia section of the city, the fortieth ward in the 
fifty-second district. 

The Chaikman. I thought Jack Kogers offered you a bribe. 

Mr. McDonald. He did. He is the writer for Caserta. Caserta 
is the banker. 

Mr. Klein. What did Captain Elwell do ? 

The Chairman. Let's stay on this bribe that Jack Eogers offered 
you. How much was his offer ? 

Mr. McDonald. A hundred dollars. 

The Chairman. What were the circumstances of that ? 

Mr. McDonald. When I first picked him up he wanted to give me 
$100 to let him go. I told him "No," he was under arrest, and I pro- 
ceeded on to the station house with him. When I got him in front of 
the house sergeant he asked to be slated for disorderly conduct in- 
stead of on a horse-and-numbers charge, which wasn't an indictable 
charge. I refused him. Caserta entered the station house then and 
he wanted the charge placed as disorderly conduct, and his excuse was 
that Rogers had a bad record, which I didn't know up until that time 
what his record was. I refused the offer of Caserta. As he turned 
away he said, "I will frame you good, you son-of-a-bitch." Wlien he 
said that I grabbed hold of him and placed him under arrest. 

I slated him on disorderly conduct. Captain Elwell appeared in 
the roll room and there were about 37 police officers ready to stand 
roll call, with three sergeants in there. I had a scuffle with Caserta. 
Nobody offered a hand in the arrest. They just all stood there, froze. 
Captain Elwell appeared and wanted to know who locked up Mike. 
He addressed him as Mike. One of the patrolmen said McDonald 
did. I turned around and he was facing me then. He said, "Huh!" 
He turned around and walked back out. 

About 8 o'clock the sergeant visited me on the street, the street 
sergeant, Leo Brodwick, and said that the captain wanted to see me 
in the station house. My beat was at Thirty-sixth and Elmwood 
Avenue, which is roughly nine blocks from the district station house 
at Sixty-fifth and Woodland. I went into the station house and 
Captain Elwell was in the room and when I went in I went up to the 
house sergeant, and he came across the room and said, "Who do you 
think you are around here?" 

I said, "What do you mean?" 

He said, "Who do you think you are locking up a horse-and-numbers 
man ? You ai^e not on the vice squad." 

He said, "You are out here to write summonses." 

I said, "Well, that is part of police work, locking up horse-and- 
numbers men." 

He said, "You think it is?" 

I said, "Yes." 

He said, "Well, I want you to make this report out over again." 

I said, "O. K." 

I asked the sergeant for a 590. He said, "No; you will make it out 
in my office." 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMIMERCE. 47 

So he took me into his office and I proceeded to make the same report 
over again that I had made out. 

So he said, "I have known IMike since he was a little boy." 
I said, "I wouldn't brag about knowing that thug." I said, "With 
the record he has, as police captain you ought to be ashamed to admit 
knoAving a man like that." 

He said, '"Did you ever see me with Mike Caserta?" 
I said, "In the station house here," 

He smiled and said, "Sure. That is my business to talk to people 
in the station house." 

I said, "Yes, and I saw you other places." 
Hesaid, "Where at?" 

I said "That is my business, Captain." I said, "If you are done 
with me, I will leave." 

He said, "Stick around. I want to talk to you a little while." 
So he waited there about 10 minutes, and about 10 minutes later he 
was looking out the window on Sixty-fifth Street, and about 10 min- 
utes later there was supposed to be a complaint in the roll room that 
I was in the same room with the captain. I didn't hear it. Of course 
it could have been. But Captain Elwell walked to the door and said, 
"Who is hollering out there?" 

The sergeant stepped from behind the door, which he had been 
standing there all the time. I could see his reflection on the wall 
across, the door was open. 

He said, "A man is complaining about being short some money 
out here." 

He said, "Bring him in here." He brought him in and it was 
Rogers. He said to Rogers, "Are you short some money?" 

Rogers said he was short $123— $130. He said, "I have only $127 
on this sheet." The captain said, "Who told you you were short this 
money?" 
He said "The house sergeant." 

The house sergeant spoke up and said, "No, I wasn't here when your 
money was taken off of you." 

He said, "No, I found out off the guy outside." The captain said 
"You mean you found out off the police boy down at city hall where 
thev fingerprint them. You saw the sheet lying on the fingerprint 
table." 

He said, "Yes, that is right." 

So I spoke up and I said, "Why don't jou let him tell his ^ory, 
Captain?" 

The captain said, "You keep quiet. I am doing the investigating 
here." 

So he said, "How much money did you have exactly when you were 
locked up, Rogers?" 
He said "Exactly $250." 
The captain said, "Any more?" 
He said "No more, no less." 

He then pulled $40 out of his pocket and said, "But I still have $40." 
So I spoke up. I said "If you have $40, and I took $127 off you, that 
makes $167. How can you be short $130 when you had only $250? 
That makes a total of $297 you would have had in your possession." 
So the captain said nobody is asking you for your opinion of what 
went on. So he took a statement off of Rogers and he asked Rogers 



48 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

what he did. He said, "I write numbers and horses." The captain 
said "You don't want to say that in the statement. You are locked 
up for horses and numbers." 

He said, "You mean you play the horses and numbers, and that is 
where you got that money?" 

He said, "Yes, that is right." 

So he finished the statement and he said to Rogers, "All right, now, 
you sign this." 

Rogers said, "No, Iwon't sign it." 

He said "Oh yes, you will. You sign it and I will see that nothing 
happens to you. I will see that you get your money back." 

So Rogers signed the statement. -As soon as he signed the statement 
the captain said "You are suspended." 

I said to him, "Do you mean to tell me you are going to suspend 
me on the accusation of this ex-convict here who has 18 felony arrests, 
plus aggravated assault and battery on a police officer?" 

He said, "What are you doing checking up on that man's record?" 

I said, "That is my business to check up on anybody's record that 
I place under arrest." 

He said, "Well, I will make it my business how you found out his 
record." 

So I said "If you are done with me. Captain, I will leave." 

He said "All right." 

That was pertaining to the arrest, and the suspension. 

Mr. Klein. Is Caserta tied up with any particular numbers bank in 
West Philadelphia? 

Mr. McDonald. He is assumed to be tied up with Blinky Palermo's 
gang. 

Mr. Klein. Is he tied up with the Jimmie Singleton group ? 

Mr. McDonald. That is supposed to be one consolidated bank, I 
believe. 

Mr. Klein. By the way, how long have you been out in West Phila- 
delphia as an officer ? 

]\Ir. McDonald. I have been out there, I would say, on and off 4 
years. The station at that precinct in the Thirty-second, in the dis- 
trict, I have been stationed there since November 11, 1949. I was in 
motor bandit prior to that, from time of my appointment up to 
November 11, 1949. 

Mr. Klein. Do you know Joseph Burns? 

Mr. McDonald. Joe Burns. He is the ward leader of the fortieth 
ward. 

Mr. Klein. Has he any connection, to j^our knowledge, with 
Palermo, Singleton, and Conserta ? 

Mr. McDonald. To hearsay, he is referred to as the boss. 

The Chairman. Wlio is that now ? 

Mr. Klein. Joseph Burns. 

Mr. McDonald. I have seen him in the station house quite a num- 
ber of times, coming from the captain's room and in company with 
the captain. 

Mr. Klein. Are there any policemen out there, to your knowledge, 
who are paid by numbers operators? 

Mr. McDonald. You see, I work singly, by myself, which a district 
cop does. There are some in cars who are paired. Since I have been 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 49 

in the tliirty-second district as a precinct cop, I haven't had an oppor- 
tunity to be with any of them who were being paid. The only one 
as far as my investigation was that there was one man who did the 
collecting, and that was Bitting, Earl Bitting. 

Mr. Klein. Who is Earl Bitting? 

Mr. McDonald. He was listed on a personnel sheet as in charge of 
the boys' club. That was supposed to be his specific duty. 

Mr. Klein. In the thirty-second district ? 

Mr. McDonald. In the thirty-second district. He is now retired. 

Mr. Klein. He is a police officer, was a police officer? 

Mr. McDonald. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. You say he was a collector. For whom was he a 
collector ? 

Mr. McDonald. He was assumed to be the collector for Captain 
Elwell. 

The Chaikman. Wait a minute. Assumed to be collector for 
whom? 

Mr. McDonald. Captain Elwell. 

The Chairman. How do you know that ? 

Mr. McDonald. From interrogating different racket men. Asking 
them what the captain was riding around the district for. He never 
was in a police uniform. 

Mr. Klein. He was a plain-clothes man? 

Mr. McDonald. Yes. He wasn't a plain-clothes man. He never 
wore a uniform, though. 

Mr. Hallet. What racket man could give us that information? 

Mr. McDonald. Bradshaw was one. The corner he was on was 
Fifty-second and Woodland Avenue. 

Mr, Halley. Who did you interrogate? Who told you? 

Mr. McDonald. He was one. 

Mr. Halley. Bradshaw ? 

Mr. McDonald. Bradshaw. I stopped him one day and looked him 
over. 

Mr. Halley. Did he tell you that? 

Mr. McDonald. Yes ; he said that is the captain's collector. 

Mr. Halley. Who else told you that ? 

Mr. McDonald. I asked— I don't know his name, but he is referred 
to as Little — I don't know if that is his right name or not. He is re- 
ferred to as Little Pollack. I had spoken to him on February 8 when 
I had investigated him on a highway at Sixty-second with reference 
to picking up horses and numbers. At that time he was carrying quite 
a large amount. My investigation at that time was in reference to him 
and with reference to who he thought he was, and his remarks with 
the captain, wanting me to take him in to the captain before I would 
search him or anything. 

Mr. Klein. How much money did he have on him? 

Mr. McDonald. He had quite a few thousand dollars on him that 
morning. He had them in $100 and $50 bills, brand new in wrappers 
just as tiiey come out of the bank. 

Mr. Klein. Did he offer you any to let him go ? 

Mr. McDonald. Yes ; he offered to give me a bill at that time. 

Mr. Klein. Wliat do you mean by a bill ? 

Mr. McDonald. I think it was a 50. It wasn't definitely pointed out. 
He had the money in his hand and he made a— he said "Here you are, 
let me get these horses and numbers." 



50 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIVIMERCE 

Mr. Klein. Have you ever seen Bitting in the police station with 
Captain Elwell with any money between them ? 

Mr. ]\IcDoNALD. No. 

Mr. Klein. Yon indicated in conversation we had with you a few 
days ago that you had seen Bitting come into the police station with 
his pockets full of money. 

Mr. McDonald. I believe I said that Bitting was very conspicuous 
for anybody who knew what was going on. In the summertime his 
pockets would be bulging. 

Mr. Klein. How would you tell that ? 

Mr. McDonald. You see, when he doesn't have a coat or anything 
on, the police pants in front, if you put anything in them, stuff them 
very much, they bulge out. It is not very obvious that a person would 
walk around, knowing the capacity he works in in the district. Mon- 
day was his clay to come into the district. You wouldn't see him there 
all week, but on a Monday he would be around there on the hour at 3 
o'clock. He would come in and go to the captain's room. 

Mr, Klein. You are telling us that the only time you saw Bitting, 
who was a patrolman, was on Mondays? 

Mr. McDonald. On a Monday. That wasn't the only time I ever 
saw him. What I mean is, he wasn't a steady figure in the station 
house during the week. He was likely to come in on a Thursday or 
something. I have seen him there at other times. We would definitely 
always see him there on Monday. 

Mr. Klein. You have been around the town for 6 years as an officer. 
What is the schedule of payments that are made by numbers people to 
police officers ? 

Mr. McDonald. The amount is supposed to be, from my recollec- 
tion — I have never seen the transaction take place, but it is assumed 
to be $5 per car. 

Mr. Klein. Five dollars per red car. 

The Chairman. Per day ? 

Mr. McDonald. No; that is every third week when your shift is 
working day work. That is the only time they are supposed to pay is 
on the day-work shift, during the operation of these numbers and 
horses, which they don't operate on the other two tricks. Of course, 
from 4 to 12 they do part time because horses generally run from 
6 : 30 to 7 o'clock. 

Senator O'Conor. Would there be made additional payment than 
the particular officers in the red car? 

Mr. McDonald. I assume from my knowledge and what I have 
heard that there are certain men in the squad who are designated as 
pick-up men. 

Senator O'Conor. What was your understanding of the total amount 
that was paid either weekly or every 3 weeks ? 

Mr. McDonald. To one car? 

Senator O'Conor. No ; for all. 

Mr. McDonald. For the over-all squad? 

Senator O'Conor. That is right. 

Mr. McDonald. It depends on the district, j^ou see. In the city you 
run into districts like the thirty-fifth district, which is uptown, and 
used to be a residential district, which naturally limits rackets. When 
you come downtown into the colored section of the city, like south 
Philadelphia, the southwest, and in the middle of the town, and all 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 51 

the way up Columbia Avenue, Susquehanna Avenue, they arc known 
as red-hot districts where vice is very heavy. In those districts the 
average talk is that it is $100 a man on the day work. That is his 
take. 

Senator O'Conor. What would be the total number of men? 
_ Mr. McDonald. To figure roughly there is about 12 good districts 
like that in the city, and the same men work those districts all the time. 

In some of the cars they have two of that kind of district. 

Senator O'Conor. You must have made some kind of calculation 
generally. Can't you tell Senator Kefauver and the rest of us what, 
in the aggregate, was the total you think of the regular payments? 

Mr. McDonald. The over-all payment? You mean counting like 
we will take motor bandit. 

Senator O'Conor. Everybody. 

Mr. McDonald. In motor bandit it is supposed to be $5 per car. 
They have 21 cars in there. To break down that figure," you would 
have to go into how many writers and bankers are in that territory, 
you see. They wouldn't pay off just one man. They are supposed to 
be paid by each horse man. Some districts might have maybe 12 or 
15 horse men in it, maybe 40 or 50 writers. 

Senator O'Conor. Would each of them pay $5? 

Mr. INIcDoNALD. No. Some of the writers sometimes do. Some of 
them ^Aork under one bank. ]Maybe one bank will have 12 or 13 
writers. 

The Chairman. Listen, Mr. McDonald, what would you figure 
would be the average amount that is paid to the police for protection 
per month by the numbers and horse writers, banks and bookies and 
what not in the city of Philadelphia ? 

Mr. McDonald. My estimate of the figure ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. McDonald. It would run very high. 

The Chairman. I know it would be guesswork, but give us your 
estimate. 

Mr. McDonald. Within the city I would say in a month the take — 
that is not counting anywhere where it is big — what I mean by saying 
that is just what the higher-ups get I don't know. What their figure 
is I don't know. I have heard different calculations on what their 
figure was, but I would say to the actual cops up to a captain I would 
say there are 38 districts in this city. I would say into those districts 
at least three or four thousand dollars is paid. 

The Chairman. You mean three or four thousand dollars per month 
in each district ? 

Mr. ]McDonald. Easy. Absolutely. That is a small figure at that. 

Mr. Klein. That is $152,000 a month. 

The Chairman. Do you think that is a small figure? It doesn't 
count payment to the higher-ups ? 

Mr. McDonald. That is right. 

The Chairman. All right, let's get on. 

Mr. Klein. What did you figure was the take of Captain Elwell, 
your captain, from gambling and other operations ? 

Mr. McDonald. From what I have heard and my information out 
there compiled, he was good for roughly a thousand a week. 

The Chairman. That he got that much ? 



52 ORGAN^IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McDonald. That was supposed to be roughly what that dis- 
trict was worth to a captain. 

Mr, Klein. Did he get that from other police officers ? 

Mr. McDonald. That is the talk, you know. 

Mr. Klein. Among other officers ? 

Mr. McDonald. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. And among racketeers ? 

Mr. McDonald. Different racketeers talking about how well the 
captain does. 

Senator O'Conor. How about inspectors? 

Mr. McDonald. In that division where I worked, Inspector John 
Murphy is the inspector. 

Mr. Klein. I didn't mean any particular inspector. I meant had 
you any word as to what the price on any inspector was, as to what 
their take was, if any. 

Mr. McDonald. It is supposed to run roughly about $25 per man. 
Of course you hear different stories. Some inspectors are tougher than 
others. 

The Chairman. What do you mean, $25 

Mr. McDonald. Like if you were a number writer, the inspector has 
four men. There was supposed to be $25 from you. 

The Chairman. You mean $25 from each man in the numbers ? 

Mr. McDonald. That is right. 

Senator O'Conor. What would an estimate of the total be to the 
inspector ? 

Mr. McDonald. I have heard his figure ran as high as 60 or TO thou- 
sand dollars, a good inspector. That depends on where the inspector is 
located. 

The Chairman. Per year ? 

Mr. McDonald. Yes. 

The Chairman. This $1,000 — you said $1,000 a week for a captain 
like Elwell. That would be $50,000 a year. Do you mean it is that 
much ? 

Mr. McDonald. That district is supposed to be one of the best dis- 
tricts in the city. 

The Chairman. How about Captain Murphy ? 

Mr. McDonald. Inspector Murphy? 

The Chairman. Inspector Murphy. 

Mr. McDonald. As long as I have been in the police department I 
have never heard one word said against Inspector Murphy. As far as 
I know, Inspector Murphy is supposed to be one of the only police 
officials who is not on the take. 

The Chairman. How about Sgt. Charles Saline ? 

Mr. McDonald. He is in motor bandit. 

The Chairman. What do you mean, "motor bandit" ? 

Mr. Klein. He is in the motor-bandit squad. 

Mr. McDonald. He is not in the district. He is a sergeant in motor 
bandit. A sergeant in the motor bandit and sergeant in district — you 
take a district sergeant, he has one district, but a motor-bandit ser- 
geant — there is one motor-bandit sergeant takes all of West Philadel- 
phia. That includes the forty-second district, the twenty-ninth dis- 
trict, the thirty-eighth district, the thirty-second district, the twenty- 
first and the sixteenth. 

The Chairman. Did you see some money paid to Captain Strange ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 53 

Mr. McDonald, No; I never saw any money paid to Captain 
Strange. 

The Chairman. Didn't you know something about it ? 

INIr. McDonald. 1 know something is going on out tlierc from the 
different way things were going on, and from hearing. 

The Chairman. What was going on ? 

Mr. McDonald. The way the work sheets work for one reason, the 
"way the assignments go, who they go to, and different men who can 
get different stuff, time off and stuff like that, the different huddles 
that takes place between them, which naturally starts men to talking in 
the squad. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Klein. In your district there were also a number of one-man 
clubs? 

Mr. McDonald. That is correct. I think that is the largest district 
in the city with one-man clubs. 

Mr. KxEiN. How many would you say there are ? 

Mr. McDonald. I would say there must be over 50 of them in there. 

Mr. Kjlein. Is it your impression there is a payment to the captain 
from these one-man clubs ? 

Mr. McDonald. That is correct. I was told that it is $10 a week 
from the clubs. It runs rouglily around $50 a month. 

Mr. Klein. $10 a week? 

Mr. McDonald. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. There are over 50 of them ? 

Mr. McDonald. Yes. 

Mr. KiEiN. That would be a minimum of $500 a week. 

Mr. McDonald, Yes ; that would be right. 

Mr. Kjlein. Wliat is a one-man club ? 

Mr. McDonald. That is a club like a small room, that gets a liquor 
charter or something, and he puts a sign up, or something, American 
Veterans or Disabled Veterans or the Irish Veterans or something 
like that. It is known as a one-man club. 

Mr. Klein. That is all I have. 

The Chairman. How about Nig Kosen ; have you seen him around 
here recently ? 

Mr. McDonald. I don't know anything about Nig Kosen. I am 
never much in the center of the city. 

The Chairman. How about these fellows who are supposed to be 
his lieutenants ? What are their names ? 

Mr. McDonald. Weisberg ? 

The Chairman. Weisberg. 

Mr. Klein. Hoffman ? 

The Chairman. Are they in the numbers game ? 

Mr. McDonald. I don't know. I have never had any deals with 
them. I have never stopped them. 

The Chairman. So it is your feeling that the big majority of the 
police officers all up and down the line are getting paid well? 

Mr. McDonald. I would say from the way I see things function, 
somebody is not acting in good faith. 

The Chairman. The way you see things function. Why ? 

Mr. McDonald. If j^ou do happen to bother these numbers men, 
you are put on a beat where there ain't none. You are growled at 



54 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

right and left about it. They don't like it. It seems if they are in 
good faith and want this stuff — neither have I stood roll call since I 
have been in the bureau of police and heard a police captain announce 
over the roll-call desk that he wanted such and such stuff broken up. 
You can ride anywhere up and down Woodland Avenue and i)lay a 
horse. I have never heard any instructions civen to so and so, you 
are on such a beat at Fifty-eighth and Woodland, I don't want no 
horses played there, I don't want no nmnbers. 

But I have heard it to write summons or something like that. It 
was only the last 3 months that I have heard an order out of the super- 
intendent of police where he told the captains and inspectors he 
wanted these numbers rackets broken up. 

Senator O'Conor. What information have you as to whether the 
gamblers have influence with the courts or with any other officials out- 
side the police department, the city hall or elsewdiere, if you have any 
such information ? 

Mr. McDonald. No definite information on that. 

Mr. Klein. What about Joe the Barber ? 

Mr. McDoNx\LD. Joe the Barber is Magistrate Donnell's clerk. I 
believe you asked me to get his correct name. It is Madia JSIattea, of 
2106 South Sixty-first Street. He has a few aliases that he goes by. 
He is Magistrate DonnelFs clerk. He is clerk to the lieutenant of the 
fortieth ward. He seems to have the say out there where cops will 
work. 

Mr. Klein. Is he supposed to tell Captain Elwell where certain men 
are to be assigned? 

Mr. McDonald. That is the general idea, yes. He is the go-between. 
He goes between Joe Burns and the police captain and anybody locked 
up. He is bragging he is over there to get them up. The night I 
locked up Rogers and Caserta, I was handed a slip of paper with a 
phone number on it to call. I asked where the phone number was, and 
the officer who handed it to me said it was Joe the Barber calling and 
wanted me to call him. 

Mr. Klein. Did you call him ? 

Mr. McDonald. No. I had no reason to call a guy like that. 

The CiiAiRMx\N. INIr. McDonald, are you married ? 

Mr. McDonald. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many children do you have? 

Mr. McDonald. I don't have any now, sir. 

Mr. Klein. You had a boy. 

Mr. McDonald. I had a boy who got drowned. 

The Chairman. You were in the Army how many years ? 

Mr. McDonald. Sixteen. 

The Chairman. Have you ever been in any trouble, you say ? 

Mr. McDonald. No. 

The Chairman. Have you ever been arrested ? 

Mr. McDonald. No; never arrested. I was in the Army from the 
time I was 17 years old until I came out and went in the police depart- 
ment. I was given a disability discharge in 1944, January 26. 

Mr. Klein. You served 3 years in the war, did you ? 

Mr. McDonald. Yes ; 38 months. 

The Chairman. I wanted to ask you something about this central 
city district. About 50 banks meet weekly at CR Club, Eighth and 



ORGANIZED CRIIME IIS" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 55 

Catherine Avenues, and the proprietor is Franlc Pahnnbo. Is that 
rio-lit ? 

Mr. McDonald. Yes; he is the proprietor of that chib. That is the 
Pahnnbo Chib. 

The Chairman. What is the Palumbo Club ? 

Mr. McDonald. Tliat is supposed to be a fashionable club, dining 
place here, a night club. 

The Chairaian. Councilman Charles J. Palmer of the first ward — 
does he meet there ? 

Mr. jMcDonald. I don't know. 

The Chairman. How about Richard Samuel? Have you had any 
numbers operations with him? 

]Mr. INIcDoNALD. No ; I haven't. He is the ward leader of the Thirty- 
ninth Ward. 

Mr. Klein. What is his general reputation ? 

Mr. McDonald. His general reputation is not so hot as far as I know. 

Mr. Klein. Has he a reputation as a numbers writer and banker? 

Mr. jSIcDonald. I supposed he would be tied up with slot machines, 
something like that. I heard the story where a couple of cops went 
to take a slot machine out of a diner, and he said you had better not. 

The Chairman. Where was that ? 

Mr. McDonald. That was at Forty-ninth and Lancaster, I believe. 

The Chairman. When ? 

Mr. McDonald. That happened about 3 years ago, 2 years ago. I 
will say 3 years to be safe. I heard the conversation about it. 

Senator O'Conor. Have 3'ou ever seen him in operation or seen him 
actively interested in any matter ? 

Mr. McDonald. SamuePs son? 

Senator O'Conor. Yes. 

Mr. IMcDoNALD. No ; I haven't. 

The Chairman. Anything else, gentlemen ? 

Thank you very much, ]Mr. jNIcDonald. 

Mr. INIcDoNALD. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Stein. I would like to explain to you. Senator, that I am not 
here to prevent my client from telling you anything; quite the con- 
trary. 

The Chairman. You are perfectly welcome. 

Mr. Stein. I want to say another thing. I want to apologize for 
the three men who were served with subpenas. Yesterday was a bank 
holiday. 

I would like to know whether I can have a copy of the transcript. 

The Chairman. On a confidential basis you may have it. 

Mr. Stein. It will be only for my own use. 

Mr. Hallet. We are referring only to Captain Elwell's testimony, 
not the whole transcript. 

The Chairman. Will you stand up, Captain. Do you solemnly 
swear the testimony you 'will give this committee will be the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Elwell. I do, sir. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Halley. 



56 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

TESTIMONY OF VINCENT L. ELWELL, CAPTAIN OE POLICE, WEST 
PHILADELPHIA, PA., ACCOMPANIED BY WALTEPv STEIN, ATTOR- 
NEY AT LAW, PHILADELPHIA, PA. 

Mr. Halley. What is your full name ? 

Mr. Elwell. Vincent L. Elwell, captain of police, twenty-first dis- 
trict now, at 3216' Woodland Avenue. 

Mr. Halley. Where is your residence ? 

Mr, Elwell. My residence is 7058 Grace Avenue in West Phila- 
delphia. 

Mr. Halley. Counsel, may we have your appearance ? 

Mr. Stein. Walter Stein, 2100 Girard Trust Building, Philadel- 
phia 2, Pa. 

Mr. Halley. Captain, were you served with a subpena to produce 
certain records before this committee ? 

Mr. Elwell. Yes ; I was. 

Mr. Halley. Have you produced those records ? 

Mr. Elwell. I have not been able to gather them together as yet. 

Mr. Stein. May I explain to the committee for the record that I 
spoke to Mr. Klein yesterday for Inspector Driscoll and all others that 
■we are to get all the records together and will be happy to produce 
them, but it was a bank holiday yesterday and the time was short, 
and whatever you will ask, whether in committee or privately or for 
your investigator, we will be very happy to show you. He has a 
voluminous bunch of records at home but he just hasn't had time to 
get them together. 

Mr. Elwell. I would like to get them together. 

Mr. Halley. Of course the committee is here today, Captain. 

Mr. Stein. I spoke to Mr, Klein. 

Mr. Klein. Yesterday was a bank holiday and it was impossible 
to get tliem, 

Mr. Halley. I understood some were in his home, 

Mr. Stein. We can have them for j'^ou tomorrow morning. 

The Chairman. Let's get them in the morning and let's proceed. 

Mr. Halley. May we have them here tomorrow morning? 

Mr. Elwell. I feel certain I can. 

Mr. Halley. What is your income as a police captain? 

Mr. Elwell. $4,510 per year. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any other income ? 

Mr. Elavell. I have rental from real-estate property next door 
tome. 

Mr. Hali^y, What do the rentals come to ? 

Mr. Elwell. $52.50 per month, 

Mr, Halley, Would you say that in 1949 your total income was not 
in excess of $5,000 ? Would that be accurate? 

Mr. Elwell. Including the rent, I think it would be in excess of 
that; yes. 

Mr. Halley. You say it would be in excess of that? 

Mr. Elwell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. I think the information I had was that your income 
from the city is $4,509.54, is that right ? 

Mr. Elwell. Something like tliat. 

Mr. Halley. And the rest is something like $630 a year? 

Mr. Elavell. That is right. 



ORGANIZED' CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



57 



Mr. Halley. 
you not ? 

Mr. Elwell. 

Mr. Halley. 
Would that be r 

Mr. Elwell. 

Mr. Halley. 
approximately. 

Mr. Elwell. 

Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Elwell. 

Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Elwell. 

Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Elwell, 

Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Elwell. 
I have a $1,500 

Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Elwell. 

Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Elw ELL. 

]VIr. Halley. 

Mr. Elwell. 

Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Elwell. 

Mr. Halley. 

Mr. El^vell. 

Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Elwell. 

Mr. Halley. 
chase it ? 

Mr. Elwell. 

Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Elwell. 

Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Elwell. 

Mr. Halley. 

Mr, Elwell. 

Mr. Halley, 

Mr. Elwell. 

Mr. Halley. 

Mr. EL^VELL. 

Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Elwell. 

Mr. Halley, 

Mr. Elwell, 

Mr. Halley, 

Mr, Elwell, 

Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Elwell. 

Mr. Halley, 

Mr. Elwell. 
to captain. 



But you have certain expenses on the building, have 

I have a mortgage on the building. 

The net on the building was something like $244.87? 

•ight? 

That could possibly be. 

Which would bring your net income to $4,754, 

I think so. 

Do you have any other income whatsoever ? 

No other income. 

You had no other income in the year 1949 ? 

No, sir. 

What assets do you have, Captain ? 

You mean in the line of my house ? 

Yes. 

I have my house, and then I have this one next door. 

mortgage 

What is your address? 

7058 Grays Avenue. 

Then you own a building adjacent to that also? 

Yes, sir ; right next door to it. 

What is the address of that? 

7056. 

What type of building are they ? 

They are private homes, brick buildings. 

How many rooms in each? 

Six rooms and a bath. 

Both six-room homes? 

Yes, sir. 

When did you build the second one, or did you pur- 

I purchased the second house in about 1940 or 1941. 

Could you state the purchase price? 

$2,500. 

Was that a cash price ? 

You mean cash price of it ? 

That is right. 

Yes. 

There was a mortgage ? 

There was a mortgage, a $1,500 mortgage. 

So the total price was $4,000. 

No ; the total price was $2,500. 

$2,500 total price? 

Yes, sir. 

You had to pay $1,000. in cash and $1,500 in mortgage? 

A thousand in equity. 

How long have you owned the house you live in ? 

About 1925 I moved in there. 

How long have you been on the police force ? 

Almost 28 years, 27 and 7 months. 

In various capacities ? 

I have been patrolman and came up from a patrolman 



58 ORGAJSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Do you own any other real estate ? 

Mr. Elavell. Now I have a property in Wildwood, N. J. 

Mr. Halley. What property do you have there ? 

Mr. Elw^ell. That is a duplex apartment. It was built in Sep- 
tember. I took possession in January 1950. 

Mr. Halley. Is that Wildwood out near Atlantic City? 

Mr. Elwell. No ; Wildwood, N. J. It is Pacific Avenue in Wild- 
wood, N. J. 

Mr. Halley. That is the township next to Atlantic City ; is it not ? 

Mr. Elwell. No ; you have to come over to Ocean City, I think. 

Mr. Halley. Pnit it is on the beach? 

Mr. Elwell. ] t is on the beach, on the Atlantic front. 

Mr. Halley. Yes. When did you acquire that house? 

Mr. Elwell. We be,2:an to build in September 1949. 

Mr. Halley. You say it is a two-family house? 

Mr. Elwell. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you occupy it yourself or rent it ? 

Mr. Elwell. I occupy the downstairs apartment, and the upstairs 
apartment is rented. 

Mr. Halley. To whom do you rent the upstairs ? 

Mr. Elwell. We rent it just in the summer. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat did it cost to erect that house ? 

Mr. Elw^ell. Approximately $15,000. 

Mr. Halley. Did you lay out cash for that or is that on a mortgage? 

Mr. Elwell. It is on a mortgage, a $5,000 mortgage against it. 

Mr. Halley. $10,000 you laid out in cash. 

Mr. Elwell. Approximately. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat did the land cost you on which the house is 
built ? 

Mr. Elwell. On the land, about $1,300. 

Mr. Halley. Did you pay cash for that? 

Mr. Elwell. I did. 

Mr. Halley. Do you own any other real estate? 

Mr. Elwell. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you own any stocks and bonds; you or your wife? 

Mr. Elwell. I have some stock with the A. T. & t., $1,300 or $1,400 
I paid for it. 

Mr. Halley. When did you acquire that? 

Mr. Elwell. In 1948. 

Mr. Halley. Do you own any other stocks or bonds ? 

Mr. Elwell. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. I have been addressing these questions to you. Would 
the answers apply to your wife as well ? 

Mr. Elwell. I didn't hear you. 

Mr. Halley. Does your wife own any property independent of 
yourself? 

Mr. Elw^eli^. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. No real estate or stocks and bonds ? 

Mr. Elwell. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Where do you have a bank account, Captain ? 

Mr. Elwell. I have a bank account in the City National Bank & 
Trust. 

Mr. Halley. In Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Elwell. In Philadelphia. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 59 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any other bank account ? 

Mr. Elwell. No ; I have no other bank account. 

Mr. Halley. Would you state approximately what your bank bal- 
ance is ? 

Mr. Elwell. About a thousand right now. 

Mr. Halley. About a thousand dollars. Do you have any safe 
deposit box? 

Mi. Elwell. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any cash moneys that you possess in any 
way at all ? 

Mr. Elwell. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any other assets in addition to those we 
have talked about? 

Mr. Elwell. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. None whatsoever, and your wife does not ? 

Mr. Elwt^ll. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any children ? 

Mr. Elwell. My children are all grown up, 

Mr. Halley. They are all grown up ? 

Mr. Elw^ell, I have one left out of the three, two are married. 

Mr. Halley. Have you in recent years made any gifts, substantial 
gifts, say in value of over $100, to your children ? 

Mr. Elwell. I did when one of them got married. I think I gave 
her $100. 

Mr. Halley. Anything else ? 

Mr. Elwell. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you own an automobile ? 

Mr. Elwell. I own an automobile. 

Mr. Halley. What kind? 

Mr. Elwell. I am buying it, I should say. The last car I bought 
was in 1940. Then I bought one in 1946. That was wrecked in 1949, 
and I am buying this other one now. 

Mr. Halley. What type of car is it ? 

Mr. Elwell. A Chrysler, 

Mr. Halley. What model ? 

Mr. Elwell. New Yorker. 

Mr. Halley. That is the laige one, is it not ? 

Mr. Elwell. That is the large — it is between the large. It is an 
8-cylinder car. 

Mr. Halley. An 8-cylinder car. 

The Chairman". That is the large one. 

Mr. Halley. Did your children go to college ? 

Mr, Elwell. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Captain, we have been talking to Patrolman McDon- 
ald. I don't think there is any mystery about the ditf'erences between 
you and Patrolman McDonald. Is it a fact that on May 3, 1950, he 
arrested a man named Jack Rogers and charged him with writing 
numbers? 

Mr. Elwell. That is true. 

Mr. Halley. And taking horse bets? 

Mr. Elwell. That is true. 

Mr, Halley, That he reported immediately in writing that Rogers 
had offered him a bribe ? 

Mr. Elwell. No, sir. 



60 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. That is not so? 

Mr, Elwell. That is not true. 

Mr. Halley. What would the truth be with respect to that? 

Mr. Elwell. Could I go on ? I will try to go on if you permit me. 

Mr. Halley. Would you prefer to state it your own way? 

Mr. Elwell. Yes. Would you like me to ? 

The Chairman. Make it as brief as possible. 

Mr. Elwell. I will do it as quickly as I can. 

Mr. Halley. Surely. 

Mr. Elwell. I have no records. The records are now in the hands 
of the city solicitor because of mandamus proceedings. I don't have 
any, but I will try to get it closely as I can, I think it was May 3, and 
I feel certain that was on a Wednesday night. 

On May 3, 1 was acting police inspector in the absence of Inspector 
Murphy. I came to my quarters from my station from 55 and Pine, 
and I arrived at the station house at 85 and Woodland Avenue at 
about 5 o'clock. I proceeded to my office and then I was making 
arrangements to go to dinner, to go home for supper. On my way out 
close to 6 o'clock, House Sergeant Hall called my attention to the 
fact that the officer had made an arrest of horses, numbers, and leads. 
He had made out a form that was not complete, and this type of form 
is the only form that a police officer makes that goes to the superin- 
tendent of police over the head of a commanding officer. 

I might say, if you will permit me, that this form someday 6 or 8 
months from now that officer will be confronted with that by the 
assistant district attorney when he is trying his case. 

That is the importance of the form. 

So I said to Sergeant Hall, would you have the officer come in and 
I will wait a little longer and we will get him straightened up, know- 
ing that he is an officer not usually in our district. He came from the 
motor bandit patrol, I would help him. 

So he came in off the street, I should think he arrived about 10 or 
15 minutes after 6, He, Sergeant Hall and myself went into my office. 
We made out his regular form in which he stated that he had arrested 
this man at Sixty-second and Woodland Avenue and had at the time 
searched him and found seven slips of paper, three slips indicating 
horse play, three slips indicating numbers play, and one slip indicat- 
ing lead play. He placed him under custody and sent him to the 
station house and had gotten also $120 in cash and some change. 

The officer had a conversation with the man, and so forth, conform- 
ing with that form of ours. It came close to 7 o'clock and he was 
ready to go out and I was ready to go out, and the sergeant was. 
There was quite a burst of furor in the roll room, which was a good 
40 feet from my office, to this effect, and these are the words that were 
used, vulgar words : "No G, D. cop is going to rob me," I was on my 
way out the hallway. The street sergeant and the young man, Galla- 
gher, Patrolman Gallagher who helps and assists the house sergeant, 
were coming toward me. The street sergeant was Leo Broclerick. 
"Captain," he said, "this man is hollering that he has been robbed; 
that he has been short-changed." 

I said, "Well, come in the office," 

McDonald was in back of me. He said nothing. Sergeant Hall 
was to one side of me, and he said nothing. So we sat down and I 
said "Who arrested you?" 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 61 

He said "He did," pointing over my shoulder, and I looked and it 
T\-as McDonald, Officer McDonald. 

I said to the house sergeant, "Did you slate him ?" 

He said "No; I didn't." I said : "Is there any moneys on the books 
for him?" 

He said, "There isn't." 

"Wlio slated him?" 

He said "Sergeant Kenney." 

I said : "We will have to get a hold of Sergeant Kenney." 

So I called out to the young man in the house sergeant's room named 
Gallagher to get hold of Sergeant Kenney and have him come in. I 
turned and at that moment I said : "It is strange what happened to 
this man's money. There is nothing on the book. I don't understand 
it." 

McDonald spoke up and said, "I have it," and pulled out an en- 
velope, a shaggy, ragged, dirty envelope, one that had gone around 
the circuit. 

He said : "I have it." And he counted it. I counted it. I counted 
it and it was $127.25. There were $124 in bills and $3.25 in change. 

I wasn't so sure of it; so I counted it again. I well remember that 
there were 15 fives; there were 4 tens, and 9 ones, and some odd 
change. 

This man, I may say, this Rogers, said that this cop, as he put it, 
"got me for $250 when he locked me up, and he stood me in the door- 
way and took my money." 

I said : "There is nothing in the books for it." 

"I want my money. No God-damned cop," he was saying to me, 
"is going to take my money away from me." 

I said : "You are too noisy. Sit down. If we have your money, 
we are not going to keep it anyway." 

I said to McDonald: "You see the position you put yourself in. 
Had you turned this money in. whatever you got, over to the house 
sergeant at the time for recording, this would not have happened." 

He said : "You got $250. You said in your own statement you got 
$120," in his own handwriting. He handed me the envelope now, 3 
hours later. I counted it to be $7.25 more than you say it was. "I will 
have to take this man's statement." 

At that time Sergeant Kenney had arrived, making three sergeants 
in the room, with the officer, the prisoner, and myself. I will take 
this man's statement and I will refer it to the superintendent for dis- 
position. However, the man made his statement. He signed his 
statement. 

I said to the oflficer : "In the face of all this, the perilous position you 
have put yourself in, I will have to refer it to the superintendent of 
police and in the meantime you are suspended." 

Senator O'Conor. May I ask a question right there. Was any ref- 
erence made to any other moneys that he had on him at the time, the 
accused ? 

Mr. Elwell. You mean Rogers had had some money on him ? 

Senator O 'Conor. Yes. 

Mr. Elwell. He did. He said something later, "They didn't get 
this," and he pulled out something. Just how much it was, I do not 

68958— 51— pt. 11 5 



62 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

kiiow. Somewhere in his shirt or somewhere. They didn't get this, 
or he didn't get this. 

Senator O'Conor. Did that bring about further conversation with 
McDonald? 

Mr. Elwell. No, sir. I may say this : In my experience with this 
type of case, where the prisoner accuses a police officer of taking some- 
thing or doing something, the police officer almost upsets your office 
to get at him, to slug him or thump him or curse him or do something 
or other. McDonald sat there just as mute as could be, never admitted 
it, never denied it. 

We are at the point, which is about 8 : 15 at any rate, where I had 
suspended him and I said "That is all." 

He said, "Is that all for me?" 

I said "Yes" and he said, "I have something to say." 

I said, "What is it?" 

He said, "I have an additional charge against him. Would you take 
my word as an officer against this thief or criminal ?" 

I said, "Is he a criminal? How do you know?" To me he was 
just another horse man that the officer had arrested. I never saw the 
man before. He said "Yes," and I said, "I don't know him to be a 
criminal. However, if you know he is a criminal, you left yourself 
in a precarious position by not accounting for his money. You should 
have given it to the house sergeant and it w^ould have been witnessed 
right there, and if this man had a complaint to make he would have 
made it right then. He wouldn't be making it 3 hours later." 

Senator O'Conor. Did he give any details as to the extent of his 
criminal record? 

Mr. Elwell. He said he had a long record, sir. I don't know what 
it was until the next day when I got the record back from city halL 
The detective bureau sent us back a record of the man to be given to 
the officer to take to the hearing to present it to the magistrate in the 
morning. 

Senator O'Conor. You didn't think it sufficiently important to 
find out the nature of the record in order to determine whetlier his 
word w^ould be sufficient upon which to suspend an officer ? 

Mr. Elwell. Under the circumstances, where the charges are made 
out in public that way, in the presence of other officers, there is no 
alternative for a commanding officer but to suspend him pending the 
disposition of the superintendent. The superintendent could have put 
him back immediately or the director of public safety could have put 
him back immediately, but we can't do it. Once you suspend a man,, 
you take that status away from him, and the captain has no right to 
reinstate liim. 

The officer then said to me, "I have additional charges against that 
man." 

I said, "What are they?" 

He said, "Bribery." 

I said, "When did this happen?'' i thought probably it happened 
when I was out of the room. 

He said, "This afternoon." 

"Where ?" He said, "On the street." 

"When was this?" He said, "When I arrested him." 

I looked at the document. I said, "Did you charge him witk 
bribery?" 

He said "No." 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 63 

Isaicl, "Whydidivtyou?" 

He AYOuldn't make any answer. I said: "Tomorrow morning I 
want you to go get a warrant from the magistrate charging liim with 
bribery, attempting to bribe and bring it back to me." 

He said: "I have additional charges against that Caserta." 

I said. "Which Caserta?" 

He said, "Mike Caserta." 

I said : "Is he involved in this case ?" He said "Yes." 

I asked what di»l he do. 

"He attempted to bribe me this afternoon on the station-house 
steps." 

I said, "Did you arrest him ?" and he said he did. 

"What did you charge him with?" 

He said, "Disorderly conduct." 

I said : "Why didn't you charge him wdth bribery?" 

He wouldn't answer that. I said: "Now, tomorrow you get a 
warrant for him and bring both warrants back to me." 

These men had been released on copies of the charge approximately 
6:40 at night. This Rogers had just been brought back close to 
7 o'clock from city hall in the custody of two officers. When he went 
to the desk he was automatically relieved on the basis of this copy of 
the charge, certificate of arrest. Apparently, bail was paid and he 
was permitted to go. 

Having that in mind, I felt sure we would be all right in the 
morning, and I arranged to have one fellow held over a little while 
in the morning until McDonald could come back from Fifty-fifth 
and Pine, to put his testimony in there. That was done. 

The case went from me. I took it over to the inspector. I was 
left from then on. I took the case in to the superintendent of police ; 
but, as far as further prosecution, I had no more to do with it. I 
wasn't consulted any more, and I haven't been to this very day. I 
was never called in to answer. I wish you gentlemen would consider 
this with me. There has been a lot said about this case in the city. I 
have been slandered pretty well. The fact that I can't say anything 
or couldn't have said anything is because this is a case pending before 
the superintendent of police. No matter what anyone else said, I 
couldn't say anything in reply without permission of the superin- 
tendent. So, I stood nmte all the time. 

Mr. Halley. Did you make a contemporaneous record in writing 
yourself of these events? 

Mr. Elwell. I beg your pardon ? 

Mr. Halley. Did you write out these charges yourself at the time'* 

Mr. Elw^ell. To prefer against the officer? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Elwell. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Mr. Halley. You made a full statement of the case? 

Mr. Ela\t:ll. Very much so. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have a copy you could let the committee have ? 

Mr. Elwell. I don't have it now. I have none of those records. 

Mr. Halley. Could we have it tomorrow morning? 

Mr. Elwell. I don't think you could, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't keep a copy of that yourself ? 

Mr, Elw^ell. I did keep a copy, but it is in the hands of the city 
solicitor because he is going to defend the city in a mandamus 
proceeding. 



64 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 

Mr. Halley. Wliere could we get it ? 

Mr. Stein. I will be glad to call up the city solicitor. 

Mr. Elwell. Mr. Kyan should have it. 

The Chairman. Mr. Stein can get it. 

Mr. Stein. I think so. 

Mr. Halley. You wrote out such a statement? 

Mr. Elwell. I made charges against him ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Captain Elwell, did you know Mike Caserta before 
the 5th of May 1950? 

Mr. Elwell. Yes, I have known him for a good many years. He 
lives only three or four blocks from where I do. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had social relationships with him? 

Mr. Elw:ell. No social relations with him. 

Mr. Halley. Any business relations? 

Mr. Elwell. No business of any kind. 

Mr. Halley. How did you know him ? Would you see him on the 
street ? 

Mr. Elwell. I knew him when he was a little boy. I have lived 
out there all my life. The whole family of them lived there- 
Mr. Halley. Do your families visit ? 

Mr. Elwell. No. 

Mr. Halley. You don't see him at restaurants or bars ? 

Mr. Elwell. No. 

Mr. Halley. Nothing like that? 

Mr. Elwell. No. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat business is Mike Caserta in ? 

Mr. Elwell. He has the reputation of being in this lottery business, 
this horse. 

Mr. Halley. Policy business? 

Mr. Elwell. The numbers business, horse business. 

Mr. Stein. We call it numbers here in Philadelphia. 

Mr. Halley. Do you believe he is in the numbers business, Captain? 

Mr. Elwell. I have never caught him. I have never seen him. 

Mr. Halley. Is that his reputation? 

Mr. Elwt:ll. That is generally his reputation. 

Mr. Halley. Does he live in the district over which you have 
charge ? 

Mr. Elwell. Yes. I had charge. 

Mr. Halley. For how many years ? 

Mr. Elwell. I was there about 2 years. 

Mr. Halley. What other known form of making a living has Mike 
Caserta to your knowledge ? 

Mr. Elwell. I do not know. 

Mr, Halley. Would you say, then, that he has no visible, honest 
means of support? 

Mr. Elwell. I wouldn't say that because I don't know anything 
about it other than what others say. 

Mr. Halley. You are the captain in that district or were, and have 
known this man since you were both boys ? 

Mr. Elwell. I knew his whole family. 

Mr. Halley. Is he a man with a visible, honest means of making a 
livelihood or isn't he? 

Mr. Elwell. I don't know him that well. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 65 

Mr. Halley. To the extent that 3^011 as a police officer keep track of 
the people in your district 

Mr. Stein. I think he has answered. 

Mr. Elwell. I don't know his business that well. I have never 
seen him that much. I haven't seen him that much. I say I lived in 
the community where he lives, you see. 

Mr. Halley. Is it not your duty as a police captain to have some 
idea of the people in your district w^ho apparently have no honest 
means of earning a living ? 

Mr. Elwell. It is my duty, and I would say only from information 
that I have that he is in this numbers racket. I don't know of any 
other business that he is in, any other kind of business. I don't know 
of any. 

Mr. Halley. Mike Caserta was arrested and booked in your station 
house on May 5, 1950, some time before 6 p. m. ? 

Mr. Elwell. On Iklay 5 ? 

Mr. Halley. No, May 3, 1950, is that correct? 

Mr. Elwell. May 3 he was arrested according to the books, by 
McDonald. 

Mr. Halley. Some time before 6 o'clock in the afternoon, is that 
right ? 

Mr. Elwell. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. I understand there was quite a row in the wardroom 
or main room of the station house when he was arrested. 

Mr. Elwell. I wasn't there. 

Mr. Halley. Weren't you in the back room, in the office? 

Mr. Elwell. No, I was at Fifty-fifth and Pine. I hadn't come in 
yet. 

Mr. Halley. When did you first come into the station house ? 

Mr. Elwell. I came in, I would say, around 5 o'clock. 

Mr. Halley. Around 5 o'clock. 

Mr. Elwell, Yes. I had been over to Fifty-fifth and Pine until 
after roll call. 

Mr. Halley. Had he already been locked up at that time ? 

JMr. El\\t:ll. I don't know that, 

Mr. Halley. You weren't told that when you came into the station? 

Mr. Ela\t:ll. No one told me until the officer told me that he wanted 
to prefer these charges. 

Mr, Halley. Who told you that Rogers was locked up ? 

Mr. Elwell. Rogers was brought in and slated by this other officer, 
this McDonald. He was slated by McDonald, and the house sergeant 
told me when I was going out at 6 o'clock, when I was going home, 
that McDonald had this arrest of a numbers man. 

Mr. Halley, Of Rogers ? 

Mr. Elwell. Yes, Rogers, and he didn't make this statement. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't make what statement? 

Mr. Elwell. Tliis form that has to be made out. 

Mr. Halley. On what subject? 

Mr. Elwell, On the arrest of lottery or horse racing. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat goes on that form ? 

Mr, Elwell. A brief history of the arrest and the conversation with 
the defendant and answers made of course by the defendant, and any 
evidence that was taken. 



66 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE^ 

Mr. Halley. Wouldn't the sergeant at the desk get that when he 
booked the man, when he booked Rogers ? Wouldn't the sergeant in 
the ordinary course of business insist on getting that from the officer ? 

Mr. Elwell. He would get that charge from the officer. Then of 
course he should and must have the officer come and sit down with 
him and the prisoner and go over it in the absence of the commanding 
officer. 

Mr. Halley. Wliy didn't the sergeant get that information ? 

Mr. Elwell, He didn't get it. I don't know w^hy. 

Mr. Halley. When did you first find out he didn't ? 

Mr. Elwell. The sergeant told me on my way out. I said bring 
the man in and we will get it from him. 

Mr. Halley. As the captain in charge there, did you have an idea 
who was being locked up in your district ? 

Mr. Elwell. At that time ? Or any time ? 

Mr. Halley. On any day. 

Mr. Elwell. No. 

Mr. Halley. You wouldn't know who was being booked or who 
wasn't? 

Mr. Elwell. Not unless I went out and looked at the book or it was 
called to my attention or when we get our arrests on 554. 

Mr. Stein. I don't mean to interrupt but I think there is a mis- 
understanding. He was not the captain in charge of that district. 
He was the acting inspector for the district, just stopping in there. 
He was the captain of another district where he left after roll call to 
come up there to do his duties as the inspector. So he was not the 
captain. 

Mr. Elwell. If I can clear it for you, that day 

Mr. Halley. I understand. 

Mr. Elwell. I was the inspector. 

The Chairman. Let's get on. We are taking up too much time 
with this. 

Mr. Halley. Wasn't Caserta actually arrested that afternoon be- 
fore 6 o'clock? 

Mr. Elwell. Yes, he was. 

Mr. Halley. Right in the station house? 

Mr. Elwell. I don't know that it was in the station house, I wasn't 
there. I hear 



Mr. Halley. He was booked in your station house. 

Mr. Elwell. He was booked in the station house. 

Mr. Halley. For disorderly conduct. 

Mr. Elwell. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Caserta is a pretty well known and important persoo 
in your district ? 

Mr. Elwell. No. McDonald says that, too. 

Mr. Halley. He is pretty well known, isn't he ? 

Mr. Elwell. He should be known by any officer who is there any 
length of time. 

Mr. Halley. Wouldn't it be brought to your attention that Caserta 
had been arrested? 

Mr. Elwell. Not necessarily, no more than anyone else. 

Mr. Halley. But it was brought to your attention that Rogers was 
arrested. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCEi 67 

Mr. Elwell. On my Avay out, as I say, the house sergeant called my 
attention to this particular one. You see, if I may clear this up, 
Caserta was arrested for disorderly conduct. The other fellow was 
arrested for numbers. Caserta just goes along the line as disorderly 
conduct arrest and the regular i'orm is made out for him, 554, as we 
call it, criminal memoranda. Biit on numbers arrests, narcotics ar- 
rests, vice arrests of any kind, there is a special form that the officer 
has to make up and sign himself. 

Mr. Halley. Captain, do you mind if I ask a personal question? 
Do you have a scar on the pinkie of your left hand or do you habitually 
wear a ring there? 

Mr. Elwell. This hand? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Elwell. Yes ; I wear a ring. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have a reason for not wearing it today ? 

Mr. Elwell. Yes ; I had a sore finger. 

Mr. Halley. What kind of ring do you ordinarily wear ? 

Mr. Elwell. A little gold ring. 

Mr. Halley. Does it have a jewel in it? 

Mr. Elwell. No. 

Mr. Halley. You had no particular reason for not wearing it be- 
fore this committee ? 

Mr. Elwell. No ; I did not. In fact I forgot it. I washed my hands 
and left it off. 

Mr. Halley. I was just wondering because apparently you wear it 
customarily. There is a very noticeable ring mark on your left finger. 

Mr. Elwell. It could be, and it is. 

Mr. Halley. Would you have any expLanation to the committee of 
how you accumulated enough money for, as I total it up, $10,000 for a 
house, $1,400 for bonds, $1,300 for a lot, $1,000 in the bank, $1,500 in 
cash in another house? That alone would be approximately $15,000 
plus an automobile which you say you are paying for, which must cost 
at least $3,000, a Chrysler New Yorker. 

Mr. Elwell. Yes ; but I didn't pay that much for it. I had another 
car that I had in 1940 that I turned in. I had an allowance on that 
car. Then when I lost my other car the insurance company 

Mr. Halley. What did the Chrysler New Yorker cost you ? 

Mr. Elwell. You mean the selling price of a Chrysler New Yorker? 
I think it is $3,145. 

Mr. Halley. Just in general would you state how you accumulated 
those funds on your salary as a captain ? 

Mr. Elwell. I have been in the department since 1923. I have been 
27 years in the police department, and I have lived a pretty good life 
and taken care of myself and my money. 

Mr. Halley. Have you always had an automobile ? 

Mr. Elwell. No, I haven't always had an automobile. I had an 
automobile from I guess about 1936 or '38. I bought an automobile, 
an old car, a used car. 

Mr. Halley. Why did you feel it necessary to make the statement 
that the officer had taken some money from Kogers ? 

Mr. Elwell. May I ask you, will you ask me that again? 

Mr. Halley. Why did you feel it necessary to accept the statement 
that the officer had taken some money from Rogers ? 



68 ORGAKIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE^ 

Mr. Stein. Wait a minute. I don't want to interfere, but I think 
there is a misunderstanding. I think the captain told you it made 
no difference whose word he took. He merely suspended the officer 
because he took the money, put it in his pocket and didn't turn it in to 
the house sergeant. That is the only reason why he suspended him. 
As I understood the testimony, it didn't make any difference whether 
it was Rogers or the most reputable citizen in Philadelphia. 

Mr. Halley. For what did the officer book Eogers, for numbers 
writing ? 

Mr. Elwell. Numbers writing, horse writing. 

Mr. Halley. He came in and booked him for numbers writing. 
Would the sergeant book him unless he had some policy slips to give 
the sergeant ? 

Mr. Elwell. He introduced as evidence some seven slips that he 
had. 

Mr. Halley. Wouldn't the sergeant in that case be absolutely cer- 
tain to say, "Did you take any money from him?" How could that 
possibly have been avoided at the time of the arrest ? 

Mr. Elwell. The officer exhibited a bundle of money to the desk. 

Mr. Halley. I see. 

Mr. Elwell. He exhibited it, but he didn't allow the sergeant to 
count it and he didn't count it in front of the house sergeant. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't the sergeant go through the regular routine and 
have the money produced ? 

Mr. Elwell. He didn't get a chance. McDonald picked the money 
up again and put it in his pocket. 

Mr. Halley. The sergeant runs the station house? 

Mr. Elwell. That is what happened. This was a change time, and 
one sergeant left the other one to handle it from w^here one left off. 
Sergeant Hall took over where Kenney left off. It is the custom that 
they go out ahead of time. When it comes quitting time, they run 
out and leave whatever is there for the next man to take over. 

Mr. Halley. The money was counted in front of the sergeant, was 
it not? 

Mr. Elwell. It was not. 

Mr. Halley. Whose fault would that be? If the money was pro- 
duced at the sergeant's desk 

Mr. Elwell. It was. 

Mr. Halley. And the money wasn't counted — the sergeant didn't 
order it counted — whose fault is that? 

Mr. Elwell. It is the fault of the sergeant for not doing it. He 
should have done it. I asked him why he didn't do it. He said 
McDonald put the money in his pocket and walked away. 

Mr. Halley. Doesn't it look to you as though everybody in that 
station house was just petrified for fear of arresting this fellow Rogers, 
and McDonald was just standing there with his money and policy 
slips and nobody even wanted to count the money ? 

Mr. Elw^ell. I don't know about that; but no matter who Rogers 
was or who he wasn't, the officer arresting him should have turned 
it in to the house sergeant and have it properly recorded. 

Mr. Halley. He put it on the desk. 

Mr. Elwell. He pulled it away, so the sergeant said. 

Mr. Halley. Did vou suspend the sergeant? 

Mr. Elwell. No ; I didn't. 



I 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 69 

]Mr. Halley. AVho was in charge at that point when the money was 
on the sergeant's desk ? 

Mr. Elwell. The house sergeant was in charge. 
Mr. Halley. And the money was right there on his desk? 
Mr. Elwell. Yes. He says it was on his desk. I wasn't there. 
I am only taking what the house sergeant said. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't the sergeant fail to do his duty then in taking 
possession of that money when it was on his desk? 

Mr. Elwell. I asked him that question, why he didn't. "Wliy didn't 
you take the money?" He said, "I couldn''t take it when McDonald 
walked away, walked out with the money in his pocket." 

Mr. Halley. The sergeant was the boss at that point. He was run- 
ning that station house. In any event, you did not suspend the ser- 
geant ? 

Mr. Elwell. I did not ; no, sir. 
The Chairman. Let's get on. 
Mr, Halley. I have no other questions right now. 
The Chairman. Any questions, Mr. Klein ? 

Mr. Klein. I have no questions. You will submit the books to the 
committee investigators tomorrow morning? 

Mr. Stein. Yes, sir. Well, let me make this rquest. I have sat 
here all day long. I would like to make an appointment at your con- 
venience and mine, without having to sit here. 

Mr. Klein. We are in room 4010 in this building, and you can come 
up there at any time tomorrow morning and there will be someone 
to receive them. 

Mr. Stein. Do you want him to leave them here ? 
Mr. Klein. Yes. 
Mr. Stein. He has no books. 

Mr. Klein. We want his back bank statements and his canceled 
checks. 

Mr. Stein. For what period of time ? 
The Chairman. Any questions. Senator O'Conor? 
Senator O'Conor. No. 
Mr. Stein. Just for the year 
Mr. Klein. Your subpena states the period, 
Mr. Halley. Do you want to say something ? 
Mr. Elwell. McDonald knows Caserta very well. 
Mr. Stein. I just want to say this, to bring out this point. Was 
McDonald on duty ? 

Mr. Elwell. McDonald was coming on duty. He hadn't arrived 
on duty. This occurred, according to the records, at 3 : 15. 

The Chairman. Captain Elwell, do you know any officers under 
your command who have accepted pay-offs from any of these numbers 
writers ? 
Mr. Elwell. No, sir ; I do not. 

The Chairman. There is a rumor about town, quite well known — 
of course, you know it — that they operate systematically and that there 
is pay-off to the police. 

Mr. Elwell. It has never come to my attention. 

The Chairman. You have heard the rumor ? 

Mr. Elwell. I have heard the rumor. I read it in the paper. 

The Chairman. But you have never known anything about it? 



70 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Elwell. No, sir; I have never. 

The Chairman. Is it possible for them to operate on such an ex- 
tensive scale without getting some protection? 

Mr. Elwell. I don't know. I think they are rather brazen to take 
a chance on doing anything. The average police officer walking about 
in uniform can either take them or let them go. It strikes me that 
they haven't been taking him off the street. 

Senator O'Conor. That they have or have not 

Mr. Elwell, That they have not. 

The Chairman. Then they haven't been very diligent in bringing 
in these people. 

Mr, Elwell, They have not. 

The Chairman. Is that your idea ? 

Mr. Elwell, That is right. 

The Chairman. Are you still a captain now, or assistant superin- 
tendent? 

Mr, El-nvell. I am still a captain. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Captain. 

Mr. Elwell. All right, sir. 

Mr. Stein. Let me ask this : All you want is the records. You don't 
want the captain tomorrow? 

The Chairman, We don't want the captain, just the records. 

Mr. Halley. Your associate, Mr, Gray, represents Stromberg and 
Weisberg, and you represent the policemen? 

Mr, Stein. He doesn't know anything about it. 

Mr. Halley. I am sure of that. I would like the record to show it. 

Mr. Stein. I have only office connections. If you feel it is repre- 
hensible, I will withdraw it. 

Mr. Halley. I didn't say it. I just want the record to show it. 
May the record show that you represent this Captain Elwell — and 
what other police captains? 

Mr. Stein. Inspector Driscoll, and I represent Captain McBride. 

Mr, Halley, Who is your boss ? 

Mr, Stein. William A. Gray. 

Mr, Halley. You occupy offices together. 

Mr, Stein. That is right. 

Mr. Halley, Are you partners? 

Mr, Stein. No. 

Mr, Halley, Do you receive a salary from him ? 

Mr. Stein. I do. 

Mr. Halley. Whom does William A. Gray represent here today ? 

Mr. Stein, I don't know. It is news to me, 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Gray represents Harry Stromberg, also known as 
Nig Rosen, and also Willie Weisberg. 

Mr, Halley. Perhaps before we examine Mr, Rosen and Mr, Weis- 
berg we ought to have Mr. Gray in to verify that fact. Would you do 
that, Mr, Chairman? 

The Chairman, Yes, indeed. Let me understand. You say he 
pays you a salary. 

Mr. Stein, That is right. The arrangement is this: He pays me 
a salary, I have office space and secretarial service, and I am allowed 
to handle cases of my own, and whichever cases I handle of my own 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE, 71 

the fees from those cases are entirely and solely mine. In other words, 
he just 

The Chairman. What does he pay you a salary for? Do you 
handle some cases for him? 

Mr. Stein. Yes; I do. 

The Chairman. You handle some cases for him. 

Mr. Stein. Yes ; that is right. 

The Chairman. Are you handling these captains' cases for him? 

Mr. Stein. No ; I do not. 

The Chairman. Are they your clients or his ? 

Mr. Stein. They are my clients. I tell you how it happened. 
John Driscoll, the inspector, is a very good friend of mine. He told 
me about this subpena and asked me to come down with him. This 
morning while I was here it was only then that Vincent Elwell and 
Luke McBride also asked me to sit in with them. Neither did know 
that Mr. Gray was going to be here until Mr. Klein just mentioned 
it. I am sure if you call in Mr. Gray he will verify it. If you think 
it is prejudicial to my client, I would rather 

The Chairman. We are not passing upon the matter of legal 
ethics or who you can represent or wdio you can't. That is a matter 
for you and your own conscience. In order not to tie up further 
today you or your clients, we will let you go until in the morning ; you 
can tell them to be back tomorrow. You can tell them out there now. 

Mr. Stein. I do want to state clearly for the record that I had 
no knowledge of any kind that Mr. Gray was going to be here with 
anybody else. 

The Chairman. Very well ; let's get on. 

Mr. Gray. My name is William A. Gray. I am representing Mr. 
Harry Stromberg; and I want, if I may, for the record, to say that 
Mr. Stromberg was subpenaed 

Mr. Halley. Could we get the appearances before you make any 
statement? 

Mr. Gray. The name of the witness is Harry Stromberg. My name 
is William A. Gray, of the Philadelphia bar, 2100 Girard Trust Co. 
Building. 

I want to say with respect to Mr. Stromberg that he was subpenaed 
to appear here on Monday next, October 16 ; and, discussing the matter 
with Mr. Klein, he asked me whether I would honor the subpena as of 
today. I talked to him yesterday, I guess it was, or Wednesday about 
the matter. I told him that I would be glad to try to arrange to get 
Mr. Stromberg here from New York, and I immediately did that. 
So he is here not as a voluntary witness but here in response to your 
subpena, considering the date has been changed. 

The Chairman. We will let the record show that he is here under 
subpena and that the subpena for his appearance on Monday has by 
consent been amended so that he appears under the subpena today. 

Anything else ? 

Mr. Gray. One other thing. I want to say that under the immunity 
statutes of the United States I am asking the record to note that on 
behalf of Mr. Stromberg I am claiming immunity from any further 
prosecution or the use of this evidence against him in any other pro- 
ceedings in the United States. 

The Chairman. Very well ; your claim is made a part of the record. 

Mr. Gray. Thank you. 



72 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman, Will you rise and be sworn? You do solemnly 
swear the testimony you will give this committee will be the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF HARRY STROMBERG, MIAMI BEACH, FLA., ACCOM- 
PANIED BY WILLIAM A. GRAY, ATTORNEY AT LAW, PHILA- 
DELPHIA, PA. 

Mr. Halley. May the record show that Mr. Goldschein and his 
assistants have left the room. 

Mr.' Gray. That doesn't mean anything. I haven't the slightest ob- 
jection to their being here if they want to. 

The Chairman. I think they didn't want to be here during the time 
that Mr. Stromberg testified. 

Mr. Halley. What is your full name ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Harry Stromberg. 

Mr. Halley. Are you known by any aliases ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I am known by Harry Rosen, but I don't use that. 

Mr. Halley. What is your address ? 

Mr. Stromberg. 4236 Pine Tree Drive, Miami Beach, Fla. 

Mr. Halley, Do you have a New York address ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I haven't any now outside of my brother's house 
for a while. 

Mr. Halley. Where is your brother's house in New York ? 

Mr. Stromberg. 2701 Grand Concourse, 

Mr. Halley. What was your last New York address ? 

Mr. Stromberg. 25 Central Park West, New York City. 

Mr, Halley. Until when did you live there ? 

Mr. Stromberg. June or July ; I am not sure. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever live in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Halley. During what period ? 

Mr. Stromberg. During what period ? About 8 or 9 years ago. 

Mr. Halley. Wlien did you first come here ? 

Mr. Stromberg. About 18 years ago. 

Mr. Halley. Wliere were you born? 

Mr. Stromberg. Russia. 

Mr. Halley. When did you come to the United States? 

Mr. Stromberg. AVlien I was about 4 years old. That would make 
it about 1906. 

Mr. Halley. To what city did you come ? 

Mr. Stromberg. New York City, 

Mr, Halley. You have lived in New York City continuously from 
1906 until what date? 

Mr. Stromberg. Until 18 years, when I went to Philadelphia. 

Mr. Halley. About 1932? 

Mr. Stromberg. Approximately that, 1933 or 1931. 

Mr. Halley. Are you a citizen ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I am. 

Mr. Halley. When did you become a citizen ? 

Mr. Stromberg. About 5 or 6 years ago. I was a citizen under my 
father's papers years back, but I have my own. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 73 

Mr. Hallet. Have you ever been convicted of a crime? 

Mr. Strombekg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. "Will you state the offense and the circumstances and 
the place and so forth ? 

Mr. Stromrerg. 1921. burglary. 

Mr. Halley. Where? 

JSIr. Stromberg. New York Cit}'. 

Mr. Halley. Convicted? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. No, I pleaded guilty. 

]Mr. Halley. You pleaded guilty. Were you sentenced to a jail 
term ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. What was that? 

Mr. Stromberg. About 13 months. 

Mr. Halley. Were vou previously convicted of juvenile delinquen- 
cy in 1915 in New York? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I was. 

Mr. Halley. Was that your first conviction, in 1915? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think so. 

Mr. Halley. What was your second conviction of a crime? 

]Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Burglary in 1922? I might say I am not trying to 
trip you up. 

Mr. Stromberg. I know that. It is so long ago. 

Mr. Halley. I will ask leading questions. 

In 1918 were you arrested for robbery but were discharged, in New 
York? 

Mr. Stromberg. If you would call it arrested for robbery. I was 
just a victim of circumstances. 

Mr. Halley. Anyway you were discharged. 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. In 1920 were you arrested for robbery, discharged 
but returned to a Jewish protectory for violation of parole? 

Mr. Stromberg. I believe so. 

Mr. Halley. How long did you spend in the Jewish protectory ? 

Mr. Stromberg. In 1920 ? 

Mr. Halley. No: altogether. 

Mr. Stroimberg. About 2 years. 

Mr. Halley. Then in 1922 you had this burglary conviction? v 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. And went to the State penitentiary at Ehnira ? 

Mr. Stromberg. The reformatory, not State penitentiary, 
reformatory. 

Mr. Halley. Was Neddie Herbert involved in that conviction ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Neddie Herbert ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Halley. He was in the Jewish protectory the same time you 
were? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; but I came away before him. 

Mr. Halley. You have known him ever since, though ; is that right? 

Mr. Stromberg. We lived on the East Side all our lives. 

Mr. Haijley. Then in 1925 Avere you arrested for robbery but 
discharsfed ? 



74 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 

Mr. Stromberg. If you want to call it for robbery. 

Mr. Halley. Yon were discharged. 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I was discharged. 

Mr. Halley. And yon were arrested ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. If the record shows robbery, that is apparently what 
the charge was. 

Mr. Stromberg. An officer can pnt any charge sometimes. 

Mr. Halley. In 1928 were yon arrested for reckless discharge of 
firearms on a highway and larceny of an antomobile, and were you 
charged with those offenses ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Kepeat that again, please. 

Mr. Halley. Were yon charged in 1928 with reckless discharge of 
firearms on a highway and larceny of an automobile? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember that. I positively don't know. 
I don't deny it, but I don't remember it. 

Mr. Halley. Do yon remember appearing in court and having a 
directed verdict of not guilty by Judge Shaw ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Of robbery, of a gun ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Halley. In 1930 

Mr. Stromberg. Excuse me a minute. May I speak to Mr. Gray ? 

Mr. Halley. Sure. 

(Witness and counsel conferring.) 

Mr, Gray. Tell it to him as you told it to me. 

Mr. Stromberg. I was arrested with a gun. T don't remember the 
year. 

Mr. Halley. Yes? 

Mr. Stromberg. The grand jury threw the indictment out. I don't 
remember about an automobile. 

Mr. Halley. All right. 

In 1930 were you arrested on a prohibition violation? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I was. 

Mr. Halley. I think there was no disposition of that, is that right? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think we got 6 months' probation. I am not sure. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. That is one you added, and I appreciate 
your frankness. The record doesn't show that. 

By the way, you were in the bootlegging business during the prohi- 
bition days? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
might incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. T am referring now to a period before the year 1932. 

Mr. Stromberg, I refuse to answer on the ground it might in- 
criminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. I advise you that the statute of limitations has ob- 
viously run on any national prohibition offense prior to 1932. 

Mr. Stromberg. I still refuse to answer that question on the ground 
it might incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

The Chairman. The chairman directs you to answer and in the 
opinion of the chairman you have no immunity, no privilege not to 
answer because in any event it has been so long ago that no charge 
could grow out of anything you said about it. 



ORGANIZED' CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 75 

Mr. Gray. Will you allow nie, Mr. Chairniaii, to reply? Do you 
prefer to be addressed as Senator or Chairman ? 

The Chairman. Either one. 

(Witness and counsel conferring.) 

Mr. Gray. I am advising him to answer. 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. That is yes, you were in bootlegging business? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Were you associated in that business with Abner 
Zwillman ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
might incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. I ask the Chair again to direct that an answer be 
given. 

The CiiAiRMAisr. Yes, I must direct you to answer that question 
because it relates to matters before 1933. 

(Witness and counsel conferring.) 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember if I was or not, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You know Abner Zwillman ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Halley. In 1932 were you arrested as an idle, disorderly per- 
son and suspicious character, but discharged? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember that. I probably was. I just 
don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. In 1935 were you arrested for conspiracy to maintain 
a lottery ? 

The Chairman. Does the record show where ? 

Mr. Halley. You were arrested in New York and turned over to 
Philadelphia, were you not? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I was. 

Mr. Halley. You were brought back here to Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What disposition was made of that? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not guilty. 

Mr. Halley. That was before Judge Alesandroni ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. In 1936 you were held for inquiry in Media, Pa.? 

Mr. Stromberg, Yes, 

Mr, Halley. And in 1937 were you convicted for being a suspicious 
character in association with criminals and disorderly persons in 
Camden, N.J., in 1937? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. We brought it to the higher court and the 
sentence was reversed, 

Mr. Halley. Were you sentenced to 6 months in prison and a fine 
of $100, is that right?" 

Mr. Stromberg, Yes, and the sentence was reversed, 

Mr, Halley. What is your present occupation? 

Mr. Stromberg, Dress manufacturer, 

Mr. Halley, Where is your business and what is it called? 

Mr. Stromberg. One company is called Jay Lou Dress Co. and the 
other the Lou Jay Dress Co. 

Mr. Halley. Do you own the Dearest Miss Dress Co? 

Mr. Stromberg. I had an interest in it. It is out of business now. 



76 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. How lare:e an interest did you have in the Dearest 
Miss Co.? 

Mr, Stromberg. One-tliird. 

Mr. Halley. Who were your partners ? 

The Chairman. Let me get the name of that company. 

Mr. Stromberg. Dearest Miss, 

Mr. Gray. May I say, Senator, so there will be no confusion — I 
believe that was a partnership. You used the word, as one would 
naturally use it, "company," but I think both that and his present 
business from my own inquiry were partnerships. So you can ad- 
dress your questions accordingly. 

Mr. Halley. Who were your partners in Dearest Miss ? 

Mr, Stromberg. One by the name of John Goldstein and another 
by the name of Myer Goldstein. No relation, 

Mr. Halley, Do you know Ben Levin in New York ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I know him, but I don't know him too welL 

Mr. Halley, You do know him ? 

Mr, Stromberg, Yes ; just hello and good-by, 

Mr. Halley. Where is the Jay Lou Co, located? 

Mr. Stromberg. 640 Caldwell Avenue, Bronx, New York. 

Mr. Halley. Who are your partners in that company? 

Mr, Stromberg. Louis Stromberg, 

Mr. Halley. Is he related to you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, brother. And David Bernoff. 

Mr. Halley. How many employees do you have there? 

Mr. Stromberg. It is in existence now about 9 months. I haven't 
been taking an active part in there. But I would say there is between 
both places about 50 to 60 employees. 

Mr. Halley. You mean Jay Lou and Lou Jay ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. That is in the summertime. How many do you have 
in the business in the busy season ? 

Mr, Stromberg, All the year around. It is a factory and they sew 
dresses on a machine, 

Mr, Halley. Where is the Jay Lou ? 

Mr, Stromberg, Same address, 

Mr. Halley. Who are the partners there ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Same. 

Mr. Halley. Why do you have two different names? 

Mr. Stromberg. We bought one factory, it was two separate fac- 
tories at that time. We only bought one, and then about 3 or 4 
months later we bought the other one. 

Mr. Halley, Do you have any other business ? 

Mr, Stromberg, I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense, 

Mr. Halley, You have already opened the door by telling us about. 
one business and whether you have any others is a fair question, 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

The Chairman. Do you have any other legitimate business? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is different. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any other legitimate business ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any other businesses whatsoever? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 77 

Mr. Stromhekg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
ma}' incriminate me of a Federal ojffense. 

Mr. Halley. What Federal offense do you have in mind? 

Mr. Stromberg. All. 

Mr. Halley. All. You understand that you have no privilege 
against any assertions that might or would tend to incriminate you 
under State laW' ? 

Mr. Gray. Well, now, may I state for the record, and if I interrupt 
improperly you please correct me, of course. Though I have repre- 
sented Senate committees, I have never yet been before them in the 
capacity of representing anyone else. It is my belief that that ques- 
tion is now being argued before Judge Gainey and briefs have been 
furnished to him in connection with the grancl-jury investigation. I 
am entirely familiar, of course, with the Camarata case, which rules 
that where there is a refusal to answer a question that might have 
involved a State offense, there was no protection under the fifth amend- 
ment, but that case is entirely different and distinct in its own posi- 
tion because the case went up to the third circuit on the question alone 
of whether or not he had to answer with respect to that which was 
a State offense. It is my belief and, wrongly or rightly, I have advised 
Mr. Stromberg that he does not have to answer the question, even 
though it miglit involve a State offense, if, in his opinion, it may involve 
also the matter of a Federal offense. 

May I say while I am talking, with respect to the question put by 
counsel with respect to what Federal offeiise, a question of that type 
to be answered destroys the privilege a man may have to refuse to 
answer on the ground that it might incriminate him of a Federal 
offense because, if he names the Federal offense, he is then answering 
your question as to what business he is in that does violate the Federal 
law and the reason for which he claims his privilege. 

Of course, I don't understand that I will be permitted to argue every 
one of these problems as they may arise, but I thought as to this 
particular one 

The Chairman. I am glad to have you make that statement, and I 
think at least on the first proposition you have made, we all understand 
what the state of the law is. 

The question asked Mr. Stromberg was whether he had any other 
businesses ? 

Mr. Halley. That is correct. First, any other legitimate businesses. 
He said, "No." Then I said any other businesses which might iiot be 
legitimate, and he then asserted his privilege. 

I might say there is nothing in the record at all to indicate any Fed- 
eral offense being even nearly approached. Unless there is some indi- 
cation that the questions are approaching any Federal offense, the 
assertion must be regarded to be, on its face, made without foundation. 

Mr. Gray. I am sorry to disagree with you and I will give you an 
illustration that I don't think you could answer. Suppose this gentle- 
man — I am simply giving you a hypothetical case — was in the business 
of counterfeiting. What do you want him to do, make a statement 
that he declines to answer on the ground that it might convict him 
or incriminate him of the offense of counterfeiting ? 

68958— 51— pt. 11 6 



78 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Suppose we narrow our question down. Are you in 
any business which, while not legitimate under the laws of any par- 
ticular State, does not violate any Federal law ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

The Chairman. The Chair directs you to answer. 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. When did you first move to Florida ? 

The Chairman. While we are on the matter of his business, let the 
Chair ask one or two question on businesses. 

Gambling is not a Federal offense. We agree on that, Judge Gray ? 

Mr. Gray. Just an ordinary law, if you please, Senator. We agree 
that gambling in itself is not a Federal offense, but if I may in com- 
pleting my answer to you, say neither gambling, numbers, any other 
kind of gambling, horse racing, anything of the kind, involves the 
question, but it may lead to further questions involving Federal of- 
fenses. While I recognize the fact that there are some cases that 
may differ with me, there are other cases that support me that he 
may take advantage of the right to refuse to answer on the ground 
that it might incriminate him if to answer that question furnishes a 
lead in the matter of a possible charge of commission of a Federal 
offense. 

The Chairman. You don't know what other questions I am going 
to ask or whether I would ask any more. 

Mr. Gray. The first question from our point of view might, if 
answered, furnish a link and on that ground we refuse to answer. 

Mr. Halley. If what counsel has in mind is any kind of income- 
tax problem, the privilege has already been waived by the answers 
with reference to his legitimate businesses. He has opened the door. 

Mr. Gray. Let me say this to you 

The Chairman. We are not going to get anywhere. 

Mr. Gray. May I say one more thing, if I may be permitted, and 
then I am through. You must remember the income tax law, sec- 
tion 145 (b), requires him to set forth his business and he sets forth 
one business, for instance the dress business in this case and doesn't 
set forth his other business, he commits an offense under the Federal 
law. 

The Chairman. Very well. The Chair will ask you whether you 
are in any gambling business. 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

The Chairman. The Chair directs you to answer. 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground 
it may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

The Chairman. The Chair will specifically ask you whether you 
are in any numbers racket. 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

The Chairman. Let the record show that any questions that the 
Chair allows to go to the witness and he refused to answer, he has been 
ordered to answer. Is that satisfactory? 

Mr. Gray. The record should show it by reason of the fact that you 
did so state. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 79 

The Chairman. The Chair will ask you if you have an interest in 
any casinos or crap games at the present time. 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
might incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

The Chairman. Do you have any stocks or bonds in any corpora- 
tion ? 

(Witness and counsel conferring.) 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; I haven't. 

The Chairman. None whatsoever? Do you own any real estate? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. My wife owns a house. I don't own no real 
estate. 

The Chairman. You mean the house in Florida ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

The Chairman. Does she own any other real estate ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not to my knowledge. I don't think so. 

The Chairman. Do you know if she owns any stocks or bonds ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Outside of bonds for the child. 

The Chairman. How many children have you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. One. 

The Chairman. How old ? 

Mr. Stromberg. He will be seven in July, next July. 

The Chairman. Do you have any business in Scranton, Pa., or 
thereabouts ? 

Mr. Stromberg. What kind of business ? 

The Chairman. Any kind of business. 

Mr. Stromberg. No. My brother has that. I don't. 

The Chairman. Your brother. What is your brother's name ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Louis Stromberg. 

The Chairman. What is that business ? 

Mr. Stromberg. A dress factory. They make dresses. 

The Chairman. Is that the same type of general business as the Jay 
Lou and Lou Jay ? 

Mr, Stromberg. Yes. I think it is in Scranton. It may be outside 
of Scranton. I am not sure. 

The Chairman. It is near Scranton ? 

Do you own any interest in that business yourself ? 

Mr. Stormberg. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you have or have you had any business near 
Chester, Pa.? 

Mr. Stromberg. Wilmington. That is the nearest. 

The Chairman. How about Chester, Pa. ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I have no business there, not that I know of. 

The Chairman. What is your business at Wilmington ? 

Mr. Stromberg. We had a credit store, Martin's Clothing Credit Co. 

The Chairman. When did that cease doing business ? 

Mr. Stromberg. About 11 or 12 years ago. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any business in or around the State of 
Maryland? I refer to the Jimmie LaFontaine Maryland Sporting 
Club, was it called, or Maryland Athletic Club. 

Mr. Stomberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
might incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Jimmie LaFontaine ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 



80 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COIVIMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever visit his premises in Maryland, the Mary- 
land Athletic Club ? 

(Witness and counsel conferring.) 

Mr. Stromberg. You don't mind my taking a little time, do you, 
gentlemen ? 

Mr. Gray. If I may be permitted to say what is bothering him, I am 
going to tell him to answer that question. Before the grand jury he 
refused to answer that question. I have since talked to him with 
respect to it and found out what the facts were with respect to it, and 
I told him I was undertaking before that grand jury to have him 
withdraw his refusal and answer the question. Therefore, I think he 
should answer it here to you 

The Chairman. Tell us anything about it. 

Mr. Gray. Even though it may differ from his refusal over there 
because I am in the position that I intend to see that his refusal is 
there withdrawn. 

Mr. Halley. Go ahead, Mr. Stromberg. 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I was there. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Mugsy Taylor? 

Mr. Stromberg. Herman Taylor ; yes, I do. 

Mr. Halley. Was he over there with you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not that I can remember. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in the presence of Taylor and 
LaFontaine, altogether ? 

Mr. Stromberg. 'V^Hiere? 

Mr, Halley. Anywhere. 

Mr. Stromberg. That was at Atlantic City ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Anywhere else ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think at Philadelphia at a fight. Of course I am 
going back quite a few years. I am an old man, you know. 

Mr. Halley. How long ago were you in the presence of Taylor and 
LaFontaine ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I just don't remember. It is quite a few years I 
know. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Meyer Lansky ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

INIr. Halley. Are you related to him by marriage or otherwise ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. He is reputed to be a brother-in-law of yours. 

Mr, Stromberg. I beg your pardon ? 

Mr, Halley. We have been told he is a brother-in-law of yours. Is 
that gossip? 

Mr. Stromberg. No relation whatsoever. 

Mr, Halley. Do you know Jack Lansky? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known the Lansky's ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Twenty-five or thirty years. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business relations with Lansky f 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Fred Keinfield ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I beg your pardon ? 

Mr. Halley. Fred Reinfield. 



ORGAXIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 81 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes; I believe I know him. Is that the Reinfield in 
New Jersey? 

]Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

]Mr. Halley. How long have you known Reinfield? 

Mr. Stromberg. I have known him for about 20 years but I haven't 
seen him for at least 10. Pardon me. I don't think I know Fred. 

Mr. Halley. Which Reinfield do you know ? 

Mr. Stromberg. One of them, I am not sure which. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Louis Greenberg in Chicago? 

Mr. Stromberg. Let's get that other question first. 

]Mr. Halley. All right. 

Mr. Stromberg. You asked me about Fred Reinfield, was it? 

Mr. Halley. The liquor man. 

]\Ir. Stromberg. I don't know if I ever met him or not. Not Fred. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know James Rutkin ? 

^Ir. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr, Halley. How long have you known Rutkin ? 

Mr. Stro:mberg. Twenty years. 

]SIr. Halley. Have you ever had anv business dealings with James 
Rutkin ? 

Mr. Stromberg. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Jake Guzik? 

Mr. Stromberg. Who ? 

Mr. Halley. Jack Guzik. 

Mr. Stromberg. Jack Guzik? 

Mr. Halley. G-u-z-i-k? 

Mr. Stromberg. I want to know if it is the same one I mean, from 
Chicago. 

Mr. Halley. From Chicago. 

Mr. Stromberg. I know him, but not very well. 

INIr. Halley. Do you know Louis Greenberg from Chicago ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't believe I do. 

]Mr. Halley. You never met him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't think so, unless maybe if I would see him I 
■would probably know him. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Bugsy Siegel? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever in business with Bugsy Siegel? •> 

Mr, Stromberg. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Halley. How long did you know Bugsy Siegel ? 

Mr, Stro:mberg. 25 or 30 years, 

Mr. Halley, Did you ever visit Bugsy Siegel, let's say, in 
California? 

Mr. Stromberg. Never. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever visit him in Las Vegas? 

INIr. Stromberg. Never. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in Las Vegas ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

INIr. Halley. When were you last in Las Vegas ? 

Mr. Stromberg. The first and last time I was there was about a 
year ago, probably 10 months ago, probably 14 months ago. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any business there ? 

Mr, Stromberg, None whatsoever. 



82 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 

Mr. Halley. When did you first move to Florida ? 

Mr, Stromberg. You mean the liouse that Ave have now? 

Mr. Halley. When did you buy that house ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I didn't buy the house. 

Mr. Halley. Your wife bought it ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. When did she buy it ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think 3 years ago. 

Mr. Halley. Prior to that did you stay in Florida ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; we stayed in Florida on vacations. 

Mr. Halley. Pretty regularly every winter; isn't that the fact? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, I wouldn't say regularly. 

Mr. Halley. Quite often? 

Mr. Stromberg. Quite often ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you rent houses or did you stay at hotels ? 

Mr. Stromberg. We stayed at hotels. 

Mr. Halley. Would you name the hotels at which you stayed at 
Miami Beach? 

Mr, Stromberg. We stayed at the Atlantis and the Grand Hotel. 
We had an apartment. I don't remember the street. 

Mr. Halley. But no hotels except the Atlantis and the Grand ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't believe that we stopped at any other lioteL 
We might have. I just don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever stay at the Martinique? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr. Halley. Any other? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember that. If you know any and if 
you ask me and if you mention the name, if I stayed there, I will 
tell you. 

Mr. Halley. The Sands Hotel ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, I would stay there for a week when the house 
was closed up, but I was never in the Sands as a residence. 

Mr. Halley. The Wofford Hotel ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think we stayed 1 year during the war when we 
couldn't get any rooms anywhere else. 

Mr. Halley. Abe Allenberg would take you in when you couldn't 
get rooms elsewhere ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I didn't say that. 

Mr. Halley. Isn't that the fact? 

Mr. Stromberg. Are you answering my question or asking me a 
question ? 

Mr. Halley. Was Abe Allenberg the manager at the time ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think he was. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Little Augie Pisano ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes; I do. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know John King? 

Mr. Stromberg. John King ; yes, I do. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known little Augie ? 

Mr. Stromberg. 20 years. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Charles Lucky Luciano ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not very well, but I knew him. 

Mr. Haley. Did you know him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Would I know him if I saw him ? Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 83 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business dealings with him ? 

Mr. Stromberct. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Costello ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I do. 

IMr. Halley. How long have you known him ? 

ISIr. Stromberg. Not too well, I know him, say, 15 years, no business 
together. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Adonis ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I know him. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known him? 

Mr. Stromberg. About 15 or 20 years, the first time I met him. I 
am not very friendly with him. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Erickson ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Maybe 10 or 12 or 15 years. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business with Erickson ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever placed any bet on a horse ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever booked any bets on a horse ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
might incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Mickey Cohen ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I met him once in my life. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you meet him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I met him in New York. I was there introduced 
to him. That is the first and last time I met him, about 6 or 7 years 
ago. 

Mr. Halley. "Who introduced j-ou to Mickey Cohen ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't rememljer. We were in a bar, all drinking. 
I really don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Al Capone ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I heard of him but didn't know him. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Charles Fischetti ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; Charlie Fischetti. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Charlie Fischetti ? . 

Mr. Stromberg. From Florida. 

Mr. Halley. How long? 

Mr. Stromberg. 10 or 12 years. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever go out with him to dinner ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; I don't believe we ever went out to dinner. 

Mr. Halley, Wliere did you see him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. In Florida. 

Mr. Halley. Did Herman Taylor go to Florida, too ? Did you ever 
see him there? 

Mr. Stromberg. Oh, sure. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Harry Russell ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; I know of him but I don't know him ; never 
met him. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Bill Johnston down in Florida, the dog- 
track man ? 



84 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; I don't believe I do. I don't think I know him. 

Mr. Halley. Who is Max Weisberg ? Do you know him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know anybody by the name of Max Weis- 
berg. 

Mr. Halley. Willie Weisberg? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes; I do. 

Mr. Halley. Isn't he sometimes known as Max Weisberg? 

Mr. Stromberg. I know him as Willie. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Willie Weisberg? 

Mr. Stromberg. 20 years. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you first meet him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. In Philadelphia, 18 years or 20 years ago, I am not 
sure. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever in business with Weisberg ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes; I was. 

Mr. Halley. What business ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Martin Clothing Credit Co. 

Mr. Halley. Is that the company in Wilmington ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. When did you enter into that business ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know exactly, maybe about 13 years ago, to 
the best of my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. That would be around 1937 ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Something like that. 

Mr. Halley. When did you say that business discontinued ? 

Mr. Stromberg. About 2 years later. It didn't discontinue. We 
turned it over to the management. 

Mr. Halley. You just gave it up ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. We had the management pay the bills, what- 
ever it was. 

Mr. Halley. Have you been in any other business with Willie 
Weisberg? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answ^er that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any other business dealings with Willie 
Weisberg ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Samuel Hoffman ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. About 18 or 20 years. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you first meet him, here in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in business with Samuel Hoffman ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business dealings with him ? 

Mr. Stoombiirg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. When did you last see Willie Weisberg? 

Mr. Stromberg. 25 minutes ago. 

Mr. Halley. Out in the reception room here ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 85 

Mr. Hallet. When did you last see him before that ? 

Mr. Stromberg. About 7 weeks ago. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you see him? 

Mr. Stromberg. Atlantic City. 

Mr. Halley. AVhere do you stay in Atlantic City ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't stay nowhere. I ride down for the day 
and back. It is only a short drive. 

Mr. Halley. When were you last in Taylor's apartment in Atlantic 
City? 

Mr. Stromberg. Taylor's house ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. A couple of years ago, I think, 2 or 3 years ago. 
I just don't remember. 

]\Ir. Halley. Have you ever seen Charles Fischetti in Taylor's 
house ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Or Rocco Fischetti? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Or Joe Massei ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Massei ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Pardon me. Did you ask me if I saw Joe Massei 
in Herman Taylor's house ? Is that the question ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. I never did. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Joe Massei ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business dealings with Joe 
Massei ? 

Mr. Stromberg. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any business in Florida ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Do I have any business in Florida ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. Are you talking about now ? 

Mr. Halley. Well, I will break my question up. 

Mr. Stromberg. I want to know 

Mr. Halley. The present question is, Do you? 

Mr. Stromberg. Do I have any business now ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Now the next question is: Did you ever have any 
business in Florida ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't you ever have any legitimate business in 
Florida? 

Mr. Stromberg. Any legitimate business ? 

Mr. Halley. In Florida. 
(Witness and counsel conferring.) 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground 
it may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Willie Moretti ? 

The Chairman. Let's get that other question straight. The ques- 
tion was, Did you ever have any legal or legitimate business iq 
Florida? 



86 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question. What was the 
next question ? 

Mr. Hallet. Will the chairman instruct the w^itness to answer the 
last question ? 

The Chairman. The record shows, and you understand the record 
shows, that any of these questions that the chairman lets be put to 
you, you are ordered to answer. 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

The Chairman. That is understood ? 

Mr. Gray. We understand that on the record. 

Mr. Halley. Wlien you first came to Philadelphia what were the 
circumstances ? Did you come here to work, on a visit ? Why did you 
leave New York and come to Philadelphia ? 

Mr, Stromberg. My wife liked Philadelphia. 

Mr. Halley. Is she a native of Philadelphia ? 

Mr. S'TROMBERG. No. She was an entertainer and she worked around 
Philadelphia and she liked it. 

Mr. Halley. When you came here, did you go into any business ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had a legitimate business in Phila- 
delphia ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you live in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Stroisiberg. Oh, I lived in two or three places. One on Forty- 
eighth and Spruce. I lived in the Rittenhouse Plaza. What is that 
hotel on Spruce Street ? 

Mr. Gray. The Drake. 

Mr. Stromberg. The Drake Hotel. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Willie Moretti ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Quite a number of years. I don't remember how 
many, 15 or 16 or 17. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Salvatore Moretti ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Anthony Guarini ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Who? 

Mr. Halley. Anthony G-u-a-r-i-n-i. 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't believe I do. I am not sure. Probably if 
I saw him I probably would know him. But I don't remember the 
name. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever in a restaurant in Lodi, N. J.? 

Mr. SiTJOMBERG. Locii, N. J. No ; I was never there. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever heard of the restaurant in Lodi, N. J., 
run by 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Halley. Guarini? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Halley. You don't remember whether you ever heard of it? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever in Saratoga Springs? 

Mr. Stroimberg. Years back. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 87 

Mr. Halley. What is the last time you were in Saratoga? 

Mr. Stromberg. Ten or eleven years ago, twelve years ago. 

Mr. Halley. Did Hoffman live in the same house you did in Phila- 
delphia? 

Mr. Stromberg. Hoffman? 

Mr. Halley. Yes, Samuel Hoffman. 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. Did Weisberg ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Weisberg; no, sir, I don't think he lived in the same 
house. 

]Mr. Halley. Did Weisberg and Hoffman live in the same apart- 
ment ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That I don't know. ' 

Mr. Halley. You just don't know ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Do you own an automobile ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I do not. 

Mr. Halley. Does your wife ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat kind ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I am just trying to think. I know it is made by 
General Motors. 

Mr. Halley. Chevrolet ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; a bigger car than that. 

Mr. Halley. Buick? 

Mr. Stromberg. Oldsmobile. Oldsmobile. No ; it wasn't an Olds. 

Mr. Halley. Buick ? Pontiac ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think it is an Oldsmobile. I am not sure of that. 

Mr. Halley. How many does she own ? 

Mr. Stromberg. One. It is 4 years old, 3 or 4. 

Mr. Halley. You refuse to say what your present business is ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any information at all regarding the 
numbers racket in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know any members of the Philadelphia police 
force ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Do I ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes ; to talk to them. 

Mr. Stromberg. George Richardson, I know, is one. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Richardson ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Since 1932, 1933, maybe before then. ^ . 

Mr. Halley. Was that about the time you came to Philadephia ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; about that time. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been to his home ? 

Mr. Stromberg. George Richardson's home? No. 

Mr. Halley. Has he ever been to your home ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in a restaurant with George 
Richardson ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Have I been in a restaurant with George Richard- 
son? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 



88 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Stromberg. Pardon me. 

(Witness conferring with counsel.) 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. I was. Pardon me. 

(Witness and counsel conferring.) 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I was in a restaurant with George Richardson 
in New York. 

Mr. Halley. In New York ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat restaurant? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is quite a few years ago. I don't remember, 

Mr. Halley. Were you his host? 

Mr. Stromberg. If you want to call it that. I met him in New York. 

Mr. Halley. You took him out ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. There is nothing to make a big fuss about. I was just 
trying to find out if you entertained him, in other words, on more than 
one occasion. 

Mr. Stromberg. I beg your pardon ? 

Mr. Halley. More than one occasion. 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know. I haven't seen him for the last 
8 years. That is too far back to remember. 

Mr. Halley. Try real hard. 

Mr. Stromberg. Probably on another occasion. 

Mr. Halley. At least twice you would say ? 

Mr. Stromberg. At least twice. 

Mr. Halley. When he comes to New York does he give you a ring ? 

Mr. Gray. Pardon me. You are talking about the present time. 
He says he hadn't seen him for 8 years. 

Mr. Halley. I am entitled to ask the question again. 

Mr. Gray. If you are talking about the present time. So he can 
intelligently answer. 

Mr. Stromberg. I put in there I haven't seen him in the last 8 years. 
So if you are going to ask me if I saw him previously 

Mr. Halley. Up to 8 years ago when he came to New York did you 
see him and entertain him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Just a couple of times. 

Mr. Halley. A couple of times. And you have not seen him in 
8 years? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Either in Philadelphia or New York? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever seen Richardson in Atlantic City? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't believe I did. Maybe years back, but that 
is a long time ago. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know any other members of the Philadelphia 
police force? 

Mr. Stromberg. I have not been here 7 or 8 years. If you mention 
some names. I have been away. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Charles Perkolup ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I know him from years back. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Perkolup ? 

Mr, Stromberg. I know him as an officer. That is about all. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever entertain Perkolup ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, not that I know of. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 89 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Vincent Elwell, Captain Elwell? 

Mr. Stromberg. Is he a detective ? Are you talking about the police 
department now ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. No, outside of hearing his name, outside of knowing 
him by name only. 

Mr. Halley. You never • 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Spoke to him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you Ivuow Luke McBride ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Is that another officer of the law, the police 
department? 

Mr. Halley. Yes ; I am referring to policemen now. 

Mr. Stromberg. Just outside of hearing his name. 

Mr. Halley. You have never spoken to McBride? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't believe I did. I am not sure. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Inspector John Driscoll, or have you 
ever known him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I have known Driscoll ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. How well do you know Driscoll ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not well at all. 

Mr. Halley. Well, enouo;h to talk to him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Have you never talked to Driscoll ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't believe I have ever talked to him ; no. 

Mr. Halley. What do you mean when you say you have known 
Driscoll ? 

Mr. Stromejerg. I have known him around Philadelphia. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever speak to him in all that time? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Inspector Ellis ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Outside of hearing his name, I don't know him 
personally. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Clarence Ferguson ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I know him. 

Mr. Halley. Note that Senator Kefauver has left and that the 
chair has been assumed by Senator O'Conor. I might state that pur- 
suant to a committee resolution duly adopted by this committ.ee a 
subcommittee of one can be authorized and has been authorized by 
the chairman. 

Mr. Gray. As long as you have made that statement, in my opinion 
a quorum is not present in this case unless there are three, and I would 
like the record to note that as long as you have noted the situation. 

Mr. Halley. Your opinion has been noted. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Senator O'Coxor (presiding) . Will you proceed, please, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. How well do you know Ferguson, Clarence Ferguson ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know him well. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know him well enough to talk to him? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know. I wouldn't say that. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever talked to him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Hello or something. Everybody on Broad Street, 
everybody talks. 



90 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley, Have you ever entertained him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Has he ever entertained you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Has he ever sat down at the same table with you for 
hnich or for a drink ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do 5^ou know John De Young? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think I met him once or twice. I am not sure. I 
think I met him. 

Mr. Halley. Wlio introduced you to him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. If I am not mistaken I think it was last year at the 
Yankee Stadium. I am pretty sure of that. 

Mr. Halley. "Wlio was he with ? 

Mr. Stromberg. He was with his wife and another couple and 
another fellow that I know from New York. 

Mr. Halley. Who was the other couple ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. ^Yho were the men in the party ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know outside of this fellow that introduced 
me. 

Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to De Young? 

Mr. Stromberg. A friend of mine by the name of Harry — Harry 
Gold. I am pretty sure that is the first time I met him. 

Mr. Halley. Where does Gold live ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think he lives in New Jersey now. He used to 
live in New York. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know John Hackett ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I know^ John Hackett. 

Mr. Halley. How well do you know John Hackett ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I know him from years back. He is a detective. I 
think he stopped me a few times and questioned me a few times on 
the street. 

Mr. Haxx.ey. Have you ever had any social relationships with 
Hackett? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't believe I did. 

Mr. Haljley. Have you ever had any social relationships with any- 
body except Superintendent Richardson? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, if you mention some names, if I did I will 
tell 5^ou. 

Mr. Halley. I am asking you. 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. You don't remember any others ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. I went away and have been away from here 
8 years now. 

Mr. Halley. And Richardson is the only one you can remember 
having had a social relationship with ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Richardson is one. There is a few of them who 
are not on the police force now. 

Mr. Halley. Whom did you know socially ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I knew a few of them. 

Mr. Halley. Who? 

Mr. Stromberg. I just can't remember names. 

Mr. Gray. He asked you about your knowledge. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 91 

Mr. Stromberg. I can't reineniber, it is too many years ago. 

Mr. Halljey. You did know at least a few ? 

Mr. Stromberg. A few, yes. 

Mr. Haleey. You would entertain them? 

Mr. Stromberg. I wouldn't call it entertaining. If you call tak- 
ing them to dinner entertainment, yes. 

Mr. H ALLEY. How many police officers would you say you have 
entertained? 

Mr. Stromberg. Very few. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever make a political contribution? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember if I did or not. I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. Have you made any in the last 8 years? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Did you make any in Philadelphia? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Did you belong to any political club in Philadelphia? 

Mr. Stromberg. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Marco Reginelli ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any business with him? 

Mr. Stromberg. I never had no business. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Palumbo? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I know him. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any business with him? 

Mr. Stromberg. Outside of getting tickets for fights. Who do you 
mean ? 

Mr. Halley. I said Palumbo. You probably thought I meant 
Palermo. 

Mr. Stromberg. Palumbo. I met him once or twice years ago. 
Never had any business with him. 

Mr. Halley. But you do know Palermo ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

JNIr. Halley. Socially, to go out with him? 

Mr. Stromberg. I wouldn't call it socially. 

Mr. Halley. Did you go out together sometimes? 

Mr. Stromberg. Once in a great while. He comes to New York 
for a fight or something. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Weiner? 

Mr. STROMBER^'r. Frank Weiner? I don't recollect that name, un- 
less I see him I may know him. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Max Tickner? 

Mr. Stromberg. Max Tickner? 

Mr. Halley. Milky Tickner. 

Mr. Stromberg. Milky. I know him, but just "Hello." 

Mr. Halley. Do you know James Singleton ? 

Mr. Stromberg. James Singleton, only what I read in the papers. 

Mr. Halley. What do you know about him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That he is wanted by the Federal grand jury. 

Mr. Halley. You have never seen him in your life ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. If I do, I don't remember, but I don't think 
I ever met him in my life. 

Mr. Halley. When you returned to New York, did you go into any 
business besides the dress business? 



92 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Hallet. Wlien did you go into the Dearest Miss dress business ? 

Mr. Stromberg. About 6 or 7 years ago. I don't know, maybe five. 
I am not sure. 

Mr. Hallet. You were in New York for about 2 or 3 years before 
you went into that business? 

Mr. Stromberg. Probably two. 

Senator O'Conor. Wliat was the extent of your interest ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I beg your pardon? 

Senator O'Conor. Wliat was' the extent of your interest in the 
Dearest Miss ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't understand you. I don't follow you. 

Mr. Gray. It was a partnership. How much of an interest did you 
have in the partnership ? 

Mr. Stromberg. The Senator asked me that question. One-third. I 
didn't understand you. I am sorry. There were three partners. 

M'r. Gray. He wants to know the value. How much investment you 
have. 

Mr. Stromberg. The value of the stock in the business I think was 
$15,000. That is $5,000 my share. 

Senator 0'Conor< Was there any connection between the Dearest 
Miss and the Jay Lou and Lou Jay? 

Mr. Stromberg. None whatsoever. 

Senator O'Conor. One didn't sell out to the other ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Senator O'Conor. What was the extent of your interest in Jay Lou? 

Mr. Stromberg, One-third. 

Senator O'Conor. And would the value of it be about how much? 

Mr. Stromberg. Probably maybe about $20,000. 

Mr. Gray. Is that your interest ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, no. One-third, I am talking about. Whatever 
there is I am talking about the whole. 

Senator O'Conor. The whole would be about $20,000 of which you 
would have one-third ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is correct. 

Senator O'Conor. The same about Lou Jay ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I am talking about the both of them together, about 
$20,000 or $21,000 or $22,000. 

Senator O'Conor. What outlets did they have, if any, and where? 

Mr. Stromberg. They are more of contractors. They contract for 
dresses. 

Senator O'Conor. In what different cities ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Just New York City. 

Senator O'Conor. No branch ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, none whatsoever outside of — pardon me, out- 
side of my brother has one in Pennsylvania which has nothing to do 
with Lou Jay and Jay Lou. 

Senator O'Conor. How about Dearest Miss ? Were there any out- 
lets in that company ? 

Mr. Stromberg. You mean sending dresses out? 

Senator O'Conor. No, by way of affiliated companies? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, just Dearest Miss only. 

Senator O'Conor. No branches? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE^ 93 

Mr. Stromberg. No branches whatsoever. I just didn't understand 
you in the beginning, I am sorry. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you live in New York prior to 1932? 

Mr. Stromberg. In various hotels, but I couldn't remember that. 

Mr. Hallet. In Manhattan or some other borough ? 

Mr. Stromberg. In Manhattan. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you live in New York between the time you 
came to the country and the time 

Mr. Stromberg. What is that question? 

Mr. Halley. As a boy what part of New York did you live in? 

Mr. Stromberg. Lower East Side. 

Mr. Halley. You never lived in any other borough ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, the same borough. I never lived in any other. 

Mr. Halley. Always Manhattan ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Manhattan. 

Mr. Halley. Then in 1932 you came to Philadelphia. 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. I think you said you had no legitimate business in 
Philadelphia, is that right ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have any legitimate business in Philadelphia 
at any time ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me. 

Mr. Halley. I ask the chairman to instruct the witness to answer 
that question. 

Senator O'Conor. The chairman so instructs the witness. 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground 
it may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have any business in Philadelphia that did 
not involve a violation of any law, State or Federal ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Senator O'Conor. The chairman instructs the witness to answer. 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground 
it may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

M)\ Halley. We are getting some information. Do you have that, 
Mr. Klein? 

Are you in frequent communication with Willie Weisberg? 

Mr. Stromberg. What do you mean by frequent ? 

Mr. Halley. Do you see him often ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. When did you — — 

Mr. Stromberg. Quite often. 

Mr. Halley. Wlien did you see Weisberg last before coming here 
to attend this meeting? 

Mr. Stromberg. Atlantic City was the last time I saw him. 

Mr. Halley. Wlien was that? 

Mr. Stromberg. Approximately 2 months ago, maybe 7 weeks ago, 6 
weeks ago. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. In Atlantic City. When did you see him prior to 
that? 

68958— 51— pt. 11 7 



94 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Stromberg. Oh, I don't remember. I probably saw him once 
before that, before Florida. I am not sure. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Do you speak to him often on the telephone ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Quite often, not too often. 

Mr. Halley. Long distance ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I speak to him once in a while. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have business with him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Were you in Hot Springs, Ark., this year? 

Mr. Stromberg. This year ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't believe I was there this year. 

Mr. Halley. At the Arlington Hotel ? 

Mr. Stromberg. This year? 

Mr. Halley. In 1950. 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember. Was it 1949 instead of 1950? 
I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Were you there in 1949 or 1950 ? 

Mr, Stromberg. 1949. I might have been there in 1950, too. I just 
don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any business in Hot Springs? 

Mr. Stromberg. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Halley. What do you go there for ? 

Mr, Stromberg. To take the baths. 

]Mr. Halley. AVho did you see when you were in Hot Springs ? 

Mr, Stromberg. I will tell you, you see so many people that you 
don't really remember them because people come from all over the 
country, from Europe they come there to take the baths. 

]\Ir. Halley. Did you see anybody from Chicago there ? Were you 
witli anybody when you went there ? Did you go alone or with some- 
body? 

]\Ir. Stromberg. Willie Weisberg. 

Mr. Halley. You went with Weisberg ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr, Halley. Was Taylor there? 

Mv. Stromberg. No, sir.- 

Mr. Halley. Did you have any meetings with anybody there? 

Mr. Stromberg. Meetings? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you see Owney Madden there ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. He lives there. 

Mr. Halley. Did you talk to him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Oh, sure. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have dinner 

Mr. Stromberg. Pardon me for interrupting. When you asked me 
about a meeting, an arranged meeting to meet in Hot Springs? Is 
that what you mean ? 

Mr. Halley. No, no. Sit and talk with people there. 

Mr. Stromberg, You see everybody on the street, the whole town 
is four blocks square. 

Mr. Halley. Who did you see? Could you tell us some of your 
friends you meet there ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 95 

JSIr. Stromberg. I don't remember. You see so many people you 
just go about your business. 

Mr. Halle Y. Do you know Abe Glassman? 

Mr. Stromberg. Abe Glassnuuu yes, I know liim. 

JNlr. Halley. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I have known him for years. He used to give us all 
the tickets for fights. 

Mr. Halley'. Do you know Beeny Kay ? 

Mr. SiROMBERG. Yes, I know him. 

]\Ir. Halley'. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. For about 10 years. 9 years. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Samuel Lit ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I know him. 

Mr, Halley'. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not well. I would say maybe 15 years. 

ISIr. Halley. Have you ever had any business with Samuel Lit? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. HALLEY^ Have you ever had any telephone calls to Samuel Lit? 
Do you have occasion to telephone him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any legitimate business with Samuel Lit? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse tc answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. May I ask the chairman if he will direct the witness 
to answer those questions ? 

Senator O'Conor. Yes; I direct the witness to answer the questions 
as propounded. 

Mr. Stromberg. May I ask Mr. Gray something first ? 

(Witness and counsel conferring.) 

Mr. Stromberg. I will answer that question, that I had no legitimate 
business with Mr. Lit. 

Mr. Halley. Have you any legitimate business witli Frank 
Palermo ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley\ And will the chairman direct an answer? 

Senator O'Conor. I direct you to answer. 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley'. I am asking if you had any legitimate business with 
Frank Palermo. 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Why does a question about Palermo trouble you more* 
than the question previously propounded which you answered after 
a conference with 3'our lawyer? 

Mr. Stromberg. I beg j^our pardon. 

Mr. Gray^ I raise the question, Senator, if you please, that that is 
not a proper question in this investigation. Of course, I am not before 
a court, I am not going to make some technical objection with respect 
to it, but the witness' reason for refusing to answer one question and 



96 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

for answering another one, and saying he wouldn't answer this one 
because it would incriminate him, his reason is not a matter for in- 
vestigation by this committee. If I am wrong I will be glad to be 
shown that I am wrong. 

Senator O'Conor. I think if the witness elects to stand upon his 
constitutional rights, whether that point is well taken or not is one 
question, but if he does answer, of course, the answer speaks for itself. 
I don't think he need to explain any reason why he refuses to answer 
if he does so refuse. 

Mr. Stromberg. Thank you. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know anybody at the Sun Hotel in Chester, 
Pa.? 

Mr. Gray. Sun Hotel? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Who do you know ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Samuel Green. 

Mr. Halley. Wlio else do you know at the Sun Hotel ? 

Mr. Stromberg. The woman who runs the hotel, as Mrs. Klein. I 
think that is her name. I am not sure. 

Mr. Halley. In what business is Samuel Green ? 

Mr. Stromberg. The only business I know, he owns the hotel. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether there is gambling establishment 
at the Sun Hotel in Chester, Pa. ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in the Sun Hotel in Chester, Pa. ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I have. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever seen gambling in the Sun Hotel in 
Chester, Pa.? 

Mr. Stromberg. I never saw gambling in the Sun Hotel. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any business with Little Augie Carf ano ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Did I have any business with Augie Carf ano ? No ; 
I had no business with him. 

Mr. Halley. I note here 

Mr. Strojiberg. Pardon me for interrupting. I am sorry. I might 
have had some business, maybe 15 or 16 years ago, but I really don't 
remember. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Lillian Carf ano, his wife? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any business with her in the last 15 or 
16 years? 

Mr, Stromberg. Mrs. Carf ano? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Can you account for a telephone call from your home 
to the home of Lillian Carfano at Long Beach in the year 1948? 

Mr. Stromberg. Personally, myself; no. 

Mr. Halley. You M'ould not have made it? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Is it possible that your wife might have ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Possibly. I might have made it. I am not sure. 
I am more sure that my wife and Mi's. Carfano were pretty good 
friends. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know anybody by the name of Rose who pur- 
chased or lived in the Carfano house in Long Beach, N. Y. ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 97 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't reniomber the name. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Lavorsi ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know. I don't know. If I see him I prob- 
ably would know him. Offhand I couldn't say that I do. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know a man named "William Giglio, Bill 
Giglio? 

Mr. Stromberg. If he had a nickname maybe I would know him. I 
reall}" don't. I am not sure. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever in the sugar business ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Sugar business? Never in my life. 

Mr. Halley. What business were you in between 1942 and 1945? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think it was the dress business. 

Mr. Halley. What business were you in before you went into the 
dress business? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Were you in any legitimate business before you went 
into the dress business ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Any what ? 

Mr. Halley. Any legitimate business before you went into the 
dress business. 

Mr. Gray. The only thing I want to do is to call the Senator's at- 
tention to the fact that that has been asked and answered. 

Mr. Halley. I believe it probably has, but I would like to have the 
answer again just to make sure it is on the record. 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. No further questions. Do you know Frank Sinatra? 

Mr. Stromberg. Outside of seeing him in a cafe in New York ; no, 
I don't. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever sat at a table with him in a cafe ? 

Mr. Stromberg. With him ? No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You have never spoken to him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I have had no occasion to talk to him. 

Mr. Halley. Did you talk to him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I am sorry ; no. 

Senator O'Conor. I want to ask you one or two questions. Your 
name, of course, is given as Harry Stromberg. 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. You also go under the name of Eosen? 

Mr. Stromberg. Pardon me. I don't use the name of Kosen. I use 
the name of Harry Stromberg. 

Senator O'Conor. I didn't w^ant to imply by that anything of the 
kind. I just wanted to know if you were known by that name. 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Senator O'Conor. I want to know whether or not you can give an 
explanation of why you are known by that name. Is there any family 
name ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; none whatsoever. Just years back we kids got 
into some trouble, and I happened to pick that name out. 

Senator O'Conor. I am not intei-ested in that. 

Mr. Gray. We have no objection to it. 

Senator O'Conor. I wanted to get it for purposes of identification. 

Mr. Stromberg. No objection whatsoever. 



98 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator O'Conor. It is a nickname ? 

Mr. Stromberg. They called me that. In the last 10 years the only 
ones I hear call me that name is the newspapers. 

Senator O'Conor. It doesn't reflect any discredit at all. I am ask- 
ing for the fact as to what nickname. 

Mr. Stromberg. They just gave me that name when I was a young 
boy. I was dark and they called me "Nig." That is perfectly all 
right. 

Senator O'Conor. It doesn't imply anything one way or the other. 
I just wanted it for the purpose of identification. That concludes the 
questioning. 

Mr. Hallet. I have one more question. Do you know William 
Gersh? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't believe I do. 

]Mr, Hatxey. Do you know Lou Wolcher? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, I don't think so. I don't remember the name 
at all. but if I see him I probably would. 

Mr. Halley. Gersh edits the Cash Box magazine. 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir; I don't think I know^ him. 

Mr. Halley. The magazine of the slot-machine industry. 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know him. I don't know him 

Mr. Halley. You don't? 

Mr. Stromberg. Positive. 

Senator O'Conor. That concludes the questioning. 

Mr. Gray. May he be released from his subpena? That is per- 
fectly all right because I was going to add, you don't want him of 
course in the immediate future. Any time that I am advised I will 
get in touch with him and have him here for you. 

Senator O'Conor. Very good. We will extend you the courtesy 
if there is anything you desire to say in addition. 

Mr. Gray. I will say a word off the record after he withdraws, if 
3'ou will allow me to do it. It wouldn't be proper in the way of any 
bit of testimony. 

Senator O'Conor. I didn't want you to understand you were being 
called upon to make any explanation, but I wanted to accord you 
the privilege if you want it. 

Before you withdraw, I want to accord another opportunity to have 
3^ou answer any or all of the questions that were asked of you before 
and which you declined to answer, and just to ask whether you still 
stand upon the right of your refusal to answer any and all of those 
questions. 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes; I stand on my right. 

Mr. Gray. Permit me to ask a question on the record. If I may be 
fui'nished, not for any publicity because I never talk to the news- 
paper fellows or to anybody else as far as that is concerned about any 
matter that I am interested in as a lawyer, but if I could be furnished 
with a copy of this, I will, of course, sit down with him and go over 
it with him and see whether or not I can advise him after I talk to 
him about it, because there are a lot of these questions I didn't know 
anything about, and if I think it proper to do so to protect his 
interests, I will advise him to come in and answer them. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Gray, the committee has a general rule of per- 
mitting witnesses to obtain a copy of the closed testimony. It so 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 99 

happens, however, that the testimony is rather expensive, and while 
we would be willing to lend yon a copy to peruse, if you want to buy 
a copy 

Mr. Gray. Lend me one, or 1 will buy a copy and then I will have 
my own. 

Mr. Halley. If you want your own you will liave to buy one. 

Senator O'Conor. In the event that is not convenient ancl you want 
the committee to lend you one, you are welcome to that. 

Mr. Gray. If it is only a matter of paying the expense, that is all 
right. 

Mr. Halley. That is on a confidential basis, of course. 

Mr. Gray. Of course. I give the committee my assurance of that. 

I understood Senator Kefauver is going away. When do we meet 
again ? 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Rosen is not required to remain here in Phila- 
delphia for the committee, and probably will not be called. He is, 
however, still under subpena. 

Mr. Gray. We recognize that. He wants to know whether he can 
go away for a couple of weeks as far as this committee is concerned. 

Mr. Halley. So long as we are able to call him back. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

(Whereupon, at 5 p. m. the committee recessed until 9 : 30 a. m. the 
following day.) 



INYESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CKIME IN INTEESTATE 

COMMERCE 



SATURDAY, OCTOBER 14, 1950 

United States Senate, 
Special Commitee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Philadelphia^ Pa. 

EXECUTIVE SESSION 

The committee met, pursuant to recess, at 9 : 40 a. m., in courtroom 
No. 1, United States Courthouse, Ninth and Market Streets, Phila- 
delphia, Pa., Senator Estes Kefauver, chairman of the committee, 
and Senator Herbert R. O'Conor, presiding. 

Present : Senators Kefauver and O'Conor. 

Also present : Rudolph Halley, chief counsel ; Alfred M. Klein and 
Downey Rice, assistant counsel; John N. McCormick, George H. 
Martin, and Martin F. Fay, investigators. 

Joseph M. Bransky, district supervisor, Bureau of Narcotics, Treas- 
ury Department, Philadelphia, Pa. 

Senator O'Conor. The committee will be in order. 

It is customary here, Mr. Wiener, to swear all witnesses. 

In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear that the evidence 
you will give in this matter shall be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Wiener. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF FRANK WIENER, PHILADELPHIA, PA., FORMER 
CHAIRMAN OF STATE ATHLETIC COMMISSION 

Mr. Wiener. My name is Frank Wiener, 1530 Locust Street, Phil- 
adelphia. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Wiener, you were a member of the State Athletic 
Commission of Pennsylvania ? 

Mr. Wiener. Yes ; I was its chairman from 1926 to 1932. That is 
some time ago. 

Mr. Klein. As such commissioner, you had charge of boxing activi- 
ties in Pennsylvania? 

Mr. Wiener. That is true. 

Mr. Klein. The licensing of boxers and managers ? 

Mr. Wiener. That is true. 

Mr. Klein. Do you know Herman Taylor? 

Mr. Wiener. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. What was his business during the time that you were 
chairman of the commission ? 

101 



102 ORGAJSnZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Wiener. He was promoter of boxing at the arena and in sev- 
eral of the ball parks during the summer. 

Mr. Klein. Did he have any other business ? 

Mr. Wiener. Not that I know of. 

Mr. I^EiN. Do you know Frank Palermo ? 

Mr. Wiener. I know who he is. I wouldn't know him if he walked 
in here. 

Mr. Klein. Do you know his general reputation ? 

Mr. Wiener. Only what I have read. 

Mr. Klein. Do you know Frank Palumbo ? 

Mr. Wiener. Yes; I do. 

Mr. IvLEiN. Do you know what his business is ? 

Mr. Wiener. He is in the restaurant business, the automobile busi- 
ness. He has taken out a license. I read, for promoting boxing, but 
from what I understood, he was more or less doing it for charity, he 
wasn't doing it as a living. 

Mr. Klein. Can you tell the committee whether prize fights were 
honestly conducted in Philadelphia? 

Mr. Wiener. During my time ? 

Mr. Klein. During your time. 

]\Ir. Wiener. I hope they were. I did my best. Of course, I sup- 
pose that there were some fights put over on me that were not honest. 

Mr. Klein. Can you tell us whether Herman Taylor had any con- 
nection with those fights? 

Mr. Wiener. He was the promoter. I don't know that he was the 
fixer, but he was the promoter of several fights I have in mind. 

Mr. Klein. Could a prize fight be fixed without the promoter having 
some knowledge of it? 

Mr. Wiener. Oh, sure. 

Mr. Klein. You told us in discussion that you knew of several 
fights that were definitely fixed. Can you tell the committee what 
they were ? 

Mr. Wiener. Well, I know one fight that was here that I got wind 
of. Ace Clark fought Camera. I got wind that Ace Clark was to 
take a dive, as they call it, in the third round. I sent for Ace Clark 
that day before the fight, and I said, "Listen here, Ace, I understand 
that you are supposed to take a dive in this fight. If you do, you 
are never going to fight here again ; and if you put up a good fight, 
1 am going to give you $100 out of my own pocket, in addition to your 
purse. I want this fight to go, and I want it to be a good fight." 

So the night of the fight, I was at the ringside, and it was a good 
fight. In the third round he didn't go down, and he put up a great fight. 
In the sixth round he put an eye on Camera the likes of which I have 
never seen before. I called the doctor over, and I said, "You get into 
this ring and look at that eye and see if the fight should continue." He 
got in the ring, and went over and looked at Camera's eye, and he 
walked back to me and said, "It is O. K." 

In the next round, before it was 30 seconds old, Ace Clark went 
down, and they counted him out. 

From what I found out sometime later, there was a character around 
here by the name of Sartos Freedman, who walked over into Ace's cor- 
ner and threatened him with a gun if he didn't go down in that round, 
and he went down. He put up a great fight. He tried — if there is such 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 103 

a tiling as a doublecross — to doublecross them, because I understood 
lie was to go down in the third round. 

Mr. Halley, Did you ever find out who put Freedman up to threat- 
ening Clark? 

Mr. Wiener. No ; I never found out definitely, but I have an idea 
who it was. 

]\Ir. KuEiN. Who do you suppose it was ? 

Mr. Wiener. I think it was Boo Boo Hoff. 

Mr. Klein. Wlio was he? 

Mr. Wiener. He was the manager of Ace Clark, and a character. 

Mv. Klein. Wlien you say "character," you mean a police character ? 

JSIr. Wiener. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Do you know whether Boo Boo Hoff was associated with 
Herman Taylor? 

Mr. Wiener. No. They were bitter enemies. 

Mr. Klein. You said you knew Frank Palermo by reputation ? 

Mr. Wiener. Palermo? 

Mr. Klein. Yes. 

Mr. Wiener. Just recently. Palermo, in my time, wasn't in the 
boxing game. It has been onl^^ recently that I even heard of him. I 
would say a j^ear or two. 

Mr. Klein. Do you know that Palermo holds a manager's licensed 

Mr. Weiner. He holds a manager's license ; yes. 

Mr. Klein. Did you have occasion to talk to Governor Duff of 
Pennsylvania about Palermo ? 

Mr. Wiener. No; I didn't talk to him. I just met him. He asked 
me what I thought of the coming election. I happened to be reading 
the Enquirer down at Atlantic City at this time that Palermo was 
arrested. I said to him, "You didn't help it any with this pardoning 
Palermo." I said, "Look at this. This is going to stir something up." 
He said, "I didn't pardon him. The pardon board did." That was 
more or less said facetiously. I wasn't serious with Duff. He asked 
me what I thought of the coming election, and I told him. 

Senator O'Conor. When was this ? 

Mr. Wiener. That was the night this thing happened. It was late 
Sunday night at Atlantic City. I met him on the boardwalk. 

Mr. Klein. Would you say it was about August 12 or 13, 1950 ? 

Mr. Wiener. Somewhere around there, during the summer. 

Mr. Klein. Did you ever have occasion to call Governor Duff in 
Harrisburg ? 

Mr. Wiener. No ; I didn't. 

Mr. Klein. About Palermo? 

Mr. Wiener. No, I didn't call Duff' ; no. 

Mr. Klein. Who did you call in Harrisburg? 

Mr. Wiener. You know, I am a Republican. I thought it would be 
a good idea and it would help Governor Duff's campaign if he would 
call up the boxing commission. I know if I had been boxing commis- 
sioner at the time and I wanted to help the Governor, I would have 
said, "Here, you give some orders to 'me to throw these racketeers out 
of the boxing game before somebody says that you are back of them.'^ 
Do you understand what I mean ? 

Mr. Klein. I understand. 

Mr. AViener. I think it would have been good policy for him to call 
up the boxing commission and say, "Here, I don't want Palermo and 



104 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

that type of fellow having licenses in Pennsylvania, and I want you 
to get rid of them." 

Mr. Klein. That was after Palermo was involved in a shooting 
scrape? 

Mr. Wiener. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. What did you do ? 

Mr. Wiener. I talk too much. Maybe that is the reason I did. 

Mr. Klein. What did yon do ? 

Mr. Wiener. I called his secretary and I said, "If 1 was boxing 
commissioner today, that is what I would advise the Oovernor to do." 

Mr. Klein. You called up the Governor's secretary ? 

Mr. Wiener. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Weimar ? 

Mr. Wiener. Yes. I don't think I got Weimar. W^hat is his other 
secretary's name? 

Mr. Klein. I don't know. 

Mr. Wiener. He has another secretary. 

Mr. Klein. But you did call the Governor's office? 

Mr. Wiener. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. You called, of course, as a citizen 

Mr. Wiener. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. Who is interested in the boxing business ? 

Mr. Wiener. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. It is your feeling that there are racketeers in the boxing 
business ? 

Mr. Wiener. Oh, there is no doubt about it. 

Senator O'Conor. Just what information do you have on that, in 
addition to what you have already given ? 

Mr. Wiener. What information on which ? 

Senator O'Conor. As to the fact that there are racketeers in the 
boxing game. 

Mr. Wiener. I know a lot of men who are in the boxing game that 
are reputed to be racketeers. I have never seen them do what they 
claim to do. I have never seen what they do. But I know, for instance, 
Joe Louis' managers, Roxboro and Brown, were reputed to be the big 
numbers writers in Detroit. Now his trainer, who is now dead, was a 
man named Jack Blackburn, who served 20 years in Philadelphia 
Penitentiary or Eastern Penitentiary for murder. 

You take other fighters have managers — would you like me to tell 
you why these fellows are managers of fighters ? It is an interesting 
thing. I told it to Mr. Klein. 

Senator O'Conor. I don't know that it is pertinent to go into the past 
history of it. I would rather, if you could, that you confine yourself 
to your knowledge of the existing of the racketeering element in the 
boxing game here, if you know of any specific information. 

Mr. Wiener. At the present time, I don't know, but during the 
prohib'tion days 

Sen:' tor O'Conor. That is going back pretty far. 

Mr. Wiener. That is what started them in there. There never were 
racketeers in the boxing game until then. 

Senator O'Conor. Have they had any hold on the game or any 
influence in it recently? 

Mr. Wiener. I believe it is for the same reason, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Recently? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 105 

Mr. Wiener. I believe it covers up a lot of their illegal racketeering. 
The boxing game is a cover for a lot of that stuif, in this way 

Senator O'Conor. Before you go into detail, what information do 
you have? Who do you think is involved, or in the recent past has 
been involved, here in Philadelphia in the boxing game, of that 
racketeering element? 

Mr. Wiener. You see, I have been out of it so long, and I have 
followed it only through the papers. In fact, I haven't even gone 
to a boxing match for so long, because I am disgusted with the manner 
in which it is conducted. 

Senator O'Conor. You have been out of it 18 years ? 

Mr. Wiener. 1932 was when I was out, but I have followed it and 
watched it. I know" just what is the matter with it, and I know how/ 
the Federal Government could help it, if they wanted to. 

Senator O'Conor. When was the Ace Clark-Carnera fight? 

Mr. Wiener. That was about 1928 or 1929, somewhere around there. 
They had another fight, the same fellows, Camera and George God- 
frey, here in Philadelphia. 

Senator O'Conor. When was that? 

Mr. Wiener. That was in 1929 or 1930. 

Senator O'Conor. You haven't any information more recently? 

Mr. Wiener. I know the racketeers were back there, because they 
threatened me because I suspended Camera and said he would never 
fight in Philadelphia again. Fellows like Duffey and Owney Madden, 
and those fellows from New York who were managers of Camera, 
did everything they could to me to try to make me reinstate him,, 
and I told them he would never be reinstated as long as I was on the 
commission; and he never was. 

Senator O'Conor. You cannot give the committee any more recent 
information than 18 years ago ? 

Mr. Wiener. I have been out of it that long, and all I know is what 
I have followed, but the Federal Government could help themselves 
if they wanted to, to stop this. 

For instance, I will show you — all right, if you don't want to 
know it. 

Senator O'Conor. We want to know anything you have of recent 
past, but I am questioning whether we want to go back 20 years. 

Mr. Wiener. This is a present thing. This happened only 2 weeks 
ago. 

Senator O'Conor. Tell us what happened 2 weeks ago. 

Mr. Wiener. It happens all the time. Where a champion is going 
to fight 

Senator O'Conor. What happened 2 weeks ago ? 

Mr. Wiener. Maybe 2 or 3 weeks ago, Ezzard Charles and Joe 
Louis. Take that fight. 

Senator O'Conor. What do you know about that? What do you 
know, now? 

Mr! Wiener. I am telling you what I know, Avhat I read in the 
papers, that if Louis had won that fight he couldn't fight anybody else 
but Ezzard Charles within 60 days of the date. He had to fight him 
within 60 days of that date. Those contracts are made at the insist- 
ence of these managers. Do you think that is right? Doesn't it 
give the fighters and the managers an opportunity to perpetrate fraud 



106 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

on the public when a man knows if he loses he will get another chance 
to win ? 

Senator O'Conor. You know nothing as to the conduct of the fight 
itself? 

Mr. Wiener. No; but I laiow in a lot of cases where a champion 
has lost his first bout he has come back on account of that contract 
and may win it back again. 

Senator O'Conor. You are criticizing the contractual set-up ? 

Mr. Wiener. No ; it is not the contractual set-up. It is the author- 
ities, the boxing commissions, allowing men to perpetrate fraud on 
the public or giving them an opportunity to do that. 

Senator O'Conor. Through the requirement 

Mr. Wiener. I think there should be a law — and it would be a 
very popular law if the Federal oGvernment would make a law — that 
no contract like that could be made. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Halley. As counsel for the committee, it seems to me that 
the matter you are telling us about now is appropriate for a memo- 
randum, but should not be made a part of our record here in Phil- 
adelphia. This is strictly a legal view on what is appropriate to 
get into our record. You have an opinion on that, and we would 
like to have your written letter or statement so that the committee 
can consider it ; but under oath, for sworn testimony, we need factual 
data rather than opinion. I would suggest to the committee that the 
witness be excused and asked to give the committee the benefit of 
his observations in a memorandum. 

Senator O'Conor. I think Mr. Halley's suggestion is an excellent 
one. 

Mr. Klein. I will communicate with you. 

Senator O'Conor, From the abundance of his background the 
information might be very valuable in our study. 

Mr. Wiener. I will write to you how you can overcome a lot of 
this racketeering in Philadelphia. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you very much, Mr, Wiener. 

Senator O'Conor. We are very much obliged to you. 

Mr. Wiener. I am sorry I coiddn't help you any more. 

Senator O'Conor. You have been very willing. Thank you ever 
so much. 

Mr. Weisberg, it is customary for all witnesses to be sworn. Will 
you raise your right hand ? 

In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear the evidence you 
will give in this matter pending before the committee will be the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Gray. I desire, in the first place, if the committee pleases, to 
place upon the record an objection by reason of the fact that there 
IS not a quorum of the committee. 

I desire, in the second place, if the committee pleases, to claim such 
immunity as this witness may be entitled to under the laws of the 
United States. 

Senator O'Conor. Mr. Gray, your statements are noted and will 
be, of course, incorporated in the record. 



ORGANIZED' CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 107 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM N. WEISBERG, PHILADELPHIA, PA., 
ACCOMPANIED BY WILLIAM A. GRAY, ATTORNEY, PHILADEL- 
PHIA, PA. 

Senator O'Conor. Will you state your full name, please? 

Mr. Weishekg. ^Villiam N. Weisberg. 

Senator O'Coxor. Your address? 

Mr. Weishkro. Wyngate Hall. 

Senator O'Conor. Mr. Gray, so we may have, as a matter of record, 
the representation, and, of course, your pi-esence. 

Mr. Gray. You have my name and address, and I represent Mr. 
Weisberg. 

Senator O'Conor. Thank you, indeed. 

Counsel, will you proceed? 

Mr. Halley, May I state for tlie record that this subcommittee is 
duly authorized by virtue of a proper resolution of this committee, 
and is a duly constituted subcommittee, and that a quorimi does exist 
pursuant to such resolution. 

Mr. Gray. Of course, yonr record, Mr. Halley, will show who is 
here from the committee, will it not ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes ; of course. 

Mr. Weisberg, what is your address ? 

Mr. Welsberg. AVyngate Hail. Fiftieth and Spruce Street. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any business ^ 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. When did j'ou last have a business? 

Mr. Weisberg. About 7 or 8 years ago. 

Mr. Halley. What business was that ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Credit clothing. 

Mr. Halley. Was that in Wilmington, Del.? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How long were you in the credit clothing business? 

IMr. Weisberg. About 4 or 5 years. 

Mr. Halley. You sold that business? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. It was a little failure, and we gave it over 
to the manager. 

Mr. Halley. Who were your partners in that business? 

Mr. Weisberg. Harry Stromberg. 

Mr. Hally. Anyone else ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. The manager had a small part of it. ' 

Mr. Halley. Since then you have done nothing to earn a living 
at all ? 

]\Ir. Weisberg. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds it 
may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Where were you born? 

Mr. Weisberg. Russia. 

Mr. Halley. When ? 

Mr. Weisberg. 1898. 

Mr. Halley. And when did you come to this country? 

Mr. Weisberg. When I was 6 months old. 

Mr. Halley. You were brought by 5^our parents ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. To what city in the United States were you brought? 

Mr. Weisberg. Philadelphia, to the best of my knowledge. 



108 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halmiy. You have grown up and lived here ever since ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ELvLLEY. Have you ever lived in any other city as a resident i 

Mr. Weisberg. No ; no resident. For a month or two. 

Mr. Halley. But your residence has remained in Philadelphia 
throughout that period ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yas, sir. 

Mr. Halley. In what other cities have you lived even briefly 1 

Mr. Weisberg. For a short time? For a month or 2 months? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. Miami, Fla. 

Mr. Halley. Any place else ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

You don't mind my moving around ; I am a little nervous. 

Mr. Halley. Are you a citizen ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. When did you become a citizen ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I believe my father became a citizen in 1914. 
Through him, I became a citizen. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been convicted of a crime ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I will put it this way : In 1932, I was arrested. I 
was not sent to prison. I don't know whether it is a conviction or not. 

Mr. Halley. That was for violation of the Firearms Act in a 
hold-up? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir ; no hold-up. 

Mr. Halley. The record shows a hold-up. 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Is that wrong? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is wrong. I was riding in an automobile with 
some people. It was a borrowed automobile. They picked me up, 
and as I got near a hotel the police stopped us. They dug out from 
some place, with nails and a hammer, a pistol. 

Mr. Halley. You pleaded nolo contendere, didn't you ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. 

Mr, Halley. You were duly adjudged guilty and put on proba- 
tion for 3 years by Judge McDevitt ; is that right ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I think that is right. 

Mr. Halley. Were 3'ou ever convicted on any other occasion? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been arrested on any other occasion? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You were first arrested in 1917 for larceny of an auto- 
mobile ; is that right ? 

Mr, Weisberg. I think that is right, sir. 

That was in 1913, 1 believe. 

Mr. Halley. 1913? 

Mr. Weisberg. 1912 or 1913. I was a juvenile, I believe. 

Mr. Halley, Were you arrested on any occasion in 1917? 

Mr. Weisberg. 1917? I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Did you serve in the First World War ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. In 1934 you were arrested for being a suspicious char- 
acter ;; is that correct ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSITATE COMMERCE 109 

Mr. Weisberg, I ^ucss that is right if they have it there. I was 
arrested here 30 or 40 times for nothing. 

Mr. H ALLEY. Were you ever arrested for setting up and maintain- 
ing an illegal lottery ? 

Mr. Weisbeug. No, sir ; not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. And found not guilty and discharged by the same 
Judge McDevitt again in 1935 ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir ; not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley, The record shows that you were arrested in 1935 for 
setting up and maintaining an illegal lottery and conspiracy and 
that in 1936 on that charge you were found not guilty and discharged 
by Judge McDevitt. Do you recall that ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir ; I do not. 

Mr. Halley. In 1936 you were picked up as a suspicious character? 

Mr. Weisberg. It could be. 

Mr. Halley. You say you were picked up on suspicion a great many 
times ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes; any number of times, and many times not 
slated. 

Mr. Halley. You were investigated for violation of the Selective 
Service Act in 1946 ; is that right ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is not true. 

Mr. Halley. That is not true ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is not true. I can explain that. 

Mr. Hali.ey. Would you? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. I will explain it this way : In one of these 
arrests they took me before a judge in the morning, and there was 
no charge against me. The magistrate left me out. One of the police 
officials sent for a Government man, an agent, and he questioned me 
on the outside for about 10 minutes. Of course, he asked me for my 
card and let me go. 

Mr. Halley. On this last occasion were you with Magistrate 
O'Malley? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. The occasion I am speaking of, if my 
memory serves me right, it was JMagistrate Biefeld. 

Mr. Gray. I will give you the spelling. It is Biefeld, B-i-e-f-e-1-d. 

Mr. Halley. What are the circumstances that you can tell the com- 
mittee that led to your being picked up so often by the Philadelphia 
police ? 

Mr. Weisberg. The only way I can explain it, gentlemen, is strictly 
personal hate. That is the best of my ability. 

Mr. Halley. Are they trying to make you uncomfortable; is that 
the point ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Not trying. They have made me uncomfortable for 
10 years. 

Mr. Halley. But you haven't felt a desire to leave Philadelpliia, 
despite that ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I was born and raised here, and through the 
efforts^ 

Mr. Gray. You were born in Russia. 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes ; I was born in Russia. 

Through the efforts of my attorney, Mr. Gray, he kept me in the 
city of Philadelphia. Every other week 

68958— 51— pt. 11— — 8 



110 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Gray. You have a right to expLain it to the committee, if you 
Avant to, in more detaiL 

Mr. Halley. Go right ahead. 

Mr. Weisberg. I couldn't walk into a restaurant in the city of Phila- 
delphia in the last 10 years unless there was some police officer there 
to call city hall either to chase me out or to harass me, to insult my Mrs. 
They sent my Mrs. to the hospital on several occasions on account of 
her nervousness. 

They wouldn't take me in. On several occasions they hit me, and of 
course, would never arrest me. 

I came to my attorney and explained, and he asked me to have them 
arrested. 

Mr. Gray. You mean I asked them to have you arrested if they 
had anything against you. 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right, I am sorry. Of course, I didn't do it. 

Mr. Halley. Who in the police department has had a grievance 
against you, Mr. Weisberg? 

Mr. Gray. Go ahead and name them. 

Mr. Weisberg. Detective Jerry Foley and Superintendent Richard- 
son. They are the only two who ever bothered me. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any arguments with them that 
might have led to that ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir; never. 

Mr. Halley. What would you give as the reason why they would 
bother you? 

Mr. Weisberg. If I may say this, they were using a smoke screen 
for themselves and using me. That is the best thing I can say. 

Mr. Halley. Could you elaborate on that a bit ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Evidently to cover themselves up. Any time any- 
thing would happen around here they would blame me for it. I spent 
very little time around here. 

Mr. Halley. We gather from Richardson that there must be some 
lotteries operating 

Mr. Weisberg. I want you to know, gentlemen, I am not here — 
from what I read in the paper, he has a job to do, and he is doing it. 
Whether he is doing it well or not, I don't know, but I know I suffered 
for it for 10 years. Whatever went on around here, "he was the gang 
leader, he was the gangster, he was everything around here, he and 
his mob." 

As far as I am concerned, I haven't been here for 10 years. That 
goes for Stromberg, 8 or 10 years, too. 

Why he says that, I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Do you think he is trying to cover up some other 
people ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes; I do. 

Mr. Halley. Who do you think he is trying to cover up ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I wouldn't know. I haven't been around here. He 
must have some method in doing it. I don't know why he does it. 

Mr. Halley. Why do you think he is trying to cover anyone else 
up ? We ought to get to the bottom of this. It is important. 

Mr. Weisberg. I am going to tell you everything. I am going to 
cooperate with you to the best of my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. Why don't you try to tell me in your own way ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I will. I will tell you like I told you before. 



ORG.\JSiIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE HI 

I was persecuted around here. Maybe I shouldn't use that word. 
Maybe I am police property. Like I said before, I couldn't stick my 
head out the window unless someone was there to molest me or harass 
me. I couldn't take my wife to a moving picture. On two or three 
occasions they threw me out of restaurants and took me into city hall 
downstairs, and questioned me two or three — not questioned me, but 
walk in and curse me, and wouldn't let me call my attorney on many 
occasions, which I can prove. That is how it went on. 

One day I visited Mr. Herman Taylor in his ofllce — and Mr. Gray's 
office is about three buildings away — about 5 : 30 in the afternoon, and 
Mr. Richardson had 20 detectives downstairs, and had them on all 
floors. I couldn't leave the building. I was going to leave. So Mr 
Taylor advised me to call my attorney. 

As it happened, Mr. Gray had a meeting in his office, and I caught 
him in his office, and I said, "Bill, I am in Herman's office. We are 
here alone. We are ready to go out and have dinner, and there are 
50 detectives downstairs. They are going to knock my brains out." 

He said, "Don't you leave the building until I arrive." INlr. Gray 
is sitting right here. When he walked me out, they fell in holes, 

Mr. Gray. He is expressing it in his own way. 

Mr. Weisberg. That is the only way I can express it. 

Mr. Gray. Go ahead. 

Mr. Weisberg. I jumped in an automobile I had, was driving, and 
drove Mr. Gray home, and then Mr. O'Malley took me home, drove 
it until I got in the house. 

Is that the truth, Mr. Gray ? 

Mr. Gray. That is all right. I can't testify. 

Mr. Weisberg. Excuse me. 

I am not here to prosecute nobody. You asked me a question, and 
I am telling you. 

Mr. Halley. Who is Jerry Foley ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Detective. 

Mr. Halley. Does he work for Richardson ? 

Mr. Weisberg. To the best of my knowledge, he does. 

Mr. Halley. In what capacity ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That I wouldn't know. I am not that familiar 
with it. 

Mr. Halley. Do they have the job 

Mr. Gray. May I clarify it for you? I mean, to say he is a 
detective 

Mr. Halley. I have a pretty fair idea of it. I am trying to get Mr. 
Weisberg's thoughts 

Mr. Gray. Excuse me, I am sorry. , 

Mr. Halley. Rather than clarification otherwise. Thank you, 
though. 

Mr. Weisberg, do Richardson and Foley have the job of finding 
the people who are responsible for the policy number racket in this 
city ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know what positions. I know they are 
police officials. One is a superintendent ; the other is a detective. 

Mr. Halley. You said they were trying to cover themselves up. 
There must be something they are trying to cover up. What is there 
they have to cover ? 



112 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Weisberg. That I wouldn't know. They are doing this to me 
for some reason. Any time anything would happen around this city, 
Mr. Halley, it would be William Weisberg ; and I wasn't in the city. 
The newspapers would come out with it, "Willie Weisberg this, and 
Willie Weisberg that," and I wasn't even in the city. I was out of 
town. 

Mr. Halley. Are they trying to cover up Buck Myer, perhaps ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Who is Buck Myer? 

Mr. Weisberg. I know the gentleman. 

Mr. Halley. II' v/ long have you known him? 

Mr. Weisberg. About 20 years. It is Buck Mayer. M-a-y-e-r. 
You don't mind my correcting you ? 

Mr. Halley. No; I appreciate that. 

What is Mayer's relationship with Richardson? 

Mr. Wesberg. That I don't know. He is very close to him. That 
I can say. 

Mr. Halij:y. Does Mayer work for the police department ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You say he is very close to Richardson ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Very close. 

]Mr. Halley. Have you seen them together? 

Mr. Weisberg. I can't remember that. sir. 

Mr. Halley. What makes you say he is close to him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. The reason I say that is from talk that I hear. That 
is the only way I can explain it. 

Mr. Halley. You mean your understanding is that there is some 
close relationship between Rk-hardson and Msiyer; is that right? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. 

Excuse me a minute. Do you mind my interrupting you ? 

Mr. Halley. No. Go ahead. 

Mr. Weisberg. You fellows have good investigators ; you know the 
name. Buck Mayer. Go and investigate it. It won't be hard to find 
out. I am not trying to tell you what to do. I can't go under oath 
and say, because I haven't been around here. I have had nothing to do 
around here for the last 10 years. 

Mr. Halley. What is the talk about Richardson and Mayer? 

Mr. Weisberg. That they are very close; that they are together 
quite often. That is all I can say. I can't say anything else. 

Mr. Halley. Do they have financial dealings, according to the 
talk? 

Mr. Weisberg. I can't go on record to say that. I would be telling 
a lie if I say they have financial dealings, only from hearsay that they 
are very, very close. 

Mr. Halley. Have you heard rumors that they have financial 
dealings? 

Mr. Weisberg. No ; I haven't. I can't say that. The reason I can't 
say it is that I can't prove it. 

Mr. Halley. But you believe it, obviously. 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Halley. What is Mayer's business? 

Mr. Weisberg. To my knowledge, nothing. 

Mr. Halley. Is he rumored to have something to do with the num- 
bers business ? 



ORG.\JS^IZED CRIlVrE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 113 

Mr. Weisbekg. I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. Or with gambling? 

Mr. Weisbekg. I don't think so. I have never known him to be in 
the gambling bnsiness. 

Mr. Halley. But he has nothing else 

Mr. Weisbekg. The last I heard of Buck Mayer, he had a saloon, a 
club, that you could visit at late hours, at Fifty-second and Sansom 
Streets. 

Mr. Halley, Does he know a lot of people in the gambling business? 

Mr. WEisr.ERG. An awful lot, an awful lot. The majority of people 
in the gambling business in Philadelphia, Buck Mayer does know. 

Mr. Halley. Do they visit him in his club ? 

Mr. Weisbekg. That I don't know, 

Mr. Halley, Or does he contact them on the streets and in other 
places ? 

Mr, Weisbekg. I don't know where he contacts them, 

Mr. Halley, But he sees them regularly, is that the idea? 

Mr. Weisbekg. I think so. 

Mr. Halley. Does he generally report back to Richardson after he 
sees them ? 

Mr, Weisbekg. That I don't know. Like I told you before, Mr. 
Halley, I am out of town, and I am just giving you what I heard. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Mr. Stromberg? 

Mr. Weisbekg. Twenty years, I think. 

Mr. Halley, How did you first happen to meet him ? 

Mr. Weisbekg. I met Mr. Stromberg, I believe, in Atlantic City 
when he first got married. 

Mr. Halley, When was that? 

Mr, Weisbekg, I thin^k in 1931, His wife was an entertainer in a 
club, and I knew his wife before I knew him, I believe that is the 
first time I ever met him, 

Mr, Halley, I believe he testified — and Mr. Gray was here, so if I 
state anything wrong he will pounce right on me — I believe he testi- 
fied that he came to Philadelphia because his wife liked to live here, 
and suggested it was a nice city to live in. 

Mr, Weisbekg. You asked me when I met him, and I explained to 
you, Mr. Halley, I believe the first time 

Mr. Halley, I am just trying to get the picture. 

Mr, Weisbekg. The first time I remember meeting Mr. Stroiiiberg 
was in Atlantic City through his wife, who was working in a cafe. 

Mr. Halley, She is a Philadelphia girl ? 

Mr, Weisbekg. No. 

Mr. Halley, I see, 

Mr. Weisbekg, His wife, I believe, comes from around Linden, 
N. J., some small town in New Jersey, 

Mr. Halley. In those days, what was your business? 

Mr. Weisbekg. In those days ? 

Mr. Halley. In 1931. 

Hr. Weisbekg. I refuse to answer on the grounds it may incriminate 
me of a Federal oflFense, 

Mr, Halley. We went through this yesterday with Mr. Strom- 
berg, and finally he did answer, I believe, on advice of counsel, I 
limited the question specifically to what was his business before 1932, 



114 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

bearing in mind that any offense committed in 1932 could not be 
prosecuted today because of the statute of limitations. 

Mr. Weisberg. Will that go on record ? 

Mr. Gray. Just a moment. I believe that Mr. Stromberg — and, of 
course, the record will show what the situation is — even refused to 
answer that question about his business. 

Mr. Halley. You then advised him to answer, and he admitted 
he was in the liquor business and violated the Prohibition Act. 

Mr. Gray. You are right about that. He admitted he was ; I think 
he did, but I am not quite sure. 

Mr. Halley. The question was: "Were you a bootlegger in pro- 
hibition days?" 

Mr. Gray. I think he did answer that. If you want to put that 
direct question to Mr. Weisberg, I would advise him to answer. 

Mr. Halley. Were you a bootlegger during prohibition days before 
1933? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have any connection with the liquor business 
before 1933? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Were you in the gambling business before 1933? 

Mr. Weisberg. I refuse to answer on the grounds it may incriminate 
me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. For the same reason, I ask the committee to direct 
an answer to that question; the reason being, naturally, that the 
statute of limitations must obviously have expired on any offense 
before 1933. 

Senator O'Conor. Yes ; as acting chairman, I do instruct the witness 
t<j answer. 

Mr. Weisberg. I refuse to answer on the grounds it may incriminate 
me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. May the record show that the witness has been in- 
structed to answer by the chairman. 

Mr. Gray. The record will show it, I take it, because the Senator 
did instruct him. 

Mr. Halley. You and Harry Stromberg became very good friends ; 
is that right ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You went into business together in what year? 

Mr. Weisberg. I believe it was 1940. 

Mr. Halley. In 

Mr. Weisberg. In Wilmington, Del. 

Mr. Halley. And remained in that business for about 2 years? 

Mr. Weisberrg. He remained in the business for about 2 years, a 
little over 2 years, I believe, and the money ran out, and both of us 
and the manager paid some of the bills, not quite all the bills, and 
he left. He went to New York. 

Senator O'Conor. Under vrhat name did tlie business operate? 

Mr. Weisberg. Martin's Clothing, Inc. 

Senator O'Conor. In Wilmington ? 

]\Ir. Weisberg. That is right. 

Senator O'Conor. Were there any other branches or outlets in other 
cities? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 115 

Mr. Halle Y. Have you luul any other legitimate business at all 
at any time? 

Mr. Weisberg. Years back, I sold jewelry and tried to make a liv- 
ing the best I could. 

Mr. Halley. In what period? 

Mr. Weisberg. 1923, 11)24 ; drove a taxicab. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have a taxi job ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Up to what year were you engaged in those pursuits? 

Mr. Weisberg. Say that again. 

Mr. Halley. Up to what year were you engaged in those occupa- 
tions? 

Mr. Weisberg. Occupations? I drove a cab, I believe, in 1921; 
from 1921 to 1922, I believe, I drove a cab; and from 1922 to 1925, I 
sold jewelry, peddled jewelry on the street. 

Mr. Halley. Since 1925, have you had any legitimate business, 
other than the Wilmington operation? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Where do you live? 

Mr. Weixsber^. Wyngate Hall, Fiftieth and Spruce. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have a residence in Florida ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You go to Florida each winter ; do you not ? 

Mr. AVeisberg. The last five or six winters; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Does Gappy Hoffman also live at Wyngate Hall? 

Mr. Weisberg. The same place. 

Mr. Halley. He is a friend of yours, too ? 

Mr. Weisberg. A very good friend of mine. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Hoffman ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Twenty years, around 20 years. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you stay this last winter in Florida? 

Mr. Weisberg. The Sans Souci. 

Mr. Halley. The Sans Souci ? 

]Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What other hotels have you stayed at in Miami and in 
the Miami Beach area ? 

Mr. Weisberg. What years? You mean since I have been going 
there ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. I can remember from 1946, 1947, and 1948, 1 stayed 
at the Sands Hotel. In 1949, of course, I stayed in the Sans Souci. 

Mr. Halley. You stayed at no other hotel ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever stay at the Wofford ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Or the Boulevard? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Or the Grand ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Who owns the Sands Hotel ? 

Mr. Weisberg. David Glass and Ben Street. 

Mr. Halley. They come from Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known them ? 



116 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Weisberg. Glass, I have known for 20 years, maybe a little 
over. Street, I have known all my life, 35 years. 

Mr. Halley. Have you any investment in the Sands Hotel? 

Mr, Weisberg. No. sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business connection with Glass 
or Street? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. In this past winter, 1949-50, how long did you spend 
in Florida ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I arrived in Florida the first day the Sans Souci 
opened up. I think it was on the 20th of December. I am not sure of 
that date. I stayed for 8 or 9 weeks, I believe. 

Mr. Halley. Did you, shortly after leaving Florida, go out to Hot 
Springs ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Shortly after Florida, I was in Hot Springs. I be- 
lieve I did. 

Mr. Halley. How long were you in Hot Springs ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I was in Hot Springs, I think, 10 or 11 days. 

Mr. Halley. During what month ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I think it was in — let's see, January, February, 
March — I think it was in April or May. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. What other cities have you visited this yeai', 1950 ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Outside of Atlantic City and New York — I am not 
speaking of 2 or 3 miles across the bridge from here — Atlantic City 
and New York within the last year, outside of Florida. 

Mr. Halley. How often do you see Kosen ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Quite often. 

Mr. HxVLLEY. About once a week, would you say ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No ; not that often. 

Mr. Halley. Once a month ? 

Mr. Weisberg. There is a month go by and I don't see him, 4 or 5 
months. Then there is a month that I see him twice a month. 

Mr. Halley. You were together in Hot Springs for some days ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Then you were probably together in Florida this 
winter for some time ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. He didn't spend much time there. 
He was up and back from Florida. 

Mr. Halley. You did see him when he was there ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How often have you been to New York this year ? 

Mr. Weisberg. This year? To the best of my knowledge, not over 
five times. 

Mr. Halley. What hotel do you stay at in New York ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I sleep at a turkish bath called the Luxor Bath. 

Mr. Halley. On Seventh Avenue ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Between Sixth and Seventh Avenue on Forty-Sixth 
Street. "^ 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Erickson ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I saw him one time in my life, in person, other than 
a picture in the paper. 

Mr. Halley. You know Mugsy Taylor ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Very well. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSITATE COMMERCE 117 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Herman Taylor? 

Mr. Weisberg. 25 years, I guess. 

Mr. Halley. Have 3^ou ever had any business relationships with 
Taylor? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir; none whatsoever. 

Mr. Halley. None of any kind at all ? 

JNIr. Weisberg. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever met Frank Costello ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I believe I saw him in a restaurant in Florida. 

Mr. Halley. Were you introduced to him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. I don't know the man. I mean, only to 
see. 

Mr. HalIvEY. You have never spoken to him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Willie Moretti ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know the name. 

Mr. Halley. You don't know Willie Moretti at all ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. JM-o-r-e-t-t-i ? 

Mr. Weisberg. The name I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know James Rutkin ? 

Mr. Weisberg. By sight. 

Mr. Halley. You do laiow him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. I saw him in Hot Springs. 

Mr. Halley. When did you see him in Hot Springs ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I believe the last time I was there, I think ; or the 
time before, maybe. 

Mr. Halley. Did you meet him at Hot Springs ? 

Mr. Weisberg. He was there when I arrived. 

Mr. Haixey. You spoke to him there, though ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Oh, yes. "Hello, how are you?" There is one 
street there, and you meet everyone. 

Mr. Halley. Were you with Stromberg when you met him? 

Mr. Weisberg. That I don't remember, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Adonis? 

Mr. Weisberg. By sight only. 

Mr. Halley. You have never spoken to him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. "Hello." 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Longie Zwillman ? 

Mr. Weisberg. By sight. 

Mr. Halley. You have never spoken to him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. "Hello." 

Mr. Halley. What do you mean by "Hello ?" 

Mr. Weisberg. I would see him and nod. 

Mr. Halley. You have been introduced, then ? 

Mr. Weisberg. To Zwillman, I don't think I have, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever sat at the same table with him at a 
restaurant ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir, probably in the same restaurant with 
him. I can't remember that. When I say "often," I have seen him 
in restaurants or cafes, but never in his party. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know James Lynch ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 



118 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. You say you know Joe Adonis to nod to ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, '"Hello." 

Mr. Halley. Have you actually been introduced to Joe x\donis ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Augie Pisano ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Augie Pisano ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I have seen Augie — when I say "seen" him, I have 
known him — the first time I met Augie Pisano was at the Camden 
^ace Track, the first year it opened up, the first or second year. Then 
they chased me off the track. 

Mr. Halley. That was around 1946 ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Something like that ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to Augie ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know. Someone introduced me on th© 
track. He was getting tips on horses. Somebody went with him that 
I knew. I forget who it was. I was trjdng to get the horses from 
liim. 

Mr. Halley. Did you see Frank Erickson at the Camden track, too? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Bert Briggs ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Or Al Cantor? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Frank Straiter ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Johnny King? 

Mr. Weisberg. Johnny who ? 

Mr. Halley. King. 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Since I have been going to Florida. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Massei in Florida ? 

Mv. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Is he a good friend of yours ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir ; I wouldn't say so. Just an acquaintance. 

Mr. Halley. He lives at the Sands Hotel, doesn't he? 

Mr. Weisberg. Not to my knowledge. Not while I lived there. 

Mr. Halley. Perhaps he lives at the Grand Hotel ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know that. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever seen Joe Massei in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Weisberg, No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business dealings with Joe 
Massei ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Jimmie LaFontaine? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business dealings with Jimmie 
L/aFontaine? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Do you know Lou Kenny ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Where ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I met Kenny on a race track. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX IXTERSTATE COMMERCE 119 

. Senator O'Conor. In and around Washington ever? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Did you ever see him in Washington ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. I met him in Florida. 

Senator O'CoNOR. Do you know JuUus Fink? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Where did you know him? 

Mr. Weisberg. I knew him for 20 years, if he is from Baltimore. 

Senator O'Conor. By what name? 

Mr. Weisberg. Blinky. 

Senator O'Conor. Have you been to Baltimore to see him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I haven't been to Baltimore in over a year. I have 
seen him in Baltimore. 

Senator O'Conor. Prior to that, did you see him very frequently? 

Mr. Weisberg. Quite often, quite often. 

Senator O'Conor. Without going into details, now, could you give 
us an idea of the nature of the business that you had with him? 

Mr. TFeisberg. I had no business with him other than friendly 
business, or I would say this : If there was any kind of show or fight 
around, he would call or he would come up. He was just a good friend 
of mine. 

Senator O'Conor. Do you know wdiat business he is engaged in? 

Mr. Weisberg. No ; I don't, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Counsel has asked you with regard to Jimmie 
LaFontaine. Where did you visit him? 

Mr. Weisberg. I never visited Mr. LaFontaine. 

Senator O'Conor. Where did you see him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I would like to <^o on record to say this. Mr. Gold- 
schein asked me this question, v^liether I was ever in Mr. LaFon- 
taine's place, and I said "no." Later — he asked me a hundred ques- 
tions, and later, thinking about it, I was in Mr. Li! Fontaine's place. 
I made quite a few bets on horses in his gambling house. 

Senator O'Conor. Located where? 

Mr. Weisberg. In Maryland, near Washington, on a road 

Senator O'Conor. Known as the Maryland Athletic Club? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. 

Senator O'Conor. And when was that ? Just about, approximately 
the year. 

Mr. Weisberg. The last time I was there? 

Senator O'Conor. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. I think 1945 or 1946. 

Senator O'Conor. Four or five years ago ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I will tell you, I will go on record to say this, that I 
would like to correct that in some way, that mistake I made with 
Mr. Goldschein. 

Mr. Gray. That is not a matter for this committee. 

Senator O'Conor. Except, if you wish to state in some detail now 
that you have the opportunity, it is perfectly in order, if you wish to, 
so as to avoid this record's appearing to be in conflict with the other, 
and maybe at a later date saying — what I am trying to say is that I 
do not want you to be restricted in giving any details here, so that 
at a later date it may be said that you had a chance jaut did not vol- 
unteer. So you are at perfect liberty to give any details. 



120 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Weisberg. The only detail I would like to give, I stated I was 
never in the man's place. I want to go on record saying that I remem- 
ber being in the man's place. 

Senator O'Conor. You thought it over afterwards and, to the best 
of your knowledge, it was either around 1945 or 1946? 

Mr. Weisberg. Something like that. 

Senator O'Conor. And you placed bets there? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Without giving the exact amounts, which you 
cannot do, were the bets of considerable size, or otherwise? 

Mr. Weisberg. I tell you that I wouldn't remember. 

Senator O'Conor. Were gambling operations of any size being con- 
ducted there at the time ? 

Mr. Weisberg. There were some crap games there, and, of course, 
horses and blackjack. That is all, to the best of my knowledge. 

Senator O'Conor. How many times would you say you were at 
La Fontaine's place? 

Mr. Weisberg. Prior to that, I really can't remember. 

Senator Kefauver. Let the record show that the chairman is here, 
but I want Senator O'Conor to act as chairman. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Stromberg at the Maryland Athletic 
Club? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. H'alley. Who introduced you to LaFontaine? 

Mr. Weisberg. Herman Taylor, I believe. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Taylor at the Maryland Athletic 
Club? 

Mr. Weisberg. I can't remember whether I did or not, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever go there with anyone else ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I guess I was with some fellows, but who, I can't 
remember. Horse players, you know. I can't remember who, so 
far back. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever own any part of the Maryland Athletic 
Club? 

Mr. Weisberg. I refuse to answer that on the grounds it may in- 
criminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any financal transactions, other 
than betting at a dice game, with Jimmie LaFontaine ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I refuse to answer that on the ground it may in- 
criminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether or not Mugsy Taylor was an 
owner or part owner of the Maryland Athletic Club? 

Mr. Weisberg. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever told that he was an owner or part 
owner ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Mugsy Taylor take any action with 
reference to the Maryland Athletic Club by nature of directing its 
affairs? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see him give any orders to any employee 
of the Maryland Athletic Club ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME TN INTERSITAT?E COMMERCE. 121 

Mr. Halley, Do j'oii know whether Herman Taylor ever received 
any money from Jimmie LaFontaine ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever receive any money from Jimmie LaFon- 
taine? 

Mr. Weisberg. I refuse to answer on the ground it may incriminate 
me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. The witness has refused to answer that line of ques- 
tions, as you observed, Mr. Chairman. ISIay I ask the chairman to 
direct him to answer ? 

Mr. Gray. I differ as to "that line of questions." 

Senator O'Conor (presiding). Counsel, as was the case yesterday, 
it could, if agreeable to you, be understood that the series of questions 
asked, without having it repeated each time, would be considered 
asked with the approval of the committee. 

Mr. Gray. It may so be considered. 

Senator O'Conor. And the witness will be required to answer them. 

Mr. Gray. I don't think it is necessary to waste time with that 
technicality. 

Senator O'Conor. Our purpose is just to avoid the repetition. 

Mr. Gray. It may so show. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have any interest in the Maryland Athletic 
Club financially ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I refuse to answer on the ground it may incriminate 
me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Neddie Herbert ? 

Senator O'Conor. Counsel, have you finished that? Before you 
leave that, without involving yourself or without answering anything 
that would necessarily relate to you, Mr. Weisberg, are you in pos- 
session of any information that you know, from your observations of 
whoever you saw there when you visited these several times, that there 
was protection given to the place ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I wouldn't know, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Was it operating pretty openly ? 

Mr. Weisberg. There is a fence around the place, and there are a 
lot of automobiles there. 

Senator O'Conor. It is so situated that it would be observed from 
the roads and nearby ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't think you could see it off the road. Senator 
O'Conor. 

Senator O'Conor. It is not too far away ? 

Mr. Weisberg. There is a real tall fence, if my memory serves me 
well, and you can't see anything until you get into the road, and 
then you see the building. 

Senator O'Conor. It was, however, a big operation? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir; I would call it. 

Senator O'Conor. There was not any apparent effort to conceal 
or to keep the thing under cover ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Not once you get inside. 

Senator O'Conor. That is what I mean. 

Senator Kefauver. Was there anything to stop you from getting 
inside the fence? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 



122 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Kefauver. When you got inside the fence, there the 
building was? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Senator Ivefauver. Were automobiles parked outside the fence, 
too ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. To my knowledge, they were all inside 
the fence. 

Senator O'Conor. On the occasions when you visited, was it gen- 
erally on successive nights? Were you there for a long period of 
time ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't remember being there at night. I played 
some horses in the daytime. I don't remember tliat at any time I 
was ever there in the night. 

Senator O'Conor. During the day, several times a week, or anything 
of that kind? 

Mr. Weisberg. Never. 

Senator O'Conor. AVas Julius Fink there with you ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Was Julius Fink ever there with me? 

Senator O'Conor. Blinky. 

Mr. Weisberg. To my knowledge, no, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. What places in Baltimore did vou visit with 
Blinky ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Restaurants, his home. 

Senator O'Conor. Any gambling places? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. sir. I never heard of a gambling place in Balti- 
more, an open gambling place ; I mean, like LaFontaine's. 

Senator O'Conor. That is exactly what I was anxious to get, and for 
you to give us any detail. You say you never saw an open place like 
LaFontaine's, but you did consider LaFontaine's an open place? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You stated that you are trying, within the bounds of 
properly protecting yourself, to help the committee? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. I wonder, as an expert, could you give the committee 
some idea of how a man like LaFontaine could have accumulated the 
sum of 11/2 million dollars in currency, which was found in his box 
when he died ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Mr. Halley, if I knew how I probably would try to 
do it myself. I don't know how he made that kind of money. I never 
saw that kind of money in my life. 

Mr. Halley. The people who run gambling houses have opportuni- 
ties to make that kind of money ? 

Mr. Weisberg. If they found it, he evidenth' made it there. It is 
the only business I ever knew him to be in. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever in the Lodi place in New Jersey, in 
northern New Jersey ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. I don't believe I was ever in northern New 
Jersey in my life, not only in the place. I don't know what the place 
is. I don't believe I was ever in a restaurant. 

Mr. Halley. The place that your friend. Mr. Rutkin, had a piece of. 

Mr. Weisberg. Never in my life, sir. I don't know where it is. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Louis Greenberg in Chicago? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 123 

Mr. Halley. You know who I mean ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, 

Mr. Halley. The man who owns Canadian Ace Boer. 

Mr. Weisberg. No, I don't, sir. I don't know who you are talking 
about. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Jake Guzik of Chicago? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. If I saw — Jack Guzik, you mean? 

JMr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. I saw his picture in magazines. 

Mr. Halley. You have never met either of those gentlemen? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever met Charlie Fischetti ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Charlie Fischetti ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Charlie Fischetti, the first time I saw him I believe 
was in Florida. 

Mr. Halley. In what year? 

Mr. AVeisberg. In 1945 or '40, one of the 2 3'ears. 

Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to Charlie Fischetti? 

Mr. Weisberg. Who introduced me to Charlie Fischetti? I don't 
remember, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had rny business dealings with Charlie 
Fischetti ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No ; none whatsoever. 

JNIr. Halley. Have you ever seen Charlie Fischetti in Atlantic 
City? 

Mr. Weisberg. I think I saAv Charlie Fischetti in Atlantic City 3 
or 4 years ago, on the boardwalk. 

Mr. Halley. Was he with anyone else? 

Mr. Weisberg. When I saw him, I think he was with Herman 
Taylor. I think he was with Herman Taylor. 

ilr. Halley. Was anyone else with him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did 3'ou know Al Ca])one ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I never saw the man in person in my life. 

Mr. Halley. You never saw Al Capone in your life? 

Mr. Weisberg. In person; no, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Why do you qualify it in that way? 

Mr. Weisberg. He asked me if I know him. If I knew him person- 
ally, I would say, "Yes." I never saw him to look at him in pferson, 
only in a picture. 

Senator O'Coxor. You really did not know him? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Al Capone was in prison here in Philadelphia ; wasn't 
he? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether or not, when Al Capone was 
released from prison, he went first to the home of Mugsy Taylor? 

Mr. Weisberg. That I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. You have heard that ; have you not ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, I haven't ; no, I haven't. 

Mr. Halley. Fischetti stays at the home of Mugsy Taylor in At- 
lantic City ; does he not ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir : not to mv knowledge. 



124 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Hauley. You have never heard that ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Mickey Cohen ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Meyer Lansky ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir ; by sight. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever seen him with Stroniberg? 

Mr. Weisberg. Have I ever seen Lansky and Stromberg? I don't 
think I did, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to Lansky ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I think Stromberg. 

Mr. Halley. Where ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Who is Don Halper? 

Mr. Weisberg. Say that again, please? 

Mr. Halley. Don Halper, H-a-1-p-e-r. 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know a man named Jack Lewis ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any dealings with the jukebox business? 

Mr. W^EiSBERG. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You have never had any concern with it ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Not at all. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any connection, remote, direct or 
indirect with a motor sales company in Media, Pa ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

JNIr. Halley. Do you know Johnny DeYoung? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What is his business ? 

Mr. Weisberg. A detective. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know John Hackett ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known them? 

Mr. Weisberg. Hackett, I have known as long as I have known 
Richardson. 

Mr. Halley. That would be about 20 or 25 years ? 

Mr. Weisberg. 25 years. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Johnny DeYoung ? 

Mr. Weisberg. About 5 or 6 years. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in Hackett's home ? 

Mr .Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Has he ever been in yours ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever entertained him? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had meals together anywhere? 

Mr. Weisberg. Not together. In the same restaraunt that I have 
had my meals in, I have seen him. 

Mr .Halley. You have never been at the same table? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know about that. Maybe I walked over to 
say "Hello." 

Mr. Halley. You never paid for a meal for him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME ITST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 125 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever give him a gift? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley, Have you ever given a gift to any police officer of the 
city of Philadelphia ? 

%h\ "Weisberg. I refuse to answer that on the ground I may incrim- 
inate myself of a Federal offense. . 

Mr. Halley. You understand that under the rule set by the chair, 
you are directed to answer that ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I refuse to answer. 

Senator O'Conor. In other words, I am not repeating it, but that is 
the understanding. 

INIr. Weisberg. That is all right, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. The committee does instruct you to answer, and 
it is understood that you have declined. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever entertained any member of the police 
force of Philadelphia? 

Mr, Weisberg, No, sir. 

Mr, Halley. You never entertained any of them ? 

Mr. Weisberg, No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. But you feel you should exercise your constitutional 
privilege with respect to the question of whether you have ever given 
a police officer a gift, is that right ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That I refuse to answer it on the ground it may in- 
criminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Gray. He has indicated it. 

Senator O'Conor. He has indicated it. 

You stated to the committee that Richardson is unfriendly to you ? 

Mv. Weisberg. That is right. 

Senator O'Conor. Who, of the Philadelphia officers, are you most 
friendly with? 

ISIr. Weisberg. Friendly with ? 

Senator O'Conor. In other words, having lived here since the age 
of 6 months, you certainly know a lot of officers. Who, of the Philadel- 
phia officers, are you on the friendliest of terms with ? 

Mr, Weisberg, To term it friendly, not any ; real friendly, not any. 

Senator O'Conor. You certainly know them all because, as you indi- 
cated today, when you were up in the building and met Mr. Gray and 
drove him home, you certainly knew them all. 

Mr. Weisberg. By sight. 

Senator O'Conor, Yes. Your activities around town here since you 
were old enough to know anything are certainly such that you know, I 
guess, all or most all of the officers, at least the ones 

Mr. Weisberg. By sight, Senator O'Conor. 

Senator O'Conor. Have you not been on friendlier terms with any 
of them than that ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Do you want to offer any explanation of why, 
then, you decline to answer the question propounded to you by Mr. 
Halley as to whether you have made any gifts to any, if you do not 
know any of them or have not been on friendly terms with them ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I refuse to answer that on the grounds it may in- 
criminate me of a Federal offense. 

Senator O'Conor. All right. 

68958 — 51 — pt. 11 9 



126 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Hallet. Were you ever in the Locust Cafe ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Where is that located ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Forty-fiftli and Locust Street. 

Mr. Halley. Who owns it ? 

Mr. Weisberg. To the best of my Ipiowledge, George Nathans. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know him personally ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had a drink there with Hackett ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I will say I have ; yes, sir. 

Mr, Halley. Have you ever had a drink there with De Young ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Hackett and DeYoung are the same two police officers 
we have just mentioned, is that right ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley, Would you say that on more than one occasion you 
have had a drink there with Hackett and DeYoung? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Would you say that on some occasions you have had a 
great many drinks there with Hackett and DeYoung ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Would you say that on some occasions you have had 
a drink at that cafe with other police officers ? 

Mr. Weisberg, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Who bought the drinks ? 

Mr, Weisberg, I bought them a drink. They sent me a drink at 
the bar, 

Mr, Halley. Who sent you a drink at the bar ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Some of the cops. There were six or seven of them 
there. 

Mr. Halley. Is that a hang-out for the cops ? 

Mr, Weisberg. I don't know whether it is a hang-out or not, but it 
seems like every time you go in there, there are police in there. 

Mr. Halley. You go in there pretty often ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I live right close there ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. So you generally see the policemen right in there, is 
that right ? 

JVIr. W^eisberg, Yes, sir ; that is right, 

Mr. Halley. On occasion, j^ou liave sat around all night drinking 
with Hackett and DeYoung, haven't you, at that place? 

Mr. Weisberg. I am going to tell you to the best of my knowledge. 
Unless I had too much to drink, I sat there for the last 5 or 6 years 
many a night with a lot of people, and I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. You have answered the question, so you might just as 
well stay on the path with this thing, and not try to wiggle off it. 

Have you ever been in the Locust Cafe with Benny Street? 

Mr. Weisberg. Have I ever been in the Locust Cafe with Benny 
Street? I think I have, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know a cop named Mays? 

Mr. Weisberg. M'ays? Lieutenant Mays? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in the Locust Cafe with Lieutenant 
Mays? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IIST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 127 

Mr. Weisberg. He has been there M^hile I was there; yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You have had drinks together? 

Mr. Weisberg. I believe we liave. 

Mr. Halley. You liave bouoht him a drink? 

Mr. Weisberg. He bought me a drink ; I boiiglit him a drink. 

Mr. Halley. You are on a quite friendly basis, then? 

Mr. Weisberg. If you buy a person a drink, naturally it is on a 
friendly basis. 

Mr. Halley. How about Nathans? Have vou been in the Locust 
Cafe with Nathans? 

Mr. Weisberg. He is the owner of the place. 

M'r. Halley. He has been sitting there with you drinking? 

Mr. Weisberg. He sat with me quite a few times. 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Who is Dan Shonkes? 

Mr. Weisberg. He is a fellow around Philadelphia I have knoAvn 
for quite a few years'. 

Mr. Halley. What business is he in? 

Mr. Weisberg. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Halley. D es he have any legitimate business? 

Mr. Weisberg. I wouldn't know, sir. 

Mr, Halley. In any event, the Locust Cafe is a hangout where you 
meet a lot of your friends on the police force, is that right ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Will you state that question? I don't want to re- 
fuse to answer it; when you say I meet a lot of my friends on tlie» 
police force. I have no friends on the police force. 

Mr, Halley. Is Hackett a friend of yours? 

Mr. Weisberg. I will put it this way. When I see him, he is pleasant 
to me. 

Mr. Halley. He buys a ou a drink ? 

Mr, Weisberg. That is right. 

Mr, Halley. He is very pleasant? 

M'r. Weisberg. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Halley. Wouldn't you call that a friend, a man who buys you a 
drink? 

Mr. Weisberg, Yes. 

Mr, Halley. Is Hackett a friend of yours ? 

Mr. Weisberg, Not a friend of mine, I don't know how to put that. 
An acquaintance would be better, as far as I could put it. 

Mr, Halley, A drinking acquaintance, let us say ? 

]Mr, Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And is De Young a drinking acquaintance of yours, 
too? 

Mr. Weisberg, Yes. 

Mr. Halley. They are both on the police force? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Lieutenant Maj^s? 

Mr. Weisberg, On a few occasions I have had some drinks with 
him at the Locust Cafe, 

Mr, Halley. Did you ever sit around with INIays and Nathans and 
Benny Street and Hackett and De Young and do a lot of drinking? 

]\lr. Weisberg. About sitting around, that I won't answer. I was 
in the same room and drank with them. 



128 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. You were all in one party ? You weren't in diftei^^nv 
parties ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No ; we were not in one party. There were different 
tables. If we wandered from one table to another, that is the only 
way we could have been together ; after having a few drinks, I guess 
we wander around. 

Mr. Halley. And talk ? 

Mr. Weisberg. And talk. 

Mr. Halley. It is a convivial atmosphere, in other words ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is a kind of large word, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. It is a pleasant, friendly atmosphere ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir ; I can understand that. 

Mr. Halley. What other cops do you drink with in the cafe ? 

Mr. Weisberg. By name, I wouldn't know ; only by face, outside of 
those people 3^011 mentioned. 

Mr. Halley. Eichardson? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Captain Elwell ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I never saw him in my life. I don't know who he is. 

Mr. Halley. Vincent Elwell ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know who he is. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Capt. Luke McBride ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know who he is. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Inspector Driscoll? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir ; by sight. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had a drink with him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Never in my life. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Inspector Ellis, Craig Ellis? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know the gentleman. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Lt. Clarence Ferguson ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir ; by sight. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had a drink with him? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Detective Joe Hentz ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Detective Charles Perkolup ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You don't know them at all ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You have said that you believe that Richardson is 
persecuting you by arresting you so frequently. 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Yet you live well, is that right? 

Mr. Weisberg. What does that have to do with the persecution by 
Richardson, Mr. Halley? 

Mr. Halley. Let me ask the question, and we will lead up to it, 

Mr. Weisberg. I am sorry. 

Mr. Halley. You live pretty well, don't you ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have an automobile ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What kind? 

Mr. Weisberg. A Cadillac. 



ORGANIZED CRIIVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 129 

Mr. Halley. What year ? 

Mr. Weisberg. 1949. 

Mr. Halley. You spend long periods of time in Florida ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Like I told you. I spent 8 or 9 weeks there last 
year. 

Mr. Halley. You have an apartment here in Philadelphia ? 

]Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Don't you think that it is part of Richardson's duty 
to keep attempting to try to find out how you make a living, since you, 
yourself, say you have no legitimate business? 

Mr. Weisberg. Am I the only one in Philadelphia he has to watch 
day and night, who haven't done anything in Philadelphia for 10 
3'ears ? He has to have a right to walk into a restaurant when I am 
there with my sister and wife, and chase me out of a restaurant? 

Mr. Halley. Are there other people in Philadelphia who also have 
apparently no legitimate means of earning a living, and yet live well ? 

Mr. Weisberg. They evidently have a system, Mr. Halley, around 
here. They set themselves up a Caesar. Wlioever had the O. K. to 
walk around could walk around ; whoever didn't have the O. K. to walk 
around couldn't walk around the city of Philaclel phia. 

Mr. Halley. You don't have the O. K. ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I never did in the last 10 years. 

Mr. Halley. Who did have the O. K.? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. You are making serious charges. 

Mr. Weisberg. The city is full of people who don't have business. 
I am not the only one. 

Mr. Halley. "Who ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know. I haven't been around here. If you 
walk to Broad and Locust, you see 200 people hanging around there. 

Mr, Halley. They may have incomes. We don't know. 

Mr. Weisberg. That I don't know. I know a lot of them who don't 
have an income, not by name, but by looking at them. 

Mr. Halley. Where can we go look at them ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know ; Broad and Locust. 

Mr. Halley. You are not referring just to a bunch of loafers? 1 
am talking about people who live well, who own Cadillac automobiles, 
who go to Florida. Are there any like that whom he doesn't bother. 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't want to tell you what to do. You do liave 
investigators. I don't think it would be too hard tofind out. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know a fellow named Abe Cavis ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Milton Cavis? 

Mr. "^Veisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Mike Landes ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Charles McCuen ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You have never met any of those people? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Do you know Lt. Harry Clark? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. sir. 

vSenator O'Coxor. Very well? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 



130 ORGAIsnZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator O'Conor. Counsel was asking you whether yon had met 
with and had drinks with or had eaten with any officers. How about 
Lieutenant Clark? 

JNIr. Weisberg, I had a drink with him yesterday afternoon after I 
left here. 

Senator O'Conor. Had you been with him on prior occasions ? 
• Mr. Weisberg. Until yesterday, Mr. O'Conor^ I haven't seen Lieu- 
tenant Clark for 4 or 5 years. 

Senator O'Conor. Had you at those times, back 4 or 5 years ago, 
eaten with him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Ever been in company with him at any restau- 
rants or hotels ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No hotels at all. I evidently bumped into him in a 
restaurant — some restaurant which I don't know. 

Senator O'Conor. Did you ever meet with him and have dinner with 
him at the Warwick ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. How come you met him yesterday afternoon? 

Mr. Weisberg. I left this place and walked into a place to have a 
drink, and I was sitting there having a drink, and Mr. Clark walked in. 

Mr. Gray. May I inform the committee that Mr. Clark has not 
been for some time on the police force. 

Senator Kefauver. I see. He sat down with you? 

Mr. Weisberg. No ; he stood at the bar and I got up and had a drink 
with him, and he left. 

Senator O'Conor. You did meet him about 4 or 5 years ago. Was 
]ie on the police force then ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I believe he was so. 

Mr. Gray. That is definite. I have personal knowledge. 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. He is retired. 

Mr. Gray. I attended a banquet for him when he retired. 

Senator Kefauver. How about your apartment at the Warwick? 
" Where is your apartment ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Wyngate Hall, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. Have any of them ever been out to your apart- 
ment ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. Not at all? 

Mr. Weisberg. Not to my knowledge. 

Senator Kefauver. You would know about it if they came? 

Mr, Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. Don't you have parties out there ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. I have a sick wife. 

Senator Kefauver. Your friends don't ever come by your apart- 
ment ? 

Mr. Weisberg. My friends do ; yes. 

Senator Kefauver. Do you entertain at your apartment? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. sir. I have a very small place. 

Senator Kefauver. You say here that no police officer has ever been 
in your apartment? 

Mr. Weisberg. To my memory, no, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. On any of the occasions when you were with 
Lieutenant Clark, was Mugsy Taylor with you ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSITATE COMMERCE 131 

Mr. Weisbeeg. Miigsy Taylor ^^■ils there yesterday afternoon. So I 
walked out of here with him to <>et a (hink. 

Senator O'Conor. That was jnst an accidental meetin<^? 

Mr. AVeisberg. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. In the past, on any previous occasion when you 
were with Lieutenant Chirk, was Mugsy Taylor with you? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't believe so. I couldn't remember, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. You don't remember having any meeting about 
a business a if air? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Palermo? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What business is he in? 

Mr. Weisberg. He is a fight manager. 

JMr. Halley. Does he have any other business? 

Mr. Weisberg. I wouldn't know, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Is he one of the people that Richardson lets walk 
around ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I think he is one of the people that Richardson 
hates. 

Mr. Halley. Richardson hates him, too? 

Mr. V/eisberg. Yes. 

Senator Kefauver. Does he operate the CR Club? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. 

Mr. Gray. That is Palumbo. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Reginelli ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What business is he in? 

Mv. Weisberg. I don't know, sir. 

JMr. Halley. Does he have any legitimate business that you 
know of? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Does Richardson hate him or like him ? 

Mv. Weisberg. That I can't answer. 

Mr. (tray. May I suggest to you that Reginelli does not live in 
Philadelphia. 

Mr. Halley. He lives in Camden? 

Ml-. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Gray. I am only saying these things to try to be helpful. . 

Mv. Halley. Thank you. We appreciate it. 

Do you have any business dealings with these policemen that you 
sometimes drink with, De Young and Hackett? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether they have any business other 
than being policemen? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes : I do. Sergeant De Young has an automobile 
place in Media. He being a nice man, whenever I pass by I stop for 
gas or have my automobile repaired, or any minor thing on the 
Cadillac. Thev have the Plymouth and De Soto agency. 

Mr. Halley.* You didn't buy your Cadillac from them; did you? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. They don't sell Cadillacs, to my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. You haven't had much work on a 1919 Cadillac; have 
you? 

Mr. Weisberg. Not much ; no. 



132 ORGA]SnZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether both DeYoung and Hackett are 
in that ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No ; I wouldn't know, sir. 

Mr, Halley. Who do you think is in it ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I think DeYoung is the owner. 

Mr. Halley. You think DeYoung is the owner. Do you know 
whether Hackett is ever there ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Are they good friends ? 

Mr. Weisberg. To my knowledge ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have occasion to telephone out there fairly 
often ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir; other than for my automobile, getting it 
repaired or something. Before I had this Cadillac, I had an Olds- 
mobile. If there was anything wrong with it, I used to run it out 
there. 

Mr. Halley. Would that be the only reason 3^ou would ever tele- 
phone ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Either your records or theirs should show that pretty 
nearly every time you telephone there your car was in the garage? 

Mr. Weisberg. Something relating to it, relating to my automobile. 

Mr. Halley, You never had any other business with them? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any other garage to take care of your 
automobile ? 

Mr, Weisberg. No, sir. I leave my car on the street. 

Mr, Halley. All the servicing is done by DeYoung ? 

Mr. Weisberg, I wouldn't say all. It is a Cadillac automobile. 
If it is a minor 'adjustment, I run it out there, a change of oil or 
something like that. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know anybody in the Sun Plotel in Chester? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

•Mr. Halley. Who do you know in the Sun Hotel at Chester? 

Mr. Weisberg. Sam Green. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Sam Green? 

Mr. Weisberg. I have known Sam Green for 15 or 20 years, I guess. 

Mr. Halley. Do you ever visit him down there ? 

Mr. Weisberg, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How often ? 

Mr. Weisberg. When I feel like having a drink or when I pass by 
in my automobile, I stop in. 

Mr. Halley. Have you any business relationship with him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know if there is any gambling in the Sun Hotel 
in Chester? 

Mr. Weisberg. To my knowledge ; no, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You have never seen any gambling in the Sun Hotel 
in Chester ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley, Is Frank Palermo a good friend of yours? 

Mr. Weisberg, Yes, sir, I was born and raised with him. 



ORGANIZED CRIME m INTERSTATE COMMERCE 133 

Mr. Halley. Do you see him often? 

]\Ir. AVeisberg. Whenever 1 am in toAvn, I see him. 

Mr. Halley. Do yon have any business reUitionships witli him? 

Mr. WeisberCx. No, sir. 

]Mr. Halley. Have you ever had. any? 

Mr. Weiskerg. I refuse to answer on the grounds it may incriminate 
me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business relationships vritli 
him of a legitimate nature? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir; other than buying tickets off him for a 
fight. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business relationships with 
him in matters which, while they might or might not constitute viola- 
tions of State law, did not constitute violations of Federal law? 

Mr. Weisberg. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it 
may incriminate me of a Federal oifense. 

Mr. Halley. You understand I am excluding any possible viola- 
tions of Federal law. I am just saying, did you ever have any busi- 
ness with him that might or might not have involved a violation of 
State law ? 

ISIr. Weisberg. I refuse to ansvrer that question on the ground it may 
incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

]Mr. Halley. You understand that, by his silence, the chairman is 
instructing vou to answer that question? 

Senator O'Congr. That is so ordered. 

Mr. Gray. I so understand with respect to every question of that 
t3q3e he refuses to answer. 

Senator Kefauver. Have you had any legitimate business witli 
him? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had anv business relationships with Davey 
Glass? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. None at all? 

Mr. Weisberg. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Hai ley. Have you had any with Milky Tickner ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. H.vLLEY. At nny time? 

jMr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mv. Halley. Have you had any business relationships with Julius 
Fink? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any business relationships with Abe 
Minker ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do vou know Abe Minker? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How^ long have you known him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I have known Abe Minker 10 or 12 years, I guess — a 
casual acquaintance. 

Senator 0*Coin:or. If you had no business relations with Julius Fink, 
what was the nature of your telephone calls to him frequently ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Like I said before, if there was some kind of fight or 
baseball game or something or other, he would call me or I would call 
him. We are just good friends. 



134 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator O'Conor. That is the only purpose? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Coxor. You have to have long-distance calls just because 
of that? 

Mr. Weisberg. He would call me ; yes, sir ; if there was a big fight 
here or anything, or a football game; wherever they hold it there, I 
could call him. 

Mr. Halley. How many times have you gone to Hot Springs in the 
last 5 years ? 

Mr. Weisberg. How many times have I gone to Hot Springs in the 
last 5 years ? I would say four or five times. 

Mr. Halley. Could you give the occasions, as best you can? The 
last time was when you were down at the Arlington this spring; is 
that right? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. On this last occasion, that is when you met Rutkin 
there ; is that right ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know whether it was the last occasion or the 
year before. I don't know. I can't remember. 

Mr. Halley. When you met Rutkin, did you have any conversations 
concerning a man named Reinf eld ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. I don't know who Reinfeld is other than 
what I read in the paper. 

Mr. Halley. You have read about Reinfeld ? 

Mr. Weinberg. In the paper ; 3^es. 

]Mr. Halley. You have had no conversation with Rutkin about 
Reinfeld? 

Mr. Weisberg. None whatsoever. 

j\Ir. Halley. Did you have any conversations with Stromberg 
about Reinfeld ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Prior to that, when were you last there? You say 
you are not sure whether this was this year or last year? Would you 
think and try to clarify tliat in your mind ? 

Mr. Weisberg. With Rutkin ? Is that what you mean ? 

Mr. Halley. On the occasion when you saw Rutkin. 

Mr. Weisberg. I would say the trip before this one, this last one. 
I think that is the time I saw him. 

Mr. Halley. You were there this spring? 

JNIr. Weisberg. That is right ; I think it was this spring. 

Mr. Halley. And you were there last spring? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. I think that is about right. 

Mr. Halley. Do you go there every year ? 

]VIr. Weisberg. I try to get there every year, but I have missed quite 
a few years. 

Mr. Halley. Do you ever go to Saratoga Springs ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I haven't been to Saratoga Springs since 1927. 

Mr. Halley. Is Hot Springs a place where people who are known 
to be racketeers gather, particularly the Arlington Hotel ? 

Mr. Weisberg. How would I know, Mr. Halley? I have a hunch. 
I don't know. There are certain things. You ask me a question of 
that type; how would I know what people have in mind when they 
gather, other than my own affairs and my own crowd that I ride with, 
other than seeing people that I know ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME m INTERSTATE COMMERCE 135 

r.ir. Halley. There are certain clubs, certain restaurants, and cer- 
tain hotels 

Mv. Weisberg. There is only one good restaurant. 

Mr. Halley. Where you know you will meet people? 

Mr. Weisberg. You see a lot of people who stay around there. There 
is one street, and it is hard to duck anyone in Hot Springs if you are 
at the Arlington Hotel. 

Mr. Halley. What is the attraction there? 

Mr. Weisberg. The baths. I have a very bad case of bursitis. 
I have had it for 10 years. 

jNlr. Halley. Do you actually take the baths while you are there ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is the only reason I go there. 

Mr. Halley. Do you go every year ? 

Mr. Weisberg. If I can get there, every year; yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you manage to go at about the same time that 
Stromberg goes ? 

Mr, Weisberg. I wouldn't say that I manage to go. Whenever I 
get a pain, I try to go. 

Mr. Halley. You and Stromberg went together this year, didn't 
you, or you joined him there ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I think I joined him there. 

JMr. Halley. Were you there together last year ? 

Mr. Weisberg. The year before? Let me see. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been to California ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Never in my life. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been to Nevada ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Never in my life. 

Mr. Halley. To New Orleans ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Never in my life. 

Mr. Halley. To Arizona ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Never in my life. 

Mr. Halley. New Mexico ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Never in my life. 

Mr. Halley. Chicago ? 

Mv. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You have been to Chicago ? 

Mr. Weisberg. The last time in Chicago was the last world series 
they played there. 

Mr. Halley. I wish you could give us a little more help on this 
matter of Richardson, particularly with reference to Buck Mayer. 

Mr. Weisberg. Mr. Halley, I can't give you that. I haven't been 
around here. The only thing I can give you is what I hear. 

Mr. Halley. You have lived here. 

Mr. Weisberg. I have to go away. I can't stay in my house. I have 
to try to make a living. 

Mr. Halley. You see, you have said you think that Richardson — 
let's see if I am phrasing it right — is persecuting you, 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't think, I know he is. 

Mr. Halley. You say he is trying to do it to cover himself up ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is what I think he is doing it for. 

Mr. Halley. You have said that he is trying to cover up something 
which is a relationship with Buck Mayer ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know about — he may be doing it with five 
other people. 



136 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Doing what? 

Mr. Weisbekg. I don't laiow what he is doing or why he is doing 
this to me. He mnst be using me for a smoke screen. Like I said 
before, any time anything ever happened around here, he would go 
and holler — may I use the words that I want to use ? 

Mr. Halley. Sure. 

Mr. Weisberg. "I would like to take that Jew son-of-a-bitch and 
kill him." He has always instructed his men to do the same thing. 

Mr. Halley. He does the same thing to Palermo ? 

Mr. Weisberg. To my knowledge, yes, sir. He has beat Palermo 
in public at Broad and Locust 3 or 4 years ago, and I think he knocked 
a couple of teeth out of his mouth. 

Mr. Halley. The fact is that both you and Palermo are two gentle- 
men living well, with no obvious means of support, and a cop has a 
right to think maybe you are up to something. 

Mr. Gray. That is just a matter of a statement and an argument. 
You needn't answer that. 

Mr. Halley. Don't you think that a police officer has a right to 
investigate ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Investigating is one thing, and hitting you is another 
thing. 

Mr. Halley. Of course, no officer has a right to hit you. 

Mr. Weisberg. That is true. That is why I am telling you. 

Senator Kefauver. May I interject? Just what do you think he 
is trying to cover up by the persecution of you and others ? 

Mr. Weisberg. By my thinking and telling you people something 
I think, I can't prove and I can't say it. The only thing I do know, 
and the papers will state it, that any time anything ever happened 
around here, he would look for me, no matter if I was in the moving 
pictures or whoever I was with. He would harass me. On several 
occasions 

Senator Kefauver. I did not know whether you thought he was 
doing that to take the spotlight off somebody else. 

Mr. Weisberg. Senator, I said before that you do have investigators, 
and if you would send your investigators out, you could easily find out. 
1 haven't been around here. 

Senator O'Conor. A man with your brains and knowledge and 
intelligence would not expect us to believe that that situation would 
go over, would obtain, unless he had, in your opinion, some ulterior 
reason or purpose in mind for aiming at you all the time. You cer- 
tainly want to be frank with us ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes ; I do. 

Senator O'Conor. You believe that he is doing it for some improper 
purpose ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes ; I do believe that. Yes, sir ; I do believe that. 

Senator O'Conor. I am trying to sum up. 

Mr. Weisberg. That is all right. 

Senator O'Conor. Because it has kept on over such a period of time ; 
it was not just on one occasion or two, but it has been continuous, and 
you have been the butt of the attack all that time. 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. 

Senator O'Conor. You think that he is not doing it just for devotion 
to his duty ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSITATE COMMERCE 137 

Mr. Weisberg. Excuse me. Why doesn't he arrest ine? Why 
doesn't he arrest me and prove something? 

Senator O'Conor. I am trying to get your thoughts about the 
matter. 

Mr. Weisberg. That is all right. 

Senator O'Conor. You do not believe it is because he is attempting" 
to discharge his duty by coming after you all the time? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. 

Senator O'Conor. But that it is in order to cover up something 
else? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. That is what I think. 

Mr, Halley. You think tlie thing he is trying to cover up is his. 
failure to enforce the law against other people ? 

Mr. Gray. Answer the question. 

Mr. Weisberg. I didn't hear it, I am sorry. 

Mr. Halley. You think the thing he is covering up is his failure to 
enforce the law against some other people ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is what I think; yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You thing there is some connection between that and 
his relationship with Buck ISIayer? 

Mr. Weisberg. That I can't answer. You keep hounding on Buck 
Mayer. I haven't been around. The only thing I heard, I told you 
what I heard. I went on record to say before, the only thing I am 
telling you is what I heard, the talk. 

Mr. Halley. What is the talk? 

INIr. Weisberg. That he is very friendly with Buck Mayer, very 
friendly. 

Mr. Halley. And that there is something improper in that friend- 
ship ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I think there is. 

Mr. Halley. Let's put it bluntly. The clear implication of w^hat you 
are saying is that you think that Richardson is getting graft from 
somebody, and that Buck Mayer is collecting it? Is that what you 
mean ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I wouldn't say that. I refuse to answer that on the 
ground it may incriminate me of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Halley. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Gray. I think I should make a statement of my own connection 
with respect to Weisberg and Richardson — I am willing to be sworn 
if the committee desires or thinks I should do so — as to the relation of 
one incident. 

Senator O'Conor. Will you be sworn ? 

In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear that the evidence 
you will give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Gray. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM A. GKAY, ATTORNEY, PHILADELPHIA, 

PA. 

Senator O'Conor. Mr. Gray, you are known to the committee, having 
identified yourself as counsel for the several witnesses who have testi- 
fied heretofore. You have expressed a desire to make a statement, and 
the committee will be very glad to have you do so. 



138 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSITATE COMMERCE 

Mr, Gray. As far as I am personally concerned, I was born in Phila- 
delphia. I have been practicing law here for 53 years. That is so as 
to identify myself. 

It has been a few years ago, and I can't tell you exactly how long — 
I would estimate probably 4 or 5 years ago — that Weisberg came to me 
and told me that Eichardson, meeting him, had said to him he wouldn't 
allow him in the city of Philadelphia, in the central part of the city of 
Philadelphia; that he would deal with him at any time he found him. 

I went over to see George Richardson, whom I know very well per- 
sonally, and I said, "(jeorge, what is the trouble between you and 
Weisberg? If you have anything against him, issue a warrant for 
him and lock him up," 

He said, ''I won't issue any warrant for him and lock him up. The 
next time I see him in the city of Philadelphia, I am going to per- 
sonally split his head wide open. I am going to send him to the 
hospital, and w^ent he gets out of the hospital I will lock him up. You 
w^ill get him out, but the next time I see him after that, I am going 
to do the same thing to him." 

Of course, I argued the matter with him. 

Knowing that there w^as a judge in the city of Philadelphia that 
had some control over Richardson, the next morning I went to the 
judge, and I will tell you exactly what I said to him. May I inter- 
polate that I think that inasmuch as I am giving the committee this 
information, it should not be made generally public. However, I don't 
control that situation. 

I told him what the story was about Richardson. I said to him 
very frankly, "If you don't see Richardson and have him stop this, 
I am going to take some steps in this matter which won't be very 
pleasant for a lot of people in the city of Philadelphia." 

He evidently saw him, because for quite a while Mr. Richardson laid 
off Mr. Weisberg, and then resumed it again. 

Mr. Halley. Was that Judge McDevitt? 

Mr. Gray. It was Judge McDevitt. 

That is my complete statement. I will answer any questions. 

Senator Kefauver. Wliat is your diagnosis of why ? 

Mr. Gray. Now you are asking me for an opinion? 

Senator Kefauver. I do not want you to make any long explanation. 

Mr. Gray. I understand that. 

Senator Kefauvt^r. Just like Mr. Weisberg, do you think he is cov- 
ering up for somebody else, a smoke screen ? If you do not want to 
express an opinion, I will not press you. 

Mr. Gray. I will be very glad to express an opinion. Senator, but I 
am wondering what my situation is with respect to expressing an 
opinion here, which might be considered to be definitely slanderous? 
I don't care to subject myself, of course, to any personal altercation 
with him, outside of the one I have told you about, nor to any litiga- 
tion with him. If the committee thinks that I am protected in any 
way in connection w^ith the matter, I will voice my opinion without 
hesitation, but I have my own doubt about the protection that I have. 

Mr. Halley. You are testifying, and you are answering a proper 
question by a member of the committee. Perhaps you could answer 
better a question which might be directed to asking you if you know 
anything of the relationship between Richardson and McDevitt. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 139 

Mr. Gray. Nothing, except that it was reputed that he was very 
close to McDevitt, and that McDevitt coukl control him and could tell 
him what he should do and what he shouldn't do. 

Mr. Halley. What was McDevitt's re]nitation? 

Mr. Gray. May I be ])ardoned if I don't answer that? If you insist 
on my answerino; it, I will answer it. 

Mr. Halley. I would like to insist on your answering it. 

Mr. Gray. JSIcDevitt had the reputation of being a hard judge. 
That is one thing, the one that probably doesn't interest you. He was 
in the forefront of almost everything, whether it was baseball, 
whether it was fights, whether it was horse shows, whether it was 
a comnumity project, whether it was the ward policemen. He was 
present and as in the forefront of practically everything. And he 
had the reputation of being very close to Richardson. 

Senator Kefauver. Did he have the reputation of being in the 
numbers racket ? 

Mr. Gray. McDevitt ? 

Senator I^fauver. Yes. 

Mr. Gray. No. 

Senator Kefauver. Or in anything wrong? 

Mr. Gray. Not that I have any personal knowledge of. Senator. 

Senator Kefauver. We were asking you about reputation. 

Mr. Gray. I know you were asking about reputation. Among some 
people he may have had a very bad reputation, but it has never been 
discussed in pu])]ic. 

Mr. Halley. Was he considered a man who would "fix" a case? 

Mr. Gray. He was a judge. I don't c|uite get your suggestion about 
fixing a case. 

Mr. Halley. Was he considered a man through whom a prosecu- 
tion could be eliminated? 

Mr. Gray. You mean in a case in which he was sitting ? 

Mr. Halley. In some other case. 

INIr. Gray. I don't know that it was ever suggested that he would 
undertake to interfere in any case that any other judge had, although 
in some civil cases in which I have been interested he has taken the 
op])ortunity to go to another judge and discuss the question. 

Mr. Halley. He had a lot of influence over the police force, 
didn't he? 

Mr. Gray. A very decided influence over the police force. 

Mr. Halley. And he used that influence to get the police force 
to refrain from arresting certain people? 

Mr. Gray. I can't say that. 

Mr. Halley. Did he have that reputation? 

Mr. Gray. No ; I won't say that he had that reputation. 

Mr. Halley. Did some people think he did it ? 

Mr. Gray. Some people may have thought so. If 3'ou would like, 
I will give you an illustration of the way Richardson and he cooper- 
ated in a case regarding this man Hoffman. 

Mr. Halley. I would appreciate that. 

Mr. Gray. Hoffman got off the train at Thirtieth Street vStation one 
day with his bag in his hand, and one of Richardson's men stepped 
up and arrested him. He didn't take him before a magistrate, which 
is the proper practice here. He took him before Judge McDevitt, and 



140 ORGAmZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Richardson appeared against him and testified that he was a vagrant, 
and he committed him to the house of correction for a year. 

The matter immediately came to my attention. I took a writ of 
habeas corpus for him, but instead of taking it to the judge who would 
ordinarily hear a writ of habeas corpus on his list, I thought it was 
proper to take it to Judge McDevitt. I went in to see him and asked 
him to allow the writ, and told him I came to him because he was the 
one who committed him, and I thought it only fair, under the circum- 
stances, to present it to him. He allowed the writ. I had the hearing. 
I showed him the law with respect to vagrancy, and told him he knew 
as well as I did that he had no right to commit that man, and asked 
him to discharge him. He did discharge him. 

He was up against the proposition that he really had to, then. Hoff- 
man was not represented when he was first taken before him. 

Then he said to Hoffman, "I want you to understand that you are 
to get out of the city of Philadelphia and stay out." 

I said to him very promptly, "He will not get out. He will not stay 
out. He works here. He lives here. He is going to stay here. If 
Your Honor thinks you can do anything about it, you do it." J 
walked out with him. 

Mr. Halley. Of course, McDevitt could have been assisting Rich- 
ardson without knowledge of the things about which your client is 
complaining. McDevitt could have felt he was just doing his duty, 

Mr. Gray. He might have. It is a matter of argument. 

Mr. Halley. From the tone of your voice, you don't believe so? 

Mr. Gray, I don't think so, no. He was a good lawyer, and he v*'as 
a good judge from the point of knowledge of the law, and he knew 
absolutely he had no right to do that. 

I can give you another instance which has nothing to do with Phila- 
delphia. There was a man in the numbers game up in Reading, Pa. 
He came into Philadelphia with his wife, drove in, left his wife off at 
Wanamaker's, went and parked his car, and was immediately arrested 
by Richardson's men. I do not know why Richardson's men arrested 
him at that time. He was taken before McDevitt. He didn't even 
live in this city. He didn't live in this county. The city and county 
are coexistent, as you know. He committed him as a vagrant to the 
house of correction for a year, and I did the same thing with him. I 
got him out. 

I don't even remember that man's name. My file would show it, 
however. 

Mr. Klein. Would it be Minker ? 

Mr. Gray. Meeker ? 

Mr. Klein. Minker. 

Mr. Gray. No ; it was not that name. 

Senator Kefauver. While you are testifying, Mr. Gray, may I 
ask you to tell us something, or you can get the information for us 

Mr. Gray. I am sorry to have been compelled to go this far. I 
have no desire to do anything but help the committee, and I thought 
the first thing I testified to was pertinent. 

Senator Kefauver, We did not get exactly clear just when it was 
that Mr, Stromberg came here from Russia, and who he came Avith. 
I think he said his parents or his father, and when it was he was 
naturalized. He told us, but I do not think we got the time and 
the place. 



ORGAXIZED CRIME m INTERSTATE COMMERCE 141 

Mr. Gray. It would be in your records, and it probably will be in 
the minutes of the notes taken yesterday. If you will examine it 

Senator KEFAU^'ER. I do not think the record is quite clear about 
what year it was when he came here. 

Mr. Gray. I think it is quite clear, if yoii will allow me. 

If you will give me a minute to look at my records, I will tell you 
Vhat the notes show. Wasn't it quite clear, INlr. Halley ? 

Mr. Halley. Do you have it in your notes? 

Mr. Gray. I think I have. 

Mr. Halley. I think he said he was naturalized first b}^ virtue of 
his fathers naturalization, and then lie took out his own papers. 

i\Ir. Gray. He came into New York when he was 4 years old, 
aoout 190G. 

Senator Kefauver. Where did he come from in Russia? 

Mr. Gray. I don't think the place he came from in Kussia was asked. 

Then he said lie came to Philadelphia in lOoO or 1931, and he said 
he was a citizen. My notes do not show the time of his naturalization. 

Senator Kefauver. Will you ask him about that and supply it ? 

JNIr. Gray. I will be delighted to ask him ; and if you desire him 
to comiC here and testify, I will be glad to inquire of him as to when. 
I think he gave his age. 

Senator Kefauver. Where he came from in Russia, and what par- 
ticular naturalization matters he wen.t rhrough, and what court it 
was in. 

Mr. Gray. If you will allow me to make a note of that. Where in 
Russia he was born, and where and when he was naturalized. Any- 
thing else ? I will be very glad to do that. Senator. 

Senator Kefauver. One other question. Do you represent this 
Captain Elwell who came in yesterday ? 

Mr. Gray. I do not represent anybody in this situation except Mr. 
Stromberg and Mr. Weisberg. 

Senator Kefauver. Your associate, I believe, said they were his 
clients and not your clients. 

jNIr. Gray. I noticed Mr. Stein here yesterday. Was that some of 
the police he was representing ? 

Senator Kefauver. Yes. 

Mr. Gray. I haven't seen him since. I haven't had a chance to 
ask him why he was down here. 

Senator Kefauver. Anyway, they are his clients, not your cUents? 

ISIr. Gray. They are his clients if he came here representing them. 
Our office 

Senator Kefauver. Is it a partnership ? 

^Ir. Gray. I was just going to explain to you. Our office consists 
of a partnership of myself, ]\Ir. Anderson, Mr. Rome, and Mr. Schaffer. 
Mr. Stein is employed in our office, but as with all men that I have 
employed — and for 50 years I never had a partner. We formed a 
partnership in the summer of 1047. Mr. Stein had been employed 
by me before. He was employed by the partnership, and has been 
em])loyed by tliem ever since. Every man that I ever employed and 
every man that has worked for the firm, I have always said to them 
that they have no future in working for somebody else; that I will 
permit them to have anything in the way of their own practice that 

6895S — 51 — pt. 11 10 



142 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 

they could get, not interfering, of course, with any of our work, in 
the expectation of their buikling up their own practice. 

Senator Kefauver. The only point is, Is the entire fee his or will 
you divide it with him ? 

Mr. Gray. No. If he represents these people, the entire fee is his. 
We have no interest in it. 

Senator Kefauver. That is all I want. * 

Mr. Gray. He gets a salary. 

Senator O'Conor. I want to ask the witness, Mr. Weisberg, one or 
two questions. 

Are you familiar with the operations of the Dearest Miss Co.? 

Mr, Weisberg. No. 

Senator O'Conor. Do you know of the existence of it? 

Mr, Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. In what cities did it operate? 

Mr. Weisberg. The only city I ivnow is New York City. 

Senator O'Conor. You do not know of any other branches? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. You were asked about any record of arrests. 
Have you been arrested in any other cities other than in Philadelphia? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. What other cities? 

Mr. Weisberg. I was arrested in New York City, picked up in a 
restaurant. I think it was in 1946 or 1947. 

Senator O'Conor. On what charge ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I will explain it this way 

Senator O'Conor. I do not want to go into details unless you 
want to. 

Mr. Weisberg. Suspicion. 

Senator O'Conor. In other words, I do not want to press you on 
the detail unless you want to volunteer, and I do not want to shut 
you. off. What was the disposition of it ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Discharged. 

Senator O'Conor, Just on suspicion ? Any other cities ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. Baltimore. 

Senator O'Conor. What in Baltimore? 

Mr. Weisberg. I was charged with, I think, suspicion of bombing. 
They put a charge against me in 1941, 1 believe, or 1940. 

Senator O'Conor. Were you alone or with others ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Arrested ? 

Senator O'Conor. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. I was arrested alone. 

Senator O'Conor. Were there others jointly accused? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. Julius Fink. 

Senator O'Conor. Was he arrested at or about the same time as you ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Senator, he was called in. Whether he was arrested 
or not, I don't know. Wlien I came in, they had him. They brought 
him in. 

Senator O'Conor. The bombing of what? 

Mr. Weisberg. They claimed a saloon. 

Senator O'Conor. Located where, do you remember? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't remember. It was more — I will put it this 
way. I had an automobile, and Fink was riding around in it. They 
found my automobile there, and, of course, they arrested me. 



ORGAXIZED CRIME IN INTERSITATE COMMERCE 143 

Senator O'Conor. At tlie place of the bombing? 

Mr. WeisberCx. The automobile? No. Fink had my automobile. 
The night it happened, I was there during the daytime. 

Senator O'Conor. What was the disposition of that case ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Discharged in front of a magistrate. 

Senator O'Conor. All right. 

Have you any other assets or own any property ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. You have mentioned about the Cadillac car. 

Mr. Weisberg. Nothing else, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. That is all. 

Mr. Gray. Mr. Stenogra2:)her, may I be furnished with a copy of 
this, the same as I have asked you with respect to Stromberg? 

Senator Kefauver. May I ask you one other question? You have 
been asked whether you know Mayor Samuel's son? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't believe they asked me that. 

Senator Kefauver. Do you? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, I don't. I never saw him. 

Senator Kefauver. You never saw him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Personally, never. 

Senator Kefauver. Did you ever have any business negotiations or 
transactions with him? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. What would you consider your gross worth 
today ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I refuse to answer that on the grounds it may in- 
criminate me of a Federal offense. 

Senator KEFAU^'ER. That is, how much you are worth, approxi- 
mately. Do you refuse to answer? 

Mr. Weisberg. I refuse to answer on the grounds it may incriminate 
me of a Federal offense. 

Senator O'Conor. That is all. That will conclude your testimony. 

Mr. Gray. Both Mr. Stromberg and Mr. Weisberg are to consider 
they are under subpena. If counsel will give me notice of the time 
they want them, they don't need to do anything further. I will pro- 
duce them. 

Senator Kefauver. Thank you, Judge. 

Senator O'Conor. Will you be sworn ? 

In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear that the evidence 
you will give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. NissLEY. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH NISSLEY, SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF 
PARDONS, COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA, HARRISBURG, 
PA. 

Senator O'Conor. Will you be kind enough to state your full name 
and address and official connection? 

Mr. NissLEY. Joseph Nissley, secretary, board of pardons. Com- 
monwealth of Pennsylvania. My office address is 212 North Third 
Street, Harrisburg, Pa. 

Mr. Halley. Did you bring with you certain records pursuant to 
subpena of this committee ? 



144 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. NissLEY. Not pursuant to tlie siibpena, but at the request of 
the attorney general of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, who 
asked me to conic uid bring the records and cooperate with the com- 
mittee in any respect. 

Mr. Halley. 1 believe you have previously had a conversation with 
assistant counsel for the committee, who said that a subpena was 
ready, but you preferred to bring the records voluntarily, is that 
correct ? 

Mv. NissLEY. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. And you have so done ? 

Mr. NissLEY. I have so done. 

Mr. Halley. What records have you jjrocluced? Will you turn 
them over to the committee at this time ? 

Mr. NissLEY. I have brought with me the records pertaining to the 
case of Felix Bacchicchio and Frank Palermo. 

Mr. Halley. Will you now turn them over to the committee for 
inspection? 

Mr. NissLEY. I will turn them over to the committee for inspection, 
but with the understanding that they will be used here, and that I 
may have them back when I leave. If you wish any information, we 
will be glad to submit photostatic copies of the information that you 
tell me you desire. 

Mr. Halley. You mean you have no objection to the file being 
photostated, if we need it ? 

Mr. NissLEY. We will give you anything you want in photostatic 
form after you have determined what you wish. 

Mr. Halley. You simply feel you must keep your original records 
in your file ? 

Ml'. NissLEY. That is correct. 

Senator O'Conor. In other words, anything that is there is avail- 
able to the committee, and if necessary will be photostated, even by 
3'ou, in order to supply it ? 

Mr. NissLEY. We will photostat it and send it to you. 

Mr. Halley. May we see the records ? 

Mr. NissLEY. Yes. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Halley. Will you state w^hat you know concerning the file re- 
lating to the pardon of Frank Palermo? 

Mr. NissLEY. Yes ; but I will have to have the file to look at. 

Mr. Halley. May I ask you first, are you personally familiar with 
that case at all ? 

Mr. NissLEY. I was secretary to the board when both cases were 
heard. 

Mr. Halley. Would you both briefly describe the file and also, using 
the file to refresh your recollection, tell the committee about the case? 

Mr. Nissley. The case of Frank Palermo is our No. 9170, and was 
heard at the December 1947 session of the Pennsylvania State Board 
of Pardons. Mr. Palermo was represented by Robert C. Duffy, Esq., 
of 1224 Lincoln Liberty Building, Philadelphia 7, Pa. 

At the time, Mr. Duffy was heard by the full board, then consist^ 
ing of the attorney general ; Daniel B. Striker as chairman, who is a 
lieutenant governor; Charles M. Morrison, then secretary of the 
Commonwealth, since deceased; and William S. Livingood, Jr., the 
secretary of internal affairs. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 145 

Mr. Duffy briefly stated the applicant's case, stating that he had 
been arrested and convicted on two bills of indictment, one for ag- 
gravated assault and battery and one for lottery, the aggravated as- 
sault and battery, bill No. 748 in the May term, 1928 ; and the lottery, 
bill No. 1001, January term, 1934. 

Mr. Duffy further stated to the board that he was familiar with 
Frank Palermo and that he had an outstanding record in l*hiladelphia 
and was interested in boys' work; that he was instrumental in starting 
a boys' club in Philadelphia known as the Crusaders; that he had at 
his own expense done very charitable work during the war; that he had 
provided boxing entertainments for members of the Armed Forces in 
Valley Forge General Hospital, Inglewood General Hospital in At- 
lantic City, Tilton General Hospital in Fort Dix, Marine Corps League 
detachments; and that these expenses had cost him a minimum of 
$10,000 of his own money, for which he had secured no reimbursement; 
also that he was the prize-fight manager of Ike Williams, a nationally 
known fighter; and that he was married and had five children, ages 
17, 16, 15, 12, and 11, and desired this pardon in order that his record 
might be cleared. 

At the same time, the board received letters from the Honorable 
Harry S. McDevitt, since deceased, in which Judge McDevitt stated 
that he had personally made an investigation of this man's character 
and found him to be of the highest character, but he stated that — 

like men who are engaged in such businesses, he has many enemies, but has 
never been in any trouble to my Itnowledge, and I investigated him thoroughly, 
since 1934. 

He further stated in his letter that he has been particularly good to 
all juvenile activities in Southwest Philadelphia and then went on to 
state about his connection with fight promoters, and in one paragraph 
of the letter he stated : 

Those who do not like him try to connect him with racketeers like other fight 
promoters, but I have been unable to find any connection between them. 

I think most of the committee is familiar with Judge DcDevitt's 
record in Philadelphia. 

They submitted, as part of the record, letters from the Hospital 
Entertainment Canteen, Inc., thanking him for the services he had 
rendered. It w-as signed by Mark Abrahams, vice president, 1600 
Walnut Street. A letter from the Evening Bulletin, George T. Eger, 
promotion dire<,'tor, thanking him for a Fourtli of July celebration 
and the loaning of certain boxing aquipment. Letters from the Vet- 
erans' Administration, Coatesville, thanking him for a boxing shovs^ 
wdiich he put on for the benefit of the patients there. A letter from 
the Valley Forge General Hospital thanking him for the boxing show 
which he put on there. A letter from Judge McDevitt stating his 
faith in liim and thanking him for his kindness to the marines in 
Roxboro. A letter from Valley Forge for another entertainment that 
he had put on, another entertainment on December 11. A letter from 
Tilton General Hospital, Fort Dix, N. J., thanking him for a show he 
put on. A letter from the Dutch Hellway Detachment of the Marine 
Corps League thanking him for a show he put on. Another letter from 
the Tilton General Hospital — in fact, two letters— for two other 
shows he put on and the entertainment he provided the patients in 
those hospitals. 



146 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The assistant district attorney in Philadelphia, James W. Tracy, 
attended the sessions of the board of pardons in behalf of the district 
attorney's office and merely stated his record and stated that they had 
no objection to the granting of the pardon as prayed for. 

The board of pardons thereafter, in executive session, finding that 
this defendant had not been in any further trouble from 1935 to the 
time of this hearing, which was in December of 1947, and for the good 
work he had done for the connnunity in genera] and for the state- 
ments made by his counsel, unanimously recommended that the pardon 
be granted, a copy of which pardon charter is herewith enclosed. 

Senator Kefaitv'Er. What is the date of the pardon ? 

Mr. NissLEY. The date of the pardon is given under the hand of the 
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania this 14th day of January 1948. 

Senator O'Conor. Mr. Secretary, there is one matter, while you are 
here, that might be clarified. I understood you to state that the action 
was taken in view of the fact that there had been no evidence of viola- 
tion of law from 1985 until the date 

Mr. Njssley. Until the date of this charter. 

Senator O'Conor. I do note from the record before me that as of 
March 28, 1937, he was accused of keeping and maintaining a dis- 
orderly club in violation of the Liquor Control Act. 

Mr. NissLEY. We had no such record before us — 1937 — I beg your 
pardon. Yes. But that was discharged. 

Senator O'Coxor. I understand it was discharged. 

Mr. NissLEY. I failed to look at this criminal record from the de- 
partment of police. 

Senator O'Coxur. I wanted to clear it up while you were here and 
available. 

Mr. NissLEY. Yes. 

Mr. Kleix. What is the date of the hearing ? 

Mr. Nissley. I don't know if I have the exact date. It was probably 
the third Tuesday in December 1947, probably around the 12th or 
15th or 16th. 

Mr. Kleix. Was it a public hearing ? 

Mr. Nissley. Yes, sir. All hearings in Pennsylvania regarding 
pardons and commutations of sentences are public hearings, as re- 
quired by the Constitution of Pennsylvania. 

Mr. Kleix'. Did this application come up on the regular list? 

Mr. Nissley. It certainly did, sir. We never have any other appli- 
cations except on the regular list. 

Mr. Kleix. Was the grant of the pardon announced publicly as is 
generally done? 

Mr. Nissley. Yes; a letter is sent to the applicant's attorney, and 
it is publicly announced to the newspapers. 

Mr. Kleix. This pardon was so handled, too ? 

Mr. Nissley. It was so handled. We make no distinction in the 
handling of any pardons or commutations. 

Senator Kefauver. Who sentenced him ? What was the date of the 
sentence ? 

Mr. Nissley. The date of the sentence — which bill do you refer to, 
Senator? There are two bills. I see that the judge was the same on 
both offenses, according to the application. It was Judge Joseph L. 
Kun, of Common Pleas Court No. 1. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSITATE COMMERCE 147 

Senator Kefauver. Wliat is tlie date of the lottery sentence ? What 
was he charged witli tliat he was sentenced on '^ AssanU and battery 
by fist and brass knuckles? 

Mr. NissLEY. I merely have aggravated assault and battei-y, but in 
the prisoner's criminal record from the department of public safety, 
the bureau in Philadeli)hia, it says assault aiul battery and aggra- 
vated assault and battery by brass knuckles, September 2(5, 1928 ; guilty 
and t> months, and to pay costs of $200. 

Senator Kefauver. How nuich time did he actually serve? 

Mr. Nissley. I do not know, sir, but I presume it was (5 months. 

Senator Kefauver. He was sentenced to (> months, but had he actu- 
ally gotten in jail ( 

Mr. Nissley. The record would disclose if he had not gotten in jail 
or if the matter had been reduced. I have here that he was sentenced 
to 6 months and to pay costs. 

Mr. Klein. May I see that ? 

Mr. Nissley. Just a moment, please. 

Yes; he was found guilty on September 26, 1928. It is probably 
the same record that you have. 

Senator Kefauver. Did he appeal, or did he go to jail ? 

Mr. Nissley, Evidently he went to jail. There is no record of any 
appeal. 

Mr. Klein. Did you get this record from tlie Philadelphia Police 
Department? 

Mr. Nissley. No. We got it from the district attorney's office. 

Mr. Klein. You got this from the district attorney's office? 

Mr, Nissley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. This is the original of the record that was sent to you 
on request from the Philadelphia district attorney's office ? 

Mr. Nissley. That is correct. 

Senator Kefauver. What was the other charge? 

Mr. Nissley. Lottery, bill 1001, January term, 1934. In that he 

states : 

lu this matter your applicant borrowed an automobile to go to the central 
part of the city. On his way he was stopped by a policeman at Twenty-sixth 
and Wharton Streets, Philadelphia. The car was searched, and some numbers 
slips were found underneath the seat. Your applicant denied ownership of 
these slips but w^as found guilty by a jiUT and sentenced to 6 months In the 
county prison. This sentence was subsequently reduced to 60 days. 

He served the 60 days. 

Senator Kefauver. Here I notice : 

October 3, 1933, threat to do bodily harm and threats to kill, Magistrate Con- 
nor, no final disposition on record. 

Is that in his record ? 

Mr. Nissley, Yes. sir; we had that. That, it turned out, was a 
political fight between Palermo and Joseph McNamara in the thirty- 
sixth ward, from our records. 

Senator Kefauver. Is he on parole or does he have a full pardon ? 

Mr. Nissley. A full pardon, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. Did he lose any rights to hold office or to hold 
position by virtue of that conviction? 

Mr. Nissley, Not in Pennsylvania, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. Is that a misdemeanor or a felony he was con- 
victed of ? 



148 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. NissLEY. Aggravated assault and battery, I believe, is a mis- 
demeanor ; and. a lottery definitely is. 

Senator Kefauver. Are you sure about the aggravated assault and 
battery ? 

Mr. NissLET. I am not. Of course, in 1934 — it was under the act of 
1860. 

Senator Kefauver. I am talking about this thing he was convicted 
of. 

Mr. NissLET. That is correct, Senator. He was convicted under the 
act of 1860 of Pennsylvania, which was the criminal code then in force. 
We have since recodified the law in Pennsylvania, and I am not 
familiar. 

Senator Kefauver. He was convicted in 1947 ? 

Mr. Nissley. 1937. 

Senator Kefauver, I am talking about this cliarge he is supposed to 
have gone to jail on, 1937 or 1938. 

Mr. Nissley. 1937 — 1934, it was. Nineteen hundred and thirty- 
four. Senator, was the lottery charge, January 16, 1934, when he was 
sentenced to 6 months on lottery and then reduced to 60 chn^s. 

As to the assault and battery, by brass knuckles, that was in 1928. 

Senator Kefauver. I do not understand how you can get a pardon 
for something that happened 10 years before. This thing he had been 
convicted of was 10 years before, was it not ? 

Mr. Nissley. Yes, sir; it was more than 10 years before. 

Senator Kefauver. How did the thing happen to come up 10 years 
afterward ? 

Mr. Nissley. He desired to have his record clear, sir, so he pre- 
sented a petition to us, and on our forms, requesting that he be granted 
a pardon so his criminal record would be clear in Pennsylvania of 
these two convictions. 

Senator O'Conor. To the State board, of course ? 

Mr. Nissley. That is correct, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. All right. 

Mr. Klein. We have one more. 

Mr. Nissley. This is the case of Felix Bacchicchio. He was repre- 
sented by G. Harold Watkins, Esq., before the board. In this case 
he asked for a pardon for the crime of breaking and escaping prison. 
This time the application was filed at the March 1949 session of the 
board of pardons, our No. 9769. 

There seems to be a discrepancy in the records here. The front of it 
says March 1949, but on our other record it says April. In any event, 
I would say it was at the March session. This other record is prob- 
ably incorrect. 

Mr. Bacchicchio was a resident of the State of New Jersey at the time 
that he asked for a pardon, and his only conviction in Pennsylvania 
that was then open on the record was one for escaping penitentiary. 
He had been charged with the crime of robbery in a hold-up, but while 
an inmate of the Northumberland County Prison, located in Sunbury, 
Pa., he had walked out of prison and gone to Baltimore, where he was 
later apprehended, I believe. I don't exactly know where he was 
apprehended at the time, but he was apprehended. Yes; he states 
in his application that he went to Baltimore, Md., where he stayed 
until he was picked up by the authorities. 



ORGANIZED CRIIME m INTERSTATE COMMERCE 149 

He waived extradition, was brought back to Pennsylvania, was tried 
on the robbery and holcl-up, was acquited of that, but since he had 
escaped from prison while awaiting trial, was sentenced to a term of 
1 to 2 3'ears in Eastern State Penitentiary. 

He began the service of his sentence on October 19, 1932. His 
minimum expired on October 19, 1933. He was on parole until the 
expiration of his maximum sentence on October 19, 1934. He served 
his parole without any difficulty, and he was discharged from final 
parole. 

Subsequently, Mr. Bacchicchio settled in Camden County, N. J., and 
became the manager or financial adviser of the prize fighter known 
as Jersey Joe Walcott. 

At or about the time of the hearing of Bacchicchio before the board 
of pardons, favorable material in the form of a story had appeared in 
the Saturday Evening Post. His counsel produced a paper, the Eve- 
ning Courier, of Camden, N. J., under date of April 19, 1949, in which 
a column was devoted to "Bacchicchio Seeks Pardon to Become Fight 
Pilot," in which he pointed out many of the things that Bacchicchio 
had done and his many acts of charity and contributions to charity 
in things that he had done for the underprivileged in and about 
Camden, N. J. 

That is where he had his gymnasium, I believe. This article states — 

]\Ir. Klzin. If we want the article 

Mr. NissLEY. Yes, w^e will have it photostated for you. It tells 
about his many acts of charity for the Sister Kenny Fund and the 
Crippled Children's Fund and the Wounded Veterans at Tilton Gen- 
eral Hospital, and what he has done in his own community. 

There is a letter enclosed from the Sacred Heart Church in his own 
parish. Rev. John P. Fallon, pastor, in which he attests to his fine 
character in the recent 9 years that he has known him, and he can per- 
sonally vouch for him. 

We received a report from the New Jersey Board of Paroles, in 
which they testified to his good character, and that he was engaged as 
president of the Camden Athletic Corp., 220 Market Street, Camden, 
N. J. ; stated where he kept his bank account ; and that this informa- 
tion had been received from Municipal Judge John R. DiMona. 

Senator O'Conor. Pardon me. I think at this juncture we might 
conclude, except that the staff member could go over the record with 
you. 

Mr. NissLEY. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. We appreciate your cooperation very much, 
indeed. 

Mr. NissLEY. That is all right. 

(Thereupon, at 12 : 05 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m., of the 
same day.) 

AFTERXOOX SESSION 

(The committee reconvened at 2 p. m.) 

Senator 0"Conor (presiding). The committee will come to order. 

Mr. Halley. Will you note on the record that there is introduced 
in evidence as exhibit No. 3 a photostatic copy of a letter of July 19, 
1949, addressed to Mr. Daniel P. Sullivan, and signed by George F. 
Richardson, assistant superintendent of police, commanding detec- 



150 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

tive division, bureau of police, Philadelphia, and that is the exhibit 
to the testimony of Richardson. 

(Exhibit No. 3 is included in pt. 1 of the hearings of tlie committee, 
as exhibit No. 112, on p. 7-13.) 

Senator Kefauver. Let it be noted that the letter to the chairman 
from Mr. Richardson in response to a letter asking about conditions 
up here is also made a part of the record at this point and that it is in 
substance the same as the letter to Mr. Sullivan. 

(Off the record.) 

Senator O'Conor. What is your name ? 

Mr. Campbell. Louis Campbell, Jr. 

Mr. Spiegel. I am Mr. Spiegel, representing Mr. Campbell in the 
place of Mr. Gratz. 

Senator O'Conor. Will you kindly raise your hand. In the pres- 
ence of Almighty God do you swear that the testimony you will give 
in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Campbell. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS CAMPBELL, JE., SPEING CITY, PA., ACCOM- 
PANIED BY EOBEET JOSEPH SPIEGEL, ATTOENEY, PHILADEL- 
PHIA, PA. 

Senator O'Conor. Will you state your full name. 

Mr. Campbell. Louis Campbell, Jr. 

Senator O'Conor. And your address ? 

Mr. Campbell. Spring City, Pa. 

Senator O'Conor, And your business or occupation ? 

Mr, Campbell. At the present time, nothing. 

Senator O'Conor. Where were last employed ? 

Mr. Campbell. Strunk Steel Co. 

Mr. Spiegel. Robert Joseph Spiegel, 1421 Chestnut Street, Phila- 
delphia. 

Mr, Klein, Mr. Campbell, on the 26th of January 1949 you were a 
stockholder of the Strunk Steel Co. ? 

Mr. Campbell. Correct. 

Mr. Klein. How many shares of stock did you hold ? 

Mr. Campbell. Two thousand five hundred. 

Mr. Klein, What proportion was that of the total outstanding 
stock ? 

Mr.' Campbell. A trifle over $90,000. That was $25,000. 

Mr. Klein. You held 10 percent of the stock? 

Mr. Campbell. A little better than that. 

Senator Kefattver. No, wait a minute. $25,000 you had in it. 

Mr, Campbell, That is correct. 

Senator Kefai7\^er. $90,000. That would be one-fourth, approxi- 
mately. 

Mr. Klein. A little more than a fourth. 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Klein, Were you owed any money bv the company? 

Mr. Campbell. $14,000. 

Mr. Klein. Is it a fact that you wanted to collect that money ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 151 

Mr. Klein. On or about that time you liad some conversations with 
Mr. William PI. Strunk with respect to the sale of that stock? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, there was a difference of opinion in business 
management between INIr. Strunk and myself, and he asked me would 
I sell my stock. I told him yes. He wanted to know what I wanted 
for it and I told him exactly what I paid for it, par value. 

Mr. Klein. Wliat was that ? 

Mr. Campbell. $10 a share; in other words, $25,000. 

]Mr, Klein. Did JNIr. Strunk find a customer for you ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is correct. He introduced me to a man who 
bouo;ht the stock. 

Mr. Klein. Who was the man who bought the stock ? 

Mr. Campbell. I think his name is Louis P. Crusco. I am not posi- 
tive of the "P." 

Mr. Klein. At any rate, it was Louis Crusco ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Ku:iN. Do you know where he came from ? 

ISIr. Campbell. I never saw the man until the day he bought my 
stock. I think he is a Philadel])hian. 

Mr. KJLEiN. On what day did he buy the stock ? 

Mr. Ca:\ipbell. Either the 26th or the 2Tth of January. If you 
will let me look at some notes, I can tell you exactly. 

Mr. Klein. It was the 27th of January. 

Mr. Campbell. It was on a Thursday. The 27th I think is right. 

Mr. Klein. Where did the sale take place ? 

Mr. Campbell. In the office of the company. 

Mr. Klein. At Spring City, Pa. ? 

Senator KeExVuvepl. Let him get his notes out. 

Mr. Campbell. At Royersford, Pa. 

Senator Kefauver. The dates are the only thing I am interested in. 

Senator O'Conor. You are at liberty to refer to your notes if you 
desire. 

Mr. Campbell. Thank you. I have some notes here that will give 
me the dates of these things in sequence correctly. 

Senator O'Conor. Can you give the date? 

Mr. CampbeixT.. I will find it in just a second. The 27th. 

Mr. Klein. How did Crusco pay for his stock ? 

Mr. CA3HPBELL. Mr. Crusco and Miss Arnold, an attorney, were 
present. I had never seen either of them in my life. I was intro- 
duced to them, sitting at a table just about the size of that one. Mr. 
Strunk said to me, "I understand you are willing to sell your stock." 

I said, "Yes; I am." 

"How much do you want for it ?" 

I said, "Par value." 

Mr. Strunk said, "Well, here is a man who will buy it." 

With that Mr. Crusco got up, and had a bag lying back against 
the wall. It was a bag iust about the size of that thing. It had a 
zipper across the top. He opened it up and dumped the whole pile 
of money on the table. 

Senator O'Conor. All currency ? 

Mr. Campbell. All currency. So he picks up five bundles and takes 
them over and laid them down in front of me. They were marked 
$.^.000 apiece. So with that I said to Mr. Strunk, "There are two more 
shares outstanding that belong to me." A man by the name of Gilbert 



152 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

had bought them, and he left the employ of the company and went to 
Florida, The day that he left he came in and wanted to know if the 
company would buy them back. I told him "No"; the company was 
not in a position to. Knowing the man, I said, "I will take them." 
I handed him a $20 bill. So Bill verified that fact. I am referring to 
Mr. Strunk. 

He said to Mr. Crusco. "You owe him $20 more." 

He reached in his pocket and took out his wallet and handed me a 
$20 bill. That is about all there was to the transaction. 

Mr. Kleix. Did Crusco have any more money with him that you 
saw ? 

Mr. Campbell. There was $9,000 still on the table, with which he 
bought capital stock. 

Senator O'Coxor. In addition to the $25,000? 

Mr. Campbell. In addition to the S25,000; yes, sir. 

Senator O'Coxor. Was any explanation given by him as to why he 
was handling that large sum in currency rather than by check? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Senator O'Coxor. You didn't comment? 

Mr. Caimpbell. I didn't question him, but I ciuestioned myself, to be 
honest with you. 

Senator O'Coxor. You were getting your money for your stock. 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. Tliis'$14,000 business, I told Strunk 
when he asked me if I would sell ni}' stock, I told him "Yes," with the 
understanding that my loan to the company would be liquidated at the 
same time. So I immediately questioned him about the $14,000. 
They hesitated and he hem-hawed around for a while and they came 
up with the explanation there was a lot of inventory around that they 
wanted to liquidate. As soon as it was liquidated, I was to be paid 
off. As a result, I took a oO-day note for the $14,000, with the under- 
standing that it would not be renewed. 

Well, I took the note to my bank for collection when the 26th of 
February rolled around it was protested and still stands that way. 

Mr. Kleix. Did Crusco indicate to you that he was acting for him- 
self? 

Mr. Campbell. He indicated nothing in that respect at all. It was 
my understanding that he was ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Kleix. You took that money to the bank, did you not? 

Mr. Campbell. That same afternoon I called my bank. I was 
afraid of it, to be honest with you. 

Mr. Kleix. Why were you afraid of it? 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't like it. I don't know wh}^ a man would 
carry $34,000 around with him. 

Mr. Kleix. What denominations were the notes ? 

Mr. Campbell. They ran anywhere from $5 bills — there were a few 
$500, hundreds, fifties, twenties, and fives. 

Mr. Klein. Did the bundles bear wrappers? 

Mr. Campbell. Some of them were marked Federal Reserve of 
Philadelphia and some were Corn Exchange of Philadelphia. 

Mr. Kelin. How many were marked Corn Exchange? 

Mr. Campbell. That I can't tell you definitely . I don't know. 

Mr. Kleix. That terminated your connection with the company, 
did it not? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 153 

Mr. Campbell. At that time, yes. Later on, in March they had a 
continued stockholders' meeting and some of the stockholders insisted 
that I go back with them to the meeting, at which time Mr. Strunk 
was dismissed as president of the company. Then a little later on I 
came down here to Philadelphia to Miss Arnold's office to meet Mr. 
Crusco and the board of directors about the note. Of course, nothing 
happened at that particular meeting and I agreed to wait until the 
1st day of April for payment of that note. Then I was asked to go 
back on the board of directors, which they elected me back to the 
board. As a matter of fact, they made me president of the company 
and chairman of the board. Then at meetings Mr. Crusco agreed that 
he would put up to and including $20,000 to match any money that any 
of the rest of the stockholders might put up to put the company on its 
feet. After a lot of promises and fussing around, nothing ever hap- 
pened. That is the gist of the story. 

Mr. Klein. On the 28th of March, when you went to the meeting in 
Miss Arnold's office, there were present not only the members of the 
board of directors but there was also Richard Samuel, Jr. ; was there 
not?' 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. Richard Samuel, Jr., Miss Arnold. That is 
the second time I saw Mr. Crusco at that meeting. 

Mr. Klein. Was Crusco also present? 

Mr. Campbell. I think he was ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Wlio is Mr. Richard Samuel, Jr. ? 

Mr. Campbell. He apparently was the mouthpiece for Mr. Crusco. 

Senator O'Conor. Why do you say that? 

Mr. Campbell. He came there with a proxy to vote for Mr. Crusco. 

Mr. Klein. But Mr. Crusco was there, too. 

Mr. Campbell. At that time, yes ; but in subsequent meetings after 
that he attended the meetings quite often. 

Mr. Klein. Who, Richard Samuel, Jr.? 

Mr. Campbell. Richard Samuel, Jr., yes. 

Mr. Klein. At the meeting on the 28th of March Crusco was there 
and Richard Samuel, Jr., was also there? 

Mr. Campbell. I won't be positive about the date of the 28th of 
March, but I will say the first meeting that was held after the con- 
tinued stockholders' meeting, which would be about the 28th. 

Mr. Klein. It was held in the evening ; wasn't it ? 

Mr. Campbell. It was held at 6 o'clock in the evening, as I recall it. 

Mr. Klein. By the way, will you describe Richard Samuel,' Jr.? 
How old is he? 

Mr. Campbell. To the best of my knowledge, he would be about 18 
or 20 years of age ; short, heavy set. 

Mr. Klein. A young fellow ? 

Mr. Campbell. Oh, yes. I don't think he is of age. 

Senator O'Conor. Where have you last seen him? 

Mr. Campbell. The last time I saw that boy was, I would say, in 
the month of May. 

Senator O'Conor. You haven't seen him around today? 

Mr. Campbell. No. In the month of May in the company's offices 
at Royersford. 

Senator O'Conor. He is the son of Richard Samuel, Sr.? 

Mr. Campbell. I understand so. 



154 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Kefauver. We all know ^Y]lo he is. 

Mr. Klein. Did you ever see Mr. Richard Samuel, Sr. ? 

Mr. Campbell. A^o, sir. He was never at any meeting that I was 
at. However, I understand — wasn't he at the stockholders' meeting 
in February? 

Mr. Klein. You tell us. 

Mr. Campbell. I don't know. I wasn't there. I was no longer 
a stockholder. But I think I was told that he was there. 

Senator O'Conor. Did you see him around any of the courts in 
connection with subsequent proceedings^ 

Mr. Campbell. Did I see him in the courts? 

Senator O'Conor. Yes. 

Mr. Campbell. Mr. Samuels was pointed out to me when this case 
was supposed to come up last March. 

Senator O'Conor. So you did see him ? 

Mr. Campbell. I saw him, and I think he is out here today. 

Senator O'Conor. Richard Samuel, Sr. ? 

Mr. Campbell. Senior, not junior. 

Mr. Klein. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Kefauver. Is that all you know about it ? When did you 
find out who Crusco was? 

Mr. Campbell. The day lie bought my stock, when I was introduced 
to him. I never saw the man in my life before. 

Senator Kefauver. Did you find anything out about him after- 
w^ard ? 

Mr. Campbell. A lot of things I couldn't prove, rumors of course, 
things that you hear on the street. That is all I know about him. 

Mr. Klein. What have you heard ? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, it is my impression that he is a gambler. 

Mr. Klein. A numbers writer ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is my impression ; yes, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. How^ was the $14,000 paid ? Was it ever paid ? 

Mr. Campbell. No. That is still an open book. 

Senator Kefauver. Did you see the proxy that Crusco gave young 
Samuels ? 

Mr. Campbell. I did; and I think it is among the records of the 
company. Yes. 

Senator Kefauver. You saw it ? 

Mr. Campbell, I did ; yes, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. He was there several times representing Crusco ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; at the continued stockholders' meeting. 

Senator Kefauver, How^ many times would you say ? 

Mr. Campbell. Oh, gee, roughly four or five times. ' 

Senator KEFAU\nER. What is the business of this Strunk Corp. ? 

Mr. Campbell. Steel weldings. 

Senator Kefauver. How big a business, how much sales, in hundreds 
of thousands of dollars? 

Mr. Campbell. Their sales in 1948 were somewhere around between 
two and three hundred thousand dollars. I can't tell you the e:5act 
figure. I don't recall. 

Senator Kefauver. How many employees ? ' 

Mr. Campbell. Their height was about 95. 

Senator Kefauver. All rioht. 



ORGANIZED CRIME m INTERSTATE COMMERCE 155 

Mr. Kleix. One more question. Did yon ever have any conversa- 
tion or did yon ever hear of Kichard Samuel, Sr., discussing any of the 
business affairs of this company? 

Mr. Campbell. I have never met Mr. Sanniel, Sr. Never talked to 
the gentleman in my life. 

Mr. Klein. All right. 

Senator O'Conor. Thank you, Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Campbell. Yon are quite welcome, gentlemen. 

Senator O'Conor. Will you raise your right hand. In the presence 
of Almighty God, do you swear that the evidence you will give in this 
matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God ? 

Mr. Strunk. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM M. STRUNK, EOYERSFORD, PA., ACCOM- 
PANIED BY DAVID BERCtEE, ATTORNEY, PHILADELPHIA, PA. 

Senator O'Conor. Your full name, please. 

Mr. Strunk. William M. Strunk. 

Senator O'Conor. Your address, please. 

Mr. Strunk. 800 Church Street, Royersforcl, Pa. 

Senator O'Conor. Your business or occupation? 

Mr. Strunk. Superintendent of fabricated steel, Harris Structural 
Steel, Plainfield, N. J. 

Senator O'Conor. Counsel, will yon identify yourself? 

Mr. Berger. My name is David Berger. My office is at 1516 Girard 
Trust Building, Philadelphia. I represent Mr. Strunk. I may say 
he is here to cooperate fully with the committee. 

Senator Kefauver. He looks like the type of man who would coop- 
erate. I hope you don't disappoint us, Mr. Strunk. 

jMr. Klein. Mr. Strunk, in January 1949 you were president of the 
Strunk Steel Co.? 

Mr. Strunk. That is true. 

Mr. Klein. You were one of the principal past stockholders ? 

Mr. Strunk. That is true. 

Mr. Klein. How much stock did you have? 

Mr. Strunk. Between Mrs. Strunk and myself, $16,000. I had 
$15,000 and Mrs. Strunk had $1,000. 

Mr. Klein. Out of the total capitalization of $90,000? 

Mr. Strunk. That is true. 

Mr. Klein. So you had 20 percent? 

Mr. Strunk. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. Mr, Campbell has just testified that on the 27th day of 
January 1949 he sold his stock to Mr. Louis Crusco and that you ar- 
ranged that transaction. Will you tell the committee about it? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes, sir. Previous to this negotiation, Mr. Campbell 
and I were not working together; rather, we didn't agree on principles 
of the company, and things were not going right. It came to such a 
state that something had to be done. Either he had to get out or I had 
to get out. I had asked him whether he would sell his stock if I would 
find a buyer, and he said he would. So I started to interest different 
])arties. I had negotiations with a firm in New York 



156 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator O'Conor. It may be unnecessary to go into all tlie phases 
of the unsuccessful connections you made, but just get clown to the 
point. 

Mr. Strunk. I made negotiations with Louis Crusco through Reu- 
ben Young, with the Delaware Equipment Co. He suggested Mr. 
Crusco. Do you want any more details ? 

Mr. Klein. Just the deal. 

Mr. Berger. Exactly how the various individuals came into this 
picture, including Samuel. 

Senator Kefauver. That is right. What the inducements were. 
Reuben Young was with what company ? 

Mr. Strunk. Delaware Equipment Co. 

Senator Kefau\t:r. Were they a customer of yours ? 

Mr. Strunk. No. We were a customer of theirs. We bought ecjuip- 
ment from them. 

Senator O'Conor. He learned stock was for sale? 

Mr. Strunk. Through conversation with me. He suggested Louis 
Crusco, and in talking to Mr, Crusco he said, rather, to get back and 
repeat that : Reuben Young told me that Crusco wanted to get into 
something legitimate; that he wanted to get out of the numbers racket. 

Senator Kefauver. Who told you that 'i 

Mr. Strunk. Reuben Young. 

Then I spoke to Crusco. Rather, he brought Crusco to the office 
of the Delaware Equipment Co. I spoke to Crusco, and he said that 
he wanted to have Richard Samuel, Sr., look the proposition over. 
So they made arrangements for me to come to Philadelphia to look 
over an automatic spraying machine that somebody was demonstrat- 
ing, to get my opinion of wdiether it would work, and at the same 
time he told me that he wanted me to talk to Richard Samuel, Sr., 
about the sale of the stock. So, we went to the office of Reuben Young, 
at the Delaware Equipment Co., and I gave him the financial state- 
ment which was prepared by Louis Campbell. 

Senator O'Conor. Who did you you meet there? 

Mr. Strunk. Richard Samuel, Sr., Reuben Young, Louis Crusco. 

Senator O'Conor. Is that the first time you had met Louis Crusco? 

Mr. Strunk. No, sir ; I met him previous to that. 

There were no comments made after the meeting was over, but 
several days later Reuben Young called me on the phone and said that 
the deal is on ; that Crusco was going to buy it, and Samuel had okayed 
it. So, on the Tuesday previous to the sale of the stock, or rather the 
[purchase of this stock, which would be the Tuesday previous to Janu- 
iiry 27, 1 was requested by Reuben Young to come to Philadelphia and 
iiake sure that all the details were right, and when I got there we 
went to lunch and Louis Crusco told me that he and a group of others 
were getting the money together. He did not intimate who the others 
ivere, but he did say that he was getting the money together and 
ivould be up on Thursday to make the settlement. 

Mr. Berger. May I ask a question ? 

Mr. Klein. No. 

Senator Kefauver. Let him ask one. 

Mr. Berger. Was there any condition put on the transaction with 
'espect to the sale of the stock, having in mind the Samuels? 
_ Mr. Strunk. That is right. I had forgotten that. On this par- 
icular Tuesday at the lunch one of the conditions of the transfer of 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSfTATE COMMERCE 157 

the stock was that Richard Sanincl's son woiikl be given a job with 
the Strunk Steel Co. and that, as Richard Sanniel was through with 
his income-tax work on March 15, he was going to work in the office 
of the DeLaware Equipment Co. and secure work for the company on 
a commission basis. 

Senator O'Conor. Was that fact communicated to Mr. Campbell? 

Mr. Strunk. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. So that was entirely between you and the pro- 
spective purchasers? 

Mr, Strunk. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. I didn't understand that. Who was going to 
work in the office of the Delaware Equipment Co. ? 

Mr. Strunk. Richard Samuel, Sr. I think he was the collector 
of internal revenue. 

Mr. Berger. You mean, tax assessor, personal-property tax assess- 
ment. 

Mr. Strunk. I don't know what his duties were. I don't know the 
details of it, but by March 15 he would be free. 

Mr. Berger. Was there any condition put on the transaction with 
respect to Richard Samuel's son? I believe his name is Richard 
Samuel, Jr. That is it? 

Mr. Strunk. That is true. The conditions were that he was to be 
given a job with the Strunk Steel Co., which actually transpired. 

Senator Kefauver. Were those conditions in writing? 

Mr. Strunk. No, sir. They were verbal. 

Senator Kefauver. I didn't understand about Sanniel, Sr. He is 
the mayor ; isn't he ? He is the son of the mayor ? 

Mr. Strunk. That is right. 

Senator O'Conor. And the other is the son of the mayor. 

Mr. Strunk. That is right. 

Senator Kefauver. Samuel, Sr., was going to work with the Dela- 
ware Equipment Co.? 

Mr. Strunk. He was going to set up sales offices and get municipal 
woi-k for us to do. 

Mr. Halley. How did that tie into the Strunk Steel Corp.? I 
don't get the relationship between the Delaware Equipment and 
Strunk Steel. 

Mr. Strunk. There is no tie-up. Delaware Equipment is a handler 
of used and new machinery. We had purchased machinery from 
them, but we had opened an office immediately upon Crusco's acquir- 
ing stock, there was an office opened up in the Delaware Equipment 
Co. in the name of Strunk Steel, Philadelphia office. 

Mr. Halley. How was Strunk Steel to benefit from Richard Samuel 
being in the Delaware ? 

Mr. Strunk. Securing of work. 

Mr. Halley. Who would get the work, Strunk Steel ? 

Mr. Strunk. That is right; Strunk Steel Co. 

Mr. Klein. In other words, the only connection was that you used 
the offices of the Delaware Steel Corp., Delaware Steel Co., as your 
headquarters in Philadelphia. 

Mr. Strunk. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. Strunk Steel headquarters in Philadelphia. 

Mr. Strunk. That is right. 

68958 — 51 — pt. 11 11 



158 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. In other words, Samuel was going to be getting this 
work for Strunk Steel Co, 

Mr. Strunk. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You made fabricated steel, is that right? 

Mr. Strunk. That is right, 

Mr. Halley. What type, heavy or light ? 

Mr. Strunk. Light, mostly of a welded nature, what we call steel 
weldments. 

Mr. Halley, What did you supply? 

Mr. Strunk. We were talking of making welded fire plugs and 
drainage covers, and in subway work there were certain types of work 
that we would make for subway work, light structural steel. 

Mr. Halley. Was Samuel to get a commission for any orders he 
got? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat arrangement was made? 

Mr. Strunk. Nothing except verbal. There were verbal arrange- 
ments that as soon as he could get in that office he was to get 5 percent 
commission on the jobs he had gotten, that he was instrumental in 
getting. 

Senator Kj^fauver. What else could you make ? Welded fire plugs ? 

Mr. Strunk. We also made escalators for the Otis Elevator Co. 
That is the welded trusses for the escalators. We made steel pileates 
for concrete pipe. A pileate is used in forming the bell on the spigot. 

Senator Keeauver. Do I understand that these sales were to be 
directly by the Strunk Steel Co. to the city, or were they to go through 
the Delaware Equipment Co. ? 

Mr. Strunk. No; it would go direct from the Strunk Steel Co. 
He would be instrumental and act as a salesman. 

Senator Kefauver. I thought you said he was going to set up busi- 
ness at the Delaware Equipment Co. 

Mr. Strunk. He would set up an office there. 

Senator Kefauver. Why would he be setting up an office there? 

Mr. Strunk. In the name of Strunk Steel Co. 

Senator Kefauver. You mean just sharing space? 

Mr. Strunk. That is right. 

Senator Kefauver. Where did the Delaware Equipmeiu Co. stand 
to gain anything? 

Mr. Strunk. Rental of their office space. 

Senator Kefauver. But you did sell the Delaware Steel Co. some 
equipment also ? 

Mr. Strunk. No; they sold us equipment. 

Senator Kefauver. They sold you equipment. So if you got more 
business, they got more business. 

Mr, Strunk, That is right. 

Senator Kefau\^er. What did they sell you ? 

Mr. Strunk. Machinery such as rolls, lathes, machine shop tools. 

Senator Kefau\'er. Was that part of the agreement, that you were 
going to buy all your things from them that you could bu}' from them ? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor, What was said by Richard Samuel or in his pres- 
ence as to how he could procure the business ? : , 

Mr. Strunk. How he conld procure the business? He said he 
was acquainted enough in politics that he thought lie could swing 
these deals. 



ORGAJSriZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 159 

Senator O'Conor. Through whom? 

Mr. Strunk. He didn't mention through whom. 

Senator O'Conor. Who did you understand it was to be through? 

Mr. Strunk. Crusco left me under the impression that Richard 
Samuel, Sr., was well acquainted in politics, and he said through his 
father and through the purchasing agent they would be able to get 
the Philadelphia City work. 

Mr. Klein. You mean the purchasing agent of the city of Phil- 
adelphia? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. You knew his father was the mayor of Philadelphia. 

Mr, Strunk. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Was that mentioned in the course of negotiations ? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kefattv^er. Did Samuel, Sr., say that too ? 

Mr. Strunk. He said that to me. 

Senator Kefauver. Samuel Senior and Crusco, too, said it? 

Mr. Strunk. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. In any event, you wouldn't need to have any pic- 
ture printed when the son of the mayor said he would get contracts 
from the city, is that right ? 

Mr. Strunk. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. Crusco then met you • 

Senator O'Conor. If you will permit one more question. Was 
anything said during the conversation as to whether the work 
would be procured by competitive bidding or otherwise? 

Mr. Strunk. That was never mentioned. 

Senator O'Conor. Was it your understanding that you w'ould 
get orders without submitting bids? 

Mr. Klein. Well, that particular phase was never gone into in 
detail, so I couldn't answer that truthfully. I assume 

Senator O'Conor. Why would you go to all the trouble that you 
have indicated you have gone to negotiate the sale for a consider- 
able block of the stock and go into these several successive steps if 
you were only to be given a chance to bid on work that you might 
have gotten anyway ? 

Mr. Strunk. I assumed from previous business that unless those 
connections were made, it was hard to get municipal work. 

Senator O'Conor. Didn't you expect if you could make this. con- 
nection you could get work without bidding on it ? 

Mr. Strunk. I expected that; yes. 

Senator Kefauver. Had you had any business before that time 
with the city ? 

Mr. Strunk. 'No, sir. 

Senator Kjefau\^r. You never had been able to get any? Had 
you tried to get some ? 

Mr. Strunk. Shortly after this negotiation was made, I 
resigned as president of that company. We, however, in the in- 
terim secured some business from the Philadelphia — is it Rapid 
Transit? 

Senator Kefauver. Before these conversations began you never 
got any business from the city ? 

Mr. Strunk. No, sir. 



160 ORGAJSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Kefauver. You tried to get some? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. But you always failed ? 

Mr. Strunk. That is right. 

Senator Kefauver. You figured if you could get some business it 
would be a good idea ? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. How about the prices? Were you going to 
lower your prices to get anything from the city or was anything 
said about keeping your prices at the usual level or higher than 
the usual level ? 

Mr, Strunk. That was not discussed. 

Senator Kefauver. You were just going to get the business at your 
price ? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes, that is right. 

Mr. Klein. The deal was then consummated, wasn't it ? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. And Mr. Crusco paid for the stock in cash ? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein, Did he indicate where he got that cash ? 

Mr. Strunk. He told me on Tuesday that he was going to get it, 
but I didn't know it was coming in cash until the day the settlement 
was made. 

Mr. I^EiN. Has he at any time indicated to you that it was any- 
body else's cash other than his own ? 

Mr. Strunk. He had told me verbally on Tuesday previous to the 
settlement that two or three other persons were in this deal with him, 
but he did not mention their names. 

Senator O 'Conor. You have already testified that the group was 
getting the money together. 

Mr. Strunk. That is right. 

Senator O'Conor. Wasn't there any indication as to who was in- 
cluded in the group ? 

Mr. Strunk. No. 

Senator O'Conor. Or who were the parties? 

Mr. Strunk. No. 

Senator Kefauver. You assumed it was Samuel, Sr. ? 

Mr. Strunk. I was assuming that. I assumed it was Rueben 
Young, Samuel, Sr. I was assuming it was Miss Arnold, too, the at- 
torney. 

Senator O'Conor. And Louis Crusco. 

Mr. Strunk. And Louis Crusco. 

Mr. Klein. From what facts or what circumstances did you make 
that assumption? 

Mr, Strunk. Different remarks that were made during the course 
of negotiations, Reuben Young had made remarks that he has gone 
into different deals with Crusco before and he was very enthused about 
Crusco going into this and getting started. He said I am just as much 
interested in getting Crusco into a legitimate business as he is. 

Mr. Halley. Did he say that when Crusco was present ? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did he say it when Samuel was present? 

Mr. Strunk. No. 



ORGAiN^IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 161 

Mr. Halley. When Samuel, Sr, was present? 

Mr. Strunk. No. 

Mr. Halley. What is Keuben Young's business ? 

Mr. Stkunk. As I understand it, he is in partnership trading: under 
the name of Delaware Equipment Co. in the sale of new and used 
machinery, machine tools, and so forth. 

Mr. Klein. In addition to the $25,000 for Campbell's stocks, Crusco 
also put up $9,000 for working capital for which he took other stock? 

Mr. Stkunk. He bought the balance of the unissued stock. 

Mr, Klein. Has he ever put any additional money besides that 
$34,000 in? 

Mr. Strunk, Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Klein. Were there any negotiations later under which he was 
to put in $19,000 additional ? 

Mr. Strunk. I believe — I can't testify to that exactly. I believe 
that was suggested after I had left the company. 

Mr. Klein. Did you in fact open an office in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KJLEiN. And was Richard Samuel, Jr., placed in charge of that 
office? 

Mr. Strunk. No, sir. He was a clerk in that office. 

Mr. Klein. He was the clerk ? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. He was employed in the office ? 

Mr. Strunk. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. How long was he employed ? 

Mr. Strunk. He was employed as long as I was with the company, 
which was to the end of March, toward the latter end of March of 
that same year. After that I don't know. I lost track of everything. 

Mr. Klein. Do you know whether the company in fact got any 
orders from the city of Philadelphia? 

Mr. Strunk. During my term there was one order from the transit 
company. 

Mr. Klein. Wlio got that order ? 

Mr. Strunk. I took the order, bid on it and got it without compe- 
tition. 

Senator O'Conor. How much, do you remember ? 

Mr. Strunk. Only about a thousand dollars. 

Mr. Klein. Did Richard Samuel or Richard Samuel, Jr., hav« any 
part in obtaining that order ? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. What part ? 

Mr. Strunk. He is the one that resurrected — rather, brought it to 
our attention and secured the drawings from the transit company 
and brought it to me for estimating. 

Senator Kefauver. Wliich one, senior or the very young one ? 

Mr. Strunk. Junior. 

Senator Kjefauver. Not the 19-year-old boy ? 

Mr. Strunk. The 19-year-old boy. 

Mr. Klein. Do you know whether or not 

Senator Kefauv^er. Have we got the time of that order ? 

Mr. Klein. We haven't yet. 

Senator O'Conor. Subsequent to the transfer of the stock ? 



162 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Strunk. Subsequent to the transfer of the stock ? 

Senator Kefauver. About what time was it ? 

Mr. Strunk. During March. 

Mr. Kleix. 1949? 

Mr. Strunk. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. That is about a month after the stock was purchased. 

Mr. Strunk. About a month and a half. I would say about a month 
and a half. 

Senator Ivefauver. What was the order for ? 

Mr. Strunk. It was some kind of brake shoe for trolleys made out 
of plates pressed in machines. 

Senator Kefauver. Brake shoe for trolleys. Is this the thousand- 
dollar order? 

Mr. Strunk. I can't tell. The order was completed after I left the 
company. 

Senator Kefauver. All right. 

Mr. Strunk. My estimate showed it nice and profitable. 

Mr. Klein. The contract was given at the estimated price, wasn't it ? 

Mr. Strunk. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. Do you know whether or not Bernard Samuel, who was 
the mayor of Philadelphia, and is the grandfather of Richard Samuel, 
Jr., is a member of the board of directors of the Philadelphia Trans- 
portation Co.? 

Mr. Strunk. I do not know that. 

Mr. Klein. That is all I have. 

Senator O'Conor. Let me ask this question, Mr. Strunk : On the day 
of January 27, when the purchase of the stock was consummated and 
the money paid, did it occasion any surprise or comment that $25,000 
was deposited on the table in currency ? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes. It occasioned surprise to me. It occasioned sur- 
prise to Mr. Campbell. 

Senator O'Conor. I guess as a very businesslike individual who is 
accustomed to handle things in the regular way, honorably and above- 
board, you did think it was a little strange that $25,000 in bills would 
be strewn on the table. 

Mr. Strunk. That is right, $34,000. 

Senator O'Conor. $25,000, the 25 plus the 9 later. Wliat was said 
by way of explanation by Mr. Crusco and the others as to why that very 
large amount was being carried around when a simple check 

Mr. Strunk. He said for income-tax purposes he didn't want to 
write out any check. 

Senator O'Conor. For income-tax purposes ? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes. He didn't want anybody checking on him. 

Senator O'Conor. Did he say where the currency had been gotten ? 

Mr. Strunk. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Or who he was representing if any one else other 
than himself? 

Mr. Strunk. No. 

Mr. Klein. But some of these bundles of cash bore the wrappers 
of the Corn Exchange National Bank & Trust Co. 

Mr. Strunk. I was not familiar, because the closest I came to the 
money was across the desk. 

Mr, Klein. You didn't see the wrappers ? 

Mr. Strunk. No, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 163 

Senator KEFAU^^R. Two questions: Why wasn't Mr. Campbell's 
$14,000 paid him? 

Mr. Strunk. He was given a note. 

Senator Kefauver. He said it was his nnderstandinc^ it would be 
paid right away. He was given a note and it has gotten into litiga- 
tion in some way. 

Mr, Strunk. That is true. We had the proposed sale of some in- 
ventory that didn't materialize. We had a lot of pipe there that we 
had negotiated to sell, at the last minute the negotiations fell through. 
We were going to use the money from that sale to pay off his $12,000 
note — $12,000 is the correct figure. That didn't come through. Be- 
fore the deal was consummated, right there at the table, I told him 
exactly what had happened, whether he would accept it before his 
stock was purchased, and he agreed to do it. 

Senator Ejefau\'er. Another question : Did you attend some of the 
stockholders meetings later when Samuel, Jr., came in ? 

Mr. Strunk. No, sir. 

Senator Kefauver, Did you attend those . 

Mr. Strunk. My attorney did. 

Mr. Berger. Not I, 

Senator Kefauver, Who was your attorney? 

Mr, Strunk, William O'Donnell. 

Senator Kefauver. Had he been informed that young Samuel came 
into those stockholders' meetings ? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes, sir ; with the power of attorney from Crusco, that 
is what I was informed. 

Senator Kefauver. Do you know if the company did actually get 
other orders, other than the thousand-dollar order after you left the 
company ? 

Mr. Strunk. I do not know. 

Senator Kefauvt^r. Do you have any information about it at all? 

Mr. Strunk. No, sir. 

Senator Kefau\^r. How did you happen to get out of the company? 

Mr. Strunk. The stockholders didn't agree with the way I was 
handling things, and rather than embarrass them, I resigned. 

Senator Kefauver, Did Crusco vote against you ? 

Mr, Strunk. There wasn't any vote to it. 1 resigned voluntarily. 

Senator Kefau\t:r. Did he disagree? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes. 

Senator I^fauver. He and Samuel. Samuel disagreed for him ? 

Mr, Strunk. That is right. 

Senator Kefauver, What did they want you to do that you weren't 
going to do ; Samuel, for instance. 

Mr. Strunk. The}'- claimed I misrepresented the sale of this stock 
to them, and the condition of the company. 

Mr. Bergen. And had you ? 

Mr, Struxk, No, sir. I took the report that had been given me. 

Mr. Berger. Had you made any misrepresentations to anybody at 
all in connection with that company ? 

Mr. Strunk. I have not. 

Senator O'Conor. In other words, you relied upon the facts as you 
knew them and reported to you by the other officers ? 

Mr. Strunk. No, sir. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kj:au\t:r. Have you ever been in any trouble ? 



164 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Strunk. I am under indictment now. I am being sued by 
Crusco. Campbell and myself are being sued by Crusico. 

Mr. Berger. There are two suits pending. One in civil and the 
other in criminal. The criminal suit in which I defended Mr. Strunk 
is an action brought in the quarter sessions court of Philadelphia 
County with two indictments, one for attempted obtaining money 
under false pretenses and the second one, conspiracy. 

Senator O'Conor. Growing out of this transaction ? 

Mr. Berger. Yes. "With respect to that, the case has been continued 
any number of times, not by my request, by the way. We are very 
anxious to have the case disposed of. I may say to this committee that 
I have studied the law with reference to it, and I am satisfied that 
there is no basis whatever for the charges against Mr. Strunk, par- 
ticularly in the jurisdictional point, because if any crime had been 
committed since 1910, the situs would have been in Montgomery 
County. It is a significant fact that Mr. Strunk was gotten out of his 
bed in the middle of the night and brought down to Philadelphia 
County for this prosecution. 

Senator Kefauver. Who brought him down ? 

Mr. Berger. Agents or representatives from Crusco, presumably. 

Mr. Strunk. Two State troopers and the local policeman in my 
home town. 

Mr. Berger. Mr. KJein might be able to get a copy of the opinion 
of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania on the civil suit, in which 
Chief Justice Drew, I have onlj^ an excerpt from it here — — 

Senator Kefauver. We are not interested in the details of the 
lawsuit. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Strunk, I show you here a minute book and I ask 
you if this is flie official minute book of the Strunk Steel Corp. 

Mr. Strunk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. I offer this as exhibit No. 4. 

Senator O'Conor. It will be so marked. 

(The document referred to is on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Berger. Could we put in the record what Mr. Strunk's back- 
ground is? You asked the question whether or not he had been in 
trouble. 

Mr. Klein. I don't think, Mr. Berger, that we need go into it at 
all at this time. We have a pretty fair idea. 

Mr. Berger. I wanted you to know he is an employee of long stand- 
ing of the Bethlehem Steel Co. He is a very responsible and respecta- 
ble member of the community. 

Senator O'Conor. We assume so and the comments of Senator 
Kefauver at the outset are evidence of that. 

Mr. Klein. I think Mr. Berger and Mr. Strunk also know that we 
have made an exhaustive investigation in that regard. 

Senator O'Conor. Thank you very much, gentlemen. 

Mr. Strunk. I don't know whether it has any value or not, but 
after I resigned one Sunday Miss Alma Arnold, the attorney repre- 
senting Mr. Crusco, came to my home. Apparently it was during the 
time there was another internal battle in the company between Crusco 
and Campbell. She came to my home and wanted to know whether 
I would give Crusco a power of attorney for my stock, which would 
have given him the controlling interest 'in the Strunk Steel Co. My 
answer to Miss Arnold was that I will sell the stock, but I won't give 



ORGANIZED CRIJVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 165 

the power of attorney, and if he wants to buy the stock, to see my 
attorney. Whether that has any bearing or not. 

JNIr. Klein. Will you give us the date of that occurrence ? 

Mr. Strunk. I can't give you the exact date. I can give it to you 
approximately — early in April 1947. 

]\lr. Halley. May I ask one last question : When Reuben Young 
told you he was very anxious to see Crusco got out of the numbers 
racket, did Crusco issue any denial that he had been in the numbers 
racket ? 

Mr. Strunk. He left me under the impression, without saying it 
explicitly, that his son was running it for him at the time. 

Mr. Halley. You mean Crusco did ? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes. 

Senator Kefauver. We have accounted for about 441 shares of stock. 
We haven't accounted for the other half. Is it widely held by a 
number of people? 

Mr. Strunk. Yes; in groups of not over $500. There would be 
500 shares, local citizens in the community. 

Senator Kj:fauver. That is all. 

Senator O'Conor. Thank you very much, Mr. Strunk. 

What is your name ? 

Mr. Crusco. Crusco. 

Senator O'Conor. Who are the other folks? 

Mr. Trasoff. Gentlemen, we represent Mr. Crusco, Miss Arnold 
and myself. We happen to be attorneys. 

Senator O'Conor. Will you just pull up another chair there. 

Stand up and raise your right hand. In the presence of Almighty 
God do you swear that the evidence you will give in this matter will 
be the truth, the wdiole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God ? 

Mr. Crusco. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS J. CRUSCO, PHILADELPHIA, PA., ACCOM- 
PANIED BY MISS ALMA ARNOLD AND AARON TRASOPF, 
ATTORNEYS, PHILADELPHIA, PA. 

Senator O'Conor. What is your full name ? 
Mr. Crusco. Louis J. Crusco. 
Senator O'Conor. And your address? 
Mr. Crusco. 1334 Shunk Street. 
Senator O'Conor. Will you identify yourselves? 
Miss Arnold. Alma Arnold. 
Mr. Trasoff. Aaron Trasoff. 

Senator O'Conor. Together you represent Mr. Crusco ? 
Mr. Trasoff. Yes. 

Senator O'Conor. Wliat is your occupation? 

Mr. Crusco. I am in the amusement company, Southside Amuse- 
ment Co. 

Senator O'Conor. All right, counsel. 

Mr. Klein. What is the business of the Southside Amusement Co.? 

Mr. Crusco. Wliat is the business? 

Mr. Klein. Yes. 

Senator Kefauver. Speak loudly for Mr. Crusco ; he can't hear well. 



166 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE^ 

Mr. Klein. What does the Southside Amusement Co. trade in ? 

Mr. Crusco. We have shuffle alleys, pinball machines. 

Mr. Klein. Coin-operated machines? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Are you alone in that business ? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. All alone? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. How long have you been in that business ? 

Mr. Crusco, Since the beginning of the summer, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Of 1950? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes. 

Mr. Klein, How much did you invest in that business? 

Mr. Crusco. I invested $1,825 and $2,000. 

Mr. Klein. $3,825? 

Mr. Crusco. No. It came to $4,000 altogether. 

Mr. Klein. Now in January of 1949 you made another 

Senator Kefauver. Excuse me just a minute. Is this the Southside 
Amusement Co.? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes. 

Senator Kefauver. What does this company do ? 

Mr. Crusco. It serves taprooms, clubs, luncheonettes. My first 
enterprise was the Southside Drive-in. 

Senator Kefauver. Wliat do you service them with ? 

Mr. Crusco. Sir? 

Senator Kefauver. What do you service them with ? 

Mr. Crusco. I serve them with tools. 

Senator Kefait^t^r. Jukeboxes or what? 

Mr. Crusco. Jukeboxes, pinball machines, shuffle alleys. 

Senator KEFAim^R. Coin machines ? 

Mr. Crusco. Coin machines. 

Senator Kefauver. Roscoe machines ? 

Mr. Crusco. I didn't hear. 

Senator Kefauver. Roscoe machines ? 

Mr. Crusco. Roscoe. 

Senator Kefauver. One-arm bandits? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. How many places do you service ? 

Mr. Crusco. I have here now '? 

Senator Kefaitver. Just approximately. 

Mr. Crusco. I have all the stuff here. 

Senator Kjefauver. Let me see that and you go ahead. 

Mr. Crusco. The first page. 

Mr. Klein. In January 1949 you made another investment in the 
Strunk Steel Co.? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Will you tell the committee how you came to make that 
investment ? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes ; I will tell you the whole truth. 

In the fall of 1948 I met a man by the name of Mr, Strunk, a man 
who would go to your heart, believe me. He had been around, went 
to dinner and you look to a man, the president of a steel corporation. 
I believe you saw the gentleman, and I think he would go to anyone's 
heart. So I was doing little good deeds, different architects to get 



ORGAJSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 167 

Structural steel. So in those good deeds he said to me, "I am goinp; 
to have you alongside of me." I said, "Bill, what can you do for me?" 

He said, "Some day I am going to have you something, but it is a 
secret." 

So that kept on and on for about 3 or 4 weeks. So he comes along and 
says, "I have the right proposition for you. You know, I love you 
alongside of me. You have wonderful ideas," and so on like that. He 
said, "How about your coming in our company ?" 

I said, "How could I come in your company?" 

He said "I will tell you : We have a man by the name of Mr. Camp- 
bell, Louis Campbell, Jr. He wants to retire. He wants to go to Cali- 
fornia, He is sickly. He wants to go out of the business." 

So I said, "What is the inducement?" 

He said, "I will tell you, I will bring the paper around, I will show 
you, there is no flim-flam here or nothing like that. I love you." 

So all right. He brought a paper, a run-down sheet of the com- 
pany. It showed it was August 31, 1948. I said, "Bill," I says, "this 
is at the end of December. Why is it you don't have it to date?" 

He said, "I am not a college education fellow. I am a man," he 
says, "education I don't have like you have." 

Mr. Klein. At any rate you wanted a later statement. 

Mr. Crusco. Yes. He said, "Look, Louis, I am going to tell you 
the truth. As sure as my boy is in Heaven," he said, and tears came 
down his eyes, and he would say his boy got killed in the Air Force. 

Mr. K'LEiN. Mr. Crusco, may I interrupt you for a second. We are 
running late and we would like some of the details eliminated. 

Mr. Crusco. I am telling you the story as it happened. I can tell it 
to you 100,000,000 times 

Mr. Klein. Go ahead, but make it a little bit briefer. 

Mr. Crusco. I didn't care if he fooled me. He fooled my surround- 
ings. That is what he did. 

Senator O'Conor. What did you do then? Did you decide to buy? 

Mr. Crusco. No. I asked him that. He said "Look, Louis, our 
accountant had a tumor operation, and his operation Avas very suc- 
cessful, and he is going to be back." he said "to make up the state- 
ments in March. You don't have to be afraid." 

He said, "We have a contract with the United States Navy." He 
said "Not only one, but four all told." 

Senator O'Conor. So then did you decide to buy the stock? ^ 

Mr. Crusco. No; I didn't. I didn't know. I didn't even know 
where the place was. I didn't know from nothing. 

Senator O'Conor. When did you decide to buy it? 

Mr. Crusco. He called 

Senator O'Conor. No ; when did you decide ? 

Mr. Crusco. I tell you what happened if you will give me 

Senator O'Conor. But when are you going to come down to the 
point, when did you decide to buy the stock ? 

Mr. Crusco. When I went to Royersford I mean they told me to 
bring the cash up there, absolutely cash. The 27th, on a Thursday. 

Senator O'Conor. And where did you get the cash ? 

Mr. Crusco. I got that all loaned. 

Senator O'Conor. All? . 

Mr. Crusco. The money is all loaned from friends of mine, from 
bars, my mother-in-law, my mother. 



168 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator O'Conor. You got it from different places ? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. 

Senator O'Conor. You got it from different places? 

Mr. Crusgo. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Did you take any out of the bank ? 

Mr. Crusco. I didn't have any money in the bank. 

Senator O'Conor. So it was all borrowed from different people? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. It wasn't wrapped together in any way ? 

Mr. Crusco. What do you mean, sir? 

Senator O'Conor. There wasn't any in a pile with wrappers on it? 

Mr. Crusco. No, no. 

Senator O'Conor. Just picked up from different people? 

Mr. Crusco. I just picked up money. As sure as God is my judge, 
they had rubber bands on them. 

Senator O'Conor. How much altogether? 

Mr. Crusco. It was $34,000 they wanted. Then Mr. Campbell 
raised up and he said, "Don't forget, Bill, I have two more shares 
which I bought from one of the workers. It will be another $20." 

Senator O'Conor. So you put that up too ? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes. 

Senator O'Conor. So altogether you put up $34,020? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. You got that cash from 

Mr. Crusco. From different people. 

Senator O'Conor. Who ? Give us the names. 

Mr. Crusco. I will give you the names. 

Senator O'Conor. And the amounts. 

Mr. Crusco. I have a book here if you like. 

Senator O'Conor. Just tell us the amounts that you got. 

Mr. Crusco. My mother 

Miss Arnold. May he refer to his book ? 

Mr. Crusco. My mother and dad gave me $5,000. 

Senator O'Conor. In cash ? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. I got more money than that, you see. 

Senator O'Conor. They gave you $5,000. 

Mr. Crusco. He didn't know how much. 

Senator O'Conor. In other words you got more than $34,000 ? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes. 

Senator O'Conor. How much altogether did you get? 

Mr. Crusco. I got $40,000. 

Senator O'Conor. In other words, you had $40,000 so as to be 
ready to pay whatever was necessary? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes. 

Senator O'Conor. You have $5,000 from your mother and father. 
What are their names? 

Mr. Crusco. My mother and dad? Vincent Crusco, Rosemarie 
Crusco. 

Senator O'Conor. Address ? 

Mr. Crusco. 1331 Morris Street. 

Senator O'Conor. That is $5,000. Now next, what is the next one ? 

Mr. Crusco. Vincent Cerone, godfather, stood for my boy, Vincent 
Cerone. 



ORGAiNIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 169 

Senator O'Conor. How do you spell liis name? 

Mr. Crusco. C-e-r-o-n-e. 

Senator O'Conor. And. Ms address? 

Mr. Crusco. 420 Whitehorse Pike, Audubon, N. J. 

Senator O'Conor. He gave you how much? 

Mr. Crusco. He gave me $4,000. 

Senator O'Conor. All right. Next? 

Mr. Crusco. A gentleman by the name of Bill Fitzpatrick. 

Senator O'Conor. Address ? 

Mr. Crusco. Fitzgerald, I am sorry. 

Senator O'Conor. Fitzgerald. His address? 

Mr. Crusco. His address is in Ashland, N. J.; no address at all, 
just a little community. 

Senator O'Conor. How much did he give you ? 

Mr. Crusco. He gave me $2,000. 

Senator O'Conor. The next? 

Mr. Crusco. Mr. Keuben Beckler. 

Senator O'Conor. And his address ? 

Mr. Crusco. It is in Cleveland, Ohio. 

Senator O'Conor. How much ? 

Mr. Crusco. $3,000. 

Senator O'Conor. Next? 

Mr. Crusco. Thomas DiGiacomo. 

Senator O'Conor. Wliat is his address ? 

Mr. Crusco. His address is in Glen Kock, N. J. 

Senator O'Conor. How^ much did you get from him? 

Mr. Crusco. He gave me $3,000. 

Andrew, his brother-in-law, Andrew DiCarlo. 

Senator O'Conor. What is his address? 

Mr. Crusco. I don't know his address. I have it in the book. 
Paterson, N. J. 

Senator O'Conor. How much from him? 

Mr. Crusco. $3,000 off him. 
. Senator O'Conor. Do you have all these listed ? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes. 

Senator O'Conor. You can look at your book. 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, indeed. That is what my wife had. My mother- 
in-law also gave me $20,000. 

Senator O'Conor. That is Mrs. Angelina 

Mr. Crusco. Scannapieco.. 

Senator O'Conor. Scannapieco. 

That is 1528 North Dover Street in Philadelphia. 

Mr. Crusco. Yes. She is a widow. 

Senator O'Conor. $20,000 from her. All of this was gotten in 
cash? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. He didn't want no check, absolutely 
didn't want no check. 

Senator O'Conor. Mr. Strunk told you that? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. 

Senator O'Conor. Mr. Crusco, this book you have just produced 
gives the names and addresses of the different people who you said 
loaned you the money with which you bought this stock? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. 



170 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator O'Conor. Altogether it shows a total of $40,000 of which 
you gave $34,000 and then you gave your wife the balance of $6,000 ? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. I have some other notation there if you 
want to see it. 

Do you want me to finish ? 

Senator O'Conor. Yes. Go ahead. 

Mr. Crusco. When we were at the table just like here, sir, believe 
me it is just the same, identically like that, Mr. Strunk was there — 
you see I have a bad ear, two bad ears. One is better than the other, 
you see. I am ashamed to wear a hearing aid. Mr. Campbell was 
there. Miss Arnold was there, and Mr. Strunk was sitting where you 
are. So I said to Mr. Strunk, I said "Mr. Strunk, maybe we can get 
them cheaper." 

He said "You can ask them," like he didn't hear, you see. So I 
spoke to Mr. Campbell and I said, "Mr. Campbell, you seem to be a 
fine gentleman. Why is it you want to get out of this?" 

He said, "Well, Mr. Strunk told you I want to get out, I want to 
retire. I am on the board of directors of two banks. I also have 
another plant. What do I want to be, the richest man in the cemetery 
and give Uncle Sam 85 percent?" 

He said, "I want to retire. I want to go out in the Southwest." He 
said, "That money is only peanuts to me," just like that. 

I said "That is very nice of you. If you want to be a good Samari- 
tan, what do you say ? This is all borrowed money" 

Senator O'Coxor. In other words, you told them at the time it was 
borrowed money ? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes. 

Senator O'Conor. Did you tell them from whom you had borrowed 
it? 

Mr. Crusco. No ; I didn't. I didn't ; no. He said, "Oh, no. Those 
stocks are worth more today," he said, "than August 31, 1948." 

He said "You don't realize what you are getting into." He said the 
same things that Mr. Strunk said. You see, everything collared to- 
gether. If I tell you a word of lie, I have eight children, and lost one 
with rheumatic fever, I had one boy's spleen taken out. I wouldn't lie. 
That is what they did to me. On February 21 they made me open up 
an office at 124 North Third Street. They told me I had connections. 
I didn't see no books. Pardon me. I am running away from my story. 

The next day on a Friday I report to work. I didn't hear no noise. 
There is a gigantic shop. I don't hear nothing. So Bill came in there. 
I said "What happened. Bill, no work today ?" 

Senator O'Conor. Bill? 

Mr. Crusco. Mr. Strunk. I said "Bill, no work today?" He said 
"No," he says, "Louis, we are all overjoyed. We are tickled to death 
you are in the company." I said all right. So what was I going to 
say ? On the following Monday I go in the shop, no books. I am sup- 
posed to be vice president and treasurer of the company. I don't see 
no books. I don't see nothing. They are still waiting for the account- 
ant to come in, the man who is sick. So he takes me out into the town 
and makes me meet the people next door and the people alongside of 
him and people on the corner, fine people, very nice people. They 
wished me luck and all that stuff. He told me he was going to move, 
the next door neighbor was going to give them more ground for their 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 171 

job for the Navy, whicli Avas fjood. lie insisted, still insisted on 
February 21 on that board of directors meeting 

Senator O'Conor. Did you attend the board of directors meeting? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir; I was invited there; yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Did you ever give anybody power of attorney? 

Mr. Crusgo. Power of attorney? 

Senator O'Conor. Power of attorney, yes. Did anybody represent 
you at any time at the board of directoi-s meeting? 

Mr. Crusco. The only time when they represented me is when the 
money was passed. 

Senator O'Conor. Who represented you? 

Mr. Crusco. Miss Arnold. 

Senator O'Conor. Did anybody else cast your vote at the board of 
directors meeting ? 

Mr. Crusco. No. They said they didn't come — ^}^ou see they wanted 
to raise $50,000, and I was shocked. I couldn't talk. It is just like 
you take a loaf of bread and try to swallow it at one time. So I 
wanted to get up and Mr. Wagner, his attorney was alongside of me 
and said sit down. We are not through. Mr. Young and Mr. Samuel, 
he was shocked. 

Senator O'Conor. Who is Mr. Young? 

Mr. Crusco. Reuben Young. He is the gentleman that I met at 
12-1 North Third Street. _ 

Senator O'Conor. He is the gentleman you met whom through? 

Mr. Crusco. Mr. Strunk. 

Senator O'Conor. Mr. Young introduced you to Mr. Strunk? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. 

Senator O'Conor. And how long have you known Mr. Young? 

Mr. Crusco. Mr. Young, I have known him for about a year or a 
year and a half. 

Senator O'Conor. Any business dealings with him ? 

Mr. Crusco. Why, yes. I buy scrap, war assets stuff at that time. 

Senator O'Conor. Wliat business were you in ? 

Mr. Crusco. At this time I was buying different stuff like wire, 
scrap 

Senator O'Conor. How long had you been in that business? 

Mr. Crusco. I have been in it since 1947. 

Senator O'Conor. Was that the only business you were in ? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. What other business? 

Mr. Crusco. I am not ashamed to say I have been a carpenter. I 
couldn't do no more carpenter work. I had an operation in my arm. 
I couldn't handle any tools. Part of it is paralyzed. 

Senator O'Conor. What other business? 

Mr. Crusco. I was in the gambling business in a very small way. 

Senator O'Conor. For what period? 

Mr. Crusco. Since the depression. 

Senator O'Conor. When did you first go into the gambling busi- 
ness? 

Mr. CRusco. I was in it I believe in the early part of 1935. 

Senator O'Conor. And how long did you stay in it? 

Mr. Crusco. I was arrested and they scared the heck out of me and 
I got 2 years probation. 



172 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator O'Conor. How long did you stay? When did you stop? 

Mr. Crusco. I stopped. You have got eight kids around you 

Senator O'Conor, Wlien? 

Mr. Crusco. Right there at the end of 1935 on my probation. 

Senator O'Conor. Have you been in the gambling business since 
then ? 

Mr. Crusco. No. 

Senator O'Conor. What kind of gambling were you in? 

Mr. Crusco. I was writing little numbers. 

Senator O'Conor. What territory did you cover ? 

Mr. Crusco. I went to my own kind. We have a big family, aunts, 
uncles, and stuff. 

Senator O'Conor. What was the amount ? 

Mr. Crusco. It ran about $25 or $26 a day. It was just enough to 
buy bread. 

Senator O'Conor. Who were you in business with, gambling 
business? 

Mr. Crusco. By myself. I handled it all myself. 

Senator O'Conor. You want the committee to believe you haven't 
been in the gambling business since 1935 ? 

Mr, Crusco. No. I am not saying that. So in that time between 
Ay35 and 1937 I sold coffee, I sold tea, I sold butter, I sold eggs. When 
1 would get to a customer, well, give him maybe a dozen eggs. 

Senator O'Conor. And write numbers too ? 

Mr. Crusco. No ; I couldn't. I was afraid. 

Senator O'Conor. Did you go in the gambling business after that ? 

Mr. Crusco. So they trusted me and would say I will give it to 
you next week and next week and next week. So I didn't do so good. 
I sold my boy's insurance, the one the spleen was taken out of. 

Senator O'Conor. When did you go in the gambling business 
again ? 

Mr. Crusco. In 1938. 

Senator O'Conor. How long did you stay in it ? 

Mr. Crusco. I only stayed in to the end of 1946. 

Senator O'Conor. 1946? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. You were in from 1938 to 1946, doing what? 

Mr. Crusco. Just writing a book of my own. 

Senator O'Conor. A book. Race bets? 

Mr. Crusco. No, no; just numbers. 

Senator O'Conor, What was the amount? What was the average? 

Mr, Crusco, It varied. On Mondays probably it would go about $21. 

Senator O'Conor, What would you average a week? 

Mr, Crusco, My make ? 

Senator O'Conor. Yes. 

Mr. Crusco. I would average around about $35 or $40 a week. 

Senator O'Conor. Who did you bank with? 

Mr. Crusco. Huh ? 

Senator O'Conor, Who did you bank with? 

Mr. Crusco. Bank? 

Senator O'Conor. Yes. Who did you write with ? 

Mr, Crusco. I wrote myself ; just myself. 

Senator O'Conor, Were you tied in with anj^body else? 

Mr, Crusco, No, sir. 



ORGAHSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 173 

Senator O'Conor. How many times were you arrested? 

Mr. Crusco. I was arrested just that time and befoi-e that, but they 
never — you know what I mean — got me with anything. So in 1935 
they got me riglit. 

Senator O'Conor, You stayed in it from 1938 to 1946. How many 
times in that 8-year period were you arrested ? 

Mr. Crusco. I was arrested, somebody said it was my name; it 
wasn't. I was brought in. To match my name, Ti'uscott. It wasn't 
Crusco. They made me appear in front of the man, and the man said, 
"No; that is not him." There was nobody there. There were three 
or four men. 

Senator O'Conor. You got along pretty well in the 8 years without 
being arrested very much. 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. The only time I did get arrested was in 1935. 

Senator O'Conor. Did you pay off any of the police? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. I couldn't afford it. 

Senator O'Conor. You didn't have to do it? 

Mr. Crusco. Which ? 

Senator O'Conor. Pay off anybody. 

Mr. Crusco. I was very cautious. 

Senator O'Conor. After 1946 what did you do? 

Mr. Crusco. Then I went into commission salesman, buying this 
and buying that. 

Senator O'Conor. Is that what you call yourself, commissioner? 

Mr. Crusco. No. I was a merchant, a commission merchant. Say, 
for instance, I would sell a piece of machinery like wood-working 
machinery 

Senator O'Conor. Are you licensed as a broker of any kind ? 

Mr. Crusco. No. I was a street man. 

Senator O'Conor. Have you been doing any gambling business since 
1946? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. You tell the committee, you swear, that you 
haven't been engaged since 1946 ? 

Mr. Crusco. Since 1946. 

Senator O'Conor. At any time was anybody else interested in your 
gambling business at any time ? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. What moneys, if any, did you pay to anybody else 
for protection to let you go ? 

Mr. Crusco. I paid no one, believe me, sir. I have eight children. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Crusco, did you ever live at 2517 South Juniper 
Street? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Were you arrested on ]\Iay 17, 1930, at 2517 South 
Juniper Street for setting up and maintaining an illegal lottery ? 

Mr. Crusco. I was arrested? 

Mr. Klein. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Crusco. May 30? 

Mr. Klein. May 17, 1930. You were tried on October 24, 1930, by 
Judge Barnett, found guilty, and you paid a $25 fine and costs. Is that 
correct ? 

-51— pt. 11 12 



174 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE C'OMMERCEi 

Mr. Crusco. Would you mind telling me who was the attorney 
there ? 

Mr. Klein. I don't know who the attorney was. 

Mr. Trasoff. He has no clear recollection of it. 

Mr. Klein. Were you arrested on the 1st of October 1938 at 1334 
Shunk Street and charged with operating a disorderly house and 
writing numbers ? 

Mr. Crusco. In my home, 1334 Shunk Street ? 

Mr. Klein. That is correct. 

Mr. Crusco. No. 

Mr. Klein. You were tried before Judge Leaventhal ; you pleaded 
guilty and were given 2 years' probation and paid the costs. 

Mr. Crusco. 1935 ? 

Mr. Klein. 1938. 

Mr. Crusco. No. Two-year probation? 

Mr. Klein. That is right. Were you arrested on August 9, 1949, 
at 1334 Shunk Street and charged with setting up and maintaining 
an illegal lottery and discharged by Magistrate Medway ? Yes or no, 
or don't you remember ? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes ; I think you are right there. 

Mr. Klein. Were you arrested on the 19th of March 1941, charged 
with setting up and maintaining an illegal lottery, and discharged by 
Magistrate Williams ? 

Mr. Crusco. That is the one with Magistrate Williams 

Mr. Klein. You admit that? 

Mr. Crusco. No; I didn't. 

Mr. Klein. That is the one that was the false name? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. Were you arrested on November 8, 1945, at 1334 Shunk 
Street and charged with setting up and maintaining an illegal lot- 
tery and discharged by Magistrate O'Malley ? 

Yes or no, or don't you remember ? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes; that is right. That was, the identification was 
wrong also. 

Mr. Klein. That is the one that the identification was wrong also, 
you say. That is the one where the identification was wrong? 

Mr. Crusco. That is the one where the identification was wrong. 

Mr. Klein. That was the only one time when the identification was 
wrong ? 

Mr. Crusco. This one here. 

Mr. Klein. The last one? 

Mr. Crusco. Wliat year was that. Chief ? 

Mr. Klein. November 8, 1945. So from May 1930 to November 1945 
you were arrested five times, but once you say was an improper identi- 
fication. Is that right? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. All right. 

Senator Kefauver. I thought he said a minute ago that from the 
time he went back into the gambling business in 1938 he never had 
been arrested except once. 

Mr. Crusco. In 1935. 

Senator Kefauver. Do you admit all these arrests when you told us 
a minute ago that you 

Mr. Crusco. I don't remember. 



ORGANIZED CRIME ITST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 175 

Senator K^efaitver. Ah, Mr. Crusco, 

Mr. Crusco, You have got that all mixed up. 

Senator Kefafver. What is the big idea coming here and telling 
Ihe committee joii haven't been arrested from the time you got on 
probation on wp until you quit gambling in 1945 except one time when 
they had a wrong identification, and here are all these times? 

Mr. Crusgo. This here. Your Honor; look at this. It was never in 
:my home, believe me. 

Senator Kefauver. We are not asking whether it is in your home. 
We are asking whether you were arrested or not and what happened, 
and you denied it. Here you are October 1, 1938, arrested at 1334 
. Shunk Street and charged with operating a disorderly house, numbers. 
Adding machines and telephones were confiscated. Held for court by 
Magistrate Henry on bail of $1,000. 

February 14, 1939, was tried by Judge Leaventhal, pleaded guilty. 
Two years' probation and costs. Is that the time you got 2 years' pro- 
bation? 

Mr. Crusco. I don't remember, believe me, honestly I don't remem- 
ber. 

Mr. Trasoff. If you don't remember, say so, but don't make any 
.statements that you are not sure of. 

Mr. Crusco. I have been in the hospital. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Crusco, did you bring your income-tax returns? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. May I see them, please ? 

(Documents produced by the witness.) 

Mr. Halley. Do you have a bank account? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had one ? 

Mr. Crusco. I have one now. 

Mr. Halley. You do ? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have your bankbook here with your bank 
? statement ? 

Mr. Crusco. Checks? 

Mr. Halley. Is that the only bank account you have ? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. What bank is it ? 

Mr. Crusco. The Central Bank. 

Mr. Halley. When did you open that account ? 

Mr. Crusco. I opened up in the early part of the summer. 

Mr. Halley. This year, this summer ? 

Mr. Crusco. The early part of the summer. 

Senator O'Conor. Do you own any other property ? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. In that connection, do you own your home? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes. 

Senator O'Conor. How much is it worth ? 

Mr. Crusco. It was worth — when I bought it, I bought it for $3,200. 

Senator O'Conor. You say you are only making a small amount, a 
little amount all this time. You didn't ever make a great deal of 
: money? 

Mr. Crusco. No. 



176 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator O'Conor. What kind of automobile have you been driving ? 

Mr. Crusco. Well, I had a used — I sold my Chrysler. 

Senator O Conor. What kind of a car have you now ? 

Mr. Crusco. A Cadillac. 

Senator O'Conor. What is the value of it ? 

Mr. Crusco. $4,500. 

Mr. Halley. What year? 

Mr. Crusco. 1948. 

Senator Kefau^er. Did you buy it new ? 

Mr. Crusco. I bought it new ; yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. Is anybody else interested in the stock, or do you 
own it all ? 

Mr. Crusco. I was in good faith ; the story got 

Senator O'Conor. No, no. Just did anybody else have any interest 
in that stock that you bought? 

Mr. Crusco. No. I have. 

Senator O'Conor. Does anybody else own any part of it? 

Mr. Crusco. Mr. Campbell's? 

Senator O'Conor. The stock that you got, or do you own it all ? 

Mr. Crusco. I own it. 

Senator O'Conor. Do you? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. You bought it all. Do you know Mr. Samuel? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. I have known him for 20 years. 

Senator O'Conor. Do you know his son? 

Mr. Crusco. I don't mean Mr. Samuel. Which? 

Senator O'Conor. Which did you mean? 

Mr. Crusco. I meant junior. I mean senior. There are two of 
them. 

Senator O'Conor. You know both of them then ? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, Senator. That is Bernard, the dad, and Richard 
is the son. 

Senator O'Conor. Have you had any business dealings with either 
of them? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. You never had any business dealings with them 
of any kind at all ? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. With Mr. Richard Samuel, Senior or Junior ? 

Mr. Crusco. Senior, 

Senator O'Conor. You never had any business dealings with Mr, 
Richard Samuel, Jr. ? 

Mr. Crusco. No. I had only one dealing. I borrowed $1,825 to- 
buy the machines for the drive-in. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have a bank account before this one ? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir ; I never did. 

Mr. Halley. You did all your dealing in cash? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you get the money for the Cadillac ? 

Mr. Crusco. I got it from my wife. 

Mr. Halley. She gave it to you ? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. She bought it. 

Mr. Halley. In cash ? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. I had another car turned in on it. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 177 

Mr. Halley. Does your wife liave a bank account? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. Her mother gave it to her. Her father 
passed away. 

Mr. Halley. When did her father pass away ? 

Mr. Crusco. 1937. 

Mr. Halley. Is her mother a wealthy woman ? 

Mr. Crusco. Not wealthy. Her husband had a barber shop at Fif- 
teenth and Samson. 

Mr. Halley. Did he leave a lot of insurance? 

Mr. Crusco. No. There wasn't much insurance, but it was in cash. 
He had saved it in between themselves. 

Mr. Halley. How much cash did it take to buy the Cadillac ? 

Mr. Crusco. $4,500. 

Mr. Halley. Plus your old car? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. What kind of Cadillac is it? 

Mr. Crusco. Fleetwood. 

Mr. Halley. A Fleetwood. 

Mr. Crusco. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Seven-passenger? 

Mr. Crusco. No; five-passenger. 

Mr. Halley. Model 62? 

Mr. Crusco. No, 60-S. 

Mr. Halley. You paid $4,500 plus your old car ? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You delivered the $4,500 in cash ? 

Mr. Crusco. No ; I didn't. I didn't have all the money, so he made 
an encumbrance on it, and then I got the money and he signed it. 

Mr. Halley. How long did it take you to pay the $4,500 ? 

Mr. Crusco. That was about — I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. More than 2 months ? 

Mr. Crusco. That I couldn't say. 

Mr. Halley. Six months ? 

Mr. Crusco. Maybe it could be sooner. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. What was the problem about getting all the cash ? 

Mr. Crusco. To get the money off my wife. 

Mr. Halley. Did your wife have it, or was it her mother's money? 

Mr. Crusco. It was her mother's. 

Mr. Halley. So she had to go to her mother to get it. 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Then your mother-in-law also gave you $20,000 for the 

Mr. Crusco. $40,000— $20,000. 

Mr. Halley. Plus $4,500 for the car? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right, because I gave her back $6,000 

Mr. Halley. Your mother-in-law is the widow of a barber? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. He had three shops, one in Atlantic 
City. 

Mr. Halley. Wliere are the other shops ? 

Mr. Crusco. One was on Fifteenth and Samson, one in Atlantic 
City. The last time he worked was on Eleventh and Gilbert. 

Mr. Halley. Did he have all three shops at once? 

Mr. Crusco. No ; he moved. ^ 

Mr. Halley. Just one at a time ? 



178 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Crusco. That is right, four or five barbers. You see they were 
buying the buildings. 

Mr. Halley. You don't expect me to believe that a man in that 
business would accumulate that kind of money ? 

Mr. Crusco. Well 

Mr. Halley. You don't believe it, do you ? 

Mr. Crusco. I don't believe it ? Where would I get it ? 

Mr. Halley. You tell us where you got the money. 

Mr. Crusco. That is what I did. 

Mr. Halley. I certainly don't believe you got it that way. 

Mr. Crusco. That is where I got it. 

Mr. Halley. Did you pay back any of that money ? 

Mr. Crusco. No, I owe it. 

Mr. Halley. You owe your mother-in-law $24,500 now? 

Mr. Crusco. No, I owe her $20,000. 

Mr. Halley. How about the money for the car ? 

Mr. Crusco. That was the balance what I got altogether from 
$40,000. 

Mr. Halley. From the forty? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You bought the car new, didn't you ? 

Mr. Crusco. Sir? 

Mr. Halley. You bought the car new, didn't you ? 

Mr. Crusco. I don't know if it is new or not. 

Mr. Halley. When you bought it, I mean. 

Mr. Crusco. It was supposed to be new, yes. 

Mr. Halley. Wlien did you buy it? 

Mr. Crusco. I bought it in December. 

Mr. Halley. What year? 

Mr. Crusco. 1948. 

Mr. Halley. December of 1948? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. When did you borrow the money for this deal? 

Mr. Crusco. Mr. Strunk gave it to me away before. 

Mr. Halley. But you didn't know how much you needed? You 
showed up at the closing with $40,000 in cash, you said. 

Mr. Crusco. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. But now you say 

Mr. Crusco. No, I didn't show up there with $40,000. I never said 
that. 

Mr. Halley. You certainly did. 

Mr. Crusco. No, I didn't bring any money back. I gave $20,000' 
out of my own pocket, if you remember. 

Mr. Halley. You said you arrived there with $40,000 because you: 
didn't know how much it would cost. 

Mr. Crusco. I didn't know at that time that I accumulated the' 
money because Mr. Strunk wanted me to raise $50,000. 

Mr. Halley. Yow didn't know at the time you went to the meeting?' 

Mr. Crusco. No, no. He said, "You get ready, Lou, and you willi 
be surprised," you see. That is how I had all that money altogether. 

Senator O'Conor. When you went to the meeting with Mr. Strunk,. 
how much money did you take there ? 

Mr. Crusco. He told me what to bring. 

Senator O'Conor. What did you bring? 



OEGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 179 

Mr. Crusco. I brouorht $34,000. 

Senator O'Conor. But you had collected $40,000 before that. 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. Away in 1948. 

Senator O'Conor. From whom did you buy the car? 

Mr. Crusco. Mr. Sachs. 

Senator O'Conor. Mr. Sachs? 

Mr. Cruscx). Yes, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. You had that whole $40,000 together, then in 
1948? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, that is right. 

Senator O'Conor. Then you bought the car. 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. 

Senator O'Conor. Then you still had some money left to buy the 
deal? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. 

Senator O'Conor. You said you couldn't pay the whole $4,500 for 
the car because you didn't have it. 

Mr. Crusco. I held it up at that time. 

Mr. Halley. I think you are about the worst liar I have ever heard 
in here. 

Mr. Trasoff. I don't think that that is a fair comment. He is not 
the smartest witness that you ever come across. I think that it is ob- 
vious that the gentleman is not as bright as we would like him to be. 
He gets confused on facts and gets easily confused when counsel ably 
cross-examines him. As I understand his story 

Senator O'Conor. I don't want to shut you off but I don't know 
that it is just the place for you to interpret his testimony. 

Mr. Trasoff. May I say for the record, by the way, that we repre- 
sent Mr. Crusco only in connection with the case against the Strunk 
people. This is as much news to us as it is to you. We have never 
heard it except this morning when he came to appear before you. This 
is all news to us as much as it is to you. 

Mr. Halley. Now, Mr. Crusco, you said you didn't have all the 
money to buy the car, so you had to take some sort of mortgage on it 
and some months later you paid the balance? Isn't that what you 
said? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, but at that time I didn't know how much money 
I had to use to bring to Strunk, you see. 

Mr. Halley. You said you did. You said Strunk had told you. 

Mr. Crusco. In January he told me. Maybe I bought the car in 
November. I don't remember. I have been a sick man. I take spasms. 

Mr. Halley. You look as though you are about to have one. 

Senator Kefauver. Let's get on with the examination. 

"Mr. Trasoff. I think that sarcasm is not called for. 

Mr. Crusco. I am the guilty fellow. They skinned me alive, those 
young fellows. 

Mr. Halley. Why don't you tell us the truth? 

Mr. Crusco. I am telling you the truth. 

Mr. Halley. You borrowed $3,000 from one man and $2,000 from 
another and you used that money, your friend's hard-earned money, 
to buy a Cadillac car ? Is that the kind of fellow you are ? 

Mr. Crusco. When you are presentable — look, I don't buy a car 
every year, sir. That is the first time. Because I felt that buying 
a good car you won't have to buy one for 4 or 5 or 6 years. 



180 ORGAI^riZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. What kind of car was your Chrysler? 

Mr. Crusco. a Windsor. 

Mr. Halley. What year was that? 

Mr. Crusco. 1942. 

Mr. Halley. You had that for 6 years. 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. I turned that in with an old Cadillac. 

Mr. Halley. With an old Cadillac? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. So you had two cars ? 

Mr. Crusco. No; I turned it in on a 1942 Cadillac. You see cars 
couldn't be gotten at that time. The Cadillac was worn down, and 
I traded this old Cadillac, to get another car. She would lose the 
value. So you had to stay on that 

Mr. Halley. Isn't it a fact that Keuben Young said to Strunk that 
you were trying to get out of the numbers racket and that is why 
you were buying into this steel company ? 

Mr. Crusco. Mr. Strunk never knew. I never let no one know my 
business. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't Mr. Young say that in your presence? 

Mr. Crusco. It was in 1947, 1948, 1949, to today I haven't any 
numbers business. 

Mr. Halley. What business is your son in ? 

Mr. Crusco. My son? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Crusco. He is working with the body men ; why ? 

Mr. Halley. Is he in the numbers business ? 

Mr. Crusco. No. 

Mr. Halley. Are you sure of that ? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. When were you last in the numbers business ? 

Mr. Crusco. Last? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Crusco. 1946. 

Mr. Halley. Why did you bring Samuel into this thing? 

Mr. Crusco. I felt this way. To be honest, I figured I didn't want 
to knock Mr. Strunk or anything. I thought probably by taking the 
mayor's son there was no conspiracy, and it would be a shoulder to me. 
I don't have no education. I don't have no college education. He 
could see that things were right. 

Mr. Halley. Did the mayor's son say he would get some contracts 
for you ? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't he go into an office to take on the business of 
getting contracts ? 

Mr. Trasoff. Grandson, pardon me. 

Mr. Crusco. You have that wrong. That is Junior. 

Mr. Halley. How old is Junior? 

Mr. Crusco. Junior is about 22 or 23 ; I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. What were his duties going to be ? 

Mr. Crusco. There is a big story on that. I don't like to take up 
your time. 

Mr. Halley. Just tell us what he was supposed to do. 

Mr. Crusco. All right. Mr. Strunk told him, "Boy, we are left by 
ourselves. I am 52 years old. I will have him in and teach him from 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 181 

the ground up." And so on like that. The boy was ready to pack up 
to live with him. After the deal was done he didn't even let him go 
in the house. So he worked him in the shop, upstairs in the patteriL 
shop, and the boy was tickled to death. 

Mr. ILillley. You took the boy in because of his father; is that 
right ? 

Mr. Crusco. No, no. 

Mr. Halley. You have just said you wanted to be associated with, 
the mayor's son ; is that ri^ht ? 

Mr. Crusco. The mayor's son, being that he looked out for me and 
the boy, said to me, "How about a job ?" I said, "Maybe you might not 
like it." He said, "No ; I would love it." So that is why Mr. Strunk 
hired him. 

Mr. Halley. Did your mother-in-law keep her money in a bank ? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. When your father-in-law died, was there a will ? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did a lawyer handle his estate ? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. There was no estate j)robated ? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Doesn't the law of this State require that an estate 
be probated? I should think so. You mean there was no estate 
probated in the State of Pennsylvania or anywhere else which will 
show that your mother-in-law inherited or otherwise acquired that 
money ? 

Mr. Crusco. They saved that money, 50 years in business. 

Mr. Halley. Fifty years in the barber business, you don't save that 
kind of money. What kind of house does she live in ? 

Mr. Crusco, She lived on Juniper Street. 

Mr. Halley. In a house? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did she own it ? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How much of a mortgage on it ? 

Mr. Crusco. I don't know. That I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. We can check the records on that. Does she own an 
automobile ? 

Mr. Crusco. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Does she have any servants ? 

Mr. Crusco. She is working. 

Mr. Halley. She is working ? 

Mr. Crusco. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Where does she work ? 

Mr. Crusco. She worked at the Packard Building. 

Mr. Halley. What does she do there ? 

Mr, Crusco. She cleans. 

Mr. Halley. She is a cleaning woman and she gave you $20,000 
in cash ? 

Mr. Crusco. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. That is a fine story ! 

Mr. Trasoff. Stranger things than that have happened, 

Mr, Halley, They appear only in fiction books. 



182 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Trasoff. Oh, no. They appear in the newspapers on the front 
page. 

Mr. Halley. This will, too, I assure you. 

Senator Kefauver. Let's get on. 

She has been a cleaning woman always, a long time ? 

Mr. Crusco. Well, yes. She has been doing it for about 12 years, 
to keep herself occupied. 

Senator Kefauver. How in the world would she ever get money 
like that being a cleaning woman ? 

Mr. Crusco. They saved between themselves. 

Senator Kefauver. Didn't you feel bad about taking that sort of 
money from them ? 

Mr. Crusco. It is not lost, sir. It is not lost. I have a case pend- 
ing in court. 

Senator Kefauver. Go ahead, Mr. Halley. I didn't mean to inter- 
rupt you. 

Mr. Halley. I was going to suggest to the chairman that there 
is no point in talking to this witness further. His last statement 
shows that his explanation of the source of his money is so ridiculous 
that none of it is entitled to any credence whatsoever. I think the 
witness should be given a chance to think about his testimony, and I 
recommend to the committee that we go on with the next witness, 
Mr. Samuel. 

Senator O'Conor. You are excused. 

Mr. Trasoff. You are through with us for today ? 

Mr. Halley. No ; you stay here, but wait outside. 

Senator O'Conor. It is customary that all witnesses be sworn. 
Raise your hand. In the presence of Almighty God do you swear 
that the evidence you will give in this matter will be the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Samuel. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD RUSSELL SAMUEL, PHILADELPHIA, PA., 
ACCOMPANIED BY WILLIAM A. ROBBINS, ATTORNEY, PHILA- 
DELPHIA, PA. 

Senator O'Conor. Will you state your full name. 

Mr. Samuel. Richard Russell Samuel. 

Senator O'Conor. And your address? 

Mr. Samuel. 2929 South Thirteenth Street. 

Senator O'Conor. Your business or occupation? 

Mr. Samuel. I work for the Daily News and I am also a personal- 
property assessor. 

Senator O'Conor. Counsel, you are representing him? 

Mr. RoBBiNS. William A. Robbins. My address is 812 Fox Build- 
ing, Philadelphia, Pa. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Samuel, do you know a man by the name of Louis 
Crusco ? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Samuel. I suppose about 20 years. 

Mr. Halley. When did you first meet him ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEROE 183 

Mr, Samuel. It is hard to recollect. He was a neighbor. I lived 
right around the corner from him. As a matter of fact, he lives about 
four doors away from where my father lives. 

Mr. Halley. Today? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Is that a nice part of town? 

Mr. Samuel. South Philadelphia, sir. 

IVIr. Halley. I don't know. 

Mr. Sa]muel. It is on Shunk Street. It is not the nicest part of 
South Philadelphia; no, sir. 

Mr. Halley. But South Philadelphia is a nice part of the city ? I 
.am 'asking Mr. Samuel. 

Mr. Samuel. I would say it is. 

Mr. RoBBiNS. It is the poorer part of the section, in order to save 
time. 

Mr. Halley. Your father lives there still ? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Are your families socially friendly ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. They are just neighbors. They are not 
socially friendly. 

Mr. Halley. You speak to him, though, on the street. 

Mr. Samuel. Oh, sir, in the last 3 or 4 years he has been friends — 
I met at the club every Tuesday and Thursday to see my constituents. 
There is a group of boys, six or seven of them and sometimes Mr. 
Crusco comes there and goes out to have a crab or a beer after we are 
all through with my work there. 

Mr. Halley. You are the leader ? 

Mr. Samuel. The leader of the thirty-ninth ward ; yes, sir. 

Mr. EoBBiNS. Republican ward leader. You don't mind if I inter- 
ject? 

Mr. Halley. I really do, if he is going to testify. 

How long have you been ward leader? 

]\Ir. Samuel. Approximately I guess 9 or 10 years, but since my 
father became mayor. 

Mr. Halley. Is Crusco a member of your club ? 

Mr. Samuel. Of that I am not sure. Possibly he might be, yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. But he comes around anyhow and sees you there? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you prior to 1948 had any business dealings 
with Crusco of any kind ? 

Mr. Samuel. I "have never had any business dealings with Crusco. 

Mr. Halley. Neither prior to nor since 1948 ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir ; never. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know a man named Reuben Young? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat is your relationship with him ? How long have 
you known him and in what respect? 

Mr. Samuel. The only way I know him, I met him I suppose two — 
I don't know the exact time. I met him several years ago. He has an 
office up on Third Street where he is in some kind of selling-used- 
machinery business. 

Mr. Halley. How long? Who introduced you to him? 

Mr. Samuel. Well, sir, I went there with Mr. Crusco when he met 
a Mr. Strunk, who is in the steel business. 



184 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Crusco introduced you to Strunk ? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. And also to 

Mr. Samuel. Mr. Young, yes, sir. I never knew him prior to that 
time. 

Mr. Halley. What was the subject of the discussions when Crusco 
introduced you to Strunk and Young? 

Mr. Samuel. Mr. Strunk represented the Strunk Steel Co., and was 
attempting to sell to Mr. Crusco some stock in the steel company and 
Mr. Crusco asked me whether or not I "would come up and listen to 
the story that he told and also whether I might myself be interested 
in buying some stock in it and that is the reason why I went up there. 

Mr. Haley. This is in 1948? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. Around 1948. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you go, to Young's office ? 

Mr. Samuel. To Young's office ; yes, sir ; on Third Street. 

Mr. Halley. How far is that from your office ? 

Mr. Samuel. Oh, well, they are at Third above Arch, and, of course, 
my office is at Broad and City Hall in that vicinity. So, therefore, 
it would be I suppose I would judge about a mile and a half, using 
squares about 8 or 10 blocks. 

Mr. Halley. Did you all meet there or did Crusco call for you ? 

Mr. Samuel. We all met there. 

Mr. Halley. I see. What was the discussion there ? 

Mr. Samuel. Mr. Strunk at that time had a very, very gorgeous 
proposition which he professed to tell Mr. Crusco about relative to 
having contacts with the Government, where they were going to build 
an elevator for aircraft carriers, and he had the contract, and they 
were going to get something like $126,000 for the job, and they would 
be able to make quite a bit oi money from it. 

Mr. Halley. You were simply financial adviser at the time? 

Mr, Samuel. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Was there any discussion of your participation in the 
transaction in any way ? 

Mr. Sx^^mu:el. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Was there any discussion of your going on the board 
of directors? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you at any time attend any meetings of the direc- 
tors of the Strunk Steel Co. ? 

Mr. Samuel. One. After Mr, Crusco found that the thing was in 
really bad shape, he asked me if I would accompany him one day to a 
board of directors meeting, and at that meeting they discovered that 
the thing was really in very bad shape and that he had been defrauded 
of all his money. 

Mr. Halley. Where was that meeting, at the offices of the company ?' 

Mr. Samuel. That was up in Eoyersford, I think, at the plant. 

Mr. Halley. Did you drive up there with Mr. Crusco ? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Halley. In your car or his ? 

Mr. Samuel. In his car. He was driving. 

Mr. Halley. What had been Mr. Crusco's business ? 

Mr. Samuel. Since the war I have known him to be selling war 
surplus, and then he went into the Strunk Steel Co., and then he sold 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 185 

insurance for this lady lawyer that he has, and now the business that 
he is in is machines, mechanical machines. 

Mr. Hauley. Before he went into the Strunk Steel Co., what was his 
business? 

Mr. Samuel. Sir, I wasn't close enough actually to know what it 
w^as. I could guess what it was if you want but I don't know whether 
jou w-ant that testimony. I never saw Mr. Crusco do anything of 
that nature. 

]\Ir. Halley. What would be your guess? 

Mr. Samuel. There have been rumors that he was in the numbers 
lousiness. 

Senator O'Conor. Wasn't he arrested for that quite a few times? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. 

Senator O'Conor. If you check the records, you would become in- 
formed of the facts. It is a matter of public knowledge on the 
records, and you a neighbor of his for all that length of time, living 
right in the neighborhood and he admittedly engaged in the numbers 
business over that period of time, and you would come here and want 
us to believe you didn't know it. 

Mr. Samuel. It isn't a question of not knowing, sir. A man has 
his business. That is his business as long as he doesn't involve me in 
it. I need not 

Senator O'Conor. We didn't say anything about your being in- 
volved in it. You are the first one suggesting your possible 
involvement. 

Mr. RoBBiNS. May I interrupt? He said that he heard that the 
man had formerly been in the numbers business. He knew nothing 
about him ever being arrested. You say it is a matter of common 
knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. A matter of public record. 

Mr. RoBBiNS. But the average layman as a neighbor doesn't go to the 
. bureau of police to check up. I am not testifying. 

Senator O'Conor. Counsel, suppose you desist, then. 

Mr. Halley. Do you want to be sworn in and testify ? 

Mr. Samuel. Don't talk. Bill. 

Mr. Halley. We will get along better if you desist. 

Mr. RoBBiNS. We will get along all right. I won't argue, because 
Mr. Samuel is here to testify to whatever you want. 

Mr. Halley. The committee allows counsel to be at these executive 
sessions only as a courtesy and expects the courtesy to be reciprocated. 

Mr. Samuel, you say that in 1948 you knew he had no regular busi- 
ness ; is that right ? 

Mr. Samuel. In 1948, the thing that I knew of him was he was 
selling surplus war materials. I knew that constantly evei-y day 
that is what he was doing. I couldn't say he was in the nmnbers 
business. If he did he never paid any attention to it. 

Mr. Halley. I thought you said on the record a little wliile back, 
: and I might be wrong, but the record will show, that he had in 1948 
not been active and you could guess what he was doing. 

Mr. Samuel. Prior to that time, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How much prior ? 

Mr. Samuel. You asked me prior to that time. I don't know how 
: much prior to that time. 



186 ORGAlSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMETICE 

Mr. Hallet. In any event, at the time of 1948 you knew fhar 
he at least had a reputation of having been in the numbers business,, 
is that right ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir, I wouldn't say so. In 1948 I knew he was 
trying to sell surplus materials. 

Mr. Hallet. But you knew that prior to that time 

Mr. Samuel. Prior to that time I had heard that he had been in. 
the numbers business and of my own personal knowledge, no, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How long prior to that time had you heard it? 

Mr. Samuel. I couldn't tell you the number of years. I don't 
remember when it was. It seems like it was a long time, yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. It stayed in your memory. You don't forget it. 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. I don't think I would. 

Mr. Halley. You remember it today, in fact ? 

You had no business dealings with him of any kind ? 

Mr. Samuel. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Halley. And no social dealings ? 

Mr. Samuel. Only what I told you, when they would come, maybe 
once or twice when the boys would go out to have crabs and beer after 
our meetings at the club. 

Mr. Halley. In a group ? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever go out with him alone, just you and he ?' 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you belong to any other organizations together 
besides that club ? 

Mr. Samuel. He is in the Shrine, but I am not in the same lodge 
that he is in. 

Mr. Halley. You are in different lodges in the Shrine ? 

Mr. Samuel. In the Blue Lodge, I think they call it. In the Shrine,, 
the Blue is all one. In the beginning in the Blue Lodges and if j-ou 
Avind up in the Shrine, the Shrine takes in all the lodges there in a 
certain area. 

Mr. Halley. You both belong to the Shrine ? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet at Shriner meetings ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. I very rarely attend them. I don't have 
time. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever seen him at such a meeting ? 

Mr. Samuel. I saw him at one meeting ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How long ago ? 

Mr. Samuel. I guess it has been a year ago. 

Mr. Halley. You certainly weren't very friendly up to 1948 then ; 
is that right ? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Halley. Was it unusual for you to interest yourself so deeply 
in his business as to go down to 

Mr. Samuel. You see, after 1948, being a leader of a ward of people, 
a great many people lean on you for a lot of things. I suppose that 
he thought that he would ask my advice for his business just like many, 
many other people come to me and ask my advice about a lot of 
things. Naturally we try to do everything we can to help everyone. 
That wouldn't be unusual for me to go there. 



ORGAilSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE OOMMEROE 187 

Mr. Halley. How much time did you spend just going over the 
figures ? 

Mr. Samuel. I suppose we spent a couple of liours. It was in the 
afternoon. 

Mr. Halley. Was there any discussion of the purchase price at 
that time ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir; I don't know anything about his financial ar- 
rangements. The only thing presented then was the financial condi- 
tion of the company plus the promises of the contract. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't you Avonder where he would get the money to 
buy a steel company? Or did he already have a Cadillac at that 
time ? 

Mr. Samuel. He probably had the Cadillac at that time. 

Mr. Halley. Do J'^ou remember ? 

Mr. Samuel. I don't remember, sir, but I imagine. If he didn't 
have one — I imagine he did at that time. 

Mr. Halley. Does he live in an elaborate house ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. It is not elaborate. 

Mr. Halley. A nice house ? 

Mr. Samuel. It is in the same row block. I don't know. I have 
been in it only once. I wouldn't say it would be elaborate ; no, sir. 

Mr. Halley. But a nice house ? 

Mr. Samuel. I would say a nice house. 

Mr. Halley. So you would think he might be able to raise $40,000 ? 

Mr. Samuel. Oh, yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You wouldn't put that as beyond his possible means ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you contribute any part of the money that was 
paid to Strunk Steel? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you withdraw any money from the Corn Ex- 
change Bank during the period between December 1948 and Februarv 
1949? 

Mr. Samuel. I have my checks for that period, and there is nothing 
that is unusual, no large amounts. They are here. 

Mr. Halley. Nothing in excess of a thousand dollars at a time? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. You gentlemen may go over those if you like. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have the statements? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir ; I went to get the statements, but you fellows 
stopped me from getting them. I called yesterday morning,' and 
the bookkeeper told me he would have them for me. I went down 
there at 3 o'clock and he said, "I am sorry, but I cannot give them," 
due to the fact that you folks had commandeered them and I couldn't 
get them. The only thing they did give me was the balance. 

Mr. Halley. There is no point in going through checks without a 
statement, because we can't tell if all the checks are there. You might 
have lost some. 

Mr. Samuel. The Corn Exchange Bank man is outside waiting to 
get in here. You can check my checks against those. I never at that 
time, I believe, had more than $500 in the Corn Exchange. 

Mr. Halley. Did you at any time have a safe-deposit box ? 

Mr. Samuel. I have one now. 

Mr. Halley. Do you keep any cash in it ? 

Mr. Samuel. No ; only bonds and insurance policies. 



188 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Have you at any time kept any cash in it ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Why did you allow your son to participate in this 
Strunk Steel business? 

Mr. Samuel. Well, sir, when Mr. Strunk was there, his boy and my 
boy went to the same school together, and he seemingly had taken a 
liking to my boy. He wanted to tell him, due to the fact that his son 
had been killed in the war recently, a year before or something of that 
nature, stating the fact that he liked my son, he wanted to teach him 
the steel business as he knew it. As a matter of fact, he was even 
going to live at his home up in Eoyersf ord when he brought him up 
there. 

Mr. Halley. This is Strunk's idea ? 

Mr. Samuel. Strunk's idea; yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. But your boy came in representing Crusco; is that 
right? 

Mr. Samuel. No. Strunk hired 

Mr. Halley. Didn't your boy have a power of attorney from 
Crusco ? 

Mr. Samuel. That I don't know, sir, unless they worked it out be- 
tween themselves. 

Mr. Halley. You knew what he was doing, didn't you? 

Mr. Samuel. I didn't know about any power of attorney. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't you know he went into the meeting with a 
power of attorney representing Crusco ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir; I don't remember that. 

Senator Kefauver. The records so show. 

Mr. Samuel. I didn't know that. You see, after they first started 
to hire the boy, he went to Royersford where he was supposed to go 
for a day or so, and then they told him that he would have to take 
care of a Philadelphia office which was the same place where Reuben — 
what's his name — is on Third Street — Reuben Young. So he and 
Mr. Crusco operated the Philadelphia office for them. What they 
did there — I never asked him, because, after all, it was their business 
and wasn't mine. I wasn't in it at all. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Miss Alma Arnold? 

Mr. Samuel. Only from the time Mr. Crusco hired her as a lawyer. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any business dealings with her in that 
time ? 

Mr. Samuel. None at all. 

Mr. Halley. Any insurance dealings? 

Mr. Samuel. None at all. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know anything about the order that the Phila- 
delphia Transit Co. gave to Strunk Steel? 

Mr. Samuel. I think my son called someone up there and got an 
order for it. Outside of that, I don't know of anything on it. I 
think he told me about it one night when he had come home from 
work that he had talked to someone there. 

Mr. Halley. You had nothing whatsoever to do with it? 

Mr, Samuel. Nothing, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Your son at that time was about 20 years old ? 

Mr. Samuel. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Halley. He just called somebody up at the Philadelphia Tran- 
sit Co. and succeeded in getting an order ? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE OOMMERCE 189 

Mr. Haixfa'. Do you (liink the fact that you were his father and 
that your father is nuiyor had anything to do witli that? 

Mr. Samuel. It possibly could have helped him; yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Was there some arrangement whereby you and your 
son were to get a commission for any orders obtained through him 
or through you? 

Mr. Samuel. None. 

Mr, Halley. No such arrangement whatsoever? 

Mr. Samuel. No such arrangement. 

Mr, Halley. Did you ever get any commission from Strunk Steel 
Co.? 

Mr. Samuel, Never, 

Mr. Halley. I have no other questions right now. 

Senator O'Conor, Very well. 

Senator Kefauver. I want to ask one or two questions. 

Where is your son now? 

Mr, Samuel. He is at home now, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. What does he do? 

Mr, Samuel. He w^as working — he worked for the Buick, selling 
automobiles after that, and now he is working selling Mercurys for 
the Palumbo Motors. 

Senator Kefauver. Palumbo Motors? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. I think he is going to leave there today and 
go up and sell Kaiser-Frazers. I think they have a better deal for him. 
He doesn't want to stay there. 

Senator Kefauver. I didn't understand just what it was he was 
supposed to do for the Strunk Steel Co, What was going to be his job ? 

Mr. Samuel, As I told you, sir, Mr. Strunk said he was going to 
teach him the business. He seemed to take a liking to him. His boy 
and my boy went to Valley Forge Military Academy in the very same 
school, and his son had just been killed in the war. Therefore, he 
professed to take a liking to him. 

Senator Kefauver. Was it going to be his job to get orders and 
business for the company? 

Mr. Samuel. Not at first, sir. When they sent him back to Phila- 
delphia, it was. They were supposed to get orders out of the Phila- 
delphia office. 

Senator Kefaltver. Where was he going to send him first? 

Mr. Samuel, First he was going to send him to Royersford, 

Senator Kefauver. Where? 

Mr. Samuel. Royersford. That is where the plant is. 

Senator Kefauver. How long was he going to stay there? 

Mr. Samuel. He was supposed to stay there and live at Mr. Strunk's 
home. 

Senator Kefauver. Royersford? 

Mr. Samuel. Royersford, Pa, 

Senator Kefal^ er. How far out of Philadelphia is that ? 

Mr. Samuel, That is about 30 some miles, I would imagine. 

Senator Kefauver. How^ long was he going to stay tliere? 

Mr. Samuel. He was going to stay there indefinitely and come home 
only on week ends. 

Senator Kefauver. Then after he learned the business was going to 
open up the office here 

68958—51 — pt. 11 13 



190 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Samuel. What lie was going to do Avas to teach him the business, 
to be like an assistant up there at the Royersford plant. 

Senator Kefauver. Then he was going to open up an office in the 
same buiJding that Reuben Young was in. 

Mr. Samuel. They did open offices there, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. They did open offices there, 

Mr. Samuel. Yes. 

Senator Kefauver. When did they open the office there? 

Mr. Samuel, I don't know the exact date, but I believe it was several 
weeks after they had started and after Richard had gone to Royersford. 

Senator Kefauver. So he got his apprenticeship training up at 
Royersford, and then he came on back and opened the office. 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. That is the Delaw^are Equipment Co., I believe, 

Mv. Samuel. Well, I don't think — yes; that is where Mr, Reuben 
Young is, but I think they had an office on the second floor. 

Senator Kefauver. I mean in the same building. 

Mr, Samuel. In the same building; yes, sir. 
' Senator Kefauver. I think the building belonged to the Strunk 
Steel Co., didn't it? 

Mr. Samuel, I never knew that, sir. I thought it was always Mr, 
Young's, 

Senator Kefauver, What was he supposed to do when he got in that 
office? 

Mr. Samuel. He and Mr. Crusco were supposed to go out and make 
sales for the Strunk Steel Co., obtain orders for them. 

Senator Kefauver. It has been stated here, just to be frank with 
you, that you and your son were supposed to get city business. 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. Certain types of fireplugs and certain other 
things that Strulilt Steel could make for the city of Philadelphia. 

Mr. Samuel. What would happen, that was in a conversation. They 
themselves — nobody can go to the city. If they could get any business 
from the city it has to be done through bids, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. What was the conversation about it ? 

Mr. Samuel. Notliing, with the exception that it would be a good 
thing if they could make the city buy these so-called — some kind of 
steel. I don't know what you call it. 

Senator Kefauver. Where was that conversation ? 

Mr. Samuel. That might have been at Young's, sir. I wouldn't 
recall the exact location. 

Senator Kefauver. You were there? 

Mr, Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. Was it at lunch somewhere? 

Mr. Samuel. It could have been at lunch; yes, sir. I think we went 
to lunch afterward. We went to lunch some time. It would be a good 
thing to get the city to buy, let me see what sort of things these are, 
I think I have them down here. Welded fireplugs. Instead of cast, 
they have some kind of welded plugs. Their idea was that the cast 
ones would break and the welded ones wouldn't. I think that was the 
theory which they propounded. 

Senator Kefaua'er. So that was one of the main things, they were 
going to get the city to buy these welded fireplugs instead of cast ones. 

Mr, Samuel. Yes, sir. That is wdiat they were going to try to do. 



ORGAlSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 191 

Senator Kefauver. How about trusses for the elevators or escala- 
tors? 

Mr. Samuel. I didn't know anything- about that. I think that might 
have been — you see the Strunk Steel Co. Avas supposed to have gotten 
business from the Otis Elevator Co., and that was one of the things he 
had told Mr. Crusco about when he originally went in. The Otis Ele- 
vator Co. was the one supposed to give them bids for building these 
elevators on these so-called secret plans he had for the big aircraft 
carriers. 

Senator Kefauver. How about steel paleates for concrete pipe. 
That is another thing he mentioned they were going to sell to the city. 

Mr. Samuel. They cannot sell anything, sir, unless it is bid and 
above a certain amount of money. 

Senator Kefauver. This thing for the Philadelphia Transit Co. 
was not bid ? 

Mr. Samuel. That is not the city, sir. That is a privately operated 
outfit. 

Senator Kefauver. It is privately operated ? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Senator KEFAmTER. So it was part of the idea, then — — 

Mr. Samuel. I suppose maybe Mr. Strunk had that idea in telling 
my boy he wanted him to come with him thinking he could use what- 
ever influence he had to sell things to people by using the name. That 
mig'ht have been his motive. 

Senator Kefauver. He frankly testified that you were going to 
help, too. 

Mr. Samuel. How could I help? I wasn't even in the business. 

Senator Kefauver. On account of your son. 

Mr. Samuel. I never saw the man only two or three times in my 
whole life. 

Mr. Halley. How did Strunk happen to meet your boy? 

Mr. Samuel. He was there with us at the meeting. 

Mr. Halley. Isn't that a peculiar thing, to take a boy to a meeting 
of that kind? 

]SIr. Samuel. No, sir. It so happened that Mr. Crusco — my boy 
was with me at the time and we went up there. The buying of this 
thing, the conversation of it had gone on previously maybe for a week 
or so while we were sitting around the table like w^e did on Tuesday 
and Thursday, that he wanted to buy this steel business. It is not the 
business, by the way, it is only a percentage of it. It wasn't his busi- 
ness at all. He was just part of the operation. 

Senator O'Coxor. Does it strike you as odd that he paid for it all 
in currency? 

Mr. Samuel. I knew nothing about the financial dealings. I wasn't 
there. I didn't know how^ he was going to pay it. I didn't even know 
the price of it. I didn't even know what he was going to pa}^ for it. 

Senator O'Conor, Your son w^as there? 

Mr. Samuel. My son was there. I wasn't. 

Senator O'Conor. Did your son report to 3^ou that it had been paid 
for in currency ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. My son wasn't there when the money was 
paid, either. 

Senator O'Conor. Haven't you ever heard it was paid for in cash? 



192 ORGAJSriZED CRIME IN INTERSITATE COMMERCE^ 

Mr. Samuel. Since that time I have but I understood Mr. Campbell 
or somebody insisted that it be paid for in currency. 

Senator O'Conor. Did you ever discuss that with the purchaser? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. He evidently didn't think it funny. I don't 
know why. 

Senator O'Conor. Didn't you ? 

Mr. Samuel. To me, yes, normally I think it would be funny. I 
don't know why 

Senator O'Conor. $34,000 being paid in cash — Counsel, I am not 
asking you. 

Mr. Samuel. What developed later was the fact that he was skin- 
ning him out of all this money. Possibly that was one motive that 
Mr. Campbell w^anted to have the money in currency. After all, what 
happened to it, after it was all over he took all the money and ihe 
thing went bankrupt. He knew at the time it was going bankrupt. 
Those gentlemen are under indictment now. 

Senator O'Conor. That wouldn't make any difference whether it was 
paid in cash or currency. 

Mr. Samuel. That is the way the man asked for it, sir, maybe. I 
don't know. 

Senator Kefauver. Is the company still running ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir ; it is bankrupt. 

Senator Kefauver. When did it go bankrupt ? 

Mr. Samuel. About a month or so after they had gotten Mr. 
Crusco's money. 

Senator Kefauver. It just folded up? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. How long did your son work for the company ? 

Mr. Samuel. Only about a month, sir. During that period of time. 

Senator Kefauver. How much more business did he get? Did he 
get much business? 

Mr. Samuel. That I don't know. I do know he had some business 
with the PTC, and I think they had some kind of roller or some kind 
of invention. They would roll lawns. He sold a couple of those. 
Outside of that, I don't know what other business he got for them. 

Senator Kefauver. Whom did he sell those lawn rollers to, do you 
know? 

Mr. Samuel. They ran an advertisement in the paper, I don't know 
whether it was the Inquirer or the Bulletin, in the classified section, 
where they could buy these rolls, and that is the way he sold the 
rollers. 

Senator Kefauver. Mr. Samuel, the record shows here that this 
Mr. Crusco has been indicted and been arrested and tried and con- 
victed at least twice and arrested about three or four other times. 

Mr. Samuel. He hasn't in the last 10 years. 

Senator Kefauver. For number-writing operations. Where is that 
record ? Do you have it there ? 

Mr. Hallet. I think it is right here. 

Senator O'Conor. Bead them off. 

Senator Kefauver. Not the whole thing. 

Mr. Halley. 1930, 1938, 1940, 1941, 1945. 

Senator Kefauver. In other words, this record would indicate that 
he is a well-known numbers operator and gambler. He admitted 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 193 

quite freely when lie was in here a little while ago that he was in the 
gambling business up to 1935 or 103G, when he was convicted, and had 
2 years of probation, and when his 2 yeai"s of probation were over he 
got back into the business and carried on until 194(). 

Mr, Samuel. I didn't knoAv enough then to answer that, sir. He is 
just a neighbor who lives down the street or around the corner. I had 
no dealings with him. 

Mr. Hallfa'. But you knew him well enough to let your son go into 
business Avith him. 

Mr. Samuel. That was after 1048, when the man was no longer in 
the numbers business, as far as I knew. 

Mr. Halley. It didn't worry you that he had been in the numbers 
business and was known to have been a gambler? 

Mr. Samuel. Look. If you find an individual who is very nice — 
Mr. Crusco is the type of man who wnll give you his shirt. He is very 
good to charity, very good to the neighbors. Very good to everyone. 
He does everything for everybody. 

Mr. Halley. How is he good to charities ? 

Mr. Samuel. Anything that would come up in charities. He will 
give to anyone. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat sort of donations does he make ? 

Mr. Samuel. I know that in the Shriners he has given the maximum 
that there is. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat is the maximum ? 

Mr. Samuel. To the Children's Hospital. Something like $150 or 
$175. 

Mr. Halley. Does he give that every year ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir; that is once that you give that. That buys 
you a life membership. 

Mr. Halley. To wdiat other charities does he contribute ? 

Mr. Samuel. People who come to him for help. He is always a man 
trying to help somebody. 

Mr. Halley. Can you explain that this man whose income tax 
shows practically no income at all, a pauper's situation, almost, drives 
around in a Cadillac, turns up with $40,000 and gives liberally to 
charities ? 

Mr. Samuel. I wouldn't know anything about his personal business. 
I am not close enough to the man to know what he makes or what he 
doesn't make. 

Mr. Halley. It is not a good-looking situation, you would agree 
to that. 

Mr. Samuel. Sir? 

Mr. Halley. It is not a good-looking situation. 

Mr. Samuel. That is right. It doesn't look good. 

Mr. Halley. Then he comes in here claiming he borrowed $20,000 
from his mother-in-law, who turns out to be a washwoman, working 
for a living. 

Mr. Samuel. Well, sir, I don't Imow his personal business. That 
is his problem, not mine. I never knew anything about that. 

Mr. Halley. But your son was his personal representative in this 
matter. 

Mr. RoBBiNS. We will have to object to that. He wasn't his personal 

representative. 



194 ORGAJSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTA'TE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. I am asking a question. Was your son his representa- 
tive? 

Mr, Samuel. AYliose representative? 

Mr. Halley. Crusco's. 

]\Ir. Samuel. Crusco's ? Not that I know, sir. 

Mr. Halley. The record shows it. 

Senator Kefauver. What is that now ? 

Mr. Halley. He says he doesn't know that his son was Crusco's 
personal representative. 

Mr. Samuel. AVliat they did, gentlemen, when they were in their 
office, maybe that was a situation which between them they developed — 
I wasn't in the office. I didn't have no part of it. I didn't know any- 
thing about it, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You don't look like the sort of father who would let a 
19-year-old son just wander through a business deal. 

Mr. Sajiuel. Look, Mr. Strunk was going to make him — was going 
to educate him. You would let your son go if he had an opportunity. 

Mr. Halley. I would like to know what was going on particu- 



larly- 

Mr. Samuel. Have you met Mr. Strunk, sir? You saw him in 
here ? Wouldn't he convince you he was a good man ? 

Mr. Halley. You apparently spent 4 hours talking about the 
finance. 

Mr. Samuel. About which ? 

Mr. Halley. About the company's finances. 

Mr. Samuel. Yes. A couple of hours ; not 4 hours. 

Mr. Halley. A couple of hours. 

Mr. Samuel. That is right, sir. He brought a financial statement 
stating that the company as of August had a certain $12,000 balance 
or something like that. And it was in good shape. As a matter of 
fact, it was in better shape then than when he was talking to Mr, 
Crusco. 

Mr. Halley. After spending that time you showed no further in- 
terest in what your son was doing and how he was handling himself ? 

Mr. Samuel. Mr. Strunk at that time said, "Look, I want to make 
your boy an engineer. I want him to know this business. I want 
him to grow to be vice president of this company. My boy was 19 
years old, just as you would do with your son if it looked like it was a 
good opportunity, you would let him go and let him try to have that 
opportunity. You are talking about Mr. Strunk. He looked like an 
honorable person. 

Mr. Halley. Did Mr. Crusco say I want to make him my personal 
representative ? 

JNIr. SA3IUEL. No, sir ; not at that time. 

Mr. Halley. And give him power of attorney ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir; not at that time. 

Mr. Halley. You never learned that ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley, Your son never told you that? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. Mr. Samuel, was there any conversation about 
your coming into this office in the Delaware Equipment Co. ? 

Mr. RoBBiNS. That is Mr. Youno-'s business. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMIVIERCE 195 

Senator Kefauvek. I mean in the buildino;. Anyway you were 
goino; to come into Mr. Strunk's ofHce 

Mr. Samuel. How could I? I have two jobs here. 

Senator Kefauver. Let me finish the question. You were going to 
come in this Strunk office and part time direct sales and look after the 
selling for this company? 

Mr. Samuel. Xo, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. In other words, were you going to conti'ibute 
something to it yourself, was there some conversation about that? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir; not that I remember. 

Senator Kefauver. You were to help out? 

]\Ir. Samuel. No, sir ; not that I would remember. 

Senator Kefauver. You would remember if there had been any? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kefaltver. You say there was no conversation to that effect ? 

]Mr. Samuel. They possibly might have thought of my son, not me. 

Senator Kefauver. No; Mr. Strunk has told us that part of the 
transaction was that you yourself were going to come into the Strunk 
office. 

Mr. Samuel. I can only answer that in this way : Mr. Strunk has 
developed to my mind to be possibly one of the biggest prevaricators 
I have ever met in my life. I can't answer that any other way other 
than that. For that reason, that is the reason why he is indicted now 
for doing the very same thing. 

Mr. Kalley. Do you consider Mr. Crusco a truthful man? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

Senator Kefauver. I wanted to ask, you seem to have two positions 
here. Just as a matter of curiosity, how do you divide your time 
between them? 

Mr. Samuel. I go into the Daily News in the morning and most of 
the stuif I cover is legal advertising, which takes me on into the city 
hall, and from the city hall I can spend most of my time there and 
cover most of the Daily News work during the luiich period. 

Senator Kefauver. You are in the advertising department of the 
Daily News? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kefalver. Are you the advertising manager? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. I handle the legal advertising. 

Senator Kefauver. You handle the legal advertising. 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Senator Kefauver. Do you work on a salary or how? 

Mr. Samuel. A salary, sir. 

(At this point Senator Kefauver resumed the chair.) 

The Chairman. AYliat is this job you have with the city ? 

Mr. Samuel. Personal property assessor. That is also a salaried 
job. 

The Chairman. They both seem to pay about $500 a month. 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir ; around that figure. 

Mr. Bobbins. That is each, sir. 

The Chairman. I say each pays about $500 a month. 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. When was the first time you heard about Mr. 
Crusco dumping out $40,000 in currency on the table? 



196 ORGANIZED CRIME YN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Samuel, I never heard of him dumping it out on the table, sir. 
The only thing I heard was after he had purchased the thing, that he 
had carried it up there in a big suitcase, and it was filled with money. 
I never heard of him dumping it. 

The Chairman. The dumping out on the table is inconsequential. 
When was it 3^ou heard that he carried up a suitcase full of mone}^? 

Mr. Samuel. I suppose several weeks after he and Miss Arnold' 
went up tliere. I don't know the exact date. 

The Chairman. How did you hear it ? Who told you ? 

Mr. Samuel. I suppose he did. I recollect that possibly he might 
have done that. 

The Chairman. Can you place the time of this one extended meet- 
ing and then had lunch later with Mr. Strunk and your son was there" 
at the same time; wasn't he? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And Mr. Crusco ? 

Mr. Samuel. Crusco ; yes. 

The Chairman. When was that meeting? 

Mr. Samuel. That meeting was a meeting which was in Rube 
Young's office, which was at the time that Mr. Strunk presented his 
plans and his financial statements. 

The Chairman. The record shows, I think, that the money was 
delivered and the transaction was closed out 

Mr. Samuel. After that. 

The Chairman. On January 27, 1947. 

Mr. Samuel. I suppose that meeting probably was about 3 weeks 
prior to that. I am only guessing now. 

The Chairman. So this would be about the first part of January 
1949. 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How much was your son going to be paid ? 

Mr. Samuel. I wish I had brought the stubs. He got paid. He 
was paid for about 3 weeks. I guess around $40, sir. 

The Chairman. Was he also going to get a commission ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Was he living at your house at that time, sir? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. He is not married ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. 

Tlie Chairman. I believe that is all, Mr. Klein. 

Mr. Klein. It should be said that Mr. Samuel remains under sub- 
pena. 

Mr. Samuel. Yes. 

Mr. RoBBiNS. That is right. And you will notify us by telephone 
or letter. 

Mr. Halley. I wonder if we shoukl complete the record and get a 
statement of your assets at this time. Do you mind ? 

Mr. Samuel. Not in the least. The Corn Exchange Bank is $3,- 
337.93. The one which I have in the savings fund, Philadelphia 
Savings Fund, is $9,255.97. 

Mr. RoBBiNs. The Philadelphia Savings Fund Society. 

The Chairman. Is that a savings bank? 

Mr. RoBBiNS. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCiE 197 

Mr. Samuel. ]\Iiolit I juUI, <2;ontlenieii, that $5,000 of thut^the 
Union Republican Club dispersed — tliat is it broke up and there were 
28 members of that and the 28 members divided what moneys there 
were, which amounted to around $-l:,0()4, which has been returned. 

Mr, RoBBiNS. Returned in the 1948 tax return. 

Mr. Samuel. 1948 taxes. Another $1,000 was endowment insurance 
which ran out. That is the reason that that figure is up to $9,200. 

Mr. Halley. Does your wife have any bank account? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir, 

Mr. Halley. What real estate do you have? 

Mr. Samuel. My home, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Where is that? 

Mr. Samuel. At 2929 South Thirteenth Street. 

Mr. Halley. What is the value of that ? 

Mr. Samuel. AVhen I purchased it or what it is worth now ? It is 
now worth 

Mr. Halley. What did you pay for it? 

Mr. Samuel. $7,000. 

Mr. Halley. Do you own any summer home other than that or any 
other real estate of any kind ? 

Mr. Samuel. No. 

Mr. Halley. Any stocks or bonds ? * 

Mr. Samltel. No, sir. Daily News stocks ; when we first started we 
used to take some part of our pay and buy stocks with it. They are 
absolutely worthless. 

Mr. Halley. You haven't bought any stocks ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Your wife? 

Mr. Samuel. Never. 

Mr. Halley, Do you ow^n an automobile? 

Mr. Samuel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What kind? 

Mr. Samuel. A Buick. 

Mr. Halley. What year, please? 

Mr. Samuel. It is a 1949, 1948 or 1949, something like that. 

Mr. Halley. Any other assets? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

Mr. Samuel. Wait a minute, I am not through. I have bonds. I 
buy a bond a month from the payroll plan at the Daily News. 

The Chairman. How^ big a bond ? 

Mr. Samuel. A $50 bond, sir. 

The Chairman. You haven't any money in any cash box or any- 
thing? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. 

The Chairman. No stocks or bonds on the exchange ? 

Mr. Samuel. No, sir. 

The Chairman. We can keep all these together. 

Mr. Samuel. All right, sir. Do you want this, too? You don't 
need this, do you ? 

The Chairman. No. 

Mr. Halley. No. 

The Chairman. The Corn Exchange $3,300 and the Philadelphia 
Savings Fund. 



198 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSfTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. EoBBiNS. That was as of yesterday. 

Mr. Samuel. We went down to get that yesterday afternoon. As 
a matter of fact, I called in the morning to get the statement and they 
told me they wonld have it ready for me and when I went down 
they said yon fellows had it and there was nothing I could do about it. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Samuel. 

Mr. Samuel. Thank you, gentlemen. 

The Chairman. I am Senator Kefauver. 

Mr, Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald is my name. 

The Chairman. Mr. Fitzgerald, do 3^011 solemnly swear the testi- 
mony you will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Fitzgerald. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD F. FITZGERALD, UPPER DARBY, PA., 
ASSISTANT COMPTROLLER, CORN EXCHANGE NATIONAL BANK 
& TRUST CO., PHILADELPHIA, PA. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Fitzgerald, you are an employee of the Corn Ex- 
change National Bank & Trust Co.? 

Mr. Fitzgerald. YeSf sir. 

Mr. Klein, In what capacity ? 

Mr. Fitzgerald. Assistant comptroller. 

Mr. Klein. Y^our full name is Richard F. Fitzgerald? 

Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. What is your address? 

Mr. Fitzgerald. IIG Oakley Road, Upper Darby, Pa. 

Mr. Klein. The bank was subpenaed to produce certain records in 
the matter of Richard Samuel. 

IMr. Fitzgerald. That is riglit. 

Mr. Klein. Do you have those records with you ? 

Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Will you produce them, please? 

(Documents produced.) 

Mr. Fitzgerald. I have photostats of a joint account and a safety 
de])osit box. 

Mr. Klein. You have bank statements? 

Mr. Fitzgerald. I have photostats of ledger cards and I have a 
photostat of one bank statement here. I have one bank statement 
with me. There are some checks there also. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Fitzgerald, a sum of money, a rather considerable 
sum has turned up which appears to have come from the Corn Ex- 
change Bank. It was deposited in another bank which informed the 
depositor that the money had apparently been withdrawn from your 
bank. Would there be any way of checking whether there was a large 
cash withdrawal on a particular date other than going through each 
individual account? 

Mr. Fitzgerald. That would be the only way. 

Mr. Halley. You don't make any independent record of very sub- 
stantial cash withdi-awals? 

Mr. Fitzgerald. Cash withdrawals; no sir; not now. We did at 
one time. 

Mr. Halley. Up to what time? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 199 

Mr. Fitzgerald. I don't know the date on that, sir. 

Mr. Halley. This wouhl be in excess of $10,000? 

Mr. Fitzgerald. Wliile that reg;uhition was in effect, we kept those 
records, but I don't know the (hites on those. 

Mr. Halley. That might be worth checking. 

Mr. Rice. About what year was that reguhition in effect? 

Mr. Fitzgerald. It must have ended about 2 years ago, I would say, 
I am not familiar with the regulation because I w^as in the service 
w^hen it went into effect, but it was still being followed when I re- 
turned. 

Mr. Rice. Would you know whether it was in effect in the spring 
of 1949? 

Mr. Fitzgerald. I wouldn't know, but I wouldn't think so. 

(Off the record.) 

Mr. Halley. I think we ought to keep these records. I don't know 
that there is any further licht you can throw on them. 

May I ask who is Teresa G. Hedges ? Do you know ? 

Mr. Fitzgerald. No', sir; I don't. 

The Chairman. This is the ledger account of Mr. Samuel. 

Mr. Fitzgerald. That is correct, sir; a joint account. 

The Chairman. What do vou have there about the safety deposit 
box? 

JNIr. Fitzgerald. We have the contract, and the signature card, and 
the access record. 

The Chairman. What does "R. S." mean on here? 

Mr. Fitzgerald. That indicates that Richard was the one that gained 
access or was in that day. 

The Chairman. All right, thank you, sir. 

Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Will you hold up your hand? Do you swear the 
testimony you will give this committee will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Young. I clo. 

The Chairman. The time is late and we want to get right down to 
the point here. 

TESTIMONY OF REUBEN YOUNG, DELAWARE EQUIPMENT CO., 
PHILADELPHIA, PA. 

Mr. Halley. What is your name ? 
Mr. Young. Reuben Young. 
Mr. PI alley. Your address ? 
Mr. Young. 124 North Third Street. 
Mr. Halley. "Wliat is your business ? 
Mr. Young. Machinery business, used machine tools. 
Mr. Halley. ^y\\i\t is the name of your business ? 
Mr. Young. Delaware Equipment Co. 
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Crusco ? 
Mr. Young. I would say abou't 3 or 4 years. 
Mr. Halley. How did you happen to meet him ? 
Mr. Young. I was introduced to Mr. Crusco by Captain Ragossa. 
;Mr. Halley. Who is Captain Ragossa ? 

]\Ir. Young. He is captain of the pier of the Delaware River pier. 
Incidentally, they are members of my lodge. 



200 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTA'TE COMMERCE. 

Mr. H ALLEY. What lodge, Masonic Lodge ? 

Mr. Young. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You also belong to the same political club as Mr. 
Crusco ? 

Mr. Young. No, sir. I don't belong to any. 

Mr. Halley. What is the cajjtain's nlime ? 

Mr. Young. Captain Michael Ragossa. 

Mr. Halley. Is he a city policeman ? 

Mr. Young. No, sir. I think his appointment is by the State. Cap- 
lain of the pier, to watch the boats that come in. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know what Crusco's business was? 

Mr. Young. No, I did not. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever learned ? 

Mr. Young. Like I told Mr. Rice before, when he first came down 
to my place I was a little doubtful as to what he was doing. I didn't 
know. He wanted to go into some sort of business. He asked me if 
I knew anything. I drew a report on him to find out what his busi- 
ness was, a Dun & Bradstreet report. 

Mr. Halley. That didn't show very nuich in the way of assets, 
did it? 

Mr. Young. No, it didn't. 

Mr. Halley. At that time did you know Strunk, of the Strunk 
Steel Co.? 

Mr. Young. Yes. I had met Strunk. 

Mr. Halley. Had Strunk approached you about his desire to get 
some new capital? 

Mr. Young. Yes ; you see the way it came about, he came in to me 
one day and he said that my corporal from the First AVorld War sent 
him in and he wanted to buy some machinery. I figured if my cor- 
poral sent him in, he must be all right, because this fellow is a very 
resi3onsible man of Royersford. So I sold him some machinery, took 
a little money down, and the balance on time. I took him to a friend 
of mine and got him about $8,000 worth of machinery, most of it on 
time. 

Mr. Halley. Did Strunk come to you first or did Crusco come to 
you first? 

Mr. Young. That is the way. After they get going they had some 
iron work business up in Royersford. He said to me one day, he said, 
"Reuben, do you know anybody who wants to go in business with me?" 
So I said to him, "What is the matter? You look like you have a 
prosperous business up there." 

He said, "Campbell and I don't get along, and if you know of any- 
body, I would appreciate it if you would tell me about it.'' 

I said, "Well, I happen to know a fellow who is interested in going 
into business, and I will introduce you to him," which I eventually 
did, I think, at a later period. 

Mr. Halley. You mean Crusco had come to you in the meantime 
or before that and asked you if you could find him a business? 

Mr. Young. Well, he had mentioned it. He used to come in occa- 
sinally to our place, and he wasn't doing anything. He had men- 
tioned that he would like to get into a business if we knew anything. 

Mr. Halley. Wasn't it a fact that you felt that Crusco was in the 
numbers business and ought to get out of it and get into a legitimate 
business ? 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 201 

Mr. Young, No; that is not tlie truth. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't you say that on a couple of occasions? 

Mr. Young. No. sir; I positively did not. As a matter of fact, 
several times Strunk said to me, "What business is Louis in?" I said, 
"You know, I don't know. He looks very prosperous." He had a 
big car. I think that was the reason why I drew the report at that 
time to try to find out. I never knew that he had been a numbers 
writer or was at that particular time. 

Mr. Halley. You have learned it since ? 

Mr. Young. I have heard it. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't know it at the time? 

Mr. Young. No, sir; positively not. 

Mr. Halley. What clid he ^ive you as his reason for wanting to 
invest money in a business? 

Mr. Young. He just wanted to get into business. I mean he wasn't 
doing anything at the time. 

Mr. Halley. Did you originally introduce him to Strunk? 

Mr. Young. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Mr. Halley. At that time, at the first meeting, was the subject of 
buying the company discussed? 

Mr. Young. Well, yes, I believe so. I think that was the occasion 
I introduced him. 

Mr. Halley. Was it on your premises? 

Mr. Young. Yes; down at my place. 

Mr. Halley. They both came and met? 

Mr. Young. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. In an office? 

Mr. Young. Yes ; in my place of business. 

Mr. Halley. You sat in a little room somewhere ? 

Mr. Young. Well, to be honest with you, I don't remember. We 
have an office downstairs. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you talk ? 

Mr. Young. We spoke in the office. 

Mr. Halley. At that time the proposition was put up? 

Mr. Young. Yes; I told him, here is a man who comes well recom- 
mended to me. I sold him some machinery. I think he has a pros- 
perous business. As a matter of fact, I think he showed me a state- 
ment where they had made about $24,000 up to August, which, to my 
mind, showed the way they were going, they would make at the rate 
of about $40,000. Later on it proved to be a phoney statement. 

Mr. Halley. At this first meeting what was agreed? 

Mr. Young They would go up and look at the place. I think a week 
or so later we all went up there and we looked at the place, to see what 
business they were doing. He was doing a structural-steel business 
and also making parts for escalators, moving stairs. 

Mr. Halley. You are pretty sure at this first meeting you had to 
introduce Strunk to Crusco? They didn't know each other? 

Mr. Young. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You went right into this business deal, is that right? 

Mr. Young. I think there was a question of maybe a month or a 
couple of months. 

Mr. Halley. At the first meeting the deal was put up, proposed? 

Mr. Young. It was mentioned. You see, it came about this way: 
Strunk said he was negotiating for a big contract, a $600,000 deal. 



202 ORGANIZED CRIME! IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

He said keep it quiet, because that way we will get Campbell out. 
Don't mention anything to Campbell. Then I think he started to run 
to New York, up and back, and he would call Crusco, and one time in 
particular he called and said. he had a $600,000 deal signed, sealed, 
and delivered. That was supposed to have been a secret because the 
Government and Uncle Sam was not supposed to let it out! It later 
turned out to be a great fake. 

Mr. Halley. At what point did Samuel get brought into the deal ? 

Mr. Young. What I say about Samuel is only hearsay. I think at 
a later date he took Samuel and his boy up to look it over. 

Mr, Halley. Were you present when tlie deal was closed ? 

Mr. Young. No. 

Mr. Halley. Were you present at the purchase ? 

Mp. Young. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear that the purchase was made with 
cash money? 

Mr. Young. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. When did you hear that ? 

Mr. Young. I heard that when he was gone up to pay for it. It 
w^as supposed to have been a sort of secret, the way I understood it, 
and they insisted on cash. Campbell insisted on cash. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear Campbell insist on cash? 

Mr. Young. No; I didn't. 

Mr. Halley. Who told you that ? 

Mr. Young. The only way — Crusco told me that. I said to him 
lie must be foolish to take cash up. He said they insisted on it. Here 
is what happened — a little thing I would like to bring out : I knew 
Campbell before I knew Strunk. I knew he had been a businessman 
up in Pottstown. He had a pie place. When Strunk mentioned to 
me he wanted to buy Campbell's interest out, I called Campbell and 
said, "Lou. Strunk is talking about getting somebody to buy your 
interest. I don't want to hurt you. Is it all right for me to introduce 
him to this man?" 

He said, "Yes"; so I said, "How is that business? Is it a good 
business?" 

He said, as a matter of fact, "Why don't you buy it, Rube?" 

T said, "If it's such a good business, Lou, why are you selling it?" 

He said, "I want to retire." He says, "I bought a place at Beach 
Haven or something." As a matter of fact, he gave me the address, 
and to come and see him. Then they started negotiating, and that is 
when they took the money up there. 

Later on, about a month or two afterward, I found out that they 
were broke; they had no money; the money that he had given w\as 
gone. I called Lou again. 

"Lou, what did you do to this friend of mine that I introduced to 
jou ?" I said, "The guy tells me you are broke." 

He said, "Wliat is he doing, looking for trouble? If he is looking 
for trouble, I will give him plenty of trouble.'' 

I said, "A guy like that ought to be ridden out of town on a rail." 
So his money was gone. 

Mr. Halley. Did Cruso tell you it was his own money or did he tell 
yon he had to borrow the money? 

Mr. Young. He insinuated he had to borrow the money. He said 
lie didn't have it and had to borrow the money. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 203 

Mr, Halley. Did he insinuate lie liud to borrow it all ? 

Mr. Young. I don't know. As a mattei- of fact, alter I had intro- 
duced him, then they started negotiating themselves. I had very little 
to do with it. 

Mr. Halley. Have you seen Crusco from time to time since? 

Mv. Young. I haven't seen him for quite a while. He came in for 
a while, and then gradually he disappeared. 

jMr. Halley. Have you ever met Samuel ? 

Mr. Young. Yes. I would say I have met Samuel maybe three or 
four times in my whole life. 

Mr. Halley. After this deal? 

Mr. Young. Yes. He introduced me to him 1 think the time the 
negotiations were going to be made to go up to Royersford. 

Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to Samuel ? 

Mr. Young. I think the boy, as I recall it, Crusco's son introduced 
me to him. 

Mr. Halley. You mean to young Samuel? 

Mr. Young. To young Samuel. He was supposed to get a job or 
something up there. I just don't remember wdiere he met, but I think 
it was in connection with the telegram. 

Mr. Halley. Were you told why young Samuel would get the job ? 

Mr. Young. Was I told? 

]Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Young. No. 

Mr. Halley. Why was their office going to be in your place of 
business? 

Mr. Young. As a matter of fact, they appreciated the fact that I 
brought them together. I rented them an office in my place for $100 
a month. I had an office on the second floor. 

Mr. Halley. What was that to be used for ? 

Mr. Young. To be used as their local office. You see the plant is 
about 40 miles from here. There was a lot of business to be secured 
in the Philadelphia area. 

JMr. Halley. They were going to try to get business in the city of 
Philadelphia, weren't they? 

Mr. Young. Yes, sir. They paid me one month's rent and then 
they owed me for about three. Finally they sent me some aluminum, 
I think, to cover wdiat they owed me. 

Mr. Halley. Did young Samuel have as his job to get the business 
here in Philadelphia? 

Mr. Young. He was a bookkeeper or something. Yes, he tried to 
get business for them. He kept calling. 

Mr. Halley. Who was in this office in your place? 

Mr. Young. Mr. Crusco was there and young Samuel, and then 
Strunk would come in occasionally. 

Mr. Halley. Young Samuel and Crusco were trying to get business 
around Philadelphia, is that right? 

Mr. Young. Right. 

Mr. Halley. Were they trying to get city business ( Was that ever 
discussed ? 

Mr. Young. I don't know\ 

Mr. Halley. Business from the city of Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Young. I don't know\ I will be honest with you, i don't know. 
I know they got an order from the RPT. As far as the city goes, I 
don't know. 



204 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. That is all, thank you very much. 

The Chairman. Wasn't there a meeting at one time where you had 
lunch with these people, Samuel senior and young Samuel and Crusco 
and yourself and Miss Arnold, the lawyer ? 

Mr. Young. No. I don't recall having lunch. 

The Chairman, Didn't they meet at your place one time, all of 
them ? 

Mr. Young. The young fellow did, the boy did. As a matter of 
fact, the first time w^e went there, Senator, Mr. Strunk, I believe, and 
Mr. Campbell took us to some country club to have lunch, not the old 
man. I don't remember ever having lunch with them. 

The Chairman. Wasn't the matter discussed that if we got the boy 
in there, they could get the business of the city ? 

Mr. Young. That may have been. Senator. 

The Chairman. You heard it discussed, didn't you? 

]\Ir. Young. No, I didn't. They had their office. You see, my office 
was downstairs. Theirs was upstairs. We didn't spend too much 
time with them. I mean on the face of it it would have been a good 
idea. 

The Chairman. On the face of it, everybody understood that was 
the idea. 

Mr. Young. Sure. After all, they were going to try to get business 
I would say so, but as a matter of fact they went broke right afterward. 

The Chairman. You understood that was the idea, that they were 
getting the boy in and getting an office down here and they were going 
to try to get city business. 

Mr. Young. No, that wasn't the thing. Senator. May I tell you 
what really brought the deal on ? In fact, he said he had this big 
contract, $600,000 contract from these people. 

The Chairman. I am talking about moving the office down here. 
You see they hadn't had an office here before, had they ? 

Mr. Young. No. I rented them an office. 

The Chairman. They were renting an office down here from you ? 

]Mr. Young. Right. 

The Chairman. The idea of that was to try to get some business 
here is Philadelphia, wasn't it ? 

Mr. Young. That is right. 

The Chairman. Who were they going to get business from? 

Mr. Young. From the structural iron. You see, what they did,, 
building was going to start to coming up then, in 1948, and they dicL 
iron work, structural work. I don't think 

The Chairman. They were going to sell some new sort of fire plugs,, 
too, weren't they ? 

Mr. Young. Yes ; they had an idea on some fire plugs. 

The Chairman. That was going to be city business? 

Mr. Young. I wouldn't doubt it a bit. 

The Chairman. How about some of these things on concrete? 

Mr. Young. Rollers. 

The Chairman. Concrete rollers? Wasn't that going to be sold 
to the city ? 

Mr. Young. No; I don't think so. That was more like for a lawn. 
They took a piece of pipe and filled it with cement. 

The Chairman. Didn't they have some ends on the concrete pipes? 

Mr. Young. I don't know. Senator. They didn't last that long. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 205 

The Chairman. How iiuich rcMit did they ]:>ay you a month? 

Mr. YoFNG. They Avere su])p()sed to pay $100 a month. 

Mr. Halley. When did they <zo into your phice? 

Mr. Young. I thiidi ri^hl after they i)assed the m(mey. I think 
rioht after Crusco o;ave him the money. 

Mr. Halley. Did young- Sanuiel go right into that office in your 
phice ? 

Mr. Young. Yes ; he stayed there for a little while. 

The Chairman. Did he spend any time up at the ])lant? 

Mr. Young. Very little. He would go up. I think he went up 
on payday. 

Tlie Chairman. The advantage to you was that you sold the steel 
company. 

]Mr. YoLfNG. The machinery. 

The Chairman. Of course, if they could get more business, you 
would get more business? 

Mr. Young. That is right. As a matter of fact, just like I told you, 
I got into an awful lot of trouble. They couldn't pay. Out of appre- 
ciation for what I did before they started battling they gave me some 
mei-chandise to cover my end, which I in turn paid the fellow I 
guaranteed the account for. 

The Chairman. It has been testified here that you said that Crusco 
was in the numbers business, but you thought he was a pretty good 
fellow and you would like to see him get out. 

Mr. Young. Senator, that isn't so. As a matter of fact, I was 
doubtful myself. I couldn't find out what he did. That is what 
prompted me. Strunk said to me a couple of times what does Louis 
do. What is his business. I said I don't know. That is why we drew 
the report. 

The Chairman. That is all. Anything else ? 

Mr. Halley. Do you sell any stuif to the city ? 

Mr. Young. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever ? 

Mr. Young. Never. 

Mr. Halley. It was pretty well understood that the purpose of 
having young Samuel here was because his grandfather was the mayor, 
wasn't it? 

Mr. Young. No, I don't think so. The way I understand it, I think 
they are prettv good friends, Crusco and Mr. Samuel. I think the 
boy was just at the age where they wanted to put him some place. It 
could have been in the automobile business, which he eventually went 
into. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you get the impression that Crusco and 
Samuel — you mean the father now? 

Mr. Young. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Were good friends ? 

Mr. Young. I had occasion to call them a couple of times. 

Mr. Halley. Call whom ? 

Mr. Young. I had to call Crusco. You see, I would call his home 
and he had told me to reach him at the club. They had a club down- 
town some place. I believe they are either members of tlie same club 
or they are pretty friendly. 

Mr. Halley. Who told you they were pretty friendly ? 

68958 — 51 — pt. 11 14 ' 



206 ORGANIZED CRIMEA IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. YouxG. They were associated. If you call them at the club 
and they are there, I would put two and two together. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever go out to the club with them? 

Mr. Young. I went down there one time before this lawsuit. You 
know they had (-ampbell arrested and Strunk arrested. We went 
down — I went down there one time to see them. I was supposed to be 
a witness in the case. 

Mr. Halley. To see whom ? 

Mr. Young. To see Crusco. He was at the club and Samuel was 
there. 

Mr. Halley. Samuel helped Crusco in this deal, is that right? 

Mr. Young. He was very friendly with him, I will tell you that. 

The Chairman. Has Samuel been arrested too 2 

Mr. Young. Samuel ? No. 

The Chairman. No ; Campbell. 

Mr. Young. Yes; Campbell was held. He has been indicted. As 
a matter of fact, there was supposed to have been a trial, this is the 
second postponement they got. It was postponed. It was supposed to 
have been this week, Monday, I believe. 

The Chairinian. All right. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Rice has a question. 

Mr. Rice. Going back to Crusco, you knew him for several years 
and you knew he had a Cadillac ? 

Mr. Young. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Didn't you know what he did ? 

Mr. Young. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Didn't you have the impression that he in going into this 
business was going legitimate? 

Mr. Young. There might have been in my mind at that time, but I 
wasn't sure what his business was. I couldn't find out. I know he 
wanted to go into something. 

Mr. Rice. Whatever it was he was in, he wanted to get into some- 
thing legitimate? 

Mr. Young. Right. The way he told me he had 10 or 8 children 
and he was looking for something you see. When the o])portunity 
came along, we are not in that business. When I made the deal we 
didn't get any commission or anything. I was just trying to get two 
people together. Strunk was a customer. He was looking for some- 
thing to do. I am sorry I ever saw them. 

Mr. Rice. Thank you. 

The Chairman. All right, thank you, sir. That is all. 

Mr. Young. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Mr. Taylor, will you hold up your hand. Do you 
solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee will be the 
whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Taylor. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF HEEMAN TAYLOR, PHILADELPHIA, PA. 

Mr. Ivi.ein. What is your full name ? 

Mr. Taylor. Herman Taylor. 

Mr. Halley. And your address? 

Mr. Taylor. 1901 Walnut Street, Philadelphia. 

Mr. Halley. In what business are you ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMISIERCE 207 

Mr. Taylor. Boxiii<>- promoter. 

Mr. Halley. How l()n<r have you been in that business? 

Mr. Taylor. Over 40 years. 

Mr. Halley. Have you any otlier business? 

Mr. Taylor. Not noAv ; no, sir. 

The Chairman. You have been in the boxing promotion business 40 
years ? 

Mr., Taylor. Since I was 13 years old, I am (io now, but I have been 
promoting- boxing for over 40 years. 

Mr. Halley. What other businesses have you had ? 

Mr. Taylor. About IC or 18 years ago I had an interest in a phice 
in Atlantic City with a man by the name of Phil Barr. 

]Mr. Halley. What kind of business was that? 

Mr. Taylor. It was a gambling house. 

Mr. Halley. What was the name of it ? 

Mr. Taylor. It had no name. 

Mr. Halley. Do you remember the location ? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes. No. 4 South Missouri Avenue. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any other gambling business? 

]Mr. Taylor. I worked for the Alaryland Athletic Club. 

The Chairman. How long did this go on in Atlantic City? 

Mr. Taylor. I would say maybe 7 or 8 years. 

The Chairman. What was your partner's name? 

Mr. Taylor. Philip J. Barr. He is dead now. 

Mr. Halley. What did you do at the Maryland Athletic Club? 

Mr. Taylor. I was employed there to cover the race tracks in the 
fall and in the spring of the year. 

Mr. Halley. Who paid you? 

Mr. Taylor. James A. LaFontaine. 

Mr. Halley, How did you happen to meet LaFontaine? 

Mr. Taylor. He is an old friend of our family's for all of 40 years. 

Mr. Halley. Did you need a job at that time? 

Mr. Taylor. The boxing business was very bad; yes, sir; at that 
particular time. 

The Chairman. When was this? 

Mr. Taylor. Sir? 

The Chairman. When was this ? 

Mr. Tayi.or. I would say about maybe 12 or 18 years ago. 

Mr. Halley. Did you go down to see LaFontaine? 

Mr. Taylor. No; he was passing through Philadelphia, and he 
offered me the job. 

Mv. Halley, You took care of the horse book there ? 

Mr. Taylor, No, no. I covered the race tracks, I say. I sent busi- 
ness to the place. 

Mr. Halley. I see. Did you function in the place at all ? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What would vou do covering the race track? 

Mr. Taylor, The people that I would meet that I thought would 
like to play, I would talk to them about going there. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever in the place? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you play there ? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 



208 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Willie Weisberg there? 

Mr. Taylor. In the place ? No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see him around the place? 

Mr. Tayeor. I can't say that I did ; no, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Herman Stromberg there? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. If either of them said they saw you there would they 
be telling an untruth? 

Mr. Taylor. Tluit they saw me in the place? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Taylor. It is possible that they could have seen me in there and I 
didn't see them, because it is a very large place. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever there together? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Hallp:y. Either Weisberg or Stromberg? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You are sure of that? 

Mr. Taylor. Definitely. 

Mr. Halley. What other gambling businesses have you either been 
in or been connected with ? 

Mr. Taylor. Never nothing else in my life. 

Mr. Halley. Nothing else of any kind, nature, or description? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

The Chairman. How long were you with Jimmie LaFontaine down 
there ? 

Mr. Taylor. I think about 13 years or more. 

The CiiATRMAN. You worked w^ith him 13 years ? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes ; on and off. They weren't open all the time, sir. 

The Chairman. Up until when did you work with him ? 

Mr. Taylor. Until they closed 3 years ago last September — that 
last month, rather. 

Mv. Halley. Did you have any interest in the Green Oaks ? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know what Green Oaks is ? 

Mr. Taylor. I knew that Mr. LaFontaine owned a property called 
Green Oaks, but what they did there I had nothing at all to do with. 

Mr. Halley. That was at Silver Hill, Md., was it not? 

Mr. Taylor. That I couldn't honestly answer. 

Mr. Halley. Were you never in Green Oaks ? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You had no interest whatsoever in it ? 

Mr. Tayi.or. Never ; no, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever convicted of a crime ? 

Mr. Taylor. I was never arrested in my life for anything. 

Mr. Halley. Never arrested at all ? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Were you arrested in 1922 with Doc Cooch ? 

Mr. Taylor. Never. 

Mr. Halley. For operating a gambling establishment at 5, South 
Missouri Avenue, Atlantic City? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir; that is not true. 

Mr. Halley. You did operate that gambling establishment, did 
you not ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME" IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 209 

Mr. Taylor. I had an interest in tlie place. I think the address, you 
say 5. It could have been 5. I thought it was 4. 

Mr. Halley. Possibly. 

Mr. Taylor. I may be wrong. I was never arrested ; no, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did Doc Coocli have any connection with it? 

Mr. Taylor. He worked there and had a small interest. 

Mr. Halley. You say 3'ou were never arrested? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. I am not asking if you were convicted. Were you 
arrested ? 

Mr. Taylor. I was never arrested in my life for anything; no, sir. 

The Chairman. Have you got the record here ? 

Mr. Halley. We have a memorandum on it. We don't have an 
actual record. He may be right. 

Mr. Taylor. I am definitely right. Senator. I was never arrested 
in my life. 

Mr. Halley. That is a strong and definite statement. 

Mr. Taylor. That is exactly right ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You have never been indicted ? 

Mr. Taylor. Never. 

Mr. Halley. You know Cappy Hoffman? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, I have known the boy since I was a kid. He came 
down to the Atlantic City place as a preliminary boxer. I think he 
fought one fight at the old Walsh Green. That was a boxing club 
down there. 

Mr. Halley. TVHiere are you promoting boxing today ? 

Mr. Taylor. I am out of business. I am just about going back. I 
have been out of business for 2 years. 

Mr. Halley. On what have you been living? 

Mr. Taylor. I have earned pretty good money when I was operating. 

Mr. Halley. What was the last fight promoting you did? 

Mr. Taylor. The 14th of December 1948. 

Mr. Halley. ^Vliat fight did you promote ? 

Mr. Taylor. An exhibition contest between Arturo Godoy and 
Joe Louis. 

Mr. Halley. Wliere was that ? 

Mr. Taylor. Convention Hall here in Philadelphia. He is from 
Chile. . ^ 

Mr. Halley. During all that time you also continued working for 
Jimmie Fontaine ? 

Mr. Taylor. Those yeai^ when they were open. They weren't open 
regularly, sir. 

Mr. Halley. If you were making good money in the fight business, 
why did you 

Mr. Taylor. I took that job at that particular time, and I welcomed 
it because the boxing business when I went down there was not so 
good. 

Mr. Halley. You keep that job on even though the boxing business 
improved? 

Mr. Taylor. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Why did you do that? 

Mr. Taylor. To earn money, of course. 



210 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIVIIMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Did it pay very well ? 

Mr, Taylor. Truthfully, I will tell you, I never had any stipulated 
arrangements with Mr. LaFontaine. If they had a good season, he 
would take very good care of me, and if the season was not so good, I 
would get naturally a little bit less. 

Mr. Halley. What is the most you ever got from LaFontaine in 
any season ? 

Mr. Taylor. In any one year I would say $20,000. 

Mr. Halley. And the least ? 

Mr. Taylor. It was very little, you know, sometimes maybe about 
$4,000, $5,000 maybe. 

Mr. Halley. Your pay depended on what he earned rather than 
on what you produced ? 

Mr. Taylor. That is right. Well, I wouldn't particularly say that. 
He was kind of a generous old gentleman. He treated everybody like 
that who worked for him. 

Mr. Halley. There was no effort to check up on what you produced ? 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, no, no. 

Mr. Halley. You were just in on the profits; is that right? 

Mr. Taylor. I wouldn't put it that way, sir; no. I wouldn't say 
I was in on the profits. It was just up to him. If he felt like being 
a bit more generous, he usually was that way. 

Mr. Halley. Did he pay you by cash or in check? 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, no. They never had any check transactions in 
those places. 

Mr. Halley. What would you do, go clown there and get paid off, or 
did he come up here? 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, no ; I would be down there. 

Mr. Halley. Would you say that in no year it was never in excess of 
$20,000? 

Mr. Taylor. I don't think I ever received over $20,000 in one year 
in my lifetime in the time I was there; no, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever give any part of what you received to 
anyone else ? In other words, did you split your take from the Mary- 
land Athletic Club with anyone else ? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. ''"'^v-.^.s "^' '; 

Mr. Halley. At no time ? ' "^^^ 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What was the net profit to the Louis-Godoy fight? 

Mr. Taylor. It was a loss. 

Mr. Halley. It was a loss ? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What was the net result of your fight promoting dur- 
ing the year 1948 ? 

Mr. Taylor. I lost money that year. I would say, if I did make 
any money, it was very, very little. 

Mr. Halley. What was your last profitable year in the fight-pro- 
motion business? 

Mr. Taylor. That is the last year I prom.oted, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What was your last profitable year? 

Mr. Taylor. The big year I would say 1946, 1946 or 1947. I for- 
get which. That was the year we had Williams and Montgomery 
fight. That was a big year. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 211 

Mr. Halley. AYhat was your net that year ^ 

Mr. Taylou. I think I paid an income that year in tlie neighborhood 
of $50,000. 

Mr. Hallky. Tliat much tax or tliat much income^ 

INIr. Taylor. Oh, no; not that nuich tax. About lialf of that. I 
think the Government got $!25.000. 

Mr. Halley. And you got $ii5,000? 

Mr. Taylor. Don't liokl me to that to the penny or to the doUar. 
It is in that neighborliood. I woukl say that I earned in that year 
between both phices, boxing and that place, aroinid $50,000 or a little 
more; and the Government got, I would say, around $20,000 or 
$25,000 in taxes. 

I\Ir. Halley. What was your income in 1946? 

Mr. Taylor. Tliat is the year I am talking about, I think. 

Mr. Halley. How about 11)45? Did you have a good year then? 

Mr. Taylor. Fair, I would say. 

Mr. Halley, Did you have any records here of your income? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. May we have them, please? 

The Chairman. Are they outside? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Can somebody get your brief case? 

Mr. Taylor. There is no brief case. I have them wrapped up in a 
paper. 

Mr. Halley. In an}^ event, since 1946 you have been living on your 
accumulated savings? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have a bank account in 1946 ? 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you still have? 

Mr. Taylor. A personal account ? 

Mr. Halley. Any kind of account. 

Mr. Taylor. I had a personal account at the Pennsylvania Co. 

Mr. Halley. In what city ? 

Mr. Taylor. Philadelphia, here. And I had an account at the 
Broad Street Trust Co. for the boxing business. 

Mr. Hali^ey. You separated them ? 

Mr. Taylor. I didn't want to keep the two together. 

Mr. Halley. Do you still have your account in the Pennsylvania 
Co.? 

Mr. Taylor. I closed it when I quit in 1948, but I just reopened it 
again because I am going back to work again and I wanted to keep 
my personal account separate from the boxing account. 

Mr. Halley. Between 1948 and today did you have any bank 
account ? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Where? 

Mr. Taylor. Broad Street Trust Co. 

Mr. Halley. You say that is for the business ? 

Mr. Taylor. But I closed that out. I wasn't in business at the time. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you have a bank account between 1948 and 
today? 

Mr. Taylor. Between 1948 and todav at the Broad Street. 



212 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Which is the Broad Street? Is that your personal 
account at the Broad Street? 

Mr. Taylor. Xo, the Pennsylvania Co. 

Mr. Halley. When did you close out the Pennsylvania ? 

Mr. Taylor. When I stopped operating boxing in 1946, because I 
used that account at the Broad Street Trust Co. for my personal use 
because I was out of business. 

Mr. Halley. I see. And you have kept the Broad Street account 
ever since ? 

Mr. Taylor. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any other bank account ? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes. I keep a little bank account in Atlantic City for 
petty bills for household. Mrs. Taylor lives down there, you know, 
to pay gas and electric bills. 

Mr. Halley. In what bank do you keep that ? 

Mr. Taylor. The Boardwalk National Bank. 

Mr. Halley. Did you keep any sums of cash ? 

Mr. Taylor. I don't have no cash. 

Mr. Halley. You don't have a safety deposit box ? 

Mr. Taylor. I do. I didn't say I didn't. Of course I do. 

Mr. Halley. Where do you have that ? 

Mr. Taylor. At the Broad Street Trust Co. 

Mr. Halley. Do you keep any cash in that ? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever ? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes ; at times I have had cash in there, but there is no 
cash thei-e now\ There hasn't been any cash for quite a little while. I 
haven't had any cash to put in there. 

Mr. Halley. What is the largest amount of cash you ever had in 
there ? 

Mr. Taylor. Not too much, not too much. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Al Capone? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Halley. When did you first meet him? 

Mr. Taylor. I met him in Atlantic City in D'Agastino's home, all 
of maybe 20 years ago. 

Mr. Halley. And did you keep up an association with him? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever receive him in j^our home ? 

Mr. Taylor. Never in my house ; no, sir. 

Mr. Halley. He never came to your house ? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you see Al Capone when he came out of jail and 
after he served a sentence for carrying a gun in Philadelphia? 

Mr. Tayix)R. I saw him on his way home to Chicago; yes. 

Mr. Halley. What were the circumstances? 

Mr. Taylor. Everybody went to see him. Nothing in particular, 
just to say good-bye or something like that. 

Mr, Halley. Where did you see him ? 

Mr. Taylor. I think at the North Philadelphia Station. 

Mr. Halley. Did he come to Atlantic City on that occasion? 

Mr. Taylor. No ; lie went riglit to Chicago. 

The Chairman. When was this? 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 213 

Mr. Halley. 11);5(), wasirt it? 

Mr. Taylor. It could be. 

Mr. Halley. ISIaroh 1930. 

Mr. Taylor. I am not positive, but it could be. That is about right, 
I would say. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have occasion to write to Capone wliile he was 
in jail? 

Mv. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Your name appears on the list. 

Mr. Taylor. That is not true. I could possibly have sent him a 
Christmas card, if you call that writing. I would do that. 

Mr. Halley. As a matter of fact, you appear twice on this mailing 
list. 

Mv. Taylor. It could have been Christmas cards. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever write him from Miami Beach? 

Mr. Taylor. Not that I recall; no sir. 

Mr. Halley. From the Palmford Apartments? 

Mv. Taylor. I lived there, it is true. 

Mr. Halley. Is it possible you Avrote him from there ? 

Mr. Taylor. It is possible. I wouldn't say I didn't for sure but 
I honestly don't remember ever doing so. 

Mr, Halley, Do you know any of the Fischettis ? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes, sir ; I know Charlie Fischetti. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Eocco Fischetti ? 

Mr. Taylor. His brother ; yes, I do. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Fischetti ? 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, I wouldn't know, say about 14 or 15 years. 

Mr. Halley. When did you last see Charlie Fischetti? 

Mr. Taylor. I saw Charlie Fischetti last February in Miami. 

Mr. Halley. How long did you spend in INIiami last year ? 

Mr. Taylor. Ten days. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you stay? 

Mr. Taylor. Mrs. Taylor and 1 had an apartment. Mrs. Taylor 
and myself and my sister went down there and my sister remained 
with her. We 'had'an apartment away uptown at Seventy-sixth Street 
or Seventy-eighth Street. 

Mr. Halley. How long did Mrs. Taylor stay there ? 

Mr. Taylor. She stayed there for 21/0 months ; she and my sister. 

Mr. Halley. Do you own an automobile ? 

Mv. Taylor. Yes, sir. 

JSIr. Halley. What kind ? 

:Mr. Taylor. It is a 1947 Lincoln. 

Mr. Halley. You say you saw Fischetti in Miami last winter ? 

Mr. Taylor. I saw him at Twenty-third and Collins Avenue for 
just a minute or two. 

Mr. Halley. Did you talk to him ? 

Mr. Taylor. I said, "Hello" and shook hands with him ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do vou know Jack Guzik ? 

Mr. Taylor. Guzik ? Yes, I do. 

Mr. Halley. When did you last see him ? 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, I haven't seen him in yeare. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know ]\Iurray Humphreys ? 

Mr. Taylor. By reputation. 



214 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. PIalley. Have you ever met liim ? 

Mr. Taylor. Maybe once or twice. I can't recall, but it strikes me 
that I have. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Accarclo ? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Meyer Lansky ? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How did you meet him? 

Mr. Taylor. Well, I met Lansky around New York at the fights 
in Madison Square Garden. Someone introduced us, introduced me 
to him. 

Mr. Halley. Did Rosen introduce you to him? 

Mr. Taylor. It is possible. I know Rosen very well. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Lansky in Atlantic City? 

Mr. Taylor. It is possible that I did. 

Mr. Halley. Did he ever go to your apartment ? 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, no. 

Mr. Halley. Has Charlie Fischetti ever been in your apartment? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. Charlie Fischetti was in Atlantic City and 
he called at our house to say hello and didn't remain there very long. 
I would say maybe an hour or half an hour, something like that and 
went on about his business. 

Mr. Halley. Was that Atlantic City ? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Has he ever been to your house at Miami ? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been to Hot Springs, Ark. ? 

Mr. Taylor. I have. I used to go there with Mr. LaFontaine. 

Mr. Halley. When were you last there ? 

Mr. Taylor. Five or six years ago. 

jNIr. Halley. Did you ever go there with Stromberg? 

Mr. Taylor. Never. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet Weisberg there ? 

INIr. Taylor. Never, no, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Was Atlantic City where you were this past summer? 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, yes. Mrs. Taylor has a home down there. 

Mr. Halley. Are you familiar with conditions in Atlantic City ? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes, pretty much. 

Mr. Halley. There was open bookmaking there this summer, wasn't 
there, unrestricted? 

Mr. Taylor. I wouldn't say so. If it was, it was done very, very 
quietly. 

Mr. Halley. Was there gambling at night clubs ? 

Mr. Taylor. Not at any place that I knew of; no, sir. 

IVIr. Halley. Were you in the Surf Club? 

Mr. Taylor. You mean the bath and surf club? I was in the cafe 
part but never in the casino room that you refer to. 

Mr. Halley. Did you hear there was a casino room in that club? 

Mr. Taylor. There was, of course there was. 

Mr. Halley. Wasn't that operating this summer? 

Mr. Taylor. Not that I knew of ; no, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Was it operating the previous summer, the summer 
of 1949 ? 



ORGANiIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE, 215 

Mr. Taylor. Tliat I couldirt tell you. 

Mr. Halley. What do you tliiuk'^ 

Mr. Taylor. It is possible. 

Mr. Halley. Was the 500 Club operating oamblino- in 1949? 

Mr. Taylor. I don't know if the 500 Club luid any oanibling at all 
because I don't know where they could gamble in that place. What I 
saw, the front of it is a bar and the back of it is a kind of nioht club. 

Mr. Halley. Before the back of it became a night club, didn't they 
have gambling in the back? 

Mr. Taylor. That wouldn't be 1949. 

Mr. Halley. Not much of a night club? 

Mr. Taylor. Well, it is a snuill place. They had good acts there. 
Joe Louis and those kind of fellows are pretty good attractions, I 
should think. 

Mr. Halley. It was pretty crowded, wasn't it? 

Mr. Taylor. Jammed, you couldn't move around. It is not as big 
as this room. 

Mr. Halley. It wasn't supposed to be a night club, obviously, that 
back room. 

Mr. Taylor. It was used for a night club. 

Mr. Halley. It was supposed to be a gambling room? 

Mr. Taylor. I w^ouldn't say so. I don't think it is fair for you to 
ask me. 

Mr. Halley. Did you see any gambling this summer? 

Mr. Taylor. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Halley. You can't help the committee on that? 

Mr. Taylor. I would like to help if I could, but I don't want to lie 
^bout it. 

Mr. Halley. There has been gambling in recent years, hasn't there? 

Mr. Taylor. I would think there was, yes ; but I tell you I haven't 
had anything to do, as I told you, in that line in Atlantic City in the 
last 16 years, maybe 18 years. So I w^ouldn't have a good idea of it, 
but I imagine there could have been some gambling down there. 

]Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet Frank Costello ? 

Mr. Taylor. I met ]\Ir. Costello in Dinty Moore's Restaurant. I 
jDrobably met him twice in my whole life. 

Mr. Halley. Did you speak to him ? 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Halley. Who introduced you ? 

Mr. Taylor. A man by the name of Billie Gibson, who used to 
manage Bennie Leonard. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet James Lynch ? 

Mr. Taylor. James Lynch? I don't know the name. 

Mr. Halley. He operates in New Jersey. 

Mr. Taylor, I don't know^ him. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Adonis ? 

Mr. Taylor. By reputation. 

Mr. Halley. You never met him ? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Little Augie Pisano ? 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, yes ; I know him. 

Mr. Halley. How do you know him ? 

Mr. Taylor. Through" his father-in-law, Jimmie, a former fighter, 
and he had a night club down in Greenwich Village. He introduced 
me to him. He married his daughter. 



216 ORGAISFIZED CRIME IN INTE'R STATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Do you know him pretty well ? 

Mr. Taylor. Very well. 

Mr. Halley. Did you introduce Stromberg to Little Augie Pisano, 
or did he introduce you ? 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, Grod, no. 

Mr. Halley. Did you both just happen to know him ? 

Mr. Taylor. No, no, no. I tell you his father-in-law introduced 
me to him. 

Mr. Halley. You knew Jimmie Kelly ? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Just a coincidence that Strombero; knows him, too? 

Mr. Taylor. I think anybody in the sporting line knew Jimmie 
Kelly in New York, and knew Au'gie. Everybody who was mixed up 
in boxing or anything like that would have to know him. Kelly was 
quite a good fighter in the old days. 

Mr. Halley. Is Stromberg a pretty good friend of yours ? 

Mr. Taylor. I wouldn't say a bad friend. I wouldn't say an inti- 
mate friend. 

Mr. Halley. You see him quite often, don't you ? 

Mr. Taylor. I saw him yesterday for the first time since last Febru- 
ary. Would you call that an intimacy ? 

Mr. Halley, In recent years have you seen him more often ? 

Mr. Taylor. I saw him more often than that, of course, but I haven't 
seen him — I saw him truthfully in this place, and that is the first time I 
saw him since last February. 

Mr. Halley. How about Willie Weisberg? Is he a good friend 
of yours ? 

Mr. Taylor. Very good. 

Mr. Halley. How often do you see Weisberg? 

Mr. Taylor. I see him as often as I hope to see him because I am 
very fond of him. He used to work for our family. He used to drive 
an automobile for our family, but that has been all of 15 or lo years 
ago. 

Mr. Halley. I hate to ask you this question about a friend, but I 
have to : What business is he in ? 

Mr. Taylor. I honestly can't answer that question. I don't know. 
Don't laugh, but that is the truth. 

Mr. Halley. He says he has no legitimate business. 

Mr. Taylor. I don't know what he told you, sir, but I will say this, 
if you couldn't take me on my oath I couldn't honestly tell you what 
line of business he is in. 

Mr. Halley. He looks quite well. 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, I don't know. He lives at Fiftieth and Spruce 
in a little bit of an apartment with a little kitchenette and one bed- 
room. Do you call that lavish? 

Mr. Halley. He goes to Florida for the winter. 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, that ; you are asking me something else, you see. 
You were talking about living. That I don't know. I never in- 
quired, but I will tell you truthfuMy I like the fellow and I like him 
very, vei-y much. 

Mr. Halley. You don't know what business he is in? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir ; I honestly can't tell you. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear he was in the numbers business ? 



GRGADSriIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 217 

Mr. Taylok, I read it in the news[):i|)ers. It is common gossip all 
over the viUage around here. Everybody knows it. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever discuss it with him ? 

Mr. Taylor. Never; no. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know any members of the ])olice force of 
Phihidelphia? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes; I am ghid you asked me that (question. I am 
going to ask your permission to tell you something. 

Mr. Halley. Shoot. 

Mr. Taylor. You know why I am in here? My name was given to 
this committee, and it was given to Mr. Goldschein by a man who I 
hftd arrested as the superintendent of police — he is an assistant super- 
intendent of police today — because he blackguarded me, and I had 
engaged Mr. Richardson Dilworth, and I had him arrested. He called 
me — if I may use the language 

The Chairman. Sure, 

Mr, Taylor. There was a boy that was managing prize fighters. 
I want you gentlemen please to listen to this. This is the gospel truth. 
He owed me for 80 tickets at $5 apiece. The box office was closed at 
Lou Tickler's Restaurant. The ticket man had left, and he phoned 
my office, and luckily I was in there. I went over to collect this money. 
The boy's name is Blinky Palermo. He manages Ike Williams and 
all those fighters. As he was counting the money down to me and 
he reached the $360, he was to give me $40 more, and his back was 
turned to the door; and Inspector Richardson — that is what he was 
at that time — came in and struck him behind and knocked him down 
and dragged him out on the street and came back. I don't know 
whether he had him arrested that night or not, but anyhow Blinky 
was gone, and he came back and I spoke to him, and I said, *'! think 
that you ought to be ashamed of yourself for doing anything like 
that." I said, "if he committed a crime, why didn't you have him 
pinched instead of slugging him in front of all these people and all?" 

He -said, "You are as bad he is. And you are in cahoots with him, 

and you are nothing but a G damned kike, and Hitler was right, 

and I will do the same to you." 

I said, "You wouldn't do the same to me at all," and I went and had 
him arrested. He has blackguarded me all over this town. He 
threatened to get me mixed up with all the underworld and all that 
sort of thing, and I was taken sick Avith the typhoid fever, and when I 
came out of the hospital Mr. Walter Annenberg, the man who owns the 
Enquirer, sent for me and wrote me a letter, and I brought it down 
here to show you gentlemen and asked me to call the suit off, that it 
was bad on account of the racial situation. I stopped the suit. Mr, 
Richardson Dilworth is alive, and he can prove every word I am saying 
here. That has been 6 years ago. Is that right. Senator? 

The Chairman. That is right. 

Mr. Tayl :r. Sure. He promised — he told people he was going to 
humiliate me and drag me into this and connect me up with all the 
numbers and gangs and everything else, and I am as innocent of any- 
thing like that as a newborn baby. I will say this to you : Every mem- 
ber who is here, if it is a crime to know people, I am guilty. I know a 
lot of people. I know a lot of good people. I know doctors and law- 
yers, I know supreme court justices. I know the Honorable James 
McGranery here. I know, yes, people of the underworld. 1 am in a 



218 ORGAHSrilZED CRIME IN INTEfRSTATE COMMERCE 

business that brings me in contact with all elements of people. If that 
is a crime to know people, then yes, I am guilty. You can mark me 
down for whatever you like. But I never made 2 cents with any of 
those fellows in my life, so help me God, never, not 2 cents. I never 
was in business with them. 

Mr. Halley. You have had occasion to make a lot of long-distance 
phone calls to a lot of people, haven't you ? 

Mr. Taylor. Of course. My business calls for that, sir. I get fight- 
ers. I have to get on an airplane and go to California and bring a 
fighter on. 

Mr. Halley. For instance, you called the Fischettis quite often. 

Mr. Taylor. I don't deny knowing those people. 

The Chairman. Why would you be calling them so often? What 
would they have to do with fighting? 

Mr. Taylor. I tell you, sir, there was a fighter that they were inter- 
ested in at one time by the name of Eddie Shea, and I brought him tO' 
fight Bennie Bass around here. I wouldn't call him so often. I haven't 
spoken to Charlie Fischetti — I saw him last February. God knows 
when I spoke to him before that ; if you have records there, look at 
them. This is the wrong thing this thing of dragging me into this. 

Mr. Halley. You have called Mickey Cohen. 

Mr. Taylor. He manages W^illie Joyce. Indeed I did; very true;; 
and brought him on. He fought Ike Williams. 

The Chairman. Mickey Cohen managed who? 

Mr. Taylor. Willie Joyce, of Chicago, a colored boxer. Tliey fought 
at the arena and again at Convention Hall. 

The Chairman. When was that? 

Mr. Taylor. They fought twice for me. They fought — I honestly 
can't remember the yeai*s. 

The Chairman. Ten years ago, five years ago? 

Mr. Taylor. Not that long, sir. 

The Chairman. Three years ago ? 

Mr. Taylor. I would say about 5 years ago. I would say atout 5 
years. They fought two fights for me. 

The Ceiairman. Mr. Taylor, here is the thing. You called the 
Fischettis. You called Mickey Cohen about these people. Are most 
of these fighters being managed by people like them ? 

Mr. Taylor. Quite a lot of them, sir. 

Tlie Chairman. Would you say the majority of them ? 

Mr. Taylor. Not the majority, but quite a few. 

The Chairman. How did they get into that business ? 

Mr. Taylor. I don't know. How do they get into any other line? 
I wouldn't knoAv that, sir. 

The Chairman. Who manages some other fighters? People like 
Mickey Cohen. What other j^eople manage some ? You know people 
that you read about as being in the rackets. 

Mr. Taylor. I will tell you what I know. I remember this man 
that is so notorious all over the world, pretty near, that Luciano. He 
came to me one time with a fighter by the name of Lou Salica. 

The Chairman. When was that ? * 

Mr. Taylor. That has been a long time ago. I met him in ^Madison 
Square Garden, and the fellow brought him over and introduced me 
to him. I never met the man before. He told me he hacl a good 
fighter and he wanted me to manage him. I told him I couldn't man- 



ORGAINiIZED CRIME IN INTElRSTATE COMMERCE 219 

age a fighter because I was a promoter and we aic not allowed to pro- 
mote and manage boxers. 1 suggested a boy in his home town by the 
name of Hymie Kajjlan, who incidentally developed 

The Chairman. I don't want to get into details. You mentioned 
Mickey Cohen, the Fischettis, and Luciano. Who else^ Did Meyer 
Lansky have an interest in that ? 

Mr. Taylor. He wasn't in the boxing business that I know of: no, 
sir. 

Mr. Halley. How about Frankie Carbo? 

Mr. Taylor. I know liim very well. 

Mr. Halley. What is his business ? 

Mr. Taylor. I don't know what he is doing outside of monkeying 
around with boxers. He has boxers. 

Mr. Halley. Is he a racket man, too? 

Mr. Taylor. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Isn't he? 

Mr. Taylor. I can't swear to that. I can't prove that he is. 

The Chairman. Do you think he is ? 

Mr. Taylor. He miglit be. 

The Chairman. Who does he have ? 

Mr. Taylor. He has some fighters. I don't know whether they 
are under his management so far as commissions are concerned, but 
I think he has some boxers. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat business do you have with Longie Zwillman? 

Mr. Taylor. None, never. 

Mr. Halley. You have called him up on occasion ? 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, no. 

Mr. Halley. It shows that you did. 

Mr. Taylor. That is not true. I never called that man up in mv 
life. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Longie ? 

Mr. Taylor. I would say 10 "or 12 years, something like that. 

Mr. Halley. How did you happen to meet him ? 

Mr. Taylor. Around the fights, wanted tickets for a show that I 
had here one time between Hamis and Sclmieling, or something, and 
called up for them. 

Mr. Halley. I gather that the substance of your testimony is that 
you know all these fellows ; you would be bound to meet them in the 
fight business because they are all interested in it ? 

Mr. Taylor. You meet all kinds of people in our business. 

Mr. Halley. But these people take a more active participation. 
I'hey either manage fighters 

Mr. Taylor. They are fight fans. They are great fight fans. 

Mr. Halley. And a lot of them have pieces of fighters ? 

Mr. Taylor. I would say so. Yes; you are definitely right about 

that. , ^ 

The Chairman. How^ about Joe Adonis? Does he have any 

fighters ? 

Mr. Taylor. Not that I know of. 

The Chairman. Does Ben Kosen have any— "Nig" Rosen { 

Mr. Taylor. Neverthatlknewof ; no, sir. 

The Chairman. Jack Dragna, out in Californni ? Do you know 
him? 



220 ORGA'NiIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE, 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir ; him I don't know. 

The Chairman. How about these people in Kansas City ? Do you 
know those people ? 

Mr. Taylor. The only promoter I knew in Kansas City, Senator, 
was a man by the name of Gabe Kaufman. I think he has since died, 
though. He used to run shows at Convention Hall. He was quite a 
successful promoter. 

The Chairman. Was he a racket man ? 

Mr. Taylor. I don't think so. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know Binaggio or Gargotta or Gizzo out 
in Kansas City ? 

Mr. Taylor. None of those boys. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Lucky Luciano? 

Mr. Taylor. I told you that I knew him. I told you how I met him. 
I met him in Madison Square Garden, and he had this fighter, this 
Lou Salica. I turned him over to Hymie Kaplan, who developed him 
into a world champion for him. That is history. Everybody knows 
that. 

The Chairman. Would you say 50 percent of the boxers today are 
in the hands of these fellows you read about in the papers? 

Mr. Taylor. I wouldn't say that, Senator. I would say quite a 
few are, but I wouldn't say 50 percent. I don't think half of them. 

The Chairman. But a pretty big percentage? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes ; I would say quite a lot o*f them. 

The Chairman. That is quick money, and it is exciting. 

Mr. Taylor. You understand, we are not — I will tell you what 
happened. I will show you an instance. I talked to Cohen on the 
phone. I brought Willie Joyce 

The Chairman. Have you met Cohen personally ? 

Mr. Taylor. I was just getting to that. I went to California to 
see Williams fight a boy by the name of Balonas 2 years ago, and I 
signed Williams up to fight Beau Jack here in Philadelphia. I was in 
a restaurant, and who came in but Mickey Cohen. What am I sup- 
posed to do ; run away from the fellow because he has the reputation 
of being a bad fellow? He came over to the table and made a big 
fuss over me. We sat down and we had a drink together, yes. I 
couldn't run away from the fellow. I had just given him $9,000 for 
one fight and $6,000 for another. My God, I don't sleep with them. 
I am not in business with them. That you can rest assured. I never 
was and I never will be. None of them. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Sinatra? 

Mr. Taylor. Not intimately. I did him a favor. He wanted to 
promote a fight in Los Angeles between Joey Maxon and Joe Walcott, 
and I arranged the show for him. 

Mr. Halley. Was Blinky Palermo in that deal, too ? 

Mr. Taylor. No ; that is not true. That is not true. 

'Mr. Halley. You know Palermo? 

Mr. Taylor. Blinky Palermo ? I know him. He has 20 fighters, 
I guess. 

The Chairman. Is it known that Frank Sinatra manages fighters? 

Mr. Taylor. He doesn't manage them. He promoted this one 
show, very much to his sorrow, incidentally, in Los Angeles. 

The Chairman. Does he promote many shows ? 



ORGANiIZED CRIME IN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE 221 

Mr. Taylor. Tliat is the only one that I ever knew that he promoted 
and he called me up. He tried to make a match and couldn't do it 
himself. He called me on the telephone and asked me if I would do it, 
and I made the match for him. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat year was this? 

Mr. Taylor. I would say 3 years a^^o. 

jNIr. Halley. You state unequivocally that you have no connection 
with any gambling business ? 

Mr. Taylor. Outside of what I told you, I haven't had anything to 
do with gambling in Atlantic City for between 16 and 18 years, and 
my only interest was as an employee at the Maryland Athletic Club, 
which has been closed 3 years last month. I never had no other deal- 
ings anywhere. 

Mr. Halley. Right up to the end of the Maryland Athletic Club in 
1947 you did have income from them? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes ; but they weren't open regular. As I tell you, it 
was spasmodically. 

Mr. Halley. Each year you drew some income ? 

Mr. Taylor. Not eveiy year. We have had years we would miss, 
you know. They were closed one time for 2% years, the place was, 
during the time that I was around there. 

]\Ir. Halley. Do you know whether Stromberg had any interest in 
the Maryland Athletic Club? 

Mr. Taylor. Definitely none that I know of. Listen, that man, 
nobody had any interest in that place but the man who owned it, and 
that was Mr. LaFontaine. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat dealings did you have with Julius Fink in 
Baltimore ? 

Mr. Taylor. None. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know him ? 

Mr. Taylor. Just to see. 

Mr. Halley. You called him up ? 

Mr. Taylor. No, no, no. I didn't call him up. 

Wait a minute, maybe you are right. I called him up to get a 
lawyer for a lady that was suing her husband for nonsupport. You 
are right. I will tell you the lady's name, Mrs. Curseo. You are 
right. 

Mr. Halley. Who was Tony Barata ? 

Mr. Taylor. He has that saloon in Atlantic City called the Escort 
Bar at Missouri and Atlantic Avenues. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether he has a police record or not? 

Mr. Taylor. Oh, no ; he is all right. 

Mr. Halley. Is he clean ? 

Mr. Taylor Oh, yes. He is a nice boy. 

Mr. Halley. What kind of saloon has he ? 

Mr. Taylor. One of the nicest you were ever in ; a reasonable place. 
No ; that is wrong. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Erickson? 

Mr. Taylor. No, sir; only by reputation. I have read about him. 
I don't know him to see or talk to. 

Mr. Halley. He is on your phone list. 

Mr. Taylor. I can't help it. I never calked to Frank Erickson in 
my life. 

68958 — 51 — pt. 11 15 



222 ORGAlSnZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE, 

Mr. Hallet. You never did ? 

Mr, Taylor. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You know Charles Ford, of course? 

Mr. Taylor. The lawyer in Washington ; very well. 

Mr. Halley. Has he ever represented you? 

Mr. Taylor. Yes ; he did. 

Mr. Halley. In what matters? 

Mr. Taylor. We had a tax matter here that he came up on, in this 
building, incidentally. 

The Chairman, What is his name ? 

Mr. Taylor. Charles E, Ford. He is in the Columbian Building in 
Washington, Senator. 

Mr. Halley. You remember him? 

Mr. Taylor. He helped us straighten out a tax matter. 

Mr. Halley. A criminal or civil matter ? 

Mr. Taylor. A civil thing. I had a partner who died, who didn't 
pay all the taxes, and it came back on me. I wound up having to 
pay it. 

The Chairman. How much are you worth today, Mr. Taylor ? 

Mr. Taylor. When you say "worth," I will tell you truthfully I 
have carried no life insurance, Senator, and through the years we 
saved — I bought some securities for Mrs. Taylor, and she also owns 
that home in Atlantic City, and I have an automobile. I would say 
putting it all together, well, it might be worth $80,000 or $90,000, I 
would say. 

The Chairman. How many times did you see Al Capone in your 
life? 

Mr. Taylor, Not very often, sir. 

The Chairman. Five or ten times ? 

Mr. Taylor. I would say maybe three or four times. 

The Chairman. Did you see him in Miami occasionally ? 

Mr. Taylor. Occasionally? Not occasionally. I saw him twice, 
and I saw him here once ; maybe I saw him four times. I don't know. 

The Chairman, This money that you got down at Jimmie La- 
Fontaine's, you deposited that in a bank ? 

Mr. Taylor, Not all of it. I would use some of it, leave some of it 
at home, deposit some of it. 

The Chairman. Excuse me, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. I was just about finished, Senator. 

The Chairman. Anything else? 

Your income here seems to range 30, 40, or 60 thousand dollars a 
year, off and on. 

Mr. Taylor. It has in the last year I was in operation. Senator ; and 
of course, the last 2 years, this year particularly, absolutely nothing. 
So I have been living on what both Mrs. Taylor and I had. I do 
know roughly that I paid, I am sure that I paid in 6 years, in the 
neighboi'hood of $100,000 taxes to the Government, because I have 
those things up there to show that. 

The Chairman, Did Jimmie LaFontaine smoke opium; do you 
know ? 

]\Ir. Taylor. I don't know that, sir. I know this, Senator. He was 
the nicest and kindest man I ever knew in my life. 

The (Chairman. You liked him very much ? 

Mr. Taylor. Very much. I have never liked my father any better. 



.ORGANiIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE, 223 

Mr. Halley. How do you think he ever got to accumulate a million 
and a half dollars in cash^ You remember that story; that it was 
found in his box ? 

Mr. Taylor. It wasn't found in his box. They found it, anyway, 
wherever it was. 

Mr. Halley. It was there, all right. 
Mr. Taylor. Yes. It was more than a million dollars. 
Mr. Halley. A million and a half in cash. 

Mr. Taylor. Charlie Ford told me that. He was a very, very shrewd 
operator, but I will say this, an honest man. The man never did a 
wrong in his life that I know of. He was honest. Every device that 
he had in his gambling house was honest. You could go in there 
blindfolded. I have seen as many as 600 people gambling at one time 
in that place. That is a very unusual thing. You don't run across 
that regularly. 

Mr. Halley. What is the low-down on this Philadel'phia situation? 
Mr. Taylor. Wliat I personally think ? 
Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Taylor. I w^ill tell you what I personally think. I don't say 
this with a grudge to this man that I spoke about, Richardson. He is 
rotten to the core. I think he is a grafter in his heart. I think he 
makes trouble for people that he can't get money from. I think all 
this is a little bit exaggerated. 

I heard out there in that room before I came in here that he denied 
to his boss, Mr. Rosenberg, saying the things before this body. If he 
knew all that was going on, why didn't he tell his superiors about it? 
He said that I was a "front" in Maryland for "Nig" Rosen. He said 
that, and that I was a stooge for him, and that I was one of his lieu- 
tenants in the numbers business. Why didn't he have me arrested? 
He knew it all those years. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have that letter of Richardson's? 
Mr. Taylor. Why didn't he have me arrested ? 

Mr. Halley. As a matter of fact, he said you were in the Maryland 
Athletic Club, that you front for "Nig" Rosen, and that you have run 
gambling houses all your life. 

Mr. Taylor. All over the world, I guess. That is silly. 
Mr. Halley. This is his statement. 

Mr. Taylor. I know it is. And I am glad that you gentlemen find 
out what kind of man furnished you with the information that he did. 
Mr. Halley. Do you think that anybody is paying off the police in 
Philadelphia? 

Mr. Taylor. I think — this is a large city. I think there is a little 
bit of corruption in every town, big cities. But, when you talk about 
organized crime and all that, I don't believe it, as far as Philadelphia 
is concerned. 

Mr. Halley. You get into trouble on this theory when you wonder 
where fellows like Weisberg and Rosen, friends of yours, make their 
money. 

Mr. Taylor. Who gets in trouble? 
Mr. Halley. I mean the theory. 
Mr. Taylor. Oh. That is their business. 
Mr. Halley. I know. 

Mr. Taylor. I don't have to live with them. I don't have to do the 
things that they do, if they do anything. I don't know. I can't 



224 ORGANIZED CRIME IN IZSTTERSTATE COMMERCEi 

honestly tell you that I know they are in the numbers business or in 
the gambling business. I told you that I was. I am trying to be honest 
with myself, because I took an oath to God that I would tell the truth. 
I am going to tell the truth. I didn't say I don't want to answer you. 
I am trying to cooperate. 

Mr. Halley. You have answered. You have answered every 
question. 

Mr. Taylor. I tried to. I have nothing to hide. I am not a saint ; 
don't misunderstand me. 

The Chairman. You go right on, and let the record show that I am 
leaving right now to go upstairs, but go on with your questions. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. As a matter of fact, we can go off the 
record. I would like to chat with you a little bit. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

(Thereupon, at 5: 50 p. m., the hearing was adjourned, subject to 
call of the chairman.) 



INYESTICiATION OF OKGANIZED CEIME IN INTEESTATE 

COMMEKCE 



MONDAY, EEBRUARY 19, 1951 

Unii'ed States Senate, 
Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Washington^ D. G. 
The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 : 20 a. m., in 
room 457, Senate Office Building, Senator Estes Kefauver (chairman) 
presiding. 

Present : Senators Kefauver, O 'Conor, and Tobey. 
Also present : Downey Kice, associate counsel ; John L. Burling, 
associate counsel ; and Joseph L. Nellis, assistant counsel. 

(During the morning session, the committee heard the testimony of 
Louis E. Eicarddi, Detroit, Mich., which testimony is published in 
part 9 of the hearings of the committee, and Alfred Polizzi, Cleveland, 
Ohio, and Coral Gables, Fla., which testimony is published in part 6 of 
the hearings of tlie committee.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

(Also present: The same as heretofore noted with the following 
addition: Alfred M. Klein, associate counsel.) 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. The chairman, 
pursuant to resolution heretofore passed, designates himself as a 
committee of one to hold this hearing until Senator O'Conor returns, 
and he will be designated as the chairman of the subcommittee of one 
to proceed with the hearing. 

This afternoon we have two witnesses who were heard previously 
in executive session in Philadelphia last October. Is that right ?, 

Mr. Klein. October 13 and 14. 

The Chairman. Harry Stromberg and William Weisberg. 

Subsequent to that time Judge William A. Gray wrote the chairman 
of the committee a letter, in which he said he had talked the matter 
over with Mr. Stromberg and Mr. Weisberg, and that whereas they 
had refused to answer certain questions, that as a result of his dis- 
cussion with them they are ready and willing to answer such questions 
which they refused to answer when examined. Pursuant to our gen- 
eral policy, before the citations are actually presented to the Senate, 
we give witnesses an opportunity to come in. We are glad to have the 
information they want to give. As to whether they relieve themselves 
of the action of the committee in voting citations for contempt or not 
is a matter that is left for the determination of the committee at a 
later time. 

225 



226 ORGANiIZED CRIME IN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Klein is our associate counsel who handled the hearing in Phila- 
delphia, and he will handle this one this afternoon. 

Who is our first witness ? 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Stromberg. 

The Chairman. Mr. Stromberg, you have been sworn, but I will 
swear you again. Do you swear the testimony you give the committee 
will be the whole truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I do. 

The Chairman. I called Mr. Gray "Judge." I believe you are not 
a judge, are you? 

Mr. Gray. No, sir. I have called that to your attention before, if 
you please, Mr. Senator. I am not a member of the bench, only a mem- 
ber of the bar. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. Well, down South 

Mr. Gray. They call them all judges. 

The Chairman, (continuing). After a lawyer has been practicing 
3 years, they call him a general, and then after 5 years, they call him a 
judge, and in Georgia after 10 years, they call him colonel. 

Mr. Gray. I have been practicing over 53 years, sir, so you can call 
me whichever you please. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Klein, proceed. 

PURTHER TESTIMONY OF HARRY STROMBERG, MIAMI BEACH, 
FLA., ACCOMPANIED BY WILLIAM A. GRAY, ATTORNEY, PHILA- 
DELPHIA, PA. 

Mr. Klein. We have your address as 4236 Pinetree Drive, Miami 
Beach, Fla., Mr. Stromberg. Is that the same ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Do you still have a New York address ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I have. 

Mr. Klein. Wliat address is that ? 

Mr. Stromberg. 2701 Grand Concourse Avenue. 

The Chairman. I didn't understand that. 

]\Ir. Stromberg. 2701 Grand Concourse Avenue, Bronx, N. Y. 

Mr. Klein. Now at the executive session of the committee in Phila- 
delphia on the 13th of October 1950, Mr. Halley was discussing with 
you your previous record of arrests and convictions, and he had come 
to a point where he asked you this question : '"By the way, you were 
in the bootlegging business during the prohibition days?" and your 
answer was, "1 refuse to answer that question on the ground it might 
incriminate me of a Federal offense." 

Are you now prepared to answer that question ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Gray. May I suggest to counsel for the committee 

The Chairman. Let's not take any pictures continuously. Get them 
as soon as possible and let's get these lights oft\ I see they are hurting 
counsel's eyes. 

Mr. Gray. May I suggest to counsel for the committee that if he 
looks a little further down that after consultation with his counsel 
he answered that question. Not that he wor/t answer it again, sir. 

The Chairman. Suppose you just ask the questions that he didn't 
answer and then anj^ questions, Mr. Klein, that come to your attention. 



ORGASSHIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 227 

Mr. Klein. That was the first question, Mv. Chairman, that he had 
refused to answer, and INfr. Ilalley repeated it and said, "I am refer- 
ring now to a period before the year 1932." And Mr. Stromberg said, 
"I refuse to answer on the oround it might incriminate me of a Federal 
oifense." 

]Mr. Halley went on to say, "I advise you that the statute of limita- 
tions has obviously run on any national prohibition otl'ense prior to 
1932," and Mr. Stromberg said, "I still refuse to answer that question 
on the ground it might incriminate me of a Federal otl'ense." 

I see Mr. Gray is right. Further on, after consultation with Mr. 
Gray, he said, "I am advising him to answer." And Mr. Stromberg 
said, '- Yes." Yes ; very good. 

Then we went on. Mr. Halley asked you : "Were you associated in 
that business with Abner Zwillman?" and your answer was, "I refuse 
to answer that question on the ground it might incriminate me of a 
Federal offense." 

The ChairMxVx. Ask the question and let's get on. 

Mr. Klein. Were you associated in that business with Mr. Abner 
Zwillman ? 

Mr. Gray. I don't want to interrupt any more than I have to, if the 
committee pleases. If you refer to the next page, you will find he then 
said, "'I don't remember if I was or not, sir," which was an answer. 

Mr. Klein. Having refreshed your memory and thought it over 
since then, if j^ou can, do you remember wdiether you were in with 
him or not ? 

Mr. Steombei?g. I was not. 

Mr. Klein. You were not? 

Mr. Stromberg. In this business. 

Mr, Klein. In this business. 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Are you associated with him now ? 

Mr. Stromberg. As a friend. 

Mr. Klein. As a friend ? 

JMr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. Have you had any business relations with him of any 
kind ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not whatsoever. 

Mr. Klein. At any time. 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Gray. Keep your voice up. 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; I haven't. 

Mr. Klein. Now, Mr. Halley discussed your association with the 
Dearest Miss Dress Co., and went on to ask you, "Do you have any 
other business?" and you refused to answer that question. AVill you 
answer that question now ? 

]Mr. Stromberg. Well, I did have another business. 

Mr. Klein. What business was that? 

Mr. Stromberg. Bookmaking. 

Mr. Klein. And when were you in the bookmaking business ? 

Mr. Stromberg. About 1943, 1944, something. 

Mr. Klein. And how long were you in the bookmaknig business? 

Mr. Stromberg. 1947. ^ 

Mr. Klein. Where were you in the bookmaking business ? 



228 ORGAMIZED CRUVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chaikman. I didn't understand. I thought you said 1943-44. 

Mr. Strombeeg. I started in 1943. 

The Chairman. And went on through to 1947 ? 

Mr. StromberOx. 1947. 

Mr. Klein. Where was that? 

Mr. Stromberg. New Jersey. 

Mr. Klein. Where ? 

Mr. Stromberg, Around Hackensack, around there. 

Mr. Klein. And you gave it up in 1947 ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. What address did you operate from in Hackensack ? 

Mr. Stroiniberg. Well, it was no address, it was a second-hand auto- 
mobile place, and I rented the back. As far as the address is con- 
cerned, I don't know. It was on the main highway. It was on the 
highway with no address. I don't remember the address. 

Mr. Klein. Whom did you rent from i 

Mr. Stromberg. A man by the name of Rude — K-u-d-e. 

Mr. Klein. Rude Motors Co. ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Probably. Maybe that. 

Mr. Klein. Did you have any associates in that business? 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; I didn't. Oh, yes ; I did. 

Mr. Klein. Who were they ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Paul Carbo and Nate Gershon. 

Mr. Klein. Paul Carbo? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. And Nate ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Gershon. 

Mr. Klein. Gershon? 

^Ir. Stromberg. I can't answer the questions with you fellows flash- 
ing in my face. 

Mr. Gray. Let them get all the pictures they want first and 

The Chairman. Let's take the picture now and get that over . 

Where did you say this was in New Jersey, Mr. Stromberg? 

Mr. Stromberg. I am waiting until they get through with the flash- 
lights. Senator. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Stromberg. Right in the middle of an answer or a question they 
have been flashing the flash in my eyes. 

The Chairman. Yes, I know. It is very 

Mr. Gray. I don't mind it because they never put the lawyer's pic- 
ture in anyhow. 

The Chairman. What is that ? 

Mr. Gray. I don't mind because they never put the lawyer's picture 
in anyhow, for which I am glad. 

The Chairman. They might if you ask them as a special favor. 

All ri^ht, boys. 

Mr. Klein. Let's get on. How did you come to go into business 
with Carbo and Gershon ? 

Mr. Si-ROMBERG. Gershon and Carbo, if I remember correctly, had 
some horse business, and they asked me to go with them. 

Mr. Klein. They approached you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think so. 

Mr. Klein. Did you put any money into the business ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; we put a little money in it. 



ORGANIZED CRIJVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 229 

Mr. Klein. How much did you put in ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Must have put in about four or five thousand dol- 
lars. 

Mr. Klein. Each? 

ISIr. Stromberg. Well, the whole thin<^ was ten thousand. 

Mr. Klein. The capital, bank roll, was $10,000? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. And how did you operate ? 

Mr. Stromberg. People called on the telephone, and they would 
make a bet. "Whatever we wanted we lielcl, and the rest we refused. 

Mr. Klein. What was the size of your operation? What was the 
handle ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Klein. Now think. Have you no idea ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; I don't 

Mr. Klein. Were you ever in the place ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I used to go in once in a while. 

Mr. Klein. How often did you go in ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Once a week, once every 2 weeks. 

Mr. Klein. How many telephones did you have? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think they had two. 

Mr. Klein. Did you operate it yourself or was it opearted by others? 

Mr. Stromberg. I beg your pardon ? 

Mr. Klein. Was it operated by Carbon and Gershon or did they 
hire men to operate it ? 

Mr. Stromberg. It was operated by the three of us. 

Mr. Klein. You were there, active in the place? 

Mr. Stromberg. No; I wasn't. 

Mr. Klein. I am talking about the actual physical operation of it, 
the handling. 

Mr. Stromberg. I said I don't know. 

Mr. Klein. You don't know ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. The only thing we got was a figure if we lost 
or we won. 

Mr. Klein. And how did you make out over the years? 

Mr. Stromberg. We win a few dollars. 

Mr. Ivlein. Beg pardon ? 

Mr. Stromberg. We win some money. 

Mr. Klein. You did win some money ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Were any records kept of tlie amount of money that 
was won? 

Mr. Stromberg. I did have. 

Mr. Klein. Did have? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Did you make income-tax returns for the years 1913-44? 

Mr. Gray. Just a moment. I shall have to advise Mr. Stromberg, 
although I know that he did make income-tax returns, that tliat ques- 
tion is one which he may refuse to answer on the grounds that it may 
incriminate him of a Federal offense. 

Mr. Klein. I won't press for an answer. He may answer if he 
wishes. 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer on the ground it may incriminate 
me of a Federal offense. 



230 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTEKSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Let me ask : Is your income tax under investiga- 
tion, do you think ? 

Mr, Stromberg. Beg pardon ? 

Tlie Chairman. Is your income tax under investigation, do you 
think? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think it is. 

The Chairman. Then I will rule you don't have to answer that 
question. 

Mr. Klein. Are you under indictment for anything at the moment? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Where does Paul Carbo live, do you know ? 

Mr. Stromberg. New York City. 

Mr. Klein. Is he a relative of Frank Carbo ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is the same. 

Mr. Klein. Same person? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Is that the Frank Carbo who is well known in the 
fight game ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Where does Gershon live ? 

Mr. Stromberg, I don't know. He was around New York, but I 
haven't seen him in the last 3 or 4 years. 

Mr. Klein. Do you know Frank Costello ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Klein. How well do you know Frank Costello ? 

Mr. Stromberg. For 10 or 12 years. 

Mr. Klein. How often do you see him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Very rarely. 

Mr. Klein. Do 3^ou know if Carbo has any association with Cos- 
tello? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Klein. Not that you know of ? 

Mr, Stromberg. No ; I don't think he has. 

Mr. Klein, Were you ever interested in the fight game ? 

Mr, Stromberg. Oh, maybe 25 years ago I was. 

Mr. Klein. In what way ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I was manager of a fighter, just for the sport. 

ISIr. Klein. Who did you manage ? 

Mr. Stromberg. A fellow by the name of Willie Siegel. 

Mr. Klein. Willie ? 

Mr. Stromberg. S-i-e-g-e-1. 

The Chairman. How did he come out — Willie Siegel ? Wliat sort 
of a fighter was he ? 

Mr. Stromberg, Fair fighter. 

The Chairman. Middleweight? 

Mr. Stromberg. Lightweight. 

The Chairman. Did he ever win any bouts ? 

Mr. Stroimberg. He won as many as he lost. 

The Chairman. What? 

Mr. Stromberg. He lost a few and won a few. 

The Chairman. How long did you manage him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. For about a year. 

The Chairman, Frank Carbo, who did he have? He had a good 
many fighters. 



ORGA!NIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 231 

Mr. Stromberg. I wouldn't know wlio he lias. 

Mr. Klein. Carbo has been associated with Mugsy Taylor in Phila- 
delphia, hasn't he ? 

]Mr. Stromberg. Not to my knowledge, outside of being friends. 

The Chairman. Is he a promoter or a manager ? 

Mr. Stro3Iberg. I think he is a manager. 

Mr. Klein. If it were to be testified that Carbo and Taylor had 
boxing operations together, it wouldn't surprise you, though, would it ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Would it surprise me ? 

]Mr. Klein. Yes. 

INIr. Stromberg. Nothing surprises me these days. 

Mr. Klein. Do you have any other business, or did you have any 
other businesses besides the ones that you have outlined — Dearest Miss 
Dress Co. and bookmaking operation at Hackensack ? 

]Mr. Stroiviberg. That is all ; no, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Do you have any other businesses now ? 

Mr. Stro3iberg. Did I have any businesses before or now ? 

INIr. Klein. During the period 1943 to 1947. 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; I didn't have any at that time. 

Mr. Klein. Now, then, Mr. Halley went on and asked you if you 
were in any business which, while not legitimate under the laws of any 
particular State, does not violate any Federal law, and you declined 
to answer. 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. Klein. Do 3'ou want to answer that now ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I gamble. 

Mr. Klein. You did gamble ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. On what do you gamble ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Horses. 

Mr. Klein. Exclusively ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Do you own any interest in any casino ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, I don't. 

Mr. Klein. You do not ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Klein. Where do j'ou gamble? 

Mr. Stromberg. At the race tracks 

Mr. Klein. Exclusively at the tracks ? 

Mr. Strombekg. Well, now exclusively at tracks when I am 'down 
there. I used to bet on the phone once in a while. 

Mr. Klein. As principal or as commission agent? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, mostly as principal. 

Mr. Klein Mostly as principal. You do handle some commissions, 
though, don't you ? 

ISIr. Stromberg. No, I don't. 

Mi\ Klein. None at all ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, 

Mr. Kleix. We v,-ill come back to that. 

Where do you gamble i 

Mr. Stromberg. At the race tracks. 

Mr. Klein. Which tracks? 

:Mr. Stromberg. Hialeah, Tropical, any one that is open that I have 
a chance to go down. 



232 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCEi 

Mr. Klein, So far you have named Florida tracks. How about 
tracks up North ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Behnont, Bowie, Laurel, any one of them. 

Mr. Klein. Do you care to tell us what your income was in 1950? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds 
it might incriminate me. 

I can't smoke, can I, Senator? 

The Chairman. Yes, you can smoke. 

Mr. Klein. The next question- — there are others that you have 
answered, and the next question I want to put to you is the chairman's 
question which was s])ecifically asking you whether you were in any 
numbers rackets, which you refused to answer. 

Mr.. Stromberg. Am I now or was I ? 

Mr. Klein. Are you now ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Were you ever? 

Mr. Strombe'rg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. When and wliere? 

Mr. Stromberg. About 9 years ago. 

Mr. Klein. Nine years ago? 

Mr. Stromberg. Or 8 years ago. 

Mr. Klein. Where? 

Mr. Stromberg. Philadelphia. 

Mr. Klein. How long had you been in the numbers business in 
Philadelphia? 

Mr. Stromberg. About 6 or 7 years. 

Mr. Klein. You got to Philadelphia around 1932 or 1933 ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Around that time. 

Mr. Klein. When did you first go into the numbers business in 
Philadelphia ? 

Mr. SiTtOMBERG. About 1935. 

Mr. Klein. About 1935. Did you have any associates? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Klein. And who were they ? 

Mr. Stromberg. One was Theodore Downing and the other one was 
Thomas Leonard. 

Mr. Klein. Theodore? 

Mr. Stromberg. Downing. 

Mr. Klein. And who was Thomas Leonard ? 

Mr. Stromberg. He is a fellow who used to be around Philadel- 
phia. He had some business and I went in with him. 

Mr. Klein. And is he still there? 

Mr. Stromberg. I haven't see him for quite a few years. 

Mr. Klein. Who is Theodore Downing? 

Mr. Stromberg. He was a fellow lived around Philadelphia. He 
died about 4 years ago, 3 years ago. 

Mr. Klein. Was Willie Weisberg in that business, too ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not to my knowledge — with me ? 

Mr. Klein. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Was he in any kind of business with you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Outside of the clothing place. 

Mr. Klein. The clothing business in Wilmington ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 



ORGAOSniZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 233 

Mr. Klein. You have already testified to that. 

Now, how did you operate in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, I wasn't very active. They were active with 
the business. 

Mr. Klein. What part did you take in the business ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Paying and collecting. 

Mr. Klein. Paying and collecting? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. I mean, if I lost I paid them; if I won, they 
would see that I got my money. 

Mr. Klein. You mean you were merely a banker ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. How did they operate? They were your partners. 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, I don't know much about how they operated^ 
but I know they used to have different people bring the numbers in to 
them, and if the number would come out, they would pay off. 

Mr. Klein. Do you mean to say you were in the business from 1935^ 
till 1943, 8 years, and you don't know ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I beg your pardon. It may be a year less. 

Mr. Klein. Suppose we say you were in the business 7 years, 

Mr. Stromberg. No. Was I in the business 7 years? 

Mr. Klein. I think so. Isn't that what you say? 

Mr. Stromberg. About 6 or 7 years. 

Mr. Klein. And you don't know how they operated? 

Mr. Stromberg. I just told you they used to have those writers 
bring the business in, and the writers would get 25 cents on the dollar 
for bringing in business. Then if the number was hit, they w^ould pay 
off. ^ 

Mr. Klein. How many writers did they have ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Oh, I don't know. 

Mr. Klein. You don't know ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Klein. Was it a profitable business? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, yes. 

Mr. Klein. It was ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Sometimes it was and sometimes it wasn't. 

Mr. Klein. Did they require any protection to operate? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't think they did. 

Mr. Klein. You don't think they did ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. They moved from one place to another.. 

Mr. Klein. How do you mean? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, they used to be in one place 2 days, and an- 
other place a couple of days. 

Mr. Klein. You don't mean that, do you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Klein. You mean to say that the numbers bank for 7 years 
moved every 2 days ? 

Mr. Stromberg. When I say "every 2 days," they might have stayed 
a week in one place. 

Mr. Klein. Now they are there for a week ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Sometimes 2 days, sometimes a week, sometimes 
3 days. They might have paid somebody. If they did, I don't 
know. They just had expense. 

Mr. Klein. You don't know who they paid ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, I don't. 



234 ORGADSniZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE, 

Mr. Klein. You were asked by Mr. Halley whether you had ever 
had any business relations with Meyer Lanslry^, and you refused to 
answer that. Do you want to change that ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I had no business relations. 

Mr. Klein. You never had ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Klein. Why did you refuse to answer that question ? 

Mr. Stromberg. There was too many questions that I had to answer, 
and I didn't know how to answer them. 

Mr. Klein. You had very able counsel with you. 

Mr. Stromberg. I know I had. 

Mr. Klein. He was sitting right at your elbow. You could have 
asked him. Why did you refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds it would tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No reason at all. I just didn't want to answer. 

Mr. Klein. Didn't want to answer. Out of your own words, don't 
you think that is contemptuous ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, it is not. I had no business whatsoever with 
him. 

Mr. Klein. You are answering it now. Why didn't you answer it ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I did give you an answer. I told you there were 
too many questions given to me, and I couldn't answer them all one 
after the other. 

Mr. Klein. You never had any connection with Meyer ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Do you know him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Very well. 

Mr. Klein. Do you have association with him now ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I see him once in a while. 

Mr. Klein. Another question that you didn't want to answer was 
Mr. Halley's question whether you had ever had any business with 
Frank Erickson — whom you said you knew. 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. I did have business with him. 

Mr. Klein. What business was that ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Horse business. 

Mr. Klein. Horse business. Did you bet with Erickson ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; I laid off to him when I had the office. 

Mr. Klein. You laid off to him during 1943 to 1947? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. How much did you lay off average per week ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I wouldn't know. I might have laid off one bet 
today, maybe not another for 2 weeks — wouldn't have laid off another 
bet. If I had too much on a horse I would call up and he would take 
it and take it off my hands. 

Mr. Klein. Don't you have any recollection of the amount of money 
you usually bet ^ 

Mr. Stromberg. No, I haven't. 

Mr. Klein. And you kept no record ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I had records. I haven't got them now. 

Mr. Klein. Where are those records now ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I tell you my wife moved and she sold the furni- 
ture, and the records went with them. I don't know where they 
are at. 

Mr. Klein. That is not so long ago, is it ? 



ORGAOSriZED CRIME IN INTEflRSTATE COMMERCE 235 



r. Strombekg. No; it is only about last June or last May. 
r. Klein. You didn't take them with vou^ You didn't asl 



Mr. 

Mr. Klein. You didn't take them with you^ You didn't"ask her 
for them ? 

Mr. Strombekg. Beg your pardon ? 

Mr. Klein. You didn't get them from her ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, I didn't. 

Mr. Klein. Now some of the other questions you were asked : ''Have 
you ever placed a bet on a horse?" and you have answered. "Have 
you ever booked any bets on a horse?" you have answered. 

INIr. Halley asked you whether you had ever been in any other 
business with Willie Weisberg except the JNIartin Clothing Credit Co. 

Mv. Stromberg. What is that question again, please? 

Mr. Klein. Have you ever been in any business with Willie Weis- 
berg ? 

Mr. Gray. Outside of the clothing company. 

Mr. Stromberg. None. 

Mr. Klein. Never had any other business dealings with Willie Weis' 
berg of any kind ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Of any kind. 

]Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. You are very friendly, though ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Klein. AYould you be surprised to know that Weisberg is 
looked on by the Philadelphia police as your lieutenant in Phila- 
delphia ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I can't be blamed for what the newspapers or the 
police write. He is not my lieutenant, and I have no lieutenants. 

Mr. Klein. You have no lieutenants now ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. You are not in any gambling business at the moment? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Now you were asked whether you had any business in 
Florida. Did you ever have any business in Florida ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Kace track booking. 

Mr. Klein. Race track? 

Mr. Stromberg. Nothing else ; that is all. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Halley asked you whether you ever had any legiti- 
mate business in Florida and you refused to answer. 

Mr. Stromberg. I have not. 

Mr. Klein. You have not. Were you ever interested in the Sands 
Hotel? 

Mr. Stromberg. Never. 

Mr. Klein. Do you spend a great deal of time there? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not a great deal of time. I used to go in there 
bathing. 

Mr. Klein. What? 

JNIr. Stromberg. I used to go in there bathing, to the pool. 

Mr. Klein. To the pool ; bathe ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Do a good many of your friends go there ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Beg pardon? 

Mr. Klein. Do a good many of your friends go there? 



236 ORGANilZED CRIME IN INT'EIRSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Stromberg. Wliat do you mean by "a good many of your 
friends" ? 

Mr. Klein. Well, let's see. Mr. Weisberg goes there. 

Mr. Stromberg. He lives there. 

Mr. Klein. He lives there? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. What part of the hotel did he live in ? 

Mr. Stromberg. What part? 

Mr. Klein. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. I only know one part. 

Mr. Klein. Wliat part? 

Mr. Stromberg. The Sands Hotel. 

Mr. Klein. I know, but what part of the hotel — the penthouse? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know if there is any penthouse there. 

Mr. Klein. Did you ever go to see him in his rooms at the hotel ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. He had one room. 

Mr. Klein. Which one was that ? 

]Mr. Stromberg. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Klein. Would it be 601 ? 

Mr. Stromberg. It might have. 

Mr. Klein. It might have been? 

Mr. Stromberg. Might have. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Street and Mr. Glass, who have an ownership in- 
terest in the hotel, are old friends of yours, too, aren't they ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes; I have known them for a long time. 

Mr. Klein. How about Sam Hoffman, "Cappy" — does he go there?. 

Mr. Stromberg. I think he lives there. 

Mr. Klein, You have seen him there ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Klein. Did you know Mr. Polizzi who was here this morning? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Have you ever met him there ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Y es, I did. 

Mr. Klein. Is he a friend of yours ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I wouldn't call him a friend of mine. 

Mr. Klein. You know him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. If I see him I say, "Hello." 

Mr. Klein. How about Mike and Frank Matay. Do you know 
them ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Who? 

Mr. Klein. Mike and Frank Matay. They are Philadelphia boys. 

Mr. Stromberg. Matteo? 

Mr. Klein. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. I know them. 

Mr. Klein. They go to the Sands, don't they? 

]\Ir. Stromberg. Never seen them in the Sands. 

Mr. Klein. Never saw them at the Sands ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. I don't think, I don't believe I have. 

Mr. Klein. How about Joe Brescia, or Billy Devine? Do you 
know either one of those ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I knew him. 

Mr. Klein. Is he still alive ? 

Mr. Stromberg. He has been dead 

Mr. Klein. Passed away. He went to the Sands, too ? 



ORGAIN'IZED CREVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCEi 237 

Mr. Stromberg. I think I saw him a few times there. 
JMr. Klein. How about Harry Siegel ? 
JSIr. Stromberg. I have seen him around. 

Mr. Klein. Siegel wasn't rehited to that fighter you had, was he? 
Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Klein. Raymond Boyne, did he ever go to the Sands? 
JNIr. Stromberg. I haven't seen him in about 10 years. I probably 
saw him once in the last 10 years. 

JMr. Klein. Did you have any business association with Raymond 
Boyne ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 
Mr. Klein. Ever? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. Probably in the bootlegging days I might 
have did some business. Outside of that, we haven't. 
Mr. Klein. Was Raymond Boyne a bootlegger? 
Mr. Stromberg. He sold a bottle of whisky. 
Mr. Klein. You were in the bootlegging business yourself? 
JMr. Stromberg. I admitted to that. 
Mr. Klein. Yes. How about Willie Moretti ? 
JMr. Stromberg. I know him. 
Mr. Klein. Do you know him ? 
JMr. Stromberg. Yes. 
JMr. Klein. Ever see him at the Sands ? 
Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 
Mr. Klein. Never saw him there ? 
JMr. Stromberg. No. 

JMr. Klein. How about Marco Reginelli ? 
JMr. Stromberg. I know him. 
Mr. Klein. Did you ever see him at the Sands ? 
Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. I call your attention to the Sunday in February 1949, 
the Sunday after the day when the racing wire went down in JNIiami ; 
there was no more race wire news coming over the line. Do you 
remember a meeting in the Sands Hotel ? 
JMr. Stromberg. About the wires ? 
Mr. Klein. I don't know what it was about. 
Mr. Stromberg. No, I don't. 
JMr. Klein. You had no meeting in the hotel ? 
Mr. Stromberg. Not that I can remember. 

Mr. Klein. Do you remember a meeting between youi-self, Willie 
Weisberg, Gappy Hoffman, Max Siegel, and Marco Reginelli ? 

JMr. Stromberg. I don't remember that. It might have been, but 
I don't remember. 

Mr. Klein. It might have been ? 
JMr. Stromberg. I don't remember. 
JMr. Klein. You don't have any recollection of it ? 
Mr. Stromberg. No, I don't ; I am sorry, 
Mr. Klein. But it might have been ? 
Mr. Stromberg. It might, might not. 

Mr. Klein. Now the following questions you have answered : Did 
you ever have any business in Florida ? Did you have any legitimate 
business there? 'When you came to Philadelphia did you go into 
any business ? You testiiied that you did go into business. 

68958 — 51 — i>t. 11 16 



238 ORGATSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Did you have any legitimate business in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Halley asked you whether you had any informa- 
tion regarding the numbers racket in Philadelphia and you refused 
to answer that, but you have since answered that you were in it 
yourself ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. I want to get these questions out of the way and then 
we will come back. 

Mr. Halley said, "I think you said you had no legitimate business 
in Philadelphia?" And you said, ''I refuse to answer that." And 
"Have you had any legitimate business any time?" And you refused 
to answer that but you have since answered. 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. Did you ever have any business in Pliiladelphia that 
involved violations of any laws, State or Federal ?" And you refused 
to answer. 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. And you since have answered. 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr, Klein. And he asked whether you had any business with Willie 
Weisberg, and you refused to answer that question, but answered it 
today, and said you had none and never had any? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. Why did you 

Mr. Stromberg. I wasn't sure. 

Mr. Klein. Let me finish the question. 

Mr. Stromberg. All right. 

Mr. Ku:iN. Why did you refuse to answer that question when today 
you so disarmingly said, "I have no relationship and never had"? 

Mr. Stromberg. I had the advice of counsel to refuse. 

Mr. Klein. Didn't you have the advice of the same counsel then? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Klein. Why did you answer the question in that w^ay ? 

Mr. Gray. Might I call the committee's attention to the fact that 
the record shows that about these questions you are now referring to, 
there was no consultation at that time. 

Mr. Klein. I don't tiiink you have to consult on every question, Mr. 
Gray, if the man took it on himself to answer the question. 

Mr. Gray. That is correct. 

The Chairman. All right, he has had more advice of counsel now. 

Mr. Gray. I'm calling attention to the fact he did not consult. It 
is his fault probably, or it may be mine for not interrupting, but the 
fact remains. 

Mr. Klein. ]\fr. Halley asked you if you had any business with 
Samuel Lit, and you refused to answer. Do you want to answer that 
question now? 

Mr. Stromberg. I really don't remember if I had any or not. He 
might have called me for a bet when I had the office, but I am not sure. 

Mr. Klein. Who is Sammy Lit? 

Mr. Stromberg. He books a few horses. 
Mr. Klein. In Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 



ORGAOVJIIZED CRUVIE IN INT'EIRSTATE COMMERCE 239 

Mr. Klein. Where does he make liis headquarters? 

Mr. Stromberg. In Philadelphia. 

Mr. Klein. AMiere? 

Mr. Stromberg. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Klein. Would it refresh your memory if I said 1011 Chestnut 
Street? 

Mr. Stromberg. I wouldn't know. I only know lie used to call from 
the house. 

Mr. Klein. Have you ever seen him? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Do you know him? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Klein. He used to call from his house? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think so. 

Mr. Klein. Where did he book these bets — up in north Jersey? 

Mr. Stromberg. Where he booked ? 

Mr. Klein. Yes; in Hackensack? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Klein. This was in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Where did you live when you were in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Where did I live? Forty-eighth and Spruce, I 
think, or Pine. I am not sure. 

Mr. Klein. Did you live in the Wingate Hall Apartments? 

Mr. Stromberg. Wingate, no; I don't think I ever lived in the 
Wingate. 

Mr. Klein. Did you live in the same apartment house as Mr. 
Weisberg ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Did you have a listed or unlisted phone ? 

;]\Ir. Stromberg. I think it was listed. I am not sure. 

Mr. Klein. It could have been unlisted ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Probably. I am not sure. About 10 years ago. 

Mr. Klein. Then there were other questions, "Have you had tele- 
phone calls from Sammy Lit?" And "Did you have any legitimate 
business with Sammy Lit?'' 

Have you any legitimate business with Sammy Lit ? 

.Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. You are not interested in his insurance companj? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Have you had any legitimate business with Frank 
Palermo ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Ever have any ? 

]\Ir. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Ever have any illegitimate business with Frank 
Palermo ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Ever associated with Frank Palermo in the numbers 
business ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Halley asked you whether you were in any legit- 
imate business before you went in the dress business. 



240 ORGAl«ra:ZED crime in interstate COMMERCEi 

Mr. Gray. That is New York? 

Mr. Klein. I presume so ; yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, I said I was in Wilmington, That was the 
only one. 

Mr. Klein. You have answered that. Those were the questie^.is 
that were put to you by Mr. Halley that you refused to answer. 

Now I want to ask you some additional questions that have been, 
developed since that hearing. 

You testified here today that you were in business but you didn't 
pay off anybody, you didn't have any protection that you knew of. 
Yet, at the hearings in October, you testified that you were friendly 
with the present assistant superintendent of police, Mr. Richardson, 
George Kichardson. 

Mr. Stromberg. I was. 

Mr. Klein. W^hen did you first become friendly with Mr. Richard- 
Bon? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is quite a number of years ago. I wouldn't 
remember — ^maybe 15 years ago, 16 years ago. 

Mr. Klein. How did you meet him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I was introduced to him; that is all. 

Mr. Klein. By whom ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember. 

Mr. Klein. At that time, 1935, you were operating in the numbers 
business ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I presume I was. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Richardson's duty as a member of the police force 
is to put down the numbers business. Why would someone introduce 
you to Mr. Richardson who, theoretically would be looking for you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't get that. Would you please repeat it? 
1 am sorry to ask you to repeat. I am a little hard of hearing. 

The Chairman. Let the reporter read it. 

Mr. Klein. I will rephrase it. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Klein. In 1935, 1936, approximately 15 years ago, you say you 
met Mr. Richardson ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. You were in the numbers business ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. Will you agree with me the numbers business was then 
and still is illegal ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Pardon me a second, please ? 

Mr. Klein. Yes. 

(Witness confers with his attorney.) 

Mr. Gray. Go ahead and answer the question. Try and answer 
Mr. Klein's question. 

I don't know whether it is proper for me to state this, but I think it 
is, that I called his attention to the fact Richardson arrested him, and 
had 16 bills of indictment against him. 

Mr. Klein. I know that. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Klein. 

Mr. Klein. Why would someone introduce you to Richardson? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know; just like meeting anybody else. 
Probably met him in a restaurant or a bar or somewhere. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INT'EIRSTATE COMMERCE 241 

Mr. Klein. You have testified that you have known Richardson 
since 1932 or 1933. Maybe before that. 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. At the time you came to Phihidelphia. You testified 
that you had never been to Richardson's home, but you have been in 
a restaurant with Richardson in New York ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. And you also testified that you were there once or twice ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. Now, I ask you to refresh your memory and tell me 
whether or not you have not been in other places with Superintendent 
Richardson ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Probably in a bar in Philadelphia, but I wouldn't 
remember. 

Mr. Klein. Isn't it a fact, Mr. Stromberg, that you entertained 
Mr. Richardson at a theater in New York ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes; it is. 

Mr. Klein. How many times have you taken him to the theater? 

Mr. Stromberg. Several occasions. 

Mr. Klein. Several occasions. From what period to what period ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Oh, maybe 1939, 1940, or 1938 to 1941, 1 don't know. 

Mr. Klein. Isn't it a fact that you have taken Superintendent Rich- 
ardson to night clubs ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. How many times ? 

Mr. Sti^omberg. Several times. 

Mr. Klein. Give us an idea of the number. 

Mr. Stromberg. About three times, four times. 

Mr. Klein. Maybe more ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not many more. If it was, maybe once more. 

Mr. Klein. Isn't it a fact that you have taken Richardson to prize 
fights? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, probably. 

Mr. Klein. How many times, Mr. Stromberg ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Several times. 

Mr. Klein. Give us 

Mr. Stromberg. Three, four times, five times. 

Mr. Klein. Over what period? 

Mr. Stromberg. The same period. 

Mr. Klein. As a matter of fact, you have done a lot of entertaitiing 
for Superintendent Richardson, haven't you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I wouldn't say that. I was in New York and hap- 
pened to meet him, and I took him to dinner. 

Mr. Kxein. You mean these were just chance meetings, when you 
took him to the theater? 

Mr. Stromberg. Most of them. 

Mr. Klein. And chance meetings when you took him to the prize 
fights? 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; not at all the times. 

Mr. Klein. Chance meetings when you took him to night clubs ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not all the time. 

Mr. Klein. Weren't they all prearranged meetings? 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; they weren't all prearranged. 

Mr. Klein. How many were? 



242 ORGAl^raZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Strombekg. Probably maybe two or three. 

Mr. Klein. Tell me why you, as a numbers backer in Philadelphia, 
would be associating with and entertaining the superintendent or 
assistant superintendent of police of Philadelphia? 

Mr. Stromberg. He wasn't assistant superintendent of police at 
that time. 

Mr. Klein. He was an inspector? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know if he was a detective or inspector, I 
am not sure. He might have been. I don't think he was an inspector 
at that time. 

Mr. Klein. Wasn't he? 

Mr. Stromberg. I am not sure. 

Mr. Klein. Regardless of his rank, why would you be wining and 
dining and entertaining on somewhat of an elaborate scale, a police 
official of Philadelphia? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, we got to be friendly. I used to meet him 
in Philadelphia and have a, few drinks, and I invited him over to New 
York. 

Mr. Klein. Now, did you ever make him any gifts ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Klein. What did you give him ? 

Mr. Stromberg, Well, I goi him some ties, and shirts I had made 
for him. 

Mr. Klein. Had shirts made for him? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. How many ties? 

Mr. Stromberg. Probably a dozen, maybe 2 dozen, I don't know.. 

Mr. Klein. You don't remember? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein, Over what period? 

Mr. Stromberg. A period of maybe 3 years, 4 years, 

Mr, Klein. Hcav about the shirts? 

Mr. Stromberg. About the same time, 

Mr. Klein, Where did you have those made? 

Mr. Stromberg. In Sulka's, in New York. 

Mr. Klein. Do you remember wliat you paid for them ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Klein. You will agree with me, won't you, it is common 
knowledge, Sulka's is one of the most expensive shirtmakers in New 
York? 

Mr. Stromberg. I wouldn't say that. 

Mr. Gray. I would agree with you. 

Mr. Stromberg. Saks is about the same, and Budcl's. 

Mr. Klein. Pretty high-priced, weren't they? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; they are pretty high-priced. 

Mr. Klein. How many shirts did you give Mr. Richardson? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think a dozen, 

Mr, Klein. A dozen. Could it have been more ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't think so. 

Senator Tobey. What did he do in return for the shirts ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Beg pardon ? 

Senator Tobey. What did he do for you in return for the shirts? 

Mr. Stromberg. What did he do for me ? 

Senator Tobey. Yes. 



ORGA'NIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 243 

Mr. Stromberg. Nothing-. 
Senator Tobey. Then wlij^ give him them ? 
Mr. Stkoimberg. Just as a friend. 

Senator Tobey. Just as a friendly gesture you gave him a dozen silk 
shirts ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not silk shirts. 
Senator Tobey. A dozen Sulka shirts? 

]\Ir. Stromberg. That is right. 

Senator Torey. What was his position? 

Mr. Stromberg. What was his position ? 

Senator Tobey. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. I thought he was a detective at that time. 

Senator Tobey, Detective? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Senator Tobey. Did you think you might curiy a little favor by giv- 
ing a dozen shirts to him, so he would favor some of these clubs you 
were connected with ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, he never did anything for me. 

The Chairman. All right, go ahead, Mr. Klein. 

Mr. Klein. Did you ever give him anything else ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I think I bought him a clock for his place. 

Mr. Gray. What? 

Mr. Stromberg. A clock for his home. 

Mr, Klein. What kind of a clock ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Ordinaiy living room clock. 

Mr. Klein. You spent $150 on that, didn't you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. So that must have been a little out of the ordinary.. 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, it was. 

Mr. Klein. Did you ever buy any gifts, give any gifts to any 
other members of the Philadelphia Police Force ? 

Mr. Stromberg, No, sir. 

Mr, Klein, None at all ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Only to Richardson? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. Did you ever give Richardson any money? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr, Klein, Are you sure of that ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, I am pretty near sure. 

Mr. Klein. Pretty near sure? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Is it possible that maybe you gave Richardson some 
money ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't think I did. 

Mr. Klein. You don't think you did. I ask you to refresh your 
memory. Think. 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't think I give him any money. 

Mr. Klein. Is it possible that you did ? 

The Chairman. Unless he knows, let's go on. 

Mr. Stromberg. It may be, but I wouldn't swear I did, and I 
wouldn't swear I didn't. It is so many years ago. 

Mr. Klein. Did you ever hand Superintendent Richardson a packet 
containing $500 at Shibe Park ? 



244 ORGAIvraZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCEi 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. You used to gamble at Shibe Park, didn't you ? 

Mr. Stro3iberg. Probably made a bet on the ball game. 

Mr. Klein. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. Out at Shibe Park? 

Mr Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Did you ever see Kichardson out there? 

Mr. Stromberg. Probably saw him a few times, but I never gave 
him no money. 

Mr. Klein. You gave him no money at Shibe Park ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Why is it, after all that friendship, and the wining 
and dining, that Richardson now says 

The Chairman. Bring out he did arrest him. 

Mr. Klein. It is in the record. 

The Chairman. Bring it out. 

Mr. Klein. Superintendent Richardson has caused your arrest, 
hasn't he ? 

Mr. Stromberg. He caused my arrest? 

Mr. Klein. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. Wlien? You mean — what was it? 1938? 

Mr. Gray. Somewheres back there. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Gray said he had you arrested. 

Mr. Stromberg. He didn't have me arrested. I was arrested in New 
York, and he brought me back when I was extradited. 

Mr. Klein. IMr. Richardson in his testimony said, "We had him 
arrested and brought back." 

Mr. Stromberg. He did not have me arrested. 

Senator Tobey. Was that after you gave him the 12 shirts and the 
clock ? 

Mr. Kjlein, Yes. 

Senator Tobey. Then I think he is an ungrateful wretch. Maybe 
you ought to have given him a car and some other things, and you 
might have got some results. 

Mr. Klein. What I want to know is, Mr. Stromberg, why, after 
these gifts and this wining and dining, why did Richardson turn on 
you so he now says if you ever show your face in Philadelphia he will 
punch it for you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. He will punch it for me ? 

Mr. Klein. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know. I never heard him say it. 

Mr. Klein. You are not friendly now, are you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I am not friendly ; I am not enemies with him. 

Mr. Klein. Hasn't ho told you not to show your face in Philadel- 
phia? 

Mr. Stromberg. He never told me anything of the kind. 

Mr. Klein. Pie hasn't ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not to me. 

Mr. Klein. Do you feel free to come and go in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Stromberg. It is not Russia. 

Mr. Klein. I know that. That is not the question. The question 
is : Do you feel free to come and go in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes : I do. 



ORGANilZED CRIME IN" INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE 245 

Mr. Klein. When were you there last? 

Mr. Stromberg. Today, yesterday. 

JNlr. Kleix. You were in Philadelphia yesterday ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Conferring with Mr. Gray, I suppose? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

]\Ir. Klein. Conferring with Mr. Gray ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. When were you there the time before that ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Oh, about a week ago, 10 days ago. 

Mr. Klein. Do you have any interest in the Sands Hotel ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I haven't. 

Mr. Klein. None at all? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. Is there anything else? 

Mr. Klein. No ; I have nothing further. 

The Chairman. Mr. Richardson testified at great length before 
the committee up in Philadelphia. I am going to ask the staff of the 
committee to cooperate with the reporter in immediately getting Mr. 
Rosen's testimoii}^ prepared and sent to Mr. Richardson by air mail 
special delivery; and if he wants to add anything to his testimony 
that was given in Philadelphia, we will want him to have an immedi- 
ate chance to do so. 

Can you do that this afternoon, Mr. Reporter? 

The Reporter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairjvian. What shows did you take hun to; do you re- 
member ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I really don't remember. Senator. 

The Chairman. Wliat night clubs? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think I took him to Billy Rose's Horseshoe. 

The Chairman. And the staff will also instruct Mr. Richardson 
that if he wants to testify immediately, or tomorrow, we will make 
arrangements for him to do so. Likewise anybody else's name that 
might be brought out. 

Mr. Rosen, do you know Owney Madden clown at Hot Springs ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I do. 

The Chairman. Do you visit Hot Springs quite frequently ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir, I do. 

The Chairman. Twice a year, once a year ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Mostly once a year. 

The Chairman. Usually you see Frank Costello and Owney Mad- 
den, and fellows who come to Hot Springs at the same time you do ? 

]\Ir. Stromberg. We don't always all come atthe same time, but 
sometimes we happen to meet there. I go any time of year I feel I 
can eet away for a couple of weeks. 

The Chairman. Well, either at Hot Springs or in Florida you see 
Joe Adonis. Avhom you know quite well ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you have any business with him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

The Chairman. And Tony Accardo ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I beg your pardon ? 

The Chairman. Tony Accardo, of Chicago? 



246 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTEiRSTATE COMMERCE, 

Mr. Stromberg. I think I met him once or twice. I have no business 
with him whatsoever. 

The Chairman. The Fischetti boys ? 
Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

The Chairman. Joe Massei, from Detroit ; do you know him? 
Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you knew Lucky Luciano, but not well ? 
Mr. Stromberg. What? 
The Chairman. Lucky Luciano ? 
Mr. Stromberg. I knew him, but not well. 

The Chairman. And you kneM- Siegel, from California, did you? 
Biig'sy Siegel ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I do. 
Senator Tobey. Neddie Herbert ? 
Mr. Stromberg-. I knew him. 
The Chairman. He is from California, too. 
How about Jack Dragna ? Did you know him. 
Mr. Stromberg. I don't think I ever met him. 

The Chairman. These two companies you have — the Jay Lou and 
Lou Jay ; is that right ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right, Senator. 

The Chairman. Is that all the same company, the same outfit? 
Mr. Stromberg. Yes, it is. 
The Chairman. You just have one factory? 
Mr. Stromberg. Beg your pardon? 
The Chairman. You just have one factory? 
Mr, Stromberg. No ; it is two factories. 
The Chairman. Two factories ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes; two factories at that address. We bought 
one and 3 months later bought the other. 

The Chairman. When did you buy those factories ? 
Mr. Stromberg. About a year ago. 
The Chairman. A couple of years ago ? 
Mr. Stromberg. About a year ago. 
The Chapman. They are in New York? 
Mr. Stromberg. The Bronx ; that is right. 

The Chairman. I believe you employ 300 people or something like 
that. 

Mr. Stromberg. Sixty or seventy. 
The Chairman. What ? 
Mr. Stromberg. Sixty or seventy. 

The Chairman. Do you have a factoiy over at Scranton or is that 
your brother's ? 

Mr. Stromberg. ISfy brother's. 

The Chairman. Do you still have the store with Weisberg over at 
Wilmington ? 

Mr. Stro:mberg. No ; I don't. 
The Chairman. That is closed? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know if it is closed. I haven't got anything 
to do with it. 

Senator Tobey. How do you happen to name a business concern 
Lou Jay or Jay Lou ? 

Mr. Stromberg. INIy brother's first name. 
The Chairman. Lou. 



ORGAtMZED CRIME IN INTEiRSTATE COMMERCE- 247 

Senator Tobey. I see. Excuse me. 

The Chairman. Mr. Stroinberg, how did you get the name Nig 
Rosen? Is that just a nicknjtme? 

Mr. Stromberg. Just a nickname. 

The Chairiman. Or was that your name? You were born in 
Russia ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Stromberg. 

The Chairman. I say you were born in Russia? 

Mr. Stro^iberg. Thai is right. 

The Chairman. What was your name over there — Stromberg? 

Mr. Stromberg. Stromberg. 

The Chairman. And Rosen is no name at all ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

The Chairman. Just a nickname. 

I think you said you were naturalized in 1917 or something like 
that. 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; I said my father was naturalized. 

The Chairman. And you came in with his naturalization? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir ; then I got my own. 

The Chairman. Do you have any interest in any stables or any 
race horses? 

Mr. Stromberg. None whatsoever. 

The Chairman. Have you ever had ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

The Chairman. In your testimony you were asked, and we never 
got an answer exactly, about your connection with Jimmy LaFon- 
taine out at the Maryland Athletic Club. You knew him, didn't you? 

Mr. Stromberg. Very well. 

The Chairman. And Mr. Herman Taylor testified you worked some 
for him. Did you have association with LaFontaiiie ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No business whatsoever. 

The Chairman. Do you know anything about him being kidnaped 
at one time ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I heard something about it. 

The Chairman. You didn't have any information about him being 
kidnaped ? 

]Mr. Stromberg. Later on I heard about it. 

The Chairman. But did you do any business with LaFontaine? 

Mr. Stromberg. None whatsoever. 

The Chairman. None at all ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

The Chairman. You were in 

Mr. Stromberg. Pardon me, Senator. I was there and placed some 
bets there once in a while, but had no business with him. 

The Chairman. You what ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Placed bets there. I made a bet on a horse, but 
no partnership or anything. 

The Chairman. You gambled and did business there as anybody 
else would, but didn't have any interest or partnership ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

The Chairman. You knew Neddie Herbert a long time, didn't you? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I did. 

The Chairman. Where did you meet him ? 



248 ORGAlSIilZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Stromberg. We were kids on the East Side together. 
The Chairman. East Side of New York ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

The Chairman. You got sent with him to the Jewish Protectory? 

Mr. Stromberg. I wasn't sent with him. I met him there. 

The Chairman. You saw him there ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

The Chairman. He went on to California, didn't he, and got killed 
with Mickey Cohen ? 

Mr. Stromberg. He got killed. I don't know with who. 

Senator Tobey. He was Mickey's bodyguard, wasn't he ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I wouldn't know that. 

Senator Tobey. He was, as a matter of fact. 

Mr. Stromberg. You ought to know. 

The Chairman. I mean he was with Mickey when he got killed, 
wasn't he ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

The Chairman. Did you see him in California from time to time 
after that? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

The Chairman. I think at this point, so that the testimony will 
make sense, we should release to the public testimony given in execu- 
tive session by Mr. Stiomberg in Philadelphia. Also Mr. Strom- 
berg's record referred to shall be made a part of the record, 

(Mr. Stromberg's previous testimony is included in this volume on 
p. 71 ; his record is identified as "Exhibit No. 5," and appears in the 
appendix on p. 309.) 

The Chairman. Is that all of the questions he was asked and refused 
to answer? 

Mr. Klein. Those are the questions. I have one or two more, if I 
may be permitted. 

The Chairman. We will see if Senator Tobey has any. 

Senator Tobey. Just two or three. 

What is your present business? 

Mr. Stromberg. Dress business. 

Senator Tobey. What is it ? 

Mr. Stromberg, Dress business. 

Senator Tobey. Under this Lou Jay and Jay Lou ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Senator Tobey. What is your present net worth ? 

The Chairman. Senator Tobey, he testified his income tax was 
under investigation, and the counsel advised him not to answer that 
question. So I think in fairness to the witness, since he is under 
investigation 

Senator Tobey. I will be glad to go along on that. I didn't think 
about income. Net worth is capital. 

The Chairman. Do you object to answering that question ? 

Mr. Gray, Answer if you want to. 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer tliat question on the ground it 
miglit incriminate me. 

Senator Tobey. You lived in Philadelphia a good many years, 
didn't you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CREME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 249 

Senator Tobey. And you had a lot of contacts there? 

Mr. Stroimberg. A few. 

Senator Tor.ET. Are you Republican or Democrat ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Neither. 

Senator Tobp^y. What were you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I refuse to answer that. 

Senator Tobey, You voted for the right man always; is that it? 

Mr. Stroiniberg. Do I vote for the right man? 

Senator Tobey. Is that your idea ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I would like to vote for the right man. 

Senator Tobey. In getting things done, you must have had some- 
thing to do with, you must have worked through political people. 

Mr. Stromberg. I never worked there with political people. 

Senator Tobey. Never at all ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Senator Tobey. Any of your lieutenants ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I have no lieutenants. 

Senator Tobey. How did you regard the political ring of Phila- 
delphia — as crooked ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I was interested in it. 

Senator Tobey. Were they interested in you? 

Mr. Stromberg. Were they interested in me? 

Senator Tobey. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know. 

Senator Tobey. Did you make any contributions to them? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Senator Tobey. I never saw you before, and probably never will 
see you again, but I come into this room, and I know you have been a 
witness before this committee before, which I was not privileged to 
attend. Then I glance through the record of the questioning at Phila- 
delphia, and I am amazed that your clientele or your roster of friend- 
ships is rather a remarkable roster of friendships, and the chairman 
of the committee has asked about certain specific individuals, and I 
don't think we have had any witness before us that had a more — how 
shall I put it — low-down crowd of crooks than you have had associ- 
ated with you, according to the record. And on the thesis of the man 
is known by the company he keeps, what do you say about it ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No comment. 

Senator Tobey. No comment? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Senator Tobey. Well, I think the facts speak for themselves. When 
a man has got all this gang of gangsters he plays with and admits 
friendship with, and goes beyond that to the chief of police and 
detectives, and buys a clozen silk shirts, and a dozen Sulka shirts at a 
time, and a clock at $150, and maybe some things we haven't got down 
to mentioning, it looks as if some one is seeking something, that is all. 

But I confess to you, as I read this list of names, as we are trying 
to do a job for the people of this country, and see how far the ramifi- 
cations and constant association and friendship goes, it is rather a sad 
picture, a very sad picture. What do you say, Mr. Counsel, don't you 
agree with me? 

Mr. Gray. I would say to you. Senator, if I had all the information 
that your committee has, maybe I might agree with you. I don't 
know" what information your committee has. 



250 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Tobet. I supposed you represented liim at Philadelphia. 
Mr. Gray. What is that ? 

Senator Tobey. I suppose you represented him at Philadelphia. 
Mr. Gray. In this hearing? 
Senator Tobey. Yes. 
Mr. Gray. Certainly. 

Senator Tobey. Tlien j^ou heard the roster of names, didn't you, 
there^ 

Mr. Gray. I read the loster of names, but I must confess ignorance 
about many of those people, whether they are high class men or low 
class. 

Senator Tobey. If you had been on the committee 

Mr. Gray. I haven't been. This is only the second session, and I 
hope it will be my last, sir. 

Senator Tobey. Thank you very much. 
The Chairman. All right, is there anything else? 
Mr. KxEiN. Mr. Stromberg, why did you get out of the numbers 
business in 1943? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, I had the proposition of going into the dress 
business, and I gave it up. 

Mr. Klein. Was that not just about the time you had a falling out 
with Richardson? 

Mr. Stromberg. I do not know about a falling out with him. I just 
went to New York. New Yoi'k is my home town. I went back to 
New York. 

Mr. Klein. So far as you are concerned, Richardson is still your 
friend ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I am not saying that he is my friend. 
Mr. Klein. Do you know Sam Green ? 
Mr. Stromber. Sam Green ; yes, sir. 
Mr. I^J:^iN. Of Chester? 
Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Klein. How well do you know him ? 
Mr. Stromberg. I know him for about 15 or 20 years. 
Mr. Klein. Are you related to him? 
Mr. Stromberg. None whatever. 
Mr. Klein. Does he go under the name of Joe Dalitz ? 
Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 
Mr. Klein. Who is Joe Dalitz ? 
Mr. Stromberg. Some fellow around Chester. 
. Mr. Klein. Two different people ? 

Mr. Gray. I can say to the committee that they are two different 
people. I have represented Dalitz and I know Green, and I know 
they are not the same men. 

Mr. Rice. Aren't they the ones that own the Sun Hotel in Chester? 
Mr. Gray. Dalitz had a scrap iron place. And the time I repre- 
sented him, which has been a number of years — I am holding my 
hand up because I cannot stand the glare of the lights — I represented 
him, because there were some radios taken into Dalitz' place at night 
and he was charged with receiving stolen goods. I knew Dalitz and 
I know who Green is, because I have seen him in Philadelphia at 
the grand jury investigation. I know they are not the same men^ 
Mr. Rice. Is not Green the man who ran the gambling ? 



ORGAfNilZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 251 

Mr. Gray. I do not have the sliohtest idea, hut I will say that the 
record of examination of Mr. Stroinheig -it Philadelphia, in that 
he was asked about Green and about the hotel, and something at 
Chester, and asked about gambling-, and he answered all of those 
questions. 

Mr. Rice. I might ask him again to straighten us out. Did you 
have a telephone call from Green ? 
ISIr. Stromberg. I might have. 
Mr. Rice. What was that in connection with? 
Mr. Stromberg. None whatever. Just a friendly conversation. 
Mr. Rice. What does Green do at the Sun Hotel I 
Mr. Stromberg. He owns the hotel. 
Mr. Rice. He owns the hotel ? 
Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; that is right, 
Mr. Rice. Is that his only business ? 
Mr. Stromberg. I think so. 
ISIr. Rice. In the hotel business? 
Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Sure he does not have a horse book at the Sun? 
Mr. Stromberg. Not that I know of. 
Mr. Rice. You telephoned to him? 
Mr. Stromberg. I don't know. 
Mr. Gray. He said that you telephoned to him. 
Mr. Stromberg. Not for horses. 
Mr. Rice. You telephoned for horses ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I said I telephoned him. I did, but not pertain- 
ing to any horses. 

Mr. Rice. What were your telephone calls about? 
Mr. Stromberg. I probably was coming down on the train. I 
asked him if he can pick me up, or something, or probably called 
him and said, "Hello." 

Mr. Rice. Would he pick you up ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not all of the time. If he was not busy he would 
meet me at the station. 

Mr. Rice. Let me ask you about this operation with Carbo. You 
say his name was Frank Carbo? 

Mr. Stromberg. His name is Frankie Carbo. 
Mr. Rice. They called him Frankie ? 
Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr. Rice. Is he tied up with the boxing game in Madison Square 
Garden ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is what they say. 
Mr. Rice. That is what they say l 
]Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. You were with the Carbo men in what year ? 
Mr. Stromberg. 1916 and 1947. 
Mr. Rice. 1943 to 1947? 

Mr. Stromberg. From 1943 to 1947, I think I said that. 
Mr. Rice. That was the horse book ? 
Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 
Mr. Rice. What was your job in that horse book? 
Mr. Stromberg. No job at all. I used to come there once in a while. 
They used to take the bets. 



252 ORGADN^IZED CRIME IN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCEi 

Mr. Rice. Yon took the bets ? 

Mr. Stromberg. They did. 

Mr. Rice. What was your piece of it, what was your percentage? 

Mr. Stromberg. One-third. I think I had 40 percent. 

Mr. Rice. What did Carbo have? 

Mr. Stromberg. He had 30 percent. 

Mr. Rice. Who was the other fellow ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Nate Gershon. 

Mr. Rice. Gershon? ♦ 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. He had how much ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Thirty percent. 

Mr. Rice. Pie had the remainder, and who actually ran the book 
for you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Nate Gershon was the one that actually ran it. 

Mr. Rice. You three split the take ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Was that a profitable venture ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Sometimes. 

Mr. Rice. Sometimes? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Over the period it ran, it made money every year, be- 
cause you ran it, running from 1943 to 1947, is that correct? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. And what caused you to discontinue that operation? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, a lot of people were not paying off, and I 
had a lot of money outstanding, and I just quit. 

Mr. Rice. A lot of people did not pay off ? 

Mr. Stro^viberg. Yes. 

Mr. Gray. They just quit. A lot of money outstanding, he said. 

Mr. Rice. 1947 was a good year all around. Wliat caused that? 

]\Ir. Stromberg. It might not have been good with everybody. 

Mr. Rice. We had a witness wdio testified last week that he was a 
lay-off man by the name of Rosenbaum, Louis Rosenbaum. He said 
1947 was his best year. 

Mr. Stromberg. Might have been one man's best year and somebody 
else's was not such a good year. 

Mr. Rice. Maybe he was taking it from you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. How? 

Mr. Rice. Maybe he was taking it from you. 

Mr. Stromberg. He was not taking it from me. 

Mr. Rice. You ran there in the back of an automobile agency, you 
say? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. How did you handle your protection there ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, there was no protection there. I used to pay 
the rent, and he probably took care of somebody there. 

Mr. Rice. Gershon? 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; the owner of the place. 

Mr. Rice. The owner took care of it? 

Mr. Stromberg. He gave me an offer that if I worked there, that he 
had lived there quite a few years, and I would not be bothered. 

Mr. Rice. Was it an open room ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; it was closed. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTEIRSTATE COMxMERCE 253 

Mr. KicE. The customers come in there or just telephonin*^^ 

Mr. Stromberg. Tele])hone. 

Mr. Rice. Take lay-off? 

Mr. Stromberg. Bets, straight bets. 

Mr. Rice. Straiglit bets? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Any lay-off? 

Mr. Stromberg. Once in a while I get a lay-off. 

Mr. Rice. Where would you lay otf? 

Mr. Stromberg. To Frank Erickson. 

Mr. Rice, To Erickson? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Where was he then ? 

Mr. Stromberg. He was around Jersey somewhere. 

Mr. Rice. Over at Cliffside? 

Mr. Stromberg. Probably there. 

Mr. Rice. Sure he was not in Xew York ^ 

Mr, Stromberg. No ; I don't think he was in New York ; no. 

Mr. Rice. Did you take any lay-off i 

Mr. Stromberg. Beg pardon ? 

Mr. Rice. Take any Florida lay-offs? 

Mr. Stromberg. No Florida ; no, I never did. 

Mr. Rice. Benny Kay, how about him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Did I what I 

Mr. Rice. Take any from Benny Kay? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Rice. Who is Benny Kay ? 

Mr. Stromberg. He is known to be a bookmaker. 

Mr. Rice. Known to be a bookmaker i 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know him to be that ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, I know him. 

Mr. Rice. I see that you have had some fairly recent telephone calls 
to Benny Kay. What were those in connection with ? 

Mr, Stromberg. I had what ? 

Mr. Rice. Telephone calls to Benny Kay, 

Mr. Stromberg. I had not. 

Mr. Rice. Never called him in Cliffside? 

Mr. Stromberg. 1 don't say I never called him, I had no calls 
recently. 

Mr. Rice. When was the last time you talked to him I 

Mr. Stromberg. Maybe about 4 years ago. 

Mr. Rice. About 4 years ago? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Not since then? 

Mr. Stromberg, Maybe I might have called him once or twice. 

Mr. Rice. What would that be in connection with \ 

Mr. Stromberg. I beg jonv pardon? 

Mr. Rice. AVhat would that be in connection with? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, I think I called him a few times to get me a 
reservation for friends of mine in Florida, or something like that. 

Mr. Rice. To make reservations? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

68958 — 51— pt. 11 — —17 



254 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTEKSTATE COMMERCE) 

Mr. Rice. Where did he make them ? 

Mr. Stoomberg. I don't know where he made them. Some friends 
used to call me up when they could not get a room, and I would call 
him up. I think he made them at the liotel where he lived. 

Mr. -Rice. Wliere was that, the Sands ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

Mr. Rice. Where ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I really don't remember now. I think it was on 
Twenty-fourth Street, Collins Avenue. 

Mr. Rice. How about Kenny Schwartz ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice, How well? 

Mr. Stromberg. I know him from around the race track. 

Mr. Rice. Where is he ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Is he not a Washington man ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Supposed to be. 

Mr. Rice. What business is he in ? 

Mr. Stromberg. A bettor. 

Mr. Rice. Abettor? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice, Where does he operate, here in Washington ? 

Mr, Stromberg, The only thing I know about him operating is on a 
race track, 

Mr. Rice. Operates — what is he, a come-back man ? 

Mr. Stromberg, He just bets, strictly a bettor. 

Mr, Rice, What business do you have with Kenny Schwartz ? 

Mr. Stromberg. None whatsoever. You hear of a tip, or I hear of a 
tip, and he gives it to me, 

Mr, Rice, Just pays on tips? 

Mr. Stromberg, Yes, 

Mr, Rice, You talked about La Fontaine and you said you heard 
that he had been kidnaped. What did you hear about that? 

Mr. Stromberg. That I heard he was kidnaped. 

Mr. Rice. What was the story; who did it? 

Mr. Stromberg. Who did it ? I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. It never got in the papers ; did it ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not that I knoAV of. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. What was the inside story on the kidnaping of La 
I'ontaine ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know about no inside story. 

Mr. Rice. It happened more than once? 

Mr. Stromberg. Beg pardon? 

Mr. Rice. Did it not happen more than once? 

Mr. STRo^rBERG. I only heard once. 

Mr. Rice. You only lieard about it once ? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Didn't a Philadelphia mob kidnap him and muscle into 
his place ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I would not know that. 

Mr. Rice. What did you hear? 

Mr. Stromberg. That he was kidnaped. 

Mr. Rice. What was the story ; who told you about it ? 



ORGANIZED CREVIE IN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE 255 

Mr. Stro^ihekg. I don't know. I think lie told me the story him- 
self about () months later. 

Mr. EicE. He told you the story ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Bice. What did he tell you? 

Mr. Stromberg. That he was kidnaped. 

Mr. Rice. Where did it happen ? 

Mr. Stromberg. In Washington. 

Mr. Rice. Where were you when he told you about it ? 

Mr. Stromberg. New York. 

Mr. Rice. In New^ York. You met him up there ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Beg pardon ? 

Mr. Rice. Did you meet him in New York ? 

Mr. Stromberg. He happened to come in for a fight. He was a 
man of sports. He used to go to every fight. And I met him there 
and he told me. 

Mr. Rice. Was Mugsy Taylor with him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not that time, I don't believe he was. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat did he tell you ? 

Mr. Stromberg. What— that he gave up $10,000. 

Mr. Rice. He gave them $10,000 ? 

Mr. Sihomberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Hushed it up, did he not? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, that is his business. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. How long did they hold him — who did it — where did 
they take him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know where they took him. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. What did he tell — knock him off right in his place? 

]Mr. Stromberg. He told me they took him in Washington. 

Mr. Rice. Took him in Washington ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. And right off the street ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; coming right out of a moving picture. 

Mr. Rice. Took him out of the moving picture ? 

Mr. Gray. He said coming out of the moving picture. 

Mr. Rice. They scooped him up. He came right on the sidewalk ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Something like that. 

Mr. Rice. And put him in the car ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

]\Ir. Rice. Where did they take him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. How would I know ? 

Mr. Rice. What did he say ? 

Mr. Stromberg. He did not know, himself, I imagine. I did not 
ask him and I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. How did he get sprung ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I wouldn't know that. 

Mr. Rice. AVhat did he tell ? He said he paid $10,000 ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. How did he make the arrangements ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know. How would I know ? 

Mr. Rice. Who else was there when he was telling you about that? 

Mr. Stromberg. Nobody. 

Mr. Rice. Was Mugsy there ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 



256 ORGAXIZED CRIME IX IXTERS'TATE COMMERCE. 

Mr. Rice. Sure about tliat ? 

Mr. Stromrerg. Positive. 

Mr. Rice. Were you all alone? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You must have been more interested in that when a man 
says that he has g^otten kidnaped and paid off. It looks to me you 
would be interested in how he did it. 

Mr. Gray. That is not a question. You do not need to connnent. 

Mr. Stromberg. No comment. 

Mr. Rice. How did he make the arrang'ement ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I would not know. I did not ask him. I told you. 

Mr. Rice. As a result of that, did he say in addition to the $10,000 
he had to give them a piece of the place ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I would not know. He never told me that. 

Mr. Rice. Beg pardon ? 

Mr. Stromberg. He never told me that. 

Mr. Rice. Never told you, just paid the $10,000 and got loose? 

Mr. Strojmberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. How long did they hold him? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know. Probably a day. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Just probably a day ? 

]\Ir. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Did they put a gun on him when they picked him up? 

Mr. Stromberg. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Rice. All he told you he was walking out of the movie theater 
in Washington and they scooped him off the street { 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. And held him for ransom? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Why didn't he report that to J. Edgar Hoover? 

]\Ir. STR03IBERG. I doil't kuOW. 

Mr. Rice. How long ago was that ? 

Mr. Stromberg. About IB or 17 years ago. 

Mr. Rice. No, no ; it was not that long ago. 

Mr. Stromberg. Wasn't it ? Then it was about 18 years ago. 

Mr. Rice. When did he tell you about it ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Seventeen years ago, 18 years ago. 

Mr. Rice. He told you right after it happened ? 

Mr. Stromberg. About 6 months after. 

Mr. Rice. W^hy didn't he report it, did he tell you? 

Mr. Stromberg. Why didn't he report it ? 

Mr. Rice. Why didn't he? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. That was in 1932, 18 years ago. 

Mr. Stromberg. That is what I said. 

Senator Tobey. Has he been a close friend of yours ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I knew him very well. 

Senator Tobey. Known him for years? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Senator Tobey. And so as the next friend he told you all of this, 
is that correct? 

Mr. Stromberg. I met him in New York, and we are in the hotel, 
and he happened to tell me the story that he was kidnapped, that is 



ORGi^NIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE, 257 

right. He was a nmii of very few words and lie didn't say much 
about it. 

Senator Tobey. Did you ever visit the place out here? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes; I did. 

Senator Tobey. And it ran there by silent, tacit permission of the 
law authorities for years, did it not? 

Mr. Stromberg. Probably did. 

Senator Tobey. When it was against the law and the American 
authorities allowed it to run wide open? 

Mr. Stromberg. I suppose so. 

Senator Tobey. Do you think he paid anything for that protec- 
tion ? 

JSIr. Stromberg. I would not know. I never asked him. 

Senator Tobey. Did he tell you about that? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Senator Tobey. Did you have a piece of his establishment? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

Senator Tobey. Any share in his profits? 

Mr. Stromberg. None whatsoever. 

Senator Tobey. Your friendship grew just by your going out there 
and meeting him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. He used to come to New York. He used to like 
baseball and fights, and I got him tickets for the fights. He was a 
pretty old man and I kind of liked him and he called me up. I would 
make reservations for him. 

The Chairman. I want to ask you about one more thing, Mr. 
Rosen. During the war when there was some shortage of liquor in 
California, as well as other places 

Mr. Stromberg. I did not get that. 

The Chairman. During the war when there was some shortage of 
liquor in California as there was in other parts of the country, there 
was some testimony in California that the slot-machine industry out 
there, which was partly under the control of Louie Wolcher, whom 
you know 

Mr. Stromberg. Who? 

The Chairman. Lou Wolcher. 

Mr. Stromberg. I am sorry. I don't recall that name. I don't 
think I ever knew him. 

The Chairman. You know AVilliam Gersh ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You don't know William Gersh ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; unless I knew him by a different name. 

The Chairman. Do vou know a fellow who has the magazine The 
Cash Box ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

The Cfiairman. Then if you do not know, you would not know any- 
thing about this. 

Mr. Stromberg. I was only out to California once for a couple of 
days. 

The Chairman. Of course. The Cash Box, I believe, operates hi 
Chicago and Philadeliihia and maybe New York. That is a magazme. 

Mr. Stromberg. I would not know that, Senator. Never heard of it 
in Philadelphia. 



258 ORGAA'IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEBCEi 

The Chatrman. I notice here that you apparently have had some 
calls from Little xlii^ie. Where did you know him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. From New York. 

The Chairman. In New York. Is he a good friend of yours? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; a pretty good friend. 

The Chairman. Is Abner Longy Zwillman a good friend of yours ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

The Chairman. The Moretti boys ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; we are friendly. 

The Chairman. Tiny Lynch ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Lynch? I don't know if I know Lynch or not. 
I don't know. I may know him. I don't know. 

The ChairMx\.n. Do you know a fellow named Courtney, who lives 
in New York ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Who? 

The Chairman. A fellow named Courtney who has something to do 
with horse books in New York ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think I do. 

The Chairman. You know him? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How about Big Al Polizzi, who was here this morning ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I said I did. 

Mr. Eice. You said you did. Wliere did you meet him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think in Florida I met him. 

Mr. Rice. In Florida. Whereabouts? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. At the Sands Hotel ? 

Mr. Stromberg. No ; I did not meet him at the Sands. I saw him 
at the Sands a few times. 

Mr. Rice. You saw him at the Sands? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 
. Mr. Rice. Did you stay in room 601 ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Did I ever stay? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. Not that I can recall. 

Mr. Gray. He has been asked all of those questions. I do not mind 
repeating them. 

Mr. Rice. He has been asked about 601. 

Mr. Gray. And all of the other questions that you have asked him. 
I have no objection. I am not raising the question. I am just calling 
your attention to it. 

Mr. Rice. How about Jack Friedlander, do you know him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I knew him from around New York. 

Mr. Rice. From around New York? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. In what connection did you know him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Just "Hello." 

Mr. Rice. Just "Hello?" 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr. Rice. Well now, what do you mean, just "Hello?" 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, just like you would know somebody on the 
street, and not very friendly. You w^ould say "Hello" and just keep 
on going, but not very friendly with him. 

Mr. Rice. Have you seen him lately ? 



ORGATs^IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 259 

Mr. Stkojmbkkg. I have not seen him for a couple of years. 

Mr. Rice. Where did yon last see him? 

Mr. Stromukkg. I think I saw him in Floi-ida. 

Mr. Rk^e. In Florida ? 

Mr. STKOMBEmi. I tiiink the last time was the Oranj^e Bowl game 
two winters ago. 

Mr. Rice. Did yon ever see him around the Sands? 

Mr. Stromp.ekg. I probably saw him around it, going into it, but 
not in the Sands. I might have, into the barber shop. 

Mr. Rice. Ever go to his house ? 

Mr. Stromberg. To his house, never. 

Mr. Rice. Never been to his home? 

Mr. Stromuerg. Never. 

Mr. Rice. What business is he in? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know what business, 

Mr. Rice. When you knew him to say "Hello," what business was 
he in? 

Mr. Stro:mberg. When I knew him in New York I thought he was 
in the real-estate business. He had some property. 

Mr. Rice. And in Florida what business was he in? 

Mr. Stromberg. In Florida, real estate, I thought he had. 

Mr. Rice. Real estate? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

The Chairman. Do you know Irving Sherman in New York ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

The Chairman. How well do you know him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not very well. I know him. 

The Chairman. Ever had business transactions with him? 

Mr. Stromberg. No. 

The Chairman. Just friendly? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

The Chairman. Visits? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did he come to your house? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, we never went to each other's houses. 

The Chairman. You just see him at meetings? 

Mr. Stromber. No meetings ; probably see him in a restaurant, see 
him at a fight, a ball game, or something, see him at a bar once in a 
while. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. How about Julius Fink, Paul Moore Blinky ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I know him. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What business is he in ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Vegetable business, fruit, fruit and produce. 

Mr. Rice. Where? 

Mr. Stromberg. In Baltimore. 

Mr. Rice. Sure about that? 

Mr. Stromberg. Positive. 

Mr. Rice. What is the name of the company ?^ 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know, but I know he is a fruit and produce. 

Mr. Rice. Ever been a bookie ? 



260 0RGA:^^lIZED crime ix in"teirstate commerce 

Mr. Stromberg. Has he ever been a bokkie ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. When you were in the bookie business, did you do business 
with him ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I never did no business with him, no; I didn't do 
none. 

Mr, Rice. Did you ever do any business with him ; is it possible ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I never did. 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Football Chic Berman ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Chicie Berman. I know of him but not personally. 

Mr. Rice. Did you meet him in Hot Springs not long ago? 

Mr. Stromberg. I know of him. I probably saw him in Hot Springs 
but I wouldn't swear that I did. 

Mr. Rice. Where is he from ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I think he is from Minneapolis. 

Mr. Rice. Minneapolis? 

Mr. Stromberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. He is the football odds maker is he not ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Rice. What do you know him to be ? 

Mr. Stromberg. What do I know him to be ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't know. I said I don't know him very well, 

Mr. Rice. Were you down talking only to Berman? 

Mr. Stromberg. Was Berman alone? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Stromberg. Not that I know of. 

Mr, Rice. You were there? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, I said I was there. 

Mr. Rice. Wlien you went to see Owney Madden ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I never went to see Owney Madden. Never went 
to see him. 

Mr. Rice. Saw him when you were down there ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I went to the only restaurant in that town and 
everybody congregates there. 

Mr. Rice. They have a regular convention there ? 

Mr. Stromberg. Everybody from every State in the Union goes to 
that restaurant. 

Mr. Rice. Berman was there and Owney ? 

Mr. Stromberg. I did not say I saw Berman there. 

Mr. Rice. Weisberg was there? 

Mr. Stromberg. If he was there. 

Mr. Rice. Hoffman? 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. I never saw Cappy Hoffman in Hot 
Springs. 

Senator Tobey. Do you know Virginia Hill? 

Mr. Stromberg. I heard of her by reputation. 

Senator Tobey. Never met her? * 

Mr. Stromberg. No, sir. 

The Chairman. That is all, Mr. Stromberg. Senator Tobey and I 
have conferred informally and we feel that so far as this committee 
is concerned that you have answered the questions that we wanted 



ORGA]\'lZED CRIME IN INTEiRSTATE COMMERCE 261 

to ask you. So that we will recoininond to the full connnittee that 
no further proceedings be taken against you so far as the contempt is 
concerned. 

Senator Tobey. The Senator is speaking to you. 

Mr. Gray. He said that you had answered the questions, and so 
far as the subconnnittee was concerned they would recommend to the 
full committee that no action be taken. 

Mr. Stromberg. Thank you very much. 

The Chairman. That does not mean, of course, that we think that 
Mr. Rosen is a very good citizen, and that he leads an exemplary life 
or has all of his life. 

Mr. Gray. The newspapers of Philadelphia seem to think 

The Chairman. It may be possible that we may want ]Mr. Rosen 
for further questioning, so that the subpena will be continued, ]Mr. 
Gray. 

Mr. Gray. If I am advised by counsel that you want him we will 
arrange a time satisfactory to the committee and be here. 

The Chairman. Thank you, sir. All right. 

Is Mr. Weisberg here ^ 

Do you represent Mr. Weisberg? 

Mr. Gray. You know I represented both of them before the com- 
mittee in Philadelphia, the only two I did represent. 

The Chairman. You have been sworn, but we will swear you 
again. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give this 
committee will be the whole truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WEISBERG, PHILADELPHIA, 
PA., ACCOMPANIED BY WILLIAM A. GRAY, ATTORNEY, PHILA- 
DELPHIA, PA. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Klein. Will you proceed with Mr. 
Weisberg ? 

Mr. Klein. You have testified in Philadelphia on the following 
day after Mr. Stromberg? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. And Mr. Halley had discussed with you your participa- 
tion in it. Before I get to that, is your address still the same, 50th 
and Spruce, Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Halley had talked to you about your participation 
in the clothing business with Mr. Stromberg. 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. And he had come to a question, "Since then," meaning 
about 7 or 8 years ago, "had you done nothing to earn a living at all V 
And you refused to answer that question. Would you care to answer 
it now? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. Well, if I answered to where you explained 
it, I will correct myself with that. I believe we opened a place of 
business in 1040. Stromberg left in '42 or '43. and I continued with it, 
with my brother-in-law and stayed there until the^end of "47. 

Mr. Klein. Have you done anything since 1947? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir: played horses. 

Mr. Klein. Where ? 



262 0RGA3SriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCEi 

Mr. Weisberg. The race tracks. 

Mr. Klein. Which tracks ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Florida tracks, New York tracks, Jersey tracks. 

Mr. Klein. Have you made any bets on horses away from the 
track? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Not at all ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Since 1947? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Did you make any before that ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir; not aw^ay from the track. 

Mr. Klein. Do you mean to say you have never bet on a horse 
away from the track? 

Mr. Weisberg. My business is very undesirable. I play the horses 
to show, and no bookmaker will take them. 

Senator Tobey. What does to show mean ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Third. 

Mr. Gray. Anywhere, one, two, three. 

Mr. I^EiN. Why do you follow that particular system? 

Mr. Weisberg. Because it pays off. 

Mr. Klein. Does it pay you off ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Are you a man of substance today ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Pardon? 

Mr. Klein. Are you a man of substance today? 

Mr. Weisberg. What do 3^ou mean by substance ? 

Mr. Klein. I mean are you a well-to-do man ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. You said it paid off ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, I earned a good living. 

Mr. Klein. Betting horses to show ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Senator Tobey. Why is it not just as easy to pick one to win as to 
play third? 

Mr. Weisberg. You have three different positions. They run sec- 
ond, you have three different holes from the fall, and they fall in 
the third hole, you collect the money. 

Mr. Klein. You have made your living exclusively by betting on 
horses ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. You must have made a study of it ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Quite a little. 

Mr. Klein. It is a profession with you ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. And you are a pretty good handicapper ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Fair. 

Mr. Klein. Why then if you can bet them to show and make money 
at it can't you bet them to win and make money at it ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I never figured that out. I know it is easier. You 
have three different holes, like I said before. You have three chances. 
I am sorry if I expressed myself wrong. I mean with the bulbs. 

The Chairman. Let us get the pictures taken. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE 263 

Mr. Klein. Have you always made your uiouey bettiug horses^ 

Mr. Weisberg. Quite a few years, yes. 

Mr. Klein. Did you ever do auythiutr else? 

Mr. Weisberg. I just told you I had a place of business. 

Mr. Klein. Ever gamble in any other forms ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Not very much, other than horses. 

Mr. Klein. Not very much? 

JSIr. Weisberg. No. 

Mr. Klein. Did you gamble at all in other forms ? 

Mr. Weisberg. None outside of playing cards. 

:Mr. Klein. Not at all ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Outside of playing cards. 

Mr. KJLEiN. Is it not a fact — we will hold that for a little while. 
Let me get these questions, first, these contempt questions. v; 

JNIr. Weisberg. All right. 

JNIr. Klein. You had given Mr. Halley a resume of your life and 
he took you up to 1934, or was it 1931, and he said, in those days 
what was jonv business, that is, 1931, and you refused to answer. 
What was your business in 1931 ? 

Mr. Weisberg. In '31 I was a chauffeur for Herman Taylor. 

Mr. Klein. How long had you been chauffeur for Herman Taylor? 

Mr. Weisberg. I think from '31 until '35, 1 guess. 

Mr. Kx,EiN. Four years? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, something like that. 

Mr. Klein. Were you, also, his bodyguard? 

Mr. Weisberg. I am no bodyguard for no one. 

Mr. Klein. No one ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Ever carry a gun? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir, never. 

Mr. Klein. Never? 

Mr. Weisberg. Never. 

Mr. Klein. Never had a gun in your hand? 

Mr. AVeisberg. Yes; I have had a" gun in my hand, 4th of July when 
I was a boy I had a cap pistol, the closest I got to a gun. 

Mr. Klein. Is that all? 

Mr. Weisberg. I am sincere when I say that. 

Mr. Klein. Is that all? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is all ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. As a matter of fact, while you were a chauffeur for 
Mr. Taylor did you ever have occasion to meet Al Capone ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Is it not a fact that you met Al Capone at the gates of 
Eastern State Penitentiary in Philadelphia when he was released and 
took him to Taylor's house? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is not true. 

Mr. Klein. That is not true? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is not true. 

Mr. Klein. What prison was it? 

Mr. Weisberg. What prison I met him ? 

M'r. Klein. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. I met him in no prison. 

Mr. Klein. Did you know Al Capone ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No; not personally. 



264 ORGAIS-'IZED CRIME IX INTEiRSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Klein. Never met him? 

Mr. Weisberg. Never saw him personally in my life. 

Mr. I^EiN. You know Mugsy Taylor? 

Mr. Weisberg. Very well. 

Mr. Klein. Did you see Capone with Taylor? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How do you account for that story getting around Phil- 
adelphia that you met Capone when he was locked up there : do you 
remember that ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I remember from reading the newspapers; yes. 

Mr. Rice. How do you account for your name being linked to that 
story ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Nothing to it at all? 

Mr. Weisberg. Nothing at all. 

Mr. Rice. You^say you had a cap gun in your hand on the 4th of 
July there at one time? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Is that the same gun you carried when you were arrested 
on May 27, 193o, for firearms act and robbery by hold-up. and you 
got 3 years' probation ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is not the way it was put to me. I was arrested 
in an automobile that I borrowed, and in this automobile there was a 
gun concealed. It took the detectives 3 days. AVhether they found it 
or not, I don't know, but they come up with a gun. 

Mr. Rice. They came up with a gun ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. And the fellow who owns the automobile 
admitted it belonged to him. 

Mr. Rici-:. Who was that, Warren? 

Mr. Weisberg. No; I forget the fellow's name. I think the fellow's 
name was Fisher, F-i-s-h-e-r. 

Mr. Rice. What was that, a bum rap? 

Mr. Weisberg. Bum rap? 

Mr. Rice. Yes; it wasn't your gun, was it ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I did not know nothing about it. It was not mine. 

Mr. Rice. We are getting a series of bum raps through here in the 
last couple of days. 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know anything about it. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Halley asked you whether you were in the gam- 
bling business before 193o, and you refused to answer that. Were you 
in the gambling business before 193o? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir; other than playing horses; no. sir. 

Mr. Klein. Other than what ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Other than playing horses. 

Mr. Klein. But you did not do it as a business ? 

Mr. Gray. Before 1933. 

Mr. Weisberg. Before 1933, no. 

Mr. Klein, Have j^ou since then had any interest in the gambling 
business ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. None at all ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Halley asked you about your knowledge of the 
Maryland Athletic Club. By the wav, you heard Mr. Stromberg 
testify? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE 265 

Mr. Weinberg. Yes I did. 

Mr. Klein. He said tliat he was familiar witli tlie Maryland 
Athletic Club? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Halley asked yon whether you ever owned any part 
of the Maryland Athletic Club. Did you ever i 

]Mr. Weisberg. Never in my life. 

Mr. Klein. Then why did you refuse to answer Mr. Halley's ques- 
tion on the ground that it might incriminate you of a Federal oft'ense? 

]Mr. Weisberg. Well, I was evidently confused. And. like Strom- 
berg testified, and I just refused to answer it. 

Mr. Klein. You and he got confused together? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know whether we do or not. I know I was 
confused. I am a little nervous up here, too. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Halley asked you whether you had any financial 
transactions other than betting at a dice game with Jimmy LaFon- 
taine. Apparently you had testified that you had or were in a crap 
game there in the Maryland Athletic Club in 1945 and 1946? 

]Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Ki^iN. Mr. Halley asked whether you had any other financial 
transaction. Did you? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. sir. 

Mr. Klein. Ever place any horse bets there ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. How many ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, I wouldn't remember how many. It is 4 or 
5 years ago. I was there quite a few times. 

Mr. Klein. Then you do bet away from the track, do you ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes; this particular time I did; yes. 

Mr. Klein. All right; now, Mr.. Halley further asked you whether 
you ever received any money from Jimmy LaFontaine and you refused. 
Did you ever ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I did not. 

ISIr. Klein. Never got any money ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. From Jimmy LaFontaine? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. How about paid off on bets; did he ever pay off any 
bets? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. You never won ? 

Mr. AVeisberg. I win some bets in the place. He never paid me. 

Mr. Klein. He never paid you personally? 

]Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Then why did you refuse to answer that question on 
the ground that it might incriminate you ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I told you that I was a little confused and I just 
refused to answer it. 

Mr. Klein. The rest of these questions you answered very well. 
Mr. Halley asked you about your associations with various and sundry 
people like Meyer Lansky, and you said you thought Mr. Stromberg 
had introduced you. Do you know him? You knew John de Young 
and you knew John Hackett, who were detectives in Philadelphia, 



266 ORGADSniZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 

and you had done some business with them at their automobile-repair 
place in Media? 

Mr. Weisberg. What did you say ? I done some what ? 

Mr. Klein. You did some business with the automobile-repair 
place ; you had your car repaired there ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. And they are detectives, are they not? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Then Mr. Halley asked you whether you had ever given 
a gift to any police officer in Philadelphia, and you declined to answer 
that one. Have you ever given any gifts to police officers in Phila- 
delphia ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Why did you decline to answer that ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, I lived there for so many years I wanted to 
think it over; I wanted to make sure. Now I am ready to tell you 
that I never did. 

Mr. Klein. You thought it over ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Well, now, Mr. Stromberg also thought it over, and 
after he thought it over and came back here totlay he decided that he 
had given some gifts to a police officer in Philadelphia. 

Mr. Weisberg. That is Mr. Stromberg. 

Mr. Klein. I see. You carried on separate operations? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Now, Mr. Halley discussed with you your friendship 
for Frank Palermo. 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Who is Frank Palermo? 

Mr. Weisberg. He is a fellow I have known all of my life in Phila- 
delphia. 

Mr. Klein. What does he do ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Fight manager. 

Mr. Klein. Does he do anything else ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Not that I know, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Does not? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. 

Mr. Klein. What business is he in ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Fight manager. 

Mr. Rice. Are you in the fight business ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. 

Mr. Rice. What business do you do with Blinky Palermo ? 

Mr. Weisberg. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Rice. None whatsoever? 

Mr. Weisberg. Other than buying tickets off him for a fight. 

Mr. Rice. Does he put fights on ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Pardon? 

Mr. Rice. How often does he put fights on ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I wouldn't know that. 

Mr. Rice. You know quite a bit about him. I noticed according to 
the telephone records you called him 16 times in 1 month in 1950. 

Mr. Weisberg. I told you we are very friendly. I was born and 
raised with him. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE 267 

Mr. Rice. Born and raised with him ? 

iMr. Weisijerg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What did you telephone to him 16 times in 1 month about ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I wouldn't know that. 

Mr. Rice. You would know. You made the calls. 

Mr. Weisberg. Other than friendly calls, there was nothing else 
to it. 

ISIr. Rice. What do you talk about ? 

Mr. Weisberg. What do I talk about ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. How this fighter do today. 

Mr. Rice. Talk about how he is doing to fix the fight; ever talk 
about that? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir ; I don't bet on fights, and I never fixed no 
fights, and I know nothing about fights. 

Mr. Rice. What do you talk about 16 times in a month ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I woukhi't remember, sir, 16 times a month what 
I would talk about other than his fight business. 

Mr. Rice. Just about fight business, except you do not bet on them? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. I don't bet on the fights. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat do you talk about when you talk about the fight 
business ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I would not remember, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You say you were born and raised with him? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Where were you born ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Philadelphia. 

Mr. Rice. Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I was born in Russia, but I come to Philadelphia 
when I was 6 months old, 

Mr. Rice. Then you were reborn ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir ; that is right. 

Mr. Klei3^. Mr. Halley asked you whether you had ever had any 
business relationship with Palermo in matters which, while they 
might not constitute violations or they might constitute violations 
of State law, did not constitute violations of Federal law, and you 
refused to answer that. Have you had any illegal relationships with 
Mr. Palermo? 

Mr. Weisberg. Never had no business direct, indirect, or otherwise 
with Frank Palermo. 

Mr. Klein. Did you not know, as a matter of fact, that Palermo is 
the numbers banker in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I couldn't swear to that. 

Mr. Klein. Is it common knowledge? 

Mr. Weisberg. About being common knowledge, other than what I 
saw in the newspapers, I would not know. 

Mr. Klein. The only information you have about Frank Palermo's 
connection with the numbers business is what you read in the news- 
papers ? 

Mr. Weisberg, That is right. 

Mr. Klein. You are sure of that? 

Mr. Weisberg. I am positive. 

Mr. Klein. These 16 calls that Mr. Rice speaks about, they could 
not have been in connection with the numbers business ? 



268 ORGATS^IZED CRIME IN laSTTEfRSTATE COMMERCE, 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir; positively not. 

Mr. Kletn. You swear under oath you have notliing to do with the 
numbers business in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Have you ever had ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Kleix. You have had? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Were you a numbers writer? 

Mr. W^EiSBERG. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Were you a numbers banker? 

Mr. Weisberg. I was in partners with a fellow. I think, in 1936 or 
1937. 

Mr. Klein. How long did that partnership last ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Maybe about between a year and two. 

Mr. Klein. Who were you in partnership with ? 

Mr. Weisberg. A man by the name of James Tendler. 

Mr. Klein. James Tendler? 

Mr. Weisberg. Tendler; yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Is he any relative of Lew Tendler, the fighter? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Who is James Tendler ? 

Mr. Weisberg. The last time I — I haven't seen him for 8 or 10 
years — the last time I knew of James Tendler he had a newsstand at 
Eleventh and Market. 

Mr. Klein. Why did you get out of the business ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I got broke. 

Mr. Klein. You went broke? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. And were in it for 2 years ? 

]Mr. Weisberg. Yes ; that is right ; close to 2 years. 

Mr. Klein. You have not been in it since ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Directly or indirectly ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. How did you operate during those 2 years? 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, he had a book of his own between $100 and 
$150 a day. He used to pick it up, he used to run it off, and he used to 
bring me the returns. I put the money up for it. 

Mr. Klein. How much did von put up ? 

Mr. Weisberg. About $1,500. 

Mr. Klein. And you held on for 2 years on $1,500 capital ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Did you make any money out of it ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Made a living. 

Mr. Klein. Made a liAnng? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. But you went broke ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. I lived a little above my means. When I win 
something I spend it. 

Mr. Klein. You do that today ? 

Mr. AVeisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Still live above your means? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 269 

Mr. Klein. By the way, when you go to Fh)ii(hi, where do j^ou 
stay ? 

Mr. Weinberg. Well, so far as my memory can serve me, in 1946 
and '47 and *48 I stayed at the Sands Hotel. In '49 I stayed at the 
San Souci. 

Mr. Klein. The San Souci is a brand-new one ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Last year was the first year. 

Mr. Klein. And quite high-priced? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes; pretty expensive. 

Mr. Klein. When you went to the Sands Hotel you had friends 
there ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Did vou have the same friends that Mr. Stromberg; 
had? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Who were your friends? 

Mr. Weisberg. David Glass and Ben Street. 

Mr. Klein. They own part of the place ; do they not ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Do you? 

Mr. AVeisberg. No. 

Mr. Klein. You stayed in Mr. Glass' own room, 601 ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That was my room. 

Mr. Klein. That was your room ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. How much did you pay for it? 

Mr. Weisberg. There was no charge. 

Mr. Klein. No charge ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. They had you as their guest? 

Mr. Weisberg. I was not a guest. I brought the hotel some busi- 
ness. I brought some business to the bar. In return they give me 
my board — me and my wife. 

Mr. Klein. Whom did you bring ? 

Mr. Weisberg. My wife. 

Mr. Klein. Whom did you bring ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Oh, oh. 

Mr. Klein. The business. 

Mr. Weisberg. I know a lot of people in Philadelphia, and whoever 
I would meet I would ask them to come in and have a drink. 

Mr. Klein. Who did you bring? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't remember who I brought. 

Mr. Klein. Well, now, look 

Mr. W^eisberg. Three years; I brought Herman Taylor and his 
family. 

Mr. Klein. You had Herman Taylor down? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Herman knew Street and Glass before you brought him 
down there ; did he not ? 

Mr. Weisber(j. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. Do you take credit for introducing them? 

Mr. Weisberg. 1 believe I did introduce them to both of them. 

Mr. Klein. You did ? 

68958 — 51 — i>t. 11 18 



270 ORGA]SnZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Weisberg. I think I did ; yes. 

Mr. Klein. Who else did you take ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, offhand, I would not remember. 

Mr. Klein. You mean in 3 years you do not remember a single 
individual ^ 

Mr. Weisberg. When I say "take," I would ask them to come down, 
and they get at the bar and have a few drinks. 

Mr. Klein. I understand that, but who? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't remember who. 

Mr. Klein. You know a lot of people ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I know a lot of people. A lot of people know me, 
but I would not remember who in 3 years — don't remember. 

Mr, Klein. Are you responsible for Al Polizzi going down? 

Mr. Weisberg. No ; know him by sight only. 

Mr. Klein. You were not responsible for his going? 

Mr. Weisberg. I say I knew him. That is where I saw him. First 
time I ever saw him was at the Sands Hotel. 

Mr. Klein, You heard me reel off a whole string of names to Mr. 
Stromberg, that had been at the Sands Hotel whom he knew. Did 
you not hear a single one except Herman Taylor you might have in- 
duced to go there with this free rent for three seasons and free food? 

Mr. Weisberg. No food; just the room, incidentals. 

Mr. Klein. No liquor? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. You paid for that? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir ; paid for everything but the room. 

Mr. Klein. GOl is ]NIr. Glass' own room ; is it not ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That was my room when I was there. 

Mr. Klein. When you were there? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. And who lives in it the rest of the year ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know that; I would not know. 

Mr. Klein. Senator Kefauver in Philadelphia asked you what you 
considered your gross worth. And, before I ask you, I want to ask, 
Are you under investigation by the income-tax people? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't think I am, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Have you any objection to answering that question? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. What is your net worth today ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, I will start this way: I believe my wife has 
got three or four thousand dollars worth of bonds that she accumu- 
lated over a period of years since the last war, and maybe two or three 
thousand dollars in cash. I have no money at all. 

Mr. Klein. None at all ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Do you drive a car ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Klein. What make? 

Mr, Weisberg, Cadillac, 

Mr. Klein. What year? 

Mr. Weisberg. 1949. 

Mr. Klein. What model ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Four-door sedan* 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 271 

Mr. Klein. Who paid for that ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I did. 

Mr. Klein. How much? 

Mr. Wrisberg. I think it cost $3,700. 

Mr. Klein. Where did you get the money ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Where did I get the money ? 

Mr. Klein. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. Playing horses. 

Mr. Ki-ein. You won $3,700 and bought a Cadillac? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. 

Mr. Gray. You do not mean by that question you won $3,700 at one 
time or 1 day ? 

Mr. Klein. Won $3,700. 

Mr. Weisberg. I bought it on notes to begin with, Mr. Klein. 

Mr. Klein. Pardon? 

Mr. Weisberg. I bought the car to pay out. 

Mr. Klein. But you paid for it since ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. You have no regular employment. Do you have any- 
thing to bet? 

Mr. Weisberg. Right now I am unemployed. 

Mr. Klein. In addition to your trip to Florida last year, you went 
to Florida this year ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No; I did not. 

Mr. Klein. You did not go? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. 

Mr. Klein. Where did you go ? To Hot Springs? 

Mr. Weisberg. Did not go no place. 

Mr. Klein. You did not have any winter vacation this year ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

IMr. Klein. You are under subpena to a Federal grand jury in 
Philadelphia? 

JMr. Weisberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. You have been for some months? 

Mr. Weisberg. I could have left, if I wanted to; yes. I mean, I 
got permission to leave if I wanted to. 

Mr. Klein, The only reason you did not go was because 

Mr. Weisberg. Little short of money. 

Mr. Klein. All right. Are you looking for work ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I am looking for — trying to get a business of some 
kind, since I am all right in Philadelphia ; yes. 

Mr. Klein. How are you going to go into business? You say you 
have no capital. 

Mr. Weisberg. Maybe I can borrow some money. 

Mr. Klein. Who do you borrow from ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Who ? 

Mr. Klein. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, the only one that I would have in mind now 
would be Herman Taylor. 

Mr. Klein. Herman Taylor? 

Mt. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. You are close enough to Taylor to have him lend you 
money ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 



272 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Klein. Has he loaned you money in the past? 

Mr. Weisberg. He loaned me money on quite a few occasions ; yes. 

Mr. Klein. Substantial sums? 

Mr. Weisberg. $500, $1,000. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Stromberg ever lend you money? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes ; a few occasions. 

Mr. Klein. How much ( 

Mr. Weisberg. $500. 

Mr. Klein. You paid them all back ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. I don't know whether there is a little differ- 
ence yet or not. I think there is a little difference. 

Mr. Klein. You owe him some? 

Mr. Weisberg. A little bit. 

Mr. Klein. How about Mr, Hoffman? Did he ever lend you 
money ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. You list yourself on your tax returns as a "commission 
merchant."' 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. 

Mr. Klein. What is the nature of that business? 

Mr. Weisberg. Horse playing. 

Mr. Klein. You took bets for others ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't book no bets. 

Mr. Klein. How do you account for commissions? 

Mr. Weisberg. Well,'that is how 1 listed it. 

Mr. Klein. That is how you listed it ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. It might not be correct. 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, I am sorry, I have been listing that way for 15,, 
16 yeai-s, and no one ever said anything to m.e about it. 

Mr. Klein. In 1936 you listed as income commissions from various 
bureaus, $9,200; what does that mean? 

Mr. Weisberg. Various what? 

Mr. Klein. Bureaus. 

Mr. Weisberg. I never read that. Various sources, maybe. 

Senator Tobey. Maybe he took it out of the bureau drawers. 

Mr. Klein. Let us assume that it is various sources. What are these 
commissions ? AVhat did you do that entitled you to earn commissions ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, I termed it as "commission." 

Mr. Klein. Actually it was winning horse races? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. That is what you say now ? 

Mr, Weisberg. That is right, 

Mr. Klein. Would the same thing be true in 1947 when you listed 
$75 less tlian you listed in 1946 ? 

Mr. Weisberg. The same source. 

Mr. Klein. The same source. How does it happen that in 1946 
and 1947 you won almost the same amount, $9,200 except for the $75 ? 

Mr. Weisberg. "Wliat is the except? You mean less? 

Mr. Klein. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. Things like that do happen. 

Mr. Klein. Just comes out that way? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 



ORGATSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 273 

Mr. Kleix. How about 1948, wliat was your commission in 1948? 

Mr. Weisbero. What were my connnissions ? 

Mr. Klein. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. I think about fourteen, fifteen thousand dollars. 

Mr. Klein. In 1948 ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I am not sure. 

Mr. Klein. In 1949^ 

Mr. Weisberg. 1949, I think around eighteen or nineteen thousand 
dollars, I guess. 

Mr. Klein, Going up? 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, I got a little luckier. 

Mr. Klein. How about 1950? 

Mr. Weisberg. I have not turned my income-tax sheet in yet. 

Mr. Klein. Have 3^ou any idea what vou are going to report for 
1950? 

Mr. Weisberg. I won't know. I had a very poor year. 

Mr. Klein. A poor year? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is there anything else? 

Mr. Klein. I wanted to get through these questions. That appears 
to be the last question. Senator. Mr. Rice may have something. 

The Chairman. Mr. Rice, have you some questions? 

Mr. Rice. I have a couple of questions. Do vou know Mugsy 
Taylor? 

Mr. Weisberg. Pardon i 

Mr. Rice. You said you knew Mugsy Taylor? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And were you down at the Maryland Athletic Club with 
Mugsy ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't ever remember seeing him there, 

Mr. Rice, When ^ou were down at La Fontaine's place here out- 
side of Washington, who were you with? 

Mr, Weisberc;. Well, I will tell you, it is so long ago, I wouldn't 
remember them names, maybe some horse players or handicappers. 

Mr. Rice. Were you down with Nig Rosen? 

Mr. Weisberg. No : never. 

Mr, Rice, Never were with him there? 

Mr. Weisberg, Not there; no sir, 

Mr. Rice. Did La Fontaine tell you about being kidnaped? 

Mr. Weisberg, I don't know nothing about that, 

Mr, Rice, You do not know anything about that? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr, Rice, Did you ever hear it? 

My. Weisberg, No, sir; first I heard it in here, 

Mr. Rice. You heard it the first time you heard it here ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Fii-st time in my life I knew it. 

Mr. Rice. Never heard that a"^Philadelphia mob kidnaped him? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. 

Mr. Rice. Who is the Philadelphia mob? 

Mr. Weisberg. Who is who ? 
' Mr. Rice. Who is the Philadelphia mob? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know any mobs in Philadelphia. 

Mr. Rice. You were in touch Avith Herbert's Jewelry Store over in 
Jersey. Who is that? 



274 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Weisberg. Herbert's Jewelry Store? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Neddie Herbert ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes ; I knew him. I knew who he was. 

Mr. Rice. What business was he in ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That I would not know, sir. I evidently saw him 
three times in my life. 

Mr. Rice. I see w^iere you telephoned to Herbert's Jewelry Shop in 
Jersey City. 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't recall that, sir. 

Mr. Rice. No connection with Neddie Herbert? 

My. Weisberg. No, sir ; none whatsoever. 

Mr. Rice. You probably do not even know what I am talking about, 
do you ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, I don't. 

Mr. Rice. You called somebody else there when it was listed to 
Herbert's Jewelry Shop ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know what you are talking about. 

Mr. Rice. And Happy Freer, do you know him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What business is he in ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Jewelry business. 

Mr. Rice. He is in the jewelry business. Is he known as Melser? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat is his name — what do you call him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Happy. 

Mr. Rice. Happv — you said you call him Happy ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Happy. 

Mr. Rice. Where did you get Happy ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is how I know him. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. What do you do with Happy ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Pardon? 

Mr. Rice. What do you talk to Happy about when you call him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Tell you what business I had with Happy in 1945, 
I believe, while I was in business watches were hard to get, watches and 
fountain pens, and I bought maybe 2 dozen watches off of him, three 
or four at a time. 

Mr, Rice. Was he a fence ? 

Mr. Gray. Let him finish that answer. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. Bought watches. 

Mr. Rice. You bought watches ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I bought some watches from him when watches were 
hard to get, when I was in business, maybe about 2 dozen, three or four 
at a time, and some fountain pens. 

Mr. Rice. What business were you in ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Credit clothing in Wilmington, Del. 

Mr. Rice. He was getting you watches? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What has that to do with the credit clothing? 

Mr. Weisberg. We sold watches, radios, clothing. 

Mr. Rice. And fountain pens ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 275 

Mr. Rtce. You crot them from Happy ? 

ISIr. Weisberg. A couple of dozen ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. Were those new watches? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How about Baltimore Blinky, you do business with him? 

Mr. Weisberg. No business. 

Mr. Rice. Fink ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Just a ofood friend of mine. 

Mr. Rice. Telephone him quite frequently ? 

Mr. Weisberg. We are very good friends. 

]Mr. Rice. What do you talk to him about? 

Mr. Weisberg. Fights, football. We are just friendly. 

Mr. Rice. Just talk about fights and football ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. And talk about Bob Montgomery ? 

ISIr. Weisberg. Who ? 

]\Ir. Rice, Bob Montgomery. 

Mr. Weisberg. Bob Montgomery, when he was fighting we talked 
about him. too. 

]\Ir. Rice. Did you handle him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I was never connected with no fight business. 

Mr. Rice. Had no interest in Montgomery ? 

Mr. Weisberg. None whatsoever. Not only Montgomery, no other 
fighter. 

Mr. Rice. Never had an interest in a fighter ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, what is your telephone number in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Today ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. Sherwood 7-1886. 

Mr. Rice. Wliose name is that listed in ? 

Mr. Weisberg. It was listed under my sister-in-law's name. I 
have had it for over 25 years. 

Mr. Rice. In your sister-in-law's name ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I lived with her 25 years ago. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat is her name ? 

]Mr. Weisberg. Spearak, Sarah Spearak. 

Mr. Rice. Why did you have your telephone number changed ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Wliy ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. Because people used to call me all hours of the night 
and wake me up and hang up on me and I have a very nervous wife. 

Mr. Rice. How long ago did you have the number changed ? 

Mr. AVeisberg. I have^had itVhanged three or four times, maybe, 
in the last year. 

Mr. Rice. That was an unlisted number before, was it not? 

Mr. Weisberg. It is listed. My phone was never unlisted. 

Mr. Rice. Never has been listecl in your name, has it ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. I kept it under my sister-in-law's name. 

Mr. Rice. Who are these people that would be calling you up, who 
would they be ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I can't hear that. 

Mr. Rice. Who were tlie people that called you up ? 



276 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Wetsberg. I'd like to know. I'd like to find out. I told you 
they called me and would hano; up. 

Mr. Rice. Did you do any business with Abe Minker in Reading? 

]\Ir, Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You called him up? 

Mr, Weisberg. Xo, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Never called him? 

Mr. Weisberg. Maybe I did call him. I don't remember if I did or 
not, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Let us get a little closer than maybe. 

Mr. Weisberg. Abe Minker. 

Mr. Rice. What business is Minker in? 

Mr. Weisberg. I think he is in the fruit and produce business. 

Mr. Rice. Fruit business ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I haven't seen him in 8 or 10 years. 

Mr. Rice. Have you talked to him on the telephone in the last 8 
years ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I think I did. 

Mr. Rice. You talked with him in the last year? 

Mr. Weisberg. In the last year — I don't think I did, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Sure about that? 

Mr. Weisberg. I am not sure. I am under oath and I won't say 
for sure. Maybe I did and maybe I didn't. 

Mr. Rice. He has a criminal record. 

Mr. Weisberg. Pardon? 

Mr. Rice. Minker has a criminal record. 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know too much about Mr. Minker. 

Mr. Rice. What do you call him up for ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Why do I call him for? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know what the occasion was for, if I did 
call him. 

Mr. Rice. You did call him, I will tell you that. 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know what the occasion was for. 

Mr. Rice. Just very vague about the whole thing ; is that it ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No; I won't say vague. Maybe he asked me to do 
something for him. Maybe I met him or something. 

Mr. Rice. For instance, what would he ask? 

Mr. Weisberg. Maybe get him a couple of tickets for a fight or some- 
thing or a room in Philadelphia. 

Mr. Rice. Are you in the ticket business? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What do you do about tickets ? 

Mr. Weisberg. It is easier to get them in Philadelphia than for Abe 
Minker in Reading. 

Mr. Rice. Why would that be? 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, because I live in Philadelphia, and I would 
know who would sell them. 

Mr. Rice. Minker is in the beer business in Reading? 

Mr. Weisberg. I wouldn't know Avhat business other than the fruit 
business. I wouldn't know what business he is in. 

Mr. Rice. Have any slot machines down there? 

Mr. Weisberg. Not that I know of. I haven't been in Reading 5 
or 6 years, maybe T years. 



I 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 277 

Mr. Rice. How about Abe Peck? 

]Mr. Weisbehg. None wliatsoever. 

Mr. Rice. Don't know him? 

Mr. Weisherg. Yes ; I know Abe Peck. 

Mr. Rice. Don't do any business with him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. 

Mr. Rice. What business is he in ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That I don't know. 

]Mr. Rice. You don't know what business he is in? 

Mr. Weisberg. No ; I really don't. 

Mr. Rice. Milky Tichner? 

Mr. Weisberg. I know him. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever had any transactions with him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Rice. What do you know him to be ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, from the newspapers 

The Chairman. If you do not know anythino;, say so, 

Mr. Weisberg. I do not know. 

Mr. Rice. He is a Philadelphia man ; is he not? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes; he is from Philadelphia. 

Mr. Rice. Did you talk to Tichner on the telephone ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Maybe I have. 

Mr. Rice. I see he has an unlisted number. How do you get hold 
of that ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I never called Max Tichner on the phone. 

Mr. Rice. Never called him on the phone? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't ever remember calling him on the telephone. 

Mr. Rice. Did he ever call you ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Maybe he did. 

Mr. Rice. What would you talk about? 

Mr. Weisberg. Pardon ? 

Mr. Rice. What do you talk about ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I guess everything in general. I don't remember 
what I talked to him about. 

Mr. Ricir. Ever talk about the numbers business when you called 
him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, do you know a Clark on the police department, 
Lieutenant Clark up there ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What squad ? 

Mr. Gray. I think I should say that I advised the conmiittee when 
they asked him about it before on the record that he is no longer a 
detective or with the police department. You speak as if he was. He 
has been off the force for a long while. 

Mr. Rice. When you say you were in the numbers business for a 
while in Philadelphia 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice (continuing). Who was that with? 

Mr. Weisberg. James Tendler. 

Mr. Rice. With Tendler? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. That was up until what year? 

Mr. Weisberg. I believe 



278 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Grat. He has already testified on tliat. 

Mr. Weisberg. 1936 or 1937. 

Mr. Rice. And haven't been in the business since then? 

Mr. WeisbeKg. No, sir. 

Mr, EicE. How did you handle the protection ? 

Mr. Weisberg. He took care of all of that. 

Mr. Rice. Who? 

Mr. Weisberg. Tendler. 

Mr. Rice. Tendler did ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What arrangements did he make? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know. He used to put the expense on the 
slip and that is all. Who he give anything to, I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Rice. What would he put down? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't remember right now, 15 years. How am I 
to remember what he put down ? 

Mr. Rice. You were in business with him. 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes; I was. 

Mr. Rice. Would you not check him to see what he put down ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I trusted him. 

Mr. Rice. You trusted him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How much did he put down per week or month? 

Mr. Weisberg. I wouldn't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Approximately. 

Mr. Weisberg. I wouldn't remember. 

Mr. Gray. I think you are quoting him incorrectly. He did not say 
anything about down for protection. What he said he put down was 
for expenses, whether it was paid for protection the committee can 
draw its own conclusions, but I do not w^ant the witness misquoted. 
You can call it the same thing. I don't just want you to misquote him. 

Mr. Rice. How did it work? 

Mr. Weisberg. To tell you the truth I testified before this committee 
before and I testified under oath. 

Mr. Rice. Tell us now. Memory is getting bad. How did you put 
the fix in down at Philadelphia? 

Mr. Weisberg. How did I put it in ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Weisberg. I never had no fix in. I was not allowed in Phila- 
delphia. 

Mr. Rice. How did Tendler put it in ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know. 
. Mr. Rice. You say he put expenses down ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr. Rice. What do you mean? 

Mr. Weisberg. General expenses. I don't know what he put down. 
I don't know what it was for. 

Mr. Rice. Protection? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Was Lieutenant Clark involved? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know who was involved. 

Mr. Rice. Did you meet Clark ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Did I what? 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever meet with him ? 



ORGAXIZED CRIME IX IXTERSTATE COMMERCE 279 

]Mr. Wetsberg. Yes ; I have met him quite often. 

Mr. EicE. Did you ever have dinner with him ? 

Mr. Weisbekg. No, sir. 

Mr. EiCE. Did you ever have dinner with Lieutenant Clark and 
Mugsy Taylor? 

Mr. Weisbekg. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. At the Warwick ? 

Mr. Weisbekg. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. On or about September 20, 1946? 

Mr. Weisbekg. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Sure about that? 

Mr. Weisbekg. Pretty near sure. 

Mr. Rice. Pretty sure? 

Mr. Weisbekg. Ninety percent sure. 

Mr. Rice. Let us get closer than that. Let us get that other 10 
percent in here now. Did you ever have dinner with Lieutenant 
Clark at the Warwick ? 

Mr. Weisbekg. Did I ever have dinner? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Weisbekg. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How about you and Mugsy Taylor ? 

Mr. Weisbekg. Alone? 

Mr. Rice. And Clark? 

Mr. Weisbekg. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever have dinner at the Warwick with Mugsy 
Taylor? 

Mr. Weisbekg. Maybe 10 years ago. 

Mr. Rice. What was that about? 

Mr. Weisbekg. We just had dinner. 

Mr. Gray. To eat. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever have dinner any place with Lieutenant 
Clark? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Sure about that? 

Mr. Weisberg. Positive. 

The Chairthan. All right. You say you were not allowed in Phila- 
delphia ? 

Mr. Weisbekg. That is right. Senator. 

The Chairman. When was it you were not allowed there? 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, from 1940 until 1950, 10 years. 

Mr. Gray. The committee has a full statement of that on the record 
the last time. 

The Chairman. Senator O'Conor was presiding then. Now you are 
back in good graces, so you are allowed in Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I am under the jurisdiction of the jury, Senator, that 
is why I guess why no one bothers me. 

The Chairman. Who chased you out of Philadelphia, who told you 
not to come there? 

Mr. Weisbekg. George Richardson. 

The Chairman. That was in 1940? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. 

The Chairman. Did you go to any of these shows or clubs in New 
York with Mr. Stromberg and Mr. Richardson? 



280 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Weisberg. I was never on friendly terms with Mr. Eichardsoii. 

The Chaii?max. Yon never got along witli him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

The Chairman. How do you keep your books ? 

Weisberg. I don't keep no books. Senator. 

The Chairman. How do yon know now that you made fifteen or 
nineteen thousand dollars in 1940? 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, I started out the beginning of the year, like I 
did this year, and take care of whatever I have to and count that in at 
the end of the year, I come to the conclusion what I have to pay the 
Government. 

The Chairman. You mean you just pay all of your expenses out of 
pocket and what you have left, is that your income? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir; whatever I earn I pay on. 

The Chairman. How do you keep account of it unless you keep some' 
books ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I just do not keep no books. I just keep a bottom line 
and at the end of the line I have it. 

The Chairman. You keep it in you head ? 

Mr. Weisberg. One figure I keep. 

The Chairman. You just keep one figure? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. From day to day ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, 

The Chairman. What is your figure today ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I haven't it. I don't have no figure. 

The Chairman. You have been betting some horses this year, have 
you not? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes; I did. I left them. I have the figures at home. 
I just cannot remember how much it is right now. 

The Chairman. You have just one figure? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right. 

The Chairman. You do not know how much it is now ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No. 

The Chairman. We will have a 3-minute recess. 

Mr. Stromberg, do not leave. Is he still here ? 

Mr. Gray. He is still here. 

The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess for about 3 or 
4 or 5 minutes. 

(Short recess.) 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Mr. Weisberg, 
will you come around? 

All right, Mr. Klein. Is there anything else you want to ask? 

Mr. Klein. I have just one question: Have you ever heard of the 
expression ''Big Mahoff '' ? 

Mr. Gray. May I hear that myself? 

Mr. Klein. I asked Mr. Weisberg whether he had ever heard the 
expression ''The Big Mahoff,"' 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Klein. What does it mean to you ? 

Mr. Weisberc;. To me "The Big Mahoff" is a fellow who was in the 
limelight, a fellow that is — I don't know, that is the only way I can 
express myself, a fellow in the limelight. 

Mr. Klein. A big shot ? 



ORGANIZED CRTME IX INTERSTATE COMMENCE 281 

Mr. WEisr>EK(;. x\ bi<r shot. 

Mr. Klein. H;ive yoii ever heard that expression used in connection 
with Stroniberii? 

Mr. Weisbek(;. Have I ever used "Bio- MahoflF'' to Stromberg? 

Mr. Gray. Not to Stronibero^, but about Stroniberg. 

]Mr. Weisberg. I don't recall if I did, Mr. Klein. 

Mr. Klein. You know, do vou not, that up in Philadelphia they 
call Mr. Stronibero- ^'The Big- Mahoff'"? 

]\Ir. Weisberg. Do I? No, sir; I don't know. 

Mr. Klein. Don't the boys call him "The Big Mahoff"? 

JNIr. Weisberg. No. 

Mr. Klein. Not to your knowledge? 

Mr. Weisberg. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Klein. That is all I have. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Gray, Mr. Weisberg has that piece of 
paper with a number on it about how he is getting along this year. We 
would like very much to have that, or a photostatic copy of it; also 
the one he had last year. Do you liave the one you had last year? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, I destroyed it. 

The Chairman. You mean when you make up your income tax you 
just tear it up? 

Mr. AYeisberg. Yes, sir; and start again the beginning of the year. 

The Chairman. Then, there is no record at all. You have the cur- 
rent one ; do you not ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir; I have it at home. 

The Chairman. Would you have any objection to turning it over 
to your lawyer to have a copy of it made, to send to us? 

Mr. Gray. Before that is answered. Senator, I want to say this: 
I don't know whether it was clearly understood — as a matter of fact, 
I was not certain what he meant when he said he had one figure or 
one number, and I have inquired of him, and if you want him to put 
it in detail on the record, he takes his figure of what he may have won 
up to date, and what he may have won tomorrow, if he wins, and then 
he adds that, and then he has a loss, and he subtracts it ; he goes down 
the line and keeps it that way, and if the committee clearly understood 
that, that is all that is necessary. 

The Chairman. Yes; 1 understand that. 

iSIr. Gray. Now, I am going to say to this committee that while 
technically I believe that he might decline to do what the committee 
has suggested to him because of the protection he may have that 
would be involved in income tax, I am going to advise him to bring 
that paper to me, and I am going, if you will allow me to do so, to 
submit it to the committee. 

The Chairman. All right. 

]Mr. Gray, you will send it to us. either that or a photostat of it, 
as quickly as you can get it. I would just like to see how he keeps his 
T^ooks. 

Mr. Gray. I imagine that they are not books, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, anyway his figures. 

Mr. Gray. In the general sense of the word "books." They are 
not boots in the sense that an accountant, I supposie, would call them 
l>ooks. 

The Chairman. There is one question that you did not answer, 
and it has not been asked of you, I do not believe, and that is : Did 
3'ou evei- own any part of the Maryland Athletic Club ? 



282 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Gray. It was not asked. 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Weisberg, you liave testified before that 
you had drinks from time to time with certain officers of the Phila- 
delpliia police force, on some occasions you would have a great 
many drinks with them, and that you usually bought the drinks; 
maybe it would be six or seven hanging around the Locust Cafe. 
Is that correct? 

JNIr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How did you happen to buy them drinks? 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, if I go in and have my dinner, Senator, and 
if I would meet them in there, then I would send them a drink. 

The Chairman. The Locust Cafe is located at forty-fifth and Lo- 
cust Street ; is it not ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. It is owned by George Nathans; is that correct? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Here is Hackett that you spoke of ; is that correct? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And De Young? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You spoke of? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You were not in very good standing in the city 
of Philadelphia. How did you happen to purchase them drinks? 

Mr. Weisberg. Senator, other than Richardson and Detective Foley, 
it seemed like no one else would bother me. 

The Chairman. That is the place where a great many cops sort 
of hang out? 

Mr. Weisberg. Every time I went in there I saw quite a few ; yes, 
sir. 

The Chairman. And one name, Lieutenant Mays. Is he the one 
that is not on the force now any more ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, Clark is not on the force. 

Mr. Gray. May I suggest to the committee that Lieutenant Mays 
is a lieutenant of police 

Mr. Weisberg. Detective. 

Mr. Gray. He was a lieutenant of police; Mr. Clark was in the 
detective department. 

The Chairman. Weren't you known at that time as somewhat of a 
police character in the city ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Well, Senator, I am not going to plead that I was 
not; I have not a police — I was arrested; however, never was sent to 
prison. 

The Chairman. Well, you were known as a gambler ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Pardon ? 

The Chairman. You were known as a gambler; were you not? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes. 

The Chairman. That is the way j^ou have made your principal 
living ? 

Mr. Weisberg. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Wliile you are talking about Lieutenant Mays, did you 
ever transact any business with him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 283 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever join in any joint enterprise with liim ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. KiCE. Did you ever invest any money in any business Avitli liini ? 

]Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. I have a report liere which said that you invested $3,200 
in a business deal Avitli Mays. No, I am sorry; I am mistaken, it is 
Ryan, With Ryan ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Never. 

Mr. Rice. You know Jimmie Ryan ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Captain of police? 

Mr. Weisberg. He was. 

Mr. Rice. He was? 

Mr. AVeisberg. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Did you have any transactions with him? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir ; none whatsoever. 

Mr. Gray. It has been many years since he was on the force. 

Mr. Rice. How many years since he was on the force ? 

Mr. Gray. Fifteen years or so. 

Mr. Weisberg. Fifteen years. 

]\Ir. Rice. Did you ever liave any transaction with Mr. Ryan ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever have any transaction with — was it Ellis 
Craig ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Or Craig Ellis? 

Mr. Weisberg. I hardly knew the gentleman. 

Mr. Gray. Craig Ellis is the gentleman. 

Mr. Rice. What happened to him ? 

Mr. Weisberg. He committed suicide. 

]\Ir. Rice. How long ago ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I guess 4 months ago. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, did you ever invest any money in a business 
deal in which Ryan was also involved ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You are sure about that? 

Mr. Weisberg. Positive. 

Mr. Rice. How about Hackett and DeYoung; were you ever in 
any business transaction with Hackett or DeYoung ? 

Mr. Weisberg. No, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. Is there anything else ? 

Mr. Klein. You know Lieutenant DeYoung; do you not? 

Mr, Weisberg. Yes, sir ; Sergeant DeYoung. 

Mr. Klein, Sergeant DeYoung ? 

Mr. Weisberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Did you ever have any discussion with Sergeant 
DeYoung about a fur coat for his wife ? 

Mr. Weisberg. About what ? 

Mr. Klein. About a fur coat for his wife. 

Mr. Weisberg. If I did, maybe when I was drinking; I don't re- 
member it. 

]Mr. Klein. Well, after you finished drinking, didn't you tell De- 
Young that when he wanted a fur coat for his wife you said that you 



284 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

could <^et it for him wholesale through j'our brother Sam, who was in 
the fur business in Xew York ? 

Mr. Weisberg. My brother Sam was not in the fur business. My 
brother Sam, through a store in Wilmington, could buy coats whole- 
sale. 

Mr. Klein. Is it possible that one time or another you helped De- 
Young get a coat for his wife ? 

Mr. AVeisberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Klein. You remember back in September 1946? Are you now 
sure that you never helped DeYoung get a coat for his wife through 
your brother Sam ? 

Mr. Weisberg. I can't remember that, unless my brother done it. 

Mr. Klein. Is it possible? 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Unless he knows 

Mr. Weisberg. I don't know. 

The Chairman. All right. Is there anything else ? Do you want 
to ask him any questions, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Gray. No, sir; especially because of the fact that it is nearly 
20 minutes to 5, and if the committee gets through with him, I will 
make the 5 o'clock, and if not, I will make the 6. I do not mean by 
that that I want the conmiittee to hasten. 

The Chairman. Then, that is all for the time being, Mr. Weisberg. 

Mr. Gray. He will consider himself under subpena. 

Mr. Weisberg. Thank you. 

The Chairman. We are expecting you to send that 

Mr. Gray. I understand, sir ; I have a note of it. 

The Chairman. I think that in order that his testimony will make 
sense, we will make public also his testimony in executive session, 
when we have copies enough to go around, and I will make the same 
recommendation to the whole committee regarding Mr. Stromberg. 

Mr. Gray. I might say, off the record, that I went over this testi- 
mony very carefully and told them what the law would be, and that 
they ought to answer the questions, and they followed my advice. 

The Chairman. Is there anything else this afternoon, gentlemen? 

We will have a brief session tomorrow afternoon at '1 o'clock, at 
which time Mr. Edward O'Hara, who has some connection with — is 
the general manager of the Bowie race track, will testify. 

Before we recess the meeting, Mr. Groemping of the State Depart- 
ment is here with several visitors from the Republic of Germany, 
trade-unionists, and they are here under the exchange j)rogram. 

We w^ant to note their presence and to say that we are glad to have 
them with the committee this afternoon. I want them to know that 
the story about gamblers and their activities that we have heard here 
this afternoon is not characteristic, of course, of the great American 
people. We try to find out about these things in order that we can 
pass legislation to put as many blocks as we can in the interstate 
operations of what they may be doing. 

The Chair will look forward to the ])rivilege of meeting our visitors 
after the con-).nittee has been adjourned. 

If there is nothing else, the committee will stand in recess until 
2 o'clock tomorrow afternoon in this committee room. 

(Whereupon, at 4:45 p. m., the special committee adjourned, to 
reconvene at 2 p. m., Tuesday, February 20, 1951.) 



INVESTIGATION OF OEGANIZED CEIME IN INTERSTATE 

COMMERCE 



TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 1951 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Washington^ D. C. 

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 2 p. m., in room 
G-16, United States Capitol Building, Senator Estes Kel'auver (chair- 
man) presiding. 

Present: Senators Kefauver and Tobey. 

Also present: DoAvney Rice, associate counsel; John L. Burling, 
associate counsel ; and Joseph L. Nellis, assistant counsel. 

(The testimony of Lawrence Edmimd O'Hara, heard by the com- 
mittee at this time, is included in part 12 of the hearings of the com- 
mittee.) 

The Chairman. Who is your next witness? 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Richardson. 

The Chairman. Come around, Mr. Richardson. Will you raise 
your right hand and be sworn, please. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
is the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Richardson. I do. 

FURTHEK TESTIMONY OF GEORGE RICHARDSON, ASSISTANT 
SUPERINTENDENT OF POLICE, PHILADELPHIA, PA. 

The Chairman. Chief Richardson is here. I am glad he came down. 
I told the court reporter and the staff to immediately send you a 
transcript of the testimony that was had here yesterday. We liKe for 
anybody as quickly as possible to have an opportunity to make any 
explanations or say anything they want about it. We are glad you 
came down. 

Mr. Richardson. I came down about 5 minutes after I received the 
telegi'am. 

The Chairman. You came down about 5 minutes after you received 
the telegram ? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You had an opportunity of knowing what Strom- 
berg said yesterday? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes, I read the newspapers. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Rice. Did you get a copy of the 
testimony, the transcript? 

285 
68958— 51— pt. 11 19 



286 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Richardson. Only the telegram, I got a telegram stating that 
Stromberg 

Mr. Rice. I am familiar with the telegram. That is all you have ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right, and what I saw in the newspapers 
in Philadelphia. 

The Chairman. Well, suppose you go over the statements the wit- 
ness Stromberg made and then he will be informed as to what it was. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Nig Rosen, alias Stromberg ? 

Mr. Richardson. I do. • 

Mr. Rice. He was here j^^esterday and testified under oath, and 
this is the questioning, I will read it to you. Mr. Klein is examining 
Stromberg and says : 

You testified here today that you wei-e iu business but you didn't pay off 
anybody, you didn't have any protection that you knew of. Yet, at the hearings 
in October, you testified that you were friendly with the present Assistant 
Superintendent of Police, Mr. Richardson, George Richardson. 

Mr. Stuomberg. I was. 

Mr. Klein. When did you first become friendly with Mr. Richardson? 

Mr. Stromberg. That is quite a number of years ago. I wouldn't remember — 
maybe W years ago, 16 years ago. 

Mr. Klein. How did you meet him? 

Mr. Strojibeiig. I was introduced to him ; that is all. 

Mr. Klein. By whom? 

Mr. Stromberg. I don't remember. 

Mr. Klein. At that time, 1935, you were operating in the numbers business? 

Mr. Stromberg. I presume I was. 

Nov/, then, is there anything you want to say about how you met 
Rosen that is different from that, or that j^ou wish to say ? You un- 
derstand that our purpose is to give you a chance to talk about it. 

The Chairman. Well, suppose we let Chief Richardson make any 
statement that he wants to, and then we can come back to the specific 
questions. 

Mr. Rice. He might want to make a note or two. 

Mr. Richardson. I can tell you just from my memory any connec- 
tion I ever had with Rosen or Stromberg. 

The Chairman. Just tell us about it. 

Mr. Richardson. In the early thirties, I would say, maybe 1929 or 
1930, I am not sure of the year, ni}' partner and I detected James 
Ryan, a fellow in the tenderloin, which is located in the vicinity of 
Eighth and Vine. Then there is a place called Connie's Restaurant. 
That is a restaurant there where all the tenderloin habitues hung out. 
We seen this stranger here and we seen Rosen, this stranger in this 
restaurant, and we went in and pulled him out and questioned him 
and asked him where he had come from. We asked him what he was 
doing in Philadelphia; he said he came from New York. We asked 
him if he was ever arrested and he said "Yes." 

We asked him what he was doing here and he said that he was here 
on some kind of business. I can't just recall what it was. However, 
that was the first time Ave ever seen Nig Rosen. 

We latei" inquired about him and found out that he was an ex- 
convict from New York, sentenced for 2i/9 years for burglary in New 
York. 

Around 1930 there was a series of killings in Philadelphia, and as 
a result of a mob organized by Nig Rosen. 

Mr. Rice. Who were some of the members of that mob ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 287 

Mr. Richardson. That Avas killed ^ 

Mr. Rice. No ; the mejiibers of the mob that was organized by Nig. 

Mr. Richardson. Nig Rosen '^ 

Mv. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Richardson. Yes; I will tell you. Herman Chrissy 

Mr. Rice. "Little" Chrissy ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. Willy Weisberg, Tony Narciss, 
a fellow by the name of Scale, another fellow by the name of Sam 
Grossman, Johnny Murphy, alias Raymond Boyne, INIoe Newman, 
Jetf Newman, and Jack Newman, three brothers, one doing life in 
St. Paul for murder, and he is also wanted in New Jersey for the kill- 
ing of a ])rohibition agent. 

Mr. Rice. How about Cappy ? 

Mr. Richardson. Cappy Hoffman was a killer, too, he was arrested 
in Atlantic City for two murders, and he was arrested with the gun 
he committed them with. 

The Chairman. Wasn't he arrested with Herman Taylor? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes; and Doc Cooch, with the gun on him — he 
shot Doc Cooch in the foot with it in the killing of Jerry Daniels, the 
gambler, who nnisclecl in at Atlantic City. Herman Taylor is asso- 
ciated with Nig Rosen in gambling here in Washington, D. C, at the 
Maryland Sporting Club. 

Mr. Rice. Herman Taylor is a boxing promoter? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. 

Mr. Rtce. It was the ]\Iaryland Athletic Club, Fontaine. 

]Mr. Richardson. That is right. It was managed by Whitey Price, 
of Philadelphia, who represented Taylor, and Jimmy LaFontaine w ere 
the three partnei'S. 

Mr. Rice. How did they get into LaFontaine's place? 

Mr. Richardson. I tolcl the committee and I will tell you again — 
in 1934, I believe it was, or maybe in 1983, there was a couple of kill- 
ings here in Washington. One w^as an innocent newspaperman, I un- 
derstand, and the Washington police sent the name and description 
of the man suspected in that crime to Philadelphia. 

Mr. Rice. You say this was an innocent newspaperman? 

Mr. Richardson. That is what I believe. I am just trying to ac- 
quaint you with the facts. 

Mr. Rice. You mean it was a case of mistaken identity, wasn't it? 
It was a mistaken-identity kiljing? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. 

The Chairman. What Mr. Rice means is that that adjective goes 
with all newspaper men and women. 

Mr. Richardson. I believe the killing was meant for a man who 
was a partner in the gambling joint. 

Mr. Rice. In any event it was a mistaken-identity killing, wasn't 
it? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. As a result of the information our depart- 
ment received from the Washington police, there was a man by the 
name of Sammy Harris, a gangster in Philadelphia. He was sent 
to Washington here and he was convicted of first-degree murder and 
sentenced to the electric chair, and I believe he received about 9, 10, 
11, or 12 reprieves, and was finally sentenced to life imprisonment. 
Whether he is here in prison now or not, I don't know. 



288 orgajstized crime in interstate commekce 

But later on the same car that Harris operated in this killing was 
sold to someone out West, someone on a farm, I don't know whether 
it was out West or close by here, but in that car was a trap, and the 
gun that was used in that killing was found by the owner of the car, 
the man that bought that car. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Do you know how the mob got into the 
Athletic Club? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Was there a kidnapping or something? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes; there was a snatch, LaFontaine, Jimmy 
LaFontaine. 

Mr. Rice. What is the story on that ? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't know. I know that they kept him tied in 
bed, they wouldn't even let him out of bed to go to the toilet. 

Mr. Rice. Who grabbed him? 

Mr. Richardson. I cannot tell you who grabbed him, but the two 
partners that moved in with Mr. LaFontaine should know more about 
that than I do. 

Mr. Rice. Who are they ? 

Mr. Richardson. Nig Rosen and Muggsy Tajdor. 

Mr. Rice. Didn't Marty Price 

Mr. Richardson. No ; he is the manager. 

The Chairman. I think at this point it should be said, Mr. Rich- 
ardson, that Rosen denied he had any financial interest in LaFon- 
taine's business, and that the most he had to say about it was that he 
had gambled down there, but I think I should say that that was his 
testimony. 

Mr. Richardson. I am only giving you my police information, the 
knowledge I have got. I told you that I cannot prove this myself, but 
1 am only giving you this for your own information. That is the 
police information I had. 

The Chairman. Well, I thought I should interrupt you there to tell 
you what his testimony was. 

Now, what police information did you have that he got in there as a 
partner ? 

Mr. Richardson. What police information? 

The Chairman. Yes ; what led you to that conclusion ? 

Mr. Richardson. Well, it is common knowledge around Philadel- 
phia that Rosen and Taylor had part of the crap game here. 

The Chairman. Taylor did say he worked down there. I think 
he had as high as $20,000 a year. I don't remember whether he said 
he had any interest in it or not, but he did work there. That is what 
he testified to in Philadelphia. 

Mr. Richardson. I recall. Senator, from what I read he had said. 

The Chairman. All right, excuse me. I did not mean to interrupt 
you. 

Mr. Richardson. Now, this Frankie Carbo he told you was his part- 
ner in Jersey City, he was around Philadelphia, and we sent him back 
to New York for a murder, and I believe he was sentenced to around 
3, 4, or 5 years, I wouldn't know just how many years he got, but he 
got a sentence. Whether he pleaded guilty or not, I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Did Nig Rosen have some brothers ? 
Mr. Richardson. Yes ; he has got a brother by the name of Nucci. 
He is a little fellow. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEECE 289 

He has another brother named Dan, and another fellow just got 
sentenced for killing: a <T:ambler np in Potts vi He and got 6 to 12 years. 
He was found guilty of second-degree murder. 

JMr. Rice. Which one ^vas he, do you know? 

Mr. EiciiARDSON. If I heard his name I could give it. 

Mr. Rice. Wasn't he the fellow who was mixed up in this Warring 
hold-up in Washington? 

Mv. Richardson. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. What is the story on that? 

]Mr. Richardson. There was supposed to be a $200,000 take here, 
and we had received information before that he was one of the suspects.. 

Mr, Rice. He was one of the suspects ? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes; here in the hold-up, they were supposed to 
take $200,000 off the man that was held up. I don't know how the 
information came to me, but I did not get it through police channels. 
I got it through 

Mr. Rice. Through informers? 

]\Ir. Richardson. Well, b^^ a former partner, he told me about the 
hoist down in Washington, where a fellow was taken for 200 G's. 

Mr. Rice. That was when they came in pretending to deliver a 
basket of fruit? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. That is how they operate to get in, 
if they don't get in somehow, the}^ come around and kill you. They 
machine gun you. That is the operation we had around the early 
thirties, they would come along with a machine gun, and at Franklin 
and Race Street they killed an innocent man, a milkman coming out 
of the Bijou Theater on his afternoon off. 

The Chairman. Who are these people you are talking about ? 

Mr. Richardson. Nig Rosen, how they got in. You are asking me 
to name some of them. Xow, I had been appointed as inspector of 
detectives in 1940, and one of my first duties, the first week I took over, 
was to call a special roll call, and I laid down a policy that these men 
were not to be permitted the freedom of the streets or night clubs or 
any sporting event or anywhere they were seen, they were supposed 
to be stood up and given rough treatment and put on their way. 

Mr. Rice. That was called ''rausing" them? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right, and we still have the policy, and 
they have not been around, only since the grand jury, they never 
showed around any place, or any place of interest. 

Mr. Rice. You don't mean thtit they were given a license to go there ? 
They were under subpena ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. You would see them in a restaur- 
ant, and they would pull the subpena out of their pocket and they 
would tell us, "That is our permit to stay here." Before that they 
were never around. 

The Chairman. Well, in fairness to the committee, we were only 
there 2 or 3 days. 

Mr. Richardson. The grand jury followed you up with subpenas 
for them people, and that policy has been in effect for 10 years, since 
I have been there, and I think any investigation you make, you won't 
find any of those stiffs around '^Philadelphia. And that goes for 
Chrissy"^or anybody that lived there. Even they weren't allowed the 
freedom of the street, anybody that was a gunman or a gangster. 

Mr. Rice. How about Reginelli ? 



290 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COM]VIERCE 

Mr. Richardson. He lives in Camden. He never liacl tlie freedom 
any time he was there. He was taken care of. 

Mr. Rice. All ri^ht. During the testimony yesterday Rosen testi- 
fied that he made a present to you of some tailor-made shirts that 
were bought at Sulka's in New York, and some neckties. What do 
you have to say about that? 

Mr. Richardson. I see where he says that it was all these things 
took effect in 1939 and 1941. Now in fairness to Rosen, and the stooge 
Weisberg, I have not seen either one of those two men since 1935. I 
don't think I've seen Weisberg before that. Weisberg never even said 
hello to me or never even answered me or I never even questioned 
Weisberg, and I don't think Rosen has ever spoken to me, only the 
time I brought him back from New York. 

Now previous to New York, previous to 1935 they had a bank just 
outside of Philadelphia in Delaware County. 

Mr. Rice. What do you mean by "a bank"'? 

Mr. Richardson. A numbers bank whicli they called the edge off. 
The edge off is this, just as this man was saying about the horses; 
that a number is bet with a dollar, $2, $3, $4, anything above a dollar, 
the banker takes the edge off, takes it off, takes all the big bets. 

Mr. Rice. Sometimes called a lay-off? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. Now they had a bank just across 
the street from police headquarters. I would say that would be about 
a mile and a half outside of Philadelphia. 

Mr. Rice. Out of your jurisdiction? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. Now in 1934, 1 believe it was, they 
were doing a $27,000-a-day business. We raided that bank, my partner 
and I with John Mahaffey, former lieutenant of the vice squad. I be- 
lieve we arrested seven prisoners. We confiscated two large baskets 
of numbers, I guess you would call them wash baskets of numbers' 
slips, confiscated several adding machines, and took them to police 
headquarters. They were held for court and they were all convicted, 
pleaded guilty, and convicted and sentenced. 

Now as a result of that, their arrest and the numbers probe of law- 
yers, collusion of lawyers and the numbers racket, Nick Rosen was 
named by one of the operators of this numbers bank as being the head 
of it, and the district attorney's office issued a warrant for Nick Rosen. 
From information Ave supplied to Lt. Walter Sullivan, of the New 
York Police Department, he apprehended Nig Rosen and we went 
over, attended these hearings and brought him back to Philadelphia 
for trial. 

Now, these people here, if they were permitted in Philadelphia like 
any other city, they would be probably taking a couple of million 
dollars a year away from the citizens of Philadelphia. 

Mr. Rice. We were talking about the shirts. 

Mr. Richardson. Shirts? That bum couldn't get near me, let 
alone give me any shirts. He never gave me anything. He was never 
permitted to talk to me, only when I was standing him up. 

Now, that is the last time I seen him. Pie got out on bail. He had 
appendicitis. That's the thing that saved him from being off his feet. 
He pleaded appendicitis, and that's the last time I ever talked to him. 
It was at a fight in New York, or in Philadelphia at Shibe Park. Now, 
T never seen him anywhere in Philadelphia or New York after that. 

Ever since 1940 or even when I was a detective, I always gave them 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 291 

a rougli time, the whole mob of them, never permitted them at any 
fights. Any time I ever seen them anywhere, they were given a rougli 
time. 

Mr. Rice. Now there was some testimony to this effect: 

Senator Tobey. Did you think yon miglit cvirry a little favor by giving a dozen 
shirts to him, so he would favor some of these clubs you were connected with? 
Mr. Stromberg. No; he never did anything for me. 
The Chairman. All right, go ahead, Mr. Klein. 
Mr. Klein. Did you ever give him anything else? 
Mr. Stromberg. Yes ; I think I bought him a clock for his place. 
Mr. Gray. What? 

Mr. Stromberg. A clock for his home. 
Mr. Klein. What kind of a clock? 
Mr. Stromberg. Ordinary living room clock. 
Mr. Klein. You spent $150 on that, didn't you? 
Mr. Stromberg. That is right. 

Mr. Richardson. Well, he couldn't get near me even with a million 
dollars. He had a rough time with me no matter where he went. I co- 
operated with the police in any city at all wherever they were sticking 
their nose in, I give the police the fullest cooperation, the Government 
and the police. 

The Chairman. Well, then you unequivocally deny that he ever gave 
you 

Mr. Richardson. I absolutely do, and he had an opportunity when 
Mugsy Taylor was suing me here in 1944 for $50,000. 

The Chairman. Mugsy w^as suing you? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes; he was. I subpenaed the whole mob, sub- 
penaed everybody who was connected with it, and the police of Wash- 
ington to show what Mugsy Taylor did for a living, and he come in 
out of the courtroom and he went on a rampage. He got the rams and 
went in the Pennsylvania Hospital with typhoid fever, and the first 
day he's in the hospital he makes '20 phone calls. Did you ever hear of a 
guy with typhoid fever making that many phone calls, calling all these 
friends up? 

The Chairman. What was he calling them about ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is what I would like to know. To tell them 
he had typhoid fever, I guess. He sent people to me to pull off for him 
the suit. He was suing me to straighten himself out. 

The Chairman. What was he suing you for ? 

Mr. Richardson. $50,000. He said I insulted his religion and he 
walked into court, sent his lawyer into court. He wouldn't come into 
court. 

The Chairman. Said what ? 

Mr. Richardson. I insulted his religion. He went to the mayor of 
Philadelphia. He got Walter Annenberg, the mayor of Philadelphia, 
he and Leon Rings, the boxing commissioner. They were having^ 
trouble with gamblers at the fights. 

Just previous to that, the summer previous to that. Judge Landis 
had me assigned to the ball parks to clean the condition up in the ball 
parks, which I did, and as a result of that they asked the mayor to 
detail me out at the Boxing Club to clean the condition up at the Box- 
ing Club because all the gamblers were hollering every fight was a fake. 
"Hang Taylor and throw Rings out. They are a couple of fakers." 

He come in my office and cried real tears for me to come out and 
clean out the joint, which I did, and then they go down to Broad and 



292 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Locust and there he's hugging Blinky Palermo, and that's where him 
and I had an argument. Then he ran to the telephone and got a lawyer, 
and the next day I was sued for $50,000 because I told him who his 
associates were. 

The Chairman. I guess you did sort of talk a little rough with him, 
did you not ? 

Mr. Richardson. I always did. I've got no time for him, never did 
have any time for him, and never will. If I don't have a badge 5 
minutes I will still chase those bums. 

Mr. Rice. What was the story of Mugsy, Al Capone, and Willie 
Weisberg getting out of jail ? 

Mr. Richardson. Willie Weisberg was a chauffeur then for Mugsy 
Taylor. Mugsy Taylor had him put in the hospital through a Dr. 
Goddard, one of the trustees, and a doctor at the Eastern State Peni- 
tentiary. 

The Chairman. He had who put in the hospital ? 

Mr. Richardson. Al Capone, got him a job in the hospital or he 
was in there supposed to have a pain in the neck or something. 

Mr. Rice. Capone was arrested when he was put in there, was he 
not? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right, he v»' as arrested for carrying a gun, 
and he got a year in jail, and he was supposed to be released from the 
Eastern State Penitentiary, but instead walked into a lot of notoriety, 
I guess. He was released by agreement, and Willie Weisberg picked 
him up there and drove him to Mugsy Taylor's house, 544 South 
Forty-ninth Street, I believe. That is where he was living then. 

The Chairman. How do you know that. Chief Richardson? He 
said he did not do it. Of course, I know that his record does not entitle 
him to a lot of belief. 

Mr. Richardson. Whose record are you speaking about, Senator? 

The Chairman. Weisberg. Weisberg was asked about that. He 
said he never drove him any place. 

Mr. Richardson. I am giving you what information I got, Senator. 
I wasn't there to see it. I got it from reliable people, reliable sources 
close to Mugsy Taylor. He spent the night at Mugsy Taylor's home 
and then was driven to Chicago by the chauffeur, Willie Weisberg. 

The Chairman. Willie Weisberg drove him all the way to Chicago, 
according to your information ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is the information. Now maybe there were 
one or two alternates. I wouldn't know. 

The Chairman. Well, Weisberg, for your information, I believe 
lie said he never had seen Al Capone. I think that is what he said. 

Mr. Richardson. I am only giving you the information. I wasn't 
there. I am giving you the information that I have. 

The Chairman. You were not here, unfortunately, and you should 
have been here. 

Mr. Richardson. I would have been glad to be anywhere that those 
two stiffs were. 

The Chairman. But I just wanted to tell you what he said. 

Mr. Richardson. I would be here any hour of the day or night, 
and I don't think either one of them would stay around within a block 
of me if I was here, unless they had protection of the coimnittee. 

The Chairman. What did you do to him ? Would they be afraid ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 293 

Mr. Richardson. Afraid ? They are two of the yellowest ciirs you 
ever laid your eyes on. You threaten to punch that h\<x bvuu in the 
nose, he'd lay on the floor. 

The Chairman. Is that the way most of these 

Mr. Richardson. That is the way they all are; yes. I have been 
chasing them for years, Senator, and 1 intend to chase them more. 

The Chairman. You mean they are not so tough when you really 
get after them? 

Mr. Richardson. They are a dog, a veiy j^ellow dog. A smack in 
the nose and you will see the biggest change in the world in those l)ums. 

The Chairman. Did you ever slap Rosen in the mouth? 

Mr. Richardson. Did I ever slap him? Twice, he'd fall on the 
floor if you took a punch at him. I went to punch him at the ball 
park that night, he bundled over. They had to get a committee to 
get him to go under an operation for appendicitis in prison. He had 
to get a selection of doctors oif a big board in the Philadelphia General 
Hospital for an operation. That's how scared he was to get operated 
on. If he got his nose bloodied, he'd run. You don't know this scum. 
I know them. 

The Chairman. Well, I am getting better acquainted with them. 

Mr. Richardson. They are a lot of crumbs. Senator. Just imagine, 
there is a man that was killed here in Washington, had a family. 
Just by the grace of God that a good witness saw it, or they would 
have got away with it. There's two of the mob, Grossman and Scalley 
they killed in 1938. They were pinched right on the scene of the crime, 
had no witnesses against them. One guy, getting in the way, stuck 
up a painter, took his ladder, his hat and his coat off him so he could 
get out of the door. When we went to get the painter to identify him 
when we pinched him, the painter was scared to death. He is afraid 
of getting killed. That is the type of people I am chasing out of 
Philadelphia, and I keep out of Philadelphia. There is nobody put- 
ting the bite on anybody in Philadelphia while I am around there. 

The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. There was some question about whether a package of 
$500 was ever turned over to you at Shibe Park. 

Mr. Richardson. Well, I see where he denied it. He never gave 
me anything. He ain't told anybody he ever give me any money. He 
only told you he give me a couple of shirts, neckties, and a clock. Did 
he send any fruit to me or anything? I see where he entertained me 
in night clubs. I never go to night clubs. I could go to night clubs 
every night. I could be a guest every night. Why should I get a 
bum like him ? All I take is two or three bottles of beer. Why do I 
need a bum like him to take me to a night club ? 

Mr. Rice. Stromberg said, "I think I took him to Billy Rose's 
Horseshoe." 

Mr. Richardson. Why, that stiff ; I never seen Billy Rose's Horse- 
shoe. He w^ould tell you anything. Why shouldn't he tell you any- 
thing ? He is without a reputation, he's not even got a character. He'd 
tell you anything. 

I am stopping them guys from taking millions of dollars off of 
people around Philadelphia. Yes ; they would manufacture anything 
for me. Mugsy Taylor and them, they had witnesses. Why didn't 
they go into court on the suit ? They run out. They were represented 



294 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

by an able attorney, a guy that rnn for governor, Eichardson Dilworth. 
He went into court, withdrew the suit. They said they had no case. 
I didn't withdraw any suit. I didn't get scared like Taylor did. 

The Chairman. Well, how^ do you think he ever thought up the 
matter about a clock? I mean that seems to be an unusual thing to 
pick out. 

Mr. Richardson. I don't know. Senator. I never got no clock oft' 
him. 

The Chairman. Did you ever get a clock from anybody? 

Mr. Richardson. Oh, yes ; I got a clock at home. The clock I got 
on my mantlepiece now I got from friends of mine. 

The Chairman. Maybe he gave it to somebody else and they gave 
it to you. 

Mr. Richardson. No ; nobody ever give me a clock from him. 

The Chairman. How do you figure he ever thought that one up? 

Mr. Richardson. He is liable to think anything. He is a desperate 
man. Senator. He is getting chased around the country. Wherever 
he goes, I tell them who he is and what he does. He would probably 
scheme up anything to get a crack at me. 

The Chairman. You think he is just trying to embarrass you? 

Mr. Richardson. Embarrass me ? If he would have said it maybe 
years ago when I was a detective. He tells you in 1939, '41. 

The Chairman. I must say frankly that that looks like what he 
is trying to do. 

Mr. Richardson. I will stand up against him anywhere or against 
anybody. Everybody around Philadelphia knows I've been giving 
him a tough time; giving the whole mob a tough time. Any police 
official, any Government official will tell you that I don't allow them 
around there. 

The Chairman. He said he came in when he wanted to. 

Mr. Richardson. He come in when he wanted to ? 

The Chairman. Yes; that you never bothered him. 

Mr. Richardson. Then why would he ask permission, send some- 
body to me to get permission to go see one of his friends laid out, 
if he come in and went out whenever he wanted to? People don't 
ask for those kind of things. 

The Chairman. What is that about? I did not know about it. 

Mr. Richardson. Slim Downey, one of the guys he says was his 
partner with Tommy Leonard, Tommy Leonard used to run his busi- 
ness for him. He hasn't been seen nor heard of since. He's been 
buried in concrete or something. Nobody ever heard of Tommy 
Leonard ever since that investigation. He knew too much. He hasn't 
been around. 

We made every effort, notified every police department in the coun- 
try to try and arrest Tommy Leonard. Never heard tell of him. No- 
body ever heard tell of him. 

The Chairman. You mean Tommy Leonard, Nick Rosen, and his 
partner disappeared ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. The district attorney has tried in 
every effort trying to locate him, and the police department at Phila- 
delphia ; never been heard tell of since. 

The Chairman. How long has that been they have been looking for 
him? 

Mr. Richardson. Well, I would say since 1934 and 1935. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE, COMMEKCE 295 

The Chairman. So your theory is he got hiid out somewhere? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

The Chairman. What was it he asked your permission to do? To 
come in ? 

Mr. Richardson. Slim Downey died of consumption. That is one 
of the men he says was a partner, but he wasn't a partner of Nick 
Rosen. He was just one of the lieutenants. 

The Chairman. Did Nick have a pretty big business in Philadelphia 
at one time? 

Mr. Richardson. I just told you $27,000 a day he had in Phila- 
delphia in 1934. We raided the bank. 

The Chairman. In 1944? 

Mr. Richardson. 1934. I haven't seen the man since we brought 
him back from New York, and he hasn't seen me, and neither has 
Willie Weisberg. 

The Chairman. Let's fi:et these things about these 

Mr. Rice. I think by name the only place mentioned was Billy Rose's 
Horseshoe, and I think we have Mr. Richardson's answer very em- 
phatically on that. 

The Chairman. I think he said three or four times you came to New 
York. 

Mr. Richardson. No. I took my son to the football game, Army 
and Michigan, here just while your committee was in session in Phila- 
delphia. 

The Chairman. I am not talking about that. I am talking about 
Tvhat Rosen said. 

Mr. Richardson. Yes, I understand he said he took me to boxing, 

Mr. Rice (reading) : 

Isn't it a fact that you have taken Richardson to prize fights? 

Mr. Stromberg. Well, probably. 

Mr. Klein. How many times, Mr. Stromberg? 

Mr. Stromberg. Several times. 

Mr. Klein. Give ns 

Mr. Stromberg. Three, fonr times, five times. 

Then they go on talking about going to dinner. Mr. Klein said, 
"You have done a lot of entertaining." 

Mr. Richardson. No; he never was in my presence anywhere out- 
side of bringing him back from New York, and that is the last time 
I saw him outside of the ball park when he was under bail for trial 
up there as a fugitive, and the head man of the numbers. 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Klein said : 

You mean these were just chance meetings, when you took him to the theater? 

Mr. Stromberg. Most of them. 

Mr. Klein. And chance meetings when you took him to the prize fights? 

Mr. Stromberg. No; not at all the times. 

Mr. Klein. Chance meetings when you took him to night clubs? 

Mr. Stromberg. Not all the time. 

Mr. Klein. Weren't they all prearranged meetings? 

Mr. Stromberg. No : they weren't all prearranged. 

Mr. Klein. How many were? 

Mr. Stromberg. Probably maybe two or three. 

Mr. Richardson. How does that sound to you, Mr. Rice? You are 
a man with good knowledge. How does that sound to you? 7^^^ 
sounds ridiculous: don't it? Did you ever hear of anybody inviting 
a guy to a fight without previously making the arrangements? Did 



296 ORGAINIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

you ever hear of any guy taking yon to the tlieater without even mak- 
ing a date with you or something? That sounds like the guy got 
that one from under the table. 

Mr. Rice. I would make this observation : that if being emphatic 
about it means anything, you are way out in front. 

Mr. Richardson. I cooperated with everybody. I am trying to do 
a good job around Philadelphia, and those bums couldn't get in here 
nohow. They've tried every way. They have sent people and done 
things, couldn't get near. 

That is one thing in the world that I will never bow to them stiffs, 
and I will go a long ways to chase them. You can inquire in any 
police department in the country. I give them 100 percent coopera- 
tion in chasing anything like them. 

Mr. Rice. Now there is a fellow by the name of Yacky Zeldon. 

Mr. Richardson. Yacky Zeldon. I know him. He is a neighbor- 
hood man up there. I know him for 20 years. 

Mr. Rice. What business is he in ? 

Mr. Richardson. He is in the nun:ibers business, and he is a book- 
maker. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever have any transactions with him regarding 
furniture ? 

Mr. Richardson. No. I did his brother. 

Mr. Rice. You did his brother? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What is that about? 

Mr. Richardson. Dave. 

^Ir. Rice. What was the story on that furniture ? 

Mr. Richardson. Why, my son is a young doctor. He just got 
married. He got out of the Navy ; I think around 1947 he got out of 
the Navy, He put 4 years 1 month in the Navy. He is a young 
doctor. 

The first day he got out, graduated from school, he went in the 
Navy, got out and he bought a house at 711 Longshore Avenue in 
Philadelphia, a few blocks from me, and he had some little furniture 
and he needed others, so I told his wife to go down and pick it out at 
the Unity Furniture Co., Dave Zeldon, who I know for 25 years, 
25 or 30 years. Dave is not in no rackets of any kind. I bought 
$1,100 worth of furniture off of him, paid in cash. 

Mr. Rice. And that was delivered to your son ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. That is the only transaction that 
I had with him. 

Mr. Rice. Yacky has nothing to do with that furniture company ? 

Mr. Richardson. Not to my knowledge, no. Dave is the only man. 
In fact, I recommended a lot of people to get furniture there because 
the guy would help them out, give them a little saving. 

Mr. Rice. You said the furniture was how much ? 

Mr. Richardson. About $1,100. 

Mr. Rice. Eleven hundred ? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. These people here have acquainted the 
grand jury in Philadelphia of all that. They had an elaborate set-up 
that I had a big yacht, all this and that, big home on the seashore. 
I told the grand jury everything about the house I got down the 
shore. I was getting sued by Mugsy Taylor and I didn't have it in 
my name, and I got an outboard motor I paid 90 bucks for it, a 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMIVIERCE 297 

Johnson outboard motor. I went lishing six times in 1949 and I went 
four times last year. 

Now I told the «^rand jury where I hired the rowboat for 3 bucks 
a day. Four of us went there to hire the rowboat from Mr. Smith 
at Summers Point. 

The Chairman. Who was it said you had a yacht ? 

Mr. EiCHARDsoN. Well, the grand jury asked me about a big yacht 
1 had. I told them I had a $90 motor, a Johnson out-board motor, 
and we hired a rowboat for 3 bucks a day, my son and I and two of 
my friends, two detectives. It cost us 75 cents apiece. 

Mr. Rice. There were some friends of Rosen's, I believe by the name 
of Davey Streetsky and Benny Glass. 

]Mr. Richardson. Davey Glass and Benny Streetsky. I know them 
very well, a couple of number guys got a hotel down in Florida. 

Mr. Rice. Are they Philadel])hia characters^ 

Mr. Richardson. Yes ; they are. 

Mr. Rice. What is their background ? 

Mr. Richardson. They were both in the number business and book- 
makers previous to going down to — they formerly had the Grand 
Hotel down there. They are no tough guys or anything. They are 
just gamblers, but I believe that is wlieie all the mob goes down 
there, but I don't know anything about Davy Glass or Benny Street- 
sky other than they were bookmakers. 

Mr. Rice. Were they run out of Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Richardson. No ; they weren't chased out of Philadelphia, but 
I believe they had several arrests in Philadelphia. I didn't have any 
charge. 

Mr. Rice. They went to the Sands Hotel ? 

Mr. Richardson. Sands Hotel; yes. They have got a beautiful 
place down there. 

The Chairman. Chief, I did not hear all of your testimony in 
Philadelphia or all of the hearing up there, but we were considerably 
impressed by the extensiveness of the numbers racket in Philadelphia 
when we were up there. It seemed to be operating pretty generally. 
What has been done about it up there ? 

Mr. Richardson. Up there ? Well, I think they've found the right 
solution to it. 

The Chairman. You have been taken out of that detail, have you 
not? 

Mr. Richardson. I never had the detail, only like a special request 
that was granted to me to go out and knock off certain banks like 
the director of public safety would give me a detail. He would 
say, "There's a joint here. Clean it out." I would go there, clean 
it out. The men would be convicted. Noav the last time I done that 
was in 1947. I went on five raids. 

The Chairman. Who is in charge of that detail now? 

Mr. Richardson. John Murphy, captain of detectives. 

Tlie Chairman. Is that the head of the vice squad ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is the head of the vice squad now. 

The Chairman. You do not have any supervision over the vice 
squad? 

Mr. Richardson. No ; I don't have any supervision oyer it at all, 
only unless I was called upon by the director or superintendent of 



298 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMENCE 

police or the mayor to go out and make a special raid. I made fiA^e 
special raids in 1947 and every one was convicted. 

The Chairman. I mean is something being done about the numbers 
racket ? 

Mr. Richardson, Oh, yes, yes. Every number writer and every 
number bank now that's pinched gets a bit, and they are getting some 
pretty bad jolts because I believe they have got to pay their wages 
and keep up the rent and everything else for them while they are 
in prison, and I believe the judges of our county police court 

The Chairman. I know as of the time we were there, Mr. Richard- 
son — I cannot remember the exact figures but every year maj^be there 
would be a thousand numbers cases brought in, always small fines. 

Mr. Richardson. That is right, fines or probation. 

The Chairman. I do not believe over a period of years we ever 
found v/liere anybody had actually put in any time. 

Mr. Richardson. That is right; but now they are starting to give 
them sentences, and it is a big job in the solution of the number racket. 
It is pretty well bent now since these judges have been giving them 
6 months, a year, 2 years. One of them got 2 years here the other 
day, one of the mob here, Happy Provan, a dope peddler and ex- 
convict. 

The Chairman. We had some judges in and tried to encourage 
them to the feeling that results might be better if they did give them 
a little time. 

Mr. Richardson. That is really the answer to the whole thing. 
They just started giving them bits now, and these fellows can't stand 
it. Even the riders that get picked up, they give them 3 and 6 months. 
These fellows have got to pay their wages. If they get 10 and 15 
pinches per week, it's a cinch to grab a guy with a book on him, if he 
gets 3 months and 6 months, this is a pretty bad jolt to him, and that 
is the condition in Philadelphia. 

The judges are sending them all to prison. Very few of them are 
getting away with fines or getting away with any suspended sentences. 

]SIr. Rice. What about that operation at the Sun Hotel in Chester ? 

Mr. Richardson. That was a joint for the mob with a crap game, a 
fellow by the name of Schlemper. They called him the colonel. He 
was one of the boss mans in 1930. He was a tower man in a whore 
house. He is tlije guy that run the joint in Chester. That was a com- 
bination of a whore house and a crap game. 

]Mr. Rice. Did that have anything to do with Willie Weisberg? 

Mv. Richardson. Yes. He is one of the mob, one of the outfit. They 
all get a cut out of what is taken in. 

Mr. Rice. Who is Green? 

Mr. Richardson. That is him. 

]Mr. Rice. How about Doblitz, who is he? 

Mr. Richardson. Doblitz is a guy from Chester. I think it is the 
520 Club or something like that in Chester. 

Mr. Rice. Does he have connection with the Sun Hotel ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. I believe he does. I can't say that 
for sure. 

Mr. Rice. You saw where Willie Weisberg on the telephone called 
16 times in one month. "Who would that be ? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't know. His wife's name is Sonetsky and 
his name is Weisberg. His partner is Spirack, and I believe his tele- 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEBCE 299 

phone name is Spirack. Cappy Hoffman's jjirl had the apartment 
next door, which is his wife now. Whether he lives next door to 
Willie AVeisberg, I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. My point was, 1 saw where he used that Willie Weisberg 
phone to call the Sun Hotel IG times in 1 month recently. What is 
going on there? 

Mr. Richardson. I wouldn't know. Counsel, because I haven't had 
too much to do with him. Willie Weisberg, I haven't seen him for 
years, and in fairness to this big stiff that was here yesterday, I haven't 
seen him for 15 or 10 years, and he hasn't seen me, to my knowledge. 
That is how much he's been around Philadelphia here with me. 

Mr. Rice. What is the situation there with respect to wire service? 
How are the books getting their race results there now? 

Mr. Richardson. The wire service? 

I\Ir. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Richardson. Well, I don't know how they are getting it in 
there now. I understand everything is silent, as far as the wire 
service. I don't know anything about bookmaking or any of that 
gambling racket at all. If I was working on it, I would be familiar 
with everything around it. 

Mr. Rice. Wasn't Malbro up there? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. The joint used to be in Camden there at 
Third and Market, and that is where it came into Philadelphia. It 
came dowm to Jersey and come over here to Philadelphia. 

Mr. Rice. Did not Philadelphia bookies get their wire service from 
Malbro ? 

Mr. Richardson. I believe so. Now, I don't know anything about 
it, but I know that is where it come from. They had a place at 3915 
Bearing Street, and I was operating and I turned it over to the direc- 
tor and he, in turn, give it to the vice-squad head. 

Mr. Ric^e. Who is the director ? 

Mr. RicifARDSON. Director Malone. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever have a list of customers of Malbro ? 

Mr. Richardson. I got a list of names off of Larry Dawn, chief of 
county detectives. 

Mr. Rice. Where is he? Was he ever in the Camden side? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. This was some time after an investigation 
by the State attorney general's office in Trenton of gambling activities 
in Camden. He is a friend of mine, Larry Dawn, who I worked with, 
chief of county detectives over there, and he called me and I sent 
one of our men over there and got it and turned it over to the vice- 
squad head in the presence.of Rosenberg. 

Mr. Rice. This is recently, now? 

Mr. Richardson. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Rosenberg has only been in a short time ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. The date I got it. I think it is 
about 2 years ago, a year and a half ago. 

Mr. Rice. As the result of obtaining that list, which would naturally 
be a list of bookies, would it not, in Philadelphia 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. I think there was about 23 names 
on there. 

Mr. Rice. What did they do as a result of that ? 



300 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEKCE 

Mr. EiCHAKDsoN. I believe they raided the joints that was described 
in that thing, and previous to that I think they were put out of 
business, some of them, during raids. 

Mr. Rice. As far as you know now, there is no wire service into 
Philadelphia? 

Mr. Richardson. I haven't bothered with it. If I was acquainted 
with the work, I would be damn glad to tell you everything about it. 

The Chairman". It is your opinion that Rosen and Weisberg with 
remote control still have some connections with the numbers rackets, 
and what not, in Phialedlphia? 

Mr. Richardson. Senator, I couldn't tell you. The way I believe ? 
Yes; I believe they've got their nose in somewhere, but where, I 
couldn't tell you ? 

The Chairman. That was what you wrote us and that is what you 
wrote Danny Sullivan ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

The Cpiairman. That they were still actually the head of the Phila- 
delphia operations ? 

Mr. Richardson. Oh, no ; I didn't say that. No, no ; wait, Senator. 

The Chairman. As of last year, when you wrote those letters ? 

Mr. Richardson. No; I wrote that letter, I think, in 1949, didn't 
I? That is police information and the background of the men that 
he asked information on. 

The Chairman. You wrote us a letter, I think. 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. 

The Chairman. In July of last year, 1950. 

Mr. Richardson. No; I think it was 

The Chairman. Maybe Mr. Sullivan's letter was a little before 
that, but anyway as of the time you wrote those letters, that is what 
you thought about it ? 

Mr. Richardson. That is right. I still think the same thing of 
them, Senator. They will muscle in wherever they got an opportu- 
nity. They will cut in wherever they got a — they thought they could 
clip you, they would come around and try to take you. 

The Chairman. So you do not have a very high opinion of them? 

Mr. Richardson. I don't know. I know what they are, who they 
are. I know a hell of a lot about them. Senator. 

The Chairman. Chief Richardson, I want you to claim your ex- 
penses for coming down here, your traveling expenses. 

Mr. Richardson. Oh, no. Senator. 

The Chairman. We insist that you do that. I do not want you to be 
out anything for expenses. 

Mr. Richardson. It is not necessary. I come down here to defend 
myself. 

The Chairman. It is quite apparent from this testimony that there 
is a diametrical conflict. I personally am very much impressed and 
persuaded by the testimony of Chief Richardson. 

I am not familiar with all of his efforts toward law enforcement. 
Of course, some people do not like the chief, some people have axes to 
grind, and sonie make complaints. As of the time the committee first 
went up to Philadelphia there was a flourishing numbers racket oper- 
ating in many sections of the town. I do not know whose fault it was, 
but I am glad to hear the chief say that since we have been there and 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEIRCE 301 

talked with the judges, that larger sentences have been imposed and 
it seems to be getting under better control. It is quite evident here 
that somebody has made a false statement. I believe Chief Richard- 
son, as far as I am concerned. 

Mr. Richardson. Thank you, Senator. I appreciate that. 

The Chairman. Is there anything else you want to add? 

Mr. Richardson. No. I just want to say since you people have 
been up there that I want to congratulate you. You are the cause, 
you certainly knocked them out of the box, because they are all 
hollering and got the earache noAv. 

The Chairman. I am glad we have done some good, Chief. 

Chief, I am going to release for public consumption and informa- 
tion your testimony given in executive session before the committee 
in Philadelphia back in October, so that all of your testimony can 
be considered. 

Mr. Richardson. I will be glad to let the people of Philadelphia 
know how I cooperated with you. 

The Chairman. This will not be released until we have copies that 
can go around to all of the press. 

Mr. Richardson. There is Mr. Rice there, and Mr. Klein, came to 
my office. I give them a free hand of anything they wanted; isn't 
that right, Mr. Rice ? 

jSIr. Rice. Splendid cooperation from you. 

Mr. Richardson. I mean I turned the files right over to you. There 
is everything there. If you w^ant to know anything, I will be glad 
to answer it for you. 

Mr. Rice. That is correct. 

The Chairman. Anything else? 

Mr. Rice. I think we have covered everything, Senator. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much for coming down. 

The committee will stand in recess until Thursday. 

(Whereupon, at 4: 35 p. m., the hearing was adjourned, to recon- 
vene on Thursday, February 22, 1951, at 10 a. m.) 



68958 — 51— pt. 11 20 



APPENDIX 



Exhibit No. 1 

Statement by Samuel H. Rosenbekg, Director, Department of Public Safety, 

August S, 1950 

The record of the bureau of police in suppressing vice and gambling in 
Phihxdelphia is an outstanding one. It is a record in which I take great personal 
pride. It is a record which could not be accumulated by a department com- 
placent in matters of vice and gambling. 

Of particular significance in the attached figures are the number of book- 
making establishment headquarters and numbers banks which have been raided. 
These are the nerve centers in the conduct of the illegal activities without 
which it becomes extremely difficult to operate. 

In addition to being the third-largest city in the country, Philadelphia is a 
great metropolitan center. Gambling in various forms undoubtedly exists, but 
it is becoming more and more difficult for the gamblers to ply their trade. The 
question is not whether gambling exists but whether the police are doing 
anything about it. A fair analysis will prove that the Philadelphia police are 
doing a great deal about it. 

It is unfortunate that in every political campaign open war is declared on the 
police, always in terms of the greatest generalities. It is used by political 
opportunists because it makes good reading and is possibly good for a few 
votes. 

Several of the sections of Philadelphia most often mentioned by critics are 
commanded by police officers of unquestioned integrity who have full and 
absolute control over police matters. They have the authority to cope with every 
situation without the slightest restraint from anyone. These officers would be 
the first to say that, in spite of the freedom which they have in doing their 
police work, gambling can be suppressed but never entirely eliminated. Anyone 
claiming that gambling and vice can be completely eliminated Is either naive or 
insincere. 

In a great metropolitan center it is manifestly unfair to spot a bookmaker 
doing business at a given point and cite that case as proof sufficient of wide- 
spread police laxity and corruption. 

About a month ago the Philadelphia newspapers obtained a list of alleged 
booking headquarters from the congressional committee investigating gambling 
activitie.s. Without advance publicity and without the knowledge of the police, 
the newspapers investigated every name and address appearing on the list. Not a 
single one proved to be in existence. This is proof of my contention that the 
gambling element is being kept on the run. 

Life and Look magazines recently ran extensive articles on gambling activities 
throughout the country. Certainly there is some significance in the fact that, 
while most of the large cities were cited, Philadelphia was not even mentioned 
by name. In any discussion of big-time gambling and gamblers, Philadelphia 
is rarely if ever named. I am satisfied that Philadelphia is the cleanest city 
in the country in that respect. 

A good indication of the effectiveness of the police is the loud complaints of 
protests expressed by people engaged in these rackets. 

I say with complete confidence that not a single big-time gambling establish- 
ment exists in Philadelphia. There are no big syndicates, no gangs ; there are 
no established houses of prostitution. Activities of this sort operate furtively. 
They operate with complete insecurity. They are raided and driven from 
location to location. They have no protection because under existing arrange- 
ments they do not know which of several police units will strike next. There 

303 



304 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



is a tremendous backlog of untried cases. Wliat more can the police do? We 
have had encouraging indications that tlie courts are adopting a firmer attitude 
in dealing with cases involving gambling and vice. Such a disposition would 
be of inestimable help to the police. 

Police work in all its branches — in crime, in gambling, in trafiic control — is 
generally divided into two phases — prevention and detection. Not evei-y violation 
of law can be prevented, nor can every violation be detected. The proper ap- 
praisal of any police department must be based on its records in prevention 
and detection. In such an appraisal the record of the Philadelphia Police 
Department is excellent. 

I would welcome proof supported by evidence from any source that would 
disclose illicit operations. The citizens of Philadelphia may be sure that action 
would be certain and swift. 

I urge the faithful members of the bureau of police to continue their work, 
which is becoming more and more effective every day, in every field of activity. 
I have complete confidence in them, and I feel that the great majority of our 
citizens share this confidence. 



Numbers lottery banks raided during period from Jan. 1, 1949, to June 30, 1950 





Number of 
banks 


Number of 

defendants 

arrested 


Number of 

defendants 

tried in court 


Number of 

defendants 

pending trial 

in court 


Year 1949: 


43 
14 


lis 
36 


96 
27 


11 




1 






Total 


59 


149 


123 


12 


Year 1950 (January 1 to June 30) : 

Vice squad 

Other units - - 


24 
22 


69 
43 


17 



49 
30 






Total 


46 


112 


17 


79 







Horse racing gamWmg headquarters raided during period from Jan. 1, 1949, to 

June 30, 1950 





Number of 
of headquar- 
ters 


Number of 

defendants 

an-ested 


Number of 
defendants 
tried in 
court 


Number of 

defendants 

pending trial 

in court 


Year 1949: 

Vice squad -- _.- ... 


79 
65 


140 
114 


120 
81 


3 


Other units 


4 






Total 


144 


254 


201 


7 






Year 1950 (January 1 to June 30) : 
Vice squad _ _ _ 


50 

89 


86 
134 


18 
14 


62 


Other units 


88 






Total 


139 


220 


32 


150 







ORGANIZED CRIME IN liSTTERSTATE COMMEKCB 



305 



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306 ORGAlSnZED CRIME, IN INTERSTATE COMMEKCE 

DePAETMENT of PtJBLIC SAFETY, 

Bureau of Police — Vice Squad, 

Philadelphia, Pa. 
From : Commanding OflScer, Vice Squad. 
To : Director of Public Safety. 

Subject : Comprehensive report of arrests, and analysis, for period of January 
1, 1946, to June 30, 1950, of gambling, vice, and liquor law violations. 

In compliance with orders, a survey has been made in every district and imit 
in the bureau of police for statistical purposes, showing the results which have 
been attained during the period of January 1, 1946, to June 30, 1950, in enforce- 
ment of laws against gambling, liquor, and vice. 

I am submitting herewith, mimeographed forms containing a recapitulation of 
all the data compiled in the course of this survey, and calling attention to the 
various high lights and trends which are of particular interest and significance. 
It will be noted that during the year of 1949, and in the first 6 months of 
1950, vice, gambling, and liquor law violations in Philadelphia have been sub- 
jected to constantly increasing numbers of raids and arrests by the vice squad, 
the narcotics squad, and special details working under inspectors in command 
of the various police divisions. 

numbers lottery arrests 

There has been an iniprecedented increase in the number of arrests for setting 
up and maintaining an illegal lottery (numbers game), particularly in the 
first police division (South Philadelphia area) ; and the second police division 
(central city area) ; third police division (North Philadelphia area) ; and the 
fifth police division (West Philadelphia area) ; where new inspectors have been 
placed in command. 

As a result of the over-all drive against vice and gambling which has gained 
steady impetus during the tenure of Director of Public Safety Samuel H. Rosen- 
berg, there are now 969 defendants charged with setting up and maintaining 
an illegal lottery (numbers game) awaiting trial for court. Included among 
these defendants are numbers bankers, pick-up men, and writers ; many of 
whom are old offenders who have numerous previous convictions on record, but 
who have usually escaped punishment by the payment of fines with probationary 
sentences. It is now apparent, however, that the judges in our courts are tak- 
ing cognizance of these facts, and there are indications that some may start 
sentencing old offenders to prison when the courts open next month, at the end 
of the summer recess. The records show that several old offenders who were 
recently convicted on numbers lottery charges, were given jail sentences just 
before the courts recessed for the summer months, an action which in the 
past has been seldom resorted to. With the heavy backlog of untried lottery 
cases now pending court action, this could well he the beginning of a drive 
that may eventually smash the numbers game in Philadelphia ; if this is ac- 
complished, Philadelphia will have the distinction of becoming the first large 
city in the United States to break up this type of gambling. 

An analysis of the data compiled shows that in 1946, 1,137 persons were ar- 
rested on the charge of setting up and maintaining an illegal lottery (numbers 
game) ; all of these defendants were principals, no frequenters have been in- 
cluded ; of this number, only 773 were held for court. In 1947, a total of 1,372 
persons were arrested on this charge, and of that number, 1,049 were held for 
court. In 1948. 1,311 persons were arrested on numbers lottery charges, and 
1,188 were held for court by the magistrates. 

In 1949, 1,896 defendants were arrested on numbers lottery charges ; of this 
number, 1,675 were held for court ; and for the 6-month period of January 1, 1950, 
to June 30, 1950, 1,487 defendants were arrested on these charges, and 1,296 were 
held for court. 

The records show that approximately 88 percent of the persons arrested on 
numbers lottery charges are now being held for court liy the magistrates, which 
is a 20-percent increase in the 4'/2-year period from January 1, 1946, to June 30, 
1950. Convictions In court in numbers lottery cases show even a higher per-' 
centage, as slightly over 90 percent of vice squad cases have resulted in convic- 
tions during the past 18 months. Using these figures, it is logical to conclude that 
the same ratio would apply to arrests made in the various districts by other 
units. 

The grand total for the period of 4% years from January 1, 1946, to June 
30, 1950, shows that in Philadelphia the police arrested 7,203 on the charge 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 307 

■of setting up and maintaining an illegal lottery, and of this number, 5,981 were 
held for court. Of the 7,203 arrests, 4,!)7() were made by tlie vice squad. 

Convictions have always run very high in numbers lottery cases, but the pun- 
ishment has been extremely mild. Vice squad records show that during the 41/2- 
year period cited, the average number of convictions were never under 82 per- 
cent of the total number of defendants brought to trial. It will be noted that 
the total of 1,487 principals arrested on numbers lottery charges during the 
first 6 months of 1950, exceeds by 176 the entire number of defendants arrested 
during the entire year of 1948. 

POOL SELLING AND BOOKMAKING ARRESTS 

Statistics covering arrests for pool selling and bookmaking on the horse 
races, another form of gambling which has created a law-enforcement problem 
all over the Nation, show that the special units of the Phildelphia Bureau of 
Police have been very active during the years of 1949 and 1950 in combating 
this form of gambling. During the period of January 1, 1950, to June 30, 1950, a 
total of 404 defendants were arrested in the entire city for pool selling and boojc- 
making on the horse races (frequenters not included), and of this number, 313 
were held for court, indicating a general average of 77 percent of the defendants 
in this category held by the magistrates for court trial. During the year of 
1949, a total of 617 persons were arrested on this charge, and 497 were held 
for court, indicating a general average of 81 percent held for court by the 
magistrates. These results are very encouraging when compared with previous 
years. In 1946, for instance, a total of 412 persons were arrested on pool 
selling and bookmaking charges, of which, only 119 were held for court, indicating 
that the general average of persons held for court on this charge 4i/^ years 
ago was very low, in fact, slightly under 30 percent. At that time it was a com- 
mon practice for magistrates to impose fines upon defendants on gambling 
charges, which probably accounts for the low percentage of persons held for 
court in this category. 

The total number of defendants arrested for the 4iA-year period, January 1, 
1946, to June 30, 1950, is 2,449, of which, 1,580 were held for court. The courts 
and juries in dealing with offenders of this type have shown extreme leniency, 
and the percentage of convictions are much lower than in lottery cases. 

These arrests for pool selling and bookmaking on the horse races were made 
in all types of places, such as stores, tap rooms, pool rooms, luncheonettes, oflace 
buildings, dwelling houses, and on the highways. The records show that many 
small bookmakers were arrested for plying their trade on the streets, but among 
the places raided were also a number of so-called horse race gambling head- 
quarters or "ofHces," which are generally hidden from public view, and utilized 
for keeping records of bets transmitted by the small bookmakers, scattered 
around the city. Many defendants arrested in these "offices" have criminal 
records showing numerous arrests and convictions on gambling charges, but 
no jail sentences. 

During the first 6 months of 1950, 202 defendants were arrested by the vice 
squad for pool selling and bookmaking on the horse races ; of this number, 90 
defendants were engaged in the operation of horse-race gambling headquarters 
or "offices." The remaining 112 persons were arrested on the streets and in 
stores and other places. It is worthy of note, that of the 90 defendants arrested 
for operating gambling horse-race headquarters, 78 in this more important 
category were held for court, but the majority of tliem have not been brought 
to trial, as yet. 

GAMBLING HOUSE ARRESTS 

In the data submitted covering arrests for gambling and vice in the city 
of Philadelphia, it will be noted that 1,651 persons were arrested in the 4i^-year 
period from January 1, 1946, to June 30, 1950. for keeping and maintaining a 
gambling house (frequenters not included) ; of this number 648 were held for 
court. This is a rather general charge applied to persons who operate dice 
games and card games on a commercial basis. In this classification, the first 
6 months of 1950 also shows a large increase in arrests. Two hundred and 
twelve persons were arrested during this period on this particular charge and 
103 were held f-or court. The number of defendants held for court by the magis- 
trates has no particular significance, as the majority of raids of this nature are 
made on places where small-scale gambling activities are found involving card 
and dice games. 



308 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Very few large gambling establishments have attempted to operate in Philadel- 
phia in recent years, which is borne out by the fact that Philadelphia police are 
kept busy keeping the so-called "luggers" and "steerers" from congregating on 
the streets. These individuals make their livelihood by transporting persons 
in automobiles from cities which have no open gaml)ling house in operation to 
other locations, usually within a 30- to 40-mile radius, where establishments 
featuring dice, cards, roulette, and similar games of chance are open to the 
gambling clientele. 

GAMBLING DEVICES CONFISCATED 

Statistics compiled show a decided decrease in the last 3 years in the confisca- 
tion of gambling devices such as slot machines and punchboards in Philadelphia. 
This decrease can doubtlessly be attributed to the fact that the police have re- 
lentlessly waged war on this type of gambling, and whenever gamliling devices 
of this character have been found, they have been confiscated and destroyed. 

It will be noted that in the year 194S, a total of 546 gambling devices were 
confiscated ; this includes the regular "one-armed bandit" type machines, the 
penny slot machines, punchboards, and various other types of gambling devices. 
In 1949, the total number confiscated dropped to 150, and during the first 6 months 
of 1950, 104 such devices were confiscated. In cases of a serious nature the 
owners, distributors, and operators of gambling devices have been arrested on 
the charge of setting up and maintaining gambling devices. Prosecution on this 
charge, and the destruction of all devices confiscated, has brought satisfactory 
results in suppressing this type of gambling. 

LIQUOR .\BRESTS 

^statistics on liquor law violations also show an upward trend in arrests during 
the years of 1949 and 1950. In 1949, there were 1,088 persons arrested on charges 
of violation of the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Act (frequenters not included) ; 
of this number, 938 were held for court, which is considered a very high per- 
centage. In the period of January 1, 1950, to June 30, 1950, another increase 
is shown ; 715 persons being arrested and GOO held for court. These figures indi- 
cate that a percentage of 85 percent of all defendants arrested in this classifica- 
tion were held for court. The total number of arrests in this category for the 
years 1946 to June 30, 19.50, are 4,278 defendants, and 3,376 defendants held for 
court. For the purpose of comparison, attention is called to the years of 1946, 
1947, and 1948, when the arrests amounted to about 825 persons annually, and 
the percentage held for court was about 12 percent lower. In the courts, however, 
the percentage of convictions is somewhat lower, and offenders are seldom 
sentenced to prison. 

The arrests in this category include many types of violators, such as the opera- 
tors of illicit stills, bootleggers set up for business in speakeasies reminiscent of 
prohibition days, and law breakers in licensed places such as clubs and tap 
rooms. In the period of January 1 to June 30, 1950, mentioned above, the vice 
squad alone arrested 411 defendants for violation of the Pennsylvania Liquor 
Control Act. Three hundred forty persons were apprehended in the operation 
of speakeasies, 15 were caught operating stills, one transporting liquor on the 
highway, and the 55 remaining were involved in violations taking place in 
licensed establishments. 

PROSTITUTION AND ASSIGNATION ARRESTS 

The records compiled on prostitution and assignation also indicate increased 
police activity against this type of law violation. During the first 6 months 
of 1950, 384 arrests were made in the entire city for prostitution and assigna- 
tion, and 358 defendants were held for court or sent to the misdemeanants 
division of the municipal court to be dealt with summarily by the court. A 
total number of 2,117 defendants have been arrested on charges of prostitution 
and assignation during the period of January 1, 1946, to June 30, 1950 (frequenters 
not included), and of this number 2,117 were held. A small percentage of the 
defendants were convicted and sent to the county prison, others were sentenced 
to the house of correction, while a large percentage of offenders were placed under 
medical treatment and put on probation. 

The increase in this category, however, is also worthy of mention because the 
records show that streetwalkers now form almost 50 percent of the defendants 
arrested on these charges, and very few defendants were apprehended in houses 



orgajstized crime in interstate commeirce 309 

of prostitution. The commei'Cialized house of prostitution wliich flourished some 
years ago in large cities has been completely wiped out in Philadelphia. Many 
prostitutes, nevertheless, continue to operate in rooming houses, small hotels, 
and apartments, but there is no evidence of any organized traflic in vice of this 
nature here. 

NARCOTICS AllKESTS 

strong enforcement of the narcotics laws in Philadelphia is reflected in the 
figiires which show 319 defendants were arrested on narcotics charges for the 
first 6 months of 19u0, and 275 were held for court. A comparison of this 18-month 
period with the three preceding years shows a notable increase in police activity 
in the enforcement of the narcotics laws. The total number of defendants held 
for court for narcotics offenses has consistently run around 83 percent during 
the entire period of January 1, 1946, to June 30, 1950, and the courts have generally 
dealt more severely with defendants involved in the drug traffic than those 
arrested for gambling. It appears that illicit commercialized dealers in narcotic 
drugs and many others in the traffic, including the peddlers and addicts, lieep out 
of I'hiladelphia because the courts support the efforts of the police in the 
suppression of this type of vice. 

Craig D. Ellis, Inspector, Vice Sffiiad. 



Exhibit No. 5 
Department of Public Safety 

BUREAU of police 

philadelphia 

Prisoner's Criminal Record 

Name : Harry Rosen. White. Age 31 in 1932. 

Alias Herman Stromberg, Hyman Stromberg, Nig Rosen, Joseph Bloom. 

Number of photograph : No. 858240. 

Criminal Record (as far as known) : 

November 18, 1928 : Reckless discharge of firearms on highway ; larceny 
of auto; carrying concealed deadly weapon; assault and battery; and 
aggravated assault and battery to kill. June 21, 1929, not guilty, direction 
of court, discharged — Judge ShuU. 

1915 : New York, N. Y. ; juvenile delinquency, sent to Jewish protectory. 

1918 : New York. N. Y. ; robbery, discharged. 

January 20, 1920 : New York, N. Y. ; robbery, discharged and returned to 
Jewish protectory for violation of parole, January 22. 1920. 

April 20, 1922 : New York, N. Y. ; revolver, discharged, June 7, 1922. 

December 20, 1922 : New York, N. Y'. ; attempt burglary, January 19, 1923, 
2^/2 years Elmira State Penitentiary. 

October 7, 1925 ; New York, N. Y'. ; robbery, discharged. 

July 9, 1930 : White Plains, N. Y. ; violation of National Prohibition Act, 
no disposition. 

March 19, 1932 : Idle disorderly person, suspicious character ; discharged. 
Magistrate Roberts. 

April 12. 1935 : New York, N. Y. ; fugitive from Philadelphia, Pa. ; turned 
over to Philadelphia, Pa. 

April 30, 1935: Setting up and maintaining an illegal lottery; conspiracy; 
June 4, 1935 to June 8, 1935. Not guilty ; discharged — Judge Alessandroni. 

September 15, 1936 : Media, Pa. ; inquiry. 

January 5, 1937: Camden, N. J.; suspicious character; investigation; 
association with criminals ; disorderly person ; 6 months, Camden County 
jail and fined $100. Served sentence. 



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