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Given By
U.S. Congress. House
Pt. I
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
HEARINGS
BEFORE A
SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE
COMMITTEE ON
INTERSTATE AND EOREIGN COMMERCE
HOUSE or REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-SIXTH CONGKESS
FIRST SESSION
OCTOBER 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, AND 12, 1959
PART 1
Printed for the use of the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce
'. \ ^-
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
HEARINGS
BEFORE A
SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE
COMMITTEE ON
INTERSTATE AND FOREIGN COMMERCE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIYES
EIGHTY-SIXTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
OCTOBER G, 7, S, 9, 10, AND 12, 1959
PART 1
Priutecl for the use of the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
52294 WASHINGTON : 1960
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I
COMMITTEE ON INTERSTATE AND FOREIGN COMMERCE
OREN HARRIS, Arkansas, Chairman
JOHN BELL WILLIAMS, Mississippi
PETER F. MACK, Jr., Illinois
KENNETH A. ROBERTS, Alabama
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri
HARLEY O. STAGGERS, West Virginia
WALTER ROGERS, Texas
SAMUEL N. FRIEDEL, Maryland
JOHN J. FLYNT, Jr., Georgia
TORBERT H. MACDONALD, Massachusetts
GEORGE M. RHODES, Pennsylvania
JOHN JARMAN, Oklahoma
LEO W. O'BRIEN, New York
JOHN E. MOSS, California
JOHN D. DINGELL, Michigan
JOE M. KILGORE, Texas
PAUL G. ROGERS, Florida
ROBERT W. HEMPHILL, South Carolina
DAN ROSTENKOWSKI, Illinois
LAWRENCE BROCK, Nebraska
JAMES C. HEALEY, New York
W. E. Williamson, Clerk
Kenneth J. Painter, Assistant Clerk
^. <:^7,
JOHN B. BENNETT, Michigan
WILLIAM L. SPRINGER, Illinois
ALVIN R. BUSH, Pennsylvania
PAUL F. SCHENCK, Ohio
STEVEN B. DEROUNIAN, New York
J. ARTHUR YOUNGER, California
WILLIAM II. AVERY, Kansas
HAROLD R. COLLIER, Illinois
MILTON W. GLENN, New Jersey
SAMUEL L. DEVINE, Ohio
ANCHER NELSEN, Minnesota
HASTINGS KEITH, Massachusetts
Andrew Stevenson
Kurt Borchardt
Professional Staff
Sam G. Spal
Martin W. Cunningham
Speoial Subcommittee on Legislative Oversight
OREN HARRIS, Arkansas, Chairman
PETER F. MACK, Jr., Illinois
WALTER ROGERS, Texas
JOHN J. FLYNT, Jr., Georgia
JOHN E. MOSS, California
JOHN B. BENNETT, Michigan
WILLIAM L. SPRINGER, Illinois
STEVEN B. DEROUNIAN, New York
SAMUEL L. DEVINE, Ohio
Robert W. Lishman, Chief Counsel
Beverly M. Coleman, Principal Attorney Hur.ii M. Hall, Jr., Research Specialist
Julius Eanet, Attorney Raymond W. Martin Jr., Special Assistant
Olp'ER Eastland, Attorney Stuart C. Ros.s, Consultant
Charles P. Howze, Jr., Attorney Edward M. Jone.«, Investigator
Mary Louise Ramsey, Attorney James P. Kelly, Iwestigator
Richard N. Goodwin, Special Consultant Harold Ranstad, Investigator
Herman Clay Beasley, Chief Clerk
MINORITY STAFF
Jack Marshall Stark, Minority Counsel
V
CONTENTS
Page
Rules of procedure, Special Subcommittee on Legislative Oversight 2
Testimony of —
Babcock, Harrv A., Executive Director, Federal Trade Commission. 546, 580
Brody, Dr. Nathan 44
Connolly, Charles J., legal adviser. Radio and TV Advertising,
Federal Trade Commission 546, 580
Cowgill, Harold G., Chief, Broadcast Bureau, Federal Communica-
tions Commission 463
Davis, Alfred 93
Doerfer, John C, Chairman, Federal Communications Commission. _ 463
Dowd, Martin 304
Enright, Daniel, accompanied by Charles Murphy, counsel. _ 244,448,576
Ervin, Thomas E., vice president and general attorney. National
Broadcasting Co 184
Falke, Kirsten 336
Felsher, Howard Davis, accompanied bv Charles Fisher, attornev- 404, 415,
458
Fischer, Sy 344, 349
Fisher, Thomas K., vice president and general attorney, CBS televi-
sion network 433
Fitzgerald, John L., General Coimsel, Federal Communications Com-
mission 463
Franklin, Arthur 133
Freedman, Albert, accompanied by Charles Murphy, counsel 210, 459
Hilgemeier, Edward, Jr 285
Hill, Sherman R., director. Bureau of Investigation, Federal Trade
Commission 546, 580
Hillman, Antoinette DuBarry 278
Huschle, David 263
Jackman, Richard 116, 119
Janofsky , Richard 45
Jurist, Edward 313, 379
Kintner, P^arl W., Chairman, Federal Trade Commission 546,580
Kitzing, Irene Falke 342
Klett er, Edward 1 55
Leibbrand , Rose 111
Lieber, Eric 347
McAleer, Frank C, Assistant to General Counsel, Federal Trade
Commission 546, 580
McCauley, Daniel J., Jr., General Counsel, Federal Trade Com-
mission 546, 580
Moore, Charles R., legal adviser to Bureau of Investigation, Federal
Trade Commission 546, 580
Pinkham, Richard A. R 385
Snodgrass, James 59
Stempel, Herbert 14, 46
Additional information submitted for the record —
Federal Communications Commission:
Correspondence with —
Columbia Broadcasting System 465-477
National Broadcasting Co - 479-482
Stone, Joseph, assistant district attornev, countv of New
York : - 484-488
History of rules requiring announcement of the use of mechanical
reproductions on broadcasting programs 495
in
rv CONTENTS
Additional information submitted for the record — Continued
Federal Trade Commission: Page
Docket 7304 — In the matter of Teleradio Advertisers 586
Letter from Earl W. Kintner, Chairman 565
Harris, Hon. Oren:
Affidavit on motion for an inspection of grand jury minutes 612
Correspondence with —
Federal Communications Commission 13, 14
Federal Trade Commission 10-13
Letters to Hon. Frank S. Hogan, district attornev, countv
of New York ^ 617, 618
Press release, July 31, 1959 615
Hilgemeier, Eddie, affidavit of 286
Hogan, Hon. Frank S.:
Letter from 617
Memorandum of law 605
Jurist, Edward, interrogation of, by Charles P. Howze, Jr., attorne}^
for the subcommittee 380
Kletter, Edward:
Geritol sales, 1956-59 167
Memo of amount paid to Richard Jackman 182
Lishman, Robert W. :
Notice of motion for an inspection of grand jury minutes 615
Sound track of "Dotto" dated —
February 25, 1958 280
Mav 20,^1958 290
July 15, 1958 264
Sound track of "Twenty-one" dated —
October 3, 1956__I 120
November 28, 1956 16
Decembers, 1956 37
May 13, 1957 64
May 20, 1957 78
National Broadcasting Co., letter from Thomas E. Ervin 195
Schweitzer, Hon. Mitchell D., order granting motion for inspection of
grand jury minutes 616
Snodgrass, James, letters of 63, 64, 75, 76
Stempel, Herbert, checks from Daniel Enright 33, 34
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 6, 1959
House or REPRESENTATrvTis,
Special Subcommittee on Legislative
Oversight of the Committee on
Interstate and Foreign Commerce,
Washington^ D.G.
The special subcommittee met at 10 a.m. in the caucus room, Old
House Office Building, Hon. Oren Harris (chairman) presiding.
Present : Representatives Harris, INIack of Illinois, Rogers of Texas,
Flynt, Moss, Springer, Derounian, and Devine.
^Vlso present: Robert W. Lishman, counsel to the subcommittee;
Beverly M. Coleman, subcommittee principal attorney; Charles P.
Howze, subcommittee attorney; Richard N. Goodwin, subcommittee
special consultant; Herman Clay Beasley, subcommittee clerk; and
Jack jNIarshall Stark, minority counsel.
The Chairman. Tlie subcommittee will be in order.
The Subcommittee on Legislative Oversight of the House Commit-
tee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce has met this morning to begin
the taking of testimony to assist the committee in considering legisla-
tion pertaining to Federal regulatory agencies within its jurisdiction
and pertaining to "advertising, fair competition, and labeling," as set
forth in House Resolution 56, section (0) .
The ]:»articular Federal regulatory agencies now involved and about
which I will speak later are the Federal Trade Commission and the
Federal Communications Commission.
The Special Subcommittee on Legislative Ovei^sight was originally
created pursuant to section 136 of the Legislative Reorganization Act
of 1946 (60 Stat. 812, 2 U.S.C. sec. 190(d), H. Res. 99^ and 152, 85th
Cong., 1st sess., as amended), to conduct a general investigation into
the operation of the Federal regulatory agencies. The principal aims
of the subcommittee's investigations have been to determine whether
or not the agencies have been administering the statutes under which
they operate in accordance with the intent of the Congress, express
or implied, and whether the enabling statutes are adequate to meet
today's changed conditions.
The subcommittee's authoritv to hold these hearings is based on the
Legislative Reoriranization Act of 1946 (60 Stat. 812, 2 U.S.C. sec.
196(d), H. Res. 7, 86th Cong., and H. Res. 56, 86th Cong.), adopted
January 28, 1959.
The texts of House Resolution 7 and House Resolution 56, rule XI,
26, of the Rules of the House of Representatives, and of the subcom-
mittee's statement of policy of May 20, 1959, are all contained in the
[rules of procedure of the subcommittee which were adopted on May 20,
1959. These rules will be included in the record.
2 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
(Eules of procedure referred to follow :)
Rules of Procedure
Special Subcommittee on Legislative Oversight of the House Committee on
Intei-state and Foreign Commerce (H. Res. 56, S6th Congress) U.S. House
of Representatives
EIGHTY-SIXTH CONGRESS
Special Subcommittee on Legislative Oversight
OREN HARRIS, Arkansas, Chairman
PETER F. MACK, JR., Illinois JOHN B. BENNETT, Michigan
WALTER ROGERS, Texas WILLIAM L. SPRINGER, Illinois
JOHN J. FLYNT, JR., Georgia STEVEN B. DEROUNIAN, New York
JOHN E. MOSS, California SAMUEL L. DBVINE, Ohio
Robert W. Lishman, Chief Counsel
Herman Clay Beasley, Chief Clerk
The special Subcommittee on Legislative Oversight was appointed under the
authority of section 136 of the Legislative Reorganization Act of 1946 (60 Stat.
812, H. Res. 7, 86th Cong., and H. Res. 50, 86th Cong.), agreed to January 28,
1959.
[H. Res. 7, S6th Cong., 1st sess.]
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
January 7, 1959
Mr. Smith of Virginia submitted the following resolution ; which was considered
and agreed to
RESOLUTION
Resolved, That the rules of the House of Representatives of the S5th Congress, together
with all applicable provisions of the Legislative Reorganization Act of 1946, as amended,
be, and they are hereby, adopted as the rules of the House of Representatives of the S6th
Congress.
[H. Res. 56, S6th Cong., 1st sess.]
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
January 7, 1959
Mr. Harris submitted the following resolution ; which was referred to the Committee on
Rules
January 26, 1959
Reported with amendments, referred to the House Calendar, and ordered to be printed
January 27, 1959
Considered and agreed to
RESOLUTION
Resolved, That effective from January .3, 1959, the Committee on Interstate and Foreign
Commerce may make investigations and studies into matters within its jurisdiction,
including the following ;
(1) Policies with respect to competition among the various modes of transportation,
whether rail, air, motor, water, or pipeline : measures for increased safety ; and adequacy
of the national transportation system for defense and the needs of an expanding economy ;
(2) Policies with respect to the promotion of the development of civil aviation ; meas-
ures for increased safety ; restrictions on American air carriers which impede the free flow
of commerce ; routes, rates, accounts, and subsidy payments ; airport construction, hazards
of adjacency to airports, and condemnation of airspace ; aircraft and airline liability :
aircraft research and development, and market for American aircraft ; and air navigational
aids and traffic control ;
(3) Allocation of radio spectrum ; color television ; pay television ; educational tele-
vision ; ownership and control of radio and television stations ; technical developments in
the communications field ;
(4) Adequacy of the protection to investors afforded by the disclosure and regulatory
provisions of the various Securities Acts ;
(5) Adequacy of petroleum, natural gas, and electric energy resources for defense and
the needs of an expanding economy ; adequacy, promotion, regulation, and safety of the
facilities for extraction or generation, transmission and distribution of such resources ;
development of synthetic liquid fuel processes ; and regulation of security issues of and
control of natural gas pipeline companies ;
(6) Advertising, fair competition, and labeling;
(7) Research in weather, including air pollution and smog, and artificially induced
weather ;
(8) Effects of inflation upon benefits provided under railroad retirement and railroad
unemployment programs ; and inequities in provisions of statutes relating thereto, with
comparison of benefits under the social security system ;
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 3
(9) Adequacy of medical facilities, medical personnel, and medical teaching and train-
ing facilities ; research into human diseases ; provisions for medical care ; efficient and
effective quarantine : protection to users against incorrectly labeled and deleterious foods,
drugs, cosmetics, and devices ; and other matters relating to public health ;
(10) Disposition of funds arising from the operation of the Trading With the Enemy
Act ;
(11) Current and prospective consumption of newsprint and other papers used in the
printing of newspapers, magazines, or such other publications as are admitted to second-
class mailing privileges ; current and prospective production and supply of such papers,
factors affecting such supply, and possibilities of additional production through the use of
alternative source materials ;
(12) Increase in traffic accidents on the streets and highways of the United States
during recent years ; factors responsible for such increase, the resulting deaths, personal
injuries, and economic losses ; and measures for eliminating such accidents or reducing
their frequency and severity ; and
(13) The administration and enforcement by departments and agencies of the Govern-
ment of provisions of law relating to subjects which are within the jurisdiction of such
committee.
Provided, That the committee shall not undertake any investigation of any subject
which is being investigated by any other committee of the House.
For the purposes of such investigations and studies the committee, or any subcommittee
thereof, may sit and act during the present Congress at such times and places within the
United States, whether the House has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings,
and to require, by subpena or otherwise, the attendance and testimony of such witnesses
and the production of such books, records, correspondence, memorandums, papers, and
documents as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under the signature of the
chairman of the committee or any member of the committee designated by him, and may
be served by any person designated b.v such chairman or member.
The committee may report to the House at any time during the present Congress the
results of any investigation or study made under authority of this resolution, together
with such recommendations as it deems appropriate. Any such report shall be filed with
the Clerk of the House if the House is not in session.
R^TLES OF PbOCEDUBE
SPECIAL StTBCOMMITTEE ON LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT OF THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON
INTERSTATE AND FOREIGN COMMERCE
(Adopted May 20, 1959)
(Issued Pursuant to H. Res. 7, H. Res. 56, and Rule XI (26, (k) and (1), Rules
of the House of Representatives, 8(>tli Congress (H. Doc. 458, 85tli Congress) )
1. The Subcommittee shall conduct investigations pertaining to the workings
of the independent regulatory commissions and agencies which are subject to
the jurisdiction of the parent committee and pertaining to the adequacy of
existing commission and agency laws and regulations and their administration.
The investigations are intended to assist the Subcommittee in making legislative
or other recommendations to the Congress and to the administrative commis-
sions and agencies, and to fulfill the duty of legislative oversight and supervision
provided in the Legislative Reorganization Act of 1946.
2. The subject of any investigation in connection with which witnesses are
summoned or shall otherwise appear shall be announced by the Chainnan of
the Subcommittee before commencement of any hearing. The information
sought to be elicited in the hearing shall be relevant and germane to the subject
as so stated.
3. Subpenas shall be signed and issued by the Chairman of the Committee
on Interstate and Foreign Commerce or any member of the Subcommittee desig-
nated by the Chairman. Witnesses shall be subpenaed at a reasonably sufficient
time to be determined by the Chairman in advance of any hearing, in order to
give the witness an opportunity to prepare for the hearing and to employ counsel
should he so desire.
4. If the Subcommittee determines that the interrogation of a witness in a
public hearing might endanger national security or unjustly injure his reputa-
tion or the reputation of other individuals, the Subcommittee shall interrogate
such witness in an executive session for the purpose of determining the neces-
sity or advisability of conducting such interrogation thereafter in a public
bearing.
5. Attendance at executive sessions shall be limited to members of the Sub-
committee, its staff, and other persons whose presence is requested or con-
sented to by the Subcommittee.
6. All discussion, testimony, and action occurring in executive session shall
be kept secret and shall not be released or used in public sessions without the
consent of the Subcommittee.
7. All other hearings shall be public. •
4 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
8. A subcommittee quorum for the purpose of taking testimony shall consist
of not less than two members. No hearing shall be conducted in the absence of
a quorum of the Subcommittee.
9. All witnesses at public or executive hearinjrs who testify as to matters of
fact shall give all testimony under oath or affirmation. Only the Chairman or
a member of the Subcommitee shall be empowered to administer such oath or
affirmation.
10. A complete and accurate record shall be kept of all testimony and pro-
ceedings at hearings, both in public and in executive session.
11. Any witness or his counsel, upon approval of the Chairman and at the
expense of the witness, may obtain a transcript of public testimony of the
witness.
12. Any witness or his counsel, upon approval of the Chairman and at the
expense of the witness, may also obtain a transcript of any executive testimony
of the witness when a special release of said testimony prior to public release
is authorized by the Chairman, or after said testimony has been made public by
the Subcommittee.
13. At every investigative hearing, public or executive, witnesses may be ac-
companied by their own counsel for the purpose of advising them concerning
their constitutional rights. The failure of a witness to secure coimsel shall not
excuse such witness from attendance in response to a subpena.
14. The participation of counsel during the course of any investigative hearing
shall be limited to advising the witness as to his constitutional rights. Counsel
shall not be permitted to engage in oral argument with the Subcommittee or to
cross-examine, but shall confine his activity to the area of such advice to Ms
client.
This rule shall not be construed as authorizing counsel to coach the witness,
answer for the witness, or pvit words in the witness' mouth, or as excusing a
witness from testifying in the event his counsel is ejected for contumacy or
disorderly conduct.
1.5. The privilege of a witness to be accompanied by counsel shall not be
exercised in such a manner as to interfere with the orderly conduct of the
investigative hearing or to diminish in any respect the Subommitte's control of
the conduct of such hearing.
16. Any witness desiring to make a prepared or written statement for the
record of the investigative proceedings in public or executive session, insofar
as it is practicable, shall file a copy of such statement with the counsel of the
Subcommittee within a reasonable period of time in advance of the hearing at
which the statement is to be presented.
17. All such statements so received which are relevant and germane to the
subject of the investigation, upon approval of the majority of the Subcommittee,
may be inserted into the official transcript of the proceedings.
18. All witnesses shall be limited to giving information relevant and germane
to the subject under investigation. The Subcommittee shall rule upon the ad-
missibility of all testimony or information presented by the ^^itness.
19. At the conclusion of his testimony, or at the conclusion of testimony of a
witness who has commented on him adversely, any person appearing before the
Subcommittee shall have the privilege, upon approval of the Subcommittee, to
file a supplementary written sworn statement of facts, provided this privilege is
exercised within a reasonable time to be fixed by the Chairman.
20. Each witness who has been subpenaed or who has appeared at the request
of the Subcommittee, upon the completion of his testimony, may report to the
office of the Clerk of the Subcommittee and there sign appropriate vouchers for
travel allowances and attendance fees upon the Subcommittee. If hearings are
held in cities other than Washington, D.C., the witness may contact the Clerk
of the Subcommittee, or his representative, prior to leaving the hearing room.
21. The foi-egoing Rules of Procedure are subordinate to the Rules of the
House of Representatives and are to be intei-preted and applied in conjunction
with and in conformity to the Rules of the House.
Appendix I
Rule XI. 26, Rules of the House of Representatives
(a) The rules of the House are the rules of its committees so far as appli-
cable, except that a motion to reoess from day to day is a motion of high privi-
lege in committees. Committees may adopt additional rules not inconsistent
therewith.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 5
(b) Each committee shall keep a complete record of all committee action.
Such record shall include a record of the votes on any question on which a record
vote is demanded.
(c) All committee hearings, records, data, charts, and files shall be kept
separate and distinct from the congressional oflBce records of the Member serv-
ing as chairman of the committee; and such records shall be the property of the
House and all Members of the House shall have access to such records. Each
co mm ittee is authorized to have printed and bound testimony and otlier data
presented at hearings held by the committee.
(d) It shall be the duty of the chairman of each committee to report or cause
to be reported promptly to the House any measure approved by his committee
and to take or cause to be taken necessary steps to bring the matter to a vote.
(e) No measure or recommendation shall be reported from any committee
unless a majority of the committee vi'ere actually present.
(f ) Each committee shall, so far as practicable, require all witnesses appear-
ing before it to file in advance written statements of their proposed testimony,
and to limit their oral presentation to brief summaries of their alignment. The
staff of each committee shall prepare digests of such statements for the use of
committee members.
(g) All hearings conducted by standing committees or their subcommittees
shall be open to the public, except executive sessions for marking up bills or
for voting or where the committee by a majority vote orders an executive
session.
(h) Each committee may fix the number of its members to constitute a quorum
for taking testimony and receiving evidence, which shall be not less than two.
(i) The chairman at an investigative hearing shall announce in an opening state-
ment the subject of the investigation.
(j) A copy of the committee I'ules, if any, and paragraph 26 of rule XI of the
House of Representatives shall be made available to the witness.
(k) Witnesses at investigative hearings may be accompanied by their own
counsel for the purpose of advising them concerning their constitutional rights.
(1) The chairman may punish breaches of order and decorum, and of
professional ethics on the part of counsel, by censure and exclusion from the
hearings ; and the committee may cite the offender to the House for contempt.
(m) If the committee determines that evidence or testimony at an investi-
gative hearing may tend to defame, degrade, or incriminate any person, it shall —
(1) receive such evidence or testimony in executive session:
(2) afford such person an opportunity voluntarily to appear as a witness;
and
(.3) receive and dispose of requests from such person to subpena addi-
tional witnesses.
(n) Except as provided in paragraph (m), the chairman shall receive and the
committee shall dispose of requests to STibpena additional witnesses.
(o) No evidence or testimony taken in executve session may be released or
used in public sessions without the consent of the committee.
(p) In the discretion of the committee, witnesses may submit brief and
pe'-tinent sworn statements in writing for inclusion in the record. The com-
mittee is the sole judge of the pertinency of testimony and evidence adduced at
its hearing.
(q) Upon payment of the cost thereof, a witness may obtain a transcript
copy of his testimony given at a public session, or, if given at an executive ses-
sion, when authorized by the committee.
Appendix II
OUTLINE OF SUBCOMMITTEE ACTIVITIES
The Special Subcommittee on Legislative Oversight on May 20, 1959, adopted
a policy outlining the scope of the Subcommittee's activities. The policy adopted
is as follows :
Purposes
To examine the execution of the laws by the administrative agencies, ad-
ministering laws within the legislative jurisdiction of the parent committee, to
see whether or not the law as the Congress intended in its enactment has been
and is being carried out or whether it has been and is being repealed or re-
vamped by those who administer it. The Subcommittee will conduct investiga-
tions pertaining to the working of these independent regulatory commis.sions and
6 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
agencies and pertaining to the adequacy of existing commission and agency
laws and regulations and their administration. Such investigations are to assist
the Subcommittee in making legislative or other reconmiendations to the Con-
gress and to the administrative commissions and agencies, and to fulfill the duty
of legislative oversight and supervision as provided in the Legislative Reorgani-
zation Act of 1946. In pursuance of the foregoing, the Subcommittee vpill also
conduct investigations and make reports concerning matters referred to in the
report of the Special Subcommittee on Legislative Oversight, 85th Congress, 2d
Session, House Report No. 2711.
Agencies To Be Examined
(1) Civil Aeronautics Board, Federal Aviation Agency, Federal Communica-
tions Commission, Federal Povrer Commission, Federal Trade Commission, Food
and Drug Administration, Interstate Commerce Commission, Securities and Ex-
change Commission ;
(2) Bureau of Standards, National Institutes of Health, Weather Bureau; and
(3) Foreign Claims Settlement Commission, Ofiice of Alien Property, Public
Health Service, Railroad Retirement Board, and other agencies within legislative
jurisdiction of the committee.
Subjects To Be Considered
(1) Review and analysis of the laws and amendments, and intent of the
Congress when enacted ;
(2) Area of the field regulated by each law, changing circumstances, and
growth of the field since enactment ;
(3) Consideration of the legislative standards in the law to determine
whether they can be drafted in more precise terms with the view of reducing
administrative discretion ;
(4) Consideration of rules and regulations issued by the agency under the
discretionary delegations, reconciliation with statutory standards and legisla-
tive intent, manner in which rules have been applied in practice ;
(5) Administrative interpretations and practices apart from formal rules and
regulations, public notice of such interpretations and practices, extent to which
in fact administration is by internal interpretations as distinguished from pub-
lished rules ;
(6) Judicial decisions on the administration of the law by the agency, the
statutory standards, rules and regulations, and administi'ative interpretations,
enlargement of area of regulation supported by the decisions;
( 7 ) Enf oicement of statute, rules, and regulations ; and
(8) Organization of agency :
(a) Independence and bipartisanship of commission, as intended in its
creation; identification of the regulators with the regulated;
(b) Personnel: Experience, relationship to agency policy, status under
civil service ; and
(c) Workload, distribution of personnel as to statutory duties or on duties
assumed through administrative interpretations, coordination with State
and other regulatory agencies, trade, or industry enforcement groups.
The Chairman. Before testifying, each witness has received or will
receive a printed copy of these rules and his especial attention called
to pages 4, 7, 8, and 9, wherein among other things, provision is made
for a witness to have the privilege of being accompanied by counsel
for the purpose of advising liim concerning liis constitutional rights.
Over the last year or so, the subcommittee has received numerous
complaints regarding the conduct of so-called television quiz pro-
grams. Beginning in 1955, television audiences were attracted on a
mass scale by several packaged programs which featured contests
between selected members of the public who undertook to answer ques-
tions asked by a master of ceremonies. The contestants, in proportion
to their competitive success, were awarded prizes of sums of money or
of merchandise. Some contestants were able to gross sums in excess
of $200,000.
The quiz programs were represented to the viewing public as honest
contests of skill, knowledge, and the ability to remember and tliink
INYESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 7
quickly under pressure. Elaborate precautions were taken to create
the impression that no favoritism could possibly be shown one con-
testant over another. Internationally respected financial institutions
lent their names and facilities to bolster the public image of gilt-
edged integrity. Distinguished educators were said to have approved
questions for accuracy and degree of difficulty. Studio audiences were
repeatedly warned against any audible reaction that might be con-
strued as a hint to the contestant. On some programs, contestants were
placed in ostensibly soundproof booths to prevent their hearing ques-
tions asked their opponents.
JNIany of the contestants had strong personal appeal and during
their week-by-week appeai'ances attracted a large personal following.
Contestants became nationally publicized figures.
In August 1958, there came allegations tJiat on one of the quiz pro-
grams questions were asked to which answers had been secretly fur-
nished the contestant before the program went on the air. An investi-
gation of the charge was made within the television industry, and
shortly thereafter the program was replaced. Following this inci-
dent, other allegations were made relating to other quiz programs.
These were met with denials and by cross-accusations.
On September 17, 1958, the third September 1958 grand jury was
impaneled by the court of general sessions of New York County to
inquire into allegations which had been made respecting quiz pro-
grams, for the purpose of determining whether the facts disclosed
might show a violation of New York law. The grand jury heard
evidence over a 9-month period from some 200 witnesses. On July
10, 1959, it handed down a report and presentment setting fortli its
conclusions. The presentment has been sealed by the court and has
not as yet been made public.
The Subcommittee on Legislative Oversight has jurisdiction over
the Federal Trade Commission, which is charged with preventing
and suppressing "* * * unfair methods of competition in commerce,
and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in commerce" (Federal
Trade Commission Act, as amended, 52 Stat. Ill, 15 U.S.C., sec.
45), and over the Federal Communications Commission, which is
charged with insuring that broadcasting station licensees operate so
as to seiwe "* * * public interest, convenience, and necessity" (Fed-
eral Communications Act of 1934, as amended, sec. 309(a), 70 Stat.
3,47U.S.C.sec.309(a)).
At the conclusion of this statement there will be included in the
record copies of letters I sent on August 18, 1959, to the Chairmen of
the Federal Trade Commission and the Federal Communications
Commission in which I sought their views as to the jurisdiction of
their respective agencies to inquire into the allegedly "rigged" tele-
vision quiz programs. Their answers will also be included.
In 1958, when the aforesaid allegations were first made, the sub-
committee began making preliminary inquiries to discover whether
they were tiiie. Upon learning that the grand jury had been im-
paneled to make a thorough study of the matter, the subcommittee,
and I think wisely so, decided to postpone its investigation pending
the results of the grand jury inquest.
When we learned that the grand jury's presentment had been
sealed by Hon. Mitchell D. Schweitzer, judge of the New York
8 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
County court of general sessions, the subcommittee resumed its ef-
forts to uncover the facts. Representatives of the subcommittee con-
ferred with Hon. Frank S. Hogan, district attorney of New York
County, whose office had managed the grand jury investigation.
District Attorney Hogan had filed with the court of general sessions
a memorandum of law setting forth reasons why the public interest
required that the grand jury's presentment be made public.
The presentment did not mention any individuals, companies, or
quiz programs by name. It reflects conclusions of the grand jury,
reached after it had "examined the practices of six of the most pop-
ular television quiz programs." Also, according to District Attorney
Hogan's legal memorandum on file in court, the presentment con-
cluded —
* * * with a recommendation that copies thereof be forwarded to certain speci-
fied agencies which are in position to assist in rectifying the condition.
Our subcommittee, charged as it is with the duty of investigating
and making recommendations concerning the statutes administered
by Federal agents and their enforcement pertaining to advertising,
unfair competition, and broadcasting, is obviously one of the agencies
within the scope of the grand jury recommendations.
However, for subcommittee purposes, access to the presentment is
of far less importance than access to the testimony and exhibits upon
which it was based.
In order to formulate a legislati^-e remedy we must have a hearing
record clearly showing the facts of the problem to be remedied. We
cannot legislate on the basis of accepting the conclusions in a present-
ment, however wise and correct these conclusions may be. This does
not mean, as I point out later, that we are interested in the matter for
the purpose of exposing or ridiculing any of the participants, whether
they be contestants, producers, advertising agencies, sponsors, or
broadcasting companies. On the contrary, we are taking eveiy reason-
able precaution to prevent this. The subcommittee, therefore, obtained
an order from Judge Schweitzer granting us access to the grand jury
testimony. Since the judge had already sealed the presentment and
we were primarily interested in seeing the testimony with its specific
mention of persons, times, and places, we made no request to see the
presentment.
In its order granting the subcommittee access to the minutes and
exhibits of the grand jury, the court specified "that said minutes are
not to be published but to be used solely for investigative purposes or
for proper impeachment purposes." The subcommittee is thus bound
not to disclose infonnation from the grand jury minutes unless testi-
mony is given in our hearings that conflicts with that given by a wit-
ness before the grand jury.
Our access to the grand jury minutes aids us in the following re-
spects : Time and money will be saved. Our investigators do not have
to duplicate District Attorney Hogan's 9-month job of questioning a
multitude of witnesses and exploring leads. We can select and limit
the number of witnesses to be called before us. Because of our ac-
cess to the investigatory work already done, we can in a compai^atively
few days of hearing establish the facts necessary to accomplish our
legislative purpose and duty. Instead of having to call in 20 wit-
nesses, we can do it by calling only 1 or 2.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 9
The testimony before us will be more trustworthy, since the wit-
nesses are faced with our ability to confront them with their previous
sworn testimony before the grand jury.
We shall endeavor to prevent unnecessary exposure and ridicule
of a witness. Some participants in the quiz show programs have de-
nied any wrongdoing, both in testimony before the grand jury and in
interviews with our subcommittee investigators. In some instances
we have been unable to uncover sufficient evidence to refute these de-
nials. In these situations the subcommittee will not call participants
as witnesses.
It is our expectation, based on information now in our possession,
that our hearings will disclose that the improprieties alleged in the
conduct of certain quiz programs extend even beyond what we had
originally suspected. Our investigation indicates that a number of
"control" techniques have been used by those responsible for the com-
mercial success of these shows in a deliberate effort to favor some con-
testants over others. We expect to hear testimony concerning the de-
tails of these techniques, some of which were subtle and ingenious.
The subcommittee believes that if its hearings lay bare a pattern of
deception of the American public in some instances through these
quiz shows, a serious gap in the present regulation of broadcasting
practices and of "unfair methods of competition in commerce, or un-
fair or deceptive acts of practices in commerce" will be revealed.
Few Avould care to watch a full half-hour of "commercials" on
television. The American people do not submit voluntarily to ad-
vertisements of a sponsored product without additional attractions.
It follows from this that the television program presented to attract
the public is closely tied to the advertising of the sponsors product.
Apart from the competition of one program owner, packager, or
producer against another for the high program rating necessary to
attract commercial sponsorship, the subcommittee believes that the
deliberate cultivation in viewers' minds of the inseparability of the
program and the product advertised compels inquiry into the fairness
and honesty of program presentation as well as the fairness and hon-
esty of representations made about the sponsor's product itself.
We do not feel that the quiz programs under our consideration are
"mere entertainment" in the same sense that a movie or other dra-
matic production is entertainment. Everyone knows that dramatic
productions are carefully rehearsed. The same can be said of pro-
fessional wrestling matches which are required by law in some juris-
dictions to be designated "exhibitions" and not as "contests" or
"matches".
The subcommittee expects to show that sponsors, advertising agen-
cies, owners, packagers, producers, net-works and station licensees,
as well as many contestants, all benefited from the extraordinary ap-
peal of the quiz shows to the public. It is not the subcommittee's
function to prejudice whether existing law has been violated; but,
if existing law has not been violated, then we believe that it is our
duty to recommend to the Congress legislation that will make a repe-
tition of any such deceptive practices too risky to attempt in the
future.
It must be understood by everyone concerned that our inquiry into
the conduct of television quiz show programs is not an attempt to
10 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
-exercise any power of censorship. The subcommittee is interested
solely in whether commercial deceit has been practiced on a national
scale by means of deliberate and willful holding out to the public as
honest contests, performances which were rigged in advance.
It is one thing to arouse and hold the attention of the viewing public
by programs which are openly and avowedly pure fiction and should
be known as such to any reasonable person. It is quite another thing,
however, when the airwaves, belonging to the people, whose free use
has been licensed by the Federal Communications Commission, are
used deceitfully to exploit for private profit the interest of the view-
ing public.
Our hearings will take up several programs. The first one will be
"Twenty-one," which was produced on the National Broadcasting
Co. network by Barry & Enright Productions, Inc., and sponsored by
Pharmaceuticals, Inc., manufacturers of Geritol and other medicinal
products. This was one of the six shows wliich were the subject of
the New York County grand jury investigation.
(Letters referred to are as follows :)
August 18, 19,59.
Hon. Earl W. Kintnek,
Chairman, Federal Trade Commission,
Washington, D.C.
Dear Mr. Kintner : The subcommittee is studying certain television quiz show
programs to ascertain, among other things, the adequacy of the Federal Trade
Commission and the Federal Communications Commission enabling statutes to
prevent a repetition of palming off upon the public of dishonest schemes as
honest contests of skill.
These programs we understand on the basis of presently available informa-
tion may not have actually misrepresented an advertised product. However,
they deceived millions of pei*sons into repeated viewing and hearing of adver-
tisements of certain products with resultant tremendous increases in the sales
thereof. Meanwhile, equally good competing products whose advertising cam-
paigns were honest suffered sales losses or did not keep up competitively.
In the near future the subcommittee will hold hearings concerning this mat-
ter. We should appreciate early advice from you as to the nature and extent
of your Commission's jurisdicion over prize contest television programs of the
kind described above and over the persons responsible therefor.
Sincerely yours,
Oren Harris,
Memher of Congress, Chairman.
Federal Trade Commission,
Washington, D.C, September 3, 1959.
Hon. Oren Harris,
Chairman, Special Subcommittee on Legislative Oversight,
House Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce,
Washington, D.C.
Dear Mr. Chairman : This is in further response to your letter of August
18, 19.59, regarding prize contest television programs in situations where ar-
ranged contests are falsely represented to the public as honest tests of skill.
You inquire as to the nature and extent of the Federal Trade Commission's
jurisdiction over such programs and over the persons responsible therefor.
Your letter recites that, while there may have been no misrepresentation
of products advertised, millions of persons were deceived into viewing and
hearing advertisements with resultant increases in the sales of products so
advertised to the disadvantage of competing products.
The Commission has made no investigation of the matters to which you
refer and, consequently, is not in a position to evaluate the responsibility
of those whose products were advertised for the nature of the programs oil
which the advertisements were presented. In any event, the Commission has
not exercised jurisdiction with respect to practices of the kind related in your
ESrVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 11
letter and, in my opinion, there is a serious question as to wliettier such juris-
diction exists.
The pertinent provision of law to be considered is section 5 of the Fed-
eral Trade Commission Act, which prohibits "unfair methods of competition
in commerce, and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in commerce." Under
that section the Commission on many occasions has proceeded against false
and deceptive advertising. However, the situation related by your letter does
not involve any false or deceptive advertising, but rather what may be termed
"deceptive entertainment" in the course of which advertisements, which are
not challenged, were made.
In the leading case of Federal Trade Commission v. R. F. Kcppel d Bra. (291
U.S. 304 (1934) ), the Commission was sustained in ordering a manufacturer to
cease and desist selling its candy products in packages so arranged as to induce
the resale of such candy by a game of chance. In that case the practice pro-
hibited was directly connected with the merchandising of the product and the
■'game of chance" aspect was deemed an unfair method of competition on the
following basis :
"* * * It is true that the statute does not authorize regulation which has no
purpose other than that of relieving merchants from troublesome competition or
of censoring the morals of businessmen. But here the competitive method is
shown to exploit consumers, children, who are unable to protect themselves. It
employs a device whereby the amount of the return they receive from the ex-
penditure of money is made to depend upon chance. Such devices have met with
condemnation throughout the community. Without inquiring whether, as re-
spondent contends, the criminal statutes imposing penalties on gambling, lot-
teries, and the like, fail to reach this particular practice in most of any of the
States, it is clear that the practice is of the sort which the common law and
criminal statutes have long deemed contrary to public policy."
The situation which you have described differs from the principles under which
the Keppel case was decided in that the "deceptive entertainment" constitutes
simply the surrounding cijcunistances during which the nondeceptive advertise-
ments were made, is not an intricate part of the sale and does not itself exploit
customers who are unable to protect themselves in the sense that the game of
chance appealed to children. Neither can it be said that "deceptive entertain-
ment" has long been deemed contrary to public policy by the common law and
criminal statutes.
The case of Northam Warren Corp. v. Federal Trade Commission, (59 F. 2d
196 (C.A. 2, 1932)), involved a Commission proceeding with respect to undis-
closed circumstances surrounding the making of representations concerning par-
ticular products. The situation was that a manufacturer of toilet articles had
paid certain well-known persons of the theater and social life considerable sums
of money for testimonials. The Commission had not challenged the truthful-
ness of the testimonials, but had found that the failure to disclose that pay-
ment had been made for the testimonials constituted an unfair method of com-
petition under the Federal Trade Commission Act. This case is comparable to
the situation described in your letter inasmuch as the Commission's complaint
was directed at the means whereby the public's attention was directed to testi-
monials or advertisements and an undisclosed situation existing in connection
therewith, rather than the truh or falsity of the testimonials or advertisements
themselves.
The court of appeals in the Northam Warren case held that, inasmuch as there
were no misrepresentations as to the products involved, the Commission was
without .iurisdiction. In the course of so holding, the court stated •
"The Federal Trade Commission Act (15 U.S.C.A. 41-51) does not purport to
establish a decalogue of good business manners or morals * * *. Even if a
practice may be regarded as unethical, it would still be beyond the purview of the
f-^^ ^^*^y''^^^''^ *^^ public interest necessary to supiiort the Commission's .jurisdic-
tion * * *. The strongest argument the respondent makes is that failure to
state the price paid for the testimonial amounts to deception and misrepresenta-
tion concerning the petitioner's product and in that wav the petitioner is able to
deprive honest manufacturers of a market. Federal Trade Comm. v. Winsted
Hosiery Co., 258 U.S. 483, 42 S. Ct. 384, 66 L. Ed. 729. But where unlawful re-
straint of trade has been ordered to be discontinued, it has always appeared that
there was some dishonesty in labeling or marketing the goods * * *."
In both the Keppel and Northam Warren cases referred to above, the courts
were concerned with the extent to which the Commission should attempt to
12 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
censor the morals of businessmen. This question of censorship is of vital con-
sideration in appraising the Commission's jurisdiction over the "deceptive enter-
tainment" described by your letter. If the Commission were to assert juris-
diction over entertainment, it would be difficult to set a limit at which this
censorship should stop. For example, some States do not allow wrestling
matches except when billed as exhibitions rather than as contests. The Com-
mission has not had occasion to investigate the matter and has no information
as to whether, in fact, wrestling matches are true contests of skill or planned
exhibitions. However, if the Commission were to exercise jurisdiction over "de-
ceptive entertainment," it would consequently be appropriate to investigate the
true nature of wrestling matches presented over television during which com-
mercials of sponsors are presented to the public.
The Commission's jurisdiction would not stop at "deceptive entertainment,"
but would logically have to continue to a complete censorship of all such enter-
tainment. This would take the Commission far afield from what are presently
conceived to be its delegated functions.
I do not believe that by en.ictment of the Federal Trade Commission Act the
Congress intended the Commission to become censors of television entertain-
ment. In fact, the Federal Communications Commission, which has a much
more direct statutory authority over radio and television transmission, is
specifically foreclosed by statute from exercising "the power of censorship over
the radio communications or signals transmitted by any radio station" (47 U.S.C.
326).
I am, therefore, of the opinion that, absent a clear directive by the Congress,
the Commission is not authorized to exercise its section 5 Federal Trade Com-
mission Act jurisdiction over the situations such as that described in your letter.
AVith kindest regards.
Sincerely yours.
Earl W. Ktntner. Chairman.
Federal Trade Commission,
Washington, October 12, 1959.
Hon. Oren Harris,
Chairman, Special Subcommittee on Legislative Oversight,
House Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce,
Washington, D.C.
Dear Mr. Chairman : By letter of September 3, 19.59, in response to your
inquiry of August 18, 1959, I expressed my opinion as to the nature and ex-
tent of the jurisdiction of the Federal Trade Commission over prize contest
television programs in situations where arranged contests are falsely repre-
sented to the public as honest contests of skill.
In the course of that letter, I indicated that the Commission had made no in-
vestigation of such a matter and had not exercised jurisdiction with respect to
such an alleged practice.
It has since come to my attention, in fact just this past Friday, that the Com-
mi.ssion's staff did investigate a complaint received in December 19")6, to the
effect that a television quiz program was being conducted other than as a true
test of skill between contestants. This complaint was investigated on direction
of our Bureau of Investigation by our New York office, which concluded after
investigation that the allegations were unsupported by evidence. The program
in question had gone off the air, no other complaints had been received regard-
ing that program or any other programs produced by the parties complained of
and the executive producer of the show submitted an affidavit which averred
that the producing corporation "has not represented in the past and will not in
the future represent that any quiz program which it produces is spontaneous and
unrehearsed when such is not the case. * * * has not represented in the past
and will not represent in the future that any of the questions used on such
quiz programs have been prepared or approved by any person, organization or
institution when such is not the case * * * has not represented in the past and
will not in the future represent that questions used on such quiz programs have
not been seen beforehand by persons not connected with the program who have
in fact seen such questions."
In view of the foregoing, on May 0, 19.")8, in accordance with 0])erating pi'o-
cedures of the Commission, this matter was closed by the Commission's staff.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 13
I would appreciate it if you would insert tliis letter into tlie record of hearing
immediately following my previous letter of September 3, 1959, as a modiflcation
thereof.
Sincerely yours,
Eakl W. Kintnek, Chairman.
August 18, 11)59.
Hon. John C. Doerfee,
Chairman, Federal Communications Commission,
Washington, D.C.
Dear Mk. Doerfer : The subcommittee is studying certain television quiz show
programs to ascertain, among other things, the adequacy of the Federal Com-
munications Commission and the Federal Trade Commission enabling statutes
to prevent a repetition of palming off upon the public of dishonest schemes as
honest contests of skill.
These programs we understand on the basis of presently available informa-
tion may not have actually misrepresented an advertised product. However,
they deceived millions of persons into repeated viewing and hearing of adver-
tisements of certain products with resultant tremendous increases in the sales
thereof. Meanwhile, equally good competing products whose advertising cam-
paigns were honest suffered sales losses or did not keep up competitively.
In the near future the subcommittee will hold hearings concerning this mat-
ter. We should appreciate early advice from you as to the nature and extent of
your Commission's jurisdiction over prize contest television programs of the
kind described above and over the persons responsible therefor.
Sincerely yours,
Oren Harris,
Member of Congress, Chairman.
Federal Communications Commission,
Washington, D.C, September 16, 1959.
Hon. Oren Harris,
Chairman, Special Subcommittee on Legislative Oversight and Foreign Com-
merce Committee, House of Representatives, Washington, D.C.
Dear Congressman Harris : This is with reference to your letter of August 18,
1959, in which you refer to your proposed inquiry into certain television quiz
show programs. In your letter, you indicate that your subcommittee proposes to
hold hearings concerning this matter and ask that we advise you "as to the
nature and extent of your Commission's jurisdiction over prize contest tele-
vision programs of the kind described above and and over the persons responsi-
ble therefor."
As you know, the Commission has not exercised jurisdiction over the various
networks as such, nor over individual producing companies except as they are
licensees of the Commission. In fact, section 326 of the Communications Act
prohibits the Commission from exercising the power of censorship over broad-
cast material. Accordingly, the Commission has no jurisdiction over "radio and
television quiz shows" per se. The Commission has adopted rules consistent with
the United States Code governing the broadcast of lottery information, gift en-
terprises or similar schemes dependent upon chance. (See IS U.S.C 1304, also
sees. 3.122, 3.292, and 3.656 of the Commission's Rules and Regulations (47
C.F.R. 3.122, 3.292, and 3.656) .)
In view of the prohibition contained in section 326 the Commission has not
attempted, with the exception of the matters covered by the cited lottery pro-
vision of the United States Code, to exercise jurLsdiction with respect to specific
program content : but, in light of the statutory provision that every broadcast
licensee is required to operate in the public interest, the Commission has taken
the position that it has the authority and responsibility to consider the overall
programing operations of broadcast licensees. In fulfilling its obligation to
operate in the public interest, a broadcast station is expected to exercise reason-
able care and prudence with respect to its broadcast material in order to assure
that no matter is broadcast which will deceive or mislead the public. Accord-
ingly, in considering the overall operations of a licensee, the Commission can
Jind does consider whether the licensee's broadcast facilities have been used
for improper purposes such as fraud, deceit or misrepresentation, through the
failure of the licensee to exercise the measure of control reasonably to be ex-
pected in discharging his responsibility to operate in the public interest.
52294 — 60— pt. 1 2
14 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
You are already aware of the investigation conducted into these matters by
the New York County grand jury. Furthermore, the Commission has conducted
its own inquiries in connection with some of the matters which apparently will
be the subject of your hearings. In reply to the Commission's inquiries, CBS
and NBC have set forth the precautions which they are taking to prevent a
recurrence of questionable programing. In addition, the policies and practices
pursued by the networks, among others, in connection with television program-
ing are being considered in the context of the Commission's overall study of
the programing functions and activities of the networks. Your committee and
the Senate Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce have been advised
of the Commission's activities. The Commission will be glad to put at your
disposal any informational material which will be helpful to your committee.
We trust that this information will be of assistance in this matter.
By direction of the Commission.
John C. Doerfer, Chairman.
The Chairman. I might say for the information of everyone that
it is anticipated that these hearings will be concluded this week.
That is, every effort will be made, in view of commitments of members
of the subcommittee, to conclude them by Friday evening.
I might also say for the information of everyone that there will be
some evening sessions during this week. Also for information, I
might advise that Mr. Enright of Barry & Enright has requested that
the subcommittee hear Mr. Enright and JSIr. Freedman in executive
session under rule XI of the House rules, and after considering the
matter and information which lias come to the attention of the sub-
committee, the subcommittee will hear these and possibly two or three
other witnesses who have made similar requests in executive session.
Of course, following the executive sessions, the subcommittee will
determine what part of such testimony will be made public.
It might be observed that rule XI of this particular session of the
House rules provides for the protection of innocent persons whose
names might be involved.
Our first witness today will be Mr. Herbert Stempel, who was a
contestant with "Twenty-one." As part of Mr. Stempel's oral testi-
mony we will have a kinescopic reproduction in this room of an actual
"Twenty-one" program in which he participated.
But before we proceed further, Mr. Stempel, will you be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give to this committee
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
TESTIMONY OP HERBEET STEMPEL
Mr. Stempel. I do, sir.
The Chairman. Have a seat, please.
For the record, will you state your name?
Mr. Stempel. Herbert M. Stempel.
The Chairman. Will you give your address ?
Mr. Stempel. 105-15 66th Road, Forest Hills 75, N.Y.
The Chairman. Were you one of the contestants in the program
referred to as "Twenty-one" ?
Mr. Stempel. I was, sir.
The Chairman. At what time ?
Mr. Stempel. I participated from October 17, 1956, to December
5, 1956.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 15
The Chaikman". Before we show the kinescope program, Mr. Lish-
man, will you give an explanation as to what is anticipated from the
showing of this reproduction ?
Mr. LisuMAN. It is anticipated that from a showing of this repro-
duction tlie contestant, Mr, Stempel, will indicate the questions con-
cerning which he was furnished assistance in advance of the progi^am.
That is the fundamental purpose.
The program, "Twenty-one," was on the air for a period of about
2 years, from the fall of 1956 to the fall of 1958. We are about to
watch a kinescopic recording of one of these quiz programs, "Twenty-
one."
The game is operated on veiy simple principles, similar to the
card game "Twenty-one." The two contestants are each placed in
a soundproof isolation booth wliei-e they cannot hear what the other
contestant is saying or what is being said to him. One of the con-
testants in the case of this show, Mr. Stempel, is the champion. This
simply means he is the last winner in the show and has yet to be
defeated.
The other contestant, in this case Mr. Van Doren, is the challenger
and is trying to defeat the champion and become the new champion
himself.
The challenger is told in what category questions will be asked.
This category can be any subject from the entire range of hmnan
knowledge. After being told the categoiy, he is then asked how many
points he desires to play for. He may play for anywhere from 1 to
11 points. The higher the number of points he selects to play for,
the more difficult will be the question in the announced category.
If he answers the question correctly, he gets the number of points
for which he was playing. If not, he remains at zero.
The identical procedure, using the same category, is used for the
champion. Following this round, the same thing is done again, only
in a different category. If one of the contestants misses the second
question but has gotten the first one right, the number of points he
was playing for the second time is subtracted from the number of
points he achieved on the first question.
After two questions have been asked of each contestant, neither of
them knowing whether the other answered successfully or not and
therefore not taiowing what his opponent's score is, either one has the
option of stopping the game.
If the game is stopped at that point l^y eitlier contestant, then the
man with the greatest number of points wins and receives as a prize
$500 for each point differential between himself and his opponent.
If neither contestant stops the game, then they continue to be asked
questions until one of them lias reached the score of 21.
After a contestant has reached 21, his opponent has 1 chance to
reach 21 himself. However, he is not told that his opponent has
reached 21 points until lie himself has selected the number of points he
wishes to try for. If he does not make 21, then he loses the game and
the ]noney for the point differential. If there is a tie game, the two
contestants continue playing except that the value of each point in-
creases by $500 for every tie. In other words, after one tie, each point
is worth $1,000. After two ties, each point is worth $1,500. After
three ties, each is worth $2,000, and so forth and so on.
16 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
The contestant who finally wins is the champion and can stay on the
jDrogram and pile up his total of winnings until he is finall}^ defeated.
In the show you are about to watch now, you will see Mr. Van
Doren and Mr. Stempel play three tie games, thus raising greatly the
value of the points they are playing for. This show was watched
on the night of November 28, 1956, by millions of Americans who
suspensefully awaited the outcome of the challenge to Mr. Herbert
Stempel, who was the then champion on the "Twenty-one" show.
I will now ask that there be shown the kinescopic reproduction of
the November 28, 1956, "Twenty-one" quiz program show. At this
point I would like permission to have a sound track of the voices
made separately and apart and maintained in the files of the sub-
committee, and a transcript thereof included in the record of these
hearings.
The Chairman. Without objection, that will be included.
( Showing of kinescopic reproduction. )
(Transcript of the sound track follows :)
Barry. Good evening GI. I'm Jack Barry. For 6 weeks here on "Twenty -one,"
a 29-year-old college student, Herbert Stempel, has successfully beaten all of his
opponents and has run his winnings up to $69,500. Hundreds of people from all
parts of the country have offered to challenge him. Tonight some of these people
will get their chance to do so, and during the next 30 minutes we'll find out
whether they can stump Herbert Stempel. So let's meet our first two players
as Geritol, America's No. 1 tonic, presents '"Twenty-one."
From New York City, Mr. Charles Van Doren, and returning with $69,500 from
Forest Hills, N.Y., Mr. Herbert Stempel.
Welcome back to "Twenty-one," Herb Stempel, and a cordial welcome to you,
Mr. Van Doren. Nice to have you both here. Herb, last week after you won
your $69,500 we had hundreds of phone calls and thousands of letters followed
during the week when, remember, I asked you a question about where Gothic
architecture origin;ited, and you said: "Germany," and I said: "No, you are
wrong, that it was P^rance." You were so positive and people had so much
confidence in you they said that you were right and they all called in. Actually
this time you were wrong and we were right. But you went on anyway to win
the game.
Stempel. Well, Mr. Barry, I went home last week and I checked my encyclo-
pedia and I foimd out that Gothic architecture had originated at the Abbey of
St. Denis outside of Paris in 1144. Up u:itil then I was sure it was Germany.
Barry. Well. I am glad at least that this time we were right. Now, Herb,
you are faced with that awful decision again ; you have $69,500. You can take
it and quit right now and a check will be waiting for you, or you can decide to
continue playing. If you go on playing against Mr. Van Doren, and he beats
you, whatever he wins will be deducted from the money you have. So, to help
you make up your mind, here are some things you should know aliout Charles
Van Doren.
Announcer. He teaches music at Columbia University and was a student at
Cambridge University in England. He has written three books and is currently
working on his fourth, and his hobby is playing the piano in chandler music
groups.
Barry. Just out of curiosity, Mr. Van Doren, are you in any way related
to Mark Van Doren, up at Columbia University, the famous writer?
Van Doren. Yes, I am. He is my father.
Barry. He is. your father !
Van Doren. Yes.
Barry. The name Van Doren is a very well known name. Are yon related to
any of the other well-known Van Dorens?
Van Doren. Well, Dorothy Van Doren, the novelist and author of the recent
"The Country Wife" is my mother, and Carl Van Doren, the biographer of
Benjamin Franklin, the historian, was my uncle.
Barry. Well, you have every reason in the world to be mighty proud of your
name and your fanaly. Van Doren. Now, Herb Stempel, you have heard some-
thing about Charles Van Doren : you have $69,.500. Do you want to take it and
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 17
quit right now, or do you want to risk it by plaviug against him? What will
it be?
Stempel. I'll take a chance.
Barry. You will take a chance? All right, then, on we go. Gentlemen, take
your places in the studios. Don't forget to put on your earphones, and good
luck to both of you.
[Music]
Barry. Neither player in the studios can hear anything until I turn their
studios on — which I am going to do right now. Can you hear me, Herb
Stempel?
Stempel. Yes. I can.
Barry. Mr. Van Doren?
Van Doren. Yes.
Barry. All right. Herb, I am going to turn your studio off. I'll be back to
you in just a moment.
Mr. Van Doren, I think you know how to play this game. You try to get to
21 points as fast as you can. You do it by answering questions which have a
point value from 1 to 11. The high point questions are leather difficult; the
lower point questions are a little easier. The first category — and we use all of
the categories in this program — is "World War II." How" much do you think
you know about World War II. You can tell me by telling me how many points
you want from 1 to 11.
Van Doren. World War II. I'll try 9 points.
Barry. Nine points — and remember we are playing for $500 a point and the
difference in your scores.
For 9 points — Lake Ladoga- — L-a-d-o-g-a — played a large part in a particular
phase of World War II. Name the two countries whose troops opposed each
other at Lake Ladoga.
Van Doren. Let's see — I remember the German-Russian line ran from Lake
Ladoga to the Black Sea, but Lake Ladoga I guess its in Finland, so would
the answer be Finland and Russia?
Barry. It would be. and you have 9 points.
Barky. All right, Herb Stempel, you have $69,500 at stake — the first category
is "World War II." How many points do you want?
Stempel. I'll try 10.
Barry. For 10 points — the devastating Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was
only one of a group of attacks on American outposts in the Pacific. On De-
cember 7 and 8, 1941, the Philippines and three other islands were attacked.
Identify these three islands.
Stempel. Guam was the first.
Barry. That's one.
Stempel. Midway was the second.
Barry. That's two.
Stempel. And Wake was the third.
Barry. You're right — and you have 10 points.
Barry. Mr. Van Doren, you have 9 points. The second category is "Medicine."
How many points do you want?
Van Doeen. I should take 10 points, but I don't dare to do it. Let me trv
for 8.
Barry. Eight points. Here is your question. The necessity for cleanliness and
sterilization was not realized until the middle of the 19th century. What is
the name of the surgeon who introduced sterilization to the operating room?
Van Doren. Joseph Lister.
Barry. You're right — you now have 17 points.
Barry. Herb Stempel, you have 10 points, the category is "Medicine." How
many do you want to try for?
Stempel. I'll try 7.
Barry. For 7 points — Sir Alexander Fleming and Dr. Selman Waxman are
each associated with a famous and potent antibiotic — name these two anti-
biotics.
Stempel. Sir Alexander Fleming is a discoverer of penicillin and Dr. Selman
Waxman is a discoverer of streptomycin.
Barry. You're right
[Note. — Stempel attempted to add something to his statement and Barry was
talking at the same time — not clear what was said.]
Barry. Gentlemen, I caution you not to divulge your scores now — you can
hear each other. We are at the end of the second round and neither of you has
18 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
reached 21 points. You both get a chance to stop the game right here and now.
If either of you stops the game, whoever has the high score at this point will
win. Now, I caution you, don't stop the game unless you think you have the
high score. You'll win at $500 a point for the difference in your scores if you do
have the high score. Now I am going to turn your studios off, give you some
time to think about it, and I'll tell you when your time is up.
Barry. Ladies and gentlemen — both of our players have 17 points, if either
of them stops the game now there Mall be a tie and we'll have to play a brand
new game. Let's see what happens. (Click of studios being turned on.) If
either of you want to stop the game, you must tell me so right now.
Stempel. I'll stop.
Barry. Herb Stempel, I have news for you — this time you don't win — you
have 17 points — you don't lose ; don't get excited. You have 17 points — Mr.
Van Doren has 17 points ; there is a tie and we are going to have to play an-
other game. All right, now gentlemen, as you know when there is a tie the
ante goes up. In the next game we are going to play for $1,000 a point, which
means that if one of you should be lucky enough to win by a score of 21-0, you
would win $21,000 ; conversely, you could lose $21,000. I don't want to scare
you, of course; this is the maximum amount. So, if you'll just sorta slow
down for a second we'll take the 17-point draw, and we'll start the new game in
just a moment. All right?
While we are slowing down — I'm telling them to slow down — I'll have to
slow down myself — you know this slow down is a word that is very much in
vogue right now 'cause a lot of you have been slowing down without even think-
ing about it, that's cause you don't have much vitality left. This is the season
that gives me the chance to talk about a problem that faces so many of you this
time of year. Now if you have been slowing down, feeling tired and run down,
especially after a cold, flu or a sore throat or a virus, your trouble may be due
to what the doctors call iron deficiency anemia — boy, that slows you down ;
we call it by the simple term of "tired blood." Check with your doctor and to
feel stronger fast, I have a wonderful suggestion as alway.s — take Geritol.
In just 24 hours Geritol iron is in your bloodstream carrying strength and
energy to every single part of your body. Just two tablespoons of the liquid
Geritol or two of the Geritol tablets actually do contain twice the iron in a pound
of calf's liver — think about it — so, remember if tired blood is your problem —
you're feeling rundown and slowed down, especially if you have had a cold,
flu, sore throat, or a virus — take either the good-tasting liquid Geritol or the
handy Geritol tablet, and will you take them every day, believe me you'll feel
stronger and mighty fast, too, within 7 days or you'll get your money back.
[Music and applause.]
Barry (continuing). Before we go on, I would like to say that all of the
questions used on "Twenty-one" have been authenticated for their accuracy and
the order of their difficulty by the editorial board of the Encyclopedia Britan-
nica. Gentlemen, are you ready to play the next game? Mr. Van Doren?
Van Doren. Yes.
Barry. Herb?
Stempel. Y"es.
Barry. OK, fellows — remember now, for $1,000 a point, so be very careful
now. I am going to turn your studio off, Herb.
Here we go, Mr. Van Doren, in the new game, the first category — "Fashions."
How many points do you want?
Van Doren. I don't know anything about fashions — can I take 3 points?
Barry. Ye.s, you can. Is that what you want to take — 3 points?
Van Doren. Three points.
Barry. What synthetic fiber has almost completely replaced silk in women's
stockings?
Van Doren. I know that much — nylon.
Barry. Right. Now you have 3 points. That's how it is — if you take the
low-point questions you can be pretty sure that they will be relatively simple.
Herb Stempel — your $69,500 is really at stake now at $1,000 a point — the
category is "Fashions"- — how many points do you want to try for?
Stempel. Seven.
Barry. For 7 points — the flapper of the 1920's frequently wore close-fitting
helmet-shaped hats, and a little blouse with a sailor collar. What was the hat
called, and what was the blouse called?
Stempel. The blou.se was called a middy blouse.
Barry You are right. And the hat?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 19
Stempel. I know it was that weird liat that used to start over here and come
all the way around here — I just can't remember.
Barky. Take a guess? No guess?
Stempel. No guess.
Barry. Cloche — c-1-o-c-h-e — or I would have accepted bell. I am sorry you
don't score but you don't lose any points because you are at zero and we never
put our players below zero. Better luck in the next rounds.
Van Doren, you have 3 points — the category "Founding Fathers."
Van Doren. Founding Fathers — well — I'll try 9 points.
Barry. For 9 points — one of the first American statesmen to protest taxation
by the British was a man from Massachusetts who said: "Taxation without
representation is tyranny." Name him.
Van Doren. It is one of two people ■ •' : '■
Barry. Only takes one — I caution you.
Van Doren. It's either Daniel Delanoy or James Otis^ — you say he's from
Massachusetts?
Barry. Yes.
Van Doren. I think that Delaney was a Governor. Is it James Otis?
Barry. It is, and you now have 12 points.
Herb Stempel — you have no points so far. The category is "Founding
Fathers." How many points do you want?
Stempel. I'll try 11. ,
Barry. All the way — the most difficult question — here it is. The final treaty
of peace ending the American Revolution was not signed until September 3, 1783.
Where was the treaty signed and name tJiree of the four American representa-
tives who attended the conference which led to this treaty?
Stempkl. I'll take the representatives first.
Barky. All right.
Stemple. One of them was Benjamin Franklin.
Barky. That's one.
Stemple. John Jay.
Berry. Two.
Stemple. And John Adams.
Barry. Three. You've got that part.
Stemple. Now you want to know where the treaty was signed?
Barry. Yes.
Stemple. Although it was called the Treaty of Paris, it was actually signed
as Versailles.
Barry. You're right — you now have 11 points.
Gentlemen, we are at the end of the second round. Neither of you has
scored, neither of you has scored 21 points. I am going to give you a little time
now to think over whether you want to stop, and if either of you stop now who-
ever has the high score will be the winner at $1,000 a point, so think it over
very carefully and I'll tell you when your time is up.
Barry (to audience). If either player stops the game now, Mr. Van Doren,
who is one point ahead will win $1,000, and he will be the new champion, but
they don't know the other's score — let's see what happens
[Click of studios being turned on.]
If either of you want to stop the game, you must tell me so right now. No —
neither of you — all right, we are going to continue on to 21 without interruption,
but I think both of you deserve a litle bit of rest right here before we continue.
While you are taking this little bit of rest, I want to take a couple of moments
out here to give my good friend Bob Sheppard a chance to talk to you for a
moment for any of you who are suffering from common rheumatic and arthritic-
like pains. Bob
Sheppard. Thank you very much. Jack, and it's quite a moment to. Now
friends — an important new advance has been made in the relief of common
rheumatic and arthritic-like pain, due to stiff, aching joints — its Zarumin. If
common rheumatic and arthritic-like pains make it difiicult to knit, walk, or
move about^ — try Zarumin. Now Zarumin must give you more freedom from
these annoying pains or your money back. Now this is a Zarumin pill, and
it offers this new advance. It is actually a pill within a pill. And here is a
model of the pill. As you can see — Zarumin contains an outer pill that gives
fast, effective temjjorary relief — and an inner pill that brings more relief hours
later, thus giving longer lasting relief. The result — once again you are able
to do the things that pain may have been preventing. Take Zarumin as di-
20 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
rectecl— if pain persists — see your doctor. That's Zarumin at your drugstore
now.
Barry. All riffht — thanks for that announcement, Bob. Talking about an
nouncements — .Jimmy Durante is going to be on the Walter Winchell show this
Friday night — it will be a barrel of laughs — the Walter Winchell show Friday
night with Jimmy Durante. Now we are going to get on here with "Twenty-
one" — we are going to go right on to 21, Herb, and we'll turn your studio off-
you OK? All right.
Mr. Van Doren, you have 12 points, the category is "Churchill." How many
points do you want?
Van Doren. Winston Churchill?
Barry. Let me look and see myself. I assume it is all about Winston
Churchill. Yes, they are.
Van Doren. I'll go all the way, Mr. Barry. I'll try 9 points.
Barry. You want to try for 9 points?
Van Doren. Yes.
Barry. If you answer correctly you will have the required 21 points, but
you'll still have to wait until Herb Stempel gets his chance to answer. Because
we are at a crucial moment, I am going to give you some extra time to think
about it if you want it. Now let me ask you again — you wanted 9 points-
right?
Van Doren. That's right.
Barry. Here is your question. Winston Churchill wrote a series of six bril-
liant books chronicling the events leading up to and including World War II. I
want you to name any three of them. Would you like to think about it?
Van Doren. Yes — please.
Barry. I'll tell you when your time is up.
Van Doren. All right.
Barry. Your time is up — for your 9 points, which would give you 21, name any
three of the six brilliant books I mentioned a moment ago.
Van Doren. One of them. I think the first one, is "The Gathering Storm."
Barry. That is one of them.
Van Doren. Now, another one is "The Grand Alliance."
Barry. That's two. You need one more to give you 21 points.
Van Doren (Aside). I've seen the ad for those books a thousand times. I
can't have any more time, huh ?
"Triumph and Tragedy."
Barry. That's right — and you have 21. Now, Mr. Van Doren, you have 21
points which is what you needed, but, of course. Herb Stempel still has one
chance to answer — we'll see what happens. I'm going to allow you to listen
in because you've got 21, but please do not say anything. OK?
Herb Stempel, you have 11 points. The category is "Churchill." How many
points do you want to trv for?
Stempel. I'll try 10.
Barry. Which woiild give you 21. I can tell you now that your opponent has
already scored 21. If you answer this question correctly there will be another
tie and we'll have to play another game. If you miss — you'll be back to one.
There will be a difference of 20 points in your score. At .$1,000 a point you'll lose
$20,000. Take your time on this and if you need extra time please take it.
Prior to his election to Parliament in 1900, Winston Churchill was with the
British Army in three foreign countries. Name them. Do you want to think
about it? I'll tell you when your time is up.
Y'our time is np — with your 10 points which give you 21 or if you miss back
down to 1 — name the countries — the three foreign countries.
Stempel. South Africa in the Boer War.
Barry. That's one.
Stempel. India.
Barry. Is two. You need one more.
Stempel. Sudan.
Barry. You're right — we have another tie at 21. Congratulations to both of
you. We have the second tie which means that we have to play another game.
This time we are going to play for ,$1..500 a point, which means that if one of
you should win by a score of 21 to nothing, one of you could win over 830.000,
and one of you could lose over $30,000. too. So if you're all set to play. Herb?
Mr. Van Doren? All right on we go — I'm going to turn ycmr studio off the air —
remember boy, you have a lot at stake.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 21
Mr. Van Doren, the first category at $1,500 a point — Queens. How many
points do you want?
Van Doken. You mean mythical queens or real queens?
Barry. Oh, boy. I'll have to look. I think these were real queens ; yes.
Van Doren. Eleven. I'll go for 11 points.
Barry. All the way — the most difficult question. Here it is. The wife of
King Ahab was a cruel and willful woman ; she favored the idolatrous worship
of Baal and persecuted the prophets of Jehovah. What was her name, and what
country did she rule? Do you want time to think it over?
Van Doren. No.
Barry. No, when the scores are 21 I am not permited to give you the time —
you'll just have to answer.
Van Doren. You say, the wife of Ahab?
Barry. Yes.
Van Doren. I was afraid of that. My father would know that. I guess I'll
have to guess. The only person I can think of that it could be would be Jezebel.
Barry. You are right, and one more part, What country did she rule? and I'll
have to ask you to answer a little more quickly this time.
Van Doren. That must be Palestine.
Barry. It was, and you have 11 points.
Barry. Herb Stempel, the category is Queens. We're playing for $1,500 a
point. Be careful ; how many points do you want?
Stemple. I'll try 10.
Barry. For 10 points — Placed on the throne imwillingly, this girl ruled Eng-
land for 9 days before she was imprisoned and killed by the government of the
Queen who succeeded her. What was her name, and who was the Queen who
followed her to the throne?
Stempel. Her name was Lady Jane Gray.
Barry. Right.
Stempel. And she was killed or
Barry. Who was the Queen who followed her to the throne?
Stempel. And she was succeeded by Mary Tudor.
Barry. Queen Mary. You are right, that gets you 10 points.
Mr. Van Doren, you have 11 points ; the category is "OiJera." Oi^era. How
many do you want to try for?
Van Doren. Well, I'll go to 21.
Barry. A 10-point question. All right ; because you are trying for 21 you can
have some extra time if you need. Here is your question : I want you to listen
to this aria — Listen to it first [aria played].
All right. Now tell me first the name of the aria : second, the name of the
opera; and, third, who wrote it? Do you need some time to think it over?
Van Doren. Yes ; please.
Barry. All right, I'll tell you when your time is up.
(After a pause.)
Barry. Your time is up. For 10 points, which would give you 21, tell me
first the name of tlie aria.
Van Doren. Could I start with the name of the opera?
Barry. Sure; the name of the opera.
Van Doren. It is "Rigoletto."
Barry. Right. The composer?
Van Doren. Guiseppe Verdi.
Barry. Verdi is right. Now, for 21 points, the name of the aria.
Would you like to hear it again?
Van Doren. No ; I just can't think of the name.
"Cara Nome."
Barry. You are riglit, and you have 21 points. Once again you have 21, but
you still have to give Herb Stempel his chance to answer. I'm going to let you
listen, but please don't speak. Herb Stempel, you have 10 points, the category
is "Opera." How many points do you want to try for?
Stempel. Eleven.
Barry. You want to go for 21. I can tell you now your opponent already
has — and the same thing happened before — your opponent has 21 points. If you
an.swer correctly you'll have 21 points and there'll be another tie and we will
have to go to another game. If you should miss you'll be back down to zero.
Your opponent, at 21 points with $1,500 a point, will win somewhere in the
neighborhood of $32,000, which will be deducted from your $69,500. So be very
22 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
careful. Here is the question and you can have some extra time if you need it.
I want you first to listen to this aria. Listen to this [aria played].
Now, I want you to tell me first the name of the aria : second, the name of
the opera; third, who wrote it; and fourth, the name of the character in the
opera who sings it. Do you need some extra time to think about this? I'll
tell you when your time is up.
For your 11-poiut question, which could either make or break you on this,
Hei'b Stempel, first give me the name of the aria
Stempel. I'd like to try the name of the opera first.
Barry. Right. Give me the name of the opera.
Stempel. The name of the opera is "Rigoletto."
Barry. Right. The name of the composer?
Stempel. Guiseppe Verdi.
Barry. Right. The name of the character?
Stempel. Am I permitted to hear the song again, please?
Barry. Yes. I think we can play the song once again for you. May we hear
the aria again? [Aria played.]
All right, Herb, you have to tell me two more things — the name of the char-
acter and the name of the aria.
Stempel. "Cara Nome" is the name of the aria.
Barry. You're right. You need one more, the name of the character, which
would give you 21 points and we'd have another tie.
Stempel. Sung by a girl. Gilda.
Barry. You're right. You've got 21 points. Gentlemen, I am going to ask
both of you to come out. Herb Stempel, will you come out? Mr. Van Doren,
come on out here ; we've got another tie. Gentlemen, this is terriflic. We've
played three games. Can you both come back next w^eek? Can you come back,
Herb?
Stempel. Yes.
Barry. Can you come back?
Van Doren. Yes.
Barry. When you come back you'll be playing for $2,000 a point, which means
that one of you could win up to $42,000 or you could lose $42,000. So, we'll see
you next week here on "Twenty-one." Good night, Herb Stempel. Good night,
Charles Van Doren. Congratulations. Don't have time for the commercial;
no time. See you next week. Good night, everybody, good night.
Announcement. If you often can't sleep, your nerves on edge, tiT this new
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Geritol, America's No. 1 tonic. Geritol, the fast-acting high potency tonic
that helps you feel stronger fast has presented "Twenty-one."
The Chairman. Mr. Lisliman, yon may proceed.
Mr. Lishman". Mr. Stempel, does the kinescopic showing of the
television quiz show, "Twenty-one," on November 28, 1956, which you
have just seen, accurately reproduce the questions and tlie answers
that were given to and by you at that time ?
Mr. Stempell. It does, Mr. Lishman.
Mr. Lishman. Does the showing also accurately reproduce the man-
nerisms and tlie acting gestures which were used by you?
JNIr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. Does it reproduce the perspiration coming off your
brow when you were attempting to answer what were theoretically
most extremely difficult questions?
Mr. Srii^MPEL. It does, sir.
The CiiAiPtMAN. Mr. Stempel, did that reflect the condition within
the booth tliat made you ap]oarently so waiTn?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. They have an air conditioning system in
tliere and when I asked them to turn it on they gave some sort of
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 23
excuse that it would make too much noise and refused to turn it on,
thereby causing me to perspire profusely.
The CiiAiRMAx. They do have air conditioning in the booths that
they can tuiii on or otf as they desire?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. But at all times they refused to turn it on,
claiming it made too much noise and interfered with the reproduction
of the program.
The Chairman. Bemg in such a closed place without any air at
all, you would naturally perspire quite extensively ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Considering that they have very, vei-y hot lights and all the Kleig
lights and so forth which are used and the television cameras and so
forth which have to use vei-y strong lights. One would perspire.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Now, Mr. Stempel, prior to your appearance on the
show you have just seen, were you given by the producers of that
show all the questions and all the answers to those questions which
you were about to be asked on the show itself ?
Mr. Stempel. I was, sir.
Mr. Lisiiman. Were you told which questions to answer correctly
and which questions you should miss ?
Mr. Stempel. I was, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were you told how many points you should ti*y for
in every categoiy ?
]Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In the first two games that you played with Mr.
Van Doren on this show, were you told in advance tliat you would
tie with ]Mr. Van Doren and precisely what the score would be?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. In the first game I was told I would tie 17
to 17, and in the second game there would be a 21-21 tie.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Stempel, did you rehearse the questions and
answers, the length of time you should take to answer, the types of
gesture you should employ while answering the question with Mr.
Daniel Enright, producer of this show, prior to your appearance on
the show ?
Mr. Stempel. I did, sir.
Mr. Lishman. Now, Mr. Stempel, could you tell the subcommit-
tee—and start from the beginning — and state just how you came to
be a contestant on this "Twenty-one" quiz program?
jMr. Sit;mpel. Yes, sir. The show made its debut some time, I
believe, aliout September 1056, and my wife and I were sitting in
our apartment watching it. The questions did not appear overly
difficult at the time. Therefore, I said to my wife that I would write
a letter requesting that I be given an interview in order to try out
for a contestant for this particular show.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Mr. Stempel, did you write a letter to the producers
of this sliow under date of September 27, 1956, and request to be-
come a contestant ?
Mr. Stempel. I did, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I hand you a paper and ask you to identify it.
IVIr. Ste]mpel. This is my handwriting. This is the date, and this
is the letter w^hich I originally sent in, sir.
Mr. Lishman. Will you kindly read this letter in its entirety ?
24 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. It says :
September 27, 1956.
Deak Sib : I would like to apply as a contestant —
Mr. LiSHMAN. Excuse me just a minute. To Avhom was this letter
addressed ?
Mr. Stempel. It was addressed, as far as I remember, just to
Barry & Enright, Inc., 667 Madison Avenue, New York, N.Y. It
says:
Dear Sir : I would like to apply as a contestant on your program "Twenty-one"
which. I watch and enjoy every week. I am married and have a 14-nionth-old
son. I am a veteran of 8 years of Army service, part of which was spent with
Army Criminal Investigation, and have been stationed in many parts of the
world. I am aged 29 and am at present a senior at the City College of New
York. Doctors have told me and many of my friends say that I have a very
retentive, if not photographic memory, and I have thousands of odd and obscure
facts and many facets of general information at my fingertips. I have sat home
continuously watching many television shows and I answer the so great bulk of
the questions that my wife has continually urged me to try out for your fine
show. If not "Twenty-one," I would like an opportunity to appear on "Tic-Tac-
Dough," on which I am confident I could also do well. Thanking you for any
consideration which you give me in this matter, I remain.
Very sincerely,
Herbert M. Stempel,
105-15 66th Road, Flushing, N.Y.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Now, Mr. Stempel, how was that letter answered ?
Mr. Stempel. I received a communication a few days later from
the offices of Barry & Enright, requesting that I come down for an
interview, and when I arrived for an intervieAV I was immediately — I
went to the receptionist and the receptionist directed me to Miss
Gloria Anne Rader who handed me a test form consisting of about
363 questions and thereupon I was usliered into a room and asked to
start answering these questions. This was a test Avhich took approxi-
mately 314 hours.
Mr. LiSHMAN. How did you make out on that test ?
Mr. Stempel. As I was informed, I was the highest scoring con-
testant or the highest scorer who ever has participated in taking this
examination. I received 112 wrong out of 363.
Mr. Lishman". Mr. Stempel, after taking this 314-hour test, did you
meet Mr. Dan Enright?
Mr. Steinipel. Yes, sir. The next afternoon I was told by this Miss
Rader to go home and I would be contacted in about 1 week. I went
home and next afternoon received a phone call from a Mr. Howard
Merrill, who I believe at that time was the producer of tlie show. He
told me that it was of utmost urgency that I come down to the offices
of Barry & Enright that afternoon. Whereupon when I got there I
was told to go to Mr, Merrill, who thereupon ushered me into the
office of Mr. Enright.
Mr. LisHMAN. Wlien you first met Mr. Enright, did he ask j^ou
certain questions?
Mr. STE]\tPEL. He did, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you remember what those questions were?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. He wanted to know the capital, as I re-
member, of Nepal. He also wanted to know the various types of fin-
gerprint classifications, and then Jack Bany, or ]Mr. Barry, who hap-
pened to be standing in the room, asked me what the width of a foot-
ball field goal post was. There were several odd and assorted other
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 25
people in the room, namely, the public relations individuals and sev-
eral assistant producers, et cetera.
Mr. Lishman. Do yon recall the names of any of those individuals
who were present with you and Mr. Enright when he asked these
questions ?
jNIr. Stempel. I do. As far as I remeinber, there was a Robert Noah
present. I believe there was a Mr. Art Franklin, who was at that time
tlie public relations man for Bariy & Enright. If I am not mistaken,
if my memory serA^es me correctly, there was a Mr. Al Davis, also a
public relations man, present at this interview, besides Mr. Barry.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Now, Mr. Stempel, following the conclusion of that
interview with Mr. Enright, when was the next time that you saw
him ?
Mr. Stempel. I spoke to him about 2 hours, sir, and he asked me
about various facets of my background, probing into my past, et
cetera. I was told to go home and I would be further notified. The
next Tuesday evening about 8 p.m. I was babysitting
Mr. LisHMAN. Just a minute. This was a Tuesday evening. Was
that sometime in October 1956 ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. This was approximately October 16, as my
memory serves me.
Mr. LisHMAN. Why do you fix that date ?
Mr. Stempel. Because I went on the program the next evening.
Mr. LiSHMAx. You went on the program on October 17, 1956, for
the first time ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. On the "Twenty-one" program ?
Mr. Sit:mpel. That is correct, sir. , - ,.
Mr. Ltspiiman. Continue.
Mr. Stempel. I received a call from a gentleman who identified
himself as IMr. Daniel Enright and said that he had to see me in his
office upon a very urgent matter. T thereupon told him that my wife
had gone to the theater and I was babysitting that evening. He said
he had to see me desperately aud he would come out. He asked me
for directions how to get to my home. I instructed him as to how he
would get to my home. He came out al)out a half hour later. I
recognized him from having met him before. At that time when he
entered my house he was carrying an attache case. He walked into
my home. I ofi^ered him a seat, aslxcd him if he wanted a drink and
he refused it. Without further ado, he opened up the attache case
while sitting on my couch, pulled out a bunch of square cards, such as
were eventually used as category cards on "Twenty-one," and pro-
ceeded to say the category is blank-blank, whatever it happened to be,
and then would ask me questions sequentially from 1 to 11.
Mr. Lishman. In other words, he was giving you a rehearsal or a
dry run of the format of the "Twenty-one" program ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir; he was. I managed to answer the bulk of
the questions and those which I did not know, he helped me on, and
supiDlied the answers. After having done this, he very, very bluntly
sat back and said with a smile, "How would you like to win $25,000?'"
I said to him, I was sort of taken aback, and I said, "^Ylio wouldn't?"
Mr. Lishman. May I interrupt you there. At the time you made
your application to appear as a contestant, did you believe that that
show was fixed ?
26 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Stempel. I did not, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Had yon witnessed perfoniiances of that show ?
Mr. Stempel. I made the application to the best of my Imowledge
on the first performance of the sliow. I believe I watched the premier,
as a matter of fact.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Yon honestly believed that it represented a contest of
knowledge?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Now, continue with your second meeting, at your
home, with Mr. Enright.
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. I said; "Who wouldn't?" He said some-
thing to the equivalent, "Play ball with me, kid, and you will do it,"
or words to that effect. Then he explained to me that I had been
selected to go on the air as a contestant that very next evening. He
was rehearsing me. The questions I would take were the nine and the
nine, as I remember, in a certain category. I would end up at 18 points.
Whereupon I would stop the game. Then we talked for a while about
things I don't remember. Then he asked me, incidentally, where my
wardrobe was, and I told him. He went and checked all my suits and
selected a blue double breasted ill-fitting suit which had belonged to
my deceased father-in-law, which I was intending to give to charity.
Then he asked to look at my shirts. I went to the chest which I have
and sliowed him my shirts. He said essentially that a blue shirt would
be worn for television, whereupon he picked out a frayed collar blue
shirt. He also instructed me to wear a wristwatch which ticked away
like an alarm clock. It was a very cheap $6 wristwatch. He also
instructed me that I had to get what is known, as I understand it,
a marine type white- wall haircut. This was the way I had to dress up.
He told me also that I was to report to his office at 1 :30 the follow-
ing afternoon, which I did,
Mr. LisiiMAN. Mr. Stempel, may I interrupt ? While all this pro-
cedure was going on with Mr. Enright advising you as to your ward-
robe, haircut, wristwatch and so on, what were you doing ? Wliat were
your emotions as this was going on ?
Mr. Stempel. I had been a poor boy all my life, and I was sort of
overjoyed, and I took it for granted this was the way things were run
on these programs. At first I had not realized when I first applied
but then I was sort of taken aback. I was stunned. I didn't know
what to say, Mr. Lishman.
Mr. Ltshman. Did you tell Mr. Enright you would not do it?
Mr. Stempel. No, sir. I told him I would do it.
Mr. LiSHMAisr. You told him you would?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. Then how did this meeting conclude?
Mr. Stempel. It concluded when my wife walked in. I introduced
Mr. Enright. My wife remarked, after his having left, that he was a
"pretty sharp dresser." I told her exactly what the setup was in this
particular thing. I was happy that I would have a chance to make a
little bit of money.
Mr. Lishman. On that particular evening in your apartment in
Forest Hills, when Mr. Enright was there, did he give you any cate-
gories and answers that were used on the following evening's program
in which you appeared?
J
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 27
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. As I remarked before, I don't remember
the exact questions, but I know, as I remember it, it was a 9, and
9, and I was told to stop at 18. That was exactly the way I played
the game. I reported to his office as instructed the next afternoon
at 1:30.
Mr. LisHMAN. At your apartment, do you remember about how
many categories of questions which later appeared on the show were
gone over with you by Mr. Enright ?
Mr. Stempel. He covered quite a few categories, sir. I don't re-
member the exact number, but it may have been 10 or 12 or 14. There
were quite a few questions asked that evening. Later on he simplified
the procedure.
Mr. LisHMAN. x\t that meeting did Mr. Enright tell you what cate-
gories to select when you appeared on the show as a contestant ?
Mr. Stempel. He did, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And he gave you the answers to the questions that
would be asked under that category ?
Mr. Stempel. He did, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. With reference to the wardrobe situation, did he
ask you to wear that ill-fitting suit and to appear with the haircut
and the wristwatch at the show so that you would be televised in that
condition ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir, he did. He told me that it was essential
that I wear this particular get-up.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you do that ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir, I did, and for 6 weeks continuing.
Mr. LiSHMAN. The next day prior to the show in the evening, did
you have another meeting with the producers ?
Mr. Stempel. I did, sir. About approximately 1 :30 in the after-
noon at the offices of Barry & Enright, in Mr. Enright's office.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Can you tell us who was present at this meeting
prior to the performance on the 17th ?
Mr. Stempel. Only Mr. Enright. As a matter of fact, if there were
anybody else in the office, they subsequently got up and walked out
of the office. In fact, all my transactions with Mr. Enright were done
in private.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you ever have any transactions with Mr. Barry?
Mr. Stempel. Never. As a matter of fact, there was one particular
incident whicli I do remember in which I was rehearsing questions
with Mr. Enright, and we had se^•e]•al category cards out. Mr. Barry
happened to poke his head in the door, and Mr. Enright shoved the
cards into the drawer. I looked at him very, very bluntly and I said,
"Dan, doesn't Jack know about this," or Mr. Barry. He said, "Mind
your owm business and pay attention to your lessons," or words to
that effect.
JNIr. LiSHMAN. Now, Mr. Stempel, at this meeting with Mr. Enright
prior to the showing on the 17th, did Mr. Enright again give you the
categories and answers to questions which would be asked you in the
evening?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. In fact, this was more specific in that I was
told to write this down on a piece of paper.
Mr. Ltshman. Were you told to write it down on a piece of paper ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes. He also told me at this time exactly how the
questions were to be answered. In other words, I was to write down
28 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
something like "Take 5 seconds pause, stutter, say nine points." In
other words, everything was explicit. He showed me how to bite my
lip to show extreme tension. How to mop my brow. He told me
specifically not to smear my brow, but rather to pat for optimum
effect, as that created a more tense atmosphere. He told me how to
breathe heavily into the microphone and sigh, such as this [witness
sighs]. He taught me how to stutter and say in a very plaintive
voice, "I will take nine, nine points." He also told me never to call
Mr. Barry, Jack, but be very diffident, and call him Mr. Barry. That
is the only way I was ever supposed to address him on television,
whereas all the other contestants addressed him as Jack. As a matter
of fact, I might say, apropos of this whole thing, that this was the
hardest part of the show. Eemembering the questions was quite easy,
but the actual stage directions were the most difficult things because
everything had to be done exactly. Woe betide you if you did not do
it as had been planned by Mr. Enright.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Now, Mr. Stempel, do you recall your playing the
games on the 21 program on the evening of October 17?
Mr. Stempel. I do, sir. I reported to Studio 6-B, and I was made
up and I stood by. There was a particular dressing room that was
assigned to me. After having been madeup, Mr. Enright came around
to check on me, make sure I had all the stage directions and all the
other things down pat. The number of points to play and so forth. I
was also introduced to my first opponent which really was not accord-
ing to the way the studio setup was supposed to have been done. This
was a gentleman, a CPA as I remember, by the name of IMaurice
Pelubet. I waited approximately 20 minutes that evening when two
other contestants played to a zero-zero tie after having gone five
rounds. They suddenly evoked a new rule in the game whereby they
said after five rounds, if contestants had gone to zero-zero, they would
cancel the game, and the game would be finished and they would go
off the air. They gave them a hundred dollars consolation prize.
Finally I got on against Mr. Pelubet. I played the game as in-
structed, took my 9-9, found out I won 18 to nothing and $9,000 in 3
or 4 minutes.
Mr. LiSHMAisr. How many weeks were you on this program ?
Mr. Stempel. Eight weeks, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN". Did Mr. Enright furnish you with assistance with
respect to the questions that were asked you on each of these eight
times ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. Every single time we would have a meeting
on Tuesday afternoon at approximately 1 :30.
Mr. LisHMAN. What day did the program appear ?
Mr. Stempel. At that time Wednesday evening at 10 :30 p.m.
]Mr. LisTiMAx. Your meetings with Mr. Enright were on the pre-
ceding Tuesday ?
Mr. Stempel. On Tuesday, sir, to get the instructions and tlien on
Wednesday to make a sort of dress rehearsal to make sure that every-
thing was done correctly.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Did you ever have any dealings with Mr. Freedman?
Mr. Steivipel. Just as a matter of receiving continuity cards from
him. He was the man who furnished me the dialog cards, this reparte
which was supposed to have been spontaneous. Aside from that, no
other dealings ; just to say hello, and so forth. That is all.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 29
]Mr. LiSHMAN. In rehearsing in advance for these programs, were
these rehearsals conducted in tlie same routine manner eacli time?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Or on any occasion was there something unusual
which happened that you could now remember ?
Mr. Stempel. After about the sixth week or so, I decided that I was
getting tired of wearing the same old suit. I put on a new single-
breasted suit and a new watch and allowed my hair to grow a different
way. Whereupon Mr. Enright, it was either the seventh or eighth
week, made some remark about "You are not paying attention to your
lessons, you are not cooperating," or words to that effect. In other
words, I was not playing the game. There was one time when my wife
came down dressed in a Persian lamb coat and she was very bruskly
tiustled out of the theater because she was not supposed to be seen.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Stempel, who was present at these regular re-
hearsal meetings that you had with Mr. Enright besides yourself?
Mr. Stempel. Always Mr. Enright. He operated alone every time,
rhere was never anybody else present, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was it explained to you that the producers were
brying to build up in the public mind a certain image projection?
Mr. Stempel. Yes. I was supposed to be a penniless ex-GI, sort of
working my way through college.
Mr. LisHMAN. What are the facts about this, and what happened
as a result of this projection of your image ?
Mr. Stempel. I don't quite understand your question, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. As I understand it, you were supposed to be projected
as a penniless ex-GI stiTiggling to get an education, and that the win-
nings that you were going to get here were for that purpose.
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, after I went off the
program the continuity writer made a speech, such as, "I am going to
buy some clothing for my wife," and so on and so forth.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What happened as a result of that ?
Mr. Stempel. I don't quite understand the question.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you have any public reaction to these state-
ments ?
Mr. Stempel. Somehow or other there appeared an article in
Leonard Lyons' column that in reality my wife was the daughter of
quite a wealthy pereon, and this sort of evoked a lot of anger on the
part of Mr. Enright because he was wondering how this information
got out.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Is it true ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, it is, sir.
The Chairman. Were you in school ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir; I was a senior at the City College of New
York.
The Chairman. Were you using this to obtain financial resources
for your educational program ?
Mr. Stempel. This is a municipal college, sir. Mainly I was using
this to obtain a sort of financial independence from my in-laws.
The Chairman. For your in-laws ?
Mr. Stempel. From my in-laws, sir.
The Chairman. A commendable trait, I should say.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Stempel, in the instructions you were receiving
from Mr. Enright, were you told that ties in the game were important
52294— 60— pt. 1 3
1
30 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
in order to build up, let us say, tension and more attentive public in-
terest in the program ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. Also that Mr. Enright explained to me that
he received approximately $10,000 a week — in fact, I think the figure
quoted was $1,000 a week — from Pharmaceuticals, Inc., as prize
money, and that he had to arrange the games in such a way as to not
go over the budget, because any moneys which were expended over
$10,000 weekly came out of his pocket, and if he could keep the budget
down, he made a little gravy, to use the phrase.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Stempel, did you sign any agreement respecting
your winnings on this program ?
Mr. Stempel. I did, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you remember what that agreement contained?
Mr. Stempel. I remember it just about verbatim, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. About what time did you sign such an agreement?
Mr. Stempel. About the fifth week of my winnings, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you remember what was contained in that agree-
ment ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. This was a paper that was thrust upon me
which was allegedly initiated on my part which just about verbatim
said the following. This w^as addressed to Mr. Enright and said as
follows :
"Dear Sir : In order to protect my winnings, I hereby agree to the
following settlement. On sums between $40,000 and $60,000, I will
take $40,000. On sums between $60,000 and $80,000, I will take
$50,000. On sums between $80,000 and $100,000, I will take $60,000.''
I believe in sums over $100,000 I will take $60,000 also, with the pro-
viso that you make good to me all sums up to $40,000.
This was supposed to have been signed by me. It was put very
bluntly to me that if I did not sign, I would suddenly find myself a
loser.
Mr, LiSHMAN. Was the tenor of this agreement and its provisions,
let us say, if you won $100,000 ostensibly, in reality you would only get
approximately $60,000 ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, this letter was not
witnessed nor notarized by anybody. It was an agreement between
Mr. Enright and myself.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Do you have a copy of that agreement ?
Mr. Stempel. No, sir. It was a one copy agreement which suddenly
conveniently disappeared.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You signed it and returned it to Mr. Enright ?
Mr. Stempel. I did, sir. It was neither witnessed nor notarized, as
I stated before.
jNIr. LiSHMAN. What date did you leave the program ?
Mr. Stempel. I left the program on December 5, 1956.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you remember that preceding your loss you had a
meeting with Mr. Enright ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisnMAN. What happened at that meeting?
]\Ir. Stempel. Is this the day I lost, sir? Is that what you are
talking about?
]Mr. IRISHMAN. When you were told that you would lose. Let us.
fix tlie date when you were told you would lose.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 31
Mr. Stempel. Tliis would be on the 4th of December 1956. Tliis
was the day before. Tlie usual Tuesday meeting. I arrived at Mr.
Enright's office, and suddenly on the couch in his office found an
enormous pile of records which he very, very bluntly told me were
mementos from the program of all the programs I had been on. In
other words, all recordings of all the programs. After his assistants
had left, I was told very bluntly, as he walked over to the blackboard,
that I had done very well for the show, reached a certain plateau, and
he clrew^ a cluilk mark, sort of going up the blackboard and then
leveled it of!', but said, "Now we find we are sort of at a plateau. We
have to find a neAV champion. That is why you are going to have to
go." Then he outlined the program for the evening, telling me I
would miss on a question pertaining to what picture won the Academy
Award in 1955, and the answer was "Marty," a picture I had seen
three times, and 1 Avas also in the last question (:old to miss the last part
of a three-part question dealing with the topic I had discussed in
American history course 2 days before.
Mr. LisHMAN. Was there a reason advanced to you as to why you
should miss these apparently simple and easy questions?
Mr. Stempel. This was supposed to be the twist of the "Twenty-
one" program. In other words, the omniscient genius was supposed to
know all the hard answers, but miss on the easy ones, because the ]:)iib-
lic would figure one of two things. Eitlier in his very, very erudite
studies he had either glossed over this and missed it, or it was intended
as a sop to the public at large to make them say, "See, I knew the
answer to this and the great genius, so and so, didn't." That is alK>ut
the effect of it.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were you told to whom to lose ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisiiMAN. 'Who.
Mr. Stempel. Charles Van Doren, sir.
Mr. Lisiiman. Did you lose as you were scheduled to lose?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. I lost by the score of 18 to 10 in the fifth
game of our series when we played. It w'as two games after the kine-
scope that we saw.
Mr. LiSHMAN. flow much did you receive in total as your
wiiniino;s?
Mr. Stempel. $49,500, sir.
Mr. LisiFMAN. This was more than the agreement called for?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. He told me he was giving me a bonus, us
he put it, because of my great histrionics.
Mr. LisiiMAN. During the time you were on the program did there
come a time when you received an advance?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. There was a time. I don't remember the
exact date. Wlien I could have conceival)ly, according to the rules
of the game, lost every single penny which 1 had, and Mr. Enright
advanced me $18,500.
Mr. LisjiMAN. How much ?
Mr. Stempel. $18,500.
Mr. LisHMAN. Do you recall what your winnings were at that
time?
ISIr. Stejupel. T believe it may have been $(>. I am not positive,
sir. It may have been $50, $G9. I am not positive, $50, $69.
32 ESYESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LiSHMAN. I will show you some papers and ask you if they
refresh your recollection on the testimony you have just given ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. These are two checks that I received, one
on the 17th of November for $8,500.
Mr. LiSHMAN. The l7th of November of what year ?
Mr. Stempel. 1956, for $8,500. This was an advance.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Drawn by whom ?
Mr. Stempel. Drawn on DOJO, Inc., which is the incorporated
name for "Twenty-one," and signed by Daniel Enright, and made out
to me. The other is an advance on the 29th of November 1956, for
$10,000. Also drawn on DOJO, Inc., the corporate name for
"Twenty-one," signed by Daniel Enright.
Mr. LiSHMAN. These checks were given to you as advances before
you had gone otf the show ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You could have lost all the money under the rules
of the game?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir; conceivably it was very possible for me to
have been involved in these numerous ties and lose every cent.
jMr. LiSHMAN. The only way in which these people could be sure
of this thing was to fix it so you would come up with at least enough
to cover this advance ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have photostatic re-
productions of these two checks introduced in the record.
The Chairman. AVithout objection they will be mcluded in the
record.
(Photostatic reproductions of the two checks referred to follow:)
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
33
34
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
^J»lMU»aM«yJ^K'Owncwt^ MWKtg/nstsmeiL^ ^-t
V t"l fe-iK'
I F
'■■ o
„"C1 A I
i^ifeiiagfeasflaiafimiHiitfiMr Miimii»i>iti<
II>n^ESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 35
The Chairman. Wliat was the total advancement ?
Mr. Stempel. $18,500.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were any inducements given to you to lose to Mr.
Van Doren?
Mr, Stempel. Yes, sir. I was told that I would get a chance to
appear on the "Steve Allen Show." I was told that I was going to get
a job in the Barry & Enright organization as some sort of research
consultant for $250 a week, and other benefits to follow which were not
specifically named.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Now, Mr. Stempel, do you have any personal direct
knowledge that any of the other contestants on "Twenty-one" ever
received assistance in advance of their appearance on the program ?
Mr. Stempel. I have no personal direct knowledge.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you have any other kind of knowledge relating
to this situation ?
Mr. Stempel. I can only say that inferentially there must have been
help given in that, according to the kinescope which we witnessed, I
was told by Mr. Enright in advance exactly what the scores would be
in every single game. He told me in the first game the score would be
17-17. He told me in the second game the score would be 21-21. He
told me in the third game — I said ""Wliat happens to the third game" —
he said, "You will be pleasantly surprised because there was another
21-21 tie." This is the only knowledge I have of the fact that ap-
parently Mr. Enright — and this is only a supposition, of course, not
by direct knowledge — had to know what the other contestant was doing
in order to name what the scores would be in advance.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Now, Mr. Stempel, what was the date of the last pro-
gram on wliich you appeared ?
Mr. Stempel. December 5, 1956, sir.
Mr, LiSHMAN. Prior to that, you were told what acting mannerisms
to employ in losing gracefully ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir
Mr, LiSHMAN. Do you remember what the questions were and the
answers ?
Mr, Stempel. On the night I lost, sir ?
Mr. LiSHMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stempel. I believe that one of the questions, as I remember — I
know that the last question on which I lost, or rather the first question
of the last game had to do with American newspapers. That was the
one about William Allen A^^iite, the Emporia Gazette, and "Wliat Is
the Matter With Kansas?" and I was supposed to miss the third part
which I did. The second one had to do with Queens of England, or
"Queens," as I remember the category. Both Van Doren and I took
a 10-point question and answered it successfully.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you know from your own personal knowledge
the answers to the question that you missed ?
Mr. Stempel. I most certainly did, sir.
Mr. LisTiiNiAN. Was this the same show on which you were asked
the question about "Marty," the moving picture ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir; it was. That was in the first game of the
evening, and ""Wliat Is the Matter With Kansas?" was the second
game of the evening.
36 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LiSHMAN. There is no doubt you could have answered both of
those questions correctly and without any coaching whatever?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir ; that is correct.
Mr. LisiiMAN. During the time that you were appearing on the pro-
gram, did you have occasion to tell other persons in advance what your
score would be on a particular evening ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. And what your answers would be to certain
questions ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. As I remember, I told quite a few people.
Mr. LiSHMAiSr. Could you name some of the people to whom you
gave this advance information as to what was gomg to happen on
this contest of knowledge ?
Mr. Stempel. I told it to a friend of mine by the name of Bertram
Hacken. I told it to my physician. Dr. Nathan Brody. I believe I
told the question and answer or something like that to a friend of
mine, Richard Janofsky. I told my maid, who was employed for me,
the night I was going to lose, as I walked out of the house, that T was
going to lose. I told several other people. I told my druggist, as a
matter of fact, the entire game one time, who was going to get how
many points, the amount of points I was going to take on each ques-
tion, what the questions were, and what the answers were. He was
very pleasantly surprised. As usual. I also told my barber. My
barber told his daughter and the daughter saw that everything came
to pass just as I had told them.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you also tell Mr. Alfred Davis ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir; I did. He was a public relations man.
Mr. LisHMAN. How many times did you tell Mr. Davis in advance?
Mr. Stempel. Several times.
Mr. Lishman. Do you recall the specific instances when you told
Mr. Davis?
Mr. Stempel. The main time I remember telling him was the night
I was about to lose. I was very, very upset about it. In fact, I offered
to refund Mr. Enright some of his money to let me play the game hon-
estly, because it had become a college fight. In other words, one
school versus another, and they had played it up as such.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did Mr. Enright refuse to let you play an honest
game?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, he did. He told me for the good of the show
that I had to go.
The Chatrmatst. Did I understand you to say, Mr. Stempel, that
you participated with Mr. Van Doren from October 17 or earlier
until December 4 ?
Mr. Stempel. No, sir. It was only the last 2 weeks. In other
words, I believe it was on November 27, if I am not mistaken, and
December 5. The last 2 weeks, the seventh and eighth weeks of my
participation.
The Chairmat^. Do I understand you were told that that was the
evening you were going to lose, and asrain you claim that you knew the
answers and could have answered the questions on which you gave
the wrong answers and lost?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, subsequently I would
like to bring up something. When my attorney and I were in the
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 37
office of Barry & Enriglit, in fact speaking to Mr. Enright about tliis
job he had promised me, Mr. Enright said to me, "You didn't miss
the question because I told you to. You missed it because you didn't
know the answer." Tliis was not true because I did know the answer.
I had seen the picture two nights before, as I have remarked before.
The Chairman. Very welL You may proceed.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Chairman, I think at this time the witness has
testified generally as to what went on on the show on December 5
when he lost, and I think it would be material to our investigation
that we have a kinescopic showing of a portion of that show so we
can now see what the witness has just testified to is completely ac-
curate. Again I would like to have the privilege of having placed
in the record a transcript of the tape recording of the questions and
answers which will be supplied to the reporter at a later time.
The Chairman. Without objection, it will be mcluded in the
record.
(Showing of kinescope.)
(Transcript of the sound track follows :)
Barry. Good evening. I'm Jack Barry. Tonight here on "Twenty-one" Her-
bert Stempel, our 29-year-oIcl GI college student, can win $111,500, the highest
amount of money ever to be won on television. But to do this he's risking much
of the money he has won thus far. So right now let's meet our first two players,
as Geritol, America's No. 1 tonic, presents "Twenty-one."
Announcer. From New York City, Mr. Charles Van Doren, and, returning
with $69,500 from Forest Hills, N.Y., Mr. Herbert Stempel.
Barry. Gentlemen, welcome back to "Twenty-one." Your two smiling faces
here tonight after that hectic battle you were involved in last week — I'm sure
we're in for tremendous excitement here on the program. How are you tonight,
Mr. Van Doren?
Van Doren. I'm all right.
Barry. You're OK? And, Herb, you've got your $69,500 riding here at stake.
How do you feel. OK?
Stempel. I'm fine, thank you.
Barry. Good enough. Herb, there's been some question raised as to whether
or not you knew, before going into this game, that should there be tie games
occur as they have, that so much more of your money would be risked — I mean,
for instance, right now we're going to be playing for $2,000 a point. Were you
aware that this would, would happen, could happen?
Stempel. Sure I was, Mr. Barry. I knew it all along since I've been in the
game to start with, and as a matter of fact I have played several tied games,
one with Dr. Carballo and
Barry. That's right, you did
Stempel. And also with Miss — Miss Strong
Barry. Uh-huh.
Stemple. And I know I'm putting an awful lot of money on the line. I'm
certainly risking an awful lot of money, but by the same token I could win a
lot of money, too, which is also very important.
Barry. Yes, indeed you can. You can win or lose a lot. All I wanted to
make clear was that you knew certainly that this could possibly happen. You
had no way to know that it would happen, but that it could possibly happen,
as it did with Dr. Carballo?
Stempel. That is right, Mr. Barry.
Barry. Right, Herb, and I hope we've cleared that up for some of the viewers
who have wondered about it, and if you two fellows are ready, may I caution
you once again that tonight it'll be the biggest game we've ever played here on
the program — $2,000 a point. Be very, very careful before you answer — take
your time, and the very, very best of luck to both of you.
Neither player inside the studios can hear anything until I turn their studios
on with switches which I control right here in front of me, nor can they see
anybody in the television studio audience because of the way the lights are con-
structed. Can you hear me, Mr. Van Doren?
Van Doren. Yes, I can.
38 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Barry. Very good ; I have your studio on. Your studio's on, Herb. Can you
hear me?
Stempel. Yes, I can.
Barry. All right. Now we're going to go on trying to get 21 — I'll be back
to you in just a moment, Herb.
Now, Mr. Van Doren, I guess you know pretty well from last week how to
play this game — ^you gotta try to score 21 points, you do it by answering questions
that have a point value from 1 to 11. The high point questions are much more
difficult than the lower point questions, and you'll tell me how much you know
about the category by grading yourself from 1 to 11. The first category, the
Civil War. How much do you know about it — you tell us from 1 to 11.
Van Doren. That's an awful big subject. Uh, I'll try for 8 points.
Barry. For 8 points, because of a disagreement with his commanding general,
Ulysses Grant was virtually placed under arrest for a brief time early in 1862.
Who was the commanding general of the Union Army at that time?
Van Doren. Oh, yes, uh — I know his name. Halleck, General H. W. Halleck.
Barry. You're right — you have 8 points. Herb Stempel, $69,500 is at stake, at
$2,000 a point. Of course the winner will get the difference at the end of this
match in your scores at $2,000 a point. The category is the Civil War. How
many points do you want.
Stempel. I'll try 9.
Barry. For 9 points, because he did not sanction seccession, this man was the
only southerner who refused to leave the United States Senate when his State
seceded from the Union in June of 1861. Name him and the State he repre-
sented.
Stempel. Andrew Johnson of Tennessee.
Barry. You're right — you have 9 points. Mr. Van Doren, you have 8 points.
The category is boxing. How many points do you want, from 1 to 11.
Van Doren. I'm not sure I should do this — uh, I'll try for nine points.
Barry. For 9 points, name the three heavyweight champions immediately pre-
ceding Joe Louis.
Van Doren. Well, uh, Louis defeated James J. Braddock, and before Braddock
was Max Baer, and before Baer was either Max Schmeling or Primo Camera.
Let's see — uh — I believe it's Schmeling. Was it Schmeling?
Barry. No, I'm sorry, it was Primo Camera. I'm sorry, you lose 9 points.
That's — you don't go below zero, we put you back to zero, and better luck on th&
next round.
Herb Stempel, you have 9 points, the category is boxing. How many do you
want to try for?
Stempel. Seven.
Barry. For 7 points, one of the most famous promoters in boxing history, the
man who promoted the first million dollar gate. Is largely responsible for prize
fights being staged out of doors. Name this man.
Stempel. Tex Rickard.
Barry. Right. You now have 16 points. Gentlemen, I want to caution
you not to speak now because this is the one point when you can be heard.
This is the spot you know before we've reached 21 when you get a chance
to stop the game. If either of you want to stop the game you can do so,
but I caution you not to do it, particularly if at $2,000 a point, unless you
really think you are leading at this point. If either of you stops the game
whoever has the higher score at this point will win $2,000 a point for the
difference in your scores. If neither of you wanta stop, we'll then continue
on to 21. I'm going to give you some time to think it over. [Click of studios
being turned off.]
If either player stops the game now Herb Stempel. who is leading by 16
points, at $2,000 a point, will win $82,000 more, bringing him up to $101,500.
But he doesn't know it. because they do not know each other's scores. Let's
see what happens. FClick of studios being turned on.]
If either of you want to stop the game, you must tell me so right now. No —
neither of you? Well, gentlemen, I'm ah — I think I need a breather more
than you do, so suppose we take time out here for just a second while I talk
to the people and then we'll continue on with our game of "Twenty-one." Please
don't talk because your studios are both on the air.
Oh, questions, questions — I guess I've asked thousands of questions at one
time or another here on television. I haven't got enough used to it yet, but
there is one simple question that I think almost everybody asks everybody else —
I tliink you know the question — what's the weather gonna be like? Well, from
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 39
the reports that we have had from all around the country and especially right
here in New York — it's been hot and cold and unseasonable and it looks like
we're really in for a tough, rough winter. And I think you know what that
means, too — it means plenty of sickness. So will you remember, if you feel
tired and run down and especially after a cold, flu, sore throat or a virus,
you may suffer from iron deficiency anemia — that's a very fancy term for what
we call tired blood. Tired blood. You check with your doctor, and to feel
stronger fast — take Geritol. In just 24 hours Geritol iron is in your blood-
stream, carrying strength and energy to every part of your body. .Just two
tablespoons of liquid Geritol or two of the Geritol tablets contain twice the
iron in a pound of calves liver. So remember, if tired blood is your prob-
lem, especially in this rough weather after those colds or flu or sore throat
or a virus, take either the good-tasting liquid Geritol, or the handy Geritol
tablets and take it every day. Believe me, you'll feel stronger fast — within
7 days — or you get your money back.
All right, gentlemen, we're going on now to "Twenty-one." Herb, I'll be back
to you in just a moment. Mr. Van Doren, you have no points at the present.
The category is "movies and movie stars." How many points do you want from
1 to 11 V
Van Doken. I think I should take about 7, but I just can't risk it — uh, I'll
try for 10 points.
Barry. For 10 points, one of the tough questions — in 1954 the Oscar for the
best supporting actress, best director, and best story and screenplay writer
all went to people who had worked in the film "On the Waterfront." Name
these people.
Van Doren, Well, the director was Elia Kazan.
Barry. That's right.
Van Doren. And the writer was ah — ah — Schulberg.
Barry. Right.
Van Doren. Budd Schulberg.
Barry. And the best supporting actress?
Van Doren. Uh, well, the only woman I can remember in that picture was
the one who played opposite Brando, but I would have thought that she would
have got the best actress award. Rut if she's the only one I can remember — let's
see — she was that lovely frail girl — Eva Saint — uh, Eva Marie Saint.
Bahry. Right. You have 10 points. Herb Stempel, you have 16 points. The
category is movies and movie stars. How many points do you want to try for,
from 1 to 11?
Stempel. I'll try 5.
Barry. Which would give you 21 points if you guess this right and you will be
the winner again. Because this is a critical moment, if you need some extra
time you can have it. You asked — let me make sure again, you asked for 5
points. All right. What motion picture won the Academy Award for 19.55? Do
you need some extra time to think about it?
Stempel. Ah — I sure do.
Barry. I'll tell you when your time is up.
Your time is up, Herb Stempel. For 5 points which would give you 21, what
motion picture won the Academy Award for 1955?
Stempel (mumbling). I don't remember. I don't remember.
Barry. You don't want to take a guess at it? If not I'll have to call it wrong,
Herb.
Stempel. "On the Waterfront"?
Barry. No, I'm sorry, the answer is "Marty." "Marty" — you lose 5 points
which puts you back down to 11 — better luck on the next round.
Mr. Van Doren, you have 10 points. The category— explorers, explorers. How
many points do you want to try for?
Van Doren. I'm going to go all the way to 21 — I mean, I mean try for 11
points.
Barry. You want to try to get to 21 by 11 — by answering an 11-point question?
Van Doren. That's right.
Barry. All right. If you answer this you will have 21, but you'll still have
to wait for Herb Stempel to get another crack at it, and you can have some
extra time if you need it. Here is your question — Pizarro (spelling) P-i-
z-a-r-r-o^ — was an early Spanish explorer who discovered and conquered an ad-
vance civilization. Tell us the civilization he discovered, the country this
civilization was in, and the leader of the civilization at the time of the conquest.
Would you like time to think it over? ....
40 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Van Doren. As much as you can spare.
Barry. I'll tell you when your time is up.
Your time is up. Tell us the civilization he discovered, first of all, if you can,
or take it any other waj you want.
Van Dohen. Pizarro discovered the Incas.
Barry. Right.
Van Doren. And the Incas lived in Peru.
Barry. You're right. And the leader of the civilization, which would give
you 21 points if you get this right.
Van Doren : (mumbling) — but he had a brother, Huascar — the man who had
a room full of gold — I guess, I guess that Atahaulpa was the leader of the Incas
at the time of the conquest.
Barry. That's your answer — ^Atahaulpa?
Van Doren. That's right.
Barry. Then you score 21 points ! Mr. Van Doren, yon have the desired num-
ber of points — 21 — but Herb Stempel still has to get a chance at it — now, I'm
going to allow you to listen in, so please do not speak. Herb Stempel. you have
11 points. The category — "Explorers". How many points do you want to try
for, from 1 to 11 ?
Stempel. I'll try 10.
Barry. You're gonna try to go to 21?
Stempel. Yes.
Barry. I can tell you now that your opponent has already scored 21 points.
If you answer this next question correctly, you'll have 21 and we'll have another
tie, which means we'll have to play another game at $2,500 a point. If
you miss, of course, he will win, and I'm not even going to bother to figure it
up 'cause it's quite gigantic. Here is your question and take your time. You
c-an have some extra time if you need it. Four great voyages were made by
Christopher Columbus, and many different places were among his discoveries.
Tell us on which voyage, the first, second, third, or fourth, each of the following
places was discovered : the Virgin Islands, Martinino or Santa Lucia, Hispaniola
or Haiti and South America. Do you need some time to think this over. Herb
Stempel?
Stempel. I sure do.
Barry. I'll tell you when your time is up.
Your time is up Herb — for 10 points which will either give yon 21 or put you
l>ack down to about 1 point. TJh, four great voyages were made by Columbus,
different places ^\•ere among his discoveries, tell us on which voyage, the first,
second, third, or fourth, each of the following places was discovered. Want to
take a crack at the Virgin Islands?
Stempel. Uh, I'll try, uh, Hispaniola.
Barry. All right.
Stempel. That was on the first voyage.
Barry. You're right.
Stempel. South America was on the third voyage.
Barry. That's right for the second part.
Stempel. Now what are the other two now?
Barry. Martinino or Santa Lucia and the Virgin Islands.
Stempel. Martinino is on the fourth voyage.
Barry. That is right — and the Virgin Islands?
Stempel. Therefore the Virgin Islands must be the second.
Barry. You're right, and yon have 21 points.
Gentlemen — gentlem.en — it happened — it happened again. You both have 21
points ; there is a tie. As you know, in the case of a tie we play another game,
the stakes go up — we're gonna play in just a moment for $2,.500 a point. I can't
even figure out how much this is, but one of you could win either $50,000 or
somewhere around there, win or lose, and I think at this point — first of all I
want to say congratulations to both of yon — I don't care who wins or who
loses — you guys really know your onions. I want to — they really do — we're
going to, we're going to take a moment out here now for you to settle down to
get into this which will be an even bigger game than the other and while you
relax a bit. and we all do, I'm going to call on my good friend Bob Sheppard
with some important and helpful news for anyone who is suffering from com-
mon rheumatic- and arthritic-like pains. Bob.
Siteppard. Thank you very much, Jack. Now friends, an important new ad-
vance has been made in the relief of common rheumatic- and arthritic-like paina
due to stiff, aching joints. It's Zarumin. If common rheumatic- and arthritic-
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 41
like pains mal^e it difficult to sew, walk, or move about, try Zarumin, Zarumin
must give you more freedom from these aunoying pains or your money back.
Now this is a Zarumin pill. And it offers this new advance. It is actually a
pill within a pill. And over here is a model of the pill. As you can see, Zarumin
contains an outer pill that gives fast, effective temporary relief, and an inner pill
that brings more relief hours later, thus giving longer lasting relief. The result :
Once again you are able to do the things that pain may have been preventing.
Take Zarumin as directed — if pain persists, see your doctor. That's Zarumin
at your drug store — now.
Bakby. Before we go on I would like to say that all of the questions that are
used on "Twenty-one" have been authenticated for their accuracy and the order
of their difficulty by the editorial board of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Fel-
lows, you all set? Mr. Van Doren, Herb Stempel, $2,500 a point. Take it easy
on this — be very careful. I'll get back to you in a moment. Herb.
All right, Mr. Van Doren, the first category — "Newspapers." How many
points do you want from 1 to 11?
Van Doren. I'll try 8 points.
Barry. For 8 points, the grandsons of Joseph Medill, two of the most success-
ful journalists in the country from 1914 on, were the owners and managers of
the Chicago Tribune and the New York Daily News. W^ho were they?
Van Doren. "Well, the Chicago Tribune — that would be Colonel Robert R.
McCormick.
Barry. You're right.
Van Doren. And the Daily News, wouldn't that be Patterson, Joseph
Patterson?
Barry. It would be, and you have 8 points.
Herb Stempel, with your $69,500 still at stake, although now at $2,500 a
point, the category is "Newspapers." How many do you want to try for?
Stempel. I'll try 11.
Barry. The toughest question of them all. One of the most revered names
in American journalism is that of a Kansas newspaper publisher who died in
1944. Tell us this man's name, the name of his newspaper, and the title of the
editorial he wrote which made him and his paper nationally known.
■Stempel. The name of the editor is William Allen White.
Barry. That is right.
Stempel. His paper was the Emporia Gazette.
Barry. That is right. Finally, for 11 points.
Stempel. I'll have to think a little bit about the third.
Barry. Herb, you can take a little time — you go right ahead.
It's the title of the editorial we want which he wrote. It made his paper
nationally famous, and well known.
Stempel. I don't know.
Barry. No idea?
Stempel. Just a moment — (mumble).
Barry. I beg your pardon?
Stempel. Just won't help to guess, I don't know.
Barry. I'm afraid I'm going to have to give it to you then, Herb. The edi-
torial, the title was "What's the Matter with Kansas?" I'm sorry you don't
answer — you don't lose any points, but you stay at zero. Better luck on the
next round.
Mr. Van Doren, you have eight points. The category "Kings." K-i-n-g-s.
How many points do you want?
Van Doren. I'll try for 10 points.
Barry. For 10 points ; it's well known that some of Henry the Eighth's six
wives fared better than others. He divorced his first wife, Catherine of Aragon,
married his sixth, Catherine Parr, just a few years befoi-e he died. Name the
second, third, fourth and fifth wives of Henry the Eighth and describe their
fates.
Van Doren. Oh, my goodness. You want me to name the second, third,
fourth, and fifth wives and what happened to all of them?
Barry. That's right.
Van Doren. I'll have to think a minute. Ah — Catherine — you mentioned
Catherine of Aragon — she was the first one. Now the second one was, aah —
Anne Boleyn.
Barry. That's right.
Van Doren. Uh — and of course the poor woman was beheaded.
Barky. That is right.
42 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Van Doeen. Uh, now the third — the third was Jane Seymour
Barry. Right.
Van Doren. And I believe she died a natural death — she died in child-
birth — uh
Barry. That is right.
Van Doren. After the birth of the future Edward the Sixth. Now the
third — the fourth now
Barry. Right.
Van Doren. Uh, let's see — two Annes — Anne of Cleves.
Barry. Right.
A^AN Doren. And I don't think he beheaded her — no, uh, did he divorce her?
Barry. You'll have to tell me rather than
Van Doren. He — he divorced her.
Barry. He did. You're right. Finally, the fifth.
Van Doren. The fifth — one more — uh, uh, one more. Oh. I think that Henry
the Eighth married three, three Catherines. Now
Barry. We mentioned Catherine of Aragon. Who was the other Catherine?
Van Doren. The sixth wife — uh, Catherine Parr — was that the sixth one?
Barry. Yeah.
Van Doren. Catherine of Aragon, Catherine Parr — Catherine Howard.
Barry. Right. And what happened to her?
Van Doren. Yes, what happened to her — considering Henry the Eighth he
probably divorced her (mumbling) he — he divorced his — did he behead Cather-
ine Howard?
Barry. He did. You've got 18 points.
Herb Stempel, you have no points — the category is "Kings" K-i-n-g-s. How
manp points do you want from 1 to 11?
Stempel. I'll try 10. 10.
Barry. Ten points. It is well known that some of Henrjr the Eighth's six
wives fared better than others. He divored his first wife, Catherine of Aragon,
married his sixth, Catherine Parr, just a few years before he died. Name the
second, third, fourth and fifth wives of Henry the Eighth and describe their
fates.
Stempel. Second, third, fourth, and fifth?
Barry. Right. And describe their fates.
Stempel. Anne Boleyn was the second •
Barry. Right.
Stempel. Jane Seymour was the third
Barry. That is right.
Stempel. Anne of Cleves was the fourth.
Barry. Right again.
Stemple. And Catherine Howard was the fifth.
Barry. You're right — ^you've got all the names, now can you describe their
fate.
Stempel. Well, they all died.
Barry. Well — Herb, I'm going to have to ask you how they died.
Stempel. I knew what you meant, Mr. — I knew what you meant Mr. Barry,
I was just making a little fun
Barry. First, Anne Boleyn
Stempel. Anne Boleyn- — executed.
Barry. Right. Jane Seymour.
Stempel. I'm not sui'e about ber
Barry. Want to go on to Anne of Cleves?
Stempel. Yes.
Barry. All right.
Stempel. Anne of Cleves — divorced.
Barry. Right. Catherine Howard.
Stempel. Catherine Howard— executed.
Barry. Right. And finally, back to Jane Seymour.
Stempel. Died in childbirth.
Barry. You're right. You have 10 points. Gentlemen, may I caution you
now not to divulge your scores because you can hear each other. AVe're at
the point now when you get a chance to stop the game — if either of you stops
the game, whoever has the high score wins. So be very, very careful — I'm
going to give you some time and I'll tell you when your time is up.
If either player stops the game right now, Mr. Van Doren, who is 8 points
ahead at $2,500 a point, will win back $20,000 from Herb Stempel. But he
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 43
doesn't know, because they don't know each other's scores. Let's see what
happens.
If either of you want to stop the game you must tell me so right now.
iVan Doken. I'll stop.
Barry. Then you win $20,000. Congratulations, Mr. Van Doren. You deserve
congratulations and while I'm saying that I want to say by golly you've had a
tremendous run here, Herb, you had $69,.o00 when you started, you lost $20,000—
you're still going to go home with $49,500, which is a big sum. Herb, in the few
brief moments we have, what are you going to do with your dough?
Stempel. Well, Mr. Barry, uh, this came so suddenly — the first thing I
want to do is outfit my family, and I, I would also like to make a small con-
tribution to the City College fund to repay the people of the city of New York
for the free education which they have given me, then I'm going to guard the
rest of my money, put it in a bank and — I — would also like to thank you and
the members of your staff for all the kindness and the courtesy which you've
extended to me.
Barry. Herb, I want to say one thing — we may have a lot of contestants in
the future, but I doubt that anybody will ever display the knowledge, the fight-
ing spirit, and the courage that you have on this program. We, your friends,
all the students at CCNY, I'm certain are just as proud of you as we are and
deservedly so. Thank you for being a wonderful contestant — Herb Stempel,
ladies and gentlemen
AVell, he went home with $49,500— you've got $20,000 right now Charles Van
Doren, come back next week — tell us whether you want to continue playing or
quit. Our congratulations for a wonderful victoi-y. Goodnight to Charles Van
Doren, ladies and gentlemen.
Friends, we don't have much time. Remember Geritol and Gerltol, Jr. Good
night everybody — see you next week. Thank you.
Announcer. If you often cannot sleep at nights, if you toss and turn, your
nerves on edge, here's a new sleeping tablet that helps you enjoy 100 percent
safe sleep. It's called Sominex. Sominex contains not just one but three
medical ingredients, all working together to help you enjoy sound, 100 percent
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percent safe sleep.
[Closing music — NBC chimes.]
Mr. LisHMAN. Mr. Stempel, you liave just seen a kinescopic show-
ing of the program "Twenty-one" on December 5. Is it an accurate
reproduction of the questions and answers that were asked you ?
Mr. Stempel. Exactly, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were you told the categories and given the questions
in advance of this program ?
Mr. Stempel. I was, sir.
Mr. LisHMAx. Who gave you that information ?
Mr. Stempel. Mr. Daniel Enright.
Mr. LisHMAN. Were you also coached on how to act in this pro-
gram ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, the final scene was all
written by a continuity writer, plus the fact that "they all dried"
section was thought up by me and inserted in the program at this
time.
JMr. LisHBiAN. Did you knoAv in advance the score on which you
would lose was 18 to 10 ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes. As a matter of fact, I spoke to, I believe, David
Gelman of the New York Post, and told him exactly what the score
was going to be.
Mr. Lishman. We have other questions we would like to ask you,
and I know the committee members have questions, but there is one
witness who will corroborate your testimony in part who is a doctor
and has some patients seriously ill, who has to return to New York
44 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
this afternoon. I would ask the chairman at this time to take Dr.
Brody out of turn as a witness, in order that he may corroborate the
witness' testimony that he had been coached in advance and knew what
the outcome of each show was before he appeared on the program.
The Chairman. As I understand, Dr. Brody will take just a few
minutes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Yes, sir ; a very few minutes.
The Chairman. Mr. Stempel, you may stand aside momentarily^
and after we hear Dr. Brody, we will recess for the noon hour and
you may return to the stand after lunch.
Dr. Brody, will you be sworn? Do you solemnly swear the testi-
mony you give to this committee to be the truth, the whole truth^
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. Brody. I do.
The Chairman. You may be seated.
TESTIMONY OP DR. NATHAN BEODY
Mr. LiSHMAN. Dr. Brody, are you acquainted with the witness^
Mr. Stempel?
Dr. Brody. I am.
Mr. LisHMAN. Have you been here in this room during the kine-
scopic reproductions and the testimony given by Mr. Stempel ?
Dr. Brody. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Is it a fact that in advance of his appearance on these
shows he told you that he had been informed of the categories and
given the questions and answers that would be used on the program ?
Dr. Brody. It is not quite that way, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Will you state what he told you ?
Mr. Brody. He came in the afternoon before the last show, the one
we have just seen. He told me, the words exactly as I can remember
them, were, "Tomorrow I take a dive." I asked him what he meant.
He said, "The first round will be a tie for 21."
Mr. LisHMAN. The first round will be a tie for 21 ?
Dr. Brody. And the second round I lose $20,000. That is all.
Mr. LiSHMAN. That is all he told you ?
Mr. Brody. That is right.
Mr. LiSHMAN. He told you that on the afternoon of December 5?
Dr. Brody. I don't know the date. It was the day before the last
show.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you watch the show ?
Dr. Brody. I did.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did what he told you actually happen ?
Dr. Brody. Exactly.
Mr. LiSHMAN. That is all I have of this witness, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Did you give your name and address?
Dr. Brody. I have just given my full name, not the address.
The Chairman. Will you give us your address for the record?
Dr. Brody. 67~G6 108th Street, Forest Hills 75, N.Y.
The Chairman. Mr. Springer.
Mr. Springer. Doctor, what kind of a doctor are you?
Dr. Brody. General practitioner. Medical doctor.
Mr. Springer. You are not a psychiatrist ?
Dr. Brody. No, I am not. Thank you.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 45^
The Chairman. Doctor, I want the record to show that you are a
voluntary witness here, and we want to thank you for your coopera-
tion and your willingness to come down here to testify.
Dr. Brody. Thank you, sir.
Tlie Chairman. The committee will recess until 1 : 30.
(Thereupon at 12: 05 p.m., a recess was taken until 1: 30 p.m., the
same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Is Mr. Janof sky here ?
Mr. Janof sky, I understand that you are very anxious to get away
and get back home. Your testimony will be very short. If you pre-
fer, you may come around now.
Will you be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this committee will
be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
TESTIMONY OF RICHAED JANOFSKY
Mr. Janofsky. I do.
The Chairman. Will you state your name for the record, please?
Mr. Janofsky. Richard Janofsky.
The Chairman. Your address?
Mr. Janofsky. 1153 Grand Concourse, Bronx, N. Y.
The Chairman. What is your business or profession ?
Mr. Janofsky. Salesman.
The Chairman. Mr. Lishman.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Janofsky, are you acquainted with Mr. Stempel ?
Mr. Janofsky. Yes, I am.
Mr. Lishman. Have you been present in the committee room this
morning?
Mr. Janofsky. Yes, I was.
Mr. Lishman. And you have seen all the kinescope reproductions?'
Mr. Janofsky. Yes, I have.
Mr. Lishman. Did Mr. Stempel tell you prior to his appearance on
the "Twenty-One" quiz program that he knew what categories would
be used and that he had been furnished questions and answers?
Mr. Janofsky. The way you put it, it is partially right and par-
tially wrong.
Mr. Lishman. Will you please explain exactly what he did tell you
in advance of the given show as to what would happen on tliat show ?
Mr, Janofsky. During the course of conversation over the tele-
phone, he told me that he had the questions and answers for that
particular show.
Mr. Lishman. Do you recall which show that was ?
Mr. Janofsky. I can only recall one particular question and ac-
tually, it was probably that series of questions for that particular
show.
Mr. Lishman. Do you recall the date or approximate date of that
show ?
INIr, Janofsky. No.
Mr. Lishman, What did he tell you ?
Mr. Janofsky. He said to me that, you, too, can be smart if you
have the answers in advance, and that we would have a little fun with
52294—60 — Bt. 1 4
46 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QIHZ SHOWS
my wife by me having the questions and answers before he went
on the air.
Mr, LiSHMAisr. Did you have that little fun with your wife ?
Mr. Janofskt. Well, yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Is it true that when you were watching the program
that evening that the question and answer Mr. Stempel had given you
were exactly as he told you earlier in the day ?
Mr. Janofsky. Yes. I actually was interested only in the answers
to questions No. 1, 2, 3, and so forth, knowing that he was going to miss
one of the questions and there would be the great opportunity of me
answering while he misses.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You mean, Mr. Janofsky, that Mr. Stempel told you
the question he would lose as well as the questions he would answer ?
Mr. Janofskt. Well, yes, I knew he was going to miss one question.
That is actually the only question I remember.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did he miss that question ?
Mr. Janofsky. Yes, he did.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you answer to your wife when it was asked ?
Mr. Janofsky. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you receive that answer from Mr. Stempel ?
Mr. Janofsky. Yes, I did.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What is the answer ?
Mr. Janofsky. The answer was on the Gothic architecture question.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Stempel gave you that correct answer preceding
the show ?
Mr. Janofsky. That is correct.
Mr. LiSHMAN. But on the show he missed it ?
Mr. Janofsky. That is right.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And you witnessed that ?
Mr. Janofsky. That is right.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And your wife with you ?
Mr. Janofsky. Well, she only heard me say the Gotliic.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I think that is enough to establish that Mr. Stempel,
in advance of his appearance on the program, had informed others
of what the outcome or what the questions would be on the program.
We have other witnesses who will corroborate Mr. Stempel's testi-
mony, but we have not called them at this particular session and I
don't believe it will be necessary to do so.
The Chairman. Very well.
Is that all of this witness ?
Thank you very much.
Mr. Janofsky. Thank you.
The Chairman. Mr. Stempel, you may resume.
TESTIMONY OF HERBERT M. STEMPEL— Resumed
The Chairman. Do you have any further questions of Mr. Stem-
pel, Mr. Lishman ?
Mr. Lishman. One or two questions, Mr. Chairman.
Now, Mr. Stempel, have any pressures ever been brought to bear
on you to keep this whole matter quiet ?
Mr. Stempel. Actually in a way, yes. In other words, all sorts
of blandishments and promises were made to me, as I have stated be-
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 47
fore ; that I would get certain jobs if I shut my mouth ; I would make
certain appearances on shows and become a part of the Barry & En-
right staff, and so forth, if I would just, very bluntly, shut my mouth
and not say anything about this to anybody.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you accept any of these jobs that were offered ?
Mr. Stempel. No, I never have because they never materialized.
I was promised a $250 a week job as a program consultant, as I stated
before. I was supposed to go to work on June 6, 1957, upon gradua-
tion from City College when I got my bachelor's degree.
The day I came up, Mr. Enright informed me that he had just sold
the program to NBC and he could not use me. I found out later on
he stillhad full control of the hiring and firing on this particular
program. This was just one incident.
x\lso, he told me another day that he was contemplating another
show called "High-Low." This was going to be a rotating 30-person
panel. He claimed he submitted m^^ name to this panel along with
29 other people and they had rejected 3 people, namely, a woman by
the name of Miss Euth Miller, who would appear against Van Doren
the night he won $99,500, January 15, 1957; the actor Carl Reiner,
and myself. This was about the last episode of having him tell me
he was going to give me these jobs.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Mr. Witness, did you ever make any phone betting
on "Twenty-one" ?
Mr. Stempel. I did.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Will you please explain how you did that ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes. I came up to Mr. Enright's office in March.
At tliat time Van Doren was engaged
Mr. LiSHMAN. March of what year?
Mr. Stempel. 1957, sir.
At that time Mr. Van Doren, as I remember, was engaged in a
series of ties with an attorney by the name of Mrs. Vivian Nearing.
I had participated at City College in one or two charity matches to
raise some mone^y for various charities and tliey requested when I
graduated in June that the night before I gi\aduated or the night on
which I graduated, that they have a charity match between Charles
Van Doren and myself.
I went to approach Mr. Enright about this particular thing, and
he told me very, very bluntly — as I walked into his office there was
a very large picture of Charles Van Doren upon his desk. This was
taken out of Time magazine. They ran a six-page article on Charles
Van Doren. I asked him if Charles Van Doren could play me in this
charity match which was being contemplated for eTune. He informed
me very bluntly- — I can practically quote it verbatim because I re-
member it — Charlie had no more desire to play any more quiz con-
tests, but if Mrs. Nearing was still on the show she would be there.
Immediately I understood that Monday night Charles Van Doren
would be going off the show.
I went to my bank on Monday morning and on a calculated risk
I took out $5,000 and bet it around at 2-to-l odds and won $10,000.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Mr. Stempel, do I understand your testimony to
mean that you knew the time and manner in which ]\Ir. Van Doren
was going to lose ?
Mr. Stempel. That is correct, sir.
48 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LiSHMAN. Where did you get that information ?
Mr. Stempel. Directly from Mr. Enright because he told me, by
inference, if Mrs. Nearing is still on the show she would be there,
which could mean only one thing to me; namely, that Charles Van
Doren would lose, the way the pattern of the show was running.
I spoke to Dave Gehman, a reporter for the New York Post, and'
just about predicted the exact score, 17-10; in fact, I did predict the
exact score 17 to 10.
Mr. LiSHMAN. How much money did you win on that betting?
Mr. Stempel. $10,000. The odds were 2 to 1.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You never had any direct laiowledge that Mr. Van
Doren ever received any assistance ?
Mr. Stempel. No direct knowledge. It has been by what prior-
testimony has been given.
The Chairman. Would that apply to eveiy other contestant that
you know anything about ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
I have no direct knowledge concerning any other contestant on the-
show.
Mr. LiSHMAisr. Mr. Stempel, are you familiar with the fact of a
press release that was issued on August 28, 1958, by the National
Broadcasting Co., which reads as follows:
The charges made by Herbert Stempel against the quiz show, "Twenty-one,"
first came to our attention over a year ago. At that time, we made an inves-
tigation and found them to be utterly baseless and untrue. We are completely
convinced of the integrity of "Twenty-one" as a program and of the integrity
of its producers, Barry »& Enright.
At the time these charges were first brought to our attention, and shortly
thereafter, two major New York newspapers made thorough investigations of
them and apparently concluded, as we did, that they had no basis in fact. As
a result, they printed nothing.
We have indicated to the district attorney's office we are prepared to cooperate-
fully in any investigation of the "Twenty-one" program or any other quiz pro-
gram broadcast over our facilities.
Are you familiar with that press release?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
As a matter of fact, I heard it many, many times thereafter. I
read it in the paper just about every day in the week. In fact, it
began to become a bit of a drone because that is all they ever kept
saying: "We have complete faith in the honesty and integrity of Jack
Barry and Dan Enright."
The point is that I swear before this committee that I had never
made any charges to NBC whatsoever. I never made any accusations.
I never was up to any NBC offices to make any accusations. To the
best of my knowledge, they could not have made any investigation
because I made no complaint to NBC.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Were you ever interviewed by anyone on behalf of
NBC to ascertain whether or not your statements were true and
correct ?
Mr. Stempel. Under oath, no.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Did they ever ask you about your corroborating-
witnesses ?
Anyone ?
Mr. Stempel. Nobody, as a matter of fact, from NBC ever ap-
proached me.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 49
I would like to see any bit of material which they could show
me in the form of a written statement of any type saying that I
made any sort of complaint because, to the best of my knowledge,
I have never made any complaint to NBC.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Stempel, did you ever see me before today?
Mr. Stempel. Never in my life, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. In other words, the questions and answers you are
now giving have not been rehearsed with me?
Mr. Stempel. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And they are truthful?
Mr. Stempel. That is correct, sir. Under oath I am telling exactly
what the story is.
Mr. LiSHMAN. That is all of my questions.
The Chairman. In order that there will be no misunderstanding,
staff members of this committee have talked to you ; is that not true ?
Mr. Stempel. That is correct.
The Chairman. Mr, Mack, are there any questions?
Mr. ]\'L\CK of Illinois. Mr. Stempel, do I understand that you were
coached on each occasion before you participated in this program ?
Mr. Stempel. That is correct, sir.
• Mr. Mack of Illinois. In addition to rehearsing the questions, you
also were coached as to how to answer the questions ?
Mr, Stempel. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Mack of Illinois. As part of this coaching, did they indicate
that you should pass certain questions or certain parts of a question ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
This is what is commonly used to refer to as the recapitulation.
If I might demonstrate for the committee this little bit of histrionic
business: In a seven- or eight-part question, take the first part, the
second part, the third, skip the fourth, the fifth, the sixth, the seventh
and the eighth, come back to that particular question, close your eyes,
count off and mumble these answers on your fingers. In the meantime,
strain for this particular answer to heighten the tension.
I was always instructed by Mr, Enright to count off what he called
a beat. In other words, this is a second pause before each particular
thing I did in such a way that a certain amount of seconds would
elapse to heighten the tension to the optimum. Then I was to sud-
dently open my eyes and with a dazzling smile give the answer and
explode when Jack Barry said "that is right."
That is exactly liow we were instructed.
Mr. Mack of Illinois. I noticed also that these programs have al-
ways seemed to end at the most appropriate time. I guess the coach-
ing controls the timing so that it ended at the most appropriate time,
so that they could run a commercial before the time expires ?
Mr, Stempel, You have just anticipated me, sir,
I was going to add what I consider to be a group of logical proofs
in addition to these inferential and positive proofs.
No. 1, m the 72 weeks, to the best of my knowledge, that "Twenty-
one" was on the air, I don't believe it ever ran overtime one time, I
believe this can be pretty well verified. This is quite unusual for any
program, including some of your dramatic series which would occa-
sionally get cut off ; in fact, quite often.
50 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
'No. 2, every winner who ever appeared on "Twenty-one" was a New
York resident, except for Harold Craig, who came from New York
State, and the hist two winners were from Los Angeles.
I believe in my opinion, I was strictly surmising, they did this so
they would be able to get in touch with a contestant very rapidly.
They could not tell him to take a jetplane from California. But
they could tell him to take a subway from the Bronx. This is a
matter of record.
Usually we find, on practically every other contest you find repre-
sentative groups from every other part of the United States. Here
you have nothing but New York winners except Harold Craig, New
York State. The last two contestants came from Los Angeles, two
big winners.
The Chairman. Mr. Stempel, if I understand this correctly, you
were on either 10 or 11 programs?
Mr. Stempel. Eight programs.
The Chairman. So that the record will be clear, on each and every
one of those eight programs you were supplied with the questions and
the answers?
Mr, Stempel. That is correct, sir, from the first to the last.
The Chairman. In the course of being supplied with this infor-
mation, did you talk with anyone else besides Mr. Enright ?
Mr. Stempel. Only with Mr. Freedman to say "Hello," and so
forth. He would usually issue me the continuity card for the week.
The Chairman. Issue the what ?
Mr. Stempel. This is the repartee.
In other words, the conversations wliich you saw when I went off
the air and made tliis final parting speech. This is a typewritten
thing which is prepared by their writers, or this conversation you
have with Mr. Barry when you come on the air. This banter, this
conversation, which is written by a writer who thinks up these nice
things to say which would appeal to the general mass of the public.
Mr. Springer. Did Mr. Freedman at any time ever supply you
with any of the questions or answers ?
Mr. Stempel. He did not, sir.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Stempel, apparently you have a very high IQ, is
that correct?
Mr. Stempel. That is correct.
Mr. Springer. Would you state what it is numerically ?
Mr. Stempel. Approximately 170.
Mr, Springer. What is genius on the scale ?
Mr. Stempel. I think about 145 or 150.
Mr. Springer. One thing further, Mr. Stempel :
Is any of the testimony which you have given in this heaiing moti-
vated by any animosity toward Mr. Enright or Mr. Barry or any
other person who failed to live up to what you considered to be an
agreement.
Mr. Stempel. I would say the following, sir :
As I have testified before, I have no feelings of animosity toward
Mr. Barry, who has in no way hurt me. I feel that Mr. Enright has
not lived up to his agreements. However, it extends even further. I
have been bothered very deeply by my conscience, especially as I told
the committee before from the time this school vendetta started in
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 51
tlie last week or so and I was playing against Van Doren. I was
very hurt at being forced — I am very funny that way — to miss ques-
tions which were quite easy to me. Tliis sort of hurt me. I don't
know why ; it just did.
Mr. Springer. Beyond that you have no feeling in this matter?
Mr. Stempel. I just want — this has become a hearing which I want
to end and tell my story and finish.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Stempel, have you ever at any time had any
psychiatric treatment ?
Mr. Stempel. I have, sir.
Mr. Springer. Was that extended ?
Mr. Stempel. That was after I left the "Twenty-one" program, sir.
Mr. Springer. You had none before that ?
Mr. Stempel. I had never had any before in my life.
Mr. Springer. After that, was it an extended period ?
Mr. Stempel. It was approximately a 10-month period at a pri-
vate psychiatrist's in Forest Hills on my own volition because I
felt we all can use some help and I went to seek him myself. I was
very nervous.
Mr. Springer. Did you feel that the psychiatric treatment that
was necessary was caused by your conduct and relation with these
other people on the program ?
Mr. Stempel. I felt that this was quite a contributory factor, sir.
Mr. Springer. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Kogers,
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Mr. Stemple, do I understand that the first
you knew about this being a matter to be set up and to be fraudulent,
let us say, as far as the eyes of the public is concerned, was when this
man asked you if you wanted to make $25,000 ?
Mr. Stempel. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. As I understand you, after that you did
everything you were told to do except wear that double-breasted
suit that last night?
Mr. Stempel. That is correct.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. They asked you to do a lot of things?
Mr. Stempel. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Did they ever make you drink any Geritol?
Mr. Stempel. Frankly speakmg, I couldn't see spending $2.98 for
25 cents worth of cheap medicine.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Wliat were those tablets ?
Mr. Stempel. Zarumin.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. What are they supposed to do to you ?
Mr. Stempel. They are allegedly to cure rheumatism.
Excuse me, "cure" is not right. "Relief."'
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Were you familiar with these products at
all?
Mr. Stempel. I had seen them advertised when Jack Barry and
Dan Enright had "Life Begins at 80" for these octogenarians who used
to appear before cameras and sort of commit capers.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Mr. Stempel, we know of course from your
testimony when you decided to "kiss"; when did 3^011 decide to "tell?
Mr. Stempel. I decided to tell immediately after having left the
program. In fact, I was contacted by David Gelman of the New
52 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
York Post in February of 1957, and I revealed to him the whole story
from beginning to end. The Post, however, was afraid to print tliis
because they were afraid it might involve them in libel suits.
Mr, Rogers of Texas. You did not decide to tell until after you got
your money ?
Mr. Stempel. That is correct.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Had you cashed your check?
Mr. Stempel. I had cashed my check ; yes.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Was that check written on the company, the
last one you got, and the payment stopped if you talked earlier?
Mr. Stempel. They were all written on Do jo, Inc.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. What was that ? Jojo ?
Mr. Stempel. Do jo. D-o-j-o. That is the incorporated name for
Barry & Enright "Twenty-one" program. They run a lot of operat-
ing companies and they have one holding company in the corporate
structure.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. What was this fellow's name you told on the
Post?
Mr. Stempel. David Gelman.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. You say he was afraid to print it ?
Mr. Stempel. The libel lawyers were afraid to print it for fear that
they might get involved in libel suits.
In fact, may I say, sir, that in September 1957, 1 told the whole story
to Jack O'Brien and Jim Horan of the New York Journal-American.
For 12 weeks, as I said before, I had been told that I was persona non
grata on this summer replacement, Tennessee Ernie Ford, called
"High-Low," A special services staff of the New York Journal-
American, which had written a three-part serial but could not print
it because the libel lawyers were afraid, went up to Enright and
accused him of fixing the program.
I received a call from him and he asked me, on the last week sum-
mer replacement, if I would like to appear for "High-Low" for $500
for the half hour. I told him "I am sorry, I do not wish to appear."
I did not appear.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Have you been threatened by anyone with a
lawsuit of any kind ?
Mr. Stempel. No, sir.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. You say you picked up an extra $10,000 bet-
ting on a horse you knew was coming in, so to speak ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Did any of your friends make any money off
the tips you gave them ?
Mr, Stempel, I felt this was a sort of private stock deal. It was a
calculated risk in that Mr, Enright might have changed his mind at
the last minute. It was a sort of gamble.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. You said you were very much upset when
you got into this school contest or old school contest at the last with
Van Doren. There was not anything to make you answer that ques-
tion wrong, was there ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir ; there was.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. What was that ?
Mr, Stempel. That was the following: This particular agreement
I had signed with them by which, even if I went over the $100,000,
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 53
he would only be forced to pay me $60,000, in this way I was getting
$50,000, so the $10,000 spread. Furthermore, with a future promise
of jobs, et cetera, which he offered to me, I recalculated on the tax
basis that my earnings would eventually total more than if I had
"double-crossed" them and gone ahead.
Once I had double-crossed them, let us say, there was one of two
recourses : Either to quit the program next week or to play with the
other party being arranged against you and face the consequences.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Both of you were dancing to the tune of the
greenback, were you not ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes. This again, of course, will bring up one final
question.
If I felt so badly about this, why did I not give the money back ?
I could not see returning it to Daniel Enright.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. I cannot hear you.
Mr. Stempel. I said I could not see returning this to Daniel
Enright who, too, was involved in this particular fraud.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. You mean you felt you had earned it by
doing all this work ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes.
Actually, may I say I was not a quiz contestant in this program,
in my opinion. I was an actor, as you probably have noticed by
watching the kinescope.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. You have not given the money back?
Mr. Stempel. No, sir.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. You do not intend to, do you ?
Mr. Stempel. No, sir ; I do not, because I would only have to give
it back to Daniel Enright, who perpetrated the fraud to begin with.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Do not misunderstand me. I would not
blame you at all about that. I would not expect you to give the
money back.
How many people on this show, Mr. Stempel, besides you knew
what was going on ?
Mr. Stempel. I would say that, in view of the continuity cards,
that Mr. Freedman probably knew that something was amiss. I
could not say how much he knew in my particular case. I know Mr.
Enright, since I had my dealings with him, definitely knew.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. What about this fellow that was on the pic-
ture that advertised Geritol and the pills ?
Mr. Stempel. Bob Shepherd is a City College alumnus.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. No, the fellow who introduced you ?
Mr. Stempel. Jack Barry ?
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Yes.
Mr. Stempel. I would say as a full partner in Barry & Enright,
Inc., now known as Production Services, that he was probably ap-
prised of the fact that there was some hanky-panky going on, but due
to the fact that he might inadvertently make a mistake, he was not
involved as to the exact nature of it because he might accidentally
make a mistake.
I remember distinctly on one program, as a matter of fact — this
may be slightly peripheral to the whole business — a contestant asked
for the three parts and then he changed in the 11-point part of this
question.
54 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. EoGERs of Texas. He looked a little worried that you might
answer that question right that you were supposed to answer wrong?
Mr. Stempel. Actually, this was in the eleventh hour and because I
had been so disturbed that day, they were afraid I might "double-
cross" them because I wanted to play the game honestly that evening.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. You think Enright and Barry were the only
two that knew about this ?
Mr. Stempel. Possibly, as I said before, because of the continuity,
Freedman. I am not positive. I cannot state with any certainty
anybody except Enright. I will not accuse anybody except Enright.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Did you ever have any discussions with the
man who makes Geritol ?
Mr, Stempel. Matty Rosenhouse ?
I do not know him.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Matty Rosenhouse ?
Mr. Stempel. That is right. R-o-s-e-n-h-o-u-s-e, I believe.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Did you meet him in connection with the
show?
Mr. Stempel. I never met him in my life.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. When did you first find out he made Geritol ?
Mr. Stempel. T\^ien during the rehearsal session I won an extra
amount of dollars and Jack Barry made the crack "this will involve
a tremendous amount of tired blood for Matty Rosenhouse."
Mr. Rogers of Texas. You say you never did try the product ?
Mr. Stempel. No, sir ; I would rather take some reputable product.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Mr. Stempel, was there anything that Mr.
Van Doren did that would indicate to you that he was in on the entire
arrangement insofar as knowing the answers and the questions prior
to the time the show began ?
Mr. Stempel. No, sir.
On the actual production level, once you got into the studio every
attempt was made to keep everything on the up and up. Contestants
were completely segregated. You went into the make-up situation
completely apart. In other words, everything on the surface smacked
of complete respectability just as if on another certain program you
had two bank guards standing there guarding the vault.
The actual mechanics of the program were unimpeachable. It was
completely on the up and up because there was no real need to have
any hanlry-panlvy.
I have been asked questions, to- wit : Have answers ever been piped
in to you on the earphones ? This is one of the questions I have been
asked.
Do people light matches in the audience and signal you as to
answers, and so forth ?
As I have said before, there was no need for this when somebody
originates the question and gives you the answer and then it is put
through a typist and then sent on to the studio.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Derounian.
Mr. Dkrotjnian. ]Mr. Stempel, during the period following your
receipt of the Enright "treatment," is it true that Mr. Enright was in
charge of that program for the other contestants?
Mr. Stempel. That is correct, sir.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 55
Mr. Derounian. Including Mr. Van Doren ?
Mr. SxEMrLE. That is correct.
Mr. Derounian. Mr. Van Doren has built himself up as an in-
tellectual giant in the eyes of the American people and is making a
lot of money today on Dave Garroway's program telling sweet stories
of art, poetry, and compassion for humankind. Is it reasonable to
assume, based upon your information, that Mr. Van Doren also got the
Enright preparation and treatment throughout these programs he
participated in?
Mr. Stempel. May I say, sir — I believe you watched the kinescopes
and watched the identical actions. I would assume that two gentle-
men under pressure do not have the exact same patterns when they
are nervous. Some people whom I know pull ears, scratch heads,
sneeze, cough, et cetera. When two people bite lips, scratch heads,
mop brows, and act identically alike, I would venture to say that the
treatment was probably of the same.
Mr. Derounian. You told your friend, Mr. Janofsky: "You, too,
can be smart if you know the answers in advance." Does that apply
to Mr. Van Doren, in your opinion ?
Mr. Stempel. Pardon, sir ?
Mr. Derounian. You told your friend, Mr. Janofsky: "You, too,
can be smart if you know the answers in advance," relating to the
program and how lie was going to answer your question right. Do
you think that applies to Mr. Van Doren, too ?
Mr. Stempel. I must leave it for the committee to decide, sir. I
cannot make any accusations. I am just saying what I know to be
factual. I will not render an opinion in this particular case.
Mr. Derounian. Do you feel that Mr. Enright followed the same
procedure with the other contestants as he did with you ?
Mr. Stempel. May I relate a little incident that happened in Long-
champs Eestaurant in New York? A few days or a few weeks after
I went off the program I was talking to Mr. Enright one day, and
I happened to make a remark to him in the course of conversation,
"You know, ever since I went off the program, took the dive for
Charley, he is doing all right now." AVliereupon Mr. Enright re-
plied to me, "Oh, no, Charley is playing honestly." That is exact-
ly what the gentleman said to me.
Mr. Derounian. Mr. Stempel, the reason I point out Mr. Van
Doren a little bit is because in the United States we are concerned
about education and salutary standards for our children. Here a
man is supposedly revered for his knowledge and intellectual capacity.
I want to be sure that he is not perpetrating a fraud on the American
people and the students who look upon him as a man with knowl-
edge when in fact he was fixed.
Mr. Stempel. Let me make two points, sir: No. 1, there was one bit
of repartee on the program at one time in whicli I believe Jack Barry
made a quote to the following effect, or essence. I cannot quote this
verbatim. That kids are doing their homework now. "Charlie, will
you tell the kids to do their homework and behave, because you are
looked upon and revered." Also that several of these apotheosis
themes, that constantly refer to the man with Lincoln aspects, has
furtherance to this particular idea. That is all I can say, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Devine.
56 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr, Devine. I have one question just to clarify the record.
Mr. Stempel, in reply to a question propounded to you by Mr.
Lishman generally to the effect, "Has NBC questioned you about this,"
and your reply was, "Under oath, no," do you mean that they had
not questioned you under oath, or are you saying today under oath,
"No"?
Mr. Stempel. No, I say under oath before this committee that I
have never been approached by any representative of NBC in any
way, shape or form, or ever asked whether I had any charges to make
concerning "Twenty-one."
Mr. Devine. That clarifies the question. Thank you.
The Chairman. Mr. Stempel, you have given some testimony here
that certainly reflects a rather unusual situation on the American
people. You have been very positive about your testimony. You
have made no assumptions. I am glad you did not make any be-
cause what we want is to know the knowledge that you have. It is
not clear to me just why you decided that you had better reveal the
facts and the information regarding this matter when there had been
built up a program, I suppose, that was listened to by as many peo-
ple on television and broadcast facilities as most any program in the
history of broadcasting.
Mr. Stempel. I will tell you, sir. I just was not myself. I just
could not live with myself. In all sincerity, it just bothered me. The
fact that I, my friends and relatives, and people who were pulling for
me, had let them down, and the whole situation. For example, that
"Wednesday prior to going on and losing, which I knew I was going
to do, NBC was running spot announcements just about every half
hour saying the following: "Will Herb Stempel crack the $100,000
mark tonight?" I was sitting home very, very bluntly and saying,
"No, he is not going to crack the $100,000 mark, because he is goino; to
take a dive tonight." I was really conscience stricken, in all sincerity.
It just bothered me and I just could not do my work right. It was
something that I had to get off my chest.
The Chairman, Very well. Mr. Lishman,
Mr. Lishman. I have one or two questions. Mr. Stempel, is it
correct that there came a time when at the request of Mr. Enright you
signed an affidavit to the effect that you had never received any assist-
ance in the "Twenty-one" show program ?
Mr. Stempel. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Lishman. Will you please explain the facts with respect to
this affidavit?
Mr. Stempel. Very, very bluntly, we had a slight quarrel, because
of the fact he had not given me the jobs which he had promised. He
told me in effect that if I signed tliis repudiation and said that his
program was honest, we would start on a harmonious basis from there
on in, and I would get the jobs which liad been promised. In order to
get this job which I had been promised, I very simply — and as you
know this is written strictly in legal language which I myself com-
posed and never notarized nor signed by any attorney whatsoever.
Mr. Lishman. About when was this signed?
Mr. Steisiple. This was signed to the best of my recollection ap-
proximately March 7, 1957.
Mr. Lishman. Were the contents of this statement true or false ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 57
Mr. Stempel. The contents of that statement are false. Under oath.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Now, Mr. Stempel, do you have any personal knowl-
edge that Mr. Van Doren was fixed ?
Mr. Stempel. Only by the testimony, sir
Mr. LiSHMAN. No ; I am asking if you have personal knowledge.
Mr. Stempel. No, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. You have no personal knowledge whatsoever.
Mr. Stempel. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Lishman. He could very well have answered these questions
without coaching?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAisr. He is acknowledged, is he not, to be a man of intel-
lectual ability?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. It is not for you to make any assumptions. If you
have no knowledge that he or anyone else has been fixed in connection
with these programs, then certainly you should say so, and you have so
stated. But did you not also say that you were given precisely the
numbers that you were to select on this last show that you were on,
and that you knew precisely what the numbers were going to be, and
that they were going to be tied, and then played over again, and what
the outcome of it was ?
JNIr. Stempel. Yes, sir ; I knew that in the seventh week and I also
revealed this.
The Chairman. In other words, you knew that you were going to
be tied with Mr. Van Doren at 21 and 21 ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. I also revealed, as my physician has testi-
fied, that I would lose $20,000, and I told him the score.
The Chairman. Wliat ?
Mr. Stempel. I also revealed that I would lose $20,000 and that I
would lose by a score.
The Chairman. Yes, I know you revealed that. Here is the point.
You knew that you were going to be tied for 17 and 17 on that show.
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Then you Imew you were going to be tied for 21
and 21 on that show.
Mr. Stempel. That is correct.
The Chairisian. And then you knew you were to lose at a certain
point.
Mr. Steivipel. If I may say so, that is the week before. I believe
we are getting our weeks a little mixed up. On the seventh week I was
told that I would tie the first game at 17 to 17. In the second game
at 21-21. In the third game 1 was told — I asked what the results
would be, and Mr. Enright told me I would be pleasantly surprised. I
found another tie. The next week I was told very bluntly I would tie
at 21-21 after missing this Marty question. In the second game I
would lose by a score of 18 to 10, and lose $20,000, which I revealed to
my physician as he has testified here under oath.
The Chair3ian. The important point that seems to be here is, with-
out any assumption whatsoever, and without stating any opinion about
it — facts are what we want — you knew that you were going to have
17, as it was shown here, and you knew that Mr. Van Doren was
going to have 17, because you were going to be tied.
58 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
The Chairman, Subsequently thereto you knew that you were
going to get 21. You knew he was going to get 21.
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers. "Will the chairman yield for one observation ?
The Chairman. Yes, sir. I just wanted the facts to be very ex-
plicit.
Mr. Rogers. I think that is a very excellent point.
Mr. Stempel, did you know before you went into the booth what
points you were going to choose on each question ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers. There was no signal given to you by anyone as to the
number of points after you had entered the booth ?
Mr. Stempel. No, sir. This had all been discussed on Tuesday
afternoon at 1 : 30 p.m., and reverified again on Wednesday afternoon
at 1 : 30 p.m., 9 hours prior to going on the show.
Mr. Rogers. So someone must have known what points Mr. Van
Doren was going to have?
Mr. Stempel. Definitely. Mr. Enright did know if he could tell
me there was going to be a tie three times in a row, and also tell me I
was going to lose $20,000, as my physician testified.
Mr. Derounian. You helped clarify the situation to the extent that
it is clear that there was something going on beyond a one-way fix
with Mr. Stempel.
Mr. LisHMAN. Mr. Stempel, is it possible that Mr. Van Doren might
have been told what number of points to select and that he was not.
furnished either with the questions or answers ?
Mr. Stempel. The possibility exists, sir.
Mr. Lishman. In other words, the testimony that you have just
given to the subcommittee members in no way is to the point that he
was given the questions and answers, is that correct ?
Mr. Stempel. That is correct, sir. I am just saying that I knew the
points that he would take and I would take. I do not know if he was
apprised of the questions or not.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Is it possible, although you have testified to the con-
trary, that while you were in the booth you may have been receiving
signals showing what the points were ?
Mr. Stempel. No, sir ; it is not possible.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You mentioned a moment ago that by striking a
match in the audience a signal might have been passed to you.
Mr. Stempel. That is correct. These are things that people
have
Mr. LiSHMAN. Now we are in the realm of possibilities as to Mr-
Van Doren's being fixed by being given questions and answers.
The Chairman. Mr. Moss.
Mr. Moss. I think on that point we should recall that Mr. Van
Doren in this final })rogram won by challenging. He challenged when
he had 18 and Mr. Stempel had 10. You lost at that point your
$20,000, and you w re eight points behind.
Mr. Stempel. TJiat is correct.
Mr. Moss. You had prior knowledge that this would be the score.
Mr. Stempel. That is correct.
Mr. Moss. The fact that Mr. Van Doren chose to challenge, after
each of you had been afforded the opportunity of answering two ques-
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 59
tions, would reasonably raise the assumption that he must have had
some information because the initiative to supply to you through
signals at that point would not have caused Mr. Van Doren to chal-
lenge unless he also had knowledge.
Mr. Stempel. That is right, sir. I would say that was a very, very
good assumption.
The Chairman. Mr, Lishman.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Stempel, inadvertently I said you selected cate-
gories in certain of these programs. It is a fact, is it not, that you did
not select the categories? That you were told by Mr. Enright what
they would be?
Mr. Stempel. That is right. Tlie categories, as Mr. Enright re-
lated to me, worked upon a rotating basis. He would select the cate-
gories which were to be given to you each week.
Mr. Moss. On this matter of when to or when not to challenge dur-
ing the course of your eight appearances on the program, were you
told when to challenge ?
Mr. Stempel. Yes, sir. In fact, I was instructed how to play every
single game, and when to challenge.
Mr. Moss. When you challenged did you have prior knowledge as
to what the score of each contestant would be ?
Mr. Stempel. No, sir. I was just told I was going to win. I was
told that is exactly what was going to happen.
The Chairman. Thank you very much for your appearance today.
Mr. Snodgrass.
Will you be sworn, Mr. Snodgrass. Do you solemnly swear the
testimony you give to this committee to be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I do.
The Chairman. Have a seat, please. State your name for the
record.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES SNODGRASS
Mr. Snodgrass. James Snodgrass.
The Chairman. What is your address, Mr. Snodgrass?
Mr. Snodgrass. 295 Eighth Avenue, New York 1, N. Y.
The Chairman. What is your business or profession?
Mr. Snodgrass. I am an artist.
The Chairman. Are you a contestant in the "Twenty-one" show?'
Mr. Snodgrass. I was a contestant ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Lislmian, do you care to proceed?
Mr. Lishman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Snodgrass, when did you first appear on the television show,.
"Twenty-one"?
Mr. Snodgrass. April 22, 1957.
Mr. Lishman. How long were you on that show ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I was on five times.
IVIr. Lishman. Five weeks ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Five times over a period of 7 weeks.
Mr. Lishman. Were you assisted prior to your appearance on the
television show by being given questions and answers that were used on
the show ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, I was.
Mr. Lishman. On all occasions that you appeared ?
60 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
The Chairman. Mr. Lishman, pardon me before we go on. At the
outset I think the record should show that Mr. Snodgrass has counsel
with him. I think the record should identify the fact that counsel is
present. Would you state your name ?
Mr. DoNTSiN. Michael J. Dontsin.
The Chairman. Your address ?
Mr. Dontsin. 258 Broadway, New York 7, KY.
The Chairman. You are appearing here as counsel along with Mr.
Snodgrass to advise him in accordance with the rules of the House of
Representatives ?
Mr. Dontsin. I am, sir.
The Chairman. Are you familiar with those rules ?
Mr. Dontsin. I am, sir. I just read them again.
The Chairman. That you are to advise him of his rights, and you
are, of course, not to represent him, that is speak for him, or testify
for him.
Mr. Dontsin. I am aware of that, sir.
The Chairman. Very well, sir. Just so we understand.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Snodgrass, were you assisted by being fur-
nished questions and answers prior to your appearance on the show
on any of these performances ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, I was.
Mr. Lishman. On how many of them did you receive such assist-
ance?
Mr. Snodgrass. I received assistance on all except two occasions.
Mr. Lishman. All except two occasions ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I had assistance for every occasion, but there were
two questions that I was not assisted with.
Mr. Lishman. I was coming to that. I was going to ask you
whether it was a fact on every program except one. Even there you
received assistance.
Mr. Snodgrass. Even there I had assistance.
Mr. Lishman. To clarify the situation, is it not a fact that on every
program with the exception of certain questions on two of the pro-
grams that you did receive assistance in advance of your appearance
on the program ?
Mr. Snodgrass. It is a fact.
Mr. Lishman. Now we come to the television show, "Twenty-one",
of May 13, 1957. Do you remember appearing on that show?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, I do.
Mr. Lishman. Were you furnished the questions and answers that
you were to give on that show in advance of your appearance ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, I was.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Snodgrass, is it not a fact that on the occasions
when in advance you were given the questions and answers, you would
put them in a sealed envelope immediately after receiving them and
address them to you at your home address in a registered mail envel-
ope?
Mr. Snodgrass. That is right.
Mr. Lishman. What was your purpose in doing this ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Well, I still haven't explained it to myself. It was
just something that I knew maybe some day — that maybe I would have
to prove, that I would perhaps say something and I would be called to
task for it, and I would have to be able to prove it. I don't loiow. I
just did this to protect myself.
INYESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 61
Mr. Ltsiiman. Now, Mr. Snodgrass, is it not a fact that when you
were given these questions and answers in advance, you were in-
strncted to memorize tliem and immediately destroy them.
INIr. Snodgrass. I was never given anything to destroy. The ques-
tions were always read to me.
Mr. LisiiMAx. Did you type them up immediately ?
Mr. Snodgrass. '^V^len I woidd go home, I would then reconstruct
the session and send it to myself.
Mr. LisToiAN. Now, Mr. Snodgi'ass, I am going to hand you — —
The Chairman. Just a moment, Mr. Lishman. Let me get a little
more information from him about this.
INIr. Snodgrass, let me see if I understand you correctly. Wiiere
would you be when these questions and answers would be given to
you?
INIr. Snodgrass. In Mr. Freedman's otHce at the offices of Barry &
Enright.
The Chairman. They would present you with the questions there
in writing?
j\Ir. Snodgrass. He read them off a ]iiece of paper. He asked me
the questions.
The Chairman. He asked you the questions ?
Mr. Snodgr-\ss. Yes.
The Chairman. You would undertake to answer them at that time?
Mr. Snodgrass. That is right.
The Chairman. And if you did not know the answer, he would pro-
vide the answer?
Mr. Snodgrass. He provided the answer; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Then you would go home?
Mr. Snodgrass. I would go home. He provided the answer and
maybe the sequence that they were to be answered in. Then I would
go home.
The Chairman. You would go home and reconstruct them, on the
typewriter?
Mr. Snodgrass. In one case longliand, twice on the typewriter, and
sent them to myself by registered mail. ' •
The Chairman. You are getting a little nhead of me.
Mr. Snodgrass. I am sorry.
The Chairman. You would go home and reconstruct them on the
typewriter ?
Mr. Snodgrass. That is right.
The Chairman. Then you would put them in the envelope there ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes.
The Chairman. It Avould be a registered envelope?
Mr. vSnodgrass. It would be mailed reo-istered mail.
The Chairman. Addressed to yourself ?
Mr. Snodgr^vss. Addressed to myself.
The Chairman. You were in your home then ? =
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes.
The Chairman. "Where would vou mail them?
Mr. Snodgrass. At that time t lived on West 16th Street. There
was a branch post office on West 18th Street.
The Chairman. You would take them out of your home where you
had reconstructed them, put them in an envelope, address them to
yourself, go to a mailbox somewhere and mail them back to yourself?
52294— 60— pt. 1 5
62 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Snodgeass. I went to a branch post office and mailed tliem back '
to my place.
The Chaikman. At the place you had left from, your home.
Mr. Snodgrass. That is right.
The Chairman. You may proceed.
Mr. Snodgrass. Pardon me, ISIr. Chairman. There was one letter
which was mailed from Westport, Conn.
The Chairman. By yourself?
Mr. Snodgrass. By myself ; yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Snodgrass, I am going to hand you a sealed
envelope. I don't know the contents in it. I would like to have you
first, before opening it, read exactly what there is on the face of this
letter and inclicate how it was registered and the date and so on, and
ask you whether or not it is not addressed to you in your own hand-
writing? Is it not one of the letters that you mailed as you have just
described ?
( Document handed to witness. )
Mr. Snodgrass. The envelope is addressed to Mr. James Snodgrass,
231 West 16th Street, NeAv York, N.Y. The sender's name is J. Snod-
grass, 231 West 16th Street, New York, N.Y. It was mailed and
registered at the Old Chelsea Station, New York, N.Y., May 11, 1959.
Mr. Lisiiman. Is that one of the letters that you mailed to yourself ?
Mr. Snodgrass. This is one of them ; yes, sir.
Mr, LiSHMAN. That letter is not opened ; is it ?
Mr. Snodgrass. No, sir; it has not been opened.
Mr. Lisiiman. Is there a stamp mark showing the date on the face
side of that envelope showing it had been posted May 11, 1957 ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes. The meter thing from the post office is May
11, 1957, New York, N.Y., 43 cents worth of postage, 415674 is the
registry number.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Thank you. I will state for the committee that we
have the benefit of a police laboratory report of the New York City
Police Department that this letter has not been opened, and it has been
delivered to us in the same condition as reported by the Police Depart-
ment of the City of New York. At this time, I would like to ask that
this letter be received in the record, following Avhich I would like to
have Mr. Snodgrass open that letter and read its contents into the
record. I would like to have him do this publicly so all members can
see that he is opening an unopened registered letter.
The Chairman. Mr. Snodgrass, you have just testified that you
mailed this letter to yourself?
Mr. Snodgrass. That is right.
The Chairman. And you received it ?
Mr. Snodgrass. And I received it.
The Chairman. Has it been opened to your knowledge since you
received it?
Mr. Snodgrass. To my knowledge, no.
The Chairman. It is now just as it was when you received it by
the postman ?
Mr. Snodgrass. It has two grand jury stamps on the back. Other-
wise it is the same.
The Chairman. Was it opened by the grand jury ?
Mr. Snodgil\ss. I srather no.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 63
The Chairman. You may go ahead and open the envelope.
(Witness opens envelope as directed.)
The Chairman. You may state the contents of it.
Mr. Snodgiuvss (reading) :
New York, N.Y., May JO, 1957.
To ichoin it niai/ concern:
The following are some of the questious, specilieally the oue I will be asked
for the television quiz show "Twenty-one"' on the night of May 13 (Monday).
First category : "MoTies" — I take 11 points. The question is worth 11 points.
In the story of "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs." after she is banished
from the palace of her stepmother, the Queen, Snow White goes to live in the
forest with seven dwarfs. In the Walt Disney version, what were the names of
the seven dwarfs?
(I shall answer in this sequence — Sleepy, Sneezy, Dopey, Hapi.y (pause) the
grouchy one. Grumpy (pause) Doc (pause) Bashful.
Second category : "England" — I take 10 pijints.
What was the name of the ruling houses to which the following monarchs
belonged— Richard II, Henry VII, Edward V, George VI?
( I shall answer something like this. Richard II was the last of the Plantag-
euets ; Henry VII was a Tudor. I shall then ask to come back to P]dward V.
George the Sixth of course was of the House of Windsor. Then I think about
Edward V and mention that he was the kid murdered in the Tower of London
by Richard III; he was not a Tudor, he was of the House of York.)
That ends the first game with a score of 21. Presumably Bloomgarden and
I shall be tied.
The Chairman. Who was he ?
Mr. Snodgrass. He was the cliampion and I was the challenger.
The Chairman. ]Mr. Bloomgarden.
Mr. Snodgrass. Bloomgarden. He was the champion and I was the
challenger.
First round game 2 : "Presidents."
The first President of our country was a President —
I will read it as it is — it doesn't make sense :
The first President of our country was a President as was President Eisen-
hower. Identify the following Presidents who also were generals. This man
won fame by defeating the British at New Orleans during the War of 1812?
(I answer correctly — Andrew Jackson. ) This general led the American forces at
the Battle of Thames in 1813? (I stress the fact that Thames is in Ontario,
Canada, also during the War of 1812. William Henry Harrison.) This man
enlisted in the army as a private, was appointed a brigadier general and fought
with General Scott in capture of Mexico City — (According to the plan of the
show I am to miss this question. I am to say "Ulysses S. Grant" which is wrong.
The proper answer is "Franklin Pierce." This general defeated Santa Ana at
the Battle of Buena Vista ? ( Zachary Taylor. )
Second round — "The Twenties" (I again try for 11 points since I am at zero.)
The following authors were awarded the Pulitzer prize in the twenties.
Name the work for which they received this prize.
Stephen Vincent Benet ("John Brown's Body"), Edna Ferber (for her novel
"So Big"), Edith Wharton (for "The Age of Innocence"). Thornton Wilder
("The Bridge of San Luis Rey").
I must say in the dressing room prior to the program there was a
change in scliedule and I was told not to miss the question but to get
it right. So there will be a discrepancy here between what is on this
paper and what actually happened.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Does that complete the reading of that letter^
Mr. Snodgrass. Except for my signature, James Snodgrass.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I would like to have this envelope in the record
bearing the registered stamp.
The Chairman. It is already noted.
64 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
(Tlie photostatic reproduction of the envelope follows :)
fA.
4^,4- .^^.f4^^'
isitmmmaiimieit
ivri'W'Tfiltmr
Mr. LisHMAN. Now I would like to ask to have a kinescopic show-
ing of the television show "Twenty-one" on May 13, 1957, which was 2
days later than the postmark date on the exhibit order that we may as-
certain whether or not the contents of this letter are substantially
true and correct. I would advise the committee that to my knowledge
no one other than Mr. Snodgrass has ever seen this letter or its con-
tents before,
[Showing of kinescope.]
The Chairman. You may proceed, Mr. Lishman.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Snodgrass, was the kinescopic showing you have
just seen an accurate reproduction of the questions and answers that
you gave on that program ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, it was.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 65
Mr. LisiiMAN. Is it a fact that with respect tO' all of those questions
and answers with the one exception, they w^ere contained in the letter
that has already been introduced in evidence?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, they were.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I would like to have a transcript made from the tape
recording of the sound and incorporate it in the record when it is
completed.
The Chairmax. "Without objection, it will be included.
(The transcript referred to follows:)
Barry. Good eveniug. I'm Jack Barry. To date here on "Twenty-one" Hank
Bloomgarden has won over $.50,000. Because of a series of ties, he must play
the next game at §2,000 a point, which means that in just a few brief minutes
he could increase his money winnings to close to $100,000, or he could lose prac-
tically all of it. To learn the outcome let's meet our first two players, as
Geritol, the high-potency tonic that helps you feel stronger fast, presents
"Twenty-one."
Back for the third week, Mr. James Snodgrass and returning with $52,500,
Mr. Hank Bloomgarden.
Gentlemen, welcome back to "Twenty-one." This is getting to be like old
home week. You fellows been on for the past few weeks, been tying each
week, and tonight you're going to play for $2,000 a point. It should be a hum-
dinger of a game. Hank, last week on the program you told us of the trip you
took to Chattanooga, Tenn., to speak on behalf of the National Association for
Mental Health. What did you do this past week?
Bloomgarden. I made a trip on Thursday down to Washington, Jack, to attend
Senate hearings on medical research. I was very happy to attend and particu-
larly to run into some Senators I have known for the past couple of years
who are doing so much to bolster medical research and to try to expand it in
this country. Senator Lister Hill of AhTbama, Margaret Chase Smith of Maine,
Thye of Minnesota, John Pastore of Rhode Island ; John Fogarty of Rhode
Island on the Congress side is doing a wonderful job, too. Something very
exciting happened today, though
Barry. What's that?
Bloomgarden. Richard Neuberger of Oregon introduced some testimony be-
fore this same Senate committee calling for expenditui-e of half a billion dollars
for cancer research. I think this is something which is so wonderful and 1 wish
everybody would get behind it.
Barry. Well, very well said. Hank, and Jim, your hometown, your neighbor-
hood — is the neighborhood of Washington. We've been talking a little bit about
Washington here ; aren't you from that part of the country?
Snodgrass. Well, not exactly in Washington — it's Harford County, Md. See,
I grew — grew up on a farm there. My mother teaches school down there now.
Barry. Your mother teaches school? Hank, your mother teaches school too;
doesn't she?
Bloomgarden. Yes ; my mother teaches school, too. Right.
Barry. There must be a moral in this some place. I don't know what it is.
We'll get the moral in just a moment. Gentlemen, we are about to play
"Twenty-one." Please remember, it's at $2,000 a point. Hank, you stand to
win or lose — it's possible you could win or lose, $42,000, which means you could
be almost completely wiped out or you could run it up to almost $100,000. And
there's a lot at stake for you, too, Jim, so fellows, what do you say — let's play.
Take your places in the studios, don't forget to put on the earphones, and good
luck to both of you.
Neither player inside the studios can hear anything until I turn their
studios on, they can't see anybody in the studio audience or hear the studio
applause. I'm going to turn both studios on right now. Can you hear me all
right. Hank?
Bloomgarden. Very well, thank you.
Barry. How about you, Jim?
Snodgrass. Very good.
Barry. All right, gentlemen, get yourselves relaxed as much as you can,
calm down a bit, and we'll get on with the game in just a moment.
Friends, I was just wondering, before we get started, what kind of a day did
you have today. Did you start the day with plenty of get up and go, your
66 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
energy on the rise, something like this — only to find that somewhere in the
middle of the day your energy began to run downhill, like this — well, remember,
if you feel tired and run down your trouble may be due to what doctors call
iron deficiency anemia. And as you all know I'm sure by now, we call it tired
blood. Check with your doctor, and when tired blood is your problem, to feel
stronger fast, you take Geritol, the high-potency tonic, that begins to strengthen
tired blood in only 24 hours. Take Geritol liquid or you can take the tablet
form. Take it every day — you'll feel stronger fast, within 7 days, or you get
your money back — and, mothers, after sickness, help your child gain strength
fast. Give him Geritol, Jr., the ideal tonic for growing children.
Barry. And, now, on with our game. Hank Bloomgarden, I, you're — you
have it all at stake tonight at $2,000 a point. I'm going to turn your studio
ofE the air, and I'll get back to you in a moment. Jim, you have a great deal
at stake — you can win an awful lot of money here tonight. I think you know
how to play the game, we'll skip the explanation — the first categoi-y is called
"Movies and Movie Stars" — -you grade yourself, from 1 to 11. How many i>oints
do you want to try for?
Snodgrass. I'll take 11.
Barry. That's our hardest question — I assume you know a great deal about
the movies.
Snodgrass. I do.
Barry. Here is your question, for 11 points. When Snow White was banished
from her home in the queen's castle, she was helped by seven dwarfs. What
were the names of the seven dwarfs in the Disney version of "Snow White and
the Seven Dwarfs"?
Snodgrass. Uh, there was Sleepy.
Barry. That's one.
Snodgrass. One. Sneezy.
Barry. That's two.
Snodgrass. Ah, Dopey.
Barry. That is three.
Snodgrass. Ah, Happy.
Barry. Four. You've got three to go.
Snodgrass. Um. there was the grouchy — ah, Grumpy.
Barry. Grumpy is right. You've got five of 'em. Two to go.
Snodgrass. Um — the head gixy — ah — Doc.
Barry. That is right — you've got six of 'em. For a full 11 points give me one
more.
Snodgrass. Um, Bashful.
Barry. That's right, and you've got a full 11 points. You're off to a flying start,
Jim Snodgrass. and I'll get back to you in just a moment. Hank Bloomgarden,
defending your $52,500. at $2,000 a point — the category is "Movies and Movie
Stars." How many points do you want to try for?
Bloomgarden. I'll try for 10 points, please.
Barry. For 10 points — one of our more difficult questions. Tell us the names
of the actresses who played the title roles in the following movies. One, "Jeze-
bel," released in 1938 ; two, "That Hamilton Woman," released in 1941 ; three,
"Mildred Pierce," released in 1944 ; four, "Major Barbara," released in 1941,
and finally, "All About Eve," released in 1949. For 10 points — shall we take
them from the top?
Bloomgarden. Y'es, please,
Barry, First, "Jezebel," released in 1938.
Bloomgarden. "Jezebel, "Jezebel was played by Bette Davis.
Barry. That's correct. Second, "That Hamilton Woman." released in 1941,
Bloomgarden. "That Hamilton Woman" starred — ah- — Vivien Leigh.
Barry. Right. Third. "Mildred Fierce." released in 1944.
Bloomgarden. "Mildred Pierce" starred Joan Crawford.
Barry. Correct. You've got three of them. You have 2 to go for 10 points.
Fourth, "Major Barbara," released in 1941.
Bloomgarden. Oh, the new O'Neill play — wait a minute — Wendy Hiller—
Wendy Hiller.
Barry. That is correct. You've got four of them, you need one more. The
picture, "All About Eve." released in 1949.
Bloomgarden. "All About Eve" — Betty Davis starred in that, also Anne Bax-
ter — Eve was played by Anne Baxter.
Barry. You're right — for a full 10 points. I'll get back to you in just a
moment.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 67
Jim Snodgrass, you have 11 points. Tlie category is England — England. How
many points do you want, from 1 to 11.
Snodgrass. I'll try for 21— I'll take 10.
Barry. For 10 points, which if answered correctly would give you 21 — even
if you answer correctly. Jim. you'll have to wait because Hank Bloomgarden has
one turn still to go. Because you're trying for 21, if you need some extra time
you can have it. Here is your question for 10 points. The following are the
names of kings famous in the history of England. Tell us to what ruling family
each belonged. First, Richard the Second ; second, Henry the Seventh ; third,
Edward the Fifth ; and fourth, George the Sixth. Do you understand the
question?
Snodgrass. Uh, that's Richard the Second?
Barry. Richard the Second, yes.
Snodgrass. Right.
Barry. Do you understand it now? All right. \^'ant some extra time to
think it over?
Snodgrass. Please.
Barry. All right. Think it over — I'll tell you when your time is up.
Your time is up. For 10 point, which would give you 21 — but remember
Hank Bloomgarden still has a turn to go — I want you to tell us to what ruling
family each of the following kings belonged. First, Richard the Second.
Snodgrass. Richard the Second was the last of the Plantagenets.
Barry. Correct. Second, Henry the Seventh.
Snodgrass. Ah, he was in the House of Tudor.
Barry. That is correct. You've got half of them. Two more to go for 21
points. Edward the Fifth.
Snodgrass. Um, let's get the other one out of the way.
Barry. All right. That would be George the Sixth.
Snodgrass. Um, he's the House of Windsor.
Barry. That is correct. You need one more for 21 points. Edward the Fifth.
Snodgrass. Um — he was the — ah — the kid that was murdered by Richard
the Third in the Tower of London. Ah — ah — no, he wouldn't be a Tudor —
ah, he's of the House of York.
Barry. That's right, and you've got 21 points. Now, Jim Snodgrass, you
have 21. We're gonna see what's going to happen — I'm going to allow you to
listen — please do not divulge your score.
Hank Bloomgarden, you have 10 points. The category is England — how
many points do you want, from 1 to 11 ?
Bloomgarden. I'll try for 21, Jack. Eleven points, please.
Barry. You want to go all way and try for 21 ?
Bloomgarden. Right.
Barry. I can tell you now. Your opponent already has scored 21 points,
Hank, which means that if you answer your question correctly, we will have
another tie, and we'll have to play another game — this time ai $2,500 a point.
If you miss, you will be back down to zero, and you will lose $42,000. So think
this over very, very carefully. Here is your question for 11 points. Because
you're trying for 21, if you need some extra time of course you can have it.
Name the men who w-ere Prime Ministers when the following important events
in English history occurred : First, when the new country of Ghana officially
became a self-governing member of the British Commonwealth of Nations;
second, when Edward the Eighth abdicated the throne of England; third,
when for the first time a queen of England became Empress of India ; and
fourth, when a treaty was signed giving part of Ireland the status of Free
State. Do you understand all the question. Hank?
Bloomgarden. I, I understand it, but can you repeat the first two parts,
please?
Barry. The first two parts? Yes. I want you to name the men who were
Prime Ministers when these events took place. First, when the new country
of Ghana officially became a self-governing member of the British Common-
wealth of Nations'; and second, when Edward the Eighth abdicated the throne
of England. Got it all straight, now? Want some time to think it over?
Bloomgarden. Please.
Barry. OK, Hank, a lot's riding on it. Good luck to you.
All right. Hank, your time is up and here it is. For 11 points, which would
give you 21 and another tie or if missed would put you back down to zero and
cost you $42,000. I want you to name the men who were Prime Ministers when
the following important events in English history occurred. First, when the
68 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
new country of Ghana oflScially became a self-governing member of the British
Commonwealth of Nations.
Bloomgakden. Ghana. Ghana recently became a member of the Common-
wealth, so the Prime Minister would be the present Prime Minister of Britain — •
that's Harold Macmillan.
Barky. That's correct. You've got one. Two, when Edward the Eighth ab-
dicated the throne of England.
Bloomgarden. Edward the Eighth abdicated in 193G — the Prime Minister then
was — Stanley Baldwin.
Barry. That is right. You've got half of them. Two more to go. For
another tie. Or if missed, the inevitable. When for the first time a queen of
England became Empress of India.
Bloomgarden. The first queen of England to become Empress of India was —
Queen Victoria. The Pi'ime Minister who was responsible for that move was
Disraeli.
Barry. That's right. Fourth, when a treaty was signed giving part of Ireland
the status of Free State.
Bloomgarden. Ireland became a Free State — the Irish Rebellion I know took
place during the Second World War. First World War. I'm not sure —
Barry. At a time like this I don't want to press you for an answer, too much
is at stake. Hank, but take a few seconds more and then I will have to call for
your answer.
Bloomgarden. Wasn't it— wasn't it Lloyd George?
Barry. I'll — I'll have to call for a declarative statement, rather than one of
questioning. Hank.
Bloomgarden. I'll say it was Lloyd George — Lloyd George.
Barry. You'll say right, and you've got 21 points.
Gentlemen, I — Jim. you heard it as well as I did — I don't have to explain it
to you. Hank successfully answered the question — you both ended up with 21
points, and we have another tie game. Now fellows, I think you both know
what we do in the case of a tie — we take off the 21 points, we start a brand new
game, but this time we'll be playing for $2,500 a point. Let me figure it up
roughly what one of you could win or lose. Twenty by — well, it's almost — it's
over $50,000. So fellows at this point I think you both need to relax. Will you
do thatV Simmer down a second. We'll get playing this next game for over
$50,000 in just a moment.
While they're relaxing, if they can, if those of you at home have been wanting
to take off weight, here's the sensible way to really slim down. Watch how you
can lose weight, yet eat plenty.
Announcer. What's the best way to reduce — eat what you want, or starve
yourself? Leaving the table with a full stomach, or an empty one? Empty
stomach? Wrong. A half empty stomach causes hunger tantrums, makes you
nibble between meals, probably stuff yourself at your next meal. That's why
rigid starvation diets are not only dangerous but usually don't work. Now with
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pounds as you wish or money back. And new pleasant-tasting RDX biblets are
safe, contain no dangerous drugs, no hormones — so lose ugly fat fast with RDX,
full-stomach reducing plan. Get RDX at your drugstore today.
Barry. I'd say that was mighty good advice to follow, wouldn't you? Re-
member, if you want to lose weight, try RDX.
Incidentally, all questions used on "Twenty-one" have been authenticated for
accuracy and order of difficulty by the editorial board of the Encyclopedia
Britannica. Also, our gratitude to the publication TV Radio Life for voting
"Twenty-one" the best quiz program on television. Thank you very much.
All right, gentlemen — here we go again. Two thousand five hundred dollars
a point — I've been informed from the people at the side here that. Hank, $52,500
is at stake. If you shoTild lose by a score of 21. On the other hand, if vou
should win you'll be over $110,000— $104,000— or $105,000. So, both of you take
it easy. I'll get back in just a moment.
Jim, of course all of this applies to you too — I don't mean to neglect .yon at
all — you have — you could win $52,000, so play very carefully.
The category is Presidents of the United States. How many points do you
want from 1 to 11 ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS G9
Snodgrass. I'll take 10.
Barky. For 10 points, identify the Presidents durins whose presidential cam-
paigns the following slogans were u.sed. First, "A Chicken in Every Pot, A Car
in Every Garage," used in the campaign of a former Secretary of Commerce;
second. "He Kept Us Out of War," third, "A Full Dinner Pail," the slogan of a
man who was relected after leading the Nation through the Spanish-American
War ; fourth, "A Public Office is a Public Trust," the slogan of the man who
as President had to deal with the panic of 1893, and fifth, "Tippecanoe and
Tyler Too." Shall we take it from the top?
Snodgrass. Yes.
Barry. First, the Presidents during whose presidential campaigns the follow-
ing slogans were used. First, "A Chicken in Every Pot, A Car in Every Garage,"
used in the campaign of a former Secretary of Commerce.
Snodgrass. Uh — I would say that is — ah — Herbert Hoover.
Barry. Yoit would say right. Got the first part. Second, "He Kept Us Out
of War."
Snodgrass. Ah — that would be Woodrow Wilson.
Barry. That also is correct. Three, "A Full Dinner Pail," the slogan of a
man who was reelected after leading the Nation through the Spanish- American
War.
Snodgrass. Well, that has to be William McKinley.
Barry. It is indeed. You've got 3 of them ; you need 2 more to go for a full
10 points.
Fourth, "A Public Office Is a Public Trust," the slogan of a man who, as Presi-
dent, head to deal with the panic of 1893.
Snodgrass. Ah — that is Grover Cleveland.
Barry. Correct. You need one more. "Tippacanoe and Tyler Too."
Snodgrass. Ah — "Tippecanoe and Tyler Too" — was William Henry Harrison.
Barry. You're right and you've got a full 10 points. I'll be back to you in a
moment.
Hank Bloomgarden, $52,.50O at stake, at .$2,500 a point. That's an awful lot.
The category, "Presidents of the United States." How many do you want to try
for from 1 to 11?
Bloomgarden. I'm giving this some thought. I'll try for 10 points. Jack.
Barry. For 10 points, identify the Presidents during whose presidential cam-
paigns the following slogans were used : First, "A Chicken in Every Pot, a Car
in Every Garage," used in the campaign of a former Secretary of Commerce ;
second, "He Kept Us Out of War" ; third, "A Full Dinner Pail," the slogan of a
man who was reelected after leading the Nation through the Siianish-American
War ; fourth, "A Public Office Is a Public Trust," the slogan of the man who, as
President, had to deal with the panic of 1893 ; and fifth, "Tippecanoe and Tyler
Too." Tliat's the question for 10 points. Shall we take it from the beginning?
Bloomgarden. A Chicken and Tippecanoe, very familiar.
Barry. We'd better — we'd better take it right from the start ; all right?
Bloomgarden. Please, yes.
Barry. The first part — "A Chicken in Every Pot, a Car in Every Garage"
used in the campaign of a former Secretary of Commerce.
Bloomgarden. That was — that's associated with Herbert Hoover.
Mr. Barry. Is that your answer?
BLOOiiGARDEN. "A chickeu in every car — uh.
Barry'. "A Chicken in Every Pot."
Bloomgarden. Yes — You can see what this is doing to me
Barry. All right. You've got the first part — don't press yourself any further.
Second, "He kept us out the dinner pail — no — "He kept us — Hank, take a moment
here — second, "He Kept Us Out of War."
Bloomgarden. "He Kept Us Out of War." That's, that's — ah — Woodrow
Wilson.
Barry. That's correct
Bloomgarden. Before we go into the war
Barry. Third, third — now, let's get serious here because there's an awful lot
of money at stake. Third, "A Full Dinner Pail," the slogan of a man who was
reelected after leading the Nation through the Spanish-American War.
Bloomgarden. "A Full Dinner Pail," that was — that's known with President
McKinley.
Barry. Correct. Fourth, "A Public Office Is a Public Trust," the slogan of the
man who, as President, had to deal with the panic of 1893.
Bloomgarden. Thafs Grover Cleveland.
70 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Bakey. You've got four parts correct. For your full 10 points, tell me now^ —
"Tippecanoe and Tyler Too."
Bloomgarden. "Tippecanoe and Tyler Too," well, Tippecanoe was the nickname
for President William Henry Harrison, so that would be William Henry Harri-
son. William Henry Harrison.
Barky. You're right. And you've got a full 10 points.
Jim Snodgrass, you have 10 points. The category is "The Twenties"- — "The
Twenties" — I'm going to have to ask you to speed up a little bit, Jim — and how
many points do you want from 1 to 11?
Snodgbass. I have 10, I'll try for 21. Give me 11.
Barry. Eleven points — if you need some extra time on this, of course you can
have it. I will name five writers who won the Pulitzer Prize in Letters during
the twenties — you tell us for what work each won. First, Stephen Vincent
Benet ; second, Elmer Rice ; third, Edna Ferber ; fourth, Edith Wharton ; fifth,
Thornton Wilder. Understand the question all right?
Snodgrass. Yes, I tliink so.
Barry. Want some time to think it over?
Snodgrass. Please.
Barry. All right. Please remember if ycu answer correctly, Hank still has
one turn to go. I'll tell you when your time is up. Good luck. Jim Snodgrass.
Your time is up. For a full 11 points, wliich would give you 21, I'll name 5
writers who won the Pulitzer Prize — you tell us for what work each won ;
Stephen Vincent Benet.
Snodgrass. Ah, Stephen Vincent Benet — ah, that would be for his poem "John
Brown's Body."
Barry. Correct. Elmer Rice.
Snodgrass. Elmer Rice — ah, for his play "Street Scene."
Barry. Correct. Edna Ferber.
Snodgrass. Uh, that was her novel, ah — "So Big."
Barry. That is right. Fourth, Edith Wharton.
Snodgrass. Edith Whai-ton. "The Age" — "The Age of" — ah — "Innocence."
Barry. Correct. One more, which would give you 21 points again. Thornton
Wilder.
Snodgrass. Would that be for "The Bridge at San Luis Rey"?
Barry. I will have to ask for a declarative statement, rather than a question.
Snodgrass. Well, then it was for — ah, "The Bridge at San Luis Rey."
Barry. You're right — and you've got 21 points again. I'm going to let you
listen now. Jim, but don't divulge your score — OK?
Hank Bloomgarden. you have 10 points. The category is "The Twenties."
How many points do you want from 1 to 11 ?
Bloomgarden. Jack, I'll take the plunge, I'll try for 21.
Barry. You'll try 11 points.
Bloomgarden. That's right.
Barry. I can tell yon now — your opponent already, once again, has 21 points.
If you answer correctly, we'll have — we'll have another tie. If you miss. Hank,
if you miss, you will lose $52..500 and will be completely wiped out. Here is
your question. If you need some extra time you can have it. I'm going to name
five writers who won the Pulitzer Prize in Letters during the twenties. Tell us
for what work each won. First. Stephen Vincent Benet: second, Elmer Rice:
third. Edna Ferber : fourth. Edith Whnrton : fifth, Thornton Wilder. I^nderstand
the question? Want some time to thinlc it over?
Bloomgarden. Would yon. could you please repeat those?
Barry. Yes. Stephen Vincent Benet. Elmer Rice. Edna Ferber. Edith Whar-
ton, nnd Thornton Wilder. Want some time — extra time. Hank?
Bloomgarden. Please.
Barry. I'll tell you when your time is up. and sood luck to you.
For 11 points, which would give you 21 and another tie, or if missed would cost
yon the entire amount of money you've already won. I'll name five writers who
won the Pulitzer Prize in Letters. You tell me for what work each won. First,
Stephen Vincent Benet.
Bloomgarden. Stephen Vincent Benet won for his poem, "John Brown's Body."
Barry. Correct. Elmer Rice.
RLOOArGATjDEN. Elmer Tiice. He won for his play "Street Scene."
Barry. That is correct. Third, Edna Ferber.
Bioo^rGARDEN. Edna Ferber. Can I come back to that please, Jack?
Barry. Yes. you can. Edith Wharton.
Bloomgarden. Edith Warton. She won — ah — ah— the novel. "The Age of
Innocence."
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 71
Barry. Correct. Thornton Wilder.
Bloomgarden. Thornton Wilder. With his — ah — his novel, "The Bridge at
San Luis Key."
Barry. You've got four of them. If you give me one more there'll be another
tie. \\'e'll play another game at $3,000 a point. If you miss it, you'll lose .$52,500.
Edna Ferber.
I hate to press you, but our time is running out, Hank.
Bloomgarden. I'll say it was her novel "So Big."
Barry. You're right — you have 21 points.
Fellows, our time's running out — see you next week for $3,000 a point. Good-
night, Jim. Goodnight, Hank. I'll be back in a minute with an important
message about one of our other sponsor's five products. Here it is, right here.
Announcer. If you ever walk the floor at night, unable to fall asleep, your
nerves on edge, try the effective new aid to sleep that relaxes you and helps
you fall asleep gently. It's called Sominex. The next time you can't sleep, take
Soniinex, as directed, for 100 percent safe sleep. Sominex contains no narcotics,
no barbiturates, no bromide, and it's nonhabit forming. What's more, Sominex's
combination of special ingredients helps calm down jittery nerves, helps you
feel more relaxed. So if you ever can't sleep, take Sominex as directed for
natural-like sleep with 100 percent safety. In the morning you wake up re-
freshed, without morning-after grogginess. Get Sominex at your drugstore ;
no prescription needed. It's new, it's effective, it's Sominex. Take as directed
for 100 percent safe sleep.
Barry. Remember what I told you about Geritol, man ; antl be with ns next
week at $3,000 a point. It'll be the biggest game we ever had on this program.
Goodnight everybody and thank you for being with us. Goodnight.
Mr. LisHMAX. Mr. Snodgrass, could you tell the subcouiniittee tlie
events wliich led up to your becoming a contestant on "Twenty-one."
Mr. Snodgrass. In March of 1957 I returned from a trip to Europe
and I was looking for work. I needed some money. I had been look-
ing for a job. I met a friend that I had known in Europe and he had
been watching these quiz programs and he had himself tried to get
on and had not made it but he suggested that I try it.
So I went to the offices of Barry & Enright and asked to take the
test for "Tic-Tac-Dough." He had told me that this was the pre-
liminary step. So I took the test for "Tic-Tac-Dough." They told
me that they would call me, for me not to call them. I just assumed
that was it. ,
A few clays later — it was within a week — I got a letter from a IMiss
York of Barry & Enright, would I please cafl her. So I called her.
She said that I had done so well in the test for "Tic-Tac-Dough"
would I be interested in taking the test for "Twenty-one" ?
I said certainly. I know that the consolation prize on "Twenty-one"
was $500. On "Tic-Tac-Dough" it was a wristwatch. I called to
make an appointment to take the test for "Twenty-one" and was told
to allow several hours for it. I made an appointment to go in the
next day and take the test. I did.
It was a 363-question test whicli took several hours. I was inter-
viewed at this time by a Mr. Bob Eubin. Again tliey told me that we
will get in touch with you.
Two or three days later I was called. They asked me to make an ap-
pointment to see a Mr. Albert Freedman. I did, which was to be, I
think, for Tuesday of the next week. I went to see Mr. Freedman.
]\Ir. Ltsiimax. Just a minute. Will you please identify for the
record who Mr. Freedman is?
^Ir. SxoDGRASs. j\Ir. Freedman, at the time I was on the show, was
the producer of the show,
Mr. LiSHMAN. He was employed by Barry & Enright?
72 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Snodgrass. He was employed by Barry & Enright, so I had my
appointment witli Mr. Freedman and we discussed various things. It
was all conversation. I left there feelmg that I had done very
pooi'ly — I am not a good interviewee — thinking that is the last I'll
hear of this.
Later that week — I liad seen him on Tuesday — I think it was on
Friday he called me, would I please come in and be a standby for the
program the following IMonday . I went in and reported to studio 6-B
as he had asked me to. I was made up.
He came into the dressing room that I was in and told me that my
appearance there that night did not mean that I would automatically
become a contestant on the show and he thanked me for coming. That
I was to do — ^as things were suggested, we would have the dress re-
hearsal and so forth, and if they ran through the other contestants, all
of whom were ahead of me, I would then be on the show. We had the
dress reliearsal and I sat through that shoAv in tlie wings.
Then I didn't hear from Mr. Freedman for the remainder of that
week. I think it was probably Monday aftei-noon I called him and
asked him if he wanted me to be a standby again. He said "No.'- I was
not on that Monday night. Then later that week lie called me again
and asked me to come into liis office, which I did.
He told me that I would definitely be on the following Monday. I
had looked good in the dress reliearsal which I imagine they watched
through monitors. He suggested I have my teetli cleaned and to wear
an off-white shirt, not a white shirt.
It was at this time I think, tliat — it was either this time or the
appointment I had with him for the next day — where he told me what
the questions and answers were to be for the first show.
Ml. Lisiiman. Did he take you to Mr. Enright at this time ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes. I was also taken into Mr. Enriglit's office and
introduced to Mr. Enriglit. We had a long conversation in Mr.
Enright's office on very general topics.
Mr. IjTSMMAisr. Coulcl you tell the committee what happened at this
interview between you and Mr. Freedman while Mr. Enright was
present ?
Mr. Snodgrass. We talked, as I said, on many things. Like who
were my favorite television comedians. Did I like comedy or did I
prefer tragedy. He asked me what parts of the country I liad lived
in. I had gone to school in (Cleveland. He said fine. I was from
Maryland. That meant the Baltimore and Washington newspapers
Avould be interested. They were looking for press coverage.
Mr. Lisiiman. Did you afterward have a subsequent meeting with
Mr. Freedman alone ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes.
Mr. Lisiiman. Could you tell us what happened at that meeting?
Mr. Snodgrass. I went into his office and he took some papers out of
the desk drawer and said I will ask you some questions, which he pro-
ceeded to do, to see how well I could answer tliem. Tlien, after I had
answered a series of questions, he said "Tliese are tlie questions that
are to be used on Monday night."
Mr. Lisiiman. Monday night of what date ?
Mr. Snodrass. This would be April 22.
Mr. IjIsiiiman. Was tliat your first appearance, April 22 ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 73
Mr. Snodgrass. This was my first appearaiico ; yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. 1957?
Mr. SnodgrxVss. 1957.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Before I go along witli wluit went on between you
and Mr. Friedman, I wonld like to ask, when you applied to become
a contestant, did you do so in the belief that you were to be a par-
ticipant in an honest contest of knowledge ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, I think so. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. At the time of making your application and before
you saw eitlier Mv. Fi-eedman or INIr. Enright, did you have any
reason to suspect that these shows were fixed ?
Mr. Snod(}Rass. No; none wliatsoever.
Mr. LisiiMAN. You did not believe tliem to be fixed ^
Mr. Snodgrass. No.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Did Mr. Freedman explain to you why he was giving
you the questions an.d answers in advance ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes. He told me that he was giving me these ques-
tions and answers so that I would be at ease on the program and not
make a fool of myself.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Did he tell you lunv many games you would play
when you first appeared ?
Mr. Snodgrass. No. I knew that I would not lose or miss out that
first night, that I was on the program.
Mr. DisiTMAN. Did he indicate to you at that meeting tluit after
the first night he would continue to give you questions and answers?
Mr. Snodgrass. No: I don't think he did.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Did you appear on that program on April 22, 1957?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, I did.
Mr. Lisii]\rAN. Were the questions and answers that were asked of
you and the answers given by you the same as those that had been
previously supplied by Mr. Freedman ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes; that is right.
Mr. LiSHMAN. After you appeared on April 22, 1957, for the first
time, did you have lunch with ^Ir. Freedman ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes; I liad lunch with him the next day.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Where did you have lunch ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Is it the Red Horse Inn on East 58th Street in
New York. I think it is that. It is either the Red Horse or the Red
Coach. I am not sure.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Coadd you state the conversation that took place be-
tween you and Mr. Freeman at that luncheon meeting ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Well, again we discussed a wide variety of subjects.
I do not think we really discussed the television show itself very much
except that I had done very well — except that I had hurried too
much. In my next appearance I should be more relaxed and more
at ease and not to answer as quickly and take more time and be more
relaxed about it.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you ever meet a TV colmnnist with Mr.
Freedman ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, I did.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What happened at that meeting ?
Mr. Snodgrass. There was going to be a week layover for a spec-
tacular w'hich occupied this spot on the network for the next week.
74 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
So they were iisin^ this as a holdover. They had this TV columnist
in. They were going to bill it like a sports match of Bloomgarden
versus Snodgrass, or Snodgrass challenging Bloomgarden, as if it
were going to be a boxing match.
]Mr. LisHMAX. Before you had that interview with the press agent,
did you have a meeting with Mr. Freedman ?
Mr. SxoDGRASs. Yes.
Mr, Ltshman. What was your conversation about with Mr.
Freedman ?
Mr. Snodgrass. We probably, or we did arrange questions and re-
hearse them for the following Monday night.
JMr. Ltshman. Was that the first time you knew you would appear
on subsequent shows?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes. I had also been told at this interview that
they had decided to have a series of ties between me and Mr. Bloom-
garden.
jMr. Ltshman. Did he explain why he wished the series of ties ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Well, that it would be good for building the pop-
ularity or the rating of the Show. I was also told at this time that
Mr. Bloomgarden knew of this and it was agi*eeable with him.
Mr. Ltstiman. Did you observe when you were being rehearsed or
assisted in these programs that use was made of a stopwatch in order
to make certain that the program would conform to a time schedule?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, the stopwatch was iTsed in every case. The
counts and everything was timed.
Mr. Ltshman. Were yoiT timed even as to the exact seconds which
you would hesitate before giving an answer?
Mr. Snodgrass. That's right, yes, sir.
Mr. Ltshman. Now, Mr. Snodgrass, did there come a time that you
were appearing on this contest that you were supposed to lose ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes. There came to time when I was supposed to
lose.
Mr. Ltshman. Will you tell us when that was ?
]\Ir. Snodgrass. That would have beeiT the night
Mr. Ltshman. Was it May 28, May 20 ?
Mr. Snodgrass. May 20th would have been ; yes, sir. There was no
program on May 28.
Mr. Ltshman. Would you explaiTi just how you were supposed to
lose and who instructed you to lose?
Mr. Snodgrass. Mr. Freedman instructed me to lose. It was to be
a question, I should imagine it was English literature, quotations, or
American literature perhaps.
Mr. Ltshman. At this point, Mr. Snodgrass, I would like to hand
you a paper and ask you to identify it and read it into the record.
Mr. Snodgrass. "May IT, 1957." I am sorry, Mr. Lisliman. Do
you want me to identify it ?
Mr. Ltshman. Yes, I would like you to identify it and tell us what
it is.
Mr. Snodgrass. This letter is a letter that I wrote to myself after
being coached by Mr. Freedman. This was in a registered envelope.
It was written on May 17, before my appearance on May 20 :
May 17, 1957, 231 West 16th Street—
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 75
Mr. LisiTMAN. Just before you read it, is this one of a series of
letters which you ^rote to youi^elf in advance of appearing on the
show wherein you stated the questions and answers that were given
to you prior to your appearance ?
Mr. Snodgrass. It is, sir. (Continuing:)
To WJiom It May Concern:
The following are the questions for the first game on the television quiz pro-
gram to take place at 9 o'clock Monday evening, May 20, 1957.
Round 1 : Category "American Literature," 11 points :
Identify the major American poets who wrote the following lines of poetry :
"I hear America singing . . . the varied carols" (Walt Whitman) ; "Fog
comes in on little cat feet" (Carl Sandburg) ; "Hope is a thing with feathers, it
whispers to the soul" (Emily Dickinson) ; "I shot an arrow in the air, where
it fell I know not where" (Henry Wadsworth Longfellow).
Round 2 : Category "The Armed Forces," 10 points :
Where are the present academies of the following branches of the United
States Armed Forces: Army (U.S. Militarj^ Academy at West Point, N.Y.) ;
Navy (U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis, Md.) : Coast Guard (The Coast
Guard Academy is at New London, Conn.) ; Merchant Marine (King's Point,
Long Island) ; Air Corps (While the Air Corps Academy is being constructed
at Colorado Springs the pi'esent academy is in Denver, Colo.).
According to the plan I am to miss the first question, specifically the lines by
Emily Dickinson. I've been told to answer Ralph Waldo Emerson. I have de-
cided not to "take the fall" but to answer the question correctly.
James Snodgrass.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr, Chairman, I would like to have a copy of this
letter made a part of the record. I would like to have the envelope.
The Chairman. He just read the letter into the record.
Mr. LisHMAN. I would like to have the envelope in which this letter
was sent to himself.
The Chairman. Let the envelope be received for the record.
(The photostatic copy of the envelope follows :)
76
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOW^S
IQfelSTMFD
Mr. JmmB J;»o agrees
231 ^e;?t If-tfe &t.
ii«\f: lO-^ii lis, H*T.
Mr. LiSHMAN. The register number is 416200. What did you mean
when you said you would not "take the fall" in that letter?
Mr. SxoDGR.\ss. I had been instructed to miss this question. I
decided to answer it correctly. If I had missed I would have lost and
have been off the program,
Mr. LiSHMAN. Why did you do that at this particular stage of the
affairs. You had been receiA'ing questions and answers prior to this
and going along. Why at this time did you decide to balk at this
particular question ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I think maybe way down deep inside there was a
hope that things would work out fair and square. Also, I knew the
answer. I had been told the answer.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I appreciate your feeling, Mr. Snodgrass, because I
admire Emily Dickinson, to. It was your refusal on esthetic grounds
that you really did not want to go ahead ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I suppose so.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 77
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you tell the producers at any time prior to the
show that you were going to refuse to "take a dive" on that particular
question ?
Mr. Snodgrass. No ; I did not.
Mr. LisHMAN. So they started the performance secure in the belief
that on this occasion you would, as on previous occasions, lose at the
point you were supposed to lose ?
Mr. Snodgilvss. That's right.
Mr. LisiiMAx. And you did not do that ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I did not do that; no, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. We are about to see a showing of this particular
show. Before we have it I would like to ask you, after you had given
the correct answer to the consternation of the master of ceremonies and
all concerned, what happened '\
Mr. Snodgrass. During the break for the middle commercial be-
tween the two games, suddenly, as had never happened before while I
was on the show, Mr. Enright and Mr. Freedman came down to the
isolation booths to ask me if I was all right, to ask me if I wanted to
go on, to which I said "Yes," and they also spoke to Hank Bloom-
garden. I could not hear what they said to him. After the com-
mercial when we were back on the air I tliink you will see that Jack
Bariy offers us the chance to stop there for the evening. But I said
"No." I would go on.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Snodgrass, from that point on
Mr, Snodgr^vss. I was on my own ; yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. You were on your own.
Mr. Snodgrass, did there come a time in that program when you
gave a correct answer which was ruled wrong?
Mr. Snodgrass. It was either a correct answer which was ruled
wi'ong, or Ml". Bloomgarden gave a wrong answer which was ruled
right.
Mr. Lishman. So that the producers were oblijjed because of the
public outcry to have you return to another match with IVIr. Bloom-
garden 'I
Mr. Snodgr;\ss. That is right. This was a question where I was
to name the five classifications of vertebrae in the spinal column. I
started with the ones I knew and I said first of all the sacrum, and
was called wrong, that the answer card had the word "sacral." As Mr.
Bloomgarden named the five classes of vei"tebrae and he said "coc-
cyx" and the outci-^^ was that if I was wrong for "sacral" he should
have been called wrong for "coccyx," the adjective form was "coc-
cygeal." If he was right I was right and if I was wrong he was
wrong.
Mr. Lishman. Did you answer the first question where you were
absolutely on your own correct h^ ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes: I did.
Mr. Lishman. And subsequently, becau^e of the outcry is it a fact
that you came back to appear on another program ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Lishman. Against Mr. Bloomgarden?
Mr. Snodgrass. Against Mr. Bloomgarden.
Mr. Lishman. Were voii assisted in this second program?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes; I was.
52294— 60— pt. 1 6
78 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LisHMAN. Do you know the reason why you were given assist-
ance and was this your final appearance ?
Mr. Snodgrass. This was my final appearance. I was g^iven assist-
ance so I would not do again what I had done the week before. Wlien
I had been called wrong on the vertebrae I went off the air that night
losing by a score of 21 points, which at this time was multiplied by
$3,500 a point, which is
Mr. IRISHMAN. $73,000.
Mr. Snodgrass. $73,000.
Mr. LisHMAN. That created a great deal of confusion, did it not,
when the producers saw themselves losing $73,000 unexpectedly ?
Mr. Snodgr.\ss. Yes; it did. Mr. Freedman came to the dressing
room after the show saying that I had rained him. The budget had
l>een knocked back and that Bariy & Enright were allotted so much.
On this one show we had gone so far over the budget they just didn't
know what they were going to do.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did they say that you had ruined his career ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes; he said that.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Did they say anything about ruining your career ?
Mr. Snodgrass. No ; they did not.
JMr. LisHMAN. On the last and final appearance that you made
against the will of the producers, what assistance were you given ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I was given assistance. We were going to play the
last game over again. "We started off again at $3,500 a point. I was
given assistance on that, as it was explained to me, they could not have
me lose that one altogether. So we were tied on that one. We would
play then for $4,000 a point which would be of two rounds. The first
question I was not given any answers on. So by this time they knew
if they gave me the questions and answers I would answer. So if I
Avere going to miss I was to miss the first question. They gave me the
questions and answers for the second round. So least I would have
II points, and they would only lose by 10 points.
Mr. LiSHMAN, So they were doing two things : They were recoup-
ing some of their $73,000 unexpected loss by this final appearance.
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And they were easing you out in such a manner that
the public would never know why you were eased out ?
Mv. Snodgrass. That is right ; yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I would like now to ask for a showing of this May
20, 1957, show on which the incidents that the witness has testified
to occurred. Also that a transcript of the sound track be incorporated
into the record.
(The kinescopic reproduction was shown.)
(The transcript of the sound track follows :)
Barry. Good evening. I'm Jack Berry. To date, Hank Bloomgarden has won
over $.50,000. Because of a series of ties, he must play the next game at $3,000
a point, which means that in just a few brief minutes he could increase his
money winnings to over $100,000 or, he could lose all of his winnings. To learn
the outcome, let's meet our first two players as Geritol, the high-potency tonic
that helps you feel stronger fast, presents "Twenty-one."
Announcer. Back for the fourth v^eek — Mr. James Snodgrass. And returning
with $52,000, Mr. Hank Bloomgarden.
Barry. Gentlemen, welcome back to "Twenty-one." This is getting to be like
old home week — your familiar faces here on the television screen standing be-
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 79
side me each week. Have you been getliug lots of advice during tliis past weelv,
Hank?
Bloomqarden. Oh, I certainly have, Jack. Not only from family and friends,
but from hundreds of people all over the country who have taken the trouble
to write me and I certainly appreciate their interest. I certainly appreciate
their advice too. But you know, it's a peculiar thing, this is just an individual
game, and I guess I have to make up my own mind as to what to do, notwith-
standing all of this wonderful and thouiihtful advice that I've gotten.
Barry. I'm sure people in writing telling you how you should play the game
are doing it really with your best interest, but as you say, you have to play it
the way you see tit.
Bloomgarden. Right.
Barry. How about you, did you get any advice, Jim?
Snodgrass. Well, yes, I have been getting lots of advice, but I'm afraid it's —
it's just adding up to confusion with me.
Barry. A\'ell — let's hope that confusion will not overrule the wonderful think-
ing you have been doing so far.
Gentlemen, you are as familiar as anybody with what has happened here.
You tied a number of times. We're going to play at $3,000 a point, which means
that $6.3,000 in overall is at stake. Hank, you could either be wiped out com-
pletely or you could end up with over $100,000. Jim, you could wind up with
$63,000, or anywhere in between that. Hank, you know in the excitement of
the game last week, I sot kind of carried awny myself, ;uid mentione<l a number
of times to you how much you could lose. I didn't mean, it to in any way un-
nerve you. anrl I'll try very hard not to do that again tonight.
And now, if you fellows are ready to play, suppose you take your places in
the studios, put on your earphones and the best of luck to both of you.
Neither player inside can hear anything until I turn their studios on, they
cannot see anybody in the studio audience, nor can they hear the studio ap-
plause. I'm going to turn both studios on right now. Can you hear nie, Jim?
Snodgrass. Fine, thank you, Jack.
Barry. How about you. Hank?
Bloomgarden. Very well, thank you.
Barry. All right, fellows, the most monumental game in the history of our
program is about to take place. I think you deserve a few seconds to relax in
there and get ready for the big — the giant game about to come — so, take it easy
if you will. And we'll get on with the game in just a moment, but first I wonder,
if we could turn the cameras around, would we see something like this?
Female Voice. Ed, you know how tired you have been feeling lately — here's
Jack B;ir)\v. He's pr(!))al>ly going to talk about Geritol. You know, he's talking
about people like you, so listen.
Male Voice. OK, Jane.
Barry. Thank you, ma'am. Fact is, I am talking to your husband and to
everyone who feels tired and rundown. Remember, your weak, rundown con-
dition may be due to what doctors call iron deficiency anemia. We call it much
more simply "tired blood." Check with your doctor, and to feel stronger fast —
take Geritol. the high-potency tonic that begins to strengthen tired blood in just
24 hours. Take the liquid or take the tablet and take them every day. And if
tired blood is your problem, you'll feel stronger fast — within 7 days or your
money back. And mothers, remember after sickness help your child gain
strength fast, give him Geritol, Jr., the ideal tonic for growing children.
Now, on with the game. Hank, remember, $3,000 a point, your $.52,000 is at
stake and I'll get back to you in a moment.
All right, Jim, it's unnecessary to point out the rules of the game, you've
played it enough, you have to try to get to 21 as fast as you can. The first
category is American — American literature. You grade yourself — how many
points do you want from 1 to 11 ?
Snodgrass. I'll take 11, please.
Barry. That would be our most difficult question on American Literature.
11 points.
I will read you lines from four of America's greatest poets — in each — in each
case tell us the name of the poet— first, "I hear America singing—the very carols
I hear" : second, "The fog comes on little cat feet" ; third, "Hope is the thing
with feathers that perches in the soul" ; fourth, "I shot an arrow into the air —
it fell to earth, I know not where." What I want is the names of the poets.
Shall we take them one at a time?
80 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Snodgrass. Ah, yes, please.
Barrt. All right, f()r 11 points. First, "I hear America singing — the very
carols I hear."
Snodgrass. Ah, that is — Walt Whitman.
Barry. That is right. Second, "The fog comes on little cat feet."
Snodgrass. That is ah — the poem — '"The Fog" or "Fog" by Carl Sandburg.
Barry. That's right. Three, "Hope is the thing with feathers, that i^erches
in the sonl."
Snodgrass. "Hope is the thing with feathers — that perches in the soul." That
is — ah — actually one of my favorite poets — Emily Dickinson.
Barry. You're right. Fourth and finally, which would give you a full 11
point.s — and have you off to a flying start, "I shot an arrow into the air — it fell
to earth, I know not where."
Snodgrass. Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.
Barky. You're right. For a full 11 points. All right, Jim. you couldn't get
off to a better start and I'll get back to you in just a moment.
Hank Bloomgarden, here we go — for $3,000 a point. The category, American
literature. How many points do you want from 1 to 11 '?
Bloomgarden. Ten.
Barry. Ten points — one of our more difficult questions. Tell us the name and
the author of the books in which the following are major characters. First,
Victor Joppolo, J-o-p-i>o-l-o, whose attempts to rebuild a war-torn town are
brought to an abrupt end by order of a superior ; second, Dick Diver, writer and
psychologist, whose marriage to a patient was followed by the dissipation of his
genius and the ruin of his promising career; third, when a school building col-
lapsed and killed seven — several children as he had predicted, V\'illie Stark was
catapulted into a powerful political career which ended with his murder ; I
want the name and author of the books in which the following are major char-
acters. Shall we take it one at a time?
Bloomgarden. Please.
Barry. Victor Joppolo, whose attempts to rebuilt a war-torn town are brought
to an abrupt end by order of a superior.
Bloomgarden. \'ietor Joppolo appeared in John Hersey's book "A Bell for
Adano."
Barry. Correct. Dick Diver, writer and psychologist, whose marriage to a
patient was followed by the dissipation of his genius and the ruin of his prom-
ising career.
Bloomgarden. Dick Diver — that was in "Tender is the Night" by F. Scott
Fitzgerald.
Barry. Also correct. Finally, for 10 points, when a school building collapsed
and killed several children as he had predicted, Willie Stark was catapulted
into a powerful xwlitical ■career which ended with his murder. For 10 points.
Bloomgarden. Willie Stark — that was in "All The King's Men."
Barry. Right.
Bloomgarden. "All The King's Men" was written by — Robert Penn Warren.
Barry. You're right — and you've got ten points. I'll get back to you in just a
moment, Hank.
Jim Snodgrass, you have 11 point.s — the category — Armed Forces. Armed
Forces. How many points do you want?
Snodgrass. I have 11?
Barry. Yes.
Snodgrass. I'll take 10 please — get to 21 if I can.
Barry. You're going to take 10 points, which would give you 21 if answered
correctly. Because you are ti'yiiig for 21, you may have some extra time if you
need it. If you do answer correctly, please remember that Hank's — Hank Bloom-
garden still has one more turn to go — so hold on, even if you get 21. Here it
i.s — for 10 points. Give me the jiresent locations of the training academies of —
first, the U.S. Army; second, the U.S. Navy; third, the U.S. Merchant ]\Lirine;
fourth, the U.S. Air Force; and fifth, the U.S. Coast Guard. Want some time
to think this over?
Snodgrass. Ah, yes — please.
Barry. All right — I'll tell you when your time is up.
Snodgrass. All right. Thank you.
Barry. Your time is up, Jim — ^let me repeat the question. This is an important
moment for you, ten points would give you 21. I want the locations — the present
locations of the training academies of the U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, U.S. Merchant
Marine, U.S. Air Force, and U.S. Coast Guard.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 81
Si^fODGRASs. All right — uh — let me see if I can sft the Army, Navy and ah—
Coast Guard first.
Barry. All right — how about U.S. Army?
Snodgrass. That is — ah — the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y.
I^ARRY. Correct. You asked next for the U.S. Navy.
Snodgrass. Yes, sir. Ah, that is — the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis, Md.
Barry. That is correct. Did you ask now for the
Snodgrass. Coast Guai'd, please.
Barry. Coast Guard. All right. Let's skip down to the Coast Guard.
Snodgrass. That — ah — the Coast Guard is in — ah — New London, Conn.
Barry. Correct. You have three of them. You need two more for 21 points.
U.S. Merchant Marine.
Snodgrass. Let's see — it used to be at Sheepshead Bay — it's ah — Kings Point
on Long Island, here in New York.
Barry. Correct. Finally, if you can give me the location of the Air Force, you
will have 21 points.
Snodgrass. Um — this is where the woi-d "present" comes in
Barry. Yes.
Snodgrass. Ah — let's see, they're building the new Air Force Academy at Colo-
rado Springs in — ah — Colorado. That's not done yet. I think — ah — wait — yes,
yes — at the Lowery Air Force Base in Denver, Colo.
Barry. That is right, and you've scored 21 points. Jim Snodgrass, you've done
it again — you've got 21 points — you still have to wait to see what Hank Bloom-
garden does — I'm gonna give you some — I'm gonna let you listen, but please do
not divulge your score or speak in any way.
Hank, you have 10 points — the category is Armed Forces. Armed Forces. How
many points do you want, from 1 to 11':'
Bloomgarden. Eleven, please.
Barry. You're going all the way for 21? I can tell you now that your oppo-
nent has already scored 21 points. It means once again and I'm not gonna point
this out, that everything is at stake — if you answer correctly we'll have another
tie and we'll have to play again at .$3,500 a point. If you miss, of course, you'll be
wiped out. Here is your (piestion — because you're trying for 21, I'll give you
some extra time to think it over. The highest rank currently held in the U.S.
Army is General of the Army. The highest rank in the Navy is Fleet
Admiral. There are at present three Generals of the Army and two Fleet Ad-
mirals on active duty. Name these five men. Understand the question all right?
Want some extra time to think it over?
Bloomgarden. Please.
Barry. I'll tell you when your time is up.
Bloomgarden. Could you, could you run through that again, please — the
question?
Barry. Yes. I think the only important part you have to know is the actual
last part. There are at pi-esent three Generals of the Army and two Fleet
Admirals on active duty. Name these five men. Want to think it over?
Bloomgarden. Please.
Barry. All right — I'll tell you when your time is up.
Your time is up. Hank. For 11 points which would give yoxi 21 — and another
tie, or, if you miss you will be wiped out — the question again. The highest
rank currently held in the U.S. Army is General of the Army. The highest rank
in the Navy is Fleet Admiral. There are at present three generals of the Army
and two fleet admirals on active duty. Name these five men.
Bloomgarden. Well, the Army. President Eisenhower was a General of the
Army, but he had to resign from the Army when he assumed the Presidency,
so that let's him out. General George Marshall is one.
Barry. That's right.
Bloomgarden. General Douglas MacArthur is another.
Barry. You've got two.
Bloomgarden. Oh — Omar Bradley. Omar Bradley.
Barry. That is right. You've got three of the generals — now, two fleet
admirals — if you answer this successfully you will have 21 points.
Bloomgarden. Nimitz is one.
Barry. That is correct. One more will give us another tie.
Bloomgarden. Leahy. Leahy,
Barry. That's right — and you scored 21 points.
Gentlemen, I don't have to tell you both what's happened — there's the 21 up
again — both of you've done it again — 21 points, and I'm sorry, we're gonna
82 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
have to put you through some more of what is ob — oh — obviously torture for
botli of you in there. We'll have to play another game, this time at $3,500 a
point. I'm not even gonna stop to figure out how much it could be — it probably
is o — over $70,000 will be involved. Will both of you relax for a moment or so?
If you can, and we'll get back to you in just a moment.
We'll — uh — we'll get on with the next game in just a moment but first there
is a word about another one of our fine products.
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Barry. I'd say that was pretty good advice, wouldn't you? Incidentally, all
questions used on "Twenty-one" have been authenticated for accuracy and order
of difl3culty by the editorial board of the Encyclopedia Britannica.
I want to turn both these studios on right now. Hank, the boys in the control
room — the producers have asked me to ask both of you if you both feel at this
tremendous amount — I want to point out that in the next game $73,500 will be
at stake. As far as I know, that is the greatest amount of money ever at stake
in any quiz program on television anywhere in the world. Do you feel you
can continue on with this, Hank? All right- — tonight — but you look at little bit
shaken — you're all right — Jim, are you OK?
Snodgrass. Yes, I'm fine.
Barry. Both of you ready to go on V
Snodgrass. Yes.
Barry. All right, boys, its up to you. Here we go — its set for $3,500 a point —
and I'll get back to you in a moment. Hank.
OK, Jim — the category— Queens — Queens. How many points do you want,
from one to eleven ?
Snodgrass. I'll take ten, please.
Barry. Ten points. One of the more diflicult questions, again. This Queen
of Hungary and her husband Francis the First had many children, one of
whom became a famous queen of France. Tell us first the name of this Queen
of Hungary, second the name of her daughter who became Queen of France,
and third, the name and number of the King of France who married her
daughter. Let's take the first one — the name of the Queen of Hungary.
Snodgrass. I think her name was Maria Theresa.
Barry. That's right. Second, the name of her daughter who became Queen
of France.
Snodgrass. The ah — name of the daughter that became Queen of France
was — ah — Marie Antoinette.
Barry. That is correct. Finally, the name and number of the King of France
who married her daughter.
Snodgrass. Well, let's see — that was Louis — the — the — I was going to say
the last of the Louis — uh — Louis the Sixteenth.
Barry. That is correct — you've scored ten points. I — ah^ — I have a feeling
the audience is more stunned than you are in there, Jim. That was the end
of the question and he scored his ten points. We'll get back to you in just a
moment.
Hank Bloomgarden, at $3,500 a point, the category is Queens — how many
points do you want, from one to eleven?
Bloomgarden. I'll take 10 on that.
Barry. For ten points. This Queen of Hungary and her husband Francis
the First had many children, one of whom became a famous queen of France.
Tell us first the name of this Queen of Hungary, second the name of her
daughter wlio become Queen of France, and third the name and number of the
King of France who married her daughter. First, the name of the Queen of
Hungary.
Bloomgarden. The name of the Queen of Hungary — was — Maria Theresa.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 83
Barry. Correct. Second, the name of her daughter who became Queen of
France.
Bloomgarden. That was Marie Antoinette.
Barry. That is correct. Third, the name and number of tlie King of France
who married her daughter, for a full ten points.
Bloomgarden. Oh, it was Louis — which one^Louis the Sixteenth.
Barry. Correct. You've got ten points. I'll get back to you in .lust a moment.
Jim, you have ten points— the category is Biology — Biology. How many
points do you want, from one to eleven?
Snodgrass. I'll try for 11.
Barry. You'll try for 11?
Snodgrass. I'll try for 11.
Barry. Which would give you 21 if answered correctly, but remember Hank
still has a turn to go so — take it easy — if you answer correctly.
The bones in our backbones or vertebrae are arranged in five groups and
named for their positions in the spinal column. Name these five groups. Under-
stand it all right?
Snodgrass. Aah — -yes.
Barry. Want some time to think it over ?
Snodgrass. Yes, please.
Barry. I'll tell you when your time is up. Good luck, Jim.
Snodgrass. Thank you.
Barry. For 11 points which would give you 21, the bones in our backbone or
vertebrae are arranged in five groups and named for their positions in the
spinal column. For 11 points and 21, name these five groups.
Snodgrass. Aah — I imagine the sacrum is part of it
Barry. I beg your pardon?
Snodgrass. The sacram — or sacram. S-A-C-R-U-M.
Bakky. I'm soiry to have to call for a ruling on this, Jim —
Snodgrass. Or sacroiliac, it may be also.
Barry. I'll have to call for a ruling on that, too. One of the groups is called
S-A-C-K-A-I. — the producers say 'no' — cannot accept. I'm sorry, Jim. Sacral
is actually the name-
Snodgrass. Sacral
Barry. And we'll have to get it precisely from both — I'm sorry you lose your
11 points — it puts you back down to zero — better luck on the next round.
Snodgrass. \\'ell, let's see what happens.
Bakky. All is not lost yet — Hank still has to answer.
Hank Bloi^.mgarden. you have ten points. The category is Biology — how many
points do you want, from one to eleven?
Bloomgarden. Eleven.
Barry. You're gonna try for 21.
Bloomgarden. Right.
Barry. Here is your question for 11 point.s — the bones in our backbone
Bloomgarden. Doesn't he have 21?
Barry. I beg your pardon?
Bloomgarden. Doesn't he have 21?
Barry. As you know, if he had 21, I would have told you so. Hank.
Bloomgarden. Oh.
B A'tRY. Here we go. The bones — we'll have to go along here — the bones in our
backbones or vertebrae are arranged in five groups and named for their positions
in the spinal column. Name these five groups. Want time to think it over?
Bloomgarden. Please.
Barry. I'll tell you when your time is up and good luck.
For 11 points, which would give you 21, Hank, name the five groups in tlu
spinal column.
Bloomgarden. The lumbar
Barry. Lumbar is one.
Bloomgarden. The sacral
Barry. Two.
Bloomgarden. The — the Thoracic
Barry. That is correct. You've got three of them. Two more to give you a
victory.
Bloomgarden. The r-ervical
Barry. Right. Yon need one more for 21 points.
Bloomgarden. I'm not sure of the pronunciation of this — I'll spell it for you —
vou'd better pronounce it. AAh, C-O-C-C-Y-X — I think it's coccyx or coccyx —
I'm not sure. C-O-C-C-Y-X.
84 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Barry. I, I have no idea how to pronounce it, but you're right — you have 21
points.
Congratulations, Hank — I.,adies and gentlemen, would you all hold your ap-
plause, please — one moment — Jim, I think you've heard what happened. Our
tin:e is running oiit — you've just XAon another victory — you've won by a score of
21 points — at $3,500 a point — you've won $73,500 — ^added to your previous
$52,500, your winnings — $126,000. Congratulations, Hank Bloomgarden.
What do you — what do you say after that? I believe that that's the greatest
amount of money ever won in one fell swoop on television — congratulations —
Jim, how do I thank you — the magnificent showing — we were playing for $3,500
a point. I know you're going to have an art exhibit down at the Village at the
end of the month and this $3,500 that you're gonna get as a consolation will go
toward making your career as an artist even a more secure one. Congratula-
tions — a tremendous hand for Jim Snodgrass.
Congratulations ! Congratulations again ! Whoo — we'll be back in 30 seconds
to continue, but right now here's my friend Bob Sheppard who seems to have
his eye on the calendar — Bob
Sheppard. Well, thank you very much, Jack. Now, friends, have you ever
wondered whether Geritol could really help you feel stronger — you know, with
more energy throughout the day — all right, then. Well, why not make this week
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in just 24 hours — you'll feel stronger fast — within seven days or your money
back. And. once again, here is Jack Barry.
Barry. I said that right, didn't I— $126,000— that's the amount. We won't
be on next week — Producer's Showcase is going to have the Festival of Magic
with Ernie Kovacs as the host and with a whole bunch of wonderful m.Tgicians —
but I think it'll be very worthwhile if you're back with us in two weeks to see
what Hank Bloomgarden does with $126,000. I don't know about you, but we had
a wonderful time here. Good night. Thank you, everybody. Good night.
Announckr. Transportation for "Twenty-one" 's guests was arranged by Amer-
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"Twenty-one" is a Jack Barry and Dan Enright Production. This is Bill Mc-
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products.
Mr. Mack. Mr. Lishman, you have more questions you wish to ask?
Mr. Lishman. Yes, thank you.
What was the wrono- answer that you were supposed to have given
to tlie Emily Dickson quotation ?
Mr. Snodgilvss. Ralph "Waldo Emerson.
Mr. Lishman. What happened after this showing we have just
seen ? Before I ask that question, I would like to ask another. The
reproduction you have just seen, is it an accurate presentation of tlie
actual questions and answers that were asked you on that show?
Mr. Snodgrass. It is.
Mr. Lishman. What happened after you had balked and given the
correct answer on a question which you were supposed to lose?
Mr, Snodgrass. I went to my dressing room and I was inunediately
joined by Mr. Freeman who, as I said before, came in almost in tears
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 85
or in tears saying that I had ruined him because I had just thrown
the budget all out of whack and everything else.
After each program we adjourned to the NBC press room for pub-
licity promotion and so forth. I3efore we even got there already the
wave of protests from people, mostly doctors, I think, about the
answer having either been right or wrong. By the time we got down
to the press room it was quite evident that there had been something
wrono- and that there was a reaction to this. I was taken aside bv Mr.
Enright.
Mr. LiSHMAX. You are referring to the medical question?
Mr. Snodgrass. The medical question ; yes, sir. I was taken aside
by Mr. Enright and saying that all was not lost perhaps, because there
was such a reaction to this question it might be that we would have
to do it over again.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You would have to come back on another per-
formance ?
Mr. Snodgrass. That is right ; yes.
ISIr. LisiiMAX. Did you come back on another performance ?
Mr. Snodgrass. June 3, 1957.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Before that performance were you given assistance
in advance of your appearance ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I vras in my dressing room the night of the per-
formance.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Who gave you tliat assistance ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Mr. Freedman.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Wliat form did tliat assistance take?
Mr. Snodgrass. I was told what the questions and answers were to
be for the first game of two rounds, and for the last round of the
second game.
Mr. Lishman. What happened in this last performance?
Mr. Snodgrass. It went completely as scheduled. Knowing the
answers to the questions of the tvio rounds of the first game I was able
to answer them. The second game, M'hich had to do with the political
leaders, I was unable to answer one part of the question which had
to do with the name of the Prime Minister of Ghana. So I missed
that. I answered the second (}uestion, which was worth 11 points.
I lost to Mr. Bloomgarden at that time by a score of 10 points.
Mr. LisiiMAN. When you were on your own, and apparently you
were on yoin* own.
Mr. Snodgrass. I was on my own in the first questions.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Did you really hope you could beat Mr. Bloom-
garden.
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, I did.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Were you ever told how nuich you would be per-
mitted to win ?
Mr. Snc^dgrass. At one time when the series of advertising was
mentioned, I was told I would come off with at least $2,000 or $3,000.
Mr. LisiiMAN. You Avould what ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I would get a consolation prize of at least $2,000
or $3,000.
Mr. Lishman. Were you ever told of a larger amount you might
M'in ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Xo.
86 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LisiiMAN. How much did you actually win ?
Mr. Sn()D(!Rass. $4,000.
Mr, LisiiMAN. That was the total amount you received?
Mr. Snodgrass. That is the total amount; yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. If you had not gone contrary to instructions, what
do you think tlie chances might have been ^
Mr. Snodgrass. They Avould not have been any better. Following
the instructions I would have come oflf with $3,000.
Mr, LisHMAN. After the stories began to ap])ear in the newspapers
about the sliow being fixed, did you have a lunclieon conference with
Mr. Freedman?
Mr. Snodgrass, Yes, Mr, Freedman tried to get in touch with me.
I had moved from my addrevSs on 16th Street to my present address.
He called my okl address. He came to see me at my present address.
I was not there. I had a subtenant at the time who was there and
took a message that I was to call Mr. Freedman, so I called Mr.
Freedman. He asked me to have lunch with him. I said fine. He
said it would be better for you not to come up here. I will come
down there. So he came down to my address on Eighth Avenue.
We went across the street to a luncheonette and had lunch. He
told me — I had already seen the newspapers about the quiz show busi-
ness — and he reminded me that anything that had passed between
us as far as questions and answers were concerned was confidential
and asked mo not to tell anyone, I told him that I had not planned
to tell anyone, but tliat if 1 was subpenaed to the grand jury I could
not do anytliing more than to tell the truth; that I would not commit
perjury.
Mr. LisHMAN. "i on did tell the truth before the grand jury?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, I did.
Mr. Lishman. AVhat did you say to Mr. Freedman when he spoke
this way to you ?
Mr. Snodgrass. As I said, T told him if I was subpenaed before the
grand jury I would have to tell the truth.
Mr. Lishman. AMiat did Mr. Freedman say to that answer^
Mr, Snodgrass, He said at this time he didn't think I would be
subpenaed before the grand jury. Tlien he called me — No, he came
to my studio again and said that he had talked with his lawyers and
told me that I would not be committing perjury. The way it would
work is this: I would bo questioned by the district attorney's office and
as long as I was not under oath I would not be committing perjury,
Mr, Lishman, Did you get the inference that you should not tell
the truth to the district attorney, or was he implying that to you?
Mr. Snodorass. Yes: I would say so.
JNIr. Lishman. Did he tell you at that convereation if you said you
had boon given questions and answers you would have to back it up?
Mr. Snoixjrass. Xo; that came a little latin*. After this conversa-
tion whore he came to my studio I received the subpena at which time
I sought out legal counsel, not knowing what to do. I figured the best
thing to do was to get a lawyer. The nia'ht before, or 2 nights before
I was to ap])ear before the grand jury, Mr. Freedman called me and
asked me if I had been subpenaed. I said "Yes," At this point he
told me that if I did tell the truth I would have to back it up. Before
I had a chance to say anything, ho said "By the way, we should not
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 87
discuss this over the telephone," he would come to see me the next
day.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did he see you the next day?
Mr. Snodgrass. No ; he did not come.
Mr. LisHMAN. JMr. Snodgrass, when you were given this assistance
in advance of the show by Mr. Freedman was anyone else present?
Mr. Snodgrass. Never.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you have any personal knowledge that any other
contestant was fixed ?
Mr. SnodgrxVss. None whatsoever.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you have any other kind of knowledge ?
Mr. Snodgrass. No.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did stories about you while you were appearing be-
fore the grand jury appear in the newspapers?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes ; they did.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Did anyone from National Broadcasting Co. ever
contact you and make inquiries?
Mr. Snodgrass. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What is your feeling about the morality of this en-
tire situation? You have been here as a witness today. You have
testified. I would just like to get youi* reaction to the morality of
tliis situation.
Mr. Snodgr.\ss. I have very mixed feelings on the subject.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What are your mixed feelings?
Mr. Snodgrass. In some ways I consider what was presented on
television was not entertainment. On the other hand, I realize that
there was something else wrong with it and it was fraudulent and
as such it was wrong.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you think that the American people believed that
they were witnessing honest contests of knowledge when they viewed
these programs?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, T would say the majority of them did, or the
great majority did.
]VIr. LisTiMAN. Did you receive fan mail attesting to that?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, I did.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In volume?
Mr. Snodgrass. I received a quantity of fan mail ; yes, sir.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Has anyone ever approached you and asked you not
to give freely of the knowledge that you have of all this situation
other than what you have testified to?
Mr. Snodgrass. No one, sir.
Mr. LisiiiiAN. Mr. Freedman is the only person ?
]\rr. Snodgrass. Mr. Freedman is the only person.
]\rr. LisTiMAN. I have no further questions.
Mr. Mack. Mr. Snodgrass, you observed this show before you were
called as a participant in the show?
Mr. SnodgRxVss. No, I had not seen the show.
Mr. Mack. I understood that you testified that you were invited
to the studio on one occasion.
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes ; I am sorry, as a standby.
Mr. Mack. As a standby participant ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes.
Mr. Mack. You had an opportunity to observe the show ?
88 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SH0V7S
Mr. Snodgrass, Yes, that was the first time I saw the show, sort of
hazily in a monitor which was on the other side of the stage.
]\Ir. Mack. On that occasion you thought that the show was on
the level?
Mr. SxoDGRAss. Yes; I did.
Mr. Mack. Did they also coach a^ou on how to coii.duct 3'ourself on
the program.
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes; they did. ^
Mr. Mack. Did they give you instructions such as breathing into
the mike ?
Mr. Snodgrass. My instructions — I was never told to breathe into
the microphone as such — I was told how many "beats," was the word,
to pause before saying how many points I would take or before
answering the question.
Mr. Mack. At the pro]:)er point we would like to have included in
the record the transcript of the sound of this program.
Mr. Rogers, do you have some questions ?
Mr. Rogers. Yes; I have one or two, Mr. Chairman.
What were the facts surrounding the delivery of the $4,000 to you
in the final analysis?
Mr. Snodgrass. The rules of the game were such that the losing —
if a challenger had never won he would receive the amount of one
point that was being played for. The final game I played we were
playing at $4,000 a point, and that is what I received.
Mr. Rogers. They did not make any statement to you one way or
the other above giving you a bonus ?
Mr. Snodgrass. No, sir.
Mr. Rogers. They didn't indicate they were giving you this to keep
your mouth shut ?
Mr. Snodcjrass. No. This was well known, this is what the losing
challenger received was the one point value.
Mr. Rogers. All of your instructions you received, you received
prior to the time you entered the isolation booth ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers. Tliere were no signals given to you after you were in
the booth as to how many points to play for or as to when and how
to answer a question ?
Mr. Snodgrass. None whatsoever.
Mr. Rogers. As far as you knoAv, there was none of this information
given to the champion or the other contestant during the program ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I have no knowledge of this.
Mr. Rogers. Was there any indication that Mr. Barry knew what
was going on ?
Mr. Snodgrass. No.
Mr. Rogers. Did he appear to you to get upset when you answered
the question you were supposed to miss ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I frankly was too upset myself to notice.
Mr. Rogers. So far as you know, ^Ir. Freedman was the only one
that knew anything about the transaction and the way it was handled;
the only one tliat gave you any information at all ?
Mr. Snodgrass. That is correct, sir.
]\fr. Rogers. I believe you testified that he told you that if you went
to the district attorney's office and talked to the district attorney that
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 89
you would not be subject to penalties of perjury because you were not
under oath?
Mr. Snodgrass. That is right.
Mr. IloGERS. Did he say anything to you then about not telling what
had happened?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes. He asked me not to tell what had happened;
yes, sir.
Mr. KoGERS. To tell the district attorney that these things did not
happen or just do not say anything?
Mr. Snodgrass. Not to say anything.
Mr. Rogers. In other words, he wanted you to perjure yourself
actually without being subject to penalties of perjury because you
did not happen to be under oath. That is what he wanted you to do.
As Mr. Lisliman asked you, Mr. Snodgrass, your reaction in this
whole situation that you revealed here, in your opinion it is a crude
fraudulent thing basically, is it not?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, this ma}^ be one of the reasons why I wrote
the letters. I couldn't tell you.
jNIr. Eogers. It was not in accordance with the rules of conduct
that you were raised by, was it ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Not exactly.
Mr. Rogers. That is all, JNIr. Chairman.
Mr. ]\Iack. Mr. Springer.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Snodgrass, to make it clear, these letters which
have been introduced into the record were w^ritten by you. Next, they
were put in an envelope and sealed by you.
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. Third, they were put in the U.S. mail, registered
and prepaid.
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes.
Mr. Springer. iVnd they were received by you.
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. And today they are in the same form as they were
on the day that you wrote them and sealed them and received them ;
is that correct ?
]\Ir. Snodgrass. That is correct.
Mr. Springer. You are an artist ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. For how long?
Mr. Snodgrass. Since 1955.
Mr. Springer. Since that time what has been your average annual
income ?
Mr. Snodgrass. It has varied a great deal. The year that I was on
"Twenty-one" and with what I made from "Twenty-one" and what I
got from pictures, that year was my best year. I made about $6,000
that year. I would say my average yearly income has been perhaps
$2,000.
Mr. Springer. Did you ever have any conversations with Mr. En-
right?
Mr. Snodgrass. Only the one conversation which was very gen-
eral w^ith Mr. Enright.
Mr. Springer. In these conversations that you had with Mr. Freed-
man, did he ever ask you what your annual income was?
Mr. Snodgrass. Never.
90 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Springer. Did you ever have any conversations with Mr.
Bloom^^arden ?
Mr. Snodgrass. One or two when we would go to the men's room to
take off the makeup. At one point we discussed our respective
mothers who were schoolteachers, for example. At one point I had
done some playwriting and he offered that if I liad a script, if I would
like, his uncle who is Kermit Bloomgarden, who is a New York pro-
ducer, he would show it to him. I thanked him but it was not
necessary.
Mr. Springer. You never got into conversation with Bloomgarden
about any of the questions?
Mr. Snodgrass. No ; none whatsoever.
Mr. Si'RiNGER. Or anything further about the program?
Mr. Snodgrass. Nothing whatsoever.
Mr. Springer. Did you ever sign a statement of any kind that you
had never received the answers to the questions?
Mr. Snodgrass. No.
Mr. Springer. Were you ever asked to sign such a statement ?
Mr. Snodgrass. No, sir.
Mr. Springer. When you received your check for $4,000 did you
sign a release of all liability against the program ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I had signed that when I fii-st went in to take the
test.
Mr. Springer. Did that include all financial responsibility for ir-
regularities sucli as this?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes. Wait. I would assume it does. I don't
know. I would have to reread it and ask advise on it.
Mr. Springer. Has your attorney ever read it ?
Mr. DoNTSiN. I have never seen it.
Mr. Springer. In your conversations with Freedman, did he ever
tell you that what they were doing on that program was not a viola-
tion of the law, either State or Federal ?
Mr. Snodgrass. No, sir. Wait. Not that I remember.
Mr. Springer. You have learned from your attorney since then that
there is no violation of either State or Federal law ?
Mr. Snodgrass. There is no
Mr. Springer. You have been advised of that by your counsel ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes.
Mr. Springer. You were advised by counsel, I take it, before you
went in the grand jury?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. He advised you that if you told the truth there was
no way in which you could be punished under law ?
Mr. Snodgrass. That is correct.
Mr. Springer. In any discussions you had with Mr. Freedman, did
he ever talk to yon about the budget ?
Mr. Snodgrass. No ; only this one time when it was too late.
Mr. Springer. When he told you that you had ruined him ?
Mr. Snodgrass. That is right.
Mr. Springer. Did he explain to you that there was a monthly fig-
ure which the production was allowed?
Mr. Snodgrass. At this time he did ; yes.
Mr. Springer. That regardless of what was won on the program
that is all they had to pay oft' ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 91
Mr. Snodgrass. I don't remember him saying that. I think he said
if there was more than that won that Bari-y & Enright Productions
would have to make up the rest.
Mr. Springer. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Mack. Mr. Moss.
Mr. Moss. I have just one or two questions.
How many tie contests did you participate in ^ How many times
did you tie with your opponent ?
Mr. SxoDGR.\.ss. I would have to count.
Mr. Moss. In each instance were you tied?
Mr. SNODGiiASS. Yes, sir ; in each instance.
Mr. Moss. AVere you given advance knowledge that you would tie ?
Mr. 'Snodgr.\ss. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. Moss. Then we could reasonably assume that the champion had
some assistance if he was to come up witli the same score you received
on each of these occasions.
Mr. Snodgrass. That would be your assumption, Mr. Moss.
Mr. Moss. Would you feel that it was an erroneous assumption ?
Mr. Snodgil\ss. No.
Mr. Moss. Did you ever have any ideas that perhaps he might also
be receiving assistance ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I must also say that I somewhat made the same
assumption ; yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. Thank you.
Mr. Mack. Mr. Derounian.
Mr. Derounian. Mr. Snodgrass, the day you were asked to lose by
the producers, were you told what score you should lose by ?
Mr. Snodgr.iss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Derounian. You have made a vei-y honest witness. Thank
you.
Mr. Mack. Mr. Devine.
Mr. Devine. Mr. Snodgrass, how old are you ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I am 37, sir.
Mr. Devine. Are you now married ?
Mr. Snodgrass. No, sir.
Mr. Devine. Were you married at the time you were on the pro-
gram?
Mr. Snodgrass. No, sir.
Mr. De\t:ne. Would you tell this committee what your formal edu-
cation was prior to appearing on the program ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Certainly. Grade school, high school in Harford
County, Md., 3 years at Western Maryland College in Westminster,
Md., bachelor of arts degree from Western Reserve University at
Cleveland.
Mr. Devine. Have you had any legal training at all ?
Mr. Snodgrass. None whatsoever.
Mr. DE^^NE. Did you have any advice from any source whatsoever
on the preparation of these registered letters you sent to yourself ?
Mr. Snodgrass. As I said, I had done some playwriting before in
my life and working on some occasions with a collaborator. This was
one way we protected our material without having — it would be un-
finished material that would be protected without getting a copy-
ntrht.
92 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Devine. You have no legal training ?
Mr. Snodgrass. No, sir.
Mr. Devine. You apparently have some knowledge of the rules of
evidence in that you can set down on paper something that is going to
occur at a later time and receive it before the situation actually oc-
curs. I want to comjiliment you on 3'our judgment on that.
Mr. Snodgrass. Thank you, sir.
JMr. Mack. Mr. Springe'r.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Snodgrass, you took a test for this, is that true ?
Mr. Snodgrass. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. Do you rememlier what your score was ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I was never told my score, sir.
Mr. Springer. In college what was your IQ?
Mr. Snodgrass. I have no idea, sir.
Mr. Mack. Mr. Lishman, do you have any further questions?
Mr. LisiiMAN. Mr. Chairman, I think in fairness to everyone con-
cerned that we should make a brief statement.
From the information we have, it appears that in many instances
well-meaning people were entrapped m a situation. In many in-
stances when they were first approached by the producers and were
asked to participate in a fixed program, they refused. In some in-
stances they refused repeatedly. All kinds of inducements were held
out to them and not all of monetary nature. In some instances per-
sons who would be interested, for example, in advancing the cause of
medical research and other matters were told that tliey would have
the opportunity while on the program to make some brief statement
to further some extremely worthy cause in which they were interested,
and which deserved the public's support. So I think that when we
are appraising the testimony of these contestants who ajjpeared be-
fore us and the truthful manner we now just have had, I thinlv that
should also be taken into consideration.
Mr. Mack. That completes your testimony of this witness?
Mr. Lishman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mack. There are other witnesses who have been subpenaed to
appear today who are requested to be here tomorrow at 10 a.m. The
committee will stand recessed until 10 a.m.
(Thereupon at 4:45 p.m., a recess was taken until Wednesday,
October 7, 1959, at 10 a.m.)
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 7, 1959
House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee on
Legislative Oversight of the Committee
ON Interstate and Foreign Commerce,
Washington^ D.C.
The special subcommittee met at 10 a.m., in the caucus room, Old
House Office Building, Hon. Oren Harris (chairman), presiding.
Present : Representatives Harris, Mack of Illinois, Rogers of Texas,
Flynt, Moss, Springer, Derounian, and Devine.
Also present: Robert ^^^ Lishman, counsel to the subcommittee;
Beverly M. Coleman, subcommittee principal attorney; Charles P.
Howze, subcommittee attorney: Richard N. Goodwin, subcommittee
special consultant; Hennan Clay Beasley, subcommittee clerk; and
Jack Mai-shall Stark, minority comisel.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
The first witness this morning will be Mr. Alfred Davis. Mr.
Davis, will you come around, please ?
Will you raise your hand and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear
the testimony you give to this committee to be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Davis. I do.
The Chairman. Please have a seat. Will you state your name for
TESTIMONY OF ALFRED DAVIS
Mr. Davis. Alfred Davis.
The Chairman. Will you give your address, Mr. Davis? '
V Mr. Davis. 9934 67th Road, Forest Hills, N.Y.
The Chairman. What is your occupation or business ?
Mr. Davis. I am a public relations and publicity agent. ' '
The Chairman. Were your offices in New York l .
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Lishman.
Mr. Lishman. Yes, sir. Mr. Davis, were you at one time employed
by the firm of Barry & Enright ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir. '.
Mr. Lishman. In what capacity were you employed?
Mr. Davis. Public relations and publicity.
Mr. Lishman. What did those duties require you to do?
Mr. Davis. They required me to publicize the Bariy & Enright
projects, Mr. Barry himself, and to advise on matters of public rela-
tions.
' 93
52294— 60— pt. 1 7 ..., ; .. ' .
94 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were you familiar with the "Twenty-one" quiz
show ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Are you acquainted with the witness, Mr. Herbert
Stempel ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you hear his testimony yesterday ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. Did there come a time when Mr. Stempel prior to
his appearance on the "Twenty-one" TV quiz show, told you that he
had questions and answers to a particular show ?
INIr. Davis. Yes, sir.
INIr. LisHMAN. Was that day on or about December 5, 1956?
Mr. Davis. It was the day of his final appearance on the show.
]Mr. Lishman. The date of his final appearance, when he lost. To
whom did he lose, do you recall ?
Jtlr. Davis. Van Doren.
Mr. Lishman. On that day, prior to the show in the evening, did
he show you a piece of paper ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. And what did that piece of paper contain ?
Mr. DA\as. To the best of my recollection it contained a rundown
of that night's show.
Mr. Lishman. By rundown, you mean the questions and answers
appeared on that piece of paper ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. After Mr. Stempel had shown you this information,
what did you do ?
Mr. Davis. I discussed the matter with my partner.
Mr. Lishman. Who is he, please ?
Mr. Davis. Art Franklin. Just to clarify that, that was until
May 31, 1959.
Mr. Lishman. Can you state the substance of tliat discussion that
you had with your partner ?
Mr. Davis. I can state the conclusion fairly accurately. It was
felt that if possible it was necessary to alter what appeared to be
the inevitable result.
Mr. Lishman. What do you mean by alter what appeared to be
the inevitable result ?
Mr. Davis. We had, if possible, to have the game played on the
basis on which we felt it had been played in the past.
Mr. Lishman. After your discussion with your partner, Mr.
Franklin, did you have a meeting with Mr. Enright ?
Mr. Davis. My partner liad a meeting with him.
Mr. Lishman. Were you present at that meeting ?
Mr. Davis. No, sir.
Mr. Ltsttman. Did you ever tell Mr. Enright that Mr. Stempel
had shown you the questions and answers?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. What did Mr. Enright say to you ?
Mr. Davis. He said something like, "If my own wife had con-
fronted me with such an accusation, I would have to give her the
same reaction as I gave to Art," which would be one of what would
you say, complete denial.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOW^S 95
Mr. LiSHMAN. Complete denial ?
The Chairman. I didn't understand what you said. He would
have to give the same answer as he gave to whom ?
Mr. Davis. As he had given to my partner when he had originally
talked to him before this final show.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Davis, you testified before the New York County
grand jury, did you not?
Mr. Davis. Yes sir.
Mr. LisHMAx. Are you quite positive that is the answei' that was
given to you by Mr. Enright on that occasion ?
Mr. Davis. As far as I can remember. This was in December of
1956. That is almost 3 years ago.
Mr. LiSHMAX. I would like to refresh your recollection, Mr.
Davis
Mr. Davis. Please do-
Mr. LiSHMAN. By reading from your testimony before the New
York grand jury.
The Chairman. Mr. Lishman, for the record, so that the record
will be clear, are the answers that have been given here apparently
in some way
Mr. Lishman. At variance with the grand jury testimony.
The Chairman. The same testimony he gave to the grand jury?
Mr. Lishman. In certain respects; not in all.
The Chairman. Very well. You may proceed.
Mr. Lishman. In your tevStimony before the grand jury on Januaiy
20, 1959, in answer to questions by Assistant District xVttorney Stone:
Well, as a result of this information, did you then speak to Mr. Enright?
I spoke to Mr. Enright a few weeks after that and told him what had
happened.
What did he say?
Well, he was rather equivocal.
When you say he was equivocal, do you recall what he said or the substance
of what he said?
I remember, about the only thing I could recall as a reply that I got was
that I referred to a visit that Art Franklin had paid him previously and in
which he had hinted at what Stempel had told us, not actually coming out and
saying it, and I told him that this is what Art Franklin had been hinting at
was such ami such and so and so which I just told you about, Stempel and the
answers, and I said you should have imderstood what Art Franklin meant when
he hinted that there was something wrong regarding Stempel, and he said —
Well, this is the closest thing I could say he gave me as an answer. "Well, if my
wife were to confront me with this accusation, I would have to be just as
circumspect."
Mr. DA^^s. Sir, is what I have just testified at variance with that?
It may be less complete. You did not ask me questions which led me
to give you that entire story. I don't think that is fair.
Mr. Ltsh^man. Did IMr. Stempel offer to you a proposition that he
should be permitted to play honestly on this game ?
Mr. Davis. A proposition ?
Mr. Lishman. Well
Mr. Da\t:s. He wanted an opportunity to play honestly.
Mr. Lishman. I will rephrase the question. Did Mr. Stempel ever
come to you and request that arrangements be made that he be al-
lowed to play the game honestly ?
Mr. Davis. There were many conversations during that period with
Mr. Stempel who had made sort of his headquarters at our office at
96 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
that time. This was a constant refrain of his, once he had revealed,
as he chiimed, that the show was rigged.
]Mr. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, he can answer a question like that,
Mr. Davis. I said many times Stempel had asked or expressed his
great desire that the show be played on a legitimate basis. I don't
remember any one specific time when he asked that. I don't think
tlie question was very clear, sir. It wasn't to me.
The Chairman. I think the question was very clear. You may
state that you do not understand the question, if you like.
Mr. Davis. I would like to state that.
The Chairman. But otherwise, I think it would be better for you
to confine yourself to answering the questions.
Mr. LisHMAN. I will repeat the question. Did Mr. Stempel at any
time ever come to you and request that arrangements be made that he
be permitted to play the game, "Twenty-one," honestly and without
prior assistance ? Is that clear ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir. One specific occasion that I do remember,
the only one that I do remember specifically, was the same occasion
on which he showed me the answers. He was quite agitated.
The Chairman. Did he make such a request of you at that time?
Mr. Davis. Yes; I was about to try to explain that.
The Chairman. You could answer "Yes" or "No."
Mr. Davis. Well, I don't understand what you mean by proposi-
tion. Did he make a proposition ?
Mr. LisHMAN, I rephrased the question and you had it read to you
twice in a different form. I submit, Mr. Chairman, the question is
very clear. I think we have a rather evasive witness.
The Chairman. Do you want the question read back to you?
]Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
(The question was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Davis. The answer to that is "Yes."
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Lishman. Now, Mr. Davis, on March 1, 1957, did you have
a meeting with Mr. Enright at which you discussed the situation in-
volving Mr. Stempel's receiving assistance on this program?
Mr. Davis. On March 1?
Mr. Lishman. On March 1,1957.
Mr. Davis. I don't remember any date. I remember — it must have
been before then. My impression is that it was not too long after he
had been on the program.
Mr. Lishman. Let us
Mr. Davis. I had one meeting, if I may say, with Enright at which
I discussed this.
Mr. Lishman. I will rephrase this another way. Did there come
a time when Barry & Enright, to your knowledge, were engaged in
negotiations with NBC to sell them a certain so-called property?
Mr. Davis, Yes, sir,
Mr. Lishman. Was it during the course of these negotiations with
NBC that you had a meeting with Mr. Enright at which you dis-
cussed the problem that was raised by Mr. Stempel having received
assistance on the show, "Twenty-one"?
Mr. Davis. Are you referring to the meeting I mentioned before
at which I told Enright that I knew Stempel had asked?
Mr. Lishman. No; I am referring to a subsequent meeting.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOVi^S 97
Mr. Davis. A subsequent meetintr ? In March ?
Mr. LisHMAx. I will sa}^ on or about March 1, 1957.
The Chairman. If you do not remember the exact date, oo ahead
and answer the question if you can.
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
I remembei" being summoned to Enright's office sometime in March
at which his lawj^er, Irving Cohen, was present. Mr. Franklin went
with me. Mr. Enright was there. And another officer of Barry &
Enright was there, Mr. Stettler. If this is the meeting you are
referring to, sir
Mr. LiSHMAN. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Davis. All right.
We were told by Sir. Enright that Herb Stempel had come in that
day with an attempt to blackmail him for $50,000.
Mr. LisHiMAN. What else was said at that meeting?
Mr. Davis. I believe we discussed an obvious adverse public rela-
tions effect of such situation becoming public.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you discuss specific measures which should be
taken to keep this news about tlie Stempel fix from reaching the
newspapers ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir : I i-emember now.
Another thing, it was felt that possibly Stempel was in a very
disturbed and agitated state because of various personal problems,
and that it might be possible to talk to him directly and make him
see the recklessness of such a coui'se of activity.
Mr. Lishmax. Was there discussed at that meeting the possibility
that publicity about Mr. Stempel would be detrimental to the negotia-
tions that were then being conducted by Barry & Enright for the
sale of the show ^
Mr. Davis. I couldn't swear that was specifically discussed there.
I am sure it was uppermost, in everyone's mind.
The Chairmax. You say you are sure it was uppermost in every-
one's mind ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishmax. Now, Mr. Davis, in the fall of 1957 did it come to
your attention that Mr. Stempel's story had been given to certain
newspapers ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir. Excuse me, sir. It had come to my attention
before that. In the spring — in the summer of 1957, the enAj summer.
Mr. Lishmax. How did it come to your attention ?
Mr. Davis. Well, reporters were questioning my client, Enright.
Mr. Lishmax. Had a piece appeared in any newspaper at that
time?
Mr. Davis. I don't remember, sir.
Mr. Lishmax. Did you have some discussions with your partner,
]Mr. Franklin, about this matter ?
Mr. DA^^s. TVHiich one ?
Mr. Lishmax. About this Stempel having gone to the newspapers.
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishmax. Did Mr. Franklin tell you that he had a call from
the executive editor of the New York Post telling him that Stempel
had been to him ? ,
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir. '
98 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LiSHMAN. Would you state the substance of that conversation
that you had with your partner, Mr. Franklin ?
Mr. Da-vt:s. He told me that Stempel, as I recall it, had been to the
Post and had told him everything that he possibly could about the
show being rigged,
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you know whether the Post published that story ?
Mr. Da\t:s. Not at that time, I did not, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you know when they did publish it ?
Mr. Dx\v[s. It was the weekend or the week before Labor Day of
1967; 1958.
Mr. LiSHMAN. One year later ?
Mr. Davis. It was 1 year ago, approximately.
Mr. LiSHMAN. One year after the executive editor of the New York
Post had told your partner, Mr. Franklin, that he knew
Mr. Davis. Excuse me, sir. That was May 1958 in that case.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Wait a minute
Mr. Davis. "Wlien was Stempel on ? In 1956?
Mr. LiSHMAN. His last appearance, as I understand it, was De-
cember 5, 1956.
Mr. Davis. The New York Post situation arose, then, in the sum-
mer of 1957.
Mr. T/iSHMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Davis. I don't remember when the story broke, whether it was
1958 or 1959 ; 1957 or 1958.
Mr. LisHMAN. At the time that Mr. Franklin had his discussions
with the executive editor of the New York Post, do you remember
whether the story appeared at or about close to that time ?
Mr. Davis. No, sir.
Mr. Ltshman. It appeared sometime later ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
'Mr. LiSHMAN. A long time later ?
Mr. Davis. Months. "At least months later.
Mr. Ltshman. Would you say 8 or 9 months later ?
Mr. Davis. It depends on when the scandal broke. If that was in
1957, then it appeared about 6 months later.
Mr. Ltshman. The scandal broke in August 1958, according to the
newspaper accounts that we have checked.
Mr. Davis. Then it would have been a year.
Mr. Ltshivian. At or about the time that Mr. Franklin told you,
that he had been contacted bv the editor of the Post, is it also a fact
that the Journal American had contacted Mr. Franklin with respect
to the Stempel story ?
Mr. Daves, At a later time.
Mr. Ltshman. About what date was that ?
Mr. Davis. Several months later. I would say in the late summer
of 1957. .IT 1
Mr. Ltshman, Did Mr. Franklin discuss the contact of the Journal
American with vou ? Did you have a discussion with Mr. Franklin
about what happened?
Mr, Davis, Yes. sir,
Mr, TvisHMAN. Wliat was the substance of that discussion ?
Mr. Davis. The substance was again that this would be very damag-
ing to our client.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 99
Mi\ LisHMAN. Did you kiiow whether Mr. Barry or Mr. Enright
were informed of these newspaper contacts at or about that time ?
Mr. Davis. At the time each occurred, the client was informed; yes,
sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. "\Mien you told Mr. Enright about this, what did he
say
Mr. Davis. I can remember no specific reactions, except that in each
case he assumed a rather indignant attitude and seemed to feel that
he was being treated unfairly.
I would just like to mention that Mr. Enright, except possibly for
that very, I think, hazy half admission at that meeting which we dis-
cussed before, has never subsequently admitted anything about the
program. I can't explain.
The Chairman. You mean to yourself ? You mean to you ?
M. Davis. Yes, sir. I might venture to say to no one.
Mr. LisHMAN. Mr. Davis, did you or your partner, Mr. Franklin,
issue any denial to these newspapermen who contacted you with re-
spect to the story ?
Mr. Da\t:s. I myself did not issue any denial. I couldn't say exactly
what Mr. Franklin's response was, whether it was a denial, 3^011 would
have to check that with him, or just the fact that he informed them
that there were implications to the story much more complex than
the mere fixed program, such as personal implications for Stempel
and so forth.
Mr. LiSHMAN. At or about this time, did you get a call from a press
representative of NBC ?
Mr. Davis. I was ostensibly being called by a press representative
from NBC.
Mr. Lishmax. Do you remember a particular call from a press
representative of the NBC who told you that the Journal American
had the story on Stempel and something had to be done about it ?
Mr. Davis. Know that Ellis Moore — no, sir; I did not get a call
from NBC. I got a call from Mr. Dan Enright, who had been called
from NBC by someone named Ellis Moore, who is an executive in the
press department, who had been told this.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did there come a time when there was a meeting
with a Mr. Eiges and a Mr. Moore and Mr. Enright, yourself and
others ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
INIr. LisHMAN". Would you please identify who Mr. Moore is and
Mr. Eiges ?
Mr. Davis. Mr. Moore is, I believe, assistant director of public re-
lations at NBC. I could be wrong about that. Publicity, not public
relations. Mr. Eiges is vice president in charge, I believe, of pub-
licity.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you recall the approximate date of that meeting ?
Mr. DA^ncs. I think that was in the late summer of 1957. I seem to
have lost a year someplace.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you recall who called that meeting ?
Mr. Davis. I think it was mutually agreed that it was necessary by
all three parties who were Barry &' Enright, NBC, and our own or-
ganization.
100 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did a friend of Mr. Moore's on the Journal Ameri-
can call him up at or about that time and tell him to get ready for a
big storm ?
Mr. Davis. I don't remember that, sir. I would not be surprised.
Mr. LisHMAN. This is not to impeach the witness' testimony, but
merely to refresh his recollection. 1 would like to read a short extract
from his testimony before the grand jury. In answer to a question,
Mr. Davis stated :
No, but apparently a friend of f^llis Moore since NBC was involved in this situa-
tion had called Ellis Moore to inform him that such a thing was in the works.
In other words, saying be prepared for a — for the storm.
Does that refresh your memory ?
Mr. Davis. May I clarify that ?
Apparently those were my words. What I meant is that I don't
think that Ellis INIoore said to me or to anybody, "be prepared for a
storm." My interpretation was that is what the message was.
Mr. LisiiMAN. After Mr. Moore received those calls from his friend
on the Journal American, did you have a meeting with NBC repre-
sentatives attended by yourself Mr. Enright and others ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Wlio else was present at that meeting ?
Mr. Davis. Besides myself.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Yes.
Mr. Davis. Ellis Moore, Syd Eiges, Art Franklin, Dan Enright,
possibly — and I don't remember, I only say this because there were
several meetings over a course of several years that various people
were present, and I can't be sure which meetings each were at — I be-
lieve possibly Bob Goldwater of NBC was at this one.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Who was the last one ?
Mr. Da\t[s. Bob Goldwater, who was the press representative at
NBC for "Twenty-one."
Mr. LisHMAN. Was this meeting concerned with the fact that the
Journal American was in the process of writing a story on the Stempel
exposure ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What was the nature of the discussion at this meet-
ing ?
To make it more specific, was the purpose for the meeting to devise
w^ays and means of preventing that exposure ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir, certainly.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What specific measures did you discuss that should
be taken to prevent the exposure ?
Mr. Davis. Would you refresh my memory ?
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you suggest one way of doing it was to smear
Stempel and prove that he was a liar ?
Mr. Davis. Well, I might not agree with the choice of terms. I
would say that was a consideration. The fact that Stempel
Mr. IvisiiMAN. Did anybody from NBC indicate at that meeting
that they wanted a real thorough investigation to find out whether Mr.
Stempel was telling the truth ?
Mr. DA^^s. No, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAX. Did any NBC representative ask you, or anyone
present from Barry & Enright ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 101
Mr. Dam:s. To my recollection, not at that meeting. There was a
subsequent meeting at which somebody from NBC asked. That was
much later in the game. I don't remember whether anybody at that
meeting asked.
Mr. LiSHMAN. But at a later meeting, did a representative of NBC
ask Barry & Enright or its employees as to whether Stempel's story
was true ?
Mr. Davis. I don't remember anybody asked the specific question,
but they wanted to know. They were hesitant. If I seem evasive, sir,
I would like to clarify the situation.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Very good. ■ v
Go ahead, we want to get the truth.
Mr. Davis. These incidents occurred over a period of about 2i/^
years. There were so many meetings and so much confusion and so
many people involved and so many measures, countermeasures and
strategies, that I would have to be a better man than I am to remember
them all in strict chronological order; even anything approximating
word for word.
Mr. LisHMAN. Mr. Davis, we do not want to hold you down to a
chronological timetable on this. But we do want to get the substance
of what went on in these various discussions.
Mr. Davis. Can I try to answer this question ?
Mr. LisHMAN. Yes.
Mr. Davis. The reason I say I don't remember anybody specifically
asking was that there are other ways of finding out that somebody
wants something than by somebody asking for it. In other words, we
were at that meeting to issue our reply to a stoiy which had appeared
that day. The people at NBC, by their apparent reluctance to issue
a statement backing Barry & Enright, obviously were calling for
something more than just our desire for them to do so.
It was obvious that we had to tell them that Stempel, we felt, was
not a reliable witness or source because of certain — this would be true
by certain evidence which existed. This was the extent of it.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Davis, if I may interrupt, what you are talking
about now is a later meeting in 1958 ? ..v ■.
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. The questions I addressed to you were about this
earlier meeting in 1957 which resulted from the 'fact that Mr. Moore
had received word from a friend on the Journal- American that a
storm was about to break. That was some time late in the summer of
1957?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. It was at or about that time, or shortly afterward,
that you had your first meeting with Mr. Moore, Mr. Eiges, Mr. En-
right, Mr. Franklin, and yourself, and possibly one or two others?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. At that meeting did any representative of NBC —
and Mr. Moore and Mr. Eiges were such— did either of those gentle-
men ask you or anyone representing Barry & Enright, Is Stempel's
story true?
Mr. Davis. As far as I can recall, sir, it was generally assumed
by them that his story was not true. The occasion would not have
occurred to them to ask.
102 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QTHZ SHOWS
Mr. LiSHMAN. The question was not asked?
Mr. Davis. No, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. The question was not asked?
Mr. Davis. It was not.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was a denial at that time made by any represent-
ative of Barry & Enright that Stempel's story was not true ?
Mr. Davis. I don't recall that any was called for or made.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did Mr. Enright volunteer any statement to the
NBC people present that Stempel's story was not true?
Mr. Davis. He may have, sir. I do not remember that meeting
clearly.
The Chairman. Mr. Davis, if you would like to clarify any further
answers to this question, please feel at liberty to do so.
Mr. Davis. No, sir.
The Chairman. If you recall anything else that happened at this
particular meeting, feel free to tell precisely what went on.
Mr. Davis. I would be very happy to, sir. It just happens that this
is one meeting of which I remember very little.
Mr. Lishman. What was the result of this meeting in 1957 ? How
did it conclude?
Mr. Davis. I don't even remember the result.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was it a general agreement that everybody would
sit tight and play it by ear?
Mr. Davis. That sounds right.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was there a subsequent meeting involving "Twenty-
one'' on the evening of the day that Stemple's story first broke in the
newspapers ?
Mr. Davis. Sir, that is the meeting I have referred to.
Mr. LiSHMAN. That is the second meeting.
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Who attended that meeting?
Mr. Davis. Ken Bilby of NBC, who I believe is vice president in
charge of advertising and exploitation. Syd Eiges. You asked me
who was at that meeting?
Mr. LiSHMAN. Yes.
Mr. Davis. Myself, Mr. Franklin, Mr. Enright, Mr. Cohen.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was there a Mr. Ervin ?
Mr. Davis. Tom Ervin of NBC, legal counsel of NBC, I don't know
his exact title.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Barry was not present at that meeting ?
Mr. Davis. Mr. Barry was in Chicago at that time.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What was discussed at this conference which was
approximately after the first one I had been inquiring about ?
Mr. Davis. We discussed the necessary steps to counteract the very
damaging publicity which had appeared that day. If you would like
me to be brief, statements were discussed which were to be made by
Barry & Enright, and also by NBC.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Yes.
Mr. Davis. It was suggested b}^ Mr. Bilby that legal action be
taken against the New York World-Telegram and Sun for having
broken the story.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What was Mr. Enright's reaction to this idea ; that
they should take such action ?
Mr. Davis. It was favorable.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 103
Mr. LisiiMAN. At that conference was it decided, in other words,
that there was no question now of sitting tight and playing it by ear,
but that you had to take some positive, affirmative action ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir. One other tiling was decided, sir, if I remem-
ber. It was decided that we see the district attorney or his assistant
the following morning. An appointment was made, I believe, Mr.
McKay, a member of the legal firm for NBC. I believe that is
his name.
Mr. LisHMAN. At this second meeting did anyone from NBC or
anyone in the room ask Mr. Enright if the story appearing in the
paper was true ?
Mr. Davis. This is what I was trying to explain before. By their
reluctance at first to issue a strong statement backing Barry & Enright,
they made it quite obvious that they wanted something more than
mere indignation on our part, and we volunteered. I say we ; I don't
remember who. Somebody on our team volunteered the information
that there was evidence that Stempel was not a reliable witness. I
don't know whether we Avere specific as to what the evidence was.
As a matter of fact, I remember there was a situation in which it
was felt necessary to get tape recordings and play them at that time,
and it was impossible to get them because they were in the bank
somewhere and the vault had closed, and we tried to get the vice pres-
ident of the bank to open the vault and he couldn't do it.
Mr. LisHMAN. Mr. Davis, did anyone at that meeting say flatly
that Stempel was telling a lie, as reported in the story, when he
stated that he had received prior assistance on the television show,
"Twenty-one"?
Mr. Davis. To my recollection, that type of answer was never re-
quired at any point.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In other words, no one ever asked the question, Was
Mr. Stempel fixed in advance on the TV show, "Twenty-one"?
Mr. Davis. I can say positively that I am sure nobody asked that
question.
Mr. LisHMAN. Nobody asked that question. Did they ask a ques-
tion similar to that ?
Mr. Davis. As far as I can recall, the most that they asked was.
What about this guy, Stempel ?
Mr. LisHMAN. In other words, most of the emphasis was placed on
an effort not to ascertain whether or not Stempel's story was true,
but on how to take the sting out of it ; is that correct ?
Mr. Davis. I don't think it would be fair to say that, sir. I hold
no brief for NBC, but I think if they had any idea that it were true
that they certainly would have adopted a different attitude.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was it subsequent to this meeting that on August 8
NBC issued its press release which was read into the record yes-
terday, that after a thorough investigation they found that the charges
made by Mr. Stempel were unfounded, and that they had complete
confidence in the integrity of Barry & Enright, and of the show,
"Twenty-one" ?
Mr. Davis. Yes. sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Following this August meeting, were there any sub-
sequent meetings between representatives of Barry & Enright and
NBC with respect to the TV show, "Twenty-one" ?
104 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Davis. I don't believe there was more than one or two at which
I was present. If there were — I believe not. It was a very confused
time. I don't think I slept for several weeks, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. When it came time for you to appear before the
district attorney and you had been summoned, did you have a meet-
ing with Mr. Enright and an attorney ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN, What was the name of that attorney ?
Mr. Davis. Edwin Slote.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Who else attended that meeting?
Mr. Davis. Art Franklin.
Mr. LisHMAN. Do you remember what was said at that meeting?
Mr. Davis. We asked what to do. We did not wish to testify. We
did not wish to have to testify as to anything that would damage our
client. We were advised by Mr. Slote in Mr. Enright's presence — I
should make it clear that Slote was acting more as our attorney than
as Barry & Enright's. I am not sure who he was representing at this
particular meeting because he advised us if and when we testified to
deny certain things that we knew were true.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did he tell you to commit perjury before the grand
jury?
Mr. Davis. He called it preparing the witness.
Mr. Lishman. Did he tell you to deny matters which you knew
were true ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did he tell you to do this while you were under oath
before the grand jury?
Mr. Davis. I could not swear to that, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. When you received this advice, what did you say?
Mr. Davis. We hedged. We did not give any clear reply. Seeing
as we both were quite confused at the time, they left. I believe Slote
felt that he had not completed the job.
Mr. LiSHMAisr. Was this at subsequent meetings?
Mr. DA^1S. Incidentally, after Enright had left, he said he was
no longer representing Enright. That Enright had given him his
notice. He didn't care about Enright. He was just concerned with
us.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you receive this advice from Mr. Slote to the
effect that you were not to testify truthfully before the grand jury
that you knew Stempel had received questions and answers and what
the circumstances were which led you to believe that he had received
the questions and answers ?
Ml-. Davis. I don't know if the grand jury came in, but in my
mind at the time the district attorney's office and the grand jury
were all lumped into one. That is all 1 was concerned with. He did
tell me what you say. I don't know whether he mentioned grand jury.
Mr. LisiiaiAN. Mr. Witness, in order to be perfectly fair, I would
like to show you a portion of the grand jury testimony and ask you
if that won't refresh your recollection.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Davis. I would like to apologize for my answer not seeming
to be what it actually was, which was the same as that. In effect,
yes, because it was downtown that we were talking about. That in-
cluded to me the grand jury.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 105
Mr. LisHMAN. And that meant grand jury.
Mi-. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you agree to follow this advice ?
Mr. Da\t:s. No, As I say, we gave him no answer. We seemed to
be trying to digest what he had tokl us.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did this attorney subsequently advise you to get out
of town ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Where did he tell you to go ?
Mr. Daatls. As far away as possible. - - \. :
Mr. LisHMAN. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions. '[ [';[
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, which attorney was that ?
Mr. LisiiMAN. Mr. Slote.
Mr. Derounian. Is he still practicing law in New York State ?
Mr. LisHMAN. I don't know.
Mr. Davis. I don't know, sir. I have not had contact with him for
over a year.
Mr. Derouniax. This is apart from the instant proceeding, but
any attorney who advises his client as this one has should not be
practicing law, and it is a matter for the Bar Association of the City
of New York to take up.
The Chairman. I hope we do not get too far away from the pur-
pose of this investigation and the matters concerned here, as serious
as this may be, but it probably belongs to some other body to go
into.
Mr. ISIoss.
Mr. Moss. Mr. Chairman, I find it rather difficult to follow the re-
cent sequence of questions and answers. It probably is quite clear
to counsel and to Mr. Davis. But the grand jury minutes were shown
to Mr. Davis and he confirmed an answer. I have no knowledge as
to what that answer was. I wonder if he might have that clarified.
The Chairman. The Chair might state that he is trying to indicate
that to a certain degree such line of testimony would be appropriate,
but I think be3'ond the purposes of this hearing it would not be de-
sired. As I understand, the question referred to the gentleman was
whether or not such advice was given for him to or not to testify
before the grand jury as well as take other action. Is that not true?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Does that clear it up to the gentleman now ?
Mr. Moss. The minutes have clarified it completely.
The Chairman. Is that all, Mr. Lishman '\ -
Mr. Lishman. Yes, sir. ' . •
The Chairman. Mr. Springer.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Davis, at these meetings that you had at NBC,
together with the staff of Barry & Enright, isn't it true that jow and
the Barry & Enright organization made every effort to deceive NBC
as to the true status of Stempel ?
Mr. Davis. I would have to say ''Yes," sir. !
May I clarify my answer. • .
Mr. Springer, Yes.
Mr. Davis. We did not make any great efforts to deceive them. We
did not make any efforts to enlighten them.
Mr. Springer. TNHiat, in effect, you did not do was to tell them the
truth about this situation i
106 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. SrRiNGER. Is it your opiiiion now that Stempel was not then
and is not now a stable witness ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. First of all, did you hear the testimony given by
Mr. Stempel yesterday ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. Is the testimony given by Mr. Stempel as of yester-
day substantially true?
Mr. Davis. In the one, to me, crucial point, whether or not he was
given the answers, it was not to my knowledge true. There were
many occasions on which I am sure he was way off base. As a matter
of fact, I can be very specific about it. He said that on several oc-
casions he had told me what was going to happen on the succeeding
show. This happened only once.
Mr. Springer. May I ask if these are the only two conversations in
which you were present with NBC.
Mr. Davis. In relation to Stempel, they were the two ones. There
may have been some subsequent ones after the thing had broken in
the press and at times we would have to call NBC to coordinate things
and so forth. We were in some contact with them.
Mr. Springer. From any of the conversations at wliich you were
present with NBC, do you have any reason to believe now that NBC
was at any time aware that there was a fix on the "Twenty-one"
program ?
Mr. Davis. I have no reason to believe that, sir.
Mr. Springer. Insofar as you know, did NBC, on its own initiative,
make any attempt to determine whether or not Stempel was telling
the truth?
Mr. Davis. I do not know.
Mr. Springer. AVhat is Ellis Moore's title with NBC?
Mr. Davis. I believe he is either director or assistant director of
press.
Mr. Springer. Who are Tom Ewing and Ken Bilby ?
Mr. Davis. Tom Ewing I do not remember, although the name is
not entirely unfamiliar. I just can't place him.
Bilby is vice president in charge of, I believe, advertising and
publicity. The title could be wrong.
Mr. Springer. Insofar as you know, no one else in the NBC
organization inquired about this question of a fix on the "Twenty-
one" program?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir. As far as I know, that is true.
Mr. Springer. Who was Sid Eiges ?
Mr. Davis. He is vice president in charge of press at NBC.
Mr. Springer. Did anyone in an executive capacity, or at the policy
level at NBC make any inquiry with reference to this matter?
Mr. Davis. Not to my Iniowledge, sir.
Mr. Springer. I take it, Mr. Davis, from what you have said, that
generally the concern of NBC in these conferences was to get around
unfavorable publicity.
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. This was their concern rather than going to the
heart of the matter and investigating on their own initiative as to
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 107
whether or not there was a fix on the "Twenty-one" program. Is that
about right?
Mr. Davis. I would say so, sir.
Mr. Springer. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Rogers.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Mr. Davis, how old a man are you?
Mr. Davis. Thirty-six.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Thirty-six ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Your full name is what ?
Mr. Davis. Alfred Davis.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Alfred Davis?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Is that the name you were bom under?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Wliere were you born ?
Mr. Davis. New York, sir.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. In New York City ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Have you ever been indicted for any crime?
Mr. Davis. No, sir.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Have you ever been in any trouble with the
law at all ?
Mr. Davis. No, sir.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. You said something about that you had not
slept much during a certain period here when this thing broke. Why
was it that you had not slept ?
Mr. Davis. I feel that I was very personally involved in the welfare
of Barry & Enright for many reasons, one of which was financial, one
of which was there was a personal relationship of 8 or 9 years that
existed with these people, that I was very close friends with possibly
a dozen young people on their staff who had just started their careers
and who would be severely damaged by these revelations.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Were you convinced at that time that there
was some fraud or misrepresentation in regard to the "Twenty-one"
program ?
Mr. Davis. I definitely knew it, sir. I had known for quite some
time.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. And you have not changed your mind since
then by virtue of any information that has come out ?
Mr. Davis. No, sir.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. Thank you very much.
The Chairman. Mr. Derounian.
Mr. Derounian. Mr. Davis, were you an employee of Barrj^ & En-
right or did you have a piece of it as public relations man ?
Mr. Davis. Our publicity and public relations agency was employed
by Barry & Enright. They were an account of ours. We had sev-
eral accounts.
Mr. Derounian. Are you still a part of the same organization in
public relations with Mr. Franklin?
Mr. Davis. No, sir. On June 1 of this year I opened my own office.
Mr. Derounian. No further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Moss.
108 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Moss. Mr. Davis, you indicate that you were convinced that
there was in fact a fix on the program ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. When did you first become convinced ?
Mr. Davis. I became convinced when Stempel showed me what
seemed to me irrefutable evidence of it the day that he lost on the
show. He showed me what, to my recollection, pretty accurately,
were the questions and answers for that evening.
Mr. Moss. You indicated, in response to a question, to Mr. Springer
that onl}^ on one occasion did Mr. Stempel show you material or dis-
cuss it with you.
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir. Prior to that, sir, he had told me that the
show was rigged, in his words. I didn't know whether to believe him
or not.
Mr. Moss. You indicated that you felt he was an unreliable witness ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. For, among other grounds, his statement — and I don't
recall what that statement was — my recollection of it was that he told
the committee that on a number of occasions he had discussed this
matter with you.
Mr. Davis. That on a number of occasions, to my recollection, he
Said he had told me what was going to happen.
Mr. Moss. Is that coiTect i Did he tell you ?
Mr. Davis. No, sir. Only on one occasion.
Mr. Moss. A little earlier you made the statement that on many oc-
casions — in fact it was a constant refrain of his — this discussion of
irregularity and the expression of a desire to have the show on an
honest basis. Is that a correct statement ?
Mr. Davis. That began when he was told he was going to lose. He
did not complain about the dishonesty of the show until that point.
Mr. Moss. He did complain then ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. On these meetings with officials of NBC and the Barry &
Enright organization, you say that you cannot recall any specific in-
stances when NBC asked whether or not the charges were true.
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. Did they seem to be concerned with Whether or not the
charges were true ?
Mr. Davis. On one occasion. On the occasion, the night after the
story broke in the newspapers, we had this meeting to decide on our
countermeasures.
Mr. ]\Ioss. This was more than a year after they had first received
information indicating that charges were being made that the show
was fixed ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. On that occasion
Mr. Davis. Excuse me, sir.
I still seem to have lost a year somewhere. It could have been only
a few months or it coul d have been a year and a few months. It was
sometime after.
Mr. Moss. As I recall, the New York Post contacted your organi-
zation.
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
im'ESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 109
Mr. Moss. And indicated they had received information, and there
■was approximately a year elapsed before there was any publication
of this information in any newspaper^
Mr. Davis. There a^ain that was either about 6 months or a year
and 6 months. I can't recall.
Mr. Moss. All right, 6 months.
During this period there was no direct request to your knowledge
by NBC as to the substance of the charges, whether they were true
or false ?
Mr. Davis. No, sir.
Mr. Moss. But there was great concern expressed as to the probable
unfavorable impact should this become public ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. Then Avould you conclude that perhaps NBC was at that
point willing to be deceived and not make a specific inquiry as to the
truthfulness of the charges?
Mr. Davis. Well, at the risk of seeming evasive, I would like to
give what might seem like a long answer.
NBC is a very large organization. I don't think you could say this
is NBC unless it is General Sarnotf. And I don't know whether he
was concerned with what was going on. There are various indi-
viduals who make up the organization. I don't know if in an organi-
zation like that everybody knows what is going on at all times.
Mr. Moss. Let us brmg it down to what we are discussing.
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. The responsible officials of NBC who were in contact
with you and with the Barry & Enright organization, according to
your testimony, were primarily concerned with the unfavorable im-
pact rather than the truthfulness of the charges ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. That is all, Mr. ChaiiTnan. ., '
The Chairman. Mr. Springer.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Davis, can you give the committee the approxi-
mate date on which NBC bought this production and took it over
itself?
Mr. Davis. I believe it was around May 1957. It may have been
later.
Mr. Springer. From that date forward, this was NBC's show by
right of ownership, was it not?
Mr. Daws. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. Did any part of the Barry & Enright organization
continue to work on the production ?
Mr. Davis. The entire organization continued producing the pro-
grams as employees of NBC.
Mr. Springer. As employees of NBC ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. Then these conversations with NBC about which
you have testified took place after NBC had become the owner of the
show ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Davis, insofar as you know, was there ever a
time when it was commonly known in the trade, advertising, tele-
vision or radio, that these shows were being fixed ?
52294— 60— pt. 1 8
110 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Davis. I don't think anybody believed it of "Twenty-one."
Perhaps strangely. I think I certainly had my suspicions about cer-
tain other shows.
Mr. Springer. Did you have any suspicions about "Dotto?"
Mr. Davt^s. I never watched "Dotto." I think I would have as-
sumed that very few shows were above reproach.
Mr. Springer. Did you have any suspicion about "Tic-Tac-
Doujrh?"
Mr. Davis. No.
Mr. Springer. I take it from your answers, then, that it was not
generally known in the trade that these shows were fixed ?
Mr. Davis. Known or believed ?
Mr. Springer. Either known or believed.
Mr. Davis. I would say that it was not known, but it was probably
believed by many people.
Mr. Springer. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Davis, you have been testifying at length here
in an effort to try to get the facts behind what information you have.
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. It is not clear in my mind.
You said that you had known for some time that these shows were
being fixed, is that right ?
Mr. Davis. This one show was the only one I did know about, and
the only one I know about now.
The Chairman. I am talking about the one you are associated with,
this particular one.
Mr. Daves. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You had known for sometime that these shows
had or were being fixed ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is that from your own knowledge ?
Was that the general pattern of this particular show with the con-
testants that appeared ?
Mr. Davis. I knew — actually, the only evidence I had was that
which Stempel had given me.
The Chairman. Mr. Stempel gave you the information as to that
particular show being fixed and that was the last show that he ap-
peared on ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is what is not clear to me.
You said that was the only one you knew about, as far as Mr.,
Stempel is concerned, and yet you say you had known for some time
that they were being fixed.
Mr. Davis. There might be a misunderstanding of my words.
I knew that the show had been fixed at one point, and I had certainly
no way of knowing whether it had not been since then. I Iniew if
somebody were to say to me a year later, is "Twenty-one" fixed, I would
have to sav it has been because I knew of one case where it was. No
other contestant has ever made this kind of revelation to me.
The Chairman. Were you here yesterday when Mr. Snodgrass
testified ?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you hear his testimony ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 111
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
The Chairsian. Did you observe the kinescope of his appearance?
Mr. Davis. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Could you say whether or not that was true ?
Mr. Davis. I would say it certainly seems to be.
The Chairman. I mean from your own knowledge ?
Mr. Davis. Oh, no.
The Chairman. You had nothing to do with it ?
Mr. Davis. The first I could say about it was when I saw Snodgrass's
story in the newspapers.
The Chairman. You did not know about it prior to that time?
Mr. Davis. No, sir.
The Chairman. That is what I was trying to clear up, whether or
not you had any part in this yourself.
Mr. Da\^s. It was a peculiar situation in that Stempel was the
only one, and the only way that it could be determined was by a con-
testant telling about it because the people on the show were quite cir-
cumspect, the producers and so forth.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Mr. Davis. Thank j^ou, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. May I have one more question ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Davis, do you know how much NBC paid for
the property, including "Twenty-one"?
Mr. Davis. I can only say from the newspapers.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was it reported ?
The Chairman. I think we will have information about that
later.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was it reported as being approximately $2 million ?
Mr. Da\t:s. I have seen it reported from $2 million to $41/^ million.
The Chairman. Thank you very much for your appearance here.
The Chairman. Is Miss Rose Leibbrand here? Will you come
around, please ?
Will you please be sworn? Do you solemnly swear the testimony
you give this committee to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
out the truth, so help you God ?
Miss Leibbrand. I do.
The Chairman. Will you have a seat, please ? Will you state your
name, please ?
TESTIMONY OF ROSE LEIBBRAND
Miss Leibbrand. ]My name is Rose Leibbrand.
The Chairman. Where do you live ?
Miss Leibbrand. 2120 Massachusetts Avenue NW., Washington,
D.C.
The Chairman. You are a volunteer witness here this morning, are
you not ?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. ]Mr. Lishman, you may proceed.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Miss Leibbrand, were you a contestant on the televi-
sion quiz show, "Twenty-one" ?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. At what time did you appear as such a contestant?
Miss Leibbrand. November 1956.
112 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LisHMAN. How many times did you appear on the program ?
Miss Leibbrand. Once.
Mr. LisHMAN. Wlio was your opponent?
Miss Leibbrand. Mr. Stempel.
Mr. LisHMAN. Were you given assistance prior to your appear-
ance on this show by Mr. Freedman in the way of furnishing ques-
tions and answers?
Miss Leibbrand. I was, but I didn't know they were going to use
those questions on the air that night I was on.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Will you please state how you came to get on this
program?
Miss Leibbrand. Our public relations counsel for the National Fed-
eration of Business and Professional Women's Clubs had arranged
this as a publicity activity. At that time I was executive director of
the national federation and our president told me to go ahead and
to represent the federation on this program. So I was contacted even-
tually by a note asking me to call Barry & Enright's Productions,
and went to New York and took the examination.
Mr. LisHMAN. After you had taken the examination, were you
notified to come back?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. LisHMAN. Did you go back?
iNIiss Leibbrand. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. About what time was that?
Miss Leibbrand. That was in November 1956. I don't remember
the exact date.
Mr. LiSHMAN. November 1956. When you went back to New York
at the second meeting, were you given an examination ?
Miss Leibbrand. The first time I took the examination. The sec-
ond time I was just briefed, having practice on various questions.
Mr. LiSHMAN. When you went back the second time, did Mr. Freed-
man have a conference with you?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What took place at that meeting?
Miss Leibbrand. We discussed my going on the air, what I should
wear, how I should act, and then he had about 100 cards with ques-
tions on them, which he would run through and ask me to give him
the answers.
Mr. LiSHMAN. When you could not give a correct answer, would
he give you the correct answer ?
Miss Leibbrand. We would work it out through the talking around
about the question. He told me continuously though, these questions
had been used on the air and would not be used again, and that I
would get similar questions, but new ones.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In other words, his purpose that he stated to you
was to familiarize yourself with the procedure that would be fol-
lowed when you got on the show, when, as, and if you got on the show ?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you ever have any meetings with Mr. Enright?
Miss Leibbrand. No, sir. I just met as you would meet anyone and
that was all.
Mr. LiSHMAN. The man you principally saw was Mr. Freedman?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 113
Mr, LisHMAX. Did there come a time when you were advised by Mr.
Freedman that you were goin^ to go on the show as a contestant^
Miss Leibbrand. I was supposed to go the second time, but their
time ran out before I got on. I was made up really to go on as a
standby. So I came back the third time, and at that time I was on the
air.
Mr. LisHMAN. Would November 14, 1956, be that time ?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you go on the program November 14, 1956?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Prior to going on the program, did Mr. Freedman in-
struct you the number of points you should request?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir. He said I was not allowed to bid over 7
or 8. ^
Mr. LisHMAN. You were not to bid over 7 or 8. Were you also again
instructed on how to act while on the program ?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir. I was supposed to ham it up and sup-
posed to pretend you can't remember the answers and you are sup-
posed to do a lot of thinking.
Mr. LisHMAN. Have you ever met Mr. Stempel, other than on this
show?
Miss LeibbRx\nd. No, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Prior to the show, did Mr. Freedman also give you
the questions and answers which were asked you on the show ?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir, because he came to my dressing room and
we ran through some questions and answers again. Again he told
me they were questions which had been used, would not be repeated,
and that I would have other ones.
Mr. LiSHMAN. So when you went on the show, you had no anticipa-
tion whatsoever that you were going to be asked questions which had
already been gone over by you and Mr. Freedjnan ?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir. He also threatened me as I was about to
step on the stage. He said, "Remember, Miss Leibbrand, you are not
to bid over 7 or 8, or else." I whispered back to him, "I can't win that
way.'- He said, "Just remember you don't bid over 7 or 8, or else." I
don't know what the "else" was.
Mr. LisHMAN. "VMiat were your feelings about the show when just as
you were about to step in front of the television you were given this
information ?
Miss Leibbrand. I was furious at being boxed in, but having been
committed to represent the national federation, I could not walk out,
because our i")resident had notified 48 State presidents to alert their
share of 175,000 members to watch that show.
Mr. LisHMAN. Was it the consensus of opinion among the mem-
bers of your federation group that this was going to be an honest con-
test of knowledge ?
Miss Leibbrand. Absolutely.
Mr. LisHMAN. In fact, what happened when the questions that had
been previously given to you were propomided wliile you were on the
program ?
Miss Leibbrand. I answered them.
Mr. LisiiMAN. You answered them with the answers that Mr. Freed-
man had given to you ?
114 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Miss Leebbrand. I knew them before he gave them. They were
among the hundred he gave me. I knew the answers anyway. They
were easy.
Mr. LiSHMAN. They were the same questions ?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And the same answers?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Wliat happened to you ?
Miss Leibbrand. I won $130 and went off the air.
Mr. Lishman. What is your opinion of this entire incident ?
Miss Leibbrand. Well, I realize now, I realized when I was in the
booth when I was given the questions that the show was fixed. I also
realized it was rigged when I was absolutely prohibited, so to speak,
from bidding more than 7 or 8. I was a little chagrined and so was
our national president, that we were drawn into an organization that
had a fixed show.
Mr. Lishman, What haj^pened after the conclusion of the contest on
November 14? Did you have any conversation with Mr. Freedman
or anyone connected with Barry & Enright ?
Miss Leibbrand. No, sir. They would not even look me in the eye.
Mr. Lishman. In other words, you had to leave town without being
bidden goodby?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Mack?
Mr, Mack. I didn't have an opportunity to see this particular show
or kinescope. Did you bid less than 7 or 8 points each time ?
Miss Leibbrand. I bid 7 and I bid 6, just to show my independence.
Mr. Mack, I want to take this opportunity to congratulate you on
displaying your independence. Many of us like to be independent,,
but sometimes we are not in a hurry to display our independence.
You were thoroughly satisfied, then, that the show was fixed after your
appearance ?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir.
Mr, Mack, Do you think there was some reason that they didn't let
you defeat Herb Stempel at that time ? Was that because they thought
you might be inherently honest and not make a good contestant on the
show in the future, or did you have any idea of why ?
Miss Leibbrand, It is something that puzzles me, Wlien I was
being interviewed in the office, they kept asking me about my ethics
in regard to finances. My attitude toward handling money or my
attitude toward finances. The question was so subtle that 1 cannot
remember it. I was very much puzzled and I apparently gave all the
wrong answers.
Mr. Mack. Did they ask you if you were financially independent,
or if you were interested in financial remuneration for your efforts in
your work wherever you happened to be ?
Miss Leibbrand, They were more subtle than that. I don't know
what they were getting at.
Mr, Mack, You don't recall the answers you gave them concern-
ing your finances ?
liiss Leibbrand, I had a feeling they were very much interested in
my integrity and my attitude toward finances. Inasmuch as I was
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 115
committed to handling a budget of millions of dollars, I apparently
didn't satisfy whatever they were driving at. I don't know what
they wanted. They spent a long time questioning me from that angle.
Mr. Mack. How long have you been employed at this — is it the
Federation of Business and Professional Women?
Miss Leibbrand. I had been employed the previous July 1956 at
our national convention in Miami Beach, Fla. Previous to that I
had been a real estate broker in the State of Missouri for 7 years.
I was under bond as an insurance agent.
Mr. JSIack. You think they did not have any definite opinion that
you were relatively honest in your dealings ?
Miss Leibbrand. I hope they did.
Mr. IMack. There was one question that was raised in my mind.
It might not be pertinent to our investigation but I would like to ask
if you reported to the Business and Professional Women that this
program was fixed ?
Miss Leibbrand. Our national president called me at the studio
and wondered what happened, why I didn't bid more. I told her I
was boxed in and not allowed to bid over 7 or 8. I told her I was
surrounded with people, and I could not talk. I told her I would
call her when I got back to the hotel. I did not tell her about the
questions then.
Mr. Mack. Did you ever tell her about the questions?
Miss Leibbrand. Not until after I went before the district attorney
in New York.
Mr. Mack. Then the Business and Professional Women made no
effort to pass the word along to their membership that the reason
that you didn't go all out is because the people — all out on behalf of
the organization — ^that the program director would not permit you
to select a higher point ?
Miss Leibbrand. From the viewpoint of the National Federation
that was national publicity for us.
Mr. Mack. I know. But don't they have some ethics themselves,
and have a rather high standard? I understand that they are not,
theoretically, supposed to become involved in political contests.
Miss Leibbrand. Oh, but they do.
Mr. Mack. Yes, I know that. I had the pleasure of running against
a woman member of your organization last year, and I assure you
they do become interested in politics.
Miss Leibbrand. We sponsor qualified women on a nonpartisan
basis for office, regardless of party.
Mr. Mack. I thought this was not partisan but all of them sup-
ported her.
I was not being facetious. I did understand that your constitution
and bylaws prohibit participation in politics, and I suppose they
have rather high standards. Seriously, I was just wondering, not-
withstanding the fact that they gained nationwide publicity, that
they might be interested in informing the membership of this type
of program which has been misleading many Americans.
Miss Leibbrand. At that time we were reorganizing our national
office, and we had so many problems we did not take up that one.
However, every member that knows of this resents the idea that this
program was fixed. But we did not make a general national program
of trying to correct matters. We felt that was out of our jurisdiction.
116 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Mack. Thank you very much for your testimony.
The Chairman. Mr. Springer.
Mr. Springer. Miss Leibbrand, I take it from what you have said
that the purpose of the program, "Twenty-one," in having you on
was the wide publicity which they would receive among the 175,000
women who belong to the business and professional women's clubs;
isn't that true ?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Rogers.
Mr. Rogers. Miss Leibbrand, you showed your independence by
voting or bidding 6. Did you have any thought of showing it in
bidding 10 or 11 ?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir. I thought that out also, but I pre-
sumed under the circumstances that they would ask me questions that
would be so erudite that I could only answer them by doing research.
Mr. Rogers. In other words, you understood that the "or else"
meant that if you bid too much, they would ask you questions you
could not answer ?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir. I thought that was the inference.
Mr. Rogers. In other words, they would put you olf the show.
You understand that as long as you bid 7 or 8, there was not any way
in the world you could win with Mr. Stempel ?
Miss Leibbrand. Yes, sir, because he stopped me in the second round.
Mr. Rogers. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. Moss.
Mr. Moss. Did you have a feeling, having received the answers,
that perhaps your opponent was also given assistance ?
Miss Leibbrand. I presumed he was, especially when Mr. Freed-
man left my dressing room, after going through a group of questions,
saying, "Now I have to go and practice with the other contestants."
Mr. Moss. You really had little doubt then ?
Miss Leibbrand. I beg pardon.
Mr. Moss. You really had little doubt at that point ?
Miss Leibbrand. No, sir.
Mr. Moss. Thank you.
The Chairman. Mr. Devine.
Mr. Devine. No questions.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. Miss Leibbrand.
Mr. Davis, you may be excused. I understand yon would like to go.
Mr. Richard Jackman, will you be sworn, please ? Do you solemnly
swear the testimony you give this committee to be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Jackman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Will you have a seat? Your name is Richard
Jackman ?
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD JACKMAN
Mr. Jackman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is your address?
Mr. Jackman. 243 West Fourth Street, New York, N.Y.
The Chairman. New York City ?
Mr. Jackman. Yes, sir.
IlSr^^ESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 117
The Chairman. What is your business, Mr. Jackman ?
Mr. Jackman. I am a labor organizer.
The Chairman. Were you a contestant on the TV quiz show,
"Twenty-one"'^
Mr. Jackman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. When?
Mr. Jackman. I don't remember the exact date. It was in the fall
of 1956.
Mr. LisHMAN. October 3.
The Chairman. How many times were you on the show ?
Mr. Jackman. Just once as a contestant, sir. I came back the
following week to bow off, but only once as a contestant.
The Chairman. Mr. Lishman, you may proceed.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Jackman, how did you come to appear as a
contestant on the TV quiz show, "Twenty-one" ?
Mr. Jackson. I had been on another quiz show called "Tic-Tac-
Dough" which is on dunng afternoons and is also a Barry & Enright
production. After I was defeated on that, they asked me to take
the examination, referred to before. I took it. Evidently I passed it
so they asked me if I would like to go on it. So I was all in favor
of it.
Mr. Lishman. Who did you deal with at Barry & Enright?
Mr. Jackman. Originally with Mr. Freedman.
Mr. Lishman. Did you ever meet Mr. Enright ?
Mr. Jackman. Not until the "Tic-Tac-Dough" experience. Then I
dealt with Mr. Enright, and only Mr. Enright from that time on.
Mr. Lishman. After you had been invited to appear as a contestant,
did you have a conference with Mr. Freedman ?
Mr. Jackman. Not to my knowledge. No, I don't believe so.
Mr. Lishman. Did you have a conference with Mr. Enright?
Mr. Jackman. Yes.
Let me see now. There was a roomful of people that interviewed
me after the results of the examination came in; Mr. Enright, Mr.
BaiTy, and a girl. I forget her name.
Mr. Lishman. Miss Kader ?
Mr. Jackman. Yes, Miss Rader. Two or three other people. Mr.
Freedman might have been there at that time. They asked me ques-
tions about my pei-sonal life, and this and that. They told me I had
made a good mark on the test.
Mr. Lishman. Did you watch a kinescope of the show prior to
your appearance?
Mr. Jackman. Yes, about that time.
Mr. Lishman. Before you went on the show on October 3, 1956, did
anyone furnish you with questions and answers that were to be asked ?
Mr. Jackman. As it turned out, yes. The questions that were asked
on the show were all from a gi-oup that I had understood were prac-
tice questions.
Mr. Lishman. Wlio gave you these practice questions?
Mr. Jackman. Mr. Enright.
Mr. Lishman. "\^niere did he give them to you ?
Mr. Jackman. In his office.
Mr. Lishman. Did he tell you when he gave you those questions
that some of them would appear on the progi*am ?
118 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOVi^S
Mr. Jackman. Oh, no.
Mr. LrsHMAN. Did you read those questions very carefully ?
Mr. Jackmaist. They were never read. He had a sheaf of cards and
he would mention a category, and I would take a group of points. I
would say 7 or 9 or what all. Tlien he would ask the questions. Then
I would answer if I could. If I couldn't, he would tell me what the
answer was.
The idea was that I could judge the relative difficulty of an 8 from
an 11 or a 3 from a 9. They all seemed to be pretty well in order
getting more difficult as they went along.
Mr. LiSHMAN. How long did you spend with Mr. Enright going
over these cards and receiving the questions and answers?
Mr. Jackman. Two or three hours ; maybe more.
Mr. LisHMAN. Was that on the day on which you were to appear
on the show ?
Mr. Jackman. No. It was in the week prior to that.
Mr. LisHMAx. On the day that you were to appear on the show,
did 3'ou have another rehearsal ?
Mr. Jackman. No, not like that.
Mr. Enright had said — I didn't know exactly when I was going to
go on. He appeared very nervous this one time, and said, "You are
in a position to destroy my career." I didn't understand that.
I said I certainly didn't want to do that. What exactly did he
want.
Pie said, "Never mind, you will find out."
Mr. LisiiMAN. On the day that you were to appear on the show,
♦lid you have a meeting with any representative of Barry & Enright?
Mr. Jackman. Mr. Enright appeared in my dressing room prior
to going on the show.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Wliat happened at that time ?
Mr. Jackman. He said, "This is very serious. Please ask for spe-
cific numbers against your opponents. Ask for a 9 and an 8," or
something like that. I don't remember the exact ones. A 10 and an
11. Ask for a 6, 7, 8. I can't recall the exact sequence. He said
you have to ask for these specific numbers on the question.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Up to this point, did you think that was an honest
show ?
Mr. Jackman. Well, I had thought — it was only the fourth show.
I had not seen any of the previous ones. I know "Tic-Tac-Dough"
Iiad been honest. I had not received any assistance. It seemed to be
perfectly up and up.
Mr. LisiiMAN. As far as you were concerned, you thought you were
entering into an honest contest?
Mr, Jackman, Well, except for the atmsophere that something is
up ; you know,
Mr. LisiiMAN. But when you were told the point values to choose,
did you begin to feel that maybe this show was not on the u]-> and up?
Mr. Jackman. Surely.
Mr. LisuMAN. On that evening that you appeared on October 3,
1956, on the "Twenty-one" show, were you asked and were you given
the same questions and answers that you had been previously supplied
by Mr. Enright?
Mr. Jackman. All of the questions that appeared on the show were
included in the group of what had been introduced as test questions.
IN\^ESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 119
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you remember them when you were on the show ?
Mr. Jackman. Yes. I knew them anyway.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You gave the answers that had previously been
supplied ?
Mr. Jackman. Yes.
Mr. LisHMAN. They were not difficult questions?
Mr. Jackman. Not especially.
Mr. LisHMAN. But up to the time you appeared on the show, until
it happened, you didn't know those questions were going to be asked
of you, did you ?
Mr. Jackman. No, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Were you told how to act on the show ?
Mr. Jackman. No. Just be myself as I had been on "Tic-Tac-
Dough."
Mr. LisiTMAN. I think at this time, Mr. Chairman, we would like
to have a kinescopic showing of the October 3, 1956, program on which
Mr. Jackman appeared.
The Chairman. Before the showing of the kinescopic appearance of
the witness. I think since it is almost 12 o'clock, the committee will
recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon, at which time we may proceed
with the kinescopic showing, after which we will have Mr. Art Frank-
lin and Mr. Kletter, and the following witnesses. We will have the
representative of the National Broadcasting Co.
The committee will recess until 2 o'clock.
(Thereupon, at 12 o'clock noon, the conmiittee recessed, to resume
at 2 p.m., same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Is Mr. Camp in the room, who is here in the interest of Mr. Fisher?
Is Mr. Levine in the room ?
(No response.)
The Chairman. j\Ir. Lishman, you may proceed.
Mr. Lishman. Before showing the kinescope, Mr. Jackman, may I
ask whether you remember some of the questions and answers which
were furnished you in advance of your appearance on October 3, 1956?
TESTIMONY OF EICHAED JACKMAN— Eesumed
Mr. Jackman. Yes; there was one about the first world series.
Wlio were the teams involved and when it took place. One about
Madam Schumann-Heink, Ernestine Schumann-Heink, the singer.
One about Castel Gondolpho, the Pope's summer residence. I think
that may have been one of them. Some of them were in the whole
group of practice questions. I think that was on the air, though.
Mr. LiTSHMAN. Before going on the program, these were the ques-
tions that were asked you and the answers jjiven to jon by Mr. En-
right?
Mr. Jackman. These were among them. One about the invasion
of Ethiopia, I think ; something about Haile Selassie.
Mr. Lishman. I would now like to ask that we have a kinescopic
reproduction of the October 3, 1956, performance of "Twenty-one"
in which Mr. Jackman appeared as a contestant.
(Showing of kinescopic reproduction.)
120 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
The Chairman. Mr. Lishman.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Chairman, may we have incorporated in the
record when completed a transcript of the sound effects we just heard
on this kinescopic reproduction of "Twenty-one" quiz show held on
October 3, 1956?
The Chairman. Let it be included in the record.
(Transcript of the sound track follows :)
Announcer. Geritol, America's No. 1 tonic — Geritol, the fast-acting, high-
potency tonic that helps yoii feel strong fast, presents the exciting quiz program
"Twenty-one."
[Music]
Announcer. Two players racing to score 21 points, each in a soundproof tele-
vision studio, not knowing the other one's score, w ith $500 riding on each point
as they both play "Twenty-one." And here is your host, Jack Barry.
Barry. Thank you so very much, you're very nice. This is "Twenty-one," the
new television game, where two players compete to score 21 points by working
in tliese soundproof studios. They don't know each other's scores, and the %vin-
ner gets $500 a point for the difference between their scores. We're going to get
things going right now as we meet our first two players.
Announcer. From Miami, Ha., Miss Phyllis Manson, and returning with
$.''(,000 from Princeton, N..T., Mrs. Marietta Hodeley.
Barry. Welcome back to "Twenty-one." Phyllis Manson and Mrs. Hodeley.
We're glad to have you both back. How are you tonight?
Manson and Hodeley. Fine.
Barry. All right : good. Well now, ladies and gentlemen, a« you all who were
watching remember, last week Miss Manson and Mrs. Hodeley played against
each other. Mrs. Hodeley had won $.5,000. She decided to risk it by playing
against Phyllis Manson and they started playing. They both answered once
and they got it right and then they answered once and they got it wrong and
they were both back to zero. So we asked them both to come back this week to
play a brand new game with Miss Hodeley's $5,000 at stake. But right before I
came out here, Phyllis, Mrs. Hodeley said something to me which I believe she
should tell you and our audience. Yes, Mrs. Hodeley?
Hodeley. Uh, I have certain obligations to meet, Mr. Barry
Barry. Yes?
Hodeley. (continuing). That I couldn't possibly meet if I lost any part of the
$5,000 that I've already won.
Barry. I see.
Hodeley. If I lost any part I would never forgive myself, and for that reason
I would like to stop now.
Barry. You'd like to take your $5,000 and stop now?
Hodeley. Stop now.
Barry. Would that be agreeable to you, Phyllis?
Manson. Yes, sir, Mr. Barry.
Barry. I know we did start playing but we are back at zero. We wouldn't
want to do anything — anything in the world to make you be apprehensive about
continuing playing. You told us last week how important the money is to you.
Would take you 3 years to make this kind of money in your bookshop, so with
our blessings there'll be a check from Geritol for $5,000 waiting for you oflfstage.
Lots and lots of good luck, and thank you for playing "Twenty-one." [Applause.]
Hodeley. Thank you.
Barry. Well. Phyllis, she took $.5,000 home and now we have to see what
you're gonna do. We have to get a player for you, so let's meet our next
player.
Announcer. From Oneonta, N.Y., Mr. Richard Jackman.
Barry. Welcome to "Twenty-one," Dick Jackman. It's a pleasure to have you
here.
jACKivf an. It's a pleasure to be here.
Barry. You two folks are going to play against each other and in order for
Phyllis to know a little bit about you, here are some things that she should
know about you Dick.
Annoltncer. He attended the University of Buffalo, he spent 2 years in
Europe, assigned to the Ai-med Forces network. In order to become a writer he
has supported himself by working on the railroad, in a factory, and as a con-
struction hand.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 121
Baery. You're really determined to become a writer, aren't you, Dick?
Jackman. Well, ifs what I should do, you know, I — it's what I do best — I — it's
my life — I
F>ABRY. It means everything to you?
Jackman. Well, more than anything else in the world, actually.
Barry. Well, Dick, you have wonderful spirit about it and we'll see how
you make out here on "Twenty-one." You both are familiar with the rules of the
game. The Terry twins will escort you into the studios. Don't forget to put
on the earphones and the best of luck to both of you. [Music]
All right. On we go with "Tweuty-one." The players — the players inside can
never hear unless I turn their studios on the air with these switches in front of
me, and of course they'll never know each other's scores. I'm going to turn
Miss Mansou's studio on the air. Can yovi hear me, Phyllis?
Manson. Yes. I can.
Barry. Very good, now you know the object is to get to 21 as fast as you can.
You do it by answering questions which have a point value from 1 to 11.
The iirst category, astronomy. Now, how much do you know about astronomy?
If you know a lot, take a high point question, otherwise take a low point
question. How many points, from 1 to 11?
Manson. Six.
Barry. For 6 points : Within the constellation Canis Major is a so-called Dog
Star, the brightest star in the heavens. What is this star's name?
Manson. Sinus.
Barry. Sirius is right. You've got 6 points. Dick Jackman, we're starting on
our way to 21. The category is astronomy. How many points do you want,
from 1 to 11?
Jackman. Excuse me. I'll try 7 points.
Barry. For 7 points. Because it helps guide mariners across the Seven Seas,
Ursa Minor is one of the most beloved of all constellations. What are two more
popular names for this consellatiou?
Jackman. Uh, Ursa is a bear and — ah — a little bear, and it's a little bear.
Barry. That's one.
Jackman. The Little Dipper.
Barry. Right. You have 7 points. Relax.
Miss Manson, you have 6 points. I want to caution you now. If you miss a
question we have to deduct points from your score. The category — founders of
world religions. How many points do you want?
Manson. Seven.
Barry. For 7 points. The religion known as the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints has it headquarters in Salt Lake City. What is the other
name by which this religious group is known and what is the name of its
founder?
Manson. I believe that's Mormonism. • '
Barry. Right : and the name of its founder?
Manson. John Mormon.
Barry. I'm sorry. It's Joseph Smith. You don't score. We must deduct
7 points from your score. You only have 6 points. We don't put you below
zero, but you are back to zero. Better luck on the next round, Phyllis.
Dick Jackman, you have 7 points. The category — founders of world religions.
How many points do you want?
Jackman. Uh, 10—10. I'll try 10 points.
Barry. 10 points. That's a lot of points. Although Hindus cannot trace their
origin to any one founder, Orthodox Hindus believe in three divine personalities.
Name all three of them.
Jackman. Uh, one is the — uh — the caste is after Brahman
Barry. That's one.
Jackman. Brahman. Oh, ah, I think I know it. It's a Brahman, Vishnu
Barry. That's two.
Jackman. Vishnu and uh — ilh, the bad fellow, Siva. Siva.
Barry. That's right — and you now have 17 points.
I want to caution both of you not to divulge your scores. This is the one
point you know about where at the end of the second round of questions neither
of you has reached 21 and now you get an opportunity to stop the game if you
want to. If you think you're ahead you may want to stop the game. If either
of you stops the game, either one of you, then whoever has the high score at this
point will be the winner, at $500 a point in the difference in your scores. If
neither of you want to stop we will continue on to 21 without any more inter-
122 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
ruptions. I'm going to give you some time to think it over. If either player
stops the game now, Dick Jackman will win $8,500 but he doesn't know it, be-
cause they do not know each other's scores.
If either of you want to stop the game, you must tell me so right now.
You want to stop, Dick? Then you win $8,500. Congratulations! [Applause.]
Tou heard what happened. This fellow stopped the game. He had 17 points
that mattered. You won yourself $8,500. Relax, will you, fellow? [Laughter.]
Now in just a moment — just a moment we're going to find out whether you want
to continue playing or not. Gee, Phyllis, I'm awful sorry. I really am, because
I know you wanted and needed this money desperately. I wish you could both
be winners. We do have a consolation prize for you. We never let anybody go
home with less than $100.
Manson. That's wonderful.
Barry. There'll be a check for $100 waiting for you. Sorry it can't be much
more. Good night and thank you for playing.
Calm down. You're trembling a little bit.
Jackman. I can't understand it.
Barry. Now listen, I think you need a breather. Will you stand over here a
second. Just relax and we'll get right back to you, Dick, and find out what your
decision is. Friends, let's give him a chance to relax for a moment. How about
you out there? Did you ever start the day off feeling full of pep and energy and
now like Dick Jackman now find out that somewhere along the middle of the
afternoon you begin to feel tired and worn out? Well, science explains why you
may often feel tired. It's because of iron deficiency anemia. Or, as the Geritol
peeople call it, "tired blood." Now you check with your doctor, and to feel
stronger fast you take Geritol — the high potency tonic that begins to strengthen
tired blood in just 24 hours. Yes, siree, in just 1 day Geritol iron is in your
bloodstream carrying strength and energy to every part of your body. Just two
tablespoons of liquid Geritol or two of the Geritol tablets right here contain twice
the iron in a pound of calves' liver. It does, indeed. So, if tired blood is your
problem, here's how to keep your strength and energy up. Take Geritol every
day. Either the good tasting liquid Geritol or the handy Geritol tablets. Be-
lieve me, you'll feel stronger faster within 7 days or you get your money back.
[Music]
Dick, now that you've calmed down a little bit, let me ask you a few things.
You worked as a railroad worker, a construction worker, a laborer. How come
you had so many different jobs?
Jackman. Well, I — some of them were seasonal jobs. For instance, I worked
in my hometown. That's Oneonta, N.Y., that's the town I
Barry. Always trying to make money so you could write.
Jackman. Well, I always kept writing no matter where I was. I live in New
York now ; I don't work like that, too.
Barry. How many things have you written, about how many stories ?
Jackman. Well, uh, I've written considerably more — I get dissatisfied with
some of them and all of them and tear them up, so I — well, I have 28 now that
I
Barry. Twenty-eight that you've written. How many have been published?
Jackman. None of them.
Barry. Oh, and you're not discouraged?
Jackman. Well, I keep plugging, I guess— — -
Barry. Well, I can see you are a plugger and maybe you'll earn enough money
here on the program to help you write something really startling so you can
really get it published. Now, Dick, you know the rules of the program here.
You got $8,500. You can take that money and quit, or you can continue playing.
But, if you decide to go on playing and you lose, whatever you lose will be
deducted from your $8,500. I know what this money means to you, so I want
you to think about it carefully. First of all. let's meet our next player.
Announcer. From Memphis, Tenn., Miss Mildred Scribner.
Barry. Welcome to "Twenty-one," Miss Scribner. Shake hands with Dick
Jackman.
Jackman. A pleasure, ma'am.
Barry. He has just won $8..500, and in a moment he wants to give us his de-
rision about whether he wants to play against you or not. To help him, let's tell
him some things about you.
Announcer. She is a graduate of the University of Wisconsin. She is a
teacher at the Humes High School in Memphis. One of her pupils was Elvis
Presley.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 123
Barry. The audience is enjoying that a little bit. To meet someone in the
flesh who actually knows Elvis Presley. Uh, how long have you known Elvis
Presley ?
ScRiBNER. Oh, I knew him all through his high school.
Barry. You were one of his teachers?
ScRiBNER. I was one of his teachers, uh-huh.
Barry. Well, you know. Miss Scribner, some distinguished critics like Jack
Gould of the New York Times and Jack O'Brien of the Journal American and
others have severely criticized Elvis Presley for some of his performances.
What's your reaction to that?
ScRiBXER. Well, I personally don't think that's quite fair, because the — the
boy isn't capable of doing anything degrading, and the — I've known him quite a
lot personally, and I don't think that in the fact as a teacher that I wouldn't
like him if I thought he was doing something degrading.
Barry. And you did like him?
Scribner. And I did like him.
Barry. You found him a charming boy, you tell me.
Scribner. Yes.
Barry. Well, I'm sure the critics had nothing in mind other than construc-
tive criticism and you don't think he does anything degrading in his per-
formance?
Scribner. No. No: I don't think he does. He's a — the — it's not a bit worse
than most of the things you see on the air today.
Barry. I don't think I'm going to try to defend things. As a matter of fact,
I have not had the pleasure of seeing Mr. Presley except once on a subdued
Steve Allen program, or he was subdued that night, but I'm sure his many fans
would be happy to know how you feel about him. Dick, you've heard about
Miss Scribner. You've got to $8,.'^)00. You want to take it and quit, or do you
want to risk it by playing against her?
Jackman. Well, I'll take another stab at it.
Barry. You want to go on. All right. Good enough. Now both of you tako
your places in the soundproof studio. Don't forget to put on those earphones,
please, and the best of luck to both of you. [Music]
Barry. All right, here we go. I'm gonna turn Miss Scribner's studio on the
air. Miss Scribner, can you hear me?
Scribner. I can now.
Barry. Try to get to 21 as fast as you can. Here is the first category. Politi-
cal leaders. How many points do you want, from 1 to 11 ?
Scribner. Seven.
Barry. For 7 points. Washington was the first President of the United
States. Who was the second President and to what political party did he
belong?
Scribner. John Adams, and he's a Federalist.
Barry. Right, and you have yourself 7 points. Relax. Miss Scribner. All
right, Dick Jackman, you be very careful. You have $8,500 at stake. The cate-
gory, political leaders. How many points do you want to try for?
Jackman. Oh, uh, 8, I guess.
' Barry. 8 points. Sinclair Weeks, George Humphrey, and James Mitchell all
occupy iwsts in President Eisenhower's Cabinet. What are their posts?
Jackman. Uh, let's see, that's Sinclair Weeks in Commerce
Barry. Right.
Jackman. And Mitchell, is, uh, uh, he followed Dirk — uh. Labor !
Barry. Right. You have one more. Humphrey.
Jackman. Uh, he's Treasury — the Treasury Department.
Barry. Right, and you have 8 points.
Barry. Miss Scribner, you have 7 i)oints. The category is "Italy." How many
points do you want to try for?
Scribner. Seven.
Barry. For 7 points. Italy's first attempt at empire building under Mussolini
succeeded. Tell us the country annexed in this war and the name of its king.
Scribner. Tell what?
Barry. Italy's first attempt at building an empire under Mussolini succeeded.
Tell us the country annexed in this war and the name of its king.
Scribner. The country annexed by Italy?
Barry. Yes.
Scribner. Um, well it's along the Adriatic Sea, the — part of Austria — Hun-
gary.
124 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Barry. I beg your pardon?
ScRiBNER. It was a part of Austria — Hungary tliat
Barry. You'll have to give me the exact name, please, Miss Scribner.
ScRiBNER. Uh, the part of Austria.
Barry. No, I'm sorry. The country was Ethiopia.
Scribner. Oh, I thought you said Europe. You didn't.
Barry. No I did not. I'm sorry, and the name of its king was Haile Selassie.
Scribner. Yeah.
Barry. I'm sori-y you didn't score. We have to deduct the 7 points. You're
back to zero, but better luck on the next round.
Dick Jackman, you have S points, the category is "Italy." How many points do
you want to try for?
Jackman. Oh, uh, 7 points, I guess.
Barry. For 7 points. Italy's first attempt at empire building under Mussolini
succeeded. Tell us the country annexed in this war and the name of its king.
Jackman. Uh, the first conquest, the first thing he tried was, uh
Barry. The first attempt, yes.
Jackman. That was — uh — Ethiopia.
Barry. That's right. And the name of its king?
Jackman. Of the, uh — is Haile Selassie.
Barry. Right. You now have 15 points.
I want to caution you — I want to caution both of you now, don't divulge your
scores ; you can hear each other. This is the only time you can. You have an.
opportunity now to stop the game if you want to and I suggest you only do that
if you think you're ahead. If either of you stops the game, whoever has the
high score at this point will be the winner. If neither of you want to stop we
will continue on to 21 without any further interruptions. Now I'm going to give
you some time to think it over. If either player stops the game now, Dick .Jack-
man will win $7,500 more, making a grand total of $16,000. If either of you want
to stop the game you must tell me so right now. No? All right then, we'll con-
tinue on to 21. Relax, Dick.
You have no points at this moment, Miss Scribner, but let's see how you do.
The category, "Inventions." How many points do you want to try for on in-
ventions?
Scribner. About 8.
Barry. Who invented the passenger elevator? The passenger elevator.
Scribner. Otis.
Barry. Right, and you have yourself 8 points.
Dick Jackman, you have 15 points. The category is "Inventions." How many
points do you want to try for?
Jackman. Why, 6— I'll go for 21.
Barry. You want to try for 21?
Jackman. Yeah.
Barry. If you answer this question correctly you'll have 21 points and you will
be the winner. For 6 points, who invented dynamite?
JACKMAN. Uh, the peace prize, uh, uh, Nobel.
Barry. Nobel is right. You've got 21 points. Congratulations, Dick. You've
just won yourself $6,500 more. Put your earphones back on ; you're now winning
$15,000. Congratulations to you. Congratulations. He's winning $15,000. In
a moment we'll find out whether you want to continue.
Gosh, here. Miss Scribner. I hate to get you all the way up here from
Memphis, Tenn., to go home with practically no money at all. We never let
anybody go home with less than $100. We hope you've enjoyed your stay
here in town and we've been delighted to have you here on our program. You
have a check from Geritol for $100 waiting. Have a pleasant trip back. Thank
you very much, Miss Scribner.
Scribner. Thank you. Good night.
Barry. Dick, I know you have to calm down now. So do I, so what do you
say we both listen to my good friend Bob Sheppard. Bob?
Sheppard. Well, thank you very much, .Tack. Now friends, an important
new advance has been made in the relief of common rheumatic and arthritic-like
pains due to stiff aching joints. It's Zarumin. Now, if common rheumatic
and arthritic-like pains made it difiicult to sew, walk or move about, try
Zarumin. Zarumin must give you more freedom from these annoying pains or
your money back. Now this is a Zarumin pill — and it offers this new advance.
It is actually a pill within a pill. And over here is a model of the pill. Now,
as you can see, Zarumin contains an oiiter pill that gives fast temporary relief
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 125
and an inner pill that brings more relief hours later. Thus giving longer
lasting relief. The result — once again you're able to do the things that pain
may have been preventing. Take Zarumin as directed. If pain persists, see
your doctor. That's Z-a-r-u-m-i-h, at yom- drugstore now.
Babrv. Well, Dick, you've had a moment to recuperate. You have $15,000.
You're faced with the decision again whether you want to continue playing or
risk it by, by — do you want to take your money or whether you want to risk
it and keep playing. So, to give you some information that'll help you decide,
let's meet our next player.
Announcer. From Bronxville, N.Y. — Dr. John Gi"ay.
Baery. Well, Dr. Gray, backstage you heard the news. This fellow won
$15,0UO and now he has to decide whether he wants to play against you or not.
Let's give him some information and that'll help him about you.
Announcer. He was born in Calcutta, India. He attended high school in
Shanghai. He teaches Spanish and French at Hunter College. He has a col-
lection of over 40,000 stamps.
Barry. That's Dr. Gray "in a nutshell," and Dick Jackman, you have $15,000.
Do you want to take that money and quit or would you risk it all by playing
again?
Jackman. Well, I want to try it again. I want to go on.
Barky. You want to go on. All right, on we go, fellows. Take yom* places
in the studios and the best of luck to both of you. Carry on. Here we go.
On goes Dr. Gray's studio. Can you hear me, Dr. Gray?
Gray. Yes, I can hear you fine.
Barry. Here is the first category— "Nicknames and people." How many
points do you want to try, from 1 to 11?
Gray. WeU, let's ti-y 7.
Barry. For 7 points. This Senator from Illinois was known as the "Little
Giant." Identify him.
Gray. He was the man that — uh — worked with — uh
Barry. Will you come a little closer that way ; that's right.
Gray. He was the man that fought with Lincoln; Stephen Douglas.
Barry. Right, you have 7 points. Good for you, sir. All right, Dick Jack-
man, here we go again. $15,000 at stake. The category — "Nicknames and
people." How many points do you want to try?
Jackman. Uh, I'U try 9 on that.
Barry. Nine points. Who was known as "Mother of all the Doughboys?"
Jackman. Uh, uh, she's a great favorite of my mother's, Schumann-Heink.
Barry. Madame Schumann-Heink. You've got yourself 9 points.
Dr. Gray, you have 7 points. The category, this is very timely, is "Baseball."
How many points do you want to try for?
Gray. Well, let's try for 8 ; 8 points.
Barry. Eight points. Here's your question : Although attention in the
batting department was centered this year on the American League's Mickey
Mantle, the National League had its own batting champion. Who was it who
had the highest batting average this year in the National League?
Gray. Uh, gee, it must be somebody from either the Dodgers or Milwaukee
Barry. Could you come a little closer and talk a little louder, Doctor? Thank
you.
Gray. The only man I can think of that's a real good batter is Stan Musial.
Probably wrong on that.
Barry. I'm sorry, you are. It's Henry Aaron of Milwaukee, with a .328.
You lose your 8 points and you're back to 0. Better luck on the next round,
Dr. Gray.
Gray. Thank you.
Barry. Dick Jackman, you have 9 points. The category is "Baseball." How
many do you want to try for?
Jackman. Uh, I'll — I'll try 10. I guess.
Barry. You really know your baseball.
Jackman. Yeah.
Barry. Here is your question, for 10 points. Tell us — tell us what year —
what year the first world series was played between the National league aud
the American League, and what two teams played?
Jackman. 1903.
Barry. That's right.
Jackman. Modern baseball. It was the Red Sox in the American Leagaie, I
know.
52294— 60— pt. 1 9
126 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Barey. Right
Jackman. I think, uh, uh, Honus Wagner — ah, Pirates, Pittsburgh Pirates.
Barry. You're right. And you have 19 points.
Now, men, I caution you now, don't divulge your scores, because you can
hear each other. We're at the end of the second round. Neither one of you
scored 21 and you have a chance to stop the game right now if you want to. I
caution you not to do it unless you think you are ahead. If either of you
stops the game, whoever has the high scoi'e at this point will win. Now I'm
going to give you some time to think it over and please do. If either player
stops the game now, Dick Jackman will win $9,500 more, giving him a grand
total of $24,500. If either of you want to stop the game you must tell me so
right now.
Jackman. I'll stop, I think.
Barry. Come out here, young man. You've just won yourself $24,500. Did
you hear that, Doctor?
Dr. Gray, our time is running along. I wish we had a lot of money for you
but we do have $100 consolation prize and thanks for playing with us. Thank
you very much, Doctor.
Right, $24,500. I wish I could talk to you all night, but our time is running
out. Will you come back next week and meet your next player and tell «B
whether you're going to continue or not?
Jackman. Why, sure, Jack.
Barry. Boy, it's been a terrific night. Thanks for playing "Twenty-one."
Goodnight, Dick Jackman. Oh — he looks so bewildered. I hope that I'm not,
because I would like to remind you that if you've been feeling weak and run
down because of iron deficiency anemia, or, as we call it, tired blood, you should
take Geritol every day, either liquid or tablet. You'll feel stronger fast within
7 days or your money back. And, mothers, will you remember that the Geritol
people also make Geritol, Jr. It's just as effective for growing children a»
regular Geritol is for you. Say, I hope you enjoyed the program tonight. Did
those of you in the studio enjoy it? Well, I hope you at home enjoyed it. I
hope you will come back next week and see Dick Jackman and say, watck my
friend Walter Winchell on his show Friday night. He's going to have a great
show. See you next week. Thank you and good night, everybody.
Announcer. If you often can't sleep — your nerves on edge — try this new
sleeping tablet — Sominex, that contains not just one but three medical ingredi-
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Geritol, American's No. 1 tonic. Geritol, the fast-acting high-potency tonic —
helps you feel stronger fast, has presented "Twenty-one." Geritol also brings
you the new "Herb Shriner Show" every Tuesday night over another network.
Consult your papers for time and station. And now this is Bob Sheppard wish-
ing you good health from I'harmaceuticals, Inc., who brings you Geritol,.
Zarumin, and other fine quality drug products.
Mr. LisHMAN. Now, Mr. Jackman, when you appeared on this pro-
gram, you were told the exact questions that would be asked and the
exact answers ?
Mr. Jackman, Oh, no.
Mr. LiSHMAN. So when you went on that program you didn't know
exactly what questions were going to be asked you and what answers
you were to give ?
Mr. Jackman. Oh, no.
Mr. LiSHMAN. So, therefore, you thought it was an honest show ?
Mr. Jackman. When I went on. But after
Mr. LiSHMAN. That is just what I am coming to. You just wait.
When you went on that show you thought you were engaging in an
honest contest of skill ; is that correct ?
Mr. Jackman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Is it a fact that in the warmup sessions previous to
the show, Mr. Enright furnished you with a whole list of questions and
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 127
answers, included in which were the actual questions and answers that
have just been given on this show ?
Mr. Jackman. Well it was never done with a list. He just asked me
the questions and then I would answer.
Mr. LiSHMAN. He furnished you ?
Mr. Jackman. Yes, with a whole group.
Mr. Lishman. With a series of questions and answers ?
Mr. Jackman. Yes.
Mr. Lishman. Wliich series of questions and answers included the
very ones we have just seen on this reproduction ; is that correct ?
Mr. Jackman. Exactly.
Mr. Lishman. Were you instructed as to what point values to take
on this program ?
Mr. Jackman. Yes. He came to the dressing room.
Mr. Lishman. At what time?
Mr. Jackman. Just before the show was to go on the air.
Mr. Lishman. What did he tell you ?
Mr. Jackman. He said that liis career was in jeopardy and that I
was to take as a personal favors to him these certain number of points
on each one, the ones that showed up on there, seven and eight, I think.
Mr. Lishman. Did he instruct you when to stop ?
Mr. Jackman. After each sequence, he said take it and stop, take
it and stop, he said.
Mr. LiSHoNiAN. When the questions were asked you on the show which
had been previously furnished to you by Mr. Enright, Avere you sur-
prised while you were on that show ?
Mr. Jackman. I was surprised at the first one. After that I figured
tJiat they would be among the others, too.
Mr. Lishman. What was your reaction while you were in that isola-
tion booth, knowing that the fixed questions were coming along?
Mr. Jackman. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know whether
to walk out of the box or whether to go along with the charade.
Mr. Lishman. You were an exceptionally good performer on this
show. Were you coached in any of those acting mannerisms ?
Mr. Jackman, No. The coach would have probably eliminated a
good bit of it and saved me some embarrassment.
Mr. Lishman. As I understand it, you won $24,500.
Mr. Jackman. Yes.
Mr. Lishman. As stated in the sliowing we have just seen, is that
correct ?
Mr. Jackman. That is right.
Mr. Lishman. What hap})ened immediately after the show?
Mr. Jackman. Mr. Enright told me to come to his office the fol-
lowing morning. Then I went out to the plaudits of my friends, im-
pressed with my performance.
Of course, that was excruciating for me when I realized there had
been fraud involved. So I was just sick about the whole business.
I acknowledged their congratulations as well as I could, laiowing
what I knew. Then I went home to bed. , .,
Mr. Lishman. What did you tell Mr. Enright?
Mr. Jackman. I saw^ him the next morning and I told him that I
couldn't be a party to the whole business.
128 INV^Si'lGATrON OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Lis'hman. Do you recall the substance of the language you
used in so informing Mr. Enright that you were refusing to go along
with a fixed game ?
Mr. Jackman. I told liim — I don't recall the conversation ver-
batim — I know I said I didn't think it was proper for me to do it.
I didn't want to make any abstract condemnation of what he was
doing, but it just wasn't correct for me.
Mr. LisHMAN. What did Mr. Enright say ?
Mr. Jackman. He suggested that I think it over over the week-
end and see him again on Monday. In those days the show was on
Wednesday evenings rather than Monday.
Mr. Ltshman. Did you think it over ?
Mr. Jackman. I flew to Buffalo to talk to my mother who had seen
me win the money. That was the hardest part, to tell her that it
probably wouldn't be forthcoming, that I was not going to continue
with the business.
Mr. LiSHJMAN. Did you tell your mother that you were going to
refuse accepting the $24,500 ?
Mr. Jackman. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Then what happened ?
Mr. Jackman. '\'Vliy, she agreed that was the proper thing to do
rather than to go on with the show. So I flew back to New York and
I met with Mr. Enright that Monday morning. He said that if I
were to continue that the reaction to the show would have been so
good that he could guarantee me $100 a week for the rest of my life
with the winnings from the show.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did he make any other attractive offers to you be-
sides that ?
Mr. Jackman. No. That was attractive enough.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Jackman, you are not a rich man ?
Mr. Jackman. That is true enough.
Mr. LiSHMAN. How badly did you need money ?
Mr. Jackman. Oh, I didn't need it, I gTiess. I wanted to have some
of — my family was running out of money pretty rapidly and I wanted
some for that. I didn't need much myself.
Mr. LiSHMAN. How much were you earning at this time ?
Mr. Jackman. I seldom make over $30 or $40 a week, I guess.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In your conversation with Mr. Enright, what words
substantially, did you use in telling him that j^ou would not take
the $24,500?
Mr. Jackman. I told him that it was embarrassing to me, that my
family had seen me win the money and it was a bitter disappointment
to them, but I had explained it to my mother and I did not feel I
could continue with the performance.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did Mr. Enright urge you to take some of the money
i f you would not take it all ?
Mr. Jackman. Yes. He gave me a check for $15,000.
Mr. LiSHMAN. $15,000.
Mr. Jackman. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And you accepted it ?
Mr. Jackman. Yes.
Mr. LisHMAN. I hand you a paper and ask if you can identify this
paper.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 129
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Jackman. That looks like it.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Will you please describe what that paper is?
Mr. Jackman. It says in the upper left-hand comer, "prize money,
show of 10-10-56, $15,000, pay $15,000 and no hundredths to Kichard
Jackman, 210 Thompson Street, from Dojo, Inc., Daniel Enright."
Mr. LiSHMAN. Why did you take the $15,000 when you refused to
take the $24,500?
Mr. Jackman. Well, I would have taken a subway token to get
back downtown at that time, I guess. I wanted to be as far out of
the business as I could but I wanted to assuage some of my family's
misfortune, I guess, or surprise and disappointment.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did Mr. Enright explam why he would not give you
the full amount ?
Mr. Jackman. I didn't ask for the full amount. He gave me that.
He said more would throw the budget out of whack.
Mr. Lishman. What happened the next week after this ?
Mr. Jackman. I agreed to go on and say that I was not going to
continue with the game. I made an appearance on the next show and
said the pressure was too much and that I would not be continuing.
Then they had the regular show.
The following week was when Mr. Stempel first came on.
Mr. Lishman. Looking backward on this, do you think you might
possibly have been scheduled to be one of the first big money winners
on this progi-am ?
Mr. Jackman. Oh, he told me that I would be on for 4 or 5 weeks
anyway. The promise of a hundred dollars for life was on the basis
of that, of course.
Mr. Lishman. I have no further questions, Mr, Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Mack, do you have any questions?
Mr. Mack. I would like, Mr. Jaclanan, merely to ask you to clear
my mind, you turned down the $24,500 which you won.
Mr. Jackman. What I turned down was the $100 a week to go on
further. I considered that the $24,500 was for the show's per-
formance.
Mr. Mack. In other words, you were willing to accept the $24,500 ?
Mr. Jackman. Well, yes.
Mr. Mack. It was not your intention to refuse to accept the full
amount of $24,500 after you had consulted with your family?
Mr. Jackman. Well, it depended on whether it had been necessary
to go on again to get the $24,500, I would have refused it. It was
proferred. I thought about that at the time. The money would
have just gone directly to the Barry & Enright organization.
He said it was not accounted for in the records. Mr. Enright always
took special pains to point out that it was only he and I who were
dealing with the thing, and the fact that he had paid me less than
was won on the show was known only to himself and me.
Mr. Mack. In other words, the viewing public thought vou ac-
cepted the $24,500?
Mr. Jackman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mack. You considered this as reimbursement for your partici-
pation or, shall we say, acting in the show ?
Mr. Jackman. I do not consider that I had any moral claim to the
money, sir.
130 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Mack. But you did accept $15,000?
Mr. Jackman. Yes.
Mr. Mack. You accepted that as reimbursement for yt)ur partici-
pation in the show ?
Mr. Jackman. I guess that clears it up for my own conscience, yes.
Tliat was for the evening's sacrifice.
Mr. Mack. I certainly admire your honesty and wish to take this
opj^ortunity to commend you on the forthright statements that you
have made concerning the show. You said you had no coaching what-
ever as to how you should conduct yourself on the show ?
Mr. Jackman. Only one thing that had been pointed out to me on
"Tic-tac-Dough," which was to pause before answering. That is com-
mon, I guess. I was shouting them out as soon as I could think of
the answers when I was first on "Tic-tac-Dough." That was men-
tioned once again, that you should pause before answering.
Mr. Mack. Did you have any mstructions as to what kind of clothes
to wear or your general appearance ?
Mr. Jackman. No. I was wearing this suit, as a matter of fact
Mr. Mack. I notice in the kinescope that you appeared to have
more hair than you have presently. I did not mean to be saying that
you should buy some products that are also advertised on television,
but I did notice that your hair seemed to be quite bushy and it seemed
to have a definite wave.
Mr. Jackman. I think after watching the show, it sort of stands on
end a little.
Mr. Mack. You explained it to my satisfaction. Thank you very
kindly.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Springer ?
Mr. Springer. Mr. Jackman, when did you first appear on "Tic-tac-
Dough"?
Mr. Jackman. In September, I believe it was. September 1956.
Mr. Springer. How many times were you on that program ?
Mr. Jackman. Twice.
Mr. Springer. How much money did you earn on that program ?
Mr. Jackman. $500.
Mr. Springer. That is the total of both programs ?
Mr. Jackman. No — ^yes. It works on the same basis. You win until
you are defeated. Then your victor receives a portion of what had
been your previous winnings as his due.
Mr. Springer. Whom did you deal with on "Tic-Tac-Dough" ?
Mr. Jackman. Mr. Freedman.
Mr. Springer. Only with Mr. Freedman ?
Mr. Jackman. Yes. There was not much dealing, actually, com-
pared to "Twenty-one."
Mr, Springer. On that program were you furnished any questions
or answers ?
Mr. Jackman. None whatsoever. I would not have gone on to
"Twenty-one" if I had known.
Mr. Springer. You were entirely on your own on "Tic-Tac-Dough" ?
Mr. Jackman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. When you came to "Twenty-one" did you deal with
Mr. Freedman ?
IlSrV'ESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 131
Mr. Jackman. No. All of the dealings were with Mr. Enright.
Mr. Springer. Entirely with Mr. Enright on this program ?
Mr. Jackman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. At any time did you sign a release of any rights
that you had against Barry & Enright or the advertising agency?
Were you ever asked to sign such a statement ?
Mr. Jackman. No, sir. There is a formal thing that you sign when
you take the examination. It is just a formality. It was not any-
thing particularly like that.
Mr. Springer. Did you sign any statement at any time either while
on the program or afterward to the effect that the program was not
fixed?
Mr. Jackman. Oh, no.
Mr. Springer. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Rogers.
Mr. Rogers. Mr. .Jackman, do I understand you that when you went
and talked to ]Mr. Freedman about this, or was it Mr, Enright, that
he told you tliat you would not have the same opportmiity to stop and
take the $24,500 on the next show ?
Mr. Jackman. I don't quite understand you, sir.
Mr. Rogers. As I saw the kinescope, when a person was ahead like
you are, the next time they came on the show before the show started,
they had an opportunity to stop and take the money right then, or
go on with the show.
Mr. Jackman. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. Were you given that opportunity ?
Mr. Jackman. It was not advanced to me. I insisted upon it. He
wanted me to continue for another 4 or 5 weeks.
Mr. Rogers. As I understood you, you had no objection to taking
the $24,500 you had already won.
Mr. Jackman. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. "Wliy didn't you just go to the show and when it came
time, and they say ''Do you want to stop?" say "I will stop and take
my $24,500."
Mr. Jackman. That would have meant agreeing with them that
I was going to go on. I didn't see any necessity of surprising them
like that. I think they were surprised enough that I didn't go on.
Mr. Rogers. I think they have been surprised quite a number of
times about this. Did they approach you about taking the $15,000?
Mr, Jackman. Xo. When I went to see Dan Enright and told him
I was not going on any longer, if necessary that I would give up the
$24,500, he said — once again he pleaded with me to continue and then
said, "Well, here is $15,000."
Mr. Rogers. "\Yliy did he do that ? Did you tell him you were going
to expose him ?
Mr. Jackman. No. I just said I didn't want to have anything more
todoMnthit.
Mr. Rogers. I can't understand this budget consciousness he seems
to have had, to hand you $15,000.
Mr. Jackman. I don't know. I suppose I could have subsequently
brought suit for it after I thought it over.
Mr. Rogers. You could have brought suit for $9,500 if you had a
lawsuit in the first place in addition to your 15, couldn't you ?
132 rsr^'ESTiGATiox of TELE^^SIO^' gnz shows
Mr. JACK^rA^'. Yes.
Mr. EoGERS. Did vou consider that as a settlement to keep your
moiuh ?luir alx^ur this ?
Mr. .TACK^rAX. Oh. not at all. no. I just vranted to get -as far away
from the whole business as possible. I was displeased with it all.
Mr. EoGEKS. How loner before yon told Mr. Enright or Mr. Freed-
man that yon did not want to go on with the show ? How long before
that did you know that it was a fraudulent or uimioral show?
Mr. Jackmax. I didn't know imtil I was in front of the cameras
until the qtiestions came down.
Mr. EoGERS. Yoti did not realize it imtil then ?
^Ir. .Tacx3iax. Xot completely. As I say. there was an aura pretty
well when he appeared in my dressing room and asked me to take these
specitic numbei-s. He didn't say what it was going to do. but he still
said take these. It was getting more and more obvious that there was
some hanky-panky.
Afr. EoGHRS. How many times were you on ?
Mr. Jackmax. Just once.
Mr. EoGZKS. Just one time. You won that $24,500 at that tim.e ?
Mr. Jackmax. Yes.
Mr. EoGERS. As soon as yoti realized what had happ>ened is when
you decided not to take the $24,500 if you had to go on the show to
get it.
Mr. Jackmax. That is ricrht.
Mr. EoGERs. But you did accept the Slo.OOO and went on your way ?
yiv. Jack3eax. Yes.
Mr. EoGERs. You say there was not any coaching beforehand except
as to the points you would take ?
Mr. Jack3iax. Tliat is right.
Mr. EoGT^rs. Did they mess your hair up for you ?
'Sir. Jackmax. Xo. that takes care of itself.
Mr. EoGZRS. I noticed you scratched your hair more in that t>to-
eram that you have here. "Were you more afraid of those questions
than these ?
Mr. Jackmax. Heavens yes.
Mr. EoGEEis. More afraid of those questions ?
Mr. Jac53iax. Yes. Tis is an honorable busine^ here.
^tr. EoGTES. There is no mcHiey at stake here, either, is there ? I
noticed you said he told you he would give you $100 for the r^t of
your life. Did he STiarantee how Ions you would live ?
!Mr. Jackmax. Xo. !My family is famous for its lon^vity. though.
Mr. Er-GERs. I think that is alL !Mr. Chairman.
The Cftatr3iax. !Mr. Lishman. do you have any further questions?
yir. LiSEMAX. One more question. !N1t. Chairman.
Mr. Jackman. at the time when the newspapers were carryinsr the
STory that there was a grand jury investisration. were you approached
by any representative of Barrv & Enri^ht ?
^fr. Jackmax. Yes. Mr. Freedman called me and said that I would
probably be served a summons. First he told me, or he asked me. to
come TO ^fr. Enriirht's oSoe to speak to him. I complied. Mr. En-
right told me that he erpected thit all of the quiz contestants would be
sobpeoaed and he asked me what I was going to do. .So I told him,
you knofw, I would wait for the subpena. I would not perjure myself.
I would have to teU the storv when it came.
INVESTIGATIOX OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 133
Mr. LiSHiiAX. IVliat did Mr. Enright say to that ?
Mr. Jack]Max. He didii't look pleased. He realized that there was
nothing he could say.
Mr. LiSHMAX. Later on, did Mr. Freedman see you again about this
matter ?
Mr. Jack:max. Yes. He came down and asked me what I was
going to do again. I just repeated what I told Mr. Enright.
Mr. LisHMAX. Did he try to persuade you not to do that ?
Mr. jACKiiAX. Oh, no. He expressed disappointment, but he didn't
try to threaten me or pressure me or anything like that.
Mr. LiSHMAX. Did he say you were going to ruin the career of Mr.
Enright ?
Mr. Jackmax. Oh, I think he mentioned that again. I told him
that I didn't have any sense of hostility toward Mr. Enright. I
didn't want to see him hurt. But I would have to tell the truth under
oath. If that hurt him, that is just how it had to be.
Mr. LisHMAx. Mr. Jackman, I think you have been one of the most
truthful persons our investigators have encountered in this whole
sordid affair, and I want to congratulate you.
Mr. Jackmax. Thank you very much, sir.
The Chairmax. Mr. Jackman, let me also on behalf of the com-
mittee thank you for your appearance here and the testimony you
have given on this problem.
Mr. jACK]NrAX. Thank you, sir.
The Chairmax. Mr. Art Franklin. "Will you be sworn, please?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give to this committee
to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Fr-\xkljx. I do.
TESTIMONY OF AKTHUR FEANKLIN
The Chairmax. What is your full name ?
Mr. FiL^XKLix. Arthur Franklin.
The Chairmax. "What is vour address. ^Ir. Franklin ?
Mr. Frankun. 300 "West 49th Street, New York City.
The Chairmax. Wliat is your business or profession ^
Mr. Fraxklix. Eight now I don't have a profession.
The Chairmax. Do you have a business ?
Mr. Fraxklix. Xo. I have retired. I have left the public rela-
tions business. I have written a play. I am a playwright.
The Chairmax. You are a playwright by profession, Ihen ?
Mr. Fraxklix. That is right.
The Chairmax. Mr. Lishman, you may proceed.
ISIr. Lishmax. Mr. Franklin, at one time you were employed by
Barry & Enright ?
Mr. Fraxklix. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishmax. In what capacity ?
Mr. Fraxklix. Public relations counsel.
Mr. Lishmax. "Were you associated with ^Mr. Davis ?
jSIr. Fraxklix. He was associated with me.
Mr. Lishmax. Are you familiar with the testimony that has been
given here by the witness, Stempel ?
Mr. Fraxklix. Yes, sir.
134 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LisHMAN. That he was given assistance in advance of his
appearance?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Do you have any knowledge that this actually
occurred ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Would you please state the facts that you know con-
cerning this fixing of Mr. Stempel?
Mr. Franklin. Stempel on several occasions in the course of several
weeks confided to me that he had been fixed, as you call it, been given
the answers in advance, and it turned out to be indisputable.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In 1957, as appears from the testimony of Witness
Davis, it became evident that Stempel had given his story to two
newspapers. Is that correct?
Mr. Franklin. That is correct.
Mr. LiSHMAN. When did that first come to your attention ?
Mr. Franklin. I received a telephone call from the executive editor
of the New York Post, Paul Sand.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Can you fix the approximate date of that tele-
phone call?
Mv. Franklin. I could not help you at all on the dates.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Would it be in the late summer?
Mr. Franklin. It would be in that area.
Mr. LiSHMAN. 1957?
Mr. Franklin. Yes.
Mr. LisiiMAN. What did he tell you ?
Mr. Franklin. He told me that Herb Stempel had came to him'
with this fantastic story and he had put five reporters to work on
tracking it down and he wanted to let me know he was doing it.
I thanked him for alerting me to that. I said, because I had had
a long personal relationship with Mr. Sand, I said then before he
made up his mind, after he had his five reporters digging up the story,
I wanted to have the opportunity to tell the other side, that is all.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you report this conversation to Mr. Enright?
Mr. Franklin. Yes. One correction to what I said before. Before
that I had been alerted by Al Davis who had been alerted by Mr.
Enright about the Post making inquiries.
Wiien Paul Sand of the New York Post called it was not exactly
a surprise.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you meet with Mr. Enright and tell him that
there was evidence that Stempel had been given assistance on the TV
program ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes. I think you are referring to the time before
Stempel lost to Van Doren. Stempel was in a very nervous state.
In fact he had almost broken completely down and was crying. The
sum and substance of his disturbance was that he had been forced
or was going to be forced, as he put it, dumped on the program.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did Mr. Stempel tell you who was forcing him to be
dumped on the program?
Mr. Franklin. Yes. He said Dan Enright had.
Mr. LiSHMAN. When you confronted Mr. Enright with these facts,
what did Mr. Enright say to you ?
Mr. Franklin. It is a little difficult to tell a client and a man you
know, almost as a friend for 9% years, that he was committing some-
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 135
thing as dishonest and as insane as that. I tried to convey this in
my own Avay by talking- under to him, in a sense. That is, if I were
bringing it out across the table, whicli would ordinarily have been
the thing to do, I couldn't. Enright blinked his eyes at me almost
as if he were a schizophrenic. Just looked and said there was nothing
he could do about it.
I warned him, naturally, as a public relations counsel should in a
situation like this, about the disaster tliat had to follow in the wake
of such a terrifying action. As I said before, Enright — I did not l^now
it then. I thought this was a unique situation — I guess Enright had
just gone too far in committing the production of the program to
this policy.
Mr. LiSHMAN. At about the time you were having this conversa-
tion with Mr. Enright, did you hear from representatives of NBC
that there was a story that might be broken in the newspapers
concerning Stempel ?
Mr. Fr.\nklin. Well, that was always going on because Stempel
would stop people in the streets and tell them the sad story.
Mr. LisHMAN, I am asking you if the representatives of NBC took
it up with you.
Mr. Franklin. We had a few meetings in which none of this kind
of thing was discussed. It was usually something relating to publicity
or public relations and it was my function there to get nobody to do
anything on account of anything that would happen to rock the
situation.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you receive instructions from Mr. Enright at
or about this time to do whatever you could to suppress this story?
Mr. Franklin. I told Dan Enright it was impossible to suppress
the story. When Mr. Sand, for instance, called, I did not ask him not
to print it. It would have been ridiculous. I would have been
confessing that my client was guilty.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did he ask you to take any measures to prevent
it?
Mr. Franklin. He asked a lot of things. I only gave him advice on
a realistic level. I never lied to Dan Enright. It was not necessary.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What did he ask you to do ?
Mr. Franklin. He asked me to try to keep it out of the papers,
I told him it was impossible. We could only pray,
IMr. LisiiMAN. Were you present at a meeting in late summer of
1957 with Mr. Moore and Mr. Syd Eiges and Mr. Enright?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was the matter of the Stempel expose discussed
at that meeting ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Could you state the substance of the discussion at
that time in the late summer of 1957 ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes. A man named Ellis JVIoore, whom I did not
know but I was told was in tlie capacity of press agent for NBC had
received a tip from someone he knew on the Journal-American that
the Journal-American was going to do what the New York Post had
attempted to do some 6 months before, dig up the story and print the
facts.
This meeting was in relation to that. I had been asked to attend.
Again, I cautioned everybody not to commit an action. That was my
136 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
theory. If nobody did anything, they had a chance of surviving this
thing.
Mr. LiSHMAN. At that meeting did Mr. Enright deny to anybody
that he had given assistance to Mr. Stempel ?
Mr. Franklin. It never came up. It was just automatically as-
sumed by everybody there that Herb Stempel was a raving lunatic.
Mr. Lishman. Was that assumed by you and Mr. Davis and Mr.
Enright?
Mr, Franklin. No. I happened to be veiy fond of Herb in a kind
of relaxed, detached way. I felt very sorry for him.
Mr. Lishman. All three of you gentlemen knew that he was being
fixed, did you not ?
Mr. Franklin. I only knew about it after the situation had gotten
out of control. Nobody told me anything mitil they needed my advice
and services.
Perhaps this will explain it better. Al Davis, who worked for me —
incidentally, in the best interests of truth, Al Davis was an associate of
mine and not a partner and was an account executive functioning for
Barry & Enright directly and working for me.
He reported back to me everything that happened. I was in the
process of writing a play at that time and I never attended any of the
routine meetings. When there was trouble I was called in. There
was trouble, so I was participating.
Mr. Lishman. At the time of this meeting Mr. Stempel had already
told you that he had received the assistance in advance ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes. I have to go back a little and give you some
of the nuances.
Al Davis, by a coincidence, had gone to the same city college that
Herb Stempel was attending at the time. He also lived in the next
block in the same community. The two of them had struck up a
friendship. From this tliey had become very personal.
From this, Stempel, who liked to talk a good deal, told Al Davis
about the fixing of the program. Al immediately reported that to me,
anticipating a problem which, naturally, came up in the next few
weeks. But he brought Herb Stempel to me.
When I saw Herb I recognized that he was disturbed. He was in
trouble. He had been plucked from obscurity and suddenly when he
walked down the street or walked into a restaurant, people were offer-
ing him free steaks. It sort of threw him. Everybody asked for his
autograph. He was not the same person.
Mr. Lishman. At this meeting with Mr. Eiges, Mr. Moore, and
Mr. Enright, did you discuss measures by which you could mitigate the
impact of the Stempel expose ?
Mr. Franklin. That question seems very vague to me. I really do
not quite know what you mean.
Mr. Lishman. At that discussion, did you really go into the fact
as to whether or not Stempel was telling the truth or not ?
Mr. Franklin. As I said before, there was a delicate balance which
I always maintained. I talked directly in a kind of vague way.
Mr. Lishman. Did the people from NBC give you an answer in the
same vague and delicate way ?
Mr. Franklin. The people from NBC did not seem to know what
was going on but I was used to that. I dealt with them for many,
many years before.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 137
Mr, LiSHMAN. Was there a discussion there as to what steps should
be taken to keep the story from breaking in the newspapers?
Mr. Franklin. No; because NBC was so terrified about the possi-
bility of this all being true that they sort of kept their hands as clean
as possible by "kicking it under the carpet."
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Davis testified that as a result of that meeting
it was decided that everybody would go home and "sit tight and play
it by ear," I believe were his words.
Mr. Franklin. It sounded like something I said once.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was that the consensus of that meeting ?
Mr. Franklin. Pretty much. That was usually the consensus of
every meeting.
Mv. LiSHMAN. Was this meeting, Mr. Franklin, with NBC shortly
after the time when NBC had purchased the property for a sum in
excess of $2 million, so a breaking of this story would render the
property valueless ?
Mr. Franklin. Well, no. Again that question is not specific
enough for me.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I will ask the question more specifically.
Do you know when the property was sold to NBC ?
Mr. Franklin. I do not remember the dates ; no.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Approximately ?
Mr. Franklin. I put all of that out of my mind. It is almost im-
possible to remember. I can remember it in juxtaposition to the events
that happened.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was this meeting after the sale ?
Mr. Franklin. Which meeting are you referring to ? I have lost
track.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In the late summer of 1957.
Mr. Franklin. I could not tell by the date. I would have to know
by the information you want.
Mr. LiSHMAN. This is the meeting we have just been discussing
and at that time didn't NBC own the show ?
Mr. Franklin. I am lost. I must confess I am lost here.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you have subsequent meetings with representa-
tives of NBC?
Mr. Franklin. After the stories broke there were naturally some
meetings with NBC. Up until then there were not any meetings that
are worth even talking about here.
Mr. LiSHMAN. How about the meeting in 1958 with Mr. Bilby ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes ; I remember that one.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What happened at that meeting ?
Mr. Franklin. Well, my job is to protect Barry & Enright. I was
trying to get NBC to participate in a joint statement which would give
Barry & Enright some kind of stability as far as the newspapers go.
It was very obvious to assume that if NBC didn't come out with
some statement defending them, the tide of the newspapers would
just swamp them.
Mr. LiSHMAN. At that time did you tell them the story was not true ?
Mr. Franklin. We never discussed that.
Barry and Enright — no, Barry was not there, but Dan Enright
was — Dan Enright defended himself very stoutly. I never said the
story was not true because I knew it was.
138 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LisHMAN. Did Enright say it was not true ?
Mr. Franklix. Enright lias always said it was not true wherever
he went.
Mr. LiSHMAN. At that meeting, too ?
Mr, Franklin. Yes.
Wliat he said — well, let me put it as clearly as I can remember it.
I don't particularly recall the exact discussion. I don't remember
whether Ken Bilby or Tom Er^dn, the legal counsel, asked Dan En-
right directly was it true. All I can remember was Dan Enright
denying it being true.
Mr. Lishman. Are you familiar with the press statement of August
28, which has been read into the record yesterday ?
Mr. Franklin. Which one is that ? There were quite a few.
Mr. Lishman. That is the press statement wherein NBC stated it
had made a thorough investigation and found the charges — I will
quote it to you.
Mr. Franklin. Yes ; I remember that.
Mr, LiSHMxVN. You remember ?
Mr. Franklin. I remember. That was the essence of the meeting
we were just talking about.
Mr. Lishman. Had there been any real investigation as to whether
the charges were true or untrue ?
Mr. Franklin. You probably have more information about that
than I do.
Mr. Lishman. Do you Iniow ?
Mr. Franklin. I don't know of any. I don't know that they did or
didn't conduct an investigation. So anything I would say would be
just a guess.
Mr. Lishman. After this meeting with the NBC people in August
1958, did you have anj^ other meetings with them ?
Mr. Franklin. There were continuous meetings.
Mr. Lishman. About the same matter ?
Mr. Franklin. The situation was twisting and turning every 20
minutes, I was always on call at the time,
Mr. Lishman. Did anybody at NBC ever ask you if Stempel's story
was true ?
Mr. Franklin. No, sir. I had very little contact with NBC
directly in those days.
Mr, Lishman. Before you appeared before the grand jury, did Mr,
Enright have a meeting with you ?
Mr, Franklin, Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHiMAN. Who else was present besides ]Mr. Enright?
Mr. Franklin. IMy lawyer was there, and Al Davis.
Mr. Lishman. Who was j^our lawyer ?
Mr. Franklin. A man named Edwin JSI. Slote.
Mr. Lishman. Was it suggested at that meeting that you should
not tell the truth before the grand jury ?
Mr, Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. Yes?
Mr. Franklin, Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. Who gave that advice ?
Mr. Frvnklin. Ed Slote.
Mr. Lishman. Did Mr. Enright give similar advice ?
IISrV'ESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 139
Mr. FRANKLiisr. Enright did not say much then.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Were you told that if you would tell the truth that
you should leave the country '?
Mr. Franklin. I was told that if I told the truth and everybody
else lied, I would be convicted of perjury.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were you told that the onlj^ alternative to your
telling the truth was to leave the country ?
Mr. FiLVNKLiN. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Who told you that ?
Mr. Franklin. Ed Slote, very dramatically.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did he tell you where to go ?
Mr. FrzVnklin. Not quite like that.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did he suggest that the Cocos Islands had no extra-
dition treaties ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir. He knew about a treasure hunt I had
become involved in, a combination of shooting a treasure motion pic-
ture and treasure hunt in the Cocos Islands and he suggested gomg
over to the islands, which I was not averse at doing.
Mr. LiSHMAN. But you did not ?
Mr. Fr-vnklin. Xo, I did not. I got very mad. I decided then to
tell the truth completely instead of part of it.
]Mr. LisiiMAN. You appeared before the grand jury and told the
truth?
Mr. Franklin. It was not quite tliat simple.
I did avoid the gi'and jury summons for a long time. That was
not out of loyalty to anyone, but of my own interest. I Iniew as soon
as I appeared before the grand jury I would be cut off the payroll.
Mr. LiSHMAN. But eventually you did appear ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, they got me.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Mack, do you have any questions ?
Mr. Mack. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chaiioian. Mr. Springer ?
Mr. Springer. ]\Ir. Franklin, you were present, as I understand it,
at two conversations about newspaper publicity when NBC representa-
tives were present ; is that true ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. On both of those occasions was Tom Ervin present ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. As I understand it, he was chief counsel for NBC ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. Did he also represent Barr}' & Enright ?
Mr. Franklin. No, sir. Not to my knowledge. I would be very
surprised if it were so.
Mr. Springer. Did Mr. Ervin, acting as general counsel, ask the
really penetrating questions with reference to Stempel's testimony
as to whether or not there was any truth in what Mr. Stempel had
given to the newspapers up to tliat time ?
Mr. Franklin. No, sir. But that was not surprising. That was
the first time I ever met Mr. Ervin. I don't think he needs any
defense from me. It is not surprising tliat he did not ask because
it was so fantastic. I could not believe it myself.
]Mr. Springer. At that time when these two conversations took place
did 3^ou know that the program had been fixed ?
140 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Franklix. Did I know it ?
Mr. Springer. Yes.
Mr. Franklin. Yes, I knew it. I knew that Herb Stempel had
been fixed. I did not know about the rest of the program. As a
matter of fact, Enright swore to me that Stempel was the only one.
Mr. Springer. But insofar as you know, neither Mr. Ervin nor
anybody for NBC made a separate investigation to determine whether
or not Stempel was telling the truth ?
Mr. Franklin. No, sir.
Mr. Springer. I take it from the tenor of your testimony, when you
said that "NBC sort of kicked it under the carpet," that they didn't
express any particular anxiety about determining whether or not this
was the truth ; is that correct ?
Mr. Franklin. It would seem so.
Mr. Springer. Did you get that impression from talking to either
Mr. Moore or Mr. Ervin ?
Mr. Franklin. I never talked to Mr. Moore directly. He was part
of a discussion. I hardly remember saying anything to him directly.
Mr. Springer. However, this was the impression you gained overall
from what took place in the conferences ?
Mr. Franklin. Well, it struck me then as sort of a situation where
a husband may suspect a wife, but he loves her too much to ever
want to really know, you know. NBC loved Barry & Enright in
those days.
Mr. Springer. I think we understand more or less what you mean
by that statement.
Do you recall the approximate date when this program was sold to
NBC?
Mr. Franklin. I really can't. I don't know the date.
Mr. Springer. Did you continue to work on this program after it
was sold to NBC?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. Insofar as you know, as a public relations counsel,
no investigation was made by NBC either before or after they pur-
chased the program ; is that correct ?
Mr. Franklin. To my knowledge.
Mr. Springer. After they had purchased the program, did you
work very closely with the public relations counsel for NBC ?
Mr. Franklin. No, sir. Al Davis visited them every week. I
never went near them.
Mr. Springer. In other words, Davis really handled this, not you ?
Mr. Franklin. It was a routine visit in which, I suppose, the
physical presence of somebody representing a specific function had to
be there. There were always newspaper people present who asked
questions. Al had been an account executive functioning between
Barry & Enright and myself for so many years that he just continued
in that capacity.
I had been making plans to leave the public relations business and
this in a sense was grooming Al Davis to take over because when I
left the business I gave the rest of it to Mr. Davis.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Franklin, did Mr. Slote, your attorney, advise
you privately, or at the conference with the organization on October
3, that it was not a violation of the law, either State or Federal, to
fix the program ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 141
Mr. Franklin. He never went that far.
He threatened me, he bullied me. He did a lot of other things. He
never went that far.
Mr. Springer. He did not truly inform you as to your legal status
or liability with reference to the charges that had been made against
this program, did he ?
Mr. Franklin. No.
Mr. Springer. Did he ever tell you that if you went before the
grand jury and told the truth, there would be no way in which you
could be prosecuted for any offense ?
Mr. Franklin. No.
Mr. Springer. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Your entire employment was with Barry &
Enright?
Mr. Franklin. I don't understand the question.
I work for many people.
The Chairman. In connection with this matter ?
Mr. Franklin. I do not understand the entire employment part.
Barry & Enright were just one of my clients. They were an im-
portant client. They paid $35,000 last year.
The Chairman. None of your other clients had anything to do with
"Twenty-one"? . , .
Mr. Franklin. No.
The Chairman. That is what I am talking about.
Mr. Franklin. I was confused ; I am sorry.
The Chairman. Was NBC a client of yours ?
Mr. Franklin. No.
The Chairman. You did not work for NBC in any way ?
Mr. Franklin. No.
I see what you mean now. I had nothing to do with NBC.
The Chairman. I wanted to get clear in connection with the
"Twenty-one" show what your part was.
Mr. Franklin. This is a little new to me.
The Chairman. Mr. Kogers.
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Franklin, where were you born ?
Mr. Franklin. I didn't hear you.
Mr, Rogers. Wliere were you born ?
Mr. Franklin. I was born in Brooklyn, N. Y.
Mr. Rogers. Were you born under the name of Franklin ?
Mr. Franklin. Is it pertinent to the testimony here ? You didn't
ask that of Mr. Jackman.
Mr. Rogers. I will call Mr. Jackman back and ask him.
Mr. Franklin. If you do that, I will tell.
Mr. Rogers. I think the question ought to be answered.
Mr. Franklin. May I ask why? I don't have any reason not to
tell you, but I am just curious.
Mr. Rogers. If you have no reason not to tell me, why don't you
tell me, and then we will discuss that.
Mr. Franklin. I would like to know your reason for asking that
question.
Mr. Rogers. My reason is I want to know whether you are going
under the same name now that you were born under.
Mr. Franklin. Is it pertinent to the testimony here ?
52294— 60— pt. 1 10
142 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr, Rogers. That will be determined when we get through w4th it.
Mr. Franklin. All right. Is it an offense if I don't answer that
question ?
Mr. EoGERS. Is it a what ?
Mr. Franklin. Is it some offense if I do not answer ?
Mr, EoGERS, I don't think w^e can send you to the penitentiary,
Mr, Franklin, That is all I want to know, I prefer to skip it, if
it is possible. I don't think it is the business of this committee,
Mr, Rogers. I am going to insist on the question being answered
unless you want to take the 5th amendment.
Mr, Franklin. If you give me no recourse except to, I suppose in
order to win the argument I will. But I prefer not to argue.
Mr, Rogers, I prefer not to argue either. I asked a question and I
want an answer.
Mr. Franklin. If you give me the reason for your asking I will be
happy to give you the information.
Mr. Rogers. I don't have to give you any reason at all. I asked the
question and I want an answer to it.
Mr. Franklin. Then perhaps I don't have to answer.
Mr. Rogers, Do you refuse to answer ?
Mr, Franklin. I insist on my rights of not answering a question
which I feel is not pertinent to the testimony here or my function here.
Mr, Rogers. Mr. Chairman, I ask that he be required to answer the
question. I think it is pertinent. It is a question that can go to the
credibility of the witness.
Mr, Franklin. I have not refused to answer any questions here.
I have come here very willingly. I think it is an intrusion on my
personal and private life.
The Chairman. In what way, Mr. Rogers, is it pertinent to the
questions you are asking ?
Mr. Rogers. If the Chair please, it is pertinent for the purpose of
determining whether or not the man has been under any criminal
indictments, whether he has operated other businesses under other
names.
The Chairman. I think you can ask him those questions.
Mr. Franklin. I have never committed a crime mider any name.
Mr, Roger. Let me ask you this question. Have you ever had 3'our
name changed ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers, To Franklin ?
Mr, Franklin, Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers. How many times have you had it changed ?
Mr. Franklin, Just once. My brother did that, not I.
Mr. Rogers. Your brother did that ?
Mr. Franklin. That is right, my older brother.
Mr. Rogers. What was your name prior to that time ?
Mr. Franklin. I think it is none of your business.
INIr. Rogers. I am going to ask the Chair that he be required to
answer the question. I think it is pertinent. This man has been
giving some testimony actually as a part of a fraud on the American
public.
iNIr. Franklin. I represent the American public, too. I am aware
of it.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 143
Mr. Rogers. I think it is important to know who is doing the testi-
fying and where they come from.
Mr. Franklix. It is also important to know who is asking the
questions.
The Chairman. The Chair will make this decision.
Mr. FiLANKLix. I am sorry.
The Chairman. The Chair again inquires, Mr. Rogers, as to the
pertinency of the question for any additional possible questions you
might have.
Mr. Rogers. I have told the Chair previously what it was. I also
think that he ought to answer the question for the purpose of a com-
plete identification of the witness. I don't think you can completely
identify a witness unless you know who he is and where he came from.
He has given some testimony here that is of interest to this entire
country. I think we certainly are entitled to know who he is and
where he came from.
Mr. Franklin. I have told you where I come from.
Mr. Rogers. We cannot tell that until we find out what his name
is and where he came from.
The Chairman. Mr. Franklin, you testified you were born in New
York City.
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
The Chairman. And you were reared in New York City.
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
The Chairman. And you had a previous name.
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
The Chairman. Which was changed.
Mr. Franklin. Yes.
The Chairman. By court order.
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
The Chairman. And changed to the name of Franklin.
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
The Chairman. And you have lived all of your life in New York ?
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
The Chairman. Then you have what you feel are substantial rea-
sons yourself in not identifying your previous name ?
Mr. Franklin. My only reason is this. I don't think he has any
business asking me that question. That is the only reason I have.
It is purely technical or emotional.
The Chairman. You have reasons of your own that you would pre-
fer not to identify ?
Mr. Franklin. Absolutely.
The Chairman. I tliink under the circumstances, Mr. Rogers, it is
a matter of the man's own rights. The court itself — of course, the
record itself is very clear wherever it was. Where was this where you
had your name changed ?
Mr. Franklin. In New York City.
The Chairman. That was on the records in New York City.
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
Tlie Chairman. That would, of course, be available in case the
gentleman pursued the matter.
Mr. Rogers. I won't pursue it further if the Chair is going to liold
that tliis man can refuse to answer the question without pleading the
fifth amendment. That is the very point. If he wants to take the
144 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
fifth amendment, he has the right to take it, but until he takes it, I
think he ought to answer all the questions that are pertinent.
The Chairman. Yes. If the gentleman from Texas would advise
the Chair what is the pertinency of the question which we have imder
consideration here, then the Chair will rule on that.
Mr. KoGERS. The gentleman from Texas has stated to the Chair
that it is pertinent for the purpose of completely identifying the
witness.
The Chairman. The Chair feels that the witness has been identified.
Mr. Rogers. Let me ask the witness this question, then.
Mr. Franklin, when was your name changed ?
Mr. FiLVNKLiN. Some years ago.
Mr. Rogers. What year ?
Mr. Franklin. I forget exactly. Some years ago, say, several.
Mr. Rogers. Was it changed in New York City ?
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
Mr. Rogers. In what court.
Mr. Franklin. I don't remember. Lawyers take care of those
things. It was purely teclinical. I had been using the name of Frank-
lin all my life.
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, I think the witness is proving the per-
tinency of the testimony. He knows certainly when it was done.
There is not any w^ay in the world to check the records on this thing
unless this man gives us the information.
Mr. Franklin. I think you might be wrong. I don't know exactly
when we had a conference at which time during all of those situa-
tions which came up were there.
Mr. Rogers. What county was it in ?
Mr. Franklin. I don't know. If this is so
Mr. Rogers. How old are you now ?
Mr. Franklin. I am 42 years old.
Mr. Rogers. How long ago was it that your name was changed ?
Mr. Franklin. About 5 or 6 years ago.
Mr. Rogers. About 5 or 6 years ago ?
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
Mr. Rogers. And you can't remember that ?
Mr. Franklin. I just remembered it for you, didn't I ?
Mr. Rogers. You said your brother had your name changed.
Mr. Franklin. He had his name changed. He had his name
changed a long time before that, at which point I had begmi using
the name of Franklin. Is this clear to you now, Mr. Rogers ?
Mr. Rogers. No, it sure isn't.
Mr. Franklin. Let me explain it to you.
Mr. Rogers. All right.
Mr. Franklin. We are taking some valuable time.
Mr. Rogers. It is not too valuable to get the facts.
Mr. Frankijn. These are the facts, Mr, Rogers. Wlien I was a
very young lad my brother, who is quite some years older than I,
changed the name to Franklin, which incidentally is very close to the
original name.
Mr. Rogers. Your older brother changed his name to Franklin ?
Mr. Franklin. That is right. The name that I have now. Is that
clear now, Mr. Rogers ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 145
Mr. Rogers. Some years ago your brother did that. I am not wor-
ried about your brother. I am worried about you, Mr. Franklin.
Mr. Frankux. You wanted the facts, didn't you ?
Mr. Rogers. Yes.
Mr. Franklin. I am telling you the facts.
Mr. Rogers. All right. Go ahead.
Mr. Franklin. He changed his name legally. I began using the
name Franklin which is many years ago.
Mr. Rogers. How many years ago ?
Mr. Franklin. Oh, 20 years ago, more.
Mr. Rogers. Twenty years ago ?
Mr. Franklin. Something like that.
Mr, Rogers. You started using the name Franklin ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes. Maybe more than that, maybe 25.
Mr. Rogers. That was not your real name.
Mr. Franklin. I used it as a writer. It was a pen name. I was
a writer.
Mr. Rogers. Did you ever use your real name at that time for any
purpose ?
Mr. Franklin. There was no purpose to use it. I was a writer.
Mr. Rogers. Did you or didn't you ?
Mr. Franklin. I said there was no purpose to use it; therefore
I didn't.
Mr. Rogers. You didn't ?
Mr. Franklin. To all purposes I was using the name of Frank-
lin. Five or six years ago, I don't remember exactly which, it might
have been 7 or 8, or it might have been 4 or 5, I changed it legally.
That is the story of my name.
Mr. Rogers. You said four or five, you changed it legally ?
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
Mr. Rogers. You mean to tell this committee that you can't re-
member the county in which you had that changed, or the court?
Mr. Franklin. I could take a guess, but I might be wrong and you
might make a Federal case out of it.
Mr. Rogers. If a Federal case is in order, one will be made out of
it, if I have anything to do with it.
Mr. Franklin. Yes. I will come back later. I would like to
talk to you again.
Mr, Rogers. Let us go on. You remember all this that you have
talked about back in 1957 but you can't remember anything before
that ? Is that your testimony ?
Mr. Franklin. Let me correct you, Mr. Rogers. I just told this
committee that I could not remember back in 1958.
Mr. Rogers. That you what ?
]Mr. Franklin. That I could not remember dates, I told the com •
mittee here I could not remember dates.
Mr. Rogers. I am not talkmg about dates. I am talking about the
county in which you lived. Do you remember that ?
Mr, Franklin. It wouldn't surprise me at all. I thought it was
Kings County. It would not surprise me at all if it was not.
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, let us ask the witness to answer "Yes"
or "No" to these questions.
Mr, Franklin. I am answering m my way. I am trying to answer
you in the way you are asking me the questions.
146 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, I am going to object to the witness
doing this, and I am going to insist that we have
Mr. Franklin. Mr. Chairman
The Chairman. Just a minute
Mr. Rogers. Questions answered directly, rather than evasive an-
swers.
The Chairman. Mr. Rogers, the Chair feels pursuing the course
about the man's court record and the background with the information
he has already given certainly does not lead to the pertinency of this
investigation here. He has properly identified himself, both to his
present name and the court proceedings which authorized it. I just
hope the gentleman will proceed with his questioning on the perti-
nency of the investigation itself.
Mr. Rogers. If tlie Chair please, I am going to the credibility of
this witness. I think it is fairly important in these hearings. He has
testified that 5 or 6 years ago, he can't even remember the county in
which he lived, and yet he has testified to actual facts that took place
2 or 3 years ago.
The Chairman. I think the witness testified to the fact that he was
not sure what county the court- was in.
Mr. Rogers. I will ask him again. Wliat county were you living
in then ?
Mr. Franklin. I think it was Kings County.
Mr. Rogers. You think it was Kings County ?
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
Mr. Rogers. Did you go to the courthouse ?
Mr. Franklin. No, I didn't. It was done by a lawyer.
Mr. Rogers. Who was your lawyer ?
Mr. FrxVnklin. My lawyer was the same gentleman I talked about^
Edwin M. Slote.
Mr. Rogers. Pie is the man that told you to leave the country ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. He is the same man that got your name changed for
you?
Mr. Franklin. That is right. He was my lawyer.
Mr. Rogers. How long has he represented you ?
Mr. Franklin. About 6 or 7 years, something like that.
Mr. Rogers. He is still practicing law in New York ?
Mr. Franklin. I am assuming that. I don't know.
Mr. Rogers. How long since he has represented you ?
Mr. Franklin. Since mv appearance before the grand jury in New
York City.
Mr. RoG^.RS. Since your appearance before the grand jury in New
York City ?
Mr. Franklin. Did you ask me how long he has not ?
Mr. Rogers. How long has he represented you ?
Mr. Franklin. Up until my appearance before the grand jury. He
represented me legally. That was about 6 or 7 years.
Mr. Rogers. About 6 or 7 years ago ?
Mr. Franklin. I don't think you understand me.
Mr. Rogers. No, I sure don't, because you remember one thing 6 or
7 years ago and you can't remember anything else.
Mr. Franklin. That is your interpretation.
Mr. Rogers. When did he stop representing you ?
(
INVESTIGATION OP TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 147
Mr. Franklin. Would you repeat the question, please?
Mr. Rogers. AA^ien did he stop representing you ^
Mr. Franklin. I answered that question originally.
Mr. Rogers. A^Hien did he ?
Mr. Franklin. I said since my appearance before the grand jury
in New York City.
Mr. Rogers. When was that ?
Mr. Franklin. Several montlis ago, I don't know.
Mr. Rogers. Several months ago.
Mr. Franklin. You have the records. You have read those records.
You know exactly much better than I do.
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, the witness is undertaking to talk
aromid in a circle about these tilings.
Mr. Franklin. Mr. Chairman, may I object to the manner in which
I am being questioned !
The Chairman. Do you remember when you testified before the
grand jury?
Mr. Franklin. No ; I don't remember the date.
The Chairman. It was within the last few months ?
Mr. Franklin. Something like that.
The Chairman. It was following that that he ceased representing
you?
Mr. Franklin. Yes. Obviously since I named him before the grand
jury, as I did here, there was no longer any representation.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Rogers. Was it in 1959 or 1958 that you testified before the
grand juiy?
Mr. Franklin. I think it was this year, 1959.
Mr. Rogers. This year, in 1959 ?
Mr, Franklin. I think so.
Mr. Rogers. Was that the only time you testified before the grand
jury ?
Mr. Franklin. That is the only time.
Mr. Rogers. You had meetings, you said, with NBC ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers, At the time you had those meetings with NBC, were
you working for NBC ?
Mr, Franklin. No, sir,
Mr. Rogers. Who were you working for ?
Mr. Franklin. Barry & Enright.
Mr. Rogers. Barrv & Enright. Barry & Enright sold this business
to NBC; didn't they?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers. Did you work for NBC after NBC bought the thing?
Mr. Franklin. Yes. Our checks cleared from NBC then.
Mr. Rogers. Wliatisthat?
Mr. Franklin. Yes ; the checks came from NBC.
Mr. Rogers. The checks came from NBC. So you knew you were
working for NBC : didn't you ?
^Ir. Franklin. Actually it was a — as far as I was concerned, I was
still working for Barry & Enright.
Mr. Rogers. I am not talking about as far as you were concerned
now. I think we ought to get a little of the legal side of this thing.
148 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Franklin. I think I might be a little more difficult here than
I should be. Maybe I can clarify it.
Mr. Rogers. Did you discuss a price with NBC for this show ?
Mr. Franklin. No, sir. That is why I say teclinically I was still
working for Barry & Enright.
Mr. Rogers. Were you getting $35,000 a year ?
Mr. Franklin. No, $25,000 a year plus bonuses.
Mr. Rogers. You said a minute ago you were getting $35,000 a year
from NBC.
Mr. Franklin. No, I did not. I did not say that, Mr. Rogers. You
did not hear me correctly.
Mr. Rogers. You said a moment ago that NBC was one of your big-
gest clients, didn't j^ou ?
Mr. Franklin. No, I didn't say that. I didn't say that.
Mr. Rogers. You said Barry & Enright ?
Mr. Franklin. I said Barry & Enright.
Mr. Rogers. But the checks came from NBC after what time ?
Mr. Franklin. After the announcement about taking over control
of the Barry & Enright programs.
Mr. Rogers. After the announcement that they had taken over
Barry & Enright, did you Icnow they had sold to NBC ?
Mr. Franklin. Certainly I did.
Mr. Rogers. Was that before or after you were dodging this
subpena ?
Mr. Franklin. That was a long time before that.
Mr. Rogers. A long time before it. How did you dodge the
subpena ?
Mr. Franklin. I just was not where they expected me to be.
Mr. Rogers. Did you leave New York ?
Mr. Franklin. I started drinking in different saloons.
Mr. Rogers. You started what ? What did you say ?
Mr. Franklin. I didn't come to the offices much.
Mr. Rogers. I know. "\'\niat did you say in answer to the question ?
Mr. Franklin. I was being facetious, because you have provoked
me enough for me to feel that way.
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, I am going to ask the reporter to read
that if he has it in his notes, because this is not a facetious hearing and
I think we ought to get the facts.
Mr. Franklin. I would still like to raise an objection to the kind
of questioning that I am receiving.
The Chairman. Read the reply back.
( Record read by the reporter. )
Mr, Rogers. Mr. Franklin, let me ask you this: How long did you
get your checks from NBC ?
Mr. Franklin. Up until my appearance before the grand jury in
New York.
Mr. Rogers. Up until your appearance before the grand jurv in New
York?
Mr. Franklin. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. And the shows were going on all the time ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers. Had any of these fraudulent practices that you have
testified about taken place after you started receiving checks from
NBC?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 149
Mr. Franklin. As far as I know, they were either going on or not
going on all along. I had no information.
Mr. Rogers. There never was any change in the general format of
the program ?
Mr. Franklin. Oh, no. I didn't say anything like that at all. I
don't know anytliing about it.
Mr. Rogers. You said as far as you know. I am trying to help you.
Mr. Franklin. I don't know anything about the program. I never
watch it, except for the opening program, and the one in which Stem-
pel — I tried to tell you that, but you went off on the wrong tangent.
I never watched the program. I had contempt for quiz programs.
Mr. Rogers. You had contempt for them ?
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
Mr. Rogers. Did you have contempt for the products they adver-
tised, too ?
Mr. Franklin. I don't think that is pertinent to the testimony.
Mr. Rogers. Did you or not?
You were getting money from advertising people and selling the
American public.
Mr. Franklin. Are you referring to the sponsor of the program ?
I never tasted the product.
Mr. Rogers. You never tasted the product? You do not have to
testify about that.
Mr. Franklin. I never watched the program or tasted the product.
Mr. Rogers. When was it that the NBC checks started coming?
Mr. Franklin. When they had announced the fact that they were
taking over the control of the program.
Mr. Rogers. How long was that before you went before the grand
jury?
Mr. Franklin. A month. Some months. -i, ■
Mr. Rogers. Several months ?
Mr. Franklin. Several months is pretty good.
Mr. Rogers. But as soon as you went before the gi-and jury, those
checks stopped ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers. Have you represented NBC since that time ?
Mr. Franklin. That is why I said I felt I never represented NBC
on account of the checks had to be stopped. Naturally, the order had
to be given by Barry & Enright. You can figure it out for yourself,
Mr. Rogers.
Mr. Rogers. I will figure it out for myself.
You have not worked for NBC or Barry & Enright since you went
to the grand jury ?
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
Mr. Rogers. That is all.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Franklin, I think probably in view of this
question it should be cleared up.
You answered a question for me a moment ago in which you said
that NBC was not now and never had been one of your clients.
Mr. Franklin. That is right. As far as I am concerned, it is
almost so except for the technicality of their taking over control.
Actually, it was just Barry & Enright who were pushed out of the
picture. But I think their own production crews continued to f unc-
150 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
tion under NBC directly rather than reporting to Barry or Enright.
I assume this because I went along with the situation. Nothing ever
changes as far as our own participation went. We received our
check every week, except this time we got it through NBC, so to
speak. Actually, nothing changed.
The Chairman. But you considered yourself as representing Barry
& Enright all along?
Mr. Franklin. That is right. All along. All along until the day
they were cut off — mitil we were cut off the payroll, I always consid-
ered myself so.
The Chairman. Mr. Flynt.
Mr. Flynt. Along that same line, did you consider yourself to be
employed by the company that mailed you your periodical check?
Mr. Franklin. As I say, I don't think anything changed. I don't
think we received an NBC check. I think we still received the check
from the production's company or the production's services.
Mr. Davis would be a better man to ask that question of because he
handled the checks. I don't think I ever looked at a check.
Mr. Flynt. When did NBC buy "Twenty-one" ?
Mr. Franklin. Again, I am a little hazy on the dates.
Mr. Flynt. Give it to us as nearly as you can.
Mr. Franklin. I would say about a year and a half ago or there-
abouts.
Mr. Flynt. I didn't understand you.
A 3'^ear and a half ago or a year and a half before the show went
off the air ?
Mr. Franklin. No, no ; not that long. I would say about several
months before it went off the air.
Mr. Flynt. By that, 7 or 8 months?
Mr. Franklin. Perhaps.
I am the wrong man to ask that question. I can't give you an
honest answer ; I don't know.
Mr. Flynt. You were public relations agent or public relations
counsel for a program called "Twenty-one" ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flynt. And for the corporation under its corporate name
which owned it?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flynt. After NBC bought it, you knew that NBC had bought
it?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flynt. Did anybody from National Broadcasting Co., or any
of its affiliates ever ask you if this was a bona fide program or fraud ?
Mr. Franklin. No, sir.
Mr. Flynt. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Devine?
Mr. Devine. Just one question, Mr. Franklin.
To use your own words, I think you said you had a vague detached
affection for Herb Stempel.
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Devine. Did you believe him when he told you that the fix was
on?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir ; I did.
Mr. Devine. Did you have any reason to doubt him ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 151
Mr. Franklin. Oh, I had lots of reason to doubt him, but not that
statement.
Mr. Devine. Are you convinced as of today while you are sitting
here that he was telling you the truth ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Devine. Thank you.
The Chairman. Mr. Moss.
Mr. Moss. Mr. Franklin, did you at any time have any agreement
with NBC?
Mr. Franklin. No, sir.
Mr. Moss. You had an agreement with Barry & Enright, your cor-
porate name, whatever it was ?
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
Mr. Moss. Did NBC acquire just "Twenty-one" or did they acquire
Barry & Enright Productions ?
Mr. Franklin. I think it was a sale of several programs. I don't
know which they included at the time.
You must understand that although I functioned for Barry & En-
right on a very personal level over a period of many years, that when
it came down to the essentials of business, for instance, the client rarely
tells you the truth. When it comes down to the dollars and cents.
For instance, may I clarify that?
Mr. Moss. Yes.
Mr. Franklin. For instance, we were told then in the release
of the publicity that the sale was for the sum of $4 million. Subse-
quently it has been proved that it was not for $4 million. But we were
asked to release that figure. I don't know what the exact figure is.
So I would have to guess about details like that. That is the thing
I was trying to explain to Mr. Rogers, that I was not an inside member
of the situation ; not on a business level.
Mr. Moss. You continued then to regard yourself as in no way
having any change of status in connection with your client?
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
I had been doing business with them for many years before they
ever committed such a ridiculous action.
Mr. Moss. You indicated that you had conferences with Mr. Slote
and Mr. Enright ?
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
Mr. Moss. When your possible appearance either at the district
attorney's office or before a grand jury was discussed ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. You were advised to do one of two things : either not to
tell the truth or to leaA'e the country ?
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
Mr. Moss. Were any inducements offered to you if you agreed to
leave the country ?
Mr. Franklin. No. That never became a part of the problem.
Mr. Moss. In the course of the threatening and the haranguing
that you have described, there were no inducements offered to you ?
Mr, Franklin. No, sir.
Let me try to explain.
As I said before, I had known Jack Barry and Dan Enright for
many years. They had always been very decent people up until this
situation with the "Twenty-one"' show. They always behaved in a
152 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
very open and aboveboard manner. Dan Enright was one of the nicest
people I ever met before he got greedy enough to enter into such an
unholy alliance.
Jack Barry was a lot simpler. I knew J ack very well.
I would describe Jack as a kindergarten egomaniac. He suffers the
same as most people do who like to appear on television and be recog-
nized on the streets.
Dan Enright was a different kind of man. I considered Dan as a
superior person in those days. He was extremely well educated and
conversant with many things we liked to discuss. I thought it was a
shame he had gone so far.
Mr. Moss. What specifically does this haA^e to do with the confer-
ence?
Mr. Franklin. I wanted to explain, while I might have been
shocked at the action, I continued to function for these people, just as
if, for instance, you find a lifelong friend who has gotten in trouble.
You don't run away. You take him a little more seriously than the
situation calls for.
Mr. Moss. No inducements were offered to you to leave the coun-
try?
Mr. Franklin. No.
Mr. Moss. Were you told that if you appeared you would immedi-
ately be dropped from your role as public relations representative of
the Barry & Enright operation ?
Mr. Franklin. Nobody said that and nobody had to. It was
pretty obvious to me. I had been around a little bit.
Mr. INIoss. What manner of threats were used, then ?
Mr. Franklin. There was a pretty serious threat involved in tell-
ing me if I were to go in and tell the truth I would be convicted of
perjury because everybody else would lie. I considered that pretty
serious.
Mr. Moss. Was that the only threat ?
Mr. Franklin. That is enough.
Mr. Moss. You said threats.
Mr. Franklin. Yes. It was in the nature of threats. They were
all pertinent to that.
Mr. Moss. In the meetings with NBC, you testified, I believe, that
they did not directly inquire as to whether the charges made by Mr.
Stempel were true or false.
Mr. Franklin. I wouldn't be in a position to know. I could
only tell you
Mr. Moss. I am only asking you of those meetings where you were
actually present. I am not interested in anything that might be hear-
say. I am interested only in your own personal knowledge from the
meetings you attended.
Mr. Franklin. In the meetings that I attended they never asked
that question of me.
Mr. Moss. Was there then only a concern with overcoming unfavor-
able publicity ?
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
Mr. Moss. Or perhaps impeaching to a degree the statements of
Mr. Stempel ?
Mr. Franklin. That is right.
ESrVE'S'TlGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 153
Mr. Moss. Did they discuss means of dealing with Mr. Stempel to
perhaps sell him as an unstable or unreliable person ?
Mr. Franklin. Well, nobody had to go that far because as the
New York Post determined quite on its own, they considered Herb
Stempel's strange testimony true enough except that he was much
too unstable for them to go ahead and publish it. Their own law-
yers kept them from publishing it.
Mr. Moss. They wanted some corroboration ; is that it ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes. From another source.
Mr. Moss. Did they ever ask you if the charges were true, to your
knowledge?
Mr. Franklin. No. Mr. Sand did not ask me that question any
more than I would have asked him not to publish the story. We were
friends. I wouldn't have insulted his intelligence nor would he have
asked me that question.
Mr. Moss. NBC never asked you that question ?
Mr. Franklin. No, sir.
Mr. Moss. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Springer?
Mr. Springer. Mr. Franklin, you will recall the line of my ques-
tioning with reference to whether or not NBC, on its own, made any
investigation to determine the truth of Mr. Stempel's statements.
Was it your feeling during those two conferences with NBC that
NBC was led to believe by Enright that what Mr. Stempel said was
not true ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes. ■
Mr. Springer. Did he say that in a positive statement ?
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir. •
Mr. Springer. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Very briefly, Mr. Franklin, would you describe
what is the function or responsibility of a public-relations position as
you have with, say, a company like Barry & Enright ?
Mr. Franklin. It varies as naturally the needs for my services
vary.
For instance, when we went to work for Barry & Enright originally,
they were probably the smallest account we had at the time. Jack
Barry wanted personal publicity. Dan Enright wanted public rela-
tions on a higher level — company, corporate publicity. W^e had to
do both.
As they spiraled upward in their climb to success, our function
changed. In this case, for instance, when it came to Enright & Barry
getting into trouble, we had to function in a sense as a criminal lawyer
would function. We had to defend a client.
The Chairman. In other words, your responsibility was not pro-
motional in the sense of whatever the work was, but it was to assist
them with their dealings with other people.
Mr. Franklin. Sometimes you had some emotional problems. It
was part of public relations.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Mr. Fltnt. Mr. Franklin, who was present at these conferences
where Mr. Slote was tlireatening you ?
Mr. Franklin. There was Al Davis and myself. There was Slote.
He had a young assistant attorney at the time. I forget his name
now. He was there on two occasions.
154 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Flynt. Was Mr. Barry present at any of them ?
Mr. Franklin. No.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Enright?
Mr. Franklin. No.
Mr. Flynt. Anybody from NBC ?
Mr. Franklin. No.
Mr. Flynt. Who did you talk to representing NBC ?
Mr. Franklin. The only discussions I had were with Kenneth
Bilby and Tom Ervin.
Mr. Flynt. What position did they hold ?
Mr. Franklin. Ken Bilby is head of corporate public relations, I
would suspect. Public relations on the highest level.
Mr. Flynt. How do you spell that ? B-i-1-b-e-e ?
Mr. Franklin. B-i-1-b-y, I think.
Mr. Flynt. Did Mr. Bilby ever ask you if "Twenty-one" was a
bona fide program and a contest or whether it was a hoax or fraud?
Mr. Franklin. He never asked me that question.
Mr. Flynt. If he had asked you, what would you have told him ?
Mr. Franklin. I would have skirted the issue.
Mr. Flynt. You would not have told him ?
Mr. Franklin. I would not have told him.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I have one or two questions, Mr. Franklin.
Mr. Franklin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. To fix these conversations, the date of the conversa-
tions that you had with representatives of NBC is it your recollec-
tion that they were all prior to May 1957 ?
Mr. Franklin. No ; I could not.
Mr. Lishman. Were they after May 1957 ?
Mr. Franklin. All of these discussions?
Mr. Lishman. Yes.
Mr. Franklin. I would not know.
Mr. Lishman. The late summer of 1957.
Mr. Franklin. Possibly. I wouldn't know. There were so many.
There was such a quick succession of things happening. As I say, I
was involved in a private project of my own.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Davis testified that these conversations occurred
in the late summer and fall.
Mr. Franklin. Then that is probably so. Mr. Davis has a way
with dates and figures.
Mr. Lishman. I want the record to show that Mr. Franklin on Jan-
uary 8, 1959, appeared before the New York County Grand Jury, and
fully and completely testified to the satisfaction apparently of the
district attorney, and his testimony is contained in 62 pages of the
minutes of that grand jury, and apparently he gave full and complete
and truthful answers at that time.
Mr. Franklin. Thank you.
The Chairman. Is that all ?
Mr. Lishman. Yes.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Franklin, for your
appearance before the committee.
Mr. Franklin. Thank you.
Tlie Chairman. The committee will recess for 5 minutes.
(Brief recess.)
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 155
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Kletter, do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this
committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Kletter. I do, sir.
The Chairman. Will you state your full name, please, sir?
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD KLETTER
Mr. Klet'iter. Edward Kletter.
The Chairman. Your address ^
Mr. Kletter. 67-71 Yellowstone Boulevard, Forest Hills, Long
Island.
The Chairman. What is your business or profession ?
Mr. Kletter. I am vice president and director of advertising of
Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
The Chairman. You have counsel accompanying you here to ad-
vise you. May we have your counsel identified for the record?
Mr. Schultz. Henry A. Schultz, 400 Park Avenue, New York.
The CiL\iRMAN. Mr. Lishman, you may proceed.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Kletter, Pharmaceuticals, Inc., at one time em-
ployed Barry & Enright, did they not ?
Mr. Kletter. Not as direct employees.
Mr. Lishman. They entered into an agreement with them concern-
ing the production of the television quiz show, "Twenty-one"?
IVIr. Kletit:r. That is correx^t.
Mr. Lishman. What was the date of that ?
Mr. Kleiter. The original agreement- — may I refer to my notes?
Mr. Lishman. Yes ; you may refer to anything you wish.
Mr. Kletter. The original agreement w^as entered into May 28,
1956.
Mr. Lishman. At that time what was your position ?
Mr. Kletter. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Lishman. At that time what was your position ?
Mr. Kletter. The opposition ?
Mr. Lishman. Your position.
Mr. Kletter. Oh, I am sorry. I was president of Edward Kletter
Associates, an advertising agency.
Mr. Lishman. Were you connected with Parkson ?
Mr. Kletter. Parkson was later formed.
Mr. Lishman. What position did you hold with Parkson?
Mr. Kletter. I was also president of Parkson Advertising.
Mr. Lishman. What was Parkson 's business ?
Mr. Kletter. Advertising agency.
Mr. Lishman. Did it act on behalf of Pharmaceuticals, Inc. ?
Mr, Kletter. Yes ; it did.
^ Mr. Lishman. Was Parkson owned and controlled by Pharmaceu-
bicals. Inc. ?
Mr. Kletter. It was owned and controlled by certain individuals
of Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
Mr. Lishman. Who in turn controlled Pharmaceuticals ?
Mr. Kletter. Beg pardon?
Mr. Lishman. Who in turn controlled Pharmaceuticals, Inc. ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
156 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LisHMAN. When did you first see a kinescopic showing of
"Twenty-one" ?
Mr. Kletter. I would say about March of 1956.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Where did you see that ?
Mr. Kletter. I first saw it in California.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Then did you approach Barry & Enright or did
they approacli you ?
Mr. Kletter. No ; they approached us.
Mr. LisHMAN. What did they ask ?
Mr. Kletter. They wanted to know whether we would be interested
in sponsoring the program.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you eventually enter into this arrangement to
sponsor the program ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What were the arrangements you had with Barry &.
Enright respecting the sponsorship, financial arrangements?
Mr. Kletter. The financial arrangements ?
Mr. LiSHMAN. Yes.
Mr. Kletter. The arrangements were that we were to pay over a
5-year period in a graduating scale beginning, I believe, with $15,000
per program, and graduating up to $18,500 per program for the pro-
duction elements of the program, plus $10,000 per week for prize
money.
Mr. LisHMAN. What happened to the prize money if less was won
in any week than the $10,000 ?
Mr. Kletter. The arrangements were under the first agreement
that was drawn that at the conclusion of the 26-week period an ac-
counting was to be made and any moneys accumulated by Barry &
Enright not paid out to contestants would have been refunded to
Pharmaceuticals, and subsequently every 13 weeks thereafter.
Mr. LiSHMAN. So the sponsor under this arrangement had a direct
financial interest in the outcome of each week's program ?
Mr. Kletter. So to speak, yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. For how long a period did Pharmaceuticals sponsor
this program?
Mr. Kletter. From October 1956 to, I believe, October 1958. I
can give you the exact dates, if you wish.
Mr. LiSHMAN. That is enough. Did there come a time during this
period when your attention was called to the fact that certain con-
testants desired an advance ?
Mr. Kletter. There were two such occasions.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you recall those occasions?
Mr. Kletter. Yes. I recall an occasion of Mr. Van Doren, and an
occasion of, I believe, Mrs. Nearing. I am not sure now.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In connection with the advance of $5,000 to Mr.
Van Doren, who proposed making that advance to you ?
Mr. Kletter. Actually it was not made to us as a request for ap-
proval or disapproval, because it really did not concern our arrange-
ment. I think Barry & Enright called one day and merely mentioned
to me that Van Doren — it was before Christmas and he had accu-
mulated $100,000, then — or more — requested that he wanted to buy
some gifts for his family and what not, and would like to get an
advance of $5,000. Had I any objections? Since it didn't affect our
budget in any way, I saw no reason why we should have any objections.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 157
Mr. LisHMAN. Wasn't it theoretically possible at tliat time that
Mr. Van Doren might have lost all of his prize winnings ?
Mr. Kletter. Not likely, but theoretically it could have happened.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You voiced no objection to the giving of this ad-
vance to Mr. Van Doren at that time ?
Mr. Kletter. No ; because it would not have affected our financial
payment to Barry & Enright, because if Mr. Van Doren had lost all
)f his winnings and those $5,000 were paid to him, those $5,000 would
tiave been paid to him through Barry & Enright and not by us,
Mr. LiSHMAN. Why did Mr. Enright consult you about getting
;his approval for this advance ?
Mr. Kletter. Why did he ?
Mr. LiSHMAN. Yes.
Mr. Kletter. I presume to get our approval in the event he may
lave gotten to the point where that $5,000 would have been an out-of-
oocket cost to them, perhaps come to us and say, "Gee, we can't
ifford it, why don't you do something about it, or help us with it or
oay half of it, or what it may be." I don't know the reasons.
Mr. Ltshman. Mr. Kletter, did you closely follow the ratings
;hat were given to this program, "Twenty-One" ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes ; we do on all shows.
Mr. LiSHMAN. At the time that this advance was made, of $5,000,
:o Mr. Van Doren on December 19, 1956, do you recall what ratings
were for the ]:>rogram ?
Mr. Kletter. I can't recall the exact percentage ratings, but I can
;ell you that they were very low.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Very low?
Mv. Kletter. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAX. At any time in your conversation with Mr. Enright
Dr representatives of Barry & Enright, did you discuss the con-
iestants that Pharmaceuticals would like to hove continued on the
show, because of their pulling appeal to the public ?
Mr. Kletter. Never.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you ever have conversations with Enright, let
us say, at lunch, at which you would indicate to him, so-and-so is doing
v^ery well. I certainly hope he continues on the program ?
Mr. Kletter. Oh. yes. I, the same as 40 million other Americans.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You would make the statement at that time?
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you ever at such a meeting say to Mr. Enright,
Well, I certainly hope that so-and-so won't be on that program too
[ong?
Mr. Kletter. Never. '" "
Mr. LiSHMAN. The date of the advance to Mr. Van Doren. as I will
show you from a check dated December 19, 1956. made to his order
and charged to advance on prize money, I would like to have you look
iit, so you Taaj refresh your recollection in connection with your
answer that at that time he had already won almost $100,000.
(Document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Kletter. I am sorry, sir. I do not quite get the point.
Mr. LiSHMAN. On December 19, 1956, had Mr. Van Doren then
reached the $100,000 mark?
Mr. Kletter. I really don't know.
52294— 60— pt. 1 11
158 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did Mr. Enright also approach you and inquire
whether you would approve the giving of an advance to Mrs. Nearing,
a contestant on "Twenty-one" ?
Mr. Kletter. I think so. I am not quite as clear about that as I am
about Mr. Van Doren. But I do recall some discussions about Mrs.
Nearing.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you state to Mr. Enright that you would have
no objection to the giving of such an advance to Mrs. Nearing?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct, because we would have no objections
to any advances to any contestants that they wished to give advances
to.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Again, do you know why Mr, Enright should come to
you and request your approval before the making of such an advance?
Mr. Kletter. Only perhaps to cover himself for future liability.
Mr. LiSHMAN. To refresh your recollection, I am advised that Mr.
Van Doren became the champion on December 5. So the date of
that check is December 19. In that interim he certainly could not
have won $100,000.
Mr. Kletter. If that is the record, then you are quite light.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did there also come a time when Mr, Enright came
to you and asked your approval if he could make an advance totaling
$18,500 to the contestant Stempel ?
Mr, Kletter. No, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN, Did you ever discuss the making of that advance to
Mr. Stempel with Mr. Enright ?
Mr, Kletter. To the best of my recollection in the Stempel matter,
I believe the following to be the fact and I am not absolutely sure
about this.
Mr. LiSHMAN, Mr. Kletter, in order to save time and to refresh your
recollection, I will hand you the pages of your testimony before the
grand jury and see if it refreshes your recollection.
(Document handed to the witness.)
Mr. Kletter. Yes, That is just about what I was going to say to
you. That I am not quite sure about the exact amounts or the dis-
cussions. I believe that is the testimony you showed me.
But I do recall that there was some discussion of advances to
Stempel, The amounts I don't believe were discussed. As I recall,
the reason for the advance was that Mr, Stempel came to Enright
the day of the program and said, I will refuse to go on unless you first
advance me X dollars, whatever they be. He said, I want to do
it. I said again. That is up to you fellows. If you want to do it we
have no objections,
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you know at the time when these discussions
were had as to the advances that each of the contestants involved
could have lost all their winnings?
Mr. Kletter. Oh, yes; ver}'- well. Again, I point out to you, sir,
that this in no Avay could affect any costs or any moneys that we paid
to Barry & Enright.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Is it correct that the only things you were interested
in was the amount that was won on the show and not the actual
amount of money that was paid over to a contestant by Barry &
Enrijrht?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 159
Mr. KLEn^R. That is correct. May I explain that so that perhaps
the committee will be clear on this point because I was asked the
same thing on the grand jury and I would like to say this.
When we purchased this program for onr sponsorship, for all
practical purposes we never associated prize moneys as against other
component costs of the program. As far as we were concerned for
our advertising budget purposes, the $25,000 was the sum that we
were paying for the program and were willing to pay for the program,
and we never associated the two as two separate items in our own
bookkeeping nor in our own budgeting.
We were sure and guaranteed that never could it exceed this $25,000.
This was our onlv interest.
Mr. LiSHMAN." Mr. Kletter, isn't it a fact that if less than $10,000
in prize money was paid out in any week you were entitled to get
the difference back ?
Mr. Klet^icr. Not in any week. Over a period of time.
Mr, LiSHMAN. Over a period of time ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. But in order to ascertain how much you would be
entitled to get back you woidd certainly have to keep track of what
went on, would you not ?
Mr. Kletter. Correct, and track was kept. Again, I repeat that
we had never intended, nor have our budgets been so set, anticipating
refunds.
Mr. LiSHMAN. But you had an interest in every situation in which
less than $10,000 prize money was paid out, did you not?
Mr. Kletter. Yes; of course, as normal business practice you
normally would have records and interests.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did there come a time when the contestant Jackman,
wdio has been a witness here, stated publiclv that he had won a prize
of $24,500, and, in fact, received from Barry & Enright only $15,000?
Mr. Kletter. I never had any knowledge of that. I personally had
no knowledge of that until it was brought up as a point of question,
I believe, by Mr. Stone.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Didn't your company keep track of the prize money ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes, but we had no knowledge of what was paid to
the contestant, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In this connection
Mr. Kletter. We did not pay directly to contestants their winnings.
We paid Barry & Enright each week $25,000, not in two separate
payments for })rizes and program, but in one lump sum. They in
turn, paid the contestants whatever money they won on the program.
Mr. LiSHMAN. How much did Barry & Enright account back to
you in connection with Jackman as payment for his prize money ?
Mr. Kletter. I would have to check my records. I do not recall.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Is it a fact that one contestant to your knowledge
was paid more than she won by Barry & Enright ?
Mr. Kletter. That, too, I didn't know until it came out in our
testimony or at the hearings that we held in the grand jury.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Is it a fact that Mrs. Nearing on one contest won
$5,500 ostensibly and she was actually paid, by Barry & Enright,
$10,000?
160 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Kletter. Tliis came to my attention later. I was not aware
of it at the time.
Mr. LiSHMAN". Did not, in every instance, Barry & Enriglit furnish
you with a report to show that you were not being overcharged ?
Mr. Kletter. Well, Mr. Lishman, I personally did not see reports
every week. These reports were kept and I got periodic reports
from our bookkeeping department showing the status of the prize
moneys as they were at a given time, either overages or under the
payments made to them. I didn't see weekly reports.
Mr. Lishman. If I may refresh your recollection, I would like to
read from your testimony.
Mr. Kletter. All right, sir.
Mr. Lishman. Before the grand jury :
Q. What we are trying to arrive at, Mr. Kletter, is this : We have already
established that in the case of the contestant Jackman, even though he won
$24,000 he only received $15,000 and there was a report that was furnished
you so that Barry & Enright did not overcharge you. — A. Correct.
Q. No question. — A. No. Had they, we would have certainly seen to it it
was not part of the budget.
Mr. Kletter. Would you mind reading that last part again?
Mr. Lishman. This is a question to you :
Q. We have already established in the case of the contestant .Jackman, even
though he won $24,000 he only received $15,000 and there was a report that was
furnished you so that Barry & Enright did not overcharge you. — A. Correct.
What does that mean ?
Mr. Kletter. That report you quoted from there, was the report
that was shown to me at that time during my testimony, a report that
I had not seen theretofore. I agreed that this was a correct report as
I would now if you showed it to me again.
Mr. Lishman. But that was the report made to your company ?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct. I personally had not seen it before.
I think that is what the statement really refers to.
Mr. Lishman. Did you make any inquiries as to why Jaclanan re-
ceived only $15,000 when he had actually been publicized as winning
$24,500?
Mr. Kletter. x\fter I found ou^t about this, Mr. Lishman, there
was no need of my making any inquiry because the te.stimony was
already in evidence. I heard the story as I heard it again today.
Mr. Lishman. When this report was originally furnished to your
company, did anybody in the company make any inquiries as to why
this happened?
Mr. Kletter. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. Lishman. Did they ask you ?
Mr. Kletter. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Lishman. Did anyone ever ask you about it ?
Mr. Kletter. To my best recollection, I don't recall it.
Mr. Lishman. Was it ever reported to the officials of the company?
Mr. Kletter. As an incident, as a particular incident, to my knowl-
edge, no. I think I might throw a little light, if I may, on this entire
question of the prize moneys.
At the conclusion of our last program in October of 1958, there was
some $75,000 more, or $75,000 awarded in greater amounts to con-
testants than Pharmaceuticals, Inc., paid to Barry & Enright or NBC.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 161
So yoii see that some of these theoretical questions really have no great
significance or no great meaning.
By themselves, they may seem important. But on the overall, they
are quite unimportant and for that reason we had paid no definite
and particular attention to each week's winnings.
Mr. LiSHMAx. Mr. Kletter, in the light of the accusations that have
been made that the program was fixed, the unusual situation of ad-
vances being made to contestants under conditions whereby each might
have lost aU that he had won, the knowledge of the sponsor uivites
certain real scrutiny.
Mr. Kletter. With this exception. I don't believe that advances
in themselves would indicate that the program was fixed in any way,
no more than if an employee would come to me and say, I would like
an advance on my salary. I need $10 more this week. Would you
advance it until I get paid at the end of the month. That is all it
meant to us at that time.
Mr. LisHMAN. At the begmning of your testimony, you said one of
the reasons why you gave no objection to the advance of $5,000 to Mr.
Van Doren was, apparently you believed, to the best of your memory,
that he was a winner to the tune of $100,000 and it did not seem likely
that he would not be a good man to repay.
Mr, Kletter. I was in error.
Mr. LisiiMAN. I have here now — and you can correct me if I am
wrong— a record which shows that at or about the time of this advance
of $5,000 Mr. Van Doren was a winner only to the tune of $20,000 and
he could have lost this, as we all know, in one game without any
trouble.
Mr. Kletter. If that is the record, I agree to it.
Mr. LisHMAN". Are you absolutely certain that you, as a sponsor,
did not know that there was some assurance that certain contestants
would be continued on the shows ?
Mr. Kletter. Assurances by whom ?
Mr. LisHMAN. By Barry & Enright. ,; .'
Mr. Kletter. None whatever. . -■ '
Mr. LiSHMAN. When did you first learn that in the show, "Twenty-
one," assistance had been given to contestants by Barry & Enright?
Mr. Kletter. The day I read it in the Journal- American, I believe,
the same as everyone else did.
Mr. LisHMAN. Aboutwhat was that date?
Mr. Kletter. I would say sometime in August of 1958. I was
shocked, I might say.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did anyone in your organization have any knowl-
edge of this, do you believe ?
Mr. Kletter. No, I do not believe so.
Mr. LisHMAN. How closely did you follow these programs?
Mr. Kletter, In what way, sir ?
Mr. LisH3iAN. In determining the quality appeal they were having
to the buying public ?
Mr. Kletter, Frankly, I was an enthusiast of the show and the
"$64,000 Question"" and the other quiz shows, as many millions of other
people were, and I watched them at home with as much enthusiasm,
admiration, and awe as anyone else may have done.
162 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
We personally did not in any way — that is, we, the sponsor or the
agency — have anything whatever to do with the prodnction of the
program itself. Our only concern was with the production of our
commercials on the program.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did your agreement with Barry & Enright provide
any control in Pharmaceuticals, Inc., over the contents of the
programs ?
Mr. Kletter. No. Only to the standard morals clauses and other
clauses that you find in these types of agreements.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did there come a time when you terminated your
arrangements with Barry & Enright ?
Mr. Kletter. When we teraiinated our arrangements ?
Mr. LiSHMAN. Yes.
Mr. Kletter. You mean the last time the program was canceled?
Mr. LiSHMAN. Yes, when you assigned the contract.
Mr. Kletter. Yes. Subsequently to our original agreement that
we spoke of earlier, we assigned our rights to the program to the Na-
tional Broadcasting Co. I believe that was in March of 1958.
Mr. LisHMAN. Was any consideration paid for that assignment?
Mr. Kletter. The consideration — there was a consideration — was
not really to the assignment as much as a continuation of a previous
arrangement that we had with NBC whereby they contributed, which
is not customary, to the cost of the program that we bought in certain
time periods. That was continued.
Mr. LisHMAN. I have concluded.
The Chairman. Mr. Mack, do you have any questions ?
Mr. Mack. Did you terminate your agreement immediately after
you read this in the Journal-American ?
Mr. Kletter. No, I think about several weeks later.
Mr. Mack. Did you consider that your agreement had been violated
by the other parties ?
Mr. Kletter. Beg pardon ?
Mr. Mack. Did you consider that your agreement had been violated
by this production?
Mr. Kletter. If the facts as carried in the press of the time, if they
were proven to be facts, we would have said yes, our agreement would
have been violated very definitely.
Mr. Mack. I understood you to say a few minutes ago that you as-
sumed that they were facts.
Mr. Kletter. No, no. As a matter of fact, when we
Mr. Mack. I want to withdraAV that. That is not exactly what you
said. What you said was that you were greatly disappointed when
you read this.
Mr. Kletter. More than disappointed. Shocked.
Mr. Mack. You were shocked ?
Mr. Kletter. Right.
Mr. Mack. I assume from that you thought that the contents of
the Journal-American article were factual ?
Mr. Kletter. No ; w^e did not believe that they were facts.
Mr. Mack. That is the point I am making.
Mr. Kletter. They were accusations. At that time we felt that
we had to get more information in order to prove that they were facts
before we would take any action.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 163
Mr. Mack. If I recall correctly you said that was the first time
that you knew.
Mr. Kletter. That is correct.
Mr. Mack. That this program was fixed ?
Mr. Kletter. That was the first inclination that we had that it
mig-ht be. We didn't know.
Mr. ]VL\CK. I misunderstood you, then.
Mr. Kletter. I am sorry.
Mr. Mack. I underetood that you said that this was the first time
that you knew that the program was fixed.
Mr. Kletter. Then I misphrased what I meant to say. The first
knowledge that we had that it might have been.
Mr. Mack. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Springer?
Mr. Springer. Mr. Kletter, you are vice president of Pharma-
ceuticals, Inc. ?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct.
Mr. Springer. Is that a pharmaceutical company or an advertising
company ?
Mr. Ivletter. A pharmaceutical company.
Mr. Springer. Is your position as vice president of that company
an administrative position of the pharmaceutical firm, or are you a
public relations or advertising person ?
Mr. Kletter. No. I am with the firm. I am in charge of advertis-
ing-
Mr. Springer. You are then vice president in charge of advertis-
ing ?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Springer. There is no intervening agency or corporation be-
tween Pharmaceuticals and Barry & Enright '^
Mr. Kletter. Yes, there is an advertising agency.
Mr. Springer. What is that advertising agency '?
Mr. Kletter. Parkson Advertising Agency, currently.
Mr. Springer. Is Parkson Advertising Agency a subsidiary of
Pharmaceuticals ?
Mr. Kletter. It is.
Mr. Springer. What position do you hold with that organization ?
Mr. Kletter, None.
Mr. Springer. Are you connected with it in any way ?
Mr, Kletter. No, sir. Only in a business way.
Mr, Springer. Was the Barry & Enright contract with Parkson
Co. or Pharmaceuticals, Inc. ?
Mr. Kletter. On behalf of Pharmaceuticals by Parkson. Orig-
inally, Kletter Associates, and later Parkson. But on behalf of its
client , Ph a rm a ceuticals.
Mr. Springer. Then all of the advertising of Pharmaceuticals,
Inc., in reality, is carried on by Parkson ; is that right?
Mr. Kletter. That is con-ect, sir. As well as some other accounts
that Parkson has.
Mr. Springer. Is that a separate corporation?
Mr. Kletter. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Springer. Who is president of that corporation ?
Mr. Kletter. Mr, Ted Bergman.
164 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Springer. Did he or Parkson Co. have part in the originating
of the contract between Pharmaceuticals and Barry & Enright?
Mr. Kletter. No, he did not at that time because he was not with j
the agency. j
Mr. Sprixger. This contract was executed by you; is that correct?!
Mr. Kletter. By me ; yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Kletter, was the budget under which Barry &j
Enright operated set up by Pharmaceuticals, Inc. ? j
Mr. Kletter. No.
]VIr. Springer. Wlio set up that budget ?
Mr. Kletter. The budget by which they operated ?
Mr. Springer. The budget by which the contract operated.
Mr. Kletter. Oh, yes. In other words, the amount of moneys paid i
to Barry & Enright.
Mr. Spencer. Is that true of all advertising contracts of Phar-
maceuticals, Inc. ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
Mr. Springer. This contract between Pharmaceuticals, Inc., and
Ban*y & Enright lasted for approximately 2 years, from October
1956, until October 1958 ; is that correct ?
Mr. Kletter. Theoretically a major portion of that with them, and
then the balance with the National Broadcasting Co.
Mr. Springer. Your contract called for $25,000 a week; is that
true?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct.
Mr. Springer. $100,000 a month, roughly, or $1.2 million a year.
Mr. Kletter. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Springer, How much in addition to that figure did you pay to
NBC for broadcasting this program?
Mr. Kletter. Then we paid NBC for time.
Mr. Springer. How much was that contract ?
Mr. Kletter. I would have to just guess.
Mr. Springer. Roughly.
Mr. Kletter. Roughly $45,000 or $50,000 a week.
Mr. Springer. In other words, this total contract would come to
approximately $3.5 million a year.
Mr. Kletter. If your mathematics is correct, and I assume it is, yes.
Mr. Springer. In dollars and cents, how large a corporation is
Pharmaceuticals, Inc. ?
Mr. Kletter. In volume, business done? |
Mr. Springer. First of all in dollars and cents; what is its capital?
Mr. Kletter. I don't know.
Mr. Springer. What volume of business in dollars and cents did it .
do each year?
Mr. Kletter. Approximately $25 million.
Mr. Springer. This means, then, that approximately a sixth of all
of its income was devoted to advertising over this 2-year period ? '
Mr. Kletter. More than that because we had other advertising
media that we used in addition to "Twenty-one."
Mr. Springer. Primarily, as I understand it. Pharmaceuticals
makes Geritol ; is that right ?
Mr. Kletter. No, not primarily. We make a number of products.
Mr. Springer. Would you name the products that you make?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 165
Mr. Kletter. Surely. Sominex, Williams' Aqua-Velva, Williams'
Electric Preshave Lotion, Williams' Shaving Cream, Kremel Hair
Tonic, Conte Shampoo, Zarmnin, and Devorex.
Mr. Springer. Those are your principal products?
Mr. Kletter. Those are our principal products.
Mr. Springer. On this program, you advertised chiefly Geritol,
Sominex, and Zarumin, am I right ?
Mr. Kletter. No. The films that you saw yesterday and today it
so happened had those products on, but we also had Williams' Aqua-
Velva Aftershaving Lotion, we had the Electric Preshave Lotion.
We had Williams' Shaving Cream on it. We had Sominex on it.
We changed over. Over the period of 2 years we may have had 10
products advertised.
Mr. Springer. On the programs that I saw, and that probably was
not over half a dozen, maybe eight, Geritol was the one advertised.
Could you tell me approximately the number of bottles of Geritol
that were being sold in October, 1956 ?
Mr. Kletter. I could not answer that.
Mr. Springer. As an advertising man, you have some idea whether
your sales went up or down in that 2-year period, don't you ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
Mr. Springer. Could you tell this committee what the boost in sales
was during that time if there was one 2
Mr. Kletter. All I can answer is that that period of time was a
development period for Geritol generally. We not only sponsored
program "Twenty-one," but at that time we also sponsored "To Tell
the Truth," the "Original Amateur Hour," the "Guy Lombardo
Show." As a matter of fact, those 2 years were really our years of
development.
, I frankly could not sit here and honestly tell you that "Twenty-
one" had any greater measure of success for Geritol than the "Guy
Lombardo Show." As a matter of fact, we have some records which
lead us to believe that Guy Lombardo did as much, if not more, for
Geritol than "Twenty-one."
Mr. Springer. JNIr. Kletter, during this 2-year period, for how
many weeks was "Twenty-one" the top program ?
Mr. Kletter. The top program ?
Mr. Springer. Yes.
Mr. Kletter. With us ?
]Mr. Springer. The top program on the air by ratings.
Mr. Kletter. It was never the top program. .1- Li
Mr. Springer. How far from the top was it ?
Mr. Kletter. To my knowledge, in the 2 years only 1 time did it
reach the top 10.
]\Ir. Springer. Only one time ?
Mr, Kleiter. One time.
Mr. Springer. Let me ask you this, to put it another way: For
how many weeks of that 104 weeks was it the top quiz show ?
Mr. Kletter. I don't think it ever was the top quiz show.
Mr. Springer. Are you positive of that ?
. Mr. Kletter. I am pretty certain.
Mr. Springer. On the Hooper ratings ?
Mr. Kletter. Not Hooper ; but Nielson. We don't use Hooper any
longer.
166 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Springer. What about TV Guide ?
Mr. Kletter. They don't have a rating service.
Mr. Springer. In TV Telequiz was it ever rated tops ?
Mr. Kletter. I am not familiar with that service at all.
Mr. Springer. Did "Twenty-one" win any awards during that 2-
year period ?
Mr. Kletter. What type of awards, sir ?
Mr. Springer. "Was it voted the best TV quiz show of the year?
Mr. Kletter. I think one time some magazine or something gave
it an award or something, but those are inconsequential. We pay no
stock to those things at all.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Kletter, would you supply the record of this
hearing with the sales of Geritol for the month of October 1958?
Can you do it by the month ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes ; we have it by months.
Mr. Springer. Would you also, then, give us the monthly sales
of Geritol for each one of those months that "Twenty-one'' was on
the air ?
Mr. Kletter. Surely.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Kletter, may I say without prolonging this hear-
ing, one of the purposes of this hearing is to determine whether or not
unfair trade practices were used by any company in boosting its sales.
We have reason to believe, with regard to another program, that un-
fair trade practices were directly responsible for it boosting sales.
This is an unethical practice in our opinion. When you first learned
of the charges that there was a fix on, so to speak, did you, or your
attorney or anybody for your company, make an investigation to deter-
mine whether or not the charges were true ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes. I would like to just add one other thought to
your last statement. We believe that overall the program "Twenty-
one" rather than boosting the sales of Geritol had an adverse affect
on the product because of what has subsequently happened.
Mr. Springer. Do you expect to show that by sales figures ?
Mr. Kletter. I think we j^robably could.
Mr. Springer. Are you going to attempt to show that by producing
the sales figures after the program "Twenty-one" went off the air?
Mr. Kletter. Yes, we can.
Mr. Springer. I am especially interested in knowing the figures
during the time that "Twenty-one" was on the air.
Mr. Kletter. I am sure we will have no objections to giving you
that.
Mr. Springer. Will you answer the second question, if you recall,
Mr. Kletter?
(Question read.)
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
Mr. Springer. Before you answer that, as a part of my original
question, would you also supjjly for the record of this hearing the
months of August and September 1956 as well as the month of Octo-
ber 1958 ?
Mr. Kletter. October 1956.
Mr. Springer. August and September of 1956 through October 1958.
If you also want to supply any others you are free to do that, too.
IN\'ESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
167
(The following figures were subsequently furnished by Mr, Klet-
ter:)
Geritol sales
Year and month Dollar
1956— Jauuary $1, 136
February 672
March 676
April 1, 192
May 70
June 701
July 736
August 1,408
September 745,
October 976
November 730
December 803,
-January 1, 675,
February 1, 007.
967,
1957-
March
April 1, 802,
May 1, 161,
June 740,
July 953,
August 1,851,
September 1, 055,
October 968,
November ^ 513,
December 883,
sales
,000
,000
,000
, 000
,000
,000
,000
000
000
,000
,000
000
000
000
000
000
000
000
000
000
000
000
000
000
Year and month Dollar sales
1958— January $1, 644, 000
February 812, 000
March 1, 215, 000
April 805, 000
May 1,449,000
June 792,000
Julv 776, 000
August 956,000
September 1, 745, 000
October 853, 000
November 609, 000
December 723, 000
1959— January 1, 136, 000
February 687, 000
March 841, 000
April 879, 000
May 1, 064, 000
June 717,000
July 628, 000
August 720, 000
September 1, 439, 000
Mr. Springer. May I ask you one other question : At the time that
the show was on the air, did you consider, on the basis of the sales
figures, that the sliow^ was a good $3i/^-million-per-year advertising
investment ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes ; we believed that.
Mr. Springer. Do you believe that today ?
Mr. Kletter. We are reluctant about that today.
Mr. Springer. Do you recall when the statement was issued by
NBC ? If not the exact month, do you recall that a statement was is-
sued to the efl'ect that they had made an investigation and had found
the fix charges to be baseless ? Is that right, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. LiSHMAN. August 1958.
Mr. Kletter. This is really following your question that you asked,
what did we do and we found out because that was in August 1958
after we read the papers.
Mr. Springer. Can you answer the question now ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes; I will answer. Immediately when we read the
reports in the newspaper we contacted NBC. We had a meeting with
NBC. Our position at the time was that until such time that we have
any facts to back up the newspaper stories that we would sit tight.
The reason for that, incidentally, is that we had dealt for many years
with Barry & Enright. We sponsored their show, "Life Begins at
80." ,
Mr. Springer. Is that an existing show ? I
Mr. Kletter. Not currently. I am going back in our relationship
with Barry & Enright and when it started. ^
Then we sponsored their show called "Juvenile Jury." Then we
sponsored a show of theirs called "Wisdom of the Ages," so our rela-
tion wdth the Barry & Enright organization or with these two men
specifically dates back to happy associations back to 1950 or 1951. We
168 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
were not ready to discard what we believed was honesty and genuine-
ness of these two people as we got to know them because of a newspaper
■story. Until such time as we had at least some specific or basic facts,
and if not at least facts, some indications that these might be facts,
we were not ready to throw these men out into the street, so to speak,
until we had some facts.
So our position at that time, as we told NBC is, we are going to sit
tight. We have complete and full confidence in the integrity of these
two gentlemen, and until such time as they are proven wrong we are
going to continue, even though we knew at the time that we were suf-
fering saleswise because, immediately after these newspaper stories
broke, the program's ratings dropped. Don't take this as statistical
fact, but by at least 50 percent. Yet we backed it up until such time
as we found that there was something to this.
So we went to NBC at the time and discussed the matter. Their
position was the same as ours. They, too, did not believe the rumors
and the stories. Until such time that they found them to be fac-
tual that they would do nothing of taking the program oil the air.
Mr. Springer. Your explanation is all right.
Now, I want to ask my question : What did you or your company
do toward making an investigation of Stempel's charges after they
were revealed in the newspaper?
Mr. Kletter. Of course, we never met Stempel nor did we ever
meet any of the contestants. We did bring Barry & Enright into
our offices and we asked about these accusations. They assured us
that there was nothing to this. This is merely a story of Stempel
who, in their words, was a madman, and there was nothing to it, the
investigation will prove it to be so, and we believed them.
Mr. Springer. Again to my question, I take it the inference is that
neither you or your company did anything toward investigating these
charges separately on your own ; is that correct?
Mr. Kletter. By going to contestants directly; no, sir.
Mr. Springer. When Snodgrass' story also appeared shortly there-
after, did you then make any investigation?
Mr. Kletter. Not directly with the contestant; no, sir.
Mr. Springer. In any of your conversations with NBC did they
indicate that they were making any separate investigation ?
Mr. Kletter. They said that they did make an investigation of
their own and found the accusations groundless.
Mr. Springer. That was their statement to you?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct.
Mr. Springer. They made an investigation of their own?
Mr. Kletter. That is right.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Chairman, that is all.
The Chairman. Mr. Rogers.
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Kletter, where were you born ?
Mr. Kletter. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Rogers. Where were you born ?
Mr. Kletter. I was born in Poland, sir.
Mr. Rogers. How long have you been in this country ?
Mr. Kletter. Thirty-nine years, sir.
Mr. Rogers. Was your name Kletter all the time?
Mr. Kletter. Yes, sir. I am proud of it.
I]Sr\^ESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 169
Mr. Rogers. Have yon ever operated a business under an assumed
name or under any other name ?
Mr. Kletter. No, sir. I like the name Kletter, sir.
Mr. Rogers. How long have you been with Pharmaceuticals?
Mr. Kletter. Since 1953.
Mr. Rogers. Wlio were you with prior to that time ?
Mr. Kletter. I was with the Whalen Drug Co. for 26 years. You
have some of their stores in Washington.
Mr. Rogers. "Wliere were you located then ?
]SIr. Kletter. I was practically all over the country for them but
based for a number of years in Los Angeles, some in Buffalo, Syra-
cuse, Washington, D.C.
Mr. Rogers. Were you in the advertising end of it ?
Mr. Kletter. No. I was in the supervisory operating end of it.
Mr. Rogers. That is, you were in a managerial position ? You had
to keep up with all these stores and how much busmess they were
doing and how it was operating?
IVIr. Kleiter. That is correct. I started scrubbing shelves but
finally worked up to that position after 26 years ; yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers. That is the American way to do it, all right. But you
did obtain a managerial position ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Kletter, you said you went to work for this group
in 1953 ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. Rogers. Were you offered this position because of your particu-
lar abilities that you displayed with Whalen Drug ?
Mr. Kletter. I hope so.
Mr. Rogers. You were looked upon as a good managerial executive,
w^ere you not ?
Mr. Kletter. I think so.
Mr. Rogers. In handling the Pharmaceuticals business, when did
you fii-st have your experiences with TV ?
Mr. Kletter. Mv experience with TV came prior to that. I started
in TV actually in 1949.
Mr. Rogers. Handling that part of the business for AVlialen ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
jSIr. Rogers. You continued that, of course, in this ?
Mr. KLETrER. Then I had 1 year with the Du Mont Television net-
work.
Mr. Rogers. With the Du Mont Television network ?
Mr. IvLET'rER. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. You were pretty well familiar with the way these pro-
grams were operated all the time and have been ever since you have
been connected with the Pharmaceuticals, Inc. ?
Mv. Kletter. Yes. I think I am quite familiar with television.
Mr. Rogers. Don't you people watch sales pretty closely ?
JMr. Kletter. Any corporation that doesn't, soon finds themselves
out of business.
Mr. Rogers. They have to know almost from day to da}', do they not,
Mr. Kletter?
Mv. Kletitr. At least from month to month.
Mr. Rogers. Do you keep that in the form of a graph that you watch
the little line go up or down as the sales go up or down ?
170 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Kletter. We surely do.
Mr. Rogers. You watch it pretty close, do you not ?
Mr. Klettek. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers. In this particular business were you keeping that on a
daily basis or weekly basis or how were you keeping it ?
Mr. Kletter. Monthly, sir.
Mr Rogers. Monthly ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. Did you not watch each week as to whether or not
these sales went up or down after these programs ?
Mr. Kletter. We watch our sales, as I mentioned, constantly. Not
particularly to any given program but in general as good business
practice would indicate.
Mr. Rogers. You could tell, could you not, whether or not a pro-
gram like "Twenty-one" was getting results for you?
Mr. Kletter. Of course, yes.
Mr. Rogers. If you could not do that, you w^ould not be paying
$3,500,000 a year for it?
Mr. Kletter. Incidentally, today in television that is pretty cheap.
Mr. Rogers. $3,500,000 a fellow would keep his hands on the books
pretty well.
Mr. Kletter, Yes, sir.
Mr Rogers. Especially when you are doing a $26 million business
a year. That is a sizable chunk out of it. Isn't it a fact that after
these programs that you would watch the sales for the next week
to see whether they went up or down to see what impact it had?
Mr. Kletter. No. We could never have that close a barometer
because — we don't make sales directly to consumers.
Mr, Rogers. I understand that.
Mr. Kletter. By the time we get a consumer reaction it may
take as much as 90 days before we would actually feel the reaction
to an advertising impact in our house sales.
Mr. Rogers. Then there would be no way you could tell, you mean,
from a TV quiz program whether or not you were getting results
until 90 days?
Mr. Kletter. Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, it is difficult to even
decide whether a TV program is productive before 90 days.
Mr. Rogers. It is what ? I did not get that.
Mr. Kletter. It is difficult to arrive at whether or not a television
program, or any advertising for that matter, is productive before 90
days. ;
Mr. Rogers. Did you talk to Mr. Enright or Mr. Barry every week !
about tlie program, '
Mr. Kletter. Not necessarily. Sometimes three or four times a i
week. Sometimes not for a month.
Mr, Rogers, Sometimes you did not talk to them for a month?
Mr, Kletter, That is right.
Mr, Rogers. Is that wdien you would voice your opinion as to
whether or not a certain contestant was a good man or a bad man ?
Mr. Kletter. The only time I ever voiced my opinion on it was
what I liked to see on the screen. If I liked somebody, like I like
Mr. Van Doren, I loved him.
Mr. Rogers. You were doing it from a personal standpoint ?
Mr. Kletter. That is riffht.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 171
Mr. EoTxERS. Rather than as a business executive ?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Rogers. You are telling the conmiittee that you were not watch-
ing it from that angle and that you had no desire to keep a man on
the program or a woman on the program or to get one taken off?
Mr. Kletter. Never, sir.
Mr. Rogers. You never made such a statement to Mr. Enright, Mr.
Freedman, or anyone else ?
Mr. Kletter. No, sir. I said this is a pretty good contestant, I hope
he doesn't quit on us, or something like that.
Mr. Rogers. Who is that?
Mr. Kletter. Any contestant.
Mr. Rogers. You mean you would just say that, you hope he doesn't
quit ?
Mr. Kletter. That is right.
Mr. Rogers. But you made no indication at all to them that you
thought they ought to get rid of him or to keep someone else?
Mr. Kletter. Mr. Rogers, both Mr. Barry and Mr. Enright knew
us very well. They knew the efficacy of Pharmaceuticals, Inc., and
knew that even such a remote suggestion would never come from us.
Mr. Rogers. That is one of the things that has worried me because
after you found out that there was some cloud of suspicion on this
program you made no effort to go to either of the people who were
complaining to find out from them. You took Barry & Enright's
word for it, as I understand it.
Mr. Kletter. I think you must realize this, that because someone
points a finger at someone and vSays he is a crook doesn't necessarily
mean that immediately people who have been associated together for
years immediately take that as gospel truth and say yes, he is a crook
and, therefore, I will have nothing to do with you because you have
dealt with him.
JMr. Rogers. I understand that. The things that I am thinking
about is this. Did your sales drop off after this revelation in the
papers?
Mr. Kletter. Not sales. Again I can't answer that factually be-
cause again I say it takes about 90 days to feel a sales impact, up or
down.
Mr. Rogers. Did this revelation have a bad impact on your sales in
the final analysis ?
]\Ir. Kletter. Yes ; we think it has.
Mr. Rogers. Did you drop the program after you found out it did
have a bad impact ?
Mr. Kletter. Not so much because of that. I think after we got
involved in it more and after we got all the stories and after we met
with Mr. Stone and the grand jury, then we began to smell that prob-
ably something — I believe we were mad. "We did not take this lying-
clown. We finally decided that there is something behind this and
we canceled forthwith and we would have done it 2 years ago if we
had found out that a Mr. Stempel was being coached even after the
third program. We would have forthwith canceled without any
question.
What amazes me, incidentally
Mr. Rogers. You did not get mad until the grand jury got into this
picture, did you?
172 I]S"VESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Kletter. The grand jury got into it immediately after the
newspaper stories broke, I believe.
Mr. Rogers. Was not your company suspect by the grand jury, too ?
Mr. Kletter. "Were they ?
Mr. EoGERS. Were they suspect ?
Mr. Ivletter. I don't know.
Mr. Rogers. Were you called before the grand jury?
Mr. Ejletter. We were not siibpenaed. We appeared before them.
Mr. Rogers. You were requested to appear ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. To tind out whether or not you had anything to do
with the program?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Rogers. You contended to them that you did not have and did
not know anything about it ?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Rogers. And made no effort at all to control who was on the
program or who was not ? You made no effort to find out who was
going to be on the program the next week or who was going to be
dropped ?
Mr. Kletter. Thereafter?
Mr. Rogers. Xo.
I\Ir. Kletter. From inception, never
Mr. Rogers. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman.
]\Ir. Fltxt. Did I miderstand you correctly that you said it was im-
portant to you whetlier the producer paid the contestant the same
amount the contestant was told on TV?
Mr. Kletter. I am sorry, I didn't quite hear that.
Mr. Flynt. When the counsel for the committee was asking you
questions, in response to one of them you made some statement to the
effect that you did not consider it important. I want to know if I got
that in contest and what you were saying Avas in effect : I did not con-
sider it important whether the producer paid the contestant the same
amount that the public was told on TV that he had been paid.
Mr. Kletter. No ; I did not say that.
Mr. Fltxt. Do you remember the line of questioning?
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
Mr. Fltxt. Will you clear that up for me ?
Mr. Kletter. I think I know what you are referring to, and if I
did say that, I was misunderstood- — what I believe I did say, we didn't
find it important if Barry & Enright, the producers, decided tliat they
wanted to give the contestants an advance or a drawing against their
winnings. This we found not important to us because it in no way
affected us.
Mr. Fltxt. I think that came a little bit later in the line of ques-
tioning.
You were asked a question, T believe, by Mr. Lishman, as to whether
or not you were informed of the amount of money that Mr, Jackman
was paid, and I believe you said that your records would show it.
INfr. Kletter. Would show it, yes,
Mr. Fltxt. You said you followed the program very carefully?
Mr. Kletter. Yes, sir.
Mr. Fltxt. The program indicated tliat he was paid $24,500.
ESrVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 173
Mr. Kletter. As far as I was concerned at that time, I believed he
was paid $24,500.
Mr. Flynt. Do you still have those records ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
Mr. Flyxt. Will you supply for the committee the amomit that
the records show that Mr. Jackman was paid?
Mr. Kletter. Right.
(Note. — Mr. Schultz, counsel for the company, later in this hearing, informed
the subcommittee that the amount paid to Mr. Jackman from company funds
was $15,000.)
Mr. Flynt. The second question that I want to clear up is the
statement
IVIr. Kletter. I understand, incidentally, that subsequently Mr.
Jackman was paid the balance.
Mr. Flynt. I mean at the initial time.
Mr. Kletter. He was paid the initial $9,400 subsequently by suing
Barry & Enright for it.
Mr. Flynt. That is the first we have heard about that.
Mr. Kletter. That is what I understood.
Mr. Flynt. That is the first we heard about that. TVTio told you
that?
Mr. Kletter. I think it came out in the testimony of the grand
jury by someone.
Mr. Flynt. To sort of refresh your memory on that, because I
have no knowledge on my own part of whatever came out in the
grand jury testimony. It may have. I don't know if it did. "Wliere
did you get the information on it ? From the grand jury ?
Mr. Kletter. Of coui*se not.
Mr. Flynt. Somebody who appeared before the grand jury?
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
Mr. Flynt. That he did bring suit for the additional amomit?
Mr. Kletter. That they finally paid him the additional $9,400.
Either he sued for it or asked for it or whatever it may have been ;
he was paid it.
Mr. Flynt. Do you recall who told you that ?
Mr. Kletter. I honestly don't know.
Mr. Flynt. If you can refresh your memory, will you supply it ?
Mr, Kletter. I sure will.
Mr, Flynt. You said you did not consider any difference between
the advancement of prize money and the advancement of salary?
Mr, Kletter. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Flynt. Salary is something that is earned, is it not ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
Mr. Flynt. Prize money is something that may or may not be
earned, depending on whether or not a question is answered correctly ?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct.
Mr. Flynt. One of the witnesses, I believe, testified that at least
some of these contestants had a possibility of losing the entire amount
that they accumulated. In view of that, you consider that they were
earning this money by their appearance on the program rather than
as a reward for successful answering of questions ?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct.
52294— 60— pt. 1 12
174 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Flynt. So they were not on there on the basis, according to
your statement, of what you might call contestants but as what you
might call quasi-salaried employees ?
Mr. Kletter. No, then I misunderstood your question.
You mean that they had made arrangements with contestants and
paid them?
Mr. Flynt. No, you did not say that. I did not say that you said
that.
You said you saw no difference between the advancing of prize
money and the advancing of salary. Do you want to stand on that
statement ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes. Because realistically, again I say, as I see it,
no real wrong was done nor was anyone harmed. If a Mr. Van Doren
or a Mr. X had won a certain amount of money at a certain time and
wanted an advance or wanted some money in advance to draw as
against his potential winnings. Let us assume that he had lost it
all. It is my firm belief that if Mr. Van Doren had lost it all, he
w ould have returned the money that was advanced to him.
This is my belief and my feeling as a human being. You just don't
turn somebody down if he has a good reason for asking for help.
Mr. Flynt. Do you know whether or not they took a note from
him on that advance ?
JMr. Kletter. I do not know.
Mr. Flynt. The reason I am asking that is a question of good busi-
ness practices.
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
Mr. Flynt. Does your company make advances on salaries ?
Mr. Kletter. We do occasionally; yes, sir. Depending upon cir-
cumstances. Sometimes substantial.
Mr. Flynt. Does that sort of set a precedent in the employer-
employee relationship ?
The reason I ask that, I am not trying to be facetious, I am asking
on the question of business practices.
Mr. Kletter. I understand that.
Mr, Flynt. It might set a precedent.
My information is that corporations by and large have a set rule —
unless it is a closely held corporation.
Mr. Kletter. Which we are.
Mr. Flynt. They say go to the bank and if necessary we will make
an assignment of your salary when it comes due. Does your company
make loans based on future salary ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes, we do. In deserving cases when the need is great,
we do. We do it substantially sometimes.
Mr, Flynt. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman, Mr. Moss,
Mr. Moss. Mr, Kletter, as I understand, at the time the contract
was negotiated with Barry & Enright, you were with Kletter Asso-
ciates acting as the agency for Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
]Mr. Kletit:r, That is right,
Mr, Moss, You were president of Kletter Associates?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Moss. At that time were you also vice president of Pharma-
ceuticals, Inc. ?
IN^'ESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 175
Mr. Kletter. No, I was not.
Mr. Moss. Were you at that time associated in any capacity with
Pharmaceuticals, Inc. ?
Mr. Kletter. Not directly, sir ; no.
Mr. Moss. This was in 1956.
Mr. Kletter. Beg pardon ?
Mr. Moss. This was in 1956.
Mr. Kletter. No. This was in 1953.
Mr. Moss. That you made your first contract for "Twenty-one" ?
Mr. Kletter. No, no ; I am soriy. That was in 1956.
I thought you meant my original arrangement with Pharmaceuti-
cals personally.
Mr. Moss. I am only interested in this particular program.
Mr. Kletter. That is correct, May of 1956.
Mr. Moss. Were you at that time with Kletter Associates ?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct.
Mr. Moss. Were you also associated with Pharmaceuticals, Inc. ?
Mr. Kletter. As the agency for Pharmaceuticals ; yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. That would be in the status of a client?
Mr. Kletter. Beg your pardon ?
Mr. INIoss. Pharmaceuticals, Inc., at that time were a client of
yours ?
Mr. Kletter. They were my client at that time.
Mr. Moss. Or an account '? ' ' '
Mr. Kletter. That is right.
Mr. Moss. But you were not at that time an officer or employee of
Pharmaceuticals?
Mr. Kletter. Of Pharmaceuticals; no, sir.
Mr. Moss. "Wlien did you become an officer of Pharmaceuticals,
Inc.?
Mr. Kletter. In 1957. October 1957.
Mr. Moss. The year after this contract was negotiated ?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Moss. In the negotiating of the contract, in arriving at the
figure for the prize money payment, what steps were taken to satisfy
you that that would in fact be sufficient to underwrite the cost of
prizes ? It was not an arbitrary figure, was it ?
Was it carefuly computed ?
Mr. Kletter. As far as we were concerned, we were merely told
that the prize moneys for the program would require a budget of
$10,000, which could be a little more or a little less than actually re-
quired.
Mr. Moss. But only less to vou under the conditions of the con-
tract?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct, sir. And that they had — ^by they,
I mean the producers of the program or the packagers — computed
this by some mathematical formula of their own that really did not
concern us.
Mr. Moss. You did not review their computation ?
Mr. Kletter. No. There was no need of it.
Mr. Moss. Of course, that becomes a matter of judgment. It goes
to a couple of other points.
Was this a noncancelable contract?
176 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Kletter. No. The contract was cancelable.
Mr. Moss. It had certain periods in which you could terminate the-
contract if you desired ?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct.
The first 26 weeks w^ere firm and thereafter each 13 weeks.
Mr. Moss. These were the periods which comcided with the ac-
counting for the prize money ?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Moss. Now, on the matter of advances, were your approvals
to these advances given in any form other than verbally ?
Mr. Kletter. Verbal only.
Mr. Moss. Only verbal ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. It was very clearly stated that you assumed no respon-
sibility as a result of any liability which might have been incurred
bv Barrv & Enright in making the advances, or did you share a
liability?
Mr. Kletter. No. There was no liability on our part at all.
Incidentally, they were not really approvals.
This was not a question, will you let me do this or not. It was
merely, I think, a courtesy call more than anything else to me to tell
me of the problem, and that this is what they are going to do. I
saw no reason to check for doing it. It was not a question, can I get
your approval to do this or do you disapprove. It was merely a
conversation or statement of fact that they intended to do, to which
we have no objections.
Mr. Moss. Now your first period of accounting came 26 weeks fol-
lowing the first program ?
Mr. Kletter. That is correct.
Mr. Moss. The first program was ?
Mr. Kletter. October 12, 1956.
Mr. Moss. November 1956 ?
Mr. Ivletter. October 1956.
Mr. Moss. October 12, 1956 ?
Mr. Kletter. That is right.
]Mr. Moss. Then the Jackman case would not come within that
period of accountability ; is that correct ? Nor did it ?
Mr. Kletter. I don't know. I don't remember when Mr. Jack-
man appeared, the exact date.
Mr. Moss. As a result of the subsequent developments, have you
ever felt sufficiently interested in the possibility to check back on the
reports or the records ?
Mr. Kletter. Oh, yes. At the end of the first 26-week period, and
I cannot give you exact amounts ; I do know at the end of the 26-week
period they were in arrears. In other words. Barry & Enright had
awarded prizes beyond the $10,000 a week.
Mr. Moss. Do you recall whether the Jackman payment was part
of the account rendered to you ?
Mr. Kletter. I would have to clieck my records.
Mr. ]Moss. You have never checked that fact?
INIr. Kletter. Beg pardon ?
It is a fact, Mr. Schults says.
Mr. Moss. It is a fact of this rendering to you ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 177
Mr. SciiULTS. Since I have been quoted, sir, may I vSay that once
the incident was called to our attention in 1958, we checked our records
and found that we had been billed for $15,000.
Mr. Moss. In other words, the billing was for $15,000 ?
Mr. ScHULTs. That is right.
Mr. Moss. And not for $1^4,500 ?
Mr. SciiuLTS. That is right.
]VIr. Moss. Then, having heard the charge that the $9,400 additional
was paid, did you ever check to make that determination? Or the
rumor that it was paid.
Mr. ScHULTS. May I continue to answer that because I was the one
that was told by IMr. Enright in a conference in my office as counsel
for the company about the Jackman incident. We checked and found
that we had only been billed for the amount allegedly paid, $15,000.
It was during that conversation that Mr. Enright reported to me that
subsequent to the $15,000 payment, a lawsuit had been instigated by
Mr. Jackman against Barry & Enright to recover the balance of
$9,400.
I have no knowledge as to the outcome of that lawsuit.
Mr. Moss. Then you have no record indicating that it was paid and
charged against the prize money for which accounting had to be made
to you?
Mr. Kletter. No.
Mr. Moss. On these accountings, how was the Nearing payment
handled? Was it handled as a $10,000 or a $5,500 payment?
Mr. Kletter. I think it was $10,000.
Mr. Moss. Your contract with Barry & Enright; did it call for
actual payment of prize moneys or actual entitlement to payment for
prize moneys ?
Mr. Kletter. Again I would like to state this. We did not pay
weekly based upon actual winnings.
Mr. Moss. I am talking of the period of accomitablity. If there was
an irregular payment in there, you would certainly not allow it unless
covered by your contract.
Mr. Kletter. That is correct.
Mr. Moss. Then did you contract require you to honor payments
actually made or entitlements to pajnnent ?
Mr. Kletter. Correct ; entitlements to payment.
Mr. Moss. If the Nearing was rendered at $10,000, you were over-
charged $4,500 ?
Mr. Kletter. And we would have so gotten reimbursed for it.
Mr. Moss. You would have disallowed that from the accounting?
Mr. Kletter. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. You read in the newspapers in August 1958 stories indi-
cating that charges had been made of fixing on "Twenty-one" ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. A^'lien were you first contacted either by the district at-
torney or by the grand jury ?
Mr. Kletter. I don't recall.
Mr. Moss. Was it in August, September, or was it in 1959 ? Was it
1958?
Mr. ICletter. It was in 1959, 1 believe.
Mr. Moss. You indicated that the mere circulation or repeating of
the charges did not convince vou as to their truthfulness.
178 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Kletter. No. We canceled, incidentally, the progi'am in Oc-
tober of 1958, 1959. No, 1958.
Mr. Moss. I think you said that the cancellation was a negotiated
termination for which yon received certain consideration from NBC ?
Mr. Kletter. Beg pardon ?
Mr. Moss. I think you indicated earlier in testimony that was a ne-
gotiated termination of your sponsorship?
Mr. Kletter. Well, no. It was an agreed upon termination of our
sponsorship.
Mr. Moss. You indicated in response to a question as to whether or
not there was any payment made as the result of that termination that
you received certain concessions.
Mr. Kletter. Oh, no. There were no considerations for termina-
tion.
Mr. Moss. Of any type?
Mr. Kletter. No, sir.
Mr. Moss. You terminated at the end of a report period which was
your entitlement under the contract ?
Mr. Kletter. No. We terminated prior to our rightful termination
period because of the circumstances that later developed in comiec-
tion with the program.
Mr. Moss. Then you terminated in October 1958,
Mr. Kletter. That is right, sir.
Mr. Moss. At the time of termination were you then convinced that
the program had been in fact irregulai'ly handled ?
Mr. Kletter. We terminated because of that.
Mr. Moss. 'V\'liat information, charge, evidence, convinced you of
that fact?
Mr. Kletter. I think that is quite obvious. After all of the appear-
ances by witnesses before the grand jury, my own appearances.
Mr. Moss. But this is prior to your appearance before the grand
jury. The grand jury was convened on September 18, 1958.
Mr. Kletter, I am soriy. You are absolutely right, sir.
Mr. Moss. So you became convinced of this fact prior to your ap-
pearance before the gi'and jury ?
Mr. Kletter, Yes,
Mr, ScHULTS, You say September?
Mr. Moss. I am asking you for the information which led you to
conclude that the charges were in fact true.
Mr. Kletter. I think we are a bit confused as to the dates.
Mr. Moss, You terminated in October?
Mr, Kletter, We terminated October 1958, The articles appeared,
I believe, some time in the latter part of August 1958, The grand
jury investigation I honestly don't recall exactly when they com-
menced. It was September of 1958, Inunediately thereafter. Im-
mediately after the articles came out the grand jury investigations
were brought about, I do believe — I am not sure of this now — that I
may have appeared in Mr. Stone's office prior to our cancellation of
this program,
Mr, Moss, Your involvement then convinced you whether or not
the charges were true, it would be better to get out of the contract?
]\Ir, Kletter. Both that, and we began to suspect where there is
smoke, there is fire.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 179
Mr. Moss. That is all of my questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Klette-r, did you ever insist in the contract
that "Twenty-one'' be an honest contest of knowledge?
Mr. Kleti'ek. Oh, yes. Insist on it?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Kletter, I think that is more or less an accepted fact, and the
clauses of agreements for programs, morals, ethics, truth, et cetera,
are part of contracts, and certainly this would have been a part of
that clause even though it may not have so been spelled out.
The Chairman. After you dropped "Twenty-one," did you not
sponsor another Bariy & Enright production known as "Concentra-
tion" ?
Mr. Kletter. For 4 week, I believe, yes.
The Chairman. For a period of 4 weeks?
Mr. KioEtter. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Your previous experience with the quiz show,
"Twenty-one," did not raise any suspicion ?
Mi\ Kletter. Of course, these were different type shows com-
pletely. There were no moneys involved in this thing. No big
stakes involved. Frankly we were quite emotionally upset about this
thing. There has been an emotional upheaval in our own organi-
zation, top level, when all of this happened. Frankly I think we
did it out of the graciousness of our hearts at the time to let a sub-
stitute program of Barry & Enright go in its place. This might
sound ludicrous but that is true.
The Chairman. At the end of the 13-week period, was there any-
thing returned to you out of the accumulated winnings?
Mr. Kletter. Actually, I think I testified before, at the conclusion
of the last sponsorship of the progi-am in October 1958, the total
amomit of prize moneys awarded was $75,000 and some odd greater
than we actually paid to the producers of the program. So obviously
there was no refund to> us.
The Chairman. Who stood for that $75,000?
Mr. Kletter. Barry & Enright or NBC or whoever was responsi-
ble for it at the time. I assume NBC since we were dealing with
NBC at the conclusion of this program.
The Chairman. Just one final question. Could you give the com-
mittee approximately the percentage of the cost of manufacturing of
Geritol that would be attributable to advertising cost?
Mr. Kletter. The cost of advertising the product, the percentage
that was spent for advertising?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Kletter. It ranges around 40 percent, which is common, inci-
dentally, in the industry.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Kletter, you say that your company was respon-
sible for the money to which the contestant was entitled, rather than
the actual amount paid.
Mr. Kletter. I don't follow the question.
Mr. Flynt. In response to a question from Mr. Moss, I believe, you
made the statement that Pharmaceuticals, Inc., was required to pay
under the terms of the contract the amount to which the contestant
was entitled.
Mr. Kletter. No. Under the terms of our contract. Pharmaceu-
ticals, Inc., was to pay to the producer $10,000 per week for prize
180 INVESTIGATIOX OF TELE%T;SI0X QUIZ SHOWS
moneys. There vras no specific languasfe that said "we pay exact
amounts paid to contestants, with the miderstanding, of course, that
this 810,000 per week cannot be exceeded, so far as our liability is con-
cerned. If it is exceeded, it would be the producers* liability.
]Mr. Fltxt. In the fall of 1956, when ]Mr. Jackman. according to
the program, won $24,500. and your records came through and showed
that he was paid only $15,000, didn't that make you a little bit
suspicious ?
]\Ir. Kletter. Again I must admit that I did not see those records
at the time. That was drawn to our attention later.
^Ir. Flyxt. You did not see it when it came through?
Mr. Kletter. Xo.
;Mr, Fltxt. "When was that first called to your attention?
!Mr. Kletter. As a matter of fact, I am not sure, and I would have
to check records carefully and scrutinize them, whether $15,000 came
through as payment or $24,500 came through as payment. I don't
know.
Mr. Fltxt. Would you like to answer that, Mr. Schults?
!Mr. ScHTTLTs. I wondered if you would be interested in the precise
language of the agreement with respect to the prize money ?
Mr. Fltxt. Yes. I would.
Mr. Schults. With your permission I would like to read it into
the record. After listing the program prices which varied in various
contract years, the agreement goes on to say:
In addition to the foregoing sums, it is agreed that we will pay a maximum
of -SIO.OOO per telec-ast for prize money averaged over the first two cycles and
^ach cycle thereafter. In the event a sum less than .§260.000 is awarded during
the first two cycles, or less than .$130,000 during any subsequent cycle thereafter,
the savings shall be reimbursed to us.
The key word is "awarded."
Mr. Fltxt. Did you construe the word "award" the amount an-
nounced on television?
'Sir. Kletter. Yes.
^It. Fltxt. Was the advance made to Mr. Van Doren ?
!Mr. Kletter. Yes. sir.
^Ir. Fltxt. Was that before or after the settlement was made with
Mr. Jackman ?
Mr. Kletter. I don't know. I asstmie that was before. I am not
sure which came first. Jackman or Van Doren.
^Mr. Fltxt. I think the record will show that it was after. Let us
assume it was after. Didn't those two circumstances cause your sus-
picions to be aroused a little bit that it might not be quite bona fide?
!Mr. Kletter. As I indicated before, I was not aware of the Jack-
man situation at all until just recently when all of this came to light.
Mr. Fltxt, But all of the figures were available to you.
Mr. Kletter. They were. But as far as our records at the time, I
believe, indicated, the amount that he had won was the amount that
was ref>orted to us as paid him.
Mr. Fltxt. "When were you told or did you say that the additional
$9..500 was paid him ?
Mr. Kletter. I don't know that. I understand there was a demand
made or a suit instituted. "VMiether it was paid him or not I cannot
sav.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 181
Mr. Flynt. Are you prepared now to say who told you that ?
Mr. Kletter. No, Mr. Schults is probably the one that told it to
me because Mr. Enright told it to him.
Mr. Flynt. Would you answer that, Mr. Schults ?
Mr. Schults. As I explained before, I was first told of the Jackman
incident by Mr. Stone in a conference in his office during the early
days.
Mr. Flynt. JSIr. Stone is the assistant district attorney ?
Mr. Schults. In the grand jury investigation, Mr. Stone being the
district attorney in charge of the matter. AVhen I heard about it, I
sent for Mr. Enright and demanded an explanation. He gave me the
one I presume has been given here which his version differed somewhat
from the version I had listened to this morning of Mr. Jackman.
It was during that conference that Mr. Enright told me that after
the $15,000 had been paid to Mr. Jaclnnan that sometime subsequently
a law suit had been started to recover the balance of $9,400. My rec-
ollection is that at the time I was told this, which must have been in
September 1958, the impression I had was that the lawsuit was pend-
ing. I have no knowledge whether any payment has been made or
any settlement arrived at.
Mr. Moss. I wanted to have clarified for the record the interpreta-
tion of the contract because Mr. Kletter in response to a very specific
question from me indicated that it would have been proper to disallow
any amount paid to Mrs. Nearing above $5,500. Here, in fact, $10,000
was paid. It would not be crecfited in an accounting for the period
involved. It would be a disallowal of $4,500 of that payment.
Mr. Kletter. That is correct. At the conclusion, however, we were
always in this position, where the prize moneys paid out were always
greater than what we paid Barry & Enright. Therefore, it was of no
significance to make issue of it.
Mr. Flynt. You will furnish for the record the sheets furnished
to you by Barry & Enright showing the amount paid to Mr. Jackman.
Mr. Schults. They are in the hands of committee counsel now, sir.
The Chairman. They are in your hands now, Mr. Lishman. They
were filed in the record this morning as checks.
Mr. Flynt. I am talking about amounts paid to Mr. Jackman and
the other contestants.
Mr. Kletter. Yes. I believe all of that was furnished to the grand
jury in New York.
Mr. Flynt. And is available to us.
Mr. Kletter. And is in their hands now.
(Photostatic copy of sheet showing amount paid to Mr. Jaclanan
follows:) -..
182
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
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INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 183
Mr. EoGERS. Mr. Kletter, to clear up one thing-, you told the chair-
man that 40 percent of the cost of Geritol was spent for advertising,
is that right ?
Mr. Kletter. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. You are talking about the retail cost of it, are you not?
Mr, Kletter. No, of our sales. Forty percent of our sales.
Mr. Rogers. Your actual cost ?
Mr. Kletter. Not our cost ; our sales.
Mr. Rogers. Your sales. The sale price.
Mr. Kletter. That is right. To our wholesalers, et cetera.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Kletter, how many weeks did you have the pro-
gram "Twenty-one" ?
Mr. Kletter. 105, 1 believe, is the total.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Is it a fact that the average prize money paid out
over that time was $10,000 a w^eek?
Mr. Kletter. It was over that.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was it close to $10,000 a week?
Mr. Kletter. It was $750 over that.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In 104 weeks?
Mr. Kletter. In 105 weeks. If you want the exact figure we have it.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In other words, it might be a difference of five or
six hundred dollars a week over a 105 weeks. Isn't that a ratlier
amazing coincidence for a game of chance or skill, or whatever this
was?
Mr. Kletter. Oh, no. You must remember that didn't average
$750 a week. Some weeks it went $40,000 over and there may have
been weeks when there were no payments made at all.
Mr. LiSHMAN. But it averaged out to a little over $10,000 a week?
Mr. Kletter. You asked me whether that is a coincidence. Was
that your question ?
Mr. LiSHMAN. It averaged a little over $10,000 a week, did it not?
Mr. Ki^tter. That is correct. About $750 over $10,000 a week.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Don't you think that is an amazing coincidence?
Mr. Kletter. I really couldn't answer. I think a mathematician
would have to be consulted.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Wouldn't that indicate that there was some budge-
tary control exercised in the award of the prizes in the program?
Mr. Kletter. If you are asking me whether I believe that in some
instances these contestants were controlled based ujDon what I heard
and saw and now know, I would say yes, there is -some control.
The Chairman. Do you object to the photographers taking pictures
of you ?
Mr. Kletter. I don't particularly like to have my picture taken.
The Chairman. If you don't object they want to do it.
Mr. Kletter. I prefer not to. Thank you very much.
The Chairman. Thank you very much for your appearance.
Mr. Kletter. Thank you, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Thomas Ervin, will you be sworn, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Erven. I do.
184 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS E. ERVIN, VICE PRESIDENT AND
GENERAL ATTORNEY, NATIONAL BROADCASTING CO.
The Chairman. What is your name, please, for the record.
Mr. Ervin. Thomas E. Ervin.
The Chairman. What is your address, Mr. Ervin ?
Mr. Ervin. 370 First Avenue, New York City.
The Chairman. What is your business or profession ?
Mr. Ervin. I am a lawyer. My present position is vice president
and general attorney of the National Broadcasting Co. I have here
a brief statement which was to have been presented by Mr. Walter
Scott, the executive vice president of NBC in charge of the NBC
television network. With the pennission of the Chairman, I would
like to read the statement for the record.
The Chairman. I might say that Mr. Scott did write me a letter
to the eifect that he would appear as a representative of the National
Broadcasting Co.
Mr. Ervin, Mr. Scott unfortunately is convalescing from a recent
operation and is physically unable to be here today.
The Chairman. You are here in his stead ?
Mr. Erwn. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. You are vice president and general counsel of the
company ?
Mr. Ervin. General attorney is the title, sir.
The Chairman. Very well. You may read the statement.
Mr. Ervin (reading) :
The National Broadcasting: Co. regrards riggingr of television oniz shows as a
breach of public faith and a blight on a program type that otherwise can be
both entertaining and instructive. No such practice can be justified and none
has ever been contenanced by NBC. If and when rigging in any form exists,
it should be given full public exposure — and, with this aim in mind. NBC has
cooperated fully with all public investigations of quiz programs, including those
of the New York district attorney and grand jury and the House Subcommittee
on Legislative Oversight,
When charges against the program "Twenty-one" were first made public last
fall, its producers, Barry & Enright, gave NBC written and verbal assurance
that these charges were without foundation. Nevertheless, NBC took prompt
action to relieve Barry & Enright of any control over these programs pending
the outcome of the investigation. Direct production responsibility of all Barry
& Enright programs on NBC was thereafter assumed by the network.
In addition, security procedures on all quiz programs were reviewed. As a
further safeguard, an outside organization was asked to make an Independent
review of these procedures and recommend any new steps which might addi-
tionally safeguard the integrity of the pi-ograms. This organization. Arthur
Young & Co., found security arrangements on all six NBC quiz shows to be in good
order but also developed new recommendations concerning security procedures
on the quiz programs.
At the request of the New York district attorney, NBC refrained from its
own interrogation of quiz show contestants. Throughout the district attorney's
investigation, NBC furnished all information requested. After the grand jury's
presentment had been sealed, a public controversy arose over the propriety of
i-eleasing the presentment. NBC felt that public disclosure of the grand jury's
findings would throw valuable light on the truth or falsity of the various charges
made against quiz programs, and it therefore publicly urged that the present-
ment be unsealed if the court found such action legally permissible.
In the same spirit, NBC has worked with the Special Subcommittee on Legis*-
lative Oversight in furnishing all requested documents, including the Arthur
Young report, and in assisting the subcommittee to locate witnesses it wished
to question. NBC believes that the subcommittee is performing a vital public j
service in undertaking to develop and place before the American public the true
facts concerning those quiz shows whose conduct is under question.
ESrVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 185
That is the end of the statement.
The Chairman. Do you care to make a further statement of your
own, Mr. Ervin?
Mr. Ervin. No, Mr. Chairman. But I would be jjlad to answer
any questions that the members of the committee and the staff would
like to ask. There has been considerable testimony today in which
my name has been mentioned, and I would like to answer questions
very much on that score.
The Chairman. In view of the fact NBC and 3^our name has been
brought in, I thought I would give you an opportunity to make any
further statement you wished.
Mr. Ervin. If the comisel is prepared to ask questions, I would pre-
fer to do it by that method.
The Chairman. Mr. Lishman.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Ervin, I would say with respect to the last
paragraph of the statement that it is perfectly in accord with what
actually happened. NBC has cooperated with the staff members of
the subcommittee and has furnished a great deal of information in a
very cooperative manner.
Now, I would like to ask you, is it true that about a year before the
Stempel charges broke into the press that NBC representatives had a
meeting with Mv. Enright and Mr. Franklin and Mr. Davis of the
Barry & Enright firm ?
Mr. Ervin. Yes ; it is. Those charges came to my attention in Sep-
tember of 1957.
Mr. Lishman. Wlio were the representatives of NBC present at this
first meeting?
Mr. Ervin. Mr. Eiges and Mr. Ellis Moore.
Mr. Lishman, Do you have any knowledge or record of what tran-
spired at that meeting ?
Mr. Er\^n. I have a report from Mr. Eiges as to what transpired
at the meeting. There were no notes kept and no other record, x^s a
matter of fact, Mr. Eiges advised me of the meeting shortly after it
occurred. He told me
Mr, Lishman. Is that a written report ?
Mr. Ervin. No ; that was an oral report.
Mr, Lishman, So that there are no written reports of that meeting?
Mr. Ervin. There are none.
Mr, Lishman, What did Mr. Eiges report to you?
Mr Ervin. Mr, Eiges reported to me that Dan Enright and several
representatives of their publicity firm had informed them that the
Journal American was preparing to publish a story, based on charges
of a man named Stempel, that Stempel had received questions and
answers in advance on the "Twenty-one"' program, j\Ir. Enright had
assured him that these charges were false, that he was in a position
to prove that they were false. He had a written statement from
Mr. Stempel admitting the falsity of the charges.
The Chairman. "Wlio was tliat that had that information?
Mr, Ervin. Mr. Enright. That they were interested in two things,
they wanted to see whether or not the true story, the true facts as
to Stempel's charges could not be made available to the Journal
American, and they were interested as to whether NBC would con-
sider joining Barry & Enright in a libel action against the newspaper
if these charges were published.
186 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
It was because of this latter aspect of the conference that Mr,
Eiges ininiecliately called me and informed me of it.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Ervin, are you aware of the fact that two wit-
nesses have testified before the subcommittee, JSIr. Davis and Mr.
Franklin, who were also present at this meeting in 1957 prior to the
breaking of the Stempel story in the newspapers, and that each of
those witnesses testified in effect that Mr. Enright was not asked at
that meeting by anyone whether the Stempel charges were tnie or
false.
Mr. Erat:n. I heard Mr. Franklin's testimony and I was informed
of Mr. Davis' testimony.
Mr. LiSHMAN. But according to the report Mr. Eiges made to
you—
Mr. Ervin. Eiges' report to me was to the effect that Mr. Enright
stated flatly that these charges were untrue and that he had evidence
in his possession to establish it.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did he show that evidence to any of the NBC
representatives?
Mr. Ervin. He did not. I immediately called Ervin Cohen, an
attorney, wlio represents Mr. Enright, and I suggested to him that
he come to my office with Mr. Enright to discuss the situation. That
discussion took place on a Friday morning which I have verified from
other records to have taken place on September 20, 19.57.
Mr. LisHMAN. Was this meeting after May 2, 1957 ?
Mr. Ervin. It was on September 20, 1957.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And on May 2, 1957, as I understand, NBC bought
the property from Barry & Enright, is that correct ?
Mr. Ervin. That is correct.
Mr. LiSHMAN. How much ?
Mr. Ervin. The purchase price was $2.2 million.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were there some pluses in addition ? I have a copy
of the contract before me. Who is Mr. Eiges ?
Mr. Ervin. Mr. Sydney Eiges is a vice president of NBC in charge
of press.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Who is Mr. Moore ?
Mr. Ervin. Mr. Moore is an employee of NBC who works for Mr.
Eiges.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Ervin. Mr. Lishman has shown me a paragraph of the contract
which refers to certain profit-sharing arrangements which were a
part of the transaction. The purchase from Barry & Enright was a
purchase of all the assets of a corporation which was then known as
Barry & Enright Productions, Inc. It included a great many pro-
grams, not just the program "Twenty-one." It included many of the
programs which Barry & Enright had been very successful with in
earlier years, such as "Life Begins at 80," "Juvenile Jury," "Hi-Lo.""
and others.
It was provided in the contract that after NBC had recouped from
its sale of the properties all of the basic purchase price which was
approximately $2.2 million there would tiien be a sharing of profits
on a 50-50 basis with Barry & Enright. The paragraph wliich you
have shown me establislied what we called the crossover hurdle to
determine when we had recouped tlirougli to the point of view of
profit sharing.
IN\-ESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 187
Mr. LiSHMAx. Mr. Ervin, after this meeting, attended by Mr. Eig-es
and Mr. Moore for NBC, and Mr. Enrigiit and Mr. Davis and Mr.
Franklin for Barry & Enriglit, did the NBC conduct an investigation
to ascertain whether or not the Stempel charges were true ?
Mr. Ervix. As I told you, I immediately called Irving Cohen and
arranged for this conference with Mr. Cohen, Mr. Enright. A lawyer
on my staff named Ben Raub also attended the meeting. Mr. Enright
gave me a detailed account of Mr. StempePs charges against him. He
said that Mv. Stempel has been under psychiatric treatment after
appearing on the program ; that he had made these charges to several
people; that he had come to Mr. Enright's office and Mr. Enright had
told him that he would be unable to discuss the matter with him or to
help him at all unless he, Stempel, agreed with ]Mr. Enright that
these charges were false and withdrew them.
Mr. Stempel made a written statement to that effect and gave it
to Mr. Enright. Mv. Enright also said that this conversation which
he had with Mr. Stempel took place for a considerable period of time;
that he had a tape recorder in his office and liad recorded on tape the
entire conversation ; that in the course of this conversation Mr. Stempel
admitted the charges were false and apologized for having made them.
He said the tape recording itself, a transcript of it or the written
statement were available in his office for my inspection at any time.
He also related certain additional details as to the Stempel charges,
all of which I do not remember at this time. The meeting lasted, as
I recall it, all of Friday- morning.
Mr. LisHMAN. Going back to the meeting that preceded your meet-
ing with the attorney and Mr. Enright, the witnesses before the sub-
committee, Davis and Franklin, have testified that at that meeting,
which was attended by Mr. Eiges and Moore, and on which you have
this oral report from Mr. Eiges, that the meeting concluded with the
result that every one present would sit tight and play the situation by
ear.
Did the oral report that Mr. Eiges made to 3'ou contain any such
inclusion ?
Mr. Ervin. Mr. Eiges made no such report to me and I would be
very much surprised if the statement had been made to that effect at
the meeting because several things did take place. One was my meet-
ing with Mr. Cohen and Mr. Enright. Another was Mr, Eiges tele-
phoned the Journal-American and said we understand that you are
planning to run a series of articles based on charges of a man named
Stempel. We would appreciate it if you would come and talk to us
about those charges before you publish the story because we think
there is another side of the story. "We have some infomiation we
think you ought to have.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did any representative of NBC at any time contact
Mr. Stempel and ask him concerning the truth of his chai'ges?
Mr. ER\^N. No. The meeting that I held with Mr. Cohen I have
not completed the full story on if you would like to hear the rest of it.
Mr. LisH ■MAN. I would like to hear the rest of that ; yes, sir.
Mr. Ervin. Mr. Cohen as attorney for Barry i<c Enright then dis-
cussed with me the possibilities of bringing a libel action in the event
that this story was published. I told him that I would like to con-
sider that further and that we would discuss the matter aauin the
188 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
followiner week since we both had other tilings to do that afternoon.
On Monday morning Mr. Eiges called me
Mr. LiSHMAN. Monday morning of what month ?
Mr. Ervin. Monday morning following Friday, September 20, Mr.
Eiges called me and said that he had been informed by the Journal
American that they had concluded not to publish the story. I assumed
from that report that the Journal American had concluded that there
was not sufficient evidence to back up the charges of Mr. Stempel. I
did nothing further to investigate the charges after that day.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did any one else in NBC do anything further after
that date to investigate these charges ?
Mr. Ervin. Not at that time.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Then there came a time, did there not, when the
Stempel story broke in the newspapers ?
Mr. Ervin. That was about a year later on August 28, 1958.
Mr. LiSHMAN. On the evening of xVugust 28, did you attend a meet-
ing attended by Mr. Enright and by others of the Barry & Enright
organization to discuss that situation ?
Mr. Ervin. I did.
Mr. LisHMAN. Can you state what discussion was had at that
meeting ?
Mr. Ervin. As I recall the meeting, Mr. Bilby, vice president in
charge of public relations for NBC, was present, Dan Enright, Mr.
Franklin, Mr. Davis, Mr. Eiges, and Irving Cohen, the attorney for
Daniel Enright, who attended the meeting in my office. The subject
tinder discussion at the meeting was the issuance of a press release
because of the story that had been published in the World-Telegram
that day. The story was the story of the Stempel charges. As I
recall, Mr. Franklin was very insistent that what we should do, that is,
what Mr. Enright should do — not what NBC should do — was to re-
lease to the public immediately the written statement from Stempel,
signed by Stempel, that these charges were untrue. That the tape
recording should also be released to the public, and that this would be
the best refutation of the Stempel charges which were untrue. I
told the meeting that the district attorney was investigating quiz pro-
grams. That I thought that a date should be made with the district
attorney immediately and that this evidence on the Stempel charges,
including the tape recording and the statement, should be turned
over to the district attorney at once. That there should be no publicity
released as to its existence, and that I felt this was very important.
I offered to call Mr. McKay, who was a partner of our outside
comisel of Cahill, Gordon, Roundoh & Ohl, an old firm — Mr. KcKay
is sitting next to me, incidentally — to set up an appointment with the
district attorney that evening, if possible, and if not, the first tiling
Friday morning. That step was agreed to. I telephoned Mr. McKay.
While Mr. McKay was trying to set up the appointment we worked
on the text of the release. Mr. Cohen announced that he had been
instructed by his clients, that is, Barry & Enright, to file immediately
a libel suit against the World Telegram and asked that we join the
suit. I said that NBC was not prepared to join in the libel suit at
that time ; that we felt we should turn this material over to the district
attorney first; and that there was plenty of time to consider what type
of private action to take later on. As a result of that meeting the
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 189
press release, the text of which has been read, was written by NBC
people, approved by me, and issued.
Mr. LisHMAX. You said a police investigation had been made.
The Chairman. Pardon me riijlit there, Mr. Lislmian.
Mr. Ervin, may I ask if jSIr. Franklin was present at that meeting
you have just described?
Mv. Ervin. He was.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And Mr. Davis ?
Mr. Ervin. Mr. Davis.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And Mr. Eiges?
Mr. Ervin. Mr. Eiges.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And Mr. Moore ?
Mr. Ervin. No ; Mr. Moore was not present.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Bilby?
Mr. Ervin. Mr. Bilby.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What was the thorough investigation that NBC
had completed that is referred to in that press release?
Mr. Ervin. Incidentally, I have a copy of the press release here
in its original text if you would like to have it.
Mr. LiSHMAN, Yes, sir; we would. We have an extract from it.
Mr. Ervin. I think the word "thorough" in connection with the
investigation is not used with respect to the one we made.
Mr. LiSHMAN. "Wliat was this investigation ?
Mr, Ervin. The investigation that was made was the 2- to 3-hour
conference I had with Mr. Enright and his attorney in my office,
in which he outlined in detail to me the evidence which he had to
the effect that Stempel had withdrawn these charges, had admitted
they were false, both in a written statement and in a recording of a
long conversation.
Mr. Enright was a person with whom we had done business for
many years. He had an excellent reputation in the business. In all
the dealings I had had with him, I considered him a thoroughly
honorable person. I believed completely his story at that time.
Mr. LiSHMAN. But at no time from September 20, 1957, down to
the time when the grand jury began its investigations NBC did con-
tact any contestant or any pei^son in this investigation other than Mr,
Enright and his attorney, is that correct?
Mr. Ervin. We did not contact any contestants at all in that period.
Mr. LisHAiAN. What persons other than Mr. Enright and his
lawyer did NBC question with regard to this question?
Mr. Ervin. With regard to the Stempel charges in 1957, no other
person.
When the district attorney announced his investigation, we imme-
diately urged, as I said at this meeting, that this evidence be turned
over to him at once. Mr. McKay set up an appointment with Mr.
Stone of the district attorney's office.
The appointment was the Friday morning following our meeting,
Mr. McKay, Mr. Franklin, Mr. Enright, Mr. Irving Cohen, appeared
in the district attorney's office, turned over to them the written stnte-
ment from Mr. Stein])el in which he witlidrew his charges, the tape
recording of the conference, and I have been advised by Mr. McKay
that Mr. Franklin at that meeting in the district attorney's office
52294— 60— pt. 1 13
190 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
several times stated very flatly that the Stempel charges were untrue |
and it was perfectly plain that the recording and the written state- ij
ment estahlishecl that fact. |
Mr. LisHMAN. Are you aware that Mr. Franklin has testified to the |
contrary here today ? (
Mr. Ervin. I heard Mi-. Franklin's testimony. |
Mr. LiSHMAN. You contradict his testimony? \
Mr. Ervin. I do. . . S
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you hear Mr. Franklin make this contrary I
statement in the district attorney's office ? \
Mr. Ervin. I did not. My recollection as to Mr. Franklin's state-
ment as to tlie same effect goes back to the meeting in the evening be-
fore in Mr. Bilby's office.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What did Mr. Franklin say in Mr. Bilby's office ?
Mr. Erat:n. Mr. Franklin's position in Mr. Bilby's office was that the
written statement of Mr. Stempel and the complete text of the tape
recording established completely that Mr. Stempel was unstable, that
his charges were untrue, and that as a public relations man he felt the
best thing to do was to issue these publicly at once.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Are you aware that Mr. Franklin testified that the
main thing you were concerned with was not in ascertaining the tinith
or falsity of Stempel's charges, but how to handle the impact they
would make in the public press ?
Mr. Ervin. I heard Mr. Franklin's testimony to that effect, a re-
port of Mr. Davis's testimony was made to me. That was not our
concern at all.
Mr. LiSHMAN. When the Snorgrass incident came to the attention
of NBC, what did it do?
Mr. Ervin. In late Stepember 1958 — and by this time I believe the
grand jury had been convened— there appeared a story in the news-
paper by Mr. Snodgrass to the effect that he had been given questions
and answers on "Twenty-one" and that he had mailed the answers to
himself, substantially the testimony wliich this committee has heard.
This was the first occasion upon which we had any notice at all of
Mr. Snodgrass' charges.
I immediately called Mr. Cohen and told him that this was a most
serious development, that we wanted from them at once a complete
statement as to what dealings anybody at Barry & Enright had had
with Mr. Snodgrass, and a statement under oath as to whether or
not these charges were true.
We received a letter from Mr. Enright, followed up by nine affi-
davits, copies of which I have here, affidavits from ]NIr. Barry, INIr.
Enright, Mr. Freeman, four other members of the staff, all of these ;
affidavits have flat statements in them that at no time did affiant
give any questions or answers to Mr. Snodgrass.
We also convened a series of meetings at NBC what additional
steps should be taken, since this was a second charge involving
"Twenty-one," and we came to the conclusion tliat we would haA'e to
take over production responsibility for all of the Barry & Enright
programs.
We approached Barry & Enright as to this. As a result, an agree-
ment with Barry & Enright was arrived at under which they were
removed — under wiiich ]\Ir. Enright was removed — as executive pro-
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 191
diicer of the programs, and we assumed direct production control of
all of them.
I believe that agreement was reached witliin ?> days of the Snodgrass
charges. From that time on, the production of the programs orig-
inally obtained from Barry & Enright have been conducted under the
direct supervision of NBC personnel.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Mr. Ervin, in the light of tlie testimony that has been
recei^•ed by the subcommittee, do you today still believe that the
Stempel and Snodgrass charges ai'e untrue 'i
Mr. Ervi]s\ Mr. Lishman, the testimony whicli I have read in tran-
script form indicates to me that the charges ha\e considerable founda-
tion. The only reason I say "indicate" is that this committee has not
heard the balance of the testimony. If the balance of the testimony is
the same as the testimony now in the record, there is no doubt in my
mind that these charges are true.
If that is so, I think tliat we have been very badly deceived by
Mr. Enright, who has given us repeated written and verbal assurances
as to tlie honesty and integrity of this program.
The Chairman. Did you say that he had given you repeated written
and verbal statements ?
Mr. Ervin. I have some of them here, Mr. Chairmaii.
The Chairman. Will you provide the committee with such wi'itten
statements as you have ?
Mr. Ervin. ' I will be glad to.
We have already provided the affidavits on tlie Snodgrass charges.
I will give them copies of the other statements.
I might read a sentence or two from one of them, which is typical.
This is a statement Jack Barry made on the "Twenty-one" program.
He made this on September 8, 1958. He insisted that he be permitted
to make a statement on the program and Pharmaceuticals asked us
if we would consent. We did. The statement reads :
This is Jack Barry. Before the program starts there is sometliing I must say
to all of you. I am talking about the stories that you have read attacking my
partner. Dan Enright, and me. All I want to say is this :
The stories are wholly untrue. I repeat, they are wholly untrue. At no time
has any contestant ever been given advance information about any questions
ever used on this program. It has been a terrible experience to have to combat
the unfounded charges that have been flying at us, but we do consider ourselves
lucky in one respect. So many of you have exjiressed your faith in us and in
our program. A wise man once said the truth will win out. I know that it
will for we have not betrayed your trust in us. We never will.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Ervin, are you familiar with the controls that
NBC exercised over the program to insure that the public would not
be deceived in a quiz program at the time when you first undertook
to broadcast the "Twentv-one" program ?
Mr. Ervin. In 1056 ? "^
Mr. Lishman. Yes.
INIr. Ervin. The program before it ^Yent on the air was screened by
our continuity acceptance personnel. We had in the studio each time
the program went on the air a representative of NBC, a man known
as the unit manager. While his responsibilities were primarily busi-
ness responsibilities, he vs^as also to re{)ort any untoward incidents that
occurred on the program. He never reported any such incidents at all.
In our investigations, after the charges were made public, we inter-
192 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
viewed all of these men and we could find nothing to substantiate any
of the stories at that time.
Mr. LiSHMAN. After the September 1957 meeting, did NBC under-
take to make any changes in the controls that were exercised to insure
the freedom from deception of what was going out on the airwaves
on that quiz show ?
Mr. Ervix. I think we continued to exercise the same controls. We
made no change after the September 20 meeting.
Mr. LisiTMAN. Did you make any effort to see that the contestants
were not being assisted in tlieir answers to the questions ?
Mr. Ervix. We did not believe that contestants w^ere being assisted.
We had no reason to suspect they were.
Mr. LisiiMAN. You had the charges of Stempel at that time ?
Mr. Er^t:n. We were convinced, or I was convinced, that the charges
of Stempel were not true.
Mr. LiSHMAX. After the story broke in the newspapers, did NBC
then undertake — —
Mr. Er\t:x. Yes ; we did.
Mr. LiSHMAN (continuing). To revise its method of control ?
What did you do then ?
Mr. Er\t:n. The first steps that we took in August of 1958 were
started as a result of the "Dotto" exposures in the newspaper. I
assigned an attorney on my staff, a man named Edward Burns, who
had had FBI experience, to go around and talk to all of the NBC
unit managers on all of the quiz programs then being broadcast, not
just the Barry & Enriglit shows, to make a detailed and thorough
study of the security procedures, the number of people who knew
questions in advance, the ways in which the program ran, and to
discuss with all the working NBC people in the program whether or
not any untow^ard incidents had happened, whether they thought there
w^as any kind of coaching of contestants or rigging going on.
This investigation took 3 or 4 weeks. At about the conclusion of
it, the Snodgrass charges were made public, and we decided we were
going to have to take direct steps with respect to the Barry & Enright
programs, which we did, and which I have talked to you about.
I also called Mr. McKay at that time and said there is a sharp issue
of fact here. We must find out what the truth is. We can go no
further without talking directly to these contestants, particularly
Mr. Snodgrass. I would like to talk to him now, but I don't want to
interfere with the district attorney's investigation.
Mr. McKay went to the district attorney and talked to them, ex-
plained our problem. The district attorney's office said that there
had been many people trying to talk to these contestants, it was inter-
fering with his own investigation, and, while he could not tell us
what conduct w^e should follow, he would appreciate it if we did not
directly interview these contestants and wait for the conclusion of his
own investisration.
We decided that this was a proper and appropriate course of action.
We did not malce any effort from then on to determine through inter-
views with contestants what had happened before the investigation
began. Instead, we bent all our energies to see whether we could
develop a security system and a procedure to prevent this thing from
happening in the future.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOVi^S 193
Mr. LiSHMAN. Have you any reason to suspect, Mr. Ervin, that the
same practices are being continued on TV shows today ?
Mr. Er%t:n. I have no reason to suspect it, but I must say that it is
a very difficult problem from the point of view of supervision,
I think most of the testimony here has indicated that the rigging
or the coaching takes place between a dishonest contestant and a dis-
honest producer, two people. You can have the best security system
in the world, and if you have two people who want to be dishonest
and who will conduct their dishonesty somewhere other than directly
in the studio where it can be observed, it is a very difficult thing to
detect.
During the course of this, when we were casting about for addi-
tional measures to make sure that these tilings could not happen on
NBC programs, we felt it would be wise to call in an outside agency
and get their views on it. That led to our retaining Arthur Yomig &
Co., to come in and make an audit of the security procedures of all
of our quiz programs.
They did this beginning in January, and they made a report in
which they had a number of recommendations, but their report comes
back to this one simple point. That is, in the last analysis, it boils
down to the honesty of two people. "\Yliile surprise audits of the
program, while divorcing the people who have knowledge of ques-
tions and answers from the people who are talking to contestants and
lining up contestants for the show can be of some help, there is always
someone connected with the show who really knows what the ques-
tions and answers ai'e going to be. and if there is a contestant with
w^hom he desires to conspire to acliieve a rigging, he can beat the
best system you can debase.
The Chairman. All witnesses who are here may be excused until
10 o'clock tomorrow, at which time, if you would like to go, we will
expect you to return.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Ervin, do you have any knowledge as to whether
NBC has information that "Tic-Tac-Dough," a show now on the air,
has been fixed ?
]Mr. Ervin. We have supplied "Tic-Tac-Dough" kinescopes to the
District Attorney. Last week, in preparing for my testimony, I
talked to the producer of "Tic-Tac-Dough." I had heard that he had
been subpenaed to appear before this progi^am, I mean before this
committee.
I beg your pardon, gentleman.
Mr. LisHMAN. But you have no information ?
Mr. Ervin. His name is Howard Felsher. He said that he had a
subpena to appear here and I said I would like to know from you,
Mr. Felsher, whether or not you have ever given questions or an-
swers to any one contestant on "Tic-Tac-Dough." I asked him to
give me a sworn statement to that effect. He said he could not give
me such a statement.
Upon his refusal to do so, we have discharged him.
That is the only indication that I have other than the fact that we
have turned over kinescopes of "Tic-Tac-Dough" to investigating
j authorities.
Mr. LisHMAN. As I understand it, Mr. Ervin, NBC has severed
its relations with Barry & Enright?
Mr. Ervin. Yes, sir; we have.
194 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Lishjmax. Do you have any Barry & Enright personnel now
retained on your production staff?
Mr. Ervin. When we assumed direct production responsibility
for the Barry & Enright programs, we moved in NBC supervisory
personnel at the top, but maintained for tlie most part the balance of
the personnel who had been working on these programs. I don't
know the number of them, but I would assume 40 or 50 may be em-
ployees, who originally were Barry & Enright employees, now are
still working on the progi^ams as NBC employees.
Mr. LisHMAN, When you severed relations with Barry & Enright,
did Barry & Enright receive any consideration ?
Mr. Ervin. Let me outline the tenns of the settlement for you.
This settlement included the following:
We have 4i/^ years to run on our employment contracts with Barry
& Enright. Each of these contracts guaranteed the artist a minimum
annual salary of $100,000. There was a total possibility then of
$900,000 as of last week.
In addition, Barry & Enright developed certain program properties
after our purchase agreement in May of 1957, which we had been
broadcasting. They also had the 50-percent contingent interest which
I testified to a little while ago under the original purchase agreement.
They transferred to us all of the balance of their rights in all of those
properties.
We paid them a total of $26,000 and mutual releases were ex-
changed.
Mr. LisiiMAN". How mucli did NBC receive each week during the
period that "Twenty-one" was on the air ?
Mr. Erviist. Mr. Lishman, I don't have those figures here. I can
get them and supply them for the record. I take it what you want is
the money we received from Mr. Kletter in time charges and program
charges ?
Mr. LiSHMAisr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Er^t^n. I heard his testimony and the figures he gave you are
substantially in accord with my rough knowledge of the situation. If
you want precise information I will be glad to supply it.
Mr. LisiiMAisr. AVliat were those figures ?
Mr. Er^t^n. He said about $31/2 million a year.
Mr. Lishman. I think we would like to have those figures supplied
for the record, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Ervin. May I suggest tliis, that we get together with your staff
and work out exactly the type of information you want and then we
will be glad to supply it to you.
Tlie Chairman. Yes. I believe Mr. Kletter testified that roughly
$1,250,000 a year went to Barry & Enright for the program and the
awards, and then the other — I think he said around $45,000 a week —
went to NBC.
Mr. Ervtn. Yes, sir. From the May 1957 date when Ave bouo-ht the
■properties the revenues for the program sale also came to us. So from
Mav 1957 on, NBC was the recipient of both the gross program price
and the ffross price for time charges.
The Chairman. You may supply that information later.
Mr. Ervin. Very well, sir.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 195
(The information referred to follows:)
National Broadcasting Co., Inc.,
ISleiv York, N.Y., Novcmher 2, 1959.
Robert W. Lishman, Esq.,
Chief Coiinsel, Special Suhenmmittee on Legislative Ovcrsi</ht of the Committee
on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, House Office Building, Washington,
D.G.
Dear Mr. Lisiiman : This is in reply to your letter of October 16, 1959, in which
you requested certain information for inclusion in the recoi'd of the subcommit-
tee's hearings on television quiz shows. The requested information is as follows :
1. NBC entered into the following agreements with Edv/ard Kletter Asso-
ciates, Inc., Parkson Advertising Agency, Inc., or Pharmaceuticals, Inc. for the
telecasting of "Twenty-one" :
(a) Conti-act for the furnishing of telecasting facilities (program to be fur-
ni.shed by the advertiser) reflected by NBC acceptance letter dated June 26,
1956, and subsequently by facilities contract dated June 19, 1956.
(6) Amendment to the facilities contract reflected by NBC letter dated De-
cember 20, 1956. and subsequently by amendment to the facilities contract dated
January 16, 1957.
(e) Memorandum agreement dated March 18, 1957, covering the furnishing
by NBC of telecasting facilities and program.
(d) Facilities contract dated March 18, 1957, formalizing the furnishing of
facilities under the March 18, 1957, agreement.
(c) Program contract dated June 21, 1957, formalizing the furni.shing of pro-
grams under the March 18, 1957. agreement.
(/) Assignment dated as of March 18, 1957, but executed June 21, 1957, from
Edward Kletter Associates, Inc. and Pharmaceuticals, Inc., transferring to NBC
their interest under the program agreement dated May 28, 1956, between them
and Barry & Enright Productions, Inc.
( g ) Facilities contract dated March 4, 1958.
{h) Letter agreement dated May 26, 1959. from NBC to Pharmaceuticals,
Inc., disposing of contingent payment by NBC to Pharmaceuticals, Inc.. on
account of the latter's interest in "Twenty-one."
2. The first telecast of "Twenty-one" took place on September 12, 1956 ; the
last, on October 16, 1958.
3. The total amount received by NBC from Pharmaceuticals. Inc. for tele-
casts of "Twenty-one" was .$6,274.257 ; out of this amount, substantial sums were
paid by NBC for compensation to affiliated stations, music-performing fees, trans-
mission line charges, program production costs, prize money, and other direct
and indirect costs. Pharmaceuticals. Inc. was the sponsor of the series during
the entire period it was telecast on NBC, being represented by Edward Kletter
Associates, Inc. for the first 42 telecasts and by Parkson Advertising Agency,
Inc. for the remaining 63 telecasts. The fact that there were only 105 programs
over a period of 109 weeks is, of course, due to preemption of the broadcast time
for special programs. Attached is a schedule showing —
(a) Column 1 : The average amount per week paid to NBC for time and facili-
ties charges only, during the period from September 12, 1956, to March 17, 1957.
when Barry & Enright Productions, Inc. owned the program and furnished it
directly to the sponsor. The average charge for time in this period is substan-
tially less than the charge in subsequent periods, due to the fact that the pro-
gram was initially scheduled in the 10:30-11 p.m. period on Wednesday, when
only a small lineup of stations carried the program. After the first 18 telecasts,
the program was moved to the Monday, 9^9 :30 p.m. time period, where it was
carried by a much larger lineup of stations.
(&) Column 2 : The average amount per week paid to NBC for time, facilities,
and program charges during the period from March 18, 1957, to October 5,
1958. Although the sale of the "Tvv'enty-one" property was not consummated
until May 2, 1958. the arrangements for NBC to assume the obligation of fur-
nishing the program to the sponsor were effective March 18, 1957. During this
period Mr. Enright was executive producer and Mr. Freedman was pi-oducer of
the program.
(c) Column 3: The average amount per week paid to NBC for time, facilities,
and program charges during the period from October 6, 1958, to October 16,
1958, the concluding period when Messrs. Enright and Freedman no longer
served in the foregoing capacities.
196
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOV^^S
I believe the figures are self-explanatory ; however, if you desire additional
information, we will be happy to furnish it.
Very truly yours,
Thomas E. Ervin.
"Twenty-one" payments hy sponsor to NBC
Weekly averages for the period-
Sept. 12,
195&-Mar.
17, 1957
(25 shows)
Mar. 18,
1957-Oct.
5, 1958
(78 shows)
Oct. 6, 1958-
Oct. 16, 1958
(2 shows)
Time before agency commission.
Agency commission
$21,759
3,258
$52, 269
7,833
Time after agency commission.
Program charge
Prize money
Miscellaneous facilities charge..
18, 501
3,394
44,436
15,815
10, 000
1,356
Total per week _
Total for period.
21,895
547, 375
71,607
5, 585, 346
$49, 482
7,646
41,836
18,000
10,000
926
70, 762
141,636
Mr. LisHMAN. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Ervin, Mr. Franklin testified that he was
present at a meeting referred to, and I asked you if he was there,
and you said so. As I recall Mr. Franklin's testimony he said that
at that meeting he was asked not to go to the grand jury and tell
the truth. In view of the fact that he said that you were there
Mr. Ervin. Mr. Chairman, I don't think he testified that I was at
that meeting.
The Chairman. That was a subsequent meeting that you were
there ?
Mr. Ervin. As I heard the testimony, that meeting was with non-
NBC people. I don't think any representative of NBC was at that
meeting at all.
The Chairman. Did you have any information whatsoever that
anyone attempted to keep him from going to the grand jury?
]\Ir. Ervin. I never heard that story until today.
The Chairman. What you heard today in that regard with ref-
erence to the advice of his leaving the country and so forth, to which
he testified today, is the first time you have heard it?
Mr. Ervin. It is the first time I have heard that.
The Chairman. Did you ever hear anyone indicate that any wit-
ness or any person material to this whole thing should in any way
refrain from telling the facts ?
Mr. Ervin. No, sir. From the day the district attorney began his
investigation our whole effort was to cooperate fully with him and
see if we could not once and for all find out the truth of what went
on with these programs.
The Chairman. ^Vlien did you first hear that Mr. Snodgrass de-
cided that he would tell about his experiences as a contestant ?
Mr. Ervin. I read those charges m the newspaper in September
1958.
The Chairman. That was approximately a year after you had pur-
chased the program ?
Mr. Ervin.
Yes, sir.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 197
The Chairman. You purchased the program in 1957 ?
Mr. Ervin. May 1957.
The Chairman. What brought about your decision to purchase the
program from Barry & Enright ?
Mr. Ervin. The program, "Twenty-one," had become a successful
program. It was opposite "I Love Lucy" which was a program that
we had a great deal of trouble with since it was so popular. "Twenty-
one" was the first show we ever scheduled opposite "Lucy" that
showed any promise at all. The Pharmaceuticals contract between
Barry & Enright had 13-week cycles in it. Our time contract had,
I think, a 26-week expiration date with Pharmaceuticals. At the
end of that period Pharmaceuticals would have been able to move
the program to any other network. We were interested in retaining
"Twenty-one" as an NBC feature. It was beginning to build. _ We
felt that we wanted it as an NBC program. We wanted to keep it on
NBC. The only way we could do that was to buy the program.
The Chairman. Wlien was the first time that you heard about the
possibility of some publicity regarding the rigging of these shows?
Mr. Ervin. The first time I heard about that was in September
1957.
The Chairman. Was that after you had purchased the show ?
Mr. Ervin. It was after we had purchased the sihow.
The Chairm^vn. Mr. Barry and Mr. Enright continued in the pro-
duction after you purchased the show until recently, is that right ?
Mr. Ervin. That is right. When we purchased the show, we auto-
matically obtained the right to produce the progimm ourselves. How-
ever, simultaneously with the purchase agreement, we entered into a
separate production agi'eement with Barry and Enright as individuals
under which they continued to produce the show for us at cost. We
paid them the cost of producing, nothing more.
The Chairman. As I understand it, you, yourself, as general attor-
ney for NBC, handled this matter when it was brought to the atten-
tion of your company.
Mr. Ervin. That is right.
The Chairman. Did it not occur, Mr. Ervin, that it would be help-
ful to clarify it if you or someone for you had gone and talked to the
contestants ?
Mr. Ervin. At the time that did not occur to me, sir.
The Chairman. When did that first occur to you that it would be
helpful to you?
Mr. Ervin. After the Snodgrass charges were made public, I felt
that the time had come for us to talk to contestants. That was after
the district attorney's investigation had begun. I have already testi-
fied as to what we did at that point.
The Chairman. It seems rather an unusual situation that a person
who is a contestant, and where there was money involved, as it \vas,
and there were more of them, to have not gone to the contestant him-
self and made some inquiry.
Mr. Ervin. Sir, I can only say that looking at it at the time that I
did, without the benefit of all of the disclosures that have been made
here, with the representation of a man in whom we had complete con-
fidence at that time, that Mr. Stempel had made charges and had
later withdrawn them in writing, and admitted that they were false,
had apologized for making them
198 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
The Chairman. Did Mr. Stempel si^i a statement that he withdrew
the charjxes ?
Mr. Em^N. Yes, he did.
The Chairman. Who has that statement?
Mr. Ervin. The district attorney probably has.
Mr. McKay. If I may address the chairman, the statement as
well as the tape recordino; was turned over in my presence to the
district attorney's office in New York County. I believe it was marked
as an exhibit later on. That was the meetino; I was present at that
Mr. Ervin referred to.
The Chairman. Yes, I have heard something about that tape re-
cording, too. We are not dealing with tape recording aromid here.
We have had our experiences in that matter. I have also heard in
connection with that tape recording there is some question as to the
method in which that was obtained, too. But that is a matter for
the New York grand jury. You did have a statement that Mr. Stempel
signed ?
Mr. McKay. It was turned over by, I believe, Mr. Enright in my
presence when he was there with his counsel and Mr. Franklin.
The Chairman. Mr. Ervin, did it ever occur to you to investigate
the circumstances under which that statement was obtained?
Mr. Ervin. No, sir, I heard Mr. Enright's description of how it
was obtained, and what was in it, and I believed him.
The Chairman. Mr. Stempel testified here that there were cer-
tain assurances given to him about his future and what he might have
been able to have in the way of remuneration for employment in the
future. You had no such information yourself that such assurances
were given?
Mr. Ervin. I believe Mr. Enright in his discussion with me men-
tioned the fact that Mr. Stempel really wanted a job.
The Chairman. At that time?
Mr. Ervin. That is right.
The Chairman. Mr. Mack, do you have any questions?
Mr. Mack. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Was Mr. Franklin ever employed by NBC or was his public rela-
tions firm employed by NBC ?
Mr. Ervin. No, sir.
Mr. Mack. NBC did send him a check for certain services which
he rendered?
Mr. Ervin. After hearing his testimony I have checked by tele-
phone with New York. No checks drawn by the National Broadcast-
ing Co. as payor have ever been delivered to Mr. Franklin. Mr.
Franklin's publicity firm had an arrangement with one of the Barry
& Enright programs under which he received a weekh" check from a
partnership entitled "Production Services," which was a Barry &
Enright partnership. When in October 1958 we took over responsi-
bility for the production of the Bariy & Enright programs, Produc-
tion Services checks continued to go to Mr. Franklin's firm until
about December ]95(S when that program itself went off the air. I
think that is what he was referring to.
Mr. Mack. During that short period he was receiving checks
from
Mr. ER\^N. From a partnership which we were operating under
our takeover agreement with Barry & Enright; yes, sir.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 199
Mr. Mack. What date was he dropped from the payroll, so to speak,
or do you have that information?
Mr. Ervin. As I understand the information, and I will check it
more thoroughly when I get back to New York and supplement it
if necessary, the arrangement was for services in comiection with
the program which went off the air in December 1958. The arrange-
ment terminated when the program went off the air.
Mr. Mack. Was that also the time that he appeared before the
grand jury?
Mr. Ervin. I do not know when he appeared before the grand jury.
Mr. Mack. He indicated that he would be dropped at the time he
appeared before the grand jury. Have you heard tliat statement?
Mr. Ervin. I heard his testimony. I don't recall the dates he gave.
Mr. Mack. You had nothing to do with the termination date?
Mr. Ervin. Nothing at all. I didn't know these checks had been
going to him until I learned about it by telephone todaj^
Mr. Mack. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Springer.
Mr. SprinCxEr. Mr. Ervin, in the statement which you have issued
today you said :
When charges against the program, "Twenty-one," were first made public last
fall, its producers, Barry & Enright, gave NBC written and verbal assurance that
these charges were without foundation. Nevertheless, NBC took prompt action
to relieve Barry & Enright of any control over these progi-ams pending the out-
come of the investigation. Direct production responsibility of all Barry &
Enright programs on NBC was thereafter assumed by the network.
When these charges were made the year before, in August 1957, you
were in control of the program, were you not?
Mr. Ervin. We owned the program. Barry & Enright were still
producing it.
Mr. Springer. You did not make anj^ effort at that time to relieve
Barry & Enright of control over the production, did you?
Mr. Ervin. We did not.
Mr. Springer. However, when it came out in the newspapers a
year later, then, for the first time, you made an effort to relieve them
of the production of the show, is that true?
Mr. Ervin. On the timing that is true. The distinction in my
mind is the Snodgrass charges were the ones which led to the action.
Mr. Springer. I am now reading from vour release of August 28,
1958 :
The charges made by Herbert Stempel against the quiz show, "Twenty-one,"
first came to our attention over a year ago. At that time, we made an investiga-
tion and found them to be utterly baseless and untrue.
The extent of your investigation in August 1958 was to accept the
word of Barry & Enright in what they said about Herb Stempel.
Was not that the extent of your investigation ?
Mr. Ervin. Backed up by the written statement and the tape record-
ing which Mr. Enright had.
Mr. Springer, ^^Hien did you first see these statements and these
recordings ?
Mr. Ervin. I think not until 1958. I did not see them in 1957.
They were described to me. I was told they were available for my
inspection. I did not look at them at that time.
200 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Springer. Do you feel, Mr. Ervin, that an orfjanization as laro;e
as NBC has a duty to its listeners to investit^ate programs of this type
to determine whether or not they are honest ?
Mr. Ervin. Certiainly.
Mr. Springer. Would you have the same duty to investigate em-
ployees of your own company with reference to the same matter ?
Mr. Ervin. Certainly.
Mr. Springer. And that is true today as it was a year ago in 1958 ?
Mr. Ervin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. Is Howard Felsher a member of your organization
now?
Mr. Ervin. I testified a little while ago that Howard Felsher's em-
ployment was terminated last week.
Mr. Springer. How long ago was "Tic-Tac-Dough" in operation?
Mr. Ervin. "Tic-Tac-Dough" is still being broadcast.
Mr. Springer. Was information concerning "Tic-Tac-Dough" pre-
sented to the New York gi^and jury ?
Mr. Ervtn. We supplied information with respect to some "Tic-
Tac-Dough" programs to the district attorney.
Mr. Springer. Was Howard Felsher responsible for producing that
program ?
Mr. Ervin. He was the producer of the program.
Mr. Springer. However, is it not a fact that you only came forward
to relieve this man of his duties on the evidence adduced by this in-
vestigation ?
Mr. Ervtn. I had no reason to suspect Mr. Felsher. I heard he was
subpenaed and asked him to give me an affidavit. He refused to give
me an affidavit.
Mr. Springer. Did you ask him for an affidavit before that time?
Mr. Ervin. I did not.
Mr. Springer. Do you believe that the public would be warranted
in concluding, as a result of the retention of Mr. Felsher on the pay-
roll until the eve of this investigation, that you had not conducted a
very thorough investigation of your employees ?
Mr. Ervin. I would hope that they would not draw that conclusion.
Mr. Springer. I am not attempting to draw any myself, but that
was very evident to us when we went into this on Sunday with the
staff. Here was a man who disappeared from the rolls only a few
days ago after he was subpenaed to testify before this committee.
Mr. Ervtn. When we took over production of "Tic-Tac-Dough"
we assigned an NBC producer to supervise Mr. Felsher in the work
with him.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Ervin, if Mr. Felsher had given you an affidavit
saying that he was not guilty of any of this fixing on "Tic-Tac-
Dough," would you have retained him on your payroll ?
Mr. Ervtn. We would have.
Mr. Springer. Would you have made any further investigation to
determine whether or not Mr. Felsher's affidavit was in fact true?
Mr. Ervin. We would have awaited the outcome of the hearings,
since he was under subpena, to see what testimony developed, and we
would try to find additional information from the district attorney.
Mr. Springer. Would you have made any independent investiga-
tion of contestants to determine whether or not Mr. Felsher's affidavit
was true ?
INVESTIGATIOX OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 201
Mr. Ervin. We ayouIcI have j^roceeded to that if the answer had not
come out of either of the two pubJic investigations.
Mr. Springer. You would have proceeded to make a separate in-
vestigation to determine whether or not Mr. Felsher's affidavit was
true 'i
Mr. Ervin. If the j^ublic investigations did not provide the answer.
Mr. Springer. But you would have waited until after the public
investigation before conducting an investigation of j^our own ?
Mr. Ervin. That is right.
Mr. Springer. You do not feel that there is any duty incumbent
upon you as a national organization, broadcasting over airwaves
granted to you by the Government, independently to make your own
investigation to determine whether your employees are reliable ?
Mr. Ervin. We felt that we had provided adequate security meas-
ures to keep any rigging from taking place in the future. As to what
happened in the past, we would like to find out what happened in the
past. We were waiting until the investigations gave us the answer.
If they did not then we would engage upon our own.
Mr. Springer. It meant that a period of more than 1 year — from
August 1958 until October 1959 — elapsed before you asked Mr.
Felsher for an affidavit with reference to whether he was guilty of
any practices of fixing on "Tic-Tac-Dough." Am I correct?
Mr. Ervin. Not at all. When we took over production of "Tic-Tac-
Dough," an NBC executive named Bob Aaron was assigned to super-
vise the show. He worked closely w4th Mr. Felsher. He made spot
checks of the program. On a number of occasions, he would go into
the studio and shift the order of the questions before air time as a
check to make sure that the order of the cards had not been pre-
arranged before the program.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Ervin, do you remember when Mr. Felsher was
subpenaed by the New York gi^and jury ?
Mr. Ervin. I did not know he had been subpenaed.
Mr. Springer. You didn't know that he had been subpenaed ?
Mr. Ervin. I don't believe I did.
Mr. Springer. Did you know that he testified ?
Mr. ER^^:N. I don't know that he did.
Mr. Springer. Are you positive that you have no knowledge that
Mr. Felsher testified before the grand jury ?
Mr. Ervin. The grand jury minutes have not been available to
us at all.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Felsher did not reveal to you that he testified
before the grand j ury .
Mr. Ervin. He did not.
Mr. Springer. Did he ever reveal to you that he had been sub-
penaed by the grand jury ?
Mr. Ervin. He did not.
]Mr. Springer. When did you first find out that he was subpenaed
to appear before this committee?
Mr. Er\t[n. Last week.
Mr. Springer. How did you get that information ?
Mr. Ervin. Well, there were a lot of sources of information last
week as to who had subpenas and I am not quite sure where this
one came from. It may be from another person in the staff of NBC.
202 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
It may have been from the committee staff. I called him in and
asked him if he had been subpenaed. He did not volunteer the in-
formation to me. He said he had been.
Mr. Springek. Do you feel today, Mr. Ervin, as e:eneral attorney
for NBC, that there is a duty to investigate other employees that may
be on NBC's payroll with reference to whether or not they engaged
in practices similar to this in the past?
Mr. Ervin. I think our primary duty is to take every step that we
can to see that the programs we are now broadcasting do not contain
any rigging.
Mr. Springer. That was not my question. Would you read the
question back, Mr. Reporter.
(Question read by the reporter.)
]Mr. Ervin. Yes, if the results of this investigation don't completely
answer the problem for us.
Mr. Springer. You do not believe there has been any duty up imtil
now to make such an investigation independently at NBC?
Mr. Ervin. As I have said before, we have been awaiting results
of these investigations.
Mr. Springer. J\Iay I say that a year ago there was no contempla-
tion of any investigation by this committee.
Mr. Ervin. No, but the district attorney was investigating, sir.
Mr. Springer. Would you say because there were no indictments
returned by the grand jury in New York that there was no duty to
investigate your own employees to determine whether or not they
had violated a public confidence by rigging these programs ?
Mr. ER^^N. No. Actually there was one indictment returned.
Mr. Springer. That was for perjurv.
Mr. Ervin. That is right.
Mr. Springer. He was not your employee.
Mr. Er\t:n. No, he was not.
Mr. Springer. Did you see the kinescope here yesterday? Were
you here yesterday ?
Mr. Ervin. I was not, sir.
Mr. Springer. Have you seen the kinescope of the show on which
Mr. Van Doren and Mr. Stempel ap])eared ?
Mr. Ervin. I have not seen that kinescope.
Mr. Springer. You have not had a chance to review the testimony
given by Mr. Stempel and compare it with what happened on the
kinescope?
Mr. Ervin. I have read the transcript.
Mr. Springer. Did you also read the testimony of other witnesses
before this subcommittee that they were given questions and answers
prior to appearing on the Drogram ?
Mr. Ervin. I read Mr. Siiodgrass' testimony.
Mr. Springer. Ts it your opinion on the basis of the kinescope and
the testimony rendered yesterday, that IVIr. Van Doren must have been
given the questions and answers in advance and that he has not told
the truth ?
Mr. Ervin. Mr. Van Doren has stated that he had not been given
the questions and answers.
Mr. Springer. j\Iv point in askintr all of this is not Avha^^ Mr. Van]
Doren said or what Mr. Felsher said. Have you made an investiga-j
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 203
lion to determine whetlier or not the statements Mr. Van Doren made
are reliable and truthful?
;Mr. Ervin. "We have made no investigation of Mr. Van Doren other
than to ask him for his statement as to whether or not he received
answers.
Mr. Springer. Now, my question is, Do you intend to make any
other investigation to determine whether or not what he has said is
in fact truthful ?
Mr. Ervin. We have none in prospect now, sir.
Mr. Springer. Have you ever asked him whether or not he received
any answers ?
Mr. Ervin. He volunteered the statement on one of our programs
that he had never received answers. I have never asked him directly.
Mr. Sppjnger. Who has asked him directly in your organization?
Mr. Er\t:n. I don't know that NBC asked him, becanse before any-
bodv asked him, he made a statement that he had not.
Mr. Springer. Has anybody asked him if he received any ques-
tions ?
Mr. Ervin. He said he had not received questions or answers, as I
recall.
Mr. Springer. Have you asked Mr. Van Doren for an affidavit simi-
lar to that requested of IMr. Felsher ?
Mr. Er\t^n. No : we have not.
Mr. Springer. Do you feel, in view of the testimony given here,
that it is necessary for NBC to make any independent investigation
on its own and determine whether or not what Van Doren says is true?
Mr. Ervin. Sir, I am a little puzzled how we could make an inves-
tigation without the powers that the public investigating bodies have.
Mr. Springer. Certainly you should show him this kinescope
wherein thev tied once at 17 and twice at 21.
Mr. Ervin. We could do that.
Mr. Springer. Three ties in a row. Most imnsual, because each one
independently had to select just the right numbers in order to arrive
at a tie. I believe yon will find that the chances of that happening
are one in a good many thousand if you figure it out mathematically.
That is the only conclusion I can come to, Mr. Ervin, and if that is not
sufficient for NBC to make an investigation of some kind, I don't
know what is.
Mr. Ervin. As I understand he has sent a telegram to the commit-
tee. It would be our hope he would testify here so we could get the
benefit of this.
Mr. Springer. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I would like to suggest to you, Mr. Ervin, that it
might be helpful, too, for you and your organization to run a kine-
scope of that showing.
Mr. Er\'In. Very well, sir.
The Chairman. And at the same time compare it with the testimony
that was given to this committee on it and then see how you can recon-
cile some of the facts.
Mr. Rogers?
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Ervin. with relation to the affidavits that you took,
have you gotten affidavits from all the other employees associated with
these shows that were under suspicion?
Mr. ER^^:N. No, sir.
204 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Rogers. How many affidavits have you gotten?
Mr. Ervin. Nine.
Mr. Rogers. Why did you not get affidavits from the others?
Mr. Ervin. The affidavits were obtained as a result of the specific
disclosures with respect to the Snodgrass charges. We asked for af-
fidavits from anyone in the organization who had any contact with
Mr. Snodgrass.
Mr. Rogers. You asked for specific affidavits from the individuals.
You did not ask the group to furnish affidavits if they felt like doing
so?
Mr. Ervin. We asked counsel for Barry & P^nright to determine
who in the organization had any contact with Mr. Snodgrass in any
way and for all of those people who had contact m any way to give
us affidavits.
Mr. Rogers. I believe 3'^ou said you had not asked Mr. Van Doren
specifically for a statement on that, but you were relying on what
he had said on the air.
Mr. Ervin. That is right, sir.
Mr. Rogers. Is he an employee of NBC ?
Mr. Ervin. He is under contract to NBC.
Mr. Rogers. He is under contract ^
Mr. Ervin. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. You do not consider that as an employee?
Mr. Ervin. I am not certain whether he is in an employee status
or independent contractor status but he performs on programs. Our
contract with him has until next year sometime to run.
Mr. Rogers. But no attemj^t has been made to obtain an affidavit
from him ?
Mr. Ervin. No.
Mr. Rogers. I assume that in New York you do have a false swear-
ing statute, Mr. Ervin, and the difi^erence between obtaining a man's
statement, and a man's signing an affidavit that was false, is one simply
of subjecting him to prosecution of the false swearing statute and
the other would not.
Mr. Ervin. I am sorry. I don't know the answer to that.
Mr. Rogers. Why would you want to get an affidavit ? Wliat good
would an affidavit do if you could not prosecute the man if he told a
falsehood ?
Mr. Ervin. I think the solemnit}^ of the oath and the swearing to
it is always a much more effective thing to obtain vs^here there is a
question of truthfulness arising.
Mr. Rogers. That is one of the reasons why one is subject to prosecu-
tion and the other is not, as you well know, I am sure. But you did
not undertake to talk to any of the other employees except that you
let Barry & Enright obtain affidavits from them; is that correct?
Mr. Ervin. No. We talked to a great many of the employees as to
security measures on the progi'am. On statements that "I have never
given questions or answers to contestants," that is correct.
Mr. RoGFJis. Did any person in the organization receive a subpena
to appear before the grand juiy who was not asked to give an affidavit?
Mr. Ervin. Any person at NBC ?
Mr. Rogers. Or connected with these programs.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 205
Mr. Ekvin. I am not aware of exactly who received siibpenas to ap-
pear before the grand jury. Some people have received subpenas and
have notified us about them.
Mr. Rogers. Let me ask you this: Did you try to obtain an affidavit
from every person who was subpenaed that you knew about?
Mr. Ervus". I asked several other producers of programs for af-
fidavits, but they had not received subpenas.
Mr. Rogers. I am not talking about that. There were several peo-
ple subpenaed by the New York grand jury concerning this quiz in-
vestigation, were there not ?
Mr. Ervin, Yes, there were.
Mr. Rogers. Associated with the programs that NBC was showing.
Did you obtain an affidavit from all of the people who were to ap-
pear before the grand jury or attempt to get an affidavit?
Mr. Ervin. In the first place, as I said before, I do not know who
the persons were in every case.
Mr. Rogers. I mean the ones you do know that you attempted to get
an affidavit.
Mr. Ervin. No NBC employee received a subpena.
Mr. Rogers. You mean by that, that none of the employees of Barry
& Enright associated with these programs got a subpena ?
Mr. Ervin. No, I think there were people associated with those pro-
grams that got subpenas.
Mr. Rogers. Wlio was this man that you discharged employed by ?
Mr. Ervin. Howard Felsher was employed originally by Barry &
Enright.
Mr. Rogers. By Barry & Enright?
Mr. Erven. That's right, as of last week.
Mr. Rogers. As a matter of fact, at the time the grand jury investi-
gation was going on, Mr. Ervin, NBC was operating this Barry & En-
right operation, were they not ?
Mr. Erven. That is true.
Mr. Rogers. Although you say there were no employees of NBC
directly, they were in the same position, so to speak, as Mr. Franklin
was. He was employed by one of the corporations in this group.
Mr. Ervin. That is so, but the people in that position did not report
to us whether or not they had received subpenas.
Mr. Rogers. Have you fired anybody else for not giving an affidavit
besides Mr. Felsher ?
Mr. Ervin. No, I don't believe so.
Mr. Rogers. Have you received an affidavit from eveiyone you have
asked ?
Mr. Erven. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. Now, one other question. You stated that you did not
understand that Mr. Franklin's testimony was to the effect that you
were present when a discussion was had about everybody telling a lie
but Mr. Franklin and then prosecuting him for perjury.
Mr. Ervin. That is correct.
Mr. Rogers. If Mr. Franklin testified that you were present in one
of those meetings, was that true or false ?
Mr. Ervin. That was false.
Mr. Rogers If he testified that there were other NBC people at a
meeting when that occurred, would you say that was tiiie or false ?
52294— 60— pt. 1 14
206 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Ervin. I would have to have the identity of the NBC persons
in question. I would be very much surprised if any NBC person was
present.
Mr. EoGERs. Mr. Eiges and Mr. Moore ?
Mr. Ervin. They are NBC employees. They have never reported
to me that a statement of that type was made by Mr. Franklin in a
meeting which they attended.
Mr. RocxERS. You say they never reported to you. Do you know of
any meeting where any such transaction took place ?
^Ir. Er\t[N". I know of no such meeting.
Mr. Rogers. Have you ever, at any time, attended a meeting where
a suggestion was made that people in that meeting, connected with
this investigation, tell the grand jury or any other official body a story
that was not the truth ?
Mr. Ervin. No, sir.
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Ervin, how many meetings had you been to that
were attended by yourself and Mr. Franklin ?
Mr. Ervin. One.
Mr. Rogers. Where was that held ?
Mr. Ervin. Mr. Bilby's office.
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Bilby, is he an attorney ?
Mr. Ervin. He is the vice president in charge of public relations
for NBC.
Mr. Rogers. That is the only meeting you attended ?
Mr. Ervin. The only meeting that I attended that Mr. Franklin
attended.
Mr. Rogers. Do you know any other meetings where NBC personnel
were present concerning this particular problem and at which Mr.
Franklin was also present ?
Mr. Ervin. I know of two others.
Mr. Rogers. Where were they held ?
Mr. Ervin. I do not know where the first one was held but that is
the meeting at which Mr. Eiges and Mr. Moore were present. The
second is a meeting in the district attorney's office at which Mr, McKay
was present and those are the only meetings I know of.
Mr. Rogers. That is all, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
The Chairman. Mr. Derounian ?
Mr. Derounian. Mr. Ervin, is it your testimony that at the time
you had Mr. Enright in your office, he had the statements and re-
cordings of Stempel's confessions, so to speak?
Mr. Ervin. He did not have them with him. He described them in
great detail. He said they were locked in his safe in his office and
were available to me to look at any time I wanted to.
Mr. Derounian. Did you ask to hear them ?
Mr. Ervin. I did not at that time. I planned to hear them later.
Mr. Derounian. But you never did hear them, did you?
Mr. ER\r[N. No.
Mr. Derounian. It turned out to be a hoax, did it not ?
INIr. Ervin. No. He had them. His description was accurate. I
have not heard it. I have read the transcript of the tape recording.
I have read the written statement. Tliey are, as I recall the meeting,
accurately described.
Mr. Derounian. You took Mr. Enright's word for it that these
things were on the up and up. You seem to have fallen into a pat-
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 207
tern of taking a person's word on things that should arouse your in-
terest as an experienced lawyer. I would suggest that you have been
quite naive in a few of these instances, without slamming your profes-
sional reputation. Do you agree that is what happened ?
Mr, Ervin. I am sorry you feel that way, sir. I think my con-
fidence in Mr. Enright was misplaced.
Mr. Deeoujs'ian. It certainly was. That is the reason I go back
to the point. Do you believe now that, as a general rule, the con-
testants whose preparation was under the direction of Mr. Enright
may have been fixed ^ Have you come to that conclusion in your
own mind, or do you still think that most of them were honest?
Mr. Ervin. I don't know what to think about most of them. From
the testimony I have seen here it seems to me that certainly the
charges were true as to some of them.
Mr. Derounlvn. What kind of contract does Mr. Van Doren have
with the National Broadcasting Co.?
Mr. Er\t:n. He has a contract that calls for appearances at our
request on programs, a talent contract, that has until, I think, next
August to run.
Mr. Derouxiax. What is your financial liability ?
Mr. Ervin. $50,000 a year.
Mr. Derouniax. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Flynt?
Mr. Fltnt. Veiy briefly, I hope, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Ervin, you purchased "Twenty-one'' in May of 1957, is that
correct ?
Mr. Er\t:n. That is correct.
Mr. Flynt. Approximately $2 million.
Mr. Ervin. Approximately $2.2 million.
Mr. Fltnt. What price was reported in the daily or trade press?
Mr. Ervin. I have seen various prices.
Mr. Fltnt. You have seen the figure $4 million?
Mr. Ervin. Yes, I have.
Mr. Fltnt. Is that the figure that was commonly reported in the
trnde press?
Mr. Ervin. I have seen stories quoting the $4 million figure.
Mr. Fltnt. Did NBC make any effort to correct that or just let
it ride?
Mr. Ervin. No, we normally do not release evidence at all as to the
price of the contract and we do not admit or deny the stories that
purpose to be accurate on the subject.
Mr. Fltnt, Do you know who instructed Mr, Franklin to report
the sale price as $4 million?
Mr, Ervin. I don't know that anybody instructed him other than
his testimony today.
Mr. Fltnt. AVhen did you find out that Mr. Felsher had been
sub]:)enaed by the New York County grand jury?
Mr, Ervin, One day last week,
Mr, Fltnt. Yihen did :\rr. McKay find it out ?
Mr. McKat. Sir, I didn't find it out. Mr. Ervin just advised me
today of that fact.
Mr. Fltnt. When did 3^ou find out that certain records and kiiie-
scopes and other personnel connected with "Tic-Tac-Dough" had
been subpenaed by the grand jury?
208 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Ervin. By the grand jury? Sometime in the fall of 1958.
Mr. Flynt. Was there any reason that you did not think that Mr.
Felsher — was he producer of that program?
Mr. Ervin. He was the producer of the program.
Mr. Flynt. Did you believe that everybody would be subpenaed
except the producer?
Mr. Ervin. I had no belief about who was being subpenaed.
Mr. Flynt. Did you ask him if he had been subpenaed?
Mr, Ervin. I did not.
Mr. Flynt. Did you make any investigation to determine at that
time whether or not anything was wrong with this "Tic-Tac-Dough"
program ?
Mr. Ervin. We had taken over production responsibility of the pro-
gram at that time and had NBC personnel supervising Mr. Felsher
and the others.
Mr. Flynt. Who in the NBC organization is charged with the re-
sponsibility of making investigations of reports of alleged irregulari-
ties ?
Mr. Ervin. I think it would depend upon what the report was.
Mr. Flynt. A report that a quiz program was framed.
Mr. Ervin. That would be me, sir.
Mr. Flynt. When were you first advised that a charge had been
made that "Twenty-one" was crooked ?
Mr. Ervin. I have testified that this Stempel information came to
me in September 1957.
Mr. Flynt. In 1957?
Mr. Ervin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flynt. You say you never asked Mr. Stempel whether it was
true or false ?
Mr. Ervin. No, sir.
Mr. Flynt. Did you ever attempt to verify what purported to be
Mr. Stempel's signature on a written statement ?
Mr. Ervin. No, sir.
Mr. Flynt. Your investigation consisted of asking and accepting
at face value the word of people against whom that charge had been
leveled ?
Mr. Ervin. Plus the evidence that they had.
Mr. Flynt. If a grand jury or district attorney or committee such
as this were to confine its questioning to persons whom charges had
been leveled against, would you consider that to be a fair and im-
partial investigation ?
Mr. Ervin. I would not.
Mr. Flynt. Did you so consider your investigation to be a fair and
impartial investigation ?
Mr. Ervin. I did not believe that an investigation beyond what I
learned was required.
Mr. Flynt. Did Mr. Enriglit tell you that you couldn't put any
confidence in what Mr. Stempel might say because he had been under
psychiatric care ?
Mr. Ervin. He told me that was one of the disturbing factors in
the situation.
Mr. Flynt. Did he tell you that he was the man who sent him to a
psychiatrist ?
Mr. Ervin. He told me.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 209
Mr. Fltnt. Did you sort of suspect maybe that was in an effort to
discredit Mr. Stempel ?
Mr. Ervin". Not at the time. He told me he had sent him to a dif-
ferent psychiatrist. Mr. Stempel had his own.
Mr. Fltnt. Did you question tlie reliability of either Mr. Enright
or anyone else when the press reports carrying the sale price of
"Twenty-one" netted twice the actual figure?
Mr. Ervin. No, I don't think I did anything about those stories.
Mr. Flynt. Did you ever watch "Twenty-one" ?
Mr. Ervin. Yes, I watched "Twenty-one."
Mr. Fltnt. Have you ever watched the number of questions that
sometimes become necessary to build up to a level of about 21, when
a man answers questions on the subject of women's fashions, where
they select a low point question such as 3 and 4 ?
Have you ever watched any of those ?
Mr. Ervin. I don't recall any show where they picked the low
point questions.
Mr. Flynt. Then I would be tempted to renew the suggestion made
a while ago that such a viewing be participated in, because in one of
them there was a series of some three or four, maybe five questions
of low point value that resulted in a tie score or something like 18
to 19.
By breaking that down it looks like it is about 11 to the fifth or
sixth power, which would seem to be that the mathematical odds on
it were almost astronomical, something like 129,000 to 1.
I wonder if that caused you to susj^ect that this thing might not
be exactly a bona fide contest as it was reported to be ?
Mr. Ervin. No. Nothing I saw while watching the "Twenty-one"
program on the screen at home ever indicated to me that it was not
what it completely purported to be.
Mr. Flynt. Did you notice anything about the budget arrangement
between Barry & Enright and the sponsors ?
Mr. Ervin. When the sponsor's contract was assigned to NBC we,
of course, saw the contract.
Mr. Flynt. Did you recognize immediately that was a controlled
budget?
Mr. Ervin. No. It didn't seem to me to be a controlled budget.
It was an arrangement for prize money at a certain level.
Mr. Flynt. There was a limit on it.
Mr. ER^^N. The sponsor paid $10,000 a week. If the prize money
went over it was the responsibility of the producer and after we
bought the program it was our responsibility.
Mr. Flynt. I believe you told !^Ir. Eogers you had never requested
an affidavit from Mr. Van Doren.
Mr. ER\^N. That is right.
Mr. Flynt. I have no more questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Ervin, thank you very much.
Mr. Ervin. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the committee staying late
to hear me tonight.
The Chairman. The committee will stand recessed until 10 o'clock
in the morning. However, the committee is called into executive
session in the committer room at 8 o'clock.
("Wliereupon, at 7 :30 p.m., the open hearing in the above-entitled
matter was recessed, to be reconvened at 10 a.m., on the following day.)
210 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
The special subcommittee met at 8 :30 p.m., in room 1334, New House
Office Building, Hon. Oren Harris (chairman) presiding, a quorum
being present.
(The testimony taken at this executive session was released by the
subcommittee by vote taken November 3, 1959.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
This is an executive session in connection with public hearings on
the quiz program "Twenty-one." I might advise that the committee
has decided to meet in executive session under the provisions of rule
XI, 26 (m) of the House of Representatives, which provides that if
the committee determines that evidence or testimony at an investiga-
tive hearing may tend to defame, degrade, or incriminate any person,
it shall, one, receive such evidence or testimony in executive session ;
two, afford such person an opportunity voluntarily to appear as a
witness ; and three, receive and dispose of requests from such person
to subpena additional witnesses.
We have met, then, this evening in executive session to hear, under
the provisions of the rules, Mr. Albert Freedman, associate producer
of the show, and Mr. Dan Enright, producer of the show.
Mr. Freedman, will you come around ?
First, will you be sworn, please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give to this committee
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You may have a seat, if you desire, Mr. Freedman.
First, will you state your full name to the committee for the record ?
TESTIMONY OF ALBERT FREEDMAN; ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, CHARLES MURPHY
Mr. Freedman. It is Albert Freedman, F-r-e-e-d-m-a-n.
Mr. Murphy. I am Charles Murphy.
The Chairman. Let the record show, also, that Mr. Charles Mur-
phy — what is your address, Mr. Murphv ?
Mr. Murphy. 425 13th Street NW.,^ Washington, D.C.
The Chairman (continuing) , Is appearing as counsel to Mr. Freed-
man and Mr. Enright, to advise them, under the rules of the House,
of their constitutional rights.
Mr. Freedman, as associate producer of "Twenty-one," is the first
witness, and Mr. Freedman, I might say, is appearing here as a
voluntary witness, meaning, of course, that he is not subpenaed to
appear.
Mr. Freedman, some time ago, took as his residence Mexico City.
And in view of the investigation of the quiz shows which this com-
mittee now has under consideration, has voluntarily come back to
the United States and appeared here, requesting that he be heard in
executive session under the i-ules of the House which I have just
referred to.
Mr. Freedman, as I understand, you nre here to testify as to the facts
of which you have knowledge in consideration of the production of
"Twenty-one," a television show, and that you are to testify with rela-
tion to witnesses wdio have appeared and are to appear at these hear-
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 211
ings who were contestants in connection witli the (juiz show '"Twenty-
one."
Now, with that understandino;, do you have any further statement
that 3^ou wish to make at this point ?
Mr. Fkeedman. I think only one correction, sir. My title is pro-
ducer of the show, not assistant producer.
The Chairman. Very well. Let the record show what your oflicial
position is.
Now, you, then, have been associated with Barry & Enright?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
The CiiAiRMAisr. Barry & Enright, the producers of the show ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And your position with them is what, or has been
what?
Mr. Freedman. My last position with production services was as
producer of "Twenty-one."
The Chairman. Now, with that statement, Mr. Lishman, you may
proceed to question Mr. Freedman.
Mr. Lishman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I think the record should also show that in this
executive session those who are present are members of the com-
mittee, staff members, and others, who are scheduled to appear during
this executive session.
Mr. Lishman ?
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Freedman, when did you first become associated
with the finn of Barry & Enright ?
The Chairman. I am going to have to ask both you, Mr. Lishman,
and Mr. Freedman, to raise your voices, so that we can all hear.
Mr. Lishman. When did you first become associated with the firm
of Barry & Enright?
Mr. Freedman. Approximately the first of 1955. In January, I
would say, of 1955.
Mr. Lishman. And for how long were you associated with that
firm ?
Mr. Freedman. LTntil the end of September 1058.
Mr. Lishman. Did you, during your association with that firm, be-
come the assistant producer of the television quiz show "Twenty-one"?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, I became the producer of the show.
Mr. Lishman. The producer. When did that occur?
]\rr. Freedman. Some time in November of 1956.
Mr. Lishman. How long had the show been on the air up to that
time ?
Mr. Freedman. The show started — I am not quite sure when it
started, but I think it was in September of 1956.
Mr. Lishman. Prior to becoming producer of "Twenty-one,'" had
you been a producer or assistant producer of other quiz shows?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir, prior to "Twenty-one," I was the producer
of "Tic-Tac-Dough" on NBC.
Mr. Lishman. Any other?
Mr. Freedman. Well, prior to that, I was the associate producer of
"Life Begins at 80" and "Juvenile Jury."
Mr. Lishman. Did you work on the show "Big Enterprise"?
Mr. Freedman. Yes; but I was a writei-, you might say a continuity
writer, on that show.
212 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
]Mr. LisHMAN. ]Mr. Freedmaii, while you were producer of the tele-
vision quiz show "Twenty-one," did you reveal to any contestant on
that show prior to their appearance the questions and answers which
were to be propounded during the show itself ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you furnish in advance the questions and an-
swers that were to be propounded to IVIr. Snodgrass ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. On each time that he appeared as a contestant?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Similarly with the contestant Mr. Jackman, did you
in advance of his appearance on the show furnish him with questions
and answers ?
Mr. Freedman. No. No, I did not.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you know who did furnish him with such as-
sistance ?
Mr. Freedman. Now I do, yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And who was that ?
Mr. Freedman. Mr. Enright.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you know that at the time ?
Mr. Freedman. No, sir. I was not on "Twenty-one" at the time.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you ever furnish assistance to the contestant
Stempel ?
Mr. Freedman. No, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you know that Mr. Enright had furnished such
assistance to Mr. Stempel in advance of the program showing?
Mr. Freedman. Well, at that time — Excuse me just one second.
(Mr. Freedman confers with his counsel.)
I am sorry.
Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Wlien did you learn that for the first time ?
The Chairman. Just a minute. Wliat was the answer "Yes" to?
Mr. LiSHMAN. I asked him if he knew that Mr. Enright had fur-
nished such assistance to Mr. Stempel in advance of the program.
His answer was "Yes."
I would now like to know : When did you first learn that Mr. En-
right had furnished such assistance to Mr. Stempel ?
Mr. Freedman. May I speak off the record, sir, at this point?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LiSHMAN. I will rephrase my question. At the time that Mr.
Stempel was appearing on the program, did you have personal knowl-
edge that Mr. Enright was assisting that contestant in advance of
the program by supplying him with the questions and answers?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You did have personal knowledge that that was
being done?
Mr. Freedman. Well, I — I was not definitely told, but I assumed
it was being done.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Freedman, we want you to testify to
what you know, here, and we do not want any assumptions about
any of this. We want to know the facts, precisely what you know.
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. In other words, I was not told directly
to my face.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 213
The Chairman. You mean during the time of the show?
Mr. Freedman. I was not told directly, sir, that Mr. Stempel was
given questions and answers.
The Chairman. But did you learn later that that was true?
Mr. Fkeedman. Well, during the time that he was on, I assumed
that he was given questions and answers. In other words, I was not
told, but I assumed that he was.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Freedman, did Mr. Stempel at any time tell
you that he had been assisted in advance ?
INIr. Freedman. No, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you often furnish assistance to contestants on
this show prior to their appearance, by furnishing them with ques-
tions and answers that were to be asked on the program?
Mr. Freedman. Well, I will answer that by saying I furnished
some contestants questions and answers prior to their appearance on
"Twenty-one."
Mr. LiSHMAN. About how many contestants were on that program
while you were its producer?
Mr. Freedman. I say approximately between 125 to 150 contestants,
I would say, during the whole life of the show.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And approximately — to approximately how many
of that number did you furnish this kind of advance assistance ? We
are not holding you to any exact number.
Mr. Freedman. I would say approximately 15.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Approximately
Mr. Freedman. Between 15 and 20. I would say around 15. Fifteen
to 20. Between that number.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In addition to furnishing these contestants with this
advance assistance, did you also instruct them as to the number of
points that they should ask for ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. Yes, I did.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you also instruct these contestants as to when
they should stop on certain occasions ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you also tell them in advance on some occasions
what their scores would be during the contest ?
Mr. Freedman. I don't quite understand. You mean at the end
of the show ?
Mr. LiSHMAN. Either at the end of the show, or that it would result
in a tie, for example?
Mr. Freedman. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you often tell these contestants that it was neces-
sary to have ties in order to build up suspense and get audience
appeal ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. LiSHMAN. Did you give these contestants instructions on how
they should act while in the isolation booth?
Mr. Freedman. Some instructions, yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. A^^iat kind of instructions would you give them?
Mr. Freedman. Well, something that I told to all contestants was
to think before you answered any question, because very often, be-
cause people are very nervous, they make mistakes. So it was an im-
portant factor to "take your time before answering any question."
To pause while answering a question.
214 IISrVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Do you want to know specifically ?
INIr. LiSHMAN. I would like to know specifically what you taught
them or instructed them to do in the way of gestures and so on, in
order to create the impression on the viewing public that these people
were undergoing some kind of strenuous mental effort in order to
arrive at the correct answer.
Mr. Freedman. I am just trying to think.
Well, the most important factor was, as I told you — which applied
to every contestant on the show — was asking them to take their time,
which not only helped them in answering questions but also built up
any tension you have in the program, because if you answered imme-
diately, right away, it took away from the drama of the show. And
I think that was the most important thing. As far as scratching
your head, it depended. If a person did it naturally, then they
scratched their head. If they were hot in the booth, and they per-
spired — and the booth was hot, as has been testified.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Have you concluded your description of the man-
nerisms that you instructed these contestants to engage in?
Mr. Freedman. Generally, sir, I would say.
Mr. LisHMAN. Is it true that while they were receiving these in-
structions you used a stop watch to make certain as to the time it
would take them to make these various gestures ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, this was used infrequently, and I didn't use
that procedure all the time. It was used infrequently.
Mr. Lishm:an. And did you instruct these contestants that they
should from time to time skip the question ; that is, even though they
knew the correct answer as received from you or from Mr. Enright in
advance, that they should skip it and co^me back to it, in order to in-
crease the tension ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, offhand I would say it happened.
Mr. LisHMAN. And you instructed them to expect that to be done ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LispiMAN. And that they should do that ?
Mr. Freedman". Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAX. Now, when an applicant for "Twenty-one" arrived,
what did you do with that applicant ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, before an applicant arrived for "Twenty-
one," there is a certain procedure that the applicant had to go through.
Would you be interested in that, or do you just want to know what
happened
Mr. LiSHMAN. You might briefly describe what he had to do, and
then we will come up to Avhere you came into the picture.
Mr. Freedman. All right. If an applicant tried out for a show
that the organization was producing, they would either call the office
or write a letter, and there was a young lady who would take their
names and schedule a time where thev could come in and take a test.
This was the preliminary test. And if those who took this test made
out very well, they were then asked if they wanted to take a test for
"Twenty-one," which was a much more difficult test, of approximately
360 questions or so. Those who made out very well in this second test
were then interviewed by another young lady, and if she felt that the
personality suited the program, along with their high score, she then
had an interview, set aside a time, so that I could interview that
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 215
person. I don't know how many people I used to interview every
week, not too many, and the interview would take, well, anywhere
from a half hour to 1 or 2 hours. If on the basis of that interview I
feh that their background, their work, their personality, how they
made out in the test, and so forth — if this contestant had the above
qualifications, then I would ask this person or would tell the person
that they would be on a — can you hear me all right? That they
would be on a standby list for "Twenty-one." And that is how we
left it.
Mr, LisHMAN". Were you assigned certain contestants who should
be in your charge so far as the giving of advance information was
concerned?
Mr. Freedman. Was I assigned to these contestants?
Mr. LiSHMAN. Well, among the contestants who came there, were
certain of them placed in your charge for the purpose of giving them
advance assistance ?
Mr. Freedman, Well, I don't quite understand that question. I
was the one who selected the contestants whom I thought would be
qualified for the show, at which time I then made an appointment
for these contestants to see Mr. Enright. If these contestants — they
were then called in, and they were interviewed by Mr. Enright, and
if he agreed with my estimation of these contestants, they were then —
I am sorry ; I had left this out before — that was the last step. Then
they were put on the "Twenty-one'' standby list.
Mr. LisHMAN. I think I can explain my question to you a little
more clearly by giving you a specific example.
As I understand your testimony so far, in the case of the witness
Stempel, you did not furnish him with the advance information ; that
Mr. Enright, according to the testimony received by this subcommit-
tee, did that, with that contestant. And you did not have any knowl-
edge of that, although you assumed it was being done. Xow, what I
am getting at is : Among the numerous contestants who were on this
show, how were the contestants assigned so far as you and Mr. En-
right were concerned, as to who would give assistance to a particular
contestant ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, now I understand your question. As far as
Mr. Stempel was concerned, I was not the producer when Mr. Stempel
first came on the show. I did become the producer while Mr. Stempel
was on the show. Consequently, after I became producer, there was
no such thing as one being assigned, or if a contestant were to be
given help there was no such thing as his being assigned to myself or
Mr. Enright.
Mr. LisHMAN. Could I say something off the record to refresh the
witness' recollections ?
The Chairman. Oh, yes.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LiSHMAN. Let's get back, now, to the record.
Did Mr. Enright tell you what contestants should receive this ad-
vance assistance?
Mr. Fkeedman. Well, it was a question of both myself and Mr. En-
right deciding which contestants we felt needed aid in some measure.
Mr. LisiiMAN. How did you judge the necessity for that?
Mr. Freedman. The necessity ? Or whom to pick ?
Mr. LiSHMAN. Wliom to pick.
216 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Freedman. Well, tliat can only be explained — it is very diffi-
cult to explain — that can only be explained by having- a feel for it,
having been in the business, the show business, for many years, and
with all the background of the contestant, as I told you, his occupa-
tion, his personality, his knowledge, and so forth, that also with the
feeling that one has about this contestant possibly being one that
would create enthusiasm. It is purely on that basis. This does not
mean that I or Mr. Enright or we were always right, you know.
Mr. LisHMAN. Well, is it correct that in determining who would
receive assistance you would first consider who was a good contestant
on there that would keep your ratings up ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, may I add at this moment that there were
good contestants who did not receive assistance who did very well
with our ratings. I would like to get that for the record, if I may.
On the other hand — I am sorry. What was that question ?
Mr. LisHMAN. Would the stenographer read the question ?
(The question referred to was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Freedman. It may sound a little unbelievable, but I don't
think the rating was the only criterion. It was important, but that
wasn't the only one.
Mr. LiSHMAN. It was an important one ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes ; that was an important criterion.
Mr. LisHMAN. Would you take into consideration — -let us assume
that Mr. Rosenhouse had had dinner with Mr. Enright and had
said to him, "Well, there is a contestant on that program. I want you
to keep him on." Would that information be passed on to you, to
make certain that he received assistance, to keep him on ?
Mr. Freedman. All I can say is in the years I have been with Mr.
Enright, or the years that I was attached to "Twenty-one," I had
never been told anything of that nature, or even approximating that.
As far as I can tell you, there has never been any outside influence
ever exerted upon me, or as far as I know upon Mr. Enright, to give
aid to any contestant.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Now, when you first came on this show as producer,
how did you come to start giving assistance to a contestant ?
Mr. Freedman. Excuse me. Did you mean the methods ?
Mr. LisHMAN. "Wlien you first came on this show as producer — I
will rephrase it. Did you assume that you were going to be producing
honest contestants of knowledge ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, by the time I had taken over the production
reins of "Twenty-one," I had been in the entertainment field for ap-
proximately 6 years. During that 6 years I liad learned several im-
portant things. And that is if you want to work in show business, you
must put on an entertaining show. You must put on a show, whether
it is radio, which I worked in, or television, or for this matter, any
medium of show business — the show must be one that entertains peo-
ple, one that is not dull, and one where there is sufficient excitement
and entertainment value so that audiences will turn — or continue
with the show week after week.
From our early days in radio, I have learned that a show, in order
to be successful, had to be — for the most part needed control of sorts.
This is not to say that every show is controlled. But in working in
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 217
the business, all I can say is that you pick up many things. And all
of us who work in the business realize this particular factor.
By the time I came to "Twenty-one," it seemed, assuming the role
of producer of the show, I knew I had to put on a show, produce a
show, that would have a great deal of entertainment value, a show
that people would enjoy watching, really enjoy watching. And I
laiew by that time that at certain periods, at certain times, control was
necessary of a degree.
And if you want to know how I came about
Mr. LisHMAN. If I can short-cut some of this answer, what I wanted
to find out was : Was it your idea, or Mr. Enright's idea, that this type
of control, of furnishing assistance in advance to selected contestants,
should be given ? Was it your idea, or his idea ?
Mr. Freedman. I won't swear upon it, but I would say it was my
idea. I am not completely sure of it, but I would say from what my
recollection would be.
Mr. LisHMAN. But is it not a fact that before you came on the pro-
gram that some assistance had been rendered to Stempel ? Mr. Stem-
pel and Mr. Jackman were on the program before you came there as
producer, were they not ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And are 3'ou familiar with their testimony, that they
had received such assistance in advance?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. So how would it be your idea, if it was already going
on when you arrived there ?
Mr. Freedman. Are 3'ou talking about the idea of how to run the
show, or the idea of specific contestants ?
Mr. LisHiMAN. The furnishing of assistance in advance to the con-
testants is what I am talking about.
Mr. Freedman. Well, the concept, that concept, of — ^Well, I am
talking of an individual contestant. Whose idea was it to give to an
individual contestant? Or whose idea was the overall concept?
Well, as I say, it is very hard to say. I was never— how shall I say —
"This is how it must be done" — because when you assumed the role of
producer of a show of this nature, you assumed that these are neces-
sary controls that have to be done, and you are not told in black and
white.
Mr. LisHMAN. Well, Mr. Freedman, let's get down to business here.
When you were first employed as producer by Mr. Enright on this
show", was it understood by you that you would continue to give this
assistance in advance to contestants ? Was it, or was it not ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, it was not said to me, but it was assumed. I
assumed that this would be a manner of operation of the show.
Mr. Lishman. What led you to that assumption ? Wliat facts ?
Mr. Freedman. Well
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
I am sorry. The only way I can really answer that is that there
was nothing in black and white. I just entered the scene, and as far
as I can recollect, I just took over, you know.
Mr. Lishman. Well, did you and Mr. Enright sit down anywhere
and plan in advance how these contests, alleged contests, would be
run?
218 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Fkeedman. Yes, sir.
Ml'. LiSHMAN. Did you sit down in advance of the games and de-
cide how many points each contestant should take and what ques-
tions and answers they s'hould be told ?
Mr. Freedman. On certain contestants, yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. And you did that with Mr. Enrijrht?
Mr. Freedjman, Yes.
Mr. LisH^iAx. Was anyone else present at these occasions when you
were plotting these things in advance?
Mr. Freedman. No, sir; it was only between Mr. Enright and
myself.
Mr. LisHMAN. And is it not a fact that with respect to most if not
all of the major money winners on this program, they received such
assistance in advance ?
Mr. Freedman. Mr. Chaimian, may I go off the record at this
time ?
The Chairman. Yes.
(Discussion oft' the record.)
The Chairman. You had some 125 contestants in total. You testi-
fied a moment ago that you gave assistance to some 15 or 20 of the
total members.
Mr. Freedman, That is right.
The Chairman. Is that the fact ? Is that true ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The distinction is : Was it the assistance you gave
to that many, or was it the assistance given by both you and Mr.
Enright to that many ?
Mr. Freedman. No, the inference is the assistance that I gave.
The Chairman. That you gave yourself to some 15 to 20 of the
total 125 ?
Mr. Freedman. That is right, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Mr. Freeclman, would you say that some 60 to 70
percent of the shows were fixed ?
Mr. Freedman. May I be off the record again, sir?
Mr. LisHMAN. No, on the record.
Mr. Freedman. This was the question that we had gone off the
record.
Mr. Lishman, No, this is a different one.
The Chairman. What was the question ?
Mr. Lishman. I asked him if it is not a fact that 60 to 70 percent
of these show^s were fixed. This can be off the record if you wish.
I will tell you the reason for it. We have information compiled from
your testimony before the grand jui'y which would show that. Now,
that is not revealing any names.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Lishman. I will ask the question on the record. Is it not a fact
that more than 50 percent of the ])erformances of "Twenty-one" were
fixed in advance of their showing?
The Chairman. Well, let us put it like this
Mr. Lishman. Let us put it this way : Or to some degree controlled,
so as to assure w'ho woulcl win.
I will rephrase tlie question. Is it not a fact that in more than
50 percent of the perfonnances some assistance was given to the con-
testants?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 219
j\Ir. Freedman. Yes, sir,
Mr. LisHMAN. In advance of the sliowing ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Freecbnan, have you read the testimony of the
.yitness Snodgrass before the subcommittee?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Is there anything in his testimony that you would
;are to correct or state was mitrue ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. Would you tell us what that is, please ?
Mr. Freedman. The first thing I resented — that as a former Ma-
rine — I was in the Marine Corps for 5 years and if anybody in the
Marine Corps were to learn that I cried, as he stated, after the show, I
tvould be bounced out of the Marine Corps. I have never cried after
my performance or before any performance or during any perform-
mce. I want that for the record.
When Mr. Snodgrass — oh, after the performance that Mr. Snod-
grass was referring to, I think he put it "doublecrossed me," however,
le did, he said I came down to his room and cried and then I said
liat I am ruined, and something about budget, and so forth. Well,
;his is all ridiculous, and it is poppycock, because I never cry. I never
iiscussed budget with any contestant. And I never said I was ruined.
[ will tell you what I did say. I said, "Why did you do it?" And
le said, "Because I wanted to win." Which is a logical answer, you
inow.
Mr. Lishman. Well, Mr. Freedman, were you not a little bit upset
kvhen he came out with Emily Dickinson instead of Ralph Waldo
Emerson ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes; it was a little unusual. I was upset. But I
laven't cried since I was a child.
Mr. Lishman. Is it not a fact that Mr. Bloomgarden won $75,000
which he otherwise would not have received as a result of Mr. Snod-
grass giving the right answer when he was supposed to lose?
Mr. Freedman. May I add it is not my money that is given away.
[t is NBC's money. And I couldn't be more delighted. It was a
pleasure when anyone won money.
Mr. Lishman. Are you familiar that during the time this per-
formance was on the air the approximate average amount in prize
money each week was a little over $10,000 ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, I was aware, I did know, at least I think I
knew, that the budget for prize money was $10,000 a week. I did not
have, though, control of the prize money. In fact, I very seldom —
[ can't recollect my ever discussing that with Mr. Enright. Mr. En-
right was purely — was in charge of the financial part of the show.
Mr. Lishman. Why were you so upset, if you were not interested
in the money end of it, when Mr. Snodgrass gave the right answer ?
Mr. Freedman. Because I told him to give another answer.
Mr. Lishman. Then was it purely esthetic excitement ?
Mr. Freedman. Sorry.
Mr. Lishman. Was that a purely esthetic excitement ?
Mr. Freedman. On whose part ?
Mr. Lishman. On your part. Or was it becr-.use you felt your
judgment had not been vindicated by this man? "\^niat was the
reason to get upset if you were not interested in the money ?
220 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Fkeedman. I said I got slightly upset, you know. That was
the reason. Because he answered the question. But there was noth-
ing esthetic about it.
Mr. LiSHMAN". Did you feel that Snodgrass had not treated you
honorably ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, this is no time for me to talk about that.
Mr, LiSHMAN. I was just wondering what caused you to be upset.
Mr. Feeedman. I said I was slightly upset. As far as I can re-
member, I was slightly upset. And there is no particular devious
reason for my being upset. I am just trying to think of the other
parts of his testimony.
Mr. Lishman. Have you made all the corrections that you desire
with regard to Mr. Snodgrass's testimony ?
Mr. Freedman. Could I have a moment, sir, so that I could think
about it ?
Mr. LisuMAN. Yes.
Mr. Murphy. Mr, Chairman, may I ask a question off the record?
The Chairman. Yes.
( Discussion off' the record. )
Mr. LisHMAN, I will ask the question in another way. Is it a fact
that Mr. Snodgrass's testimony that he was furnished by you with
information as to the questions and answers that were to be asked
him on the program and was told by you the number of points to j
select in advance of his appearance on the show — is that true?
Mr. Freedman". Yes, sir,
Mr. LisHMAN. That is true ?
Mr. Freedmaist. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you tell Mr. Snodgrass, as he has testified, that
he was supposed to play a series of ties ?
Mr. Freedman. No, sir. Wlien Mr. Snodgrass came on, on the
show, he was told about playing one game, about that one show.
Mr. LisHMAN. He was told what ?
Mr. Freedman. He was not told about a series of ties. INIaybe
that is the best way to answer that. He was not told about this
series of ties when he was on the show. Or when he first came on
the show.
Mr, LisHMAN, Was he ever told that he would play a series of
ties?
Mr, Freedman, I don't ever recollect telling Mr. Snodgrass that
he would ever be — I never recollect
Mr. LisHMAN. I will ask the question in another way. Did you,
in fact, schedule Mr. Snodgrass so that he would play a series of ties?
Mr. Freedman. No, sir, I did not schedule for that. I selected
Mr. Snodgrass
Mr. LiSHMAN. Just a minute. Is it a fact that a series of ties were
played by Mr. Snodgrass ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Well, how could those series of ties be played unless
you had planned in advance what points should be asked for?
Mr. Freedman. You had asked me if I had told him at the begin-
ning whether I had planned a series of ties.
Mr. LisHMAN. Yes. I just asliied you if you had scheduled that he
should play a series of ties. I am not asking you now whether you told
him. Did you, or did you not ? i
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 221
Mr. Fkeedman. May we please go off the record for this a minute ?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LisHMAN. Is it a fact that in a number of instances where ad-
vance information was being supplied by you to a contestant that you
scheduled the points in such a way that there would be a series of ties?
Mr. Freedman. Would you read that ?
(The question referred to was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Freedman. Yes. It has happened. It did happen.
Mr. LisHMAN. Now, in giving the assistance that you have de-
scribed to the contestants in advance of their appearance, w^ere you at
ill times subject to the direction and control of Mr. Enright?
Mr. Freedman. Was I
Mr. LiSHMAN. At all times subject to Mr. Enright's direction and
control '?
Mr. Freedman. Regarding contestants ?
Mr. LiSHMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Freedman. Yes.
Mr. LisHMAN. At any time while you were producer of "Twenty-
3ne", were you in effect told to continue a contestant whom you did
aot wish to have continued on the program ?
Mr. Freedman. Not that I recollect, no, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you ever discuss the giving of assistance to con-
testants with Mr. Barry ?
Mr. Freedman. No, I never discussed any aspect of giving assist-
ance to anyone with Mr. Barry, at any time.
Mr. LisHMAN. Prior to coming with the "Twenty-one" show, had
70U been employed by Mr. Enright on another show, "Tic-Tac-
Dough", as producer ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Had you used this same concept of controls on that
show?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir. Well, to a degi-ee. I wasn't on that show
very long, but several times.
The Chairman. Off the record.
( Discussion off the record. )
Mr. LisHMAN. Well, did you give questions and answers in advance
on "Tic-Tac-Dough" ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. So that, when you came over to "Twenty-one," you
were already familiar with this concept of control as employed by
Mr. Enright's other show?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr, LisHMAN. Did you ever give any questions and answers in
advance on the show of the "Big Surprise"?
Mr. Freedman. Sir, off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Freedman. I was on that show a very short time. I think I
explained this before. I was a writer on the show. I prepared inter-
views with the contestants. I was on maybe for one or two months.
And several times, at the last moment, I was asked to give helj), help
several contestants. And that is the extent of any aid I gave on that
show. It was very slight.
Mr. Lishman. Wliat kind of help did you give, Mr. Freedman ?
52294— 60— pt. 1 -15
222 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SH0V7S
Mr. Freedman. This is a long time ago, and all that I ca,n recall —
in one instance I was told to discuss several questions with a con-
testant who was to be in the show.
The Chairman. You mean several questions that were to be a part
of the show?
Mr. Freedman. That is right.
Mr. LisHMAN. And were the questions later used on the show
Mr. Freedman. I really don't remember. I suppose so. I don]t
know. It was such a long time ago. I had forgotten about this until
the grand jury investigation.
Mr. LisHMAN. Who asked you to do that?
Mr. Freedman. It was one of three people. I can't specify, because
I really don't know who it was. I know I had been asked, and I
really cannot.
Mr. LisHMAN. Was it Mr. Carlin ?
Mr. Freedman, I really can't say.
Mr. LisHMAN. Was it Mr. Koplin?
Mr. Freedman. Who?
Mr. LisHMAN. Mr. Koplin.
Mr. Freedman. It could have been — there were three people who
were executives.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Barry?
I will give you three names.
Mr. Freedman. No, Mr. Bariy had nothing to do with that.
Mr. LisHMAN. Mr. Heater?
Mr. Freedman. No, he wasn't on the show then.
Mr. Goodwin. Miss Bernstein?
Mr. Freedman. No ; a fellow with short hair, very short hair.
Mr. LisHMAN. It was someone who instructed you to do that. Was
the gentleman your superior there?
Mr. Freedman. Yes. But it wasn't my job to do that. It must be;
understood that it was just — they needed an extra hand at the last
minute, and I just happened to be available, and they just said,
"Please do so-and-so," and I did.
Mr. Lishman. Do you recall whether or not the man who instructed;
you to give this advance assistance in that show associated with En-
tertainment Enterprises — Production, Inc., rather?
Mr. Freedman. I guess that was the name.
Mr. Lishman. He was connected with it ?
Mr. Freedman. I don't know whether it was called that at th&i
time. I am not sure. It could have been EPI, or it could be the:
name before that. I am not sure.
Mr. Lishman. The Lou Cowan Enterprises?
Mr. Freedman. It could have been ; yes. I am not sure.
The Chairman. What year did you say it was ?
Mr. Freedman. It was the spring of 1956.
Mr. Lishman. Did you regard "Twenty-one" as a rehearsed dra-
matic production ?
Mr. Freedman. No, sir. I regarded "Twenty-one" as a very excit-
ing quiz show while it was on. Oh, sometimes not too exciting. But
for tlie most part an entertaining quiz show. I never considered
"Twenty-one" a dramatic show.
Mr. Lishman. Well, when you had given the assistance to the con- .
testants in advance and knew what was coming, was it more exciting.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 223
on such occasions, or less exciting than on the occasions when such
information had not been furnished ?
Mr. Freedman. That is hard for me to say, because in both in-
stances there were exciting shows — instances where there were an-
swers given. And believe me they were exciting shows. And in shows
where there were both questions and answers given.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And in many instances did you tell contestants that
they had to lose?
Mr. Freedmax. In those instances where I helped contestants, there
were several times when I told them to lose.
Mr. LisHMAN. Now, what happened when you were summoned the
first time to appear before the grand jury ?
Mr. Freedman. The first time? To answer that, I think I have
to give you my true feelings at the time. I was frightened. I should
put this in the plural. We were all frightened. We were all in panic.
We acted very stupidly. We acted in a way that I now regret very,
very much. I foolishly lied to the grand jury, and
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did Mr. Enright suggest that to you ?
Mr. Freedman. No.
Mr. LisHMAN. Had Mr. Enright suggested that you should not
tell the truth before the grand jury ?
Mr. Freedman. No. No one ever told me not to tell the truth be-
fore the grand jury. That was my own decision. And if I may, I
would like to tell you why.
In my panic, and not knowing very much of the ground rules of a
grand jury — it was a brand new experience for me. We are not
hardened criminals. We are in show business. And the only thing I
knew about a grand jury is that it would make a good format for a
dramatic show. That is about as far as we ever got to know about
grand juries. I didn't even know that you were not allowed to have
a lawyer before a grand jury. That shows our ignorance, in this case.
I assumed one could have his attorney with him. But my feeling at
the time was one of great panic. I was then producing "Twenty-one."
I had several concerns. I had the concern that the show should not go
oft' the air. I had the concern for the contestants, who I felt, if their
identities were revealed, would destroy these people. I felt that the
jobs of many of my friends working for the organization would be
in jeopardy.
Consequently, when I went before the grand jury, my testimony was
foolishly done to safegaiard all these three. I now realize that
Mr. Lisiiman. Mr. Freedman, when the story broke in the news-
papers that the grand jury was going into this, is it a fact that you
went around and met with several of the contestants who had re-
ceived assistance in advance from you ?
Mr. Freedman. I will tell you. I did meet some of these contestants,
and I told them the following. I told them how I would testify. And
I must say that practically all of them were very, very concerned about
exposure. And I thought by telling them that, it would make — it
would take the terror away from these people.
Mr. LiSH3iAN. Did you assure these contestants that you would
not tell the truth before the grand jury so as to implicate them?
Mr. Freedman. The way I put it: When I go before the grand
, jury, I am not going to say that I have given you questions and
answers.
224 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LisiiMAN. And did some of these contestants insist that you
say that to them?
Mr. Feeedman". No. No contestant ever insisted. In fact, no one
ever insisted what to say before the grand jury. And at this time, I
would like to point out that at no time did I ever go to any contestant
and say, "I want you to testify such-and-such before a grand jury."
That is one aspect of law I knew, that that was illegal. I would never
do that. I never did do that.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you state to them something like this: I want
you to go before the Grand Jury and tell them the truth, that you
received no assistance ?
Mr. Freedman. I don't recollect my ever giving orders to any ■
Mr. LishmajSt. I am not speaking of orders. Did you use language
substantially similar to what I have said to any of the contestants?
Mr. Freedman. I don't want you to — would you say that again? ,
Mr. LisiiMAN. "I want you to go before the grand jury and tell
them the truth, that you did not receive any assistance." Did you say
that to any contestants ?
Mr. Freedman. To tlie best of my knowledge, Mr. Lishman, I never
told any contestant either that or what to say before a grand jury.
Mr. Lishman. What was your purpose in going around to see these
contestants ?
Mr. Freedman. Excuse me. The timing of this is a little off. I
didn't see these people at the grand jury time. As far as I recollect.
Because I think most of the people I did see was during the time that it
was being investigated by Mr. Stone, Mr. Stone's office. And after it
reached the grand jury, I don't recall. And if I did, I don't remem-
ber saying anything of that sort.
Mr. Lishman. Well, did you expect that when you assured these j
people that you would lie when you went down to the grand jury's !
office that would give them some comfort in their going in there and \
doing the same thing ?
Mr. Freedman. You know, right now it is so hard for me to say ;
what was going through my mind. All I know is that I was panic j
stricken, and that explains my mental frame of mind. I didn't know !
what the heck to expect, frankly.
Mr. Lishman. Did you go to Mr. Jackman and tell him that if this j
story ever got out Mr. Enright's career would be ruined ?
Mr. Freedman. No.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Jackman has so testified.
Mr. Freedman. Yes. I know. I met with Mr. Jackman. What
did you say, again ? If I testified to what ?
Mr. Lishman. If he testified and this story ever got out, that Mr.
Enright's career would be ruined, or words to that effect.
Mr. Freedman. If he testified to the grand jury ?
Mr. Lishman. Yes.
Mr. Freedman. Did Mr. Jackman say that?
Mr. Lishman. Yes.
Mr. I'RKEDMAN. "Well, I will tell you what I said to Mr. Jackman
The first time I met Mr. Jackman was — Well, I lived in the Village
and he lived in the Village at the time. So I know that Mr. Enright
wanted to speak to him. So I looked him up. And that was the ex
tent of my first conversation.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 225
After that, I met him again, and in the course of the conversation
■we did discuss what would happen — we discussed many things that
evening, and among the things were what could conceivably happen
if truth of his involvement, if truth of "Twenty-one," came out. But
to the best of my knowledge, in all sincerity, I never counseled him
what to do and what not to do. And I must say this, again. I never
counseled any contestant as regards the grand jury, as to what to say
and what not to say.
Mr. LisHMAX. In your conversation with Mr. Jackman, did you
know that he had previously met with Mr. Enright ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes.
Mr. LisHMAN. And did Mr. Jackman tell you what Mr. Enright
had said to him?
Mr. Freed:man. He didn't discuss the conversation. He never told
me what he said to Mr. Enright.
Mr. LisHarAN. Well, did Mr. Enright tell you what Mr. Jackman
had said to him?
Mr. Freedman. No, I didn't discuss it with Mr. Enright. No.
Mr. LisHiNf AN. Did Mr. Enright tell you to go and see these con-
testants ?
Mr. Freedman. Which contestants? I am sorry. To see all con-
testants ?
Mr. LisHMAN. I am not sajdng all. These contestants. Or any
contestants.
Mr. Freedman. Well, the only one he asked me to see, to look up
and see if I could find, as far as I know, is Jackman. He did tell
me since I lived down in the Village, and Jackman's address was in
the Village, to look up Jackman and have Jackman call him. As
far as any other contestants, I can't remember.
Mr. Lishman. Did Mr. Enright at this time ask you to go around
and see any contestants and find out what they were going to testify ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, again I must say that this particular period
was a very confusing one. What anyone said to me or what I said
to anyone
Mr. Lishman. Are you positive that Mr. Enright did not tell you
to do that?
Now, you are under oath here, again.
Mr, Freedman. Yes, sir. I know, sir. And I want to tell the
truth. And though I can't give you a positive answer, to the best of
my knowledge I don't know of any instance outside of this Jackman
instance where Mr. Enright said, "You go and find out how that
man is going to testify."
Mr. Lishman. Did Mr. Enright know you were going to see Mr.
Jackman ?
Mr. Freedman. He asked me to find
Mr. Lishman. Did you report back to Mr. Enright the results of
your visit to Mr. Jackman ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes.
Mr. Lishman, And what did you report to Mr, Enright?
Mr. Freedman. Excuse me. You mean the time that I had this
meeting with Jackman in the Village ?
Mr. Lishman. Yes.
(Witness confers w^ith his counsel.)
226 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS |
Mr. Freedman. I am sorry. Any hesitancy on my part to answer
questions, believe me, is not because I want to pervert the truth. I
think I told the whole truth already.
Mr. LisHMAN. What did you report back to Mr. Enright about
your visit to Mr. Jackman ?
Mr. Freedman. To the best of my recollection, I said that I think
that Mr. Jackman is going to tell the truth.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Now, without naming names, did you attempt or
did you see any other contestants for the purpose of ascertaining what
they were going to testify to or what they were going to say to the
district attorney? Did you make any attempt or did you actually
contact any other contestant ?
Mr. Freedman. As I said, I met with contestants before the grand
jury investigation. I met with some of them. And I told them my
feelings. And of course in the conversation they at times, I suppose
at all times, told me how they felt about it. But I didn't counsel them
as to what to do. So I suppose that answers your question.
Mr. Lishman. Did Mr. Enright know that you were contacting
these contestants ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. Did he ask you to do it ?
Mr. Freedman. No. He didn't.
Mr. Lishman. Did you report back to him the results of what you
found ?
Mr. Freedman. I suppose I did discuss with him the results.
The Chairman. What was the purpose of your contacting these
contestants that knew you were going before the grand jury ?
Mr. Freedman. No, sir, this was before it came before the grand
jury. It was before the district attorney. To let them know how I
felt. As I said, I was in a very confused state at the time, and my
actions at that time were ones of panic. And I have admitted al-
ready to you that what I did was stupid.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Freedman, is it a fact that you told each of these
persons that you contacted that, "I will testify," or, "I will make a
statement to the district attorney" that no assistance was given to
you ?
Mr. Freedman. The way I put it was this : If I were asked by the
district attorney if I have given assistance to you, I am going to say
I didn't. That was the gist of what I said.
Mr. Lishman. Did Mr. Enright know that you were making a
statement of this kind to these contestants ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. He did know ?
IVIr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman, Did you get any reactions from the persons to whom
you told this that they would adopt a similar policy, in view of what
you had just told them ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, some told me tlieir feelings. I would say the
majority of them told me how they felt and what their attitudes
were, too.
Mr. Lishman. And did they say that they would do the same thing
that you were going to do ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, some said they would. Some didn't comment.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 227
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you ask any of these contestants to go and
speak to an attorney ? Did you ask any of them to go and speak to
an attorney whom you named ?
Mr. Freedman. No. As far as I know, I never asked them to see
any attorney.
See who ? My attorney ?
Mr. Lishman. Enright's attorney.
Mr. Freedman. Oh, I had an attorney at that time.
Mr. Lishman. Did you ask them to go to see either your attorney
or Enright's attorney ?
Mr. Freedman. To the best of my knowledge, I didn't ask anyone
to see my attorney or Enright's attorney.
Mr. Lishman. I have no further questions at this time.
The Chairman. Mr. Freedman, you understand the purpose is to
assist the committee with the responsibility it has in connection with
the investigation of the so-called quiz TV shows.
How old are you ?
Mr. Freedman, I am 37 years old.
The Chairman. You have testified to the general format and
operations of these shows, "Twenty-one," "Tic-Tac-Dough," "Big
Surprise." I am quite impressed with the ability that you have, and
I want to compliment you for it. I think you know the show business.
Mr. Freedman. Thank you, sir.
The Chairman. I think you know what it takes to entertain the
public and to arouse the attention of the public. You have shown
that to me in your knowledge of this business, the experience that you
have had, and at your age I think it is quite a compliment to you.
Mr. Freedman. Thank you, sir.
The Chairman. You have given a rather sordid experience that you
had which in my humble judgment is rather unfortunate, because of
the ability you have in this field.
Now, your testimony in connection with this matter, this whole pro-
gram, is highly important, particularly in view of the experience that
you have had, not only in connection with the shows themselves, but
with what has occurred since. '
Now, you have testified in connection with the "Twenty-one" TV
shows you know, of your own knowledge, something about, that there
were 125 or more contestants, and that some 15 to 20 had been given
assistance in advance by you, and that of your own knowledge in
some 50 percent or more of the total performances assistance had
been given in advance, that is, some 50 percent of the very shows that
have gone on. That is the general format and operation of the
program.
I want to ask you just a few questions with reference to specific
contestants.
Let us take first Mr. Stempel. He was the first witness. And you
know who he is.
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
^ The Chairman. He testified that he received assistance. Did you
give him assistance ?
Mr. Freedman. No, I didn't, sir.
The Chairman. Did you know that he did receive assistance ?
Mr. Freedman. At the time I assumed he was, yes.
228 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
The Chairman. Did you learn, following that, from your own
knowledge, that he was given assistance ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you learn from what you knew about it that
that assistance included something of the questions that were going
to be asked and something of the answers that were to be given ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. First I will ask you : You stated that you did inter-
view all the contestants yourself. That was a rather long interview
in connection with some of them, at least ; is that not true ?
Mr. Freedman. I am sorry.
The Chairman. That was a rather long interview in connection
with some of the contestants ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In other words, you had to be satisfied that they
were rather intellectual individuals before they would be accepted
for the show.
Mr. Freedman. That is right.
The Chairman. In other words, they had to have some knowledge
of such events.
Mr. Freedman. I would like to say that to my Iniowledge every
contestant that we had on "Twenty-one" was superior intellectually
and had what I considered a vast knowledge and background of many
subjects. I think this is without exception.
The Chairman. All right. Now, in this general foraiat and gen-
eral operation, you told each of the contestants as they appeared — of
course they had to be advised of what the thing was all about and
what they had to do. And you advised each of them about how to
act, or to take their time, I believe. That was the general picture of
all the contestants.
Mr. Freedman. That is right.
The Chairman. You told all of them how to act, generally, did you
not?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, I did.
The Chairman. Even though I believe one of them today, Mr. Jack-
man, seemed to think he was pretty well versed in that field himself
and he knew pretty much how to act. And he showed it pretty well,
I think, from the kinescope we saw.
Now, did you also tell each of the contestants to rub their brow, you
know, to show that they were under some stress and strain ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, I will tell you. I don't think I ever told any
contestant to rub their brow, but it was a natural thing to do. It was
so hot in that booth they automatically did it. They all automatically
did it. They were all very intelligent.
The Chairman. Or not to rub across this way, but to pat themselves
on the forehead ?
Mr. Freedman. That was said by Mr. Stempel, and as I said, I had
nothing to do with Mr. Stempel.
The Chairman. Was there air conditioning in those booths ?
Mr. FreedjNian. Yes, sir, there was an air-conditioning unit in the
booth. And I am sure this question has aroused some curiosity— why
this air-conditioning unit was not on. And the reason is very simple :
Because it made so much noise that it would drown out what the con-
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 229
testant was saying. Consequently, we couldn't put on the air-condi-
tioning unit. We would only have it on before the show, to cool the
booth. And it was unfortunate that the lights in the studio heated
the booth to this extent.
The Chairman. It also served to make them warm, too, so they
would perspire.
Mr. Freedman. None of them complained. They lost weight very
nicely.
The Chairman. Did you advise them or instruct them to bite their
lips or make certain gestures and so forth ?
Mr. Freedman. Offhand, I am certain I did advise them as to ges-
tures. I can't think of any biting lip thing, offhand. I can't think
of any.
The Chairman. That just sort of catches on, as it goes on. Now,
when you first started this show, and it got such a high rating or so
much interest, did you start giving assistance right off ?
Mr. Freedman. Could I please go off the record, now, sir?
The Chairman. Yes.
(Discussion off the record.)
The Chairman. When you first went with the show, Mr. Stempel
was one of the contestants ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And did you give Mr. Stempel assistance from
the start?
Mr. Freedman. No, sir.
The Chairman. How long after Mr. Stempel was on the show was
it before you gave him assistance ?
Mr. Freedman. I am sorry, sir. Could I go off the record again?
The Chairman. I am just talking about Mr. Stempel again.
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr, Murphy. His question is : Did you ever give Mr. Stempel assist-
ance?
Mr. Freedman. I am sorry. I misimderstood your question. No,
I never did.
The Chairman. You never found out about any assistance mitil
later on you found out Mr. Enright had given assistance ?
Mr. Freedman. That is right.
The Chairman. Do you know of j^our own knowledge that Mr. En-
right arranged for Mr. Stempel, in Mr. Stempel's own words, "to take
a dive" at a certain time?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, I knew of that.
The Chairman. You knew about it ?
Mr, Freedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And that is when he lost?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, let us take the second one, Mr. Snodgrass.
Mr. Snodgrass was on while you were a producer of the show ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You gave, I believe you testified, assistance your-
self to Mr. Snodgrass.
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In that assistance you not only advised him what
to do, and so forth ; you gave him assistance by questions and answers.
Is that true ?
230 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SH0V7S
Mr, Freedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you give him assistance by telling him how
many points to select at a given time ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you know about the time that he answered
the question correctly when he was supposed to have not answered it
correctly ?
Mr. Freedman. I am sorry, sir. The question was: Did I know
about the time ?
The Chairman. He testified that he was to lose by giving an erro-
neous answer to a question, and he decided that he would doublecross
you, and he gave the right answer to it.
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You know about that ? That part of his testimony
is correct ?
Mr. Freedman. That is right.
The Chairman. Now, do you know about the lady. Miss Rose Leib-
brand, who testified today ?
Mr. Freedman. Do I know about her ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Freedman. May I make a comment on her testimony ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Freedman. She mentions throughout Mr. Freedman as the pro-
ducer. I had absolutely nothing to do with Miss Leibbrand. And it
is very embarrassing to me, because I was not on the show when she
named me. So this may be an indication of how close she is in her
testimony, or how exact she is in her testimony. I wasn't on the show
when she was on the show.
JSIr. Lishman. Well, may I say something off the record ?
(Discussion off the record.)
The Chairman. Back on the record.
I asked you about Miss Leibbrand, who testified today that she was
on the show November 14, 1956. Were you with the show at that
time ?
Mr. Freedman. To the best of my recollection, I was not the pro-
ducer named by Miss Leibbrand.
The Chairman. Did you have anything to do with the show on that
date?
Mr. Freedman. I was, how shall I say, an observer with the show
on that date. But I did nothing, or I was not a producer of the show,
as of that date.
The Chairman. Then you yourself, you testify, had nothing to do
with assistance for Miss Leibbrand ?
Mr. Freedman. That is right. To the best of my knowledge, I did
not give her any assistance, at least the assistance she is talking about.
The Chairman. All right. Mr. Jackman; you remember Mr.
Jackman ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Were you a producer at the time Mr. Jackman was
a contestant ?
Mr. Freedman. On what show, sir ?
The Chairman. "Twenty-one."
Mr. Freedman. No, sir.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 231
The Chairman. Therefore, any assistance that he may have re-
ceived, you did not give to him, and neither do you know anything
about it.
Mr. Freedman. On "Twenty-one'' ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Freedman. Well, I didn't give him any assistance on "Twenty-
one."
The Chairman. All right. He stated that he was on "Tic-Tac-
Dough."
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir; he was on "Tic-Tac-Dough."
The Chairman. Did you give him any assistance on that ?
Mr. Freedman. No, sir ; I didn't give him any assistance.
Mr. Derounian. May I interject and tell the witness he testified
just tonight that he became producer in November of 1956 ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, she was apparently on the show in November,
but I told you I became producer after she was on the show, because
I remember who she was. But I was not the full producer then. As
I said, I just stood by.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Forgetting your title, now.
Mr. Freedman. As I answered to the best of my knowledge, I was
not the one who gave any questions or answers or anything to Miss
Leibbrand. I can't see myself doing it, because I was not the pro-
ducer.
Mr. Mack. Mr. Freedman, in your coaching of the witnesses, I
know you instructed them as to how to act at certain times, but did
you give them instructions to breathe into the mike at certain times ?
Mr. Freedman. I may have.
Mr. Mack. To breathe heavily into the mike ?
Mr. Freedman. I may have. I am not sure. I really am not.
Mr. Mack. You cannot remember whether you gave any contestant
such instructions?
Mr. Freedman. I cannot, sir. I cannot truthfully say that I did.
Mr. IVLiCK. Can I ask you if you ever had any financial interest in
the Barry & Enright productions?
Mr. Freedman. No, sir. By that you mean a percentage of the
company or something ? Is that what you mean ?
Mr. ;Mack. Yes.
Mr. Freedman. No.
Mr. Mack. I have one other question, and it is pertinent, of course,
but I do not want to consume a lot of time. And if you could briefly
tell us how vou got the questions for the program, I would appreciate
it.
Mr. Freedman. How questions for the program were created ? Is
that what you mean ?
Mr. Mack. How they became available to you and Mr. Enright,
who seemed to have them before Mr. Barry.
Mr. Freedman. Well
Mr. Mack. And if it would not consume too much time, and the
Chair would permit, I would like to know how you got the questions
in the first place.
Mr. Freedman. Mr. Mack, as producer of the show, one of my jobs,
and a very important job, was to supervise the writing and the cre-
ation of questions for the, oh, approximately 100 different categories
232 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
we had on the show. Consequently, at all thnes I was well aware of
the questions that were written and that were available.
Mr. Mack. Then you prepared the questions yourself on the show ?
Mr. Freedman. No. We had a staff whose only job was to do re-
search and to prepare questions. But I supervised that, along with
Mr. Enright.
Mr. Mack. Then for this coaching activity, or the assistance that
you rendered, you had copies of the same questions which would be
asked on a show by Mr. Barry ?
Mr. Freedman. That is right.
Mr. Mack. But you did not have the same cards that he used on his
show?
Mr. Freedman. No ; I didn't.
Mr. Mack. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions at this time.
The Chairman. Mr. Rogers ?
Mr. Rogers. Just one. About Miss Leibbrand, do you recall know-
mg her at all ?
Mr. Freedman. I recall the night that — this is 3 years ago, and my
memory is very hazy. I do recall that she was one of the contestants
on the show. I may have met her. I may have talked to her.
Mr. Rogers. Do you recall asking her to take seven or eight? I
read the testimony in the newspapers today, and she said something
to the effect that some producer told her, "You can't take more than
seven or eight," and she said, "But I can't win." And he said, "You
better take seven or eight, or else."
Mr. Freedman, This is a complete surprise to me. I can't imagine
any producer talking like that. It is pretty stupid. And certainly
it wasn't me. I didn't say that.
Mr. Rogers. You spoke of the numbers, though, didn't you?
Mr. Freedman. Just, "Seven or eight, or else," implying something
disastrous was going to happen ? No.
Mr. Rogers. But you asked Mr. Snodgrass what he crossed you up
for.
Mr. Freedman. I never said, "or else." That is like threatening a
person. That is ridiculous. No. But to get back to your original
question, Mr. Rogers, I do not recollect ever having had anything to
clo with this woman outside of maybe talking to her or meeting her.
Mr. Rogers. But you did tell the contestants to take certain num-
bers, so that they would get up to a certain point ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers. Did you tell them prior to the time, that they would
be in a tie, that they liad to take those numbers in order to get into a
tie?
Mr. Freedman. Well, the truth of the matter is I never told them
very much. Sometimes they would not know whether — I can't recall
every instance — whether there would be a tie or wouldn't be a tie.
Sometimes I did. Sometimes I didn't.
Mr. Rogers. You did tell them to ham it up, though, didn't you ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, that is not my expression. I said, "Be nat-
ural." You know, a ham is very obvious. I said, "Be yourself." If
you start hannning, you antagonize people by hamming. But if you
are natural, it is much more believable. I never told anybody to ham,
to ham it up.
Mr. Rogers. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 233
]\Ir. Springer. Mr. Freeclman, how long have you been in the busi-
ness?
Mr. Freedman. Almost 10 years, sir.
Mr. Springer. What is your age ?
Mr. Freedman. Thirty-seven years old.
Mr. Springer. How long have you known Mr. Enright ?
Mr. Freedman. Four years.
Mr. Springer. You have known him only since you became asso-
ciated with Barry & Enright Productions; is that correct?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. After the grand jury investigation was announced,
roughly how many contestants did you contact prior to their appear-
ance before that body ?
Mr. Freedman. It is very hard for me to say. I would assume
maybe — well, I would say as many as I could, sir. Probably 10 to 15.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Springer. Did you contact Mr. Charles Van Doren prior to his
appearance before tlie grand jury?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
The Chairman. On the record.
Did you talk to some of the contestants before you went to the
grand jury, who were not given any assistance ?
Mr. Freedman. Did I talk to some of the contestants before I went
to the grand jury ? Yes, I suppose — yes, I did. Let me see. Yes, I
did.
The Chairman. Now, with that, would you not answer Mr.
Springer's question ?
Mr. Freedman. You also wanted to know whether I had spoken
to Mr. Van Doren before he went to the grand jury? No.
The Chairman. Did you talk to liim before he went to the district
attorney's office?
Mr. Freedman. Yes.
Mr. Springer. When did you go to Mexico City ?
Mr. Freedman. I went to Mexico City — I left my home in June.
Mr. Springer. Do you remember the date ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes; we left the end of June. We drove by car
with my children and my wife.
Mr. Springer. What was your purpose in going to Mexico City ?
Mr. Freedman. I am glad you asked that question, Mr. Springer,
because the purpose was the following: I could not find a job in my
industry in the United States as a result of the investigation a year
ago, especially in view of my indictment. In order to support my
family, in order to have a little self-respect, a man has to work. I
decided to look for work in Mexico, where my wife used to work, and
where we have friends, where I would be able to do some writing,
where I will not be haunted by the unfortunate events of the last
year. I hope that we will be able to make a life for ourselves there.
Well, that is
]Mr. Springer. Mr. Freedman, when did you go off the payroll of
Barry & Enright?
Mr. Freedman. I went off their payroll in the fall. When I went
off the show.
Mr. Springer. The end of September 1958 ?
Mr. Fpjeedman. It was the end of September 1958.
234 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Springer, Were you employed thereafter ?
_ Mr. Freedman". Well, I did a little writing, a little work on the
side. Financially, I was helped by Mr. Enright. I sincerely hope
that — I know I will be able to repay him as soon as I am gainfully
employed again and making enough money to pay him back.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Freedman, how much money has Mr. Enright
advanced to you since you left Barry & Enright, in November 1958 ?
Mr. Freedman. Oh, approximately around $15,000. I am not quite
sure, but approximately that.
Mr. Springer. Has that been in regular monthly payments?
Mr. Freedman. No. Whenever I needed the money, whenever I
ran out of money, we
Mr. Springer. You have written or contacted Mr. Enright, and
he supplied you with funds ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, yes. He has written to me, or I don't know
how it is, but several times during the year when I ran short of
money, he provided the money. As I say, I intend to and I will pay
liim back.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Freedman, you took your family to Mexico
and have been supporting yourself ever since solely with money sup-
plied by Mr. Enright ; is that correct ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. In the course of your contact and conversations
with Mr. Enright, did he encourage you to go outside the country?
Mr. Freedman. No ; never.
Mr. Springer. He never did ?
Mr. Freedman. I would say he was sorry to see me go to Mexico;
it was unfortunate that I had to go, and at no time did he ever tell
me to leave the country. That was my decision.
Mr. Springer. During this time, after you were indicted, Mr. Freed-
man, you were attempting to evade service and arrest; were you not?
Mr. Freedman. I am sorry. What is that, again ?
Mr. Springer. After the indictment, were you seeking to evade
being tried?
Mr. Freedman. Was I seeking to evade being tried in court?
Mr. Springer. Being tried in court.
Mr. Freedman. I certainly was not. I don't understand the ques-
tion. Was there ever any implication that I
(The question referred to was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Freedman. No, sir.
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Freedman. No, of course not.
Mr. Springer. You later returned before the grand jury and did
purge yourself ?
Mr. Freedman. That is right.
Mr. Springer. And at the present time there is no plan to try you
for perjury in the State of New York ; is that correct ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. You have been assured that if you testify truthfully
in these matters before this subcommittee and cooperate in any further
use that the district attorney has of you, you will not be tried on that
indictment ; is that true ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, I assume so. Yes.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 235
Mr. Springer. Mr. Freedman, it is largely a rumor, very widely a
rumor, that in this whole matter you have been the fall guy. You
know what a fall guy is, do you not 'i
Mr. Freedman. Well, I have heard that myself, sir. I don't think
I have been a fall guy. I think I have been involved in what has
been a most imf ortunate experience. I have admitted to making many
mistakes. We have made many mistakes. I really don't come here
for your sympathy. I come here to help you in any way I can, regard-
ing myself, only asking you not to injure the reputations of the many,
many people who have been on "Twenty-one."
As for my being a fall guy, I am not. I have not been.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Freedman, at the time the grand jury was
getting ready to convene, is it true that you had several conversations
with Mr. Enright as to what you were going to say if you were called
before the grand jury ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes.
Mr. Springer. And you told Mr. Enright you were going to say
that these programs were not fixed ; is that correct ?
Mr. Freedman. I told him — well, all of us were in this boat together.
Mr. Springer. Just answer the question. Did you, yes or no ? And
if you want to qualify it, you may.
Mr. Freedman. I think to the best of my knowledge I told him how
I felt, of my decision. I thinlv I told him of my decision.
Mr. Springer. That you were going to testify that the programs
that you had anything to do with were not fixed ?
Mr. Freedman. Mr. Springer, I had mentioned before the three
reasons why I had been brought into this.
Mr. Springer. Did Mr. Enright tell you how he was going to testify
before the grand juiy ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, I will tell you this. He had discussed it. I
had known of his thinking on the matter. Since he did not appear
before the grand jury, I cannot^
Mr. Springer. Will you strike that answer and be responsive?
Read the question back to him, Mr. Reporter.
( The question referred to was read by the reporter. )
Mr. Freedman. Well, he had discussed it with me. He didn't tell
me, "I am going to say such-and-such to the grand jury," no. But he
had discussed his feelings to me.
Mr. Springer. All right. What was his feeling about testifying be-
fore the grand jury ?
Mr. Freedman. I don't want to be impertinent, Mr. Springer, but
since Mr. Enright is here tonight, I would appreciate
Mr. Springer. I am not asking Mr. Enright. I am asking you,
Mr. Freedman, what Mr. Enright's feeling was about testifying
before the grand jury, and how he was going to testify.
Mr. Freedman. Well, to the best of my knowledge, his feelings
were basically the feelings that I had, too. He wanted to protect the
people working in his organization. He wanted to keep the shows on
the air. And he wanted to protect the reputations of the contestants
on tlie show.
Mr. Springer. A reasonable inference, then, Mr. Freedman, was
that iNIr. Enright was going to give testimony similar to yours?
Mr. Freedman. I really can't make that inference, because at no
time did he say, "I am going to testify such-and-such." He had dis-
236 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
cussed it. I can only give you my feelings as to his discussions. But
at no time, at least that I can remember, did he say, "I am going
to say so-and-so to the grand jury."
Mr. Springer. Your understanding, as I take it, from the answere
to my questions, is that due to the fact that he wanted to protect the
production and protect the people in it, he was going to give testimony
similar to yours.
Mr. Freedman. Those were his feelings on the matter. But as to
what he would have done had he appeared before the grand jury,
I really — I just can't take it upon myself to say he would have done
such-and-such.
Mr. Springer. Did you appear before the grand jury before Mr.
Enright refused to sign a waiver of immunity ?
Mr. Freedman. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. Springer. You did ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Springer, Who was attorney for Enright at that time ?
Mr. Freedman. The attorney for Mr, Enright at the time of the
grand jury investigation ?
Mr. Springer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Freedman. It was to my understanding Mr. Myron Green.
Yes.
Am I right ?
Mr. Springer. Were you present at any conversations that Mr.
Green had with Mr. Enright with reference to testifying before the
grand jury?
Mr. Freedman. Whose testifying before the grand jury ?
Mr. Springer. Either of you.
Mr. Freedman. I had been asked a similar question in the grand
jury, and I had been led to believe that any conversation that I had
■ witli an attorney or my testifying before the grand jury
Mr. Springer. I think the question is very plain.
(The question referred to was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Freedman. Mr. Springer, you mean regarding my testimony
before the grand jury ?
Mr. Springer. Regarding either of you,
Mr. Freedman. Yes, I was.
Mr. Springer. On how many occasions ?
Mr. Freedman. I really can't remember. But I am almost sure I
was.
Mr. Springer. Can you remember on those occasions whether or
not you were advised tliat you should testify that these programs
were not fixed ?
Mr. Freedman. No. I was never advised by any lawyer to give that
type of evidence to the grand jury.
Mr. Springer. On those occasions did Mr. Green advise you and
Mr. Enright that if you told the truth before the grand jin-y there
would be no criminal liability under either State or Federal law ?
Mr. Freedman, If I testified to the grand jury there was no
liability
Mr. Springer. Would you read the question, Mr, Reporter?
(The question referred to was read by the reporter,)
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 237
]Mr. Freed^ian, Well, offhand, I can't remember that segment of
the conversation. I can't remember that as far as the liability. It
may have happened, but I really can't offhand recollect.
JNIr. Sprixger. JSIr. Freedman, you testified that you told some con-
testants ^Yhat the scores would be and when there would be ties. Is it
not fair, in your experience, to assume that you did not give a con-
testant this infoi'mation unless both contestants had been told what to
do and both had been assisted l
Mr. Freedman. No, sir. No.
]Mr. Springer. Did you understand that ?
Mr. Freedman. Well — excuse me.
(Witness confers with his counsel. )
Mr. Freedman. The answer to that question is "No."
Mr. Springer. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Flynt ?
Mr. Flynt. How long did you work as producer after NBC bought
"Twenty-one" ?
Mr. Freedman. How long was I producer of "Twenty-one" after?
Mr. Flynt. After NBC bought it.
Mr. Freedman. I was producer before NBC bought the show.
Mr. Flynt. I know. But how long were you producer afterward ?
Mr. Freedman. I was producer until the end of September 1958.
Mr. Flynt. Did anybody from NBC ever ask you whether any of
the contestants were furnished questions and answers prior to appear-
ance on the program ?
Mr. Freedman. Did anybody from NBC? I don't recollect any
official of NBC asking me. There is no one who ever asked me that I
know of.
Mr. Flynt. Do you remember when Mr, Stempel first made his
charges ?
Mr. Freedman. The first I heard about the Stempel charges was
when I understood he went to the New York Post sometime — I am
not sure about the dates — sometimes in the spring of 1957. And that
is the first time I heard about his charges. OK. That is the time I
heard of his charges.
Mr. Flynt. Was it right after that that NBC bought "Twenty-one"
from Mr. Barry and Mr. Enright?
Mr. Freedman. As far as the dates are concerned, I really am a
little hazy. NBC, I think, bought the show some time in the spring
of 1957.
Mr. Lishman. May 2, 1957.
Mr. Freedman. I think the Stempel charges came out before then.
That would be the best of my recollection.
Mr. Flynt. All right. How soon did they buy the "Twenty-one"
program after Mr. Herbert Stempel made his charges of fraud?
Mr. Freedman. Let me see. If Stempel made his charges around —
well, he didn't make it to NBC. He made it to the New York Post.
Mr. Flynt. But he made his charges public.
Mr. Freedman. I would say 2 months, from March to May. ■
Mr. Flynt. When were you first advised that there was to be a
change in ownership of the program ?
52294— 60— pt. 1 16
238 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Freedman. Well, after the discussions. When the discussions
were undei-way, I knew that there was a possibility of NBC buying
the show.
Mr. Flynt. After what discussions were underway ?
Mr. Freedman. Discussions between Barry & Enright and NBC.
Mr. Fltnt. Was there any connection between those discussions
and the charges made by Mr. Stempel ?
Mr. Freedman. Not to my knowledge. Any connection between?
No.
Mr. Flynt. If anybody from NBC had asked you about that time
were the contestants furnished questions and answers and otherwise
coached, what would you have told them ?
Mr. Freedman. I suppose I can only give you a conjecture at this
time. I suppose I would not have admitted to it. I would probably
have said no.
Mr. Flynt. Did you ever become convinced in your own mind that
the presentation of a program such as this was deceiving the viewing
and listening audience?
Mr. Freedman. Well, you know, I have been thinking a lot about
that in the past year. It is a very difficult question for me to answer.
I can only — I will try to answer it in this way. That in context of
putting on a good show, in the context of tiying to do the best job
you can, I felt during the time that I was producing "Twenty-one"
that I wasn't, or we weren't, harming anybody.
Mr. Flynt. Did you feel that you were- ■
Mr. Freedman. These were just thoughts. I wanted to clarify
my thoughts. At that time, during the time that "Twenty-one" was
on, I couldn't think of — we were not creating harm as far as I could
see then to anyone. We were providing the network with a top rated
show. We were providing the agency and the sponsor with a show
that sold his product. So the network was happy, the sponsor was
happy. The contestants, many of whose lives were changed, were
happy in this, and the audience, who used to watch our show week
after week, from letters we got, they were very happy.
It seems that everybody seemed to be happy in this whole deal.
And at that time I could not see that I was hurting anybody, that we
were destroying or hurting any human beings.
Over the past year, as a result of all tliat has happened, people have
been hurt — contestants, people working in our organization, have been
very hurt. Reputations have been hurt. And as a result of what has
happened, my thinking has changed from what it was last year.
Mr. Flynt. Wei], now, what hurt those reputations? The fact
that a fraudulent show was being put on? Or the fact that the truth
has been brought out now? Which did it?
Mr. Freedman. I am sorry.
Mr. Flynt. You say some reputations have been damaged. Now,
what damaged those reputations? The presentation of a fraudulent
program ? Or the development of the truth ?
Mr. Freedman. I can only answer that by saying that all contest-
ants have been smeared, whether they are guilty or innocent. That
is the unfortunate aspect of it. It is something I guess over which
no one has any control. I am sorry.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 239
Mr. Flynt. This proo^ram that you produced was held out as a bona
fide test of Imowledge ; is that correct ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flynt. What about the announcers that participated on it?
Did they know anything about it ?
Mr. Freedman. No, sir. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. P'lyxt. Now, are you familiar with the statement of Mr. Barry,
which was read into the record today by Mr. Irwin, in which, on one
of the final nights, perhaps the final night, of the presentation of
"Twenty-one," in which he said that any charges that any contestant
had ever been coached or furnished questions and answei^ were en-
tirely false, or substantially that ? And then he said, "I want to em-
phasize and repeat that they were entirely false." Was that a correct
statement ?
Mr. Freedman. No. Mr. Bari-y — I can only answer it this way.
At no time did I ever discuss or tell Mr. Barry anything of the opera-
tion of the show. The statement that Mr. Barry read — well, I had
nothing to do with that statement. And I think Mr. Enright would
be the person who could discuss that statement better than I. I still
think Mr. Enright would be better qualified to discuss that particular
statement.
Mr. Flynt. Were you the producer at that time ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir; I was the producer.
Mr. Flynt. Did you see the statement in advance of its being read
over television?
Mr. Freedman. I think I did, sir.
Mr. Flynt. Did you make any comment, or simply remain mute ?
Mr. Freedman. I remained mute.
Mr. Flynt. Even though you were the producer of the program ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flynt. And you knew that a statement was being made of
which you had advance knowledge ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flynt. And did you know that the statement of Mr. Barry was
false?
Mr. Freedman. My actions during those days, I have told the com-
mittee — my actions, and I guess the actions of other people associated
in this program, were not rational. Now I can see things in a much
clearer light. At that time — when you are very frightened, you often
do things that you later regret and you regret very, very much. It
certainly has changed my life.
Mr. Flynt. Let me ask you this, since you have answered it that
way. "When did you first become frightened over the manner in which
this program was being presented ? And by that I will ask you this,
so that you can be thinking about this in making the answer. Did
that feeling of fright develop gradually, or did tlie feeling of fright
and panic develop only when the grand jury and the district attorney
began to inquire into it ?
Mr. Freedman. The latter, sir.
Mr. Flynt. In other words, until the district attorney's office took
jurisdiction of it, every other act that you did was not inspired by
fright or panic?
Mr. Freedman. No, sir. To be very honest, no. •'<V^" ^
240 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Flynt. In other words, the fact that the district attorney's
office came in brought the feeling of panic and apprehension ?
Mr. Freedman. Well, I saw the whole — when there were so many
factors in jeopardy, the show, the jobs, contestants, my future, every-
thing, I guess I understand now why I was in panic.
Mr. Devine. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Freedman, I am speaking in generalities, now. All these con-
testants that you did assist by giving questions and answers to — did
any of them in your experience as producer of this show ever refuse
to go on the show?
Mr, Freedman. No, sir. I can't remember any instance.
Mr. Devine. Now, let u talk about mechanics for just a minute.
These category cards are apparently concealed behind something on
a rostrum. And Jack Barry jerks them out or something or other.
What is the mechanical setup?
Mr. Freedman. It is a box where each category is in order, is in
place.
Mr. Devine. Who placcb those cards in there ? Wlio did when you
were producer?
Mr. Freedman. My assistant, Miss Rader. I told her the categories
to be placed, the cards and categories, and she followed my instruc-
tions and put them in the box.
Mr. Devine. Are all categories placed in the box ?
Mr. Freedman. The categories that stand by for the evening of
the show, yes.
Mr. Devine. You selected the categories, then, the cards that were
to go in the box ; is that right ?
Mr. Freedman. Mr. Enright and I selected the categories.
Mr. Devine. Did Mr. Bariy know what those were ?
Mr, Freedman. Mr. Barry — yes, he read over the questions before
the show, just so he would know how to pronoimce anything that may
be difficult, any name that may be difficult, and so forth. So he read
the questions so that there would be no difficulty.
Mr. Devine, He knew what would be coming out of the box, then?
Mr, Freedman, Yes,
Mr. Devine. Would he know the order in which they were coming?
Mr. Freedman. No, I don't think so. He glanced over the ques-
tions.
Mr, Devine. During all the time that you were the producer of tihi&
show, did it ever run overtime?
Mr. Freedman. Oh, yes. We had a show where we had to stop.
We had times where we had to sti-etch and other times where we ran
overtime, to my knowledge.
Mr. Devine. Did that happen frequently?
Mr. Freedman, No, I don't think so,
Mr. Devine. Your answer is "No" ?
Mr. Freedman. No, I can't remember.
Mr. Devine. Do you know whether Mr. Barry had any knowledge
of any advance information ?
Mr. Freedman. To the best of my knowledge, he didn't. I didn't
tell liim as to the mechanics of the show. As to what he understood
about the show, I don't know. I never really discussed it with Mr.
Barry.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 241
Mr. Devine. Did he know in advance at what point number a con-
testant would elect to stop i
Mr. Fkeedman. No, he had no idea.
Mr. Devine. That is all.
Mr. Springer. Mr. Freedman, after you talked with Mr. Van Doren
prior to his appearance before the grand juiy, did you report the
conversation to Mr. Enrio;ht?
Mr. Freedman. I don't know. I think I did, yes.
Mr. LisHMAN. I had one question.
Mr. Freedman, after you had finished testifying before the grand
jury the second time, did you report back to Mr. Enright and tell him
the substance of what you had testified to -iefore the grand jury?
Mr. Freedman. I think I did, yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you tell him
Mr. Freedman. I didn't report back. No. Wlien I met him — I
don't remember when it was, but I did tell him in substance. Excuse
me. He knew I was going back.
Mr. Lishman. Did you tell him that ^oxi had testified before the
grand juiy and named names of contestants to whom you had given
the questions and answers m advance on "Twenty-one"?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. I have no more questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Freedman, on behalf of the committee, I want
to thank you for your appearance here and your testimony. Now, we
have several other witnesses wiio are scheduled to appear, including
witnesses on the other show, which you had a lot to do with.
Mr. Freedman. Mr. Chairman, I really worked a very short time
on this other show. My contact was not with contestants. It was
such a brief period that I just did writing with the show. And the
brief episodes that I had mentioned were very inadvertent. It was
not my normal duty. So I know very little of the operation of that
show, because I had been on the show for such a brief period.
The Chairman. Well, we have a good many witnesses here that
are scheduled. And they are witnesses who requested to be heard.
Now, in view of this, and since you have been cooperative, I feel
justified, on behalf of the coimnittee, to ask you to wait until we do
conclude and see if there are questions that would be appropriate.
Mr. Freedman. Mr. Chairman, I plead
The Chairman. I think that is in keeping with the procedure with
reference to these hearings.
Mr. Freedman. Excuse me. What show are you referring to now ?
The Chairman. I am referring to other witnesses that are to appear
in comiection with these hearings.
Mr. Freedman. On what show, sir? Could I ask you what show
it is, Mr, Chairman ?
The Chairman. We are now, of course, and have been for 2 days,
on "Twenty-one." And we have got some other shows we have not
gotten to yet, some of which you testified to here tonight.
Now, I know you are anxious to get back home.
Mr. Freedman. I am very anxious. I have been away for a week.
The Chairman. Yes. I know. And we have tried every way to
get in touch with you, too, during that week. And if you had been
242 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
as cooperative during that week as you have today, we could have
expedited this a great deaL
Mr. Freedman. My wife and children are by themselves, and I
would really appreciate answering any questions — If there is any-
thing else, I really would. I feel that the main part of my job was —
I spent most of my time with "Twenty-one" and I feel I have told you
everything that you have wanted to know on this show.
The Chairman. It is entirely possible that we might need some
more questions on "Twenty-one." That is the point.
Mr. Freedman. Well, could I go back to Mexico City, and then you
could call me back if you need me? I would appreciate that very
much. I came up here as a volunteer, Mr. Chairman, and I would ap-
preciate it, if I had your cooperation, to stay with my family.
The Chairman. Well, you are receiving our cooperation, and we
are asking yours in the spirit of the procedure that has been a part of
these hearings.
Now, Mr. Murphy, I would like to say to you, as his comisel, under
the circumstances, that the members of the committee have expressed
a desire for Mr. Freedman to be available with appropriate questions
under the procedure in connection with these hearings. Now, I cannot
see why, in view of the fact that Mr. Freedman has been here a week,
and w^e have been trying to locate him and we have been unable to do
so — why he should be at this time in such a hurry to leave before we
complete this job. We are going to conclude these hearings Friday, if
we have to have more late night sessions. And I do not like to stay
here this late, very frankly.
Mr. Murphy. I think Mr. Freedman has been available at least
since Monday at any time the committee wanted him, and I believe
this has been known to the committee staff.
The Chairman. I will say for your own knowledge that Mr. Freed-
man has not been avaiJable to this committee until this morning.
Mr. Murphy. Sir, Mr. Freedman, as I understand it, agreed that
he would come on Monday if it was wanted to take his testimony on
Monday ; that he would come on Monday evening if it was wanted to
take his testimony on Monday evening; and on Tuesday evening if
his testimony was wanted then ; on this evening, when he is here. I
was going to say, sir, that you are as fully apprised of his situation
as I am. His wife and two small daughters are in Mexico City by
themselves. He has been away from them a week. He says he is
anxious to get back to them. He has asked if it might be if further
questions were asked of him that he might return ijf he were asked
to come back.
The Chairman. Well, now, under the procedure, which you and I
have discussed as late as this morning, it would seem to me if there
are any other questions — and obviously there could be; I do not say
there are. I applaud Mr. Freedman's willingness to be hel]5ful, as he
has, under the circumstances. In doing so, I think he should be will-
ing to be helpful until we all do that job that we have been responsible
for. And I certainly do not think that is an unreasonable request.
Mr. Freedman. Mr. Harris, I want to cooperate with the commit-
tee to the fullest extent. I hope I have cooperated this evening. I
haven't kept anything back. When the committee staff contacted my ■
attorney, they knew very well that I did not have to come down here. I
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 245
And to be very honest with you, I was very reluctant. I didn't have
to. I have suffered enougli during this last year. Believe me, I
have suffered tremendously. I couldn't find work. I would ap-
preciate this being off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LisHMAN. Mr. Freedman, in answering some questions of Mr.
Springer, am I correct in understanding your testimony to be that in
no instance where you offered to furnish advance questions and
answers to a contestant was it refused ?
Mr. Freedman. That's right.
Mr. LisHMAN. But is it also a fact that on some occasions some of
these contestants to whom you made this offer initially refused to ga
along with that ?
Mr. Freedman. They were reluctant to.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And did you attempt to persuade them by appeals
to considerations other than monetary rewards?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you appeal to their altruistic motives, in that
they would have the opportmiity on a national network to set forth
certain messages to the American people which would help them
either in their educational pursuits or help them in their medical
troubles and so on ?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LiSHMAN. I will rephrase it. Did you offer them the induce-
ment or the altruistic purpose that they could serve in adavncing the
cause of humanity in various lines of endeavor, and in which you
knew the contestants were especially interested ?
JSfr. Freedman. This was one of the considerations I had men-
tioned to several. It was taken into consideration. But I am not a
supersalesman. I didn't club anj^body over the head.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Did you tell them that they could advance causes
in which they were interested for the good of mankind by appearing
on this program ?
I will rephrase it. Did you offer as inducements the opportunity
to certain of these contestants that if they appeared they would be
able to advance worthy causes for the benefit of mankind ? Worthy
causes ?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Chairman, I am trying to show that all kinds
of appeals to the best instincts of people were used to get them on
this program.
Mr. Goodwin. They were refused in some instances on more than
one occasion. And this gentleman here before us repeatedly went
back to them and tempted them with these altruistic baits. And I do
not think that should be left out of our record.
(Discussion off the record.)
The Chairman. Were there inducements offered to contestants that
would appeal to them in the furtherance of knowledge, information,
and assistance to the people ?
Mr. Freedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And did you use that type of appeal to them in order
to overcome their scruples against engaging in receipt of advance
questions and answers from you ?
244 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr, Freedman. I would like to have that over again.
(The question referred to was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Freedman. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you also tell these contestants that, after all, this
was only entertainment and everybody was doing it ?
Mr. Freedman. I may have said that ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. You can stand aside.
Mr. Enright ?
Will you be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give to this committee will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Enright. I do.
The Chairman. You may have a seat.
State your full name, Mr. Enright.
TESTIMONY OF DANIEL ENRIGHT; ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, CHARLES MURPHY
Mr. Enright. My full name is Daniel Enright.
The Chairman. And your address ?
Mr. Enright. 19 Colvin Eoad, Scarsdale, N.Y.
The Chairman. And what is your business or profession ?
Mr. Enright. Well, I am a producer of television programs.
The Chairman. Mr. Lishman, would you care to proceed with this?
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Enright, how long were you the producer for the
show "Twenty-one" ?
Mr. Enright. I was supervisor-producer from its inception until its
demise.
Mr. Lishman. And what period of time did that cover ?
Mr. Enright. September, 1956, to October, 1958.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Enright, Mr. Freedman has just testified, and
you were here while he was testifying, and he stated that after the
second time that he had appeared before the New York County grand
jury, he had come back to you and told you the substance of his testi-
mony before the grand jury and had told you that he had given the
names of contestants to whom he had given in advance questions and
answers.
Mr. Enright. That is right.
Mr. Lishman. Was his testimony before the grand jury true and
correct ?
Mr. Enright. I cannot tell you, sir, because actually I don't recall
what he testified to. The general impression was that he testified to
the truth. And I can't verify what liis testimony was.
Mr. Lishman. Could we go off the record ?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Lishman. To the best of your knowledge, was the statement
made to you by Mr. Freedman concerning the substance of his testi-
mony before the grand jury true?
Mr. Em right. To the best of my knowledge.
INIr. Lishman. Now, was it your idea to fix these contestants on
"Twentv-one" ?
Mr. Enright. Wliat contestants are you referring to? Can we
specify them by name ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 245
Mr. LisHMAN. Well, Mr. Freednian has testified that wlien he first
came, as producer, to "Twenty-one," he just went ahead furnishing
questions and answers in advance to the contestants, on the assump-
tion that that was the way the show should be run. Now, that would
seem to me, for a new employee, to be a very laro-e assumption. And
I must say that, or suggest, that someone in authority must have told
him to do that. Did you tell him to do it?
Mr. Enright. Well, this has been a subject of debate or discussion
between ]Mr. Freedman and me for the past six months, as to who
initiated the idea between us. And frankly, none of us have a recol-
lection. To me it doesn't matter. For the sake of the record, and
just to minimize time, I will assume responsibility for it.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was it your idea originally, when the show started,
that this practice should be engaged in ?
Mr. Enright. It was my decision to engage in this practice, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you furnish questions and answers in advance
to Mr. Stempel ?
Mr. Enright. I did.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you furnish questions and answ^ers in advance
to ;Mr. Jackman ?
Mr, Enright. I did.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you furnish questions and and answers in ad-
vance to other contestants ?
Mr. Enright. One or two more, to the best of my recollection.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you coach them on how to act when they ap-
peared on the program?
Mr. Enright. I did.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And have you had the opportunity of reading the
testimony of the witness Stempel ?
Mr. Enright. Yes, I did.
Mr. Lishman. And is his testimony concerning how he was
coached accurate?
Mr. Enright. To the best of my recollection, yes.
Mr. Lishman. And is that same thing true of the other contestants
who have testified concerning coaching by you ?
Mr. Enright. Well, the only other contestant I recall who testified
was Jackman. To the best of my recollection, I did give Jackman
questions and answers in advance. I told him what numbers to
choose in advance. To the best of my recollection, I told him what
mannerisms to use.
Mr. Lishman. Whj did you give Mr. Jackman $15,000, instead of
the announced winnings of $24,500 ?
Mr. Enright. I can only attribute it to stupidity and indiscretion.
Mr. Jackman appeared at my office after he had been on the show, and
told me that he preferred to go off the show. And there was discus-
sion of moneys between us. I urged him to take this sum of money,
because I told him it was his money. He didn't want to take that
amount of money. And then, as I recall, he suggested that he would
take $15,000. And very stupidly, I agreed to it.
Mr. Lishman. Why was that stupid ?
Mr. Enright. Why ? Because he had reached the sum of $24,500.
The records called for him to receive $24,500. It creates embarrass-
ment and obviously cast reflections on me, in that he had received less
than was announced.
246 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LisHMAN. Mr. Enright, did you have occasion to have meet-
ings with Mr. Rosenhouse from time to time ?
Mr. Enright. Yes, sir. And, Mr. Lishraan, may I amplify my
former statement, to the effect that of the $24,500 which was sup-
posedly awarded to Mr. Jackman, he retained $15,000, and the balance
of the money was retained by the sponsor. It was not retained by any
of us.
I am sorry, sir. May I have your question regarding Mr. Rosen-
house?
Mr. LisHMAN. From time to time would you have meetings either
at lunch, dinner, or at other times, with Mr. Rosenhouse ?
Mr. Enright. Not frequently, no.
Mr. LisHMAN. I said from time to time.
Mr. Enright. Very infrequently. A'^ery infrequently.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And who was Mr. Rosenhouse ?
Mr. Enright. Mr. Rosenhouse was the president of Pharmaceuti-
cals, Inc.
Mr. Lishman. And did you have discussions with Mr. Rosenhouse
as to the contestants on the TV quiz show "Twenty-one"?
Mr. Enright. I don't recall any such discussions.
Mr. Lishman. Did Mr. Rosenhouse indicate to you what contestants
the sponsor desired to be continued on the program ?
Mr. Enright. No; never.
Mr. Lishman. At no time ?
Mr. Enright. Never did Mr. Rosenhouse so indicate.
Mr. Lishman. Did you have any meetings with Mr. Kletter?
Mr. Enright. Yes, I used to meet with Mr. Kletter or speak on
the phone with him.
Mr. Lishman. Did either Mr. Rosenhouse or Mr. Kletter ever say to
you words to the effect, "I hope that so-and-so who is now on the pro-
gram, will continue on for some time. They seem to have great
audience appeal" ? Or words to that effect ?
Mr. Enright. I don't recall Mr. Rosenhouse ever saying it.
Mr. Lishman. Did Mr. Kletter ever say it ?
Mr. Enright. He might have, yes. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. Lishman. He has so testified.
Mr. Enright. Well, then, I would have to go by his testimony. You
are asking me for my testimony, Mr. Lishman. And the best I can
say is that he might have. I am not denying it.
Mr. Lishman. Would you take into consideration the wislies of the
sponsor in this regard, in regard to conducting these so-called con-
tests of knowledge ?
Mr. Enright. I might take them into consideration, but they would
not serve as the determining decision.
Mr. Lishman. Well, what criteria did you use when you decided
that a certain contestant should stay on the program?
Mr. Enright. The appeal of the contestant to the audience, the ex-
citement that that particular contestant could generate.
Mr. Irishman. I)id the ratings have anything to do with it?
Mr. Enright. The ratings were an offshoot of that. Presumably
if you were to produce a good show, an entertaining show, you would
have a higher rating.
Mr. Lishman. A\niat criteria did you use when you decided that a
•certain contestant should be taken off the program?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 247
Mr. Enrtoiit. IMainly that he had outworn his attractiveness as a
contestant, his appeal as a contestant.
Mr. LisHMAN. Well, in the case of ISIr. Snodgrass, was that the
reason why you took him off the program ?
INIr. ExRiGiiT. I am tiying to answer it, sir. May I go off the record
and explain why it was done? Then you can determine what the
problem is.
Mr. LisHMAK. Well, is your answer going to involve someone else ?
INIr. Enrigiit. Can I go off the record, sir? And you decide.
Mr. LiSHMAX. I will ask the chairman.
The Chatrmax. All right. You may.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LisHMAx. ^Miat were the criteria other than the ones that you
have described, for removing contestants from the program ?
Mr. ExRiGiiT. A contestant might be brought on the program for
the purpose of tying with an incumbent contestant, and it would be
determined that he would play a certain number of games, at the end
of which he would lose, or at the end of which the incumbent might
lose.
Mr. LisH^iAX. If a contestant refused to follow his advance in-
structions, would that be a ground for removing him from a program?
]\Ir. ExRiGHT. I never recall that happening, sir.
Mr. Ltshmax. Except in the case of Snodgrass.
Mr. ExRiGiiT. He was not removed from the program. He was
supposed to have been removed from the program "uhen he didn't
follow his instructions, so he just delayed his removal by a week.
Mr. LiSHMAX. Did you rush into Mr. Snodgrass' booth after the
commercial, after he had given the right answer when he was sup-
posed to give the wrong answer ?
Mr. ExRiGiiT. I do not recall. I have read the testimony of Mr.
Snodgrass to that effect, and I don't recall that at all. I do not recall
coming down to the isolation booth.
Mr. LISH3IAX. Do you recall having a conversation with Mr. Snod-
grass following that program ?
Mr. ExRiGHT. To what effect ?
Mr. LisiiMAx. I am asking you whether you had the conversation.
Then we will come to the effect.
]Mr. ExRiGTiT. He testified that he and I conversed in the press
room of NBC, and I remember that conversation, yes. I told him
that apparently we had made an error, and that this might require
us to play another game.
Mr. Ltshmax. Did you also say to him in effect that perhaps it
was not so bad after all, since in effect you would be able to recoup
some of the unanticipated loss that was involved in the $73,000 which
was won as a result of his failure to give the wrong answer ?
Mr. ExRiGHT. No. I do not recall discussing budget with Mr.
Snodgrass.
]\Ir. LisHMAX. In your talks with Mr, Rosenhouse and Mr. Kletter
of the sponsor, did you discuss what controls would be used in order
to keep within the budget allocation of prize money?
Mr. ExRiGiiT. No, sir, I never discussed that with either Mr. Klet-
ter or with Mr. Rosenhouse.
Mr. LiSHMAx. Did Mr. Rosenhouse or Mr. Kletter ever have any
knowledge that you were exercising controls in this program ?
248 nSWESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Enright. Not to my knowledge, sir.
jyir. LiSHMAX. JNIr. Enright, in the summer of 1957, was your at-
tention called to the fact tliat Mr. Stempel was threatening to expose
the situation through a newspaper in New York?
Mr. Enright. That's right.
Mr. LisHMAN. And what did you do when you first received that
news ?
Mr. ExRTGHT. Well, it was not in the summer, as I recall. It was
in late winter of 1957. It was after he attempted to blackmail me
that he went to the New York Post and gave them the story. When
I found out about it, I consulted with our public relations people and
my lawj'er,
Mr. Ltshmax. From whom did you learn about this story?
Mr. Enright. I forget. As I recall, a New York Post reporter
called our office trying to locate Mr. Stempel.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Dicl Mr. Franklin tell you about a call he had re-
ceived from a friend on a newspaper ?
Mr. Enright. I do not recall. As I recall, the phone call from the
New York Post tried to locate ]Mr. Stempel. It came to us a week
after he came in to blackmail me, and from that I deduced tliat he
had gone to the New York Post. As I recall, I advised Mr. Franklin
of that. Now, whether he received the phone call or not, I do not
recall.
Mr. Ltshman. After this information, did you have a meeting with
representatives of NBC ?
]\fr. Enright. No, sir. Not after this bit of mformation.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did vou ever have a conference which was attended
by Mr. Eiges and ]Mr. Moore of NBC and Mr. Franklin ?
Mr. Enright. Yes. I did. That took place, sir, after Stempel went
to the Journal-American.
Mr. LisHMAN. And about when was that conference?
Mr. Enright. That was, as I recall, sometime in mid-September
of 1957.
Mr. LisHMAN. And at that meeting, did you discuss what should be
done in order to minimize the impact of the exposure in a newspaper
article?
Mr. Enright. Yes.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you tell Mr. Eiges that Mr. Stempel's story
was untrue and false?
Mr. Enright. Not to my recollection.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you tell anybody at that meeting that Mr.
Stempel's storv "^as true or untrue, false ?
Mr. Enright. Not to my recollection. But in all fairness, sir, from
my conduct one would infer that his story was untrue and false. I
am sure I acted very indignant.
Mr. Lishman. Did Mr. Eiges ask vou if Mr. Stempel's storv was
true?
Mr. Enright. No.
Mr. Lishman. Did Mr. !Moore ask vou if Mr. Stempel's storv was
true?
]\rr. Enright. Not to my recollection.
Mr. Lishman. Did anybody at that meeting ask you that question?
Mr. Enright. No. No.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 249
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you hear anyone at that meetino; ask that ques-
tion of anyone else ? Is Mr. Stcmpel's story true ?
Mr. Enkight. No. And I think that question would have been
properly referred to me, inasmuch as I had been accused of having
glA^en questions and answers.
Mr. LisHMAx. What did you discuss at this meeting, if you were
not interested in having made known to the i'e]3resentatives of NBC
that JMr. Stempel's story was true, or untrue ? What did you discuss ?
Mr. Enright. How to avoid having the story.
Mr. LisHMAN. How to avoid having any story, irrespective of
whether it was true or false ?
Mr. Enright. That is right.
Mr. LisHMAx. And what measures did you decide to adopt in or-
der to prevent the publishing of any story, irrespective of whether
it was true or false ?
Mr. Enright. Well, I am laboring, unfortunately, under the im-
pressions I gained from reading Mr. David's and Mr. Franklin's tes-
timony today, so I am not sure whether that is my true reflection or
whether I am not being impressed by them. I would think what Mr.
Davis testified to regarding the decision to just stay put would be
what was decided at the time. I also recall that Mr. Eiges was going
to make some phone calls to determine what the Journal-American
intended to do about the matter. And the meeting ran for about 2
hours and got nowhere, actually.
Mr. LiSHMAx. Was this conference subsequent to the time you had
sold the properties to the NBC for more than $2 million ?
Mr. Exright. That is right.
Mr. Lishman. After this meeting, did you have any other confer-
ences with representatives of NBC ?
Mr. Exright. Eegarding, I imagine, this Stempel issue ?
Mr. Lishmax. Regarding Stempel. Or anything about the quiz
show being fixed.
Mr. Exright. Well, of course, other than the conferences that en-
sued with the district attorney's entry into this matter, I think there
was one in Tom Ervin's office. And there, again, I think I am being
influenced by Mr. Ervin's testimony, but I can't recall otherwise.
Mr. Lishmax. Was that the night of the day the Stempel story
broke in the newspapers?
jMr. Exright. No, no. I think that might have taken place after
the Journal- American issue. For personal clarity, may I suggest that
there be three periods separate from each other. There was a period
of the New York Post. Then there was a period of the Journal-
American.
Mr. Lishmax. Can you give the approximate dates?
Mr. Exright. Of the New York Post?
Mr. Lishmax. The first one.
Mr. Exright. Yes. The New York Post took place sometime in
March of 1957. The Journal American took place in September of
1957. And the one which involved the district attorney of New York
took place at the end of August 1958.
j\Ir. Lishmax. Well, in connection with the second meeting 3^011 had
with representatives of the NBC, who was present ?
250 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Enright. You are referring now to the meeting with Tom
Ervin ?
Mr. LisHMAX. Referring to the meeting with whom ?
Mr. Enright. There was a meeting with Sid Eigus and Moore.
Mr. LisHMAN. That is the first meeing, as I miderstand it.
Mr. Enright. Which was in the New York Journal- American.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And that was around September ?
Mr. Enright. Of 1957.
Mr. LiSHMAN. There was a subsequent meeting to that between you
and representatives of NBC ?
Ml*. Enright. As I recall, yes, still regarding the Journal- American
issue.
Mr. Lishman. And about when did that second meeting, take place ?
Mr. Enright. I don't know. I imagine within days of the meeting
with Mr. Eigus.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And who attended this second meeting?
Mr. Enright. To the best of my recollection, it was my attorney and
Mr. Ervin.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Just you, your attorney
Mr. Enright. To the best of my recollection
Mr. LiSHMAN. And what happened at that meeting?
Mr. Enright. Just^and I recall it very, very vaguely — just a gen-
eral discussion as to how to cope with the matter. And I forget the
details.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did Mr. Ervin ask you if Stempel's story was true
or false?
Mr. Enright. I do not recall Mr. Ervin ever asking me that ques-
tion, but in all fairness to Mr. Ervin, I should state that from my con-
duct he could properly infer that the statement was false,
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you ever tell Mr. Ervin that it was false ?
Mr. Enright. I might have told him tliat after the district attorney
entered the case.
Mr. Lishman. No; at this meeting. Let us go along with one
meeting at a time.
Mr. Enright. To the best of my recollection. I am not here to
represent Mr. Ervin, but in all fairness to him, he could deduce
from my conduct that it was false.
Mr. Lishman. What was your conduct from which he could make
such a deduction ?
INIr. Enright. Well, that we were dealing with a sick man, with
a blackmailer, with an irrational person.
Mr. Lishman. And at the time that you were conducting yourself
so as to give that impression, you knew full well that you had been
giving questions and answers in advance to Mr. Stempel; is that
correct ?
Mr. Enright. That's right, yes.
Mr. Lishman. But you never told that to Mr. Ervin or anyone con-
nected with NBC ?
INIr. Enright. No, I did not.
Mr. Lishman. You never did ?
Mr. Enright. I did not.
Mr. Lishman. Were you ever asked by anyone at NBC whether
you had given questions and answers in advance to Mr. Stempel?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 251
Mr. Enright. Not to my recollection. But there, again, it might,
be fair for them to deduce from my conduct that I had not given them
questions and answers.
Mr. LisHMAN. Why did you suggest that there should be a psy-^
chiatric twist to be given to the Stempel situation?
Mr. Enright. I suggested a psychiatric — I do not recall ever mak-^
ing that suggestion.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Well, who did ?
Mr. Enright. I don't recall anyone ever making that suggestion.
Are you referring now to — what, specifically?
Mr. LisHMAN. Well, Mr. Ervin's testimony was that you had re-
ferred Mr. Stempel to a different psychiatrist.
Mr. Enright. Oh, I am sorry. I misunderstood your question-
Can you rephrase it, sir ?
Mr. LisHMAN. Well, I asked: Why did you suggest to the NBC
people this psychiatric twist in which to dispel the impact of the cor-
rectness of StempePs story ?
Mr. Enright. Well, "psychiatric twist" has a connotation of be-
ing an untruth.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I will rephrase the question.
Mr. Enright, Will you, please ?
Mr. Lishman. Why did you suggest to the representatives of
NBC that they should not pay any attention to Stempel because he
was in need of psychiatric treatment ?
Mr. Enright. I don't know whether I suggested it. I might have
implied it. But I don't know whether I verbally suggested it.
Mr. Lishman. Did you state that Stempel was a madman?
Mr. Enright. I stated that Stempel needed psychiatric care, yes.
Mr. Lishman. And you say that this meeting took place only a few
days after the first meeting ?
Mr. Enright. I am going by Mr. Ervin's testimony. I do not recall
when it took place, but I understand he testified to that effect.
Mr. Lishman. What do you recall ?
Mr. Enright. I have no recollection, sir.
Mr. Lishman. Now, when was the next meeting you had with rep-
resentatives of NBC ?
Mr. Enright. Well, the most important meeting that comes to
mind, of course, is the one that took place on the evening when the
World-Telegram broke the story on Stenipel.
Mr. Lishman. Who attended that meeting ?
Mr. Enright. To the best of my recollection, there were Mr. Bilby^
Mr. Ervin, Mr. Franklin, Mr. Davis, Mr. Cohn, and me.
Mr. Lishman. Did anyone at that meeting ask you whether Mr.
Stempel's story was true or false?
Mr. Enright. No.
Mr. Lishman. Did anyone at that meeting ask you whether you
had ever given questions and answers in advance to Mr. Stempel ?
Mr. Enright. Not to my recollection.
Mr. Lishman. Did you deny that you had ever given questions and
answers in advance to Mr. Stempel ?
Mr. Enright. I might have. I do not recall. I might have. And
the least I did was to conduct myself in a very indignant and very
excitable fashion, simply because I was excitable. I was excited at
252 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
the time, rather. Both Mr. Bilby and Mr. Ervin would have full rea-
son to infer from my conduct that the story was wrong. And I might
have also denied it. I don't recall, but I might have.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you have any reason to believe that the NBC
representatives knew that controls were being exercised on this show ? '
Mr. Enright. I will try to answer it to the best of my ability. I
cannot go on knowledge. I can only go on assumption. And assump-
tions are quite frequently unfair.
I think, being in an industry for 20 or 25 years, you would have
to be very unsophisticated or very naive not to miderstand that certain
controls have to be exercised. Now, the extent of the controls is some-
thing else. As to what NBC knew, I cannot testify to firsthand. I
would assume that certainly the sophisticated employees in their pro-
gram department would realize that some controls have to be ex-
ercised.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Well, did the demeanor of the NBC representatives
lead you to believe that they knew that controls were being exercised
on this show ?
Mr. Enright. No.
Mr. LisHMAN. Do you have any information that NBC officials
knew that controls were being exercised on this or on any other show ?
Mr. Enright. No, I had no such information.
Mr. LisHMAN. Do you have any similar information concerning
CBS officials?
Mr. Enright. You are referring now to firsthand information, first-
hand knowledge ?
Mr. Lishman. Yes.
Mr. Enright. No, I do not.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Enright, did you instruct Mr. Freedman to con-
tact the contestants before they appeared before the district attorney.
Mr. Enright. Not to my recollection, no.
Mr. Lishman. Well, did you understand that Mr. Freedman was
contacting them ?
Mr. Enright. Yes, I did.
Mr. Lishman. And did he report back to you the result of his con-
tacts ?
Mr. Enright. To the best of my recollection, he did.
Mr. Lishman. What was the purpose of these contacts ?
Mr. Enright. Well, I think it comprised a double purpose. I think
there were certain instances in which Mr. Freedman felt that the con-
testants were very anxious to know his attitude on this issue. And
certainly Mr. Freedman wanted to know what their attitude was. I
wanted to know, too.
Mr. Lishman. Did you contact any contestant yourself, personally,
before they appeared before the district attorney.
Mr. Enright. Did I directly make the first contact? Not to my
recollection. I do not recall.
Mr. Lishman. Did you speak to Mr. Jackman ?
Mr. Enright. Oh, yes. I am sorry.
Mr. Lishman. And what was the substance of your conversation
with Mr. Jackman at that time ?
Mr. Enright. It was to the effect of what he would tell the district
attorney when he was called down to the DA's office.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 253
Mr. LisHMAN. And wliat did you tell liim ?
Mr. Enright. I didn't tell him. I asked him what he was going to
say to the district attorney. To the best of my recollection, he re-
plied that he was going to tell the truth.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Is it a fair inference that it was intended that when
Mr. Freedman informed these contestants that he was going to give
false answers in the district attorney's office as to the contestants, it
would induce them to do otherwise?
Mr. Enright. I don't know whether it would necessarily induce
them. You have to remember that just as we were terribly anxious
Qot to have to reveal the contestants, there were contestants who were
very anxious not to reveal what they had done on the programs. And
quite possibly they wanted assurances from Mr. Freedman that he
would not testify as to their identity.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Franklin and Mr. Davis were employed by
you?
Mr. Enright. That is right.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And did you have a meeting with Mr. Davis in com-
pany with a lawyer named Slote prior to his appearance before the
district attorney?
Mr. Enright. Mr. Davis, Mr. Franklin, and Mr. Slote. The four
of us were together, yes.
Mr. Lishman. Do you recall those meetings?
Mr. Enright. Yes, I do. Yes.
Mr. Lishman. Can you state what advice was given to Mr. Davis
by Mr. Slote at that meeting ?
Mr. Enright. As I recall, that particular meeting concerned itself
with Mr. Franlvlin's being subpenaed. I never recall Mr. Davis being
subpenaed by the grand jury.
Mr. Lishman. I am not talking about any subpena. I am talking
about before their appearance before the district attorney.
Mr. Enright. "WHiat I was leading up to was the fact that the meet-
ing occupied itself with Mr. Franklin. I do not recall it occupying
itself with Mr. Davis. Mr. Slote asked Mr. Franklin what his recol-
lection was insofar as Mr. Stempel was concerned.
Yes ; you are right. He also asked Mr. Davis as to what his recol-
lection was insofar as Mr. Stempel was concerned. They told him,
and he then said that he thought he should pursue the matter in pri-
vate meetings with them.
Mr. Lishman. At any meeting at which you were present, did Mr.
Slote advise Mr. Davis or Mr. Franldin or both that they should either
perjure themselves or leave the country?
Mr. Enright. Not to my recollection, sir. In fact, I am pretty
certain, I am certain, that did not happen when I was there.
Mr. Lishman. In addition to furnishing the questions and answers
in advance to Mr. Stempel, did you furnish the questions and answers
in advance to any other contestants on "Twenty-one" ?
Mr. Enright. To Mr. Jackman.
Mr. Lishman. Did you furnish them to anyone else ?
Mr. Enright. To one man who played against Stempel and lost.
Mr. Lishman. Well, is it fair to say that you were the guiding hand
of the program and its control ?
Mr. Enright. Yes, sir.
52294— 60— pt. 1 17
254 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS i
i
Mr. LiSHMAN. I have no further questions. I
Mr. Mack. Did you have something further that you wanted to|
say?
Mr. Enrigiit. Yes, just for the matter of the record, Mr. Jackman,
I understand, stated today or rather implied, that he had not sued
us or that he had not collected the $9,500. xVs a matter of fact, he filed
the suit 9 or 10 months ago, and we had told him that we would not
be able to pay him the $9,500 until the grand jury was dismissed.
Upon dismissal of the grand jury he was paid the $9,500.
May I — I am sorry.
Mr. Mack. You said the sponsor retained this money. So Mr. Jack-
man must have been paid by the sponsor. Is that right ?
Mr. Enright. That is right.
Mr. Mack. The sponsor made the check out to Mr. Jackman ?
Mr. Enrigiit. No. The process was that the sponsor would send us
the money, and we would then deposit it in the account and pay out }
of that account all prize moneys due contestants. We would then to
my recollection account each week for the amounts of money paid out
that week to the sponsor.
Mr. Mack. You accounted each week rather than at the end of the
13-week period ?
Mr. Enright. That is right. At the beginning, the first few weeks
of the show, we might have knocked out each week, because it took
us a certain amount of money to get our bookkeeping set up. But
once our program got set up, we would get out a memo each week.
In fact, copies were given to the district attorney's office in New
York, accountings for each payment.
Mr. Mack. So that you had an accounting at the end of each
week?
Mr. Enright. Not an accounting, but a report, A report was made
to the sponsor as to the amounts of money paid out that week. Then
in return, periodically we would get an accounting from the sponsor,
and we would tally it.
Mr. Mack. Was this before or after NBC purchased ?
Mr. Enright. This was before NBC purchased. Afterward all
such negotiations took place between NBC and the sponsor.
Mr. Mack. And you share Mr. Freedman's view that it made no
difference after that time how much money was spent because of
NBC's taking care of it ?
Mr. Enright. No, sir. I can't. Simply because the job of Mr.
Freedman was to ])roduce a program. My job was not only to suj^er-
vise production of the progi-am, but to be accountable for all moneys
expended, so that I could not be divorced from that particular issue.
Mr. Mack. You did exert effort to remain within your budget even
after NBC purchased the program ?
Mr. Enright. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mack, Now, why did you consult with the sponsor when you
gave certain advances to the contestants ?
Mr. Enright. Simply because I felt that it was his money I was
paying out, and that conceivably, if we had paid someone beyoiid the
money that was due him, and we had run, let's say, under budget, I
felt, "This is money that the sponsor will be paying for," and I would
have to obtain his approval before he spent his money. Conceivably
he might have been paying that money.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 255
Mr. Mack. Would that be in the event that you exceeded your
budget ?
Mr. Enright. No. In the event that we exceeded the budget, the
arrangement was that we woukl have to accept the surphis ourselves
and pay for the excevSS ourselves. But in the event that we were on
budget, then the question would arise, "Who is going to pay for the
advance given, let's say, to a contestant who never received that money
in his final winnings'?" If he was advanced, say, $5,000 and they
only wind u]) with $3,000, who woidd take care of the balance of
$2,000 ? And I felt I needed the sponsor's approval of that if I were
to include that in ni}^ reports to him each week.
Mr. Mack, So as not to prolong the questioning, why did you make
such advances? Was that because of request of the contestant?
Mr. Enright. In the instance of Mr. Stempel, it was at his request.
Mr. Mack. It was at his request ?
Mr. Enright. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mack. And that was after you entered into the agreement, or
after the time that you had coached him on the program ?
Mr. Enright. That's right.
Mr. Mack. Could it have been that he was concerned about the pos-
sibility that he might lose the money at some point along the way?
Mr. Enright. I don't know what his concern was. He just came
to me twice and each time said, "Unless you give me" — and he cited
a figure — -"unless you give me that figure, I am leaving the program."
Mr. Mack. Then why did you advance the money to Mr. Van
Doren ?
Is that a fair question?
Why did you advance the money to Mr. Van Doren ?
Mr. Enright. It was done at the recommendation of Mr. Freed-
man, who told me that Mr. Van Doren would have to quit the show
with the money he was then earning. And Mr. Freedman suggested
that we advance him the $5,000 in order to induce him to stay on the
program.
Mr. Mack. And did Mr. Freedman indicate why Mr. Van Doren
was going to quit the program if the money was not available?
Mr. Enright. Apparently he needed a certain amount of money.
And he had more than that, and apparently he felt that he should
quit the program.
Mr. Mack. As I understand it, he had won, at that time, approxi-
mately $28,000.
Mr.' Enright. As I recall, it was about $26,000.
Mr. Mack. But also, if I understand the game correctly, he could
lose it all in one night.
Mr. Enright. Yes, and also lose the $5,000. If he lost, he would
have wound up with a consolation of $1,500.
Mr. Mack. Did ]Mr. Freedman indicate that Mr. Van Doren had
requested the money at that time ?
Mr. Enright. No. What ]Mr. Freedman indicated to me, as I re-
call, was that oVIr. Van Doren wanted to quit the show in order to re-
tain that amount of money. And it was ]VIr. Freedman's recommen-
dation that we give him $5,000. I definitely agreed with Mr. Freed-
man.
Mr. Mack. Yes. Then the $5,000 was an inducement to him to con-
tinue at that particular time ?
256 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Enright. Yes, the premise being that he would have the mini-
mum of $5,000, regardless of what ha^^pened to him on the program.
Mr. IVIack. Could you tell the committee why Mrs. Nearing was
paid $10,000, when she had won only $4,500 ?
Mr. Enmght. As I recall, with Mrs. Nearing, after she won from
Van Doren, she wanted to quit the program for the same reason. She
had reached, I think, about $14,000, and she wanted to quit the pro-
gram with the $14,000. And Mr. Freedman asked me whether I
would approve it if he were to arrange a $10,000 minimum guarantee
to her, and I did.
Mr. Murphy. May we go off the record on that, Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Do you want to go off the record and make a state-
ment ?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Mack. I want to ask if you gave assistance to Miss Leibbrand.
Mr. Enright. No, sir, not to my recollection.
Mr. Mack. Did you have anything to do with Miss Leibbrand when
she was on the program ?
Mr. Enright. As I recall — it is a very vague recollection — it was
more based on custom.
Mr. Mack. On what?
Mr. Enright. On custom. On procedural operation. I met her
before she Avas scheduled on the program, as I was wont to do with
every contestant who appeared on the program. I do not recall meet-
ing her, specifically. Vaguely I recall, but not too specifically. How-
ever, I would say that with perhaps one or two instances I met every
contestant who appeared on the program.
Mr. Mack. You met every contestant ?
Mr. Enright. Every contestant who appeared on the program, I
met previously to the contestant appearing on the program.
Mr. Mack. Mr. Freedman testified that before he assumed his re-
sponsibility as producer he was at that time being briefed on pro-
cedure.
Mr. Enright. That is my recollection, too.
Mr. Mack. Now, who would have been the appropriate person to
render assistance or give instructions to Miss Leibbrand at the time ?
Mr. Enright. I don't recall her being given any assistance.
Mr. Mack. This was during this transition period. And I assume
that someone coached her in some fashion or another as to whether
she should count to five before she answered the question or whether
she should bite her lower lip, or whatever the appropriate instructions
would be. My question is : Which representative would have been the
one who would have given her those instructions ?
Mr. Enright. In lieu of Mr. Freedman, it would have been Mr.
Merrill. But I must qualify it by saying that I do not recall that Miss
Leibbrand was given any assistance.
Mr. Mack. Would you recall it if anyone had instructed her not to
request that category over No. 7 or 8 ?
Mr. Enright. In her specific case I do not recall. It is possible,
but I honestly do not recall.
Mr. MiSlCk. You do not recall whether you gave her such instruc-
tions ?
Mr. Enright. I did not.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 257
Mr. Mack. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Springer, I understood you to say, in response to Mr. Lish-
man's question, that you did not have any firsthand information that
contestants on the CBS programs were being supplied mforaiation.
Is that the statement you made ?
Mr. Enright. That's right.
Mr. Springer. May I ask if you had any indirect or secondhand
information that questions and answers were being supplied to con-
testants on the CBS program?
Mr. Enright. I will be glad to answer the question, Mr. Springer.
But the only problem is that I would like to preface it by saying
that it is unfair of me to indict people based on rumor or hearsay.
Any information I gathered was hearsay information.
Mr. Springer. May I ask, first of all, without naming it: Who
supplied you the iiif ormation ?
]\Ir. Enright. It is just that there has been talk. I forget the in-
dividual.
Mr. Springer. In other words, no direct information from anybody
you knew?
Mr. Enright. That's right.
Mr. Springer. This was in the nature of rumor, then?
Mr. Enright. That's right.
Mr. Springer. To come to NBC for just a moment, it is my under-
standing, in response to a question by Mr. Lishman, that you said
that Mr. Ervin had reason to believe, from your conduct and what
was said by you, that the j^rogram was fixed, and that Mr. Stempel
was probably telling the truth.
Mr. Enright. He had reason to infer that? No, sir. He did not
have reason to infer that.
Mr. Springer. I just wonder if you have contradicted the answer
you previously gave.
Mr. Enright. What I stated or intended to state was that from
my conduct Mr. Ervin had reason to infer that I had not given
questions and answers to Mr. Stempel.
Mr. Springer. I am glad that is corrected. '
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Rogers?
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Enright, could you explain to me briefly how you
could arrange to dispose of one contestant without the other know-
ing about it?
Mr. Enright. Yes, you could do it. You were taking chances when
you were doing it, simply because you would not know whether the
opponent would not wind up with a higher score.
For instance, if you arranged to feed questions to one contestant,
and decided that he would play three rounds of the game, you would
not know whether his opponent would attain 21 in two rounds and
thus beat the first contestant. And therefore you would be taking
chances. But those were the normal risks that you were taking.
Mr. Rogers. I did not get your answer about 20 and 21.
Mr. Enright. The purpose of the game was to achieve 21. The
first contestant to achieve 21 would be the winner. At times, a con-
testant who was fed questions and answers would be asked to attain
258 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
21 in three rounds. Say, go for an eight point question, another eight
point question, and then a five point question.
Mr. Rogers. Tliat was the person you wanted to keep on the show ?
Mr. Enrigiit. Tliat is right.
Mr. Rogers. What would you tell the person you wanted to dis-
pose of ?
Mr. Enright. There were many instances where you would tell
him nothing. You would just run the risk of having him reach 21
in two rounds, namely going for 10 and 11. That is the risk you
would run.
Mr. Rogers. As a matter of fact, you would tell him to go for seven
or eight, like this Miss Leibbrand testified, and there was no way in
the world she could win. That is something like swinging a ball on
the chain at the ten pin, was it not?
Mr. Enright. I can't testify as 'to Miss Leibbrand, because I have
no knowledge of it. But there were other instances of people who
played against people who were fed questions and answers, and these
people were not given any questions or answers, nor were they in-
structed what points to go for.
Mr. Rogers. About what percentage of the time that you decided
to dispose of one would you say that both contestants knew of it?
Mr. Enright. May I clarify your question? In those instances
when we had the two contestants playing against each other and both
were being fed questions and answers? Are you referring to those
instances ?
Mr. Rogers. Yes.
Mr. Enright. And you would like to know what, Mr. Rogers ?
Mr. Rogers. The percentage of time that you intended to dispose
of one of the contestants at a certain time, and both contestants knew
what was going on.
Mr, Enright. Well, it is hard for me to state it. If there were 20
contestants on "Twenty-one"' who had been fed questions and an-
swers, and some of tliem might have played against each other
Mr. Rogers. Well, but I do not think the testimony was that there
were 20. I think there were 20 that Mr. Freedman advised. How
many did you advise ?
Mr. Enright. To the best of my recollection, three.
Mr. Rogers. Three?
Mr. Enright. Three.
Mr. Rogers. Do you mean three shows ?
Mr. Enright. No, three contestants, three individuals.
Mr. Rogers. And that is all that you ever advised ?
Mr. Enright. To my best of my recollection, one was Jackman,
one was Stempel, and one was one of the men who lost to Stempel,
while Stempel was on the program.
Mr. Rogers. Now, in i-egard to the contestants, you say you talked
to three individuals, it is your recollection. Now, how many perform-
ances would you say would have been covered by the ones you
talked to? " '
Mr. Enright. By these three ? Well, Stempel was on for six shows.
Mr. Rogers. I thouglit — Avell, you are getting into the names of
the ones who have testified. Would you say more than 50 percent
of the performances would come within the category ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 259
Mr. Enright. You mean overall ?
Mr. Rogers. Where both parties knew.
Mr. Enright. And including the entire period of the show from
its inception until when it went otf the air. I have no idea, but in
order not to prolong this issue, I would go along with Mr. Freedman
and agree with him.
Mr. Murphy. That is a different question.
Mr. Rogers, is your question whether both parties knew ?
Mr. Rogers. Yes.
Mr. Enright. May I withdraw my answer?
Mr. Rogers. I want it correct.
Mr. Enright. This is a very wild guess, because I don't have the
opportunity to sit down and figure it out. I would say in those in-
stances it probably would be maybe 10 to 15 percent.
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Enright, did the contestants on these shows that
received money always receive the exact amount as shown to the
people, and advertised to have been received by them ?
Mr. Enright. No. There were two exceptions to that. One was
Mr. Jackman, who at the time only received $15,000 of the $24,500
which he was suj^posed to have been awarded. He later got the other
$9,500.
Mr. Rogers. Go ahead.
Mr. Enright. And Mrs, Nearing, who received $10,000 instead of,
as I recall, the $5,500 she was supposed to have been awarded.
Mr. Rogers. Now, who paid Mr. Jackman? Did you pay him, or
did the Pharmaceuticals, Inc., pay him ?
Mr. Enright. We paid Mr. Jackman, but the amount of his pay-
ment was reported to the advertising agency, and in their records he
was listed as having been paid $15,000.
Mr. Rogers. I am talking about the $9,500 that was paid later on.
Mr. Enright. No, we paid it. Mr. Barry and I paid it.
Mr. Roger. You and Mr. Barry ?
Mr. Enright. That's right. " ^ *
Mr. Rogers. Not NBC? . ; r
Mr. Enright. No, sir. *••'
Mr. Rogers. Who paid the loss on the entire program ?
Mr. Enright. NBC.
Mr. Rogers. What was that ? $75,000 ?
Mr. Enright. This is a figure I heard of this afternoon. I am not
certain. I think it was in the 70's.
Mr. Rogers. That was after NBC bought the program from you,
was it not?
Mr. Enrtght. That's right. It was in the 70's.
Mr. Rogers. Now, did the high winner, the big winner on this
thing, receive the fabulous amount of money that it was advertised
that she was receiving?
Mr. Enright. Every cent of it.
Mr. Rogers. Every cent of it. She received it b}^ check?
Mr. Enright. By check.
Mr. Rogers. From Barry & Enright?
Mr. Enright. I do not recall whether it was a Bariy & Enright or
whether it was a check made out by Pharmaceuticals, Inc., in order
for them to be able to use it in their promotional advertising.
260 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Rogers. Now, one more question. About this fellow Franklin,
did you tell him at any time, or were you present at the meetin<y where
he was told, that if everybody told a lib, and he told the ti-uth, you
would prosecute him for perjury ?
Mr. Enright. No, sir.
Mr. Rogers. How many meetings did you have with Mr. Franklin?
Mr. Enright. Well, when the scandal first broke, our meetings
were very frequent, daily and hourly, practically. So it would be
hard for me to put any number to it.
Mr. Rogers. How many did you have after this broke, where any
NBC representatives were there?
Mr. Enright. Well, there was one meeting with the NBC's repre-
sentative on the evening that the scandal broke. There was one meet-
ing.
Mr. Rogers. And that is the only meeting where they had NBC
representatives present ?
Mr. Enright. Commencing with August 28, to the best of my recol-
lection. August 28, 1958.
Mr. Rogers. Only one meeting ?
Mr. Enright. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. Rogers. And where was that ?
Mr. Enright. That took place in the executive offices of NBC.
Mr. Rogers. In whose office? Do you remember the name?
Mr. Enright. I think it was Mr. Bilby's office.
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Bilby?
Mr. Enright. Bilby, B-i-1-b-y. >
Mr. Rogers. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Derounian. Do you recall a meeting with Mr. Ervin of NBC
after this newspaper story was about to leak out on Stempel ?
Mr. Enright. Yes, I recall, but not too clearly. I am reenforcing
my recollection by Mr. Ervin's testimony.
Mr. Derounian. Well, are you acquainted with his testimony to-
day?
Mr. Enright. Very vaguely, just that we had a meeting in his
office.
Mr. Derounian. Did he ask you at that time whether or not the
charges by Stempel were true ?
Mr. Enright. Not to my recollection. But I reiterate, Mr. Deroun-
ian, that he could infer from my conduct that the charges were un-
true.
Mr. Derounian. Did you tell him that you had a confession from
Stempel ?
Mr. Enright. I told him I did. A repudiation.
Mr. Derounian. Did you tell him you had recordings of a con-
fession by Stempel ?
Mr. Enright. No, I told him, as I recall, that I had recordings of
admission to blackmail by Stempel.
Mr. Derounian. Did you have those recordings, actually?
Mr. Enright. Yes, sir.
Mr. Derounian. You never offered to show them to him or play
them to him ?
Mr. Enright. Well, I think it is implicit in the statement that he
was welcome to use them.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 261
Mr. Derounian. And you thought at that time that Stempel was
really off his rocker, figuratively speaking?
Mr. Enright. I think Mr. Stempel was disturbed, yes.
Mr. Derounian. Now, for how much did you sell your show to
NBC?
Mr. Enright. Well, it is not just one show. We sold a large pack-
age of shows for $2,200,000, approximately.
Mr. Derounian. Were the principals of the corporation you and
Mr. Barry ? Do you own all the stock ?
Mr. Enright. We did not sell the corporation. We sold the assets.
Mr. Derounian. But you got $2,250,000 ?
Mr. Enright. After taxes, commissions, and so forth.
Mr. Derounian. No further questions.
Mr. Flynt. Mr. Enright, you said some contestants were brought
in to participate in one or more ties. Is that correct ?
Mr. Enright. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flynt. If you brought them in to participate in ties, how could
they tie, if both contestants did not know about it ?
Mr. Enright. Occasionally they did, and occasionally they didn't.
Mr. Flynt. Well, did both of them know about it ?
Mr. Enright. Not always, no.
Mr. Flynt. Well, in most instances did most of them know about it ?
Mr. Enright. In a number of instances, yes.
Mr. Flynt. Because if you brought a man in for the purpose of
participating in a tie, that was to build up audience appeal, interest ?
Mr. Enright. To build up entertainment and excitement.
Mr. Flynt. That would be particularly true if they took low
value questions that had three or four points, like they did on that
fashion category ; wouldn't it ?
Mr. Enright. I am sorry. I didn't hear your question.
Mr. Flynt. It would be almost necessary for both contestants to be
in on it if they took low-point questions.
Mr. Enright. Well, the fact, Mr. Flynt, is that that happened with-
out both contestants being in on it.
Mr. Flynt. It did happen. And they took low-point questions?
Mr. Enright. No. One time one contestant who was being fed ques-
tions and answers took a 10 and an 11 and hit 21. And his opponent,
who was not fed questions, did the same.
Mr. Flynt. But there was one case where you asked questions on
the category of ladies' fashions, and both of them made a statement
almost identical, to the effect that they didn't know much about
clothes, so they w^ould take a low-point question. One of them took
three, and one of them four. Is that right, Mr. Lishman? Or is
that substantially right ?
Mr. Lishman. Yes.
Mr. Flynt. One took two and one four, and one four and one five.
And it took two or three rounds to get up to anywhere near a high
total. Would not both of them have to be in on something like that?
Mr. Enright. Mr. Flynt, did this actually happen?
Mr. Lishman. Yes, it did actually happen. Or not precisely, but
the first question was three points, and the answer was nylon stockings.
And I think if you follow that one through, there were I think three
more small numbers before you reached 21. , ,
262 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Flynt. Or 17. They might have tied at 17.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Flynt. Well, let me ask you this question, then. Have you
told the contestant or suggested to a contestant tliat he leave the
counti-3^ rather than come down and appear before this committee ?
Mr, Enright, Never.
Mr. Flynt. At any time?
Mr. Enright. Never.
Mr. Flynt. Would it be a substantially correct statement to say
that one or both contestants were fixed or assisted or coached or more
than 50 percent of the programs during the entire run of "Twenty-
one?"
Mr. Enright. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flynt. That is correct ?
Mr. Enright. I would go along with Mr. Freedman. Yes.
Mr. Flynt. I think that is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Devine?
Mr. Devine. When one contestant has been advised that he is to pick
a certain number and at the end of the meeting he will have tied on
more than one occasion, do you know what the mathematical percent-
age averages are as to the other contestant also tying, without having
previously been advised of the same thing ?
Mr. Enright. No. I do not, sir. I imagine they are pretty low,
but I don't know what they are.
Mr. Devine. Would it be coiTect to say that they are over 100,000
tol?
Mr. Enright. I have no way of stating, merely because I am not
conversant with odds.
Mr. Devine. Do you know of any situation — I am not intimating
or suggesting any contestants — where one contestant received advance
information as to questions and answers and also was advised what
points to pick and that he would tie ? Do you know of any such situ-
ation in which the other contestant was not also so advised ?
Mr. Enright. Just to clarify your question, an instance where one
contestant was given questions and answers and his opponent was not?
Is that your question? I am having difficulty, sir, understanding
your question.
(Discussion off the record.)
The Chairman. I had no idea that we would be here this late, and
I regret that we have found it necessary to go on this late.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Enright. For the record, there are many, many discrepancies
in Mr. Stempel's testimony regarding me.
Mr. LiSHMAN. But substantially true, however ?
Mr. Enright. Well, the truth rests in the charge that gave him
questions and answers.
Mr. LisHMAN. It is true in that respect ?
Mr. Enright. That's right.
The Chairman. Thank you very much for your testimony here to-
night. And, of course, you will remain available, too, for any pos-
sible further testimony during the next 2 days.
The committee will adjourn until 10 o'clock this morning.
(Whereupon, at 12:55 a.m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 10 a.m., Thurday, October 8, 1959.)
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 8, 1959
House of Representatives,
Special Committee on Legislative Oversight,
Committee on Interstate and Forfjgn Commerce,
Washington^ D.C.
The special subcommittee met at 10 a.m., in the caucus room, Old
House Office Buildino;, Hon. Oren Harris (chairman) presiding.
Present : Representatives Harris, Mack of Illinois, Rogers of Texas,
Flynt, Moss, Springer, Derounian, and Devine.
Also present: Robert W. Lishman, counsel to the subcommittee;
Beverly M. Coleman, subcommittee principal attorney; Charles P.
Howze, subcommittee attorney; Richard N. (xoodwin, subconunittee
special consultant; Herman Clay Beasley, subconunittee clerk; and
Jack Marshall Stark, minority counsel.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Last evening the committee held an executive session, I might say a
rather extensive one, the way some people look around here anyway
and the way I feel, at which time Mr. Enright and Mr. Freedman
were witnesses.
The connnittee decided, on the information that had been pre-
sented to it, that the rules of the House would be applicable to their
appearance, and particularly so since they had themselves requested
it in an effort to avoid some of the things which the rules of the House
were adopted to prevent. Due to the lateness of the hour, the com-
mittee did not consider last night the question of whether or not to
make all or any part of their testimony available to the public. That
question will be decided at a later time as soon as the committee has
an opportunity to consider what it will do in connection with their
presentation.
I might say also that both of them are producers of more than one
show, and several shows, and the committee will very likely hear them
again before these hearings are concluded.
Today we take up the .show referred to as "Dotto," a show pro-
duced by Frank Coo])er Associates for the Columbia Broadcasting
System.
The first witness we will call this morning is jNIr. David Huschle.
Mr. Huschle, will you come aroimd? Will you be sworn, please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this committee to be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
TESTIMONY OF DAVID HUSCHLE
Mr. Huschle. I do so swear.
The Chairman. Will you have a seat ?
263
264 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Will you give your full name for the record ?
Mr. HuscHLE. David Husclile.
The Chairman". And your address ?
Mr. HusciiLE. 38 Willits Road, Glen Cove, N.Y.
The Chairman. What is your business or profession ?
Mr. HuscHLE. I am a restaurant manager.
The Chairman. You are a restaurant manager?
Mr. HuscHLE. Yes,
The Chairman. Are you familiar with a so-called quiz show com-
monly referred to as "Dotto" ?
Mr. HuscHLE. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Were you a contestant on the show ?
Mr. HuscHLE. I was.
The Chairman. When ?
Mr. Huschle. I was first a contestant on "Dotto" during the day-
time in the month of February 1958. Then again in the month of
July of 1958. The exact dates I am not sure of. I was on for about 5
days during the daytime show and for 3 consecutive weeks on the
nighttime show.
The Chairman. Mr. Lishman, you may proceed with the witness.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Chairman, in order that we may understand the
testimony of this witness, who has been identified as a contestant on
the nighttime show "Dotto," I would like to ask him to state whether
or not he was a contestant on "Dotto" on July 15, 1958.
Mr. HusciiLE. I believe that is the correct date. It was the 1st,
the 8th, and the 15th.
Mr. Lishman. In order that we may understand the mechanics of
the game and the testimony to follow, I Avould like at this time to ask
the presentation of a kinescopic reproduction of the July 15, 1957,
evening performance of "Dotto."
Mr. Springer. You said 1957.
Mr. Lishman. 1958.
( Showing of kinescopic production.)
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Huschle, you have just seen a kinescopic show-
ing of part of the "Dotto" show staged on the evening of July 15,
1958. You were the contestant, or you were a participant in that pro-
gram, and does that reproduction correctly depict what actually hap-
pened that evening ?
Mr. Huschle. Yes, sir ; that is an exact reproduction of the show.
Mr. Lishman. I should like at the appropriate time when the
transcript is completed to have the sound on that portion of the
program included in the record.
The Chairman. Without objection, it will be included.
(Transcript of the sound track follows :)
March. Good evening. I'm Hal March. I iised to be an EJmcee but now I'm
a contestant. [Fanfare.]
Carson. My name is Johnny Carson. I used to be an Emcee but tonight I am
a contestant. [Fanfare.]
Narz. My name's Jack Narz. I used to be a contestant, and now I'm an Emcee.
Ralph Paul. Hal March and Johnny Carson, two of television's top Emcees,
become contestants in a special exhibition on the game that turns dots into pic-
tures, and pictures into dollars. [Fanfare.] "Dotto." And here's the star of
"Dotto," the Emcee, Jack Narz. [Fanfare.]
Narz. Thank you. Hi, everybody. Thank you very much, ladies and gentle-
men, and welcome to "Dotto," brought to you tonight by New Fab with Duratex,
recommended by leading makers of fabrics and clothing. Well, sir, Hal March
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 265
versus Johnny Carson. That should be a real swinging exhibition a little bit
later when they play each other in a game of "Dotto." Right now, though, may I
direct your attention to our home Dotto picture in which we will now connect
10 more dots. [Fanfare.]
Paul. In the next half hour, 10 more dots will be connected and a phone call
will be made to one of you at home. If you can identify this famous face you
will win one of the most spectacular prizes ever offered — a prize that will include
a Continental :Mark III convertible. So, stand by. That phone call may go to
you. [Fanfare.]
Narz. Thank you, Ralph. Well, we really have a busy evening in store. The
battle of the Emcees later on, and our phone call. Bnt right now, let's meet
our champion from last week, Mr. David Huschle. Dave, want to come out
here? [Applause.] Dave has already accumulated $11,600 and he's about to
meet his next challenger. Ralph, would you introduce our next player, please.
Paul. The challenger— a modeling student from Jacksonville, Fla., Connie
Hines. [Applause.] Hi, Connie.
Narz. [Garbled.] Dave, what do you think of your opponent here?
Huschle. Why
NARZ. Yes — you took the words right out of my mouth. Welcome to "Dotto"
time. Nice to have you here.
Miss Hines. Thank you.
Narz. How long have you been here from Jacksonville?
Miss Hines. About 3 weeks, now. Jack.
Narz. And I understand your ambition is to be a model. Are you working
here in New York?
Hines. No. not yet. I only model down in Jacksonville, for stores down there,
and came up to New York with big hopes — but that's all I've got — a hope.
Narz. Well, may I say that you look very well in your hopes, Connie, indeed.
You're not married then, I take it?
Hines. No. I always thought I would be by now. When I was 16 I thought
I would be married by the time I was 18. When I was 18 I thought I would
be married when I was 20. Now I'm 23 and still not married. I guess I'm just
an old maid.
Narz. I've got a bulletin for you, Connie. In America if there were more old
maids like you there'd be a lot more old butlers, too. You can bet on that. It's
time now to get our first contest underway. Dave, you're going to be out to
defend your championship, try to win some more. Connie, you're out to try to
take that championshii) away from him and also win some money for your-
self. Before we start the game I'd like to present each of you a nice big box
of New Fab with Duratex. There you are, Connie, and there you are, Dave.
Now I'd like to wish both of you good luck, and take your positions in front of
the Dotto boards, please. May I have the cards for the first game, please. [Fan-
fare.] Thank you, Carol. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Miss Carol Christian-
son, our "Dotto" girl. She's real cute, too, isn't she? Thank you, Carol. [Ap-
plause.]
All righty, now let's reveal the $5,000 "Dotto" picture. AVell, as you know,
you have the same picture ; however, you cannot see each other's. Now for
each question you answer correctly a portion of your picture will be filled in.
As soon as you recognize the picture, press the signal for "Dotto" because the
sooner you identify it, the more you are going to make. We'll pay you $100 for
each dot that remains not connected. We'd like for you to try those signals
now. Please, Connie, would you? [Buzzer.] Thank you — and Dave, over
there [buzzer]. All righty, they both work. Our first game is underway. Our
first category is American poetry. Connie, the more dots you ask for the harder
the question will be, and if you miss the question the dots you ask for will be
connected in Dave's picture. The first category is American poetry. Would you
like to connect 5, 8, or 10 dots?
Hines. 8.
Narz. Name the 20th century American poet who wrote "The Devil and
Daniel Webster."
Hines. Benet.
Narz. Benet is absolutely right. Here are eight dots for you, Connie. [Fan-
fai'e and dots being connected.] Eight connected, 42 unconnected; your picture
is worth $4,200. And Champ, the category, American jwetry — 5, 8, or 10 for
you?
Huschle. I'll try and keep that championship. Jack. I'll try 10 dots.
266 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Nabz. Name the American poet who wrote, the first way, "The Murder of
Lidice."
HuscHLE. Millay. Edna St. Vincent Millay.
Narz. Edna St. Vincent Millay is right. Here are your 10 connected dots.
[Fanfare.] Ten connected for you, Dave, 40 unconnected. The picture's worth
$4,000. And all our questions are verified by the editorial board of the Encyclo-
pedia Americana.
Sculpture is the category this time, Connie ; 5, 8 or 10?
HiNES. I took it in school ; I ought to know something about it. I'll take 10.
Narz. Ten. All the way. Name the sculptor who created the Statue of
Liberty.
HiNES. Bartholdi.
Nakz. Bartholdi is absolutely right. Yes, ma'am, 10 more dots for you, Connie,
r Applause — fanfare — dots being connected.] Eighteen dots connected, Connie,
32 unconnected. The picture is worth $3,200. And Champ, the category is
sculpture ; 5, 8 or 10?
HuscHLE. I'll try and keep ahead — I'll try another 10, Jack.
Narz. Many kissed the foot of this statue of Moses which was begun in Rome
in 1513. Name the artist who carved it.
HuscHLE. Gee, the only one I know around that time, Jack — would it be
Michelangelo?
Narz. It would be Michelangelo; yes, sir — 10 more dots for you, Dave. [Fan-
fare — dots being connected.] Twenty connected, Dave, 30 not connected. The
picture's worth $3,000. Connie, the solar system ; 5, 8 or 10? You have 18. We'll
give you a clue when you have reached 25 connected dots. In order to qiialify
for that clue you'll have to go for eight.
HiNES. I'd better go for eight.
Narz. Name the comet seen by earthlings every 76 years.
HiNES. Halley's?
Narz. Halley's is right. Yes, ma'am. Just under the wire. Here's more dots
and your first clue. [Fanfare.] Twenty-six connected dots. There's a clue —
your picture is worth $2,400, Connie, if you can identify it right now. Champ,
the category is the solar system ; 5. 8 or 10? You have 20.
HuscHLE. I'll try the first clue and take five. Jack.
Narz. What is the Latin term astronomers use for the northern lights? Aurora
borealis or Solus Parte?
HuscHLE. Aurora borealis.
Narz. You're right. Five dots and a clue. [Fanfare.] Twenty-five connected
dots and a clue for you, Dave. Your picture is worth $2,500.
Connie, the category, world fashions.
HiNES. I'll take 10 on that.
Narz. Ten on that. Being a model. If you answer this correctly you'll get a
second clue. You will have connected 36 dots. What do you call the principal
garment of a Hindu woman?
HiNES. A sari.
Narz. A sari is right. Ten dots — another clue. [Fanfare.] Thirty-six dots
are connected. There is your second clue. Your picture is worth $1,400.
[Buzzer.] OK, you think you know who it is — $1,000 — Connie, just a moment —
let me explain to you first, dear — your picture is worth $1,400. Now if you are
mistaken you will have to be eliminated from the game. You understand that,
don't you? Dave will not be able to see your answer — step over there and write
it out now, Connie. [Fanfare.] Yoii are right — yes, sir. You are right. Now
please stand by. Dave, here it is. Your championship is at stake right now.
You have 25 connected dots and a clue. We're now going to give you 10 sef'onds
to see if you can come up with an identification and tie up the game. Good luck
Dave. (Fanfare for 10 seconds.) Dave your time is up. Who it is?
HuscHT^E. I haven't got an idea, Jack.
Narz. Have no idea. Connie
HusoHLE. All I can guess is J. P. Morgan?
Narz. I beg your pardon?
H1TSCT11.E. John P. Morgan ?
Narz. No : I'm sorry, that is wrong. Connie, you are a winner and you win
$1,400. [Fanfare.] That's it. Dave, its too bad, you didn't recognize it. We're
going to go ahead and complete your picture for you. I think you will recognize
Prime Minister Nehru. That's what Connie identified correctly — she's our new
champion. You've been pretty great though, fellow, let's face it. You've been
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 267
real grand. You have a lot of money you've won off Dotto. We hope that you
enjoy it — I know you will.
HuscHLE. Right.
Narz. Dave, thanks for being with us. Good night. Good luck. [Fanfare.]
Incidentally. I think this is wrong. Don't look at this. This is not what Dave
has won. He has won $11,600. I don't know how that got up there. That was a
mistake.
HuscHLE. Regardless, Jack, I just wanted to say thank you very much. I
have never had anything more exciting or thrilling in my entire life.
Narz. Thank you, Dave. Good night. Dave.
Connie, as I told you, you've won $1,400, you're our new champion, and in
just a little while we'll have you meet your first challenger. OK?
Please stand by. We'll have Connie meet her first challenger and in just one
minute we're going to have our special exhibition game of "Dotto" between Hal
March and Johnny Carson.
Mr. LisHMAx. Mr. Hiischle, were you instructed before that show
to lose to Miss Hines?
Mr. Htjschle. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Who gave you that instruction?
Mr. HuscHLE. Mr. Gil Cates.
Mr. LisHMAN. Who is Mr. Cates?
Mr, HuscHLE. I believe his position was assistant producer.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You appeared on three nighttime shows of "Dotto"?
Mr. HuscHLE. That is correct.
Mr. LisHMAX. What were your total winnings?
Mr. HuscHLE. On the nighttime show, $11,600.
Mr. LisHMAN. On each of these appearances, were you furnished
information in advance by Mr. Gates as to what questions you should
ask and the answers ?
Mr. HuscHLE. Yes, sir.
jNIr. LiSHMAX. Were you also furnished, or were you also told, the
person who would be shown on the completed "Dotto" picture?
Mr. HuscHLE. Yes, sir ; with the exception of Nehra.
Mr. LisHMAisr. You were told to lose that evening?
Mr. HuscHLE. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Which you did ? .
Mr. HuscHLE. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAx. And all this information, Mr. Huschle, was given to
you prior to your appearance on the evening show ?
Mr. HuscHLE. That is correct.
Mr. LisHMAN. How much prior to the time you appeared was this
assistance given to you?
Mr. Huschle. We were required to be in the studio, I believe, an
hour before show time.
Mr. LiSHisrAN. Wliere is that studio located, do you remember?
Mr. Huschle. I believe it was — I don't know the name of the
theater — it was on the west side of New York, around 63d Street.
Golumbia or — I don't recall. It was an old motion picture theater
turned into a studio.
Mr. LisHMAN. Yes.
Mr. Huschle. As I said, we were required to be in the studio No.
1 to assure our presence would be tliere, that the sliow would go on,
and we were required to have a runthrough on the stage.
In other words, they would locate us and how to operate the "Dotto"
button on and do what they call camera rehearsals. '■,■. -:<y\ -i i
268 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Part of that time also was devoted to a closed-door session with Mr.
Gates where we review the question and answers.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did Mr. Gates tell you how many points to ask for ?
Mr. HuscHLE. Yes, he did.
Mr. LisHMAN. I would like to know in a little more detail the-
manner of the camera rehearsal. How was the camera rehearsal
conducted ?
Mr. HuscHLE. The contestants were taken on stage and they were
shown how to make the entrance as you saw on the kinescope. They
were shown where to stand with Mr. Norris, the master of ceremonies.
After the interview which was semirehearsed, in this particular kine-
scopic there was nothing to it : in any event we would then be told to
walk back to the "Dotto" board, what to do in the event one or both
was dottoed, how to use the button, et cetera, how to write the name
on the viewgraph when you once had the winning number or the
winning name.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were you taught how to act?
Mr. HuscHLE. In this case, sir, no. Apparently from my actions
on the daytime show, they were pleased with the way I acted. They
would naturally pass on the comments ; react to the question, if you
know it light up and bring it forth. If you don't know it, take time
to think it through or be hesitant about it. Pace yourself.
I felt I was able to do this with the feeling of the audience. If it
was an obvious answer, I knew that it was an easy question, I would
throw the answer out right away. In many cases it was elementary
to give this reflection. At least I thought so.
Mr. LiSHMAN. But you were given all the questions and answers
during the time that you appeared on these three nighttime perform-
ances of "Dotto" with the exception of the last question, when you
were told to lose?
Mr. HuscHLE. With the exception of the last picture, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. When Mr. Gates told you to lose to Miss Hines,
how did he tell you to do it? What words did Mr. Gates use?
Mr. HuscHLE. He used the expression, "Take the difference."
Mr. LiSHMAN. He used what ?
Mr. HuscHLE. The expression "Take the difference." We had
spoken beforehand and he said we want you to lose. This will
probably be brought up later because it is the old question of budget
again. We had arranged that this would be the third and final night;
and I was to lose. I was told I would lose the week before and tlie
manner in which I would lose was not told to me.
On the last date of the show, the one you saw, it was explained to
me that rather than throw me a curve and give you a question you
can't answer, we would prefer to give you a picture for you to identify.
Mr. Gates said :
I am not going to tell you the name of the picture. If you should hear it in
the audience or discover it by your own ways, I ask you not to identify the
picture.
As it tunied, I did not identify it.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Huschle, you spoke something about Mr. Gates
bringing up the need for your taking this difference because of budget
pressures. Would you elaborate on that a little, please?
IN\^ESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 269
Mr. HuscHLE, They told me that the budget allowed for each show
$10,000. It would appear to me it would have evened out over 3
weeks. I made an agreement with Mr. Gates to abide by it, I thought
I had been treated very fairly on the show by Mr. Gates.
Mr. LisHMAN. Mr. Huschle, how did you happen to appear as a
contestant on "Dotto" ?
Mr. Huschle. "Well, if it please, it would take a few minutes to tell.
I was working at the time at nights. I got on the night show as a
result of being on the daytime show.
;Mr. LiSHMAN. When did you first appear on the daytime show ?
Mr. Huschle. In February of the same year. The exact date I
don't know. I think it was ascertained in the district attorney and
the grand jury in New York Gity.
Mr. LisiiMAN. How many times did you appear on the daytime
"Dotto" show ?
Mr. Huschle. I believe it was 5 days. The actual dates are a part
of the testimony of the grand jury.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were you also given the answers in advance on that
show in the daytime show ?
Mr. Huschle. I was given what you could call preparation. I was
not promised the questions and answers we reviewed would be on the
show. Some were and some were not. Some questions were asked
of me that were not gone over before. Some questions were asked
that were.
Mr. LiSHMAN. But a good many of the questions that were reviewed
with you did appear on that show ?
Mr. Huschle. Yes, sir ; the exact proportion I don't recall.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were you told in that show in some instances that
the finished picture would be ?
Mr. Huschle. Again never the specific picture. For instance, it
would say would you recognize Mickey Mouse or Lou Gostello or
whoever it might be. Again those pictures did not always appear.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I am very interested in the last way of coaching a
contestant.
Mr. Huschle. Perhaps, sir, if I could
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you mean that Mr. Gates would say to you or
someone representing the producer, do you know Mickey Mouse, do
you know Tarzan, do you know Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, do
you know General Grant. Was it along that line (
Mr. Huschle. Or would you recognize them.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Would any pictures of these persons or personalities
be there while they were asking these questions ?
Mr. Huschle. Only once. That was part of the test to appear on
the program. As I said, I was working at nights at the time. My
wife and I would watch the "Dotto" show in the morning. I believe
it went on at 11 :30. Naturally enough I said to my wife, "Gee, I can
answer a lot of those questions. I think I am going to try to get on it."
It was a joke at home at first. Eventually I went with my brother to
the show. He had gone previously with a ticket I could not use. He
filled out a card in the audience. The card asked your occupation and
your family status. I knew that they were looking for color interest,
family things, or things that they could talk about on the air that
52294— 60— pt. 1 18
270 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
would be of interest to the audience. The hist night I put in the card
I said I wouki like to challenge my brother on "Dotto." His name had
been picked up but he had not been called at the conclusion of the pre-
vious show. At the conclusion of this show, my name was called, and
I was asked if I could come down front for a brief interview.
At the interview they asked me if I would be available that afternoon
for a series of tests and was I living in town, so I could come on the
show at any time. I received word from the employer to come in late
that day. That very day I took two short answer tests of 150 ques-
tions each, I believe.
Mr. LiSHMAN. AVlio gave you those questions ?
Mr. HuscHLE. Those were given to me by part of the staff of
"Dotto." Their names I don't recall. They were given to me in a
building they have, studios in New York. The examination was given
written, and apparently the results of those were obtained very quickly.
You were also photographed to see if you were photogenically inclined.
Then you were given a personal interview with the people, I suppose
how you speak and talk. I thought I was failing this very miserably.
They asked what do you mean about your brother. I explained about
my brother. They said why do you want to challenge your brother ?
I said because he is older than I and we have always had certain fam-
ily competition. They asked about my wife and I told them that she
was a model and that she had dated my brother for 2 years before
I married her. Apparently this swung them in favor of something
interesting and colorful to put on the show. I was called the next day,
or the day after, could I please come to New York for an additional
interview.
At this interview they showed us pictures that had previously been
used on "Dotto" to see if we have perception of identifying a picture
through connected dots. Those pictures could have been FDR, Tom
Dewey, Dick Tracy. Then I was told to go home and I would be
called probably for tomorrow's show.
I got a call later that evening. Would I please appear on the show,
and I went in. That was the first instance of "Dotto." Gil Gates
was not in charge of the contestants on the daytime show.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Wliowas?
Mr. HuscHLE. Stan Green. Green or Greer, I am not sure. I be-
lieve it is Green. Then they would take us through the actions again
on the stage, especially the newer contestants who had not been there
before. We signed releases giving them rights to kinescopes and re-
productions and such things, then introduced to the master of cere-
monies and to the announcer.
The first show I don't recall. It could possibly be that we went
through this very, very vague going over of questions, you see. The
second show took a longer time. It was in the same format, though.
AVould you know these people, or are you good in baseball? At no
time was I told
Mr. LisHMAN. Did those people that they asked you about later ap-
pear as pictures on the show" ?
Mr. Httsciile. In some cases they did, sir. In some cases they did
not.
Mr. Ltshman. But the pictures that appeared, were they among the
ones that you were asked about in advance ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 271
Mr. HusciiLE. As I say in some eases, yes. In some cases no. They
were pictures, the name of which had not been mentioned to me tliat
day. In other words, I had to identify under my own. At no time
during this closed door session was I told at what point to "Dotto"
or what point to ring a bell.
As a result of the performance on the daytime show, I received a
call in June asking if I would like to appear on the nighttime version
of "Dotto" where the prizes would be greater and they were well
pleased on the show and would like to have me as the opening night
contestant.
Mr. LisHMAN. Before you were to appear on tlie nighttime "Dotto"
show, did you meet with Mr. Gates at the Hotel Woodstock ?
Mr. Hu'scHLE. Yes. He outlined the format of the show, showing
how much upgraded it would be, full orchestra, a bigger network cov-
erage, more stations participating. In other w^ords, a more costly
production, with higher prizes.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did he tell you that you would win a lot of money
on the nighttime show ?
Mr. HiscHLE. He said it is possible for me to win a lot of money.
I remember him distinctly telling me in the Woodstock interview for
that show, I believe there were two of them, both about the same in-
terest or subject, he said now, "I Imow on the daytime show you re-
ceived some assistance from Stan Green. On the nighttime show you
are going to be completely on your own. We will be unable to give
you any assistance on it."
I told them that was fine with me, wdiatever he thought. I was
happy to do it again because I got an awful big kick out of it. There
was a consolation price of a hundred dollars or so.
Mr. Ltshmax. Was the statement that Mr. Gates then made to you
in the Hotel Woodstock true ?
Mr. HuscHLE. It turned out not to be.
Mr. LisHMAN. Is it a fact that on each of the three times you ap-
peared on the nighttime "Dotto" show that you were furnished the
answers to the questions and told what the picture would be in ad-
vance of your appearance in the evening? , ,
Mr. HuscHLE. That is true.
I was told the question, the answer, what value question to select,
either 5, 10, or 15. Was it 5, 8, or 10 dots. And at what point to
"Dotto."
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were you surprised when Mr. Gates, having told
you at the Hotel Woodstock that you would receive no assistance in
llie "Dotto" show, proceeded to see that you got more assistance on
the nighttime show than you had received on the daytime show ?
Mr. HuscHLE. Yes. sir; I was quite surprised.
Excuse me, if I may. In so telling me, Mr. Gates had said, of
course, whether these aVe his exact words, competition or the pressure
is so great to make this show a success, we have to insure that it will
go over. We have received almost 2,000 ])ieces of mail in favor of
you as a contestant. AVe want to have you here for the opening night.
Because so much is riding on the success of this program, we want you
to work with us on it.
I should also point this out at this time. Mr. Gates went very far
out of his way to tell me that I should never once mention to him the
possibility of rewarding him for my winnings. Don't you ever men-
272 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
tion the word "remuneration" or "kick-back" to me, because if you:
do I will have to report it and we will have you taken off the show.
I told him no thought ever entered my mind.
Mr. Ltsiiman. In other words, Mr. Gates told you that the result of
a popularity poll based on your daytime appearance that he had
chosen you, or the people had chosen you, as the one to be fixed?
Mr. HuscHLE. Well, I don't know that he said it exactly that way.
He said they had chosen you to be on the show because of your popu-
larity. It was not me that was going to be fixed apparently.
Mr. LisHMAN. It meant to Mr. Gates that you were the person that
he wanted to fix ?
Mr. HuscHLE. That is right.
Mr. LisHMAN. Before you testified before the grand jury, did Mr.
Gates or any representative of the "Dotto" production talk with you ?
Mr. HuscHLE. No, sir; they did not.
When they first announced the hearings in the grand jniy, and
then when I was subpenaed, I called first Gil Gates and asked him
what the story was, whether he was going down, whether he had been
called. I don't recall ; I think he said he had been called.
I said, well, Gil, I have no choice in this matter, but to tell the
truth. Pie said that is the only thing you can do and that is the only
thing I expect you to do.
I said that is fine, I wanted you to know that is what I was going
to do.
About the same time I called the Frank Gooper office and I spoke
with Mr. Si Fisher. In so speaking to Mr. Fisher I told essentially^
the same thing I told Mr. Gates. I w^as asking whether or not any
legal advice was going to be given to the contestants from the show.
I told him this was all new to me. I never appeared before a grand
jury before. In fact, I didn't know how to behave. If there was any
legal advice that will help you or me, is it going to be forthcoming?
He said why would I need it. I told him obviously because of the
assistance I got on the show. On the telephone, which is the only
time I had spoken to him after the show, he sounded veiy interested
or that it was the first time he had heard that I had been tampered
with or coached.
He said, "You mean you were ?"
I said, "That is right."
He said, "This is the first I ever hear about it."
I told him that is quite possible. Again I would just like to know
if the Frank Gooper Associates were going to give any counsel to
the contestants on the show. They said nothing was forthcoming.
Then I told him I was going on my right and tell the truth. He
said "That is exactly what we expect."
Mr. LisiiMAN. On the nighttime show, over what network did that
go?
Mr. HuscuLE. NBG, but I was not sure myself because the morning
show was GBS and I sometimes get them mixed up. But it was on
NBG.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did anybody from either network come to you at.
any time and inquire whether you had been given questions and
answers and coaching in advance of your appearance on the show
"Dotto" ?
Mr. HuscHLE. From the network, sir ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 273
Mr. LisiiMAN. Yes.
Mr. HuscuLE. No.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Or any representative of the network ?
Mr. HuscHLE. No, sir, never.
Mr. LisHMAX. Did anybody else know besides Mr. Gates, did Mr.
Green know that you had been given these questions and answers in
advance ?
Mr. HuscHLE. No.
Mr. LisHMAN. Were you told that your opponent Miss Hines had
received similar coaching assistance ?
Mr. HuscHLE. I don't know that I was told she received assistance.
However, all the contestants were taken into a meeting the same as
I had with Mr. Gates, or in the daytime show with Mr. Green.
However, I was told that Miss Hines would win this and she would
go on such and such a question, I asked Mr. Gates, what happens
if she goofs, if she doesn't come up with the answer ? By all means,
then you will go ahead and Dotto because it becomes so obvious that
you have to get it. It is a very difficult picture and from the clues
I don't think you will get it in with one clue.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Are you familiar with the fact that the master of
ceremonies had four questions that he could ask ?
Mr. HuscHLE. I believe it was three, sir. There was a five, eight
or ten Dotto selection.
Mr. LisiiMAN. You are not familiar with the fact that there was
a so-called extra question or what was known as a kicker which they
•could use in an emergency to dump someone from the program ?
Mr. HuscHLE. No, sir; I was not familiar with that.
Mr. LisHMAN. We will develop that by other witnesses. ;
I am through with this witness, Mr. Ghairman.
The Ghairman. Mr. Mack, do you have any questions?
Mr, Mack. How much money did you win on this program ?
Mr. HuscHLE. On the evening show, sir, I won $11,600. On the
daytime show, I won $3,700.
Mr. Mack. And they paid you the full amount that you won ?
Mr. HuscHLE. Yes, sir ; very promptly.
Mr. Mack. Thank you.
The Ghairman. Mr. Rogers.
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Huschle, how many times were you on the pro-
gram ?
Mr. HuscHLE. On which, sir ; the morning or the evening ?
Mr, Rogers. On both.
Let us take the morning first. • '.
Mr. Huschle. I believe it was 5 days. , , ;.
Mr, Rogers. Five days? ;,
Mr. Huschle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers, What station were you appearing on ?
Mr, Huschle. I am not sure. It is a CBS network,
Mr. Rogers. I mean the station. Do you remember the call let-
ters of the station ?
Mr. Huschle, No, sir. It is either two or four, I am not sure,
in New York Gity.
Mr. Rogers. In New York Gity ?
Mr. Huschle. That is right. It is a GBS network in New York
City.
274 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Rogers. How long were you on the night show ?
Mr. HuscHLE. Three successive weeks.
Mr. EoGERS. When did you first find out that these shows were not
a true representation of what tliey were supposed to portray?
Mr. HuscHLE. Sir, if you mean when did I first receive assistance,
it was about the second day on the show.
Mr. Rogers. The second day ?
Mr. HuscHLE. That is correct.
Mr. Rogers. Did you conchide at that time that there was some
fraud associated with this ?
Mr. HuscHLE. In my own mind I have never associated it as being
fraud.
Mr. Rogers. You have never associated it with fraud ?
Mr. HuscHLE. No, sir.
Mr. Rogers. You mean that you don't think it is fraudulent now
for the people to be led to believe that a contest of wits is going on
and the truth about the matter is that both contestants know what the
questions and answers are going to be ?
Mr. Huschle. That is right, sir.
Mr. Rogers. You don't think that is fraudulent ?
Mr. Huschle. In my own mind I am not convinced that it is.
Mr. Rogers. Do you think "taking a difference" is fraudulent?
Mr. Huschle. No, sir, not for the purpose intended.
Mr. Rogers. Are you familiar with all the scandals that have
arisen in boxing ?
Mr. Huschle. I am, sir.
Mr. Rogers. Do you think that is fraudulent ?
Mr. Huschle. I do.
Mr. Rogers. You do ?
Mr. Huschle. I do.
Mr. Rogers. Basketball ?
Mr. Huschle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers. Are you familiar with the old Black Sox scandal in
baseball ?
Mr. Huschle. Vaguely.
Mr. Rogers. Do you think those are fraudulent ?
Mr. Huschle. I do.
Mr. Rogers. But you don't think that this is fraudulent ?
Mr. Huschle. I am not convinced of it; no, sir.
Mr. Rogers. What do you mean, you are not convinced of it? I
want to get the difference in our moralization there.
Mr. Huschle. Well, sir, my moralization — I am not asking any-
one else to believe, it is something I feel myself — my moral convic-
tion on this, and believe me I have thought of it quite often, was
that. No. 1, we are dealing here with an entertainment medium. I
am not in the entertainment business and never have been. We are
dealing in an entertainment medium. And to entertain, a show must
be either interesting or not.
Mr. Rogers. That same thing is true of baseball, basketball, foot-
ball, and boxing.
Mr. Huschle. That is exactly true. But you have salaried people
who are living on these salaries.
Mr. Rogers. I can't hear you.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 275
Mr. HuscHLE. I said these are salaried, people who are making
their living out of sports and baseball. I am not a salaried person
making my living out of entertainment, but I was given that op-
portunity to do so.
Mr. Rogers. The boys who were plajdng basketball for colleges
were not salaried people, at least they were not supposed to be, and
my understanding was not.
Mr. HuscHLE. I agree with you, they were fraudulent.
I am trying to develop my own point.
Mr. Rogers. Did the $11,000 have anything to do with your morals
involved in this ?
Mr. HuscHLE. It led me to thinlv more and more about my morals
in it.
Mr. Rogers. You mean that if you had thought it was fraudulent
you would not have taken the $11,000 or the $3,000 ?
Mr. HuscHLE. That is exactly right, in my own mind.
Mr. Rogers, ^^lien you decided to tell about this, when you got the
matter told to people who are investigating it, did it make you feel
cleaner?
Mr. HuscHLE. No, sir.
Mr. Rogers. Why had you been worried about it ?
Mr. Huschle. Because, as I said before, I am not sure that a fraud
nor am I positive in my moral convictions. If I can continue, per-
haps I can throw some light on the way I feel this way.
Mr. Rogers. I didn't hear you.
Mr. Huschle. I said perhaps if I can continue, I can throw a little
light on why I feel this way.
Mr. Rogers. You mean continue to talk here ?
Mr. Huschle. If you are interested.
Mr. Rogers. You mean continue to win money on the progi'am. I
don't understand what you are going to continue to do.
Mr. Huschle. You asked me before if I thought that taking a dive
or being coached on answers on a quiz show was fraudulent.
Mr. Rogers. Yes.
Mr. Huschle. I said "No, sir, not in my own conviction." May I
continue?
Mr. Rogers. Go ahead.
Mr. Huschle. Then you asked if I thought baseball and sports, et
cetera. I agreed with you in every instance with this one exception.
If I may, I would like to continue to develop that point if you are
interested in hearing it. As I said, this is an entertainment medium.
This is a medium that I was thrown into as an entertainer suddenly.
It developed into that. I can tell from the audience reaction in the
theater that they enjoy this ^performance. I could tell from the people
who had seen me at home that they enjoyed the performance. They
thought it was excellent. When you go into a quiz show where there
is no limit on the amount of winnings a contestant can take home, you
are immediately faced with control. We saw that yesterday in the
testimony where there was a control of $10,000 per program. One
way or another, it is controlled. We saw it when a man from NBC
was fully cognizant of the fact of the contract the Pharmaceuticals,
Inc., had where he knew that there was a control on the program.
'276 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Rogers. Wait just 1 minute. You said an NBC man knew
that there was a control on the program.
Mr. HuscHLE. In the sense that the contestants budget allowance
was $10,000 a week in winnings on "Twenty-one."
Mr. Rogers. Is that the sole basis of your statement that an NBC
man knew that there was control ?
Mr. HuscHLE. His testimony, yes.
Mr. Rogers. His testimony about the amount of money ?
Mr. HuscHLE. That is right.
Mr. Rogers. Go ahead.
Mr. HuscHLE. Therefore, we know, and the viewers at home must
know, that there is a limit on the winnings that you can have. Cer-
tainly there was in $64,000. Before I went on the show I took three
tests. Two of them were intelligence tests, one was a photographic
test, and the other was a perception test. It became a point where
the producers knew not only what I knew, but they knew also what I
did not know to a major point. To a reasonable point. They never
threatened to dump me or to throw a curve ball one way or another.
Mr. Rogers. You said they never did ?
Mr. HuscHLE. ^o, sir. If they were going to do it, they would tell
me so. Eventually on the nighttime show they told me that this
budget had been reached.
Mr. Rogers. That is the time they told you they were going to throw
you a curve or dump you ?
Mr. HuscHLE. They never at any time said they would throw me a
curve or dump me. They would never embarrass me. At the end of
3 weeks, they said this is the way we would like you to go off the show.
In order for a show to be entertaining, it must have a sustaining inter-
est. You people on the bench and myself have got to associate our-
selves with Mr. Van Doren or Mr. Stempel or someone like that.
Therefore, the producers of the show must have a way of keeping
the contestants around or else there is no entertainment. The audience
loses interest. If I had been pitted against Einstein, the show would
be meaningless.
Mr. Rogers. I understand you to say that as long as the show is
entertaining that the questions of morals and honesty insofar as the
viewing public is concerned is secondary ?
Mr. Huschle. No, sir, they are not secondary. But in witnessing
the show and watching it, they are being entertained. Unless the pro-
ducer or whoever it is that is running the show can make it entertain-
ing, they flop and the audience does not look. Therefore, the audience
at home is not going to be entertained.
Mr. Rogers. You mean if he cannot make it entertaining without
resorting to dishonesty or immoral practice, then he is free to do that,
to be sure that it is entertaining ?
Mr. Huschle. If you wish to consider it immoral.
Mr. Rogers. Is that your feeling ? That is what I want to know.
Mr. Huschle. No, sir; it is not. In other words, I don't feel that
anyone has been deceived or duped, really, and if so, what is it that
they have been duped of ?
Mr. Rogers. You don't feel that anyone has been duped or deceived?
Mr. Huschle. That is right. The audience has.
Mr. Rogers. The audience has ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 277
Mr. HuscHLE. If they believe they are watchino- a 100 percent
honest show. But still they are being entertained as much as they
are being entertained in a wrestling match.
Mr. Rogers. The reason they are being entertained is because they
don't know the truth about the thing, isn't it?
Mr. HuscnLE, That is right. If the truth were known there would
be no entertainment.
Mr. Rogers. It would not be entertainment.
Mr. HuscHLE. There would not be any entertainment.
Mr. Rogers. So unless you have a taint of dishonesty on this thing,
no one will watch the show and you could not sell these products.
Mr. HuscHLE. That is right, and you could not put the show on
without a reasonable amount of control. That is the point I was
trying to make.
Mr. Rogers. The control was when they told you to take the dive —
did you know the answer to that question ?
Mr. HuscHLE. It was a question I missed on,
Mr. Rogers. I mean the picture. Did you know the man?
Mr. HuscHLE. I did not.
Mr. Rogers. If you had known him, would you have given his
right name ?
Mr, HuscHLE. Not at that point of the game. The only way I
would have given the name if I got the second clue and it got obvious
that the girl was not going to identify it. In other words, it would
have been a last resort.
Mr. Rogers. In other words, you joined with them in the dive you
were taking?
Mr. HusGHLE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Devine?
Mr. Devine. Mr. Huschle, how old are you ?
Mr. Huschle. I am 28.
Mr. Devine. Where do you live ?
Mr. Huschle. In Long Island, N.Y.
Mr. Devine, Where in Long Island ?
Mr. Huschle. Green Cove.
Mr. Devine. Mr, Huschle I didn't quite understand how you
originally appeared on the afternoon "Dotto" program? How did
you happen to get on that ?
Mr. Huschle. On the morning show I filled out a card in the
audience and was selected from the audience.
Mr. Devine. What is your formal education ?
Mr. Huschle. Four years of college with a bachelor of arts degree,
sir.
Mr. Devine. Where ?
Mr. Huschle. With a bachelor of arts degree.
Mr. Devine. When did you receive that ?
Mr. Huschle. 1952.
Mr, Devine. Would you care to mention the name of the university
or college ?
Mr, Huschle, Adelphia College in Garden City, N.Y.
Mr. Devine. Are you married ? Do you have a family ?
Mr. Huschle. I do.
278 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SH0V7S
Mr. Devine. When Mr. Rogers was questioning you as to your
morals in connection with this, whether you considered it a fraud, you
spoke of the entertainment field, and I am not making an indictment
of any type of athletic endeavor, do you compare your participation
on this ''Dotto" program similar to the television entertainment of
a sport known as wrestling ?
Mr. HuscHLE. No, sir. Perhaps I don't want to indict wrestling
either, but wrestling matches are put on. I don't mean collusion
wrestling. Those that are billed wrestling exhibition. I think it is
common knowledge that they are arranged. It is not true wrestling.
Mr, Devine. I am sure that there are some people in some fields
that may feel some of these television wrestling matches, that the
results, have probably been determined in advance, and it is an enter-
tainment feature.
Mr. Huschle. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Devine. Do you more or less justify your feeling on your
"Dotto" program similar to that type of entertainment?
Mr. Huschle. Yes, in that vein. I don't pretend to compare it at
all to sports or basketljall, as Mr. Rogers said. I should think, though,
also there is the idea of an entertainer, although I was highly paid.
Mr. Devine. Thank you.
The Chairman. Is there anything else ?
Mr. LisHMAN. No, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Huschle, for your ap-
pearance here. You may be excused.
Mrs. DuBarry Hillman.
Mrs. Hillman, will you be sworn, please? Do you solemnly swear
the testimony you give to this committee to be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Hillman. I do.
The Chairman. Will you please have a seat.
Mrs. Hillman, will you state your full name for the record ?
TESTIMONY OF ANTOINETTE DuBARRY HILLMAN
Mrs. Hillman. Antoinette DuBarry Hillman.
The Chairman. What is your address ?
Mrs. Hillman. 12 East 47th Street, New York City.
The Chairman. Do you have an occupation or business or pro-
fession ?
Mrs. Hillman. No.
The Chairman. Are you familiar with what is referred to com-
monly as the "Dotto" show ?
Mrs. Hillman. Yes.
The Chairman. Were you a contestant on the show ?
Mrs. Hillman. Yes, I was.
The Chairman. When ?
Mrs. Hillman. In February 1958. It was around the 22d or 23d,
somewhere in there.
The Chairman. How many times did you appear on the show ?
Mrs. Hillman. Five times.
The Chairman. Consecutively ?
Mrs. Hillman. Yes. Well, there was a weekend intermission, but
5 actual days.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 279
The Chairman. Very well, Mr. Lishman, you may proceed.
Mr. Lishman. Mrs. Hillman, you appeared on the daytime "Dotto"
show ?
Mrs. Hillman. Yes, I did.
Mr. Lishman. If I told you that you appeared on that show on
February 20, February 21, February 24 and February 25, in 1958,
would that be correct ?
Mrs. Hillman. I think so.
Mr. Lishman, Before you appeared as a contestant on "Dotto," did
anyone furnish you with questions and answers in advance of the
show, and on occasion also tell you the name of the person who would
be represented in the finished picture ?
Mrs. HiLLJiAN. Well, in a very — yes. Specifically, yes. It was not
done that precisely.
Mr. Lishman. Your answer is yes, and we would like to have you
explain how it was done.
Mrs. Hillman. Each morning we would go to the studio. We
would each be taken separately by Stan Green into a dressing room.
Mr. Lishman. Was it always Mr. Green that would do this?
Mrs. Hillman. With me it was. He would say, for instance, what
do you know about baseball. Then you would say what ? He would
say, well, who has a home run record, and you would say Babe Ruth.
Then he would ask a couple of other questions about baseball. Then
he would say if you don't know, for instance, oh, certainly you know,
it is Joe DiMaggio. Then he would say, how would you recognize
Mickey Mouse ? You woidd say he has little bitty ears and a button
nose and so forth. Actuall}^ the first day I was on the show he did
throw me a curve and I think quite inadvertently, because he asked
me in the preliminary thing liow I would recognize Victor Borge. We
went through this bit. Then when I got on the show and was answer-
ing the questions, I got my first clue and it was Danish. I didn't think
too much about that. Then the second clue was a musician. How
many Danish musicians do you know? I couldn't believe it was
possibly the man he mentioned because I thought this was all very
upright.
Mr. Lishman. Up to that point you thought it was honest?
Mrs. Hillman. Yes, I really did. Some of the questions sounded
a little familiar to me, but I thought they were being kind. It was
my fii"st day around. Finally I had to give in and say Victor Borge.
I was right and won, Wlien I went off the stage I popped over to
Mr. Green and started to thank him, and he said hush, hush. From
then we played the whole thing like a solemn minuet, like everybody
bowing and smiling and taking you back and forth and pretending
nothing at all was going on. We would have these little talks, but
we never came clean with each other. We got vei^'' cozy. Nice man
and everything else. We pretended notliing else was done.
Mr. Lishman. You pretended you didn't know what Mr. Green
was doing, and he pretended he didn't know what you were doing?
Mrs. H1L1.MAN. That is right.
Mr. Lishman. It is certainly a make-believe world, I can see that.
It is a fact that you were given the questions and answers by Mr.
Green on each and eveiy time that you appeared?
Mrs. Hillman. LTp until the last day.
280 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LisHMAN. Were you told on the last day that your services
as an actress would no longer be required?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. That is a perfect way of putting it. That morning
when I went in the little room with Mr. Green, he said today you
can go on cold.
Mr. LiSHMAN. He said what 'i
Mrs. HiLLMAN. He said today you go in cold. We sat and had a
cigarette and chatted perfectly amicably, and went in cold and missed
totally on the picture. Those "Dotto" pictures were hopeless unless
they did give you a little help.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You mean without a clue it would be almost impossi-
ble for a normal person to recognize them ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. I think so.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I think at this time, Mr. Chairman, I would like to
have a kinescopic reproduction of part of the ''Dotto*' show in the day-
time for Februaiy 25, 1958, in which Mrs. Hillman, the witness, ap-
peared as a "contestant."
(Showing of kinescope.)
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mrs. Hillman, after your appearances on "Dotto'" —
first of all I will ask you this question — was that an accurate repro-
duction of what actually happened during the time you were on
"Dotto"?
Mrs. Hillman. Certainly.
Mr. LiSHMAN. On February 25, 1958 ?
Mrs. Hillman. Yes, sir.
Mr, LiSHMAN. I would like to ask at the appropriate time when the
transcript is completed, the sound portion be included in the record.
The Chairman. Without objection, it will be included.
(Transcript of the sound track follows :)
"Announcer (Ralph Paul). From among the thousands of postcards we've re-
ceived, one of you now listening will receive a phone call. Stand by. In just
a few moments, you'll be asked if you can identify the famous face between these
dots. If you can^if you can tell us who this is, you'll win a truly fabulous
prize — a fleet of boats for an exciting summer on the water. All you have to do
is watch — watch these dots. [Fanfare.]
"D-o-t-t-o" (spelled out with musical background). "Dotto.'' The exciting
new quiz game, brought to you by Florient Air Deodorant. Kills bad roomi
odors fast. And here's your host for "Dotto" — .lack Narz. [Fanfare.]
Narz. Thank you. Thank you all, very much. Thank you very much indeed,
and on behalf of Florient — welcome to "Dotto." Again we turn dots into pic-
tures and pictures into dollars. Now in just a little while, we'll be making an-
other telephone call to see if one of our viewers out there can win that fabulous
prize — a fleet of boats. Meantime, I think we have a very exciting game for
you first off today. We're going to be playing double double dotto. These folks
have been on our show previously, but let's have Ralph Paul introduce them
again. Ralph, please.
Announcer. Jack, returning for the fifth day, Florient Air Deodorant wel-
come back our champion, a former reporter from Grand Rapids, Mich. — Mrs.
DuBarry Hillman — and her challenger who has tied her three times, a writer
Announcer. And so, here we are, three tie games later. In a moment we'll
be playing double double dotto. AVe'U be paying the winner .$80 for each un-
connected dot in his or her picture at the time of identification. That means
the pictures when you see them this mornhig will be worth $4,000. Now,
DuBarry, you have relieved our budget so far of $1,460, in spite of the fact
that — ah — you told me your husband calls you lazy. Now, what does he say
now, that you've come home a winner?
Hillman. Now he thinks I'm lazy and rich.
Narz. Lazy and rich. Does he [laughter] — does he have any other complaints?
from New York City, Mr. Joseph Rosier. [Applause.]
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 281
HiLLMAN. Well, he — ah — leaves a little odd reminder around the house for me.
You know — notes?
Narz. Oh, you mean to remind you to do things?
HiLLMAN. Yes, all kinds of things.
Narz. Well, let him leave the notes. Don't you leave that one for $1,460 lying
around or you won't see much of it.
Now, sir, yesterday you told us that — ah — you told us how you became a writer ;
however, I didn't get a chance to ask you what kind of things you write.
RosLER. Well, I usually write articles for women's magazines.
Narz. Well, for example.
RosLER. AVell, I did one recently on "How a Woman Can Read a Man's Char-
acter."
Narz. "How a Woman Can Read a Man's Character" ? Well, how can a woman
read a man's character? Tell it to me.
[Laughter.]
RosLER. I was gonna say— one way is, by the way he dresses.
Narz. Uh huh.
ROSLER. Ah
Narz. Well, pick ah — pick ah — an example of
RosLER. Some men for instance — uh — well, some men for instance will wear
both suspenders and a belt.
Narz. Well, what would that — ah — indicate?
RosLER. Oh — one thing it would indicate is that he's rather conservative.
Narz. Either that, or his pants are too darn big — one of the two. [Laughter.]
He isn't even a man's man — and he's already analyzing men here for you. Well,
I'll tell you what — we'll get to our double double dotto match in just a moment —
but right now : Ladies, when cooking, smoking or other household odors become
offensive, here's Colgate's tip on what to do.
Announcer. Colgate's Florient presents "Then and Now". In ye good old
days, the housewife led an easy life. In her spacious log home she found cooking
delightful. It was so fragrant — all smells blended togethei'. Not only cooking
but other odors as well. If the family didn't like it, they knew what to do. But,
that was before the days of Florient — Colgate's new aerosol air deodorant. Now
whenever odors of cooking, pets in the house, or smoking, become offensive, today's
housewife knows that one spray of Colgate's Florient will immediately make the
air small llower fresh. Yes, Florient kills bad odors fast, and now comes in
four fragrances. The popular Floral, new tangy Spice, refreshing Mint, or zesty
Pine. Only Florient gives you this choice. Get Florient today. No wick, no
wait, no waste.
I\AKz. AVe d like to ask you to try this terrific air deodorant, Florient. It now
comes in four fragrances, incidentally — Floral, Spice, Mint, or Fine. There you
are, .Toe ; there you are, DuBarry. It's time to get our big match under way.
Good luck to both of you. Remember we'll be paying $80 for each unconnected
dot — double double dotto. So good luck to you both. Step back to the dotto
boards, please.
[Music] Now let's reveal those dotto pictures. Today — worth $4,000.
[Chimes.] Joe and DuBarry, as you know, you have identical pictures — how-
ever, one cannot .see the other's. Now as soon as you recognize the picture,
press the signal for dotto — because, the sooner you identify the picture, the more
money you'll make. You'll be paid $80 for every dot that remains unconnected.
Joe, would you try the dotto button, please. [Buzz.] Fine, it works. And
DuBarry. [Bell.] Okay, we're all set to go. You're still in the role of a chal-
lenger, Joe, and our first category — European literature. Would you like to try
to coiniect 5, 8, or 10 dots in this picture?
RosLER. I think I'll go for 10, Jack.
Narz. All righty. What English novelist wrote "Tess of the D'Urbervilles"?
Rosler. Uh — that's — ah — Thomas Hardy.
Narz. Yes, sir, you are right. And there are 10 dots for you, Joe. [Applause.]
tMusic]
There we are. Ten connected dots in your picture. Forty imconnected.
Your picture worth $3,200. Let's try for that fast identification now. DuBarry,
Eurojyean literature is our — ah — category. A 5, an 8, or a 10 for you?
HiLLMAN. I'll have to take 10 on that.
Narz. Gonna try to stay up with Joe, huh?
HiLLMAN. Stay up with Joe.
282 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Narz. What English novelist wrote "Outcast of the Island" and "Victoi-y"?
HiLLMAN. Joseph Conrad.
Narz. Yes ma'am, you're right. Here are 10 dots for you.
[Applause.] [Music] And, we're all tied up with 10 dots each. The pic-
tures are worth $3,200. Incidentally, all our questions are verified by the — ah —
the editorial board of the Encyclopedia Americana. And, Joe, our next category
is famous TV friends. Would you like to try for 5, 8, or 10 on this one?
RosLER. I think I can chance 10 again. Jack.
Narz. Okay. AVhat is the name of the famous heavy-set soldier, named for a
type of dog, who is a friend of Sergeant Bilko?
RosLER. Oh — ah — that's — ah — Doberman.
Narz. Yeah, that's right. Doberman is right. Here's 10 more dots for you,
Joe. [Applause.] [Music]
Well, there we are. Twenty connected dots on your picture. Thirty uncon-
nected. Your picture worth $2,400.
Champ, the category — famous TV friends. A 5, an 8, or a 10 this time?
HiLLMAN. I'll try another 10.
Narz. Another ten. Name the actress who played the wife of Jackie Gleason
in the "Honeymooners."
HiLLMAN. Audrey Meadows.
Narz. Yes, ma'am, you're right. There's 10 more dots for you, DuBarry.
[Applause.] [Music]
Okay, we're still all tied up — with 20 connected dots each — 30 unconnected —
the picture's worth $2,400. And, Joe, this time, remember you can get your clue
at the 25th dot. And. our category — American Territories. Would you like to
go for 5. S, or 10 this time?
RosT.ER. Well, I could probably use 10 — but — ah — I think I'd better try the 8.
Narz. All righty — 8 — and if answered correctly, will, of course, give you your
first clue. Name the vast tract of land in the central United States purchased
from France for $15 million.
RosLER. Oh, that's the — ah — the Louisiana Purchase.
Narz. Yes, sir. You're right. [Applause.] Eight more dots for you, Joe.
And your first clue. [Music] There you are — with 28
ROSLER. Oh
Narz. Connected dots — and the clue.
Rosler. [Buzzer.]
Narz. And — you think you know who it is. Okay, we'll hold everything here,
and give Joe a chance to identify this picture. Joe, with 22 unconnected dots
in your picture, it is worth $1,760. As you know, if the identification is wrong,
you'll be eliminated from our game. Now, DuBarry will not be able to see
your answer. Will you step over to the Dottograph and write the name?
[Music] Yes, sir — you are right. [Applause.] You are absolutely right, Joe.
That's who it is. Now please stand by.
DuBarry, Joe has correctly identified this picture. As you know, in order for
you to stay in our game, you must come up with an identification at this time.
If you do, we'll have another tie game ; we'll go on to play hundred dollar
"Dotto." We're going to give you 10 seconds to think it over, DuBarry. Good
luck. [Music]
DuBarry, time is up. Do you have any idea who it might be?
-HiLLMAN. I — I really don't. But I'm going to say John Foster Dulles.
Narz. No, I'm sorry, that is wrong. And that means we have a new "Dotto"
champion over here — Mr. Joseph Rosier. [Applause.] [Fanfare.]
Congratulations, Joe. Be with you in just a moment.
Well, DuBarry, unfortunately, it was not John — you said John Foster Dulles.
It's Andy Devine. Andy Devine.
HiLLMAN. [Laughter.]
Narz. Jingles — on television.
HiLLMAN. I really didn't get it. [Laughter.]
Narz. You didn't get it. Well, that's too bad. However, DuBarry, you've
done very well on our show. You've won $1,460.
HiLLMAN. I know it. I know it.
Narz. Maybe that'll help out with Dodger's operation.
HiLLMAN. It'll help out a lot.
Narz. Good. Thank you so much for being with us, DuBarry — you're a won-
derful contestant. Bye Bye. Good luck.
HiLLMAN. Thank you so much. Jack. [Applause.]
IISrVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 283
Mr. LiSHMAN. After your final appearances as an actress on "Dot-
to," did your husband write an article for Time mao:azine on TV
quiz shows?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Yes. This was after the story broke in August
1958.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did he obtain some of his information from you?
Mrs. HiLLMAN, Certainly.
Mr. LisKMAx. Colgate-Palmolive-Peet were the sponsors of tliis
prooram, were they not, while you were there ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. I think so.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did any representative of the CBS network at any
time come to you to inquire as to whether or not you had been fur-
nished the questions and answers in advance ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. No.
Mr. LisiiMAN. I have no further questions.
The Chairman, Mr. Rogers.
Mr. Rogers. Mrs. Hillman, how long were you on the show ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Five days.
Mr. Rogers. Five days ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. Did you know about it from the first day that you
went on, that there were some practices going on that were not ex-
actly in the knowledge of the people watching the show ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Yes. Certainly I was surprised myself.
Mr. Rogers. You say you were surprised ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. On the first day ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. But you did continue on the show ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Certainly.
Mr. Rogers. How much money did you make ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. $1,460.
Mr. Rogers. $1,460?
Mrs. HiLLMAN, Yes,
Mr. Rogers. Did it ever occur to you, Mre, Hillman, or did you
think about it from a moral standpoint what you were doing might
be taking part in something that was fraudulent insofar as the
American public was concerned ?
Mrs, HiLLMAN, I really didn't.
Mr. Rogers. You say you really didn't ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN, No.
Mr. Rogers, Have you ever worried about about what you did ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Honestly, I am perfectly blithe about it.
Mr. Rogers. You think it was all right ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. Nothing wrong with it as long as you can make the
people believe that you are being honest; that answers the question.
Mrs. HiLLMAN. They were having a happy time; so was I. Every-
body was.
Mr. Rogers, As long as they are having a happy time. Would
you think that same thing applied to contests in football or baseball
or basketball or boxing ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN, No, Because those are genuine sporting events.
They are not put on per se as an entertainment. Wrestling, I think,
is a perfectly good analogy.
284 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Rogers. Mrs. Hillman, are you not making a distinction be-
tween the mental processes and the physical athletic processes?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. In other words, this was supposed to be a battle of
wits, was it not?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Yes.
Mr. RocJERS. In a contest of boxing, it is a battle of fists?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Certainly.
Mr. Rogers. What is your distinction ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Just that most boxers don't have sponsors.
Mr. Rogers. Do not have what ? Would you say that again ?
Mi's. HiLL]MAN. I said most boxers don't have sponsors.
Mr. Rogers. Tliere was some question about that in some recent
revelations I think concerning the boxing situation as well as basket-
ball, and one or two times in baseball and some other sports.
You feel that as long as it is entertaimnent, it makes no difference
whether it is honest or dislionest insofar as the participants are con-
cerned, if the people are entertained ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. I really don't. I don't think it is that serious.
Mr. Rogers. You do not think it is serious at all ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. No.
Mr. Rogers. You do not think this situation is serious with regard
to the "Twenty-one" show ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. It may have implications in terms of, you know, ad-
vertising, all that kind of thing. I never thought of that as a con-
test. I didn't have any moral qualms about it.
Mr. Rogers. Of course, they got caught.
Mrs. HiLLMAN. I don't mean that at all.
Mr. Rogers. If they had not got caught, the advertising phase of
this would not have been afl'ected ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. No. Listening yesterday I could realize that it
might make it very difficult for a rival linn to come up with a spright-
lier program.
Mr. Rogers. Do you volunteer your testimony or did someone come
to discuss this with you ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Here?
Mr. Rogers. Your testimony here,
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Yes. Mr. Howze came to see me.
Mr. Rogers. Were you called before the New York grand jury?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. You w^ere subpenaed to appear there ?
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. Thank you very much.
The Chairman. Thank you very much for your voluntary appear-
ance here.
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Am I excused ?
The Chairman. Yes, you may be excused.
Mrs. HiLLMAN. Thank you.
The Chairman. Mr. Edward Hilgemeier. Will you be sworn ?
Do you soleimily swear the testimony you give this committee to
be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
IlSn^ESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 285
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD HILGEMEIEE, JR.
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I do.
The Chairman. Will you have a seat ?
Will you state your full name to the committee ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Edwarcl Hilgemeier, Jr.
The Chairman. What is your address ^
Mr. Hilgemeier. 82-39 13-ith Street, Hugh Gardens 35, New York.
The CiiAiRiNiAN. What is your business or profession ?
Mr. Hilgemeier. I am a comedian, sir. I am honest.
The Chairman. Are you employed now ?
]Mr. Hilgemeier. No, sir ; I am not. , ;
The Chairman. Unemployed comedian ?
Mr. Hilgemeier. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Hilgemeier, are you familiar with the show
commonly called "Dotto" ?
Mr. Hilgemeier. Yes, sir ; I am.
The Chairman. Were you a contestant on the show ?
Mr. Hilgemeier. I was a standby contestant for "'Dotto," yes. .
The Chairman. When?
Mr. Hilgemeier. On May 20, 1958.
The Chairman. Did you ever appear on the show ? ,
Mr. Hilgemeier. No, I didn't.
The Chairman. Were you a standby only one time?
Mr. Hilgemeier. Yes, sir ; I was.
The Chairman. Mr. Lishman, you may proceed.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Hilgemeier, are you popularly known as the man
vho blew the whistle on the TV quiz show business?
Mr. Hilgemeier. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. Lishman. I am going to hand you a paper and ask you to
dentif y it. This is a copy of an original document.
I ask you to look at it and identify it, please.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Hilgemeier. Yes, sir.
JNIr. Lishman. What is this paper that has just been handed to you?
Mr. Hilgemeier. This is an affidavit that was drawn up by myself
md Jack O'Grady of the New York Post and submitted to the FCC in
A'^ashington, and also to the New York district attorney's office.
Mr. Lishman. At this point, Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer in
.he record a copy of the affidavit verified July 25, 1958, by the witness,
Hilgemeier.
The Chairman. Do you have the original of this, Mr. Lishman ?
]Mr. Lishman. We have the original, but the witness has testified
hat this is a correct copy.
The Chairman. Mr. Hilgemeier, you have just been handed this
itatement.
Mr. Hilgemeier. Yes.
The Chairman. Have you seen tliis particular statement you have
)efore you? .
Mr. Hilgemeier. Yes, sir ; I have.
The Chairman. You have had occasion to go over it?
Mr. Hilgemeier. I wrote it, sir, with Jack O'Grady of the New
fork Post.
52294— 60— pt. 1 19
286 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
The Chairman. You wrote the original ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you liad an opportunity to look over the copy
to see if it is a true copy of the original ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes.
The Chairman. You identify it as a true copy of the original which
you signed ?
Mr. Hilgemeier. To the best of my knoAvledge, yes.
The Chairman. I want you to look over it to the extent that you
wish.
Mr. Hilgemeier. I don't remember the exact wording of it, sir.
Yes, sir ; it is a true copy.
Mr. LisHMAN. In order to make the identification perfectly com-
plete, I am going to hand you the original of the mimeographed
exhibit attached to this affidavit and ask you to compare it with that
copy and see if it is not exactly the same as this original document.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Hilgemeier. Yes, sir; it is a true copy. This is the original
copy.
Mr. LisHMAN. And the mimeographed copy attached ?
Mr. Fltnt. Original copy of wdiat ? We cannot hear what is going
on up here.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Explain what this paper that you are now holding is.
Mr. Hilgemeier. This piece of paper I am holding is the notebook
page which I i-emoved from Miss Winn's notebook in the ""Dotto"
studio on May 20, 1958. These are the answers to the questions that
were given to Miss Winn by Jack Narz ; not given, but asked by Jack
Narz on the "Dotto" show.
Mr. LisHMAN. Mr. Chairman, with this identification I would like
to have a copy of Mr. Hilgemeier's affidavit inti-oduced in the record.
The Chairman. You intend to question him about the affidavit?
Mr. LisHMAN. Yes.
The Chairman. I^t it be included in the record.
(Affidavit referred to follows : )
State of New York,
Cmmty of New York : i
Eddie Hilgemeier. being duly sworn, deposes and says :
1. That on July 11, 1958, in the office of attorney Walter Schier, 608 Fifth Ave.,
I was paid $1,500 in lieu of legal action against CBS, Frank Cooper Associates, I
and/or the Colgate-Palmolive Co.. which are, respectively, the network, producers .
and sponsors of a television quiz show called "Dotto."
2. That my suit would have been based on a charge of fraud and conspiracy
in that I learned that a contestant on the show was given the answers to ques-
tions which were to be asked on the show. In addition, the same contestant was
given the identification of the persons whose caricatures were to be used on the
show.
3. That the contestant who had this information could not be defeated, thereby
victimizing not only other contestants, but the vast television audience watching'
the show in the naive belief that they were seeing an honest test of knowledge.
4. That, upon learning the show was a fraud, I refused to appear as sched-
uled and make myself a party to this deceit and conspiracy, despite many induce-
ments and enticement s offered me at first, and threats and abuse later.
5. That (m May 20, 1958, I was a standby contestant on "Dotto," which is
produced by Frank Cooper Associates. 17 E. 54th St., under the sponsorship of
Colgate-Palmolive, and seen over the CBS, Channel 2, network from 11 :30 a.m.
to noon weekdays. I appeared, as ordered, at 9:30 a.m. this day at a CBS
studio at 261 W. 47th St.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 287
6. That I shared a dressing room with three other contestants, two of whom
were introduced to me as YelTe Kimball Slatin and Maria Winn. I do not recall
the name of the third contestant, a man.
7. That during the pi-eparations for the show, Art Henley, whom I had met
previously while being interviewed as a possible contestant for "Dotto," would
take one or two of the contestants out of the dressing room for interviews con-
cerning what we would say on the show, mainly our occupation and anecdotes.
8. That during this period, I was left alone with Miss Winn, whom I observed
writing in a notebook. She continued to write in this notebook for a brief period
as iliss Kimball and the other contestant returned. Miss Winn told us that she
was a student at Columbia University ; that she had been "champion" on "Dotto"
for two days, and that she had amassed winnings of over $500, and that she
expected and hoped to win a lot more.
9. That about 11 :15 a.m., the contestants were taken to the stage for a dress
rehearsal ; that I observed an undue amount of familiarity between Miss Winn
and employes of the studio and associates of the "Dotto" show.
10. That my suspicions became further aroused during the contest between
Miss Winn and the first contestant, who was Miss Kimball. It seemed to me
Miss Winn had the answers on the tip of her tongue before the question was
completed.
11. That I returned to the dressing room alone to search for the notebook in
whicli Miss Winn had been writing ; that I found it and it contained the answers
which I had just heard Miss Winn giving in her contest with Miss Kimball, and
it contained answers which appeared to be for subsequent shows. I ripped out
the pages and returned to the wings of tlie stage just as Miss Kimball was coming
off, having lost to Miss Winn.
12. That I informed Miss Kimball : "This is a fixed show."
13. That I showed to Miss Kimball the pages I had torn from Miss Wimi's
notebook, and that Miss Kimball asked to be shown the notebook. We returned
to tlie dressing room and I showed Miss Kimball the notebook. We left the
studio together, not talking to anyone about what we had found, and determined
to seek legal advice. Miss Winn was still on stage.
14. That we had photostatic copies made of the notes I had found, that same
afternoon of May 20, 1958.
15. That Miss Kimball and I took our story and the notes from Miss Winn's
book to an attorney suggested by Miss Kimball, Arthur Seiff, 157 W. 57th St. and
that he, in turn, telephoned another attorney, Sidney Hoffman, 280 Broadway.
16. That Mr. Hoffman, by telephone, advised me not to appear on "Dotto,"
and to come to his office as soon as possible.
17. That at 6 p.m. on May 20, 1958, I was in the offices of "Dotto" at the Hotel
Woodstock, 127 W. 43d St., explaining what I had foimd, and why I would not ap--
pear on "Dotto," to Ed Jurist, producer of the show.
17. That Jurist told me that he could not understand how Miss Winn got
the answers, and that if I would overlook it he would promise me that I conld
go on the show a week or two later and be "guaranteed" prize money. Or, he
said I could wait for the nighttime version of "Dotto," then scheduled to debut
on July 1, when the financial rewards would be greater. I left his office with
nothing settled.
18. That Miss Winn, who had tied the second contestant on May 20th, did
not appear on the sIkjw the following day, with ma ster-of -ceremonies Jack Narz
explaining that she was ill and would be back on the show when she recovered.
That she lias not returned to the show since then, to my knowledge.
19. That on May 22d, 1958, Miss Kimball and I visited Mr. Hoffman and re-
tained him to handle our grievance against "Dotto."
20. That on or about May 31, 1958, Mr. Hoffman told me by telephone that
Frank Cooper Associates had made an offer consisting of $2,000 for Miss Kim-
ball, and $500 for me, to avoid a legal suit.
20. That I refused the offer, instructing Mr. Hoffman to point out to Frank
CJooper Associates that I felt I had been hurt careerwise ; that I had been a con-
testant on six other television shows on which I had earned a good reputation ;
;hat I depended upon TV in part for my livelihood as an actor, and that I
wouldn't jeopardize all that.
21. That Mr. Hoffman told me that if I didn't settle now tliat I would be hurt
?areerwise. The matter was left unsettled.
22. That on or about the 18th of June 1958, I went to Mr. Hoffman's office. He
;old me that he settled the case in behalf of Miss Kimball for $4,000. He showed
ne a letter which said "enclosed please find" and then something about a $4,000
288 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
check payable to Mr. Hoffman and Miss Kimball. Mr. Hoffman told me that Miss ^
Kimball received over $2,600 of the settlement. His fee was one-third of the
settlement. Mr. Hoffman said I could settle for $1,000. I refused.
23. That on July 11, 1958, I telephoned Frank Cooper Associates and spoke to
a "Mr. Fisher," being referred to him by Mr. Jurist. Mr. Fisher asked me to !
come to see him immediately. He told me: "We'll give you $1,500 and that's it.'' {.
He accused me of blackmail, extortion, and threatened to call the police and ji
newspapers. I
24. That I agreed to accept $1,500 and that Mr. Fisher directed me to go to |i
Mr. Schier's office. i
25. That I was accompanied to Mr. Schier's office by Jack O'Grady of the New
York Post.
26. That Mr. Schier refused to permit Mr. O'Grady to attend the meeting, '
during which I signed three papers which I believe to be (1) a general release,
(2) a notice that I was acting without attorney, and, (3) a statement that I was
being paid in lieu of becoming a contestant on "Dotto." That Mr. Schier re-
fused to give me copies of the signed papers.
27. That Mr. Schier gave me $1,500 in 15 $100 bills, serial numbers
K01634349A, BO5421306A, B06642979A, B06691315A through B06691326A.
28. That a photostatic copy of the notes I tore from Miss Winn's notebook,
while she was on the air giving the answ^ers contained on the page, is attached
hereto as a part of this affidavit.
( S ) Eddie Hilgemeier.
Sworn to before me this 25th day of July 1958.
( S ) Arthur J. McGuire, Notary Public.
(Notary stamp affixed.)
(In handwriting as follows : )
Bing Crosby —
Barry Fitzgerald — Abbie Players.
Donald Duck — 3 Nephews
Dagwood — Mr. Dithers.
Short Stories — Hemingway —
Zhukhov —
Alexanders Ragtime Band.
Band Played On.
MacNamaras Band.
Johnsons Polar Garden.
Sewards Folly.
May 20, 1958.
(S) EH 7/25/58.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Now, Mr. Hilgemeier, how did you come to be a
standby contestant on May 20, 1958, of the show "Dotto" ?
Mr. Hilgemeier. I don't remember the correct date, whether it was
May 18 or 19, I appeared in the "Dotto" studio. That is studio 62
on West 47th Street in Manhattan, just to see the show itself. I hlled
out an application in the audience and after the show was over I was
called by Mr. Art Henley, who discussed
Mr. LiSHMAN. Who is Mr. Art Henley ?
Mr. Hilgemeier. He was an official of the Frank Cooper office or the
"Dotto" office. I am not sure.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Frank Cooper Associates were the producers of this|
show ?
Mr. Hilgemeier. Yes, sir ; they were.
Mr. Henley spoke to me in regard to becoming a contestant on the
"Dotto" show and asked if I would not stop by his office that afternoon
about 2 o'clock. So I went to the "Dotto" office in the Woodstock
Hotel on West 44th Street in IManhattan, at which time I took a test,
a series of tests, for becoming a contestant on "Ditto."
4
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 289
I took the test and afterward I was told that he would like for me
to appear in the "Dotto" studio on May 20, West 47th Street, which I
did.
JMr. LiSHMAN. You appeared there to be a contestant on the show,
is that correct '^
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes. I told Mr. Henley that I had appeared on
six other television quiz shows.
The ChaikMxVn. You told who?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I told Mr. Henley that I appeared on six other
quiz shows since September 1957, and he became very interested in it.
And he asked me if I would come on the show.
Mr. LisiiiMAN. What happened in the dressing room when you were
there as a standby contestant on "Dotto"' ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I got to the dressing room and there were two
other people there at the time. Miss Kimball, Miss Maria Winn, and
a third party who I didn't know the name.
Mr. LisuMAN. Were the two persons named by you actually con-
testants on the "Dotto" show ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes, sir ; they were.
I sat down and began talking with the other contestants to be on
the "Dotto" show. At this time Miss Winn was writing something
in a notebook, paying particular attention that other people in the
dressing room would not see what she was writing.
At a later time another gentleman came in who was identified to me
as one of the challenging contestants on the show.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What happened then ?
ISIr. HiLGEiSiEiER. I don't remember the gentleman's name. I think
it was Mr. Henley or it was Mr. Green, who would come into the
dressing room.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Would you identify Mr. Green ? Was he connected
with the show ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. He was comiected with the "Dotto" show itself.
Mr. LisiiMAN. The producers of the "Dotto" show ?
Mr. HiLGE^iEiER. Yes. He would come in and take each of us in-
dividuals to another dressing room whereby he would go over the
anecdotes of the show, such as personality, what is our background,
what we have done. Then he would ask a series of questions, tiying
to pin down our general knowledge whereby they could ask questions
pertaining to it.
Mr. LisiiMAN. After you had seen the contestant. Miss Winn, write
in her notebook, what did you do ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I didn't pay that much attention to it at the time.
Wlien we went down to the stage area for the show itself and had a
runthrough rehearsal, I noticed Miss Winn had a great deal of famili-
arity with the other people in the studio.
A yoimg lady appeared on the set before the show and escorted
Miss Winn back into the back part of the stage area. The show
started and INIiss Winn was defeating Miss Kimball.
^^^ly I went back to the dressing room to find this notebook, I can't
tell you. I just went back. The notebook was on the dressing table
and I opened it to the last page in the notebook and I found the
answers that Miss Winn just defeated Miss Kimball by. Those are
the answers you have.
290 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LiSHMAN. You tore the page out of the notebook ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I removed the page from the notebook.
Mr. LisHMAN. "VNHiat did you do then?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I Went back to the stage area itself and confronted
Miss Kimball and told her that Miss Winn had the answers and
questions.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What did Miss Kimball say to you ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. She became very upset at the time. We went
back to the dressing room to pick up her belongings and left the studio
itself.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You did?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I left the studio with Miss Kimball.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did you take the piece of paper that you tore from
the notebook with you ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Is a true and correct copy of that piece of paper
attached to this affidavit which is in evidence ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes ; it is.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Will you please read what is contained on this torn
page of Miss Winn's notebook?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Ill auswer to the pictures: Bing Crosby; Barry
Fitzgerald, Abbie Players is the clue; picture Donald Duck, and the
clue is the three nephews ; picture Dagwood, the clue Mr. Dithers.
Short stories by Hemingway, Zhukhov, Alexander's Ragtime Band,
Band Played On, MacNamara's Band, Johnson's Polar Garden, Sew-
ard's Folly.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to ask for
a kinescopic showing of the "Dotto" show on the morning of May 20,
1958, which immediately followed this notebook incident which has
been described.
( Showing of kinescopic production. )
(Transcript of the sound track follows.)
Ralph Paul. In just a few moments, the first phone call. Stand by. You
may be phoned. You'll be asked if you can identify this face. If you can, you
will win a fabulous prize. All you have to do is watch — watch these dots.
"Dotto." "Dotto," the exciting new quiz game, brought to you by Colgate Dental
Cream. Fight tooth decay with Colgate's while you stop bad breath all day.
And here's your host for "Dotto," Jack Narz. [Fanfare.]
Narz. Hi, everybody. Thank you very much. Tonight, on behalf of Colgate,
may I welcome all of you to "Dotto." New York is all aflutter this morning;
we have two very famous people visiting us. President Eisenhower is here,
and Van Cliburn, the young Texan pianist who scored such a big hit over in
Moscow, is also in town and repeated his triumph last night here in New York.
And with two famous people in town, we are having a big parade this afternoon,
and it's gonna be one of those great-big ticker-tape parades, you know. He just
can't seem to shake pianoplayers, this guy, does he? This is the show, you know,
that used to be on the air every day, Monday through Friday, here on CBS. And
what we do is, we have a series of dots back here which, when they are con-
nected, form a picture, and those pictures turn into dollars for our studio con-
testants. Now, today we'll be making our first phone call to you at home to
see if you can identify our home "Dotto" picture and maybe win that cavalcade
of three fine cars. We will find out in just a few moments, but right now let's
meet our first two guests. Ralph, please?
Paul. Well, Jack, getting us off on a solid note — returning for the second day,
Colgate Dental Cream welcomes back our new champion from New York, Miss
Marie Winn, and her challenger from Mountain Park, Okla., Mrs. Yeffe Kimball.
[Applause.]
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 291
Narz. Now, first of all, let's talk to our new champ, who yesterday won $440.
I guess that makes you feel pretty good, doesn't it, Marie?
Winn. Oh, I guess it does.
Narz. Well, good enough. What are you going to do with all that loot? Spend
it all in one place or are you going to keep it?
Winn. Well, I haven't decided, but
Nabz. How did you spend your evening — tossing?
Winn. Oh, I really had a swell time. Jack. I spent some little time with
Latin, then with symbolic logic, then with music
Narz. Marie, you know, I hate to say this, but I don't think we're gonna have
any questions concerning those subjects on "Dotto" this morning. Maybe you
were studying the wrong thing. We'll find out in a moment. Let's talk to your
challenger now. Yeffe Kimball, from Mount Park, Okla.
Kimball. Mountain Park.
Narz. Mountain Park. I'm sorry ; Mountain Park, Okla. You're part Osage
Indian?
Kimball. Right.
Narz. Ilh, hugh. And your husband is an atomic scientist. You are a spe-
cialist on Indian work. May I ask you, first of all, what the name Yeffe — and
that's spelled Y-e-f-f-e — what does that mean ?
Kimball. Wandering Star.
Narz. Wandering Star? You mean like Sonny Tufts, or somebody like that?
No? [Laughter.] Do you understand Indian — the dress, too, may I ask, is this
authentic?
Kimball. Well, this is the Sisuki Indian dress that the Rio Grande Valley
Indians copied from the Spaniards' shirts when they came out there in the early
16th century.
Narz. Were these worn in those days?
Kimball. The men wore these shirts, and then the women copied them for
themselves.
Narz. Would you step out front here where we could get a shot of it and
have everybody take a look at the dress. Isn't that beautiful? It's very color-
ful, Yeffe, real nice. [Applause.] How about Indian sign language? Do the
Osage use sign language?
Kimball. The Indians all use sign language.
Narz. Do you understand it? Can you use it?
Kimball. Yes. Let's say I had to ride a horse all the way here to get to this
program
Narz. In New York City, boy, yeah. Yep
Kimball. I would start out early in the morning and I would get on my horse
and I would ride all day until sundown at night, then I would lie down and go
to sleep, then I would get up on my horse and I would ride all night long and
come back to sunrise and I would be here.
Narz. And that would just about cover going across town here in New York.
Believe me, that's about as fast as you can make it in a cab. Well, Yeffe and
Marie, we'll start our first match in just a moment. Right now, a word to you
folks. Do you know who was the first to pxit toothpaste in a tube? Colgate,
that's right. And now, who was the first with an aerosol toothpaste? Colgate!
Watch.
Announcer. Tou can't learn too early that one brushing with Colgate Dental
Cream helps give the surest protection all day long. Yoii fight tooth decay with
Colgate while you stop bad breath all day. Brushing for brushing, Colgates
gives the surest protection ever offered by any toothpaste. Of all leading
brands, only Colgate contains Gardol. And here's how Gardol works. Now,
just as I was protected by this invisible shield, Colgate with Gardol forms an
invisible protective shield around your teeth. Fights tooth decay and bad
breath all day. Yes, for most people just one brushing stops mouth odor all
day. Get Colgate Dental Cream. And have you tried America's first aerosol
dentifrice? Colgates with Gardol in the most convenient container ever. Just
press the top and release the desired amount. Real fingertip ease. And whether
at the push of a button or squeeze of a tube, remember to fight tooth decay with
Colgate, while you stop bad breath all day. (Last portion sung.)
Narz. And Yeffe and Marie, for each of you we have some Colgate Dental
Cream with Gardol and Power-Packed Colgate. OK, all set now to go with
our first match. Good luck, ladies, and would you take your positions back
at the Dotto boards, please? And now let's reveal the Dotto pictures, today
292 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
worth $1,000. Now as you know, you have identical pictures. However, you
cannot see each other's. And remember the sooner you identify the picture
the more money you'll make. We'll pay you .$20 for each dot that remains un- ;
connected. Yeffe, would you try your Dotto button, please? (Buzzer) OK, \
and Marie? (Buzzer) OK, fine, they both work and we're ready to go. Yeffe !
our first category, documents of history. Now you have your choice of 5, 8 or !
10 dots. Now think carefully because if you miss the questions the dots you
ask for will be connected in your opponent's picture. Documents of history
Kimball. Well, I'd better play it safe and take 5. :
Nakz. Five. Was the great religious reformer who tacked his 95 theses to \
the church door Martin Luther or John Wesley ? i
Kimball. Martin Luther.
Narz. That is right. Yes, ma'am, and here are your 5 connected dots, Yeffe. ]
OK, 5 dots connected, 45 unconnected. Your picture is worth $900, Yeffe. Marie,
documents of history is our category. Five, eight or ten for you? |
Winn. Well, you know I did take a history course. I think I'll try 10. !
Narz. Ten. Name the man who wrote the famous "Fourteen Points." !
Winn. Woodrow Wilson. |
Nabz. That is right, yes, ma'am, here are your 10 connected dots. All righty, !
10 dots are connected in your picture, 40 unconnected. It's worth $800. And
all of our questions are verified by the editorial board of the Encyclopedia
Americana. I see Yeffe squinting, working real hard over there. You recognize i
it yet ? We'll go on with i
Kimball. Not yet. j
Narz. American short stories is our next category, Yeffe. American short
stories — 5, 8 or 10?
Kimball. Well, I'll try 10. 1
Narz. Ten. Here we go. Surgeon, soldier, sailor, spy, dreamed Thurber'a j
great creation. Though Walter's life was mighty dry, he had imagination, i
Name that story. j
Kimball. Will you repeat that, please?
Narz. (Repeats) Can you name that story — (bell rings). Oh, you don't know?
It's one of my favorites. "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty." Yeffe, I'm sorry ,
you didn't answer that question, and because you fell through, the 10 dots you j
asked for will now be connected in Marie's picture. Marie, 10 dots for you. >
(Music — dots being connected.) OK, now you have 20 dots connected in your
picture, Marie. You can go for your first clue on this question. The category, !
American short stories.
Winn. I think maybe I know it.
Narz. Well, you can do whatever you want to. You can press your button
for dotto, we'll give you a chance to make the identification, or you can go one i
more question to go for the first clue, whatever you want to do. j
Winn. All right, I'll go for one more question. I'll take the five. , ■
Narz. OK, to give you the clue. All right. A horror story of greed and j
hate as — Poe did spin it ; a cellar of wine was the bait, the man was walled within 1
it. Was that story "The Cask of Amontillado" or "The Telltale Heart?"
Winn. "The Cask of Amontillado."
Narz. You are right. Here are your five connected dots. Here's your clua.
(Music — dots being connected.) All righty, there are 25 connected dots in your
picture. $.500 is riding on your answer. Marie, you understand that if you are \
mistaken you'll be eliminated from the game? OK. All right, Yeffe will not
be able to see your answer. Just step right over there and write it out, please.
[Music] You are absolutely right, Marie. Now please stand by. Yeffe. she
has identified her picture, and oh boy, let's see how you do. Now. You have
only five dots connected in your picture. However, we will give you another 10 ,
seconds to study that picture. I know you have been squinting at it real hard. |
Let's see if you can put those dots together and come up with the right answer "
and tie up our game. Good luck, Yeffe. [Music]
Kimball. Gee, I don't think I can, but I'll take a guess.
Narz. All right, you're entitled to a guess.
Kimball. It looks like Winston Churchill.
Narz. No, I'm sorry. That means that Marie Winn remains our dotto cham- j:
pion. She correctly identified Barry Fitzgerald. [Applause.] Of course the i
first clue was Abbey player — that arm chair would have helped you a lot.
Thanks so much, Yeffe, for playing dotto for us. The makers of Colgate have
for you a check for $25, Yeffe. Thanks again. Good luck. Marie you have won
another $500, you now have a total of $940. You are still our champion and in
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 293
a very short time we'll have a brand new challenger for you, so please stand by.
And in just a moment we will connect 10 more dots to our home dotto picture
and make our first phone call. But right now, here's the story about the greatest
washday development of our time. I know you ladies want to wash your family
clothes in the very best detergent there is, and do you know the men who make
those clothes recommend this new Fab with Duratex, because new Fab washes
clothes cleaner, whiter, brighter, and more lastingly odor-free than any other
washday product in the world. That's right ; the makers of almost 1 billion
fabric products a year have tested and approved new Fab. Now for instance,
from the makers of Pacific contour sheets comes this report on new Fab from
research director C. B. Morris :
Morris. Our scientists rated Fab A-1 on every test, but when it came to
over protection we checked their findings with this panel of housewives, the
ladies who actually use our sheets in their own homes. Different wear-long
Washday products were used to launder them for 3 weeks. It was unanimous.
Fab-washed sheets scored highest right across the board. Our technicians and
our panel voted for Fab. As a result, Fab gets our wholehearted recommenda-
tion. It's tops. That's why every Pacific contour sheet has this advice printed
more manufacturers who recommend new Fab with Duratex.
Narz. Thank you, Mr. Morris. And your favorite store has new Fab with
Duratex now. Yes, any Fab you buy now contains miracle Duratex. So get
a box for your family's wash today. New Fab with Duratex. Incidentally, the
folks who make Fortuna foundation garments and Weldon pajamas are two
more manufacturers who recommend new Fab with Duratex.
And now I recommend we all take a look at the home dotto picture as Mr.
Ralph Paul connects 10 more dots.
Paul. Thank you, Jack. That phone call in a moment, but first the 10 dots.
Each day 10 dots are connected in our home dotto picture. Now the first person
that we call at home who can identify this face will receive a fabulous prize.
And now here are the 10 dots for today. (Music — dots being connected.)
Narz. OK, there are the 10 dots for today. Now it's time for our first phone
call, and Ralph, whose card was drawn today?
Paul. Well, Jack, we received cards from all over these United States, and
today our call goes all the way to New York, to Brooklyn
Narz. Yea-a-a, Brooklyn.
Paul. Where "Dotto" is seen over WCBS-TV, and Jack, you'll be talking to
Mrs. Georgia B. Phillips.
Narz. Thank you very much, Ralph. Hello there, Mrs. Phillips.
Mrs. Phlllips. Hello, Mr. Narz.
Narz. Can you hear me all right?
Mrs. Phillips. Yes, I can. I'm looking right at you.
Narz. Well, good, and good luck to you, Mrs. Phillips. And in just a moment
I'll be asking you the big question — asking you to identify this home dotto
picture. And if you can, listen to what we will send to you :
Announcer. First, for the woman of the family, a magnificent 1958 Edsel
Bermuda. (Fanfare.) The newest idea in station wagons, the Bermuda has
room to spare for every family need. Almost 9 feet of load space, with tail
gate down. It has Edsel's famous teletouch drive, that puts the shift button
in the middle of the steering wheel where they belong. And you'll have Edsel's
big safe self-adjusting brakes that adjust themselves automatically in the course
of day-to-day driving. And your new Edsel Bermuda is packed with a power
that station wagons need. A big 303-horsepower engine — then, for the man of
the family, a luxurious 1958 Edsel Citation convertible. It has all the same
outstanding features on the mighty 345-horsepower engine, matched interior
fibers, and new comfort-shaped seats. A car for him, a car for her — the car of a
lifetime — then for the youngster of the family, from Idaho Department Store,
Boise, a real electric model sports car that drives up to 5 miles ]>er hour — yes,
another fabulous home "Dotto" prize — a cavalcade of cars from Colgate Palm-
olive. (Fanfare.) OK, Mrs. Phillips, this wonderful prize is yours if you can
answer this question, and here it comes, Mrs. George B. Phillips in Brooklyn,
N.Y., can you tell me who this is.
Mrs. Phillips. Ah, you know, I missed two of the clues.
Narz. Yes, I do — but I'm not — I beg your pardon?
Mrs. Phillips. I missed two of the clues, and if you had called me last week
I would have won that beautiful kitchen.
Narz. Yeah, but this is this week, Mrs. Phillips, and there's another picture.
Do you have any idea who it is?
294 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mrs. Phillips. I'm going to take the wildest stab in the world. I don't know.
Was he a writer ?
Narz. I beg your pardon?
Mrs. Phillips. Was he a writer?
Narz. I'm sorry, I can't answer that. I can't tell you anything.
Mrs. Phillips. Well, I'm gonna take a wild guess and say Shakespeare.
Nabz. Well, I'm gonna make a wild answer and say "No", Mrs. Phillips, it
is not Shakespeare. Sorry. However, because your card was drawn, Mrs.
Phillips, we're going to send along to you a full year's supply of all the Colgate
products seen here on "Dotto." OK?
Mrs. Phillips. All right.
Narz. Thanks very much for entering our contest. Bye, bye.
Mrs. Phillips. Call me again sometime.
Narz. Well, let's hope so.
Mrs. Phillips. When I have the answer.
Narz. OK, when you know the answer. All right, you let us know when you
know the answer. OK, Mrs. Phillips, thank you and goodbye. Bye, bye.
AVell, that means tomorrow we'll make another telephone call and later today
another word clue to help you identify this picture. Now, Mrs. Phillips proved
how important the clues are, so write 'em down, won't you? And if you'd like to
enter the home dotto game, here's all you have to do.
Announcer. Just send us a post card. You may send as many post cards as
you like. Write your name, address, and phone number on the back and send
to "Dotto", Box 503, New York 46, N.Y. And stand by for today's word clue.
We'll have it for you just a little later. Incidentally, Peter Lawford, Phyllis
Kirk, and Asta have an exciting adventure in store for you this Friday on
"The Thin Man". Be sure and watch, won't you? And now we continue with
"Dotto", brought to you by Florient Air Deodorant — kills bad room odors fast.
Bess Myerson. Hi, I'm Bess Myerson. And I want to show you what to
me is the fastest, surest, easiest way to cure bad household odors. It's wonder-
ful Colgate Florient, the new instant actionaire deodorant that quickly kills
strongest cooking odors, like fish and cauliflower, or the smell of stale tobacco
smoke. With Florient here's all you do — just one quick spray kills bad odors
fast, makes air smell flower fresh. Florient is grand for every room in the
house — ^kitchen, living room, sick room, even baby's room. And be sure to keep
an extra Florient in your medicine cabinet. And now Florient comes in four
fragrances — the popular floral, new taugy spice, refreshing mint, and zesty
pine. No other air deodorant — only Florient — gives you this choice. Get two
or more — you'll love all four. No wick, no wait, no waste.
Narz. Thank you, Bess. Marie, ready to go onward and upward?
Winn. Sure thing, Jack.
Narz. Let's try, shall we? Ralph, would you introduce our next player,
please.
Paul. Jack Narz, Florient Air Deodrant welcomes Mr. Michael Hayden of
Old Greenwich, Conn.
Narz. Hi, Mike. [Applause.] Now let's see, Mike, we'll find out about you.
You're a single fellow, huh ?
Mike. Yes, sir, and hope to remain so.
Narz. Oh well, that kills the next remark I was going to make. And you
have two ambitions — to live long and make lots of money. That right?
Mike. Yes, sir.
Narz. Well, we'll find out in just a few minutes if you can make lots of money.
You're a pilot by trade, is that true?
Mike. Right — with Pan American.
Narz. With Pan Am — where do you fly, between here and where?
Mike. Well, we go as far as Teheran, the pilots in the Atlantic division.
There's three divisions of Pan American.
Narz. Well, let's see how you do on this division of CBS, which is studio 62
on 47th Street. May I present each of you with some Florient Air Deodorant,
which comes in four fragrances, spice, mint, pine and floral. There you are—
and good luck to both of you. And now would you step back, please, to the
dotto boards and we'll get along.
And let's reveal the new dotto picture, worth $1,000. These are identical
pictures, however you cannot see each other's. And Mike, the sooner you
identify the picture the moi*e money you will make. Want to try the dotto
button there on the desk in front of you? [Buzzer.] OK, fine. Now the first
category, songs about bands. Now you have a choice of a 5- or 8- or 10-dot
BSrVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 295
question. If you fail to answer, the dots you ask for will be connected in your
opponent's picture. Did you want to ask a question, MikeV
Mike. Yeah, there's nothing up there yet.
Nakz. That's right. That's why we ask you the questions, and then if you
answer the questions correctly then we'll put something up there. But if you
don't answer the questions we're going to put nothing up there. And Mike, oiu*
first category is songs about bands.
Mike. I'll take 8 points.
Narz. Eight. In this band song there's a flute player named Hennessey
Kiunessey, and the music is something grand. Can you name that band?
Mike. That's McNamara's band.
Narz. That's right. Now we'll put something up there, eight connected dots.
[Applause-music-dots bemg connected.] Very confusing, uh? Eight dots are
connected, 42 are unconnected. Mike, the picture is worth $840. Marie, the
category, "Songs about Bands."
Winn. Mike took eight, didn't he?
Narz. He did.
Winn. Well, I'm gonna try 10.
Narz. All rightee. According tO' this song, this is the bestest band what am,
honey lamb. Name that bjuid.
Winn. "Alexander's Ragtime Band."
Narz. Sure it is. And here are 10 connected dots for you, Marie. OK, 10 dots
connected in your picture, 40 unconnected, it's worth $800. And Mike, our next
category, "Russia, Now and Yesterday" ; 5, 8 or 10?
Mike. Ten p<nnts.
Narz. Name the Russia cultist murdered in 1916, who was known as the
Mad Monk.
Mike. Rasputin.
Narz. That's right. And here's 10 more dots for you. [Music-dots being
connected.] I'm as confuse<l as you are, believe me. OK. I think you have
18 dots connected, 32 unconnected. The picture is worth $640. Marie, Russia,
now and yesterday.
(Buzzer, by Mike.)
Narz. You think you know who it is, Mike?
Mike. I'll give it a try.
Narz. Well, I'll tell you what. We're gonna give you a good fair chance at it
and also you, Marie. We're gonna give you another 60 seconds to study that pic-
ture and study it hard. I'm as confused as anybody here in the studio right now.
In the meantime, we'll be back to get your answer in just a moment, Mike.
Right now, I think it looks like my old Buddy, Ralph Paul, has a little something
going for him over there on his "Dotto" board. It looks like maybe it's a kind
of a problem. What's going on over there, Ralph?
Paul. Well, Jack, it is a problem — the problem of dishwashing and what it
can do to your pretty hands. Now no wonder that this young lady looks like
this when she sees her rough, red hands. Ah, but you change to new velvety
Vel. What a difference. You see, Vel is specially made for dishwashing. Now,
unlike laundry detergents, Vel contains no irritating alkali or harsh chemicals.
You get sparkling dishes, glasses, pots and pans, but no detergent burn to hands.
You can prove it to yourself. You just wet your hands and you pour laundry
detergent in one palm and new Vel in the other. Now you can feel the heat
generated by the laundry detergent but you feel no heat with Vel. So, for
sparkling dishes, glasses, i>ots and pans but no detergent burn to hands, change
to Vel today. And change from that unhappy picture to this. Yes, you'll
bless new velvety Vel !
Narz. Ah, thanli you. Sparkle. And boy, this is one time when both contestants
really used that 60 seconds you gave them, Ralph. They've both been peering
and squinting and taking all different \iews on this thing. OK. Mike, you have
32 unconnected dots in your picture and that means that $640 is riding on this
answer. Now if you are mistaken we will have to eliminate you from the
game. OK, Marie will not be able to see your answer if you will step right over
there to the Dottograph and write it out, please. [Music] And his is right.
Yes, that's who it is. [Applause.] I'm as much in the dark as anybody — had
to get this — wait a minute. I beg your pardon. Then what do we do now?
We'll make a ruling about it? He's right actually in the identification. He
didn't put all — he has a partial answer down — you'll make a iiiling later? In
the meantime we'll go over to Marie. All right Marie, he has identified his
picture. He's on the right track. He has made almost a complete identification.
296 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
We'll have to make a ruling on his answer a little later. But in the meantime i
we're gonna give you an opportunity to stay in onr game by comiag up with
your identification if you can. Now you have had 60 seconds to look at them.
You want another 10 to study it?
Winn. Yes.
Nakz. All righty. Good luck then, Marie. [Music]
Winn. It looks to me by that thing down there, something like a duck. So is
it Donald Duck? or little ducks?
Narz. Well, I can accept one answer from you, Marie. Could you give me
just one?
Winn. Donald Duck's little nephews?
Narz. Well, you are right. Now that is right— it is Donald Duck's nephews.
And I think we have — well I know we have a tie game now, so that solves our
problem. Actually I think Mike chose the hard way to write his answer. If he
had written Donald Duck's nephews we would have accepted that answer, but
you wanted to give us the names. And I believe it's Huey, Dewey, and Louie.
Is that right, Louie's the third one? OK, but in the meantime I think he was
right in identifying the nephews, and I know Marie was, so we have a tie game.
We'll have them both back here tomorrow. OK, we'll play "Double Dotto" then.
Thanks, Mike, thanks, Marie, we'll see you tomorrow. Tomorrow they'll
be playing for $40 for each unconnected dot and the next picture you folks see
will be worth $2,000. Right now we want you folks at home to see our word
clue on the Home Dotto picture, so here it is, and write it down. [Music] Friend
of royalty. Get your cards in as soon as possible. Our address for the Home
Dotto game, Dotto, Box 503, New York 46, N.Y. That's about it for today. To-
morrow we'll add 10 more dots in the Home Dotto picture and make another phone
call. We'll see you then. Goodbye, everybody. See you tomorrow.
Announcer. New, new, new ! New stain-removing Ajax, wipes off stains faster
than any other type of cleanser. If you haven't tried Ajax in the last 30 days
you just don't know how good a cleanser can be.
Voice. I know. Last week I tried it on the dirtiest sink. New stain-removing
Ajax is self-starting. Starts to work, starts to clean even before you start to
rub. The moment you shake it on, new Ajax starts to work.
Announcer. The new Ajax high-speed cleaning formula is your answer. As
this diagram shows, new Ajax gets right down to the surface, cuts the grease,
bleaches the porcelain, wipes off stains faster than any other type of cleaner. If
you haven't tried Ajax in the last 30 days you just don't know how good a cleanser
can be. So, don't wait — prove it for yourself — get new self-starting Ajax today.
See the drama of a man who thought that his family loved him only for what
he could provide, on "The Millionaire" tomorrow night. We'll see you tomorrow
on "Dotto."
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Hilgemeier, you have just seen the showing of
the "Dotto" program on May 20, 1958. It was on that day that you
tore the page from Miss Marie Winn's notebook, is that correct?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes, sir ; it is.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And you tore that page from her notebook prior to
the commencement of this show ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. That was during the show itself, while she was on
camera.
Mr. LisHMAN. While she was on camera you went into her dressing
room ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. It was in the dressing room where we were all in.
I didn't go to her dressing room. We were all in the same one.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You tore this from her notebook ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Ycs, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Is it a fact that all the answers she gave there are
contained in this list that you took from her notebook ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes, sir ; they are.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Will you read the answers from the original docu-
ment that you tore at that time ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Do you want to read the whole page or the ones
she ffave ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 297
Mr. LiSHMAisr. The answers slie gave.
Mr. HiLGEMEiEK. Barry Fitzgerald, and the clue was Abbey Play-
ers. Picture, Donald Duck. The clue three nephews. The questions
asked, "Alexander's Ragtime Band," "Band Played on," and "Mc-
Namara's Band." They are all listed here.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Wliat did you do with this torn page from Miss
Winn's notebook after the show ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. After the show was over, sir, as I have stated. Miss
Kimball and I left the studio, and had photostatic copies of this note-
book page made.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Please identify Miss Kimball. Was she the Indian
princess on this performance ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes, Yeffe Kimball, and I left the studio itself and
had photostatic copies of this notebook page made m Manliattan. At
that time we went
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you have a discussion with Miss Kimball to the
effect that the show was fixed ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes, I did, sir. She at that time told me if any
litigation were to arise out of the situation that she would be willing
to give me 50 percent of w^hatever moneys she got.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Will you continue, then?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. She felt that she might have some kind of suit
against them. She said she wanted to sue then;i. She called her at-
torney, a Mr. Arthur Seiff.
Mr. LisiiMAN. In New York ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. In New York City, West 57th Street. He was not
in the office, but we went to the ofBce anyway. This was about 2
o'clock in the afternoon. ]\Ir. Seiff was not due until about 4. So we
left the photostatic copy of the notebook page and a message to JSIr.
Seiff, and we left his office. She took me at that time to have a drink.
I guess she needed it, or I did. She told me that she needed this and
she needed me, so we went back to Mr. Seiff's office at 4 o'clock. He
was not there. We waited until 5 and he finally came in at 5. Mr.
Seiff told us that he didn't have time for this kind of a situation and
referred us to a gentleman by the name of Sidney Hoff'man, whose
offices are also in Manhattan, and who is an attorney. He told Miss
Kimball on the telephone that he would like to see us, also myself. So
after the discussion with Mr. Hoffman whereby he had told us that
possible litigation could come out of this, we left Mr. Seiff's office, and
I went to the producer's office in the Woodstock Hotel on West 44th
Street. This was about 6 o'clock.
Mr. LiSHMAN. "\Ylio were the producers ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. The producers of the show are the Frank Cooper
Associates. They package the show. But Mr. Ed Jurist is the pro-
ducer of the "Dotto'' show itself. We went to the "Dotto" offices. He
wasn't there so we waited to see him. In the meantime we spoke with
a Mr. Green, I believe his name was. He was appalled by it all and
had no comment to make. The thing he wanted to see was the origi-
nal copy of this page that I had taken from this notebook. He wanted
that very badly. We did show him the photostatic copy of it, how-
ever. But he wanted to see the original.
Mr. Jurist finally came in about 6 :15. The first thing that he did
was to separate Miss Kimball and me. He took Miss Kimball to his
office while I waited outside and had a conversation with her. After
298 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Miss Kimball came out, I went into the office and had a discussion
with hun, and he told me that he was amazed at this thing and asked
me what would I like to have.
Mr. LiSHMAN. He asked you what you would like to have ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAisr. Continue.
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. He told me that he didn't want me to go on the
*'Dotto" show. At that time I was not interested in going on it at all.
He asked me — he told me, rather, that I was not psychologically in a
frame of mind to go on the show at that time, and if I would like to
'wait a week, I could go on later on with a guarantee.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did he mention what the guarantee was ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. No, he didn't. He didn't mention the guarantee.
Any moneys or anything. He did mention that there would be a
rather substantial guarantee. Or on the other hand, if I would like
to wait until the night time version of "Dotto,'' which was being
aired on July 1st on NBC, that the rewards would even be greater, and
even a more substantial arrangement could be made with me. Again
I told him I was not interested in anything that they could offer me.
He also at a later time offered me moneys and a job with the network.
He said I could have this job with the network providing that I would
sign a release that I would not sue the "Dotto'' producers for this
thing.
Anyway, we left the offices, and 2 days later, on May 22, we had an
appointment with Mr. Hoffman in his offices, and he told me- — we dis-
cussed the situation with him — at that time I left the original page of
this notebook with Mr. Hoffman. He told me that he would be in
touch with us. He required that we sign a certain legol document
that any litigation that would come of this, that he would receive a
third of any moneys. So in the meantime, this was in May, I did
not see IMr. Hoffman until sometime in June, the latter part of June.
At such time I had learned that Miss Kimball had settled the case.
Mr. Hoffman told me that only through his offices could this case be
settled. During the month of June I spoke with him. He said that
he would offer me $500 for a release and I told him that I was not
interested in it. I told liim he could give me 6 cents as far as I was
concerned. At a later time he offered me $750, and it finally went to
a thousand. I still told him I was not interested in the money or any-
thing he would do. Finally Miss Kimball, I learned, settled the case
in the amount of $4,000, and the notebook page was returned to the
producers, and I went down there when I learned this to get the note-
book page back, since I felt it was my property. He told me I could
not have it, that it had been turned over to the producers. I am sort of
telling the stoiy.
Mr. LisHMAN. Yes; tell the story.
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. As I bcst remember it. In August — during this
time I was having a great deal of trouble getting work. I was slated
for two more quiz shows, "Treasure Hunt" and another show, "Bid
and Buy."
Mr. LisHMAN. Do I understand that you were paid $1,500?
Mr. HiixiEMEiER. I was given $1,500, not until August.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Wlio gave that to you ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. The attorney for Frank Cooper Associates. His
name is Walter Schier.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 299
Mr. LiSHMAN". TVTio told you you would get this $1,500 ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Sy Fisher, who is the producer for Frank Cooper
Associates.
Mr. LiSHMAN. He is a producer for Frank Cooper Associates ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. He is an associate of Frank Cooper Associates.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did he tell you that you would get $1,500 and that is
all you would ever get?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes ; he did.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Why did you accept the $1,500?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. The morning that I went to Mr. Fisher's office, I
told Mr. Jurist the day before I was going to the newspapers with the
story. He told me not to do anything until I spoke with Mr. Fisher
the following morning. This was about the 17th of August. I went
to the office and he offered me this money. I turned it down and I
left the office. As I was leaving he picked up the telephone and
said he was going to call the police on me and accuse me of extor-
tion and being a blackmailer. As I was walking out the door he said,
■'Go home and cool off and call me back." I left the office and called
Jack O'Grady from the Xew York Post with whom I had spoken the
day before and told Jack what had happened, and he suggested for
proof of this thing actually happening I should accept the $1,500 and
sign the release and make it part of the affidavit which I have here.
Mr. LiSHMAN. And you did that i
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I met Jack O'Grady that afternoon about the 17th
of August.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was he with you when you prepared this affidavit
which is now in evidence ?
Mr. HiLGE^iEiER. Yes, sir. I met him at 60(S Fifth Avenue.
Mr. LiSHMAN. But you swear that all the statements of fact con-
tained in there are your own ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LiSHiMAN. '\'\nien you were given the $1,500 ostensibly to keep
quiet, what did you do with the $1,500 ?
Mr. HiLGE]\rEiER. I turned it over to Jack O'Grady at the time, and
he gave it back to me. Since the fact that I had not been working
since May I felt that I needed the money and I used it for personal
needs, rent, et cetera.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You were paid the $1,500 to keep quiet. Yet you
immediately went with the money to a reporter and spilled the whole
story to him. AYliy did you do that ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I felt, sir, that I was not part of anything these
people were doing. I didn't really feel that the money was mine, and
I felt it sliould be made public. So I called the newspapers and I told
them about it.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you return the money at any time?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. No ; I did not.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you tell us that Miss Kimball had been paid
$4,000 by Cooper Associates ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Ycs, sir.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you know she had been paid that amount ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes. Miss Kimball told me at oue time that she
had a $6,000 note due on June 1 on her house and she told me she had
part of it but needed the remainder of the money and consequently
300 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
she sought the figure of $4,000 which was the bahmce on the note she
owed.
Mr. LiSHMAN. How did. you know that Miss Kimball had been paid
$4,000 by Cooper Associates ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I Went down to Mr. Hoffman's office at one time.
Mr. LiSHMAN. He represented both you and Miss Kimball ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. He represented Miss Kimball. I dropped his
counseling.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Continue and state how you know this.
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I was represented by counsel, Mr. Irving Tannen-
baum of New York City. Mr. Tannenbaum was trying to get Yetfe
Kimball on my side. He had been writing letters to her, having me to
go to lier apartment to get her to try to drop by the office. However,
I dicbi't do it.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were you ever contacted by any representative of
CBS with respect to the occurrences you have testified ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. No, sir, I was not.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were you ever contacted by any representatives of
the sponsor, Colgate Palmolive Peat?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. No, sir, I was not. I went to Colgate at one
point with the affidavit and told them about it also.
JSIr. LiSHMAN. What happened 'I
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I Originally spoke to a gentleman, I don't remem-
ber his name, and he told me that they would take care of this thing.
He told me in plain English that they would take care of me. I left
the office and I was at Colgate a short time thereafter where I met
the vice president, and about 14 other gentlemen at a conference.
They wanted the whole story. I gave it to them.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Do you remember the name of the man at Colgate
that you spoke to ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. No, I dou't remember his name. It has been some
time.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What did you mean by saying that someone at
Colgate told you that they would take care of you ? ^^^lat did you
understand that to mean ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I don't know, sir. Apparently from his tone of
things, possibly an amount of money.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did there come a time when your affidavit of July
25,1958, was sent by you to the Federal Communications Commission ?
Mr. HiixiEMEiER. I am sorry. Repeat the question.
(Question read by the reporter.)
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Ycs, it was.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you write a letter to the Federal Communica-
tions Commission concerning the occurrences which you have testified
to this morning ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes, I did, sir. Jack O'Grady and I did this.
I later on called the FCC in Washington. The only thing these
gentlemen told me was that they had received my complaint and they
would look into it. That is the last thing I heard of it.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were you ever intervieAved by any representative of
the Federal Communications Commission with respect to this matter?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. No, I was not. I wanted to do this. I wanted to
find out what was happening, I got a cold slioulder from them.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 301
Mr. LiSHMAN". Is it a fact that immediately after you had broken
this story to the newspapers that this show was canceled?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes, it was.
Mr. LisiiMAX. Immediately after your meeting with Colgate of-
ficials it was canceled ^
Mr. HiLCxEMEiER. Yes, it was. The only person that ever contacted
me, I should say, was Gene Gleason, who is a runner for Harriet Van
Horn from the Telegram. He sought me out one evening and point-
blank came over to me and handed me an affidavit whereby a number
of quiz show contestants were involved in fix charges. He handed me
this affidavit and told me to read it. When I read it, he said, "How
come they didn't get you in time"? I don't remember some of the
people involved. Jack Paar was involved and mentioned in this
affidavit, and a number of other people. I read this. He would not
give me a copy of it, however.
Mr. LiSHiMAN. ]\Ir. Gleason has denied to our staff the existence of
any such documents that you referred to.
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. If you would like to subpena my wife^ sir — I am
here, of course — but the affidavit did exist and he showed it to me.
Mr. LiSHMAN. It is a fact that immediately after you had told the
Colgate people of the fact that the show was apparently fixed, it was
canceled at once ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Ycs, sir. AVithin a relatively short time, I think
it was 2 weeks.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Rogers.
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Hilgemeier, where are you from, originally ?
Mr. Hilgemeier. Indianapolis, Ind.
Mr. Rogers. You live in New York ?
Mr. Hilgemeier. Queens.
Mr. Rogers. Did you actually want to go on this show ?
Mr. Hilgemeier. No. As I stated previously, I had been on six
other shows and never saw any fraudulent practices being adminis-
tered by anyone personally. I didn't want to become a part of some-
thing that was a little fraudulent like this. I am in show business and
I felt it could hurt me if I became a part of it.
Mr. Rogers. Is it your position that the $1,500 you took was pay-
ment to you in settlement of whatever lawsuit you might have against
them ?
]Mr. Hilgemeier. That is what they claim. I took it as evidence.
I had no other proof that this thing happened. I took it on the advice
of Jack O'Grady.
Mr. Rogers. They took the position that they were settling a threat-
ened lawsuit so that you would not go to court and sue them ?
Mr. Hilgemeier. That is true, sir. I signed three documents for
the moneys that I would not sue, a general release. Also that I was
not represented by an attorney. Also that after conducting a thor-
ough investigation of the whole situation that I was satisfied that
there was really no fix.
Mr. Rogers. Did you threaten a lawsuit ?
Mr. Hilgemeier. No, sir, I didn't. ■ ' . ".' ;' .
Mr. Rogers. Did you have a lawsuit in mind ? . •" " '
52294— 60— pt. 1 20
302 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. No. I didn't know what I had, sir. I never
really came out with any kind of suit ag^ainst them at all.
Mr. Rogers. You considered this hush money ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. No, sir, I did not at all.
Mr. Rogers. Wliat did you consider it ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. If I Considered it hush money, why would I have
a reporter fi'om a newspaper sitting out in the corridor with me?
Mr. Rogers. That is the next question.
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. You are ahead of me.
Mr. Rogers. "Wliat did you consider it ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I took the money, as I stated, as evidence that the
thing actually happened, and I turned it over to the newspaper. I
had no proof that this thing happened unless I had the money. I
was having a great deal of trouble at the time financially, and for me
to walk in with no money and walk out with $1,500, I just pulled
it out of the air.
Mr. Rogers. Did you pay a lawyer's fee ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. No.
Mr. Rogers. Did he ever c-j iplain ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Sidney loffman? No. He told me I could only
settle through his office. Only through his office could this thing
be settled, and nobody else.
Mr. Rogers. But you settled it without his help.
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. YcS.
Mr. Rogers. Did you consider this activity that you uncovered by
these notebook papers a fraud ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. Or fair entertainment ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I cousidercd it a fraud.
Mr. Rogers. You were not a subscriber to the policy that anything
you can get away with is all right ?
Mr. PIiLGEMEiER. I Certainly do not.
Mr. Rogers. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Devine.
Mr. Devine. Just a couple of questions.
Mr. Hilgemeier, other than these other quiz programs that you had
appeared on, how long prior to this particular appearance had you
been employed ?
Mr. Hilgemeier. I don't know quite what you mean. You mean
in sliow business ?
Mr. Devine. You say you are a comedian.
Mr. Hilgemeier. I have been working quite a long time in club
dates.
Mr. Devene. Have you been employed since this occurrence ?
Mr. Hilgemeier. I cannot get a job in New York. They won't give
me an audition. They won't look at me. I have been boclily thrown
out of several night clubs.
Mr. Devine. Because of your revelations in this particular thing?
Mr. Hilgemeier. Yes. I was picked up and thrown out the front
door. This is a matter of police record in Mount Vernon, N.Y.
Mr. Devine. As a result of your revelations you are personna non
jrrata in New York ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 303
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes. A number of things that people have said
about me on television have been veiy damaging to me and as a result
I can't get a job in New York.
Mr. Devine. Thank you.
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I sued Jack Paar, by the way, for $750,000.
Mr. De\t;ne. I understand you say you have filed suit.
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. I liave filed suit 3 weeks ago in the supreme court
'of New York County.
Mr. Devine. For $750,000? - i •■■■';■-■
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes, sir ; for libel. ' -r. '/ . ■'
Mr. De\^ne. For libel ?
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Yes.
Mr. Devine. Thank you.
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Actually Jack Paar didn't accuse me of black-
mail. Billy Pearson, the jockey, did, but Jack Paar endorsed liis
comments by having them brought out during the show. Jack said
to him : ''Billy, tell me what you told me before this show." So he
brought it out, and that was it.
Mr. Devixe. That is all, Mr. Chairmanj,>i ■, ■ . ;
The Chairman. That will conclude youi' t testimony.
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Tliauk you, sir.
The Chairman. With the thanks of the committee, you may be ex-
cused.
Mr. HiLGEMEiER. Tliauk you very much.
The Chairman. Now I might say in view of the testimony given
by this witness about Miss Marie A. Winn, the committee has tried
diligently to obtain her, but she is in Europe and, therefore, out of
the reach of the jurisdiction of the committee. I am authorized to
make the statement that she did appear before the grand jury in New
York. We do have a copy of her sworn statement. She corroborates
this witness by stating that she, too, received the assistance, as this
witness has testified of his experience. That is true, is it not, Mr.
Lisliman ?
Mr. Lishman. Yes. She testified she was given the questions and
answers.
The Chairman. She testified she was given the questions and an-
swers as has been described by this witness, and viewed here on the
kinescope. Is Mr. Jurist in the room ? , , , .
(No response.) ■ ' // n.
The Chairman. The committee will recess until 1 :30, at which time
the committee is asked to meet in the committee room to consider the
request of Mr. Jurist, who is producer of the "Dotto" show that he be
heard in executive session imder the provisions of the rule of the House
of Representatives to which I referred earlier. It is hoped, and I am
sure we will, be back here for a continuation of the public hearing by 2
o'clock or shortly after. The committee will adjourn.
(Thereupon at 12:35 p.m., the committee recessed to reconvene at
1 :30 p.m., in executive session.)
The special subcommittee met in executive session at 1 :30 p.m., in
room 1334, New House Office Building, Hon. Oren Harris (chairman)
presiding, a quorum being present.
(The testimony taken at this executive session was released by the
subcommittee by vote taken November 3, 1959.)
304 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Dowel is the witness.
Mr. Dowd, will you be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give to this committee
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
TESTIMONY OF MARTIN DOWD
Mr. Dowd. I do.
The Chairman. Will you have a seat? Will you state your full
name ?
Mr. Down. Martin Dowd.
The Chairman. How do you spell it ?
Mr. Dowd. D-o-w-d, sir. Martin, M-a-r-t-i-n.
The Chairman. What is your address ? i
Mr. Dow^D. 974 Anchor Court, New Milf ord, N.J.
The Chairman. What is your business or profession, Mr. Dowd?
Mr. Down. I am a sales correspondent for a folding paper box
company, sir.
The Chairman. Did you have any association with what is com-
monly referred to as the quiz show, "Tic-Tac-Dough'- ?
Mr. Down. Yes, I did, Mr. Harris.
The Chairman. Mr. Dowd, the rules of the House of Representa-
tives provide under rule XI, 26, of the Rules of the House of Repre-
sentatives, paragraph (M) :
If the committee determines that evidence or testimony at an investigative-
hearing may tend to defame, degrade, or incriminate any person, it shall (1)
receive such evidence or testimony in executive session; (2) afford such person
an opportunity voluntarily to appear as a witness, and (3) receive and dispose
of requests from such person to subpena additional witnesses.
With that information, you have requested that your testimony^
in comiection with your part on the show, "Tic-Tac-Dough," be taken
in executive session ?
Mr. Down. Yes, Mr. Harris.
The Chairman. Could you give the committee the reasons why, Mr^
Dowd ?
Mr. DowD. There are several.
One, sir, I felt certain I would lose my means of support. I am
married with two children. That is one reason.
Another reason is that there has been a great deal of tension in.
my family just recently. On Saturday, as I told Mr. Goodwin, my
little girl was hit by a car. She went to the hospital and she is just
out, but her mother, the child's mother, my wife and my wife's mother
are very upset about this. They are not well. I feel that this coming
on top of that would be a great blow.
Mr. Lishman. May I also ask a question at this point?
Is it not also a fact, Mr. Dowd, that at first wiien you were called
before the grand jury, you refused to testify and considerable pres-
sure had to be brought to bear and eventually you voluntarily came^
in and recanted your earlier position ?
Mr. DowD. Yes.
Mr. Lishman. Your testimony might in some quarters be construed
as tending to incriminate and degrade yourself?
Mr. Do^vD. Yes.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 305
Mr. LiSHMAN". In the light of your two separate appearances be-
fore the New York County Grand Jury ?
Mr. Down. Yes, sir.
I might also point out — I don't know how relevant this is — I did
go to Mr. Felsher and ask him to tell the truth after I told the truth.
The Chairihan. Who is Mr. Felsher?
Mr. DowD. He is the producer of "Tic-Tac-Dough."
I went to him voluntarily. I was not asked to go to him. I felt
I had an obligation to ask him to tell the truth to the grand jury.
I think eventually he did do it.
The Chairman. Do you contend, Mr. Dowd, that in addition to
yourself that your testimony might tend to in some way degrade your
own family?
Mr. Down. I do. I think it would cause them great grief and pub-
lic deprecation.
Mr. Moss. The only point I would make, Mr. Chairman, is that
there is no assurance that this committee can give to Mr. Dowd that
the testimony which is received will not be made public at some future
date.
The Chairman. That is true.
I certainly wanted to make it very clear to you, Mr. Dowd, that the
rules also provide, paragraph (o) , that no evidence or testimony taken
in executive session may be released or used in public session without
the consent of the committee.
Consequently, you should be advised that should the committee sub-
sequent to your appearance decide to make the testimony which you
give public, that would be a decision of the committee, or if the com-
mittee decided it was necessary to use it publicly, that would be the
decision of the committee.
Mr. DowD. I understand that, sir.
The Chairman. With this information and your statement, under
the circumstances we deem it proper to proceed with your testimony
in executive session.
Do you want him to make a statement, Mr. Lishman, or do you wish
to ask some questions ?
Mr. Lishman. I can ask a few questions and then he can tell in his
own words his participation as a contestant in "Tic-Tac-Dough" and
the manner in which he received information in advance of his
appearance.
The Chairman. First, you were a contestant ?
Mr. Dowd. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. On the show "Tic-Tac-Dough"? ■
Mr. Dowd. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Will you proceed, Mr. Lishman ?
Mr. Lishman. On how many performances of "Tic-Tac-Dough"
did you appear ?
Mr. Dowd. On the daytime show, I believe it was four. It was four
on the daytime show, yes.
Mr. Lishman. Did you appear on the nighttime show?
Mr. Dowd. I appeared on the nighttime show, I believe, eight or
nine times.
Mr. Lishman. At about what period did you appear on the day-
time show?
306 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. DowD. The daytime show was November of 1957,
Mr, LiSHMAN. And the nighttime show ?
Mr, DowD, The spring of 1958. Probably February, March, April.
Mr. LisuMAN. Prior to going on the show, were you a friend of the
producer, Howard Felsher ?
Mr. Down. Yes.
Mr. LisHMAN. Howard Felsher was your friend ?
Mr. Down. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Is that how you came to get on the show ?
Mr. DowD. Yes, that is how I came on the show. I took two tests.
I took one test and I did not do too well on it. He advised me to
study. I did study. The second test I took on the Friday prior to
Thanksgiving 1957. I took the test. He came back and he said to
me — do you want me to continue ?
Mr. LisHMAN. Yes, go ahead.
Mr. DowD. He said to me, "Well, the test is OK. It is good. We
have a fellow on here who is winning too much money, and you are
going to beat him."
I said, "I don't think I should."
He said, "Of course you should."
I had not told Mr. Felsher, but I was in very serious need of money
at the time. I agreed that I would do it. Mr. Felsher then gave me
every question and every answer for the Monday show.
Mr. LiSHMxVN. Was this daytime or evening?
Mr. Down. Daytime. He gave me every question and answer.
Mr. LisHMAX. In advance of your appearance ?
Mr. Down. In advance of my appearance.
Generally I believe on Friday and Saturday prior to Thanksgiving
1957, lie gave me all of the questions and answers. Every day at
night he would give me new questions and new answers. He coached
me on when I was
Mr. LiSHMAN. Would those new questions and new answers then
be used on the next program ?
Mr. Down. Yes. They may or may not. Maybe we would not
get to them. But he always covered the eventuality.
Mr. LiSHMAisr. Go ahead.
Mr. Down. He also told me when to win.
For example, he said, if your opponent, who had won about $7,000,
fails and you have only won a thousand from him, don't win. Tie.
He instructed me that only when we got to a figure of about $3,500
was I to win.
I did as he told me. In fact the opponent did not lose until he
lost about $5,000— no; about $4,500. Then I won. The opponent
missed a question and I won.
At that time I had I guess about $4,500. I played another con-
testant and another contestant and I won again and then Mr. Felsher
told me when to lose. He told me first I must tie my opponent, even
missing a question, and I did miss questions to tie my opponent. I
must tie my opponent until I had lost about $3,000, roughly. I
think maybe it is closer to $2,800. That was subtracted from my
winninfi-s, and I won a net amount of $3,800.
Mr. Ltshmax. That is on the daytime show ?
Mr. DowD. That is right, sir.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 307
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did the same procedure occur on the nighttime show
performances on which you appeared ?
Mr. DowD. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Every one of them ?
Mr. Down. Every question and every answer.
Mr. LiSHMAN. How much did vou wnn from the nighttime show ?
Mr. Down. I received from NBC $19,700.
Mr. LiSHMAN. From NBC?
Mr. DowD. Yes. A chex?k. When I went on the nighttime show, I
didn't want to go on. The opponent was Capt. Michael O'Rourke.
He was wanning a great deal of money. He was winning about $110,-
000. It must have been more. He was wanning about $131,000, that
is right.
I went on and Felsher told me that I had to beat O'Rourke. It was
left open. I think he was thinking that possibly he would have
O'Kourke continue to win more money and more money because he
was such a good witness from the standpoint of audience appeal.
Mr, LiSHMAN. A good contestant ?
Mr. Down. A good contestant. An appealing contestant.
However, I had tied Mr. O'Rourke for about 11 games, which
would represent roughly about $80,000. Tw^enty-seven thousand dol-
lars is closer to it. Then Mr. Felslier arranged to beat O'Rourke.
The way he did that is, Mr. Felsher told me what categories to go
into, what questions to pick, so that eventually the baseball category
would come up as Mr. O'Rourke's question. Mr. Felsher knew that
Mr. O'Rourke was not proficient in baseball and Mr. O'Rourke did
fail on that question. Then O'Rourke lost. He got $108,000 and I
was the so-called champion.
I proceeded for several weeks, always receiving the questions and
answers prior to the progTam. In fact, Mr. Felsher used to meet me
the day of the program and go over them, normallv in his car, to make
certain that I knew eveiy question and every answer.
Eventually he said, "Well, you have gained or you have accumu-
lated $47,000, but we only w^ant you to take home 10 or 12. I said that
was not enough. We argued about that. Finally, I lost at $19,000 — •
when I would have a net amount of $19,700.
Mr. Felsher said that he would lose his job if I won too much
money. That is the substance of it.
I do say this: Whenever questions would come up about winners,
Mr. Felsher would be very budget conscious. At one point he said
Mr. Armstrong, who was the contestant ui the daytime who had beat
me, Mr. Armstrong dumped — or in other words, Mr. Armstrong quit.
He knew the answers but he quit.
When I say he knew the answer but he quit, I don't think Mr.
Armstrong was advised of the answer. I think he wanted to get out
with his winnings because he could see this pattern where a con-
testant would accumulate a lot of money and then he would be tied
until he lost a great deal of it. Mr. Armstrong left with a consider-
able amount of money, six or seven thousand dollars, and Mr. Felsher
said "he put me over budget again"; the essence of that being that
they had a budget. In other words, only so much could be won every
day.
308 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
I am sure the committee is familiar with the mathematics of it.
They could build up to tremendous amounts the amount at stake and
then cut it down.
For example, if contestants could conceivably win $10,000 a week,
they could have a contestant go up to $100,000. Then, instead of pay-
ing him $100,000 if they had something tie him for $30,000 of that,
they only pay $70,000. But they would have gotten 13 weeks out of it
ancl an averaire of $5,000 a performance rather than $10,000 a per-
formance if he had left at $100,000.
Mr. LisHMAN. May I interrupt ?
Mr. Down. Yes, sir.
Mr. LisHMAN. Is it a fact that in coaching you Mr. Felsher ac-
tually gave you the 3-by-5 cards with questions and answers typed on
them so you could take them home and memorize them in advance of
the show ?
Mr. Down. He never let me take them home. They were never out
of his possession. But I used the actual cards on tihe show.
Mr. LisHMAN. They were given to you in advance ?
Mr. Down. In advance. Always in advance.
He let me copy them in his office, but he would never let me take
them out of his office,
Mr. LiSHMAN. When the grand jury investigation came along, did
anybody try to keep you quiet about this story ?
Mr. Down. Mr. Felsher called and he said that he was going to say
that he never gave anyone answers. He telephoned that.
Later on I saw him before I testified. I asked Mr. Felsher to tell
the truth. I said that I didn't think he could get away with not telling
the truth.
Mr. Felsher said there were too many people involved, contestants
would be hurt, they would lose their means of livelihood, and the en-
tire office force of Barry & Enright would lose their jobs. They would
be affected adversely.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did Mr. Felsher threaten you in any way after you
left the show ?
Mr. Down, No.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did Mr. Felsher threaten you in case you refused to
appear against Captain O'Rourke ?
Mr. Down. No. I didn't want to appear against Captain O'Rourke
because I considered him too smart, and it would be just too obvious.
He pressured me to appear against him. He did not threaten me.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What did he say when you told him you were going
back to the grand jury and tell the truth ?
Mr. Down. I did not tell him that I was going to tell the truth when
I did tell the truth.
After I testified to the grand jury to the truth, I went to Mr.
Felsher and told him that I told the truth and he should tell the truth.
What had liappened, wlien I testified, I asked the district attorney's
office if they would approve of my going to Felsher and asking him
to tell the truth. They said they could neither approve nor disap-
prove. They left it up to me.
So, voluntarily, I went to hhii and I asked him to tell the truth.
He was quite bitter about my telling the truth.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 309
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did Mr. Felshor request you to tell the grand jury
that he had not given you the questions and answers ?
Mr. DowD. Yes, he did. I don't know if he was coached or not,
but he was very careful about saying that. In other words, I said
to Mr. Felscher — I met him the day before I was to testify — let us
tell the truth. You can't get away with this.
He said we can't tell the truth. There are too many people af-
fected. He went so far as to suggest to me that I not say that I had
met him that evening. I told him that that would be ridiculous. I
was certain that the district attorney's office knew that we were
meeting.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Now, Mr. Dowd, were you ever contacted by any
representative of NBC concerning your participation in this fixed
program ?
Mr. Do^vD. No, sir ; I was not. r, ^ : •
Mr. LisHMAX. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Eogers.
Mr. KoGERS. Mr Dowd, did you say you got $19,700 from NBC ?
j\Ir. Dowd. Yes. The check is an NBC check, I believe the pro-
grams were owned by NBC so they sent the check.
j\Ir. Rogers. Did you ever have any discussion at any time during
this proceeding with any people from NBC as such, who were identi-
fied as people from the NBC group ?
Mr. Dowd. No, sir ; absolutely not.
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Felsher, is that his name?
Mr. Dowd. Yes.
Mr. Rogers Is he the same one who was discharged by NBC be-
cause he would not make an affidavit ?
Mr. Dowd. Yes, sir. ■ •
Mr. Rogers. Saying that these charges were false ?
Mr. Down. That is right, sir.
JNIr. Rogers. Where is he now ?
Mr. Dowd. I don't know, sir. I have not seen him for many
months.
Mr. Rogers. "\A^ien did you first find out that this was a fixed or
rigged show ?
J\Ir. Dowd. Wlien I went mto Mr. Felsher's office. I had taken
the test. I had every intention of being an honest contestant. I had
no idea that it was fixed.
He said, "You are going to beat this guy and I am going to give you
the answers." This was the Friday preceding Thanksgiving,
I stood by on the progi'am Monday and I was a contestant actually
on the program on Tuesday,
Mr, Rogers, You were a party to the misrepresentation from then
on?
Mr, Dowd, Yes,
Mr, Rogers. You Iniew everything that was going to happen from
then on as far as your action was concerned ?
Mr, Dowd. Yes, But they were very careful about telling one
thing. They tried to be very careful about letting anybody know.
Of course, matters that involved me I knew.
Mr. Rogers. Yes ; I understand that. . ,
310 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOV^^S
Mr. DowD. They would not tell me if they had a following fixed
candidate. I did not know that, sir.
Mr. Rogers. You did not know what they had told the other candi-
date but you knew what was going to happen to the other candidate
or contestant when you went into the show ?
Mr. Down. No ; they never said to me he is fixed or he is not fixed.
They didn't, sir.
Mr. Rogers. I understand that. I mean from what they told you,
they told you you are going to win tonight?
Mr. Down. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers. Or you are supposed to lose or you are supposed to tie?
Mr. DowD. That is right.
Mr. Rogers. You knew exactly what was going to happen in the
game?
Mr. Down. I knew what they wanted me to do exactly. I was told
exactly what to do.
Mr. Rogers. Did they t-ell you all three at any particular time, that
you would win, tie, and lose, or vice versa.
Mr. Down. They didn't happen at the same time, sir. Of course,
when they threw the curve at Mr. O'Rourke, I strongly suspected
that they would. They didn't say to me that he was going to lose
that night. But they told me exactly what boxes to use so that he
would get that category and it was well Imown that he was weak in
that category.
Mr. Rogers. Did you consider it a sort of fraudulent or dishonest
operation ?
Mr. Down. I did. I thought it was a pretty rotten thing to do.
Mr. Rogers. Did it worry you quite a bit ?
. Mr. Down. Yes. I thought I was pretty crmnmy to do something
like that.
Mr. Rogers. Did you feel a lot cleaner after you went to the grand
jury and told the truth?
Mr. Down. I did.
Mr. Rogers. You felt like you had a bath, did you not ?
Mr. Down. Yes, sir. I felt a lot better about it. I did.
Mr. Rogers. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Moss.
Mr. Moss. Mr. Dowd, was this the type of program which could
have been effectively fixed over a period of approximately 9 weeks
unless both contestants were participating in the fix ?
Mr. Down. I think so, given a veiy bright opponent. The questions
were not so difficult. They were common knowledge, things that you
should remember but don't. If a man had a phenomenal memory, as
some people do, and he was the opponent, it would be possible to
work with it.
As a matter of fact, I am sure that was the case. Because I was told
with O'Rourke, if he misses you miss. That was it. In other words,
apparently he was not fixed. I am sure he was not because he was a
brilliant young man. He is an Army captain. One of tlie reasons I
feel bad about this whole thing is if his name ever gets involved, it
would be a shame because in my own mind I am certain he was honest.
I am positive of it.
Mr. Moss. How many weeks had he been on the progi^am ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 311
Mr. DowD. I imagine it must have been around — in ordei- to win — he
must have been on 18 weeks at least, sir.
Mr. Moss. In 18 weeks you feel that he would not lose to other bril-
liant men ?
Mr. Do\VD. He almost lost eveiy thing he had.
Mr. Moss. But he did not ?
Mr. Do\VD. But he didn't. I just can't believe he would be dis-
honest.
Mr. Derounian. Is that the captain who had the foods and the
menus ?
Mr. Down. No, sir. You are thinkmg of the "$64,000 Question."
This is a different captain, sir.
Mr. LisiiMAN. This is "Tic-Tac-Dough" on a board and you pull
categories out and you do it on X's and 0"s.
Mr. jNIoss. You were usually told at the conclusion of an evening
you would be tied or you would be wimier ?
Mr. Down. Yes. I am certain he was not fixed, sir. I think I can
illustrate a reason why not.
I made a mistake and the program ended. I made a mistake and
it was possible for the captain to win. If they controlled the captain
they could have just told him to miss the wimiing question. But
they didn't. They worked it out in such a way that the categories
came up so that it became a tie. I didn't think it was possible but
they managed it. They were very clever.
Mr. Moss. Let me understand. You made a mistake?
Mr. Down. I made a mistake.
Mr. Moss. You missed your line. At that point he could have won ?
Mr. Dow^D. He could have won.
Mr. Moss. But it ended in a tie and this was through manipulation
of categories when they wanted him to lose?
Mr. Down. They didn't want him to lose or win. They wanted him
to tie to lose money.
Mr. Moss. He tied even though you had muffed your line?
Mr. Down. But in order to do this, in order to make this tie be-
come possible, they had to manipulate the categories in an unusual
way.
This Captain O'Rourke was quite bright. He had figured out the
categories that the boxes would take. There are nine boxes, X's and
O's. The nine lx)xes each had a different category. He was so clever,
which category would come up, for example. He was always think-
ing ahead. What they did was to change the pattern to throw him
otf and enable a tie.
Mr. Moss. How do you know^ they changed the pattern?
Mr. DowD. Because lie meiitioned it after the program to Mr.
Felsher and INIr. Felsher said w^e don't have any set pattern. We
can't guarantee a pattern. It may come out most of the time this
way, but it may sometimes not come out. I am certain it was con-
trived.
Mr. Moss. That was a conclusion then; you do not know.
Mr. Down. Mr. Felsher said to me after the program, we made it,
or something like that. He said "He is upstairs, Captain O'Rourke,
trying to figure out what happened."
312 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
In other words, O'Eourke— in fact O'Rourke asked him — Mr,
Felsher said O'Ronrke asked me why didn't the patterns come up
consistently like they normally do.
Mr. Moss. Do you suppose his puzzlement had been because you
did not answer the question the way you were supposed to ?
Mr. Down. That was the next week. The change in the pattern
occurred the following; week. The previous week.
Mr. Moss. I am talking of the program where you muffed your
line.
Mr. Down. When I muffed my line, there was not any question.
He was very happy about it. He was not surprised or anything. I
am sure he would have gone on to win if it had not been a coinci-
dence that the end of the progi\am was there. The time ran out.
Mr. Moss. It is just wherever I see an interesting coincidence in
this pattern, I am suspicious.
Mr. Fltnt. Mr. Dowd, is it not possible that he was given the re-
quired amount of assistance by simply developing a pattern, that
they either actually disclosed to him or did it by indirection by fol-
lowing the same pattern each time?
Mr. Dowd. I am soriy to say, sir, I don't follow the tenor of your
question.
Mr. Fltnt. I will try to rephrase it or make it a little clearer.
Is it not possible that the manner in which he was given assistance
was by developing a pattern that he could follow ?
Mr. Dowd. No, he was a very clever fellow. There was a pattern
there if one wanted to search for it. I am sure of that. I had heard
it from other people.
No, I don't think they gave him a pattern or exposed it. He was
clever enough to figure it out for himself. He was brilliant. Before
the program we would often ask things and Captain O'Rourke just
knew everything.
Mr. Flynt. In categories he knew ?
Mr. Down. No. Anything. You name it, and he would name it.
He was a very bright person.
Mr. Moss. Did Mr. Felsher ask Mr. O'Rourke any questions before
the program ?
]\Ir. Dowd. Not to my knowledge. They never did that at "Tic-
Tac-Dough".
Mr. Moss. Did they have any conferences that you knew of before
the program ?
Mr. DowD. I can't remember any.
Mr. Moss. Wliat is your best recollection? Did they or did they
not?
Mr. Down. They may have had some. I think they may have had
some because it was the sort of urogram where we woidd liave to speak
to Mr. Felsher before. He had to speak to Mr. Felsher before.
For one thing, there was mail. He was always getting letters from
people.
For another thing, Mr. O'Tvourke used to fly in so he was not avail-
able at any other time except before the program.
Mr. Moss. Do j^ou recall any of these conferences ?
Mr. DowD. No, I don't specifically.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 313
In other words, I don't remember ever seeing them go into a closed
room together. Generally speaking, we were all together all the time.
Mr. Moss. Your impression is that they did have conferences ?
Mr. DowD. Yes, it was, sir.
]Mr. ISIoss. Were they short or long conferences, to the best of your
recollection ?
Mr. Down. When I say conferences, I think that any conferences
they might have had would probably have taken place some place else
other than the theater. Maybe O'Kourke saw him at the offices of
Barry & Enright during the day prior to the show. To my mind
O'Rourke was not fixed. I just can't believe it.
Mr. jNIoss. I am not asking you for your opinion there.
Mr. Down, I am sorry, sir.
Mr. Moss. I am asking you as to the conferences.
You say they might have taken place in O'Rourke's room?
Mr. Down. In his hotel room or in Felsher's office the day of the
show.
Mr. Moss. You feel that they probably took place.
What do you base that on ?
Mr, Down. I base it on this : One night when I was receiving ques-
tions and answers at the offices of Barry & Enright, 667 Madison Ave-
nue, Mr. Felsher received a long-distance call, I believe from O'Rourke,
saying that O'Rourke was flying in. I just gathered the impression
that he did see him before the show.
Mr. Moss. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Dowd, thank you very much for your
appearance,
pearance.
As far as I laiow, ]\Ir. Dowd can be excused. Is that right.
Mr. LisHMAN. Yes.
The Chairman. You may be excused, if you like.
]Mr. Dowd. Thank you, sir, very much. Thank you, gentlemen.
(Thereupon, at 2:25 p.m., the committee proceeded to other
business.)
The special subcommittee met in executive session at 2 :25 p.m., in
room 1334, New House Office Building, Hon, Oren Harris (chairman)
presiding, a quorum being present,
(The testimony taken at this executive session was released by the
subcommittee by vote taken November 3, 1959.)
The Chairman. The committee will be in order, Mr, Jurist, will
you come to the witness stand, please ? Will you be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give to the committee to
be the truth, the whole ti-uth and nothing but the truth, so help vou
God?
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD JURIST
Mr, Jurist, I do.
The Chairman, State your full name for the record.
Mr. Jurist. Edward Jurist,
The Chairman, Give your address,
Mr, Jurist, 311 North Alpine Drive, Beverly Hills, Calif,
The Chairman, What is your business or profession ?
Mr, Jurist, I am a free lance television writer and producer.
314 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
The Chairmax. Mr. Jurist, you have contacted me and Mr. Lish-
man of our staff the last few days about the difficulty of your appear-
ance here.
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
The Chairman. You were rather insistent on sending in just a state-
ment to be filed for the record and avoid your pei-sonal appearance on
the basis of the illness of your wife.
Mr. Jurist. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. After several telephone conversations I finally ad-
vised you if you would come on here today we would hear you as soon
as possible, that we could get to you in order that you would then be
able to return home.
Now, in doing so, you indicated that you would feel better about it
or be more willing to come under the circumstances, if the committee
would hear youi in executive session. Is that true ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I think it is my duty as chairman of the committee
to advise you of the rules of the House that are applicable.
Under rule XI, 26 of the rules of the House of Representatives,
paragraph (m), it is provided that if the committee determines that
evidence or testimony at an investigative hearings may tend to defame,
degrade, or incriminate any person, it shall, (1) receive such evidence
or testimony in executive session; (2) afford such person an oppor-
tunity voluntarily to appear as a witness; and (3) receive and dispose
of requests from such person to subpena additional witnesses.
At the same time, I might advise you, also, that in paragraph (o)
of the rules, it is provided that no evidence or testimony taken in exec-
utive session may be released or used in public sessions without the
consent of the committee. In other words, I think you should be ad-
vised, Mr. Jurist, that any testimony you give in executive session un-
der the provisions of the rules which I have just read, that the com-
mittee may, subsequent to the hearing, determine that that testimony
does not come within the provisions of paragraph (m) and, therefore,
release it to the public or use it in public session.
I believe you understand that provision ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes. May I point out something in relation to this?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Jurist. In addition to the point you made about my wife being
ill and leaving her in a rather critical situation against the advice of
her psychiatrist, and in addition to traveling 6,000 miles to cooperate
with this committee, I also have a very critical business problem.
Having gone to Hollywood a year ago, I have spent that year trying
to establish myself both as a writer and more particularly, as a pro-
ducer, which has been rather difficult. I have produced one thing,
which is a pilot film, which is just at this moment on the point of being
purchased. In fact, today in the Desilu lot in Hollywood a meeting is
taking place which is very critical and at which I should be present.
All I can tell you is that if my name appears in the paper I am
dynamited for that job.
' The Chairman. Is that because of the fact that the testimony that
you will give, the facts of which you have knowledge, are such that
would tend to defame or degrade your own name ?
]\fr. Jurist. In essence I would say yes, mine and that of others,
perhaps. Other contestants, other associates. Also, because of the
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 315
business in which I work. Since you have been reviewing it, I am
sure you understand it is one of the most frightened in the country,
you know.
The Chairman. Under the circumstances, I think the committee is
justified in hearing you in executive session. Of course, as I have al-
ready advised, it will be the decision of the committee as to whether or
not we feel it in the public interest to make your testimony available
to the public or to be used.
Mr. JuEiST. I miderstand.
The Chairman. Mr. Lishman, you may proceed.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Mr. Jurist, you were the producer of the television
show, "Dotto''?
Mr. Jurist. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. For how long a period were you the producer of the
show "Dotto" ?
Mr. Jurist. From the time it went on mitil the time it went off.
Mr. Lishman. About what date was that ?
Mr. Jurist. I have no recollection of that at all.
Mr. Lishman. For how long a period was "Dotto" on the air?
Mr. Jurist. I am just guessing. Nine months.
Mr. Lishman. What was your connection with the production?
Mr. Jurist. I was the producer.
Mr. Lishman. AAHio was your employer?
Mr. Jurist. The Frank Cooper Associates.
Mr. Lishman. Did you have complete charge of the production
itself?
Mr. Jurist. Substantially, yes.
Mr. Lishman. Was it Cy Fisher of the Cooper Associates who hired
you?
Mr. Jurist. Yes, I would assume he and Frank Cooper.
Mr. Lishman. Had you been the producer of other TV quiz shows?
Mr. Jurist. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lishman. Would you please name these other shows ?
Mr. Jurist. "Quiz Kids'', "Giant Step"', "$(U,000 Challenge". I
think that is it.
Mr. LiSHiiAN. Was assistance ever given to contestants in these
shows in advance of their reproduction on the air ?
Mr. Jurist. We will have to go into the word "assistance."
Mr. Lishman. Were the contestants given the questions and answers
in advance of the program ? . , . , .
Mr. Jurist. Not to my knowledge,
Mr. Lishman. What type of assistance was given ?
Mr. Jurist. May I start from a beginning point?
Mr. Lishman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jurist. Every effort was made to control the shows.
Mr. Lishman. What do you mean by "control"?
Mr. Jurist. Everything that happened on the show happen accord-
ing to the desires of the producer. That was the aim. It mostly suc-
ceeded. Sometimes it failed. Primary procedure was to find out
what people knew and frame questions accordingly.
The second procedure, to inculcate is a word I like to use, the people
with information you thought they ought to have in such a way that
they ideally were not aware you were doing it. That would be, I
would say, the extent on those other shows.
316 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LisHMAN. On the "$64,000 Challenge," which type of control
was used there?
Mr. Jurist. There was probably less need for control there than on
most other shows, except the "$64,000 Question." I take those two
shows together, for the obvious reason that the contestants were highly
qualified experts in a very narrow field and anybody can study Na-
poleon and really digest almost everything about Napoleon in very
short order. It is not the same as knowing everything about every-
thing. So there it would be a question of qualifying them in the
first place, which was a primary step on those shows. Then, finding
out what areas they were strong in and what areas they were weak in.
That would sometimes be enough. Most times enough, I would
say, if you had a really qualified expert and in most cases they did.
Mr. LiSHMAN, In other words, you had an applicant that you
would screen to find out whether he would be qualified and you would
go into the category, American history, let us say, you would proceed
to give him a very thorough examination in the American history,
during the course of which you would ask numerous questions which
might subsequently be telescoped together or rearranged in such a
way that he had been furnished the information in advance of the
actual question that was later asked on the show.
Mr. JumsT. Actually, you are distorting what I said.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Will you explain it, then ?
Mr. Jurist. If you ask a person a question and he gives you an
answer, you have not given him an answer. Am I correct ?
Mr. LisHMAN. That is correct.
Mr. Jurist. That is the procedure I am talking about. If you ask
a lot of questions of an expert in a particular field you are learning
a great deal about what he knows. Also, one thing will tell you
another. If a pei^on is an expert on music and he knows a not too
popular iTth century Italian composer, obviously he must know
Beethoven's first name. Do you know what I mean ?
Mr. LisHMAN. Yes.
Mr. Jurist. So you can conclude things from the questions you ask.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Did it happen on these other quiz shows — on the
challenge show- — that questions used there had actually been asked
of the contestant in advance of his appearance on the show?
Mr. Jurist. I really cannot say. I have to explain why. Actually,
my being producer of that show was only a stopgap.
The Chairman. What show is it? There was more than one
challenge.
Mr. LisiiMAN. The "$64,000 Challenge."
Mr. Jurist. There was the "$64,000 Question" and the "$64,000
Challenge," two separate shows produced by the same office.
The Chairman. You are talking about the "$64,000 Challenge" ?
]\Ir. Jurist. Yes. Actually, one show had gone off and to keep me
occupied, they put me on that show for like 10 Meeks or 9 weeks or
something. ^ly principal job was to be cerebral and write funny
inteiviews. I really did not have much contact with the contestants.
Most of what I am telling you about that show is surmised based on
my knowledge of the people.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Would you say that in a substantial percentage of
the performances of the "$64,000 Challenge" that assistance of some
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 317
kind was given to the contestant in advance of liis appearance on
the show?
Mr. Jurist. In the sense that I have just explained, yes. In essence
that is really the same thing. If you ask a person ancl you ferret out
w'hat he knows, you are helping him when you prepare material which
^ou feel he can answer or cannot answer.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In a substantial percentage of the performances you,
is a producer, would know in advance of the actual show who was
^oing to win ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes, who we hoped would win.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Who you were fairly certain would win?
Mr. Jurist. Fairly certain.
Mr. LisHMAX. Dichi't it turn out that way?
Mr. Jltrist. Most of the time.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In other words, you proceeded on the basis that you
would find out what people knew and then ask them about what they
knew.
Mr. Jurist. I would say — that is only surmise because I do not know
anything about other shows on which I did not work — I would assume
that would be the obvious principal method of control or the clever
one. Let me put it that wa3^
Mr. LiSHMAN. When you came to "Dotto"' as its producer, what
kind of controls were used on that show ?
Mr. Jurist. Much more severe controls. The same ones to begin
with. A questionnaire was given to everybody. Also, they were
sounded out by the whole staff in concord as far as personality. Manj'-
people who qualified in other respects would be rejected because they
obviously would not be good hams, you know. Further than that, we
definitely held interviews with them — my associates did — ^in which
they picked out as much information as they could from their back-
ground and their information.
Questions were framed to accommodate their information. Follow-
ing that, because of the fact that we had a day-to-day operation, and
to try to assure ourselves further that things would not so much come
out the way we wanted them, but that they won't look like asses, we
would interview them in the studio before the show and ascertain in
whatever way we could that tliey would be able to answer the questions.
This method was planned to be a subtle method. It was not always
so subtle, obviously.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Weren't there instances in which you actually gave
the answers to the contestants ?
Mr. Jurist. There is one classic example.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What is that?
Mr. Jurist. The example, I don't remember her name.
Mr. LiSHMAX. Marie Winn?
Mi\ Jurist. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAX. Were there others who were given answers ?
Mr. Jurist, After finding that out, I presimie there were.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were there occasions when either the sponsor or
someone connected with the advertising agency would desire that a
certain contestant should stay on?
Mr. Jurist. There was only one example of that. Well, no. I
guess anybody would express an opinion, gee, that is a swell contestant.
I hope she stays with us or he stays with us.
52294— 60— pt. 1 21 '
318 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LiSHMAN. If the sponsor should make such a suggestion to the
producer, would the producer then proceed to implement that sug-
gestion by giving questions in advance to such contestants?
Mr. Jurist. No.
Mr. LisHMAN. How would they assist such contestant to stay on
the show?
Mr. Jurist. I am quibbling but I will have to continue to quibbki
because no one was ever told or had my permission to give answers;
to anybody. They did everything short of that, which I guess you
can say in substance was giving them the answers. To me, it was not.:
To me it was perpetuating the illusion or the entertainment which|
is what this all was to me, entertainment. You would only spoil it by]
being obvious about it. |
Mr. LiSHMAN. In order to enhance the audience appeal did you!
arrange in advance for ties for certain of these programs ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes, we certainly did. :
Mr. LisiiMAN. Would you explain how that was accomplished? ;
Mr. Jurist. We had another method besides questions and answers,
We had another part to our show. We had pictures. The way in
which these pictures fell, sometimes a person who was behind in
questions could guess the picture because of the way the picture fell.
We designed the picture very carefully — a prominent feature was
more important than a strand of hair, let us say. So if we provided
that at that point that person would be able to get that picture. It:
would be the prominent thing. The other person would be ahead on,
questions so they would have more of a picture. Do you see what I
mean ?
Mr. LiSHMAN. Were arrangements made with the contestants sc
that they should know how many points they should take ?
Mr. Jurist. How many points they should take?
Mr. LisHMAN. Were arrangements made with the contestants sc
that they would tie?
Mr. Jurist. I don't really recall.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In this game, isn't it true that when a contestant had
25 points he was given an additional clue ?
Mr. Jurist. A clue. The clues were terribly crucial. Wliich clue
we gave was important. We could give a vague clue or a specific clue
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was it arranged in advance and was the contestant
notified as to what clue he would be given ?
Mr. Jurist. No. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. LiSHMAN. But you arranged it
Mr. Jurist. Well, yes, if we said "lived in log cabin" we expected
the guy to know it was Abe Lincoln. Wlio else lived in a log cabin,
you know.
In other words, what I am saying is that with various kinds of con-
trols we did eveiy thing Ave could to make the thing come out the wa}
we wanted it to come out, the way that was most exciting and mosi
entertaining.
Mr. LiSHMAN. What percentage of the performances thus arranged
by you in advance that came out in accordance with your expecta
tions ?
Mr. Jurist. I am just guessing wildly. Seventy percent.
The Chairman. What was that ? Seventy percent of the perf ormi
ances were controlled ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 319
Mr. Jurist. No. Came out the way we hoped they would.
Mr. LisHMAN. Due to the arrangements you made?
Mr. Jurist. Due to the controls that we exercised.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I wish, Mr. Jurist, you would just explain in your
own words liow you would handle a typical performance, how you
sat down with your associates and plamied how the show would be run
on a given evening, so tliat then we will have a clear picture as to just
how these rather subtle controls were exercised.
Mr. Jurist. The evening show or the daily show ? You know there
were two shows.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Let us take the evening show.
Mr. Jurist. The evening show we did not really sit down in com-
mittee so much because there were not that many people involved.
The daily show we did. We sat down in the theater in committee
and said, gee, I don't like her any more. Let us dump her. Gee,
she is great. Tomorrow let us have a contest of 35 points and a 25
and try for a tie of 20 on the second one.
Then the artist would be there and I would say — I had established
a pattern of recognition with him or them so that when I said 35
he knew that only the last five — in other words, it didn't matter
whether the picture was 25, or 35 or 45. It was where that crucial
or most prominent feature came in that would give the person the
face, you see. That is about it. Let us have a tie there and there
and so on.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Who was the artist that participated in such
meetings ?
Mr. Jurist. There was a group of artists.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Eric Leiber?
Mr. Jurist. Yes. Leiber was principally responsible. I have for-
gotten the other names.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Didn't the amount of money that the contestant won
depend on the amount of dots that were left remaining unconnected?
Mr. Jurist. Yes, as I recall.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was control of the budget one of the principal fac-
tors in determining how many of such dots would be left, ?
Mr. Jurist. No. Really the budget never concerned us particu-
larly because we were always within the budget the way we were
playing it.
Mr. LiSHMAN. You were able to control the budget in another
manner?
Mr. Jurist. It didn't matter. Like my bank account, I take money
out when I need it and there always seems to be enough there.
Mr. Goodwin. You were selecting the number of dots; you com-
pletely controlled the amount of monev that would be won, didn't
you?
Mr. Jurist. Perhaps. It so happened that there was enough money
in the budget so that by playing the game tlie way we were playing
it we never seemed to be in trouble with monev."^ So tliat was"^ not
our purpose.
Our purpose was entertainment. The entertainment of a longer
game and a shorter game and a tie and a continued tie and tlie mount-
ing excitement. Tliat is what we were really scheduling. We were
scheduling the entertainment.
320 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. LisHMAN. Wlio was tlie advertising agency involved in
"Dotto"?
Mr. Jurist. Ted Bates, Inc.
Mr. LiSHMAisr. "Who was the sponsor ?
Mr. Jurist. Colgate.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did you ever receive any suggestion either from the
sponsor or from Ted Bates as to what contestants should be continued
on a program ?
Mr. Jurist. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. LiSHMAN. How about Miss Hines ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN". Didn't you at one time have a feeling that she should
be left off the program ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes. No. Wliat happened was we felt that her in-
formation would not carry her any further; whereas, somebody, I
don't know who it was — a client or the agency — felt that she was very
desirable to haA^e on the show. Very attractive, very vivacious and
so forth and so on, and said it would be nice.
As I recall that, I remember giving testimony about that. I have
to say very frankly that some of what I said were surmises. I was
urged to tiy to continue her.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was it understood by either the advertising agency
or the sponsor that you were exercising controls on the "Dotto" pro-
gram ?
Mr. Jurist. I don't know for a fact.
Mr. LisiiMAX. Did Mr. Labatta have that understanding?
Mr. Jurist. I don't know for a fact. I can only say for them and
the agency and the network and anybody else I would assume that
they would know if they knew the business. But I can't point to a
fact or a conversation I had with somebody where somebody ad-
mitted his knowledge of that.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Was this system of controls a widespread practice
in this business ?
Mr. Jurist. I can only assume that. I will say this. I don't see
how a show can be done without it and have any entertainment in it.
Mr. LiSHMAN. In the interest of saving time, Mr. Chainnan, I
would like to suggest, if Mr. Jurist is willing, that he be given the
opportunity of reading his testimony before the grand jury, and then
appending a sworn statement to it, that he has read this testimony and
that it is a true and correct transcript of the testimony he gave a that
time.
Tlie Chairman. You are asking that this witness be permitted to re-
view the testimony before the grand jury ?
Mr. LiSHMAN. Given by him, so that he may attach to it a sworn
statement that it is correct transcript of such testimony, that it may
be treated as an independent statement of this witness before this
committee.
In this way we would liave in the subcommittee record the benefit
of his more than 70 pages of testimony before the grand jury. Other-
wise, if we were to go through here and attempt to question him
closely in detail on these more than 70 pages of testimony, we would:
be here a considerable time.
The Chairman. Mr. Jurist, we had a young man who testified this:
morning that he appeared on your show, by the name of David i
Huschle. Do you recall one David Huschle ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 321
Mr. JuKiST. Yes, sir.
The Chairmax. Mr. Huschle testified as to how liis part of the show
was controlled and the information that was given to him. The ques-
tions had been outlined. Are you familiar with that?
Mr. Jurist. With the information that was given to him?
The Chairmax. Yes.
Mr. Jurist. Not directly, no. I have to explain that. With all the
shows we had to do, five daily shows and one evening show, I had
associates and in each case I delegated associates to work with the
contestants. I directed the picking of them and the plotting of the
show, which is the word we use, plotting of the show — again, an enter-
tainment word.
Since I had this much to supervise I had associates who worked
directly with the contestants. As I said before, their instructions were
to use one of these various methods to be sure the contestants could
answer.
The Chairman. Mr. Lishman, will you inquire of tliis witness, gen-
erally, the testimony that was given by Mr, David Huschle and see if
he corroborates wliat Mr. Huschle said ?
Mr. LisiiMAx. Mr. Huschle testified this morning that he was taken
into a room where he was rehearsed by Mr. Gil Gates and given the
questions and answers in advance and also told how man}^ points he
should select. He was also told when to lose, and so forth. Are you
familiar with that ?
Mr. Jurist. He was given the questions and answers directly ?
Mr. LisHMAx. Directly.
Mr. Jurist. Without any
Mr. LisHMAX. Yes : without anv
As well as the name of the picture. He was told everything.
Mr. Jurist. All I can say about that is that it is about as clumsy
as it could be.
Mr. LiSHMAx. Would you say that his testimony to that effect was
correct or not ?
Mr. Jurist. I would not have firsthand knowledge of that.
Mr. LisHMAx. Mr. Gates would be the only man with that knowl-
edge.
Mr. Jurist. Firsthand knowledge; yes. The responsibility I dele-
gated was to employ one of these methods.
Mr. LisHMAx. This could have been a method that Mr. Gates
employed on that occasion with Mr. Huschle.
Mr. Jurist. Apparently it was, if that is what he said.
Mr. LiSHMAx. Similarly Mrs. Dubarry Hillman. Do you recollect
her as a contestant?
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
Mr. LisHMAx. She gave similar testimony. In her case it was Mr.
Green who gave her the information.
Mr. Jurist. Yes. He was on the daily show and Gates was on the
nighttime sliow.
The Ghairmax. You do not have personal knowledge of that
yourself?
Mr. Jurist. No.
The Ghairmax. Some one else talked to her ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
The Ghairmax. "\Y1io would that have been ?
322 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Jurist. As Mr. Lishman just said, Mr. Green. I had two as-
sociate producei-s. Well, thi-ee actually, or four. Each with a dif-
ferent responsibility. Two of those associate producers were to
handle the informational aspect of the show as it related to
contestants.
The Chairman. Mr, Green w^as one of those ?
Mr. Jurist. Gates was the other.
Mr. LisHMAx, Where are they ; do you know ?
Mr. Jurist. I presume in New York.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Jurist, Mrs. Hillman testified that most of the
time she was given the questions.
Mr. Jurist, Questions ?
Mr. Lishman. Yes.
Mr. Goodwin. She was asked the questions and they later turned
upon the program.
Mr. Jurist. Yes ; that is one of the methods.
Mr. Goodwin. Is that a typical method ?
Mr. Jurist. Not clever but that is one of the methods.
The Chairman. There was a comedian that appeared here tliis
morning by the name of Hilgemeier.
Mr. Jurist. I know the name.
The Chairman. I assume that you did not have a direct contact
with him as to his part in the show.
Mr. Jurist. He was not on the show but I did have extremely di-
rect contact with him.
The Chairman. Before the show ?
Mr. Jurist. No. Afterward.
The Chairman. After the show ?
Mr. Jurist, Yes.
The Chairman. He testified about the $1,500 that you participated
in.
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
The Chairman. Was that true ?
Mr. Jurist. The $1,500 — I didn't liear the word following.
The Chairman. The $1,500 settlement.
Mr. Jurist. Yes. I did.
The Chairman. He testified that he had come to you or he talked
to you about it and after the conversation that you made the propo-
sition to settle with him for $1,500 and that would be it.
Mr. Jurist. That is an unimportant version of the incident.
The Chairman. Would you give your version ?
Mr. Jurist. He came to me after he stood by. That is, we always
had one person standing by in case things did not work out the way
we expected them to, so that there would be somebody to go on. He
stood by and later in the day he came to see me. He had a piece of
paper on which the answers of one of the contestants on the show
were written. He not only had the paper, he had it photostated in
four copies and had already been to a lawyer. With him he brought
the young lady who had lost in that contest. I was very upset. Not
for moral reasons, obviously but the clumsiness of this thing. He
was quite obviously, I will put it bluntly and quickly because I loiow
your time is short, trying to blackmail me. He said I only w\ant
what she gets. He repeated over and over again. I said what do
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 323
you mean ? Only what she gets. She is not getting anything. Wliat
are you talking about? Naturally I was anxious to pacify him.
Furthermore, I had already found out by that time that he was not
a bona fide contestant but a part-time bus boy and actor and had been
on many shows. That was an absolute blanket prohibition on the
show, never to use what we call professional contestants, people who
go from show to show and pretend not to have been on other shows.
Much time elapsed and finally a settlement was made with the girl
who had lost the contest. It seemed to me she had been injured. A
substantial amount of money was given her. I don't know how the
figure was arrived at. I think it had something to do with what she
could have won at that point or something like that, and it was some-
thing like $4,000.
Then he said I want what she gets. Actually I was not in on this.
I am only repeating what I heard because it was turned over to other
people. I want what she got. We knew him for what he was, so
we simply ignored him. Then finall}^ he came and said he had told
the Post reporter all about this and if he didn't get it — at which
point, instead of punching him in the nose, we gave him $1,500.
The Chairman. Is that considered hush money then?
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
The Chairman. And he accepted it?
Mr. Jurist. He took it. As they have said over and over again,
blew the whistle.
The Chair^nian. He didn't hush ?
Mr. Jurist. Xo.
The Chairman. He also testified that he was assured that he would
appear on a subsequent show within a week or two and would win
some prize money. Is that true?
Mr. Jurist. That is a lie. No one was ever promised anything on
any show. Again for entertainment reasons. Because if you prom-
ised them something they would not be hoping, and if they were not
hoping, they would not be interesting.
The Chairman. Did you tell him at any time, even after tliat, that
he could come back on the show ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes. I think I did say in an initial meeting — I don't
remember, but at a later time — I was trying to })acify a man I con-
sidered to be extremely irresponsible. I said what is it you want?
Do you want to go on the show? Fine. At the same time I was
saying to myself I will jump off something before I ever put him on
the show.
The Chairman. In other words, you made him believe you would
put him back on the show ^
Mr. Jurist. But I certainly never said to him, nor to anybody else
at any time, go on the show, you will win money or X immber of
dollars.
The Chair^nian. And neither did you intend ever to ])ut him back
on the show even though you told him you would ari'ange it ?
Mr. Jurist. That is correct. Particularly since by that time — I
cannot remember the sequence exactly — I had discovered who he was.
It was exactly the wrong kind of person, the kind of person we would
not put on the show. Not because we didn't want them to win money
twice but because people would recognize him and, therefore, the
entertainment would not be as pleasing.
324 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Rogers. Mr. Jurist, you said you found out what a contestant
did know in order to couch your questions in proper lan^uaoe and
expect to get an effective answer. Did the moderator or interlocutor
or master of ceremonies know about this?
Mr. Jurist. No, never. Again for the same reason : Because if he
knew his performance would be uninteresting.
Mr. Rogers. What worries me, suppose a contestant had gotten out"
of hand, you would also know by your previous categories in which
he was without knowledge, wouldn't you?
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. So if he did begin to get out of pocket, did you have
any method of permitting the master of ceremonies to take the
question out of that category and give him something that he didn't
know ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rogers. In other words, what you did, you just had complete
control of the situation?
Mr. Jurist. In every possible way.
Mr. Rogers. About 98 percent ?
Mr. Jurist. Ninety -eight is high.
Mr. Rogers. But the chances were much in your favor that he
w^ould be able to answer a question or wouldn't be able to answer a
question, as you decided you wanted him to do ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes. May I add to that, everything was always in
the contestant's favor. We never won anything.
Mr. Rogers. I understand, but you were being paid. You were
not paying for the shoAv on the side ?
Mr. Jurist. No. To me it is an important point, actually. That
is, aside from the moral question that in essence we were not out to
penalize anybody nor to take anything away from them. We were
out to give them something. Everybody got something.
Mr. Rogers. You mean by that, too, that you did not get any excess
prize money if there was excess prize money ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes. Even beyond that.
Mr. Rogers. Did you do that? If you didn't use up the prize
money would you have been entitled to it ?
Mr. Jurist. I personally ?
Mr. Rogers. I mean your organization.
Mr. Jurist. Oh, no. That money belonged to the client.
Mr. Rogers. To the sponsor of the program ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
Mr. Rogers. One other question : Did you consider these activities
of yours in this regard unmoral or dishonest or fraudulent?
Mr. Jurist. No, I don't, really. If you like I will explain why.
Mr. Rogers. I wish you would. It has me disturbed quite a bit.
Mr. Jurist. Because here is what I think we did. I was just touch-
ing on this before, but I will enlarge on it now. We took some people
who were bright and amusing people and we put them on a television
show that millions of people watched. We gave them the biggest ex-
perience of their lives. If they were lucky they won a lot of money;
if they were not so lucky they won a little money. They were not
injured or maimed. All they had was a lot of fun and additional
reward. I don't consider that immoral, particularly if you have
grown up in the entertainment business as I have.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 325
Mr. Rogers. What about the viewing public? That is who I am
talking about.
Mr. Jurist. Well, you know I said I didn't consider it immoral
then. I don't say I don't consider it immoral now. I really don't
know now. Naturally with this much questioning of the tiling I am
of course beginning to wonder. As far as the viewing public is con-
cerned, I wish I had a dollar for every time, long before any of this
ever was uncovered, that some viewer didn't say over and over again,
and perhaps one of them is in this iroom right now, the whole thing
is rigged. But they kept watching it.
j\Ir. RoCxERS. Yes, that is true. Your testimony that you supplied,
wouldn't that same test apply to a baseball or football game^
Mr. Jurist. Well, of course, you have one area that is not present
in a television show, and that is betting.
Mr. Rogers. What?
Mr. Jurist. Betting on a widespread scale.
Mr. Rogers. Betting is out of it. I am talking about the con-
tests. You have here a contest of witnesses that is advertised to
the public as such and they are viewing it. There is a controversy
as to whether this television belongs to the people or not. But that is
beside the point. They are viewing it and they go and pay 25 cents
or $5 to see a baseball or football game and they are viewing that as
a physical contest.
Mr. Jurist. You may have something there. I have always used
the analogy on the other side of the fence. Dunninger — you know, the
mind reader— creates and sells the illusion that he reads minds. He
doesn't read minds. He performs a charade of a kind.
Mr. Rogers. That is true. Actually people are aware of that fact,
don't you think ?
Mr. Jurist. No, they believe it. They may say how can lie do it,
but they believe it and they watch it.
Mr. Rogers. Your position is that if a football game was fixed and
people kept on seeing it you ought to let them go on seeing it?
Mr. Jurist. Let us go to the fight game.
Mr. Rogers. That is the same thing. Basketball, baseball, boxing,
everytliing.
Mr. Jurist. You have a point there.
Mr. Rogers. I believe that is where I will stop.
The Chairman. In other words, this ceases to be a battle of wits
or the knowledge of the contestants. It turns out to be a battle of
skills of producers, doesn't it ?
Mr. Jurist. Except you are leaA^ing out one thing. When you
find out what a person knows and then ask him questions based on
what he knows you are exhibiting his knowdedge, are you not?
The Chairman. Yes. Suppose he doesn't know it, then you help out
just a little bit.
Mr. Jurist. It begins to sound very unsavory.
The Chairman. It is true ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes. I mean in the ways I have indicated.
The Chairman. Tliat is what I mean.
Mr. Jurist. Surely.
The Chairman. If he doesn't know the answers, then in the way
you have explained here, as some one said a moment ago, you in-
crease his knowledge a little bit.
326 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Moss. Do you not think that perhaps there is even a more
important impact? I have two small daughter. They were very
ardent fans of these programs. Those youngsters now know that
those were just as phony as they could be. This is a demonstration
on the part of a very large American industry. You say it is
shoddy. I say it is rotten, right down to the ground. I am not the
person who likes to moralize a gi-eat deal, but you have created prob-
lems for every youngstei- who watched them and who had confidence
in them. I think it is symptomatic of some far more basic problems
in this whole industry with you people in a mad rush to develop
something which is salable, which will draw a gi'eater dollar, with-
out any regard to a public obligation. I think it is one of the most
demoralizing influences, as it is operated and as it is exposed, that we
have present in this country today.
Mr. Springer. Just one' question, Mr. Jurist : Did you have charge
of the program about which the previous witness testified ?
Mr. GooDw^iN, No, the previous witness was on "Tic-Tac-Dough."
Mr. Springer. No questions.
Mr. Flynt. You were with the $64 Question and the Challenge?
Mr. Jurist. Just the Challenge.
Mr. Fltnt. Were you producing that program at the time a con-
testant by the name of Teddy Nadler was on it ?
Mr. Jurist. I think he may have be^n on at that time.
Mr. Flynt. He is reported to have quoted word for word from a
portion of the encyclopedia on one occasion. I just wonder if you
recall that, and if he was furnished with the exact page on which this
recitation which he gave verbatim was on ?
Mr. Jurist. I don't know. I only know from heai^ay that he is
certainly, or appeared to me from reports of those around me who did
know him, one of the highly qualified people.
Mr. Flynt. It is much more easy to control that contestant A
shall beat contestant B, or vice versa, than to control a tie. It is
much easier to control the thief than the tie ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
Mr. Flynt. You have to sharpen your wats and also sharj^en the
wits of the contestants to bring about a tie.
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
Mr. Flynt. Is that particularly true when low point questions are
used by both contestants ?
Mr. Jurist. You are talking about "Dotto" now ?
Mr. Flynt. I am talking about any kind where points are given.
Mr. Jurist. Is it particularly true?
Mr. Flynt. Let me give you an example. For example, by using
low point questions, it takes a series of two, three or four different
rounds to come anywhere near the required number of points where
anybody would be willing to stand pat, as they would in blackjack. It
becomes virtually impossible to produce a tie where low point ques-
tions are used unless both contestants are in on it, doesn't it ?
Mr. Jurist. Look, for example you say to a contestant, "Naturally
I can't give you the questions, but the first one is rough. That is all
I can tell you." They take five points. I have not told them to take
five points.
Mr. Flynt. Last night you were not here, and also yesterday aft- 1
emoon we were talkmg on a similar thing, that odds on three rounds j
INVESTIGATIOX OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 327
of two contestants runs over 100,000 to 1 that it would result in a tie,
even if they got the correct answer every time. Yet here have been
numerous instances of ties.
Mr. Jurist. It wasn't thi\t hard on our show. You are talking
about "Twenty-one.''- It was much easier on ours because we had the
picture and tlie clues and they all helped create ties. We were out to
make ties. That was the most exciting thing we had.
Mr. Flynt. What I am getting at, it is much more difficult to pro-
duce a tie unless you have controls.
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
Mr. Flynt. The fact of a tie is almost prima facie evidence of
control.
Mr. Jurist. Yes, sir.
Mr. Devine. I am interested in these safeguards that you boys in
the industry had to protect yourselves. I think we all recognize that
you did take some calculated risk that some contestant was going to
say that was one answer that was not given to me before the show.
Did you take any safeguards or did you stand up against that risk
not happening ?
Mr. Jurist. We just had faith in human beings.
Mr. Devine. Everybody raises his hand to God and bless his heart.
You didn't prepare your master of ceremonies or anyone else in case
something like that occurred, how to handle it ?
Mr. Jurist. It never happened.
Mr. Deatne. I understand it has not.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Moss.
Mr. Moss. Mr. Jurist, you stated that your staff was instructed to
ascertain however possible the extent of knowledge or the preparation
of these contestants for a program. At no point in these programs
was it ever determined to have a completely uninstructed performance,
was it ?
Mr. Jurist. You are talking about "Dotto"?
Mr. Moss. I am talking about the show that 3^011 had association
with, which I believe was "Dotto."
Mr. Jurist. Yes. I think there probably were occasions like that,
of no controls at all.
Mr. Moss. From the very beginning, the format in production re-
quired that controls be tightly imposed?
Mr. Jurist. I would say it was a premise of this entertainment.
Mr. Moss. Wasn't it more specific than that ? Wasn't it a definite
understanding and instruction to the entire production staff' that there
were to be tightly maintained controls over contestants ?
Mr. Jurist. Let me reply to you this way. Actually there was
never any lecture or code or point by point maneuver laid down.
I assumed that when my associates came to me from other shows that
they knew that the show had to be controlled, and that it would be
their responsibility.
Mr. Moss. By control, you mean that they had to take contestants
who had certain minimum capabilities, they had to ascertain what
those capabilities were, they had to give them a general idea by what-
ever method was most effective of the content of the program in which
they would participate ?
328 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOVES
Mr. Jurist. The other way around. The content of the program
might be based on what we find out about tliem.
Mr. Moss. That would be one way of informing them. If you
questioned them at length and then drafted the script to meet their
capability that was one way of determining definitely, or you might
proceed in another way. You might question them at length in an
area where perhaps they had no great competence, and through an
exchange of mformation when they answered incorrectly see that they
were properly coached to undertake their performance and to fulfill
their roles in the show because it is entirely a staged production, isn't
it?
Mr. Jurist. We thought of them as performers.
Mr. Moss. Entirely as a performance and never as a real contest ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
Mr. Moss. Your instructions to your staff were not to avoid this
but rather to do it.
Mr. Jurist. Yes. As I say, there were no formal instructions.
This was the premise of our work.
Mr. Moss. You mean that the practice is so widespread and so much,
a part of the pattern of production of this type of show that it is
unnecessary to give even a new member of your staff instructions as
to the methods used in preparing the contestants for the role in the
show ?
Mr. Jurist. Certainly as far as understanding that controls are a
premise of this kind of show; yes. In other words, when I use the
word "premise," that it didn't need to be laid out. It was the thing
you began with. It was the point from which you went on.
Mr. Moss. This understanding was not very general in your staff
or with your associates. You could have a bad crossup, couldn't you ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes. It would be shambles.
Mr. Moss. Did you exercise such tight controls to insure that you
could exploit these characters to the full limits of their capabilities?
You didn't neglect to have a control of some sort on instructions or
in staff conferences ?
Mr. Jurist. A control of some sort on staff conferences ?
Mr. Moss. To insure that the production was completely of the type
you desired?
Mr. Jurist. Yes. All the controls we hai'e talked about here today.
Mr. Moss. I know. We don't have them just arise automatically.
There must be some communication.
Mr. Jurist. Yes ; we had conferences.
Mr. Moss. In these conferences then these matters were very can-
didly discussed.
Mr. Jurist. Yes. It was an accepted fact that we had to control
the show.
Mr. Moss. So the fact that a contestant might arrive at a feeling
that the kIiow was fixed was in no way surprising to anyone on your
staff?
Mr. Jurist. Eventually it turned out that way.
Mr. Moss. Did you feel that the format of the production could be
advising ?
Mr. JiTRisT. Yes.
Mr. Moss. You mean that the subtleties of the preparation creep-
ing to the contestants was surprising ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 329
Mr. Jurist. Yes ; it could be. I daresay it often was.
Mr. Moss. Did you have excellent advice from psychiatrists or psy-
chologists as to the best procedures to use in this process of indoctri-
nation ?
Mr. Jurist. No.
Mr. Moss. Who developed the technique ?
Mr. Jurist. I don't know who developed them.
Mr. Moss. How did you learn them ?
Mr. Jurist. The basic and primary step I learned when I was doing
all of the quiz shows that I have mentioned here. That step is to find
out what the contestant laiew. Let me add something that I know
I testified to before the grand jury which is very relevant here. I
am a fairly well educated j^erson. In addition to that, I have been
dealing with information, facts and bits of information for a long
time with the shows. If you make up a list of 10 questions right now,
I will give you a thousand dollars to one that I can't answer more
than two of them, because the world of information is enormous. It
is simply enormous. You cannot ask random questions of people and
have a show. You simply have failure, failure, failure, and that does
not make entertainment.
Mr. Moss. Do you think that this general fact was known by the
owners of a show ?
Mr. Jurist. I have no firsthand knowledge of that, sir.
Mr. Moss. But it was veiy generally miown in the industry, the
field of production of shows.
Mr. Jurist. Known in the industry among people who did these
shows.
Mr. Moss. Yes.
Mr. Jurist. I would certainly guess so.
Mr. Moss. The production staffs.
Mr. Jurist. I would certainly guess so. I have no firsthand knowl-
edge of any shows except the ones I worked on.
Mr. Moss. Let us say you cannot demonstrate by your firsthand
knowledge, but you had such implicit faith that this was generally
known that 3^ou did not feel it necessary to communicate directly to
your statf the fact as to the procedures which would be employed.
Mr. JiTRisT. Yes. We used a kind of shorthand. If I had a new
man, I would say you have worked with contestants, haven't you?
He would say yes, I have. You understand it is important to know
what their areas are, what their strengths and weaknesses are. He
said sure I do. If he knows that, I presume he knows the following
steps.
Mr. Moss. You never got one from another show tliat he was so
honest that lie was not familiar with the techniques.
Mr. Jurist. Yes, but he didn't stay long.
Mr. Moss. Do you feel that the personnel of the networks who were
in constant contact with the producer had any knowledge of the
format of the production ?
Mr. Jurist. I have no firsthand knowledge of that.
Mr. Moss. ^AHiat kind of contact did they have with the show ?
Mr. Jurist. The networks have very little, except technical contact.
Mr. Moss. They own quite a few productions. Don't they have pro-
ducing oro-anizations of thei r own ?
330 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Jurist. Yes. Those shows they know about. Those that they
don't, they don't know too much about.
Mr. Moss. Do you think the format on the shows which they control
and produce themselves is different than the procedures on the show
you were responsible for ?
Mr. Jurist. The fact of the matter is that no network owned a quiz
show. No quiz show was packaged l)y a network that I know of.
Mr. Moss. NBC purchased "Twenty-one."
Mr. Jurist. They purchased it after it was packaged. They ab-
sorbed the assets of the whole corporation. But that is not the same
as producing it.
Mr. Moss. At one point they relieved the producer and took it over
as a network production.
Mr. Jurist. That is when the scandal broke out.
Mr. Moss. Then tliey had to continue to have knowledge through-
out the period of production under their direction.
Mr. Jurist. Your guess is as good as mine.
Mr, Moss, ^¥i\o was the producer of "$64,000 Challenge" when you
were with it ?
Mr. Jurist. I was. Who was the packager? Entertainment
Packages, Inc.
Mr. Moss. Who owns it ?
Mr. Jurist. There are some stockholders, I presume. A man by
the name of Harry Fleischman is the president, I think, of that
corporation.
Mr. Moss. At the time you were at the show, it was not owned by
Mr. Cowan ?
Mr. Jurist. No.
Mr. Moss. Had the format employed there been in any way different
from the format on other shows where you acted as producer? I
am talking of procedures in dealing with contestants.
Mr. Jurist. Was it different than on other shows? Yes. Only
because, as I said early in this hearing, these people were highly
qualified experts. Therefore it was not necessary to do anything
more than take the first step which is to find their areas of information.
Mr. Moss. Is this a continuing procedure while the contestant is on
the show? He is reinterviewed and reinterviewed in order to have
continuing knowledge of his limits?
Mr. Jurist. It would vary, sii".
Mr. Moss. Usually.
Mr. Jurist. I would say it would vary. You could talk to one '
person and you could see in a moment that this person had this field
covered eight ways, you know. That would be all you would have to
do.
Mr. Moss. Mr. Jurist, I think you indicated that you have acquired
a great deal of knowledge as a result of working with the quiz pro-
grams for a period of many years.
Mr. ffuRisT. Some knowledge.
Mr. Moss. Yet you were willing to lay a thousand dollar bill on the
table and bet me that if I asked 10 questions you would answer only 2.
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
Mr. Moss. Have you ever met any associates in these quiz programs
that were able to do any better unless there was a discussion of their
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 331
area of knowledge so you knew what you were dealing with when the
questions were prepared for the show ?
Mr. Jurist. In the one case I was talking about general knowledge.
In the other case I was talking about a specific field, totally different
problems. General knowledge is vast and unending. That is where
I would fail. However, if you give me a week I will come back with a
lot of stuff memorized about Napoleon and then go. It is much easier.
Mr. Moss. Indefinitely^ 10 weeks? 15 weeks? Wouldn't you
have to have a refresher ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes. You take Napoleon. Wliat can you ask about
liim ?
Mr. Moss. Almost anything.
Mr. Jurist. Not too much. Not compared with general knowledge.
That is all I am saying. Of course, it is a lot of stuff' but it is very
restricted.
Mr. Moss. Generally a very prudent policy of knowing well the
capability of the contestant ?
Mr. Jurist. I am sori-y, I didn't follow you I
Mr. Moss. Generally you took care to know well the capabilities of
the contestants with whom you were dealing ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes, I would say that was primary.
Mr. Moss. And that was true of all shows ?
JNIr. Jurist. I would say so. I know it was true of all the shows I
was on, and I assume it was true of other shows.
Mr. Moss. You indicated that 70 percent of the total shows were
controlled successfully. Were those usually the ones involving the
larger winnings rather than just the beginners? You get a couple of
new contestants on a show. Where does the 30 percent fall ? In the
smaller wimier class ?
Mr. Jurist. I don't know how to answer that.
Mr. IVIoss. Let us say Avhen you had a lot. of prize money on the table,
was that usually a pretty closely controlled show \
Mr. Jurist. On the daily show money was never a problem. It
really was not a problem. We had enough to play with so that just by
going on from day to day we never had any problem. We never had
the problem of saying, "Oh, my God, we are 2,000 over, we have to do
something about it.'' We just never had that problem.
Mr. Moss. Then we have three contestants on your show who ap-
peared before us today. They testified that they received questions,
answers, and the specific points they were to request. Did you have
knowledge of that procedure, this more specific?
Mr. Jurist. I do now.
Mr. Moss. And less subtle. Did you at the time ?
Mr. Jurist. No. I didn't. When I learned it
jMr. Moss. Had you known it, would you have taken steps to have
prevented it or would you have permitted it ?
Mr. Jurist. No, I would have taken steps to see that it was not done
so obviously.
Mr. Springer. How long were vou associated with the $61,000
Challenge"?
Mr. Jurist. I think about 9 or 10 weeks.
Mr. Springer. Is it true that on that program, as well as in "Dotto,''
the contestants received questions and answers ?
332 IN\^ESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Mr. Jurist. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Springer. Would you have been in charge of that part?
Mr. Jurist. No, I wasn't.
Mr. Moss. Could you effectively control a show without dealing
equally with both contestants as to subtle indoctrination '(
Mr. Jurist. Of one and not the other ?
Mr. ^loss. Of one only, rather than both.
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
Mr. Moss. You could control it with just one contestant?
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
Mr. Moss. But it would be impossible to control without at least
one contestant.
Mr. Jurist. That is right.
Mr. Moss. I noticed that in many of the quiz shows, and I am trying
to recall on "Dotto," was it represented that the questions were
authenticated by some organization such as the Encyclopedia
Americana ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
Mr. Moss. Were they, in fact ?
Mr. Jurist. For a while, yes.
Mr. Moss. How was that arranged ?
Mr. Jurist. Wliat they did was to check us. In other words, in the
beginning they said, all right, call us every day and tell us what
your questions and answers are, and we will check them. So they
would and we would call back and they would say they are fine.
Maybe there was one instance of a question, or something like that.
When they found that we were actually in fact as expert as they were
in terms of accuracy, then they didn't bother to go through the
formality.
Mr. Moss, They permitted you to continue to represent the questions
to be authenticated when in fact they were not ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
Mr. Moss. That is all of my questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Derounian. Mr. Jurist, were you connected with the "Quiz
Kids" show?
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
Mr. Derounian. How about "Giant Step" ?
Mr. Jurist. That was also a Giant show.
Mr. Derounian. Did you use the same fonnat with these children
as you did with "Dotto" ?
Mr. Jurist. No. Again you had children that were terribly erudite.
Also kids are so much closer to information than adults. They are
going through the acquiring of information. We are forgetting it.
You had to find out what they knew.
Mr. Derounian. Did you give them any assistance?
Mr. Jurist. Well, we might have suggested a field of study or an
area.
Mr. Goodwin. May I ask, isn't it true during the "Quiz Kids" show
people were sent out to talk to the young cliildren who were con-
testants to find out what areas they were strong in so they could be
asked about that on the show ?
Mr. Jurist. Of course. That is what I said.
The Chairman. You certainly have a briglit one in that little Joey.
Mr. Jurist. That is a lonjr time asfo.
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 333
Mr. LiSHMAN". Mr. Chairman, there are some questions that I have
which won't take very long. How many questions were on the card
that was held by the master of ceremonies ?
Mr. Jurist. Four.
Mr. LisHMAN. Did the public know that there was a fourth ques-
tion on that card ?
Mr. Jurist. No.
Mr. LisHMAN. What was the purpose of the fourth question on the
card ?
Mr. Jurist. To balance the contest. There would be a question
wliich would be a difficult question.
Mr. LisHMAN. Was that fourth question known as the "kicker" or
the "killer" ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes, and other names, too.
Mr. LisHMAN. When you decided that a contestant should be
dumped from the program, did you use the kicker ?
Mr. Jurist. No, that was not what it was used for. That is a
simple matter. We didn't have to use that. We just picked a ques-
tion we thought he couldn't answer.
Mr. LiSHMAN. How would the master of ceremonies know when to
use the kicker question ?
Mr. Jurist. We would signal him.
Mr. LisHMAN. How would you signal him?
Mr. Jurist. I believe it was touching the hair.
Mr. LiSHMAN. When he did that, then he was to ask tlie kicker?
Mr. Jurist. Yes. If he saw it.
Mr. LisiiMAN. Was it the intent by the use of the kicker that would
put an end to that contestant ?
Mr. Jurist. No. That was another way of arranging a tie.
Mr. LiSHMAN. It was another way of arriving at a tie ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAN. That is still another form of control in this arrange-
ment.
Mr. Jurist. Yes, that is right.
Mr. LiSHMAN". Mr. Jurist, you said that budget control didn't enter
into this situation at all, is that correct ?
Mr. Jurist. Yes, on the day show. .'
Mr. LisiiMAN. Isn't it a fact that the vice president of Colgate, the
sponsor, came to you and made certain statements to you about the
budget ?
Mr. Jurist. That was on the nighttime show. It was more of a
joking reference than anything else.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Well, we will find out. I will show you this to re-
fresh your recollection before reading it.
Mr. Jurist. "He was angry, not serious." What does tliat mean ?
Mr. LiSHMAN. Don't ask me.
]Mr. Jurist. Do you want to read down to this statement ?
Mr. LisHiNiAN. I don't want to read anything. I want you to re-
fresh your recollection when you said he was not serious.
Mr. Jurist. Yes. I think the testimony there indicates that I was
not ordered to do anything. I only had a reaction from him.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I will paraphrase what appears liere. Did Mr.
George Laboda of the Colgate Palmolive Co. indicate to you that you
52294—60 — pt. 1 22
334 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
should proceed very cautiously before you exhausted the money in the
budget ?
Mr. Jurist. He didn't use those words. I will tell you what he did
say.
Mr. LiSHMAN. I will read your testimony before the grand jury,
then.
Mr. Jurist. Fine.
Mr. LiSHMAN" (reading) :
Mr. Jurist, did George Laboda of the Colgate Palmolive Co. ever make any
statements to you concerning the budget?
Yes.
Did he ever indicate to you you were to proceed very cautiously before you
exhausted all the money in the budget?
Yes : but after the first show, I think it was the first show, when someone had
won $11,000.
This was the nighttime show?
Nighttime show. He came into the studio and said, "Well, who is your new
sponsor?"
Did he seem to be serious about it?
He was angry, not serious.
Did he indicate to you that he wanted you to be a little more cautious?
No. That was all he said.
That was all he said. How much was won on the next show?
Less.
Is that correct?
Mr. Jurist. Yes. The only exception I would take to that is not to
my statement but to the question that was asked. It was not my
words. Didn't he come to you, et cetera, to which I replied yes, is not
my phraseology. It was a pique, annoyance, half-joking, but it was
not a dictum. He did not say, "Jurist, watch out or you are through."
He was wondering what was going to happen if we gave away that
much money in that night. Wliat was going to happen to the budget.
It was not an order. I am only saying this to clarify what you are driv-
ing at. They didn't order us. Their concerns were in other areas
entirely. To do with the commercials, with the way the show was
mounted, and the placement of the commercial and credits and so
forth. I don't mean they never had a reaction to anything else. Sub-
stantially, if you are trying to make out a case that they ruled or con-
trolled all aspects of the show, it is not true.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did anyone connected with the Ted Bates Agency
have knowledge of the fact that controls were exercised on "Dotto"
in determining which contestants should remain on for long periods
of time?
Mr. Jurist. There might be an exception, but I would say no to
that.
Mr. LiSHMATsT. I would like again to show you the testimony you
gave to the grand jury.
Mr. Jurist. OK.
(Document shown to witness.)
Mr. Jurist. As you see that is substantially what I just said. I
said one instance; there were several. In substance they did not di-
rect the content of the show.
Mr. LisHMAN. Isn't it a fact that the basis of all of the controls
here were to ascertain as precisely as you could in advance what
specific knowledge the contestant had on a particular subject and then
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 335
ask him only those questions which in your mind you had a i-easonable
certainty he could answer?
Mr. Jurist. Exactly.
Mr, LiSHMAN. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Jurist, do you have a plane back to California
this afternoon?
Mr. Jurist. Yes.
The Chairman. Wliat time?
Mr. Jurist. Seven o'clock. However, I can take a later one.
The Chairman. I am going to instruct Mr. Howze, who has worked
on this, and Mr. Coleman, to go with you and complete the statement
that was i-eferred to for the record, and when that is completed, then
we will again assemble the committer and take that statement in com-
mittee as your statement, as a supplemental statement to the one you
have already given. We have to go over to the public hearing at this
time to get'to the rest of the witnesses that we were to get to today.
I suppose the better thing to do is to go to the office where you have
people to work with and facilities, and let me know as soon as you
have completed.
(Thereupon at 3:55 p.m., the committee proceeded to open session.)
AfteiTioon public session held in the caucus room, old House Office
Building, Hon. Oren Harris (chairman) presiding, a quo nun being
present.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
For the information of those who are here, the conmiittee has been
in executive session in which we have heard Mr. Edward Jurist,
producer of "Dotto" show and also a part-time producer, or at least
worked part of the time on the production of the ''$64,000 Challenge."
Mr. Jurist came here requesting that he be heard in executive session
because some of his testimony, he contends, would tend to defame,
degrade, or incriminat-e some one or more persons. The committee
felt after investigating that Mr. Jurist's request was reasonable, and
therefore we have heard him rather extensively in executive session.
The committee will determine, as soon as it gets an opportunity, what
part of his testimony, if any, will be made public. I suspect a sub-
stantial part, if not most of it, will be made public.
We have also heard in executive session under the same conditions
the request of one Mr. Martin Dowd, who was a contestant in the
"Tic-Tac-Dough" show. Similarly, the committee will decide, as soon
as it has an opportunity, what part of that testimony will be made
public.
Yesterday morning the Chair received a wire signed by one Charles
Van Doren. Among other things it advised that he is available to the
committee. I might say that previously to these hearings staff mem-
bers conferred with Mr. Van Doren and Mr. Van Doren was given
personally an invitation to appear and testify before this committee.
Notwithstanding his wire, in which he requested that a certain state-
ment of his in this fashion be included in the record, which the com-
mittee feels would not be the most appropriate way to make a com-
plete record, the committee wired Mr. Van Doren yesterday — last
night — acknowledging the wire, advised that the committee would be
glad to comply with his request to appear and testify and respectfully
invites him to appear before the conunittee either Thursday afternoon.
336 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
October 8, which is this afternoon, or Friday morning, October 9. It
requested him to advise the time that we may expect him.
I might say it is well understood that the committee conducting
these hearings has scheduled hearings for only this week. Any fur-
ther hearings will have to be scheduled at sucli time as the committee
may be ready. Consequently, tomorrow is the last day.
In view of the fact that Mr. A^an Doren sought in this method to
get into the record, and in doing so that he was available to the com-
mittee, the committee felt that it was only fair to give him an oppor-
tunity to either come this afternoon or tomorrow at his convenience.
I must say that this is late in the afternoon and we have been expect-
ing some reply, in view of the fact that he initiated the matter himself.
We have not received any reply and consequently we are not at this
time advised whether he will, as he suggested himself, make himself
available.
Mr. Derounian. Mr. Chairman, may I make a statement on that
point. The National Broadcasting Co. is either Mr. Van Doren's em-
ployer or has a contractual relationship with him. I would hope that
this great network, which has sought to cooperate in this proceeding,
will see to it that Mr. Van Doren is here tomorrow. I say that because
I believe that the facts ought to be brought out to the American people,
the National Broadcasting Co., and this subcommittee. I think this
should be done in fairness to Mr. Van Doren also.
The Chairman. At this time we will ask Miss Kirsten Falke to come
around. I likewise would invite, if she desires, her mother, Mrs.
Harry Kitzing, if you desire, to sit with your daughter.
Miss Falke, will you be sworn? Do you solemnly swear the testi-
mony you give to this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Miss Falke, Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF KIESTEN FALKE
The Chairman. Give your full name to the committee, please.
Miss Falke. Kirsten Falke.
The Chairman. What is your address ?
Miss Falke. 858 Third Avenue, New York City.
The Chairman. How old are you ?
Miss Falke. Nineteen.
The Chairman. Are you a student ?
Miss Falke. Yes, I am, sir.
The Chairman. What school do you attend ?
Miss Falke. The Oberlin Conservatory of Music, at Oberlin, Oliio.
The Chairman. You are anxious to get back to your school ?
Miss Falke. I sure am.
The Chairman. Consequently, it is most impoitant that you be
peraiitted to go back home today.
Miss Falke. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You are here as a voluntary witness?
Miss Falke. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Were you a contestant on the quiz show "Tic-Tac-
Dough''?
Miss Falke. Yes, I was.
The Chairman. Do you recall when ?
INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS 337
Miss Falke. It was December 26 and 27 of 1956.
The Chairman. Mr. Lishman, you may proceed.
Mr. Lishman. Miss Falke, how old were you at that time ?
Miss Falke. I was 16.
Mr. Lishman. How did you come to be a contestant on "Tic-Tac-
Dough"?
Miss Falke. In answer to more or less an audition for a folk singer.
Mr. Lishman. Did you make an application to be a contestant on
this program?
Miss Falke. No. I was notified that there were some TV shows
or a TV show that was looking for someone who could sing folksongs,
and I went.
Mr. Lishman. You went to the offices? Where did you go?
Miss Falke. I don't know. I believe it was an office on Madison
Avenue. I don't know the exact place.
Mr. Lishman. Who did you audition for ?
Miss FALiiE. I remember singing in the office of Mr. Dan Enright.
Mr. Lishman. Mr. Enright?
Miss Falke. Yes.
Mr. Lishman. Did you have a conversation with Mr. Enright about
going on the program "'Tic-Tac-Dough" ?
Miss Falke. Yes, I did.
Mr. Lishman. Do vou remember what was said ?
Miss Falke. Not all of it. I do remember that the general plan
was that I would go on the program and it was mentioned that if I
happened to do well that possibly — my sister sang also — it might
■even work out that she could come on the program and sing a duet
with me.
Mr. Lishman. Were you later asked to see a Mr. Howard Fisher?
Miss Falke. Yes, I was.
Mr. Lishman. 1\Tio was Mr, Fisher?
Miss Falke. I don't quite know his exact position or status. All I
know is that he was the person with whom I did most of my business.
Mr. Lishman. What was your first conversation? Do you remem-
ber your first conversation with Mr. Fisher ?
Miss Falke. No ; I don't remember it at all.
Mr. Lishman. How many days before you went on the show did
you see Mr. Fisher ?
Miss Faijke. I would say about 4 days in the mornings.
Mr. Lishman. Did he notify you that you would be accepted as a
■contestant on the show ?
Miss Falke. Yes.
Mr. Lishman. Did he give you a card catalog to look at?
Miss Falke. Yes, he did give me a card catalog. That brings back
a couple of memories. In the offices after I had been introduced to
Mr. Dan Enright, I was taken into some smaller offices. As I walked
in I noticed a tall redheaded gentleman going through some cards.
I was given a card file similar to that with several categories in it.
My next few mornings were spent going through the card catalog.
Mr. Lishman. Did those cards have questions and answers on
them?
Miss Falke. Yes, they did.
Mr. Lishman. Do you remember how many questions each card
had on it?
338 INVESTIGATION OF TELEVISION QUIZ SHOWS
Miss Falke. Each card ?
Mr. LiSHMAN. Yes.
Miss Falke. I believe each card had one. I am not sure, though.
Mr. LiSHMAN". Each card had one question ?
Miss Falke. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAX. Were the answers also on these cards?
Miss Falke. The question was on under the category heading and
the answer was also on the card.
Mr. LisHMAN. Were these the same questions and answers which
were given later in the program by you ?
Miss Falke. I was told when I went through all these cards that
these particular questions, all of the card files full of them, were the
ones that were chosen to be presented as questions on the show. I was
not told at that time exactly which questions would be asked.
Mr. LisHMAN. A^Hien you went there, did you think that the show
was an honest contest ?
Miss Falke. I had actually not even thought about that aspect of it.
Mr. LiSHMAN. Did Mr. Fisher tell you how long you would be able
to stay on the program ?
Miss Falke. The final plan was that I would be on there approxi-
mately 2 days, maybe more. At any rate, I would tie twice with
Tim Horan and finally beat him. At that point the interest would be
enough that I could possibly bring my sister on to the show also.
Mr. LiSHMAx. Each day that you appeared on the program, in ad-
vance of appearing, you were given these cards with the questions and
answers which were Inter asked ?
Miss Falke. Could you state that again, please ?
Mr. LisuMAN. You appeared more than once on the program ?
Miss Falke. Twice.
Mr. LiSHMAX. On the first da}^ you were given the questions and
answers in advance of your appearance on the show itself, is that
correct ?
Miss Falke. Xo. If you mean I was given the questions that were
asked on that particular show — given the exact questions that were
being asked on that show — I was not. I was given lots of questions to
go through. They perhaps chose their questions from those.
Mr. LiSHMAN. But among those questions that j^ou were shown were
the questions that were asked you when you went on the show, is that
correct ?
Miss Falke. Yes.
Mr. LiSHMAX. When Mr. Fisher handed you these cards, what did he
tell you to do ?
Miss Falke. I was told to just memorize them as best I could because
the questions that would be asked of me were included in these card
files. 
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