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INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME
IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-SECOXD CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO
S. Res. 202
(81st Congress)
AND
S. Res. 129
(82d Congress)
A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AN INVESTIGATION OF
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
PART 17
JULY 2, 9, 18; AUGUST 8, 9, 17, 1951
MARYLAND AND DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
Printed for the use of the Special Committee To Investigate
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
85277 WASHINGTON : 1951
OCT .16 1951
SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE ORGANIZED CRIME IN
I NTERSTATE COMMERCE
(Pursuant to S. Res. 202, 81st Cong.)
HERBERT R. O'CONOR, Maryland, Chairman
LESTER C. HUNT, Wyoming CHARLES W. TOBET, New Hampshire
ESTES KEFAUVER, Tennessee ALEXANDER WILEY, Wisconsin
Richard Moser, Chief Counsel
II
CONTENTS
Witnesses: "P*gt
Aaronson, Samuel, Baltimore, Md., accompanied by T. Barton Har-
rington and Bernard C. O'Sullivan, attorneys at law, Baltimore,
Md - 265
Adams, William L., Baltimore, Md., accompanied by Joseph H. A.
Rogan and J. Francis Ford, attorneys at law, Baltimore, Md 2
Aversa, Thomas Joseph, Baltimore, Md., accompanied by Bennett
Crain and Robert Hawkins, attorneys at law, Baltimore, Md 15,283
Bilson, Harry, Baltimore, Md., accompanied by Joseph G. Finnerty,
attorney at law, Baltimore, Md- 231
Downs, Sgt. Arthur T., Anne Arundel County, jVld., Police Depart-
ment 151
Fink, Julius, Baltimore, Md _ 33
Flannery, Sgt. Robert L., Anne Arundel County, Md., Police Depart-
ment 160
Goldberg, George, Baltimore, Md., accompanied by Paul Bennan,
Leo A. Rover, Sigmund Levin, and Clarence G. Pechacek, attor-
neys at law, Baltiomore, Md 97
Ing, Bilson, vice president, Howard Sports Daily, Inc., Baltimore, Md_ 65
King, Willis M. (Buzz), Baltimore, Md., accompanied by William
Greenfeld, attorney at law, Baltimore, Md 54, 102
Lewis, John William, Washington, D. C 360
Maddock, John Joseph, Laurel, Md., accompanied by T. Edward
O'Connell, attorney at law, Washington, D. C 55
Matusky, Leonard J., Baltimore, Md., accompanied by Morris T.
Siegel, attornev at law, Baltimore, Md 131,203,250
Nelson, Charles E., Ritchie, Md 317
Reitz, Edward William, Baltimore, Md., accompanied by Harry I.
Kaplan, attorney at law, Baltimore, Md 35
Rhudy, Charles S., Baltimore Sales Co., Baltimore, Md., accompanied
by John H. Dorsey, attorney at law, Washington, D. C 310
Roberts, Waldo, Arlington, Va 214
Rosen, Myer, Baltimore, Md 254
Rosenwinkle, Palmer, Linthicum, Md 145
Sapperstein, Ike, Baltimore, Md 122
Sherbow, Hon. Joseph, associate judge of the Supreme Bench of
Baltimore Citv, Md 298
Smith, Thomas S. , Maryland State Ploice 293
Souers, John H., Ferndale, Md 180
Wade, Capt. Wilbur C, Anne Arundel County, Md., Police Depart-
ment 169
Exhibits :
Affidavit from Lester C. Boggs, mayor, Hollywood, Fla. (correcting
confused testimony given before the committee in Miami, June 22,
1951) 95
m
INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE
COMMERCE
MONDAY, JULY 2, 1951
United States Senate,
Special Committee To Investigate Organized
Crime in Interstate Commerce,
Washington, D. C.
executive session
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10 : 15 a. m., in room P-36,
the Capitol, Senator Lester C. Hunt presiding.
Present : Senators O'Conor (chairman), Hunt, (presiding), Tobey
and Wiley.
Also present: Richard J. Moser, chief counsel; Downey Rice, as-
sociate counsel; Murray Jackson, Thomas S. Smith, investigators;
James Hepbron, administrative assistant; Wallace Reidt, assistant
counsel.
Senator Hunt. The committee will come to order.
This is a meeting of a subcommittee of the Senate Special Crime
Committee, as authorized by the full committee.
The first witness this morning is William Adams.
Mr. Adams, if you will stand, please, and be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. Adams. I do.
Senator Hunt. Counsel, would you be kind enough to announce
your name ?
Mr. Rogan. Senator Hunt, Mr. J. Francis Ford, my associate, and
myself, Mr. Joseph H. R. Rogan, are members of the Baltimore bar
with offices at 206 Davison Chemical Building, Baltimore.
We have been asked by our client, whom we have represented for
the past 10 or 12 years, upon the receipt of the subpena, to accompany
him here today. It is his purpose to give the committee any and all
information within his knowledge in accordance with Senate Reso-
lution 202 concerning organized crime in interstate commerce.
He has, as a matter of fact, frankly discussed with two investiga-
tors in the employ of this committee in my office on June 21 over a
period of 2 hours, his historical background and any other informa-
tion that he had. i
He desires to fully cooperate. Our only purpose in being here is to
suggest to the committee that there may be certain questions asked of
him, for instance, in connection with his income-tax returns, or his
2 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
business, when, at this time, there is an active investigation of his tax
returns as late as June 21, and he was with the investigators on the
day he had an appointment to again discuss the matter of income
taxes.
With that possible exception, insofar as some testimony that might
be given, or records that might be tendered, which might tend to
incriminate him, otherwise he wants to fully cooperate.
Senator Hunt. Thank you very kindly. You will be at liberty to
advise your client any time you wish.
Mi-. RoOAN. Thank you.
Senator Hunt. Counsel, will you proceed with the questioning.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM L. ADAMS, BALTIMORE, MD., ACCOM-
PANIED BY JOSEPH H. A. ROGAN AND J. FRANCIS FORD,
ATTORNEYS, BALTIMORE, MD.
Mr. Rice. "Will you state your name?
Mr. Adams. William Adams.
Mr. Rick. And do you have an initial I
Mr. Adams. L.
Mr. Rice. What does that stand for?
Mr. Adams. Lloyd.
Mr. Rice. Have you been known by any other names?
Mr. Adams. They call me "Willie.
Mr. Rice. Do they call you Little Willie?
Mr. Adams. That is right.
Mr. Rice. WTiere do you live ?
Mr. Adams. 3103 Carlisle Avenue.
Mr. Rice. Is that an apartment house?
Mr. Adams. No, sir; it is a private home.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any other homes?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Arc you appearing here in response to a subpena?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And did the subpena call for certain books and records?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Have you produced those records?
Mr. Adams. Those were the records that we discussed the day when
I was in Mr. Rogan's office with the two agents. I had my records,
but being investigated by Internal Revenue at the present time, I did
not turn the records over to them for that reason.
Mr. Rice. You say you are investigated by the Internal Revenue.
What is the nature of that investigation ?
Mr. Adams. General investigation of my income taxes.
Mr. Rice. "WTio is doing that?
Mr. Adams. I think a Mr. Kerr.
Mr. Rice. Mr. Kerr?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. He has a general investigation under way of your in-
come tax ?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. For what years is he interested in ?
Mr. Adams. I think 1947, 1948, and 1949.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 6
Mr. Rice. For the year 1950, do you have your copy of your Federal
income-tax return ?
Mr. Adams. I do not have any with me. I have one, at least my
lawyer has one of my tax returns — my tax accountants.
Mr. Rice. Which lawyer are you talking about?
Mr. Adams. Mr. Moss. M-o-s-s. He fills out my tax returns.
Mr. Rogax. We have a copy, Mr. Rice.
Mr. Rice. Let the record indicate that Senator O'Conor came into
the meeting.
(Senator O'Conor joined the hearing.)
Mr. Rice. The subpena called for the production of copies of your
Federal tax returns from 1940 to date. Now, specifically referring to
1950, what is your position about complying with that provision of the
subpena ? Have you brought that with you ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You haven't brought that ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is the reason for that ?
Mr. Rogan. Mr. Rice, in that connection
Senator Hunt. So that we won't get into any colloquy across the
table, I have always taken the position as chairman that counsel here
is present through the courtesy of the Senate committee and the par-
ticipation of the counsel is limited to the advice that he gives to his
client. So, if you have any advice to give your client, we will be
happy to have you do so ; otherwise, we get into discussions here, legal
technicalities and arguments, that take all day.
Mr. Adams. That is my 1950 return is in connection with my tax
investigation and that is the reason I would not produce those, in fear
that it might incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. You just indicated a minute ago that the investigation
was up to the year 1949. Are you making that to include 1950 \
Mr. Adams. Mr. Kerr stated at the time that this was a thorough
investigation and they started as around the first of the year and my
1950 return wasn't in at that time. So it seems that they will prob-
ably come back now after my 1950 return.
Mr. Rice. You are guessing now, then, in other words?
Mr. Adams. He said they were going to check me through all the
way.
Mr. Rice. What is your answer? Wasn't your answer a few min-
utes ago 1946 through 1949 ? Was that wrong ?
Mr. Adams. You asked me what vears they were checking. That's
1947, 1948, 1949, but they started as^of January.
Mr. Rice. Of what year?
Mr. Adams. Of this year.
Mr. Rice. This is 1951.
Mr. Adams. My 1950 return was not filed until April, I think,
because we had a 30-day extension, which makes it April 15.
Mr. Rice. Do you have specific information that your 1950 returns
are under investigation?
Mr. Adams. He said it was a thorough investigation.
Mr. Rice. He said it was a thorough investigation, but he previously
told you it was for the years '47, '48, and '49, didn't he ?
Mr. Adams. He didn't say particularly at that time. He asked me
for the records at that time. He came to my office and worked there
4 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
quite some time on '47, '48, '49, and my returns before that had been
checked up to '46.
Mr. Rick. Had they checked your records for the year 1950? Have
they called for your books and records?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. As a matter of fact, you don't know whether you are
under investigation for tlio year 1950, do you ?
Mr. Adams. No more than he said it was a general check-up all
the way, and from that I would believe that they would go after my
taxes being filed for 1950.
Mr. Rice. Let's see about 1945. Did you bring your copy of the
Federal tax return for the year 1945?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Why not?
Mr. Adams. Seeing that it was a general eheck-up, I imagined that
they would even go back to as far as that up to the present.
M r. Rice. In connection with that check-up, do you feel that check-
up is a reason why you should not produce your Federal tax return
for the year 1950 before this committee?
Mr. Adams. Yes, I do.
Mr. Rice. You think that is a reason?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. I am going to ask the Chair to direct the witness to pro-
duce his copies of the Federal tax returns for the year 1950. Will you
comply with that directive?
Mr. Adams. No. sir.
Mr. Rice. On what grounds ?
Mr. Adams. For fear that it might incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Incriminate you?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you think that production of your tax return for
the year 1950 may incriminate you?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you feel it will incriminate you of a Federal or State
offense ?
Mr. Adams. Federal offense.
Mr. Rice. And do you have a specific offense in mind?
Mr. Adams. Evasion of income tax.
Mr. Rice. Evasion of income tax? So you are worried about in-
crimination under the income-tax provisions?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Are you under indictment ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about the year 1942? Have you produced your
tax return for the year 1942?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. On what ground ?
Mr. Adams. Same reason.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of the statute of limitations?
Mr. Adams. I have heard of it, but I do not understand it.
Mr. Rice. You do not understand it. Perhaps counsel could help
you with the statute of limitations.
Can you help him with his answer as to why he has not produced
the return for 1942 ? Would you be good enough, Mr. Rogan, to advise
him on that ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE O
Mr. Rogan. Mr. Rice, is there any limitation insofar as criminal
prosecution is concerned ?
Mr. Rice. Yes. It is 6 years.
Mr. Rogan. How about fraud ?
Mr. Rice. Six years.
Mr. Rogan. I do not know whether I can agree with you on that,
Mr. Rice.
Mr. Rice. That is entirely up to you. I am asking you if you would
like to advise him.
Do you take the position that your failure to produce your returns
for 1942 is because it might incriminate you?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And in connection with that, you fear prosecution for
the Federal offense of tax evasion ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Now, sir, do you own an apartment building?
Before we leave that, I would like to ask the Chair to direct that
the witness produce a copy of his Federal income tax return for 1942.
Senator Hunt. Would the counsel indicate a limiting date?
Mr. Rice. Covering the year 1942.
Senator Hunt. For the time that they are given to present it to
the committee ? By what time do you want those produced ? Tomor-
row or a week from tomorrow ?
Mr. Rice. How long will that take you, Mr. Adams, to produce that?
Mr. Adams. I refuse to produce them for fear it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Rice. Within a week, Senator.
Senator Hunt. The committee, through the chairman, directs the
witness to produce his income-tax records, meaning his income-tax
report to the Federal Government, not later than 1 week from today,
to the committee.
Mr. Rogan. That is the 1942 return?
Senator Hunt. And 1950. Didn't you want that also ?
Mr. Rice. I think, for the purposes of this instruction, 1942 would
be sufficient.
Senator Hunt. 1942 would be sufficient.
Mr. Moser. You mean his copy of it?
Senator Hunt. Of his return. His copy of his report of his per-
sonal income.
Mr. Rogan. What is the time, Senator ?
Mr. Hunt. Within a week from today.
Mr. Rogan. One week?
Senator Hunt. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Do you understand that instruction, Mr. Adams?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What it is that we want?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is it?
Mr. Adams. You want a copy of the 1942 income-tax return.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What business are you in, Mr. Adams?
Mr. Adams. I am in the real-estate business and ladies' wearing
apparel.
6 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. What is the name of your real-estate business?
Mr. Adams. Adams Realty Brokers.
Mr. Rice. Adams Realty Brokers?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Is that a corporation ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is it?
Mr. Adams. Just a private ownership.
Mr. Rice. Who is the owner?
Mr. Adams. I am the owner.
Mr. Rice. Are there any other parties in interest?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Is it a registered proprietorship?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Where is the office located ?
Mr. Adams. 1519 Pennsylvania Avenue.
Mr. Rice. Who maintains the books and records for that organi-
zation?
Mr. Adams. I do.
Mr. Rice. Do vou have a brokerage license?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Are you a registered real-estate agent ?
Mr. Adams. Broker; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. You have a broker's license under the laws of the State
of Maryland ?
Mr. Adams. I do.
Mr. Rice. In connection with that, are you bonded ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You are not bonded ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Who are the other employees of the Adams Realty ?
Mr. Adams. My secretary.
Mr. Rice. What is his or her name?
Mr. Adams. Miss Helen Fisher.
Mr. Rice. Helen Fisher?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Is she on a salary basis?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How much does she get?
Mr. Adams. $35 a week.
Mr. Rice. What are her duties ?
Mr. Adams. She keeps the records, makes the entries into the books,
and receives the calls.
Mr. Rice. Does she buy and sell real estate?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Who else is employed by that company?
Mr. Adams. Mr. Roy Bates.
Mr. Rice. B-a-t-e-s?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What is his job ?
.Mr. Adams. He is an agent.
Mr. Rice. He is an agent?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 7
Mr. Rice. Is he a licensed agent?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How is he paid ?
Mr. Adams. Only through commissions.
Mr. Rice. Through commissions?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What were his earnings in 1950, approximately ?
Mr. Adams. He hasn't been there, probably since the latter part
of 1950.
Mr. Rice. What were his commissions last month, May? June?
I guess it is June now. What did he make in June ?
Mr. Adams. I do not know if we had a sale in June or not, frankly.
Mr. Rice. You don't know whether you had a sale or not. When
was his last sale that you know of ?
Mr. Adams. It probably would have been in May. If it wasn't in
June, probably May.
Mr. Rice. From the first of the year until July 1, how many sales
would you say have been made ?
Mr. Adams. By whom?
Mr. Rice. By anyone in connection with the company.
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't know offhand, not too many.
Mr. Rice. Would you say there were a dozen ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Less than a dozen?
Mr. Adams. Less than a dozen.
Mr. Rice. Less than five?
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't say less than five.
Mr. Rice. You would say between 5 and 10?
Mr. Adams. Somewhere in there.
Mr. Rice. Of those sales, from January 1 until July 1, what was
the total commissions earned by the company?
Mr. Adams. Well. I wouldn't know offhand.
Mr. Rice. Approximately. It is your business.
Mr. Adams. Probably twelve or thirteen hundred dollars, I guess.
Mr. Rice. Are there any other employees in that company ?
Mr. Adams. Sir ?
Mr. Rice. Are there any other employees in that company?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Mr. Bates is the only one— and the girl?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. You mentioned you were in another business. What was
the other business ?
Mr. Adams. Ladies' wearing apparel.
Mr. Rice. What was the name of that?
Mr. Adams. Charm Center.
Mr. Rice. Is that a corporation?
Mr. Adams. No, sir. It is a partnership.
Mr. Rice. And who are the partners ?
Mr. Adams. Miss Lottie Johnson and myself.
Mr. Rice. Is that a registered partnership ?
Mr. Adams. I do not know. What is a registered partnership?
Mr. Rice. If you don't know, don't answer.
How long has the Charm Center been a partnership?
8 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Adams. Since the beginning.
Mr. Rick. Since the beginnings
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. When was that?
Mr. Adams. Around December of 1947.
Mr. Rice. And where is the headquarters of the Charm Center?
Mr. Adams. 1911 Pennsylvania Avenue.
Mr. Rice. Is that the same address as the real-estate company ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Was that 1911 Pennsylvania Avenue? What is that?
Mr. Adams. Just the Charm Center.
Mr. Rice. Is that a store?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. At the time that was formed what was your investment
and what was her investment ?
Mr. Adams. At the time it was formed she did not have any invest-
ment in it. I put up the money.
Mr. Rice. How much did you put up?
Mr. Adams. I think in the beginning it was $28,000.
Mr. Rice. You put up $28,000? What was the line of business?
Mr. Adams. We sell ladies' wearing apparel.
Mr. Rice. On a retail basis?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What was her interest I She was going to work and you
were going to back her; is that the idea ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. She is still there?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What gross business did she do last year? How much
gross business?
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't know offhand. To tell you the truth, I
guess $80,000.
Mr. Rice. WThat was the net?
Mr. Adams. I could not say that offhand.
Mr. Rice. You understand you have $28,000 invested in this. I feel
you should know something about this business.
Mr. Adams. I do.
Mr. Rice. What is your best guess as to your net ? What did you
draw down ?
Mr. Adams. I didn't draw down anything.
Mr. Rick. Did they make any money?
Mi-. Adams. They made some money.
Mr. Rice. What became of the money that was made ?
Mr. Adams. It is a charge account business and most of the money
-(ays lied up in accounts.
Mr. Rice. Yrou reinvest it?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. I see.
Mr. Adams. Turn-over.
Mr. Rick. What are the total assets of the company worth now, the
partnership \ Is it more than $28,000 ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. More than $28,000?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 9
Mr. Rice. Who keeps the books and records for the Charm Center ?
Mr. Adams. We have a bookkeeper on the premises.
Mr. Rice. What is his or her name \
Mr. Adams. Miss Veria Butler.
Mr. Rice. How many employees does the Charm Center have ?
Mr. Adams. Approximately six, I would say.
Mr. Rice. Are they on a salary basis?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. They are salespeople?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. How about this Mrs. Johnson? Is that her name?
Mr. Adams. Miss Lottie Johnson.
Mr. Rice. How is Lottie Johnson compensated?
Mr. Adams. Through a third of the profits.
Mr. Rice. A third of the profits?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How much did that amount to last year for her?
Mr. Adams. I couldn't say offhand.
Mr. Rice. Who gets the other two-thirds?
Mr. Adams. The other two-thirds is the money that is actually mine.
I mean it would be on the ownership.
Mr. Rice. What became of your two-thirds? I take it she draws
her one-third in cash?
Mr. Adams. Actually what has happened is she has had a drawing
account against the business since it has been opened. Aside from that,
there haven't been any profits broken down, no more than probably at
the end of the term the accountants would show this proportion, what
she would have in there, but her account has never been deducted from
that.
Mr. Rice. How much is her drawing account?
Mr. Adams. It is no set figure. It is just what she has to have to get
along.
Mr. Rice. Approximately what is that?
Mr. Adams. I really couldn't tell you.
Mr. Rice. You have $28,000 tied up in here? She doesn't have an
unlimited drawing account, has she?
Mr. Adams. We haven't been in a position to have an unlimited
drawing account.
Mr. Rice. Approximately how much did she draw last year?
Mr. Adams. I do not know last year. Since she has been there, I
do not remember the whole total, but I think it is around $8,000.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any written agreement with her?
Mr. Adams. I have a contract.
Mr. Rice. A contract?
M r. Adams. Where she get a third of the profits.
Mr. Rice. A contract where she gets a third of the profits. How
about a loss? Suppose there is a loss, does she share the loss?
Mr. Adams. There wasn't any clause in there as far as any loss.
Mr. Rice. She just shares a third of the profits?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rick. Who has a copy of that contract ?
Mr. Adams. I have a copy of it.
Mr. Rice. Who prepared the contract?
Mr. Adams. Mr. Hoffman, an attorney.
10 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Kick. And you have a copy?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rick. I wonder if we might instruct you to brine: a copy in
next Monday when you bring the other in. Will you do that?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kick. And at the same time we would like to take a look at
the books and records.
You have indicated that the gross business was $80,000 in the last
year. Suppose we take a look at the books and records and the
checking accounts for the company for the years 1949 and 1950. So
you will bring those in with your partnership agreement.
Mi-. Adams. Those records, sir, are under investigation, and I would
refuse to bring those for fear they will incriminate me.
Mr. Rick. You will refuse on those?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. I will ask the Chair that the witness be directed to bring
the partnership agreement and the books and records of the Charm
Center for the years 1949 and 1950. Will the Chair so instruct the
witness?
Senator Hunt. The Chair instructs the witness to present to the
committee 1 week from today the contract and the records with refer-
ence to the business in which you are interested, known as the Charm
Mr. Rogan. For the years 1949 and 1950?
Senator Hunt. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Before we leave that, did Chandler Wynn have any in-
terest in the Charm Center ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Does he have any interest in any enterprise you have an
interest in ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is that?
Mr. Adams. He is a stockholder in the Biddison Music Co.
Mr. Rice. The Biddison Music Co. is a corporation, is it not?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is your interest in the Biddison Music Co. ?
Mr. Adams. Stockholder.
Mr. Rice. Are you also an officer and director?
Mr. Adams. I am an officer.
Mr. Rice. What office do you hold?
Mr. Adams. Treasurer.
Mr. Rice. You are the treasurer?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Who are the other stockholders and officers if you know?
Mr. Adams. Mr. Cortlandt L. Brown is one, and Mr. Chandler
Wynn.
Sir. Rice. What is Brown?
Mr. Adams. He is the president.
Mr. Rice. He is the president?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And he owns stock, too?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Who is the vice president?
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 11
Mr. Adams. I do not know if we have a vice president. I do not
think so.
Mr. Rice. You have a treasurer, though ?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Do you have a secretary ?
Mr. Adams. Chandler Wynn is the secretary.
Mr. Rice. Where is the bank account of the Biddison Music Co.
kept ?
Mr. Adams. Equitable Trust Co.
Mr. Rice. Who is authorized to draw checks on the account in the
Equitable Trust ?
Mr. Adams. I do not know of anybody except Mr. Brown.
Mr. Rice. Are you authorized to draw checks?
Mr. Adams. I do not know if I am authorized or not.
Mr. Rice. You are the treasurer. Normally the treasurer keeps
the account. You understand that. Normally he draws the checks.
You don't do that in this company ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is the business of the Biddison Music Co. ?
Mr. Adams. Music boxes, nickelodeons, in locations.
(Senator Wiley left the hearing.)
Mr. Rice. How long has that been a corporation ? How long is it
since its beginning?
Mr. Adams. I think it was the early part of 1947.
Mr. Rice. What percentage of stock do you hold in the Biddison
Music Co.?
Mr. Adams. I don't know exactly.
Mr. Rice. How much money did you pay in to acquire the stock?
Mr. Adams. I haven't finished paying in as yet. I bargained to
pay in approximately $55,000.
Mr. Rice. You borrowed $55,000 ?
Mr. Adams. I bargained to pay in.
Mr. Rice. You bargained ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. For that $55,000, what were you to get?
Mr. Adams. It was approximately half the stock, close to half of
the stock.
Mr. Rice. Close to half?
Mr. Adams. I think so.
Mr. Rice. Who had the other half?
Mr. Adams. Between Mr. Brown and Mr. Wynn.
Mr. Rice. They are split more or less 50-50, so there are three of
you there?
Mr. Adams. I don't know exactly how they are split. There is
another fellow by the name of Carroll who has a little stock.
Mr. Rice. What is Carroll's first name ?
Mr. Adams. Elmer Carroll.
Mr. Rice. How much interest does he have?
Mr. Adams. I don't think it is very much, because I think he ac-
quired his interest through a few stocks he had in the music business,
and he came in there.
Mr. Rice. Where is the Biddison Music Co. located?
Mr. Adams. 1426 Pennsylvania Avenue.
Mr. Rice. What do they have there ? A store ?
12 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. An cms. It is ;i -tore front — office and equipment.
Mr. Kick. Thai is the headquarters there?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Do they own that place of business there I
Mr. Adams. No.
Mr. Kick. Do they rent it?
Mr. Adams. Kent it.
Mr. Kick. Who keeps the books and records of the Biddison Music
Co.?
Mr. Adams. They have a staff there.
Mr. Rick. Who keeps the books and records?
Mr. Adams. I don't exactly know, but it is all in Mr. Brown's care,
the | .resident. He supervises the whole tiling.
Mr. Rice. Mr. Brown supervises the whole thing?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. You just answered that you have a $55,000 investment in
there. Don't you know who keeps t he books or records ?
Mr. Adams. Mr. Brown is the head of it.
Mr. Rick. Suppose you wanted do find out how the business was
going. You are the treasurer. You also have a large investment.
Whom do you check up with ?
Mr. Adams. Mr. Brown.
Mr. Rice. You check with Mr. Brown?
Mr. Adams. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Does he keep the books and records himself?
Mr. Adams. No; he has personnel in there to help him.
Mr. Rice. Do you know who the actual person is who keeps those
records ?
Mi-. Adams. There are two people in the office. One is Mr. Bristow.
I do not recall his first name. There is a lady there, too. I do not
recall her name.
Mr. Rick. You say they have juke boxes, music boxes?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rick. What else?
Mr. Adams. They have different types of games.
Mr. Rice. Pinball games?
Mr. Adam--. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kick. Do they have one-ball games?
Mr. Adams. I do not know. 1 am not familiar too much with that
part of it. because it is more or less strictly a music company, but they
have a few games aside from music.
Mr. Rice. They could have one-ball games?
Mr. Adams. They could.
Mr. Rice. Do t hey distribute slot machines?
Mr. Adams. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Do they distribute slot machines? Do they have slot
machines?
Mr. Adams. No, sir; we do not distribute anything. I do not think
we do.
Mr. Kick. What do you do with the machines?
Mr. Adams, dust put them out in different taverns or locations and
restaurants.
Mr. Rice, ruder what arrangement? Do you have Seeburg juke
1 oxe '
Mr. Adams. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 13
Mr. Rice. You have a Seeburg box and you have a restaurant down
the street that wants one. What arrangements do you make with
that restaurant?
Mr. Adams. More or less, you put a man on a percentage basis.
Mr. Rice. On a percentage basis? What percentage?
Mr. Adams. Around a 50-50 basis.
Mr. Rice. For every nickel that goes in, the company takes 214 cents
and the place takes 2y2 cents. You own the machines and put the
records in ?
Mr. Adams. That is right.
Mr. Rice. How about on pinball devices?
Mr. Adams. I think they happen to have a few. They have a few of
those bowlers.
Mr. Rice. You know what a pinball machine is?
Mr. Adams. Yes; I know what a pinball machine is. When you
shoot the balls out.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Adams. I am very doubtful whether we have an}* at all.
Mr. Rice. It is possible, though ?
Mr. Adams. Certainly.
Mr. Rice. And the same arrangement, if you do have those, is made
as with the juke boxes?
Mr. Adams. I think so.
Mr. Rice. What gross business did the Biddison Music Co. do last
year?
Mr. Adams. I think we have a fiscal year there.
Mr. Rice. Your last fiscal year, then. When does the fiscal year
run ?
Mr. Adams. Until March 30.
Mr. Rice. The 30th of March?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. In the year ending March 30, 1951, what gross business
did you do in that fiscal year?
Mr. Adams. I said approximately — this is approximately now.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Adams. Approximately $100,000 or a little bit better.
Mr. Rice. What was your net on that gross business?
Mr. Adams. I do not know.
Mr. Rice. Are you on a salary basis?
Mr. Adams. I am not on anything there.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever drawn a dividend ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever drawn anything from the Biddison
Music Co.?
Mr. Adams. Xo, sir.
Mr. Rice. Is it a loss as far as you are concerned ?
Mr. Adams. It is coming along better now, but we were in so much
debt that it has taken everything to kind of keep us going until the
present time.
Mr. Rice. How much of your $55,000 that you agreed to pay in
have you paid?
Mr. Adams. Forty.
85277—51 — pt. 17 2
14 ORGANIZED CRIME EN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. $40,000 \ You paid in $40,000, and you have taken back
nothing?
Mr. Adams. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What are the total assets of the company now? What
is the company worth?
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't know offhand.
Senator Hunt. Would the counsel not just put the answer in the
witness' mouth? It is quite right for you to tell him not to answer,
but you are indirectly answering the questions for the witness. I
tii ink that is quite improper.
Mr. Kick. Is Mr. Wyim on a salary basis?
Mr. Adams. lie works for the company.
Mr. Rice. What does he draw?
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Rice. How about Mr. Brown?
Mr. Adams. He is president.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What does he draw?
Mr. Adams. I think he draws around $150 a week, or something
like that.
Mr. Rice. He is on a salary basis?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. As treasurer, what do you draw?
Mr. Adams. Not anything.
Mr. Rice. What do you do?
Mr. Adams. 1 don't work for the company at all. I have never been
employed by them.
Mr. Ruk. You have never been employed?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Have you attended meetings of the officers ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How often do they occur?
Mr. Adams. Just when Mr. Brown thinks something important to
bring us up to date on. Mr. Wynn hasn't been employed there but
about a year. Mr. Brown was in that business with the company that
owned it before we were ever interested in it for about 15 years, and
he continued to run the company after we bought into it.
Mr. Rice. When you have these meetings, where do they take place?
Mr. Adams. At L426 Pennsylvania Avenue.
Mr. Rice. Do you reduce those meetings to minutes in a minute book?
Mr. Adams. Probably some of the minutes, but just general discus-
sions, I would say, uNo."
Mr. Ruk. Who keeps the minute book?
Mr. Adams. Mr. Brown.
Mr. Rick. Do you have any other business interests?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What is one of those?
Mr. Adams. One is Carr Beach.
Mr. Rice. What is your main business? You indicated you don't
spend much time with the music company and the real-estate com-
pany and. obviously, not with the dress business.
Mr. Adams. I didn't say I didn't spend much time with the real-
estate business.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 15
Mr. Rice. Is that your main business?
Mr. Adams. That and spending my time in the club.
Mr. Rice. What club is that?
Mr. Adams. That is my wife's club, the Club Casino.
Mr. Rice. Tell us about the Club Casino. Where is that located ?
Mr. Adams. 1519 Pennsylvania Avenue.
Mr. Rice. What is the Club Casino?
Mr. Adams. It is a corporation.
Mr. Rice. What is the name of it?
Mr. Adams. Club Casino, Inc.
Mr. Rice. What type of business is that ?
Mr. Adams. It is a tavern.
Mr. Rice. That is a tavern ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Does it have a liquor license?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Wliose name is that in ?
Mr. Adams. Club Casino, Inc.
Mr. Rice. The license is in the corporate name ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Who are the principal stockholders?
Mr. Adams. My wife Victorinia Adams.
Mr. Rice. What is she in that corporation ?
Mr. Adams. She is the secretary.
Mr. Rice. Who is the president of that?
Mr. Adams. I think Mr. Gatewood.
Mr. Rice. What is his first name ?
Mr. Adams Askew.
Mr. Rice. He is the president?
Mr. Adams. I think so.
Mr. Rice. Any other officers ?
Mr. Adams. Mr. J. R. Ross.
Mr. Rice. What is the gross business that the Club Casino does?
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't know offhand.
Mr. Rice. How much interest does your wife have in it ?
Mr. Adams. At least 50 percent.
Mr. Rice. How much was her investment to get that 50 percent?
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't know offhand.
Mr. Rice. Do you file joint tax returns with your wife?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And you do not know how much investment she has there ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Is she on a salary basis ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What does she draw ?
Mr. Adams. Three hundred a month.
Mr. Rice. Three hundred a month?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Does she get dividends in addition to that?
Mr. Adams. Never made any dividends.
Mr. Rice. Does the Club Casino serve food ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And drink?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
16 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mi-. Rica . Are there any juke boxes there?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Was that put in by the Biddison Music Co. ?
Mr. Adams. 5 es.
Mr. Kick. Have you ever been arrested?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. When was the first time? What was it for?
Mr. Adams. In 1936 or 1937 I was the president of the Democratic
Club and the bartender was arrested for having beer on the bar after
2 o'clock in the morning.
Mr. Rice. After hours?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Were you fined in connection with that?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever served any time?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever spent a night in jail '.
M i . Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Never spent a night in jail ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever been arrested for anything besides what
the bartender did?
Mr. Adams. I do not remember the year. One time prior to that
I was arrested in connection with a lottery, but I really don't know.
I don't even know what year it was.
Mr. Rice. Where was that ? Where was that that you were arrested
for lottery ?
Mr. Adams. I was sitting in a car with another fellow at the time.
I do not recall what year it was. I do not recall if I was fined.
Mr. Rice. It was 1939?
Mr. Adams. 1939?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You were convicted one time earlier than that on num-
bers.
M r. Adams. That is what I am trying to figure out. I do not know
whether I was convicted or not. That is what I was trying to find
out. I was a kid then, and I do not remember. I do not remember
what year it was.
Mr. Rice. You do not remember serving any time?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do yon recall ever paying a fine for numbers?
Mr. Adams. I do nol recall.
Mr. Rice. Is it possible you did?
Mr. Adams. I didn't. 1 do not recall at all : no, sir.
Mr. Rogan. May J ask him how old he was at that time?
Senator Hint. Yes: yon may go ahead.
Mi. Rogan. How old were you at the time you were seated in the
automobile \
Mr. Adams. Sixteen years old.
Mi. Rice. How old are you now?
Mr. Adams. Thirty-seven.
Mr. Rogan. Thereason I asked that was that I searched the criminal
records of Baltimore City. He told me about the business of being
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 17
in an automobile when he was 16 years of age. I couldn't even find
a record in the criminal court of Baltimore.
Mr. Ford. What year was it?
Mr. Rice. The witness knows that.
Mr. Ford. Don't you '.
Mr. Rice. I am not the witness.
Going back to your business interests, do you have any interest in
the Scarlett County Club?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever have ?
Mr. Adams. Xo, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any interest in any country club on West-
minster Pike?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Ever heard of it?
Mr. Adams. I heard of it.
Mr. Rice. Have you had any interest with Austin Scarlett?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Never been connected in business with Scarlett ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about Carr Beach ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is that?
Mr. Adams. That is an amusement park.
Mr. Rice. Is that a corporation \
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is the name of that ?
Mr. Adams. Carr Beach Amusement Co., Inc.
Mr. Rice. Are you an officer of that ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What officer?
Mr. Adams. Secretary.
Mr. Rice. Who is the president?
Mr. Adams. L. B. Gamby.
Mr. Rice. Where is he located?
Mr. Adams. You mean his residence ?
Mr. Rice. Yes, where is his place of business ?
Mr. Adams. He doesn't have a business, except at Carr Beach.
Mr. Rice. Is that where the office is?
Mr. Adams. We have our office there during the summer and then
•during the winter months we hold the meetings in our office.
Mr. Rice. Is that G-a-m-b-y ?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Where would we find Mr. Gamby ?
Mr. Adams. More or less at Carr Beach.
Mr. Rice. Mostly more is what we are interested in.
Mr. Adams. Nobody lives there.
Mr. Rice. Who keeps the records of Carr Beach ?
Mr. Adams. Robert Dunmore.
Mr. Rice. Where is he located ?
Mr. Adams. He was at my office. He is now at the Providence
Hospital. But he still comes in and takes care of the records.
Mr. Rice. He is where ?
Mr. Adams. He is an accountant for the Providence Hospital.
18 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. He works there now ?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. He keeps the books for Carr Beach in his spare time?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. He keeps them in your office?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Where is that? 1519 Pennsylvania Avenue?
Mr. Adams. Yes, 1519 Pennsylvania Avenue.
Mr. Rice. Are you the secretary?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Are you the custodian of the books and records?
Mr. Adams. Yes. They are there in my office.
Mr. Rice. I think we will ask the Chair to direct the witness to bring
the books and records of Carr Beach when he comes in next Monday.
Senator Hunt. The Chair directs the witness to bring in the records
of Carr Beach a week from today.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any interest in Sparrows Beach?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about the Creyton Southern Sausage Co.?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir ; I have some stock.
Mr. Rice. Are you an officer?
Mr. Adams. I am the vice president, I think; I have never been
active.
Mr. Rice. What is the nature of that business?
Mr. Adams. Processing meats.
Mr. Rice. What is the proper name of the company ?
Mr. Adams. Creyton Southern Sausage Co.
Mr. Rice. Where is that located?
Mr. Adams. The home office is in Cleveland, Ohio.
Mr. Rice. Where is the Baltimore office?
Mr. Adams. He has a little small plant in Baltimore.
Mr. Rice. Where is that located?
Mr. Adams. 1700 Edding Street.
Mr. Rice. You have stock in the company ? Is that the main com-
pany? Is that the one?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is the extent of your investment there ?
Mr. Adams. I think $30,000.
Mr. Rice. How about the Joe Louis Bottling Co. ? Do you have any
interest in that?
Mr. Adams. I was given a little piece of stock. I never had any
interest in there so far as putting any money in it is concerned.
Mr. Rice. You wore given stock? Who give you the stock?
Mr. Adams. The organizer, Mr. Graham.
Mr. Rice. Why did he give you stock?
Mi. Adams. I was a very good friend of Joe's. He was having some
difficulty at the time he was organizing this bottling company in refer-
ence to some other people — Mr. Straus or someone — he was having
trouble in Mike Jacob's office. They wanted to take it over for some
reason. I do not know why. Joe had not signed the papers for him
giving him the rights to use his names. By me being very friendly
with Joe, it was through possibly that reason that he actually got the
papers signed by Joe, leaving Straus out of it.
Mr. Rice. Straus is a Baltimore man?
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 19
Mr. Adams. No, sir. This was a Mr. Straus, a lawyer in Mr. Mike
Jacobs' office, the promoter.
Mr. Rice. In New York?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What did you do?
Mr. Adams. I was a close friend of Joe Louis.
Mr. Rice. What did that gain for Joe?
Mr. Adams. Mr. Graham wanted Joe to sign the papers and seem-
ingly Mr. Strauss was holding up those papers for some reason.
Mr. Rice. Who is Mr. Graham?
Mr. Adams. Mr. William B. Graham. He was the organizer.
Mr. Rice. Of the bottling company?
Mr. Adams. Joe Louis Bottling Co.
Mr. Rice. He wanted Joe Louis to sign?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir. He wanted Joe to sign the papers in refer-
ence to Joe giving him the right to use his name for the Joe Louis
Punch.
Mr. Rice. Yes, and what did you do ?
Mr. Adams. I talked to Joe.
Mr. Rtce. You convinced him?
Mr. Adams. I talked to him. I do not know whether I convinced
him.
Mr. Rice. Persuaded him ?
Mr. Adams. I talked to him and told him I thought that was prob-
ably the right thing to do and it was through that I knew Joe that
he signed the papers and gave him the full right to sponsor the pro-
gram.
Mr. Rice. As a result of that, you got an interest in the company ?
Mr. Adams. He gave me a piece of organization stock.
Mr. Rice. Do you still have it?
Mr. Adams. I have it, but I do not think it is any good now.
Mr. Rice. Where is the headquarters located?
Mr. Adams. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Where is the office ?
Mr. Adams. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Do you have the stock certificate ?
Mr. Adams. I have it, but I do not know where it is.
Mr. Rice. You are not making anything on that ?
Mr. Adams. I think the company has gone up. I don't think it
has ever been a success at all.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any interest in any other business enter-
prises ?
Mr. Adams. I think that covers it.
Mr. Rice. You think that covers it?
Mr. Adams. I think that covers it.
Mr. Rice. That covers it, you think ?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Where do you keep your personal bank account ?
Mr. Adams. I would say at the Union Trust Co. and the Equitable
Trust Co.
Mr. Rice. Are those accounts in your name ?
Mr. Adams. I only have one there. It is at Equitable Trust Co.
Mr. Rice. What about the Union Trust?
Mr. Adams. I don't have any.
20 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
You asked me where I usually keep them.
Mr. Rice. I said : Where do you keep them ?
Mr. Adams. It would be at the Equitable Trust. I don't have any-
thing now.
Mr. Rice. You don't have a bank account?
Mr. Adams. No more than a checking account.
Mr. Rice. Where is that?
Mr. Adams. Union Trust. It is in the name of Adams Realty Co.
Mr. Rice. You don't have an individual checking account?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. How do you pay your gas bill?
Mr. Adams. Through my office.
Mr. Rice. Adams Realty Co. ?
Mr. Adams. Adams Realty Co.
Mr. Rice. Through their checks?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How do you straighten that out?
Mr. Adams. Our business is more or less collecting rents.
Mr. Rice. I am talking about your electric bill and gas and tele-
phone bills at home at Carlyle.
Mr. Adams. I have my personal account to do it with.
Mr. Rice. You run an account in Adams Realty and let them pay
everything?
Mr. Adams. We have accounts for every client; we take care of
their property.
Mr. Rice. How many other clients do you have like yourself that
you take care of paying their personal telephone bill for?
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Rice. Approximately?
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't know approximately how many accounts
we have. We take care of other people's property and pay their
building and loan association.
Mr. Rice. And their telephone bill ?
Mr. Adams. I do not pay anybody's telephone bill but my own.
Mr. Rice. Your own ?
Mr. Adams. My office and my own.
Mr. Rice. You pay your home telephone bill ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Suppose you have a grocery bill, how do you pay that?
Mr. Adams. Pay that in cash.
Mr. Rice. But your telephone bill you pay through Adams Realty
Co.?
Mr. Adams. My gas and electric and my telephone bills.
Mr. Rice. Do you have a safe-deposit box?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Where is that located ?
Mr. Adams. Union Trust Co.
Mr. Rice. Whose name is that under?
Mr. Adams. William Adams.
Mr. Rice. Who else has a key to it?
Mr. Adams. No one.
Mr. Rick. Just you i
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any other safe-deposit boxes?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 21
Mr. Rice. What do you have in the safe-deposit box ?
Mr. Adams. I really wouldn't know offhand.
Mr. Rice. You are the man who has a key.
Mr. Adams. It has been quite sometime since I have been in there.
I use it for keeping more important papers. I have had it for a long
time, Before I had my office set up, I more or less used to keep deeds
to property in there.
Mr. Rice. Do you keep any cash in there?
Mr. Adams. Very little.
Mr. Rice. Very little?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. You say you keep some deeds to property in there. What
properties do you own ?
Mr. Adams. What properties do I own ?
Mr. Rice. You own your own home, don't you ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Does that have any mortgages against it ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What else do you own ? How about Druid Hill Avenue?
Mr. Adams. My wife owns that property, 2340 Druid Hill Avenue.
My wife owns it,
Mr. Rice. What is that?
Mr. Adams. Apartment house and store fronts.
Mr. Rice. Apartment house and stores ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Does your wife have any independent income except this
job in the tavern, Club Casino ?
Mr. Adams. She was a school teacher. She taught school up until
1944.
Mr. Rice. She was a school teacher before that ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Was it her money that she used to buy Drew Hill, or was
it your money that you put in her name ?
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't say it that way. I sold Drew Hill Avenue
to her and it has been paid back, probably through her profits that
she has made from it.
Mr. Rice. You sold it to her ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How much did you charge her for that property?
Mr. Adams. $18,000.
Mr. Rice. And she has paid it back ?
Mr. Adams. Something around that figure.
Mr. Rice. How much did she put up when she bought it?
Mr. Adams. She didn't pay anything.
Mr. Rice. As a matter of fact, you transferred title ?
Mr. Adams. I sold it to her because I gave her another piece of
property which was 1517 to 1519 Pennsylvania Avenue. I gave her
that, but Drew Hill Avenue, I didn't,
Mr. Rice. What are these properties on Pennsylvania Avenue you
are talking about you gave her ?
Mr. Adams. That is where the Club Casino is.
Mr. Rice. You gave her that property ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
22 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. That is 1517 to 1519 Pennsylvania Avenue?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Those are three parcels there?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kick. That is all Club Casino ?
Mr. A d \ m a. No, sir. One is a little bootblack next door. The other
two arc ( 'lull ( 'asino.
Mr. Kick. How about 1502 Pennsylvania Avenue?
Mr. Adams. That belongs to Mr. Chandler Wynn and myself.
Mr. Rice. "What type of tenancy do you have? Joint tenancy or
tenancy in common ?
Mr. Adams. It is the one where I have my equal rights to my share
and lie has his equal rights to his. I don't know whether that would
be in common.
Mr. Rice. What is that ?
M r. A da m s. Store fronts and apartments upstairs.
Mr. Kick. It is an apartment building ?
Mr. Adams. It has three or four apartments.
Mr. Rice. You are in 50-50 with Chandler Wynn ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about 1811 Pennsylvania Avenue?
Mr. Adams. I own that.
Mr. Rice. What is that?
Mr. Adams. That is a store front. That is where the store Charm
Center is.
Mr. Rice. 1923 East Madison Street?
Mr. Adams. My wife owns that now.
Mr. Rice. What is that?
Mr. Adams. That is a building with a store front, one apartment
upstairs.
M r. Rice. A business building ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Your wife owns that ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Did you give that to her ?
Mr. Adams. Xo, sir. She just bought that last year.
Mr. Rice. Where did she get the money to buy that?
Mr. Adams. She paid $1,700 out of her account in Adams Realty.
Mr. Rice. Does she have an account in Adams Realty, too?
Mr. Adams. We handle her account the same as we handle the
other clients, what you call a fiduciary account. All her money goes
in there.
Mr. Rice. 3101 Carlyle — that is where you live, isn't it? Do you
or your wife own any other properties?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What other properties do you have?
Mr. Ad\ms. I have 1S191A and 1821 Pennsylvania Avenue and 820
Rutland Avenue, and 10-2.°) Ashland Avenue.
Mr. Rice. Going back to 1819% and 1821 Pennsylvania Avenue,
what is in there?
Mr. Adams. Jusl dwellings, private homes.
Mr. Rick. On Rutland?
Mr. Adams. Just a private dwelling.
Mr. Rice. Who lives there?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 23
Mr. Adams. My sister.
Mr. Rice. What was the last one ?
Mr. Adams. 1823 Ashland Avenue.
Mr. Rice. Who lives there?
Mr. Adams. Mrs. Robinson.
Mr. Rice. Is that a dwelling ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Who is Mrs. Robinson ?
Mr. Adams. Mrs. Mary Robinson.
Mr. Rice. Is she a relation to you ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Is she a tenant?
Mr. Adams. She is an elderly lady. She is a tenant. She doesn't
pay any rent. In fact, it was her house and she turned the house
over to me sometime ago, because she was sick.
Mr. Rice. Is she somebody you are taking care of?
Mr. Adams. I do not take care of her. It is sometimes necessary
for me to give her something. I give her something if it is necessary.
She has a son. I do not collect rent from her.
Mr. Rice. Do you know Hiram Butler?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Who is he ?
Mr. Adams. Sgt. Hiram Butler of the police department.
Mr. Rice. Baltimore Police Department?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. How well do you know him ?
Mr. Adams. Very well.
Mr. Rice. Do you see him every day ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever take many trips with him ?
Mr. Adams. We have been gunning, I think, once.
Mr. Rice. You went gunning ?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Where did you go gunning?
Mr. Adams. Up in Frederick County.
Mr. Rice. Frederick County? Dr. Adams' place up there?
Mr. Adams. Dr. Bourne, Eulis C. Bourne.
Mr. Rice. Up in Frederick County ?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. How long did you stay up there?
Mr. Adams. Just a day.
Mr. Rice. Who else went besides Butler?
Mr. Adams. Dr. Fred Adams and a fellow named Pat Ball.
Mr. Rice. Pat who ?
Mr. Adams. Pat Ball.
Mr. Rice. Pat Ball?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What did you hunt up there ?
Mr. Adams. Rabbits.
Mr. Rice. Any other persons from the police department go
along ?
Mr. Adams. Not as I know of. I do not recall any.
Mr. Rice. Think about it a little bit. It wasn't so long ago.
Mr. Adams. It was 2 years ago.
24 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. Yes. Did anyone else go along?
M p. Adams. I don't recall.
Mr. Kick. Did Butler ride with you?
Mr. Adams. I beg your pardon?
Mr. Rice. Did Butler ride with you in the car when you went up
there '
Mr. Adams. I really do not know. I do not know if I rode with
someone or I went up by myself. I do not know. I really do not re-
call who rode with whom.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever transacted any business with Butler?
Mr. Adams. Not as I know of.
Mr. Rice. How did you happen to be friendly with him?
Air. Adams. I have known him. I am right there on Pennsylvania
Avenue and they work that territory, more or less up and down there —
Sergeant Butler and Sergeant Johnson — and I think I have given
them quite a bit of information pertaining to some certain things.
Mr. Rice. Ever give them a bottle of liquor?
Mr. Adams. I do not knowT if I have ever given them a bottle of
liquor. He probably got a bottle of liquor from the place.
Mr. Rice. From the Casino?
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't say offhand.
Mr. Rice. As a gift, you mean?
Mr. Adams. I say I wouldn't know if it was. It would be more or
less, I guess.
Mr. Rice. As a matter of fact, you know about it, don't you? You
know about him getting some liquor from there?
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't say one way or the other.
Mr. Rice. You wouldn't say you wouldn't know about it?
Mr. Adams. I couldn't say exactly I do, either, but if he wanted it
and asked for it, I am quite sure he probably would get it.
Mr. Rice. Without paying for it ?
Mr. Adams. Probably a bottle, not a whole lot.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever transacted any money business with him ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Never gave him any money indirectly?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about at Christmas time?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Have any of your employees ever given him any money ?
M r. Adams. Not that I know of.
Mr. Rice. Ever handle any property transactions for him?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Has the realty company handled any property trans-
actions for him?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you know7 Captain Kriss ?
Mr. Adams. In the northwest?
Mr. Rice. Yes, sir.
Mi-. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever transacted business with Captain Kriss?'
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Sure about that?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How often do you see him?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 25
Mr. Adams. Haven't seen him for a long time.
Senator O'Conor. I think there might be some misunderstanding.
You said Captain Kriss in the northwest. Captain Kriss is the cap-
tain of the detectives.
Mr. Adams. I was thinking about Captain Feeley.
Senator O'Conor. Captain Kriss was captain of detectives.
Mr. Rice. I am talking about K-r-i-s-s.
Mr. Adams. I don't know him.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever discuss Captain Kriss with Sergeant But-
ler?
Mr. Adams. Not as I can recall.
Mr. Rice. Tell us the story about Baltimore Blinkey. You know
Baltimore Blinkey, don't you?
Mr. Adams. I just know him if I probably would see him, that is
all.
Mr. Rice. Tell us about the time that you or he had that trouble
with the car, somebody wanted his take.
Mr. Adams. With his car ?
Mr. Rice. Yes, the time the Pennsylvania car came.
Mr. Adams. That was the time of the bombing?
Mr. Rice. That is right. Tell us about that.
Mr. Adams. I remember I was walking out Madison Street, which
is East Baltimore.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Adams. Around ten or eleven hundred block. That car drove
up beside me. There were some garages there. There were no houses
in front where it approached me. Someone called me over to the car
and said somebody wanted to talk with me.
Mr. Rice. A white man ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir. It was all white men in it.
Mr. Rice. Pennsylvania plates on his car?
Mr. Adams. Whatever my testimony was in that case. It was Penn-
sylvania, I am pretty sure.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Adams. So this fellow steps out of his car and he calls me a
little away from the car and talks with me and tells me that he is
coming into Baltimore and he wants 5 percent. They were going to
take over and they wanted 5 percent of my take. I did not pay any
attention to him. I did not pay very close attention to what he was
saying, because I really was not concerned. I don't know why. I
just thought it was something that probably was not as serious as
it turned out to be. So I left and they said, "I will be in touch with
vou in a few days."
Mr. Rice. What kind of take ?
Mr. Adams. I guess he assumed that I understood what he was
talking about.
Mr. Rice. Did you know what he was talking about ?
Mr. Adams. I had an idea, but I didn't, as I recall it, ask him or
go into detail about what he meant with respect to 5 percent of what
take, because I wasn't concerned.
Mr. Rice. Did he mention numbers or horses?
Mr. Adams. As I recall it, he did not talk about anything. He just
said. "We are coming in and we want 5 percent of your take. We are
taking over Baltimore," or something like that. I did not think
26 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
anything of it. If I had, I would have taken down the license plate
of the car for some reason.
Mr. Rick. Yes.
Mr. Adams. So I left and probably — I don't know what date it was,
it was like on a Tuesday or Wednesday or could have been Thursday
of this week, and I didn't hear anything from anybody until the fol-
lowing Sunday — not that Sunday, but the following Sunday — that
week when my place was bombed.
Mr. Rice. This fellow said he wanted 5 percent. Did you tell him
"Yes" or "No"?
Mr. Adams. I just listened to him and said, "Yes, sir; yes, sir."
I don't know what 1 said.
Mr. Rice. Did you arrange to meet him again?
Mr. Adams. I did not arrange to meet him. They said they would
get in touch with mo.
Mr. Rice. Get in touch with you?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
( Senator Tobey entered the hearing.)
Mr. Adams. The following Sunday night, about 3 o'clock in the
morning, this explosion went off.
Mr. Rice. To bring Senator Tobey up to date, you said back a few
years ago, when you were walking along the sidewalk, a car drove up
and a man got out and came over and said — he was a white man. Did
he say he was part of the Philadelphia outfit?
Mr. Adams. 1 don't recall what outfit he said.
Mr. Rice. He just said they were taking over Baltimore and they
wanted 5 percent of your take?
Mr. Adams. They wanted 5 percent.
Mr. Rice. They would get in touch with you later?
Mr. Adams. I would hear from them. They would get in touch
with me. At that time I had a tavern at 2240 Druid Hill Avenue..
I had a tavern there. I didn't hear anything from them until the
following Sunday — not the Sunday after I was approached — Monday
morning, 3 o'clock in the morning, when this explosion went off. So>
after this explosion went off and the police department came in and
started to question about it, well the bartender in the place recalled
that someone there had come in and left a telephone number and he
just put it under the cash drawer and never said anything to me
about it. So we turned the telephone number over to the police de-
partment and it seemed that same night, right before the explosion,
an automobile with the lights off — the cruise car saw this car pull
off from my place and go up two blocks and turn down without their
lights on and cross the boulevard, which was North Avenue at Mad-
ison, so they stopped them a couple of blocks below there and ques-
tioned the two people who were in the car. One of them was this
fellow Fink.
Mr. Kick. He was Pdinkey Fink?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Was he in the first car the first day they talked to you
about t lie ."> percent '.
Mr. Adams. I think I recall that I saw him. I think that was in
my Statement. We have some kind of a clue there. I think that i-
true.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 27
Mr. Rice. You identified him, didn't you?
Mr. Adams. I think so.
After they let these fellows go, I think this explosion went off about
4 or 5 minutes later. Then they went back and picked up Fink right
away and then my bartender turned over the telephone number and
that wTas in reference to the Belair Market, or somewhere in that
section.
Mr. Rice. Whose phone was it ?
Mr. Adams. I don't recall whose telephone it was. I never saw
the number. It was left with my bartender. I think the police*
department checked it and the record would show it was down in that
section somewhere and near the section where I was approached, not
too far, the first time.
Mr. Rice. Did they have a trial on that '.
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir. They had a hearing and Fink was put under,
I think, bail, and that was pretty much the end of it.
Mr. Rice. They never convicted him, did they?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. What was the difference between the big number and
the night number?
Mr. Adams. I don't know the night number or the big number.
Mr. Rice. You don't know what the night number is?
Mr. Adams. Not the night number.
Mr. Rice. Don't they have a night number over there now ?
Mr. Adams. No; not that I know of.
Mr. Rice. Did they ever have a night number?
Mr. Adams. I think there was some time ago.
Mr. Rice. How did they arrive at the night number ?
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Rice. How about the day number ? How did they fix the day
number i How do they fix the day number now '.
Mr. Adams. You said how they fix it?
Mr. Rice. How does the number come up ? Where do they get it
from '. Let's say 372 was the number yesterday.
Mr. Adams. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Suppose 372 was the number yesterday, how would th*v
get it?
Mr. Adams. When I was in, you took it from the races.
Mr. Rice. From the total mutuel at the track ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Get it out of the paper ?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Have they stopped doing that?
Mr. Adams. Wouldn't know.
Mr. Rice. You say when you were in it, when was that?
Mr. Adams. I have been out of it now for some time.
Mr. Rice. How long?
Mr. Adams. More than a year.
Mr. Rice. How much more?
Mr. Adams. About 2 months more.
Mr. Rice. Two months more than a year?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. You got out of it around May of 1950?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
28 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Kick. About the time this committee started?
Mr. Adams. I do not know about the committee.
Mr. Bice. Do you know Don Blackburn and Roxbury, Joe Louis'
man \
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kick. Did you have any business relations with either one of
those ]
Mr. Adams. No. sir.
Mr. Kick. Sure about that?
Mr. Adams. Mr. Julius Black. Did you say Blackburn I
Mr. Kick. Wasn't that his name?
Mr. Adams. Blackburn was the trainer.
Senator Tobet. ''Chippy" was the name.
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. He is dead now.
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rick. Did you say you had business with those people?
Mr. Adams. Not with Mr. Blackburn or Mr. Roxbury. Mr. Julius
Black — 1 have had some business with him as far as a piece of property
was concerned.
Mr. Rick. What piece of property wTas that?
Mr. Adams. I bought a building in Chicago once, and he used to
handle it through his office, the management, at the time I owned it.
Mr. Rick. He handled the building?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mi-. Rick. What sort of building was it?
Mr. Adams. It was through his office that I bought it.
Mr. Rtck. What sort of building?
Mr. Adams. It was an apartment house.
Mr. Rice. Have you sold that?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any bank accounts outside of Baltimore?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any property outside of Baltimore?
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't have anything except the small house my
mother lives in.
Mr. Rick. Where is that ?
Mr. Adams. Winston-Salem, N. C. We purchased that about a
year ago.
Mr. Rick. Do you have any business interests outside of Baltimore,
other than this meat company?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Senator Tobet. What is your net worth, sir?
Mi\ Adams. I wouldn't know, sir.
Senator Tobet. AVho would know?
Mr. Adams. I don't know of anybody would know.
Senator Tobet. Keep your books?
Mr. Adams. Yes. sir.
Senato Tobet. What is you worth represented by — securities, prop-
erty, and money?
Mr. Adams. 1 would say T have some stocks.
Senator Tobet. What are they worth?
Mi. Adams. They are not stocks on the stock market. It is just
private corporations' stock in different things that I have explained
to them, and a real estate business.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 29
Senator Tobey. Are you worth half a million dollars?
Mr. Adams. Xo, sir; way below that.
Senator Tobey. Suppose you were lie fore a court and the court said
they wanted a statement of your net worth; how soon could you dig
that up for them — your assets and liabilities — and get a balance?
How long would it take you to do that?
Mr. Adams. I couldn't figure that up, Your Honor. I wouldn't
know how to go about it. I -wouldn't know what the value of one
thing or the other was, as far as my interest in those things are con-
cerned, because they haven't done too well at all. Most of the things
that I had some stocks in haven't done too well.
Senator Tobey. Do you keep considerable cash on hand?
Mr. Adams. Xo, sir.
Senator Tobey. Safe deposit vaults? Any cash?
Mr. Adams. Very little. I haven't been in there for more than
a, year and a half, probably longer than that, I guess.
Mr. Rice. Senator, we have instructed him to bring in his books
and records, including the Adams Realty, which is his main business.
Then we can take it up further.
Going back to the time you were in the numbers business before
May of 1950, last year, where was your headquarters? Where did
you operate from?
Mr. Adams. I didn't exactly have any headquarters. We just prob-
ably operated here today and another place tomorrow.
Mr. Rice. You were moving around '.
Mr. Adams. There wasn't much to my operation.
Mr. Rice. You had other men in there with you; didn't you?
Mr. Adams. No more than one.
Mr. Rice. Who was that one?
Mr. Adams. I said it wouldn't be any more than one.
Mr. Rice. Who was the one who was with you, if it was only one?
Mr. Adams. I say it wouldn't be any more than one.
Mr. Rice. You mean you were doing it by yourself?
Mr. Adams. More or less.
Mr. Rice. Yon mean you were writing numbers yourself? You
weren't writing numbers ? You were the lay-off man ; weren't you ?
Mr. Adams. I don't mean that. When you spoke about the big book
and the night book, I think you were a little mixed. Probably the
little book and the big book.
Mr. Rice. Straighten me out on that.
Mr. Adams. Yon have some fellows who take in the numbers.
They take play up to 25 cents. That is called the little book, which
we give the writers. They get less money from the writers for that
than they would from what probably you said was the big book. The
big book is a book that plays bet odds to the players.
Mr. Rice. Six to seven hundred to one, probably up to 800 ?
Mr. Adams. Probably so.
Mr. Rice. What did they pay on the big book when you quit ?
Mr. Adams. Seven to one.
Mr. Rice. Is that single action?
Mr. Adams. It would be 700 to 1.
Mr. Rice. On the three numbers ?
Mr. Adams. That is right.
85277— 51— pt. 17 3
30 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. How about the writer? What was his percentage?
Mr. Adams. There wouldn't be a writer directly involved in this. I
do not know if the writer got anything on that particular business or
not. because the way 1 got mine, more or less, would be from some of
these fellows who would take the little book from the writer. They
wrould get all the play.
Mr. Rice. They would turn it in to you, more or less?
Mr. Adams. No; they would more or less keep all the little play.
We had a line called the quarter. You had to pay 25 cents in order
to be on the big book.
Mr. Rice. \\ hat would be the smallest one you would take?
Mr. Adams. 25 cents.
Mr. Rice. You would take anything over 25 cents? You wouldn't
pay a percentage?
Mr. Adams. You wouldn't get dollar for dollar. You probably
have this man Mho would give you 80 or 85 cents for the dollar. With
the dollar you would gel a dollar's worth of play if you get Somebody
else that gives him something better. If you didn't meet that, you
wouldn't have the play at all. He had control of the play actually.
Mr. Rice. What would your total daily book be, the amount of ac-
tion you were handling a day, when you were in the field going full
blast?
Mr. Adams. I guess around close to a thousand dollars a day.
Mi-. Rice. $1,000 a day?
Mr. Adams. Around that, a little better sometimes.
Mr. Kick. Did you have a ticker? Yours was all numbers? You
didn't have any horse bets?
Mr. Adams. No, sir. I never had a horse bet in my life.
Mi-. Rice. That was all numbers, $1,000 a day. How many people
would be betting that in to you, so it wTould aggregate a thousand
dollars?
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't be able to tell that.
Mr. Rice. It would vary ?
Mr. Adams. I don't know. The way I would get it would be as if
you Mere a banker and you Mere keeping the little stuff and you would
give me your package of large stuff, because the writers write more
smaller stuff since they gei a percentage off that and naturally they
get more nickels and pennies and dimes in their plays than they would
quarter plays or more, so you Mould be the one who ordinarily would
have control of that.
Mi-. Rice. Hoav many people would you very likely have playing
in to you?
Mr. Adams. I believe probably ten.
Mr. Rice. Where would they find you to lay it in to. you, where
would t hey call you ? You would take it over the telephone?
Mr. Adams. Sometimes I would probably take some. You might
come around with it yourself.
Mr. Rice. AVho kept the records for you when you were running
thai operation?
Mr. Adams. I kept them.
Mr. Rice. You kept them yourself?
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Y<>u did all the bookkeeping?
Mi-. Adams. I had probably someone mIio helped me. I MTouldn't
say I did it all.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 31
Mr. Rice. Who would help you ?
Mr. Adams. I had one other person.
Mr. Rice. Who was that other person ?
Mr. Adams. You want me to give his name ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't like to do that.
Mr. Rice. Suppose we direct you to ?
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman directs you to answer the
question.
Mr. Adams. I would refuse to answer that on the ground that it
might incriminate me in my tax investigation.
Mr. Rice. How does the name of another person incriminate you
in your tax investigation ? This is somebody else we are talking about.
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Rice. You wouldn't know ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Is this other person a man or woman ?
Mr. Adams. I have the same answer. I would refuse to answer that
on the same ground.
Mr. Rice. I think, Mr. Chairman, the witness having opened the
door by indicating that there was another person, is compelled to
answer the question as to the identify of the person.
Senator Hunt. There isn't any way we can compel the witness to
answer. The Chair cannot understand how giving the name of an-
other person would incriminate the witness, on the ground or the
premise that you stated, your counsel stated in the original remarks,
due to the investigation of your income tax.
Do you care to state on what grounds you feel this would incriminate
you, in what manner ?
Mr. Adams. On the same ground that it might tend to incriminate
me as far as the income tax investigation is concerned.
Mr. Rogan. May I answer the question for him ?
Senator Hunt. Yes, you may.
Mr. Rogan. Senator, what we had in mind is, by reason of the
investigation being made of his income tax return, counsel's question
does not pertain to any particular year, his reference to somebody
may be to somebody who may have done business with him, and, by
reason of the divulging of that particular name, that would be a chain
in the link, perhaps, that could connect up a situation with respect
to how much business that man produced and gave to him.
The Chairman. I understood this particular name we are after is
the man who helped him keep the books.
Mr. Rogan. No, that was not my understanding as to the name
of the man who kept the books. It was the name of the man with
whom he did business.
Senator Hunt. The witness still refuses to answer; is that correct?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. One more question. You say you quit the business about
May of 1950. To whom did you turn over your numbers business?
Mr. Adams. Not to anyone.
Mr. Rice. You let it collapse ?
Mr. Adams. I wouldn't have anyone working for me. I wouldn't
have anybody to turn it over to. I was taking action from the fellows
who were giving it to me.
32 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. At the time you were taking action, did you lay off to any-
one, if you got too much on one number that you did not want to
hold, would you call someone to take that? Would you take any
bet you got ?
Mr. Adams. Youjilso had a limit.
Mr. Kick. What was your limit 1
Mr. Adams. Around a dollar.
Mi-. Rice. That doesn't make sense. You have a $1,000 book.
]\Ir. Adams. That is from one person.
Mr. Rice. That would make a thousand people.
Mr. Adams. Not that way. If you had nine or ten people you were
getting play from, if you had a dollar with each person and they were
fortunate enough to have the same.
Mr. Rice. What was the most you would take on any one number?
Mr. Adams. It would be a dollar to each person that was giving me
play.
Mr. Rice. A dollar limit on each number ?
Mr. Adams. Sometimes it might be a little more.
Mr. Rice. You never laid over to anybody?
Mr. Adams. I played some numbers, myself, a few. I played some
numbers.
Mr. Rice. When you placed them, would you place them out of
town ?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that?
Mr. Adams. I am positive about that.
Mr. Rick. When you wanted to place a number, you would place
more than a dollar, wouldn't you ? There wTas no point in you betting
less than a dollar, was there ?
Mr. Adams. If I would have, say 10, 12 people giving me and I
would wind up with each one — say 8 of them — having a dollar, or
something like that, that would be the number I would play to protect
myself.
Mr. Rice. You would lay over $4 and give that to someone else?
Mr. Adams. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Whom would you give that to?
Mr. Adams. There are plenty of people to give it to who work
for other people.
Mr. Rice. Can you remember any of those?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You can't remember any of those?
Mr. Adams. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Is it clear, Mr. Adams, that you have been directed to
bring in the hooks and records of the realty company which has your
own personal record '.
I Senator Tobey left the hearing.)
Mr. Rice. We are interested in your own personal records, Where
you say your telephone hills are paid out of, and so forth.
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. You are instructed to bring them in next Monday or
before nexl Monthly.
Mr. Adams. Yes, sir.
Senator Hi NT. Von are temporarily excused. Mr. Adams, hut still
under the subpena.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 33
Would the witness state his name, please ?
Mr. Fink. Julius Fink.
Senator Hunt. Will you stand, please, Mr. Fink, to be sworn ?
Mr. Fink. Yes.
Senator Hunt. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will
give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Fink. Yes, sir.
Senator Hunt. Counsel, if you will proceed.
TESTIMONY OF JULIUS FINK, BALTIMORE, MD.
Mr. Rice. You are not accompanied by counsel ?
Mr. Fink. No.
Mr. Rice. Where do you live?
Mr. Fink. 2631 East Monmouth Street.
Mr. Rice. And you are Julius Fink ?
Mr. Fink. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever been known by any other name ?
Mr. Fink. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. By the name of Blinky ?
Mr. Fink. Iused to blink my eyes when I was a young kid.
Mr. Rice. Have you been called Baltimore Blinky ?
Mr. Fink. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Anybody ever call you Blinky ?
Mr. Fink. I blink my eyes. That was why they called me Blinky.
I have no alias.
Mr. Rice. Where were you born ?
Mr. Fink. Baltimore, Md.
Mr. Rice. How long ago ?
Mr. Fink. Fifty-four years ago.
Mr. Rice. What business are you in, Mr. Fink?
Mr. Fink. Gentlemen. I have respect for all of you, and I stand
on my constitutional rights, and I won't answer any questions to you,
because it would tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Are you advised by counsel ?
Mr. Fink. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Are you under indictment ?
Mr. Fink. No, sir.
Air. Rice. With respect to the question, what business are you in,
you refuse to answer on the ground that it would incriminate you of
a Federal or State offense?
Mr. Fink. Tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Of a Federal or State offense?
Mr. Fink. I wouldn't answer any questions.
Mr. Rice. Do you have a specific offense in mind \
Mr. Fink. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You don't have any offense that you are afraid you might
be incriminated in connection with (
Mr. Fink. I never did anything. I don't know what I am here for.
Mr. Rice. You say you have never done anything.
Mr. Fink. I don't know why I am here.
Mr. Rice. You are under subpena.
Mr. Fink. I don't want to answer any questions.
34 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. We understand that you would rather not, but in some
cases, to help the congressional committee to follow the resolution
which formed it to inquire into certain matters, it is necessary to
inquire. We are more or less compelled to ask you some questions.
.Mr. Fink. Gentlemen, I have the highest respect for all of you,
the Senators, but 1 won'1 answer any questions.
Mr. Kick. In connect ion with the question, what business are you in,
you say yon don't know whether it would incriminate you of a Federal
or of a State offense?
Mr. Fink. 1 won't answer that.
Mr. Kick. Are yon under indictment?
Mr. Fink. No. sir. 1 do not know what for.
Mr. Rice. Arc yon under indictment '.
Mr. Fink. What for?
Mr. Rice. Are you under investigation?
Mr. Fink. I don't know what for.
Mr, Rice. Do you know whether you are under investigation?
Mr. Fink. I do not know.
Mr. Rice. You are not?
Mr. Fink. I do not think I am.
Mr. Rice. You are not under investigation.
In connection with the question as to what business you are in, do
you fear prosecution for a transaction which took place more than 10
years ago or less than 10 years ago?
Mr. Fink. I have nothing to hide. I just do not want to answer
any questions. I have nothing to hide. I did nothing wrong in my
life.
Mr. Rice. Try to keep your mind on the questions I am asking you.
This transaction you are afraid you are going to be prosecuted for
and which you are afraid will incriminate you
Mr. Fink. I am not educated. I have a third-grade education.
The best I can do is answer no questions.
Mr. Rice. Are you a married man ?
Mr. Fink. Yes, sir; married 15 years.
Mr. Rice. What is your wife's name?
Mr. Fink. Mary Fink.
Mr. Rice. So you do answer some questions ?
Mr. Fink. I will answer that, tell you my wife's name.
Mr. Rice. But there are some questions you don't want to answer?
Mr. Fink. I won't answer any from now on.
Mr. Rice. You won't answer any from now on ?
Mr. Fink. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Where did you go to grade school ?
Mr. Fink. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of Baltimore Blinky?
Mr. Fink. I refuse to answer that question. I answered that
before.
Mr. Rice. Do you know Willie Adams?
Mr. Fink. I refuse to answer that question. It might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. This committee is investigat ing organized crime in inter-
state commerce. Do you have any information involving other peo-
ple which would be of interest to this committee?
Mr. Fink. I refuse to answer that one.
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 35
Mr. Rice. I don't think I have any further questions.
Mr. Moser. Mr. Fink, you understand that we are here for the pur-
pose of obtaining information and not here to attack you and get you
into trouble, only to try to get information that will be helpful to
the committee in proposing legislation to the Congress. Do you un-
derstand that?
Mr. Fink. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you have any information with regard to organized
crime that would not incriminate you?
Mr. Fink. I have no information. I do not know nothing.
Mr. Moser. What is your answer to my question? I asked you if
you have any information regarding crime that would not incriminate
you.
Mr. Fink. I refuse to answer that because it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Senator Hunt. The witness is temporarily excused, but remains
under subpena.
Mr. Rice. Let the record indicate that the witnesses, George Gold-
berg and Ike Saperstein, did not respond when their names were
called.
Senator Hunt. What is your name, sir?
Mr. Reitz. Edward Reitz.
Senator Hunt. Will you raise your right hand ? Do you solemnly
swear in the testimony you will give this committee to tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Reitz. I do.
Mr. Rice. Are you accompanied by counsel ?
Mr. Kaplan. Harry I. Kaplan, 931 Munsey Building, Baltimore
2, Md.
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD WILLIAM REITZ, BALTIMORE, MD.,
ACCOMPANIED BY HARRY I. KAPLAN, ATTORNEY, BALTIMORE,
MD.
Mr. Rice. WTiat is your full name ?
Mr. Reitz. Edward William Reitz.
Mr. Rice. Where do you live?
Mr. Reitz. 830 Woodward Avenue.
Mr. Rice. Where is place of business?
Mr. Reitz. I doivt have a place of business.
Mr. Rice. What is your business?
Mr. Reitz. At present ? I refuse to answer that on the grounds that
it may incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Are you under indictment ?
Mr. Reitz. No.
Mr. Rice. Are you under investigation ?
Mr. Reitz. No.
Mr. Rice. In connection with the question, what business are you
in, do you take the position that it will incriminate you under a Fed-
eral or a State offense ?
Mr. Reitz. Federal.
Mr. Rice. Federal offense?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
36 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Kick. Do you have a particular Federal offense in mind?
Mr. Reitz. Probably income tax.
Mr. Kick. We are not interested in probably, we are interested in
exactly. You are afraid if you answer what business you are in, you
will incriminate yourself with regard to income tax?
Mr. Reitz. Thai is correct — income tax and State, too.
Mr. Rice. What State? You have a State crime in mind that you
fear prosecut ion on?
Mr. Reitz. Fear prosecution on both.
.Mr. Kick. In connection with the State crime that you have in mindT
did a transaction from which you fear prosecution occur more than 5
years ago?
Mr. ki.rr/. Yes.
Mr. Rice. More than 5 years ago? And you fear prosecution from
a crime that took place more than 5 years ago?
Mr. Kkitz. Five years ago, and then in 1948.
Mr. Rice. And then in 1948?
Mr. Kkitz. That is right.
Mr. Kick. The same crime again in 1948?
Mr. Kkitz. Forty-eight on bookmaking — conviction.
Mr. Rtce. You had a conviction in 1948?
Mr. Kkitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. You don't fear prosecution for an offense under which
you have been arrested and convicted, do you?
Mr. Reitz. Anyhow, regardless, I refuse to answer that question on
the ground of incrimination. My present occupation, I refuse to
answer.
Mr. Rice. In 1944, what business were you in ?
M i . Reitz. 1944, from January 1 to May 14, 1 worked at Bethlehem
Fairfield.
Air. Kick. What was your occupation at Bethlehem?
Mr. Kkitz. Painter.
Mr. Kick. What was your occupation in 1945?
Mr. Reitz. I worked on the water front, part of the year as a steve-
dore, ship feeler.
Mr. Rice. 1946?
Mr. Rkitz. I refuse to answer '46 and "47 up until November 11,
until December 1947, I refuse to answer on the ground that it will
incriminate me.
Mr. Kick. When do you start answering again? What date?
Mr. Kkitz. In 1947, I start answering from November until
December.
Mr. Rice. And what business were yon in in November and Decem-
ber l'H7f
Mr. Kkitz. T was a bartender at Anthony Lindon Tavern.
Mr. Kick, [s thai at 143 East West?
Mr. Kin/. Thai is right.
Mr. Rice. Yon were a bartender there ?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Kick. What compensation did you get as a bartender for that
month ?
Mr. Reitz. $50 a week.
Mr. Kick. Who hired von there?
Mr. Reitz. Ant honv Lindon.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 37
Mr. Rice. Is he the owner?
Mr. Reitz. He is the owner.
Mr. Rice. What became of that job?
Mr. Reitz. I worked there until October 1948 as bartender.
Mr. Rice. At $50 a week?
Mi'. Reitz. At $50 a week.
Mr. Rice. Did you do anything else besides bartending?
Mr. Reitz. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. After October 1948, what did you do?
Mr. Reitz. In 1948 I opened up in November, after I resigned as
bartender at Lindon's, a place that I thought that I could make a
little money in. That was in November of 1948. I stayed there until
I was raided on December 24.
Mr. Rice. Of 1948 ?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What was the name of that place?
Mr. Reitz. I opened in the back of a barroom.
Mr. Rice. What did you operate?
Mr. Reitz. What did I operate?
Mr. Rice. What did you operate?
Mr. Reitz. I took bets on horses.
Mr. Rice. Where was that located?
Mr. Reitz. 222 East Cross.
Mr. Rice. That was in back of a bar?
Mr. Reitz. The building in back of the bar was condemned. The
bar didn't have anything to do writh it. I wasn't a licensee. Lohman
was the licensee. It was separate from the building. The building
was torn down and after it was torn down, it was condemned and
torn down and another building was put up and I asked permission
from the man who owned the building to get a club established back
there. I didn't tell him what I was going to do with it. I stayed
there 1 month and was raided.
Mr. Rice. You were only there 1 month ?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Did you have a telephone?
Mr. Reitz. No telephone.
Mr. Rice. How did you take your bets?
Mr. Reitz. Howt did I take them? Took them from the customers
around the neighborhood.
Mr. Rice. How did you get the results?
Mr. Reitz. Over wire service.
Mr. Rice. You had a ticker?
Mr. Reitz. I had a teleflash.
Mr. Rice. Whom did you get that from ?
Mr. Reitz. World WTide.
Mr. Rice. World WTide News and Music?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Whom did you communicate with at Teleflash?
Mr. Reitz. McCushky.
Mr. Rice. How much did you pay for that?
Mr. Reitz. $40 a week. I only stayed a month.
Mr. Rice. How did you pay that ? Cash ?
Mr. Reitz. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Where did you pay that?
38 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rei iz. I paid it up at the office.
Mr. Rice. Went up to World Wide?
.Mi. Reitz. Yes.
Mr. Kick. Paid it in cash?
Mr. Reitz. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Gel a receipt?
Mr. Rettz. No.
Mr. Rice. You were only there a month?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. You had no phone?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Kick. What odds did you pay?
Mr. Reitz. What odds to my bettors?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Reitz. 18 and 4.
Mr. Rice. What was the Largest bet you would take?
Mr. Reitz. I was operating small.
Mr. Rick. What was the largest bet you would take?
Mr. Reitz. I never got no big bets there. I was only operating with
a neighborhood trade. I was trying to take a chance on it, to see if I
could make money.
Mr. Rice. Would you take as large a bet as they put in to }7ou?
Mr. Reitz. I didn't have those kinds of bettors. The largest bettor
I had was 7 to 5. I didn't take over 20 to 1 on a horse. Mostly, a dol-
lar or two.
Air. Rice. Suppose someone wanted to bet 20 on a horse that was
10 to 1 !
Mr. Reitz. I couldn't handle that.
Mr. Rice. You would just tell them you couldn't handle it?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Did you lay off any of it?
Mr. Reitz. No, anything I couldn't handle, I wouldn't accept.
Mr. Rice. You had no lay-off ?
Mr. Rkitz. No.
Mr. Rice. Anyone else have an interest in your business there?
Mr. Reitz. No one.
Mr. Rice. When you were raided what happened, other than the
law came in?
Mr. Reitz. What happened ?
Mr. Rice. Yes, were you convicted?
Mr. Rkitz. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What fine did you get ?
Mr. Reitz. I paid $1,000.
Mr. Rice. Did you do any time ?
Mr. Reitz. No, sir.
Air. Rick. What is that paper you are reading from?
Mr. Rkitz. I don't remember the places where I worked.
Mr. Rice. Is that your employment record?
Mr. Rkitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. After you paid your fine, what did you do ?
Mr. Rkitz. After I paid my fine?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Rkitz. Well, I paid my fine — from there on in
Mr. Rice. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 39
Mr. Reitz. I paid my fine and was convicted for bookmaking in
December. I paid my fine in 1949.
Mr. Rice. Then what business did you get into?
Mr. Reitz. From 1949 on \
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Reitz. I refuse to answer that on the ground that I may in-
criminate myself.
Mr. Rice. "Have you been in any business ?
Mr. Reitz. No.
Mr. Rice. You haven't been in any business?
Mr. Reitz. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. If you haven't been in any business, how would it in-
criminate vou?
Mr. Reitz. I still refuse to answer that on the ground that it will
incriminate me. It could be State charges.
Mr. Rice. Let's take it real slowly. You said you haven't been in
any business. You said that, didn't you ?
Mr. Reitz. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Rice. So, if you haven't been in any business, what possible
crime could that be outside of maybe vagrancy ?
Mr. Reitz. Maybe I don't want to be convicted of vagrancy. I
refuse to answer what I am doing from when I paid my fine and was
convicted in 1948. I refuse to testify on my occupation.
Mr. Rice. Have you had any source of income since 1949 ?
Mr. Reitz. I refuse to answer that on the ground that I may in-
criminate myself.
Mr. Rice. I would like to ask the Chair to direct the witness to
answer that question.
Senator Hunt. The witness will answer the question. Have you
had any income since 1949 ?
Mr. Reitz. Since 1949 ? Other than I tried to finagle myself, other
than going to the racetrack and betting on information on horses. I
was a bettor. No other income than that.
Mr. Rice. Your only incomes then, from 1949 have been as a result
of what you bet at the track ?
Air. Reitz. What I bet on information. I don't bet on every race.
Mr. Rice. What you bet on information?
Air. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What does that mean ?
Mr. Reitz. If I get a horse from the right source and I think I can
make a day's pay out of it, I bet it.
Mr. Rice. At the track ?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Is that the only place you bet ?
Mr. Reitz. I don't bet with bookmakers.
Mr. Rice. All the money you lived on for the last 2 years has been
won at the racetrack?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What do you say you have won at the racetrack during
the last 2 years?
Mr. Reitz. I refuse to answer on the ground that it may incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Rice. Is that your only source of income, what you won at the
racetracks ?
40 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What t racks arc you I alking about?
Mr. Reitz. I go to Delaware, Garden City, Atlantic City, all the
Maryland i racks, ( Jharlestown, any track close by. Sometimes I may
not U't on a horse tor 3 weeks.
.Mr. Kick. What tracks do you bel on in December and January?
Mi'. Reitz. Wherever they may be.
Mr. Rick. Where would that be?
Mr. Reitz. The closest track around.
Mr. Rice. What is that (
Mr. Kf.it/. Where do you mean?
Mr. Rick. What track in .January do you place your bets at?
Mr. Reitz. Do I place my bet '.
Mr. Rice. You syy vou go to these tracks and make these bets.
What t racks do you go to in January?
Mr. Reitz. I have to see what tracks are running. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. You are the one who is in the business.
Mr. Reitz. 1 am not in the business. I told you I might not have
a horse for 3 weeks. I don't go to the tracks every day.
Mr. Rice. How often do you go to the track ?
Mr. Reitz. Sometime I might go to the track for 3 weeks straight,
other times I might not go for 2 weeks.
Mr. Rick. Think of the months of January and February and
think of one track you went to in January or February of 1950.
Mr. Reitz. Whatever track was the closest to Maryland.
Mr. Rice. What would that be?
Mr. Reitz. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Rice. Yes you would, you are the one who goes to them.
Mr. Reitz. I would tell you if I knew. I do not remember.
Mr. Rice. I will ask the Chair to direct the witness to answer what
tracks he has made bets at in January and February 1951.
Senator Hunt. Will the witness
Mr. Reitz. I do not remember. How can I answer? If I looked
at a chart, I could tell you. If I get a chart of where the horses are
running, I would tell you. I would go to the nearest track.
Mr. Rice. What is the furthest track you ever went to ?
Mr. Reitz. Furthest track?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Rkitz. Ilialeah.
Mr. Rick. When did you go there?
Mr. Rkitz. In Hialeah?
Mr. Rick. Yes.
Mr. Rkitz. I went to Hialeah in January 1947.
Mr. Rice. Have you been there since?
Mr. Reitz. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Where do you make your bets in January and February?
They are only running in Hialeah or in California tracks?
Mr. Rkitz. In January and February?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Reitz. Where do I make them ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Rkitz. T try to make a day's pay, that is all.
Mr. Rick. Where do you make your day's pay?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 41
Mr. Reitz. "Where do I make it?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Reitz. If I see a horse I might go and shoot a little crap and
make a day's pay. Anyway, I can make a day's pay, I do it.
Mr. Rice. Do yon have an income from shooting crap ?
Mr. Reitz. No.
Mr. Rice. Then you do not make a day's pay?
Mr. Reitz. I made a little money at it.
Mr. Rice. Have you made any money in 1949 and 1950 in shooting
crap ?
Mr. Reitz. I refuse to answer that on the grounds that I may in-
criminate myself.
Mr. Rice. All right, have you made any bets on any tracks in
January and February 1951?
Mr. Reitz. I think we went all through that.
Mr. Rice. Yes, but we haven't had any answer.
Mr. Reitz. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Rice. You are refusing now to say whether you made any bets
at any tracks in January and February 1951 \
Mr. Reitz. I refuse to discuss my livelihood from my conviction
on.
Mr. Rice. You have opened the door. You have discussed your
livelihood and made some money at the tracks, so you said.
Mr. Reitz. I don't say it was a livelihood. I made some money
betting on horses.
Mr. Rice. In January and February 1951, the winter months, tell
us what tracks you made bets at during those months.
Mi-. Reitz. As far as I know, I don't remember. I may not have
made a bet at any of them.
Mr. Rice. You think maybe you did not make any bets during
January and February?
Mr. Reitz. Maybe I didn't.
Mr. RiCE.What is the answer?
Mr. Reitz. I don't remember. If I had a chart, maybe I could tell
you.
Mr. Rice. Could you keep any books?
Mr. Reitz. I could keep my books on a matchbox.
Mr. Rice. Is that the way you kept books?
Mr. Reitz. What do I have to keep books for ? I am in no business.
Mr. Rice. You pay taxes, don't you?
Mr. Reitz. Pay taxes?
Mr. Rice. Yes."
Mr. Reitz. You have the records, you can see whether I pay taxes.
Mr. Rice. Do you pay taxes?
Mr. Reitz. I pay taxes when I think I made money.
Mr. Rice. How about when you have money \
Mr. Reitz. When I keep my matchbox book.
Mr. Rice. Where is your matchbox book?
Mr. Reitz. If I win $50 a day, I put it on the matchbox.
Mr. Rice. Do you have your matchbox with von (
Mr. Reitz. No.
Mr. Rice. Where is your matchbox?
Mr. Reitz. I have it at home. I know when I am ahead every
quarter.
42 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. In connection with the subpena that was served on you, it
culled lor you to bring your records.
Mr. Rkitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Have you brought those with you ?
Mr. Reitz. I have my records as far as I have any. Is there any
records t here '. 1 have the deeds. What records would you want?
Mr. Rick. The records were recited in the subpena.
Mr. Reitz. What would they be?
Mr. Rice. The copies of your Federal tax returns.
Mr. Rkitz. Yes; we have that.
Mr. Rice. How much education have you had?
Mr. Reitz. I just graduated from the eighth grade in grammar
school.
Mr. Rice. You read and write?
Mr. Reitz. Oh, yes.
Mr. Rick. Whereabouts in your house do you keep your matchbox
that has the income on it?
Mr. Rkitz. Whereabouts in the house?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Reitz. I have it with other securities in the house.
Mr. Rice. Whereabouts?
Mr. Reitz. In my house.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Reitz. I have it at home in my house.
Mr. Rice. In your desk?
Mr. Reitz. I don't have a desk.
Mr. Rice. In a wall safe?
Mr. Reitz. In a drawer.
Mr. Rice. In a drawer in what ?
Mr. Reitz. In a, drawer.
Mr. Rice. What drawer?
Mr. Reitz. A bureau drawer.
Mr. Rice. In your bedroom ?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. In your bureau drawer in your bedroom, do you have the
matchbox for 1949?
Mr. Reitz. I don't care to answer anything from my conviction on.
I don't care to answer it on the ground that it may incriminate me
from 1949 on.
Mr. Rice. It is difficult to distinguish between your answer to some
of these and others. You have indicated you have a matchbox. You
are talking about a matchbox.
Mr. Reitz. You asked me about books. I am not talking about a
matchbox from 1949. You asked me about books.
Senator Hunt. Just answer the question, please, don't argue about
the question asked by the counsel. If you don't care to answer just
say you don't care to answer it, but let's not get into an argument.
Mr. Rkk. Maybe we can get at it this way. At the end of the year
L949, there come- a time when you have to make up a Federal tax
return and tell them how much money you made (luring the year.
Where do you get the figure that you put on that tax return?
Mi-. Kin/.. 1 don't care to answer that question on the ground that
it may incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Do you keep any records ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 43
Mr. Reitz. Do I keep records ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Reitz. From 1949, on, you mean?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Reitz. No, I do not care to answer that question.
Mr. Rice. Do you keep records?
Mr. Reitz. I say, I do not care to answer that on the grounds of in-
criminating myself.
Mr. Rice. You think the keeping of records may incriminate you ?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. How about for the year 1950 ? How do you arrive at the
amount of income you paid in 1950? Do you have a record of that?
Mr. Reitz. I don't care to answer that.
Mr. Rice. How do you arrive at the figure you put on your tax
return?
Mr. Reitz. I don't care to answer that question.
Mr. Rice. Do you guess that ?
Mr. Reitz. I don't care to answer that question.
Mr. Rice. Do you have a basis for that figure ?
Mr. Reitz. I do not care to answer on the ground of incriminating
myself. I do not want to answer it.
Mr. Rice. Let me see what records you brought in response to the
subpena.
I have here a copy of the Federal tax return for 1948 in which he
indicates, self-employed, commissions $1,200, and income from tavern
$2,000. The commissions vou are talking about, is that from your
book?
(Senator O'Conor left the hearing.)
Mr. Reitz. I did not get the question.
Mr. Rice. In 1948, the year you were arrested, you have here, com-
missions $1,200; is that what you mean from your book?
Mr. Reitz. In 1948, if I have it down, it must be so.
Mr. Rice. In 1949 vou have commissions, $4,420.
Mr. Reitz. In 19491
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Reitz. I have that down there ?
Mr. Rice. In 1949 — Edward and Margaret Reitz — that is your wife's
name?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. You have your income listed as commissions, self-em-
ployed, $4,420.
Mr. Reitz. You are speaking of 1949?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Reitz. I don't care to answer that.
Mr. Rice. Are those the commissions that are the same as the com-
missions made in 1948?
Mr. Reitz. I refuse to answer those questions from 1949 on, on the
chance that it will incriminate me.
Mr. Ric*. 1950, you have commissions, self-employed, $4,960. What
commissions are you talking about there?
Mr. Reitz. I refuse to answer that on the ground that it may
incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Do you have a bank account ?
Mr. Reitz. I have $50 left in the bank.
44 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Kick. What bank is that?
Mr. Reitz. That would be Providence Savings Bank of Baltimore.
Mr. Rice. Is it in your name?
Mr. Reitz. That is in both names, my wife's and mine.
Mr. Rice. Do you have a checking account?
Mr. Reitz. No, sir.
Mr. Rick. Savings account?
Mr. Reitz. Other than this $50.15 balance.
Mr. Rice. What type of account is it ?
Mr. Reitz. It is a savings bank of Baltimore — savings account.
Mr. Rice. How long have you had that account ?
Mr. Reitz. That is not my account.
Mr. Rice. You and your wife's account?
Mr. Reitz. My name was added to that account. That is my wife's
account.
Mr. Rice. When? Is that her maiden name, Stark?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. When did you name go on the account, Mr. Reitz ?
Mr. Reitz. My name went on the account shortly after we were
married in 1946.
Mr. Rice. So your name went on in 1946?
Mr. Reitz. Latter part of 1946.
Mr. Rick. Referring to the year 1949, I see that the accounts paid
on February 8, 1949, interest in the amount of $5.85 and on February
again $5.82 interest. I don't see anything in the copy of your tax
return which indicates your income from that interest. How do you
account for that?
Mr. Reitz. What year is that?
Mr. Rice. 1949.
Mr. Reitz. I refuse to answer that on the ground it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Rice. The only thing I see here is commissions. Do you con-
sider interest a commission?
Mr. Reitz. What year?
Mr. Rice. 1949.
Mr. Reitz. I refuse to answer those questions in 1949 on the ground
that it would incriminate me.
M r. Rice. Have you reported all your income for the year 1949 ?
Mr. Reitz. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Rice. What properties do you own, Mr. Reitz? Do you have
a list of them there?
Mr. Reitz. Yes.
Mr. Rice. I wonder if we might see the list?
Mr. Reitz. Sure.
Mr. Kick. I wonder if you might have this exhibited for the record?
] take it you prepared it for this purpose?
Mr. Reitz. No: I didn't.
Mr. Rice. Do you have a copy?
Mi-. Kaplan. Yes. I suggest, however, that you use it for the
purpose of examination. I only made it up as a memorandum. I
would prefer you do that than use it as an exhibit in evidence.
Mi. Km i . We have a statement here called "Net worth statement."
Mr. Reitz. No. sir.
Mr. Kic,.. What is thai I
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 45
Air. Reitz. That is my net worth, including cash and property and
automobile and everything.
Mr. Rice. As of when ?
Mr. Reitz. As of now.
Mr. Rice. As of the moment ?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. For what purpose did you prepare this?
Mr. Reitz. I just had it for the records.
Mr. Rice. When was it prepared (
Mr. Reitz. When was this prepared?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Reitz. Since I have engaged my attorney.
Mr. Rice. Was it prepared at his office ?
Mr. Reitz. That was in his office.
Mr. Rice. Did you supply the information for it?
Mr. Reitz. We got the information from our rough records.
Mr. Rice. Is this since you have been served with a subpena by this
committee ?
Mr. Reitz. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And it represents the property that you own? There is
no other property that you own but what is on there?
Mr. Reitz. That is all the property.
Mr. Rice. I think we could receive this and make a copy and
return it.
Mr. Katlan. That is all right, I have a copy.
Senator Hunt. We will accept that as exhibit A.
(The list referred to was marked "Exhibit A" and is on file with
the special committee.)
(Senator O'Conor returned to the hearing.)
Senator Hunt. The witness is temporarily dismissed, but will re-
main under subpena, unless the witness or counsel has some further
statement to make.
Mr. Kaplan. We have nothing further, sir.
Senator Hunt. You are excused for the time being.
Will you raise your right hand, Mr. Aversa?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Senator Hunt. Do you solemnly swear, in the testimony you will
give before this committee, to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Aversa. I do.
Senator Hunt. For the record, you have two gentlemen with you;
will they please identify themselves?
Mr. Crain. I am Bennett Crain, and this is Robert Hawkins, coun-
sel for Mr. Aversa.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS JOSEPH AVERSA, BALTIMORE, MD.,
ACCOMPANIED BY BENNETT CRAIN AND ROBERT HAWKINS,
ATTORNEYS, BALTIMORE, MD.
Mr. Rice. What is your full name?
Mr. Aversa. Thomas Joseph Aversa.
Mr. Rice. Where do you live?
Mr. Aversa. 403 Marlowe Road.
8527" — 51— pt. 17 4
46 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. Your wife is Bertha?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Where is your place of business, Mr. Aversa?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it may incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Did you understand the question?
Mr. Aversa. You asked, where is my place of business.
Mr. Rice. Where is your place of business?
Mr. Aversa. Place of business is 934 North Charles Street, the
Chanticleer.
Mr. Rice. That is a club?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. A night club?
Mr. Aversa. That is right.
Mr. Rick. Are you the owner of that place?
Mr. Aversa. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You are not the owner ?
Mr. Aversa. I am part owner.
Mr. Rice. You are part owner ?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What part do you own ?
Mr. xVversa. I own 50 percent of the stock.
Mr. Rice. Is it a corporation?
Mr. Aversa. A corporation.
Mr. Rice. What is the name of the corporation?
Mr. Aversa. I think it is the Eager — —
Mr. Rice. How do you spell that?
Mr. Aversa. Or the New Chanticleer, Inc.
Mr. Rice. Who are the officers of that corporation?
Mr. Aversa. Harry D. Miller.
Mr. Rice. Harry D. Miller?
Mr. Aversa. Harry D. Miller.
Mr. Rice. Where does he live or where is his place of business?
Mr. A versa. His place of business is with me.
Mr. Rice. Where does he live?
Mr. Aversa. I don't know his address right now.
Mr. Rice. Does he live in a house or apartment ?
Mr. Aversa. He lives in a home.
Mr. Rice. He is the president?
Mr. Aversa. He is the president.
Mr. Rice. Who are the other officers?
Mr. Aversa. Michael Goldstein.
Mr. Rice. Michael Goldstein?
Mr. Aversa. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What business?
Mr. Aversa. He manages the club.
Mr. Rice. He manages the club?
Mr. Aversa. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Where does lie live?
M p. A \ brs \. He lives somewhere on Loyola Southway.
Mi. Rice. What officer is he?
Mr. Aversa. I don't know.
Mr. Kmk. is he vice president?
Mr. Aversa. I think I am the vice president.
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 47
Mr. Rice. Don't you know ?
Mr. Aversa. It has been several years, 7 or 8 years since we had it,
and I haven't paid much attention to it.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any corporate meetings? Do you have
any meetings of the corporation?
Mr. Aversa. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You don't have any meetings of the corporation ?
Mr. Aversa. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Who is the secretary?
Mr. Aversa. He could possibly be the secretary.
Mr. Rice. Who can ?
Mr. Aversa. Mr. Goldstein.
Mr. Rice. Mr. Goldstein could be?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Who keeps the books and records for the corporation?
Mr. Aversa. Mr. Henry Hyman is our auditor.
Mr. Rice. Mr. Henry Herman ?
Mr. Aversa. Hyman.
Mr. Rice. How do you spell that ?
Mr. Aversa. H-y-m-a-n.
Mr. Rice. Where do you find him ?
Mr. Aversa. He has an office. You can locate him through the
'Chanticleer. You won't have any trouble.
Mr. Rice. Where is his office?
Mr. Aversa. I don't know offhand.
Mr. Rice. Is he a certified public accountant?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. He keeps all the books and records ?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. He doesn't come up every day ?
Mr. Aversa. He comes there whenever it is necessary.
Mr. Rice. Who keeps the daily records ?
Mr. Aversa. The place does.
Mr. Rice. What is the name of the person in the place who keeps
the daily records?
Mr. Aversa. The secretary, you mean?
Mr. Rice. You have so much income in there each day. You have
a cash register there, don't you ?
Mr. Aversa. Yes. We have an office girl.
Mr. Rice. She keeps the daily books and turns them over to Mr.
Hyman?
Mr. Aversa. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What is her name ?
Mr. Aversa. Rose Pearlman.
Mr. Rice. Your investment is how much in the Chanticleer?
Mr. Aversa. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. How much ? Fifty percent ?
Mr. Aversa. Fifty percent.
Mr. Rice. Who owns the other 50 percent?
Mr. Aversa. Harry Miller.
Mr. Rice. How about Miller I Does he own stock?
Mr. Aversa. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Can you be an officer without owning stock? Are you
• fellows also directors ? Are you a director %
48 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Aversa. It must be so. It must be a legal term.
Mi. Rice. What Lawyer handles the corporation?
Mr. A.VERSA. Emanuel Gorfine.
Mr. Rice. Who keeps fche corporate records as distinguished from
your accounting records \
Mr. Aversa. What do you mean?
Mr. Rice. For example, your certificate of incorporation and your
stock book, stock transfer hook, and minutes of the meetings?
Mr. Avkksa. 1 don't think I understand the question.
Mr. Kick. Who keeps your corporate records, your minutes and
things like that, of the meetings?
Mr. Avkksa. I would say. Mr. Hyman does.
Mr. Kick. Mr. Hyman, the accountant?
Mr. Avkksa. That is right.
Mr. Rice. You don't know, do you?
Mr. Avkksa. T am not certain, but I feel that is about the only
guy that could keep them, the accountant.
Mr. Rick. I have a record here which apparently is in the nature of
a net worth statement which says that in 1944 there was $35,000 in-
vested in the New Chanticleer; is that right?
Mr. Avkksa. Possibly, if you have it there.
Mr. Kick. How much did you invest?
Mr. Avkksa. Just what you have there.
Mr. Kick. How much did you invest?
Mr. Avkksa. I have no idea. You have the right figure.
Mr. Kick. Don't you know how much you have in there?
Mr. Avkksa. You have it in there.
Mr. Kick. This says $35,000. Don't you know independent of this?
Senator Hunt. Won't you answer the questions instead of baiting
the counsel? He asked you a question. Don't answer, "You have it
there." If you know, say you know. If you don't know, say so.
Mr. A. versa. I don't know if we put any more money to it.
Mr. Kick. Whom do you mean by "we"?
Mr. Avkksa. My partner and I.
Mr. Kick. Since yon put up your original investment, have you put
any more money in it?
Mr. Avkksa. I don't know.
Mr. Kick. I have here a long sheet of paper with your name and
your wife's name at the to]) and various years. Do you know what
that is?
Mr. Aversa. I don't follow the question.
Mr. Rice. Do you know what the paper represents, what are those
figures \
Mr. A\kks\. T imagine those are my tax returns.
Mr. Kick. Those are not your tax returns. This is a paper listing.
apparently, interests yon have, cash in the bank, cash On hand, savings
account. Take a look at it. Maybe }Tou can help him, counsel. It
look- like a net worth statement.
Mr. Hawkins. That is what it is. It was prepared by the ac-
countant.
Mr. RlCE. Yes. sir.
Hr. Hawkins. At his request.
Mi'. Rice. Do you know what it is. Mr. Witness?
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 49
Mr. Aversa. Tr is a net worth statement from what I can see of it.
Mr. Rice. The figures on there, were they supplied by you?
Mr. Crain. That is the only place he could have gotten them.
Mr. Aversa. I was being investigated by the Internal Revenue.
Mr. Eice. When was this?
Mr. Aversa. This was in the past 6 or 8 months.
Mr. Rice. In what years where they interested?
Mr. Aversa. Those are the years they were interested in, I think.
Mr. Rice. They are the years 1943 to 1949?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. That was all?
Mr. Aversa. 1 dug up what stuff I could for them.
Mr. Rice. And this is what you dug up and this is the result of what
you dug up ?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. So this is a net worth statement, at least as of the year
1949, showing total assets $102,095.48 from cash in bank, cash on
hand, savings accounts. "Where is that savings account?
Mr. Aversa. Calvert Bank.
Mr. Rice. In your name?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Xotes receivable, series E bonds, investments in New
Chanticleer, real estate on Cross Street, Elimony Avenue, Raymond,
Darling and your residence on Marlowe, and your automobile. Have
you acquired any additional assets in the year 1950 ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
I may incriminate myself.
Mr. Rice. We are talking about 1950. The tax people were only
interested up to 1949. Have you acquired any additional assets in
1950 ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Rice. Are you under indictment?
Mr. Aversa. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Declining to answer, do you fear a prosecution for a
Federal or State offense?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question on the ground that
it may incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Do you fear prosecution for a transaction involving your-
self or others ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question on the ground that
it may incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. The transaction from which you fear prosecution, did it
occur more than 5 years ago ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question on the ground that it
may incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. I see back here in 1946 that you had some income from
racing, $7,000. What does that mean?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question on the ground that it
may incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. I see in 1948 vou had income from speculations on races
of $16,255. What do you mean by that ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question on the ground that it
may incriminate me.
50 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. I see you have speculations on gambling in the same year
in tin' amount of $8,750. What is that from \
Mr. A\ i:i;sa. 1 decline to answer that question on the ground that it
may incriminate me.
Mr. Bice. What gambling are you talking about?
Senator Hunt. The counsel asked you a question.
Mr. Rice. What gambling arc you talking about? This is on your
tax returns.
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question on the ground that
it may incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. I think I will ask the Chair to direct you to answer
that quest ion. You understand this is on your tax return, speculations
on gambling $9,750. What do you mean by gambling?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question on the ground that
it may incriminate me.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question; what is the meaning of the word "gambling" on your
tax return in the amount of $9,750 ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question on the ground that
it may incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. In 1950 we find speculations on races $16,340. What
do you mean by '"speculation on races" ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question on the ground that it
may incriminate me.
Mr. Hawkins. Excuse me, Counsel. I do not believe you are read-
ing from the same paper, are you ?
Mr. Rice. I am not reading from his tax return. I am reading from
a recapitulation taken from the tax return.
Mr. Hawkins. I didn't think there was anything on the paper that
we submitted to the committee for 1950. I may be mistaken about
that. I just wanted to keep it straight.
Mr. Rice. 1950. speculations on races, $10,000. It was indicated he
felt he was under investigation for the year 1949, but, frankly, Coun-
sel, I see no reason for refusing to answer for the year 1950. Do you
have any other reason, any special circumstances?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer.
Senator Hunt. You decline to answer that question?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question on the ground that it
may incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. I have here a paper headed, "Thomas J. Aversa," and ask
you if you recognize that. Do you recognize that?
Senator Hunt. Counsel may advise the witness.
Mr. Crain. I have never seen it.
Mr. Hawkins. I have not either. I do not know where it came from.
Have you ever seen it before?
Mr. Aversa. 1 haven't seen it before.
Mr. Rick. It may help you to remember if I suggest that it was
among the papers submitted in response to a subpena served on you.
Mr. ( i; \in. I don't think so.
Mr. Hawkins. This may have been a rearrangement of some other
figure-.
Mr. Rice. A recapitulation.
Mr. Hawkins. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 51
Mr. Rice. Let's get at it this way. In the column on the left the
years from 1945 to 1950 are indicated along with gross figures. In the
next column, net figures. Do you recognize those figures as being
figures relating to your income?
Mr. Hawkins. 1 assume you mean those are net and gross income.
Mr. Rice. I take it to be that.
Mr. Chain. The papers we submitted were a large sheet that you
have, plus his income-tax returns. Without his having a chance to go
over that and check back the figures
Mr. Hawkins. I do not see how he can know the answers.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever had any income from the New Chanticleer ?
Has it ever paid you anything? Have you ever received a salary,,
dividends?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Did you receive a figure of $8,000 in 1945 ?
Mr. Aversa. Perhaps.
Mr. Rice. Did you ?
Mr. Aversa. Evidently so, if it is there. My reports will show that,,
my tax returns will show that.
Mr. Rice. How about the New York Novelty Co. ? Have you had
income from the New York Novelty Co.?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Rice. Suppose your tax returns showed that you have?
Mr. Aversa. I have an income from — I didn't get the question.
"Would you repeat the question ?
Mr. Rice. Suppose your tax return showed you had an income from
the New York Novelty Co., would you then admit you had income
from the New York Novelty Co. ?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Have you had income from the New York Novelty Co. ?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Ever?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What was the nature of the business of the New York
Novelty Co.?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that on the ground that it may
incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. You have here, in 1947, rents from store front. Do you
own a store front ?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. WTtere is that located?
Mr. Aversa. 20 East Cross Street.
Mr. Rice. What business is in that store ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that on the ground that it might
incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Do you own the building?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you lease the building to someone? Do you lease
the building on East Cross to someone? Do you lease that building
to someone ?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. To whom do you lease it?
Mr. Aversa. Edward J. Jenkins.
52 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice, is he sometimes called "Wop" Jenkins?
Mr. A versa. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Rice. Do you know?
Mr. Aversa. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. What business is Jenkins in?
.Mi. Aversa. He has a tavern there.
Mr. Kick. Tic has a tavern? What are the arrangements of the
lease '. I ><» you have a written lease?
Mr. Aversa. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. An oral lease? What are the arrangements?
Mr. Aversa. About $75 a month.
Mr. Kick. For the whole tavern?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. How does he pay that?
Mr. Hawkins. Do you mean by cash or check?
Mr. Kick. Cash or check?
Mr. Aversa. Cash.
Mr. Rick. To whom does he pay it?
Mr. Aversa. To me.
Mr. Rice. Do you give him a receipt?
Mr. Aversa. No.
Mr. Rice. Is he current, up to date in his payments?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Is that the rental?
Mr. Aversa. I think it is $75.
Mr. Rice. Don't you know?
Mr. Aversa. It is $75 at the present. At one time I was charging
him $50.
Mr. Rice. You are the landlord, though?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rick. What do you do with the $75 when you get it?
Mr. Aversa. What do I do with it ?
Mr. Rice. Yes. Do you put it in your bank?
Mr. Aversa. I put it in my bank or in my pocket.
Mr. Rick. Who keeps the record of the income from the rent that
Mr. Jenkins pays?
Mr. A\ ersa. That shows up by the year.
Mr. Rice. You don't have a record of that?
Mr. Aversa. No.
Mr. Rick. In making up your tax return at the end of the year,
how do you know how much you collected that way?
Mr. Aversa. I know by how many months he has been there.
Mr. Rick. You just multiply it by lw2? Do you keep any records
of that income that goes into your bank account and into your pocket?
Do you keep any books?
Mr. Avkksa. T don't keep any records.
Mr. Rice. You don '1 keep books on that at all ? What do you mean
by "'specula! ions on races"?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it may incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Do you receive any income from speculations on races?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it may incriminate me.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 53
Mr. Rick. In connection with the place at 20 East Cross Street, that
is Jenkins' place, isn't it?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir; it is under the name of Jenkins.
Mr. Rice. Who got the telephone in there, who arranged for the
telephone ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it may incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Let's see if we understand that or not. Yon are refusing
to answer about who got the telephone because it may incriminate you.
Is there a telephone in there?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. In whose name is it?
Mr. Aversa. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Rice. You don't know whose name it is?
Mr. Aversa. No.
Mr. Rice. Do you know the number ?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is the number ?
Mr. Aversa. Lexington 9-0005. It is a pay station.
Mr. Rice. A pay station ?
Mr. Aversa. A pay station.
Mr. Rice. You don't know who arranged for that telephone in
there?
Mr. Aversa. To my knowledge. I don't.
Mr. Rice. Why do you think that would incriminate you, then?
Have you ever heard of Tom Moore ?
Do you know a Tom Moore ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it might incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Do you know Tom Moore?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question on the ground that it
might incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Have you transacted any business with the Howard
Sports News?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it may incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. I would like to ask the Chair to direct the witness to
answer that question.
Senator Hunt. Have yon transacted any business with Howard
Sports News? I direct the witness to answer the question, "Yes" or
"No."
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question.
Senator Hunt. We will temporarily excuse the witness, and he
will remain subject to the subpena.
(Whereupon, at 1 p. m., the committee recessed to reconvene at 2 :30
p. m. the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
i Whereupon, the committee reconvened at 2 : :>0 p. m., Senator Alex-
ander Wiley presiding.)
54 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Wiley. We will call Mr. Willis M. King.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIS M. (BUZZ) KING, BALTIMORE, MD.,
ACCOMPANIED BY WILLIAM GREENFELD, ATTORNEY, BALTI-
MORE, MD.
Senator Wiley. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you will
give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. King. I do.
Mr. ( iui.i:\ feld. Before you start interrogation, Mr. King employed
me lasl Friday and I haven't had sufficient time to go into the matter,
with regard to all I wanted to check on t he question. For that reason
I would like to have this postponed for a reasonable length of time.
Mr. M< »si.i;. Let us get the witness' name and address and your name
and address.
Mr. King. Willis M. King, 1?>01 Lakeside Avenue.
Mr. Moser. Is that your residence?
Mr. King. Yes.
Mr. Moser. What is your name ?
Mr. Greenfeld. William Greenfeld.
The Chairman. I might say to my colleague that Judge Greenfeld
is a very splendid member of the Baltimore bar. He enjoys a very
good reputation.
Mr. Greenfeld. Thank you, sir. 600 Court Square Building.
Mr. Moser. I would like to say, of course, you understand. Judge,
the purpose of our hearing is not to attack anybody, though some
people have gotten that impression. Our purpose is to get informa-
tion for the purpose of legislation. We are not laying for Mr. King.
We are trying to talk to him because we think perhaps he knows
things that will be helpful in adopting proper legislation.
You said you wanted to look up some law and so forth. Is that on
the question of privilege?
Mr. Greenfeld. I don't know. I haven't had sufficient time to go
into the matter. I want to go into the matter. Maybe he will co-
operate. I cannot answer at this time.
I would like to talk to Mr. King. I haven't had sufficient oppor-
tunity. This was something that came along just in the last couple
of days and then the week end intervened.
I do not know that any harm can be done. I am always willing to
help enact legislat ion for the benefit of the committee.
For those various reasons I ask the postponement of the hearing of
Mr. King.
Mr. Moser. Mi-. King, is it your inclination to cooperate with the
committee and furnish ns with information, or are you inclined to
claim privilege, or don't you know yet?
Mr. Grei nfeld. If yon will bear with me for a moment, that is a
right difficull question for Mr. King to answer until I have had really
an opportunity to go into detail with him on certain things that I
think I have to learn myself. I am going to have to be the one in
the final analysis to advise him. and at this moment I just can't do it.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 55
Senator O'Conor has known me well up to today and if it is a
matter of cooperation as far as legislation is concerned, 1 am sure I
will be the last one to ever stand in its way.
Mr. Moser. How much time were you thinking of?
.Ml'. ( iKKENFELD. I will leave that to VOU.
Mr. Moser. You are the one who wants the time.
Mr. Greenfeld. I would think a week or so. I don't want an un-
reasonable length of time.
Senator Wiley. When was he subpenaed?
Mr. Moser. The 16th of June.
Senator Wiley. He has had 2 weeks, then.
Mr. Greenfeld. He hasn't had 2 weeks exactly. He wasn't able to
secure counsel and did not secure counsel until last Friday, Senator.
Mr. Moser. He was told on Friday to be here today, I understand.
We are inclined to say a week is all right. A week from Friday.
Mr. Greenfeld. That will be all right.
Thank you very much, gentlemen.
Mr. Rice. Neither Sapperstein nor Goldberg answer.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN JOSEPH MADDOCK, LAUREL, MD., AC-
COMPANIED BY T. EDWARD O'CONNELL, ATTORNEY, WASH-
INGTON, D. C.
Senator Hunt. Are you Mr. Joseph Maddock ?
Mr. Maddock. John Joseph.
Senator Hunt. Will you stand and be sworn, Mr. Maddock, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give this com-
mittee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Maddock. I do.
Mr. Rice. Where do you live, Mr. Maddock ?
Mr. Maddock. In Laurel, Md.
Mr. Rice. What address ?
Mr. Maddock. Rockaway Farms.
Mr. Rice. How do you spell that ?
Mr. Maddock. M-a-d-d-o-c-k.
Mr. Rice. There is no "s" on it ?
Mr. Maddock. No.
Mr. Rice. M-a-d-d-o-c-k?
Mr. Maddock. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What is your address there ?
Mr. Maddock. Just Laurel, Md. .
Mr. Rice. Do you live in a residence there ?
Mr. Maddock. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Who lives there with you ?
Mr. Maddock. My wife.
Mr. Rice. What is her name ?
Mr. Maddock. Frances.
Mr. Rice. What is the telephone number ?
Mr. Maddock. 438.
Mr. Rice. Whose name is that in ?
Mr. Maddock. John Maddock.
Mr. Rice. How long have you been living there ?
56 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Maddock. About 8 years.
Mr. IvKi.. Do you own the place?
Mr. Maddock. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Jointly with your wife?
Mr. Maddock. Well, I believe so.
Mr. Rice. Don't you know ?
Mr. Maddock. J don't know what you mean.
Mr. Rice. Is it survivorship?
.M r. ( )'CoNNEliL. Jointly ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What do yon estimate as the value of that place, Mr.
Maddock?
Mr. Maddock. I built it myself . I have been building it for 3 years-
It cosl me about $20,000 or $25,000 to build it-
Mr. Rice. What would von sell it for?
Mr. Maddock. Maybe around $40,000.
Mr. Rice. You would sell it for around forty? Would you take an
offer of $40,000?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Now, do you own any other property ?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What other property do you own?
Mr. Maddock. 1 own the ground that the diner sets on.
Mr. Rice. The around that the diner is on?
Mr. Maddock. Yes; right next to it.
Mr. Kick. What is the name of that diner?
Mr. Maddock. Outriders Diner.
Mr. Rick. Do you own the diner?
Mr. Maddock. No, sir.
Mr. Kick. You just own the ground?
Mr. Maddock. 1 leased the ground.
M r. Kick. To whom did you lease to ?
Mr. Maddock. William Mayugh.
Mr. Rice. How do you spell that ?
Mr. Maddock. M-a-v-u-g-h, I believe.
Mr. Kick. Do you have a lease with Mayugh?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Kick. Where is that?
Mr. Maddock. I might have it in a safe deposit box.
Mr. Rice. Where is your safe deposit box ?
Mr. Maddock, ('it y Bank.
Mr. Rice. What city?
Mr. Maddock. Washington.
Mr. Rice. Where is thai located \
Mr. Maddock. Ninth and Mount Vernon, I believe.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any other safe deposit boxes?
Mr. Maddock. My wife lias one in Laurel.
Mr. Kick. In what bank?
Mr. Maddock. Citizens Bank, there. There is only one bank there.
Mr. Rice. Do you have a key to that box ?
Mr. Maddock. I have never been in it.
Mr. Rick. You don'1 haveakey to your wife's box?
Mr. M \udock. I haven't got one.
Mr. Rice. Is this a joint box at Laurel?
Mr. M \ ick. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX IXTERSTATE COMMERCE 57
Mr. Rice. But you have never been in it.
Mr. Maddock. No.
Mr. Rice. How about the box here, is that a joint box?
Mr. Maddock. No.
Mr. Rice. That is yours, individually?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. You have a key ?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. You have the lease to the Mayugh property there?
Mr. Maddock. I believe so, yes.
Mr. Rice. Was that lease drawn by a lawyer?
Mr. Maddock. It was drawn by Mr. Plunkert.
Mr. Rice. Is he a lawyer ?
Mr. Maddock. A real estate man.
Mr. Rice. Where is he located?
Mr. Maddock. 1404 M Street NW.
Mr. Rice. How long is the lease for?
Mr. Maddock. Ten years. I don't remember. I think it was '47.
Mr. Rice. And how much per month?
Mr. Maddock. 2.5 percent of the gross.
Mr. Rice. Two and a half percent of the gross business done by the
diner.
Mr. Maddock. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Who keeps the books and records so you can figure out
what your percentage is?
Mr. Maddock. They have an auditor and he gives me a little slip
with it on at the end of the month.
Mr. Rice. How much did that amount to last vear, for the year
1950?
Mr. Maddock. About $2,500.
Mr. Rice. For the entire year?
Mr. Maddock. Yes. It runs between $2,500 and $3,000.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any other properties?
Mr. Maddock. I have a house jointly with my mother. Between
my mother and myself.
Mr. Rice. Where is that located?
Mr. Maddock. In Laurel.
Mr. Rice. What is your mother's name?
Mi-. Maddock. Anastasia.
Mr. Rice. Is she living in the hor.se?
Mr. Maddock. Not now. She is living with me now.
Mr. Rice. She is living with you ?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Is that house rented?
Mr. Maddock. Not now.
Mr. Rice. What condition is the house in?
Mr. Maddock. I am remodeling it now.
Mr. Rice. Do you want to sell that?
Mr. Maddock. I am going to rent it.
Mr. Rice. You are going to rent it?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any other properties ?
Mr. Maddock. I have property with Plunkert.
58 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
.Mr. Rick. With Mr. Phmkert?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Sir. Rice. What property is that?
Mi. Maddock. We have a lot of ground, a lot of lots and acreage.
Mr. Rick. Are they all vacant lots?
Mr. Maddock. Nearly all of it is undeveloped ground.
Mr. Rick. Is any owned by a corporation 2
Mr. Maddock. Some of it is.
Mr. Rick. Plunkert & Maddock Corp.?
Mr. Maddock. Yes, sir.
Mr. RiCEt Are you an officer in that corporation?
Mr. Maddock. Yes, sir.
.Mr. Rick. What officer are you?
Mr. Maddock. President.
Mr. Rick. You are what?
Mr. Maddock. President.
Mr. Rick. What is he?
Mr. Maddock. Secretary and treasurer.
Mr. Rick. That is a closed corporation, just the two of you?
Mr. Maddock. There is one more party.
Mr. Rick. Who is that?
Mr. Maddock. M. E. Spinks.
Mr. Rick. How do you spell that \
.Mr. Maddock. S-p-i-n-k-s.
Mr. Rick. Where does Mr. Spinks live?
Mr. Maddock. That is a Miss.
Mr. Rick. Where does Miss Spinks live?
Mr. Maddock. On Riggs Mill Road — no; Riggs Road.
Mr. Rick. Is Miss Spinks in business?
.Mr. Maddock. No.
Mr. Rice. How does she happen to be in this corporation?
Mr. M kDDOCK. We \\<(h\ her for a straw.
Mi'. Rick. How did you happen to know Miss Spinks?
Mr. Maddock. I knew her from Mr. Plunkert.
.Mr. Rice. Mr. Plunkert arranged that?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rick. I have here some records I presume you submitted, indi-
cating thai the assets of Plunkert & Maddock at the end of 1950
were $139,848.80. Does that sound about right?
Mr. Maddock. If that is what I submitted, that is what it was. I got
them papers out of the office when I was subpenaed.
Mr. Rick. That is all real estate business, buying and selling prop-
erl ies '.
.Mr. Maddock. Yes; and building houses.
Mr. Kick. Do you have another corporation, John Maddock?
Mr. M \ddo( k. 1 had it but it dissolved.
Mr. Rice. Was that also in the real estate business?
M r. Maddock. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rid . When that was terminated that went over into Plunkert
& Maddock?
Mr. M vddock. No; that house my mother had, I had that in the
corporal ion.
Mr. Rice. But Maddock is dissolved now.
Mr. M vddock. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 59
Mr. Kice. Do you also have a partnership with Plunkert?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. That is in addition to
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Why do you have a partnership and also a corporation
with him ?
Mr. Maddock. Don't ask me, I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Well, you are part of it.
Mr. Maddock. I rely more on him for real-estate advice than any-
thing else.
Mr. Rice. Yes; but it would look just to us as if the corporation
could do everything that the partnership could do. Why is it neces-
sary to have a partnership and a corporation ?
Senator Hunt. Would it be because of the tax payments differ — ■
the income tax payments differ between a partnership and a corpo-
ration (
Mr. Maddock. Not that I know of.
Senator Hunt. They do. I can tell you that.
Mr. Rice. Who keeps the books and records for the corporation?
Mr. Maddock. Who is it?
Mr. O'Connell. Joseph O'Connell.
Mr. Maddock. In Silver Spring.
Mr. Rice. Is he an accountant?
Mr. Maddock. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about the partnership?
Mr. Maddock. I believe Mr. Plunkert keeps that.
Mr. Rice. Does the partnership have any assets ?
Mr. Maddock. Yes; we got assets.
Mr. Rice. What do you have in the partnership ?
Mr. Maddock. We got notes and we got property.
Mr. O'Connell. I might say at this time, Mr. Maddock authorized
me to call Mr. Farrell and suggest to him that the office was open if
they want to send any number of men they wanted to go through all
the records and completely explore it to the committee's satisfaction.
Mr. Rice. That is Mr. Farrell in Silver Spring?
Mr. O'Connell. No ; the assistant on your committee.
Mr. Rice. Where would he go to get this information \
Mr. O'Connell. At 1404 M Street NW.
Mr. Maddock. That is our office in Washington.
Mr. Rice. You use an address box 32, Riggs Mill Road '.
Mr. Madix ick. That is where Spinks lives.
Mr. Rice. But your office is at M Street.
Mr. Maddock. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any other business besides this real-estate
business ?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer on the grounds it might incrim-
inate me.
Mr. Rice. Are you under indictment ?
Mr. Maddock. Not that I know of.
Mr. Rice. You would know if you were under indictment?
Mr. Maddock. No; I don't know.
Mr. Rice. You don't know that you are under indictment?
Mr. Maddock. No.
60 ORGANIZED CRIME IX IVH.KSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Kick. Are you under investigation by any agency tnat you
know of?
Mr. Maddock. This one, 1 am.
Mr. Rice. You are under investigation by this committee?
Mr. Maddock. Yes; am I not?
Mr. Rick. And any other agency that you know of?
Mr. Maddock. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. In connection with the question, what other business do
you have, do you fear prosecution of a Federal or a State offense?
Mr. Maddock. Both.
Mr. Kick. Do you have a specific offense in mind from which you
fear prosecution?
Mr. Maddoctk. No specific offense.
Mr. Rice. Von have no specific offense?
Mr. Maddock. No.
Mr. Rice. Is this a hypothetical thing? Something that you think
might happen to you or do you know, exactly?
Mr. Maddock. Something that might happen.
Senator Hunt. May I admonish the counsel, please, not to answer
every question for the witness. We will not object at all to counsel
conferring with the witness.
Mr. (("('dwell. He appears to he rather excited and I have a good
idea what his answer might be. I am not tipping him off as to what,
the answer should he.
Senator Hunt. If we may then, counsel, when there seems to be
some lack of determination on the part of the witness, then we will
allow you to converse with him.
Mr. Rice. Now. you say you have no definite offense in mind, about
what other business you are in this year?
( Xo response.)
Mi'. Rice. What other business besides this real estate are you in?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that on the ground I might in-
criminate myself.
Mr. Rice. The thing you are afraid you might incriminate yourself
about, does that involve yourself or other people I
Senator Hunt. The Chairman didn't mean to indicate you couldn't
converse with yeur counsel, if you wish.
Mr. Maddock. I am afraid I will incriminate myself.
Mr. Kick. You do not know whether it involves yourself, or others,
or both ?
Mr. Maddock. Will you repeat the question?
Mr. Rice. Does the offense which you have in mind involve your-
self, or others?
Mr. Maddock. Myself.
Mr. Rick. It involves yourself ?
Mr. M \ddock. Yes.
Mr. Kick. Von say it is a violation of both Federal and State laws?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Kick. Do you know \
i No response. )
Mr. Rice. Do yon know the answer? There is a difference between
knowing t he answer and refusing to answer.
Mi'. Maddock. I refuse to answer on tin1 ground that I might in-
criminate mvsel f. I don't know.
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 61
Mr. Rice. Let ns let the reporter read the question back to him.
The Reporter (reading) :
You say it is a violation of both Federal and State laws?
Mr. Rice. Is it a violation of both Federal and State laws?
Mr. Maddock. I fear both Federal and State laws, yes.
Mr. Rice. You fear, but do you have a definite violation in mind?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that on the grounds that it might
incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Now, going back to 1044. what business were you in. in
1944?
Mr. Maddock. I know I was in the real estate business.
Mr. Rice. In 1044 yon were in the real estate business?
Mr. Maddock. I have been in the real estate business since 1935, I
believe, or 1936.
Mr. Rice. In 1944, were you in any other business?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that on the ground I might in-
criminate myself.
Mr. Rice. I take it that your answer is the same, that you fear
incrimination through both Federal and State offenses in something
that occurred in 1944?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rick. Were you in business with a man by the name of Opple-
man. in 1944?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that on the ground I might in-
criminate nryself. i
Mr. Rice. Do you know a man by the name of Oppleman?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that on the ground I might in-
criminate myself.
Mr. Rice. I think it would be wise to ask the chair to direct the
witness to answer with respect to the question about 1(.)44, to answer
the question whether or not he had any business with Oppleman in
1944.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question, 'kDid you have any business with a Mr. Oppleman in
1944?"
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer on the grounds I might incrimi-
nate myself.
Mr. Rice. I wonder if Mr. O'Connell would help the witness to
agree that the statute of limitations on both Federal and State viola-
tions, with the possible exception of murder, has operated.
Mr. O'Connele. If the committee can guarantee the witness immu-
nity against State and Federal prosecution, perhaps he might answer.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of the statute of limitations, Mr.
Maddock?
Mr. Maddock. I don't know. I have heard of it.
Mr. Rice. You do not know whether you have heard of it or not?
Mr. Maddock. Well, I have heard of it. I have heard people talk-
ing about it and this and that.
Mr. Rice. What does it mean?
(No response.)
Mr. Rice. How much education do you have. Mr. Maddock?
Mr. Maddock. I didn't finish grammar school.
^.-,277— "il— i»t. 17 5
62 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. What grade did you go to, in grammar school?
Mr. Maddock. The sixth grade.
Mr. Rice. Do you read and write?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
.M r. Rice. I )<> you know a man by the name of King?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that on the grounds that it might
incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Do you know a man by the name of Paddy Clark?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that on the grounds that it might
incriminate me.
Mr. Rick. Do you know a man by the name of Howard Ortel?
Mr. .Maddock. I refuse to answer that on the grounds that it might
incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Do you know a man named Edward O'Connell.
Mr. O'Connell. AVhichone?
Mr. Rice. T. E.
Mr. O'Connell. Yes.
Senator Hunt. The Chair directs the witness to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Rice. How long have }7ou known Mr. O'Connell ?
Mr. Maddock. Twenty years, I believe.
Mr. Rice. Has he represented you from time to time during that
time ?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever been arrested?
Mr. Maddock. 1 refuse to answer that on the grounds that it might
incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever been arrested and convicted ?
Mr. Maddock. No.
Mr. Rice. You have never been convicted?
Mr. Maddock. No. I might have paid a fine or something. Is
that conviction?
Mr. O'Connell. It couldn't be anything else.
Mr. Rice. What is the offense that you mentioned that you paid a
fine on ?
Mr. Maddock. Oh, I don't know, it was traffic or maybe being drunk
and disorderly. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Let us get a little definite.
Mr. Maddock. It has been so long ago since I have been arrested —
ii was in the thirties, I think.
Mr. Rice. Where were you arrested?
Mr. Maddock. Here in Washington.
Mr. Rice. Did you spend any time in jail?
Mr. Maddock. No.
Mr. Rice. Did the Washington Police Department arrest you?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. And you paid a fine?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. You think it was drunk and disorderly?
Mr. Maddock. I believe so.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any other arrests?
Mr. Maddock. 1 have been arrested but I was never convicted for
anything.
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 63
Mr. Rice. You have been arrested but never convicted on other
tilings?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Do you know a woman by the name of Gladys Cooley I
Mr. Maddock. No ; I don't recognize the name.
Mr. Rick. You don't know her?
Mr. Maddock. No.
Mr. Rice. Do you know anyone by the name of May Cooley \
Mr. Maddock. No.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever transacted any business with Howard
Sports in Baltimore?
Mr. Maddock. Who is Howard Sports \
Mr. Rice. Howard Sports, the news service.
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that on the grounds I might
incriminate myself.
Mr. Rice. In 1944, did you transact any business with Howard
Sports ?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that on the grounds I might
incriminate myself.
"Mr. Rice. Do you know a man by the name of Sleep-out Louis ?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that on the grounds I might
incriminate myself.
Mr. Rice. Do you know Mushy Wexler ?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that on the grounds I might
incriminate myself.
Mr. Rice. Air. Chairman, I see no point in pursuing this line of
inquiry.
Mr. O'Connell. The witness has mentioned to me with respect
to the house where he and his wife and child live ; he says it is in the
name of Miss Spinks.
Mr. Maddock. The ground is. I paid for it as I went along.
Mr. Rice. She is the woman you mentioned as "straw."
Would you want to say why it is in Miss Spinks' name?
Mr. Maddock. Well, I don't know. Plunkert just engineered all
that and used her as a straw for making deals. We made quite a few
deals this year. We bought houses. He was the salesman. We would
go in and buy it, and if they thought it was for us the price would
be up because we have bought a lot of ground around here.
Mr. O'Coxnell. Do you have any particular reason for having it
in Miss Spinks' name ?
Mr. Maddock. No.
Mr. Rice. Do you own any race horses?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that on the grounds that I might
incriminate myself.
Mr. Rice. Do you own any automobiles?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Are they in your name?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What cars are those, what automobiles ?
Mr. Maddock. I own a Cadillac.
Mr. Rice. Is that listed in your name?
Mr. Maddock. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And licensed in Maryland ?
Mr. Maddock. Yes, sir.
64 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. Do you own any other automobiles?
Mr. Maddock. My wife does.
Mr. Rice. And what name is that listed in?
Mr. Maddock. In her name, Fiances.
Mr. Rick. What type of car is that?
Mr. Maddock. A Buick.
Mr. Rich. What was your answer to the question about whether
you own any race horses (
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer on the grounds I might incrimi-
nate myself.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever raced any race horses?
Mr. Maddock. 1 have.
Mr. Rice. Do you have race horses?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Have you raced them on tracks in Maryland?
Mr. Maddock. Yes ; I have.
Mr. Rice. Have any of your horses ever run at Laurel?
Mr. Maddock. Yes.
Mr. Rice. How long ago was the last time one of your horses ran
at Laurel?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it might
incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Have any of your horses ever run at Bowie?
Mr. Maddock. Yes ; I have run horses at Bowie.
Mr. Rice. Now. going back to Laurel, at the time your horses raced
at Laurel, under whose name were they running?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Rice. Were they running under your name?
Mr. Maddock. At one time
Mr. Rice. At one time they were?
Mr. Maddock. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Is that your answer?
Mr. Maddock. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And at another time they were running under someone
else's name.
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that on the grounds I may in-
criminate myself.
Mr. Moser. Mr. Maddock, I have observed while you were testifying
that you felt a little nervous.
Mr. Maddock. Yes, I am.
Mr. Mosi.h. You said you thought you were being investigated by
this committee.
We are investigating crime conditions generally and at the moment,
in Baltimore. We are not investigating you.
The purpose of our investigation is not to get anybody and not
1<> gel you. hut it is for the purpose of getting information upon the
basis of whicli the Senate should decide whether or not to adopt
legislation. The only reason we ask you these questions is to get
information, find out how things work and see if there is some way
we can change it.
Do you have any information about organized crime that does not
involve you, and thai will not incriminate you ?
Mr. Maddock. 1 don't know anything about anv organized crime.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 65
Mr. Moser. You don't know anything about any organized crime?
Mr. Maddock. No.
Mr. O'Connell. He says he doesn't think there is any organized
crime in Maryland.
Mr. Moser. Do you know of any illegal activities carried on by
others than yourself in which you would not be involved or incrimi-
nated ?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that question
Mr. O'Connell. Wait a minute. Read the question back.
The Reporter (reading) :
Do you know of any illegal activities carried on by others than yourself in
which you would not be involved or incriminated?
Mr. Maddock. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. O'Connell. He says he refuses to answer but he doesn't know.
Mr. Moser. You don't know whether you know anything about
those things or not ?
Mr. Maddock. No.
Senator Hunt. The witness is excused.
You remain under subpena in case we do need you again.
Would you stand, please. Would you give your name.
Mr. Ing. Bilson Ing.
TESTIMONY OF BILSON ING, VICE PRESIDENT, HOWARD SPORTS
DAILY, INC., BALTIMORE MD.
Senator Hunt. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this
committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. Ing. I do.
Mr. Rice. Mr. Ing, you appeared before the committee once before,
I believe ?
Mr. Ing. In Chicago, yes.
Mr. Rice. To briefly review your testimony, you are an officer of
Howard Sports.
Air. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is the corporate name of that?
Mr. Ing. Howard Sports Daily, Inc.
Mr. Rice. What position do you hold ?
Mr. Ing. Vice president.
Mr. Rice. And the other officers are ?
Mr. Ing. The president is George D. Maclnerny.
Mr. Rice. Where is he located ?
Mr. Ing. He is in Baltimore.
Mr. Rice. Is he an active participant in the business ?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Mr. Maclnerny and yourself as vice president.
Mr. Ing. That is right, and Harry Bilson is the secretary and gen-
eral manager.
Mr. Rice. Of Howard Sports?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. All of you own stock ; is that correct ?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And you and Mr. Bilson are on a salary basis; is that
correct ?
66 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Ing. All three of us are.
Mr. Rice. All three of you are on a salary basis?
Mr. Ing. Yes.
Mr. Rice. You have never participated in a dividend of the com-
pany; have you?
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. And no one has?
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is the corporate arrangement with the Radio
Program Press?
Mr. Ing. That went out of existence, Mr. Rice, 1 1 hink the latter part
of 1949. I am not sure when the Florida Commission ordered the wire
down.
Mr. Rice. "When they did that, that was the end of Radio Program
Press ?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Are there any other corporate entities with which you
are connected now '.
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any connection with Worldwide News and
Music '.
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Does either Mr. Bilson or Mr. Maclnerny ?
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about the Trans Radio Press?
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any publications in connection with Howard
Sports Daily?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What are they ?
Mr. Ing. It is a scratch sheet that is printed daily.
Mr. Rice. What is the name of that ?
Mr. Ing. Howard Sports Daily.
Mr. Rice. And that is printed elsewhere?
Mr. Ing. No ; it is printed in Baltimore.
Mr. Rice. But not in the same building. You are in the Munsey
Building; are you not?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Are there any other publications?
Mr. Ing. No, sir; just that one.
Mr. Rice. Are there any other corporate entities associated with
Howard Sports?
Mr. Ing. No. Mr. Rice, let me understand now. Do you mean are
we associated or connected with any other corporation?
Mr. Rice. Yes; you individually.
Mr. Ing. No.
Mr. Rice. You don't have any other subsidiaries or parent com-
panies?
Mr. Ixg. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And you have no interest in Continental Press?
Mr. Ing. None whatever.
Mr. Rice. I believe you said you maintained the books and records?
Mr. Ing. That is right, sir.
Mr. Rice. Of Howard Sports?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME ENT INTERSTATE COMMERCE 67
Mr. Rice. And you prepare the tax return ; do you ?
Air. Ing. No, sir ; we have an auditor who does that.
Mr. Bice. Who does that?
Mr. Ing. Mr. Louis Kadis.
Mr. Rice. Where is he located?
Mr. Ing. I think it is in the Court Square Building in Baltimore.
Mr. Rice. He prepares tax returns from information furnished by
you ; does he not ?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Are you at the present time doing business with Conti-
nental News?
Mr. Ing. Continental Press Service?
Mr. Rice. Continental Press?
Mr. Ing. Sure.
Mr. Rice. Are you doing business with them today ?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What arrangements do you have with Continental Press ?
Mr. Ing. On the race tracks that we gather the news from, we sell
to them, and then we buy the other news from them.
Mr. Rice. So that it will be understandable to the chairman, there
are some race tracks around the country where Howard Sports gathers
the information?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And you have employees then, at those tracks, to get the
race results?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Now, name some of those tracks where Howard Sports
gathers the information.
Mr. Ing. May I just name the States that the tracks are in?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Ing. I think that would cover it.
Mr. Rice. You handle it by States ?
Mr. Ing. All the tracks that run in these particular States we han-
dled.
Mr. Rice. What are the States?
Mr. Ing. Maryland, Delaware, New Jersey, and Florida.
Mr. Rice. At all other tracks you buy your information from
Continental ?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. It is possible that you can be buying from and selling to
Continental at the same time and usually is ; isn't it?
Mr. Ing. Yes; that is right.
Mr. Rice. Let us take a sample track like, say, Garden State up there
in New Jersey. When you are gathering information from Garden
State, what is the price that Continental is charged for that informa-
tion?
Mr. Ing. That we charge them, you say ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Ing. $400 a' day.
Mr. Rice. $400 a day?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Senator Hunt. May I ask what is that information ?
Mr. Ing. All the results, lines, and mutuels of that particular race
track.
68 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Hunt. You advise them the name of the horse, the weight
the horse carries, the name of the rider, the results of the race, the po-
sit ion they have in starting, and all of those details?
Mr. Inc. Some of those details. Senator, are printed early in the
morning and we don'f have to furnish that but as to the result and
the mutuel and the position during the race; yes.
Mr. Rice. And scratches?
Mr. Ixg. No, they are out in the morning. They are out early in
the morning.
We gather them at that race track, that is true. We gather those,
too.
Senator Hunt. As a result of the mutuels, do you mean the betting
being done on that particular horse?
Mr. Tng. The result is how the horses finish and the mutuel is the
prices t hat the horse paid on the totalizator hoard or in the mutuel ma-
chines, whichever they might employ.
Mr. Rice. So Continental pays you $400 a day for that information
on I he tracks where you gather the information?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. On the other tracks where the}^ sell it to you what do you
pay them ?
Mr. Ing. We pay them — well, I will tell you the same as it happened
out there, Mr. Rice. We pay them now $500 and tax, a week.
Mr. Rice. $500 a week?
Mr. Ixg. And tax. We have to pay 8 percent tax, which goes to the
Government.
Now, then, at the end of the year, other than a working balance
which we will have to keep in order to meet current bills that come up
as they may come up, we keep a working balance, and any that is left
nvcr. we send to Continental to make up for what we possibly could
have paid them during the year. Do you understand what I mean?
Mr. Rice. No. Reduce it to figures.
Mr. Ing. If we had to pay them at the same rate for the race tracks
that we buy from them, we couldn't exist.
Mr. Rice. In other words, if you paid them $400 a day, it would be
a stand-off.
M r. I \o. No, it wouldn't be a stand-off, we couldn't exist because we
have to buy too many tracks from them.
Mr. Rice. So they" sell it to you for $500 a week?
Mr. Ing. And then at the end of the year any balance other than a
working balance — well, we will say in round figures, we will keep
maybe $1,000 or $1,200, in order to meet current bills as they come up
for the next week. We send to them the balance.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any written agreement reciting those
terms '.
Senator Hint. Will you explain in detail this 8 percent tax to
the Government. Is that an income tax?
Mi-. I\<;. No, sir; that is what is called, as I understand it, a leased
wire tax. 8 percent each week. In other words, our rate would be
$500 and the S percent which we add goes to Continental, which
would he $540. Now the $40 is tax, the same as on our subscribers
who -end ns the rate plus the tax, that tax is turned over at the end
of the month as the leased wire tax. ''Leased wire and equipment
tax.*' I believe are the words used.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 69
Senator Hunt. It is just the same as a tax on a telegram. It is not
a tax on the service you render.
Mr. Ing. No, sir. I think it is listed as "leased wire and equip-
ment tax." It is a form that they send each month. The Govern-
ment sends it to us each month to be filled out with the amount that
is to be paid.
Senator Huxt. Then, there should be a department in the Federal
Government that is thoroughly conversant with your transactions,
shouldn't there he — that department that receives the tax?
Mr. Ing. Well, it is sent to the collector of internal revenue in
Baltimore. I don't know which department or bureau handles it
but it is sent in with the original of the form that they send us each
month.
Mr. Moser. Do you file a return yourselves ?
Mr. Ing. For the tax that we collect. Not that we pay. In other
words, let me try to clear this : On the $500 a week, the tax we pay on
that we don't file the return for that.
Mr. Moser. You pass the tax on.
Mr. Ing. That is right. We pay the tax as we pass it on to them.
Mr. Moser. The tax you collect from your customers you file a
return on.
Mr. Ixg. We file direct, yes. We had a gentleman over there a
couple years ago, you know, to make a routine check, and he found
everything in order. It was 2 or 3 years ago.
Mr. Rice. I asked you, I believe, if there was any written under-
standing with Continental Press as to these terms that you have just
recited?
Mr. Ixg. No.
Mr. Rice. That is strictly an oral understanding.
Mr. Ing. That is right, '
Mr. Rice. Who are the parties to that understanding?
Mr. Ing. Harry Bilson and Walter Lloyd.
Mr. Rice. Walter Lloyd of Continental?
Mr. Ixg. That is right,
Mr. Rice. Did Tom Kelly interview those negotiations?
Mr. Ixg. As far as I know he did not ; no, sir.
Mr. Rice. Now going back to Garden State, again, and your gath-
ering of information from Garden State, do you have any employees
who handle that?
Mr. Ixg. Oh, yes.
Mr. Rice. Wlio handles that?
Mr. Ixg. Egner. Robert Egner.
Wait a minute now. Pardon me. Offhand now I just can't name
the employees who worked at Garden State. That is pinning me
down to something now where I can't name just what employees
worked at Garden State.
Mr. Rice. Can you name any employees who gathered information
at any track ?
Mr. Ixg. Oh, sure.
Mr. Rice. Who would they be?
Mr. Ixg. B. R. Malone and Manga n and Sherry.
Mr. Rice. Irving Sherry ?
Mr. Ixg. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And Koelling. How about Roscoe Odle?
70 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Ixg. I could not tell you where Mr. Odle is, since the time he
was over in the office. He was taken off the payroll at that time.
Mr. Rice. As far as you know he has disappeared and stayed that
way \
Mr. Ixg. As far as we know ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Who is in charge of the crew who collects that infor-
mation?
Mr. Ixg. Mr. Gorman contacted us and made an offer that if we
would let him use our employees, he could furnish us with the particu-
lar news at Garden State.
Mr. Rice. And this was Mr. Gorman ?
Mr. Ing. Yes.
Mi*. Rice. How do you spell that?
Mr. Ixg. G-o-r-m-a-n.
Mr. Rice. What is his first name ?
Mr. Ixg. I think it is R.
Mr. Rice. You think it is R ?
Mr. Ixg. I think it is R ; yes.
Mr. Rice. Is he an employee of Howard Sports ?
Mr. Ixg. Yes. He contacted us and said with our crew, he could
assure us of the news from that particular race track.
Mr. Rice. Let us see what happened here. When did Gorman come
into the picture ?
Mr. Ixg. I think it was this past February.
Mr. Rice. February 1951 ?
Mr. Ixg. I think that is when it was; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Where is Mr. Gorman's office located?
Mr. Ixg. The checks are sent to — wait a minute now, Mr. Rice, I
would have to look that up. It is in Florida. It is either Hollywood
or Hallandale. The name on the billhead is The Tropical News.
Mr. Rice. Now, we have this picture : Mr. Gorman, of Florida, at
either Hallandale or Hollywood, Tropical News, is contracting to take
your crew and obtain information at Garden State in New Jersey?
Mr. Ixtg. He came up through there after Florida and said that he
would handle Garden State for us.
Mr. Rice. What were the arrangements with Mr. Gorman?
Mr. Ixg. That is all. He bills us a certain amount.
Mr. Rice. What amount?
Mr. Ixg. Garden State — now you see, Mr. Rice, I am relying on
my memory now for figures.
Mr. Rice. Yes. Approximately.
Mi-. Ixg. Now, this would have to be a guess and I couldn't be held
to it. I think it was $2,400, 1 am not sure.
Mr. Rice. For the meeting?
Mr. Ixg. That is right. I think that is what it is. I wouldn't
want to be held to those figures.
Mr. Rice. They run 2 weeks. That would be $200 a day?
Mr. Ixg. About that; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Now, does he take that as an independent contractor to
do (hat? He is not on your payroll?
Mr. Ixg. No.
Mr. Rice. You don't deduct anything from him?
Mr. Ixg. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You pay a flat fee.
Mr. Ixg. That is right.
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 71
Mr. Rice. He takes your employees, Mangan and Egner and people
like that.
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How many employees do you give him?
Mr. Ing. It is sometimes two — now this is just a rough example.
We will say maybe Malone and Mangan.
Mr. Rice. You give him two employees, and you pay them.
Mr. Ing. Oh, yes. They are on our payroll and they are all
deducted.
Mr. Rice. You pay those fellows how much a week, approximately ?
Mr. Ing. $75.
Mr. Rice. Plus expenses ?
Mr. Ixg. $42 ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about the cost of the locations? Who pays for
that?
Mr. Ing. This Tropical News does. This Gorman.
Mr. Rice. Now Gorman, you don't know his first name, you say?
Mr. Ing. It is R, I think.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever met him?
Mr. Ing. No, sir ; I have not.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever seen him ?
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have a contract with him ?
Mr. Ing. Not a written contract; no. He sends us a bill.
Mr. Rice. But you have his address over at the office?
Mr. Ing. It is on the billhead.
Mr. Rice. We can get that?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. You pay him approximately $2.400 ; he takes your crew
and he obtains the information at the track?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. How does that information come in to you from Garden
State ? Over the telephone ?
Mr. Ing. Garden State is on the telephone; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. A collect telephone call?
Mr. Ing. I would imagine it is ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Now, wait a minute.
Mr. Ing. Well, you see, Mr. Rice, things like that now are worked
out in the office where the news comes into. Either our man in the
office calls him or he would call collect. Which it is, I don't know.
Mr. Rice. You pay the bills ?
Mr. Ing. Oh, yes.
Mr. Rice. You handle the books. Now who pays the telephone bills
for those calls?
Mr. Ing. We pay for them. One way or another, we pay for them.
I mean you were getting down as to which way the call was made.
We pay for the call, regardless.
Mr. Rice. Now suppose he needs an automobile. Do you pay for
that, too?
Mr. Ing. Suppose who needs an automobile?
Mr. Rice. Gorman.
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you pay him any expenses other than the $2,400 ?
Mr. Ing. No.
72 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. It is a flat fee?
.Mr. Inc. Thai is right.
Mr. Rice. You don't know where you could reach him?
Mr. I no. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. Rice. Does he have a post office box or a street address?
Mr. Inc. I think it is Tropical News. I think it is a post office
box.
Mr. Rice. Do you pay him in advance or after he has completed
the job?
Mr. Ino. Ii is six of one and a half dozen of the other. It is not
all in advance and it is not after the meet ino- is over. After the meet-
ing has progressed reasonably far, he sends a bill in and then we
honor it.
Mr. Rice. I see.
In connection with the tracks in Florida, does he contract to take
care of those, too ?
Mr. Inc. That is the same.
Mr. Rick. And lie produced the goods during the past winter?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. How is the information brought in from Florida, by
long-distance telephone?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And you pay the bills?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. You say this fellow Gorman handled the project this
past winter in Florida \
Mr. Inc. I would say, Mr. Rice, it was around February.
Mr. Rick. You say before they came through \
M r. Inc. I Jefore that, we just did the best we could.
Mr. Rice. What do you mean by that?
Mr. Inc. Well, we just got what we could.
Mr. Rice. Through your own crew?
Mr. Ing. That is right. I mean the news wasn't as it should be.
Mr. Rice. Who was in charge of that crew \
Mr. Ing. There was nobody in charge of it.
Mr. Rice. What men did you have down there I
Mr. Ing. Egner was there.
Mr. Rice. Sherry?
Mr. Ing. Sherry was there. Mangan was there. Malone, Egner,
Sherry.
Mr. Rice. They were not producing the goods satisfactorily?
Mr. 1 Mi. They did the best they could ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kick. What happened to overcome that difficulty?
Mr. Ing. Then this Gorman said thai he felt sure that with the help
of whatever employees he might need, he could produce better results.
Mr. Kick. Did behave any previous experience?
Mr. Inc. Well, I don't know.
Mr. Rick. Well, he sold himself to you, I take it?
Mr. Inc. He said he could produce, and as long as we found he
could produce, we were willing to pay him.
Mr. Rice. Did he handle any of the Florida tracks?
Mr. Ing. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Did he handle Hialeah?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 73
Mr. Ixg. I believe it was during the Hialeah meeting, if I am not
mistaken.
Mr. Rick. That you negotiated with him?
Mr. Ixg. I think it was.
Mr. Rice. Did you go down there or did he come up here 3
Mr. Ixg. Neither one.
Mr. Rice. How did yon handle that?
Mr. Ixg. He called on the telephone.
Mr. Rice. He called on the telephone?
Mr. Ixg. That is right.
Mr. Rice. He sold himself on the phone?
Mr. Ixg. That is right. He said he could produce and could im-
prove on the news so we said, "All right, we will see if you can.*'
Mr. Rice. Where is he now; do you know? Do you know what
track he is working, now?
Mr. Ixg. I think it is Monmouth.
Mr. Rice. They are running in New Jersey now and he is handling
the Xew Jersey tracks?
Mr. Ixg. That is right. I think it is Monmouth Park that is run-
ning, now.
Mr. Rice. How do you get in touch with him when he is at a track
and you want to get in touch with him 3
Mr. Ixg. There is no need to get in touch with him, Mr. Rice. As
long as the news comes in right, there is no need.
Mr. Rice. Suppose there is a breakdown 3
Mr. Ixg. If there is. he doesn't get paid.
Mr. Rice. But all your payments go to Florida ?
Mr. Ixg. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that ?
Mr. Ixg. Yes. He has a post-office box. I am sure he has a post-
office box, now, in either Hollywood or Hallandale. It is on the
billhead.
Mr. Rice. Do you pay him by check ?
Mr. Ixg. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Do you have some of the canceled checks that you have
paid him with \
Mr. Ixg. In the office ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. I want to make a note to ask you about those canceled
checks of Mr. Gorman.
Mr. Ixg. All right.
Mr. Rice. Now on the information of Continental, that comes in
over your Western Union wire the same as it always has \
Mr. Ixg. That is right.
Mr. Rice. You do not know anything about how they gather that 3
Mr. Ixg. No.
Mr. Rice. How about Bowie, where they have a direct line in there (
Is Gorman going to handle that 3
Mr. Ixg. We didn't have a direct line there at this last meeting;
no, sir.
Mr. Rice. At and since the last meeting, you did not have it 3
Mr. Ixg. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. When I was over there before, you had Roscoe Odle's
expense account ?
Mr. Ixg. Yes.
74 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. There was so much charge for locations, Two or three
locations he had.
How is that handled under this present set-up, the locations?
Mr. Eng. That is something that I can't answer, how that is han-
dled. This Gorman, evidently he has the locations.
Mr. Rice. He makes his own locations?
Mr. Ing. He must, because we don't pay for any locations or any-
thing.
Mr. Rice. You understand, Mr. Chairman, these locations are
places outside of the track enclosure from which these wigwag men
can use Held glasses and look into the enclosure and obtain the results.
Is that not right ?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. The news comes in both from Continental and your own
set-up through Gorman and you then sell the news, don't you?
Mr. Inc.. That is right.
Mr. Rice. You have two types of customers, one where you have
Western Union tickers?
Mr. Ing. Teletype machines.
Mr. Rice. And the others who take it over the telephone?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What States do you serve for that tvpe of information ?
Mr. Ing. Which type?
Mr. Rice. Either type, or both.
Mr. Inc.. The telephone is only local.
Mr. Rice. The telephone is only local ?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And when you speak about "local,'' you mean Baltimore?
Mr. Ing. In Baltimore City; that is right.
Mr. Rice. Suppose someone was located in Laurel, Md. ?
Mr. Ing. He would have to be on a teletype machine.
Mr. Rice. Why do you say that?
Mr. Ing. It is the only service that we have out of the city.
Mr. Rick. Wouldn't it be possible for an individual to call you up
from Laurel and get the same information?
Mr. Ing. It would be possible, but when he called, wouldn't that
require an operator? In other words, we don't handle out-of-the-city
calls.
Mr. Rick. Was that a matter of policy?
Mr. I M,. That is right.
M r. Rick. There is no mechanical reason for that \
Mr. Eng. No; it is our policy that if we have a subscriber out of
Ba li imore ( 'it y. he is on the teletype machine.
Mr. Rick. Suppose someone were willing to pay you for a long-
distance call in to you, to get the information? Why wouldn't that
be all right I
Mr. Eng. Well, Mr. Rice, possibly if we put a machine in there, we
posj iMy could realize more revenue weekly from it.
Mr. Rice. Suppose he wanted to pay some enormous figure to sit
here in Washington and get the results on a telephone?
Mr. I \(.. Not in Washington.
Mr. Kick. You wouldn't do it?
Mr. Eng. Not in Washington.
Mr. Rice. Do you know why?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 75
Mr. Ing. That has been a policy of the company as long as I have
been there. I don't know why.
Mr. Rice. You don't know why ?
Mr. Ing. No.
Mr. Rice. Who does know why ?
Mr. Ing. I don't know whether anybody knows, Mr. Rice, to tell you
the truth.
We did at one time have subscribers located outside of Washington.
Mr. Rice. Yes. Twenty-seven, I think. Either Howard Sports or
Sam Beard's Statewide.
Mr. Ing. Statewide.
At one time or another, we had subscribers around Washington,
but I don't know what it was but it has been the policy not to have
any subscribers in Washington itself. I couldn't tell you why. I
don't know whether anybody else knows why, Mr. Rice, to tell you the
truth.
Mr. Rice. How many tickers do }Tou have now? How many sub-
scribers do you have on tickers ?
Mr. Ing. Active subscribers, right now?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Ing. I think it is 11 or 12.
Mr. Rice. In what States are they?
Mr. Ing. Well, they comprised Maryland, Virginia, and I think that
is all, Maryland and Virginia.
Mr. Rice. How many are in Virginia?
(No response.)
Mr. Rice. Have you submitted a list of those?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Recently?
Mr. Ing. Just the other day. Mr. Finnerty turned over a list of
subc^ribors, bnt they are listed from the }Tear l'J19 on.
Mr. Rice. There was one on there, I believe, "Worldwide''?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. That paid considerably more than the others. Why is
that?
Mr. Ing. Because in effect, Mr. Rice, they are somewhat of a news
outlet, also. They have these music lines, or private music boxes or
something. I don't know just the term of it, but they have sports
flashes going out over that, too.
Mr. Rice. Who is the individual with whom you do business in
Worldwide?
Mr. Ing. Matusky.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any subscribers of any kind in Florida?
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any other subdistributors, like Worldwide?
Mr. Ixg. At the present time?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Ing. No.
Mr. Rice. They are the only ones?
Mr. Ixtg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How much do you charge Worldwide a week?
Mr. Ing. $250.
Mr. Rice. What would an outfit like the Rickraft Club in Ocean
City be charged?
76 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. [NG. I think their rate would be around $100 plus tax.
Mr. Rice. How do you arrive at the prices you charge Worldwide?
Mr. I \o. 1 don't know how that price is arrived at.
Mr. Rice. Do you consider the customers they serve?
Mr. I \<;. From all these customers we naturally try to get as much
revenue as we can. X<>w with n printer subscriber, the distance from
Baltimore which we have to pay for is taken into consideration. And
then as much revenue is gotten as is possible.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any written agreements with any cus-
tomers \
Mr. Inc. Rate agreement, now?
Mr. Kick. Yes; as to how much they will pay a month.
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Is that a weekly figure?
Mi-. Inc. That is weekly: yes. sir.
Mi'. Rick. Now your telephone customers, about how many of those
do you have '.
Mr. Ixg. In the city? Do you mean ones who call us for service?
Mr. Kick. Yes.
Mr. Inc. We have five. No. four.
Mr. Rice. Four telephone customers?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
M i . Rice. That is all you have at the moment?
Mr. Inc. AVe have one — now. Mr. Rice. I think it is four, and then
we have one printer line in the city of Baltimore, the only one, and
that is radio station WMAR-TV, which is counted as a city subscriber.
Mr. Rice. How much do you charge these telephone customers?
Mr. Ing. $40 — well, it was always $40 a week, Mr. Rice, but busi-
ness is so bad now7 we would almost settle for less if we could get more
customers.
M r. Rice. How do you account for business being so bad?
Mr. Ing. That I could not tell you.
M r. Rice. A staff member talked to someone in your outfit and asked
for the subscribers in Baltimore, and I think you gave him Jerome
Davis; is that one of them?
Mr. Inc. Whatever the list is there, Mr. Rice.
1 s t hat the list that Mr. Finnerty supplied one of your men ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
1 )o you have a code number system ?
Mr. 1 no. With the city subscribers; yes, sir.
Mr. Rick. You have a code number system so they call in and say
"This is No. 1 1." and that puts them on for the day?
M r. I no. As long as they pay; that is right.
Mr. Rice. Do you have a key book which shows who the people are
who have the keyed numbers?
Mr. Inc. Do you mean the names?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. [ng. No. sir: we have no names.
Mr. Rice. I low do you tell who the people are, then?
Mr. Inc. By number.
Mr. Rice. Who is No. 11?
Mr. I ng. We don't know.
Mr. Rick. \ow wait a minute. Let's go real, real slowT, here.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 77
Mr. Ing. Let me put it to you this way: Suppose now. for in-
stance, that you would call us up and you would want to subscribe to
our service.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Ing. All right, we would tell jou the rate. You would say
-All right, 1 will send it up. What number shall T use?" or '•How-
will you know who I am?" ''Your number is 11. Call in on Mul-
berry — " whatever number it is.
.Mr. Kick. You do not know the name?
Mr. Ing. When .Mr. Bilsori was with Mr. Sodaro over in the grand
jury, they said. "From now on we want you to get names," and he
told them at the time that he will have the name that they give.
Xow he can't vouch for the authenticity of the name or anything
else, but from now on he will make them give a name.
Mr. Rice. Let me see if I get this right. A voice calls up and says
he wants to buy the service?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Kick. You say "Well, it is $40 a week." He says, "All right,
I will pay it.''
Now you say "Send up the money." What does he do?
Mr. Ixg. We tell him first what code number we will give him.
Mr. Rice. Suppose he has a code number. You say, "You will be
No. 13."
Mr. Ixo. That is right.
Mr. Rick. You have No. 13.
Mr. Ing. He will send the money up as Xo. 13.
Mr. Rice. How does he send it and where does he send it?
Mr. Ixg. Up to our office.
Mr. Rice. In cash?
Mr. Ing. In cash.
Mr. Rice. Who takes that money?
Mr. Ing. We do in the office and it is credited to Xo. 13's account and
then Xo. 13 can call in for 1 week.
Mr. Rice. Then he is good for a week?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Then during the week, someone will call up and say
"This is Xo. 13."
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rick. What do you do. plug them in?
Mr. Ing. Xo; we don't have the hold-ons. They call up and ask
for whatever results they want.
If they happen to be running at some track and he asks for informa-
tion on a certain track, we say "Hold on; it is coming in," and then
they hold on after that.
Mr. Rice. How do you keep people from cheating on Xo. 13 by
calling up and impersonating Xo. 13?
Mr. Ing. If you were sitting there answering the phone" Mr. Rice
and we will say Xo. 13 called up and you gave him maybe two or three
results, and we will say possibly in 10 minutes' time Xo. 13 calls up
and asks for the same results over again, then you know that that
can't be. •
Mr. Rice. How do you know which one is which?
Mr. Ing. Well, the first one already has it.
852T7 — 51 — pt. 17 6
78 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. How do you know lie is not the wrong one ?
Mr. Ing. It might be the wrong one. The second one doesn't get it.
Mr. Rick. He might be the one who paid for it.
Mr. Ing. That could be.
Mr. Rice. Then what do you do ?
Mr. Ing. Then he is going to start hollering.
Mr. Rice. How do you straighten that out?
Mr. Ing. Then we would have to change his number.
Now that would happen very, very rarely. We will use you as an
example. You wanted to find out the result, or maybe two results.
Mr. Moser. You say you have to change the number when two call
in. How do you know the one who gets the number is the right one?
Mr. Ing. I was going to get to that. That would very, very rarely
happen. You would call up and your number is 13, and you are paid.
Who else would know your number but you? Do you understand
what I mean? Who else would know your number but you? You
would be the only one who would know No. 13.
Senator Hunt. When you make your first contact, if the No. 13,
instead of sending you up currency or cash, would send you in a check,
would jou take that check into your records by name, or would you
still take it into your records by number?
Mr. Ing. That check would still go under — in other words, it would
still be listed as No. 13.
Senator Hunt. You wouldn't take his name?
Mr. Ing. The only subscribers in the city of Baltimore, Senator,
who use checks, are the radio stations. They are the only ones. The
rest of the city is all currency.
The out-of-town subscribers on the printer circuit, naturally they
use checks or money orders. But the city subscribers, they send cur-
rency. If we did at any time have a subscriber and we will say he
was No. 13 and he was going to pay by check at each week, we would
have his name.
Senator Hunt. Why do they use that unorthodox method of doing
business?
Mr. Ing. Do you mean us, or the subscriber, now?
Senator Hunt. Well, both you and the subscriber? Apparently it
is an understanding between your subscriber and yourself so that your
subscriber's name won't appear on your records.
Whether you don't want his name on the records or whether the
subscriber does not, I do not know.
Mr. Ing. That could possibly be. Like I explained to Mr. Kiev,
it could possibly be that they wouldn't waul it on there, because just
as Mr. Bilson told the grand jury over there, any new subscribers that
came on, he would get a name from, but he wouldn't want to be held
if by any chance they did give him a wrong name or a wrong address.
I mean after all the city subscribers can call from any place in
the city. They can go in through a cigar store and drop a nickel in
the box. We would have no way of knowing their address.
Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Now going back to the ticker phase of
the operation; you furnished a list here which shows the rate per week
ami the on's and off's?
Mr. [NG. That is right.
Mr. Rice. It is a little difficult to read and I would like to review
it with you to be sure we are interpreting it correctly.
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 79
It is indicated here that there is a ticker paying $108 a week in
the name of Fox Clancey of Berkman Road, Augusta, Ga., which
went on at September 2, 1050.
Is that still on?
Mr. Ing. Maybe I can explain it to you better: Now you see here,
this is in 1950. He went on September 2 in 1950, and he is still on.
Mr. Rice. But you are serving in the State of Georgia?
Mr. Ing. Yes. I overlooked that one ; that is right. And there is
another one in Georgia, too. I overlooked that one.
Mr. Rice. There is another one in Georgia ?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. It should be in here. We have Fox Clancey, Augusta,
and Sam Smith in Roanoke.
Mr. Ing. He is off.
Mr. Rice. It shows that he is on, here.
Mr. Ing. Yes; I believe that is right. This list is correct.
Mr. Rice. The City News Service, Cumberland ?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Rickraft in Ocean City.
Mr. Ing. They went off May 9, here, didn't they? Here is where
he finally went off, December 18. The lady put it up here and it should
have been down here.
Mr. Rice. Then Rickraft is off?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. John Russell, Cumberland?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. J. H. Hogan, Harrisonburg, Va. ?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. E. W. Collins, Richmond, Va.
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Franz News Co., Cumberland?
Mr. Ing. He has gone off.
Mr. Rice. He is off?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Where do we say that, April 2 ?
Mr. Ing. It is May 31.
Mr. Rice. He is off, then ?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. E. A. Gibson, Richmond?
Mr. Ing. Yes.
Mr. Rice. He is on.
C. A. Cox, Richmond ?
Mr. Ing. Yes.
Now the other at Augusta I think you will find down near the
bottom.
Mr. Rice. Here is one in Macon.
Mr Ing. No ; that is not it.
Mr. Rice. Can you find it in your other records ?
Mr. Ing. R. G. Jamison.
Mr. Rice. He is on?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. R. G. Jamison, Augusta, Ga. He just started?
Mr. Ing. No ; he went back on.
Mr. Rice. Let us see what the total is now, then.
There are nine on.
80 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Inc. No; there are more than that. I think it is 11. Let me
check, here.
( Jorletto is on.
How aboul Jefferson Forbes?
Mr. Rice. He is marked off, here.
Mr. Inc. Yes, thai is right. That was the one I was thinking of.
Mr. Kick. There are 1<> on. There arc 10 ticker operations going
as of today '.
Mr. Inc. Now. Mr. Rice, may T explain to you, as I said before,
there is one printer in the city that we list as a city subscriber. That
is the television station, WMAR. They don't use the phone, but ac-
tually on the printer circuit itself there is the 10 aetive subscribers.
Mr. Kick. What does WMAR pay?
Mr. Txc WMAR pays $30 a week.
Mr. Rice. And these others pay $100 ?
Mr. In.;. WMAR is in the city. That is local.
Mr. Rick. Worldwide News and Music is in the city, too?
Mr. 1 \c. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And they pay $200 for it?
Mr. Inc. That is right.
Mr. Kick. How do yon distinguish between the two?
Mr. I\c That was the agreement or the price quoted to them, Mr.
Rice. That is the best I could tell yon.
Mr. Rice. Now yon have, you say. only four telephone subscribers?
Mr. I no. I think it is four — we listed five or six and two of them
are newspapers; thai is correct.
Mi'. Kick. Do you know the code numbers?
Mr. Inc. The Baltimore News. I know, is 08.
Mr. Kick. How about 03?
Mr. Inc. 03, he just went on May the 1st. I think you have a name
for him; do you not?
Mi-. Rick. Samuel Goldstein, Parker Street, $30.
Mr. Inc. That is right.
Mr. Rice. I think we checked up and found that to be a vacant lot.
Mr. Inc. There is this very thing that Mr. Bilson told the State's
attorney.
Mr. Rick. Now. going back to the Baltimore News, how much do
they pay for the service?
Mr. Inc. That is a gratis account.
Mr. Rick. Gratis?
Mr. Inc. That is right.
Mr. Rick. Do yon mean you give it to them for nothing?
Mr. l\c. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Why?
Mr. Inc. Because of the advertisement we get on the front page of
the paper every day.
Mi-. Rick. What do they advertise?
Mr. Inc. "All the late results, by courtesy of the Howard Sports."
Mr. Rice. So. you give it to them free?
Mr. Inc. That is right.
Mr. Rice. A.nd this Goldstein can't be found. He is 03.
Do von know any other numbers that are on? How about code
No. LI?
Mr. Inc. I think 17 would be WMAR. Then I think there is a
21
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 81
Mr. Rice. How about 12 before we get to 21. Joseph Ridge?
Mr. Txo. That is right, Xo. 12.
Mr. Rice. He pays $25?
Mr. Inc. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Xow we find that apparently is a phony name or phony
address. There is no individual by that name who could be located
at .">7 08 Eastern Avenue, which was the address furnished by you.
Mr. Inc. That was the address that was given to us. Let's put it
that way. Mr. Rice. Everything that was furnished to you was fur-
nished in good faith. That is the way we have to take it.
Mr. Rice. Xow then. 21. you say I
Mr. Inc. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Do you know the name on that \
Mr. Inc. Xo: I do not,
Mr. Rice. It is just an absolute blank on that ?
Mr. Inc. Twenty-one, and then there is another one there; 31, I
think.
Mr. Rice. And this is an absolute blank \
Mr. Ixg. That is right.
Mr. Rice. You don't have the remotest notion who those people
are?
Mr. Ixg. Xot that could be used ; no, sir.
Mr. Rice. World-wide Xews has 109?
Mr. Inc. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And they pay varying amounts. Thev paid at one time
$160 a week ?
Mr. Inc. That is right. Just as we said to you before, Mr. Rice, we
try to get as much of a return as the traffic will bear. If they run
into, shall we say, times when they don't have the money, we have to
lower their rate for them.
Mr. Rice. What are they paying now ?
Mr. Ixg. At the present time, for the last 3 or 4 weeks, we have
not received a payment.
Mr. Rice. What is their weekly rate now \
Mr. Ixg. That is $250.
Mr. Rice. That is for the telephone?
Mr. Ixg. That is the one subscriber.
Mr. Rice. Thev also have a ticker ; don't they ?
Mr. Ixg. Xo.
Mr. Rice. They take everything over the telephone?
Mr. Ixg. That is right.
Mr. Rice. How about the Evening Sun; do they have a number?
Mr. Ixg. The Evening Sun — I don't know what number they are.
They make their remittance by cheek, and it is listed as the Evening
Sun Papers.
Mr. Rice. How much do they pay \
Mr. Ixg. It is $10 a month.
Mr. Rice. Why don't they get it free?
Mr. Ixg. Well, it goes right back, Mr. Rice, to trying to get what
you can get.
Mr. Rice. Do they put '"By courtesy of Howard Sports'' on their
front page?
Mr. Ixg. They are supposed to put the box on the front, too, sir.
Mr. Rice. You give it to the Xews free and the Sun pays $10 ?
82 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Inc. We were able to get $10, Mr. Rice; so we got it.
Mr. Rice. You pick up the News in Maryland, New Jersey, Dela-
ware, and Florida \
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. If you did get subscribers, you would distribute from
Maryland south \
Mr. Ing. To Georgia.
Mr. Kick. Suppose a subscriber wanted to do business with you
from Florida.
Mr. Ing. We can't put a wire in Florida. There is a law prohibit-
ing that now.
Mr. Rice. Suppose they were from Alabama?
Mr. Ing. No; we don't go into Alabama. We stay within our terri-
tory, which has always been recognized as Maryland, Virginia, North
Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia — that far.
Mr. Rice. Who handles New Jersey, a similar company up there?
Mr. Ing. No. sir. Do you mean furnishing news up there?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Ing. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever hear of Metro-Globe ?
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You don't know who does that?
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Suppose a customer from New Jersey were to get in touch
with you and wanted to obtain the news up there, what would happen ?
Mr. Ing. We would just tell him that we couldn't supply him.
Mr. Rice. What would be the reason for that?
Mr. Ing. Because we don't go into New Jersey.
Mr. Rice. Why not?
Mr. Ing. We just never have. We stay in Maryland and south.
Mr. Rice. Who arranged that territorial limitation?
Mr. Ing. Nobody arranged it, Mr. Rice; it has just been that way
as long as I know of.
Mr. Rice. That is not a matter of agreement, that territorial limi-
tation?
Mr. Ing. No.
Mr. Rice. You are sure about that ?
Mr. Ing. As far as I know, no, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you know what would happen to you if you took a
customer from New Jersey?
Mr. Ing. I don't imagine anything would happen to us.
Senator Hunt. Is there any company that conflicts in the terri-
tories that you serve?
Mr. Ing. As I understand it, there is a company that puts out news
in New Jersey, but who they are, I don't know.
Senator Hunt. How about the States where you serve ; are there
other companies?
Mr. Ing. Not to my knowledge.
Senator Hunt. In other words, this territory is assigned to you?
M r. Ing. That is the territory that we have always had and we stay
right in those States.
Senator Hunt. There is a mutual understanding between other
companies and youreselves as to what areas you will serve. Who are
the other companies?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 83
Mr. Ing. That is what I say, Senator. I don't know who any other
companies are. Our territory, as I say, runs from Maryland south.
Mr. ItiCE. Suppose a customer in Maryland wanted to subscribe to
the news service in New Jersey, could that be done ?
Mr. Ing. Do you mean and receive the news in New Jersey ?
Mr. Rice. No ; receive the news in Maryland.
Mr. Ing. If he is in the State of Maryland, certainly we will supply
him.
Mr. Rice. Suppose he wants to buy from someone outside the St ate
and not you ? Suppose he wants to buy from Metro-Globe ?
Mr. Ing. As far as I know, we don't know of anybody doing that.
Mr. Rice. Suppose you found out that someone was doing that ?
Mr. Ing. I wouldn't know, Mr. Rice, how to explain that to you,
what would be the procedure, because I wouldn't— Mr. Bilson would
probably get that. I mean I don't know what he would do.
M r. Rice. That would go to the complaint department ; wouldn't it ?
Mr. Ixg. I imagine it would be a complaint. I mean if somebody
else were serving where we should have customers.
Senator Hunt. Just a minute. I don't like to doubt your word,
but I do not believe you are telling us the truth. I think these terri-
tories are assigned. I think you know it; I think you are prohibited
or forbidden from getting into conflicting territories.
Why don't you give us the benefit of the whole story ? We want to
try to get to the bottom of this type of business.
Mr. Ixg. Well, I will tell you, Senator. I have been to several
questionings here, in Chicago. I was over here to the Federal grand
jury a couple years ago, as well as the Prince Georges County Grand
Jury, and this is the first time that that has been said.
Senator Hunt. I said that is my opinion.
Mr. Ing. That is right. Now, Senator, I am trying to give you, as
I have done with Mr. Rice when he came into the office, every bit
of cooperation that I can give you, and any question that I can answer
to my knowledge, I will answer.
Senator Hunt. It is a self-evident fact that there is a reason for
this type of allocation of territory by States, as between you and
other like companies. What we are trying to find out is, Where is that
decided and who makes up the charts and who rules the over-all
picture ?
Mr. Ing. Now, as far as the Howard Sports Daily is concerned,
Senator, we rule our own picture. Now, this company that Mr. Rice
named in New Jersey, or Pennsylvania, wherever it is, I haven't heard
of that company.
Now, there is a company in New York State. Offhand, I can't think
of the name of that company.
Mr. Rice. Empire?
Mr. Ing. Is that the company? Empire, then.
Whether their circuit comes down into there or not, I couldn't say.
Senator Hunt. Let me ask you another question : You apparently
serve only two customers in Georgia ?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Senator Hunt. Are all other companies excluded from Georgia, or
are other companies serving Georgia ?
Mr. Ing. I don't know of any other subscribers in Georgia. If there
were any other subscribers in Georgia, I imagine they would contact
us, because our circuit goes right down into Georgia.
84 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Hunt. It would seem that the type of service you give
wouldn't be limited to two customers in Georgia.
Mr. [ng. Well, we don't have any in South Carolina.
.Mr. Moser. Have you ever had anybody in South Carolina ask for
your service \
Mr. Ing. We have had subscribers in South Carolina.
Mr. Moser. Have you ever turned anybody down, there?
Mr. Ing. No. The man was on service, and he asked for service
to be suspended.
Mr. Moser. When did he do that \
Mr. Ing. If you will look on that list, you will see it. The name
is Barnes. That was the 2d day of April of this year.
Mr. Moser. If another sports news service like yours should come
into Georgia and try to get one of your customers away, what would
your read ion be?
Mr. Ixg. One of our customers?
Mr. Moser. Yes.
Mr. Ixg. You say one of the customers that we have on there now,
they tried to get those away?
Mr. Moser. Tried to give them a better rate, for example.
Mr. Ixg. Then you would have to try to meet competition ; wouldn't
you, with the rate, if you could? If you could afford to supply them
for that.
Mr. Moser. With whom would you take it up.
Mr. Ixg. What do you mean?
Mr. Moser. Suppose someone else in the same business with a dif-
ferent territory came in and tried to get one of your Georgia customers
■away from you.
Mr. [ng. We would take it up with the subcriber. When he was
going off service, we would ask what the reason was and he would say,
•"Well. I can get it cheaper from somebody else."
Mr. Moser. Then what would you do?
Mr. Ing. We would try to meet the competition.
Mr. Moser. 1 )id you ever have that happen?
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. You never have?
Mr. Ing. Not to our knowledge; no.
Mr. Moser. You have never had anybody come into your territory?
Mr. Ing. To my knowledge, no.
It is much easier to have your own existing circuit and put a cus-
tomer on that one than it is to start up what would eventually be an
existing service. The cost is so much higher.
Mr. Rice. Since the time we spoke to you before, have Egner and
Mangaii been oil' your payroll?
Mr. 1n<;. Not Mangan. Egner has.
Mr. Rice. Egner has?
Mr. [ng. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How long was he off?
Mr. Ixg. He is off right now.
Mr. Rice. He is off right now ?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Kick. Is he working now, do you know?
M r. Ing. I couldn't tell you. He is off, now. I know he got married
in Chicago and I t hink he wanted to stay out there. What he is doing,
I don't know.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 85
Mr. Rice. Has Mangan been on your payroll ever since We talked to
him before?
Mr. Inc. I think so; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Has he been back working for Illinois Sports during that
time ?
Mr. Ixg. Xot to my knowledge; no.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of Illinois Sports News?
Mr. Ing. Oh. sure, I have heard of Illinois Sports : sure.
Mr. Rice. Who are some of your competitors in this business?
Mr. Ing. Well, the Worldwide News could be considered in competi-
tion with us.
Mr. Rice. Worldwide News certainly couldn't be a competitor.
Mr. Ixg. Not as far as the printer circuit is concerned. Now which
are you talking about, now I In the city or on the printer circuit '.
.Mr. Rice. On any part of your territory.
Mr. Ing. The Worldwide News gives out our results, too.
Mr. Rice. They won't give it out unless you give it to them.
Mr. Ing. We gather the news in Baltimore.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any competitors who are in a position to
give out the news" without getting it from you, in your territory ?
Mr. Ing. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Rice. You never had any; did you?
Mr. Ing. I don't know of any ; no, sir.
Mr. Rice. You say you have four telephone customers or maybe
six at the present time?
Mr. Ing. I think that is the right number, Mr. Rice.
Mr. Rice. What does your telephone bill run per month, approxi-
mately ?
Mr. Ing. You only have the toll charges there?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Ing. The bills vary. Mr. Rice, according to what calls we have
to make to get the news.
Mr. Rice. Let us take an example. Do you pay your telephone
bill with one check?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. That includes all your local service?
Mr. Ing. That includes the local service, toll calls, and everything.
Mr. Rice. What did that run for the last month?
Mr. Ing. Last month, I w7ould say that — no, I wouldn't want to
be put to a guess, Mr. Rice.
Mr. Rice. These telephone bills that we have here : February 1951,
for example, runs $1,324.
Mr. Ing. That is the toll charges. That is right.
Mr. Rice. The tolls are only $936. Directory advertising, private
lines, and service charges ; that whole business.
Is that a representative month; $1,300 a month?
Mr. Ing. No. The toll charges are what made that bill so high
that month.
Mr. Rice. You say they run less than that most of the time?
Mr. Ing. Oh, yes.
Mr. Rice. The reason for the heavy toll charges in the winter is
because you are getting it from Florida?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
86 ORGANIZED CRIME EN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. You have a maximum number of six, I guess, local cus-
tomers?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Hick. Who are on this $25, $30, or $40 a week?
Mr. I\c That is right.
Mr. Rick. I see here you have 15 trunk lines going into 631 Munsey
Building; is that right?
Mr. Inc. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Why is that?
Mr. Ing. That is a keyboard that is in there.
Mr. Rice. Why do you need 15 trunks if you have 6 customers?
Mr. Inc. Well, I will tell you, Mr. Rice. We will have to take the
whole board out. The board is set up as one unit.
Mr. Rice. Now, physically, where is your telephone board located —
in what room?
Mr. Ing. In 631.
Mr. Rice. You have in there a table turret. That is a switchboard ;
I take it?
Mr. Ing. That is that little key box that is in on the desk.
Mr. Rice. You have 15 trunk lines and 13 auxiliary lines coining
in there?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Five extensions, three six-line single-sided lamp and
key cabinets. What are those ?
Mr. Inc. That is the little cabinet that I was telling you about.
We have one of those on the desk, and we have two of them out in the
other office.
Mr. Rice. You have three conference features. What are those?
Mr. Ing. That is in that cabinet.
Mr. Rice. Is one of those conference features to hook up calls
together \
Mr. Ing. By that I think they mean the two keys can be thrown in
toget her on the front office desk.
Mr. Rice. No, I think it means you can take two or three trunk
calls and put them all into a conference call and all the parties can talk
together at the same time.
Mr. Ing. That is on the desk in there.
Mr. Rtce. How many people can you get together in a conference
call under this arrangement?
Mr. Ing. Actually, we can get 15 together.
Mr. Rick. You can get 15 together?
Mr. Ing. But you couldn't hear. There is not enough volume to
carry through the 15 keys without yelling. You could open the win-
dow ;iii(l you wouldn't need it.
Mr. Rick. Is it possible to work all 15 lines?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kick. Have you ever done that?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rick. Are you doing that now?
Mr. Ing. At times, but very, very seldom because we do not have the
customers.
Mr. Rice. You only have four or five now ?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
ORGANIZED CRIME EN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 87
Mr. Rice. At the present arrangement do you have any set-up
where you announce it through these open lines?
Mr. Ing. The four customers, if they happen to be on when a race is
run, which is very seldom. If the four ever came in at one time they
could all be thrown in.
Mr. Rice. Do you have an employee who is calling the race as it
comes in?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. He calls it out loud and it goes into the phone ?
Mr. Ing. It goes to the Baltimore News; it goes to the Worldwide
News.
Mr. Rice. Any customer who calls in at that time gets it ?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. How many employees do you have on the payroll, Mr.
Ing?
Mr. Ing. Not counting the track crew, now, I think it is 11 or 12.
I am not sure of the exact amount. I could name them.
Mr. Rice. Do you have a list of those ?
Mr. Ing. Not with me.
Mr. Rice. Could you get that?
Mr. Ing. Surely.
Mr. Rice. What do those employees do, briefly ? Break them down
into groups.
Mr. Ing. We have two telegraph operators. We have a teletype
operator.
Mr. Rice. He is sending out on the tickers ?
Mr. Ing. That is right. That is three.
Mr. Rice. What else?
Mr. Ing. We have two men in the scratch sheet office.
Mr. Rice. Where is the scratch sheet office located \
Mr. Ing. In the Munsey Building.
Mr. Rice. Same floor?
Mr. Ing. That is right. We have two in there and we have two
clerks out in the other office.
Mr. Rice. They are taking money from the customers?
Mr. Ing. No; the two clerks are out there, one of them is giving
out any results that may come in, and the other
Mr. Rice. They are handling phones?
Mr. Ing. That is right. Mr. Bilson and I are in the other office.
Mr. Rice. Who is the one wdio does the calling of the races ? Who
are those two clerks ?
Mr. Ing. They alternate.
Mr. Rice. What are their names?
Mr. Ing. Toye is one, and Wyma is another.
Mr. Rice. What number do the customers who have the code num-
bers call in on?
Mr. Ing. Do you mean in the office ?
Mr. Rice. Yes. Suppose you gave a man number 13. What num-
ber is he supposed to call ?
Mr. Ing. On the big board, that is 13 trunk line. It is Mulberry
7373.
Mr. Rice. If he calls in and that number is busy, it jumps over to
the next one ?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
88 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. When was the last time you bad any revenue from that?
Mr. Inc. From that \
Mr. Kick. From that : yes.
Mr. Inc. That was in L949; wasn't it?
Mr. Kick. I don't know.
Mr. Inc. That is when the wire was taken down.
Mr. Kick. That is the last time?
Mr. I xo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kick. Do yon make up a monthly P and L statement — profit
and loss \
Air. Inc. Xo.
Mr. Kick. When do yon make a financial statement?
Mr. Inc. We have a weekly report. That is nil the "ins and outs"
and with the balance left.
Mr. Rice. All the ins and outs?
Mr. Inc.. In other words, all the revenue taken in, all the expenses
paid out. and the balance is there.
.Mr. Kick. That is supported by vouchers?
Mr. Inc. Everything that is paid out is paid by check. All ex-
penses are paid by check.
Mr. Rice. Is the telephone service for any individual outside of
the Munsey Building paid?
Mr. Ing. Do yon mean are any bills paid for anybody?
Mr. Rice. For instance, your home telephone.
Mr. Ing. Mine is ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rick. Your home telephone?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir. And so is Mr. Bilson's.
M r. Rice. And so was Roscoe Odle's at one time.
Mr. Inc. Only when he made some calls for us, as well as I can
remember. That has been some time ago, where we have ever paid
an)' for Mr. Odle. That has been a long time ago.
Mr. Rick. Did any other employees have their telephones paid?
Mr. Ing. No. The only time that a telephone bill wTould ever be
paid for any employee other than Mr. Bilson or myself is if his phone
was used for some reason, like being out of town — like we were out of
town or something and wanted to call and get any — well, I mean ask
what went on or anyf hing, then we would pay it because it would not be
fair for him to pay those toll charges.
Mr. Rick. Do you get an automobile allowance?
Mr. Ing. I do, yes, sir.
Mr. Rick. How much is that?
Mr. Ing. $20.
Mr. Rick. A week?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And does Mr. Bilson get an automobile allowance?
Mr. Ixg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How much does his amount to?
Mr. Inc. $25.
Mr. Rice. $25 a week?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. How about Maclnerney ?
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Kick. Does anyone else get an automobile allowance?
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 89
Mr. Rice. What do you use your car for ?
Mr. Inc. Well, Mr. Rice, to tell you the truth I very seldom use
mine. If I was able to get an allowance for my car, I am certainly
going to take it.
Mr. Rice. Who gives you that allowance?
Mr. Ixg. The company.
Mr. Rice. The company ?
Mr. Ixg. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Is that charged off in your tax return as an operating
cost of the business %
Mr. Ixg. No, sir. I pay tax on that.
Mr. Rice. Wait a minute. I am talking about in your weekly ins
and outs.
Mr. Ixg. Oh, yes, that is marked off each week as a business expense
each week, yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you understand that, Senator, he charges $20 a week,
and Bilson charges $25 a week for automobile expenses, and he says he
could not use his very often, and 1 don't imagine Mr. Bilson does
either, and both of them charge that in the weekly expenses as an
operating expense to the company and take the tax deduction on the
company return for that.
Do you get any other expenses, your house, rent, or light, or any-
thing?
Mr. Ixg. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about Mr. Bilson ?
Mr. Ixg. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any other office space in the Munsey Build-
ing besides the sixth floor?
Mr. Ixg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is there, and where is it?
Mr. Ixg. The eighth floor.
Mr. Rice. What is on the eighth floor?
Mr. Ixg. That is where the scratch sheet is compiled and printed.
Mr. Rice. What rooms do you have there ?
Mr. Ixg. 827.
Mr. Rice. Is the printing equipment actually there?
Mr. Ixg. That is right.
Mr. Rice. It is actually printed there ?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. You run a direct line up to there?
Mr. Ixg. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And you have no participation whatsoever in the World
Wide News?
Mr. Ixg. None whatsoever.
Mr. Rice. This is a copy of the Howard Sports Daily that I hold
in my hand.
Mr. Ixg. That is right.
Mr. Rice. It is printed there daily?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. It sells for 25 cents?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. How is that distributed?
Mr. Ing. We have three drivers. They take those out and put them
on the stands every day.
90 ORGANIZED CRIME rN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. Are they on your payroll?
Mr. Ing. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about the truck equipment?
Mr. Ing. The which?
Mr. Rice. Do you own the trucks they drive?
Mr. Ing. No; they use their own cars.
Mr. Rice. They distribute it to the newsstands.
Mr. Ing. Thai is right.
Mr. Moser. In what cities does that go?
Mr. Ing. Baltimore only.
Mr. Rick. There seems to be some question about how many tele-
phone numbers you have there. Do you know the total number of
telephones that you have?
Mr. Ing. We have the 15 trunk lines in the board. That is the 15-
keyboard. Then you have the 3 auxiliary lines. That is 7388, 89
and 90.
Mr. Rice. Mulberry?
Mr. Ing. That is right. Then we have a Plaza 2315.
Air. Rice. What is the Plaza 2315 ?
Air. Ing. That is in the key cabinet on the front office desk.
Mr. Rice. That is a direct line?
Mr. Ing. A real telephone.
Mr. Rice. You can call in on that from the outside and go ri^ht to
the front office? to
Mr. Ing. That is right. And then you have the telephones around
in the scratch-sheet office.
Mr. Rice. How many are those ?
Mr. Ing. I think there is close to 13 or 15 there.
Mr. Rice. Are those separate lines?
Mr. Ing. Do you mean are they billed separately?
Mr. Rice. No, can individuals be brought in on them?
Mr. Ing. Individually, yes, but there is no way to hook two together
or anything with those.
Mr. Rice. They are just 15 separate forms?
Mr. Ing. Thirteen or fifteen.
Mr. Rice. They all have different numbers, don't they 2
Mr. Ing. Yes. They are billed under Plaza 2200.
Mr. Rice. But they have a number of different numbers?
Mr. Ing. They are all different. There is no sequence there. There
is no jump from one phone to the other.
Mr. Rice. Why is that, in case the switchboard cuts out?
Mr Ing. That is where the scratch-sheet calls are taken. People
who buy the scratch sheet and want to get a result, they call in
Mr. Rice. They call in there and get the same results-
Mr. Inc. I think the number is on the front of the sheet
Mr. Rice. Plaza 2200?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What are the arrangements? The person pays 25 cents
for the scratch sheet, and then what?
Mr. Ing. They call in.
Mr. Rice. Do they have to give a code?
Mr. Ing. The numbers are different on the scratch sheet
Mr. Rice. Every day?
Mr. Ing. Oh, yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 91
Mr. Rice. They have to know what number to call.
Mr. Ing. In other words, you call in for a result and the clerk
who answers the phone will say "1, 2, and 3." Well, you have the
scratch sheet and the Howard numbers are the numbers they use.
Mr. Rice. They pay nothing for that service except the cost of the
scratch sheet?
Mr. Ing. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And the numbers of those do not coincide with the track
numbers ?
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. So that you have to have this. To get the winner they
have to use the numbers which you arbitrarily fix?
Mr. Ing. The Howard numbers, that is right.
Senator Hunt. About what are the net profits of the Howard
Sports Daily a year?
Mr. Ing. Senator, just as I explained in Chicago, the net profits —
now I don't know just how to put this for you — at the end of the year,
this working balance is kept and the balance of the money, if any,
would be sent to Continental as reimbursement for possibly the weeks
when we could not pay for the news.
Senator Hunt. Would you give me a little more detail on that ? In
sending it to the Continental Press, are you sending it to them as a
member, a holder of stock in your corporation, or are you sending it
to them for services rendered to you, or are you sending it to them for,
third, administrative objection? By that I mean, their telling you
how to run your business ?
Mr. Ing. No, sir; we are sending that to them in part payment of
the news. As I explained to Mr. Rice, if we would have to pay Con-
tinental on the same basis that they pay us, we could not survive. We
would be out of business. We could not pay that way.
Senator Hunt. Now in your income tax return at the end of the
year do you file that as a corporation ?
Mr. Ing. The company, yes, sir.
Senator Hunt. Does the Continental Press include in their income
tax return the payments that you make to them?
Mr. Ing. Now. Senator, I could not say what the Continental does.
I have no way of knowing what Continental does.
Now the amount of money that Continental sends us is included in
our income.
Senator Hunt. Now give us a description of the contract that you
have with Continental.
Mr. Ing. The only contract is a verbal one. As I said before, Mr.
Bilson and Mr. Lloyd agreed on that figure for the news from the
tracks that we were to gather the news from.
Senator Hunt. Now there appears to be roughly 30 such companies
as j^ours over which Continental Press has jurisdiction. Do you mean
to say there is no written agreement at all as between the Continental
Press and Howard Sports Daily, and the same would prevail with
all the other 29 ?
Mr. Ing. I could not answer for the other ones, but there is no writ-
ten agreement for Howard Sports Daily. I cannot answer for any
other company or concern, or Continental.
Senator Hunt. How of (en do you have communications with Con-
tinental with reference to administration of your company?
Mr. Ing. Administration of our company ?
Senator Hunt. Yes.
92 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
££?] hv^Do^entatives of Continental Press call at your
""'m ' w''11 Nn sir- thev do not. I do not know when any representa-
* ';;/ Continen J w2 I* b there and then I do not think * was
,, v policy of the business or anything of that sort
Se • t r IiTNT. How often do you have correspondence ™th the
anv territories. , ,.
Senator Hunt. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moser. May I ask a question?
VLt Mo?ERYS I understand it, your company pays to Continental
ea^ye^Xamonnt it has left over after having paid its own salaries
and administrative expenses.
& fcf ThTXle amount it has left over, it turns over to
thMr? I *G. ( Hher than, we will say, enough to carry us on for the next
week, with anv current expenses.
\\ I/ ^Thtt G^nT £ SS words, we do not send then, eyery-
to increase your own salaries. Let us say, you increase them by 20
percent I L you do that without consulting Continental?
Mr' \|,'s, a."('an you increase your salaries to the point where you
T^S "yofdo that you will wipe out other things
alonu; with it.
5!*,:: toTm^ny^ are not going to be able to pay other current
H5bM«££ Suppose you make enough money so you ran pay your-
selves enough salary so that the amount Continental Press gets is zero.
Snnito-e von iust lixed it like that \ .
Vv ixo [Jdo not think that would be too good a business.
Mr. Moser. Not for the Continental Press.
Mr. I no. Nor for us either because they could shut us off with tne
news.
Mr Moser. They could stop giving you the news?
Mr Ing Other than the race .tracks where we gather our own. .
Mr Moser. How do von know how high yon ran go in increasing
bJSd '"'n,,:^, he enrren, opening expenses will allow, along with
the revenue that von take in.
Mr. Moser. Who sets those bounds'
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 93
Mr. Ing. As it is right now, the revenue is so low that it would be
impossible to do that. .
Mr. Moser. Wh< > set s the bounds that you have to stay within i 1 ou
say you have to keep it within bounds.
Mr. Ing. We do.
Mr. Moser. Who sets the bounds?
Mr. Ing. We do. .
Mr. Moser. Now you say that you charge your customers according
to what the traffic will bear?
Mr. Ing. That is right. a .... ,
Mr Moser. How do you know what the traffic will bear?
M v. Ing. We try to get as much as we can. Then, if the subscriber
cannot pay that, then we have to come down.
Mr. Moser. What do you do, do you dicker with them over the
telephone ?
Mr. Ing. Not especially dicker with them, but a person from out of
town calls up and wants'service, all right ; we take into consideration
roughly how far from the sending point, which is Baltimore, how
far away that is, to determine how high the charges would run to
service the man, and then start there at a figure and quote him a price :
"Well, all right, your rate will be $100 a week, plus tax."
Now if he said that he could not pay that and we did not feel that
we could make any money with the charges and all at less than that,
then we would have to let it stand that way.
Mr. Moser. He cannot operate unless you give him the service,
can he ?
Mr. Ing. I do not know about that.
Mr. Moser. You are the one who supplies the territory exclusively,
are you not ?
Mr. Ing. As far as I know ; yes.
Mr. Moser. Then he cannot operate unless you let him.
Mr. Ing. Well, I would not put it that way.
The man calls us and wants to subscribe to the service. We have
never yet held a cost so prohibitive that the man, if he wanted the
service in the beginning, refused afterward.
Now by that I mean we do not set prohibitive amounts on the cost
of the service, but we do try to get as much for the service as we can.
Mr. Moser. Do you find out from him what his business is ; how
much it is?
Mr. Ing, No.
Mr. Moser. You do not know how much his business is ?
Mr. Ing. We would not have any idea.
Mr. Moser. Do you find out what kind of a person he is ?
Mr. Ing. No.
Mr. Moser. Whether his credit is good? You do not investigate
him ?
Mr. Ing. He sends his check in advance.
Mr. Moser. You do not investigate him at all ?
Mr. Ing. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. You do not know how much his volume of business is?
Mr. Ing. I do not know anything about his business.
Mr. Moser. Then I do not see how you know what the traffic will
bear.
85277 — 51 — pt. 17 7
94 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Ing. All I can tell you is that, like I say, you try to figure the
cost to you. If there are any other subscribers in his immediate
vicinity or in his State, you keep his right in line with the rest of them.
Mr. Moser. You keep him right in line with the rest of them?
Mr. Ing. With any other subscriber in that locality, or that State.
In other words, for instance, in Augusta. (ia., we have two subscrib-
ers there. We had one and his rate was $108. Then this other man
applied for service. Then his rate was $108, too.
Mr. Moser. Now in Baltimore you have a lot of telephone sub-
scribers ?
Mr. Ing. Not a lot of them; no, sir.
Mr. Moser. You have some. Do they all pay the same rate ?
Mr. Ing. No. Not now they do not.
Mr. Moser. They pay a different rate?
Mr. Ing. Now they do; yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. How do you arrive at those different rates?
Mr. Ing. We take anything we can get right now. With four
telephone subscribers, we would have to take what price we can get.
We start at $40. If the man says, "No; I cannot pay that," then all
right, we have to try to get the best that we can.
Senator Hunt. I want to ask just one more, question : Could your
company, the Howard Sports Daily, exist if you had no business rela-
tions of any kind with Continental Press?
Mr. Ing. Do you mean if we did not buy the news from Continental^
do you mean ?
Senator Hunt. If you had no intercourse in a business way at all
with Continental Press, could your company exist?
Mr. Ing. I don't say uNo," because we could not gather the news at
all race tracks. We are not so equipped and we do not have the help
or men to gather the news at all race tracks.
Senator Hunt. Are there any other questions?
Mr. Rice. I have no further questions. Only one thing, Mr. Ing:
We would like to make an arrangement to keep in touch with you,
to get the names of the employees and to take a look at your weekly
""ins and outs'' as you call them, which include your expenses, and also
to take a look at your copies of your Federal tax return.
Is thai agreeable?
Mr. Ing. Surely.
Mr. Rice. We can have someone get in touch with you.
Mr. Ing. They are right there at 631, any time you want to come up
to see them.
Senator Hunt. Thank you, Mr. Ing.
Mr. Moser. Mr. Chairman, this committee has hearings in Florida
on June 21 and June 22. On June '2'2. there appeared before the com-
mittee Lester C. Boggs, the mayor of Hollywood, Ma., who testified
with regard to his income and other matters.
On Friday, June 29, Mr. Boggs5 attorney, Mr. 1). T. Ellis, Jr., of
the firm of Ellis & Spencer, 1924 Boulevard, Hollywood, Fla., P. O.
Box No. 6, came to my office and brought in an affidavit signed by
Mr. Boggs, in which he states in substance that he was confused at
the time he test died, and made a number of errors with regard to the
amount of his income, due to the fact that he did not have his books
nor his accountant present.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 95
The affidavit is made under oath and reference to this committee
and purports to be binding upon him as testimony submitted to this
committee.
I offer this affidavit in evidence, and I also offer as exhibits to be
incorporated by reference in the record, but not to be printed in the
record, two exhibits attached to the affidavit, entitled "Exhibit A"
and "Exhibit B."
I promised Mr. Ellis that I would offer these in evidence as part
of the record.
Senator Hunt. Without objection, they will be received and made
a part of the record.
(The affidavit referred to is as follows :)
Affidavit and Statement of Lester C. Boggs, Mayor of the City of Hollywood
State of Florida,
County of Broward, City of Hollywood, ss:
Before me, the undersigned authority, duly authorized to administer oaths,
personally appeared Lester C. Boggs, of 2301 Lee Street, Hollywood, Broward
County, Fla., who being by me first duly sworn upon his oath says :
1. That he is the duly elected, qualified, and acting mayor of the city of
Hollywood, Fla., and he has been a member of the city commission of the city
of Hollywood. Fla.. each year commencing with and since the year 1935.
2. That in the early morning of Friday, the 22d day of June A. D. 1951, at
approximately 12:45 a. m.. he was served with a subpena to appear before the
committee of the United States Senate investigating crime conditions in the
United States, especially with reference to interstate crime, for him to appear
and testify before said committee Thursday, the 21st day of June, at 9 : 30 a. m.r
and to bring with him any and all income-tax returns and books, and records
of his business. Affiant interpreted said subpena to mean his appearance at
9:30 a. in. on said Friday, June 22, 1951, and he appeared at said committee
hearing in the courthouse at Miami, Fla., and was present at the opening of said
hearing at 9 : 30 upon said date, June 22, 1951.
Affiant had no time or opportunity to check the records of his business or to
confer with his son, Arthur Boggs. who keeps said records.
3. Affiant further says he was duly sworn to testify the truth during the
morning of said hearing, and delivered to said committee the only records which
he could obtain previous to said hearing, to wit, his income-tax returns for the
years 1945 through 1950, inclusive, and certain of his bank statements from
the Dania Bank. Affiants main business consists in the manufacture and in-
stallation of septic tanks and sanitation business in Hollywood and South
Broward County, Fla., and a small hog farm west of Hollywood, Fla.
4. Affiant desires 'to clarify his testimony made at said hearing of said Senate
committee in the following particulars :
(a) Affiant, after he stated he was in the septic tank and sanitation business
and could only furnish estimates of his income, was asked by Richard Moser,
chief counsel for said committee, to estimate the number of septic tanks he
manufactured and installed per month of the type for the average home.
Affiant estimated 15 septic tanks per month, which he had stated cost approxi-
mately $81 each. Affiant intended to estimate 15 such septic tanks per week,
and affiant now ascertains that during the year 1950 bis business manufactured
and installed, of all varieties, about an average of 11 septic tanks per week.
Affiant further says that his business consists not only in manufacturing and
installing septic tanks, but in general sanitation business, and constructing
sewers, disposal fields, and in general repair work of such nature.
(ft) Affiant stated at said hearing his source of income was said septic-tank
and sanitation business and said hog farm. Affiant has small income from other
sources, to wit, salary as city commissioner of Hollywood of $50 per month,
interest on several small mortgages, and some rent income.
(c) Affiant attaches hereto, marked "Fxhibit A," and makes the same a part
hereof and swears to the truth thereof, a statement prepared from his Federal
income-tax returns for the years 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, and 1950, showing
his income from all sources during said years. Affiant says from broadcasts
over the radio and television of said hearing, and newspaper stories and com-
96 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
ments following said bearing, the general public has gained the impression that
affiant during said years obtained from his septic-tank business a profit of
approximately $500,000 during said 6 years. Affiant offered at said hearing to
read into the record not only the gross receipts of his said business but the net
income derived therefrom for each of said years, but was advised the committee
was not interested in the net income, after he had given it for the first year
only. L945.
((/) Affiant attaches hereto a statement in abstract form showing details of
his business for the year 1950, so that it can be shown the source of his income
in said business and how it is derived. Said statement is marked "Exhibit B,"
and is made a part hereof and affiant swears to the truth thereof.
5. Affiant further says that as soon as he learned testimony had been directed
against him on June 21, 1951, by certain residents of the city of Hollywood before
said committee, he had determined decidedly to request the privilege of appear-
ance before said committee to state the facts concerning affiant and his business.
Affiant intended to ascertain the facts in detail and furnish full information to
said committee. At said hearing affiant offered to said committee, its agents,
investigators, and employees, full access to any and all records of the business
of said affiant. Onder the circumstances, when affiant was faced with the
battery of newspaper cameras, television cameras, and radio microphones, in
his said testimony affiant became confused, and so made the two noted mistakes
above ; his statement in his estimate of the amount of septic tanks manufactured
and installed per month of the small-home type, and the mistake in omitting to
state he derived income from his salary as city commissioner, from interest on
mortgages, and rent.
Affiant makes this statement under oath, and requests that the same be made
a part of the record of the said United States Senate investigation.
Affiant renews his invitation to the committee to make any and all investiga-
tions of his business records as to the source of his income, type of business
which he conducts and as to any and all matters of interest concerning him,
within the province and jurisdiction of said committee.
Further affiant saith naught.
Dated this 2Gth day of June, AD., 1951.
[seal] Lester C. Boggs.
Sworn to and subscribed before me this 26th day of June, A. D., 1951.
[seal] Dorothy J. Wiley,
Notary Public, State of Florida at large.
My commission expires January 18, 1952. Bonded by American Surety Co.
of New York.
(Whereupon, at 4:50 p. m., the committee adjourned, subject to
the call of the chairman.)
INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE
COMMERCE
MONDAY, JULY 9, 1951
United States Senate.
Special Committee To Investigate
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce,
Washington, D. C.
Executive Session
The committee met, pursuant to call of the chairman, at 2 : 15 p. m.,
in room P-36, United States Capitol, Senator Lester C. Hunt presiding.
Present: Senators O'Conor (chairman), Hunt (presiding), and
Tobey.
Also present : Richard G. Moser, chief counsel ; Murray Jackson
and Thomas S. Smith, investigators.
Senator Hunt. The committee will come to order.
May I ask who are the other four gentlemen, besides the witness?
Mr. Berman. This is Mr. Rover, of Washington. I am Paul
Berman. This is Mr. Levin, and this is Mr. Pechacek.
Senator Tobey. The witness has four lawyers ?
I suppose you are giving your services? [Laughter.]
Senator Hunt. Gentlemen, you are all welcome. Let me say. how-
ever, that we attempt to confine counsel's remarks directly to his client.
Would you stand, Mr. Goldberg, and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Goldberg. I do.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE GOLDBERG, BALTIMORE, MD., ACCOM-
PANIED BY PAUL BERMAN, LEO A. ROVER, SIGMUND LEVIN,
AND CLARENCE G. PECHACEK, ATTORNEYS
Mr. Rover. At the outset, Mr. Chairman, to save the record in this
case, I would like to make a point of no quorum and that, therefore,
the witness should not be required to answer questions.
Senator Hunt. We have the usual full committee action for the
subcommittee to meet?
Mr. Moser. Yes. This is a subcommittee.
Senator Hunt. The action of the full committee provides that if
one member of the committee is present that is considered a quorum.
Senator Tobey. May I make a comment to Mr. Rover \
97
98 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The thing thai tickles me and amuses my risibilities is that here is
a committee of the Senate sitting, and it does not make a difference
whether it is one member or five members, and the first thing you fel-
lows want to do is to come in and call a halt. Why don't you come in
and say, "We have nothing to conceal. Ask anything you want. AVe
are as clean as a hound's tooth. Go ahead and shoot."' Would that
not be better than coming in this way
Mr. Rover. I think the fault is the fault of Congress in not passing
a proper immunity statute.
Senator Tobet. I think the truth will always bear the test.
Mr. Rover. I beg your pardon?
Senator Tobet. I think the truth, will bear the test.
Mr. Rover. Maybe so.
Senator Tobet. My Lord, you come in, and the first crack you make
is "No quorum."
Mr. Rover. I think we are justified in making it, as lawyers. This
man has rights.
Senator Tobey. Sure he has got rights; so have the public got
rights.
Mr. Hover. All right.
Senator Hunt. All right, you go ahead; if counsel will proceed
with the questioning.
Mr. Moser. Mr. Goldberg, will you please state your full name?
Mr. Goldberg. George Goldberg.
Mr. Moser. What is your address?
Mr. Goldberg. 2305 Oca la Avenue.
Mr. Moser. Baltimore?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
Mi. Moser. Maryland?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Is that your residence address?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. It is not your business address?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you conduct any business from that address?
Mr. Rover. May I have that question, please?
Mr. Moser. Do you conduct any business at that address?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. No business at that address?
Mr. Goldberg. No.
Mr. Moser. You are, as I understand it — you were asked to produce
some records, pursuant to the subpena that has been served on you.
Mi-. Goldberg. T refuse to produce books, records, correspondence,
and documents called for in the subpena because to produce the same
may tend to incriminate me, and also because it violates my rights
against unreasonable search and seizure, which are protected by the
fourth amendment to the Constitution.
Senator Tobey. There is one distinction in that statement he makes,
Mr. Chairman, over the common herd that have been here. He says,
"It would tend to incriminate me." Most of them say, "It might tend
to incriminate me.'" That is getting along. I am grateful for that
progress.
Mr. Moser. Mr. Goldberg, then you refuse to produce the records
that we have subpenaed, is that correct?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 99
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir: on the grounds ■
Mr. Berman. Senator, I might say
Mr. Moser. Will you state your full name?
Mr. Berman. Paul Berman.
Mr. Moser. All right, Mr. Berman.
Mr. Berman. Senator, Mr. Goldberg said to produce it may tend
to incriminate him.
Senator Tobet. I see ; I thought he said it would.
Mr. Berman. No; it may.
Mr. Moser. Has there been any attempt to search and seize you
with respect to these records?
Mr. Goldberg. I couldn't say.
Mr. Moser. What did you say?
Mr. Goldberg. I couldn't say.
Mr. Moser. You do not know?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Has anybody come to your house to get the records?
Mr. Goldberg. I don't know.
Mr. Moser. Has anybody done any more than serve a subpena on
you requesting them?
Mr. Goldberg. I think they have gone to my lawyers to try to obtain
records.
Mr. Moser. To ask for them ?
Mr. Goldberg. I don't know what proceedings
Mr. Moser. Has there been any attempt to obtain these records
from you by force?
Mr. Goldberg. I can't answer that.
Mr. Moser. You do not know ? As far as you know there has been
none ; is that correct ?
Mr. Goldberg. I don't know.
Mr. Moser. As far as you know has there been any attempt of any
kind to obtain these records in any way except by the service of a
subpena asking for their production?
Mr. Goldberg. They tried to obtain the records from my attorneys.
Mr. Moser. Other than that you have no knowledge of any attempt
to obtain the records?
Mr. Goldberg. I have no knowledge of it.
Mr. Moser. Yes. And still you claim that our subpena demanding
the production of them constitutes unlawful search and seizure ; is that
your position?
(Mr. Goldberg nodding affirmatively.)
Mr. Moser. When you answer the questions, will you do it out loud
so that the stenographer can take it down ?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. We have asked you to produce records, and you claim
to produce them would expose you to self-incrimination?
Mr. Berman. No ; he said "may."
Mr. Moser. Expose you to self-incrimination?
Mr. Goldberg. May.
Mr. Moser. Is the crime that vou fear you would incriminate your-
self with regard to a Federal offense?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes.
Mr. Moser. It is a Federal offense?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes.
100 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
.Mi. Moser. Is it a State offense?
Mr. ( ioldberg. Federal.
Mr. Moser. Federal only.
Mr. Goldberg, with respect to the crime with respect to which you
fear incrimination, would you please tell us whether the offense
occurred more than 10 years ago?
Mr. Goldberg. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer?
Mr. Goldberg. On the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. M< iser. Did the offense occur more than 3 years ago ?
Mr. Goldberg. I won't answer that.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer it?
Mr. Goldberg. I refuse to answer on the ground it may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Moser. Did the offense occur more than 3 years ago?
Mr. ( rOLDBERG. 1 refuse to answer on the ground that it may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Moser. Mr. Goldberg, have you ever heard of the statute of
limitations as a bar to prosecution in Federal offenses?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Did you answer that question?
M.r. Goldberg. No, sir. I answered it "No, sir."
Mr. Moser. You do not know about the statute of limitations?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. You have four lawyers present. Will you please ask
them Tor advice with regard to the effect of the statute of limitations
with respect to the offense that you have in mind?
(Mr. Goldberg conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Goldberg. I conferred with my lawyers, and the answer is still
the same.
Mr. Moser. That you had never heard of the statute of limitations?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir; I had never heard of the statute of limita-
tions, and I refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. Did your lawyers advise you with respect to the
statute of limitations?
Mr. Rover. I don't think he has to answer that, Mr. Chairman.
It is a confidential communication between lawyer and client,
Mr. Moser. We have not asked you what communication you have
received from your lawyer. We have asked whether you have heard
of the statute of limitations.
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir; 1 have not.
Mi-. Moser. You have-not?
Mi-. Goldberg. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Have you consulted your lawyers with respect to that?
Mr. ( rOLDBERG. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. You have not? Do you refuse to consult them?
Mr. ( rOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. Moser. You do refuse to consult them.
Now. Mr. Goldberg, the purpose of this committee is to obtain
information with regard to crime, and we are not trying to get you
or gel anybody. We are trying to get information to be used by this
committee to submit legislation to Congress. Do you understand
that ? Your answer is "Yes" ?
Mr. Goldbi rg. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 101
Mr. Moser. You do understand that?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes.
Mr. Moser. Have you any knowledge regarding criminal activities
in the city of Baltimore on matters which would not incriminate you?
Mr. Goldberg. I refuse to answer on the around that it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer that question?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes.
Mr. Moser. Do you own an interest in a hotel that operates a
legitimate business?
Mr. Goldberg. I refuse to- answer that on the ground that it may-
tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Moser. Do you know of the Hotel Biltmore in Baltimore?
Mr. Goldberg. I refuse to answer that on the ground- it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Mosek. Mr. Goldberg, have you ever been convicted of any
crime ?
Mr. Goldberg. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer the question?
Mr. Goldberg. On the ground that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Moser. You understand that question correctly? I asked
whether you had ever been convicted of any crime. You under-
stood that I
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. What is his answer ?
Mr. Moser. He refuses to answer the question.
Mr. Goldberg. On the grounds that it may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Tobey. Of course, Mr. Chairman, if he has had a convic-
tion it is a matter of record. How could the record incriminate him ?
Mr. Moser. Well, his counsel knows that. They know that a convic-
tion is something you cannot claim a privilege on.
Mr. Rover. We do not know that at all. That is your contention ;
it is not our contention.
Senator Tobey. What I am getting at, Mr. Rover, is, let us assume
a hypothetical case, not the gentleman before us. If John Jones had
had a criminal record and had been convicted for it, it is a matter of
record. How could the testimony and affirmation that he had a
criminal record and convictions incriminate him on something else,
because manifestly in any other trial they would' bring out a man's
criminal record beyond any peradventure of doubt.
Mr. Moser. Mr. Goldberg, do you engage in any legitimate busi-
ness?
Mr. Goldberg. I refuse to answer that on the grounds it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Moser. Do you engage in any business which would not tend
to incriminate you?
Mr. Goldberg. I refuse to answer that on the grounds it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Moser. Do you know of any business activities in the city of
Baltimore of any kind carried on by you or by anyone else?
Mr. Goldberg. I refuse to answer that on the ground that it may
tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Moser. Do you know of any activity carried on by other people
in which you are not involved, and the revealing of which could not
incriminate you?
102 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Goldberg. I refuse to answer that on the ground that it may-
tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Moser. All right.
Now, I request that the Chair instruct the witness to answer all of
the questions to which he has given the answer that he refuses to an-
swer on the grounds of incrimination.
Senator Hunt. The chairman of the subcommittee directs the wit-
ness to answer all of the previously asked questions in which he has
refused to do so on the grounds that he may incriminate himself.
Mr. Goldberg. I refuse to answer on the ground it may tend to in-
criminate me.
M r. Moser. Mr. Goldberg, you have understood all of the questions,
have you?
Mr. Goldberg. I have.
Mr. Moser. You have? Do you want them repeated in order that
you will be sure to know what the questions are?
Mr. Goldberg. No.
-M p. Moser. You do not ; and you stand on your claim of self-incrim-
inat ion. stating that you know what the questions were and that you
understand them, is that correct?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Well, I think that is all we need from him.
Senator Hunt. All right, thank }7ou, Mr. Goldberg.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Berman. When I talked to Mr. Jackson, I think it was last
Thursday
Mr. Jackson. That is right.
Mr. Berman. I told Mr. Jackson that we had an appointment at 1
o'clock today with an internal revenue man to go over our income tax.
I was able to postpone that meeting at 1 o'clock today in order to be
here at 2, and that is why I did not know whether we would be here
today or not, when I spoke to you because I did not know whether it
was possible to postpone that, but as soon as I discovered it was, I
called your office.
Mr. Moser. Let us bring in Mr. King.
This is Willis M. King.
Senator Hunt. Mr. King, would you please stand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this committee will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. King. I do.
Senator Hunt. Will you give your full name?
TESTIMONY OF WILLIS M. KING, BALTIMORE, MD., ACCOMPANIED
BY WILLIAM GREENFELD, ATTORNEY, BALTIMORE, MD.
Mr. Kino. Willis M. King.
Senator Hint. May we have the name of counsel?
Mr. Greenfeld. William Greenfeld, GOO Court Square Building,
Bait imore.
Mi. Moser. Mr. King, would you state your name and address,
please?
Mr. King. Willis M. King, 1301 Lakeside Avenue, Baltimore, Md.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 103
Mr. Moser. Is that your residence address?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do .you conduct any business from that residence at all?
Mr. King. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. None at all.
You were served with a subpena, as I understand it, to produce
records ?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Have you got the records? Have you brought the
records?
Mr. Greenfeld. The subpena did not call for it.
Mr. Jackson. Typed in at the bottom, Mr. Greenfeld, isn't there the
requirements
Mr. Greenfeld. It just says :
The books and records provisions of tins subpena may be satisfied if desired by
delivery of the data to room 900, Federal Housing Loan Building, Washing-
ton, D. C.
That is all it says there.
Mr. Moser. Mr. King, -will you please produce for us your income-
tax returns for the years 1942 through 1950?
Mr. Greenfeld. This is something new, Mr. Moser, and
Mr. Moser. I understand.
Mr. Greenfeld. And I do not know a thing about that.
Mr. Moser. In view of the fact that it has been omitted from the
subpena. we are asking now that }-ou produce them.
Mr. Greenfeld. Which is that, income-tax returns for which
years ?
Mr. Moser. 1942 through 1950, inclusive.
Mr. Greenfeld. All right.
Mr. Moser. Including the worksheets that back them up.
Mr. Greenfeld. Now, that you have made a request for them.
Mr. Moser. Mr. King, we are, as you know, engaged in trying to
obtain information regarding criminal activities in interstate com-
merce
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser (continuing) . For the purpose of recommending legisla-
tion to Congress. We are not aiming at you ; we are trying to get
information. Would you tell us what your business is?
Mr. King. I can't answer it.
Mr. Moser. Can't answer it?
Mr. Greenfeld. Refuse.
Mr. Moser. You mean you do not know ?
Mr. King. I refuse.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. On what ground?
Air. King. It might incriminate myself.
Mr. Moser. Now, Mr. King, we have some information hero about
you that I would like to discuss with your counsel privatel}'. Would
you have, any objection to my doing that?
Mr. King. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. All right.
(Discussion off the record.)
104 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Moser. Mr. Kino;, do you engage in any business?
Mr. Kjng. I can't answer it.
Mr. Moser, You cannot answer it?
Mr. King. No, sir.
Mr. Mi >ser. You mean because you do not know ?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer it. in other words.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer it?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. On what ground?
Mr. King. It may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Moses. Mr. ( "Jreenfeld, we do not like to have counsel whisper
the answer every time to the witness. It becomes a little fictitious if the
witness is a mere conduit through whom the answer is given,
Mr. Greenfeld. Of course, Mr. Moser, you have to appreciate that
a witness may not be familiar with the exact wording that he ought
to use.
Mi-. Moser. I understand that, and we have no objection to your
advising him. However, we do object to your giving him every
answer which he will repeat for the record. That is not testimony.
Senator Hunt. I think, perhaps, counsel should indicate when
each question — whether counsel has answered the question indirectly
through the principal ; it should be noted in the record.
Mr. Moser. That is a good suggestion.
Mr. Greenfeld. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you know anything about business activities of
any kind that occur in Baltimore or in the State of Maryland?
Mr. King. What do you mean by business activities?
Mr. Moser. Any kind of business activities?
Mr. King. I don't know anything about Baltimore.
Mr. Moser. Don't you live in Baltimore?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. But you do not know anything about what goes on
there \
Mr. KinjG. I never get downtown; I don't hear any news.
Mr. Moser. Does anybody in your neighborhood conduct any busi-
ness \
Mr. King. What kind of business do you mean?
Mr. Moser. Legitimate business.
Mr. King. I live in a private neighborhood. There is no legitimate
business there with any
Mr. Mosi.r. There is no legitimate business?
Mi-. King. I would say within half a dozen blocks or a dozen blocks;
no. sir.
Mr. Moser. Where do you carry on your business activities?
Mr. Greenfeld. Tt is my understanding that if I do not want
him to answer a question that I should tell him, is that correct,
Senator \
Senator Hint. That is just a relationship between you as his
counsel and the principal. I just wanted it noted in the record who
Mas giving the answers, whether it was the witness or whether it was
counsel.
Mr. Greenfeld. T am not going to give the answer, but if it is a
question T do not think he ought to answer, I think it is my duty to
so advise him.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 105
Senator Tgbey. Wasn't the question where he carries on his busi-
ness ? Wasn't that the question I
Mr. Moser. Will you repeat the question ?
( The question was read by the reporter. )
Senator Tobey. And you do not think, Mr. Counsel, he ought to
answer that question?
Mr. Greenfeld. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Mr. King, you filed a Federal income-tax return for
the year 1944, did you not '.
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you recall what you reported as your income for
that year?
Mr. King. I can't recall.
Mr. Moser. Would it help you if I asked you if it was s-20,194.46?
Mr. King. I really don't know, but I can get all of that income-tux
return for you.
Mr. Moser. Do you plan to produce those returns \
Mr. King. What
Mr. Greenfeld. Wait a minute.
Mr. Moser. Do you plan to produce those returns?
Mr. Greenfeld. Wait a minute; we don't know. This is the first
I heard of it insofar as the production of any income-tax records or
any records, Mr. Moser.
Senator Hunt. Let us permit the witness to answer the question.
Ask the question again, if you will, Counsel.
Mr. Moser. Do you plan to produce your income-tax returns pur-
suant to our request ?
Mr. Greenfeld. Excuse me for just one moment, if you do not
mind.
Mr. Moser. Let me add to that, when I say income-tax returns, I
mean the taxpayer's copies of the tax returns.
Mr. Greenfeld. May I ask a question? I mean, I know if we
were in court I would object to the question, but I know the procedure
is not similar to that here. I mean there are certain questions, maybe
new questions like this production of certain records, that we knew
nothing about. I think he would have to consult with me first, and
he would have to go into it with me. I do not think he is in a position
to answer at the moment. I mean that is the story on it.
Mr. Moser. Can't you decide now \
Mr. Greenfeld. Not at the moment.
Mr. Moser. Mr. Greenfeld, can't you decide now as to whet lief or
not he can produce his copies of the tax returns '.
Mr. Greenfeld. I do not know. Your request was for the income-
tax returns, together with worksheets.
Mr. Moser. I have not asked him about that right now. I just
said the tax returns. I asked him whether he will produce the
copies of his tax returns.
Mr. Greenfield. Well I can't see any objection to that ; the income-
tax returns in themselves; yes.
Mr. Moser. The ones we requested?
Mr. King. Yes.
Mr. Moser. You will give us those?
Mr. King. I will get them for you ; I don't have them.
Mr. Moser. But you will get them for us?
106 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Air. King. Josh Miles lias them.
Mr. Greenfeld. Joshua Miles.
Senator Tome v. What is his business?
Mr. King. He is a lawyer, income-tax man.
Senator Torey. He makes out your returns?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. I see.
Mr. Moser. Does he make them out on the basis you furnish to him ?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Air. Moser. You just give him the data from which he prepares the
returns, is that correct?
Mr. King. That is right.
Mr. Moser. In connection with your income-tax returns for 1944,
I asked you whether $20,194.46 would be about correct. Did you fur-
nish the Government in connection with that return, a net worth
statement?
Mr. King. Yes. That is how I make it out, I don't know.
Mr. Greenfeld. I am going to
Senator Hunter. Just talk to your client, please.
Mr. Greenfeld. Excuse me. Will you repeat the question to him?
Mr. Moser. Your question has already been answered. What would
you say with regard to that?
Mr. Greenfeld. I do not know what the answer is.
Mr. Moser. Yes. Shall we go on to the next question?
Mr. Greenfeld. Yes.
Mr. Moser. Mr. King, is it true that in connection -with that net
worth statement vou listed vour assets and showed a net worth of
$105,167.56 as of January 1, 1944?
Mr. King, I couldn't answer that; I don't know.
Mr. Moser. You do not know?
Mr. King. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Is that approximately correct?
Mr. King. I couldn't answer that, either, for the reason I don't
know.
Mr. Moser. Is that somewhere near your net worth at the beginning
of 1944 \
Mr. King. I couldn't answer that, either.
Mr. Moser. Let me show you the statement.
Mr. King. If you show it to me, I can see all that. You can see all
that, too.
Mr. Moser. May I show you a statement which contains a list of
your assets as supplied to the Bureau of Internal Revenue, and ask
you whether or not it is correct?
Mr. Greenfeld. Was that attached to the income-tax return?
Mr. Moser. Supplied.
Mr. King. Is this a copy of the income tax?
Mr. Moser. That is a copy of the statement which you supplied to
the Bureau.
Mr. King. Of that year?
Mr. Moser. That you supplied to the Bureau of Internal Revenue
in connection with your l'.'tf income-tax return at their request.
Mr. < rREENFELD. This is what you returned in connection with your
1944 return.
Mr. King. I can't remember.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 710
Mr. Moser. Will you look at that statement and see if you recognize
any items on it?
Mr. King. It's going back a long way. It is correct so far as I
know, unless the lawyer made a mistake, and I am sure he didn't
make any.
Mr. Moser. As far as you know, that is correct?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you remember any of the items on it?
Mr. King. You see, I never keep them copies. The lawyer keeps
them copies.
Mr. Moser. I understand, but you must have some knowledge of
the material that is on it.
Mr. King. I guess that is about right.
Mr. Moser. All right.
Who is R. H. Amrein ? Do you know him ?
Mr. King. What?
Mr. Moser. Do you know R. H. Amrein?
Mr. King. Yes ; I know him.
Mr. Greenfield. Tell him.
Mr. Moser. You do know him?
Mr. King. Yes.
Mr. Moser. What is his first name, Ralph?
Mr. King. Ralph.
Mr. Moser. What is his business ?
Mr. King. I got to ask my lawyer. [Laughter.]
(Conference with counsel.)
Senator Tobey. Would you mind doing that again for the pho-
tographers?
Mr. Greenfeed. We do not have this on television, Senator.
Senator Tobey. That is one of the most touching scenes I have
observed in a long time. [Laughter.]
Mr. Moser. What is your answer, Mr. King?
Mr. King. Yes; I know him.
Mr. Moser. You said that, but what is his business?
Mr. King. He was a lieutenant of police.
Mr. Moser. Is he still?
Mr. King. He is still a lieutenant.
Mr. Moser. Did you lend him some money?
Mr. King. $5,000 on a note.
Mr. Moser. A promissory note ?
Mr. King. That is right,
Mr. Moser. Any interest?
Mr. King. Xo, sir.
Mr. Moser. Was it secured ?
Mr. King. What?
Mr. Moser. Was it secured ?
Mr. King. Well, I guess it must have been; him and his wife
signed it.
Mr. Moser. It was just on the signature of him and his wife?
Mr. King. That is right.
Mr. Moser. How did you happen to lend him S.">.<)()0 during 1944?
Mr. King. He wanted to buy something, and for $7,500, and then I
understand that he sold it back for a profit; how much, I don't know.
Mr. Moser. Did he pay you back?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
108 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
M r Mini:. When did he pay you back, do you remember?
Mr. King. He paid that to Mr. Miles. Mr. Miles loaned it to him.
1 was imt even there, and he paid that back to Mr. Miles.
Mi' Moser. How soon after the loan was made?
Mr. Kin... I guess it must have been a year, as far as I can recollect.
Senator Tobet. Was it real estate that he was buying?
Mr. King. What?
Mr. Moser. Was it real estate he was buying?
Senator Tobet. Was it real estate he was buying?
Mr. Kino. Yes, sir; Senator. That is what he told me. What he
bought, I don't know, but 1 know he told me that he bought it and made
a profit on it, whatever it was.
Mr. Moser. All right.
Was he the head of the vice squad?
Mr. King. What? . . .
Mr Moser. Was he the head of the vice squad in Baltimore i
Mr. King. I don't think then. I think he was in the eastern district.
Mr. Moser. He was the former head of the vice squad?
Mr. King. He was at one time.
Mr. Moser. Before this loan was made?
Mr. King. Well, I think he wasn't on the vice squad when I loaned
Mr. Moser. Do you own the property at 2806 Manhattan Avenue?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. You do? Do you use that property yourself*
Mr. King. Once in a while.
Mr. Moser. What do you use it for?
Mr. Kino. JusI to go out there and sleep when it gets hot.
Mr. Moser. Where is it ?
Mr. King. Eight in back of Pimlico.
Mr. Moserj A summer place ?
Mr. Kino. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. A summer place?
Mr. King. No summer place; regular home.
Mr. Moser. How long have you owned it?
Mr. King. Thirty year-;.
Mr. Moser. And you still own it?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. And it was worth what, about $8,000?
Mr. Kino. 1 suppose so. Of course, 1 think it has depreciated a
little there— depreciated a little out there, I don't know.
Mr. MOSER. Has it ever been raided?
Mr. King. What \
Mr. Moser. Has it ever been raided by the police?
Mr. King. Twice.
Mr. Moser. Twice raided by the police?
Mr. Kino. Yes.
Mr. Moser. Do you want to tell us when?
Mr. Kino. You ought to have the date there: 1 eould not tell you
the date and day.
Mr. Moser. Would it help any if 1 told you the first tune was
November L6, 1945? T . .
Mr. King. I know it was November, because I was just coming in
from gunning.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 109
Mr. Moser. Who was there at the time?
Mr. King. I can't answer that.
Mr. Moser. You mean you don't remember?
Mr. King. I do remember, but I just refuse to answer it.
Mr. Moser. And you had been gunning?
Mr. King. What?
Mr. Moser. You had just been gunning?
Mr. King. I just come out of the fields, yes.
Mr. Moser. And were the other people there gunning, too?
Mr. King. I don't know what they were doing,
Mr. Moser. You do not know what they were doing there ?
Mr. King. No.
Mr. Moser. How many were there?
Mr. King. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Moser. You mean because you do not know ?
Mr. King. I don't know is right.
Mr. Moser. Can you tell us roughly whether there were 2 or 50 «
Mr. King. I just refuse to answer that.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer that?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Was Orkey Davidson there?
Mr. King. I just refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. Is his name Harry O. Davidson ?
Mr. King. I just refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. Do you know Harry O. Davidson ?
Mr. King. Only when I see him ; yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. You do ?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. M<>ser. Do you know him well?
Mr. King. Well, just know him. that is all, just like anybody else.
Mr. Moser. Well, some people know him better than others. How
well do you know him '.
Mr. King. I know him from being around a long time.
Mr. Moser. You're good friends ?
Mr. King. I would not say that either.
Mr. Moser. Is he a business associate of yours ?
Mr. King. No, sir.
Mr, Moser. Do you have any business dealings with him i
Mr. King. None whatever.
Mr. Moser. Did you have any back in 1945 ?
Mr. King. What? , . , ..
Mr. Moser. Did you have any back in 1945, any business dealings
with him ?
Mr. King. Who, what ? I didn't get you.
Mr. Moser. The question is whether back in 1945 you had any busi-
ness dealings with Orkey Davidson.
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Moser. Have you ever had any business dealings with him i
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Moser. Do you know Thomas J. Quinn ?
Mr. King. Yes, I know him.
Mr. Moser. How well do you know him?
Mr. King. Well, I know him, that is all.
85277 — 51— pt. 17 8
110 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Moser. Was he gunning with you on November 16, 1915?
Mr. King. He don't gun.
Mr. Moser. He does not gun?
Mr. King. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. How about Harry O. Davidson, does he gun?
Mr. King. Once in a while, yes.
Mr. Moser. Was he gunning with you on November 16, 1945?
Mr. Kino. I don't think there was anybody but me.
Mr. Moser. You were the only one gunning ?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Was Thomas J. Quinn at your house at 2806 Manhattan
Avenue on November 16, 1945?
Mr. King. To tell you the truth, I can't remember.
Mr. Moser. You do not remember ?
Mr. King. No.
Mr. Moser. You remember the raid, though, do you not?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. What happened at the raid?
Mr. King. What? I just refuse to answer that, too.
Mr. Moser. You remember who was there at the time of the raid?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Moser. Do you remember?
Mr. King. I just refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer whether you remember? Do you
remember who was there ?
Mr. King. Truthfully, no.
Mr. Moser. Has Orkey Davidson ever been a business associate of
yours?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that, too.
Mr. Moser. You do say he is not a business associate of yours now.
When did he stop being a business associate of yours?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Moser. Do you remember a raid at 2806 Manhattan Avenue,
Baltimore, in April of 1949 ?
Mr. King. Yes.
Mr. Moser. You do remember a raid?
Mr. King. Yes.
Mr. Moser. What happened at that raid?
Mr. King. I just refuse to answer that.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to tell us anything about that raid?
Mr. King. Yes.
Mr. Moser. Was Andrew Kotschenweuther there ?
Mr. King. Who?
Mi. Moser. He knows, Kotschenweuther.
Mr. King. Kotschenweuther? He was there.
Mr. Moser. lie was there?
Mr. Kino. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Was Archibald Sowers there?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. And you were there?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Were yon (lie only three there?
Mr. King. Thai is all.
Mr. Moser. .Inst yon three?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 111
Mr. Moser. What were you doing?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. Was anybody arrested in connection with that raid?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Who was arrested?
Mr. King. Kotschenweuther, Sowers, and I.
Mr. Moser. You were arrested?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Was anybody convicted?
Mr. King. Mr. Kotschenweuther.
Mr. Moser. Kotschenweuther was convicted ?
Mr. King. Right.
Mr. Moser. Of what?
Mr. King. Bookmaking, they say.
Mr. Moser. Bookmaking?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Was there any bookmaking going on there?
Mr. King. They found nothing.
Mr. Moser. They found nothing?
Mr. King. No.
Mr. Moser. How many telephones do you have there ?
Mr. King. Excuse me for just a minute.
(Conference with counsel.)
Mr. King. So far as I was concerned there was no bookmaking
at
Mr. Moser. There was no bookmaking?
Mr. King. That is right.
Mr. Moser. You say as far as you were concerned.
Mr. King. That is right.
Mr. Moser. As far as you know were there any bookmaking activi-
ties, as far as you know ?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that, too.
Mr. Moser. In other words, you were not involved in bookmaking,
but you knew
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Moser. How many telephones did you have in that place on
April 4, 1949 ?
Mr. King. Two.
Mr. Moser. You had two telephones?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Did you know that the police seized four telephones?
Mr. King. No such a thing.
Mr. Moser. No such thing?
Mr. King. No such a thing.
Mr. Moser. It is not true?
Mr. King. That is not so.
Mr. Moser. Did they find any payoff slips ?
Mr. King. Not that I recollect.
Mr. Moser. You do not remember any payoff slips?
Mr. King. In fact, there was no payoff slips.
Mr. Moser. I see. Do you know that the police seized $1G,000 face
amount of pavofF slips?
Mr. King. What?
112 ORGANIZED CRIME 1\ IVI KRSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Moser. Do you know that the police seized $16,000 worth of
face amount payoff slips?
Mr. King. I don't know nothing aboul that.
Mr. Moser. You do not know that I
Mr. King. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. You do not know that they didn't, though, do you?
Mr. King. What '.
Mr. Moser. You do not know that they didn't \
Mr. King. 1 don't know— I know that they couldn't if there was
none there.
Mr. Moser. You arc sure there were none there?
Mr. King. Sure I'm sure there were none there.
Mr. Moser. The police report reveals they were seized.
Mr. Kino. What?
Mr. Moser. The police report reveals they were seized.
Mr. Gki.k.m i.i.n. He is a little hard of hearing.
Mi. Moser. The police report reveals that those reports were
seized. Do you claim that is wrong?
Mr. King. Yes, sir; that is wrong.
Mr. Moser. Did the police also seize a high-card gambling board?
Mr. King. Yes. old Fairbanks table layout, that was moth-eaten,
and must be 60 years old.
Mr. Moser. Was it yours?
Mr. Kino. I can't answer that.
Mr. Moser. You mean you do not remember?
Mr. King. Sure I remember; I just refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. Did they find six crap cloths?
Mr. King. Six?
Mr. Moser. Yes.
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that,
Mr. Moser. Did they seize any crap cloths?
Mr. King. What?
Mr. Moser. Did they seize any crap cloths?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. I >id you have any era]) cloths there?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that, too.
Senator Tobey. What are crap cloths ?
Mr. Kim.. Senator, that is with a layout painted on it.
Mr. Moser. Did they find two boxes containing 2,475 pairs of dice?
Mr. King. No, they found about 30 boxes, a hundred in each box,
that was a collection of over 30 years.
Senator Tom. v. What you were running was a museum there?
Mr. King. What \ We tried to collect them as a hobby, that is all,.
Senator. | Laughter.]
Mr. Moser. Did they find any anus, guns?
Mr. Kino. Right ; they found plenty of them, shotguns
Mr. Moser. Tell us about the guns.
Mr. King. What I
Mr. Moser. Tell us about the guns.
Mr. King. Just shotguns that you shot birds, rabbits, or ducks.
Mr. Moser. What gage?
Mr. King. Twelve.
Mr. Moser. Twelve-gage shotgun?
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 113
Mr. King. Yes; and they found an old A~> pistol there that was
left to me by an uncle, and it is still out there.
Mr. Moser. Yes. You mean they returned it after the seizure?
Mr. King. Oh, yes.
Mr. Moser. Did they find any other guns?
Mr. King. Yes. they found a few other guns.
Mr. Moser. What did they find?
Mr. King. They found two or three automatics, and that old .45,
as I told you. I mean that old frontier thing, whatever it is.
Mr. Moser. Two or three automatics?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. What kind of automatics?
Mr. King. Colt automatics.
Mr. Moser. Forty-fives?
Mr. King. Yes ; target-practice Colts.
Mr. Moser. Two or three .45-caliber Colts?
Mr. King. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. Moser. Did they find any .38-caliber pistols?
Mr. King. Yes, sir ; they might have found one of them, too.
Mr. Moser. More than one ?
Mr. King. One is all I know.
Mr. Moser. But they might have found more?
Mr. King. I don't think so. I don't see how they could, Mr. Moser,
if it wasn't there, if there was only one. They are still out there out
in the old house.
Mr. Moser. You mean they returned them to you?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Did you have a sa wed-off shotgun there ?
Mr. King. Yes; and that was registered with the Government.
Mr. Moser. What gage was that ?
Mr. King. I think that was 20.
Mr. Moser. Twenty gage? Why do you have sa wed-off shotguns
there?
Mr. King. I don't know. I used to have it laying around the house;
I don't know.
Mr. Moser. Just in case of trouble, I suppose ?
Mr. King. I never had no trouble, never in my life; never had one
argument or never was arrested for no arguments.
Mr. Moser. Never arrested?
Mr. King. Not for no arguments.
Mr. Moser. For arguments?
Mr. King. Yes.
Mr. Moser. What is a dice loading machine? Would you explain
thai I
Mr. King. That isn't so.
Mr. Greenfeld. I don't know whether he knows what a dice loading
machine is.
Mr. King. I don't know nothing about that.
Mr. Moser. You have never heard of it?
Mr. King. I heard of it. but never had no use for one.
Mr. Moser. You never have seen a dice-loading machine I
Mr. King. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. Moser. You have never seen one ?
Mr. King. I don't think so ; no, sir.
114 ORGANIZED CRIME EN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Moser. There was not any in your house that night of the raid?
Mr. King. There was none in my house.
Mr. Moser. Do you deny thai the police found three dice loading
machines in your house?
Mr. King. Certainly I deny it.
Mr. Moser. You deny it?
Mr. King. Yes sir; 1 deny it emphatically, emphatically deny it.
Mr. Moser. How do you account for the fact that the police reports
indicate that three of them were found there?
Mr. GreenfeU). I don't know whether lie knows what a dice loading
machine is or not, Mr. Moser.
Mr. Moser. What is a dice loading machine?
Mr. King. I don't know; I never had any.
Mr. Moser. You never heard of a dice loading machine?
Mr. King. I have heard of them, sure.
Mr. Moser. How do they work?
Mr. King. I couldn't tell you; I don't know.
Mr. Moser. What were these machines that the police thought were
dice loading machines?
Mr. Kino. What?
Mr. Moser. What were these machines that the police thought
were dice loading machines?
Mr. King. I don't have the slightest idea.
Mr. Moser. You do not have any idea?
Mr. King. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. You claim the police report is wrong?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. How do you account for its being wrong?
Mr. Kino. What ?
Mr. Moser. How do you account for their making that report
when you claim it is wrong?
Mr. King. Maybe he made a. mistake.
Mr. Moser. And maybe he did not, too.
Mr. King. Maybe he didn't, is right, but I know that he did.
Mr. Moser. That is right.
Mr. King. I know he did.
Mr. Moser. Have you ever been convicted of a crime?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. What was that?
Mr. King. Gambling.
Mr. Moser. What kind of gambling?
Mr. King. Manager of a crap game in St. Marys County. I was
there four times, once every 2 weeks.
Mr. Moser. Once w^rx 2 weeks?
Mr. King. Once every 2 weeks, and I paid the cut — it was just a
head and head crap game like everybody else played.
Mr. Moser. Did you use any of these 30,000 pairs of dice?
Mr. King. I never used — they had their own dice there.
Mr. Moser. They had their own dice?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. And you did that for a period of 2 months?
Mr. Kino. Four times, 2 months, T would say.
Mr. Moser. That was 2. months?
Mr. King. Twice a month.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 115
Mr. Moser. And none of the dice loading machines were used in
connection with that?
Mr. King. No, sir. I didn't have nothing to do with the dice. He
had the dice.
Mr. Moser. Where was this craps game conducted?
Mr. Kino. At the St. Marys Inn in St. Marys County.
Mr. Moser. "Was that arrest in October 1950 ?
Mr. King. I don't know. I left there in the spring and came back
after 3 or 4 months, and a State policeman served me with a war-
rant, so I said, "What's this for?" And he says, "Down at St. Marys
County." I said, "Why? I was only there four times."
Mr. Moser. Four times?
Mr. King. Yes, sir. And on the advice of my lawyer, the lawyer
says, "You can take it to court, and we are a sure thing to beat it,"
so I said, "I don't know nothing about beating it." So he says to me,
he says, "You will have to run down there four or five times," he
said, "and you will go over and pay $125 fine, and have it over with,"
so T said if that is what he thinks, that we wTill do it.
Mr. Moser. So you were convicted and fined $125 ?
Mr. King. It amounted to $130, Mr. Moser.
Mr. Moser. Where you ever arrested for anything else?
Mr. King. What?
Mr. Moser. Were you ever arrested for anything else ?
Mr. King. I don't know — what do you mean by anything else?
Mr. Moser. Any other crime?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer whether you were arrested for
a crime ?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
• Mr. Moser. You understand that an arrest is a matter of record,
do you not ?
Mr. King. Well, that is all right.
Mr. Moser. It is a public document.
Mr. King. I just refuse to answer.
Mr. Greenfeld. Don't you think, Mr. Moser, the question ought
to be arrested and convicted ?
Mr. Moser. I have asked the question of whether he was arrested,
and I think that is the correct question.
Do you refuse to answer ?
Mr. King. What (
Mr. Moser. Do you refuse to answer whether you were arrested?
(There was a conference between the witness and his counsel.)
Mr. King. Yes. I was convicted down to a place called Indian
Head.
Mr. Moser. Indian Head?
Mr. King. Yes.
Mr. Moser. When was that, approximately?
Mr. King. Oh, that has been 12, 14 years ago, I guess.
Mr. Moser. Twelve or 14 years ago ?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. 1938, approximately?
Mr. King. Well, it might have been, I am not sure.
Mr. Moser. What were you arrested and convicted for?
Mr. King. Maintaining and setting up a gambling table.
116 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Moser. Maintaining and setting up a gambling table 3
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Where did you do that \
Mr. King. What?
Mr. Moser. Where was that, whore was the maintaining and setting
up, do you know \
Mr. King. That was down to Indian Head.
Mr. Moser. Indian Head? Is that in Maryland, too?
Mi. King. That is in southern Maryland.
Mr. Moser. And at whose establishmenl \
Mr. King. Mr. Moser, I really don't know.
Mr. Moser. In Anne Arundel County ?
Mr. King. No.
Mr. Moser. In Charles County?
Mr. King. Charles County is right.
Mr. Moser. That was in 1938?
Mr. King. Something like that.
Mr. Moser. Have you ever been arrested for anything else, any
other crime?
Mi. King. Not as I know of.
Mr. Moser. Were you arrested on November 1G, 1915, on a
•charge ■
Mr. King. I answered that one.
Mr. Moser. That was on the charge of bookmaking?
Mr. King. I answered that.
Mr. Moser. You were arrested and dismissed?
Mr. King. Yes, sir ; I answered that.
Mr. Moser. What is Rick's Raft ?
Mr. King. That is a cabaret in Ocean City.
Mr. Moser. Cabaret in Ocean City ?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you have any interest in that ?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. What is the business of that cabaret ?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that ; I can't answer it.
Mr. Moser. It is a cabaret, is it not? You said it is a cabaret?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do they serve meals there?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do they have dancing there?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
M r. Moser. Do they serve drinks there?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do they have a license?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do they do anything else there?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that.
Senator Tobey. What do you mean by anything else? [Laughter.]
Mr. Moser. Do they have a news ticker of any kind installed?
Mr. King. What?
Mr. Moser. Do they have a news ticker of any kind installed there i
Mr. King. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer ?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 117
Mr. Moser. Do they have a bookmaking establishment there?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that, too.
Mr. Moser. Do they have a ticker there today ?
Mr. King. What?
Mr. Moser. Do they have a ticker there today ?
Mr. King. I still refuse to answer; I don't know. I think it is
closed.
Mr. Moser. You think it is closed?
Mr. King. Yes, sir ; it will open on the 12th,
Mr. Moser. Will open on the 12th of July ?
Mr. King. That is right ; yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. And will they have a ticker there then?
Mr. King. Well — I just refuse to answer ; I don't know what they
are going to have, because I don't know nothing — I have nothing to
do with it.
Mr. Moser. You own an interest in it, do you ?
Mr. King. I got a mortgage on it.
Mr. Moser. You have got a mortgage on it ?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. How much of a mortgage ?
Mr. King. $26,000.
Mr. Moser. $26,000.
Mr. King. That is right.
Mr. Moser. When did you lend that money that was back of that
mortgage ?
Mr. King. When they built it, about 4 years back, or close to five,
I guess.
Mr. Moser. 1945, approximately ?
Mr. King. What is that?
Mr. Moser. I said 1945, approximately ?
Mr. King. I said 4 or 5 years back ; I don't know.
Mr. Moser. What is Pen Mar?
Mr. King. What?
Mr. Moser. What is Pen Mar?
Mr. King. Pen Mar ?
Mr. Greenfeld. That is a city.
Mr. Moser. Pen Mar, Md., that is a city. Do you own any estab-
lishment there?
Mr. King. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you have any interest in any place there ?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that, too.
Mr. Moser. Well, you have not refused to answer with respect to-
your interest in Rick's Raft.
Mr. King. I can refuse this.
Mr. Moser. I see. So you. refuse to answer whether you own an
interest in an establishment at Pen Mar; is that correct?
Mr. King. I decline to answer it, or refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. Is there any establishment at Pen Mar that has a ticker
in it in which you have an interest?
Mr. King. Not me.
Mr. Moser. Not you ?
Mr. King. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Is there any ticker there ?
Mr. King. I can't answer that.
118 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Air. Moser. Is there any ticker — Why can't you answer?
Mr. King. Because I just don't feel like answering it.
Mr. Moser. You just do not feel like answering it?
Mr. King. That is right; I refuse to answer it, in other words.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer it?
Mr. Kino. That is right.
Mr. Moser. Now, a while ago I was asking you about Rick's
Raft
Mr. King. Rick'sRaft.
Mr. Moser (continuing). And you said that you have an interest
in that place, and you refused to answer whether or not it had a
ticker in it ; is that correct ?
Mr. King. That is right.
Mr. Moser. And you refused to answer whether or not it had a
bookmaking establishment; is that correct?
Mr. King. Right.
Mr. Moser. Have you reported all of your income from that source
to the Federal Government?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. You have?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Reported all of it?
Mr. King. Absolutely.
Mr. Moser. You say you refuse to answer because you are afraid
you will incriminate yourself. Is it because you are afraid of incrim-
inating yourself with respect to a State crime?
Mr. King. Yes; it may be both ; I just refuse.
Mr. Moser. Wait a minute; you said it may be both Federal and
State?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer whether the crime you have in
mind is Federal or State?
Mr. King. I don't know. I just refuse to answer the question. I
don't know whether it is Federal or State or what it is.
Mr. Moser. You said that you had paid all your income taxes, so
obviously you have no fear of Federal incrimination ; isn't that correct?
Mr. Greenfeld. That is not exactly so, Mr. Moser.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. King. I just refuse to answer, Mr. Moser.
Mr. Mqser. You refuse to answer as to whether the crime you have
iu mind is Federal or State?
Mr. King. It may incriminate me in some way, that is what you
wanted me to say ; I don't know.
Mr. Moser. I want to show the nature of what the crime is, not
exactly- — is it a Federal or a State crime? It is important to know.
Will you tell me whether the crime you have in mind is a Federal
crime.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. King. It may be; I just refuse; I just answer that.
M r. M< ►see. You say you do not know ?
Mr. King. I don't say I don't know. I just say I refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to tell us what kind of a crime it is, Federal
or State?
Mr. King. That is right.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 119
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer that question?
Mr. Greenfeld. That is what he said.
Mr. Moser. All right.
You said you had loaned some money to R. H. Amrein?
Mr. King. That is right.
Mr. Moser. Did you loan any money to any other members of any
police force [
Mr. Kino. Never a quarter.
Mr. Moser. Did you ever give them airy money?
Mr. King. Never a dime.
Mr. Moser. Did you ever pay them any money \
Mr. King. Never paid them any money.
Mr. Moser. How does it happen that in this raid in 1049, that
Kotschenweuther was the only one convicted ?
Mr. King. Because there was no evidence. The only reason I got
Kotschenweuther to plead guilty to that mess, I don't know, they
wanted a conviction, and they wanted this and they wanted that.
They had nothing to go on, so I thought the easiest way out would
be that way to plead guilty.
Mr. Moser. The easiest way out was to take a rap ?
Mr. King. That is right. He didn't take a rap. There was noth-
ing to take a rap for.
Mr. Moser. He was convicted, was he not ?
Mr. King. Because he pleaded guilty. I was convicted, too, in St.
Marys County, and the only reason I pleaded guilty was because they
said it was the easiest way out.
Mr. Moser. How much was Kotschenweuther fined?
Mr. King. $100.
Mr. Moser. How much ? $100?
Mr. King. $100.
Mr. Moser. Who paid the $100?
Mr. King. I don't know.
Mr. Moser. You did not ?
Mr. King. I should say I didn't.
Mr. Moser. Did your lawyer?
Mr. King. Xot as I know of.
Mr. Moser. Who is J. J. Maddock?
Mr. King. Well, I know him from around the race track.
Mr. Moser. From around the race track ?
.Mr. King. Yes.
Mr. Moser. You have known him there?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Have you ever had any business dealings with him?
Mr. King. Well, I refuse to answer that, too.
Mr. Moser. Have you ever had any dealings with him ?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that, too.
Mr. Moser. Have you ever had any dealings of a nature which
would not incriminate you, dealings with him?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer whether you had any dealings
with him of a nature that would not incriminate you?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. Have you any business activities, the revealing of which
would not incriminate you?
120 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that, too. _ .
Mr. Moser. You understand thai I am talking about business activi-
ties which would not incriminate you?
Mr. King. I know what you are talking about.
.Mr. Moser. And you refuse to answer?
Mr. Kino. Yes, sir. .
Mr. Moser. Do you have any business dealings with J. J. Maddock
at the present time?
Mr. Kino. 1 re fuse to answer that, too.
Mr. Moser. AY hat is his business?
M r. Kino. Construct ion man, from what I hear. I don't know.
Mr. Moser. A construction man?
Mr. King. Yes.
Mr. Moser. Yes?
Mr. King. A builder or something.
Mr. Moser. But you do not know what his business is?
Mr. King. No.
Mr. Moser. You do not know what his business is?
Mr. Kino. They say he is a builder; I couldn't swear he was a
builder. .
Mr. Moser. You have never had any dealings with him?
Mr. King. Not in the building business. I have had no dealings
in no way with him.
Mr. Moser. But you do know him?
Mr. King. Yes ; I told you I know him.
Mr. Moser. Do you know him quite well ?
Mr. King. I wouldn't say quite well either.
Mr. Moser. How long have you known him?
Mr. King. Oh, 4 or 5 years.
Mr. Moser. Only 4 or 5 years ?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. And you do not know what his business is?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Moser. Do you know who Dude Horn is?
Mr. King. What?
Mr. Moser. Do you know who Dude Horn is?
Mr. Kino. 1 refuse to answer that.
Mr. Moser. Do you know him?
Mr. King. I refuse — Yes; I know him.
Mr. Moser. You know him?
Mr. King. Yes; I know him.
Mi-. Moser. How well do you know him?
M r. King. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Moser. Have you known him long?
Mr. Kino. What?
Mr. Moser. Have you known him long?
Mr. Kino. Well. I guess 6, 7 years, maybe.
Mr. Moser. Six or seven years?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. What is his business ?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. Do you know what his business is?
Mr. Kino. I refuse to answer.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 121
Mr. Moser. Senator Tobey, would you mind ins! rucl ing this witness
to answer all of the questions that we have asked him which he has
refused to answer? .
Senator Tobey. You have heard all of the questions and answers
which have been asked you, all these questions; do you recall that?
You heard all these questions?
M r. King. Yes, sir ; I heard them.
Senator Tobey. And to sum up, your answer is that you refuse
to answer on the ground it might tend to incriminate you with respect
to all these questions you refuse to answer?
Mr. King. That is 'right, Senator.
Senator Tobey. We now order vou to answer them.
Mr. King. What?
Senator Tobey. We now order you to answer the questions.
Mr. King. I still refuse.
Senator Tobey. All right ; thank you.
Mr. Moser. You have understood all the questions, have you?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. And you understand that you can be held guilty of
contempt if they are beyond your privilege, do you?
Mr. King. Well, that is all right.
Mr. Moser. You do not mind being held in contempt ?
Mr. King. Sure I mind being held in contempt.
Mr. Moser. Do you know Sam Morgan?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that, too. Yes; I know him when I
see him.
Mr. Moser. Have you known him long ?
Mr. King. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you know Howard Ortel ?
Mr. King. Know him, too.
Mr. Moser. What is his business?
Mr. King. I don't know. He has got a farm, I hear.
Mr. Moser. Has he got any other business?
Mr. King. I couldn't tell you ; I don't know.
Mr. Moser. You do not know?
Mr. King. No. I just refuse to answer that.
Mr. Moser. Wait a minute; which is it ?
Mr. King. What?
Mr. Moser. Is your answer that you don't know W'hether he has
got any other business or that you refuse to answer ?
Mr. King. I just refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. Patrick J. Clarke ; do you know him ?
Mr. King. Yes ; I know him, too.
Mr. Moser. How well do you know him ?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer that, too. I know him about 2 years.
Mr. Moser. About 2 years?
Mr. King. Yes.
Mr. Moser. What is his business?
Mr. King. I don't know. I just refuse to answer that, too.
Mr. Moser. Which is it?
Mr. King. Just refuse to answer, Mr. Moser.
Mr. Moser. Well, can't you say whether you know or not? Do you
know what his business is?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer.
122 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Moser. A minute ago you said you do not know. Do you
know or don't you know?
Mr. King. I just refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. Senator Tobey, would you instruct him to answer
those questions ?
Senator Tobey. The same order applies as before. You are in-
structed to answer these questions. You are ordered by the acting
chairman to answer these questions.
Mr. Kino. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. What is your reply?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. 1 think that is all on that.
Our next witness is Mr. Sapperstein.
Mr. Sapterstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Will you sit at that chair at the end of the table?
Senator Hunt. Would you stand, please. Do you solemnly swear
the testimony you will give this committee will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Safterstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Mr. Sapperstein, what is your full name?
TESTIMONY OF IKE SAPPERSTEIN, BALTIMORE, MD.
Mr. Sapperstein. Ike Sapperstein.
Mr. Moser. Ike Sapperstein?
Mr. Sapperstein. S-a-p-p-e-r-s-t-e-i-n.
Mr. Moser. What is your address?
Mi-. Sapperstein. 4119 Boarman Avenue.
Mr. Moser. Is that your residence address?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you have a business address ?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. No business address?
Mr. Sapperstein. Not right now ; not at the present time.
Mr. Moser. When did you last have a business address?
Mr. Sapperstein. It's been about a year or so ago. maybe a little
over.
Mr. Moser. A little over a year?
Mi-. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. You mean it was about June 1950?
Mr. Sapperstein. I would judge around that time.
Mr. Moser. And you gave up your business address at that time?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Where was that ?
Mr. Sappi.ks ri.i v. Int lie 1200 block of Charles Street.
Mr. Moser. Baltimore?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes. sir.
Mr. Moser. What was the nature of that business?
Mr. Sapperstein. Dress shop.
Mr. MoSER. Dress shop?
Mr. Sapperstei \. Yes, sir.
.Mr. Moser. How long had you been in the dress-shop business?
Mr. Sapperstein. I had been off and on for the past maybe 7 or 8?
years.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 123
Mr. Moser. What did you give the business up for '.
Mr. Sapperstein. Could not make a go out of it.
Mr. Moser. No profit?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. What business did you return to then?
Mr. Sapperstein. 1 have not done nothing since then.
Mr. Moser. No business at all?
Mr. Sapperstein. No. sir.
Mr. Moser What is your source of income?
Mr. Sapperstein. My source of income?
Mr. Moser. Yes.
Mr. Sapperstein. Now?
Mr. Moser. Yes.
• Mr. Sapperstein. I bet on horses.
Mr. Moser. You bet on horses?
Mr. Sappeksteix. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. You bet on horses by yourself ?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Where do you do the betting?
Mr. Sapperstein. Race tracks.
Mr. Moser. Do you always win ?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. How often do you bet on horses?
Mr. Sapperstein. I would say almost every day.
Mr. Moser. Every day? How much do you make a year betting on
horses ?
Mr. Sapperstein. I couldn't answer that, sir.
Mr. M oser. Just roughly ?
Mr. Sapperstein. I couldn't answer that, sir.
Mr. Moser. Did you bet on horses when atou were running a dress
shop?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. How long have vou been betting on the horses regu-
larly?
Mr. Sapperstein. About 20 years, I guess.
Mr. Moser. Over the 20-year period has it always been profitable
in the long run?
Mr. Sapperstein. It has been with me, sir.
Mr. Moser. It has ?
Mr. Sapperstein. It has been with me.
Mr. Moser. How much have you made a year, approximately, bet-
ting on horses?
Mr. Sapperstein. I couldn't tell you, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you get any information before you bet on horses?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. What kind of information?
Mr. Sapperstein. I think it is good. I mean, it is sure of a profit,
Mr. Moser. What kind of information?
Mr. Sapperstein. Well, I get tips. I got a pretty good opinion, I
think, of my own about it, and I get some pretty good advice.
Mr. Moser. You get good advice ?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Where do you get the advice, from what kind of people ?
Mr. Sapperstein. Different sources.
124 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEU^E
Mr. Moser. Do you get it by telephone?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you get it on a ticker service?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. How do you pet it ?
Mr. Sapperstein. At the race track.
Mr. Moser. At the race track?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Just talking to people there?
Mr. Sapperstein. People that I know.
M r. Moser. Do you know Nig Rosen^
Mr. Sapperstein. I know of him ; yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you know him well ?
Mr. Sapperstein. Not too well. I know him.
Mr. Moser. Where does he live?
Mr. Sapperstein. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Moser. How do you know him?
Mr. Sapperstein. What?
-Mr. Moser. How do you know him?
Mr. Sapperstein. I have met him.
Mr. Moser. Where?
Mr. Sapperstein. All around. I met him in New York. I met him
in Florida.
Mr. Moser. In New York and Florida?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. In what connection did you meet him?
Mr. Sapperstein. None at all. Just I used to see him at a race
track.
Mr. Moser. Did you ever get any information from him on horses?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Did you ever get any bets on any dogs?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Except the horses that were dogs.
Who is Willie Weisberg?
Mr. Sapperstein. I think that is a friend of Nig Rosen.
Mr. Moser. Nig Rosen?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes.
Mr. Moser. What is his real name? That is an alias, is it not?
Mr. Sapperstein. I don't know, sir; I couldn't answer that, sir.
Mr. Moser. Is his name Harry Stromberg?
Mr. Sapperstein. I couldn't tell you, sir. All I know it as Rosen.
Mr. Moser. You just never knew his real name.
Where does Rosen live; Philadelphia?
Mr. Sapperstein. I couldn't tell you, sir.
Mr. Moser. You do not know?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. What is his business, do you know?
Mr. Sapperstein. 1 couldn't tell you that, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you know Hymie Frankel?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Never heard of him?
Mr. Sapperstein. Never heard the name, sir.
Mr. Moser. What is the Blue Mirror?
Mr. Sapperstein. Blue Mirror?
Mr. Moser. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 125
Mr. Sapperstein. On Charles Street, Charles and
Mr. Moser. What is it (
Mr. Sapperstein. II is a cocktail lounge.
Mr. Moser. Cocktail lounge?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. What other business do they carry on there?
Mr. Sapperstein. Nothing.
Mr. Moser. No book operation there?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do they have any t icker in there?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. No news ticker of any kind ?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. How often have you been there?
Mr. Sapperstein. Very often.
Mr. Moser. What do you go there for?
Mr. Sapperstein. The fellow that owns the place is a friend of mine.
Mr. Moser. What is his name?
Mr. Sapperstein. Aaronson.
Mr. Moser. Spell it.
Mr. Sapperstein. A-a-r-o-n-s-o-n.
Mr. Moser. Aaronson?
Mr. Sappersteix. That is right.
Mr. M< isr.K. How long lias he owned the Blue Mirror?
Mr. Sapperstein. I think it is close to 2 years.
Mr. Moser. Have you been going there regularly for 2 years?
Mr. Sapperstein. No ; I would not say regularly.
Mr. Moser. How often ?
Mr. Sapperstein. When I am in town.
Mr. Moser. What do you go there for ?
Mr. Sapperstein. Nothing. It is only a case of friendship there.
Mr. Moser. It is a cocktail lounge. You go there for a drink?
Mr. Sapperstein. Once in a while.
Mr. Moser. Have you been all through the place ?
Mr. Sappersteix. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you know it from one end to the other ?
Mr. Sappersteix. Top to bottom.
Mr. Moser. And if there was bookmaking
Mr. Sapperstein. I would not, sir
Mr. Moser. Let me finish the sentence — If there were a book parlor
there you would know it?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. And if there was a ticker there, you would know it; is
that correct?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. A subpena was served on you. Did it make any refer-
ence to books and records to be furnished to the committee?
Mr. Sapperstein. Books and records ; yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. It did ?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Did you bring any?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Why not ?
85277- -51— pt. 17-^9
126 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Sapperstein'. Because I don't understand what you people will
want from me, and I tried to get the advice of some attorneys, and I
can't think straight, sir; I don't know.
I have my income-tax returns, I have my home. Outside of that
there, I don't have anything outside of some war bonds that I have,
and I don't know — anything else in regard to property or anything
like that.
Mr. Moser. Do you own your own home?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. You do own your home?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Is there a mortgage on it?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
M r. Moser. Is it free and clear ?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Howr much is it worth?
Mr. Sapperstein. I think it is worth a lot of money now. When I
bought it I paid $8,200 for it.
Mr. Moser. How many rooms, six?
Mr. Sapperstein. Six.
Mr. Moser. Do you own any other property besides that?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Have you ever been convicted of a crime?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Mr. Sapperstein, you sa}^ that you were in the dress
business and betting on horses?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
M r. Moser. Have you ever been in the numbers game?
Mr. Sapperstein. I can't answer that, sir.
Mr. Moser. You cannot answer it?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
\1 r. Moser. You mean you do not want to answer it?
Mr. Sai'perstein. That is right.
Mr. Moser. Well, you have been very frank with us so far.
Mr. Sapperstein. And I want to be, but I just don't want to in-
criminate myself in any question that is liable to incriminate me here
or at home. The only thing that I can tell you gentlemen that I have
never had a horse room, I have never had no news service, and the only
thing that I have ever had around Baltimore was the police chasing
me from one place to another. I have never had anything in Balti-
more where anyone can say that I have been in an office or anything
else.
Mr. Moser. Well, the police are chasing you for a reason, are they
noi '.
Mr. Sapperstein. Well, I guess they have reasons of their own,
1 don'1 know.
Mr. Moser. They must have some reason.
Mr. Sappersi bin. They have not chased me for no gambling.
Mr. Moser. .\<> gambling?
Mr Sapperstein. No. sir.
Mr. Moser. How about the numbers? You do not want to answer
about the numbers, which indicates to us you must have been engaged
in that. Could thai be the explanation?
Mr. Sapperstein. I cannot answer that question.
ORGANIZED CRIME EN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 127
Mr. Moser. "Well, that could be the explanation for the police
chasing.
Mr. Sapperstein. Xo, sir; I can't answer that.
Mr. Moser. You mean you refuse to answer?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you refuse to answer because you are afraid the
Baltimore police may arrest you for some local crime '.
Mr. Sapperstein. I just don't care to answer that, sir.
Mr. Moser. Well, I think your lawyers probably told you that you
are obligated to tell us something about the crime, that is, whether
it is a Federal or a State crime.
Mr. Sappersteix. I don't think I have committed a crime against
the Government in my life.
Mr. Moser. The Federal Government \
Mr. Sappersteix. That is right, sir.
Mr. Moser. Well, we do not intimate that you have.
Mr. Sapperstein. That is what you asked me, sir, about the Gov-
ernment, and I am telling you, sir.
Mr. Moser. Well, you think you have committed no crime against
the Federal Government?
Mr. Sapperstein. None whatsoever.
Mr. Moser. You have reported all your income in your income-tax
returns
Mr. Sappersteix. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser (continuing). So that the only fear that you have is
a State crime ; is that right ?
Mr. Sappersteix. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. Well, you will say that you have no fear of incrimina-
tion for a Federal crime; is that correct?
Mr. Sappersteix. That is right, sir.
Mi\ Moser. If you have any fear of an incrimination at all, it must
be with respect to a State crime.
Mr. Sapperstein. I refuse to answer your question, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you know who Chief Souers is?
Mr. Sappersteix. Xo, sir.
Mr. Moser. Xever heard of him (
Mr. Sapperstein. I have heard of him.
Mr. Moser. But you do not know him ?
Mr. Sappersteix. Xo. sir.
Mr. Moser. Xever had any dealings with him?
Mr. Sappersteix. Xo, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you know where he is \
Mr. Sappersteix. Wouldn't know him if he sat in the room.
Mr. Moser. Do you know where his place of duty was ?
Mr. Sappersteix. Wouldn't know him if he sat here outside of
what I read in the newspapers the last few days.
Mr. Moser. Who is Marty Sapperstein 3
Mr. Sappersteix. Morty '.
Mr. Moser. Marty or Morty. I do not know which.
Mr. Sappersteix. Xever heard of the name.
Mr. M< »ser. Xever heard of him ?
Mr. Sappersteix. Xo, sir.
Mr. Moser. There is a man Morty Sapperstein at 2329 Utah Place.
Mr. Sappersteix. Xever heard the name, sir.
128 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Moser. Who is Rose Sapperstein ?
Mr. Sapperstein. That is my wife.
Mr. Moser. Your wife?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. A.nd your wife lives at-
Mr. Sapperstein. 4119 Boarman Avenue.
Mr. MOSER. The same address?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. What is the address at 3020 Reisterstown Road?
Mr. Sapperstein. Don't know where it is, and never been there in
my life : don't know what you are referring to, sir.
Mr. Moser. What is your telephone number?
Mr. Sapperstein. Liberty 1096.
Mr. Moser. Do you know of any other Rose Sapperstein besides
your wife?
Mr. Sapperstein. There is a Rose Sapperstein, I think it is in the
real -est ate business.
Mr. Moser. Do you know where, approximately?
Mr. Sapperstein. No; I don't. I wouldn't know the lady. I'know
she is in the phone book, and we get quite a few calls in her name.
Mr. Moser. Have you ever made any calls to a reform school at
Hagerstown, Aid?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you know whether Rose has ?
Mr. Sapperstein. Not Rose ; no, sir.
Mr. Moser. Have you ever laid off any bets outside of the State
of Maryland?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Did you ever lay off any bets?
Mr. Sapperstein. I have been fooling with horses, and I mean
Mr. Moser. When they get a little high you lay them off?
Mr. Sapperstein. I wouldn't answer you that, sir; I can't answTer
you that, sir.
Mr. Moser. I am afraid we did not get the answer to the question.
I said, have you ever laid off any bets, and you said what?
Mr. Sapperstein. Laid off?
Mr. Moser. Yes.
Mr. Sapperstein. I don't know exactly what you mean, sir. You
mean, did 1 give someone else a — on the telephones or call long distance
and gave them
Mr. Moser. Did you ever have a bet that was too heavy with you
that you shared with anybody else?
Mr. Sapperstein. I don't book no horses, sir.
Mr. Moser, That is different, Never laid off your own bets with
anybody else?
Mr. Sapperstein. I bet on my own, yes; I have bet.
Mr. Moser. On your own?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. You sometimes shared them with others?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir. I have no reason to share.
Mr. Moser. Have you ever laid off any numbers that were too high
for you?
Mr. Sapperstein. I refuse to answer that, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 129
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer? And the reason you refuse to
answer is because of fear of incrimination?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Is it fear of incrimination with respect to the Federal
Government or any Federal offense?
Mr. Sapperstein. I can't answer that.
Mr. Moser. Your answer is ""No," is it not?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. I think we had better instruct the witness to answer
the questions that lie lias refused to answer for fear of incrimination.
Senator Hunt. The acting- chairman of the subcommittee directs the
witness to answer the questions asked by the counsel.
Mr. Sapperstein. I think you are a Senator, sir. I think I have
seen your picture in the paper, that is about the only
Senator Hunt. I am Senator Hunt, and if you wish not to answer,
why then, you should say that you refuse to answer because of self-
incrimination.
Mr. Sapperstein. Thank you, sir. I refuse to answer the questions,
sir.
Mr. Moser. Because of self-incrimination?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. You have said that you did not want to answer certain
questions on the grounds of incrimination.
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Will you tell me whether the crime with respect to
which you fear incrimination occurred more than 10 years ago?
Mr. Sapperstein. I refuse to answer that, sir, if I am allowed to.
Mr. Moser. You are allowed to refuse to answer any question that
will incriminate you.
Mr. Sapperstein. I will refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. But I should point out to you in case your own counsel
has not advised you, that there is a statute of limitations and after
the expiration of a certain amount of time, you cannot be prosecuted.
You have heard of that?
Mr. Sapperstein. I don't care to be degraded by the newspapers,
and I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Moser. Well now, wait. You refuse to answer because you are
afraid of the newspapers ?
Mr. Sapperstein. If you know the newspapers, I guess you can
understand. I am here — you are asking me questions, sir, that I do
not think should be asked me in this investigation.
Mr. Moser. Well, now, I am not asking you to tell anything that
will incriminate you. I am trying to find out whether the incrimina-
tion that you fear is something that is so old that it would be barred
by the statute of limitations.
Mr. Sapperstein. It might be barred by you, sir, but it won't be
barred by the newspapers.
Mr. Moser. But the newspapers cannot send you to jail, and they
cannot
Mr. Sapperstein. I understand that, sir, but they can do worse
than send you to jail.
Mr. Moser. But your fear must be of incrimination and not fear of
publicity, do you understand that?
Mr. Sapperstein. Both.
130 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Moser. Do you fear incrimination for something that occurred
10 years ago?
Mr. Sapperstein. Well, I guess I can answer that. T can't explain
myself on that, sir. I don't think that it has any dealings with this
investigation.
Mr. Moser. I am trying to find out whether your claim of incrimi-
nation
Mr. Sapi'erstein. I can't answer that, sir. I refuse to answer that
question.
.Mr. Moser. Let me finish. I am trying to find out whether your
claim of incrimination is in good faith or it is merely because you do
not want to answer because of publicity.
Mr. Sapperstein. It is that I have so much — I think — I do not
know, I was going to say you could ask someone here — I have noth-
ing, sir, I feel that I have nothing to fear outside of degrading myself,
degrading my folks, my kids that have been around me for the past
25, 80 years, and I don't care to answer them questions.
Mi'.'Moser. Because you are afraid of publicity, is that correct ?
Mr. Sapperstein. That is right, sir.
Mr. Moser. And that is the only reason ?
Mr. Sapperstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. That is the only thing you fear ?
Mr. Smith. These men are not reporters.
Mr. Sapperstein. I know, but when I walk out of here the reporters
seem to know what I said.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Moser. Back on the record.
Coming back to the subject of numbers only, you refuse to answer
questions-
Mr. Sapperstein. I am not in the numbers business, sir.
Mr. Moser. Have you been in the lottery business ?
Mr. Sapperstein. I am not in the lottery business, sir.
Mi\ Moser. Have you been
Mr. Sapperstein. I am not in the business, that is all I care to
answer.
Mr. Moser. You are not in the business now, you mean?
Mr. Sapperstein. I am not in the business.
Mr. Moser. And you refuse to answer whether you ever have been,
is that correct?
Mr. Sapperstein. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Moser. You refuse to answer on the ground that it may incrim-
inate you; is that correct?
Mr. Sapperstein. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Moser. And in that connection have you any fear of any Federal
incrimination?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mi-. Moser. No; just State; is that correct?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir. I refuse to answer that. Senator Hunt
told me that, he explained to me just a minute ago what to answer,
and that is just what I am trying to state to you.
Mr. Moser. Will you instruct him to answer the questions, and
then I am through with him.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman of the subcommittee directs
the witness to answer the last questions asked by counsel, and I will
ask the reporter to repeat the last question, if he will.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 131
(The last question was read.) .
Senator Hunt. The Chair directs you to answer the question asked
by counsel, do you fear incrimination just from the State and not from
the Federal Government?
Mr. Sapperstein. You told me, sir, that I didn't have to answer
questions, sir.
Senator Hunt. You have to say that you refuse to answer the ques-
tions because of self-incrimination, if that is the answer you want to
five.
" Mr. Sapperstein. Yes ; that is the answer, sir. That is what I want
to state. . . .
Mr. Moser. Mr. Sapperstein, we do not want to incriminate you,
but we do want to get some information about how numbers and
lotteries work, and whether there are any interstate connections.
Would you be willing to tell us anything about how the numbers work ?
Mr. Sapperstein. I can only tell you about myself, sir ; that I do no
business with no out-of-State or anywhere else.
Mr. Moser. It is all within the State?
Mr. Sapperstein. I refuse to answer that, sir.
Mr. Moser. But you have no interstate connections in your activ-
ities, is that correct?
Mr. Sapperstein. That is correct.
Mr. Moser. Have you had any dealings with Willie Adams?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. None at all ?
Mr. Sapperstein. I know who you are talking about.
Mr. Moser. Your mouth is covered. I can't hear you.
Mr. Sapperstein. Excuse me, sir. I know who you are referring to.
Mr. Moser. You know him personally ?
Mr. Sapperstein. Just know him.
Mr. Moser. Have you had any dealings with him ?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. No business dealings with him?
Mr. Sapperstein. No, sir.
Senator Hunt. That is all, Mr. Sapperstein.
Mr. Sapperstein. Thank you, sir.
Senator Hunt. Mr. Matusky, would you stand and be sworn, please ?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give this committee
will' be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Matusky. I do.
Mr. Moser. Mr. Matusky, will you state your name and address,
please?
TESTIMONY OF LEONARD J. MATUSKY, BALTIMORE, MD.
Mr. Matusky. Leonard J. Matusky, 1553 Sheffield Road.
Mr. Moser. Were you served with a subpena ?
Mr. Matusky. No.
Mr. Moser. You come voluntarily?
Mr. Matusky. That is right, sir.
Mr. Moser. Have you any records available that you could supply to
ns with regard to the income tax of the World-Wide News and Music
Service ?
132 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Matuskt. No; I don't.
Mr. Moseb. You have none with you?
Mr. Matuskt. No; I don't.
Mr. Moser. But you would be willing to give us what we asked for,
wouldn't you?
Mr. Matuskt. Yes, sir.
M r. Moser. Would you tell us the corporate set-up of that business,
the names of the corporations, the States in which they are incorpo-
rated, and so forth ?
Mr. Matuskt. Incorporated in the State of Maryland.
Mr. Moser. First, the name.
Mr. Matuskt. What do you mean, the officers?
Mr. .Moser. The corporate names.
Mr. Matuskt. World-Wide News and Music Service, Inc.
Mr. Moser. What is the address of that?
Mr. Matuskt. 210 East Redwood.
Mr. Moser. The address you gave us for yourself is your residence;
is that correct?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right.
Mr. Moser. And this is your business address?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right.
Mr. Moser. What is your position in this company?
Mr. Matuskt. President.
Mr. Moser. You are the president of it?
Mr. Matuskt. Yes.
Mr. Moser. Will you name the officers ?
Mr. Matuskt. I am the president, my wife is secretary and treas-
urer.
Mr. Moser. Your wife ?
Mr. Matuskt. Yes.
Mr. Moser. Give her name.
Mr. Matuskt. Gertrude E. ; Samuel Niles is vice president.
Mr. Moser. Who is the secretary and treasurer, are you?
Mr. Matuskt. The wife.
Mr. Moser. Your wife ?
Mr. Matuskt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Your wife is secretary and treasurer, both?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right.
Mr. Moser. Who are the directors?
Mr. Matuskt. Well, that is the directors.
Mr. Moser. The officers constitute the whole board of directors?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right.
Mr. Moser. Who are the stockholders?
Mr. Matuskt. What do you mean by stockholders ?
Mr. Moser. Who owns the stock of the corporation ?
Mr. Matuskt. That is something I would rather — I was told to
come here to bring m}r private line customers, and I am not here with
counsel, and I would rather not answer that.
Mr. Moser. You do not want to reveal who the stockholders of your
corporation are?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right, and I got legal advice. I was asked
by Mr. Jackson over the phone Saturday. T think, somewhere around
11 : 30, to come here and bring my private line customers, and my per-
sonnel, and that is what I have with me.
ORGANIZED CRIME EN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 133
Mr. Moser. Well, we could compel you to reveal the names of the
stockholders. I would like to have you give us a reason.
Mr. Matusky. I would like to have my counsel — I would like to
talk to counsel.
Mr. Moser. All right.
Senator Tobey. What is the music part of the business?
Mr. Matusky. Why, we are on the air from 9 to 2 a. m. in the morn-
ing. Actually as far as racing is concerned, we give probably about
40 or 50 minutes. I have the exact times of racing. We devote our
time
Mr. Moser. We will go into that step by step, if that is all right
with you, Senator.
Senator Tobey. Certainly.
Mr. Moser. You do not want to reveal the stockholders. Would
you tell me whether the stockholders are a corporation or an indi-
vidual or more ?
Mr. Matusky. I would rather have advice of counsel. If I knew
you were going to ask me these questions I would have had counsel.
Mr. Moser. All right. Will you consult counsel and then will you
please furnish us with the names of the stockholders?
Mr. Matusky. That is right, sir.
Mr. Moser. All right.
Will you describe generally the nature of the business of World-
Wide News and Music Service. Inc.?
Mr. Matusky. We are on the air from 9 until 2 o'clock in the
morning, and Sunday from 2 p. m. until 2 a. m., giving music. Of
course, there is no racing in the morning, and no racing at night.
At night we give baseball, fights, wrestling, or whatever may come
over in sporting. In the afternoons, when there is tennis or whatever
may be in the sporting line comes over our Western Union wires, we
give that service out.
In between — we don't have now — we had local advertising and I
have a list of — for instance, if the gentlemen here care to see it, here
is some of the mail that I have gotten that has come in, I have not
opened it yet this morning.
Senator Tobey. Do you own a radio broadcasting station? Do
you have a radio station of your own?
Mr. Matusky. Well, we operate on a basis the same as a radio
station, that is. giving race results, everything in the sporting line.
Senator Tobey. I see.
Mr. Smith. It is over leased wires ?
Mr. Matusky. Over leased wires, and in between we play music.
Senator Tobey. Do you have any religious services?
Mr. Matusky. No, sir.
Senator Hunt. May I ask a question ? Do you own the station ?
Mr. Matusky. Do I own the station? Xo, sir.
Senator Hunt. Do you own a radio station ?
Mi'. Matusky. No; we don't own a radio station. I can explain
it to you a lot better, gentlemen. We use telephone wires, private
line telephone wires, the same as if you would have an extension
between here, and, say, 10 blocks away, so the telephone company
installs those wires in the location and
Mr. Moser. In vour office.
134 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Matttsky. Not from our office, from their exchange. We only
have one line running from our broadcast studio to the central office of
the telephone company. From there it is redistributed over the city
of Baltimore.
Senator Hunt. That goes into the private homes over a private
telephone line?
Mr. Matusky. Some private homes. We don't have many private
homes. Most of my accounts are in taverns.
Mr. Moser. The wires run from the telephone company into the
tavern?
Mr. Matusky. That is right. We have one line running from our
office into the central office in Baltimore, say, Plaza, that is the central
office, and we have the amplifying equipment that will take care of
up to 200 customers. We don't have anything like that or never did
have, but it would take care of as many as 200.
Mr. Moser. Where is that amplifier?
Mr. Matusky. That is in the telephone company's exchange.
Mr. Moser. And they have a room in which this is amplified?
Mr. Matusky. They reamplify it.
Mr. Moser. It is amplified into telephones?
Mr. Matusky. That is right, in the telephone company and over
these private lines in order for the account to receive it at the other
end. It comes in a speaker, similar to a radio. A person can turn it
on and listen to it for an hour if he wants to listen to it from 9 to 2
a. m., and if so, he can.
Senator Hunt. That is attached to his telephone?
Mr. Matusky. That is right. It is just a little block. The telephone
company installs two wires, and our speaker is attached to this tele-
phone-company line and it is an amplifier, and you can turn it on and
get music, whatever you want to listen to.
Mr. Moser. If the tavern wants to listen to it you must have an
amplifier there?
Mr. Matusky. That is right. The same idea as the idea of Muzak in
most places. We give the same type of music, which is the same as
Muzak, and also sporting results, and anything coming in in the sport-
ing line that may be of interest to the public, which we feel is in the
interest of the public. We get a lot of stuff that comes from colleges,
racetracks; CBS in Baltimore, we get their service exclusively, and
we read that over the broadcast; MGM, all the studios send it. We
do not icad it all; we just read the things that we think would be
of interest to men in taverns, and clubs — we read that.
Mr. Moser. Where do you get your information ?
Mr. Matusky. Why, our information is mailed to us. Here is
the mail that was just sent here, this morning's mail, that I got through
here from CBS. if you care to look at it.
Mr. Moser. You have mail coming in that gives you information?
Mr. Matusky. That is right ; that is mailed to us.
Mr. Moser. Y\ nat do you get from Howard Sports News?
Mr. Matusky. Why, that is sent from their office over a private
line.
Mr. Moses. They send you race results over a private line?
Mr. Matusky. That is right. They send race results over a private
line.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 135
Mr. Moser. You receive that and then broadcast through this sys-
tem yourself?
Mr. Matusky. We rebroadcast it ; that is right.
Mr. Moser. Do you have any wire service other than Howard Sports
that furnishes you with information?
Mr. Matusky. Why, at present, I don't. I did have Trans Radio.
Mr. Moser. Trans Radio News?
Mr. Matusky. Had Trans Radio at one time.
Mr. Moser. Now, Mr. Matusky, I would like to save time if I can on
this, and I think I can if you will cooperate.
We would like to have our investigators obtain from you your
sources of news, a list of your sources of news, including the wire
services, as of April 1, 1950.
We would also like to have the same information as of January 1,
1951.
Mr. Matusky. I gave that as of 1948 to a Mr. Farrell. I gave him
a list of all the accounts we have had at different times from 1948.
Mr. Moser. We do not seem to have them in our file.
Mr. Matusky. It was given to him.
Mr. Moser. We do not have in our file the names of your customers.
Mr. Matusky. It was asked for this past Friday a week ago.
Mi-. Moser. Let us assume for the moment we have got it.
Mr. Matusky. I have a copy of it here, I think.
Mr. Moser. Mr. Matusky, we have a list obtained from the phone
company of the leased wires.
Mr. Matusky. That is right, sir.
Mr. Moser. Those are }7our customers ?
Mr. Matusky. That is right. They were my customers. They are
not now. At present I have not — at present I have seven operating
accounts. I wrote the telephone company a letter when I called
before the grand jury, and besides what you have there, we also take
local advertising that does not take over a minute, for instance, like
moving companies, clothing stores, and stuff like that.
Mr. Moser. You mean over your broadcasting system ?
Mr. Matusky. That is right*.
Mr. Moser. You give out advertising?
Mr. Matusky. That is right. In other words — we operated similar
to a radio station. A record is finished, and we have some time in
between, and we will read one of those plugs or one of the commer-
cials that we have for advertising and I have since 1948 been trying
to get national advertisers, of which some of them are interested.
I have letters of those from 1948 on, from the Gillette people, and,
well, there is quite a few of them here. Here is a list of accounts I
have. I can give you everything you would like to have now.
Tli is is from May 4, 1950. March 28, 1951. The ones that are erased
have been canceled. One of them is one I had home, I canceled that.
Mr. Moser. What we want to have is the status as of specific dates.
I have here May 4, 1950, and that is a list — this is a letter addressed
to World-Wide News Service, dated May 4, 1950, signed by J. H.
Valentine from the Chesapeake & Potomac Telephone Co. It purports
to give a list of the — and addresses at which your programs are being
billed as of that date.
Mr. Matusky. Well, that is what you have there.
Mr. Moser. Yes.
136 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Afr. M \h>ky. T do not have any of those programs which are being
billed now. I am only keeping those seven accounts now to protect
my ; 1 1 1 1 1 > 1 i IV i 1 i g equ i pment.
Air. Moser. You understand, Air. Matusky, what I want to do is
to find out the status of it on May 4, 1950, which you have given me
with this, the status of your customers.
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
M r. .Mosi.k. L would like the same thing as of January 1, 1951 ; and
you have also furnished us with a list on March 28, 1951, showing that
the list which in May of 1950 numbered 36, has now been reduced to
7. is that correct '.
Air. Matusky. That is right.
Air. Moser. I would like to have a list also supplied to me of the
stains of your customers on January 1. L951. Will you supply that to
US please '.
Air. Matusky. I was just wondering whether I would have that
now. Would that be the same date as Mr. AicFarland asked for the
list?
Air. Moser. I do not know.
Air. AI An sky. That letter, I think, here that I sent. That was
of ATay 5. L950, that original list you have there.
This is a copy of what I gave to Air. Farrell.
Air. AIoser. This is dated May 5, 1950, is it not ?
Mr. Matusky. That is right, I think it was when I received a
wire from, was it Air. AicFarland, who is head of some committee?
Senator Hunt. Yes, that was a committee on Interstate and P'oreign
Commerce. He was chairman of the subcommittee, and was investi-
gat ing wire service.
Air. Moser. This should be the same as the list you gave.
Air. AIatusky. That would be about what I would have from Janu-
ary 1950, and the other wTould be March. That would be just up to
that date, in March is wdien most of those accounts were canceled.
Air. AIoser. It looks like a different list.
Mr. Matusky. No; it should be the same. The only thing you
would find would be different would be that I have, if you will notice,
inactive and active accounts.
Air. Moser. Why is Howard Sports daily on your list of inactive
accounts?
Air. Matusky. Howard Sports? Can I come over there? Maybe
I can help you.
Mr. Moser. Yes.
Senator Hunt. Yes; you can come over, Mr. Matusky.
Mr. Moser. I do not understand, Mr. Matusky, why you have 36
on one list, and a lot less on the other. It seems to me there are about a
dozen.
Mr. MatuskYi Of which 19 arc inactive, and the following are
active accounts.
ATr. Moser. This includes inactive?
Mr. Matusky. No; that is both inactive and active accounts. You
see I have here the •">('» lines of C. & P. Telephone Co., of which 19 are
active, and the following active lines in operation Afay 1.
Mr. Mo-uk. How do you account for the fact that Howard Sports
News is on your inacl ive list ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 137
Mr. Matusky. Xo; that is operating. Fifteen drops of Western
Union, on which nine are inactive, and the following are operating
and Howard is operating.
Mr. Moser. Howard Sports News ; that is a drop ?
Mr. Matusky. That is a drop.
Mr. Moser. From yon to them?
Mr. Matusky. From them to me.
Mr. Moser. From them to you?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Moser. Then, are these all sources?
Mr. Matusky. Xo: these are accounts, and Howard Sports is the
only one source of information.
Mr. Moser. Then, the Howard Sports daily is a source of infor-
mation.
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Moser. Whereas the others are accounts.
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Moser. Can you supply us the same information as of January
1, 1951?
Mr. Matusky. I can; but I would say it would be about the same
as this.
Mr. Moser. Would yon supply us the exact list?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Moser/ Will you mail that to us?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Moser. All right. Thank yon.
At the bottom of this list, dated May 5, 1950, which you say you
supplied to the McFarland committee, it says, "Eleven clients who
are identified by call-in numbers only, telephone this office for various
sports news." and then you list 11 numbers which are code numbers.
Mr. Matusky. That is right, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you know who they are?
Mr. Matusky. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do you ever make any attempt to find out who they
are^
Mr. Matusky. Why, no; I don't.
Mr. Moser. How do you get them as customers?
Mr. Matusky. They come in and ask for the service, and when we
sign them — give them a number, they call in on sort of a telephone
number, and get whatever they may want.
Now, lots of those fellows are horsemen and own horses, and they
are in town, and usually they are — only 2 or 3 weeks, probably not
long, while their horses are here in Maryland, and they may have
horses in other places.
Mr. Moser. You have an understanding from them that you will
not attempt to ascertain their identity; is that right?
Mr. Matusky. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. Moser. But you do not attempt to ascertain their identity,
do you?
Mr. Matusky. Well, we ask them what their name is, and they give
you the first name.
Mr. Moser. So you don't know their identitj', except by their first
name?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
138 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Moser. And you do not attempt to ?
Mr. Matusky. No.
Mr. Moser. If you did attempt to what would they do ?
Mr. Matusky. I don't know. I never tried it. I mean I didn't know
it was compulsory, other than on private lines. We do attempt to
do that on private lines, and the telephone company inspects those
accounts before they are installed.
Mr. Moser. Then, these unknown accounts know that you are not
going to ask them their identity; isn't that true?
Mr. Mati sky. 1 would not say that they do; no.
Mr. Moser. Isn't it a rather unusual way of doing business to have
unidentified customers?
Mr. Matusky. Well, I have been around this business, not too
long — I have been around about 14 years, and that has always been
the way to handle any customers that call in. You just give him a
number ; you don't even try to get his name.
Mr. Moser. And you will do that for anybody who calls in?
Mr. Matusky. Anybody who calls in, yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. Do they have to come in personally?
Mr. Matusky. Well, they don't have to come in personally, no,
sir, as long as they come up and pay their money for the week, and
that is the way it operates.
Mr. Moser. They pay once a week?
Mr. Matusky. That is right, sir.
Mr. Moser. And they pay in cash?
Mr. Matusky. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. They always pay in cash?
Mr. Matusky. Yes, sir; most of them do, not always. I would
say there is very few checks.
Mr. Moser. Do these unidentified customers sometimes pay by
check ?
Mr. Matusky. Well, not that I can recall, no, sir. In fact, there
are very few paid by check.
Mr. Moser. Can you tell us how much each one of these pays, these
unidentified numbers?
Mr. Matusky. Forty dollars a week.
Mr. Moser. Forty dollars a week?
Mr. Matusky. That is right. Some pay less. I would say the
average would be — most of them are $40, but some of them pay $30
a week.
Mr. Moser. Why do some pay less than others?
Mr. Matusky. Well, some of them may be calling two or three
times a whole week, and they tell you they are only going to call in
two or three times that whole week, and for that reason "all we charge
them is $30 a week.
Mr. Moser. Now, the Howard News Service, you know about, of
course '.
Mr. M \tusky. Yes, sir.
M i . Moser. Are they a competitor of yours?
Mr. Matusky. A competitor? In a way I would say they are.
They are not a competitor of mine as far as my measure of business
is concerned, due to the fact that my business is loud-speaker systems
in public place-, which is open to anyone.
Mr. Moser. Bui you have a system of call-in numbers where you
give individual information; isn't that correct?
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 139
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Moser. And that is not the loud-speaker system?
.Mr. Matusky. No; that is not the loud-speaker system.
Mr. Moser. Does Howard have the same system that you do with
regard to the unidentified customers?
.Mr. Matusky. So far as I know.
Mr. Moskk. Do you know how much they charge?
Mr. Matusky. No; 1 don't other than what I read in the papers.
I don't think they tell me what they charge. They are a competitor,
as you say ; they are a competitor of mine.
Mr. Moser. I understand you to say that some pay less. Do you
negotiate with them over the telephone as to how much they are going
to pay?
Mr. Matusky. No ; not necessarily. I would say, in fact, the call-
ins, most of them come in and ask for the service, tell you they would
like to have the service, and they will pay for the service and call
in for it.
Mr. Moser. When you supply us with this list of customers, will
you also include the list of unidentified customers who are identi-
fied by code only, and opposite each one will you place the weekly
payment that they make for the service?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Moser. Will you also furnish us the same information with
regard to the listed customers, the identified customers, the amount
they pay per week for the service?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Moser. In connection with your business, you receive pay-
ment from these identified customers. Do they pay in cash?
Mr. Matusky. Most of them do ; yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. And occasionally by check ?
Mr. Matusky. Occasionally; that is very seldom.
Mr. Moser. The telephone company sends some of the bills, or
do they send them direct?
Mr. Matusky. No; they send the bills directly to me. The way
it works, a subscriber will call. For instance, it could be you, and
he tells me that they want a service in a certain tavern. They give
me the name of the tavern. I, in turn, call the telephone company
and give them the order. They, in turn, send an inspector out and
inspect the location to see if it is a proper place to have that type of
service; and, if it isn't, they turn the order dowm, which is quite often,
and if they think it is a proper place they install the service.
Mr. Moser. What is their measure of what they think is proper
or improper ?
Mr. Matusky. I wouldn't know that, sir. They have their own
inspectors, and go out and question the prospective subscriber.
Mr. Moser. Don't you have anything to do with the selection of
the subscribers ?
Mr. Matusky. No, sir; I don't. There is no reason for me to go
out, because my word would not be any good at all. The phone com-
pany wouldn't put it in on my say-so.
Mr. Moser. So, the phone company establishes all of these cus-
tomers at your request ?
Mr. Matusky. That is right. They send their own inspectors out,
and thev send them out
140 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Moser. I a\ n nt to make clear what information we want you
to give US. I >o yon want to make a note of it ? I have three dates
in mind. May 1. L950
Mr. Matuskt. What date?
Mr. Moser. May !. L950; January 1, 1951, and July 1. 1951, al-
though we would he satisfied with a date like March 28, which is
whal yon have given us here.
Mr. Matuskt. Well, the reason I gol that, that was right before
1 went before the grand jury.
Mr. Moser. I think 1 will ask you to give us July 1.
Mr. Matuskt. .Inly 1?
.Mr. Moser. L951.
Mr. Matuskt. That would he the same as what I have there; there
is nothing else.
Mr. Moser. All right, give us the full list of all customers on each
of those dates, with the amount that they pay for the service, indi-
cating whether they pay by check or by cash. AVill you do that?
Mr. Matuskt. Yes.
Mr. Moser. ^'ill yon supply that to us under oath?
Mr. Matuskt. 1 don't know just what you mean by that.
Mr. Moser. You will supply it to us, and you understand that you
are doing so under oath as part of this testimony? Will you do that?
Mr. Matuskt. 1 am not an attorney. You are asking me — I am
going to give you just what yon asked for, and by giving you what
1 have, my actual records, that would be accurate.
Mr. Moser. All right.
Now, you pay your expenses out of the income you receive, and
the balance, which we might call your net income, what happens
to that?
Mr. Matuskt. Well, there hasn't been any much of a balance as
far as my company has been concerned. 1 operate a very small busi-
ness. It is operated in the State of Maryland here, and there hasn't
been anything to amount to anything, maybe $1,200, $1,500, or some-
thing like that.
Mr. Moser. A year?
Mr. Matuskt. That or maybe more. For instance, last year was
a loss last year.
Mr. Moser. 1950?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right, sir.
Mr. Moser. What was it the year before ?
Mr. Mai i skt. I would say roughly it could have been $1,500 or
$2,500 profit.
Mi'. Moser. Is this your only source of income?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right, sir.
Mr. Moser. You and your wife together?
Mr. Mai QSKT. That is right.
Mr. Moser. And your wi fe has no other income?
Mr. M vi i skt. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. And your only income was $1,500?
Mr. Matuskt. No: 1 draw a salary. I am referring to my income-
tax report, what profit was made at the end of the year; that is what
I am referring to.
Mr. Moser. Now, then, among the expenses paid, do you have any
expenses besides salaries, rent, and telephone expenses, and your
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 141
salaries I guess I mentioned, and do you have any expenses that fluc-
tuate according to the amount of business thai you do?
Mr. Matusky. No. The only expenses I would have are prob-
ably petty cash, and that would run maybe $40, $50, or some weeks
$60.
Mr. Moser. How much do you pay Howard Sports Daily for the
informal ion I hey give you \
Mr. Matusky. My last payments were $300 a week.
Mr. MoSER. Three hundred dollars a week?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Moseh. How much was it in 1950?
Mr. Matusky. I would say it was about the same. It may have
been $250 al the lowest, between $250
Mr. Moser. It is lower in 1950?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Moser. It is higher now?
Mr. Matusky. It is not higher now. I have paid nothing to
Howard ; I have hot paid them for 6 months or more.
Mr. Moser. You have not gotten service from them?
Mr. Matusky. The wire is still there. I am not paying Howard
anything. I am not in a position to pay anything with no business.
Mr. Moser. Do you have an agreement in which you pay them a
lixed amount per month?
Mr. Matusky. Per week.
Mr. Moser. Per week?
Mr. Matusky. There is no arrangement. There is a verbal agree-
ment. I imagine, if my business was larger, they probably would
charge me more money, the same as I would do with a private home.
I would charge them less than 1 do with a business place, due to the
fact that the business place is commercialized and making money on
my type of service. That, in my opinion, is an appropriate type of
service for any private location.
Mr. Moser. A private home- pays less?
Mr. Matusky. That is right,
Mr. Moser. How do you know it is a private home ?
Mr. Matusky. Because the line is installed in there. We had one
in the Belvedere Hotel for years. There was a fellow there — I mean,
I won't mention his name, because I notice they get publicized — he
is well known as a horseman. In fact, the man is a millionaire, and
is only in town 2 or 3 months. He only paid $300 a year.
Mr. Moser. Now, you set the price of your service according to
whether they are in commercial or not.
Mr. Matusky. That is right, sir. If it is a private home, they pay
less; if they commercialize it in a public place where people come in
and out, they pay more.
Mr. Moser. Now, you say that you have not paid the Howard Sports
Daily. Do you owe them?
Mr. Matusky. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. You do owe them?
Mr. Matusky. That is right, sir.
Mr. Moser. How much do you owe them? Is it $300 a week?
Mr. Matusky. I have not received a bill. I would not owe them
$300 a week. I could not pay $300 a week. I have no business to
pay that.
85277— 51— pt. 17 -10
142 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Moser. In other words, when your business falls off, they don't
charge you; is that correct?
Mr. M.vn sky. No; thai is not the reason.
Mr. Mosee. Well, your fee, the charge they have, is $300 a week;
is thai right?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right, $300 a week. Of course, it could be
less. I am not doing the business, and I just told them I was not able
to pay them, and I have not received a bill since that time.
Mr. Moser. If they sent you a bill for $300 a week for the last 6
weeks, what would you say?
Mr. Matuskt. I would not pay it, I could not pay it because it
would be ridiculous for me to pay $300 a week for service because I
am not using it at present, oh, I would say for the past 4 months. I
was not taking in $300 a week; so, I certainly could not pay $300 a
week for that type of service.
Mr. Moser. In previous years, when you made more money, how
much did you pay them when you used the service?
Mr. Matuskt. There never was a higher rate than $300.
Mr. Moser. That was the highest?
Mr. Matuskt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. In previous years, when you paid $300, and you had
a profit left over, what did you do with that?
Mr. Matuskt. Well, I don't recall offhand. I mean I have declared
a bonus.
Mr. Moser. To whom?
Mr. Matuskt. To some of the help, I mean, but that has not been
recently. That has been sometime ago. I wouldn't know offhand.
Mr. Moser. Has the corporation ever declared a dividend?
Mr. Matusky. No, sir.
Mr. Moser. Never declared a dividend?
Mr. Matusky. No, sir. "We operate — not to interrupt you — but our
business is operated as a business that would just operate enough to
make a living out of it, We average, I would say, in the matter of a
year we might hit a peak of 36 customers which you have there, of
which 19 were only active. So, our average customers would be 20,
25 customers.
Mr. Moser. When you receive your payment in cash, do you give
receipts?
Mr. Matusky. If they ask for them, yes, sir. We have receipts if
they ask for receipts, and we give them a receipt.
Mr. Moser. When you receive the cash, what do you do with it ?
Mr. Matusky. Deposit it in the bank.
Mr. Moser. What bank ?
Mr. Matuskt. Equitable Trust.
Mr. Moser. Equitable Trust?
Mr. Matusky. That is right,
Mr. Moser. Is that the only bank account of the corporation ?
Mr. Matusky. That is right,
Mr. Moser. Do you have a personal bank account besides?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Mosi k. What hank is that?
Mr. Matuskt. Equitable, and I have a checking account in the
Maryland Trust— not the Maryland Trust, the Union Trust, rather.
Mr. Moser. What kind of account do you have there?
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 143
Mr. Matusky. Checking account.
Mr. Moser. Did you ever learn of your customers being convicted
of bookmaking?
Mr. Matusky. "When I do, the service is automatically discon-
nected.
Mr. Moser. For good I
Mr. Matusky. That is right, sir. I would say for good now. They
come back in 2 or 3 years, and if the phone company feels that the
place has changed, we install the service in those locations.
Mr. Moser. In other words, you do not sell your service to any-
body who is known to be a bookie, a bookmaker \
Mr. Matusky. That is right, because we inspect the locations.
Mr. Moser. But you understand that these unidentified customers
might very well be bookmakers, isn't that true?
Mr. Matusky. They could be, but I wouldn't think so. A book-
maker. 1 would say. would have to have service where he is on all day
long and listening to something that is happening, and he would have
to have prices, and know what is happening before the race. He can't
call up after the race is over with and get a result. That is what the
call-in customer gets when the race is over. As a matter of fact, they
can get it off the radio as fast as they can get it off me.
Mr. Moser. Why do they pay you for it '.
Mr. Matusky. Well, they may not be in a location where they can
listen to a radio or they probably don't want to listen to a radio with
all those commercials that they have on. They are very annoying.
That is one reason why a tavern is paying for this type of service in
preference to listening to a radio.
Mr. Moser. You give the odds out over the telephone ?
Mr. Matusky. No.
Senator Hunt. What does the telephone charge for the installa-
tion of these, what do they call it, teleflash ?
Mr. Matusky. Teleflash. The telephone company charges $4.38,
and so much per mile.
Senator Hunt. Per mile?
Mr. Matusky. That is right, sir. I have a bill here, I think my
last month's bill.
Senator Hunt. How much would they charge me if I had one put
in a private home in Baltimore, per month?
Mr. Matusky. How much would they charge you, sir? A private
home would be, in your case, $300 a month, the same as this particular
location, or add three or four of them.
Senator Hunt. You do not mean that all of your customers pay
three or four hundred dollars a month to the telephone company ?
Mr. Matusky. No one pays the telephone company. I pay the
telephone company.
Senator Hunt. You pay the telephone company ?
Mr. Matusky. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moser. None of them pay you $300 a week ?
Mr. Matusky. No. My highest is $50; as I say, $2'5 a month up
to $50.
Mr. Moser. We understand. Mr. Matusky, from talking to one of
your employees, that it is possible for one of your customers to get
prerace odds. Do you deny that ?
144 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Mattjsky. Well, T moan if lie gives it to them. We have it.
Occasionally, I do not deny it. 1 could occasionally — a customer may
ask, Inn we don'1 give it over the service, and if the call-in may ask
one of the clerks whal price the horse is, he may give it to them.
Mr. Moser. If the customer asks for it he can get the prerace
odds?
Mr. Matusky. They are not supposed to do it, but I wouldn't say
they don't do it. because we don't give anything other than when the
race is over.
Mr: Moser. When you say you are not supposed, do you tell them
not to?
Mr. Mattjsky. I have told them, yes. I have told them not to give
any odds.
Mr. Moser. When you say you have told them not to, is that because
of any particular investigation going on?
Mr. Mattjsky. No particular reason.
Mr. Moser. Is it against the rules?
Mr. Mattjsky. Well. Howard is in that type of business, and I am
in a different type of business, and I doubt whether I would be —
whether I was able to buy anything from Howard if I did do that.
Mr. Moser. I do not see why a customer who pays $40 a week wants
to pay that amount of money unless lie is going to get pre-race odds.
Mr. Mattjsky. Well, he can get that without calling me. He can
look in any newspaper or buy a scratch sheet for a quarter and get the
pre-race odds. That is what I would have.
Mr. Moser. Mr. Matusky, you understand that we are expecting you
to consult your counsel with respect to the names of the stockholders,
and to supply us with an answer on that question.
Mr. Matusky. That is right, sir; I understand that.
Mr. Moser. That is all we have to ask. Thank you very much.
Mr. Matusky. Then, can I have those back? That will help me,
and as of May 1, 1950, you want the list of accounts, what they paid,
and then from January 1 to July 1, 1950.
Mr. Jackson. And the list of stockholders.
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Moser. Thank you.
Mr. Jackson. This is a statement for the record in relation to
William Adams, a witness before this committee.
Investigator Murray Jackson called at the offices of Joseph Kogan,
attorney, on Thursday. July 5, L951, at which time records pertaining
to Adams Realty Co., Charm Center, and written agreements between
one Lottie Johnson and William Adams were reviewed pursuant to
instruct ions given Adams by this committee.
The Chairman. This will be noted in the record.
( Whereupon, at I : 35 \>. m., the subc< nittee adjourned, subject to
call.)
ORGANIZED CBIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
wednesday, july 18, 1951
United States Senate,
Special Committee to Investigate
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce,
Washington, D. C.
executive session
The special committee met, pursuant to call of the chairman, at
2 : 15 p. m. in room P-36, United States Capitol Building, Senator
Estes Kefauver presiding.
Present: Senators O'Conor (chairman), Kefauver (presiding),
and Hunt.
Also present: Downey, Rice, associate counsel; Thomas S. Smith
and Murray Jackson, investigators.
Senator Kefauver. The committee will come to order.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this committee will
be the whole truth, so help you God?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF PALMER ROSENWINKLE, LINTHICUM, MD.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Rosenwinkle, what is your first name?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Palmer.
Senator Kefauver. R-o-s-e-n-w-i-n-k-l-e?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That is right.
Senator Kefauver. What is your address?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Linthicum, P. O. Maryland.
Senator Kefauver. You are here under subpena ?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Well, yes.
Senator Kefauver. By request ?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Yes, by request.
Senator Kefauver. Very well, counsel.
Mr. Rice. Your full name, Mr. Rosenwinkle?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Palmer Rosenwinkle.
Mr. Rice. And where do you live?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Linthicum, Md. P. O. Maryland, post office.
Mr. Rice. What is your present occupation?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. I am a bricklayer by trade, sir.
Mr. Rice. And you were formerly with the Anne Arundel County
police?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That is right, sir.
Mr. Rice. When was that?
145
146 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rosenwinkle. I went with the department in April 1938, and
terminated my employment March 27, 1948.
Mr. Rice. 1948?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And going back to 1945, you were on the force then ?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. I was then, yes, sir.
Mr. Rick. And what was your particular duty then? Where were
you stationed '.
Mr. Rosenwinkle. "Well, I went in the police department as a desk
clerk and then by an act of the Legislature I was made a desk sergeant.
I worked from nine in the morning until nine at night.
Mr. Rice. You were working from nine in the morning to nine at
night as a desk sergeant in 1945 '.
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That is right, sir.
Mi-. Kick. And at what station?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Ferndale.
Mr. Rice. Do you recall an incident which occurrred when Mrs.
Frankel made a complaint \
Mr. Rosenwinkle. I didn't recall it at the time until I came to
work the next morning.
Mr. Rice. Tell us about that.
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Well, when I came to work the next morning at
9 o'clock on Sunday morning, we have a big board, a daily record
board shows the number of calls for the clay. It's a continuation of
numbers for the year. That would show the complainant's name, the
charge, the officer's name, the investigating officer.
Mr. Rice. Are you referring to this ?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Yes, you have one. That is right, exactly, sir.
Mr. Rice. We will mark this "Exhibit A" and it is called a daily
record of complaints of Anne Arundel Police Department.
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Let me put on my glasses to see something, just
to straighten out something pertaining to the writing there. My
writing is different from other people. This is my writing right here.
In other words, you notice how I make my "A's."
Senator Kefauver. Let the paper be filed as exhibit 1.
(The document marked "Exhibit 1" will be found in the files of the
committee.)
Mr. Rick. Under date of May 6, 1945, there is a notation bearing
the number 5.
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That is the District of Columbia, and over here
is the number of your calls.
Mr. Rice. And you have Mrs. Frankel, the nature of the com-
Slaint is an invest igation investigated by Officers Wade and Flannery.
lay 6, 1945, at 2 : 10 a. m. under the column headed ''Report" where it
is indicated that there was ;< report made, and I take it that report
would be No. 584, is that correct \
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That is right, that would be it, yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Tell us a little bit about that.
Mr. Rosenwinkle. .Just one incident here. In other words, these
reports where it is marked "Report," that is not my writing.
Mr. Rice. Is that your writing on there on the Frankel complaint
at all?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. No, not at all.
Mr. Rice. Do you recognize whose writing it is?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 147
Mr. Rosenwinkle. No, sir; I don't recognize the writing itself,
but I know who was on the desk at the time.
Mr. Rice. Who was that, Sergeant Downs?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Sergeant Arthur T. Downs?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Do you recognize his writing?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Well now, I wouldn't say that was his writing,
but I know he was on the desk, but I know my own writing. In other
words, when the report is tiled I will mark it "No report" or "Report."
That is not my writing.
Mr. Rice. Just in an informal way tell us all you know about this
occurrence.
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Well, when I came in I heard some rumors in
the station that there had been some kind of shooting on Hammonds
Lane.
Mr. Rice. And that is in the county?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That is right, and then I heard just hearsay —
I didn't go into it. T wasn't an investigating officer. I heard there
was a backfire of an automobile, so a few days later, why I heard that
someone was shot. Who I don't know. To this day I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Yes. Now you say you heard that there had been a
shooting ?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What did they tell you about the shooting \
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Well, there wasn't much elaboration about it
at the time. Just said there was a shooting on Hammonds Lane.
Whether it had been on the road, back of the house, or in a house, I
don't know.
Mr. Rice. Did the}' say anything about the White House Tavern
or White House Inn?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Just said Hammonds Lane, to my recollection.
Mr. Rice. Xow did you get any information about who investigated
the shooting?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. These two officers.
Mr. Rice. Officers Wade and Flannery?
Mr. Rosln winkle. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Did you talk to them about it?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Oh, no.
Mr. Rice. Do you remember who you talked to about it \
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Xo. I say in a general discussion. You see,
at the time we only had a handful of police, and they would come in
at different intervals when we changed shifts, and then there would
be discussion among them of the shooting. I never interrogated them.
They were my superior officers. I didn't question them about what
was going on on the Lane.
Mr. Rice. You came on at 9 in the morning?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That is right.
Mr. Rice. So you heard about it during the day of May 6 ?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Yes; that is right.
Mr. Rice. And was Chief Souers there then ?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Yes; he is there every Sunday.
Mr. Rice. He is there every Sunday ?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That is right.
148 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rick. And do you have any recollection of a discussion about
this shooting taking place in his presence?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. No, sir; I don't think I did. As a matter of
fact, I will have to be truthful; I didn't even see a report on it. That
is the reason 1 didn't talk to anybody about it. If I seen a report, I
will talk about the case.
Mr. Kick. Well, now, the nature of the case under the policy or
regulations of the department would call for a report to be made,
would it not?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And did you have any knowledge about whether the
report was actually made?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. No, sir; I don't recall the report. Probably I
didn't see it, but, as I told you, when I filed a report, which I always did
if I pick them out of the basket on the side, I read them over and
wrrite "Report."
Mr. Rice. You would write "Report"?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. To signify there was a report made on the case<
Mr. Rice. Let us go through the procedure a little bit. The officers
go out in answer to the complaint at 2: 10 a. m., and they investigate
it. They come back and make a report immediately ?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Just as I told you, we only had a handful of
men. Probably they worked their full shift and come and make that
report.
I know lots of times I would have to call them just on an accident
case, ask them where the report is because an adjuster was there want-
ing it. They would say, "I will make it out tonight when I come in."
Mr. Rice. Would they relate the number back to the case?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Oh, yes; you go by this. This would tell you
on this side, would correspond with the number.
Mr. Rice. Is there any reason for having numbers without reports?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Any reason to have these numbers?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Oh. these sheets are made up with numbers.
You see, they are in red. When I sat there I would put numbers, oh,
probably have them up to a thousand and just wait until they put
them on the board again.
Mr. Rice. Is it possible then you would have a number with no
report backing it up?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. No; it would be a report or no report, and, in
other words, if there is no report, then you wouldn't have to look for
anything, not even for that number.
Mr. Rice. Then the number definitely relates to a report that is
written and filed I
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Well, now, without pinning you down to what you know
to be definite evidence, something you have actually heard yourself
or something yon participated in, what was the general story about
this cover-up of this report ? What did you later hear as "scuttlebutt"
or rumor about it?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Well, in other words it is just a topic or a gen-
eral conversation that was a backfire of an automobile.
Mr. Rick. Wait a minute. When you say that they had put in a
report that it was a backfire or that it actually was a backfire
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 149
Mr. Rosenwinkle. I don't know if it was or not. I never saw a
report on it. I say just a general topic that it was a backfire of an
automobile. That is all I heard.
Mr. Rice. Well, now. what is your own personal impression? Do
you have the impression that it was a backfire or somebody actually
got shot '.
Mr. Rosexwixkle. My own opinion?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Rosen winkle. My own opinion, I would say it wasn't. That
is my opinion, one man's opinion.
Mr. Rice. Your own opinion is that someone got shot, but a report
was made that there was a backfire?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. I don't know there was a report. I never seen
one. Not my writing on here where I filed a report, even.
Mr. Rice. As a matter of fact, you heard someone was in a hospital
as a result of that shooting, did you not?
Mr. Rosexwixkle. Later on I did; yes. That is what made me
believe and think that there was a shooting.
Mr. Rice. And you also heard somewhere along the line that it
involved something that had happened at the White House Tavern,
which was a gambling place ?
Mr. Rosknwixkle. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Notoriously open gambling place there?
Mr. Rosexwixkle. Yes.
Mi-. Rice. You were a desk sergeant. I take it you did not go out
on a job investigating violations?
Mr. Rosi.NwiNKLE. If I may say, I think during my course of time
I investigated two cases.
Mr. Rue. How did it come to your attention that the White House
was a gambling place '.
Mr. Rosexwixkle. How did it come to my attention?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Rosexwixkle. Well, I have heard rumors about it and just as
I say, 1 worked from 9 to 9. I would have a Tuesday off and I was
glad when I had my Tuesday off to take my wife and children to town
to take in a show. When a man sits at a desk from 9 in the morning
until 9 at night, it is pretty rough on him.
Mr. Rice. Somewhere along the line you became aware that there
was a gambling thing going on ?
Mr. Rosexwixkle. I heard talk of gambling throughout the county,
throughout all the counties as a matter of fact. Sure I heard about
it at Jimmy La Fontaine's place right here in Hyattsville. That is
nothing to cover up.
Mr. Rice. So that you had heard about the White House?
Mr. Rosexwixkle. Oh, sure.
Mr. Rice. Had it always been there ?
Mr. Rosexwixkle. The White House was there before I was even
on the police department. It is still there today.
Mr. Rice. Is it still a gambling place \
Mr. Rosknwixkle. I wouldn't know. I have been away 4 years.
Mr. Rick. Whose place was it supposed to be ?
Mr. Rosexwixkle. I don't even know that. The people that used
to have it were named Warren. They had a tavern and night club
there.
150 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Kick. White House. Is that the only name you heard connected
with ii \
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Yes.
Mr. Rice. How about Frankel?
Mr. Rosexwixkle. I see a box out there with the name Frankel
on it.
Mr.. Rice. Does the name Rosen connect?
Mr. Rosexwixkle. Never heard of him.
Mr. Rice. How do you account for a place like that running in the
county in violation of law ?
Mr. Rosexwixkle. How do I account for it?
Mr. Rice. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rosexwixkle. I don't know. I was just a desk sergeant. I was
just a little pea in the pod. I don't know.
Senator Kefauver. Did all of the officers there know that it was
operating?
Mr. Rosexwinkle. I wouldn't know. I can't answer for them.
They were out patrolling the roads. I wasn't. I was confiined to a
desk.
Senator Kefauver. You were behind a desk ?
Mr. Rosexwixkle. Oh, yes. I sat behind the desk.
Senator Kefauver. It was generally known that it was a gambling
place?
Mr. Rosexwixkle. Oh, yes.
Senator Kefauver. Why didn't they close it down ?
Mr. Rosexwixkle. I don't know.
Senator Kefauver. You don't know ?
Mr. Rosexwixkle. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Senator O'Conor ?
Senator O'Coxor. No questions.
Senator Kefauver. Senator Hunt ?
Senator Hunt. No questions.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Jackson ? Mr. Smith ?
Mr. Smith. Did you tell me anything about an arrest you had
made on numbers ?
Mr. Rosexwixkle. Oh, yes; I just got done elaborating on two
cases.
Mr. Smith. Could you give us a little synopsis on that?
Mr. Rosenwixkle. Oh yes, I would be glad to do that. Officer
Gavlin who is a foot patrolman — we have two foot patrolmen in Glen
Burnie. Probably you know it, and the rest of them ride around in
patrol cars. Officer Gavlin observed these numbers writers coming
from Baltimore and transfering in cars. He in turn called me at the
desk and told me about it. I in turn told him to get all information
pertinent to the action that was happening at Glen Burnie when it
would come down, the time and so forth and so on, and then I re-
ferred it to my chief of police.
Mr. Smith. Chief Souers?
Mr. Rosenwtnkle. That is right exactly, and he told me, he said,
"You go down and cheek it also," a double check, which I did, and
I observed the conditions just as the officer related it. That was within
a week and a Saturday we apprehended the number writers.
Mr. Rice. Who were they ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 151
Mr. Rosen winkle. One of them was named Sam Goldberg. He
was the main one. There was three other fellows, two other fellows.
Mr. Rice. Is he related to George Goldberg?
Mr. Rosen winkle. I understand he is his brother. We confiscated
lottery tickets, their automobile and $7,400 in cash. I did participate
in that.
Mr. Smith. Could you give us the date on that ?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Offhand I couldn't. That wasn't even put on
this board, to tell you the truth. That was from one officer to another.
In other words, this here is complaints from the public, one officer
to another that was. I couldn't give you the date on that, no. I
mean the reports of the arrests, at the police station would show the
date on that when they were apprehended. I know it was on a Satur-
day afternoon.
Mr. Smith. In what year ?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That was in 1947.
Mr. Smith. Do you know whether they are still in business or not?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. No, I wouldn't know now.
Mr. Rice. Going back to this shooting incident, is there anything
else you would like to tell us that you think would be interesting.
Mr. Rosenwinkle. That is all I do know about it. Just as I say,
practically what I have told you is hearsay, I have no facts about it.
I didn't investigate the case and I didn't go into it, and at the time
I told Mr. Smith about it, why that information I had was asked of
me in 1949 by a county grand-jury man and I told about it, I would
get the information and that date, and from then on nothing happened.
Mr. Rice. As far as you know you never saw the report which is
supposed to have told about this backfiring?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. I have no further questions.
Senator Kefauver. What do you do now, sir ?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. I am a bricklayer. That was my trade before
I went into the police department.
Senator Kefauver. Where?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. I am working over at the National Plastic.
Senator Kefauver. Do you still live in this county?
Mr. Rosenwinkle. Yes, sir ; have been for 19 years.
Senator Kefauver. All right, that is all, sir. Thank you.
Sergeant Downs?
Mr. Downs. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give
this committee will be the whole truth so help you God?
Mr. Downs. I do, sir.
Senator Kefauver. All right, Mr. Rice.
TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR T. DOWNS, SERGEANT, ANNE ARUNDEL
COUNTY (MD.) POLICE
Mr. Rice. Your full name?
Mr. Downs. Arthur T. Downs.
Mr. Rice. Where do you live, Mr. Downs?
Mr. Downs. Ferndale.
Mr. Rice. I beg your pardon?
Mr. Downs. Ferndale.
152 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. Whereabouts in Ferndale?
Mr. Downs. 203 Wicklow Avenue.
Mr. Kick. And where are yon employed, Mr. Downs?
Mr. Downs. Anne Arundel County police, Ferndale.
Mr. Rice. At Ferndale. Anne Arundel County. What is your
capacity — sergeant?
Mr. Downs. Sergeant, yes sir.
Mr. Rice. And what are your duties?
Air. Downs. What are my duties ?
Mr. Rice. Yes. Are you a desk sergeant or a patrolman?
Mr. Downs. No, sir. I have a bunch of men that work on the out-
side— radio car.
Mr. Rice. In a radio car?
Mr. Downs. Yes.
Mr. Rice. And you supervise the activities of those men?
Mr. Downs. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Going back to 1945 and referring to exhibit A. the police
blotter, do you see some of your handwriting on there?
Mr. Downs. This is my handwriting here.
Mr. Rice. At that time you were then taking some complaints?
Mr. Downs. Four or five.
Mr. Rice. As a desk man. Now referring to the complaint of Mrs.
Frankel on the 6th of May, do you recall receiving that complaint?
Mr. Downs. This is my handwriting here.
Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. Just tell us about what that was, what you
remember about it. I realize it was back in 1945.
Mr. Downs. I don't know as I remember too much about it. That
was back in 1945. That's been a long time ago. I take a lot of calls
in a period of that time.
Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. Well, Mrs. Frankel, do you remember who
she was ?
Mr. Downs. No, sir; I wouldn't know Mrs. Frankel. If that is
the complainant here. In other words, when they call in if you are
working on the desk, you always get the complainant's name, and in
fact you get all the information you can providing that they don't
hang up before you get it all.
Mr. Rice. "Would it help you to refresh your recollection any if it
were suggested that possibly Mrs. Frankel had called from the White
House Inn or White House Farm there on Hammonds Lane?
Mr. Downs. I know where that is ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Does that help you to remember any?
Mr. Downs. I tell you it is pretty hard to remember back that far
back. Of course some of the men were over to the house and talked
to me and they said it was in reference to a shooting, but here it is
marked investigation on this complaint board here.
Mr. Rice. Tell us what you know about that time that you did
get a complaint on the shooting over there from Mrs. Frankel. Do
not worry about the date. Just tell us the story.
Mr. Downs. It is pretty hard to remember back that far just actually
what did happen.
Mr. Rick. Let's see what you do remember. You know what the
White House Inn is. don't you?
M r. Downs. Yes, sir ; I know where that is.
Mr. Rice. It is a gambling place, isn't it?
ORGANIZED CRIME EN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 153
Mr. Downs. I don't know that ; no, sir.
Mr. Rice. You never heard that ?
Mr. Downs. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. In your opinion what is it ?
Mr. Downs. As far as I am concerned, it is a private home.
Mr. Rice. Private home?
Mr. Downs. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And Mrs. Frankel called you up one night at 2 o'clock
in the morning. What did she tell you?
Mr. Downs. Well just as I say, that is pretty hard to remember. I
tried to check on this thing yesterday, and of course we didn't have
the complaint sheet. In other words, we can't check any records
over the station unless we have this to go by. This is the original
complaint brought down here.
Mr. Rice. You mark the original complaint on there. Then what
do you do ? Do you write up something else ?
Mr. Downs. We dispatch a radio car to the scene.
Mr. Rice. What do you write up when you get the complaint?
Mr. Downs. It is working the desk, this is that we write up. We
write up the person that called and the complaint and who you send
on it, the date, time, and then there is a place there for report.
Mr. Rice. Going to that report part, is there a written report made ?
Mr. Downs. Here it says a report. Now, I don't know whether it
is a written report or not.
Mr. Rice. How do you tell ?
Mr. Downs. I could check it at the station if I had this complaint
to go by and see if it is a report in the files.
Mr. Rice. Didn't you say you did that yesterday ?
Mr. Downs. No, sir; I didn't have this complaint sheet. You see,
you have to have this sheet to get the name and all to follow through,
and it has a number.
Mr. Rice. If you get the name and the number, what do you do?
Mr. Downs. Then you go into the file. The complaints are listed
under like '"Larceny," "Breaking and entering," and so forth like
that ; and then of course you would refer to that book and look for
this number.
Mr. Rice. What book would you look in on that one ?
Mr. Downs. This is marked "Investigation." That would come
under book No. 1, which is "Miscellaneous."
Mr. Rice. You look in the miscellaneous book and what page would
you look on there I Do you look under that number ?
Mr. Downs. Yes, sir; we would look under the complainant's name
and this number would be marked on the report.
Mr. Rice. What number is that ?
Mr. Downs. No. 584.
Mr. Rice. No. 584. And is that a bound book ?
Mr Downs. What do you mean?
Mr. Rice. Are the complaints bound into the book? Are they
written on pages that turn over?
Mr. Downs. No, sir ; they are written on regular report pages and
then filed in this book to be filed away. Of course we have a brown
book, or reference book that we could take this name and number and
find the report that has been filed away.
154 ORGANIZED CRIME EN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr Rice. I wonder if you would make a litle notation of that
name and number and see if you can locate that report and get in
touch with us. , . . - , ,
Senator Kefauver. Have you talked to one of the members ot the
staff here, Mr. Jackson and Mr. Smith?
Mr. Downs. Yes, sir ; I talked to both of them.
Senator Kefauver. Go ahead, Mr. Rice. m
Mr Rick. Don't you recall telling them about you remembering
that Mrs. Frankel called up and said there had been a shooting?
Mr. Downs. Those two men came to my house and got me out of
bed in the morning, about in the neighborhood of 11 o'clock, and they
were referring to this case, and I told them that I couldn't answer any
questions on it until I checked the records because it had been you
know so long ago that I just couldn't remember, and they told me that
they had taken it officially from the daily records of complaint, that
it was marked on the board as a shooting.
Well, here it doesn't sav that it is marked as a shooting. It says
investigation. Well now, I told them if my name was signed to it
and I had taken the complaint, that naturally I sent the radio car
on it, because that is my duty working behind the desk when I receive
a complaint to send police to answer it.
Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. Now didn't you tell them something about
remembering the call from Mrs. Frankel, what she told you?
Mr. Downs. I told them that as far as remembering exactly what
the call was about, I couldn't do it because I take a lot of complaints
at the station, but if it was a reference to a shooting, well naturally
I sent the radio car there. I sent Lieutenant Made down and Sergeant
Flannery.
Mr. Rice. What was it about the car that you told them about going
to the hospital ? .
Mr. Downs. As far as I know the car did not go to the hospital.
Mr. Rice. What was that ? What did the car do ?
Mr. Downs. I sent the car to Frankel's to answer the complaint and
what the car did after that I don't know. I wouldn't be in a position
to know anyway, working behind the desk.
Of course if they had called for assistance or if they were going
to the hospital and if they had got to the hospital, they would have
called and said they were at the hospital.
Mr. Rice. Do you remember them doing that?
Mr. Downs. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you remember telling anybody you heard them doing
that?
Mr. Downs. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that?
Mr. Downs. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you remember the report that was turned in on that?
What was the result of the call there ? You took the call. You must
have been interested in what happened there at 2 o'clock in the
morning. What did they tell you happened?
Mr. Downs. They didn't tell me anything that had happened.
What 1 mean, t hey were dispatched on to the scene and it is up to the
men in the radio car to carry from there. If they need assistance,
they radio back and whatever assistance they need is sent from the
desk'.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 155
Mr. Rick. You do not follow through in any way to find out what
happened \
Mr. Downs. No, sir. I didn't follow it through. In other words,
both of my superior officers were on a case and I never followed
through at all.
Mr. Rice. Those were both your superior officers ?
Mr. Downs. At that time, Sergeant Flannery and Lieutenant Wade.
Mr. Rice. I see. Now then, who is the custodian of the records of
the county police now ? Who keeps the records i
Mr. Downs. What do you mean, who files them ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Downs. We have a secretary there who files them, Mrs. Squires.
Mr. Rice. Mrs. Squires?
Mr. Downs. Yes.
Mr. Rice. She takes charge of those now, is that right ?
Mr. Downs. She takes charge of the filing; yes, sir. They are
turned in to the chief, the same as they always were, and she does the
filing.
Mr. Rice. When a report is made on any type of case, a written
report, who reviews the report ?
Mr. Downs. It goes to the chief. If it is made by the patrolman,
then it goes through the sergeant in charge and from there it goes to
the chief of police.
Mr. Rice. In any event, it always gets to the chief and at that time
it was Chief Souers ?
Mr. Downs. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What does he do with the reports? Does he put his
initials on them ?
Mr. Downs. They never used to, but here of late they had a stamp
that they stamped, the chief's approval, and then it would come back
and it would be filed away by Rosenwinkle. He was desk sergeant
and he filed them away.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever discuss this with Souers ?
Mr. Downs. No, sir ; I never did.
Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that ?
Mr. Downs. Positive.
Mr. Rice. You never discussed any part of this case with Souers?
Mr. Downs. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Absolutely certain of that?
Mr. Downs. Positive. As far as I can remember I haven't discussed
it with anyone.
Mr. Rice. How about did you talk it over with Wade or Flannery ?
Mr. Downs. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Never discussed this case from the time you gave them
the complaint that there was something happened out at the White
House to this day ?
Mr. Downs. No, sir ; I never have discussed it.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever hear the story that there was a report put
in that there was a backfire out there ?
Mr. Downs. Personally, I don't even remember ever reading the
report on the case.
Mr. Rice. Well, of hearing about it ?
Mr. Downs. No, sir ; I never heard anything about the case.
156 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. It is a complete mystery to you what happened from the
time vou received the call ,, •,.•■
Mr Down-. That is right. You see, when they go on a call like
that if it is a shooting, well, if somebody's got shot, naturally they
areVoing to call back for help, and 1 never heard anything from the
car weSl just completel v ignored the call, that is from my standpoint
Senator Kkkaivkf, Mr. Jackson, do you want to ask any questions?
You talked with him. . , , Q -fV.
Mr. Jackson. Sergeant Downs, you recall talking to Mr. Smith
and I over at your house that day ?
Mr. Downs. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jackson. How long ago was that 4
Mr. Downs. It was last week. ,
Mr. J \ckson. It was one day last week, isn t that correct*
Mr. Downs. That is right.
Mr Tackson When you talked with us, do you recall saying that
J^i^W^Sicto with this call from the White House
Inn that the radio car had called back into the station on the radio and
told vou that they were going into Baltimore, and you were then
asked if the radio' log would reflect that and you said no, that you
wouldn't enter a thing like that on the radio log, that you just simply
recall it. Do you recall that ?
Mr. Downs. No, sir. If I send anything to the radio car, it would
go to the radio log. You know that.
Mr .1 \okson. The question is do you remember telling
Mr. Downs. No, sir ; I did not teU him that.
Mr. Kkk. Yon did not tell this man here, Mr. Jackson, that*
Mr. Downs. Xo, sir. .
Mr. Hick. Did you have a discussion at all about that <
Mr. Downs. Discussion?
Mr Rice. Yes, with Mr. Jackson.
Mr Downs. They talked about the case over at my house; yes, sir.
Mr! Kick. About' this radio car proposition, what was the conver-
sation as vou recall it ( .„,.,, n i u i £ i i„
Mr Downs First they asked me it I had called anybody for help,
particularlv Maryland State police, and I told them no, that I hadn t,
and if I had 1 wouldn't have got much response anyway because we
never do. and he wanted to know if I dispatched an ambulance and
I told him not as 1 could remember 1 didn't and he wanted to know
if a car went to the hospital, and as far as I knew the car didn t go
to the hospital, as far as 1 could remember.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever hear the name Sidney Rosen?
Mr. Downs. Sidney Rosen?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Downs. Can't say I have ; no sir.
Mi-. Rick. Never heard of that name?
Mr. Downs. No, sir. , , ., lin -,
Mr. Rice. Never heard of Sidney Rosen being shot at the White
House Inn \
Mi-. 1 >owns. No. sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you know Hymie Frankel?
Mr. Downs. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Ever hear the name Hymie Frankel?
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 157
Mr. Downs. I have heard the name: yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Who is he?
Mr. Downs. I don't know.
Mr. Kick. What did you hear about him i
Mr.DowNS. He is supposed to live at that W lute House.
Mr. Rick. Who else lives at the White House?
Mr. Downs. I don't know, sir. .
Mr. Rice. A.S Ear as you know it was just who, Hymie trankel
and his wife?
Mr. Downs. As far as I know : yes, sir.
Mr. Rick. Who did she say got shot ?
Mr. Downs. I can't remember her saying anybody eot shot.
Mr. Rick. What did she say as far as yon can remember?
Mr. Downs. Just as I say, it is pretty hard to remember back that
far. but it <eems to me that when the State police were talking to
me about it. that it was a call with reference to a shooting, but of
course it is only marked investigation because nobody was actually
shot as far as I know.
Of course when von receive a call like that yon always dispatch a,
car regardless of whether it turns out to be anything or whether it
don't, because you can't afford to take a chance on that.
Mr. Rick. Now if you did get a call that there was a shooting,
would von put "investigation" or would you put "shooting''?
Mr. Downs. If anybody was actually shot. If they said somebody
was shot, ves : it would be listed as a person shot.
Mr. Rice. How would you ever know that over the telephone?
Mr. Downs. By the complainant who calls in. If they call in and
say somebody's been shot, well, we mark it down as somebody being
shot and send a car to the point of destination.
Mr. Rice. Then the fact that you do have some recollection that
there was something about a shooting, how do you account for it
being marked "investigation" \
Mr. Downs. If they didn't say that somebody was shot, according
to what the State police told me they come over to the house and got
me out of bed and they said that the call came in and was listed on this
board as a shooting. Now they brought the shooting to me. I didn't
know anything about it, and frankly I told them I could not answer a
question' until I checked at the station, because I didn't know.
Mr. Rice. All right, sir: we would certainly appreciate it if you
would check at the station. I take it you haven't done so since they
talked to you?
Mr. Downs. No, sir. I went to check yesterday at this board winch
shows the complainant and the number and all to follow through, see,
and vou can't check a record without this.
Mr. Rice. That was a week ago they talked to you though?
Mr. Downs. That was a week ago : yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Is that the first time you have been in the station?
Mr. Downs. No. sir; I have been 'working 1- days. We have a strike
on there and we are very busy. In fact, we don't even have enough
men to go around.
Mr. Rice. What caused you to go look for it yesterday?
Mr. Downs. Because I got a subpena to come over here and I wanted
to see the board to make sure of what was on this hoard because they
85277— 51— pt. 17 11
158 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
had told me what was on the board, but I actually haven't looked at
it until just now.
Mr. Rice. All right, sir. I would certainly appreciate it if you
would pull that report that you have a note on.
Mr. Downs. If there is a report there, I certainly will find it.
Mr. Rice. And give us a telephone call when you find that.
Mr. Downs. Who do I call ?
Mr. Rice. Call Mr. Jackson.
Senator Kefauver. Senator Hunt, any questions ?
Senator Hunt. No, I have no questions.
Senator Kefauver. Sergeant, this White House place there, do you
know that to be a gambling joint?
Mr. Downs. No, sir ; I don't.
Senator Kefauver. Didn't you see the McFarland report, the report
of the McFarland Senate committee about them getting wire service
there ?
Mr. Downs. I saw that. After that came out; yes, sir. I saw it
right in the newspapers.
Senator Kefauver. That has been some time ago, hasn't it, about
a year ago ?
Mr. Downs. About a year ago ; yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. And did you do anything about it then ? Close
it up?
Mr. Downs. I never ; no, sir. I never even knew it was a gambling
place there.
Senator Kefauver. What did you think that wire service was for?
Mr. Downs. I didn't know they had wire service until I read it in
the paper.
Senator Kefauver. When you read it in the paper, did you go out
then and close the place up ?
Mr. Downs. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Why didn't you?
Mr. Downs. There wasn't anything to close up as I know of.
Senator Kefauver. That was April 1D5U. Apparently they had
service up until January 1951. They may still have it, I don't know.
Didn't you think you ought to go out and see if it was a gambling
place ?
Mr. Downs. As far as I could tell, there as no gambling place as far
as I could see.
Senator Kefauver. What did you do about seeing ?
Mr. Downs. I used that route by there a good deal when we go to
school detail and all that.
Senator Kefauver. Did you go in there to see what was going on ?
Mr. Downs. No, sir; it is a private home. I didn't go into the
house.
Senator Kefauver. You thought it was a private home?
Mr. Downs. That is what it appears to be; yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. It has had a reputation of being a notorious
gambling place for years, hasn't it?
.\I i . Downs. Not to my knowledge, it hasn't; no, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Do you know the people that live there in the
liouse?
Mr. Downs. No, sir; I don't know the people. I wouldn't know
them if they were brought in here tonight.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 159
Senator Kefatjver. Do you know their names?
Mr. Downs. Frankel was living in there as tar I know.
Senator Kefatjver. And you never knew m your lite that that was
a gambling place ?
Mr. Downs. No, sir. . ,.
Senator Kefatjver. What did you think when you read in the paper
about them having wire service ? ., M
Mr Downs. It was a surprise to me as far as I am concerned because
I didn't know it was a gambling place there. In fact I didn t know ot
any that is in the county.
Senator Kefatjver. Didn't you think you should have made some
inquiry about it after you heard about the wire service?
Mr. Downs. It is hard to tell anything about it. Of course just as
I say, I have been by it a number of times. As far as I could see I
can't 'see where it was wire service in there. Of course if it was
there-
Senator Kefatjver. Didn't you see a lot of cars parked around ?
Mr. Downs. No, sir.
Senator Kefatjver. All right, any other questions?
Mr. Kice. No further questions. , .
Senator Hunt. I want to ask one. Is it your duty if you suspicion
some information that you see either in the press or from any other
source of things that are going on, do you consider it your duty to
investigate and find out ?
Mr. Downs. Yes, sir ; it is up to the police and the superior officers,
sure. That is what we are for.
Senator Hunt. You do not consider it your personal obligation and
duty as a member of the police force to go in and investigate?
Mr. Downs. Yes, sir.
Senator Hunt. Why didn't you do it in this case ?
Mr. Downs. Well, it is not a known policy for police to go into
people's private homes just with no reason to go in there with. In
other words, if you have a warrant or something for somebody, you go
in. Of course if you check from the outside and you can find some-
thing that is going on that is illegal
Senator Hunt. When you have sworn testimony before a Senate
committee that certain wire services are used only for the purpose
of gambling going on in any kind of a structure, whether is is a busi-
ness house or private residence or whatever it is, what more could a
person want to make an investigation than that ?
Mr. Downs. I have never been in it personally. I have of course
been by it a number of times.
Senator Hunt. Is it on your beat, under your jurisdiction ?
Mr. Dqwns. Yes.
Senator Hunt. What are you going to do about it now ?
Mr. Downs. If it is running, it is going to get closed up.
Senator Kefauver. How are you going to find out if it is running or
not?
Mr. Downs. If all 3^011 say it is running, I will go up there and look.
As far as that is concerned, I am in charge of the territory there while
I am working now. Of course I wasn't at the time. I wasn't in '45.
Senator Kefauver. It is pretty late, but it might be worth while
going by. I do not know if it is running or not. It did run a long-
time. Anything else. Senator Hunt?
160 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Hunt. No, that is all.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Rice?
Mr. Rice. That is all. You will get in touch with us, Sergeant.
Senator Kefauver. Thank you, Sergeant.
Mr. Downs. You arc welcome, sir.
Mr. Rice. Get in touch with us either way, if you do find out or if
you do not find out. 1 certainly hope you do find it.
Mr. Downs. 1 1 it is there I will find it because all the things are in
thai record.
Senator Kefauver. Sergeant, do you swear the testimony you give
the committee will be the whole truth, so help you, God?
Mr. Flannery. Yes. sir.
Senator Kefauver. All right, let us get on.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT L. FLANNERY, SERGEANT, ANNE
ARUNDEL COUNTY (MD.) POLICE
Mr. Rice. What is your full name?
Mr. Flannery. Robert L. Flannery.
Mr. Rick. How do you spell the Flannery \
Mr. Flannery. F-1-a-n-n-e-r-y.
Mr. Rick. Where do you live '.
Mr. Flannery. Sudley. That is close to Linthicum Heights. This
name is wrong here.
Mr. Rice. What is your street address ?
Mr. Flannery. I live on Lyman Avenue.
Mr. Rice. What number?
Mr. Flannery. Don't have any number. It is in the country.
Mr. Rice. Where do you work?
Mr. Flannery. Ferndale.
Mr. Rice. In Ferndale?
Mr. Flannery. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. For whom ?
Mr. Flannery. At Anne Arundel County Police.
Mr. Rice. And what is your job on the police? Is it a sergeant?
Mr. Flannery. Yes, sir, I am a sergeant now.
Mr. Rice. How long have you been with the Anne Arundel County
Police?
Mr. Flannery. Ever since it started. It is about, I would say —
well, there was police before we started the police department. About
17 years, sir.
Mr. Rice. Have you always been a sergeanl \
Mr. Flannery. No, sir. I was the deputy sheriff 4 years before
that.
Mr. Rice. What are your duties now, Mr. Flannery? Are you in
charge of the vice squad '.
Mr. Flannery. No. sir; I have a shift of uniformed police.
Mr. Rick. You supervise them?
Mr. Flannery. Yes. sir. to a certain extent.
Mr. Rice. And in what area of the county?
Mr. Flannery. Well, we take care of the third, fourth, and fifth
districts.
Mr. Rice. Going back to 1045 in May, we have a report and some
information relating to a complaint that was received from Mrs.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 161
Frankel out there at the White House Inn on May 6 about something
that had happened about 2 o'clock in the morning and you, and 1 guesb
it was Sergeant Wade or Lieutenant Wade
Mr. Flaxxery. Lieutenant Wade. ,
Mr Rice. Went out there and made a report. Tell us about that.
Mr Flaxxeky. 1 didn't make any report. I can tell you that to
start with. I brought our what-do-you-call-it over from 4a. Hooked
in there In other words, the numbers checked.
Mr Rice. Before you looked there, tell us what happened.
Mr. Flaxxery. I think we were at the station house. Anything
that I say, what I don't remember I cannot testify to.
Mr. Rice. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flaxxeky. That is back 0 years ago.
Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. . ,.
Mr Flaxxery. I think we were at the station house when the call
came in I don't know what the call was, whether it was to investigate
a shooting or what it was from what information I got from the two
sergeants. •
Mi\ Rice. Who got the call, do you remember ? _
Mr Flaxxery. Officer Downs. He was working the desk, there
was only three of us that worked the night shift. We didirt do any
cruising because we didirt have no men to cruise with, so Lieutenant
Wade and I went up there.
Mr. Rice. What did Sergeant Downs tell you that he had heard-
over the phone ?
Mr. Flaxxery. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. He told you to go somewhere?
Mr. Flaxxery. Oh, yes; White House Inn. go up to the \\ lute
House Inn.
Mr. Rice. To do what?
Mr. Flanxery. But I say I don't know what he said, investigate a
shooting or what he said. I don't remember no more.
Mr. Rice. Wliat is your impression now ?
Mr. Flaxxery. What is my impression now after what the ser-
geant told me % Well, it was a shooting.
Mr. Rice. What was the impression then ?
Mr. Flaxxery. Well, I had no dealings with the White House Inn
previous to that. The only thing I can testify to that in 1941 there
was a walkathon at Brooklyn. I don't know whether you remember
that or not.
Senator Kefauver. There was a what?
Mr. Flaxxery. A walkathon.
Mr. Rice. One of these dance marathons.
Mr. Flaxxery. That is right, and at that time a man came m
there who said his name was Herman and he was supposed to own
the White House Inn.
Mr. Rice. Herman?
Mr. Flaxxery. Yes. Now previous to that I know a man by the
name of Warren owned it because he had a tavern there.
Mr. Rice. And there was a tavern there ?
Mr. Flanxery. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Was there when Herman had it?
Mr. Flaxnery. I don't know. It was supposed to be a rooming
house.
162 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. A rooming house?
Mr. Flannery. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Any gambling?
Mr. Flannery. A rooming house or an apartment house.
Mr. Rice. Airy gambling?
Mr. Flannery. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Rice. Is Herman supposed to be a gambler?
Mr. Flannery. Sir?
Mr. Rick. Herman was a gambler, wasn't he? He was convicted
over then' in Baltimore, wasn't he?
Mr. Flannery. I don't know.
Mr. Smith. Wasn't the rumor
Mr. Flannery. No.
Mr. Smith. Didn't you say there was a rumor there was gambling
there?
Mr. Flannery. No, sir; I don't know none of them guys, sir. You
have asked me about a couple of men, but I don't know, truthfully.
Mr. Rice. Then Sergeant Downs told you something happened out
there. Did he tell you to go out there and prepare to quell a riot or
stop a holdup ? What did he tell you to look for?
Mr. Flannery. I would like to answer it, but I don't want to lie,
I want to tell you the truth, but I don't know what he told us, I
really don't.
' Mr. Rice. What do you remember doing?
Mr. Flannery. I know I went up there. I don't even remember
if I drove the car or if Lieutenant Wade drove the car. I don't re-
member that.
Mr. Rice. You went out there and what happened ?
Mr. Flannery. Yes, sir; we went out there and as best as I can
remember there was a woman and a man on the porch.
Mr. Rice. Who were they?
Mr. Flannery. Sir?
Mr. Rice. Who were they?
Mr. Flannery. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know who
they were, but it seemed to me there was a man and a woman on the
porch. I told the sergeants here the other day when I was talking
to them I don't even know whether I got out of the car ; if Lieutenant
Wade says I got out of the car, why I got out. If I went to the porch
I went to the porch. I don't know what I done, but the assumption
was that there was a car that backfired and that is all.
Mr. Rice. We are not interested in assumptions.
Mr. Flannery. I mean that is what was told. Now whether I
heard them say it or whether Lieutenant Wade told me I don't know.
Senator I ["ON t. Will you have him explain what he means by back-
fire \
Mr. Rice. It is a little difficult to understand, Sergeant. You
went out looking for some trouble, I take it.
Mr. Flannery. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Did you draw your gun and get ready to
Mr. Flannery. Oh, no.
Mr. Rick. What did you do when you got there, surround the place?
Mr. Flannery. We would go right to the house where the trouble
comes from. We have to go there to get the information on what
took place.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 163
Mr. Rice. And two people are standing on the porch?
Mr. Flannert. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What were they doing?
Mr Flannert. I know it was a man and a woman. Whether there
was any more people there or not— I mean it wasn't any crowd ot
people but it could have been a couple of more people, I don t know,
but it seemed to me there was a man and woman on the front porch.
Mr. Rice. Standing up or lying down?
Mr. Flannery. Standing up.
Mr. Rice. Both of them I
Mr. Flannery. Yes, sir; and they told us that a car had back-
fired on the road, which was about 50 yards from there.
Mr. Rice. They said a car had backfired ?
Mr. Flannert. Yes, sir.
Mr Rice. And what did that have to do with the case (
Mr. Flannery. That is all there was to it as far as we was con-
Mr. Rice. You mean you want us to take it that the car had back-
fired and scared them and they called you up ?
Mr. Flanneky. That is what she said. She said she thought it
was somebody shooting.
Mr. Rice. But no one was shot ?
Mr. Flannery. Not to my knowledge. Only what the sergeant
told me.
Mr. Rice. Did you take their names?
Mr. Flannery. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. Rice. What did you do next ?
Mr. Flannery. We went on back to headquarters.
Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that?
Mr. Flannery. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Are you sure you did not go to the hospital ?
Mr. Flannery. No, sir ; positively as true as I sit in this chair. I
know that. I told these men the other day that if Lieutenant Wade
said I went up on the porch, I went up on the porch, but as far as go-
in <r in the place, I know positively I was not in the place, but if he says
I came to the edge of the porch or sat in the car or whatever he said, I
would have to agree with that because I really don't know.
Mr. Rice. Suppose Sergeant Downs remembers that you all called
back and told him you were going to the hospital on the radio. You
had a radio car, didn't you?
Mr. Flannery. Well, Sergeant Downs is wrong ; I am sorry.
Mr. Rice. Why do you say that?
Mr. Flannery. All these reports are in here. In other words, if we
get a call from the hospital— I got nothing to hold back for. I don't
have to protect nobody. I am just as clean as a pm and I want all you
men to know that. These sergeants here have both been m my house
and they have seen what conditions are there.
Mr. Rice. What do the reports say?
Mr. Flannery. I just thought maybe questioning would come up
whether a report was pulled out of there.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Flannery. But the numbers run in rotation so there can t be no
report pulled out of there. I didn't know if there was a report, I told
you that.
164 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. Do you have the report there?
Mr. Flannert. No, sir; no report there. There is no report there.
I know I didn't make any, see.
Mr. Rice. Well, now on this exhibit here it is indicated that a re-
port was made on a No. 584. Do you have that report?
Mr. Flannert. Xo, sir.
Mr. Rice. What do you have?
Mr. Flannert. We have the report on that day, but nothing from
that number.
Mr. Rice. What report do you have on that day?
Mr. Flannert. None at all. as fa r as I am concerned.
Mr. Rick. What do you have here?
Mr. Flannert. I just want to show you this part.
Mr. Rick. What do these numbers relate to here, these numbers
down the side?
Mr. Flannert. They relate to the book.
Mr. Rice. They relate to the book?
Mr. Flannert. There is a book that goes with this. You look in
the book for a name and you get that number.
Mr. Rice. What book would this be in, this Frankel report?
Mr. Flannert. If there was a report made on it. it should be in this.
Mr. Rice. What book do you call that?
Mr. Flannert. I think it is 3.
Mr. Rice. Book No. 3 \
Mr. Flan nkuy. Three; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Now when you get hook 3. what do you look at?
Mr. Flannert. You look for the complainant.
Mr. Rice. You look for the complainant. What does this number
refer to ?
Mr. Flannert. That just keeps going for over a whole period of
a year. In other words, that is just a call number.
Mr. Rice. The call number isn't put on here anywhere '.
Mr. Flannert. Xo ; we do it now. That call number is put up here.
In other words, it is a different system altogether. It is a little better.
We have a little ticket on each call now.
Mr. Rick. Now then, you look in the book for the report on that
date under the complainant's name?
Mr. Flannert. That is right; yes, sir.
Mi. Rice. Now have you looked for a complaint by Mrs. Frankel?
Mr. Flannert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rkk. And what was the result of your looking?
Mr. Flannert. There is no report.
Mr. Rice. How do you account for that?
Mr. Fl w.ni i:v. I don't know, sir. I know I never made none out.
Mr. Rice. Whose duty \\;is it to make the report?
Mr. Flannert. Well, I don't know. I guess it would be mine.
Mr. Rice. You say you know you never made none out?
Mr. Flannert. I know I never made none out; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Why do you know that ?
Mr. Flannert. Because I didn't. In other words, it was a backfire
and it didn't seem like to me it needed a report made on that. You
know the answer now. I didn't know the answer then. If I had
known the answer then, by God, it would have been a different story.
I got nothing to fea r or protect no one.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 165
Mr. Rice. Aren't you supposed to make a report on all cases you
invest [gate '.
Mr. Flannery. No, sir; we are not. not if it is not worth while, we
don't have to make a report.
Mr. Rice. How about this report here, 583, an auto accident, the
same two officers, the same day. ju.-t a little bit before. Did you make
a report on thai \
Mr. Flannery. Yes: I did.
Mr. Rice. Lot us see if you can find that.
Mr. Flannery. It is not in this book. In other words, an automo-
bile accident would come under book 4. Miscellaneous would be
book 2. In other words, it is all liled in different books. Do you
understand this, Sergeant, how it is supposed to be \
Mr. Rice. So it would be in another book.
Mr. Flannery. Yes, sir. In other words, a missing person would
come under
Mr. Rice. Any of the things here that would appear in this book?
Senator Kefattver. Well, let us get on.
Mr. Rice. Well, now here is one thing I would like to know. Ser-
geant. I see here that on some of these it is indicated "no report."
What does that mean?
Mr. Flax*nery. There is no report. I don't even know who wrote
that in there.
Mr. Rice. Here is one that says "report."
Mr. Flannery. I don't know who wrote that in there. It could
be a report.
Mr. Rice. Sergeant Downs wrote that.
Mr. Flaxxt.ry. He said he did ? I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Why in some cases do you put in "no report" and in some
cases you put "report." but you say you don't have a report?
Mr. Flax'xery. When it is marked "report" it is supposed to be
a report.
Mr. Rice. So where it is marked "report" it is supposed to be one ?
Mr. Flaxnery. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Wouldn't it have been very simple in this case to just
write "no report" ?
Mr. Flannery. Yes, sir; it would have been.
Mr. Rice. Why didn't you do that?
Mr. Flannery. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. You just cannot account for that?
Mr. Flannery. No, sir: there is no reason at all for it to be marked
"no report" if it was a report.
Senator Keeauver. Mr. Flannery. information that we have is that
this White House Inn has been operating out there as a notorious
gambling place for many, many years. Did you know that \
Mr. Flannery. I don't believe that.
Senator Feeauyer. You do not believe it ?
Mr. Flannery. No, sir.
Senator Kkeauver. How long did it operate as a gambling place?
Mr. Flannery, I think it operated off and on. As I explained
before, we only had one or two cars. You understand what I mean.
Senator Keeauver. But 3^011 knew it was operating off and on as a
gambling place. When was it operating as a gambling place?
Mr. Flaxxery. I don't know.
166 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Kefauyer. Is it operating now as a gambling place?
Mr. Flannert. Not to my knowledge.
Senator Kefauver. Have you been out to sec I
Mr. Flannert. No. I was placed there when 1 worked day. Well,
last week
Senator Kefauver. Did you go in to see whether it was operating?
Mi. Flannery. Me?
Senator Kefauver. Yes.
Mr. Flannert. No, sir; I have never been in the place, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Don't you go in and make any inquiry as to
whether it is being operated as a gambling place? Do you shy away
from gambling places?
Mr. Flannert. No, I don't. Let me put you straight on that.
In other words, 215 Selby Road, there was a book running there with
a cleaning establishment combined and we got that. Now I am a
uniformed man and a uniformed man can't do anything. It takes
a man in plain clothes to do that kind of work, and whatever we get
we turn over to the vice squad and let them investigate.
Of course this was a little one down in North Linthicum and we got
that, lie was a local man. He Avas hard to get but we got him.
215 Selby Road, that was a — we got them.
Senator Kefauver. You knew this Hymie Frankel, did you not?
Mr. Flannert. No, sir, I don't.
Senator Kefauver. You never knew him?
Mr. Flannery. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Did you read this report about them having
wire service at the White House Inn?
Mr. Flannery. No, sir. Well, I explained to the sergeant the other
day I might be a dumb country police. I have never had any school-
ing, but when this Commission started, when they started talking
about wires, I commenced looking for it.
Senator Kefauver. Where did you look?
Mr. Flannery. On the poles, different places, and whatever I
spotted T turned over to the vice squad to have them check.
Senator Kefauver. Did you go out and look around the White
House Inn to see whether they had wire service?
Mr. Flannery. They had a chunk of wires in there, but now
whether they wTere going to the people living in there or whether it
was going to a book, I don't know.
Senator Kefauver. Did you report that to the vice squad?
Mr. Flannery. Yes. sir.
Senator Kefauver. You did?
Mr. Flannery\ Yes. Every place I find I report to them.
Senator Kefauver. Did you report the fact that you saw a lot of
wires going in there to the vice squad?
Mr. Flannert. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. How did you report it, orally or in writing?
Mi. Flannert. Yes; I tell them.
Senator Kefauver. Who did you tell?
Mr. Flannert. Officer Wellham is a very good friend of mine. He
is on the vice squad.
Senator Kefauver. What did he do about it?
Mr. Flannery. I imagine he checked it. Now I don't know what
he done. I know when I gave him 215 Selby Road, he checked that
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 167
and reported back they were in there and went over and got them. In
other words, he went down and got a search warrant.
Senator Kefauver. Did you tell Mr. Souers about it? Officer
Souers ?
Mr. Flaxxery. He wasn't our chief then. Colonel Bratton is our
chief now.
Senator Kefauver. He was the chief when the White House was
going full blast?
Mr. Flanxery. I don't know about that.
Senator Kefauver. You knew there was gambling in there off
and on '.
Mr. Flaxxery. I don't say I knew it, but I don't know it. I have
suspicions it was there.
Senator Kefauver. You heard about it ?
Mr. Flaxxery. Here and there; yes, sir. In other words, I can
get more of what is going in another county than what I can get in my
own county.
Senator Kefauver. I do not understand that, but that is an inter-
esting statement. Why is it you cannot get what is going on in your
own county ?
Mr. Flaxxery. Anything that is violating the law don't go up and
tell the police, Senator.
Senator Kefauver. I know, but you are supposed to get out and
find out who is violating the law.
Mr. Flaxxery. Yes. we have cruisers now, but we did not have
them before. When I was a policeman in that county, I used my own
car.
Senator Kefauver. How come you went out there to see whether
they had wires in there or not ?
Mr. Flaxxery. I went all around through Brooklyn.
Senator Kefauver. You read about it in the paper \
Mr. Flannery. Yes, sir, and I watched your committee work on
the television and I went around and checked every place I could
check. In fact I sat on one and watched it, but I never saw nothing,
but I had a police car with a sign on top of it, and I guess that is the
reason.
Senator Kefauver. Did you go up and knock on the door and make
any inquiry ?
Mr. Flaxxery. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Did not do that?
Mr. Flaxxery. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Did you ever go in the place?
Mr. Flaxxery. No, sir ; never been in in my life. I don't play no
horses. I don't play no numbers.
Senator Kefauver. I was not expecting you to go in there to play.
I was expecting you to go in and close the place up.
Mr. Flaxxery. I would rather catch them than close them up.
Senator Kefauver. Rather catch them?
Mr. Flaxxery. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. You could catch them and close them up too,
couldn't you?
Mr. Flaxxery. Not without a search warrant I couldn't go in
there and do that.
168 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Kefauver. And you think that a report by a Senate com-
mittee to the effect that there was wire service in there would be a
sufficient reason for you to get a search warrant or make some in-
vestigation?
Mr. Flannery. Senator, I do not know much about a search war-
rant. They tell me a search warrant is right tough. We got a search
warrant on a numbers case and we lost it in the court.
Senator Kefauver. All right, anything else?
Mr. Rice. Yes, I have some questions. Is there a county police
organization?
Mr. Flannery. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is the name of that organization? What is it?
Mr. Flannery. I think it is called the police association.
Mr. Rice. Are you a member of that?
Mr. Flannert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Are you an officer of that?
Mr. Flannery. No, sir, I can't be an officer.
Mr. Rice. But you have attended some meetings of that?
Mr. Flannery. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. At Ferndale ?
Mr. Flannery. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And do you remember some time back talking around
the time of one of those meetings about the protection in the county,
who was taking care of the protection?
Mr. Flannery. Who was taking care of the protection?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Flannery. No.
Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that?
Mr. Flannery. Positive.
Mr. Rice. What do you know about the protection for gambling in
the county?
Mr. Flannery. I don't know anything.
Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that?
Mr. Flannery. Positive.
Mr. Rice. Are you sure you haven't talked about that?
Mr. Flannery. No, sir, I haven't
Mr. Rice. Do you know a man by the name of Taylor?
Mr. Flannery. Who?
Mr. Rice. Taylor.
Mr. Flannery. Taylor?
Mr. Rice. Taylor.
Mr. Flannery. What is his first name!
Mr. Rice. Well, you know him.
Mr. Flannery. No, sir, I am sorry.
Mr. Rice. You do not know anybody by the name of Taylor?
Mr. Flannery. I know people by the name of Taylor, but I was
just trying to find out who. Taylor with the railroad, he has been
with us for years right there in Glen Burnie. I know some Taylors
that play ball down in Severn. I know them.
Mr. Rhe. Do you remember telling any of those Taylors about who
was taking care of the protection in the county?
Mr. Flannert. No, sir. I couldn't do it. I don't know. That is
impossible.
Mr. Rice. It was not impossible.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 169
Mr. Flannert. I mean for me to tell him, because I do not know.
Mr. Rice. How about this place out here at Barbara Farms at
Laurel. Do you know about thai \
Mr. Flannert. No, >ir. 1 can't answer on that either. I can explain
something about it if you want to listen.
Mr. Kick. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flannert. All right. On my shift I have the best part of the
time, seven men and myself.
Mr. Rice. You menu you can explain why you do not know about
it?
Mr. Flaxxery. Yes.
Mr. Rice. I am not interested in that. Explain what you do know
about it. How about the Knotty Pine?
Mr. Flaxxery. I know that is over there and I know it is a tavern.
As far as knowing anything, I don't know anything.
Mr. Rice. You do not know about any gambling that goes on at
Knotty Pine?
Mr. Flaxxery. No, sir, positively.
Mr. Rice. Let us make it perfectly plain then that you have never
discussed protection or payoff with anyone.
Mr. Flaxxery. No, sir, that is right.
Mr. Rice. Particularly at or around the time of the meeting of the
policemen's association at Ferndale?
Mr. Flaxxery. That is right.
Mr. Rice. That does not help you any to refresh your recollection?
Mr. Flaxxery. No, sir.
Senator Kefattver. Now this White House Inn, is that inside the
city limits of Ferndale ?
Mr. Smith. No, sir.
Mr. Flaxxery. It is in the county.
Mr. Smith. It is in what they call the fifth district near Baltimore,
near the Baltimore city line. It is in his patrol, though.
Senator Kefattver. All right, any other questions, Mr. Rice?
Mr. Rice. No further questions.
Senator Kefauver. That is all, thank you.
Mr. Rice. I think, Sergeant, you will remain under subpena. We
will get in touch with you when we want to talk with you again.
Senator Kefauver. Who is next?
Mr. Rice. Captain Wade.
Senator Kefauver. Captain Wade?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Do you swear the testimony you give this com-
mittee will be the whole truth so help you God?
Mr. Wade. I do, sir.
Senator Kefauver. All right, Mr. Rice, let us get to the point.
TESTIMONY OF WILBUR C. WADE, CAPTAIN, ANNE ARUNDEL
COUNTY (MD.) POLICE DEPARTMENT
Mr. Rice. What is your full name?
Mr. Wade. Wilbur C. Wade.
Mr. Rice. Sit down there, Mr. "Wade, please. And where do vou
live, Mr. Wade? J
Mr. Wade. Millersville.
170 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. Whereabouts in Millersville?
Mr. Wade. I live near Andersons Corner.
Mr. Rice. What is your address there?
Mr. Wade. Millersville.
Mr. Rice. Yes. You do not have any street address ?
Mr. Wade. No, sir. I live on a little back road. It cuts through
the highway to Fort Meade road.
Mr. Rice. What is your job?
Mr. Wade. I am captain of the Anne Arundel County Police De-
partment.
Mr. Rice. How long have you been with the Anne Arundel County
police?
Mr. Wade. I first became a special officer June 6, 1930, and when
the police department was organized in 1937, of course I went to
Ferndale, worked at headquarters. Prior to that time I worked
as part-time officer.
Mr. Rice. And are you now a captain?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir, I am.
Mr. Rice. And as captain what is your jurisdiction?
Mr. Wade. Well, I have jurisdiction over the entire county, Anne
Arundel County.
Mr. Rice. Are you in charge of the vice squad?
Mr. Wade. Well, Colonel Bratton right now
Mr. Rice. He is the chief of police ?
Mr. AVade. He is the new chief of police and is taking care of that
end of it.
Mr. Rice. He is taking care of it?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Was that ever your duty, to take care of that?
Mr. Wade. Well, I worked in plain clothes before the vice squad
was organized and that was some time in January.
Mi-. Rice. Going back over the years, have you ever been in charge
of the vice squad?
Mr. Wade. No, sir. We worked in plain clothes the last 2 years,
since the Mahlon-Kline murder case. We had no vice squad. Ser-
geant Praley and I were the two plain-clothes men. We were the only
two plain-clothes men.
Mr. Rice. You were the only two, you and Sergeant Pralev?
Mr. Wade. Yes.
Mr. Rice. And that was under Chief Souers?
Mr. Wade. Yes.
Mr. Rice. I see. Now back in 1945 you were working with Sergeant
Flannery one night, I think it was May 6, when Sergeant Downs
received a telephone call from Mrs. Frankel. Tell us about that. You
and Sergeant Flannery went out on this complaint?
Mr. Wade. As near as I can recall, we were in the station that night
when Downs received a call and Sergeant Flannery and I went over
there 1<> make an investigation.
Mr. Rice. What did Sergeant Downs tell you had happened over
there?
Mr. Wade. He says it is supposed to be a shooting over there. When
we arrived
Mi-. Rice. Did he say what kind of a shooting ?
Mi-. AVade. No, he didn't. He said there was a call from the AAHiite
House supposed to be a shooting up there, so we went over.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 171
Mr. Rice. What was the White House ?
Mr. Wade. The White House is a lodge, about 14-room house, I
guess, on Hammonds Lane, located about a half mile off the Governor
Ritchie Highway.
Mr. Rice. Did you say it was a gambling house ?
Mr. Wade. I didn't say it was a gambling house.
Mr. Rice. Was it a gambling house ?
Mr. Wade. It was reported from time to time that there was gam-
bling there ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And Sergeant Downs said there was a shooting over
there?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Did you go get a shotgun or a tommy gun ?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. What did you do \
Mr. Wade. We went over there, proceeded over there the same as
we would on any other call, and when we drove in we pulled up there
to the side of the house, that would be the west side of the house, and
went over and there was a man and a woman standing there on the
porch.
I asked them where the shooting was so they said there wasn't any
shooting. I said, '"Well, we just received a call at headquarters about
a shooting up there at the White House." They said, "Well, it must
have been an automobile backfired going down the road." I said,
"Well, can't you tell the difference between a backfire and a shot?"
Well, they said they seen nobody out there and we checked around and
there wasn't anything there, and we went on back.
Mr. Rice. Were they the people that called up ?
Mr. Wade. Well, I assume they were.
Mr. Rice. Did you find out who they were?
Mr. Wade. Well, there is usually three or four families live in that
house. If I am not mistaken it was Mrs. Frankel that was standing
on the porch.
Mr. Rice. You knew Mrs. Frankel ; did you not ?
Mr. Wade. Xo ; I did not.
Mr. Rice. Wife of Hymie ?
Mr. Wade. I didn't know her ; no, I didn't.
Mr. Rice. You assume it was her, you say ?
Mr. Wade. I seen her that night.
Mr. Rice. Who was the man ?
Mr. Wade. I don't recall whether it was her husband or not. More
than likely it was.
Mr. Rice. Hymie?
Mr. Wade. It's been 6 years ago and it is hard to remember.
Mr. Rice. Sure. Did you see a Rosen?
Mr. Wade. Xo, sir ; I didn't.
Mr. Rice. Do you know who Rosen is?
Mr. Wade. I don't know who Rosen is.
Mr. Rice. You never saw Rosen?
Mr. Wade. Xo, sir.
Mr. Rice. So that Hymie Frankel and his wife are standing on the
porch ?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
172 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Kick. And did you say, "Are you the people that called lip?"
Mr. Wade. That is right.
Mr. IiicE. Whal did they say?
Mr. Wade. They said, "Yes, we did." I said. "Well, what did you
call for? There is supposed to be a shooting here." She said, "Well,
we thought it was some shooting out here but it must have been an
automobile backfiring," and that is when 1 asked them, I said, "Can't
von determine between a shot and a backfire of an automobile." and
they didn't say whether they could or couldn't. I said, -After all, you
called, and said there was a shooting over here."
Mr. Kick. Did they have their clothing on, their night clothes?
Mr. Wade. Well, they were standing there on the porch. I guess
they were. If it hadn't been, I would have noticed it.
Mr. Kick. Von mean they did have their clothing on?
Mr. Wade. 1 would say they had, yes sir.
Mr. Rice. Two or three o'clock in the morning?
M r. Wade. I don't recall what time it was.
Mr. Kick. The report shows you received it at 2 : 10 a. m. Now then,
Sergeant Flannery went with you, you say \
Mr. "Wade. Yes, sir : he was with me.
Mr. Rice. Did he go up on the porch with you ?
Mr. Wade. Well, we pulled the car right there at the edge of the
porch. It is only I guess 25 or 30 foot from the porch to the driveway.
Mr. Rice. Did he participate in the conversation?
Mr. Wade. As near as I can recall he was with me.
Mr. Rick. You were together?
Mr. Wade. Sir?
Mr. Rick. You were together?
Mr. W7ade. That is right.
Mr. Rice. You both went up there and talked?
Mr. Wade. That is right, sir.
Mr. Rick. What did you decide to do about it?
Mr. Wade. Well, wTe took it for granted there wasn't anything to it.
We looked around, went through the yard and came back to Ferndale.
Mr. Rice. Didn't you have a radio car?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. Rick. Didn't you radio back to Sergeant Downs and tell him
3011 had to go over to the hospital?
Mr. Wade. Xo. sir.
Mr. Rice. Are yon sure about that \
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rick. If either Sergeant Flannery or Sergeant Dowms or
someone said that happened, they would be wrong?
Mi'. Wade. No. sir.
Mr. Rick. They would not be wrong?
Mi-. Wade. 1 don't know- whether they told you that or not, but it
is just not true. J never went to any hospital or received any call
to go to any hospital.
Mr. Rice. What sort of report did you make on that case?
Mr. Wade. There wasn't any report made on it to the best of my
knowledge.
Mr. Rick. Why do you say that?
Mr. Wade. Well, because there wasn't anything to it. If there
had been a report there would have been an investigation made and
also a report submitted.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 173
Mr. Rice. Now your day book there shows that a report whs made.
In some of the cases it shows there was ao report, bul this one shows
there was a report made. Does that help you any '.
Mr. Wade. I don't recall. Is this the card ?
Mr. Rice. Yes, about the fifth or sixth from the bottom there.
Mr. Wade. Auto accident. 569
Mr. Rice. It is 584 there, Captain.
Mr. Wade. Oh, yes. I don't know if there was a report made. I
don't know anything about it, and I should have been the one sub-
mitting a report if there had been one made.
Mr. Rice. You think you should have made it ?
Mr. Wade. I was a lieutenant at that time. If there had been one
made. I would have made it.
Mr. Rice. It says, "Report."
Mr. Wtade. It savs. '^Report/' There should be one there. If the
report was made, it ought to be in book one. /Unit would come under
miscellaneous. Book two is larceny, book "three is housebreaking,
burglary.
Mr. Rice. It would be in book one?
Mr. Wade. It should be in book one, yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. You said that Sergeant Downs told you there was a
shooting out there, go out and see what has happened. How come
it does not show on the record that there was a shooting '.
Mr. Wade. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. It just shows investigation?
Mr. Wade. I guess I would mark it down if
Mr. Rice. That would put it in a different book, would it not, if
there was a shooting? _ . -
Mr. Wade. According to my estimation it would, lhere is a clitter-
ence between a shooting and somebody backfiring in an automobile.
Mr. Rice. I wonder if you would be good enough to make a note
of that number there of that report and see if you cannot dig up
that report for us and get back in touch with us.
Mr Wade. We brought the book over with us that covers this par-
ticular case, or should. I don't know whether Sergeant Flannery
showed vou the book or not. He brought it in here with him.
Mr. Rice. How come vou brought that \
Mr. Wade. Because if there was anything pertaining to that year,
it would be in that book, 1945. It would be in book 1,
Mr. Rice. Didn't find it in there though, did you ?
Mr. Wade. I don't see any report in there. We looked for it at
headquarters. Then we decided to bring the book with us.
Mr. Rice. There is no point in looking for it then if you have already
done it. is there ? .
Mr. AVade. Well, the reports should have been filed m that book.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever discuss this matter with Souers, Chief
Souers \
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir. .
Mr. Rice. Did it ever come to your attention later on that there
was a shooting there?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
viL'77 — 51— pt. 17 — —12
174 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. A man by the name of Rosen got shot and went to the
hospital \
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Never heard that?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Never discussed that with anyone?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
M r. Rice. You are sure about that?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Who did you make your report to orally in connection
with that backfiring?
Mr. Wads. Nobody. There wasn't anything to make a report about.
Mr. Rice. Was there a gambling operation going on out at Laurel?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir: there was supposed to have been. In fact they
made a raid over there last year.
Mr. Rice. Who made that raid?
Mr. Wade. State police.
Mr. Rice. And that was in your county, was it not ?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. The time that you were working on vice?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
"Sir. Rice. And I think the McFarland report of the Senate and a
number of other indications were that there had been a wire service
ticker place there at Barbara Farm going for quite a long period of
time right in your county. What did you know about that place ?
Mr. Wade. Nothing.
Mr. Rice. You did not know any tiling about it?
Mr. Wade. Never been reported to me, sir.
Mr. Rice. Was it a mystery to you ?
Mr. Wade. Well, I wouldn't say it is a mystery, but according to
the information I received from Sheriff Bell from Prince Georges
County, the operation had only been going about 3 weeks. During
the time the chief was dismissed I was acting chief of police, and we
happened to meet in Baltimore and had dinner together one day along
with another officer and he stated during the course of conversation
that this fellow was operating in Prince Georges County prior to the
time he took office. At that time he run him out or he left the county
as soon as he took office.
Mr. Rice. Did you know about this operation going on out there?
Mr. Wade. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Rice. You want to say you do not know anything about it?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Nor who was there ?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Did you know anything about any gambling place in
your county \
Mr. Wade. It has been reported from time to time that we had
gambling, and I did at those times make investigations the best I
could. I worked with Mr. Fuller last summer. I worked before
with Churchill Murray. He is foreman of the grand jury last year.
Mi-. Fuller and Mr. O'Connor, Mr. Armstrong.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever make any arrests in either the White House
Inn, the Knotty Pine, or Barbara Farm?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 175
Mr. Rice. Did you ever make an investigation of those places?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir. e .
Mr. Rice. What became of those investigations'
Mr. Wade. I submitted my report to Chief Souers.
Mr. Rice. What happened ?
Mr Wade. Well, if you go up there to watch them or try to get
evidence they would move out, stay away for a while and come back,
and the same thing would happen again.
Mr. Rice. What would you tell Chief bouers in your report I
Mr. Wade. I would state what I had seen.
Mr. Rice. What did you see ?
Mr. Wade. You see people moving around, going in and out.
Mr. Rice. It looked like they were active?
Mr. Wade. Sir? . .... ,,
Mr. Rice. It looked like they were active there, did it not I
Mr. Wade. Well, I would say that at times; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And then did you ever make a raid ?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Whv not?
Mr. Wade. Because we had never obtained enough information.
Mr. Rice. All right. Now you went in police work in 1930, is that
right?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What did you do before that?
Mr. Wade. I worked for the Sun paper.
Mr. Rice. For the Sun paper ?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. As a what ?
Mr. Wade. Carrier.
Mr. Rice. What did you do about before that ?
Mr. Wade. Farm.
Mr. Rice. On a farm before that ?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. All right, sir; do you own your own home 4
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir. I have about a $1,400 mortgage on it.
Mr. Rice. How much equity do you have in it ? What is it worth?
Mr. Wade. In 1947—1 had rented prior to that time from Mr. Nelson
Turner. I paid $18 a month rent, and on April 1, 1947, he come to
me and asked me did I want to buy the place or whether I wanted to
move, that he had to sell it, so I asked him what he wanted for the
place and he said $6,000, so I went to see my mother and talked to her
and she asked me was that the kind of a place that I wanted and I
told her I was satisfied with it, I had been living there since 1933.
It could be fixed up a little, so she went to see Mr. Turner and they
finally agreed to let me have it for $5,000, so my mother paid Mr.
Turner, George Wolf handled the transaction, attorney for my mother,
o-ave Mr. Turner a check, $250 at the time the deal was made.
= Mr. Rice. Go a little bit slower there, Mr. Wade. Who gave who
a check?
Mr. Wade. My mother.
Mr. Rice. What is your mother's name ?
Mr. Wade. Katherine R. Wade.
Mr. Rice. Did she live with you ?
Mr. Wade. No, sir ; she lives on the farm.
176 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. She gave Mr. Turner a check, is that right I
Mr. "Wade. That is right.
Mr. Kick. For $250. That was the down money?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you know what bank that was '.
Mr. Wade. Glen Burnie Bank.
Mr. Rice. Is that the name of it?
Mr. Wade. Glen Burnie Bank.
Mr. Rice. Glen Burnie Bank?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Then what happened!1
Mr. Wade. Then in June she settled it. She paid the other $4,750
and I had to sign my interest off in the home place.
Mr. Rice. Then your mother put up the other $4,750 when ?
Mr. Wade. It was probably 30 days later.
Mr. Rice. She settled on the house then within a few months, and
she again drew a check on the Glen Burnie Bank?
Mr. Wade. Yes.
Mr. Rice. And you took title?
Mr. Wade. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Rice. That paid it all off?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Now then, you said you have a $1,400 mortgage on it?
Mr. Wade. I borrowed $2,000 from Capital Building and Loan
Association on it.
Mr. Rice. Where are they located? In Baltimore?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. When did you borrow that $2,000, Mr. Wade?
Mr. Wade. I think it "was in 1948.
Mr. Rice. What was that for ?
Mr. Wade. To put water in the house, have a bathroom. I didn't
have any bathroom.
Mr. Rice. You are paying that off so much a month now?
Mr. Wade. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Do you own any other property?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rtce. You do not own any other real property?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Where is your bank account \
Mr. Wade. I don't have any.
Mr. Rice. Yon have no bank account?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have a safe deposit box?
Mi-. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do yon have any stocks and bonds?
Mr. W \nr.. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any other property either real or personal?
Mr. W \m:. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You do not have anything but your interest in your
llOnsc \
Mr. Wade. Thai is all.
Mr. Rice. Do you have an automobile?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 177
Mr. Rice. What sort of an automobile ?
Mr. Wade. Chrysler.
Mr. Rice. What year?
Mr. Wade. 1949.
Mr. Rice. Where did you buy that?
Mr. Wade. L. C. Galley.
Mr. Rice. Where is he located?
Mr. Wade. Ferndale.
Mr. Rice. How much did you pay for that?
Mr. Wade. They allowed me $1*,900 on my other car. It cost me
thirty-one
Mi-. Rice. 1900?
Mr. Wade. Yes. sir; and I owe the balance on that one. I had it
financed for a few years.
Mr. Rice. All you did was trade in the car you had and finance the
balance ?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Xo money changed hands?
Mr. Wade. No. sir.
Mr. Rice. What did you trade in on it ?
Mr. Wade. I trade iii a 1948.
Mr. Rice. Chrysler?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Why?
Mr. Wade. Because I didn't like it, It looked like a hack.
Mr. Rice. You have no bank accounts any place?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about your wife? Are you married?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Does your wife have a bank account ?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Where do you file your tax return?
Mr. Wade. With the' internal revenue?
Mr. Rice. At Baltimore?
Mr. Wade. Baltimore; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Are they joint returns with your wife?
Mr. Wade. No, sir; she has never worked.
Mr. Rice. When you make out your return, it includes any income
your wife has. She does not make a separate return ?
Mr. Wade. She does not work. She never had any income.
Mr. Rice. She has no separate accounts?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Does she own any property?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Own any bonds?
Mr. Wade. No, sir, I had a couple $50 bonds and I had to cash
them in.
Senator Kefauver. Captain Wade, why didn't you close up this
White House Inn \
Mr. Wade. Sir?
Senator Kefauver. Why didn't you ever close up this White House
Inn?
Mr. Wade. Why didn't I close it up?
Senator Kefauver. Yes.
178 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Wade. Well, as far as I know the place has never been oper-
al ing in tlic last 4 or 5 years. It was during the time we were short
of men, had nobody to work over there. There was only about two
or three of us working at a time.
Senator Kefauver. Just last year you read m the paper, didn t you,
that, the McFarland committee found that they had had and were
pa vin<: for wire service over there to run a book?
Mr. Wade. They may have had wire service, but I know there was
no open gambling over there, Mr. Kefauver.
Senator Kefauver. How did you know that?
Mr. Walk. We wanted the place. I took Mr. Fuller there volun-
tarily one afternoon and showed him the place, told him there had
been reported gambling in the place,
Senator Kefauver. Did you go inside?
Mr. Wade. No, sir; we didn't. .
Senator Kefauver. What do you think they were paying $50 or
$75 a week for wire service for?
Mr. Wade. What did you say, sir?
Senator Kefauver. I said, why did you think they were paying $<5
a week for wire service ?
Mr. Wade. I don't know, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Sixty-five dollars a week as a matter ot tact,
and the Knotty Pine Lodge was paying $75 a week. It was pretty
well known that it was a gambling place, was it not, Captain Wade?
Mr. Wade. Well, years ago, but not recently.
Senator Kefauver. Did the State police get in touch with you be-
fore they closed up this place at Laurel ?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Did you know it was operating then?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. What is the name of that place?
Mr. Wade. Sir?
Senator Kefauver. What is the name of that place that was op-
erating in Laurel?
Mr. Wade. I don't know.
Mr. Rick. Do you know Johnny Max?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What business is he in ?
Mr. Wade. So far as I know he used to own a lot of race horses.
Mr. Rice. Just owns race horses? What does he do for a living?
Mr. Wade. I don't know.
Mr. Rice, h would not be possible that he would be running that
place, would it?
Mr Wade. I couldn't say, sir.
Mr. Rice. You never checked to find out, did you ?
Mr. Wade. Xo, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Who did the State police arrest there, anybody?
Mr. Wade. Sir?
Senator Kefauver. Who did they arrest at Laurel ? Is Laurel m
your county?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. When they raided it, who did they arrest?
Mr. Wade. I only know by what I read in the paper.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 179
Senator Kefauver. Didn't they turn them over to you?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Did you follow up on it to go out and see
whether it was still operating or not ?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Captain Wade, do you make investigations on
your own or do you wait for somebody to complain before you act?
Mr. Wade. No, sir. Nobody operating over there in that place. It
is on that back road that goes back to the training school, the Dis-
trict Training School.
Senator Kefauver. Didn't you hear that the place was operating
before the State police raided it ?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Isn't that rather unusual for the State police
to come in and raid a place without saying anything to the local law-
enforcement officers?
Mr. Wade. They are welcome to do it any time they want, Mr. Ke-
fauver. It doesn't make any difference to me. If they can find some-
thing and get them, let them go ahead. If they want to call me and
work with them, I am satisfied to work with them.
Senator Kefauver. Doesn't that sort of indicate they do not expect
local police to do much about it if they have to do it on their own?
Mr. Wade. I would not want to answer that question because after
all, they are law enforcement officers the same as we are, and if they
have a complaint, they have a perfect right to go ahead and do as
their see fit.
Senator Kefauver. All right, anything else ?
Mr. Rice. Yes. To make the record perfectly plain, you want to say
then that you never received a complaint from anyone that there was
a gambling operation going on at Laurel?
Mr. Wade. I won't say — at the place that they raided, yes sir. but I
received a complaint about the old place that was back over the hill
and I made an investigation of that, sir.
Mr. Rick. What did you do I What was that, the Barbara Farm '.
Mr. Wade. I think that was around '43 or '44, way back.
Mr. Rice. What did you do?
Mr. Wade. I parked the car and watched the place the best I could,
and after watching it several days I made a report on what I seen,
which wasn't anything. Probably one or two cars come down the back
road and ptdl in that old big house where the hedge is high.
Mr. Rice. Whose place was that \
Mr. Wade. It is supposed to have been Mr. Barbara's. Gil Bar-
bara's.
Mr. Rice. You made a report that you watched Gil Barbara's place
and did not see anything except the cars?
Mr. Wade. That is right.
Mr. Rice. That was the end of that investigation, was it not?
Mr. Wade. I would not say the end of it. Occasionally I would
drive past and see what I could see, but those days we had nobody to
work. Just like I told you before, it was during the war. We made in-
vestigations for the FBI on aliens, we checked the draft board, regular
routine work. We didn't have too much time to spend on that type of
work.
180 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. The last -I yours, about how many raids have you made for
gambling in the county '.
Mr. Wade. I would say about six or seven.
Mr. Rick. Has anybody gone to jail ?
Mr. Wade. They all paid lines. Some of them were given suspended
sentences.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever raid the Knotty Pine?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Ever raid the White House?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about Patty Clark? Did you over raid him?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you know Nick Andrews?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What business is he in?
Mr. Wade. He is supposed to have been in business in our county,
and then lie finally come down to Anne Arundel County. He has been
down around Crystal Reach with his father, as far as I know.
Mr. Rice. Where does he live?
Mr. Wade. He lives in Anne Arundel, so they tell me. I don't
know.
Mr. Rice. What business is he in?
Mr. Wade. No business so far as I know.
Mr. Rice. He runs slot machines, does he not?
Mr. Wade. No, his father runs the slot machines.
Mr. Rice. What is his brother's name?
Mr. Wade. Thomas.
Mr. Rice. What does Nick do?
Mr. Wade. You are too hard for me. He is a goof or somebody.
I hear you call him a goof.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever transact any business with him?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that?
Mr. Wade. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Ever transact any business with his brother?
Mr. Wade. No, sir.
Senator Kefatjver. All right Captain Wade, thank you, sir.
Mr. Rice. You will remain under subpena, Captain Wade. We may
call you again.
Senator Kefauvkr. You do not need to wait here this afternoon. If
we need you again we will let you know.
Chief, do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this com-
mittee will be the whole truth, so help you God?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN H. SOUERS, FERNDALE, MD.
Mi'. Rice. What is your full name?
Mr. SoTJERS. John H. Souers.
Mr. RlCE. What does the II stand for?
Mr. Soukks. Harry.
Mr. Rice. Where do you live?
Mr. Souers. Ferndale.
Mr. Kick. Do you have a street address there ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 181
Mr. Souers. 2 Broadview Boulevard.
Mr. Rice. What is your telephone number?
Mr. Souers. 355.
Mr. Rice. Do you have an unlisted phone?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is your job?
Mr. Souers. I was former chief of police at Anne Arundel County.
Mr. Rice. What is your present job ?
Mr. Souers. Right now I am not doing anything. I am going
back to carpentry work .
Mr. Rice. Carpentry work \
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Did you do carpentry work before 3<ou became — —
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. When did you become connected with the police de-
partment ?
Mr. Souers. February 25, 1929, part time.
Mr. Rice. You were then doing carpentry work ?
Mr. Souers. I was a contractor then.
Mr. Rice. Xow, then, you were part time. When did you become
a full-time law-enforcement officer?
Mr. Souers. I think I went in full time either the last part of 1934
or 1935.
Mr. Rice. And from that time on you were in law enforcement
until when ?
Mr. Souers. Until this year.
Mr. Rice. Approximately what date this year \
Mr. Souers. April 1, I put my papers in April 1 and the police
board asked me to stay until April 15. I left April 15, 1951.
Mr. Rice. When did you become chief of the county police, Mr.
Souers ?
Mr. Souers. June 1, 1937.
Mr. Rice. In 1937 until 1947 you were chief of the Anne Arundel
County Police? .
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. We have been discussing this afternoon a shooting that
took place out at the White House Inn back in 1945 in which a fellow
by the name of Rosen went to the hospital. Tell us what you know
about that.
Mi-. Souers. The first time I heard that was outside in the hall.
Captain Wade asked me did I ever hear of any shooting at the White
House Tavern and I says no, I never have, and I never have until
that time. Never heard anything about any shooting.
Mr. Rice. When did Captain Wade ask you that?
Mr. Souers. This morning when I come in, he still calls me chief,
he says, "Chief, did you ever hear of any shooting at the White
House?" I says, "Shooting?" He says, "Yes.-' I says, "No, never.
Never have heard of any shooting."
Mr. Rice. What was that White House Inn, or what is it?
Mr. Souers. Well. I had several complaints in regard to it. It
was gambling at times. The}7 would go in, come out, operate for a
while, leave, then come back again.
Mr. Rice. Whose place was it ?
Mr. Souers. A guy by the name of Herman or something like that.
182 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. Herman. That is some years ago ?
Mr. Soubrs. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And I hen who took it over?
Mr. Souers. I don't know. Nobody else took it over.
Mr. Rice. Are you referring to Frankel when you talk about
Herman or is that a different man?
Mr. Souers. I think it was Herman Franklin or something like
that.
Mr. Rice. Do you know Frankel ?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
M r. Rice. Hymie Frankel ?
Mr. Souers. No, sir. I know him when I see him.
M r. Rice. Were you ever in the place ?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever make an investigation of the place I
Mr. Souers. No, sir; I have gone up in front of the place, in the
driveway. I have sat over in the weeds in a police car. I have put
police cars in there time and time again.
IS I r. Rice. Did you ever check to see who owned it ?
Mr. Souers. No sir, I didn't. . .
Mr. Rice. Your investigation would be, you were watching it, is
that it?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Suppose there was a telephone place that was taking
telephone bets, lay-off bets or telephone action, how would you
investigate that type of place?
Mr. Souers. In regards to the telephone, I didn't know how really
to get to check on the telephones until 1949, and that was at the time,
that was the latter part of '49 when I put two plain-clothes men to
work. I never had any plain-clothes men.
Mr. Rice. Who were they ?
Mr. Souers. That was Wade and Praley.
Mr. Rice. And they were your vice squad then ?
Mr. Souers. That is right, at that time in '49. Then I consulted
Captain Emerson and through Captain Emerson in Baltimore city,
he gave me the information through Mr. Monroe of the Chesapeake
& Potomac Telephone Co. how to obtain information.
Mr. Rice. What did you do?
Mr. Souers. I did ? In other words, I had a complaint about a place
first, I called Mr. Monroe by phone. He said he didn't think it would
be proper to call by phone. "You better send somebody in," so I
sent somebody in for the information and we watched the place, and
get a search and seizure warrant and knock it off.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever knock off the White House Inn?
Mr. Souers. No.
M r. Rice. Did you ever make a telephone check on it?
Mr. Souers. No, sir, not recently.
Mr. Rick. Ever?
Mr. Souers. A long while sigo.
Mr. Rick. What happened to that ?
Mr. Souers. There wasn't no telephone in there. You see. the White
House on Hammonds Lane, I am positive at the time they did booking
there, the phones weren't there. That was somewheres else. They
were somewheres else.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 183
Mr. Kice. You mean the phones were right near by ?
Mr. Souers. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And they were jumping them over some way or another.
Mr. Souers. That is right.
.Mr. Rice. How did you find out about that?
Mr. Souers. I heard that. It was in the Baltimore Sun, it was on
Frederick Street where three men had a telephone book and they
would go in the front door and go off the skyline roof — I am sure
Jackson knows about that — walk to the end of the block, go down
and the wires across there. I was talking to the police in Baltimore
city. They said that is the way the White House did.
Mr. Rice. When you found out that was probably what they were
doing, what did you do ?
Mr. Souers. Truthfully I went in there one night myself, I snuck in
the window and looked around. I couldn't find no phone. I watched
those people go out and I went in the window and looked around to
see if I could find the phones. There wasn't no phones in the place.
Mr. Rice. Did anyone go with you?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You went there by yourself?
Mr. Souers. I went out there, stayed in a trailer camp in the weeds
and watched the place and went over and got in the window and looked
through the house and couldn't find no phones.
Mr. Rice. Did you use a flashlight \
Mr. Souers. Yes, a small flashlight.
Mr. Rice. When was that ?
Mr. Souers. That was I would say about the middle part of 1950.
Mr. Rice. Was that after you found out about the wire service
being in there ?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir ; that was in '49 when I found about that wire
service.
Mr. Rice. Ticker.
Mr. Souers. No, I didn't know that until I think it was '51.
Mr. Rice. Well in 1950 in April or May the McFarland Senate com-
mittee report was published in the paper in which it was set out that
there were wire services, ticker services to the White House Farms
still running up in January of 1951, still paying $65 a week.
Mr. Souers. Did you say it was in the paper ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Souers. I didn't see it.
Mr. Rice. No one told you about that?
Mr. Souers. No.
Mr. Rice. You never made a check to find out what places in the
county had wire service tickers ?
Mr. Souers. Only one time Mr. Churchill Murray, he was formerly
with the grand jury. I didn't know how to get that information and
I don't know whether he got it directly himself or through a committee,
but they did have information on tickers.
At that time I am positive it was supposed to be four tickers in
Anne Arundel County, one in the Governor's office, one in the Naval
Academy, and two somewhere else.
Mr. Rice. One where?
Mr. Souers. One in the Naval Academy.
184 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. In the Naval Academy I
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kick. A ticker?
Mr. Sot ers. I guess that is what you would call it, and one in the
( rovernor's office. Don't they have one there, too?
Mr. Rice. No: 1 am talking about a horse-race ticker.
Mi. Souers. Well, that is the same listing, isn't it?
Mr. Rice. No.
Mr. Souers. Isn't there one like it in the Governor's Mansion?
Mr. Rice.No. The record shows there was one at White House
Farms, one at Knotty Pine, and for a long time there was one in
Barbara Farms under the uame of S. Friedlander at Laurel.
Mr. Sot ers. Is that the place they knocked off here not long ago
at Laurel (
Mr. Rice. Yes, sir.
Mr. Souers. No, sir, I didn't know that.
Mr. Rice. Didn't know anything about any of those \
Mr. Souers. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. Rice. How about the one at the Knotty Pine? Do you know
where that is?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir, I do.
Mr. Rick. What was going on there?
Mr. Souers. I think at times they booked off and on. The last
time I had been in there I took a man in the county in there. He went
in, reported back to the State's attorney that the dust was thick in the
place, the place was empty, there hadn't been nobody in there for a
year or so.
Mr. Rice. Let's see if we can't fix a time when that happened. When
did you send that man out to Knotty Pine?
Mr. Souers. I am not sure, but I think it was the first part of 1949.
Mr. Rice. Who was the man?
Mr. Souers. Sergeant Mead.
Mr. Rice. Brook Mead ?
Mr. Souers. That is right, brought him up from the other end and
he went in there. I am nol sine, but I think he reported back to the
State's attorney on it. He said at that time the place was empty, had
nobody in it for a long time, and it was dust there an inch thick.
Mr. Rice. Whose place was that?
Mr. Souers. What is that guy's name '. I don't know what his name
is any more now.
Mr. Rice. Is he still around?
Mr. Souers. No, I haven't heard of that guy for a long time.
Mr. Rice. Who went with Mead; anyone?
Mr. Souers. Yes, somebody did, but I don't recall who it was.
Mr. Rice. I have a record here which shows that Knotty Pine was
paying $75 per week for wire service through 1950 and was still active
in January 1951.
Mr. SOUERS. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Rice. No investigation established that they were active during
any of that time?
Mr. Souers. That place is a tavern there. That tavern has been
there I don't know how many years.
Mr. Rice. Pennington A.venue?
Mr. Souers. Yes. sir, Knotty Pine Tavern. It is a tavern there and
you can walk right in and out of the place.
ORGANIZED CRIME TNT INTERSTATE COMMERCE 185
Mr. Rice. Have you ever made an independent check with either
Howard Sports or World-Wide News and Muzak or any available
source to find out what places in the county were receiving race wire
service ?
Mr. Souers. No. sir ; I did not. The only one made was by Churchill
Murray before the grand jury.
Mr. Rice. At the time that Mead went up there, did he go in the
place?
Mr. Souers. Yes. sir.
Mr. Rice. Did he tell you what was in there?
Mr. Souers. Yes, he said there was some old dirty looking furniture
in there.
Mr. Rice. Betting windows or betting cages?
Mr. Souers. No, I don't recall that.
Mr. Rice. Any gambling equipment at all?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Didn't see any gambling equipment?
Mr. Souers. No, sir; he said the dust was real thick. There hadn't
been anybody in there for a long while.
Mr. Rice. Was the building completely empty ?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Not even running as a tavern. Then it started up again?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. You did not conduct any investigation when it opened
up again ?
Mr. Souers. No. The police were in and out of the tavern because
you can easily walk in and out of there.
Mr. Rice. Did it have a back room ?
Mr. Souers. Not that I know, I don't think so.
Mr. Rice. Tell us about the Barbara Farm, Patty Clark, what was
the history on that?
Mr. Souers. I don't know what you mean.
Mr. Rice. Never heard of it?
Mr. Souers. Try to make it a little clearer to me.
Mr. Rice. The place that gave you all that trouble and the State
police raided the farm out there and they arrested these people and
the inference was that you did not know anything about it.
Mr. Souers. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What was the story on that ?
Mr. Souers. The story as far as I know about the place is this:
The State police raided it. Over in that section of the county the
county police very seldom go. We have a very small police depart-
ment. We do not have a whole lot of men.
Mr. Rice. How many men did you have?
Mr. Souers. At that time ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Souers. In that station 11 men, counting myself .
Mr. Rice. How about in the whole county ?
Mr. Souers. Right now for instance there are 65 men there.
Mr. Rice. How many were there in January of 1951 in the whole
county ?
Mr. Souers. Fifty-five — fifty-three.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever have a complaint on operations going on out
there near Laurel ?
186 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Souers. That is what I started to tell you about. I never have
received any complaint pertaining to it, and if I remember correctly
when Officer Smith and Sergeant Jackson, I think if I am not mis-
taken, test ified thai it was asked— "Could you detect the place by tele-
phone wires?'" — t hey said there wasn't no telephone wires going to the
place, they were underground, and I never have received a complaint
pertaining to it.
Another thing, the sheriff of Prince Georges County told one of
the officers from leading the paper he knew that place could not have
been there that long because he had run that numbers man out of
the Prince Georges County right after he took office, and he took
office in December of 1950. That is the sheriff of Prince Georges
County.
Mr. Rice. What number man are you talking about?
Mr. Souers. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Patty Clark?
Mr. Souers. I don't know Patty Clark.
Mr. Smith. We did not raid the place until December 1950.
Mr. Rice. Tell us what complaints you did have about the place or
what you knew7 about the place.
Mr. Souers. I never had a complaint pertaining to that place,
and I never heard one word ever mentioned about that place.
Mr. Rice. It was said it was one of the largest lay-off places on the
east coast. How do you account for that operation going on in your
county without your knowing about it?
Mr. Souers. Well, as I tried to tell you before, if I remember right
these officers testified, these gentlemen that you have here, that they
couldn't detect, after they went they couldn't find out about it. Isn't
that right, Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Rice. We are not going to labor the point. The record definitely
indicates there was a tremendous amount handled there and a great
volume of lay-off betting involving cities such as Philadelphia, Cin-
cinnati, Baltimore, Washington, and other east coast cities. That
telephone bill there monthly ran into hundreds of dollars. That there
were a number of men involved and generally a large dice game, 2
or 8 nights a week operating there. The men pled guilty I believe
at the time of the trial. There did not seem to be any question but
what there was a major operation going on there.
Mr. Souers. It probably was; but I had no complaint and had never
heard a word about it.
Mr. Rice. Do you act only on complaints or did you conduct any in-
dividual investigation in the county?
Mr. Souers. Would you want me to give you some idea in regards
to that ?
Mr. Rice. I am interested in knowing what your policy was.
Senator Kefauver. Tell us about it.
Mr. Souers. Senator Kefauver, we have in Anne Arundel County
probably you know 426 square miles, and up until 1950 or this year we
had •"'"> men. and those 53 men are broke into eight shifts. They do
some patrolling but very little.
They answer complaints by radio, by telephone, take care of the
schools, make inspection of all machines, beer license, liquor license,
consoles, poolroom license, drug store license, every license there is
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 187
compulsory, make a sheet out. They have to go into all the stores and
take care of the schools.
If you take all that, you didn't have enough men to get around the
county the way you are supposed to. It is impossible. I did all the
checking I possibly could do and as soon as I gol more men I did what
I thought was a much better job. I started to tell you the place — I
was talking to the fire marshal. He was in that pari Lcular place there
3 months ago if you remember to make a check on a fire hazard and the
roof was half in, the pipes was down and there wasn't nobody living
in t he place. He testified to that in Annapolis.
Mr. Rice. Did you. ever hear of St. Helena Island ?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What happened over there?
Mr. Souers. The best I can tell you about that, I heard something
about that a long while ago. I went down to the beach on this side.
I don't know if you ever have been there or not, and a man on the boat,
I don't know his name any more, I asked him if Mr. So and So was
there.
Mr. Rice. Colonel Carter?
Mr. Souers. I believe it was Walker.
Mr. Rice. It may have been Walker ?
Mr. Souers. I believe it was, and he said no, Mr. Walker has gone
in to get some groceries, so when I turned around to walk back up
the little platform
Mr. Rice. What did you go there for ?
Mr. Souers. Complaint. Somebody said they had been shooting
crap over there.
Mr. Rice. You went over there personally then ?
Mr. Souers. No, I didn't. I went on the beach. You have to go on
a boat. I asked if Mr. Walker was there and he said Mr. Walker went
into some place to get some groceries and when I walked back to the
beach to get my car, a man came down and I asked, "Are you Mr.
Walker?" And he said, "Yes." I said, "If your intentions are to do
any gambling of any kind over here, you better go ahead and get off
that island and get away from here." That is exactly what I told him.
Mr. Rice. Is that all the conversation you had with Walker?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Did he offer you any money?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Did you talk to Carter?
Mr. Souers. No sir ; I don't know Carter.
Mr. Rice. Wasn't it true that there was an active table gambling
casino going on on the island for one whole summer?
Mr. Souers. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Rice. You never had any complaints about that?
Mr. Souers. No, sir; we had police lived right there. I don't see
how it is possible.
Mr. Rice. What year was that you went over there?
Mr. Souers. It seems like it was about 2 years ago.
Mr. Rice. You were chief of police then ?
Mr. Souers. Sure.
Mr. Rice. Did you make a practice of going out on gambling com-
plaints yourself?
]SS ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Sotjers. No, sir. I stopped in there. T am not sure, but I
think the State's attorney asked me something about that audi
stopped in on my way up the Crane Highway, the what-do-you-call-it,
and went into the harbor and wenl down there on the beach.
Mr. Rice. And your purpose was to determine if there was a
gambling operation going on there?
.Mr. Sci brs. Fes, sir; I asked the officers. The officer has a little
shack there LO by LO, and I asked him if he seen any cars there, and
says no. He says, "There ain't anything going on around there,
Chief."
Mr. Rick. The game went on at night.
Mr. Sotjers. He is down there. He spends a lot of time. He is
down there every evening, going fishing, him and his wife.
Mr. Rice. What officer was that I
Mr. Sotjers Officer Arthur.
Mr. Rick. Is he still on the force?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rick. Was it Mr. Morton who asked you about that?
Mr. Soikks. I am not sure whether it was 2 years ago or a little
longer. I just forget now whether it was the other State's attorney
or this State's attorney.
Mr. Rick. You reported back to him "Nothing doing over there,"
is that the idea ?
Mr. Soi i.ks. I think I told him, exactly what I did; I think I told
him.
Mr. Rtck. Wasn't a man beaten up and robbed over there as a
result of a gambling venture?
Mr. Soukrs. I never heard anything about it.
Mr. Rick. Do you know Hym'ie Frankel? Did you know Frankel ?
Mr. Soukrs. No. I heard of a Herman Franklin or something
like that. I don't think it was that name.
Mr. Rice. How about Sidney Rosen?
Mr. Souers. Who?
Mr. Rick. Sidney Rosen, the man who got shot out there at the
White House.
Mr. Souers. No, I never heard of that name.
Mr. Rick. Did you ever hear the story of Chicken Joe Cassiola
came out there and shot him ?
Mr. Soukrs. No, sir.
Mr. Rick. Never heard anything about that?
Mr. Soukrs. No, sir.
Mr. Rtck. The records in the hospital show that Rosen was shot
up out there at the White House in 1945. How about Goldberg? Do
you know George Goldberg?
Mr. Soi'krs. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rhk. What does he do?
Mr. Soukrs. T locked his brother up one time.
Mr. Rice. What brother?
Mr. Sotjers. That's been a long while back. I took him for num-
bers one time. I took $7,500 away from him and he filed suit against
me and I wonldn't give him the money. Finally they settled. He
got half and the county got half of it. " Paid a fine. Each one paid
a fine of three thousand.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 189
Mr, Rice. This was Goldberg's brother?
Mr. Souers. Yes.
Mr. Rice. And you say you caught him with the money on him ?
Mr. Souers. Yes.
Mr. Rice. And number slips?
Mr. Souers. I caught him and two other men was in the car when I
grabbed the car.
Mr. Rice. How long ago is that?
Mr. Souers. I don't know if that was 1947 or not.
Mr. Rice. You say you got $7,000?
Mr. Souers. I grabbed the three of them. We had some police with
me. We had a search warrant, grabbed the car. It was Buick I
believe, and brought the Buick in, and I searched the three of them
myself. I took around $7,500 off of them and some slips out of their
pockets. They were tried.
Mr. Rice. Were they tried or did they plead guilty ?
Mr. Souers. I don't remember whether they pleaded guilty or not.
Mr. Rice. Do you remember who the judge was?
Mr. Souers. Yes, Judge Dunker. They paid $1,000 fine apiece and
the $7,500 they wanted me to give it back, and I told them no, I didn't
have the authority. They would have to get a court order, and they
got a release from the court and they decided to take half and the
county half.
Mr. Rice. Who made that deal ?
Mr. Souers. Judge Michaelson.
Mr. Rice. Who agreed to it for the county ?
Mr. Souers. Judge Michaelson.
Mr. Rice. Judge Michaelson did?-
Mr. Souers. Yes.
Mr. Rice. I thought it was Dunker that had the case.
Mr. Souers. Oh, no ; I am talking about this $7,500.
Mr. Rice. Who represented Goldberg* Who was his lawyer?
Mr. Souers. I know they sent me a letter and told me they were
going to file a suit against me in the county for $7,500.
Mr. Rice. Who was the lawyer (
Mr. Souers. I am just trying to think.
Mr. Rice. Is he an Annapolis lawyer ?
Mr. Souers. I think that was an Annapolis lawyer.
Mr. Rice. You say you think that was Mr. Dunker?
Mr. Souers. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Which Mr. Dunker?
Mr. Souers. Do you know Mr. Dunker's first name ? If you men-
tioned it, I will remember.
Mr. Rice. There are two or three Mr. Dunkers there. Is he a lawyer
at Annapolis?
Mr. Souers. No; he is in Baltimore, I think.
Mr. Rice. He made the deal with Judge Michaelson and they
worked it out?
Mr. Souers. I was there when they did it. They said they would
take 50 percent. They wanted it all. Judge Michaelson wasn't the
judge yet. He was the counsel for the county commissioners, that's
right. He was counsel for the county commissioners.
85277—51 pt. 17 13
190 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. How about the State's attorney, was he in that, too?
Mr. Sot ers. They consulted the judge. How they did it, I don't
know. I mean I had nothing to do with that part.
Mr. Rice. It certainly is not clear to me, as I understand it now,
when they were arrested", they had the $7,500 on them?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And they were tried and found guilty before Judge
Dnnker?
Mr. Soueks. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kick. And you still had the money?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kick. They wanted to know what to do with the money ?
Mr. Soi brs. I could have released it to the lawyer, but I didn't
have the authority. I was scared to release that $7,500.
Mr. Rice. Got out a deal, but it was not Judge Dunker?
Mr. Souers. No.
Mr. Rice. Did he pass sentence ?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. "What was his sentence?
Mr. Souers. $1,000 fine apiece.
Mr. Rice. That is $3,000 (
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Any jail sentence?
Mr. Souers. No, sir; no jail sentence.
Mr. Rice. He says S3,i >00. They paid $3,000 and you still had $4,500
left.
Mr. Souers. Seventy-five hundred.
Mr. Rice. After this three was paid (
Mr. Souers. Oh, sure. They didn't take it out of that. I wouldn't
touch that money.
Mr. Rice. They paid $3,000 with separate money then? You still
had $7,500?
Mr. Souers. They posted bond of $3,000.
Mr. Rice. After they paid their fine you still had $7,500 ?
Mr. Souers. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Then what happened?
Mr. Souers. As I say, Dunker, I think that is his name, wanted me
to turn the money back, and I told him I had no authority to turn that
money hack. He would have to have a court order. I didn't know
any other way around it. so they got in touch with a lawyer in the
county.
Mr. Rice. Who was he?
Mr. Souers. Mr. Michaelson was at that time, which is Judge
Michaelson today.
Mr. Rice. He was State's attorney then?
Mr. Souers. No, he was counsel to the county commissioners.
Mr. Rice. He did not prosecute gambling cases?
Mr. Souers. There wasn't no prosecution there. The men had been
prosecuted, t ried.
Mr. Rice. Who tried them, who prosecuted them ?
Mr. Sori.us. Judge Dunker.
Mr. Rice. But there was a State's attorney that represented the
county, was there not ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 191
Mr. Souers. No. They were tried for instance in a magistrate's
court, a trial magistrate.
Mr. Rice. Who presented the evidence against them?
Mr. Souers. I did.
Mr. Rice. You tried the case then ?
Mr. Souers. Well, I did not try the case. I presented the evidence
and the judge found them guilty.
Mr. Rice. There wasn't any State's attorney or lawyer for the
county there at all ?
Mr." Souers. I don't remember. I don't think there was.
Mr. Rice. Isn't that usual ?
Mr. Souers. Sometimes he is there and sometimes he is not. I don't
know ■
Mr. Rice. In any event at this time you do not think there was I
Mr. Souers. I could not say, but I know that I had the $75.
Mr. Rice. $7,500.
Mr. Souers. $7,500. and the county counsel somehow or another got
together with Mr. Dunker and turned over 50 percent to the county.
Mr. Rice. To the county commissioners?
Mr. Souers. Sure.
Mr. Rice. It is difficult for me to understand what the county com-
missioners had to do with the money that seemed to be in the court.
Mr. Souers. The prosecution of the violation was over. In other
words, the men had been tried, found guilty, and paid $1,000 apiece
plus the costs, and $7,500 was then — between Mr. Michaelson and Mr.
Dunker it was agreed upon the county would keep half the money
and they would keep half the money, so they didn't file any suit
against me in the county.
Mr. Rice. So they split the money and $3,500 went back?
Mr. Souers. I couldn't say. All I knew is 50 percent went to the
county.
Mr. Rice. That went on into the commissioners' treasury?
Mr. Souers. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And the other money went back to Goldberg?
Mr. Souers. Evidently it did. It went to Mr. Dunker. He got it.
Mr. Rice. I asked you if you knew George Goldberg.
Mr. Souers. Xo, sir: I don't know him other than to go down to
his place.
Mr. Rice. At Manhattan ?
Mr. Souers. Manhattan Beach. It was 48. and watch his place.
Mr. Rice. What kind of a place does he have there?
Mr. Souers. He has a dwelling there. He lives there.
Mr. Rice. You say you watched his place ?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir. There was a man by the name of Mr. Book,
I believe.
Mr. Rice. What I
Mr. Souers. Book, that was the man's name, and he told me about
it. Another thing. I put Goldberg's telephone — I put an Officer Street
in a telephone exchange in Severn Park after I heard about there is
a possible chance they might be doing ;i little gambling there. He
knew the operator and he listened in there 2 or 3 days.
I went down with Mr. Book, that was right before the Mahlen-
Kline case, and watched his place, and that car pulled down the road
and the man said, "That is Mr. George Goldberg and his wife," and
192 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
they got out of the car and went in the house, and then I left to come
away from there.
Mr. Kick. Did you ever go into Goldberg's residence there?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Don't know what business he is in?
.Mr. Souers. Only what I read in the paper. I read in the paper
where he bad an athletic club in Baltimore City or some kind of a club.
Ali-. Rice. When the officers go out on a complaint which is entered
on your log, they come back and make a written report, do they not?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And what is done with that report? Does that come to
you for review ?
Mr. Souers. From 1949 in this department we are speaking of, I
should try to make it a little clear I guess, I never even had a secretary,
in 1949, the last part of '49. Then is when I started the order in
regard to reports coming into the office and being approved before they
were filed. Up until that time I never approved them.
.Mr. Rice. Starting in 1949 you approved them?
Mr. Squers. That is right, when I got a secretary.
Mr. Rice. What was done with the report before that?
Mr. Souers. The man for instance working at the desk would put
it in the index book and put it in the report folder.
Mr. Rice. As a matter of fact the reports were put on your desk
every morning, were they not?
Mr. Souers. No, sir, not until 1949.
Mr. Rice. Before that you never saw the reports?
Mr. Souers. Only if I would go behind the desk and pick the book
up and look at them. They have a book about that night for each dif-
ferent type of report like miscellaneous or break — B and E, whatever
it might be. I would go look at the report.
In 1949 I was able to get a secretary in the department. I had all
reports that come through the office and she would retype them and
correct the spelling when necessary, and then I would check and she
would file them.
M r. Kick. All right, sir, do you own your own home?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any mortgage against it?
Mi. Sot ers. Not right now.
Mr. Rice. Where is that located?
Mi-. Souers. Ferndale.
Mr. Rice. How much is that worth ?
Mr. Souers. How much do I value it at now ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Souiks. I built that in L928. I built it myself. It cost me
s:;..'inii. I would say now probably twelve, fifteen thousand. I built
one litt le house on
Mr. Rice. Let US take it a. little easy. The house yon live in now,
do you o\\ n that jointly with your wife?
Mr. Soi ERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And then' is nothing against that \
Mr. Souers. Not right now. I am just going back to borrow $8,000,
when yon people called for my paper.
Mr. Rice. What other real property do you own?
Mr. Sot ers. 1 have a store across the street that I built.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 193
Mr. Rice. That is in Ferndale?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. When did you build that?
Mr. Souers. I started in '46.
Mr. Rice. What is the address of that?
Mi-. Souers. That is 1 Annapolis Road.
Mr. Rick. Do you own that outright?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. As an individual?
Mr. Souers. My wife and I.
Mr. Rice. Does that have anything against it?
Mr. Souers. Xo, sir, not now.
Mr. Rice. What is that, a store?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And you have a lease on that ?
Mr. Souers. No, I don't have any lease on it. I rent it to these
people.
Mr. Rice. Who rents it?
Mr. Souers. People by the name of Lee.
Mr. Rice. What sort of a store do they have?
Mr. Souers. He has a bakeshop there.
Mr. Rice. A bakeshop?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What do they pay?
Mr. Souers. Two hundred dollars.
Mr. Rice. And they get the whole building?
Mr. Souers. Xo, sir, just a store.
Mr. Rice. Is there any other income from it?
Mr. Souers. Upstairs is $40 and $45.
Mr. Rice. Are they rooms?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Two hundred a month and you get $40 from one room
and $45 from the other, is that right ?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What did it cost you to build that?
Mr. Souers. A little less than $10,000.
Mr. Rice. And that was in 1946?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir. I built that myself. I built it nighttime.
Mr. Rice. You contracted or you did your own work ?
Mr. Souers. I did my own work.
Mr. Rice. Had there ever been a mortgage against that?
Mr. Souers. I mortgaged my home first for $5,000 and I started
that. I had some money and I borrowed $8,000 on it and had a mort-
gage for $13,000 on both places.
Mr. Rice. Then you have since paid off the mortgage ?
Mr. Souers. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What else do you own '.
Mr. Souers. The only thing I own other than that is a lot behind
that hooked on to that store. It is 40 feet wide and 60 feet deep.
Mr. Rice. When did you acquire that '.
Mr. Souers. I think I bought that in '48 because I didn't have any
right of way back of that store. It is 40 feet wide and 60 feet deep.
Mr. Rice. How much did you pay for that?
194 ORGANIZED CRIME EN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Souers. It was either $445 or $500, one of the two. Don't
you have my papers here? It is all there, the receipts are all there.
Mi. Kick. Do you own any other property.
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about an automobile ?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mi-. Rice. What sort of an automobile do you have?
Mr. Souers. I have a Buick.
Mr. Rice. What year?
Mr. Souers. '50.
Mr. Kick. Where did you buy that?
Mr. Souers. Annapolis Buick.
Mr. Rice. Is that paid for?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir; paid for now, bought it on 18 months pay-
ments.
Mr. Rice. What bank accounts do you have?
Mr. Souers. I have a bank account, I did have one — you have my
books. As a matter of fact I was going to ask you to give me my one
book back.
Mr. Rice. What bank accounts do you have ?
Mr. Souers. I have a bank account in the Citizens Savings Bank.
Mr. Rice. What was that?
Mr. Souers. Citizens Savings Bank.
Mr. Rice. Citizens Savings ? Where is that located ?
Mr. Souers. Baltimore.
.Mr. Rice. Is that a checking account?
Mr. Souers. No, sir ; a savings account.
Mr. Rice. Is that in your name?
Mr. Souers. My name and my wife.
Mr. Rice. What is the approximate balance in that?
Mr. Souers. I am not sure but I think it is $600. Isn't that my
folder there? I mean my folder is just like that. It has all the
books right in it.
Mr. Rice. Have you turned over your records ?
Mr. Souers. Oh, yes; I turned over everything. Mr. Farrell has
it. I turned it over to him, went over everything with him.
Mr. Rice. What other bank accounts do you have?
Mr. Souers. I don't have any other. I did have one at the Ferndale
Building and Loan Association.
Mr. Rice. That was a deposit account?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir; Mr. Farrell has that, too.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any checking accounts?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that ?
Mr. Souers. Sure about it; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever had a checking account?
Mr. Souers. I haven't had a checking account in my name I should
think since '20. 1 believe.
Mr. Rice. Where was that?
Mr. Souers. Glen Burnie.
Mr. Rice. In the Glen Burnie Bank?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any bonds?
Mr. Souers. I think I have about $500 worth. He has that, too.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 195
Mr. Rice. I am asking you. I would appreciate it if you would
help us a little on it.
Mr. Souers. I certainly will, sir.
Mr. Rice. You have about $500 in bonds ?
Mr. Souers. That is bonds; not cash.
Mr. Rice. Where are those bonds kept?
Mr. Souers. Where are they kept? Home.
Mr. Rice. Have you cashed them?
Mr. Souers. Noj sir. Mr. Farrell has them. No, he don't. He
has just the serial numbers, that's right.
Mr. Rice. Where are the bonds themselves?
Mr. Souers. Home.
Mr. Rice. At home in your house ?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have a safe there?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Strong box?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How long have you had that?
Mr. Souers. Oh, I have had that I guess since 1930.
Mr. Rice. Do you remember where you bought it ?
Mr. Souers. No, I don't.
Mr. Rice. Does it have a combination on it ?
Mr. Souers. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What else do you have in there besides the bonds?
Mr. Souers. I don't have anything in there. You have it all.
Mr. Rice. No, we do not have things from your safe, I do not
think.
Mr. Souers. All my papers that Mr. Farrell has is what I had in
there.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any cash in there ?
Mr. Souers. No ; I have no cash in there, maybe 60 or 70 dollars.
Mr. Rice. Do you own any stocks ?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Any other bonds?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Any securities?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any other assets ?
Mr. Souers. None whatsoever.
Mr. Rice. Do you owe any money ?
Mr. Souers. Do I owe any money ?
Mr. Rice. Do you owe any money ?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any accounts jointly with your wife?
Mr. Souers. Do I have any joint accounts?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Souers. Yes, I just told you.
Mr. Rice. Which one was that that is joint?
Mr. Souers. The one which I think has $600 in it.
Mr. Rice. The Citizens Savings?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir ; and down the association.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any other accounts jointly with your wife
or does she have any individual accounts ?
196 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Sot krs. \o, sir; she don't. She never had an individual ac-
count .
Mr. Rice. Has she ever worked?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And does she make a joint income-tax return with you?
Mr. Souers. When I first got married — that is about 30 years ago —
she worked about the first 5 years and she hasn't worked sinee.
Mr. Rice. I □ I lie past 5 or 6 years you have made joint returns?
Mr. Souers. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Your income includes anything she might have?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any bank account outside of the State of
Maryland?
Mr. Si u i.ks. No, sir; never had one in my life.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any safe deposit boxes?
Mi-. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You are sure you do not have any other account any-
where?
Mr. Souers. No; I don't know of any other account. Those are
the only ones I have.
Mr. Rice. Do you have an account in the Brooklyn Curtis Bank,
division of the Annapolis Bank & Trust?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You do not have any account there ?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Never have had an account there?
Mr. Souers. No, sir; not that I remember. It seems like I had a
dollar in the Brooklyn Bank back in 1925 I believe. I have a dollar
left in that account, in 1925.
Mr. Rice. Is that the one you were talking about before?
Mr. Souers. What do you mean before?
Mr. Rice. You said you had one in 1929. That was a checking
account.
Mi-. Souers. That was in Glen Burnie.
Mr. Rice. Glen Burnie \
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is your wife's name?
Mr. Souers. Viola.
Mr. Rick. And you had a dollar in the Annapolis Bank & Trust?
Mr. Souers. Brooklyn bank — I had a bankbook there, it's been, oh,
in 1920-something. I believe I have still got a dollar in it.
Mr. Rice. In any event, you haven't had any bank transactions in
the last 20 years there?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you know another man by the name of Souers?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir ; I know quite a few of them.
Mr. Rick. J low about John F. Souers?
Mr. Souers. John F. ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Souers. No. I know a Dr. Sawers, I know a Frank Sawers.
Mr. Rici . A re they related to you?
Mr. Souers. No, sir; none whatsoever. That is S-a-w-e-r-s.
Mr. Rice. You do not know of any other Souers?
Mr. Souers. No; I do not know any.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 197
Mr. Rice. Johnny Mattox, do you know him?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Buss King?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about Patty Clark?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Don't know him?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Sam Morgan?
Mr. Souers. Who?
Mr. Rice. Sam Morgan?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Never had any transactions with any of those people?
Mr. Souers. Positively not.
Mr. Rice. Ever receive any money from Lieutenant "Wade?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Sure about that?
Mr. Souers. Positive.
Mr. Rice. How about Flannery, ever receive any money from him?
Mr. Souers. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Souers, it seems that Anne Arundel County
was pretty wide open under your administration. What is the trouble ?
Mr. Souers. Senator Kefauver, I couldn't say that truthfully, for
this particular reason. Could I go into that and tell you about this
police department, what I did have there and what has been going
on, so you would understand?
Senator Kefauver. We want to give you a chance to say anything
you want to about this.
Mr. Souers. What I have in mind is this, Senator. You take for
granted we have a police department that would be similar to the
State, Baltimore city, or Washington. We don't. We never did.
When I started the police department, we had two men. That is the
way I started, and two men working for instance 12 hours at night
time, one man at the desk, three men working a shift, two men in the
car and one man in the station house, that is all.
Senator Kefauver. Beginning in 1950 you had 50 of them.
Mr. Souers. That is right, and I think I have still got one of the
papers in my pocket here from 1950, if you would like to look at it.
It will give you some idea. Is it all right to show it to you ?
Senator Kefauver. Yes, sure.
Mr. Souers. I brought them over. I did a very, very good job in
the last couple of years with the men I have now. As a matter of fact
I am proud of what I did over there.
Senator Kefauver. Are these copies that you want to file for the
record ?
Mr. Souers. Yes, if you would like to have them you can have
them, sir.
Senator Kefauver. They will be filed, not copied in the record, just
made exhibits. Now this White House place was running?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Knotty Pine Lodge was apparently running
and Barbara Farms. Why didn't you close them up I
Mr. Souers. You are talking about the Barbara Farms, I knew noth-
ing about that. The other places were closed up. Those places never
198 ORGANIZED CRIME EST ENTERSTATE COMMERCE
run continuously. They run and slop. Run for 6 or 7 months and
there wouldn't be anybody around for 6 or 7 months, and then some-
body would start to operate again. With the police I thought I was
doing a good job.
Senator Knr.u yi.i:. Did you check up, do 3-011 know who ran the
places?
Mr. Souers. Yes sir, at that time.
Senator Kefattver. It is hard to conceive of these places operating
without the police knowing about it. If you knew about it, it seems
like you ought to have closed them up.
Mr. Souers. I think, Senator, if you knew what we had to do there
with the amount of men we had — since that time if you notice, that
we have taken care of that county good other than the one place the
State knocked off over there, and I was tickled to death they come in
and did it.
Senator Kefatjver. They only come in when the local police do not
do their job, do they not?
Mr. Souers. I don't know it that way. They have the same police
powers I have. They enforce laws at all times regardless of where
they are at.
Senator Kefauver. Were you removed or what happened to you out
there ?
Mr. Souers. They dismissed me and I was reinstated.
Senator Kefauver. Are you the chief now ?
Mr. Souers. No sir, I am retired.
Senator Kefauver. Who dismissed you?
Mr. Souers. The police board.
Senator Kefauver. And you got reinstated. When did you get
reinstated?
Mr. Souers. Truthfully I couldn't answer that. It was about 15
days after that.
Senator Kefauver. Did you appeal ?
Mr. Souers. I took an appeal and I was reinstated because it was
testified at the hearing that everything had been read. You two
officers were right there.
Senator Kefauver. He testified to what now ?
Mr. Souers. He testified to hearsay evidence. He started off in his
report that way. The commissioner reinstated me. I resigned because
here not long ago you read in the paper oH miles outside of Glen
Burnie there was a place knocked off, a still, by Federal agents, and it
was supposed to be one of the biggest stills in the State of Maryland,
and I know if 1 had been there at that time I would have been sus-
pended again, and that is why 1 really got out.
1 had some WJ0 years' service. I can retire on 20 years' service, and I
thought well, 1 lid ter get away from here because if something happens
t hey are going to suspend me again, and 1 thought it was unfair because
1 was suspended for the State police knocking the place otf-
I gave them credit for the job they did and I think it is a good
thing for them to come into any county and at any time they see
fit. It helps keep everything straight.
I recommended to our legislature here in 1951, the first part with
the grand jury and the county commission, the State's attorney, that
we should have a local law pertaining to wire service, and they asked
me what I meant, and I told them this which I thought was good.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 199
I said I know we can't outlaw to kill the service, but we can get a
law which would be a benefit to everybody and that would be that
anybody could get service pertaining to Muzak or whatever it was,
would first have to file an application for a permit and the law would
permit any law-enforcement officers to inspect that particular place
that asked for a permit anytime, day or not. That way you would
alwa}^s know when service was going in and where and the officer
could go in the same as a beer license and inspect a place. I tried
to get that through this year before I come out of the police depart-
ment. I couldn't get that through.
Senator Kefauver. How old are you now ?
Mr. Souers. Fifty years old. I am almost 51.
Senator Kefauver. Anything else, Mr. Bice?
Mr. Rice. Yes. We have looked over some of your records, Mr.
Souers, and see that you evidently built this store in 19
Mr. Souers. Started in *16.
Mr. Rice. And you had a lien on that, did you not?
Mr. Souers. Eight thousand dollars on that ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Eight-thousand-dollar loan?
Mr. Souers. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And that was to the building and loan?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
M'r. Rice. When did you pay off that loan?
Mr. Souers. This year.
Mr. Rice. How did you pay it off?
Mr. Souers. Paid the balance out on it.
Mr. Rice. Had you been paying it in monthly installments?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Was it an amortizing loan or did you pay some large
curtails?
Mr. Souers. I paid so much a month, and what I had there I put in
the free-share book, and when I took the money out for my income
tax, I think it was $1,200, I had enough left in the free share to pay
off the balance of the mortgage, and paid it off.
Mr. Rice. I do not follow that.
Mr. Souers. I put some money in the free-share book in it.
Mr. Rice. In the free-share book.
Mr. Souers. That is the savings account in the association, and I
accumulated enough money there from my income tax, I paid my
income tax and what I had left I paid off my mortgage.
Mr. Rice. How much was that ? You had a $8,000 mortgage.
Mr. Souers. That is right.
Mr. Rice. In 1048 you were paying interest of $508.36?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. That was interest on that mortgage, was it not?
Mr. Souers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Now that was then pretty near $8,000. You had not made
any curtails then, had you?
Mr. Souers. What do you mean?
Mr. Rice. You had not made any big payments. You just made
monthly payments.
Mr. Souers. Yes, I made one big payment there. If I had that
book I could show you better. It is in the book.
Mr. Rice. What book is this you are talking about?
200 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Soi'kks. Mv building association books. Mr. Farrell has
Mi-. Rice'. Thai is at the building and loan?
.Mr. Souers. That is right, he lias them.
Mr. Rice. That is what you paid out, not what 3Tou had?
Mr. Souers. What I paid out and paid in. lie lias got both the
mortgage books I pay on and he has got the free share book, the one
1 save on.
Mr. Rice. The one you save on, where did you get the moiie}' that
you saved \
Mr. Souers. From my income and my rent.
Mr. Rice. From your salary and your rent?
Mr. Souers. That is right.
Mr. Rut;. Yon put it in there and then you tinned it over and paid
on your building?
Mr. Souers. That is right.
Mr. Rice. I see here that you paid interest of $508.36 in 1948 and
in 1949 your interest was only $212.77, indicating that you reduced
your mortgage by about 60 percent in that year.
Mr. Soukrs. Yes, that is right. I don't know whether that is just
the dates or not. If I had the books I could show you. I paid $1,500
plus three hundred some dollars rent money and my salary. In
other words, my daughter sold her house in Arundel for $10,000,
$10,500 I think it was, and she give to us back on the mortgage $1,500,
and she paid by that check that she got.
Mr. Rice. She owed you some money?
Mr. Souers. No; she helped us out on a mortgage.
Mr. Rice. Oh, she helped you out ?
Mr. Souers. Yes, she took the check she got, the same check that
she got from the house and paid it into the association on the mortgage.
Mr. Rice. So that you used that money that you <?-ot from her
and helped to curtain the mortgage?
Mr. Souers. I can get you the number of the check.
Senator Kefauver. All right, that is all.
Anything else?
Mr. Rice. No.
Senator Kefauver. Thank you very much, Mr. Souers.
Mr. Rice. If we have any of your records, Mr. Souers, we will get
in touch with you.
Mr. Souers. I would like to get my one book.
Senator Kefauver. Let us get his book back to him as quickly as
possible.
Mr. Jackson. Call at our office, room 900, HOLC Building, and we
will return those to you this evening.
Mr. Rice. For the purpose of the record, Mr. Chairman, I would
like to have Mr. Smith of the staff tell the results of his investigation
at the hospital in Baltimore in connection with the record of the
shooting.
Senator Kefauver. All right, Mr. Smith.
Mr. Smith. Records of the South Baltimore General Hospital show
that one Sidney Rosen of 1309 North Charles Street, Baltimore, Md.,
was admitted on May 6, 1945, at 4 a. m. suffering a diagnosis gunshot
wound of right hip and left hand. This subject was assigned room
No. 202 in the hospital and remained there 6 weeks.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 201
Birthplace of subject was Russia. Religion, Hebrew. Father, Hy-
man Rosen. Mother, Raechel Rosen. Nearest kin, Hyman Frankel,
110 Jackson Place. Surgeon. Dr. James Herbert Wilkerson of 1200
St. Paul Street. This doctor died 1910.
Bullet was removed from right buttock on May 8, 1915. Hyman
Frankel brought subject to hospital; stated shooting was accidental.
Subsequent investigation showed 1309 North Charles Street to be
an incorrect address.
(Whereupon, at 1 : 50 a. m.s the hearing was adjourned.)
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 8, 1951
United States Senate,
Subcommittee of the Special Committee To Investigate
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce,
Washington, D. C.
The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10: 15 a. m., in
room 457, Senate Office Building, Senator Estes Kefauver presiding.
Present: Senators O'Conor (chairman), Kefauver (presiding),
Hunt, and Wiley.
Also present: Richard G. Moser, chief counsel; Downey Rice, asso-
ciate counsel ; and Wallace Reidt and Nicholas John Stathis, assistant
counsel.
The Chairman. The hearing will please come to order.
We desire to announce that pursuant to the resolution of the full
committee the Chair is authorized to designate a subcommittee to con-
duct this hearing and pursuant to that authorization the Chair has
designated a subcommittee consisting of the Senator from Tennessee,
Mr. Kefauver; the Senator from Wisconsin, Mr. Wiley; the Senator
from Wyoming, Mr. Hunt, and the Senator from Maryland, with the
usual provision that any one of the members of the subcommittee
will constitute a quorum.
The Chair will also request the able Senator from Tennessee, Mr.
Kefauver, to act as presiding officer at this session, which incidentally
we may have to change the location of in order to have hearings at the
Capitol because of another committee that is meeting today at which
Senator Hunt and I have to be in attendance, and then tomorrow when
the call of the calendar has been scheduled as well as a very important
vote in the Senate, at which Senator Kefauver will have a very im-
portant part, that will be announced as we go along.
Senator Kefauver, will you be good enough to preside.
Senator Kefauver. Who is our first witness, Mr. Rice ?
Mr. Rice. Mr. Leonard J. Matusky.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Matusky, will you come around. Mr. Ma-
tusky, do you solemnly swear the testimony you give the committee
will be the whole truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Matusky. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LEONARD J. MATUSKY, BALTIMORE, MD., ACCOM-
PANIED BY MORRIS T. SIEGEL, ATTORNEY, BALTIMORE, MD.
Senator Kefauver. Now, Mr. Matusky, you are represented by
counsel, are you not?
Mr. Siegel. Morris T. Siegel, sir.
203
204 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Siegel, will you give your address, please.
Mr. Siegel. 110 East Lexington Street, Baltimore 2, Md.
Senator Kefauver. You are Leonard J. Matusky?
Mr. Matisky. That is right, sir.
Senator Kki.w \kr. Mr. Matusky, for the purpose of the record,
what is your home address?
Mr. Matusky. 1553 Sheffield Road.
Senator Kefauver. And what is your business address?
Mr. Matusky. '210 East Redwood.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Matusky, if you can, we would appreciate it
if you would raise your voice a little, since we have difficulty in
hearing.
Mr. Downey Rice is counsel today, I believe, in questioning the
witnesses. Will you proceed, Mr. Rice.
Mr. Rick. What is your business, Mr. Matusky?
Mr. Matusky. General news and sports and wire music service.
Mr. Rice. What is the name of your organization ?
Mr. Matusky. World-Wide News and Music Service, Inc.
Mr. Rice. World-Wide News and Music?
Mr. Matusky. Incorporated.
Mr. Rice. Where is the business office?
Mr. Matusky. 210 East Redwood.
Mr. Rice. Baltimore?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Is that a corporation?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Who are the corporate officers?
Mr. Matusky. Why, I think I gave that information.
Senator Kefauver. All right, Mr. Matusky, just tell us who they
are.
Mr. Matusky. I am the president of the company.
Mr. Rice. You are the president?
Mr. Matusky. That is right, sir.
Mr. Rice. Yes. sir.
Mr. Matusky. My wife is secretary and treasurer.
Mr. Rue. I didn't hear the name.
Mr. Matusky. My wife.
Mr. Rice. What is her name?
Mr. Matusky. Gertrude E., secretary and treasurer, and the vice
president is Sanford Niles.
Mr. Rice. Sanford Niles?
Mr. M \n sky. That is right, N-i-1-e-s.
Mi-. Kick. Where does Mr. Niles live?
Mr. Matusky. Why. he is from Chicago. I don't know where he is
at now.
Mr. Rice, lie is from Chicago?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
.Mr. Rice. And yon say you don't know where he is now?
Mr. M\i i sky. No. I don't.
Mr. Rice, lie is an officer of your company?
Mr. Matusky. Thai is right.
Mr. Rice. How do you gel hold of him?
Mi-. Matusky. I can'1 get hold of him now. He left sometime in
March, approximately around the second week in March, and I talked
to him once since t hen.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 205
Mr. Kick. Where did you talk to him?
Mr. Matusky. In Baltimore. He made a trip to Baltimore. That
is, I would say, 6 or 7 weeks ago.
Mr. Rice. Has he disappeared ?
Mr. Matusky. I don't know whether he has or not. He hasn't
gotten in touch with me.
Mr. Rice. Do you consider him a missing person ?
Mr. Matusky. Not necessarily. Probably if I tried I could get in
touch with him.
Mr. Rice. How would you do that?
Mr. Matusky. I would call his home. He was living with his
mother.
Mr. Rice. Where was that?
Mr. Matusky. That is in Chicago. I don't have the address
with me.
Mr. Rice. You have that at your office?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. You would call him there?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. You say he is vice president?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And also a stockholder?
Mr. Matusky. That is right ; he owns the stock.
Mr. Rice. Is he on a salary \
Senator Kefauver. Does he own all the stock?
Mr. Matusky. That is right, sir ; all the stock is in his name.
Mr. Rice. He owns all the stock?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And it is his company, then ?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And he is from Chicago ?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. How does it happen that this man from Chicago — did he
set the company up ?
Mr. Matusky. No ; I set the company up, in 1939, 1 believe.
Mr. Rice. You set it up?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. How did you become connected with Mr. Niles?
Mr. Matusky. Why, I originally became connected with a man
named Mclnerney.
Mr. Rick. What is his first name?
Mr. Matusky. John I). I think that is his middle initial.
Mr. Rice. Where is he from \
Mr. Matusky. I believe he is originally from Chicago, but he has
been around Baltimore, I believe, about 15 years.
Mr. Rice. All right, sir. That is John Mclnerney \
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. You were connected with him. Then what happened?
Mr. Matusky. He sold his stock to Niles. I do not know just what
he paid for it or anything. As far as I know the stock was sold to
Niles.
Mr. Rice. And you were president all the time?
Mr. Matusky. That is right, sir.
8527T — 51 — pt. 17 14
206 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
.Mr. Kick. Would you say you were front man for them?
Mr. Matisky. No; I was not a front man for them.
Mr. Rice. How do you account for your being president? You
do not own stock and these fellows are from Chicago. It does not
seem very reasonable, you being a Baltimore man.
Mr. Matusky. Well, I do not know what you mean by not seeming
to be reasonable. What do you mean ?
Mr. Rice. How did you get connected with these fellows from
Chicago to do business in Baltimore?
Mr. Matusky. Mclnerney, like I told you, he has been in Balti-
more the past 15 years.
Mr. Rice. What is he doing? What is his business?
Mr. Matusky. As far as I know, he was connected with Howard
Sports.
Mr. Rice. He is connected with Howard Sports?
Mr. Matusky. That is right,
Mr. Rice. That is a wire service?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. I see. How did you get connected with them?
Mr. Matusky. Well, I was — he come in and wanted to buy into
the business, and we made an agreement and that is how that
happened.
Air. Rice. Did you already have a business \
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What business did you have?
Mr. Matusky. The same business as operating now, World-Wide
News.
Mr. Rice. Who backed you in that before Mclnerney came in?
Mr. Matusky., No one backed me in that.
Mr. Rice. He came in and wanted to buy in and you sold him?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. It was your own business before that?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Did he muscle in ?
Mr. Matusky. No ; I would not say he muscled in ; no.
Mr. Rice. Why did you want to sell?
Mr. Matusky. Well, for one reason, I wanted to have more time
to get away and have someone around that could take care of the
business and give me a chance to get away.
Mr. Rick. He came in and took care of it?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Rice. He is a man from Chicago?
Mr. Matusky. No; he has been in Baltimore, I think, for about
IT) years. I may be wrong, but I know he has been here a little while,
lie i^ originally from Chicago.
Mr. Rick. He came in and took care of it for a while and you had
nothing to do, I take it, with the transaction under which Mr. Niles
took- over \
Mr. Matisky. No, sir.
Mr. Rick. But it was agreeable with you?
Mr. Matt sky. Thai is right.
Mr. Rice. Mr. Niles does not spend any time around there, does he?
Mr. Matusky. He doesn't now.
Mr. Kick. Did he ever?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 207
Mr. Matuskt. Yes; he did, up until the first or second week in
March he was in every day.
Mr. Rice. What did he do?
Mr. Matttsky. Well, he acted as vice president and, ot course, own-
ing the stock issued orders.
Mr. Rice. What sort of compensation does Mr. Niles get or has
he received in the past? .
Mr Matuskt. Well, he hasn't received anything since March.
Mr. Rice. What happened in March? What did he have before
March?
Mr. Matuskt. Prior to that he received $125 a week.
Mr. Rice. Straight salary?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right.
Mr. Rice. For his job doing what?
Mr. Matuskt. As vice president.
Mr. Rice. What did he do?
Mr. Matuskt. He managed the office.
Mr. Rice. He talked to the customers?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And he sold the service ?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right, wherever he could, he did.
Mr. Rice. Made the decisions and did the hiring and firing ?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What happened in March?
Mr. Matuskt. Well, the business was not making any money and
only one reason I can account for him leaving is because business was
not making any monev and he just left.
Mr. Rice. Business has been pretty good generally over the country.
What happened in March so that the business was not making money ?
Mr. Matuskt. That is something that I could not answer. The
business just dropped off in March, got to a point where it wasn't
making any money.
Mr. Rice. You did not analyze the reason why it wasn't ?
Mr. Matuskt. I would say the publicity we have been getting
hasn't been good publicity and, of course, that would be one reason.
Mr. Rice. Did that have anything to do with your appearance
before a grand jury in March?
Mr. Matuskt. I wouldn't know whether it has anything to do.
That would probably have something to do with it.
Mr. Rice. What did Mr. Niles do when he left ? Did he say "Take
me off the payroll. I am leaving" ?
Mr. Matuskt. I do not believe I was around when he left. I
think he just drew out $400 and left town.
Mr. Rice. He just took over?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And if you wanted to get hold of him you might find
him ?
Mr. Matusky. I might try his home.
Mr. Rice. Was there a time when you had an officer by the name
of Roscoe Odle ?
Mr. Matusky. That is right. He was prior to Melnerney. Roscoe
Odle owned, I think, 45 or 50 percent of the stock.
Mr. Rice. Who was Odle ? O-d-l-e, isn't it ?
Mr. Matusky. I think it is O-d-l-e.
208 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. Who is he?
Mr. Matisky. A> far as I know, he is a trackman. He gathers
information from the differenl rare tracks.
Mr. Rice. Tel] us how Roscoe Odle go! into the company?
Mr. Matusky. Well, he go! in the same as Mclnerney. He come
into t he company and asked mc if 1 wanted someone to help me out in
t he business, which, of course. I wanted someone to help me out in the
business, with the understanding that he would spend some time and
I could get away from the business.
Mr. Kick. Yes.
Mr. Matusky. That is how Odle got into the business. That was
somel ime
Mr. Kick. When was it Odle came in?
Mr. Matisky. Well, I cannot give you that exactly. Approxi-
mately 19 17 somet ime.
Mr. Rick. About 11) 17 Odle came in?
Mr. Matisky. That is right.
Mr. Rick. He went on a salary basis then?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What did he get in the way of compensation?
Mr. Matusky. I do not recall. I think it was $125, but I am not
sure.
Mr. Rice. What were his duties?
Mr. Matusky'. Well, his duties were to take and in one way to
protect the news for me.
Mr. Rice. Do what?
Mr. Matisky. To protect thenews for me.
Mr. Rice. Protect the news?
Mr. Matusky. Right.
Mr. Rice. What does that mean ?
Air. Matusky*. He was a trackman, and in some cases where we
would be having wire trouble I could always call him wherever he
might be and get that information.
Mr. Rice. What do you mean "he was a trackman"?
Mr. Matusky. He gathered the news from the different race tracks.
Mr. Rick. For you?
Mr. Matusky. Not for me; no. For, as far as I know, Howard.
Mr. Rice. Let me see if i have that straight now. Did you say
he was gathering news from the tracks? You mean he was a "wig-
wag man'* \
Mr. Matusky. I do not know just how he does it, but he was one
of the men; 1 think he was in charge of the crew.
Mr. Rick. In charge of the track crew that goes around to the race
tracks and uses a telescope or something to look at the tote board?
Mr. M vi i sky. Right.
Mr. Rice. lie was in charge of the crew?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Rice, lie was working for Howard Sports?
Mr. Matusky. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. On their payroll?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. At the same time he was on your payroll?
Mr. M vi i rSKY. Thai is right.
Mr. Rick. What did he do for you?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 209
Mr. Matusky. Well, some time he — he spent some time around ; he
did not necessarily go out to the race track every day; he had his
crew, and he would be around, I would say, around town more than
he would be around to the race tracks.
Mr. Rice. You see the situation you have given us. You have here
a man who is, on the one hand, working for Howard Sports, which
is a wire service outfit
Mr. Matusky. That is right,
Mr. Rice. Ostensibly they sold the wire service to you.
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. You had no connection with Howard Sports?
Mr. Matusky. No; I didn't at no time.
Mr. Ric.:. Yon had a separate entity?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Xo connection with Howard Sports?
Mr. Matusky". That is right.
Mr. Rice. Roscoe Odle, who was the trackman gathering the in-
formation at the tracks, was working for them and also working for
yon. It is not understandable what he was doing for you.
Mr. Matusky. Well, my understanding when Roscoe bought into
my company, that he was going to take and resign as far as Howard
is concerned, but he never did.
Mr. Rice. He kept right on working?
Mr. Matusky. He kept right on working; he kept right on working
for both companies. In fact. I asked him at one time, "I don't be-
lieve that is right. You working for two companies. I would much
rather you got out one way or the other."
Mr. Rice. You say he bought stock in the company ?
Mr. Matusky. Yes, sir.
Mr. Race. Who did he buy it from?
Mr. Matusky. Bought it from me.
Mr. Rice. Bought it from you ?
Mr. Matusky'. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Wasn't that the time Mclnerney had it?
Mr. Matusky. Xo ; Mclnerney came in a year later.
Mr. Rice. Then Mclnerney came along.
Mr. Matusky^. That is right.
Mr. Rice. How long was Odle with the company ?
Mr. Matusky*. I would say approximately a year; maybe a little
more.
Mr. Rice. Where is Odle now ?
Mr. Matusky*. Where he lives I do not know.
Mr. Rice. How did he come to be separated from the company?
Mr. Matusky*. He is not separated.
Mr. Rice. He is still associated ?
Mr. Matusky. That is right. When we made the agreement with
Mclnerney, we made a deal whereby I was to get so much a week
and Odle was to get so much a week.
Mr. Rice. Yes. Does he still draw that?
Mr. Matusky. He is not now*. There is no money for him to draw ;
there is no money for me to draw.
Mr. Rice. As a matter of fact, then, he has never become disassoci-
ated with the company ?
Mr. Matusky. Xo ; he hasn't.
210 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. He still owns stock, does he not?
Mr. Matt sky. No; the stock, he does not own stock. Ihe stock
is owned by N'des.
Mr. Kick. I could not hear what became of the stock. _
Mr. Matusky. The stock was issued, right now it is issued in the
name of Niles.
Mr. Kick. In the name of Niles?
Mr. Matusky. That is right,
Mr. Kick. Who owns it?
Mr Matusky. That is right, with the notation that stock cannot
be disposed of until this agreement we made with Mclnerney, the
original agreement for 20 years
Mr. Rice. What became of Odle's interest?
Mr. Matusky. Well, he is still in as far as the interest, the stock
cannot be disposed of; he still has part of the company.
Mr. Rice. Is he holding it for Niles?
Mr. Matusky. Does what?
Mr. Rice. Is he holding it for Niles?
Mr. Matusky. No ; he is not,
Mr. Rice. It is his own stock?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. He can't sell it?
Mr. Matusky. Until 20 years he cannot sell the stock.
Mr. Rice. Twenty years ?
Mr. Matusky. Twenty years.
Mr. Rice. Where is Odle?
Mr. Matusky. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Rice. When was the last time you saw him?
Mr. Matusky. I would say it was some time in May.
Mr. Rice. What year \
Mr. Matusky. This year.
Mr. Rice. May 1951. Where did you see him?
Mr. Matusky. He came into my office.
Mr. Rice. In Baltimore ?
Mr. Matusky. That is right. Just stopped in.
Mr. Rice. Where does Odle live? What is his home town?
Mr. Matusky. Baltimore is his home town.
Mr. Kick. Baltimore?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Do you know where he lives there ?
Mr. Matusky. I don't know. I do have the address in the office,
but I do not know exactly. I have been there many times. It is in
Lincoln Heights— not Lincoln Heights— close to St. Mary's Industrial
School.
Mr. Rick. In that neighborhood.
I low would yon get hold of Odle if you wanted to get in touch
with him ?
Mr. Matusky. I would have to call his home and find out if his
wife knew where he was. I would try to get hold of him.
Mr. Kick. Do you think yon could do that?
Mr. Mai i 8KY. No; I do not think so.
Mr. Rice. Von do not think that you could?
Mr. Matusky. I have called his wife, not recently, and she told me
she does not know where he is.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 211
Mr. Eice. His wife does not know \
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. He has disappeared, too /
Mr. Matusky. Apparently he has, from what I read.
Mr. Rice. For the record, Mr. Chairman, the committee has been
seeking this stockholder of the company since September and lias been
unsuccessful in locating him.
If you do get any information about him, we would appreciate
knowing about it.
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Senator Kefauver. Is that Mr. Niles ?
Mr. Rice. Roscoe Odle.
Senator Kefauver. What is the last that was heard of him?
Mr. Rice. The Senator would like to know what was the last you
heard of him ?
Mr. Matusky. He was in the office in May and last week he called
me from Asbury Park.
Senator Kefauver. From where ?
Mr. Matusky. Asbury Park, N. J., by phone. I think at that time
he told me he would be in town, I think it was on Wednesday or Tues-
day, and he told me he would be in town the next day or so, but he
never showed up.
Mr. Rice. Did he call you collect ?
Mr. Matusky. No ; the only way I knew it was Asbury Park, one
of the men, the operator, came in and said, "It is Asbury Park,'' and
one of my men answered the phone and said, "Roscoe is on the phone
and wants to talk to you."
Mr. Rice. What did he have to say ?
Mr. Matusky. Nothing. Just asked me about business conditions
and, of course, they aren't good, and I told him that, and he was to
come in and discuss what to do about the business.
Mr. Rice. He would come in and discuss it ?
Mr. Matusky. That is what he told me he was going to do.
Mr. Rice. When was he taken off the payroll ?
Senator Wiley. Excuse me.
Senator Kefauver. Senator Wiley.
Senator Wiley. Did you know at that time that the committee was
looking for him ?
Mr. Matusky. No. The first I knew that the committee was look-
ing for him was when I read in the paper; that was just a few days
ago. He had not talked to the committee — that was, I would say,
last week, Wednesday or Thursday. In fact, I am sure it was Wednes-
day when he called me. It was Wednesday of last week, and I knew
nothing about the committee looking for him at that time.
Senator Wiley. Is it your impression that he is deliberately keep-
ing out of the way ?
Mr. Matusky. Well, I do not know.
Senator Wiley. Do you know, if that is true, why he is keeping out
of the way?
Mr. Matusky. I would not know what his reason is. Apparently
he must be if his wife does not know where he is at ; I imagine you con-
tacted his wife, and if she does not know where he is at
Senator Wiley. Have you any idea as to why he refuses to be
subpenaed ?
212 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Matuskt. No, sir: I do not.
Senator Wiley. Haven't von the slightest suspicion?
Mr. M ATi sky. No.
Senator Wiley. Thank you.
Mr. Rice. When was the last time he received any money from
World-wide News and Music?
Mr. M vi i be v. That is something I would not know. It was some-
time last j^ear.
Mr. Rice. You are talking about 1950?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right; sometime in 1950.
Mr. Rice. And at that time was he drawing a weekly compensation?
Mr. Matusky. A weekly salary of $200.
Mr. Rice. $200?
Mr. Matuskt. That isright.
Mr. Kick. Now what caused the termination of those payments?
Mr. Matuskt. The company was not making any money.
Mr. Rice. The company started not making any money?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right.
Mr. Kick. What month?
Mr. Matusky. Well, 1 mean it was sometime, I would say— 1 am
only guessing, I do not have my records here ; 1 was not asked to bring
ain't hing over, and I would be'guessing, I do not know.
Mr. Rice. You are the president of the company and managing and
running it? .,
Mr. Matuskt. I would not say, I have since Xdes left, but 1 would
not say I managed the company or anything like that. I could not
do it but by agreement, so long as my agreement was fulfilled.
Mr. Rice. We won't labor that point. When was the last time he
got money and what was the reason for the terminal ion?
Mr. Matuskt. It was sometime in 1950, and we were not making
enough money to pay him.
Mr. Kick. Could you fix the month as to the fall or summer?
Mr. M ah sky. I would say it would be somewhere in July or
August : could be June — I do not know.
Mr. Rice. That you started— that you stopped making money; is
that right '.
Mr. M \i i sky. Right.
Mr. Kick. Who made the decision to cut him oil' that payroll?
Mr. Matuskt. In that particular case Xilcs made the decision.
Mr. Rice. Xilcs made the decision?
Mr. Matuskt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kick. When would you say the last payment of any sort-
dividend, salary or compensation, expense money — was made to Odle?
Mr. M \n SKT. About the same time.
Mr. Rice. About the same time?
Mr. M \n skt. Right.
Mr. Kick, lie ha- not drawn any! hing since?
Mr. M \i i BKT. Thai IS right.
Mr. Rice. Did he complain about that ?
Mi-. Matuskt. Well. 1 was not the one who told him he wasn't
going to receive any money. SO 1 do not know whether he complained,
I, in I think heat thai time was getting money from Howard.
Mr. Km ,:. A Little while ago you said that the company was not
makina- any money in March L951, and now you put it back in the
summer of I !>.">(). Which was it?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 213
Mr. M.vn sky. Well, in March the company did not make enough
money to pay me or Niles or anyone else. In June it was enough money
to pay me and Niles and not enough to pay Odle.
Mr. Rige. Yon say your company sells what '.
Mr. Mail sky. Wired music.
Mr. Kick. Wired music?
Mr. Matusky. Wired music, nice results, baseball, anything in the
sporting line. They operate 7 days' a week; they did also operate that
during the racing black-out; lost no accounts. We operated; I think
we had a black-out approximately 6 or 7 months, and we did not close
up. We operated all during thai time.
Mr. Kick. What is a racing black-out?
Mr. Matusky. I think it was Mr. Byrnes at that time who ordered
all the race tracks or asked them to close, and all the race tracks closed
so there was no racing for that period.
Mr. Rice. During the war?
Mr. Matusky. That is right. But we continued to operate and did
not lose any accounts.
Mr. Rice. Where do you get your racing news ?
Mr. Matusky. From the Howard Sports Daily.
Mr. Rice. From Howard Sports Daily?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Rice. In Baltimore?
Mr. Matusky. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. With whom do you do business in Howard Sports ?
Mr. Matusky. With Bilson — Harry Bilson.
Mr. Rice. Harry Bilson, president?
Mr. Matusky. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Did you know that Mclnerney, who was an officer of your
company, is also an officer of Howard Sports?
Mr. Matusky. At that time I did not; no.
Mr. Rice. Do you know it now ?
Mr. Matusky. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Mclnerney never told you that ?
Mr. Matusky. He told me after the deal was made that he was get-
ting paid also from Howard, but I did not know it prior to that. I
knew he worked for Howard, but I did not know that after he made the
deal
Mr. Rice. What are your contract arrangements with Howard
Sports ? How much do you pay for the service ?
Mr. Matusky. At present I am not paying anything for the serv-
ice.
Mr. Rice. When did you pay some ; what were your arrangements ?
Mr. Matusky. The lowest rate was a hundred dollars ; and the high-
est rate was $300.
Mr. Rice. Per what?
Mr. Matusky. Per week.
Mr. Rice. The lowest rate you paid was one hundred a week?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And the highest was three hundred?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Rice. How do you fix those rates that you pay Howard Sports ?
Do you have a contract on that ?
214 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Matusky. We have nothing written— no contract, no agree-
ment.
Mr. Rice. No agreement; nothing written?
Mr. Matusky. No. As a matter of fact, at the time Mclnerney
made the deal we paid them just a hundred dollars and $10 taxes—
$110. Then later after this deal was made with Mclnerney, then the
News was raised, or they asked for more money ; I do not know what
happened. Anyway, I was told they wanted more money, and I did
not care who got the money as long as I got whatever my agreement
called for ; as long as I got my money.
Mr. Rice. After the rate went up, did it drop?
Mr. Matusky. I don't understand the question.
Mr. Rice. The rate went from a hundred to three hundred?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Then dropped down again ?
Mr. Matusky. Not all at once. I would say it went from maybe two
hundred and then two fifty and then three hundred.
Mr. Rice. Who negotiates those payments?
Mr. Matusky. Well, I do not know. I was told
Mi-. Rick. You didn't?
Mr. Matusky. I didn't: no.
Mr. Rice. Going back, say, to January 1951, what were you paying?
Mr. Matusky. I do not recall whether we were paying anything
then. We may have, but I am not sure.
Mr. Rice. When did you stop paying them?
Mr. Matt sky. That is something I cannot tell you.
Mr. Rick. Are you still getting service?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rick. And you are not paying for it?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rtck. How do you account for it?
Mr. Matusky. Only one reason. I had been buying news from
them for the past 12 years, and they probably know as well as every-
one else I have not been making money and I am not able to pay
for it.
Mr. Rice. How long has that been going on?
Mr. Matusky. I could not tell the exact date. I would have to
have books.
Mr. Rick. Within 6 months?
Mr. Matusky. Within 6 months?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Matusky. It could have been; I know sometime last year at
the time we cut Roscoe on\ I think we stopped paying them for a
while; we stopped paying Howard. Then again we started paying
Howard a mom h or two later.
Mr. Kick. Things got better?
Mr. Matusky. That is right ; business was better.
Mr. Rkk. Started paying again?
Mr. Matusky. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rick. You stopped paying when?
Mr. M ATi sky. That is something I could not tell you.
Mr. Rick. Was it around Christmastime?
Mr. Matctsky. It could have been.
Mr. Rice. During the t iine they were running in Florida I
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 215
Mr. Matuskt. Could have been about that time.
Mr. Rice. Let's be more exact on that. Was it when they were
running in Florida?
Mr. Matuskt. I can't be exact. I can't give you within 2 or 3
months, unless I have my books — if I have my books I can give you
the exact date.
Mr. Rice. Would you say it was 6 months ago you stopped paying?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Rice. At least 6 months you have been getting racing news from
Howard and not paying for it ?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any agreement about making that up to them
when you begin making money again?
Mr. Matuskt. I have no agreement about making it up to them,
no, sir.
Mr. Rice. That is just gratuitous on their part ; they gave it to you
free ?
Mr. Matuskt. Xot necessarily. I think they expect to be paid if
we get to a point we make money again, I think they expect to get
paid.
Mr. Rice. But you have no agreement on that '.
Mr. Matuskt. Xo. sir, I have not.
Mr. Rice. Who do you sell the service to '.
Mr. Matuskt. I think you have the list of the accounts. They are
just about the same as what I gave you.
Mr. Rice. What sort of people are they ? Who are they ?
Mr. Matuskt. People interested in our service.
Mr. Rice. Who are they ? Who is one of them ?
Mr. Matuskt. I would not know them by name. What I have, 1
am not using any more private lines. What I am keeping, like I tes-
tified last time here, is enough to keep my amplifiers in the different
exchanges.
Mr. Rice. For the benefit of the chairman, what do you mean by
amplifiers I What do you do I How do you work it I You get service
over Western Union ?
Mr. Matuskt. Over a network. We have no control other than
call-ins.
Our man broadcasts direct from the exchange, C. & P. Telephone
Co. ; their master exchange in Baltimore is Plaza. That is relayed to
the different exchanges in the city.
Mr. Rice. Over the telephone wires?
Mr. Matuskt. Yes, sir ; over the telephone wires.
Mr. Rice. Your man gets the information from Howard ?
Mr. Matuskt. And he repeats it.
Mr. Rice. He broadcasts to a microphone ?
Mr. Matuskt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. That goes to the telephone company office?
Mr. Matuskt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. That is fanned out \
Mr. Matuskt. That is reamplified out to these different exchanges.
Mr. Rice. Who tells the telephone company where to "fan it out"?
Mr. Matuskt. Whenever we receive an account, I get the order, or
whoever is around, we call the telephone company; give them the
order, the location, the man's name and, in turn, the telephone com-
216 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
pany sends an inspector our. They inspect the location. If they
think it is a proper place to have that type of service, they install it.
If they don't they refuse to install it, which happened quite a few
times.
Mr. Rice. They hook up a wire and give a loud speaker at the end 01
it at your instruction?
Mi . M atisky. Yes. sir.
Mr. Kick. Where do these negotiations take place with the custo-
mers '. In the office \
Mr. M ATi sky. At times, and at times they call in, call in by tele-
phone and give you the information that is necessary, the name of the
tavern, the man's name and address.
Mr. Rice. In the case of a man who walks in and negotiates with
you. do you have a contract with him \
Mr. Matusky. No, sir.
Mr. Kick. What arrangements do you make ?
Mr. Matusky. We just tell him what the service is, the price of the
service; the order is issued to the telephone company, if they have
facilities, or it is a proper place, the line is installed.
Mr. Kice. Now, about the price of the service, how do you charge
them, by the week ?
M r. Matusky. By the week ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And is the price the same to everyone?
Mr. Matusky. The price is the same — not to everyone, no. We have
some accounts that do not commercialize, for instance, that use it for
their own benefit. Their price is very low. Most of those people are
away, arc horse owners, away out of town, and they probably do not
use the service over 2 or 3 months in that whole year.
In their case their rate is lots lower than anyone that commercializes.
Mr. Rice. They pay by t he week \
Mr. Matusky. No.
Mr. Kick. What is the average they pay for the week ?
Mr. Matusky. Anyone who commercializes in public places aver-
ages $40 or $50 a week.
Mr. Rick. $40 or $50 a week?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rick. How many customers do you have now '.
Mr. Matusky. Right now I have five.
Mr. Rick. You have five \
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And can you name one of those ?
Mr. Matusky. 1 have nothing but call-ins. and they call in with the
number. They give me a number. They call in for the service, and
they want to know if they can buy the service. Of course we tell them
yes, and tell them how much the service will cost them and the names
would nol mean anything that they give me, anyway. They give a
name. "Charlie," or "George," and we assign a number. They call in
and say, "This is 5," and they get the result and they hang up.
Mr. Rice. So the set-up now is this: A voice calls you up on the tele-
phone and says,"] would like to have the service.'* you say. "Fine.*'
Mr. Matusky. Or they may come in.
Mr. Kick. -How much will it be?" And you say, "$40"?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Kice. You say. -Who are you ?" He says, "I am Joe Doakes.''
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 217
You say, "All right, Doakes. Your number will be 31"?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Kick. Now, then, how do you get the service to the man?
Mr. Matusky. He calls in by telephone and he does not stay in.
He just calls in and in lots of cases I have some accounts who probably
do not call in over there of four times a day.
Mr. Rice. Doakes will call in and say, "I am 31 calling in. What
is the answer on the Third?"
Mr. Matusky. And we give it to him.
Mr. Rice. He calls direct to the office?
Mr. Matusky. That is right .
Mr. Rice. Doesn't go through the telephone company?
Mr. Matusky. That is right." tin' only thing we are piping through
the telephone company is wired music.
Mr. Rice. Doakes comes up for the racing services, he is just a
number to you. no identification on him?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. How does he pay off? How does he pay for it?
Mr. Matusky. Normally he comes up and pays for the service.
Mr. Rice. He comes up to the office?
Mr. Matusky. That is right; or sends someone up. It is not al-
ways the same person, but someone with the number.
Mr. Rice. "I am paying for account No. 31." ?
Mr. Matusky. Forty-five or thirty-one, or whatever it is.
Mr. Rice. What are your account numbers? Can you remember
one of those?
Mr. Matusky. I can remember one. Forty-five. We have 45.
Mr. Rice. Forty-five is active now ?
Mr. Matusky. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. But you do not know who 45 is ?
Mr. Matusky. No, sir, I do not.
Mr. Rice. Don't have the vaguest idea ?
Mr. Matusky. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Could be a policeman, could it not?
Mr. Matusky. It could be. If it was a policeman I would sell him
news the same as I would anyone else. In fact, I think, according to
my public service commission order I am forced to sell news to anyone
that wants news.
Mr. Rice. So if the man had a criminal record a yard long, it would
not make any difference to you, would it?
Mr. Matusky. If I knew it, it would make a lot of difference to me,
because I would not sell him.
Mr. Rice. I thought you said you had to sell it to anyone who
wanted it.
Mr. Matusky. Not if he had a criminal record.
Mr. Rick. Does a criminal record preclude a man from taking it (
Mr. Matusky. It specifies, I think, in my public service commission
order that anyone who has ever been convicted, or something — 1 do
not know just how it reads, that was the reason that was inserted in
the court order that the telephone company woud inspect all accounts.
and we have to abide by their decision.
Mr. Rick. Do you ask them any questions, when they call up. about,
whether thev have a criminal record?
218 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Matu6KY. No, sir. I do not. I do not believe they would
tell me.
Mr. Kick. It does not make any difference to you, does it?
Mr. Matisky. Actually they would tell me if I would ask them.
Mr. Rice. Back about a month ago we asked you for a list of your
customers, didn't we?
Mr. Matisky. That is right,
Mr. Rick. And you gave us a list, and I see here that we have about
22 active accounts as of May 1950. These were ticker accounts or
wire accounts.
Mr. Matisky. That is right.
Mr. Kick. You don't have tickers, you have a wire?
Mr. Matusky. That is right. We have a wire, a private line, tin-
same as any telephone: other than having a receiver on the end, it is
loud speaker on the end.
Mr. Rick. You had 22 back in May of 1950 and you had 10 call-in
accounts.
Mr. Matusky. Well, if that is the paper I sent in, that is correct.
Mr. Rkk. At the same time, in May 1950, we asked the telephone
company to give us a list of the customers that you had, and they
gave us a list of — 36, rather, which is a considerable discrepancy be-
tween what, you furnished and what the telephone company furnished.
Mr. Matusky. That is right, Those customers at that time were
inactive. We have quite a few of them. I mean, the reports would
show where at times a customer would say. "Disconnect me,*' for
maybe a month or so. In lots of cases they would not be off a month.
I have had cases I kept a line operating in that location that I would
disconnect our speaker, which would mean they would not be getting
any service — disconnect the service in the locality but not cancel with
the telephone company, due to the fact, in some cases, when you want
that same account back, I have had occasions where a man would dis-
connect service this week and next week he calls back and wants the
same service, That would take, through the regular routine of the
telephone company, normally 2 weeks to get that back, and that par-
ticular line I would say — my private lines do not average over $7 or
$8 a month as a whole, not counting the amplifiers, which I still have
to have.
Mr. Rice. Let's get back to the thing that we are talking about.
You gave a list of 22 and the telephone company had 30. They had
11 more. You say these 14 were inactive lines ?
Mr. Matusky. Right, in active lines. They were operating as far as
the telephone company was concerned, but they were not active as far
as we were concerned, because they asked to be disconnected.
Mr. Kick. Was the impulse going out over the line?
Mr. Matusky. Yes, the impulse, they could pick it up if they knew
and had another speaker, they could pick it up.
Mr. Rice. Who took the speaker off?
Mr. Matusky. Our man would take our speaker out when that man
would disconnect his service. If they have someone who would know-
how to hook that hack, they could be getting service, but in most of
those cases I would have a man go out and I would go out personally
to see thai service was not being used.
Mr. Rice. In other woids. check them with regard to putting an-
other speaker on '.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 219
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. You were keeping the line active ?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Who paid for it?
Mr. Matusky. The company paid for it.
Mr. Rice. How much would they charge you to keep an active line ?
Mr. Matusky. As I said a while ago, some of the lines were as low
as $1.20 a month, but the average would be around $8 a month. I think
the average — but some lines are $1.20, some are $2.40, some $3.60.
Mr. Rice. How much did you say you paid for each one '.
Mr. Matusky. I would say approximately $8.
Mr. Rice. $8 a week?
Mr. Matusky. No, a month.
Mr. Rice. A month ?
Mr. Matusky. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. You were paying $8 a month for 14 lines to keep them
active, but they were not using them ?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Would it be possible they had been raided around that
time and thought they had better pull off for a while ?
Mr. Matusky. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Rice. Did that happen?
Mr. Matusky. When they are raided, the telephone company dis-
connects, they notify me they are disconnecting that line.
Mr. Mosek. Why don't yon have it disconnected at the telephone
company instead of at the shop?
Mr. Matusky. When you do that, you lose time. In other words,
if I had the telephone company disconnect that and he reordered that
line, it would go through the same procedure ; they would send a man
to inspect the place, and that would take 2 or 3 weeks. The line costs
me $8 approximately, a lot of them are $2.40 or $3.60 a month and it is
a lot cheaper.
Mr. Mosek. You disconnect the speaker at that end so you can turn
it on and off easily.
Mr. Matusky. At the location.
Mr. Mosek. Why is that? So you can turn it off and on easily?
Mr. Matusky. They would have no speaker and no way to get the
service.
Mr. Moser. They could supply their own service.
Mr. Matusky. If they know how to build one. It would have to
be an amplifier.
Mr. Moser. Why do you continue this expense every month of*
continuing those open lines when they are not bein^ used \ Why not
have them disconnected at the telephone company?
Mr. Matusky. It would take 2 weeks, that is a revenue of $80, 2
weeks for the telephone company to connect, and installation charges
of approximately $5, and 2 weeks alone, I would be waiting to get
this customer back on by the telephone company, I could keep him on
for a year, and it would not cost me any more.
Mr. Mosek. You expect the customer to come back on again?
Mr. Matusky. In most cases.
Mr. Moser. Why did you say they discontinued?
Mr. Matusky. I have no reason to know why. They call me and
ask me to disconnect the service.
220 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Moser. And stop payment?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mi-. Moser. Do they discontinue often?
Mr. Matusky. Quite often. I think at times we have had as many
as 25 temporary disconnects.
Mr. Moser. Twenty -five at once ?
Mr. Matusky. Yes. sir.
Mr. Moser. That is a pretty big percentage of your business?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Moser. Why do they suddenly disconnect? Would it be a
raid going on \
Mr. Matusky. They just tell me they do not want the service during
the winter months, no baseball.
Mr. Kick. Perhaps I can straighten it out. The records show that
"World-Wide News & Music was serving, among others, back in 1949,
places at 20 Eas1 Cross Street under the name of E. Jenkins Cafeteria.
They have a speaker.
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
M r. Rice. And also a place at 220 East Cross Street under the name
of Walter Lowman. According to the police records of Baltimore,
the place at 20 East Cross Street was raided on July 8, 1949, and 220
Easl Cross Street was raided December 24, 1949. Notwithstanding
those raids, in the list of active accounts which Mr. Matusky furnished
us after that, in May of 1950 and even up as late as January 1951, both
Jenkins and Lowman at 20 East Cross and 220 East Cross were again
receiving service.
So that I think it would be safe to say that it was because, and
probably during that raid time that the speaker was out and the service
still on, and that was the reason for leaving the wire in.
M r. Matusky. That was not the reason. Those places were not con-
vict ed. The Jenkins place was not convicted, and to my knowledge,
the place at 220 East Cross Street was never raided.
Mr. Rice. Now, then, we have testimony before the committee taken
on July 2, 1951, by a man by the name of Edward Reitz in executive
session. Here is what Reitz had to say:
He said t hat he operated a small horse book at 220 East Cross Street
and that he had the telegraphic news service there for which he paid
World-Wide News & Music $40 a week.
He was raided after 1 month, after he began his operations, and he
was lined a thousand dollars.
Mr. Matusky. That was not Lowman. That was this other person.
If he worked for Lowman and anything Like that happened — but
Reitz, to my knowledge, I was never notified by the police department
or the telephone company. They usually are notified when there is a
raid. I am not notifiedj but the telephone company is notified, and
the usual procedure is, in that Jenkins case, that line was disconnected
until his case — I think the telephone company disconnected that line
temporarily, when he
Mr. Rice. Reitz did not tell you he had been raided and why he was
Stopping t he $40 a week \
Mr. Matusky. Thai is right. I knew nothing about Reitz. I knew
about Lowman in there. 1 knew nothing about Reitz being raided.
This is t lie first time I heard of the place being raided.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 221
Mr. Rice. This is the first time you heard about it?
Mr. Mattjsky. The first time I have ever heard that 220 Cross
Street was raided.
Mr. Rice. You knew there was a time that was dormant and then
you started being paid again for it?
Mr. Mattjsky. What year was that?
I would have to look at my books and tell you whether that person
was on the dates you are telling me. I don't know if he was receiving
service at that time. He could have called in.
Mr. Rice. He could have called in. In any event, you do have
situations like that where they go off for a time, and come back on?
Mr. Matusky. Not in raids because, like in this particular case, I
think the telephone company records will show they called me up about
the Jenkins Tavern, said they were temporarily disconnecting that
line.
Mr. Rice. Who called you up?
Mr. Matusky. Assistant commercial manager of the telephone
company, I do not recall who, disconnected that line. After the case
the man was acquitted and the line was restored and his telephone was
restored.
Mr. Rice. This man was not acquitted. He paid a fine. Here are
about four others of your customers who were raided. L. Trotta, 3901
Mount Pleasant Avenue, June 11, 1949; the Oldham Pleasure Club,
513 South Oldham Street, raided October 28, 1949 ; the Young Men's
Social Club, 2920 Hudson Street, raided — date not given ; J. H. Hilde-
brand, at 249 West Chase Street, raided July 27, 1949.
Mr. Matusky. I was never advised of the raids and usually the
police department advises the telephone company, and I was never
advised and I had no knowledge they were raided.
Mr. Rice. Now, of your 36 customers that you had a year ago you
say you have none left ?
Mr. Matusky. I am operating five private lines now.
Mr. Rice. You do not have any that are getting the wire music?
Mr. Matusky. They are getting the wire music, but not getting any
race results.
Mr. Rice. Not getting any race results?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. The only ones getting the race results are calling in ?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. How do you account for the cessation of business?
Mr. Matusky. The only reason is the bad publicity.
Mr. Rice. What sort of publicity?
Mr. Matusky. The publicity with me being before the grand jury,
and ever since this committee has been in, all we hear is horse racing
and that is something I give less than anything. I give less than an
hour's horse racing out of 14 hours' broadcasting. We do not give
nothing but the race results. The radio gives that. The radio is
beating us by 10 minutes right now ; beating us on most of the results.
Mr. Rice. Does the radio give the prerace run-downs on scratches,
odds, and so forth.
Mr. Matusky. Don't give that but they give the results at 10 min-
utes and sometimes 10 minutes before we give it out.
Mr. Rice. Do you blame the radio now for hurting your business?
85277 — 51 — pt. 17 15
222 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Matusky. That has a lot to do with it. All of a sudden the radio
has speeded up and breaking records, and even announced they will
break a record to give race results.
Mr. Rice. They will stop a record?
Mr. Matusky. That is right. And they are beating us as much as
20 minutes. For instance, just last week 1 walked in the broadcasting
room and heard them give a result 7 minutes after the race was over,
1 think a Chicago result. The man made his announcement that he
knows he is not supposed to give it out for 10 minutes, but "as long as
I am on here, it won't hurt to give this one out."
Mr. Rice. How much does your telephone run a month, the average
month '.
Mr. Matusky. Well, right now my telephone bill is down about
$350, but it was running around $700 or $800 a month.
Mr. Rice. It has been running seven or eight hundred a month?
.Mr. Matusky. I would say approximately that. I think it was less
than that.
The Chairman. Mr. Matusky, at the peak what would have been
the largest amount you had been running?
Mr. Matusky. Of the telephone bill, I would say, Senator, $800 the
peak.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Mr. Rice. Do you still have the same equipment in your place as
vdii had when you were paying that?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. I think for the record, Mr. Chairman, it is indicated that
the service the World-Wide News has is one individual message busi-
ness line, 33 auxiliary lines, 3 extension stations, 5 lamp indicators, 16,
21-A lamp indicators, a head receiver, 9 pick-ups, 3 station holding
keys, 3 line holds, 2 buttons, and 3 buzzers, and the telephone company
advises us they could serve as many as 200 call-ins during an after-
noon's time, or 200 customers. But you have never had that many ?
Mr. Matusky. No ; never had that many. As a matter of fact, that
wasn't my business. That is Howard's business. In fact, if I had any
amount of call-ins, I don't believe Howard would sell me the News.
When you asked me awhile ago, I said, yes, I have disconnected in
the past month 14 telephones. We have 20 telephones.
Mr. Rice. The list I read was a fair statement of what you did
have?
Mr. Matusky. That is an exact statement.
.Mr. Rice. You cut 11 off?
Mr.MATUSKY. Cut lloff just in the past few weeks.
Mr. Rice. Now you are in the office most every day. aren't you?
Mr. M.\ ii sky. Most every day.
Mr. Rice. You handle the telephones sometimes?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Rice. I see where there are some telephone calls made to Ruby
Relberg in t lie Bronx, X. Y. Who is she \
Mr. Matusky. A former man that worked for me, and he was
calling his mother. She is very ill. a bad heart: he worked for me.
Mr. Rice. Calling his mother?
Mr. Matusky. Thai is probably his mother.
Mr. Ru i . You make some calls to Francis al the Washington Whole-
sale Drug Exchange.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 223
Mr. Matusky. I think he is manager of the Washington Wholesale
Drug.
Mr. Rice. What transactions do you have with him ?
Mr. Matusky. Nothing other than I talk to him in regard to brok-
erage business that I am going into, drug brokerage business, about
getting five or six accounts and handling them as a broker.
Mr. Rice. You are thinking of going into the drug brokerage
business?
Mr. Matusky. That is right, representing the manufacturer.
Mr. Rice. Do you know a fellow named Tom Kelly ?
Mr. Matusky. Yes; I know him.
Mr. Rice. He is from Chicago ?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Who is he ?
Mr. Matusky. General manager of Continental News.
Mr. Rice. Continental Press, the big wire service ?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Rice. How do you know him ?
Mr. Matusky. He was from Baltimore, manager of the office where
Bilson is manager.
Mr. Rice. Manager of Howard Sports now ?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What business do you have with Tom Kelly of Chicago ?
Mr. Matusky. Whenever he is around I usually see him.
Mr. Rice. You usually see him, a social call ?
Mr. Matusky. Yes; he lets me know when he is in town, and I see
him, have dinner with him, a couple of drinks.
Mr. Rice. I see several long-distance calls to Tom Kelly in Chicago
charged to your phone. What would that be in connection with?
Mr. Matusky. I do not recall the conversations I had with him.
What dates are they ?
Mr. Rice. You tell us what transaction you had with him in Chi-
cago that necessitated
Mr. Matusky. I do not recall what conversation I had.
Mr. Rice. You called him on February 20, 1951; you called him
January 22, 1951.
Mr. Matusky. I do not recall just what the conversation was.
Mr. Rice. You called him several other times.
Mr. Matusky. I think I have called him even more recently than
that.
Mr. Rice. Is that in connection with the wire-service business?
Mr. Matusky. Not with him. I may have asked him what things
look like and things like that, I mean.
Mr. Rice. Why do you dicker with him? Why do you negotiate
with him? You are buying it from Howard Sports.
Mr. Matusky. Can I talk to my counsel a minute, please?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Senator Kefattver. Mr. Siegel, I just wonder how long you think
your conference will be? If it is going to be of any length we will
have another witness.
Mr. Siegel. Will you give me a few minutes and call another wit-
ness for a matter of a few minutes?
Mr. Rice. It doesn't seem like a difficult question. We are just in-
terested in the business writh Continental.
224 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Siegel. At this time Mr. Matusky cannot recall conversations
he had in L951.
Mr. Rice. Just tell us the business he had with Tom Kelly in gen-
eral terms.
Mr. Matusky. I would like to talk to counsel. I contacted counsel
last Friday ; I had no idea to bring him. I didn't contact him until
7 o'clock and I would like to talk to him if I can.
Senator Kefauyer. Suppose we defer that question a few minutes,
and wo will let you consult your counsel and have you come back.
Let's ask about anything else except what business he had with Tom
Kelly.
We will defer that in order to give you a chance to confer with your
counsel.
Mr. Rice. Let me ask this. Does Mr. Xiles have any connection
with Continental?
Mi-. Matusky. He did prior to coming to Baltimore. He was em-
ployed Iry Continental.
Mr. Rice. What did he do for Continental ?
Mr. Matusky. As far as I know, he was a roadman.
Mr. Rice. What do you mean by that?
Mr. Matusky. Well, they would send him to Baltimore or what-
ever towns they had offices that were buying their news. That was
his job. What he did I have never been with him on any occasion
with Howard or any other office he had to go to.
Mr. Rice. You mean he was sort of inspector ?
Mr. Matusky. Well, I do not know whether that is what you
would call him, or whether he come in and looked to see what was
happening, whether Continental thought they were not paid enough.
I could not answer whether he was an inspector.
Mr. Rice. Whom would he check up on? Whom would he go
to see?
Mr. Matusky. I know he would go to see Howard. He dropped
around to our office.
Mr. Rice. He came around to see World-Wide?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Rice. When you were operating as World-Wide?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. He was with Continental?
.Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Let's see how that works. You were contracting direct-
ly with Howard.
" Mr. Mail sky. That is right, buying news directly from Howard.
Mr. Rice. You had no privity of contract — if you do not under-
stand that, your lawyer will tell you — with Continental, but here
is Continental checking up on you, and you are just a customer.
How do you account for that \
Mr. Matusky. The only way 1 can account for it, he wasn't
the only one. I had several others who came around.
Mr. Rice. Did Scanlon come around?
Mr. Matusky. No. I do not know him.
Mr. Rice. Burns? Who were some of the others who came around?
Mr. M vrrsKY. A fellow named Jaffy and John Gordon. He is
dead now.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 225
Mr. Rick. Gordon came around?
Mr. Matuskt. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Whal would be his conversation when he came around?
Mr. Matuskt. His conversation was to get more money for the
service, told me I was expanding and going into the news business
in a big way, and he was after more money.
Senator Kefauver. That is Niles you are talking about?
Mr. Matuskt. This is Mr. .Tally.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Niles did come around to check up on you
for Continental \
Mr. Matuskt. Xo, he would make a visit to Howard and see Mc-
Inerney.
Senator Kefauver. I thought you said Niles owns stock, all the
stock, of your company.
Mr. Matuskt. Yes ; I had nothing to do with that, Formerly Mc-
Inerney owned the stock, and he disposed of it to Mr. Niles. What
transaction, I do not know anything about it.
Senator Kefauver. Anything else, Mr. Rice?
Mr. Rice. Now, has your recollection been refreshed any about your
business dealings with Tom Kelly?
Senator Kefauver. I am going to allow them to confer about that.
We will not ask about that. Ask them about anything else and let
them have a conference and we will call Mr. Matusky back to testify
about it.
Any questions, Senator O'Conor ?
The Chairman. No questions.
Senator Kefauver. Senator Hunt?
Senator Hunt. Yes ; I would like to ask a few questions.
Would you tell the committee whom you contact when you approach
the telephone people for installation of your service?
Mr. Matusky. Why it would be an extension of 208 I would call,
Lexington 9900, extension 208, and recently, for the past 9 months it
would be two to three different girls who would answer the phone. I
think they have maj'be 20 or 30 assistants. Any of those would be able
to take my order.
Senator Hunt. Have you ever talked to an official of the company
with reference to your business with the telephone company ?
Mr. Matusky. Not since I went to the Public Service Commission;
after we had the black-out I had to go to the Public Service Commis-
sion to get them to install more lines, even though I kept all these lines
during the racing black-out. After the black-out I had more accounts
wanting the service, and they refused to give me any further service
until they had another order from the Public Service Commission.
I have always worked since operating World-Wide with Public
Service Commission orders.
Senator Hunt. Aside from music that is carried over your lines and
all sporting news you do, of course, carry race results.
Mr. Matusky. Race results.
Senator Hunt. Primarily that is the main function of your service ;
is it not ?
Mr. Matuskt. I would not say that it is.
I have about 20 or 30 companies sending us publicity we read over,
and like I say, we do not devote less than an hour's time on racing,
and during the winter I would say it is about 20 to 25 minutes in the
22G ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
whole period of the time we work, because wo do not give that run-
down business and all that All we do is, "They are running," give
the results and the mutuels", the same as radio. We operate from 9
a. m. in the morning to 2 a. m., no racing on Sunday ; we operate from
2 p. m. to 2 a. m. on Sunday.
Senator Hunt. Whether or not that is your principal function,
you do disseminate racing news that is used for the purpose of off-
track hotting; is that right I
Mr. Matusky. Well, we disseminate racing news. Whether it is
used for off-track betting, that is something I do not know.
Senal or 1 1 int. It is used for off-track betting, and that is illegal in
Maryland ; is that right?
Mr. Matusky. Well, I would say it is ; yes, sir.
Senator Hunt. The telephone company can't help but be cognizant
of one use of your service, that for the purposes of disseminating
racing news for the purpose of betting; is that right?
Mr. Matusky. Will you repeat that, please?
Senator Hunt. The telephone company cannot fail to know one
function of your business in the use of their lines.
Mr. Matusky. I wouldn't think they — I think they know that the
racing; in fact, they have to know that we are giving them over the
service.
Senator Hunt. If they did not make their facilities available to you
for that purpose or to any other party for that purpose, then, of course,
the illegal betting off track would be considerably cut down?
Mr. Matusky. Not as long as the radio is operating the way it is
now\ The service is no good at all to anyone who wants to operate,
the way we are getting service now.
Senator Hunt. You could not render your service without the facili-
ties of the telephone ?
Mr. Matusky. No, sir.
Senator Hunt. And the telephone cannot carry your service with-
out knowing what they are carrying?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Senator Hunt. Therefore, am I right in my deduction that the tele-
phone company is aiding and abetting you in your activities ?
Mr. Matusky. No ; I would not think so, because I do not think my
customers use it — naturally, we had some raids, but the percentage
over the period since 1939, I have been operating has been lots less
than any radio station operating; I would say there have been 50
raids of customers to 1 of mine that operates with radios that do not
get any service at all.
Senator Hunt. You operate over the Chesapeake & Potomac Tele-
phone Co. ?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Senator Hunt. They are a subsidiary of the American Telephone &
Telegraph Co.?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Senator Hunt. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Rice?
Mr. Rice. Did you own some property on Thirty-first Street?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What sort of property was that?
Mr. Matusky. Two-story dwelling.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 227
Mr. Rice. A two-story dwelling?
Mr. Matuskt. Yes. sir.
Mr. Kick. What was the address ?
Mr. Matuskt. 2012.
Mr. Rice. 2012.
Mr.MATUSKT. Thirty-first Street East.
Mr. Rice. 2012 East Thirty-first Street. Did you live there ?
Mr. Matuskt. Yes.
Mr. Rice. That was your home?
Mr. Matuskt. Yres.
Mr. Rice. What became of that?
Mr. Matuskt. I sold that property.
Mr. Rice. You sold that property ?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right.
Mr. Rice. To whom did you sell it ?
Mr. Matuskt. A party named Kelly.
Mr. Rice. A party named Kelly ?
Mr. Matuskt. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What sort of party ?
Mr. Matuskt. That is their name, Kelly. I don't know where he
works, as far as I know, but she works for the real-estate men that
had this house. She was employed by the real-estate men.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever see Kelly, himself ?
Mr. Matuskt. The man that bought the house ?
Mr. Rice. Y^es.
Mr. Matuskt. I saw him at the settlement of the house.
Mr. Rice. How was he dressed ?
Mr. Matusky. I do not recall how he was dressed. I think he had
a sport shirt on.
Mr. Rice. He didn't have a uniform on with a badge ?
Mr. Matuskt. No.
Mr. Rice. Y^ou are sure about that ?
Mr. Matuskt. Yes. In fact, Mr. Siegel was at that sale.
Mr. Sieoel. I represented him at the settlement. He had just pur-
chased a home, and he let this one go. There was not a policeman
there, if that is what you mean by uniform.
Mr. Rice. Who was the man ?
Mr. Siegel. Kelly.
Mr. Matuskt. George Kelly.
Mr. Rice. Is he a policeman?
Mr. Matusky. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Rice. You don't know that he isn't?
Mr. Matusky. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Do you know what business you think he is in?
Mr. Matuskt. I do not know. I never met the man until the settle-
ment. It was sold through a real-estate agent, and I met him the
date of settlement. That was the first time I met him and his wife,
and I haven't seen either one of them since.
Mr. Rice. All right, sir. I think we will suspend with this witness
for the moment while he confers with counsel.
Senator Kefauver. Before you leave, let me see if we can get this
matter straightened out.
You have two kinds of service.
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
228 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Kefat \ er. One service for taverns in which you give them
music and also spoil ing events.
Mr. M An skt. Thai is right.
Senator Kefauver. You have another service; that service is
handled through the telephone wires; is that correct?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Senator Kiaui \ er. You have another service where people can call
in and gel results of races.
Mr. Matusky. Thai is right. They call in the same as they do
with a scratch sheet or any news service, call in and ask for a certain
result, and we give it to them.
Senator Kefauver. How many customers of the second service did
you used to have \
Mr. Matuskt. I think the highest we ever had was about 11.
Senator Kefauver. Is that the one where you speak into a micro-
phone and then it is disseminated by several wires through the tele-
phone company?
Mr. Matusky. No, that is the private line service that taverns get
music and baseball scores and everything else. The other customers
call in on a regular telephone, go in the telephone bootth, drop in, call
our number say, "It is No. 45," and may want, or baseball scores,
and we give it to him.
Senator Kefauver. You do not know these customers except by
number?
Mr. Matusky. We do not have any names.
Senator Kefauver. You do send people out to take the loud speakers
out?
Mr. Matusky. Not the people that call in, they do not have loud
speakers.
Senator Kefauver The taverns.
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Senator Kefauver. You do not know who they are ?
Mr. Matusky. We know who they are. They have to give us their
name. Otherwise the 'phone company would not install. We have
to have the person's names and addresses to install the line.
Senator Kefauver. What is your compensation? What has it
been with this sports news?
Mr. Matusky. "When I made the deal with Mclnerney my compen-
sation was $400 a week.
Senator Kefauver. $400 a week?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Senator Kefauver. You got your $400, and that was a permanent
amount, and then
Mr. Matusky. For a 20-year period I was to get that.
Senator Kefauver. And then the amount paid Howard Sports
would go up or down depending on how the business was?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Odle or Mr. Niles would fix that amount,
would they not?
Mr. Matusky. Well, Mr. Odle would not fix it, because he was
around to t he different race tracks most of the time.
Senator Kefauver. Anyway, you got a stated amount?
Mr. Matusky. With the agreement I made.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 229
Senator Kefauver. And any surplus would be paid to Howard
S | torts '.
Mr. Matusky. No, not the surplus. It would be, like I say
Senator Kkfauver. Did von ever pay a dividend on your stock?
Mr. Matusky. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Wha1 would happen to the surplus?
Mr. Matusky. Well, some of the money was Mclnerney taking out
as loans.
Senator Kkfauver. You just got your $400 a week.
Mr. Matusky. I got my $400 and Roscoe Odle got his $200.
Senator Kefauver. The rest went to someone else?
Mr. Matt sky. That is right.
Seantor Kefauver. Either Howard Sports or Mclnerney?
Mr. Matusky. That is right. It would be the employees, of course.
The Chairman. Mr. Matusky, just following that one step further
from this line pursued by Senator Kefauver, is it not true that the
subscribers to the one type of service where you give the music and
service of that nature, that there is interspersed with that the race
results, too '.
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
The Chairman. So that the subscribers who get the music regu-
larly at given times during the program, the music is interrupted and
the race results are given?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
The Chairman. Xow with respect to the type of subscriber, the
call-in type, is it not true that they upon calling in can also be plugged
in and get the other results over the loud speaker, the open line?
Mr. Matusky. No, we do not have that arrangement. In other
words, they do not hang on. They just call in, get the result and hang
right up.
The Chairman. Your practice doesn't include
Mr. Matusky. I do not have a switchboard.
The Chairman. Doesn't include call-in service where the line re-
mains open and they get the results generally from the loud speaker?
Mr. Matusky. No, the only time, for instance, if a person would
come in and we will say they are running that particular race he may
be interested, we would put the phone alongside a loud speaker and
he would hear it.
The Chairman. He stays on the line and if the race is running, he
can hear?
Mr. Matusky. He can hear, that is right.
The Chairman. How long would you say he would stay?
Mr. Matusky. Just for that particular race that he would be in-
terested in.
The Chairman. All right. In other words, there is no arrange-
ment in your particular set-up wherein they stay on indefinitely?
Mr. Matusky. No, I have no arrangement. I do not have the
switchboard. I have, as he read, just telejmones.
Senator Kefauver. You. and Mr. Matusky confer about what your
business is with Mr. Kelly and then when you have conferred and
finished, let me know.
Mr. Siegel. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Rice, who is our next witness?
230 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Is Mr. Louis •OpplemaD here? Mr. Oppleman?
Is Harry Silverman here?
Is Ike Saperstein here?
Are those on the list, Mr. Rice?
Mr. Rice. Efforts have been made to locate Appleman without suc-
cess. We have taken steps to notify everyone who could get in touch
with him.
I understand .Mr. Silverman is under subpena and expected to be
here.
George Goldberg is under subpena and is expected to be here.
Ike Saperstein is under subpena and expected to be here.
Mr. Harrington. I have presented to Senator O'Conor a letter
this morning.
Senator Kefatjver. What is your name ?
Mr. Harrington., It is Barton Harrington, of Baltimore. I am an
attorney.
Senator Kefatjver. You are an attorney in Baltimore?
Mr. Harrington. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefatjver. All right, Mr. Harrington, what is your state-
ment ?
Mr. Harrington. Saperstein has been examined by a doctor and is
ill. I left the letter from the doctor at Senator O'Conor's office this
morning and was told that the Senator would see that the letter was
either brought up here or sent up here when the committee met.
Senator Kefatjver. Do we have the letter from Mr. Saperstein's
doctor? Will some member of the staff get the letter from Senator
O'Conor's office?
What is the matter with Mr. Saperstein?
Mr. Harrington. He was examined by a psychiatrist. The letter
states he is emotionally disturbed at the present time.
Senator Kefatjver. I know this is not in your jurisdiction, because
you are a lawyer, not a psychiatrist.
Mr. Harrington. I did not come over here for the express purpose
of carrying that message. I came here in connection with the ap-
pearance of another witness and left the letter.
Senator Kefatjver. We will get the letter. Do you think he will
be able to testify in a few days?
Mr. Harrington. The letter states, I believe, that he would be
ready in a week or 10 days.
Senator Kefatjver. Who is the gentleman who came up with you,
Mr. Harrington?
Mr. Harrington. He is the cocounsel.
Mr. O'Sullivan. I am cocounsel with Mr. Harrington. Bernard
C. O'Sullivan.
Senator Kefatjver. You are an attorney, too ?
Mr. O'Sullivan. That is right, sir.
Senator Kefatjver. Harry Bilson.
Is Mr. Bilson here?
Mr. Bilson. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Come around, Mr. Bilson.
Mr. Bilson, do you swear the testimony you give the committee will
be the whole truth, so help you God?
Mr. Bilson. I do.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 231
TESTIMONY OF HARRY BILSON, BALTIMORE, MD., ACCOMPANIED
BY JOSEPH G. FINNERTY, ATTORNEY, BALTIMORE, MD.
Senator Kefauver. Sit down, Mr. Bilson.
What is your name, sir?
Mr. Finnerty. J am Joseph G. Finnerty, attorney, from Baltimore.
Senator Kefatjver. You were with us somewhere in Chicago?
Mr. Finnerty. That is right, when the Howard Sports representa-
tive testified just before Christmas, last year.
Senator Kefauver. Who was it who testified ?
Mr. Finnerty. Bilson Ing.
Senator Kefatjver. This is Mr. Bilson?
Mr. Finnerty. This is Mr. Harry Bilson. There is a similarity of
names. They are related.
Senator Kefauver. What is the relationship, Mr. Bilson?
Mr. Bilson. He is my nephew.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Ing is your nephew, Mr. Bilson?
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
Senator Kefauver. All right, Mr. Rice, let's get to the main point.
Mr. Rice. You are president of Howard Sports?
Mr. Bilson. I am the manager and secretary-treasurer.
Mr. Rice. What is the office address of Howard Sports ?
Mr. Bilson. 631 Munsey Building.
Mr. Rice. That is a corporation {
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And you are the secretary-treasurer?
Mr. Bilson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Who is the president, Mr. Bilson?
Mr. Bilson. J. J. Mclnerney.
Mr. Rice. What is his address? Where is he from ?
Mr. Bilson. He has been in Baltimore as long as I can remember.
Mr. Rice. Does he live in Baltimore now ?
Mr. Bilsox. Yes.
Mr. Rice. The other officer is Bilson Ing, who is your nephew?
Mr. Bilsox. That is right.
Mr. Rice. He also lives in Baltimore ?
Mr. Bilson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Before we get started, I think we might talk to botli Mr.
Bilson and Mr. Finnerty in connection with Richard Mangan and
Irving Sherry. Are they here, Mr. Finnerty ?
Mr. Finnerty. We have no information about their whereabouts.
As I told you on the phone yesterday, I am sure Mr. Bilson made
every effort to get the message to those men, not only to be here at 10
o'clock in the morning, but also to contact you at your office by tele-
phone yesterday. I understand that you were unable, Mr. Bilson, to
make contact with these gentlemen, so that their whereabouts, as far as
we are concerned, is completely unknown.
We have made every effort, however, to get the message over to
them.
Mr. Rice. For the record, Mr. Chairman — and correct me if I am
wrong — Mangan and Sherry are both employees of Howard Sports
and have been for a number of years.
Mr. Finnerty. That is right*
232 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. We commenced negotiations at least last Friday with
you to have them appear today as witnesses, with Mr. Bilson, Mr.
Bilson [ng, and subsequently with Mr. Finnerty. So far our efforts
have met with no success insofar as obtaining the appearance of
Mangan or Sherry before t he committee is concerned.
I would like to ask the Chair to make a strong suggestion to Mr.
Bilson to renew his efforts to bring his employees into a situation
where we can talk to them.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Bilson, it -would look like you ought to be
able to get in touch with your employees. See if you cannot get them
in in the morning.
Mr. Bilson. I will do my best.
Senator Kefauver. Will you make a further effort?
Mr. Bilson. I will.
Senator Kefauver. Will you help in this matter, Mr. Finnerty?
Mr. Finnerty. I am certain that Mr. Rice will agree with me that
every effort has been made, as far as I personally am concerned, to get
these gentlemen in. and Mr. Bilson has made every effort to contact
these people. I think you will agree.
Mr. Rice. I don't know about that.
Senator Kefauver. They are his employees, and he should be in con-
tact with his employees. So make an additional effort to have them
here in the morning.
Mr. Fixxerty. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bilson. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Very well, let's get along with Mr. Bilson.
Mr. Rice. How long have you been connected with Howard Sports,
Mr. Bilson.
Mr. Bilsox. Ever since we formed it.
Mr. Rice. What year was that ?
Mr. Bilsox. I cannot tell 3^011, if you pin me down to years. I would
say about 1938-39, to the best of my knowledge.
Mi-. Rice. What was the name of the company then?
Mr. Bilsox. We formed the company, Howard Sports.
Mr. Rice. Howard Sports Corp. or Howard Sports Daily?
Mr. Bilsox. Howard Sports Daily.
Mi-. Rice. Is that the only name of the corporation?
Mr. Bilsox. That is all.
Mr. Rice. Were you also connected with an outfit called Radio
Program Press?
Mr. Bilsox. I was never connected with Radio Program Press.
That was my wire.
Mr. Rtce. How do you mean, "your wire" ?
Mr. Bilson. That was the wire I used to supply the subscribers.
Mr. Rick. I do not understand the difference.
Mr. Bilsox. Well, it was one of our outlets.
Mr. Rick. What was Radio Program Press?
Mi-. Bilsox. Simply a Morse wire.
Mr. Rick. Was it a company?
Mr. Bilsox. No. It was just the name Ave used for the raw wire.
Mr. Rice. Didn't Radio Program Press have offices?
Mr. Bilson. Only us.
Mr. Rice. So it was a corporation; wasn't it?
Mr. Bilson. No, sir; it wasn't.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 233
Mr. Rice. What was it ? A company or a trade name ?
Mr. Bilson. Trade name.
Mr. Rice. Who were the people connected with the trade name?
Mr. Bilsox. The same people as Howard Sports.
Mr. Rice. Why was it necessary to have a trade name for a wire?
Mr. Bilson. I didn't want to confuse it with the Howard Sports ;
that was all.
Mr. Rice. What was the difference between Radio Program Press
and Howard Sports? They were the same people.
Mr. Bilsox. The only difference was that the wire — do we have to
go all through that?
Mr. Finnertt. I am sure Mr. Rice is familiar with this gentleman's
physical condition.
Air. Rice. We will give him every consideration.
I wonder if you will explain what the difference is between Radio
Program Press and Howard Sports. It is not clear at all.
Mr. Bilson. Only the fact that we made application for the wire
under that name, that was all.
Mr. Rice. What wire was that?
Mr. Bilsox. It was a Morse wire.
Mr. Rice. Where did it go?
Mr. Bilsox. It went to Florida at that time.
Mr. Rice. It went down to Florida ?
Mr. Bilsox. That is right.
Mr. Rice. That was Morse wire? Was it primarily to get informa-
tion from the track?
Mr. Bilsox. That wras what it was used for.
Mr. Rice. To get information in?
Mr. Bilsox. That is right.
Mr. Rice. That was the incoming wire. Then, when you sold the
service, it went out of Howard Sports ?
Mr. Bilsox. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Radio Program Press is no longer in business?
Mr. Bilsox. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. I think one of the reasons was that it was outlawed down
in Florida \
Mr. Bilsox. That is right. When the law wrent into effect, that
ended the wire.
Mr. Rice. Why do you think there was a need for a separate outfit
to get the information in?
Mr. Fixnekty. Repeat the question, please.
Mr. Rice. Radio Program Pre^s was a separate entity set up to
obtain the information from the tracks, which was later sold; is that
right?
Mr. Bilsox. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Why did you need a separate outfit? Why didn't you
run it under the name of Howard Sports ?
Mr. Bilsox. Because our wire didn't go that far and we just put
in new wire.
Mr. Rice. Your wire didn't go that far?
Mr. Bilsox. Our regular wire.
Mr. Rice. You could have arranged for it.
Mr. Bilsox. There could have been changes made to answer the
purpose.
234 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. Would you say it was ;i subterfuge to confuse people?
M r. Bilson. No; I would not. There was no subterfuge there at all
whatsoever.
Mr. Rice. Frankly. I do not see why it wouldn't have been simple
for Howard Sports to own the wire and also the same company, why
it was aecessary to have the separate organization.
Mr. Bilson. Well, we did it on account of Western Union primarily.
Mr. Rice. I beg your pardon?
Mr. Bilson. We did it for Western Union primarily.
Mr. Rice. You did it for them?
Mr. Bilson. Yes; not to confuse it with the bill.
Mr. Rice. So you could get a separate billing on it?
Mr. Bilson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. At that time, did Radio Program Press sell information
to Howard Sports?
Mr. Bilson. That was our own wire.
Mr. Rice. You just turned it over?
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. So, in effect, it was Howard Sports getting the infor-
mation.
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. The information having been obtained from the track
by employees of Radio Program Press, your track crew, which got
the information?
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. That information was then sold to Continental?
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. That continued even after Radio Program Press went
out of business. You have always sold information to Continental?
Mr. Bilson. I have; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How much is the daily rate that Continental pays Howard
Sports?
Mr. Bilson. At the present time ?
Mr. Rice. No ; in the past.
Mr. Bilson. They were paying $400 a day. They now pay $300 a
day.
Mr. Rice. They were paying $400 a day and now they are paying
$300 a day?
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. When did that figure change?
Mr. Bilson. I do not know the date.
Mr. Rice. Approximately.
Mr. Bilson. It is 6 or 7 months ago.
Mr. Rice. It dropped to $300 a day? Why was that?
Mr. Bilson. Well, they contacted us and said they could not afford
to pay the *400 any longer.
Mr. Rice. So you said. "All right, we will sell it to you for $300"?
Mr. Bilson. We talked it over and we settled on 300.
Mr. Rice. Whom did you negotiate with?
Mr. Bilson. Walter Lloyd and a man by the name of Harkins.
Mr. Rice. Did you talk to Kelly?
Mr. Bilson. Yes; lots of times.
Mr. Rice. Did you talk to Kelly about that \
Mr. Bilson. I discussed it with him.
ORGANIZED CHIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 235
Mr. Rice. You have no contract with Continental?
Mr. Buson. No, sir.
Mr. Kkk. You have strictly a verbal arrangement with Continental
about how much is going to be paid?
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. They are paying you $300 a day now?
Mr. Bilsox. That is right.
Mr. Rice. You are producing the news which you obtain from the
track. What territory does Howard Sports cover?
Mr. Bilson. You have a copy of the report there that shows it better
than 1 can tell you.
Mr. Rice. Yes. sir. What territory does Howard Sports cover?
You know what States.
Mr. Bilson. Virginia, Maryland, Georgia.
Senator Kefatjver. Delaware?
Mr. Bilson. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about Florida \
Mr. Bilson. We have nothing in Florida.
Mr. Rice. How about Xew Jersey?
Mr. Bilsox. Nothing in New Jersey.
Mr. Rice. Who obtains the information from the New Jersey tracks ?
I think they are running there now.
Mr. Bilsox. Yes; they are. They just opened in Atlantic City
today.
Mr. Rice. Who obtains that information?
Mr. Bilsox. Our track crew.
Mr. Rice. So you operate in New Jersey?
Mr. Fixxerty. Maybe the witness doesn't understand you.
Mr. Rice. He is talking about the selling end. In the selling end,
what States do you sell in?
Senator Kefauver. Let's get what States he collects in. Mr. Bilson,
what States do you collect information from for Continental Press?
Mr. Bilsox. What States do I collect?
Mr. Fixxerty. Gather information.
Senator Kefauver. In what States do you gather information?
Mr. Bilsox. New Jersey, Maryland.
Senator Kefatjver. You used to in Florida ?
Mr. Bilson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. During the past winter }'ou gathered information in
Florida ?
Mr. Bilson. That is right. I wish we could get it again.
Mr. Rice. They are not running in Florida now '.
Mr. Bilson. They will be.
Mr. Rice. What do you propose to do in Florida this winter?
Mr. Bilson. Depend on the radio.
Mr. Rice. You are not going to have a track crew in Florida ?
Mr. Bilson. From all appearances, it is useless.
Mr. Rice. Why?
Mr. Bilson. I don't know why. 1 think you know the answer
to that as good as I do.
Mr. Rice. What is the answer?
Senator Kefatjver. They have a law down there now.
Mr. Fixxerty. I think that is pretty obvious, Mr. Rice.
236 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. You gather from the tracks of New Jersey, Maryland,
and Florida. You sell in what States?
Mr. Bilson. I sell in Georgia, Virginia, and Maryland.
Mr. Rice. Suppose a customer calls up from Pennsylvania and
wants this service.
Mr. Bilsox:. I do not go into Pennsylvania.
Mr. Rice. You do not go into Pennsylvania I
Mr. Bilsox. Xo, sir.
Mr. Rice. Why is that?
Mr. Bilsox. I didn't for 40 years. I never had any customers in
Pennsylvania and there was a man who used to have Pennsylvania, a
man by the name of Goodman in Philadelphia. That was considered
his territory, as much as mine is. as 1 just explained.
Mr. Rice. He has his territory and you have yours?
Mr. Bilsox. He had. I do not think he is in business anj7 more.
Mr. Rice. What yould you tell a customer who called up from
Pennsylvania, called up from Philadelphia and said he would like
to get the news ? What would you tell him ?
Mr. Bilson. We do not have facilities.
Mr. Rice. That wasn't true,
Mr. Bilsox. It would be true in one sense.
Mr. Rice. In one sense?
Mr. Bilsox. We do not have any facilities.
Mr. Rice. You do not have facilities anywhere, but you arrange
for it as soon as you get a customer.
Mr. Bilsox. I never made any application for Pennsylvania.
Mr. Rice. But you could.
Mr. Btlsox*. T guess anybody could.
Mr. Rice. What I am trying to get at is: How do you break down
these territories ?
Senator Kefauver. What is this application business? You never
made an application for Pennsylvania?
Mr. Btlsox. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. You mean to the telephone company?
Mr. Bilsox. Xo. Western Union.
Senator Kefauver. To whom did you make an application?
Mr. Bilsox. Western Union.
Senator Kefauver. If you are going to get the ticker service.
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
Senator Kefauver. If you are going to give them telephone service,
you make telephone application?
Mr. Bilson. Oh, sure. 1 f we were going to give them service there,
but we do not have any lines to the telephone company.
Senator Kefath er. All right, Mr. Rice.
Mr. Rick. Who arranges for the territorial breakdown? You do
not go into Pennsylvania. You wouldn't go into Illinois. In theory,
yon could ask Western Union to set up a ticker in Illinois and serv-
ice it.
Mr. Bilson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Who arranges those territorial allocations?
Mi-. Bilson. Nobody. It is just a custom that I had for a period
of t0 years. I didn'1 see why 1 should starl it.
Mr. Rick. It isa custom. Is it by agreement?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 237
Mr. Bilson. Agreement by myself. Nobody else had anything to
do with it.
Mr. Rice. In the last 5 years have any operators, Metro or Malbro
or Midwest News or Daily Sports News ever handled any customers
in Maryland?
Mr. Bilson. No, they have not, not to my knowledge.
Mr. Rice. But suppose you found out about their servicing one
in Maryland, what would you do?
Mr. Bilson. I do not think I could do anything about it.
Senator Kefauver. What would you try to do?
Mr. Bilson. I would try to stop them if I could. I would tell them
it was my territory, it was my customer. I do not see anything else
I could do.
Senator Kefauver. Whom would you complain to ?
Mr. Bilson. There would be nobody to complain to.
Mr. Rice. Do you think Mr. Kelly might help you with that?
Mi-. Bilson. I do not see how he could. He doesn't enter into it
at all.
Mr. Rice. Kelly was connected with Howard Sports at one time.
Mr. Bilson. When he had the Southern News. That was the only
time.
Mr. Rice. You do not think he could help you out?
Mr. Bilson. I wish he could. I wish I had somebody to help
me out.
Senator Kefauver. Who furnishes Washington, D. C, Mr. Bilson?
Mr. Bilson. I think the radio station WGAY in Silver Spring.
They give it out faster than we give it out.
Senator Kefauver. Did you ever furnish Washington, D. C?
Mr. Bilson. Not Washington, D. C, but years ago the surround-
ing Maryland.
Senator Kefauver. You still do not service surrounding Maryland ?
Mr. Bilson. No, sir ; not around Washington.
Senator Kefauver. How did you happen to quit doing it \
Mr. Bilson. There was an understanding that we weren't supposed
to go into Washington. We made an agreement with somebody, some
Government official, and we promised him we would never go into
Washington.
Senator Kefauver. Was that a police official ?
Mr. Bilson. It is hazy to me, but I do know that something like
that happened.
Senator Kefauver. You made an agreement with some Government
official that you were not going to come into Washington \
Mr. Bilson. I say it was a Government official. I imagine it was.
Senator Kefauver. The District of Columbia Government or the
regular Federal Government?
Mr. Bilson. I could not determine that. I have had so many in my
office, I couldn't tell one from the other. I had 13 in there.
Senator Kefauver. Thirteen what \
Mr. Bilsox. In my office in Baltimore, coming in at different times.
Mr. Finnertt. I think the witness means in recent weeks.
Senator Kefauver. Did the official have a uniform on or plain
civilian clothes?
Mr. Bilson. Plain civilian clothes.
85277 — 51 — pt. 17 16
238 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Kefauver. Why didn't he want you to come into Wash-
ington ?
M r. Bilson. I couldn't answer you on that. I couldn't answer you
truthfully about that.
Senator Kefauver. Did he say he would make it tough for you if
you came in?
Mr. Bilson. No threats.
Senator Kefauver. Just didn't want you to come in?
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Going back to last summer, and obtaining the informa-
tion from the tracks — let's take Garden State in New Jersey as an
example — you had a track crew operating. Do you recall who was
the boss of that track crew \
Mr. Finnerty. You referred to last summer ?
Mr. Rice. Roscoe Odel?
Mr. Bilson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What was his job as boss of that track crew?
Mr. Bilson. Obtain the news and send it to us.
Mr. Rice. Did you furnish him with binoculars and telescope?
Mr. Bilson. He furnished them himself. I do not have any more
binoculars since I stopped getting the news myself.
Mr. Rice. How many employees did you have on the payroll help-
ing the track crew under him?
Mr. Bilson. The same as appears on the reports that you have.
Mr. Rick. Do you know?
Mr. Finnerty. You have the records, Mr. Rice. That is certainly
the best evidence.
Mr. Rice. You had Mangan, Sherry?
Mr. Bilson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. They were working under Odel? Do you know where
Odel is now ?
Mr. Bilson. I made every effort to try to locate him I do not
know.
Mr. Rice. What became of him?
Mr. Bilson. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Rice. When did you last see him ?
Mr. Bilson. Maybe 8 or 9 months ago.
Mr. Rice. How was his employment terminated?
Mr. I '» 1 1. son. He just passed out of the picture.
Mr. Rice. He just disappeared?
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And you had to cut him off the payroll ?
Mr. Bilson. Naturally.
Mr. Rice. In looking over your records, Ave found that while Odel
was head of the track crew up there, he was charging expenses to the
company which you were paying and the invoices showed the follow-
ing figures for four straight weeks:
Renl Xo. 1. Garden State. $200; rent No. 2, Garden State, $200;
rent \<>. .;. ( rarden State. $200; emergency, S2:>6.
That adds up to ss:;t; a week which Odel was drawing for expenses
for I weeks up there. What was that money spent for?
Mr. Bilson. I do not know that. I do not know.
Mr. Rice. You paid it out. didn't you?
Mr. Bilson. I paid it out.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 239
Mr. Rice. You do not know what it was spent for \
Mr. Bilsox. I clou "t.
Mr. Rice. Do you know what rent No. 1 means?
Mr. Bilsox. I do not.
Mr. Rice. How do you account for passing these expenditures which
you charge off' as legitimate business expenses in your income tax to
the Government and you do not know what it was spent for '.
Mr. BmsoN". As long as it remained a reasonable figure, we honored
it and paid for it.
Mr. Rice. Nearly $1,000 for one man, plus your other expenses, ag-
gregate a substantial figure for a year. It would be up to $50,000 a
year which you charged the Government for expenses. Didn't you
get any better idea of what it was spent for?
Can't you get any closer to that ?
Air. Bilsox. That was the cheap figure for the news.
Mr. Rice. But. was it a cheap figure for the Government \
Mr. Bilsox. For the Government '.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Bilsox. In what way do you mean ?
Mr. Rice. Suppose the Government asks you how they know these
are legitimate expenses, who gets the money, what will you say \
Mr. Bilsox. He got the money.
Mr. Rice. Who got it?
Mr. Bilsox. The man you are talking about.
Mr. Rice. Odel?
Mr. Bilsox. That is right.
Mr. Rice. He disappeared.
Mr. Bilsox. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Did you pay it by check?
Mr. Bilsox. By check.
Mr. Rice. You got his endorsement on the check and you consider
that sufficient documentation for the Government to charge that as an
expense, $50,000 a year?
Mr. Fixxerty. We object, sir. I think the field of inquiry is get-
ting a little beyond the scope of this committee's investigation.
Mr. Rice. We will be glad to have you straighten us out, Mr. Fin-
nerty.
Mr. Fixxerty. I think the witness' answer, as I understand, is
whatever this figure is, $1,000 or whatever it is, in his opinion, was a
reasonable expense for the acquisition of the news this man gathered.
Mr. Rice. This doesn't say anything about the news. It says,
"emergency $236," and speaks about rent Nos. 1, 2, and 3. This is very
nebulous.
Mr. Fixxerty. You added the three figures to get $1,000 a week.
Mr. Rice. $836 for that, plus Mangan's and Egner's expenses for
nearly $100 a week each. Recently they have been running >42 a
week. Sherry's was $56. That was all in addition to their salaries.
This is expensive, running around $1,000 a week.
Mr. Fixxerty. I understood the witness' answer to your question
to be, and if I am wrong he will correct me. that he regarded the news
which he received from these persons to whom he was required to pay
$1,000 as worth it. He regarded it as a reasonable figure for ex-
penses.
240 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Kefauver. That is his testimony. The question is, since
he regards it as reasonable, he should know something about the ex-
penses they had. How does he feel that is reasonable? Do you feel
that the expenses you have to pay covers lookout posts and other
things they had to do, which makes it a reasonable figure?
Mr. BiLSON. Senator. I can answer that this way: I do not know
anything about the working of the track crew. I do not contract them.
I know nothing about them. If they can furnish me with the news
and it a reasonable figure, as I said. I honor it and pay it. I paid them
by check.
" Senator Kefauver. The question is, Mr. Bilson, with an amount
of money that large, you must have negotiated back and forth to arrive
at what was a reasonable figure. Would you go into them and ques-
tion what they had to pay for — binoculars, and so forth?
Mr. Bilson. Never.
Senator Kefauver. What they have to pay for, where they are going
to look from, and things of that sort?
Mr. Bilson. Never.
Senator Kefauver. You let them fix the figure and you thought it
was reasonable and paid it?
Mr. Bilson. He negotiated with me to get the news in. It is up to
him to find the location. I have been to Garden State only once in
my life.
Mr. Rice. Suppose he was getting the location for $50 and charging
yon $600, it wouldn't make any difference?
Mi-. Bilson. On the face of it, no ; because I wouldn't know any-
thing about it. If he was padding expenses, I would know anything
about it.
Mr. Rice. As a matter of fact, you do not know anything about it f
Mr. Bilson. I do not.
Mr. Rice. Except that in your tax return you do charge that as a
legitimate business expense.
Mr. Bilson. I paid it out.
Mr. Rice. You are charging something about which you know
nothing.
Mr. Bilson. I paid it out to an individual.
Mr. Rice. You know you paid the money out, but you do not know
what it was for.
Mr. Bilson. I was billed for it.
Mr. Rice. By your own employee.
Mr. Bilson. I didn't classify him as my employee.
Mr. Rice. Do you drive a car?
Mr. Bilson. Not now.
Mr. Rick. You do not drive a car now7?
Mr. Bilson. No.
Mr. Rick. When was the last time you drove a car?
Mr. Bilson. Oh, I drive maybe down to the barber shop.
Mr. Rice. When was the last time you did that?
Mr. Bilson. The last time I got my hair cut, a couple of weeks
ago.
Mr. Rice. Is that all you use the car for, to get a haircut?
Mr. Bilson. My wife uses the car. She is a good driver for a
woman.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 241
Mr. Rice. In recent weeks, from June of L951, T see expenses for
H. Bilson, car, $25 a week. What is that for ?
Mr. Bilson. That was the upkeep of my car.
Mr. Rice. And it comes out of the company?
Mr. Bilson. How about when I come to work every day. when it
mosts me $2 each day to come to work in a cab ; that is $4 a day.
I cannot walk and cannot drive.
Mr. Rice. But 3*011 charged $25 a week for the car to the business
expenses.
Mr. Bilson. I will show you the reason why I do not drive the car.
Mr. Finnerty. Perhaps you would like to have it in the record.
Mr. Rice. I understand he doesn't drive a car. I think we will
stipulate that.
(Mr. Finnerty handed a letter to Senator Kefauver.)
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Bilson, you mean that you charge up cab
fare as the use of your car?
Mr. Bilson. Senator, as I said, I use the cab every morning. I have
a standing order with the Sun Cab Co. I ride back and forth. It cost
me $2 each way.
Senator Kefauver. The question is that you here apparently have
a $25 a week, which you charge for the use of your car. Do you mean
that that is what you paid for the cab ?
Mr. Bilson. It runs that up to $24 a week, $4 a day.
Mr. Rice. How about Bilson Ing? I see where he charges $20 a
week. What is he riding?
Mr. Bilson. He uses his car.
Mr. Rice. Uses his car to come to work ?
Mr. Bilson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. You fellows consider it a legitimate business expense,
your transportation to and from work ?
Mr. Bilson. How would you expect me to get into town? I guess
you know where I live. I live in the suburbs.
Mr. Rice. I am asking for your conclusion.
Mr. Bilson. I am trying to make it clear to you. I couldn't get to
work and I couldn't possibly walk up to the bus.
Mr. Rice. You feel that is a business expense because you charge it?
Mr. Bilson. I think so ; yes.
Senator Kefauver. Let's get on to something else.
Mr. Rice. All right, sir.
You were talking about the track crew up at Garden State that
Odel ran and there came a time when he disappeared. About that
time it was necessary to get the news from Florida. They have started
running in Florida. How did you arrange to get the news from
Florida this past winter?
Mr. Bilson. I didn't arrange. I received a telephone call. The
party said, "I understand your news is bad. Would you be interested
if I could get you news?"
I said I was always interested in news. That was the deal.
Mr. Rice. Where did the telephone call come from \
Mr. Bilson. I imagine it came from Florida.
Mr. Rice. Let's not imagine. Let's get down to facts here. You
received a telephone call from Florida and it was a man's voice?
Mr. Bilson. Naturally.
Mr. Rice. Who was it?
242 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Bilson. It was supposed to be Gorman.
Mr. Rice. What did he say?
Mr. Bilson. lie could get the news.
Mr. Rice. He said. "I am Gorman and I can get the news."
Mr. Bilson. I asked him what his name was. He said, "Al
Gorman."
Mr. Rtce. Did you know him?
Ah-. Bilson. Never saw him.
Mr. Rice. Complete stranger to you?
Mr. Jin sox. He was.
Mr. Rice. Whom did he say he was going to get it from?
Mr. Bilson. It is not customary for them to tell you how they get it.
Mr. Rice. It was a mystery how he was going to get it?
Mr. Bilson. As far as I was concerned, as long as he produced.
Mr. Rice. You then said, "All right, go ahead and get it." What
finanacial arrangements were made?
Mr. Bilson. He said he would bill me for it.
Mr. Rice. How much ?
Mr. Bilson. You ask me things that I cannot answer you without
looking at my report, which you have.
Mr. Finnerty. I think that is an unfair question. If you have
a record, Mr. Rice, why don't you give this gentleman the document?
Mr. Rice. The records have many discrepancies, and that is why I
am asking him.
Mr. Finnerty. You have the best evidence.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Bilson ought to know approximately how
much he paid Mr. Gorman.
Mr. Bilson. It ran about $820 a week.
Mr. Rice. How do you arrive at that figure ?
Mr. Bilson. He billed us for $820 a week.
Mr. Rice. For $820 a week he said, "I will deliver the news."
Mr. Bilson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Any other arrangements made about whose employes
would be used, or anything like that?
Mr. Bilson. He said he could use my track crew and I said it would
be all right.
Mr. Rice. Did he know them?
Mr. Bilson. Evidently he did.
Mr. Rice. What track crew did you turn over to him ?
Mr. Bilson. The ones who are on my report.
Mr. Rice. Who were they i We do not have a report.
Mr. Bilson. You have a whole brief case full of them. You have
taken them out of my office and I cannot work without them.
Mr. Rice. Who worked in Florida ?
Mr. Bilson. Egner, Maloney, Nichols, and Sherry.
Mr. Rice. You turned them over to them and he was to head the
crew : is that right?
Mr. Bilson. Who was to head the crew ?
Mr. Rice. This man Gorman ?
Mr. Bilson. As far as I know, yes.
Mr. Rice. How did you put him in touch with the crew ?
Mr. Bilson. They made their own arrangements.
Mr. Rice. He said he was already in touch with them?
Mr. Bilson. Must have been.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 243
Mr. Rice. He then became an independent contractor. He said,
"I will deliver the goods."
Mr. Bilsox. That is correct .
Mr. Rice. How did von pa}' him?
Mr. Bilsox. By check.
Mr. Rice. By a check of Howard Sports, and you have turned
some of them over to us.
Mr. BiLSON. I turned pretty nearly all of them over to you.
Mr. Rice. Where did you send the checks ?
Mr. Bilsox. Sir?
Mr. Fixxeijty. You mean at any specific time ?
Mr. Rice. What address did you have \
Mr. Bilsox. In Florida — General Delivery. Florida.
Mr. Rice. Pretty good-sized place down there.
Mr. Bilsox. Anybody can pick up mail at general delivery.
Mr. Rice. What" town?
Mr. Bilsox. Miami.
Mr. Rice. General Delivery, Miami?
Mr. Bilsox. That is right.
Mr. Rice. After a while the news started coming, what did he do I
Did he call you up ?
Mr. Bilsox. What did he do ? Call me up ?
Mr. Rice. Did he call you collect to deliver ?
Mr. Bilsox". That is right.
Mr. Rice. He started to produce ?
Mr. Bilsox. That is right.
Mr. Rice. He called in to Howard Sports collect and you paid the
telephone bill and the track crew ?
Mr. Bilsox. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Did he do a good job ?
Mr. Bilsox. He did a fairly good job, but the radio stations beat
us anyhow.
Mr. Rice. But you continued to pay him ?
Mr. Bilsox. We had to do the best we could with what we had.
Mr. Rice. When he moved to Maryland, did the same arrangement
follow ?
Mr. Bilsox. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. He moved to Maryland ?
Mr. Bilsox. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. When they were running at Pimlico, where did you send
his check?
Mr. Bilsox. It seems to me — of course, I am in and out, I am not in
there all the time, as you know — he had one of his men stop in and
pick it up.
Mr. Rice. He never came up there ?
Mr. Bilsox. I never saw Al Gorman.
Mr. Rice. You have never seen Gorman in your life ?
Mr. Bilsox. Never have.
Mr. Rice. He sent someone up? You mean from the track crew?
Mr. Bilsox. I do not know that he sent specially one from the track
crew. Some fellow came up and said he wanted Gorman's check, and
I gave it to him.
Mr. Rice. You didn't give it to Gorman, you gave it to anybody?
Mr. Bilsox. That is right.
244 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. When he move! to New Jersey, where did you send the
checks ?
Mr. Bilson. There was a place in Asbury Park.
Mr. Finnerty. Don't you have the address ?
Mr. Kick. Yes. lie sent them to an address in Asbury Park. A
staff member went to the address and found it to be Union Hall in
Asbury Park and they didn't know anybody by the name of Gorman.
Later on you sent the checks to him in care of Malbro Communica-
tion Engineers, which is in Camden. A staff member went there and
i hey said t'hey didn't know him, but they had cashed checks after
waiting for the checks to clear, because they knew Howard Sports
checks Avere good.
Mr. Bilson. Didn't you open the letter in my office that was going
to Gorman at Camden? You opened that yourself.
Mr. Hick. Yes.
Was it ever delivered?
Mr. Bilson. You wanted me to go over to the post office and register
it. I said that was not the bargain. I couldn't walk. I said to Mr.
Jackson that the agreement was that you were going to seal that back
and mail it. He said, "That is right."
Mr. Jackson and I walked out in the hall and dropped it in the box.
Mr. Rice. While we were over in Mr. Bilson's office about a week
ago, he was mailing out checks to this individual who goes under the
name of Tropical News. Incidentally, you did not deal with him
under the name of Gorman. There was a letter wdiich we opened. I
put in a note asking Mr. Gorman to get in touch with us. I haven't
heard from him.
Mr. Bilson. You wrote the letter yourself.
Mr. Rice. I wrote a note to him.
Mr. Finnerty. You enclosed it in the same envelope with the check.
Mr. Rice. We haven't heard anything from him. He is still a
mystery man, as far as we are concerned.
Senator Kefattver. In addition to this $800 a week, which you pay
this mysterious Mr. Gorman, do you also pay your track crew indi-
vidual! v?
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
Senator Kkfatjver. You pay them, and on top of that vou pay him
$820 a week?
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
Senator Kefattver. That is a lot of money for one man's services.
Mr. Bilson. It is worth a lot of money to get the service. If you
do not get the service, you cannot hold the customers together.
Mr. Rice. For the record at this time, Mr. Chairman, we will offer
four checks that have been obtained through the courtesy of Mr.
Bilson, relating to this Tropical News. The first one is dated March
8, 1951, in the amount of $500 to Tropical News. It is indicated as
part payment for uHia news." I presume that means Hialeah. The
endorsement is "Al Gorman, Tropical News, by George Baker, man-
ager."
Senator Kefattver. Mr. Finnerty, you are familiar with these
checks '.
Mr. Finnerty. No: T have not seen them.
Senator Kefattver. We will pass them to you after they have been
identified.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 245
Mr. Rice. The next check is for $500 to Tropical News, "second pay-
ment," on March 14, L951. It is endorsed, "Tropical News, by George
Gorman, owner."
The next one is for $500, dated June 20.
The last one is dated June 27 and is for $820 and it is made out to
Tropical News and is endorsed, "Tropical News, by George Gorman,
manager."
So it is clear that we have the first one by George Baker, manager;
the second one by George Gorman, owner; and the last one by George
( iornian, manager.
Senator Kefauver. Let them be made part of the record.
(The afore-mentioned checks were marked "Bilson Exhibit No. 1,"
and are on file with the special committee.)
Mr. Rice. The record should show that Mr. Bilson talks about Al
Gorman ; when Mr. Ing talks about him, he says the fellow he dickered
with was a man by the name of R. Gorman. The checks are endorsed
by a George Gorman. Can you help us find out who that man is ?
Mr. Bilson., I assure you that we have. You know that the letter
went out. I cannot go up there and locate him.
Mr. Rice. The track crew and this man called into your place every
day?
Mr. Bilson. When they are working ; yes.
Mr. Rice. They are still doing it?
Mr. Bilson. For the last 3 or 4 days they have not done it.
Mr. Rice. Why was that?
Mr. Bilson. Your guess is as good as mine. We haven't had news
from Monmouth for the last 3 or 4 days.
Mr. Rice. There was a breakdown since last Friday ?
Mr. Bilson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. That was the day there was something in the paper that
the committee was looking for Gorman?
Mr. Bilson. It could have been.
Senator Kefauver. When they call in, they call in after every
race?
Mr. Bilson. A few minutes before.
Senator Kefauver. And then immediately after?
Mr. Bilson. We hold them on.
Senator Kefauver. You keep them on the line?
Mr. Bilson. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Don't you keep them on the line from the be-
ginning of the race, when the race first starts during the day, until the
end of the races?
Mr. Bilson. No. We break the connection maybe 10 or 12 times.
Senator Kefauver. Let's get on, Mr. Rice.
Mr. Rice. Do you have a man in Bowie taking care of that ? Did
you have one when they were running?
Mr. Bilson. They were working there ; yes.
Mr. Rice. You have a number of calls from a man by the name of
Muggins.
Mr. Bilson. He sends the early scratches and riders in.
Mr. Rice. He had nothing to do with what Gorman handles ?
Mr. Bilson. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. It is a different proposition. He gets the early line?
Mr. Bilson. Not the line, the riders.
246 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Kick. Perhaps you can help us on this, Mr. Bilson. In our
investigation down in Florida we checked up on the Interstate News
and the Dade County News Dealers— Buttsy O'Brien-Haggerty-
Keough outfit.
Mr.' Bilson. I do not know Buttsy O'Brien or Keough. I have
never been in Florida. I talked to someone.
Mr. Rice. You talked to Keough.
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
M i . Hue. He subscribed to your news and owes you a lot of money.
Mr. Bilson. You are so right.
Mr. Mice. In one day there were telephone calls — you have LD111—
that is long distance No. 111?
Mr. Bilson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. There were a number of calls made from O'Brien's out-
fit, the Dade County News Dealers, to your number in Baltimore.
Mr. Bilson. What number ?
Mr. Rice. LDlll.
Mr. Bilson. Made calls ?
Mr. Rice. Made telephone calls to you. They paid for them.
Mr. Bilson. Where did the calls originate from \
Mr. Rice. From a telephone in Miami, 3-6325 and 3-6321.
Mr. Bilson. Isn't that a scratch sheet?
Mr. Rice. Butsy O'Brien's Scratch Sheet.
Mr. Btlson. We got the scratch information from them.
Mr. Rice. The strange part is that the telephone bill for the
Graham Press Scratch Sheet was paid by Dade County New^s Dealers,
which wasn't a scratch outfit.
Mr. Bilson. I didn't know that. We were charged from the
scratch sheet.
Mr. Rice. At the same time, the same day, they called through
New Orleans, Canal 0037, which was Daily Sports News, Fogarty's
outfit in New Orleans.
Mr. Bilson. 1 called them?
Mr. Rice. What would you call them for ?
Mr. Bilson. When our wire failed and I talked to John Fogarty
many, many times. If our wire goes down, I contact him, and have
done it at times, to see if his wire is holding up at his end, and in that
way we get our news back in Baltimore.
Mr. Rice. You would get the news from Fogarty in New Orleans ?
Mr. Bilson. I get it from anybody I can.
Mr. Rice. Did you pay him for that?
Mr. Bilson. No.
Mr. Rice. The same day they called Chicago several times and
talked to Midwest News, which was another subscriber of Continental.
Mr. Bilson. Who talked to Midwest News?
Mr. Rice. Midwest News.
Mr. Bilson. Who did?
Mr. Rice. Graham Press, Butsy O'Brien's outfit.
Mr. Bilson. I didn't know that.
Mr. Rice. You couldn't account for a reason if they were getting
it from you that they would call Fogarty in New Orleans and call
Midwest in Chicago?
Mr. Bilson. I wouldn't know the workings of that.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 247
Mr. Rice. For the record, it indicates another channel of the
■dummy set-up from Continental down through Midwest and Howard
and Fogarty, an interchange of information without any compen-
sation changing hands.
How many subscribers to your racing news service do you have
now, Mr. Bilson ?
Mr. Finnerty. You mean over-all, Mr. Rice ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Bilson. I would say about 12. I am just giving you a guess.
I think that is the round figure.
Mr. Rice. Are they all call-in subscribers?
Mr. Bilson. I am taking my printer subscribers in there.
Mr. Rice. How many do you have of those ?
Mr. Bilson. About 10.
Mr. Rice. World-Wide News and Music is one of those?
Mr. Bilson. It is not on that circuit.
Mr. Rice. What circuit is he on?
Mr. Bilson. He is on a private wire with the Baltimore Xews from
the telephone company, a leased wire.
Mr. Rice. How does he get his news from you ?
Mr. Bilson. On this wire.
Mr. Rice. How does he pay }7ou for it ?
Mr. Bilson. He hasn't paid me for some time. He owes.
Mr. Rice. What is his rate per week?
Mr. Bilson. It was $200. Then we cut it down to $150. Then we
cut it down to $108. Then he stopped paying. They stopped paying.
Mr. Rice. He paid in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred
dollars a day ?
Mr. Bilson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What do the city people pay ?
Mr. Bilson. $40.
Mr. Rice. Why did World-Wide pay more ?
Mr. Bilson. He is a competitor.
Mr. Rice. How does he compete ?
Mr. Bilson. He is in the same business we are in, practically.
Mr. Rice. Except he gets it from you and sublets it (
Senator Kefauver. How many other competitors do you have like
World-Wide News that you furnish the information to?
Mr. Bilson. I cannot name any.
Senator Kefauver. Who are the others who get it besides World-
Wide News?
Mr. Finnerty. As of this time?
Senator Kefauver. As of now.
Mr. Finnerty. Does Mr. Rice have those records?
Mr. Rice. Yes ; we do.
You say he is a competitor. How do you establish that? How do
you know what he is doing?
Mr. Bilson. That is the opinion I gathered from him.
Mr. Rice. How do you get your opinion? Do you talk to him?
Mr. Bilson. I have talked to him, but I haven't been in his office
but once.
Mr. Rice. You feel he is a competitor because he is selling them to
others. The others are not.
124S ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Bilson. When it conies into court, they name the World-Wide
and Howard Sports. Yon gather from that he is certainly a com-
petitor.
Mr. Rice. How many other similar customers do you have? You
say he gets it over the telephone. Your man announces over the
microphone and he is plugged in and gets it throughout the after-
noon \ A low many others do you have like that \
Mr. Bilson. Baltimore News.
Mr. Kick. How much do they pay \
Mr. Bilson. They do not pay anything. They give us a byline in
the paper every night.
Mr. Rice. They give you a byline where they say. "Racing results
through the courtesy of Howard News.'" They do not pay anything.
Who else gets it?
Mr. Bilson. That is all. People call in.
Mr. Kick. You have call-in customers?
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
Mr. Rkk. How many of those' do you have %
Mr. Bilson. Two.
Mr. Kick. What is the most you ever had?
Mr. Bilson. The most I ever had?
Mr. Kick. Yes.
Mr. Bilson. What do you mean now? You are going back to "ever
had." Are you talking about when Fontaine was running over here?
Mr. Rice. Anv time.
Mr. Bilson. That was 1929, wasn't it?
Mr. Kick. I don't know.
Mr. Bilson. I might have had 40 or 50 at one time.
Mr.RiCE. That isthemost call-in customers you ever had?
Mr. Bilson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Who are the two you have now ?
Mr. Bilson. I have been over that many, many times with you in
the office. I gave you what addresses I had and what names I had and
you seem, more or less, to ridicule what I told you. That is all I can
tell you.
Mr. Kick. I would like to clear that up. If I gave you the impres-
sion, 1 am sorry, but perhaps the reason has been that we have been
unable to find any of these customers at any time.
Mr. Bilson. Mr. Rice, I am not responsible for them, am I ?
Mi'. Kick. No. There is no suggestion of that.
Who are these two customers?
Mr. Bilsox. I don't know who they are.
Mr. Rice. How do you do business with them ?
Mr. Bilson. They have numbers.
Mr. Kick. Do you know their numbers?
Mr. Bilson. One is 12, 1 think, and one is 31.
> I r. Kick. Last week you had four, didn't you ?
Mr. Bilson. They are dropping off.
Mr. Rice. There was a raid on one of the places last week, wasn't
there \
Mr. r.ii.soN. Yes; there was.
Mr. Rice. H. & H., one on Riggio Road.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 249
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Bilson, it is hard to believe that yon have
a customer like that with a number and you do not know who the
company is.
Mr. Bilsox. Senator, years ago we had no occasion to go through all
this.
Senator Kefauver. How do they pay you?
Mr. Bilsox. They come in to the office and leave the money or send
it in by messenger or send it in by check.
Senator Kefauver. Don't you know who brings the money in?
Mr. Bilsox. No; we don't.
Senator Kefauver. It looks like over the course of time you would
get acquainted with who they are, so you would know them and dis-
cuss matters with them, whether the service is good or bad.
Mr. Bilsox. They tell you that on the telephone light quick, if it is
bad.
Senator Kefauver. You purposely operate so you won't know who
they are ; is that part of the plan ?
Mr. Bilsox. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Why don't you use "John Jones" instead of
"No. 12"?
Mr. Bilsox. I am a veteran of World War I and I call everybody
Buddy. When a man comes in, I call everybody Buddy. I do that
a lot of times. You have a lot of nicknames for people. When a mes-
senger brings the money in, I do not question him, that is a cinch.
Senator Kefauver. Who do you write a receipt out to ?
Mr. Bilsox. No receipt.
Mr. Fixxerty. May I clarify it, to give you my idea. I understand
these people pay in advance, don't they, Mr. Bilson '.
Mr. Bilsox. Yes.
Mr. Fixxertt. Therefore, unless they are paid up, }tou do not give
them news ; isn't that correct ?
Mr. Bilsox. That is correct.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Bilson, we would like to have Richard
Mangan and Irving Sherry here. They work for you. Will you try
to get them here tomorrow ?
Mr. Bilsox. I will make every effort, Senator.
Senator Kefauver. Any other questions ?
Mr. Rice. Not at this time.
Senator Kefauver. If we need you again, we will call you.
The committee will stand in recess until 2 : 15.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 25 p. m., the committee recessed to reconvene at
2 : 15 p. m. of the same day.)
afterxoox sessiox
Senator Kefauver. The committee will come to order, and the
chairman apologizes for being late. We had a committee meeting
about an executive matter which caused us to be late. I am very
sorry.
Mr. Rice, will you call Mr. Matusky and his counsel, Mr. Siegel,
back?
250 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
TESTIMONY OF LEONARD J. MATUSKY, ACCOMPANIED BY MORRIS
SIEGEL— Resumed
Senator Kefauyer. Mr. Matusky, when you left the stand this
morning for the purpose of consulting with your counsel, Mr. Siegel,
with reference to the question about whether you had called or had
any transaction with Mr. Kelly of Continental Press — I believe that
was the issue, wasn't it, Mr. Rice?
Mr. Rice. Yes, Senator.
Senator Kefauver. Can you tell us about it?
Mr. Matusky. Why I called Kelly and he called me, and it was a
matter of money I discussed with him in regard to this fellow Niles,
knowing he knew Niles
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Matusky, will you speak up louder. Are
these microphones on?
Mr. Rice. I understand it does not amplify the voice.
Senator Kefauver. All right, you speak up louder.
Mr. Matusky. That was the conversation I had with Kelly.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Rice, do you have any questions?
Mr. Rice. I am sorry, I did not hear about the conversation, Mr.
Matusky.
Mr. Matusky. Why in reference to money that I was putting up
for the company when Niles left here sometime in March, I think we
had around $3,900 worth of bills.
Mr. Rice. $3,900 where?
Mr. Matusky. In overdue bills.
Mr. Rice. From whom?
Mr. Matusky. From the telephone company, attorney fees and
different bills, Western Union, amounted to approximately $3,900.
Mr. Rice. The World-Wide News and Music owed money?
Mr. Matusky. That's right, sir, and that is one of the things I
discussed with him over the phone.
Mr. Rice. You talked about Earl Wyman to Tom Kelly who was
manager of Continental Press?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Why did you talk to him?
Mi-. Matusky. Well, for the reason knowing that he knew Niles
and Mclnerney which were the two men, and in this particular case
Niles owned the stock and he was liable for any bills there, and also
as far as the contract, I had a 20-year agreement with him at a salary
and also Mr. O'Dell. There wasn't any money for salaries, and of
course we had these bills when Niles left.
Mr. Rice. Did they owe you money too?
Mr. M \ri sky. Yes, they owe me money. I haven't been paid since
ili;if February.
Mr. Rice. At that time though when Niles went west?
Mi-. Matusky. I hadn't been getting paid.
Mr. Rice. You had not been getting paid?
Mr. Matusky. No. sir.
Mr. Rice. So that 1 hey owed you money ?
Mr. Math sky. That's right. '
Mr. Rice. Now then yon had a problem there to find out how it was
going to be paid?
Mi-. Matusky. That's right.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 251
Mr. Rice. So you communicated with Tom Kelly, of Continental ?
Mr. Matusky. That's right.
Mr. Rice. Why did you call him instead of Niles?
Mr. Matusky/ Well, I couldn't get in touch with Niles.
Mr. Rice. Couldn't get in touch with Niles?
Mr. Matusky. That's right.
Mr. Rice. This was when, in March, you say?
Mr. Matusky. It was sometime in March. I think: yes.
Mr. Rice. And then you called Kelly and what did Kelly tell you?
Mr. Matusky. Well, that he would try to get in touch with Niles
and see if he could straighten the thing out.
Mr. Rice. Did he straighten it out?
Mr. Matusky. Well, to some extent. I am still not paid and he did
have Niles come down here like I told you he was in here sometime, I
think, in May, with a thousand dollars.
Mr. Rice. He brought a thousand dollars?
Mr. Matusky. That's right.
Mr. Rice. In cash ?
Mr. Matusky. That's right.
Mr. Rice. And you deposited that in the account ?
Mr. Matusky. No, I didn't deposit that in the account. The com-
pany already owed me, I think, twenty-four hundred and some dol-
lars of bills that I paid that were necessary, so all I did was just
deduct that $1,000 and showed a balance of whatever it was that
they still owed me.
Mr. Rice. Kelly arranged for Niles to come in ; is that the idea ?
Mr. Matusky. Well, as far as I know he did, because Niles did
eventually call me. I don't know whether he just called me on his own.
Mr. Rice. You were not able to reach him, but evidently Kelly
did
Mr. Matusky. Apparently he did.
Mr. Rice. He knew what you wanted ?
Mr. Matusky. That's right.
Mr. Rice. What are you going to do about the bills that are owing
now, back salary?
Mr. Matusky. Well, I don't know what to do about them. As far
as I know I don't know whether this Niles has any money to pay men.
In salary I think they owe me around $10,000 in salary.
Mr. Rice. How much ?
Mr. Matusky. Around $10,000.
Mr. Rice. How long a period would that be for ?
Mr. Matusky. That would be some time in February up until last
week. To be exact I think it's $9,400 plus other monej-s that they owe
me for bills that I've paid.
Mr. Rice. Just for our information, how long are you going to
continue to carry them ?
Mr. Matusky. Well, I don't intend to carry them much longer.
Mr. Rice. Is your wife on the pay roll ?
Mr. Matusky. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Did she draw any compensation from World-Wide?
Mr. Matusky. No, sir. not at an}7 time.
Mr. Rice. Did she hold any stock?
Mr. Matusky. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Have vou ever been arrested?
252 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Matusky. Have I ever been arrested?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Matuskt. I was arrested one time, yes, sir.
Mr. Kice. When and where was that?
Mr. Matusky. That's been so long ago. It was in Washington
here. I don't know whether it was 1937 or something like that.
Mr. Rice. Here in Washington?
Mr. Matusky. That's right.
Mr. Kice. Who arrested yon ?
Mr. Matusky. I don't know. I wouldn't remember the name.
Mr. Rice. The police department or the Government ?
Mr. Matusky. No, the police department.
Mr. Rice. What were yon doing here?
Mr. Matusky. I was operating Telefiash Loud Speaker Corp. at
that time.
Mr. Rice. Teleflash Loud Speaker Corp.?
Mr. Matusky. That's right.
Mr. Rice. For Nation-Wide which was Annenberg outfit?
Mr. Matusky. That's right.
Mr. Rice. What was the charge? What did they arrest you for?
Mr. Matusky. Well, nothing happened. I don't even know. I
just went down. There was no warant issued. It was asked by who-
ever came — I don't remember the name; Mr. Garnett, I remember
his name, wanted to talk to me, and I come down and I was never
indicted.
Mr. Rice. Did you pay a fine?
Mr. Matusky. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Were you fingerprinted?
Mr. Matusky. Fingerprinted, yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Is that the only time you have been arrested ?
Mr. Matusky. That's the only time.
Mr. Rice. Did you cease business then in Washington?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Went away and went to Baltimore?
Mr. Matusky. No ; 1 think I left and went to New York. I worked
for them in New York.
Mr. Rice. Worked for Nation-Wide up there ?
Mr. Matusky. That's right.
Senator Kefauver. Have you been connected with the wire service
quite a number of years?
Mr. Matusky. That's right.
Senator Kefauvek. When did you start out with the wire service?
Mr. Matusky. I would say in 1935 or 1936.
Senator Kefauvek. And Annenberg, later on became McBride,
later Regan, and later McBride again?
Mr. Matusky. That's right.
Senator Kefauver. Tom Kelly operating?
Mr. M \n sky. That's right.
Senator Kefauvek. Yon got $2,000 a week, is that 37our salary?
Mr. Matusky. No; 400 a week.
Senator Keeai vek. s|.i;<i() a month?
Mr. Matuskt. That's light.
Senator Kefauver. Did yon expert Mr. Niles to take care of these
bills because he owns the stock?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 253
"Sir. Matusky. Well, that was the understanding that he was to
take care of the bills.
Senator Kefauver. When he came to see you after Mr. Kelly sent
him to see you, he had that money in his pocket to pay you $1,000?
Mr. M.virsKY. Thai's right.
Senator Kefauver. So Mr. Kelly apparently told him that you
needed some money?
Mr. Matusky. That's right.
Senator Kefauver. Did you ask Mr. Kelly to send some money to
you ?
Mr. Matusky. Did I ?
Senator Kefauver. Yes.
Mr. Matusky. Yes, I asked him to send some.
Senator Kefauver. Did he send any?
Mr. Matusky. No ; he hasn't.
Senator Kefauver. Has he agreed to?
Mr. Matusky. He has agreed to try to help me.
Senator Kefauver. How much has he agreed to help you ?
Mr. Matusky. I don't know that.
Senator Kefauver. Has he agreed to pay your salary?
Mr. Matusky. No ; I haven't discussed that with him.
Senator Kefauver. He agreed to see that you got the money to pay
your bills, is that the idea ?
Mr. Matusky. That's right.
Senator Kefauver. You are relying upon him to get the money, to
see that you get the money to pay your bills ?
Mr. Matusky. That's right.
Senator Kefauver. Why do you rely upon him?
Mr. Matusky. Well, originally when this first agreement was made,
Mr. Kelly sent down a Mr. Gordon who is now dead, and Mr. Niles.
That was some time in 1948, and the conversation was "Well, I would
be interested in selling the business."
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Matusky, the truth about the matter is that
while you have these different companies, some of Kelly's employees
own the stock in several corporations and all of you look to Con-
tinental and to Mr. Kelly as being the daddy of the whole thing, don't
you ?
Mr. Matusky. Well, I don't know about the others.- I did due to
the fact that he asked me
Senator Kefauver. Well, yon do and actually your company — what
is the name of your company?
Mr. Matusky. World-Wide News.
Senator Kefauver. World-Wide News, Howard, and Continental
are for practical purposes about the same thing?
Mr. Matusky. Well, I don't know about Howard. I know I did
for that one particular reason.
Senator Kefauver. Anyway, your company is substantially Con-
tinental, isn't that true?
Mr. Matusky. I didn't get that, Senator.
Senator Kefauver. I say you and Continental are tied in so close
that you are all part of the same family ?
Mr. Matusky. Well, if Mclnerney and Niles is, that is probably
true.
85277— 51— pt. 17 17
254 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Kefauver. Anything else?
.Mr. Rice. Yes. You have testified under oath in some proceedings
in Baltimore from time to time, haven't you, before?
Mr. Matusky. I was before the grand jury.
Mr. Rice. Before the grand jury?
Mr. Matusky. Yes.
Mr. Kick. And do you ever recall having been asked a question be-
fore about whether or not your wife received any money from World-
Wide?
Mr. Matusky. I think I was asked that. I am not sure but I think
] was asked that.
Mr. Rice. And what was your answer?
Senator Kefauver. Won't you keep your voice up, please?
Mr. Matusky. I am trying to get a glass of water. Senator. I had
a ham sandwich and it was right salty. It was one of those Virginia
hams.
What was the quest ion ?
Mr. Kick. The question was. What was your testimony about your
wife receiving compensation from World-Wide or from Wire Service?
Mr. Matusky. She received none.
Mr. Kick. She never received any money?
Mr. Matusky. No, sir.
Mr. Kick. What is your wife's name?
Mr. Matusky. Gertrude E.
Mr. Kick. Gertrude?
Mr. Matusky. E.
* Mr. Kick. That is the only wife you have had?
Mr. Matusky. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And she has never received any compensation from
World-Wide or from Wire Service?
Mr. Matusky. That is correct.
Mr. Kick. Did she have any separate job?
Mr. Matusky. No. sir.
Senator Kefauver. That is all. Thank you Mr. Matusky. If we
need you again, we will let you know.
Mr. Rice. Mr. Myer Rosen.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Rosen, do you swear the testimony you give
the committee will be the whole truth, so help you God?
Mr. Rosex. Yes, sir. Tell them not to take a picture of me, please.
Senator Kefauver. All right, sit down. Don't take his picture.
He does not want his picture made. We have no control over the
press photographers. We can ask them not to take your picture.
TESTIMONY OF MYER EOSEN
Mr. Rosen. They had me down as a Baltimore sporting figure and
I am definitely a workingman.
Senator Kefauver. What did you say. Mr. Rosen \
Mr. Rosen. I said they had me in this morning's paper as a Balti-
more sporting figure. I haven't done any sporting in my life.
Senator Kefauver. They have already had yon in the papers this
morning, and again t his a rternoon \
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. They had yon in the paper this morning?
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 255
Mr. Rosen. This morning's paper as a Baltimore sporting figure.
Senator Kefauyei;. What are you complaining about?
Mr. Rosen. I don't want the children to see their daddy is mixed tip
in anything like that. I am a workingman.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Rosen, where do you live?
Mr. Rosex*. 3837 Reisterstown Road in Baltimore.
Senator Kefacvki:. And where do you work?
Mr. Rosen. At the Maryland Upholstering Co.
Senator Kefauver. All right. Mr. Rice.
Mr. Rice. Mr. Rosen, at one time you were connected with Phil's
Bar, is that correct?
Mi-. Rosen. That's right. That was one mistake I made in my life,
Mr. Rice. I beg your pardon '.
Mr. Rosen. I say that is one mistake I made in my life.
Mr. Rice. Where was Phil's liar located?
Mr. Rosex. 11 North Paca Street in Baltimore.
Mr. Rice. And tell us how you happened to get into that outfit;
what you did and this mistake you are talking about, what it was
Mr. Rosex. Well. I had met him through Mr. Oppleman.
Mr. Rice. Louis Oppleman?
Mr. Rosex. That is right. I met him through some mutual friends,
and 1 was working at the shipyard. That was during the war.
Mr. Rice. About 1044'
Mr. Rosex. That would be right, and he got in contact with m<
and asked me if I would like to come to work for him.
Mr. Rice. Who did the friends say he was? How did they describe
him to you when they introduced him to you?
Mr. Rosen. Just Mr. Oppleman is all I know. I didn't know- him
from Adam, and he asked me if I would like to come to work for him,
and I was working in the shipyard at the time, and I says, "After the
war is over we will see.*' lie says, "I would have to put the plaa b
your name."
Mr. Rice. He said he would have to put it in your name?
Mr. Rosex. That's right. That is the mistake I made and I am
sorry for it.
Mr. Rice. Did he tell you why '.
Mr. Rosex. Well, the man that he had working for him, the licensee
of the place at that time
Mi'. Rice. Schaeffer, wasn't it'
Mr. Rosex. That's right, a Mr. Schaeffer, and I heard he has pa— d
away now, and I guess he didn't want him there. He just wanted mi
to take over, that is all.
Mr. Rice. Get rid of Schaeffer and to put you in there?
Mr. Rosex*. That's right.
Mr. Rice. Why didn't Oppleman have it in his own name?
Mr. Rosex. I don't know. After I was there a while I found out
that he had a record and he couldn't get it in his name.
Mr. Rice. He had a record?
Mr. Rosex. That's right.
Mr. Rice. What sort of a record '.
Mr. Rosex. Oh. I don't know. I mean it's been in the papers there,
I mean it's a fact, it is a known fact.
Mr. Rice. Narcotics or gambling?
25(3 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Air. Rosen. That is right, narcotics. Not gambling that I know of.
Air. Rice. Narcotics?
Air. Rosen. That's right.
Air. Rice. So Oppleman had the place and he needed someone to
front for him; didn't he?
Air. Rosen. Well, as far as I know Air. Schaeffer, I took it over
from him, and it was all through Air. Oppleman.
Air. Rice. What were the arrangements? AVhat did Oppleman
tell yon you were supposed to do ?
Air. Rosen. 1 was supposed to go to work for him, and I told him
I wouldn't go to work for him until the war was over, which I didn't.
Air. Rice. In the meantime, did he have you put your name on the
license?
Air. Rosen. That's right. That was in December, if I remember
right, I'M 1, and I left the shipyard — well, the war was just over in
July, if I am not mistaken. It was almost signed and sealed. That
was in July 1945. Then I went to work for him.
Air. Rice. Now before that you went down and filled out the appli-
cal ion for the liquor license?
Air. Rosen. That's right.
Air. Rice. And you said in that you were the owner!1
Air. Rosen. That is right.
Air. Rice. That was wrong; wasn't it \
Air. Rosen. That definitely was wrong.
Air. Rice. It was all Air. Oppleman's \
Air. Rosen. That's right.
Air. Rice. AVhat did you get out of it ?
Air. Rosen. $75 a week.
Air. Rice. While you were in the shipyard ?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir. Nothing in the shipyard.
Air. Rick. AVhat did you get when you went down and put your
name on it?
Mr. Rosen. Nothing.
Air. Rice. That is just an accommodation ?
Air. Rosen. That was all. He says. "When you get done with the
shipyards, then you come to work for me."
All'. Rice. After the war was over?
Air. Rosen. That's right, that is when I went to work.
Mr. Rice. No more draft, then you can go over there and work?
Air. Rosen. There was no draft wit li me.
AI r. Rick. AVell, you were in the shipyard.
Mr. Rosen. Not the shipyard. I was a little past that age.
Air. Rick. You were what?
Air. Rosen. Pasl that age of a draft business. I didn't £0 in the
shipyard to keep from getl ing drafted.
Air. Rice. 1 did not mean to infer that,
Mr. Rosen. I wasa little past that age.
Air. Rice. You were helping the national defense.
Air. Rosen. That's right,
Mr. Rice. And then after the war was over you went over and
you
Mr. Rosen. Then I went t<> work for him.
Air. Rkk. AVhat did yon do there?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 257
Mr. Rosen. I was a bartender at night.
Mr. Rice. You were also the licensee with your name on the license?
Mr. Rosen. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What was the name on that, the name of the place?
Mr. Rosen. Phil's Bar and Lounge. That was the trade name.
Mr. Rice. And Myer Rosen, licensee ?
Mr. Rosen. That's right.
Mr. Rice. But all the time it was Oppleman's?
Mr. Rosen. It was all pencil and paper work.
Mr. Rice. Was there a holding company or something?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir ; not as I know of.
Mr. Rice. Who handled the bank account?
Mr. Rosen. You see, for the first two and a half years — well, the
first G months I was down at the shipyard, and 2 years after that I was
night work. All the work — Mr. Schaeffer, he was day work for two
full years.
Mr. Rice. After you were there?
Mr. R< isr.x. After I was there. I come to work at 5 : 30. Two o'clock
I went home to my family.
Mr. Rice. Who handled the bank account ?
Mr. Rosen. Mr. Schaeffer. He had authority. The account was
in my name, naturally, but he had authority to pay bills and what not.
Mr. Rice. The account was in your name in what bank?
Mr. Rosen. At a branch of the Maryland Trust. That would be
the Dovers Mechanic.
Mr. Rice. Maryland Trust ?
Mr. Rosen. A branch of the Maryland Trust.
Mr. Rice. And you were entitled to sign checks on that account?
Mr. Rosen. I was, but I didn't.
Mr. Rice. Was it in the name of Myer Rosen ?
Mr. Rosen. That's right.
Mr. Rice. And all the money that was taken in there came up and
went through your account?
Mr. Rosen. Through my account, but through Mr. Schaeffer.
Mr. Rice. Schaeffer was handling it?
Mr. Rosen. That's right.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever go down and make any deposits ?
Mr. Rosen. No, not for the first 2 years.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever ?
Mr. Rosen. I made one deposit when I took over the place. All the
money before then was drawn out and I opened a new account under
Myer Rosen. He gave me $1,000 to open an account. That was a
checking account.
Mr. Rice. Put in $1,000?
Mr. Rosen. That is right.
Mr. Rice. This is a bar where they sell drinks and things like that?
Mr. Rosen. That's right.
Mr. Rice. And you closed up at the end of the day ?
Air. Rosen. Sir?
Mr. Rice. You closed up at the end of the day ?
Mr. Rosen. That's right. That first 2 years.
Mr. Rice. While you were there, what was the average day's re-
ceipts, gross receipts, approximately ?
258 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rosen. Well, the "week ends would be more than during the
week.
Mr. Rice. Yes, I understand that. What would it be, say, on a
Saturday night ?
Mr. Rosen. Saturday night around three, I guess.
Mr. Rice. About three hundred?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir. That was early, not toward the end. Toward
the end we weren't making a dime; that is, he wasn't.
Mr. Rice. So in any event all the time it was something less than
three hundred?
Mr. Rosen. When are you talking about ?
Mr. Rice. Any time that you had anything to do with it.
Mr. Rosen. Sometimes it was three, sometimes slightly more, and
most of the time it was less.
Mr. Rice. Well, maybe this will help you. On the bank account
down there at the Maryland Trust Co., we have taken a look at it and
it was carried in the name of Phil's Packaged Liquors; is that right?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir; it was changed. It was originally, that is what
I heard, a package liquor store, and the name was changed to Phil's
Bar and Lounge. It used to be a package liquor store.
Mr. Rice. 11 North Paca?
Mr. Rosen. That's right.
Mr. Rice. Phil's?
• Mr. Rosen. That's right.
Mr. Rice. The bank account there shows a number of large deposits
such as $2,000, $16,000, $1,400, $1,400, during the time that you were
there. Do you know what that money represented ?
Mr. Rosen. No.
Mr. Rice. You made deposits every day ?
Mr. Rosen. I did when I had the daytime job. Every day that the
bank was open I took the money down there, but Mr.- Schaeffer when
he took it down, I don't know how often he banked it.
Mr. Rice. Just tell us what that money was that was going in there.
Mr. Rosen. The money that I put in was the receipts from the bar.
Mr. Rice. How about the other money that was going in there?
Mr. Rosen. That I don't know nothing about.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever see Johnny Maddock around there?
Mr. Rosen. From the bar?
Mr. Rice. Have you seen him here today?
• Mr. Rosen. Yes ; I have.
. Mr. Rice. What did he have to do with it?
Mr. Rosen. Nothing outside of the bar.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever see him talking to Oppleman ?
Mr. Rosen. I have.
Mr. Rice. Did you see them together?
Mr. Rosen. I have seen them together. I mean it would be at the
bar <)]■ walk' around or go in the back room. I have never seen or heard
anything they talked about.
Mr. Rick. How frequently would Maddock be in there?
Mr. Rosen. Not frequently. In fact, the first 2 years I was there
T never saw him hardly. Very seldom even when I was daytime.
Mi-. Rice. That was when you were at night?
Mr. Rosen. At night I never saw him t here, never. Wouldn't even
know him.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 259
Mr. Rice. Now. during 1945 you came on and started working days,
didn't you, in the fall?
Mr. Rosen. Mid-forty-seven.
Mr. Rice. Forty-seven?
Mr. Rosen. Mid-forty-seven.
Mr. Rice. When did you leave there altogether?
Mr. Rosen. Two years ago.
Mr. Rice. I have a series of checks here, I wonder if you can help
us out on these. They are drawn on that account. Here is one drawn
December 13, 1945, on 'that Maryland Trust Co. account to Louis Levin-
son in the amount of $7,227, deposited in Newport, Ky.
Mr. Rosen. I don't know anything about it.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever hear anything about Louis Levinson ?
Mr. Rosen. Never heard of him.
Mr. Rice. Wouldn't know any reason wThy "Sleep Out Louie" would
be receiving $7,000 in Phil's Bar account?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir. That was all daytime ; I didn't know a thing
about it — what they were doing with my name during those 2y2 years.
I couldn't tell you. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Here is one on December 21, 1945, on the Phil's Bar
account on the Maryland Trust Co. in the amount of $4,000, drawn
to Phillips Bros. The endorsement shows Phillips Bros., by — it looks
like — I. P. Oppleman, deposited down in Lynchburg, Va.
Mr. Rosen. I couldn't tell you nothing about it.
Mr. Rice. Couldn't give us any help on that?
Mr. Rosen. Never heard it.
Mr. Rice. Here is another one on March 19, 1946, to Louis Levinson,
$10,000.
Mr. Rosen. As far as I know, they never carried that kind of money
on the account.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Rice, who signed these checks?
Mr. Rice. These are cashier's checks. Senator, that were obtained on
the Phil's Bar account at the bank in the Maryland Trust Co.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Rosen, that was your business. You had
charge of the bank account. Who was authorized to draw the money
out?^
Mr. Rosen. Mr. Schaeffer.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Schaeffer?
Mr. Rosen. He took care of all the business.
Senator Kefauver. Did you have any authority to draw money out ?
Mr. Rosen. I certainly did, but I never had occasion to.
Senator Kefauver. Did you ever?
Mr. Rosen. I did when we would get the license, I would sign that
check.
Senator Kefauver. That is the only check you signed ?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir. That is when I was night work. That was for
$1,000 went to the Maryland Liquor Board. That is the only checks
I signed.
Senator Kefauver. And all the rest of the account was handled by
Mr. Schaeffer?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir, definitely was.
Senator Kefauver. Has it been shown who Mr. Schaeffer was ?
Mr. Polski. He was the former licensee.
260 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. There is another check here to Louis Levinson for $10,000
in 1946. Two of the $10,000 checks to Louis Levinson are endorsed
633 News Service and deposited out there in Newport, Ky.
I think about a week ago, Mr. Chairman, we had some testimony
from Newport, Ky., about the 633 Club and "Sleep Out Louie" Levin-
son having a horse book establishment out there. There is a check
here for $10,000 dated May 31, 1946, drawn to Louis Dove, endorsed
b^y Louis Dove and deposited in the Riggs Bank here in Washington.
Mr. Rosen. I wouldn't know nothing about it.
Mr. Rice. Do you know who Louis is?
Mr. Rosen. Nothing at all . Never heard of him.
Mr. Rice. Never heard of him?
Mr. Rosen. Never heard of him.
Mr. Rice. Here is another one to a fellow by the name of Fred Wyse
drawn March 14, 1946, for $1,640 and deposited at the City National
Bank of Houston in the account of Fred Wyse. I understand he did
own a horse named Buzz-Fuzz.
Mr. Rosen. Don't know him.
Mr. I Iice. I am sorry, I am mistaken.
Senator Kefaxjver. Let the record show he doesn't know who owned
Buzz-Fuzz.
Mr. Rice. Now here is one to Morris Halpern for $20,000 drawn
July 2, 1940, and that is endorsed by Morris Halpern and Shephard
Klein and deposited in the Peoples Bank and Savings Co. in Cin-
cinnati. You don't know who those people are, either?
Mr. Rosen. That name Halpern is familiar, but you would have to
come after the mid-'47's before I would remember anything. I never
took anything down to the bank until mid- '47.
Senator Kefattver. You were in big-time business but you did not
know about it?
Mr. Rosen. I didn't know from nothing. Strictly a working man.
Senator Kefaxjver. Anything else, Mr. Rice ?
Mr. Rice. Yes. In 1948, you started working days, didn't you?
Mr. Rosen. I was daytime then; yes, sir.
Mr. Rick. Here are substantial checks running down through '48.
I wonder if you would take a look at some of these and see if you can
help us.
Senator Kefattver. Just keep your seat, Mr. Rosen. He will bring
them to you.
Mr. Rosen. All these checks I don't know nothing from them.
Mr. Rice. Take a look at the checks.
Mr. Rosen. Down to the bank a few times there between mid-'47
and the, time I left there.
Mr. Rice. Did you go down there one time and take a check or get a
check for Morris Halpern?
Mr. Rosen. That name is familiar.
Mr. Rice. Tell us about that.
Mr. Rosen. A few times he had given me money to go down
Mr. Rice. Who is he?
Mr. Rosen. Mr. Oppleman. He had given me money.
Mr. Rice. About how much?
Mr. Rosen. 1 don't remember the exact amount, two, three, four
thousand dollars.
Mr. Rice. In cash?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 261
Mr. Rosen. That's right.
Mr. Rice. Where did he get it?
Mr. Rosen. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Out of his pocket?
Mr. Rosen. 1 don't know. The last 2 years' business was very bad
and he would give me the money, say go down and make out a slip,
and on that slip was a name. I wouldn't remember the names if I
heard them, and the city on them. Go down and get a cashier's check.
Mr. Rice. Like Cincinnati '.
Mr. Rosen. I don't recall the exact name of the city, and I don't re-
call the names. And I would give the slip of paper to the man at
the bank and give him a quarter and he wrote out a cashier's check
or made out a check and give it to me, and I would give it to Mr.
Oppleinan.
Mr. Rice. You did not deliver it to Halpern ?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir. I give it to Mr. Oppleman.
Mr. Rice. Did you do any thinking about what this might be?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir ; not too much, not too much.
Mr. Rice. You did a little bit?
Mr. Rosen. I did my day's work and went home to my family. I
didn't mess with anything.
Mr. Rice. What would be your best guess about what that was?
Mr. Rosen. I don't know. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Rice. You just couldn't tell?
Mr. Rosen. I mean it is just one of them things. I don't know
from anything.
Mr. Rice. Well, we have totaled up the amount of the checks they
took out of there in 1947, and it comes to $197,000. That is far in
excess of what you were doing as licensee of the business. Didn't it
look to you like you ought to get some explanation ready about what
this was all about?
Mr. Rosen. He had told me once if anybody asks you about that,
he give me the money, that's all.
Mr. Rice. Anybody asked you about that ?
Mr. Rosen. Mr. Oppleman give me the money, that's all.
Mr. Rice. And you go to find him and he is gone. That is what it
amounts to, isn't it?
Mr. Rosen. I haven't see him in 2 years. Believe me when I tell you
that. From the day I left there I haven't laid eyes on him.
Mr. Rice. Did Johnny Maddock ever bring any checks in to be
cashed?
Mr. Rosen. Not to me.
Mr. Rice. Some were brought in there, though, weren't they ?
Mr. Rosen. I cashed some checks Mr. Oppleinan give me. When I
went down to make my deposits, I would
Mr. Rice. Did you distinguish between the ones to Maddock and
the other people ?
Mr. Rosen. No ; I wouldn't remember the names.
Mr. Rice. What would they be for, what sort of a transaction?
Mr. Rosen. What do you mean ?
Mr. Rice. What was Maddock getting checks cashed there for?
Mr. Rosen. I don't know whether he was getting checks cashed or
not. Mr. Oppleman give them to me. Maddock did not. I don't know
262 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
whose checks they were. Oppleman would give it to me and I would
take it down to the bank and cash it and give the money to < )ppleman.
Mr. Rice. Well, you would see his signature on the back, wouldn't
you?
.Mr. Rosen. 1 don't recall names.
Mr. Kick. Did you see some to Patty Clark '.
Mr. Rosen. Might have been.
Mr. Rice. Might have been \
Mr. Rosen. Might have been.
Mr. Rice. Do you know who Patty Clark is?
Mr. Rosen. I do.
Mr. Rice. Did he come in with Maddock?
Mr. Rosen; No; he used to come in the bar once in a while.
Mr. Rice. With Oppleman?
Mr. Rosen. As a customer.
Mr. Rick. When Oppleman would leave there in the afternoon,
where would he go?
Mr. Rosen. Thai is something I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Where would he leave a telephone to get in touch with
him, what telephone?
Mr. Rosen. Once he give me a Laurel number.
Mr. Rice. Some number out there in Laurel. Did you ever call
him out there?
Mr. Rosen. T had occasion maybe once or twice.
Mr. Rice. Maddock answered the phone?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Patty Clark?
Mr. Rosen. I wouldn't recognize any voices.
Mr. Rick. Wouldn't recognize?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir.
Mr. Hick. Did you get a hold of Oppleman out there sometimes?
Mr. Rosen. Just once or twice as I remember. Something came up
in the bar and I called him and got in touch with him.
Mr. Rice. Is that the place where the police raided it around
Christmas time \
Mr. Rosen. I couldn't tell you what place it was, the exact place. I
don't know.
Mr. Rice. I don't think I have any further questions.
Senator Keeauver. Senator Hunt?
Senator Hunt. No questions.
Senator Keeauver. What are you doing now, Mr. Rosen?
Mr. Rosen. Upholstering.
Senator Kefauver. What haj^pened when you went out of busi-
ness with these people?
Mr. Rosen. He just called up there one day and says. "Myer, I am
selling the place. Come on with me." — out of a clear sky. I went
with liini up to the lawyer, signed it over, and that was that.
Senator Kefauver. He called and said he was selling your place?
Mi-. Rosen. He was selling the place. He was the boss. I mean I
had no say-so there.
Senator Kefauver. You had the license, didn'1 you?
Mr. Rosen. I don't work that way. If he said he wanted to sell
the place, it wTas his place. He had a rijrht to do with it what he
wanted.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 263
Senator Kefauver. What did he give you when he sold it?
Mr. Rosen. Nothing. Two weeks' pay I had coming. Give cae
$200 and I had 2 weeks' pay coining.
Senator Kefauver. "When you signed up for the license, didn't you'
have to sign that you were the owner \
Mr. Rosen. That's right. That's the mistake I made.
Senator Kefauver. Did you get a Federal license to it, too ?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir; all bars have.
Senator Kefauver. Wholesale?
Mr. Rosen. Not wholesale, retail.
Senator Kefauver. Federal retail license?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. State retail license?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. City retail license '.
Mr. Rosen. A trader's license, I think they have for that.
Senat or Kefauver. you did not have a gambling casino ?
Mr. Rosen. Nothing whatsoever. That place was as clean as a pin.
Even Mr. Oppleman if somebody would come in with a scrateh sheet,
he saj^s, "Tell that man to take that scrateh sheet off the bar." That
place was clean, believe me when I tell you that, because he wouldn't
jeopardize his license to haVe anything going on in the bar. That
place was strictly clean.
Mr. Rice. How about these paper bags he would bring in with
small bills in them?
Mr. Rosen. There was a bag he would give me some money to take
down and get a cashier's check.
Mr. Rice. Every once in a while he would come in with a paper
bag that had fives and tens in it ?
Mr. Rosen. Sometimes it was. A few times it was big bills, other
times small bills.
Mr. Rice. "What were the biggest bills?
Mr. Rosen. Hundred-dollar. :
Mr. Rice. Hundred-dollar bills ?
Mr. Rosen. As far as I remember.
Mr. Rice. Sometimes he would bring in a bag full of just fives
and tens?
Mr. Rosen. That was just a few times. I mean you can check back
on these checks and tell how many times I got these, and then again
he might have sent somebody down there to get some of these cashier's
checks without me knowing it. He could have sent the bartender,
the barmaid down there. They knew Phil's Bar, that's all.
Senator Kefauver. What do you think all this money was for?
Mr. Rosen. I don't know : didn't give it a thought.
Senator Kefauver. You weren't supposed to think about it ?
Mr. Rosen. 1 wasn't supposed to. J just don't think, that's tin
trouble.
Senator Kefauver. All right, that is all, Mr. Rosen.
Is Mr. Oppleman here?
Mr. Rice. I would certainly like to talk to Mr. Oppleman, Senator,
but wre do not seem to be able to find him.
Johnny Maddock ?
Mr. O'Connell. Mr. Maddock was here until the committee re-
cessed. I have a letter here.
264 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Kefattver. Mr. Rosen asked that he not have his picture
taken. I am not directing anybody, but I would be very happy if the
pictures made were not used. At least I ask that they not be.
This is re Mr. John Maddock :
The above patienl has been under my care for a recurrent active duodenal
ulcer and lias recently been hospitalized, and discharged.
Today he reported to this office and because of his condition at this time, we
find it necessary to hospitalize bini again. He is in much pain and passing
blood.
If any further information is desired, please contact this office.
Sincerely yours,
Maukice Mensh, M. D.,
1730 I Street, NW, Washington.
Mr. O'Connell. I might suggest to the Senator
Senator Kefattver. What is your name, sir?
Mr. O'Connell. T. Edward O'Connell of the Washington, D. C,
bar.
The last time Mr. Maddock was before the committee, thereafter
he was confined to the hospital for 3 days for the same illness, and I
volunteer that the Senate may appoint any doctor you feel free to and
we will waive any objection we might have to it, and that doctor may
examine Mr. Maddock.
Senator Kefattver. All right, Mr. O'Connell, we will have someone
examine your client, Mr. Maddock, and it will be satisfactory to con-
tact you relative to the time and place.
Mr. O 'Cox nell. Very good, sir.
Mr. Rice. Mr. O'Connell, where is he now?
Mr. O'Connell. George Washington Hospital.
Mr. Rice. He is in the hospital ?
Mr. O'Connell. Right now.
Mr. Rice. Was he here this morning?
Mr. O'Connell. He was here until the committee recessed.
Senator Kefauver. This morning we had a medical certificate
about Mr. Sapperstein, August 7, 1951. Senator Hunt, will you read
this?
Senator Hunt. This certification is dated August 7, 1951. It is
addressed :
To Whom It May Concern:
This is to certify that I have examined and treated Mr. Ike Sapperstein, age
50, 4119 Roarman Avenue, Baltimore, Md., on August 6, 1951, and that he is to
come in for further treatment because of a rather severe situational depression
and a severe neurosis of the obsessive and anxiety type.
It is my opinion that any court procedure such as an investigation procedure,
which lie believes he is to undergo again, should be postponed for at least 10
lays to 2 weeks. "We feel that with intensive psychotherapy he will be able to
proceed with any situations that may be needed and that be will make a fairly
satisfactory adjustment to his problems. Certainly any attempt to force this
man to undergo such investigation procedure at this time, is dangerous to his
well-being and may cause him serious consequences from a nervous and emo-
tional standpoint.
It is signed Philip Lerner, M. D.
Senator Kefauver. That does not appear to be a satisfactory medi-
cal certificate. We will direct the staff to have someone examine Mr.
Sapperstein, and unless they find a more serious condition than set
forth in this medical certificate, order him to be here at 10 o'clock
tomorrow morning.
Who is next? Is Mr. Aaronson here.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 265
Mr. Aaronson, do you solemnly -wear that the testimony you give
the committee will be the whole truth, so help you God?
(The witness nodded in the affirmative.)
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Aaronson, you are represented by?
Mr. Harrington. T. Barton Harrington and Bernard C. O'Sullivan.
Senator Kefauver. Mr, Aaronson, your first name is Samuel?
TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL AARONSON, BALTIMORE, MD., ACCOM-
PANIED BY T. BARTON HARRINGTON AND BERNARD C. O'SULLI-
VAN, ATTORNEYS, BALTIMORE, MD.
Mr. Aaronson. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Speak up, sir.
Mr. Aaronson. Yes. sir.
Senator Kefauver. How old are you, sir?
Mr. Aaronson. Thirty-nine.
Senator Kefauver. Where do you live?
Mr. Aaronson. Baltimore, Aid.
Senator Kefauver. What is your street address?
Mr. Aaronson. 2719 Cylburn Avenue.
Mr. Stathis. Do you have any interest in the Blue Mirror, Mr.
Aaronson?
Mr. Aaronson. I am the sole owner of the Blue Mirror.
Mr. Stathis. What is your interest? Is the Blue Mirror a cor-
poration or is it a partnership?
Mr. Aaronson. I own the Blue Mirror myself.
Air. Stathis. You haven't answered the question. I asked you
whether it was a corporation or a partnership.
Air. A aronson. No partnership. I am the sole owner.
Mr. Stathis. You still haven't answered my question.
Senator Kefauver. Counsel, I think he probably misunderstands
your question. As I understand it, you individually are the sole
owner ?
Air. Aaronson. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. You have no incorporation and you have no
partnership ?
Mr. Aaronson. That is right, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Where is the Blue Mirror located. Air. Aaronson?
Mr. Aaronson. 929 North Charles Street in Baltimore, Md.
Mr. Stathis. Do you know the number of shares of stock that are
outstanding ?
Mr. Harrington. Senator Kefauver, the man has told you it is not
a corporation. There are no shares' of stock.
Senator Kefauver. Air. Stathis, is it your information that it is a
corporation ?
Air. Stathis. I asked Air. Aaronson if it were a corporation or not.,
and he has not answered my question.
Senator Kefauver. He said he was the sole owner.
Air. Stathis. He can be the sole owner and be doing business under
a trade name. You ran be the sole owner and be doing business as
a corporation. Which is it?
Mr. Sullivan. Air. Chairman, certainly not.
Senator Kefauver. What did you say, Air. O'Sullivan?
266 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. O'Si u.i\ \\. Certainly not. You cairt be a sole owner if it is
a corporation. It is a separate entity.
Mr. Stathis. If he is the sole stockholder of the corporation he is
cei tainly the sole owner of it.
Mr. O'Si 1. 1. ivax. He is not. If yon check the law in corporations,
you will find that.
Senator Kefauver. There is no need in having an argument about
i his. As 1 understand it, you own the business in your own name as
an individual and you have no corporation, no partnership.
Mr. Aakonson. That is exactly correct, sir.
Senator Kefauver. You have no shares of stock in connection with
ii>
Mr. Aakonson. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. You just own the bar, whatever it is?
Mr. Aakonson. That is right.
Mr. Stathis. That is the point that I wish to clarify. Now what
kind of business is it. Mi-. Aaronson \
Mr. Aakonson. A cocktail lounge.
Mr. Stathis. When did you buy the business?
Mr. Aakonson. In February of 1950.
Mr. Stathis. From whom did you buy the business?
Mr. Aaronson. Mi-. Reese. I think it was a corporation. I don't
remember just how they were set up. Mr. Reese. Mr. Birnbaum, I
think that is what his name is. Murray Reese.
Mr. Stathis. Murray Reese?
Mr. Aakonson. Yes.
Mr. Stathis. Was there an individual named James X. Georges
involved in that corporation?
Mr. Aakonsox. I say I think it was a corporation. I just forget
(lie other names they had on it, sir.
Mr. Stathis. But you bought it on February 6, 1950?
Mr. Aaronson. I don't remember the exact date. It was in Febru-
ary . sir.
Mr. Stathis. How much did you pay for the business?
Mr. Aakonsox. $20,000 phis the stock.
Mr. Stathts. You paid how much?
Mr. Aakonson. $20,000 plus the stock.
Mr. Stathis. How much did you pay for the stock?
Mr. Aaronson. I don't remember at this time, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Well, give me an approximate figure.
Mi-. Aaronson. I can't remember at this time. sir.
Mr. Stathis. But you bought it sometime in February 1950. That
approximately only a year and a half ago, and you are a successful
businessman, and vet you claim that you can't remember how much
money you paid for the stock ?
Mr. Aakonson. It wasn't too much. I say I don't remember the
exact amount.
Mr. Stathis. I don't want the exact amount. I want you to give
me .in approximate amount.
Mr. Aaronson. I think it was around thirty-seven hundred dollars.
Mr. Stathis. Around $3,700?
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Stathis, what stock is he talking about, the
merchandise on hand?
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 267
Mr. Statiiis. Yes: that is what T meant, the merchandise on hand.
Mr. Aaroxson. Yes.
Mr. Stathis. AJboul thirty-seven hundred?
Mr. Aaronson. Something like that,
Mr. Stathis. So that you paid for it approximately $23,700. Now
when you boughl it the business was in the form of a corporation, is
that right? I think you have testified that when you bought it from
a certain Mr. Reese
Mr. Aaronson. I said before I think they were a corporation. I
am not sure now. Mr. Reese, I remember him because I transacted
business with him, but I think I remember the name you mentioned
before. Was it a Georges or George, or something? I think his
name was on the corporation. I am not sure.
Mr. Stathis. Was it a corporation or wasn't it at that time?
Mr. Aaronson. I said I thought it was.
Mr. Stathis. You thought it was ?
Mr. Aaronson. That is right.
Mr. Stathis. Who represented you in the transaction?
Mr. Aaroxson. Pardon me ?
Mr. Stathis. Did any attorneys represent you in that transaction?
Mr. Aaroxson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Who were the attorneys?
Mr. Aaronson. Mr. Oscar Zenitz was my attorney.
Mr. Stathis. He is not here right now \
Mr. Aaronson. No, sir.
Mr. Stathis, When you paid about $23,700 for the business, you
say that you assume it was in the form of a corporation. Now what
was it that was transferred to }'ou, the shares of stock?
Mr. Aaronson. I don't remember that at all, sir. I answered you
I thought I bought it from a corporation. I am most sure I did, but
how this settlement transpired and all that, I don't know. Everything
is on record.
Mr. Stathis. What is on record ? Exactly what is on record '.
Mr. Aaronson. Exactly the settlement. It is all a legitimate deal.
It went through a lawyer, got the necessary paper and the necessary
procedure was gone through.
Mr. Stathis. This transaction only transpired about a year and a
half ago and yet you come in here at this time and you tell me that
you don't remember whether or not when you bought the business it
was being conducted as a corporation or a partnership. Do you expect
us to believe that, Mr. Aaronson ?
Mr. Aaronson. I wasn't too interested in the stock or in the corpo-
ration or how it was. My lawyer took care of all that. I don't remem-
ber that, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Where did you get the $23,700 ?
Mr. Aaronson. Will you phrase that question again, sir ?
Mr. Stathis. Where did you get the $23,700 ?
Mr. Aaroxox. Well, I went to a friend of mine and asked him if he
could not help me out — a longtime friend of mine.
Mr. Stathis. Who was that long-time friend '.
Mr. Aaroxsox. What is that?
Mr. Stathis. Who was that long-time friend '.
Mr. Aaroxson. Mr. Sapperstein.
Mr. Stathis. Mr. Sapperstein '.
268 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Aaronson. That's right, and he thought it over for a while.
I thought ii \\ as a very good proposition. I wanted to go in business
and he said he would see what he could do forme.
Mr. Stathis. What did you say to Mr. Sapperstein ?
Mr. Aaronson. What is that '.
Mr. Stathis. What did you say to Mr. Sapperstein \
Mr. Aaronson. What is that \
Mr. Statu is. What did you say to Mr. Sapperstein?
Mr. Aaronson. Well, I wanted to go in business and I thought the
Blue Mirror was a very good buy at that price, and I thought I could
make some money, and 1 would appreciate it very much if he would
give me some help. We had been friends for a long, long time, and he
said he would think ii over.
Mr. Stathis. How long have you known Mr. Sapperstein ?
Mr. Aaronson. Oh, 1 have known Mr. Sapperstein, I guess practi-
cally all my life, I guess.
Mr. Stathis. Did you know him in 1935?
Mr. Aaronson. Pardon me?
Mr. Stathis. You have known him practically all your life?
Mr. Aaronson. Well, when I say that I mean pretty long time.
Mr. Stathis. Well, how long ?
Mr. Aaronson. 1 guess about — I can't say how long. Maybe 15, 16
years — 17. I don't know now.
Mr. Stathis. You have known him for 15, 16, or 17 years; and as
I understand it. you explained the situation to Mr. Sapperstein and
he agreed with you that the Blue Mirror was a very good buy; is that
correct \
Mr. O'Sullivan. Mr. Chairman, honestly he has not said that and
I know we are not before a court, but he has not said that.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. O'Sullivan, I think the testimony was that
he bought the Blue Mirror
Mr. O'Sullivan. That is true. Mr. Chairman ; that is true-
Senator Kefatjver. Just a minute. He thought it was a good buy
and he explained it to Mr. Sapperstein and Mr. Sapperstein let him
have the money.
Mr. O'Sullivan. He has not -aid that at all.
Senator Kefauver. Well. then what is the truth aboutit?
Mr. Aaronson. The counselor interrupted me before I could finish.
Mr. Stathis. That is what I want to know.
Senator Kefauver. You go on in your own way and tell about it.
Mr. Aaronson. I went to Mr. Sapperstein and asked him if he
could not help me out. and being friends I thought he would do it
for me. He said he would think it over. In the meanwhile I under-
stand I here were several people trying to buy the place, and I thought
it had a lot of possibilities and I told him to look it over and look
around. After he did, he says. "Well, I will try to help you."
I went to the Union Trust Co. and consummated a loan, and Mr.
Sapperstein was the endorser of the loan to me. It was taken care
of. as I -aid, through the Union Trust Co. of Baltimore, Md.
Mr. STATHIS. The money was lent to you by what trust company?
Mr. Aaronson. The Union Trust Co.
Mr. Stathis. The Union Trust Co. of Baltimore, Md.?
Mr. Aaronson. Fes, sir.
Mr. Srvi HIS. And did you sign a note for I he money '.
Mr. A vronson. Yes, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 269
Mr. Stathis. And was Mr. Sapperstein a comaker of the note or
was lie an accommodat ion endorser '.
Mr. Aaronson. He endorsed the note.
Mr. Stathis. Did lie endorse it as a comaker or as an accommoda-
tion endorser?
Senator Kefauver. Did lie put his name on the back of it or on the
front of it (
Mr. Aaronson. I tell you the truth. I wouldn't know. All I know
is he endorsed the note ; stood good for me, I guess it means that. I
wouldn't know about the front or the back, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Well, what did Mr. Sapperstein get in return for
endorsing the note?
Mr. Aaronson. Nothing at all, sir.
Mr. Stathis. You gave him no security whatsoever for a loan?
Mr. Aaronson. Well, he has that note on the place. In the event I
don't pay the bank or anything would happen, the Union Trust Co.
could very easily foreclose on me, sir.
Mr. Stathis. But what recourse did he have against .you — did you
say foreclose against you?
Mr. Aaronson. No. I said the bank could foreclose on me and get
the money and pay the note off on me.
Mr. Stathis. But what security did you give Mr. Sapperstein ? He
was comaker of the note. Did you give him any security? He lent
you the money.
Mr. Aaronson. Well, he has a chattel mortgage on it.
.Mr. Stathis. He has a chattel mortgage on the property?
Mr. Aaronson. Yes, sir. On what, sir?
Mr. Stathis. He has a chattel mortgage on what, the Blue Mirror?
Mr. Aaronson. On the Blue Mirror?
Mr. Stathis. On the fixtures of the Blue Mirror I
Mr. Aaronson. The Blue Mirror, the cocktail lounge, what it took
in. everything there.
Mr. Stathis. How much of the loan has been repaid?
Mr. Aaronson. Will you phrase thai question again, sir?
Mr. Stathis. How much of the loan has been repaid ? How much
of the sum of Si':;.7<)0 has been repaid?
Mr. Aaronson. Well, I haven't been able to pay part of the loan
back while I was — up to the present.
Mr. Stathis. You have not repaid any part of the loan?
Air. Aaronsox". No. I was just struggling trying to make ends
meet and build it up. I wasn't able to pay any back. Just the in-
terest I paid to the bank so far.
Mr. Stathis. What are your gross receipts weekly from the
business?
(Discussion off the record between Mr. Aaronson and Mr. Har-
rington.)
Senator Kefauver. Let us get on. Give us the best estimate you
can. how much you take in every week.
Mr. Aaronson. It averages about eight thousand a month gross.
That is gross, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Eight thousand a month?
Mr. Aaronson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stathis. A month or a week?
^"L'TT— 51— pt. 17 18
270 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Aaronson. i said a month, sir.
.Mr. Stathis. Eighl thousand dollars a month?
Mr. Aaronson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stathis. You have been running the business for a year and
a half?
Mr. AARONSON. Yes, sir.
Mi-. Stathis. And you have not been able to pay back
Mr. AARONSON. It is not exactly a year and a half.
Mr. Stathis. Well, approximately?
Mr. Aaronson. Well, I was dosed about a month in February try-
ingto fix the place up a little bit.
Mr. Stathis. Dm yen grossed $8,000 a month and vet you haven't
been able to pay hack SI on a loan of $23,700?
Mr. Aaronson. Well, I could answer that.
Mr. Stathis. Isn't it a fact. Mr. Aaronson, that you are only the
nominal owner of the business and Mr. Sapperstein is the real party
in interest '.
Mr. Aaronson. No. sir; he is not. I am. I am doing all the work,
responsibility. Everything is on me, sir. I am the sole owner of that
business absolutely.
Mr. Stathis. You admit that you are in debt to him in the sum of
s-j.-,.7hii/
Mr. ( )'Si eijvax. Tie did not.
Mr. Aaronson. I did not.
Mr. O'Si leivan. Mr. Chairman, I must respectfully submit that
counsel not put words in the witness' mouth.
Senator Ki.i.u \ kr. All right, Mr. O'Sullivan.
Mr. Stathis. Has the Baltimore bank that lent you the money ever
asked you for any payments?
Mr. Aaronson. What bank \
Mr. Stathis. The Baltimore bank which lenl youthemoney.
Mr. Aaronson. You mean the Union Trust Co.?
Mr. Stathis. The Union Trust Co., yes. Have they pressed you?
Mr. Aaronson. They have not bothered me for the payment for the
simple reason I have been paying my interest and. well,* that is about
all. They haven't bothered me for it.
Mr. Stathis. Do they have a chattel mortgage on the property,
too \ How ist heir loan secured \
Mr. Aaronson. Well, they have, as I told you before, Mr. Sapper-
stein was endorser of the note, and they have whatever security he
put up to back it up.
Mr. Stathis. But the}- have no chattel mortgage on the propert v
whatsoever.
Mr. A \i:o\m,n. AVell.T don't have anything to do with the property,
jus! the business. The property belongs to someone else.
Mr. Stathis. The property belongs to somebody else?
Mr. Aaronson. The property, the buildings.
Mr. Stvi ins. I mean the fixtures and the business. Does the bank
have a chattel mortgage on that '.
Mr. AARONSON. Mr. Sapperstein has a chattel mortgage. The bank
has whatever security Mr. Sapperstein endorsed for me.
Mr. Stathis. Hov many telephones do you have in the Blue Mirror?
Mr. Aaronson. We have a public telephone, that is one, on the
left-hand side of the bar going in. and I have some phone extensions —
what do you mean, sir? Exactly what do you mean?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 271
Mr. Stathis. J asked von for the number of phones you have. Give
mo the number of phones you ha ve.
Mr. Aaronson. I have the phone booth and two telephones there,
one line.
Mr. Stathis. What is the number? I want the number of the
phone. The telephone number.
Mr. Aaronson. Mulberry 071 1.
Mr. Stathis. Now, is that the public phone I
Mr. Aaronson. You asked me for the phone numbers; didmt you?
Mr. Stathis. Yes. Which one does this represent '.
Mr. Aaronson. That is one of the phones that we use, the Blue
Mirror phone, Mulberry 0711, the office phone.
Mr. Stathis. That is the office phone \
Mr. Aaronson. Yes, sir ; and there is a Mulberry 7347 listing.
Mr. Stathis. That is the public phone?
Mr. Aaronson. No, sir.
Mr. Stathis. What is that? Is that an office phone also?
Mr. Aaronson. That is an office phone.
Mr. Stathis. You have two office phones?
Mr. Aaronson. Both on one telephone, on one instrument, I mean.
In other words, if someone calls you hold them and we can still make
a call out. The help sometimes use it and we go to the other phone.
The pay phone is Plaza 9626.
Mr. Stathis. Do you rent just the store premises or do you rent the
whole building?
Mr. Aaronson. What is that again ? Do I rent the what ?
Mr. Stathis. Do you rent the store premises alone or do you rent
the whole building?
Mr. Aaronson. Just the downstairs premises that I have.
Mr. Stathis. Who rents the upstairs floors?
Mr. Aaronson. They have apartments up there, I don't know the
people. I think there is, I guess, about 9 or 10 apartments up there, I
think. I have never been upstairs.
Mr. Stathis. Who pays the bills for the phone, Mulberry 7347 ?
Mr. Aaronson. Who pays the bills ?
Mr. Stathis. Yes.
Mr. Aaronson. I do.
Mr. Stathis. You pay the bills ?
Mr. Aaronson. Yes.
Mr. Stathis. Or does the company ? Do you sign
Mr. Aaronson. There isn't any company.
Mr. Stathis. You sign the checks with your own name?
Mr. Aaronson. That is right.
Mr. Stathis. Do you know an individual named Johnny Brown ?
Mr. Aaronson. Pardon me ?
Mr. Stathis. Johnny Brown?
Mr. Aaronson. Johnny Brown ?
Mr. Stathis. Yes.
Mr. Aaronson. I certainly do. He is an agent who books my
shows.
Mr. Stathis. And where is Johnny Brown located?
Mr. Aaronson. In New York City.
Mr. Stathis. Do you know whether or not Mr. Sapperstein ever
made any telephone calls from that phone. Mulberry 7347 \
272 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Aaronson. Well, T guess he did. Come in the place like any-
one else', frequents the place. Lots of people use my phone. I let
them use the phone as a courtesy of the place like buying a drink of
whisky. If the phone booth is taken, I extend them the courtesy of
ma king the call. It is in front of the checkroom.
_ Mr. Stathis. If there is a public phone in the place, wouldn't it be
just as convenient for them to use the phone in the public booth?
_ Mr. Aaronson. I just told yon that when the phone is busy some-
times, which it is, it is a very busy telephone, that pay phone, people
always trying to get in there, fellows and girls and all, and people
1 know I extend them the courtesy of using the other phone.
Mr. Stathis. Do you know whether or not Mr. Sapperstein ever
made any calls to Miami from that phone?
Mr. Aaronson. I don't know.
Mr. Stathis. Do yon know whether or not any parties ever called
Mr. Sapperstein from Miami?
Mr. Aaronson. Anybody what?
Mr. Stathis. If any parties from Miami ever telephoned Mr. Sap-
perstein at that number.
Mr. Aaronson. Not to my knowledge, I don't know. A call might
come m, somebody say, "Pick up the phone, Joe, Harrv," whoever is
there.
Mr. Stathis. The records of the telephone company show from
April 24 to May 21, 1951, Mr. Sapperstein accepted eight collect calls
from .Miami at thai number.
Mr. Aaronson. Phrase that again, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Let me rephrase the question. The records of the
telephone company show that from April 24 to May 21, 1951 an in-
dividual named Kid Wendell
Mr. Aaronson. Who ?
-Mr. Stathis. Kid Wendell— W-e-n-d-e-1-1— that is Mr. Sapper-
stein's alias.
Mr. Aaronson. I don't know anything about any alias.
Senator Kefauver. Let's not get into the alias until we show that
there is an alia-.
Mr. Stathis. Have you ever known Mr. Sapperstein to be called
by thai name?
Mr. Aaronson. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Stathis. You have known him 1G or IT years, von so testified.
Mi'. Aaronson. That is right.
•Mi'. Stathis. Did you ever know whether or not he was a boxer,
a prize fighter?
Mr. Aaronson. Well, he is much older than I am.
Senator Kefatjver. I can't hear you.
Air. Aaronson. He is much older than T am. I think that is before
my lime, before 1 knew him. He is 50 years old now. I am only 39.
Mr. Stathis. Have you ever heard whether or not he was a boxer?
Mr. A \i;n\so\. Maybe somebody made a remark to that effect. I
didn't pay too much attention.
.Mr. Stathis. I didn't hear you.
Mr. Aaronson. I don't remember exactly because I haven't paid
too much attenl ion. I think I saw it in the paper.
Mr. Stathis. V,,m have seen it in the paper ?
Mr. Aaronson. Once, yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 273
Mr. Stathis. Do you recall the name under which lie fought?
Mr. Aaronson. No.
Mr. Stathis. You don't recall. Well, could it have been Kid Wen-
dell ? Could this possibly have been the name '.
Mr. Aaronson. I don't know. It could have been any name.
Mr. Stathis. But that name isn't familiar to you?
Mr. Aaronson. Not xvvy familiar to me; no.
Mr. Stathis. You knew Mr. Sapperstein well enough to get him
to lend you $23,700 ?
Mr. Aaronson. Yes.
Mr. Stathis. And you never knew whether or not lie was a boxer;
is that correct?
Senator Kefauver. Did you or not, Mr. Aaronson?
Mr. Aaronson. No; I didn't. I didn't know Sapperstein that long
ago, didn't know how long he was fighting. It must have been before
my time.
Mr. Stathis. Did you ever work for Mr. Sapperstein?
Mr. Aaronson. No, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Did you ever operate an adding machine? Can you
operate an adding machine ?
Mr. Aaronson. Can I operate an adding machine?
Mr. Stathis. Do you know how to operate an adding machine ?
Mr. Aaronson. Just enough to do my little work around the office,
maybe just to find a key or so, very, very little.
]\Ir. Stathis. Do you know whether or not Mr. Sapperstein was in
the numbers business in 1935 ?
Mr. Aaronson. Don't know anything about his business.
Mr. Stathis. Do you know whether or not he was associated with
Mr. Benny Ginsberg at that time?
Mr. Aaronson. Don't know anything about it.
Mr. Stathis. Do you know Mr. Benny Ginsberg?
Mr. Aaronson. I don't recall the name.
Mr. Stathis. You don't recall the name?
Mr. Aaronson. No, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Have you ever heard the name ?
Mr. Aaronson. I have heard of a lot of Ginsbergs. I don't know
if it is the one or not.
Mr. Stathis. Have you ever heard of Benny Ginsberg? You are
being very uncooperative, Mr. Aaronson.
Mr. Aaronson. Pardon me ?
Mr. Stathis. You are being very uncooperative.
Mr. Aaronson. I don't think so.
Mr. Stathis. You ought to know whether or not you have ever
heard of Benny Ginsberg.
Mr. Aaronson. I have answered every question you have asked me,
sir.
Mr. Stathis. Do you know whether or not in 1935 Mr. Benny Gins-
berg and Mr. Ike Sapperstein were running a numbers headquarters
on the first floor rear of a building on the corner of Lafayette Avenue
and Fulton Avenue in Baltimore ?
Mr. Aaronson. Don't know anything about it.
Mr. Stathis. You don't know anything about it?
Mr. Aaronson. No, sir.
274 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Stathis. Do you recall ever having worked for them as an
operator of adding machines at that numbers headquarters?
Mr. Aaronson. I answered that before; I never worked for them.
Mr. Stathis. Have you ever been convicted of a crime, Mr.
Aaronson?
Mr. Aaronson. No, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Have you ever been indicted for a crime?
Mr. Aaronson. Pardonme? Ever been indicted ?
Mr. Stathis. Yes. Have you ever been arrested?
Mr. Aaronson. I think years ago for disorderly conduct, some small
thing. I don't remember what it was for, so long ago. Long time
ago.
Senator Kepauver. It has been a long time ago. Pass on.
Mr. Stathis. How many times were you arrested \
Mr. Aaronson. That is the only time.
Mr. Stathis. The only time. When did you stop working for
George Goldberg?
Mr. Harrington. He didn't say he worked for George Goldberg.
I think that is an unfair statement, an unfair question.
Senator Kefauver. Let the question be: Did he work for George
Goldberg?
Mr. Stathis. Did you ever work for George Goldberg?
Senator Kefauver. Did you say you did not work for him?
Mr. Aaronson. 1 did not.
Mr. Stathis. Isn't it true that prior to the time you were inducted
into the Army Mr. George Goldberg was running a numbers operation
in Baltimore and you worked for him at that time?
Mr. Aaronson. Don't know anything about it.
Mr. Stathis. Well, if somebody testified to that effect, would he be
telling the truth (
Senator Kefauver. He said he didn't know anything about it.
Mr. Stathis. When were you discharged from the Army, Mr.
Aaronson ?
Mr. Aaronson. I think it was November 1945.
Mr. Stathis. You were discharged November — I beg your pardon?
Mr. Aaronson. Sir?
Mr. Stathis. Will you repeat that, please?
Mr. Aaronson. I think it was November L945. The exact date I
don't know.
Mr. Stathis. Some time in November 1945. At the time that you
were discharged didn't Mr. Goldberg give you $5,000?
Mr. Aaronson. Goldberg never gave me anything at all.
Senator Kefauver. What is your answer. Mr. Aaronson?
Mr. Aaronson. Didn't give me any money at all.
Mr. Stathis. Do you know Mr. Goldberg?
Mr. Aaronson. Seen him around.
Mr. Stathis. How often?
Mr. Aaronson. Haven't seen him for a longtime.
Mr. Stathis. Does he ever come to the Blue Mirror?
Mr. Aaronson. He hasn't been to the Blue Mirror.
Mr. Stathis. Speak louder.
Mr. Aaronson. To my knowledge I don't think' he has ever been
t here, unless he was there while I wasn't on duty.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 275
Mr. Stathis. Have you ever seen him in the Blue Mirror?
Mr. Aaronson. No.
Mr. Stathis. Would you know him if you saw him?
Mr. Aaronson. I know him try sight, have seen him.
Mr. Stathis. Isn't it true that upon your discharge from the Army
in November of 1945, or shortly thereafter, you had an argument with
Mr. Goldberg?
Mr. Aaronson. I don't know anything about that.
Mr. Stathis. You don't know anything about it?
Mr. Aaronson. That is right.
Mr. Stathis. You don't recall that at all ?
Mr. Aaronson. No, sir.
Mr. State is. Have you ever taken bets on horses ?
Mr. Aaronson. I refuse to answer that question, sir.
Mr. Stathis. I beg your pardon?
Mr. Aaronson. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds it
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stathis. Would it tend to incriminate you of a Federal or
State offense ?
Mr. Aaronson. Federal.
Mr. Stathis. What Federal offense?
Mr. Aaronson. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the same
grounds, it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stathis. You refuse to answer whether or not it will incrimi-
nate you of a State or Federal offense? I want to get that clear,
Mr. Aaronson.
Mr. Aaronson. I answered that before, sir. Is that the same ques-
tion you asked ?
Mr. Stathis. Do you refuse to answer whether or not it would
incriminate you of a State or Federal offense? That is the point
I want to clarify.
Mr. Aaronson. Federal.
Mr. Stathis. AVhat Federal offense ?
Mr. Aaronson. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Stathis. Well, is it just a mere fanciful claim of privilege that
you are asserting, or do you feel you are in real danger of incriminat-
ing yourself ?
Mr. Aaronson. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Stathis. On what grounds?
Mr. Aaronson. Same ground, sir.
Mr. Stathis. What grounds?
Mr. Aaronson. It may tend to incriminate me. sir.
Mr. Stathis. Under a State or Federal offense ?
Mr. Aaronson. I have just answered that before, sir.
Mr. Stathis. You have answered it before for previous questions.
I want you to answer for this specific question.
Senator Kefauver. He said it would tend to incriminate him under
a Federal offense.
Mr. Stathis. Did you ever do business with Mike Barshak ?
Mr. Aaronson. I refuse to answer the question, sir, on the ground-
that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stathis. Incriminate you of a Federal or State offense ?
Mr. Aaronson. On the same grounds, sir.
276 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. S. athis. Well, are you in real danger of incriminating your-
self or is this a mere fanciful claim of privilege ?
Mr. Aar< ixson. I refuse to answer t hat.
Mi-. Sivrms. On what grounds?
Mr. Aaronson. On the same grounds.
Mr. Stathis. Do you know Mike Barshak?
Mr. A ironson. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Stathis. On what grounds?
Mr. Aaronson. Same grounds, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Aaronson, I will have to direct you to an-
swer whether you know the man or not.
Mr. Aaronson. I know him.
Mr. Statu is. Now you know Mike Barshak. How well do you
know him? , . . ,,
Mr. Aaronson. 1 refuse to answer the question, sir, on the same
11 Mr. Stathis. Well, I would like to ask the Chair to direct him to
answer that question.
Senator Kefauver. Ask a different question.
Mr. Stathis. Do you know whether or not Mr. Barshak ever took
hets on horses (
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Aaronson, did you do business with Mr.
Barshak and do vou want to answer that question or not?
Mr. Aaronson. I refuse to answer that, sir, on the grounds that it
may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Kefauver. Of a Federal offense?
Mr. Aaronson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Have vou ever lived at the Hotel Emerson ».
Mr. Aaronson. I refuse to answer that. I decline to answer that,
sir, on the same grounds.
Senator Kefauver. I will have to direct you to answer the question.^
Living at (lie Hotel Emerson, I can't see that it would tend to incrimi-
nate you. It is a very respectable hotel.
Mr. Aaronson. I decline to answer.
Mr. Statins. On what grounds, sir?
Mr. Aaronson. Same grounds, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Do you know whether Mike Barshak ever lived at the
Hotel Emerson \
Mr. Aaronson. I decline to answer that, sir.
Mr. Stathis. On what grounds?
Mr. Aaronson. Samegrounds.
Mi-. Stathis. Thai it would incriminate you of a Federal offense?
Mr. Aar.nson. Tend to incriminate me. sir.
Mr. Statins. Have you ever seen Mr. Barshak in or around the
Lobby of the Hotel Emerson?
Mr. Aaronson. I decline to answer the question, sir.
Mr. Stathis. On whal grounds?
Mr. Aaronson. Same grounds.
Mi'. Stathis. Have vou ever roomed with Mr. Barshak?
Senutor Kefauver. Mr. Stathis. what are yon trying to get at by
these questions? Maybe we can judge better. 01! the record.
i I discussion off the record. )
Senator Ki.im \ er. Ask him another question.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 277
Mr. Statu is. Have you ever operated any cigarette-vending
machines ?
Mr. Aaronson. Phrase the question again.
Mr. Stathis. Have you ever operated any cigarette-vending
machines?
Mr. Aaronson. Yes, I have.
Mr. Statu is. How many?
Mr. Aaronson. I don't remember at this time. It has been a long
time ago.
Mr. Statins. How long ago?
Mr. Aaronson. About early 1946, 1 think it was.
Mr. Stathis. That was after you were discharged from the Army '.
Mr. Aaronson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Well, was it 1 machine or 100 machines?
Mr. Aaroxsox. It was more than a hundred.
Mr. Stathis. It was more than a hundred?
Mr. Aaroxson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Was it more than 200?
Mr. Aaroxsox. I think around that, I am not sure. I wouldn't say
positively because we were always putting them out and taking them
back in again. A lot of them are always broken on the floor. It
would be hard to say.
Mr. Stathis. You operated approximately 200 cigarette-vending
machines?
Mr. Aaroxsox. I don't remember the exact amount, sir.
Mr. Stathis. I am not asking for the exact amount. I want an
approximate amount.
Senator Kefauver. He said approximately 200.
Mr. Aaroxsox. Around there, to the best of my knowledge. I
told you, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Did you operate those machines alone or in association
with someone else ?
Mr. Aaroxsox. I decline to answer that question, sir.
Mr. Stathis. On what grounds '?
Mr. Aaroxsox. On the grounds that it might tend to- incriminate
me?
Mr. Stathis. Of a Federal or State offense?
Mr. Aaroxsox. On the same grounds I mentioned before.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Aaronson, let me ask a question. What
was the name of the company that you had the machines in?
Mr. Aaroxsox. Uneeda Cigarette Service.
Senator Kefauver. Uneeda Cigarette Service. Were you em-
ployed by the company?
Mr. Aaroxsox. Pardon me ?
Senator Kefauver. Were you a partner or stockholder in the com-
pany ?
Mr. Aaroxsox. I was a stockholder in the company.
Senator Kefauver. What position did you hold in the company?
Mr. Aaroxsox. I was president of it.
Senator Kefauver. It is legal to operate cigarette-vending ma-
chines, isn't it, in the State of Maryland ?
Mr. Aaroxsox. Yes.
Senator Kefauver. Then Mr. Stathis' question was : Who was asso-
ciated in the company with you ? Can yon answer that question ?
278 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Aaronson. I decline to answer that.
Senator Kefauver. I will order yon to answer the question.
Mr. AARONSON. I decline, sir. on the same grounds.
Senator Kefauver. All right.
Mr. Statins. Have you ever operated any slot machines in the
State of Maryland?
Mr. Aaronson. I decline to answer that, sir.
Mr. Statu is. On what grounds ?
Mr. Aaronson. On the same grounds, sir.
Mr. Stathis. I would like to ask the Chair to direct him to answer
that question.
Senator Kefauver. I direct him to answer that.
Mr. Aaronson. I respectfully decline.
.Mr. Stathis. On what grounds?
Mr. Aaronson. On the same grounds, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Do you know an individual named Harry Rose?
Mr. Aaronson. What name?
Mr. Stathis. Harry Rose.
Mr. Aaronson. Not offhand, sir, I don't.
Mr. Stathis. Sir?
Mr. Aaronson. Not offhand, I don't.
Mr. Stathis. Is the phone number Plaza 2653 familiar to you in
any way ?
Mr. Aaronson. I can't remember right now. sir.
Mr. Stathis. Sir?
Mr. Aaronson. I don't remember right now.
Mr. Stathis. You don't recall the number?
Mr. Aaronson. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. Rick. It is a telephone listed to Harry Rose, who has a place
on the third lloor at 929 North Charles. That is where the Blue
Mirror is, isn't it?
Mr. Aaronson. 929 is the Blue Mirror: yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. You don't know him ?
Mr. Aaronson. The name doesn't strike me.
Mr. Rice. Do you know who has the third-floor apartment there?
Mr. Aaronson. No, sir. I have never been upstairs.
Mr. Rice. Just let me see if I am correct. 1 wasn't paying too
close attention when you were talking about the telephone set-up.
Did you say that the Blue Minor had a telephone in the office that
was Mulberry 7347 ?
Mr. Aaronson. I will say it is two lines, sir, on one instrument.
In other words, if anybody wants to make a call downstairs, they
still could have made the call and I could still talk on the other if
I have a call.
Mr. Rick. One of them is Mulberry and another number is
Mr. Aaronson. Both Mulberry.
Mr. Rick. One is Mulberry 7 " i 1 7 ^
Mr. A uronson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. When the bill comes at the end of the month, you pay
the bill for thai i
Mr. Aaronson. Pay the bill for all phones.
Mr. Kick. And you do most of the talking?
Mr. Aaronson. Not all the time.
Mr. Rice. You do most of it, don't you?
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 279
Mr. Aaronson. A good bit of it.
Mr. Rice. But the charges that are made for long-distance calls,
you are pretty well familiar with those, aren't you (
Mr. Aaronson. I pay for it. I wouldn't say I am too familiar with
them. As I mentioned earlier, employees use a lot of them, and I
-don't deny them making calls, or some outsider wants to make a call,
I don't bother too much.
Mr. Rice. On the number that is in the office there, here are some
calls coming in collect from Miami. On April 24 a party by the
name of Wendell called from Miami 86922 collect, 1:46 a. m. The
next day Wendell called again from another Miami number collect
at 12 : 12 a. m. Two days later he called again at 11 : 49 p. m. Wen-
dell called again 2 days later collect. Then he called May first twice
collect from Miami and again on May 6 and May 9. All of these
are 1951.
Who was this Wendell calling up collect?
Mr. Aaroxsox. That is in the record, sir.
Mr. Rice. I didn't hear it.
Mr. Aaronson. I think that is in the record.
Mr. Rice. What record?
Mr. Aaronson. The testimony.
Mr. Rice. Who is Wendell that is calling up collect? Who is he?
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Aaronson, if you know who Wendell is,
tell us.
Mr. Aaroxsox. I don't recall it, sir.
Mr. Rice. Here are about eight calls inside of a week period, all col-
lect from Miami, you paying the bill.
Mr. Aaroxsox. As I said before, I pay all the telephone bills. They
don't ever run that high, and with me it is a courtesy same as buying a
man a drink of whisky.
Mr. Rice. You pay collect telephone calls from Miami the same as
you would buy a drink of whisky ?
Mr. Aaroxsox. I think I have paid collect calls at various places in
my time since I have been there.
Mr. Rice. These are right substantial calls, running up to a con-
siderable amount of money.
Mr. Aaroxsox. Well
Mr. Rice. Do you want us to believe you don't know who Wendell is
that called up ?
Mr. Aaroxsox. What is that, sir ?
Mi'. Rice. Do you want this committee to believe you don't know who
this Wendell is who is calling up from Miami ?
Mr. Aaroxsox. Well, those particular calls I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Do you know who Wendell is ?
Mr. Aaronsox. Will you phrase that again ?
Mr. Rice. WTio is Wendell ?
Mr. Aaronson. Sir. you mentioned Miami calls there collect.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Aaronson. I received some calls from Mr. Sapperstein. 1 don't
know if I got them as Mr. WTendell or not. A man would have to give
me his name if I accept the call.
Mr. Rice. Mr. Sapperstein was down there about that time.
Mr. Aaronson. Yes, sir.
280 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Kick. And he was calling up from Florida and telling the opera-
tor, "This is Wendell calling," which is the name he used to fight under.
Mr. Aaronson. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. You don't give the name to the operator.
Mr. Aaronson. When I say. "Who is calling," I say sometimes the
party isn'1 here, because it could be some crank on the phone trying to
get somebody else.
Mr. Kick. Sometimes the operator says. "It is Wendell calling,"
and you say, "1 will accept the charges."
Mr. Aaronson. 1 don't remember. If it is Mr. Sapperstein, I
would probably accept it.
Mr. Rick. You would accept it '.
Mr. AARONSON. Being close to him, I certainly would.
Mr. Rice. Let's see. The operator would say, kTs this Mulberry
7347?" And you will say, "Yes." "I have a collect call fromMiami.
Mr. Wendell is calling. Will you accept the charges?" What would
you say \
Mr. Aaronson. Mr. Wendell — I might make myself clear if I say,
"Mr. Wendell, who is it?" That is his name. I don't know. I know
Mr. Sapperstein. If he was in Miami, I would say. "Put him on."
Find out it was Sapperstein calling from Miami. But, as I said
before, I don't remember the name Wendell. I don't remember it.
Mr. Rice. You want to say you never accepted any calls from
Wendell? Do you connect the name Wendell with Sapperstein \
Mr. Aaronson. I accepted calls from Mr. Sapperstein.
Mr. Rice. Do you connect the name with Sapperstein \
Mr. Aaronson. What is that?
Mr. Rice. Is that Wendell someone different from Sapperstein or
do you think these are Sapperstein's calls?
Mr. Aaronson. I have accepted them from Mr. Sapperstein.
Mr. Rice. From Miami ?
Mr. Aaronson. From Miami ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. I think that is simple enough.
Mr. Aaronson. That is what I said; Mr. Sapperstein.
Mr. Rice. But the ticket shows he called under the name of
Wendell.
Mr. Aaronson. Wendell?
Mr. Rice. Wendell— W-e-n-d-e-1-1.
Mr. Aaronson. I don't know. He might have said Wendell —
Wendell Sapperstein. Sometimes operators do funny things.
Mr. Rice. When he was calling up from Miami late at night, what
were those conversations about?
Mr. Aaronson. Well, I will tell you. As I said before, I am
very, very close to Mr. Sapperestein — the family also.
Mr. Rice. If you are that close, you would know he used to fight
under the name Kid Wendell.
Mr. Aaronson. I wouldn't say that.
Mr. Rice. Not that close?
Mr. Aaiioxsox. It happens I am very, very fond of Mr. Sapper-
stein's mother and dad — been around them for a longtime. They are
two very, very ill people. I think at that particular time his mother
or dad — they have both been sick- so much the past year or so, and any-
thing that I could do for him or run up there, I did, and any little
spare time 1 had and tried to take care of them the best that I could,
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 281
because I knew one of them was in the hospital about that time, I
think. They are in and out all the time. That is about all I
remember.
Mr. Rice. You were paying those telephone calls then, charging
those as business expense; weren't you '.
Mr. Aaronson. Pardon me?
Mr. Rice. You were paying for those telephone calls and charging
them as business expense on your books; weren't you?
Mr. Aakonson. Well, yes, I did.
Mr. Rice. I think it is very commendable.
Senator Kefauver. Let's get on.
Mr. Stathis. Have you ever been in the numbers business, Mr.
Aaronson ?
Mr. Aaronson. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds,
sir.
Mr. Stathis. What grounds ?
Mr. Aaronson. It may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stathis. Of a State or Federal offense '.
Mr. Aaronson. Same grounds as before.
Mr. Stathis. Do you know Willie Adams ?
Mr. Aaronson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
Senator Kefauver. I order you to answer that question.
Mr. Aaronson. I decline, sir. on the same grounds.
Mr. Stathis. What grounds ?
Mr. Aaronson. Same grounds as before, sir.
Mr. Stathis. That it will incriminate you of a State or Federal
offense ?
Mr. Aaronson. I decline to answer on the same grounds as I stated
before, sir.
Mr. Stathis. I am asking you to specify your grounds.
Mr. Aaronson. Federal offense.
Mr. Stathis. Have you ever heard of Mr. Adams?
Mr. Aaronson. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the same
grounds.
Mr. Stathis. You decline to answer whether 3-011 have ever heard
of Mr. Adams ?
Mr. Aaronson. Pardon me?
Mr. Stathis. You have never heard of the name Willie Adams?
Mr. Aaronson. O11I3- what I read in the papers.
Mr. Stathis. You have heard of him ; is that it ?
Mr. Aaronson. Yes.
Mr. Stathis. Has he ever been around 3-our club ?
Mr. Aaronson. No, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Would you know him if 3-ou saw him?
Mr. Aaronson. I think so. I saw his picture in the paper.
Mr. Stathis. Have you ever done business with him?
Mr. Aaronson. I decline to answer the question, sir, on the grounds
it might tend to incriminate me.
Senator Kefauver. I will order 3-011 to answer that question. Mr.
Aaronson.
Mr. Aaronson. I respectfully decline, sir.
Senator Kefauver. I think we will get along better if 3'ou could
tell what business it is 3-011 are talking about. Counsel, what business
is it 3tou contend he did with Mr. Adams?
Oft" the record.
2X2 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
(There was discussion off the record.)
Senator Kefauver. You do know Mr. Adams, but you refuse to
say whether yon have been in business with him; is that the idea?
Mr. Aarhnson. 1 wasn't in any business with Mr. Adams.
Senator Kefai ver. Never in business with Mr. Adams? Why did
you refuse to say whether you were or not \
Mr. Aaronson. I must have misinterpreted the question; didn't
hear it.
Senator Kefauver. I am afraid you are not being very frank with
the committee.
Mr. Aaronson. I mean to be frank.
Senator Kefauver. You started off being frank, but you slowed
down considerably. What business are you in now besides the Blue
Mirror. Mr. Aaronson ?
I want to give you all the time you want for conference, but can
yon answer and tell what other business you are in?
Mr. Aaronson. Can you pass that question over for a moment, sir?
Senator Kefauver. What other businesses are you in besides the
Blue Mirror?
Mr. Aaronson. I asked you. would you do me a favor and pass
thai quesl ion aside for a few moments, please?
Senator Kefauver. All right. Do you have any other question.
Mr. Stathis?
Mr. Stathis. How often does Mr. Sapperstein come into the Blue
Mirror?
Mi-. Aaronson. Several times a week.
Mr. Stathis. Two, three or four?
Mr. Aaronson. Several times, I don't know about how many —
two or three.
Mr. Stathis. Well, have you ever seen Mr. Sapperstein conduct
business in the Blue Mirror?
Mr. Aaronson. No. sir.
Mr. Stathis. Isn't it true that he takes bets in the Blue Mirror?
Mr. Aaronson. No. sir.
Mi'. Stathis. You have never seen him take a bet in the Blue
Mirror?
Mr. Aaronson. No. sir.
Mi-. Stathis. Have you heard that he take- bets?
Mr. Aaronson. I decline to answer that, sir.
Mr. ()"Si llivan. May I interrupt, Mr. Chairman?
Senator Kefauver. 1 won't direct him to answer that. Anything
else?
Mr. Stathis. Do you know Big Boy Bennett '.
Mr. Aaronson. Who?
Mr. Stathis. Big Boy Bennett?
Mr. Aaronson. No, sir.
Mr. Stathis. Have you ever heard of Big Boy Bennett?
Mi. Aaronson. The name doesn't strike me, sir.
Mr. Stathis. You don't recall the name?
Mr. A \i;m\son. No; I don't.
Mr. Stathis. Do you know Robert "Fifi" London?
Mr. Aaronson. Know him if I see him.
Mr. Stathis. You would know him if you saw him?
Mr. Aaronson. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 283
Mr. Si a 1 1 1 is. Is he a friend of yours?
Mr. A.\i;n\sn\. Just know him casually.
Mr. Statins. Casually \
Mr. Aaronson. That is right.
Mr. Stathis. Have you ever done business with Robert "Fifi"
London \
Mr. Aaronson. I decline to answer that, sir.
Mr. Stathis. On what grounds?
Mr. Aaronson. It may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stathis. 1 would like to ask the Chair to direct him to answer
that question.
Senator Kefauvek. I direct you to answer the question whether you
have ever done business with him.
Mr. Aaronson. 1 respectfully decline.
Mr. Stathis. On what grounds?
Mr. Aaronson. Same grounds.
Mr. Stathis. Do you know whether or not Mr. Sapperstein lays off
bets with Robert "Fifi" London?
Mr. Aaronson. I don't know anything about that.
Senator Kei auver. Have you conferred with your counsel as to
whether you want to tell us what businesses you are in besides the Blue
Mirror at the present time?
Very well, the committee will have a 5-minute recess.
(There was a short recess.)
Senator Kefauver. The committee will come to order. The ques-
tion you have been conferring with your counsel about, Mr. Aaronson,
is as to what other businesses you have at the present time besides the
Blue Mirror, if any.
Mr. Aaronson. Senator Kefauver, I don't mean to be disrespectful,
but I will have to decline to answer that question on the same grounds,
sir.
Senator Kefauver. What legal businesses do you have besides the
Blue Mirror, if any? Legal businesses?
Mr. Aaronson. I decline to answer that, sir.
Senator Kefauver. The Chair orders you to answer that question.
Mr. Aaronson. I decline.
Senator Kefauver. Any other questions? That is all, Mr. Aaronson.
Next is Mr. A versa.
Mr. A versa, do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give the
committee will be the whole truth, so help you God?
Mr. A vers a. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS J. AVERSA, BALTIMORE, MD., ACCOMPA-
NIED BY BENNETT CRAIN, ATTORNEY, BALTIMORE, MD.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Aversa, you are accompanied by counsel?
Mr. Crain. Bennett Grain — C-r-a-i-n.
Senator Kefauver. Have a seat. We are glad to have you with us.
Mr. Crain.
Mr. Rice, will you ask Mr. Aversa some questions?
Mr. Rice. Mr. Aversa. you are here under subpena '.
Mr. Aversa. Xo. sir.
284 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
.Mr. Kick. You are not here under subpena?
Mr. Aversa. I received the telegram.
Mr. Rice. Yes. The subpena was served on you previously?
Mr. Aversa. Thai is right.
Mr. Rice. You appeared before the committee in executive session
previously?
Mr. Avers \. Thai is right.
Mr. Kick. For the record at tliis time, what is your address?
M i . A\ ERS \. Four hundred and three Marlow Road.
Mr. Kice. In
Mr. Aversa. Baltimore.
Mr. Rice. Whal business are you in?
Mr. Aversa. 1 am in the Chanticleer.
Mr. Rice. Chanticleer?
Mr. Aversa. That is right.
Mi-. Kick. What is that?
Mr. Aversa. A night club.
Mr. Kick. A night club?
Mr. Aversa. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Is that a corporation?
Mr. Aversa. That is a corporation.
Mr. Rice. What is the name of the corporation?
Mr. Aversa. The New Chanticleer, Inc.
Mr. Rick. Who are the officers of that?
Mr. Aversa. The officers are Harrv D. Miller.
Mr. Rick Miller?
Mr. Aversa. Goldstein and myself.
Mr. Rice. What is Goldstein's name?
Mr. Aversa. Michael Goldstein.
Mr. Kick. Michael Goldstein?
Mr. Aversa. That is right.
Mi'. Rick. And who are the stockholders?
Mr. Aversa. Miller and myself.
Mr. Rick. Michael Goldstein doesn't have any stock?
Mr. Aversa. That is right.
Mr. Rick. Where is the bank account for the — you are what officer?
Mr. Aversa. I am vice president.
Mr. Kick. You are vice president?
Mr. Aversa. That is rigid.
Mr. RlCE. Where is the bank' account maintained?
Mr. Aversa. I think it is Union Trust, if I am not mistaken.
Mr. Kick. In the Union Trust ?
Mr. Aversa. Union Trust or Western National.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever have an account in the Western National?
Mr. Aversa. That could be possible.
Mr. Kick. Possible ?
Mr. A\ ersa. Yes. sir.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever have an account in the Western National ?
Mr. A\ ersa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kick. Were you authorized to draw checks on that account?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Does the Chant icleer have a liquor license?
Mr. A\ ers \. Yes. sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 285
Mr. Rice. And who is the licensee?
Mr. Aversa. The three names I gave you.
Mr. Rice. The three names — licensed in the corporate names?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. In your bank account at the Western National Bank, is
that still an active account or is it closed ?
Mi-. Aversa. I think it is.
Mr. Rice. And you are authorized to draw checks on it?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Anyone else?
Mr. Aversa. Mr. Miller and myself.
Mr. Rice. Mr. Miller and yourself?
Mr. Aversa. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Who handles the transactions, the deposits and the with-
drawals from the account normally ?
Mi-. Aversa. The withdrawals we handle ourselves, but we drew by
ohpok
Mr. Rice. You and Mr. Miller?
Mr. Aversa. Either one of us signs.
Senator Kefauver. Are you and Mr. Miller joint owners of this
corporation? You own half of it?
Mr. Aversa. We own half of the stock ; yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. You are the manager. Is he a manager, too?
Mr. Aversa. The other boy is manager ; Mr. Goldstein is the man-
ager.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Goldstein is the manager?
Mr. Aversa. That is right.
Senator Kefauver. What do you and Mr. Miller do there?
Mr. Aversa. Mr. Miller is president and I am vice president.
Senator Kefauver. Do you actively participate in running the
club?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Both of you ?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. All right, sir.
Mr. Rice. When the day's receipts are made up, who handles the
banking transactions, the deposits?
Mr. Aversa. The office girl.
Mr. Rice. The office girl ?
Mr. Aversa. That is right.
Mr. Rice. She runs them down to the bank?
Mr. Aversa. The office girl or the manager.
Mr. Rice. Under whose supervision?
Mr. Aversa. Under I or Mr. Miller's supervision.
Mr. Rice. You find out how much comes in everyday ?
Mr. Aversa. Not every day. Might be away 2 or 3 or 4 weeks.
Mr. Rice. While you are there you find out how much comes in?
Mr. Aversa. Well, sometimes. I don't pay to much attention to it.
Mr. Rice. You can't care about it.
Mr. Aversa. I certainly care about it, but it is all right, I have very
trustworthy people working for me. At least I think so.
Mr. Rice. AYe have looked over your account down there at the
Western National Bank, Mr. Aversa. and there are several checks
85277—51 — pt. 17— — 19
286 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
drawn on it that we are interested in. For instance, a cashier's check
was drawn down there on November 21, 1949, drawn in favor of Jo-
seph Levy, L-e-v-y, in the amount of $4,500, endorsed on the back,
Joseph Levy, and it says pay to the First National Bank of Chicago
or order Edward M. Dobkin — D-o-b-k-i-n. What would that be?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the grounds
that it may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Kkfauver. I will have to direct you to answer that ques-
tion, if you know.
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question, sir, on the grounds
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Are you under indictment?
Mr. Aversa. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Are you under investigation?
Mr. Aversa. No, sir, only this one here, this one that you are investi-
gating me now for.
Mr. Rice. By this committee?
Mr. Aversa. And I am also under investigation on Internal Reve-
nue.
Mr. Rice. How do you know that?
Mr. Aversa. That was much previous to this investigation of this
committee.
Mr. Rice. That was much previous ?
Mr. Aversa. About 7 or 8 months ago.
Mr. Rice. Has that been concluded?
Mr. Aversa. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You haven't straightened that out yet ?
Mr. Aversa. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Now when you say you decline, is that for a transaction
which occurred recently, a transaction 3^011 have in mind that you
fear
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question on the grounds it
might incriminate me. I am still under investigation.
Mr. Rice. Now I take it that you decline on the grounds it might
incriminate you of a Federal offense.
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Rice. You won't say whether it is a Federal or State offense?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. You decline to say that?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you know whether the thing that you fear prosecution
from is a Federal or State offense ?
Mr. A\ 1 i:s\. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the grounds
it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. I will ask the ('hair to direct the witness to answer that
question, if he knows the tiling that he fears prosecution from,
whet her it is a Federal or State offense.
Senator Ku.u ver. I think you ought to answer that question.
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the grounds
it may incriminate me.
Senator Kkiai ver. You are directed to answer as to whether you
are fearing a Federal prosecution, prosecution under a Federal offense
in- under a State offense.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 287
Mr. Aversa. Sir, I actually don't know which one, but I better de-
cline to answer the question.
Senator Kefauver. Then you "and/or" I suppose, the way you
put it?
Mr. Aversa. Sir?
Senator Kefauver. You are afraid of prosecution of a Federal
and/or a State on" ense ?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kice. Both?
Senator Kefauver. Let's pursue the matter further with other ques-
tions.
Mr. Kice. Do you know a man by the name of Joseph Levy?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the grounds
that it may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Kefauver. I order you to answer it as to whether you
know the man.
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question, sir, on the grounds it
may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Do you know Edward Dobkin?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the grounds
it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. If I suggest to you the records of this committee show
that. Dobkin is a well-known bettors' or bookies' bookie or lay-off man
in Chicago, would that help you ? Do you know him ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question, sir, on the grounds
it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Here is a check on the same transaction drawn on the
Western National Bank on the Chanticleer account of February 25,
1949, drawn to the order of Joe Rosen, for $4,000. Do you know Joe
Rosen ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Rice. Do you know what this check is for ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question on the grounds it
may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Did you have anything to do with Joe Rosen ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question on the ground that
it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Did you have anything to do with this check (
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question on the grounds that
it may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Kefauver. You are directed to answer these questions, Mr.
Aversa.
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer them, sir, on the grounds it may
tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. At this point, Senator, I would like to clear up a previ-
ous possible misconception. I understand Joe Rosen is the owner of
Buzz Fuzz.
Senator Kefauver. I am glad to get the record straightened out on
Buzz Fuzz. Do you know anything about Buzz Fuzz? Seriously,
do you know anything about a horse named Buzz Fuzz?
Mr. Aversa. I have heard of him.
Senator Kefauver. You have heard of him. That is as close as
you have been to him ?
288 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. I have the series of checks, and I take it from the witness'
demeanor that he will refuse to answer on all of them. I will read
them through quickly, and if any of them von would like to say any-
thing about any different from the others, go ahead and say so.
One on January 21, 194<>. to Harry Gordon for $4,000.
Senator Kefauver. Do you want to tell us about that?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer, sir.
Mr. Rice. Down in Miami, Fla.
Mr. Chain. Senator, would it be possible if we could have a list of
the checks after he has gone through them?
Mr. Rice. We have a list. Maybe it would be better. Here is a
check dated January 21, 1949, to Harry Gordon.
Senator Kefauver. Suppose you take the checks down there, counsel,
and Mr. Rice, you read them off.
Mr. Rice. It is endorsed by Gordon, and the second endorser is
Sherry Frantum, deposited Miami, Fla., $4,000.
Senator Kefauver. Just a minute. Mr. Crain, have you caught up
with him there?
Mr. Grain. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Will somebody help him get started?
All right. Air. Rice. Read the checks off.
Mr. Rice. The next one is January 21, 1949, to Melvin Harris. Sec-
ond endorser is Peter Miller Hotel in Miami, $2,000.
The same day, January 21, 1949, H. L. Fulner, Peter Miller Hotel,
Miami, $.'3,000.
Ten days later on the 31st of January, Fred Brewer, deposited Sea-
board Citizens National Bank, Norfolk, Va., $1,282.
The next one is the Rosen check we mentioned just now for $4,000.
February 25, 1949, one to Bert Block, endorsed again by Harry
Sherman at the Cromwell Hotel, Miami. Fla., $:5.500.
April 18. 1949, to Ernest Good, endorsed Frank Small, $600.
April 20, li»49, to Sophie Tucker, $4,500. Do you know what that
is?
Mr. Aversa. That is probably from the club.
Mr. Rice. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Aversa. That is probably her own salary. She could have
went down there and got a cashier's check.
Senator Kefauver. Let the record show that would be for value
received.
Mr. Rice. Are you eating something*
Mi'. Aversa, Yes ; my throat is a little dry. Sorry, sir.
Mr. Rice. If any of these others are for entertainers or anything
like that, I would appreciate your saying so.
Senator Kefauver. I didn't mean to be facetious about Miss Tucker.
I know she earns her money. She is a very remarkable entertainer.
You did have her at the Chanticleer?
Mi\ Aversa. 'That is right.
Mr. Rice. August 22, L949, Joseph Grant, reendorsed Louis Rosen-
feld. deposited Baltimore, $4,000. Do you know anything about
that'
Mi1. Aversa. Read that question again. Mr. Rice.
Mi-. Rice. Joseph Grant, second endorser Louis Rosenfeld. deposited
in Baltimore, $4,000.
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 289
Mr. Rice. Don't know those people ?
Mr. Avkksa. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. Will you allow an interruption? I do understand,
following your reference to Miss Tucker, I am advised that of that
amount she gave a thousand dollars of it to charity, the Red Cross,
because of her charitable inclinations.
Mr. Aversa. A very charitable woman, yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. One on November 21, 1949, to Harry Singer, deposited
First National Bank, Chicago, to Dobkin's account. We talked about
him before. $4,000.
The same day, one to Joseph Levy, also deposited to Dobkin's ac-
count, First National Bank, $4,000, $8,500 went to Dobkins that day.
December 22, 1949, Harry Snyder, reendorsed Joseph Brown, and
deposited in Miami Beach, First National Bank, to the account of
Atwill & Co., $3,000. Do you know what that was?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer, sir, on the grounds it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. December 22, 1949, to Walter Henry, second endorser J.
Levy, deposited in New York, $3,000.
December 22, 1949, to Henry J. Levy.
Mr. Crain. To whom was it drawn?
Mr. Rice. Walter Henry. Here is the check. Is there any explana-
tion on that?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer the question.
Senator Kefauver. To save time, let all these checks be filed, and
you have explained what Miss Tucker's check was for. Do you want
to look through and tell us whether you will say anything about any
of the other checks?
Mr. Rice. January 9, 1950, to Henry Scherr, second endorser Arthur
Evans, cashed at Miami, Fla., $1,062.
February 21, 1950, to Joseph Grant, second endorser W. J. Gargis,
Raleigh, N. C, $540.
March 23, 1950, to Henry Stone, second endorser Joseph A. Leub-
bert, New York City, $2,000.
May 9, 1950, E. Goodman, second endorser David Zaelt, deposited
Phikdelphia, $615.
July 17, 1950, Joseph Gordon, second endorser Joseph Grodecki,
deposited New York, $500.
One of the Dobkin checks was also endorsed by Grodecki.
December 11, 1950, to Joe Gordon, second endorser W. J. Gargis
and Mrs. W. J. Gargis, deposited Raleigh, N. C, $900.
Here is one to Joseph Gerber, second endorser W. J. Gargis, Raleigh,
N. C, deposited $2,745.
Who is this Gargis in North Carolina?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer.
Mr. Rice. Do you know him ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer on the grounds that it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. On the same date a check to Leroy Wylie, second endorser
H. Brody, 4750 North Kedzie Avenue, $7,500.
Do you know either one of those ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer, sir.
Mr. Rice. The total of that group of checks is a little better than
$50,000. Outside of the Sophie Tucker check do you wish to offer
any explanation about any of them?
290 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Aversa. No, sir; I decline to answer on the grounds that it may-
tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any information on any of them?
Mr. Avkksa. I decline to answer on the grounds that it may tend to
incriminate me.
Senator Kefauver. I direct you to answer and tell us what you
know about these checks.
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer, sir, on the grounds it may tend
to incriminate me.
Senator Kefauver. Anything else?
Mr. Rice. One or two questions. Have you ever been connected with
the New York Novelty Co.?
Mr. Aversa. Beg your pardon?
Mr. Rice. Have you ever been connected with the New York Novelty
Co.?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. New York Novelty Co.?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What is your capacity with that company?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer on the grounds it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Rice. What is the New York Novelty Co.?
Mr. Aversa. I also decline to answer it on the grounds it may tend
to incriminate me.
Senator Kefauver. Is it a legal business or an illegal business? I
direct you to answer it.
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question on the grounds that
it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. I think he opened the door by saying he was connected
with the company. We ye entitled to know what the business of the
company is. What is the headquarters of the company?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer on the grounds that it may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. What do you mean by saying you are connected with it?
Mr. Aversa. I was connected with it in 1947. The thing don't exist
any more.
Mr. Rice. You are no longer connected with it?
Mr. Aversa. That is right.
Mr. Rice. When you were connected with it in 1947, what was your
connection ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that, sir, on the grounds it may
tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. What do you mean by that? Were you a principal in the
company or were you manager?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that also on the same grounds.
Mr. Rice. Was it a slot-machine business? Was it in a slot-machine
business?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that, sir, on the same grounds.
Mr. Rice. You can say "No," if it wasn't, you know.
Senator Kefauver. He declines to answer. I direct that he answer
that question.
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer, sir, on the grounds that it may tend
to incriminate me.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 291
Mr. Rice. Do you know where 20 East Cross Street is?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any business at 20 East Cross Street?
Mr. Aversa. Do I have any business?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. A vers a. I own a property there.
Mr. Rice. The Chanticleer?
Mr. Aversa. No.
Mr. Rice. You own property there ?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What property does it consist of?
Mr. Aversa. Tavern.
Mr. Rice. Who is your tenant ?
Mr. Aversa. Jenkins.
Mr. Rice. Has he ever been arrested, to your knowledge?
Mr. Aversa. I think he was arrested once and exonerated.
Mr. Rice. For horse booking?
Mr. Aversa. I think so.
Mr. Rice. I see a record here where you have something about specu-
lations on races. What does that mean?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that, sir, on the grounds it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. Do you speculate on the races ?
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that on the same grounds, that it
may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Kefauver. You are directed to answer that question, Mr.
Aversa.
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that, sir, on the same grounds, that
it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rice. I see no point in laboring this.
Senator Kefauver. Where did you come from ? Are you a native
of Baltimore ?
Mr. Aversa. No, sir. I came here as a little boy from Italy.
Senator Kefauver. From where ?
Mr. Aversa. Italy.
Senator Kefauver. Where?
Mr. Aversa. Italy.
Senator Kefauver. Where were you born?
Mr. Aversa. In Italy, sir. I came here when I was about 8 or 9
years old.
Senator Kefauver. Where did you come from in Italy? What
place ?
Mr. Aversa. I think it was called something like Katanya.
Senator Kefauver. Are you naturalized ?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. You came over with your family ?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Where all have you lived since you have been
in the United States.
Mr. Aversa. In Baltimore, sir .
Senator Kefauver. Lived all your life there?
Mr. Aversa. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. How old are you now?
Mr. Aversa. I am 47, sir.
292 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Kefauver. Any questions, Senator?
The Chairman. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Rice?
Mr. Rice. Have you ever been arrested.
Mr. Ayersa. Maybe some years back for disorderly conduct as a
youngster, fighting, something. Outside of that no other.
Mi. Rice. In recent years you haven't been arrested?
Mr. Avers a. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You have been operating right there in Baltimore in
recent years ?
Mr. Aversa. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Rice. You have been operating right there in Baltimore in
recent years ?
Mr. Aversa. I don't get the question.
Mr. Rice. You have been doing business there in Baltimore in
recent years ? Is that right ?
Mr. Aversa. Have I been in Baltimore?
Mr. Grain. Have you been working in Baltimore in recent years?
Mr. Rice. In the last 8 or 10 years?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Living there ?
Mr. Aversa. Yes.
Mr. Rice. You haven't been arrested ?
Mr. Aversa. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of the Mafia ?
Mr. Aversa. The Mafia?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Aversa. I have read about it.
Mr. Rice. What is it?
Mr. Aversa. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. What do you read about it?
Mr. Aversa. What I see in the paper, Mafia. That is what I mean,
the name itself, that is all.
Mr. Rice. What it it?
Mr. Aversa. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. What did you read about it?
Mr. Aversa. Nothing except the name.
Mr. Rice. What does it mean? Do you speak Italian ?
Mr. Aversa. Very little. I have no idea.
Mr. Rice. It doesn't mean anything to you ?
Mr. Aversa. Doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. Rice. What impression do yon have of it, reading about it?
Senator Kefauver. He says it doesn't mean anything to him.
Do you go down to Florida in the wintertime?
Mr. Aversa. Occasionally, sir ; yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Where do yon si ay in Florida ?
Mr. Aversa. Usually stay around the Cromwell Hotel.
Senator Kefauver. Where?
Mi. Aversa. Cromwell, no particular place, any spot at all.
Senator Kefauver. Were yon asked the question of whether you
know Dobkins out in Chicago?
Mr. Aversa. 1 beg your pardon?
Senator Kefauver. Do yon know this fellow Dobkins in Chicago?
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 293
Mr. Aversa. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the same
grounds.
Senator Kefauver. Do you know Levy at Cincinnati?
Mr. Aversa. I also decline to answer that question on the same
grounds, sir, that it might tend to incriminate me.
Senator Kefauver. Do you know Erickson in Xew York, Frank
Erickson ?
Mr. Aversa. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. You don't know him?
Mr. Aversa. No, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Do you know Mr. Bilson, who was in here tell-
ing about the wire service ?
Mr. Aversa. Xo, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Have you ever had any connection with the
wire service?
Mr. Aversa. Xo, sir.
Senator Kefauver. How about Louis Levinson ?
Mr. Aversa. Is he on one of those checks ?
Senator Kefauver. I don't know. I don't believe he is.
Mr. Rice. ''Sleep Out'' Louis Levinson, Cincinnati.
Mr. Aversa. I don't think so.
Mr. Rice. You don't know him ?
Senator Kefauver. That is all. Do you have anything else you
want to say '.
Mr. Aversa. That is all.
Senator Kefauver. Do you want to ask him any questions, Mr.
Counsel ?
Mr. Crain. None, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Kefauver. That is all.
All right, Senator O'Conor.
The Chairman. Mr. Smith, please.
In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear that the testimony
you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth \
Mr. Smith. I do. sir.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS S. SMITH
The Chairman. Your full name is
Mr. Smith. Thomas S. Smith.
The Chairman. Thomas S. Smith. Mr. Smith, you are connected
with the Maryland State Police?
Mr. Smith. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. And for what period of time have you been con-
nected with them?
Mr. Smith. Since 1940.
The Chairman. Most recently where have you been stationed in-
sofar as your duties with the State police are concerned \
Mr. Smith. Division of investigation.
The Chairman. For what period of time have you been connected
with that subdivision of the Maryland State Police \
Mr. Smith. Since 1942.
The Chairman. Xow, Mr. Smith, you have been in recent weeks
working in conjunction with the Senate Crime Investigating Com-
mittee, have you not?
294 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. 1 think your particular investigations included
some of the matters in Florida as well as elsewhere?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And most recently have you been concerned with
matters in the State of Maryland?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now particularly I invite your attention to any
investigation that you might have made concerning the existence
of any narcotics or dope of any kind in the State. Will you tell the
committee just what you have done in that regard, please?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. From a confidential source we had heard
that a source of marijuana existed in western Maryland somewhere
around Kitzmiller.
On July 3 we made an investigation of that tip. We were able
to locate a source of marijuana growing wild in the vicinity of
Romney, W. Va., on down the south bank, they call it, of the Potomac
River, on down into western Maryland.
The Chairman. First of all, how far was the place from the Mary-
land line that you first discovered it?
Mr. Smith. 1 would say 25 or 30 miles from the Maryland line
is where this source of marijuana that I have with me here, the speci-
mens came from. It came from the vicinity of Romney, W. Va., on
property owned by a James and George Stump and also on another
property owned by Williams brothers, but it is our information that
this plant is growing wild, unrecognized by the local citizens, and it
is growing all along the river bank in that vicinity.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Smith, are we to understand that start-
ing from the point near Romney that it was traced near to the State
line of Maryland ?
Mr. Smith. We have no samples from Maryland, but we under-
stand that it goes into Maryland and is growing there.
The Chairman. Now did you take photographs of the particular
area?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Will you produce those, please.
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir; here they are right here, sir. It shows mari-
juana growing wild in its natural state, and it does give an indication
of the size of the plant. It grows to probably 6 or 7 feet tall in some
instances.
The Chairman. I would like to have those introduced in evidence
and marked by the reporter.
(The photographs referred to above were marked for identification
as exhibits A, B, C, and D, and may be found in the files of the
committee.)
The Chairman. Now, Officer Smith, you had mentioned previously
that the tip that you received led you, of course, to this particular loca-
tion where you verified the fact that there was quite a supply of it
growing wild.
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did the source of the information also reveal as
to what if any use had been made of it in the past ?
Mr. Smith. The reason for the investigation, sir, was the tip that
it was a possible source or was a source for Baltimore and Washing-
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 295
ton, that some person up there, who we were unable to determine, was
bringing it into the two cities and selling it after first trying it out.
We brought a small sample here for evidence. We have had it
analyzed and it is found to be
The Chairman. That was to be my next question. Will you state
what you did with it by way of analysis.
Mr. Smith. This was analyzed by a chemist and was found to be
the marijuana plant.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Smith, who analyzed it ?
Mr. Smith. I do not have that information, sir, as to the name. I
can determine it for the record.
The Chairman. It was a competent person?
Mr. Smith. Yes, a competent person.
The Chairman. In fairness to the owners of the property, lest there
be any inference from what you have said — and you have given the
names of the owners — there is nothing to indicate that they them-
selves, no proof as to their use of it or their distribution of it?
Mr. Smith. Nothing whatsoever, no, sir. This is just a weed to
them.
The Chairman. I didn't want the record to indicate that there was
any indication that they, the owners of the property, were aware of
the nature of the drug and were using it or causing its distribution.
Mr. Smith. No, sir ; no indication of that whatsoever.
Senator Kefatjver. Mr. Smith, the obligation to destroy this weed,
is that an obligation of the State police ?
Mr. Smith. We understand it is a Federal narcotic obligation to
take care of that.
Senator Kefauver. I am sure they will take care of that.
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Is this in West Virginia mostly ?
Mr. Smith. The source that we found is in West Virginia ; yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Apparently there is some, you think, in Mary-
land ; is that right ?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. All right.
The Chairman. I think that is all. Mr. Smith, we will keep these
photographs as a part of the record.
Senator Kefauver. The hearing tomorrow beginning at 10 o'clock
will start here and continue on in the afternoon and probably be held
in the District of Columbia committee room in the Capitol.
The committee will stand in recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow.
(Whereupon, the committee adjourned at 5 p. m.)
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
THURSDAY, AUGUST 9, 1951
United States Senate,
Subcommittee of the Special Committee To Investigate
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce,
Washington, D. C.
The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 : 30 a. m., in room
457, Senate Office Building, Senator Estes Kefauver presiding.
Present: Senators O'Conor (chairman) and Kefauver.
Also present : Downey Rice, associate counsel ; Wallace Reidt, Nicho-
las Statins, and Norman Polski, assistant counsel; and James M.
Hepbron, administrative assistant.
The Chairman. The hearing will please come to order.
At the outset, I might announce that, as was done yesterday, I shall
request the able Senator from Tennessee, Senator Kefauver, to pre-
side at the hearing today, and we will continue the hearing in this room
throughout the morning session if possible. Then, upon the resump-
tion of the hearing after the luncheon recess, we will have the hearing
in the District of Columbia room, just off the Senate floor, because of
the fact that it is expected that the arguments on certain contempt
citations will be heard his afternoon, in which several of the Senators
are required to participate and also because of the call of the Calendar
which is scheduled for today.
I should like also to announce for the information of the press that
we have received certain inquiries about the hearings in connection
with conditions in New York, and they have been scheduled to begin
on next Wednesday, August 15. The hearings will be held here in
Washington for some of the reasons that prompted us to hold these
hearings in Washington, in order that Senators could be in close touch
with legislative proceedings.
We have the pleasure today of having the distinguished judge of
the supreme bench of Baltimore City, Judge Joseph Sherbow, with
us, who has come at our special invitation, and we would like to ask,
at this time, Judge Sherbow, if you will kindly take the stand.
Senator Kefauver. Judge, according to the rules of the committee,
all our witnesses have to be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give the committee will
be the whole truth, so help you God \
Judge Sherbow. I do.
Senator Kefauver. Before we start with Judge Sherbow, I think
we should see if Mr. Sapperstein, Ike Sapperstein, is here. Is he here
tins morning? We had a physical examinal ion made of Mr. Sapper-
stein. His certificate was not satisfactory.
What is the situation with regard to that?
297
298 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. We have communicated with Mr. Sapperstein by tele-
gram last night and indicated the committee's desire to have him here
this morning despite the letter we received yesterday. I have heard
nothing further from him.
Senator Kefauver. I will ask the staff to please notify his lawyer
that we expect him to be here this afternoon.
If anyone's name was mentioned in the hearings yesterday who
wants to make any explanation or have anything to say about the
testimony that was given, I wish he would let the staff or the committee
know, so we can give him an opportunity to be heard at the earliest
possible moment.
Judge Sherbow, the committee is delighted to have you with us this
morning. We appreciate the cooperation and assistance you have
given the committee. We recognize your very high standing as a
member of the judiciary in Maryland and in the city of Baltimore.
We know that you have a great deal of familiarity with conditions in
Baltimore Cit}T.
Do you have any preliminary statement that you wish to make in
the beginning, Judge?
The Chairman. Just as a matter of evaluation of the testimony of
the judge, if you will permit me, Mr. Chairman, I do think, for the
record, that it ought to be stated, as you have so ably stated, that in the
judge we have a very important witness who is conversant with con-
ditions not only in Baltimore, but elsewhere, as a result of the studies
he has made and of the very splendid judgment and experience that
he has had. So I think we are fortunate in having him.
As you have indicated, he has been most cooperative and has been
of tremendous help to our committee in its work.
I thought we could better evaluate his testimony by having that
made a matter of record.
TESTIMONY OF HON. JOSEPH SHERBOW, ASSOCIATE JUDGE OF
SUPREME BENCH OF BALTIMORE CITY, MD.
Judge Siiekbow. You are both very kind.
At the outset, I wanted to address myself particularly to the nar-
cotics situation.
When I came into the criminal court, part I, in Baltimore City,
the first week in January of this year, I already had had some famil-
iarity with the narcotics picture because I had helped organize what
we call the Youth Court in Baltimore, dealing with offenders from
16 through 20, all of whose cases are heard in one part. We got that
started last October. That was when I began to see these narcotics
cases floating through the courts.
By sometime in January, I was appalled with the situation as it
began to develop in Baltimore City, insofar as the courts were con-
cerned. I had some consultations with Mr. Hepbron of the Criminal
Justice Commission, Mr. Reidt, Mr. Boyd Martin of the Federal Nar-
cotics Bureau, our own police department, the State's attorney's office,
and I think the rest of the picture is pretty well history because in
Baltimore City, insofar as narcotics are concerned, you have what, I
would say, comes closest to being the perfect picture of cooperation
between the Federal and State and city police authorities and the
municipal government as such.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 299
The municipal government through the mayor and city council,
board of estimates, allocated $10,000 to the State's attorney's office for
use in connection with the narcotics picture.
We had the sad experience of seeing a Federal Bureau in a city of
nearly a million population with only three Federal agents. They
did a splendid job under those handicaps. When I communicated
with them further, I found they had a total of 11 agents for 11
million population in the various States under that same area of
jurisdiction.
So they could not do the job without the local authorities. The police
formed a narcotics squad. There are two of them functioning now.
We have had a parade of offenders who have been apprehended, many
of whom have been convicted and are now serving their sentences.
The experience that stands out in my mind is not the fact that you
have this pathetic parade of people, but that the major source of sup-
ply of heroin for Baltimore City should be Washington, the District of
Columbia, the Nation's Capital.
Senator Kefauver. How do you know that?
Judge Sherbow. I have had, Senator, case after case where in ques-
tioning the people we have found that the source of supply has been an
area in the District of Columbia where they come over and purchase
their heroin at a dollar to a dollar and a quarter to a dollar and a half
per capsule and bring them to Baltimore where the price is $3. I
know — and, Senators, of course, you know — that addicts are garrulous.
You cannot rely on what they say. They are almost psychopathic
liars. But the picture, including the locations, has run through so
many of the cases that is is clear that it is so, and I believe it.
I have taken it up with Mr. Boyd Martin and I believe they are
familiar with it. They know the situation and they are doing what
they can to curb it with inadequate facilities and a woeful lack of
manpower.
Senator Kefauver. If you will excuse me, at this time, the condi-
tion you are talking about of Washington, in your opinion being a
chief source of supply for heroin, is that as of now or is that as ot
sometimes in the past?
Judge Sherbow. I have to phrase it this way: From the time I
started trying these cases up until we recessed, which was in the first
week in July, so I cannot speak for July and I cannot speak for1
August, although I have been willing to hold cases during that pe-
riod of time, but we just cannot try them for technical reasons
Senator Kefauver. What was the time you started to try cases?
Judge Sherbow. Beginning the first week in January of 1951.
Senator Kefauver. Can you tell us approximately how many cases
that you tried there was evidence secured about Washington being the
source of supply ?
Judge Sherbow. I cannot. But I can tell you that it wasn't 1, it
wasn't 5, it wasn't 10, it was more. So much so, Senator, that the
pattern began to run through it. They would name the streets. If
you ask me to give you the name of the streets, I am afraid I would
name the wrong streets. Mr. Wallace Reidt could pick it up without
difficulty through the testimony and through Sergeant Carroll and
perhaps even could interview those who are involved in that phase
of the picture.
300 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. Would you permit me to ask a question right there?
Bearing out your statement — and I stale this as information coming
to us which is confirmatory of exactly what you have stated — and
ask you whether your experience has beeii along similar lines. We
have found that the price of the dose, just as you have described, was
$1 in Washington and $3 in Baltimore, which indicated — and which
the addicts told us indicated — the more plentiful supply here in
Washington, the District of Columbia. Did you not find that that
lasted over the Avhole period or over an extended period, that same
price differential which the addicts, of course, indicated meant a more
plentiful supply and brought them here to Washington to get it?
Judge Sherbow. It lasted up until the last case I tried. The only
reason I hesitate to say what the picture is today is because for July
and August I do not want to talk about t hings I do not know anything
about. You are absolutely right. They come to Washington and buy
30 or 40 or f>(> caps at SI or $1.'2.~> and' come to Baltimore and retail
them for S3 apiece.
The Chairman. Did you hear of any cases, such as we heard — that
is why I ask the question — of several coining up together from Balti-
more to get to Washington ?
Judge Sherbow. The largest, I think, I had, was three or four in
a group coming over to get it and they named the streets. They named
the corners where they could get it and I questioned them very care-
fully and made full allowances for the fact that they were willing
to lie. They were very frank in telling where the streets were and
what the corners were and I have confirmed that with the officials of
the Federal Bureau, but there is a limit to what manpower can do if
you do not have enough manpower.
Senator Kkfatjver. Judge, whom did you notify in the District of
Columbia or in the police department here or the Bureau of Narcotics
about this condition ?
Judge Sherbow. Immediately, as it came to light — the Bureau in
Baltimore includes the District of Columbia, Virginia, West Virginia,
and I think one other State, so the headquarters are in Baltimore,
and as the cases were being tried, the Director, Mr. Martin, was there.
I want to say this: I couldn't pay high enough tribute to Mr. Martin
and to the members of the police department in Baltimore for the job
they are doing in the narcotics field. I say it is a swell job and the
cooperation between the Federal and the local police department is
absolutely perfect. There is no friction. Nobody is trying to make
cases for his side or the other side, but it is pretty sad when you find
only three Federal operators in Baltimore, and there happen to be
incidentally some rather outstanding, well-educated men there.
Senator Kf.f.w \ 1:1:. I think we can join you in general for the very
high praise for the Bureau of Narcotics and Mi-. Anslinger. All the
agents we have seen are devoted men who work overtime and are com-
petenl and thorough in their work. They have only 188 to cover all
of the United States and their Territories. That is the difficult}^.
Were the Baltimore police in touch with any members of the police
lone «>f t he District of Columbia I
Judge Sherbow. I cannot answer that. 1 can say this: That the
Narcotics Bureau knows it — 1 do not like to quote other peoph — but
1 can say. in discussing it with Mr. Martin. I have gotten a (dear
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 301
indication that Mr. Martin lias recognized that situation and is doing
whatever he can to clear it up and clean it up to what extent possible.
As to what extent it has been communicated by him to the local
police department, I prefer to have him answer for himself.
Senator Kefatjver. It would be interesting to know that.
Senator O'Conor and I were both advised that Major Barrett has
started, or rather will start the latter part of this month or early in
September, schools in which most of the Metropolitan Police force
will be given courses in apprehending narcotic peddler- and dealing
with narcotic problems generally. So the District of Columbia police
force will be better equipped to cope with the problem. 1 think that
is a commendable thing which Major Barrett is doing.
Senator O'Conor, I think, is going to address them.
The Chairman. I understand the plans have been completed. We
are just waiting for the opening in the very near fut are.
Senator Kefatjver. How do you account for this condition that
heroin is cheaper in the District of Columbia than in Baltimore city?
Judge Sherbow. For one reason, if you get caught with it in Bal-
timore, you get locked up and you get a long sentence. I cannot
answer for Washington.
Mr. Kick. Along that line. Judge Sherbow, have you been sensitive
to any upswing of the use of the drug by teen-ager- \
Judge Sherbow. Yes, Mr. Rice, and I would say that :$(> years'
experience at the bar, part of it on the bench, has disclosed to me
nothing as sad and sickening as that. We have had some demonstra-
tions even in the courtroom that would turn your stomach.
There was one case involving marijuana where a group of teen-
agers, some in their early 2U's — and over 50 of their friends — were
present in the courtroom to see what would happen. They thought
it was a theatrical performance, at least during the recess period that
was the impression I got from those who were out in the hall. They
had no idea of the seriousness of the situation.
Then a 15-year-old boy took the stand and testified that on a Friday
night, he had sold 90 marijuana cigarettes at a public dance hall in
one of the sections of Baltimore city and he was only one of the
peddlers.
That was back in January or February, but it is definitely so preva-
lent among the younger people that it is the problem that 1 think has
to be viewed now from the constructive angle of what you are to do
when the heat is off, when this committee ceases to function, when the
lethargy that usually sets in and the apathy and apathetic attitudes
of the communities begin to take over, what are you going to do
about it '.
Mr. Rice. Have yon been able to ascribe any reason for this up-
swing or upsurge in the use of narcotics by teen-agers?
Have you been able to figure that out. Judge Sherbow?
Judge Sherbow. No: I haven't been aide to figure that out. except
along these lines. Those who are using it frequently have a problem
or a difficulty and. if drugs were not so plentiful and so easily obtain-
able, the worst that would have happened to them would have been
that they might have gotten involved in some minor difficulty, but,
because the drug- were available and are still available, they get in-
volved in this kind of an episode and then, when they get out, un-
sr,i-77— 51 — pt. 17 20
302 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
fortunately, not too many can be helped, not too much can be done,
ur is being done for them.
Mr. Kick. Obviously, Judge Sherbow, you have given considerable
thought to this problem. Do you have any suggestions you might
offer along remedial lines that would be helpful ?
Judge Sherbow. Yes; I do. I have what I call the nine points
that are on the constructive side, and I have divided them into the
international and State and city levels. If I may, I would like to tell
you what those nine points are and say something about each of them.
The Chairman. I think that would be a very proper procedure. We
will just consider the entire program as introduced, if you would, and
then, if you would make any statements you wish concerning the
di He rent subdivisions of it or just consider the entire suggestions as
embodied at this point in your remarks.
Judge Sherbow. Item 1 is the restriction of the growing of opium
plants in Asiatic and middle-eastern countries through the United
Nations action. Of course, Senator, that is where you and others can
have our representatives at the United Nations deal with the problem
at that level and it can be done. I believe some steps have been taken
toward that.
On the national level, I think the greatest effort ought to be made
by the agencies of the United States Government to prevent smug-
gling of narcotics into this country.
This happened before me a few weeks ago. A young man in his
early twenties kept his marijuana in an automobile in the baby's diaper
bag. There were two babies, one of 3 and one of 18 months, and his
wife was about to have a third child 2 weeks off when the case was
being tried. He kept the marijuana right in the diaper bag. As it
developed in that case, that marijuana came over in an oil tanker
which had come from the Gulf of Mexico. The engineer had brought
it into Baltimore. He had gotten it from the engineer. There was
the perfect tie-up. It showed that it was so easy, so simple, to get off
these ships, that something can be done.
This country stopped smuggling of gems and other items. It is an
expensive process, but it is certainly worth doing. If an intensive
effort were made to block that source, you would accomplish a great
deal. You cannot do it all with one fell swoop, but that is a part of it.
Adequate increase in the number of Federal narcotic agents. I
think that speaks for itself. When you have three in a city of a
million, you do not scratch the surface, you do not even tickle the
surface, with just three. The local police are doing their job, but they
had to he awakened to it. The Federal narcotics people are on the job
all the time. If you get that increase, you will get something done.
There ought to be additional medical facilities at Lexington, Kw,
and elsewhere. Here T want to say this about it: Taking people to
Lexington or to any other institution, keeping them there long enough
to take them oil' the ding. 3 or 4 months longer accomplishes very
little, because as soon as they get out, whatever problem they orig-
inally had that helped them to get into the habit, or whatever may be
the reason for it or whatever kind of weakness they may be subject
to, they go right back to it. What they need — they have it at Lexing-
ton on some scale, but they do not have it elsewhere — is the kind of
psychiatric training, the kind of rehabilitation, that is needed to re-
More people back to normal, natural society.
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 303
If they do not have that kind of training, then a great deal of what
is being done is lost.
I say "and elsewhere." There ought not to be just the places at
Lexington and, I think, one other. There ought to be other institu-
tions for the addicts.
How does that come about \ That is my next point. There ought
to be assistance by the Federal Government to State and local govern-
ments for additional hospital facilities for drug addicts. What you
have there is this picture : The Federal Government will help under
the Hill-Burton Act for the construction of certain hospital facilities.
The Federal Government will help through the Public Health Service
for a large distribution of funds for research. The Federal Govern-
ment is doing, on its top level, a great number of things in the way
of grants in aid to the local governments on any variety of levels
dealing with other problems. If the Federal Government could grant
to an area, because a city may not be able to maintain it, some help,
so that a hospital or a facility can be established that will begin to
provide beds — and beds are only a beginning, because it takes a short
while to take them off the drug in spite of what they go through, and
it is horrors — but after that you have the rehabilitative process.
Meanwhile, they must be kept under custodial care. That takes time
and that takes money.
The next point is : Federal funds and private funds for medical
research. I happen to be quite interested in the general field of medi-
cal research. I do not know whether this committtee has received
much information about this, but my informaiton is that very little
is being done anywhere except at Lexington in the field of medical
research into some cure or possible agency or agent that might pre-
vent the addicts from going back or remaining on the drug, or doing
something about it. Here we have a large number of foundations in
this country that are making grants. The Federal Government is
making tremendous grants, all to agents for research. Something
could be done, something should be done, to funnel some of these funds
into this field.
You cannot have research by turning on a spigot and turning it off.
Research doesn't work that way. If, in some way, attention is di-
rected to it, I know it can be done.
It so happens, right in Baltimore, I know of some research that is
being done, but it happens to be in a field which, while directly con-
nected with dope addiction, is on such a small scale that it needs help.
On the State and city level, we ought to have some form of custodial
and hospital treatment and custodial care for addicts. We know in
Baltimore there are some beds we can have available at the Baltimore
City Hospital. We know what it would cost, but that does not begin
to solve the problem because, if I commit them there under some form
of probation, they get off the drug in a few weeks, and then what
happens? You have to let them out of the city hospital. There is
no place, no room, for them. No facilities. Nothing has happened.
You have just given it a pinprick, and that is all.
However, if there were some kind of treatment and custodial care
on the local level that lasted long enough to make sure that there was
a chance of helping them and saving them, we would get somewhere.
Of course, then there is this continued full cooperation that I speak
304 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
about thai exists in Baltimore City. Then vou come to education on
the adult level.
Senators, I do not mind saying, when this committee's job is done,
there will be, in some sections of the country, an awakened interest
that will last a few months, in some places it will last a year, and in
some it will die out the day after the committee's reports are finished.
In some cases the work will go on for a long while.
I also understand from the Federal people that it is a mistake to
try to educate on the teen-age or adolescent level. I won't argue with
educators about a subject they know more about than I pretend to
know.
The Chairman. "We have such respect for your judgment and
know you have given as much thought and study to it as anyone in
America, certainly the very successful results that have come from it
have indicated the soundness of your views, that wTe would be interest-
ed to know whether you feel, by widespread discussion of it, by such
educational steps as you have outlined, there would be any greater
danger of suggesting to youth that they go in for this, Judge ?
Judge Sherbow. My experience in the courts and as a parent
indicated to me that it is a lot better to tackle the subject, with reason-
able reservations, than to adopt the "pish-tush" attitude of uOh, don't
let's talk about it."
I disagree with that, but I do not want to quarrel with educators
or others who maintain you ought not to do it. You have asked for
my view. I disagree with them.
If you were to conduct in this country the kind of educational cam-
paign that would be approved by people wmo have familiarity with
the subject, there isn't anything about drugs that you could glamorize
if you approach this properly. You do not glamorize it by showing
the horrors or coming out of the use of it and just a couple of movies
of that sort and teen-agers would not think it was the right thing to do.
I think it is a mistake to adopt the view that you ought not to talk
with youngsters about it. My own experience with my own and as
president of a PTA for about 9 years — one of the largest in the city —
and in dealing with, as you know, a lot of law students, indicates that
these youngsters are smart today. They are intelligent. They know
the score. You do not fool them by drawing the curtain and saying,
"Do not look behind it."
I myself would be in favor of an educational program properly
directed.
I say in the nine points that I have here that it should be conducted
on an adult level. I think that is our biggest and our main job. I
think the others can be tested out. I think that it can be carefully
examined and tried out in some testing areas. My own guess is it will
be all right.
The Chairman. "We recall — and I am sure you do — that it hasn't
hern so many years ago that a number of persons shied off and there
was the hush-hush attitude that you described with regard to social
disease problems. "When certain names were taboo, and no news-
paper would even allow them to be included on their pages. Yet,
a ft er coming to see the benefits of education in that field, very salutary
results were attained.
Judge Sherbow. T do not think you ever have to fear education
properly directed where young people are involved, if you give them
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 305
all the facts. I am not talking about propaganda. They will see
right through it. If you let them have all the facts and they see what
is involved — of course, you will have a few weak ones who will go to
drugs anyway. The vast majority do not even know how to recognize
a friend who is taking drugs. I venture to say, if you took the entire
school population of any large city — I am talking about the adolescent
group — you wouldn't find many who could tell you even if they had
identified to them a marijuana smoker or a heroin addict, because they
would never had known the symptoms. To me this is the saddest of
all, that the parents do not know — that is tragic.
That is the picture on the constructive side of what can be done. We
already have had a strengthening of the criminal laws.
Senator Kefauver. I think your statement about the narcotics prob-
lem is a very good one, Judge. It certainly shows that we have a lot
to do, not only on the enforcement level, but also on the educational
level, and also on the treatment level.
Judge Sherbow. May I interrupt and make one other observation.
The thing that struck me was the fact that hardly any people whom
I knew could believe there could be addicts in the middle-class popula-
tion. They thought it was all among the groups in the lower economic
levels, downtrodden shun residents, and the sad part of what is now
being uncovered is the fact that that is just not so. There is a larger
percentage there but, unfortunately, there are too many who are in
the better economic groups and people who have had a fair education.
Senator Kefauver. All right. Judge.
What is the next problem involved ?
The Chairman. Senator Kefauver. I would like, if I may, to have
the benefit of the judge's views and comments, if he sees fit to make it,
and if he will be good enough to cooperate with us. in regard to another
phase of this problem. It has to do with the matter, as was previously
referred to a minute ago, in regard to the social diseases, and we had
requested the American Social Hygiene Association to make a study of
conditions in the Baltimore area in regard to vice and various phases
of that problem.
As Mr. Rice, our counsel, just reminded me, one of the serious aspects
is its proximity to military reservations, not only Fort George G.
Meade, but Aberdeen, Edgewood, and Holabird, and a number of
other Army and Navy reservations. Judge, we received from the
American Social Hygiene Society a summary of their findings after
they had people go into the city, and that was brought up to date as
of June 1951. I would like to read it, if I may, and then see whether
you think it is, generally speaking, an accurate summary. It is as
follows :
No flagrant prostitution activity was discovered in Baltimore, Md. Neither
were any bellboys or cabdrivers found who offered to act as go-betweens. How-
ever, in 21 bars and night clubs prostitutes were encountered plying their trade
somewhat cautiously. Some were "hustlers" who decorated the bars almost
daily, others were employed as witness-"drink rustlers," still others acted as en-
tertainers.
All of the night clubs furnished so-called entertainment . which featured the
^'strip tease." It was distinctly lewd and indecent designed to stimulate the sex
impulse.
Merchant marines and many servicemen apparently were the chief patrons
of the resorts.
Minors were observed to be barred from all places investigated.
306 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Generally speaking, Judge, would you say that that summarizes
the situation ?
Judge Sherbow. I would say "Yes," with this reservation. I would
say that that puts it in a more conservative light. It is a bit on the
conservative side. My experience hasn't been quite so pretty a picture.
Mr. Rice. Judge, would you say that there was any commercialized
aspect to the problem ?
Judge Sherbow. No.
Mr. Rice. Organized?
Judge Sherbow. If you mean by that commercialized as it was in
the old days, with houses, I would say not in Baltimore. But I think
the statement Senator O'Conor read that you couldn't get cab drivers
or bellboys — they didn't ask the right ones, because I have had some
cases tried before me where apparently they did ask the right ones.
I will say this : That in Baltimore City the cases we get are the
isolated cases, because the squad dealing with vice is right on the job
The Chairman. In that connection, we were interested, of course,
particularly in any possible interstate connections.
Judge Sherbow. I would say, from everything that I know about
it, the answer would be "No." There is none. What we have in Balti-
more is on just about the scale that was described there, except that,
as to some of the details, I am unwilling to go along, because some of
the cases I have tried indicate differently. Large scale, no. Inter-
state, no. That it does exist, that it is confined to certain areas, yes.
Of course, what they say with respect to minors, I think on the whole
is true, but, unfortunately, our experience with minors has been on
the nonprofessional level. I do not mean to indict the taxicab drivers
because 99y2 percent of them in Baltimore are fine, swell, family
people. I didn't want to give that wrong impression.
Senator Kefauver. Anything else, Mr. Rice ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Judge, there has been some testimony here yesterday and possibly
there will be some today indicating that the subject of gambling is not
quite unknown in your area. It has been indicated that horse books
and possibly numbers places are something that are fairly prevalent,,
you might say almost wide open. I wonder if that lines up with your
observations ?
Judge Sherbow. Well, let me first, if I may, state my position. As
judge, I try them, I do not catch them. I do not want to say or do
anything that would, in any way, disqualify me from trying cases that
may be pending or may hereafter come before me. If you want gen-
eral observations, Mr. Rice, I will be glad to give them to you.
Mr. Rice. Yes. If you have a general observation about the pat-
tern that the gambling is taking, we would like to hear it.
Judge Sherbow. Yes, I can give that to you, and this is what has
happened : Beginning with early this year, lottery operations have
slowed down. Bookmaking has taken a definite turn. It has slowed
down somewhat. This is what has happened. There were open bull-
pens, there were places where you could get your numbers placed
"u herever you wanted to without much trouble. Then suddenly there
came a crack-down with sentences rather than fines.
What happened after that shows the resourcefulness of those who
were engaged in that enterprise. They next changed their methods
of operation. That was all. To some extent, they moved out of Balti-
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 307
more City and into adjacent counties and now the operation is a little
different. It is all — not all, but a good part of it — done by telephone,
so that you can place a bet, but only instead of it being open and fla-
grant on the street, as it was, you have to do it by telephone. The tele-
phone communications system, telephonic communications system, is
a part of the gamblers' method of operation, and it is a nice, booming,
stage today, in spite of everything that the people will tell you who
are in this enterprise. I keep reminding my friends that 90 percent
of what I hear about their having gone out of business is propaganda,
nice propaganda, but it is true.
Mr. Rice. You feel, then, that the bookmaker has followed the pat-
tern we found in some other sections of the country, where they have
withdrawn into what might be called an insulated operation, where
they move into an apartment or something of that sort and take the
bets over the telephone without the customer actually making physical
contact, coming into the apartment at all ?
Judge Sherbow. Oh. sure. I can give you instances of that where
one lady in Anne Arundel County, which adjoins Baltimore City, was
approached one day by two men who wanted to rent her front room.
They were going to do some surveying in the neighborhood. They
rented the room. She found out later they were using her telephone
for bookmaking and she notified the police. I don't want to comment
on the activities of the police outside of our jurisdiction.
The police department waited for the men to return to Baltimore
City that night with their paraphernalia and their money and appre-
hended them there. They are now in prison. But that is only a
part of it. It is on a much greater scale than that, but in that same
method of operation.
Mr. Rice. Do you feel that with that changing pattern developing
into that isolated operation, the existing laws are adequate to cover
the situation, so that the police action can be effected if there is an
honest effort carried out?
Judge Siierbow. We have a peculiar law in Maryland. Not all of
the States have it. I would prefer not to go into that in detail. That
is known as the Bauss law. One of the judges in the court of appeals
in a speech referred to that as probably the greatest protection for
the gamblers. Apart from that, you are speaking about general laws ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Judge Siierbow. I do not know what new laws you need. You
need law enforcement. You do not need new laws, except with what
you are dealing with, the interstate level. This committee acts on
the interstate level. Placing it up there and taking the heart out of
the enterprise by what the committee has recommended will be the
biggest step forward.
Do we need new laws on the local level? No. We need law enforce-
ment.
Mr. Rice. You feel there may be a place for Federal law aimed at
the lay-off bet, the interstate bet ?
Judge Sherbow. No question about it. On the local level, what
you need is law enforcement.
Mr. Rice. With respect to that proposition of enforcement, would
you want to make any comment about whether or not it is possible
in your opinion for gambling to exist on a fairly extensive scale with-
out police cognizance?
308 ORGAXIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Judge Sherbow. Let me put it to you this way: There are seg-
ments of the police department in Baltimore — and I make that
plural, segments — (hat are doing an excellent job insofar as enforce-
ment of the law pertaining to gambling are concerned, but, when you
have an operation that is as large as this is, and has been in existence
for a reasonable period of time and has not been discovered by the
cop on the beat or nearby, then one of the several things is true. Either
the cop is blind or he is incompetent, or he is corrupt.
Mr. Rice. Bringing that down to Baltimore, do you feel, along that
line, there may be some room for improvement?
Judge Sherbow. I certainly do not want to be placed in the posi-
tion of witnesses who have occupied this stand who did not want to
testify, but I would rather not answer that sort of a question for very
obvious reasons, but I put it to you this way : In a department that
has over 2,000 men in it, the vast majority are fine, competent, up-
standing, decent policemen, and let me stoj) at that.
Mr. Rice. But there are minorities in everything.
Judge Sherbow. You answer your question, Mr. Rice. If I am
not pressed
Mr. Rice. We appreciate your position.
Judge Sherbow. Let me point out one more thing, because you said
something about the local situation. I knew if I didn't make a note
of it, I wouldn't remember it. For the first time that I can re-
member a new agency has entered into this field in law enforcement.
That is the board of liquor license commissioners. A great deal of
what goes on goes on around the bars. We have cases where the owners
and proprietors shut their eyes to what is going on which is so obvious
to anybody that even an owner ought to know about it. Recently —
and say for the first time that I can remember — the Board of Liquor
License Commissioners of Baltimore City revoked the licenses of two
downtown establishments, suspended them for a period of 90 days
and said, "If this goes on in your places and you know it or should
have known it, we are going to act."
Mr. Rice. When you are talking about things going on, you are
talking about gambling going on?
Judge Sherbow. Bookmaking, where the bookmaker goes up to
the bar and takes the bets and the bartender and the owner couldn't
help but know it. The board of liquor license commissioners has
struck at the one thing they do not like, their pocketbooks. I am talk-
ing about the owners of the establishments. When they are closed for
90 days or longer, that hits them where they cannot take it. With the
other group, you have to do more than hit their pocketbooks.
Mr. Rice. I can see where that can be very effective, but some of us
feel that tactics like that are in the nature of secondary boycotts. The
true problem is the gambling and it should not be left to the alcoholic
board to prevent gambling.
Judge Sherbow. I agree with that. Like Churchill, however, I am
glad to have any allies at the moment and they happen to be an ally
who has joined forces with us. So that is a good thing. I did not mean
any invidious comparison by that.
Mr. Rice. If you had a chief protagonist in law enforcement, namely
the boys in blue, that won Id be very effective, wouldn't it?
Judge Sherbow. Certain segments of the police department in
Bait imore ( 'ity are doing a good job.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 309
Senator Kefauver. What is your police setup in Baltimore City?
Judge Siierbow. Very unusual, Senator Kefauver. It is under the
Governor. The commission is appointed by the Governor of the State,
but the cost of the entire department is paid by the city of Baltimore.
That stems back to something that happened in 1884, or thereabouts,
where the people wanted the power taken away from the city officials
and placed with the State government. They have never wanted it
placed back.
Senator Kefauver. You mean the mayor and city commissioner
have nothing to do with the police department except to vote money
and to pay for it?
Judge Sherbow. That is right. If the commissioner, under cer-
tain circumstances, were to require it, he could issue script. It has
never been done in the last 40 or 50 years, but it may have been done
earlier. It is under the State government and is removed entirely from
the municipal government.
Senator Kefauver. Is it on a civil-service basis ?
Judge Sherbow. Yes, but not civil service as such. All who come
in must take certain examinations. All promotional examinations are
given by our State civil service commission. But the commission it-
self has the power to make promotions by reaching almost as far down
or anywhere in the list he wants to within certain limits.
Senator Kefauver. Who is the present commissioner of police?
Judge Sherbow. Col. Beverly Ober.
Senator Kefauver. Is that a one-man control? He doesn't have a
commission to operate with him ?
Judge Sherbow. No board of any kind. He is the commissioner.
Senator Kefauver. He hires and fires and has full responsibility?
Judge Sherbow. Complete. He can hire and fire within certain
limitations. For example, a policeman or an officer once on the force
who has passed the probationary period cannot be discharged except
for cause and is entitled to a public hearing.
Senator Kefauver. How about the number of police officers ; is there
a shortage ?
Judge Sherbow. There is a perennial problem in Baltimore. The
commissioner has taken the view there ought to be a larger number
of policemen and his statistics and figures seem to bear out his con-
tention, according to many, but with changing conditions, such as the
use of the automobile by the police, there has been the view by some
that they do not need more in the department now. For the next
budget I understand that the commissioner has asked for an increase
of personnel, but I have made no study of that.
Senator Kefauver. All right, Judge, we thank you very much for
your help.
The Chairman. Before the judge leaves, I think that I might say
that I feel that not only is our city of Baltimore and the State very
fortunate in having such a jurist, but I think he has been of tre-
mendous help to us in this particular situation in the most clear-cut
manner, because we have been able to get at one time the over-all pic-
ture from an authoritative source and in an intelligent and straight-
forward manner. He is entitled to the thanks of the committee and
of everyone for his very fine presentation.
Senator Kefauver. Yes.
Charles Rhudy.
310 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr, Rhudy, do you solemnly swear the testimony you give the com-
mittee will be the whole truth, so help you God?
Mr. Rhttdy. Yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. You are accompanied by?
Mr. Dorset. John H. Dorsey, appearing as counsel for the Balti-
more Sales Co.
Senator Kefauver. Attorney at law, Baltimore?
Mr. Dorset. Washington, D. C.
Senator Kefauver. Proceed, Mr. Rice.
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES S.RHUDY, BALTIMORE SALES CO., BALTI-
MORE, MD., ACCOMPANIED BY JOHN H. DORSEY, ATTORNEY,
WASHINGTON, D. C.
Mr. Rice. Mr. Rhudy, you represent the Baltimore Sales Book Co. ?
Mr. Rhudt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Is that a corporation ?
Mr. Riiudt. It is a corporation; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And where is that located?
Mr. Rhudt. In Baltimore, Md.
Mr. Rice. Is there an address ?
Mr. Rhudt. It is 3130-50 Frederick Avenue.
Mr. Rice. Are you an officer of the corporation ?.
Mr. Rhudt. No, I am not an officer.
Mr. Rice. What is your capacity?
Mr. Rhudt. My title is sales promotion manager. I am really in
charge of the wholesale department.
Mr. Rice. In your capacity, then, as sales promotion manager, you
are familiar generally with the business affairs of the company?
Mr. Rhudt. Yes, I am.
Mr. Rice. And you are familiar with the records?
Mr. Rhudt. Yes, I am ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. I believe your company is in the business of publishing,
printing, paper, and supplies, and things like that?
Mr. Rhudt. It is in the business of printing chiefly business forms,
sales books, for the recording of business transactions, and primarily
we print books for department stores.
We print business forms for the United States Government.
Mr. Rice. Generally, what area is served by the company, Mr.
Rhudy?
Mr. Rhudt. Generally, since our products are heavy, freight is a
factor, and I would say east of the Mississippi. I would draw a line
from Illinois to Texas and that would just about cover it. I noticed
the other day in looking over the records that we have made ship-
ments to every State in the Union and to Puerto Rico.
Mr. Rice. As you know, we are particularly interested in these little
books commonly called K books or more commonly known as numbers
books.
.Mr. Rhudt. I don't know them as numbers books.
Mr. Rice. And I think your company does produce some of them.
Mr. Rhudt. Yes, we do.
Mr. Rice. Would you tell us a little bit about what they are used
for. according to what you know?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 311
Mr. Ehudy. I have been with the company 20 years. When I
came with the company that was in the stock book line and I have
heard of their use as receipt books, as laundry tickets, inventory
records. We ourselves use them in the factory in certain departments
where we need a triplicate record made in a hurry. You can make
a triplicate record there with only one piece of carbon, as you can
see.
Mr. Rice. So it is possible to use this book for any purpose where
triplicate copies would be needed?
Mr. Rhtjdy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Is that correct?
Mr. Rhtjdy. That is right.
Mr. Rice. We understand one another on that score.
Mr. Rhtjdy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Now, we believe we asked you to furnish us some records
•of the extent of your sales of this type of book.
Mr. Rhtjdy. Yes, you did.
Mr. Rice. Over the past several years.
Mr. Rhtjdy. Well, I was asked to bring figures as to the number
•of K books for 3 years and a half-year period.
Mr. Rice. For what period?
Mr. Rhtjdy. Three years and six months of this year, 1951. The
iirst year, in 1948, we produced 8,189,000 K books.
Mr. Rice. You are talking about individual books, not cases?
Mr. Rhtjdy. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. How many triplicate tickets are there to a book?
Mr. Rhtjdy. There are 50 triplicate sets to a book.
Mr. Rice. I see.
Mr. Rhtjdy. Fifty sets in triplicate.
Mr. Rice. These figures you are supplying relate to individual
"books?
Mr. Rhtjdy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. All right, sir.
Mr. Rhtjdy. That figure amounts to 6.8 percent of our total dollar
volume.
Mr. Rice. I see.
Mr. Riitdv. And in 1949 we shipped 7,939,000 books, which was 7
percent of our total dollar volume : and in 1950 we produced 9,389,000
"books, which accounted for 6 percent of the volume : and the 6 months
this year through June we produced 3,873,000 books, which is 5 per-
cent of our volume.
Through July 25, when your investigator was there, we produced
•290,000 books for that month.
Mr. Rice. Have you been able to analyze that shipment to deter-
mine any trend in connection with this business?
Mr. Rhtjdy. Well. I was asked for the break-down of the figures
of the customers and the addresses. I have those here.
Mr. Rice. I understand. I wondered if in your mind you have
been able to determine any trend, whether the sales are up or down.
Mr. Rhtjdy. Well, I think the sales are down. I don't know about
the trend. Over 90 percent of these books go to wholesale stationers
and paper dealers and less than 10 percent by far go to individuals.
We have no way of knowing the end use of the book at all.
312 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rick. I understand you are a wholesaler.
Mr. Riudv. That is right, sir.
Mr. Rice. Occasionally you will sell over the counter if an indi-
vidual comes in?
Mr. Rinnv. Yes, two or three times a month we have somebody
st<>|> in iiinl buy some books at the plant, not only these books, but
every stock book we make.
Mr. Rice. Could you give us some idea of the amount of competi-
tion you have in this area, if you have any major competitors, or
whether you are (lie major supplier?
Mr. Rhudy. You mean the K book ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Riiudy. Yes, we do have competition. I believe there are some
books stored in a warehouse here in Washington by the Pittsburgh
Sales Book Co.
Mr. Rice. The Pittsburgh Sales Book Co. sells in this area?
Mr. Rhudy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Would you have any idea about the extent of your sales
as compared with the Pittsburgh Sales Book Co.?
Mr. Riiudy. No, I would not.
Mr. Rice. You wouldn't know?
Mr. Rhudy. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. You think their sales are substantial ?
Mr. Riiudy. I would think so, yes. I hear of competition by vari-
ous dealers.
Mr. Rice. "Would you supply us with the names and addresses of
some of the major purchasers of the K books in the last few years
here?
Mr. Rhudy. Here ?
Mr. Rice. Well, in the area here. I think you were asked to bring
some figures on that.
Senator Kefauver. I think the staff here has the list. Why don't
we let
Mr. Riiudy. Mr. Smith asked for several sales record cards, tWo
of which are here in Washington, I believe. Shall I give those to you,
Mr. Smith?
Mr. Rice. Yes, go ahead.
Mr. Rhudy. They are the cards.
Mr. Dorset. You want the cards?
Mr. Rick. What are those?
Mr. Riudv. The M. S. (Jinn Co.
Mr. Rice. M. S. Ginn?
Mr. Rhudy. Company, yes, sir.
Mr. Rick. How many have you sold to M. S. Ginn in recent years!1
Mr. Rhudy; In recenl years, that would be— this is only an order
by order basis. T don't have it
Mr. Rick. We have it summarized. The figures that are contained
on the card for M. S. (iinn were for the years L947, 147,000 K books;
1948, 220,000 K books: L949, L87,500 K books; L950, L88,500; and for
the first 6 months of this year. <'.•_'.;>( Hi.
We figured out that over that l-year period there had been, figur-
ing thai there were 50 tickets to a book", if they were used for numbers,,
it would amount to some 94,000,000 plays on the numbers.
Mr. Rhudy. I wouldn't
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 313
Mr. Rice. A figure between '1 and 4 million dollars per year in plays
on that if yon figure 25 cents a play, which is a figure that the Inter-
nal Revenue Bureau says is the average play on a number. I know
you have no information on that.
Mr. Rhudy. No, sir: I do not.
Mr. Rick. Now, will von tell us some of the major purchasers in
Philadelphia?
Mi-. Rhudy. Yes, sir. We have two distributors in Philadelphia,
one is J. Kinderman.
Mr. Rice. John Kinderman Sons. 131 Market Street \
Mr. Rhudy. That is right.
Mr. Rice. They have hundreds of thousands of purchases too?
Mr. Rhudy. And then Joseph Koenig.
Mr. Rice. In Philadelphia \
Mr. Rhudy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. How about Detroit?
Mr. Rhudy. Well, we have the Liberty News Co. out there, whole-
sale stationers, wholesale paper dealer.
Mr. Rice. Are they also substantial purchasers?
Mr. Rhudy. Yes; I would say so.
Mr. Rice. Who are some of the purchasers in Baltimore '.
Mr. Rhudy. Well, the only one that we sell in Baltimore is Emmett
Vogel, who has a stationery store, our representative there, our dis-
trict manager.
Mr. Rice. 701 North Howard?
Mr. Rhudy. Yes.
Mr. Rice. I see in 1950, 518,100 K books were sold to him.
Mr. Rhudy. Mr. Smith copied the records; I assume that is right.
Mr. Rice. I have the few more we might use for the record, Air.
Chairman. I will read them off.
The Chairman. I think as we go along it ought to be noted there
is no improper inference to be drawn from the fact that a certain
legitimate dealer bought a certain number of books, because I know
in the case of Mr. Yogel, to whom you just referred, he is a very repu-
table and splendid citizen.
Mr. Rhudy. Even7 one I mentioned, we wouldn't deal with them
if they weren't.
The Chairman. I didn't want to have it thought that by reason
of the mention of the name, that there was anything that might indi-
cate any illegal or irregular use of the book necessarily.
Mr. Rhudy. Thank you, sir. Emmett handles 30 or 40 different
styles of books and sells them over the counter like any other stationer.
Senator Kefauver. Let's get on with this.
Mr. Rice. I see that L. W. Hargett, down in Phoenix City, Ala.,
was sold 10,000 K books on July 16, 1951.
Mr. Rhudy. That was an error. I found out, after Mr. Smith left
that L. W. Hargett was the name of a customer of a dealer in Colum-
bus, Ga., named Leon Wolfson.
Mr. Rice. Xone was sold to Hargett?
Mr. Rhudy. The books were sold to Leon B. Wolfson, who appar-
ently in turn sent the order in, and the books were shipped to Hargett.
Mr. Rice. The books were shipped to Hargett but were purchased
by Wolfson ? But they were sent to Phoenix City?
Mr. Rhudy. Yes, sir.
314 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Eice. Columbus Sales Book, Columbus, Ohio, ordered 12,500..
Otto Solomon, Kingston, N. Y., bought 500 that day.
Mr. Rhudy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Glen Orrel Paper Co. of Cleveland, 10,000 K books.
.Mr. Rhudy. That was an error, sir. That shouldn't have been a K
book. That was a restaurant check. However, we have
Mr. Rice. We will delete that from the record.
Mr. Rhudy. That is a mistake.
Senator Kefauver. The only point in this testimony is that these
books might be used for bookmaking; they might be used for a hun-
dred other things. I support the great number sold would indicate
that there are a great many used for bookmaking. Is that the point?
Mr. Rice. Yes, Senator. I think those familiar with law enforce-
ment recognize that type of slip is found in tremendous quantities in
every raid in numbers places. There has been testimony by experts
to that effect.
Mr. Rhudy. That is the cheapest triplicate book on the market. As
a matter of fact, it sells for less than some of the duplicate books we
sell through the variety stores.
Mr. Rice. What does that retail for ?
Mr. Rhudy. Five cents.
Mr. Rice. Five cents ?
Mr. Rhudy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. It might be interesting to note for the record that on
the day that our staff member was over in Baltimore at the company r
a number of cases were sold for Washingon, I believe, to Sidney H.
Klein, Sidney's Variety, 1808 Seventh Street NW., Washington. I
think he took 10 cases.
Shortly after that, one of our staff members went to Klein's store on
Seventh Street and asked for K books and bought two for a quarter.
Mr. Rhudy. Is that so ?
Mr. Rice. The price had gone up over here in contrast to the nar-
cotics situation.
Mr. Rhudy. I am sorry I can't make a comparable wholesale price.
Senator Kefauver. This is very interesting, but I don't think we
can place any inference that these books that have been mentioned
here were necessarily for any illegal purpose. Tlie}y seem to be sold
to book stores and anybody can come in and buy them if they want
to for any purpose. So I think that will be all on that.
Is there something else you want to ask this Avitness ?
Mr. Rice. No, sir.
Senator Kefauvj r. That is all. Thank you. sir.
Mr. Riiudy. Thank you.
Senator Kefauver. Call your next witness, please.
Mr. Rick. Waldo Roberts.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Roberts, do you swear the testimony you
give the committee will be the whole truth, so help you God?
Mr. Rob] rts. Yes.
Senator Ki pai ver. All right, let's gel to the questions.
TESTIMONY OF WALDO ROBERTS, ARLINGTON, VA.
Mr. Rick. Where do you live, Mr. Roberts \
Mi-. Roberts. mTl'l' South Third Si reet, Arlington, Va.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 315
Mr. Rice. In Virginia?
Mr. Roberts. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And what is your business ?
Mr. Roberts. I am a driver-salesman for Embassy Dairy in
Washington.
Mr. Rice. You are a driver for the Embassy Dairy. How long
have you been doing that, Mr. Roberts ?
Mr. Roberts. Since August 19, last year.
Mr. Rice. 1950?
Mr. Roberts. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. And during the war were you in the service ?
Mr. Roberts. I spent from the 8th of June 1940, to the 12th of
January 1950, in the Marine Corps.
Mr. Rice. In the Marine Corps until what year ?
Mr. Roberts. January 12, 1950.
Mr. Rice. You were in until January 12, 1950 ?
Mr. Roberts. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Now. upon your discharge from the Marine Corps, what
did you do?
Mr. Roberts. I come out of the Marine Corps and went to work,
I believe it was in February, for Pioneer Laundry, drove a laundry
truck.
The Chairman. While you are on the stand may I ask you to keep
your voice up. Anybody with that fine physique can talk louder, I
know. When you drop your voice nobody can hear.
Mr. Roberts. Do you want me to repeat the question ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Roberts. I went to work for Pioneer Laundry and drove a
laundry truck until August, when I quit and went to work for
Embassy Dairy.
Mr. Rice. During that time did you become familiar with numbers
operations ?
Mr. Roberts. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Rice. Tell us about that from the beginning.
Mr. Roberts. Well, in 1944, right after I got married, I was living
at my brother-in-law's, and we went to a party, my wife and I, to a
Mr. Lee's house. He was a pick-up man.
Mr. Rice. Who '.
Mr. Roberts. Mr. Lee : Blight Lee. He was a pick-up man.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Roberts. In 1944, up until July of 1950 I was a personal
acquaintance of his, and he offered me a proposition of taking over his
route on a commission basis.
Senator Kefatjver. Where is Mr. Lee now \
Mr. Roberts. I believe he is living in Maryland. I haven't had
any contact with him since July, last year.
Senator Kefaiver. I will ask the staff to notify Mr. Lee of the tes-
t imony of this witness and invite him to come if he can be found.
Mr. Rice. Where did you say he lives?
Mr. Roberts. He at that time was living at 2700 South June Street,
in Arlington. Where he is living now I don't know.
Mr. Rice. You say lie interested you in a numbers proposition ?
Mr. Roberts. We talked about it. I played numbers here in Wash-
ington, and we talked about it more or less, and he offered me a propo-
316 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
sition of taking over his route — he wanted to stop picking up num-
bers— and taking it over, and lie would start me at $00 a week to begin
with until after I had learned it, and then he would give me the
commission, and he would just take the kick-back on it.
Mr. Kick. Did you do that?
Mr. Roberts No; I didn't.
Mr. Rice. During the time that you were negotiating with him did
you go around with him?
Mr. Roberts. Yes; I went with him once.
Mr. Rick. What did you see?
Mr. Roberts. I saw him pick up — first we went to this house in
northeast and picked up the ribbons.
Mr. Rick. Do you know where that was '.
Mr. Roberts. I know where the house is. I don't know the address
of the house. I can take you to the house.
Mr. Rice. Do you know the street?
Mr. Roberts. No, sir: but I can still take you to the house.
Mr. Rice. When was that?
Mr. Roberts. L949.
Mr. Rick. You went with him in his car?
Mr. Roberts. Y>s. we did. in a Packard. 1047 Packard.
Mr. Kick. You went to the house and what happened?
Mr. Roberts. He went in the house, I stayed out in the car and
waited for him, and he came out with the bag of ribbons, the tape
Mr. Rick. The ribbons?
Mr. Roberts. The tapes on the play.
Mr. Rick. That is adding-machine tape?
Mr. Roberts. That is right. Then we went to this colored person's
house and there he had three or four bags that was in a drawer, and
he had met — another fellow came in there, a colored man that was
working for him at the time.
Mr. Kick. Where was that house, Mr. Koberts?
Mr. Roberts. 1 can show you that house, too. but I can't tell you the
address.
Mr. Rick. Is that northeast, too?
Mr. Roberts. Yes. sir.
Mr. Rick. Then what happened? What did he tell you these bags
Mere?
Mr. Roberts. I seen him. He opened them up and took out the rib-
bons on them, the sheets for the hits, and what diave-vou. The bags in
the drawer, he settled the ribbons, squared them off. which way they
went, and what money went in them bags and what money didn't', what
they owed him, put them back in the drawer.
Then he give the colored fellow a Hock of ribbons and then we went
from there to another house. We went in this house, in the basement,
and eventually the colored fellow came in and joined us. and they set-
tled up the money and squared up the ribbons.
Mr. Rick. Then what happened?
Mr. Roberts. Then we went home.
Mr. Rick. Do you know the address of any of those places?
Mr. Roberts. No; but I know the houses/
Mr. Rick. Who was Blight Lee working for, if you know?
Mr. Roberts. He told me he was working for Charlie Nelson.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 317
Senator Kefauvek. Unless you know some other way, I don't think
we should pursue that. Is Mr. Nelson here?
Mr. Nelson. I am.
Senator Kefauver. You are here and you will have your oppor-
tunity of talking immediately after Mr. Roberts.
Mr. Rice. What did Blight Lee tell you about his operation, who lie
was working- for?
Mr. Roberts. He told me he worked for a Charlie Nelson.
Mr. Rice. What did he say about that?
Mr. Roberts. Well, that he had worked for him for the past 15
years or so.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever meet Nelson ?
Mr. Roberts. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. Rice. Do you know who he is ?
Mr. Roberts. No. sir; I don't.
Mr. Rice. Did he tell you who he is?
Mr. Roberts. Yes, sir. He told me he was his backer.
Mr. Rice. Did he tell you where he lived '.
Mr. Roberts. North Beach is all he ever told me. Said he owned
property there.
Mr. Rice. North Beach, Md. ?
Mr. Roberts. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. At North Beach, Md. Did he tell you whereabouts in
North Beach, Md. ?
Mr. Roberts. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Were you with him at any time he contacted Nelson?
Mr. Roberts. No; he was going to take me over to Mr. Nelson to
meet him a couple of times, but something some way or some other,
Ave didn't go.
Mr. Rice. He was attempting to interest you in taking over his
route, is that the idea ?
Mi-. Roberts. We discussed it many times ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Did he discuss how you were to keep from being locked
up if you took over ?
Mr. Roberts. Well, he said I would be furnished with protection,
that bondsmen and everything necessary, if I did get picked up,
would be furnished.
Senator Kefauver. I think we have had enough of this. Mr. Lee
is not here, and he is telling what Mr. Lee said. Unless we have got
something direct, let's not ask any more questions.
Suppose you stand aside.
Come around, Mr. Nelson.
Mr. Nelson, do you swear the testimony you give the committee
will be the whole truth, so help you God?
Mr. Nelson. I do.
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES E. NELSON, RITCHIE, MD.
Senator Kefauver. Ask him whether he did business with Mr. Lee.
Mr. Rice. Where do }rou live, Mr. Nelson \
Mr. Nelson. Sir?
Mr. Rice. Where do you live ?
Mr. Nelson. Ritchie, Md.
85277—51- pt. 17 21
318 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. Ritchie, Md. What is your address, your post-office
address?
Mr. Nelson. Washington 19, D. C.
Mr. Rice. Just Washington 19?
Mr. Nelson. You mean the mailing address?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. It is a peculiar situal ion. Yrou probably don't under-
stand. The post office is in the 1 >ist rict, but we actually live in Mary-
land. Is that what confuses you?
Mr. Rice. 1 could address you at Ritchie, Md. ?
Mr. Nelson. No; Washington 19, D. C.
Mr. Rice. If someone were to write a letter to you, what would
they put on the envelope?
Mr. Nelson. II' they just put my name and Washington 19, D. C,
I get the letter. We live in a rural area on a farm.
Senator Kefauver. You live in Ritchie, Mi I. '.
Mr. Nelson. That is tight.
Mr. Rice. What business are you in \
Mr. Nelson. President of North Beach Amusement Co., and I am
a farmer.
Mr. Rice. You are a fanner and president of North Beach Amuse-
ment Co. \
Mr. Nelson. That is light; raise purebred stock, including race
horses, running horses.
Mr. Rick. Do you own the race horses?
Mi-. Nelson. How is that?
Mr. Rice. Do you own the race horses? Do you own the race
horses \
Mr. Nelson. I raise race horses. I have to own them to raise them.
Mr. Rice. Are you licensed to race horses?
Mr. Nelson. Yes; I have three, I think it is, horses that are at the
race track.
Mr. Rick. Do you have any at the present time? Are you licensed
to race horses in any States?
Mr. Nelson. At the present time?
Mr. Rick. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. I imagine in Atlantic City, yes, now at the present
time, or should he.
Mr. Rick. How about in Maryland?
Mr. Nelson. I have raced horses in Maryland.
Mr. Rice. How recent Iv \
Mr. Nelson. Last spring, I guess.
Mr. Ri.k. In the spring of 1951?
Mr. Nelson. Yes; I think 1 had a horse or two at the race track in
the spring.
Mr. Rice. So you were licensed this year, }tou are licensed this year,
L951, t<> race in Maryland?
Mr. Nelson. How is that \
Mr. Rice. You are licensed this year, L951, to race in Maryland \
Mr. Nelson. I am not certain thai I was. but I assume that I was.
Mr. Kick. Did you ever hear of License No. 6841, issued April
20, 1951, to Charles Nelson. White House Road. C.SCS White House
Road?
Mr. Nelson. What is that?
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 319
Mr Rice You live at 6868 White House Road?
Mr. Nelson. That is the number known as 6868 where I live; yes.
Mr Rice I have here a record of a racing license in Maryland
issued April 20, 1951, No. 6841, for Charles K. Nelson. I- that you l
Mr. Nelson. I would assume that is me. I am not certain of it.
It could very easily be me. I imagine it is.
Mr. Rice." All right, sir. Tell as a little bit about this North Beach
Amusement Co. What are the officers of that company \
Mr. Nelson. The officers ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Myself, Mrs. Nelson. Mr. Samuel R. Huey, and Charles
E., Junior.
Mr. Rice. I didn't hear the last two names.
Mr. Nelson. Charles E., Junior. You said you didn't hear the
names ?
Mr. Rice. No. I heard you and your wife. That is all I heard.
Mr. Nelson. You want me to repeat the names I
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Myself and Mrs. Nelson, Charles E., Junior.
Mr. Rice. Charles E. Nelson, Junior \
Mr. Nelson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Your son?
Mr. Nelson. That is right. You said my son ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. That is right. And Mr. Samuel R. Huey.
Mr. Rice. How do you spell that \
Mr. Nelson. I think Mr. Huey spells his name H-u-e-y. I believe
it is.
Mr. Rice. Where does he live ?
Mr. Nelson. He lives out in northwest some place, darned if I know.
I know his telephone number. I never had occasion to go out there.
Mr. Rice. What is his telephone number?
Mr. Nelson. Woodley 3886, I think it is. I am not certain.
Mr. Rice. What business does the North Beach Amusement Co. do ?
What is your line of business \ What business is it, the North Beach
Amusement Co.?
Mr. Nelson. What business is it?
Mr. Rice. Yes. Tell us about your business. What sort of busi-
ness do you do '.
Mr. Nelson. You mean operation of the company '.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Well, we run a lunchroom, a bar, arcade, bingo.
Mr. Rice. Where is that \
Mr. Nelson. Concession stands.
Mr. Rice. Where is it \ Where is it ? Is that Uncle Billy's?
Mr. Nelson. Uncle Billy's.
Mr. Rice. Do they have slot machines there ?
Mr. Nelson. Yes, arcade.
Mr. Rice. How long has it been since you have had slot machines
there ?
Mr. Nelson. We have had slot machines there for the past 2 or 3
years or maybe a little longer.
Mr. Rice." You have had them for the last 5 or 6 years, haven't you?
320 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Nelson. I don't recall, I wouldn't say that we have. We put
the slot machines in there when they were licensed.
Mr. Rice. How about before they were licensed?
Mr. Nelson. I don't recall having any machines before they were
licensed.
Mr. Rice. You can't remember that, can you?
Mr. Nelson. I don't recall having any before they were licensed.
Is that what
Mr. Rice. Is it possible you had some before they were licensed?
Mr. Nelson. I hardly think so.
Mr. Rice. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Nelson. What did you say?
Mr. Rice. I asked }rou if it is possible you had some before they were
licensed.
Mr. Nelson. I hardly think so.
Mr. Rice. You hardly think so?
Senator Kefaitver. Is this Uncle Billy's in Maryland?
Mr. Nelson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What other business do you have? Do you have any
other companies?
Mr. Nelson. No.
Mr. Rice. How about the Nowland Co?
Mr. Nelson. I have no interest in the Nowland Co., know nothing
about Nowland Co.
Mr. Rice. You have no interest in the Nowland Co?
Mr. Nelson. I don't know of any Nowland Co.
Mr. Rice. You don't know of any. Did you ever have an interest
in the Nowland Co?
Mr. Nelson. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever hear of Robert Nowland and Associates?
Mr. Nelson. Yes; I have heard of Robert Nowland.
Mr. Rice. What is that?
Mr. Nelson. What is it?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Really, I don't know what it is.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any interest in it?
Mr. Nelson. I have no interest in it at all.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever had an interest in it?
Mr. Nelson. Yes, I have.
Mr. Rice. When was that?
Mr. Nelson. That has been a number of years ago.
Mr. Rice. How many years ago?
Mr. Nelson. Probably 10, 7 or 8.
Mr. Rice. Have you had any interest in the Nowland Co. in the
past 10 years ?
Mr. Nelson. When you say interest
Mr. Rice. Yes. Have you received any money from it?
Mr. Nelson. What was it you wanted to know?
Mr. Rice. Have you received any money from the Robert Nowland
and Associates Co. in the last 10 years?
Mr. Nelson. I probably have.
Mr. Rice. Well, let's get a little bit definite about thai and see what
you have.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 321
Mr. Nelson. If you knew Mr. Nowland and knew how hard he was
to get money out of, even if he owed you some money — I don't mean
any — then you could understand what I mean.
Mr. Rice. "Well, you must have worked mighty hard there for a
while, because I see in 1947 that you took some $19,000 out of the
Robert Nowland Associates.
Mr. Nelson. You said I worked mighty hard?
Mr. Rice. On him, yes. Now tell us about that. Let's be a little bit
frank here and tell us what Robert Nowland Associates is.
Mr. Xelson. I really wouldn't know.
Mr. Rice. You have been getting money from it for the last 5 or 10
years. Tell us what it is.
Mr. Nelson. The only thing, I don't have any way of telling. I
wasn't actively engaged in the thing. All I done was
The Chairman. Let me ask you a question. Is it not a fact that
you have been receiving large sums of money from this concern and
have been paying income taxes on it?
Mr. Nelson. Well, if
The Chairman. Just answer yes or no.
Mr. Nelson. Whatever is on the income tax.
The Chairman. You are the witness, sworn to tell the truth. Did
you or did you not ?
Mr. Nelson. Did I or did I not what ?
The Chairman. Pay income taxes on large sums of money received
from this concern.
Mr. Nelson. I always pay income taxes on whatever money I re-
ceive.
The Chairman. Then don't try to tell us that you don't know when
you received the money and paid income taxes on it. Now you are a
pretty smart man, and we don't think
Mr. Nelson. I am not trying to make you believe I don't want to
cooperate.
The Chairman. Why don't you tell us frankly then what you
know ?
Mr. Nelson. Sir ?
The Chairman. Why don't you tell us frankly what you know
instead of letting us try to — instead of trying to conceal the facts and
make it look like you don't know what this is all about?
Mr. Nelson. After you have talked with me a while, maybe you
will have a different opinion of me. You will find that I will try to
cooperate.
The Chairman. Then suppose you tell us what the concern is and
what you received from it?
Mr. Nelson. What I received from Nowland Associates?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. I don't remember honestly, I don't remember.
Mr. Rice. What type of business is it?
Mr. Nelson. I really don't know. I was never actively engaged in
it in any way.
Mr. Rice. How did you get into it ?
Mr. Nelson. I furnished the money.
Mr. Rice. You furnished the money. How much money did you
furnish ?
322 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Nelson. I don't know about that.
Mr. Rice. Approximately.
.Mr. \i lson. Well, that would alternate from time to time, and I,
just to take it right out of my head, it is next to an impossible thing to
do.
Mr. Rice. "Was it five dollars or a hundred thousand dollars.
Mr. Nelson. My goodness, not a hundred thousand dollars.
The Chairman. How much was it I
Mr. Nelson. I really — it may have been — let's put it this way.
Maybe I can better answer your question this way: It may have been
as much as five thousand or it may have been as much as twenty at
differenl times.
Mr. Rice. What were you putting the money up for ?
Mr. Nelson. For the business to be operated on.
Mi'. Rice. What business?
Mr. Nelson. Weren't you talking about Nowland \
Mr. Kick. Yes; and you said for the business to be operated. What
son of business?
Mi-. Nelson. I never discussed that with him at all.
Mr. Kick. Now, let's see. You say you put up as much as $20,000
with whom?
Mr. Nelson. You asked me what my connection was with the busi-
ness, and I said I furnished the money.
Mr. Rice. Tell us all about it, how you got into it, what you were
doing, what you put up, and what your situation was there.
Mi'. Xelsox. That is all I know about it.
Mr. Rice. You know a lot more about it than that. Who is Mr.
Nowland ?
Mr. Nelson. Who is who?
Mr. Rice. Mr. Nowland.
Mr. Nelson. Who is Mr. Nowland ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Mr. Nowland
Mr. Rice. Robert Nowland.
Mr. Nelson. You asked me who is Mr. Nowland?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. I don't mean to be impertinent, but he is Mr. Nowland.
Senator Kefatjver. Mr. Nelson, we have got to get along better here.
We want to know what was your transaction with Mr. Nowland.
When did you start doing business with him? What was this oper-
ation that you put the money into ? You know about it and you might
as well tell us about it.
Mr. Nelson. The man said he had a way he could make some money,
and I put up the money, and go ahead and make some money, and he
split it with me, which was all right with me.
Senator Kefatjver. What was the way you were going to make the
money \
Mr. Nelson. I never discussed that with him.
Senator KefaUVER. Now. Mr. Nelson, you wouldn't put up $20,000
or $5,000 and not know what the business is going to he. would you?
Would you put up money like that and not know what the business
was going to be?
Mi-. Nelson. You say did I put up money '.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 323
Senator Kef.uvkk. I say it is not natural that you would put up
big sums of money to a man and not know what lie was going to do
with it.
Air. Nelson. I don't understand what you want. I am sorry, but
1 just don't understand.
Senator Kefauver. You understand, Mr. Nelson, but you don't
want to act like you do.
Mr. Nelson. 1 am sorry you feel that way. T am trying to
Senator Kefauver. What did you say and what did Mr. Nowland
say?
Mr. Nelson. "What did Mr. Nowland say?
Senator Kefauver. Yes, when you put up the money and got half
the profit back.
Mr. Nelson. I worked with Mr. Nowland probably some 35 years
ago, and I always felt at that time like he was a nice little fellow, and
1 wanted to see him do well and make a little money if he could.
The Chairman. Let me say this to the witness: Our records show
that you received $180,000 in 4 years as your half of this business
operation, which would represent $.'560,000 in that time, and it was in
full a $6 million operation.
Now what do }^ou want to say about it '. You heard me. Don't ask
me to repeat it. You heard me.
Mr. Nelson. I don't have anything to say about it.
Senator Kefauver. Is that substantially the size of the operation?
Mr. Nelson. I really don't know.
Senator Kefauver. Did you get $180,000 ?
Mr. Nelson. I couldn't say that I did and I wouldn't say that I
didn't.
The Chairman. You don't deny it ?
Mr. Nelson. No; I wouldn't deny it because I am not sure.
The Chairman. And if you received $180,000, do you want us to
believe that you don't know where it came from and what kind of
business was operated in order to pay you $180,000 \
If you want us to believe it, you are absolutely mistaken, because
no sensible man would believe it. and it is an insult to the intelligence
of the committee for you to come here and think that you could get
away with it.
Mr. Nelson. I agree with you it is an embarrassing thing.
The Chairman. Why don't you tell us the truth?
Mr. Nelson. I am trying to tell you the truth.
The Chairman. You haven't tried so far. You have been a very
uncooperative witness and we do not believe 3Tou are telling us the
truth.
Mr. Nelson. I am sorry. What I told you is the best of my ability.
The Chairman. Why don't you come forward and tell the facts?
Mr. Nelson. I don't know what I can tell you.
Senator Kefauver. Where is the headquarters of the Nowland
Co. ? Does it have an office somewhere ( Where was the office of the
business you got $180,000 from (
Mr. Nelson. Uncle Billy's office?
Senator Keiai \ ia;. Yes, the office.
Mr. Nelson. You are talking about Uncle Billy's, or are you talk-
ing about Nowland ?
Senator Kefauver. I am talking about Nowland.
324 ORGANIZED CRIME TX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Nelson. I don't know where Nowland's office is.
Senator Kefauver. 1 toes he have an office?
Mr. Nelson. I don't know.
Senator Kefauver. How did you get paid this big amount of
nione\ \ Was it paid by check?
Mr. Nelson. Sir?
Senator Kefat \ i k. Did he pay von by check or did he pay you by
cash '.
Mr. Nelson. Check? What check?
Senator Kefat ver. I asked you — the record shows you got $180,000
out of this Xowland and Associates in 4 years. Did he pay you
by cash or did he give you a eheck for your share?
Mr. Nelsox. Cash.
Senator Kefauver. Cash?
Mr. Nelson. What money 1 received from him I got in cash.
Senator Kefauver. Did he come to your house to pay you or did
you go to his house?
Mr. Nelson. He brought it to me.
Senator Kefauver. How often would he bring it to you?
Mr. Nelson. Just whenever it suited him.
Senator Kefauver. ( )nce a week or one a mont h ?
Mr. Nelson. No, sometimes once a year, once every 6 months, he
would bring me a little money.
Senator Kefauver. How much would the amount be that he would
bring to you?
Mr. Nelsox. They would vary.
Senator Kefauver. What would be the biggest amount, we will
say \
Mr. Nelson. The bi^irest amount that I can recall was probably
around $15,000.
Senator Kefauver. And when he brought it to you, what did he
say \
Mr. Nelsox. Told me, "Here is your end."
Senator Kefauver. Here is your half?
Mr. Nelson. Your end.
Senator Kefauver. Did you ask him how he got so much money for
you?
Mr. Nelsox. I was kind of tickled to get the money and not have to
work for it, to tell you the truth.
Seantor Kefauver. What is that?
Mr. Nelsox. I was kind of tickled to get that much money and not
work for it.
Senator Kefauver. He might have been stealing it for all you know,
and you wouldn't want to get stolen property, would you?
Mr. Nelson. Did you say I stole it \
Senator Kefauver. When you discussed with him about how busi-
ness was so good, what would you talk about?
Mi-. Nelson. When I done what?
Senator Kefauver. You ask him, Mr. Ivice.
Mr. Rice. Frankly, I think his attitude is contemptuous. Senator,
and I think he should be at least instructed that the law is to the effect
that if a witness knows the answer to the question he can be cited for
contempt or perjury just the same as if he refuses to answer if he
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 325
knows the answer and says he does not know. Do you understand
that \
Mr. Nelson. You say
Mr. Rice. If you know the answer to the question
Mr. Nelson. Know the answer to the question-
Mr. Rice (continuing). And you say you don't know, it is possible
that you might be cited for contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Nelson. You — I haven't told you — I think this is what you
mean. I haven't told you I didn't know about any question I did
know about.
Mr. Rice. Let's go back into it. What business does the Robert
Nowland Associates engage in?
Mr. Nelson. What business?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. To say I actually know, I couldn't say.
Mr. Rice. I beg your pardon?
Mr. Nelson. For me to actually know, I couldn't say. You asked
me what business Nowland Associates was in, wasn't that it?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. I really don't know.
Mr. Rice. You really don't know?
Mr. Nelson. I couldn't say. because I don't know.
Mr. Rice. You really don't know, is that the answer?
Mr. Nelson. I don't know what business Nowland Associates is in.
Mr. Rice. That is an answer and if you do know, it is possible that
you have perjured yourself.
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. And that you may be cited for contempt. You under-
stand that?
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What did he tell you the business was? What did Now-
land tell you the business was he was getting this money from \
Mr. Nelson. Nowland never told me.
Mr. Rice. Did he tell you he was robbing banks ?
Mr. Nelson. Everybody knows I don't have anything to do with
any robbery.
Mr. Rice. If you don't know what it was, it is possible he could
be robbing banks; isn't it?
Mr. Nelson. It is possible it could have been; yes. I can tell you
what I think it was.
The Chairman. What do you think it was?
Mr. Nelson. I think it was gambling.
The Chairman. Yes. and you have taken about half an hour to
tell what those of us knew and what you could have told us in the first
10 minutes. Why did vou think it was gambling? What made vou
think that ?
Mr. Nelson. Sums of money like — you asked me why I think it
was gambling?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Sums of money like that would have to come from
some source of that kind. It is just not
The Chairman. What else was there about your handling of the
matter with him to make you think it was gambling ? What else be-
sides that?
326 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Nelson. Well, I don't — if there is anything else, I don't know
"what it could have been.
.Mr. Rice. Whal sort of gambling did you think it was?
Mr. Nelson. I had an idea it was the numbers.
Mr. Rice. The numbers. And what were your ideas about where
this numbers game was going on; what area?
Mr. Nelson. What
Mr. Kick. Were they picking numbers up in Washington, Virginia,
Maryland, or where?
Mr. Nelson. I imagine they were Maryland, all Maryland people.
Mr. Rice. All Maryland people?
Mr. Nelson. I imagine.
Mr. Kick. Did you hear some testimony this morning from a man
by the name of Roberts that a fellow by the name of Blight Lee was
working for ( Jharley Nelson picking up numbers in Washington ? Did
you hear that \
Mr. Nelson. A man by the name of Blight Lee is working for
Charley Nelson picking up numbers in Washington— is that what
you asked me?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. You ask me did he?
Mr. Rice. I am asking if you heard that.
Mi. Nelson. You mean. here?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. You heard that. What do you have to say to that ?
Mr. Nelson. Well, sir, I say that it is a lie.
Mr. Rice. It is a good statement.
Mr. Nelson. And that man knows it, and he knows why he sat
here and said that also.
Mr. Rice. Why is that?
Mr. Nelson. I take it that you are a Senator.
Mr. Rice. No : n ot yet.
Mr. Nelson. I hope some day you will be. Let's put it this way :
I take it that you read the newspapers. This is purely and simply a
grudge thing, the whole thing, over a hold-up case that happened over
in Virginia.
Mr. Rice. All right, sir.
Mr. Nelson. Is that what you wanted to know ?
Mr. Rice. I want to know if you know Blight Lee.
Mr. Nelson. I do know Blight Lee.
Mr. Rice. 1 las he ever worked foryou ?
Mr. Nelson. Yes'; I think he did.
Mr. Rice. What doing?
Mr. Ni lson. I think' he helped me around the beach there several
t imes down at I Fncle Billy's.
Mr. Rice. What was he doing down at Uncle Billy's?
Mr. Nik si in. Whal washedoing?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. .lust helping me in general, running wheels and help-
ing me all around the place.
Mr. Kick. Helping with the slot machines and wheels?
Mr. Nelson. Sort of assistant to the manager.
Mr. Kick. Did he ever help you with the numbers?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 327
Mr. Nelson. There is no numbers at Uncle Billy's.
Mr. Rice. Let's talk about everywhere. Did he ever help you any-
where in the numbers, Blight Lee ?
Mr. Nelson. Not to my knowledge. Blight Lee never turned a
number in to me in his life.
Mr. Rice. Let's not talk about turning in. Has he ever had any
connection with the numbers for you ?
Mr. Nelson. Has he ever
Mr. Rice. Has he ever worked for you or assisted you or been as-
sociated with you in any connection with the numbers?
Mr. Nelson. Mr. Lee and I are very close friends.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. He comes to my house and I go to his house occasion-
ally and have dinner.
Mr. Rice. Yes. What does he bring when he comes to your house ?
Mr. Nelson. Well, sir, at Christmastime he brought a cord of oak
wood.
Mr. Rice. Did he ever bring any run-down sheets, any ticker tape,
any adding-machine tape?
Mr. Nelson. Never saw Mr. Lee bring any
Mr. Rice. Bring any money ?
Mr. Nelson. Never had him bring any money.
Mr. Rice. Never brought any money to your house?
Mr. Nelson. No.
Mr. Rice. You are sure about that ?
Mr. Nelson. I am sure about that.
Mr. Rice. Suppose he said differently?
Mr. Nelson. If he says differently
Mr. Rice. He is lying?
Mr. Nelson. I wouldn't say Mr. Lee would lie. He is a very high-
type little fellow.
Mr. Rice. Anything you are shown you will believe ; is that the
idea ?
Mr. Nelson. If I made an error and it develops that lie has brought
me money for something, it is because I don't recall it ; and, if he
has, I will readily admit it and explain it.
Mr. Rice. That is very magnanimous ?
Now, let me read you some figures and see if these sound correct
to you. In some years you make out your taxes jointly with your
wife. Her name is Virginia ; is that right?
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. In the year 1948 you made out a joint return in which
you reported that your share of the Nowland Associates proposition
was $49,936. Does that sound about right?
Mr. Nelson. Forty-nine thousand, you say ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. What was it for?
Mr. Rice. From Robert Nowland Associates, you reported.
Mr. Nelson. I don't know. I urn not as young as I used to be,
and my mind is not as good as it used to be, and I just don't mean
to be this way, but I am in a position where I can't help it. I would
like to tell you, but I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Do you keep any books ?
Mr. Nelson. We keep books for the farm and for Uncle Billv's.
328 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. Who keeps the books for you?
Mr. Nelson. 1 keep the books myself for the farm and Mr. Huey,
the man that we referred to back sometime ago. He audits them
for us.
Mr. Rice. He audits them. Who makes up your tax returns for
y°u • i
Mr. Nelson. I make up my tax returns.
Mr. Rice. You make up your own tax returns?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any help \
Mr. Nelson. Well, 1 don't generally need any, if I get such things
as making up — you said "help," didn't you ? To make up the return,
is that what you want to know?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Such things as depreciation and setting up things
like that. Mr. Huey generally docs that for me.
Mr. Rice. Who takes care of your books for the Robert Nowland
Associates?
Mr. Nelson. I really don't know.
Mr. Rice. How do you check up on your share?
Mr. Nelson. I didn't have any way of checking up. I didn't know
what they were doing.
Mr. Rice. You are having us believe then you are satisfied with
whatever Mr. Nowland turns over to you as your share?
Mr. Nelson. That was what I got. I don't know if that explains
what you want to know or not. Whatever I got
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Nelson, when Mr. Nowland would come
and bring you $5,000 or $15,000, you would have to keep some record
of how much he brought you. Where would you keep that record?
Mr. Nelson. We would just make a note of what we were taking
in. It wTas kept — you want to know how we kept track of it; was that
it?
Senator Kefauver. You made apparently forty-nine-some-odd
thousand dollars in 1948 out of Nowland. Where would you put that
down when he would bring you money?
Mr. Nelson. Just take a book and list what we took in and what the
expenses against it, whatever it was, and then at the end of the year —
it was kept on a cash basis.
Senator Kefauver. Did you keep that book or did he have the book?
Mr. Nelson. Who have what book?
Senator Kefauver. This book you are talking about.
Mr. Nelson. I am talking about what money he give me. I made
a note of it.
Senator Kefauver. You made a note on the book. Where is that
book \
Mr. Nelson. I don't know whether \ still have them or not. I may
have throwed them away. They are kept in separate years. You
asked me where the book was: didn't you?
Senator Kefauver. That is right.
Mr. Nelson. They arc kept in separate years, and I don't know —
I will try to locate them for you. if it will We of any help.
Senator Kefauver. All right. You see if you can lind the 1948 book,
for instance. That would be very helpful.
Mr. Nelson. 1948?
ORGAXIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 329
Senator Kefauver. Yes. That is the year Mr. Rice was asking
yon about.
Mr. Nelson. Sir?
Senator Kefauver. That was the year he was asking you about
when you said yon made $48,000 out of Nowland. That was your
share. Sec if you can find that book; will von?
Mr. Nelson. For 1948?
Senator Kefauver. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. I will.
Senator Kefauver. All right, Mr. Rice.
Mr. Rice. Mr. Nelson, do you know a man by the name of Kent?
Mr. Nelson. Kent?
Mr. Rice. Yes; Mr. Perrin Kent.
Mr. Nelson. Not that I can recall, sir.
Mr. Rice. Not that you can recall?
Mr. Nelson. No.
Mr. Rice. Is Mr. Kent in the room ?
Mr. Kent. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Take a look back there and see if you recognize that man.
Mr. Nelson. The man standing?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. I don't recall ever having seen him in my life.
Mr. Rice. Never saw that man I
Mr. Nelson. I don't recall it.
Mr. Rice. Are you pretty sure about that? Take a good look at
him. Come on up here, Mr. Kent.
Mr. Nelson. I don't ever recall ever having seen this man.
Mr. Rice. You never saw him before?
Mr. Nelson. I don't recall it.
Mr. Rice. Thank vou, Mr. Kent.
Mr. Nelson. Sir?
Mr. Rice. You never saw him before ?
Mr. Nelson. You asked me if I saw him ; if I know him ?
Mr. Rice. If you know him.
Mr. Nelson. I don't recall this man.
Mr. Rice. Don't know him ; don't recall him ?
Mr. Nelson. Don't recall.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever telephone a man by the name of Kent?
Mr. Nelson. Telephone him ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. I don't know the man.
Mr. Rice. Don't know the man I
Mr. Nelson. I don't know the man.
Mr. Rice. All right.
Mr. Nelson. If I do, I don't recall him.
Mr. Rice. When were you served with a subpena by this committee
or bv the United States marshal?
Mr. Nelson. What \
Mr. Rice. When were you served with a subpena by the United
States marshal on behalf of this committee?
Mr. Nelson. To appear over here, 3'ou mean ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Yesterday.
Mr. Rice. What time?
330 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Nelson. I judge it was around 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock.
Mr. Rice. Three or four o'clock in the afternoon?
Mr. Nelson. Might have been a little sooner or might have been a
little later. I didn't look at the watch. I had been down in the
back
Mr. Rice. The return indicates that you were served at 3 o'clock.
Where were you then?
Mr. Nelson. On the farm, working on the farm.
Mr. Rice. You were down on the farm then ?
Mr. Nelson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. All right.
Senator Kefauver. Is there anything else?
Mr. Rice. Do you know a man by the name of Heber McWilliams?
Mr. Nelson. Heber McWilliams?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. ± think I do ; from North Beach, you mean ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. North Beach, Md. ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. I think I know who you are talking about; works
in the navy yard, or did.
Mr. Rice. He works in Uncle Billy's, too; is that right?
Mr. Nelson. He did have a stand there, and I think he sold it this
spring. We rented him a stand. You asked me what he done?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. We rented him a stand, and he done the work there
and had the rowboats and things of that kind, fishing tackle. That
was his job in his spare time, I think, when he wasn't working at the
navy yard. So far as I know, I don't know ; I mean about the navy
yard.
Mr. Rice. Was he ever on your payroll or on the payroll of the
North Beach Amusement Co. or any of your enterprises ?
Mr. Nelson. He could have been.
Mr. Rice. Yes. When was that?
Mr. Nelson. I really wouldn't know. I wouldn't say that he was
and I wouldn't say that he wasn't. He could be. He could be now
for all I know.
Mr. Rice. Yes; that is right. That covers a lot of ground. He
could be now. If he was, what company would he be on? Would it
be the North Beach Amusement Co. or Nowland?
Mr. Nelson. What
Mr. Rice. What payroll is he on? What payroll would he be on?
Mr. Nelson. North Beach Amusement Co.
Mr. Rice. Is he a bartender there?
Mr. Nelson. I have never known him to tend bar.
Mr. Rice. In any event, he may have been on the payroll and may
still be; is that the idea?
Mr. Nelson. He may.
Mr. Rice. He may?
Mr. Nelson. He may.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever telephone him? Did you ever telephone
him?
Mr. Nelson. Heber McWilliams; do 1 phone him?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 331
Mr. Nelson. I haven't that I know of recently.
Mr. Rice. You haven't recently. Have you ever phoned him from
your place here at Ritchie?
Mr. Nelson. I may have. I don't recall.
Mr. Rice. Where would you telephone to him ?
Mr. Nelson. Where would I telephone him?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. I have no occasion to call him.
Mr. Rick. Now, suppose there is a record that you telephoned to
him. Where would you have called him?
Mr. Nelson. I would have had to call him at this home, T suppose.
Mr. Rice. That is the telephone North Beach 4451 ; isn't it (
Mr. Nelson. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Your number is what, Jordan 8-9292?
Mr. Nelson. That is my telephone number.
Mr. Rice. That is your number?
Mr. Nelson. Yes/
Mr. Rice. You pay your bills for that number, and all telephone toll
calls on that are yours; aren't they?
Mr. Nelson. You say I pay the bill at Jordan, telephone bill; is
that what you say \
Mr. Rice. I am asking you.
Mr. Nelson. That is right ; I have got to pay the bills.
Mr. Rice. That is.your telephone?
Mr. Nelson. My telephone is Jordan 8-921)2 ; that is right.
Mr. Rick. Now, in these telephone calls to Heber McWilliams, what
do you talk about \
Mr. Nelson. God above only knows. I wouldn't have any idea
what I talk to him about. I haven't any idea when I called him last.
Mr. Rice. Would you be talking about numbers?
Mr. Nelson. I could have been.
Mr. Rice. You could have been?
Mr. Nelson. But I don't think so.
Mr. Rice. I see where Heber McWillams is calling your place, also
calling Randolph :)707, nonpublished listing for Samuel R. Beard.
7400 Alaska Avenue NW. Do you know him ?
Mr. Nelson. What \
Mr. Rice. Samuel R. Beard.
Mr. Nelson. Samuel Beard?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. I think I know the man you are talking about, not very
well acquainted with him, but I know him.
Mr. 'Rice. Do you have any business transactions with him \
Mr. Nelson. I call him once in a while, and he calls me; yes.
Mr. Rick. What business is he in?
Mr. Nklson. I really couldn't tell you about that, sir. Somebody
told me onetime he was a pickle man or something.
Mr. Rice. When you called Beard or when he called you. do you
talk about pickles?
Mr. Nelson. No.
Mr. Rick. What do you talk about (
Mi'. Nelson. I don't remember what we talked about the last time
we talked.
332 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. Do you talk about gambling?
Mr. \i i -ex. How is thai '.
Mr. Rice. Do yon talk about gambling?
Mr. Nelson. I don't remember discussing any gambling in any
form with Mr. Beard. ] will tell you: Mr. Beard has only been at my
place one i ime.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
r Mr. Nelson. He come there to buy a bull, and I sold him a bull.
That completes our knowing; one another, as far as I am concerned!
Mr. Kui:. You say that is your only business transaction with
Beard, this bull session (
Mr. Nelson. That is the only business transaction I have ever had
with Mr. Beard.
Mr. Rice. Will you tell this committee that you have had no trans-
actions with Heard relating to numbers or gambling?
Mr. Nelson. Let me understand von now.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. What is it you want to know?
Mr. Rice. Will you deny that you have had any transactions with
Beard relal ing to numbers or gambling?
Mr. Nelson. No; I have never had any business with Sam Beard
relating to anything other than this bull that I can recall.
Mr. Rice. That you can recall. But you said awhile ago your
memory wasn't too good : didn't you?
Mr. Nelson. That is right. But I don't know what might pop up.
Let s put it this way: I am certain I have never had any transaction
with Beard in regard to gambling. You are talking about Sam
Beard \
Mr. Rice. Sam Beard.
Mr. Nelson. I have heard of him.
Mr. Rice. All right. How do you account for these telephone
calls >. You weren't talking about the bull all the time.
Mr. Nelson. What telephone calls?
Mr. Rice. Between you and Beard that you told us you made.
Mr. Nelson. I don't know what they were. If I knew what they
were. I would sure try to help you. They certainly weren't pertain-
ing to any gambling.
Mr. Rice. They certainly weren't?
Mr. Nklson. Sir?
Mr. Kick. Have you ever heard of the P & N Amusement Co.?
Mr. Nelson. I sure have.
Mr. Rice. 5806 Central Avenue, Capitol Heights?
Mi'. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Do yon Lave any interest in the P. & X. Amusement Co *
Mr. Nelson. P. & N. Amusement Co. t
Mr. Rice. \\^.
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Whal is that I
Mr- Nelson. That is a little partnership formed between Mr.
1 umphreyand myself; and we placed machines, music boxes, cigarette
machines, consoles, and such like on different locations.
Mr. Rice. Slot machines, did you say ?
Mr. Nelson. No -lot machines. I put up the money for this little
business, and it is in Prince Georges County. There is no slot machine
m Prince Georges County.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 333
Mr. Rice. Where is the headquarters of the P. & X. Amusement Co.?
Mr. Nelson. I think Mr. Pumphrey works right ou1 of his house,
so far us I know. He does all the work. I really don't know.
Mr. Kick. What is 5806 Central Avenue, Capitol Heights \
Mr. Nelson. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Yon don't know what that is?
Mr. Nelson. You say do I know what it is?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. No; I don't.
Mr. Rice. Well, according to the records of the telephone company,
a number of these telephone calls were made to Jordan 8 9789, which
is listed to the P. & X. Amusement Co., 5806 Central Avenue, Capitol
Heights. We understand from the stall investigation that is a pool
hall.
Mr. Nelson. Poolliall?
Mr. Eice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. I don't know.
Mr. Rice. Yon can't understand that ; can you?
Mr. Nelson. It may seem funny to you — and I hate to have it
appear that way — but, believe me, I don't know. I don't know of any
poolroom there.
The Chairman. Mr. Nelson, it doesn't seem funny, but it does seem
very suspicious.
Mr. Nelson'. I agree with you, and I understand.
The Chairman. You are the only one that can clear it up. If you
are in the clear, this committee wants to give you an opportunity to
clear it up, because at this minute it looks very dark and very
suspicious.
Mr. Nelson. I realize that.
The Chairman. And very incriminating.
Mr. Nelson. I realize that.
The Chairman. You are the only one that can clear it up, and now
is your chance, because this is not going to be laughed off with the
committee. We are going to the bottom of it, and we are going to
bring it to the authorities, and those who are guilty are going to be
prosecuted., and if you are one of them you are going to be in it.
If you are not one of them, now is the time to make it clear; and,
so far, you have not made it clear.
We are going to take a recess shortly, and I simply suggest that you
think over carefully and come back when you resume the stand pre-
pared to tell us the truth. Xow is your chance, and it is up to you
entirely. Do you understand what I say?
Mr. Nelson. I get the general drift. You don't feel like I am doing
what I can.
The Chairman. Xo: I do not.
Mr. Nelson. Believe me, 1 have never been in this poolroom that
he mentions that I can remember.
The Chairman. I am talking about the whole picture, what we
understand is a $6 million operation, from which you have received
$180,000. Xow, you are not going to make us believe that you are as
ignorant as you appear to be. Xow. you therefore have the chance
to come back this afternoon and tell us the truth if you want to; and,
85277— 51 — pt. 17 22
334 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
if you don't clear it up, you have nobody to blame but yourself if
you are involved in some prosecution later.
Mr. Nelson. I have told the truth.
The Chairman. Do you understand what I said?
Mr. Nelson. I take it
The Chairman. Do you understand it?
Mr. Nelson. Do you want me to come back this evening; is that
what you want me to do, and talk further?
The Chairman. I want you to think it over during the lunch recess;
think it over
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
The Chairman (continuing). And come back prepared to tell us
the truth, which so far yon have not done.
Mr. Nelson. I beg your pardon, sir. 1 have really tried, and have
told you the truth.
The Chairman. That is my opinion.
Mr. Nelson. I can understand how you may feel that way.
The Chairman. And you haven't cleared the matter up at all so
far. You have the chance.
Mr. Nelson. What did you want to clear up. sir \
The Chairman. This whole matter about the different operations
which run up to considerable amounts, and from which you have got-
ten a lot of money, and which you have benefited from, and yon can-
not make us believe that you don't know what kind of business opera-
tions they were.
.Mr. Nelson. I have told you everything that I
Senator Kefauver. The committee will meet this afternoon in the
committee room of the District of Columbia in the Senate end of the
Capitol.
Do you know where it is, Mr. Nelson ?
Mr. Nelson. I don't get it. I can hear you, but I don't understand.
Senator Kefauver. Mr. Smith will show you. We will stand in
recess until 2 p.m. this afternoon. Mr. Smith will tell you where it is.
You be there at 2 :15.
(Whereupon, at L2 :30 p.m., the committee adjourned, to reconvene
at -i p.m. this same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
Present: Senators O'Conor (chairman), Kefauver (presiding),
and Hunt.
Also present: Richard J. Moser, chief counsel: Downey Rice, asso-
ciate counsel: Wallace Reidt, Nicholas Statins, and Norman Polski,
assistant counsel: and James M. Hepbron, administrative assistant.
Senator Kefauver. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Nelson, will you comeback around, please, sir?
Mr. Nelson, do you want to tell us any more about your transactions
than you have this morning? Have you thought the matter over any
further?
FURTHER TESTIMONY OF CHARLES E. NELSON
Mr. Nelson. The only thing that 1 can think of that I probably
made :i mistake on is that I believe I said I had three race horses in
training. That is incorrect. It is four.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 335
Senator Kefauver. You want to increase the number of race horses
by one ?
About this Nowland partnership, do you want to tell us anything
more about it ?
Mr. Nelson. I would like to tell you anything I could, but I do
not know what 1 can tell you.
Senator Kefauver. Very well, Mr. Rice.
The Chairman. Mr. Nelson, this morning, in making a statement
to you as to what your own returns showed, I stated that they showed
;t gain of $188,000. Do you remember my saying that to you?
Mr. Nelson. I do not remember what the figure was. I remember
your talking about what the return showed.
The Chairman. You do not remember how much you yourself re-
ported ? You do not remember that ?
Mr. Nelson. 1 am not sure about the amount. I remember you said
some amount.
The Chairman. No ; in checking further into it, we find some other
items that now bring the total up to $255,000.
Mr. Nelson. On my return ?
The Chairman. From Nowland, of which you were supposed to
have one-half. In other words, Nowland's return showed that much,
and you were supposed to have an equal share with him. My question
is : Have you no further information as to the nature of those trans-
actions ?
Mr. Nelson. Nothing more than was stated this morning.
The Chairman. Suppose you repeat that for us briefly, and tell
us just what you understood the operation to be.
Mr. Nelson. I furnished a little money for the thing and they
carried it on and they were to give me half, and that is all I could
tell you about it.
The Chairman. You said they carried it on. What do vou mean
by that?
Mr. Nelson. Whatever they were doing. I assumed they were
gambling.
The Chairman. What made you assume that?
Mr. Nelson. It is pretty hard to get money like they turned over
to nie without doing something in the way of gambling.
The Chairman. What kind of gambling did you think they were
engaging in \
Mr. Nelson. I imagined they were engaged in the numbers business.
The Chairman. What made you think it was numbers rather than
-dine other form of gambling?
Mr. Nelson. It could have been another form; I wouldn't know.
The Chairman. Do you mean to say you cannot give us any more
information than that?
Mr. Nelson. Believe me, as much as I would like to. I cannot. I
would love to, if I really knew the facts — I would tell you in a minute.
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Rice.
Mr. Rice. What was your concept of the area covered by the gam-
bling activity from which you were drawing income?
Mr. Nelson. Area \
Mr. Rice. Yes. Where were the people who were doing the gam-
bling? Where would they come from?
336 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Nelson. They were Maryland people. I do not think there was
anybody I ever dealt with in any way, shape, or form, unless there
was some business house in Washington other than Maryland people
I rarely Leave the farm or Uncle Billy's. My time is devoted between
the two places. Anytime of day or night von can find me in one of
the 1 WO plan-.
Mr. Kick. Where?
Mr. Nelson. Uncle Billy's and my farm. With one exception, ex-
cept when J go to sell my horses.
Mr. Rice. I n, ,j ice on the record von have here Robert Nowland and
Associates indicated as being in Alexandria, Ya. What does that
mean \
Mr. Nelson. I do not know. I do not know whether he lives in
Alexandria, Va., or what.
Mr. Kick. This is a record yon made yourself? You said von made
your own tax return out. Yon have here Robert Nowland and As-
sociates. Alexandria, Ya.
Mr. Nelson. Maybe that is his home address.
Mr. Rice. Yon wrote it down. What did von mean by that?
Mr. Nelson That is what I probably meant. As far as I know, he
lives over in Alexandria.
Mr. Rice. So that was the address of the associates- is that it?
Mr. Nelson. No; not to my understanding.
Mr. Rice. Where did the association keep its bank account?
Mr. Nelson. The association never had any bank account that I
ever knew of.
Mr. Rice. All cash business?
M r. Nelson. Cash ? Kept it on a cash basis.
Mr. Rice You had an investment there, you say, of $20,000 or better.
W hat was the reason for putting up the investment ? What did thev
need that money for?
Mr. Nelson. J do not know, unless he needed it to pay some of his
obligations. J
Mr. Rice. Do you want to explain that a little bit?
Mr. Nelson. 1 do not know how I can elaborate on it.
Mr. Rice The man came to you and said, "I want to get into a little
business. 1 need some money." What did he need the money for?
M r. JN ELS( in. 1 o carry on his business.
Mr. Rice. Exactly what did he need it for?
Mr. Nelson. I do not know.
Mr. Rick. What would he need $20,000 for, to get started?
Mr. Nelson. There are a lot of things these days that cost $20,000.
Mr. Kick. Tet s gt»t back to this particular proposition.
Mr. Nelson. 1 really do not know. 1 do not know what he used
the money for. His wronU would have to show that.
Mr. Rice. \\ hat did be tell you he needed the $20,000 for?
Mr. Nelson. He said, if I put up the money, he could make some
money. 1 told him I would let him have it.
Mr. Kick. About what pear was that?
Mr. \klsox. l'.Mo If). ' 1 really do not know what year it was
Mr. Rice. Has it been going on for 10 years?
•Mr. Nelson. No; I wouldn't think so.
Mr. Rice. What is the closest you can get to the start of it ?
Al r. .\ elson. I would say .~> or 6, maybe 7 years.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 337
Mr. Rice. Start back about 1944 ?
Mr. Nelson. Possibly. We could probably get a definite date on
the thing from the tax return.
Mr. Rice. I notice in your 1945 tax return that evidently it was
moving along pretty well. There you had a gain in 1945 from Robert
Nowland and Associates of $55,000. You started out doing that
amount of business.
Mr. X i.i.sox. Apparently we did.
Mr. Rice. That was in the first year. Who else is in Robert Now-
land and Associates?
Mr. Nelson. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Rice. Is your wife in it ?
Mr. Nelson. The wife and I are partners in everything we do, even
in the racing horses.
Mr. Rice. So she is a partner in the associates, too ?
Mr. Nelson. How is that?
Mr. Rice. She is a partner in the Robert Nowland and Associates,
too?
Mr. Nelson. She was never a partner. She and I were partners,
and I was connected with the thing and naturally she came by half
of the profits.
Mr. Rice. You started around .1944-45 ? You think you started
around then? Are you still in the business?
Mr. Nelson. Am I still in business?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. I am in business.
Mr. Rice. In the Robert Nowland and Associates ?
Mr. Nelson. No.
Mr. Rice. What happened to that?
Mr. Nelson. Mr. Nowland just decided to quit, I guess. That is the
best answer I can give you.
Mr. Rice. Tell us about that, What did he tell yon \ Here you have
a rather lucrative operation going, and you are not just going to part
with it on a thing like that.
Mr. Nelson. Just decided to quit; that is all I know.
Mr. Rice. He decided to quit ?
Mr. Nelson. He ran into such a terrible hole; he couldn't get out
and just quit.
Mr. Rice. When did he start running into a hole?
Mr. Nelson. Possibly a couple of years back.
Mr. Rice. We are not interested in possibilities, Mr. Nelson. Just
exactly what happened? You split up with Nowland. You know
that. Tell us about that.
Mr. Nelson. That was not a split-up.
Mr. Rice. You had a misunderstanding with him?
Mr. Nelson. The man just quit.
Senator Kefauver. The acting chairman has been advised that the
matter in which the committee is interested, the contempt citation,
is going to be on the floor very shortly; so the chairman, Senator
O'Conor, and I will have to leave for a short time, and we will desig-
nate Senator Hunt to continue the hearing.
Senator Hunt, will you take over?
(Senator Hunt assumed the chair.)
338 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Hunt. All right, Mr. Rice, you may proceed with the
<|iit'-t ioning.
Mr. Kick. You were about to tell us about the split-up you had with
Nbwland.
Mr. Nelson. There was no split-up.
Mr. Kick. How did you pari company with him?
Mr. Ni.i. son. He said he was quitting.
Mr. Kick. Where did that conversation take place?
Mr. Nelson. 1 believe it was taking place on my farm.
Mr. Rice. He came out to your farm? What did he tell you?
Mr. Nelson. Just told me he was quitting.
Mr. Rice. Just said "I am quitting"?
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Did you have an argument about it ?
Mr. Nelson. No.
Mr. Rice. Sure about that?
Mr. Nelson. So far as I am concerned, T didn't have any argument.
I do not know what somebody else may call an argument.
Mr. Rice. When did that conversation take place?
Mr. Nelson. I really wouldn't begin to know.
Mr. Rice. Was it the last month ?
Mr. Nelson. No; quite awhile back.
Mr. Rice. How long back?
Mr. Nelson. I would put it about 3 months.
Mr. Rice. About 3 months back?
Mr. Nelson. I would roughly put it at that.
Mr. Rice. So that you haven't been engaged in the numbers busi-
ness for the last 3 months?
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. How about your wife?
Mr. Nelson. I never was engaged in it.
Mr. Rice. Not now; not today?
Mr. Nelson. Not today.
Mr. Rice. How about yesterday ?
Mr. Nelson. Yesterday either.
Mr. Rice. How about the day before?
Mr. Nelson. The day before either.
Mr. Rick. How about Mrs. Nelson? You say you are partners in
every t hing.
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Was she engaged in it the day before yesterday?
Mr. Nelson. The day before yesterday?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Not that I know of.
Mr. Rice. You arc partners with her?
Mr. Nelson. I hope so.
Mr. Rick. Was she engaged in the numbers business the day before
3 esterday \
Mr. Nelson. 1 am certain not.
Mr. Rick. You are certain not?
How much money have you received in 1051 from the numbers
business \
Mr. Nii. su\. How much money have I received in 1951 from the
numbers business?
Mr. Rick. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
339
Mr Nelson. I do not know if any. .
Mr Rice How close can yon come? Yon received money because
von sakl up to 3 months ago you were in business. How much have
\Z made "this year? How much has Nowland given you this year?
' Mr. Nelson. T do not have any idea right now
Mr. Rice. What is the closest you can corned Is it !t>o,0<JU \
Mr. Nelson. Possibly.
Mr. Rice. Possibly $10,000?
Mr. Nelson. It could have been.
Mr. Rice. How much was it?
Mr. Nelson. I have to go back to whatever records we keep.
Mr. Rice. You keep records ?
Mr. Nelson. I keep incoming and outgoing money.
Mr Rice. You keep your ins and outs? Is that what you call it?
Mr. Nelson. I guess so. You can call it that, it you like.
Mr. Rice. Where do you keep those ins and outs t
Mr. Nelson. I generally keep them at home.
Mr. Rice. Where do you keep them ?
Mr. Nelson. At home.
Mr. Rice. Is it home now?
Mr. Nelson. Are they at home now?
Mr. Rice. Yes, your records.
Mr. Nelson. Possibly so.
Mr. Rice. Let's get definite about it. Where are the records oi how
much you have taken in this year?
Mr. 'Nelson. I have them at home, whatever records 1 have.
Mr. Rice. What sort of a book do you have them m?
Mr. Nelson. They are in a little red book.
Mr Rice. And if we were to suggest that a staff member might
like to accompany you out to the little red book, can he see that i
Mr. Nelson. It would be all right with me.
Mr. Rice. We may make those arrangements.
Mr. Nelson. All right.
Mr. Rice. Do you keep a bank account?
Mr. Nelson. Do I keep a bank account?
Mr. Rice. Yes. .
Mr. Nelsox. I do banking business. That is pretty hard to keep.
Mr. Rice. Let's not be facetious.
Mr. Nelson. Please, don't take it that I am trying to offend you.
I do business with a bank. If that is what you want to know, and I
have a bank account; yes.
Mr. Rice. Where is your bank account ?
Mr. Nelson. I have a bank account, I have a bank account at Seat
Pleasant. I cover quite a lot of stock and it is not all what you might
like to think it is either. When you say a bank account, you mean my
own personal account \
Mr. Rice. We will start with that one.
Mr. Nelson. My personal account is in Seat Pleasant Bank.
Mr. Rice. Is that your own personal account? Is that in your
own name '.
Mr. Nelsox. In my own name.
Mr. Rice. Is that a checking account?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. About what balance do you have in that account \
340 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. NTelson. I really do not know.
Mr. Kick. How close can you come?
Mr. Nelson. Couple of thousands of dollars.
Mr. Rice. What is your best guess about what you have there?
Senator Hint. Mr. Nelson, if you had to write a check for $2,000
today, would you be overdrawn '.
Mi-. Nelson. 1 might.
Mr. Rice. Do you mean to say that j-ou do not know whether you
would be overdrawn or not if you wrote a check on your account?
Mr. Nelson. That is right. Believe me. 1 can get these figures
for you, but to get them out of my head is awfully hard for me.
Mr. Rice. Where would you get the figures?
Mr. Nelson. If you are really interested in it. suppose we call the
bank.
Mr. Rice. Is that the only way you could find out \
Mr. Nelson. I could go home.
Mr. Rice. You have a check stub?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. That is home, too, with your little red book?
M r. Nelson. The check book is at home.
Mr. Rice. When did you write the last check on that account? '
Mr. Nelson. I think 2 or 3 days ago.
Mr. Rice. What was the balance then?
Mr. Nelson. I didn't notice. You see what happens is that I have
a bookkeeper. She writes all this stuff and hands it to me and I sign
it. I used to be able to work and did much more than I do now. I
cannot work now.
Mr. Rice. Who is your bookkeeper, this woman you are talking
about?
Mr. Nelson. The bookkeeper at the farm?
Mr. Rice. The one you are talking about.
Mr. Nelson. That writes my personal checks?
Mr. Rice. The one you are talking about.
Mr. Nelson. Mrs. Frank Wakeman.
Mr. Rice. Does she work at the farm?
Mr. Nelson. Yes. She is more of a stenographer than she is a
bookkeeper. We get an awful lot of correspondence from interested
people all over the country about stock and, believe me, it is a big
job just to answer it.
Mr. Rice. Does your wife draw checks on this account, too?
Mr. Nelson. On my account?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. No, that is my own personal account.
Mr. Rice. What other accounts do you have?
. Mr. Nelson. Mrs. Nelson and I have a joint account there to-
gei her.
Mr. Rice. Same bank?
Mr. Nelson. At the Seat Pleasant Bank.
Mr. Rick. What is the balance in that account?
Mr. Nelson. 1 really do not know. Ii may be $10,000 or $10,000.
Mr. Kick. Do you have a savings account \
Mr. Nelson. A bank savings account, do you mean?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. No.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 341
Mr. Rice. Do you have any other bank accounts?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What other bank accounts do you have?
Mr. Nelson. We have— wail a minute. I told you $10,000 or $15,000
in that Seat Pleasant Bank. The chances are there are only a couple
of thousand there. We have another joint account down at Owens
Trust Co. and that is probably where we have $10,000 or $15,000. Is
that clear to you?
Mr. Rice. Yes, it is fairly clear. Where is this Owens Trust Co.?
Mr. Nelson. Sir?
Mr. Rick. Where is the Owens Trust Co. located?
Mr. Nelson. The bank?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Owens. In Owens, Md.
Mr. Rice. Owens. Md.?
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. How much do you have in the Seat Pleasant account?
You say you thought it was $10,000 or $15,000 down at Owens?
Mr. Nelson. I would say approximately a couple of thousand. I
do not know. That is at the Seat Pleasant Bank.
Mi-. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. And about $10,000 or $15,000 at the Owens?
Mr. Rice. What other accounts do you have?
Mr. Nelson. Personal accounts?
Mr. Rice. Any type of bank account.
Mr. Nelson. Company accounts included?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. North Beach xVmusement Co., for instance. Are you
interested in that?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. They have an account also at the Owens Bank.
Mr. Rice. Is it possible for you to draw checks on the North Beach
Amusement Co. account?
Mr. Nelson. For me to do it ? Yes ; I guess I could. I never have
done it.
Mr. Rice. Who draws the checks on that ?
Mr. Nelson. There is a bookkeeper for that company by the name
of Mrs. Patrick Brady. She makes up all the checks and signs all
the bills and things like that. When I get around to it, I look them
over and sign them and pay them.
Mr. Rice. Do you think it is possible for you to sign a check on that
account ?
Mr. Nelson. I sign all the checks on that account. Nobody else has
the authority to sign it.
Mr. Rice. Where is Mrs. Brady headquartered?
Mr. Nelson. She is headquartered right at Uncle Billy's.
Mr. Rice. What other accounts do you have? This North Beach
Amusement Co. has an account at Owens Bank. You have one at
Owens Bank. You have an account at Seat Pleasant. What other
accounts do you have?
Mr. Nelson. That covers it.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any accounts in the District of Columbia?
Mr. Nelson. Building associations, but not banks.
Mr. Rice. Where is that?
342 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
.Mr. Nelson. Where is what I
Mr. Rice. The building-association account.
Mr. Nelson. I have one at Eastern.
.Mr. Rice. What do you have in that account, Mr. Nelson?
Mr. Nelson. Really, 1 have to go to the books. I do not know.
Mr. Rick, ('an you come within $5,000?
Mr. Nelson. It is probably around $5,000.
Mr. Rice. All right, what other accounts?
Mr. Nelson. I have an account at the American Building Associa-
tion right up the street from it,
Mr. I J ice. How much do you have there?
Mr. X elson. I think it is around $0,500, $4,000 — something like that.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any other accounts?
Mr. Nelson. Yes, I do, but I cannot think of the names of them.
There is a building association out in Silver Spring — citizens asso-
ciation.
Mr. Rice. How much do you have there ?
Mr. Nelson. Probably around $7,500.
Mr. Rice. Any other accounts ?
M r. X elson. Yes. Then I have one at Thomas Circle. That is the
District Building Association. It is at Fourteenth and M. I think it
is the District Building Association.
Mr. Rice. District Building Association?
Mr. Nelson. Yes. These are all building associations.
Mr. Rice. How much do you have in that one?
Mr. Nelson. Of course, you understand these are just guesses.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Probably $6,000.
Mi'. Rick. Is that all the building association accounts you have?
Mr. Nelson. No. I have one at the Hyattsville.
Mr. Rice. Which one is that out at Hyattsville?
Mr. Nelson. The one on Fourteenth Street is the one I have an
account with, the Hyattsville Building Association.
Mr. Rice. Howt much do you have there?
Mr. Nelson. Probably $24,000 in that association.
Mr. Rice. You have how much?
Mr. Nelson. About $24,000.
Mr. Rice. $24,000 out there?
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Is that all '.
Mr. Nelson. No. I have an account with the Prudential Building
Association.
Mr. Rice. That is where in town here in Washington?
Mr. Nelson. That is on G Street NW., fourteen-hundred-some-
thing.
Mr. Rice. How much do you have there?
Mr. X elson. Probably $7,500. I have to look at the books to be
sure.
Mi-. Rice. Do you have a statement of your assets?
Did yoi i vwv make up a statement of your assets \
Mr. Nelson. I have never done that, l»ut it wouldn't be too much
trouble.
Mr. Rice. All right?
Mr. Nelson. It would take me a little time.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 343
Mr. Rice. How long do you think it would take you?
Mr. Nelson. I would do it just as soon as humanly possible, if you
would like one.
Mr. Rice. "What do you estimate your net worth to be?
Mr. Nelson. Really, I wouldn't have any idea.
Mr. Rice. Approximately.
Mr. Nelson. Probably a couple of hundred thousand dollars.
Mr. Rice. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Nelson. Probably a couple of hundred thousand dollars. I do
not know.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any accounts in banks outside of the District
of Columbia or Maryland, either building and loan or other type of
bank?
Mr. Nelson. Wait a minute, we do. We were down in Florida. We
go down in the wintertime. WTe have a little account in one of the
banks, about $400 or $500.
Mr. Rice. In what town is that?
Mr. Nelson. Coral Gables. I think they call it that.
Mr. Rice. Coral Gables?
Mr. Nelson. It is in Coral Gables. I think it is the Coral Gables
Bank. It is about $400 or $500.
Mr. Rice. That is a checking account ?
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Do you own property in Florida ?
Mr. Nelson. No.
Mr. Rice. What property do you own?
Mr. Nelson. I own the farm.
Mr. Rice. What would you take for the farm ?
Mr. Nelson. What would I take for it ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. With all the hard work I put in that farm, I would hate
to sell it for any price.
Mr. Rice. Would you take $100,000?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Would you take $50,000?
Mr. Nelson. No.
Mr. Rice. $75,000?
Mr. Nelson. Might.
Mr. Rice. $70,000?
Mr. Nelson. I might.
Mr. Rice. $65,000?
Mr. Nelson. I might even do that. It all depends upon the condi-
tions and the time.
Mr. Rice. I am kind of interested in knowing what you would take
for it.
Mr. Nelson. I do not know. I figure things pretty close. The
longer you get to know me, you would know I would rather give you a
direct answer, just exactly to the penny, what this is, than to give you
the guesses. I do not know how much money I have in the farm.
Mr. Rice. Wxhat other property* do you own?
Mr. Nelson. On the farm?
Mr. Rice. Anywhere.
Mr. Nelson. I have that stock in the North Beach Amusement Co.
Mr. Rice. We know about that.
344 ORGANIZED CRIME LN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
What other real property — buildings or land — do you own?
Mr. Nelson. Real estate?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. I own a house out in Riverdale.
Mr. RrcE. Whose house is that?
Mr. Nelson. Whose?
Mr. Rice. Who lives in it?
Mr. Nelson. The night watchman who works for me, a fellow by
the name of Rice.
Mr. Rice. What does he watch for you?
Mr. Nelson. He watches the stock on the farm at night, the brood
mares, and things like that, when they are having their young. He
calls for lie]]).
Mr. Rice. That is a house in Riverdale?
Mi-. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What other real property do you have?
Mr. Nelsox. I have a house in Hvattsville.
Mr. Rice. Who lives in that?
Mr. Nelson. It is rented. I do not know.
Mr. Rice. Do you know the address of it?
Mr. Nelson. No, but I can get it for you.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever live in it (
Mr. Nelson. No. I never lived in it.
Mr. Rice. How did you happen to acquire that house?
Mr. Nelson.' Speculation. Just bought it. I thought it was a cheap
house and bought it.
Mr. Rice. Do yon own any other property? You do not know
where that is? Do you know what street it is on?
Mr. Nelson. I can tell you how to get there, but I cannot tell you the
number of the street. You go to Hvattsville, through Hvattsville and
when yon get to the Riverdale traffic light, you turn to the left and go
as far as yon can. It is the last house on the left by the Carrier farm.
Mr. Rice. Yon do not know the name of the street ?
Mr. Nelson. I do not know. They changed the name of that street.
Mi'. Rice. Is it Nicholson Street?
Mr. Nelsox. No.
.Mr. Rice. In the 3800 block?
Mr. Nelson. I do not know. They changed the numbers and they
change the stuff around so often and so much, that I do not know.
Mr. Rice. You do not'know?
Mi'. Nelson. No.
Mr. Rick. It is in your name?
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. Any other houses or property \
Mr. Nelson. Yes, I have a house in Parkland.
Mr. Rice. Where is that?
Mr. NELSON. That is over in District Heights, right off Marlboro
Heights. A little subdivision known as Parkland.
Mr. Rice. You have an apartment there, you say?
Mr. Nelson. No. a house.
Mr. Rick. That is rented?
Mr. \i i so\. That i- rented.
Mr. Rice. That is speculation property there, too?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 345
Mr. Nelson. No, we lived in this house. "While it was bought as
speculation property, we lived in that house while we were building the
house on the farm.
Mr. Rice. Any other property?
Mr. Nelson. I have a house on Twelfth Street in Fort Myer.
Mr. Rice. Over in Virginia?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Do you know the number?
Mr. Nelson. Right near Fort Myer. I do not know the number of
the house.
Mr. Rice. Who lives in it?
Mr. Nelson. I believe the boy's name is Joe Morrison.
Mr. Rice. Joe Morrison \
Mr. Nelson. I think that is who it is.
Mr. Rice. What business is he in ?
Mr. Nelson. He is a milk truck driver.
Mr. Rice. He is on Twelfth Street ?
Mr. Nelson. In Fort Myer; that is right.
Mr. Rice. Any other houses or property?
Mr. Nelson. Yes. I have one in Alexandria. That is just about
the same thing. It used to be 530 Taylor Street.
Mr. Rice. Did you say Perry Street ?
Mr. Nelson. The house?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Taylor Street.
Mr. Rice. Who lives in that house ?
Mr. Nelson. Mr. Ryan, a real estate agent, collects the rent for these
houses for me.
Mr. Rice. Where is he located ?
Mr. Nelson. Up on Fourteenth Street.
Mr. Rice. What is his first name?
Mr. Nelson. N. E. Ryan.
Mr Rice. He handles your property?
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. So he would have a complete list of all your properties in
this area?
Mr. Nelson. He has a complete list of all the properties I rent.
Mr. Rice. Does he handle your Virginia properties?
Mr. Nelson. All of them. He collects the rents and forwards them
to me.
Mr. Rice. Do you own any properties outside of the District of
Columbia, Maryland, and Virginia?
Mr. Nelson." No.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any stocks and bonds, stocks or bonds?
Mr. Nelson. I have about $20,000 worth of Government bonds.
Really. I have $10,000, and Mrs. Nelson has $10,000. I was put-
ting them together.
Mr. Rice. Where do you keep those?
Mr. Nelson. We keep them at home.
Mr. Rice. Whereabouts?
Mr. Nelson. We keep them in a safe at the office.
Mr. Rice. You have a safe at home \
Mr. Nelson. Yes. sir.
Mr. Rice. What else do vou have in the safe besides bonds?
346 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Nelson. There is a little bit of everything in there, sir.
Mr. Rice. Any cash in there?
Mr. Nelson. There mighl be a little, got to have a little cash money
around.
Mr. Rice. 1I<>w much would you say you had there?
Mr. Nelson. 1 do not know; possibly a thousand dollars.
Mr, Rice. Possibly what?
Mr. Nelson. Maybe$l,000.
Mr. Rice. Maybe more?
Mr. Nelson. I doubt it.
Air. Kick. What else do you have there? Any other stocks or bonds '.
Mr. Nelson. I have $2,000 worth of stocks in the development
company in Seat Pleasant.
Air. Rice. What is the name of that?
Mr. Nelson. It is with the Seat Pleasant Bank. I do not recall
what the name of it is.
Mr. Rice. Any other stocks?
Mr. Nelson. No; not that I can think of.
Mr. Rice. That is all the stock you can think of that you have?
Mr. Nelson. I think so. Stock in the company. You said you
knew about that.
Mr. Rice. Any oil stock or gold-mine stock?
Mr. Nelson. Oil? I wish I did have. I do not have any gold mine.
Mr. Rice. How about bonds ? Do you have any bonds?
Mr. Nelson. Didn't you ask me about the bonds \ The Government
bonds.
Mr. Rice. Any other bonds?
Mr. Nelson. No.
Mr. Rice. Do you own an automobile?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What sort of an automobile do you have?
Mr. Nelson. Chrysler, 1947-48.
Mr. Rice. Do you have just one car?
Mr. Nelson. That is all that belongs to me.
Mr. Rice. Does your wife have one?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rue. What does she have?
Mr. Nelson. A Chrysler station wagon.
Mr. Rice. What year?
Mr. Nelson. I think it is a '40 or a '50. It was bought right close
to the time when the year changed, when they changed the model,
and I am not sure.
Mr. Rice. Yon said this morning that you had some interest in the
P. £ X. Amusement Co. with a«man by the name of Pumphrey.
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Which Pumphrey is that?
Mr. NELSON. I do not think yon people have the right man at all.
This is .lames Pumphrey. lie is a refrigeration man. lie handles
music boxes, cigarette machines, consoles, such as pin ball, and the
like, through Seat Pleasant. When you talked about a pool room,
I do not get t hat at all.
Mr. Rice. Where does James Pumphrey live?
Mr. Xklsox. lie lives in Seat Pleasant."
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 347
Mr. Rice. Do you know where in Seat Pleasant '.
Mr. X li s( in. No ; I do not.
Mr. Rice. Have you been receiving money from the P. & X. Amuse-
ment Co. ?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Kick. Approximately how much did you receive from P. & N.
last year ?
Mr. Nelson. I would say somewhere between $1,500 and $4,000,
something like that. I do not remember.
Mr. Rice. When was the P. & X. Amusement Co. formed?
Mr. Nelson. That was a little thing that got started when this
Pumphre}' had been doing a little work down at Uncle Billy's for us.
He and I went fishing together.
Mr. Rice. What sort of work had he been doing at Uncle Billy's
for you ?
Mr. Nelson. Pie still takes care of the refrigeration work, all the
refrigeration work at the place — quite a lot of it.
Mr. Rice. When did the company get started, the P. & N. Amuse-
ment Co. ? Five years ago ?
Mr. Xelson. I do not think it was that long. It has probably been
there Sy2 to 4 years at the most.
Mr. Rice. Started making money right away?
Mr. Nelson. Well, we took in some money; but, the way I figured,
we have never been able to make any money.
Mr, Rice. You said you drew about $1,500 last year ?
Mr. Nelson. Nevertheless, we have some investment in that partic-
ular enterprise.
Mr. Rice. You have some what ?
Mr. Nelson. We have some investment there.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Machines and such like.
Mr. Rice. But you took $1,600 out.
Mr. Nelson. But that was before we charged out any depreciation
or anything. The way I figured it, we made very little money, if
anything, on that enterprise.
Mr. Rice. Who keeps the books of that enterprise ?
Mi-. Xelsox. Mr. Pumphrey was responsible for it. The only way
1 entered into the thing was that he did the entire amount of work
and brought me my part of the money.
Mr. Rice. You backed him, in other words?
Mr. Nelson. I put up the money to buy the equipment.
Mr. Rice. How much did you put up ?
Mr. Nelson. I do not know, probably $10,000. I really do not
know.
Mr. Rice. You do not know whether it was 4 or ."> years ago?
Mr. Nelsox. I do not think it was that long, that far back.
Mr. Rice. How long ago was it?
Mr. Nelson. I would say it was around 3% years.
Mr. Rice. How many slot machines does the company have?
Mr. Nelson. My company \
Mr. Rice. P.&N.
Mr. Nelson. I do not know of any slot machines that they have.
Mr. Rice. How many slot machines do they have ?
Mr. Nelson. What is that?
348 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. How many slot machines does P. & N. Lave?
Mr. Nelson. You are talking about playing slot machines?
Mr. Rick. Any kind— consoles.
Mr. Nelson. You are talking about everything?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Probably 60.
Mr. Kick. Arc those the console type?
Mr. Nelson. All different kinds, music boxes.
Mr. Rice. Instruments of all kinds?
Mr. Nelson. Shuffle alley.
Mr. Rice. How about the race-horse type, the one-armed bandits?
Mr. Nelson. We do not have one-armed bandits.
Mr. Rick. You have some console-type slot machines?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rick. I low many of those do you have?
Mr. Nelson. Thirty, forty; maybe fifty or sixty. I would have to
get you a record.
Mr. Rick. AY here do you have those placed ?
Mr. Nelson. They are all through Maryland.
Mr. Rice. Do you have any in your home ?
Mr. Nelson. No. In quite a few locations in Maryland.
Mr. Rice. Are they all in public places ?
Mr. Nelson. All in public places, with the exception that Mr. Ptini-
phrey may have stored some in his cellar.
Mr. Rice. I noticed in your record you have a Charles E. Nelson
Associates. What business is that in ?
Mr. Nelson. That was set up and designed when we had the part-
nership, so that for income-tax purposes Mrs. Nelson and I would be
partners in Charles E. Nelson Associates. That took care of the farm
and any other act ivities that we may have had.
Mr. Rice. That took care of the farm?
Mr. Nelson. Other than the company. In other words, the com-
pany was one account and Charles E. Nelson Associates was our
account. Let's put it that way.
Mr. Rice. By company men you mean the Nowland?
Mr. Nelson. I do not have any control over Nowland or that com-
pany.
Mr. Rice. When you say that is our account and the other is the
company, what do you mean by the "company"?
Mi-. Nelson. I am talking about the North Bsach Amusement Co.
M r. Rice. So that you have only two set-ups. Yrou have the Charles
E. Nelson, which is the farm, and the other is the North Beach Amuse-
ment?
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mi-. Rice. And you do not consider Nowland as part of either one?
Mr. Nelson, [have no control over Nowland.
Mr. Rick. But you have about a quarter of a million dollars in 4
years coming from t hat. You do not consider that any business at all?
Mr. Nelson. 1 didn't have control over it while 1 did get the money.
That money shows on these income-tax ret urns. I do not handle it.
Mr. Rick. What would you say your main business is?
Mr. \i i SON. My main business?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. Probably my main business is farming.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 349
Mr. Rice. Is that your main business?
Mr. Nelson. It will be shortly.
Mr. Rice. You do not mean on a State farm, do you ?
Mr. Nelson. If that is the case, I will just have to put up with it.
Can I make myself clear with this young man ?
Mr. Rice. I wanted to pursue this phase for just a minute. You
say your main business is a farm and you run it under the name of
Charles E. Nelson Associates?
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. I will review your records here a little bit. Let's see
about this main business here. In 1945 you showe< 1 a loss on Charles
E. Nelson Associates, which is your main business, of $23,000 in round
figure. In 1946 you show a loss of $21,000. The same vear your wife
showed a loss of the same thing of $21,000. That is $42,000 that you
lost on your main business.
In 1946 you showed a loss of $19,000 and your wife showed a loss
of $19,000. That is $38,000 you lost that year. In 1948 you and your
wife lost $49,000 on your main business.
Mr. Nelson. That is correct. I guess you would like me to ex-
plain those losses. The best way I can explain it to you is to ask you
if you ever tried to raise any thoroughbred livestock and, if so, you
will understand. If there is anybody around that has, they would
understand.
In 15 years you are just getting started in that kind of business.
Mr. Rice. But in one year, on the other hand, you had a gain of
$55,000 from Now] and. but that is not your main business. The same
year you lost $23,000 on the farm.
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. It didn't take you long to get started in that.
Mr. Nelson. Long to get started?
Mr. Rice. Are you still losing money on the farm?
Mr. Nelson. God, I hope not. Believe me, I hope not.
Mr. Rice. What is the answer?
Mr. Nelson. I have racked my brain for the answer to that ques-
tion.
Mr. Rice. You mean you do not know whether you are losing or
not?
Mr. Nelson. I do not know.
Mr. Rice. You do not know ?
Mr. Nelson. I do not know how we will come out. I raise this
stuff to sell it at auction sales. I just came back from an auction sale.
Before I went, I was certain we were over the hump. They really took
the starch out of me down there.
Mr. Rice. These race horses that you have, are they considered part
of the farm?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Do you lose money on them, too ?
Mr. Nelson. Sometimes we do. This year I do not think we will,
but I only have these horses because I was caught with them and
could not help myself. It is better to have them at the race track
and get something out of them than have them laying around.
Mr. Rice. How does one go about getting "caught" with a race
horse?
85277— 51— pt. 17 23
350 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Nelson. Sometimes we have one that people just won't buy.
Mr. Rice. Just grew like Topsy? Where did you get the horses in
the first place ? You bought them ; didn't you ?
Mr. Nelson. I raised these horses. Every horse that I have at the
race track I have bred and raised.
Mr. Rice. Where did you get the parents of these horses?
Mr. Nelson. The parents?
Mr. Rice. We won't go back into which came first, the egg or the
chicken. Where did the horses come from in the first place?
Mr. Nelson. The original stallion I got from Mr. Hale Price Hill-
yard in Lexington.
Mr. Rice. And you paid him for it?
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. You got into the business voluntarily ?
Mr. Nelson. Voluntarily?
Mr. Rice. Yes ; you did not get caught with anything.
Mr. Nelson. I bought that horse intentionally, hoping to be able to
make some money off him.
Mr. Rice. As a matter of fact, you have lost money every year and
charged that off as an operating expense.
Mr. Nelson. I will admit that does look awfully bad. While it
does look bad, it is not as bad as it may look. A lot of this young stock,
if I raise it, is still there on the farm, and if you put it up and sold it
it would be a different picture.
Mr. Rice. It certainly does look like something that might merit
the attention of a Senate committee. You have a 4-year loss on a
farm, including race horses, which to me might seem to be a hobby,
of $181,000, which you charge off as an expense against a gain of
$255,000 for numbers operations, showing a net of $74,000. That is
all you paid taxes on.
Mr. Nelson. If you people feel like it is a hobby, I will put those
horses up and sell them as soon as I can get ready. I am getting tired
of it.
Mr. Rice. We are not suggesting anything about your business, Mr.
Nelson, but it does appear that a consistent loss of that type, charge-
able against the Government, in effect means you are running the
horses with Government funds.
Mr. Nelson. It has been most annoying to me. I wouldn't have be-
lieved it could have been as bad as it is. It worried me an awful lot.
Mr. Rice. I noticed you had some other expenses which you charged
off from time to time, of contributions. For instance, there is a con-
tribution to the Police Boys' Club at Hyattsville. Do you remem-
ber making a contribution of that type?
Mr. Nelson. They were probably made by check, if we made any
contributions.
Mr. Rice. Who was the policeman who solicited you on that?
Mr. Nelson. Really I do not know. I do not have the faintest
idea.
Mr. Rice. You wouldn't be able to remember?
Mr. Nelson. No.
Mr. Rice. Do you know any officers on the police force of Prince
Georges County?
Mr. N elsi ) v. There are so many new ones now that I doubt if I know
any of them to speak of.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 351
Mr. Rice. Do you know any in the past or do you know any on the
force at this time at all?
Mr. Nelsox. I know of them. I am not acquainted with them.
Mr. Rice. Do you have a speaking acquaintance with any of them?
Mr. Nelson. Did I ever speak to any of them?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Xelsox. If I met them, I spoke to them.
Mr. Rice. Whom can yon call by name?
Mr. Xelsox. Yes ; I could call them by name.
Mr. Rice. Whom could you call by name?
Mr. Nelsox. Leeds Humphrey.
Mr. Rice. How about Officer Pnrdy?
Mr. Nelsox. I know Purdy ; yes.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever have any transactions with Purdy ?
Mr. Xelsox. Xo.
Mr. Rice. Sure about that?
Mr. Xelsox. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Have you had any business with him at all ?
Mr. Xelsox. Xot that I know of.
Mr. Rice. How did you come to know him ?
Mr. Xelsox. I lived out there for 15 to 18 years and we had a
bonding business, used to bond people and get them out of jail. I came
in contact with the policemen out there. Xo longer than a year or
two ago I spent a lot of time getting things straightened out.
Mr. Rice. What is the name of your bonding business?
Mr. Xelsox. Xelson & Main.
Mr. Rice. Nelson & Main ?
Mr. Nelsox. That is right. I think that is what it was. That is
a thing that has since been closed up and done away with, recently.
Mr. Rice. Why was that?
Mr. Nelsox. Just too much work; to much work, principally be-
cause too much work.
Mr. Rice. Were you doing the work?
Mr. Nelsox. Wound up where I had some of it to do in the end.
Mr. Rice. Who was Main?
Mr. Xelsox. Mr. Irvin Main. He is a man who runs a little grocery
store over in Seat Pleasant. We had a man by the name of Mr. Wake-
man who was supposed to do the work, and he got sick. Mr. Main
was sick. I was sick. I wound up with that work and I had to
straighten it out.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever been arrested?
Mr. Xelsox. When I was a young man. during the prohibition days.
I think I was arrested with a keg of whisky or something.
Mr. Rice. Where was that?
Mr. Xelsox. Really I do not know where it wa's.
Mr. Rice. Was it in Maryland?
Mr. Xelsox. Xo; we were living in the District at the time.
Mr. Rice. Did you pay a fine ?
Mr. Xelsox. I really do not remember.
Mr. Rice. You didn't go to jail ?
Mr. Nelsox. No; I have never been in jail.
Mr. Rice. You do not know whether von went to jail or not?
Mr. Nelsox. What?
Mr. Rice. You say you do not know whether you went to jail?
352 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Nelson. I never went to jail. I might have been in the station
house overnight or something. I do not think I have really been in
the station house overnight, but I have been in the station house for
speeding, or things like that, or have sat there and waited for some-
body to got collateral for me.
Mr. Rice. Have }-ou had any other arrests or served time for any
crime?
Mr. Nelson. Never served time.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever been arrested for the numbers business?
Mr. Nelson. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Have you ever been before a grand jury?
Mr. Nelson. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Never been called upon to testify about the numbers
business?
Mr. Nelson. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. How do you account for the fact that you have been
able to receive so much income from the numbers business over an
extended period of years without any interference by law enforce-
ment people ?
Mr. Nelson. I stay on my farm all the time or at Uncle Billy's.
I guess the officers just felt there was never any reason to bother me
at the farm or Uncle Billy's, as I wasn't doing anything.
Mr. Rice. Did you ever pay anyone for police protection?
Mr. Nelson. No, sir ; I do not pay anybody anything.
Mr. Rice. You are sure about that?
Mr. Nelson. I am positive.
Mr. Rice. Never paid a police officer anything?
Mr. Nelson. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Make any gifts ?
Mr. Nelson. Yes. At Christmas time we very often fix bags and
put a turkey in it. We not only give it to policemen, we give it to
a lot of people who we think are worthy.
Mr. Rice. Do you give policemen a turkey at Christmas?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What ones do you take care of?
Mr. Nelson. No particular ones.
Mr. Rice. Have you sent any to Mr. Purdy?
Mr. Nelson. Possibly did. That is the only form of a gift that
I can recall.
Mr. Moser. Mr. Nelson, I want to ask you some questions about
the Nowland set-up. Is that called Nowland & Associates?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Moser. When you put up that $20,000 he asked you for, did
you have any written agreement with him ?
Mr. Nelson. No.
Mr. Moser. No agreement at all ?
Mr. Nelson. Never been a written agreement.
Mr. Moser. Did you give him the money in cash?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Moser. What denominations?
Mr. Nelson. I do not know.
Mr. Moser. Did you accept any promissory note from him?
Mr. Nelson. No.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 353
Mr. Moser Did you have any other evidence to prove von put
up the $20,000?
Mr. Nelson. Xo.
Mr. Mosek. So thai he just asked you for $20,000 and you gave it
to him without any evidence that you had done so; is thai righl \
Mr. Nelson. I wouldn't say that it was $20,000, whatever the figure
was, which we exchange from t bne to time. I just gave it to him with-
out any security.
Mr. Moser. You mean von do not know how much you gave him?
You testified before it was $20,000.
Mr. Nelson. I said it could have been.
Mr. MOSER. It could have been '.
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Moser. Did you give him different amounts from time to time?
Mr. Nelson. We exchanged money from time to time.
Mr. Moser. You exchanged money '.
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Moser. You mean he gave you money and you gave him money?
Mr. Nelson. He gave me what was coming to me and if he needed
a few thousand I would let him have it.
Mr. Moser. Do 3^011 make it a common practice, when somebody
comes and asks you for $20,000, to just give it to him and not ask him
what it is for?
Mr. Nelson. No; I do not as a general thing. I worked with this
man some 30 years ago, and I felt I knew him well enough so that I
could trust him with anything. I still think I can.
Mr. Mosek. Did you purposely not ask him what it was for?
Mr. Nelson. I guess you could put it that way.
Mr. Moser. You suspected it was for something like gambling, but
you did not want to ask him?
Mr. Nelson. I didn't care.
Mr. Moser. Didn't he say something to make you think you should
not ask what it was for?
Mr. Nelson. I don't recall anything that he said.
Mr. Moser. Why didn't you ask him what it was for \
Mr. Nelson. You ask whether I asked him wdiat it was for?
Mr. Moser. Why didn't you ask him?
Mr. Nelson. I do not know. I just didn't want to.
Mr. Moser. Isirt it a rather strange form of doing business to hand
a man money and not know what he is going to do with it?
Mr. Nelson. Not if you know what you were doing. It will be a,
long time before I do it again.
Mr. Moser. Did you know what you were doing?
Mr. Nelson. I didn't, or I wouldn't know about it.
Mr. Moser. Were 3-011 surprised when the first year you got $55,000
back on your investment of $20,000 ?
Mr. Nelson. I guess I was.
Mr. Moser. The next year you got an even larger amount. That was
another pleasant surprise?
Mr. Nelson. It was very nice to make money.
Mr. Moser. Didn't you anticipate when you gave him the $20,000>
that you would get these amounts?
Mr. Nelson. No; I never dreamed of it.
Mr. Moser. What did you anticipate getting back?
85277— 51— pt. 17 24
354 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Nelson. I didn't have any idea. How could I?
Mr. Moser. Why couldn't you tell? You do not give $20,000 to
somebody without having some idea as to what you are going to get
back for it, do you?
Mr. Nelson. There is no way of telling what you are going to do in
business.
Mr. Moser. 1 1 seems quite obvious to me that you must have known
somthing about how you were going to get the money back or you
v ouldn't have given it to him and you must have known he was going
to use it for gambling ; isn't that true ?
Mr. Nelson. No.
Mb. Moser. You knew it was something like that, didn't you?
Mr. Nelson. I could think what I wanted to, but I didn't know it.
Mr. Moser. Did }rou purposely refrain from asking him so you
wouldn't know?
Mr. Nelson. I wouldn't say I purposely didn't ask. I just didn't
ask questions.
Mr. Moser. It seems peculiar to me that you did not ask when you
put up that much money an}7 questions. Did you ask him any ques-
tions when you got $50,000 back the first year?
Mr. Nelson. I don't think so.
Mr. Moser. You said that surprised you. You didn't ask him what
that was about?
Mr. Nelson. I didn't say anything at all. I didn't really realize
we had that much money until we figured it up. I got it in dribbles.
Mr. Moser. That is all I have.
Senator Hunt. Mr. Nelson, do you make out your own income-tax
returns ?
Mr. Nelson. Yes, sir. I make up my own income-tax returns.
Senator Hunt. Give us some idea of your background in accounting,
your education.
Mr. Nelson. My education? Gentlemen, you won't believe this, I
know. I came out of a little knowledge box up in northern Maryland.
I graduated out of the fourth grade.
Senator Hunt. You make out your own income-tax returns?
Mr. Nelson. Yes, sir.
Senator Hunt. You don't have any help from anybody?
Mr. Nelson. I have the depreciation sheets made up on the houses,
stock, horses and farm, and tilings like that, and I take it from there.
Senator Hunt. Who does it for you?
Mr. Nelson. Mr. Huey.
Senator Hunt. Is he a certified public accountant?
Mr. Nelson. He is. Mr. Huey also docs the company's work.
Senator Hunt. And he makes up your income-tax returns, then,
from the information that you file with him ?
Mr. Nelson. He gives me all that stuff. He gives me all that in-
formation. I finish it up.
Senator Hunt. Where does he ^\ the information \
Mr. Nelson. He gets it off the farm's books and off the company's
books, kept by the bookkeeper.
Senator Hunt. Have you ever had an examination of your accounts
by the Internal Revenue Department?
Mr. Nelson. Each year — not each year, they wait a couple of
years — t hey examined my books every couple of years at a time.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 355
Senator Hunt. They come out to your place to do that \
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Senator Hunt. When were they out the last lime?
Mr. Nelson. Probably a couple of years ago.
Senator Hunt. Do you remember the name of the gentleman from
the Department who was out?
Mr. Nelson. No; I do not.
Senator Hunt. Do you know a gentleman maned Kent, K-e-n-t?
Mr. Nelson. I am supposed to call him. Is he a revenue man?
This Kent?
Senator Hunt. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. I do not know him, but he is talking with me now in
regard to going over — I believe he said 1947 and L948.
Senator Hunt. When did those negotiations start? When did he
call you or you call him?
Mr. Nelson. He called me just the day I think I was getting ready
to go to Kentucky to sell my horses.
Senator Hunt. Was that a week ago or a month ago ?
Mr. Nelson. That was I guess about the w22d or 23d.
Senator Hunt. Have you been in touch with him on the telephone
today?
Mr. Nelson. No. sir; I haven't.
Senator Hunt. Yesterday \
Mr. Nelson. Yes, sir; I was.
Senator Hunt. What did you talk about ?
Mr. Nelson. I do not recall what he talked about.
Senator Hunt. Oh, yes; you know what the conversation was.
Mr. Nelson. We didn't talk about anything; only I told him that
I was back home.
Senator Hunt. What else did you talk about?
Mr. Nelson. There were two calls. I called in the morning and
I didn't talk to Mr. Kent. I do not know who it was I talked to.
I told him I was back home and that I would be glad to get together
with him at any time that he wanted to after that afternoon. Then
in the afternoon Mr. Kent called me. I think I am right on this.
I told him that I had received this summons to appear over here in
the meantime, this morning, and I guess we had to postpone out busi-
ness if he planned to do it that morning. He said, "You call me," or
something to that effect.
Senator Hunt. Then you have an engagement pending with him ?
Mr. Nelson. I am supposed to call Mr. Kent.
Mr. Rice. When you called him yesterday morning where did you
get the name and number of call ?
Mr. Nelson. I previously called. He called and left the number
for me to call, or something.
Mr. Rice. What was it?
Mr. Nelson. WTiat was what?
Mr. Rice. Did he call and leave the name for you ? What was the
message ? What caused you to call him yesterday ?
Mr. Nelson. Mr. Kent called and asked me to call. He had called
and asked to examine the records and they told him I was in the
process of selling my yearlings and as soon as I got back I would give
him a ring.
Mr. Rice. This was some time ago that he called about that \
356 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Nelson. On the 22d. I think it was.
Mr. Rice. On the 22d of what?
Mr. Nelson. The 22d of July.
Mr. Rice. Did he leave his name?
Mr. Nelson- . Yes.
Mr. Rice. Was that the first time you had ever heard his name?
Mr. Nelson. The first time I had ever heard it?
Mr. Rice. Was it?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. You never had seen the man '.
Mr. Nelson. I do not think so. He said thai he had been there
before, but I do not remember.
Mr. RlCE. When did la- say that \
Mr. Nelson. He told me over the telephone; 1 think it was yester-
,1:l-v-
Mr. Rice. Are yon sure he didn't tell yon at lunch time today?
Mr. Nelson. \ am positive nobody talked to me at lunch time today.
I haven't talked to anybody.
M r. Rice. When he said he had been there, whom did he tell that to?
Mr. Nelson. I believe he told me yesterday he had been there once
before. 1 do not remember the man at all.
Mr. Kick. Let's go back over this now. On the 2-2(1 did he talk to
you then when he called?
Mr.NELSON. No. He didn't talk tome then.
Mr. Rice. Whom did he talk to?
Mr. Nelson. He must have talked either to the bookkeeper or Mrs.
Nelson.
Mr. Rice. What is the bookkeeper's name?
Mr. Xii, sex. Mrs. Wakeman.
Mr. Rice. Who gave yon the message?
Mr. Nelson. Mrs. Nelson.
Mr. Rice. What did she say the message was ?
Mr. Nelson. She said Mr. Kent wanted to go over some income-tax
returns when it was convenient for me.
Mr. Rice. Did she hand yon his name and telephone number?
Mr. Nelson. She gave me a little piece of scratch paper with the
name and telephone number.
Mr. Rice. With the extension?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What did you do?
Mr. Nelson. What do you mean?
Mr. Rice. Call him back?
Mr. Nelsox. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What did von talk about, then?
Mr. Nelson. What did I talk about?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Nelson. I explained to yon that I called him yesterday morning.
Mr. Rick. Let's go back to this time on the 22d when you called.
Mr. Nelsox. 1 didn't call on the 22d.
Mr. Rice. Did .you jnst go away and leave him?
Mr. Nelson. (Jo away and leave him?
Mr. Rice. You had this message that said Mr. Kent wanted you to
srei in touch with him.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 357
Mr. Nelson. I may have been none. I do not know. I am not sure.
I may have already gone to Kentucky :m< 1 got the note when I came
hack. I think it was the day I was getting ready to go and whoever
talked to him told him t hat I was none or going or somel hing.
Mr. Rice. They told Mr. Kent that yon were going? Somebody
told him that? And you just went '. Von had no contact with him
on the -l'l<\'. Somebody else did?
Mr. Nelson. I did not talk to Mr. Kent on the 22d.
Mr. Kick. Von didn't tell him yon were going to Kentucky?
Mr. Nelson. No.
Mr. Rice. How do yon know he knew yon were going \
Mr. Nelson. I do not know that. Maybe I shouldn't have made
that statement. That was the understanding when 1 got home, that
1 had been in Kentucky and 1 would call him when I came home.
Mr. Rice. When did yon come home?
Mr. Nelson. Saturday evening.
Mr. Rice. And you had a message there to call Mr. Kent \
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What did you do next \
Mr. Nelson. I intended to call him Monday. I did not know that
there was so much to do when I got home. I just did not get cleaned
up at all. Tuesday I hunted for the telephone message all day and
I couldn't find it. Wednesday morning I found it and called him.
Mr. Rice. That is yesterday '.
Mr. Nelson. Ves
Mr. Rice. You called him in the morning? You called him down
at the Treasury Department \
Mr. Nelson. I think it was in the morning. It must have been
around — I do not know what time it was. I am sure it must have been
before 12 o'clock.
Mr. Rice. What did you say and what did he say?
Mr. Nelson. I didn't talk to him. I told whoever answered the
phone that I was back and would get together with him any time
it was convenient for him.
Mr. Rice. Then what happened \
Mr. Nelson. Then he called me.
Mr. Rice. About what time?
Mr. Nelson. I imagine around 3 or 4 o'clock; somewhere around
there.
Mr. Kick. Was it after you had the subpena or before?
Mr. Nelson. After I had the subpena.
Mr. Rice. He called you back at the farm?
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. What did he say at that time?
Mr. Nelson. He told me who he was. *
Mr. Rice. Who did he tell you he was \
Mr. Nelson. He said he was Mr. Kent.
Mr. Rick. What else?
Mr. Nelson. He said that he had gotten my message, as well as I
can remember, and then I told him that 1 was sorry that I had to
inconvenience him so badly, but I just could not help it. He said
nothing. I didn't say any more other than that we would have to
postpone it until after I finished with you gentlemen over here.
358 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Rice. You have never seen the man in person ?
Mr. Nelson. I do not ever recall having seen the man. He says
he has been down there.
Mr. Rice. When did he tell you that"?
Mr. Nelson. He told me that yesterday when I was talking on the
telephone. He said he had been down there 3 or 4 years ago.
Mr. Rice. He said he knew you?
Mr. Nelson. No. But he said he had been down there. I cannot
place the man nor remember ever having seen him.
Mr. Rice. Did you have a conversation with him today?
Mr. Nelson. None whatever.
Mr. Rice. Are you positive about that?
Mr. Nelson. I am positive about that.
Mr. Rice. What did he say he did when he came down there?
Mr. Nelson. He didn't say.
Mr. Rice. Did he say lie knew you or talked with you ?
Mr. Nelson. He didn't say. I believe he did say he had met me and
he said something about the horses. I do not know. I told him what
our average was in Kentucky for the horses we just sold.
Mr. Rice. What your average was?
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Mr. Rice. When did you tell him that?
Mr. Nelson. He and I got to discussing horses.
Mr. Rice. Over the telephone yesterday?
Mr. Nelson. He asked me what kind of luck I had at the sale. I
said, "You can call it good or bad, whatever you like."
Mr. Rice. Do you remember testifying this morning that you did
not know anybody by the name of Kent; never telephoned anybody by
the name of Kent?
Mr. Nelson. It came to me when )Tou talked about the revenue man.
I still do not know the man.
Mr. Rice. You had two telephone conversations yesterday, one to
try to locate a man by the name of Kent, and one a later conversation
in which you were asked how you made out, and you still did not
know the name of Kent when you were asked about it this morning?
Mr. Nelson. I still do not know Mr. Kent.
Mr. Rice. Is your memory getting better now ?
Mr. Nelson. I am getting awfully tired. I will try to help you
with anything I can.
Mr. Rice. I thought maybe you could tell us a little more about
this numbers business you got into with Mr. Nowland.
Mr. Nelson. I do not think 1 can help you any further with that.
I wish I could.
Mr. Rice. Has your recollection gotten any better, Mr. Nelson, about
Blight Lee?
Mr. Nelson. I told you that I knew Mr. Lee.
Mr. Rice. You said, I think, he visited you on the farm.
Mr. Nelson. He does. He does with his wife and children.
Mr. Rice. The question was whether you had any transactions with
Blight Lee relating to the numbers business.
.Mr. Nelson. I never had any transact ions with Lee.
Mr. Rice. You are absolutely certain of that \
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 359
Mr. Rice. Did Blight Lee have any connection with Nowland As-
sociates ?
Mr. Nelson. I do not know.
Mr. Rick. What was he doing? What business was he transacting
with you ?
Mr. Nelson. Who?
Mr. Rice. Blight Lee?
Mr. Nelson. I bought a cord of oak for the fireplace, fireplace wood,
from him at Christmas. I did not have any oak there on the farm.
We wanted some for Christinas. I got a cord of oak.
Mr. Rice. How did you happen to know him ?
Mr. Nelson. I do not know how I came to meet the Lee family any
more. It has been a number of years back. I think it was through
an old friend of mine by the name of Mr. Knott who lived over there
close to him.
Mr. Rice. What business is Blight Lee in ?
Mr. Nelson. I think he is raising a few chickens and running a
little farm down the road over there.
Mr. Rice. The only transaction you have had and which you want
this committee to understand you have had with Blight Lee was in
relation to a cord of wood you bought from him ?
Mr. Nelson. That is right.
Senator Hunt. Mr. Nelson, we will have a staff member accompany
you out to your home and if you will turn over to him your account
book, the little red book you spoke of, he will see that you get a re-
ceipt for it and the committee will return it to you at the very earliest
date, so as not to inconvenience you any.
You are now excused, Mr. Nelson.
Mr. Nelson. I am afraid I do not understand what it is you want
me to do.
Senator Hunt. Well, we will have a member of the staff — you tell
me if you are not hearing — go with you out to your home and you turn
over to him a statement of your net worth together with your little
account book that you spoke of as the little red book, where you keep
yours "ins" and "outs," as you said. In addition to that, the subpena
that you are now testifying under will hold until such time as the
committee releases the subpena.
Now, is there anything you do not understand ?
Mr. Nelson. You expect me to send a statement of the net worth
back tonight \
Senator Hunt. Not necessarily, but we would like it just as soon
as you can have it prepared. We do want, however, the little red book
you spoke of, your "ins" and "outs."
That is all, Mr. Nelson.
Mr. Rice. Is Mr. Kent here ?
I think for the record. Senator, we might indicate that we are in-
terested in talking to Mr. Kent and also Blight Lee and Mr. Now-
land, and we have made efforts to notify all of those individuals.
Senator Hunt. Is Mr. John William Lewis in the room, please \
Mr. Lewis, do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to
give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
360 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
STATEMENT OF JOHN WILLIAM LEWIS, WASHINGTON, D. C.
Mr. Lewis. I do.
Senator Hint. Will you give us your complete name?
Mr. Lewis. John William Lewis.
Senator Hunt. May Ave have your address?
Mr. Lewis. 2204 Fortieth Place NW., Washington, D. C.
Senator Hunt. May we have your occupation '.
Mr. Lewis. I work in the Electrical Inspection Department in the
District government.
Mr. Rick. Do you know of a man by the name of Blight Lee?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, I do.
Mr. Rice. Do you know him personally?
Mr. Lewis. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. Rice. But you know of him I Do you know him when you see
him?
Mr. Lewis. Yes. I do.
Mr. Rice. On what occasions have you seen Blight Lee?
Mr. Lewis. I have seen Lee on numerous occasions from a dis-
tance. Last year Blight Lee made the statement, which I knew to
be a falsehood, from the witness stand.
Mr. Rice. Just try to confine your testimony to the questions that
are asked you, Mr. Lewis.
Mr. Lewis. All right.
Mr. Rice. Do you know a man by the name Nelson \
Mr. Lewis. No, sir. 1 never saw Charley Nelson before today.
Mr. Rice. How about Mrs. Nelson?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What is her name?
Mr. Lewis. I know her as Madge.
Mr. Rice. So far as you know she is the wife of Charles Nelson?
Mr. Lewis. Charles Nelson.
Mr. Rice. You say you work at the District Building?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. There came a time when you became interested in a num-
bers operation ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. As an observer more or less?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Tell the Senator about that story. What has happened?
.Mr. Lewis. Last March T employed a private detective by the name
of Perry Bonner. I le is licensed in Washington, D. C. I wanted him
to observe (lie activities of Blight Lee because I was almost positive
that Blight Lee was in the numbers business.
Senator Hunt. Did you do that in an official capacity?
Mi-. Lewis. No, sir.
Senator Hi \ r. In a private capacity?
Mr. Lewis. In a private capacity.
Mr. Bonner traced Blight Lee to l<;i 1 Montello Avenue.
Mr. Rice. Can you tell us what you have seen and heard rather
than give us his report \
Mr. Lewis. Mr. Bonner told me that Blight Lee went fco 10U Mon-
tello Avenue and he look me there to observe the fact that that was
true. Mr. Lee came there in a truck and there was a truck that went
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 3G1
into the place, 1G14 Montello Avenue, and two or three other white
men went in there.
Mr. Rick. Was that a house, a dwelling?
Mr. Lewis. Residence.
Mr. Rice. Colored people live in there?
Mr. Lewis. That is right, colored people.
Mr. Kick. What else did you do?
Mr. Lewis. Then I decided to watch Blight Lee myself, as he had
moved from 2700 June Street to 7226 Livingston Road, in Oxon Hill,
Md. I took my car and watched him.
Mr. Bice. What period of time are you talking about?
Mr. Lewis. April of 1951.
He would leave his house at various times in the morning and when
he would get on the main road the man would go from 40 to 50 miles
out down to 10 miles an hour. It became a physical impossibility for
me to follow him.
Mr. Rice. What was he driving?
Mr. Lewis. A Studebaker truck.
Mr. Rice. He had been alone?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. Go ahead.
Mr. Lewis. So I had gotten some address after I found out I
couldn't follow him on the road. I would lose him every time. I
decided to watch him from the various place, numbers places that
people had told me about. So I went out on Twenty-first Street NE.,
watched there.
Mr. Rice. Do you know the address out there?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rice. What is that?
Mr. Lewis. Around 12 :30 in the day I saw Blight Lee's truck parked
there. He went into 432, or the house on either side. 432 Twenty-third
Street NE. He would come out and then get into the Benning Road
traffic and I would lose him again. I couldn't follow the man. I de-
cided on another course of action that I would start from the top
down. So by asking a number of people, I was told that if I would
go to North Beach and find out who Madge Nelson was, she would
lead me to the house.
Mr. Rice. She would lead you to the what?
Mr. Lewis. The number joint. So I did that. I found out who she
was and I started to watch the farm.
Mr. Rice. Where did you go to in North Beach?
Mr. Lewis. To Uncle Billy's. This was the first time I ever saw
this lady.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Lewis. Then I decided to watch the farm, to find out what
transactions went on there.
Mr. Rice. You are speaking now of the Nelson farm?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, the Nelson farm located at Ritchie. Md. So I took
my car and I would park it at various places so that I could see just
what was going on there, and I got to learn the routine of the whole
outfit.
Approximately 2 o'clock in the afternoon two young girls would
come up in an automobile with District dealers' tags.
Mr. Rice. Do you know the license number ?
362 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Lewis. No, I never could get the number, but I do know that a
different car, different tags, practically all the time. It was just a
physical impossibility to get that close to them.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Lewis. But like I got behind them one day, a car number
517-696
Mr. Rice. Maryland?
Mr. Lewis. Maryland Ford, followed the girls directly into the
farm. So I observed that. That became a daily routine, and ■
Mr. Rice. About what time would that happen?
Mr. Lewis. About 2 o'clock in the afternoon. Then, of course, you
would have to take these people a little at a time, because they are
very cagey. So I would move down the road a little bit and I would
catch them going past a particular spot on Largo Road. I had heard
they were going to North Beach, but I didn't know for a certainty.
Then I took them down a little bit further. Eventually until I got
them down to Uncle Billy's.
Mr. Rice. AYho was in the car going down to Uncle Bilhy's?
Mr. Lewis. Madge Nelson and two young ladies came in this car.
Mr. Rice. What car would they go from the farm to Uncle Billy's
in?
Mr. Lewis. Ninety percent of the time they would use car 575-813.
I never have been able to determine who owns those cars because
I have never been able to find a list of the Maryland cars.
Mr. Rice. This was a different car from the one they arrived at the
farm in?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, the girls came in a car, a beaten-up automobile.
Mr. Rice. What make car was the last one?
Mr. Lewis. A black Plymouth.
Mr. Rice. You don't know whose that is ?
Mr. Lewis. No.
Mr. Rice. They would take that from the farm and go to Uncle
Billy's?
Mr. Lewis. Yes. When they got to Uncle Billy's, I observed them
parking in a particular location every day.
Mr. Rice. Where was that?
Mr. Lewis. That was in the lot on Uncle Billy's. Madge and these
two girls would get out of the car, they would go into Uncle Billy's,
and I guess that would be around :; o'clock roughly, regular as clock-
work. That Madge and the two girls, and they were joined there by
another girl and the bartender. The bartender now would drive the
car Qumber 575 813, with Madge and the three girls, around to a place
called the Ranch House.
Mr. Rice. Called the Ranch House?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Do you know the bartender's name?
Mr. Lewis. No, I don't.
Mr. Rice. Do you know whether it is McWilliams ?
Mr. Lewis. No.
Mr. Rice. You wouldn't know it if you heard it?
Mi-. Lewis. No, sir.
Mr. Rice. Do you know the identity of any of the girls?
Mr. Lewis. No, sir.
Mr. Rick. Don't know their names?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 363
Mr. Lewis. I know them if I see them. I have no way to get this
information.
Mr. Rice. I understand. The party of the three -iris and Madge
Nelson and the bartender would gel in another car.
Mr. Lewis. They would gel in 575-813 and they would drive Madge
and the three girls around to the Ranch House.
Mr. Rice. What is the Ranch House?
Mr. Lewis. It appears to be a sort of lodging house, maybe, a cheap
summer resort place.
Mr. Rice. At North Beach?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, off the main road.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Lewis. Well, after following that far naturally I got to know
the routine, so from then on in I would pass North Beach until I
determined beyond a question of a doubt, satisfied in my mind that was
where they were taking the numbers, the Ranch House.
Mr. Rice. What would they do when they left the car at the Ranch
House ? Would they take anything out of the ca r \
Mr. Lewis. One time. I was always under the impression that
everybody was watching me and knew that I was watching them,
but apparently they weren't. I never got within a block and a half of
this place, but one time I did see a box go out about this square, a white
box.
Mr. Rice. That came out of the car \
Mr. Lewis. Back of this car 575-813, yes, sir. After Madge and the
girls went into the Ranch House the bartender would routinely bring
the car back and park it at Uncle Billy's lot. That threw me off for
quite a wmile. Then after a number of times I got to know what
number time was. It varies different days. The bartender would
drive this car back to the Ranch House, and another car would follow
up, 700-848, bring him back to Uncle Billy's and Madge and the two
girls that came with her from the farm would drive back directly to
the farm. The other girl apparently stayed in the Ranch House.
Mr. Rice. The}7 reversed their field.
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Go back to the farm. Then what would happen?
Mr. Lewis. It was pretty late, you see, and I never did follow them
any farther than that. I never did follow the girls to their home be-
cause I tried to find out the numbers of the tags. I did get a number
at one time that I thought w^as it, but apparently it wasn't, because
this dealer tag proposition is a very serious thing. It is impossible.
You run into a blank wall every time in trying to find out who has
that partcular car.
Mr. Rice. You became convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt
in your mind that this was a numbers operation under which numbers
were being picked up in the District, taken to the farm and down
to Uncle Billy's and to the Ranch House for settling up and then
the people went back ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Rick. What did you do with the information? Did you go to
the police?
Mr. Lewis. Went to see Captain Davidson of the Maryland State
Police, and he referred me to the county authorities at Marlboro.
Mr. Rice. What county ?
364 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Lewis. Prince Georges County authorities.
Mr. Rice. You mean the chief of police \
Mr. Lewis. Yes, some authority there.
Mr. Rice. A.bou1 when was this that you went to the police?
Mr. Lewis. This was about 3 years or so ago. He asked me to write
him out a written report in detail.
Mr. Rice. Whom did you sec there?
Mr. Lewis. The chief.
Mr. Rick. Do you know his name?
Mr. Lewis. Where <lo you mean, sir. up at Pikesville?
Mr. Rice. The chief at Marlboro.
Mr. Lewis. Chief Richards.
Mr. Rice. He is the one you talked with?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir. First I talked to a detective by the name of
Bond, and lie took me to the chief, and we had a big pow-wow over
what was actually going to be done, that they knew this man here,
Charles Nelson operated, was one of the biggest operators in the
East.
Mr. Rice. Who said that?
Mr. Lewis. Bond said it. The chief said it.
Mr. Rice. Yes.
Mr. Lewis. Chief Richards and Bond, both of them. They said
thai they know this man to be in the numbers, Charles Nelson, and
Madge Nelson.
Mr. Rice. Then what happened ?
Mr. Lewis. Well, then I gave them what information I had and
thought naturally they would try to develop it further. I gave them
the numbers of the car, 517-696, 575-813, and 549-938.
Mr. Rice. Did you help them along? Did you" go out with them
and point out the places?
Mr. Lewis. Yes; I did. I tried to do everything I possibly could.
Went with the detectives.
Mr. Rick. Who did you go out with?
Mr. Lewis. I went to Detective Bond at first, and I was so anxious
to convince anyone in authority that these people were violating the
laws of the State of Maryland that I took Bond down to North Beach
and told him — we got down there plenty early, and I said, "She will
park her automobile there; they will get out of the car and go into
Uncle Billy's and around to the Ranch House."
She came down that day that Mr. Bond went to the beach in 575813,
with three girls; business probably had picked up. She parks the
car on Uncle Billy's lot and went through the same routine.
We followed them around to the Ranch House. So I asked him.
I said. "Now are you convinced?" lb1 said "Yes"; they had been
working on this case for a period of 6 months, that they knew con-
siderable about this outfit.
After that we came back and he told the chief what I said was t rue.
Mr. Rice. Were you there when he told him that?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, oh, yes. And that they were going to lay plans
to apprehend these people. They were going to stop t hem somewhere
on the road and all of this stuff. From time to time I would drop
down and call t hem up at various times and say. "Whal action are you
taking on these people?" They would say, "We are watching them."
Mr. Rice. You say they had you write ou1 a complaint at one time?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 365
Mr. Lewis. The chief of detectives at Pikesville asked me to write
liini in detail a report .
Mr. Rice. Did the Prince Georges County police ask you to swear
to a warrant or anything like that \
Mi-. Lewis. That w;is the opinion at one time; that T would swear
to the warrant. I told them, ii' I am t here and. yon know, have invest i-
gated the case like I have, and knowing what I do about it. naturally
I would, because 1 know just exactly what those people do. So, it
conies a time where Mr. Perrigo, who is a detective at Marlboro —
Mr. Rice. Prince Georges County police?
Mr. Lewis. Yes. He and Mr. Bond lay in the woods where I had
lain numbers of times to verify this information of in t he farm and out
of the farm proposition. So. they came hack with the same story,
said "Oh, yes ; 2 o'clock the girls go in.*' and a few minutes later 517696
follows it. I said, "Now. are you firmly convinced beyond a question
of doubt?" And they said, "Oh. no question. We know that. That
is true."
So, the day before yesterday they were supposed to make an arrest.
Mr. Rice. Before making an arrest, did they have anything t<> do
with getting a warrant out, a search warrant \ Were you there? Did
you help?
Mr. Lewis. No; I wasn't. I was there the day before, and there
was quite a discussion as to whether or not they had the legal authority
to do this and that, and I told them
Mr. Rice. Who were the discussers?
Mr. Lewis. That is the chief and Purely and Perrigo and Bond.
I told them, I said, "Well, you have observed these things, and so do
you think that you have reasonable grounds to suspicion these people ?"
And they said, "Oh, there is no question about it ; we know they are in
the numbers business. Charley Nelson is one of the biggest men in
the East."
As I have told you before, the chief said that, and so did Mr. Bond.
Well, that day, I mean — this is, today is Thursday — Tuesday, rather,
I didn't go out until late to Marlboro, but I had that morning gotten
up at 7 o'clock to watch this car 517696 because they had told me where
these people lived ; the name is Waitman.
Mr. Rice. What is the name ?
Mr. Lewis. Waitman. Mr. Nelson mentioned them several times.
They work on the farm ; work in the numbers ; they work everywhere.
So this car moved about a quarter after 9 in the morning, this car
took a roundabout way to the farm. Now. the normal way a person
would go to the farm is, I guess, 3 or 4 miles shorter than this, because
on this route to the farm you have to go past a road that is deserted,
but I followed her anyway to the farm, directly into the farm. This
is in the morning, see. When you are on a case like that, naturally
you have to make it all, apparently, it looks to me as though you do.
Mr. Rice. Bring us up to any warrant being issued, if you know
about it, a search warrant.
Mr. Lewis. A warrant was issued.
Mr. Rice. They told you they had a warrant?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Rice. That was for what; what day?
Mr. Lewis. That was for Wednesday ; today is Thursday ?
Mr. Rice. Yes.
366 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Lewis. Thai was for Tuesday.
Mr. Rice. That was Tuesday?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Rice. What happened Tuesday?
Mr. Lewis. Apparantly they missed them.
Mr. Rice. What did happen? What did you see?
Mr. Lewis. Now Tuesday I didn't see anything of the farm be-
cause
Mr. Rice. They told you they had a warrant to search Tuesday?
M r. Lewis. They were going to watch the farm and catch everybody.
I stayed away because I didn't wanl to take a chance on fouling the
thing up, because I was positive Madge Nelson knew I was on her.
So. I go down to see the chief after number time, 3 o'clock.
Mr. Rice. Tuesday?
Mr. Lewis. Tuesday, and in comes the detective, and "Nothing
happened today."
Mr. Rice. Which detective?
Mr. Lewis. Mr. Perrigo. He says, "Nothing happened today." And
so I just said. "I will bet you my life that the car is at the beach." And,
of course, they said, "Impossible."'
Mr. Rice. Did they say they had watched the place and hadn't seen
anything happen ?
Mr. Lewis. No; nothing happened. So, I take Mr. Bond down to
the beach and I said, "There is the car; isn't it? 575813."
And he said, "It is there."
I said, "Now you know where she is."
He says, "Yes." So, somehow or other
Mr. Rice. How do you account for them having missed the car?
Mr. Lewis. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Rice. They didn't give you an explanation?
Mr. Lewis. No. Maybe they got there too late or something. There
is a million excuses to miss it. But the fact remains that the car was
at the beach Tuesday. Mr. Bond saw it there and I saw it there. In
fact, I took my car right next to it and stopped because I wanted him
to make sure. We come back and tell the chief; and, of course, he was
all upset and excited about it. He says, "But tomorrow is the day."
Mr. Rice. That is yesterday ?
Mr. Leavis. That is yesterday. So, in order to make sure that they
wouldn't miss them yesterday, my brother and I
Mr. Rice. What is your brother's name?
Mr. Lewis. Joseph.
Mr. Rice. Joseph Lewis?
Mr. Lewis. Joseph Gregory Lewis. We went down to Marlboro at
II o'clock in the morning. We sat around a while, and at 12 o'clock
we all go to our places on t he road. We covered two out of three. You
see, there is a possibility of missing one place.
Mr. Rice. Were you with the officers then?
Mi. Lewis. 1 was with Mr. Bond yesterday. My brother was with
Mr. Purdy, I know that.
Now. Madge Xelson always came out of the Largo Road, runs into
a place called Kearney's Garage. It is a dead end. and here is the
highway going down to North Beach. You could set your clock by
the fact thai she caiiae pasi from 20 to 25 minutes past 2 every day;
no question about it. She did it. But yesterday she comes by at 10
minutes to 3, and I had been up there telling Mr. Bond, I said, "This
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
367
thing is hopeless. You will never catch any people today; not this
late."
So, she came by at 10 minutes to :'>. and they stopped the ear. They
opened the hack of the ear. and she had chickens in the hack and she
had spinach and beets and various vegetables, but I will tell yon what
they were going to do. They were going down to North Beach
Mr. Rice. Anything she didn't have in the car?
Mr. Lewis. Didn't have any numbers, oh, no. But they were going
down to North Beach to brew .a number stew.
Mr. Rice. Let us not go into that. Then I take it the officers
searched the car and they found no numbers yesterday.
Mr. Lewis. That is right. That was ,~>-t(.)938 she came down in yes-
t erday .
Mr. Rice. What car is that I
Mr. Lewis. That is a green Chrysler. I don't know who owns it.
That car has been used occasionally, like I say. They use 575813
better than 90 percent of the time.
Mr. Rice. The girls weren't with her this time?
Mr. Lewis. Oh, yes.
Mr. Rice. The girls were with her ?
Mr. Lewis. Oh, yes ; three girls.
Mr. Rice. Did the officers have the girls identified?
Mr. Lewis. Xo; they didn't get the names of the girls.
Mr. Rice. Were you there when they were talking?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Rice. Do you feel there was a tip-off ?
Mr. Lewtis. Well, I am just here to give you what I actually saw.
Personally, I feel that some way or other somebody must have known
something because of the time element involved. You see. Madge as
regular as clockwork got at the beach between 3 and 10 after 3 ; never
later than that. Yesterday she stopped on the road at 10 minutes
to 3, a spot where she is normally in at
Mr. Rice. In your normal observations had there been any chickens
or vegetables carried down there ?
Mr. Lewis. Not that I had ever noticed ; no, sir.
Mr. Rice. I have no further questions.
Senator Hunt. Thank you. The committee hearing for today is
adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 4: 10 o'clock, the committee adjourned.)
Government of the District of Columbia
metropolitan police department
Record, as indicated by the records of arrest, of Charles Edward Nelson
Date of arrest
Offense
Complainant
Officer
Pre-
cinct
Disposition
Nov. 9,1917
Apr. 27.1923
Do
Cruelty to animals
Illegal possession
J. E. Thomas _.
( leorge Fowler
0. T. Davis
Leo Murray.
do
O. J. Letterman
J. R. Leach
Nails
Bauer
McQuade.
Murn\
do..
Coj
Wanamaker-
Mansfield
Elliott
U. K. Klotz.
10
2
2
9
9
1
1
1
9
9
Elected to forfeit $5.
No papers.
June 17,1924
Do
July 18,1928
Aug. 4. 1930
Transporting whisky
Illegal possession..
Possession
Transporting liquor
$100 or 91) days.
Do.
Nolle.
Do.
Do
do
Suspended sentence,
i yei r probation.
Dismissed.
Forfeited $5.
Jan. 17.1933
Feb. 12, 1936
Invest igal ion
Disorderly
C. I). Cunningham
J. K. Cooke
Note.— At time of arrest in 1930, Nelson gave the address of 1240 Oates St. NE., Washington, D. C.
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