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Full text of "Investigation of organized crime in interstate commerce. Hearings before a Special Committee to Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, United States Senate, Eighty-first Congress, second session, pursuant to S. Res. 202 .."

INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME 
IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



HEARINGS 

BEFORE THE 

SPECIAL COMMIHEE TO INVESTIGATE 

OBGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-SECOND CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

PDESUAMT TO 

S. Res. 202 

(Slst Cong.) 
AND 

S. Res. 129 

(82dgCong.) 

A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AN INVESTIGATION OF 
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



PART 14 



MAY 29, JUNE 7, 12, 26, AND 27, 1951 



NARCOTICS 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce 






>^V 







INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME IN 
INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



HEARINGS 

U.S C!fiTvS(;£6S.S<^ I , BEFORE A 

"^ SPECIAL COMMITTEE 
TO INVESTIGATE ORGANIZED CRIME 
IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-SECOND CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION- 
PURSUANT TO 

S. Res. 202 

(81st Cong.) 
AXI» 

S. Res. 129 

(82d Cong.) 

A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AN INVESTIGATION OP 
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



PART 14 



MAY 29, JUNE 7, 12, 26, AND 27, 1951 



NARCOTICS 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee To Investigate Organized 
Crime in Interstate Commerce 




UNITED STATES 

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 

WASHINGTON : 1951 



SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE ORGANIZED CRIIME IN 

-- INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

(Pursuant to S. Res. 2o2, 81st Cong.) 

HERBERT R. OCONOR, Maryland, Chairman 
LESTER C. HUNT, Wyoming CHARLES W. TOBEY, New Hampshire 

ESTES KEFAUVER, Tennessee ALEXANDER WILEY, Wisconsin 

Richard Moser, C7iie/ Counsel 



CONTENTS 



Witness: Paga 

Anslinger, Harry J., Commissioner, Federal Bureau of Narcotics, 

Department of the Treasury, Washington, D. C 426 

Belk, George M., narcotics agent. Federal Bureau of Narcotics, 

Department of the Treasury, Washington, D. C 403 

Cunningham, George W., Deputy Commissioner, Bureau of Narcotics, 

Department of the Treasury, Washington, D. C 420 

Darby, G. B., Chicago, 111 293 

Deimel, Charles J., Detroit, Mich 292 

Donnell, Harold E., superintendent of prisons. State of Maryland, 

Baltimore, Md ~ 1 

Dumpson, James R., consultant on correction and delinquency, Wel- 
fare Council, New York, N. Y J 261 

ElUs, Ross B., agent. Federal Bureau of Narcotics, Department of the 

Treasury, Washington, D. C 412 

Hepbron, James M., administrative assistant to the Special Committee 

To Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce 151 

Higgins, Mrs. Lois, director, Crime Prevention Bureau, Chicago, IIL 281 
Isbell, Dr. Harris, Director of Research, United States Public Health 

Service Hospital, Lexington, Ky 139, 286 

Landy, Matthew, Palisades Park," N. J 339' 

Martino, Gaetano, Brooklyn, N. Y 388 

Matranga, Pasquale, Brooklyn, N. Y., accompanied by his daughter, 

Mrs. Maria de Auria, as interpreter ' 329 

Siragusa, Charles, agent. Federal Bureau of Narcotics, Department of 

the Treasury, Washington, D. C 343- 

Vogel, Dr. Victor H., medical officer in charge. United States Public 

Health Service Hospital, Lexington, Ky 129, 226, 236 

White, Violet Hill, pohce officer, Baltimore, Md 448 

Witnesses (anonymous) 11 

29, 40, 54, 62, 66, 71, 84, 89, 93, 97, 99, 104, 108, 153, 157, 
160, 162, 167, 171, 182, 189, 194, 203, 211, 216, 220, 252, 
271, 294, 305, 314, 323, 358, 367. 380, 432, 436, 440 
Exhibits: 

Charts prepared by the staff of the committee based on material 

secured from local enforcement agencies 230' 

Document entitled "The Proposed 'Dope Must Go' Program of the 

South Side Community Committee" 457 

Document entitled "Dope Must Go" Report 457 

Report of Detroit Grand Jury, re Narcotics 453 

Two tables of figures; one entitled "Addict Admissions by Calendar 

Year, Lexington Hospital Only," and a breakdown of these figures 

referring to those under 21, according to sex, race, and age groups. _ 131 



INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CEIME IN INTERSTATE 
COMMERCE 



TUESDAY, MAY 29, 1951 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee To In'stestigate Organized, 

Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Jessup^ Md. 
executive session 

The committee met, pursuant to call of the chairman, at 10 a. m., in 
the Mainland House of Correction, Jessup, Md., Senator Herbert R. 
O'Conor (chairman) presiding. 

Present : Senator ()'Conor. 

Also present : Richard Moser, chief counsel ; James Hepbron, admin- 
istrative assistant. 

The Chairman. The hearing is called to order. 

Please note the fact that the hearing is being held pursuant to a 
resolution adopted by the entire committee, authorizing the chairman^ 
the present presiding officer, to designate a subcommittee, which has 
been done, naming tJie Senator from Maryland as the subcommittee. 

Mr. Donnell, will you be good enough to take a chair, and just for 
the record give us your name. 

STATEMENT OF HAROLD E. DONNELL, SUPERINTENDENT OF 
PRISONS, STATE OF MARYLAND 

Mr. Donnell. My name is Harold E. Donnell. 

The Chairman. Will you kindly state your official position and the 
length of time in which you have been engaged in this work. 

Mr. Donnell. I am superintendent of prisons of the State of Mary- 
land, and have been since 1930. 

Previous to that I was in the juvenile field, and for 61/2 years was 
superintendent of the Maryland Training School for Boys. 

Prior to that I was superintendent of a reformatory for men in the 
State of Maine. I was an administrative officer of the United States 
naval prison during the First World War, and I started my correc- 
tional work in a school for boys at Howard, R. I. 

The Chairman. I think you have also been an official of the Amer- 
ican Prison Congress? 

Mr. Donnell. I was president of the American Prison Association 
in 1947, and in 1950 I was president of the Southern States Prison 
Association, so that I have had a rather long tour of duty in this 
field. 

The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Moser. 



2 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. Mr. Donnell, would you give us some information re- 
garding the increase in the number of commitments for narcotic drug 
law violations within jour experience. 

Mr. Donnell. So far as the State of Maryland is concerned, I 
always considered that in our institutions we were very free from 
narcotics over the years. We had a very small number coming into 
our institutions. I cannot speak as to whether or not they were held 
in jail, but we have had very few of them in the penal system until 
recently. 

This year, due to, in the last 6 months, a drive that apparently has 
been put on, we have been having increasing numbers. This institu- 
tion, I believe, today has close to 50 narcotic cases in here. 

At the reformatory for women, I checked yesterday, and they told 
me they had about 14, and most of those at the reformatory for men 
are traffickers in drugs, rather than addicts to the drug habit. 

I would say at this institution that it is probably the reverse, with 
maybe a comlDination, but we have been having a great many of them 
come in here during the last 6 months. We have a few, and I cannot 
tell you the exact number — possibly Dr. Fitzgibbons can — at the re- 
formatory for males where we take care of the youthful offenders. 
There are very few of them at the Maryland Penitentiaiy. 

I checked up a little last night, and I would say that we at the present 
time only have probably 1% percent narcotic cases in the prison sys- 
tem of the State of Maryland, as compared to figures that I saw last 
night where tliey had 11 percent in the Federal prison system. 

Mr. MosER. May I interrupt just a moment, Mr. Donnell? 

Mr. Donnell. Certainly. 

Mr. Moser. When you speak of narcotic cases, I assume that there 
is a distinction between cases of prisoners who are in on a charge of 
violating the narcotic laws, and prisoners who are in on other charges 
but happen to be users of narcotics ; which are you speaking of, both ? 

Mr. Donnell. I am speaking of the ones now in on narcotic charges, 
but I have not, over the years, seen very much in the way of addiction 
to drugs in the criminal population of the State. 

Occasionally we have had something like that. In the last week 
or so, in Maryland, that has been brought out in the press, but there 
has been some use of dope at the penitentiary, and over the years we 
have had some cases where we have had some difficulty with certain 
prisoners trying to get certain forms of dope. 

It has not been morphine or cocaine, heroin, or anything of that sort, 
but it has been solely in drugs, luminal, and veronal. We had a run on 
veronal about 1930, when I first took over the prison system of the 
State over in the penitentiary. We finally found that a guard was 
peddling veronal, which is about 35 cents a Jbottle, to the inmates of the 
institution. 

More recently we had a run on benzedrine, which followed the 
Second World War, and that was all over the country, in practically 
every prison. It sort of pepped the individual up, and gave him a 
little more courage, and they would take an inhaler and split it up 
and peddle it around for cigarettes, or in one case, in this institution, 
I caught a guard buying it in the drug store, bringing it in and selling 
it to the prisoners, and he is no longer with us, of course. 



ORGANIZED CRIME EN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 3 

We licked that one by the use of the American Prison Association, 
We indicated that prisons throughout the country were finding this 
as a problem, and that we were going to do something about benze- 
drine, in the prisons, and we got the manufacturer, and he decided 
rather than to have a Federal law passed and being put under inspec- 
tion, which we already had a bill drawn for, that he was going to 
doctor that up so that it would not be healthy for people to use in 
prisons. 

I don't think we have had any difficulty in this State, at least on the 
benzedrine situation, for nearly 2 years. 

The drugs that were recently referred to at the penitentiary, they 
were capsules — or not capsules, but pills — that were brought in there 
for ordinary treatment, and apparently someone would tell us, and 
in this shipment that came in there, some bright fellow got a hold 
of about 1,000 or 900 of those tablets. 

JSIr. MosEK. What kind of drugs were they? 

Mr. DoNNELL. Barbiturates, saline drugs, all of them. 

Mr. Mo ER. Phenobarbital ? 

Mr. DoNNELL. Yes ; phenobarbital and other saline drugs. I think 
that probably was done by an individual who thought he was smart. 
We don't know definite who did it. We know who turned them over 
to us, but we never could catch up entirely with those things. 

But we have had no cases where we have seen any use of heroin or 
any morphine or cocaine, to my knowledge, for some time. 

We had it several years ago, I think we lost a few morphine tablets 
in this institution. 

Mr. MosER. Do you ever have cases in which you suspect people of 
trying to smuggle drugs into the prison ? 

Mr. DoNNELL. Not on the actual narcotics. I don't know of any 
cases where we have actually had an attempt to smuggle actual nar- 
cotics into the institution. We have had over the years, possibly 
within the last 10 years, a few cases where we have run across a few 
marijuana reefers, but they have been very scarce. 

]\Ir. ]\IosER. I asked you a question which deflected you from the 
testmiony that you were giving on your statistics. Would you mind 
going back to that and resuming that testimony ? We are especially 
interested with regard to the narcotic cases among young people, as 
compared with previous years. 

Mr. DoNNELL. There have been in these recent cases, as I said, in 
the first place, some teen-age boys in connection with this, largely the 
colored people. It seems as though the colored are the ones that are 
using this marijuana, particularly, and heroin, more than the whites 
are, but we have had a few cases. 

I think that we could give you from our records statistics covering 
any and all cases, but I don't think I would like to say definitely how 
many there are, not having known exactly just how you were going 
to approach this situation, but as I told you in the beginning, I would 
be very glad to make Dr. Fitzgibbons available to you with the rec- 
ords, and you can find from the records what we have. 

But it is not a serious problem up to this point, in my opinion. 

Mr. MosER. That is, you don't think there is a serious enough in- 
crease among the younger people to be called a substantial problem? 



4 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DoNNELL. I say, from tlie picture of the penal system, I don't 
think so. I don't know what the situation is outside. 

Of course, as I see this dru^ situation, you have two problems : You 
have the addict, tlie person who is harmed from its use, and particu- 
larly if he is a youtli, he needs to be suppressed, and pi'obably needs 
treatment, and does not need it in a penal institution. Then you have 
tlie trafficker in the junk — in the narcotics — who is injuring the other 
])eopIe, and they should be deaU with and dealt witli harshly under 
proper penal treatment. 

Mr. Mosp:r. Do you think that the publicizing of information with 
regard to drugs would be good or- bad from the point of view of the 
effect on young people ? 

Mr. DoNNELL. That is quite a difficult question to answer. It has 
been publicized considerably. So far as I am concerned, personally, 
I have always been a quiet worker. I can oet underneath tilings better 
in a quiet Avay that I can by pulilicizing too much. 

Now, this problem has reached the stage at the persent time Avhere 
you may need publicizing, and you may need education of the public, 
and if this is going to reach any proi)ortions it is necessary for you to 
get the public aware of the situation to the point where they will do 
something, people who are in the better elements of society, and people 
who are in control and power, to stop this type of thing. 

The Chairman. Just in that connection, do you not feel that the 
general awareness on the part of the public is something that the ordi- 
nary person may not have dreamed to have existed, at least in such 
serious proportions, might have a very salutary effect, that it might be 
very good to have them know about it, and realize the enormity of it 
and the depravity of it ? ' 

Mr. DoNNELL. I certainly do, and, as I say, I think it is already 
being made aware of it, the public is already being made aware of it. 

Mr. MosER. It has been the policy of the Narcotics Bureau, the 
Federal Narcotics Bureau, and other organizations interested in drugs, 
lieretofore to take the position that publicizing anytliing with regard 
to narcotics tends to give the young people ideas, and make them 
curious about it, and want to try it for the thrill that they may get 
out of it. 

We would like to know Avhether, if we should publicize not the 
thrill aspect but the horror aspect of it, and the way the use of nar- 
cotics will destroy careers and lives, whether that might not have the 
effect of causing a child to understand what he is getting into. 

Mr. DoNNELL. I think there is something to be said on that side. 
I quite well remember, wlien I was in Hai'vard University years ago, 
that one of the things that we went tlirough as freshmen in that 
university was lectures in the beginning of our stay in the college on 
all of the evils of venereal diseases, and things of that sort, that might 
wreck young men, and young manliood, and I quite well recall those 
lectures were given in such a way that they instilled in the minds of 
those people not only the horrors of the future, but the horrors of the 
past, and some of those individuals would not be able to stand the 
lecture, they w^ould get up and drop down in a faint, which showed 
that it did have a very serious effect on those. 

Mr. MosER. It probably did not hurt them, though? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 5 

Mr. DoxNELL. It did not liiirt them a bit. As a matter of fact, I 
think it helped a great deal. 

I sat in on a television broadcast a short time ago in connection 
with this matter, and I said that I thought there shonld be an educa- 
tional process problem there, and that that educational process should 
be followed through the schools and churches, civic organizations, and 
things of that sort. But I think you have got to handle it not in 
dramatizing it, but in a constructive way, if you are going to get 
results with the youngsters. When you dramatize, the youngsters 
oftentimes like to take part in the dramatization. 

Mr. MosER. Can you give us any information with regard to the 
increase in narcotic cases in Federal institutions, in violation of the 
Federal law? 

Mr. DoNNEix. Their report, which recently came out, indicates that 
during the past year they had 878 violators of the Marijuana Tax Act, 
which was 25.6-percent increase. 

Mr. MosER. Increase over what ? 

Mr. DoNNELL. The number of such offenders previously. 

Mr. MosER. Yes? 

Mr. DoNxEix. And the commitments, they had an increase of 43.2 
percent, represented, by 1,151 commitments for offenses involving 
narcotic drugs. 

Mr. MosER. Those are very high percentages of increase, aren't they ? 

Mr. DoNNELL. Yes; they are. But I think you have to take into 
consideration that the Federal Bureau of Prisons received people 
from all over the country, and particularly with institutions for drug 
addicts, they naturally would get that overflow that exists throughout 
the country. 

I noted tluit they gave a list by States, in which Maryland provided 
19 to tlie Federal institutions, and was seventeenth in the list of 
States that contributed narcoics to the Federal prison system, treat- 
ment system, and the greatest State in numbers committed to those 
institutions came from the State of Texas, with 407 ; New York second, 
with 211 : California was very high and Ohio was pretty high, and we 
were in the lower group, but we were seventeenth among the States, 
so far as Maryland was concerned. 

I presiune those were people gathered up by the narcotics agencies 
dealing with trafficking in narcotics. 

Mr. MosER. I notice that Texas is first with 407. I suppose that is 
probably largely marijuana cases? Do you suppose that is true? 

Mr. DoxNELL. I fhink marijuana is used extensively in Texas, and, 
of course, Texas is near to Mexico. 

Mr. MosER. Is that the principal source of marijuana ? 

Mr. DoxxELL. I can't say whetJier it is the principal source, but I 
think it is one of the sources. 

Mr. MosER. Have you observed that there is an increase especially 
among the Negro groups? I observed that the Federal report indi- 
cates there has been an increase in that particular class. 

Mr. DoxNEix. I think that the greater portion of our increase in 
Maryland is with the Negroes. 

Mr. MosER. Is that in marijuana or the other drugs, or both? 



6 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DoNNELi.. I think marijuana and heroin have been getting a 
pretty close race, they have been going pretty much together, 
apparently. 

Mr. MosER. I have examined the records of some of the men we 
intend to call as witnesses today, and I have observed in the Negro 
groups, in almost every case, that the man has come from a broken 
family, or a poverty-stricken family, and has given up school at an 
early age, and at some stage has taken up drugs. 

I am wondering if you would want to express a view as to whether 
you think the reason Negroes go into it is because of their economic 
conditions being so distressing. 

Mr. DoNNELL. Well, I think all crime depends to a certain degree 
on that. You don't get criminal tendencies in boys and girls under 
proper home control, and where you don't have proper home control 
you are much more apt to have that boy or girl get into things that 
will cause them to get into difficulties. 

Mr. MosER. I observed in a couple of cases involving white prisoners 
that they were people who were naturally psychologically weak, nerv- 
ous, or psychopathic some way, whereas the same did not seem to be 
true of the Negro prisoners. 

Mr. DoNNELL. Of course, you use a different yardstick in measuring 
the mental condition of the Negro and the white, anyhow, because of 
his environment ; you get a differential if you are dealing with IQ's, 
which they don't count so much any more. You get one IQ for a Negro, 
and if you had the same IQ for a white man, it would mean two differ- 
ent things. 

We are taking that into consideration in the State of Maryland 
today. 

You have had for the last several years a great change in the type of 
inmates which have come into our penal institutions, and I think that 
is quite true over the country as well as in Maryland. 

ifou have got two groups, you have got a fairly high grade psycho- 
pathic group and a dangerous gi'oup, because the higher the mentality 
with emotional instability, the more apt you are to get into serious 
kinds of trouble, and then you have got the so-called derelict, the defec- 
tive, what we call in prison terms a defective delinquent, who may not 
be a very serious offender but he may be a continuing offender. You 
just have him come into your institution, and he goes out and comes 
right back in again for a minor crime, and we have reached the point 
in the State of Maryland where we believe it is essential to build a new 
institution where we can take care of that type of individual and not 
let him go out into society unless we are fairly sure he is going out 
cured. 

In other words, he will come in there for treatment over the balance 
of his life, either to be in the institution or under proper control, and 
the psychopathic will be dealt with somewhat the same. 

Now, there are various degrees of psychopaths. We may have some 
in this room, I haven't looked them over, but I know that you could 
not walk down the street in Baltimore without passing more of them. 
The dangerous psychopaths and sexual psychopaths and criminal 
psychopaths are the ones who are dangerous to society, and that is the 
recidivist who is keeping our prisons so filled up. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 7 

I think you might like some figures that Dr. Fitzgibbons has worked 
out, if you want more than the narcotic angle, as to the situation in 
Maryland from 1930 to 1950. 

I might say in the beginning that I had the good fortune to come 
into the prison system of the State of Maryland at the time that 
Senator O'Conor, afterward Governor O'Conor, was State's attorney 
of Baltimore City. At that particular time we had swift treatment of 
the individual, and sure punishment of the criminal. I think Senator 
O'Conor eliminated most of the gangster element from Maryland, and 
we have not had in the prison system of the State of Maryland many 
of the gangster type in the last 20 years. 

We occasionally have one who comes in from the outside, but most 
of our criminals in this State are the offenders, I would not call them 
accidental offenders, we do get some of them, but they are the offenders 
that get into repeated minor offenses for the most part. Occasionally 
we, of course, get a stick-up. I think they had one up here in Balti- 
more yesterday. But they are not the big type of gangster that you 
find in so many other places. 

On different occasions in years past there have been connections 
with Chicago gangsters, New York and Philadelphia people, and 
we have gotten a few of them, but we have been quite free from that 
type of thing in Maryland, and I give a good deal of that credit to 
Senator O'Conor when he was State's attorney. I am not saying 
that because he happens to be chairman of this committee. I have 
said it before. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think that the syndicated gamblers that we 
have found to exist through the result of the investigation of this 
committee may very well be getting a take from bookies and people 
like that through wire service ? 

Mr. DoNNELL. That may be so, but if they are I believe they them- 
selves are giving Maryland a fairly wide berth. I don't think they 
have any desire to be punished in Maryland. That is my impression. 

The Chairman. Just in that general connection, we are getting 
away from some of these things, but because you have mentioned it, 
it might be very important to have it for the benefit of all members of 
the committee, and the staff, and the record. 

From your day-in and day-out contact with the inmates of various 
instftutions here and in the Maryland Penitentiary and, of course, 
at Washington County, and elsewhere, do you feel that there are inter- 
relationships or connections between the gangs from other cities, or 
whether or not in developing a case of major proportions in hold-ups 
and robberies or otherwise, that it is shown that they come from those 
cities and are apparently working with some people in Maryland? 

Mr. DoNNELL. Senator O'Couor, in the last few years, because 
of the over-all situation, I have not had the contact with the inmates 
that I had over a period of many years, but my impression would be 
that while we have in the State of Maryland about 50 percent of our 
population foreign to the State of Maryland, they are not representa- 
tive of the gangster type of criminal. Occasionally they have a con- 
nection, but it is a rather weak connection, in my opinion. 

Now, of course, we have had some, we had some during the time you 
were State's attorney, who were hooked up with some of the Chicago 
gangs, and at that time, too, we had one or two gangs develop here in 



8 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Maryland, but they were taken care of. With them there were a few 
leaders, and the rest of them were weaklings, naturally. But, for the 
most part, of those that have come into this State and have been con- 
victed in this State, they are the mediocre type of criminal, they are 
not the gangster-type criminal. 

Mr. MosER. Apparently the big-time gangsters never go to jail, but 
the underlings do ? The underlings are probably taken care of when 
they get out. 

Mr. DoNNELL. Occasionally they catch up with one of the others 
and, as I said before, I think they would rather be caught up with 
any place else rather than in the State of Maryland. 

We have had pretty sure justice in Maryland, and while we are fair 
in our treatment of criminals, I can assure you that we do not molly- 
coddle criminals in this State. 

The Chairman. On the question of drug addiction, from your 
observations and knowledge of it, and going to the point of dis- 
tribution and trafficking in it, is there any help that you could give 
us in regard to the distribution, whether or not there may be some 
protection or some improper influences exerted, in order to make 
possible the wide distribution of narcotics ? 

Mr. DoNNELL. Senator O'Conor, I don't think I am in a position 
to answer that question intelligently. I have all I can do to take 
care of the individual after he comes into the penal system, and I 
never have been an individual that has tried to criticize law-enforce- 
ment agencies, or the police departments of our cities. I left that 
to my good friend Jim Hepbron, on the criminal justice commission, 
and I think they are much more able to answer that question intelli- 
gently than I. 

I would not ssij that if there is any of that that it is widespread 
at all, from my observation within the institution. 

The Chairman. I just wondered whether from the nuirmurings or 
the reports that might be current after the men get in the institution, 
whether without having first-hand knowledge of it you might be of 
any help to our committee in suggesting any possible leads. 

Mr. DoNNELL. I think you will get your best leads, as I say, from 
the records and from talking with the inmates themselves. 

I do also think tl\at oftentimes you have to be guided in what 
you take from an inmate in an institution, who will make an alibi by 
charging somebody on the outside with something which he himself 
was responsible for, and which was responsible for bringing him in. 

Mr. Moser. Can you tell us anything about the number of peddlers 
who are addicts themselves, what proportion of the peddlers are 
addicts? 

Mr. Donnell. You mean in this group we have got here? 

Mr. Moser. Yes. 

Mr. Donnell. My information is, as I told you yesterday, from 
the women's institution where we have li of the women, that the 
greater portion of them are in the trafficking group. Now, I would 
say that probably in this institution, I would think that it would be 
the other way around, the majority would be in the addict group, 
but I may be wrong, and Dr. E'itzgibbons can give you that informa- 
tion much better than I can. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 9 

Mr. MosER. Do you have any tliou^rhts as to why tliere is a difference 
between the males and females in that regard? 

Mr. DoNNELL. No; I don't know that I can. I think most of those 
females are Negroes, and they may be working for some males in the 
trafficking end of it. The law^ is usually easier with the female than 
with the male, and that may be one reason for it. 

j\Ir. MosER. That would mean, if the law is easier, that there would 
be less of a tendency 

Mr. DoxxELL. I mean, the prosecution usually, not only in Mary- 
land, but elsew^here, the courts are more lenient. 

Mr. MosER. They would be tougher on the peddlers among women 
than they would on ordinary addicts or possessors^ 

Mr. DoxNELL. I think over the years there might be a feeling, we 
will say, if a male and a female were linked up on that type of thing, 
that the feeling might be that the woman would get off easier than 
the man, if they were caught trafficking in drugs, and consequently 
they may catch the trafficker in the female and put them in the women's 
institution, whereas the male keeps out of sight, even if he is trafficking 
in it. 

Mr. MosER. I don't think I understand. What we are wondering 
now about is why among the women who are in here, who are in an 
institution for violation of the Narcotics Act, that the bigger percent- 
age of them are nonaddicts. 

Mr. DoxxELL. The larger percentage of them are traffickers, I mean. 

Mr. MosER. I see. I am interested in the number who are not 
addicted. 

Mr. Doxx'ELL. That was the number I was talking about. 

Mr. MosER. Among the women a larger percentage are nonaddicts 
and they traffic in the drug, they dispose of it? 

Mr. DoxxELL. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. Whereas the men who are traffickers are more likely 
to become addicts ? 

Mr. DoxxELL. It looks that way. 

Mr. MosER. I wonder why ? I guess there is no answer as to why, 

Mr. DoxxELL. I do not have the answer, not at the present time. 
1 think that you might look to see the over-all picture, so far as this 
State is concerned, with these statistics that I worked out yesterchiy, 
to see how the trend has changed in the last 20 years. 

Mr. MosER. Would you like to give us those statistics? 

Mr. DoxxELL. I would like to put them in the record here as I have 
got them in various forms. 

In 1930 we had 2.725 commitments. In 1930 we had two institu- 
tions in the State of Maryland known as the Maryland Penitentiary 
and the Maryland House of Correction. That particular year we 
had connnitments of 2,725 inmates. 

In 1940 — I take these in 10-year periods — we also had two institu- 
tions, the same two, and we had 2,884 inmates committed to the penal 
institutions. 

In 1950, with four institutions, two reformatories having been 
added, we had 3,173 commitments to the institutions. 

Now, the population of Maryland in 1930 was 1,631,526; in 1910 
it was 1,821,244 ; and in 1950 it was 2,324,243, so that your commit- 
ments have not grown out of proportion to your increase in popula- 



10 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

tion which increase lasted during" the war and which increase con- 
stituted in some part a ratlier weak element that came in here at that 
time and stayed here, particularly coming from the south of us. 

They were not the most desirable citizens that came in. 

Here is another thing that I think will be interesting to you. In 
1930 we had 1,507 commitments of 6 months or less ; in 1910 we had 
1,597 with 6 months or less; and in 1950 we had only 885 with 6 
months or less. So that shows why our population has kept up and 
why we have 4,015 prisoners today as against 2,366 back in 1930. 

Now, there has been an increase probably from 18 years down in 
commitments. Many of the boys are the type I used to handle at the 
training school and they now come into prisons from 16 to 18 years 
of age, and we even get some below 16 years of age. 

So I wanted to give you that so that it might account for some- 
thing in regard to the changes in population over that period of time. 
I think that is all that you will need to have on that particular score. 

I might say this, so far as the house of correction is concerned, we 
are running an institution that takes care of various types of individ- 
uals which is different than it is in some States, like in Massachusetts, 
for instance, with their Bridgewater institution there, they take care 
of one type of inmate there, the derelict and they are not listed in penal 
treatment cases. We list everything in the State of Maryland under 
our penal groups, and in this particular instance, for the last few 
years, we have been getting about 25 percent of our population as 
domestic relations cases coming down from Baltimore City, and the 
court has held jurisdiction over those cases and we get another 50 
percent below a year's sentence which are not parolable material for 
the most part, so you only have about 25 percent of the population of 
the Maryland House of Correction which has our largest intake of 
people that you can do much with when it comes to parole. 

We have anywhere from 2,200 to 2,700 come into this institution — 
it has been running a little less in the last few years and, of course, 
the penitentiary takes the maximum security type of prisoner and 
the reformatory for males is for the youthful offenders, and at the 
present time about 80 percent, I would say, of the population of the 
Maryland Reformatory for Males is a population of youthful offenders 
below 21 years of age. 

Mr. MosER. All right. Then may we have that schedule as an 
exhibit for the record ? 

Mr. DoNNELL. I have other things on there that I don't know, I am 
sure they would need interpretation. 

The Chairman. Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

The Chairman. Back on the record. 

Mr. DoNNELL. I don't know whether I have been of very much help 
to you or not. 

Mr. MosER. We wanted to get the general picture and you have done 
very well, sir. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Let us call our first witness. This man's name is 
Woodrow Brown and is sometimes called Buster Brown. 

(At this point Woodrow Brown entered the room.) 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 11 

The Chairman. I am Senator O'Conor, Woodrow. I just wanted 
to talk with you for a while and we are in all cases having the witnesses 
sworn. You don't object to that, do you ? 

The Witness. Well, if its concerning myself, I don't, sir. I don't 
mind anything that you gentlemen have to say if it is concerning my- 
self, but if it is on someone else, therefore, I could not. 

The Chairman. We understand. 

In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear the testimony 
you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth ? 

The Witness. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MR. , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. Just sit down and make yourself comfortable. 

Your name is ^ 

The Witness. , yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Where do you live, Woodrow ? 

The Witness. 1001 Whittier Street, Baltimore, Ud. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived in Baltimore? 

The Witness. All my life, sir. 

The Chairman. And have you lived up on Whittier Street for very 
long ? 

The Witness. I would say about If) years. 

The Chairman. And what do you do for a living? 

The Witness. Well, I am an entertainer, a musician. 

The Chairman. What do you play ? 

The Witness. Guitar and vibraphone, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you take any training for that ? 

The Witness. Well, not from the beginning, but over a period of 
years I did ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Wliere did you study ? 

The Witness. I studied in New York City, 802 is the union. 

The Chairman. And how long have you. been doing professional 
Avork in music? 

The Witness. I would say since about 1932. 

The Chairman. With some of the big name bands ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Just so that we make ourselves plain to you, we 
don't want to embarrass you in any way. We are not here to do you 
any harm or to make any case against you or anything of that kind, 
so you can be perfectly free on that basis. 

We are not here with that in mind at all, but just to talk.to you. 

This is Mr. Moser, our chief counsel. 

The Witness. Hello, Mr. Moser. 

The Chairman. And he will want to ask you some questions, so 
that you can be perfectly free with us. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You are called "Buster'' ? 

The Witness. "Buster" is my nickname ; yes. 

Mr. Moser. Buster, Senator O'Conor explained to you that this is 
a Senate investigating committee. We are not out to send anybody to 



12 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

jail or to cause you any trouble, but we are trying to find out the reason 
why a lot of things happen, to see if we can find out how to correct 
them 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. We are particularly interested in trying to figure out a 
way of keeping young people from becoming drug addicts and I think 
you will agree with me that you would like to do that. 

The Witness. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. MosER. And the reason we are talking to you is because we 
think probably you know what causes a condition from your own ex- 
perience, and perhaps you can help us find out what the solution is. 

So we will ask you questions, just as though you were being investi- 
gated, but you don't have to answer any question that would hurt you 
or get anybody else in trouble. We just want you to give us help and 
information, as much of it as you can. 

The Witness. All right, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Now, do you want to tell me a little something about 
your family when you were a kid? 

The Witness. Well, my family, they weren't too wealthy. 

Mr. MosER, Were they quite poor ? 

The Witness. No; they wasn't that, either. I should not say that, 
but so far as my being addicted to drugs, that didn't have anything 
to do with it, because I was gave everything, so far as a colored kid 
could have. 

My father and my mother — my father is dead now — but all that 
has nothing to do, it doesn't have anything to do with my becoming an 
addict. 

Mr. MosER. How many brothers and sisters did 3^ou have? 

The Witness. There was three of us, no sisters. She adopted a girl. 

Mr. MosER. Your mother adopted a girl ? 

The Witness. She adopted a girl, and raised a girl. 

Mr. MosER. I see. Now, you were working as a musician for quite 
a number of years ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Would you like to tell us the details of how you hap- 
pened to become an addict, how you got started, and what caused it? 

The Witness. Well, I think from the beginning it was from 
curiosity. 

Mr. MosER. Curiosity? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MoSER. You thought you would get a kick out of it? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. I had seen other people indulging, and some 
of my so-called friends would always tell me, "Don't use it.'' I think 
that is a very bad statement to make to one who is unaware of the 
dangers, and so b> them continuously telling me "Don't use it" I 
wanted to know why. 

Mr. MosER. When they told you not to use it, it made you curious? 

The Witness. It made me more curious ; yes. 

Mr. ISIosER. When was that? 

The Witness. A little before social-security time — I would say about 
1935, because, if I am not wrong, 1936 was social-security time. 

Mr. Moser. Yes. How old were you then ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 13 

The AViTNESS. Well, I was about 22, if I am not mistaken. I am 41 
now, and I am so confused I cannot tell you, to be exact. 

Mr. MosER. You are 41 now, so that was about 18 years ago. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. I started school at Douglas High School. 

Mr. MosER. So you were about 22 or 23 years old? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Did the other boys that you played around with use 
narcotics? 

The Witness. No, sir; they didn't. I imagine they was too strong- 
minded. One of them came back to Baltimore after G years of my 
beginning on drugs; he came back, l)ut they all did smoke reefers. 

Mr. IVIosER. They did smoke reefers i 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You started with reefers, too, did you ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You started on reefers before you were 22 or 23 ? 

The Witness. I started on reefers when I w\as in Douglas High. 

Mr. Moser. When you were 17 or 18? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. There was quite a few of them around was 
using it. It is not a good thing to say, but at the time you could ask an 
officer for a match and he would give you a match, because he was 
unaware of what was happening. He did not know it was that and 
reefers at that time was two for 25 cents. 

Mr. Moser. Two for what ? 

The Witness. Two of them for a quarter. 

Mr. Moser. Now how much are they ? 

The Witness. A dollar for one. 

Mr. Moser. The inflation hit them too ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Well, now, you used reefers quite a good deal. How 
often did you use a i-eef er ? How many would you smoke a week ? 

The Witness. I couldn't say about a week, but you could smoke one 
every 2 or 3 hours. 

Mr. Moser. You. would smoke that many of them? 

The Witness. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Moser. You would smoke them in place of ordinary cigarettes? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. What did they do for you? 

The Witness. They would stimulate you, as anything does for 
people who are not addicts, I mean like so far as wdiisky would. 

Mr. MosER. It makes you sort of drunk ? 

The Witness. No; it wouldn't make you drunk or disorderly. It 
would just make you feel indifferent. 

Mr. MosER. And excited? 

The Witness. Your mouth would be dry. At least, I didn't commit 
any crimes. Every time I have been arrested it was for the same 
thing, drugs. 

Mr. Moser. And it just gave you a sort of thrilling feeling; is 
that it ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir; something different. 

Mr. Moser. Did some of the other fellows you knew who used reefers 
get excited? 

S52T7— 51— pt. 14 2 



14 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Not as I know it; I have never know them to com- 
mit a crime, but of course I have heard different, stories about drug 
addicts committing those liorrible crimes, such as rape and murders 
and so forth, and I definitely don't know anyone who did such. 

Mr. MosER. You don't think reefers caused that ? 

The Witness. No, sir ; I definitely don't believe it. 

Mr. MosER. You went to Douglas High School in Baltimore? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. How many boys of your age do you think were using 
reefers ? 

The Witness. I would say about, well, it was over a hundred. 

Mr. MosER. Over a hundred? 

The Witness. Yes, sir, as I know of. I was in northwest part, so I 
couldn't say about the other. 

Mr. MosER. That was back in 1936 ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Do you know many of them now? Do you know 
whether they have switched over to drugs ^ 

The Witness. Quite a few of them has, and there is a lot of them has 
went away, strayed away from Baltimore, and I imagine they are 
still using them. 

Mr. MosER, You think they are still using them? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Now, when you were about 23 or 24 you said you 
switched over to drugs. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. How did you start? Did you do it by sniffing? 

The Witness. Yes, sir; that was the first step. 

Mr. MosER. Did somebody give it to you or did you have to buy it ? 

The Witness. They would give it to you the first couple of times. 

Mr. MosER. You mean the peddlers would ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. That was, in order to make you a customer, they would 
give it to you ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir, until you get the habit. 

Mr. MosER. And they would give it to you to sniff? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And teach you how to use it ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. How did you first run across this peddler? Did he look 
you up? 

The Witness. No ; they have an idea that the majority of entertain- 
ers and people that frequent races and so forth, and poolrooms and 
places like that, they feel as though they are more weak to it than the 
average person — peoj^le that are considered to be slick, as some people 
also call them. 

Mr. MosER. So they go looking for customers ? 

The Witness. So they go into a neighborhood looking for someone 
else with no such name and then one word leads to another, and so 
forth and so on. 

Mr. MosER. You say they would come in and ask for a fake name 
and then get in a conversation with you ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 15 

Mr. MosER. And they gradually get to the point of suggesting that 
you try a sniff ; is that right ? 

The "Witness. That is right ; yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Now, after yon had one sniff, I suppose you got some 
kind of kick out of that ; didn't you ? 

The Witness. Well, maybe, but to my experience I disliked it, be- 
cause it was awfully bitter and I never cared for nothing real bitter, 
you know, so far as the taste. 

Mr. MosER. You did not get a sensation out of it ? 

The Witness. No, sir ; not from that. 

Mr. MosER. You didn't like the taste? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER, Did you get a sensation from it? 

The Witness. Well, the taste made me sick like, and then, when I 
told him that, he explained to me that there was other ways of doing 
it. That was a week or so later. 

Mr. MosER. How many times did you sniff it? 

The Witness. Only once, 

Mr. MosER. Then he told you it would be easier to take it with a 
needle? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. He showed you how to do it with a needle ? 

The Witness. In the muscles. 

Mr. MosER. Skin shots ? 

The Witness. Just skin shots. 

ISIr. MosER. Did he do it for you ? 

The Witness. Yes ; for the beginning. 

Mr. MosER. He gave you the skin shots ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Wliy did you let him do that; do you remember? 

The Witness. As I said before, I was curious. People had been 
telling me, "Don't use it," and so forth ; and it seems, as though things 
nowadays stand, that it is hard to get. 

Mr. MosER. It is hard to get? 

The Witness. Yes; more people go to it. I am just drawing a 
parallel. During the depression I remember the time when meat and 
things were hard to get and people used to get it and hoard it. 

Mr. MosER. You mean the harder it was to get the more they 
wanted it ? 

The Witness. Yes ; the same as cigarettes. 

Mr. MosER. When you had your skin shots, did you get quite a kick 
out of it ? 

The Witness. I did ; yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you like it? 

The Witness. Well, it was something different. 

Mr. MosER. You got a thrill out of it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

]Mr. MosER. Then how did you happen to take the next one ? 

The Witness. Well, the next one, I felt as though I should take that, 
and it would make me feel like I did the day I took the first one, 
and I did. 

Mr. INIosER. How long afterward was the second shot? 

The Witness. About 2 days later. 



16 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE ' 

Mr. MosER. Two days ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. It was fun; so you wanted to try it again? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. He gave you that shot, too ? 

Tlie Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Then when was the next one — how frequently did you- 
have them then ? 

The Witness. Well, I can't remember right at present ; I can't right 
at present say how often I did it tlien, until about 2 weelcs after, and 
then I woke up feeling bad, as though I had the rheumatism in my 
bones and joints, you know. They was aching; so then I asked him, 
so he says, "Well, you got the habit." He said, "I think you needs 
the stuff?' 

So, w4ien I taken it, I found out as soon as I taken it a few minutes 
later I felt different, and from then on that was it. 

Mr. MosER. From then on you had to take it every day? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; every day. And then during the course of 
time the days would dwindle down to hours. 

Mr. MosER. You got so that you needed more and more ? 

The Witness. More and more. 

Mr. MosER. Because you would feel sick ? 

The AViTNESs. Yes, sir; I felt as though that I couldn't eat without 
having it, and I tried it later, which I couldn't eat without having it 
because nothing would stay on my stomach. 

Mr. MosER. Well, then, you were not taking it for the thrill then ; 
were you ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. You were taking it 

The Witness. It was medicine, like that, sir, the thrill had worn off. 

Mr. MosER. And you knew it had you ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Do you wish you didn't have it? 

The Witness. Naturally ; yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. But you didn't know how to get out of it ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think if at the start you had known it would get 
you like that, and you couldn't get out of it, do you think you would 
have started ? 

The Witness. Oh, no, sir ; definitely, I would not. 

Mr. INIosER. Now, how much were you taking at the time then when 
you were hooked ? 

The Wn^NESs. I w^as taking at least twice a day. 

Mr. MosER. Twice a day? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

JNIr. MosER. And how much ? « 

Tlie Witness. I don't know\ 

Mr. MosER. You don't know how much ; you mean you would just 
take a shot ? 

The Witness. They was considered as "decks" then, like headache 
powders come in, you know, folded in a piece of paper; and it was 
considered as "decks." It was 75 cents. 

Mr. Moser. Seventy-five cents for a deck ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 17 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And you did that twice a day? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MoSER. That was a dolhir and a half a day? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And that wouhl be $10.50 a week? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. That was when you were hooked. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Did you use a needle ? 

The Witness. A needle and an eyedropper. 

Mr. Moser. And by that time you were doing it yourself ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Tell me at what age you started to put it in the vein. 

The Witness. That was around, I remember, when they had the 
Narcotics Act come out; I think it was in 1939, and they made an 
arrest there and sent 10 or 13 fellows to Lexington. 

Mr. Moser. Were you one of those ? 

The Witness. No. I was arrested. They was sending them for 
sale, and I never sold it. 

Mr. Moser. You were using it in the main line then? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ]Moser. So, it was 3 years before you started using it in the 
main line? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You took skin shots for 3 years ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Why did you switch to the main line ? 

The Witness. Because it didn't cost as much ; it would take as much. 

Mr. Moser. I see ; so you could have it of teiier, and it wouldn't cost 
you any more. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Did you keep on dealing with the same peddler, or did 
you change ? 

The Witness. No; I change. 

Mr. Moser. Did you change because you moved around or because 
you wanted to try another peddler ? 

The Witness. Well, each peddler has different sales talk and he 
gives you, maybe if you don't have the money, he will trust you, you 
know, and it is just the same as anything else in selling. 

Mr. Moser. You go to the fellow you think will give you the best 
service ? 

The Witness. Yes ; give it to you when you doesn't have the money, 
or sometimes he would give you something for nothing. That is con- 
sidered as a present, showing his friendship by you being a good 
customer. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever get to the point where you sold it your- 
self to get money ? 

The Witness. No, sir : I never have, because I write music and so 
forth, and during that time I have known that the sellers would get 
more people, and then again the sellers would be responsible for the 
users. A lot of people figured as though the sellers were the ones that 
were to blame for the users, causing people to use it. 



18 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. That is true; isn't it? 

The Witness. I wouldn't just say that. 

Mr. MosER. That is how you started. 

The Witness. Like I said, I was inquisitive. If I had known from 
the beginning how dreadful it was, no one could have enticed me to 
use it, not even the seller. But the sellers' was the one who had it at all 
times and not the users. I am not taking up for the users or sellers, 
because it definitely isn't no good. 

Mr. Moser. You see, I have the impression that some people, when 
they needed it and didn't have enough money for it, that the peddler 
would get them to sell some to others and then split the profit with him, 
and thereby make them peddlers. 

The Witness. The peddler does that because he is afraid of going on 
the street himself. He is being afraid; he is afraid of being in- 
carcerated or arrested. 

Mr. Moser. So, he gets somebody else to do the selling? 

The Witness. To do the dirty work ; yes. 

Mr. Moser. He gets the customers to do the dirty work ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; because he is getting something for nothing ; 
it wouldn't cost him nothing, and he wouldn't be taking chances if 
he thought that the fellow that was selling it for him wouldn't mention 
his name, and when the time came for the fall, that is the idea of 
that, I least I think it is. 

Mr. Moser. Now, you had no criminal record before you started 
taking drugs ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And then afterward you did have one ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. I have here a list of the things you have been arrested 
for and convicted for, and I am not criticizing you for any of them, 
but I do want to find out, if I can, to what extent they were caused 
by the fact tliat you had become an addict and perhaps you can tell 
us about that. 

Now back in 1939 you mentioned the arrest, you were arrested on 
a narcotics charge, but you were released by the United States com- 
missioner, according to this record. That is about right, isn't it? 

The Witness. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Moser. Then in 1940, in July, you were arrested for an 
autotheft? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; but that was the 

Mr. Moser. The case was dismissed ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; because the fellow that the car belonged to 
he loaned it to another fellow. 

Mr. Moser. Buster, I don't care whether you actually stole it or not. 

The Witness. No; but I didn't. He reported the car as being stolen 
because the fellow didn't bring the car back. 

Mr. Moser. That had nothing to do with drugs ? 

The W^itness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. All right. Then in 1941 you were arrested for a 
violation of the Narcotics Drug Act and given 6 months ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Was that for possession ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 19 

Mr. MosER. How did they happen to catch you, when they were 
raiding the place, or what ? 

The Witness. No, sir. I think, because I think I was in a fellow's 
liouse, which was an apartment house, and he was in the bathroom 
and the lady wanted to get in the bathroom and she had been com- 
plaining to this fellow's family about him going in there. Someone 
had told her about it, and it is just one of those things. 

Mr. MosER. You mean the wife had been complaining about the 
husband going to get it ? 

The Witness. No ; the other family. It was an apartment house, 
and in an apartment house more than one person uses the bathroom. 

Mr. Moser. I see. And you were giving yourself shots there, were 
you ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And you got caught ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Now, in 1943, in March, you were also arrested for 
violation of the Drug and Narcotics Act, the same type of circum- 
stance ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And in 1944 you were arrested again and were re- 
leased ? You were just caught using it ? 

The Witness, Yes. 

Mr. MosER, Then in 1944 you were arrested for larceny of an auto- 
mobile and found not guilty ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Was that in any way related to the fact that you had 
been taking drugs? 

The Witness. No, sir ; it was about the same reason as about the 
car before, the car belonged to a fellow and he reported it stolen. 

Mr. Moser. In 1946 you were caught using drugs again? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. But never as a peddler ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. In 1949, larceny, and you were sentenced to 30 days 
in the Baltimore City jail on a charge of shoplifting. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

JMr. Moser. Was that related to drugs? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Yon were not stealing anything because you needed 
money to buy drugs? 

The Witness. No, sir. It was only two dresses that I bought for 
money, and therefore I did 30 days for it, and had to go to Kentucky, 
in 1946 I went to Kentucky. 

Mr. Moser. You mean you bought stolen goods ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You were receiving stolen goods ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. That was not because you were an addict, and it had 
nothing to do with it? 

The Witness. Oh, I was an addict • 

Mr. Moser. But this did not cause you to do that ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 



20 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. In 1950, last year, September, you were a State wit- 
ness, what was that ? Did you testify for the State ? 

The Witness. I testified for the State about a fellow that was work- 
ing down on Eutaw Street. 

Mr. MosER. He was an addict? 

The Witness. There was an addict involved in it. 

Mr. MosER. And you were testifying 

The Witness. For the State, as to what happened. They wanted 
me to tell. 

Mr. MosER. In November of last year the charge was shoplifting. 
Was that in any way related to narcotics ? 

The Witness. I don't remember that. 

Mr. MosER. You don't remember ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. In November of last year? Well, all right, then. Jan- 
uary of this year you were arrested for 

The Witness. Narcotics. 

Mr. MosER. But that was for possession ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And you were given 2 years which you are now serving. 

The Witness. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Moser. When they put you in jail, of course, you could not 
get the drugs any more, could you ? 

The Witness. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Have you ever been able to get any in jail ? 

The Witness. Through Dr. White, while I was in the city jail. 

Mr. Moser. The jail doctor administered some? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. What did he do that for, to ease you off ? 

The Witness. He did that because I was having 

Mr. Moser. Some withdrawal symptoms ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir; and couldn't eat, and so forth. 

Mr. Moser. So he gave you a little to ease that ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; so I could sleep at nights. 

Mr. Moser. Did he finally taper it off ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. So now you don't get any ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. It is pretty painful going through the withdrawal 
period. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. You get sick to your stomach ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. What else happens? 

The Witness. As I said before, you feel as though you have the 
rheumatism. 

Mr. Moser. You ache all over ? 

The Witness. You ache all over, and your head hurts. 

Mr. Moser. And you have a dry mouth ? 

The Witness. Yes ; and symptoms from the eyes, watering nose, like 
you have a cold. 

Mr. Moser. How long does it last ? 

The Witness. Until, I would say, about 5 or 6 days. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 21 

Mr. MosER. As long as that? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; sometimes you get the fever from it. 

Mr. MosER. And thfen you began to get back to normal again. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Now, when you get so that at the present time you are 
perfectly normal; are you? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And you can eat regularly ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. You feel better ? 

The Witness. Yes. I sleep and work. 

Mr. MosER. And when you get out of here you are going to be 
faced again with the problem sometime? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. And how is it going to come up ; do you think ? 

The Witness. Well, I don't know. I couldn't say. 

Mr. MosER. You mean you may be just tempted to do it again? 

The Witness. I may, and then again I may not. 

Mr. Moser. You won't do it for the thrill of it this tinie? 

The Witness. Well, from the beginning, actually what it is, it is the 
thrill. 

Mr. Moser. Now, you are oflf and you feel normal ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. But when you get out of here some peddler will come 
to you and try to sell you dope, then what are you going to do? 

The Witness. I couldn't just say. really, at the present I don't have 
any intentions on doing so. 

Mr. Moser. But you know you should not have started it, and I am 
wondering M'hy you would start again. 

The Witness. " I imagine because I know what it is, I am aware of it 
and how it would make me feel, and so forth. It just according to 
how plentiful it is. 

Mr. Moser. If you feel low sometime you may take it? 

The Witness. That may cause it. 

Mr. Moser. And then you will be on, even though you know you will 
be hooked again? 

The Witness. That is right, 

Mr. Moser. You might start in, even though you know you will get 
hooked ? 

The Witness. That is right. I started that way, each time I was 
convicted and released, it seemed as though there was something 
missing, something that I was a part of, or something a part of me, 
and I felt as though I had to have it. 

Mr. Moser. Yon feel as though you are hooked for life even now? 

The Witness. Well, no. It is about time that I should really give it 
up, because I am a little too old for it, and I never had a decent break, 
and I think that is the case of my not having it. 

The Chairman. Buster, how much did it cost you at the top, when 
you had the habit to the greatest extent, how much would it cost you 
a week? 

The Witness. Every nickel I could get. Sometimes I would earn, 
I was working in the Flamingo Club, and got $95, and I was writing 
}uusic for different organizations, from which I M^ould acquire per- 



22 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

haps maybe a hundred dollars, and it would cost $175 to $200, as much 
as 1 could get. 

The Chairman. A week ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. You were getting $100 for writing music and $95 
for playing ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you were putting almost $175 out ? 

The Witness. That is the way it goes, as much as you can get. That 
is the way the addict does. 

Mr. MosER. You mean the peddlers ? 

The Witness. No ; the addicts, as much money as they have, the more 
they have, the more they spend. That is why every one you see is 
untidy. 

Mr. MosER. But then you only had $20 a week to live on. 

The Witness. A lot of my living expenses would be behind, if I 
wasn't with my mother and father. 

Mr. MosER. Then you would owe money ? 

The Witness. Then I would owe. 

Mr. MosER. To the peddlers ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, was that true of others, would you say that 
the others would do it the same way, spend about everything they 
would get ? 

The Witness. Everything they could get. 

The Chairman. Without giving any names, from your knowledge 
of what the other fellows were doing, would you say that they would 
be behind in their room rent and their living expenses? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; they had to. 

The Chairman. Well, now, in many cases, again without giving 
any names, did you know of any cases where when they were behind 
and in debt they went out to steal or to get money in other ways? 

The Witness. Oh, maybe they perhaps steal, as you say, and per- 
haps some of them that doesn't have the nerve to steal would take to 
selling. J 

The Chairman. Selling? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. AVliat I was wondering was whether or not they 
needed the money and they were in the red, in debt, whether they 
then turned to 

The Witness. To stealing? 

The Chairman (continuing). Stealing or violating the law in one 
way or the other. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Even in the way of selling, as you described it. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. But, do you know where the stuff comes from, what 
•city it comes from ? 

The Witness. It comes from the larger cities. 

Mr. MosER. From the bigger cities ? 

The Witness. Yes ; I definitely know that. 

Mr. Moser. Do you think it comes from Washington, at all ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 23 

The Witness. It comes from Washinoton; Baltimore is close to 
Washington, and the people that don't have the money, they go to 
Washington, because it is cheaper in Washington. 

Mr. MosER. It is cheaper there than here ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Why is that ? 

The Witness. Sir? 

Mr. MosER. AYhy is that ? ^^^ly is it cheaper ? 

The Witness. Because there is more there, and the people there, it 
seems as though it is a clique, or something. I have been sitting in 
the house, and officers have come in and seen addicts around, and 
never made an arrest. But in Baltimore it is different. 

Mr. MosER. Well, they enforce it stronger in Baltimore? 

The Witness. It is more of a racket. 

Mr. MosER. In Washington they sell it, and apparently have police 
protection ? 

The Witness. That is the only thing I can see. 

The Chairman. It is more of a racket where ? 

The W^iTNESS. In Washington, because it is a dollar, and dollar and 
a quarter, while in Baltimore it is $3. 

Mr. MosER. It is $3 in most places, isn't it ? 

The Witness. $3 in Baltimore ; $3 in Chicago ; it is a dollar in New 
York ; it is a dollar and a quarter in Philadelphia. 

Mr. MosER. The place where it is cheapest is the place where it is 
most available? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. And it is available where there is the least strict law 
enforcement ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Suppose the supply was cut off completely, and you 
never could get it, it would cost more then ? 

The Witness. Oh, it would cost more ; yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Would you be less likely to go back onto it? 

The Witness. Oh, no, I couldn't then. 

Mr. MosER. If it cost $5 to start with, say ? 

The Witness. $5 is entirely too much, like it was when people was 
going to Washington, fellows from Washington was coming to Balti- 
more — I mean fellows from Baltimore was going to Washington, 
because the people in Baltimore couldn't get $3 at all times, so they 
w^ould go to Washington. 

Mr. MosER. So if the supplv was cut off you would be less likely to 
start? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. At the time you were arrested last, were you getting it 
from a peddler around here somewhere? 

The Witness. Xo ; it was coming out of Washington. 

Mr. MosER. You say it was coming out of Washington, You mean 
some peddler would be getting it in Washington and bringing it here? 

The Witness. Bringing it to Baltimore, and it would be like this — 
some fellow who knew about me, he learned about me having at least 
$50 or $60 at a time, so he would sell it to me cheaper, which would be 
a dollar. 



24 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. When you would buy larger quantities ? 

The Witness. Yes. When I would buy $50 worth he would let me 
have it for 75 cents. 

The Chairman. Did you ever buy that much at a time, $50 worth? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And that would last you how long ? 

The Witness. Sometimes it would last me a couple of days longer, 
and sometimes it wouldn't. 

Mr. MosER. Depending on how you felt ? 

The Witness. Depending on how I felt. Fellows would come 
around that didn't have it. 

Mr. MosER. Do you have any idea where it comes from originally, 
how it gets into the country ? 

The Witness. To be frank, the closest I know about it, about the big 
people, as I say, is two white fellows and a Spanish fellow, one of them 
has been deported. 

Mr. Moser. Will you say that again; two white fellows? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; Mexicans. 

Mr. MosER. Two Mexicans ? 

The Witness. No, two white fellows and a Mexican, that I have 
known to fly, you know, stuff into the country. 

Mr. MosER.' To fly it in ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. And I only knew that from playing for 
them at the time, you know, when they have beach parties, and I have 
known it from that, and probably in California I have heard different 
ones, like I was working for them, would say they would have to go 
away for a couple of days. 

Mr. Moser. Where did they fly it from ? 

The Witness. Well, from India. 

Mr. Moser. India ? 

The Witness. From India, and some place they called — I forget 
what the merchant marines call it. 

Mr. Moser. Was any of it flown in from Italy ? 

The Witness. Oh, ves. 

Mr. Moser. Sicily?" 

The Witness. Sicily ; yes. There is one of the fellows that I have 
read about has been deported. 

Mr. Moser. Luciano? 

The Witness. Yes. In a way, you knoAv, I read about it. And a 
lot of them bring it in by tlie merchant marines. There is quite a few 
came in that way. 

Mr. Moser. The sailors bring it in ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. It is something for nothing. Like I said, 
from the beginning, quite a few people goes for that, they give you 
something for nothing. 

Mr. Moser. So the sailoi*s bring it in and sell it ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. The gangsters and racketeers give them so 
much money for it, by the time they get through cutting it or stretch- 
ing it, as some people call it, it is something for nothing. 

Mr. Moser. So you think a lot of sailors bring it in ? 

The Witness. Oii, yes, sir ; definitely. 

Mr. Moser. Do you know that because you know of it yourself, 
or have you just heard that ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 25 

The Witness. I have had it happen to me, a couple of merchant 
marines came to me and wanted to know if I wanted it. 

Mr. MosER. Came right to you? 

The Witness. Yes, sir, because tliey had known me, and seen me at 
the Paramount Theater, or maybe the Apollo Theater. Maybe some- 
one else had told them about it. 

Mr. MosER. So you probably personally know some who are the big 
people. 

The Witness. I am only a small fellow, as you would call it. I 
could not just say if you ottered me a million dollars, I couldn't just 
say, "Yes, I know." 

Mr. MosER. Well, I am not going to ask you. 

The Witness. No, but I am just saying, I am a small fellow, as you 
say, and a colored fellow, and there is a lot of places I can't go, a lot 
of places they would not accept me. 

The Chairman. Without asking you the names again, you, of course, 
liave been in pretty constant touch with the sellers, the peddlers over 
the years ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chair:man. What can you tell us as to whether those same 
peddlers are actually dealing with the schools, with the fellows or 
girls in the schools? 

The Witness. Well, I think that causes — I think that is caused by, 
like I have had a lot of people, officers, tell me they didn't want the 
little fellow, they wanted the big fellow, and when you continue lock- 
ing up the little fellows, then the sellers doesn't have any buyers, so 
they go around and try to accumulate some more users. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether they have been going around 
among the school children, around Douglas High? 

The Witness. I have had Miss White, the police lady, mentioned to 
me this time when I was arrested, and wanted to know a few questions 
which you fellows asked me, and I told her. 

The Chairman. You would not know from your contact with the 
peddlers whether they were at the time when they were over in Balti- 
more, coming over from Washington, whether they would be up 
around Douglas High ? 

The Witness. I wouldn't just say that. Maybe it was suggested to 
them, because I remember reading in the paper about the school, that 
they had people in there, you know, under the influence of drugs, from 
Chicago. 

The Chairman. You answered Mr. Moser that when you were 
using the reefers you got to the point where there were about a hun- 
dred of them using them in school. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And I was wondering whether in recent years — of 
course, you have been out of Douglas High for some time — but what do 
you know from being around Baltimore and in touch with the 
peddlers, whether you know they had been using anything else in the 
high schools since then. 

Mr. Moser. Probably using drugs as well as marijuana? 

The Witness. I think they have, because during those years the kids 
had to be otF the sti-eet at a certain, hour. But now you can see them 
on the street at 12 o'clock and 1 o'clock, so times are faster now. 



26 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. Did you say time is faster ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. I mean, kids nowadays, where I could take 
10 cents and be satisfied, the kids don't want 10 cents now. You must 
give them more money. 

Mr. MosER. You mean they are out spending money at night. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. I don't know what is causing it. 

The Chairman. You don't know from the peddlers? I thought 
maybe from meeting them occasionally you might know where he has 
been, or whether he has been up around the schools, or from other 
contacts or convei'sations with other fellows using it, whether you 
would learn that it was going to the schools. 

The Witness. Well, it had to be somewhat of that nature. I mean, 
from the way I heard it, it had to be, because things just don't happeii 
like that. 

Mr. MosER. Buster, it is frequently said that one addict will make 
five more. 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. Is that true ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir; just the same as one bad apple will spoil all 
of them. 

Mr. MosER. It is like a disease ? 

The Witness. For instance, like this place, I definitely don't think 
they should have addicts here. 

Mr. MosER. You don't think they should have ? 

The Witness. No, sir. Like I read in the paper, about the things,. 
I don't think so. 

Mr. MosER. You mean they will cause other people to become 
addicts ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Did you have other people — or did you know of other 
people to become addicts that way ? 

The Witness. I have had other people inquisitive to listen to the con- 
versation, the addicts would talk about different things on different 
occasions, and other people would hear about it, and eventually they 
are potential addicts, then, just waiting for the time to go out to try it. 

Mr. MosER. So each addict makes other people curious about it^ 
because he talks about it ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Does he want to make other people addicts ? 

The Witness. No, he was only, just like an incident may happen be- 
tween you fellows, and maybe a year ago you may have started talking 
about it, and then a stranger would come up and speak to you, and 
you would welcome him in, and this gentleman over there would con- 
tinue the conversation and he would get a slight idea of it, and he 
may ask someone else, or something. 

Mr. MosER. Now, you have been playing in orchestras all over the 
United States, haven't you ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. AVhen you go from one place to another, do you have 
any trouble picking up a supply ? 

The Witness. No, sir, just the same as you would getting a Coca- 
Cola, a bottle of Coca-Cola. 

Mr. MosER. Do the peddlers find you ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 27 

The Witness. In a way, they go to theaters and night chibs and 
pool rooms. 

Mr. MosER. They go there becanse you are in an orchestra and you 
are that type of person '? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser, They don't go because they have gotten advance notice 
that you are coming ? 

The Witness. They could have, at that, and now it isn't no trouble 
in every city you go in, there are addicts, definitely. 

Mr. MosER. There are peddlers ? 

The Witness. And peddlers, too. 

The Chairman. How would you know, Buster ? Suppose you were 
playing in New York, and you had to go to Chicago or to Cleveland, 
or some other city, and if you needed it right away, how would you 
know how to make the contact ? 

The Witness. Well, if I didn't have a direct connection, I would fre- 
quent some pool room or tavern where people doesn't do any work. 

Mr. Moser. A place where people are loitering? 

The Witness. Where people doesn't work, and doing somethings 
unlegit, and most generally you could get it. 

Mr. Moser. Somebody would come up to you, and you would learn 
that he was a peddler? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. They have a way of showing it in action 
and language that they speak, they calls it, you know, slang, and it 
isn't hard at all. 

Mr. Moser. You can find out right away ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Well, now, you have been to Lexington, haven't you? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. How long were you there, do you remember ? 

The Witness. I was there 27 months. 

Mr. MosElt. And they take you off it right away, don't they ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And it takes you 4 or 5 days to get back to normal ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And then they just keep you there while you 

The Witness. They keep you there and study, they niake a study of 
each person, and then they also have things they call a test, it is in 
research, so anyone that is willing to volunteer to go down, they can. 

Mr. Moser. Yes. Do you think they give you good treatment there ? 

The Witness. They did, but hundreds of them refused tests, they 
don't want it. 

Mr. Moser. Do you think there is a tendency for people to become 
peddlei-s there, for the addicts to become peddlers ? 

The Witness. No, sir, I don't think so. 

Mr. Moser. You get to meet a lot of peddlers, don't you ? 

The Witness. There? 

Mr. Moser. Yes. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Those are all good connections ? 

The Witness. Well, in a way, and sometimes it isn't. 

Mr. MoseU. When you get out, do you run across them again ? 



28 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Well, I have, because by my not being in one city all 
the time, I do. 

Mr. MosER. You have run across a lot of them ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. What they have told me there, I have 
learned it to be false, because each fellow was inclined to tell the other 
fellow he was such a big guy on the street, and when you see him, it is 
just vice versa. 

Mr. MosER. I see. Now, I want to ask you one other thing. You 
don't want to have anybody think that you have told on them because 
you are afraid, is that right ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. If you should tell on anybody you would be afraid? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Now, what you have told us today would not do you any 
harm, would it ? 

The Witness. I don't think so, because I am only telling you from 
my heart about the things that is actually the way they are. 

Mr. MosER. None of the people who would kill you if they knew 
what you told on them would be annoyed at what you told us today ? 

The Witness. I don't know, unless they get the wrong conception, 
because I am only telling you how I began, and what I actually think 
is the cause. 

Mr. Moser. You have told us a little bit about where it comes from 
and how prevalent it is, and you said some big people would fly it in. 
Do you think that might get you in trouble? I mean, that you told 
us about that, do you think that might get you in troubled 

The Witness. 1 mean, if it was publicized, it may at that. 

The Chairman. We won't do anything that will hurt you. 

Mr. Moser. If we reveal anything about what you said today, your 
name will not be connected with it. 

The Witness. I hope not. You gentlemen have some way to work 
on it, I know. 

Mr. Moser. We have been giving a little thought to the idea of 
having a television program or a movie, or something that would be 
shown all over the United States, in which we would have people like 
you just tell kids of the country what it does to you, and how bad it is, 
and how it ruins you, and how they should never even trv it for the 
thrill. 

If you should do a thing like that, would that get you in trouble, or 
would you mind ? 

The Witness. I couldn't see where it would get me in trouble, be- 
cause I would be telling the truth, because I would be even speaking for 
myself, what it had done to me, because within a matter of a couple of 
years, if I go that long, I will eventually be back in a place like this, 
if I continue to use drugs, because most of my record is based on 
drugs. 

Mr. Moser. You would not be embarrassed to tell the whole public 
what you have told us about yourself, would you? 

The Witness. No, sir ; I would not. 

The Chairman. You may be doing something good for the public, 
if you do. Buster. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. I began a book after I was arrested, you 
know, and it is at home. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 29 

Mr. MosER. You were writing? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. And When I get out, if it would mean any- 
thing, I would like to send it to you. 

Mr. MosER. Is it in your handwriting? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. INIosER. It tells how you got to be an addict ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hepbron. Couldn't we get that thing? 

The Chairjvean. Would you lend that to us ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Could you have it sent to us ? 

The Chairman. Well, if Mr. Keed can get it, it would be very 
helpful to us. 

Mr. Moser. Is it very long ? 

The Witness. Well, I would say so far it is about 15 to 20 pages, and 
it is in chapters, you know. 

Mr. Moser, Fifteen or twenty pages ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. It is divided up into chapters ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; it is in chapters. 

Mr. Moser. If we promise we will read it for our own information 
and give it back to you, you will lend it to us ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Cil^irman. We won't make any use of it that you don't author- 
ize us to. You know we will play on the level. 

The Witness. I am sure you will. 

Mr. Moser. I think that Buster has been extremely helpful. 

The Chairman. Yes. All right ; thank you Buster. 

Now, will you call in the next witness, please. 

William, my name is Senator O'Conor, and these other men are 
representatives from the Senate committee. We just want to talk to 
you a little, quietly and informally. Would you be satisfied to do 
it with us ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Would you mind being sworn ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

The Chairman. In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear 
that the testimony which you are about to give is the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth ? 

The Witness. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MR. , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. William, just sit down and make yourself comfort- 
able. 

We want to tell you at the outset that we are not here to cause you 
any harm. W^e have no desire to make any case against you or to do 
anything that will cause you any trouble, and we want you to be sure of 
that, and if you are not, tell us so. We are not here to get you involved 
in anything. Do you know what I mean? 

The Witness. Yes. 



85277— 51— pt. 14 3 



30 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Would you be satisfied just to talk with us for a 
little while and discuss with us the general situation so that we might 
be in a position to give some help ? 

The Witness. What little I know, if it will help you any — I mean, 
that is all right. 

The Chairman. Whatever you know you would be willing to tell us 
on and help us on ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir; I mean, what I know. I mean, I don't 
know much, but what little I know, I will be glad to help. 

The Chairman. Let me ask you how old you are ? 

The Witness. Thirty-three. 

The Chairman. And where do you live ? 

The Witness. Baltimore. 

Tlie Chairman. What part? 

The Witness. Northwest. 

The Chairman. Northwest? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Have you lived there very long? 

The Witness. All my life. 

The Chairman. What work have you done? 

The Witness. Labor work, porter work. 

Tlie Chairman. Labor work and porter work? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. What family have j^ou ? 

The Witness. Sir. 

The Chairman. What family ? Have you been married ? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. How many brothers and sisters do you have? 

The Witness. I have five sisters. I did have one brother, but he 
is not living. 

The Chairman. And your father and mother ? 

The Witness. Living. 

The Chairman. And are all your sisters living? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That is a pretty big family. 

The Witness. Yes, sir; that is right. 

The Chairman. Well, now, Mr. Moser, our chief counsel, would 
just like to ask you some questions, and we just want to go along in a 
friendly way and in a quiet way and see if you can help us. 

The Witness. All right. 

Mr. ]\IosER. Your nickname is Bill ? 

The Witness. My nickname; yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. It is Bill ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Now, Bill, I understand that you are in here practically 
voluntarily. 

The Witness. It is voluntary. 

Mr. Moser, Yes, sir. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And you came in because you wanted to get off tho 
habit ; is that right? 

The Witness. That is right. 



ORGAXIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 31 

Mr. MosER. Now, what we are doing in representing, a Senate com- 
mittee, a United States Senate committee, which is trying to find a 
sohition to some of the narcotic problems, and we are trying to figure 
out Avhat kind of hiws there should be, and what should be done 
about it. 

We are not trying to get any particular individual or cause any 
trouble for any particular individual, but we are just trying to find 
out about things, in general, you see. 

Now, I understand that you have been an addict for about 18 
months before vou came in ; is that right ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. ]\IosER. Did you ever use reefers ? 

The Witness. No, sir, 

Mr. Moser. You never did ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Did many of the kids that you knew as a boy use them? 

The Witness. Well, quite a few fellows did. 

Mr. Moser. When you were in school ? 

The Witness. No, no ; since I have been out of school. 

Mr. Moser. After you have been out of school ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Did you spend much time with them while they were 
using reefers, to see how it affected them? 

The Witness. Well, I have been around them and seen them, but — 
I mean, the etfect it takes on them I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Moser. You didn't know whether they got wild or drunk? 

The Witness. I never noticed anj^body to be wild. I have been 
around fellows that laughed a lot. 

Mr. Moser. They would act silly? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; in that respect. 

Mr. Moser. Sort of as if thev had had too much liquor or some- 
tliing? 

Tlie Witness. Like that. 

Mr. JNIosER. Do you know very nnich about wdiere reefers were 
bought or where they came from ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. When you were in school, did you ever see them around ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. None at all? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. How did you ever happen to get on this ; how did you 
become an addict? 

The Witness. I was managing a poolroom, and there were quite 
a few fellows in the neighborhood w4io would use it. 

Mr. Moser. Wait a minute. I guess I didn't hear you. You were 
manager of a poolroom ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And there were quite a few fellows who would 

The Witness. Fellows in the neighborhood used to use it. 

Mr. Moser. They were addicts and lived in the neighborhood? 

The Witness. They were not addicts then, I guess they were just 
starting. 

Mr. Moser. They were users ? 



32 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTFRSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Yes. And by me going around quite a bit with them, 
I started to use it too. I guess that is the only way I know. 

Mr. MosER. I see. Did somebody suggest that you try it just for 
the fun of it ? 

The Witness. Well, it was more out of my own curiosity, I guess. 

Mr. MosER. You were curious ? 

The W^iTNESs. I used to see it and talk about it and decided to try 
one and then tried it again. 

Mr. MosER. Did you start it first by sniflfing it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Sniffing a powder? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you like it ? 

The Witness. Well, I tried it again. I tried it more than once, 
and then I started to use the needle. 

Mr. MosER. When you sniffed it, did you get a thrill out of it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. It made you feel good ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How soon did you try it again after the first time ? 

The Witness. Oh, about 3 or 4 days. 

Mr. Moser. You just tried it again and got another thrill out of it; 
was that it ? 

The Witness. That is the idea. 

Mr. Moser. How long did you sniff it before you got to use a needle; 
do you remember ? 

The Witness. About 3 months. 

Mr. Moser. You sniffed it how often — twice a week? 

The Witness. Maybe twice a week, maybe three times a week. 

Mr. Moser. How long did the thrill last ? 

The Witness. About 3 or 4 hours, I would say. 

Mr. Moser. And then it died off ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Did you feel sick afterwards ? 

The Witness. No, sir ; not for quite a while. 

Mr. Moser. Now, how did you switch over to the needle? 

The Witness. Well, you see, there was fellows that I was going 
with, they said that you would get a better kick out of it with the 
needle than you do with the sniffing. 

Mr. Moser. So you thought you would try it ? 

The Witness. I tried that. 

Mr. Moser. Did you get a better kick out of it ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. It was quicker ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And it did not take so long — or it did not take so much, 
I mean ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Just skin shots ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. You started right in the vein ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You never tried skin shots ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 33 

The Witness. I didn't know abont that; by being with the other 
fellows, they put it in me. 
Mr. MosER. They started you in ; they showed you how? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How long was it before you could do it yourself ? 

The Witness. Not long ; about a month. 

Mr. Moser. How often did they give you shots before you started in 
yourself? 

The Witness. Nobody gave them to you. I mean, once you get 
into it, you pay for what you get. 

Mr. MosER. Yes, I know, but how often did you have them to start? 

The Witness. Oh, I mean, starting, you would need, maybe you 
would take a half cap, maybe you wouldn't want more for a couple of 
days, and maybe you would want some more the next day. 

Mr. MosER. So at the start it was maybe once a day or maybe once 
every 2 days ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. But then later on you wanted it oftener? 

The Witness. Well, the more you used it — I mean, it gets you in a 
way that you don't realize how it has gotten you until it has you down ; 
do you know what I mean ? 

Mr. MosER. Yes. 

The Witness. Then you start off with maybe half a cap, and it 
takes a little more and a little more, and each day you take more. 

Mr. Moser. Wliy did you take more, because you needed more? 

The Witness. Well, yes, sir. You see, after a while, after you get 
hooked, then if you don't have it you feel bad. 

Mr. MosER. You feel sick ? 

The Witness. That is right. And then you take enough — you take 
some so as not to be sick. 

Mr. Moser. Can you figure how long it was before you knew you 
were hooked ? 

The Witness. I would say about 8 or 10 months, I think — no, 6 or 
8 months. 

Mr. MosER. Six or eight months before you were hooked? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And then you would have to take it because you felt 
sick ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. How often did you feel sick ? 

The Witness. Well, it is according to how strong the stuff was. If 
you take someone that had pretty decent stuff, it would do you more 
good in that respect. Well, sometimes you would take three times as 
much, and it wouldn't do you as much good ; it wouldn't be as strong. 

Mr. MosER. So when you would take a shot, you would not know at 
the time you took it how long it ^^ ould be good for { 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. You might be sick for a short or long time, depending 
on how good it was ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. And as soon as you felt sick you took another one? 

The Witness. Sometimes you would try to go without it, until you 
finally give in to it. 



34 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr, MosER. Because you felt so sick you just couldn't staud it? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. I don't mean the names of anybody, but what kinds of 
people would sell it to you, the peddlers ? Were they lianging around 
the poolroom looking for customers ? 

The Witness. No, sir; wasn't anybody around our neighborhood 
selling — it was in the neighborhood, but it wasn't right up in that 
section. 

Mr. MosER. Did you have to go some place to find a peddler? 

The Witness. Well, the fellows I had gotten in with, they used 
to go to Washington mostly. They would go to Washington to a 
fellow selling it cheaper. Baltimore would charge $o for a capsule, 
and they could go over there and get it for a dollar. 

The Chairman. Why is that, Bill ? 

The Witness. I don't know why, but I mean that is the way the 
prices were, because we w^ould go over there and get it and use it our- 
selves and wouldn't need as nuich money. 

Mr. MosER. You would make trips to Washington for the purpose 
of getting a supply ? 

The Witness. Not exactly a supply. I mean, we would go over 
there some days, and just stay over there all day. You can get three 
times as much for the same money, so we would go to Washington. 

Mr. MosER. You would stay there all day and maybe have one shot? 

The Witness. Maybe one in a day, and maybe one at night, some- 
thing like that. 

Mr. MosER. And then you would come back ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Yes. And where did you go? You don't have to 
identify the places, unless you want to. 

The Witness. We used to go around Seventh and T. 

Mr. Moser. Seventh and T? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. What kind of a place was it ? 

The Witness. It was a place where everybody was doing the same 
thing. 

Mr. Moser. That was the place where they were selling it? 

The Witness. Selling it and using it. 

The Chairman. Were there many young people there? 

The Witness. I wouldn't say any young ones, there was no teen- 
agers over there, or nothing like that. 

Mr. Moser. They were fellows around 20 or 30 years old ? 

The Witness. They were 20, 30, 40, 50. 

Mr. Moser. Were most of them colored ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; most of them. 

Mr. Moser. All of them or most of them ? 

The Witness. All of them that I ever run into. 

Mr. Moser. How many people would be in this place at a time? 

The Witness. Well, sometimes there would be 5 maybe 10, they 
w^ould be coming and going. 

Mr. Moser. And the people who ran the place were just selling it 
and using it — not using it, but giving you shots ? 

The Witness. Yes. They had the till for you to use, you paid for 
what you wanted, they give you the stuff, and you were right there 
in the same room and would use it. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 35 

Mr. MosER. It only takes a minute to give a shot, doesn't it? 

The Witness. That is all. 

Mr. MosER. What did you do after you had a shot ? 

The Witness. We would go out, maybe go to a movie or something 
like that. 

Mr. MosER. While you were out you felt perfectly normal? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. You felt fine after you had }' our shot ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. After you had been to the movies or something, then 
you would go back and have some more? 

The Witness. Yes ; you probably would. 

Mr. MosER, It was just like going into a bar and getting a drink ? 

The Witness. About the same thing. 

Mr. Moser. Are there any other places in Washington besides Sev- 
enth and T? 

The Witness. There have been places, once you go in a place, you 
see different fellows and they will recognize you. You wouldn't 
know their name and probably they never know your name, but they 
recognize you. You hold a conversation and the next day, this fellow 
he will go somewhere and get something for you, something like that. 
A lot of times there was one place where you would meet them, and 
the next time you would go over there and they wouldn't be there. 

The Chairman. How would you know where to go then ? 

The Witness. By seeing diflerent fellows. 

Mr. MosER. They would pass the word? 

The Witness. Just like anything else, I guess, if people are doing 
one thing you can almost recognize the fellow that does the same 
thing. 

Mr. Moser. So these places would be in different locations ? 

The Witness. Yes. sir. 

Mr. MosER. And all in Washington ? 

The Witness. That is the only place I have ever been, 

Mr. MosER. They don't have any places in Baltimore? 

The Witness. Not like that. 

Mr. MosER. Have you ever bought it in Baltimore ? 

The Witness. Well, I have. 

Mr. MosER. "Wlio did you buy it from ? 

The Witness. Well, I bought it from 

Mr. INIosER. Not his name. 

The Witness. A couple of fellows on the avenue at different times, 
not very often, because like I say 

The Chairman. Pennsylvania Avenue? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. JNIosER. Do they approach you, when you see a man on the street, 
how do you happen to hook up with him and know that he is a peddler ? 

The Witness. You see, like I say, fellows see you around, and they 
know you. You know one fellow, and somebody else knows you. They 
introduce you, something like that. When they see you they approach 
you. If they think they know that you use it, if they think you are 
a drug addict. 

Mr. MosER. Wliere do they get the idea that you are ? They cannot 
tell by looking at you, can they ? 



36 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. I guess it is just like anything else. Fellows that 
use it, they have mostly been around one another, you know. 

Mr. MosER. And the peddlers get to know who they are? 

The Witness. That is right. I mean, it is not like you have to go 
to different places to see a person, I mean, it is mostly all around m 
one section. 

Mr. Moser. Now, you would go down to Washington for these trips, 
but you would go on one day and then the next day you would need it 
again, would you not ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir, 

Mr. MosER. You would bring some back with you ? 

The Witness. No; I never brought any back with me, because I 
never had enough money to go get anything to amount to anything. 

Mr. MosER. So you would be sick ? 

The Witness. I would be sick until I could do something for 
myself. 

Mr. MosER. How long would that be ? 

The Witness. Before the day was over I would probably get 
something. 

Mr. MosER. Up here ? 

The Witness. On the Avenue. In a case like that, where one 
person just wouldn't go, I mean, maybe four or five fellows would get 
together and pool their money and go over. 

Mr. MosER. You couldn't go to Washington every day ? 

The Witness. Oh, no. 

Mr. MosER. How many days were you taking it when you came in 
here, how often ? 

The Witness. How often? 

Mr. MosER. Yes. 

The Witness. I used to use about three a day before I come in 
myself. 

Mr. MosER. About three a day ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. You didn't go to Washington? 

The Witness. Some days I didn't use any, because I couldn't get 
none. I didn't have no money some days. 

Mr. MosER. So you felt sick ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

The Chairman. How much was it costing you at the most? 

The Witness. In a day, you mean ? 

The Chairman. By the week, say. 

The Witness. I never even counted it, but I imagine 7 days to a 
week, and when a man gets hooked it has to have some every day. 

The Chairman. Well, if you took three capsules a day, let's say, an 
average of $2 for it, and you would buy some in Baltimore for $3 and 
some in Washington for $1, so it would average $2, that would be 
$6 a day, 7 days a week, and that would be from $40 to $50 a week ? 

The Witness. Well, probably so. You see, some days I mean, you 
just say on the average, but there is a lot of days you probably wouldn't 
have any money. Well, then again, it is just like us fellows doing the 
same thing, usually doing maybe — well, I will do you a favor and you 
don't have any money, and they see you sick and they give you money, 
and the next time you might have some money and buy some for the 
other fellow. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 37 

The Chairman. So you set each other up ? 

The Witness. In other words, yes. 

The Chairman. Treating each other ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. So that it would even out in the long run^ 

The Witness. That is right. 

The Chairman. You were paying maybe $40 a week for your habit ? 

The Witness. Well, I guess if you had $4:0, 1 guess 1 paid $40. 

Mr. Moser. Did you find you always spent whatever you had on it? 

The Witness. No, sir ; I wouldn't say not all I had. That is accord- 
ing to how much I had, I probably had money enough to keep from 
being sick and money to do other things, and I would do other things. 
Sometimes when you didn't have money to do it but once and then 
again you didn't have money to do anything. 

Mr. MosER. You were convicted of manslaughter at one time, weren't 
you? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. But that was long before you got on the drug habit? 

The Witness. That was 1941. I didn't know nothing about drugs. 

Mr. Moser. So there was no connection between that manslaughter 
charge and your drug habit? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Your brother was killed, was he not? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Was that related to drugs at all? 

The Witness. So far as I know, it was. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think he was on drugs ? 

The Witness. I know he was using them, but I say, so far as I 
know about the incident, it was concerning drugs. 

Mr. MosER. How old were you when that happened? 

The Witness. How old was I? It was just last year. 

Mr. Moser. It was just last year? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You think he had been hooked? 

The Witness. He had been using it quite a while before I was. 

Mr. Moser. He had? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. What happened to the fellow who killed him ? 

The Witness. He was sent to the penitentiary. 

The Chairman. From Baltimore? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Was there any connection between drugs and the fact 
that he was killed ? 

The Witness. So far as I know, it was a connection between them. 

Mr. Moser. Not because they got in a fight or anything? 

The Witness. No, sir. The way it happened, so far as I know, he 
had bought some drugs from this boy, and it wasn't no good, and he 
wanted his money back and he started an argument and a fight. After 
he left the boy came somewhere else and shot him. So evidently it was 
concerning the drugs. 

Mr. MosER. It was a fight over who owed the money for the drugs? 

The Witness. No; he had paid him but the drugs was no good. 

Mr. Moser. It was over the money on it, though ? 



38 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Do you know of any cases where boys have died from 
overdoses of drugs ? 

The Witness. No, sir; I don't know of them. I have read about a 
couple of boys in the paper Last year, I think it was. 

Mr. MosER. But you did not know of any of them ? 

The Witness. I did not know them. 

Mr. MosER. Now, have you ever seen anyone take such a strong dose 
that they would get very sick from an overdose ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Do they take it carefully ? 

The Witness. Some fellows I guess use much more than others. 
Some fellows takes maybe three times as much as I would use for 
taking care of them. 

Mr. MosER. Now, if you had known at the time you started that 
it would have been permanent, that you would be hooked, or likely 
to be permanent and you had been hooked, and what it would do to you, 
would you have started it? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You are here hoping to be cured for life, aren't you? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Do you think you will be tempted again when you get 
out? 

The Witness. No doubt I will be tempted, but I am going to try 
to fight against it. That is all I can do. 

Mr. Moser. That is all I have. Thank you. 

The Chairman. That is very good. Thank you. 

Mr. Moser. You know once you start you keep going until you are 
hooked, don't you ? 

The Witness. From what I have seen of other fellows, I think that 
is about it. I know fellows who have gotten away from it and stayed 
away, so I figure I could do it, too. 

Mr. Moser. Do you have any ideas where the drugs come from that 
you pick up in Washington and other places, where they come from 
outside ? 

The Witness. No, sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Moser. You have never heard any talk about where it comes 
from ? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. Bill, in your contacts with the peddlers, either up 
on the Avenue, Pennsylvania Avenue, or around, can you tell us 
anything about, and can you help us out as to whether or not they 
have been dealing with any people in schools, children in schools? 

The Witness. No, sir. I have read quite a bit about that, but so far 
as I know I am telling the truth. I haven't seen any young men, school 
people, using it or even around. 

The Chairman. We want you to tell the truth. 

The Witness. That is right. I have not. 

The Chairman. I thought maybe around the poolrooms you might 
have heard something about whether they were trying to do that. 

The Witness. I understand. I have seen quite a few schoolboys 
around, but I mean, so far as just seeing them implicated or trying to 
get any or using any, I really haven't seen them. 

The Chairman. That is all right. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 39 

Mr. MosER. Bill, you came in here voluntarily, but before you came 
in did you try to find a place to go other than through the police, or 
did you go right to the police? 

The WriNEss. I went to a boy in Boyd Martin's office. I tried to 
get in the hospital. At first I tried to do it at home. 

Mr. MosER. Was that Boyd Martin? 

The Chairman. Yes. Boyd Martin, he is with Narcotics. How 
did you come to know him ? 

The AViTNESs. Well, there is a fellow who worked in the Post Office, 
and I had been talking to him, and I told him I wanted to try to get 
in the hospital. By his working in the Post Office he referred me 
to his office. 

Mr. MosER. Instead of going to prison like this, you would have 
liked to have gone to a hospital? 

The Witness. Yes, sir, very much. 

Mr. MosER. But they don't have any hospital? 

The Witness. When I went down there they told me that Lexing- 
ton had a waiting list but most of them were addicts that had been in 
there before, and that they were taking most of the young people, so 
he referred me to Sergeant Carroll on the vice squad in Baltimore. 

Well, Sergeant Carroll told me there wasn't anything he could do 
and he couldn't lock me up because he didn't have anything on me. He 
asked me if I was serious about it and I said "Yes." Then he said I 
would have to do something so he could hold me. So I asked him 
what I could do, or what I would have to do, and he told me that he 
had to have something to charge me with. 

At the time I had been using the hypo. I broke it up, but I went 
and got one, and I was trying to get in Lexington. In fact, that is 
where I was going after the case came up, and they still said there 
wasn't no room in Lexington, so Judge Sherborough said he would 
have to send me down here. The way he explained it, he would send 
me here for treatments, but I haven't had any treatments, I am just 
like anybody else now; I feel fine, I mean, since I have been away 
from it but I guess treatments would have helped me most. 

Mr. MosER. The treatment here is to just take you off it ? 

The Witness. I don't know, if I could have gotten off it in the 
street, just like I said, I was inexperienced. 

Mr. MosER. I believe you said you tried to get off it at home? 

The Witness. Just by staying in and staying away from every- 
thing, but I couldn't do it, you know. So I mean, if I had known it 
was like this I guess I might have locked myself in the house, but I 
don't know, so here I am. 

Mr. MosER. So you have to stay off of it here. 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; that is it'. 

The Chairman. Well, I think that covers it. Thank you. Bill. 

Will you call next, please ? 

Charles, these other men are connected with us from the Senate, and 
we just wanted to talk with you, not to get you in any difficulty, but 
just to talk about things generally. Are you willing to talk to us? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear 
that the evidence you are about to give will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth? 

The Witness. I do. 



40 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

TESTIMONY OF MR. , DRUG PEDDLER 

The Chairman. Now, you are ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Just in order to have you understand clearly what 
we are doing, we are not out to make any cases against you, or any- 
thing of the kind, and we are not wanting to have anything from you 
that would get you in any difficulty, but we just want to go into 
various angles of this whole situation, if you will help us. 

The Witness. Yes, I understand. 

The Chairman. We want you to feel perfectly free and realize that 
it is a friendly effort on our part to just get all the truth and the facts. 
So would you be willing to tell us all you know ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. First of all, where are you from ? 

The Witness. Baltimore. 

The Chairman. Have you lived there all your life ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Where do you live ? 

The Witness. I was at 671 Pierce Street. I lived there twenty- 
some-odd yeai's. 

The Chairman. What work have you been doing ? , 

The Witness. I have been in business for myself a couple of times, 
and when I come here I was driving a tractor and trailer for an 
express company. 

The Chairman. ^\^iat kind of business did you do for yourself? 

The Witness. Well, I was in the upholstery business, and I had 
trucks. Williams Transfer. 

The Chairman. You owned it yourself ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Wliat family do you have ? 

The Witness. Sir? 

The Chairman. Wliat family do you have ? 

The Witness. Now I don't have any. I had a mother. She died, 
it has been 12 or 13 years ago. I have been on m}' own since I have 
been about 15. 

The Chairman. You have never been married ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; I have. 

The Chairman. Were you in the Army ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long? 

The Witness. I was in the Army a year. 

The Chairman. Where were you ? 

The Witness. I was inducted at Fort Meade and I went from there 
to Wilmington, N. C, to Camp Davis, and from there to Fort Bliss, 
Tex., and from there to California. 

The Chairman. You did not go over ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

The Chairman. What is your nickname ? 

The Witness. They call me Junior. 

The Chairman. Junior, this is Mr. Moser, chief counsel, and he 
will just ask some questions now, and you give us as much help as you 
can, will yoU? 

The Witness. Yes, sir, I will. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 41 

Mr. MosER. Junior, I want you to understand that this Senate com- 
mittee is merely trying; to get information to see if we cannot find some 
sohition to the drug situation. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And anything you can tell us will not be held against 
you, and everything you tell us will not be connected with you, so 
anything you tell us will come out and nobody will know where it 
came from. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Now, you are in here for peddling, as I understand it. 

The Witness. Well, they got me charged with possession and a dis- 
orderly house, and I had iS months' probation for a suit of clothes I 
bought last year. 

Mr. MosER. Stolen goods? 

The Witness. Yes, sir, it was the same officer in that case. 

Mr. Moser. You don't use drugs at all yourself ? 

The Witness. No, sir, I don't. 

Mr. Moser. And you never have ? 

The Witness. Never have. 

Mr. Moser. But you have sold them? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; I have sold them. 

Mr. Moser. All right. Now, we are not charging you with selling 
at all. 

The Witness. Yes, sir; I understand that. 

Mr. Moser, We want to know what the system is, you see. 

Now, when you sell drugs to other people you are doing it to make 
money, of course. 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; that is the general idea. 

Mr. Moser. That is the general idea ; yes. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. JNIoser. How do you get customers? Do you go around to 
persuade people to buy drugs from you? 

The- Witness. No, sir, you don't go around persuading people. 
Most of the people I grew up with, somehow or other along the line 
was addicts, most of my friends, and I just started in at it before I 
come here ; I think I started about 2 or 3 months. I had been intimate 
with them and I knew a lot that was going on, and you can just sell 
to your friends mostly, that is how I got into it, tlirough another 
friend. 

My wife and I had a little trouble and we broke up, and I thought 
I could o;et enough quick money so that I could get another business 
after being in this a little while. That was my general idea. 

This old friend just did 6 months in Kentucky. 

Mr. Moser. Lexington? 

The Witness. Lexington. He got picked up ; when we fii-st started 
out we weren't operating a month. 

Mr. Moser. You and he were operating together ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir, but he is an addict. Before he started to 
fool with it I tried to talk him out of it. He said he wouldn't give it 
up for his mother or anybody. 

I want to say this, I think you have got a wrong opinion, I will bet, 
about everybody being an addict is trying to sell you the idea that 
Kentucky is the best place for an addict. 



42 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. Well, w*e have not talked about Kentucky, but I would 
be interested in knowing your thought. 

The Witness. They say that they cure you there. I know practi- 
cally all of them, there is very few here I "don't know, among the ad- 
dicts, and I may not know some as well as the others, but I would 
know quite a bit about them. They want to go there because it is 
easier there. You say you give them a cure, but the idea that the 
addicts is that they want to know how you get it out of their heads. 

Mr. MosER. In other words, Lexington gets them off the stuff, but 
doesn't get it out of their heads ? 

The Witness. In other words, like there are some here, I want 
to explain it my way, if I can. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

The Witness. You understand, like you take a child, and he gets 
burned by a fire, well, he has got sense enough not to go back to the fire 
that burned him before, no matter how young he was. 

You hear a lot of talk in the papers about addicts, and people tak- 
ing advantage of them, and that they have got to have it, and they 
are just underdogs. Well, it doesn't tend to work that kind of way. 
It just gives them a good excuse for what they want, they claim they 
have the habit, and it gives them an excuse for anything they do. It 
gives them an excuse, because they say I had to keep my habit up. 
"Wlien you send them here to break the habit, I know all of them here 
break the habit, but they have no results, they could easily give it up 
then, or anybody can, wdien they stay away, but the idea is in their 
heads, and they don't intend to give it up. 

There is one boy who works here who lived at my house, I was 
telling him that I was going to leave town. Incidentally, I don't 
intend to fool with dope any more — but I was telling him that I would 
leave town because the officers who sent me up — well, rightfully, I was 
breaking the law, but I never got caught doing it — I told him I was 
going to leave town and he said, "We will leave town together." I 
said, "You can't go unless you give up the habit." He says, "AVell, I 
have to get a little stuff with me." 

Now, lie doesn't have to have it. It is everybody's intention to get 
it as soon as they get out. It is just like a man, if you put him in jail, 
A'ou just temporarily stop him from doing something, and no sooner 
ihan he gets out, if it is in his mind not to do any better, he will do 
it all over again. You have not cured him. 

It isn't that they have just got to have it, I think the majority of 
people just misunderstand. I mean, it is in their minds and they 
are going to do it. 

I will draw a parallel : I like a woman. Well, I mean, you can tell 
me that the woman is no good, and this and that and everything about 
her, and show me where she is bad, but I know she has got what I like, 
and I am going to get it. I am not going to get it because I have to 
have it, but I am going to get it because I like it. 

Mr. MosER. Because you like it ? 

The Witness. Because I like it. 

The Chairman. When you were selling drugs, how did you know — 
oh, yes, of course, you said you, did sell it among your friends. 

The Witness. That is right. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMIMERCE 43 

The Chairman. But were there any times when you had more 
to sell than you were getting rid of, and wanted to get rid of more, 
and you would look for some other customers ? 

The Witness. Well, now, that is the thing I mean. Unless you 
want to be greedy about it. I mean, the business I was in, it was all 
right with me working, I was getting along all right. I never wanted 
to meet anybody new. That is the danger in meeting new people, 
because you don't know who you are meeting with. I figure that if I 
deal with people I know, there was plenty of them, and I did a pretty 
good business. 

Mr. MosER. Could you tell us how big a business you did? How 
many capsules you would sell a week, or how many dollars you would 
take in in a week ? 

The Witness. Well, I would say, let's see now, most of the time 
when I first started picking up, I would pick up — I tell you how this 
fellow and I started — I was working, and one day I drove past the 
corner, and I was thinking to myself; thinking that I could get in it 
real quick and get a little something out of it and then give it up, 
so I drove past this fellow, and I knew he had been fooling with it, 
in fact, he had a pretty good bag himself — you know, you call dope 
a bag— you understand, there was a couple of fellows, and they had a 
good bag between them, they had built up a business between them, 
but he went broke shooting "C" — that is cocaine. In other words, 
they describe that as a luxury, or something, and they just enjoy it. 

He got out to a "C" party one night, and overnight he shot up his 
money, and then they had to sell the car to his other friend, and he 
was back just where he started from. 

Mr. Moser. You mean that he was shooting "C," and got hopped 
up and spent all his money? 

The Witness. In other words, see, the way "C" works, "C" only 
holds 15 minutes, that is the way he explains it, he explained all the 
details, and I observed things. 

Mr. Moser. "C" only holds 15 minutes? 

The Witness. About 15 minutes. I asked him about the sensa- 
tion, and he said it was quite a sensation, so I said, "What sen- 
sation do you get from 'C'?" He said, "Mack, the best thing I can 
do to describe it to you" — you see, he calls me Mack, that is just inti- 
mate between the families, he called me Mack, because my nose was 
big like INIack in the funny paper — and he says, "Mack, the best way 
I can explain that," he says, "I will tell you how 'C feels, for 15 min- 
utes you don't know nothing, you just blow your nuts for 15 minutes 
straight." 

Now, the other stuff is supposed to hold them up all day long, and 
the feeling they get, it takes care of all their needs. They don't want 
a woman; everything they need they get; they feel satisfied, from 
what I can understand, anyhow, at $3 a shot or two and a half. I 
think "C" sells for, I never had any "C", but I think it sells for two 
and a half a cap. 

So he had this girl out on what they call a "C" party. 

Mr. Moser. They both took some? 

The Witness. Yes; and they just keep buying until finally he 
was broke . The next day, the car wasn't completely paid for, and he 
sells it out to his partner. So he is broke now. 



44 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

He started working, and he only took a job on a banana boat — — 

Mr. MosER. Well, let's get off him. You and he started in the busi- 
ness together? 

The Witness. Yes. He had the same idea at the same time, only 
we didn't have any understanding. 

Mr. MosER. And you and he went into "H"? 

The Witness. To "H" ; that is right. See, he was hurrying down 
the street, and I called him from my truck, and I asked him where he 
w^as going and he said, "I am on my way to ptick up." I said, *'That 
is fine. I had the same idea. Why don't you let me go with you?" 

He said, "Yes; you can go up with me." 

I had just talked my wife into taking a loan on the furniture, and I 
got some money, so I had a little money saved up, and I lend him a 
car ; I had a car, and he went on, picked up, and I went to work. When 
he came back by, he being a user, I kept the stuff. I wouldn't let him 
know where the stuff was at. We started with about a hundred dollars 
between us. Just as we got started good 

Mr. MosER. You had capsules? 

The Witness. Capsules. We picked up capsules. If you get it 
by the ounce it is cheaper, you get more caps, and it is cheaper. We 
picked it up by the capsules. We had to give a man a dollar and a 
quarter, and he takes the quarter for his commission for going and 
getting it, and you sell it for $3, and you get a profit of $1.75 on each 
capsule, so I kept the bag. 

Mr. MosER. Wliere did the fellow that you bought it from get it? 
Did he get it from Washington ? 

The Witness. I don't know where he went that time. I think it 
was Washington . 

Mr. Moser. You knew that he would just go down some place and 
get it ? 

The Witness. They have channels ; you have got to know somebody. 

Mr. MosER. You have to have a connection ? 

The Witness. That is right. That is why, him not knowing the 
place to go, he had a go-between. 

Mr. Moser. I see. But you never knew where he went? 

The Witness. Not at that time, no. 

Mr. MosER. You did later? 

The Witness. Yes : I knew later. 

Mr. Moser. Do you know now ? 

The W^iTNESs. Sure I know now. 

Mr. MosER. Could you go there yourself if you wanted to ? 

The Witness. I imagine I could, if he is still there. You know, it 
is awfully funny, but once they get suspicious, the guys move right 
out. 

The Witness. They move around a lot. 

Mr. Williams. They move around a lot. 

Mr. Moser. How do you find out where they are ? 

The Witness. Well, you find a guy in the know who knows what 
is happening, and he tells you where you can see such-and-such a one. 
You can always see somebody who knows. 

Mr. MosER. How many capsules did you buy and sell a week, 
roughly ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 45 

The Witness. AMieii we started, we used to get $250 worth a week, 
but 

Mr. MosER. You would sell that every week ? 

The Witness. Sell that every week. Sometimes you would sell 
more. But the ouly dauger in that, you would buy $250 worth at oue 
time, and then maybe something better would come along, and they 
would go somewhere else. 

Mr. Moser. The customers will change ? 

The Witness. They go, and you have to wait until they come back. 
In otlier words, if you buy your stuff, and somebody says that such- 
and-such a one got something so much better some place else, then 
they go there. 

The Chairman. How did yours get up to — how much did it get up 
to ? A'Nniat was the highest you were getting a week ? 

The Witness. When things are good, when you get something real 
good, I remember one time I went to New York for it, and got some, 
and we got an ounce and a half, and during those times, while I had 
that, I could get sometimes $75 or $100, even, and on a good day 
I could get $150 a day. 

The Chairman. Were you getting up to $1,000 a week at any time? 

The Witness. No ; I had not got that far vet. 

The Chairman. Well, $150 a day 

The Witness. That is on a good day, but you can't figure on it. 
But if you have got something nice, something good, you can figure 
on an average of $75 a day, if you have got something real good, then 
that takes all the business away from everybody else. 

It is just such a large circle, that if one man has the best stuff, he 
gets the best business. 

The Chairman. Was there much difference in the stuff as handled 
b}' several different peddlers? 

The Witness. Oh, yes; it is much different. Some they couldn't 
hardly get rid of at $1 or $1.50. Finally they would try to get you to 
take it at that. 

]Mr. Moser. Did you find that what you got in your supply changed ? 

The Witness. Sometimes it was better, and sometimes, you see, the 
way tlie guys explained to me, sometimes it is stronger, and when it is 
stronger, you can sell more. 

In Washington, you have got more snorters, those people that don't 
shoot it, they snort it up their nose, and it is too strong, and it makes 
their nose bleed or irritates the nose, so it is cut until it doesn't irritate 
the nose. 

The majority of customers are snorters. 

So from Baltimore you have to get the snorter stuff mostly. You 
understand, you don't have personal contacts with the man, and it is 
only your go-between that is the man that you have to ask, and you 
ask him to talk to the man and see if he can make it a little stronger, 
because the shooters are complaining that it is not strong enough. 

Mr. ]MosER. Look, Junior, you said your customers would leave and 
go away ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. These people were people that you knew well, so you 
were safe? 

85277— 51— pt. 14-^4 



46 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. I was safe until tliis happened, and then he per- 
suaded me to sign a statement 

Mr. MosER. Too many customers ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Wlien your customers would go away, would the same 
ones come back, or would there sometimes be different ones ? 

The Witness. The same ones would always come back, and my 
policy was never to deal with anybody else, unless I had seen them 
around enough to know that they were not connected with the official 
police. 

Mr. MosER. You didn't have to look for customers ? 

The Witness. Not this way, the way I was dealing, you did not. 

Mr. MosER. You never had to persuade anybody to start. 

The Witness. The average j^erson gets caught by being curious, or 
by having a friend fooling with it. I have had several admit that 
everybody they hung around was an addict, or some say, "I wanted 
to know what it was all about." 

Mr. MosER. Tell us a little bit about the sources of supply. You 
don't have to identify them, if you don't want to, but we would like to 
know what the system is. 

You would have a connection who would go to Washington and 
get it. Did you ever go to Washington and get it youi*self ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you go with your connection ? 

The Witness. I tell you, when Johnson got picked up, he got 
picked up with 20 caps in his pocket. I told him about carrying 
stuff on him. He had a little bottle that he kept the 20 caps in. I 
said, "You should not carry it." He said, "I am going home, and I 
want some with me, because somebody might want to have it, and they 
might come to the house for it." 

I left him one minute, and 5 minutes later, the next thing I knew 
they got him. Somebody had informed on him. 

The word got around by the time they got him, that they told who 
had informed on him. I knew they knew about it, and that was the 
reason that I was cautious, because I knew whoever told on him had to 
tell that we were associated together. 

So they grabbed him with the 20 caps in his pocket. We got him 
out on bail tlien, and that is the first time he introduced me to the 
guy, so that the guy would know me when he seen me again. 

Mr. MosER. Johnson had been getting it? 

The Witness. He had been at it quite a while. 

Mr. MosER. And you were getting it through his connection ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. So when he went to jail, did you put up the bail for 
him ? 

The Witness. You see, it being our bag, it was our money. 

Mr. MosER. It was put up out of the bag ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. After he had been in jail, he put you in touch with his 
connection? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. Then that connection supplied it to you ? 

The Witness. That is right. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COiVIMERCE 47 

Mr. MosER. Did you get it from any other connections besides that 
one? 

The Witness. Well, yes. In fact, I was at the time trying two 
or three people, I was trying to get in with somebody where I could 
get it cheaper, instead of paying the go-between money, or even get 
it in bulk form, like an ounce or two ounces at a time, and then you 
make more money. 

Of course, they told me that an ounce would be from $200 to $250, 
for good stuff. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever get any ? 

The Witness. Just that one time I told you, I went on that trip 
to New York. 

Mr. MosER. You and he went to New York ? 

The Witness. No ; I stayed in Baltimore and he went to New York. 

Mr, MosER. He brought an ounce back ? 

The Witness. An ounce and a half. 

Mr. MosER. Did you cut it? 

The Witness. I think it was already cut. 

Mr. MosER. Did you put it in capsules then ? 

The Witness. Yes, I capsuled it up, him and I together. 

Mr. MosER. And you did not cut it ? 

The Witness. No; because when he goes to get it, when you get 
the stuif, you don't get it just then, you try to see if it is good, so he 
tried it to see if it was good. 

Mr. MosER. He tried it? 

The Witness. He was the official tryer, and when he got arrested, 
another boy come to me; he was tired of doing the way he was doing, 
and he Avanted to work for me. I didn't have confidence in him at 
first, but I gave him a chance a couple of time, and he went away, 
and I waited for him, and he brought the money back. 

He knew a lot about drugs, so I had to use him for a tester. 

Mr. MosER. You call him a tester ? 

The Witness. Yes. So you wouldn't be throwing out your money, 
because somebody is always on the lookout to take you for your money. 

Mr. MosER. Let us come back to the subject of the connections that 
you had. Johnson left, and then you had to have a direct connection 
yourself? 

The AViTNESS. With the go-between, yes. 

Mr. MosER. With the go-between? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever actually get it straight yourself without 
going througli the ffo-between ? 

The Witness. Well, no; I never got it straight, you see, because if 
a person don't know you intimately they won't do any business with 
you, and I always have to have a go-between. I had several offers of 
connections that was going to take me to New York and different 
places. • 

Mr. Moser. They never did ? 

The Witness. One guy was supposed to show up, but he got ar- 
rested. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever go with your go-between to Washington ? 

The Witness. You understand, the go-between is already in Wash- 
ington. 



48 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. Oh, you go to him to get it ? 

The Witness. You go to liis house. You pay your money out in 
front. In other words, you count the money out, and he figures up 
wliat you are going to get for that money, and he takes the money, but 
takes a cab, whatever way he is going, and he goes away and gets it 
and he brings it to you at his house. 

Mr. MosER. You don't kuow where he goes ? 

The Witness. I don't know where he goes. I tell you what one 
fellow did. He wanted to try to eliminate that quarter — you see, the 
man that goes between gets $1, but he charges $1.25, and he gets the 
extra 25 cents for himself. So, this other fellow wanted to eliminate 
him, and he trailed him, he had one guy wait ouside, and he sent one 
fellow in and trailed the felloAv to see where he was going. They 
found out where he went. Then he tried going there himself, and 
he approached the man himself, and the man wouldn't sell him nothing. 
Then the man moves out the next day. 

The Chairman. Well, Junior, the go-between, did he ever make 
suggestions to you as to whether you could increase your sales ? Was 
he interested in trying to get you to get as much as you could ? 

The Witness. No. The man was satisfied. He had me and he had 
someone else. In this business the less people you deal with, the better 
it is. He said that, so long as I was picking up a certain amount, he 
could always depend on me; and the other fellow, he was satisfied. 

He made me promise — if I kept dealing with him, he said he would 
see that I would get a better break in the long run. Of course, I never 
got that break. It didn't last that long. 

The Chairman. Did you try to increase your sales yourself in addi- 
tion to dealing with your friends ? 

The Witness. I mean, if you can understand, there is not many 
around the neighborhood you don't know ; that is all you need to know 
anyway. 

The Chairman. You don't have to look for new customers ? 

The Witness. You don't have to look for new customers. 

Mr. INIosER. Yonr connection is with colored men? 

The Witness. Yes ; they was colored men. 

Mr. MosER. You don't know much outside of colored people. You 
didn't have any customers who were white; did you ? 

The Witness. No ; I didn't. 

Mr. MosER. So far as you know, the connections were all colored? 

The Witness. They were all colored. 

Mr. MosER. I suppose the white people deal through white con- 
nections? 

The Witness. Well, now. I have seen some. I wasn't on speaking 
terms with them, but I have seen one fellow that wanted to try to 
set me up with a sale. He was on bail, and he run. he ran off, and I 
have seen that he was operating on Pearl Street. He used to have a 
couple of cab drivers that Ife used to deal with. 

The Chairman. Was he white? 

The Witness. They were addicts also. Yes; I have seen them 
come in a couple of times. 

Mr. MosER. You don't know about any suppliers except your own 
connections ; do you ? 

The Witness. No. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 49 

Mr. :Moser. There is no talk about who the other connections are, 
except that the fellows try to take you to the others, but they never 
get around to doing it? 

The Witness. You see, in other words, if he ever introduced me 
to his connection, then he eliminates himself. He doesn't get any- 
thing; do you understand? 

Mr. MosER. Yes. Now, when Johnson was arrested, you knew the 
heat was on you ; didn't you ? 

The Witness. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. MosER. Did you lie low or did you just become more careful? 

The Witness. Well, I tell you, the way I had it figured out, I 
mean, it would have been pretty safe, unless they tricked me in some 
other kind of way. 

I had a system where I would go in my house, and the onliest 
reason I was dealing from my house was that it was so cold, and I 
couldn't stand on the corner, or you couldn't get anybody to stand on 
the corner for you. 

A¥hen they come to my door, I never kept anything in my house 
or yard, but' I had a system where I left by the back door, and there 
are no fences or nothing in the back, and I would walk up a block, 
and I got another house, and I would go in with some friends of mine 
who would keep it for me. These people were unapproachable, 
nobody would ever think of them as doing anything like that. 

Mr. MosER. Did you have to pay them to do it? 

The Witness. I was going with the daughter, and the daughter 
and I were real tight, and I used to give her five, or any favor she 
wanted from me she would get, and she had a little kid, and I would 
do all the favors for the family, and the family liked me. 

With that set-up, that was pretty good. I never had money that I 
received from anybody. I would always get the money first, and 
that way, I figured I would be pretty safe. 

Mr. MosER. Did you adopt that system after the heat got on ? 

The Witness. I had that system from the start. When I first 
started I said, "I know how to be careful." Just as soon as we got 
started, I heard about what they would do to you. So, I figured if I 
didn't have anything, they never could catch me: see? 

So, if you are unprepared, there was two policemen who would 
come — you see, my friend Johnson he was going with a young girl , a 
friend of his sister's, and she was giving him money, but he never 
wanted to take no time with her. He just wanted to see her, get the 
money and talk to her. He would talk in any kind of way, and one 
riight she said, "Ed, I want to see you." 

He said, "What you want, girl ?"" 

She said, "I want to talk to you a few minutes." 

He said, "I ain't got time." 

He was getting ready to take a kid to the movies. I said, "You 
had better be careful the way you handle that girl. You can't take her 
money and keep talking to her like that." 

He'said, "Don't think anything about it." Just like that. 

That same night I am in the house, I was talking to the girl that 
I had, just the girl and I was in the house that same night, and 
somebody rapped on the door and I said, "Who is it?" They said, 
*'The police." 



50 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Now, I tlioiiglit it was one of the ^iiys trying to kid me, so I pulled 
open the door and I said, "Come on right in." 

Sure enough it was two policemen in uniform. One fellow comes 
in and he starts looking around and I said, "If you tell me what you 
are looking for, perhaps I can help you." 

He said, "Would you really help me if you knew what I was look- 
ing for ?" So, he kept on searching and finally worked his way around 
upstairs. He goes to search the girl to see if there is anything there, 
and she says, "Don't search me. If there is anything in my pocket you 
want, I will give it to you." 

So, he goes around searching. He is picking up bottles and every- 
thing on the shelf, and I said, "Officer, if you will tell me what you are 
looking for, maybe I can help you." 

He said, "Dope; that is what I am looking for; dope." 

I said, "Oh, no, sir; there is nothing like that here." 

He said, "That ain't the way I heard of it. I know it is in one of 
these two rooms ; see ?" 

So, when he kept hollering he knows it is in one of the two rooms. 
I kept following him to see that he wouldn't plant anything. He 
keeps looking, and I am right behind this one 

The Chairman. Junior, we cannot go into all of this. 

The Witness. So, they didn't find anything and they went on. 

]Vli\ MosER. You think the girl found out — do you think it was the 
girl who told ? 

The Witness. I found out that she did tell. She sent the police 
up, and if I was unprepared I would have been caught. 

Mr. MosER. Let me ask you some questions. You told us a lot of 
things about your connections, and so forth, and you have not identi- 
fied them, and we are not asking you to. 

Would you at all be interested in helping us to try to persuade peo- 
ple that that dope is a terrible thing and they ought not to go near it l 

The Witness. I mean, in what way could I help ? 

Mr. MosER. We haven't decided yet, but we are thinking of the 
possibility of putting on a movie or a television show, or something, 
and having some fellows who are dope addicts get up and tell princi- 
pally the kids of the country that they should never start, and per- 
haps we could use a fellow like you to tell them that they should not 
start, too. 

Now, would you get in any trouble if you did that? Would you be 
emijarrassed to have everybody know that you are in jail, that you 
peddled dope, and so forth ? You have been very frank with us. 

The Witness. Yes ; I have been frank. 

Mr. MosER. Of course, you cannot go to jail again for being a 
peddler, because you are already in. 

The Witness. I understand that. 

Mr. MosER. What would your attitude be? Would you be em- 
barrassed ? 

The Witness. Frankly, I would. A lot of people knows me and 
think quite a bit of me. 

Mr. Moser. You would not want them to know you are in for this? 

The Witness. It is not a nice thing to be in for. 

Mr. Moser. No ; I know. 

The Chairman. Even if your name was not used ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 51 

The Witness. But it is still my face. 

The Chairman. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. Well, you don't have to decide right now. Just think 
about it. 

The Witness. I can think about it. I think in your investigation, 
I mean, you have got a squad in Baltimore that is in it just as thick 
as anybody you ^yant. 

Mr. MosER. The police, you mean? 

The Witness. The main squad, the three officers, Carroll, Monowo- 
ski, and Jake. Those three are in it just as deep as anything. 

The Chairman. Have they been giving protection ? 

The AVitnesS. To some, the ones they want to operate, and some 
they take the stuff away and give to the men they want to sell it. 
One guy that he was doing business with 

Mr. Moser. What are their names? 

The Witness. Sergeant Carroll and Monowoski and Jake, Officer 
Jake, Jacob Simonson, I think it is. They were the original squad ; 
they had it first. And they are in it up to their necks. 

Mr. Moser. How do you know they are ? 

The Witness. They have accepted money from me. There is one 
guy I know was operating with their sanction, and I have been in 
places where they sent word down to clear out, because they are coming 
to make a raid ; that is, when it is the guy that is all right with them 
and this guy, they still put him up, and I tried to get him to say 
something to them, and he said, "I will do bigger business when I get 
out. I am not going to say anything." 

He gives them $60 a week and he gives them $150 for a Christmas 
present, and they was at his house. 

Mr. Moser . $60 a week he gives to the three ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Has he told you ? 

The Witness. I know they are crooked from personal experience 
mostly, because I know last year, after trying to send me to jail, I 
had to meet them and talk to them, and I give them $50 to bring back 
what they took out of the house. This year they couldn't catch me, 
so they went out and placed some in the yard and then found it. 
If the judge had known anything about heroin, he would know that 
you could not keep it on a rock wrapped in a piece of Kleenex tissue 
in the wintertime on the ground. 

Mr, Moser. You think these fellows planted it ? 

The Witness. I know they did. They even asked them at the 
court, "Did you take Williams to the yard to pick it up?" He 
said, "No, sir; but I was with Officer Monowoski when he picked it 
up." 

Mr. Moser. Well, do you think if you had paid them some 
money 

The Witness. I will tell you what happened to me. I got on the 
wrong side of them. I talked too smart for them, or something, be- 
cause he said, "Wlien we catch the son-of-bitch hollering for his 
rights, we know we got him." 

He just wanted me. He made it known that my money was no good 
to him. 



52 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Would you be willing to tell the name of the other 
fellow who said that he was going to deal m a bigger way when he 
got out ? 

The Witness. Well, I could tell you, but he wouldn't admit it. 
Ever since the first time he talked to me 

Mr. MosER. Is he here? 

The Wi^rNESS. Yes; I tell you how he got here. He has so much 
confidence in them, he said, they come to his house one morning, one 
of them was high, and he had a rough night the night before, and 
he asked for something cold to drink, and his old lady gave him some 
juice, and he said that the wife wanted to take a picture of them and 
he says "Oh, no ; that is all right." 

So when he said "picture" I jumped on him, and I asked him if 
he had that picture and he said "No." 

He said that they was all right ; they told him to lay off when the 
drive came on, and he left town, but he called back up again; he 
called one of them personally, and he told them that his mother was 
sick and he needed to make something, could he come back and oper- 
ate. The fellows said, "Don't come back here ; we'll throw all of you 
junkers and sellers in jail." 

He don't use the stuff, and he came back and tried to operate, and 
then they got him. 

The Chairman. You said you wouldn't mind telling us who he 
was. 

The Witness. I wouldn't mind telling you, but I know he is not 
going to admit anything. 

Mr. MosER. Do you suppose he would be sore if he knew you told 
us? 

The Witness. I imagine he would. 

Mr. Moser. Wliat would he do ? 

The Witness. He is the type of guy who would do anything for 
freedom; he would do anything to get out of here, because he can- 
not stand the idea that he has been paying off for a year. He keeps 
sayilig, "I paid them off and now they cross me up; they've been 
taking all my money and they still send me to jail." 

But still he is a tough customer, unless it is something to his advan- 
tage. He plays everything to his advantage. He wants everything 
out of it. 

Mr. Moser. If we should ask him questions that made it obvious to 
him that we knew that he had been paying these officers would he blame 
you for it ? 

The Witness. I don't know whether he would or not. He has 
talked to me. We have talked in the yard. 

Mr. Moser. Are you the only one he told ? 

The Witness. No, he told it when we take recreation up here. In 
fact, all these guys that come in here know what is going on. They 
make up their mind they will only tell you so much. They claim they 
aren't getting anything out of it, and you are not going to help us, you 
are not going to get any freedom, so they make up their mind they 
won't tell you much. 

Mr. Moser. What is his name ? 

The Witness. Elmer Thomas. He is doing 3 years. 

The Chairman. From Baltimore? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 53 

The Witness. Yes, sir, from Baltimore. He had big set-up. He 
ran a big skidge off of Pennsylvania Avenue and he had a big car out 
there. He is worth a little money and he just ran — in fact, when my 
friend first got locked up I went to see him, because I knew his stand- 
ing with these officers, to see if he could do anything to help. He said 
no, there was nothing he could do. 

Mr. MosER. Well, Junior, we have covered everything, I guess. You 
might think a little bit about whether or not you want to help us tell 
people how bad it is. If your face were shown and not your name 
given, maybe that would help. Don't most of your friends know 
why you are here ? 

The Witness. Well, quite a few around my way. In fact, most of 
them is in sympathy with me because of the way I got here. 

Mr. MosER. The way what ? 

The Witness. In fact, most of my neighbors think a lot of me and 
they are in sympathy with me in the way it happened. 

Mr. MosER. Anyway, they know you were handling drugs ? 

The Witness. They know that. 

Mr. Hepburn. Have you known of any addicts who were peddlers 
who have deliberately gone to Lexington and other places to take the 
cure so that they could get the names of new customers or new contacts 
and connections ? 

The W^iTNEss. No, sir. 

Mr. Hepburn. Isn't that something that is done ? 

The Witness. No, I have never heard of anything like that. Go 
there to get connections? The addicts I know want to go there just 
because it is an easier way out. That is all I know they go there for. 

I mean, there is no one too interested, as I know of, that I have asso- 
ciated with, is too interested in new customers. There is so many if 
you have anything worth while to offer. 

Mr. Hepburn. The word gets around fast? 

The Witness. Yes, if you've got something good, see, they say, 
"He has got some good stuff, and one cap takes care of you." 

Mr. MosER. All right. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Thank you a lot. 

We will now recess until 2 o'clock. 

(Whereupon, at 12 : 45 o'clock, the committee adjourned, to recon- 
vene at 2 p. m., this same day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

The Chairman. All right, the committee will be in order. 

Good afternoon, Joe. I am Senator O'Conor, and these other mem- 
bers, or these other men are members of the staff, and we just wanted 
to talk to you about the situation, not to get you into any trouble or 
make any case against you. You understand ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. But just to have you help us, if you will. Are you 
satisfied to do that? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please. In the 
presence of Almighty God, do you swear that the evidence you are 



54 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth? 
The Witness, I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MR. , DEUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. Sit down and make yourself comfortable. You 
are clear as to just what our purpose is, aren't you ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you think you understand ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Tlie Chairman. We are not trying to develop any case or work up 
any case against you or anybody else particularly, but just to ask you 
to tell us some of the information generally about it. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Are you satisfied to do that ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Your name is . 

The Witness. . 

The Chairman. Where do you live? 

The Witness. 71H Josephine Street. 

The Chairman. Out in the western section? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Is that out near Green ? 

The Witness. The next square. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived up there? 

The Witness. Around 4 years. 

The Chairman. What is your nickname? 

The Witness. I haven't got any. 

The Chairman. What do the boys call you, Joe? 

Tlifi Witness. Joe. 

The Chairman. Joe, how old are you ? 

The Witness. Twenty-two. 

The Chairman. Do you have any brothers and sisters? 

The Witness. Five brothers and six sisters. 

The Chairman. My, a big family. Father and mother living ? 

The Witness. Mother living, father dead. 

The Chairman. Now, this gentleman is Mr. Moser, our chief coun- 
sel, and we just want to talk with you and have you tell us some things, 
if you will, just on a friendly basis, and without any desire to have 
you involved in any way at all, so you understand? Would you be 
willing to help us ? 

The Witness. I will tell you all I can. 

The Chairman. Good. That is all we ask. All right, Mr. Moser. 

Mr. MosER. Now, Joe, we don't want to do anything except get 
information which we think will help find a solution to the drug 
problem. 

We are trying to find some way of keeping youngsters from start- 
ing in on it. Usually when they start in they don't get off, and that 
is the reason we want you to help us. You are someone who has 
started in fairly young, very young. You started on reefers? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. As I understand it, you were quite voung when you 
did that? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 55 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MoSER. How old were you when that happened ? 

The Witness. Around 18. 

Mr. Moser. Weren't you younger than that ? Were you in school 
at the time^ 

The Witness. Xo, sir. 

]Mr. Moser. When did you leave school ? 

The Witness. I don't know to be exact, when I left school. 

Mr. ^Ioser. Do 3^011 remember how old you were ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. ]MosER. Do you remember what grade it was? 

The Witness. Tenth grade. 

Mr. ]MosER. Tenth graded 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Ml". ]\I()SER. Tliat is the second year in high school ? 

The Witness. I don't know. They called it high school. 

]Mi". ^NIosER. Did you ever see kids smoking reefers in school ? 

The Witness. Xo, sir. I went to school in the South. 

Mr. Moser. In what State ? 

Th Witness. South Carolina. 

Mr. ]\Ioser. And they don't have any reefers in school down there? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Tliey don't allow them ? 

The Witness. Thev don't have no drugs down there at all. 

Mr. :\r()SER. Oh, tliey don't \ 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Is that true of heroin, too? 

The Witness. Of everything. I never seen any. 

Mr. Moser. Is that so ? Do you know why that is ? 

The Witness. Nobody ever introduced it to them, I guess. 

Mr. Moser. Where Avere you when you started on reefers, up here? 

The Witness. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Moser. In Baltimore? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Why did you do it, just for the fun of it? 

The Witness. I did it to see what it was ; I was curious. 

Mr. ]\IosER. How long did you stay on reefers before you went to 
the drugs \ 

The Witness. I wouldn't know exactl3^ 

Mr. Moser. I mean, maybe a year or a matter of weeks ? 

The Witness. I couldn't say. I smoked reefers for a while, just 
for tlie kick of it, and then I started using heroin to get a kick out 
of it. 

Mr. ^NIoser. What did reefers d^a to you, did they make you wild? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Just gave you a thrill \ 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You didn't do anything you shouldn't while you had 
reefers? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. jNIoser. How much did they cost? 

The Witness. Fifty cents each. 

Mr. Moser. They cost more now, don't they ? 



56 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Well, when you first started on heroin, did somebody 
suggest it to you, did they suggest that you try it ? 

The Witness. Well, I was around other fellows using it, so I was 
curious and I tried it. 

Mr. MosER. Did you sniff it at first? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Did you start right in with the needle ? 

The Witness. I did it the way they did it. They was using the 
needle, so I used it. 

Mr. MosER. You started right in on the main line? 

The Witness. I guess so. 

Mr. MosER. Where did you buy it ? You don't have to tell me who 
you bought it from, but I mean, did you buy it around the neighbor- 
hood? 

The Witness. Off the corner, Pennsylvania Avenue mostly, and 
Fremont Avenue. 

Mr. MosER. There would be somebody there ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MoSER. How would you know who to buy it from? 

The Witness. When I first started I didn't know. The fellows 
that I hung around with, they always bought it. 

Mr. MosER. When you first started in they gave it to you ? 

The Witness. No, they never gave it to me. I had to pay my own 
way. 

Mr. Moser. And they bought it and just supplied you with it, is 
that it? 

The Witness. They 

Mr. MosER. That is, they gave you a shot of theirs? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. They told you where to get it? 

The Witness. The way I first started, you see, I always loaned 
them money. 

Mr. Chairman. You loaned them money? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. So one day one fellow didn't have enough, 
so he told me that we would get some of that stuff and we would do it 
together, so I did. 

Mr. Moser. And you credited him with it? 

Tlie Witness. I didn't credit him with nothing. The first time 
it made me sick. 

Mr. MosER. Oh, you didn't like it ? 

The Witness. Not the first time. I wanted to try it again to see 
what feeling did they get out of it, so after a while I got getting the 
same feeling they did. 

Mr. MosER. Aiid then voii liked the feeling so you tried it again, is 
that it? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr, MosER. How often did you do it ? 

The Witness. About once a day, once a week, something like that. 
When I first started, just what they call for the joy, once a week, or 
once every 2 weeks. Then you keep on until, jou know, you are taking 
it not from the kick you get from it, but one morning you wake up 
with a backache, your back is aching and your legs are aching, and 
you don't feel right until you get some. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 57 

Mr. MosER. Then you have to have one until you feel better? 

The Witness. That is right. You don't get that same sensation 
you get when you first start it. 

Mr. MosER. That has gone ? 

The Witness. You just feel numb altogether, that is all. 

Mr. MosER. When you got to the peak of your habit, how often 
were you doing it ? How much was it costing you ? 

The Witness. I don't know exactly what it was costing me, to be 
frank with you, I wouldn't know. 

Mr. MosER. Do you know how many shots you were taking a week? 

The Witness. I was taking, sometimes I estimated it to be around 
14 or 15 capsules a day. 

Mr. MosER. Fourteen or fifteen a day? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Did they cost you $3 each ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Did they cost you a dollar each ? 

The Witness. Didn't cost that much. 

Mr, MosER. Oh ? How much did they cost you ? 

The Witness. I don't know. I bought mine, you know 

Mr. MosER. In a big package ? 

The Witness. I would buy enough to hold me for a long while. 

The Chairman. How much would a big package cost vou, Joe? 

The Witness. Sometimes you get it for $100, $150, or $200. 

Mr. MosER. That would be a big package. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Would they be in capsules ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. MosER. It would be powder ? 

The Witness. It is just the same thing, you just take it out of 
the package, and you put it in capsules, and for $3 a capsule you 
are getting cheated, that is the way I feel. 

Mr. MosER. But if you buy it in bulk it goes further ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. When you had it in bulk you didn't put it in capsules 
at all, I suppose, you just used it? 

The Witness. You just used it. 

Mr. MosER. When you wanted it ? 

The Witness. When you wanted it. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever help your friends out when they needed 
it sometimes? 

The Witness. Sometimes, those who helped me, I would help them. 
There is always a time they wanted somebody else to give them some. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever sell any of it ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Sometimes? 

The Witness. No. I wouldn't say I sold it. 

Mr. Moser. Well, anyway, you were not a peddler. 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Now, when you came in here, were you on the habit? 

The Witness. When I came in here ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You were ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 



58 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. Was it pretty hard getting off it ? 

The Witness. The way I figured, the way I see it, when you come 
into a place like this, you don't lose the habit. 

Mr. MosER. You say you don't need it '^ 

The Witness. No, you don't lose it, because 9 out of 10 come to 
a place like this, and they come back again. I mean, 9 out of 10 of 
them comes back. They don't get no cure here. 

Mr. Moser. You don't get any cure, you are just off it while you 
are here ? 

The Witness. You are just off it while you are here, because you 
can't get it. As soon as you get back on the street where you can get 
it, you will go get it, rather than drink whisky. 

Mr. Moser. Rather than drink whisky ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. Are you going back on it when you get out ? 

The Witness. I don't know. I AYOuldn't exactly say. I don't be- 
lieve I am. 

Mr. Moser. But you might. 

The Witness. I wouldn't say I wouldn't. 

Mr. Moser. Do you think it is a bad thing to be under? 

The Witness. I know it is. 

Mr. Moser. It is bad because it costs you so much ? 

The Witness. It is not that. It is just bad, because there are 
times when you cannot get it, and then too, I still got enough feeling, 
that if you get caught again, you know what you get, you know what 
you have to go through before you can bring yourself back to normal 
again. 

Mr. Moser. Is it pretty tough going back to normal ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You had to do that in jail, didn't you ? 

The Witness. The doctor over in jail, he gave me morphine once 
a day for a while. That helped. 

Mr. Moser. Now, has your wife been arrested for this, too? 

The Witness. She has. 

Mr. Moser. She was selling it, Avas she ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Where is she now? She is on probation, isn't she? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Where did you buy the stuff? I don't mean the 
particular man, but in what city ? 

The Witness. I bought most of mine in Washington, 

The Chairman. But you traveled over there to get it, or would you 
use it over there too ? 

The Witness. I would use it over there, too. 

The Chairman. Did you have any trouble finding out where in 
Washington to get it? 

The Witness. No, sir. Once a fellow knows you, it is not hard to 
get it, when he knows you are a user. 

The Chairman. Couldn't you get the same thing in Baltimore. 

The Witness. Sir? 

The Chairman. Couldn't you get the same thing in Baltimore ? 

The Witness. You could get it in Baltimore, but it cost too much. 

The Chairman. How much does it cost ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 59 

The Witness. Three dolhirs a capsule. If you go to Washington, 
3^ou can buy it like you want. 

Mr. MosicR. Either by the capsule or in bulk? 

The Witness. By the capsule or in bulk. 

Mr. MosER. Somebody would tell you where to get it or you would 
just find out for yourself? 

The Witness. If you go over there and you want something, you 
ask some fellow on a corner, you can spot him a mile away. 

Mr. MosER. How does he do that ? 

The Witness. Well, he just looks at a person and he tells whether 
he uses it or not. 

The Chairman. You can ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. What is the difference? How do you tell? Does he 
look sick? 

The Witness. He doesn't look sick. They look, you know, well, 
you can just tell them. 

Mr. Moser. I was asking you about your wife. How did she get on 
the habit? 

The Witness. She didn't have no habit. 

Mr. Moser. She didn't what ? 

The Witness. She didn't have no habit. 

Mr. Moser. She never had it ? 

The Witness. Xo; because when I went into the Army, I only 
stayed in 9 days, but when I came back she had started selling while 
I was gone. She got locked up for a little while. That is all I know 
about it. 

The only thing she told me was that she was selling it for somebody 
from Washington. 

Mr. Moser. She was going to Washington to get it and selling it? 

The Witness. No ; it was somebody coming over giving it to her, 
and she would sell it somehow. She explained. I didn't know per- 
sonally about it. 

]\Ir. Moser. You are in here for carrying a gun or something, aren't 
you ? 

The Witness. Now ? 

Mr. Moser. Yes. 

The Witness. No ; I am in here for possession of narcotics. 

Mr. Moser. Oh, possession of narcotics. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mv. Moser. Your record has some other convictions in it, hasn't it? 

The Witness. Carrying a knife. 

Mr. Moser. What? 

The Witness. I was convicted once for carrying a knife. 

Mr. Moser. Yes ; 30 days in jail for carrying a knife. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. That was back in 1947? 

Tlie Witness. Right. 

Mr. Most!?. Was that when you were on the habit ? Were you on 
the habit then? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. That was only 4 years ago. You must have been on the 
habit 4 j-ears ago. 



60 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. I ain't long on the habit. 

Mr. MosER. You mean you were just playing around with it then. 
Was there any connection between the habit and the carrying of a 
knife? 

The Witness. No, sir. That knife I had in my pocket, that knife 
didn't belong to me in the first place. I was coming from where I 
was a doorman, and I was going to return it to the fellow, everybody 
got their guns and knives and things, but a friend of mine left his 
knife, and he wanted to know whether I wanted it. When I was on 
the way from there, a policeman stopped me, and he searched me. 
That is all. 

Mr. MosER. You are in here for possession of drugs. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mose:r. And they found it in your home ? 

The AVitness. They framed me. 

Mr. MosEK. They what ? 

The Witness. They framed me. 

Mr. MosER. Oh ? You were in the Army, you say ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How long ago did you get out ? 

The Witness. I only stayed 9 days. 

Mr. Moser. You were only in 9 days ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Recently ? 

The Witness. In 1950. 

Mr. Moser. 1950 ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You were inducted in September 1950 ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And you were let out because of your habit ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MoseU. Are you going to go back on the habit ? 

The Witness. I am going to try not to. 

Mr. Moser. You are going to try not to, but you are not sure? 

The Witness. No ; I am not going back on the habit. I can stay 
off it. 

Mr. Moser. Now, if young kids at the age of — well, you were 
maybe 17 or 18 when you went on it, and do you think kids of that 
age, if they knew what it does to you, that they would ever start, 
or do you think they would anyhow ? 

The Witness. I believe they would. 

Mr. Moser. Just for the thrill of it ? 

The Witness. I don't know, around 17 and 18, they don't want 
experience, they just want to try something because they know some- 
body else that does something. They try it, and I have seen people 
try it when they were older. 

Mr. Moser. If they knew it was going to cost a lot of money, and 
they knew they would be sick Avhen they were withdrawing, would 
they still go in, do you think? 

The Witness. I don't know, but I know a lot of them know they 
are going to be sick, but if they get the habit they will try it anyAvay. 

Mr. Moser. You were working when you started, weren't you? 

The Witness. I was. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 61 

Mr. MosER. Did you keep on working while you had the habit? 

The Witness. Yes ; I worked. 

Mr. ]\IosER. You earned enough money so that you could stay on? 

The WrrNEss. Not on my job, I didn't. 

Mr. MosEK. You say not on your job? 

The Witness. No, sir. I am a gambler. 

Mr. Moser. a what ? 

The Witness. A gambler. 

Mr. Moser. Oh, you were lucky at gambling? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And that supported your habit ? 

The Witness. JNIost of the time. All the money I made on the 
job I had to take home. 

]\Ir. Moser. So the only money you could use on your habit was the 
money you made gambling ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. Well, now, were you still working at a good job when 
you got caught with this? 

The Witness. I was working, but I wouldn't call it a good job. 

Mr. Moser. Do you think that if you had not had the habit you 
could have had a better job i 

The Witness. I could have had a better job with the habit. I 
mean, that habit didn't hurt me a lot, because I always had enough, 
I always could get my hands on something. It never brought me 
down, I was never sick from it. 

The Chairman. Joe, using as you were up to 15 or 20 caps a 
day, if you were working regularly and ran out of them and didn't 
have enough money just at the time to get them, wouldn't you be in 
a pretty bad shape then ? 

The Witness. I don't think so. 

]Ntr. Moser. You mean you could have gotten along without them ? 

The Witness. I did once. I stopped once. 

Mr. Moser. You did? 

The Witness. Yes. 

]\Ir. Moser. For how long? 

The Witness. About, I would say, a year. 

Mr. Mcser. And was it pretty tough stopping? 

The Witness. When you are on the street you can stop. It seems 
thei'e is a lot of people use two or three capsules during the day, and 
all they have to do is go around where they sell morphine, and they 
don't put it in the main line. When you feel bad you take a little 
shot of that. » 

Mr. MosER. You take a shot of morphine, you mean in the mouth? 

The Witness. No ; in the arm. 

Mr. Moser. A skin shot? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And then you taper off? 

The Witness. That is right, and you limit the time for a while, 
you don't use as much tomorrow as you did yesterday, and the next 
day you use less, and soon you don't need it. 

Mr. Moser. So you are cured, you cured yourself ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. I think we have covered everything. 

8o277 — 51— pt. 14 5 



62 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Yes. Is there anything else you could think of to 
tell us ? Anything that you think would be of interest along this line? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

The Chairman. All right, much obliged. 

Good afternoon, Walter. My name is Senator O'Conor, and these 
men are with me from the Senate to just talk with you. We are not 
trying to get anything against you, but we just want to talk with you 
about the wdiole situation. Would you be willing just to talk to us 
for a while ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear 
that the evidence you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth ? 

The Witness. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MR. , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. Now, just sit down and make yourself comfortable, 
Walter. 

We are not here to make out any case against you or to get you in 
any trouble at all. We just want to talk with you, if you wall, to help 
us, to give us some information if you can. We are not concerned 
about naming anybody or anything of that kind. 

What is your full name ? 

The Witness. . 

The Chairman. Where do you live? 

The Witness. Vine Street. 

The Chairman. Up in the west end of Baltimore 1 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived there? 

The Witness. All my life. 

The Chairman. How old are you ? 

The Witness. Twenty-one. 

The Chairman. And who do you live there with ? 

The Witness. My mother and father. 

The Chairman. Do you have any brothers and sisters? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. And do they live there, too ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. What kind of work do you do ? 

The Witness. I was working for the United Fruit Co. 

The Chairman. Had you been there very long? 

The Witness. I had been there about a month or 2 months. 

The Chairman. What kind of work did you do before then? 

The Witness. Well, I was in the Lord Baltimore Hotel. 

The Chairman. What were you doing there ? 

The Witness. I was a bus boy. 

The Chairman. I may liave seen you down there. 

The Witness. I wouldn't doubt it. 

The Chairman. Now, Walter, Mr. Moser here wants to ask some 
questions of you. He is chief counsel and you can be absolutely free 
and tliere will be no question of any trouble with you or anything of 
that kind. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 63 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Will you be able to help us all you can ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; all I can. 

The Chairman. All ri^ht, Mr. Moser. 

Mr. MosER. Walter, you had the drug habit when you came in here? 

The AViTNEss. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Have you ever had it ? 

The Witness. Never had the habit. 

Mr. Moser. You never had the habit ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. But you have used it ? 

The Witness. I have used it several times. 

Mr. IMosER. Did you ever use reefers ? 

The Witness. No, sir. I don't smoke reefers, 

Mr. Moser. Never did at all ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Do you have a lot of friends who do ? 

The Witness. Oh, fellows used to use it. 

Mr. Moser. But you never tried it yourself? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. When did you use drugs ? Just tell us when you started 
and how it came about. How did you happen to do it ? 

The Witness. A fellow I knew had some stuff, and I asked him for 
a taste of it, and he gave me a half cap. 

Mr. Moser. He gave you a half cap ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. In the arm '( 

The Witness. No; I snorted it. 

Mr. Moser. You snorted it ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Did you like it ? 

The Witness. I mean, it was all right. 

Mr. Moser. It gave you kind of a thrill ? 

The Witness. I don't know, it wasn't all they said what it should be. 

Mr. Moser. Was fairly good but not too good ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you try it again after that? 

The Witness. I tried it one or two times after that. 

Mr. Moser. Sniffing? 

The Witness. No ; the needle. 

Mr. Moser. Main line or skin shots? 

The Witness. Main line. 

Mr. Moser. Eight away ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Did somebody ofive it to you or did you do it yourself? 

The Witness. Did it myself. 

Mr. Moser. You started right in ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. That felt better? 

The Witness. That felt better than snorting. 

Mr. Moser. How often did you do that ? 

The Witness. I didn't do it often. I did it about once, maybe 
once a day. 



64 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTE.IISTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. Just for the feeling ? 

The Witness. Just for the joy. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever get to the point where you had to have it ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. jf ou never did ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Well, when you had the shot did it make you feel 
courageous or brave ? 

The Witness. It made you feel better than you were feeling before. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever go without it for a long period ? 

The Witness. Oli, yes ; I went without it for 2 or 3 weeks. 

Mr. Moser. Then you just tried it again? 

The Witness. Just tried it again. I didn't have no habit, though. 

Mr. Moser. You never got hooked ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You are in here for larceny, aren't you 'i 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. I don't want to ask you whether you actually committed 
it or not. Are you here for burglary or larceny ? 

The Witness. Larceny, charge of receiving stolen goods. 

Mr. MosER. You have got a record, of course. In 1945 for larceny. 
In 1946 you were arrested for larceny, but found not guilty. In 1948 
jou were arrested for disturbing the peace and got 12 days, and in 
1948 burglary, 3 years. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Did you serve that? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. The whole 3 years? 

The Witness. The whole 3 years. 

Mr. Moser. That w^asn't long ago. You got out in February ? 

The Witness. No, I got out July of last year. 

Mr. Moser. July of 1950 ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You did not serve the whole 3 years then ? 

The Witness. 30 months. 

The Chairman. You got time off for good behavior ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ]Nf oser. You are in for larceny ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. That is quite a lot of trouble to be in. We want to 
know whether or not that trouble you have been in has been caused 
at all by a drug. 

The Witness. Oh, no. 

Mr. JSIoser. Do you ever do these things when you are hopped up? 

The Witness. I just started messing with drugs when I came from 
the reformatory last year. 

Mr. Moser. Did you get the idea while you were in the reformatory ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. JSIoser. No connection between the two ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. There was no connection between the fact you took 
• the drug and the fact you did these things ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 65 

The Witness. I heard boys talking about it all the time, so I tried 
it to see. 

Mr. MosER. Where? 

The Witness. At the reform school. 

Mr. MosER. A lot were talking about it ? 

The Witness. Some of them was up there for it. 

Mr. Moser. Wlien you got back you thought you would try it 
youi-self ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. They said it was so good, so I thought I 
would try it myself. 

Mr. Moser. Where did you buy it ? Don't tell us the name of the 
people, just where generally did you get it? 

The Witness. I used to go around. 

Mr. Moser. You would buy it on the street comer ? 

The Witness. No, sir — on the street corner ? 

Mr. Moser. Yes. 

The Witness. Yes, I would buy it on the street corner. 

Mr. Moser. You would just buy it from somebody who was ped- 
dling it? 

The Witness. I don't know whether they was peddling or not. 
Most of the time I wouldn't buy it. 

Mr. Moser, Most of the time people gave it to you ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You were with people ? 

The Witness. Like somebody buys two or three caps, they may 
give me one or a half one, something like that. 

Mr. MosER. Did you pay them for it? 

The Witness. They would give it to me. 

Mr. Moser. Just as a present? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. You never had to find anybody to supply you ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. I don't think there is any more information we want 
from him, do you? 

The Chairman. You didn't have much trouble in finding out where 
to get it, did you ? 

The Witness. In finding out where to get it ? 

The Chairman. Yes, to locate somebody who had some. 

The Witness. I didn't have very much trouble finding them. 

Mr. Moser. They were usually people you knew, weren't they ? 

The Witness. All I knew was one boy, he would get it somewhere. 
I don't know how he was getting it, or who he was getting it from. 

Mr. Moser. I think that is all. 

The Chairman. That is all, Walter. Thank you. That is fine. 

Good afternoon, Elmer. Elmer, will you raise your right hand, 
please? 

In tlie presence of the Almighty God, do you swear that the testi- 
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and 
nothing but the truth? 

The Witness. I do. 



66 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

TESTIMONY OF MR. , DRUG ADDICT 



The Chairman. Your name is 



My name is Senator O'Conor, and these other men are with me 
from the Senate. We wanted to talk with you about the whole situa- 
tion, not to involve you in anything. 

Are you willing to talk to us ? 

The Witness. So far as I know there is nothing I know. 

The Chairman. All right. Won't you sit down, Elmer, and be 
comfortable. 

Where do you live, Elmer? 

The Witness. I live on West Biddle. 

The Chairman. Up near Market? 

The Witness. This is between Druid Hill and McCullough. 

The Chairman. That is in the 400 block up there? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived up there? 

The Witness. I have been there about 2 years. 

The Chairman. Where did you live before that? 

The Witness. North Calhoun Street. 

The Chairman. You always lived in Baltimore ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. What age are you ? 

The Witness. Thirty-four. 

The Chairman. Do you have a family ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. What family do you have? 

The Witness. Wife and kid and mother. 

The Chairman, This is Mr. Moser, he is from the Senate commit- 
tee. He is counsel, and he wants to ask you questions. Nothing con- 
cerning you. You will help us all you can, won't you ? 

The Witness. So far as I know, there is nothing I know. 

The officer stopped me one night at Druid Hill and Biddle Street, 
so that he says to me, "We are going to search this car and search 
you." I says, "For what?" They said, "For dope." 

And I said, "Fine." So I says, "Officer, there is nothing in this car, 
and there is nothing on me, so far as dope, the only way it can be in 
here is if you put it in here." 

Mr. MosER. Do you mind if I interrupt you? You don't have to 
worry about telling us why you are here. 

The Witness. I want to tell you, just about like it is. 

Mr. MosER. Well, we are not here to try to find out about your par- 
ticular case. So far as we are concerned, we don't care whether you 
are guilty or innocent. We are trying to find out something about the 
drug business, what causes it, and what brings it about, and we are 
trying to figure out ways of stopping it, and principally to fix it so 
that the young kids won't start in. 

The Witness. Well, they went on to the apartment house 

Mr. MosER. You still want to tell us about that? 

The Witness. They went on the second floor of the apartment house 
and found some drugs up there in the bathroom. They searched 
me, my car, my home, and where I lived, and couldn't find nothing, 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COJVIMERCE 67 

and they went on the second floor and found some stuff there and 
claimed it was mine. 

The Chairman. Did you ever handle any of it at all ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you use it? 

The Witness. I don't even know heroin. 

The Chairman. You never used it? 

The Witness. No, sir. I just come from psychology up there, never 
in my life. I am here 3 years. I wish there is some way I can get out. 
That is the God's honest truth. If I can do anything to help out, 
I would. The only thing I know is I had a little reefer at different 
times. 

The Chairman. How long were you in the Army? 

The Witness. I was in the Army -1:9 days. 

The Chairman. You were discharged on a medical discharge? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; ulcers. 

The Chairman. Ulcers? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Have you ever had any dealings with the police 
in Baltimore with regard to narcotics? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Do you know any of the men on the narcotics squad? 

The Witness. No, not personally, just to see them. 

The Chairman. Do you know Sergeant Carroll ? 

The Witness. I have seen him. He was sergeant. He was sergeant 
at one time? 

The Chairman. Do you know him? 

The Witness. No ; not personally, just to see him. 

Tlie Chairman. Did you ever talk to him? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. Did you pay the officers who worked with Ser- 
geant Carroll ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know Jake, Patrolman Jake, do you 
know who I mean ? 

The Witness. No ; I don't. 

The Chairman. You don't know who worked with Sergeant Car- 
roll? 

The Witness. No. I have seen them. But that is all. I was busy 
in the daytime, I had a little truck. 

The Chairman. But you never had any deals or talks with Sergeant 
Carroll at all? 

The Witness. No, sir. I am here doing 3 years and I wish to God 
I could get out. Sometime they are going to try to get me out of 
here, I hope to God. 

Mr. MosER. Well, I think that is all we can do with this man. 

The Chairman. All right. Much obliged. 

The Witness. All right. 

The Chairman. Well, that will be all that we will be able to do 
here today. The hearing is adjourned. 

(Whereupon, at 3 p. m., the hearing was adjourned.) 



68 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

(In addition to the data secured at the hearing held at the Mary- 
land House of Correction on May 29, 1951, the following inmates 
of the Maryland House of Correction were interviewed on behalf of 
the committee by Wallace Keidt, assistant counsel, and Lawrence 
Goddard of the staff of the committee on May 24 and May 25, 1951 :) 
The Witness— 65984 

Colored, age 22. Clark was arrested at the house of Joseph Jennings and 
was supposed to be a partner of Jennings in the sale of narcotics. He denied 
these allegations. He had, however, been under investigation in both Wash- 
ington and Baltimore. 

Clark was a war veteran and had served in the South Pacific with the Air 
Force. Claims to be a gambler and very lucky. He graduated from the Douglas 
High School and started using marijuana when he was 16 years of age. He 
has used practically every form of drug — cocaine, heroin, morphine. He uses 
a hypodermic and main lines it. He has had a vein collapse, but it is all right 
now. 

The Witness— 65542 

Colored, age 29, single. Inmate was found with 70 marijuana cigarettes in 
home. Claimed they had been given to him by John Slogan, a sailor. Has 
records of larceny, forgery, and violation of narcotics laws. Stopped school 
at third grade, but prison record shows his mental ability capable of taking 
more schooling. 

Started using 2 or 3 years ago. Claims he has only smoked marijuana and 
has never acquired the habit. He said he bought 70 reefers from a Spanish 
boy named Chico in a union hall in Baltimore. 

The Witness— 65768 

Colored, age 24, married. Claims he asked to be admitted to the Public Health 
Hospital at Lexington, Ky., several months ago. Has been employed as a 
truck driver. Has above average intelligence and completed seventh grade in 
school. Was caught with 18 caps. Has used heroin for about 2 years. Used 
about 10 caps a day when brought to prison. Claims he paid about $2 a capsule 
and was "lucky at gambling," which was his means of buying sufficient amounts. 
He claims he got most of his stuff from Washington. 

The Witness— 65663 

A colored youth, age 25, single. Was arrested previously on a charge of larceny 
and had been suspected of dealing in drugs. Says that he secured and sold 
two capsules of heroin to a man who was sick. 

Neal completed the ninth grade at school and attended the GI school in fine 
and commercial arts. He is disappointed because he has not received any 
treatment for addiction at the institute. 

The Witness— 65839 

White, age 23, married but divorced. Inmate claims he was si)ending the 
night with Joseph Bona when the apartment in which Bona lived was raided. 
He asked to stay there because of relatives visiting his home and causing over- 
crowded conditions. Served a term at Lewisburg on a drug charge. He is a 
window designer. Saw action in Pacific on a mine sweeper during the war. 
Was attending a GI school of clothes designing at time of arrest. Milton 
Bloombaum (now in the Atlanta State Penitentiary) was the one from whom 
he had received his stuff when caught. 

The Witness— 65847 

Colored, age 30, married, but separated. Is a tailor's helper and was picked 
up while looking at a movie billing. He attempted to kick a box out of the police 
car which had 13 heroin capsules in it. Fini.shed seventh grade in school. Has 
a long record of robbery, auto theft, and narcotic violations. He is described on 
prison records as "a likeable Negro whose vicious habits have made him a social 
problem." Has been in prison about 2 months. Has stopped using drugs four 
or five times, but after a short time would get back on. He started at 20. 



ORGAXIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 69 

The Witness— 66058 

Colored, age 26. He was a male nurse who had been singing in a night club of 
Tu n rs Stat on in Daltimoie County. He purchased "reefers"' for a strange man 
who lurned out lo be a narcotic agent. He is a native of North Carolina, married, 
and has two children. Has previously been arrested for several minor charges. 
He is a war veteran. Was given a 6-month sentence by Judge Murray in Balti- 
more County. He claims not to be an addict. 

The Witness— 66057 

Colored musician. He is a native of Baltimore. Charged with selling six 
marijuana cigarettes. Pleaded guilty and was sentenced to G months in Mary- 
land House of Correction by Judge Murray in Baltimore County. He is 28 
years of age and married. No prior police record and was employed at Bethlehem 
Steel Co. Mother is in a mental hospital and he went to junior high school. 
Admits to having used "reefers." He denies using other drugs. He is a war 
veteran and served overseas. 

The Witness— 66059 

Colored, age 24, He is a seaman who was involved with McPherson, Haynes, 
and Welborn in the sale of "reefers," to a narcotics agent at Turners Station in 
Baltimore County. He also was given 6 months in the Maryland House of 
Correction. He is single, but the father of three illegitimate children by three 
different women in Baltimore. Has only a minor police record, is a war veteran 
and claims not to use drugs of any kind. 

The Witness— 66060 

Colored, age 25 of Turners Station, ai-rested with others in sale of "reefers" 
to narcotics agent. He is a native of Baltimore and was a nuisance at the Adams 
Cocktail Lounge at Turners Station. He was familiar with a group of young 
men, white and colored, who hung around the place and peddled drugs. Says he 
bought the "reefers" from Italian Joe, and sold them. He is a war veteran. 
Has no prior police record. Was given 6 months by Judge Murray. Claims not 
to be an addict. 

The Witness— 5162] 

Colored, age 28. He is a native of Baltimore. He is single. He has a police 
record for rape and assault. He was charged with selling "reefers," but denies 
this and claims he was framed. Claims not to be an addict. Was given a 
sentence of 18 months by Judge Sherbow in Baltimore City. Served in the 
United States Army for 1 year and received an honorable discharge. 

The Witness~658/,1 

White. He is a boxer. Was arrested on a charge of violating narcotic laws, 
sale of marijuana. Has a police record for assault, approximately 25 cases. 
He stated that he did not want to talk to anyone about his case or the traflSc. 

The Witness— 65697 

Colored, age 25. Single. Native of Baltimore, Md. Arrested violating nar- 
cotic laws. Served 2 years in Maryland House of Correction by Judge Sherbow. 
War veteran. Claims he was at an apartment when it was raided. Is an 
addict himself. Has only a minor police record. Does not have any knowledge 
of the drug traffic. 



INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CEIME IN INTERSTATE 
COMMERCE 



THUBSDAY, JUNE 7, 1951 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee To Invesitgate 
Organized Crime in Inte^rstate Commerce, 

Jesswps^ Md. 

EXECUTIVE SESSION 

The committee met, pursuant to call of the chairman, at 9 : 45 a. m., 
in the Maryland State Reformatory for Women, Jessups, Md., Sen- 
ator Herbert R. O'Conor (chairman) presiding. 

Present : Senator O'Conor. 

Also present: Richard G. Moser, chief counsel; James M. Hep- 
bron, administrative assistant ; Wallace Reidt and Rufus King, assist- 
ant counsel; and Dr. George F. Fitzgibbons, director of classifica- 
tion and education. Department of Correction, Maryland. 

The Chairman. The hearing is called to order. 

This meeting is held pursuant to a resolution passed unanimously 
by the Senate committee authorizing the chairman, the senior Senator 
from Maryland, to designate a member or members of the committee 
to serve as a subcommittee. Acting on that authority, the senior 
Senator from Maryland has been designated as a subcommittee of one 
to hold this meeting at the Maryland State Reformatory for Women. 

TESTIMONY OF MISS , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. I first want to say to you who we are and to ask you 
to be as free and as much at home and make yourself comfortable, be- 
cause we are not going to do anything to you that you do not want. 

First of all, would you have any objection to being sworn? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you swear, in the presence of Almighty God, 
that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth ? 

The Witness. I do. 

The Chairman. I want to repeat to you that we are not here to 
inquire or ask you anything about any offense that you are here for. 
We do not want you to feel that you are going to give any testimony 
against yourself that will hurt you, because we are not here to do 
anything that would hurt you. Do you understand ? 

The Witness, Yes, sir. 

71 



72 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. And we want yon to feel snre in yonr own mind and 
perfectly clear that we are not going to force yon to say anything or 
to ask you about anything that you do not want to talk about. We 
just want you to help us. Do you understand ? 

Tlie Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. So, if there is anything you do not want to talk 
about, you just tell us. We do not want you to feel that you are 
being forced to say anything that you do not want to say. We only 
want you to help us about other people. We do not want you to feel 
that you are saying anything that will come out to your disadvantage. 
Do you see what I mean ? 

The AViTNESs. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Would you tell us anything you know in regard to 
the matter of drugs, of narcotics, anything of that kind, so we may be 
able to help other people, especially young people ? 

First of all, you said you would be good enough to tell us, would 
you ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Let me ask you : You are just 20, aren't you ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Your birthday was just last April? 

The Witness. That is right. 

The Chairman. And you are just 20? How many brothers and 
sisters do you have? 

The Witness. I have three sisters and two brothers. 

The Chairman. I think you lived in northwest Baltimore ? 

The AVitness. That is right. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived up there ? 

The Witness. I was born on George Sti-eet. 

The Chairman. Have you lived almost all the time in Baltimore? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You, haven't been away from the city for any 
length of time ? 

The Witness. I go away on a vacation and come right back. 

The Chairman. Where have you gone for a vacation? 

The Witness. Salisbury, Md., Washington, and Philadelphia. 

The Chairman. Are your mother and father still living? 

The Witness. That is right. 

The Chairman. What we are interested in is about the question 
of drugs, and I wish you would tell us just what you know, for instance, 
as to your use of either marijuana or heroin or anything of that kind. 
Have you been using it very long ? 

The Witness. About 3 or 4 months. 

The Chairman. How did you start ? 

The Witness. I went to a friend's house, and they had it. I had 
never seen it before. I asked them what it was, and they told me. 
They asked me if I wanted to try it. I said "No." 

The next time I went up there they had it again. That time I 
tried it. I used it. 

The Chairman. Let me ask you : When you first used it, how did 
you use it ? Was it a reefer or just what did you do ? 

The Witness. The first time I used it, it was the reefer. 

The Chairman. How long ago was that? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 73 

The Witness. Around 13 years old. 

The Chairman. Were many of the boys and girls using it? That 
was about 8 years ago, 7 years ago ? 

The Witness. Yes. The ones I came in contact with were using it. 

The Chairman. Were these reefers hard to get? 

The Witness. No ; easy to get. 

The Chairman, Where and how? 

The Witness. Probably someone you knew used it would have it. 

The Chairman. And were there boys and girls of your age, 
around 13? 

The Witness. No ; I was the youngest. 

The Chairman. They were a little older than you were? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long did you keep on smoking the reefers? 

The Witness. I stopped a couple of years and then I just started 
back until last year when I began using heroin, and I stopped 
altogether. 

The Chairman. I would like to talk about the reefers first. Did 
they give you very much of a kick ? 

The Witness. No. It did not give me as much of a kick as the 
heroin. 

The Chairman. When you were using the reefers did you feel the 
need to use more and more of them? Did you start to form a habit 
for them ? 

The Witness. You do not form a habit from reefers. 

The Chairman. What was the situation with the other boys and 
girls? Was the same thing true with them ? You felt they could get 
off it if they wanted to ? 

The Witness. Yes, they could. 

The Chairman. What sort of a feeling did it give you? 

The Witness. When I smoked reefers, I thought people were talk- 
ing about me. I have a fear. If I walked in the street, I think some- 
body was behind me, or somebody was after me. That is what 1 felt 
when I smoked it. 

The Chairman. Did you feel like it gave you a lift at all or made 
you feel good? 

The Witness. No. It makes you feel something like when you 
are drinking. 

The Chairman. And when the effects wore off did you feel any way 
badly? 

The Witness. You kind of feel bad. 

The Chairman. After you first started to use it, did you increase 
from then on and maybe smoke more of them ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. It makes you eat a lot. 

The Chairman. And how much were you smoking a day? 

The Witness. About six or seven, something like that. 

The Chairman. Would there be times when you did not have them 
for a couple of days ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you feel the need of wanting more of them? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You felt it was not habit forming? 

The Witness. That is right. 



74 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. But nevertheless you did go back to smoking them 
from time to time ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long did you keep on using the reefers? For 
how long a time ? 

The Witness. Mostly on the week ends. 

The Chairman. And over what period of time? For a couple 
of years ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. When was it then that you first started on the 
heroin ? 

The Witness. Last year. 
The Chairman. About what time ? 

The Witness. About the time the warm weather was coming 
around. 

The Chairman. Just how did you come to use it ? 
The Witness. I went by some friend's house. I never seen it be- 
fore. I never heard talk of it before. While I was smoking reefers 
I never heard talk of it. So then I left the place and the next time 
I went by there they asked me if I wanted some. I said, "I will try 
it." So I tried it. It made me vomit up. Then I began to feel — 
next day I had a few dollai-s and I went to get a boy to get some 
because I liked the feeling. It was a better feeling than the reefers. 
The Chairman. Did you get it then ? 
The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I would like to ask you, first of all, how did you 
take it at first ? 

The Witness. The first time I used it by the needle. 
The Chairman. Did you ever sniff it at all ? 
The Witness. I have sniffed it. 

The Chairman. When you used it with a needle, did you just put 
it uncler the skin ? Do you know what "mainlining" is ? 
The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you do the mainlining right from the be- 
ginning ? 

The Witness. That is right. 
The Chairman. Who suggested that? 

The Witness. Everybody else was mainlining. I never came in 
contact with people who were "skin pop." Everybody was main- 
lining. 

The Chairman. Were many of them snuffing it at all ? 
The Witness. Yes, people were sniffing it. 

The Chairman. What did you feel as to the best way to do it? 
The Witness. The best way is by the "hyp." The needle. 
Tlie Chairman. Did you use a hypodermic much? 
The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. And after the first time, when you were compelled 
to vomit, did you have that experience afterward? 

The Witness. The feeling I had the first time, when I first started, 
I never had any more. 

The Chairman. That upset your stomach? 
The W^iTNESS. That is right. 
The Chairman. I see. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 75 

The Witness. But after that time, it was a sensation that I never 
had again. 

The Chairman. When you went back, you said you got the $3 and 
went to find the boy. When you used it the next time, what sort of 
a sensation did you get ? 

The Witness. I did not feel like I did the day before, but I felt 
real good and everything. 

The Chairman. And about how long did it last? 

The Witness. That lasted according to how good the heroin was. 

The Chairman. Let's talk about the average dose. Sometimes 
would you hear it said that one of the boys had something good, heroin, 
or a better brand or a better dose ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I was just wondering how long the average dose 
would hold up. 

The Witness. I used some heroin that was real good and lasted me 
from about 5 o'clock in the evening until 1 o'clock that same night. 

The Chairman. After the eifects wore oif, how would you feel? 

The Witness. If I had the habit I would feel bad in the stomach. 
I couldn't hold any food or anything. The nose runs and your eyes 
run. You feel weak. You have cramps in your stomach. 

The Chairman. Then what would you do? 

The Witness. Tlien I would get $3 and find a man. 

The Chairman. That is just what I want you to tell us about, if 
you would, just when the effects would be wearing off, just what you 
would feel that you needed and had to have, and how badly you felt 
that you wanted it and wliat you did to relieve that feeling. If you 
will tell us that, I will be obliged to you. 

The Witness. Well, when I began to get sick, I knew I had to have 
some heroin, so I would.get me $3 and I would go and find a man who 
had some and get some, and I would leave him and I would go and 
cook it up and use it and then after I had used it and I was through 
with it, I would feel much better. 

The Chairman. The reason I ask you, for instance, if you would 
take a dose around 5 o'clock and it was good, it would last you until 1, 
and, if you used some more, then how were you able to repeat and 
keep using it? 

The Witness. You keep using it. Some people have used as high 
as 20 at one time. 

The Chairman. Twenty ? 

The Witness. Twenty caps at one time. It is according to your 
system. 

The Chairman. How much have you used ? 

The Witness. One cap, two caps, and sometimes three and four. 
When I use four or five like that, when I go to a party ■ 

The Chairman. When you went to a party you might use two or 
three or four or five ? Would that give you a very good feeling ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long would it last ? 

The Witness. It would last a long time, according to how many I 
used. 

The Chairman. When that would wear off, would you feel pretty 
badly ? 



76 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN. INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Yes. ' . ", 

The Chairman. How much would it cost you for five ? 
The Witness. Fifteen dollars. 
The Chairman. Was it always $3? 

The Witness. Just like if I buy from you all the time and I con- 
stantly buy from jou, maybe I would be sliort the $3 and, say, I had 
$1.50 or $2 or $2.50, you would let me have it for that. 

The Chairman. And owe for the balance ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

The Chairman. Were there any times when anybody would suggest 
your changing and getting something better, any other peddler, or 
any of the boys that were selling it ? 

The Witness. Say it again. 

The Chairman. Were there any times when you were told by the 
boys who had the stuff that they had something better that you might 
use or you could get something better from somebody or other? 

The Witness. 1 hfive been buying from you and probably he would 
have something better? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How would that word get around ? 

The Witness. I wouldn't be looking for any and probably you 
would come to me and say that so and so has some bad stuff. 

The Chairman. That is what I want to ask you, as to whether there 
were many around that had this stuff and were selling it. 

The Witness. What do you mean? 

The Chairman. Could you get it from a number of different boys ? 

The Witness. You could get it from difl'erent places. 

The Chairman. How would you know where to go to look for it ? 

The W^itness. If you started to use it, you would know everybody 
who used it. 

The Chairman. How ? 

The AViTNESs. You started using it, an addict would introduce you 
to the next addict. Somebody would say to you, "I heard somebody 
got the bag," or something like that. 

The Chairman. By having a bag, it meant he had a lot of stuff to 
sell? 

The Witness. That is right. 

The Chairman. You mentioned before some would take a great 
number of caps. Would they be paying $3 apiece for them ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. How many was the biggest number that you knew 
a person to take? 

The Witness. I have seen a boy take 20, sometimes 5 at a time, and 
then he would finish that and get 5 more and fix it up. 

The Chairman. How would he use it ? 

The Witness. By the needle. 

The Chairman. And shoot the five caps in all at one time? 

The Witness. That is right. 

The Chairman. When you did that, at the parties, how many would 
be at the parties ; how many different ones using it ? 

The Witness. The ])arty would be strictly for addicts; nobody else 
but addicts would come. If you sniff, you sniff. If you shoot, you 
shoot. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 77 

The Chairman. About how many different people wonld be there ? 

The Witness. Any amount could be there, sometimes about 15 peo- 
ple could be there, sometimes 20. 

The Chairman. It would not always be the same number or the 
same people ? I was wondering how the number varied ? How big 
was the biggest party that you were at ? 

The Witness. The biggest party I ever went to was about thirty- 
some people. 

The Chairman. Wliat would they do after they got there in addi- 
tion to taking the hyps? 

The Witness. They would sit down and talk and play records, 
different records, and everything like that, probably eat something. 

The Chairman. Dance? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. No dancing? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. Why not? 

The Witness. Because an addict doesn't go in for dancing. 

The Chairman. For what reason ? 

The Witness. I don't know. Just like me, when I used to use it, 
I didn't care for dancing. Addicts have different types of music. 
Addicts go in for classical music and bop, what you call be-bop. 
They would sit down and listen to that music, but they would have no 
feeling to dance. 

The Chairman. Would they have any feeling of men going for the 
women and women being with the men ? 

The Witness. No : they had only the desire to sit and talk. 

The Chairman. No relations between the men and the women? 

The Witness. Some people it affects that way, but some people 
it doesn't. 

The Chairman. Did you know of many cases where the fellows or 
the girls who were using this stuff' did not "have any money and wanted 
to <j:et some stuff and had to do things to get the money ? 

The Witness. Yes; some people did not have the money. Some 
people worked. Some people stole, and like that. Some people 
gambled, or something like that. 

The Chairman. I am not asking about yourself, but do you think 
any of the men or the women who, when the effects wore off and they 
wanted another cap or a number of caps and were broke, went out 
to steal to get the money with which to buy it ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. But would you know of any cases where the 
women went out with the men to get the money ? 

Miss Thomas. I never knew of any. They would never come and 
tell me. 

The Chairman, I thought maybe at the parties — I am guessing a 
little bit, but I want you to tell me if it is true — at the parties where 
there would be 15 or 20 or 30 people, where they were taking it, the 
girls or the men might say how they got the money to buy the stuff. 

The Witness. No : they would not discuss that part of it. 

The Chairman. For instance, the fellow who you said took as 
many as you described, 5 at a time, and up to 20, that is a lot of 
money. 

85277— 51— pt. 14 6 



78 ORGANIZED CMME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. But that boy had his own bag. Wlien people do that, 
they mostly have their own bag or sometimes they go and work and 
have a good day, but a person who would take that many would have 
to have a real bag. 

The Chairman. You have been using heroin for about 4 months? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. And until when did you use it? Wlien was the 
last time you had a shot ? 

The Witness. The last time I had one was the same day I got caught. 

The Chairman. After that — we are talking about your own feel- 
ings now — did you feel the need of it ? 

The Witness. No. I felt like I had a new body. Everything on 
me was new. I felt like I was born again. 

The Chairman. I think you were — at the time the police, how long 
ago was that ? 

The Witness. Wlien I was arrested ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

The Witness. February. 

The Chairman. Because I think your case came up on the 22d of 
March. 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. After you were caught, then you didn't have any 
since ? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. Haven't you felt the need for it ? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. Or the desire for it? 

The Witness. No ; because I do not have it on my mind and don't 
worry about it. 

The Chairman. Don't tell us anything that you do not mean. If 
you don't want to tell me, just say so. But I wanted to ask you really 
seriously whether you think you can keep otf it ? 

The Witness. Yes; I can, for my sake and my family's sake, be- 
cause I lost my pride for my family and everybody. 

The Chairman. Did your family know you were using it? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. I don't want you to make it sound good. If you 
do not want to tell, don't tell. I don't want you to tell us anything 
you don't mean. Do you feel that you can stay off it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Since you have been down here, for instance, it has 
been now over 2 months. Haven't you felt that you would like to 
have a shot ? 

The Witness. No, because I do not hear talk of it around here. 

The Chairman. When you get out, do you think that you wtII go 
back to it and see the same people that you used to see ? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. If you did happen to meet them, do you think they 
could get you to go to one of the parties? 

The Witness. If I met one of them, I would go on my w^ay and keep 
my head up. 

The Chairman. You do not think they could entice you to go to 
one of the parties, just to go back and see the old friends again? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 79 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. Would you think it a good thing if everybody 
would keep away from it? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Why? 

Tlie Witness. Because, for one thing, you lose all your respect, 
your pride and everything. You lose everything when you use dope. 
You lose everything. I have seen people who have had some and 
started using that and fell right down to the ground, losing everything. 

The Chairman. And you do not know of any good it does you? 

The Witness. It don't do you no good at all. 

The Chairman. Did you ever talk to other people about your using 
it, other girls, your boy friends or girl friends, who were not addicts? 

The Witness. No, because I didn't want anybody to know I was 
using it. 

The Chairman. You kept it to yourself ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

The Chairman. The only thing I am a little puzzled about is as to 
how the addicts who know each other so well and would get together 
so easily and would have such a big group together, like when you say 
the big parties around 30 or 40, how would that come about? 

The Witness. They would know each, other and probably they 
would have tickets 

(Discussion off the record.) 

The Chairman. I would like you to tell Mr. Moser and Mr. Hepbron 
how many would be at the parties, like you described. 

The Witness. Sometimes 15 or 20, sometimes more than that. 

Mr. MosER. At somebody's house? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. You said you knew sometimes parties where there 
were 30 to 40. 

The Witness. That is right. 

The Chairman. On those occasions, did any of them talk about 
whether they had any trouble getting it or whether they got it pretty 
easily ? 

The Witness. They would not talk about that. The only time they 
would talk about the stuff was whether it was good or whether it was 
bad. 

The Chairman. You mentioned before that sometimes the boys that 
were using a great deal of it had their own bag. Did they divide 
that with anybody else or would they more or less just keep it for 
themselves ? 

The Witness. If that bag was not as good as the next man's bag? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

The Witness. They would keep on selling it. 

The Chairman. But the boy that was using it himself from his own 
bag. he did not give it to other boys ? 

The Witness. No ; unless he was a big man and had different people 
working for him. 

The Chairman. I asked her before as to whether from the time of 
her arrest, which was in February, and her sentencing, which was on 
March 22, she felt the need of it, and she said she did not, and that she 
feels very definitely that she can stay off it, and she was just telling 



80 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

US the reasons. Do you actually feel that way, that you can stay 
off it? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Why do you feel that you are so sure? 

The Witness. I can stay off it because, in the first place, it wasn't 
really habit forming to me. I did not use it as though to form a habit^ 
for some people use it every day and form a habit. I tried to use it 
a day and skip p. day and maybe not use it for 4 or 5 days. 

Mr. MosER. Didn't you feel sick when you didn't have it ? 

The Witness. When you have a habit, you are sick. When you 
do not have a habit, you are not sick. However, you crave for it. 
That is what I did ; craved for it. 

Mr. Moser. You have been sick from not having it? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. And you took it to overcome the sickness ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Then you had the habit ? 

The Witness. Yes ; but my habit was only one cap a day. 

The Chairman. Did there come times when you did not feel good, 
felt sick, and then you took more, increased the caps, the number of 
them you used, more than you had been using? 

The Witness. No. The only time I used more — because I was 
scared to use it since I heard people used it, overdoses, and died from 
it. That was why I was scared to use it. I have seen people use it 
and fall right out and never gain consciousness again. 

The Chairman. You have told us before that you used one cap and 
then went on to a second one and then you used three, four, and five. 
Was five about the greatest number ? 

The Witness. Five was the greatest number I had. 

Mr. Moser. That was the greatest number in 1 day you had ? 

The Witness. That is riglit. That was mostly when I went to 
a party. 

Mr. Moser. Where were the parents of the children who attended 
the parties ? 

The Witness. I was the only young one there. I was the youngest. 
They did not know I was that young. They would be 30 and 40 
years old, 28, 29, and they would probably have a house of their own. 

The Chairman. Only addicts would attend? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. You told us before that at parties they would just 
take it and would sit around and they would just listen to records and 
talk, but there would be no dancing, that they would not go in for 
that at all and would not mix men and women together for anything 
wrong. 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. You say that sometimes the big man would be the one 
who had several people working for him. Did the big man attend 
the parties ? 

The Witness. When they had 40 or 50 people like that, it would 
only be a big man's party. Most all the big men would be at the party. 

Mr. Moser. They were the hosts of the party ? 

The Witness. They would have a party themselves, among all of 
them. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 81 

Mr. MosER. And you would attend those ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Would they invite you to attend ? 

The Witness. You would have to be invited to attend. 

Mr. MosER. How much money did you spend a day ? 

The Witness. Three dollars, five dollars, nine dollars. 

Mr. MosER. Where did you get the money ? 

The Witness. From my mother, doing a day's work. Somebody 
would come to me and have something and say, "Would you go and 
sell this forme?" 

Mr. MosER. You would sell to get money to buy it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did they give it to you free at the start? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. To start you in? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Who gave it to you ? 

The AViTNESs. A boy. 

Mr. MosER. Who was using it himself ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Do you think he was working for a peddler ? 

The Witness. No, he didn't have a bag. He just took it himself. 

Mr. Moser. He was just getting you started for the fun of it really? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Now, you also told us of cases which you have 
known where they didn't have the money to buy it to keep up the habit, 
and they would steal ; is that right ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

The Chairman. And do other things. I asked you about whether 
there were any cases of going out with other men. Do you know cases 
like that? 

The Witness. A woman alone went on the streets. 

The Chairman. Just to get the money ? 

The Witness. Yes. I have seen that, 

Mr. MosER. To get money ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. To buy the stuff ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

The Chairman. She thinks it is all wrong and she would certainly 
like to do everything she can to keep other people from starting on the 
habit ; isn't that right ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. If you had known at the start that you could get hooked 
and that you could never get off, that you would have trouble getting 
off, and it would cost you all this money and that you might end up 
in jail, would you have started? 

The Witness. No, sir, I thought it was just like reefers. It was 
not habit forming. That was what I thought. 

Mr. Moser. Do you think if other children knew how bad it was, 
they would be less likely to start? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. You wish you had known then ? 

The Witness. Yes. 



82 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. You think it would be better to tell them ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Hepburn. Is there much reefer smoking among the children 
in the neighborhood ? 

The Witness. In my neighborhood ? 

Mr. Hepburn. Yes. 

The Witness. I am the oldest one that uses it. 

Mr. Hepburn. How about among the colored population in gen- 
eral ? If you had parties that consisted of 40 or 50, that would not 
represent all addicts. How many addicts would you say there were 
in the northwestern section? Were there many of them? 

The Witness. I wouldn't say at my neighborhood. I went uptown 
or crosstown, on Freemont Avenue, where they have people using 
it, but on George Street, or something like that, they did not use it. 
My girl friends did not know I was using it. I never stayed there. 
I used to go uptown somewhere. 

The Chairman. How would you know where to go? 

The Witness. All addicts would be there. 

Mr. Hepburn, How many would you say there are ? 

The Witness. I do not know how many there is. There is a cer- 
tain amount in north Baltimore, south Baltimore, and east Baltimore. 

The Chairman. From what you told us, it looks like there was a 
great many. 

The Witness. Yes. One time I could walk the street and see you 
and would not know you were an addict. Now I walk the street and 
I can tell he is an addict. 

Mr. Moser. You can tell by looking at him ? 

The Witness. Now I can tell. 

Mr. MosER. Can you tell us how you know ? 

The Witness. You look just like all the addicts. All the addicts 
have the same expression on their faces. It seems that their faces all 
look the same way, but I could tell them by their faces. 

The Chairman. When you walk up Pennsylvania Avenue or Free- 
mont, would you see many there whom you knew were addicts ? 

The Witness. Yes; on Pennsylvania Avenue. 

Mr, MosER. Do you live with your parents ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And you kept this from them, I suppose? 

The Witness. They didn't know it. 

Mr. MosER. They know it now ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You had to make excuses to get away from them to go 
to these parties? , 

The Witness. I would tell my mother I was going to a girl friend's 
house, or to the movies, or somethino; like that. 

Mr. MosER. If your mother had kept a closer eye on you, you would 
have had trouble getting away with it? 

The Witness. Say that again ? 

Mr. MosER. If your mother had kept track of you better and known 
more about what you were doing, you would have had trouble getting 
away with it, wouldn't you ? 

The Witness. What? 

Mr. MosER, You could not have gone to the parties ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 83 

The Witness. If they knew I used dope, they wouldn't let me. 

Mr. MosER. Did she work ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. MosER. Your mother was home ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Eeidt. When you were talking to me about the marijuana situ- 
ation and also about being involved with the cocky boy, you said at 
that time that you wanted to stay off heroin and you also said you 
wanted to stay off marijuana. In talking to Senator O'Conor, you 
talked about heroin, that you w^anted to keep away from it completely. 
Do you feel the same way about marijuana ? 

The Witness. I never cared about marijuana. I just used mari- 
juana. Marijuana is not habit forming at all. I have had people 
walk up to me and say, "Take that." Then I would give it to some- 
body else. I never care for that very much. 

Mr. Reidt. Are you going to use it when you get out of here ? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. Did you ever go to any other place than Baltimore 
to get it ? 

The Witness. Mostly where I would get it, I would meet people in 
the streets, or they would be in a night club, or probably at the 
house. 

Mr. MosER. Never w^ent to Washington for it ? 

The Witness. No. I have been in Washington. I never had a bag 
of my own. I was a user, but I never peddled. 

The Chairman. Have you gotten it in Washington? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Hepburn. Have you been to a party in Washington? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Hepburn. The same kind of parties as in Baltimore? 

The Witness. Washington was better than Baltimore. 

Mr. MosER. Why? 

The Witness. In Baltimore they get their stuff from New York 
and Washington. It was better in Washington. 

The Chairman. How much did you pay for it in Washington ? 

The Witness. One dollar for a package. 

Mr. MosER. Cheaper? 

The Witness. Baltimore is the only place it costs $3. In New York, 
50 cents a cap. 

Mr. MosER. Have you been in New York for it? 

The Witness. I have been in New York. 

Mr. Moser. To get it? 

The Witness. No, just on a week end. My girl friend would say, 
"Let's go to New York." They probably would have some better 
stuff there. We would go to New York and get some to use for 
myself. 

The Chairman. Did the girl friend use it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you have trouble in New York finding the stuff? 

The Witness. No. This girl friend knew a girl. She didn't want 
us to use it. This man was staying in the same place. He was selling: 
it. We got it from him. 



84 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. From liim? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. 

TESTIMONY OF MISS — , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. I want to tell you who we are and to tell you what 
we wanted to talk to you about. We are from the Senate and we 
are having this hearing to ask you and some others of the girls to tell 
us about the use of drugs, but I wanted to tell you that we are not 
trying to have you tell us about any other crimes that may have been 
involved. We are not trying to find out anything about other offenses. 
Do you know what I mean ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. We are not trying to get you into any trouble. 
"Would you be willing to talk with us ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Would you have any objection to being sworn, 
to swear that you will tell the truth ? 

The Witness. I do. 

The Chairman. In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear 
in the testimony you are about to give us you will give us the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ? 

Miss James. I do. 

The Chairman. How old are you ? 

The Witness. Twenty-three. 

The Chairman. You live in Mulligan Court? 

The AViTNESs. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived in Baltimore? 

The Witness. All my life. 

The Chairman. What family do you have? 

The Witness. Mother, father. 

The Chairman. Are they alive ? 

The Witness. My mother and father are divorced. 

The Chairman. I think you have two brothers and a sister. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. They are all younger than you are? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman, You are the oldest ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

The Chairman. This is Mr. Moser, who is the counsel, the lawyer, 
for the committee, and I would like to have him ask you some questions. 

Mr. Moser. Do you want to tell us how you happened to get on 
drugs? First tell us if you tried marijuana and then tell us about 
heroin. Did you ever use marijuana reefers? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. I started on marijuana, a little bit of mor- 
phine and cocaine, and then gradually with heroin. 

Mr. Moser. Were you in school when you started with reefers ? 

The Witness. Yes ; I was. 

Mr. Moser. Were many other children in school using it? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Just a few ? 

The Witness. Just a few. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 85 

Mr. MosER. Tell us how you happened to get started on heroin. 
"Were there other children involved^ 

The Witness. I stopped after I came out of school, and then I 
started again in 1949. 

Mr. MosER. Did you use heroin in school ? 

The Witness. No. After I got out in 1949, I started. 

Mr. ]\IosER. You started and then you stopped again ? 

The Witness. I stopped using marijuana and then took heroin. 

Mr. MosER. When you first took up heroin, did somebody give it 
to you free ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did the person who gave it to you free peddle it? 
Was he a peddler? 

The Witness. He was a user. 

Mr. MosER. Was he selling it? 

The Witness. No ; he wasn't. 

Mr. MoSER. He was somebody you knew ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. He was using it and suggested you use it ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Just for the fun of it ? 

The Witness. Maybe it was fun, but I don't call it fun. 

Mr. MosER. Did he say you would get a better bang out of it? 

The Witness. Better feeling. 

Mr. MosER. And did you start in snorting it, sniffing it? 

The Witness. A little bit of it, but it used to make me sick. 

Mr. MosER. Did he put it in ? 

The Witness. He used to fix it for me until I could fix it up myself. 

Mr. Moser. How long before you w ere hooked ? 

The Witness. About 2 weeks. 

Mr. MosER. And you knew you were hooked how ? 

The Witness. I kept feeling bad in the morning, having headaches 
and couldn't eat, and, when I went to work, I felt useless. I wanted 
to work, but I could not. I knew I had to work to support my mother 
and my little boy. 

Mr. "Moser. Then you took it so you would feel better ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir, 

Mr. MosER. How often would you take it ? 

The Witness. Twice a day, according to how good it was ; that is, 
how much you have to take of it depends upon how good it is. The 
better it is, the less you take of it. 

Mr. MosER. How much was your habit costing you when they finally 
caught up with you? 

The Witness. I had reduced it to $9 a day. 

Mr. Moser. You say you reduced it ? 

The Witness. I had increased it to $9 a day. 

Mr. MosER. Did you get it in Baltimore ? 

The Witness. Yes ; I bought it in Baltimore. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever go to parties with other people who were 
doing it, or did you do it by yourself ? 

The Witness. I went to different parties ; most of the time I was by 
myself. 



86 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. And when you went to these parties, how many people 
would be there ? 

The AYiTNESS. A few people, not many. There wouldn't be a crowd. 

Mr. MosER. Six to eight? 

The Witness. About a half a dozen people. 

Mr. Moser. How old were they ? 

The Witness. Twenty-one, most of them, men and women near my 
age. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever go to Washington for it? 

The Witness. Yes ; I have been to Washington, but not to get any 
stuff. I just went over there with people. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever go to Xew York to get it ? 

The Witness. I have been there once. 

Mr. Moser. To get the stuff? 

The Witness. Not to get it. I was on a vacation, but, while I was 
up there, I got some. 

Mr. Moser. You got some there ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How much did it cost in Baltimore ^ 

The Witness. Three dollars. 

Mr. Moser. For a cap ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. How about New York? 

The Witness. In New York you can get it for $1 or $1.50. 

Mr. Moser. For a cap? 

The Witness. A package. 

Mr. Moser. It was loose ? 

The Witness. Loose. 

Mr. Moser. Was it better in New York? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Better quality ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Where did you get the money to buy it ? 

The Witness. I worked. 

Mr. Moser. Just from ordinary work? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Wliat work did you do ? 

The Witness. Restaurant and hospital work. 

Mr. Moser. Waiting on table? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; and nurses' aid. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever get to the point where you had to steal to 
get it? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Some of the people did? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. They told you they did ? 

The Witness. I knew they did. I didn't have to get to the point 
where I had to steal or prostitute. 

The Chairman. If you had gotten the feeling that you wanted it 
and did not have the money, would that be the only way you could 
get it? Was it the feeling so much, that you might have had to ? 

The Witness. I don't think so. 

The Chairman. You think you could have kept from stealing? 



ORGAXIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE OOMMERCE 87 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. You don't know for sure. You did not get to that 
point ? 

The Witness. I was pretty bad off. I really suffered in the Balti- 
more City Jail. I just did not get to the point of stealing and pros- 
tituting. I just do not like it. 

The Chairman. Did you know of others who did? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ]\Ioser. You are here for possession only? 

The Witness. They have me for selling. 

Mr. Moser. If you had known before you took heroin that you 
would get to the point where you needed it desperately and had to get 
money in any way to do it and that you would get sick if you didn't 
have it and might end up in jail, would you have taken it? 

The Witness. Xo, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Do you think that other people your age would stay 
away from it if they knew that? 

The Witness. I couldn't say about other people. The majority of 
them are weak-minded. It takes a strong feeling to stay away from 
it. They do not treat us like we are sick. Wliat it is is like a disease. 

Mr. Moser. You feel it is a disease ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And you find that people who have the disease tend 
to get other people to have it? 

The Witness. Yes, sir; because they like to see people doing the 
same things they are doing. Once you start, you just have to keep 
on until you have the will power to stop it. 

Mr. Moser. It spreads, doesn't it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Do you think that there are a lot of addicts outside 
w^ho do not get caught up with, do not get to jail ? 

The Witness. Sure ; there are plenty of them out. 

Mr. Moser. How many do you know yourself ? 

The Witness. I know most of them are in the House of Correction. 

Mr. Moser. They have been caught eventually ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

My. ]\Ioser. You lived with your mother and father? 

The Witness. My mother. My mother and father have been di- 
vorced for 9 years. 

Mr. Moser. You lived with your mother ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And with your little boy ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Did your mother know you were doing this? 

The Witness. Not until last year after I got caught with a needle 
and syringe and I made probation. She found out then. 

Mr. Moser. Is this the second time you are here ? 

The Witness. Xo ; the first. 

Mr. Moser. You were on probation? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you finish out the probation ? 

The Witness. It will be up in June of this year. 



88 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. You violated the probation. That is vrhy you got 
here ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. You went to school for how long ? 

The Witness. I finished school. 

The Chairman. And, in your schooling, did you have any par- 
ticular interest in any one subject or another? 

The Witness. I wanted to be a home economics teacher. 

The Chairman. And did you do much reading or writing ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. The reason I ask that is that I understand you won 
or had been one of the winners of an essay contest. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. On what subject? 

The Witness. Juvenile delinquency. 

The Chairman. So you really have given some thought to that 
subject? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. I intend to write a book now. 

The Chairman. Have you been in the past interested in studying 
the subject, in reading about it? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; I have. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. 

The Witness. May I ask a question ? 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

The Witness. Why is it they do not treat drug addicts ? 

Mr. MosER. Why don't they treat them ? 

The Witness. You read in the papers where they raise so many 
funds to find a cure for tuberculosis and cancer and different diseases 
like that. Why don't they try to find a cure for drug addicts ? 

Mr. Hepbron. Because the Government has established these insti- 
tutions, like the one at Lexington and the one at Fort Worth, where 
people can voluntarily go and be treated for drug addiction, but what 
a drug addict does not understand is that about the only treatment in 
the world is to withdraw him from the drug and try to build him up 
psychologically so he won't have to go back again. Everything de- 
pends upon him. You will leave here with no habit. That is cor- 
rect, isn't it ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hepbron. You are cured insofar as not having withdrawals 
symptoms. The balance is up to you when you leave here. Once you 
touch it, you are gone, just like an alcoholic. The first drink he 
touches, he is back again. You cannot cut it out just like cancer and 
remove it. With drug addiction, there is that desire on your part to go 
back to it again. If you don't control it and keep away from bad 
associates and get your satisfaction in life from some other way — do 
you understand that? 

• The Witness. I understand that. Since I have been here I have 
seen the Alcoholics Anonymous come in and talk to tliem, and I am sure 
they give a person better hope in showing different things out in the 
world. We do not have anyone to talk to. 

Mr. Hepbron. There is a group called Narcotics Anonymous, just 
like Alcoholics Anonymous. 



ORGANIiZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 89 

Mr. MosER. It is brand new. 

Mr. Hepbron. They have a big branch in New York. They are es- 
tablishing branches. They will try to do the same thing for drug 
addicts as Alcoholics Anonymous did for alcoholics. It is the same 
program except it is devoted to drugs. The withdrawal symptoms 
from alcohol are not as great as the withdrawal symptoms from heroin, 
as you know. So we are trying to do something about keeping people 
from getting it in the first place. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hepbron. Have you written any part of that book ? 

The Witness. We cannot have much paper, I wanted to write to 
the superintendent to see if I could get the paper to start on it, because 
I have it in my brains. 

Mr. Hepbron. I think we could arrange to let her get the paper, 
so they can have a record of your thoughts. That will be taken care of. 

Dr. Fitzgibbons. Yes. 

Mr. Hepbron. What you say might undoubtedly be very helpful 
to other young girls and boys. 

The Witness. That is right. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. 

TESTIMONY OF MISS , MARIJUANA SMOKER 

The Chairman. I am Senator O'Conor. We are from the Senate 
and want just to talk with you for a while. Would you be willing to 
talk to us? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I wanted to explain to you at the outset that we 
are not here to have you get into any trouble or request you to tell 
us anything concerning any offenses or anything of that kind that 
you have been interested in, but only with regard to narcotics and 
drugs. Would you be willing to talk to us ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman, Would you mind being sworn ? 

The Witness. No, 

The Chairman. In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear 
the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth ? 

The Witness. I do. 

The Chairman. These other men — this is Mr. ^Moser, who is the 
counsel for our committee, and Mr. Hepbron and the other men — 
are connected with our staff, and I wanted to have you realize and 
be convinced that we are not anxious to ask you anything about any 
other matters that you might feel would involve you in anything 
with the law. You understand what I mean? Do you believe that? 

The Witness. I believe it. 

The Chairman. If during the time that we are talking to you, you 
change your mind and do not believe it, say so. If there is any- 
thing you feel might involve you in anything, do not answer it. If 
you do not want to, tell us so, because we do not want to involve 
you in anything, but only to talk about the situation generally. 
Under those circumstances, would you be willing to talk to us? 
The Witness. Yes. 



90 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. First of all, how old are you ? 

The Witness. Nineteen, this July. 

The Chairman. And how long have you lived in Baltimore? 

The Witness. I left home about 1949. That would be 2 years. 

The Chairman. Where were you living when you left home? 

The Witness. At Reading, Pa. 

The Chairman. How long had you been living in Reading? 

The Witness. Sixteen years. 

The Chairm-iN. And you came directly from Reading to Balti- 
more ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What brought you to Baltimore ? 

The Witness. I just left home, that is all. 

The Chairman. Had you been using anything, marijuana or any 
other narcotics, before you came to Baltimore ? 

The Witness. I never heard of it before. 

The Chairman. Where did you first hear about it ? 

The Witness. In a Walkathon in Frederick, Md. 

The Chairman, Did you go to Frederick before coming to Bal- 
timore ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Was it there that you heard about it, at the Walk- 
athon ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How did you come to liear about it ? 

The Witness. They were smoking it, and I asked what it was. They 
told me it was a cigarette 'from overseas. Later on I found out what 
it was. 

The Chairman. Mr. Moser w^ould have some questions he would 
like to ask. 

Mr. MosER. Fern, have you used anything besides marijuana ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Never used heroin at all ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Have you been around people who used heroin? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Did you use marijuana quite a little ? 

The Witness. I didn't use it much. 

Mr. Moser. Why are you in here? For the use of marijuana? 

The Witness. For the use of marijuana. 

Mr. Moser. Possession of marijuana ? 

The Witness. I didn't have it on me. 

Mr. Moser. We are not concerned really with why you are here. I 
am not concerned about whether they arrested you correctly or any- 
thing like that. 

The Witness. But you said possession. 

Mr. Moser. That is the charge. 

The Witness. That is the charge. 

Mr. Moser. Did the people who were using marijuana seem to be 
young people, your age ? 

The Witness. All ages. 

Mr. Moser. You were then 17 or 18 ? 

The Witness. Eighteen. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 91 

Mr. MosER. At this Walkathon, all your friends were usinj;- it ; is 
that it ? 

The Witness. Well. I had just met them. I wouldirt call them my 
friends. 

Mr. MosER. There were quite a few of them using it; is that right? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. What eft'ect did it have on you ? 

The Witness. I don't know. It made me feel sick. Sometimes it 
made me feel sick, and sometimes it made me just — my head used to 
spin, that was all. 

Mr. MosER. Did you find it hard to buy when you wanted it ? 

The Witness. I did not buy it. 

Mr. MosER. It was just given to you by friends 'I 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And did you feel that you had to have it ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. MosER. You sometimes just used it for the fun of it, but you 
did not have to have it ^ 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. MosER. You didn't feel sick, if you didn't have it ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. MosER. You do not feel you were addicted to it ? 

The Witness. I do not think so. 

The Chairman. You feel that you would ever use it again ? 

The Witness. I don't care if I never see it again. 

The Chairman. Do you know anything about the use of reefers 
by school children ? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. You do not know anything about that ? 

The Witness. No. I do not know anything about that. I used to 
go around with ones about 26 and in their thirties. 

The Chairman. Mostly older boys ? 

The Witness. Older people. 

The Chairman. You came to Baltimore about a year ago? 

The Witness. I left about March 1949. 

The Chairman. That is, you left to come to Baltimore? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. And did you find there was more reefer smoking 
here in Baltimore than the place you had been ? 

The Witness. I had never heard about it before I met those people 
from Baltimore, when I went to Baltimore and I heard of it. 

The Chairman. We just thought that we might be able to do some 
good by preventing others from getting into it if they knew how 
harmful it is. Having been in Baltimore for the last 2 years — and 
you were around the Oasis for a wliile, weren't you ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You were living on Cathedral Street, I believe. 
Did you find out much about marijuana being used in Baltimore? 

The Witness. Being used ? 

The Chairman. Yes. As to whether or not it was easy to get. 

The Witness. Sometimes it was easy ; sometimes it was hard. 

The Chairman. Did you try to get it sometimes and find it hard 
to sret ? 



92 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. I never tried. I never knew where to get it. 

The Chairman. Without telling us any names, because we don't 
want you to do that, would you know of others, either girl friends or 
boy friends, who tried to get it and found it hard to get ? 

The Witness. I know of them. 

The Chairman. And then would you learn when they did get it? 

The Witness. They would tell me. 

The Chairman. And how would they get it? In stores or on the 
street ? We are not asking for the names or the places. 

The Witness. It would be at a fellow's apartment. He would go 
out in a car and he would sell it. 

The Chairman. And there would be many people using it whom 
they could sell it to ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Do you know how much they sold it for ? 

The Witness. 1 do not know, $5 an ounce, something like that. 

Mr. Moser. They sold it by the cigarette ? 

The Witness. Sometimes by the cigarette and sometimes by the 
bags. 

The Chairman. Do you know of any cases where people had been 
using marijuana and later were using something else, heroin? 

The Witness. I know of some cases. 

The Chair:man. And did they tell you or did you learn that they 
had become addicted to heroin after using marijuana ? 

The Witness. This one party I know started to smoke marijuana 
and she went to the needle and she asked me one time if I would come 
up to her apartment and use it with her. I said I wouldn't do that. 
She was using it. 

The ('Hairman. Did she have the habit very bad? 

The Witness. Very bad. She was up for the cure, I guess. 

Mr. Hepbron. Up at Lexington, Ky. ? 

The Witness. She was here. 

The Chairman. Is she here yet? 

The Witness. She is gone. 

The Chairman. Was she off it ? 

The Witness. She told me that she was cured of it. 

Mr. Moser. You do not know whether she went back or not ? 

The Witness. I do not know. I hope not. 

Mr. Hepbron. You usually smoked marijuana before you did your 
strip-tease act ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Hepbron. To give you pep to do a good act? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did anybody suggest it to you, to do it that way ? 

The Witness. A lot of them would say, "Take this and it will make 
you give a good act." 

The Chairman. Who would say that? I don't mean the names. 
Were they men connected with the place, or other girls? 

The Witness. Not the men connected with the place, because they 
are against it all the way. 

Mr. >TosER. Did it make you do a good act? 

The Witness. Better than usual. 

Mr. MosER. It felt better? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 93 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did any of your friends tell you whether you did any 
better? 

The Witness. Yes, they would say, "You go wilder on the floor." 

Mr. Hepbron. Is there'much smoking of marijuana in the block? 
You understand what I mean by the block in Baltimore? 

The Witness. Tliere is a lot on Charles Street and Baltimore Street. 

Mr. Hephkon. There is a good deal of marijuana smoking in the 
block and Charles Street ? 

The AViTNESs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hepbron. It is rather widespread? Is that what you are 
saying? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hepbron. A great many people smoke it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Would there be very many young people ? 

The Witness. The only ones I know would be around 19 years old to 
in their thirties. I never knew of any under 19. 

Mr. Hepbron. If they are under 19, they could not come in to these 
places on the block where they sold liquor. 

The AViTNESs. Unless they didn't look their age, I guess. 

The Chairman. I wondered if you might have heard whether the 
same people were selling them to younger people. If that is true. 

The Witness. I guess they would sell it to anybody. 

The Chairman. You don't know yourslf ? 

The Witness. I don't know myself. 

The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you. Is there any- 
thing else yod would want to tell us or that you think would be of 
interest to us. 

The Witness. That is all I have to say. 

TESTIMONY OP MRS. , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. I wanted to say who we are and then to ask you : 
Would you be willing to talk with us ? 

We are not anxious to ask you anything about any offenses or any 
crime or anything of that kind. We do not want you to feel that 
we are here to get you into any trouble. You believe us in saying 
that? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The ChairMxVN. Would you be willing to talk with us about matters 
generally with regard to drugs and narcotics, not to involve anybody 
or mention any names, but just to tell us about the habit generally, 
so we might be able to help others,.young people particularly ? Would 
you be willing? 

The Witness. If I can. 

The Chairman. Would you have any objection to being sworn and 
telling it under oath ? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. Would you raise your right hand ? 

In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear the testimony you 
give is the truth, tlie whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 

The Witness. I do. 

85277— 51— pt. 14 7 



94 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. I am the counsel for this Senate committee, and I 
want to ask you a few questions that will give us an idea as to what 
the problem of narcotics is and help us find a solution. Have you been 
addicted to heroin '^ 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How long have you been addicted ? 

The Witness. 1 guess about 30 years. 

Mr. MosER. Thirty years? 

The Witness. Thirty or forty years. 

Mr. MosER. You were in your teens when you started? 

The Witness. I was 18 or 19. I am 61 now. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever use marijuana reefers? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Would you like to tell us how you got started on heroin ? 

The Witness. Just by the company I kept. 

Mr. MosER. Was it a group of people who were using it? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. They suggested that you use it ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And how long did it take you before you were hooked ? 

The Witness. Three days. 

Mr. Moser. And how much were you using when you finally got to 
the top of your habit ? 

The Witness. About four or five caps a day. 

Mr. Moser. How much did these cost, then ? 

The Witness. When I first started ? 

Mr. MosER. Yes. 

The Witness. About 50 or 75 cents a cap. 

Mr, MosER. How much are they now ? 

The Witness, $3. 

Mr. Moser. In Baltimore ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever get it anywhere else ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Just Baltimore? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And at what kind of places did you buy it, on the street, 
or did you go some place ? 

The Witness. In the street. 

Mr. Moser. Just buy it from a peddler? 

The Witness. Yes, 

Mr. Moser. In downtown Baltimore ? 

The Witness. Anywhere I heard they were selling it. 

Mr. Moser. The word would get around ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Do you find there is very much of it among young 
people ? 

The Witness. Well, quite a few. 

Mr. Moser. You started 30 years ago ? Have you been confined for 
it before? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Ever been off it before ? 

The Witness, Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 95 

Mr. MosKR. HoAv did you get off it before? 

The Witness. I was in the hospital. 

Mr. MosER. Yon had an operation or was sick? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And when yon were off it, then did they do anything for 
yon ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What did they do, give yon small quantities? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And did you ever try to go off voluntarily? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. MosER. You said you were using four or five caps a day when 
you reached the highest point ? 

The Witness. As many as I had the money to buy. 

Mr. MosER, Sometimes it would be 4 or 5 and sometimes maybe 20? 

The Witness. Twenty — no, not that many. 

Mr. MosER. It never got that high ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. MosER. Some people do, you know. 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Where did you get the money to buy it ? Did you work ? 

The Witness. No ; I didn't work. 

Mr. Moser. Did you have to steal to get it? 

The Witness. Sometimes I would. 

]\Ir. JNIosER. We are ]iot going to get you into trouble for it. We 
want to know wliat makes people do it and how they get their money. 
Do you think that you engaged in shoplifting and things like that 
for the purpose of getting money to buy drugs ? 

The Witness. Well, I did. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever have any regular job? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Was that ever enough to get the drugs? 

The Witness. My husband was living at that time. 

Mr. Moser. Did you work, too? You both worked? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. So then you had enough money to buy it? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. What we are trying to do is to find out if addiction 
causes young people principally to go and commit crime in order to 
get the money to buy the drugs. Perhaps you can help us on that. 
Do you think that is what happens to people who become addicted? 

The Witness. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. 

Mr. Moser. They do if they have to ; is that it ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. The ones who do do it do so because they cannot get the 
money any other place? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. If you had known before you took drugs at the start 
that it would have had the effect it did on you and that you would get 
so you would have to take it, would you have started it ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. That is, if you had been warned in time, you would 
not have started? 



96 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think that young people would be less likely to 
start if they were warned in time? 

The Witness. I think so. 

Mr. MosER. You think most of them do not know what they are 
getting in for? 

The Witness. Some of them will and some won't. Some don't care. 

Mr. MosER. Don't care what happens to them? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. MosER. Do you feel we could accomplish anything by telling 
the young people in one way or another that they are likely to ruin 
their lives by taking drugs? 

The Witness. Well, I do not know. So many people have told 
them, yet they wanted to take them just the same, the same as I did, 
just to try it. 

Mr. MosER. You have been on for 30 years. Do you think it is 
possible for you to get off? 

The Witness. I am going to try very hard. I am not getting any 
younger. 

Mr. MosER. Have you ever tried before? 

The Witness. Oh, yes, I have tried before. 

Mr. MosER. Tried voluntarily? 

The Witness. Not voluntarily ? 

Mr. MosER. Have you been confined before? 

The Witness. I have taken the cure in the hospital. 

Mr. MosER. Where did you do that ? 

The Witness. In Mercy Hospital, they gave me the cure. 

Mr. MosER. In Baltimore? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What did they do for you ? Did they just take you off? 

The Witness. They cut me down and gave me a little bit every day. 

Mr. MosER. Was that pretty hard? 

The Witness. No ; that was fine. 

Mr. Moser. They finally got you off? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How long did you stay off ? 

The Witness. About 6 months. 

Mr. Moser. How did you happen to get back on again ? 

The Witness. I do not know. I just did not feel like myself. I 
could not get myself together. 

Mr. MosER. So you started taking heroin again ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Needle? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you find that your veins stood up ? 

The Witness. Yes ; they stood up all right. 

Mr. Hepbrgn. Was your husband addicted, too? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Hepbrgn. Any other members of your family ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. I think that is all we have to ask of you. Thank you 
very much for coming in. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 97 

TESTIMONY OF MRS. , ALCOHOLIC 

The Chairman. We wanted to just talk to you and make your- 
self very comfortable. Would you be willing to talk to us? I want 
to explain to you that we do not want to ask you anything about any 
offenses that you might have been in or might be liable to. We are 
not anxious to have you say anything to get you into trouble or cause 
any difficulty whatsoever. We are not asking you to give any names 
or anything of that kind that you do not wish to, but just to talk with 
you about conditions generally. Would you be willing to do that? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. If you don't feel that you are satisfied or if you 
feel that we are trying to involve you in any wrongdoing, please tell 
us so, because we do not have that purpose at all in mind. 

The Witness. All right. 

The Chairman. Would you be willing to be sworn ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. In the presence of Almighty God do you solemnly 
swear in the testimony you are about to give you will tell the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 

The Witness. I do. 

The Chairman. Your full name is what ? 

The Witness. . 

The Chairman. Where is 3^our home ? 

The Witness. I have been in Washington 18 years. 

The Chairman. Where did you live before that ? 

The Witness. Luray, Va. 

The Chairman. How old are you ? 

The Witness. Thirty-two. 

The Chairman. We are particularly interested in the general use 
of narcotics by others. Would you be willing to give us some details 
and tell us Avhat you may know as to whether it is being used pretty 
widely ? 

The Witness. I never had the dealings with buying it, only that I 
took it a few times when it was given to me, but I never bought any 
or I never even could give it to myself. 

The Chairman. This is Mr. Moser who is the counsel for the com- 
mittee. He has some questions to ask you. 

Mr. MosER. You have never been hooked by heroin ? 

The Witness. No, sir. I never had the habit. 

Mr. Moser. Your ti'ouble has been largely with alcohol ? 

The Witness. Alcohol. 

Mr. MosER. And you have been in trouble on account of alcohol a 
good many times? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. I paid a lot of fines, but that is all con- 
sidered a record and it all mounts up. 

Mr. MosER. The times you were given heroin you were with other 
people and they gave it to you ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Were you under the influence of liquor at that time t 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Do you think they were taking advantage of you? 



98 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. I don't think they could have made me take it. I 
was sick and I felt I could forget about my troubles for a few minutes. 
If they could take it, I could. 

Mr. MosER. After you had the heroin, would it help you ? 

The Witness. I don't know whether it was the whisky or the heroin, 
but I was awfully sick after it. 

Mr. MosER. So you did not really like it ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosEK. Did you And there were a lot of people using it ? 

The Witness. I met a lot of people in jail who were there for 
narcotics, but they wouldn't talk to me, being an alcoholic. 

Mr. MosER. You weren't one of their crowd ? 

The Witness. I wasn't one of their crowd, but when I would leave 
and maybe I would go into the beer place or some place lili:e that, like 
the ones who brought me over here — I don't know because I just met 
them in this beer place that morning. 

Mr. MosER. Are you in here for having a needle in your possession ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. Let me ask you about the alcoholic business. That is 
something you can't help, isn't it ? 

The Witness. It is sickness, I think. 

Mr. MosER. Have you had any contact with Alcoholics Anonymous ? 

The Witness. I was under the Westburg Clinic as a voluntary 
patient. Dr. Zapola was the doctor I was under. In February I 
was getting ready to take it and to take a new treatment for alcohol, 
whicli they were going to give me. They put me through blood tests. 
I had gotten a slip to get a chest X-ray, and then I came over here. 

Mr. MosER. The break-up of your home was caused by the alcohol, 
I suppose ? 

The Witness. I have been away from my husband for 2 years, but 
it has been longer than that. I served so much time in jail. 

Mr. MosER. Mostly for alcoholism ? 

The Witness. Sometimes I deserved to be in there, but there were 
other times when they would just see you in the same place and I have 
had them say, "Are you ready to go?" and there you would go. The 
judge would just give you a stiff sentence. 

Mr. MosER. Would you rather we didn't question you any more? 

The Witness. No ; I don't mind. 

Mr. MosER. Because I think we are upsetting you a little bit, and 
we don't want to. 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. How did you get started on alcoholism? 

The Witness. How ? 

Mr. Moser. Did you just drink with other people? 

The Witness. I drank with other people and it got more and more 
all the time. As I said, I would be away from my husband longer 
than 2 years, but it has been 2 years since I have not seen him. When 
I would get locked up 

Last year I went before the judge twice and once I got 5 months 
for drunk and disorder. Then I was out and I got pinched again. I 
got 4 months. So I did 4 months and something for the 5 and 3 
months and 15 days for the 4, and when I got out I was sick. I just 
felt like I had nobody, no job. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX IX-TERSTATE COMMERCE 99 

Mv. MosER. You just had no place to go, and you felt sort of lost? 

The Witness. No; 1 have no place to go. I just wasn't satisfied 
without working. They had told me until I got myself built up— 
I have a female condition for which I have been to the hospital since 
I have been here and have been operated on — and they told me to 
take it easy, but I went to this clinic on my own to fight it, but you 
see, I did iiot have any lawyers in court, and I could not explain to 
the judge just what I Avanted to and they found the needle, but I 
took that for a reason. I had gotten it from a dentist. J^Jaybe you 
don't want to hear all of this. 

Mr. ]\IosER. We are not concerned about how you happened to get 
in here. What we are concerned with is the problem of alcoholism 
and how you get started on it and what might be done about it. 

The Witness. They told me — the psychiatrist did. They have a 
good one in this school I was a patient in, and they just said I had 
just done too much time. 

Mr. jNIosee. You find you cannot get a job when you get out? 

The Witness. Well, I can get a job, but it was just at that time, 
when I was not supposed to be working, but I would just rather have 
a job some place where I do not know anybody. 

Mr. JNIoser. You find that you go back to alcohol when you get de- 
pressed and get alone, or is it from being with other people ? 

The Witness. It is the old friends that you get with and you say if 
they can take one, you can take one. One calls for another, and some- 
times I have deserved it. 

Mr. Moser. The time that you have gotten ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming in. 

TESTIMONY OF MRS. , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. Would you just talk with us for a little while? 
W^ould you be willing to talk to us about matters, nothing that would 
involve you in anything i We are not here to give you any trouble or 
to cause you any difiiculty. Would you be willing to talk to us ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Would you be sworn ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In the presence of Almighty God, do you solemnly 
swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth ? 

The Witness. I do. 

The Chairman. W^e do not want to have you feel that we are press- 
ing you or forcing you to talk about anything you do not want to. 
We just wanted to ask you some questions about the situation, but 
not with any view to having any charges against you of any kind. Do 
you understand ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. With that being the case, would you be willing to 
talk to us and answer some questions ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. This is Mr. Moser, the lawyer for the committee. 

Mr. Moser. Your maiden name was ? 



100 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Yes, sir, 

Mr. MosER. And you are married to a man named ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. ISIosER. You know ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. You and he were together at the time you were arrested ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. We would like to find out from you and the other wit- 
nesses that we have talked to the things that indicate how they hap- 
pened to get on the habit and what caused them to do so. Our princi- 
pal interest is in finding out if there is some way we can keep other 
people from starting, especially youngsters. What we want you to 
help us to figure out is how to keep youngsters from getting on it. We 
felt, if we talked to people like you who have been through the mills, 
we could get some suggestions from you. How long have you been 
on heroin? 

The Witness. About a year. 

Mr. MosER. When did you first start? 

The Witness. Last year in May. 

Mr. MosER. Just a year ago? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. How old are you now ? 

TJie Witness. I Avill be 23 next month. 

Mr. MosER. How did you happen to start? Did some friends of 
yours suggest it ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You do not have to tell me. I do not want to involve 
him, but he has told us about his case. Did the friends who offered 
it to you charge you or give it to you free ? 

The Witness. Gave it to me. 

Mr. Moser. Did he sell it? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. He just used it? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. He suggested you use it because he was using it? 

The Witness. I was smoking marijuana first and he said to try 
something better. 

Mr. Moser. How long had you been smoking marijuana reefers? 

The Witness. I had been smoking it for about 4 months, something 
like that. 

Mr. Moser. You had just started? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You didn't use them in school ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Did you use them because other people you knew were 
using them ? 

The Witness. I was drinking first. 

Mr. Moser. You were drinking pretty heavily ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And then you started using reefers because you thought 
that w^ould give you a better feeling? 

The Witness. Drinking was making me sick. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 101 

]\Ir. MosER. You found you gave up drinkiug when you started to 
use reefers? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You did not drink at all ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Did you hnd you were addicted to reefers? 

The Witness. I wasn't addicted. 

Mr. MosER. You just took them occasionally for the feeling? 

The AYitness. Yes, sir. 

]\Ir. MosKR. And then were a lot of your friends using heroin? 

I'he Witness. Not my friends. 

Mr. MdSER. People you knew? 

The Witness. People I knew. 

Mr. MosER. People you went around with ? 

The Witness. I didn't go around with them. 

Mr. MosER. But this one man that suggested it to you, you saw 
something of him? You w^ent around with him a little bit? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And then after you got started on it, how long before 
you were hooked ? 

The Witness. About the third time I used it. 

Mr. MosER. You mean after that you were sick if you didn't have it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Just after the third shot ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. That is pretty fast. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. How often did you have to take it to avoid being sick ? 

The Witness. You see, I was snorting it in my nose and I used it 
twice and then the third day I didn't use it. I had headaches. 

Mr. MosER. You said you started off by snorting and after you had 
snorted three times^ ■ 

The Witness. I snorted twice. The next day I didn't have it and 
after I took some I didn't have any headache any more. 

Mr. MosER. You had a headache the next day, but after taking it, 
you did not have the headache any more ? 

The Witness. Yes. I had never had a headache before. 

Mr. MosER. After snorting it twice, you had a headache and then 
you got rid of the headache by taking some more ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you start, then, to take it with the needle? 

The Witness. No, sir ; about a month after. 

Mr. MosER. You snorted for a month before you took the needle ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. When you started on the needle did you do it yourself 
or someone did it for you ? 

The Witness. Somebody did it for me the first time. 

Mr. MosER. Did he give it to you the first time? 

The Witness. He gave it to me. 

Mr. MosER. So it was given to you for quite a while ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Then you had to start buying it ? 

The Witness. Sometimes I would. 



102 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr, MosER. Sometimes you bought it and sometimes it was given 
to you ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Was it the same man who was giving it to you all the 
time or different people? 

The Witness. Different people. 

Mr. MosER. People who were using it that you were associating 
with; is that right? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you go to any places where a number of peo- 
ple were taking it at the same time, parties ? 

The Witness. No, sir; not exactly. I did not go anywhere. I 
probably went to a place where all addicts would be, but most of them 
woulcl not be using it at the same time. 

The Chairman. But you did know that most of all of the people 
there were addicts? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How would you know that? 

The Witness. You can tell by one of them using it. 

The Chairman. How many people would be around at that place? 

The Witness. Mostly there would be six or seven, no more than 
about seven. 

Mr. MosER. They were all doing it together ? 

The Witness. We did not do it together unless they had two hypo- 
dermic needles and two would use it at a time. 

Mr. MosER. Did they have it there with them or did you buy it 
there? At these groups of six or seven did you buy it there or did 
people come there with it ? 

The Witness. Mostly the places that you would buy them wouldn't 
let you use it there. You would have to take it somewhere else, home 
or wherever you would use it. 

Mr. MosER. How much did you pay for it ? 

The Witness. $3 a cap unless you would buy like 10 or 15 at a time. 
If they knew you really needed it, they would let you have it cheaper^ 
$1.50 a cap, if you bought 10 or 15. 

Mr. Moser. How many were you using a day when you came in here? 

The Witness. One a day. 

Mr. Moser. That was only $3? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever go to Washington for it ? 

The Witness. No, sir. I never went to Washington. 

The Chairman. Did you go to Washington for anything else and 
while you were there hear about others getting it or using it? 

The Witness. Yes ; I heard about using it, but I never bought it 
there. 

The Chairman. What was the price of it in Washington ? 

The Witness. $1, $1.50. 

The Chairman. Was it as good stuff over in Washington for $1 or 
$1.50 as you got in Baltimore for $3? 

The Witness. You couldn't say because it was according to who had 
it. Some would want to make more money out of it and you would go 
to somebody else who was really nice. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever go to New York? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 103 

The Witness. Yes ; I went to New York. 

Mr. MosER. Did you use heroin when you were in New York? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Did you buy it there ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. How much did it cost ? 

The Witness. $1 a cap. 

]Mr. MosER. And did you take it up there with groups of people 
or just by yourself? 

The Witness. By myself. 

Mr. MosER. You went up there with somebody else, I suppose, and 
they used it too ? 

The Witness. No, I went by myself. 

Mv. MosE*R. What did you do for money to buy it? Were you 
working ? 

The Witness. I didn't use that much. Wlien I went up there, I 
went to see a girl friend at the time. She knew somebody there and 
she bought it. 

Mr. Moser. She was using it, too ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. MosER. But she knew where to go for it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever have to steal anything to get money for it ? 

The Witness. No, sir ; I never stole anything. 

Mr. MosER. Did some of the people who used it have to steal to get 
the money ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. A lot of them did ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 
_ Mr. MosER. Did a lot of them work, too, at regular jobs? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Were there any who did not work at a regular job who 
just stole to get their money ? 

The Witness. A whole lot of them were boosting downtown. 

Mr. Moser, Isn't boosting shoplifting? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. Did you get the impression that they were boosting 
entirely, did not work at all, but that was their only source of income 1 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think they would have done it if they had not had 
the habit? They were just boosting to support their habit, weren't 
they ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. If you had known, when you started to take drugs, 
that you would ever have gotten hooked and it would have cost you a 
lot of money and you might liave ended up in jail, and so forth, would 
you have started ? 

The Witness. I sort of knew about before I started to use it. 

]Mr. Moser. You knew it was dangerous? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You knew you might get hooked ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You just took a chance, in other words ? 



104 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. I figured I was strong enough to control myself to a 
certain extent. 

Mr. MosEK. You still think you are? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

JVlr. MosER. You think you can stop ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. From knowing the other girls who have used it, 
do you think that the average person is able to stop if she wants to ? 

The Witness. If they want to. 

The Chairman. You think so? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Do you think if the information would be given 
to the public generally and the younger people particularly that it 
would be a good thing or a bad thing to let tliem know about it ? 

The Witness. It would be a good thing to let them know about it. 

The Chairman. Wliy ? 

The Witness. Because I don't think narcotics are a good thing to 
play with. When you use narcotics, you have a feeling you never 
had before and you do not feel like the same person. You are a 
changed person altogether. 

Mr. MosER. And that is bad ? 

The Witness. Anybody who uses it, they can see a change in them- 
selves. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think people would be less likely to try it if 
they knew that ? 

The Witness. They would be what ? 

Mr. Moser. Less likely to take it, less likely to start? 

The Witness. That is according to the person. 

Mr. Moser. Some people would start even if they knew it was 
dangerous ? 

The Witness. I do not know, sir. 

Mr. Moser. I guess that is all. You have been very helpful. 

The Chairman. We are certainly obliged to you. 

TESTIMONY OF MISS , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. I just want to ask you if you would be willing to 
talk with us. 

The Witness. I guess I will have to. 

The Chairman. We want you to do it if you want to. We do not 
want you to be forced to do anything. 

The Witness. I do not have anything to hide. 

The Chairman. That is fine. Would you be willing to be sworn to 
tell the truth? 

The Witness. Certainly. 

The Chairman. In the presence of Almighty God, do you solemnly 
swear in the testimony you are about to give to tell the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth ? 

The Witness. I do. 

The Chairman. We want to explain who we are and what we 
are here for. We are from the Senate committee and we do not want 
to ask you anything that will get you into any trouble or to cause you 
any difficulty. As a matter of fact, we don't want to ask you any- 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 105 

thing about any particular otTenses or anything of that kind, but 
just generally about the use of narcotics. Particularly, would you 
be willing to tell us what you know about that? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. This is Mr. Moser, counsel for the committee, and 
Mr. Moser, if you will be good enough to take it up, with the witness. 

Mr. Moser. We are trying to find out about narcotics generally, 
what makes people become addicts and how they start, and so forth, 
hoping to try to find some way of keeping young people from start- 
ing and to see if there are any laws that ought to be passed or any- 
thing like that. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How old are you now ? 

The Witness. Forty-one. 

Mr. Moser. When did you start using it? 

The Witness. In 1937. 

Mr. Moser. So that is about 14 years. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Fourteen years that you have been an addict? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. Did you start with marijuana? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Never used reefers ? 

The Witness. I don't like it. 

Mr. Moser. You just used it 

The Witness. When I was young I was with a show. I learned 
practically all that when I was on the road. I never liked it. It makes 
you too nervous and jumpy. 

Mr. Moser. How did you happen to start with heroin? With the 
other people in the show doing it? 

The Witness. No; when I started to use heroin I had been sick. 
I had ptomaine poisoning. I went to F'reedman's Hospital. I con- 
tinued to have pains. The fellow I was going with at the time — ^I 
never knew enough about heroin or anything like that — he was up on; 
it, but I didn't know. He decided to give me some to stop the pain. 
I didn't know what I was taking. He gave it to me and it did stop the 
pain. 

Mr. Moser. With a needle? 

The Witness. Yes ; and it did stop the pain. Every time I had a 
pain, he would give it to me. Wlien I did find out what I was using, 
I was roped in then. 

Mr. Moser. You were sick without it, then ? 

The Witness. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Moser. Have you ever beeii off it ? 

The Witness. Yes ; I have been off it for a while. 

Mr. Moser. Why did you go off it? 

The Witness. When I was arrested I had to go off it. 

Mr. Moser. When you were first arrested ? 

The Witness. Thai is right. 

Mr. Moser. How long ago was that? 

The Witness. In 1948. 

Mr. Moser. And how long were you confined ? 

The Witness. Forty-five days. 



106 ORGANIZED CRIME IN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. But as soon as you got out, did you go back on ? 

The Witness. Not right back on, but I eventually got around to it 
again. 

Mr. MosER. How much was it costing you when you were taking 
the most? 

The Witness. $15, $20, $25 a day, whatever money you have you 
spend it on the stuff. If you have $10 you can make out with $10. 
If you have $20, you have to spend $20 before you think you have 
enough. That is the way it goes. 

Mr. Moser. Were you traveling around the country ? 

The Witness. No ; no further than Washington. 

Mr. MosER. But you were in a show for a while ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Then you traveled? 

The Witness. Yes. When I was traveling with the show I didn't 
know anything about the heroin or anything like that. I know about 
reefers, but I did not know about heroin. 

Mr. MosER. Have you worked since 1937? 

The Witness. Oh, my soul, yes. I should say so. 

Mr. MosER. At steady jobs? 

The Witness. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Moser. Even though you were on? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And did you ever lose any jobs because you were on? 

The Witness. The job that I lost was the job I wanted most. I 
was working out at Hillside, Md., at the Pig-in-a-Pit. Mr. Pull- 
man was the man I was working for. I was working there during 
tlie wartime, doing a man's job. We were allowed to have our health 
card. I took another girl down there for a job and she told them I 
was an addict. So they decided to bring the doctors in from Fort 
Meade to take the blood tests. So rather than be mixed up, I walked 
off the job. I know the moment they found I was an addict, I couldn't 
handle food. I just walked away. 

Mr. MosER. That was when you were sorry you were an addict? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. After that, did you have trouble getting a job? 

The Witness. I had lots of trouble. I went to work on Minnesota 
Avenue, NE., for Mr. Dorgan, as a short-order cook. I worked there 
for a while. Finally I had to get off. When you are an addict, it 
just keeps you running. You just have to keep running because the 
minute they find out you are an addict, you know what is going to 
happen, and rather than have all that scandal, you walk away. 

Mr. MosER. Was it hard to get heroin? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Buy it anywhere? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Buy it on the street? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Is it mostly from peddlers on the street ? 

The Witness. Mostly peddlers on the street. They know the ad- 
dicts better than we know them. They will approach you. They will 
tell you they have stuff and tell you what the price is. It is not hard 
^o get 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 107 

The Chairman. Does the price vary at all ? 

The Witness. Sometimes one person will claim it is a little better, 
but it ain't better. They v,i\\ ask you 25 cents more. It is the same 
stuff you have been paying $2.50 for. One kind you use is sup- 
posed to be pure. That costs you $2.50 a capsule. Then there is an- 
other. We call it sugar. You can get that for $1 apiece. But most 
people are trying to get the best they can because they are stuck with 
abscesses so bad. 

The Chairman. What about around the places where they were 
selling it? 

The Witness. I have to go around to get it. 

The Chairman. Would you stay there long enough to see whether 
other people came ? 

The Witness. I have been in places. That is how I came to know 
so many places. That is how I came to know so many people. That 
was by being in those places. I didn't laiow them until I was in those 
particular places. 

The Chairman. How many would you say would be in there at one 
time ? 

The Witness. According to how big a place they had. 

The Chairman. What was the largest, would you say? 

The Witness., I have seen 10 or 15 in one time. 

The Chairman. Would anybody come fi^om out of the city, like in 
Baltimore, to get it, and other places? 

The Witness. Yes. Plenty of people from Baltimore would get it. 

Mr. Moser. These places were in Washington? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. Did they seem to stay in the same place or did tley 
change ? 

The Witness. They changed quite a bit. They ar liable to be 
here this week and next week they will be somewhere else. 

The Chairman. How would you know where they would be? 

The Witness. The connections were on the street. They would tell 
you such ai>d such people moved to such and such a place and not to 
tell anybody, but that you could pick it up. They have the stuff. 

Mr. MosER. You are sorry that you are an addict, aren't you ? 

The Witness. Absolutely sorry. 

Mr. Moser. And if you had known in the start what it would have 
done to you, you never would have started ? 

The Witness. If I could tell the world, I would be happy to tell 
the world what it really does to you. 

Mr. Moser. You would like to tell the world that once you get 
hooked, your life is ruined ? 

The Witness. That is right. I feel sorry for the kids. I am 
getting bitter against dope now because I read the papers about the 
school children. That makes me sick all over, to think about it, be- 
cause, when I got mine, I wasn't quite so old myself, but I have come 
to the age now where I cannot wear down these penitentiaries. If 
I keep using that stuff, the penitentiary is going to wear me down. 
I do not want that to happen. I am finished. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. 



108 ORGANIZED CRIME m INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

TESTIMONY OF MISS , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman, Would you just sit there and be comfortable ? We 
would just like to talk to you for a few minuts. You wouldn't mind, 
would you?. 

The Witness. Of course not. 

The Chairman. We are not here to cause you any trouble and we 
are not here to ask you about any matters that would get you into any 
difficulty, but rather to talk about the situation generally. Do you 
understand that? Would you be willing to tell us and just answer 
some questions about matters we are interested in? 

The Witness. If I can. 

The Chairman. Truthfully, I am sure. 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Would you be sworn ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. In the presence of Almighty God do you solemnly 
swear in the testimony you are about to give to tell tlie truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth ? 

The Witness. I do. 

The Chairman. How old are you ? 

The Witness. I will be 23 the 12th of August. 

The Chairman. Where have you been living ? 

The Witness. I have been living in Washington, D. C. 

The Chairman. For how long? 

The Witness. Practically all my life. I was brought there when I 
was a kid. 

^he Chairman. Just what family have you ? What brothers and 
sisters ? 

The Witness. I have one whole brother and I have four half brothers 
and sisters. ' 

The Chairman. This is Mr. IVIoser, who is the lawyer for our com- 
mittee, and I would like to have him ask you some questions and have 
you answer them in order to get some information about the situ- 
ation generally. 

Mr. Moser. We are trying to get information about addiction 
so that we- can find out whether something should be done about it, 
to try to get young people to keep from starting, keep anybody from 
starting, and see whether any laws should be passed or what should 
be done. We are talking to people like you in this institution because 
you have been through the mill and had the addiction and may know 
something about it. 

Did you ever use marijuana? Did you start with that? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you use it when you were in school at all? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Just after you got out? 

The AYiTNEss, Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you use it a lot or just occasionally ? 

The Witness. Occasionally. 

Mr. Moser. Just at parties, and so forth, to get a good feeling ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever feel you had to have marijuana? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 109 

The "Witness. No, 

Mr. MosER. Just took it when you felt like it? 

The Witness. No, I do not think it is a habit. 

Mr. MosER. How did you happen to switch over to heroin? 

The Witness. Boys and girls, 

Mr. MosER. Some of those you were going around with? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Some of them were using it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. JMosER. They suggested you do it? 

The Witness. No, I saw them using it and I wanted to use it and see 
what it was like. 

Mr. jNIoser. How long ago did you start? 

The Witness. April of last year. 

]Mr. ^losER. How much of a habit did you have? How many a day,, 
roughly ? 

The Witness. I used about (> a day. I snorted it, 

Mr. MosER. You started snorting i 

The Witness. Yes, 

Mv. MosER. You switched to the needle ? 

The Witness. Just twice in my life. 

Mr. MosER. That was along toward the end? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you jn-efer the needle when you started it? 

The Witness. No. 

]\rr. Moser. Snorting was all right? 

The Witness. Yes. 

jNIr. Moser. You used 6 a day ? How much did they cost you ? i 
■ The Witness. $2. 

Mr. Moser. That was in Washington ? 

The Witness, Yes. 

Mr. Moser. That would be $12 a day, maybe ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Do you have trouble getting the money for it ? 

The Witness. Yes ; sometimes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you work regularly ? 

The Witness. Sometimes. 

Mr. MosER. And you were living at home with 3' our mother and your- 
child? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Living alone? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And did you have enough money to support your habit 
or did you have to go steal sometimes? 

The Witness. No ; I did not steal it, but at all times I did not have 
enough to support it. 

Mr. MosER. What did you do to get along? Did you get along 
without it? 

The Witness. No ; I didn't get along without it. 

Mr. Moser. Somebody gave it to you ? 

The Witness. No ; I went out, as girls do, on the street. 

Mr. Moser. x\nd in that way you would get enough money to buy it?; 

The Witness. Yes. 

85277— 51— pt. 14 8 



110 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. Would you have done that if you didn't need the money 
for your habit? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. MosER. That was just to get money? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. iVnd the habit really drove you to that? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did a lot of the girls do that to get money for their 
habit? 

The Witness. I imagine so. There were quite a few of them 
around. 

Mr. MosER. Some of the people you knew did that, I suppose? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you find it hard to get the drug when you needed 
it? Could you get it anywhere? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Where did you buy it ? Did you buy it on the street ? 

The Witness. Yes, I never cared to go into a house.' 

The Chairman. Were there any houses you could have gone into ? 

The Witness. There w^ere quite a few. 

Mr. MosER. Your friends would go there, but you never did? 

The Witness. No. There would be boys standing around on the 
•corners with it. 

Mr. MosER. They would sell it to you on the corner ? 

The Witness. Sure. 

Mr. MosER. Most of the people we have talked to used the needle. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How come you did not use it? 

The Witness. I did not like the marks and you get abscess;es behind 
them, and I did not care for them. I was getting along all right by 
snorting. As it is, there is a better feeling by using the needle. 

Mr. MosER. If you had known before you started that it might 
drive you to going out on the street and things like that to get money, 
would you have started? 

The Witness. No ; I do not think so. 

Mr. MosER. Do you feel that it was a bad thing to start ? 

The Witness. Of cours-e, it is a bad thing to start. I know it now, 
but I didn't know it then. 

Mr. MosER. You didn't know it at that time, what a bad thing it was 
^oing to be ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think other people would be less likely to start 
if they knew what they were in for? 

The Witness. I do not think they would. I know quite a few that 
never used it before and even came to me and asked me to give it to 
them. I refused to give it to them, although I was stuck in it, and 
it was rather hard for me to get out. I never gave anybody any that 
■didn't use it. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think the ones who asked you would be less 
likely if they knew ? 

The Witness. They were like I was. They were curious. They 
wanted to know what it was. Tliose who used it talk about it, that 
it was nice and the feeling was nice, and the person gets curious. Not 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 111 

knowing wlien they get into it, it will be hard to get out of it, they 
take it. 

Mr. MosER. And also that if they got into it, they would not have 
enough money for it. 

Tlie Witness. No ; they wouldn't. 

INIr. MosER. And then they would have to do anytliing to get the 
money ; is that right ? 

The Witness. I guess so. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. MosER. That is all we want to ask you. Thank you very much 
for coming in. 

(Whereupon, at 12 : 40 p. m., the hearing adjourned.) 



INVESTIGATION OF OEGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE 
COMMERCE 



TUESDAY, JUNE 12, 1951 

United States Senate, 

Special Committee To 
Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Lexington^ Ky. 
executive session 

The committee met, pursuant to call of the chairman, at 10 a. m., 
in the United States Public Health Service Hospital, Lexington, Ky., 
Senator Herbert R. O'Conor (chairman) presiding. 

Present : Senatoi-s O'Conor, Hunt, and Wiley. 

Also present : Richard G. Moser, chief counsel ; James M. Hepbron, 
administrative assistant; Dr. Victor H. Vogel, medical officer in 
charge. United States Public Health Service Hospital ; and Dr. Harris 
Isbell, director of research, United States Public Health Service 
Hospital, Lexington, Ky. 

The Chairman. All right, gentlemen. 

Dr. VoGEL. I think it might be well to start off with a film that we 
have here. Technically it is not too good, but it will h\st 30 minutes 
and it will give you a better picture of the medical aspects of drug 
addiction, particularly during the withdrawal phase, and it will give 
you a better idea as to what takes place than possibly hours of talking 
would. 

Dr. Isbell? 

Dr. Isbell. As Dr. Vogel told you before, this film was made be- 
cause most physicians seldom have opportunities to observe drug 
addicts very closely and, therefore, are generally not familiar with 
the clinical manifestations of the intoxication of these various drugs, 
and more particularly with the manifestations of withdrawal from 
some of them. 

All of the scenes in this picture are real. They were all made on 
patients who voluntarily agreed to permit movies to be taken. 

It was felt that it would be worth while to make a motion picture 
which would, insofar as possible, show the manifestations of intoxi- 
cations with the various drugs which are commonly used by addicts on 
the North American Continent and the withdrawal syndromes which 
occur following abrupt withdrawal of some of these drugs. 

As I said before, the persons who served as subjects for this movie 
were all morphine addicts serving sentences for violation of the Harri- 
son Narcotic Act. All of them volunteered for the experiments por- 
traved in the movie, and all were familiar with the effects of the 

113 



114 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

various drugs used. Every possible precaution was taken to prevent 
any serious harm to any of the patients. 

We just took different scenes, and we put this motion picture to- 
gether for exhibition to physicians. I think you will find that it will 
give you a better and more clear idea of the effects of these drugs 
and the withdrawal from ^ome than any other way that we could do it. 

In observing this motion picture, one must keep in mind that only 
examples of intoxications with one drug are shown. Actually, addicts 
frequently take more than one drug simultaneously and, from a 
pharmacological point of view, clinical addictions are usually mixed. 

We must also keep in mind that the most important aspect of 
addiction — the psychiatric — cannot be shown in a motion picture of 
this kind. The personality defects which underlie addiction cannot 
be photographed. They could be portrayed in a movie only by using 
professional actors. 

Before we can understand a subject it is necessary to define it. 
The definition of addiction has been a very controversial matter and, 
in the past, the definition which had the widest acceptance was that 
framed by pharmacologists: 

Addiction is a condition developed by the effects of the repeated 
actions of a drug such that its use becomes necessary and cessation 
of the drug causes mental or physical disturbances. 

Under the terms of this formulation, a drug was not regarded as 
addicting unless a definte withdrawal syndrome was observed after 
discontinuance of the drug. However satisfactory this definition 
may be to pharmacologists, it is not acceptable to physicians, nurses, 
law-enforcement officers, and social workers who actually have to 
handle addicts. If the occurrence of a withdrawal syndrome were the 
only important factor in addition, solution of the addiction problem 
would be very simple. One would simply provide addicts with their 
drugs, so that their physical dependence would be continuously 
satisfied. 

Actually, we are concerned about addiction, not because individuals 
who use drugs become physically dependent on the drugs, but because 
abuse of the drugs is harmful to the individual and to society. 

For example, no physical dependence is developed during chronic 
intoxication with cocaine. In spite of this, intoxication with cocaine 
is far more undesirable and dangerous than is chronic intoxication 
with morphine. 

Furthermore, cocaine, both legally and in common parlance, is 
regarded as an addicting drug, and if it were excluded from this class 
of drugs, as it would have to be under the terms of the pharmacological 
definition, terrific confusion would result. Benzedrine and marijuana 
represent other examples. 

Now, if you will go ahead and start running the film, please. 

The addicting drugs roughly are divided into two classes, primarily 
on the basis of their effect on the behavior of the addict. They are 
stimulants and depressants. 

Stimulants keep you awak:^ and deprof^sants are drugs that tend, 
initially at least, to make one sleepy and drowsy. 

Now, the stimulants are cocaine, benzedrine, dexedrine, and mesca- 
line. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 115 

The most important of these drugs historically and statistically, 
is cocaine which is used by the South American Indians. They chew 
it chronically day in and day out. In the United States the pattern is 
quite different. The drug is not taken orally — sometimes it is 
sniffed — but usually it is injected intravenously. 

Now, cocaine, when taken intravenously produces a tremendous 
ecstatic sensation which, apparently, is so pleasing to the individual 
that he will take a dose of cocaine over and over again at very short 
intervals, gradually raising the amount he is taking as he goes along. . 
Now, as lie goes ahead taking these doses of cocaine, the toxic effects 
accumulate. 

I might say here that drug addiction is a condition in which an 
individual abuses a drug to such an extent that the individual or 
society, or both, are harmed. 

Drug addiction is a matter of personalities more than of drugs. 
Emotionally stable persons seldom become addicted. 

Acceptance of this basic fact is necessary to an understanding of 
drug addiction. The most common types of personality defects which 
underlie addiction are the psychoneuroses and the character disorders. 
Emotionally normal individuals seldom ever become afflicted. 

For example, each year in the United States millions of people re- 
ceive morphine preoperatively and postoperatively. Only a few of 
these individuals become addicted. In our experience at Lexington, 
less than 5 percent of addicts become addicted as a result of medical 
administration of a drug. 

Neurotic persons aiul imnuiture pleasure-seeking individuals are 
likely to become addicted if introduced to drugs under proper 
conditions. 

The method in which a susceptible individual is introduced to drugs 
is of great importance in determining whether he will become addicted 
to it. As stated above, addiction as a result of medical administra- 
tion is extremely rare with any drug, including morphine. However, 
if a susceptible individual is introduced to the drug by his associates, 
addiction is very likely to occur. In other words, like many con- 
tagious diseases addiction spreads from person to person. 

All addicting drugs affect the nervous system. They may be 
roughly divided into depressants and stinndants, as I said before, and 
it also may seem strange to you that two general classes of drugs which 
addicts use have diametrically opposed actions, but this is actually the 
case. 

Frequently stimulant and depressant drugs are used simultaneously. 
Addicts probably take depressants in order to obtain relief of anxiety 
or nervous tension arising from their psychiatric defects. Stimu- 
lants are taken primarily to obtain a thrill, to relieve fatigue, or to 
lessen mental depression. 

As I said, the stimulants are cocaine, mescaline, and benzedrine or 
amphetamine. 

In this class of substances, cocaine is the oldest, the most dangerous, 
and the most favored drug. Since amphetamine, dexeclrine, and 
other sympathomimetic amines are now easily available, and more 
easily available than cocaine, addiction to these substances is becoming 
rather common. 



116 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mescaline, so far as is known, is used only by the Indians in the 
southwestern United States and does not represent a major problem in 
addiction. 

The depressants are alcohol, all of the sedative drugs, especially 
the barbiturates, or morphine-like drugs and marijuana. 

In the sense of continued chronic intoxication, addiction to this 
class of drugs is far more common than is addiction to the stimulants. 
Alcohol is, of course, the greatest cause of addiction in the United 
States. It, however, represents such a special subject that it will not 
be discussed. Addiction to barbiturates is becoming common and, in 
many ways, addiction to barbiturates is far more serious than is 
addiction to morphine. 

United States addicts use the stimulants as spree drugs. They are 
seldom taken continuously unless a sedative drug is used concomitantly. 

The reason for intermittent use of the stimulant drugs will become 
apparent in the scenes which follow. The effects of the stimulants 
are so unpleasant and so dangerous that an individual cannot continue 
to use them unless the effects are partly suppressed by some antidote, 
such as morphine or the barbiturates. 

Cocaine is one of the oldest of the addicting drugs. In South Amer- 
ica, it is used by the Indians who chew the leaves of the cocoa plant, 
together with lime, in the form of calcium hydroxide. Many Indians 
take the drug only during periods of severe muscular strain, or under 
conditions of very heavy physical labor; others use it continuously. 

Cocaine suppresses hunger and relieves fatigue, so that if taken 
chronically, malnutrition results. 

Most North American addicts take cocaine intravenously at very 
short intervals. 

In the past in the United States, cocaine was most generally taken as 
a snuff. Now, however, most United States addicts take the drug 
intravenously. When so administered, the drug produces an ecstatic 
sensation which apparently has features resembling those of a sexual 
orgasm. In order to recapture this rapturous sensation, the addict 
injects the drug again and again at very short intervals. As the dose 
is repeated, serious toxic signs gradually accumulate. 

This scene shows a patient, Tony, sitting quietly. In this scene 
we see the patient before he began to take cocaine. Notice that he is 
calm and relaxed, talking and joking with the cameraman. His tendon 
reflexes are normal. You now see him receiving a dose of cocaine 
intravenously. He began wdth injections of '20 milligrams of cocaine 
-hydrochloride spaced at approximately HO-niinute intervals. 

After 12 hours' time he was taking injections of 50 milligrams of 
cocaine hydrochloride every 5 or 10 minutes and had taken a total dose 
of more than 2,000 milligrams intravenously. 

Cocaine produces a transient sense of ecstacy, but the toxic effects 
outlast the euphoric effects and the addict becomes extremely nervous. 

Here you see the patient shaking. As the addict continues to take 
these large doses of cocaine, he becomes extremely nervous, and begins 
to whisper rather than speak in a normal tone of voice, he has a marked 
tremor, and at times becomes extremely rigid. This phenomenon is 
termed "freezing" and, since cocaine is a convulsant drug, probably 
represents the earliest sign of impending convulsions. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 117 

The tendon reflexes are increased, mydriasis, hypertension, and 
sweating are present. Here yon see him sitting in a chair. These 
signs are due, in part, to direct cortical stimulation and, in part, to 
the sympathomimetic effects. 

Optical liallucinations occur. 

Here you can see that tliis num has taken about 2 grams of cocaine, 
in 1() hours, and you see him almost in a preconvulsive state. When an 
addict has taken 2 grams of cocaine, he begins to experience hallucina- 
tions wliich are chiefly visual in type. If it is taken in sufficient doses 
it will produce convulsions. 

You will notice his strained face, and the rigidity and the twitching 
of his limbs. You will notice the great increase in his tendon reflexes. 
His pupils are dilated, and his pulse is very rapid, and he is sweating 
excessively. All aiul all it is a very tremendous i)icture, and when one 
sees this picture one wonders why man will do this to himself. 

Now, as the effects of the drug continue to increase the individual 
develops hallucinations and delusions. In other words, he is tem- 
porarily insane. Here you see this man seeing nonexistent butterflies, 
and he is following them around. He is pointing one out to me, and 
he is trying to catch one. There, now he has caught him and he has 
handed him to me. 

This movie runs backward at this point, and it appears as though 
I caught the butterfly and handed it to him, and I don't like that. 
[Laughter.] 

Here he sees bugs crawling on his skin. This is one of the common 
delusions that occurs during cocaine intoxication. There, you see, he 
has caught the bug and handed him to me. 

A great many of these hallucinations or delusions are misinterpre- 
tations. They may see a small wliisp of dust on the floor, and will 
think it is a bug, they will jump, and stop to examine it and then go 
on. If he sees a shadow in a glass, he believe that it is a person who 
is watching him and possibly attempting to kill him. 

Quite characteristically, the type of person we are showing, here, 
develops paranoid delusions, and the addict believes that he is being 
watched by a detective whose name is "Steve." There, you see, the 
detective is watching him, he sees him in the door and jumps away 
from the door. 

They feel that a detective is peeping in on them through every crack 
and every window. They cover up the doors, and put blankets over 
the windows, so that the detective will not be able to watch him. They 
give a good description of their imaginary persecutor. This particular 
addict stated that the detective was a big "so-and-so" and that he 
was wearing a cap. 

At this stage, as in this scene, ^ve see the addict feverishly pacing up 
and down a hall. He sees a detective peeping out of every door and 
jumps away from him. Cocaine addicts who are having paranoid 
delusions are quite dangerous, since they may misidentify harmless 
individuals as being the detective who is persecuting them, and may 
attack and harm their best friends. I will say that most United States 
addicts do not reach the stage shown in this film. Before such serious 
symptoms occur they take an antidote to cocaine, generally morphine 
or heroin. 



118 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Once the symptoms abate after injection of the antidote, they begin 
to inject cocaine again and will spend entire nights attempting to bal- 
ance the excitant effects of cocaine with the depressant effects of mor- 
phine. 

When the administration of cocaine is stopped, no definite symp- 
toms of abstinence occur. Addicts have a severe hang-over, are weak, 
shaky, and eat poorly for seveial days. These symptoms however, are 
simply toxic manifestations arising from the debauch rather than 
through withdrawal symptoms and are not relieved by injections of 
cocaine. 

Mescaline is the alkaloid responsible for most of the effects of the 
peyote cactus. 

Indians in Mexico and in the Southwest gather buttons of a certain 
species of small cactus. This cactus contains a number of alkaloids, 
the most potent of which is mescaline. The entire cactus button is 
eaten and enables the Indians "to see God" during their religious cere- 
monies. Ordinarily the cactus is taken only during these religious 
ceremonies and members of the peyote cults abstain completely from 
all other intoxicants. Serious harm to society does not result. The 
pure alkaloid, mescaline, has never been available in large quantities, 
so that no serious problem of addiction to it has developed in the 
United States. In France addicts have engaged in mescaline 
debauches. 

As I say, the effects of mescaline resemble those of cocaine. This 
man received 5mg./kg. of mescaline sulfate orally. His tendon re- 
flexes are increased. 

Sympathomimetic effects and effects due to direct cortical excitation 
can be observed. Sympathomimetic effects include mydriasis, sweat- 
ing, hypertension, tachycardia, and so forth. The cortical excitant 
effects are evidenced by the increase in the deep tendon reflexes, uncon- 
trollable shaking, twitching, convulsions, and hallucinations. Notice 
that the reflexes in this particular subject are extremely sharp, twitchy, 
and repetitive. Ankle clonus is very frequently observed. 

Characteristically this drug induces hallucinations which are pre- 
dominantly visual and generally take the form of geometric patterns, 
although all types of hallucinations may be experienced in individuals. 
They temporarily develop a picture, but that is only to individuals 
who are so predisposed. Visual hallucinations especially of vivid 
colors are every characteristic. 

Here you see the patient in bed under the effects of mescaline. The 
effects are similar to those in cocaine, showing the uncontrollable 
switching, shaking, and shivering. 

The hallucinations may be regarded by different subjects as pleasant 
or unpleasant. This particular patient found them very disturbing. 
Paranoid delusions occur and reaction patterns simulating schizo- 
phrenia may be seen. 

These drugs — cocaine, mescaline, and benzedrine — are very well 
antidoted by morphine, heroin, or even better by the barbiturates, so 
that generally the drugs of this class are not taken continuously in 
the United States, only intermittently for a spree, and usually the 
people will take an antidote, say a dose of heroin, before they develop 
these delusions and hallucinations. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 119 

Now, marijuana, of course, refers to the leaves of tlie hemp phiut, 
preferably the leaves and flower of the female hemp plant, just as 
the seeds are beginning to set and the maximum amount of resin 
wliich contains marijuana is there. The leaves are gathered, dried, 
and the stems are removed, and marijuana is made up into a coarse 
powder like tobacco. 

Hemp from different parts of the world varies in its content of the 
resins which are the active j^rinciples of the plant. The best mari- 
juana usually comes from north Africa. Mexican marijuana is fairly 
potent, but North American hemp is low in resin content and regarded 
as inferior by experienced marijuana smokers. 

There is a great deal of ritual in the smoking of marijuana. They 
use two cigarette papers — one brown and one white. For some reason 
or other, it is no good unless one has both types of cigarette papers — ■ 
at least so the marijuana users say. 

Now, each man has his own idea as to the size of the cigarette he 
is making. Of course, if he is selling them, he will make them as 
small as possible in order to obtain the maximum number of sticks 
or cigarettes from whatever supply of marijuana he may have. 

When the drug is smoked the smoke is irritating, very irritating, 
much more so than tobacco, so it is necessary to take a short puff 
[demonstrating] and inhale additional air behind it in order to be 
able to liold the smoke down and obtain the effects. 

This particular technique of smoking is due to the irritant proper- 
ties of marijuana smoke. Even the use of this technique does not 
prevent coughing and gagging in experienced smokers. 

In the Far East and in India, the resins of the marijuana plant are 
concentrated to form a solid cake — hashish. In this concentrated 
form or in the form of liquid infusions, the effects are far greater 
than those after smoking a marijuana cigarette. 

To the majority of individuals, the effect of smoking marijuana is 
quite mild. These people become "high," as they say, and they giggle 
and they have a good time ; they are happy, pleasant, and contented. 
jOistortion of time and space perception are characteristic features. 
There is no ataxia and smokers are generally pleasant and amusing. 

Time appears to go very slowly, and space may either seem to be 
contracted or enlarged. As I said, they do not have very great ataxia, 
and they can still perform actions pretty well. They can throw a 
baseball and catch it quite nicely. 

The mildness of the effects of marijuana smoking is probably due 
to tlie fact that it is difficult to obtain a very high concentration of the 
drug as long as it is smoked. If our addicts began to use the drug 
in the form of hashish, the situation might be entirely difl'erent. 

As I say, marijuana smokers generally are mildly intoxicated, gig- 
gle, laugh, bother no one, and have a good time. They do not stagger 
or fall, and ordinarily will not attempt to harm anyone. 

It lias not been proved that smoking marijuana leads to crimes of 
violence or to crimes of a sexual nature. Smoking marijuana has no 
unpleasant after-effects, no dependence is developed on the drug, and 
the practice can easily be stopped at any time. In fact, it is probably 
easier to stop smoking marijuana cigarettes than tobacco cigarettes. 

In predisposed individuals, marijuana may pi-ecipitate temporary 
psychoses and is, therefore, not an innocuous practice with them. Per- 



120 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

haps in 10 percent of the individuals who do use marijuana as a driig, 
the}^ become temporarily insane just as you saw with cocaine. We 
have had that occur here durino; the course of our experience. That 
actually represents the greatest danger in the use of marijuana from 
a medical point of view. 

In addition, marijuana also under certain circumstances is very 
frequently the first drug that an individual experiments with, and 
it leads to addiction of drugs whose effects are far more serious. 

Now, when we speak of addiction to morphine, it is usually de- 
scribed as having three characteristics. These are tolerance, a de- 
creasing effect on repeated injection of drug, physical dependence and 
the development of characteristic sickness when the drug is taken 
away, an emotional dependence which is an answer to all of life's 
problems. 

Veteran addicts become extremely skillful in the injecting of this 
morphine. They prefer to inject it intravenously, because in that 
way one gets the maximum thrill. 

The equipment includes a spoon with a bent handle, a hypodermic 
needle, an eye dropper, cigarette paper, and cotton. There is also a 
handkerchief to be used as a tourniquet. 

In this scene we see a veteran morphine addict before he takes his 
injection. Equipment described in the title is standard with United 
States addicts, and the eye-dropper technique is actually preferred 
to the use of a hypodermic syringe, since the droppei- is smaller, easier 
to conceal, easier to handle, and actually easier to control when giving 
one-self an intravenous injection. 

Now we see the addict fitting the cigarette paper around the end of 
the eye dropper to form a seal for the needle. Note that the cigarette 
paper is wet in the mouth and handled with the fingers. The addict^s 
only concession to sterility is to occasionally wash his syringe. Notice 
that he rubs tli-^ needle in his hair to grease it so that it will slip through 
the skin more easily. 

Here you see the patient preparing a "shot." The drug is dissolved 
in a spoon and a match is used to heat the solution. It is easy to 
understand the incidence of bacterial endocarditis among addicts 
after observing this technique. Water — in this case good sterile 
water — is used to dissolve the morphine. Of course, this using of dis- 
tilled water is simply a gesture, after the other things he did, by spit- 
ting on the cigarette paper, and so on, and when one sees this one really 
wonders how many of these people live to be as old as this man, who is 
around 50. 

They heat the water not only to sterilize it, but simply to help dis- 
solve the drug. They place a whisp of cotton in the water in the spoon 
which is heated with a match. This serves as a filter, and after the 
water is hot, the tablets are placed in the spoon and another match is 
used to reheat the solution. This solution is then drawn up into the 
eye dropper through this small piece of cotton. As I said, the cotton 
serves as a filter and straii^s out insoluble foi-eig)i matei'ial which is, of 
course, present in adulterated bootleg morphine in large quantities. 

There you see him putting the morphine into the spoon, and he has 
2 one-quarter grains, approximately 32 milligrams of morphine. This 
is a very large dose, but it is a dose which addicts like, provided that 
they are not at the moment not tolerant. You can see him sucking 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 121 

up the solution tlirough his little whisp of cotton. He then wraps a 
handkei'chief around his arm for a tourniquet, and he inserts the needle 
into the vein with a drilling motion. The addicts become uncannily 
skillful in giving themselves intravenous injections. They can often 
"hit"' a vein that a doctor is unable to find. The drilling motion is 
actually a good technique for entering a small vein. 

As I say. this technique is peculiar to addicts, and it is a good tech- 
nique foi" doctors for getting into veins that are small. I have learned 
it from the addicts, and it is actually quite effective, much more effec- 
tive than the usual medical technique in making a straight jab along 
the long axis of the vein. 

Here you see him injecting the drug, and he rubs it off with his 
finger. 

A few seconds after the injection the drug produces tingling, itch- 
ing, and flushing. 

The effects of intravenous administration of morphine are evident 
within a few seconds. They consist of marked flushing of the face 
and upper part of the body or trunk. We cannot see tliis very well 
in the motion picture. He has a sensation of tingling, and his stomach 
rumbles, and it seems to have similarities to a sexual orgasm. 

Following this initial thrill, which is very transient, the individual 
becomes progressively more sedated, and if allowed to take repeated 
doses and is not tolerant, he will take as much as he can without being 
killed, and then he develops this state of marked intoxication which 
the addicts term "being on the nod." 

In this state it is very peculiar, in that the man is only half asleep 
and half awake. He may sit up all night with his head rolling for- 
ward on his chest and then snapping it backward. This is the state in 
which the opium dreams are experienced. Actually these dreams that' 
you may have read about are quite ordinary dreams, but the only 
thing is that taking the drug enables you to have lots of dreams, and 
if the dreams are pleasant, you are able to take out your difficulties 
in fantasy, and then you may like morphine. 

As you can see, when repeated doses are taken the addict becomes 
heavily sedated but can still be aroused. The semisomnolent state, 
illustrated in this scene, is termed ''bein<2: on the nod.'' As the addict 
drowses, his head falls forward on his chest and then he partly 
awakens, straightens up, and looks about him. In this condition 
pleasant dreams occur and being "on the nod" represents a condition 
which most addicts desire. 

As I say, unfortunately for the addict, this state does not exist 
very long, and the effect is very soon lost, and the man finally is taking 
drugs to prevent the appearance of the withdrawal illness. 

In spite of the appearance of marked drunkenness, an individual 
who is "on the nod" can be aroused easily, and will answer questions 
intelligently without any great slurring of speech. They can walk 
about and very little ataxia can be detected. Morphine provides a 
way of being markedly intoxicated without being drunk. Morphine 
intoxication, therefore, differs strikingly from intoxication with alco- 
hol or barbiturates. 

Now, in the next set of scenes we are seeing an example of addiction 
to keto-bemidone. These scenes also demonstrate one of the tech- 
niques of determining the addiction liability of a new drug — the tech- 



122 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

nique of direct addiction. Keto-bemidone is a very potent derivative 
of meperedine or demerol. Early in addiction to keto-bemidone this 
man was heavily sedated. 

By "tolerance" we mean a decreasing effect on repeated adminis- 
tration of a drug. It is believed that tolerance represents the develop- 
ment or enhancement of certain homeostatic mechanisms which oppose 
the actions of the drug. 

Keto-bemMone is an analgesic drug which will probably not come 
into use in the United States. Although a derivative of demerol, it 
is many times more potent. 

In this particular scene we see a man Vvdio volunteered to undergo 
experimental addiction to keto-bemidone in a study carried out to 
evaluate the addiction liability of the drug. He is heavily sedated and 
"on the nod*' just as if he were receiving large amounts of morphine. 

We fire, therefore, justified in saying that keto-bemidone produces 
morphinelike euphoria. He attempted to read the newspaper all day 
long, but never finished a page. He dropped his cigar several times 
and scratched himself repeatedly. 

As you can see, the effects are similar to those of morphine. But 
as addiction proceeds this effect is lost. This indicates tolerance to the 
sedative effects of keto-bemidone. 

I have not mentioned one thing that is peculiar to drugs of this 
type. All you have to do to wake the people is just touch them, and 
they are right with you. They can walk, and they can talk intelli- 
gently. It is quite different from alcohol or barbitu.rates. They are 
quite different from an individual who has taken too much alcohol. 
They are much less impaired, even in this stage, than they are with 
alcohol. 

This man has developed a tolerance, and you now see that the seda- 
tive effect has disappeared. 

This scene was made 6 weeks after the preceding scene was taken. 
The addict is still receiving the same amount of keto-bemidone as he 
was in the preceding scene. He is no longer heavily sedated. This 
loss of the sedative effect is indicative of tolerance, and tolerance 
means that this new drug is similar to morphine. 

The high toxicity of keto-bemidone can be seen in the emaciation 
and appearance of ill health in this particular patient. The harm 
which addiction to this derivative of demerol has caused is evident. 
He loses a great deal more weight than people do who are taking 
morphine. 

Following the withdrawal, he developed a characteristic illness, 
Avhich is identical to withdrawal from morphine, except that it is 
extremely severe. Eight hours after the last dose of keto-bemidone 
was given he became very ill. He was just as ill as a patient who had 
been off morphine for from 36 to 48 hours. 

Some of the men who underwent this experience, not this particular 
man, lost 17 pounds of body weight in 16 hours. 

Here you can see the suffering in this man's face. Notice the twitch- 
ing of the feet, and from that twitching of the feet we can see the 
effect it is having upon him. He yawned, vomited, ached, twitched, 
had fever, goose-flesh, hyperonea, and excessive sweating. 

The phenomena describ?d in the title represents symptoms of ab- 
stinence from keto-bemidone. These, in turn, are indicative of devel- 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 123 

opnient of an altered physiological state — physical dependence — ■ 
\\hich necessitates continued administration of the drug in order to 
prevent the appearance of these symptoms. 

In the case of the morphinelike drugs, these symptoms are ex- 
tremely uncomfortable but not dangerous to life. They do, however, 
})revent the addict from discontinuing the use of the drug unless he 
has medical aid of some kind. The abstinence symptoms are gen- 
erally opi)osite in direction to the symptoms produced by the drugs. 

Instead of constriction of the pupils, we see dilation. Instead of 
a drop in blood pressure, we see the elevation of blood pressure. In- 
stead of slowed respiratory rate,, we see an accelerated respirator}^ 
rate. 

These symptoms are probably due to release of the enchanced homeo- 
static mechanisms which are responsible for tolerance from the brake 
imposed by elective concentration of the drug in the body. 

Abstinence from the opiatelike drugs is a self-limited condition 
which runs a definite time course. Patients will recover regardless 
and in spite of whatever treatment is administered, as long as the 
treatment involves withdrawal of the drug. Failure to realize this 
fact is responsible for the large number of irrational withdrawal 
treatments Avhich have been advocated and are still recommended by 
some authors. 

In this scene we see the addict restless, uncomfortable, sweating, 
yawning, moving from one side to the other side of the bed, aching 
and swept by waves of goose-flesh. He is nauseated, has vomited 
several times, and has lost a great deal of w'eight. He has a fever, 
his blood pressure, pulse, and respiration are elevated. Discomfort 
is evidenced in his facial expression. The twitching of his legs is a 
characteristic withdrawal sign which has given rise to the term 
"kicking the habit." 

These symptoms indicate physical dependence. They were rapidly 
abolished by a dose of keto-bemidone. Prompt relief of the obstinant 
symptoms by the administration of the drug which produced the 
physical dependence is one of the most striking characteristics of 
physical dependence on any of the opiates. 

This has led some observers to state that the withdrawal syndrome 
is "psychic" or "symbologenic" in origin, that all of the symptoms are 
hysterical or due to malingering in an effort to obtain the drug. This 
is definitely not true, since dependence on morphine has been observed 
in the paralyzed hind limbs of experimentally addicted dogs whose 
spinal cord was severed prior to addiction. Abstinence syndromes 
have been observed in dogs from wdiom all of the cerebral cortex has 
been lemoved. 

There is, of course, a very strong emotional reaction to the suf- 
fering of withdrawal, which varies greatly from individual to in- 
dividual. Generally, it is extremely easy to separate phenomena due 
to the emotional reaction to those due to withdrawal of the drug, pro- 
vided one is sufficiently familiar with the manifestations of abstinence. 
Here is a man who is highly tolerant to morphine. You will interview 
this man later. He was receiving over 6 grains of morphine, and he 
is perfectly tolerant. The sedative effect has disappeared and he is 
able to carry on the trade of a barber. 



124 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

This shows that the physical effects of morphine on the individual, 
once tolerance is developed, are not great. It is compatible with per- 
fectly good health and, in fact, if the individual is sufficiently highly 
motivated with a considerable degree of social productivity, you will 
notice that he is able perfectly to carry on his trade as a barber. 

I think you will have to bear in mind, first, that this is an artificial 
situation. This man's dose is artifically held at 400 milligrams a 
day. He was not permitted to have more. If he had had access to it 
he would have taken more, and would have developed a great deal 
more toxicity, and he could not have worked so effectively because, 
generally, tlie addict taking morphine tends just to sit around in a 
dream and do as little as possible. 

In other words, in the average case, the social productivity is greatly 
decreased, and that represents the real harm that morphine does. 

Here we see this patient 36 hours after his last dose of morphine. 
You will notice that the picture is similar to the individual that was 
seen during abstinence from keto-bemidone. This man is extremely 
restless, his legs are twitching, he is sweating, yawning, vomiting, has 
goose-flesh, and so forth. 

Notice that in the second half of these scenes he is receiving an 
infusion in the jugular vein. We frequently have to make use of the 
jugular, since addicts' veins are often so sclerosed as a result of re- 
peated injections that no other vein is available. They are running 
this fluid into his neck to replace that fluid which was lost by vomiting, 
sweating, and so on, and it had to be given to him through his neck 
because all of the veins in his arms have been sclerosed. 

The medication being administered is 5 percent alcohol in glucose. 
It has been reported that intravenous alcohol relieves abstinence from 
morphine. This scene demonstrates clearly that intravenous alcohol 
is without effect. The only agents known which have any significant 
effect on tlie morpliine abstinence syndrome are drugs with morphine- 
like action. 

Now, I want to say to you that these withdrawal pictures are not 
imaginary, it is not psychic in origin. Physical dependence on these 
drugs can be induced on dogs from whom a certain portion of the 
brain has been removed, and on those paralyzed whose spinal cords 
have been severed, and it can be seen that it is a real physiological 
disturbance, and it is extremely uncomfortable. This man is quite ill. 
We will now come to the use of methadone drugs in treating mor- 
phine addiction. Drugs of the metliadone series will relieve or pre- 
vent signs of abstinence from morphine. When the methadone drug 
is withdrawn only mild or no symptoms are observed. Methadone 
is a synthetic drug, and it has the peculiar property of relieving pain 
just as morphine does. Also, it will prevent sickness of addicted 
persons. When the methadone is withdrawn the type of abstinence 
is much milder but more prolonged. 

This patient was giA^en 50 milligrams of alpha -acetyl-d-methadol 
daily in place of 400 milligrams of morphine hypodermically. No 
signs of abstinence are evident. 

The manifestations of abstinence from drugs in the methadone 
series differ from abstinence from morphine. Abstinence is slow in 
onset, mild and prolonged, with very few signs of autonomic dysfunc- 
tion. The major symptoms of abstinence from methadone are fatigue, 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 125 

slight insomnia, anorexia, slight fever, et cetera. Mildness of ab- 
stinence from methadone accounts for its use in withdrawing mor- 
phine from addicts. By substituting methadone for morphine, one 
substitutes a mild type of abstinence for a severe one. 

In this scene the patient has been receiving alpha-acetyl-d-methado] 
by mouth instead of morphine hypodermically. This is a very inter- 
esting compound. It is prepared by acetylation of dextro-methadone, 
which, pharmacologically, is a very inert substance. Acetylation 
converts the drug into "an extremely active compound with very 
peculiar properties. 

When administered hypodermically, effects are not discernible for 
6 to 12 hours after injection of the drug. When given orally, effects 
are evident within 1 hour and a half. The effects are very long-last- 
ing, so that in treating abstinence from morphine one needs to give 
only one dose of the drug by mouth daily. 

It is quite evident that the subject is having no symptoms, is per- 
fectly well and able to work. We may describe this phenomenon by 
stating that alpha-acetyl-d-methadol substitutes comidetely for mor- 
phine in a ratio of 1 milligram of alpha-acetyl-d-methadoi for every 
8 milligrams of the patients' accustomed dose of morphine. 

Thirty-six hours after the last dose of alpha-acetyl-d-methadol 
was administered, the addict had no symptoms and continued to work. 

In this scene we see the addict 36 hours after he had received his 
last dose of alpha-acetyl-d-methadol. When compared with the 
scene showing the addict 36 hours after his last dose of morphine, the 
difference in the intensity of abstinence is quite evident. About the 
fifth day of abstinence he developed fatigue, mild cramps in the legs, 
and became slightly irritable. These symptoms soon subsided with- 
out any treatment being given. 

xVlpha-acetyl-d-methadol is a very interesting drug which may pos- 
sibly have valuable clinical uses primarily because of its great eificacy 
when administered orally, and its prolonged length of action. 
Whether this drug will be effective as an analgesic still remains to 
be determined. This point can be settled Only hj administering the 
drug to patients with pain. This drug is not yet available for gen- 
eral clinical use. 

Now we come to barbiturates. Addiction to barbiturates is a very 
dangerous condition. The signs of intoxication with barbiturates 
resemble those of intoxication with alcohol. They include nystag- 
mus, ataxia in gait and station, dysarthria and tremor. 

Addiction to barbiturates is undoubtedly increasing rapidly in the 
United States. Sales of these drugs are far in excess of estimated 
therapeutic need and amounts to 24 capsules yearly for every person 
in the United States. In the United States, addiction to barbiturates 
is exceeded in the importance only by addiction to alcohol. Actually, 
the two problems are very similar. The signs of either acute or 
chronic intoxication with barbiturates resembles those of alcoholic 
intoxication. 

In this scene we see a patient who is receiving 1.3 grams of Seconal 
(secobarbital) daily. It is evident that he is extremely drunk, has 
marked ataxia of both gait and station, is unable to walk, and is being 
supported by the attendants. He showed marked coarse tremor of 
his hands, dysarthria, nystagmus, et cetera. When one sees a patient 

85277— 51— pt. 14 9 



126 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

who appears drunk that has no odor of alcohol on his breath, the most 
likely diagnosis is barbiturate intoxication. 

While intoxicated, these patients frequently fall and are injured. 
Like alcoholics, barbiturate addicts may be seriously injured as a 
result of a fall. They also fall asleep in bed while smoking and set 
serious fires. Like alcoholics, their emotional control is impaired and 
they are likely to fight over minor matters or fancied insults, and so 
incur an injury. 

Individuals intoxicated with barbiturates are unable to carry on 
their usual occupations or do any useful and productive work. They 
will, of course, be very great menaces if they attempted to drive auto- 
mobiles. They even commit crimes and cannot remember them after 
the commission of the crime. 

The effects vary with the food intake, just as they do with alcohol. 
The effects are much less when the drug is taken on a full stomach. 
These individuals are apt to have severe falls and receive serious head 
injuries, just as they do with alcohol. All in all, the picture is very 
formidable. 

Now, at one time it was said that there were no withdrawal symp- 
toms with individuals who were chronical addicts to barbiturates. 
That is not true. Excessively rapid withdrawal of barbiturates may 
be followed by convulsions and a delirium. This patient received 
his last dose of barbiturate IG hours before this scene was made. 

We now know that very severe and dangerous symptoms do occur 
following abrupt withdrawal of barbiturates, or even after abrupt 
reduction of the dosage the patient is accustomed to taking. 

In this scene we see a patient who has been receiving 3.8 grams of 
amytal (amobarbital) per day. His last dose was administered 16 
hours before this particular scene was taken. He is now haying un- 
controllable episodes of twitching and jerking of the extremities, be- 
ginning chiefly in the left leg. At this time these episocles, which 
might be termed minor convulsions, were not associated with loss of 
consciousness. They were, however, associated with the appearance 
of bursts of large high-voltage slow waves in the electroencephalo- 
gram. The development of these minor seizures was preceded by 
anxiety, extreme weakness, and, on standing, by a disturbance in 
cardiovascular dynamics. As abstinence proceeded, these minor 
seizures were replaced by true grand mal convulsions. Later he had 
three grand mal convulsions. 

Here we see this patient having a typical tonic-clonic convulsion, 
which is clinically indistinguishable from a seizure due to idiopathic 
grand mal e])ilep"sy. The seizure was preceded by a cry. If one looks 
carefully, salivation is evident. 

Patients soil themselves, have positive Babinski signs immediately 
after the convulsion, are confused and disoriented for a period of time, 
though seldom for as long as after seizures due to grand mal epilepsy. 

This patient had no personal or familial history of epilepsy. Prior 
to addiction to barbiturates his electroencephalogram was completely 
normal. In short, convulsions seen during abstinence from barbitu- 
rates are true witlidrawal phenomena and are not dependent upon any 
preceding epileptic diathesis. 

During seizures due to withdrawal of barbiturates, patients may be 
very seriously injured. Skull fractures and fractures of the vertebrae 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 127 

are not at all unconinion. It is wise to contrast this with abstinence 
from niori)hine. Abstinence from morphine is very uncomfortable 
but is not actually dangerous to life. Addiction to barbiturates is, in 
many respects, far more dangerous and far more serious to both the 
individual ancl to society than is addiction to morphine. 

This patient has been abstinent from barbiturates for 5 days. He 
has a severe delirium which resembles a schizophrenic reaction pattern. 

The second major manifestation of abstinence from barbiturates is 
a psychosis whicli resembles delirium tremens. Some patients may 
have both convulsions and a delirium; others may have convulsions 
but no delirium; still others may escape convulsions but have a 
delirium. 

In this particular scene we see a patient approximately 5 days after 
he received his last dose of barbiturates. He had been receiving 1.8 
grams of secobarbital per day for several months. During the night 
preceding the day when this scene was made, he suddenly called for 
the doctor, and said that his brain had slipped down into his body. 
He said that this was due to the fact that too many brain waves had 
been taken out and that the situation could only be remedied by put- 
ting them back in. Throughout the day he had many vivid visual 
hallucinations. He saw himself and parts of himself on the wall. He 
saw other people on the wall. He saw airplanes, trains, and so forth. 

In this particular scene, we see him hyperventilating; the sig- 
nihcance of the hyperventilation is unknown. 

Later, when asked how many people he saw, he counted eight and 
replied three. At this time, the psychosis waxed and waned periodi- 
cally. At times the patient appeared to be perfectly oriented, would 
talk, joke, laugh, and seem perfectly reasonable. A few minutes later 
he would begin to stare at the imaginary pictures on the wall. 

He also had ideas of reference and felt that the pictures he was 
seeing were being thrown on the wall by a hidden movie projector, 
or that the hallucinations were being suggested to him by the physician. 

Generally, such patients are disoriented in time ancl place, but not 
in person. S.ymptoms usually appear and are much worse at night. 
Auditory hallucinations are present, but optical hallucinations pre- 
dominate. Unless one is aware of the condition it may be confused 
with any of the psychiatric entities such as schizophrenia or manic- 
depressive psychosis, and especially with alcoholic delirium tremens. 

This patient became progressively worse and was disoriented in 
all three spheres during the night immediately following the pre- 
ceding scene. He wavecl a pocket comb, jibbered and yammered, and 
had vivid hallucinations, largely of a sexual nature. He masturbated 
several times during the night and seemed to be accusing his wife 
of various sexual irregularities. ^ The following day he thought that 
he was being tried on a charge of burglary in Indiana, and conducted 
a very skillful defense of his own case. Thereafter, he recovered 
rapidly. 

Now, when he is waving his hands around in the air that way, I 
don't know what he is doing. This is not a convulsion, but that is 
something that he is doing himself. It means something to him, but 
I don't know exactly what was going on, because he was completely 
out of contact and would not answer questions at this time. 



128 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Now, the barbiturate withdrawal picture is more variable than that 
of morphine. 

A careful and slow withdrawal of barbiturates will prevent these 
serious symptoms. Physical recovery from barbiturate addiction is 
complete. 

The only safe method of withdrawing barbiturates from addicted 
persons is to slowly reduce the dosage. This is done by first establish- 
ing the dose which will keep the individuals continuously mildly 
intoxicated. Usually 0.8 to 1.6 grams of pentobarbital, or the equiv- 
alent dosage of any barbiturate, per day, will suffice for this purpose. 
Once the minimal intoxicating dosage is established, the dosage 
should be reduced 0.1 gram per day. Occasionally, reduction should 
be stopped for a day or two and the dosage maintained at whatever 
level has been attained. If patients become excessively nervous, can- 
not sleep, develop convulsions, or any of the other major manifesta- 
tions of withdrawal, reduction should be stopped immediately. 

If the diagnosis of barbiturate addiction is made after major signs 
of abstinence have appeared, the patient should innnediately be given 
barbiturates intravenously or intramuscularly until the symptoms are 
controlled. Thereafter, slow reduction can be started. 

It is also important to remember that acute barbiturate intoxica- 
tion is frequently superimposed upon chronic barbiturate addiction. 
When a diagnosis of acute barbiturate intoxication is made, it should 
be ascertained, after the patient has recovered from coma, Avhether 
he has been ingesting barbiturates chronically. If this is the case, the 
patient should be given barbiturates regularly and slow reduction 
begun. 

The barbiturate abstinence syndrome, like the morphine astinence 
syndrome, is a self-limited condition which runs its course, even if un- 
treated. Physical recovery is complete and, if the patient does not 
incur some severe trauma while intoxicated or while he is having 
convulsions during withdrawal, clinical evidence of any permanent 
damage cannot be detected. 

As is the case with addiction to alcohol and addiction to morphine, 
many patients relapse to the use of barbiturates repeatedly. One of 
the men in the last scene has relapsed to the use of barbiturates three 
times since this movie was made. Prognosis for complete abstinence 
must therefore be guarded. 

Senator Hunt. Doctor, I wanted to ask you as to the convulsions 
that were so evident in the shaking of the hands; do you also have a 
convulsion of the heart muscles ? 

Dr. ISBELL. No. 

Senator Hunt, Just of the extremities ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Just the muscles; actually, it is a discharge from the 
brain. 

Senator Hunt. Thank you. 

The Chairman. After it is over, do they have a recollection of what 
has occurred? 

Dr. IsBELL. They do not remember the convulsion. They call it a 
black-out. They have a partial memory of the hallucination, usually, 

Mr, MosER, Do they suffer during that withdrawal period on 
barbiturates ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 129 

Dr. IsBELL. Oh, yes; especially early before the convulsions occur, 
they are extremely apprehensive, and they are frightened. They feel 
as though they are going to explode. They have a terrible sensation 
of fear, and they are begging for drugs of any kind. First, you need 
to remember that the taking of small closes that ^re to be prescribed by 
physicians in the course of treatment of illness will not bring about any 
withdrawal illness. It is only when they take larger doses of their 
own selection. They may take anywhere from 5 to 20 of these cap- 
sules a day, and if they do, then they will have this withdrawal phase 
that they must go through. 

The Chairman. Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

The Chairman. Back on the record. 

I would now like to call the executive meeting to order, and to state 
for the record that by unanimous action of the entire committee the 
chairman is authorized to appoint one or more members as a sub- 
committee, and does appoint a subcommittee to conduct this hearing 
held at Lexington, Ky., and has appointed the Senator from Wyoming, 
Mr. Hunt ; the Senator from Wisconsin, Mr. Wiley ; and the Senator 
from Maryland, myself, as a subcommittee in this instance. 

I would like to file for the record the resolution adopted by the entire 
committee. 

(The resolution above referred to may be found in the files of the 
committee.) 

The Chairman. Now, the first witness that we call will be Dr. Vogel. 
As is customarily the case, we have been swearing all of the witnesses, 
and I presume you would have no objection to being sworn. 

Dr. VoGEL. No objection at all. 

The Chairman. Very well. Will you raise your right hand, please. 

In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear that the testi- 
mony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth ? 

Dr. Vogel. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF DR. VICTOR H. VOGEL, MEDICAL OFFICER IN 
CHARGE, UNITED STATES PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE HOSPITAL, 
LEXINGTON, KY. 

The Chairman. Will you give us your full name for the record, 
please. 

Dr. Vogel. Victor H. Vogel. 

The Chairman. Doctor, will you just state your official position? 

Dr. Vogel. I am medical officer in charge, United States Public 
Health Service Hospital, Lexington, Ky. 

The Chairman. I would like to ask our chief counsel, Mr. Moser, to 
conduct the examination. 

Dr. Vogel. Very well. 

Mr. ]\IosER. How long have you been in this position, Doctor? 

Dr. Vogel. I have been in this position for 4I/2 years. I have been 
stationed at the hospital twice before in other capacities, 

Mr. MosER. What was your position before you came here? 



130 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Dr. VoGEL. The first time wlien tlie hospital opened, from 1935 to 
1937, 1 was a staff psychiatrist ; the second time, in 1943 to 1941, 1 was 
executive officer, second in charge. 

Mr. MosER. And between 1944 and the time you came here? 

Dr. VoGEL. I was in* Washington in the National Office of Vocational 
Eehabilitation, where I was loaned by the Service. In the inter- 
vening period between 1937 and 1943 I had several service assign- 
ments, including the National Office of Civilian Defense, and the Divi- 
sion of Mental Hygiene in the Public Health Service headquarters. 

Mr. MosER. How many years altogether have you been in the field 
of narcotics ? 

Dr. VoGEL. That would be eight, plus — eight or nine. 

]\Ir. MosER. Dr. Vogel, will you give us some figures showing 

Dr. VoGEL. May I correct that to 9 or 10 ^ I had a year at the Fort 
Worth Hospital as executive officer. 

The Chairman. That is all right. 

Mr. MosER. Will you give us figures showing the total number of 
patients in this institution and Fort Worth which, as I understand, 
is the other Federal institution that treats narcotics. 

Dr. VoGEL. Yes; I will give you the data that I have. Our popula- 
tion at Lexington Hospital, the addict population is 1,320. The nor- 
mal capacity is 1,300. Our highest population has been 1,500. 

The Fort Worth Hospital has at the moment about 225 addicts. 
The total bed capacity there is a thousand, but numerous other mental 
patients on a paid basis are cared for there, such as those from the 
Veterans' Administration. 

I have here a chart not based on the present population, but on the 
admissions of the two hospitals combined. 

I thought in order that the committee might have an idea of a de- 
mand made for treatment on these hospitals, that the statistics of the 
two hospitals should be taken in combination. 

Mr. MosER. This chart is a graph from the year 1935, when this 
hospital was opened, as I understand it, to the present date in 1951? 

Dr. VoGEL. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Showing the admissions of the addict patients. I call 
the committee's attention to the fact that in recent years, especially 
from the beginning of 1949 to the end of 1950, there was a very sharp 
increase in the number of patients, although there is a slight decrease 
in the early part of 1951. 

Dr. VoGEL. This is the admission of all ages. I have another chart 
showing the admissions of those under 18. 

Mr. MosER. Yes. 

Dr. VoGEL. This shows the total admissions of addicts to the two 
hospitals as beng 37,589. 

Mr. MosER. Over the years ? 

Dr. VoGEL. Over the years. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, I will show you these two tables of figures 
which you prepared, one entitled "Addict Admissions by Calendar 
Year, Lexington Hospital Only," and the other is a breakdown of these 
figures according to sex, race, and age groups. 

Dr. VoGEL. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. These were prepared here, were they ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COAIMERCE 



131 



Mr. MosER. I Avoiikl like to offer these in evidence as exhibits 1 and 
'2, to be attached to the record. 

Dr. VoGEL. May I call your attention to the fact that the second 
table which you referred as a breakdown table refers only to that 
portion of patients under the age 21. 

Mr, MosER. All right. I offer them in evidence. 

The Chairman. Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 will be admitted. 

(The documents marked ''Exhibits 1 and 2" are as follows:) 

Exhibit No. 1. — Addict admissiotis, by calendar year (Lexington hospital only) 





All addict 
admissions 


Under 21 
(included 

in total 
admission 

figures) 




All addict 
admissions 


Under 21 
(included 

in total 
admission 

figures) 


1035 1. 


823 
1,021 

838 
1,149 
1,013 
1,018 
1.236 
1,769 
1,923 


9 
15 

8 
23 
22 
11 

6 
17 
23 
11 


1945 


1,571 
1,904 
2,497 
2,335 
3,494 
4,146 
1,554 


19 


1936 


27 


1937 


1947 


13 


1938 ... . 


1948. . .. 


48 


1939 


1949 


199 


1940 


1950 

1951 (to May 31, 1951) 

Total 


426 


1941 . .. 


155 


1942 

1943 




29, 979 


1 032 


1944 









' Hospital officially opened May 25, 1935. 

Exhibit No. 2. — TJ. S. Public Health Service Hospital, Lexington, Ky., June 7, 1951 
{Lexington hospital only) — Comparison study of patients under 21 years of age 
in the institution this date 





Male 


Female 




Male 


Female 


Totals 


131 


19 


By residence— Continued 

Chicago, 111 

Washington, D. C 


21 


3 
1 


By age groups: 


37 
35 
39 
16 
4 

30 
100 

1 

87 
3 
41 


7 
4 
4 
3 
1 

5 

14 


12 


10 









Aged 18 years 


East Chicago, Ind 

Gary, Ind 

Dayton, Ohio 

New Orleans La 





Aged 17 years 






By race: 





White 


Miami, Fla 

Detroit, Mich 

Boston Mass 







2 


Mexican 





By custodial status: 


Baltimore, Md 

Newark, N.J 

Montclair, N.J 

Jersey City, N. J 

Norfolk, Va 

Louisville, Ky 


1 


Probationer 





Prisoner 

By residence: 

New York City, N. Y.... 








Senator Hunt. Doctor, may I ask you, what is the total number of 
addicts in the United States, according to your information? 

Dr. VoGEL. No one can answer that, of course, since in order to be an 
addict you have to hide from the law. The statistics are not available. 
Mr. xVnslinger has said that a year or so ago there were about 48,000 
addicts, but that was before this onset of teen-age addiction which we 
are concerned with at this time. 

Senator Hunt. Thank you. 

Mr. MosER, Dr. Vogel, will you give us some statistics and a break- 
down of figures with regard to what we call the teen-age addicts? 



132 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Dr. VoGEL. I have a chart here which refers not to all ages, but only 
to those under age 21. This combines the admissions for the Fort 
Worth and Lexington Hospitals also. It shows a variation from 1935, 
when there were only 9 patients under age 21 admitted during the 
year, to 1950, when there were 440 teen-age patients admitted. 

Projecting that experience of the first 5 months in 1951 over the 
entire year, which may not be entirely valid, it indicates that there 
will be a slight decrease to 398 teen-age patients during the year 1951. 

You must realize that these are not calendar years, but are fiscal 
years from July to July. 

Mr. MosER. Even though there has been a slight decrease in 1951, as 
estimated, the years 1949, 1950, and 1951 are, nevertheless, an enormous 
increase in teen-age patients over the previous years, is that correct? 

Dr. VoGEL. That is correct. 

Senator Hunt. Percentagewise, do you have that on the chart? 

Mr. MosER. No ; Senator Hunt, but I have made some computations 
on this table of addicted admissions by calendar years at Lexington, 
and it appears that in 1935 there were 823 patients, 9 of whom were 
under 21, or about 1.1 percent. 

In 1949 there were 199 out of 3,494, or approximately 8 percent. 
That figure went to 9 percent in 1950. In December 1950, Dr. Vogel, 
what was the figure? 

Di'. Vogel. Eighteen percent of our admissions in that month were 
under age 21. 

INIr. MosER. The figure for 1951, to May 31, 1951, as shown by this 
table, is 155 under 21 out of 1,554, or approximately 10 percent. 

Senator Hunt. Thank you. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, will you give us information with regard to 
the breakdown of these between white and Negro? 

Dr. Vogel. I have these not by admissions, but by patients in the 
hospital, on June 7 in the Lexington and Fort Worth Hospitals. 

Mr. MosER. You are referring to the chart entitled "Addict Pa- 
tients Under Age Twenty-One at Lexington and Fort Worth Hospi- 
tals as of June 7, 1951," is that correct? 

Dr. Vogel. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Go ahead. 

Dr. VoGEL. On that date 120 of our patients were Negroes, and 38 
were white. 

Mr. MosER. About a third ? 

Dr. Vogel. The white group included several Puerto Eicans. It is 
nearer to two-thirds Negro and about one-third white. This is for 
patients under 21. 

Mr. MosER, Yes. 

Dr. Vogel. Taking patients of all ages, the ratio is reversed. One- 
third are Negro and two-thirds are white, so that the teen-age epidemic 
seems to be particularly prevalent in the colored groups, as you will 
see here, in the large cities, since of our 158 total, 87 are from New 
York City, 24 from Chicago, 15 from Washington, and 32 scattered 
among others, among other cities, not more than one or two, but in 
practically every case they are from large cities. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, we have been using the word "addicts." Do 
you mean by that people who are addicted to opiates, such as heroin, 
or do you include those who have been taking marijuana ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 133 

Dr. VoGEL. In the over-all statistics are incliuled persons addicted 
to all of the drugs controlled by the Harrison Narcotics Act, that is, 
all of the opiate group, including marijuana. 

Actually, when we consider the teen-age group, so far as I have 
seen, without a single exception, they are all addicted to heroin. 

Mr. MosER. Is it true that most of them have started Avith mari- 
juana? 

Dr. VoGEL. INIost of them start with smoking marijuana, usually 
with a group, which later considered it smart to experiment with 
heroin, and that led into physical dependence and need for prolonged 
medical treatment. 

Mr. MosER. Do you have any statistics as to the type of families 
these people come from? 

Dr. VoGEL. I have an impression from talking to a good many of 
them that they come from the underprivileged and slum areas in our 
large cities. 

Mr. MosER. Do you have many women ? 

Dr. VoGEL. We liave among the teen-age group, as you can see 19 
girls and 139 boys. That is about the same ratio, by sex, as we find 
in the older age groups. 

Mr. MosER. Now, Dr. Vogel, will you describe the condition of this 
hospital from the viewpoint — first. Dr. Vogel, you were going to refer 
to a breakdown by age groups of the addicts in Lexington and Fort 
Worth. 

Dr. Vogel. One would expect, of course, in considering all ages 
under 21, to find that more of them belong to the 20 age group, and 
slightly less to 19 and slightly less to 18, and so on down, but this 
shows there are as many 18-year-olds as there are 20-year-olds. 

We have had patients here as young as 13. We have had several 
that were 14 and 15. But we did not have any in the hospital on the 
date this graph was made. 

The impact of this tendency toward younger addicts has reduced 
the over-all average age of population in the hospitals from about 37 
years to about 26 years. 

Mr. MosER. Now, let me come back to the conditions here at Lexing- 
ton, as to whether the facilities that you have there or here are avail- 
able for the number of patients that you have who are making 
applications or being sent here. 

Dr. Vogel. There has never been a time during this increased 
demand when we have had to deny prompt admission to first-time 
male patients, in order to give them prompt treatment. We have had, 
part of the time, to enforce a waiting list for recidivist male appli- 
cants. 

Our women's facilities are limited to 160 beds, and we have con- 
stantly had a waiting list for admissions for several years, even before 
this teen-age epidemic came along. 

So although there is now a waiting list for all ages of female pa- 
tients, this is no waiting list for any type of male patients. Part of 
the time recently there was a waiting list for recidivist male patients. 

We are able to promptly admit these male patients only, however, 
by maintaining a state of crowdedness beyond our normal capacity. 
Our normal capacity is 1,300 beds, and we have been as high as 1,500. 



134 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

At the moment, of course, with 1,320, we are 20 beyond our normal 
capacity, but still we are admitting males promptly. 

The chief deficiency, we feel, in addition to that moderate degree 
of crowding, is that we have no excess of beds to allow for grouping, 
or additional buildings to provide for desirable segregation of teen- 
age patients from the older recidivist type of patient, who may be a 
bad influence on tlie younger and more naive patients. 

Mr. MosER. You have the males and females separated, do you not? 

Dr. VoGEL. Yes; they are completely separated. 

Mr. MosER. But the older and younger ones are put together ? 

Dr. VoGEL. That is right. We do not have the facilities at present 
to provide for separate housing or treatment of the young from the old. 

Mr. MosER. So you believe a young addict, coming in here perhaps 
for the first time, is likely to learn a great deal more about drugs than 
he ever knew, is that correct ? 

Dr. VoGEL. He is bound to learn more. Of course, whether or not 
he is a willing recipient of that additional knowledge, and will use it 
when he goes out, for the worst, depends on his own attitude and 
make-up. 

There is a considerable value by the therapy of the horrible example, 
the effect of the older addict on the younger, and that may have a 
desirable effect, but on others, where they are impressionable, and look 
up to that older group, the total effect may be undesirable. 

Senator Hunt. Doctor, may I ask you, do you ever allow the 
younger people to watch the horrible examples for the horrible effect 
they get? 

Dr. VoGEL. Well, they frequently have beds in the treatment wards 
or dormitories. They come into intimate contact with them from the 
beginning, in the withdrawal ward, and later the continued treatment 
dormitories. Of course, you don't find in our withdrawal wards the 
terrible suffering that you saw in the picture based on withdrawal 
cases, because there we were making the picture to show the effects 
of abrupt withdrawal, but in the hospital we do everything possible 
to alleviate and soften that withdrawal suffering. 

Mr. MosER. Yesterday one of the patients I talked to said when she 
first came here she knew only about one drug, the one that she was 
taking, but she says, "Now I am practically a pharmacist." 

Dr. VoGEL. That is conceivable. 

Mr. MosER. Does that mean that she has learned about different 
types of drugs and different methods of administering them? 

Dr. VoGEL. Yes. 

The Chairman. Doctor, have you learned that in the actual cases 
of the recidivists, that they did, subsequent to leaving here, go on 
other drugs about which they had learned here ? 

Dr. VoGEL. Yes ; I am sure that addicts have learned of drugs which 
could be used as satisfactory substitutes if they could not get their 
drug of choice, and subsequent to their going out of here they know 
of other drugs to look for when times get rough. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, what is the capacity of the hospital at Fort 
Worth? 

Dr. VoGEL. One thousand beds. 

Mr. MosER. What percentage of those are addicts? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 135 

Dr. VoGEL. About 225 at the present time. You see, during the 
war, addiction fell off to the point — this was because of strict control, 
of Government control over foreign shipping — so addiction fell off to 
the point that the Lexington Hospital could handle the entire load, 
and the Fort Worth, Tex., hospital was used, first, for psychotic Xavy 
patients, and later for psychotic veterans. Transition is now taking 
place, we are taking in more addicts and taking fewer of the veteran 
patients in order to meet the demand. As of the moment there are 
available at Lexington and Fort Worth vacant beds for the treatment 
of about 300 additional addicts right now. 

]\rr, JMosER. Do you think the decline in the number of admissions 
during the war was caused by the inability of addicts to get the drug, 
or could it have been partly caused by the fact that many potential 
addicts were in the Army? 

Dr. VoGEL. Both factors were undoubtedly in operation. 

Mr. MosER. Here at Lexington what kind of patients do you have 
from the point of view of voluntary and involuntary, and what are the 
percentages of each? 

Dr. VoGEL. We have approximately half of our patients who are 
Federal prisoners and Federal probationists. The other half are 
voluntary patients. 

Some of the voluntaries are here under pressure of various kinds, 
where doctors and State boards of examiners may tell them "You 
have to go voluntarily and stay until you are cured," and they may 
be there because of pressure from relatives. 

Mr. MosER. Do they have to pa}^? 

Dr. VoGEL. If they are able to pay, they are charged $5 a day, but 
if they are unable to pay, they pay nothing, and there is no distinction 
made in their treatment. 

Senator Hunt. Will you give us the process or mechanics of how 
a Federal prisoner gets into this institution? 

Dr. VoGEL. Yes. When he is sentenced in court, the judge makes 
a recommendation, which is later approved or disapproved, usually 
approved by the Attorney General's office in Washington, designating 
this place as the place of confinement. 

That is done, of course, in cases where they feel there is a substantial 
hope of rehabilitation. It is also where they feel his criminality is 
secondary to his addiction. In other words, he may steal checks out 
of a mail box to make enough money to support his habit, and to keep 
from getting sick. 

The great majority of our patients here show no record of delin- 
quency prior to the time that they became addicted, and since the 
date of addiction, all sorts of stealing and passive nonviolent crimes 
are committed in order to raise the money to support their addiction. 

Mr. MosER. To what extent do you think the cleaning up of slum 
areas would tend to reduce addiction? 

Dr. VoGEL. Well, of course, that is a long-range approach. I am 
sure that if the slum areas could be taken care of, if they could be 
eli'Miuitrd, thit it would have a ver}^ material effect in reducing 
addiction. It means that these Idds would spend more time in their 
homes, in the family groups, instead of out on the street with the 
gangs. 



136 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Tliis is about as broad as the whole national health profjram. The 
better adjusted we can make people emotionally to their environment 
and lives, the less attractive will be the artificial effect to be obtained 
from narcotic drugs. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think that anythino; would be accomplished 
by educating teen-agers with regard to the effect of the use of drugs? 

Dr. VoGEL. Based on my experience with the teen-agers I have 
talked to here, I have a very definite feeling that it would be beneficial. 
I have talked to many of these teen-agers who have told me that when 
they shifted from marijuana to heroin, they did not realize that if 
they kept using heroin they would be unable to stop, in other words, 
that there would be a physical dependence, and if they tried to stop 
they would be sick. 

They thought that it would be just like marijuana, that they could 
start or stop just as they liked. 

I have had them tell me, "of course, if I knew that I would be 
hooked I would not have experimented with it, even though it was 
the fad of the gang." 

Mr. MosER. Pardon me for interrupting, but the word "hooked" is 
an addict term meaning that they become addicted and cannot get off 
A'oluntarily ? 

Dr. VoGEL. That is right. Of course, my background is in public 
liealth, and when this subject is presented I constantly think about 
the experiences we have had with other types of public-health pro- 
grams. I think particularly of venereal diseases. Up until the early 
1930's you could not talk about venereal diseases in public, and you 
could not carry on an educational program in the newspapers, or 
magazines, or over the radio. 

But the Surgeon General kept hammering and driving away at it, 
and pretty soon we had the public being informed of the dangers. 

I remember in Louisville that placards were placed on every street 
lamp, and articles appeared in magazines, and on billboards, telling 
people what the true nature of venereal diseases was, how they spread, 
how to avoid catching them, and the importance of early treatment. 

There were people at that time who said that this type of a public 
informational campaign would arouse curiosity on the part of youth 
and lead them to sexual promiscuity, and that there would be an 
increase in venereal diseases. We know by experience that that cam- 
paign resulted only in helping reduce and control the problem. 

I cannot help but think that this is a very similar and analogous 
situation, and that this tried and true principle of educating tlie 
public when faced with a public-health problem can only benefit them. 

It seems to me that in a problem which has reached epidemic pro- 
portions in certain age groups that good public health demands it. 
Tlie people are entitled to the information, in my opinion. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, what happens to the addicts when they leave 
here? Do you think most of them go back on drugs, or what is your 
opinion on that? 

Dr. VoGEL. It is very difficult to tell, because we just cannot follow 
up our patients with any degree of reliability. 

There is one figure that I can give you, definitely, for whatever 
interpretation you can make of it. Of all our patients who have been 
here, 40 percent have been here more than once, and 60 percent have 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 137 

been here only once. We have for some years tried by correspondence 
to carry out a follow-up of tlie patients" who were discharged during 
the previous 1- to 5- year period, that is, the youngest would have 
been out 1 year, and the oldest would have been out 5 years. 

Our results were rather consistent. We were unable to trace half 
of the patients. Approximately one-fourth of the total patients we 
had evidence that they had relapsed. 

The CiiAiRMAX. One-fourth that you were able to reach, or one- 
fourth of the whole '. 

Dr. VoGEL. One-fourth of the whole. The remaining fourth of the 
whole we had reliable information of some kind to indicate that they 
were still olf drugs from 1 to 5 years later. 

Now, concerniixg the half that we were unable to trace, that does 
not necessarily indicate a very high relapse group, because they are 
almost equally desirous of severing their connections with the hos- 
pital, whether they have moved to a neAv town and made a good start, 
or whether they have relapsed. Also if those patients had ever been 
arrested again they would not have been in our unknown group, 
because there would have been an FBI record on them, and it wouid 
have come to our knowledge. 

So since it is probably pretty difficult to remain an addict very long- 
without coming to the attention of public ofhcials, it is sensible to think 
that a good many of them are still off drugs. 

Senator Hunt. Doctor, of the teen-agers, would you say you get 
them mostly as high-school students, or are they just hoodlums ^,•ho 
have not been in high school I 

Dr. VoGEL. Many of our patients, those whom I have talked to any- 
how, I believe, were in high school up until the time they became 
addicted, and they later quit school in an elfort to devote full time to 
the procuring of money with which to buy the drugs. 

I might say, though, that perliaps our sampling here is not a true 
pictui'e of the total group. It may be that we get a selected group here. 

Senator Hunt. You may get the more intelligent ones here^ 

Dr. VoGEL. Yes; and we get those in whom somebody is interested 
enough to make arrangements for them to come hei'e. We get a group 
Mhere someone goes to a judge at the local level and says, "Here is 
someone worth saving,'' and lie will help get them to Lexington rather 
than to put them in the city jail or the State penitentiary. 

It may be that they are not typical of the teen-age group, those 
that we see here, but I get the impression that the majority did not 
have delinquency records prior to addiction, and that they are, as a 
group, pretty normal emotionally and mentally, and they do not have 
the severe type of i)ersonality problems that the older addicts have. 

Mr. MosER. In other words, this so-called epidemic among teen- 
agers is among the non hoodlum group so far as you know, although 
it may be in the hoodlum group aiso^ 

Dr. VoGEE. So far as I can judge from the patients we see here. 

Mr. ]\IosFR. The hoodhuns may be in the ])enal institutions: isn't 
that correct % 

Dr. VoGEL. That is t [ue. 

Mr. MosER. And there may be an increase in ihat that vou do not 
know about. 



138 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Dr. VoGEL. The boys and girls are here for all sorts of reasons. The 
boys steal, and the girls have practiced prostitution in order to make 
enough money to support the habit after they have become addicted. 
Senator Hunt. Doctor, for the record, I would like to say at this 
point that I thoroughly agree with you, that if the horrible examples 
could be j)ointed out to the younger people through just what you 
have shown to us through motion pictures, or through posters, or by 
talks before young groups, so that tliey would get that picture beforp, 
they got the picture from an addict, telling them that they might get 
a kick out of this, or that they woidd get a lift, or that it would make 
them happy, and they could forget their troubles, I just think that it 
would stop a lot of this. 

Dr. VoGEL. I would like to make a further comment along that line. 
If this educational approach is one of psalm singing and sermon 
preaching and a moralistic approach, stating that it is sinful and bad, 
it will not be effective, but if it is presented in high schools or in epi- 
demic areas as part of a science course or a hygiene course, or perhaps 
a physical education course in a straightforward and sensible manner, 
without trying to make it too sensational, then I believe that some of 
these boys and girls will not go ahead. 

Most important of all, we need to do something to combat this idea 
that it is smart to do it, or that it is a sign of manliness. If we can 
tell them that actually it is a sign of weakness instead of manliness to 
try and depend upon his sort of thing in order to meet life's situations ; 
if we get that change of philosophy before them and tell them that it 
is more manly for them not to depend on it than it is for them to fool 
with it, and also instill in them the philosophy that they would be 
suckers, and they would just be contributing to the great profits of 
someone trying to sell it, then there would be an important change in 
the attitude. 

Mr. MosER. Would it be a correct paraphrase of your view to say 
that if the young people of the country knew the facts that they would 
act intelligently and that the teaching of the facts would help the situ- 
ation, whereas preaching would not? 

Dr. VoGEL. I have great confidence in the intelligence of the Ameri- 
can people. While there might be occasional feeble-minded persons 
who might be led by curiosity to try it, I think that we would find 
the same result as from the venereal program. 

Mr. MosER. At this point I would like to suggest that we excuse 
Dr. Vogel for the time being, and then have him come back at the 
end of the session and ask him his views as to the solution to the 
problem. 

The Chairman. Off the record. 
(Discussion off the record.) 
The Chairman. On the record. 
Dr. Isbell, will you raise your right hand, please? 
In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear that the testi- 
mony you shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth ? 
Dr. Isbell. I do. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 139 

TESTIMONY OF DR. HARRIS ISBELL, DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH, 
UNITED STATES PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE HOSPITAL, LEXING- 
TON, KY. 

The Chairman. Will you state your full name for the record, 
please ? 

Dr. IsBELi.. Harris Isbell. 

The CiiAiRMAX. And your connection, Doctor, with the institution ? 

Dr. Isbell. I am director of research. 

The Chairman. For what period of time ? 

Dr. Isbell. I have been in the hospital for approximately 7 years. 

The Chairman. And prior to that time, what had been your expe- 
rience and occupation ? 

Dr. Isbell. I was a member of the original staff, from 1935 to 1936, 
as an intern, and a total of 

The Chairman. You have been here continuously during this 16- 
year period? 

Dr. Isbell. No. I was on other duty from 1936 to 1944, general 
duty around the country, quarantine, hospital duty, research, and 
work of that type. 

The Chair3Ian. But it was in connection with public-health work 
in one phase or another? 

Dr. Isbell. Yes. 

The Chairman. Mr. Moser w ill now take over the questioning. 

Senator Hunt. Off the record, j)lease. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

The Chairman. Back on the record. 

Mr. Moser. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that Dr. Isbell be a witness 
for tlie purpose of telling us the types of drugs and their effects physi- 
cally and psychologically. 

The Chairman. Yes. Thank you. 

Mr. Moser. Dr. Isbell, would you tell us briefly the types of narcotic 
drugs' involved, even though we have seen a movie in Avhich some of 
them are shown. 

Dr. Isbell. For purposes of description, we classify these drugs as 
either depressants or as stimulants. These terms are used with ref- 
erence to the effect on the over-all behavior of the human being. 

By a stimulant we mean drugs that tend to make you nervous, and 
to keep you awake, to depress your appetite, and by depressants we 
mean drugs that tend, initially at least, to make one drowsy or sleepy. 

In the stimulant class we customarily think of the following drugs 
as being of some importance: cocaine, the prototype of all this par- 
ticular group of drugs. Mescaline, used by the Indians in the West 
does not represent a great problem in addiction, and then there are 
some newer drugs, such as benzedrine, clexedrine, and other types 
whose effects are, qualitatively at least, quite similar to those of cocaine 
when taken in large amounts. 

Among the depressant drugs, we divide them into two major classes. 
First of all, the drugs which relieve pain. The prototype in this group 
is mori)hine, and codeine, and the synthetic pain-relieving drugs with 
morphinelike drug action. 

Then there are the morphinelike drugs, such as ketobemidone, and, 
second, the methadone class. 



140 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

There are a large number of individual drugs in all of these types 
of drugs. 

Then we have drugs that are not good pain relievers but are good 
sleep producers. These are so-called hypnotics and sedatives, and in 
this group we include the barbiturates, chloral hydrate, the old "knock- 
out drops," the "Micky Finn" drug, called paraldehyde, and the most 
important of all addicting drugs, alcohol itself. 

Senator Wiley. Does that make you sleepy? 

Dr. IsBELL. Yes, it does, if you drink enough of it it will put you 
to sleep. 

Senator Wiley. Well, the evidence I have seen of it is that if you 
take a couple of drinks that it aifects you just the opposite. 

Dr. IsBELL. Well, the general etfect, though, is pharmacologically 
depressing, and if you take enough it will put you to sleep. 

Mr. MosER. As I understand, with regard to alcohol, it is actually 
a depressant, but because there is a relaxation, it gives a feeling of 
well-being that causes a person to feel as though he is stimulated? 

Dr. IsBELL. It releases from the control of the high centers of the 
brain the activity of the lower ones. 

Senator Wiley. Well, so does overeating or anything, if you go to 
excess, does it not ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Well, yes; but thinking of alcohol as an addiction, I am 
thinking of the 700,000 people who drink enormous amounts, a quart 
or a hfth a day, or even more. The addiction is a matter of ordinary 
dosage ; it is a matter of abuse. 

Senator Wiley. Excessive use, and not temperate use. 

Dr. IsBELL. That is right. 

Mr. MosER, I did not mean to interrupt you ; I am sorry, Senator. 

Senator Wiley. All right. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Isbell, I have the impression that the commonest 
drugs used by addicts today, especially the young addicts, is heroin. 
Will you tell us how that is related to opium, and how it is made, 
roughly? 

Dr. Isbell. Heroin is a derivative of morphine, a chemical deriva- 
tive made by adding two molecules of acetic acid to the morphine 
molecule, by a number of chemical processes. It can be prepared 
from pure morphine or it can be prepared directly from oi3ium. and 
heroin extracted as such. Both processes are used. 

Senator Wiley. What I am interested in, in relation to these drugs, 
is, one, if this is tlie sort of manufactured product that there is a'^^ 
beneficial use for wliatsoever anywhere any place. 

Dr. IsBiiLL. Heroin? 

Senator Wiley. Yes. 

Dr. Isbell. Heroin is extensively used in Europe, and in certain. 
European countries it is preferred to morphine for the relief of pain, 
primarily because the drug produces less nausea than morphine does. 
Morphine in many iiidividuals produces intense nausea and vomiting, 
and it lias a very undesirable action, whereas heroin is much less likely 
to do that. 

Senator Wiley. Do we manufacture it in this country ? 
Dr. IsBEix. No: it is completely barred from medical practice in 
this country because it is twice as potent as morphine, and the pleasant 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 141 

ert'ects are more marked than morpliine, they are more intense, and 
the}' come on quickly and do not hist as h)n<>-. 

Senator Wiij-.y. Is this the driiir your patients have been getting? 

Dr. IsBELL. Yes; a large number of them are, particularly the teen- 
agers, the teen-age addicts we have been talking about. It is all 
snuiggled in, of course, and there is no legal source in the United 
States. 

Senator Wiley. Can you la}' your finger on the chain of smugglei'S? 

Dr. IsBELL. I think that Mr. Anslinger can come close to it. 

Mr. MosER. I think before the hearings on this subject are over that 
we will all know a lot more about the sources. That will be another 
as]>ect of the hearings. 

Senator Wiley. Well, here is a man who is dealing with the fellows 
who have been affected by it, and he certainly ought to be sort of a 
father confessor for these fellows, and if they wanted to talk to him, 
lie would be the one they would talk to. This should be a pretty good 
source to get it, if you have any source material. 

Dr. IsBELL. The people we talk to directly buy their drugs from 
small peddlers who, in turn, have bought it from a wholesaler who, 
in turn, got it from the smuggler and importer. The people we talk 
to know only the small peddlers that they have been dealing with 
directl}'. That is, by and large, the case. 

Now, it is known, of course, that a large part of this heroin that 
is being smuggled into the United States is being manufactured in 
Italy or in illicit factories in Turkey. The production of heroin in 
Italy has been at the rate of approximately 200 kilos per year. 

Senator Wiley. What does that mean ? 

Dr. Isbell. That would be 440 pounds of heroin per year, and the 
medical needs of Italy for heroin or for morphine would amount 
to only about 25 to 50 kilos. So all this excess production, at least 
150 kilos, is going into some other chamiels. 

Mr. MosER. About six times as much as being used there. 

Senator Wiley. Where is that manufactured ? Is it manufactured 
underground, or is it manufactured under Government supervision? 

Dr. Isbell. It is manufactui-ed by regular pharmaceutical manu- 
facturing plants in Italy. The Italian Government, through the United 
Nations — and you can get this information better from Mr. Anslinger — • 
has agreed to limit production to 100 kilos during the coming year. 
That may be reflected in the amount of heroin that will be available 
to addicts in this country. 

Senator Wiley. Well, if we prohibited it, they ought to see that 
none is exported to this country. We just gave them a billion dollars 
in 1 year not so long ago. 

Dr. Isbell. It all moves in in illicit trade. 

Senator Wiley. Oh, it does ? 

Dr. Isbell. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Dr. Isbell, will you tell us veiy briefly the different 
physical aspects of marijuana, cocaine, and heroin? 

Dr. Isbell. Cocaine is a stimulant drug, and in the United States 
it is used in two ways, first as a snuff — a sniff [demonstrating] — and 
second, by injection. Most of the United States addicts prefer to take 
cocaine by injection and intravenously. When so taken, the drug pro- 

85277 — 51 — pt. 14 10 



142 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE C03VUVIERCE 

duces intense sensation of ecstasy, and gives tliem a feeling of great 
strength, and superiority, fatigue declines, and the individual feels 
very happy. 

They sometimes describe it, as the cocaine takes effect, "Cocaine 
makes me hear bells ring." 

This ecstatic sensation is very transient, but it must be extremely 
pleasant, at least to this type of person, because an individual who 
uses cocaine intravenously will take repeated doses of it at very short 
intervals. He will take one dose, and a half hour later take another, 
and keep on going until finally he is taking perhaps as much as a 
whole grain of cocaine intravenously every 5 or 10 minutes. He will 
keep on injecting it over and over again until his entire supply, which 
may be a whole ounce of cocaine, is exhausted. 

Now, as he repeats these injections, in order to recapture this ecstatic 
sensation, the toxic effect accumulates. These toxic effects are due to 
stimulation of part of the brain, the cerebral cortex, and the autonomic 
nervous system. These individuals become extremely apprehensive 
and tense, nervous, tremulous, shaky, and if they take too much co- 
caine they have convulsions. They cannot straighten their legs. They 
call it freezing. 

Their blood pressure is up, their pupils are dilated, their tendon 
reflexes increase. As they go along, they become temporarily insane 
or psychotic. They have hallucinations of nonexistent insects flying 
through the air, and insects crawling on the skin, and they believe 
they are being watched by a detective, and they have a name for this 
detective. His name is "Steve." 

Senator Hunt. Before you get away from the physiological as- 
pects, what effect does it have on the force and rate of the heartbeat? 

Dr. IsBELL. The pulse rate is increased, the blood pressure is raised. 
Cocaine has an action similar to that of adrenalin. 

Mr. MosER. Now, what can you tell us about marijuana ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Marijuana in this country is smoked, it is not eaten in 
the form of hashish as it is in Africa. They smoke the leaves of mari- 
juana, and the smoke is very irritating. It is inhaled in a short puff 
[demonstrating], and additional air is inhaled behind it, and the 
smoke is held down as long as possible. 

The effects of marijuana are to induce a rather mild and pleasant 
state of intoxication, pleasant to these people, at least, and they be- 
come, as they call it, "high." They giggle and laugh over minor 
jokes. They like to listen to hot music, and generally to have a good 
time. They have disturbances in the perception of time and space. 
They generally feel that time is passing very slowly. 

They may also feel that distances are great, or that they can step 
very high. Usually, the majority of persons, that is, all that occurs 
with the smoking of marijuana. 

However, in certain predisposed susceptible individuals, they be- 
come temporarily insane, just as they do in using cocaine, and while 
psychotic they may be quite frightened and may harm themselves. In 
other words, they may feel that someone is after them, or they may 
jump out of a high window to escape from them, or they may assault 
even their best friends whom they feel, during this temporary period 
of insanity, are trying to harm or persecute them. 

So marijuana is not an innocuous drug at all in some cases. 

The Chairman. Is it habit-forming? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 143 

Dr. IsBEix. It is not habit-fonning, in the sense that morphine is. 
It does not prodnce physical dependence. One can smoke marijuana 
for months and stop, and you will not become ill. 

Senator Wiley. But can they stop 'i 

Dr. IsBELL. Just like that [snappino- fingers]. 

Senator Wiley. In other words 

Dr. IsBELL. It is just as easy to stop smoking marijuana, or perhaps 
easier, than it is to stop smoking cigarettes. 

Senator Wiley. Well, that is not very easy for some people. 

Dr. Vogel. You don't get physically ill if you stop using marijuana 
or tobacco. 

Mr. MosER. There are no withdrawal symptoms ? 

Dr. Isbell. There are no withdrawal symptoms after the smoking 
of marijuana. 

Mr. MosER. What does it do to your inhibitions ? 

Dr. IsBELL. They are definitely lowered. 

Dr. VoGEL, Like with alcohol, it makes you drunk. 

Mr. MosER. Do you feel that marijuana is usually a stepping stone 
to the taking of heroin with young people ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. What does it do to your health ? 

Dr. IsBELL. It does not produce physical damage to the indi- 
vidual 

Senator Wiley. Who is peddling that stuff? 

Dr. IsBELL, The same people, I think, that peddle heroin. The source 
of it is different. Most of the marijuana that is sold illegally is either 
smuggled up from Mexico, or occasionally it is grown in this country, 
or it is smuggled in from Africa. 

Mr. MosER. Now, tell us about the physical effects of heroin. 

Dr. Isbell. Heroin in this country is taken usually as a snuff, ini- 
tially in addiction. Most of these are young people tliat have gradu- 
ated from marijuana to taking heroin by sniffing, and finally they 
graduate to using it hypodermically, and generally intravenously. 

Now, when heroin is taken intravenously it produces a sensation of 
intense dizziness and rumbling iit the stomach, and does not produce 
flushing and tingling, as it does with morphine. When one injects 
morphine, you become intensely red in the upper part of the body, 
and you tingle and itch. This does not occur with heroin. 

One of the differences between heroin and morphine is that you sud- 
denly become dizzy, there is a rumbling in your stomach, and the sen- 
sation, if one traces it down carefully, is compared by addicts to that 
of a sexual orgasm, except that it is referred to in the stomach instead 
of the genitals. 

Following this intense thrill from intravenous injection, which oc- 
curs immediately, these individuals become drowsy, peaceful, calm and 
contented, and they like to sit around dreaming and putting off deci- 
sions until tomorrow. 

The effect of heroin in a single dose of average size will last about 
4 or 5 hours, and then gradually disappear. 

Mr. MosER, Then they have to take another one ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Then they have to take another one in order to recap- 
ture the sensation again and, of course, still another one. 



144 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COAIMERCE 

Usually the patient is one who first has smoked marijuana, and then 
is introduced to heroin by his associates oi* contacts, who are also using 
marijuana. You find that heroin is a much more satisfying and less 
frightening drug than is marijuana. So you decide to use it. 

At first you sniff the heroin like this [demonstrating]. And you 
sniff' it maybe once a week, on Saturday nights, and you may keep 
that up for quifo at time, and then you decide to sniff some on Wednes- 
day night, and iiually you are doing it every day. 

Senator Wiley. This is heroin you are talking about? 

Dr. IsBELL. Heroin, yes. You decide to stop, and you feel bad, so 
then you take another dose, and immediately you feel good. Soon you 
are taking more than one dose a day, and you finally take four or five 
or six. Then if you try to stop you really become intensely ill, and 
if you try to stop you become first sleepy, and you go into an abnormal 
sleep, it is called a "sleepy yen'' by these patients, and finally you be- 
gin to yawn and you being to sweat and your eyes begin to run. your 
nose begins to run. 

Mr. MosER. These are called withdrawal symptoms? 

Dr. IsBELL. They are called withdrawal symptoms, and then you 
begin to ache, your muscles ache, and they jerk and twitch uncon- 
trollably, and you are unable to sleep, you are unable to eat, you vomit, 
you lose weight, and you have a slight fever with it. 

Senator AViley. Well, you would not suggest that I should take 
some in order to lose weight ? [Laughter.] 

Mr. MosER. In order to overcome these withdrawal symptoms in 
order to avoid being sick, they have to take more heroin ; is that right? 

Dr. IsBELL. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. Is it true that they have to keep increasing the quantity 
in order to kee]i from being sick ? 

Dr. IsiJELE. Oh, no. You can hold the dose at one level, and you 
will not become sick. It can be done, definitely, but they do not get 
the ])leasant effects then, so if they have access to it and can get it, 
they keep using it, and the tendency for addicts with narcotics is to 
keep the dose going up and up and up. They are trying to recapture 
the pleasant effect by increasing the dose. However, they would not 
get sick if they were given a definite amount. 

Mr. MosER. Some patients have described to me the sensation of 
waking up sick. They say that they take it for a while, some of the 
young people take it for perhaps o or 4 weeks, taking a dose every 
time they feel like it, and then one morning tliey wake up and they feel 
real sick, so they take a shot of heroin to overcome being sick, and then 
they know that they are hooked. "Hooked" means that they have to 
have it from then on in order to avoid being sick. The term they use 
is "hooked"; is that correct. Doctor? 

Dr. IsBELL. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. When you say "sick," do you mean that the stomach 
is upset, they have pains, headaches, backaches; what do you mean by 
being sick? 

Dr. IsBELL. They mean that they are unalde to sleep, unable to eat, 
nauseating, they vomit and they have a teriffic cramping of the 
muscles, back and legs, and they have fever and all of that. 

Mr. MoSER. You have described marijuana, cocaine, and heroin. 
Will you tell us what a "speed ball" is? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 145 

Di'. IsBELL. A "speed ball'' is a mixture of heroin and cocaine taken 
simultaneously. 

In this country we seldom see pure cocaine addiction, because the 
toxic effects are so <2:reat that practically all these people who use 
cocaine will use an antidote so that they do not have the unpleasant 
etfects of cocaine, and they then use heroin, a mixture of the two, and 
that is called a "speed ball." 

Mr. MosER. That gives them an extra thrill ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Let me get that straight; you talk about extra 
thrills. Do you mean a tingling of the nerves, or what ^ 

Dr. IsBELL. I will tell you, you will have to talk to them, and even 
then you wom't know. They are actually unable to clearly describe 
this sensation. 

Senator Wiley. Well, do they claim that it is — Who was that back 
]n English history who was an addict? 

Mr. Hepbron. You are thinking about DeQuincey. He wrote "The 
Confessions of an English Opium-Eater." 

Senator Hunt. You know% Edgar Allen Poe was a dope fiend. But 
he didn't write anything pleasant. 

Senator Wiley. Well, I want to get back again right there wdien 
you talk about a sensation I would like to know .what that is, because 
is it your theory that it is these pleasant sensations, whatever they are, 
1hat cause this? There must be a combination of nerve tingling with 
maybe a sort of fake mental exaltation, that tells them to repeat it. 
Is that the idea ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Initially, yes. 

Senator Wiley. And they become slaves to this desire for it; is 
that it ? 

Dr. Isbell. Initially that is true, but finally, if they are using heroin 
they are slaves to taking it to keep from becoming ill. The pleasur- 
able effects are gone. That, of course, is not true with cocaine. 

Senator Wiley. Well, that gives me an idea again. 

Mr. MosER. That is when they are hooked ? 

Dr. Isbell. That is when they are hooked. They take it to keep 
from being sick. 

Senator Wiley. Well, that is like a lot of guys, I don't know any in 
the room, but the first thing that they have got to do is to have a ciga- 
rette in the morning. 

Dr. Isbell. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. And if they don't have that they will say that they 
will get sick. 

Mr. ]MosER. Well, tobacco is definitely a narcotic drug, Senator. 

Now. I want to get the analogy here, I just want to see. Now, 
coupled with that, once you have got them hooked, then they have got 
to accentuate the dose in order to keep from getting sick; is that it? 

Dr. Isbell. They do not have to increase the dose in order to keep 
from getting sick, they will not get sick so long as they stay at one 
level. But in order to get the pleasurable effect they have to increase 
it above that level that will prevent sickness. The tendency is to 
continually keep increasing it. 

Mr. Mt)SER. They are after a thrill, and they keep trying to build 
it up? 



146 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Dr. IsBELL. That is right, and once that stage is reached 

Senator Wiley. Once that is done, would that not have the possible 
effect of ruining the body and the mind ? Isn't that right ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Well, I will have to give you a complicated answer to 
that. Actually, the use of morphine or heroin does not produce any 
anatomical changes in the tissues. It is perfectly compatible with 
the state of good health to use these drugs, good physical health. 

The effects we do see with morphine and heroin, at least, are sec- 
ondary. They are due to infections and abscesses due to unclean 
habits in taking the injection. It is due to taking all of their money 
and using it for drugs and not eating. They sleep outside, they sleep 
in the railroad cars, and things like that, and that is what causes their 
ill health rather than anything directly due to the effect of the drug. 

The Cpi AIRMAN. But some of the pictures we saw, though, don t 
you think that that would not have quite a decided effect on the ner- 
vous system, judging from the after effects that we just noted in the 
pictures — I don't see how it could be possible that the nervous system 
would not be affected adversely. 

Dr. IsBELL. Yes, there is a definite change in the nervous system, 
but it is physiological and temporary. There is no permanent dam- 
age. After a man is off' drugs, from a physical point of view, after 
a few months, he is -in just as good physical shape as if he had not 
taken them. 

Senator Wiley. Mentally also? 

Dr. IsBELL. Mentally, no, because these peoj)le develop emotional 
dependence. First of all, we have to remember that the majority of 
these individuals are abnormal people, to begin with, they are neurotic 
or maladjusted people. 

Senator Wiley. Not the youngsters ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Not the youngsters, not so much the youngsters but 
the old ones, as they take drugs these neurotic habits become more 
fixed, and because of their association with the underworld and the 
secrecy of the habit, and the view that people have of the habit, 
even if they Avere relatively normal to begin with they deteriorate, 
they become sickly intellectually and the drug becomes an answ^er to 
all of their problems. 

Instead of taking a constructive solution for their problem, say 
you have trouble with your boss, and instead of talking it out with him 
the addict takes a shot, and then he doesn't have to worry about 
talking it out with the boss. 

Mr. MosER. Do drugs cause many deaths from overdoses ? 

Dr. IsBELL. I do not believe there are a great number of deaths from 
opiates, and that includes heroin. 

Occasionally it does occur. All I can tell you about that is what 
we read in the newspapers, and the vital statistics of death from 
opiates show that they are rather small. They account for less than 
one-tenth of all the deaths of drug users. 

However, barbiturates are the great problem of deaths from drugs 
in this country. 

Senator Wiley. Well, define barbiturates. I will admit that I am 
an ignoramus. 

Dr. IsBELL. It is a derivative of malonylurea. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 147 

Senator Wiley. Well, that again hits the sky ; that does not mean 
anything to me. Describe it in plain terms. 

Dr. IsBELL. It is a sleeping pill, and it has a tendency to make you 
go to sleep. 

Mr. INIosER. Cite some trade names. 

Dr. Isr.ELL. Well, the common drugs in use are phenobarbital, sec- 
ronal, and nembutal. Those are the three most common drugs used in 
this country. 

Senator Huxt. Would amytal be one ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How about luminal ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Thank God I am not acquainted with any of them. 

Tell me if there is another one of these deteriorating termites — or 
are all of those manufactured here? 

Dr. IsBELL. Oh, yes, they are manufactured, and very widely sold. 
They are very useful clrugs, extremely useful. 

Senator Wiley. They are useful, you say ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. In what way ? 

Dr. IsBELL. They are used — one of the gi-eat uses is for the control 
of epilepsy. The majority of epileptics in our country are on a small 
ration of barbiturates daily. A great many people with high-blood 
pressure are given a small amount of barbiturates daily. Barbitur- 
ates are used for gastric ulcers. People with gastric ulcers receive 
small amounts of barbiturates daily. 

Senator Wiley. What does it do to them, create a habit? 

Dr. IsBELL. No ; not in the amount they use. This is like alcohol, 
if the people use it properly it will not hurt them. If they take only 
the dose prescribed, then they are benefited. Occasionally individuals 
will run the dose up, and instead of taking 1 capsule per night they 
will take 15 to 20 capsules per clay. 

Senator Wiley. Well, putting it from the standpoint of legislation, 
then we have no problem in that direction? 

Dr. IsBELL. Oh, no. On the contrary, I think we do. But I think 
the type of legislation we need on those drugs is from a Federal point 
of view, and tliat is to strengthen the Food and Drug Act so that the 
Food and Drug Administration would have authority clearly to pro- 
hibit refills of prescriptions, and to make all of these drugs available 
only on prescription. 

Mr. JNIosER. Senator Wiley, in my own investigations of the subject, 
with a view to deciding what the committee should go into, I have 
come to the conclusion that the barbiturates do not come into the field 
of organized crime. As Dr. Isbell says, that is a field for the amend- 
ment of the Food and Drug law, but so far there has been no element 
of crime involved, whereas on heroin and opiates, they do become 
one of the elements of organized crime. 

Senator Wiley. 'Well, I am especially interested in it because it 
crosses the State boundary lines, I take it? 

JMr. Moser. Yes. 

Dr. Isbell, it has been said frequently that drug addition is a con- 
tagious disease. Now, I think you have made it clear that it is a 
disease because the people who are addicted to drugs become so 



148 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

because of various psychological and emotional aspects of their 
make-up. 

Will you tell us what they mean by a contagious disease? 

Dr. IsBELL. Well, most addicts in this country become addicts 
because of their association with individuals who are already using 
the drug. That is especially true among these younger people. For 
instance, there are young fellows running around together at that 
age when one naturally experiments with things, and it might be 
alcohol, or it might be women, but it happens to be that in this par- 
ticular society, in this particular block, some of the kids are smoking 
marijuana, and he looks up to these people and regards them as big, 
tougli folks, and he asks them for marijuana and they give it to him. 
They tell him where to buy it. 

He smokes marijuana for a while. Marijuana is illegal, and in his 
going to buy marijuana it will lead him into contact with individuals 
who are selling heroin. 

Or he might go on a party, and some one of his associates will 
suggest, well, instead of smoking marijuana weed, as they call it, he 
wdll say, "Well, let's get some heroin." They say, "Let's get some 
horse." He says, "Wliat is 'horse' " ? They say, "I don't know, but 
it is a better high, you get a better kick than you do Avith marijuana. 
All right, we will get some." 

So they go and get some and try it. It does make them liigh and 
they like it, but they don't know what the end result will be, and they 
go on fooling with this heroin. 

If they are fooling with it, then there are a bunch of children 
coming up who are a little younger, and Avill naturally fall in with 
them, and they suggest that these other kids take heroin, too, for the 
kick. 

So it spreads from one to the other in that fashion. 

Mr. MoSER. How do you find it among families ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Occasionally one does run into families in which a 
number of them are addicts. 

Mr. ]\IosER. Where most of the family are addicted ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Yes, but I don't believe that is the general rule, however. 

Dr. VoGEL. This may be off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. MosER. Well, now, what Dr. Vogel has just said did not go on 
the record, and I think it should go on the record. 

Dr. Vogel. I did not want to inject myself into the discussion. You 
frequently find that a man and his wife are addicts at the same time. 
I do not recall seeing, with one exception, more than one child in the 
family addicted. 

Mr. Hepbron. Wasn't there one family here recently where the 
father, mother, three sons and a sister, were all users? 

Dr. Vogel. It is quite possible, but I don't know of it. 

Senator Wiley. You mean addicts to the use of heroin ? 

Dr. Vogel. Yes ; a man and wife are frequently addicted. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, will you tell us very briefly of the system of 
treatment — I mean Dr. Isbell. 

Dr. Isbell. The system of treatment, of course, here involves two 
phases. First there comes the withdrawal from the drug, and the sec- 
ond is our effort to do what we can to rehabilitate the individual. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 149 

Senator Hunt. What was the first? 

Dr. IsBELL. The withdrawal of the drug. 

Senator Hunt. But you used some word before withch-awaL What 
was that word, Mr. Reporter? 

( Record read.) 

Senator Hunt. Thank you. 

Dr. IsBELL. In the withdrawal we use routinel}^ here a system where- 
by we substitute methadone. This is a synthetic drug which is itself 
addicting, and we substitute methadone for whatever drug the addict 
has been taking. Then we reduce that rapidly over a period which 
varies from a matter of a couple of days on up to two or three weeks 
in individuals who are very definitely dependent on drugs. 

By using this system tlie withdrawal symptoms are greatly mini- 
mized. 

After withdrawal is completed, the man is discharged from the ad- 
mission service, and then if he had any serious physical disease he 
would go to our infirmary unit, where such treatment as was possible, 
both medical and surgical, would be carried out in order to attempt 
to alleviate those physical conditions. 

In addition to that he goes into our general rehabilitative program, 
which involves generally a program designed to teach him to work, to 
live, to think, to sleep and play without drugs. 

First of all, he has a work assignment, and participates in some kind 
of a program. We have tried to, wherever possible, encourage him to 
add new skills to any that he might possess, or keep any skills that he 
has sharpened uj). He gets a complete ])sychiatric examination, and 
in selected cases he is encouraged to participate in group psychother- 
apy, where the physicians and the patients attem[)t to talk out the 
problems, and they come to a deeper understanding of what is wrong 
in their personalities. Certain selected ])atients mav get the benefit 
of this therapy. We cannot give it to all of them. There are just too 
many of them. 

They also have a program of recreational therapy, movies, baseball, 
and things of that sort, and before the man goes out we attempt to 
help him make a plan, to have a job some place to go to work, and that, 
I tliink, about sums up the whole matter. 

Senator Wiley. Do you cure them ? 

Mr. MosER. I was going to ask a question along that line. The ad- 
dicts seem to have the impression, at least some of them have the im- 
pression, that they can be cured by giving some kind of a drug or medi- 
cine that will make them so they don't want it any more. As I under- 
stand it, that is incorrect, that there is no cure, except withdrawal of 
the drug, and psychological and emotional readjustment. Is that 
correct ? 

Dr. IsBELL. That is correct. 

Mr. MosER. But there is no such thing as actually curing them from 
addiction 

Dr. IsBELL. Well 

Mr. ISIosER. Unless they rehabilitate their outlook ? 

Dr. IsBELL. That is right. In the first place, it takes a long time 
to really make a complete physical recovery from withdrawal. It is a 
matter of months. 

Mr. MosER. You plan on 4 months here ? 



150 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Dr. TsBELL. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Four is the minimum, or 41/0 months; is that correct? 

Dr. IsBELi.. Yes. And, second, the individual must attempt to reor- 
ganize his thinking and determine what is wrong with him as a person. 

He must get his emotional situation cleared up. 

Senator Wiley. Well, many a man has quit taking booze. I know 
that I quit smoking cigars for 41/0 years once. I just threw my pipe 
away for 4i/4 years to see whether I was boss or the pipe was boss. 

I was wondering whether it was something like that, or I won- 
dered whether it created an internal liking for this thing, and what 
it does to the man's thinking processes, and so forth. That is what 
I am interested in, because I never accept the proposition that there 
is no cure for anything. If we did, you fellows would quit experi- 
menting. 

I think that there are always new channels, new directions, and 
new visions opening up for the race. I would like to get that definite, 
so far as I can, just what it is. Is it an internal hunger for it, or what ? 

Dr. VoGEL. I would like to comment on that. We must consider 
that narcotic addiction is a chronic disease with a tendency to relapse 
and recurrence, one which may require retreatment. 

I know of many patients who have stayed off drugs for years, 
indefinitely, I know of many other patients that have stayed off 
temporarily for a period of 6 or 9 months, a year, or 2 years, and 
still require retreatment, after which they will stay off for another 
year or two. 

In our statistics of cure, I don't think in our statistics, in considering 
cures, I don't think we have to say that a person must stay off for the 
rest of his life in order to be a worthwhile result of treatment. In 
cases of diabetes or heart disease or high blood pressure, or cancer, 
sometimes, or i-heumatism, or gastric ulcers is a good example, it is 
necessary to return to the hospital for retreatment, and in the case 
of a relapse if, after a treatment of 41/2 months, a patient goes out 
and stays off for a year or two, I think that is a worthwhile treatment, 
so long as he is not a parasite on society for that period of time. 

We must take some credit for those who are staying off temporarily. 
I have known of many who have stayed off for years and years. It 
is a chronic disease with a tendency to relapse. We must consider 
it in that ]:)hase. As I told them loefore you came in, our records 
show that 60 percent of all our patients treated here have been here 
once, and only 40 percent have been here more than once. 

Mr. MosER. Well, I think that is all. Dr. Isbell. Is that all, Mr. 
Chairman ? 

The Chairman. I think so. Yes. Thank you very much. Doctor. 
We are very much obliged to you. 

Mr. MosER. Now, we are a little behind in our schedule, and I want 
to keep the pressure on. 

The Chairman^. All right. Will you call your next witness? 

Mr. MosER. Well, Mr. Hepbron will be our next witness. 

The Chairman. Will you be sworn, Mr. Hepbron, please ? 

Mr. Hepbron. Yes. 

The Chairman. In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear 
that vou will testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth? 

Mr. Hepbron. I do. 



ORGAXIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 151 

TESTIMONY OF JAMES M. HEPBRON, ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT 
TO SENATE CRIME INVESTIGATING COMMITTEE 

The Chairman. Will you give us your full name, please, Mr. Hep- 
bron ? 

Mr. Hepbron. James M. Hepbron. 

The Chairman. And your position is what ? 

Mr. Hepbron. At present I am administrative assistant to the Sen- 
ate Crime Committee. 

The Chairman. And you have always been identified with what 
activity ? 

Mr. Hepbron. In the field of crime and administration of justice 
for 35 years. 

The Chairman. Will you take over, Mr. Moser? 

Mr. INIosER. Mr. Hepbron, in connection with those activities, you 
have become familiar with addiction and criminal addicts, have you 
not? 

Mr. Hepbron. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Would you please review for us a few of the commonly 
used terms wdiicli addicts use to describe the various situations and 
products, making it as clear as possible so that we will understand 
what the addicts are saying when they come in to testify. 

Mr. Hepbron. Well, first of all, they refer to a "cap." A "cap" is 
a little packet or bundle of heroin which has been put into a capsule. 

They speak of buying a cap. That is a "cap." 

Then they will speak of "cold turkey." "Cold turkey" is a method 
of treatment of an addict by which they are given no drugs whatever. 
They are simply cut right off immediately. 

They will refer to having a "connection." A "connection" is a peddler 
or one through whom they are able to secure the drug. 

They will refer to "skin shot," meaning a shot under the skin, which 
is not as rapid in its effect, but a little longer lasting. ^ 

They will speak of a "vein shot," which is directly in the vein. 

You will hear the term that they are "charged," which means that 
they have a dose that is more than sufficient to cause them a little 
drowsiness or sleepiness. It is more than their average dose that is 
necessary. 

You will hear the term "hooked" used quite frequently, which means 
that the addict realizes he is addicted, he has reached the point where 
lie cannot get along without the drug, without being sick. 

They will speak of a person as a "main liner." A "main liner" is 
one who goes directly into the vein with the drug. 

To be "sick" means that he has the nausea and sickness described 
by Dr. Isbell, when he does not get his dosage. 

You will hear them use the term "up and down the lines." To the 
old addict "up and down the lines" means that they have collapsed 
all the veins of their arms through constant usage, and scar tissue 
has caused them to fill so that they cannot shoot it in. 

They will speak of the "week-end habit." That is one who starts 
out just taking it over the week-ends, the thrill-user, who quickly 
moves into the other addiction. 

"Joy popping" is a term that you will find that they use. These 
are beginners who take it occasionally, and one who gets sick from 
"joy popping" is sometimes referred to as a "student." 



152 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The "big man" is the big- wholesaler ^Yllom the addict rarely, if ever, 
knows, becanse there are so many steps between him and the final 
peddler or seller. 

A "hot shot" may be used, and that term means the introduction 
of a poison, usually cyanide, which kills the addict very quickly. 
When they get rid of an addict who has become particularly trouble- 
some, and they want to blot him out, they give him a "hot shot." 

A "square" is a person who is a nonaddict. 

And you will hear the term "boosting." The term "boosting" 
means that they resort to boosting in order to get the money for the 
drug. Boosting is shoplifting. 

"lieefers" or "weeds" are marijuana cigarettes. 

The current term for heroin is "horse." 

Sometimes they call it "H," because it begins with the letter "H." 
They use the term "M" for morphine and "C" for cocaine. 

Any word beginning with "M" means morphine, "H" means heroin, 
and "C" means cocaine. 

I think these are about all the terms you will hear. 

The Chairman. Well, we have heard them use the term very much 
about having a "bag." 

JMr. Hepbron. a "bag" is something that a peddler refers to ; when 
a man becomes a drug peddler he refers to the fact that he has a bag, 
"I deal with So-and-So, who has a bag." He is a seller. Now, for all 
I know, that may be a colloquialism just used in certain communities. 

The Chairman. Yes. We heard very much of that in Maryland. 
They talked about it, and they said that So-and-So had a bag. 

Dr. VoGEL. These terms cliange rapidly in certain parts of the 
country. 

Senator Hunt. What is "on the nod"? 

INIr. Hepbron. That means when he has had more than his share 
and he goes into a semi-comatose state. You saw pictures showing 
him. That means that he is "on the nod." 

The Chairman. Very good. 

Mr. MosER. Thank you very much, Mr. Hepbron. 

Dr. VoGEL. Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Dr. VoGEL. On the record. 

Mr. Hepbron. These terms that 1 have used here, the addicts use 
among themselves, but you may find today, as they appear here, that 
they will not use them because they realize that they are talking to 
"squares." [Laughter.] 

They sometimes refer to them as "square apples." 

Mr. MosER. We will now call in the next witness. I might say that 
these witnesses have all been interviewed in advance, and they would be 
very reluctant to talk except for the fact that we have assured them 
that we have not tried to get them into trouble, and that we shall not 
ask them anything about their connections, because if they should 
reveal their connection and be caught they might be exposed to the 
danger of being killed themselves. 

So that what we are going to ask them is merely how they became 
addicts, and what the nature of the problem is. They are all here on 
a voluntary basis, as I said, so we must not treat them as adverse 
witnesses. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 153 

The Chairman. How are you t We go throiio:li the process of 
swearing all the witnesses, and I don't suppose you have any objection 
to being sworn. 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear 
that the testimony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth? 

The Witness. 1 do. 

TESTIMONY OF MR. , DR¥G ADDICT 

The Chairman. Please be seated and make yourself as comfortable 
as possible. 

The Witness. Thank you. 

The Chairman. We just want to say to you before you start that 
Mr. JMoser, who has been talking with you, has expressed our views 
and our desires and intentions. This is entirely a friendly discussion. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. This is a friendly discussion that we are having, 
and we want you to feel that whatever Mr. Moser told you represents 
our views as well, and we are not here to cause you any trouble or any- 
thing of the kind, but just to have the benefit of your views and your 
experience. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. If you will give them to us, please. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Senator, all of the witnesses know and are aware of 
that. 

Will you state your name, please ? 

The Witness. . 

Mr. MosER. What city do you come from ? 

The Witness. Birmingham, Ala. 

JNIr. MosER. You are secretary of an organization called Addicts 
Anonymous ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr, MosER. Here at this institution; is that correct? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. How many are there in that group? . 

The Witness. Well, we have between — it varies — between 35 and 50, 
in that neighborhood, an average of around 35 regular attendants. 

Mr. INIosER. How often do you meet? 

The Witness. Twice a week. 

Mr. MosER. What do you do at your meetings? 

The Witness. AYell, it is kind of a therapy, it is kind of a group 
therapy, you could call it. It is whereby men tell of their experiences 
and the different various things that they have done, and by that, wh}^, 
we find ourselves listening to some other man's story, and we look at 
ourselves in a way which we had never seen ourselves before. 

Mr. MosER. In other words, it is an attempt to understand each 
other ? 

The Witness. To understand each other's problems; yes. 

Mr. MosER. As well as your own? 

The Witness. That is right. It is fellowship, in other words. 



154 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. What is your age? 

The Witness. Forty-nine. 

Mr. MosER. How many times have you been at this institution? 

The Witness. Twice. 

Mr. MosER. How long have you been an addict ? 

The Witness. Well, really I have been addicted since 1946. I have 
been addicted vA various times, but I never was really addicted until 
1946. 

Mr. MosER. You mean that you used drugs before that ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. What drug were you using? 

The Witness. Well, I have never used anything otlier than morphine 
or dilaudid. Those are opiate derivatives. 

Mr. Moser. My recollection is that you started to use drugs because 
of an illness. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And eventually you realized that you were hooked ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Would you like to tell us what the effect of addiction, 
has been upon your earning power? 

The Witness. Well, after you really become addicted, you just do 
not have much earning power, because that habit drives you so until 
you are not able to work, if you have not got the stuff, and it just keeps 
you going all the time. You have to be looking for it. You can work 
for a while, and then you have got to quit working. You have got to 
start looking for that stuff'. 

Mr. Moser. It becomes more important than anything in life; 
does it? 

The Witness. It becomes the most important thing in your life at 
the time when you are hooked and are addicted, so to speak. 

Mr. Moser. And you lose time from your work ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You are irregular ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You are not up to doing the job ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. And it eventually drives you to crime; does it? 

The Witness. Well, it never has me, but I can see that it would 
have, if I had continued. I have never done some of the things that 
the other fellows have done, but I don't class myself a bit better than 
they are because I did not go as far as they did. 

Mr. Moser. What is the charge you are in here on ? 

The Witness. False prescriptions. 

Mr. Moser. You used that as a means of getting drugs ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. What has been the effect on your family life? 

The Witness. Well, it has almost broken up my home. In fact, 
it has twice. This makes twice. 

I have thrown away and lost everything that I had accumulated. 
I have just thrown it away on drugs. 

Mr, Moser. Do you have any children ? 

The Witness. One. 

Mr. Moser. A son ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COJVIMEECE 155 

The Witness. One son. 

Mr. MosER. How old is he? 

The Witness. He is 22. 

Mr, JNIosER. What is your feeling about him, with regard to drug 
addiction ^ 

The Witness. Well, he doesn't know too much about my addiction. 
He has been in the Navy since he finished high school. That has been 
4 years ago. 

Mr. MosEE. I think you told me that you would do anything in 
the world to keep him from having it happen to him 'i 

The Witness. Well, I would, and I wish that there were something 
I could do about tlie other teen-agers. The other juveniles. It is pa- 
thetic, wlien you look at the young boys in this institution that have 
become addicted to drugs. 

Mr. MosER. Do you tliink that they Avould have been less likely to 
stai-t if they had known what they were getting into ? 

The Witness. That would be a hard question to answer. Some take 
it for a thrill to begin with, or on a dare, so to speak. They really 
don't know what they are getting in for. You cannot talk to them. 
They Avill listen to you ; but, by the time you get away or turn your 
back, they are laughing at you or making fun of what you said. 

Mr. MosER. Mr. Witness, you have studied the question of how to 
get off and how to cure yourself. What is your feeling about it, 
especially in connection with Addicts Anonymous ? 

The Witness. Well, first, I believe that a man has got to want to be 
cured, and rid himself of the habit. I have found in the study of 
this program that I believe the onl}' solution is a program which has 
a spiritual side to it. It is not a religious program. It is a moral 
program. 

Mr. MosER. You mean the Addicts Anonymous program? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Where do you start in this program? 

The Witness. Well, you mean, how do we start? 

Senator Wiley. The reason I asked was this : I had a friend who was 
in Alcoholics Anonymous, and he told me that he came out of a terrific 
situation. He said that he started with the idea that of his own voli- 
tion he could do nothing, but that w^ith God everything was possible. 

The Witness. That is right. We follow the same steps that Alco- 
holics Anonymous follow. We just substitute the word "drugs'' for 
"alcohol." 

Mr. MosER. You have to believe that there is something bigger than 
yourself? 

The Witness. First, you have got to believe that there is a power 
greater than we are. 

Senator Wiley. That is correct. 

The Witness. As individuals. It does not necessarily mean — well, 
some might believe that that power was something else — but the main 
thing is to have someone believe that there is a power greater than 
he is. 

Senator Wiley. Who is ready and available to help. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. What success do you think there has been among people 
who have followed the program of "AA"? 



156 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Well, we have quite a number of men that have been 
members of this o:i'oup, and they have been living a life free of drugs, 
and living a happy life for 1, 2, and 3 years. 

Mr. MosER. And do they get others to follow them ? 

The Witness. Well, they do. It would be kind of hard to say as to 
how many members we have that have left this institution, because they 
don't all write us. 

Now, we had a letter back a few months ago from a man who was a 
member of this group, back when it was first organized. It was about 
a year old. It has been organized now going on into its fifth year. 

This man had a condition that warranted the use of drugs, but he 
stayed free of them, and he had an attack and died. We had a letter 
from his father, and his father said that in his wallet they found a 
little note stating under no conditions if he was in any accident to 
administer any narcotic drugs to him. 

Mr. Mosek. He really believed in it? 

The Witness. Yes; he really believed in it, and he realized what it 
was ; he realized he just could not take it. 

Mr. Mosek. I think that is all we want to ask the witness. 

The Chairman. I would like to ask this question: You have more 
or less over a period of years been in a position to see others who have 
become addicted to it, or who have taken the first step toward it ; have 
you not 'I 

The Witness. Just in this institution. I never knew an addict in 
my life until I came here. 

The Chairman. You did not, around your own town, get to know 
of others who were taking the stuff in one form or another % 

The Witness. No, sir. 

The Chairman. When was the first time you came here? 

The Witness. 1946. 

The Chairman. Five years ago. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I was wondering if over that period of time you 
noticed that there had been any greater increase in addiction among 
the younger people. 

The Witness. Definitely. 

The Chairman. In recent years, the last year or two. 

The Witness. Definitely. 

Senator Wiley. I would like to ask a question, Mr. Chairman. 
Here is a man who has done a lot of things, you see, and who is sensi- 
tive to the fact that there is a power stronger than his, or stronger 
than he is, and he has seen, apparently, the effect of drugs upon the 
lives of young men in this institution, and others, and he has seen and 
talked with them. 

Now, with your background, and particularly from your viewpoint, 
from the viewpoint of your experience now in this Addicts Anony- 
mous, and having in mind your talking with those youngsters who 
told you how they got into this terrible situation, I will ask you this 
question : 

What direction can you give us — and I ask this prayerfully, because 
you are a man who does some praying, so that we can stop these young- 
sters from going to hell — what would you suggest is the answer, the 
modus operandi that Government should use to stop this ? You know 



ORGANIZED CRIME TN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 157 

how they get the driios; you know a lot of those things. We are ask- 
ing for no names, but we are asking only for guidance that you can 
give your Government in this case, and thus help the youngsters of 
tomorrow so that they do not become enslaved with this thing. 

The Witness. I just don't believe that I could answer that question, 
because I just don't know what the answer would be. 

Senator Wiley. Have you no suggestion as to how to stop the dis- 
tribution of these drugs, how to meet the impact of those who deal 
in it '^ 

The Witness. Well, the only way that it could be stopped would be 
to stop the source of supply, and how that could be done I would not 
know. 

Mr. Moser. We have other witnesses who will give us some views 
on that. 

The Chairman. Senator Hunt ? 

Senator Hunt. What is your occupation when you are outside? 

The Witness. I am a paint contractor by trade and profession. 

Senator Hunt. How long have you here this time ? 

The Witness. About 16 months. 

Senator Hunt. About 16 months ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Senator Hunt. When do you expect to return to civilian life, or 
are you thinking of that? 

The Witness. Well, I try not to think of that too much, because I 
try to keep myself right in this institution, because I believe that when 
a man gets to thinking about the outside, why, he becomes full of 
anxiety, and he cannot keep his mind on what he wants to do. I 
make my time in this institution by staying busy. 

Senator Hunt. That is all, excepting, let me say that those of us 
here wish you well and hope that everything goes well with you when 
you do get out of here. 

The Witness. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Thank you very kindly for your help. 

The Chairman, Good morning, William. We are asking all wit- 
nesses to be sworn, and I do not suppose you would have any objections 
to that? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. Very well. Will you raise your right hand, please. 

In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear that the testi- 
mony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth ? 

The Witness. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF ME.^ , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. Now, your full name is what? 

The Witness. . 

The Chairman. Mr. Moser has explained to you our purpose, and 
we want to give you every assurance that we are not here to cause you 
any difficulty at all, but just to help in any way we can, and ask you 
to help us. 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Will you take over, Mr. Moser? 

85277— 51— pt. 14 11 



158 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. You come from Cleveland, Ohio; do you not? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Your age is what? 

The Witness. At my next birthday I will be 56. 

Mr. MosER. Are you married? 

The Witness. Single. 

Mr, Moser. And your trade was what, before you came here ? 

The Witness. I was a barber. 

Mr. Moser. How did you start using drugs ? 

The Witness. Well, I started smoking. 

Mr. Moser. Smoking opium? 

The Witness. In 1913; yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. How did you happen to do that ? 

The Witness. Well, I just was with a crowd that smoked, and one 
of the boys smoked, and I learned to smoke and I liked it. 

Mr. Moser. And eventually you got hooked ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. So then you had to keep on for the rest of your life, 
practically ? 

The Witness. I have had many habits since then. 

Mr. Moser. How many times have you been here ? 

The Witness. Five times. 

Mr. MosER. You were first addicted in 1913? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. So that has been approximately 38 years? 
. The Witness. Approximately 38 years. 

Mr. MosER. And you have had a criminal record for forging checks? 

The Wnitess. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Wliy did you do that ? 

The Witness. To pay the peddler for 

Mr. Moser. For the sole purpose of obtaining money to get drugs? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Have you used morphine? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Heroin? 

The Witness. Keally little heroin, only when I could not obtain 
morphine. 

Mr. Moser. Did you take it with a needle ? 

The Witness. Hypodermically, yes. 

Mr. Moser. In the main line ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Since when? 

The Witness. Well, I think I started around about 1930. 

Mr. Moser. In the main line? 

The Witness. In the main line. 

Mr. Moser. Will you tell us what the effect, in your opinion, has 
been on your life generally ? 

The Witness. Well, physically not much, but morally and finan- 
cially, terrible. 

Mr. Moser. It has practically ruined your life ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And you have been in and out of jail constantly? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 159 

The Witness. I have been practically in and out off and on all the 
time. 

Mr. MosER. Do you know of any escape from it ? 

The Witness. No, not personally, I don't. I don't believe — time 
after time after time I have made up my mind not to use it, but it 
seems to attract me like a magnet, when I see it, and I just lose control 
and return to it. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think if you had known back in 1913 what it 
would do to you that you would have started using it ? 

The Witness. Would I have started it ? 

Mr. ]\Ioser. Yes. 

The Witness. Absolutely not. 

Mr. MosER. Does it seem to be quite prevalent among young people ? 

The Witness. Well, I see more of that here than I did in Cleveland. 
It seems to be that there are too many young people coming in here. 

Mr. MosER. What do you think causes that ? 

The Witness. I really don't know ; fast living, war hysteria, I think. 

Mr. MosER. Well, do you think that youngsters would be more 
likely to start if they knew of the experience of people like yourself — 
or do you think they would be more likely not to start? 

The Witness. I don't believe that a conscientious youngster would 
start if he knew of the consequences. 

]Mr. ]MosER. Does anyone want to ask Mr. any questions? 

Senator Hunt. I was going to throw in an economic question here. 

Do you think, Mr. , because young people nowadays have 

more time on their hands and more money in their pockets that it 
makes it possible for them to get into this habit, whereas years ago 
when they were all busy at the school and on Saturdays, and did not 
have the loose change, they did not have money to buy the drugs, that 
that is one of the reasons why they did not do it before? 

The Witness. That is true; yes. But I believe that the children 
are just as good today as they were when I was a boy. But it seems 
that they are living a little differently. It seems that the peddler 
contacts them a little easier than he did then. It seems — well, I would 
say that the greed for gold causes many to do that. 

Mr, MosER. Causes many of the peddlers to do it ? 

The Witness. It causes many of the peddlers to do it ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Just in that connection I have just one question : 
Without going into names, have you experienced any difficulty in get- 
ting it, say, wiien you have not been in the institution, or off of it for 
awhile, you say when you see it it acts like a magnet, do you have 
trouble in following it along and getting what you need? 

The Witness. No; not a great deal. But I positively would not 
have anything to do with peddlers any more. 

In 1937 I decided that I was only stealing the money and giving it 
to them, and doing time anyway, so I tried to obtain it in a different 
manner. 

Mr. Moser. So you used false prescriptions ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Thank you very much, Mr. . We appreciate 

your help. 

May we have our next witness, please ? 



160 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Good morning. We are swearing all witnesses. 
I do not snppose you mind being sworn ? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please. 

In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear that the testi- 
mony you are about to give will be the. truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth ? . 

The Witness. I do. 

The Chairman. Mr. Moser will ask the questions for the committee. 
We just want to assure you that we are not here to cause you any 
difficulty. We want you to help us, and help us all you can. 

The Witness. Yes. 

TESTIMONY OF MR. , DRUG ADDICT 

Mr. Moser. What is your name? 

The Witness. My name is • . 

Mr. MosER. And what is your age? 

The Witness. My nearest birthday is 44. 

Mr, Moser. Forty-four? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You are a pharmacist by trade ? 

The Witness. That is correct. 

Mr. Moser, How did you become addicted, in the first place ? 

The Witness, I attributed my addiction more or less to the result 
of alcoholism. 

Mr, MosER. And you turned to morphine as a substitute for it; is 
that correct? 

The Witness. I used morphine in order to relieve the hangover 
from alcoholic sprees, 

Mr. Moser. How long have you been addicted ? 

The Witness. Since 1932. 

Mr. Moser. And each time that you have gone back, has it been as 
a relief from alcoholism? 

The Witness. Each relapse has been preceded by the use of alcohol ; 
yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. How many times have you been here ? 

The Witness. This is my eleventh admission here. 

Mr, Moser, Your eleventh admission? 

The Witness, Yes, sir, 

Mr, Moser, Have you been off before that — I mean, in between, have 
you been off sometimes, or do you only go off when you come here ? 

The Witness, You mean, would I remain abstinent for a period 
of time? 

Mr, Moser. Yes. Have you ever kicked the habit yourself ? 

The Witness'. Oh, yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You have kicked it sometimes, but not with great suc- 
cess, I gather? 

The Witness. I only remained off just a few days at a time. 

Mr, Moser. Wliat is the effect on you when you leave here; wdien 
you go out from here, what happens to you ? 

The Witness. You mean how do I feel ? 

Mr. Moser, Yes, 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 161 

The Witness. Well, at an extreme tension, when I first leave. 

Mr. MosER. You are under extreme tension ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Does that make you want alcohol ? 

The Witness. Well, I would not go so far as to say that that in- 
duces the need for alcohol, but I have a feeling of self-consciousness 
and tenseness. 

Mr. MosER. What is your domestic situation ? 

The Witness. I am divorced. 

Mr. MosER. Do you have any children ? 

The Witness. One child, 17 years old, one boy. 

Mr. Moser. Was your divorce caused by your addiction? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And alcohol? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Are you a member of Addicts Anonymous? 

The Witness. I am, sir ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Has it been of any help to you ? 

The Witness. A great deal of help, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Can you tell us in your own words how it helps you ? 

The Witness. Well, the primary aim of the AA program is 
spiritual. The driving force behind it is spiritual, and it is a recog- 
nition of the fact that you are an ill man. This is the way it has 
affected me, that I am an ill man, and that I had had the advantage 
of the very best medical attention known to the medical profession, 
to no avail. I came to the realization that I had to depend upon 
something besides outside help, and I turned to what we speak of in 
the AA as the higher power or a greater power, commonly referred 
to as God, and through prayer and meditation and asking Him for 
help, it has been a good deal of comfort to me. 

Mr. Moser. Why are you in here? What charge are you in on? 

The AYitness. Forgery of prescriptions. 

Mr. Moser. Is that the only way you have gotten drugs, or have you 
gotten drugs through peddlers ? 

The Witness. That is the only way that I ever obtained drugs, 
except when they were prescribed for me legally by a doctor, or when 
I used them in my profession as a pharmacist. 

Mr. Moser. That is all I want to ask Mr. Wartman. Does anyone 
else have any questions ? 

The Chairman. Only this : From your contact with others, while 
you did not deal witli peddlers, have you been in touch with many 
who have to know whether or not it is quite abundant and can be 
gotten pretty easily ? 

The Witness. My knowledge of illegal drug trade is very vague, 
because I never obtained drugs in that way; being a pharmacist, I 
have had access to drugs. The way I violated the law was through 
forgery of iDrescriptions, not through the purchasing from peddlers. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. I appreciate your com- 
ing up. 

Mr. MosER. The next witness is one of the men that you saw in the 
movie undergoing experiments on withdrawal symptoms. His name 
is , the barber ; he and his brother are both here, and we 



162 ORGANIZED CRIME EN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

think other members of the family are also addicted. We also think 
they are peddlers. 

You will find that he is rather furtive, and a little hesitant about 
answering questions, but I have assured him that w^e would not ask 
him anything about his trade, so I think he will give us that picture. 

The Chairman. Good morning, John. John, we are swearing all 
the witnesses as they come here. I do not suppose that you have any 
objection to being sworn? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Will you raise your hand, please. 

In the presence of the Almighty God, do you sw^ear that the testi- 
mony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth? 

The Witness. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MR. , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. Will you give us your name for the record, please? 
And you live where ? 

The Witness. New Orleans, La. 

The Chairman. New Orleans ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How old are you, John ? 

The Witness. I will be 36 next birthday. 

The Chairman. How many times have you been here? 

The Witness. This is my first time. 

The Chairman. Mr. Moser will now ask you questions. 

Mr. Moser. John, you are married and have two children? 

The WiTi^ESs. Two stepchildren. 

Mr. Moser. What is your business ? 

The Witness. You are talking about what? 

Mr. Moser. You were first a clerk, you said ? 

The Witness. I was first a clerk. 

Mr. Moser. In a music store, when you first worked ? 

The Witness. Yes, And then I worked at a dice table. 

Mr. Moser. At a dice table in a gambling casino ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And also you told me that you gambled on the side, 
rather successfully ? 

The Witness. Well, sometimes, you know. 

Mr. Moser, But not always successfully? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. When did you become addicted? 

The Witness. 1943, 1944 — between there. 

Mr. Moser. Now will you tell us how you got to be addicted; 
how it came about? 

The Witness. Well, I first started sniffing it. 

Senator Wiley. You first what? 

The Witness, Started sniffing it, heroin, 

Mr. Moser, Did you ever use "reefers," John ? 

The Witness. I have smoked some of them. 

Mr. Moser. You first started sniffing heroin. Wliy did you do it? 

The Witness. I was just out on a party. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 163 

Mr. MosER. With other people who were doing it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You were just doing what they were doing; is that 
right? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You were in bad company, shall we say ? 

The Witness. Yes ; I will say that. 

Mr. Moser. The others urged you to do it, just the way they would 
offer you a drink, shall we say ? 

The Witness. Yes; the same way. 

Mr. MosER. Was there any evidence that you saw of people, of 
peddlers offering free drugs for the purpose of getting customers? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. You never saw any evidence of that ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. You only saw people giving free drugs to friends at 
these parties? 

The Witness. Yes. Sometimes you pitched in, you know, and 
bought it together, you know. 

Mr. MosER. Yes. But it was done on a social basis more than any- 
thing else? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. How do the youngsters start, do you think? You have 
seen quite a few of these addicts, haven't you? How do they get 
started ? 

The Witness. Well, those that just like — they want to smoke a ciga- 
rette, or they want to do something to get them high, that is all, just 
to get a high feeling, just like taking a drink of whisky, or something 
like that. 

Mr. MosER. They just try that for the feeling of it? 

The Witness. For the thrill of it. 

Mr. Moser. You told me that you think many of them start on 
"goof balls." 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What are "goof balls"? 

The Witness. It is supposed to be a hypnotic, and I think Dr. Isbell 
could give you more of a better definition, more of a better idea than 
that. 

Mr. Moser. It is a barbiturate? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And they take those in Coca-Cola? 

The Witness. Well, they just take it, swallow it with water. 

Mr. MosER. And then they ti\y marijuana for a further thrill? 

The Witness. I guess that is how quite a few get started. 

Mr. MosER. Where do they switch to heroin ? 

The Witness, Well, it is just a thrill that they want to get. 

Mr. MosER. It is more of a thrill; is that right? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Senator Wiley. Just riglit there, what do you mean by a thrill? 

The Witness. What? 

Senator Wiley. What do you mean by a thrill ? 

The Witness. Well, a high feeling just to get high, just like when 
you drink whisky, just like when you sit down and drink whisky. 



164 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. You feel good ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. That is what you mean by a thrill ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Senator Wiley. Is it more than if you got a shot of whisky, that it 
tingles your nerves ; what does it do ? 

The Witness. It is altogether different than whisky. 

Senator Wiley. That is what I am trying to find out. 

The Witness. Well, that is hard to explain, the feeling. It calms 
you down. I can't really explain it to you. It is hard to do that. 
That is something hard to do for a person who has never had any. 

The Chairman. Can't you tell us how it affects you ? 

The Witness. Well, it soothes you, it is just a soothing feeling, 
that is all. 

Mr. MosER. It gives you a general feeling of well-being ; is that a 
way to describe it ? 

The Witness. Yes. It stops all aches and pains. That is another 
feeling, if you have any aches, it will relieve them. 

Mr. MosER. Where do the addicts usually buy heroin when they 
need it in New Orleans ? 

The Witness. Well, just right out on the street, they purchase it 
somewhere. 

Mr. MosER. From a pusher? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And a "pusher" is a peddler ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. They buy it from a peddler on the street? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How do they know a peddler when they see one? 

The Witness. Well, it gets around amongst the fellows that are 
using it, they just pass the word on clown. 

Mr. MosER. Do the peddlers know the addicts when they see them? 

The Witness. Oh, sure. 

Senator Wiley. What do you have to pay? 

The Witness. Well, it varies, you know, $2 or $3. 

Mr. MosER. For a "cap?" 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Two or three dollars a cap in New Orleans? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Have you ever bought it anywhere besides New Orleans? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do the pushers or peddlers move around? Are 
they compelled to change locations very often ? 

The Witness. Oh, yes. 

The Chairman. Then, how do those who want it know where to 
go, or how can they catch up with them for it ? 

The Witness. Well, the word spreads around, the meet one an- 
otlier, they contact one another all around. 

Mr. MosER. Is it pretty plentiful ? 

The Witness. No ; not recently, it has not been. Of course, I have 
been locked up quite a while. I just don't know how it is out there. 

Mr. MosER. But before you came in, it was pretty plentiful ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 165 

The Witness. Not too much, you know. Yon could get it, but I 
don't know just how large a supply it was. I couldn't tell you that. 
Mr. MosER. Were there places where you could go to get it, or was 
it always from a walking peddler on the street ? 

The Witness. They were all out at certain times. There is always 
a way that you can get in touch with them. Someone will know how 
to get in touch with them for you. 

Mr. MosER. You don't go to places where you can use it there? 

The Witness. No; there is no established place. 

Mr. MosER. Does the quality vary quite a lot ? 

The Witness. Oh, yes. 

Mr. MosER. It varies according to the peddlers? 

The Witness. Yes. It is according to how many hands it 'goes 
through. 

Mr. MosER. Each hand it goes through cuts it? 

The Witness. It is cut, sure. 

Mr. MosER. Now, you were able to support your habit, as I under- 
stand, by your income? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you have to engage in any criminal 

The Witness. Well, you see, I have not been out on the street that 
long. My record will show that. The most I have been out on the 
street has been since 1944 — since 1944 it has probably been 5 or 6 
months. 

Mr. MosER. You get caught and get put back in ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. INIosER. What have you been caught for, peddling? 

The Witness. Possession of narcotics. 

Mr. MosER. Have you ever been arrested for peddling ? 

The Witness. I was arrested for conspiracy in 1938. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever engage in any crimes for the purpose of 
getting money for the purchase of drugs? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Because your income was sufficient from these other 
sources ? 

The Witness. No ; I just did not resort to that. 

Mr. Moser. Well, you did not have to ? 

The Witness. I kept myself up pretty well on those things. 

Mr. Moser. If you had realized what addiction would do to you, 
and what effect it would have on your life before you started, and if 
you realized that you would get hooked, would you have started? 

The Witness. No, sir. I don't think I would have taken the first. 

Senator Wiley. You have got children, haven't you ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Would you like to get them started in the business? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Why? 

The Witness. Well, it just ruins your life, that is all. 

Senator Wiley. ^Vliat? 

The Witness. You are doing time for the rest of your life. 

Senator Wiley. Can you make a suggestion as to how we can stop 
the kids from getting it, your kids and other kids ? 



166 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Well, I tell you what I have seen in this institution, 
there are quite a few of the kids in here that don't have the habit. 
Quite a few of them are just trying to duck the draft, I think. 

The Chairman. You mean that they took some doses 

The Witness. They just don't have the habit, that is all. 

Mr. MosER. You mean that they just take enough in order to get in 
here to get out of the draft ? 

The Witness. That is right ; yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Well, of course, that does not answer my question. 
That should be investigated, that phase of it. But my question in- 
volves the fact as to whether or not you can aid us so that your kids 
are not sent up here and somebody else's kids, so they can be kept 
from getting the dope. 

The Witness. Well, that would be a pretty hard problem for me 
to try to say just what, you know, because I really don't know. 

Mr. MosER. Would cutting off the supply be a good solution, or as 
good a solution as any ? 

The Witness. Well, I thought at one time probably if the doctors 
could have it under their control, and if a fellow who is an addict 
that he could get his medicine, it wouldn't cost him so much money, 
and he wouldn't have to go pushing it, and that would stop a lot of 
illegal drugs. 

Mr. MosER. Do a lot of the addicts push it for the purpose of getting 
money to buy their own ? 

The Witness. Yes ; to keep their habit up, quite a few of them. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think that they try to get young kids to start 
by giving it to them free ? 

The Witness. Since I have been in here, this has just popped up 
since I have been in here, about the young kids, and from what I have 
been reading in the pa]:>ers, it is just around a certain vicinity where 
this popped up, around New York and Chicago, and I think a little 
of it came out of Washington, from what I see amongst the fellows 
where they come from around here, the young boys. So far as down 
in New Orleans, I think the institution has records to show that there 
are not many young fellows that come out of there. 

Mr. MosER. That is all I want to ask. 

The Chairman. That is all. Thank you very much, John. 

Mr. Hepbron. By the way, the place where they go to get it and 
take it is called a shooting gallery. 

Mr. Moser. Yes. I have found from talking to these people that in 
some localities they do have shooting galleries and in some they don't. 

The Chairman. I understand that in Washington they do. 

Mr. Moser. In Washington they do, yes, I think there are some, 
but rarely in New York, most of it is done on the street. 

The Chairman. Good morning. In the case of all witnesses we 
we have asked them to be sworn, and I am sure that you will have no 
objection to being sworn. 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please. 

In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear that the testi- 
mony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth ? 

The Witness. I do, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME LN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 167 



TESTIMONY OF MISS 

The Chairmax. Your name is ? 

The Witness. That is right, sir. 

The Chair]\Ix\n. I understand you come from Cincinnati, Ohio; 
is that right? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. And you were a practical nurse at one time, were you 
not? 

The Witness. That is right, for many years. 

The Chairman. How old are you ? 

The Witness. Twenty-six. 

Mr. Moser. TVTiat drug did you use ? 

The Witness. Dilaudid and pantapon. 

Senator Wiley. Wliat is that ? 

Dr. IsBELL. That is a derivative of morphine, it is much more potent 
and powerful. 

Mr. MosER. How did you get started as an addict ? 

The Witness. I was suffering from rheumatoid arthritis, and I 
was having a good deal of pain, and I was out of town at the time, 
and I went to see a doctor. He gave me 40 tablets of morphine sulfate, 
I found out later on that that is what it was, and he told me to give 
them to myself hypodermically every 2 or 3 hours, if necessary, and 
that began my addiction. 

Mr. MosER. You think he gave you that by mistake ? 

The Witness. No; I don't believe he did. I was in very severe 
pain, and I had a good deal of driving to do, and it was very, very 
damp ; I was all crippled up. I could not sit behind the wheel without 
having some relief from pain. 

Mr. MosER. After you had taken the shots for awhile you realized 
you were hooked, is that right ? 

The Witness. Tliat is right, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And after that you were sick if you did not have it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. So you had to get it ? 

The Witness. That is right, and I got it. 

Mr. Moser. How did you get it? 

The Witness. Well, hrst I diminished the supply of my employer, 
who was a doctor, and I began forging prescriptions then. 

Mr. Moser. How much were you using a day ? 

The Witness. Approximately 6 grains. 

Mr. Moser. That is 6 or 8 shots, approximately? 

The Witness. Approximately, yes. 

Mr. Moser. How much did yoii pay — well, since you were getting it 
through legitimate channels it was not expensive, is that correct? 

The Witness. No, sir. Usually around a dollar or a dollar and 
a half a day. 

Mr. Moser. How did you use it ? 

The Witness. Intravenously. 

Mr. Moser. You did not take any skin shots ? 

The Witness. I did at first, and then I ended up using it 
intravenously. 

Mr. Moser. How did you happen to switch to the main line? 



168 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Well, I was here the first time October 20 to 
December 13. 

Mr. MosER. 1950? 

The Witness. 1950. 

Mr. MosER. Go ahead. 

The Witness. And I was told quite often about intravenous in- 
jections, so when I went home, then I started to use intravenous 
injections at that time. 

Mr. MosER. In other words, you learned it here ? 

The Witness. That is right, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Have you learned a great deal about drugs here? 

The Witness. Well, If I wanted to I could have, but I don't 
care to know any more than I know, thank you. 

Mr. MosER. This is your second time here within a year ? 

The W^iTNEss. Yes, sir ; it is. 

Mr. MosBR. Would you like to tell us the effect that it has had on 
you, your being here? 

The Witness. In what way do you mean ? 

Mr. MosER. Well, your own reaction to the treatment, and so forth. 

The Witness. Well, I think the treatment is really excellent, 
and they certainly give you a chance to rehabilitate yourself to ordi- 
nary living. I mean, I don't feel that I am being punished one iota. 
I feel very free, and I am getting a good deal for being a prisoner, 
really. 

Mr. Moser. Do you feel that you are being strengthened psycho- 
logically ? 

The Witness. Yes; definitely. I am getting psychiatric help, 
and it has helped me immensely, and I feel that I am doing fine. I 
only ho])e tliat the medical authorities feel so, too. 

Mr. MosER. Would you like to describe the withdrawal symptoms 
you have experienced? 

The Witness. Yes; I will be glad to. First, it left me with a 
feeling of mental depression. I just felt that life wasn't worth any- 
thing. Then you proceed to get a terrific drawing in the extremities. 

Mr. MosER. Do you mean tight muscles? 

The Witness. Yes ; and a terrific pulsing sensation, and a crawl- 
ing sensation from one end of the spine to the other, vomiting, nausea, 
sneezing, and it is pretty awful all around. 

Mr. MosER. And yawning? 

The Witness. Yawning. 

Mr. MosER. And perspiring? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Is it painful? 

The Witness. It is very painful. The drawing sensation is very 
painful. 

Mr. MosER. How long does it last? 

The Witness. From about 5 to 7 days and then it tapers off. 
It is usually a good 3 weeks before you feel halfw^ay normal again. 

Mr. MosER. And then after you have gotten over it you feel just as 
normally as you did before; is that right? 

The Witness. Yes; except that you don't have any stimulant. I 
mean you feel just a bit depressed. I know I still do. I feel a bit 
depressed. After all, I have lived on stimulants for quite some time. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 169 

Mr. MosER. How long have you been in here this time ? 

The Witness. It lias been a little over 2 months, sir. 

Mr. MosER. So that you really have not gotten over the feeling of 
depression yet. 

The Witness. Xot completely. I would say three-quarters of the 
way; yes. 

Mr. MosER. We are concerned over the fact that so many youngsters 
are using drugs. Do you want to give us your ideas as to why they 
start and whether they would start if they knew what they were 
getting in for ? 

The Witness. I believe they probably start strictly for the expe- 
rience of it. Well, it is a new experience to them and they get a kick 
out of it, more or less. They want something new and different, and 
it depends a lot, I believe, on the crowd that they associate with. But 
if they knew what they were getting into, they would not try it, 
believe me. 

The Chairman. Do you think it would be desirable to inform the 
public generally and the young people particularly as to just what they 
might be headed for? 

The Witness. Yes, sir; I think it would be wonderful because 
I think, if they once had the idea of what they were going to go 
thi'ough, not only in kicking the habit but in what you have to give 
up — after all, you are giving up your freedom, and you are certainly 
losing a good deal of self-respect, pride, and those things mean a lot 
to a person — then I think that they would definitely not do it; if they 
were informed of it, there would be fewer of our young addicts. 
Really, I know that if I had any idea what it was, I would have gladly 
shot the doctor, but perhaps he was not the cause, either. 

The Chairman. Did I understand you to say that you were here up 
until December? 

The Witness. Yes, sir; I had a year-and-a-day sentence. 

The Chairman. And then you came back in April ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

The Chairman. You were out about 4 months? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. How long after you left in December was it before 
you went back to it ? 

The Witness. Well, it was from December to February. 

The Chairman. That you kicked it ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And then you started in February and were on it 
again until you came back in April ? 

The WiTNESSS. That is right. 

Senator Wiley. How did you get on it? 

The Witness. Well, this last time I couldn't begin to tell you 
how I came to using drugs again, whether it was my mental outlook 
or just what, I don't know. 

Senator Wiley. Did you get it through legitimate channels 

The Witness. No, sir ; I forged again. 

Senator Wiley. Do you have any brothers and sisters ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. I am the youngest of 10. 

Senator Wiley. Now, your experience here with their youngsters, 
you have found that they apparently have gotten their stuff from 



170 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

peddlers and all this and that, and you are more than an average per- 
son, you have had this experience, and we are just parents looking for 
wisdom that will help stop the youngsters from getting this stuff. 
In other words, the youngsters of tomorrow have to run this Govern- 
ment, and it would be one terrible Government if it was run by ad- 
dicts, wouldnt' it ? 

The Witness. Yes ; it certainly would be. 

Senator Wiley, With your background and your judgment can 
you not tell us what your idea is as to how we can stop these young- 
sters from getting this stuff and any suggestion that you have got, 
let's have it. 

The Witness. Well, basically, I think a good home life is nec- 
essary. Now, I don't think that I would have ever become addicted 
if it had not been because of illness, because, well, I wouldn't know 
the people to go to. Even now I wouldn't know who to go to in order 
to get a connection. It depends on the group, I think, that they run 
with, mostly. 

Senator Wiley. Then your contact with these fellows, these young- 
sters here who have been getting it, they have not in the slightest 
degree informed you of the modus operandi of the distribution of 
these drugs? 

The Witness. No, sir. I have not the vaguest idea how to go 
out and get it. 

Senator Wiley. Yes. 

Senator Hunt. Are you a graduate nurse or a practical nurse ? 

The Witness. No; just a practical nurse. 

Senator Hunt. And you were doing what kind of work when you 
were having your rheumatoid arthritis ? 

The Witness. I was doing office work for a doctor, and I was 
out of town at the time, and I went to see this doctor and he proceeded 
to give me the medication. I had had codeine injections before when 
the pain was bad, and I was under the impression that he had given me 
codeine. 

Senator Hunt. And no other member of your family is an addict ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Senator Hunt. I haven't anything else. 

The Chairman. That is all. 

Mr. Moser. Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming 
here. 

All right. I think that is all before lunch. 

The Chairman. Very well, let us be back as near 1 : 30 as we can. 

( Wliereupon, at 12 : 30 p. m., an adjournment was taken until 1 : 30 
p. m. of the same day.) 

afternoon session 

The Chairman. All right. The committee will be in order. 

Mr. MosER. Our first witness will be . 

I think you will find that he is one of the most interesting of all the 
witnesses we are to hear. 

The Chairman. Good afternoon, Joe. We are asking all witnesses 
to be sworn. You don't mind that, do you ? 

The Witness. No. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 171 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please- 
In the presence of Almighty God do you swear that the testimony 

that you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 

but the truth ? 
The Witness. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MR. , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. Where are you from? 

The Witness. New York City. 

The Chairman. Hoav old are you ? 

The Witness. Seventeen. 

The Chairman. How long have you been here? 

The Witness. How long have I been here? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

The Witness. I have been here 4 weeks today. 

The Chairman. Four weeks today? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. What family do you have ? 

The Witness. My mother and father. 

The Chairman. And you lived with them up until the time you 
came here ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Mr. Moser will now ask you some questions. 

Mr. Moser. Shall we wait until Senator Wiley arrives? 

Senator Hunt. How do you feel, Joe ? 

The Witness. I feel good. 

The Chairman. This is Senator Hunt, Joe. 

The Witness. Hello. 

Senator Hunt. Did it bother you much when you were here a few 
days and you started to get off? 

The Witness. Yes, it did. 

Senator Hunt. How long had you been on narcotics? 

The Witness. Two and a half years. 

Senator Hunt. You are Portuguese, are you ? 

The Witness. No, sir; Spanish, Puerto Rican. 

Senator Hunt. Yes. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Joe, this is Senator Wiley. Joseph is from New 
York, Senator Wiley. 

Senator Wilet. How are you, lad ? 

The Witness. All right. 

Mr. Moser. He is from the Bronx. 

Joe, where did you go to school ? 

The Witness. Manhattan High School of Aviation Trades. 

Mr. Moser. Did you finish schooling? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Wliy did you leave? 

The Witness. I left because of drugs. 

Mr. Moser. Because of what kind of a drug? 

The Witness. Heroin. 

Mr. Moser. You used reefers before that ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 



172 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. You did not leave on account of reefers ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Just heroin. 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Did you start with marijuana? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Why did you use reefers ? 

The Witness. For the fun of it. 

Mr. Moser. Because the kids were doing the same thing? 

The Witness. Yes, because the other kids were doing it. 

Mr. Moser. How old were you when you started using reefers? 

The Witness. About 13 or 14. 

Mr. Moser. Were there many children in the same school using it? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr, Moser. But the children in your neighborhood were? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. What were they? 



Mr. Moser. Do you mean what col 



or 



Senator Wiley. No, you called them "sleepers,"' was it? 

Mr. Moser. No, reefers, marijuana cigarettes. 

Senator Wiley. Oh, all right. 

Mr. Moser. How many children of your age, roughly, did you know 
who were using marijuana? 

The Witness. Quite a few, 50 or a hundred. 

Mr. Moser. Fifty or a hundred ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. They were in your neighborhood? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. The smoking was not so much with the kids in school 
as it was with the neighborhood kids; is that it? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Did you usually use marijuana on your own or in 
groups or what? 

The Witness. In groups. 

Mr. Moser. You mean at parties? 

The Witness. Yes ; at parties. 

Mr. Moser. Whenever you were having fun ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Do you feel that marijuana was the starting point for 
heroin ? 

The Witness. It is. 

Mr. Moser. And that is the thing that started you ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How did you happen to get started on heroin? 

The Witness. A fellow offered it to me. 

Mr. Moser. A friend of yours ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. He just offered to give it to you? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. He was not a peddler? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Just an addict ? 

The Witness. He wanted me to try it out. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 173 

Mr. MosER. Did you start by snorting ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. How long did you snort, sniffing and snorting are the 
same, incidentally ? 

The Witness. About 2 years. 

Mr. MosER. You sniffed for about 2 years? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Then how did you happen to try the needle ? 

The Witness. I just tried it one day. 

Mr. Moser. You told me you didn't like it at first. 

The Witness. I tried it before, but I kept on snorting, and then I 
tried it and got hooked to the needle, too, 

Mr. Moser. You were hooked on the snorting, too ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. When you were snorting how many shots a day did 
you take ? 

The Witness. When I was snorting? 

Mr. Moser. Yes. 

The Witness. Or when I was 

Mr. Moser. AVlien you were snorting, how many times a day did 
you do it ? 

The Witness. I used to do it as many times as I had capsules for. 
I used, if I had 25 capsules, I would do it 25 times. 

Mr. Moser. You did it 25 times a day ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How much did that cost you ? 

The Witness. A package cost me $8. 

Mr. Moser. And there were 25 in a package? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You spent about $8 a day while you were snorting? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you find when you were a snorter that you wanted 
more ? 

The Witness. Yes. The more I had the more I wanted. 

Mr. MosER. You kept on increasing it ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Now, when you switched over to the needle, how long 
did you use the needle before you came here ? 

The Witness. About 6 months. 

Mr. Moser. About 6 months? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And did you find that you kept increasing it there, 
too? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. About how much a day, the same ? 

The Witness. The same. 

Mr. Moser. About 25 shots a day ? 

The Witness. No ; not 25 shots a day. 

Mr. Moser. How many, about six or seven ? 

The Witness. Six or seven shots, it amounted to 25 capsules. 

Mr. Moser. And that would be about $8 a day ? 

The Witness. Yes. 



174 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. Was that what you were spending, or more than that ? 

The Witness. I used to spend sometimes more than that. 

Mr. MosER. But in any case you would spend as much as you had, 
is that it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. The more money you had the more you took ? 

The Witness. Yes, the more I spent. 

Mr. Moser. If you didn't have so much money you took less? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. There was no limit to the amount you would use, it 
would j ust depend on how much you could buy ? 

The Witness. If I had $100 I would spend that. 

Mr. MosER. Did you leave school so that you could get the money? 

The Witness. I left school and started working. 

Mr. MosER. For the purpose of getting money to buy drugs with ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. It was on account of drugs that you left school ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What kind of work did you do ? 

The Witness. I was a clerk. I done photograph work. 

Mr. MosER. Yes. 

The Witness. That was all. 

Mr. Moser. You lived at home with your mother ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And you had room and board at home ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. So that the only money you spent was what you spent 
on drugs ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. All that you earned you spent for drugs? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How long were you on heroin before your mother found 
it out? 

The Witness. About almost the full time. 

Mr. MosER. Two and a half years? 

The Witness. Two and a half years. 

Mr. Moser. How did she find out? 

The Witness. I told her. 

Mr. Moser. Had she been suspicious before that ? 

The Witness. Yes ; she was getting suspicious. 

Mr. Moser. What caused her to be suspicious ? 

The Witness. The way I acted. 

Mr. Moser. How was that? 

The Witness. Moody and sick. Wlien I didn't have it I wasn't nice 
around the house. I was always dopey around the house, falling all 
over the place. 

Mr. Moser. And you were not going out with other children and 
doing the things that you should do ? 

The Witness. No; I stayed home. 

Senator Wiley. What is his age? 

Mr. Moser. Seventeen. How many children are there that you 
know that used heroin ? 

The Witness. Ten or fifteen of them. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 175 

Mr. MosER. Was it hard to get? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. INIosER. How did you get it? 

The Witness. I used to go downtown and buy it. 

Senator Wiley. What? 

^Ir. MosER. He says he used to go downtown to buy it. 

Where was that, Joe. at one hundred and third Street? 

The Witness. Yes, in that vicinity. 

Mr. MosER. From One hundred and third to One hundred and 
sixteenth Street ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. That is downtown for people in the Bronx. 

Senator Wiley. I see. 

Mr. Moser. Did you buy it on the street? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. From peddlers? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How would you know a peddler ? 

The Witness. Well, you just knew them. Most of the time they 
would come up and ask you. 

The Chairman. How did they know you ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. How did they know you ? 

The Witness. Well, I used to go down there so many times a day. 

The Chairman. When you first started how did you catch on as to 
who was a peddler? 

The Witness. When I first started they used to take me down there. 

Mr. Moser. Your friends? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; one of my friends. 

Mr. MosER. He would take you down and introduce you to the 
peddlers ? 

The Witness. Yes. And when this peddler didn't have it, he would 
show me another fellow. 

Mr. MosER. When one peddler did not have it he would show you 
another, that is, when he was out of it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Would he be on the street ? 

The Witness. Yes, right on the street. 

Mr. MosER. Did he hand it to you on the street ? 

The Witness. On the street, or maybe in a hall, he would take you in 
a hall and hand it to you. 

Mr. MosER. So that they would not be seen doing it? 

Tlie Witness. Yes, but usually they would hand it to you right out 
on the street. 

Mr. Moser. You told me that you always bought a package. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You never bought individual capsules ? 

The Witness. Unless I could not get the money for a full package. 

Mr. Moser. But you would sometimes buy less ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You usually bought a package? 

The Witness. I usually bought a package. 



176 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. If you didn't have enough money did you get other 
children to share it with you? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. How big is a package ? 

The Witness. Fifteen capsules. It is a little brown manila bag, 
about this big and that wide, and that much of it is full from the bot- 
tom with capsules [indicating]. The capsules are that small 
[indicating]. 

Mr. Moser. You would take it out of the capsules and make a shot, 
that is, you would pour the powder out, dissolve it in water, heat it 
up, and apply it with a needle ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Do you think that the bag would be as thick as 
this pencil ? 

The Witness. The bag of what ? 

Senator Wiley. Well, the bag, do you think it would be as thick as 
this pencil? 

The Witness. Oh, all the capsules were grouped together, and they 
would be just about as much as this [indicating], and the bag would 
be about this big, or sometimes they would give it to you wrapped in 
cellophane. 

Senator Wiley. And you would hand them the money ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Were both boys and girls using heroin, that you knew? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. But they were mostly boys ? 

The Witness. Mostly boys. 

Mr. Moser. Were they about your age or older? 

The Witness. You know, younger than me, older than me, and my 
age. 

Mr. Moser. Were they mostly Puerto Ricans? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Wliat were they? 

The Witness. Just Jewish fellows, Italian fellows, Irish fellows. 

Mr. Moser. All kinds of people? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Were many of them colored ? 

The Witness. There were a lot that were colored. I did not stay 
with them, though. 

Mr. Moser. You did not associate with the colored people? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Do you know of any children who have ever been 
killed by overdoses? 

The Witness. Yes ; two or three of them. 

Mr. Moser. Just from not knowing how much they were taking? 

The Witness. No. Somtimes they would give them poison in the 
capsules. They would take the shot and die right there. One of 
them died from an overdose. 

Mr. MosER. Those are called "hot shots" ? 

The Witness. Yes "hot shots." 

Mr. Moser. A "hot shot" is a capsule that contains poison, cyanide 
or something? 

The Witness. Yes, anything. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 177 

Mr. MosER. Instead of the dope? 
The Witness. Yes. 

Mr, MosER. Why were those given to the children ? 
The Witness. Well, maybe the peddler was real greedy for money 
and he didn't have no stuff, so he sold them that. 

Mr. MosEK. He sold them poison because he did not have dope to 
sell them? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did thev ever give tliem "hot shots'* purposely in order 
to kill them? 

The Witness. I don't know. 

Mr. Moser. They never gave them the "hot shots" because they had 
squealed ? 

The Witness. I don't know. 

Mr. Moser. But vou do know two children who died from "hot 
shots"? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever know of any children who died from an 
■overdose of heroin ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Just from taking too much ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. When you heard about people being killed, children 
being killed by "hot shots," did that frighten you or any of your 
friends ? 

The Witness. Yes ; it got me scared a little. 

Mr. Moser. What did you do about it? 

The Witness. When I bought the stulF I tasted it ; I used to test it. 

Mr. Moser. You tested it? 

The Witness. That is right, 

Mr. Moser. Well, how could you tell whether it was good or bad? 

The Witness. You tasted it, and if it tasted real sour, that was it. 

Mr, Moser. That was good ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. If it tasted sweet it might be poisonous? 

.The Witness. Yes ; or it could be sugar or powder. 

Senator Wiley. Did you ever get fooled ? Did he ever sell you poor 
stuff for your money ? 

The Witness, Yes, 

Senator Wiley. Fake stuff? 

The Witness, Yes. 

Senator Wiley. What did you do then, go back and tell him that 
you wanted some good stuff for it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. What did he say ? 

The Witness. Well, usually you would not be able to find the fellow, 

Mr. Moser. After he got his money he disappeared ? 

The Witness. Yes; he disappeared. You couldn't see him any 
more. 

Mr. Moser. He was just gypping the kids? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever use heroin in groups, in parties, or was 
it mostly alone ? 



178 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Mostly alone. I have used it in groups. 

Mr. MosER. Large groups? 

The Witness. Yes ; four or five. 

Mr. MosER. Just getting together to do it for the fun of it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Was that the usual practice with many of them, 
to liave parties and get-togethers? 

The Witness. Just once in a while, you know. Everybody is alone 
when they use it, mostly. 

Mr. MosER. What is the largest quantity you ever bought at once ? 

The Witness. Well, I bought a half ounce. 

Mr. Moser. a half ounce? 

The Witness. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Moser. How much would that cost ? 

The Witness. $80 or $90. 

Mr. Moser. When you got a half ounce, what did you do with it; 
sell it or give it away « 

The Witness. No ; I kept it for myself. 

Mr. Moser. But sometimes you would share it with a kid who was 
sick; would you not? 

The Witness. Yes, if he told me he was sick, and I knew he was 
using it. 

Mr. Moser. And he did not have the money ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Would they pay you for it? 

The Witness. If they came up to me it would be because they had 
no money and they would ask me for it. 

Mr. Moser. But you did share it with others ? 

The Witness. Once in a while. 

Mr. Moser. Did anybody ever give you any when you did not have 
money ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. But when you were working you were using all of your 
money for drugs ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you have any trouble keeping a job ? 

The Witness. Yes, when I used to get sick, when I couldn't get the 
stuff. I had the money and still couldn't get it. Maybe they ran 
out ; then I would get sick and I could not go to work. 

Mr. Moser. You had to stay home ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Wliile you were getting it on the job, could you do your 
work all right ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Sometimes you stayed home because you were sick, and 
sometimes because you were busy getting the drug ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. And the boss did not like that ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did he let you go ? 

The Witness. No ; he didn't let me go. I let myself go. 

Mr. Moser. You quit? 

The Witness. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 179 

Senator Wiley. How much money did you make? 

The Witness. $45 or $50 a week. 

Mr. MosER. Working? 

The W^iTNEss. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Sometimes you would need more than that ? 

The Witness. Most of the time I did. 

Mr. ]\IosER. How did you get that ? 

The Witness. I used to hustle. 

Mr. ]\IosER. Hustle? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And "to hustle" means what ? 

The Witness. Just getting the money together. 

Mr. ]\IosER. I see. Some people think that hustling means to get 
girls for men. You did not do that ; did you ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. MosER. You told me yesterday that you sometimes would steal 
from your mother. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. That you would steal things around the housp 

The Witness. Anything. 

Mr. MosER. And that you would sell them. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. I suppose that made your mother suspicious, too? 

The Witness. Yes. That is what brought it about. 

Mr. MosER. She caught you stealing things? 

The Witness. She didn't catch me. She saw it was missing, and 
I was the oldest in the house, and she got suspicious and would ask 
me about it. 

Mr. MosER. Do you have any brothers and sisters ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How many? 

The Witness. Two brothers and one sister. 

Mr. MosER. Younger than you ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Do any of them use drugs at all? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Now, you knew a lot of other children using narcotics 
who were not working ; didn't you ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What did they do in order to get money? 

The Witness. They used to rob it. 

Mr. MosER. Were there any hold-ups? 

The Witness. I don't know if they pulled off any hold-ups. They 
used to rob it. They would get it together. 

Mr. MosER. Thev would break in people's houses ? 

The Witness. Yes ; they would break in people's houses. 

Mr. Moser. Did they do any shoplifting ? 

The Witness. I don't know about that. I know that they used to 
burglarize. 

Mr. Moser. Houses? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And they would sell what they stole ? 

The Witness. Yes. 



180 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. Did they find money in the house or property? 

The Witness. Money, suits, typewriters, anything vahiable they 
would take. 

Mr. MosER. And they would sell it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Wlio would they sell it to ? 

The Witness. They would take it to a pawnshop. 

Mr. MosER. And just sell it. 

The Witness. No; they would just pawn it. 

Mr. Moser. And then they would take the money and use it for 
drugs ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever notice any peddlers giving it to children 
for the i^urpose of making them take it later on ? 

The Witness. No; I never did. 

Mr. Moser. You never heard of them giving it free to anybody in 
order to make them a customer? 

The Witness. Once in a while I heard of cases. 

Mr. Moser. But you never knew of any ? 

The Witness. I did not know any. 

Mr. Moser. Now, if you had money you would buy it ; wouldn't you ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. But if you had known that you were going to get stuck 
by this drug, or hooked, would you have started on it? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. When you started, you had no idea that you were not 
going to get hooked ? 

The Witness. I didn't even know what it was. 

Mr. Moser. It was something that people were doing for the fun 
of it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Who got you into it ? 

The Witness. A friend of mine. 

Senator Wiley. Was he older or younger than you ? 

The Witness. He was older than me, a lot older. 

Senator Wiley. Wliat did he tell you ? 

The Witness. He told me that if I wanted to ti-y it out, seeing I 
didn't know what it was, I thought it wouldn't do nothing to me ; so 
I tried it out, and I fell down. 

Senator Wiley. Wliat happened to him ? 

The Witness. I don't know. 

Mr. Moser. Are many of your friends in institutions like this? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You are here voluntarily — aren't you? — as I remem- 
ber it. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Your mother sent you here? 

The Witness. They sent me down from the court. 

Mr. Moser. Were you arrested for something ? 

The Witness. I was not arrested. 

Mr. Moser. It was the juvenile court? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. How did you get to the court ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 181 

The Witness. I was on probation. 

Mr. MosER. I see. You had previously been in jail for something? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What was that for ? 

The Witness. Burglarizing. 

Mr. MosER. Burglarizing? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You got in with some of the parties that burglarized 
places ? 

The Witness. Yes, 

Mr. MosER. Would you have done any of these things if you had 
not needed the money for the drugs? 

The Witness. That was the only reason. My mother gave me 
enough money. 

Mr. MosER. You mean for ordinary things? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think, if your mother had kept a more careful 
watch on you, that you could not have gotten away with it? 

The Witness. What do you mean ? 

Mr. Moser. Well, I mean, if she had known what you were doing 
more of the time 

The Witness. My mother used to keep careful watch on me, but I 
would always sneak away. 

Mr. MosER. Did she work? 

The Witness. Yes ; she worked. 

Mr. MosER. She worked during the day? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You did most of this during the daytime? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Does anyone else wish to ask any questions? 

Well, Joe, you liave been very helpful, and we want to thank you for 
it. We hope^hat what you have told us will help us keep other kids 
from having the same experience you have had, because you are a 
nice kid ; you have got good sense, and you can earn a living and do 
a good job. You got hooked by this thing, and if you never go back 
to it you will be all right. 

Senator Wiley. Were you born here ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. You were born in America ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Have you talked over things with your other asso- 
ciates here, young felloM^s, who got hooked just the way you did? 

Tlie Witness. The same way, the majority of them. 

Senator Wiley. Did you ever know any of the peddlers personally? 

The Witness. No ; not up in the Bronx. 

Mr. Moser. You did not know their names ? 

The Witness. Oh, I knew their names. 

The Chairman. Did you ever go to any other city to get it? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you think it would be a good thing to let the 
boys and girls know about how serious and how- bad it is and what 
the effects are ? 

The Witness. Yes. 



182 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Do you think it would do any good ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Senator Hunt. Joe, when youngsters like yourself are addicted, do 
they feel that they would like for other young people to be addicts 
also? 

The Witness. No. 

Senator Hunt. You would only give part of your heroin or codeine, 
whichever you were using — you would only give it away to some of 
the other boys who were sick ? 

The Witness. When I knew they were using it and were sick. 

Senator Hunt. But you would not give it to some boy who was not 
using it ? 

The Witness. I would not go around offering it ; no, sir. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Joe. 

Mr. MosER. Thanks very much, Joe. 

Our next witness will be . 

The Chairman. Good afternoon. We have been asking all the 
witnesses to be sworn, and I am sure you don't mind ; do you ? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please. 

In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear that the testi- 
mony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth ? 

The Witness. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MISS , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. Audrey, will you give your full name to us ? 

The Witness. ., 

The Chairman. And where do you live — in what city ? 

The Witness. New York. 

The Chairman. How old are you ? 

The Witness. Twenty. 

The Chairman. Whom did you live with in New York ? 

The Witness. My mother. 

The Chairman. Do you have any brothers and sisters ? 

The Witness. One brother. 

The Chairman. How long have you been here ? 

The Witness. How long have I been here ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

The Witness. Since the 3d of March. 

The Chairman. The 3d of March. 

Mr. Moser, will you take up the questioning, please ? 

Mr. Moser. Yes. 

You come from Brooklyn ; don't you ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. What school did you attend ? 

The Witness. Brooklyn High School for Home Making. 

Mr. Moser. Did you finish your schooling ? 

The Witness. No, I had 1 year to go before I would have finished. 

Mr. Moser. You did not leave on account of drugs ; did you ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. How long have you been addicted to heroin ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 183 

The Witness. About 2 years. 

Mr. MosER. Did you start in with reefers ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir . 

Mr. Moser. And then did you switch to heroin because you thought 
it would be better ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. JSIoser. When did you first start smokincr reefers ? 

The Witness. Oh, when I was in high school. 

Mr. Moser. About how old were you, 16 ? 

The Witness. Yes, 

Mr. Moser. A lot of other kids were doing it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. IVIosER. Did you find that a lot of the other children switched 
to heroin, too? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Who furnished you with those reefers or cigarettes ? 
They are marijuana; aren't they? 

Mr. Moser. Yes. 

The Witness. People around the school selling them. 

Senator Wiley. They were selling them ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How much are they, 50 cents apiece ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. What kind of people are selling them, people from the 
outside? 

The Witness. Y"es. 

Mr. Moser. Not other children ? 

The Witness. No, but then there were some kids who were selling 
them, you know, in the school. 

Mr. Moser. They were selling them for fellows who had given them 
to them to sell in order to make money? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Are they done up in a cigarette package ? 

The Witness. They are in Tip-Top cigarette papers, hand-rolled. 

Mr. Moser. Now, how much heroin were you using when you be- 
came hooked ? You told me that you were using "speed balls" ? 

The Witness. Yes. Well, I couldn't tell you exactly the amount, 
but approximately I would take five or six shots a day. 

Mr. Moser. Five or six, and each one was a "speed ball" ? 

The AVitness. Y"es. 

Mr. Moser. And in the "speed ball" you had $2 worth of heroin and 
$3 worth of cocaine ; is that right ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. ]\IosER. So it was $5 a shot ? 

The Witness. Yes. And sometimes we would have two in one, "two 
girls and a boy." In other words, two capsules of cocaine and one 
•capsule of heroin. They call that "two girls and a boy." 

Mr. Moser. You paid $5 for a shot, then, approximately ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And you would have five or six a day ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. So you would spend from $25 to $30 a day on it? 

The Witness. Yes. 



184 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. How did yon get the money for that ? 

The Witness. "Boosting" and cashing and forging. Cashing Gov- 
ernment checks and forging endorsement of Government checks. 

Senator Wiley. Where did yon get the checks? 

The Witness. Off different fellows, and they would get them from 
mail boxes. 

Mr. MosER. The boys would get them from the mail boxes? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Then they would give them to you to cash ? 

The Witness. Yes, with interest. 

Mr. MosER. With interest. Do you mean that they would share it? 

The Witness. You know, you split it. 

Mr. MosER. You would each take half? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Explain why they gave them to you to cash instead of 
doing it themselves. 

The Witness. Because if it was a woman's check, a man could not 
very well get by on cashing a check with a woman's name on it. 

Mr. MosER. So they would give it to you and you would split with 
them. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. They would get them out of the mail boxes, you 
say 'i 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. It is a very common practice, Senator. 

Senator Wiley. I see. 

Mr. MosER. Then when you boosted merchandise from stores, where 
did you sell that? 

The Witness. Mostly to dealers in dope. 

Mr. MosER. Sellers in dope? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You would give it to them for dope, would you ? 

The Witness. Sometimes, and then again I would give it to them, 
like if I already had money, I would give it to them, and they would 
give me money. 

Mr. MosER. And they would sell it, but you don't know what they 
did with it? 

The Witness. No, I don't. 

Mr. MosER. Sometimes they would give you dope for it, and some- 
times they would give you money for it? 

The Witness. Yes. Of course, I would assume that if it was some- 
thing nice they would keep it themselves, you know. 

Mr. MosER. Yes. Now, did you work with other children in get- 
ting money ; did you work together on it in groups ? 

The Witness. In getting money? 

Mr. MosER. Yes ; or did you do it sort of on your own ? 

The Witness. Sort of my own. 

Mr. MosER. You do know of other people who were doing it, other 
children who were needing money, who were boosting and cashing 
checks ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What else did they do to get money ? 

The Witness. Well, the girls were prostitutes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 185 

Mr. MosER. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Prostitution, you say? 

The Witness. Yes, and they would boost, and it was just about any- 
thing they w^ould do to get some money. 

Mr. ]M(XSER. Did some of the boys do robberies of property ? 

The Witness. Well, you know, they probably have done that, to get 
the money, but I didn't hang out with no fellows anyway. 

Mr. MosER. Now, you feel that it was a pretty bad thing for you to 
start on heroin ; don\ you ? 

The Witness. Yes, I do. 

Mr. MosEK. Would you have started it if you had known how it 
would end up? 

The Witness. No ; I would not. 

Mr. MosER. Did you realize that you would be hooked when you 
started ? 

The Witness. No, because people are "chippy" with it. They do 
it now and then, not always, and they stop themselves. I had intended 
to try it like that, too. 

Mr. MosER. Yes. 

The Witness. But then as time went on I kept on. 

Mr. MosER. Did you find that most of the kids who were "chippy- 
ing" w^ould eventually end up as addicts? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr, MosER. Do they always? 

The Witness. I have seen kids "chippj^" on it, you know, like a 
dealer — he snorts a little, but that is all. So far as going in the 
arm or anything like that, he doesn't do it every day like a regular 
junkie would do it — just now and then; like when he gets a new 
load of stuff, he would try some himself. 

Mr. MosER. In order to test it ? 

The Witness. Yes; or most of the time a dealer lets somebody else 
test it. Most people dealing in dope don't use it themselves. 

Mr. MosER. Did you find dealers who would give it to children in 
order to start them in ? 

The Witness. None of the dealers that I know. They were mostly 
older men. 

The Chairman. Would they trust you for it if you did not have 
the money? 

The Witness. Well, you had to be pretty tight with them for them 
to trust you. 

Mr. MosER. And by being tight with them, you mean that you had 
to be close friends? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Yes. 

The Witness. And then sometimes it would be hard, you know. 

Mr. MosER. What quantity did you usually buy ? 

The Witness. Oh, eights and sixteens. 

Mr. MosER. Eights and sixteens. You mean eight and sixteen cap- 
sules at a time? 

The Witness. No. An eighth of an ounce and a sixteenth of an 
ounce. 

Mr. MosER. Yes. And did the dealers that you knew sell it in cap- 
sules, or in loose form ? 



186 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Well, he sold it in capsules and, you know, large 
quantities. 

Mr. MoSER. Was it hard to find dealers ? 

The Witness. No ; not when I came, it was not ? It was very easy. 

Mr. MosER. They were just around anywhere? 

The Witness. Mostly you would find them around poolrooms, where 
you would see a high school, a candy store, you know, you would find 
quite a few. 

Mr. MosER. They would be hanging around high schools ? 

The Witness. _Yes, but you probably wouldn't know them from 
anybody else. 

Mr. MosER. But you would? 

The Witness. Yes; another junkie always knows another one. 

The Chairman. How would you find out about them, the first 
time, so that you would know that one was a distributor? 

The Witness. Well, you know, you look around at them, you look 
at everybody, and maybe you wouldn't know right away, but you 
take the pick of the one that you want to hit to ask, and you just 
come out and ask them. You take them by themselves and ask them. 
He would probably look around at you, and he would not give it to 
you right then, but he would take your money and say, "I will bring 
it back to you." 

Most of the time he would have it himself, but he would take your 
money, go outside and come back, making out that he copped it from 
somebody else. 

Mr. MosER. And by outside you mean outside the poolroom? 

The Witness. Or outside the candy store — wherever he may he at, 
you know. 

Mr. Moser. You could identify them because they would be older 
men hanging around; is that it? 

The Witness. Yes. But again there are some young fellows 
around. You would always know them. 

Mr. Moser. They were sort of hanging around, I suppose. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You know a lot of kids who have become addicts, don't 
you — friends of yours? 

The Witness. Who have become addicted ? 

Mr. Moser. Yes. 

The Witness. None of the kids I went to school with, except one. 

Mr. Moser. Can you tell us what you think is the best way of keep- 
ing kids from starting? 

The Witness. Well, while mostly in the high schools, if the teachers 
would tell them. But they should not tell them not to use it, because 
if you tell them not to do it, that is what they will do. But if they 
just tell them about the things that would happen to them, wherein 
they did use it, then they might not start. 

Mr. Moser. About getting hooked, and so forth ? 

The Witness. Yes ; like pictures and stuff, and books to read on it. 
If they ever got hooked on it, the books should tell them what would 
happen, and I think that would stop them from using it. 

Mr. Moser. Yes. 

The Witness. If you were to tell them, "Don't do that," then that is 
the very thing they will do. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 187 

Mr. MosER. If you tell them the facts about what it does to you, 
then you think it would stop them ? 

The Witness. I do. 

Mr. MosER. Are there any more questions of Audrey ? 

Senator Wiley. Just tell us what it has done to you; just tell us. 

The Witness. Well, it has made me lose interest in life itself ; you 
know, when you are on that stuff you don't care what comes or goes or 
who you hurt or whatever you do. You just think about yourself. 

Senator Wiley. Were you brought up in a Christian home? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Did you yourself become a prostitute in order to 
get money for drugs? 

The Witness. No. 

Senator Wiley. You never did that? 

The Witness. No. 

Senator Wiley. But you did other things to get money ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. How long have you been here now ? 

The Witness. About 3 months, since the 3d of March. 

Senator Wiley. What would you say as to how to get rid of the 
peddlers? Do you have any idea about that? 

The Witness. Well, there are so many, I don't think you will ever 
get rid of them. 

Senator Wiley. There are so many of them ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. I do not have any more questions. 

Mr. MosER. They are all over the place? 

The Witness. They are all over the place. If you are a junkie, you 
can always find it, even in the smallest towns, wherever you go. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever go outside Brooklyn to find it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You traveled around? 

The Witness. I traveled. 

Mr. Moser. To small towns ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And you would find peddlers in small towns? 

The Witness. You would find it every place you go. 

Mr. Moser. What towns ? 

The Witness. Oh, have you ever been in Westmoreland, right out- 
side of California, a small town. 

Mr. ]\IosER. You went to California ? 

The Witness. Yes ; out near the coast? 

Mr. Moser. Did you go to San Francisco ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you find peddlers there ? 

The Witness. Oh, God, they were all over California, especially 
in L. A. 

Senator Wiley. Especially where ? 

The Witness. L. A. 

Mr. Moser, She means Los Angeles, Calif. 

The Chairman. How about Brooklyn, N. Y.? How about Phila- 
delphia ? 

The Witness. I never went to Philadelphia. 



188 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Did you go to Washington? 

The Witness. Yes ; I'have been to Washington. 

The Chairman. Were there peddlers there ? 

The Witness. Quite a few. And Chicago, I have been there. And 
I think it was Petersburg, Va. I was there. It is not too much, but 
it can be found. 

Mr. MosER. How did you happen to travel around so much? 

The Witness. Well, it was with a fellow I was going with. 

Mr. MosER. Oh, you were driving ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Was he taking dope, too? Was he a junkie? 

The Witness. No. 

Senator Wiley. The fellow that you were going with ? 

The Witness. No, he is not. 

Mr. MosER. Did he help you to get it ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Did he know you were taking dope ? 

The Witness. Not until I got in this trouble. 

Mr. Moser. You concealed it from him ? 

The Witness. Yes. I also concealed it from my mother. 

Mr. Moser. All right. 

Senator Hunt. Audrey, just a minute before you go. These ped- 
dlers that there are so many of, would you find as many colored 
peddlers as you do white peddlers? Were they mostly colored or 
white ? 

The Witness. Most of them were colored, and a lot of Spanish 
people. 

Mr. Moser. Puerto Ricans ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Hunt. How did you happen to come here? What specific 
act was it that causes you to be here ? 

The Witness. Forgery. 

Mr. Moser. Forgery? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Of Government checks? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Hunt. Where was that, in New York? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Hunt. That is all. Thank you. 

Mr. Moser. Thank you very much. We appreciate your help. 

Tell — to come in, will you ? 

The Witness. All right. 

The Chairman. Good afternoon, Bernice. We are asking all wit- 
nesses to be sworn. I don't suppose you would mind. 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. Very well. Will you raise your right hand. In the 
presence of the Almighty God do you swear that the testimony you 
shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth? 

The Witness. I do. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 189 

TESTIMONY OF MISS , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. Will you state your full name, please. 

The Witness. . 

The Chairman. Where are you from ? 

The Witness. New York ; the Bronx. 

The Chairman. In the Bronx? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. How old are you, Bernice? 

The Witness. Nineteen. I will be 20 in September. 

The Chairman. How long have you been here ? 

Tlie Witness. About 4 weeks. 

The Chairman. Four weeks? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. How did you come to come down here? From the 
court ? 

The Witness. From the court. 

The Chairman. And what were you in court for ? 

The Witness. Mail theft. 

The Chairman. For what? 

The Witness. Mail theft. 

Mr. MosER. Government checks? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chair3ian. All right, Mr. Moser. 

Mr. Moser. Bernice, where did you go to school? 

The Witness. Junior High 60. 

Mr. Moser. In Brooklyn? 

The Witness. No ; the Bronx. 

Mr. Moser. Why did you leave? 

The Witness. I was getting married. 

Mr. Moser. How old were you ? 

The Witness. Fourteen, 

Mr. MosER. How old were you when you started using marijuana? 

The Witness. Ten. 

Mr. Moser. Ten years old? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How old were you when you started using heroin ? 

The Witness. About 14 or 15. 

Mr. MosER. Just after you were married ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Were many of the older children using marijuana at the 
time you started ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. They were mostly older children? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Many of your age at that time? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. You played around with older children, did you? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How did you happen to start with heroin ? 

The Witness. Curiosity. 

Mr. MosER. Just because the others were doing it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

85277— ol—pt. 14 13 



190 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. Quite a few of them were doing it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And when you started it, did you know that you would 
get stuck or hooked ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. MosER. You did not know about that ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Didn't they tell you that you would get hooked? 

The Witness. Well, thiey said something about it, but I didn't be- 
lieve it. 

Mr. Moser. You didn't understand what it meant, did you ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. How long had you been using it before you knew 
you were hooked ? 

The Witness. About a year. 

Mr. Moser. It took you a year to realize it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You were probably hooked before that, but you didn't 
know it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Wliy is that ? 

The Witness. Well, when you get it a long time, when you are sick 
or anything, you have it all the time, but you don't know you are 
hooked until you get sick. 

Mr. Moser. Well, when you get it regularly, then you don't get 
sick? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. And you don't know you are hooked until you feel sick, 
when you cannot get it. 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. How long did you live with your husband — do you still 
live with him ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. How long did you live with him? 

The Witness. Five months. 

Mr. ]\IosER. Just a short time. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Then you went back home? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Was he an addict ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Did he know about it? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. He never knew ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. INTosER. How about your parents, did they ever know? 

The Witness. No; not until T told them, just before I got arrested. 

Mr. Moser. Just before you were arrested ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How did you keep it secret from them ? 

The Witness. Just stayed by myself. 

Mr. Moser. And did they notice anything funny about what you 
were doing that made them suspicious ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 191 

The Witness. Excepting that I was evil and cranky all the time. 
They didn't think anything of it. 

Mr, MosER. They did not suspect it ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr, MosER, They just wondered why you were disagreeable? 

The Witness, Yes, 

Mr. Moser, You were out late nights ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Now, how much were you using? 

The Witness. An eighth of an ounce three times a day. 

Mr. MosER. An eighth of an ounce three times a day ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How much did that cost you ? 

The Witness. Seventy-five dollars. 

Mr. Moser. Seventy-five dollars a day? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. For how many years did you do that? 

The Witness. Four years. 

Mr. Moser. Four years? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How did you get that money, that $75 a day ? 

The Witness. Oh, I begged and borrowed. 

Mr. Moser. You were begging and borrowing from your family and 
relatives ? 

The Witness, Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever do any stealing ? 

The Witness. Checks. 

Mr. Moser. You were stealing Government checks ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you and the other children do that together? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Did you cash any checks for anybody else ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Wliere did you get these checks? 

The Witness. Out of the boxes. 

Mr. Moser. Wliat did you do if you got a check payable to a man? 

The Witness. I would give it to a fellow to cash it. 

Mr. Moser. You would get a fellow to do it and split with him? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr, Moser. If you got one payable to a woman, you would take it 
all yourself? 

The Witness, Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And you did do some prostitution to get money? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Quite a lot of it? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. But over the 4-year period fairly regularly ? 

Tlie Witness, Sometimes, 

Mr. Moser. Just when you get in a special jam? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And you needed money badly ; is that it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 



192 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE I 

Mr. MosER. When you first started using it, you didn't realize that 
you would get hooked? Do you think if you had known that you 
would be hooked, that it would have made any difference ? 

The Witness, Yes. 

Mr. MosER. If you had understood what hooking was ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Have you noticed any peddlers trying to get customers 
by making them addicts and giving them their dope free ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. MosER. You never saw any of that ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. But sometimes addicts would give it free to each other ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. When you first started, they gave it to you, didn't they ? 

The Witness. Yes 

Senator Wiley. Free? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. How much ? 

The Witness. Half a cap. 

Mr. Moser. These were friends of yours ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Just to get you to do it with them? 

The Witness. Yes ; they would that, an addict, like they get others 
hooked so that they can keep up their habit, because when you buy it, 
naturally, you are going to give them some to give you a fix, to hit you, 
so that way they keep up their habit. 

Mr. Moser. That is by getting you to be an addict, then they have 
somebody else that they can share with in case they get in a jam ; is 
that it?' 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. But you don't think any peddlers do it to get free custo- 
mers — I mean, that they give it away free in order to get customers? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Did you find it hard to get ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. In the Bronx, where you live, were there a lot of 
peddlers? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever go anywhere besides the Bronx to get it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Wliere ? 

The Witness. Brooklyn, Manhattan. 

Mr. Moser. There were plenty of peddlers there ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Were there any places where they actually sold it on 
the premises? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. I mean, shops, sort of ? 

The Witness. No. The only place you would see them would be on 
the street. 

Mr. Moser. Was the price the same everywhere ? 

The Witness, It is a dollar for a capsule, it is $12.50 for a sixteenth 
of an ounce, and $25 for an eighth of an ounce. 



I ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 193 

The Chairma^s'. You were using three-eighths a day ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you go to any cities besides New York ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. The price was about the same all over New York ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. How did it vary ? 

The Witness. Well, in Philadelphia and Baltimore and different 
places like that, it is $3 a capsule, and you cannot get any quantities. 

Mr. Moser. That is buying it just a cap at a time? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Were you in those places ? 

The Witness. I went to Baltimore. 

Mr. Moser. Did you find peddlers on the street selling it ? 

The Witness. There was peddlers there, but I didn't bother with it. 

Mr. Moser. "Wliere did you buy it ? 

The Witness. I did not buy it at all there. 

Mr. Moser. Did somebody give it to you ? 

The Witness. I brought it with me. 

Mr. Moser, You knew that there were peddlers there, though ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. You knew that they got about $3 a cap? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you have any trouble getting it in Philadel- 
phia and Baltimore? 

The Witness. I never bought any in Philadelphia or Baltimore. 

The Chairman. How about Washington? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. But in Baltimore you knew that they were selling 
it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Tlie Chairman. How did you know where to go? 

The Witness. I didn't go anywhere. People that you know, they 
use it, they tell you that if you want to buy it, you can buy it for $3 a 
capsule. 

The Chairman. Were there many of them using it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. How would you recognize a peddler? 

The Witness. It isn't the peddler, the majority of peddlers is drug 
addicts, too. 

Senator Wiley. What ? 

The Witness. The majority of peddlers is drug addicts, too, and you 
recognize, you know, like one drug addict recognizes another drug 
addict. 

Senator Wiley. Did you alwaj^s have money ? 

The Witness. No ; not all the time. 

Senator Wiley. Well, if you didn't have money, how would you get 
money ? 

Tlie Witness. Checks. 

Senator Wiley. You said that you did other things, did you use any 
other means to get money? 

Mr. Moser. Prostitution? 

The Witness. Prostitution now and then. 



194 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Wiley. Well, with colored folks or white folks ? 

The Witness. Different. 

Senator Wiley. Wliat? 

The Witness. All. 

Senator Wiley. And what did you collect for that ? 

The Witness. $10. 

Senator Wiley. $10. 

The Witness. Each time. 

Senator Wiley. And all that went for drugs ? 

The Witness. For drugs. 

Senator Wiley. How extensive was your prostitution ? Where did 
it take place, was it in the hotels or where? 

The Witness. In hotels, in your room. 

Senator Wiley. How many times have you sold yourself a day? 

The Witness. I didn't sell myself very often. 

Senator Wiley. You did not? 

The Witness. No. 

Senator Wiley. Only when you were in an extreme condition, is 
that right? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Senator Wiley. Was that after you were married or before? 

The Witness. After I was married. 

Senator Wiley. You said that your husband didn't know anything 
about this ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. She was married at 14 and lived with her husband for 
6 months. 

I think that is all that I want to ask Bernice. 

The Chairman. Yes; that is all, Bernice. We are very much 
obliged to you. 

Mr. Moser. We appreciate your helping us. You have been very 
nice. 

We will now get Mr. . 

The Chairman. Good afternoon. We are swearing all witnesses, 
and I suppose you have no objection. 

The Witness. No ; I don't mind. 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand, please. 

In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear that the testi- 
mony that you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth ? 

The Witness. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MR. , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. Will you give us your name, please. 

The Witness. . 

The Chairman. Wliere are you from, Harvey ? 

The Witness. Chicago, 111. 

The Chairman. Chicago? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How old are you, Harvey ? 

The Witness. Eighteen years old. 

The Chairman. Do you have any brothers and sisters? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 195 

The Witness. One sister. 

The Chairman. Wlio did you live with in Chicago ? 

The Witness. I lived with my parents. 

The Chairman, Have yon been working or going to school ? 

The Witness. I went to school and worked. 

The Chairman. And you worked ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. How long have you been working ? 

The Witness, I worked oti' and on for the last 2 years. 

Senator Wiley. Where is his home. 

The Chairjvian. Chicago. 

Mr. Moser, you may take over. 

Mr. Moser. Where did you go to school ? 

The Witness. Engiewood High School and University of Illinois. 

Mr. Moser. And w^here ? 

The Witness. University of Illinois, at the Navy Pier Branch. 

Mr. Moser. Did you graduate from high school ? 

The Witness, les. 

Mr. Moser. When did you start smoking marijuana? 

(No answer.) 

Mr. Moser. About how^ old were you ? 

The Witness. I remember that the year was 1948, the first part of 
1948, and I am 18 now. 

Mr. Moser. Then you were about 15 years old ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Were most of the kids whom you knew smoking mari- 
juana ? 

The Witness. Yes; the majority of them. 

Mr. Moser. Was it quite prevalent in the school or among your 
friends ? 

The Witness. It was friends, mostly. 

Mr. Moser. It was in your neighborhood more than at the school? 

The Witness, Yes, 

Mr. MosER. When did you start using heroin ? 

The Witness. I started using heroin in the middle of about 1949, 1 
guess, during the summer. 

Mr. Moser. What year were you in school ? 

The Witness. I was in my last year. 

Mr. Moser. In your senior year in school ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How did you happen to start on heroin ? Wliat caused 
you to start ? 

The Witness. Well, my classmates at school, although the trend to 
use dope was prevalent around my home. At the school I w^ent to 
there was a small group of addicts. 

Mr. Moser. Maybe 10 or 15 of them? 

The Witness. Maybe 10 or 15 out of the total population of the 
school. I was curious to see exactly how it was done, and I couldn't 
seem to realize with the apparatus they had, how they could inject 
something in your bloodstream, and when I watched the operation per- 
formed, I was offered some, and I refused it. Then I was offered it 
again, and I gave in, because I sniffed dope, I did not shoot it, I sniffed 



196 OKGANIZED CRIME IN IN'JMCUS'i'ATK COMMERCE 

it,, bocauso they said it was vory luu-d to <xi',t tlie habit by snifliii<^ dope, 
HO J tr-icd snilHii<j^. 

Mr. Mosi If. "^ On were, told (bat yoii could not <>;et the liabit by 
snifnn<jf, is that it? 

The, Wi'i'NKSS. Yes. 

Mi-. Moskh. Jiiii !i Ker you liad suiftVd a wliih^, then yon wanted to 
try it in t lie. main lini^, is tliat it? 

1'he WriNKSs. A llcr I sni (led a wliilc, it lost its eircct. I mean, I did 
not <j:('t the s;ini(^ teelino;, as stron*!; a fe(;lin<2; as 1 had desired. 

Mr. MosKK. Were, most of the children whom you knew that were 
addicts colored or were some of them white? 

The Witness. 'J'he major-ity were coloi-ed, but there were some white. 

Mr. MosKiJ. How much did you spend a day for it ? 

The WiTNKSs. Well, I would say on an avera«^-e of about $20. 

Mr. MosKK. $'20, or a little more than that,, maybe? 

The WrPNKsa. I mean, some days moi-e, some days less, but I could 
safely say over the wliole span of 2 years, which I used it, it was 
aj)pr()xlmat cly that, it was an average of $20 a day. 

Mr. Mosi'iK.' Yes. 

The WiTNKSs. Allliou<!;h 1 did stall off just si)cndin<j^ a dollar and a 
ha 1 r a (lay, but I built it up. 

Ml-. MosKK. You kept, vvantinjj^ moi'e and more all the time? 

The WiTNKSR. Yes. 

Senator WiMov. That would inake about $7,:U)0 a year that you were 
spendinn: on it. 

The Wi'i'NKSS. T suppose so, maybe mor(^. 

Mr. MosKK. 'IVll us how you <i,ot the money for that. 

'I'he WrPNKSS. Well, mostly for what, J am doing time for now, mail 
theft. 

Mi-. MosiiR. (Jetting Oovenmient checks out of the mail ? 

The WrrNKSS. I never got (lovernment, checks out of the mail, but I 
embezzled funds from the mail. 

Mr. MoSKK. You were working in the post oflice, wei-en't you? 

The Witness. Yes, I was a substitute carrier during the Christmas 
rush. 

Mr. MosER, You mean that you would find letters that had money 
in them ? 

The WrrNESs. Yes. 

Mr. MosEK. And then you would take that? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mi-. Moseu. Did you find it hard to work wdien you wore on this 
dope ? 

The Witness. Very hard. 

Mr. MosEK. What was the effect? 

The Witness. Well, if 1 was not under the influence of drugs, and I 
Avas sick, it would ju-actically be an impossibility to work at all, and 
keep my mind on the job. If 1 was under the influence of the drug, I 
Jiad no iniliative to work, 1 was energetic but I would have no initia- 
tive to work, just always to do something else, and 1 would want to go 
for more and not work. 

Mr. MosEK. You could not keep your mind on it? 

The Witness. No. I walked oli' a (-ount.less number of jobs because 
of the habit. I only worked just unt il pay day, and 1 never kept a job 
more than that. 



ORGANIZED (IMMIO IX INTKlJSTyVTK COMMKHCE ] 97 

Mr. INIosKK. As soon as you go( Ihis money you would use i(. lor 
drug's? 

Tlio Wri'NKSS. Yes. 

Mr. MosKK. Were you liviujr at, home? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosKK. So (lie only money you i-eally needed was for (lru<i;s? 

The WrrNKSS. A'Vas for (h'ni!;s; yes. 

Mr. MosKK. Were you livin«; with your mother? 

The Witness. Mother and fathei-. 

Mr. MosKR. Did (hey think (hat you acted funny? 

The Witness. They knew that I acted fumiy. 

Ml-. MosEH. They clid know that? And did they know why? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mi-. Moseu. They did know it? 

The WiTNKSS. They knew why, hut that was only wdien my dr-u^ ad- 
diction i-eaclied a climax.. I had been ai-rested in jNovember of 1!) I*.) for 
suspicion ol' narcotics, and I was bi-ou<!;ht to the house, and they said 
that I was usinnj drufrs. Up nnt il possibly October of last year, so far 
as they knew, I was not usino; dru<ijs. If I cam(> in, lilce we say, lookinuj 
funny, J would tell them tliat I had been di'inkinjjj, but when it did 
come to their knowled<j^e that I was iisinp^ dru<»;s, they kept repeatedly 
tellinp^ me to come down for a cure, and I always refused. I never 
would come. They oiTercd to <ret me a ])rivate cure, and I still n^fused 
to come. 

Mr. MosEK. Did you evvr do any shoplifting? 

Tlie Witness. I Jiave. 

Mr. MosEH. Or |)icking pockets? 

The Witness. I have, but 1 am m)t, ov(m- a, wid(^ span 1 did not do 
much of that. 

Mr. MosEK. Did you ever do any burglaring? 

The Witness. No burglary. 1 mean, T liave stolen things from my 
home, but so far as entering someone else's ])ro[)ert.y, I never liave. 

Ml'. MosEU. When you got the drugs, t.ell us where you w(Mit for 
tlieni, in (.'hicago, on the street? 

The Witness. On the sti-eet. 

Mr. MosEi{. Mostly |)eddlers on the street? 

The Witness. Mostly jK'ddlers on the street. 

Mr. Moseu. Were there a lot of them? 

The W^iTNEss. There were (|uite a f(!W. T mean now, that is not, just 
before I came here, because the luimber was rapidly declining. 

Mr. Moskk. So it was hard to find the drug? 

The WiTNKSs. Pretty hard. 

Mr. MosKK. Were the ])eddh'j-s addicts themselves? 

The Witness. The majority of Ihem; yes. 

Mr. MosKK. You say most of them were? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosEit. Did you ever go to a. place like a room or an apartment, 
or some ])lace like that, for drugs? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosEK. And they were permanent places that wei'e used for 
til at pur-pose 1? 

The Witness. Yes. Some were just private homes, and if you hap- 
pened to use drugs, they just hai)pened to be users, too, but thcjre 
were some who rented it for that specific purpose. 



198 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Wiley. White or colored ? 

The Witness. Colored and white. I mean, there was one place I re- 
call, with white and colored running it at the same time. 

The Chairman. Would they use the stuff there at the same time? 

The Witness. Yes. They had an interracial marriage, it was a man 
and a wife. 

Mr. Moser. a white man and a colored woman, or vice versa ? 

The Witness. It was a colored man and a white woman. 

Mr. MosER. And they had been selling drugs there ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. INIosfiR. And using it themselves ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Yesterday you told me that there were some places 
where tliey sold it and they did not use it themselves. 

The Witness. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Moser. What was the difference? 

The Witness. There are some people who sell drugs from their 
homes and will not let you use drugs in their homes, but the majority 
of these people don't use drugs themselves, but there are people who 
sell drugs at their homes and will let you use drugs in their homes but 
most of the times they are addicts themselves. There seems to be a 
trend toward the nonaddicted peddlers of narcotics to get you away 
from there as fast as they possibly can. 

Senator Wiley. Let's go back to the school business. When you 
were in school, what was the attendance of the school? How many 
addicts were there — ^but, first, give me the attendance of the school. 

The Witness. I would say there was possibly 1,800 going to the 
school. 

Mr. Moser. Attendance? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How many of them were addicts ? 

The Witness. A very small number at the time I started, but before 
I left the school there was almost half. 

Mr. Moser. Half of the school ? 

The Witness. Approximately half of the school. 

Mr. Moser. And they were using heroin? 

The Witness. Heroin or marijuana. 

Senator Wiley. Wliat was the name of the school again? 

The Witness. The Englewood High School. 

Senator Wiley. Colored and white ? 

The Witness. Yes, interracial. 

Mr. Moser. AYhen you said half the school, you meant that half the 
school were using marijuana and heroin? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How many were using heroin ? 

The Witness. I couldn't hardly say, but I would say, this is when I 
left there in January 1950, I would say approximately one-third of 
the boys enrolled in the school, I could almost say, were using heroin. 

Senator Wiley. Where would they get that? 

The Witness. Wliere would they get the dope ? 

Senator Wiley. Yes. 

The Witness. Peddlers on the street. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 199 

The Chairman. How would they get the money ? First, how much 
a cap was it in Chicago ? 

The Witness. A dolhir and a half, a dollar and a quarter, and a 
dollar. It depends on whom you know. 

The Chairman. How did they get the money ? 

The Witness. Oh, numerous ways, anything that would come into 
an addict's mind would be the way of getting the money. If he could 
steal bottles off a person's back porch, or if he could pick a pocket, or 
sho})lift, or could mislead a fellow, an addict, commonly referred to 
as burning him, where he pretends he will get some dope for him, 
he takes his money and never comes back. Just anything, the first 
thing that comes into your mind. 

You can reach a point where you clraw^ no lines anywhere. You 
might run up and snatch from under a person's nose, and run with it. 

Senator Wiley. Any way to get the money ? 

The Witness. Any way. 

Senator Wiley. Who started this marijuana business ? How does 
that go ? Do they peddle the cigarettes right in the school ? 

The Witness. Well, when I left Englewood School they had a few 
peddlers, heroin addicts peddling marijuana, to keep themselves sup- 
plied with heroin. But I bought the majority of marijuana I used 
around my home, or in the immediate vicinity of my home. 

Mr. Moser. You bought from people around there ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. On the street? 

The Witness. On the street. 

Mr. Moser. How did you know a marijuana peddler when you saw 
him ? 

The Witness. There is nothing about them, I mean, there is no sig- 
nificant dress or anything that he wears, I mean, but he could usually 
be noted by a newspaper under his arm. 

Senator Wiley. Tell me this, were the girls addicted the same as 
the fellows? 

The Witness. Oh, yes. 

Senator Wiley. Were they indulging in prostitution in order to 
get the money ? 

The Witness. No lines were drawn anywhere, prostitution, shop- 
lifting, burglary, armed robbery, cashing stolen checks. 

Senator Wiley. What percentage of that school were colored folks ? 

The Witness. It is predominantly colored now, this is when I left, 
it is predominantly colored, and it might be all, or I would say close 
to about 85 percent colored now. 

Senator Wiley. And youngsters of 12, 13 and 14 were using the 
drugs ? 

The Witness. Yes. The average age of marijuana smokers, 1 
would say, would be about 13 or 14. 

Mr, MosER. Thirteen or fourteen. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley, They would become a target for the heroin ped- 
dlers? 

The Witness. Yes. You would very seldom find a person smoking 
marijuana who does just that, he keeps on, and he gets to the point 



200 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

where he does not have the same drive or feeling- that he first had, and 
it is like a stepping stone, he graduates to heroin. 

Senator Wiley. How small do the girls have to be before they are 
out indulging in prostitution, in ages, I mean? 

The Witness. Well, they appear to learn pretty fast. It is pretty 
hard to specify the age. I mean, there is no age limit. I mean, if 
somebody would buy their bodies, they would sell them. I mean, there 
is nothing to it. I mean, you hardly would find any girl who was using 
any kind of dope Avho would be out at that age, where she was unma- 
ture, or undeveloped. She is mature, otherwise she would not have 
been accepted by this crowd that was using heroin, because they are 
wary of law officers, and they know there is quite a little more pressure 
now than in the past. 

Senator Wiley. The ordinary girl of 12 or 13, when she comes to 
the age of puberty, is she indulging in prostitution in order to get 
the money at the age of 12, 13, or 14 ? 

The Witness. Well, I saw one 14, whom I knew personally, engag- 
ing in prostitution, but I have seen numerous girls of 15 and 16. 

Senator Wiley. Were they with boys in school, or with adults ? 

The Witness. With adults. 

Senator Wiley. To get the money ? 

The Witness. Yes. I mean, never any prostitution with a person 
their age. 

The Chairman. Both white and colored? 

The Witness. Both white and colored, it is immaterial. 

Mr. Moser. You mean both white and colored girls were doing it ? 

The Witness. Not necessarily partners in a business enterprise, but 
they were doing it. 

The Chairman. I meant, for instance, would these colored girls 
go with white men ? 

The Witness. Oh, yes. In fact, there was a situation I remember 
where a white girl was brought into a colored neighborhood for the 
specific reason that she could more so entice the Negro men, more than 
the colored girl could, because she was more attractive. 

Senator Wiley. Was she a drug addict? 

The Witness. Yes. You would very seldom find a girl that young 
as a prostitute if she was not a drug addict. 

Senator Wiley. What did the teachers do ? Did they know about 
that? 

The Witness. The teachers were not conscious of it. 

Mr. MosER. They were not ? 

The Witness. No. 

Senator Wiley. You say they were not ? 

The Witness. No ; as prevalent as it was in the school, they never 
seemed to know. Maybe they were aware of it and just overlooked it ; 
there was nothing they could do. 

The Chairman. In the case of a white girl coming into a colored 
neighborhood, would they take her to a house? 

The Witness. Well, they would meet her on the street, or frequent 
a bar. 

Mr. Moser. Where did they practice their prostitution ? 

The Witness. They have districts in Chicago, where it is just like — 
it is one district, and it is called Dopeville. They are principally dope 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 201 

addicts there. They wake up in the morning, go out and cash checks, 
sho]5lift, burglarize, rob someone, just like getting up and going to 
work, and thev return home and they are through for the day. 

There are hotels around there with'nothing but dope addicts in them. 

Senator Wiley. What is the population of that district which you 
think are dope addicts '^ 

The Witness. I would say in this specific district that I am speaking 
of, I would say it would be close to 2,000, I guess. 

Senator Wiley. Two or three thousand people living there; all 
dope addicts? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. How did you describe that district ? 

The Witness. Well, there are hotels and taverns and bars. 

Senator Wiley. No; what is the name of it? 

The Witness. It is called Dopeville. 

Senator Wiley. Between what streets? 

The Witness. Dopeville is in Chicago on the South Side. 

Senator Wiley. On the South Side ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Can you give us a better location than the South 
Side, can't you describe it better than just calling it the South Side? 
Between what streets ? 

The Witness. (No answer.) 

Mr. MosER. Would you rather not tell us that? 

The AViTNESS. Oh, I wouldn't mind telling. 

The Chairman. Or if you would rather tell us not on the record, 
if you wouldn't want it written down there, we will not put it on the 
record. 

Mr. MosER. Oh, he doesn't mind, he will tell us. Won't you ? 

Senator Wiley. I am talking about the streets. 

The Chairman. In other words, we want you to help us, and we 
want to get the information, not to get you in any trouble, and not to 
mention your name. 

The Witness. Well, there is Cottage Grove and Thirty-ninth ; that 
is the main intersection. 

Mr. MosER. Now, when you started in with this, Harvey, did you 
know that you might get hooked ? 

The Witness. I knew that drugs were habit forming, but I was 
always under the impression, like the majority of the rest of the 
younger boys my age, they figured that they could use it and control 
it, and when they felt themselves getting strangely attached to the 
drugs that they could stop if they wanted to. There is no such thing 
as it creeping up on you all of a sudden ; you wake up, and there it is. 

Mr. MosER. You did not know that ? 

The Witness. I did not know that. 

Mr. MosER. If you did know that you would not have started ? 

The Witness. I don't know, because people told me not to. 

Senator Wiley. Do you have brothers and sisters ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Are they using it, too ? 

The Witness. No ; no one in my family has used drugs but me. 

Senator Wiley. You are a real bright young fellow, and you have 
gone through a lot of this hell. How are we going to stop it? 



202 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. I mean, it seems the the way to stop a dope addict, it 
just doesn't seem possible, in the first place, that he could hardly be 
stopped by the methods they are using now. I mean, where they are 
using, like giving an excessive amount of time for minor offenses, or any 
such thing as that for 12-year-olders. I suppose in the long run it 
would stop them peddling, if you gave them long sentences for sell- 
ing it to children, and giving them long sentences for the use of 
narcotics. But I feel if you do run into a drug addict, that if he is 
treated more so as a patient, that he is supposed to be like me, regard- 
less of the people around me, I have one consolation, I know that I am 
not naturally wrongdoing, so to speak, and I know that I would never 
have stolen anything in my life if I had not been using drugs. 

Senator Wiley. Well, I am not talking about the addict; he is 
just a patient. I am talking about the peddler, and the fellow that 
gives it to the peddlers. What do you know about where the peddler 
gets his stuff? 

The Witness. I don't know anything about that. I never got that 
far. I never bought dope in sufficient quantities to have any kind 
of relations with them. 

Senator Wiley. Well, you see what it has done to yourself and to 
others; what do you suggest should be done to the peddler? 

The Witness. Well, there is quite a differentiation between a peddler 
who is a nonaddict and a peddler who is an addict. A peddler who is 
an addict, I mean, he is selling drugs to help support his habit, not 
because he wants to, but because he has to. 

But then there are nonaddict peddlers who are — I mean, they will 
brag about it, they will say, "I am making money off of them." I 
really have no sympathy for anyone who does wrong and can help it. 
If a man breaks in a house and he is a dope fiend, I do have sympathy 
for him, but a man who just gets up and breaks into a house without 
no reason at all, I have no sympathy for him. 

Senator Wiley. A dope peddler who is a nonaddict? 

The Witness. I wouldn't have no sympathy for him, because I real- 
ize the type of person he is. They are not out to help anybody. 

Mr. Moser. We have got some other witnesses that we want to see. 
Thank you very much. You have been very helpful and we appreciate 
it. You may be contributing to getting other people off of it, if that 
is any satisfaction to you. 

The Witness. Thank you. 

Senator Wiley. Are you getting good treatment here? 

The Witness. Yes, I am. 

Senator Wiley. And you are going to handle the proposition; 
you have got a good mind, and you, can handle it. 

Do you belong to Addicts Anonymous ? 

The Witness. Yes, I have been down to their meetings. I am not an 
active member. 

Senator Wiley. Well, you had better go down. They have the 
only answer, apparently, for some of you. 

The Witness. Thank you. 

Mr. MosER. Our next witness will be . 

The Chairman. Good afternoon, Jeanne. We have been asking all 
the witnesses to be sworn. You don't mind, do you? 

The Witness. No. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 203 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand ? In the presence 
of the Almighty God, do you swear that the testimony you are about 
to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 

The Witness. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MISS , DEUG ADDICT 

The Cjfairman. Jeanne, where are you from? 

The Witness, Cincinnati. 

The Chairman. How old are you ? 

The Witness. Twenty. 

The Chairman. Have you been married? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. When were you married? 

The Witness. Wlien I was 18. 

The Chairihan. Have you been living with your husband recently? 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. How long were you living together ? 

The Witness. I lived with my husband about 7 months. 

The Chairman. How long have you been down here? 

The Witness. This is my fourth month here. 

The Chairman. What did you come down for ? 

The Witness. I am a prisoner. I was arrested for possession. 

The Chairman. Mr. Moser, go ahead. 

Mr, MosER. Jeanne, what school did you go to ? 

The Witness. Well, as I said, I am from Cincinnati, and I went to 
two grade schools ; I went to the Norwood High School, and I went to 
the Witherell High School in Cincinnati. 

Mr. Moser. When did you leave? 

The Witness. When I was in the eleventh grade. 

Mr. Moser. Did you leave because of drug addiction ? 

The Witness. No ; I wouldn't say so. I mean, at the time I left 
school I was only smoking marijuana, and I more or less felt like I 
was going there, and I was too much of an adult for the activities 
that were going on in school, but I found out later that I was not, but 
nevertheless at the time I thought that I was, and I just quit. 

Mr. Moser. You were about 18 when you started using marijuana? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And a lot of other kids in school were smoking it? 

The Witness. It seemed like a lot to me, because the girls and boys 
I associated with were using it. 

Mr. Moser. They were all doing it ? 

The Witness, les. I would say that there were at least a dozen 
of us. 

Mr. Moser. And you started using heroin at what age ; about 18 ? 

The Witness. About 18. 

Mr. Moser. Before or after you were married ? 

The Witness. After I was married. I had "chippied" with it; 
what I mean by that, I had taken a shot now and then before I got 
married, but I didn't actually become addicted until after I was 
married. 

Mr. Moser. Were they mainline or skin shots? 

The Witness. Skin shots. 



204 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. Did your husband use drugs at all? 

The Witness. Yes ; but he has never been addicted. 

Mr. MosER. He just chippied? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Now, you got started on heroin, as I understand it, 
because you were on the road with a show ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And the other people in the show were doing it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And you just did it in order to be along with them; is 
that right? 

The Witness. Well, one fellow in particular got me started, and I 
mean, lie was older than I was, and I didn't want them to think that 
I was young, so I used it in order for them to think that I was older. 
You know how you are when you are young ; if you do everything that 
somebody older than you does, they will accept you as being older ; at 
least, tliat is what you think. 

Mr. Moser. Also, you were falsifying your age in order to get in 
the show, weren't you? 

The Witness. 1 es. 

Mr. Moser. When you started in, did you know about being hooked? 

The Witness. No ; I did not. 

Mr. Moser. You had not been told about that ? 

The Witness. I did not know that drugs were addicting. To me, 
it was something to get high on and to keep from facing reality. 

Mr. Moser. They did not tell you about addiction ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Do you think that you would have stopped if you had 
known that? 

The Witness. I certainly would have. I don't think I would have 
used it in the first place. 

Mr. MosER. That is easy to say after you have been hooked, isn't it? 

The Witness. What is easy to say ? 

Mr. Moser. That you would not have tried it if you had known. 

The Witness. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Moser. How did you get it? 

The Witness. I bought it from peddlers. 

Mr. Moser. Wliat kind of peddlers ; mostly colored ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. On the street? 

The Witness. Yes. As I told you yesterday, when I first started 
using drugs, we would use a man as a go-between ; they didn't feel as 
thougli we were trustful enough to take to the real connection, and 
we would give them the money, and they would go someplace, but 
after we had our marks to prove to the peddlers that we really were 
addicted, then we went to the connection ourselves and bought it. 
Sometimes we would go to their homes, sometimes on the street, and 
sometimes they would leave it someplace where you would pick it up, 
and you would send them the money. There is all ways of getting 
it. 

Mr. Moser. You traveled around quite a little with the show, didn't 
you? 

The Witness. Yes ; I did. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 205 

Mr. MosER. In what cities did you go ? 

The Witness. Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, New York, Florida, 
mostly. 

Mr. MosER. Wlien you went to a new city how did you find out 
where the peddlers were? 

The Witness. I hit for the colored neighborhood. I had my marks 
to show, and you can usually tell a junkie. 

Senator Wiley. What do you mean by "marks" ? 

The Witness. All these are where I have shot intravenously, and 
naturally they have cleared up quite a bit since I have been off, but 
they are very outstanding when you are on [exhibiting arms to the 
committee] . 

Then you can go to the peddler and say, "I must be a junkie; I 
have got the marks." And that is your proof that you are not the 
law, or anything, you know, and usually I would always go to a 
colored neighborhood, because I feel it is easier to get it in the colored 
neighborhood, because the neighborhood is much smaller than a 
white neighborhood, and you can usually pick out the colored addicts, 
you know. They will sit up and nod like this [indicating], you know, 
like they are sleeping or something, and then, if you have the marks 
to prove that you are a junkie, 9 times out of 10 you can buy it. 

Senator Wiley. They will sell it to you then ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. How much did you have to pay for it ? 

The Witness. Dili'erent prices in dilferent cities. In Cincinnati, 
where I am from, I paid $4 a cap ; in Detroit, I paid $2.50 ; in Chicago, 
$2.50; in New York, $1. That is so much per capsule. These are 
for capsules. In New York you can buy a big package for $3. I 
think New York is cheaper than any place I have ever been. 

Senator Wiley. It is easier to get there, too ? 

The Witness. Yes. I mean, there are a lot more peddlers in New 
York City than any place I have been. 

Senator Wiley. How about Cleveland? 

The Witness. In Cleveland there are quite a few peddlers. I 
would say for the comparison in size, comparing the two towns, 
Cleveland had just as many peddlers as New York for its size. 

Senator Wiley. How many caps a day did you take? 

The Witness. Twelve to 15 caps. 

Senator Wiley. So, you would be spending anywhere from $15 
to $30 a day ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. And maybe as much as $40 a day ? 

The Witness. Sometimes more than that, because after I had 
used heroin for about a year it no longer gave me any feeling. I 
mean, all I did was to take it just to get rid of sickness. I didn't get 
a kick out of it. So, I started using cocaine. And cocaine, as I 
understand it, really is not an addicting drug, but it makes you want 
it so badly that, after I started using cocaine and heroin, my habit 
usually cost me a lot more. 

Mr. MosER. You used both of them together, and those were called 
speed balls? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. How much were they ? 

85277— 51— pt. 14 14 



206 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Oh, I mean different prices different days. I mean, 
when you are on cocaine, or speed balls, I mean, you are never finished 
shooting ; you could shoot up all day long, as long as you had money 
to buy it. 

Senator Wiley. $40 or $50? 

The Witness. Sure. 

Mr. MosER. Where did you get the money ? 

The Witness. Oh. that was easy. 

Mr. MosER. How did you get the money ? 

The Witness. Well, I mean, naturally you couldn't be employed 
and make this kind of money. T mean, I did just about anything. 

Mr. MosER. Did you lose your job with the show ? 

The Witness. I didn't lose it, no; I quit. 

Mr. MosER. You did not have time for the show and get your drugs, 
too? 

The Witness. I mean, how can you j)erform and still get the money 
for the drugs? 

Mr. MosER. Did you lift checks? 

The Witness. No ; I never have, but that was not — well, I shouldn't 
say that I never have. I have, but that was not predominating in my 
case. 

Mr. MosER. Was prostitution the principal source? 

The Witness. Well 

Mr. MosER. Or a great deal of it ? 

The Witness. No; not prostitution. I would say just more or less 
conA'ersation, you know, conning a man. 

Mr. MosER. Tell us about "conning a man." 

The Chairman. Now, if you don't want it written down, we won't 
write it down. 

Mr. MosER. Oh, Jeanne is ready to tell us everything; aren't you, 
Jeanne ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. You are thinking, or you must be thinking, of other 
girls thnt you wonld want to save from getting into this fix? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Well, tell us how you got the money. 

Mr. Moser. "Conning a man" ; tell us about that. 

The Witness. I mean, well, in other words, I mean to con is to act 
as a confidence person, or to confidence somebody. In other words, 
you promise them something that isn't ever going to happen, and 
they give you the money and you just leave. That is all. 

Mr. Moser. Do you mean, for example, that you promised to go to 
bed with them and then don't? 

The Witness. Something like that, but usually a confidence game, 
a confidence game is something much bigger, usually. Maybe it is 
played on a bookie, or at the race track, where you tell them you have 
some inside tips on horses, or things like that. 

Mr. Moser. And they give you the money and you skip? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did vou ever try knock-out drops? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Tell us about that. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 207 

The Witness. Well, knock-out drops is chloral hydrate, and if you 
■drink with a man, and you see that he has got quite a bit of money on 
him, you just put it in his drink, and he drinks it and goes to sleep, 
and you take his money. 

Mr. MosER. And beat it? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. How long does he sleep ? 

The Witness. About 9 hours, usually. 

Mr. MosER. Where did you do the drinking? Did you do it in a 
private room ? 

The Witness. Well, yes. 

Mr. MosER. You would not do it in a bar, where he would fall 
asleep at a table? 

The Witness. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr. MosER. AVould you go to a hotel room? 

The Witness. Nine times out of ten, if you are going to do some- 
thing like that, you are sitting in a cocktail bar in a hotel in the first 
place where you meet the person. 

Mr. MosER. And then you go to a room and have a drink and then 
give him the knock-out drops? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And then skip? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. That is a good way to make money; isn't it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. ]\IosER. Did you have to do any stealing? 

The Witness. Well, very little, because, in fact, the business of 
putting knock-out drops on a man and prostituting and all that only 
lasted a little time, because I started going with a man who peddled 
it, and after I started going with him I didn't have to worry about 
buying it any more. 

Mr. MosER. Well, when you were with him you could be on it all the 
time ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. He supplied you with it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MovSer. Tell us about how he operated? Wliere did he buy it; 
do you know? 

The Witness. No ; I don't know. 

Mr. MosER. He just bought it 

The Witness. From another peddler, I guess. 

Mr. MosER. Yes. Did he ever persuade other people to become ad- 
dicts for the purpose of getting them to become customers, or give it 
free to them, give it to them free in order to start them? 

The Witness. Yes. I mean, any peddler, or most peddlers I have 
known, that is what they do. I know in my case peddlers would give it 
to you very easily until you became addicted, and then after you were 
addicted they wanted you to buy it, but before you are addicted they 
are more free Avith it and they will give it to you. 

Mr. MosER. Sometimes they will give it to you cheaper or not charge 
you at all? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Senator Wiley. Was he addicted? 



208 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness, You mean this peddler? 
Senator Wiley. Yes ; the one you went with. 

The Witness, No, 

Mr. MosER. About what percentage of the peddlers are addicted ? 

The Witness. I would say about half. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever know anybody who died from an over- 
dose? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Many? ' < 

The Witness. Well, yes, 

Mr. MosER. Several people that you knew ? 

The Witness, Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Overdose of what ? Let's get that. 

The Witness, Of drugs, heroin. In other words, the drugs had not 
been cut enough or diluted enough. It was too strong for the system. 

Mr. Moser. What hapj^ened when they died; did they just drop 
dead on the street ? 

The Witness. Well, they had to be some place where they were 
shooting up to die. Anybody with an overdose, I would say it takes 
anywhere from 3 seconds to 15 minutes for them to die from it. 

Mr. MosER. You mean that they had been in a washroom or some- 
thing like that? 

The Witness. Any place where they could shoot. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever know anybody to get a "hot shot" ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Where did they get it ? 

The Witness, Well, tlie cases I have seen, usually when a person 
gets a "hot shot" it is because he is a rat; that he has told somebody 
else. 

Mr. MosER. So that the peddler would give him a "hot shot" ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Mosher. Did you ever know any peddlers who gave a "hot 
shot"? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. Moser. Did they ever give a "hot shot" merely because they 
didn't have the drug and wanted to get money, and they used poison 
instead ? 

The Witness. I mean, I have heard of that, but I have never seen 
it. I never knew anybody that did that, that I knew, 

Mr, MosER, But you have known people who have gotten "hot 
shots" because they ratted? 

The Witness, Yes, 

Mr. Moser. Now, have you any suggestions as to how we can keep 
other people from starting? 

The Witness. Well, the only thing I can think of, as I understand 
it, there is quite a bit of addiction among high-school children, and 
to me, I mean, they waste all this time giving movies on sex and 
everything, and I think addiction has become Nation-wide, and they 
should take that time to give movies and lectures on drug addiction 
in high schools, because high school is really a nest for peddlers. First, 
he goes there with marijuana, and the children start smoking mari- 
juana, and marijuana always leads them to something else. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMJMERCE 209 

There are very few addicts I know who did not start on marijuana. 

Now, I feel that in my case, if I had known the results, and the 
things that I would do in order to get the drug, I don't think that 
I would have ever started, because I know that I have done a lot of 
things that I would never do in my right mind, and I really didn't 
consider anybody — I don't consider anybody in their right mind 
when they are on drugs, either. 

jMr. MosER. You would do anything to get drugs ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You would become so> desperate? 

The Witness. Yes. I mean, it is either a choice of doing some- 
thing or being awfully sick, and I mean being sick from withdrawal 
of drugs is like no other sickness. 

Mr. jMoser. It is painful ? 

The Witness. It really is ; it makes you miserable. 

Mr. ]\IosER. Is it painful ? 

The Witness. It really is. 

Senator Wieey. Well, I would like to know what the attendance 
was at this high school that you attended. 

The Witness. What is the what ? 

Senator Wiley. How many were attending that high school that 
jou attended? 

The Witness. I don't know, but it was a great big high school. 

Senator Wiley. A couple of thousand ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. How many do you think were addicted to mari- 
juana in that high school? 

The Witness. Well, I don't know. I imagine there were quite a 
few using it that I didn't even know about. But it is a common thing 
amongst sororities and fraternities nowadays. It used to be a big 
thing to have whisky at a sorority party, but nowadays it is mari- 
juana or drugs, because a lot of school kids sniff heroin and cocaine. 

Mr. MosER. How many did you know when you were in high 
school who were actually indulging in the heroin habit? 

The Witness. Nobody. 

Senator Wiley. They were all using marijuana ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator AViley. How many did you know ? 

The Witness. Well, fifteen or sixteen. 

Mr. MosER. She testified that she herself did not use heroin in 
school. That is correct ; isn't it ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Senator Wiley. Well, you have seen the terrible, devastating con- 
ditions that have resulted from the use of drugs. 

What was the character of the peddlers? What was their nation- 
ality? 

The Witness. Well, now, I realize that there are a lot of white 
peddlers, but the most of them I ever met were either Spanish or 
colored. 

Mr. Moser. Spanish or colored? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Now, you got in here because of what ? 

The Witness. Possession. 



210 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Wiley. Possession of drugs? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. And the man you were tied up with, he was a 
peddler also? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. What about him, did anything happen to him ? 

The Witness. Well, I don't know, because I have lost track of him. 

Senator Wiley. Were you living with him as man and wife at that 
time ? 

The Witness. No. 

Senator Wiley. How did you get tied up with him, then ? 

The Witness. I met him while I was on a show. 

Senator Wiley. What were you doing? • 

The Witness. Singing. 

Senator Wiley, Singing ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. In view of the devastation that you have seen, and 
the effect upon our youth, would you be willing — or let me ask you 
first, do you go to this Addicts Anonymous group? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Well, now, you have got a lot of natural ability. 
I have been observing you. You have been in the show business, and 
you know that there are a lot of folks who have made mistakes, and 
then have turned around and done a tremendous job for poor human- 
ity, and I know of no greater need right now than to have a lesson 
taught to the youth, as you have said. 

Did you ever think that perhaps for the part of your life that has 
been misspent tlnit you could from here on in do a tremendous job for 
the youth of this country? 

The Witness. Yes, but I don't know in what way I could do it, 
except if I ever saw anybody using it to tell them about it. 

Senator Wiley, Well, you were in the show business, weren't you? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Well, I don't know anything about your confine- 
ment here, but if you can, through the training that you get and the 
treatment you get here, together with a grasp of what they are teach- 
ing in Addicts Anonymous, if you can use that, you can have a virtual 
rebirth. I have seen it. I have seen it in lives that have been recast 
and have become tremendously useful citizens, who left the dead, they 
bui'ied the dead, and they go forth to do something. You do a little 
thinking on that. 

The Witness. All right. 

Mr. MosER. Thank you very much. We appreciate your help. 

The Witness. All right. 

Mr. MosER. We will now call . 

The Chairman. Good afternoon, Stanley. We have been swearing 
everyone here, and I don't suppose you will object to it. 

The Witness. No, 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand, please. 

In tlie presence of the Almighty God, do you swear that the testi- 
mony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth ? 

The Witness. I do. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 211 

TESTIMONY OF MR. , DRUG ADDICT 

Mr. MosER. Your name is , and you are from 

Brooklyn, N.Y.? 

The Witness. That is correct. 

Mr. MosER. How old are you, Stanley? 

The Witness. Nineteen. 

Mr. MosER. Tell us what school you went to. 

The Witness. To the Jefferson High School, Brooklyn, N. Y., the 
Thomas Jefferson High School. 

Mr. MosER. Did you graduate? 

The Witness. No ; I did not. 

Mr. MosER. Why not ? 

The Witness. Narcotics. 

Mr. Moser. You left because you had to get the drug ; is that correct ? 

The Witness. That is correct. 

Mr. MosER. Did the children in school use marijuana while you 
were there ? 

The Witness. It was not prevalent; there were very few people 
using it there. 

Mr. MosER. But you did use it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. When did you start ? How old were you ? 

The Witness. Approximately 16 or I6I/2. 

Mr. Moser. How many did you smoke a day ? 

The Witness. Five to ten. 

Mr. Moser. Cigarettes ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Was the marijuana smoking more prevalent among the 
colored or white children ? 

The Witness. Colored. 

Mr. Moser. Mostly colored ? 

The Witness. But not in the school itself. 

Mr. Moser. In the neighborhood? 

The Witness. In the neighborhood. 

Mr. Moser. Did you live in a neighborhood where there were colored 
people ? 

The Witness. Not far away. 

Mr. Moser. Right near by? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How did you happen to start in using heroin ? 

The Witness. Through association with friends. 

Mr. Moser. Where otTier people were doing it? 

Senator Wiley. Did he say "social" ? 

Mr. Moser. Associates, or association with friends. 

Senator Wilet. I see. 

Mr. Moser. In school. 

While you were in school you obtained a basketball scholarship, 
did you not? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And that scholarship would have done what for you ? 

The Witness. It would have allowed me to go to school. 

Mr. Moser. Through college ? 



212 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Through college, whatever course I chose, free. 

Mr. MosER. To the Long Island University College, you told me. 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. It would have been a free education ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You were a good basketball player? 

The Witness. I hope so. 

Mr. MosKR. Did you play in the summer ? 

The Witness. In the summer months I would journey up in the 
mountains. 

Mr. MosER. On what they call the Borslit Circuit ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. While you were there did you use any drugs ? 

The Witness. Yes. I was using heroin. 

Mr. MosER. Is that where you started ? 

The Witness. No ; it was the summer before, I was using marijuana, 
but the next summer I was on heroin when I went up there. 

Mr. Mosp^R. Were other boys on the trip using it also? 

The Witness. None of the athletes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you get started from somebody who was not an 
athlete? 

The Witness. None of the athletes, you know, were using drugs. 

Mr. MosER. You were the only one who did ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And you only used it a little bit? 

The Witness. That summer in the mountains ; yes. 

Mr. MosER. You started off by "joy popping"? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Just to try it? 

The Witness. Week ends, and things like that. 

Mr. MosER. When you were off your training? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. But when you got back from the basketball season in 
the summertime, what did you do in the wintertime ? 

The Witness. I more or less increased the doses in drugs. 

Mr. MosER. You started shooting it in the vein ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Other people you knew were doing it ? 

The Witness, That is correct. 

Mr. MosER. What did you do for money with which to buy the 
drugs ? 

The Witness. Well, I borrowed from friends, relatives, and my par- 
ents — I just got it. 

Mr. Moser. Did you work at jobs? 

The Witness. Various jobs, clerical work. I never kept a job so 
long. 

Mr. MosER. You could not keep them ? 

The Witness. No, I could not keep them. I could not work stead- 
ily. I did not feel like going to work when I was using the drug, I 
had no interest in the work, and I was lackadaisical, and things like 
that. 

Mr. Moser. So you were just no good ? 

The Witness. That is right. 



ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 213 

Mr. MosER. You could not play basketball? 

The Witness. That is correct. 

Mr. MosER. Your basketball days were over ? 

The Witness. I was through. 

Mr. MosER. Aud you missed out on college because of it? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Now, was it hard to get the drugs ? 

The Witness. No. 

Mr. MosER. Where did you go for them ? 

The Witness. Through peddlers. 

Mr. MosER. On the street? 

The Witness. Right on the street. 

Mr. Moser. In Brooklyn? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever go any place where it was sold? 

The Witness. Yes. We would know where it would be sold. 

Mr. MosER. In some houses ? 

The Witness. Yes, houses, places where the peddlers would be. 

Mr. MosER. You got money by forging Government checks, didn't 
you? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Wliere did you get the checks ? 

The Witness. In the mail boxes. 

Mr. Moser. Tell me about how you knew what mail boxes to go for. 

The Witness. Well, during the middle of the month, the only checks 
that would be out would be the State unemployment checks, and at 
the end of the month there would be the Government checks. 

Mr. Moser. Wliere would you go for those ? 

The Witness. Well, more or less where there would be a larger pro- 
portion of unemployment, in the lower middle-class neighborhoods, 
but toward the end of the month you would find that the Government 
compensation checks and veteran checks were coming in, and then 
later on, just before I was arrested, a lot of money was flowing out 
freely, because of income-tax returns, and for those I would go to 
more or less of the better class neighborhoods, because there would 
be a larger amount of money in each check. 

Mr. MosER. How did you open the mail boxes ? 

The Witness. With a can opener. 

Mr. Moser. In apartment houses? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you open a whole row? 

The Witness. No; you would use a small pen flashlight, and you 
were able to detect in which ones there were checks. 

Mr. Moser. You would peek through the openings in them ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever engage in a worse crime than that to 
get money ? 

The Witness. No, I could not see resorting to a gun, I just could 
not do it. 

Mr. Moser. But some of the boys you knew did ? 

The Witness. Yes. I have known of people to use guns and go 
out and hold people up with them. 

Mr. Moser, White boys? 



214 ORGAJVIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Witness. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. They were holding up people? 

The Witness. They were holding up people. They would walk into 
a store and just actually make the person behind the counter sur- 
render the money that was there. 

Senator Wiley. Did they do any shooting? 

The Witness. I never heard of it. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think there are any limits to which an addict 
would not go to get money ? 

The Witness. It is only limited by the individual himself, I guess, 
but the individual resorts to doing things that he would not normally 
do if he was not using drugs. 

Mr. Moser. Did you know that you might get hooked at the time 
you played around with it? 

The Witness. Yes, I was aware of the fact that you could become 
addicted to drugs. I had seen people who were addicted to drugs, 
but I felt it just could not happen to me. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think that is true now ? 

The Witness. I know different now. 

Mr. Moser. It can happen to anybody, can't it ? 

The Witness. Oh, yes. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think if you had known in advance that it 
could happen to anybody that you would have tried it? 

The Witness. Well, the way I see it, the fact that you publicize, as 
things are now, you publicize the fact of the horrors of narcotics and 
you point out to the teen-agers how terrible it is and the dangers of 
it. I don't think the fact that it is dangerous will keep teen-agers 
off drugs when they reach 18 years old, because they are subject to be 
drafted anyway and to be sent to a foreign country and placed in 
conflict. There is danger all around them, and the fact that it is 
dangerous doesn't solve the problem. 

I don't believe that the problem lies in the potential addict. I 
believe the problem lies in the addict himself. Addiction, in my 
opinion, is more or less like leprosy, it is a mental leprosy. The only 
way an addict can become an addict — I mean, in large cities, I mean, 
you would not find it prevalent in the South, but where there are largo 
cities he is contaminated by the other addicts. I would never have 
gone on drugs if it was not for friends of mine. In other words, a 
friend of mine contaminated me. 

The problem does not lie in the potential addict, but it lies in the 
addict himself. If you can more or less help the addict himself, and 
not the potential addict, then you can lick the thing. 

Mr. MosER. What would you do for the addict himself ? 

The Witness. Well, in order to stop the teen-age addiction, you 
would have to more or less have the addicts come to you, and induce 
them to do that in some way so that they could not contaminate the 
youngsters, by sending the peddlers to jail, and for every peddler 
that goes to jail, even when there are stiff penalties, there is so much 
money in it for everyone, and if you send one away for 4 years, two 
crop up where he left off, because of the vast money to be made in it. 
Sending an addict to a penal institution does not solve the problem. 
In a penal institution he is off the drug. But I have known people 
to go to jail who were not addicts, who came out addicts. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 215 

Mr. MosER. You mean tliat they would get it in the jail? 

The Witness. Not only in jail, but they are contaminated by the 
addict himself. 

Mr. MosER. They hear so much about it that they get interested? 

The Witness. That is correct. You have to stop the flow of illegal 
narcotics coming into the country, and the only way I can see doing 
that is by revising the Harrison Act to make it legal for the addict 
to obtain drugs from a physician, and to give a stiff penalty for the 
addict if lie should be caught by giving someone else the drugs that he 
obtains from the physician, you should make that a stiff penalty. If 
be obtains drugs from a physician and it does not cost very much, 
then the peddler in the illegal market will just fall out of the picture. 
If he can buy it from a physician for 30 or 40 cents for each shot he 
takes, he just will not go to the peddler, and in that way it would 
not be profitable, it would take the profit out, especially when he knows 
he is facing jail if he is caught. 

Senator Wiley. You are talking about the addict and we are talk- 
ing about the potential addict, the thousands of youths who are con- 
taminated by the peddler or whoever it is. Now, what is your solution 
there? I agree with you that using the words, "Thou shalt not" 
generally does not operate as a stopgap to youth. Youth is 
adventuresome. 

The Witness. That is correct. 

Senator Wiley. But at the same time, when youth can see what it 
does to lives, don't you think that a good percentage of them would 
not fool around with the stuffs 

But if they have the other attitude that they are going to try to 
fool around with it, then the question arises as to the responsibility of 
the State, and these cesspools of iniquity should be wiped out. What 
<lo you have to say about that ? If your friends had not been able to 
get this dope for you in the beginning you would not be here, would 
jou? 

The Witness. That is correct. 

Senator Wiley. You would have gone on to that fine scholastic 
<'areer that was yours to have. I would like to get your reaction to 
that situation. 

The Witness. Well, my friend had to be contaminated by another 
addict : and in turn the other addict by some other addict. 

Senator Wiley. But in order to be contaminated they had to be 
able to get the dope. 

The Witness. The dope was there. 

Mr. ]MosER. Well, your idea is that so long as there is such a big 
profit somebody will find a way of getting it. 

The Witness. Yes. But the wary I see it, they publicize the fact as 
to how horrible it is to teen-agers, and how terrible it is. All right; 
that may scare off some. But when you talk about danger that won't 
stop the potential addict from using narcotics. The fact that it is 
so terrible might stop him. 

Senator Wiley. I agree with you. I agree that a certain percentage 
of youth will try anything when you tell them that they cannot do 
it. I know how that is. We tried that during the prohibition era, 
but the point I am getting at is that, if there is an adventuresome 
spirit in youth, can't that be turned into some other channels? It 



216 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

seems to me that our problem is to make it so darned hard for them 
that thev cannot o^et this dope. 

The Witness. Well, I believe that the solution lies in legalizing it 
for the confirmed addict. 

Senator Wiley. Oh, well ! 

The Witness. That is just my opinion. 

Senator Wiley. O. K. 

The Witness. Yes ; make it legal for the confirmed addict and reg- 
ister the addicts. I believe there was a book written that was called 
Opiate Addiction, by a doctor whose name was Lindhurst, and he made 
a lot of notes, he did a lot of reference work, and he refers to other 
books, and he reached the conclusion which I just related to you. 

He spoke about revising the Harrison Act to make it legal for the 
confirmed addict to obtain drugs, and he says that that would stop 
the trend of the illegal sale of drugs. 

Senator Wiley. Well, there may be something in that and that 
will be given consideration. 

Mr. MosER. We appreciate your help. 

The Witness. Thank you. 

The CnAiR]\iAN. Good afternoon, George. George, we have been 
swearing all the witnesses, and I don't suppose you will mind being 
sworn. 

The Witness. No. 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please. 

In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear that the testi- 
mony you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth? 

The Witness. Yes ; I do. 

TESTMONY OF MR. , DRUG ADDICT 

The Chairman. Your name is ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Moser. 

Mr. Moser. You are from Cincinnati ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser, How old are you ? 

The Witness. Thirty-seven. 

Mr. Moser. And you are here on a narcotics charge ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And that is for using demerol, right? 

The Witness. On my violation, that is what I was using. 

Mr. Moser. After you had been here first you were let out on parole? 

The Witness. No, sir. My original sentence was for morphine, 
and I really was taking anything when I was violating, but I had some 
demerol for palsy of the face. 

Mr. Moser. For violating your parole? 

The Witness. No. My violation of parole was purely on my 
wife's say-so. She thought that I was using drugs, but there was no 
proof whatsoever that I was, because I had not been. 

Mr. Moser. She reported you because she thought you were using 
it? 

The Witness. That is right. 



ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 217 

Mr. MosER. So you are here on the theory that you violated parole ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. Were you in the Army ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Wlien did you go in ? 

The Witness. 1941. 

Mr. MosER. How long were you in ? 

The Witness. Six years. 

Mr. Moser. You were 6 years in the Army ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. What did you do before you went in the Army? Wliat 
did you do for a living? 

The Witness. I was a musician most of the time. 

Mr. Moser. Were you doing pretty well ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Wliat else did you do ? 

The Witness. Well, I was counselor in a boy's camp, and before 
that I was scoutmaster. I was always interested in the youth move- 
ment and the Catholic youth organizations, and so forth. 

Mr. Moser. Yes. And you are married and separated, is that cor- 
rect? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And you are separated because of what ? 

The Witness. Incompatibility, probably. 

Mr. Moser. You became addicted while you were married? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Is there a relationship between your addiction and the 
incompatibility of your marriage ? 

The Witness. I believe that is the cause of my addiction, yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Wlien did you first come in contact with narcotics ? 

The Witness. While I was in the service. 

Mr. Moser. It was given to you ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. For medical treatment? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And that was the first time you had it ? 

The Witness. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Did you get hooked by it ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. You were not hooked ? 

The Witness. No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. So when you came under a marital strain you turned 
to the use of drugs^is that correct ? 

The Witness. 1 es ; that is right. 

Mr. Moser. Now, when you get out of here do you expect to go 
back to your wife? 

The Witness. No, sir ; not right away, at least. 

M*r. Moser. Do you think that a strain is what drives you to it? 

The Witness. ISfot only the strain, but not being able to more or 
less trust my wife. I mean, not knowing what she is liable to do at 
the slightest provocation. She turned me in on my original 2 years' 
sentence. I received that, and that was my fault and I took it. But 
when I was paroled and tried to go straight, why, she violated me 



218 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

without any warning whatsoever, and that in itself was enough to 
keep me from making my adjustment when I wanted to get out again. 

Mr. MosER. Have you had any dealings with Addicts Anonymous ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; when I was here before. 

Mr. MosER. What is your reaction to that? 

The Witness. I think it is a very good thing. It is a very good 
thing. 

Mr. MosER. For you ? 

The AViTNESS. It was for me, yes, sir; but I felt that I didn't need 
it any more when I came back, so I didn't go back into it again. 

Mr. MosER. You told me yesterday that since you have been here 
3'Ou had taken quite an interest in the youngest people in the institu- 
tion, because of your natural instinct for doing work with youngsters'? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Would you like to give us your reaction as to why the 
youngsters go into it ? Can you tell us what starts them, and any 
thoughts you may have on how to keep them from doing it? 

The Witness. I believe all of them go into it for the thrill that 
they get out of it, from what I have seen and heard here in talking 
with the young boys, and that it is purely a thrill, and these boys 
in turn get their friends addicted to it, just because they are not 
realizing the fact of what they are doing to their friends. 

Then generally they get girls addicted to it, you might say addicted,, 
because I believe most of it is mental addiction, myself. I believe 
very few young people come here with the habit. 

Mr. Moser. Some of them take large quantities, however. 

The Witness. They are taking large quantities, but whether the 
heroin value is very high or not, I don't know. Dr. Isbell would 
know more about that thaii I do. 

Mr. Moser. We have found cases wliere they have used very large 
quantities. 

Tlie Witness. Yes. there have been cases. 

Mr. Moser. Do you think that marijuana is usually a starting point 
for it? 

The Witness. It generally is ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. And then they switch to heroin ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. Do you think that they do it without knowing of the 
dangers ? 

The Witness. They do. 

Mr. Moser. If they knew the dangers, do you think that they 
might be more careful ? 

The Witness. Well, that is a question that is sort of hard to answer. 
If they knew the dangers. Sometimes I think these young teen-agers 
don't know how to react to dangers, anyway, because they are 
immature. 

Mr. Moser. And they are not afraid of danger? 

The Witness. They are not afraid of danger. 

Mr. Moser. Do you think that if they had known the facts that 
they would react to common sense instead of fear? 

The Witness. Yes; I believe it would help to a great extent. 

Mr. Moser. Yesterday you told me that you thought there was a 
lot of work to be done among the families of the children. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 219 

Tlie Witness. That is true. 

Mr. MosER. Will you tell me about that, please ? 

The Witness. Well, I believe that they come to two extremes, so 
far as teen-agers are concerned, either their families are well-to-do or 
they are extremely poor. I do not believe that there is too much 
of it so far as the middle class is concerned. 

Of course, in Harlem, where generally most of the population comes 
from here, as teen-agers they have had no home life at all. I mean, 
they went out, and all they know is prostitution, and so forth, and 
most of the boys that have come down here, that is what they tell me. 
I believe it to a great extent, because they not only tell me that but I 
hear it in conversation amongst themselves. 

That is why I believe a lot of the girls are addicted, because these 
young boys get the young girls addicted so that they will be prostitutes 
and can get money to keep the boys on the habit. That is actually 
going on amongst most of the boys that come down here. 

Mr. MosER. The girls give the money to the boys ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. Is that because they like the boys? 

The Witness. Well, they figure the boys can get them the junk,, 
and they give the boys the money for the junk. The boys buy most 
of it for themselves and they keep the girls satisfied enough so that 
they don't mind 2:oing out and doing what they are doing. 

Mr. MosER. Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

The Chairman. On the record. Could I ask a question right there ? 
Have you heard of any ii>stance where the boys are using the girls 
to peddle, with the expectation that if the girls are caught maybe the 
sentence might be lighter than if the boys were caught, and that the 
girls might get easier treatment ? 

The Witness. I have heard several times of that being done. I 
have also heard of getting young children who are not addicted to 
drugs, who are easily overlooked, I mean, like 8-, 9-, and 10-year-old 
children, they get them to carry the narcotics, and then if they make 
a buy, or anything like that, they in turn get it off the young children. 

In time, this child becomes addicted, too. I mean, as he grows older, 
he becomes addicted. That is what I have been hearing lately, 

Mr. Moser. They get the children to carry it so that they won't be 
caught ? 

The Witness. That is right. 

Senator Wiley. Do you know anything about the source of the 
drug ? 

The Witness. No, sir; nothing at all. 

Mr. Moser. You always got it> through medical centers, did you ? 

The Witness. That is right; yes, sir. I never used heroin. In 
the first place, I was afraid of it, so I never used any, and I have 
never known of another narcotic addict in my life, I got the drugs 
myself, and I shot the drugs myself. So, therefore I had no contact 
with peddlers, none at all, 

Mr, Moser. Do you have any more questions? 

The Chairman. I think no. 

Mr. MosER. Thank you very much. We appreciate your help. 

The Witness, Thank you. 



220 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. Now, I will call our last witness, who is a doctor. 

The Chairman. Good afternoon, Doctor. This is Senator Hunt 
and this is Senator Wiley. I am Senator O'Conor. 

Doctor, we are swearing all the witnesses. I don't suppose that you 
mind being sworn ? 

The Witness. No ; I do not. 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, 
please. 

In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear that the testi- 
mony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth ? 

The Witness. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF DR. , DRUa ADDICT 

The Chairman. Will you give us your name, please ? 

The Witness. . 

The Chairman. Where are you from. Doctor ? 

The Witness. I was born in Birmingham, or Bessemer, Ala., right 
outside of Birmingham. I have been in New Orleans ever since I went 
to medical school. 

The Chairman. What medical school did you go to? 

The Witness. Tulane. 

Mr. MosER. Did you study there and teach, both? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. I took my residence work at Charity 
Hospital in New Orleans. 

Mr. MosER. How long were you there ? 

The Witness. I have been there a total of 5 years. 

Mr. Moser. is here as a voluntary patient and has 

volunteered to testify, I might say. 

What is your age, Doctor ? 

The Witness. Thirty-two. 

Mr. MosER. Are you married? 

The Witness. Yes; I am. 

Mr. Moser. Do you have any children? 

The Witness. No children. 

Mr. MosER. Before you came here you were a practicing surgeon, 
as I understand it; is that correct? 

The Witness. That is correct. 

Mr. Moser. And you were also teaching at medical school ? 

The Witness. Well, I was practicing, I got leave from the school, 
and I went out to practice, and then went back to the school. 

Mr. Moser. I see. How many times have you been here? 

The Witness. This is my second trip. 

Mr. Moser. And your last? 

The Witness. I hope so, sincerely. 

Mr. MosER. How long were you here the first time ? 

The Witness. I stayed for the cure. I was here for 4 months on 
my first trip. 

Mr. MosER. How long have you been here this time? 

The Witness. I have been here now 2^^ months. 

Mr. Moser. What were you using? 

The Witness. Demerol. 



ORGAN^IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 221 

INIv. INIdSER. Demerol ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. INIosER. Now, tell us how yon happened to get hooked in the first 
place, just briefly, because we are interested more in the other things 
that you will tell us besides that. 

The Witness. Well, it boils down to probably the same thing as 
with many other physicians who get addicted to drugs. I was sick 
my last year as resident in the hospital, and run down, and when I went 
out to practice I was trying to carry on my work and the work of my 
partner, whom I was working with, and it was a little too much. I 
would occasionally take a shot of demerol, thinking that I was getting 
over my tiredness, and that I would help myself. Then in July of 
19-1:1) I had an infection in my leg, and I was taken to the hospital. 
The infection was drained, and there I received large doses of demerol, 
under the im]:)ression that I would not become addicted. 

After I got out of the hospital, the first night after I left the hos- 
pital, I had no drugs at home and I became nervous and irritable. I 
realized then that I was a narcotic, particularly after I got my first 
shot the next morning, and I I'ealized that something was wrong. 

I first went to a private sanitarium, I let my practice go, and I 
didn't receive any .benefit there, because they cannot actually lock a 
patient up, and you have to be under lock and key in order to get off 
drugs. 

So I left there and I went briefly back to New Orleans, and de- 
cided that I had better come up here and get straightened out. 1 
didn't like drugs, and I was too sick to get off on my own, so I knew I 
had to have help. 

Mr. MosER. Will you tell us your personal mental reaction to the 
two trips you have had here t Tell us about your first trip. 

The Witness. Well, the first trip I had here, I was not uncooper- 
ative, and I caused no trouble here at the institution, but I was 
resentful of the fact that I had ever been addicted to drugs. I could 
not realize that the thing had happened to me. I did not make, any 
particular effort to make friends, and I did not try to get all of the 
benefits that this hospital offered me. I did not try to make friends. 
I shunned everyone. I thought everyone was beneath me. 

I had the opportunity, but I did not join the AA group. I was 
asked to join that, and I figured that my own will power was sufii- 
cient, that I could pull out of it myself. 

I actually left here with the same attitude that I had when I came; 
the same chip on my shoulder, I had that when I left. 

I looked at people and resented the fact that I had gotten on drugs 
and they had not. I know that it was a silly attitude, and I was look- 
ing for an excuse to blame it on, and I blamed my family, my rela- 
tives, my friends, and I blamed them for the situation that I was in, 
and I blamed it on everything except on myself. I was the one who 
was the basic cause of it. 

Mr. MosER. This time you feel differently ? 

The Witness. Well, when I came back this time I had only been 
addicted a short time, and I knew this time I had to make it or I. 
don't know what the consequences would have been, but I came back 
with an entirely different attitude. I came back to get all the bene- 
fits I could out of this place, which are very considerable, and I want 

85277—51 — pt. 14— — 15 



222 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

to go out of here without taking drugs again. I believe this time I 
will accomplish it, because I hav6 made friends with all of these men 
here ; even though some have criminal records, they still are able to 
talk and give their viewpoint as to why they are on drugs and what 
liappened to them, and I have derived some good out of it. 

The Chairman. The first time after you left, how long was it be- 
fore you started using drugs again '? 

The Witness. I started again — this is May — I started— I can give 
you the date ; it was February 20 of this year. 

The Chairman. When you started? 

The Witness. Yes. 

The Chairman. How long had you been out of the institution? 

The Witness. I came back for my check-up, I believe it was, 
January 1950. In the interval I had taken barbiturates occasionally, 
but not narcotics. But in my opinion barbiturates are far worse than 
taking narcotics. 

Senator Wiley. What is that? 

The Witness. Sleeping tablets. I think that that is the most 
insidious druo- that is being manufactured toda3\ 

Senator Wiley. Well, why do we permit them to sell it? 

The Witness. I wish that they were under the narcotics law. 
We call them goof -ball artists here, these users of barbiturates, and 
tlie severity of the withdrawal, and the difficulty of coming off of 
tliose barbiturates, in my opinion and from what I have seen, far 
exceeds that of morphine. I think they are more dangerously ill 
coming off of barbiturates than they are coming off of morphine. 
There is far too mucli of it manufactured eacli year just to be used by 
therapeutists. It is too easy to get hold of. 

The Chairman. You were saying as to your own case, in the mean- 
time, wliat led up to your comiug back. 

The Witness. Well, I went out to New Mexico and took charge 
of a hospital, and we had a flu epidemic. I was treating a patient, 
aud I was the only doctor in the county; so you can understand how 
busy I was treating all kinds of patients. I came down with the flu 
myself, and all this time I realized, of course, in a vague sort of way 
tliat I could not liandle barbiturates, but I was sick, the telephone had 
been bothering me, and I took sleeping tablets. 

I don't remember getting up and doing anything else, but I got up 
and took some more, and I woke u]) in the hospital in Albuquerque, 
very nearly dead from it, and that was enough to start it over again, 

I was so disappointed in losing the job, I resigned, and I came back 
to Birmingham. 

Mr. MosER. Now, you are a member of AA; aren't you, here? 

The Witness. Yes; I am. 

Mr. INIosER. Do you want to tell us what your reaction to this 
group is? 

The Witness. Well, it is — we are not a religious group in any 
sense of the meaning. We try to realize tliat there is a liiglier power 
than ourselves that can help us. We first have to come to the realiza- 
tion that we have been powerless when it came to drugs; and, as 
the thing says, our lives become unmanageable and we have to look 
to a higher power. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 223 

I believe I realized this concept when I was here before — I mean, 
if I had realized this concept when I was here before, that T would 
not be back now. 

We do not believe in any particular religious creed, but each man 
believes in God, as he sees Him, and he believes that by depending 
on God he can stay off drugs. It is the same principle as Alcoholics 
Anonymous. We follow very closely their precepts. 

Mr. MosER. You told me yesterday that you think addicts have a 
tendency to blame other people for their addiction, and that is one 
of the things that AA ovei'comes? 

The Witness. It teaches us that it was our own eccentricities and 
our own selfishness that is the basis for anyone taking drugs. Occa- 
sionally a person can become medically addicted and it is not his fault, 
and you can blame physicians occasionally for not putting them 
through the withdrawal properly. 

Mr. MosER. Are you ashamed of having been addicted ? 

The Witness. Yes; I am ashamed of it, but I am more ashamed 
of the fact that I ever took drugs than anything else. I think the 
real shame of drugs is not being able to get off drugs. 

Mr. Moser. Don't you think that people would be less likely to 
go back if they felt instead of being ashamed that they had been 
sick? 

The Witness. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Moser. And if they felt they were not like criminals? 

The "Witness. I don't think everyone who takes drugs in a crim- 
inal by any means. Naturally I would say that. The petty thievery 
of the people that we have here has been caused by drugs ; these people 
liave to get money from some source, because it is expensive keeping 
the habit up, you see. There are certain types of people who might 
commit crimes whether they are on drugs or not. But I don't feel 
like a criminal for it. I have broken the law like anyone else who 
took drugs. 

Mr. Moser. You are going back to your practice with your head up, 
I suppose ? 

The Witness. I am going to try my best. I am not going to 
categorically say that I will never touch drugs again, because that 
would show too much self-assurance, and too much self-assurance is 
not good. I hope to stay off drugs, and I pray that I will, and I will 
do all I can to prevent my getting back on, but will power alone is not 
enough. 

Senator Wiley. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. Can you make any suggestions as to how we can keep 
youngsters from becoming addicts ? 

The Witness. Well, that is a pretty tough problem. I have talked 
to a number of these kids who have come in here, and it is my impres- 
sion that most of these children get on it for the thrill of it and 
nothing else. 

They have seen so much in the papers about it, and I have heard 
two kids make the statement that they saw articles about it in the 
paper, and they got to wondering if all these fellows would go through 
all of this suffering, and with the penalties attached to it, whether 
there must not be something to it, and they have wound up here. So 
they try it. 



224 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

I do not think that they are seriously physically addicted. We 
see many who come in to the acute-withdrawal ward who have a 
healthy appetite, and sleep 8 hours at night, with no particular with- 
drawal symptoms. I do not think that they are seriously addicted. 
They nuiy have taken two or three capsules of heroin that would not 
contain more than 2 or 3 percent, but they are mentally addicted, 
and they have what is called "habituation." It is a psycho-emotional 
dependency on drugs. I think that is the primary part. 

The only thing I can see about eradicating it is to try to educate 
these people and to show them that taking drugs is not glam(;r. us, 
and to educate their parents and teachers to look for the early signs 
in children and to try to show them the proper perspective, t think 
they need it. 

Mr. MosER. You think that education is important ? 

The Witness. 1 certainly do. You realize that there are certain 
children you will not be able to reach, no matter what the means is 
of education. Then, too, the last thing is the severe penalty for anyone 
selling narcotics to minors. In my opinion, it is the most dishonorable 
thing that anyone could do, because it would be far more merciful to 
put a gun to their heads and blow their brains out. 

The Chairman. Do you think that the situation is comparable or 
dissimilar to the VD situation of a few years ago, where there was 
quite a lot of ditference of opinion as to whether it was best to discuss 
mattei"s of venereal diseases, and nobody would talk about syphilis 
in public? 

The Witness. I think many times children who are addicted, and 
their pai'euts who find it out, or the children themselves, are hesitant 
about coming in, for they know what a stigma it is to take drugs, and 
many times I am sure that the kids would want to get off drugs, and 
would w^ant to break the contacts they have made, but they are afraid 
to stop, because there is such a sickness following the physical with- 
draAval. 

The Chairman. I meant particularly whether or not as to the bene- 
fits which might follow from proper educational programs, such as you 
outline, whether the benefits that came from publicizing and educa- 
tional effoits on the venereal-disease program might not be Avorked 
out in the same manner here. I wonder if that could not be duplicated 
here. 

The Witness. I think in general it could. I certainly do. Be- 
cause, after all, high-school kids are intelligent. They are able to 
understand this situation. I think, and this is my opinion now, and 
it is only my opinion from what I have found out about talking to 
these men. They tell us things that they would not tell you, and that 
is for every kid who becomes an addict, irrespective of who gives him 
narcotics, whether it is an older man of, say, 25 or 30 years of age, 
who is perhaps not an addict, but selling drugs, I think for every kid 
who becomes addicted, probably anywhere from 8 to 10 friends of his 
or acquaintances become addicted behind him. So, it is just a case of 
a pyramid building up. 

l^^r. >.Toser. In other words, it is a contagious disease ? 

The Witness. Yes, sir ; the same as measles or anything else. 



ORGANiIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 225 

Senator Wiley. Well, of course, if the kid that became addicted 
could not oet the stuff to become addicted Avith, then you would not 
have these other 15 takino; it, probably, or these other 10. 

The Witness. That is right. 

Senator Wiley. And I agree fully with you that that is the first 
place that you have got to find. You have got to cut out at the tap 
root of this thing, and the tap root probably goes way back to Turkey 
and Italy, and then it comes in here, and then comes the question of 
those who will import it and become distributors, and then it goes to 
the sellers. 

The other suggestion has been made here that for those who are 
addicted there might be some provision made so that they might be 
able to be taken care of, not only by institutions like this but, if they 
have to have it, that it can be gotten through channels that would not 
make it a tremendous gamble for the peddler to peddle it. 

I saw an article in the ])aper just Sunday, in one of the papers up 
in my State, that said, I think, that $100 invested would bring $100,000 
in retui'u in this country. 

The Witness. On narcotics? 

Senator Wiley. Yes. 

The Witness. That is i)robably true. 

Senator Wiley. Well, if that is true, then you can understand the 
tremendous temptation there is for men who have no responsibility 
for young lives. 

The Witness. I just don't think there is any penalty too severe 
for these men. 

Senator AViley. I am interested in one other thing, to me, I have 
often thought of what you have said about certain of these drugs that 
are prescribed, or that they can buy as patent medicines, or whatever 
they are, and there is a grave responsibility there to stop this business, 
for apparently they make the thing so that it tastes well, and those 
who take it get a kick out of it. I would like to have him develop 
that. 

]Mr. MosER. We are going to have Dr. Vogel come back and tell us 
something about that. 

Senator AYiley. Is that what you mean by ordering a glass of soda 
and dro])ping in some kind of capsule? 

The Witness. Those are what we call "goof balls." Those are 
Seconal, nembutal, and all sorts of things. They are sleeping tablets, 
but after a man takes them a certain length of time he actually gets 
a tolerance to these things, and they can take an enormous amount of 
them. Then they add something to it. They will take sleeping 
tablets and they will take dexedrine. You know what dexedrine is; 
it is a reducing tablet. They will get up in the morning and take 
anywhere from 8 to 10 tablets as a stimulant, and after the effect of 
the stimulant starts to wear off they will take several "goof balls*' 
of sleeping tablets, and it gives them a jag very similar to morphine. 

]Mr. MosER. They become addicted to that? 

The Witness. Yes; they do. Then the next morning they have 
to take more of the stimulant in order to wake up, and that: night they 
have to take a little more of the barbiturate in order to go to sleep, and 
they become addicted. 



226 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Wiley. What lias been done to preserve our kids in that 
direction? They cannot go out and buy a pistoL Why can they be 
able to do this ? 

Mr. MosER. Each year more States adopt laws requiring that those 
be sold only under prescription, and that restricts it to some extent. 
So far, it has not become so prevalent that it results in organized crime, 
so far as we can see, whereas in the case of narcotics it is different. 

Senator Wiley. Well, we induct fellows into the Army, and let 
us take the case of a youngster, if he becomes unfit, in the last World 
War we found a million and a half that we could not induct because 
of the lack of education, and now we are going to find that we cannot 
bring them in because of these habits and their physical condition, 
so I do think that the Federal Government is intei-ested in that di- 
rectly, irrespective of interstate connections. 

The Witness. You know, some of the boys who claim to be addicts 
do that just to keep out of the draft. 

Senator Wiley. Sure, but how can we stop that? We have had 
testimony to that effect today, sir, that some of then! are in here, and 
that they think they are putting one over. Do you know anyhing 
about that? 

The Witness. That some of them are in here, in this institution? 

Senator Wiley. Yes. 

The Witness. No, sir; I don't know. You mean one of the wit- 
nesses had done that trick ? 

Mr. MosER. No. He expressed the opinion that others had. 

The Witness. Well, I think that is true. 

Mr. MosER. From things that they have told you ? 

The Witness. Not things that they told me, because those kids 
wouldn't tell me that. 

Senator Wiley. But from things that you have observed ? 

The Witness. I have heard, directly heard, from some of the older 
men that they have heard the kids talk and say that they have done 
that in order to avoid the draft. I don't know what percentage of 
them have done that. 

Senator Wiley. I think that shows how we can become interested in 
this, and how we should be interested in this. 

Senator Hunt. Your father was not a doctor, was he ? 

The Witness. No. He was a druggist. 

Mr. MosER. I think that is all. 

The Chairman. Thank you. We are very much obliged to you. 

Senator Wiley. Good luck to you, Doc, and God bless you. 

Mr. MosER. We will now have Dr. Vogel back. 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF DR. VICTOR H. VOGEL 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, I would first like to ask you to enlarge on 
that subject of the draft and see what you think about it. 

Dr. Vogel. Well, of course, I have heard these r«mors, and I have 
tried to confirm them, without being able to do so in any specific case. 
I think probably it does occur occasionally that a boy uses drugs or 
says he does so in order to establish deferment or rejection. I under- 
stand that there is a blanket selective-service regulation which says 



ORGAN.IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 227 

that anyone who ever uses di'ii<2:s or gives a history of having used 
drugs is to be rejected. 

I suggest that sliould not be a bhmket provision, but that it should 
be based upon psychiatric study of the individual, as to his inadequacy. 
The mere fact that he may have used drugs a few times would not 
arbitrarily bar him from serving in the Army. 

I think if the regulations were changed in tliat respect, and if it 
became known that a mere history of the use of drugs would no longer 
be sufficient for rejection, it might discourage the boys from acquiring 
that history. 

The Chairman. Do you not think the psychological etl'ect would 
be good ? 

Dr. VoGEL. Tliat is right. They would not be so quick to establish 
that history. It should be based really on fundamental psychiatric 
defects, and not his history of taking drugs. 

Mr. MosER. We have talked to at least two boys who have said that 
they were in the Army only 3 or 4 days and were let out because they 
were addicts. I think if they knew that they would be kept in, and 
that they would be given rough duty, then they would not do it. 

Dr. VoGEL. I think it should be done on the basis of psychiatric dis- 
ability, on the presence or absence of psychiatric disorders, and not 
just on their record of whether they ever took a shot of narcotics. 

Mr. MosER. As you know, one of the things we want to do as the 
result of our study is to try to see whether there are some regulations 
that Ave could adopt which would have the effect of stemming this 
tide, and one of the points on which you might speak to us is that of the 
follow-up as])ects of the narcotic addict after he has been here. As I 
understand it, the follow-up is rather limited. Do you have some ideas 
as to how it miirht be impioved? 

Dr. VoGEL. Yes. We think that personal follow-up in the com- 
munities is important, for two reasons : One is that we as public-health 
people would like to know what the things are that contribute to ad- 
diction and rela])se to addiction. The other is that we would like 
to know what happens to our patients, what.happens to those who were 
treated one way, and what happens to those who were treated in a 
different way, what happens to those who went out against advice in 2 
months, compared to those who staj^ed the length of time we believe 
is the best time, 41/0 or 5 months. That would give us a basis of 
experience on which we could evaluate and possibly improve our 
results. 

We have tried to do that by correspondence, as I told the committee 
earlier. We have presented a plan to our headquarters, and I know 
that the Surgeon General looks upon it favorably, but, of course, the 
fund provisions come along very slowly. 

In order to establish grou])s in Cincinanti and New York, and other 
l^laces to work particularly with the teen-agers, basically these groups 
would have to include several psychiatric workers, social workers, and 
case workers, together with a statistical clerk who would make this 
sort of epidemiological study, and follow up our cases. There would 
be an integrating or correlating unit in this hospital, with punch cards 
on which the data would be accumulated and analyzed. 

We have presented one plan concretely which would cost $52,000, 
which would establish such a unit for a year on an experimental basis 



228 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

in either New York or Chicago, with the home unit at this hos])ital, and 
if we could establish a similar unit then also in other large cities, 
tliat is, both Chicago and New York, it would cost in the neighbor- 
hood of $75,000. 

We expect the money to be provided for an approach of this sort 
in the budget for the year beginning July Ido'I. It may be that 
emergency money will be found in the year to begin next month. 

Mr. MosKK. What is j^our reaction to the suggestion that has been 
made by some people that addicts be sent to some kind of a camp, or 
something, and isolated, and perhaps allowed to use their drugs, but 
to be ke])t away from the rest of the community ? 

Dr. Vo(jEL. Well, that might be all right in a different kind of society 
than ours, perhaps in Eussia, but we cannot conclude that any certain 
group of peoples are hopeless in this respect. We are surj^rised, every 
month, by recidivist addicts who before have not responded to treat- 
ment, but who after repeated treatment get a diiferent slant on it. 
They get an interest in AiV, for instance, that they did not have before, 
and they stay otf drugs for an indefinite period, so I would hate to see 
any considerable group confined as hopeless and put away in a camp 
for any indefinite period. 

Confirmed addicts frequently make the recommendation, as one 
man did, that a clinic be set up where the old addicts would be allowed 
to come for daily doses of drugs, and go on to their daily work. Those 
have been tried in years past in several cities, and they have always 
failed because of the abuses that crept in. 

In the first ])lace, no addict is satisfied to take the same dose indefi- 
nitely, although before the connnittee they may say that they are. 
They constantly want to get hu-gei" and larger doses in order to get 
the original effect. kSo, in addiiion (o tlie sti])end that they would 
receive there from the clinic, they would try to supplement it from 
outside sources, from bootleggers. 

Also, the newly recruited addicts wdio are not eligible to get drugs 
from the clinics would connive with those wdio are on the ration 
list to divert some of it, so you would have your same contraband 
traffic. You talk about getting drugs at a reasonable price, but it 
cannot possibly do away with the demand for contraband. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, I understand that there are very few institu- 
tions wliere they take care of addicts as you do here. Do any of the 
States have any institutions of this kind ? 

Dr. VoGEL. Some of the State hospitals take in addicts. But usu- 
ally they are so overcrowded and so ill-provided for financially they 
try their best to keep from taking addicts or alcoholics. Some private 
santariums take in addicts, and a mininuun of 4:l^ or 5 months is 
necessary, and the, cost in a private sanitarium would be from $100 
to $200 a week. A person in moderate circumstances cannot afford 
the period of treatment which we think is necessary. Maybe they 
can afford to go there for 2 or o weeks, just during the period of 
withdrawal. 

In our experience the relapse rate is almost 100 percent in such cases 
and the results are not good. 

Also, they are usually treated along with other types of cases, and 
the employees are not on the alert for the introduction of contraband 
drugs, and frequently patients don't even get through the withdrawal 
]>eriod because of contraband drugs that they receive. 



ORGAXJZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 229 

Senator Hunt. Where you have a severe situation in a patient goinj:^ 
through the withdrawal period, does that have a tendency to intimi- 
date them from aettina' started again, the fear of repeating that? 

Dr. VoGEL. Apparently not. xVpparently the attractiveness of the 
drug is so great that that does not deter them. One might think that 
they might gain by experience, but that has little or no deterrent effect. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think that we need more institutions of this 
kind or more facilities? 

Dr. VoGEL. If you believe the stories you read in the press of the 
thousands of addicts, then, obviously, more institutions must be needed, 
but on the basis of our experience all I can say is that there has never 
been a time when we have not been able to take promptly first-time- 
addicted male patients, and at the present time we have about 300 beds 
available, so 1 would hesitate to say, at least until the beds in the 
Federal hospitals are all occupied, that more hospitals are needed. 

For some reason the addicts are not coming for treatment here, 
presumably for the same reason that they would not go to other 
hospitals. 

>iow, 1 would repeat this recommendation which I made to our own 
headquarters. There has been a waiting list for w^omen patients for 
years, and we need an addition of 150 or 200 beds for our women's 
building here in order to eliminate the waiting list. P^ort Worth does 
not take in women patients. 

AVe also need an additional building with almost completely sepa- 
rate facilities for the better-type male patients, particularly the naive 
teen-agers, in order to bring about a certain measure of segregation 
from the older patients. We do have immediate plans, with the 
cooperation of the Public Building Service right after the 1st of July, 
when next year's money is available, to do some internal remodeling 
here, wliich will give us a unit of about 70 beds. This will provide 
separate sleeping arrangements for selected teen-agers, but it will not 
be large enough, nor will it give us a complete segregation of recrea- 
tional and dining facilities, and so on, which we really desire.. 

Senator Hunt. Doctor, do you think it would be helpful if we 
had legislation whereby the courts would send to you patients where 
the families have com])lained, or where social workers have picked up 
the case and say they should be institutionalized? 

Dr. VoGEL. I would like to answer that in very general terms; by 
and large, it is impossible to treat drug addiction successfully with- 
out some measure to insure their cooperation as a strictly voluntary 
patient they are not likely to complete the treatment. 

I would also like to mention to the committee the fact that, the 
House recently held a hearing on a bill which proposed to place the 
control of barbiturates, sleeping pills, under the Bureau of Narcotics. 

The Chairman. I understand that there is a difference of opinion. 

Dr. VoGEL. It is a tremendous job. There is a difference of opinion. 
If anybody is given the responsibility, a tremendous appropriation 
would be necessary to allow them to do a good job, because of the 
abusive use of these drugs being so common everywhere. 

The Chairman. Well, thank you, Doctor. That is all, gentlemen. 
We will adjourn. 

(Whereupon, at 4 p. m., the committee adjourned.) 



230 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

(The following was submitted for the record :) 

Supplemental Data, Narcotics 

July 2, 1951. 
To : Senator O'Conor, Chairman. 
By : Wallace Reidt, assistant counsel. 

Report in re : . 

At the public hearing before the Special Senate Committee To Investigate 

Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, , M.H.C. No. 654G1, 

stated that Sergeant Carroll and the other officers of the Narcotics Squad were 
guilty of accepting bribes from persons charged with crimes and that they also 
protected and tipped off known dealers in drugs and narcotics. He also stated 
that at the time of his arrest on the narcotics charge that he had been framed 
by these officers. 
Frame-ups 

1. admitted that he was guilty of dealing in narcotics but that he 

was not guilty of the offense as charged, and the police framed him. 

Tip-offs 

2. claims that he was at the place of a peddler whose name he 

cannot tell, but who was called "Buttercup." A tip was given that the place 
was to be raided and '"Buttercup's" woman, after cleaning the place up, gave 
a cap to Richard Jews and he agreed to stay and take the rap. He didn't wait 
for the raid, however, but took the cap and the only way they could pin the 

goods on him was by the needle mark and a drop of l)lood on his shoe. 

states that this happened the very day that he was arrested for receiving 
stolen goods, and that Jews was in the lock-up with him that night. This raid 
was in the 700 block of West Mulberry Street. 

3. also stated that Elmer Thomas had a connection with Sergeant 

Carroll. He was warned at one time but would not heed it. He was arrested 
and is at the house of correcticm road camp now. 

4. claimed that Big Harry, whose name he did not know, operated 

as if he had a license, and believes that Harry informed on him. Hap 

Johnson and Detective Butler, however, raided Harry and he got an 18-month 
sentence. 

5. also stated that a man known as Gold Tooth Jack was getting 

protection. 

did not know, or would not give, the names of these people. 

Bribenj 

6. alleged that in the early part of 1950, he was charged with theft 

and his house was raided, and literally cleaned out by Sergeant Carroll and his 
squad. ( Carroll was not a sergeant then but the same men were involved — Ser- 
geant Carroll, Officer Moniekski, and Officer Simonson.) — had a great 

quantity of clothes and goods in his house that could not readily be accounted 
for, and these were taken to the Northwest police station where he was also 
taken. At the time, he was found guilty of receiving stolen goods (two suits) 
and after IS days in jail was placed on probation. He states that after his 
release he went to see Sergeant Carroll but could not get his goods back. Ser- 
ge;int Carroll, however, told him that he could get anything back that he could 
produce receipts or bills of sale for, and that he should try to get these to- 
gether. He said that it was agreed that he should meet Sergeant Carroll at 
1 o'clock that day and he was there at the appointed time. He saw Officer 
M miewski who beckoned to him to walk up the street and then a car with 
Officer Moniewski and Sergeant Carroll on the front seat came by and he got 
in. They went up the avenue and Ser.geant Carroll asked, "Have you got 

them?" and said "Yes," and put $50 on the front seat. They went to 

the station house and Sergeant Carroll went in the captain's office and then 

called in. The captain said, "Carroll tells me you showed him the receipts 

so you can have your stuff." and Carroll rhen went back to the cells 

and in one of them his things were stored. Carroll only let him have part of 
the goods and kept about half of them. The rest he put in the car and took 
home. 

was interviewed at the Maryland House of Correction. June 29, 1951. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 231 

RESULT OK INVESTIGATION 

Frame-ups 

With reference to the claim that he was framed on the narcotics charge, 
raised by — — — , this matter has been carefully gone into previously by the 
.United States Bureau of Narcotics. One June 15, 1951, a letter was received by 

the United States attorney in Baltimore from , and Agent James S. 

Lanigan intervipwed . The report of the agent is set out herewith. 

"On this same date I visited the defendant. I told him that the United States 
Government could not handle the case, as the charges had already been placed 
against him in the State court. The defendant stated that he was being framed 
by Sergeant Carroll, Monenski, and Simonsen, due to the fact that they had 
a grudge against him in a prior case, he stated that the evidence in this case 
against him had been planted there by the officers. He was asked about the 
numerous State witnesses. He stated that some would testify in his behalf 
despite the fact that they had signed statements. He stated that Carroll and 
his crowd had framed numerous other onas including Gold Tooth Jack wlien they 
planted sonii^thing in his car. He stated that they had also framed Crip (Levi 
Acion). I t(ld the defendant, "Did he think I would frame anyone?" He said, 
"No." I told him well you make a mistake by saying that Carroll and his crowd 
had framed Crip. I told him that it was myself that found the has? with the 
large amount of heroin, and that I handed it to Carroll so that he as a police- 
man could open the bag. Agent Newkirk also was present, and found in the 
kitchen some narcotics which he turned over to Simonsen. The defendant 
backed water, and said, well he had only heard what the others said about Gold 
Tooth Jack and Crip. 

"Due to the fact that I know the police officers in this c^se, and also that 
they obtained statements from over five of the defendant's customers, that Ihey 
witnessed him go into the back yard and get the narcotics. I feel that the 
charges are unfounded, and recommend that this investigation be closed." 
Tip-offs 

With reference to the claim that police protection was granted narcotic law 

violators, — had previously raised this point in his testimony at Jessup. He 

stated that E mer Thomas ran a big skidge off Pennsylvania Avenue and, "When 
a friend of mine got locked up, I went to see Thomas because of his stand-in 
with these officers. " The committee questioned Thomas who is now in the Mary- 
land House of Correction on a narcotics charge. At the examination, he claimed 
that he was innocent of the charge, did not know what heroin was and while he 
had seen Sergeant Carroll, he did not know him or his men and had no knowledge 
of a deal of any kind. 

With reference to the story about "Buttercup," it was learned that his name 
is , and that he was arrested April 5, 1950, and given 1 year In the Mary- 
land House of Correction by Judge Manly. He was arrested by Detectives John- 
son and Butler. He had two caps of heroin on him when arrested. In 1946 be 
was given 3 years on a narcotics charge in the Federal court. 

Gold Tooth Jack was identified as — , and was arrested November 5, 1950, 

by Sergeant Carroll and given 9 months in the Maryland House of Correction. 
is an addict but this was his first conviction. 

Big Harry was identified as who was arrested by Lieutenent Germain, 

Sergeant Butler, and Detective Johnson at 1314 Pennsylvania Av.aiuie with a 

prostitute, who had 31 capsules of heroin on her. was sentenced to 18 

months in the Maryland Plouse of Correction. had previously been ar- 
rested but had not been convicted of narcotics violation. 

Bribery 

With reference to the March 1950 case of receiving stolen goods which 



told about, Officers Moniewski and Simonsen were interviewed. They denied 

that any money had ever been received by either of them or that goods 

belonging to him had been kept av/ay from him. They advised that at the time 

of the arrest in 1950 for receiving stolen goods, they had no idea that was 

involved in narcotics, hut th^y did know he was a fence. They advised that the 
goods were kept at the northwest police station from the time of arrest until 
after his release. 

Captain Feehley was interviewed at the northwest police station on July 2 
and he stated that was a liar and troublemaker and that he had threat- 
ened to get even with Sergeant Carroll at the time of the narcotic arrest. Captain 
Feehley produced the station house docket which showed that Richard Jews 



232 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

was arrested and held for investigation in narcotics at 11 : 10 j). m. on January 

4, 1950. He was listed as age 26 and was released at 8:10 p. ni. on January 

5, 1950. 

Directly below the record as to Richard Jews was the arrest record of 



-, 25, 671 Pierce Street, charged with larceny of two suits valued at $135 

a»nd ■ , same address, held for investigation. The charges were 

booked at 12 :15 p. m. January 4, 1950, and 5 p. m. January 5, 1950. 

was released and was held on .$500 liail for a further hearing and 

later committed for court. The arresting officers in the case of both 

and were Ofncers Carroll, Jafob Simonsou. Casmir 

Moniewski, and Kenneth Vaught. The same officers arrested Richard Jews. 

The (luestion of the storage of the property taken from was next taken 

up with Captain Feehley, and he advises that in some cases it is the policy to 
keep goods at the station so that persons wlio have had goods stolen from them 
might come into the station to identify their property. He stated that this 

was done with the pi-oi)erty taken from and that which could not be 

identified was held at the station. Captain Feehley then stated that the goods 

taken from were as far as he could remember clothing, etc., from which 

the labels had been removed. Captain Feehley did not have any receipt for the 
goods that were taken from and given back to . 

Chief Inspector Itzel of the Baltimore Police Department was interviewed, 
and be stated that the practice of keeping stolen goods, that had l)een recovered 
at the various police stations instead of in the property room downtown, was a 
standard practice in the department for years. He stated that while he was 
captain at the central district, he used to keep such articles locked up, and he 
kept the key. 

Sergeant Carroll was interviewed after his return to Baltimore on July 5, 
1951. He stated that he had seen the television broadcast and heard the state- 
ments made about him. He had seen the broadcast at Virginia Beach. 

He stated that the charges made by were false and malicious and that 

at the time of his arrest, had made many threats against him. He denied 

specifically ever having received any money from and stated further that 

the only time was ever in his car was when he was being arrested. 

He stilt' d that came to see him at the station house and that he took 

■ to the captain, who ordered that the goods which had been taken from • 

be retui-ned. Carroll took the key and went back to the cells and released the 

goods belonging to . He cannot recall that he got a receipt from for 

the goods. Sergeant Carroll also denied any attempt to frame — — ■ — or to 
protect any violators of the narcotic laws. 

All the officials interviewed expressed complete belief in the honesty and 
integrity of Sergeant Carroll and his squad. 

SUMM.\RY OF ALLEGATIONS AND FINDINGS 

charges that Sgt. J. F. Carroll of the Baltimore Police Department and 

his squad were protecting certain narcotic violators. He also alleged that he 
had to pay S'ergeant Carroll in order to get back certain of his prop- 
erty seized at the time of his arrest for receiving stolen goods. 

named one of the persons he claimed was getting protection at the time 

of the Senate Crime Committee's hearings at the Maryland House of Correction. 
Elmer Thomas, the prisoner whom he named, was forthwith questioned under 
oath and denied in toto the allegations. 

Later, after had appeared before the Senate Crime Committee at an 

open hearing, he gave the ni( knames (claiming not to know the real names) of 
three narcotics violators whom be said were receiving protection. It was possible, 
through the United States Narcotics Office at Baltimore, to trace the three men, 
"Big Harry," "Buttercup," and "Gold Tooth Jack." All three had been arrested 
l)y the Baltimore police for narcotic violations and all three sentenced by the 
court and given prison terms. "Gold Tooth Jack" had been arrested by Sergeant 
Carroll himself. 

It would seem obvious, therefore, that these men were not receiving protection 
of any kind. Indeed, a previous investigation made by the United States Nar- 
cotics Bureau at the request of the United States district attorney at Baltimore 

likewise disproved, with sworn statements of witnesses. allegations of 

having been framed. Furthermore, the court and the assistant states attorney 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 233 

of Baltimore made statements (now a part of the oflicial Senate Crime Committee 
records ) expressius complete faith in Sergeant Carroll. 

This leaves tlierefoie. only allegations of having had to pay Sergeant 

Carroll $.10 to" get back his property which had been seized in a raid. While it is 
a fact tliat some of the property was seized at the time of his conviction tor 

receiving stolen goods, there is no evidence (other than statement) that 

any money was paid for its return. All the officers vigorously deny the charge and 
since thei'r honesty and integrity has been vouched for by judges and others not 

connected with the police department, it seems conclusive that statement 

iis to this situation was like^\'ise unfounded. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



TUESDAY, JUNE 26, 1951 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee To Investigate OrCxAnized 

Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Washington., D. C . 

The special committee met, pursuant to call of the chairman at 10 : 10 
a. m., in room 318, Senate Office Building, Senator Herbert R. O'Conor 
(chairman) presiding. 

Present: Senators O'Conor, Kefauver, and Wiley. 

Also Present: Richard G. Moser, chief counsel; James M. Hep- 
bron, administrative assistant ; John P. Campbell, Roswell B. Perkins, 
and Wallace Reidt, assistant counsel. 

The Chairman. The hearing will come to order, please. 

At the outset of the hearing I should like to make the following 
statement : When the decision to continue the Senate Crime Investi- 
gating Committee beyond May 1 was reached, the consideration of 
the narcotics evil was given a high priority on the committee's agenda. 

The purpose of this open hearing is to consider some of the most 
serious aspects of the situation. To legislate intelligently, it becomes 
the duty of the committee to determine the extent of tlie drug prob- 
lem, to find out how much addiction has really increased, particu- 
larly with reference to juveniles and teen-agers, and to learn what 
sections of the country are finding it difficult to deal with the nar- 
cotics problem. 

Illegal drug use has reached epidemic proportions, according to 
information secured by this committee from different parts of the 
country. One of the most alarming aspects is the reported increase 
in addiction among the younger generation, some of school age. 

That such a state of affairs represents a real challenge is further 
emphasized by advices from the authorities to the effect that addic- 
tion is contagious. By this is meant that every confirmed narcotic 
user induces five or more additional users, sometimes members of his 
own famil3\ 

During the course of this hearing tlie committee expects to hear 
from medical experts who have been engaged in the treatment of 
addicts. These experts will be asked to define and to explain what 
is now being done to assist addicted persons, and what additional 
facilities are needed. 

We expect to obtain testimony also on the nature and effect of vari- 
ous drugs, with particular reference to the possible inclusion of addi- 
tional drugs not now covered by statute, as for example, the bar- 
biturates or sleepiug pills. 

235 



236 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The committee will also receive the testimony of addicts of various 
age groups from diiferent parts of the country, who will tell their 
own story of how they acquired the habit, how the drugs themselves 
are bought, and with what ease; the cost of the drugs; the great- 
rapidity with which tolerance to drugs is built up in the human 
system; and how the excessive cost of supporting the habit almost 
invariably leads to criminal activities, the type of crime usually 
committed, and so forth. 

We may also hear the testimony of a parent or parents of some of 
the young addicts, which testimony will point up the terrible dis- 
ruption of family life resulting from addiction among the younger 
elements. 

The committee will also delve into the means by which narcotics 
are smuggled into the country, the operational methods of illicit syn- 
dicates, how drugs are adulterated, and the general methods of dis- 
tribution. A comprehensive view of the activities currently being 
employed in various parts of the country to deal with the narcotics 
problem is also expected to be developed. 

The committee will also hear testimony containing specific recom- 
mendations for remedial legislation. 

Now, we are happy, of course, to have with us the senior Senator 
from Wisconsin, who has been so actively engaged and interested in 
the work of the committee, and, Senator Wiley, f wonder whether you 
would have a word to say at this time, sir^ 

Senator Wiley. Well, Mr, Chairman, I am concerned, of course, 
with this whole subject. 

The Federal (Tovernment is vitally concerned in that we are trying 
to preserve the lives of human beings. In the last World War there 
were something over a million of our youth who were unable to pass 
certain educational requirements to get into the services. Today we 
have this diabolical thing called the drug habit that is disintegrating 
the ranks of youth in this country. We have seen samples of it ; it is 
terrifically horrible. 

We trust that these hearings will l)ring into the consciousness of 
the enforcement officers of the States and the cities and the Nation the 
need for cutting at the root, the tap root, of this terrihc evil. 

We trust that these meetings will bring out the best judgment of the 
best minds we have as to how to cut that tap root so that this thing can 
dry up. We know that the drugs come from abroad. 

We expect that these meetings will bring public consciousness to such 
a focus that they will insist that these nations collaborate with us to 
the extent that these drugs do not come into this country; and we 
expect to see that our public officials on the national level see to it 
that they are not imported illegally. 

It is a terrific challenge to the health and the vitality of this Nation, 
gentlemen, and we believe that we are continuing the fine activities of 
the committee that was, under the leadership of Senator O'Conor, and 
that was evident to all of us under Senator Kefauver, 

The Chairman. Senator Wiley, we are obliged to you and, of course, 
as you have indicated, the great work of the Senator from Tennessee, 
Senator Estes Kefauver, is so well known, so generally accepted 
throughout the country, that it is unnecessary for me to emphasize 
it airain. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 237 

AVe are, of course, extremely hap])y to have Senator Kefauver in 
attendance with us today, and I woukl like to ask whether he at this 
time would have anything to say. 

Senator Wiley. 1 did not know he was there, or I would have said 
more about him. [Laughter.] 

Senator Kefauver. Mr. Chairman, I have not anything in particu- 
lar to say, except that 1 do want to congratulate t]ie chairman and the 
stall' on die thoroughness with which you have gone into this problem 
of narcotics, and I believe and feel tliat these hearings will be useful 
in bringing out the very sinister and devasting el!'ect of this traffic, 
and in helping us secure proper Federal laws to deal with the problem. 

I think it has been very encouraging since the beginning of this 
investigation that other agencies and organizations throughout the 
country have also been having hearings dealing with narcotics, so that 
there is a general interest, and I think very affirmative action, to get 
at this very sinister kind of business, which is doing so much harm to 
our country. 

I congratulate you, Mr. Chairman, upon working up such a good 
schedule for witnesses here today. That is all. 

The Chairman. Thank you. Senator Kefauver. 

The first witness will be Dr. Vogel. 

As in the case of all witnesses. Doctor, I am asking you to be sworn, 
and I am sure you have no objection. In the presence of the Almighty 
God, do you swear that the testimony you give in this hearing shall 
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 

Dr. VooEE. I do. ■ 

The (^H airman. Thank you. 

Now, Doctor, before the questions are propounded by our able coun- 
sel, Mr. Richard Moser, might I ask that you be good enough to keep 
your voice up throughout the examination so that all may hear. 

First of all, your full name. 

TESTIMONY OF DR. VICTOR H. VOGEL, MEDICAL OFFICER IN 
CHARGE, UNITED STATES PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE HOSPITAL, 
LEXINGTON, KY. 

Dr. VoGEE. Dr. Victor H. Vogel. 

The Chairman. V-o-g-e-1? And your present post is? 

Dr. VoGEE. Medical officer in charge. United States Public Health 
Service Hospital, Lexington, Ky. 

The Chairman. Doctor, for what period of time have you been 
there ? 

Dr. VoGEE. I have been in that capacity for 41/2 years ; I have had 
two previous assignments at the Lexington Hospital. 

The Chairman. Over w^hat period have you been engaged in this 
particular work? 

Dr. Vogel. Altogether about 8 years? 

The Chairman. About 8 years? All right. 

Mr. Moser, will you kindly j^roceed. 

Mr. Moser. Good morning, Dr. Vogel. 

Dr. Vogel. Good morning. 

Senator Wiley. The top of the morning. Doctor. You recognize 
me, too ? 

85277— .51— pt. 14 16 



238 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Dr. VoGEL. I do, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vofi^el, we have asked yon to prepare some statistics 
I'egarding the number of addicts that you have in your institution at 
Lexington, Ky., and I understand that you have prepared that in the 
form of charts. 

I wonder if, before doing that, you would tell us approximately and 
roughly what type of institution it is; what its general purpose is, 
and how many people you have there. 

D •. VoGEL. Yes, Mr. Moser. The Public Health Service Hospital 
at Lexington was o];)ened in 1935, as a result, I would say, of two 
forces who recognized the need for a special hospital for the treatment 
of narcotic addicts. 

One such force was that the Public Health Service a few years before 
that date had taken over the supervision, the organization of the 
medical services in the Federal penitentiaries, all Federal institutions. 
Our officers there realized that addicts represented a special problem, 
and at least in some of the cases the emphasis should be on treatment 
as well as on penal treatment. 

At the same time, the Committee on Drug Addiction of the National 
Ilesearch Council had been studying the problem, and had made recom- 
i^endations that special institutions were needed. So the Lexington 
Hospital was opened in 1935, and the Fort Worth Hospital, also oper- 
atef] bv the Public Health Service, in 1938. 

The law provided, if we had beds available after prisoners were 
cared for, that voluntary patients also should be treated ; so, over the 
years in the two hospitals we have had about 38,000 admissions of 
addicts for treatment. 

To b3gin with, they were about 80-percent Federal prisoners and 
probationers, and 20-percent volunteers. As time has gone on, that 
ratio has almost been reversed, so that now almost 80 percent of our 
admissions are voluntary patients, and a little more than 20 percent 
prisoners and probationers. 

Mr. MosER. Every patient that you have at the hospital is a narcotic 
addict; is that correct? 

Dr. VoGEL. There is a slight exception to that. We have about 150 
nonaddict mental patients that we keep who are also beneficiaries of 
the Public Health Service. Their presence is necessary for us to be 
approved for the training of psychiatric residents. 

The Fort Worth Hospital, during the last war, was not needed for 
the cai-e of addicts, so it was entirely, almost entirely, diverted to 
other types of patients. But that is in the process of a transition 
period, and taking fewer and fewer of the nonaddict patients, and 
more and more of the addict patients as the demand for the treatment 
increases. 

Mr. MosER. So the institution at Fort Worth supplements the one 
that you have at Lexington ; is that correct? 

Dr. VoGEL. That is correct. , 

Mr. MosER. Now, will you turn to the charts that you have prepared, 
Dr. Vogel, and explain to us what information they portray. 

Dr. VoGEL. Shall I explain them from here ? 

The Chairman. I would suggest. Doctor, if you could, that you just 
remain in your seat so that your testimony can be heard over the 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 239 

amplifiers. Mr. Wallace Reidt is over there, and I am sure that he 
can handle the charts, as you desire. 

Dr. VoGEL. I should say concerning the facilities at the Lexing- 
ton and Fort Worth Hospitals, that the capacity of the Lexington 
Hospital is about 1,300 and that at Fort Worth about 1.000. 

At the present time we have about 1,200 addict patients at Lexing- 
ton and about 250 addict patients as Fort Worth. 

As I have said, the arrangement at Fort Worth is elastic so that 
more beds may be made available to meet the need. At the present 
time, however, we have at least 100 beds available at Lexington for 
addicts, and Fort Worth has about an equal number. 

There has never been a time when the Public Health Service hos- 
pitals have not been able to admit promptly male applicants for first- 
time treatment. And there have been times wdien we had to put 
recidivist male applicants on a waiting list in order to take first-time 
promptly, but at the moment we are able to take all males, all male 
patients promptly. LTnfortunately, our facilities for the treatment 
of women have always been cramped, since the w^omen's building 
was opened in Lexington in 1940, and there is at all times a waiting 
list for women patients. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, the first chart that you have, will you explain 
what it portrays? 

Dr. Vogel. The first chart is a line graph showing the total addicted 
admissions at the Lexington and Fort Worth hospitals combined. 
The line starts on the left, of course, in 1935, and the Lexington 
Hospital was then opened ; in other words, it starts at zero there. 

You can see that, in general, the line has gone upward. One should 
not conclude from that, however, that the over-all incidence of nar- 
cotic addiction has been upward over the years. As a matter of 
fact, Mr. Anslinger, commissioner of narcotics, in his last annual 
report reported that the over-all trend in addiction in the over-all 
population has been downward, at least until this rather recent 
incident or epidemic of teen-age addiction. 

So the fact that the curve has gone upwards probably represents 
that more and more patients have been made familiar with the facil- 
ities available and, therefore, have sought treatment. It is not safe 
to conclude that the over-all treiids of addiction have been upward 
because our line upward 

Mr. MosER. Also the population has increased at the same time. 

Dr. Vogel. That is right, possibly. 

Mr. Moser. All right. What is the next chart ? 

Dr. Vogel. I would like to say a little bit more about this, if I could. 

Mr. Moser. I am sorry. 

Dr. Vogel. You see, during the years 1944 to 1946 and 1947 a 
decrease, w^hich is experienced usually during wars when strict con- 
trol by the Government of the foreign shipping occurs, w^ith con- 
sequent diminished facilities for the importation of contraband nar- 
cotics; also a large segment of the addiction-prone population is in 
the Armed Forces, so we had a decrease during the war. 

After the war there was an increase, which did not alarm us par- 
ticularly because we expect a little compensatory increase. But you 
can see that from 1949 there was S, rather sharp upward swing. 



240 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, before you leave the war years, is it correct 
to state tliat when the supply is cut down by the lack of shippino; that 
the number of addicts automatically o;oes down ? Is that correct ? 

Dr. Vo(iEL. If for any factor the availability of narcotic drugs 
becomes less, then addiction becomes less. 

Mr. MosER. Then you would say, perhaps, that the fii'st place 
to hit this ju'oblem is perhaps at the place the narcotics comes from. 

Dr. VotJEL ]iat is correct. Addiction arises from two forces: One 
the drug itseli' and its availability and, second, the person who for one 
reason or another wants to take the drug. If you eliminate either you 
eliminate the problem. If you work at both of them, why, you get 
results faster. 

Senator Wiley. Of course, those statistics there simply show the 
institutional statistics. 

Dr. Vogel. That is correct, sir. 

Senator Wiley. It does not give yon the over-all statistics in the 
country. 

Dr. Vogel. That is correct, sir. 

You see, this graph ends with a broken dotted line. That is a pro- 
jection of the first 5 months" experience at the hospitals over the rest 
of the year, vrhich may or may not be a valid conclusion. But if the 
first 5 months" experience holds true, then the number of total admis- 
sions for this year will be slightly less than for last year. 

Now, if you can see the next chart, please. 

The Chairman. Doctor, just before you leave that chart, yon did 
say in the recent past there had been a noticeable increase in teen-age 
addiction which, I think, you also described as epidemic. 

Dr. Vogel. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. When was that observed? 

Dr. Vogel. I think we can see that graphically on the next chart. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Dr. Vogel. That is the wrong chart. 

This shows the experience at the Lexington and Fort Worth hos- 
pitals on the admission of addicts under 21. As you can see, the figures 
along from 198.5 up to 1947 are small and inconsequential. In 1948 
there was a jump to 52 admissions over 22 the previous year. 

Then in 1949 we find a very decided increase in the demands of teen- 
agers for treatment. It jumps 210, I believe. Then in 1950 it really 
jumps to 440. 

Here again, in 1951 the figure is a projection of the first 5 months' 
experience. If they come in the rest of the year at the rate they have 
heretofore this year the number of teen-agers applying for treatment 
at Lexington and Fort Worth will be 388, a slight decrease. 

The impact of this increase in youngsters has had the result of de- 
creasing the average age of our patients at Lexington from 37 to 26 
as the average age of the entire addict population. 

Mr. Moser. Dr. Vogel, you referred to these addicts as teen-agers. 
Would you tell us about what ages you are talking about ? Do most of 
them fall in one particular age area? 

Dr. Vogel. Mr. Moser, if we may see the remaining graph, that 
will be shown graphically also. 

In the upper right-hand corner'we see some bar diagrams which 
indicate the distribution among the ages under 21. You can see that 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 241 

there is an equal number of 20 years of age, and of those 18 years of age, 
4:7 of eacli in the two hospitals on June 7, 1951. 

The other charts referred to admissions over the years. This re- 
fers to the teen-age population in the hospitals on June 7, so it is not, 
as one might expect, the great majority of them just mider 21 but an 
equally large number who are 18, as those who are 20; and 19 is next, 
and then mucli fewer, and 17 and 16. 

We have had, perhaps, six patients as young as 15 and 14, and at 
least one patient oiily 13, but they were not in the hospital at the time 
this graph was made. 

The division between boys and girls is shown here as on this date 
of 158 teen-agers, 19 were girls and 139 were boys. 

Tliis may not be a good indication of the ratio on the outside because 
we have luul a waiting lisr for girls, whereas we have not had a wait- 
ing list — we have had no waiting list for boys. 

By residents, this epidemic seems to be so far raging in large cities, 
particularly New York, Chicago, and to a lesser extent, Washington. 

Of the 158, 86 or more than half, were from New York; 24 were 
from Chicago, 15 from Washington, and 32 others scattered among 
large cities. By race the chart shows that 120 were Negro, and 38 
were white. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, as I understand it, our present narcotics laws 
or Federal laws, do not cover the field of sleeping pills or barbiturates. 
If barbiturates were inclufled, and addicts from those drugs were also 
covered, can you give us an estimate as to whether your present facili- 
ties would be sufficient to take care of it ? 

Dr. Vogel. Well, I ca)i certainly say that our present facilities 
would be inadequate, and judging from what I see and hear from my 
medical colleagues and enforcement officers, it would take institutions 
at least several times the capacity of those now existing to handle 
this type of addict. 

Of course, they are not eligible for treatment, but many narcotic 
addicts, that is, those who take mor])hine and heroin, and tlie drugs 
which do make them eligible, will go to the barbiturates when they 
cannot get the drug of choice ; and so we frequently get addicts who 
have been using both. 

Hardly a day passes at Lexington and Fort Worth when we do 
not have to turn away several barbiturate addicts who are seeking 
treatment but who are not eligible. I think that the barbiturate 
]^roblem is a very great public health problem, and probably exceeds 
that by addiction to these other drugs, because there are a much larger 
number of people who are involved and the relative ease with which 
they can be })rocured, not being under Federal control but under State 
control Avhich, in many areas is thus far inadequate. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, in your institution, of course, you have seg- 
regation between the men and the women. Do you have any segre- 
gation between age groups or are the old ones thrown in with the 
young ones ? 

Dr. VoGEL. Unfortunately at the present time, even though we have 
beds available, we are operating over normal ca[)acity, and segrega- 
tion by age at this time is not possible. We do have certain internal 
remodeling and arrangements which will be under contract for ac- 
complishment wntliin a few days, and within 45 days we hope it will 



'242 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

be possible to segregate approximately 70 of the teen-age males who 
are selected for that purpose. 

Mr. MosER. Do you find that it is dangerous to have young addicts 
hi with the older ones ? 

Dr. VoGFX. Well, it is not physically dangerous, but it is un- 
foitunate in that the young naive addict may learn a great deal from 
the older, more sophisticated addict about the use of drugs and pos- 
sible procurement of drugs. That association and that increased 
knowledge may not necessarily be bad, although I am sure it is, in 
some cases. When I say it is not necessarily bad, I think some of the 
youngsters can appreciate by seeing the results of old chronic addic- 
tion something that they do not wish to copy any further, and the 
therapy of the horrible example, as we refer to it, may operate to ad- 
vantage in some cases. 

Mr. MosER. You have some patients who are informers, that is, they 
have informed State or Government authorities of crimes committed 
by other addicts, is that correct ? 

Dr. VoGEL. We have one sej^arate doimitory where approximately 
25 patients are housed, who have been identified by other patients 
as those who have informed against other addicts and have co- 
operated with the law-enforcement officers. It is not safe for them 
to associate with the general po{)ulation. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, you have some addicts who are there as 
volunteers and some who are there as prisoners. What percentage 
of the ones in your institution are there as prisoners? 

Dr. VoGEL. Of those in the population at the present time approxi- 
mately 50 percent are volunteers and 60 percent are prisoners and 
probationers. 

If this seems to contradict what I just said about 80 percent being 
volunteers and 20 percent prisoners or probationers, the first time 
I referred to it, I referred to admissions. 

The popul;;(ion at any one time is about 50-50; the difference, 
the discrepancy, between the population at one time and the admission 
rate is due to the fact that the voluntary patients stay on the average, 
a shorter length of time. 

Mr. MosER. How long do you have a voluntary patient stay there 
when he is there for treatment only? 

Dr. Vogel. If a voluntary patient cooperates with us in treat- 
ment he stays a minimum of four-aiid-a-half months. 

Mr. MosER. Do you have many patients who come back for re- 
peated treatments, either as prisoners or as volunteers? 

Dr. Vogel. Of all the patients who have been treated at the Lex- 
ington Hospital, and that numbers about 19,000 now, and speaking 
of individuals not admissions, (50 percent have been treated once 
only ; 40 percent have been treated more than once. 

Mr. MosER. So 40 percent have come back ; is that correct ? 

Dr. Vogel. That is correct. 

Mr. MosER. Do you have an arrangement under which a patient 
can come there under a \oluntary connniiiuent, whicli is such that he 
cannot leave until liis treatment is over? What is the nature of that; 
Avhat do you call it ? 

Dr. Vogel. lou are referring, Mr. Moser, to the so-called "blue 
grass" procedure. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 243 

JVlr. MosER. That is correct. 

Dr. VoGEL. And 1 will be glad to explain that. 

As I said, the law provides for the care of prisoners and proba- 
tioners sentenced by Federal courts, and also volunteers. 

Originally, voluntary patients, as part of their application, signed 
an affidavit or a staten'ient which gave us authority to keep them as 
long as we thought they needed treatment, but on a test case about 
(^ months after the hospital opened, that was declared in the local 
Federal court as unconstitutional; that if a man voluntarily came 
in he could voluntarily change his mind and demand his release. 

Since that time, many voluntary patients get sick; they cannot 
voluntarily stay for complete treatment, and they ask for their re- 
lease, and get out. If they do go out against advice, then they will 
not be readmitted the next time unless they go through the "blue 
grass" procedure which gives us the authority to complete treatment 
against their own Avishes if they change their minds. 

Now, this "blue grass" procedure involves the use of a State law 
in Kentucky which makes it a misdemeanor to be an addict. 

If, therefore, we refuse admission to the recidivist applicant, he 
may then go downtown, plead guilty to being aM addict under the 
Kentucky law, receive the 12 months' workhouse sentence, which 
is then probated on condition that he come to the hospital voluntarily 
and remain until we think he is ready to go. It is a rather involved 
device, but it does operate to the good of the patient and, of course, 
it prevents the hospital squandering public money in giving abortive 
treatments. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, you have used the word "recidivist." I 
happen, by chance, to know what it means, but that is just luck. It 
means a patient or a prisoner who has come back more than once. 

Dr. VoGEL. It means a repeater. If you are referring to offenses 
it means a repeater. In the case of addicts and treatment, it refers 
to a relapse and need for further treatment. 

I should say, Mr. Moser, that there is at present before the Con- 
gress a bill which would permit the hospitals to accept a third type 
of patient, that is, in addition to Federal prisoners and voluntaries, 
patients who may be committed there by due process of law in the 
various State courts without resorting to this "blue grass" device. 
This would materially assist us in treating addict patients. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, after a patient leaves your hospital do you 
have any way of following him up and finding out what happens to 
him or whether he is likely to come back again '{ 

Dr. VoGEL. Only a very, very inadequate follow-up system. We 
liave hopes that within the next few months funds will be found to 
inaugurate a statistical and follow-up system so that we may know 
more accurately Avhat happens to our patients, and so that we may 
adjust our treatment in tlie light of our experience in order to achieve 
better results. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, in our study so far we have heard a good 
deal of discussion about the nature of these teen-age addicts. Some 
people say that they are mere hoodlums who have taken up addiction. 
Others say that they become addicts and then they turn to crime be- 
cause they need the money for their addiction. 

Would you like to express your view on that? 



244 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Dr. VoGEL. Well, I can express my view, based on the ])atients we 
see at the hospitals. Now, of course, these may not represent neces- 
sarily the picture of teen-agers, as they exist in the oreneral po})iilation 
because in many cases somewhere alono- tlie line someone has decided 
that the patients seut to Lexinirton are especially suitable for rehabili- 
tation, so it may be that my conclusions, based on our patients, may 
not apply to those as they exist in the general communitv. 

But as I see them at the Lexington Hospital, 80 percent approxi- 
mately of our teen-age patients have no record of juvenile delinquency 
prior to the time they became addicts. Since they became addicts 
they have engaged in many types of crime in order to get the $10 to 
$20^ a day necessary to buy the drugs to support their habits, to keep 
them from getting sick from withdrawal. 

Mr. MoSEK. Dr. Vogel, we have also considered the question of 
whether educational programs designed to reach the young ])eople 
would have the etfect of causing them to refrain from using drugs. 
Would you like to express your views on that ? 

Dr. Vogel. Again I refer to my experience at Lexington. I have 
talked to a number of these boys and girls who have tokl me that they 
had no idea that the continued use of heroin would result in a physical 
dependence, followed by severe withdrawal illness if they hacl to stop 
taking the drugs. In other words, they did not ap])reciate the true 
nature of narcotic addiction, and felt they could stop or start taking 
narcotic drugs as they wished. This they had concluded, in part at 
least, from their experience with marijuana, because almost invariably 
these teenagers started by smoking marijuana and then by subse- 
quently changing to experimenting with heroin and although mari- 
juana is a harmful drug, it does not cause physical dependence; in 
other words, they do not become ill when they stop taking it. So, 
when these boys and girls start taking heroin they tind that they are 
"hooked," as the expression goes, and they tind they must get it by 
any means in order to keep on going. 

So, I must conclude that at least some of these boys and girls, if 
they had knowui about the true nature of narcotic addiction would 
not have gone on with their experimentation. Then, too, of course, 
my background is that of public health, of being a public health 
service officer, and I look on narcotic addiction as sort of an infectious 
disease. 

Of course, it is one, as I have said, which over the years has been 
gradually decreasing, and there was no particular need for a public 
information campaign as long as it was well under control. But now 
we are faced with an epidenuc among a certain age group, and in 
particular cities, and it seems to me as if a ])ublic relations })rogram, 
specifically including sensible infonnation in the high school con- 
cerning the nature of drug addiction, would be helpful and could 
only result in a decrease; as some of you may have read recently, in 
trying to decide this problem of education versus no education in the 
New York City schools, in one school teen-agers were asked to write 
what they knew about drug addiction and it was found that at least 
in that school, in one of these epidemic areas, the teen-agers knew a 
great deal about drug addiction and it was decided that it was certainly 
in order to substitute authentic information for some of the irrespon- 
sible information that they had received. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 245 

I continue to tliink of what lias happened in the past in campaigns 
against other types of public disorders, public health problems. I 
think particularly of the venereal disease problem. 

In the early IDoO's when Dr. Thomas Parran became Surgeon Gen- 
eral it was not possible to use the words "venereal disease," or mention 
one of them by name in a public address, in a newspaper or in a mag- 
azine article: and, in the course of that campaign against venereal 
diseases, public information programs became very general. The 
public attitude was changed in that regard. 

There were those at that time wdio said that information to the 
public concerning venereal diseases will result in increased promis- 
cuity among youngsters and, therefore, increase the venereal-disease 
rate. But that did not happen, and I can't think that it would haj^pen 
in this case. 

I am sure there would be some individuals of psychopathic nature, 
or some who, feeble-minded, might have their curiosity aroused, but 
for the most part public information campaigns would result in more 
good than bad. 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Vogel, I would like to ask you just one more ques- 
tion. You referred to addiction as a contagious disease. We have 
heard it said that one addict makes five more. Would you like to 
express your views on that ^ 

Dr. VoGEL. I can't give any views as to that ratio, but I can say 
from the ])atients seen, both the older groups and the youngster 
patients, that almost invariably in their histories they say they started 
to use drugs from association with other addicts, so the treatment 
of the addicts is important for two reasons: One, because he is sick 
and needs treatment; the other, to remove a source of infection from 
othei's, from the community. 

The Chairman. Dr. Vogel, you did make mention of the fact that 
among the ])atients at Lexington were children of the age of 15 and 
16, 14, and I did understand you to say one as young as 13. Had they 
reached the status of addicts in any cases ? 

Dr. VoGEL. Yes. In all cases received into the hospital, the med- 
ical opinion had to be arrived at that they were bona fide addicts or 
they would not have been admitted. 

The Chairman. You also stated that the history of many cases 
indicates that their turning to crime was following their addiction, 
and you were brought to the conclusion that it resulted from their need 
of the money with wdiich to purchase the narcotics, is that correct? 

Dr. VoGEL. Keferring to the cases we see at Lexington, that is 
correct. 

The Chairman. And yon did say that it is necessary for them in 
order to continue, to get, in some' cases. l)etween $10 and $20 a day. 
Have you had cases where it has exceeded $20 a day ? 

Dr. VoGEL. I don't recall any individual who gave a history of 
requiring more than $20 a day. However, particularly with tliose 
using cocaine, they will spend as much as they can get and take it 
in whatever quantities they can procure it. 

The Chairman. Nom, Doctor, in response to questions as to the 
possible eti'ects of greater educational programs, you indicated that, 
of course, in certain psychopathic cases it might lead to an individual's 
attempting to find out just Avhat the reaction is. 



246 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Would you not feel, however, that the greater good would more than 
balance, overbalance, the individual cases of that kind I 

Dr. VoGEL, Yes. I feel that in a sensible, nonsensational educa- 
tional program — and I do not refer to much of the irresponsible sensa- 
tion writing that has been appearing in periodicals recently, but if 
well arranged, particularly if worked into the curriculum of existing 
courses in high schools, and not made a special issue of, that the 
over-all result would be beneficial. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Wliat I was leading up to, and you have just indicated your opinion 
about it, is, as to the possibility of follow-uy) work in certain areas, 
and with particular reference to the teen-agers, whether you would 
feel that with a group of psychiatric workers or social workers, case 
workers, that beneficial results could be obtained. 

Dr. VoGEL. Extremely important not only statistically for our in- 
formation but to increase the treatment result, there is no other single 
factor as impoitant in treatment failure as in the lack of interested 
community individuals or agencies in seeing that these people get 
along well and have some assistance in readjusting after they go back 
to their home community. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. Dr. Vogel. 

Senator Kef auver ? 

Senator Kefauver. Mr. Chairman, my questions relate to the ade- 
quacy of the facilities which the Public Health Service has. Were you 
intending to cover that with another witness ? 

The Chairman. I think, Senator Kefauver, Dr. Vogel could give us 
very important information on that if you would be good enough to 
pursue that line of questioning, and I would be glad to have you do so. 

Senator Kefauver. Dr. Vogel, I had understood that you needed 
greatly increased facilities to handle the number of patients that you 
had for treatment, is that true? 

Dr. Vogel. There is a peculiar discrepancy, and not altogether 
clear to me as to what it should be, between the fact that we have 
always been able to take first-time male applicants at Lexington, and 
the press reports of thousands and thousands of teen-agers in New 
York and Chicago, particularly, who need treatment but are unable 
to get it. 

I cannot explain that discrepancy. We are certainly overcrowded 
now, and we do need segregated facilities for the treatment of teen- 
agers, and we do need, addition in our women's building to eliminate 
that waiting list. We recognize that, perliaps, the distance of Lex- 
ington and Fort Worth from New York and Chicago results in a 
decrease of applicants who really need treatment. We recognize, too, 
that false information has gotten around that we were full and unable 
to take patients and, of course, many of these young addicts, they 
become involved with the law, and instead of being referred to Lex- 
ington or Fort Worth for treatment they are sentenced to local jails, 
where they receive whatever treatment they receive. 

Judged by the demand on the Lexington and Fort Worth hospitals, 
we do not need a great expansion in facilities, but merely need a dif- 
ferent arrangement of our facilities to do a better job. 

Senator Kefauver. Well, it has been said or advocated in many 
places by responsible people that the availability of your facilities 



ORGANIZED CRUVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 247 

should be ex])lained to the juvenile judges and correctional officers 
throughout the United States, and if that were done that you would 
need expanded facilities, and that, of course, would mean they would 
receive very nuich better treatment and have a better chance of re- 
cuperation than they do in the jails or institutions where they may be 
sent in tlie various States. 

Dr. YoGEL. It certainly is true that if any substantial proportion of 
all the cases being processed in local courts were referred to us, we 
Avould be overwhelmed. But until our present facilities are saturated, 
I don't see how we can conclude that we must immediately begin to 
plan for a large expansion. 

Senator IvEFAtrv'ER. Has Congress generally given you the appro- 
priations that you needed for the carrying out of your program and 
for the facilities that you recommended, or do you know about that? 

Dr. VooEL. Well, I know that from year to year we make certain 
I'econnnendations for the expansion of our stall' and facilities to do a 
better job with our patients, and that the full funds necessary to do 
the best job possible have not been forthcoming. 

Senator Kefaitver. It has been either cut by the Bureau of the 
Budget or may be trimmed to some extent by Congress in its Appro- 
priations Committees, is that correct? 

Dr. VooEL. Somewhere along the line; yes, sir. 

Of course, the appropriations for the Lexington and Fort Worth 
Iiospitals are combined with those for all of the 25 or so Public Health 
Service hospitals and our own headquarters, and others who consider 
our budget request nnist consider the over-all needs of the hospitals 
as to where the available funds are needed worst. 

Senator Kefaiwer. Well, we members of the committee know some< 
thing about the very splendid work that you are doing at Lexingto:-i, 
and also in Texas, and I have a feeling that if the matf^er were pre- 
sented fully to the Appropriations Committees of the Congress, and 
•Congress itself, that you would get the funds that you could show 
were justified 

I think that would be particularly true in view of the increased 
knowledge of the importance of your work that has been brought to 
the public's attention over the past year. 

Xow, Dr. Vogel, is it not true that a large part of the increase in the 
mnnber of patients at Lexington is due to the fact that the parents of 
these victims and young addicts now recognize, in the first place, the 
horror and the ruinous influence of narcotics, and also the necessity 
for seeing that they get some kind of treatment ; and that the parents 
are responsible for a larger number of children and teen-agers being 
sent to Lexington ? 

Dr. VooEL. That is true. 

Senator Kefauver. That is what I am pointing out, wdiich is that 
the large increase in the number of teen-age patients cloes not reflect 
accurately the increase in the number of teen-age victims? 

As I remember the figures they show that between 1940 and 1950 
the nmnber of addicts in a certain age group between 17 and 21 is 
raised about 1 or II/2 percent, and in the next age group it may be 
raised or increased a little larger percent ; but if you go by the chart 
you have, you might have, and you would get the impression that it 
has trebled and doubled, and it is very much greater than those per- 



248 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

centages; and I tliought this was probably due to the fact that your 
facilities were becoming known to the parents, and to the juvenile 
judges in the country, and that the intelligence and information they 
have had about the benefit of treatment at the Lexington Hospital 
was becoming better known throughout the Nation and, therefore, 
they were more anxious to send unfortunate children to the hospital. 

Dr. Vo(iKL. That is true. Senator. Of course, anyone who gets to 
the Lexington Hospital gets there as the result of the deliberate and 
definite effort on someone's part to get them there for treatment. 
Someone has to write and get an application ; someone has to help him 
fill it out ; someone has to help him pay his way there, and it is only 
those who have someone interested in them and help them to do that 
who reach Lexington, 

We will pay their way home if they stay for complete treatment, but 
someone has to pay their way tliere to get them there. The figures you 
mentioned 

Senator Kefauver. Why do you pay their way back when you do 
not pay their way there? 

Dr. VoGEL. It is the law. 

Senator Kefattver. It is the law ? 

Dr. VooEL. And it was only a year or so ago that the regulations 
allowed us to pay their way home after completing treatment in the 
case of volunteers, although we did it for prisoners and probationers. 

Senatcjr Kefauver. In the case of voluntary patients, is there a 
charge for staying at the hospital ? 

Dr. VoGEL. If they can afford to pay, $5 a day; if not, they pay 
nothing, and there is no discrimination in their treatment. Ninety- 
five percent of our voluntary patients are unable to pay. 

Senator Kefattver. Do you not feel that the same service should 
be available to all patients, particularly teen-agers, regardless of what 
their financial condition may be; that is, that you should not require 
them to ])ay their own way there, and you should not require that 
they have someone to be interested in them, to try to see that they get 
in. It seems to me that the services ought to be made known all over 
the country, and that all children should have the same opportunities 
for getting treatment. 

Dr. VoGEL. Well, I don't quite follow you. I think they do all 
have the same opi)ortunity. We have to require an application blank 
ahead of time and not encourage them to come direct, else there would 
be large numbers who would not be eligible who would come to Lex- 
ington and be stranded. 

The same reasoning applies that would ])revent us from sending ad- 
vance fai'e to persons who had not been determined finally to be bona 
fide addicts, eligible for treatment. The financial investigation is not 
such that it delays the admission of any api^licant. 

Senator Kefauver. You mean you accept them and then determine 
later Avhether they can pay anything or not? 

Dr. VoGEL. Yes, sir; that is correct. 

Senator Kefauver. Doctor, can you give us an idea of the per- 
centage of cures that you have in teen-agers who come to Lexington? 

Dr. VoGEL. This has been so recent that we cannot; also because we 
1 ave no adequate follow-up studies, as has been shown, we cannot. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 249 

I can ^ive you this fio:ure : 10 percent of our teen-ao;ers now bein<>: 
admitted liave been treated before. This corresponds with, as I have 
said, 40 percent of the okler admissions who have been treated be- 
fore. Tliat is a partial answer to your question. Ten percent of our 
present teen-ao^ers have been treated before, and 40 percent of the okler 
patients have been treated before. 

Senator Kefauver. Would it not be well to have some method of 
followinfj up what happens to the patient that you have ^ 

Dr. VoGEL. It is a need which we recognize, and for which we have 
definite plans. We have hopes that funds will be available within 
tlie next 2 or 3 months to inaugurate such a follow-up system. It will 
probably involve not only a statistical unit in our own hospital but 
will involve a team being stationed actually in New York or Chicago 
or both, depending on the money we get, to do a personal case woik 
follow-up study on cases going back to those two cities. 

Senator Kefauver. Doctor, will you state for the record and give us 
some information about the working arrangements you have with the 
narcotics departments of the various States, of the institutions that 
some of the States have. I believe only a few of the States have institu- 
tions of their own for particular treatment of narcotics. 

Mr. Chairman, is this going to be gone into by other witnesses ? 

The Chairman. I think this one phase of it probably would be better 
developed by another witness, if it is agreeable to you. 

Senator Kefauver. Very well. I withdraw the question. That is 
all, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Kefauver, very much, 

Ssnator Wiley? 

Senator Wiley. Doctor, I am glad to see you again. I remember 
with what profit I listened to your wisdom down at Lexington, and 
when I saw the wrecks down there, I realized that we were facing a 
pollution of our national bloodstream by the drug peddlers, and I 
made up my mind that I wanted to know what the remedy was. 

Now, a lot of these questions have been directed to your medical 
basis. Let us hold a clinic with respect to the situation as we see it 
throughout America. 

You told about these youngsters now that, up to date at least, 10 
percent of them have had treatment before. That means that you are 
not in a position to say that when a youngster becomes a doj^e addict 
whether there is any possibility of permanent cure. 

Dr. Vogel. I can say that there is always a possibility, I have a 
whole drawer full of letters and communications from previous 
patients who have been out 5 to 10 to 15 years who are getting along 
very well. But statistically that drawer full of letters is not valid. 

I know that many patients, when taken off drugs, remain off drugs 
indefinitely. Of course, usually those include the more or less normal 
jiersons, without particular emotional and personality jiroblems, who 
do not find the same drive to relax by the use of drugs that the unstable 
person or the inadequate personality does. 

Senator Wiley. Well, let us see now% one who becomes a dope addict, 
taking heroin, morphine, that has a tendency, if I understand it, to 
ruin him physically, affect his mental processes, does it not? 

Dr. Vogel. Yes; that is right. It is not so much the s]3ecific effect 
of the drug in bringing out deterioration of the brain tissue as it is 



250 ORGANIZED CRIxME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

the psycliological eilect of the changin<5 of a normal person, from one 
with ambition and drive, to one who is content with his lot; who is 
content to sit around and not take his productive place in the world, 
together witli the fact that he must lead a life of subversive activity, 
of contact with criminals, in an effort to maintain his supply of drugs. 
The urgency is so great for his drugs that he neglects everything else 
in the normal economy of the individual. He sleeps in the park in- 
stead of und. r a roof to save his money ; he neglects dental prophylaxis 
and dental prevention, and so his teeth become very bad. 

He does not buy food, but spends his money instead for drugs ; so 
the sum total of that type of existence means that he does deteriorate 
mentally and physically. 

Senator Wiley. All right. 

Then, if he does not get the drug, you say that he gets sick. Now, 
what about that suffering^ He has to have the drug or he doesn't — 
what happens then ? 

Dr. VoGEL. If he doesn't get the drug then, as you say, he becomes 
very ill if he has been taking substantial amounts regularly. If he is 
in normal physical condition he does not die usually, but he feels so^ 
sick that he wishes he could, and if he is feeble from some other con- 
dition, he may actually die. He has intense nausea and vomiting and 
muscular aches, cramps, and great loss of weight, and excessive sweat- 
ing and lack of appetite, and he is a very miserably sick person. 

Senator Wiley. What I want to bring out, so that there is no ques- 
tion about it, is that if he does not get the drug, then the result is 
terrific physical and mental suffering for the patient. 

Dr. VoGEL. That is correct. 

Senator Wiley. All right. 

Now, then, let us go back to this clinic proposition. You made the 
statement that in some of the larger communities of this country that 
marijuana and heroin, that habit among our youngsters has become 
very serious. Why do you limit it just to the larger communities? 

Dr. VoGEL. Well, I am basing my statements on the conclusions 
from the patients we see at Lexington, and we have been speaking 
particidarly of the teen-agers and, as you can see from the chart, the 
great majority of these teen-agers comes from certain large cities, 
but to some degree this teen-age epidemic is like other teen-age fads 
and fashions, like dressing and driving hot-rod cars, and a liking for 
a particular kind of music, and things of that sort. So, although it 
started in the cities it is important that we get to it or it may speed 
to other cities and larger towns, and throughout the country, just as 
other epidemics do. They start somewhere. 

Senator Wiley. Well, not only has started, it is starting. In other 
words, you make the statement that marijuana leads to heroin. All 
right. 

Now, then, I am going back to the clinic idea which is to me very 
important. Do you not think that in our homes, churches, schools, in 
our city councils, in our county boards of the Nation, there is an im- 
perative need to realize that this is a terrific termite really striking 
at the foundations of our society, so much so that the parents of the 
children should recognize that they owe an added responsibility to 
see to it that the child does not make contact with marijuana, which 
is the beginning of the drug habit ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 251 

Dr. VoGEL. Yes, sir. The parents certainly, as well as the poten- 
tial addict, potential juvenile addict, should l3e fully informed as to 
the nature of drug addiction, both marijuana and heroin, and the 
consequences. 

Senator Wiley. Well, don't you think, as a matter of fact, there 
should be a greater emphasis on the spiritual and educational qualities 
among the youth so that they do not think they have to start, if this 
thing is thrown at them 

Dr. VciGEL. There are two points of attack, as I have said. One is to 
I'educe the amount of drugs available, and the other is to reduce the 
number of people in the community w^ho are attracted by the use of 
narcotic drugs, and that is just as broad as the whole mental health 
2)roblem of the Nation, to reduce the number of people who are the 
maladjusted, the misfits, the unha])py, the peoi)le who are not satisfied 
with their lot in life, who do not find it within their own home group, 
and within their own minds — find the ability to find contentment and 
satisfaction v.'ith their lot in the world. That is as broad as the whole 
mental health program. 

It involves slum clearance, for instance, because we find that many 
of these teen-agers come from the crowded, deteriorated slum areas. 
Many of them come from broken homes where one or both parents are 
missing, and where they spend more time than they should with the 
gan^ on the street corner; the lack of playgrounds, the departure, I 
thiiuv, from the American family, as you say, of the spiritual values, 
that is im])ortant. Anything that can be done to improve the general 
mental health of the Nation will reduce the number of addiction-prone 
individuals. 

Senator Wiley. Well, marijuana, to a large extent, comes from 
Mexico, does it not ? 

Dr. Vogel. Yes, sir. Mr. Anslinger can tell you more about that. 
It is my understanding that in addition to that which is grown in 
our country, particularly the Southwest, that great quantities are im- 
ported from Mexico and, 1 think, it w^as probably originally intro- 
duced, perhaps, into the New Orleans area from Mexico. 

Senator Wiley. Well, now, that is just across the border. We had 
testimony indicating that the estimate of one youngster was — he said 
that in his opinion over 50 percent of the students in that high school 
were using marijuana. I again say that the Federal Government 
owes that resj^onsibility to stop it from crossing the border ; the city 
council and the school board have the responsibility of seeing to it 
that it does not get into these youngsters in those cities, 

I noticed the other day that a judge in Chicago had given a dope 
peddler 25 years. That is a })eginning that should have started long 
ago, but I am getting again back t-o this clinic idea. If we are going 
to hold a clinic as to the disease, you want to know what the cause is. 
One of the great causes is the ability to get it, and if the various mu- 
nicipal authorities, school authorities, the parents, will recognize that 
here is another challenge to the preservation of the lives of their chil- 
dren, why, it seems to me, that we are really getting underway. 

AVhat we have been doing is letting George do it, passing the buck 
to the other fellow to do the job, have we not? 

Dr. Vogel. The Federal enforcement agencies, as well as the States 
and the local enforcement agencies need greatly increased public sup- 
port, j)articularly financial support in doing their end of this job. 



252 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Wilf.y. You said soniethino; about the increase among the 
poorer groups ; the underprivileged, I think you said. There is where 
particularly society owes an obligation to step in and see that some- 
one stands on guard and sees that the conditions are improved ; is that 
not true? 

Dr. VoGEL. Very true. 

Senator Wiley. I think that is all, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Doctoi', we are very much obliged to you, and we 
think you ai'e not only pei-forming very important work, but doing 
it in a most efficient and commendable manner. 

Dr. VorjEL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. We are now going to call to the stand a patient at 
the hospital, and before doing so, I would like to ask Mr. Moser if he 
would make a statement regarding the conditions under which the 
witness is being called. 

Dr. Vogel, will you come around to us, please, and sit with us. 

Dr. Vogel. Yes. 

The Chairman. Mr. Moser? 

Mr. Moser. The calling of an addict to testify is something that has 
never been done before, and we feel that it has to be done under very 
strict precautions, so we ask the cooperation of the press and the tele- 
vision people and the news-reel people to comply with the require- 
ments that we have ajjjreed upon. 

This patient has offered to come here, and he is j^ermitted to come 
here. He happens to be a volunteer at the hospital and not there as 
a prisoner, but in any event he prefers not to be televised, and prefers 
not to have his identity revealed or his picture taken. 

We have agreed to comply with those requests of his, so we wish 
that everybody here will cooperate with us in that regard. It has been 
asked whether we could record his voice, and the answer is that is 
correct. You may continue to do the recording ; just that his face and 
identity shall not be revealed. 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand. In the presence of Al- 
mighty God do you swear that the testimony you give is the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairinian. It is also agreed, if you agree, that your hands 
may be identified, as long as your face and identity are not revealed — 
yo'^T hands ma^^ be photographed, is that all right with you? 

Mr. . Yes. 



TESTIMONY OF 



The Chairman. You do understand the conditions which were just 
announced by counsel ? Did you understand those ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And that is in accordance with your wishes? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You are satisfied and willing to give the committee 
the benefit of the information you have under those circumstances? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. We would at the outset urge that you. give us all 
the details; answer the questions truthfully. We do not desire any- 
thing except actual facts. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 253 

Mr, . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. We would, therefore, like you to be sure of every- 
thing you say, and give us the benefit of all your information. Thank 
you. 

Mr. Moser ? 

Mr. Moser. How old are you ? 

Mr. . I am seventeen. 

Mr. Moser. And you are of Puerto Rican descent, is that correct? 

Mr. •. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Where did you go to school ? 

Mr. . New York City. 

Mr. Moser. What type of school? You do not have to name it. 

Mr. . Aviation school. 

Mr. Moser. Aviation school? 

Mr. • . Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. Did you finish ? 

Mr. . No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. AVhy did you stop ? 

Mr. . Because of drugs. 

Mr. Moser. You left because of drugs ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser. What was the first drug you used ? 

Mr. . Marijuana. 

Mr. MosER. How old were you ? 

Mr. . I was about 13. 

Mr. MosER. You started marijuana at 13? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I am going to ask you if after Mr. Moser's ques- 
tion is asked, you will give your answer clearly if you can, just for the 
short time you are on the stand, so that all may hear you. Thank 
you. 

Mr. Moser. A little louder, the Senator wishes to hear. 

How many boys of your age did you know who were using mari- 
juana? 

Mr. . Four of five of them. 

Mr. Moser, Four or five. Do you know of any others who were 
doing it in the same neighborhood ? 

Mr. . They might have been doing it ; I don't know. 

Mr. Moser, You did not know them well ? 

Mr, . No, that is right, 

Mr, Moser, But there were other children who were doing it, you 
think? 

Mr, — — , Yes, sir, 

Mr, Moser, Not necessarily in tlie school ? 

Mr, , No. 

Mr, Moser, But in the neighborhood ? 

Mr, ■ . Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moser, A little louder, please. 

When you used marijuana did you use it alone or use it in a party 
with groups of other boys ? 

Mr, , I used it alone, 

Mr, Moser, Alone ? 



85277— 51— pt. 14- 



254 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Didn't you ever use it in parties ? 

Mr. . When I would be going to a party. 

Mr. MosER. Oh, before you went ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. How did you happen to start heroin? 

Mr. . I just — it just came around and one day I tried it out. 

Mr. MosER. You mean some friend suggested it ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Was he somebod}^ who was using it ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. He was an addict ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And he suggested tliat you try it? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did he give it to you or sell it to you? 

Mr. . He gave it to me. 

Mr. MosER. I see. Did he say he knew where to get more ? 

Mr. . No, he didn't say nothing about that. 

Mr. MosER. He just let you try it ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you start off by sniffing it ? 

Mr. . Sniffing it. 

Mr. MosER. The terms ''sniffing*' and "snorting," I think, everybody 
should understaiid. The term is applied to the first use of it, fre- 
quently by sniffing in the nose. 

How long did you snort it? 

Mr. . About a year and a half. 

Mr. MosER. And then you tried the needle ? 

Mr. — . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. How much of that habit did you have by snorting it? 
How many times a day did you use it ? 

Mr. . I would say 1 used about 25. 

Mr. MosER. Twenty-five a day ? 

Mr. . Capsules. 

Mr. MosER. Twenty-five capsules a day ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. How much did they cost ? 

Mr. . $10 a package. 

Mr. MosER. $10 a package and a package contains 25 capsules; is 
that correct ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. This was heroin only ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And did you want more than you could get ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. You always wanted more? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. There was no limit to the amount you wanted? 

Mr. . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. So as much as you had, you always wanted to get more?" 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Where did you get the money to pay for this ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 255 

Mr. . I was workiiio-. 

Mr. MosER. You were workin<>- at wliat kind of a job ? 

Mr. . I was a clerk. 

Mr. MosER. Did you leave school to <^et monej^ for this^ 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mv. MosER. You left school and worked to get money to buy drugs? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You worked as a clerk, and did you live at home witU 
your mother^ 

Mv. . Yes. sir. 

Mr. MosER. And did your mother pay all your living expenses, 
food and lodging ? 

Mr. . Yes. sir. 

Mr. MosER, So that the money you earned at your job was spent 
entirely for heroin ; is that correct ? 

Mr. '- . Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. How much did he pay ? 

Mr. MosER. About $10 a day the witness said. 

How long were you addicted ? 

Mr. . About 2 years and a half. 

Mr. MosER. Two and a half years ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. You spent $10 a day for 21/2 years ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. How long before your mother found it out? 

Mr. . About a month or 2 before I came here. 

Mr. IMosER. About a month or 2 before you came to the institution ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And how did she find out ? What made her susjiicious ? 

Mr. . She would always be seeing me hanging around the 

house, diowsy, moody, and she started asking me questions about it. 
Going around the neighborhood, and one day I told her. 

Mr. MosER. You felt sick when vou didn't get the drug. 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. She noticed that? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did she notice that you were staying by yourself a good 
deal instead of playing with other children ? 

Mr. . Tlnit is right. 

Mr. MosER. And now when you were using heroin, how many other 
children were there you knew were using it ? 

Mr. . Four or five of them. 

Mr. MosER. Four or live ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And did you get it together ? 

Mr. . No. 

Mr. MosER. You bought it by yourself? 

Mr. . I always bought it by myself, only when I didn't have 

no money. 

Mr. MosER. Whenever you had money you bought it by yourself? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did they sometimes furnish the money to buy it so that 
you bought it together? 



256 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. . Well, if I didn't have enough money, then I would do 

that. 

Mr. MosER. Get them to chip in ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Were there cases where you and others used it at 
the same time ? 

Mr. . No, I always used it alone. 

The Chairman. Were there any times that you saw others using? 

Mr. . No, only maybe once in a while. 

The Chairman. Did you have any difficulty in getting it? 

Mr. . No, sir. 

The Chairman. Without going into details of it, just how would 
that be ? Did you buy it always from the same person ? 

Mr. . No, sir. 

The Chairman. Then if you did not buy it from the same person, 
how did you know that others had it for sale and you were able to 
get it from them ? 

Mr. . Well, they knew I was using it because I used to look 

sick and everything, and I would go up to them and they would tell 
me they had it. I could usually tell. 

The Chairman, Were there many engaged in the sale of it? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Were they on the streets ? 

Mr. . On the streets. 

Mr. MosER. You bought it from peddlers on the street ? 

Mr. •, Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And they weren't hard to find ? 

Mr. . No, sir. 

Mr, MosER. Can you tell us about where it was? This is in New 
York City? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. About what area, what street? 

Mr. , Downtown. 

Mr. MosER. What street numbers? 

Mr. . There was no exact street. It was all over. 

Mr. MosER, The general area, 

Mr. . About from 125 down. 

Mr. MosER. Anywhere from 110 to 125? 

Mr. . Lower than that. 

Mr, MosER, Lower than that still. And did you buy individual cap- 
sules or did you buy it always in package? 

Mr. , I always bought a package. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever hear of any child being killed by an 
overdose ? 

Mr. , Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Children you knew? 

Mr, . Yes, sir. 

Mr, MoSER, Were they ever killed by hotshots ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. A hotshot is a capsule that contains a poison; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 257 

Mr. MosER. Why were hot shots given ? 

Mr. . I don't know. 

Mr. MosER. A capsule containing poison would be given to a child 
by a peddler who claimed that it was heroin ; is that correct ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What happened when the child received a hot shot? 

Mr. . He died suddenly. 

Mr. MosER. Dropped dead? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You knew children who were killed by that? 

]Mr. . I didn't know many. I knew one. 

Mr. MosER. At least one. Did that scare you ? 

Mr. . Yes, got me a little more cautious, that is all. 

Mr. MosER. Little more cautious, a little more careful about where 
you bought it? 

Senator Wilet. How could you tell? 

Mr. . By tasting it. 

Senator Wil^y. Taste ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Senator Wiley. You said you bought a package. What do you 
mean by a package ? 

]\Ir. . A package is 25 capsules. 

Senator Wiley. How many? 

Mr. . Twenty-five. 

Senator Wiley. How much? 

Mr. •. $10. 

Senator Wiley. $10 for 25 capsules ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Of heroin? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. You use that up in a day ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How much did you spend every day for large quanti- 
ties of it? I don't mean every day, but what is the largest quantity 
you ever purchased at one time? 

Mr. — •. Half an ounce. 

Mr. MosER. How much did that cost? 



Mr. 



Mr. MosER. $80. Sometimes you would buj^ $80 worth at once ? 

Mr. . Just one time. 

Mr. MosER. Just once? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you keep that for yourself or did you sometimes 
share it with friends? 

Mr. . For myself. 

Mr. MosER. Never let any friends have it ? 

Mr. . Maybe once I let a friend have it. 

Mr. MosER. When they were sick. When you were taking heroin^ 
you were working part oiF the time? 

Mr. . Most of the time. 

Mr. MosER. Did it interfere with your work? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What was the effect? 



258 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. -. I "would get sick, wouldn't have the money to buy it, and 

have to stay away from work. 

The Chairman. When you stayed away from work and not having 
the money to buy it, how would you later get the money in order to 
keep on the habit? 

Mr. . I would get it together, ask my mother, my grandmother, 

I would ask people for it. 

Mr. MosKR. Borrow it? 

Mr. . Borrow it. 

The Chairman. They did not know anything about your habit at 
the time ? 

Mr. . No. 

The Chairman. Did you do anything else in order to get the money ? 

Mr. . I did something else. 

Mr. MosER. You had to do some stealing to get it? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You had to do anything you could to get the money ; 
is that correct ? 

Mr. . Yes- 

The Chairman. Did you use all the money you got for that pur- 
pose? • 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You couldn't work well because you were irregular and 
didn't feel well and it interfered with your job? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You knew other children who were addicted. How did 
they get their money ? 

Mr. . I didn't know. I always stayed alone. 

Mr. Moser. None of them told you where they got the money ? 

Mr.- . No. 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever hear of any peddler giving heroin free 
to a child to encourage him to become an addict ? 

Mr. . No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. But you did know of cases where it was given to chil- 
dren ? 

Mr. . No, sir. 

Mr. Moser. It was given to you ? 

Mr. ■ . It was given to me, but I don't know about anybody 

else. 

Mr. Moser. You know of no other cases? 

Mr. . No. 

Mr. Moser. That is all. 

The Chairman. I did understand you had some information re- 
garding othei" children who were on the habit. Did you know them 
for very long before you went to the hospital ? 

Mr. . Did I know other people that used it ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. . I knew one or two people that were using it. 

The Chairman. Well, don't you have any information as to how 
any of them were getting the money with which to buy ? 

Mr. . No, sir. 

The Chairman. You don't know that? 

Mr. . No. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 259 

The Chairman. Senator AViley. 

Senator Wiley. Before 3011 got addicted to heroin did you go to 
school ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. How big a school did you attend ? 

Mr. . It was a pretty big school. 

Senator Wiley. A couple of thousand? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Was it there you got acquainted with marijuana? 

Mr. . No, sir. 

The Chairman. Where did you get acquainted with marijuana? 

Mr. . Around where I lived. 

Senator Wiley. Who got you into that habit? 

Mr. . I used to see it around. One day I got into it myself. 

Senator Wiley. See it around? 

Mr. . Curiosity. 

Senator Wiley. You mean some of the marijuana peddlers were 
around with it ? 

Ml'. . Yes ; they were around. 

Senator Wiley. Cigarettes, are they ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Senator Wiley. So you took to smoking them ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. And then, after you had been smoking them for 
a while, you got into the — someone got you into the heroin habit? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Was that a peddler ? 

Mr. . No, sir. 

Senator W^iley. Who was it ? 

Mr. . It was a user. 



Senator Wiley. A youtl 



Mr. . A user. 

Senator Wiley. A user ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Senator AYiley. Were you working at that time? 

Mr. . No ; I wasn't working at that time. 

' Senator Wiley. You want to say that until you came to the insti- 
tution that every cent you made went to dope ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. And that averaged, your earnings were about $10 
a day ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Your background — you are Puerto Rican ; are 
you not? 

Mr. -. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. You were born in this country? 

Mr. -. Yes, sii\ 

Senator Wiley. Now, how do you tell a peddler? 

Mr. . Well, you can just tell. They would usually come 

up to me and offer it. 

Senator Wiley. You mean that the peddler would recognize a doj^e 
addict ; is that right ? 

Mr. . Yes. 



260 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Wiley. How do you recognize a dope addict? 

Mr. . You can tell like a sick man, when you see a sick man 

that is a drug addict. 

Senator Wiley. Then, when he gets you hooked, he knows you have 
got to have it to save youi-self from pain and terrific suffering; is 
that it? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Then, when that dope wears off, you have got to 
have more dope or you are in pain and intense suffering again? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. How many dope peddlers were there that you knew 
of in round figures that you could get this dope from? How many 
could you spot? 

Mr. . Well, four or five of them. 

Senator Wiley. Same guys all the time ? 

Mr. . No. They would come on and off. 

Senator Wiley. Different guys? 

Mr. . Different guys all the time. 

Senator Wiley. Would they spot you or would you spot them? 

Mr. . They would spot me first. 

Senator Wiley. They would spot you first ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Was that true of your other young friends who got 
hooked ? 

Mr. . I don't know about them. That is me. 

Senator Wiley. Let's get this plain. When you say you "get 
hooked," that means that you have liecome addicted to the drug so 
that you have got to have it or you will 

Mr. . Suffer. 

Senator Wiley (continuing). Suffer eternal pain, mentally and 
physically ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. And so you have just got to do anything to get 
it? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. That is what you did? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Did you take stuff from your mother? 

Mr. . Yes ; I took stuff from my mother. 

Senator Wiley. You mean you peddled stuff to get money, stole 
stuff, you mean? 

Mr. — . Yes; I stole stuff. What do you mean "stole what 

stuff"? 

Senator Wiley. You stole stuff out of the house ? 

Mr, . Yes ; I stole stuff out of the house. 

Senator Wiley. In order to get money to buy this dope? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Senator Wiley. If you had known what you were getting into, 
would you ever have started it? 

Mr. , No, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Would you advise all youth never to start on either 
marijuana or heroin? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRKME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 261 

Senator Wiley. You are 17 years old? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Is that all. Senator Wiley? 

Senator Wiley. Yes; thank you. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. That will conclude the 
examination. 

We would now like to call to the stand Mr. Dumpson. Will you 
please stand and raise your right hand ? 

In the presence of Almighty (xod, do you swear that the testimony 
you give shall be the ti'uth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 

Mr. Dumpson. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. DUMPSON, CONSULTANT ON CORRECTION 
AND DELINQUENCY, WELFARE COUNCIL, NEW YORK, N. Y. 

The Chairman. Your full name, please. 

Mr. Dumpson. James E. Dumpson. 

The Chairman. Mi-. Dumpson, your position is what ? 

Mr. Dumpson. Consultant on correction and delinquency, Welfare 
Council, New York City. 

The Chairman. Now, would you be good enough just during the 
course of your examijiation to keep your voice up and speak loudly 
and distinctly, please, so we all may hear. 

Mr. Moser. 

Mr. jMoser. Mr. Dumpson, I understand that you have been a 
teacher and you have been in the educational field in New York and 
in Pennsylvania. 

Mr. Dumpson. That is correct. 

Mr. Moser. And you did social work as well as teaching? 

Mr. Dumpson. I have done social work as well as teaching. 

Mr. MosER. Will you describe very briefly what the Welfare Coun- 
cil is and what it does ? 

Mr. Du^NiPsoN. The welfare council is a voluntary planning and 
coordinating agency in New York City for health and welfare serv- 
ices, made up of 315 public and voluntary social and health agencies, 

Mr. MosER. That organization is now turning its interests toward 
narcotics ? 

Mr. Dumpson. That is one of our major concerns. 

Mr. MosER. What caused you to do that? What attracted your 
attention to the subject ? 

Mr. Dumpson. There were really tw^o incidents back in April or 
May of 1950. The supervisor at one of our State training schools 
called my office to ask what facilities were available for the treatment 
of teen-age addicts, that she had in her office three 15-year-old girls 
she described as addicts. That is a question normally that w^ould be 
asked of the council. Just about the same time our field secretary in 
a part of the Borough of Manhattan 

Senator Wiley. You mean heroin addicts? 

Mr. Dumpson. Yes. [Continuing :] Indicated there was increased 
use of narcotics among teen-agers in that borough. 

Mr. MosER. You organized a special committee for that ? 

Mr. Dumpson. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And made a study of the subject generall}^? 



262 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DuMPsoN. Yes; we did. 

Mr. MosER. Can you give us a few case histories that show the type 
of situation you have come upon ? 

Mr. DuMPsoN. Yes, sir: I can, Mr. Moser. One is the case of a 16- 
year-old boy, which ilhistrates the kind of youngster who steals in 
order to su])port his habit. We will call him Frank. He is 16, at- 
tending public school in New York City. 

The mother came to the agency that brought this case to my atten- 
tion in a state of panic because Frank, she found, was using heroin, 
and she already had two other sons, one of whom w^as at Lexington 
under treatment, and another in a penal institution in New York City 
for treatment as addicts. 

Mr. MosER. All three of her sons were addicts ? 
Mr, DuMPSON. All three of her sons were addicts. This is a well- 
built, described as a normal, youngster, and both parents are in the 
home, though there had been a history of rebellion on the part of the 
children toward the parents. One sister was pregnant out of wed- 
lock. Another sister was employable but refused to work, and there- 
fore had brought about considerable difficulty with the family and its 
relationships with the department of welfare from whom thev were 
receiving assistance. The mother said she became suspicious of Frank 
first when she noticed he was developing a close relationship with 
the same group of friends that the two older brothers had been asso- 
ciated with, and that was her first indication that he might be moving 
mro addiction. 

When he came to the agency for help, he had withdrawn from 
school; he was out of a job, and he came asking for them to find him 
a job. 

An examination revealed that Frank was much too upset to get 
a job or to be referred for a job. The worker noticed the first time he 
came in he was quite active, extremely active, and she asked him about 
it, and he said, oh, he felt fine. This activity was a little unusual for 
an interview in which he had come to discuss the situation. 

He came .back a couple of days later, and his reaction was quite the 
opposite. He Avas depressed and rather quiet, and she asked him 
didn't he feel well. He said "Yes." As a matter of fact, he wished 
he felt as well as he did the preceding day. But he wouldn't tell her 
what it was that made him feel, what the difference was. 

About this time while they were working, trying to find a plan that 
would satisfy Frank's need, he was picked up for forging a check, 
and while he was held under detention it was discovered, the injection 
marks on his arm were discovered, and medical advice was sought, 
and it was confirmed that Frank Avas an addict, and he has since been 
committed to one of the Federal institutions for juvenile delinquents. 
Mr. Moser. You mentioned the fact that he had been forging checks. 
Mr. DuMPSON. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Has there been an epidemic of the forging of checks by 
teen-agers in New York? 

Mr. DuMPSON. There has been quite an epidemic of all sorts of 
criminal activities as a result of the youngsters' need to support their 
habit once they have gotten into the addiction cycle. 
Mr. Moser. There has been an increase in this petty type of thievery ? 
Mr. DuMPSON. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRI.ME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 263 

JNIr. MosER. They steal checks and forge them? 

Mr. DcMPSON. Anything in order to snpport the habit. 

Senator Wiley. Do you know anything about the mail-box bur- 
glaries ? 

Mr. DuiMPSON. No. 

Senator Wiley. By teen-age youngsters. 

jlr. DuMPSON. There has been some. It was really a Government 
check this boy had stolen and forged in order to secure funds. 

Mr. MosER. You had another case? 

Mr. DuMPSON. Yes. This one was amusing because it illustrates a 
group of youngsters who come from economically secure families, a 
family of good social standing in the community, and indicating that 
the problem as we see it in New York cuts across all economic and 
social lines. 

This was a youngster 18 years of age, lived at home with his mother 
and his father and older brother and older sister. As I said, the 
family is economically secure, a good social standing; the father has a 
highly responsible job in government. The home is well kept, the 
mother doesn't work, and she is there to administer to the needs of 
that home. 

Gerald we had described to us as an overprotected, spoiled adoles- 
cent, well liked by his contemporaries, and, except for some minor 
difficulties whicli I suppose we could describe as normal for a growing 
adolescent, he had never been in any difficulty before. 

During 1950 the worker in one of our recreation agencies became 
aware tliat Gerald was smoking reefers, and when the worker discussed 
this with him, the worker found Gerald had been smoking reefers 
since he was 13 years of age. He said all the boys in his group smoked 
reefers. His group was made up of eight boys, six of whom were 
regular reefer smokers, had been for several years. 

Senator Wiley. What do you mean by "reefers"? 

Mr. DuMPSOx. "Eeefers" is another name for marijuana. 

Senator Wiley. We want that in the record. 

Mr. DuMPSOX. Gerald had been smoking four or five marijuana 
cigarettes a day. When the worker asked if he couldn't discuss this 
with his father, Gerald said he could not. He couldn't bear to have 
his father know this, and he wanted the worker to enter into an ar- 
rangement with him whereby the worker would lie to his father and 
tell him another story as to what was happening to his money and to 
his clothing, which Gerald was selling to get what he said were mari- 
juana cigarettes. 

It wasn't long until Gerald's behavior indicated to the worker that 
there was something more in the picture than "reefers'' and upon ex- 
amination it was found Gerald and a group of eight boys were using 
heroin and had been usiug it quite a long time. 

Senator Wiley. How? 

Mr. Du3iPsoN. B}^ intravenous injection. 

Senator Wiley. Into the vein in the arm ? 

The Chairman. Is that referred to as main-lining? 

Mr. DuMPSON. Yes. 

The Chairman. Might I just ask you there whether your inquiry 
revealed that the eight had been using it together? You have spoken 
several times of the fact that a number had been using it who were 



264 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

acquaintances. I was just wondering whether your information indi- 
cated that they were using it simultaneously or in groups. 

Mr. DuMPSON. Senator, that did come out a little later in our in- 
vestigation when, after Franl^'s father discovered him using the heroin 
in the bathroom at home. This was the first knowledge that the father 
had of it. It was on a very cold day and Frank immediately left the 
home practically unclad and went to the agency to talk to the worker 
who knew of this addiction habit. 

It was at that time that Frank disappeared and when the father 
came in distress asking the worker to help him find Frank, the worker 
knew some of the homes of these boys and went to an old, dilapidated 
house and found Frank along with the other eight youngsters in this 
room, and quite obviously they had all been injecting each other. It 
was then that we found this was a practice that the boys had been 
engaging in in a group over a period of years. 

Of course, by this time the father knew of it, and we attempted to 
have Franlc admitted to Bellevue Hospital, and later asked to have 
him sent to Lexington. The father refused just because of his posi- 
tion in the community, and made arrangements whereby Gerald would 
stay at home under the father's supervision. The worker counseled 
against it but that was as far as the father was able to be moved. 
Within 2 weeks the father was back saying he realized tliat the plan 
would not work, that Gerald could not stay off the drug, and he was 
willing to have Gerald go to Lexington. Gerald did go to Lexington 
and stayed there about 6 weeks, and the mother became hysterical 
about what she had heard about Lexington and asked to have Gerald 
returned home. 

He came back against medical advice, went back on his habit, and 
has completely disappeared and his whereabouts are unknown to his 
family or to the police of New York City. 

Mr. MosER. I can see you have made a study of this. Can you tell 
us something about the areas in which it seems to be more prevalent 
in New York City? 

Mr. DuMPsoN. Certainly. There are several areas in which this is 
most prevalent in New York City. However, there are one or two 
that sort of stick out in our community as sore thumbs. I would 
like to present to you a description of one of those areas, the area 
known as East Harlem, probably the most widely publicized in the 
press. This is a picture of the situation in East Harlem as I have 
seen it and as workers in the field have seen it. 

Social workers dealing with gangs all report that the rate of mari- 
juana usage is at least 50 percent, with this being a very conservative 
figure in their estimation. These include youths 13 years of age, and 
you have many indications that the age for this type of addiction is 
lowering steadily. In fact, one minister reported that several 9-year- 
old boys had been approached by peddlers attempting to have them 
ttake the drug. 

Well, of course, there is conflicting medical opinion about the dam- 
age wrought by marijuana itself. Our indications are that these 
youngsters start with marijuana and then very soon move into heroin 
or sniffing cocaine or the use of morphine. Boys have a term describ- 
ing what happens to them. They say they go from Sneaky Pete to 
pot, to horse, to banging. What they mean is 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 265 

The Chairman. Give us that in Eiitrlish. 

I^Ir. DuMPSON. They start off with wine, then they move into mari- 
juana. 

Mr. MosER. Wine is Sneaky Pete? 

Mr. DuMPSON. Yes, then marijuana. They call that pot. Then 
sniffing heroin flakes, which of course is the liorse. Then, of course, 
banging, which is an intravenous injection or the main-lining use of 
heroin. That is a conunon expression in this area among the boys. 
Yon walk down the street and hear them discussing the stages that 
they go through in use of narcotic drugs. 

In meetings and in personal visits in the area with a total of about 
25 adults, these adults had gone through three blocks to make some 
real close-hand observation of what was going on, and that is what 
these adults found. First, a social athletic club on one of the blocks, 
with a membership of about 50 boys, at least 18 to 20 of whom were 
known to be regular heroin users. These are boys in their late teens, 
IT, 18, 1!), audearly twenties. According to several young women 
who know the boys \vell, this proportion of users is quite normal for 
organizations of youngsters of this type in this particular area. 

Anothei- group of eyewitnesses reported a total of at least 6 teen-age 
groups aged 13 to 17, numbering from 6 to 10 per group, who used 
the hallways, roofs of apartment buildings, and the basements as 
places to inject each other. There again you get a picture of this, 
group use of narcotic drugs. 

In one block adjacent to one of the junior high schools the method 
of distribution is described as follows: The pushers, usually adults, 
stand in hallways 

Mr. MosER. A pusher is a peddler? 

Mr. DuMrsoN. Peddler of the drug. They stand in the doorways 
and pass the goods to the girls as they go into the school building. 

Senator Wiley. This is a public school ? 

Mr. DuMPSON. This is a public school. 

Senator Wiley. When you say "goods," do you mean marijuana? 

Mr. DuMPSON. Marijuana or heroin, either. These adult sellers 
standing along the side wall of the school building or in the hallways 
of a house that is adjacent to the school 

The Chairman. You say pass it to the students on their way to 
the school ? 

Mr. DuMPSON. Yes, these students, of course, are known to these 
adults. They don't do it indiscriminately. 

The Chairman. Do we understand they were regular customers 
and the method of delivery was as they were on their way to the 
classroom ? 

Mr. Dumpsox. That is correct. The actual percentage of the 
number of youngsters who get it this way is, of course, not known, 
but we have an indication, as will be seen from some of our charts, 
that this is an increasingly worsening situation as the period of time 
goes on. 

Then the people in the area talk about the higher-ups in the peddling 
business or the selling business. They are, of course, talking then 
about men who are further up in the echelon of the illicit trade of 
drugs in the area. The higher-ups usually hang out in the bars or 



266 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

restaurants or what tliey call junkies' paradise, which is a hang-out for 
the sale and distribution of drugs. 

The Chairman. Have junky 

Mr. DuMPSON. An addict who is also selling himself. We have ap- 
proximated that within the three blocks of this neighborhood there 
are about 20 places that can be identified or are under suspicion as 
places for the sale and distribution of drugs. 

The Chairman. That small area of three blocks ? 

Mr. DuMPSoN. Yes, that is correct. The police have made frequent 
raids there; for a period after the raids, of course, there is a quiet i'g 
down of activity and then very shortly activity begins to develop 
again. 

For the majority of teen-agers, the teen-age pushers, they are the 
teen-agers who themselves are selling, seem to be the main source of 
supply in this area. That is accounted for by the fact that once the 
youngster himself has become addicted, he must have funds in order 
to buy his own supply, and pushers or the adult sellers will give him 
a percentage, sometimes they will give him his daily dosage if he 
in turn will increase his distribution of the drug among other teen- 
agers. 

Mr. MosER. Mr. Dumpson, you have gotten np some statistics, as 
I understand it, sliowing the development of addiction in New York 
City. Have you those charts here? 

Mr. DuMPSON. Yes, we do have. The statistics are statistics that 
were reported in our recent State inquiry. 

The Chairman. Might I ask you before you go into the matter of 
the charts — you have given us a picture which is certainly very chal- 
lenging as to the gravity of this whole situation. Might I ask you 
whether from your observation it has been of recent origin, more or 
less recent origin, or whether it has gotten to epidemic proportions 
during the recent past. 

Mr. Dumpson. I would say, Senator, it has gotten to epidemic pro- 
portions during the year 1950. 

The Chairman. During 1950 ? 

Mr. Dumpson. We had other indications, those of us working in 
the field of delinquency in New York City, of the increased use of 
narcotic drugs among teen-agers back as early as 1945 and 1946, but 
it was in certain areas of high delinquency, and we weren't concerned 
about it on a general community level. 

The Chairman. But you do believe it has been in the last year or 
two that it has gotten to the alarming proportions that you describe? 

Mr. Dumpson. We are convinced of that ; yes indeed. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Dumpson. On this first chart it indicates the marked increase 
of individual arrests in New York City for the possession or sale of 
narcotic drugs. You will notice the line here from 1946, 1947, 1948, 
1949, at which time there were 576 individuals arrested and sentenced 
to our city institutions. 

Now, I should point out that by and large those individuals who 
were sentenced for possession, because in New York State the sale 
of narcotic drugs constitutes a felony, and felons in New York State 
are admitted to State institutions. Then you will notice the marked 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 267 

increase from 19-49 to 1950 and the figure was practically doubled 
from 576 in 1949 to 1,031 in 1950. 

The figure given for the first quarter of 1951 is 614, If that rate 
of incidence is continued throughout the year 1951, by the end of 
1951 we will have approximately 2,400 arrests. 

You see, we have gone from 1946 with 287, we will have gone to 
2,400 in a 5-year period. 

Mr. MosER. The dotted line is an estimate based on the trend? 
Mr. DuMPSON. That is correct. 

The Chaikmax. It certainly appears that it is markedly upward. 
Mr. DuMPSON. That is right, sir. 

Now, in this second chart you have a line graph showing offenders 
in our penal institutions in New York City who are known to be addicts 
or users. The heavy line indicates those over the age of 21, and the 
trend, and the lighter line at the bottom represents those who are 
under 21. For those under 21 you will notice that in 1946 we had 
only 19 teen-agers in our penal institutions who were users or addicts. 
By 1950 that number increased to 123. 

I should point out also that in New York State relatively few of our 
teen-agers should be in these institutions because we have special 
institutions for what we call youthful offenders or wayward minors; 
so that you have even in these institutions a marked increase between 
the years 1946 to 1950. 

Now the estimated figure if the present rate, present incidence rate, 
is continued through 1951, you will have approximately 2,000 — rather, 
304 teen-agers in our institutions who are addicts or users. 

You will see by the heavy line there has been a similar marked in- 
crease from 1949 to 1950 of the adults who are in our city institutions, 
either as users or addicts. 

Mr. ISlosER. The next chart relates to prison commitments, as I 
understand it. 

Mr. DuMPsoN. The next chart I would like to offer is the one that 
shows the deaths that have been reported as due to narcotic drugs or 
the overuse of narcotic drugs. 

These figures reported by the chief medical examiner of the city of 
New York indicate that in 1947 we had 19 deaths that were reportable 
as due to the use of narcotic drugs, and as the chief medical examiner 
pointed out, those are only deaths that were reported as such. There 
may have been a number of deaths not so reported. 

In 1948 the figure dropped to 18. By 1949 it had gone up to 32. In 
1950 it had gone up 56. If the present incidence rate of the first 
quarter of 1951 is continued, we will have 44 reported deaths due to 
narcotics in the city of New York. 

Senator Wiley. What about barbiturates ? 
Mr. DuMPSON. That has not been reported, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Don't you think a lot of deaths occurred from that, 
youngsters using them ? 

Mr. DuMP^oN. Undoubtedly so, but again the chief medical ex- 
aminer pointed out what goes on the death certificate is largely the 
responsibility of the individual physician. He is called in only where 
there is a question as to the cause of death. 

Mr. MosER. Are the deaths caused by the overdoses ? 



268 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DuMPSON. In most cases, yes, in almost all cases. 

Mr. MosER. Sometimes by adulteration in the drugs? 

Mr. DuMPsoN. Yes. This is not included in the figures of the chief 
medical examiner, but there has been a case reported of a group, of 
people dying from tetanus where, due to the adulteration, the tetanus 
germ was in substance used to adulterate the drugs. That has not been 
verified to my knowledge, but it has been reported through the press. 

Mr. MosER. That adulteration is introduced directly into the blood 
stream ? 

Mr. DuMPsoN. That is correct. 

Mr. MosER. Do you have another chart ? 

Mr. DuMPSON. Yes, this chart shows the number of arrests by our 
police department, largely through the narcotics squads of the police 
department, and also by other members of the force. 

The purpose of this chart is to indicate again, Senator, the marked 
increase from the year 1949 on up, and the dotted line showing the 
projection if the present incidence rate is continued for those under 
21 will reach 596 during 1951, and 3,420 for those over 21, if the 
present incidence rate is continued. 

Mr. MosER. These figures are very helpful, Mr. Dumpson. We 
appreciate it very much. 

The Chairman. Are there any questions? 

Senator Wiley. I think there are some figures we should have 
based upon your estimate of the general over-all picture in New York. 
We have got the greatest city in the world, but we have a tremendous 
bunch of growing youths there. If we get that picture right, you 
may have hundreds or thousands of our youngsters in New York 
getting picked up with marijuana and then with heroin. 

Mr. Dumpson. That is correct, sir. 

Senator Wiley. You have got figures running into that amount, 
and do you know anything about the cost of dope in the streets of 
New York? 

Mr. Dumpson. Yes. Youngsters are paying about $1.50 a capsule 
for a capsule of heroin. 

Senator Wiley. One dollar and a half a capsule? 

Mr. Dumpson. That is correct. 

Senator Wiley. We have had evidence where we have known of 
women wdio have got in the habit and who spent up to $40 a day for 
this stuif. 

Mr. Dumpson. We have had teen-agers. Senator, whom we know 
are spending 10 and 15 and I believe one court reported as high as $80 
a day. 

Senator Wiley. You are getting somewhere. Do you want to give 
us an estimate of over a hundred thousand people, youngsters and 
others, dope addicts in the city of New York ? 

Mr. Dumpson. We are now unfortunately at the moment not pre- 
pared to give even an estimate. 

Senator Wiley. I am talking now in terms of the economic take. 
You told us about them even getting youngsters, addicts, out peddling 
and then the next echelon goes to the guy that is at the bar that is 
getting them. I am trying to get up to the guy that is getting the big 
take. You eet a thousand dollars' worth of heroin and sell it for half 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 269 

a million. You liuve got a tremendous take out of this New York 
area. 

1 would like to know the guys that are really getting the big takes 
that are depleting the youth of this country, that are making it so 
they can't even get into the draft. It would be w'orth while to know, 
based upon some judgment, how much is involved — -probably millions 
and millions of dollars is taken because of this vast population. 

All right. Now, if that is so, what about the government in New 
York? You spoke of people standing outside of schools. Is there no 
responsibility anywhere? Isn't there somebody with some responsi- 
ble sense that recognizes the tremendous threat to the very life of the 
Nation in this thing? 

Mr. DuMPSON. 1 think there is, Senator, and in New York the 
police department, in cooperation wdth the Federal Bureau of Nar- 
cotics agents and our State health narcotic unit have been doing, I 
would say, almost a herculean job tracking down a number of these 
sellers of dope to our teen-age group. 

The ari'est figures in themselves indicate the phenomenal rapidity 
with which some of these people have been apprehended. We have 
strengthened our law and in the sentencing our mandatory minimum 
is really applicable to them. That is our big job ahead of them, to get 
further into what I consider a major business, the dope racket is a 
major business. These are people who are in it, pushing as you would 
push any legitimate business. 

Senator Wiley. Because of the great take and great profit. 

Mr. DuMPSON. That is right. 

Senator Wiley. Well, I haven't any question about the arrests, but 
this heroin has got to come from some place. It has to come through 
somebody. It has to be distributed down to the point where this guy 
can recognize he has got a youngster hooked. Now that fellow doing 
that peddling gets it from someone higher up, and that fellow gets it 
from somebody else. 

Probably when you get up here, you get to some bigshots running 
into millions and millions, violating the laws of the Nation, the laws 
of the State, and the laws of God and humanity. Let's get him. 
Let's get this gang. There must be a tremendous opportunity for a 
great take. 

Mr. DuMPSON. We feel. Senator, that that is the first port of call on 
the ])art of both the Fedei'al Government and the State governments. 
That is, the control of the supply and distribution. We feel that it 
can't be done solely on a local level. It involves not only the national 
Government but it involves international cooperation in the sale and 
distribution of narcotic drugs. 

We strongly urge there be increased Federal appropriations to the 
Federal Bureau so that additional staff may be made available so 
that the local communities can cooperate wnth the Federal Bureau 
in really sealing off the supply, the supply of drugs. 

The Chairman. Don't you feel it is imperative that there be co- 
o]iei'ation on the four levels — international, national. State, and 
local? 

Mr. DuMPSON. That is extremely important, but we can have all the 
activities we want to in the law enforcement level on the local scene, 



270 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

but unless we are cuttinir off the source of supply from the interna- 
tional level, then all our efforts are really at naught. 

Senator Wiley. I agi'ee it is imperatively necessary from a policing 
standpoint that you have those four agencies cooperating, but you 
have to have more than that. You have to have an ai'oused public 
opinion, public opinion that will see to it that public officials go to 
town in this matter, that they recognize that, and, after all, a public 
office is a public trust, and they have got a job to do. 

There must be in this case, such as we found when Senator Kef auver 
was chairman, that there were public officials giving protection. You 
couldn't help it when you get people running around the streets 
peddling this stuff. They are not dumb. You have told us this pic- 
ture. AVho is getting what is very important. 

Public opinion may tend to that. There must be the aroused senti- 
ment of the i)ai-ents. I can't understand how in a school — and we 
have had a number of instances — how the school authorities cannot 
hel}) Init be cognizant of this. They should have reported it and 
should have taken steps. 

Certainly there is no bigger responsibility in the world than a school 
teacher. He is shaping the young rod into a tree here to really go 
places or not go places. 

Mr. DuMPsoN. I think. Senator, there was reluctance, certainly in 
New York City and I am afraid in other communities in the country, 
a reluctance on the part of the adult connnunity to really believe 
teen-agers were involved in this thing. While some people were say- 
ing it was true, the community wasn't willing to face it until recently. 

In New York they have faced it, there is an aroused community, and 
there is public indignation that is insisting that something be done 
on all levels of the community, and the communities themselves are 
willing to take responsibility for cooperating. That has come of late. 

Senator Wiley. We have been talking about saving the residum 
of our youth that hasn't been impacted. 

What is your suggestion as to those who have already been hooked, 
the poor devils that are in it? From your large observance, from 
your knowledge of this situation, of course, as suggested by Senator 
Kefauver this morning, there is a great responsibility, JDut I am 
thinking about this seed corn back here that is still good seed corn that 
hasn't gone to the dogs through the use of this terrific thing. To me 
that is our first responsibility. But we do owe a tremendous respon- 
sibility because we have been negligent in not sensing this great dan- 
ger of our youth, and they are entitled to a fair break. If you have 
anything in that direction, I would like to have it. 

Mr. DuMPSON. Those who are alreadj' 

Senator Wiley. Hooked. 

JVIr. DuMPSON. We feel in New York that it is essential that there 
be adequate treatment facilities, not only as treatment for them but 
as protection for those who have not yet been touched, because our 
experience bears out what Dr. Vogel said here this morning, that each 
addict in himself is a potential infector for those who have not been 
touched. 

You must not only treat those who are addicted, but if you protect 
the others, you have to treat him also. We want facilities on a local 
level in New York because we feel that follow-up supervision that 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 271 

is necessary after hospitalization needs to be coordinated with the 
facilities, and it should be Avithin the State of New York so that we 
are pushing for that. 

We think also that the educational program is extremely important 
because Ave have youngster after youngster who tells us in our agency, 
"I didn't know. I took this as a lark, and I didn't kno • that tliis was 
going to be something that I would become a slave to."' So that we 
are insisting in our schools that we have a regular educational pro- 
gram, which is already under way. 

I think. Senator, also from the preventive level there is one other 
tiling we can do. I think all of our medical men are agreed now that 
certain tj^pes of individuals are more likely to go into drug addiction 
than others, those who are maladjusted, those who are neurotic, et 
cetera. 

I think we need to further extend our child-welfare services so that 
Ave can immunize those youngsters who are in our population against 
the onslaught of drug addiction, because if Ave have healthy young- 
sters, they aren't going to be dragged into this net of drug addiction. 
It cuts across our Avhole child- welfare picture. 

The Chairman. We think you and your associates are to be com- 
mended for the Avork you are doing and the intelligent manner in 
which have performed is very encouraging indeed. 

Mr. DuMPSON". Thank you. 

The Chairman. We AviJl next have a patient, and under conditions 
similar to that described by Mr. Moser, except I Avould like to add 
that in the case of the last patient we permitted pictures of his hands 
and pictures of his back to be taken, but in this case no pictures or 
television on the patient of any kind. Thank you. 

Will you please stand. In the presence of Almighty God, do you 
SAvear that the testimony you Avill give shall be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

TESTIMONY OF 



The Chairman. How old are you? 

Mr. . Eighteen years old. 

The Chairman. And from Avhat city do you come ? 

Mr, . Chicago, 111. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived in Chicago ? 

Mr. , All my life. 

The Chairman. I am going to ask you if you will sit up a little 
closer and talk into the microphone so that Ave may all hear you Avith- 
out difficulty. 
. Have you any brothers and sisters ? 

Mr. , I have one sister. 

The Chairman. One sister. And did you live in Chicago with 
jour father and mother ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. They are both living? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Have you used drugs ? 

Mr. . Yes. 



272 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. At what age did you begin? 

Mr. . I started smoking marijuana about the age of 14. 

The Chairman. At the age of 14 you started the use of marijuana. 
How did you get it ? 

Mr. . I got it, I started from an environment in the neigh- 
borhood, I got it tlirough a friend in the neighborhood. 

The Chairman. And how did you know that it was available to 
you, that you could get it ? 

Mr. . I had heard of persons using it. 

The Chairman. And what persons did you hear using it? Were 
they persons of your own age or older ? 

Mr. . Persons of my own age. 

The Chairman. And how old were you when you started to use 
it? 

Mr. . Marijuana? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. . Approximately 14 yea»s old. 

The Chairinian. Now were many others of your same age using it, 
to your knowledge ? 

Mr. . There were a number. 

The Chairman. And how much did it cost you to get it ? 

Mr. . Fifty cents. 

The Chairman. Fifty cents? 

Mr. . A stick. 

The Chairman. Fifty cents a stick. Fifty cents a "reefer?" 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. How many were you using after you got into the 
habit regularly ? 

Mr. . Wasn't no actual physical dependence. 

The Chairman. No actual physical dependence? 

Mr. . Not on marijuana, but it did take a certain number to 

get the desired effect. That would all depend on the quality of the 
marijuana you might have got. 

The Chairman. Did you find that it was of different qualities? 

Mr. . Decidedly. 

The Chairman. Decidedly. Have you gone through high school? 

Mr. . Yes ; I have. 

The Chairman. Have you gone to the university ? 

Mr. . I went to the University of Illinois. 

The Chairman. How long did you attend the University of Illi- 
nois ? 

Mr. . Approximately 3 months. 

The Chairman. Wliy did you leave? 

Mr. . Because of using drugs. 

The Chairman. Could you keep on with your studies and at the 
same time continue on the use of the drugs ? 

Mr. . It didn't affect my thinking power very much. It was 

more so the money that I used to go to school and the money to pur- 
chase books for my studies, I could not put out because it was going 
to the use of drugs. That is why I stopped. 

The Chairman. The money you had for books and that whicli was 
needed for your expenses at school you diverted for the piu'cliase of 
drugs ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 273 

Mr. . That is right. 

The Chairman. How long did you continue to use marijuana? 

Mr. . I used marijuana up until I was 16 years old, I think, 

wlien I stopped. 

The CiiAH!Mx\N. Then what did you do ? 

Mr. . Started sniffing heroin. 

The Chairman. Started sniffing heroin? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. How long did you continue that? 

Mr. . Approximately a month. 

The Chairman. And following the month, what did you do? 

Mr. . Started shooting it, main-lining. 

The Chairman. That is to say, shooting it into the veins? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you know of others who were doing the same 
thing ? 

Mr. . Yes, I knew of others doing the same thing. 

The Chairman. When you were using marijuana, were you at- 
tending the school sessions then ? 

INIr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Were others at the school using it? 

Mr. . There were a number. 

The Chairman. And about what proportion of the students? 

Mr. . Well, at that time it was a very small proportion. 

Right now I don't know exactly hov7 much because it is sure to be 
more with the current wave. 

The Chairman. It did increase from the time you first learned about 
others using it? 

Mr. . It increased to a certain extent, yes. 

The Chairman. What I am trying to get at is what proportion of 
the student body, if you know, was using it at the most. 

Mr. . I couldn't accurately say, but it was quite a dent on 

the population of the school. 

The Chairman. Can you give us any approximation at all? 

Mr. . Thirty-five to 40 percent. 

The Chairman. Thirty-five to 40 percent of the student body. 

Senator Wiley. Marijuana? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Were these "reefers" being sold at many different 
places around the school? 

Mr. . I purchased no "reefers" from anywhere around the 

school. 

The Chahjman. Were there many different people selling it on the 
street? 

Mr. . There was quite a few. 

The Chairman. Was it being smoked by you in company with 
others in groups at any time ? 

Mr. . The only time that I would use marijuana with asso- 
ciates would be more for the financial aspects of the thing where 
I didn't have enough money to do for myself, but if I could help it, 
I would smoke it alone and go so far as to shun company to smoke 
it alone. 



274 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Go so far as to shun company in order to smoke ity 
but when you did not have the "reefers'' always, you then went in 
company with others and smoked it with them >. Are we to under- 
stand that ? 

Mr. . Oh, yes. 

The Chairman. When you started to use heroin, and you say you 
started snifRno:, wliat quantity did vou use % How much ? 

Mr. . The first time"? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. . Approximately about a third of a capsule. 

The Chairman. A third of a capsule ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. How long did you continue using that at that rat© 
and did it increase later ? 

Mr. . I only got the desired effect the first time when I used 

a third. The second time when I tried to use a third nothing hap- 
pened. 

The Chairman. Did you use more then ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. How^ much more did you use? 

Mr. . I worked up in 6 weeks in order to get the effect, the 

original effect I got, I would have to use as much as approximately 
four capsules. 

The Chairman. Four caj^sules at one time ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. How much did they cost you ? 

Mr. . A dollar and a half. 

The Chairman. Apiece? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. You w^ere using about $6 at a time ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chaii;:ivn. Did that continue and did that increase? 

Mr. . Well, these $6 at a time I wasn't using it every day. 

It was an interval of 3 or 4 days in between. I stopped because the 
price was so high I had tolerance to the drug, I started using the 
main line because I figured it would take less to get the effect. 

The Chairman. When you started to main line it, did you use any 
less? 

Mr. . Yes ; I used less than before. 

The Chairman. Than when you were snorting it ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Did that increase then ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Did the increase follow in much the same manner 
as the marijuana did and as the sniffing did ? 

Mr. . Well, there was never too much i-ncrease in marijuana. 

The only reason I used more marijuana was to make it last longer. 
The intensity of the effect never varied with the number of "reefers.'^ 
But as far as~heroin, shooting, it increased, but not as fast as it did 
snorting it. 

The Chairman. How much did your habit increase to in the use 
of heroin ? 

Mr. . The highest point? 

The Chairman. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 275 

Mr. . I couldn't uctiuilly say, because there was no definite 

number. I used as much as I could get. Some days I would g:et hardly 
none and some days as much as I could <jet. But never had too much. 

The Chairman. What was the greatest amount that you did get? 

Mr. . I would say about 25 or 30 capsules of lieroin. 

The Chairman. Twenty-five or thirty capsules of heroin, and in 
what time did you use that ^ 

Mr. . Just before I was arrested. 

The Chairman. Just before you were arrested. You used that a 
day? 

Mr. . That was the highest I used. 

The Chaikman. How much did that cost ? 

Mr. . You couldn't exactly break it down as to a dollar and a 

half apiece, because I was getting it somewhat cheaper just before I 
came in here, but 

Tlie Chairman. What was the regular price of it ? 

Mr. . It was supposed to be a dollar and a half. 

The Chairman. A capsule? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Sometimes you got it cheaper when you bought 
larger quantities ? 

]Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. "VYlien you were buying the heroin, did you get it 
from different people? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. How did you know where to get it ? 

j\Ir. . Well, I could look at the person and tell that they used 

drugs. 

The Chairman. Did you buy it always in the same city ? 

Mv. . In the same city, yes. 

The Chairman. But at different neighborhoods ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. In going from one neighborhood to the other, how 
would you know who would be a proper one to approach in order to 
get it? 

Mr. . I would tell from his general appearance, people walk- 
ing up to him, and so on. 

The Chairman. =i)id you buy it with other addicts? Were there 
other addicts present when you bought it ? 

Mr. . I have bought it with other addicts. 

The Chairman. Did vou learn from them where they were get- 
ting it? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Was heroin being used by numbers of people in the 
city ? 

^Ir. . I really believe so. 

Senator Wiley. What was the answer ? 

The Chairman. He has reason to believe so. In any particular sec- 
tion of Chicago do you know that many have been using it ? 

Mr. . It seems more so the adolescent population, it is greater 

on the South Side, and it seems as though there is more, a worse envi- 
ronment there. I am inclined to think it would be more on the South 
Side, but I couldn't actually say. 



276 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Is there any piirticidar neighborhood that you have 
reason to believe it is being used in ? 

Mr. , I say they are all about the same. 

The Chairman. Well, what did you do in order to get the money 
with which to purcliase it ? 

Mr. . I have done various things. I have worked, and I have 

secured money by legitimate means, by borrowing it. 

The Chairman. Then when you were unable to get enough by legiti- 
mate means, did you resort to other means? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Without going into all the details, did you commit 
crimes? 

Mr. . Yes, I have. 

The Chairman. Different forms of crime? 

Mr. . Yes, various forms of petty thievery, nothing on a 

grand scale. 

Tlie Chairman. Do you know whether other boys who were in the 
neighborhood did the same thing? 

Mr. . I would be inclined to think they would, because there 

is no alternative. I mean legitimate sources of money run out, and 
there is only one thing to do, either stop using drugs or procure money 
any way you can. 

The Chairman. How about the girls? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Do you know it was being used by any number of 
girls ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. And in great quantity? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. How do you know? 

Mr. . Because I have known girls who were dope addicts. 

The Chairman. You have known girl dope addicts. Always 
colored or were they white ? 

Mr. . They were white and colored. 

The Chairman. How do you know about the white girls? 

Mr. . There is no segregation in the use of dope. 

The Chairman. No segregation in the use of dope? 

Mr. . Not that I know of. 

The Chairman. Do you mean by that that the white girls would be 
in company witli colored boys and would be using it, too ? 

Mr. ^ — . Certainly. 

The Chairman. And what would they do to get the money with 
which to buy the dope ? 

Mr. '—. Any form of crime that — anything. 

The Chairman. Did that include prostitution? 

Mr. . I have heard of it. 

The Chairman. Did you know of the white girls in the colored 
neighborhoods ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Now, what age were they ? 

Mr. . I would say they range from 16 up. 

The Chairman. From 16 up ? 

Mr. . Maybe a few 15. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 277 

Senator Wiley. Might I interrupt there? 

The Chairman. Senator Wiley. 

Senator Wiley. Do you mean that tliese white girls, these girl 
addicts, of 15, in order to get money would indulge in prostitution 
with colored men ? 

Mr. , Yes, I guess you could put it that way. It has 

happened. 

Senator Wiley. Do you think the basis of the prostitution was the 
absolute need for money in order to get the drug? 

Mr. ■- — . Yes. 

The Chairman. From your own experience and from your knowl- 
edge of the other youths and the girls, would you say that you and 
they went into crime after becoming addicted or before becoming 
addicted ? 

Mr. . After becoming addicted. 

The Chairman. Was it because of their addiction that they turned 
to crime? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You said when you got the drugs, you frequently got 
them from peddlers. 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Were there any places in Chicago where you could go 
where they were selling it on the spot in apartments or rooms ? 

Mr. , Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Were there quite a few of those ? 

Mr. ■ . There was a number. 

Mr. MosER. Were they run by people who were addicts or people 
who were just peddlers? 

Mr. . I have been to places where it is both. 

Mr. MosER. Where the owner was both 

Mr. . Maybe one place was a user and the next place the 

owner wasn't. 

Mr. MosER. Wliat was the difference between the two? 

Mr, . Well, it seemed as though one who wasn't a user, it 

seemed as though the dope fiend who came up to purchase would leave 
there as quickly as possible. 

Mr. MosER. If the owner of the place was not a user, then the dope 
fiend 

Mr. . That is what he is. 

Mr. MosER. Had to get out quickly ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. If the owner of the place was a user, he would then stay 
there and do it ; is that right ? 

]VIr. . Yes, there is no actual differentiation between the two 

types of establishment. That is a technical aspect just to try to 
differentiate them, but there is nothing that stands out. 

Mr. MosER. I believe in a conference I had witli you at one time 
you said there was an area in Chicago that was referred to as Dope- 
ville ; is that correct ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What is the nature of that ? 

Mr. ■ . It is just almost like any other place, just for the dope. 

Mr. MosER. It is generally referred to by that description? 



278 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. . Yes, the whole South Side, in some parts, or as a ^Yhole. 

Mr. MosER. Can you tell ns what streets? 

Mr. . I couldn't tell you what streets. 

The Chairman. What do the people do^ Just what causes you 
to refer to it as Dopeville? How do they go about getting it and 
what do they do in order to satisfy their habit? 

Mr. . Same as any other person — resort to crime. 

The Chairman. Will you tell us all you know about it. 

Senator Wiley. Speak into the microphone, please. 

The Chairman. Will you tell us all you know about it — the people 
in this paiticular section which you describe or refer to as Dopeville; 
what do they do ? 

Mr. . Just the use of dope is prevalent there. 

The Chairman. What do tliey do to get it? What would their 
daily routine be? 

Mr. . Getting out to make money and come back and use the 

dope, same as any dope addict. 

The Chairman. You say they go out to get the money. Are we to 
understand by that to get it by illegal means? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. And would they have regular employment or 
would they just go out and pull any job they could to get the money? 

Mr. ■ . Yes. 

The Chairman. What would they do ^ 

Mr. . Well, it would be de])ending on the necessity at the 

time, whether it was drugs or something for your actual upkeep 
besides drugs. 

The Chairman. Would they do anything to get the money? 

Mr. . Just about. 

The Chairman. And then come back. Where would they get 
the drugs then ? 

Mr. . I guess they would get the drugs from a peddler some- 
where near their home or maybe away. 

The Chairman. The peddlers that you knew — were they addicts, 
too? Were some of them or many of them or were they nonusers of 
the narcotics themselves? 

Mr. . About all I can think of now were addicts. 

The Chairman. Were both addicts and peddlers? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You told me, I believe, that you started sniffing or 
snorting. 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did vou think vou would become addicted by snorting? 

Mr. , No. ' ■ 

Mr. MosER. You thought you would not be ? 

Mr. . I wasn't aware that you could get a habit from snorting 

•dope. 

Mr. MosER. You were told that you could not ? 

Mr. . I was told I couldn't get a habit. You might get some 

sort of dependence, possibly a year or two after continual use, but as 
far as anything in the very near future, nothing at all, because it didn't 
enter directly into your blood stream. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 279 

ZMr. MosER. You knew you could get hooked by using it in the vein 'i 

Mr. — , Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You started nevertheless? Why did you start? 

Mr. . Because from snorting heroin, it took too much, and 

I figured it would be easier financially. 

Mr. MosER. You really were hooked on snorting? 

Mr. -. No, I just appreciated the feeling. 

Mr. MosER. But in order to save money you had to turn to main- 
lining ; is that correct ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairiman. Are there any further questions ? 

Senator Wiley. How old are you ? 

Mr. . Eighteen. 

Senator Wiley. You acknowledged before you went into this insti- 
tution that you were hooked? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Senator Wii>ey. If you didn't get the dope you suffered tremen- 
douslv ? 

Mr". . Yes. 

Senator Wiley. All right. Now, then, if you had known before 
you started in this damnable habit that you would have to go through 
what you have gone through, would you have started it ? 

Mr. . If I knew what I know now I never would have started 

it.^ 

Senator Wiley. Why ? 

Mr. . Because now I know exactly what it is. I have had 

the experience of it. No one can actually visualize what a dope habit 
is until they go through one. You just can't picture it because it 
isn't anything that can be pictured. It is something that you must 
feel, and when you feel it, then you know. 

Senator Wiley. All right. I think you said you thought about 
40 percent of the people in this institution where you were indulged in 
marijuana; is that right? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Senator Wiley. You have gone through this thing. How do you 
think that thing should be handled to stop it? 

Mr. . Well, it seems as though there should be some kind of 

a consultation that a teen-ager coming up can go to and someone to 
refer to when he has problems. It seems now that the majority of 
fellows and girls coming up they seem to be neglected somewhat by 
their parents' general affection. 

I think if they had some kind of institution — not institution — but 
some kind of recreational outlet in the large cities where one could 
turn to for deviation from the same monotonous things that go on, I 
don't think there would be that much use of dope. 

And then recently it seems too nnich time is given out to persons 
convicted of dope crimes and of using or peddling dope. It seems 
like it is awfully unfair because a dope addict in a sense is not actually 
i-esponsible for what he does. Yet he is treated the same. He is 
the same, but there is something off; otherwise he wouldn't be using 
it. But yet and still no court seems to take that into consideration 
and deal with him as if he is an actual handicapped individual. 



280 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

I know I would never have done any kind of wrong; if I hadn't 
been using drugs. If I was in some important position, working 
somewhere, and even went so far as to procure drugs, I committed 
some act of treason, well, I would be subject to the same penalty that 
a person that is sane and in their right mind would be, though I don't 
think I would be actually responsible because when committing the 
crime I would have no intention of committing treason against my 
country, but it is just I am looking into the short future, that I must 
have drugs. 

I think that if judges and courts w^ould take that a little bit into 
consideration and not be so hard in dealing out the time, it would 
help a lot, plus the recreational outlets and outgoing clinics that they 
have planned on, that I have read in the papers about. 

If they put those into effect, I believe it would help. 

The Chairman. Do you think the experience of other teen-agers 
is similar to yours and that they would not have embarked on a life 
of crime if it hadn't been for drugs? 

Mr. . Yes, it has to be. 

The Chairman. You said that you felt you would not have started 
on crime if it hadn't been for your desire for drugs. 

Mr. . I know I wouldn't have started on crime. 

The Chairman. You know you wouldn't? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Do you think that same thing applies to the other 
boys and girls that you have described as resorting to different crimes 
and immorality in order to get the money ? 

Mr. . Yes, not those many people would have a criminal in- 
fluence. There must be something behind it. 

Senator Wiley. I understood your reply to me was that you felt 
that the court, when there was a question of meting out punishing 
for crime, should recognize this poor devil who is a drug addict is 
different frori the guy who under normal conditions commits crime. 
Is that what you mean ? 

Mr. \ Yes. 

Senator Wiley. All right. My question went further than that. 
My question goes as to your suggestions as to how best to handle not 
the crime, but the dope. How to handle the guy that is peddling 
dope. How to handle the guy above him. 

What suggestions have you got? Because you have gone through 
this situation. What suggestion have you got that would protect the 
youngsters of tomorrow, the youngsters that haven't gotten into this 
mess? You have said, among other things, that there should be 
counselors, there should be an opportunity for them to talk to someone. 
Have you any other suggestions ? 

Mr. . All I could do is cast slight opinions on what little I 

have went through drug addiction. I am glad I didn't get that far. 
As far as actual dope addiction, I haven't scratched the surface. It 
is such a thing that there is nothing I coidd say in any way that could 
help you in any way to solve the prrblem of do])e addiction before it 
actually starts. It takes someone who knows more than I do. 

Senator Wiley. Did the police officials wink at what was going 
on ? Did the school authorities wink at it and overlook it ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IJS INTERSTATE COMMERCE 281 

My God, if there were 40 percent of them in the school doing 
this thing, they conldn't help but know it. 

Mr. : It is possible that they could have known it. 

Senator Wiley. What^ 

Mr. — . It is possible they could have known it. I don't know 

if they did. 

Senator Wiley. My question is: Did they just pass it by and say 
it was none of their business? 

Mr. . I don't think they just passed it by. 

Senator Wiley. Do you think any of the police officials got any 
take from the dope peddlers who were walking the streets and get- 
ting rid of it ? 

Mr. . Not that I know of. 

Senator Wiley. You don't know of it. O. K. 

The Chairman. In the different things you did in order to get 
the money, did you resort to diiferent kinds of crimes? I don't want 
to go into the details of it or to heap that upon you, but I want to 
find out whether you specialized in any one tiling or whether you re- 
sorted to different forms of crime. 

JNIr. . Different forms. 

The Chairman. Did you steal at home ? 

Mr. . Yes, I have done that. 

The Chairman. Shoplifting? 

Mr. . I have done that. 

The Chairman. Pocket picking ? 

Mr. . No. 

The Chairman. Any other forms ? Burglary? 

Mr. . No. 

The Chairman. Stealing from the streets, on the streets? 

Mr. . Stealing on the street ? 

The Chairman. Yes, from picking up from machines or anything 
of the kind. 

Mr. . No. 

The Chairman. How about taking from the mails ? 

Mr. . That is what I am serving time for now\ 

The Chairman. You did that, too. All right. Thank you. 

Next is Dr. Higgins. Raise your right liand, please. 

In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear the testimony you 
will give in this hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth, nothing 
but the truth ? 

Mrs. Higgins. I do. 

The Chairman. Might I ask you, Mrs. Higgins, at the outset if 
you will be good enough to keep yoin- voice up and talk distinctly 
throughout the time you are on the stand. 

TESTIMONY OF LOIS HIGGINS, CRIME PREVENTION BUREAU, 
CHICAGO, ILL. 

The Chairman. Dr. Higgins, what is your full name, please? 
Mrs. Higgins. Lois Higgins. 
The Chairman. Where are you from ? 

Mrs. Higgins. The Crime Prevention Bureau, Chicago, 111., 160 
North LaSalle. 



282 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Tlie Chairman. Thank you. For liow long liave you been connected 
tliere ? 

Mrs. HiGGiNs. I liave been with the Crime Prevention Bureau since 
it beg-an in Sei:)teinber of 1941), and I became director in 1950. 

The CiiAiKMAN. Thank you. Have yon given special attention 
cbiring the period of your work to the matter of narcotics, their dis- 
tribution and nse? 

Mrs. Higg::jS. Yon mean since the inception of the Crime Preven- 
tion Bureau ^ 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. You see, I liave been a policewoman for almost 14 
years. 

The Chairman. I was going to ask you that next. 

Mrs. HiGCHNS. Yes, When the Crime Prevention Bureau came into 
existence in September 1949 this was one of the first problems to which 
we tnrned our attention. 

Before I go further, I wonder if I might explain that we are not one 
agency alone, but that we are a cooperative, coordinated gronp of 10 
law-enforcement agencies of city, county, State, and United States 
District Attorney's Office representatives, as well as the city board of 
education and the country board of education. So we are a composite 
group. 

The Chairman. That is interesting. How long have you been en- 
gaged in this work ? 

Mrs. HiGGiNs. I have been a policewoman almost 14 years. It will 
be 14 years in September. Prior to that I was juvenile court probation 
officer of Cook County. I was also counselor in the court of domestic 
lelations for 2 years, handling unmarried mothers, the matter of 
contributing to the delinquency of children, and nonsupport of wives 
and children. I also lectui'e in criminology at Illinois University. 

Mr. MosER. When did you turn to the subject of narcotics? 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. In the Crime Prevention Bureau, you mean ? 

Mr. MosER. Yes. 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. In October 1949, the very first meeting of the Crime 
Prevention Council w^as called to order by the chairman, John Boyle. 
At that time we recognized it was not only a matter for law enforce- 
ment, but it also concerned medical and other authorities. So a meet- 
ing was held, and at this meeting Dr. Ander C. Ivey was elected chair- 
man of the physicians group. He immediately began a survey of the 
])roblem as it was in the city of Chicago and made certain recom- 
mendations. A copy of his monograph may be found in the records 
I will submit to you all. 

Mr. MosER. Will you give us some of the details you have proposed 
with regard to statistics on the growth of the narcotics traffic in 
( 'hicago. 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. I have a graph here which I have entitled "The 
Mounting Menace of Narcotics" ; and you will see that in 1948 we had 
13G under 21, 602 over 21, or a total of 738. 

In 1949 there were 203 under 21, 1,927 over 21, or a total of 2,230. 

In 1950 we had a total number of 4,437 arrests made by the city 
police, and out of that group 1,017 were 21 years or over. Kather, that 
is under 21. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 283 

So far in 1951 there have been 989 under 21 years of age. or on a 
projected hgure this wouhl show 180 percent increase in arrests in- 
Aolving those under 21 for the year of 1951. 

Senator Wiley. Arrested for what ? 

Mis. lIiCGiNs. Arrested for narcotic-hiw viohitions or when found 
to be addicts, were arrested. If they were arrested for shoplifting, 
larceny, prostitution, robbery, burghiry, since November 22, 1949—1 
am sorry, November 22, 1950 — if they were arrested on any other 
charge, they woukl be processed thi'ough our Narcotics Bureau. 

Mr. MosER. That hist cohnnn is only 6 months, isn't it ^ 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. Yes ; this represents a 6-month period. 

Mr. jNIoser. For 1951. 

Mrs. Higgins. It was com})ared to tliis for 1 year. 

The Chairman. It is almost as much in the first 6 months of 1951 
as it was in the entire year of 1950. 

Mrs. Higgins. Yes. 

Mr. JMosER. Now, have you got another chart there? 

Mrs. Higgins. Now, then, juveniles 

Senator Wiley. I would like to ask a question about that chart, 
because charts are sometimes like figures. That indicates only those 
that have been arrested? 

Mrs. Higgins. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Does it differentiate between those that are ar- 
rested for the use of heroin, cocaine, or marijuana, or what do you 
mean, arrested for what? 

Mrs. Higgins. Narcotic-law violations, but in answer to that, per- 
haps you would like to have the break-clown on the number that were 
arrested for heroin, marijuana — is that what you want, sir? 

Senator Wiley. Yes, 

Mrs. Higgins. Since November 22 when we reorganized the Nar- 
cotic Bureau to keep very adequate records — this is a copy of the 
history sheet — we have a total of 693 for the sale or possession of nar- 
cotics. Sixty percent of that, or 462 cases, represented sale or pos- 
session of heroin. Thirty percent, or 199 cases, represented sale or 
possession of marijuana. The remaining 10 percent would be dis- 
tributed among the other drugs. 

Senator Wiley. You see, you have made the point very clear. It is 
the sale or possession. 

Mrs. Higgins. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. It is not the question of those who are addicts 
involved. 

Mrs. Higgins. Not necessarily. 

Senator Wii^y. No. It is that you are simply taking those who 
have violated the law in relation to possession or sale. 

Mrs. Higgins. Yes; because addiction in itself is not an offense. 

Senator Wiley. I suppose you have other charts. 

Mrs. Higgins. Just the one which will show narcotic addiction 
among juveniles. This graph shows that in 1949 we had 34 juveniles 
brought in by the juvenile bureau of the police department, boys 
under 17 and girls under 18. In 1950 it jumped to 106. In 1951 so 
far we have 36 cases. I think that shows an improvement. 

Senator Wiley. Addiction for what? 



284 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. Addiction for any of these drugs about wliieli we 
have spoken, because boys and girls only come to the attention of the 
authorities when they have committed some offense, which would 
bring them to the attention of the authorities, because addiction in 
itselr is not an offense. 

Senator Wiley. That again is a differentiation that I think is im- 
portant, because here you have a boy that just got through testifying 
from Chicago that 40 percent of the school group — I suppose there 
were several thousand people in that high school — were using mari- 
juana. This means that only this group that has probably as a result 
of the use of drugs committed certain crimes ; that is what they were 
arrested for. 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. Of course, in juveniles we don't call them crimes, 
but they come to the attention of the authorities. 

Senator Wiley. Violations. 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. Violations. The juvenile court of Cook County, 
which is now called the family court, had 9-3 boys and girls before the 
judge in the year 1950. The youngest was a 12-year-old girl who 
confessed to acts of prostitution in order to get supplies of dope. 
Sixty percent were between 15 and 16, and the remaining group would 
be boys under 17 and girls under 18. Again the only reason they 
came to the attention of the court was they had been brought in for 
other reasons. 

Senator Wiley. "Wliat is your group doing? You say you are sort 
of a clearinghouse for a bunch of groups. What is it doing to stop 
the peddling and stop the inoculation of our youngsters in Chicago by 
this disease germ, as the doctor calls it. 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. I think we have tried to attack it on a very scientific 
and serious basis. We have improved our law enforcement so that 
the narcotic bureau of the Chicago Police Department now supplies a 
total of 47 men who work specifically on narcotics. 

Through the efforts of the crime prevention council, the chief justice 
of the municipal court of Chicago has created the first narcotics court, 
a specialized court, in the world to hear the cases of narcotic addicts. 

Senator Wiley. A^Hien was that done ? 

Mrs. HiGGiNs. April 2, 1951. We had had a demonstration project 
in the women's court for 4 months prior to that in order to determine 
whether a specialized court would be necessary and could serve a pur- 
pose, but at that time the boys' cases, 17 to 21, were still heard in the 
boys' court, because that supei-sedes the other socialized court, and 
the iury cases would still go to the criminal court. 

After 4 months, the chief justice said that the siiecialized court 
seemed to be desirable. Judge Gorman presides. We have special 
prosecutors from the assistant State's attorney for Cook County and 
the corporation counsel of the city of Chicago. 

In addition to that, the board of health has appointed a psychiatrist 
full time to work in that court. There is a social worker on hand, a 
policewoman from the crime prevention bureau is there to keep rec- 
ords, and an observer is there from our crime prevention bureau. 

We are currently working on a spot maii of the city of Chicago to 
show where the gi-eatest amount of peddlers and addicts can be 
located. 

Then we approve legislation for the State of Illinois. For a whole 
year the crime prevention bureau — and it is composed of both major 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 285 

political parties, the Eepublicans and the Democrats — for one solid 
year 

Senator Wiley. You let a Republican in out there ? 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. Yes, Senator, gladly. The president of our county 
board is a Republican. On this one question — I don't know how 
many others — but in the question of crime prevention and delinquency 
control and narcotics there is no difference. We are all working 
together on this. Everybody agrees this is a wonderful program, an 
emergency program, and we are all in it wholeheartedly and will 
continue to do it. 

Getting back to legislation, we wrote to the chairmen of both 
county central committees of the Republican and the Democratic 
Parties asking that they submit names of senators and representa- 
tives in the State legislature to serve on the committee, not only of 
narcotics, but sexual offenders and indiscriminate use of firearms; 
so that for a whole year prior of the opening of the State legislature 
in 1951 they could work on these bills. 

We asked the wardens of the county jail and State penitentiary, 
the judges who sit in the courts, police officers, the police commis- 
sioner, the State's attorney, to tell us what is wrong with the law 
as it is, how can we get it improved, please give us some idea. 

I am happy to tell you on May 3, house bill 544, which was passed 
with an emergency clause and requires more votes, was signed by His 
Excellency Governor Stevenson, of Illinois, and became effective im- 
mediately and is being used each day in the narcotics court. 

Mr. MosER. May I interrupt ? Do you mind ? 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. Not at all. 

Mr. MosER. I wish you would tell us where your department thinks 
the druGs come from into Chicago. Will you tell me briefly. 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. I asked that question of the police commissioner and 
several other people. It is the consensus of the law-enforcement 
groups that it comes from all directions, from Mexico, as Senator 
Wiley said before. 

Mr. MosER. That is marijuana? 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. That is marijuana and also other drugs. New 
Orleans, the two coasts, east and west. Not too long ago our officers 
picked up a man and woman in whose car was a suitcase full of 
marijuana. They were on their way in from Mexico. 

Mr. MosER. What seemed to be the chief outlets within the city? 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. Within the city we seem to think that the chief out- 
lets are in the area between Twelfth Street and Sixty-seventh Street 
and between Ashland Avenue and the lake. 

Mr. MosER. Have you ever heard the phrase "Dopeville" used out 
there? 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. Yes; I have heard that expression used — Dopeville, 
Dopetown, the Jungle, Junkies' Paradise, that Mr. Dumpson men- 
tioned. There are any number of terms used. 

Mr. MosER. Is that area limited to pretty much low-grade hous- 
ing? 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. That is one of the factors involved, I think, low- 
grade houses, low economic circumstances, but I think you cannot ne- 
gate the idea of personal responsibility, too. 

85277— 51— pt. 14 — —19 



286 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. One last question. The net effect of your activity out 
there is to concentrate the group of law-enforcement people on the 
subject of narcotics and bring it all into one place where it can be 
controlled ? 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. That is one of the functions, but we are engaged in 
crime prevention in all activities. We have been concentrating our 
major effort on narcotics, but that is just one portion of our work. 

Mr. MosER. You have been concentrating on narcotics in view of 
this epidemic with the teen-agers ? 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. That is right. We have had an educational pro- 
gram in the high schools for the past 20 months, the first one ad- 
dressed by the Governor, the next by the mayor. We have felt the 
only way to get respect for law enforcement is to try to get respect 
for the people trying to enforce the law. 

The Chairman. You have an aroused citizenery as a result of your 
fine efforts. 

Mrs. HiGGiNS. We certainly Iiave every one in the city, county, and 
State, insofar as law enforcement is concerned, working 100 percent. 
This is the first time that ever was done. There is no organization 
like ours in this country or in any other country, and we have had 
representatives from 12 countries who came to us in the United Na- 
tions up there and said, "Is it true that law-enforcement authorities 
can work together instead of at cross-purposes?" 

At this time I would like to tell you that was the idea of a man who 
has been a crime reporter for 32 years from that great Dougherty 
family of writers, and to see him motivating these people day after 
day and working on crime prevention is something quite wonderful, 

We of Chicago and the whole State of Illinois should appreciate it. 

The Chairman. At this time we will have to take a recess for 1 
hour. 

(Whereupon, at 12:50 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m. of 
the same day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

The Chairman. The hearing will please come to order. 

Dr. Isbell. 

Mr. MosER. We want Dr. Isbell first. 

The Chairman. In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear 
that the testimony you give shall be the truth, the whole truth, nothing 
but the truth? 

Dr. Isbell. I do. 

The Chairman. Your full name, please. 

TESTIMONY OF DR. HAREIS ISBELL, DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH, 
UNITED STATES PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE HOSPITAL, LEXING- 
TON, KY. 

Dr. Isbell. My name is Dr. Harris Isbell. 
The Chairman. I-s-b-e-1-1? 
Dr. Isbell. Yes. 

The Chairman. Now% Dr. Isbell, what is your position ? 
Dr. Isbell. I am director of research at the United States Public 
Health Service Hospital at Lexington, Ky. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 287 

The Chairman. For what period of time have you been there \ 

Dr. IsBELL. Seven years. 

The Chairman. How long have you been engaged in this work 
altogether \ 

Dr. IsBELL. At another time I was there for a period of a year. 
It makes a total of eight. 

The Chair3ian. Eight years. 

Now, Doctor, would you be good enough, please to keep your voice 
up and speak distinctly and loudly. 

Dr. IsBELL. I will try, sir. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much, sir, indeed. 

Mr. Moser ? 

Mr. Moser. Dr. Isbell, Ave would like to have you, if you will, tell 
us of the various narcotic drugs with which we are concerned here, 
telling us their nature and their bad effects, and anything else that 
you think would be of interest from a technical viewpoint. 

Dr. Isbell. The drugs with which we are concerned can be, for 
descriptive purposes, divided into two classes, the stimulants and the 
depressants. 

The stimulants are drugs which tend to keep people awake, to make 
them nervous and more irritable. Tliis particular class of drugs in- 
cludes cocaine, the drug Jrnown as benzedrene or amphetamine, the 
drug known as dexedrine, and drug known as mescaline. 

The Chairman. Just be a little slower so that we can all get it. 

Dr. Isbell. The other great class of drugs are depressants, which 
we can divide rou.ghly into two subgroups : First, the pain-relieving 
drugs, which are known as analgesics. These drugs include morphine 
and all allied compounds, such as heroin, dilaudid, codeine, pantapon, 
and so on, and the synthetic analgesic drugs which chemically are not 
related to morphine. These drugs are essentially a drug known as 
demerol, and another drug known as methodane. 

Mr. Moser. And the synthetic drugs are all habit-forming, are thev 
not? 

Dr. Isbell. Yes, sir. They all have properties similar to those of 
morphine, both with respect to pain relief, and to their addictive prop- 
erties. Even though they are chemically not related to morphine, 
they still have those properties. 

Tlie other subgroup in the depressant drugs are wdiat we might call 
sedatives or hypnotic drugs. These are drugs that tend to decrease 
nervousness or to induce sleep. There are a variety of these particu- 
lar drugs, the most important of which are the barbiturate drugs. It 
is also pronounced barbitum'rate. 

The other drugs in the group besides the barbiturates are chloryl- 
hydrate, or a Mickey Finn ; the drug known as f araldehyde ; a group 
of drugs known as the sulfonal group; the bromides, and also they 
include for descriptive purposes marijuana, among the depressant 
drugs, because it does induce drowsiness and sometimes sleep. 

Now, in the stimulant drugs, the most important drug of all, from 
the point of view of addiction — and I am speaking here of addiction 
as a compulsive use of the drug to such an extent that the person has to 
use it — cocaine is the most important of the stimulants in this respect. 

Now. cocaine is a very old drug, and in South America the Indians 
use it in the form of a leaf, which thev chew together with lime. Thev 



288 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

do this for a variety of reasons, one of tliem to enable them to work at 
high altitudes to carry loads, without incurring severe fatigue; but a 
great many of the Indians become habituated to cocaine — the cocoa 
leaf rather — and chew it continuously in large amounts, with great 
resulting physical deterioration. 

In the United States the pattern of use of cocaine is different. In 
this country it is taken either as a sniff — "snorted" is the term the 
addicts use — or more often it is taken by injection, particularly by 
intravenous injection. 

Now, cocaine, when injected intravenously, produces a very intense 
and ecstatic sensation, which the addicts themselves find very difficult 
to describe. It induces a sense of superiority of 

Mr. MosER. Dr. Isbell, do you mind if I interrupt you to ask you 
something else about that ? 

Dr. ISBELL. No. 

Mr. MosER, With regard to marijuana, it is my understanding that 
it causes a sort of temporary insanity. 

Dr. IsBELL. I will speak of tliat in a moment when I am on mari- 
juana. But it is true that in certain predisposed individuals marijuana 
will produce a toxic psychosis; the individual becomes temporarily 
insane, that is perfectly true. 

Mr. MosER. I see. Sometimes they do not remember what has been 
done ? 

Dr. Isbell. That is perfectly true also. We were speaking of 
cocaine 

Mr. MosER. We would rather direct our attention to marijuana and 
heroin, principally. 

Dr. Isbell. Marijuana and heroin ? 

Mr. Moser. Yes. 

Dr. Isbell. I might very briefly say that if the individual takes a 
sufficient amount of cocaine he also becomes temporarily insane ; sees 
things that are not there ; has delusions that people are watching him 
and persecuting him, and he may assault and injure people who are 
perfectly innocent of these things. 

Mr. Moser. And he might sometimes not know that he has done 
these things ? 

Dr. Isbell. Quite true. 

Mr. Moser. So that it is temporary insanity ? 

Dr. Isbell. One other point that is important about cocaine with 
reference to heroin and morphine, and that is that in order to prevent 
the appearance of this toxic psychosis, the addicts antidote the use of 
cocaine with heroin. Now heroin and cocaine are very good antidotes 
with each other, so that the addict is using cocaine, and he will neces- 
sarily use a great deal more heroin. 

Mr. Moser. But in either case he will become hooked very readily? 

Dr. Isbell. If he uses cocaine alone, he does not become hooked 
in the physical sense. He can stop it without suffering any physical 
symptoms. He will, of course, miss the kick of the cocaine, but he 
will not become ill as a result of discontinuing cocaine. 

Mr. Moser. With regard to heroin, will you tell us some of the 
effects upon the individual from the point of view of his psychosis 
and his personality and what effect it has on his life ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 289 

Dr. IsBELL. Well, I am not quite clear what you mean by "psy- 
chosis" ; but heroin in this country is taken, as we heard, usually in 
the beginning as a snuff, sniff, or snorting ; finally it is injected, usually 
intravenously. 

Now, in the individual who is not accustomed or who is not tolerant 
to taking heroin, the drug, when injected intravenously, induces a 
sudden dizziness, feeling of floating, light-headnesses, somewhat com- 
parable to the immediate effects of alcohol. 

The sensation is rather transient, passes away, and may be suc- 
ceeded for a short time by an increase in activity; following the in- 
crease in activity, the heroin produces a sensation of sleepiness, lassi- 
tude, and the feeling of peace. 

Now, in association with this, the drug is very likely to make the 
individual quite ill, provided he is not tolerant ; he becomes nauseated, 
he vomits, and he feels itchy, and will have to scratch, and there are 
a number of other very undesirable effects. 

Mr. MosER. How long does it take an individual to become hooked 
on heroin ? 

Dr. IsBELL. It all depends, of course, on how frequently he used the 
drug in the beginning. If he used the drug daily, then he could 
become dependent on the drug in less than 30 days, if he really used 
it every day or several times a day. 

Mr. MosER. How does he know when he is hooked ? 

Dr. IsBELL. He finds that he wakes up in the morning and his eyes 
are running, his bones are aching, and he is nauseated, and his appe- 
tite is gone, and he is intensely nervous. 

]Mr. MosER. That is Avhat he calls being sick ? 

Dr. IsBELL. That is what he calls being sick, and a dose of heroin 
abolishes it. 

Mr. JSIosER. And the only way to keep from being sick from then on 
is to have heroin ? 

Dr. IsBELL. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. What other effects does it have on his system, gen- 
erally ? What effect does it have on the sex urge, for example ? 

Dr. IsBELL. The sex urge is greatly decreased during addiction to 
any type of opiate. Now, it is, of course, paradoxical that women 
who become addicts may engage in prostitution to support their 
habits. 

Mr. MosER. But they do that only to get the money ? 

Dr. IsBELL. They do that only to get the money. 

Mr. MosER. Yes. 

Now, tell us about the barbiturates, sleeping pills. 

Dr. IsBELL. The barbiturates, or sleeping pills, are drugs that are 
used to induce drowsiness. The- effects are extremely similar to those 
of alcohol taken in very large doses. They induce motor incoordi- 
nation ; an individual staggers around. 

Mr. MosER. Are they habit-forming ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Yes; they are in both sexes; both individuals become 
emotionally dependent on them. 

He has to have them to get the sleep, and finally he becomes physi- 
cally dependent on them, and if he doesn't get them he becomes quite 



290 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. And tliat illness is quite similar to the type of illness 
they have with the others ? 

Dr. IsBELL. No; it is quite different. An individual who is taking 
large amounts of sleeping pills — I would like to say here that he 
really has to take a lot. It is not a matter of taking one or two a night ; 
it is a matter of taking eight or more per day. It is quite a large 
dosage to go into the thing that I am about to describe ; but, if he has 
been taking those large amounts and does not get the sleeping pills, 
the first thing is he becomes intensely nervous and apprehensive and 
frightened. Finally he develops twitching and jerking of his arms 
and legs, and then suddenly he has a convulsion. 

Then, later on in many cases he will become temporarily insane, a 
psychotic ; and see and hear things that are not there, and have very 
disturbing and painful halucinations. 

Mr. MosEB. Now tell us where heroin comes from. 

Dr. IsBELL. Heroin is a chemical derivative of morphine. It is 
prepared by treating morphine with a compound known as acetyl 
chloride ; in other words, you have just added a couple of molecules 
of acetic acid to the morphine. The drug is not produced in the 
United States at all. 

Mr. MosER. It is forbidden ; is it not? 

Dr. IsBELL. It is forbidden. 

Mr. MosER. It is forbidden to process it here ? 

Dr. IsBELL. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. For any purpose, medical or otherwise. 

Dr. IsBELL. It is permissible to obtain it for scientific experiments ; 
that is one exception to that rule. 

Mr. MosER. That is all. 

Dr. IsBELL. That is all that I know of. 

Mr. MosER. What country is it manufactured in the most? 

Dr. IsBELL. It is manufactured in Italy and in France, and in some 
of the Balkan countries and, I believe, in Turkey. 

Mr. MosER. Can you tell us how much is manufactured in Italy, for 
example, as compared with how much is needed there? 

Dr. IsBELL. There has been at least a tremendous overproduction 
of heroin in Italy. I think their production has amounted to at least 
150 to 200 kilos a year, whereas their medical needs are certainly no 
more than 50 kilos, probably less than 50. 

Mr. MosER. Well, that is three or four times what they need then ? 

Dr. IsBELL. At least that. 

Mr. MosER. And the rest goes out someplace ? 

Dr. IsBELL. It goes out somewhere; I don't know where. 

Mr. MosER. And you think some is manufactured illegally in 
Turkey ; is that correct ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Yes. And, perhaps, in other countries. I think that 
Mr. Anslinger could give you more information than I can. 

Mr. MosER. Yes. 

Are there often deaths caused by overdosages of these drugs ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Yes; particularly if the individual has been getting 
drugs that are greatly adulterated, say, 5 percent heroin and through 
some circumstances he gets hold of heroin which is almost pure. He 
will estimate his dose on the basis of the adulterated drug to which 
he is accustomed, and he takes too much, and will die. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 291 

Mr. MosER. Sometimes they are killed by adulteration, I suppose, 
that is poisonous, that is in the drug; is that correct? 

Dr. IsBELL. I could not give you anything except hearsay, but it is 
said that that occurs. 

Mr. INlosER. Do you find that this rule that we heard expressed that 
one addict makes another is correct; that is, it makes five more, 
perhaps ? 

Dr. IsBELL. No question that addiction spreads from person to per- 
son by contact and association with addicts. 

Mr. MosER. You would say that it is a contagious disease then ? 

Dr. IsBELL. It spreads in a similar fashion through contacts. 

Mr. MosER. Do you find that where one person has it that other 
members of his family will become addicted ? 

Dr. IsBELL. That pattern is very frequently seen. I have known a 
number of patients whose families were acldicted; in fact, I have 
known one in which every member of a family was addicted. 

Mr. MosER. The whole family ? How many members ? 

Dr. IsBELL. There were, I believe, five ; father, mother, one daughter, 
and two brothers. 

Mr. MosER. Now, at Lexington you treat these addicts and try to 
cure them. How long does it take before you feel that they are free to 
go back to society, the minimum time ? 

Dr. IsBELL. The minimum time we think is at least 41/^ months 
before they are all ready to go out. 

Mr. MosER. In a lot of institutions we understand, especially private 
cure institutions, they keep them there just until they are not using 
the drug any more. What do you think about that ? 

Dr. IsBELL. That is just a waste of time and money because it 
requires even from the physical point of view — because from the 
physical point of view it requires 2 or 3 months to recover from 
addiction of heroin. 

Mr. MosER. We have had testimony from some addicts who say that 
they have gone to private institutions and paid from $300 to $400 
a week for the cure, and they just get reduced down so that they are 
not using the drugs. 'V\^iat do you think of that kind of approach ? 

Dr. IsBELL. Well, it is a very poor approach. It would not be at 
all satisfactory from the treatment point of view unless one can keep 
these patients for a sufficient length of time to attempt to carry out 
some sort of rehabilitating program. If you do not do that, you are 
not going to get anywhere. 

JVIi-. MosER. Besides overcoming the physical dependency, what 
else has to be done with the patient ? 

Dr. IsBELL. The patient has to reorient all of his habits and his 
thinking. He has to learn to erft, work, and sleep without resorting 
to the crutch of drugs. He must attempt, if possible, to find reasons, 
if they exist — any particular reason exists — why he does use drugs 
in the beginning, and get rid of that cause for taking drugs. I am 
thinking largely of the psychoneurotic individuals in saying this. 

Mr. MosER. Well, in other words, it requires a psychological ad- 
justment as well as a physical adjustment; is that correct? 

Dr. IsBELL, That is right; it requires both types of adjustment, 
and the psychological adjustment is the most difficult to make. 

Mr. MosER. That is all. 



292 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chatrmajst. Senator Wiley, any questions ? 

Senator Wiley. No questions. 

The Chairman. Doctor, we are very much obliged to you indeed, 
sir. 

Dr. IsBELL. Thank you very much. 

The Chairman. Mr. Deimel? In the presence of Almighty God, 
do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth? 

Mr. Deimal. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Deimal, I think we can, in accordance with 
your wishes, abbreviate this somewhat. 

First of all, will you give us your full name and address ? 

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES J. DEIMEL, DETROIT, MICH. 

Mr. Deimal. My name is Charles J. Deimal; 1994 East Grand 
Boulevard, Detroit, Mich. 

The Chairman. Just talk a little slower and into the microphone. 
Your name is Charles J. 

Mr. Deimel. Deimel — D-e-i-m-e-1. 

The Chairman. D-e-i-m-e-1 ? 

Mr. Deimel. That is right, sir. 

The Chairman. And your address? 

Mr. Deimel. 1994 East Grand Boulevard, Detroit, Mich. 

The Chairman. Mr. Deimel, I think you have been appointed and 
have served as the foreman of a grand jury in Detroit ? 

JNIr. Deimel. I have, sir. 

The Chairman. For what period ? 

Mr. Deimel. Well, from January 3, and we are still sitting, but 
we finislied up on the narcotics on March 14. 

The Chairman. Yes. During your term of service, special atten- 
tion was given to the study of narcotics — was it? — and a report ren- 
dered by the grand jury ? 

Mr. Deimel. Yes. sir; that is right. 

The Chairman. We would like very much to have th?^t report in- 
corporated in our record, so that we can have the use of it, and it 
w^ould be available for our reference and use. Would you kindly 
present it? 

Mr. Deimel. This report is certified by the clerk's office in De- 
troit. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Deimel, I think that will suffice then 
for the time being. 

Mr. Deimel. Thank you very much. 

The Chairman. Thank you ever so much. 

(The report of the Federal grand jury at Detroit, Mich., was marked 
"Exhibit 1" and is on file with the committee.) 

The Chairman. Our next witness is Mr. Darby. 

Will you kindly be sworn? In the presence of Almighty God, do 
you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ? 

Mr. Darby. I do. 

The Chairman. Now, your name is G. B, Darby ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMRTERCE 293 

TESTIMONY OF G. B. DARBY, CHICAGO, ILL. 

Mr. Darby. G. B. Darby. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Darby. You are of the South Side 
Community Center? 

Mr. Darby. I am of the South Side Community Committee. 

The Chairiman. The committee of 

Mr. Darby. Of Chicago. 

The Chairman. Of Chicago ? 

Mr. Darby. Illinois. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Darby. And also associate director of the Chicago area project, 
and a member of the staff of the Institute for Juvenile Kesearch. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Darby. Sociology department. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Darby, have you and your associates engaged in this important 
work rendered a report and submitted recommendations in connection 
with the narcotics problem? 

Mr. Darby. Yes, we have. 

The Chairman. Would you produce that set of recommendations? 

Mr. Darby. I don't have this report all thrown together, because 
it was at a late hour yesterday that I knew I was coming here. 

The Chairman. I see. 

Mr. Darby. And if you will bear with me just a moment or so, I will 
be most happy to give you some of the structure of the organization 
and some of tlie things that have grown out of it. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. Well, what we have is a descriptive state- 
ment as to the organization, and we were anxious to get reduced to 
written form the recommendations. 

Mr. Darby. The recommendations that we arrived at as the first 
objectives of a citizens group was to stimulate and arouse and activate 
citizens. 

The Chairman. First of all, may I ask. you, are they in written 
form ? 

Mr. Darby. Yes, this is in written form. 

The Chairman. What I was going to ask you was if you would be 
good enough to file it with us so that we could have the entire set of 
recommendations included in the record. 

Mr. Darby. All right. 

The Chairman. With that, Mr. Darby, we can excuse you now for 
the time being. 

In addition to the recommendations, was there any further report 
made to the court in Chicago or any other statement submitted by you ? 

Mr. Darby. Yes. There have been a number of statements that 
have been made not only to the court but to the Governor of the State, 
and there have been radio programs. 

The Chairman. All right. Senator Wiley asked certain questions 
today in regard to just what the possible reniedy is. Will you give 
us just the benefit of your knowledge and views on that, please? 

Mr. Darby. Well, we believe that this problem can be best treated 
at the base. We have faith in our belief that the American citizen 
and the home, if activated to a point of an understanding of its re- 



294 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIVUVIERCE 

sponsibilities, that it can deal with the problem of the use of nar- 
cotics in America. 

We have drawn into this picture the institutions that serve our 
community in an expressional way, and particularly have we drawn 
in the youth of the community, because it is the youth of the com- 
munity in our high schools who were victimized by the persons from 
outside of the community who came into the community and used 
the playgrounds as contacts for the sale of dope. 

We involved these youngsters in a letter-writing contest about how 
and why we must get rid of dope. I have one or two of those letters 
here that I would like to read. 

The Chairman. Well, now, we are going to ask you to liave those 
made available. 

Mr. Darby. Or I will submit it to you and give you the benefit of 
the thinking of the youth. 

The Chairman. Very good. We are going to ask you to suspend 
so that for the time being you can let us have those letters, and you 
may submit them to the reporter, if you please. 

Mr. Darby. Then we have drawn into the picture the persons in 
the community to the tune of about 4,000 volunteer people and have 
used the office of the South Side Community Committee, which is a 
peoples organization, and a unit of this Chicago project, as an infor- 
mational center so that persons in the community might turn to a 
place where their fears could be allayed, and where they could be di- 
rected to the proper places to send their children for information 
pertaining to treatment. 

The Chairman. Good. I think that will suffice for the time being. 
We certainly are obliged to you. If you will, please leave those data. 

(The document entitled "The Proposed 'Dope Must Go' Program of 
the Southside Community Committee" was marked "Exhibit 2" and 
is on file with the committee. 

(The document entitled " 'Dope Must Go' Report" was marked 
"Exhibit 2" and is on file with the committee.) 

The Chairman. The next witness we have is a patient at the Lexing- 
ton Hospital, and we would remind all that the same conditions apply 
as were previously described. 

Kindly raise your right hand. In the presence of Almighty God, 
do you swear the testimony you shall give will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth? 

Miss . I do. 

The Chairman. You have been asked as to your own desires and 
wishes regarding television. Are we to understand that you prefer 
not to be televised ? 

TESTIMONY OF MISS 



Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. Would you have any objection to your hands being 
televised ? 

Miss . I don't think that I would, but being I am a prisoner 

of the government I don't think they would allow it. 

The Chairman. So that your wishes are that there will be no tele- 
vision insofar as you are concerned ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COJVIMERCE 295 

The Chairman. All right, fine. 

Now, what is your age? 

Miss . Twenty-one. 

The Chairman. Have you been married ? 

Miss . Ye^. 

The Chairman. From what city do you come? 

Miss . Cincinnati, Ohio. 

The Chairman. How long did you live in Cincinnati ? 

Miss « . All my life up until about 4 years ago. 

The Chairman. Have you been living with your husband in the 
recent past ? 

Miss . Xo, I haven't. 

The Chairman. What occupation did you have? 

Miss . I am a vocalist. 

The Chairman. Vocalist? Have you appeared in shows? 

Miss — . Yes. 

The Chairman. At any one location or traveling? 

Miss . Traveling. 

The Chairman. For what period of the time were you engaged in 
that work ? 

Miss . For about 3 years. 

The Chairman. Three years? Have you used narcotics? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. At what age did you begin ? 

Miss . I started smoking marijuana between the age of 15 

and 16. 

The Chairman. Wliat led you to its use ; how did you begin ? 

Miss . Well, about a dozen or more of my associates in high 

school were smoking marijuana. 

The Chairman. Were they of the same age as yourself approxi- 
mately ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. What age were you? 

Miss . About 16. 

The Chairman. About 16 then. How frequently did you use its 

Miss . Well, just on parties and special occasions. 

The Chairman. What did you pay for it? 

Miss . Well, at the time I wasn't paying anything for mari- 
juana; it was given to me. 

The Chairman. Did you later change from the use of marijuana 
and use any other drug-s? 

Miss . Yes, heroin. 

The Chairman. Heroin. And when? 

Miss . I guess I had smoked marijuana for a year when I 

started using heroin. 

The Chairman. What led up to its use by you? 

Miss . Well, a lot of show people do use drugs, and my asso- 
ciates with show people led me to use drugs. 

The Chairman. In beginning the use of heroin, in what manner did 
you use it ? 

Miss . I first used it with a syringe in my skin. 

The Chairman. So-called skin popping? 

Miss . Skin popping. 



296 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Yes. Did you ever use it by sniffing? 

Miss . No, I have, but that is not how I started. 

The Chaieman. You started in by the skin popping ? 

Miss ■ . Yes. 

The Chairman, How long did you use it in that way ? 

Miss . I guess about 8 months. 

The Chairman. To what extent did you use it? 

Miss . Not too often; just on special occasions. 

The Chairman. Did you use it alone or in company with others? 

Miss . Usually in company of others, because at the time I 

was young and I wanted to impress these older people that I was older, 
and so I more or less followed the crowd. 

Tlie Chairman. As a mutter of fact, did you attempt to falsify your 
age in order to get into show business ? 

Miss . Yes, I did; yes. 

The Chairman. Now, after having started to use it in this way by 
skin popping, ana later through intravenously — you did it that way, 
did you not ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. To what extent did you form the habit? How 
much were you using later on ? 

Miss . Twelve to fifteen capsules of heroin a day, and later 

on after the so-called kick left the heroin, I started mixing it with 
cocaine, and my habit then became up to about 25 capsules a day. 

The Chairman. What would be the cost of those capsules? 

Miss . Anywhere from $30 to $70 or $80 a day. 

The Chairman. How did you get the money with which to buy 
that much ? 

Miss . Well, I committed crimes naturally; prostitution. 

The Chairman. Prostitution, and what else? 

Miss . Confidence. 

The Chairman. Confidence games? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. Well, now, when you say you committed crimes, 
did you have anything to do with checks, the mails ? 

Miss . I have, yes, at one time or another. 

The Chairman. In what way would you get the checks ? 

Miss , They were probably stolen and sold to me for maybe 

half or a third of the amount they were actually worth. I would 
forge them and then cash them. 

The Chairman. Of the face value of the check, about half of it, 
and then forge the checks and cash them ? How would it work if the 
checks were made payable to a man? 

Miss . Well, unf oj'tunately I never had a check that was made 

to a man. I mean, I always saw to it that it was made to a woman. 

The Chairman. You got the checks made payable to women, and 
then you cashed them ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you have anybody working with you at all ? 

Miss . No. 

The Chairman. Well, now, in regard to the other methods you 
say, both in prostitution and in confidence games — let us confine our 
attention for the moment to the latter, to the confidence game — 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COJVEVIERCE 297 

will you give us just a little more description as to just how you would 
operate ? 

Miss . Well, in other words, you make a promise to a man 

in return for the money that he is giving you, which you never keep. 
The Chairman. In other words, you would either pick up or meet 
with a man and have an arrangement with him ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. Well, how would you manage to accomplish the 
purpose and get the money ? 

Miss . Well, I mean just by taking time long enougli to talk 

to him. 

The Chairman. Yes, but then after you took time long enough to 
talk to him what would you do ? 

Miss . Gain his confidence. 

The Chairman. Yes. And then what ? 

Miss . Take his money and go. 

The Chairman. Yes. But now, after you took his money what 
would you do often or sometimes ? 

Miss . Well, I mean in confidence that is all there is to it. 

The Chairman. All right. Now, would you on any other occasions 
use any drops ? 

Miss . Yes, I have used knock-out drops. 

The Chairman. Knock-out drops. Would you give some detail as 
to the way in which you would use them ? 

Miss . In other words, the idea is to lure a man into a spot 

where you and he can drink privately, and during your drinking 
proceedings you put chlorophene in his drink, and after it puts him 
to sleep you take his money. 

The Chairman. For what period then would he be out? 

Miss . About 9 hours. 

The Chairman. Nine hours ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. Of course, in the meantime you would 

Miss . I am gone. [Laughter.] 

Senator Wiley. Gone with the wind or the money ? [Laughter.] 

The Chairman. What amounts would you get in that way ? 

Miss . Well, I mean I have gotten up to $1,600 at one time. 

The Chairman. Up to $1,600 at one time. What did you use the 
money for? 

Miss . Drugs. 

The Chairman. Was that the purpose of your operating in the 
manner in v/hich you described ? 

Miss . Definitely; definitely. 

The Chairman. Before you got the drug habit, had you engaged 
in crime before then? 

Miss . No. 

The Chairman. Would you say that your getting into criminal 
activities was the result of your drug habit ? 

Miss . Definitely. 

Tlie Chairman. Well, in what different cities did you operate or 
to what cities did you go ? 

Miss . Mostly the Midwest cities. 

The Chairman. And that would include what ? 



298 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Miss — — — . Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago, New York 

The Chaikman. Of course. New York would not be very Midwest. 

Miss . Pittsburgh. 

The Chairman. Pittsburgh, New York. Did you go any place 
in the South? 

Miss . I have been in the South ; yes. 

The Chairman. Did you get any drugs in any place in the South? 

Miss . No. 

The Chairman. Now, in going from one of these cities to another, 
you were on the habit then, were you ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. How would you know when you went into a new 
city where to get the drugs ? 

Miss . Well, I mean you don't always know just where to go. 

The Chairman. How did you find out ? 

Miss . Usually by trying to find another addict. 

The Chairman. By trying to find another addict. In what section — 
to what section of the city would you usually go ? 

Miss . Colored. 

The Chairman. Colored section. Upon going to the colored section 
what did you do ? 

Miss . Well, usually, I mean you have to judge by looking at 

a person if he would know anything about drugs, and after proving 
to him that you are an addict by showing your scars made by the 
needle, and convincing him that you are an addict, you could probably 
buy drugs then. 

The Chairman. Did you follow that course ? 

Miss . Yes, I did. 

The Chairman. Do you have marks on your arms ? 

Miss . Yes, I do. 

The Chairman. IVliat is the condition of your veins in your arms? 

Miss . At the present time pretty good. 

The Chairman. But you do bear scars? 

Miss ■ . Yes. 

The Chairman. From the injections in the arms? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. I see. 

Now, what did you find out with regard to the amount of supply 
of the drugs in these various cities as to whether it was plentiful or 
otherwise ? 

JMiss . Well, I mean in some cities it is hard to get and other 

cities it is not. 

The Chairman. Would there be a difference in price? 

Miss . Yes, definitely. 

The Chairman. What would be the price range ? 

Miss . Anywhere from a dollar a capsule to $4 a capsule. 

The Chairman. And you were using up to 25 ? 

Miss . Twenty-five, yes. 

The Chairman. Tell us the cities, as best you can recall, and the 
prices that prevail for them. 

Miss . In Cincinnati, my home town, you can buy a capsule 

of heroin there for $3 or $4. It all depends how well you know the 
]ieople. In Cleveland, $2 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 299 

The ChxUrman. Wlieii was tliat? 

Miss . When ? 

The Chairman. Just about, as of what time? 

Miss . This was about 5 months ago. 

The Chairmax. Up until 5 months ago ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. All right, go on. 

Miss . In Cleveland, the last time I w^as there was some time 

last year, I paid 21/^ dollars for a capsule of heroin. 

In New York it is a dollar, and in Chicago it is 2i/2 dollars a capsule. 

The Chairman. How about in Pittsburgh, do you recall'^ 

Miss . Two-and-a-half dollars. 

The Chairman. Two-and-a-half. Can you give us any more de- 
tail as to whether the supply is plentiful in any of those places, other 
than that which is reflected by the purchase price? 

Miss -. Well, usually any place where drugs are cheaper, 

that is where it is the most plentiful. 

The Chairman. In going into the cities where you had to learn the 
new source, did you experience any great difficulty ? 

Miss . Sometimes, yes. 

The Chairman. What would you do in those instances? 

Miss . Well, I mean I always had enough drugs to hold me 

over just in case that I wouldn't make a connection right away. 
Sooner or later, if you are a drug addict and you want a shot bad 
enough, you will find a connection. 

The Chairman. In going into the colored section, would you not be 
somewhat conspicuous ? 

Miss . In some cities. 

The Chairman. ^Vliat would you do in order to avoid detection or 
in order to accomplish what you were there for ? 

Miss . Well, I mean, you would just go sit in a bar. 

The Chairman. Sit in a bar ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. And then would you attempt to spot somebody ? 

Miss . Yes, observe the people that come in. 

The Chairman. Did you usually succeed in finding somebody ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. Wliat led up to your present sentence ? 

Miss . I was arrested in Cincinnati, Ohio, for possession of 

drugs 4 months ago, February 26, 1951. I had only been back in town 
for about 3 or 4 weeks, and I believe that someone "fingered" me. 

The Chairman. Had you taken up with anybody ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. Before that ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. Now, in regard to your association with peddlers 
or your contacts with them, did you learn of many different peddlers ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. In the different cities? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. Were they usually addicts or nonaddicts? 

Miss . I say it is about 50-50. 



300 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. In the cases of the addicts, have you reason to 
believe that they were pushing the sales in order to get money for the 
habit themselves? 

Miss . Yes, the ones that were addicted. 

The Chairman. Have you any knowledge of the use of "hot shots" ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. Will you tell us about that, please. 

Miss . Well, from what I understand, a "hot shot" contains 

poison ; it is sold under the pretense that it is drugs ; it is usually given 
to a person because they have informed on somebody else. 

The Chairman. Do you know of any instances where persons have 
died from the use of it ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. Wliat information have you as to that ? 

Miss . Well, no direct information. 

The Chairman. I mean, just the reports that you received. 

Miss . Well, I just knew of an incident that a fellow was 

arrested and turned loose when he had drugs in his possession. And 
after he was turned loose there was about 15 peddlers that went to 
jail behind him. 

The Chairman. Then what happened ? 

Miss . He got a "hot shot." 

The Chairman. Then what happened ? 

Miss . He died. [Laughter.] 

The Chairman. That was the end of that story. 

Now, you stated before that you had information while at school 
or thereafter as to the use of it by persons of school age. 

Miss . Yes. I had during school, I had heard of heroin, but 

I never participated. 

The Chairman. That is right. But what information have you as 
to its use at that time by any of the groups ? Do you know of any of 
the 2:roups in the schools ? 

Miss . Not that were addicted to drugs, no. 

The Chairman. I did not mean the groups addicted, but I meant 
the use of them among the members of the groups. 

Miss . No, only marijuana. 

The Chairman. Marijuana? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. Have you any information as to the use of mari- 
juana by any of the groups? 

Miss . In school, yes. 

The Chairman. Now, you referred some time ago to the use of the 
mixture of cocaine and heroin. 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Just tell us about that. 

Miss . Well, a lot of addicts — I don't know what percentage 

it would be — when they first start using heroin, it makes you high. 
After you have been addicted for quite a while, the kick leaves it, and 
you become unsatisfied, so by mixing the cocaine with the heroin, you 
get a kick again. The heroin — I mean the cocaine furnishes you the 
kick that the heroin now does not give you. 

The Chairman. Have vou attempted to get off the habit at any 
time? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 301 

Miss . Yes, I liave tried cold tnrkey ; in other words, witliout 

any medication at all, and it doesn't work. 

The Chairman. Is your reaction during the withdrawal period 
quite severe ? 

Miss . Yes, it is. 

The Chairman. Are you in very much distress ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. Do you think that young people would be influ- 
enced at all in avoiding the beginning of the habit if they knew 
of the 

Miss . Yes, I sincerely do. 

The Chairman. What can you tell us about that? 

Miss . Well, I know that when I first started using heroin, 

that I had no idea it would make a slave out of me or it would make 
me commit the crimes that I have. I didn't know that in due time 
without the use of it I would become severely sick. If I had known 
these things I don't believe that I would have been on drugs ; I don't 
believe that I would have committed any of the crimes that I have. I 
think a good idea would be in schools, if they could give movies and 
lectures on addiction, and show the results, and just what it does do 
to a person and what it drives them to doing, I think that it would be 
avoided. 

The Chairman. The after effects are quite severe and upsetting. 

Miss . Yes, they are. When you are in bad need of a shot 

and you have hot and cold sweats, vomiting and twitching, cramps, 
diarrhea ; I don't think there is any sickness similar to the withdrawal 
of drugs. 

The Chairman. Do you feel you are off it now ? 

Miss . Do I what? 

The Chairman. Do you feel you are off it now for good ? 

Miss ^. I certainly do. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Senator Wiley ? 

Senator Wiley. Have you any other suggestions as to saving the 
girls hereafter from going that long trail that you traveled ? 

Miss . Do I have any other idea ? 

Senator Wilet. Yes. 

Miss . No, I don't think so. I think that the best idea that 

I have in mind is like I said, to have lectures and movies in school. 

Senator Wiley. Have you any idea how many youngsters in Cin- 
cinnati — have you any approximation, judgment, as to how many 
youngsters in the city of Cincinnati — have been contaminated by mari- 
juana? 

Miss . I think quite a few. At one time in fraternities and 

sororities it was a big deal for them to drink whisky. Now, I think 
it is marijuana, because in almost any city, large or small, marijuana 
is plentiful, and they read about it, they hear about ; it sounds exciting, 
and so they use it. 

Senator Wiley. I want to get into that phase of it because you said 
in cities large or small. From your own observation have you noticed 
that this marijuana habit has been reaching out through the various 
dopesters into the small villages and cities ? 

Miss . Yes, I think so. 

85277— 51— pt. 14 20 



302 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Wiley. Tell me this, how did you first get to smoking, using 
marijuana? 

Miss . By hearing other children talk of doing it. 

Senator Wiley. All right. Then, what was it in the nature of, a 
cigarette ? 

Miss . Yes. 

Senator Wiley. How did you get the cigarette ? 

Miss . How did I get the reefer ? 

Senator Wiley. Yes. 

Miss . Well, at first it was given to me. 

Senator Wiley. By whom ? 

Miss . By another schoolmate. 

Senator Wiley. This was a girl ? 

Miss . Yes. 

Senator Wiley. About your own age ? 

Miss . Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Fifteen, sixteen years of age ? 

Miss ■—. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Then, after that she told you where to buy them? 

Miss . No. As long as I was buying marijuana in Cincinnati 

there was always a middleman; I mean, in other words, I gave my 
money to her ; she gave her money to somebody else, and they bought 
it for her. 

Senator Wiley. And that was in a high school ? 

Miss . Yes. 

Senator Wiley. How many attended that high school ? 

Miss . Well, quite a few. I mean it was a large higli school. 

Senator Wiley. A thousand? 

Miss . Or more, yes. 

Senator Wiley. More than that. Do you want to estimate how 
many were using marijuana in that institution? 

Miss . Well, to my knowledge I only knew of a group of about 

12 to 15 that were smoking marijuana. 

Senator Wiley. That is to your knowledge. Have you any other 
information? That is your personal knowledge. Would you say 
that smoking marijuana was limited to only 12 out of that 1,500? 

Miss . I mean only through rumors have I heard that there 

were children smoking marijuana. 

Senator Wiley. How much did you pay for that marijuana? 

Miss . Fifty cents a stick. 

Senator Wiley. A stick ? That means one cigarette ? 

Miss . Yes. 

Senator Wiley. How big was it? 

Miss . About as big as my little finger. It is about half the 

size of a cigarette in width. 

Senator Wiley. How many of them did you say you got into the 
habit of consuming a day ? 

Miss . Well, marijuana is not habit-forming. 

Senator Wiley. No ; but how many did you consume a day ? 

Miss . Well, it wasn't a matter of smoking how many a day. 

Like I said, we only smoked them on parties and special occasions. 
Maybe I would one night, I might only smoke one; maybe the next 
time I would smoke six. 



ORGANIZED CRIATE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 303 

Senator Wiley. Then, how long after that was it that you finally 
fell for heroin? 

Miss — . I gness it was a period of about 9 to 10 months. 

Senator Wiley. Who got the heroin for you? 

Miss . Well, as I said, when I was first introduced to nar- 
cotics it was through people that were in show business, and someone 
that was on a show with me was using heroin, and the first time I 
used it, he gave it to me. 

Senator Wiley. I think that is all. 
The Chairman. Senator Kefauver? 

Senator Kefauaer. How much is the top cost of your daily amount 
that vou took, the amount you took daily at its peak? Did you give 
that? 

Miss . Yes. 

Senator Kefauver. How much was it? 

Miss . I would say my habit ranges any place from $30 to $80 

a day. Of course, when you are on "speed balls," that is, cocaine and 
heroin, there is no particular amount that you require any day, because 
your system always wants it. As much money as you can get that is as 
much 'money as you will use to shoot in you. 
Senator Kefaitv^er. As high as $80 a day? 

Miss . Yes. 

Senator Kefauver. And you would do anything to get the money ? 

Miss -. Yes, anything. I mean when you are sick and you 

want drugs, you will get the money one way or another. 

Senator Kefauver. Othei- people use more than that ? I mean other 
people have to spend more than $80 a day ? 

Miss . I don't know. 

Senator Kefaumsr. How did you make the transition from mari- 
juana to heroin? 

Miss . Well, as I said, I was young and a thrillseeker, and 

using marijuana gave me a thrill at first, but after that I got tired, 
and when 1 had heard about heroin, and then being around it and in 
its environnient, naturally I wanted to try that, too. 

Senator Kefauver. But you said marijuana was not habit-forming, 
but it does, if you stay with marijuana long enough, why then it does — - 
you do usually get into the heroin, do you not, and other drugs ? That 
is, one leads to the other. 

Miss . Well, I know in my case it did. 

Senator Kefauver. That is the experience you have had with 
friends also, is it not ? 

Miss . In some cases, yes; and in some cases, no; because I 

have friends that were smoking marijuana the same time I was that 
would be shocked if they knew I "^as using drugs. 

Senator Kefauver. Mr. Chairman, I suppose the doctors have 
talked about the treatment, or is that some other matter? 

The Chairman. Yes, Senator, we have more testimony coming on 
that score, too. 

Senator Kefauver. That is all. 
The Chairman. Thank you. 

Is it not true that the greatest danger, in your opinion, from mari- 
juana, is the fact that it leads to the use of the other drugs? Do you 
aerree with that? 



304 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Miss . Yes, I tliink that is the greatest danger of marijuana, 

because I don't think that marijuana in itself can hurt you. 

The Chairman. Just one other question I would like to ask you. 
In regard to the man that you are associated with, was he on the habit? 
Was he an addict ? How did that happen ; how did that happen ? 

Miss • . Well, which man are you speaking of on the — ■ — 

The Chairman, The one, your boy friend, with whom you were 
shortly before 3'our arrest. 

Miss . Yes, he was associated with drugs. 

The Chairman. He was. Was he a peddler? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. How does he operate? 

Miss . Well, what do you mean? I mean he just sold drugs, 

that is all. 

The Chairman. Did he supply you with them ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. What I wanted to bring out is whether or not you 
were compelled always to go to purchase it yourself or whether you 
had this other means of acquiring a sufficient quantity. 

Miss . TVeli, naturally, when my boy friend was a peddler I 

didn't have to go any place else to get it. 

The Chairman. When you were at the peak of the habit what did 
you have constantly in mind ? 

Miss . To get off drugs. 

The Chairman. To get off drugs, but you were still wanting and 
trying to satisfy the habit when you were at its peak ? 

Miss — ■ . Yes. I think if I had known that I could voluntarily 

go to Lexington, Ky.. and take a cure, I think I would have gone. 
That is the trouble. JMost addicts have the wrong conception of how 
you are to be admittted to the Lexington Hospital. I had the idea 
that you had to write here to Washington and have permission, and 
so on and so forth; but, I think, that is another good idea if people, 
addicts, would realize that they can be cured by volunteering into the 
hospital, that there would be more cured addicts than there are. 

The Chairman. Very good. All right. I think that will be all. 

Senator Kefauver. Would she explain what the cold turkey was? 
Was that jnst giving up drugs entirely without doing any medication, 
without any medication? Is that what you mean by "cold turkey"? 

Miss . By "cold turkey" I mean to withdraw all drugs, not 

substitute it with anything, and just be on complete withdrawal. 

Senator Wiley, Tried to do it through will power, in other words? 

Miss . Yes, and it is impossible physically. 

Senator Kefaus^er. So you do have to have some medication and a 
gradual tapering off ? 

Miss ■ . Yes. 

Senator Kefauver. You insist that marijuana is not habit-forming, 
and I know you do not want to leave any improper impression with 
people. But you certainly would not recommend that anybody start 
using marijuana, would you? 

Miss . No, I certainly wouldn't. 

Senator Kefauver. Because the chances are it is going to get them 
into trouble in one way or the other. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 305 

Miss . As I said, I don't believe that marijuana is habit- 
forming, but in my case it did lead me to a more severe thing, which 
is using drugs. 

Senator Kefauver. In other words, you are playing with fire if 
you play with marijuana? 

Miss . That is right. 

Senator Kefauver. All right. That is all. 

The Chairman. All right, that is all. Thank you very much. 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. The next person is an addict, and the same con- 
ditions apply. 

Raise your right hand. In the presence of Almighty God, do you 
swear the testimony you will give will be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth ? 

Mr. , I do. 

The Chairman. As in the case of the previous witnesses we have 
indicated that the patient would not be televised unless there was 
some other particular reason. That is your wish also ? 



TESTBIONY OF 



Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, that regulation will be observed in your case. 

Now, Mr. Moser, will you kindly proceed, please. First of all, your 
age? 

Mr. . Nineteen. 

The Chairman. Nineteen. 

Mr. MosER. Where do you come from ? 

Mr. . New York City. 

Mr. MosER. You come from Brooklyn ? 

Mr. . Brooklyn ; that is correct. 

Mr. MosER. Where did you go to school ? 

Mr. . In Brooklyn. 

Mr. Moser. Did you go to a high school in Brooklyn ? 

Mr. . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. Did vou graduate? 

Mr. . No, I didn't. 

Mr. MosER. How did you happen to leave? 

Mr. . Through narcotics. 

Mr. MosER. Did you do well at school ? 

Mr. . Fairly well. 

The Chairman. Could I ask you just to interrupt long enough, 
would you listen to the question and then answer slowly and distinctly 
and loudly so that all may hear you. Thank you very much. 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. You left in your senior year, did you not ? 

Mr. . That is correct. 

Mr. Moser. What had been your plans before you left school? 

Mr. . Well, I was playing basketball, and I was offered a 

scholarship to go to college when I finished my senior year. 

Mr. MosER. You had a college scholarship ? 

Mr. . Yes, that is correct. 

Mr. MosER. For basketball ? 



306 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. . That is correct. 

Mr. MosER. What would that scholarship have done for you ? 

Mr. ■ . Well, it would have permitted me to go through col- 
lege without paying any sort of money or anything' except for the 
books. 

Mr, MosER. All 4 years of college ? 

Mr. . That is correct. 

Mr. MosER, So in your senior year in high school you had a guaran- 
teed college education, did you ? 

Mr. . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. As a basketball scholarship ? 

Mr. . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. What happened that you happened to get on drugs when 
5^ou had that opportunity ahead of you ? 

Mr. . Well, I had been smoking marijuana while going to 

school, and over a summer vacation I started using heroin, and prior 
to 

Mr. MosER. Is this the summer vacation between your junior and 
senior year in high school ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And you had been using marijuana in school? 

Mr. .Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And then you went on the summer vacation? Where 
did you go ? 

Mr. — . To play basketball in the mountains in various resort 

hotels. 

Mr. MosER. Tn the Catskill Mountains ? 

Mr. . '"hat is right. 

Mr. MosEK. Vv^Jiat they call the Borscht circuit ? 

Mr. . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. And you were playing basketball, one resort with the 
other ? 

Mr. . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. How did you happen to pick up heroin there? 

Mr. . Through association, friends. 

Mr. MosER. Did you use it very much ? 

Mr. . Well, I started just on week ends, and things like that, 

"joy popping." 

Mr. MosER. "Jov popping." That means just taking it occasion- 
ally? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. With friends? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And were these friends that were using it regularly? 

Mr. . Some of them were and some of them weren't. 

Mr. MosER. These friends were friends that you picked up there? 

Mr. . No, they were friends from the city, and some of them 

I had met there also. 

Mr. MosER. And you had known some at home also? 

Mr. . Yes." 

Mr. MosER. And they were all using it a little bit? 

Mr. — . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Were they all "joy popping" or some using more? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 307 

Mr. . Some of them were using more, and very few "joy 

popping." 

Mr. MosER. Were they boys your age ? 

Mr. . Yes, a little older — about my age. 

Mr. MosER. A little bit older ? 

Mr. — . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Had they gotten out of school? 

Mr. . One of them was attending school; the rest I don't 

believe were going to school. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think any of them had left school because of 
drugs ? 

Mr. . I believe so. 

Mr. idosER. Let me go back a little bit to the heroin. You said you 
were smoking heroin in high school — excuse me, I meant marijuana — 
in high school. Were there in high school many other boys using mari- 
juana ? 

Mr. . Not to my knowledge. It was more or less a select 

group who were smoking marijuana. 

Mr. MosER. Was it hard to get? 

Mr. . Not very hard. 

Mr. MosER. You bought it from peddlers hanging airound the 
school ? 

Mr. . Not around the school. There weren't any peddlers 

around the school, to my knowledge. There may have been various 
other parts of the city ; where I lived more or less they were not around 
the school. 

Mr. MosER. Where did you find the peddlers ? 

Mr. . In other neighborhoods. 

Mr. MosER. Did you find them in the streets ? 

Mr. . In houses, in apartments, where they lived; some on 

the street. 

Mr. MosER. How did you know where to go ? 

Mr. . Well, through association with other smokers, you 

want it, so you just ask, and they will tell you. 

Mr. MosER. I see. The word passes around among the users of 
them? 

]\Ir. . That is correct. 

]Mr. MosER. When you got up to the Catskill Mountains during that 
summer, where did you get it up there ? 

Mr. . There were peddlers up there. There were friends 

who brought it up in large quantities, who were going to be there foi" 
quite a while, and they took along a supply. 

ISIr. MosER, Did you buy it from tliem or did they give it to you? 

Mr. . At times I would buy and times through being friends 

of theirs, they would give it to me. 

Mr. MosER. How much did you pay for it when you bought it from 
them? 

Mr. . This is the marijuana ? 

Mr. MosER. No. 

Mr. , You are talking about the heroin ? 

Mr. MosER. Did you use marijuana in the mountains ? 

^Ir. . Very little. 

Mr. MosER. You switched to heroin ? 



308 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. When you bought the heroin up there, did you buy it 
from friends? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Any peddlers there ? 

Mr. . There were peddlers there. 

Mr. MosER. Kegular peddlers ? 

Mr. . Regular peddlers. 

Mr. MosER. Were they addicted ? 

Mr. . I believe so. 

Mr. MosER. Did you sometimes buy it from your own friends ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. From their supply ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How much did you pay for it when you bought it 
from them ? 

Mr. . At the time it was $2 a capsule. 

Mr. MosER. When you bought it from an outside peddler, how much 
did you pay ? 

Mr. . $2 a capsule. 

Mr. MosER. Was it hard to get or fairly easy ? 

Mr. . In the mountains it was more or less hard to get. You 

find a lot of addicts go up to the mountains during the summertime, 
but in the city it is not hard to get. 

Mr. MosER, When you got back from this summer up in the Cat- 
skills, you did not go back to school, did you? 

Mr. . No, I didn't go back to school. 

Mr. MosER. Why didn't you go back? 

Mr. . Well, I had left the mountains; I stopped playing 

basketball, because I had started to use heroin more frequently, and 
1 found I was not able to play ball, and 

Mr, MosER. Taking heroin made it impossible for you to play basket- 
ball well, is that it? 

Mr. — . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. So you stopped playing basketball ? 

Mr. . Yes ; and when I went back to the city I started in using 

it more frequently every day, and so on. 

Mr. MosER. Did you find you were hooked ? 

Mr. . Eventually I became hooked. 

Mr. MosER. How did you know you were hooked ? 

Mr. — . I woke up one morning ; I was not feeling the way I 

should, so I called a friend, and he said he would be down. He came 
down with the medicine. 

Mr. MosER. He came down to your house ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Senator Wiley. With the dope, you mean, the drug ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did your mother know you were taking it? 

Mr. . Not at the time. 

Mr. MosER. You concealed it from her? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How long were you able to conceal it from her ? 

Mr. . Oh, about a year, I guess. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 309 

Mr. MosER. How did you get money to buy the drugs, how did you 
get money from your mother? 

Mr. — . At first I was using a small amount — I would use the 

money that my mother gave me, borrow from relatives and borrow 
from friends. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever steal anything around the house ? 

Mr. . Take things from the house and pawn them. 

Mr. MosER. And sell them, pawn them? 

Mr. . Pawned my clothes ; take money for the dentist and use 

it, and things like that. 

Mr. MosER. Take money from a dentist? 

Mr. • . Take money from my mother for a dentist, and just use 

the money. 

Mr. MosER. I see. 

Mr. . Under any guise I would get the money, 

Mr. MosER. You used all kinds of tricks to get the money? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you try working ? 

Mr. . I worked for a while, but I could never hold a job long 

enough. 

Mr. MosER. Why couldn't you hold it? 

Mr. . VVell, the boss would always fire me ; I could not work 

steadily. There were dnjs when I did not have money for the drug 
and I could not go to work; and while working I would be unstable; 
1 couldn't perform my duties well. 

Mr. MosER. So he would let you go ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How did you finally end up in this institution ? 

Mr. . I was arrested for mail theft. 

]Mr. MosER. Taking checks out of the mails? 

Mr. . That is correct. 

Mr. MosER. Did you do that quite a little ? 

Mr. . Pardon? 

Mr. MosER. Did you do that a lot ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Was that your principal source of money toward the 
end ? 

Mr. . Yes, toward the end that was the principal source of 

money, 

Mr. J^IosER, Were you driven to commit any other crimes to get 
drugs ? 

Mr, , Well, I knew people who were committing other crimes, 

but I just couldn't bring myself to resort to going out with a gun and 
things like that, 

Mr. MosER. Did they tell you they were going out with a gun ? 

Mr. . Yes. I thought that checks, stealing checks, involved 

a minimum risk. I could make more money that way and, therefore 
I went to that. 

JNIr. MosER. Did you know that you could have been addicted like 
this when you started? 

Mr. , Well, I had seen addicts before I became addicted, 

before I started to use heroin, I knew addicts could become sick, bat 
I just sort of told myself it just can't happen to me. 



310 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. But it did ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Now, you know it can happen to anybody, is that right? 

Mr. . Oh, yes. 

Mr. MosER. You are a boy who had an unusual opportunity for edu- 
cation and could have gone through college free, and you lost it all 
because of this unfortunate habit that you developed. 

Do you think that other boys would be less likely to have the same 
thing happen to them if they were told in advance what happens I 

Mr. — . Well, I personally believe it has to be more than a tell- 
ing, by pointing out the dangers in using drugs and showing how hor- 
rible it is. It will stop it to some extent, but danger itself and horrors 
won't stop a teen-ager from using something. He has danger all 
around. 

When a fellow becomes 17, 18, and 10, he is subject to going to war; 
he is subject to go to Korea. He has danger all around him. We are 
living in an age and time when danger doesn't mean a thing. 

You will find people who out on the west coast, I believe, they drive 
"hot rod" cars. If that is not dangerous, I don't know what is. 

The Chairman. You described this to us at Lexington as being 
what you termed a leprosy, a form of mental leprosy. 

Mr. . A form of mental leprosy. 

The Chairman. Well, that being so, do you not feel that the young- 
er generation, like yourself, if they knew the consequences and the 
terrible suffering that you have had to bear, might be dissuaded from 
starting ? 

Mr. . Oh, it is definitely a start toward stopping the teen- 
age addiction, but it is not a solution. 

Mr. MosER. You believe there is more required than that? 

Mr. . I believe so. I believe that right now we have nothing 

to stop it. We have nothing to start with, and that is why you people 
are here, to try to find out what you can do. I believe that the only 
way of stopping a teen-age addiction is through stopping the illegal 
market, by curbing the illegal market. You can't do that when there 
are so many people — there is so much financial benefits, and there are 
so many people who take up selling dope, when they realize that they 
can make so much money. There is such a big profit in it. If you 
minimize the profit, if you can make it where there is not a profit in- 
volved, and I believe 

The Chairman. Do you think also where they have to choose be- 
tween getting a large profit and possibly a light jail sentence if caught, 
that they might be stopped if there were more severe penalties? 

Mr. -^ . Definitely if there are penalties ; but we see where there 

are penalties being given 20 and 40 years, but where every peddler goes 
to jail, two crop up in his place. 

I believe personally, it is my opinion, that the only way you can 
actually stop or begin to stop teen-age addiction is through some sort 
of a revision of the Harrison Act, or amending the Harrison Act and 
making it legal for registered addicts. In otlier words, register the 
confirmed addicts, make it legal for them to obtain — actually it does 
become medicir.e after a while. It is a sickness and an illness, and we 
have to be aware of that. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 311 

These old-timers, they are sick, they need medicine. If they can 
obtain their drugs through a doctor for a small amount of money, they 
won't go to the peddlers. It won't be profitable for the peddlers to sell 
drugs on the street. 

The Chairman. Have you information also as to the use of the 
barbiturates? 

Mr. . No, I have not. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Senator Kefauver? 

Senator Kefauver, No questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Senator Wiley? 

Senator Wiijst. Well, I think you stated that you had the point of 
view that if you had your life to live over again you would not touch 
the stuff. 

Mr. . That is correct. 

Senator Wiley. And your advice to every youngster is to leave 
marijuana and leave the dope alone. 

Mr. . Leave all drugs alone. 

Senator Wiley. Then you suggest that you can stop the peddling 
of dope, and that certainly takes away from these dopesters — even 
though they may feel that they have the inclination — it takes away 
from them the opportunitv to get hold of the stuff, does it not? 

Mr. . Thatisriglit. 

Senator Wiley. Let us get right down to that question. How are 
you going to stop the dopesters, the peddlers? 

Mr. — . How are you going to stop the dopester? 

Senator Wiley. Yes. You made one suggestion. Now, tell me if 
you are going to have any more. 

Mr. . Well, stiff sentences will minimize it to some extent, but 

it won't completely kill it, and if there is one peddler — if they are 
selling something that these teen-agers can buy drugs from them — if 
you contaminate one you will contaminate another. It is a disease. 

Senator Wiley. You agree that that happens? 

Mr. . Definitely. 

Senator Wiley. All right. 

Now, let us see if you have any ideas about stopping this. We are 
talking about the dopesters; you are talking about the folks on the 
lower level that sell to you. 

Mr. , That is right. 

Senator Wiley. That sell to John, Susie, and so forth. The chances 
are that around the corner in some saloon is a guy who has been ped- 
dling it out for the dopester on a percentage basis, is that right? 

Mr. . That is right. 

Senator Wiley. All right. 

Do you have any ideas of how to get that guy ? 

Mr. . Other than making it not profitable, you mean? 

Senator Wiley. I want to get your ideas. 

Mr. . As I said before, if he can't make money through selling 

it, he won't sell it, and if there is a stiff penalty facing him for selling 
it, he will think twice, but it won't stamp it out completely. 

Senator Wiley. Then, you know above that fellow there is the 
other chap. 



312 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. . The other chaps ? 

Senator Wiley. The fellow that is getting this imported into this 
city of X ; the fellow that is really getting the big take. 

Mr. . Well, I have heard conflicting rumors to the extent 

that it is sabotage. I don't know how true that is. I have heard 
reports of that. 

Senator Wiley. Of what? 

Mr. . Of sabotage, sabotaging the youth of our Nation, be- 
cause of such an upsurge of young drug addicts through this, they 
say that the Communists are trying to bring that in. I have read 
articles by Commissioner Anslinger, and he says whereas Red China 
is flooding the opium market 

Senator Wiley. Yes, we have read about that, but I was going to 
get to that question to ask you whether you did have any particular 
knowledge, due to your varied background here, of any connection 
between what you might call an attitude or inclination of the Com- 
munists in this country. 

Mr. . Well, it is well known that in New York City there is 

probably the largest city for narcotics in the United States. It is 
also well-known that in a radius of 15 square blocks in New York 
City, most drugs come through there, distributed throughout the 
United States. 

The district leader recently of that district was Marcantonio. If 
that has any bearing, I don't know. You gentlemen would be in a 
better position to know it than I would. 

Senator Wiley. You made a statement there that there was an 
area of about 15 blocks, and that out of this came — it was the distribut- 
ing center for these drugs. What do you base that on? 

Mr. . Articles I have read. 

Senator Wiley. Have you any personal information ? Do you get 
any dope frori that center? 

Mr. . All the dope I bought was bought in Brooklyn. 

Senator Wiley. Is there any other information you can give us 
on these 15 blocks ? Where are they, between what streets ? 

Mr. . I believe it is 100 to 117; something like that. That 

is a widely known fact. 

Senator Wiley. It is a well-known fact, you say ? 

Mr. . Yes, I read it. 

Senator Wiley. Well, let us get this straight. You say it is the 
center; you think that the dope comes through the New York Port 
from outside into the 15 blocks? 

Mr. . Well, all the big dope arrests and all the kingpins, as 

they have been described, operate out of these 15 blocks. 

Senator Wiley. Have you any more information to give us as to 
what will we call it, the heroin operation? 

Senator Kefauver. Mr. Chairman, before we leave that 

The Chairman. Senator Kefauver ? 

Senator Kefauver. Will the Senator yield? I really don't think 
we should let the record stand in the condition where this young man 
by inference several times removed is accusing Marcantonio of being 
in the dope traffic. 

Mr. . You misinterpreted — — 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 313 

Senator Kefaumsr. I have never agreed very much witli Mr. Mar- 
cantonio 

Mr. . You misinterpret that. 

Senator Kefauver (continuing). I am not trying to defend him, 
but I am sure you did not want to leave the inference that Marcan- 
tonio was the head of any dope ring. 

The Chairman. Senator Kefauver, I am glad you made that point. 
There has been nothing submitted to the committee which would 
indicate that. 

Senator Kjefa-datsr. I think it would be unfair. 

Mr. . I would not want to slander him. 

The Chairman. There has been no evidence to indicate any such 
situation. 

Mr. . If I inferred that, I am sorry. 

The Chairman. You merely mentioned the particular district 
which he represented. 

Mr. . No, I was talking about sabotage. 

The Chairman. But there is no information which links him witli 
any distribution or traffic. 

Mr. . None whatsoever. 

Senator Wilet. Just one other question. Because of your very 
sad experience, what have you got to say about the influence of the 
home and the teaching, religious and otherwise, operating as a check 
against the spread of this disease, as it has been called ? 

Mr. . Well, I have never met an addict who has come from 

a closely knit family, more or less, who has a strong religious belief, 
who has a definite purpose in life. An addict becomes an addict, as 
I said, through association. But there is something underlying before 
the association. I have met people who have come in contact with 
drug addicts, and who have been offered drugs and taken drugs, and 
who just would not take them any more. They tried it, and that is 
all. There is a definite — I also believe there is a definite — psychiatric 
problem that exists in each addict. There is a reason why he takes it. 
There has to be a reason. We lack psychiatric facilities. 

Senator Wiley. That is all. 

The Chairman. All right, thank you. 

Senator Kefauver. Mr. Chairman, may I ask one question ? 

The Chairman. Yes, indeed. Senator Kefauver. 

Senator Kefauver. I do not think you were asked how much you 
paid for heroin at your top point of your addiction 

Mr. . Weil 

Senator Kefauver. (continuing). Per day. 

Mr. (continuing). Prior^to my stealing, I wasn't spendinj^ 

much; but after I started to steal, I was making more money than 
I ever had before, and I was spending approximately $40 a day. 

Senator Kefauver. Some of your friends, did they spend more than 
that? 

Mr. . Oh, yes, if they have it. 

Senator Kefauver. I think, Mr. Chairman, at this point in order 
to keep the record straight, this young man tried to make an inference 
that there was a Communist connection in the sale of narcotics. I am 
not one to defend the Communists, but as I remember, Mr. Anslinger 
testified that the only connection he found was that the Communists 



314 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

in China had opened a factory there, and were supplying the Chinese 
market. Some of it was getting over this way, but I do not think — 
I think he testified that he had no information of any particular 
Communist rii g operating over here. 

The Chairman. Senator Kefauver, you are correct; and Mr. An- 
slinger is here, and we expect to have him tell us just about that phase 
of the matter, too. 

Now, the next witness is a patient also, and we would kindly ask 
that the same regulations be observed. 

In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear that the testimony 
you will give shall be the truth, the Avhole truth, and nothing but 
the truth ? 

Dr. . I do. 

The Chairman. Now, you are a member of the medical profession ? 

TESTIMONY OF DR. 



Dr. . Yes, I am. 

The Chairman. Wliat is your age? 

Dr. . Thirty-two. 

The Chairman. Thirty-two? Now, Doctor, you are a voluntary 
patient. 

Dr. . That is right. 

The Chairman. At the present time ? 

Dr. . That is right. 

The Chairman. At Lexington? 

Dr. . That is right. 

The Chairman. We would like to consult your wishes as to the 
manner of being televised. You have been most cooperative and 
helpful, and it is our understanding that you desire to be of every 
possible help in combating this evil, are you not ? 

Dr. . That is true. 

The Chairman. With that in mind, what would be your best judg- 
ment as to whether you should or should not be televised, and what are 
your wishes in that respect ? 

Dr. . Well, Senator, when I left Lexington to come up here 

yesterday, several of the patients asked me why would I come up here 
and make a spectacle of myself or what would I gain from it. My 
answer to this is that I am not here trying to be a spectacle nor do I 
have anything to gain from it other than to, if there is anything that 
I might say which will prevent any other person from taking narcotics 
and getting involved as I did, I am more than willing to do it. 

The Chairman. That has been your attitude from the beginning, 
Doctor, and you not only have stated that, but you have proved it in 
the help you have been to the committee thus far. I may say for the 
record, and that bears out your statement of purpose. 

With that in mind, therefore, have you any objection to being tele- 
vised ? 

Dr. . No, sir. 

The Chairman. No objection. Therefore, the television can pro- 
ceed. 

Doctor, are you familiar with the use of demerol ? 

Dr. . Yes, I took demerol. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 315 

The Chairman. That is spelled d-e-m-e-r-o-1 ? 

Dr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Is it a habit-forming drug? 

Dr. . Yes ; that demerol is a synthetic drug, I think, produced 

from the coal-tar derivatives. It has a narcotic-like action. 

The Chairman. For what period of time had you used it? 

Dr. . "Well, this is my second admission to Lexington. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Dr. . I first began to use this demerol in about — you will 

excuse me if I try to have to remember the dates, because I was on bar- 
biturates, and sometimes these slip my mind. 

The Chairman. Take 3'our time. 

Dr. , I think it was about January 1949 when I first was 

addicted. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Dr. . I say Jannary, because I had been working quite hard, 

and I wasn't sleeping much. 

The Chairman. Before you get into the details of it, if you will, 
and so that we may have the benefit of your background, had you prior 
to that been engaged in active practice ? 

Dr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Of surgery? 

Dr. .Yes, I had. 

The Chairman. And had you also, without mentioning the names 
of any of the educational institutions, been affiliated w^th any of the 
universities ? 

Dr. . Yes, I had. 

The Chairman. Had you taught? 

Dr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Now, where were you assigned, where were you 
working, when you said this particular incident occurred ? 

Dr. . I was in a small town in Alabama. 

The Chairman. And you say you were under particular strain ? 

Dr. . Yes. I had been ill prior to my finishing my residency, 

and had gone back to practice before I should have. I had become 
tired, and occasionally I would take an injection of demerol, and it 
was a long time between my beginning to take these injections before 
I finally became addicted. 

I had the same attitude everyone else does that I was the one that 
could not be addicted, that I could handle it. 

In July of 1949, I had an abscess of my leg on, I think, the peri- 
osteum bone. There was an abscess under it, and it was necessary to 
open this abscess. While I was in the hospital I got an unlimited 
amount of narcotics. Since I was on the staif they permitted me more 
or less to call for the drugs that I wanted. 

After I was discharged from the hospital I went home. I had no 
narcotics available that night. I awoke about 4 that morning, and I 
was in a cold sweat. The mattress was soaked through, and I was 
twitching — marked twitching — the twitching of my face, and all kinds 
of nervous signs I developed. 

I called the man that I was practicing with, and told him that I 
thought the infection had reoccurred in my leg, and would he come 
over to help me. Well, he did, and so I was in quite a bit of pain, and 



316 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

gave me the injection, and that was the first time when I realized I 
was addicted. When he gave the sliot to me I relaxed, and I realized 
I had become an addict. 

The Chairman. How long after this was it, then, that you entered 
Lexington ? 

Dr. ■ . It was approximately, as close as I can think, it was 

about 4 weeks. 

The Chairman. Four weeks. In the d-week period, did you con- 
tinue the use of it ? 

Dr. . Yes, I did. I went to a private sanatorium — sani- 
tarium, rather. 

The Chairman. Sanitarium. 

Dr. . To try to get off these drugs. I did not wish to continue. 

The Chairman. Just at that point, what was your reaction to the 
treatment there as to the methods and as to the efficacy ? 

Dr. . In the sanitarium ? 

The Chairman. Yes, without mentioning the name. We are not 
concerned about that. 

Dr. . Well, do you want me to tell you what I heard the man 

say that ran the sanitarium ? 

The Chairman. Well, anything that would bear on the matter, and 
particularly your own experiences and observations. 

Dr. . After being there several days, and like most addicts, 

you want to keep getting drugs, and you are not particularly willing 
unless you are under the supervision, legal supervision of some group, 
you are not willing to have the dose cut. 

The Chairman. Not willing to have the what ? 

Dr. . The amount of drugs cut down that you are taking. 

One afternoon I had approached this doctor and asked for some 
more drugs. Well, the doctor apparently got mad about it. I heard 
him tell the superintendent of nurses that if I asked for the drugs 
any more, just to give me all the drugs I wanted. So, I called my 
wife and had her come and get me. There was no need for me to 
stay there in a place that I didn't have any hope of ever getting over 
the drug. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Now, then, subsequent to that you went to Lexington ? 

Dr. . Yes, sir ; I went back to where my wife was living. I 

had quite a battle with myself trying to decide what to do, and nat- 
urally I didn't know anything about Lexington at the time. I had 
beard the name Lexington, and that it was a place you could be taken 
off drugs. I thought at the time you had to be committed there 
legally, but then I found out you could commit yourself, so I went 
to Lexington. 

The Chairman. What was your attitude at the time of the admis- 
sion and thereafter ? 

Dr. . Well, my attitude was bad. I happened to be taking 

the type of drug that caused marked nervous symptoms and caused 
me to be antagonistic. I threshed around, blaming everyone but my- 
self. I blamed my friends for my situation, my environment, not 
realizing I was the cause of the addiction my own self; that I was 
the cause. 



ORGAXIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 317 

When I got to Lexington and was withdrawn from the drug, still 
I had the antagonistic attitude. I didn't try to make friends, didn't 
try to get what the institution offered. I left there with a chip still 
on my shoulder and went back out. 

The Chairmax. Now, upon your discharge or release from Lex- 
ington, did you feel you were cured? 

Dr. . Senator, I can't say that I did think so. 

The Chair3iax. You were not convinced? 

Dr. — ' . In the back of my mind there was that fear of nar- 
cotics. It stayed there. If I could have gotten rid of the fear that I 
was going to take narcotics, I wouldn't have taken them. 

The CHAiRMAjf . Did you resume your practice ? 

Dr. . Yes, I did. 

The Chairman. How long did you continue in the practice with- 
out the use of drugs ? 

Dr. . It was very sporadic. I got on barbiturates in the 

meantime. 

The Chairman Let's confine it to the barbiturates for a second. 
When did you begin the use of them after your release from Lexing- 
ton the first time ? 

Dr. . Approximately 2 months, as well as I remember. 

The Chairman. Two months. What led you to that habit ? 

Dr. —— — . Well, the same thing that got me into it the first time. 
I thought I could take some of these tablets and get away with it. I 
kidded myself into thinking I coiddn't sleep. That is a very common 
fault with people who have a tendency toward taking drugs. Then if 
I would drink something and have a hangover, I knew what I could 
get that would relieve the hang-over. That is how I got on barbitu- 
rates. I might say it is the most insidious drug and most dangerous 
drug manufactured in the country today. 

The Chairman. We are going to ask you a few questions about that 
in a minute. I was anxious to get the chronology. 

Then after using the barbiturates, how long was it before you 
changed from that, if you did change, back to demerol? 

Di'. . When you asked me at Lexington if during that time 

I had been on narcotics, I took it to mean in the slang expression we 
have at Lexington, on narcotics means being habituated to a drug. 

To the best of my memory, I must have taken five or six shots of 
narcotics during that period I was away from Lexington. When I 
was on barbiturates there are long blank spaces in my memory that I 
can't exactly tell you what happened. There have been times I 
waked up and thought I had been under the influence of narcotics, but 
I wasn't sure, and where I got them, how I procured them at that 
time, I don't know. 

The Chairman. Then, Doctor, after leaving that and resuming your 
practice and following that course, as you have just indicated, what 
next happened ? 

Dr. . In August of this past year I realized things were going 

from bad to worse again. I still was antagonistic. I still was resent- 
ful. My friends were trying to help me and I wasn't taking any of 
their help. I left and came back to live with my mother. 

I was trying to get away from what I thought was an environ- 
mental situation. From August until about February of this year I 

Sr.2T7— ol— pt. 14 21 



318 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

didn't do anything but hang around the house. I wasn't even trying 
to work. I had become disgusted with practice, I wanted to hear no 
gripes and complaints, and particularly didn't want to be around 
drugs. 

In February of this year I had a place offered to me in another 
State as director of a hospital, and I took this place. We had a flu 
epidemic after I had gotten there, and I was busy working with them, 
and got the flu myself, and used that as an excuse to take some bar- 
biturates again, and that led to my going back to Lexington. I rea- 
lized I could not make it on the outside, having taken barbiturates. 

The Chaieman. Doctor, upon your reaclmission to Lexington, was 
your attitude similar to that on your first admission or otherwise ? 

Dr. . No, sir. I think that my attitude has been entirely dif- 
ferent. I have gone up to Lexington with the idea that it was for my 
good, that I would cooperate to my best extent and I would try to 
take all the institution gave me. 

I might say that my trip there has been very pleasant this time, 
everyone has been very nice to me, I have had no trouble with any of 
the personnel or any of the custodial force. 

I might say here at this point that I think that the hospital. Dr. 
Vogel, and his staff do a splendid job. I can't conceive of any better 
set-up than they have at Lexington. 

The Chairman. Do you think that with your present attitude there 
has been betterment in your case and that you have been helped ? 

Dr. . Yes, sir, I certainly do. Because when I went back to 

Lexington this time, I was introduced to the Addicts Anonymous 
group. 

The Chairman. What is that? 

Dr. , As all of you gentlemen are familiar with Alcoholics 

Anonymous, I need not tell you what that is. The Addicts Anony- 
mous group 

Senator Wiley. We are familiar with the name. 

Dr. , You are familiar with the name. We pattern all our 

precepts after Alcoholics Anonymous, and we give them all prece- 
dents. It is just an informal group, a group of drug addicts, that 
are banded together to try to help each other. We believe that we 
have a program that if a man will follow when he leaves that institu- 
tion, that he can stay off drugs. 

People ask me do I think that I am cured when I leave there. This 
is my answer to the cure. No man who ever takes drugs or alcohol 
is ever cured. The case is arrested ; that is all. 

By following that AA program, the steps of the AA program, I 
believe a man has his best chance. 

The Chairman. Do you feel that an individual can, if he adheres 
to those principles, control himself ? 

Dr. . Yes, sir; I certainly do. The principle of our pro- 
gram is, our method of staying off drugs, is to help other people who 
are on drugs, and by doing so we can maintain our own health and 
sanity because, as far as I am concerned, anyone who takes narcotics 
is temporarily insane. 

The Chairman. Doctor, in our conversation previously with you 
you described how terrible you thought it was for a peddler or any 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 319 

trafficker in drug to give or to lead on any person, particularly the 
young. 

How would you best describe your attitude in that respect ? 

Dr. . I still feel the same way about these adult peddlers. 

Any peddler who would take a child or just a kid and sell him nar- 
cotic drugs, particularly some kid who doesn't know the effect of it 
or what lifetime slavery it might lead to — I would say that a man 
wlio sells narcotics to that person should have the electric chair. 

The Chairman. You indicated you thought it might be more merci- 
ful for him to have put a gun to the head of the child. 

Dr. . It would be better to blow his brains out than to get 

him started on narcotics. Then he loses his life. That is, if you blow 
his brains out. If you give him narcotics, he will lose his soul, too. 

The Chairman. You also gave us the benefit of your information as 
to the pyramiding, as to the increase in addiction. Will you state 
what is your opinion in that regard ? 

Dr. . Yes, sir. I said that it was my impression that for 

every teen-age addict that there are anywhere from 8 to 15 people ad- 
dicted directly through each one. These are kids not knowing the ef- 
fects of narcotics who go to parties, maybe someone at the pa^ty pro- 
cured a certain amount of narcotics and distributes the narcotics 
among the kids. If someone resists taking them, they call him, in the 
jargon, a "square" or "chicken." Usually they break down and take 
them. 

I have been listening to your discussion on the addicting properties 
of marijuana. This is my opinion about these kids taking marijuana. 
There are two phases to addiction. One is physical and one is men- 
t^al. This is true of marijuana, that it is not a dnig that causes physi- 
cal addiction. A person can smoke it for weeks, stop it, and not 
have drugs and have no ill effects. But by the same token, his smok- 
mg has changed his psychic state to such an extent that he wants 
to continue taking something that will change him and give him a 
boost or lift. 

The Chairman. You think there is a psycho-emotional dependency 
on drugs ? 

Dr. . I do. We call it liabituation. It is a psychic or 

emotional dependence on those drugs. From there by various means 
of meeting someone with heroin or cocaine he shifts to a stronger drug. 

The Chairman. All right. Senator Kefauver. 

Senator Kefauver. Doctor, I certainly think you are being of great 
value to this committee and to the public generally, and your tes- 
timony should have great value, great educational and informational 
value in trying to get out and do something about this terrific prob- 
lem. I want to join Senator O'Conor and Senator Wiley in thanking 
you for your cooperation. 

If I may just ask one or two questions, what is your feeling about 
the controversy as to whether there should be publicity and publi- 
cation, the information in the schools, for instance, as to the harmful 
effects of narcotics and addiction? Is it better to keep it secret 
or is it better to let the kids know just what is going to happen to them ? 

Dr. -. Well. I might qualify my statement by saying that I 

think that a proper presentation of this subject to children would be 



320 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

fine, but then it comes down to defining what is a proper presentation 
of it. 

I am telling you gentlemen this, and it is something that I am 
sure you don't realize. Addicts will not listen to people who have 
not been addicted to drugs. They realize they don't know much 
about it, and they won't listen. 

If some person who has been cured of addiction and proven him- 
self could talk to these kids in their own language and try to im- 
press on them the danger of taking these drugs, I think it would have 
far more effect. I am speaking of this in conjunction with an edu- 
cational progrflm. Because it is my impression that most of the 
children who are taking these narcotics are only impressed by their 
own kind of talk and probably nobody else. 

Senator Kefauver. They think it is smart and they take a dare. 

Dr. . They think it is smart and are looking for a thrill. 

Senator Kefauver. If someone like yoii could get the message over 
as you are getting the message over today, I feel that it has an over- 
all good effect on meeting this problem, don't you think so? 

Dr. . I certainly do. I might say this. These kids come 

to Lexington, many of them have only taken one or two capsules of 
heroin a day, and that is only 1 percent or less than 1 percent 
heroin, the rest being made of quinine, milk sugar, and barbiturates. 
They are not addicts. They don't go through the real withdrawal 
symptoms that a real addict goes through and are not impressed. 
They have no opportunity to see somebody who is really seriously 
addicted coming off these drugs. 

Senator Kefauver. May I ask a word about barbiturates? What 
kind did you take? 

Dr. — '- . Well, do you mind my explaining a little about bar- 
biturates ? They happen to all be derivatives of barbituric acid. The 
only difference is the speed with which they act. The preference of 
most ]:)eople is Seconal and lekotal. One is red and one is yellow. One 
is called yellow jackets and the other is red devils. That is the term 
used by addicts. Used therapeutically barbiturates are all right. 
That is, under close supervision of a doctor. 

But persons who begin taking these drugs find that after they have 
had a certain amount of these drugs at night, they find the next day, 
very similar to a hang-over, they feel bad and start taking a little more. 
Thej^ develop a state of chronic intoxication of these drugs because 
each night they take them, the full amount is not secreted out of the 
urine, and there is a cumulative effect of these drugs. 

Soon they begin to lose their power of reasoning, their power of 
thought, what intelligence they had, all control of their inhibitions. 
They stagger as a drunk would, and they are actually dangerous, 
and they sleep very little more than a person who has only taken a 
normal therapeutic dose, a person who has been off drugs. 

Senator Kefauver. Barbiturates are not under the Harrison Nar- 
cotic Act. Some States have one provision about how they can be 
sold and other States have other provisions. I think we have about 
28 different laws with reference to the barbiturates. 

Would it be your recommendation that they be placed under the 
Harrison Narcotic Act and regulated by the Federal Government? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 321 

Dr. . It certainly would. I would like more than anything 

else to see barbiturates regulated. 

Senator Kefattv^er. In the National Medical Association meeting 
2 years ago a doctor at Kichmond, Va. — I have forgotten his name — 
had been experimenting with putting ipecac with barbiturates, so that 
after you take a certain amount you just naturally lose what you 
have taken. It is a self -regulator. 

I know others have made similar proposals. Take in the case of 
alcohol. You can't get enough to kill you because you lose it before 
that happens. That is not true with barbiturates. Have you given 
that matter any study or thought ? 

Dr. . Well, there is only one thing about that. I believe 

that a person can become tolerant of ipecac. I don't believe a person 
who can repeatedly take small amounts of ipecac can fail to build 
up a tolerance to ipecac. 

Then you can't also underestimate the intelligence of these addicts. 
They will find a way to filter ipecac. Like morphine and ethrophene 
tablets. Addicts object to taking that when mixed with morphine 
because it causes such symptoms as dryness of the mouth and dilation 
of the pupils. They can take that out of the morphine. Maybe I 
shouldn't tell this over the air. 

The Chairman. Maybe you can give the results without giving the 
manner in which it is accomplished. 

Dr. . They may develop a method of removing it by filter 

paper. 

Senator Kefau\-er. I understood that with a certain type of ipecac 
you didn't build a tolerance for it, that while you build a tolerance for 
barbiturates you do not for ipecac. 

Dr. . I am not too familiar with that, but I know ipecac can 

be tolerated in fairly large doses, probably not enough to get acute 
intoxication. If there is no tolerance developed to ipeac, I see no rea- 
son for not putting it in barbiturates, but the real answer to that prob- 
lem — you gentlemen realize most of the suicides are due to poisoning, 
due to barbiturates in this country, because there are two reasons why 
people, so many people commit suicide when they are taking bar- 
biturates. 

First, they develop a psychosis. They get very depressed when they 
are taking barbiturates, and it very likely leads to suicidal tendencies. 

Second, they develop more or less an amnesia, they can't remember 
many times that they have already had a dose of barbiturates, and 
even when sometimes they are so drunk that they can hardly walk, they 
will still try to take barbiturates. Finally they ingest too much. 
Even though a person is on a level dose of barbiturates, he can still 
kill himself by taking an overdose. 

Senator Kefauver. Doctor, I hesitate to ask you this question, but 
you need not answer it if you would rather not. We have been ad- 
vised that the heaviest male addiction is among members of the medi- 
cal profession. Do you know whether that is ti'ue or not or can you 
say? 

The Chairman. Kelatively speaking. 

Dr. . You mean in proportion to the general population ? 

Senator Kefau\t:r. That is right. 

Dr. . It is certainly recognized as an occupational hazard. 



322 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Is there anything further? 

Senator Kefatjver. There is the matter of strain and long hours of 
work and then having the drug available. 

Dr. . That is true. 

Senator Kefauver. Let it be said also that the medical profession 
has been taking very effective precautions in trying to do what they 
can about it. 

Dr. — . We just have to remember that doctors are human just 

like anybody else and the temptation sometimes is too great because 
there is a very fine line between a person who is an addict and a 
person not an addict. It is not a solid brick wall, it is a short step 
over the line. 

Senator Kefauver. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Senator Wiley. 

Senator Wiley. Doctor, with your experience of coming into this 
institution, going out, falling off the wagon, so to speak, again and 
coming back, you are in a position to tell us something about the pain 
and the horror that follows one who gets into a mixup like that. Wliat 
have you got to say ? 

Dr. . Well, gentlemen, I have heard some of the other wit- 
nesses try to describe to you the agony of coming off narcotics, and 
as they have said, it is almost indescribable. There is a physical pain 
and there is a terrible mental yearning for drugs. 

The first effect that you have is ordinarily you begin to sweat and 
you begin to have cramps, and they are violent cramps. You have 
pain in all the muscles. It feels like pains in the bone. 

Following this is severe nausea with vomiting and diarrhea which 
may go on for days. And even after a person has gone through these 
acute phases of withdrawal there are days and days that he drags 
around and can hardly get up and go. Every muscle in your body 
aches and it feels like every day someone clubbed you in the head. 
It is a terrific effort to get out of bed, much less try to look like some- 
thing. 

Senator Wiley. You have heard the expression of tortures of hell ? 

Dr. . I think that is what they were describing when that 

phrase was first thought of. 

Senator Wiley. Was it because of that that you said something 
itbout what should happen to the dope peddler who gets dope into the 
hearts and minds and bodies of these youngsters ? 

Dr. . That is right. 

Senator Wiley. Just what did you say ? 

Dr. . I said that as far as I am concerned that any man who 

would sell dope to a kid should either be put in prison for the rest of 
his life or electrocuted, and I think I speak for the majority of the 
addicts at Lexington. 

So many of these men have been appalled to see these kids come in, 
and most of the other men who have really been through the mill 
would no more give one of these kids drugs than he would his own 
son. There is a certain number of unscrupulous individuals that will 
do it. It is my impression that most of the big distributors are not 
narcotic addicts themselves. 

Senator Wiley. One other subject was brought up that recalled 
to me my visit to Lexington when you spoke of the Addicts Anony- 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 323 

mous. I really got a real kick or pick-up when I heard you men talk 
about that, because several of you mentioned the fact that it was like 
Alcoholics Anonymous where millions of men had found their way 
out of the depths, and it was said there that the first rule was that I 
of my own self can do nothing, but with God's help all things are 
possible. 

Dr. . That is right. 

Senator Wilet. That is the first rule you men learn, and it is with 
that strength that comes from that guidance that you really arrive 
out of the depths ; is that so ? 

Dr. . That is true. I might say here, if you all will let me 

say this much, that I have always been exposed to the church all my 
life but I can't say that up until just a few months ago that I had 
any real thought about what God was or what God could do for us, 
and it has only been since my last admission that I have really come 
to accept God,' and in the words of the AA group I have to accept God 
as I see him, not as someone else sees him ; but I have come to realize 
that there is a God, and if we put a faith and dependence on him and 
turn a little more to the spiritual side, I believe more people could get 
away from this Frankenstein, this taking of drugs. 

Senator Wilet. Thank you, Doctor. 

The Chairman. Just this last question. You have been in the 
room here during the testimony of the other inmates or, rather, other 
patients, have you not? 

Dr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. In order that we may properly evaluate their tes- 
timony, I ask you to tell us whether in your opinion their description 
of the withdrawal period effects yon think — whether those opinions 
were accurate and whether you think they are well founded. 

Dr. . I think they are. The only difference in a person's 

opinion of withdrawal is the fact that every person doesn't go through 
exactly the same withdrawal. Some have more pains in one place and 
some in another, so that is why we have an inability to describe it 
exactly to you. 

The Chairman. But you do not think what has been described here 
has been exaggerated or distorted ? 

Dr. . I do not. It is not describable. 

The Chairman. Doctor, we are very grateful to you and we think 
you have rendered a real public service, and you have been most coop- 
erative. We are greatly indebted to you. Thank you. 

Dr. . Thank you. 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand. In the presence of Al- 
mighty God, do you swear that the testimony you will give shall be 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ? 

Mrs. . I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MRS. 



The Chairman. May I ask at the outset whether you have any 
views or wishes to express in regard to being televised? 

Mrs. . I would rather not be televised. 

The Chairman. The matter about which you are to testify relates 
to a case of addiction in the family ? 



324 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mrs. . That is right. 

The Chairman. Under those circumstcances the committee will 
then, of course, be very glad to accede to your request, and you will not 
be televised, and also that includes, of course, the newsreel pictures or 
photographs. Is that your wish? 

Mrs. . Yes. 

The Chairman. We will kindly ask all to abide by that request. 
Thank you very much. 

Will you proceed, Mr. Moser. 

Mr. MosER. As I understand it, you have a son who became addicted 
to narcotics ? 

Mrs. . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. What narcotic was he addicted to ? Was it heroin or 
marijuana? 

Mrs. . He started with marijuana cigarettes. 

Mr. MosER. Started in the school ? 

Mrs. . That is right. He wasn't in school at the time. 

Mr. MosER. He was not in school at the time ? 

Mrs. . No. 

Mr. Moser. How long do you think he smoked marijuana ciga- 
rettes? 

Mrs. . He smoked marijuana from February until September. 

Mr. MosER. Of what year? 

Mrs. . 1950. 

Mr. MosER. How old is your boy ? 

Mrs. , He is 16 now. He was 15 at the time. 

Mr. MosER. He was 15 when he started ? 

Mrs. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. When he started smoking 

Mrs. . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. Then you later learned that he switched over to heroin, 
did you not? 

Mrs. . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. He was not in school when he started taking marijuana 
or heroin. Was he doing well in his studies at that time ? 

Mrs. . He was before he started with the drugs. 

Mr. Moser. Did his leaving school have anything to do with drugs? 

Mrs. . No. He Mas sick for a while, so I took him out of 

school, and while he was out of school is when he started. So after 
he got well he had to go back into school, and he was still smoking 
them. 

Mr. MosER. Where do you live? 

Mrs. . In Baltimore. 

Mr. MosER. Now, would you like to tell us the whole story about 
your son and how he became addicted and how you discovered it, and 
so forth ? 

Mrs. . He started in February of 1950, and he went on for 

about 3 or 4 months before I noticed the change in him. 

Mr. MosER. He started 

Mrs. . With marijuana cigarettes. I noticed that his dispo- 
sition became — he was a changed person altogether. His appetite, he 
lost his appetite, he was very nervous, touchy. He would come in and 
his eyes were very glassy at times. I talked to him and asked him 
what the trouble was, and he wouldn't tell me at first. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 325 

IVIr, MosER. Did he lose weight ? 

Mrs. . He went from 115 down to 96 pounds. 

Mr. MosER. Did he stay out late at night ? 

Mrs. . He did, while he was smoking them he was out late. 

Mr. MosER. Did he tell you where he was getting the marijuana? 

Mrs. . He told me where he was getting it, but he wouldn't 

tell me who was getting it for him, but it was older fellows in the 
crowd that he was going with that was getting it. 

Mr. MosER. He was going around with older boys ? 

Mrs. . Yes ; they were men about 21. 

Mr, MosER. He was 15 and they were 21 ? 

Mrs. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. He was buying it from older boys ? 

Mrs. . A lot of times it would be cab drivers. 

Mr. MosER. Did he tell you how he first got started on marijuana? 

Mrs. . He said that he met these boys and they were in this 

machine and one of them told him 

Mr. MosER. In an automobile ? 

Mrs. . In the car, and told him to try this cigarette, and he 

said, "What is it?" They said, "Go ahead. It will get you high." 

So he smoked it, and then he said after that that he mixed with 
them again, and it would be the same thing over and over. 

Mr. MosER. Did he always seem to do it in parties or did he do it 
by himself? 

Mrs. . He was always with about three or four other boys 

when he would smoke them. 

Mr. MosER. Didn't do it by himself? 

Mrs. — . No. 

Mr. MosER. Now, how long do you think he smoked marijuana, a 
few months? 

Mrs. . Yes ; for about 7 months. 

Mr. MosER. Then what happened to him ? 

Mrs. . Then after that he got started on the heroin with the 

needle. 

Mr. MosER. Did he get picked up by the police at all ? 

Mrs. . Yes; he did. He was picked up by a detective, and 

he had the hypodermic needle and a capsule. 

Mr. MosER. This was after starting on heroin ? 

Mrs. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How did he happen to switch over from marijuana to 
heroin ? 

Mrs. . He had been smoking these ; he said it didn't give him 

a lift any more, so he run into this colored fellow and he asked him if 
he would like to try this heroin, and he said, "Yes ; I will try it." So 
the fellow gave it to him, the first shot. 

Mr. MosER. Didn't charge him ? 

Mrs. . Not for the first one, but after that he paid $3 a capsule. 

Mr. MosER. Did you notice a change in him when he started to use 
heroin ? 

Mrs. . Yes; he was like in a different world. You couldn't 

talk to him. If you would say anything to him, he would break down 
and cry all the time. He didn't have any appetite at all. 

Mr. MosER. Did he work? 



326 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mrs. . Well, he tried to help a fellow on a truck, but finally 

that didn't do any good, he couldn't stick to it and use the drugs, too. 

Mr. MosER. Did you notice any marks on his arms from injecting 
the heroin ? 

Mrs. . No; I didn't know anything about the marks, but 

when he was picked up and taken to the police station, the narcotic 
agent called me and asked me to come to the station, the police station, 
that they had my boy there. 

I went down. He told me to take a look at his arms. 

Mr. MosER. What had he been picked up for, possession of drugs ? 

Mrs. , This was investigation. 

Mr. MosER. Yes. 

Mrs. . They picked him up for questioning. I went down, 

and he said, "Take a look at your boy's arm." I said, "What is wrong 
with it?" He said, "Somebody has been giving your boy heroin 
needles, hypodermic needles." He says, "What are you going to do 
about it?" 

Mr. MosER. Let me interrupt a second. Up until then you didn't 
know that marks on the arm might be evidence of his taking heroin ? 

Mrs. . No ; I didn't know nothing about it. I knew about the 

marijuana cigarettes, but I didn't know about the heroin. 

Mr. MosER. You found no evidence around the house of the fact 
that he was taking heroin ? 

Mrs. . Only I could see something was wrong, but yet I didn't 

want to believe it. I thought it, but I didn't want to believe it. 

]Mr. MosER. If you had known about the marks on the arms you 
might have looked and been suspicious? 

Mrs. . That is right, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Then what happened ? 

Mrs. . So I went down and he told me, "Take a look at his 

arms. Some man has been giving him hypodermic needles." 

I told him, I said, "Well, it is hard to say, but I would rather see him 
dead than using the stuff." 

So he says, "Well, cooperate with me and we will find out where the 
boy is getting it and help him." So I got in touch with the narcotic 
agent and worked with him and through that the boy was helped, and 
he was lucky because he had only been on heroin for 2 months when 
he was picked up and sent for a cure. 

Mr. MosER. Where did he get the money to buy the heroin? 

Mrs. . We always gave him spending money. He is the only 

child and he kept coming back for more. He needed more money all 
the time. 

Mr. MosER. Did that seem peculiar to you ? 

Mrs. . Yes ; he did. I asked him what he needed the money 

for. At first he wouldn't tell me. 

Mr. MosER. Did you think of drugs as a possibility ? 

Mrs. . Yes ; I figured that. 

Mr. MosER. At first he wouldn't tell you ? 

Mrs. . At first he wouldn't, but after that he did. Then I 

noticed the company he was trifling with. I had heard it was so 
much in the neighborhood and I knew that the company he kept, 
that they were using drugs, too, and I 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 327 

The Chairman". Excuse me a moment. Just in connection with the 
extent of the use there and of the number of people that he was in 
company with or knew about the use of drugs, can you give us in- 
formation as to what the facts are about that ? 

Mrs. . Right in the neighborhood ? 

The Chairman. Yes ; or in the general area. 

Mrs. . From 75 to 100 in our neighborhood. 

The Chairman. Were using it ? 

Mrs. . Alone. 

Senator Wiley. How many were in the neighborhood ? How many 
people are in the neighborhood ? 

Mrs. . Oh, I don't know how many altogether, but of these 

that was using it. 

Senator Wiley. Youngsters ? 

Mrs. . No ; they ranged from 17 years up. 

The Chairman. In that one neighborhood in Baltimore ? 

Mrs. . In that neighborhood. 

Senator Wiley. Were there 500 people living in that neighborhood ? 

Mrs. . I imagine so. This was colored and white. 

The Chairman. Both colored and white, and you say between 75 
and 100 in that general neighborhood ? 

Mrs. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Thank you. 

Mr. MosER. Did your boy tell you where he bought it ? 

Mrs. — . He didn't buy it himself. This man, he would give 

him the money and he would go after it, Pennsylvania Avenue. 

Mr. MosER. You think that was his only source ? 

Mrs. . Yes ; this was the only connection he had. 

Mr. MosER. The police asked you to help cooperate and find out 
where he was getting it from, and that is what they found out ? 

Mrs. . Yes ; they found out. 

Mr. MosER. You are an example of someone whose child has become 
an addict. Have you any suggestions as to how other parents might 
be able to observe it and detect when the child does become addicted ? 

Mrs. . I think the public has to wake up to it and take an 

interest in it. It was like with me at first. I thought it couldn't 
happen to my child. I thought it is just something you pick up the 
paper and read about. When it finally hit my doorstep, I knew that 
not only some children it happened to, it happens to anybody's child. 

I think a parent owes that much to the child if they see any symp- 
toms that their child is using drugs, to get in touch with the narcotic 
agents in the Post Office Building. They won't involve their child 
at all. They will help them. They will help them to straighten him 
out, because they can't be straightened out running the streets when 
so much of it is going on. They have to be picked up and cured. 

Mr. MosER. You told us some of the symptoms a parent might look 
for. For example, a child becomes disagreeable and cross, becomes 
sleepy and drowsy around the house, becomes lazy, and stays out late 
at night. 

Mrs. . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. Spends too much money and is always trying to get 
more, and what you did not know is the needle marks on the arm. 
Have you any other suggestions that parents might look for ? 



328 ORGAJSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mrs. . Well, that is about all. You can notice an entirely 

different person when they are using the stuff. 

Mr. MosER. Their whole personality changes ? 

Mrs. . That is right. They are just not their self. 

Mr. MosER. Thank you. 

The Chairmax. Any other questions ? Senator Kef auver ? 

Senator Kefauver. Lady, are there any stains on his clothes that 
you observed ? 

Mrs. • — . Any what ? 

Senator Kefauver. Any stains on his clothing or odors. 

Mrs. . Well, one day it was on his shirt sleeve, the sleeve of his 

shirt was like a brown stain, but it did have like some kind of odor, 
but I didn't know what it was then. 

Senator Kefauver. Stains on their fingers sometimes? 

Mrs. . Yes, a kind of brownish stain. 

Senator Kefauver. I think, good lady, that you pay a very high 
tribute to the narcotic agents and that has been our experience with 
them, too, that they do want to cooperate and they want to help and 
you found tliat they helped you get your son placed where he could get 
a cure. 

Mrs. . They did. They are really wonderful. 

Senator Kefauver. And be brought back to normal again. I think 
if the public generally understood that narcotics agents want to co- 
operate with parents and with these unfortunate teen-age victims, 
that they would be able to make more headway against it. 

Mrs. . That is right. 

The Chairman. Haven't you found in that connection, and an- 
swering Senator Kefauver's question, from Commissioner Anslinger 
and Boyd Martin in Baltimore that their one aim is to be of every 
possible assistance and help and give proper protection to the unfor- 
tunates who fall victim to this ? 

Mrs. . That is right. That is what they do. 

Senator Kefauver. Do you feel, good lady, that it is important that 
in the public interest thei'e be more information and educational data 
available to parents about the evils of narcotics and how to assist 
their children, how to discover when they might be addicted? 

Mrs. . I think that would help a lot. If a parent doesn't 

know these symptoms and doesn't know what is going on, the child 
will keep on and keep on until it is entirely too late, but if they can 
catch these symptoms and get them straightened out, why, they will 
catch them in time and save them from it. 

Senator KefauA'ER. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Senator Wiley? 

Senator Wiley. I think, madam, that you hit the nail on the head 
when you said the public had to be aroused. Now, I can just imagine 
what would happen in a community of five or six hundred people if 
you women, the mothers of these children, simply got a Carrie Nation 
attitude in relation to these fellows that are peddling dope. They 
wouldn't last very long, would they ? " 

Mrs. — . No ; they wouldn't. 

Senator Wiley. When you see what they do to our boys and girls, I 
think that you are making a fine contribution in submitting your tes- 
timony here, but I think you have got to do more than that. You have 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 329 

got to realize that you have got to help save these other boys and girls 
by arousing the public sentiment in your community, in this neighbor- 
hood, to get busy and in the city to get busy to get rid of these rattle- 
snakes. 

If a rattlesnake came in your neighborhood, you wouldn't hesitate 
to take a hoe, for instance, and chop them up. 

Mrs. . That is right, a rattlesnake is too good. 

Senator Wiley. The comparison of those dopesters' effects upon 
our youth, those effects compared to the danger that a rattlesnake 
might have, of course, the effect of the dopester would be probably 
a million times worse than a rattlesnake. 

You have laid it on the line. Arise, ye women, and get busy, and 
the men will have to follow in attending to the business. 

Mrs. . That is right. 

Senator Wiley. It is a local business, it is a local challenge. You 
can't just let Anslinger and those boys look after it. They have the 
whole United States, and there is a question of the violation of a 
Federal law, but here you have these people out there reall}' inoculat- 
ing the youngsters of the community with the worst disease germ you 
can think of. 

Mrs. . They are giving them a slow death. 

The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you. We, of course, 
have had no desire to cause any embarrassment or do anything that 
would be unfortunate, and for that reason we will not call your son 
to the stand, but just for the record, in order to bear out your testi- 
mony, he is present with you here today ; is he not ? 

Mrs. . That is right. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. 

The next witness is Pasquale Matranga. Will you stand, please. 

In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear that the testimony 
you give shall be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth ? 

Mr. Matranga. I do. 

Mrs. De Auria. Is it all right for me to interpret for him? He 
doesn't speak too well English. I am his daughter. 

TESTIMONY OF PASQUALE MATRANGA, BROOKLYN, N. Y., 
ACCOMPANIED BY MRS. MARIA DE AURIA 

The Chairman. Let me ask your full name. 

Mr. Matranga. Pasquale Matranga. 

The Chairman. How is that spelled, the last name ? 

Mr. Matranga. M-a-t-r-a-n-g-a. 

The Chairman. You are his daughter? 

Mrs. De Auria. That is right. 

The Chairman. Wliat is your full name? 

Mrs. De Auria. I am married. Maria De Auria. 

The Chairman. I will ask that you be sworn, too. In the presence 
of Almighty God, do you swear that the testimony you will give shall 
be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? 

Mrs. De Auria. I do. 

The Chairman. Wliat is your address? 

Mrs. De Auria. 1532 Fifty-seventh Street, Brooklyn, N. Y. 

The Chairman. Now, you are the daughter of the witness ? 



330 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mrs. De Auria. That is right. 

The Chairman. Now, the question will be asked of the witness, 
and in the event there is any difficulty in his response, we will ask 
that it be interpreted through you. 

Mrs. De Auria. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Counsel may proceed. 

Mr. MosER. Mr. Matranga, what is your business? 

Mr. Matranga. I am in cheese, oil, and the Garden State Lath Co. 

Mr. MosER. That is another company? 

Mr. Matranoa. The cheese and oil is in my name. 

Mr. MosER. Cheese and oil is your private business? 

Mr. Matranga. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. You are also with the Garden State Lath Co.? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What is the business of the Garden State Lath Co. ? 

Mr. Matranga. That is a — they make wire lath. 

Mr. MosER. For new houses ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What is your connection with the company? Are you 
an officer of it ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You are an officer? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What officer ? 

Mrs. De Auria. Partner. 

Mr. Matranga. Copartner. 

Mr. MosER. It is not a corporation, it is a partnership, and you 
are one of the partners ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. That is your principal business? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Garden State Lath Co. ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And the cheese and oil business is a minor business ? 

Mr. Matr^vnga. Yes; it is not much, just a little. 

Mr. MosER. Who is your partner ? 

ISIr. Matranga. Acastrenzio Corozzo. 

Mr. MosER. How do you spell it ? 

Mrs. De Auria. I don't know how to spell the name. ^ ►, 

Mr. MosER. Would it be A-c-a-s-t-r-e-n-z-i-o ? 

Mrs. De Auria. It could be close. And C-o-r-o-z-z-o. 

Mr. Moser. Corozzo. Do you know Joe Prof aci ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is that spelled P-r-o-f-a-c-i? 

Mrs. De Auria. That I don't know. 

Mr. MosER. P-r-o-f-a-c-i, that is correct. What is his business? 

Mr. Matranga. He is in the oil business. 

Mr. Moser. He is in the oil business, too ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Are you also in the laundry and linen business 2 

Mr. Matranga. Used to be before. 

Mr. MosER. You were but you are not any more ? 

Mr. Matranga. In 194G. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 331 

Mr. MosER. Were you in business with Joe Profaci? 

Mr. Matranga. No. 

Mr. MoESR. You were not. Do you know Joe Adonis? 

Mr. Matranga. I know from the business we got the restaurant. I 
knew him on Fourth Avenue. 

The Chairinian. You knew Joe Adonis from the business ? 

Mr. Matranga. "When we had the business on Fourth Avenue. 

Mr. MosER. What is the nature of the business ^ 

Mr. Matranga, A restaurant. 

Mr. MosER. Did he have anything to do with the laundry business ? 

Mr. Matranga. He give us some hiundry. 

Mr. MosER. You supplied laundry to the restaurant ? 

Mr. Matranga. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. Do you know Lucky Luciano ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mv. Moser. You do know him? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Where is he now ? 

Mr. Matranga. He is in Italy. 

The Chairman. How long did you know Lucky Luciano before he 
AY as deported from here? 

Mr. Matranga. Well, I know before he go to jail about a year. 

The Chairman. About a year before he was sentenced ? 

Mr. Matranga. That is right, before he go to 

Mr. MosER, How did you know him ? 

Mr. Matoanga. Through the brother. The brother is in the linen 
business. 

Mr. Moser. Lucky's brother is in the linen business ? 

Mr, Matranga, That is right, and now he is in the dress factory 
business. 

Mr. Moser. There is an associate of Lucky Luciano named Joe 
Pici — P-i-c-i. Do you know him? 

Mr. Matranga. No. 

Mr. Moser. Another associate named Ralph Liguore — L-i-g-u-o-r-e. 

Mr. Matranga. No. 

Mr. Moser. Do you know Dominick Petrelli — P-e-t-r-e-1-l-i ? 

Mr. Matranga. No, 

Mr. Moser. Do you know Nicholas De Marza ? 

JNIr. Matranga. No, 

Mr. Moser. You don't know any of those associates of Lucky 
Luciano? 

Mr. Matranga. No. 

Mr. Moser. When did you last go to Italy ? 

Mr. Matranga. ilbout 3 years ago. 

Mr, Moser. Two years ago? ^ 

Mr. Matranga. Three years ago. 

Mr. Moser. In 1948? 

Mr, Matranga, 1948, 

Mr. Moser. Is this the only trip you have ever made to Italy ? 

Mr. Matranga, Yes, 

Mr, Moser. Since you first came over? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. When did you first come over? 



332 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Matranga. 1921. 

Mv. MosER. 1921? 

Mr, Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Who went to Italy with you ? 

Mr. Matranga. My wife. 

Mr. MosER. Did you take an automobile with you? Did you take 
a ear with you? 

Ml-. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You did. Who owned the car? 

Mr. Matranga. The car was under my name. 

Mr. MosER. It was under your name? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you own it? 

Mr. Matranga. 1 no bou<2:ht the car. 

Mr. MosER. Did you not buy it ? 

Mr. Matrancja. iS[o. 

Mr. MosER. AVhat kind of car was it ? 

Mr. Matranga. Oldsmobile. 

Mr. MosER. An Oldsmobile? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What year? 

Mr. Matranga. vUs. 

Mr. MosER. 1948 ? 

Ml'. INIatranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What type of car w^as it, a sedan ? 

Mr. Matran(ja. A sedan ; yes. 

INfr. MosER. A deluxe sedan? Was it a deluxe sedan? 

Mr. Matranga. A four-door sedan. 

Mr. MosER. Do you know how much was paid for it? 

Mr. Matranga. I don't know. 

Mr. MosER. You don't know anything about it? 

Mr. Matranga. No. 

Mr. MosER. You had nothing to do with paying for it? 

Mr. MA'rRANGA. No, 

Mr. MosER, It was registered in your name. 

Mr. Matranga. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. Who actually bought the car? 

Mr. Matranga. Who gave the car to me is Tony Sabio. 

;Mr. MosER. S-a-b-i-o ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. His name was probably Anthony Sabio ; is that correct? 

Mr. Matranga. Tony and Anthony, I think it is the same. 

Mr. MosER. Did he have the nickname "Chicago Fats"? 

Mr. Matranga. That is right 

Mr. MosER. You have heard that nickname? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

The Chairman. AVas the car purchased new in your name? 

Mr. Matranga. The car is under my name. Yes; bought a new car 
uiuler my name. 

Mr. MosER. A new car was bought in your name? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes, 

Mr. MosER. It was bought at a regular automobile dealer? 

Mr. Matranga. I don't know that. 



ORGAu^JIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 333 

Mr. MosER. You doirt knoAv Avhere it was bou<iht? 

Mr. Matranga, No. I know it is a Jersey car. 

Mr. MosER. Do you know tlie license number? 

Mr. Matranga. I don't remember the license plates. 

Mr. MosER. If I told you, would it help you remember? 

Mr. Matranga. No. I stayed with it for a couple of hours. 

Mr. MosER. You stayed with it a couple of hours ? 

Mr. Matranga. That is all. 

Mr. MosER. Where did you take title to the car? Where was the 
title transferred to you ? Was it at the office of Dr. Noto. 

Mr. Matranga. That is ri<rht. Near the office of Dr. Noto. 

Mrs. De Auria. It was giAcn to him near the office of Dr. Noto. 

Mr. MosER. It was given to you near the office of Dr. Noto? 

Mr. Matoanga. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. But not in the office? 

Mr. Matranga. The car wouldn't be in the office. Outside. 

Mrs. De Auria. It was given to him near the office of Dr. Noto, 
outside the office. 

Mr. MosER. That is the doctor whose address is 158 Washington 
Place, Passaic, N. J. ? 

Mr. Matranga. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. Did you have all the expenses for that car paid to you ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Where does Sabio now live ? 

Mr. Matranga. I don't know. 

Mr. MosER. Where did he live at that time ? 

Mr. Matranga. I don't know. I met him through Dr. Noto. 

Mr. MosER. You met him through Dr. Noto. 

Mr. Matranga. I met him there at the office. 

Mr. MosER. You didn't know him before that? 

Mr. Matranga. I met him there, and he asked me to do the favor, 
bring this car to Charlie Luciano. I told him as long as it is a legiti- 
mate car, give it to me, I bring it to him. I don't bring it under- my 
name. 

Mr. MosER. As long as it was a legitimate car, you would deliver it? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

The Chairman. Take it to him? 

Mrs. De Auria. Charlie Luciano. 

The Chairman. You took it to him ? 

Mrs. De Auria. Yes ; he said as long as it was legal. 

Mr. Matranga. As long as it is legal, I bring it over there. 

Mr. MosER. Is Tony Sabio the man arrested for larceny in Paterson 
2 years ago? 

Mr. Matranga. I don't know. ^ 

Mr. Moser. How long did you know him before you got the car? 

Mr. Matranga. Just a month before I go to the other side. 

Mr, Moser. A month before what ? 

Mrs. De Auria. Before he went to Europe. 

Mr. MosER. A month before vou went to Italv you met him through 
Dr. Noto? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You didn't know anything about him, where he lived ? 

Mr. Matranga. No. 

85277— 51— pt. 14 22 



334 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. All you knew was Dr. Noto said it was all right? 

Mr. Matranga. 1 met him over there through the office, in the lobby. 

Mr. MosER. You met him in the lobby ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes ; I started to talk, I know they have a business, 
that is shoe-box business and cigarette-vending machine. 

Mr. MosER. That was his business ? 

Mr. Matranga. That is what he told me. 

Mr, MosER. He told you he was in the shoe-box business and cig- 
arette-vending-machine business? 

Mr. Matranga. They are in partnership, the business. 

Mr. Moser. Dr. Noto tells us that Sabio is dead ; is that correct? 

Mr. Matranga. I don't know. 

Mr. Moser. You don't know anything about that. He says that 
Sabio died in 1949 in Italy. 

Mr. Matranga. I don't know that. 

Mr. Moser. You did not see Sabio when you were in Italy? 

Mr. Matranga. No. 

Mr. Moser. How long were you in Italy ? 

Mr. Matranga. About 3 months, about 3i/^ months. 

Mr. Moser. You went there with your wife ? 

Mr. Matranga. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. When you got this car to Italy, where did you land ? 

Mr. Matranga. Naples. 

Mr. Moser. That is where you got off the ship ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And what did you do with the car then ? 

Mr, Matranga. When I reach over there I found Lucky Luciano 
there. 

Mr. Moser. You found Lucky Luciano there ? 

Mr. Matranga. At dock. 

Mr. Moser. He was at the dock to meet you ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. He was expecting the ship ? 

Mr. Matranga. Expecting me with the car. 

■Mr. Moser. Expecting you with the car? 

Mr. Matranga. That is right. Then the same night I gave the 
papers to him. 

Mr. Moser. That same night you gave him the papers ? 

Mr. Matranga. That is right, and in the morning they took 

Mr. Moser. He took the car off the ship the next day ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Was the car registered with a New Jersey license plate? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You transferred the title to him at Naples; is that 
correct ? 

]\f r. Matranga. Yes ; transferred it to him. 

Mr. Moser. Did you see Lucky Luciano after that ? 

Mr. Matranga. t see him at Palermo a couple of times. 

Mr. Moser. Did he live in Palermo ? 

Mr. Matranga. No ; he lives in Naples. 

Mr. Moser. He lives in Naples? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 335 

Mr. MosER. You saw him several times. What did you see him 
about? 

Mr, Matranga. Well, we went to Palermo and Avhen he came in 
and look for me. 

Mr. MosER. He looked you up ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes ; he looked for me. 

Mr. Moser. You were staying at Palermo ? 
Mr. Matranga. Near the city. 

Mr. Moser. Near the city in the suburbs ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. He would look you up. What did you do? 

Mr. Matranga. He wanted to treat me, to go eat with him, 
Mr. Moser. He invited you out for dinner ? 

Mr. Matranga. That is right. 

Mr. Moser, What else did you talk about? 

Mr, Matranga. That is all we talk about. 

Mr. Mosp:r, Didn't you have any conversation about any business 
matters? 

Mr, Matranga. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. I show you a photograph which contains a picture of 
an automobile with a man standing beside it. It is an Oldsmobile 8, 
the picture shows a license plate which appears to be, which is a New 
Jersey license plate, and appears to be numbered RU-37-X although 
the entire number is not completely visible. 

Will you please look at this picture and tell me whether that is the 
car we have been asking you about and whether that is a picture of 
Lucky Luciano, 

Mrs. De Atjria. He says it is him. 

Mr. Matranga. That is him. 

Mrs, De Auria. But he is not so sure of the car, but it is an Olds- 
mobile. 

Mr. MosER. It is an Oldsmobile 8. 

The Chairman. Bearing New Jersey tags. 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. That is Lucky Luciano ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr, Moser, That is a black automobile ? 

Mr, Matranga. No; two-tone color, green, two-tone color. 

Mr. MosER. Is that a two-tone car in that picture ? 

Mrs. De Auria. You can't tell. 

Mr. Matranga. That is what I bring him over there. It is two-tone 
car. 

Mr. Moser. Does that look like the car we are talking about? 

Mr, Matranga. I don't Icnow.^ 

Mrs. De Auria. It is an Oldsmobile. 

Mr. Matranga. I don't know if it is the same or not. 

Mr. MosER. It looks like it, doesn't the color of the upper part look 
lighter than the lower part? You can't tell ? 

Mr, Matranga. I can't tell the color. 

Mr. Moser. You are not telling us square about this. It does look 
like the car ? 

Mrs. De Auria. He usually wears glasses. 

Mr. Matranga. I can't say if it is a two-color in the picture. 



336 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mrs. De Auria. It looks like the shade may be lighter on top, but 
i t may be the way they took the picture. 

Mr. MosER. You saw this car '^ 

Mr. Matranga. If this is the car I bring him, I saw it. 

Mr. MosER. You have a general idea what it looked like. Did it 
look like that ? 

Mr. Matranga. I think so. It is an Oldsmobile. I think the 
license, it is a Jersey license. 

Mr. MosER. You think that is probably it ? 

Mr. Matranga. Probably. 

Mr. MosER. Did you know it is against the law to take a car into 
Italy without a permit ? 

Mr. Matranga. I don't know that. I know we pay everything over 
here. They gave me the money to pay everything. 

Mr. MosER. Who gave you the money ? 

Mr. Matranga. Sabio, 

Mr. MosER. Sabio paid you the money ? 

Mr. Matranga. To pay the ship. 

Mr. MosER. To pay the shipment of the car? 

Mr. Matranga. The shipping of the car and the insurance on the 
car. 

Mr. MosER. And the insurance, and they paid for the registration ? 

Mr, Matranga. The registration ; I think they pay for everything. 

Mr. MoSER. They paid everything? 

Mr. Matranga. They paid everything. Paid the shipment and 
insurance. 

Mr. MosER. And did they hand you the money to do this or did 
they do it for you — to pay the insurance ? 

Mr. Matranga. They gave me the money; yes. 

Mr. MosER. They gave you the money to pay insurance and ship- 
ping for the car ? 

Mr, Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You went to the shipping company office and made the 
arrangements for the shipping of the car I 

Mr. Matranga, Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you do all that? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. The shipping company didn't say anything to you 
about needing a license to take* the car to Italy ? 

Mr. Matranga. No, just to put a bond on the car. 

Mr. MosER. You know, I suppose, that Luciano has been indicted 
in Italy for bringing this car in. Did you know that ? 

Mr. Matranga. Well, I Imow he is in trouble for car, 

Mr. MosER. Did you know you are also named in the indictment ? 

Mr, Matranga, If I know I got to be in trouble for this thing, I 
never would be in trouble for car, because I go on the other side to see 
my father and my mother T no see for 28 years, and my father and my 
mother is old. That is why I go to the other side, to see my family. 
If I know I would be in trouble here, I would told the guy, "Bring it 
yourself if you want it," 

Mr. MosER. We don't want to get you in trouble ; we are trying to 
get information. 



ORGAiNIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 337 

Mr. Matranga. You say yourself, I go to see my family, and then 
now I o^ot to have this trouble to do a favor. 

Mr. MosER. Don't think we are geting you in trouble, but we are 
tryin^i^ to find out why Luciano would get a car from here. 

Mr. Matranga. Wliat I told you is the truth. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever go to Laredo, Tex. ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Wliat year did you do that ? 

Mr. Matranga. I don't remember the year. 

Mr. MosER. Could it have been 1939? 

Mr. Matranga. Probably. 

Mr. Moser. Probably 1939. Who went with you? 

Mr. Matranga. Fellow name of Ritchie. 

The Chairman. Is that Joe Ritchie? 

Mr. Matranga. I think it is Joe. 

Mr. Moser. Was there another man with you ? 

Mr. Matranga. I don't remember the name. 

Mr. Moser. John Russo? 

Mr. Matranga. May be the name ; I don't remember. 

Mr. Moser. You drove all the way to Laredo, Tex.? 

Mr. Matranga. We go to Texas. 

Mr. Moser. You went to Texas first ? 

Mr. Matranga. No. 

Mr. Moser. '\Yliere did you go first? 

Mr. Matranga, We go first to Kansas City. 

Mr. Moser. Is this in an automobile? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You drove from here to Kansas City with Joe Ritchie 
and another man and you don't remember the other man's name? 

Mr. Matranga. It may be Russo, but I don't Imow. 

Mr. Moser. It might have been Russo? 

Mr. Matranga. Maybe. 

Mr. Moser. In whose can did you go? 

Mr. Matranga. Ritchie's car. 

Mr. Moser. You went in Ritchie's car? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You went along as a passenger? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Then you went from Kansas City to Laredo, Tex. ? 

Mr. Matranga. That is correct. 

Mr. Moser. That is on the Mexican border? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Wliy did you make that trip ? 

Mr. Matranga. Just to see it.- 

Mr. Moser. Just you three fellows for the pleasure of it? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. What did you stop at Atlantic City for? Why did you 
stop at Atlantic City ? 

Mr. Matranga. Kansas City. 

Mr. Moser. I mean Kansas City. Excuse me. What kind of a car 
did you own at that time yourself? 

Mr. Matranga. I think it was a Dodge. 

Mr. Moser. You owned a Dodge? 



338 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

Mr. MosEE. Would it have been a 1937 Dodge? 

Mr. Matkanga. I think so. 

Mr. MosER. Now, isn't it a fact, Mr. Matranga, that you actually 
purchased this Oldsmobile yourself? 

Mr. Matranga. The Oldsmobile? 

Mrs. De Auria. The one he sent to Europe ? 

Mr. Moser. Yes ; isn't it true you bought it yourself ? 

Mr. Matranga. No, I bring him over there. I no bought the car. 

The Chairman. You say it was bought by a man named Sabio. 
What proof have you got? 

Mr. Matranga. I don't know what proof I have got. 

The Chairman. He is dead. 

Mr. Matranga. I know they gave me the car. The proof you 
can 

The Chairman. Did you buy it with cash or with a check ? 

Mr. Matranga. I don't know. 

The Chairman. You were there when they delivered the car ? 

Mr. Matranga. No, sir. 

Mrs. De Auria. When they delivered the car ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Matranga. When they gave me the car. 

The Chairman. You say "No" and she says "Yes." 

Mr. Matranga. "Wlien they gave me the car. 

Mr. MosER. You don't know where it was bought ? 

Mr. Matranga. No. 

Mr. MosER. AVhat automobile sales agency was it bought from ; do 
you know ? 

Mr. Matranga. No. 

Mr. Moser. You didn't go into any sales oflBce to buy it ? 

Mr. Matranga. No. 

Mr. Moser. You are sure about that? 

Mr. Matranga. I am sure, positive. 

Mr. MosKR. How did they happen to issue the registration in your 
name ? 

Mr. Matranga. Because they bring the paper to me before I took 
the car. 

The Chairman. How did they know you knew Lucky Luciano, 
Sabio? 

Mr. Matranga. He asked me. 

The Chairman. Just guessed it? 

Mrs. De Auria. He asked. 

Mr. Matranga. He asked me if I know him, and I told him, "Yes." 

The Chairman. Knowing you were going to Italy, and gave you the 
car to deliver to Lucky ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes. 

The Chairman. You knew what a thug and outlaw Luciano was 
and is ; didn't you ? 

Mr. Matranga. I don't know this thing. 

The Chairman. You thought he was a law-abiding, decent citizen ; 
did you ? 

Mr. Matranga. I don't know 

The Chairman. What did you think he was ? 



ORGAJsIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 339 

Mr. Matranga. I don't know. Now they come up with all this 
thing here. I didn't know it before. 

Mr. MosER. Didn't you know he was in jail? 

Mr. Mateanga. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Didn't you know he was released from jail to go to 
Italy? 

Mr. Matranga. He is in jail in Italy — I don't know. 

Mr. Moser. Wasn't he in jail just before he went to Italy ? 

Mr. Matrakga. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Didn't you know that? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes, sure. 

Mr. Moser. Didn't you think it was rather peculiar they would ask 
you to take a car to a man of that kind ? 

Mr. Matranga. I don't think I do anything wrong to bring the car 
over there. It no cost nothing to me to bring it over there. 

Mr. MosER. When this car was purchased, it was purchased in your 
name ; was it not ? 

Mr. IVIatranga. Yes, I know that. 

Mr. Moser. Did they know that you were going to take it at the 
time they purchased it ? 

Mrs. De Auria. Would jou repeat that ? 

Mr. Moser. Did they not know at the time he purchased the car you 
were going to take it to Italy ? 

Mr. Matranga. Yes, that is why they gave me the car, to bring him 
over there. Yes, he asked me before. 

Mr. Moser. Now, just for the record I would like to read a letter 
from the New Jersey Department of Motor Vehicles, written June 25, 
1951, addressed to a member of our staff, which says : 

We have examiued the records on file in this office relative to the sale of a 
1948 Oldsmobile, serial No. 98-Lr-20757, engine No. 9-9003-H, 1948 New Jersey 
license plates RU-37-X. The records of this bureau indicate that the motor 
vehicle in question was purchased at 425 Grand Avenue, Palisades Park, N. J., 
under date of April 29, 1948. by Pasquale Matranga, 125 East Fourth Street, 
New York City. When a new automobile is purchased in New Jersey, signature 
of the purchaser is not required on the record of purchase. Therefore, we dc 
not have his signature on this particular transaction. 

The facts stated there are correct ; are they ? 

]\Ir. Matranga. Yes, sure, I signed the paper before they took the 
car. I signed the paper before took the car — bring me the paper, 
and I signed it. 

Mr. Moser. You signed the papers before you took the car ? 

Mr. Matranga. That is right. 

The Chairman. All right ; that is all. 

Mr. Moser. That is all for the jnoment. Thank you. 

TESTIMONY OF MATTHEW LANDY, PALISADES PARK, N. J. 

The Chairman. Mathew Landy. 

Will you stand, please. Do you swear in the presence of Almighty 
God that the testimony you will give in this hearing will be the truth, 
the whole truth, nothing but the truth? 

Mr. Landy. I do. 

The Chairman. Your full name is Matthew Landy ? 

Mr. Landy. Yes. 



340 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Your address? 

Mr. Landy. 425 Grand Avenue, Palisades Park. 

The Chairman. 425 Grand Avenue, Palisades, N. J. ? 

Mr. Landy. Palisades Park, N. J. 

The Chairman. Mr. Landy, will you talk loudly and distinctly, so 
we all can hear, please ? 

Mr. Landy. Yes. 

The Chairman. What is your business ? 

Mr. Landy. Automobile business. 

The Chairman. Mr. Moser. 

Mr. MosER. Mr. Landy, do you recall the sale of a 1948 Oldsmobile 
in May 1948, with license number New Jersey RU-37-X? 

Mr. Landy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. You do recall that. What was the serial number of 
that automobile ? 

Mr. Landy. I have the duplicate copy here. 

Mr. MosER. That is a copy of the bill of sale ? 

Mr. Landy. That is a copy of the receipt before you make the bill 
of sale out. 

Mr. MosER. A copy of your receipt. This identifies the automobile 
as a new automobile, serial No. 98-L-20757, motor No. 9-9003-H, 
price — total price — $2,783.45, issued to Pasquale Matranga. 

When you received payment for that car, did you receive it in cash 
or a check ? 

You have shown me a deposit slip covering this bill of sale with 
the National Bank of Palisades Park, showing deposits of $2,783.45 
in cash ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Landy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever receive the purchaser's signature on that 
purchase ? 

Mr. Landy. It is not necessary. 

Mr. MosER. It is not necessary. Did you know the purchaser? 

Mr. Landy. No, sir ; never seen him before. 

Mr. MosER. You had never seen him before ? 

Mr. Landy. No, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Have you seen him since ? 

Mr. Landy. Just a slight recollection here. 

The Chairman. Who? 

Mr. Landy. Mr. Matranga. 

Mr. MosER. Did the purchaser offer to turn in an automobile at the 
time he purchased this car ? 

Mr. Landy. He talked about it. 

Mr. MosER. Did he have the car with him ? 

Mr. Landy. I saw something outside, didn't even go out. 

Mr. MosER. What kind was it ? 

Mr. Landy. A Dodge or Plymouth or DeSoto, one of those Chrysler 
makes. 

Mr. Moser. Dodge, Plymouth, or DeSoto. Could it have been a 
1937 Dodge? 

Mr. Landy. Possibly. 

Mr. MosER. It could have been. Have you ever seen the man who 
has testified ? 

Mr. Landy. Saw him once. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 341 

Mr. MosER. You have seen him once ? 

Mr. Landy. Twice. 

Mr. MosER. When did you see him ? 

Mr. Landy. At the time of purchase. 

Mr. JNIosER. You saw him at the time of purchase ? 

Mr. Landy. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did he come into your store ? 

Mr. Landy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And what did he say his name was ? 

Mr. Landy. He didn't tell me until I made the bill of sale. 

Mr. MosER. Then he told you his name ? 

Mr. Landy. I took it and wrote it out and had it typed. 

Mr. MosER. He told you his name was Pasquale Matranga ? 

Mr. Landy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. He told you that at the time and you had this typed up 
after his saying that ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Landy. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. He paid you cash ? 

Mr. Landy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And did you ever hear of Anthony Sabio ? 

Mr. Landy. No. 

Mr. MosER. Never heard of him ? 

Mr. Landy. No. 

Mr. MosER. That name didn't appear anywhere ? 

Mr. Landy. No, sir, 

Mr. MosER. This man who just testified is the same person who 
bought the car ? 

]\Ir. Landy. That is my recollection. 

The Chairman. He is the only one you had anything to do with 
in the purchase of the car ? 

Mr. Landy. That is right. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much, sir. 

At this time we will adjourn for the day and resume the hearings 
at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning in this room. 

(Whereupon, at 4:45 p. m., the special committee adjourned, to 
reconvene at 10 a. m., Wednesday, June 27, 1951.) 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



WEDNESDAY, JUNE 27, 1951 

United States Senati:, 
Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce 

Washington^ D. C. 

The special committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 :05 a.m., 
in room 318, Senate Office Building, Senator Herbert R. O'Connor 
(chairman) presiding. 

Present : Senators O'Conor and Wiley. 

Also present : Richard G. Moser, chief counsel ; James M. Hepbron, 
administrative assistant ; John P. Campbell, Roswell B. Perkins, Wal- 
lace Reidt, assistant counsel, and George Martin, director of infor- 
mation. 

The Chairman. The hearing will please come to order. 

The first witness to be called is an agent of the Government. His 
name will be given, and there are no restrictions on the use of any 
testimony which he gives. However, because of the fact that he is 
an agent of the Government and ought not be readily identified by 
the general public, the committee requests that no television or news 
reel or photographs be made of him. Mr. Siragusa. 

In the presence of the Almighty God, do you swear the testimony 
you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the 
truth ? 

Mr. Siragusa. I do. 

The Chairman. Thank you. 

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES SIRAGUSA, AGENT, FEDERAL BUREAU 
OF NARCOTICS 

The Chairman. Your full name, please. 

Mr. Siragusa. Charles Siragusa. 

The Chairman. How do you spell your last name, please ? 

Mr. Siragusa. S-i-r-a-g-u-s-a. 

The Chairman. And, Mr. Siragusa, what is your present position ? 

Mr. Siragusa. I am a narcotics agent, Federal Bureau of Narcotics. 

The Chairman. Narcotics agent. Federal Bureau of Narcotics. 
May I ask, sir, if you will move forward a little bit and talk into the 
mike, and while you are on the stand speak as clearly and as loudly 
as necessary so that all my hear, please. 

Mr. Siragusa. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. How long, Mr. Siragusa, 
have you been engaged in this work ? 

Mr. Siragusa. Approximately 12 years. 

343 



344 ORGAJS^IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Twelve years. In what particular area have you 
worked or areas ? 

Mr. SiRGUASA. Well, I have worked all over the United States and 
Canada, Mexico, and Europe. 

The Chairman. And Europe. And in Europe what country or 
countries have you given especial attention to ? 

Mr. Siragusa. Italy, Turkey, Greece, France, Germany, Lebanon, 
and Syria. 

The Chairman. And did you make particular efforts in respect to 
the distribution of narcotics and the importation into this country of 
narcotics? 

Mr. Siragusa. One of my principal objectives was to gather infor- 
mation and cooperate with the foreign authorities with respect to 
discovering sources of supply of illicit narcotics entering the United 
States. 

The Chairman. I will ask Mr. Moser to please take up the ques- 
tioning. 

Mr. MosER. Mr. Siragusa, it is my understanding that you conducted 
an investigation with regard to Luciano's activity in Italy; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Siragusa. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And m cooperation with the Italian police that you in- 
vestigated the matter of the car that was brought over to him by Mr. 
Matranga ? 

Mr. Siragusa. I did. 

Mr. Moser. What was the result of that investigation so far as 
the car was concerned ? Will you report to us and tell us what you 
got on it? 

Mr. Siragusa. In April, latter part of April, and first part of May, 
I was in the northern section of Italy. 

Senator Wiley. This year? 

Mr. SiRAGi SA. This year, yes, sir; and I was working, together with 
the Italian authorities, some of w^hom were stationed with me in north- 
ern Italy, and the others were stationed in southern Italy. 

While I was stationed at Milano I received numerous reports, both 
verbal and written, from one of th,e Italian officers conducting the 
investigation at Naples, and I was advised about this automobile. 

During my stay in Milano, I received copies of interrogation re- 
ports, statements made by Lucky Luciano to the Italian authorities 
at Naples concerning this automobile and other matters. 

Mr. MosER. Did Luciano make a statement which he signed? 

Mr. Siragusa. Yes, sir ; he made three statements at different times. 

Mr. Moser. To the Italian police ? 

Mr. Siragusa. To the Italian police. 

Mr. Moser. Have you photostatic copies of those statements ? 

Mr. Siragusa. I have. 

Mr. Moser. I see you have one with you. Would you just pull it 
out and tell us, is it signed by Luciano and how is it signed ? 

Mr. Siragusa. I have three reports before me, all three of which 
are signed, and his correct name Salvatore Lucania. 

The Chairman. How do you spell his last name ? 

Mr. Siragusa. L-u-c-a-n-i-a. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 345 

Mr. MosER. That is the same person we call Lucky Luciano ; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. What does he say in there with regard to the car we 
were discussing at yesterday's hearing ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. I am reading from the second page of one of his 
interrogation reports made on May 5, 1951, in Naples. The inter- 
rogation report is in Italian, but I will translate. 

Mr. MosER. It is written in Italian but you are going to translate it? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. All right. 

Mr. SiRAGUSA (reading) : 

The automobile of which I am the present owner, a 1948 Olclsmobile 

Mr. MosER. This is Luciano speaking, is it not ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir — 

is my property. I acquired it 2 years ago from an American citizen, Pasquale 
Matranga, who is now in the United States and precisely in New York City. 

This automobile, bearing license plate RUX-37, from the State of New Jersey. 
This automobile was imported temporarily and I made a request for the importa- 
tion permit. However, up until now I have not as yet received this application 
for importation. This automobile could possibly have the value of .$1,000, and"it 
was given to me as a gift by its last owner, Mr. Pasquale Matranga, an American 
citizen. 

Mr. MosER. He says it was given to him as a gift by Matranga? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Whereas yesterday Matranga testified that he had no 
interest in it at all and merely took it as a messenger; is that correct? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. That is correct. 

Mr. MosER. What else does he say ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA (reading) : 

I believe this Matranga some time ago owned a laundry in New York City. 

Mr. MosER. That is still Luciano speaking? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes. I will go through the other two interrogation 
reports to see if there is anything pertaining to this automobile. 

There is nothing in the other two. 

Mr. MosER. Now, in that affidavit Luciano also makes statements 
with regard to dealings he had with other people from the United 
States, does he not ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. At my request, I was notified by the Italian authori- 
ties that they intended to question Luciano with respect to this nar- 
cotics investigation we had been working upon and relative to other 
matters. 

Mr. MosER. You suspected that Luciano was involved in narcotics 
shipments; is that correct? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir; we had every indication to believe that he 
was directing the activities of this very large, very important narcotics 
distributing network from Italy. 

The Chairman. Are you of that opinion still ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. I am. 

The Chairman. In other words, you feel that Lucky Luciano is 
directly interested in the importation of narcotics into this country 
and the shipment of it from Italy ? 



346 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. SiRAGUSA, I do. 

Mr. MosER. This is heroin you are talking about, it is not ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Heroin. 

Senator Wiley. It is important that we know what you base that 
on. We want the facts. We don't want just guesswork about that. 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Well, if I may enlarge upon some of the facts con- 
cerning this investigation we made in Italy, a few days after I arrived 
in K-ome, Italy, in April, early part of April, the Italian authorities 
arrested an American citizen for possession of three kilos of heroin. 
They arrested him at the Rome airport. 

The Chairman. Rome airport ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Rome airport. About an hour after that arrest 
was made I was in the building, the same building with the Director 
of the Treasury, the Italian Treasury Department office that was 
handling the case. I was called in to see Colonel Montenari, and 
we discussed the arrest of this American for possassion of three kilos 
of heroin. 

Mr. MosER. Who is Colonel Montenari ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Colonel Montenari is the second man in charge of 
the Guardia Finanza, Avhicli corresponds to our Treasury Depart- 
ment. He told me this man had been arrested, told me his name was 
Frank Callace. 

The Chairman. How do you spell the last name? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. C-a-1-l-a-c-e. 

The name Frank Callace was familiar to me because I knew a 
Frank Callace, who was referred to as "Chick 99 from 177th Street." 

The Chairman. In New York City ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. In New York City. 

The Chairman. Had he been known to you as having handled or 
been interested in narcotics? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir; has a previous criminal record for narcotics 
violations. 

Mr. MosEK. Before we come into the Frank Callace case, I would 
like to go back to the question I asked you with regard to other mat- 
ters in that affidavit with regard to Luciano's dealings with people 
in the United States, as a foundation for the Callace case. 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. As I recall, there are some statements about money 
that was brought over from the United States to Luciano; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes. As I started to say before, I had requested 
the authorities when they conducted this interrogation and investiga- 
tion of Luciano, that among other things they should interest them- 
selves in determining the mode of living that Luciano conducted, his 
income, and the source of it. That was one of the things they covered 
in this interrogation statement here made by Lucky. He made cer- 
tain explanations about his mode of living and where he got his money 
from. 

I will translate from the Italian portions : 

In addition to $22,500 which I declared through the Italian police as having 
brousht with me into Italy from America — 

Mr. MosER. This is Luciano speaking? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 347 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. This is Luciano speaking — 

I received other sums of money from America. I have received from Ameri^A 
two or three times certain sums of money, approximately a few thousand dol- 
lars. These sums were brought to me by American citizens who came to fiod 
me and whose identities I do not care to disclose. I say tliat this money 
was brought to me in Italy regularly, and it was given to me, these moneys 
were given to me as gifts by old friends from the United States. During my 
residence in Italy, which has been since 1947, I have tried to establish a pastry 
shop in Palermo with a certain Conte Bova. However, this venture after 2% 
years failed. In connection with this business I lost 7,500,000 lire. In Italy I 
have undertaken no other commercial activity, but I am a lover of horse races. 
I play very often at the horse tracks in Naples. 

I will just scan through this. There are some additional state- 
ments concerning the same question of moneys : 

All of the money which I brought to Italy and that which I have received 
subsequently from my friends in America I have spent. About 500,000 lire a 
month, I expect. Which comes from the United States and not from activities' 
in Italy, because all of the business affairs I have tried to conduct in Italy 
have come to a bad end. 

Mr. MosER. Is the net of that, as you understand it, that Luciano 
says that he had no source of income in Italy except perhaps from 
horse races and that he was living on money that he had brought in 
or had been sent to him or given to him by friends ; is that correct ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. That is correct. 

Mr. MosER. Now let's see who some of his friends are. I under- 
stand that in that list he refers to some of these people that he was 
asked about. Let me first ask you about Nicholai Gentile. Does he 
mention that in his affidavit ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir ; he is mentioned here. 

Mr. MosER. Now who is Nicholai Gentile ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Nicholai Gentile is a gangster from New York City, 
a very notorious man in the rackets. 

Mr. MosER. Has he had any connection with narcotics as far as you 
know ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir ; he was under indictment, I am pretty cer- 
tain it was a narcotics indictment, in New York City when he fled 
to Italy several years ago. 

Mr. MosER. When was that, back in 1930 ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. No, I believe it was just before the beginning of the 
war. 

Mr. MosER. Did he jump bail and go to Italy ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. He jumped bail and went to Italy. 

Mr. MosER. Does Luciano mention Gaetano Chiof alo ? 

The Chairman. How do you spell that name ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. The first name is spelled G-a-e-t-a-n-o. Surname., 
C-h-i-o-f-a-l-o. 

Mr. MosER. Does he mention him ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. He mentions him as well. 

Mr. MosER. He says he knows him ? 

ISIr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir ; he says he knows him. 

Mr. MosER. Is he a man known as Charlie Young ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. That is correct. 

Mr. MosER. Who is he ? 

]Mr. SiRAGUSA. He is another deportee from the United States. 



348 ORGAOSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

jNIr. MosER. And lias he been involved in any narcotics charge? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, he is suspected of being a member of this Italian 
section of the Mafia. 

Mr. MosER. And are they involved in any narcotics charge in Italy ? 

Mr. SiRAGTJSA. At the present time he is not involved in a narcotics 
charge, but in connection with our narcotics investigation of these 
defendants who were arrested and their associates, he was visited by 
the Italian police and arrested for the possession of a gun. 

Mr. MosER. So far as you know, he is not involved in narcotics? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. He is not a defendant in a narcotics case ; no. 

Mr. MosER. Does Luciano in his affidavit also mention Ralph 
Liguori — L-i-g-u-o-r-i ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. L-i-g-u-o-r-i. 

Mr. MosER. Who is he ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Ralph Liguori is another Italian deportee on a nar- 
cotics charge. He was deported to Italy. 

Mr. MosER. He Avas deported on a narcotics charge out of the United 
States ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Does he mention a man named Joe Pici? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, he does. 

Mr. MoSER. P-i-c-i. 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Tell us about Joe Pici. Who is he? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Joe Pici is Lucky Luciano's narcotics lieutenant for 
Italy, and he is now a codef endant in this narcotics investigation which 
was conducted by the Italian authorities. 

Mr. MosER. Did Pici ever live in the United States ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir; he lived in the United States and was 
deported. 

Mr. MosER. For what charge ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. After a white-slave conviction. 

Mr. MosER. Now you have made some investigation of Pici's activi- 
ties, as I understand it. Where do they think he is now ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Well, I searched all over northern and southern Italy 
for him, and he eluded our capture. My opinion is that possibly he 
lias come back into the United States clandestinely. 

]Mr. MosER. Is there any suspicion that he smuggled himself in and 
brought any heroin with him ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Not at the present time, I have no information to 
that effect, but I do know that several years ago we had reason to 
believe that he did smuggle himself back into the United States with 
a quantity of drugs. 

Mr. MosER. A large quantity? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. A large quantity. 

Mr. MosER. Where do they think he took it ? 

]Mr. SiRAGUSA. We got this information after the entire thing had 
trans])ired. We heard that he took 15 kilos of heroin to the Kansas 
City Mafia moh. 

The Chairman. In that connection, Mr. Siragusa, there may be 
some lack of knowledge as to just the quantity to which you refer. 
Will you give some little explanation of the amount of heroin in 
capsule form that might come from that quantity of kilos? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 349 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Well, I have never bothered to estimate the number 
of capsules in a kilo, but a kilo is a fraction over 32 ounces, roughly 
over 2 pounds, and I would say from 2 pounds of this 99 percent pure 
heroin you could probably make several million adulterated capsules. 

The Chairman. Several million? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Several million. 

]\[r. MosER. How many kilos do they think Pici brought in with him 
back in 1948? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Fifteen kilos. 

Mr. MosER. Fifteen kilos? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Fifteen kilos. 

Mr. MosER. So from the point of view of capsules, that is an enor- 
mous quantity; is it not? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. I guess it would be into billions, perhaps a billion 
capsules. 

Ssnntor Wiley. What does a kilo cost in Italy ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. When I was in Italy, when I was there, the clandes- 
tine price ranged from 1,000 to 1,500 American dollars. 

Mr. MosER. How much does a kilo usually sell for in this country? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. When a kilo is first brought into New^ York City, it 
may get as high as $6,000 wholesale price in New York City. In 
Chicago maybe $10,000 a kilo. 

Senator Wiley. Let's get the mathematics of this, Mr. Chairman. 
If that is the case, you say that out of a kilo they could make a million 
pills or doses ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Just about. I would say about a million capsules. 
A capsule contains 1 grain. There are 4371/2 grains to an ounce, and 
there are 32 ounces to a kilo. 

Senator Wiley, Making that into a million capsules, $2 apiece, 
would make about $2,000,000 for an original investment of $1,500 or 
$1,000. 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir ; the profit is tremendous. 

Mr. MosER. Have you found any evidence of communication be- 
tween Pici and Luciano ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir; we did. 

Mr. MosER. What was the nature of that ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. This all resulted from these arrests we made of 
Callace, the American citizen, and his uncle who bears the same first 
and surname. 

Mr. MosER. Did you find any telephone calls between Lucky and 
Pici? I 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir; Pici was living with the Callaces in 
Milano. 

Mr. MosER. He telephoned to Lucky ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. He didn't telephone Lucky directly from that hotel, 
but he did telephone him from his residence about 50 miles from 
Milano, and he had been seen by the Italian authorities in company 
with Luciano — Pici and Luciano. 

]Mr. MosER. Who is Thomas Moreno ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Thomas Moreno is a Brooklyn gangster. 

Mr. MosER. Has he had any dealings with Lucky, so far as you 
know ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Well, he is a close associate of Lucky. 

85277—51— pt. 14 23 



350 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. Now, you started to discuss the case of Callace. As I 
understand the Callace story that you will tell us, it is a typical Mafia 
operation ; is that correct ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir ; it is. 

Mr. MosER. As I understand it, you are of Italian descent; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. That is correct. 

Mr. MosER. A Sicilian ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And you speak Italian ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. I do. 

Mr. MosER. And have you had any opportunity to study the Mafia 
at all? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. I have. 

Mr. MosER. Just tell us generally — well, first tell us about the Cal- 
lace story and then point out how you think it is a typical Mafia 
situation. 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Well, you have this Frank Callace, this 28-year-old 
man from One-hundred and Seventh Street who goes to Italy. 

Mr. MosER. He is a member of what is called the One-hundred-and- 
Seventh-Street mob; is that correct? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir; in fact, he lives on One-hundred and 
Seventh Street. 

Mr. MosER. He went to Italy what year? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. He went to Italy in April of 1951. 

Mr. MosER. And where did he go first ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Well, he made a beeline right for Palermo, where 
he met his uncle by the same name. 

Mr. MosER. The uncle is named Frank Callace? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Frank Callace, and he fled from the United States. 
He was wanted by the FBI. 

Mr. MosER. Then he joined his uncle in Palermo. What did 
they do? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. The two of them went to Milano. 

Mr. MosER. You know all this because they were tailed or followed ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Well, actually all this investigation, that took place 
after the first arrest. We just backtracked and got all of this informa- 
tion from hotel records and other witnesses. 

Mr. MosER. I see. All right. He and his uncle then went to Milan ; 
is that correct ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. MosER. What did they do there ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. In Milan they met Joe Pici. 

Mr. MosER. Where? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. In the hotel Albergo Milano. 

Mr. MosER. Albergo? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. That means hotel, Hotel Milano. 

Mr. MosER. They met Joe Pici there? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. They met him there. 

Mr. MosER. Did he seem to know they were coming? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, upon analyzing this case, the whole thing was 
well conceived, well organized, and it was not a hit-or-miss proposi- 
tion. 



ORGAJSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 351 

Mr. MosER. You think that Pici was an emissary of Luciano? 

Mr. SiRAGusA. I don't think he is his emissary. I think he is in 
charge of handling all of Lncky's narcotics dealings in Italy. 

Mr. MosER. He is sort of his lieutenant for narcotics ; is that right ? 

Mr. SiRAGusA. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. All right. They met Pici in Milan and what did they 
do then? 

Mr. SiRAGTJSA. They had some negotiations as to the quantity and 
the price of the drugs. 

Mr. MosER. Did they communicate with anybody else while they 
were in Milan? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. They made very many telephone calls from this 
hotel, the hotel room registered to the two Callace men. 

Mr. MosER. To where? 

Mr. SniAGusA. Many telephone calls were made all over northern 
Italy. Some were made by the Callaces; some telephone calls were 
made by Pici himself. 

Mr. MosER. And after they negotiated with Pici in Milan at the 
hotel, then what do you think they did ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Well, we know what they did. It is not what we 
think, because this is all verified by the investigation we made of the 
hotel employees and records. 

Mr. MosER. What happened? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. They checked out of the hotel, two Callaces; they 
returned to Palermo ; they there then received a telephone call from 
Pici in Milan telling the two Callaces to return to Milano. 

The two Callaces went back to Milano; they had another meeting- 
at the same hotel with Pici, and Pici sold them three kilos of heroin. 

Senator Wiley. How do you know that? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. We have admissions by the Callaces. 

Senator Wiley. Have you got the heroin ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir ; we have the heroin in Italy. 

Mr. MosER. Didn't you receive some kind of tip after they had 
received this heroin ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. Here is where we stepped into the picture. 
They left Milan by airplane en route for Palermo, which is about 
seven or eight hundred miles. The police at Rome received an anony- 
mous telephone tip that on this particular airplane a Callace was to be 
a passenger on this plane and he would have a quantity of drugs. The 
Italian police met that plane and they arrested the nephew, Frank 
Callace. 

Mr. MosER. That is the young man from the One Hundred and 
Seventh Street mob? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. They arrested him at Rome? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. At the Rome airport. 

Mr. MosER. What did they find ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. They found three kilos of heroin in a suitcase. 

Mr. MosER. In his possession? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. In his possession. He was carrying the suitcase. 
The Italian police did not know at that time there were two Callaces 
on the airplane. They just arrested the young Callace. 

Mr. MosER. And the uncle got away? 



352 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. SiRAGUsA. He got away temporarily but not for long. 

Mr. MosER. Then what happened? 

Mr. SiKAGTJSA. I spoke with the Italian police, and I saw the de- 
fendant, I saw the heroin ; I questioned the defendant about his uncle 
or whoever had the same name and complete first and surname as he, 
and he gave me evasive answers, which led me to believe that his 
uncle was possibly on the same airplane with him. 

So, we telephoned the Guardia Finanza office in Palermo, and they 
arrested Frank Callace, the uncle. 

Mr. MosER. After you made these arrests, you went back and traced 
all this and reconstructed the story ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir; I worked with the Italian police approxi- 
mately a month, and they are still working on the case. 

Mr. MosER. You said that when the young Callace came to Italy 
from the United States he went directly to see his uncle. And you 
said this is a typical Mafia case. Why do you say that ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Well, in narcotics we beheve, and we are pretty cer- 
tain of our opinion, narcotics is probably the most — well, they derive 
their largest income; it is their most profitable venture. Here we 
have an American 

The Chairman. What is? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Narcotics distribution and smuggling. 

Mr. MosER. You mean narcotics distribution and smuggling is the 
principal source of income of the Mafia ; is that correct? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. All right. You say this young man came over to Italy. 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. This man came from America. He was told whom 
to contact, and in this particular case he knew who the person was 
because it was his uncle, and he knew him from One Hundred and 
Seventh Street. We have pretty good knowledge as to the identity of 
the person who sent him from One Hundred and Seventh Street, but 
the Italian authorities are still working on that phase of it, as to the 
identity of the man in New York. 

Callace sees his uncle, and his uncle immediately takes him to Pici. 
Pici is Luciano's man, and it is just a well-conceived operation. 

After the arrest of these people we went into the question of their 
associates, by telephone calls, visitors they had received in these differ- 
ent hotels and night clubs, and they were all friends of Lucky, many of 
whom he admitted knowing and having seen many times ; but he would 
not say as to what type of transactions he was conducting with these 
men. 

Mr. MosER. I believe you told me one time that you are sometimes 
able to identify leaders in the Mafia by some title they have ; is that 
correct? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. What is that title? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Well, the big shots of the Mafia, the older men, the 
men that sit in on these grand councils, these policy meetings, are 
referred to by the name of Don. 

Mr. MosER. That is a title that shows they are high in the Mafia ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. It is the title of respect given to members of the 
higher echelon of the Mafia. 



ORGAJv^lZED CRIME IN INTEKSTATE COMMERCE 353 

Mr. MosER. Did you find that any of these associates of Call ace that 
you checked up on, including Luciano's associates, were called Don in 
that manner ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes. Lucky himself and Nicholai Gentile. 

Mr. MosER. They both are? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. They both are. They are the only two in Italy at the 
present time who originally came from America, that I know of, that 
have that title of Don. 

Mr. MosER. A large number of the Majfia were driven out of Italy 
at one time ; were they not ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes ; they were driven out by Mussolini. 

Mr. MosER. Mussolini got rid of them ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. They came to this country ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Some of them are being deported and sent back? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. That is right. 

The Chairman. Are you of the opinion that a number are still here? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. A number of Mafia members ? 

The Chairmax. Yes. 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. A lot ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. A lot of them. 

The Chairman. Senator Wiley. 

Senator Wilet. What steps, in your judgment, could be taken to 
get rid of the IMafia in this country ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. I don't know about actually getting rid of thera, 
but I think the biggest issue is there should be much larger peniten- 
tiary sentences given to these men. It is no deterrent to them to re- 
ceive the lenient sentences which they have in the past. 

Senator AViley. You mean sentences for violation of the narcotics 
law? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. You say that the Mafia exists here. Does Luciano 
have proven confederates or associates in other countries than Italy 
and the United States? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. I do know — this is again just information which I 
tried to verify when I was in Europe — that he was trying to branch 
out; he had received visas from several foreign countries adjoining 
Italy. In fact, he had received these visas, and at my request the 
Italian Government took his passport, and we tried — I think we suc- 
ceeded in getting a promise from these foreign countries to cancel 
his visas. 

All of this was predicated on information we had that he had 
made a trip to Germany, I believe it was last year, October of 1950, 
in which he was trying to organize the rackets in Germany. 

Senator Wiley. Apparently the Italian Government is cooperat- 
ing with us here, as you stated. What about our Government, which 
gives visas to folks to go to Italy to cooperate in this nefarious busi- 
ness with Luciano ? Have you anything to say about that ? 

Why should visas be issued to these fellows that they know are con- 
federates of a fellow like Luciano ? 



354 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. SiRAGusA. Well, it just so happens, that many of these big-time 
hoodlums and racketeers do get passports to visit foreign countries, 
contrary to our recommendations. 

Senator Wiley. In other words, you recommended against it and 
the Department has given them to them? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Well, isn't that one way to kind of check this 
nefarious trade between Italy and other countries that produce this 
heroin ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. I think that is an excellent suggestion, to cancel 
their passports, because in this narcotics business, which is no longer 
restricted to the United States, it is international commerce, so to 
speak, and by granting these passports we are giving these racket- 
eers an opportunity to further their activities. 

Senator Wiley. We ought to do more than that. We ought to 
cancel their citizenship; hadn't we, and get rid of this scum that is 
striking at the very vitals of this country ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. I am in favor of that. 

Senator Wiley. Do you think Luciano has any confederates in 
Cuba? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. At the present time I don't know of any he has, but 
I do know several years ago he was in Cuba and enjoyed many privi- 
leges there. 

Senator Wiley. Now, you are of Italian descent, and we want to 
make it clear, because I think all over America some of our best citi- 
zens are Italians. You think only relatively few of the Italian people 
are mixed up in this Mafia business ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Have you any basis whatever to give us an esti- 
mate of the extent of the Mafia in this country ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Well, I would say that in all principal cities there 
are segments of the Mafia, and I would say that New York City prob- 
ably has the big bosses. 

Senator Wiley. Do you know whether the police department or the 
police of the State or the State has taken any particular action against 
an organization which you say derives its principal income from the 
narcotics trade ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. I do know that the New York City Police Depart- 
ment has a very efficient narcotics squad, and we work with them. 
Any cases of an interstate nature that they do get they refer to us. 
They principally handle the local problem, the retail distribution. 
We concentrate in our New York office as well as all our other offices 
principally on interstate distributing organizations. 

Senator Wiley. Now, you have given us a pretty clear-cut factual 
statement showing Luciano's connection in Italy with the trade in 
this country. Have you any information to tell us whether or not 
Luciano has the power to enforce his connections here through threat- 
ening or coercion or through gunmen or any other method ? If he is 
the kingpin, we want to know how far his domain extends. 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. From what I have seen, and I have spoken to some 
members of his gang there in an undercover capacity, I would say, if 
he is not the kingpin, he is one of the royal family, and the fact "that 
he receives these large sums of money from these American gangsters 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 355 

indicates to me that he has definite word in policy matters and that 
he is still deriving an income from American rackets. 

He fails to tell us the names of any of these men, and I am certain 
that he is only giving a very small estimate of the actual amount of 
money which he does receive from American racketeers. 

Senator Wiley. You very dynamically stated he is one of the royal 
family. Let us see. Does that mean he has this ])ower that can en- 
force through gunmen and coercion and threats his mandate here 
in this country ? 

Mr. SiRAGusA. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. That is what you mean ? 

Mr. SiRAGTJSA. That is what I mean. 

Senator Wiley. Now, is heroin manufactured in Italy ? 

Mr. SiRAGusA. Heroin at the present time is legally manufactured 
in Italy. There are four heroin manufacturers in Italy. 

Senator Wiley. You say "legally"; you mean it is permitted? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. It is permitted ; yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. What steps does Italy take to see that it doesn't 
spread in her own country, the use of it ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. From a trip I made to Italy this year and one I made 
to Italy last year, we established very good relations with the Italian 
Government, and they have shown "their sincerity to cope with this 
problem. 

As a result of my trip to Italy last year, they agreed to restrict 
their production from 150 kilos a year to 50 kilos. 

Senator Wiley. The over-all production in the three factories, or 
whatever it is 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. In the four factories. The over-all production. Be- 
cause from the last investigation we made last year, plus this one, 
we had actual proof that these racketeers in Italy were buying drugs 
through these four manufacturers, not directly from them but through 
wholesalers and retailers, and diverting it to the illicit traffic. 

Senator AViley. Then there is bootlegging in it, I presume. 

Mr. SiRxVGusA. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. You have got that reduced to 50 kilos. Now, then, 
have you got any agreement as to the supervision of those 50 kilos, 
how it is distributed? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. That is another objective I worked on in 
Italy. I spoke to the Commissioner of Public Health, who has juris- 
diction over the production and consumption of heroin, and they have 
agreed — in fact, they started to imi:)lement this program when I was 
still there — for a stricter control of drugs produced by these manu- 
facturers to avoid these drugs getting into illicit channels. 

Senator Wiley. Well, that is vei-y interesting. What I am getting 
at is whether or not Italy is ready to collaborate with us to the extent 
that none of these drugs can legally be exported to the United States, 
unless it is pursuant to a certain pattern under Government super- 
vision, and that, if that is violated, whoever violates it will be subject 
to severe penalty in Italy. 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Perhaps I didn't make myself quite clear. The 150 
kilos and the 50 kilos now which they more recently agreed to limit 
production to was only for their own consumption. At no time has 
the American Government imported any heroin from Italy, because 



356 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

heroin is contraband as such in the United States, and we do not 
import heroin legally. 

Senator Wiley. Probably you did not understand my question. It 
was whether Italy will make laws so that if anyone then attempts to 
export or does export to the United States heroin, which they can 
legally manufacture up to 50 kilos, that that person will be guilty 
of a crime in Italy and be subject to severe penalty. 

It seems to me you have to penalize at both ends of the line. I want 
to know whether we have got it into effect over tiiere. 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. They have the same lenient sentences there, and I 
think they were only giving a maximum of 2-year sentences. The 
statutory limit was 3. The most they ever gave was 2. I hope that 
in possibly some future visits to continue my discussions with the 
Italians to have them possibly amend their laws, to increase the punish- 
ment. 

Senator Wiley. You might tell them I think the time of our being 
so naive in foreign relations is passed. We have spent a billion dollars 
in Italy in 1 year to resuscitate her economically and politically, and 
we are certainly entitled to, when we make it illegal to have heroin 
imported into this country, to ask her to pass laws so that anyone who 
violates the exportation of that stuff from Italy to this country is 
subject to severe punishment in Italy. 

We just visited an institution that is costing us better than $2 mil- 
lion a year to operate and it will cost a good deal more before we are 
through. We had to build the institution at the expense of millions 
of dollars. That is just one institution. 

We are interested in preserving the physical and mental and spirit- 
ual life of our youth and children. I am sure thinking people in Italy 
feel the same way. No group of men who manufacture poison of this 
character should have any power in government, Italian or American, 
to so use it that it will destroy the life of our youth. 

I think if you can work out that policy, sir, that Italy will say to 
America in no uncertain terms, "We will cooperate with you a hun- 
dred percent to the extent t hat we will see that laws are passed making 
it a severe felony if anyone exports this stuff that we permit the manu- 
facture of to America." 

I think they would be glad if that approach is made to cooperate. 
I thank you, sir. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Wiley. 

I have just one or two questions. Of course, we realize that you 
cannot give the detail and a lot of information is confidential, but 
based upon your study of this entire situation and your close-up con- 
tact, are you prepared to say that Lucky Luciano is the kingpin of the 
narcotics traffic in the United States ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. I would say the United States and Italy. 

The Chairman. The United States and Italy. Now, you made ref- 
erence a minute or two ago to the existence of the Mafia in this coun- 
try, and you stated that it possibly has its greatest membership in New 
York City. Did we understand you correctly ? 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Without giving any details of the information on 
which you base it, which of course may be dangerous to do right now, 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 357 

or adverse to the interests of the country, in what other States do you 
think the Mafia exists and is functioning? 

Mr. SiRAGusA, Well, all the principal cities — Chicago, Detroit, Los 
Angeles, San Francisco, Kansas City, Cleveland, most of the principal 
cities. 

The Chairman. I see. All right thank you. 

Mr. Moser, do you have anything further ? 

Mr. MosER. Mr. Siragusa, do you know who Jack Sparacino is? 

Mr. Siragusa. Yes, sir ; I do. 

The Chairman. Will you spell that last name, please. 

Mr. Siragusa. S-p-a-r-a-c-i-n-o. 

Mr. MosER. Is he an associate of Lucky Luciano's ? 

Mr. Siragusa. He is claimed to be. 

Mr. Moser. The reason I am asking about that is that we will have 
other witnesses later on who link him into this, and I just wanted to 
identify him. Thank you very much. 

The Chairman. Thank you. 

Senator Wiley, I have another question. 

The Chairman. Senator Wiley. 

Senator Wiley. This Mafia organization — when we were down in 
Kansas City at a previous hearing, it seemed to be that over a period 
of years a number of murders were committed and were unsolved. 
They appeared to be laid at the door of the Mafia. 

When we were out in California examining someone out there, a 
lawyer that sat as close to his client, far nearer than I am sitting to 
you, the next week he had his head blown off. That was laid to the 
Mafia. 

What I am trying to got at is : Why can't we solve these murders ? 
Why can't the best police brains and other agencies that we have 
find the guilty ones who do these things ? 

Mr. Siragusa. Well, I have an opinion about that. They have ven- 
dettas historically and I believe that many witnesses, possibly in some 
of these murder investigations, are Italians and though they them- 
selves are not necessarily members or engaged in any Mafia activities, 
they know of the retributions that would be inflicted upon anyone that 
would talk. 

Senator Wiley. I think you probably hit at the very core of this 
matter when you say there is a fear of retribution. 

Mr. Siragusa. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Well, you have got to hand it to Mussolini then. 
He didn't fear them. He went at it and cleaned them out. Certainly, 
we are not going to admit that what Mussolini could do, we couldn't 
do in this country, especially if it means that the result of this organi- 
zation is that they are creating in the minds of the Italian people a 
fear so that they will not respond to their responsibilities to appre- 
hend criminals everywhere and give to the public the information 
necessary in order that murder cannot become a paying business. 

Mr. Siragusa. In Italy's Fascist days they used many police meth- 
ods which under our laws could not be used. 

Senator Wiley. Do you want to specify? 

Mr. Siragusa. Well, I mean that there is no such thing as an arrest 
requiring a search warrant. If they want a man, they get him and 
put him in jail for several weeks without any legal proceedings. They 



358 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

use hostages. If they want a man, for instance, who committed an 
armed robbery, I have reference to the name of a man that cropped 
up in this investigation we are working on now, they would just take 
his mother and the word would pass out that if so-and-so didn't sur- 
render, his mother would be kept in jail indefinitely. 

Those are the methods they used in those days. The police meth- 
ods now are more democratic. 

Senator Wiley. I wouldn't suggest anything of that character, but 
I would not admit that we are unable to cope with this problem once 
we center our attention to it. I think it must be met. Otherwise it 
will lay a pattern for other organizations to think they are bigger 
than the state. 

Mr. SiRAGUSA. Well, if we have more facilities, I believe we can 
make a success of it. I am speaking of our oiRce particularly. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Siragusa. We are very much 
obliged to you for your help. 

The next witness is an inmate of one of the institutions, and we re- 
quest that the same conditions be observed inasmuch as he will not be 
televised. The name will be given to the reporter. 

Raise your right hand. In the presence of Almighty God, do you 
swear the testimony you will give will be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth ? 

Mr.- — . I do. 



TESTIMONY OF 



The Chairman. What is your age? 

Mr. . Forty-one. 

The Chairman. JForty-one? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Will you just move up front a little bit and talk 
into the microphone, and while 3^011 are on the stand keep your voice 
up so that all may hear you. 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. From what city do 3^011 come? 

Mr. . From Baltimore, Md. 

The Chairman. From Baltimore? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. What do you do for a living ? 

Mr. . I am a musician, play music. 

The Chairman. Play music. For how long have you been engaged 
in that work ? 

Mr. . I would say about approximately 20 to 23 years. 

The Chairman. Twenty to twenty-three years? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What has been the rate of your salary from that 
work? 

Mr. . Well, it has been to my remembrance up to $250. 

The Chairman. Up to $250 ? 

Mr. . A week. 

The Chairman. In addition to playing, do you do anything else? 

Mr. . Well, I am a cabinet maker. 

The Chairman. But I meant in regard to, first of all, in respect 
to music. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMIVIERCE 359 

Mr. . I write a little. 

The Chairman. You have written music? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. When you tell us that your income has been up to 
$250 a week, do you mean by that that it includes the pay for both 
playing and writing, or would that be separate ? 

Mr. . In a way it would be separate because I would only 

write for various "combos." 

The Chairman. Various 

Mr. . "Combos" — small bands. 

The Chairman. In what cities have you played ? 

Mr. . From Newport News to Canada, New England States, 

Southern States, Eastern States. 

The Chairman. So that you played all along the Atlantic seaboard, 
I guess. 

Mr. . Somewhat, yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In different cities I mean, in the different States. 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Have you used narcotics? 

Mr. . I have. 

The Chairman. At what age did you begin 

Mr. . About 20— in 1931. 

The Chairman. In 1931, that is about 20 years ago. 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. What drug did you use ? 

Mr. . Well, heroin. 

The Chairman. Before though you started using heroin what, if 
anything, did you do? 

Mr. . "Well, I smoked "reefers." 

The Chairman. Smoked "reefers," marijuana? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And what were you doing at that time ? 

Mr. — . Well, I had just come out of Douglas High School. 

The Chairman. You need not mention the name of the school. 
Were you in high school ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What was your age then ? 

Mr. . About 16 or 17. 

The Chairman. Sixteen or seventeen. And were you using it at 
the time you were in school ? 

Mr. . No, I wasn't. 

The Chairman. Just at the time you came out of school ; are we to 
understand that ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. And did you know whether others were using it 
about of your same age ? 

Mr. . Well, I would say a few. 

The Chairman. About how many of the same age at the time that 
you were using marijuana, we are talking about now, alone. 

Mr. . I couldn't definitely give you 

The Chairman. Couldn't you give us an estimate ? 

Mr. . No ; I wouldn't dare say, sir. 

The Chairman. But there were others using it ? 



360 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. . Yes ; but they were not in school. 

The Chairman. They were not in school. I am talking about the 
time you were using it when you came out of school. 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Wliere would you get it? 

Mr. . Well, from various people. 

The Chairman. On the street or in stores or where? 

Mr. . On the street, perhaps in stores. 

The Chairman. And what did you pay for it ? 

Mr. . Two of them for a quarter, 25 cents. 

The Chairman. Two for 25 cents. How long did you continue 
to use marijuana in that way? 

Mr. . I would say about a year or so. 

The Chairman. And then what did you do ? 

Mr. . Then I went, the next step was heroin. 

The Chairman. The next step was heroin. How did you come to 
use heroin ? 

Mr. . Well, through being inquisitive, I would say. 

The Chairman. And did anybody suggest it to you or did you just 
take it up yourself ? 

Mr. . I taken that upon myself, no one suggested anything. 

The Chairman. Had you heard anything about its use by others? 

Mr. . No. As I said before, I was inquisitive, and they would 

tell me not to be around, move on, et cetera, and while telling me that 
it made me more curious. 

The Chairman. W^iat did j^ou do? 

Mr. . Then when I first had the chance, then I used it. 

The Chairman. You used it? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Where did you get it? 

Mr. . Well, from a friend. 

The Chairman. And how did you use it when you first began ? 

Mr. . Well, sniffing. 

The Chairman. Did you sniff it first ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you use it "skin popping," too ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. After that ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. And did you later on use it "main lining" ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Into the vein? 

Mr. . That is right, sir. 

The Chairman. How long did you continue to sniff it? 

Mr. . I only sniffed it a couple of times. I disliked that. 

The Chairman. Disliked that. Then you changed to what ? 

Mr. . Skin shots. 

The Chairman. Skin shots ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. How long did you continue to take these skin 
shots? 

Mr. . About a year or so, I would say. 

The Chairman. About a year? 



ORGAiSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COROIERCE 361 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Then went to using it into the vein ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did anyone else help you to do that or show you 
how to do it ? 

Mr. ■ . A friend that I received it from, he gave me the first 

one? 

The Chairman. The friend from whom you received it gave you 
the first one ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Now after you started to use it "main lining," how 
much of it were you taking ? 

Mr. . I was taking from three to four capsules. 

The CiLMRMAN. A day ? 

Mr. — — ■ — . A day, yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How much were you paying for it? 

Mr. . Three dollars. 

The Chairman. Three dollars a piece? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. That would be $9 to $12 a day ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chair:man. And how often would you take it? That is to 
say, would that be every day ? 

Mr. . Well, some days it would be less and the next day it 

probably would be that. The same as people would eat, I would 
say. 

The Chairman. Would you average $9 to $12 a day ? 

Mr. . About that ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. About that. Now, how long did you continue on 
that habit? 

Mr. . Well, until my first arrest. 

The Chairman. When was that? 

Mr. . It was in 1939, if I am not mistaken. 

The Chairman. 1939? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman, Then upon being arrested at the time, back in 1939, 
that was 12 years ago, did you attempt to get off the habit? 

Mr, , Well, I was taken off the habit; yes, sir. 

The Chairman, Were you arrested and kept in custody? 

Mr. . That is right. 

The Chairman. What were the reactions, what were your reac- 
tions? Did you have any withdrawal 

Mr. . Ailments such as my body was aching, and so forth, 

and different symptoms, loose running eyes, nose. 

The Chairman. Was your suffering very great? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And for how long? 

Mr. . Well, maybe 10 or 14 days. 

The Chairman. Can you give us a little more description of it as 
to how bad it was, your suffering at the time of your withdrawal ? 

Mr. . Well, that made me feel real old like I had rheumatism 

or perhaps had been in an accident or something: back was hurtino;. 



362 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMjVIERCE 

The Chairman. And did that continue while you were in the 
institution ? 

Mr. . No ; it wore off. 

The Chairman. It wore off? 

Mr. . Yes. Yi 

The Chairman. But it was pretty bad for that first period? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. Now after you got out of the institu- 
tion, then what did you do ? 

Mr. . I stayed away for a while and then finally wandered 

back to the same old habit. 

The Chairman. When was that that you started up again ? 

Mr. . Around 1942. 

The Chairman. 1942? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Then did you continue on it ? 

Mr. . I did ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All along? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Until 

Mr. . Until the next arrest. 

The Chairman. When was that? 

Mr. . About 1946. 

The Chairman. 1946. Did the habit increase or were you reduced? 

Mr. . It was about the same. 

The Chairman. About the same. Now, without going into all the 
details, did you go off it again for a short period ? 

Mr. . No ; I was sent to Lexington. 

The Chairman. I will come to that in a second. You went to Lex- 
ington. Were you benefited there? 

Mr.* . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And how long did you remain at Lexington ? 

Mr. . For 24 months. 

The Chairman. And came out when? 

Mr. . Came out in 1950. 

The Chairman. Last year? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And after you came out, how long were you away 
from the habit ? 

Mr. . About 9 months to a year. 

The Chairman. When did you start up again? 

Mr. . After 9 months, I would say. 

The Chairman. How long ago? 

Mr. . When I came out of Lexington. 

The Chairman. Did you continue on the use of it until recently? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And at what rate? How much were you using? 

Mr. . Well, approximately the same. 

The Chairman. Three or four capsules a day ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Would it be costing you that much, $65 to $75 a 
week ? 

Mr. . Well, if I stayed in Baltimore, it Would. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 363 

The Chairman. Why? 

Mr. . Because it cost $3 in Baltimore. 

The Chairman. Capsules cost $3 in Baltimore. What was your 
experience elsewhere? 

Mr. . It would be less. Say a dollar and a quarter some 

cities. 

The Chairman. What cities was it a dollar and a quarter or a 
dollar? 

Mr. . Around up North, from New York down. 

The Chairman. In New York. Did you get it in New York? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Very often ? 

Mr. . Well, wiien I needed it. 

The Chairman. And what did you pay for it? 

Mr. . A dollar. 

The Chairman. Was that the regular price? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In what cities was the price a dollar and a quarter 
apiece ? 

Mr. . From New York back I would say, including Philly. 

The Chairman. And were there any other places where the cost 
of it was the same as in Baltimore, $3 a capsule ? 

Mr. . Well, around Chicago and places like that. 

The Chairman. Now upon going into those cities how would you 
know where to get the drug ? 

Mr. . Well, it is just the same as — a drug has become same 

as any other project to me. I didn't have much trouble getting it. 

The Chairman. Was it as plentiful as that? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, was it easy for you to get ? 

Mr. . Not too hard. 

The Chairman. Not too hard. In how many different cities did 
you get it, as far as you know ? 

Mr. . Well, practically in every city that I entered. 

The Chairman. And could you just give us an idea of how many 
that would be, whether it would be 10, 15, 20, or 30 ? 

Mr. . About 10 to 15. 

The Chairman. Ten to fifteen different cities ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And generally cities along the coast here ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I suppose that you were moving around from one 
city to another in connection with your music playing in the band. 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did the people in charge of the band know you 
were using it? 

Mr. . No ; I don't think they did. 

The Chairman. Well, upon going into another city, would you take 
with you any supply or would you have to get it as soon as you got 
there? 

Mr. . I would prepare myself for the trip. 

The Chairman. You would prepare yourself for the trip ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 



364 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIi^IAIERCE 

The Chairman. And would it always last you ? 

Mr. . Not all times. 

The Chairman. Until you made a contact in the next city. 

Mr. . Sometimes it would and sometimes it wouldn't. 

The Chairman. How about on those occasions when it would not 
last you, what would you do then ? 

Mr. . If I couldn't, it was a time I couldn't receive it there, 

then I would go to the place I knew I could. 

The Chairman. Did you have anybody in the band you could bor- 
row some from or get some from ? 

Mr. . I stayed practically to myself, the same as I did in 

Baltimore. 

The Chairman. Now, in Baltimore, I want to ask you with regard 
to the supply. Did you have any difficulty getting it there over the 
years ? 

Mr. . Well, at times I did. 

The Chairman. Sometimes it was harder to get than others ? 

Mr. — . Yes, sir. 

The Chairjman. When you were using three and four capsules a 
day, every day in the week, were there times when that was happening? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many would you buy at one time? 

Mr. . I would buy from two to three, maybe two or three. 

The Chairman. What was the largest amount of money you paid 
for a supply at one time? 

Mr. . Well, I have paid as high as a hundred dollars. 

The Chairman. A hundred dollars ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. Bought a hundred dollars' worth at one time? 
Would you get a reduction when you bought that much? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In Baltimore did you have to change or did the 
peddlers change on you and you couldn't always get it from the same 
peddler ? 

Mr. . Well, at times it did. It happened that way ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How would you know when one peddler disap- 
peared, how to begin again and where to make contact? 

Mr. . Well, it is a sort of a code and the news doesn't want 

for carrying. It gets around. 

The Chairman. Sort of a code? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, were you in touch with other addicts ? 

Mr. . Well, at times you have to come in contact with them. 

The Chairman. So that, are we to understand that you learned from 
other addicts of the fact that a new peddler was around ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Were they on the streets or in stores or residences? 

Mr. . Well, they would be on the streets. 

The Chairman. Was there any effort on their part to avoid detec- 
tion or arrest? 

Mr. . I don't quite get you. 

The Chairman. The peddlers, what did they do? Did they say 
anything to you as to the fact that they were trying to be careful and 
not get locked up ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 365 

Mr. . Well, I would say "Yes." 

The Chairman. I think you told us before that in this city it was 
as easy to get as a certain soft drink. 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chairman. It was? 

Mr. . Yes. 

The CiiAiR]MAN. I think you also told us when you were using it at 
the time you came out of school there were about a hundred others that 
3'ou knew using it. 

Mr. . Yes ; but that didn't refer to being in school. 

The Chairman. I meant the hundred other people around that were 
using it. 

Mr. . Yes. 

The Chair]vian. Would that be accurate? Is that about what you 
believe to be true? 

Mr. ■ . Well, I couldn't definitely say. Like I said before, be- 
cause same as it is now, it is people that you see, you know, someone 
else tells you they are indulging, and so you just take it upon yourself 
that they are, because you didn't think he would tell you false. 

The Chairman. But you did tell us about a hundred, I think. 

Mr. • . Yes; but it wasn't referring to school kids. 

The Chairman. Senator Wiley? 

Senator AVilet. Did you lose your job? 

Mr. . When I was arrested ; yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. What are you doing now ? 

Mr. . I am serving 2 years in the Maryland House of 

Correction. 

Senator Wiley. That is because of some crime ? 

Mr. . Violation of narcotics. 

Senator Wiley. What do you do ? Peddle it ? 

Mr. — . No, sir. 

Senator Wiley. What ? 

Mr. . Use it. 

Senator Wiley. And as I get your previous answers, you said you 
got started about 20 years ago, after you left school. 

Mr. -. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wileit. You say it was a friend that got you to take these 
cigarettes, or reefers ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. You have had plenty of suffering as a result of it, 
have you not? 

Mr. . Yes, sir, I have. 

Senator Wiley. If you had known what you were up against, would 
you have started taking even reefers ? 

Mr. . No, I would not. 

Senator Wiley. What advice have you got to give to those who have 
not started ? 

Mr. . That they would spend most of their time in some 

institution. 

Senator Wiley. Is that the only advice ? 

Mr. . That is the only advice I actually could give, because 

as far as committing any crime to others, I only did it to myself, the 
harm, as far as drugs are concerned. 

85277— 51— pt. 14 24 



366 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Wiley. What you mean is that you will tell all America, 
particularly the young people, never to start in even smoking mari- 
juana, and under no circumstances become a sucker for some of these 
peddlers ; is that right ? 

Mr. . That is right. 

Senator Wiley. Have you any estimate how much money you have 
spent over the years for this drug, heroin, briefly ? 

Mr. . All that I have earned, I would say. 

The Chairman. All that you have earned ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Senator Wiley. And you said that you earned as much as $250 a 
week. So that would mean that probably with vacations, you made 
at least as much money as a Senator makes on his job, and that all 
went for heroin ; is that right ? 

Mr. . Well, I would say most of it did, besides other expenses 

of clothing, living. 

Senator Wiley. You never accumulated any property or any re- 
serve of any kind ? 

Mr. . No, I have not. 

Senator Wiley. So you shot your entire earnings into this terrific 
habit? 

Mr. , Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. In other words, you have enriched the drug ped- 
dler and the heroin importer and the crooks that live off of the weak- 
nesses of the American people ; that is what you have done, is it not ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. And you say to all of America, "Don't take the 
first shot"? 

Mr. . That is right. 

Senator Wiley. Do you want to tell us how you first got in contact 
with the peddler? Who brought you in contact with this peddler? 
Of heroin, I am talking about. 

Mr. . I went to seek him myself after I first got the shot, 

because it was something I liked, like other people perhaps go for 
whisky. I wanted to get the thrill from it. 

Senator Wiley. And, of course, you do not want to give us the 
name of the peddler that first got you into it, do you ? 

Mr. . The name of the fellow? From the beginning? It 

was so long ago that I definitely think it would not be any 

Senator Wiley. Of course, you would not even want to tell us who 
it was that just recently gave you that? 

Mr. . No, sir. From the beginning of this investigation I 

made myself clear, I thought, that I would be willing to help 

The Chairman. In other words, you have told us from the begin- 
ning that 3^ou would help us in describing how you became ad- 
dicted 

Mr. . That is right. 

The Chairman (continuing). But that you could not give the 
names of other people ? 

Mr. . Of other people, yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And of the peddler, either. 

Mr. . That is right. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 367 

Senator Wiley. That was my question, that you have, as everyone 
else has, for some reason, apparently like this Mafia situation, are 
afraid to tell the name of the peddler, or for other reasons. 

Mr. . I do not think that the peddlers are anyone who told 

on me. I think it is the cleverness of the police, or the officers of the 
law, that caught me. 

The Chairman. But you did say, along the lines that Senator Wiley 
is asking you, that the reason you would not give all the information 
as to the source of the supply, is that you wanted to live? 

Mr. . That is right, sir, like everyone else. 

The Chairman. And you were afraid if you gave it that you would 
not live? 

Mr. . At the time you were merely speaking of the little 

fellows. 

The Chairman. That is right. 

Mr. . You made yourself clear. All the little fellows are 

incarcerated. 

The Chairman. That is right. Can you give us any information 
about the bigger fellows ? 

Mr. . I don't know. 

The Chairman. But you did say that you were actually afraid of 
jour life. 

Senator Wiley. In other words, let us make ourselves clear. That 
while you would advise all the youngsters of America never to get 
into this mixup that you got into, and you have fallen off the wagon 
two or three times after cure, that because of fear, if you were to 
name the name of the peddler, for fear of your life you are not willing 
to give us the name of the guy who last gave you the dope that resulted 
in sending you to prison this last time ? In other words, you do not 
want to give the name of the peddler, do you ? 

(No response.) 

The Chairman. You have expressed yourself on that? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And do you still stand by that? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Senator Wiley. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Thank you. 

Mr. . Thank you.* 

The Chairman. Now, the next witness also is an inmate, and the 
same conditions will be observed. 

Will you raise your right hand, please. In the presence of Almighty 
God, do you swear that the testimony you give shall be the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 

Mr. , I do. 



TESTIMONY OF 



The Chairman. From which city do you come? 

Mr. . New York City. 

The Chairman. New York City. And where have you been living ? 

Mr. ■ — . Washington, D. C. 

The Chairman. And for how long have you been living in this 
city? 



368 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. . Ten years. 

The Chairman. Ten years. The last past ? 

Mr. . The past 10 years. 

The Chairman. The past 10 years. Thank yon. Now, conld I ask 
you just to sit up a little closer and talk into the mikes and listen to 
the questions that are asked, and speak distinctly, and we will be 
obliged to you. 

Mr. Moser ? 

Mr. MosER. You have been living in Washington for 10 years, you 
say, and you are now in prison, are you not ? 

Mr. . Yes ; I am. 

Mr. MosER. What is the charge against you ? 

Mr. . Grand larceny. 

Mr. MosER. Grand larceny. How long ago did you go to prison ? 

Mr. . May lY, 1951. 

Mr. MosER. And up to that date you were free ? 

Mr. MosER. Do you find that the use of marijuana is quite com- 
mon among musicians ? 

Mr. . I would not stereotype it in any direct form among 

musicians. It is prevalent among different types of people. I would 
not say that it is just prevalent among musicians. 

Mr. MosER. How recently were you able to get marijuana in Wash- 
ington ? 

Mr. . Up to the time I was arrested. 

Mr. MosER. You were using it right up to then. Was it hard to 
get then ? 

Mr. . No. It was easy, as I said before. 

Mr. MosER. Then at the time you started, back 4 or 5 years ago, 
it was easy, and it was still easy as far as you know up until May ? 

Mr. — — — . Yes, I would say it was. 

Mr. MosER. Now, you switched to heroin at some stage, did you 
not? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How long ago was that ? 

Mr. . That was about 2 years ago. 

Mr. MosER. Did you start by sniffing? 

Mr. . That is the first way that you start and then you grad- 
uate into another form. 

Mr. Moser. And how long did you sniff? 

Mr. . I would say about 6 months before I started 

Mr. Moser. The main line? 

Mr. . Up to that date I was free. 

Mr. Moser. And how old are you ? 

Mr. . 24. 

Mr. Moser. When did you start using narcotics first ? 

Mr. . Four or 5 years ago. 

Mr. Moser. And was that marijuana? 

Mr. . I started on marijuana. 

Mr. MosER. So you were about 19 years old when you started on 
marijuana? 

Mr. . Nineteen or 20. 

Mr. MosER. And you were living in Washington at that time? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 369 

Mr. MosER. Were you working here ? 

Mr. . Yes, I was. 

Mr. MosER. Were many people that you knew using marijuana? 

Mr. . The great majority of them were. 

Mr. JNIosER. A large number. And was it hard to get here in Wash- 
ington ? 

Mr. . JSTo. It was very easy to obtain. 

Mr. MosER. Where did you get it? From peddlers on the street? 

Mr. . There were different sources of connection. There were 

peddlers on the street and also among the musicians, it was easy to 
obtain it from them. 

Mr. MosER. You are a musician ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What instrument did you play ? 

^Ir. . Trumpet. 

Mr. MosER. And how long had you been a musician ? 

Mr. . Five or seven years. 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosEs. And how long after you first started were you hooked ? 

Mr. . I would say it doesn't take long. About a month, 

and then you are hooked. 

Mr. MosER. And once you are hooked you are sick unless you have 
it ; is that right ? 

Mr. . You find it liard to leave it alone. 

Mr. MosER. Now, heroin you also obtained here in Washington. 
Was that hard to obtain? 

Mr. . No. That is not hard to obtain at all in this town. 

Mr. MosER. How much does it cost ? 

Mr. . I would say that you could get a capsule of herom for 

about $2. 

Mr. MosER. $2, up until about May. That was the last contact you 
had with it ? 

Mr. . That was the last contact. 

Mr. MosER. Where did you buy it in Washington ? 

Mr. . There are so many sources of supply that it is hard 

just to put it on one source. It is all over the city. 

Mr. MosER. It is not centralized in any particular place? 

Mr. . No, I would not say that it is centralized. I would 

say any downtown area, or usually up in different neighborhoods, you 
can obtain it very easily. Anybody can go up there and obtain it. 

Mr. MosER. You get it from peddlers on the street? 

Mr. . Mostly. They hawk their wares on the street. 

Mr. MosER. How do you find the peddler when you want it ? 

Mr. . They are usually around. They usually more or less 

see you first and then they come up to you and then you make your 
buy. 

Mr. MosER. They know you are an addict by looking at you ; is that 

it? 

Mr. . I would not say that, no. I guess it is like anything else. 

The underworld is something that is a grapevine and they usually 
know who it is all right to sell it to and who it is not.^ 

Mr. MosER. Were there any places that you could go in Washington, 
establishments or rooms, where you could go and get heroin and use 
it there ? 



370 ORGANIZED CRIM^ IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. . Not to my knowledge, there wasn't. I imagine that 

there are some. But I never did — myself I never obtained it in that 
way. 

Mr. MosER. But did you know other people who did? 

Mr. . Yes, I would say I did. 

Mr. MosER. And I asked you if there were places where you could 
go and use it on the premises. Were there places where you could 
go and buy it and take it away ? 

Mr. . To my knowledge, like I said before, no, I never 

made 

Mr. MosER. You always bought it from peddlers on the street; i& 
that right? 

Mr. . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. And they were easy to find. How much of a habit did 
you get when it reached its peak ? 

Mr. . I would say I was using about $20 to $25 a day. 

Mr. MosER. $20 to $25 a day ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And you did not make that much as a trumpet player^ 
I assume ? 

Mr. . No. 

Mr. MosER. So you had to go to other means to get it. Would you 
mind telling us what you did. You are already in for grand larceny; 
so you do not have to worry about that. But what else did you do? 

Mr. . I pawned stolen goods to receive the money so that I 

could take care of my habit. 

Mr. MosER. Did you steal the goods yourself? 

Mr. . No. 

Mr. MosER. Where did you get them? Buy them? 

Mr. . From another person who was addicted to drugs, too, 

and he would go any place where he could steal something and I would 
pawn it. 

Mr. MosER. Shoplifting? 

Mr. ■ — •. I would say it was. 

Mr. MosER. You call it boosting? 

Mr. . I believe that is what you would call it. 

Mr. MosER. And he would steal the merchandise and you would 
pawn it ; is that correct ? 

Mr. . I would pawn it. 

Mr. MosER. And did you use any other means of getting money? 

Mr. . No. It was the only means at that time. 

Mr. MosER. Tliis was in Washington? 

Mr. . This was in Washington. 

Mr. MosER. Is that what you are in for now ? 

Mr. . That is the charge I am in for now. 

Mr. MosER. I see. Did you use narcotics in any city besides Wash- 
ington ? 

Mr. . I was playing with a band in Chicago and I used some 

in Chicago, too. 

Mr. MosER. Was it hard to get there ? 

Mr. . It was a little harder to get there, I believe, than it is 

in Washington. 

Mr. MosER. Were you on the habit while you were there ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 371 

Mr. -. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How much did it cost there? 

Mr. . In any big city like that it is cheaper, I imagine — most 

of the wholesalers up there get it, and they can sell it cheaper. But 
here it is a little harder to obtain as far as large quantities are con- 
cerned. 

Mr. MosER. So that you would only buy a cap at a time here; is that 
right? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Whereas in Chicago you can get larger quantities at a 
time? 

Mr. . Yes, you can get larger quantities, and it is a little 

cheaper. 

Mr. MosER. And you found that when you were on the habit and 
you needed the drugs, can you tell us the effect upon your inhibitions 
from the point of view of committing crime, and so forth, to get 
money ? 

Mr. . As far as inhibitions are concerned, you have no in- 
hibitions. It seems to take away your will power, besides attacking 
your central nervous system and messing you up completely. Some 
people it affects in different ways. 

Mr. MosER. But you found that it drove you to commit crimes to 
get money; is that right? 

Mr. — ^- . Yes, I would say it would. 

Mr. MosER. Would you say that you would have done anything to 
get money ? 

Mr. . No, I would not say that I would have done anything 

to get money, but I would say that what I did do it was under the 
influence of that narcotic. 

Mr. MosER. Was it because you were under the influence or because 
you needed the money ? 

Mr. . I would say it w^as because I was under the influence 

of the narcotic at the time. 

]\lr. MosER. But you needed the money, too ? 

Mr. . Well, I needed the money 

]\Ir. MosER. To buy the drugs. 

Mr. . I needed the money to obtain the narcotics. 

Mr. MosER. You could not get $20 a day blowing a trumpet, so you 
had to get it some other way ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. I see. That is all I want to ask. 

The Chairman. Senator Wiley ? 

Senator Wiley. How old did you say you were ? 

Mr. . Twenty- four. 

Senator Wiley. And you have been using this stuff for 4 or 5 
years ? 

Mr. . No, Senator. I used it only for 2 years. 

Senator Wiley. The result is that the use of it has brought you to 
prison, has it not ? 

Mr. . That is correct. Senator. 

Senator Wiley. You are not married, are you ? 

Mr. . No, sir. 



372 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIVIIVIERCE 

Senator Wiley. How long is it since you have had any of the drug ? 

Mr. . Just before I came to my incarceration, I had some. 

Senator Wiley. You have been there how long ? 

Mr. . A month and 9 days, or something like that, May 17. 

Senator Wiley. You have not had any since you have been incarcer- 
ated, have you ? 

Mr. . No. 

Senator Wiley. Do you think you have the will to stop it ? 

Mr. . I would say that if anybody — I would say "Yes," be- 
cause it only leads to one place, and it is a curse. There should be 
some way that it can be taken care of. I would say that it should be. 

Senator Wiley. If you had your life to start all over again and 
you had the knowledge you have now, would you even dare to touch 
the stuff? 

Mr. . No, I don't think I would touch it again. I think this 

has taught me a lesson that everybody should listen to. 

Senator Wiley. What have you got to say to those people that are 
not being sought out by these peddlers? What do you have to say 
to all those people in America ? 

Mr. . I would say this much, that there should be hospitals 

set up with proper facilities for drug addiction, so that addicts can 
go there of their own volition without police persecution, and give 
them a time like 6 months or something, and after that 6 months if 
they do come out on the street again, there should be a law provided 
for that any internal possession, anybody with internal possession 
or anything, found with any drugs, will then be given a prison sen- 
tence. But the way it stands now it doesn't seem to do any good just 
to give them the cure and send them back out on the street again, 
because the environment is still there. You could get rid of the 
environment by having all of the addicts at one time go in of their 
own volition, and then if they persist in wanting to use the drugs^ 
they should be imprisoned. 

Senator Wiley. If I get your last statement right, you feel that 
for those that have already fallen, there is this obligation on the part 
of society to look after them. But my main consideration is right here 
on this point. The main job of society is to make it impossible, as 
far as it is humanly possible, to make it impossible that these ped- 
dlers — and you called them wholesalers — to make it impossible for 
them to ruin the lives of others, like yourself. That is what I want to 
get the reaction on. You say they should not be permitted to get it 
and all this and that. But I take it if I asked you who that peddler 
was that sold you that last dope, the name of the last one, the name 
of the individual in Washington who gave you the dope or who sold 
it to you, you would not even tell me. 

Mr. . Senator, that is not the point. The point that I was 

trying to put across to you is the fact that if all the addicts were 
cured there would not be any on the street because they would not be 
out there. All the addicts would be cured. Then if they did go out 
there they would get in prison. 

Senator Wiley. You did not answer my question. To me this is 
the point. Why is there any hesitancy on the part of you youngsters 
whose lives have been ruined, up to date at least, unless something like 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 373 

a miracle interferes, who continue to be ruined the way you have 
indicated — why is it that you hesitate, as in the Mafia they hesitate, 
to tell the names of those who commit murder? Why do you hesi- 
tate to give us the names and the places where this poison is gotten 
in this fair city of Washington? 

Mr. . You are absolutely right, Senator. I think that any 

drug seller that is caught should have a heavy sentence imposed on 
him. 

Senator Wiley. What is the name of the last guy that sold you 
that stuff? 

Mr. . Well, Senator, to tell you the honest truth, I don't 

remember. 

Senator Wiley. All right. Wliat is the last place you went in 
Washington to get that stuff ? 

Mr. . I don't even remember that, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Now, let us not call it the last place. Can you 
remember within 6 months before you came to jail any place in 
Washington, or any peddler's name, where you got that stuff ? 

Mr. . No, I cannot. I cannot remember a thing. 

Senator Wiley. No. Well, you have a pretty good memory other- 
wise. Is it because you fear death ? 

Mr. . No, I would not say that, either, Senator. 

Senator Wiley. Then what do you fear ? 

]Mr. . That is a good point. 

Senator Wiley. Yes, that is a good point. We examined man after 
man, sir, in Lexington, with the understanding that they would not — 
one question they woiJd not answer was where they got it or who 
they got it from. One thing I want to ask you is for the millions of 
American youths whom you can save by helping us get at these — 
well, racketeers is a good name for them — murderers. The ruination 
of this young life of our country we have to stop. You are challenged 
to show us the way and the direction. And the minute we can get 
at these guys who are doing this stuff, we could get somewhere. 

Mr. — . Then there would only be more of them come springing 

up. 

Senator Wiley. I have heard that argument about weeds in the 
garden, sir. But we have found ways of getting rid of weeds, and 
when you get human derelicts, such as we have seen, as a result of the 
activity of other humans, we want to get those other humans who make 
you derelicts. And that is a challenge to you, to cooperate with your 
Government, not with me, but with your Government, to the end that 
w^e can find a solution to this problem. 

The Chairman. Very well. That concludes the examination. 

Thank you. 

Now, the next witness is an inmate from the State of Maryland and 
the same conditions as to nontelevising will apply. 

In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear that the testimony 
you give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ? 

Miss . I do. 

The Chairman. Very well. 



374 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

TESTIMONY OP MISS 

The Chairman. Now, where do you live ? 

Miss . 808 George Street. 

The Chairman. You need not give your exact address. I meant 
the city. 

Miss . Baltimore, Md. 

The Chairman. Baltimore, Md. And for how long have you lived 
in Baltimore? 

Miss . All my life. 

The Chairman. All your life. How old are you ? 

Miss . Twenty years old. 

The Chairman. Twenty. Are you married ? 

Miss . No, sir. 

The Chairman. With whom did you live ? 

Miss . My mother and father. 

The Chairman. Any sisters and brothers? 

Miss . Brothers and sisters. 

The Chairman. How many ? 

Miss . I have three sisters and two brothers. 

The Chairman. Three sisters and two brothers. What kind of 
work did you do? 

Miss . I was working at a hotel. 

The Chairman. At a hotel. And any other work besides that ? 

Miss . Waitress work at the hospital. 

The Chairman. Waitress work at the hospital. Did you work also 
as a nurse's aide? 

Miss . No, sir. 

The Chairman. Doing some work around the hospital besides 
waiting ? 

Miss . No, sir. 

The Chairman. You did waiting. And how long did you work in 
the hospital ? 

Miss . Six months. 

The Chairman. Six months. Did you work at other restaurants in 
and around Baltimore besides the hospital ? 

Miss . No, sir. 

The Chairman. Have you been using any drugs at any time, smok- 
ing reefers ? 

Miss . When I was working? 

The Chairman. No. At any time. 

Miss. . Yes. 

The Chairman. You were. How old were you when you began ? 

Miss . About thirteen. 

The Chairman. Thirteen. And how did you get it ? 

Miss . How did I get it ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Miss . Well, I went and bought it from different people. 

The Chairman. You bought it from different people. On the 
streets or in stores? 

Miss . On the street. 

The Chairman. And how much did you pay for it? 

Miss . Fifty cents. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 375 

The Chairmajst. Fifty cents a stick? 

Miss . That is right. 

The Chairman. Did you have any trouble getting it? 

Miss . Sometimes. 

The Chairman. And what did you do then when you had trouble 
getting it and wanted it? 

Miss . I didn't buy it then. 

The Chairman. You did not buy it then. Did you keep on looking ? 

Miss . No, sir. 

The Chairm'an. Did you get some later on? 

Miss . Pardon ? 

The Chairman. Did you get some later on ? Did you find out some 
place where you could get it? 

Miss . Sometimes I would and sometimes I wouldn't. 

The Chairman. Now, did you use anything else besides reefers ? 

Miss . Heroin. 

The Chairman. Heroin. And how old were you when you started 
using heroin ? 

Miss . Nineteen. 

The Chairman. Nineteen. What caused you to start that? How 
did you come to begin that? 

Miss . I just picked it up on my own hook. 

The Chairman. You picked it up on your own hook. Did you 
know of others using it ? Did you talk to anybody else about it ? 

Miss . I knew people that used it, but not many people. 

The Chairman. Did you talk to anybody else about their using it ? 

Miss . No. 

The Chairman. You need not tell us what they said, but we just 
want to know whether you had any conversation with others about it. 

Miss . No. 

The Chairman. How did you use it? SnijfRng? Or did you use it 
in the veins ? 

Miss . In the vein. 

The Chairman. In the vein. How did you know how to use it? 

Miss . I have seen it done once, and I tried it. 

The Chairman. You saw it done once. And how many people 
were there when you saw it being done ? 

Miss . One person. 

The Chairman. One person. A man or woman ? 

Miss . A man. 

The Chairman. You saw a man shooting it himself? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. And then you, seeing how it was done, later did 
it yourself? 

Miss . That is right. 

The Chairman. How much did you use? 

Miss . A half a cap. 

The Chairman. A half a cap. Did you continue to use a half a 
cap, or -did you increase it? 

Miss . I increased it. 

The Chairman. Up to what did you increase it ? 

Miss . To a whole. 

The Chairman. To a whole. How much did you pay for it? 



376 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Miss . Three dollars. 

The Chairman. You bought it where? Not the exact place, but 
in M^hat city ? 

Miss . Baltimore. 

The Chaikman. In Baltimore. And was the price always the 
same ? 

Miss . That is right. 

The Chairman. Three dollars. Did you haA'e anj^ trouble get- 
ting it? 

Miss . Yes, sir, * 

The Chairman. Always? 

Miss . That is right. 

The Chairman. And where did you get it ? That is, on the street 
or in stores ? 

Miss . On the street. 

The Chairman. On the street. Did you always buy it from the 
same person or from diiferent persons? 

Miss . From different persons. 

The Chairman. Different people. Well, after jou. had been 
dealing with one person and you could not find that person any more, 
how would you know where to find it ? 

Miss . Say that again. 

The Chairman. If you had been dealing with one peddler and 
then he disappeared, or he was not around any more, how did you 
know how to get it from another one? 

Miss . I looked until I found somebody else that had it. 

Tlie Chairman. You looked until you found somebody else? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. But how did you know when you found some- 
body else ? 

Miss . I would ask them. 

The Chairman. You would ask them. And from how many dif- 
ferent people did you get it? 

Miss . Three. 

The Chairman. Three. And all in the same neighborhood in 
Baltimore? Were they all in the same neighborhood? 

Miss . No, sir. 

The Chairman. Different neighborhoods. Was the price always 
the same as far as you knew in talking to others ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now I want to ask you some questions in regard 
to your attending som.e parties. You know what I mean. How 
mnnv persons were at the parties where you went? 

Miss . About twenty people. 

The Chairman. About twenty people. And what was the greatest 
number ? 

Miss . About thirty. 

The Chairman. And what kind of party was it? 

Miss . A heroin party. 

The Chairman. A heroin party. And were there different par- 
ties, heroin parties? 

Miss . No. 

The Chairman. How many did you go to ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 377 

Miss . I went to parties. 

The Chairman. We are talking about heroin parties. 

Miss . I only went to one. 

The Chairman. To one. But you say sometimes there were twenty. 
How often would you say that you had been to the ones with twenty ? 

Miss . I only went one time. 

The Chairman. And how about the time with thirty? 

Miss . About the same time. 

The Chairman. And were they all using it, or some using it, or 
what? 

Miss . Some just sniffed. 

The Chairman. Some sniffed? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. And what did the others do ? 

Miss . Shoot. 

The Chairman. Shoot. Put it in the vein ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chahuvian. How long would the party go on ? 

Miss . Until around three 'oclock. 

The Chairman. Up until three? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. In the morning? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. What would they do in between times ? 

Miss . Just sit down and listen to music. 

The Chairman. Sit down and listen to music ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. And then were there times when they took more 
than one shot, anybody there ? 

Miss . Probably during the party they would do it. 

The Chairman. You will have to talk a little louder. 

Miss . Probably during the party they would do it. 

The Chairman. Probably during the party they would do it. How 
often ? 

Miss . I don't know. 

The Chairman. I just want to remind you of the case of one boy, 
or one young man. Do you remember one boy that was using about 
four at a time ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. Can you tell us about it ? 

Miss . You see, you can use as many as you want. 

The Chairman. Yes. But I want you to tell us how many he used. 

Miss . He used four. 

The Chairman. Four at a time. ^ And then did he repeat this dur- 
ing the night ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. How many times ? 

Miss . I do not know how many times. 

The Chairman. About ? 

Miss . About three. 

The Chairman. Three. So during the course of the night, he used 
twelve, would you say? 

Miss — . Yes, he could have used them. 



378 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Now, how long were you using the quantity at $3"' 
apiece ? 

Miss . Two months. 

The Chairman. Two months. And what happened then ? 

Miss . What do you mean ? 

The Chairman. Did you get arrested? 

Miss -. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. For what ? 

Miss . For narcotics and larceny. 

The Chairman. For narcotics and larceny. What other city did 
you go to ? 

Miss . No other city. 

The Chairman. Wliat? 

Miss ■ — . No other city. 

The Chairman. No other city. Have you ever been to Washington f 

Miss . Yes, I have been there. 

The Chairman. Did you ever buy it here ? 

Miss . No. 

The Chairman. Did anybody else buy it here for you ? 

Miss . No. 

The Chairman. But you have visited over here ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. But you did not yourself buy it in Washington? 

Miss . When I visited here, I visited my people. 

The Chairman. You visited your people. Now, at the time when 
you went to the parties in Baltimore, were there other people there- 
besides addicts? 

Miss . No. 

The Chairman. There were not ? 

Miss . No. 

The Chairman. In other words, the party was only for addicts ? 

Miss . Yes. 

The Chairman. How would you know that the party was going to 
take place ? 

Miss . How would I know ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Miss . The same way if somebody invites you to a party^ 

They would give you an invitation, wouldn't they ? 

The Chairman. You got an invitation ? 

Miss . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you at one time tell us that at that party there was^ 
a big man there ? 

Miss . The big man usually gave the party. 

Mr. MosER. The big man usually gave the party ? 

Miss . I say, if the big man gave the party, he would have tO" 

be there. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever attend one where the big man was there? 

Miss . No. 

Mr. MosER. You just heard about that? 

Miss . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. The big man is a man who is selling drugs on a big basis ;; 
is that right? 
Miss . Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 379 

The Chairman. Would you think it a good thing if everybody 
stayed away from it? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Why? 

Miss . Because it is no ^ood. 

The Chairman. It is no good. Now, tell us why you say it is no 
good, from your own experience. 

Miss . In my experience, it makes me lose my respect. 

The Chaiknian. Keep your voice up. It makes you lose your- 

Miss . Respect. And it just ruins your body, and everything. 

The Chairman. It ruins your body, and everything. Just what 
reactions did you have that caused you to say that ? 

Miss . When you haven't got it, you feel bad. 

The Chairman. You say when you haven't got it, you feel bad ? 

Miss . That is right. 

The Chairman. And did you do anything to get the money with 
which to buy it? 

Miss . No. 

The Chairman. You didn't commit any crimes ? 

Miss . No. 

The Chairman. Can you tell us any other reasons why you think it 
would be good if everybody stayed off, particularly the young people? 

Miss . Because it is no good for nobody. 

The Chairman. No good for nobody. Now, at the party that you 
attended, what were the ages of the people there? You said at one 
time there were 20, and then over 30. 

Miss . In their thirties. 

The Chairman. Thirties. Mostly people around that age. Any 
as young as you ? 

Miss ■ — . I was the youngest. 

The Chairman. You were the youngest. Were they all using it in 
the veins, or were som^ of them sniffing it ? 

Miss . Just sniffing and using it in the veins. 

The Chairman. You will have to talk a little louder. It was 
sniffing and using it in the veins ? 

Miss . Sniffing and using it in the veins. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Senator Wiley ? 

Senator Wiley. Did you say you attended high school ? 

Miss — ■ . No ; I didn't. 

Senator Wiley. You did not attend any school whatever? 

Miss . Yes ; I have. 

Senator Wiley. While you were in school, were they using mari- 
huana ? 

Miss . No. 

Senator Wiley. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. Very well. That will do. Thank you. 

Raise your right hand, please. 

In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear that the testimony 
you give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ? 

Ml-. . I do. 



380 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

TESTIMONY OF 

The Chairman. Could I ask you just to make yourself comfortable 
there, and listen to the questions and talk into the mike? You are 
sitting just in the right position. And will you keep your voice up 
for the short time that you are on the stand ? 

Mr. . I will try to. 

The Chaikman. From what city do you come ? 

Mr. . New York City. 

The Chairman. New York City. And where have you been living 
recently ? 

Mr. . In New York City. 

The Chairman. Have you lived in any other cities ? 

Mr. . No. 

The Chairman. All right. How old are you ? 

Mr. . Fifty-seven. 

The Chairman. Fifty-seven. 

Mr. Moser, will you continue, please? 

Mr. MosER. What are you in for ? 

Mr. . For narcotics. 

Mr. MosER. Narcotics violation here in Washington ? 

Mr. . Washington ; yes. 

The Chairman. In Washington? 

Mr. . I was here 20 minutes. 

Mr. Moser. You were in Washington 20 minutes before they picked 
you up? 

Mr. — . Yes. 

Mr, MosER. That was fast work. 

Senator Wiley. What were you coming for ? 

Mr. . I was going to Virginia. I was going to take a cure at 

Staunton. 

Mr. MosER. We have had a lot of young people who are addicts, 
but you are an old-timer. 

Mr. . Yes. When I first went on it, you could go in a drug 

store and buy it. 

Mr. MosER. You could buy it in a drug store ? 

Mr. . Sixty-five cents, and 80 cents. 

Mr, MosER. How long have you been addicted? 

Mr. . Thirty-eight years. 

Mr. MosER. For 38 years you have been on the habit? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Your business has been rather varied, as I understand 
it? 

Mr. . Yes, sir, 

Mr. MosER. You were a bookmaker at one time ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And sold numbers ? 

Mr. . Yes, 

Mr. MosER. In New York City ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Do you know some of tlie people in the bookmaking 
and numbers business there ? 

Mr. -. I worked for Frank Erickson. 

Mr. MoSER. You worked for Frank Erickson ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 381 

Mr. . I would lay off to him. I would get so much play, and 

I would lay off to him when I got too much. 

Mr. MosER. You would lay off to him when you got too much. Do 
you know Frank Costello? 

Mr. . We ate at the same restaurant. 

Mr. MosER. You ate at the same restaurant. Is he associated with 
Erickson ? 

Mr. . I have seen them together. 

Mr. MosER. Did you know they did business together? 

Mr. . No. ■ / 

Mr. MosER. Tell us a little bit about the circumstances of a dope 
addict in the early days, when you first started in. Did you use opium 
at that time ? 

Mr. . I started smoking a pipe. 

Mr. MosER. You smoked opium ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And at what stage — — 

Mr. . In 1912 or 1914 the Harrison Act went in, and opium 

got scarce. 

Mr. MosER. It got scarce when the Harrison Act went in? 

Ml". . But heroin began to flow to the city very fast. 

Mr. MosER. It got in very fast in those days ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Did you see marihuana in those days ? 

Mr. . No ; I didn't see marihuana. 

Mr. MosER. But heroin started to flow in after the Harrison Act? 

Mr. . After the Harrison Act. 

Mr. MosER. And after the Harrison Act, where did you buy it ? 

Mr. . I bought it on the streets. 

Mr. MosER. From ])eddlers? 

Mr. . From peddlers. 

Mr. MosER. There was no place where you could go buy it? 

Mr. . The drug stores would not sell it, but you could go to 

a doctor and get a prescription. 

Mr. MosER. But that was a little hard to do ? 

Mr. . I never did it. But I knew plenty that did. 

Mr. MosER. Did you not have trouble getting it in those days? 

Mr. . No. ^ 

Mr. MosER. Did you get to know a lot of peddlers who carried it? 

Mr. . Yes.* 

Mr. MosER. How much did it cost ? 

Mr. . It varied, at different prices. Sometimes it would be 

as low as $15 an ounce; sometimes it went as high as $300 an ounce. 

Mr. MosER. From $15 to $300 an ounce? In New York City? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. That was back in 1914 or 1915 ? 

Mr. . No. When it was $300 an ounce, it was 1939 or 1940. 

Mr. MosER. In 1939 it had gone up to $300 an ounce ? 

Mr. . $300 an ounce. 

The Chairman. Won't you wait until the question is finished, 
please, and then answer it clearly and distinctly. 

Mr. . Yes. 

85277— 51— i)t. 14 25 



382 ORGAiNIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Because it is hard for the stenographer to take it 
from two people at one time. 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Back in 1915 you could buy an ounce of heroin for 
approximately ■ 

Mr. . $15. 

Mr. MosER. $15. And now you buy it for 

Mr. . $150 or $300. 

Mr. MosEE. $300. 

Mr. . According to percentages. 

Senator Wiley. How many shots would an ounce make ? 

Mr. ■ — . It is 480 grains to an ounce. You figure about a grain 

and a half or two grains to a hypodermic. 

Senator Wiley. A grain or two to a hypodermic ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Back in the old days were there any young people using 
it, as far as you know ? 

Mr. . No. I never heard of any like it is now. 

Mr. MosER. You have heard there are a lot of young people now? 

Mr. . In the old days, Italians controlled it — the Jewish 

people controlled it, and then they seemed to get out and the Italians 
took it over. Now it seems to be that the Puerto Ricans do it. 

Mr. MosER. Most of the peddlers are Puerto Ricans ? 

Mr. . Mostly now. 

Mr. MosER. There has been a change-over to that ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. Moser. And this increase on the part of young people is a new 
development ? 

Mr. . I think marijuana led to that. 

Senator Wiley. Would you say that if you bought an ounce, you 
bought that from a wholesaler, did you not ? 

Mr. — ■ . Yes ; a peddler. 

Senator Wiley. A peddler ? 

Mr. . Yes. He might be a fifth man, maybe. It might be 

the fifth man to get it when you get it off him. 

Mr. MosER. You do not know where he got it ? 

Mr. . No. 

Mr. MosER. So you think you were about the fifth man down the 
scale ? 

Mr. . I think I was about the sixth. 

Mr. MosER. I would like to come back to the subject of teen-agers 
which has alarmed a lot of people a great deal. 

Mr. . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. And that, as you say, is completely new, as far as you 
know ? 

Mr. . That is right. In the last 8 years or so. 

Mr. MosER. In the last 8 years. Has there been an increase in the 
last 1 or 2 years? 

Mr. '—. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And do you see these teen-agers using it yourself ? 

Mr. . Sure. 

Mr. MosER. Do you see them buying it from peddlers? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 383 

Mr. . You hear them talking about kids using it, and you see 

them going up and buying caps, doUar caps. 

Mr. MosER. And you can tell by their conversation ? 

Mr. . You can look at them and see that they are teen-agera 

Mr. MosER. Yes. And that is in very sharp increase, is it not? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Now, in New York City, where do you get narcotics? 

Mr. . Well, Harlem is a pretty popular place for it. 

Mr. MosER. That is the easiest place to get it ? 

Mr. . And downtown. Mott and Hester, down that way. 

Mr. MosER. Mott and Hester Streets ? 

Mr. . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. Any in Brooklyn ? 

Mr. . I haven't been over in Brooklyn in years. 

Mr. MosER. That is too far away ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. But in Mott and Hester Streets, do you find it easy 
to get? 

Mr. . It is easy to get. 

Mr. MosER. That is the Chinese section, is it not? 

Mr. . Italian and Chinese. 

Mr. MosER. It is near Chinatown ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And it is easy to get there ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. How much does it cost ? 

Mr. . What? How much? 

Mr. MosER. I should ask you, how do you buy it. In what form ? 

Mr. . When I came in here I had just about 2 ounces with 

me. I paid $150 an ounce. 

Mr. MosER. Two ounces for $150 an ounce. That is $300. 

Mr. . $300. 

Mr. MosER. How long would that last you ? 

Mv. . That would last me about 6 weeks or 8 weeks. 

Mr. MosER. Six weeks. So it is approximately $50 a week? 

Mr. . Yes, approximately. 

Mr. MosER. And you were on your way to have a cure ? 

Mr. . Yes ; I was going to Staunton. 

Mr. MosER. To a private — go ahead. Finish your answer. I am 
sorry. 

Mr. . I was going to Staunton, Va., a sanitarium there. 

Mr. MosER. To a private institution? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And how much do they charge a day ? 

Mr. . Tliey charge $47 a week. 

Mr. MosER. Forty-seven dollars a week. Does that include the 
medication ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And have you ever been there ? 

Mr. . No. I sent down to a friend of mine that lived in 

Virginia — he lives in Richmond — and he wrote me a letter back and 
he told me the conditions, 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off, $47 a week. 

Mr. MosER. I see. And when did you last see Frank Erickson ? 



384 ORGAiNIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. . About 2 years ago. 

Mr. MosER. Not since then? 

Mr. . I seen him on the Kef auver investigation when he was 

in New York. 

Mr. MosER. Did you have any conversation with him at all? 

Mr. . No. 

Mr. MosER. Did you get any money from him ? 

Mr. . Yes. Once I borrowed $100 off him about 2 years ago 

when I was broke. 

Mr. MosER, I see. What do you do for work when you need money ? 
What do you work at? 

Mr, . I w^as taking bets on horses. 

Mr. MosER. That was your source of income ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Bookmaking? 

Mr. . Bookmaking. 

Mr. MosER. Do you have any idea where the heroin comes from 
when it comes into the country? 

Mr. . I think most of it is coming from Italy, now, and South 

America, the Argentine. 

Mr. MosER. Is that from what people have told you ? 

Mr. . That is only hearsay. 

Mr. MosER. You don't actually know? 

Mr. . On the water front, through the water front, I think 

a lot of it is coming in. 

Mr. MosER. Have you ever talked to anybody on the water front? 

Mr. . One time there was a fellow who wanted to make a 

bargain with me to take off a kilo at a time, to give me $300. 

Mr. MosER. He wanted to make a bargain w ith you to take a kilo at 
a time off a ship ? 

Mr. . For $300. 

Mr. MosER. $300 a kilo? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. He was going to pay you that amount to bring it off the 
ship ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And how were you going to get on the ship ? 

Mr. . I don't know. I told him I couldn't do that, anyway, 

because I am too well known. I am a drug addict, and I am known. 

Mr. MosER. Was it his idea that you would act like a longshoreman 
or something ? 

Mr. . To get on there as a longshoreman and come off with it. 

Mr. MosER. And he was going to give you $300 just to bring it off 
the ship? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And did he tell you where it was on the ship ? 

Mr. . He didn't tell me, no; because I told him I wouldn't 

do it. 

Mr. MosER. I see. He did not tell you the details of this plan? 

Mr. . No. 

Mr. MosER. Where was that? 

Mr. . Over in Brooklyn, the ship was. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



385 



Mr. MosER. 

Mr. 

Mr. MosER. 

Mr. . 

Mr. MosER. 

Mr. 

York. 

Mr. MosER 
peddler or 

Mr. 

Mr. MosER. Prospi^ 



In Brooklyn? 

In Brooklyn, yes. 

How long ago was that? 

That was abont 4 years ago. 

So you did get to Brooklyn that once, anyway? 

No, I didn't go over there. He told me this in New 

Now, do you know who he was, whether he was a 
what ^ What was his connection with this importation? 
His name was Prospi, they called him. 



Mr. . Yes, an Italian. 

Mr. MosER. An Italian? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. And did you know of him as a peddler? 

Mr. . No, I never knew him as a peddler. 

Mr. MosER. What did you know about him? 

Mr. . I knew^ he worked as a bartender downtown one time. 

Downtown ? 

At Pearl Street. That is near Mott and Hester. 

And he told you to go aboard a ship and get it? 

Yes. For each kilo I would take off, he would give 

How many kilos did he say there were ? 
He didn't say. 
Mr. MosER. Did you get the impression that there were several? 



Mr. MosER. 

Mr. . 

Mr. MosER. 

Mr. , 

me $300. 
Mr. MosER. 
Mr. . 



Yes. 

And have you ever seen a kilo ? 

No. I know it is 32 ounces. 

Thirty-two ounces? 

Yes. 
Mr. MosER. You do not know how it is packaged ? 

Mr. . Cans, I should think. 

Mr. MosER. When you bought it, in what form was it ? 

It was in tissue-paper bags. 

Little envelopes? 

Envelopes, yes. 
Mr. MosER. Tissue-paper envelopes? 

Mr. . Envelopes. 

Mr. MosER. You never bought it in capsules? 

Mr. . Yes, I did, when I didn't have the money to buy it 

Mr. MosER. When you had to buy small quantities, you would get 



Mr. 

Mr. MosER. 

Mr. . 

Mr. MosER. 
Mr. , 



Mr. 

Mr. MosER 
Mr. 



MoSER, 

capsules ? 

Mr. 

Mr. MosER. 
Mr. 



Yes. 

And they were what? About $1.50 apiece? 
Sixty-five cents, seventy-five cents, $1, and $1.25, all 
prices, according to the percentage of the stuff. 

Mr. MosER, Would you like to tell us something about — excuse me. 
I will cliange that question. Did you ever meet Irving Sherman? 

Mr. . I knew him. He had a saloon on Seventh Avenue be- 
tween Forty-eighth and Forty-ninth. I think it was the Arizona or 
the Oklahoma. 



386 ORGAiNIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. How long ago was that? 

Mr. , During the war, the last World War. 

Mr. MosER. Did he run the saloon, or tend bar, or what? 

Mr. . He was the owner, as I understood. 

Mr. MosER. He was the owner? 

Mr. . Yes. But it was closed. It was closed during the war 

for some violation of the ABC law. 

Mr. MosER. It was closed because of the ABC regulation? 

Mr. . Sailors would go in there and 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever frequent that bar yourself ? 

Mr. . Yes, I went in there. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever see any narcotic peddlers there? 

Mr. . No. 

Mr. MosER. No sign of narcotics at all ? 

Mr. . No. 

Mr. MosER. Now, you have been in this game for a good many years, 
and I suppose you figure you will probably never be out of it. Is 
there anything you could suggest to this committee with regard to the 
solution of the problem as far as the young people are concerned ? 

Mr. . I think it should be a very easy thing to stop. 

Mr. MosER. How would you stop it ? 

Mr. . Protect the water fronts ; protect the borders, and the 

air lines ; search every ship that comes into the docks. 

Mr. MosER. Would you search all the longshoremen ? 

Mr. . Everybody. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think the sailors and the longshoremen bring 
it in? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. You heard talk to that effect ? 

Mr. . Certainly, sure. 

Mr. MosER. Is there quite a general understanding that that is the 
way it comes in ? 

Mr. . There might be a lot coming in by mail now, by air 

lines. 

Mr. MosER. By air lines ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. But you do not know anything: about that? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. But you think it could be stopped ? 

Mr. . Sure, it could be. 

Mr. MosER. And if it were stopped so that they could not do it, then 
what would they do ? 

Mr. . There is no heroin allowed to be made in this country. 

Mr. MosER. That is right. 

Mr. . So it could be stopped if we protected the water front. 

Mr. MosER. But an old-timer like you would want to get it some- 
where ; what would you do ? 

Mr. . If I couldn't get it, I wouldn't use it. 

Mr. MosER. If you couldn't get it, you would be off? 

Mr. . That is right. 

Mr. INIosER. The only reason you could get it is because it becomes 
available to you ; is that right ? 



0RGA3S*IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 387 

Mr. . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. And if you did not see it, you could not go back to it? 

Mr. . If I could not see it, I could not use it. 

Mr. MosER. So if the Government would stop the importation, you 
think that would be the best solution ? 

Mr. . Certainly. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think it would be possible to get young people 
to get off by educating them as to the dangers of it, and what it does 
to you, and so forth ? 

Mr. . Education ought to be a good help to them. 

Mr. MosER. That would help ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. INIosER. But the principal thing is to stop it from coming into 
the country? 

Mr. . Yes ; that is the principal thing. 

Mr. MosER. Now, one thing that we want to find something about 
is who the people are who bring it in and how they distribute it when 
they get it here. Do you know anything about that? 

Mr. — . You see, I ain't that far up. 

Mr. MosER. You are not that far up in the scale ? 

Mr. . '^o. 

Mr. MosER. You know the people you get it from ? 

Mr. . Yes ; I know the people that I go to. But they may be 

the fifth man down or the sixth man down. 

Mr. MosER. But you do not know where they get it ? 

Mr. . Xo. I have no idea where they get it. 

Mr. MosER. Do they ever deliver it to you in an surreptitious way 
so that you will not know who they get it from ? 

Mr. . Sometimes you will go for it and they will take your 

money and they will tell you to go to a certain place, a restaurant 
or a saloon, and put your hand up under a sink, or something like 
that, and it will be there. 

Mr. MosEE. But you do not know how it got there ? 

Mr. ■ . No. 

Mr. MosER. Do you think the people in the saloon know that it is 
there ? 

Mr. . No. 

Mr. MosER. You think it was just slipped there ? 

Mr. . It was just slipped there. 

Mr. MosER. In other words, they are clever about how they deliver 
it to you so that they will not get caught ? 

Mr. . That is right. ' 

Mr. jMoser. But you do not know where they get it, or you do not 
know who puts it there ; is that right ? 

Mr. ■ . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. All you know is the man who tells you where you can 
go to get this ; is that right ? 

Mr. . That is right. 

Mr. MosER. He takes your money first ? 

Mr. . He takes your money first. 

Mr. MosER. Have you ever had anybody take your money and 
beat it ? 



388 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. . I have had that happen a couple of times, too. 

Mr. MosER. But not often ? 

Mr. . No, not much. 

Mr. MosER. Did you ever hear of a hot shot ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. Do you know of anybody that has ever been killed by 
a hot shot? 

Mr. , I have heard of people, but I don't know how true it is^ 

by hearsay, 

Mr. MosER. But you never knew of any ? 

Mr. ■ . No. 

Mr. MosER. Now, you have used it for years. What is the con- 
dition of your veins and arms, and so forth ? 

You have scars all over your arms, have you not ? 

Mr. . And legs, too. 

Mr. MosER. And legs, too. And are all those veins collapsed? 

Mr. -. Yes. 

Mr. MosER. What is the effect? Can the blood circulate in your 
arms? 

Mr. . Yes, the blood can circulate. 

Mr, MosER. Those veins are collapsed all over your arms, are they ? 

Mr. . Yes, 

Mr, MosER, And your legs? 

Mr. : Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. And all your arms and legs from top to bottom are 
scarred like that ? 

Mr. . Yes, sir. 

Mr. MosER. Just from collapsing the veins because you used them 
too much ? 

Mr. . Yes. 

Mr. MosER. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Very well. Senator. 

Senator Wiley I have no questions. 

The Chairman. That is all. 

Gaetano Martino. 

I might announce that this witness is not under the same condi- 
tions as the others, and therefore television can proceed and pictures 
may be taken. 

Mr. Martino in the presence of Almighty God, do you swear that 
the testimony you give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
butthetrutli? 

Mr. Martino. I do, 

TESTIMONY OF GAETANO MAETINO, BROOKLYN, N. Y. 

The Chairman. Be seated. Now, your full name ? 

Mr. Martino. Gaetano Martino. 

The Chairman. And the first name is G-a-e-t-a-n-o? 

Mr. Martino. That is right. 

The Chairman. And the last name is spelled M-a-r-t-i-n-o? 

Mr. Martino. That is right. 

The Chairman. And what is your address ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 389 

Mr. Martino. 127 Bay Forty-ninth Street, Brooklyn, N. Y. 

The Chairman. In Brooklyn. 

Mifrht I ask at the outset if you will just keep on talking loud, right 
into the microphone, while you are on the stand, to the questions that 
Mr. Moser will ask you ? 

Mr. ISIartino. Yes. 

The Chairman, Thank you. 

Mr. Moser. 

Mr. ]\IosER. You live in Brooklyn ? 

Mr. Martino. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How old are you? 

Mr. Martino. Fifty. I am going to be 51 in September. 

Mr. Moser. You are fifty ? 

Mr. Martino. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. How many children do you have ? 

Mr. Martino. Nine. 

Mr. Moser. Do you work? 

Mr. Martino. Not at the present time. 

Mr. Moser. Not at the present time ? 

Mr. Martino. No. 

Mr. Moser. How long since you last worked ? 

Mr. Martino. Since 1948. 

Mr. Moser. 1948. You have not worked for 3 years ? 

Mr. Martino. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. ^YhRt did you work at then ? 

Mr. Martino. Before, I was a longshoreman. 

Mr. Moser. A longshoreman. Did you ever go to sea ? 

Mr. Martino. I did. 

Mr. Moser. You were a sailor ? 

Mr. Maritno. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. How long ago was that? 

Mr. Martino. That was from 1944 until 1946. 

Mr. IMoser. From 1944 until 1946 you were a sailor ? 

Mr. Martino. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. And when were you a longshoreman ? 

Mr. Martino. Before that. 

Mr. Moser. Who su])]3orts you now ? 

Mr. Martino. My kids. 

Mr. Moser. Your kids support you ? 

Mr. Martino. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. At the age of 50 ? 

Mr. Martino. That is right. 

Mr. Moser. Do you know Carlo Gambino ? 

Mr. Martino. No. 

Mr. Moser. You do not. Do you know Paul Gambino ? 

Mr. Martino. No. 

Mr. Moser. Do you know Lucky Luciano ? 

Mr. Martino. I do. 

Mr. Moser. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Martino. I met him in 1946, in Italy. 

Mr. Moser. You met him in 1946 in Italy ? 

Mr. Martino. Yes. 



390 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MosER. Is that the only time you have ever met him ? 

Mr. Martino. That is right. 

Mr. MosER. How much did you see of him there ? 

Mr. Martino. It was only a couple of times, that time. 

Mr. Moser. At that time it was a couple of times. Did you meet 
him at any other time ? 

Mr. Martino. When I went to Italy with my wife, in 1947. 

Mr. Moser. You went to Italy at a later time in 1947 ? 

Mr. Martino. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. You went with your wife ? 

Mr. Martino. Yes. 

Mr. Moser. Do you know John Romano ? 

Mr. Martino. No. 

Mr. Moser, You. have never heard of John Romano ? 

Mr. Martino. No. 

Mr. Moser. You are a longshoreman? 

Mr. Martino. I am, yes. 

Mr. Moser. And you never heard of the dock boss, John Romano? 

Mr. Martino. No ; I don't know him. I was a dock boss myself. 

Mr. Moser. You were. But you never heard of him ? 

Mr. Martino. No ; I never heard of him, 

Mr. Moser. Did you ever hear of