(navigation image)
Home American Libraries | Canadian Libraries | Universal Library | Community Texts | Project Gutenberg | Children's Library | Biodiversity Heritage Library | Additional Collections
Search: Advanced Search
Anonymous User (login or join us)
Upload
See other formats

Full text of "Investigation of un-American propaganda activities in the United States. Hearings before a Special Committee on Un-American Activities, House of Representatives, Seventy-fifth Congress, third session-Seventy-eighth Congress, second session, on H. Res. 282, to investigate (l) the extent, character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propaganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary remedial legislation"



t 



Given By 
U. S. SUPT. OF DOCUMENTS 



3i 




^ 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN ^ ^ 
PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE 
UNITED STATES 



HEARINGS 

BEFORE A 

SPECIAL 

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 
ON 

H. Res. 282 

TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHAKACTER, AND OBJECTS 
OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED 
STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF 
SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA THAT IS INSTI- 
GATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN 
AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE FORM OF GOVERN- 
MENT AS GUARANTEED BY OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL 
OTHER QUESTIONS IN RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID 
CONGRESS IN ANY NECESSARY REMEDIAL 
LEGISLATION 



VOLUME 5 



MAY 18, 22, 23, 24, 31, AND JUNE 1, 1939 
AT WASHINGTON, D. C. 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities 




UNITED STATES 

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICH 

WASHINGTON : 1939 




INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN 

PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE 

UNITED STATES 



p , HEARINGS 

»W» C^^^rud^^ //^Wi BEFORE A 

SPECIAL 

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 
ON 

H. Res. 282 

TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND OBJECTS 
OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED 
STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF 
SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA THAT IS INSTI- 
GATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN 
AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE FORM OF GOVERN- 
MENT AS GUARANTEED BY OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL 
OTHER QUESTIONS IN RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID 
CONGRESS IN ANY NECESSARiY REMEDIAL 
LEGISLATION 



VOLUME 5 



MAY 18, 22, 23, 24, 31, AND JUNE 1, 1939 
AT WASHINGTON, D. C. 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities 






UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
94931 WASHINGTON : 1939 






SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERIOAN ACTIVITIES, 
WASHINGTON, D. C. 

MARTIN DIES, Texas, Cnairman 
ARTHUR D. HEALEY, Massachusetts NOAH M. MASON, Illinois 

JOHN J. DEMPSEY, New Mexico J. PARNELL THOMAS, New Jersey 

JOE STARNES, Alabama 
JERRY VOORHIS, California 

ROBERT E. Stripling, Secretary 
Rhea Whitley, Counsel 
n 



Charged to credit accL 
with Supt of Documents 



•• ' • • • • 

»• *»• •••• 
' • • • • \ • • 



• 



CONTENTS 



Page 

Resolutions, text of, authorizing and continuing 3179 

Testimony of — 

Brodie, Reid, president. National Deposit Bank, Owensboro, Ky 3221 

Campbell, James E., Business Engineering Associates 3223, 3343 

Cooke, James F., department commander, American Legion 3212 

Deatherage, George E., Knights of the White Camellia 3455 

Gilbert, Dudley Pierrepont, American Nationalists, Inc 3180, 3286 

Hamilton, John, chairman, Republican National Committee 3384 

McWhirter, Felix M., treasurer, Indiana Republican State Committee. 3393 

Moseley, Gen. George Van Horn, United States Army, retired 3545 

INDEX TO EXHIBITS 

Exhibits: 

No. 1 - 3181 

No. 2 3202 

Nos. 3 and 4 3235 

No. 5 3236 

No. 6 3241 

No. 7 3242 

No. 8 3246 

No. 9 3249 

Nos. 10, 11, and 12 L 3250 

No. 13 3254 

No. 1 4 3267 

No. 15 : 3272 

No. 16 3275 

No. 17 3283 

Witness: , 

Gilbert, Dudley Pierrepont 3180 

Cooke, James iF.__ 3212 

Campbell, James E 3223 

Confidential exhibits 3191, 3215 

Addresses by Gen. George Van Horn Moseley Indianapolis, Ind., 
December 29, 1938, National Defense Meeting, Philadelphia, Pa., 

March 28, 1939 3628, 3634 

ni 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMEEICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



THURSDAY, MAY 18, 1939 

House of Eepresentatives, 
Special Committee to Investigate 

Un-American Acti\ities. 

Washington, I). C. 
executive session 

The committee met at 10 a. m., in room 532, Old House Office 
Building, Congressman Martin Dies (chairman) presiding. 

Present: Congressman Dies (chairman), John J. Dempsey, Nosth 
M. Mason, J. Parnell Thomas, and Jerry Voorhis. 

Also present: Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee. 

[H. Res. 282, 75th Cong., 3d sess., Rept. No. 2319] 
RESOLUTION 

Resolved, That the Speaker of the House of Representatives be. and he is 
hereby, authorized to appoint a special committee to be composed of seven 
members for the purpose of conducting an investigation of (1) the extent, char- 
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, 
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American 
propaganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin 
and attack;s the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our 
Constitution, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid 
Congress in any necessary remedial legislation. 

That said special committee, or any subcommittee thereof, is hereby author- 
ized to sit and act during the present Congress at such times and places within 
the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has recessed, or baa 
adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance of such witnesses 
and the production of such books, papers, and documents, by subpena or other- 
wise, and to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas shall be 
issued under the signature of the chairman and shall be served by any person 
designated by him. The chairman of the committee or any member thereof 
may administer oaths to witnesses. Every person who, having been summoned 
as a witness by authority of said committee, or any subcommittee thereof, 
willfully makes default, or who, having appeared, refuses to answer any ques- 
tion pertinent to the investigation heretofore authorized, shall be held to the 
penalties provided by section 102 of the Revised Statutes of the Uinted States 
(U. S. C, title 2, sec. 192). 

[H. Res. 510, Rept. No. 2665, 75th Cong.. 3d sess.] 
RESOLUTION 

Resolved That the expenses of conducting the Investigation authorized by 
H. Res. 282, incurred by the special committee appointed to investigate un- 
American propaganda in the United States and related questions, acting as a 
whole or by subcommittee, not to exceed $25,000, including expenditures for the 

3179 



3180 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

employment of experts, and clerical, stenographic, and otber assistants, shall be 
paid out of the contingent fund of the House on vouchers authorized by such 
committee, signed by the chairman thereof and approved by the Committee on 
Accounts ; and the head of each executive department is hereby requested to 
detail to said special committee such number of legal and expert assistants and 
investigators as said committee may from time to time deem necessary. 

Sec. 2. That the oflficial committee reporters may be used at all hearings 
held in the District of Columbia if not otherwise officially engaged. 



[H. Res. 26, 76th Cong., l.st sess.] 
RESOLUTION 

Resolved, Tliat the Special Committee to Investigate Un-American Propa- 
ganda and activities is authorized to continue the investigation begun under 
autliority of H. Res. 282 of the Seventy-fifth Congress, and for such purposes 
said committee shall have the same power and authority as that conferred upon 
it by said H. Res. 282 of the Seventy-fifth Congress and shall report to the 
House as soon as practicable, but not later than January 3, 1940, the results of 
its investigations, together with its recommendations for necessary legislation. 



[H. Res. 81, 76th Cong., 1st sess.] 
RESOLUTION 

Resolved, That the expenses of conducting the investigation authorized by 
H. Res. 26, incurred by the special committee appointed to investigate un- 
American propaganda in the United States and related questions, acting as a 
whole or by subcommittee, not to exceed $100,000, including exiDenditures for the 
employment of experts, and clerical, stenographic, and other assistants, shall be 
paid out of the contingent fund of the House on vouchers authorized by such 
committee, signed by the chairman thereof and approved by the Committee on 
Accounts, and the amount herein appropriated is to cover all expenditures of 
said committee of every nature in completion of its investigation and filing its 
report not later than January 3, 1940. 

Sec. 2. That the official committee reporters may be used at all hearings held 
in the District of Columbia if not otherwise officially engaged. 

Sec. 3. The head of each executive department is hereby requested to detail 
to said special committee such number of legal and expert assistants and in- 
vestigators as said committee may from time to time deem necessary. 

The Chairman, The committee will be in order. 
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, please. 

TESTIMONY OF DUDLEY PIERREPONT GILBERT, AMERICAN 

NATIONALISTS, INC. 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

The Chairman. Mr. Gilbert, will you make your answers respon- 
sive to the questions, and not volunteer information? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; and if I think of anything that you have for- 
gotten to ask, afterward will you ask it? 

The Chairman. That is all right, surely, tell us the full facts 
with reference to this matter and make your answers responsive. A 
lot of witnesses want to go off on tangents. 

Mr. Whitley. Wliat is your residence address? 

Mr. Gilbert. At the present time, Mayfair House, Park Avenue 
and Sixty-fifth Street, New York City. 

Mr, Whitley. What is your business or occupation, Mr. Gilbert? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3I8I 

Mr. Gilbert. I am in the real-estate business. I haven't been ac- 
tive for several years. My father had some buildings and I help him 
out. My father is an old man, 78 years old. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, several years ago, as I understand it, 
you were connected with an organization known as the American 
Nationalist, Inc.? 

Mr. Gilbert. May I add an "s"? That is quite true; I still hold 
the charter of that corporation. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you state briefly, for the information of the 
committee, the manner in which that was organized, and the officers? 

Mr. Gilbert. That was organized, which the records of the State 
of New York, secretary's office, will show, in April 1935 and a charter 
was granted, and there are now in the possession of the members of 
the committee the reasons and purposes for the foundation of that 
organization. The corporation papers were drawn up by Col. Ed- 
ward C. O'Thomas, an attorney, and also a colonel in the Reserve 
Artillery. He was assisted by the late Paul Thomas Kammerer, in 
the drawing up of the papers. 

There were at that time the following incorporators of the organi- 
zation, in addition to myself : 

Lewis Gouverneur Morris; Pierson Scott, of Charlottesville, Va., 
who also lives in New York; Andrew Bibbey, who also acted as 
treasurer of the organization — he is an elderly gentleman around 
TO — and another man, Clarence Chauncey, whom I forgot, couldn't 
remember; and one, Herbert Bottman, who was at that time presi- 
dent of the New York Produce Exchange. In fairness to INIr. Bott- 
man, after he helped us get started, due to his business he did not 
remain active, and resigned a couple of months later. But he was 
kind enough to help us get started. 

Does that answer, your question ? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Is this a copy of the preamble to the constitution? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; a copy of this I offer in evidence, and the 
original is filed with the Secretary of the State of New York. 

Mr. Whitley. That sets out the purposes of the organization ? 

Mr. Gilbert. . Yes. 

The Chairman. That will be received in evidence. 

(Exhibit No. 1 received in evidence.) 

Mr. Whitley. You were the president of that organization ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And as I understand it, the moving spirit behind 
the organization itself? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is quite right, sir. I take all the blame for 
anything that may have been done wrong or otherwise. 

^Ir. Whitley. What was the source of the finances? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, largely from myself. We had the intention of 
interesting various people, wealthy people, and so forth, to help us 
get started, but nobody was interested, and outside of a few very 
small contributions, which I think you will find some list of in the 
bank files, we never had much funds, and I got a little money from 
my family, and so forth, and kept the thing going along. 

We also were helped in our office rent by the fact that we were in 
a building, partly vacant, and run by an old school friend of mine, 



3182 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Thomas Sperry, New York, and in which he allowed me to have 
an office, about two rooms the size of this, for $75 a month, which is 
very cheap if you know New York rates. 

Mr. Whitley. Wliat was that address? 

Mr. Gilbert. 2 West Forty-fifth Street, in the Putnam Building. 

Mr. Whitley. Wliat year was the organization incorporated? 

Mr. Gilbert. 1935, and I moved into the Putnam Building about 
December 1936, and stayed in it to February. No, it must have been 
the end of 1935, change that to December 1935, until February 1937. 

Mr. Whitley. In February 1937, was the corporation formally 
dissolved, or did it just cease to operate? 

Mr. Gilbert. It just became inactive, and maintained no offices. 

Mr. Whitley. As I understand it, you still have the charter? 

Mr. Gilbert. I still have the charter, and I still have a few people 
interested in it, but they are more or less interested in collecting infor- 
mation, rather than going very much beyond that. 

Mr. Whiti^ey. What was the nature of the activities engaged in by 
the corporation while it was in existence? 

Mr. Gilbert. While we were in existence we tried chiefly to collect 
information, much as this committee is doing now, and also to get 
publicity for that type of thing. I might say that I was not very 
successful in getting publicity. I got quite a little myself, in the 
beginning — you can look in the old newspaper files in the summer of 
1935, ancl you will find I contacted most of the editors throughout the 
country, altogether about 2,500 dailies, and about 7,500 weeklies, bi- 
weeklies, and triweeklies. I sent a copy of what the gentlemen are 
now reading to each of the newspaper editors. I received quite a few 
favorable comments. A great majority did not reply, and a few 
were unpleasant about it. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, reading from volume 3, page 2354 of the 
hearings of the committee's previous session, the witness before the 
committee at that time made reference to your organization, the 
American Nationalist, Inc. 

Mr. Gilbert. With an "s" on it again — I don't want to be mixed up 
with the rival organization who does not have the "s" on the end, and 
has the name "party" after it. 

Mr. Whitley. The reference made there, while it is brief, very 
brief, was in connection with anti-Semitic and antirelig-ious organi- 
zations or groups. Do you consider that was a proper reference or 
fair reference on the part of the witness? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, I don't get the full question. If you wouldn't 
mind putting that question to me before the committee, I will answer 
it. 

Mr. WiiiTi^EY. In other words, was your organization in any way 
engaged in the dissemination of antiracial or antireligious propa- 
ganda ? 

Mr. Gilbert. The answer to that is that it was not, decidedly no. 
In fact, had I been willing to do so, I would have been able to have 
made much greater progress and had considerable funds. 

May I add something to that which is right in line ? I believe the 
coolness of certain members of my own committee at that time was 
due to the fact tliat I did not share with them the ideas that it ought 
to have been a little more anti-Jewish, or something like that. I said, 
"I will accept people, regardless of who they are ; if they are wrong 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3183 

they are wrong, but I won't decide that they are wrong simply 
because they are members of that race." 

Mr. Whitley. During the existence of the corporation, did you 
have any contact with the officials of so-called Fascist organizations 
such as the Silver Shirts, or the Bund? 

Mr. Gilbert. Neither one, but I did have people approach me, and 
I will name the three that I recall. 

A Colonel Sanctuary wrote me, who I found out afterward was 
interested in j)utting out that type of anti-Semitic propaganda, which 
I turned down, and then I was also approached by one Hyatt Dane, 
who came to see me tw^ce and was decidedly pro-German and called 
me three kinds of a fool for not handing my outfit over to some 
friend of his, who, he would not tell me, and I finally almost threw 
him out of the office bodily. 

And there was also John B. Snow who came to see me, who is a 
man that publishes various kinds of literature of that type, wdio in- 
sinuated that I was wasting my time and ought to tie up with some 
good people. In fact, he said he thought all organizations of that 
type ought to be pushed into one big unit, and I believe that is the 
same thing that was attempted in Kansas City in 1937 by one George 
Deatherage. I can't prove that, but I believe that that was the idea 
that they had. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you ever approached by any representatives of 
the Communist group or any other so-called left-wing group? 

Mr. Gilbert. I had people come in my office at different times, and 
threaten me, who I presumed to be left-wingers, and I had things 
sent me through the mail, and telephone conversations, all more or 
less of a threatening nature, and telling mfe to get the hell out of 
the business. 

Mr. Whitley. How do you account for the fact that, or have you 
any explanation for the fact that certain Fascists or Nazi groups 
approached you with reference to cooperative agreement, and none 
of the so-called leftists or left groups made such an approach ? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is quite easily answered. I had gotten enough 
publicity, gentlemen, to show that I was anti-Communist, and these 
people on the other side of the fence, which are more or less covered 
up as being pro-American, thought I would probably be a good per- 
son to pull into their sphere of influence. 

Mr. Whitley. While you were active as head of the American 
Nationalists, Inc., did you meet the leaders of any of these groups, 
such as the Silver Shirts? Have you ever met Pelley? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir; I have not. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you met Fritz Kuhn ? 

Mr, Gilbert. No, sir; I have never even seen him. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you met, or had any dealings, with George 
Deatherage ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I met the man once, and didn't like him. 

Mr. Whitley. During that period did you meet a man named 
James E. Campbell? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Where did you meet him, under what circumstances? 

Mr. Gilbert. I met him for the first time in the city of Newport, 
K. I., in the summer of 1937, when he came there with one George 
Deatherage, and I was introduced by a third party, a resident of 



3184 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Newport, summer resident. I was impressed with Mr. Campbell as 
being fair and square. I did not like Mr. Deatherage. He struck 
me as the typical type of Klan organizer, or the kind of a fellow 
that goes out for that kind of a thing as a business. I never saw 
Deatherage before or afterward, but I saw Campbell at a later period. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they at that time make any proposal to you 
with reference to cooperating or working with your organization? 

Mr. Gilbert. No ; they were under the impression at that time that 
I might have some money to give to something they were organiz- 
ing, and when they found I hadn't, Mr. Deatherage, at least, lost 
all interest in it. In fact, he was there with the idea of collecting' 
money from people in that town, and I might say that I think I 
stopped him from collecting any money because I spoke to most of 
the peo])Ie up there that I thought would give him anything, and 
said, "I don't think you should give anything to this fellow, I think 
it is one of these 'nut' movements." 

Mr. Whitley. You did continue, though, your relationship or con- 
tacts with Mr. Campbell? 

Mr. Gilbert. Mr. Campbell approached me again, later in the win- 
ter, a couple of times, and I was too busy to see him, and in fact 
declined to see him. After I closed my office, I saw him for the 
second time, which must have been toward the spring of 1937. 

Mr. Whitley. At the time you met him, he was associated with, 
and as I imclerstand from your previous statement was working for, 
George Deatherage? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know whether he was working for him or 
not, but I know he was with him then. Wlien I met him the second 
time, he told me he had no longer any contact with him. 

Mr. Whitley. What was Mr. Campbell's connection with the Serv- 
ice, the armed forces? 

Mr. Gilbert. I understand, gentlemen, that Mr. Campbell is a 
captain in the Eeserve Engineers. He did a tour of duty at Fort 
Knox last summer. I believe he is in good standing in the Service. 
He is a war veteran and was wounded overseas in the Second Divi- 
sion. He is of Scotch extraction, and his family originally came to 
South Carolina and moved, in the old covered-wagon days, to the 
Midwest, and he was born in California, 

Mr. Whitley. Will you state for the record, Mr. Gilbert, how 
your association, or contacts, with Mr. Campbell were continued, 
and led up to the present arrangement whereby you are financing 
him in his activities? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; I was impressed — Campbell and I had this 
thing in common, we had both been kicked around, and we both felt 
that we had been taken in by certain people, and rather badly treated, 
and I felt he was sincere from the first meeting with him, and we 
said, "Can't we do something?" I said, "They have kicked me in the 
pants, they have interfered with me, and I can't do anything. Do 
you think together we might accomplish something; something must 
be done along these lines, and I have wasted all this time." And 
he told me that he had wasted a lot of money that he had saved up, 
and that he was almost bankrupt, and that he had ruined himself in 
a business way, and also caused a break in his relations with his wife. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3185 

The Chairman. I don't want to interrupt, but when you say 
"they," I wonder if we could find out what is meant by "they"? 

Mr. Gilbert. He said the leftist opposition had done a job on him 
to that extent. 

The Chairman. That is very general. Did he specify more than 
that? 

Mr. Gilbert. I think if you will get him down here he will tell you 
in plain English what he means. I don't know much of Mr. Camp- 
bell's personal life before that. I am trying to help as much as I can. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, that is the manner in which the association 
started? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is the reason. Two fellows came together, they 
had one thing in common, they were both strongly interested in ex- 
posing these activities, anti-American activities. Secondly, they 
were both war veterans, and thirdly, they had a sort of comradeship 
of that type of those who have been through much the same type 
of experience, and feel they have been more or less hurt and kicked 
around. 

Mr. Whitley. You spoke about being "kicked around" — in what 
way or by whom? 

Mr. Gilbert. If it interests the committee, I will say in detail 
what I think was done to us. In regard to myself, every time that 
I tried to get anywhere with my organization, they let me go so 
far and then something would happen. 

Mr. Whitley. Wlio let you go? 

Mr. Gilbert. The people who I felt w^ere working against me. 
I would get to the point where someone was about ready to give 
me a little money to go on, and go out and hire a publicity man, 
and do some real work, and about the day it was to happen, somebody 
would step in the picture whom I trusted, and believed to be friendly, 
and would kill the whole thing. 

There were two occasions of that. On one occasion I went to see 
a manufacturer who was quite interested, and then he told me very 
frankly that a friend of mine had been over there and had said, "You 
are no damned good" and not to give me a cent, that I was honest, 
but didn't know where the hell I was going. And Campbell had 
had the same experience with him. Campbell had been to many 
people throughout the country, and always about the time he thought 
he would get a little money, they would interfere with him in a 
similar way. 

Mr. Whitley. Who do you mean by "they"; was it individuals 
or groups or representatives of groups? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, we felt this much — it is fantastic to say so — 
but we felt that the left opposition wasn't merely the open type 
that you see, but there was also a subtle, fellow traveler type, that 
posed as not being a leftist, but worked along on the outside of 
organizations like mine, as soon as they got any publicity, and did 
their best to prevent them getting anywhere. You remember that 
in those days there was no committee such as yours in existence, and 
we were trying to get publicity for what you have gotten now. 

Mr. Whitley. So the opposition that you found you would classify 
generally as leftist opposition? 



3186 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Any particular group? 

Mr. Gilbert. That I wasn't able to prove, I only knew that these 
individuals would crop up, would pose as friends for a while, and 
seemed uncannily to torpedo me at the psychological moment where 
I was getting a chance at a little financial help so that we could go 
places and amount to something. And Campbell had had a similar 
experience. He will tell you about it much better than I. He had 
the same experience in Detroit and Chicago and other places in the 
Midwest. They would get him right to the point where he thought 
he was going to accomplish something, and then clamp down on him. 

Mr. Whitley. As I understand it, Mr. Gilbert, it was about this 
time, that is, after you had met Campbell and you had talked things 
over and found that you saw eye to eye on certain problems, that 
you ceased the activity of the corporation and began to work with 
him? 

]Mr. Gilbert. Campbell and I began to work together — I had 
already stopped the corporation work, I closed my office, and you 
can find on Mr. Sperry's files, on February 1, a record of that, and 
I discharged the man that was working for me. 

Mr. Whitley. Of what year? 

Mr. Gilbert. 1937, and I began working with Campbell in the 
spring of that year. I don't know the exact date. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that strictly a personal, two-party arrange- 
ment? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; that was. I didn't give him any money — I had 
been taken in before and I didn't intend to give anybody any money 
until! I was sure they were all right. And we worked along together 
and I don't think we started on any financial basis much before, 
shall we say, June 1937. 

Campbell and I then went out to the Mahoning Valley together, 
to study radical activities during the steel strike out there. 

Mr. Whitley. When did you and Campbell aiTive at a definite 
arrangement or plan whereby you could carry on the work which 
you were interested in? 

Mr. Gilbert. It was one of those things, gentlemen, that starts; 
there wasn't a definite business contract, it started out by Campbell 
telling me that he was pressed for a little money for his wife, and 
that he could do a little if I would pay his traveling expenses, and 
it worked up that way; that w^as the way it started. 

You may think I am very foolish, I admit probably I am, but it 
didn't start on a business basis, but merely as him saying, "My kid 
needs something, and can you give me 50 or 75 bucks?" or "I am 
pressed for alimony from my wife," or, "If you want me to get 
certain information you will help me with this creditor in Evans- 
ville." 

Mr. Whitley. You started financing him approximately in the 
summer of 1937 ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; about the middle of the summer, after he had 
gone out wdth me on a trip and I spent probably 10 days with him 
and figured him to be on the level, because I was really suspicious 
myself in those days. I had had too many unpleasant experiences. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3187 

Mr. Whitley. When did you start furnishing him with informa- 
tion which he was to disseminate? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, in the beginning that was largely clippings 
from newspapers, much as your office has in here now, and things 
that I could pick up, notes at radical meetings, and things of that 

kind. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you pass those on to him? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; and he explained to me that he had headed a 
conmiittee in, I think, gentlemen, it is the Fifth Corps Area Re- 
serve officers, that had an association, either the fifth or sixth, I am 
not sure, and that they had done quite a bit of investigating before 
he had met me, and then the Government had asked them to stop 
their activities, that they did not think they were proper actiyities 
for Reserve officers to pursue, and that he had a few of those friends 
of his still left who wanted to, as individuals, continue doing that 
kind of work unofficially ; whereas they were not allowed, as Reserve 
officers, to do so. 

In fact he claims to have in his possession a copy of an order sent 
out from Washington forbidding him to do any more anti subversive 
activity. I hope he still has it and can show it to you. 

Mr. Whitley. When did you, Mr. Gilbert, first come in contact 
with the informant, or the source of information through which 
you have been receiving the data that you have sent to Campbell in 
recent months, the last year or so? 

Mr. Gilbert. I came in contact with that man back, I should 
judge, as far back as 1934. I have only known him under the name 
of George Rice, and I don't doubt that that is not his right name. 
His means of getting in contact with me has always been — I have 
never sent for him or written to him — he has always called me on 
the phone and said, "Can I see you?" And then he comes to see me. 

Mr. Whitley. And he first contacted you about 1934, before you 
knew Campbell? 

Mr. Gilbert. Before I even had this organization, he contacted 
me back in 1934. 

At that time I had joined an outfit at the suggestion of Mr. Morris, 
whom I mentioned, run by Royal Scott Gulden. I resigned after 2 
months, because I found it was anti-Semitic, and nothing but. I was 
led to join it and paid a dollar, on the ground that it was anticom- 
munistic. I met this George Rice; he used to come to the office at 
different times, and I didn't see him again until after I set up my 
own outfit, and then he came into my office sometimes for information ; 
said he was interested in radical activities, and then later, toward the 
latter part of the time that my office was open, before it closed up, he 
came in two or three times and insisted that he had some vital infor- 
mation that he would like me to give out, and insisted that it came 
from a certain place he was employed at as a waiter. 

Mr. Whitley. What was that place? 

Mr. Gilbert. That was a club in New York, on Sixtieth Street. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the name of the club ? 

Mr. Gilbert. The Harmonic Club. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the address of the club ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know the exact address. It was opposite the 
Metropolitan Club on Sixtieth Street. 



318S UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. WHITI.EY. That is East Sixtieth Street? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. I didn't believe him; I thought he was a 
little bit of a "nut," and when you have an office like I had, and a 
certain amount of publicity, all the "nuts" in the world are going 
to drop in to see you. I suppose I had a hundred a day, almost. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know why he happened to come to you in the 
first place, Mr. Gilbert? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know why he should have come, unless he 
thought that I had an organization that possibly had the facilities to 
give out some information that he wanted to give out. 

Mr. Whitley. Wlien he first got in contact with you in 1934 did 
he tell you that he was employed in the Harmonie Club ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No ; he didn't at that time, sir ; he merely at that time 
said that he was interested in coming to this office on East Fifty- 
seventh Street — Gulden's outfit — and I knew no more about him than 
that he was just one of several people that came in, like I did, to 
look at literature. 

Mr. Whitley. You said Gulden's office was an anti-Semitic organ- 
ization ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I found it out to be at the end of 2 months, and got 
out of it. I felt they were doing no good; they were doing Jew- 
baiting, but no real job on Communists. 

Mr. Whitley. How long has this party whom you know as George 
Rice been employed in that club ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I wouldn't know, sir, he said he had been there some 
time, and when he came to see me at my office and tried to give me 
this information, or shall I say hoped that I would take it — of course, 
he expected a few dollars in return for his trouble, but he has never 
been paid higher than $25 at any time by me — at that time he said he 
was employed there, and to prove it he asked me to come up to 
Sixtieth Street, and I saw him on two different occasions, once when 
he didn't know it, and once when he did it for my benefit, walked 
into the servants' entrance of that club. I could see that because I 
belonged to the Metropolitan Club opposite, and I went and stood 
in the window and looked out and saw him enter it. I didn't see him 
come out again. If he had wanted to fool me he could go in and stay 
a little while and then come out, but I waited fully 5 minutes, and 
he did not come out again. 

Mr. Whitley. Other than that, do you have any other informa- 
tion, or do you know for a fact whether he does or does not work in 
that club? ^ 

Mr. Gilbert. To be very frank with you gentlemen, I know noth- 
intr about it other than what he has told me, and having seen him 
go in twice. 

Mr. Whitley. You have never made any attempt to ever check up 
on him as to his background or who he is ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I only know that he was around those things, and 
the only reason I sentthis literature to Mr. Campbell and his friends, 
was for the ]:)urpose of having them check up on other angles of the 
thing. I did not want publicity for it because I wasn't sure defi- 
nitely. As I told you, it is only the testimony of one man, uncor- 
loborated. 

Mr. Whitlei. When did he bring the first report, supposedly out 
of that club, to you, approximately ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3189 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, I think lie brought a couple to me, as I re- 
member, in the early summer of 1937. I thought they ^vere fantastic 
as hell, and I showed a couple of them to Campbell, and he thought 
they were crazy, and we in fact discouraged the fellow from giving 
us any, A few months later he returned, and then gave me a report 
wdiicli I sent to Campbell, who was then in the West, and certain 
things by that time had happened in the papers to prove his previous 
statements, as I recall it. We then gave him some credit, and 
Camj^bell said that maybe it would be just as good to give this fellow 
10 bucks and see what he has to tell us, that it might lead somewhere. 

So from that date on we have never known when this fellow would 
call up. Sometimes he will go a month, and sometimes 2 weeks, and 
sometimes twice in a week, no definite time that he would appear 
with one of these things, and I w^ould copy it and he would either 
see me destroy it in his, presence, or take it back himself. 

Mr. Whitley. In what manner does he give those reports to you, 
verbally or in writing? 

Mr. Gilbert. In writing. 

Mr. Whitley. Typewriting or longhand? 

Mr. Gilbert. Longhand. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Wliitley, do you want to develop that statement 
that the w^itness made relative to certain information? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, these reports are now in the possession of the 
committee. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you want to develop that? 

Mr. Whitley. We will get him to identify the reports. 

Mr. Thomas. He made the statement that certain things afterward 
happened 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). Certain newspaper articles subsequently 
proved these reports, or at least if they did not prove them, they were 
coincidences. They did appear in the press afterward, so I began to 
take him more seriously than before. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you cite some of those instances? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't remember offhand, but if you have Mr. Camp- 
bell's files and newspaper clippings, you can see that for yourselves 
much better than I could a couple of years back, than I could go in 
and show you. For the later days I could show you how those things 
happened, and if you will give me some of those things to read to the 
committee, I will show you where they did appear in the press 
afterward. 

Mr, Whitley, It appeared to you that he was predicting things 
that later did happen or become public knowledge? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. In the beginning we felt that this fellow might 
be just a lucky guy, that he was just getting something that just so 
happened, but when they began to appear regularly and more fre- 
quently, we began to give him credit for doing an honest job, and 
then I began really paying him for these things; instead of 5 or 10 
bucks, I would pay him 15 or 20 or 25. I didn't want to give him 
any more as I was afraid the fellow might make a racket out of it and 
invent things, and I didn't want to make it on that basis where it 
would be to his advantage financially to invent stuff. 

Mr. Whitley. As I understand the procedure as it has existed, 
and still exists at the present time, he would call you up on the 
telephone and arrange to meet you some place ? 



3190 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You met him and he would give you a longhand 
report ? 

Mr. Gilbert. We usually go into a hotel some place where I can 
sit down at a desk and I write the stuff out, I copy it, and he sees 
that I tear it up, or takes it back. 

Mr. Whitley. You copy his longhand report? 

Mr. Gilbert. Then he usually walks into a lavatory in a hotel 
and flushes it down the toilet after he has torn it up into little bits. 

Mr. Whitley. Those meetings take place at different locations ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. One time he will say, "Meet me at the Wal- 
dorf," or at the Astor. I have met him in the St. Moritz. I have 
met him in so many New York hotels — I met him twice in the Grand 
Central Station at the information desk. 

Mr. Whitley, Do you know how to get in touch with him? 

Mr. Gilbert. No; he has always approached me. 

Mr. WnrrLJiY. You don't know where he lives or how you could 
get in touch with him? 

Mr. Gilbert. No ; I don't know anything about his background. 

The Chairman. What is his nationality? 

Mr. Gilbert. He is an American-born and speaks perfectly good 
English. 

The Chairman. Is he of German descent? 

Mr. Gilbert. I couldn't tell what descent he was. Mr. Wliitley 
asked me if he could be partly Jewish, and I said that if he was it 
would be a very small amount. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you for identification only, Mr. Gilbert, I 
don't want them put in the record, but I do want you to identify 
some of these reports. 

The Chairman. Well, I wonder if it could be agreed that the re- 
ports — could be agreed generally for the record — that the reports 
contain information dealing with revolutionary statements made 
within a club, supposedly made within a club ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. These statements deal with the overthrow of our 
present form of Government? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And the establishment of the Communist state? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; or certainly a different form of government. 

The Chairman. Let the record show in a general way that that 
is the content, in other words, that it comes under our jurisdiction 
because of that fact. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

I would say that a broader word would be, broader than Com- 
munist, would be a leftist state, similar to the recent government in 
Spain. 

Mr. Thomas. What are you going to do with these exhibits, Mr. 
Chairman ? 

The Chairman. I am going to keep them under lock and key. 

While we are waiting on that, I think the committee will agree 
that we don't want to put in the record something that is wholly 
unsupported, nothing but a piece of paper. There is no evidence 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3191 

that there is any truth whatsoever to it, so I don't think we will want 
to put that in the record. All we are interested in is the dissemina- 
tion of it. . 

Mr. Gilbert. That is the reason I didn't try to get any publicity 
for it, because I realized, even if I produced this man before a com- 
mittee, it is one man's testimony, uncorroborated, and a man of that 
status would not be believed, and it wasn't sufficient just to show 
the newspaper clippings afterward, 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, I show you a longhand report, dated 
March 1, 1939, and ask you if you will identify it as one of the 
reports which you sent to' Mr. Campbell for dissemination? 

Mr. GiiJ^ERT. I want to make sure it is all my own handwriting. 
[Examining document.] Yes, sir; these five pages are. 

Mr. Whitley. And this is typical of the manner in which you 
forwarded the reports, and also typical of the type of report? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; it is typical of them. They were sometimes 
much shorter, but rarely any longer. That I would consider a long 

one. 

The Chairman. With reference to the reports, if the gentleman of 
the committee want to read these reports, so that we can agree that 
they are highly inflammatory as a matter of fact, here they are. 

Mr. Gilbert. May I state for your information, if Mr. Whitley 
has not already told you, that I saw this George Rice in the May Day 
parade this year, in the International Workers' Order section. ^ I 
saw him marching in it, and was very much amused to see him 
going in that. He had told me before that he would be in it because, 
he said, he had to cover himself up and appear strongly leftist in 

his ideas. 

May I say also, if I am allowed to, that I have 700 feet of reel of 
that parade which I will be very glad to make a present of the com- 
mittee if they want to use it. 

The Chairman. We would like to get it. Of the last May Day 
parade? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. Mr. Campbell has the films, and we would 
be more than happy to give you that thing, as you can stop it at 
anytime you want and you will be able to pick out people in that 
parade that you would like to see. 

Mr. Thomas. Could you identify this man Eice from the picture? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know whether my camerman got him or not. 
It is very difficult to get everything in that parade. We only had a 
700-foot film for a parade 6 hours long, and I doubt very much if 
he got him. 

Mr. Whitley. Your man Rice was marching with the I. W. O. 
group ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes ; and that group took about an hour and a half to 
pass. I recognized him, and he grinned at me as he went by. 

Mr. Whitley. I will ask the stenographer to identify this report 
as confidential exhibit No. 1. 

(The document referred to was marked as "Confidential 
Exhibit No. 1.") 

Mr. Whitley. Do you believe the material which this informant 
has been furnishing you for the last couple of years ? 

94931— 39— vol. 5 2 



3192 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gilbert. INIay I say that in the beginning I did not believe it. 
After seeing the things proven in the newspapers of the United 
States a hundred times, I did believe it. How could I do otherwise? 

Mr. Whitley. Was his information confirmed that many times, 
would you say? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; I should judge — well, it may not have been 
a hundred, but it certainly is 70 times anyway that it has been con- 
firmed, and I couldn't any more deny what I saw with my own eyes 
in the public press of the United States. 

As an example, this is the kind of things that we got. He had 
information in one of his statements about an order that was to come 
out from the War Department affecting the personnel, the officers 
of the United States Army, and also of the Reserves. It was not 
known in the service at that time, sir. Not only was the order put out 
by the War Department witliin a short period thereafter, but it was 
also printed in the press, in the New York Times, and, I think, in 
the Herald Tribune. That may have been 11 days to 2 weeks ahead 
of time. 

Wlien things like that kept happening and rehappening, I no longer 
could refuse to believe the things that he was giving me, and Camp- 
bell and myself both tried to trip him up several times on things, 
and thought he would make a mistake, but we haven't been able to 
trip him up on anything. 

Mr. Whitley. As I understand it, this informant is known to Mr. 
Campbell ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Mr. Campbell has never met him, no ; I am the only 
one that knows him personally. 

Mr. Whitley. But he knows the source from which you got these 
reports ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; and if he made that statement, that misstate- 
ment out in Tennessee, that you told me he made, it was undoubtedly 
to cover this fellow up. He did not want to give the true picture of 
the thing and gave them some "horse feathers." 

Mr. Whitley. That is, his explanation about this informant pre- 
viously having been a student at a certain imiversity ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes ; I think that was to cover him up and satisfy the 
boys at that meeting. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, when did you first start sending these 
reports to Mr. Campbell ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, Campbell and I looked those over first in the 
summer of 1937, and didn't believe them, and I think toward the end 
of the summex of 1937, as I remember, when we began to believe there 
was some substance and truth to them, I began sending them to Camp- 
bell. 

The purpose of that was not to cause trouble, but feeling that if 
these things were true that these various people that he had who 
helped work with that kind of uncovering un-American activities, 
would be in a position to check on these different things and all work- 
ing together as a voluntary committee, with no money involved, we 
would be able to figure out the truth of these things a great deal more 
so from different sections of the country than we could by just taking 
his report. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3193 

The Chairman. Can you give us, offhand, from memory, a few 
other examples of things that you say he predicted ? 

Mr. Gilbert. What date is that last confidential report? 

Mr. Whitley. March 1. 

Mr. Gilbert. That would probably be the easiest way to convince 

you. 

Well, now, take this thing here 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). Here is one, maybe you will find 
something in that, Mr. Gilbert. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; here is one here that I couldn't believe 

myself. 

Mr. W^HiTLEY. What is the date of that report? 

Mr. Gilbert. Your date on it is Januaiy 25, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What year? 

Mr. Gilbert. 1939. 

It speaks here of arranging for equipment to be bought for the 
French Government, and that the stabilization fund, or something 
of that sort, would be used in helping finance the thing. Shortly 
thereafter, you gentlemen remember, the great excitement about the 
purchase of French airplanes. That is another example. 

Mr. AViiiTLEY. Approximately, from your memory, how long after- 
ward did that become public knowledge in the press? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, I don't know, but you have those exact dates, 
but I should say a week ufterward, at least. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have any instances where the informant's 
information was confirmed relating to information other than War 
Department or military information? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; I think you will find in one of those scores 
information that the Pacific Fleet was to be ordered back to the 
Pacific. 

Mr. Whitley. That is one of the service organizations? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; but I mean he knew that before it was pub- 
lished in tlie papers, and before the Navy knew it. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you remember the details? 

Mr. Gilbert. If you will get that score for me, I will be glad to 
read it to the gentlemen and explain it to them. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall any instances at all where informa- 
tion outside of military or naval information was confirmed, later 
confirmed by developments? 

Mr. Gilbert. I think that in certain of those things there was talk 
about the Neutrality Act, considerably, and then there was another 
thing there; yes, sir — this was on the week of January 25, gentle- 
men, and the informant states: " also said Welles would bait 

the Japs again this week." 

Several days afterward, the latter part of that week, Assistajit 
Secretary of State Welles came out with a very strong statement 
against Japan. 

Mr. Whitley. Any other instances that you recall ? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is what he said, and if you will look up in your 
files, you will find that Mr. Welles did, toward the end of that week, 
make a strong attack on the Japanese. 

Mr. Whitley. Any other instances that you recall? 



3194 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; I think if you will bear with me a little 
while I go through this stuff, I can find many. 
The report of January 25 says : 

was assured by Frank that had permission to interfere in Army 

or Navy any time he so saw tit. ended by saying tliat the generals and 

admirals were of no more importance than the big, stupid gentile uniformed 
doormen that stood outside Jewish-owned apartment houses in New York, and 
like the doormen we can fire them if they do not please us. Watch what 
happens to them this year. 

Shortly after that, you gentlemen in Washington know that Mr. 
interfered in regard to Navy and Army plane secrets in the 



Department, over the heads of those departments. That is a matter 
of record. And you also know that since then an order has gone out 
removing and forcing many officers, high officers of the Army and 
Navy, to take physical examinations, which will retire them long 
before the time they would ordinarily have been retired. That is a 
matter of record, and you can find it better than I can. 

Mr. Whitley. Those are typical examples ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Those are examples. 

The Chairman. May I suggest that you ask what percentage of 
all the predictions he estimates came true ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I will leave that to you, sir, you have checked up 
on it, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Give us your best estimate, Mr. Gilbert, of the per- 
centage of ])redictions that this informant has made that have sub- 
sequently been confirmed ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I should say that up to date they practically all 
have come true. There may be possibly a few things yet that will 
occur in the future. 

Now when I first started getting these reports from! this gentle- 
man we would wait a month or two months before the thing would 
happen. Recently, since last fall, these things have been happening 
anywhere from 10 days, or 4 or 5 days, to 2 weeks at the longest, 
afterward. 

The Chairman. Right there, if I ask to clarify this — are 
there any members of this club who are connected with our Govern- 
ment who would be in a position to get information? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know, only from what that man writes. You 
can judge for yourself. 

The Chairman. Well, generally speaking, does it show that? 

Mr. Gilbert. It shows that certain members of that group, who 
met in that group — I wouldn't say all the members — that certain 
of the group that met in that club were very close in Washington 
to the Government and had access to various departments of the 
Government, were apparently in a position to know things before the 
constitutecl authorities should know, and apparently were ahead of 
you gentlemen in Congress in Imowing things. 

Mr. Thomas. By being close to the Government, do you mean 
that some of them held positions in the Government ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't say that, but they were in a confidential or 
very close to those who held positions. You will find in those reports 
a statement that Mr. Winchell was in a position to walk down to 
Mr. Hoover's office, of the F. B. I., and look things over. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3195 

Mr. Whitley. That is not in the nature of a prediction ? 

Mr. GiLBEET. No, no; that was just said there. You see, they 
are asking me about the contacts of these men in certain things. That 
is nothing against Mr. Hoover, but merely to illustrate that these 
men were in a position to walk into various Government departments, 
and that they had influence from other people that enabled them to 
get around the ordinary red tape which anybody like myself would 
probably have to go through. 

Mr, Thomas. The point I want to develop, and it is not clear in 
my mind, is whether or not some of these people who are mentioned 
by this man Rice, and then rementioned by you in the report, hold 
positions in the Government ? 

]\Ir. Gilbert. Well, I should say Mr, certainly does. 

Mr, Thomas, Never mind the names, but are there some that do 
hold positions? 

Mr, Gilbert, He mentions Colonel , a Reserve officer, 

Mr, Whitley. Answer the question generally, — some of them! do? 

]\Ir. Gilbert. I should say that most of them do not hold Govern- 
ment offices. 

Mr. Whitley. But some of them do? 

Mr. Gilbert. Some of the people mentioned in this thing do hold 
Government offices. 

One man that is mentioned in his reports quite frequently is a 
judge in the New York Supreme Court, and formerly the personal 
attorney of the President years ago, when he was Governor of New 
York, I mean . 

Mr, Whitley, All of the instances that you have cited had tO' do 
with military or naval affairs, or did you mention one having to do 
with neutrality? 

Mr, Gilbert, Yes, sir. 

Mr, Whitley, Apparently the information is along those lines 
premarily ? 

Mr, Gilbert, Apparently these people, asl far as I can judge, if 
you gentlemen will bear with me a minute, as far as I can judge 
from these reports this group of men, we will call them plotters, 
are interested in two things. They are interested in ])lans that are 
laiown as No, 3 and No. 2, Put those down very clearly. 

No. 3 plan is achieving their aims by involving the United States 
in a foreign war, out of which war will come a Soviet form of 
government, as a result of that war. 

They prefer No. 3 plan. It is the easiest, it can be less resisted by 
the people of the United States, and they put the position of every- 
body who might oi^pose them as being unpatriotic. 

"\Yliereas, in plan 2, which apparently they are reluctant to use, 
only if No. 3 does not work, in plan 2 they can definitely use the 
same methods that were attempted in Spain, sir, 

Mr. Whitley. You mentioned two plans? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes ; No. 2 and No, 3. In the earlier of these reports, 
you will find there was a No. 1 plan which was a gradual taking 
over of things, but due to their reverses in the Midwest, and in the 
election last year in the States of Michigan. Wisconsin, and Minne- 
sota, and the defeat of Jerry O'Connell in Montana, they lost hope 
of putting over No, 1 plan. 



3196 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

No. 1 plan contemplated a gradual breakdown of things until they 
got to the point where the American people would have another 
bank holiday, and in desperation they would open up and take over. 
Now they planned a Farmer-Labor Party along those lines, and an- 
other incident that might be interesting is that the May Day parade, 
for the first time this year, left out all reference to the Farmer-Labor 
Party. Previous to that, probably every fourth sign or banner car- 
ried in the parade demanded that, but because of their defeat in 
certain sections of the country, they no longer were interested in 
forming such a party, or didn't think it practical, which bears out 
our information that plan No. 1 was scrapped because the}^ found 
the American people were not reduced to the stage where they could 
put that over, and they could not wait, and therefore had to rely on 
No. 3, which is pushing us into war, or No. 2, which is direct action, 
such as in Spain. 

Mr. VooRHis. I would like to know a little more about what you 
mean by "direct action as in Spain"? 

Mr. Gilbert. I mean, precipitating a direct revolution by the 
Lefts, as was done in Spain. Their method of doing that would 
be a series of strikes first, and perhaps coupled with that an attack on 
Government bonds, which would cause great damage to banks and 
insurance companies, and in the excitement they would grab control 
of communications and stampede the people into a revolution. 

They have here at this present moment a very strong nucleus for 
direct action. They have some 12,000 men who fought in Spain, and 
are damned good soldiers, as good as any we have got in the Regular 
Army ; and they also have in Mexico, and have had filtering into this 
country for the last few months, numerous veterans of the Eed War 
from other countries; and if you will remember it was stated in the 
New York papers less than 2 weeks ago by former Premier Negrin 
of Spain that he was trying to arrange with the Mexican Govern- 
ment to transport 100,000 men, now temporarily quartered in France, 
to Mexico. Also they would have the assistance of certain C. I. O. 
outfits throughout the country. They really could, in communica- 
tions, do a great deal of harm. If you want to investigate the Mari- 
time Union, and certain communistic outfits, you can see that they are 
in a position to really get a big start on us at such a time. It isn't 
hot air, all hot air, by any means. 

Mr. Whitley. The information you have just furnished about 
that situation, is that from your own knowledge or is that furnished 
by your informant? 

Mr. Gilbert. Furnished by him, and we afterwards checked it up 
to the best of our limited ability. 

Mr. Whitlet. Do you gentlemen want to develop that angle any 
further ? 

The Chairman. I think we have enough for the time being. I 
think we ought to go now into the question of Mr. Gilbert and Mr. 
Campbell. 

Mr. Whitley. When you first started sending these reports to 
Campbell, during the summer of 1937, was there any understanding 
betM^een you as to what he was to do with them or how he was to 
use them ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3197 

Mr. Gilbert. He simply said: 

I am iu touch with a number of Reserve officers, and friends of mine that 
will be able to spread these things around to the right people who in turn will 
check up on them ; we will keep it under cover and try to do the best job we 
can of finding out and going to the bottom of this thmg without publicity. 
Publicity is hurtful and will only cause interference, and you will be laughed 
at in any case and told they are fantastic, and therefore, if anything is to be 
done we must go at this thing slowly. 

We thought they were fantastic also in the beginning. 

Mr. Whitley, Eealizing the seriousness of the information con- 
tained in those reports, if it were true, did it occur to you or 
Mr. Campbell that they should be turned over to the proper officials 
so that it could be handled through official channels? 

INIr. Gilbert. Some of the men we worked with, and I will not di- 
vulge their names — you can put me in jail if you want to — are men 
who worked for the G-2 section of the Anny and Navy, and they were 
of the opinion that Avhere operatives in the past had given informa- 
tion of a certain type, they had not received cooperation when it got 
to Washington, and in some cases the reports had been lost, and they 
advised us not to go through the ordinary channels as they figured 
it was either stopped or mislaid or somebody was in a position to put 
the information in what might be called the newspaper morgue ; that 
it wouldn't do any good. And in fact some of them expressed the 
fear of being punished, that men who did it were thought too over- 
zealous in that line and that other men had been punished, and 
people promoted over them. 

With regard to you gentlemen, I will be perfectly frank. I knew 
you gentlemen were in politics and I also believed you didn't yet 
know enough of the inside of this thing. I think you do now, but I 
didn't think you did then know enough of the inside of this thing 
to give the information to you. You would probably last summer 
have gotten me a lot of wrong publicity, or booed me out of the 
room and thrown the information in the wastebasket. Now you know 
so much that you probably wouldn't, but in those days you probably 
would have. 

Mr. Whitley. What did you and Mr. Campbell think woidd be 
accomplished by circulating these reports through the channels 
through which you did? 

Mr. Gilbert. We felt that these people were all in a position — we 
knew first of all that they were either war veterans or Reserve officers, 
people who were beyond any doubt Americans, before they were 
anything else, and we felt that with their cooperation in checking 
up in the local sections of the country, we would eventually be in a 
position to get something that would come before your committee or 
some other committee of Congress that would stand up and not be 
knocked down. You have got us here a little before our time. 

Mr. Whitley. Did it occur to you that if the information was 
incorrect you would be doing a group of people a great injustice 
and a lot of individuals in that group a great injustice? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. I don't think we were doing anybody a great 
injustice, we were checking up on the thing. You might as well say 
that a district attorney, investigating every phase of the case, is doing 
a lot of people an injustice. We were going to go to the bottom of 



3198 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

the thing and if it wasn't true we were going to forget about it, 
and if it was true we were going to see that it got the right publicity 
before the right people, which in this case is yourselves. It wouldn't 
have been in any newspapers, and it hasn't gotten out, and the proof 
that it hasn't is that none of these so-called radical organizations 
have ever gotten a line of our stuff to publish — I mean such as the 
Pelleyites. 

The Chairman. The Silver Shirts? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; if we had been hurting people they would have 
grabbed at that and spread it through the country, and the proof of 
that is tliat none of them have gotten it. 

Mr. Mason. That is a pretty good point, 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, you and Mr. Cam]Dbell apparently took 
very careful precautions to see that this material was not brought to 
the attention of officials or the public at large ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, the public at large; yes, sir. With respect to 
the officials, for the time being we didn't feel we had a right to go to 
court until we had all the evidence ; we didn't want to be laughed out 
of court, and when you have got us here now, it is a little before the 
right time, 

Mr. Whitley. What efforts did you and Mr. Campbell make during 
the 2 years you have been sending this material out to verify it or 
check up on this informant? 

Mr. Gilbert, We couldn't check on this fellow very much. We got 
the proof from the press, as I told you, of what he said, and then 
when things indicated local situations we would write to a fellow in 
Texas, for example, or Missouri, or some other State, and find out 
whether the local situation bore out what we had heard in these reports. 
In several cases they did. One of them was in San Antonio about the 
election which afterward proved Mr. Maverick's reelection. And 
there was another case in Missouri. Our men out in that State proved 
that certain attempts were made to stampede certain ignorant people 
down there — chiefly Negroes from the southern part of the State — - 
into a disturbance which happened the middle of this winter, and 
which had been predicted in one of these reports. 

So we did get cooperation from our State men that that e-xisted to 
that extent. 

Mr. Whitley. It is your understanding that Mr. Campbell has been 
circulating these exclusively through veterans' organizations and 
through Reserve officers' organizations or units ? 

Mr. Gilbert, Yes ; and may I say that he sent them to individuals, 
not organizations, 

Mr, Whitley. Individuals in tliose groups? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. We spoke to high officials of veterans' groups 
and Reserve officers' groups, and determined, because vre did not want 
to hurt any of the veterans' organizations or Reserve officers' asso- 
ciations, that we would send those reports to individuals within those 
organizations, so that no blame would be put on the Veterans of 
Foreign Wars or the American Legion or any other organization. 
We weren't 100 percent sure of this thing yet, we didn't want any- 
body to be blamed for it, and we were doing what any natural, 
common-sense person would do, we were trying to piece this thing 
together and build up something. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3199 

Mr. Thomas. I think there was an answer there that might do 
some harm without development. The witness said he spoke to high 
officials. 

Mr. Gilbert. I didn't, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Then I misunderstood you. 

Mr. Gilbert. Mr. Campbell spoke to certain high officials. 

The Chairman. You don't know that he spoke to them, he told 
you that he did ? 

Mr. Gilbert. He told me that he had, and that when he had done 
this, they said, "We can't have anything to do with it as an official 
organization, but if you gentlemen want to give us the information 
as individuals, we are happy to have it." 

Mr. Whitley. During the period you have been sending these 
reports to Mr. Campbell, since 1937 approximately, how many have 
you sent ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I wouldn't know. I kept no count. When I got one 
I would copy it and would send that. He could tell you that bet- 
ter than I, as to details, he has them all. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, you are out of New York City quite 
a bit? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. In various parts of the country? 

ISIr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And during the periods that you are out of New 
York you still continue to send these reports to Mr. Campbell ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No; I don't when I am out of New York. You will 
find when I am out of New York there are no reports to Mr. 
Campbell. 

Mr. Whitley. Didn't you send in quite a few reports to him while 
you were in Atlantic City this winter? 

]Mr. Gilbert. I had certain things mailed to me at Atlantic City 
by that gentleman. That I forgot to tell you. That was the only 
case where I ever have gotten a thing from him that I have not 
received personally, handed to me by him. He did mail certain 
things to me. 

Mr. Whitley. To the Hotel Haddon Hall ? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is correct. I am sorry I didn't tell you that 
before, but that is the only case I didn't tell you about. 

Mr. Whitley. What did you with the longhand reports that he 
sent you? 

Mr. Gilbert. I tore them i\p. 

Mr. Whitley. After you had copied them in your handwriting? 

ISIr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; that was my agreement with him, and I 
lived up to it honorably. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever send any reports to Campbell while 
you were in Newport, R. L? 

Mr. Gilbert. I sent some from Newport, R. I. 

The gentleman came to Newport by bus on several occasions and 
brought them to me personally. There is a bus from Providence. 
He took a train to Providence and came down by bus. 

The Chairman. You mean Mr. Rice by "gentleman" — let's get the 
record straight. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; Mr. Rice. 



3200 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley, As I understand it, then, Mr. Gilbert, this arrange- 
ment which has existed since the summer of 1937, wherein you re- 
ceived the information, forwarded it to Mr. Campbell, and he in 
turn disseminated it to the sources, has been strictly and entirely 
a two-man arrangement, you and Mr. Campbell? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. No one else has any part in it ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No one else has any part in it, and I don't know the 
names of the men that Campbell sends it to. I couldn't honestly tell 
you who they are. You would have to get that from him. 

Mr. Whitley. And he in turn doesn't know your source of infor- 
mation, Mr. Rice? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is quite true. I would rather have that come 
out of Campbell. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Mr. Campbell has been in 
touch with any organization on a cooperative basis in connection 
with this proposition? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he has ever been in touch with 
Mr. Pelley of the Silver Shirts? 

Mr, Gilbert. I am sure he hasn't. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he has been in touch with Mr. 
Deatherage ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I am sure he hasn't. At one time I was worried about 
Campbell and Deatherage, but I no longer am. I feel that Mr. Camp- 
bell, as well as myself, have the same dislike for these people. 

Mr. Whitley. The fact remains that Mr. Campbell was associated 
with Mr. Deatherage before he went with you? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; because I believe that Deatherage came along 
in those days when we were all very innocent and didn't know our 
way around, and told Campbell he was doing a good work for the 
Reserve officers and Campbell went along with him until he found 
out that he was being fooled. 

Mr. Whitley. Who has furnished the finances which have made 
it possible to carry out this activity, Mr. Gilbert ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I should say I have, but to be more truthful, my 
wife, because I am pretty hard up financially, and she didn't get 
cleaned out as I did in 1932. Her father died and left her some 
money. 

Mr. Whitley. To what extent have you financed Mr. Campbell in 
connection with this proposition? 

Mr. Gilbert. There have been different things, and I will explain 
it to you in detail so that you will know, but please stop me if there 
is anything you don't understand. 

In the beginning I started helping Campbell in just a small way. 
As he became more useful in finding things out and in building up 
this system, we will say, of information, I gave him more money, 
which I think is only just. Campbell then got in some trouble with 
his creditors, which he will tell you about in detail, what they did to 
him in Evansville, Ind., and I have to, for a period of 4 or 5 months, 
give him two or three hundred dollars a month, or otherwise he would 
be declared bankrupt. He is going to pay that back. You laugh at 
me, but I think the man is honest and can be depended on to pay 
me back when he gets on his feet. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3201 

There is another large thmg that your cominittee will probably get 
very excited on seeing. There is a sum of $1,000 in this last month 
of April. I am going to say something that will make you laugh 
at me, but it is true. I have feared so much for the safety — in the 
event o'f an outbreak, a civil war in this country — for my three 
children and wife, and old father and mother, that I had arranged 
through Campbell for the construction in western Kentucky of a 
small house there which my family could go to as a refuge. If we 
never had to use it, we could use it as a hunting lodge, a place for 
fishing. I have got two boys. 

Now, I gave Campbell $1,000 to start the foundation for that 
house. He is a competent engineer and he is now doing the con- 
struction of that, and you can go out on the ground and see where 
the money went to. It is about an hour and a half back of Owens- 
boro, Ky., near Calhoun, and we got the place from another friend 
of ours, a veteran, who has a farm down there, and we are very happy 
that he would let us have it at a nominal amount, that is the land. 
It is in Campbell's name because I, as an eastener, didn't want to 
frighten the natives by suddenly bouncing in from the east coast 
and building a house, and Campbell will be likely to use it if I don't 
have any use for it. 

I expect to put about $4,000 into it. That seems to be ridiculous 
to you, but in the event of trouble, the South and the Middle West 
will be all right, the east and west coasts will be the enemy territory, 
and if I am going to do any fighting for America, I would like to 
put them in the Middle West, or Middle South. 

Mr, Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, do you have any evidence whatever of 
the loans that you have made to Mr. Campbell from time to time? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't have, offhand, but you can check up with 
me; I think the bank still keeps those records, don't they, the banks 
they are cleared through? 

JVIr, Whitley. I mean, did you take a note from him or any 
security of any kind? 

]\Ir. Gilbert. No ; his word was good enough for me. A man that 
you can trust your life to, his word is good enough. 

Mr. Whitley. And you have just advanced him money ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Over a period of time, since 1937, as he needed it? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; I have helped him pay his alimony to his 
wife, and I may help him in an operation on his little ^irl when she 
gets out of school. She is threatened with appendicitis. If that 
is a crime, all right. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, I show you for identification a photo- 
static copy of six checks. All the checks are drawn on the Bank of 
New York, Madison Avenue Branch, signed "Dudley P. Gilbert." 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Whitley. And the checks are dated April 14; three checks 
dated April 17; one dated April 18; and one dated April 24. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. These checks are all made payable to James E. 
Campbell, and the total amount of the six checks is $1,800. Will you 
identify those please? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; I will. That is my writing in all six of 
these checks. Of the $1,800, you see there the $1,000 was for the 



3202 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

starting of the construction of that house ; $200 was a tempoi-ary loan 
I told you about; the other $600 remaining is partly a loan to help 
him out and partly to try to pay expenses he may have in doing 
this work for me. 

Mr. Whitley. Those checks are all dated in April 1939 ? 

Mr. Gilbert. They are, sir; I believe. If you will let me look 
through them, I will confirm that. Yes, sir ; they are. 

(Six checks, marked "Exhibit 2"). 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, do you know whether Mr. Campbell, in 
cashing these checks which he received from you, takes any pre- 
cautions to cover up or to conceal the fact that he is receiving them, 
or the number that he is receiving from you ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Only to this extent. I would imagine under common 
sense that Mr. Campbell doesn't want to attract attention in a small 
city and would not probably put them through the same bank. You 
know small town gossip is sure to cause trouble, and if there is some- 
body around from the leftist side, they can take you up quickly. 
He will tell you that an attempt was made on his life a year ago. He 
has good reason to be careful. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether that attempt on his life, or 
alleged attempt on his life, was in connection with his activities in 
disseminating this information? 

Mr. Gilbert. I think it was his activities in connection with me, 
his antisubversive activities, definitely so. 

At another time he had a rock put through the windshield of his 
car during some labor trouble. He was not going into the labor 
trouble but was merely going through a section, and the crowd held 
him up on a United States highway and told him to get out, and 
he stepped on the gas and said, "As a United States citizen I will go 
through, you are not running the country." 

]Mr. WiiiTLEY. You state,'Mr. Gilbert, that the $1,800 you sent Mr. 
Campbell during the month of April 1939, was unusual in that it was 
considerably more than you usually sent him? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; it will not be unusual for the next few 
months because I have to build that house up. I am not taking any 
chances. After that there will be no thousand dollar item in there. 
Also this $200 is only temporary. He will give you his creditors' 
names in Evansville, and the attempt to force him into bankruptcy 
there, if you want him to. 

Mr. Whitley. What have been the average sums, monthly, which 
you have sent Mr. Campbell since the summer of 193T? 

Mr. Gilbert. Oh, I would say that he didn't get more than a 
couple of hundred dollars. I should say that he has run 5 and 6 
hundred. Some months he has run as low as four. There hasn't 
been any definite amount. 

Mr. Whitley. Would you sav that the average during that period 
has been as high as $500 a month, approximately? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, say $500. I think that is fair. They have 
been, sometimes, a little less or a little more. 

Mr. Whitley. And you say that all of this money is either yours 
or your wife's? 

Mr. Gilbert. It is my wife's chiefly, sir. She is sold on this as 
much as I am, although she doesn't take any part in it. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3203 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you or Mr. Campbell are receiving 
no financing from any outside source? 

Mr. Gilbert. No; I don't enjoy carrying the load and I wish to God 
we would receive something, some help, from the outside. 

Mr. Whitley. The investigation of this matter down in Kentucky 
indicated that some people down there were under the impression that 
Mr. Campbell, at times, at least, was in the possession of a number 
of post-dated checks, signed by you; is that correct? 

Mr. Gilbert. I can explain that. The reason for that is that we 
would get our income only on certain dates; twice a month, for in- 
stance. Now, I would postdate checks. Campbell needed the money, 
and I would give them to him in advance, and he, through intimate 
friends, would be able to borroAv against those. Say there was some 
money coming in to us on the 20th of May. I would postdate the 
thing the 24th, and I would have plenty of time for that thing, if it 
w^ere a day late, to clear the bank. I didn't want them to bounce. In 
the meantime, to convenience Campbell, I would give him that, and 
he had an intimate friend who would loan him the money on that, 
using tliat as security. It was merely a matter of convenience. I 
am not John D. Rockefeller, and I couldn't give him a large sum of 
money. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, the joint account which you and your 
wife maintained at the Bank of New York, Madison Avenue branch, 
reflects an average of two large deposits in that account each month. 
Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; they come from my wife's estate, and you 
will find that the income taxes are duly paid on that. You will find 
a few little things in there by me that were probably given me by my 
father or mother, but I have been busted since 1932. 

Mr. Whitley. Those are routine payments made from the estate? 
Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; and they have all been filed with the income- 
tax department. 

Mr. Whitley. And the amounts are usually deposited by Smith, 
Chambers & Clare ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes ; they are attorneys for us and do all the work for 
the estate. They are at 60 Broadway, New York City. Mr. Clare 
knows all about it. He will show you the source of those things, if 
you want to go down and see the diifferent trust funds. 

The Chairman. Mr. Gilbert, don't you feel that you have been 
taken in by this fellow Campbell ; or do you feel so ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No; I don't feel I have been taken in by Campbell. 
I think he is an honest man, and I think you will be sold on him. I 
may be mistaken and he may be, but at least the man is honest. 

The Chairman. All the names mentioned in these reports which I 
saw happen to be Jews. 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, I believe some of them are not; you will find 
a number that are not. 

The Chairman. You say some of them mentioned in the reports 
are not Jews? 
ISIr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you think that a group of prominent people 
would talk in the manner in which these reports indicate they do in 
a public meeting ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I believe those meetings were not public; even that 
the majority of the membei^ of that club knew nothing of them; that 



3204 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

they would call meetings of 20 or 30 men. It is the hardest place in 
the Avorld to hold a meeting, in a club, gentlemen. If I hold it in my 
apartment, somebody is going to notice it. If I hold it in a large club, 
nolwdy makes any comment whether they are members or guests 
running in or out. 

The Chairman. Do you think these men, occupying the important 
positions as they all appear to do, would make such statements as are 
contained in these reports in the presence of a waiter ? 

Mr. Gilbert. The waiter was not in the room, sir ; he was on guard 
duty outside ; but I believe several other men who could be trusted 

The Chairman (interposing). You mean that Rice reported to 
you that these men met behind closed doors ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; and he and tw^o or three other men, who, he said, 
were out-and-out leftists, were used to keep other people away from 
annoying them and were covered up by acting as waiters to serve 
them when they needed it ; they were waiters if anybody wanted any- 
thing, and, if not, they were guards. 

The Chairman. And they stood outside the door? 

Mr. Gilbert. At the door or close to it. 

The Chairman. And overhead the conversations? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know where we can locate Mr. Rice? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't, sir. 

The Chairman. Would you help us locate Mr. Rice ? 

Mr. Gilbert. If I could, I would. In fact, I might add that I 
tried to help you yesterday. The gentleman did call me up and said 
he had thought he would have something pretty soon again, and 
would I be in town, and I said that I would and spoke to him, and I 
asked him, "Would you be willing to go before a certain committee 
and state things?" And he got very angry at me and accused me of 
betraying his trust, and a few other things. I hope it isn't going to 
scare him off. 

Mr. Thomas. Could you give a description of Mr. Rice ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; he is of medium height and, I should say, 
weighs 160 pounds. I am not a good judge of w-eight. I couldn't 
judge your weight, for instance. His hair is darkish brown, clean 
shaven, and I should judge he was in the late thirties or early forties. 

Mr. Thomas. What is the color of his eyes? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Has he any distinguishing mark on his face; a 
scar or anything? 

Mr. Gilbert. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Thomas. You don't recall the color of his eyes ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't. 

Mr. Thomas. Is he married or single ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Married, I understand. 

Mr. Thomas. Is he a citizen or a native of New York ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I think so ; he is certainly a native American, not 
born abroad. 

Mr. Thomas. Wliat is the color of his hair? 

Mr, Gilbert. I should say it was a very dark brown. 

Mr. Thomas. Has he much hair? 

Mr. Gilbert. Quite a bit. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3205 

Mr. Thomas. How does he part his hair? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, his hair isn't so different from the chairman's, 
the way he parts it. 

Mr. Thomas. He parts it on the right side ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Has he got sideburns? 

Mr. Gilbert. No; he has no sideburns. I did my best to try to 
produce him for you. 

The Chairman. To be perfectly frank with you, you seem to have 
been very frank with the committee here ; of course I am personally 
very much concerned with so many business people, and people who 
have money, being taken in by racketeers. Don't you feel that there 
are a lot of racketeers in this business? 

Mr. Gilbert. What do you mean "this business"? 

The Chairman. I mean in the dissemination of antiracial and anti- 
religious propaganda. Don't you think Sanctuary is a racketeer? 

Mr. Gilbert. I feel, gentlemen, that there are two sources. One of 
them are the out-and-out racket proiDositions, and I think others of 
them are subsidized by the German Government. 

The Chairman. You do? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you have any proof 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). No; I have no proof of that. 

The Chairman. But they approached you? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; not directly, but through these other people 
who, as I testified further back in my testimony, told me I was three 
kinds of a damn fool for not playing ball with them. 

And I also feel this way about it, that this outfit that tried to get 
a name near mine, this Stanley Smith outfit, headed by Stanley 
Smith — and George Andrews Moriarity is associated with them, an 
attorney — they called themselves the American Nationalist Party — 
and I believe those are the people that a former witness before you 
said used a swastika. Those people do meet with German groups 
and have been mixed up with riots in northern New Jersey, with 
German groups, and in New York. I believe they are a German 
set-up. They tried to make me come over with them, and when I 
wouldn't, they made it impossible for me to continue in any way, 
and then they go out and form an organization as nearly as they 
could to mine; that is, using my name as nearly as possible, because 
it is a good name. 

The Chairman. Did they indicate to you that if you went along 
with them you would get German money? 

Mr. Gilbert. They didn't say "German money," but that I 
wouldn't have to worry. 

The Chairman. Did they indicate to you that anti-Semitic propa- 
ganda was one of the most effective 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). They said, "You are altogether too 
damn easy on the Jews," I said, "I don't know any reason why I 
should be any harder on them than anybody, if they are wrong, they 
are wrong, and if they are Jews, that does not necessarily make them 
wrong." 

The Chairman. Do you think that the Jews are behind the Com- 
munist movement ? 



3206 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gilbert. A certain element, to the same extent that a certain 
element of the Germans are behincl the Nazis. 

I believe there are racial fanatics among the Jews that believe 
that they have been badly treated throughout the world, and what 
have they got to lose in a new deal all around, and many of them 
feel that while they have been curtailed in religious freedom in 
Russia 

The Chairman (interposing) . The reason I am asking these ques- 
tions is to get your point of view. I want to get the way your mind 
works along these lines. You don't believe that the majority of 
Jews in this country are in favor of overthrowing our form of Gov- 
ernment, do you? 

Mr. Gilbert. No. 

The Chairman. Do you think men as prominent as the Jews 
mentioned in these reports would want to overthrow this form of 
Government ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I believe so. I believe men as prominent as that 
have shown themselves to be mixed up in international things for 
years back. I think if you get Father Coughlin down here, who 
I am in no way connected with, he will prove to you that some of the 
same members of the banking outfits these men are connected with, 
were involved with the Russian Soviet. 

The Chairman. Did you ever meet Father Coughlin? 

Mr. Gilbert. No ; I never did. I wrote one letter to him. 

The Chairman. Do you know Bob Harris, from New York? 

Mr. Gilbert. No. sir ; I don't. 

The Chairman. Have you ever met with any of these anti-Semitic 
groups ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir; I have avoided them. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know Mr. Campbell was sending out 
certain of Father Coughlin's speeches in the envelopes with this 
material that you sent out to him ? 

Mr. Gilbert. May I answer that question in this way? I think 
that I have cut things out of the Brooklyn Tablet, chiefly, which 
probably that man down in Tennessee thought were Father Cough- 
lin's speeches. The Tablet is the official paper of the diocese of 
Brooklyn. In addition I have found a few things in Father Cough- 
lin's Social Justice, that I thought would interest Mr. Campbell, 
and I took the liberty of cutting them out and sending them to him, 
and I have taken the liberty of asking Mr. Scanlon, the editor of the 
Tablet, to put you on his mailing list. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever been associated with Mr. Camp- 
bell in any business enterprise? 

Mr. Gilbert. Never in my life. 

Mr. Whitley. Tliis is the only association? 

Mr. Gilbert. The only association I ever had with him. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you go down there with him in June 1938, 
when that office was opened in Owensboro ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I went with him to Louisville first and he figured 
on an office there. He figured he wanted to open a little business and 
he figured he wanted to do some of our work on the side, both 
things together, and we figured that there was quite a foreign 
element in Louisville, more so than you would think, and that there 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3207 

might be certain people of a leftist nature, and it would be safer for 
him to go to a real American town like Owensboro. He could travel 
around from there and have a secretary at Owensboro. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you go to Owensboro with him^ 

Mr. Gilbert. I did. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know- the name under which he was open- 
ing the office? 

Mr. Gilbert. The Business Engineering Associates. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it your understanding or belief that he has ac- 
tually been engaged in any activities down there other than the dis- 
semination of this material ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; he has told me, he said, "I really have sev- 
eral bona fide clients, and I am not altogether working for you. I 
don't know what is going to materialize from them; I have ap- 
proached a man for work m Indianapolis, and another one in Cleve- 
land." He said, "I hope to do a little business and sustain myself so 
that I won't be dependent on you." 

Mr. Whitley. Did you move any of the files or records of the 
American Nationalists, Inc., dowai to Owensboro when this office 
was opened? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you turn over any of those files or records to 
Mr. Campbell at any time? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir; I destroyed most of them when we closed 
shop. I have a few left that I told you about when you and your 
assistant were in New York, that we would hunt for and get out. 

Mr. Whitley. You still have the charter of the corporation? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; that is in the place I told you you would find 
them, and the original incoi-poration papers, and a list of a certain 
number of legal meetings when we set up the idea, and I told you I 
might have some newspaper clippings and possibly replies from dif- 
ferent editors to things I sent out. 

Mr. Whitley. Is the present activity in which you and Mr. Camp- 
bell are engaged in any way a continuation of the actiivties of the 
inactive corporation? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; I would say that it w^as carrying out the 
same thing in a more practical way. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, the plan that you tried to operate 
the corporation under didn't w^ork, so then you are trying to accom- 
plish the same purpose through this new set-up ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; without perhaps brass-band tactics which 
didn't go over. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you in the service during the war? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What was your rank? 

Mr. Gilbert. Buck private. I went in the Army when I w-as 18, 
went down to the Mexican border at the time of the so-called w-ar 
with Mexico, and went in the One Hundred and Seventh Infantry in 
the World War, and there is my American Legion card [indi- 
cating] . 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have any overseas duty? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir; I was sick and didn't get over. I had para- 
typhoid and also pneumonia, and I was underweight, and they 

94931— 39— VOL 5 3 



3208 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

didn't send me over for that reason. In fact, I was under the draft 
age. 

Mr. Whitley. You didn't have a commission? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir; I was under 21. I am a life member of the 
Sons of the Kevohition of the State of New York. 

Mr. Thomas. When did you leave the One Hundred and Seventh? 

Mr. Gilbert. Just before they went overseas. 

Mr. Thomas. And you went from the One Hundred and Seventh 
to where? 

Mr. Gilbert. I took a physical-disability discharge for a few 
months and then went back into what was known as the First Pro- 
visional Infantry, organized at New York City for people who were 
going to college and for men like myself who had been discharged 
from different outfits. Then a group of about 20 men were picked 
to go to Camp Lewis to go on the expedition to Vladivostok. Natu- 
rally the Armistice stopped that, and we were kept in New York 
until discharged. I think altogether I spent nearly 3 years in the 
service. 

The Chairman. How many other men of your acquaintance are 
doing similar work, work similar to this? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know, sir. 

The Chairman. You don't know of a few men there in New York 
who have embraced the same idea you have? 

Mr. Gilbert. I kept away from them because I found out they 
were all either fanatics on the Jewish proposition, or they were con- 
nected with outfits I didn't quite approve of. 

The Chairman. But you do know of businessmen in New York 
who are contributing funds? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know of any such men, but I knew of men 
re})resented in the thing, and I didn't like their point of view. 

The Chairman. Don't you know that your plan has been adopted 
by others and tliey have men stationed in different parts of the coun- 
try disseminating information? 

Mr. Gilbert. No ; I did not know^ that. I believe there are organ- 
izations that follow the original idea, but I think they are more or 
less humbug on collecting information. Those fellows cut out clip- 
pings from papers, and then send that out to a sucker list soliciting 
contributions. If I had stooped to methods like that I could have 
made a go of it. 

Mr. VooRHis. How can you be sure, Mr. Gilbert, where your infor- 
mation is really coming from ? I mean. How can you be certain that 
Mr. Rice gets his information from these club meetings? 

Mr. Gilbert. If you want to put me on an absolute basis if you are 
going to talk law you know and I know that a witness uncorrobo- 
rated, is useless — won't stand up in a court of law. You know also 
that the ordinary press clippings would not be sufficient, and that 
is the reason I have kept in the background and not tried to put 
something out. I wanted to have it stand up. 

Mr. VooRHis. But the fact of the matter' is that this stuff has gone 
out ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Only to our own group who are trying to compare 
the information they get with what is happening in their own States, 
and I have given two names to the chairman of where they did check 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3209 

back in Texas and Missouri and show what did happen, show that 
it actually did happen. 

Mr. Dempsey. Did you send any of this information out until you 
were convinced by things occurring^ that it was right ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No; we didn't. Campbell and I turned the thing 
down ; we kept it, but we didn't send it out ; we thought it was too 
fantastic at first. 

Mr. Dempsey. And afterward, you were convinced? 

Mr. GiLiiERT. Afterward, we were convinced by newspapers. 

Mr. Dempsey. You say "newspapers"? 

Mr. Gilbert. Clippings. 

Mr. Dempsey. Giving the information that had been predicted ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. In the beginning, those results were probably 
a month to 2 months afterward. More recently they have been very 
quickly afterward. 

The' Chairman. Of course, I know you are going to be absolutely 
frank with us, you are under oath here, are you absolutely positive 
that no one has ever contributed any money to you or to your wife, 
or that any of the funds from any outside source have ever gone 
into this work of Campbell and you? 

Mr. Gilbert. You can look up my wife's account and see where 
the money comes from, see for yourself. 

The Chairman. You haven't accepted one dollor from any other 
source ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Not one. 

The Chairman. And she hasn't accepted a dollar? 

Mr. Gilbert. No. 

The Chairman. And there never has been any promise from 
anyone to reimburse you? 

Mr. Gilbert. No; and we have never asked anybody for a red 
cent in regard to this thing of Campbell and myself. 

The Chairman. You really fear a revolution in this country ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes ; if you want me to be perfectly honest with you, 
I fear a revolution in this country before snow flies. That is why I 
am working like hell on this house down in Kentucky. I feel they 
are going to fall down on putting us into a World War, because I 
feel there are too many good Americans in Congress to let them get 
away with it. I feel that when they find themselves licked on that 
score that they are going to try to pull direct action, and I think they 
are doing it now in these various strikes and things. I think they 
are tests of what they are going to pull later on. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever forward to Mr. Campbell for dis- 
semination any data concerning activities of Fascists or Nazi groups ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No; before — or because I can frankly say that they 
don't amount to a hill of beans in my estimation, and I think have 
been pretty well covered by your committee. Let me tell you what 
I think of both those groups. 

I have already told you what I thought of the so-called phony 
patriotic societies from investigation that I made of Fascist activities, 
I feel that they are localized to small groups of Italians, who more or 
less just want to have a spaghetti party on Columbus Day, acting like 
a lot of damn fools, running around with their hands in the air 
around Columbus Circle. I don't take them seriously. 



3210 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

I take the Germans seriously, but I believe the German bunds are 
now about where the Communist Party was in 1922; they are not a 
menace. If we had taken hold of communism then, there wouldn't 
be any. I think we could put them out of business in a week, the 
German bunds ; I don't think they are any great menace and I think 
probably the leftists would like to have them continue so they would 
have something to yell about and take the curse off themselves. 
^Vlien you go after them they can say, "Wliy not catch the little boy 
down there, he is more dangerous than we are?" 

The Chairman. In other words, we are trying to determine the 
difference between sincerity in a man. To be frank, the thing that 
is revolving in my mind is to determine whether you are absolutely 
sincere about this. You are doing it through patriotic motives? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; I may be a patriotic fool, but I believe it. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Gilbert, has your investigation brought you in 
contact with an organization in New York City called the New York 
Patriots, Inc. ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No ; but I received literature from those people. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know of a man by the name of Allen Zoll ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I have reason to believe that Mr. Zoll is a complete 
humbug, and Mr. Campbell will tell you a lot about him. 

The Chairman. Have you talked to as many people in New York 
who feel the same way about this that you do ? 

Mr. Gilbert. When I first started in this thing, I used to do a lot 
of talking. I learned through sad experience that it is bad to talk. 
I now keep my mouth shut. 

The Chairman. What do you hear among members of your club 
and others, with reference to this Jewish question ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I find that among the New Yorkers of that class of 
people they are inclined to play it down and say it is "boloney," and 
hot air being exported from Europe. If you want any anti-Jewish 
feeling, you have got to go among the masses to get it, I think. I 
don't think the so-called wealthy people believe it. 

Mr. Dempsey. What about the masses in New York City? 

Mr. Gilbert. I think the massesi are pretty riled up about it, and 
I think the reason, whether it is unfair or otherwise to Jews, is that 
the Jews are taking the lead in these radical demonstrations and for 
that reason they resent it, and are beginning to be very bitter. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you belong to any organizations or groups other 
than purely social? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes ; I am a member of the Elks, I am not probably 
in very good standing on my dues; I belong to the Knights of 
Columbus and the Holy Name Society. I belong to the Center Club, 
which is a club for Catholic college men. I don't belong to anything 
outside the American Legion and the Sons of the Revolution, and the 
Society of Colonial Wars. I happened to have an ancestor in the 
French and Indian wars which entitled me to belong to that. 

The Chairman. Are you acquainted with General Moseley? 

Mr. Gilbert. I have never met him. Mr. Campbell served under 
him. 

Mr. Thomas, You mentioned the newspaper called the Tablet ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; it has a circulation of 100,000, and the name 
of the editor is Patrick Scanlon, and he would be more than delighted 
to come here at any time. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3211 

Mr. Thomas. The reason I asked that question is that I Avas afraid 
there might be some misunderstanding in the record. Isn't it your 
belief that the Brooklyn Tablet is doing a very good job m sup- 
pressing or bringing to the attention of the people these subversive 
activities? 

Mr. Gilbert. I believe they are doing a mighty good job, and I 
believe they are perfectly impartial and fair. They have done a 
pretty good job on the Nazis as well. 

]\Ir. Dempsey. The Brooklyn Tablet didn't start, having in mmd 
having anything to do with people who were doing all these subver- 
sive things, it is a regular religious newspaper. 

Mr. Gilbert. That is quite right. 

Mr. Dempsey. And is gotten out and sponsored by the Catholic 
Church, Diocese of Brooklyn. 

Mr. Gilbert. The Bishop of Brooklyn is responsible for the paper. 

Mr. Thomas. The reason I brought that up is that I was afraid, 
from the earlier testimony, that someone might get the impression 
that it was associated or in any way connected with Father Coughlin. 
It is absolutely on its own. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. I merely brought that in because I think this 
man in Kentucky or Tennessee, what he thought were Coughlin's 
clippings were the Brooklyn Tablet's which I sent to Campbell. 
I really send him things from Coughlin's paper. 

Mr. Thomas. It is my belief that the Tablet does a very good job. 

The Chairman. Are there any other questions, gentlemen? 

(Discussion off the record.) 

The Chairman. This involves the question of where your wife's 
money comes from, and what State it comes from, and how much. 
I don't know that at this stage of the proceeding we care to go 
into that. 

Mr. Gilbert. You can go to the attorney's office and he can read 
that to you, and you can go to the income-tax office. 

The Chairman. Unless there is some evidence that the witness 
is getting money from some other source, we don't want to pry into 
anybody's personal affairs. 

Mr. Thomas. "What is the name of your attorney? 

Mr. Gilbert. James Leo Clare, of Smith, Chambers & Clare. 

Mr. Voorhis. I would like to know briefly what you meant by some- 
thing happening in San Antonio in connection with Maury Maverick's 
election ? 

Mr. Gilbert. In these reports we heard of the activities these people 
were carrying on to put Maverick over, and some of the methods they 
were using to divide the opposition to make sure he got in, 

Mr. Voorhis. You mean that you believe that this action was 
steered — by whom? 

Mr. Gilbert. I believe that this gToup up in New York were push- 
ing that election of INIaverick to put him back in there. I believe that 
they helped financially somewhat in that, and I believe that they also, 
from the reports sent Mr. Heywood Broun down there. Heywood 
Broun admits in his article in the papers that he was in San Antonio 
and his delight with Maverick's return, and it is a matter of record 
that he wrote several articles on the horrible conditions in San Antonio 
under the former mayor. He spent considerable time down there, 



3212 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

and you know he is tied up with the left-wing element. That, to me, 
is sufficient proof. 

The Chairman. We will recess until 2 o'clock. 

(Whereui^on, at 12 o'clock noon, a recess was taken until 2 p. m. of 
the same day.) 

AFTEENOON SESSION 

(The hearing was resumed at 2 p. m., at conclusion of the recess.) 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 
Mr. Whitley. Will you take the stand, Mr. Cooke ? 

TESTIMONY OF JAMES R COOKE, DEPARTMENT COMMANDER, 
AMERICAN LEGION, STATE OF TENNESSEE 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Cooke, your full name is James F. Cooke ? 

Mr. CooKE. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your residence address, Mr. Cooke ? 

Mr. CooKE. Athens, Tenn. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your business or profession, Mr. Cooke? 

Mr. CooKE. Mamifacturer. 

Mr. Whitley. Your manufacturing business is in Athens ? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Wliat is your connection with the American Legion ? 

Mr. Cooke. At tlie present time I am department commander. De- 
partment of Tennessee. 

Mr. Whitley. Department commander of the State of Tennessee? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. How long have you held that position ? 

Mr. CooKE. Since last August; August 1938. 

Mr. Whitley. In connection with your duties as department com- 
mander, have you heard of or come in contact with a man named 
James E. Campbell ? 

Mr. CooKE. I know a J. E. Campbell; I don't know his first name. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you explain to the committee your contact 
with him, and your relations with him, Mr. Cooke ? 

Mr. CoOKE. Some time — I have forgotten whether it was in De- 
cember or January, December of last year or January of this year — 
I received what was supposed to be a copy of a report of a meeting 
of some organization in New York City. I had never heard of this 
man Campbell before. I didn't pay much attention to the first two 
or three reports that I had received from him, they were just type- 
written copies. But after a while — oh, I guess I received probably 
four or five of these reports, I didn't pay much attention to them to 
start with — but after a while I noticed, just happened to notice in 
the paper an event that had happened that had been mentioned in 
one of these reports. And then I came to read them a little more 
closely and paid a little more attention to them and there were several 
things happened after I had received these that had been jjredicted 
in these reports. So then I began to kind of sit up and take notice 
of things, and tried to establish some personal contact with Campbell. 
We made dates on several different occasions, but something hap- 
pened, either he was unable to come or I was not able to be there 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3213 

at the appointed time. So I never met him until April 17 of this 
year, I guess it was. 

This telegram is dated April 12 that I have here, and we met at 
the Hermitage Hotel in Nashville, Tenn., on a Saturday monung, 
the Saturday morning following, it was Saturday following April 12. 

Mr. Whitley. 1939? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes, sir. I had, previous to this meetnig, received a 
letter from him asking me what I was going to do about all these 
reports that he had been sending me, I wrote him and told him I 
wasn't going to do anything at all at the time, because I didn't know 
him, didn't know anything of his background, didn't know anything 
about his responsibility, nor did I know the origin of these reports 
or anything about it, and that I couldn't afford to stick my neck out 
on just such things as this because to me they weren't worth the paper 
they were written on as far as I understood evidence. 

But I told him that I would like to meet him and talk to him, and if 
he cared to do so, he could tell me where these things originated. And 
this meeting was the result of that letter that I wrote him. 

A day or two before I was to go to Nashville — that is, the day or two 
before the 15th of April— I was in Chattanooga, Tenn., and I met Mr. 
(Committee investigator), and in the course of our conversation I 
mentioned having these papers in my possession, and that I was to 
meet this man in Nashville the following Saturday, and he said he 
would like to be present at the meeting. So I told him it was all right 
with me. 

So we met Mr. Campbell that morning in my room at the hotel. He 
proceeded to tell me then where these reports came from. 

Mr. Whitley. That was in the presence of the investigator? 

Mr. CooKE. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What was his explanation concerning the source of 
the reports, Mr. Cooke? 

Mr. CooKE. Do you mean as to where he got them ? 

Mr. Whitley. As to where he got them and where the information 
contained in the reports came from? 

Mr. CooKE. That was one of the first things that I asked liim after 
he had given me a partial history of himself, you know, trying to 
establish some sort of a background for himself. It was rather a long 
story that he told. Do you want me to go into the details? 

Mr. Whitley. If you can indicate as briefly as possible, to cover the 
source of it, that will be all right. 

Mr. CooKE. He told me that he was an officer in the United States 
Army Reserve 

Mr. Mason (interposing). We don't want all tliat background. 

Mr. Cooke. Well, I am going to lead up to that — and that was his 
connection with the thing. It seems that his tale was to this effect, at 
any rate. I am not quoting him verbatim or anything, but there was a 
3^oung man in the R. O. T. C. unit at the College of the City of New 
York came to the lieutenant colonel who is in charge of that unit one 
day and asked him what they would do to him if he killed four or five 
of those "damn Jew Communists" out there, meaning, I suppose, out 
there on the ground. Probably they were falling in for drill, or what- 
ever it was. The colonel kind of laughed and said, "What do you 
mean?" 



3214 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

He said, "I mean it ; I am serious." He said, "I am in earnest." And 
the lieutenant colonel said, "Well, they do hang people occasionally 
for things like that — what do you mean ?" 

And this boy is supposed to have replied to him, saying, "My daddy 
was killed in France, and I am getting damned tired of having his 
memory insulted, the United States of America insulted, and the 
United States Government insulted." 

So, to make a long story short, this colonel talked to this boy and 
the boy seems to have had more or less of a Semitic appearance, dark 
complexioned. This boy had stated previously that he was working 
for a commission in the Officers' Reserve Corps, that he had been 
turned down for West Point, but he wanted to follow in the footsteps 
of his daddy. 

So this colonel said then, "You are going to get your commission, 
but you are going to leave this school cussing me, cussing the 
R. O. T. C, cussing the United States Government, and everybody 
connected with it." 

He went ahead, got his commission, as I understand it, and then in 
some way it was manipulated around so that he got a position, or 
became a member — I don't know which — but I believe it was a posi- 
tion in an organization in New York which was known as the Har- 
monic Club. He told me the address of that club, but all I remember 
was that it was on Sixth Avenue, I don't remember the number; and 
that he had worked himself into the confidence of the head of this 
organization so that he was able to attend private meetings out at 
individual homes, and that he had gone to night school, studied short- 
hand, and would make notes of the speeches and conversations that 
he would hear, both in the public hearings — that is down at the club, 
and also out at the private meetings, and that that was the origin of 
these reports. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Cooke, as I understand it, those reports were 
sent to you without any solicitation whatever on your part? 

Mr. CooKE. Absolutely. I never heard of this man before or any- 
thing about him. 

Mr. Whitley. For the purposes of identification — we don't want to 
put these in the record — I show you 13 original envelopes addressed 
to Mr. James F. Cook, Athens, Tenn., containing material, type- 
written material, and also material clipped out of newspapers, and 
ask you if you will identify those as the envelopes which were mailed 
to you by Campbell ? 

Mr. Cooke. Well, now, there are two here that weren't, these two. 
All of these envelopes without a return address in the corner, upper 
left-hand corner, were received from Cam]:)bell. 

Mr. Whitley. Those envelopes are all postmarked "Owensboro, 
Ky."? 

Mr. Cooke. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. And they were received by you over what period of 
time, approximately ? 

Mr. Cooke. Well, to be on the safe side, I would say from the first 
of this year up to the present, 

Mr. Whitley. From the first of this year ? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes; I don't remember just exactly the time. 

Mr. Whitley. That is approximately. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3215 

Mr. Cooke. I don't remember the exact time I commenced to receive 
them. 

Now, these two here [indicating] are from the department adjutant 
of the American Legion in Tennessee. It seems that Campbell sent 
these same things to him, but he just forwarded them to me, so these 
may be duplicates of some of the things that are in there [indicating]. 

The Chairman. We will mark all of those. We are not receiving 
them in evidence but we will mark them as exhibits. 

Mr. Whitley. Confidential exhibit No. 2 — and we'll keep them all 
together in a large envelope. 

(The envelopes referred to were marked "Confidential Exhibit 
No. 2.") 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Cooke, earlier in your testimony you stated that 
y^ou paid very little attention to these reports at first. 

Mr. CooiiE. Yes. 

INIr. Whitley. But that when you noticed that certain events which 
had been referred to in the reports were later confirmed in the pub- 
lic press, you began to become more curious about them and take 
more interest in them? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall the particular event that attracted 
your attention? 

Mr. Cooke. One was — now, I am not sure that this particular 
report that I am referring to, well I know it isn't in the papers 
that I brought with me today, it may be that the investigator has 
it, that it is among the papers that I turned over to the investigator 
some 4 weeks ago — one was that there had been a sum of money sent 
to Leon Trotsky in Mexico City. If I remember right it was some- 
thing like $50,000, sent to him to be used by him as he saw fit. 

A week or so later it just happened to come to my notice in one 
of the daily papers that I get, just a little paragraph, maybe about 
2 inches, stating that Trotsky had admitted spending that same 
amount of money, whatever it was, in the elections in Chile, South 
America. 

Then there was another report there regarding the French mis- 
sion that came to this country to buy airplanes, which wasn't dis- 
closed until the crash of the airplane in Los Angeles, as you will 
remember. That was mentioned in the report prior to the time of 
that crash. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Did those things, did you just notice those yourself over a period 
of time, or did he send in the material, pointing out the coincidence 
to you? 

Mr. Cooke. No; I never received anything from him except just 
this kind of stuff. 

Mr. Whitley. The envelopes that he transmitted the typewritten 
reports or carbon copies of typewritten reports to you in, did he in- 
clude any other material in those envelopes ? 

Mr. Cooke. Just newspaper clippings. I didn't read the clip- 
pings, because most of them were, as I recall, speeches by Father 
'Coughlin. 

Mr. Whitley. What was your impression, Mr. Cooke, after you 
had met 



3216 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas (interposing). May I ask a question there? 

Why do you say they were "speeches by Father Coughlin"? 

Mr. CooKE. That is what the paper said, the clippings said. 

Mr. Thomas. The clipping itself says that it was a speech by 
Father Coughlin? 

Mr. CooKE. I think so. 

Mr. Thomas. Not a newspaper report 

The Chairman (interposing). They were newspaper reports of 
speeches made by Father Coughlin, is that right? 

Mr. Cooke. That is right. I don't know what paper they were 
from, because the date lines have all been cut off. I haven't looked 
at some of them at all, because I wasn't interested in them. 

Mr. Whitley. The date line identifying the paper was cut off in 
each instance? 

]Mr. CooKE. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. So there is no way of telling what papers these clip- 
pings were from? 

Mr. CooKE. No ; not that I know of. 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. Cooke, look at the bottom of the paper you have 
in your hand on the other side — does that indicate the newspaper ? 

Mr. CooKE. No ; this is just an advertisement. 

The Chairman. They purposely cut that out. 

Mr. Cooke. I think you will find in one of those somewhere, I don't 
know 

The Chairman (interposing). What is the materiality of what 
paper it is? 

Mr. Thomas. I just want to, if I can, bring it out in connection with 
what another witness has said. 

The Chairman. About the Brooklyn Tablet? 

Mr. Thomas. Yes. You rememl^er the previous witness said that 
these articles were taken from the Brooklyn Tablet. This is not from 
the Brooklyn Tablet. That is the reason I brought that out. 

Mr. Cooke. I was just going to say that I believe there is one little 
clipping in the bunch somewhere, that on the back of the clipping it 
does say, "Tablet." What it is, I don't know. 

The Chairman. I don't think that is material what paper it is 
printed in. A paper has the right to print anybody's speech. 

Mr. Thomas. Yes. But the other witness said that these newspaper 
clippings were from the Brooklyn Tablet. Apparently they are not, 
at least all, from the Brooklyn Tablet. 

The Chairman. That is not the printing of the Brooklyn Tablet. 

Let's proceed, gentlemen. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Cooke, after you had talked to Mr. Campbell in 
Nashville, what was your impression then concerning the authenticity 
of the material at least that he had been sending out — did he convince 
you that it was correct or accurate ? 

Mr. Cooke. In some ways he did, and in other ways I am not 
convinced yet that it is accurate. 

Mr. Whitley. He did try to con\ance you, though? 

Mr. CooKE. I told him this, I said, "It would be hard for you to make 
me believe that people whose names are mentioned in these reports, 
those men, would put such things as this down in black and white," I 
said, "They have got sense and they are not going to do that; you can't 
make me believe that they will do that." 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3217 

He said, "No ; it is fantastic ; and I wouldn't believe it myself if it 
were not for the fact that I know the origin of the reports and know 
them to be authentic." 

Mr. Whitley. Did he indicate in his conversation with you that day 
whether he was working alone or whether he was working with an 
organization or a group ? 

Iklr. Cooke. I never could figure out just exactly wdiat his connec- 
tions were. He was connected with somebody, but just what I never 
was able to figure out. I don't know just what he was doing, but he 
suggested to me that he might throw some business my way in the 
manufacture of boxes, because he and General Moseley were working 
together on a prophylactic for the Army and also for the civilians, 
and I do know that he arranged the speaking date for General Moseley 
in Nashville some time in the latter part of February, I believe it was. 
Now, what his connections were with General Moseley, I don't know. 

JNIr. Whitley. Did he make any suggestions as to what you should 
do with or about this information he was sending you? 

Mr, CooKE. No ; not particularly. As he was leaving my room there 
in Nashville that day, I walked to the elevator with him, just the two 
of us, and he said, "What do you think about it, Cooke ?" 

"Well," I said, "if these things are true, as you say they are, I think 
they should be made public and let the people know just what is going 
on, it shouldn't go on any further." 

He said, "Well, you think the same way I do," he said, "I will write 
you about it later." 

Mv. Whitley. He indicated he thought they should be made public? 
]Mr. CooKE. He said that we think along the same lines. 
Mr. Whitley. Did he explain or state whether he had brought the 
material or the information in those reports to the attention of the 
proper authorities ? 
]\Ir. CooKE. No ; not to me. 

Mr. Whitley. During your conversation with Mr. Cooke, or rather 
Mr. Campbell, on that occasion, did he indicate in his conversation any 
racial or religious prejudices? 

Mr. Cooke. Well, along racial lines, in a vagiie sort of a way, you 
could tell that he was a little bit prejudiced against the Jews. He told 
me some things, not in connection with these reports, but just in a 
general conversation, he told me of some activities that the Jews had 
been engaged in such as caring for a certain number of refugees being 
sent over, and some of these big department stores firing Americans 
and hiring Jews, and things of tJiat sort that would more or less indi- 
cate to me at any rate that he wouldn't care about sleeping with any 
of them. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he say anything about the extent 

The Chairman (interposing). Let that type of testimony — what 
is the purpose of that ? That doesn't necessarily show that a man is 
prejudiced from what you said. 

ISlr. Cooke. No; there was no definite prejudice expressed or any- 
thing like that. 

The Chairman. Of course, a lot of people are opposed to refugees 
coming here. 

Mr. Mason. It wasn't so much the words he used as the inference 
he left? 

Mr. Cooke. That is right. 



3218 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. Of course, there might be some other people living in 
the South that wouldn't care to sleep with them either. 

Mr. CooKE. Yes; several. 

Mr. Whitl,ey. On the occasion of this meeting, Mr, Cooke, with 
Campbell, Avho else was present beside yourself and the investigator 
for the committee ? 

Mr. CooKE. Well, part of the time there were two other prominent 
members of the Legion, the chairman of our Americanism committee, 
Bascom Jones, and Leonard Sisk, past department commander. 

Mr. Whitley. Was the identity of the committee investigator 
known during that conversation to Mr. Campbell ? 

Mr. CooKE. I don't think so ; I am pretty sure it wasn't. I intro- 
duced him as Mr. Roberts, and told him he was a friend of mine, and 
he could speak as freely before him as he could to me. 

Mr. Whitley. That is all the questions I had in mind, Mr, Chair- 
man. 

The Chairman. Mr. Cooke, do you find in your section of the coun- 
try much anti-Semitic feeling? 

Mr. CooKE. It is growing, I think. 

The Chairman. It is growing? 

Mr, CooKE. Yes. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether or not the information 
contained, or the purported information contained in these reports 
was ever disseminated by word of mouth to other people ? 

Mr. CooKE. To start with, I did show them to some of my friends, 
just to get their opinion on the thing, but as for general dissemina- 
tion; no. 

The Chairman. But you did show them to some of your friends? 

Mr. CooKE. Yes; two or three of them right near my own home 
town. 

The Chairman. Do you know where Campbell got your name? 

Mr. CooKE. 'No; 1 don't. 

The Chairman, Before you started receiving the reports did you 
ever have any communication with him or anyone connected with 
him? 

Mr. CooKE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you ever agree to keep secret these reports 
when 3'ou received them? 

Mr. Cooke. No. 

The Chairman. Did he ever tell you to keep them secret? 

Mr. Cooke. I think there is one letter in there, or rather it is a 
glossary, of the names referred to in these reports. They refer to 
people and organizations by niclniames and so on,, and this glossary 
sent me was explaining or identifying the people indicated. 

The Chairman. In other words, to get it straight, he sent you a 
glossary so that when you got the reports and the reports had initials, 
that you could look up in the glossary and determine who he was 
referring to? 

Mr. Cooke. That is right, and on top of this it said "For your own 
personal use." 

The Chairman. So you would gather the very definite impression 
that it was to be entirely secret? 

Mr. Cooke. Well 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3219 

The Chaieman (interposing). That is, insofar as you making it 
public through the newspapers? 

Mr, Cooke. Oh, yes. 

The Chairman. It would be all right for you to disseminate this 
information to your friends, that would be naturally expected, any- 
thing as sensational as that you would naturally tell, or show it to 
Jolm Jones, and he in turn would tell it to Bill Smith, and it would 
spread by word of mouth, rather than any other means of communi- 
cation? 

Mr. Cooke. I wouldn't consider it was meant to be published m the 
paper. To a certain extent it was confidential. 

The Chairman. You are a good level-headed man; you appear to 
be, and I think this committee is very much impressed with the fact 
that you are straightforward and absolutely frank. Don't you think 
this is the most effective method of propaganda that anybody could 
think of? 

Mr. Cooke. I thought that is what it was to start with. 

The Chairman. The very fact that it came to you in that way 
impressed you, didn't it? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes. 

The Chairman. And the fact that partially some of it was true 
raised a doubt in your mind as to whether or not all of it wasn't 
true? 

Mr. Cooke. That is right. At first I didn't believe any of it, and 
then, as I said awhile ago, certain events happened that had been 
mentioned, and they got me to thinking that maybe there was some- 
tliing to it. 

The Chair]man. Do you know General Moseley yourself ? 

Mr. Cooke. I have just seen him; that is all. 

The Chairman. Is General Moseley spreading this anti-Semitic 
propaganda very widely, or are you in a position to say ? 

]SIr. CooKE. Just from hearsay ; that is all. 

The Chairman. You understand that he is? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes, sir. I wasn't at the meeting, at the meeting in 
Nashville. I had intended to go, but I wasn't able to attend at that 
time. 

The Chairman. Well, may I ask you this — I don't want to get on 
any partisan questions, and if any of you gentlemen think this is 
partisan, just speak up and say so — but in this whispering campaign, 
does it seem to be for the purpose of convincing the people that the 
Jews are running the Democratic Party ? 

Mr. Cooke. I haven't heard that mentioned. 

The Chairman. Does it assume the complexion of partisanship? 
Is it for the purpose of — or what is your impression of that ? 

Mr. Cooke. That hadn't occurred to me at all. 

The Chairman. You haven't heard anything about that? 

Mr. CooKE. No. 

The Chairman, What I was trying to tie up was if there was any 
scheme — I don't want to get into the question of partisanship. 

Mr. Thomas. No; the question was perfectly proper. 

But don't you think that this kind of propaganda that this man 
Campbell has been spreading inclines to incite racial and religious 
animosities and hatreds? 



3220 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Cooke. It might have that effect. 

Mr. Thomas. Now, I would like to ask you one more question — you 
mentioned that the original informer attended private meetings at 
homes of individuals ? 

Mr. Cooke. That is what Campbell told me. 

Mr. Thomas. That the individual informer attended private meet- 
ings at individual homes? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes; in addition to the meetings of the entire organ- 
ization, j 

The Chairman. Here is the point I am trying to clarify. You 
admitted in your testimony that anti-Semitic feelings, insofar as 
you have been able to see it, are growing ? 

Mr. CooKE. Yes. 

The Chairman. Now, what would be a more effective way of 
increasing that than such stuff as this ? 

Mr. Cooke. Just more talk, I suppose. 

The Chairman. Now, you admit that you have talked to some of 
jour friends and told them about these reports? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes. 

The Chairman. In fact, you showed them to some of your friends? 

Mr. CooKE. Yes. 

The Chairman. You didn't exact any promise from them that they 
wouldn't tell others, did you? 

Mr. CooKE. No. 

The Chairman. You have no way of knowing how many people 
they in turn talked to, have you? 

Mr. CooKE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Isn't it your experience and observation that when 
you surround anything with secrecy or mystery, like they did in the 
South when we had the Klan, that it is much more effective and ap- 
peals to the people more than it does if it is open and aboveboard; 
isn't that true? 

Mr. CooKE. I think that is more or less true. 

The Chairman. Well, now, have you any idea how many people in 
your section have been reached by this propaganda, how many people, 
I mean key people? 

Mr. CooKE. You mean through me or Campbell? 

The Chairman. Through Campbell. 

Mr. CooKE. I don't think there is anyone. 

The Chairman. You mean around Owensboro? 

Mr. CooKE. I don't know, I have never been up in that section, I 
don't know what goes on up there. 

Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Cooke, could I ask you a question? Has it 
occurred to you that while the fact that these pieces of information 
have been given out and in some cases things have happened that 
apparently were predicted, that that wouldn't necessarily follow from 
that, that the information was gleaned in the way that it was repre- 
sented to you that it was gleaned? In other words, what I mean is 
that there might be, apparently is, a leak somewhere around that lets 
this information out into somebody's hands that apparently shouldn't 
have it, but does it necessarily follow that the people that put out 
these reports get the information in just the way they say they do? 

Mr. CooKE. I wouldn't know as to that, all I know" is just what I 
w^as told. As far as that infomation is concerned, that is all I know. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3221 

I don't know wliether it is an organization or what it is that gets these 
reports. All I know is just as I stated a while ago, what Campbell 
told me was the origin of them. 

The Chairman. Are there any other questions, gentlemen? 

Mr, Whitley. One other question. 

Was it your observation, Mr. Cooke, that most of these predic- 
tions, which later were possibly verified in the newspapers, had to 
do with military affairs or activities? 

ISIr. Cooke. A good many of them. There was one other event 
that was predicted in the reports which you will find there if you 
go through them, and that was that a certain man's son was to be 
sent to England, ostensibly in the interests of the moving-picture 
concern with which he is connected at the present time, but in reality 
to contact foreign friends of this organization in New York, and 
that happened. 

Mr. VooRHis. You mean it happened that he went to England? 

Mr. CooKE. Yes; probably 10 days after this report. 

]\Ir. VooRHis. But that doesn't mean why he went there? 

Mr. CooKE. No; not a bit. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Cooke, did any of these envelopes you re- 
ceived contain copies of address which had been made by General 
Moseley ? 

Mr. Cooke. No. 

Mr. Whitley. That is all. 

Mr. Dempsey. This trip to Europe you are telling us about, that 
was predicted before the newspapers had said anything about it? 

Mr. CooKE. That is right. 

(Off the record discussion.) 

The Chairman. If we are going to leave this in, j^ou ought to 
say whose son it was, you mean the President's son? 

Mr. CooKE. The way the report says it is, "Frank's son James." 
That is the way the report reads. 

I have always tried to be fair about these things and I don't want 
to get anybody involved that shouldn't be, or try to cast any re- 
flection on anyone. 

The Chairman. That is all. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Brodie. 

TESTIMONY OF REID BEODIE, PEESIDENT, NATIONAL DEPOSIT 

BANK, OWENSBORO, KY. 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

Mr. Whitley. What is your residence address, Mr. Brodie? 

Mr. Brodie. Owensboro, Ky. 

Mr. Whitley. And your business or profession? 

]\Ir. Brodie. President of the National Deposit Bank at Owens- 
boro. 

Mr. Whitley. How long have you lived in Owensboro? 

Mr. Brodie. Born and raised there. 

Mr. Whitley. What size town is Owensboro. 

]\Ir. Brodie. Thirty-five or forty thousand people. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with Mr. J. E. Campbell, who 
has been in business or supposedly been in business in your town 
for the past year, approximately? 



3222 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Brodie. I never knew him until last month. 

Mr. Whitley. As I understand it, Mr. Campbell opened up officess 
in your town, approximately a year ago, under the name Business; 
Engineering Associates ? 

Mr. Brodie. That is right, as I understand. 

Mr. Whitley. "Wlien did you first have occasion to inquire con- 
cerning Mr. Campbell or to try to find out something about him or 
his activities? 

Mr. Brodie. On April 17, 1939, a gentleman came in and introduced 
himself as an investigator, and had his credentials with him, and 
asked me if I knew a James E. Campbell. There was a young Camp- 
bell that worked up at the Glenmore Distillery, but he rather be- 
lieved that it wasn't the man he wanted to know about. He asked 
if this man Campbell had an account with our bank, and I was quite 
sure he did not, but I looked to see, and then called three other banks; 
to ask them. This gentleman said it was a very confidential matter 
and so I thought I would go out of my way to offer any assistance 
that I could. None of the banks knew anything about him. 

Then I called the credit bureau and they said that they knew 
there was a James E. Campbell that had an office on the third floor 
of the Odd Fellows Building, an engineering office, but they didn't 
think I would be able to find any information about him. Well, it 
worked out just like they said, I wasn't able to find out much about 
the man. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you contact any of the other usual or routine 
sources of information on a businessman in a town? 

Mr. Brodie. I checked every way I knew how, and I couldn't get 
any information about the man at all. 

Mr. Whitley. Did it seem rather unusual to you that a man who 
had opened up offices in a new town, supposedly engaged in a legiti- 
mate business, was keeping his presence secret instead of advertisings 
it and making it known? 

Mr. Brodie. It seemed very strange, and I was very much ashamed 
of myself that I hadn't been after him soliciting his business, so I got 
on my clothes right then, and after the investigator left tried to sure 
enough look up this Campbell, and I never did find out any authentic 
information about him, at least. 

_Mr. Whitley. Unless he had been taking precautions to conceal 
his presence and activities, do you think that in ordinary routine 
contacts around there, his presence and business would have become 
known ? 

Mr. Brodie. I am quite certain it would. 

Mr. Whitley. In business channels? 

Mr. Brodie. In business channels: yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In j^our efforts to obtain information regarding Mr. 
Campbell for the committee investigator, did you contact Mr. Camp- 
bell's office? 

Mr. Brodie. Yes ; I called a number, 160, and a young lady answered 
the phone and said — I asked for Mr. Campbell and she said, "Mr. 
Campbell is not in." 

I said, "Could you tell me where I could locate him?" 

She said, "Mr. Campbell is not in." 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3223 

That was the end of the conversation. She wouldn't give me any 
information about him. 

Mr. WHITI.EY. In other words, if Mr. Campbell had been engaged 
in any business engineering project, he was not engaged in them in the 
vicinity of Owensboro? 

Mr. "Brodie. I couldn't find out anything about him. 

Mr. "Whitley. Did you also, Mr. Brodie, get in touch with the bank 
at Calhoun, Ky., to inquire about Mr. Campbell ? 

Mr. Brodie. Yes; in some of my contacts someone suggested — and 
I don't know who it was — that I might get some information from 
them at the bank at Calhoun, the Citizens Deposit Bank, so Mr. Scott, 
the past president of the bank, is one of my directors, and I thought 
I could get information from him, and I called Mr. Jolin Carey, who is 
the cashier of the bank at Calhoun, and he said, "Yes; we have a 
Mr. Campbell, James E. Campbell, a depositor with our bank." 

He said, "He lives in Owensboro." 

I said, "It is strange that I have to go to a little country town to 
find out about him, but I can't find out a thing about Mr. Campbell." 

"Well," he said, "he travels out of Owensboro and has an account 
here." 

So that is all I knew about him. 

Mr. Whitley. How far is Calhoun from Owensboro ? 

Mr. Brodie. Eighteen miles, 

]VIr. Whitley. It is in the same county ? 

Mr. Brodie. No; in an adjoining county. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, Mr. Campbell had what purported 
to be a business office in Owensboro and was keeping his bank account 
in another county? 

Mr. Brodie. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Those are the only questions I have in mind, Mr. 
Chairman. 

The Chairman. I have nothing else. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you contact some prominent Legionnaires 
around Owensboro inquiring about Mr. Campbell ? 

Mr. Brodie. Yes ; I called Mike Callas and Charles Astell, both very 
active Legionnaires, and they understood that he was in Owensboro 
organizing the Veterans of Foreign Wars, but further than that they 
knew nothing about him. 

JNIr. Whitley. That is all. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. CamjDbell. 

TESTIMONY OF JAMES E. CAMPBELL, BUSINESS ENGINEERING 

ASSOCIATES 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

The Chairman. INIay I ask you, Mr. Campbell, is there any reason 
why you will not be willing to give us the full facts in connection 
with this matter ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; there is no reason except what I told Mr. 
(committee investigator), that it was a protection, and he assured 
me that they would see that the boy in New York was protected, and 

94931— 39— vol. 5 4 



3224 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

I said I would be perfectly williuo: to go ahead because I was as 
anxious to clear up the situation in this country as you are to find it 
out. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your residence address ? 

Mr. Campbell. Owensboro, Ky. I did stay at the Hotel Owensboro 
until recently, when my mother came to Owensboro, and now I live at 
1200 West Third Street. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your business address ? 

Mr. Campbell. 30^1-306 Odd Fellows Building. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your business or profession ? 

Mr. Campbell. Engineering, sales, and market analysis. 

jNIr. Whitley. What is the name of your concern ? 

Mr. Campbell. Business Engineering Associates. 

Mr. Whitley. How long have you been in that business ? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, I followed engineering work, sales work, since 
the war. I was a salesman when I came back from France. 

Mr. Whitley. What outfit were you with during the war ? 

Mr. Campbell. Three Hundred and Nineteenth Engineers. 

Mr. Whitley. Overseas duty ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you remain in the service after you returned? 

Mr. Campbell. No; I came out of the service in August 1918. I 
went back into the Reserve, though ; I don^t remember whether it was 
1926 or 1927. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your present commission ? 

Mr. Campbell. Captain, Engineer Corps Reserve. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you active, then, or affiliated with various vet- 
erans' groups ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; I am. I have been active in my Legion post, 
I am post commander of my Veterans of Foreign Wars post, and 
Americanism chairman of the Department of Kentucky of the Vet- 
erans of Foreign AVars; also I have taken a very active interest in 
Reserve affairs, attend camp, and keep up on my Army work. 

Mr. Whitley. Working for promotion ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you organize the Veterans of Foreign Wars 
group in Owensboro? 

Mr. Campbell. With two other chaps ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What has been your business and professional ex- 
perience since you came out of the Army after the war, Avhere have you 
been in business and what was your connection or connections, briefly, 
Mr. Campbell? 

Mr. Campbell. The first job I had was with the Schwartz Elec- 
tric Co. in Indianapolis, and it went out of business along in 1921 or 
1922. Then I went from there with the Sunbeam Electric at Evans- 
ville, Ind. I was with them from 1922 until 1927. Then I was with 
George Wilman in Chicago, and he sent me out on a job with the 
Leopold Desk Co., out in Burlington, Iowa, on sales analysis, in which 
we developed a sales program, and taught their salesmen to sell office 
furniture. I was in Burlington 2 years on that job. Then I Avent 
with the Sherman Corporation, also on sales analysis work, industrial 
engineering, and I was with them until 1932. Tlien I went over v^ith 
George S. May. 

Mr. Whitley. Where is that concern located ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3225 

Mr. Campbell. Chicago, and I was there until the fall of 1932 or 
the spring of 1933, I don't remember the exact date. I moved back 
to Evansville, and started my own business, and I stayed on that, 
that was in 1932 that I went back there, and I worked there until 
1935, when I closed my office, business got bad. 

In the meantime I had started with the Reserve officers on sub- 
versive activities work. In 1932 a group of us started to make an 
investigation of subversive activities in the Fifth Corps Area. In 
1933 we continued that, and made a report to the Fifth Corps Area 
counsel, at the request of the department officers, and in 1933 that was 
all presented in a clossed meeting at the National Reserve Officers' 
Association Convention at Memphis. 

Col. Kemper Williams appointed the national committee and I was 
named chairman of it. Col. Frank Low was elected president of that 
association. Colonel Low has reappointed me as the chairman, and 
we appointed a corps area chairman in each of the nine corps. They 
in turn appointed a department chairman. That committee func- 
tioned, it started securing a tremendous volume of evidence on sub- 
versive activities. 

My business kept getting worse and worse. You gentlemen Imow 
what the industrial engineering business was during that time. I 
began to give more and more time to that, and in 1935 we gave a 
published report at the national convention at Minneapolis. I think 
the investigator has a copy of that report. 

We started to accumulate more and more evidence, and the thing 
began to get bigger and bigger. I sent some of that information 
through channels, military intelligence, and we got slapped down in 
two or three cases. We were told that it was no province of the 
Reserve officers because that investigation of communistic activities 
in this country was the province of civilian departments of the Gov- 
ernment. So we stopped sending things through. 

Mr. Thomas. Could you develop that a little bit? 

You said you got slapped down in two or three instances? 

Mr. Campbell. In one particular case I sent some stuff over to G-2 
of Governor's Island and asked them to make an investigation. This 
was in 1936, on the sale of some trucks from Philadelphia that were 
going to the Royalists in Spain. We figured that we had neutrality 
laws in this country and we had investigated and foimd that they 
were purchasing equipment in America. I have forgotten the officer's 
name now who was G-2 of Governor's Island at that time, and he 
said he didn't care for any of those reports because they had r.o 
money to investigate anything of that kind, had no men, and it would 
bother him, and at the same time it was without our province, and 
that in 1935 that had all been withdrawn from them, that is, men 
and money. 

So we tried the Navy the same way, and didn't get to first base 
with them, so we just merely continued to go along and accumulare 
this information ourselves. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you working at this as a full-time job? 

Mr. Campbell. About two-thirds of the time, and even borrowing 
money to go ahead with it. I went through this thing and spent 3 
years on it, borrowing money, and lost my home as a result of it, 
because it got into my sj^stem, I guess. 



3226 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Were you, during that period, affiliated or connected 
with any private organizations ? 

Mr. Campbell. In 1934 Colonel Methiney and a group organized 
the Constitutional Protective League which lasted about 6 months 
and then went out of the picture because it was construed as being a 
Republican organization because they made an attack on the New 
Deal. 

Mr. Whitley. Where was that organized ? 

Mr, Campbell. Chicago and Indianapolis. 

Mr. Whitley. You were affiliated with that? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. In what capacity ? 

Mr. Campbell. Vice president. They never functioned, and didn't 
even get to first base because it was construed as being political. It 
never secured any membership, most of the starters were Reserve 
officers or Legionnaire friends of mine, and when the campaign 
started out as a political campaign it was decided to drop it because 
it was construed as being partisan and Republican. 

Mr. Whitley. During that period — I am referring to the period 
now between 1932 and 1933 and the present, or up until 1937, the 
summer of 1937 — were you affiliated or connected with any individuals 
or organizations outside of service circles ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That were engaged in subversive investigation ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. Let me carry this thing further. During 
this time, I think, I ran into about every subversive organization in 
the country. 

Mr. Whitley. You mean you personally came in contact with 
them ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; but I was not a member of them, nor did I 
join any of them ; but I would, if you came in and said that you had 
an organization to combat, Nazi or Fascist, and invited me to go to 
a meeting, I would go. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with Pelley of the Silver Shirts ? 

Mr. Campbell. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with Deatherage? 

Mr. Campbell. I met him in 1936. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you ever officially connected with him in any 
way? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; I went out with him on two or three oc- 
casions. When I found out what his organization was — he had one 
purpose, and that was to use our group to make a penetration into 
the contacts that we had all over the country, of Reserve officers — 
and we dropped that thing right away. 

Mr. Whitley. How long, approximately, were you associated with 
him? 

Mr. Campbell. It took me possibly 60 days to find out what he 
had, the set-up and the whole thing. It was some time in the summer 
of 1936, I can't tell you the exact date, I know it was in the late; 
summer of 1936 because it was after the convention in Springfield. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever have any contact or association with 
the German-American Bund, or its forerunner, the Friends of New 
Germany ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3227 

Mr. Campbell. I never met the Friends of New Germany, I didn't 
know anything about them. I went up to Yorkville one time to see 
what the German-American Bund was like. I got in the office and 
someone told them I was a Reserve officer, and I got a very cold 
reception. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you see Fritz Kuhn? 

Mr. Campbell. He was in his office and they introduced him to 
me, and when they found out who I was I was not so hot. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the purpose of that visit? 

Mr. Campbell. I wanted to find out what they were, the same as I 
would do today if I had an opportunity to do it. 

Mr. Whitley. When did you first come in contact with Mr. Gil- 
bert, Mr. Dudley P. Gilbert"^ 

Mr. Campbell. The late summer of 1936 or the fall, rather. Was 
that before or after the Legion convention ? I can't say. 

Mr. Whitley. How did you happen to come in contact with him? 

Mr. Campbell. I met him in Newport, R. I., when I was chasing 
into this Deatherage outfit and was running that down, so it must 
have been in the late fall because I had about 2 months running that 
thing down. 

Mr. Whitley. Was Deatherage with you at the time that you met 
Mr. Gilbert? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what activity Mr. Gilbert was engaged 
in at that time? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir ; I did not at that time, but Mr. Gilbert told 
me I was with the wrong kind of a fellow, and I said, "You are not 
telling me anything I clon't know." 

Mr. Whitley. Trace your association with, and relation to, Mr. 
Gilbert from that first meeting, briefly? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, after that first meeting at Newport I didn't 
see anything more of Mr. Gilbert until — oh, it was some time either 
late in October or early in November of 1936. 

At that time he had an office in New York City and I was there 
and knew he had this office, and called him up to see what he was 
doing, and he asked me to have lunch with him. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the name of the office ? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, it was on Forty-eighth Street. At that time 
he was called the American Nationalists, but they closed that office 
some time right after that. I only had his telephone number and 
didn't know at the time in Newport that that was what he be- 
longed to. 

^ Mr. Whitley. Continue your contact with IVIr. Gilbert, a discus- 
sion of it? 

Mr. Campbell. We had lunch together that day, and we just dis- 
cussed the general situation. It was either just before or just after 
election. Then I didn't see anything more of Mr. Gilbert ; I think 
I saw him one time more before the first of the year. And then I 
didn't see anything more of him until some time in January of 1937. 
At that time I gave him a resume of what I had personally gone 
through, which we don't have to put here. It had cost me not only 
finances but a break-up at home iDecause I stayed in this thing and 
let my business go to pot. I went back to Indiana; it was just be- 



3228 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

fore the flood, and I drove back to New York and I had pneumonia 
out there, and I kicked myself into a nice case of pneumonia and 
stayed in New York. Things were pretty tough at that time, in fact 
so bad that I didn't know which way I was going to turn next. 

Mr. Whitley. You mean financially? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; and I didn't get the proper medical attention, 
and finally I called Mr. Gilbert and he said, "You can't stay like this, 
I don't care what you are up against," and so he gave me enough 
financial assistance so that I could take care of my hotel bill and the 
medicine and the doctor. Then I went on back to my grandmother in 
Indiana. That was along in March of 1937, and he and I began to 
have more and more increasing contact from there on up. 

He knew all I had gone through in the way of developing the Re- 
serve Officers Subversive Activities Committee, the contacts we had 
made all over the country, that I had stuck my nose into practically 
every organization we could find, and I didn't care whether they were 
Communists, Nazis, Fascists, or Americans, or what they were, be- 
cause I was after all the information I could get. 

I realized a long time a^o that communism was moving into this 
country and later that nazi-ism and fascism were also, although not 
on a comparable degree like the Communist activities that we had 
already unearthed. Well, then, he had this American Nationalists 
movement of his, and we tried to see what could be done with that. 
That didn't develop until 1938. I made a trip around with that, it 
was a splendid idea, but the idea was all wrong. 

Mr. Whitley. You mean a trip trying to promote the idea of 
that organization? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; and the idea of that organization, while its 
preamble and everything was right, the idea was all wrong because 
it was an organization that they weren't asking for any clues, and 
that don't go in America today. If you want to go out and develop 
an organization, charge them dues, and you will get some members, 
even if it is only 5 or 10 cents a week, like the Workers Alliance, 
or something else. But to develop it on the basis of patriotism, it 
couldn't be done. 

In the meantime we had seen what was happening, and he started 
getting these reports which we have termed "music scores." Now in 
all that time I have made a pretty thorough investigation, as far as I 
was capable, of Mr. Gilbert's background and family and American 
record. I had asked a couple of friends of mine to do likewise, and 
he had never done anything but what had proven him to be a perfect 
gentleman and an honorable American. So when he said he would 
give some financial assistance to open an office, I accepted the financial 
assistance. I told him I wanted to get back into the engineering busi- 
ness. I had one very good client which I am working with now. 

We had seen this other thing not develop because of the fact that 
there were no dues charged. Then these music scores, as we called 
them, began to come through. 

Mr. Whitley. By "music scores," you mean the reports that Mr, 
Campbell was getting from his informant? 

Mr. Campbell. Mr. Campbell didn't get them. 

Mr. Whitley. I mean Mr. Gilbert. 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; he sent them to me. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3229 

Mr. Whitley. When did they first start coming through? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, the first ones I saw were in 1937. We didn't 
do anything about them. 

Mr. Whitley. The summer of 1937 ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; the summer or fall of 1937. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know how this source of information con- 
tacted Mr. Gilbert or started furnishing him with this information? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; I do not. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you laiow the identity of this source of infor- 
mation ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; I do not. 

Mr. Whitley. How much do you know about it as to who he is or 
where he gets this infornuition that he furnishes Mr. Gilbert? 

]Mr. Campbell. I don't know the man, I don't know his name, nor 
did I ever see him. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his connection supposed to be through 
which he gets his information? 

Mr. Campbell. I was told that he was an employee of the Harmonie 
Club. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the address of that club ? 

Mr. Campbell. Four East Sixtieth Street. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know anything about this informant's 
background ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

]VIr. Whitley. Do you recall that in a conversation which you 
had with Mr. Cooke, the departmental commander for the State of 
Tennessee, American Legion, in Nashville, you explained to him the 
antecedents and background of this source of information? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; and I did that purposely because Mr. Cooke 
wanted to know who the other chap was in New York, and I didn't 
want to uncover Mr. Gilbert. I remember that very distinctly. 

Mr. Whitley. So you just pretended to Mr. Cooke that this 
source of information was re})orting to you ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. To eliminate ]\Ir. Gilbert. 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, because I didn't think that Mr. Cooke should 
have that information because it might jeopardize Mr. Gilbert or 
his sources of information. 

Mr. Whitley. That information that you gave Mr. Cooke at that 
time about the source of information was incorrect ? 

Mr. Campbell. That was incorrect ; yes, sir ; because I did not want 
to uncover the other. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know how long Mr. Gilbert had been in 
contact with this source of information prior to the time he started 
furnishing you with the reports? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; I do not. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know whether he had been in contact 
with him some weeks or some months or even several years previously? 

Mr. Campbell. That I would not know. 

Mr. Whitley. The first you knew of the source of information 
was when Mr. Gilbert started showing you the reports which he 
obtained from that person ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 



3230 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley, And that was in the summer of 1937 ? 

Mr. Campbell. Either the summer or fall of 1937. 

Mr. Whitley. Continue with your story from there, Mr. Camp- 
hell, particularly with reference to what kind of a plan was worked 
out between you and Mr. Gilbert ? 

Mr. Campbell. Then after we saw that this other thing — and I had 
gone over the country and could see it was impossible to build large 
posts like the plan that they had, I limited my contacts to, oh, I 
would say, 35 or 40 fellows, like Jim Cooke, and fellows whose names 
you have in the file here, and told them that I had that informa- 
tion and would send that information through for their ]3ersonal 
guidance. There were many reports that I received in the office that 
I didn't send out. 

Mr. Whitley. Why didn't you send those out ? 

Mr. Campbeix. Well, I will tell you. Some were irrelevant to the 
particular situation that seemed to be confronting us at the time. 
Some of them seemed too fantastic, and I tried to pick the reports — 
for example, one that I followed very closely was tlie one, some time 
in 1938, in which it said that we would have to eliminate from the 
Army World War officers because they were nationalist-minded and 
were uniting with tlie war veterans to oppose any war in this country. 

I couldn't see that, and I couldn't see that, and I followed that thing 
through pretty closely, because I had studied national defense. I am 
not an expert on it, but I believe in it ; otherwise I wouldn't be in the 
Reserve. The idea of eliminating from our Army the men of experi- 
ence is just as asinine as eliminating all you gentlemen from the 
House of Representatives and putting in 535 people that have never 
had any experience. 

And then I saw the Gasser report. General Gasser headed up a 
committee along in the summer to start the plan of eliminating officers, 
ostensibly to take out the peake of officers in grade. I watched that 
thing develop, and that is one phase that I have paid particular 
attention to. 

Mr. Thomas. May I ask a couple of questions on that? What 
summer was that ? 

Mr. Campbell. That was last summer. 

Mr. Thomas. That was last summer? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. And when did this report come through relative to 
this particular subject? 

Mr. Campbell. If you will get me that bound book [indicating], 
I think I can show you the date ; and I think was in February of 1938 ; 
and General Gasser was appointed on the committee in either June — 
you have probably got those newspaper clippings all mixed up — 
well 

Mr. Thomas (interposing). We will get the date in a minute. Do 
you hai:)pen to know the present status of that situation? 

Mr. Campbell. Only what I had read briefly in the Army and Navy 
Journal of Saturday before I left, and I have been following the 
present status, and I noticed in the paper that they planned to elimi- 
nate some 2,300 officers, and I think there w^as also a report came 
through awhile back, published in the New York Times, that 2,300 
officers would be eliminated. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3231 

Mr. Thomas. It may interest yon to know that the present statns of 
that is that the bill has jnst been given hearings by the Military Affairs 
Committee of the Honse, pnblic hearings. General Gasser spoke m 
behalf of that bill. Of conrse, I have no way of telling whether the 
bill will be reported ont by the committee or not, bnt my gness is that 
the bill will be reported to the full House within the next few days. 

Mr. Campbell. That, in particular, was one I followed. Of course, 
the House can decide what they want, but my opinion is that I think 
it is a rather suicidal move in the light of present circumstances to 
eliminate intelligent brains from commissioned personnel of the Army. 
They are experienced men. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Campbell, getting back to your relationship with 
Mr. Gilbert, and the plan you all worked out to get these reports into 
the hands of certain of your friends and associates, when and how 
did you and Mr. Gilbert decide that these reports were authentic and 
deserved to be or should be sent around, circulated ? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, late last summer or early fall, after keeping 
reports ancl looking them over, and then watching the newspapers 
closely, as of subsequent dates to see if some of the things that were 
predicted in those reports were brought out in the press, we found 
that they did, and that is the basis from which I sent that material 
out. I told those boys when I saw them, I said, "Now, some of these 
things that we are going to give you it is up to you to decide for 
yourselves whether they are correct. We have got the radio, the 
motion picture, and the press, and let subsequent events prove 
whether or not they are correct." 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you and Mr. Gilbert didn't make 
any plans with reference to disseminating those reports until you 
were convinced in your own mind that they were correct ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

]\Ir. Whitley. Did you and Mr. Gilbert ever discuss the possi- 
bility of turning those reports over to the proper authorities who 
would be interested in such a plot, if it did exist, to overthrow this 
Government, or did you ever consider making that information 
public? 

Mr. Campbell. We never considered making it public because it 
was his idea that if we did it would dry up his source of information, 
and in the li^ht of the ex]?erience that I have had with G-2, over at 
the island, and the reaction from G-2 in the Indiana military area, 
or the Fifth Corps Area, we didn't see any particular reason to do so. 

Mr. Whitley. You and Mr. Gilbert thought you would handle the 
situation yourselves, even though this overthrow of the Government 
was being planned, at least you believed from the reports that it was 
being planned? 

Mr. Campbell. That wasn't exactly it, because those reports had 
been reaching up into official channels; I think some of them had 
gone to certain gentlemen who should have been in a position — I gave 
one of the reports, I discussed it w^ith and I went to Atlanta, Ga., 
to see General Moseley this spring — it was either February or 
March — about Auramin compound. That is a product that this client 
of mine has developed for the cure of gonorrhea in men. And 
General Moseley, as I knew him in the Fifth Corps Area, was very 
much interested in wiping out venereal disease, and I asked him 



3232 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

throngli some correspondence, and going down there, if we couldn't 
develop this kit for the Army, and at that time I discussed with the 
general one of these reports and told him I would leave it to his 
discretion if he cared to discuss it with General Craig. I don't know 
whether he did or not. I said, "Anything that I sent you, if you feel 
it should be taken to proper channels, you may do so," and that they 
wouldn't listen to me where they might listen to him. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you still working on the development of this 
prophylactic ? 

Mr. Campbell. Very much so. 

Mr. Whitlet. Is Mr. Gilbert associated with you in that project? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; I told him of the progress that we were mak- 
ing on that the last time I saw him. In other words, today, while 
we are effecting some marvelous cures, it isn't ready for commercial 
development. 

Mr. Whitley. Is Mr. Gilbert financing your activities in connec- 
tion with that product ? 

Mr. Campbell. When he found out the financial status I was in, 
lie said: "I will finance this office for you, and if you can get any 
engineering business, the only thing I want, after it is going good, 
then I will participate in it," and that is the basis that we have 
worked on. 

Mr. Whitley. What are your relations with General Moseley, 
Mr. Campbell? 

Mr. Campbell. First, I met General Moseley when he was the 
Fifth Corps Area commander. He discussed subversive activities 
before a group of Reserve officers, and we talked to him afterward 
and I made two reports as chairman of the Fifth Corps Area com- 
mittee, w^iile he was corps area commander. I think I perhaps 
saw him twice after that, or maybe three times; while I was with 
the Reserve Officers Association, and he was at Atlanta, I didn't 
go there very often, but I knew^ of his extreme interest in combating 
venereal disease in this country, and when I got this Auramin com- 
pound, I went to see the general on that because I thought he might 
have enough influence to get both the Public Health Service and 
the Medical Corps to use that to effect some cures in the Army so 
we could get some additional proof on it, and in that way put it on 
the market. Of course when I met the general naturally he had 
been making some speeches 

Mr. Whitley (Interposing). When was this that you contacted 
him regarding this product? 

Mr. Campbell. That was some time last winter. 

And then when I contacted him, some friends of mine in Indian- 
apolis asked if I could get General Moseley to talk before them, and I 
wrote a letter and asked him if he would come to Indianapolis and 
speak at the hotel there. He did, and that speech was well received, 
and I suppose I am guilty again because I sent copies of his speech 
out to all of these friends of mine. I liked it. 

Mr. Whitley. By "your friends," you mean the mailing list to 
whom you had been sending Mr, Gilbert's reports? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, and to quite a few other friends that I knew 
through the Legion and in the Reserve and the V. F. W. 

Then I arranged for a s])eech for him to make sometime in Feb- 
ruary, I think it was in February, down at Nashville. Doug White, 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3233 

who was the post commander of the Legion, and I, arranged for 
that, and he made that speech. Then he sent me some copies of 
the speeches he made in Boston and also in Phihidelphia. I liked 
those so I sent those out. Those are the last speeches of his I have 
sent ont. I haven't seen the general since I discussed Auramin with 
him a short time after the Nashville meeting, in Atlanta, which was 
some time in March. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you correspond with him, keep in touch with 
him? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, you have got the file there on how much it 
is, it isn't an extensive file at all, perhaps a dozen letters all told. 

Mr. Whitley. Getting back to the dissemination of these reports, 
have you restricted the circulation exclusively to your friends or 
associates ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. In either the Reserve Officers' Association or in one 
of the Legion organizations? 

Mr. Campbell. In the Legion or the V. F. W. There are perhaps 
a half dozen exceptions to that in which I have sent of those reports 
occasionally to someone; for example someone would write in and 
say, "I wish you would send some of these reports to a friend of 
mine," but if they were sent it is in that mailing list. 

Mr. Whitley. This mailing list which I am aoing to show vou for 
identification represents all of the persons, individuals, or organiza- 
tions, to whom those reports have been circulated. 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you identify this folder, Mr. Campbell, as 
•containing the mailing list? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; that is not it. 

Mr. Whitley. This is not it? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. I started to develop a list of prospective 
clients for engineering, and I was going to get out some advertising 
for engineering service, and this is the list of those prospective clients. 
Let me see if any of these happen to be personal friends of mine who 
liave gotten those records. 

No ; this is the list I have been developing to send out advertising 
to. I have got some copies in my office of a form letter for engineer- 
ing service. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you haven't sent the reports to any 
of the names listed on this list ? 

Mr. Cainipbell. Not on that list. 

Mr. Whitley. How about this list? 

Mr. Campbell. That is my old Reserve officers' subversive activity 
•committee. 

Mr. Whitley. This list is captioned "National Committee" ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is National Committee of Reserve Officers, 
Subversive Activities. This Mr. White was chairman of the First 
Corps Area 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). They are all Reserve officers? 

Mr. Campbell. They are all Reserve officers. 

Mr. Whitley. And they haven't received that material which you 
sent out? 

INIr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You have not sent anv to them ? 



3234 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas (interposing). What States comprise the Fifth Corps 
Area ? 

Mr. Campbell. Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, and West Virginia, No ; 
that is not it. 

Mr. Whitley. This is not a mailing list, and you have not sent 
any material to these names? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; that is the list of the Reserve officers. 

Mr Whitley. This list is captioned, "Notebook Names"? 

Mr. Campbell. That goes back over a period of perhaps 10 years, 
people that I have met in business connections all the way through. 

Mr. Whitley. This is not a list of people to whom you sent copies 
of the rejoorts ? 

Mj'. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. All right. 

I show you another list captioned, "Various States" ? 

Mr. Campbell. This is your Reserve officers' State committees that 
we had on here. This is all Reserve officers here. 

Mr. Whitley. All Reserve officers, and that is a list used in send- 
ing out your reports? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You didn't use that one? 

Mr, Campbell. No, sir ; that is the old committee that we had. 

Mr. Whitley. All right. 

I show you another list captioned, "Michigan" ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is the Reserve Officers' Association in various 
chapters in Michigan that we contacted when we were working in 
Michigan with the Reserve officers' subversive activities committee. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that a list of names to whom you sent the mate- 
rial? 

Ml'. Campbell. No, sir. 

IMr. Whitley. You did not? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you another list captioned "Indiana"? 

Mr. Campbell. That is the same thing for Indiana, it is the Re- 
serve officers who were the chairmen. 

Mr. Whitley. And you did not send any of the reports to them? 

Mr. Campbell. No; this antedated all these reports. 

Mr. Whitley. Here is another list headed, "Illinois?" 

Mr. Cainipbell. The same thing there. 

Mr. Whitley. And you did not use that as a mailing list ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you a folder, Mr. Campbell, captioned "Data 
List, Dates, and Contracts," and ask you if that is a list of people to 
whom you sent reports? 

ISIr. Campbell. No; some of these are and some aren't. Now, I 
could check the ones off here. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you a typewritten list captioned, "Ad- 
dresses," containing various names of individuals. Is that a mailing 
list to which you sent copies of the reports ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; that is a list that I use so if I am going 
into any State I ask my stenographer to give me the names of the 
people that I might want to call on. 



UN-AMERICAN PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3235 

Ml'. Whitley. I show you, Mr. Campbell, a list, the first name on 
the list being D. Trotter Jones, Montgomery, Ala., and ask you if 
that is a mailing list for your reports? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; those fellows have all received various 
reports from time to time. 

Mr. Whitley. INIark that as an exhibit. 

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit 3.") 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Campbell, I show you another typewritten list 
containing names and addresses, the first name on the list being D. 
Trotter Jones, and the last name on the first page of the list being 
Howard Rawton, and ask you if that is a mailing list for the reports ? 

Mr. Campbell. That was, yes; except that this fellow hasn't re- 
<;eived any for a long time. 

Mr. Whitley. That will be marked as an exhibit. 

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit 4.") 

Mr. Whitley. Mr, Campbell, I show you another list of names 
and addresses, the first name on the list being L. V. Parmley, Little 
Rock, Ark., and ask you if you will identify that as a mailing list? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir ; this is the list here. 

Mr. Whitley. Attached to this latter list which you just identified, 
Mr. Campbell, is a typewritten report captioned, "Important — Re- 
port of November 23, 1938," which is allegedly one of the reports sent 
jou by Mr. Gilbert ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. We won't niark that for the record. 

The Chairman. Can the witness say approximately how many 
were on his mailing list? 

Mr. Campbell. I would say between 35 and 40 that were getting 
the reports, and this here shows the various reports that were re- 
ceived. Some of them didn't receive many. Here is one of the 22d 
of June where the report, that report, was the only one this chap 
received because it covered the Gellerman report on the American 
Legion which we had a report on before it was released for the 
I)ress. 

Mr. Whitley. And all these other lists I have shown you were 
mot mailing lists? 

Mr. Campbell. No. 

The Chairman. What was the purpose of them? 

Mr. Campbell. The Gellerman report was the one attacking the 
Legion and this fellow happened to be a good Legionnaire friend of 
mine, and I wanted to show him that they had that report released 
before it was released for the press. 

_ The Chairman. Well, I know, but you have here all this mailing 
list, what did you send to them? 

Mr. Campbell. I sent those reports to this list here [indicating]. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you another list, written on the stationery 
of the Hotel Antlers, and ask you if that is a mailing list? 

Mr. Campbell. That is a duplication of what you have over there 
[indicating]. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you, Mr. Campbell, a sheet attached to one 
you have previously identified as containing lists of persons to whom 



3236 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

you sent these reports, this sheet containing writing in longhand, 
and a sheet being entitled, "Dated reports," containing various dates. 
Will you explain what that relates to ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is the reports that were sent out on that 
particular trip, or given to some of those contacts in the West when 
I was out through the Middle West. That is the date of the report 
[indicating]. 

Mr. Whitley. The date of the report which you passed out? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitlet. And this shows the number which you passed out 
also? 

Mr. Campbell. No; it is the number of reports that were received 
in each of those months, or sent out, three in October, three in Feb- 
ruary of 1938. 

Mr. Whitley. How many of those did pass out on that trip, do 
you know? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, I gave those to the boys that I met personally. 

Mr. Whitley. They weren't mailed? 

Mr. Campbell. No. They might have been mailed. If any of them 
were previous to May of 1938 I gave it to them, if it was after May 
of 1938 — that is along about the time of the Army report — I remem- 
ber that now — but any after May of 1938 would have been mailed. 

Mr. Whitley. The right-hand portion of this same sheet says, 
"Additional list," and contains a number of dates? 

Mr. Campbell. That means additional reports have been sent to 
supplement those which I had given out. 

Mr. Whitley. This sheet in longhand, together with the attached 
tabulation, will be marked as an exhibit. 

(The documents were marked as "Exhibit 5.") 

Mr. Thomas. About how many reports would you mail out in a 
month, on the average? 

Mr. Campbell. Possibly four. 

Mr. Thomas. Four different ones ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; it wouldn't average that much, and they did 
not go to the entire list. If I would get a report that pertained, 
we will say, to Texas alone, I would only send it to Fred Young, 
whom I know down in Texas, and if I got something that pertained 
to the west coast I would only send it to the boys out on the west coast. 

The Chairman. Fred Young is the head of the American Legion 
in Texas, isn't he ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right — no ; he is the adjutant. 

Mr. Thomas. Wliat I am trying to find out is how many people on 
the average received reports from you in the course of a month? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, perhaps the entire lot would receive a report 
during the month. 

Mr. Thomas. How many are there in the entire lot ? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't think there are over 40 in the entire lot. 

Mr. Dempsey. You don't have a man in each State ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Dempsey. And what did you expect that man to do when he 
got the report ? 

Mr. Campbell. That was given to him confidentially. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3237 

Mr. Dempsey. Not to give to others? 

Mr. Campbelx,. No. 

Mr. Dempsey. How did you expect to stop the revokition by those 
instructions ? 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't expect to stop the revokition. 

Mr. Dempsey. What was the purpose? 

Mr. Campbell. So those fellows could be kept advised of what was 
happening. 

Mr. Dempsey. For what purpose? 

Mr. Campbell. If anything was happening there we were asking 
them to tell us, and if I felt in my own mind tkat this thing had 
reached a stage where there was anything about to pop, I wouldn't 
have hesitated to go over to the corps area headquarters. 

jVIr. Dempsey. Do you think it has reached that stage? 

Mr. Campbell. No; not yet. 

Mr. Dempsey. Do you think that Mr. Gilbert tliinks so? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't know whether he does or not. I think it 
is pretty serious, I think a thorough check will prove conclusively 
that there is a large amount, a large number, as I saw them in the 
May Day parade, of loyalists from the loyalist army, in this country. 
I saw a news reel out in Owensboro the other night that showed the 
parade of tlie Communist people or people's army, as they call it, on 
May Day in ^Mexico City, and it was astounding to see the number 
of Spanish Loyalist veterans that were in that parade. Well, I 
think there is a large volume of those people in this country. After 
all, they have got to make pretty good preparations and take pretty 
drastic steps, and start a series of mobilizations before they can do 
anything. I do think, and I believe sincerely, that we are faced 
with a threat of some kind of a Communist revolt in this country 
because of the losses that they have suffered in other countries. 

The Chairman. Let Mr. Whitley finish his examination before 
we get off on that. 

Mr. Whitley. I am trying to get some of these lists. 

I show you another list, Mr. Campbell, attached to the list I just 
referred to, captaioned "Dated report." 

Mr. Campbell. This is a copy of that same one that you have over 
there. 

INIr. Whitley. And that is a list of people to whom you have sent 
material ? 

Mr. Campbell. The ones that the reports go to. It shows the 
dates of the reports and the ones that were sent to them. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Campbell, when did INIr. Gilbert first start fur- 
nishing you with finances, either jDersonally or for the purpose of 
carrying out this project? 

Mr. Campbell. He gave me a little money when I was sick, as I 
told you. Then the next was some time in the summer of 1937, in 
small amounts. 

Mr. Whitley. The next was after you all had decided to continue 
the work of the American Nationalists, Inc., in this manner? 

IMr. Campbell. No ; not in this manner at all. I was trying to get 
back on my feet. 

Mr. Mason. Then that money was more on a friendly basis thani 
to pay you for services ? 



3238 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Campbell. Because I lost my home and my wife as a result 
of getting in this damn thing, and she got a little peeved, maybe she 
was justified. 

Mr. jNIason. Wlien did he start paying you for services rendered 
in diffusing this information? 

Mr. Campbell. Late in the fall of 1937, and in a very small 
amount at that, because I was still staying with my grandmother. 

Mr. Whitley. He was just paying your expenses in connection with 
your travel ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you explain for the committee, Mr. Campbell, 
just how these reports are received by Mr. Gilbert, what is done with 
them, and how they are received by you, and then what is done with 
them after you get them ? 

Mr. Campbell. I can explain how I received them, but how he re- 
ceived them I don't know. I receive them by mail ; and, as I said, 
there is a whole raft of them there, and there are the lists of the ones 
sent out. I used my discretion to try to pick out the ones 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). Are they received typewritten or in 
longhand ? 

Mr. Campbell. Longhand. 

Mr. Whitley. In Mr. Gilbert's handwriting? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; and then I would call the girl in and say, 
"Make a copy of this and send it to these people," and if I wanted it 
sent to the general list I would tell her so. That general list was 
developed only from personal contacts with these people. Then when 
I got going through on that thing and we saw it was impossible to 
develop a large number of chapters as originally planned, I told Gil- 
bert I was going after clients and devote a lot of time to that. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, wdien you first started out to send 
out these reports, you had planned to set up chapters of the American 
nationalists ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And to send the reports out to those chapters ? 

Mr. Campbell. No; those reports w^ere to be given to the persons 
I knew personally. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you didn't send reports to someone 
you didn't know ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You didn't just find names of persons connected 
with organizations and send them reports ? 

Mr. Campbell. Oh, no. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Mr. Cooke, in Tennessee; did you know 
him ? 

Mr. Campbell. I met Mr. Cooke through Mr. May. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you .discuss with Mr. Cooke the prospect or pos- 
sibility of you sending him these reports, or telling him what they 
w^ere, or that you were going to send them to him ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is a case where Mr. May asked me to send Jim 
Cooke some reports. Then Jim Cooke wrote and said he wanted to 
meet me. So I met him in March or February. 

Mr. Whitley. Of this year ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3239 

Mr. Campbeix. Yes; that was in Nashville, and that is when I told 
him what I explained to you a moment aoo, to cover up what the 
actual truth of tlie mutter was. I had sent him two or three reports, 
and he had seen some that I had been sending to May, and after meet- 
ing Cooke I have sent him a few more reports that have come through 
since, and that was this year. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it a fact, Mr, Campbell, that the predictions wjiicli 
have been made in these reports and which 3'ou state have subse- 
quently been confirmed by new^s items, relate primarily to military 
activities and military affairs? 

Mr. Campbell. I would say that they relate to radical activities, or 
rather to the progress made by the radical forces in this country. 

The specific instance with which I have been primarily concerned 
was the one pertaining to the Army. I may be all wrong, but other 
nations have not discontinued the advice of their old officers. The 
fact of the matter is that they have called some of their old officers 
back to active duty. 

Mr. Thomas. Under this bill they can do the same thing. 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; but I would still rather have a 60-year-old 
colonel commanding my regiment than a 40-year-old captain who was 
promoted to colonelcy. 

Mr. Mason. Do you know that every prominent nation in the 
world has done or is doing just what is contemplated under this bill? 

The Chairman. Gentlemen, let's not get off on the question of 
some bill ; we are not interested in that. 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

You may be very much right on that, sir, I don't know, except that 
was my personal opinion in following that thing through. I thought 
the experience of those fellows would be invaluable to our national 
defense, and that was the stand I took on that, how it affected us 
here. 

Mr. Whitley. Getting back again, Mr. Campbell, to the manner in 
which this plan was worked out between you and Mr. Gilbert, after 
you had looked the field over and decided that it would not be prac- 
tical to try to establish local chapters of the American Nationalists, 
Inc., then you and Mr. Gilbert decided that the best manner in which 
to get this information into the channels which you thought it should 
be directed into was for him to send you the reports and for you to 
send them to your contacts? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. With that idea in mind, then, did you open up this 
office in Owensboro? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; I had this business in mind also when I opened 
up this office in Owensboro. 

Mr. Wihtley. In other words, the dissemination of this material 
was just to be a side line to your regular business activity? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right, because I realized I couldn't get 
back on my feet financially, depending on anything like that, and I 
had gone so deeply in the hole when I worked as national chairman 
for the Reserve officers' subversive activities committee that I realized 
I would have to have an income. 

Mr. Whitley. So you explained that to Mr. Gilbert and he agreed 
to it? 

94931— 39— vol. 5 5 



3240 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Campbell, I told Mr. Gilbert that I would go after the clients 
and at the same time I would send out these reports. 

Mr. Whitley. So you opened up the office in Owensboro — when? 

Mr. Campbell. June of last year. 

Mr. Whitley. Under the name of Business Engineering Associ- 
ates? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. That is your own business, and no one is associated 
with you in that business? 

Mr, Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. And that was with the idea, primarily, of pursuing 
that business and handling this as a side line ? 

Mr. Campbell. I had no clients at that time, and I needed an 
office and a little prestige. That provided the opportunity to have 
the office and to start developing and to try to establish contacts 
wdth some of the old clients whom I had known by working for other 
companies and trying to get new products. I have four new products 
now that I am trying to find manufacturers to handle. 

But, I also realized that you couldn't very well go out and tell a 
fellow you were in a position to do a job for him in engineering if 
you were operating out of a suitcase. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you have actively and aggressively 
followed your business? 

JNIr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. In conjunction with that, did you make your pres- 
ence known in Owensboro and engage in the advertising which one 
ordinarily would do in opening up a new business in a new town? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, advertising in the engineering field is a little 
bit different than it would be in opening a store. That is a case 
of a personalized service. I had leads on several different products 
which I could get. I realized that on that gonorrhea cure, the Aura- 
min compound, that it would take quite a little development work. 
There wasn't any use to try to advertise that product until the proper 
background had been established for it by the medical profession. 

JNIr. Whitley. So you worked quietly on that? 

Mr, Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Back to the matter of finances — after a rather 
modest beginning, as I understand it, in the summer of 1937, which 
at that time was probably more personal than for the purpose of 
your activity in spreading or sending out these reports, what basis of 
financing did you get on with Mr. Gilbert? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, that remained along pretty steady through 
1938 and in 1939, when I found expenses bigger, I talked with Mr. 
Gilbert. I had some creditors pressing me closely for some of the 
money I had borrowed while I was national chairman of the Sub- 
versive Activities Committee, and Mr. Gilbert increased that amount 
so I could take care of some of those. One in particular was for 
some $800, 

Mr. Whitley. So he continued to finance you, both personally and 
for the purposes of paying the expenses in connection with getting 
out these reports ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right, and then there was the office to main- 
tain and my traveling expenses, and he has also advanced the money, 
$40 a month, which I pay on a car. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3241 

Mr. Whitley. Did lie bring any of the files or records of the 
American Nationalists, Inc., down when he opened your office in 
Owensboro, or rather when you opened that office? 

Mr. Campbell. No; he did not. 

Mr. AVhitley, What would you say, or do you have any records 
showing the total amount of money that you have received from Mr. 
Gilbert, either for personal matters or in connection with this project ? 

Mr. Campbell. I could not say unless I made a very close check-up 
on what deposits I made in the bank. 

The Chairmax. Right there, approximately how much have you 
received ? You certainly can estimate. 

Mr. Campbell. Approximateh^ $8,000. 

Mr. Whitley. Since the summer of 1937? 

Mr. Campbell. Since the fall of 1937. The other was a very small 
amount previous to that time. 

Mr. Whitley. ]Mr. Campbell, you maintain a bank account at the 
Citizens Deposit Bank, in Calhoun, Ky. ? 

Mr. Campbell. I do. 

]\lr. Whitley. I show you this transcript of the ledger account, 
and ask you if you can identify that as the record of your account^ 
in that bank ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir ; that is my name. 

Mr. Whitley. Attached to this ledger sheet is an adding machine 
tabulation of the deposits made in that account since April 1938? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. The total of those deposits is $5,435. Do all, or the 
majority of those deposits, represent money you have received from 
Mr. Gilbert? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That will be marked for the record. 

(The document was marked as "Exhibit No. 6.") 

Mr. AVhitley. I show you, for identification, Mr. Campbell, photo- 
static cop3^ of the ledger account in the name of J. E. Campbell, with 
the Fletcher Trust Co., Indianapolis, Ind. The account was opened 
August 7, 1937, and the last entry made on the ledger sheet is April 
17, 1939. Will you identify that as a copy of the transcript of your 
account ? 

The Chairman. That is in Indiana ? 

Mr. Campbell. Indianapolis. That is when I was living with my 
grandmother. A part of this is money borrowed from my stepfather. 
I owe him around $2,000. 

Mr. Whitley. During the period this account has been in existence? 

Mr. Campbell. That runs from since 1937. 

Mr. Whitley. That was when the account was opened ? 

]Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. I also show you for identification photostatic copy 
of a ledger sheet of a savings account in the Fletcher Sa\angs & 
Trust Co., Indianapolis, in the name of James E. Campbell. This 
savings account was opened, when? 

Mr. Campbell. When I was a boy, about 1913, and they held that 
account through, and when I found out about it I started making 
small deposits down there, and carried that thing up to $100, and 
then had to draw $75 out of it to meet a bill, and I finally put the 
$75 back. 



3242 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. You identify both of those as the records of your 
account ^ 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Your savings and your checking accounts at the 
Fletcher Trust Co.? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. How much is the total amount? 

Mr. Whitley. The adding machine total of the deposits, made in 
the checking account, amounts to $4,286.01. 

The Chairman. What about the savings account? 

Mr. Campbell. That is $100. 

The Chairman, That began when,, that checking account ? 

Mr. Whitley. 1937. 

That will be marked as "Exhibit No. 7." 

(The document was marked as "Exhibit No. 7.") 

Mr. Whitley. What percentage of the total deposits that have 
gone into this checking account of $4,286.01, did you get from Mr. 
Gilbert? 

Mr. Campbell. A trifle over half of it. There is about $2,000 from 
my stepfather. 

Mr. Whitley. So that makes up the approximate figure you gave 
of about $8,000 that you have obtained from Mr. GillDert since the 
summer or fall of 1937? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. There might have been $200 or $300 in 
cash, in addition to that, like I might go to New York and he would 
give me $50 or $75 in cash. Possibly in those times it might have 
totaled that much. 

Mr, Whitley, What is the largest amount of money you ever 
obtained from Mr, Gilbert in 1 month, Mr, Campbell? 

Mr. Campbell, Well, I am borrowing money from him to build a 
house in addition to that, and that was last month. 

Mr, AVhitley. Are you building that house for yourself or Mr, 
Gilbert? 

Mr, Campbell. For myself, 

Mr, Whitley. Where is that? 

Mr. Campbell, Down near Beech Grove, Ky, 

Mr. Whitley. When did you start that house? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, we started digging a foundation for it last 
month, and he sent me $1,000, and he agreed to loan me $5,000. 

Mr. Whitley. Wliat evidence of these loans, or what collateral se- 
curity, have you given Mr. Gilbert? 

Mr. Campbell. I haven't given him any, I told him that when I 
got the thing completed I would give him a mortgage on the house, 
because we are not building it with a contractor, we are using local 
labor down there and I know how to do my own wiring and plumb- 
ing, and we can save a lot of money on that. 

Mr. Dempsey. How large a house are you building? 

Mr. Campbell. It is going to be eight rooms, but we have got all 
native stone and can build it as cheaply as a frame house. We have 
fellows down there digging stones out of the creek bed, and the 
labor only costs $3 a day with team. 

Mr. Thomas. Where is this house located ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3243 

Mr. Campbell. Three miles from Beech Grove, out of Covington. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you own the land? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; the title is to be transferred to me. 

Mr. Thomas. Who is the title of the land in now ? 

Mr. Campbell. Mr. Denhart. 

Mr. Whitley. He is a friend of 3'ours down there? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you, for identification, Mr. Campbell, photo- 
static copies of six checks, drawn on the Banlv of New York, Madison 
Avenue Branch, all dated in the month of April 1939, all made 
payable to you, and all signed by Dudley P. Gilbert. The total 
amount of those six checks is $1,800. 

Mr. Campbell. One thousand dollars I applied on the house. That 
is in my bank account in the bank. It has been deposited both at Cal- 
houn and in the Fletcher Trust. 

Mr. Whitley. Before Mr. Gilbert started helping you finance this 
house, what was his average monthly payment to you, approximately ? 

Mr. Campbell. $500 until the last 3 months, when he started in- 
creasing it. 

]\Ir. Whiti.ey. These checks are already in the earlier part of the 
record as exhibit 2. 

Mr. Campbell, I believe you stated earlier in your testimony that 
you had no contact, that is, official contact, by way of a cooperative 
agreement or working plan, with any other organization ? 

Mr. Campbell. Except the Constitutional Protective League. 

]\Ir. Whitley. You have never been in contact with or worked with 
or cooperated with Pelley's organization of Silver Shirts in any way? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; I do not know that organization and I 
have never met Pelley. 

Mr. Whitley. You never had any contact with anyone associated 
or connected with it ? 

Mr. Campbell. If they were I did not know it. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever had any contact with James True ? 

Mr. Campbell. I met him in his office in Washington one time. 

]\Ir. Whitley. Do you know the nature of Mr. True's business? 

JNIr. Campbell. He published a report called Industrial Control 
Report. 

jNIr. Whitley. A^Hiat is the nature of those reports? 

Mr. Campbell. They look like a hash and rehash of news reports 
in the paper. 

Mr. Whitley. Are they anti-Facist or anti-Nazi or anti-radical? 

INIr. Campbell. I couldn't figure it out, I only had a few of them 
and never subscribed to the service, and don't know very much about 
them. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, they are very viciously anti- 
Semitic, for your information. 

]\Ir. Campbell. I haven't seen one of the True reports for over 2 
years. I had a run-in with one of his men. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Campbell, I have here a list of long-distance 
telephone calls made from tele]:»hone number National 5559, Wash- 
ington, D. C, which is room 307, Insurance Building, Washington, 
D. C. The telephone is listed in the name of Mr. Harrison Fargo 
McConnell — are you acquainted with him ? 



3244 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whiti^.t. This record of long-distance calls shows that on 
October 17, 1938, a call was made from that number by a party named 
Olsen, D. A. Olsen. Do you loiow him ? 

Mr. Campbell. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Calling Murray Hill 3-5650, New York City Do 
you know what number that is at Murray Hill? 

Mr. Campbell. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Calling Campbell ? 

Mr. Campbell. I was not there at that time, I think we were still 
out on the west coast, we had been to the Legion convention and 
were on our way back from there, I went out with Mr. and Mrs. 
Denhart. The convention was around the 18th or 19, and we came 
up through Sari Francisco and were driving a Ford V-8 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). That call didn't go to you? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And you don't know what that number is? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; and I don't know Mr. Olsen. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know Mr. Roy Zachary ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Cleveland, Ohio. 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. This list also shows that on November 3, 1938, a 
call was put in from National 5559, Washington, to Murray Hill 
3-5650, New York, Campbell calling David Olsen at that number in 
New York. 

Mr. Campbell. I do not know about that either. 

Mr. Whitley. You were not putting in a call through this phone 
for that number ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know a party named McConnell in New 
York who is at that telephone number? 

Mr. Campbell. The only McConnell I know is an advertising man 
in Indianapolis. 

Mr. Whitley. Not H. F. McConnell ? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; I think it is W. B. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know a party named Hinchcliffe ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Are you sure that you don't know Mr. Roy 
Zachary ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir ; I do not. 

The Chairman. Are you sure you don't know Olsen ? 

Mr. Campbell. I do not; no, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you ever talk to True on the telephone? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Are you sure about that? 

Mr. Campbell. I am sure about that. The only time I ever met 
him was in 1936 in his office. 

The Chairman. You have been furnishing True with copies of 
this report, haven't you ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. If True got any copies of this report he got 
them from some other channel. He had a chap that worked for him 
some time back — well, the less said about that the better. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3245 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know Allen ZoU? 

Mr. Campbell. I met him one time. He sat at a luncheon table 
with me in Indianapolis when General Moseley spoke there. 

Mr. Thomas. What does he do, do you know ? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't knoAv, I never saw him before, I didn't know 
who he was and I still don't know. He told me he had been the 
representative of the Real Silk Hosiery in Texas. 

Mr. Thomas. Don't you know what he is doing now ? 

Mr. Campbell. And that he was organizing some league against 
communism in New York City. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you recall the name of it? Is it New York 
Patriots, Inc.? 

Mr. Campbell. No; I don't think that was the name. It was, I 
believe, some kind of a federation. 

Mr. Thomas. Did they meet in the Iroquois Hotel, in New York? 

Mr. Campbell. That I don't know, sir, we were at the lunch table 
and there were quite a few Reserve officer friends of mine : 

Mr. Thomas. Did you ever hear that General Moseley spoke at 
one of his luncheons up there? 

Mr. Campbell. _That is the one I have reference to. 

Mr. Whitley. I have here a list of long-distance telephone calls 
made from National 4670, Washington, D. C, which phone is listed 
in the name of D. A. Olsen, 1317 F Street, Room 506, Washington, 
D. C. This list shows that on June 27, 1938 National 4670, Wash- 
ington, called Lackawanna 4-3178, New York, Campbell — was that 
you ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You were not in New York at that time? 

Mr. Campbell. I was in Indiana at that time because 3 days later 
I was in Fort Knox, on a tour of active duty, went to camp on the 
2d of July. 

Mr. Whitley. I have here a list of long-distance telephone calls 
made from telephone No. 160, Owensboro, Ky. 

Mr. Campbell. That is my phone. 

Mr. Whitley. Which phone is listed in the name of Business En- 
gineering Associates. I w^ould like to get you to identify a few 
numbers on here for me. 

A number frequently called from your office is Evansville, Ind., 
2-8328? 

Mr. Campbell. That happens to be the lady friend that I happen 
to know over there. 

Mr. Whitley. Purely a social call? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; you will find that quite frequently. 

Mr. Whitley. Another number is Evansville 2-3923? 

Mr. Campbell. That is my daughter. 

Mr. Whitley. Another number frequently called is 8504, Wash- 
ington, Ind., to Homer Capehart. Can you identify him for us? 

Mr. Campbell. He is vice president of the Wurlitzer Music Co., 
and I am trying to sell him a contract to show him how to increase the 
sale of his accordions. 

Mr. Whitley. Another call on this list is to Felix McWhirter, 
North Penn Street, Harrison 1473, Indianapolis, Ind. 

Mr. Campbell. He is president of the Peoples State Bank of 
Indianapolis. 



3246 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Is he associated with you in any way, in a business 
way? 

Mr. Campbell. Nothing at all in a business way. I have known 
Felix for a number of years. He has also received some of these re- 
ports. He is also a Naval Reserve officer. 

Mr. Whitley. Has he ever indicated any unusual interest in these 
reports ? 

Mr. Campbell. Enough so that I am reasonably certain that they 
have been discussed officially at Great Lakes. 

Mr. Whitley. Has he ever furnished to you any financing? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Another party called on here, I believe several 
times, I will check in a minute, is General Moseley? 

Mr. Campbell. I think you will find only one call there for him. 
You may find two calls because they asked ine to call him to arrange 
for that Indianapolis speech. 

Mr. Whitley. Another call is John Schneider? 

Mr. Campbell. John Schneider is the department chief of staff of 
the V. F. W., Kentucky. 

Mr. Whitley. That is in Louisville, Ky. ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. L. L. Lechner, Louisville? 

Mr. Campbell. He is the department commander of the V. F. W. 
of Kentucky. 

Mr. Whitley. Major Cameron, Owensboro, Ky. ? 

Mr. Campbell. He is the junior vice commander of our post. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Campbell, here is an envelope addressed to you 
at Owensboro, Ky., postmarked Cincinnati, Ohio, April 28, 1939. 
The envelope has been torn up and pieced back together, and the re- 
turn address on that envelope has been cut out of the upper left-hand 
corner. 

Mr. Campbell. That is from the Wilson Advertising Agency, 901 
Chamber of Commerce Building, and it was copy of the advertising 
material we are getting up for this gonorrhea cure. 

Mr. AVhitley. Did you cut the return address out ? 

Mr. Cainipbell. No ; it was just torn out by the girl. 

]\Ir. Whitley. Mark that as an exhibit. 

(The document was marked as "Exhibit No. 8.") 

]Mr. AVhitley. As a matter of fact, Mr. Campbell, did most of the 
envelopes, if they had a return address on them when they got to 
your office, weren't they torn off or cut off before they went in the 
waste-paper basket ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; because we have a very inquisitive nigger 
janitor out there, and wlien we get envelopes we usually tear up the 
envelopes or the mail to keep them from reading it. 

Mr. Whitley. It is a rather unusual or extreme precaution for 
just a routine business, isn't it? 

Mr. Campbell. I have always done that ; I have always done that. 

Mr. Whitley. Did your stenographer, your employee, quite often 
carry the waste paper out herself instead of letting the janitor carry 
it out? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. She didn't? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3247 

Mr. Campbell, No, sir. 

Mr, Whitley. After you went to Owensboro and opened up in this 
business, did you ever at any time around town there or in that 
vicinity use a name other than your own ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; the Dikon Co. that makes this Auramin 
and Vap compound is going to be represented out of our office, and 
M^e registered a name with the clerk as the Dikon Co., and we are 
ready to put that on the market commercially, that is when we are, 
that is the name that will be used, the name that it will be sold under. 
That name is registered but it has never been used to any extent. It 
was registered and we have some letters printed, some letterheads 
printed, which we use back and forth in our correspondence and 
also with the advertising agency, and with any correspondence that 
we have on that particular subject. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever tell anyone around town that you 
were engaged in any other business other than the business that you 
were ostensibly engaged in as a business engineer? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever tell anyone around Owensboro that 
you were an oil man? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; I have been accused of it a lot of tmies, 
but I never have been. 

The Chairman. The question is not whether you have been ac- 
cused, but whether you told anyone? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; I never told anyone that I was an oil 
man. The answer to that is definitely "No." 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever tell Mr. Ralph Klutey, a filling-sta- 
tion attendant in Owensboro, that you were an oil man ? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't even know Mr. Ealph Klutey. There is 
another James E. Campbell in Owensboro; I don't even know him. 

JNIr. Whitley. Did you ever tell :Mr. P. J. :Miller, of the First 
Owensboro Bank & Trust Co., that you were a salesman for Eeady- 
Mixed Concrete? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know Mr. Miller? 

Mr. Ca:mpbell. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever tell anyone that you worked for the 
Guenther Hardware Co.? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever tell anyone in Owensboro that you 
were a salesman for the Tell City Desk Co., Tell City, Ind. ? 

Mr. Campbell. They were a client of mine and Bob DeCou has 
thrown a lot of business my way, and we are working trying to get 
the contract for the furnishing 

Mr. Dempsey. That isn't the question. 

Mr. Whitley. I asked you if you ever told anybody you were work- 
ing for them? 

Mr. Campbell. No; that he was a client of mine, possibly, and 
they are a client of mine, and I am trying to get the contract at Fort 
Knox where I go quite frequently. 

]\Ir. Whitley. You have answered the question, Mr. Campbell. 

Was there any reason, Mr. Campbell, for you, although you were 
living in Owensboro and had your business there, any reason for you 



3248 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

going over to Calhoun, Ky., 20 miles away in another county to open 
your bank account? 

Mr. Campbell. I opened up that bank account when I was staying 
with Mr. Denhart. 

Mr. Whitley. And he lives there? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; it is only 10 miles from Calhoun. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the reason for the procedure which you 
followed quite often in cashing checks that Mr. Gilbert sent you, 
that procedure being that you would exchange your checks with 
someone around town, and then deposit their check instead of de- 
positing the check 'Mr. Gilbert sent you ? 

Mr. Cainipbell. Because when you send a check through on the New 
York bank, or when you deposit a check on a New York bank, it took 
it about 6 days to clear, and usually we were so close that I know 
the manager of the Guenther Hardware Co. very well, and he would 
take the check that Mr. Gilbert would send me and send it through 
his bank for collection, and he would give me his check and I could 
take that, and that being a local bank, it could be drawn on imme- 
diately. 

Mr. Whitley. That was the only reason for that procedure? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And you made no efforts or attempts of any kind 
to conceal your presence or activities around Owensboro? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; I have put out my card, given my business card 
to people around town and made no bones about it. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you made any contacts with the chamber of 
commerce ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; talked to the secretary of the chamber of 
commerce and explained my business, and we had to go over again 
to see him in connection with putting on the V. F, W. department 
encampment. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Campbell, I have here a copy of a letter, dated 
November 12, 1938, addressed by j^ou to Lt. Col. William Wattles, 
1726 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW.,' Washington, D. C, apparently 
with reference to your dues in the Reserve Officers' Association. 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. The next to the last paragraph of this letter states : 

I am enclosing with tbis a report of November 1 for your confidential file, 
and shall keep you advised as to further reports. 

Mr. Campbell. We didn't keep him advised. 

Mr. Whitley. Does that relate to one of your reports? 

Mr. Campbell. I think it related to one of the reports that I have 
talked about, and I asked him if there was a Colonel Moretus, and 
at that time I got a reply back that there was. 

Mr. Whitley. You say this doesn't relate to one of the Gilbert 
reports ? 

Mr. Campbell. I asked Colonel Wattles if there was a Colonel 
Moretus. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you sent him copies of any of those reports? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What is Colonel Wattle's position? 

Mr. Campbell. He is the paid secretary of the Reserve Officers' 
Association. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3249 

Mr. Whiti.ey. But he is not on your mailing list? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And you haven't sent him any of that material? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir ; he is the secretary. 

Mr. Whitley. This will be marked as an exhibit. 

(The letter was marked as "Exhibit No. 9.") 

Mr. Dempsey. AVliat was confidential about the report you sent 

him ? 

Mr. Campbell. In other words, there wasn't any reason to broad- 
cast that whole thing until we found out that it was true. 

Mr. Dempsey. A^^iether what was true ? 

Mr. Campbell. Whether anything that came through on that was 

true. 

Mr. Dempsey. What report did you send this man ? 

Mr. Campbell. I assume that it was the report about the No. 2 plan 
that was brought out. 

Mr. Dempsey. That is what Mr. Whitley has been trying to ask 
you — if you sent him any of those reports. 

Mr. Whitley. That is one of the reports that Mr. Gilbert sent you? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't know whether it is or not. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Campbell, you know whether you have sent 
Colonel Wattles a report ? 

Mr. Campbell. I gave him a report on that No. 2 plan, and that 
was last fall. 

Mr. Whitley. And that was in conjunction with the Gilbert 

reports? 

JVIr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that the only report you gave him? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And he is the secretary of the Reserve Officers' 
Association ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; because during the time we were actively 
engaged in that Colonel Englar was president, and he got quite a few 
of those reports ; he died about 2 months ago. 

Mr. Thomas. When you were actively engaged in that subversive 
work ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Right on that point, did the Reserve Officers' Asso- 
ciation ever receive any kind of instructions or an order that they 
should discontinue their activities? 

Mr. Campbell. Colonel Englar so informed me by letter that we 
had been told to disband the subversive activities committee because 
it was not for the welfare of national defense, and then I met him in 
Chicago and he said, "Campbell, I think you are right in this whole 
thing, but we have been told not to go ahead with it." 

Mr. Thomas. Told by whom? 

]\Ir. Campbell. By Colonel Englar, and he did not tell me who told 
him. 

Mr. Thomas. ^\^io was Colonel Englar? 

Mr. Campbell. President of the Reserve Officers' Association. 

Mr. Thomas. And he was the one that gave the order ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 



3250 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. But the order didn't necessarily come from th. 
Government ? 

Mr. Campbell. He issued that order after he had been to Washing- 
ton and said that he had had a conference at the War Department and 
it was decided that this subversive activities committee was detri- 
mental to the main mission of the Keserve Officers' Association. 

Mr. Thomas. So he reported that he got word while he was at the 
War Department—from the War Department 

Mr. Campbell. That he talked with the officer in charge of the 
Keserve officers' aifairs at that time, who was General Thompson's 
jDredecessor, who was General 

Mr. Thomas. What was the approximate date ? 

Mr. Campbell. January 1937. 

Mr. Whiti.ey. I show you for identification, Mr. Campbell, a certifi- 
cate, I suppose you would call it, captioned "American Nationalists, 
Inc.," signed by Dudley P. Gilbert, national commander. Is that one 
of the certificates issued to members of the organization ? 

Mr. Campbell. That Avas supposed to be used as charter for a post. 

Mr. Whitley. Mark that as an exhibit. 

(The document was marked as "Exhibit No. 10.") 

Mr. Whitley, I also show you a certificate captioned "State of 
New York, Department of State, Albany," a certificate of incorpo- 
ration. 

Mr. Campbell. That is a photostatic copy which he sent me of the 
certificate of incorporation of the American Nationalists, Inc., dated 
April 26, 1935. 

Mr. WiiiTi.EY. I ask that that be marked as an exhibit. 

(The document was marked as "Exhibit No. 11.") 

Mr. Whitley. That organization, I believe you said, is no longer in 
existence, or not active ? 

Mr. Campbell. It is not active. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you for identification, Mr. Campbell, incor- 
poration papers for the Constitutional Protective League of Indiana, 
approved and filed October 17, 1934. Is that the certificate of in- 
corporation of the organization you referred to previously? 

Mr. Campbell. That is it. 

Mr. Whitley. With the names of the incorporators ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And the purposes and objectives of that organiza- 
tion are 

Mr. Campbell. Set out there. 

Mr. Wpiitley. I ask that that be marked as an exhibit. 

(The document was marked as "Exhibit No. 12.") 

Mr. Whitley. There is considerable other literature and material 
on that organization. 

Mr. Campbell. That has been defunct since the summer of 1936. 

Mr. Whitley. I will ask you to identify this as official material 
sent out by the Constitutional Protective League ? 

Mr. Campbell. No; the Constitutional Protective League of Illinois 
never functioned. We intended to set this up as a national group, 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3251 

and tliis was liandled separately by these incorporators, and Howard 
Wade was their secretary. 

Mr. Whitley. Were they a branch or chapter of your orj^anization ? 

Mr. Campbell. They had the same purposes. This Colonel 
Methiney here was the judo^e advocate of the Reserve Officers' Associa- 
tion, and Howard Wade was also a Reserve officer, and that was set 
up separately from the Indiana organization. 

Mr. Whitley. I will not put that in the record, then ; I will with- 
draw that. 

I have here, Mr. Campbell, a file of correspondence which you had 
with Mr. Felix McWhirter, of Indianapolis, whom you have already 
identified, I believe, previously. This file, without quoting the vari- 
ous letters, indicates a very close relationship, a very friendly relation- 
ship between you and Mr. McWhirter; is that correct? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you keep in touch with him and keep him sup- 
plied with copies of the reports and advice concerning your activi- 
ties? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mv. Whitley. How long did you sav you have known Mr. Mc- 
Whirter? 

Mr. Campbell. I met him about 6 years ago, possibly 7 years 
ago. 

Mr. Whitley. For instance, here is a letter dated April 11, 1939, 
addressed to you: 

Dear Jim : From reliable information received I understand that Moseley is 
being very thoroughly shadowed. 
Sincerely, 

Felix. 

Another letter, dated April 10, 1939, addressed to you : 

Dear Jim : Please get this word to Dudley at once. 

Robert S. Judge may be reached at his apartment in New York City in the 
evenings, telephone No. Grammercy 3-8125 ; or at his law office, 270 Broadway, 
Worth 2-5430, at any time during the day. He should not be contacted at the 
Seaboard address which I gave Dudley when he was here. • 
Sincerely, 

Felix. 

Would it be a fair conclusion from the tenor of these letters to 
say that he w^as more than passingly interested in you and your 
work and your activities? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; because he is a naval intelligence officer. 

Mr. Thomas. At the present time ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his rank? 

Mr. Campbell. Lieutenant commander or commander. The Judge 
referred to here is likewise a naval-intelligence officer in New York 
City, and we were following through to develop certain things. 

Mr. Thomas. What is the name of the man in New York City? 

Mr. Campbell. Robert S. Judge. 

Mr. Thomas. And he is in the service up there at the present time ? 

Mr. Campbell. Reserve, the same as McWhirter; in the Reserve. 

Mr. Whitley. There are a number of other letters in this file, this 
McWhirter file, of the same tenor. 



3252 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. You are on very intimate terms with Mr. Mc- 
Whirter, aren't yon? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. McWhirter is a very prominent man in 
Indiana ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. I have here a correspondence folder under tlie name 
of "John Hamihon," which was taken, I believe, under subpena from 
your files and records, Mr. Campbell? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. In that folder there is a letter, dated February 6, 
1939, Owensboro, Ky., addressed as follows : 

The honorable John Hamilton, 

Cliairman, Rcpiijblican National Committee, Washington, D. C. 

My Deae Me. Hamilton : Last summer at Washington, Incl., when we dis- 
cussed the current situation, I told you some of the things that would happen 
as a result of our organization. And they did. I still secure a very interesting 
volume of information on subversive activities. 

While in Indianapolis this past week, I had a talk with our mutual friend, 
Mr. McWhirter, and he suggested that I increase my mailing list, which is 
being done to a considerable extent. 

I would like to add to my list, the national committeemen and committee- 
women from each State, and would appreciate your sending tlie names and 
addresses of those people. 

I will probably be in Washington at the chamber of commerce meeting in 
April with Mr. McWhirter, and I shall look forward to seeing you at that 
time. 

Most cordially yours, 

J. E. Campbell. 

Is that a copy of a letter you addressed to Mr. Hamilton? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; and the purpose of that was to get that list, 
because I had been requested to send a copy of General Moseley's 
speech in Indianapolis to them, and I so did. 

Mr. Thomas. Haven't you got the answer to that letter there ? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

The answer is in a letter dated February 9, 1939, from Washing- 
ton, D. C, written on the letterhead of the Republican National 
Committee, Chairman John Hamilton: 

Mr. J. E. Campbell, 

Owensboro, Ky. 
My Deae Mr. Campbeox: I have just received your kind letter of February 
6, and was very glad indeed to hear from you again. 

Naturally, I am only too glad to enclose a list of our national committeemen 
and committeewomen, as I thhik that all of these ladies and gentlemen will be 
glad to be on your mailing list. 

I shall be looking forward to having another chat with you when the cham- 
ber of commerce meets in April. 
With my kindest regards, I am, 
Yours very truly, 

John Hamilton. 

Then under date of February 13, 1939, you addressed a letter to 
Mr. Hamilton as follows: 

My Deae Mr. Hamilton : Thank you very much for the list of national 
committeemen and committeewomen. 

I believe the information we send will be most valuable to them, as the first 
thing I intend to send out will be a copy of the speech General Moseley made 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3253 

last week iu Nashville, Tenn., showing how the present administration was 
not only responsible for subversive activities in this country, but through their 
vacillating foreign policy were throwing us closer and closer to the brinli of 
war. 

I, too, am looking forward to the April meeting. 
With kindest regards, I am, 
Very truly yours, 

J. E. Campbell. 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't have the Nashville speech; I had the In- 
dianapolis speech instead. 

Mr. Thomas. What was the date of that? 

Mr. Campbell. February 13. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you sent anything else out since that time to 
that list? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; I sent those two speeches of General Moseley. 

Mr. Thomas. Nothing besides that? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; I enclosed in one of them a radio address that I 
gave myself on Army Day ; you have a copy of that. But none of those 
reports went to that crowd. 

Mr. Thomas. None of these reports? 

Mr. Campbell. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Whitley. I have a copy of a letter, dated November 21, 1938, 
to Mr. John D. Hamilton, national chairman of the Republican Com- 
mittee, Washington, D. C, reading as follows : 

Deiar Mr. Hamilton : At the cornfield rally I liad the pleasure of meeting you 
through INlr. McWhirter. 

If you recall, in our conversation I told you that Jerry O'Connell would be 
defeated in Montana and why. You said that the national committee had recently 
a request for funds from that district, l)ut that you did not think that it could be 
carried. 

I also told you that Michigan would go Republican and why, and that Ohio 
would come back into the ranks and why. Remember in your analyzing that 
this not only was a protest vote by Americans against the principles of the New 
Deal, but it is a vote by Americans who are gradually and thoroughly learning 
the cause of the chaotic conditions in this country, and who are determined to 
maintain our American Republic. 

It may be well for you to discuss with Mr. McWhirter the subject of the above 
paragraph. I think it will prove most enlightening. 

I trust we may have the pleasiu'e of meeting again, and I shall appreciate 
hearing from you at your convenience. I contemplate making another business 
trip east in January, which will take me into Washington, Philadelphia, New 
York, and the New England States. It may be possible for us to get together at 
that time. 

Willi kindest regards, I am. 
Very truly yours, 

J. E. Campbell. 

The reply to that letter, dated November 30, 1938, from Washington, 
D. C, is as follows : 

Mr. J. E. Campbell, 

Owensboro, Ky. 

Dear Mr. Campbell: Mr. McWhirter has forwarded your letter to me and I 
was glad to hear from you. 

Since you are planning to be in Washington in January, I would suggest that 
you drop me a note as to just when you are coming and we can arrange a mutually 
convenient date. 

With my kindest regards, I am. 
Sincerely yours, 

John Hamilton. 



3254 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Campbell's reply to that, dated December 6, 1938, is as follows : 

Mr. John Hamilton, 

Chairman, Republican National Comtnittee, Washington, D. C. 

My Dear Mr. Hamilton : Thank you very much for your letter of November 
30. I have ju8t returned from Indianapolis, and have made arrangements to 
be in Washington with Mr. McWhirter in the early part of January. 

I will let you know know a few days in advance the date we expect to be 
there so that we can arrange to see each other. 
Most cordially yours, 

J. E. Campbeu:.. 

Mr. Campbell. That January and April meeting did not materialize. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you ever solicit funds from Mr. Hamilton ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir ; I did not. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you ever get any funds from him ? 

Mr. Campbfxl, No, sir; I did not. I told John Hamilton at the 
corn field conference that the Catholic vote of Montana would defeat 
Jerry O'Connell because they had a picture of Jerry giving a Com- 
munist salute. 

I also told him that the C. I. O. activities in Ohio and Michigan 
had been so radical and had disgusted the decent law-abiding citizens 
of those two States to the point where they would vote, not a Repub- 
lican ticket, but a protest vote. 

Mr. Whitley. I will ask that that file be marked as an exhibit, 
exhibit 13. 

(The file was marked as "Exhibit 13.") 

The Chairman. Does Mr. Hamilton know the character of reports 
that you had ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Why, then, did he accede to your proposition to 
furnish a list of the national committeemen and committeewomen ? 

Mr. Campbell. Because that request was made to send a copy of the 
speech that General Moseley made on the 29th of December in Indi- 
anapolis. 

The Chairman. Let's see if the correspondence reads that way. 

Mr. Campbell. Mr. Hamilton did not know a thing about these 
reports. He felt I was kind of a prophet when I told him that Jerry 
O'Connell would be defeated in Montana, and I knew the sentiment 
of the people in Michigan and Ohio, and I have been to Legion meet- 
ings, and I knew it wouldn't have made any difference if there had 
been a complete Republican administration in there. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Hamilton anything 
about the American Nationalists? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Then you don't know whether Mr. Hamilton knew 
anything about tlie American Nationalists or not? 

Mr. Campbell. I do not. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether Mr. Hamilton was familiar 
with the contact that you had with Mr. Gilbert ? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; I don't think Mr. Hamilton ever knew a thing 
about that, if he did he got it from some other source. 

Mr. Thomas. You didn't discuss at any time with Mr. Hamilton 
what you were doing in Kentucky or Indiana ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3255 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. The thing I discussed with ISIr. Hamilton 
at the cornfield conference occupied about 5 or 10 minutes of time. 
He said, "How is Montana?" 

He had been talking to Mr. McWhirter in my presence. I said, '^I 
think Jerry O'Connell will be defeated." 

The Chairman. Right in that connection may I read your letter 
again for the benefit of the committee. This is vonr letter of Febru- 
ary 6, 1939. 

My Dear Mr. Hamilton : Last summer at Washington, Ind., when we dis- 
cussed the current situation — 

What did you mean by "current situation?" 

Mr. Campbell. The political situation, the C. I. O., I discussed the 

C. I. o. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

I told you some of the things that would happen as a result of our 
organization. 

"WHiat do you mean by "some of the things?" Do you mean the 
sending out of these reports ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. What else? 

Mr. Campbell, I was talking straight Republican politics. 

Mr. Thomas. Are you a Republican? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You mean, in other words, that the use of the 
words "our organization" referred to the Republican Party? 

Mr. Campbell. I was talking to him 

The Chairman (interposing). And you were referring, by "our 
organization," to the Republican Party rather than your organiza- 
tion ? 

Mr. Campbell, Yes, sir. 

The Chairman, Is McWhirter a Democrat or a Republican? 

Mr, Campbell. He is a Republican, naturally, he was at that 
meeting. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

And they did. I still secure a very interesting volume of information on 
subversive activities. 

How does that connect him ? 

Mr. Campbell. Because .he knew I was chairman of that committee. 

The Chairman. Let's connect the two. You said, "I told you some 
of the things that would happen as a result of our organization," 

Mr, Campbell, That is the Republican Party. 

The Chairinian. Then you go on down and say, "I still secure a very 
interesting volume of information on subversive activities." 

Mr, Campbell, He said, "How do you arrive at that conclusion?" 

Mr, Dempsey, I would like to know something about the answer to 
your 

The Chairman (interposing). The point is this, you use here the 
"words "our organization," which you now say means the Republican 
Party? 

Mr, Campbell, That is right. 

94931— 39— vol. 5 6 



3256 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Then you follow with the sentence : 

And they did. I still secure a very interesting volume of information on 
subversive activities. 

Mr. Campbell. Well, that is a badly written letter because I told 
him I had been chairman of the Reserve Officers' Subversive Activities 
Committee, and that I had plenty of information on what the C. I. O. 
had done. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

While in Indianapolis this past week I had a talk with our mutual friend, Mr. 
McWhirter, and he suggested that I increase my mailing list, which is being done 
to a considerable extent. 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 
The Chairman (continuing) : 

I would like to add to my list the national committeemen and committeewomen 
from each State, and would appreciate your sending the names and addresses of 
these people. 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. Now you here are talking about subversive activi- 
ties which you have secured information on, and you are talking 
about these reports of Gilbert, aren't you ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. What other subversive activities were you talking 
about ? 

Mr. Campbell. Oh, the C. I. O., I had told him 

Mr. Dempsey (interposing). We don't care to go into the C. I. O. 

Mr. Thomas. Let the witness answer the question in his own way. 
He is trying to answer Martin's question. 

Mr. Dempsey. You are talking about your mailing list — what 
mailing list are you talking about? 

Mr. Campbell. Mr. McWhirtei-* asked me if I would build up a 
mailing list to send out General Moseley's speech, and I wrote to 
Mr. Hamilton and asked him for the names of the committeemen 
from each State. Now I have not discussed any of these reports 
with John Hamilton. I had told liim that I had spent 5 years on 
subversive activities. 

Mr. Thomas. And don't you believe that the Republican Party 
and John Hamilton, the chairman, would be naturally interested 
in these subversive activities? 

Mr. Campbell. No; I wouldn't give himi the information because 
I didn't think it was a political subject. 

Mr. Thomas. I mean, isn't any major political party, or shouldn't 
any major political party in the United States be interested in un- 
American activities? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't think it is a political issue at all; I think 
it is strictly a nonpartisan issue. 

The Chairman. Let me go back and let me ask the witness some 
more question. 

Mr. Campbell. My letter is ambiguous, as you will read that, it 
isn't a connected sequence of thought. 

The Chairman. Let's see if it is ambiguous. In your letter of 
February 13, 1939, you say : 

Thank you very much for the list of national committeemen and committee- 
women. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3257 

I believe the information we send will be most valuable to them, as the 
first thing I intend to send out will be a copy of the speech General Moseley 
made last week in Nashville, Tenn., showing how the present administration 
was not only responsible for subversive activities in this country but, through 
their vacillating foreign policy, were throwing us closer and closer to the brink 
of war. 

Now you say that the "first thing" is General Moseley's speech. 
What were the other subsequent things? 

Mr. Campbell. The Nashville speech and the other was the In- 
dianapolis speech. 

The Chairman. But you said the "first thing." Why emphasize 
the word "first"? 

Mr. Campbell. Because I intended to send these speeches of Gen- 
eral Moseley. 

The Chairman. That was all you intended to send out? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Then why did you use the word "first"? 

Mr, Campbell. The first speech was the Nashville speech. 

The Chairman. And you didn't intend to send out any of these 
reports that you got from Gilbert ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; I didn't. 

Mr. Mason. And you didn't send any of these reports out to the 
committeemen? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. I sent those speeches of General Moseley. 

Mr. Dempsey. Did you send anything to Mr. McWhirter? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; he was advised constantly for the reason I 
told you; I had worked very closely with him on this subject, be- 
cause it was something I felt was too big for me to handle on the 
Gilbert reports. 

The Chairman. When you wrote to Mr. Hamilton on February 6, 
1939, the information you were speaking about was information on 
subversive activities, was it not ? 

Mr. Campbell. On the C. I. O. 

The Chairman. But you said "subversive activities." 

Mr. Campbell. That is all right. 

The Chairman. Was it confined solely to the C. I. O. ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That was all that was on your mind ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. I was discussing with him my reason for the 
deductions that I had arrived at when I made the statement that 
Ohio and Michigan would go Republican this time because of the 
revulsion of the people in that State against the C. I. O. 

The Chairman. In other words, as evidenced by your letter here, 
you talked to Mr. Hamilton about subversive activities? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; and I call the C. I. O. a subversive activity. 

The Chairman. But you were talking to him about subversive ac- 
tivities ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you told him that you had considerable infor- 
mation with reference to subversive activities, didn't you ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you asked him to furnish you a mailing list 
so that you could send that information out? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir ; so I could send out those speeches, because 
I had been asked to do that in Indianapolis, 



3258 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. You talked to him about subversive activities, the 
information you had on subversive activities? 
Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. And you follow in the next paragraph and say: 

While in Indianapolis this past week, I had a talk with our mutual friend, 
Mr. McWhirter, and he suggested that I increase my mailing list, which is being 
done to a considerable extent. 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. That was for the purpose of getting this informa- 
tion on subversive activities out? 

Mr. Campbell. No; to send out General Moseley's speeches only, 
because I told you earlier in this session that I had not sent a single 
one of those reports except to people whom I personally knew. I 
don't know any except two of the national committeemen and women, 
and they are the ones from Indiana. 

The Chairman. When you were talking to Mr. Hamilton you were 
talking to him about information on subversive activities. Now, w^hat 
relationship did subversive activities have to do with General 
Moseley's speeches? 

Mr. Campbell. Because General Moseley covered it in his speech. 

The Chairman. And that was the only information you had ? 

Mr. Campbell. That was what I was going to send him. 

The Chairman. So when you were talking about the information 
you had on subversive activities, you were talking about General 
Moseley's speeches? 

Mr. Campbell. No; about the information on the C. I. O., and 
what took place in Michigan and Ohio. 

The Chairman. Did you tell him about General Moseley's 
speeches ? 

Mr. Campbell. That was last August at the corn-field conference. 

The Chairman. You didn't have General Moseley's speech in mind 
when you wrote this, did you ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. This letter was written in February. 
I talked to John Hamilton in August at the cornfield conference. 
Naturally the subject of subversive activities came up because I said 
I thought the Communist Party was responsible for the C. I. O. 
activities. 

Now when I talked to him, to bring it to his mind where he had 
met me, I covered that subject, and I had been asked in Indianapolis 
to fyet the list of those names so that I could send General Moseley's 
speeches out. 

The Chairman. When you talked to John Hamilton, did you 
mention General Moseley's name? 

IVIr. Campbell. Not personally. 

The Chairman. You didn't mention the speech at all ? 

Mr. Campbell. He hadn't made the speech. 

The Chairman. And you didn't mention General Moseley's speech 
or have it in mind when you wrote this letter ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; that is what I had in mind to send out. If 
I made myself clear it is this way. When I talked subversive activi- 
ties to him in August, I met him in the midst of about 40,000 people 
out there, all trying to talk to him, and he asked me, after he had 



UN-AMERICAN I'ROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3259 

talked to McWhirter about financing, and met me, he said, "We have 
got requests from Montana." 

I said, "Thunder, I think that Jerry O'Connell will be defeated in 
Montana," and I told him why. I also told him that I thought they' 
would carry Ohio and Michigan. 

The Chairman. I want to be courteous, and I want you to be 
frank. 

Mr. Campbell. When I wrote this, I had no reference to subversive^ 
activities reports, but to bring to mind our conversation that we had, 
and the fact that I had been asked to send out these speeches of 
General Moseley, and that is what I was trying to cover. It may 
sound foolish. 

The Chairman. So that when you wrote this letter you had in 
mind only General Moseley's speech? 

Mr. Campbell. That is I'ight. 

The Chairman. Then when he wrote back and told you he was 
sending you the list, he did that in order to furnish you with an op- 
portunity to disseminate General Moseley's speech? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. And it was with his approval that General Mose- 
ley's speech was to be sent to the national committeemen and com- 
mittee women of the Republican Party? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right, because I say there that I want to 
send out General Moseley's speech. 

The Chairman. Then in your letter of February 13, after he had 
sent you the list, you say that the "first thing" you intend to do is to 
send out General Moseley's speech? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right ; the speech of February that he made 
in Nashville. 

The Chairman. Didn't you have in mind something else? 

JNlr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Why do you use the word "first" ? 

Mr. Campbell. Because the man had made three speeches and I 
Avanted the Nashville speech first. 

The Chairman. You don't say that; you say, "The first thing I 
intend to send out will be a copy of the speech General Moseley made 
last week in Nashville, Tenn." 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. So you at no time had in mind sending out any 
other information except General Moseley'g speech? 

Mr. Campbell. Absolutely not ; those reports I have never sent out 
and I have never intended, or would I, to anybody except that list. 

The Chairman. Did you know at that time that General Moseley 
was going to make other speeches? 

Mr. Campbell. I knew that he had been invited to speak. 

The Chairman. Did you know he was going to make other speeches 
of your own personal knowledge? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You had to know that in order to 

Mr. Campbell. He told me he was going to make a speech in Boston 
and one in Philadelphia and was going out to the Pacific coast; that 
he has been invited on a tour out tliere. 



3260 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Did yoii tell Mr. Hamilton that General Moseley 
had a number of speeches to make ? 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't tell him how many he was going to make. 

The Chairman. But you told him that he was going to make some? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you furnish General Moseley with any of the 
information that was contained in those speeches he made? 

Mr, Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did he have any of the statements or any informa- 
tion based upon any of your reports? 

Mr. Campbell. I have given him a couple or two or three reports, 
but they were not included in any of the speeches that General 
Moseley made. 

The Chairman. Were any of the conclusions that he drew or state- 
ment made based upon those reports? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; he has a hind of his own, and I don't think you 
can convince him of anything. I know I couldn't convince him of 
anything. He is a pretty hard^oiled officer — about one of the 
hardest. 

The Chairman. When you got this list you didn't mail out any- 
thing but General Moseley's speech? 

Mr. Campbell. I also included a copy of a speech I made. 

The Chairman. In the copy of the speech you made, did you have 
some of the information that you got from these reports? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. What did you have in that speech ? 

Mr. Campbell. You have a copy of it here, my speech on Army 
Day. That was a very brief radio address of only 7 minutes, in which 
I spoke of national defense for this country. 

The Chairman. This speech was delivered April 6, 1939; is that 
right ? 

iVlr. Campbell. Yes; on Army Day. 

Mr. Thomas. And did you send this to that list of national com- 
mitteemen ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; I think that was included with the last speech. 

Mr. Thomas, That "stas after election time? 

Mr. Campbell. Tliat was just last month. 

The Chairman. So when you say here — 

Last summer at Washington, IncL, when we discussed the current situation, I 
told you some of the tilings that would happen as a result of our organization. 

What were some of the things that would happen after February 
6, 1939? 

Mr. Campbell. Not February 6. 

The Chairman. No; not February 6. You are referring now to 
your conversation in Washington, Ind., which was in August. 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; that is right. Naturally, if you met me at 
one time in a crowd and I was trying to recall that to your mind, 
in writing you a leiter, I would mention what had occurred then. 

The Chairman. What did you mean when you said, "I still secure 
a very interesting volume of information on subversive activities," 
so what information were you referring to? 

Mr. Campbell. Some of the activities of the C. I. O. which I dis- 
cussed with him. I did not discuss these reports. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3261 

The Chairman. You didn't have in mind any of these reports? 

Mr. Campbell. No; nor would I discuss them with him. 

The Chairman. Where Avere you getting the other information? 

Mr. Campbell. From some of these Keserve officers that had func- 
tion with me, that had been sending me information. 

The Chairman. Do you have anything on that in the file ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; all kinds of booklets and pamphlets on the 
current situation, pamphlets put out by the C. I. O. and Communist 
Party in various places. 

The Chairman. So your purpose in increasing — did you increase 
your mailing list? 

JNIr. Campbell. Just to that group to whom I sent out Genei-al 
Moseley's speech, but I did not increase the mailing list on the other, 
on the reports; you have the entire list on the reports. 

The Chairman. How many names do you have in your file alto- 
gether, on your mailing list? You have some lists that you said you 
didn't mail your Gilbert reports to ? 

Mr. Campbell. You mean that I sent those other reports to ? 

The Chairman. Anything, all the mailing lists you have got, what 
is the total number of the persons on those mailing lists? 

Mr. Campbell. You mean the prospects I was developing, to send 
form letters to? 

The Chairman, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Campbell. There isn't over 200 names altogether. 

The Chairman. How many national committee men and women 
did you have — how many names ? 

Mr. Campbell. Two from each State; I think there were about 100 
of those. 

The Chairman. Is that included in the 200 you are talking about? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

There are about 40 that receive reports, and there must be 40 or 50, 
thei'e may be more, but offhand — you have got the files. 

JNIr. Thomas. And did you send this speech, this Army Day speech, 
to those Republican national committeemen and committeewomen ? 

]\Ir. Campbell. Yes ; this Army Day speech. 

Mr. Thomas. This is a very interesting speech, Martin. I haven't 
read it thoroughly. I want to read one sentence to you. He says : 

Thomas Jefferson, foniider of the Democratic Party, ami au outstanding 
patriot, never considered the United States in the role of "World saver" — 

and then he goes on to quote Jefferson many times. This seems almost 
like a Democratic speech. 

]\Ir. Campbell. After all, that is an American speech. 

Mr. Dempset. What Avere the subversive activities that you found 
the C. I. O. engaging in that you told Mr. Hamilton about ? 

Mr. Campbell. I told him that when the General Motors strike was 
pulled that many of the organizers in the C. I. O. were members of the 
Communist Party, because I had been working up there in Michigan 
at that time. At that time our subversive activities committee w^as 
functioning. 

Mr. Dempsey. Did you have a list of them ? 

Mr. Campbell. Not an entire list of them. 

Mr. Dempsey. Did you have any list at all of them ? 



3262 UN-AMERICAN mOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Campbell. I knew that Maurice Sugar and Louis Weinstone 
and some of those who were members of the Communist Party were 
also very active in the C. I. O. sit-down strike, and upon that I said it 
was a subversive organization, and if we had the money to chase it 
down we would find that that was the case; but that the decent citizens 
of Michigan were completely disgusted with it and were going to 
repudiate it. 

Mr. Mason. We checked all that with this committee last year. 

Mr. Thomas. We checked it at election time, too. 

The Chairman. Now, if I may ask this question : Outside of the 
money you got from Campbell, you say you didn't get any money 
from any other source — I mean from Gilbert ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. You didn't get any money from McWhirter? 

Mr. Campbell. Not a penny. 

The Chairman. Did you make any money on the outside in your 
business at all ? 

Mr. Campbell. A little. 

The Chairman. How much did you make during that period ? 

Mr. Campbell. You mean since I have been working on this thing? 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Campbell. I haven't made anything on it. 

The Chairman. This has been your only source of income ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And in return for the money that ]\Ir. Gilbert gave 
you, all that you did was to transmit this report to some 40 people? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. In other words, it cost Mr. Gilbert $8,000 to get 
these reports sent to 40 people in this country ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. And you weren't compensated for sending the 
other material. This $8,000 didn't include anything you did with 
reference to the other material that you sent out? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. That was just a gratuitous proposition? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; because I worked with Mr. McWliirter a long 
time, and I sent those things out at his request. He said he thought 
it would be a good idea to bring before the people the fact that a 
prominent man felt the same way as we did on this subject. 

Mr. Dempsey. Does Mr. Gilbert know how many people you are 
sending his reports to ? 

Mr. Campbell. He knows approximately. I have only sent those 
confidential reports to those whom I know personally, people that 
I have sat across the table from and talked to. The one exception 
was when Mr. May asked me to send one to Jim Cooke, and I did 
that, and then I arranged to meet Mr. Cooke. 

Mr. Dempsey. What did you hope to accomplish by such a few? 

Mr. Campbell. Those people were in this position : In case trouble 
started in this country, to have enough influence to bring down to 
you people here in Washington to show you that there was a danger 
taking place in America, and I still didn't think that the thing had 
reached the stage where there was any dynamite to be exploded yet. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3263 

The Chairman. In other words, you were only choosing people 
who were very influential and in key positions to disseminate this 
information ? 

Mr. Campbell. Not to disseminate it ; it was for their information 
only. 

The Chairman. Did you say anything in there that they mustn't 
talk to anybody and tell other people what the contents of these 
reports were? 

Mr, Campbell. When I met them I said, "I will send you these 
reports from time to time as they come through, and they are confi- 
dential information for your guidance only." 

Mr. VooRHis. Could I ask one question ^ 

Mr. Campbell, these reports were not only reports as to what was 
going to hapi^en, or something like that, but it seems to me that they 
were reports that contained, as their most important piece of infor- 
maion, tlie fact that these events, which on their surface might not be 
particularly significant, were events that were being engineered by a 
certain group of people who had planned or plotted to overthrow the 
Government of the United States? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. VooRHTS. Now, then, I can understand how you would say, 
"Well, now, this fellow gives us information and then something hap- 
pens," and how you could say, "Well, here is a man that apparently 
has inside sources of information so that he can forecast things," but 
on what basis were you sure enough that these events were being engi- 
neered by a grouj) of people for the purj^ose of plotting the over- 
throw of the Government so that you were willing to send out this 
information ? Why were you sure of the second thing ? 

Mr. Campbell. Because I had confidence in Mr. Gilbert. 

Mr. VooRHis. But Gilbert wasn't getting these things himself, you 
knew that? 

Mr. Campbell. I knew that. 

Mr. VooRHis. He was depending on someone else that you didn't 
even know? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; and I had not sent any of those reports because 
they sounded fantastic, until things would happen to show that 
certain phases of it were taking place. 

Mr. VooRHis. But, Mr. Campbell, if some of those reports sounded 
fantastic to you, then I think you would have been sufficiently sus- 
picious of the rest of them so that you would have hesitated to make 
it a matter of information to other people, and particularly when 
they were people that were close to you and had confidence in you, 
and who would probably feel that they could trust what you told 
them. 

Now, as I say, I can see if they predicted that a certain thing 
was going to happen, and it did happen, I can see why you would 
say, "Well, this fellow has confidential information," but I can't see 
how you would jump to the assumption that this was a plot, engi- 
neered by certain people whose names were mentioned. 

Mr. Mason. And deliberately create the inference that these things 
happened as a result of the influence of these people. ' 

Mr. VooRHis. Exactly. 



3264 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Did you think you were rendering a patriotic 
service in doing this? 

Mr. Campbell. I did; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you think that to send out an absolutely un- 
verified report — you didn't even know who made the report, did you ? 

Mr. Campbell. No. 

The Chairman. You knew that Gilbert didn't know whether the 
facts were true; you had talked to Gilbert, you knew that Gilbert 
wasn't vouching for a thing in those reports ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. Here you were sending out absolutely unverified, 
unsupported reports, you say in order to do a patriotic service to 
the country. 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chapman. Don't you think this is dangerous propaganda 
to put out over this country? 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't over the country, I placed it in the hands 
of those fellows so they could observe and watch and see whether 
those things began to happen. 

The Chairman. Don't you think that is more dangerous than if 
you made it public? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't know, maybe I erred. 

Mr. VooRHis. It wasn't a question of whether those things had 
happened or not, that is absolutely unimportant. The question is 
whetlier they happened because a group of people were plotting in the 
overthrow of the Government, that was the significant thing about 
it, and I want to say this much further, that everybody knows that 
the thing that is our real concern and danger in this country is that 
people on either extreme, no matter which one it is, people on either 
extreme will be able to convince the great mass of the American 
people that the other extreme is about ready to pop something that 
is going to bust things wide open in the United States. As soon as 
the people feel that, then it is possible to sweep them off their feet. 

Mr. Campbell. That is a good point you make there. There is 
one which Colonel Low made, and elaborated on in Columbus, Ohio, 
3 or 4 years ago. 

Mr. Dempsey. Let's not go into that. 

The Chairman. The point is that you are speaking for one ex- 
treme, and, frankly, I can't see how you can justify in your own 
mind, on the basis of patriotism, how you can justify sending out, 
say to 40 people,, propaganda which is of the most dangerous type 
in this country, when you nor Gilbert took the pains to find out if it 
was true before you sent it out. I can't see how you could be 
justified from that angle, and from a financial standpoint I can't 
see how, on that information alone, that anybody would spend upward 
of $8,000 to send it out to only 40 people. 

Mr. Campbell, (jilbert knows I am going to build an engineering 
business back, and it is going to be a darn good return for him. 

The Chairman. But he didn't take any notes. 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Thoma's. Did you or Gilbert ever try to check up on this 
informer in that club, or not? 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3265 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether Gilbert did ? 

Mr. Campbell. I suppose he did because he said he knew this 
fellow. 

Mr. Thomas. He told you he knew this fellow ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. You said this man was located in a club, an employee 
in a club. 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether this man got his information 
in this club or whether he got the information from places outside of 
the club, or not? 

JNIr. Campbell. I think I can best answer that in a letter which is 
some place in that file, received from Mr. Gilbert, in which this infor- 
mant told him that he had been taken off the job for a while because 
they were suspicious of him, and then he had been invited to go back 
or to come back to work. 

Mr. Thomas. Did he get the information in the club ? 

Mr. Campbell. In the club. 

Mr. Thomas. Exclusively? 

Mr. Cajmpeell. That is what Mr. Gilbert told me. 

Mr. Thomas. Didn't you tell Cooke that he got the information 
not only in the club but out of private residences of some of these 
people ? 

Mr. Campbell. On two occasions he was taken out, and it is in the 
letters there, taken out to a private meeting which was held,, one, I 
think, on Long Island, and another one up at Fiftli Avenue. 

Mr. Thojnias. Did ]\Ir. Gilbert tell you where these private meetings 
were held — I mean at whose residences they were held ? 

Mr. Camprell. One of them in that letter was that he had /been 
taken up to Mr. Sir William "Wiseman's, and the other is in the letter, 
I forgot the name, but it was held on Long Island. 

Mr. Thomas. You don't recall the other name? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. I want to digress. Does either the investigator or 
Mr. Whitley know the name of this other place on Long Island ? 

]Mr. Whitley. It is in one of the reports. The report, based on the 
informer's conversations outside the club, identifies the place where 
the meeting was held, where it is in a private residence. 

]Mr. Thomas. Who owned that private residence? 

Mr. Whitlet. The parties are named in the report; I remember 
Sir William Wiseman, and there were one or two others, individuals 
whose names are mentioned in these reports. 

Mr. Thomas. How many reports did you get from Gilbert, all told? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't know. 

Mr. Thomas. Approximately. 

Mr. Campbell. I couldn't even guess. 

Mr. Thomas. Were there 20 or 50? 

Mr. Campbell. Oh, there might have been a hundred. 

Mr. Dempsey. About how many a month would you get ? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, I would send out an average of about 4 that 
I would pick out. I would say during the month that they might 
average — some months there would be 4 or 5, and some months 6 or 8 
or 10. 

Mr. Thomas. You got about a hundred all told? 



3266 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Thomas. They were on what general subjects or generally on 
what subjects were they ? 

Mr. Cainipbell. Somtimes it would be things that were happening 
around New York that lie himself would observe. 

Mr. Thomas. That Gilbert himself would observe ? 

INIr. Campbell. Yes; like attending Communist rallies, and things 
like that. The majority of them were reports from this informant. 

Mr. Thomas. From the informant ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; I would say that they comprised 80 per- 
cent of the reports. 

Mr. Thomas. And what kind of information was included from 
the informant ? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, that is the report as written in longhand. 

Mr. Thomas. AVith what did it have to do, mostly ? 

Mr. Campbell. It had to do with the activities or plans that they 
were trying to carry through. 

Mr. Thomas. This plot to change the form of government some 
way or somehow ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Thomas. Getting back to this informant again, did Gilbert 
ever give you a description of this informant? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir ; nor did he ever tell me his name. 

Mr. Thomas. That is all. 

The Chairman. Resume, Mr. Whitley. 

]\Ir. Whitley. Mr. Campbell, I show you a mimeographed copy of a 
report dated March 1, 1939, consisting of a page and a half, single- 
spaced typewriting. Tliis report goes into great detail with refer- 
ence to plan No. 2, so-called, whicli was the plan calling for internal 
revolution. It goes into great detail with reference to military 
strength that can be summoned by the group allegedly plotting or 
planning the revolution, and the way they could sabotage military 
groups and facilities, comnumications, and so forth. I ask you if 
that repoi't is as stated by me, as outlined by me ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; and I have the original here. 

Mr. Whitley. Tliis report will be marked as confidential exhibit — 
no; it has already been marked as "Confidential Exliibit No. 1." 

I have here, ISIr. Campbell, an original letter, dated March 14, 1939, 
on the letterhead of the Atlanta Biltmore, Atlanta, Ga., addressed to 
you by Gen. George Van Horn Moseley. This letter, which was 
written by General Moseley to you approximately 2 weeks after the 
date of the report I just referred to, states in the next to the last 
paragraph : 

I was particularly interested in the report of March 1 that you sent me. 
It strikes me it would he well to let General Craig read that report, hut if I 
send it on to him I should like to be able to tell him briefly and confidentially 
something of tlie source and probable reliability of the information given. 
Would there be any objection to this? 

]Mr. Campbell. Do you have my reply to that? 
Mr. Whitley. Your reply to that letter, which is dated March 16, 
1939, page 2, reads as follows : 

Now relative to General Craig. As discussed with you in Atlanta, I am 
leaving this matter entirely to your discretion. You know the source of those 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3267 

G-2 reports. You know the personnel comprising the meetings, you know that 
subsequent events have proven every single report correct. If General Craig 
can be given this in the \itmost confidence, so that it does not reach the admin- 
istration, because I believe he should be so advised. Because a time may come 
when a demur will have to be taken by the Army. But in the event that this 
information gets beyond him, it means the life of the operative now situated 
within their center ! 

My personal belief is that it would be much better to discuss it with the 
general personally upon your next visit to Washington, give him the contents, 
but do not give him a copy of the report. 

Will you explain that? 

Mr. Campbell. That explains itself. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your reference here in your reply to 
"G-2" — "You know the source of those G-2 reports" ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is a way of saying intelligence reports, that 
is just an Army phrase that is used by any military man. G-2 means 
intelligence. 

Mr. Dempsey. Were you trying to make him understand that that 
was where you were getting those reports? 

Mr. Campbell. That was just our way of describing things. 

Mr. Dempsey. Describing what, the intelligence officers? 

Mr. Campbell. When I said a "G-2 report," I meant that that was 
a confidential report, in other words, it was something that hadn't 
been broadcast. And I explained to the general, when I was down 
on the Aui-amin matter, that I was getting these reports from a chap 
in New York, and he w^as getting them from someone in the Har- 
monie Club, and that was what I had been told. 

Mr. Thomas. That is that club in New York ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know anything about that club ? 

Mr. Campbell. I have only seen the outside of the building. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you ever been in it yourself ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. I will ask that this file be marked as "Exhibit 14." 

(The file referred to was marked as "Exhibit No. 14.") 

Mr. Thomas. This plot which has been mentioned here today by 
you and other witnesses, did you discuss this plot at some length with 
Gilbert, did you discuss the participants in the plot at some length 
with Gilbert? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't quite understand the question. 

Mr. Thomas. If a plot existed, somebody must have been the plotter? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right, 

Mr. Thoimas. Did you discuss the names with Gilbert wlio were in 
on this plot? 

Mr. Campbell. He had been sending me the reports through to me 
for a number of months, and I was familiar with the ones that he 
was discussing in the reports. 

Mr. Thomas. And those reports which haven't been read here 
today incidentally contain the names of many of the plotters? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; of the ones that were in that March 1 
report. 

INIr. Thomas. And those plotters are supposed to be prominent in 
the United States? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right; some of them are. 



3268 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. You never checked up to find out whether any of 
those people ever did enter into any kind of a plot? 

Mr. Campbell. It would be pretty difficult for me to do that, and 
that is wdiy I hadn't broadcast any information. 

Mr. VooRHis. But, Mr. Campbell, the very fact that that would be 
difficult, assuming that these people that you sent these things to 
were your friends, I should think you w^ould be hesitant about send- 
ing them things as important and as dynamic as these reports were. 

Mr. Campbell. That was the most dynamic one that came through. 

JMr. VooRHis. Let's get this. The source of these things is a fel- 
low" that you didn't know, you don't know his name; as a matter 
of fact you don't even know he exists. He is supposed to be in this 
plot, but nobody know\s how he gets the information, whether these 
people make these terrific statements in front of him or not, which 
is hard to believe that they would make them in front of anybody. 
And nobody knows who he is or how he gets his information or where 
it comes from. This fellow is supposed to be giving this to Mr. 
Gilbert. Mr. Gilbert, himself, as you say, doesn't know for sure 
about this man, and you don't even know^ wdio he is, and j^ou get 
these reports from ]Mr. Gilbert out of a source like that, and still you 
send them to these people. I don't see how you can 

The Chairman (interposing). Of course now, expressing my own 
view and being perfectly fair with you, I don't think you have come 
clean with this committee because your testimony does not coincide 
with previous testimony here. You have stated under your oath that 
this building was being built by you. 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir ; it is, and Mr. Gilbert is 

The Chairman (interposing). In that respect you have absolutely 
contradicted another material witness. Why not tell this committee 
the full situation? 

Mr. Campbell. INIr. Gilbert is furnishing the money for the house 
I am building. 

Mr. Mason. Martin, as I remember the testimony of the previous 
witness, he was supposed to be building this house. 

The Chairman. But for the other man. 

Mr. Mason. But in his own name, and so forth. 

The Chairman. He was building it for the other man. 

Now the point I am saying is this, you are under oath, this com- 
mittee expects you and expects other witnesses to tell the truth to 
it, but when you fail to tell the truth you do yourself great wrong 
as well as the committee. Now, I am not speaking for the committee, 
I don't know what their reactions are, but I believe in being perfectly 
frank. When a man tells me something that I have already heard 
definitely contradicted by another witness who ought to know, then 
I am included to wonder whether or not these other things you are 
saying are correct. 

Mr. Campbell. Here is the situation. The house is being built by 
me in my name. Mr. Gilbert is furnishing the money. The reason 
he is furnishing the money is he has said several weeks or months ago 
that if something ever happens in the way of a revolt in this coun- 
try, "I don't want my family in New York City, I want a place where 
they can go." 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3269 

The Chairman. Why didn't you tell us that ? 

Mr. Campbell. I am building the house, I will pay back the money, 
all of it. 

Mr. Thomas. You said he was going to take a mortgage on the 
house ? 

Mr. Campbell. Well? 

Mr. Thomas. And live in it himself? 

Mr. Campbell. As soon as the house is built I intend to give him 
a mortgage on that house. 

Mr. Thomas. And he will hold the mortgage and live in it himself 
and hold his own mortgage? 

Mr. Campbell. He won't live there until some trouble happens in 
this country. 

Mr. Dempsey. Might he not want to go there and use it as a hunting 
lodge ? 

Mr. Campbell. He could come down there as my guest, if he did, 
because I intend to live there. 

Mr. Dempsey. The witness testified that he was going to do that. 

Do you have any knowledge that on any of the dates that you have 
had information that these various prominent men collected in New 
York at this club — tliat a single, solitary one of them was at that club ? 

Mr. Campbell. You mean my personal knowledge? 

Mr. Dempsey. Yes ; or Mr. Gilbert's personal knowledge ? 

Mr. Campbell. Not my personal knowledge. 

Mr, Dempsey. Does he know ? 

Mr. Campbell. That I cannot answer. 

Mr. Dempsey. And you are getting about $500. with some addi- 
tionals, tiiis otlier man is getting a certain amount of money for month 
after month, year in and year out, and he hasn't taken the trouble — 
no one has taken the trouble — to check a single, solitary statement in 
the reports that you are getting. You could certainly find out if 
those men collected there on the night they are supposed to have. 
You could cover it for one montli for $500, and you would know that. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, to come absolutely clean with 
this committee, haven't you sent this to more than 40 people ? 

Mr, Campbell. No, sir. Let's count this list. Here it is. 

Mr, AYhitley. May I ask this question: If you only sent those 
reports to 30 or 40 people, why was it necessary to mimeograph 
them ? You could run off 3 or 4 carbon copies in no time at all. 

Mr. Campbell. I had one girl, who is a slow stenographer. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, she could even then probably make four of five 
copies, around a page or a page and a half. 

Mr. Thomas. Who did your mimeograph work? 

Mr. Campbell. Miss Brown, my stenographer. 

Mr, Thomas. She did the stencils as well as handle the machine ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you a mimeograph machine in your office? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; a second-hand one. 

The Chairman. And isn't it further a fact that you and Mr. Mc- 
Whirter discussed this whole plan in advance, and the plan was to 
disseminate information over this country to raise racial prejudice 
and hatred? 



3270 UN-AMERICAN TROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Campbell. Absolutely not. 

The Chairman. And didn't yon oet together witli Mr. McWhirter, 
and wasn't this whole thine; planned ? 

Mr. Campbell. Absolutely not. 

The Chairman. And isn't it a further fact that the understanding 
was that the people who got these reports were in turn to make use of 
them in the most effective way ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; I never discussed a racial issue with Mr. 
McWhirter in my life. 

The Chairman. What is in here except racial issues ? 

]Mr. Campbell. I am not interested in racial issues; I don't care 
wli'ther a man is a Scotchman, an Irishman, or of Jewish descent; a 
Catholic, a Protestant, a Presbyterian, or an atheist. 

The Chairman. Did you ever undertake to put an informer in the 
Communist Party or the Bund, or some such organization? 

Mr. Campbell. I told you I tried to get into the Bund myself and 
I didn't get to first base; I made one trip up there. 

Mr. Dempsey. Did you ever send any of Father Coughlin's 
speeches, except those attacking the Jews, to those people ? 

Mr. Campbell. I mailed some clippings of Father Coughlin's 
speeches from the Brooklyn Tablet, and I took the clippings in there 
from the Reader's Forum. 

Mr. Dempsey. I am asking you what the speech contained ; was it an 
attack upon the Jewish people ? 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't consider it so, not on them as a race. 

The Chairman. But on certain jews? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; whom he attributed to be 

Mr. Deimpsey. You didn't send any of his other sermons or speeches 
out? 

Mr. Campbell. I sent out his sermons and speeches consistently 
for quite a long time. I also sent co^Dies from the Brooklyn Tablet 
of the Reader's Forum. 

Mr. Dempsey. Where did you get copies of his sermons? 

Mr. Campbell. As published in the Brooklyn Tablet. 

Mr. Dempsey. Those are political or racketeer speeches, or anything 
you want to call them. 

Mr. Campbell. Whatever you want to term them. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever find out through your channels any 
data concerning Nazi or Fascist activities in this country? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; I sent out some stuff on the Bund; you 
have a copy of it in the files there. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that one of Mr. Gilbert's reports? 

Mr. Campbell. No, that is one that I got from down in Texas. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you didn't limit your material? 

IVIr. Campbell. I didn't limit my material to what Mr. Gilbert 
sent me. 

Mr. AVhitley. You sent other material out, also? 

Mr. Campbell. You have got a copy of a rejjort I got from Texas 
on the activities of the German agents operating in Houston, 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever send out any of Mr. Deatherage's 
material ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3271 

Mr. Whitley. I believe you stated earlier in the testimony, Mr. 
Campbell, that yon had no use for Deatherage and no relations with 
him of any kind ? 

Mr. Campbell. Deatherage tried to penetrate back into me again 
this winter. I dropped him when I found out what he was, when I 
was in the Reserve officei's. General Moseley spoke in Indianapolis 
and when he did George Deatherage was present and I was sitting in 
the audience, and he and Allen Zoll were together and came over and 
talked to me a little while, and George Deatherage flooded me with 
three or four letters for quite a long while, and I wanted to find out 
what he was doing, and I answer his letters. 

Mr. "Whitley. I show you a folder captioned "George Deatherage," 
Inside this folder is a note, apparently in your handwriting, which 
says, "File under G. D." Did you want to conceal the identity of 
the source of the material ? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; see how it is here [indicating] ? 

Mr. Whitley. You didn't do that to indicate that this folder 
should be changed ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. In this folder, without identifying all of it in de- 
tail, are circulars sent out by Mr. Deatherage and his organization, 
Knights of the White Camellia. Here is a typewritten sheet, which 
is captioned : "Extracts from G's letters." I presume "G's" means 
^'George's? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. A letter from you, dated January 12, address to 
George Deatherage, St. Albans, W. Va. : 

Dear George : Yesterday was a perfect example of why Allen Zoll exists. His 
speech before the Senate committee did more to confirm Frankfurter's appoint- 
ment than any other action. 

You go on to discuss that. 

Mr. Campbell. Go on into the details, what I brought out. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

Had he consigned himself to the word "radical Socialist" many of the Senators 
would have voted against him ; but you and all the rest of lis must recognize 
that the American public does not know this picture thoroughly. 

"Wliat picture is that ? 

Mr. Campbell. The radical picture as it relates to the Communist 
Party. 

Mr, Whitley (continuing) : 

And consequently, with all the crocodile tears that have been shed over the 
radio, throngh the press, and on the screen, too damn many Americans still 
"believe Frankfurter's race to be the persecuted under dogs. 

A little intelligence in meeting those situations would certainly enable us to 
make real progress. I am getting tired as hell of so-called real Americans, 
who want to combat this thing, using the method of agents provocature. 

I have not heard from the other gentleman since his return from Indianapolis. 
Have been pretty busy trying to make a living. 

I'm sorry to learn of your illness and hope you have completely recovered. 

It may be possible for us to meet together soon. I will be in Indianapolis this 
week end, and the following week end, at Columbus, Ohio, as I am after some 
distributors in that State. It may be possible for us to meet at Cincinnati on 
my way back. 

Cordially yours. 

94931— 39— vol. 5 7 



3272 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

That is to the man whom you long ago severed relations with and 
had no use for? 

Mr. Campbell. I still haven't. 

Mr. Whitley. Here is a telegram, dated January 6, 1939 : 

St. Albans, W. Va. 
(Via Owensboro, Ky.) 
J. E. Casipbell, 

6Ji20 Bellcfontaine Street, Indianapolis: 

Impossible to come to Lexington. Writing. 

George. 

Following that, your letter dated January 2, to George Deatherage, 
in which you state that you will be in Lexington on January 7 and 8 
attending the midwinter conference of the Veterans of Foreign Wars. 

Please bring charter and all the information you can spare me to this meeting. 
I will bring the data on the product discussed with you, and we will take 
time to work things out in detail. 

With kindest regards, I am, 
Sincerely yours. 

Another letter addressed to George Deatherage, under date of De- 
cember 19, w^ritten in a very friendly, familiar, cordial vein ; another 
letter, dated December 13, 1938, addressed to Mr. George E. Death- 
erage, 1007 West Peachtree Street, Atlanta, Ga., two full typewritten 
pages, discussing problems apparently of mutual interest. 

There are several other letters in that same file, an exchange of let- 
ters between you and George Deatherage ; quite lengthy letters. 

I would like to have this marked as an exhibit, and I would like 
to ask you again if you have no relations with Mr. Deatherage or 
association with him? 

Mr. Campbell. I have no association with Mr. Deatherage. I knew 
he w^as putting out some kind of a chart, and I wanted to get a 
copy of that chart, these Knights of the White Camellias. I worked 
with the Reserve officers when he was on this Knights of the White 
Camellia when he put out a piece of literature that was absolutely 
repulsive. 

(The document was marked as "Exhibit No. 15.") 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recognize the fact that he is viciously anti- 
Semitic ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; I recognize that, I am not antianything. If 
there is an organization today that is anti-Semitic or anti-Catholic 
or anything else, and by my being friendly with the heads of that 
organization, I can find out their entire plan and program of what 
they are doing, I am going to be friendly with them. You can't get 
information otherwise. 

Mr. Dempsey. What would you do with it after you get it? 

Mr. Campbell. I am going to file it and hnd out what that organi- 
zation is going to do, and I pass it on to friends to leave it alone. 

Mr. Dempsey. To 40 people out of 140,000,000? 

Mr. Campbell. I will pass it on to them to leave it alone and when 
they get that information they certainly aren't going to pass it on. 

Mr. Whitley. This is a copy of a letter of December 9, 1938, at 
Owensboro, addressed to General Moseley, a full-page typewritten 
letter. In the last paragraph you state : 

The gentleman to wish you referred, Mr. George Deatherage, is head of the 
Knights of the White Camellia. We checked information from him and found 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3273' 

it to be in most instances subsequently correct. Only one or two discrepancies 
were found on some data sent from the Pacific coast, which I had checked 
through our friend out there who was your successor here in the fifth. More 
about this when I see you. 
With very best wishes, I am. 
Most sincerely yours, 

There is nothing there that sounds unfriendly. 

The Chairman. What is the date of that letter? 

Mr. Whitley. December 9, 1938. That is about the period that 
a lot of this correspondence was exchanged. 

Mr. Campbell. I think I have got a right to explain the situation. 
General Moseley had stepped into this picture and made a number of 
addresses, and had been criticized, and as soon as he had been criti- 
cized every anti-Semitic organization in the country hopped onto 
him, and after talking with two or three friends of mine, I said, 
"I am going to find out who is trying to get around General Moseley 
and advise him accordingly, and I am going to pick up the old 
channels." 

And when Moseley wrote me that George Deatherage had been 
down to Atlanta to see him, and 

Mr. Dempsey (interposing). But in this you are recommending 
him. 

Mr. Campbell. No; I am not. I said I found some of his infor- 
mation substantially correct. 

When you follow on through my conversation with General 
Moseley 

Mr. Dempsey (interposing). I can't do that, I wasn't present. I 
can only take what you write to General Moseley, and you tell him 
that most of the things in connection with this White Camellia you 
found substantially correct. 

Mr. Campbell. Most of his information was substantially correct. 

Mr. Whitley. You acknowledge the fact that Deatherage and his 
group are notoriously anti-Semitic and Fascist? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; and I advised General Moseley to have 
nothing to do with him. 

Mr. Thoimas. Do you know whether there is any contact between 
Allen Zoll and George Deatherage? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; I do not; they were at the luncheon table. 
One came from West Virginia and one from St. Louis. 

Mr. Thomas. You said before that you didn't know Allen Zoll 
very well. 

INIr. Campbell. I said I met him one time at that luncheon at 
Indianapolis. 

Mr. Thoimas. Gilbert told us today that you did know Allen Zoll 
well, and that you had a very fixed opinion of what Allen Zoll was 
like, and what he was doing ? 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't like Allen Zoll at that meeting with the 
attack that he made before a group of men, when he came out and 
said that the Jews were tearing up the country. 

Mr. Thomas. And it is true that Allen Zoll is a very strong anti- 
Semitic ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And it is also true that Deatherage is anti-Semitic, 
and his organization is considered a Fascist organization, isn't that 
correct ? 



3274 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Campbell. I suppose you would consider it as such. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe you testified earlier today that the sole 
source of your finances in connection with this project came from 
Mr. Gilbert. 

Mr. Campbell. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. And that you didn't receive or solicit money from 
any other source ? 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't solicit any funds. 

Mr, Whitley. I show you a folder captioned "G," with no further 
identifying data on it. It contains a copy of a letter, dated August 
29, 1938, addressed to Mr. Eobert Graf/ 231 South LaSalle Street, 
Chicago, 111. : 

Dear Mr. Graf: There is a program at Los Angeles which entails expendi- 
ture beyond our current budget that is in line with the program which I dis- 
cussed with you upon my recent visit to Chicago. 

The material necessary for distribution at that time, the instructions on organi- 
zation, and the total expenses for the three men needed to accomplish the mission 
will amount to $1,000. 

I am writing to you and four other people who know this story and realize 
that not only public oiDinion but a definite program must be carried to prevent 
the sabotaging of our country to assure the success of this meeting. 

I can assure you that uo additional funds will be requested ; that we have a 
sufficient amount available for current operations ; but this is an extraordinary 
expenditure, therefore the request for the amount of $200 from each of you. 

Thanking you sincerely for what you might be able to do, I am, 
Most sincerely yours, 

J. E. Campbexl. 

Would you call that a solicitation of funds? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir ; I would ; that is the only letter that was 
written. The others were not written. 

Now, we tried at that time, and we had an idea that if we could 
take a couple of other fellows and the C. I. O. information and go out 
before the American Legion national convention, that we might be 
able to get a resolution through on the floor condemning the C. I. O. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, your statement that you hadn't 
solicited funds, that you repeated a moment ago, was incorrect? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

Mr. Dempsey. Why do you have this great business against the 
C. I. O. and want to have them condemned ? 

Mr. Campbell. I was down in the Mahoning Valley, and I saw 
what happened there ; I was up in Detroit when the General Motors 
strike took place. I happened to be in Milwaukee and went to Kohler, 
Wis., and saw what they did at his plant. 

Mr. Whitley. In this same folder, Mr. Campbell, is a letter dated 
August 25, 1938, which is 4 days previous to the letter I just read, 
soliciting contributions. It reads : 

Dear Mr. Graf: I am enclosing a few of the reports which I discussed with 
you upon our recent visit together. 

After you have read these carefully and analyzed them in the light of events 
which have been taking place, I would like to hear from you, admitting whether 
or not you are convinced of the coordinated program to sabotage present Amer- 
ican institutions. 

If you have seen the light, then, we will go into the situation further, and I 
shall be glad to explain upon my next trip not only the progress that has been 
made in combating it, but definite plans for continuance of the activities and 
what can be accomplished. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3275 

It was nice to see you the other afternoon, and I wish to thank you for your 
most Interesting interview. I am, 
Most sincerely yours, 

J. E. OAMPBEa^Ii. 

P. S. — This information is sent you as personal and confidential, and it is 
expected that you will treat it accordingly. 

On the bottom of that letter, written in typewriting, you say : 

Data: Prov. Visitor, Ed. Destiny., An A. N., 4/12/'37., Oct. 5, 9, 22, 26, '37. 
Feb. 8, '38., March 1 & April 28. '38., April 13, 24, '38, May 14, 17, 23, '38., June 
22, '38., July 14, '38., Aug. 15, '38. 

Those are the reports you sent ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; one is an editorial from the Providence Vis- 
itor and one from Destiny. 

Mr. Whitley. And the reports on those dates? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. That is about 15 or 16 reports? 

Mr. Campbell. Not that many. 

Mr. Thomas. Who is the man you sent that to? 

Mr. Campbell. Mr. Robert Graf, of Chicago, 231 South LaSalle 
Street. 

Mr. Thomas. What was his business? 

Mr. Campbell. He used to be with the Standard Gas & Electric. 

Mr. Thomas. What does he do now ? 

Mr. Campbell. He is with another company at the same address. 

Mr. Whitley. Please mark the folder, the "G" folder as "Ex- 
hibit No. 16." 

(The folder was marked as "Exhibit No. 16.") 

The CHAIR3IAN. Is Mr. Felix McWhirter anti-Semitic ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Is he trying to spread this propaganda over the 
country for any purpose? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; he is not. 

The Chairman. I see here a letter from Felix McWhirter dated 
December 12, 1938, to you: 

Mr. James E. Campbeix, 

Business Engineering Associates, 

Oicenstoro, Ky. 

Dear Campbell : Yours of the 9th this morning received. 

Is it true that Hull's wife is part or full-blood Semite? 

What do you know of Landon's Semitic connections? 

What do you know of William Allen White's Semitic connections? 

Sincerely, '] 

Felix M. McWhirteb. 

Can you explain why he would go to the pains of writing to you 
to find out whether or not a man's wife was a Semite or not? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't know why he wrote that. 

The Chairman. Did you supply him the information he asked 
for? Did you tell him Hull's wife was Jewish? 

Mr. Campbell. As far as I know. 

The Chairman. What did you tell him about Landon ? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't know. 

The Chairman. What about White? 



3276 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Campbell. I think White was radical; I think he is because 
some of the articles that he has published 

The Chairman (interposing). As a matter of fact you wrote to 
George Deatherage to get the information, didn't you ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now after Mr. Felix McWhirter wrote you, ask- 
ing for this information, you then in turn wrote to George Deather- 
age to get the information? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. And you wrote to George Deatherage on Decem- 
ber 13, 1938. 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

The Chairman. And here is the man you said you were convinced 
was absolutely no good and a racketeer, George Deatherage? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; I am. 

The Chairman. And yet you write him to get information to send 
to Mr. McWhirter. Here you say : 

Please give me answers if you can to the following three questions, as it is 
extremely important because of the source which has inquired : 

1. Is it true that Hull's wife is part or full-blood Semite? 

2. What do you know of Landon's Semitic connections? 

3. What do you Ivnow of William Allen White's Semitic connections? 

Mr. Dempsey. Do you think a big man would ask for any such 
information as that ? 

He is a peanut variety. 

The Chairman. I don't see the letter from Deatherage back, but I 
notice here in a letter of November 1, 1938, when you were writing to 
Mr. Felix McWhirter, Indianapolis, Ind., you say: 

Monday afternoon was spent witli Homer. One hour of it was taken out to 
attend the speech of Secretary Woodring, which the Democratic central com- 
mittee pulled oft as a rebuttal to the cornfield conference. It was a complete 
flop. There were no news-reel photographers, it was not broadcast, and less 
than 2,500 persons present. 

I covered the situation with Homer and he is coming to Indianapolis Thiu'sday 
for a discussion with you. I told him of the 15,000 posts, the 435 congressional 
districts, the type of organization that was to be perfected therein, the necessity 
of infrequent public appearance until next year, the State meetings, and how this 
program could be controlled and developed. 

Now, I did not discuss with liim the cost. That is a variable factor because 
each one of those 435 individuals must be properly contacted to develop the State 
organization and to coordinate the progress that has been made to date. 

In addition to the travel expense necessary, it will require more office personnel, 
research work, and additional equipment to get out bulletins, compiling of reports 
and material for editorials. So I conservatively would estimate that it would take 
about $600 for the necessary equipment, and then practically $1,000 a month for 
the first year; after that it would require more because we would be put to the 
expense of arranging for the meetings for him to address. 

Who is the "him" ? General Moseley ? 

Mr. Campbell. No; it is Homer Capehart. That is strictly a politi- 
cal issue in that letter. 

The Chairman. I can see it is. 

Mr. Thomas. Who is this Capehart ? 

Mr. Campbell. He is the one that had this cornfield conference at 
Washington, Ind., last August, and that letter was strictly political. 

Mr. Thomas. What State does he come from? 

Mr. Campbell. From Indiana. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3277 

Mr. Thomas. And you were going to have him travel all around 
the 435 congressional districts? 

Mr. Campbelxi. Not him travel all around, they wanted my ideas 
on setting up assistants in trying to promote this man. 

Mr. Thomas. Promote who? 

Mr. Campbell. Capehart, in case they wanted to run him for 
President. 

]Mr. Thomas. Who wanted to run him for President? 

Mr. Campbell. McWhirter, and some of those people in Indian- 
apolis, and they asked me my ideas on the thing, and I gave them 
to them. 

Mr. Thomas. I can give you my ideas of you. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

It is my opinion that lie sees tlie picture as we do, and will sacrifice him- 
self, if necessary, for the welfare of the country. 

I am leaving the office now for Washington and New York, and should have 
some extremely interesting inf<n-mation on this upon my return to Indianapolis 
next week. I suggested yesterday that he arrange a meeting for the three 
of us, week after next. With this advanced information, and knowing our 
plan, it will put you in position to deal with the situation accordingly. 

May I take this opportunity of thanking you for a most enjoyable luncheon 
last Satuv.-lay and the privilege of being in on the dedication of your armory. 
Although I do most vehemently protest against having to sit and listen to a 
completely socialistic speech such as John Jennings made. The next time please 
place me in the balcony with a machine gim. 
Most sincerely yours, 

J. E. Campbexl. 

That is the letter that you wrote him ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VooEHis. Mr. William Allen White and Mr. Landon and Mr. 
Hull, that were mentioned in that letter, what good would it do to 
find out that there was a strain of Jewish blood on one side or the 
other of these families, what would be accomplished by that? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't know. 

Mr. VooRHis. Do you suppose that this is true, possibly, all of these 
men who have been mentioned, have been mentioned previously as 
possible candidates for President. Isn't it necessary that men like 
them have to be eliminated from consideration if possible? Would 
you say that was important to try to eliminate them from 
consideration ? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; I wouldn't say so, to eliminate them from con- 
sideration ? 

Mr. VooRHis. Yes 

The Chairman. I think tlie letters speak for themselves. 

Mr. Voorhis. I think so, too. 

The Chairman, (xeorge Deatherage replied to your letter on De- 
cember 14, 1938, on the letterhead of the "Knights of the White 
Camellia," "Established 1867" : 

Dear Jim: I have your letter of the 13th and am sorry that you cannot find 
it possible to get here, and hope that on the Generals return the financial end 
will be taken care of in such a way that there will be something for your ex- 
penses. Rest assured that I will impress upon him that you should get here as 
soon as possible^ — and before we make the final plans for organization. 

Please rest assured that our time is coming and that within the next 12 
months, those that have borne the heart-breaking load of carrying on the fight- 
will come into their own. That sacrifice will not have been in vain — when the 



3278 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

crisis reaches its climax — and tlie Nation knows the facts. You may rest assured 
that the General will take care of that. 

Who is the "General" that he is talking about, Moseley ? 
Mr. Campbell. I assume so ; yes. 
The Chairman (continuing) : 

as you know him. He has already expressed to me that this must be the case — 
for he is now realizing a little of what a number of people have gone through 
and have sacrified for the cause. 

When I arrived, I found him with the idea that all these outfits that we know 
so well, were O. K. — and good Americans. I hated to disillusion him, but it had 
to be done. Fellows like Major Pease, who is now in Florida — 

He is also disseminating anti-Semitic literature ? 
Mr. Campbell. I have seen some of his literature. 
The Chairman. Quite a bit of jeolousy exists between Pease and 
these men engaged in this business ? 
Mr. Campbell. Apparently. 
The Chairman (continuing) : 

Gwiner of Atlanta, Mrs. Fry, and others who cannot be trusted, were active 
in attempting to get him swung into line. When he saw for himself what 
Gwiner here in Atlanta was trying to do — he began to wake up. 

You are right in that no man close to him must come with other than clean 
hands — and that he must be ready to lay down his life if that is required with- 
out hesitation. It is our job to see to it that this fact is turned into reality — 
for one slip on his part, or ours, and we would be sunk. 

The realization of this has caused the general to take it a little easy for a 
start— until he got his feet thoroughly under him. He thought as I did at the 
start, that this great America would rise up in their wrath and wipe this bunch 
off the face of the earth — 

Don't you think that is dangerous stuff? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; that letter wasn't passed on, or anything else. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

when they knew part of the truth. Alas — he finds that there are skunks every 
place and that the enemy procedure is that of the oriental — sly, cunning, and 
crooked as hell. 

However, he will decide on his return, just what procedure he will follow, 
and the plan now as he sees it, is to start a little G. H. Q. in Atlanta — 

Whatis"G. H. Q."? 

Mr. Campbell. That is general headquarters in the army. 

The Chairman (continuing). 

where we will map the enemy — our friends, consolidate with tis those that we 
know are right, and prepare the plans for the campaign. 

Mr. Campbell. Go on and read the letter because I went into this 
thing to find out something. 
The Chairman (continuing). 

This— realizing that the situation is not yet where we can enlist the mass 
support of reaction. Many people are starting to react, but the main idea now 
is to build the framework of campaign, this army, and secure and qualify 
the leadership. 

You didn't send this out, did you? 
Mr. Campbell. No; I didn't. 

The Chairman. Here is a revolutionary letter which you didn't 
send out, but you were sending out revolutionary letters? 
Mr. Campbell. Well 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3279 

The Chairman (continuing). 

The mass reaction will follow the leader when they are hurt bad enough. 
Now, we must have State and county leaders all over the Nation that we know 
without a shadow of a doubt, are men that will stick under any kind of fire. 

That is a job in itself, and a thing in which you can be of a great deal of 
help. Of course, the general must be careful in dealing with men of the 
R. O. A. 

What is that? 

Mr. Campbell. Didn't I tell you he tried to penetrate us before 
when I was chairman of that committee? 
The Chairman (continuing). 

or any outfit that is still in active service — for if he did, the accusation would 
be made at once that he was building up a Fascist army. We must deal with 
persons in a civilian status. I would much prefer, and I think that you will 
agree, that the leadership should be officers who have seen active service, for 
generally speaking they are men who hold decent positions in society, are more 
apt to be true, and are trained in the work that we must eventually do. 

I feel sure that if these men, many of whom you and I know, were ap- 
praised of the situation, they would resign their commissions and enlist with 
us for this American-Jewish war, for that is all that it is — a war fought with 
money and propaganda instead of rifles. Of course that business of resign- 
ing cannot be suggested by the general — but it might be done through other 
sources which you have contact. 

You will note from the generals' speech, a copy of which was sent you, that 
the plan is to do this job peacefully, and by force if that becomes necessary. 
He will go through if it takes everything that he has. He does not yet quite 
realize the tremendous forces that are against him, but, after his speech in 
New York on the same platform with Father Coughlin, he will be attacked 
from every quarter, this alone showing him the strength of the enemy. 

I suggest to you that in your spare time, you make a list of leaders in the 
Nation that you are sure of, that this might be presented to the general when 
the time is ripe. I will do the same, and between the three of us we can 
decide on them. I am sure that he will not select them until we have a 
chance to put the old G— 2 on them. 

What is the "old G-2," the old intelligence ? 
Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman (continuing) : 

Right after the first of the year it is intention to call a small conference, say 
about 25, in some place as Chicago, quietly, and discuss the matter of what we 
are going to do about this thing. These will not be the organization leaders, but 
leaders of the main groups throughout the Nation — Father Coughlin, Winrod, 
Lodge Curran, John Fry, of the A. F. L., Homer Chaillaux, of the Legion, as well 
as other veteran leaders ; Taber, of the Grange ; Garrison, of the Associated Farm- 
ers — in all, men who are heads of large groups on our side of the fence. Out of 
that will come only a program — the rest we will do on the basis of what the 
general thinks can be done at the moment. Then he will get the temper of these 
men. In my opinion, he will find most of them pussyfooting the issue, and that 
it will end in his having to take the bull by the horns, and go to town on his own. 
However, you could not convince him of that now — he will have to go through 
with it himself. 

I will send you the list when it is decided on, so that you can tell him what you 
know about each one — qualifying them as far as we can before they are brought in. 

Did he ever send you that list? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman (continuing), "About your G-2 reports" — that is the 
reports you are sending out? 

Mr. Campbell. No. 

The Chairman. Awhile ago you stated the G-2 reports mean the 
reports you were getting from Gilbert. 



3280 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Campbell. Any reports I get I refer to as G-2 reports. 
The Chairman (continuing) : 

About your G-2 reports. I necessarily do not wish to know your source, but if 
we are to act on tliat information, we must be certain for the general's sake that 
we are right and do not slip. If you are absolutely certain that none of this is 
rumoi- — tiiat he is safe on proceeding on that information, that is all that we need 
to know. You realize what would happen to our standing if we went ahead and 
then found that we were barking up the wrong tree. 

Don't you regard these things as treasonable utterances ? 

Mr. Campbell. Absolutely ; and that is why I took the pains to go 
back behind this man. 

Mr. Dempsey. Isn't he referring to the very reports you were get- 
ting from Gilbert? 

Mr. Campbell. "VVlien this fellow made contact with me again 

Mr. Dempsey (interposing). I don't care anything about that; 
isn't he referring right in that letter to the reports from Gilbert? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir ; he never received but one report I had, and 
that wasn't from Gilbert ; that was a report I had on the Nazi activity 
in this country. 

Mr. Dempsey. Wliat is he referring to ? 

Mr. Campbell. Some report on some Nazi activity and C. I. O. 

Mr. Thomas. He says "reports." 

Mr. Campbell. On the C. I. O. and the Mahoning Valley situation 
that I had sent him. 

The Chairman. Now, on December 9, 1938, you yourself had writ- 
ten to General Moseley, telling him that Deatherage was all right? 

Mr. Campbell. All right ; previous to this thing. 

The Chairman. Yes ; on December 9 you said that you had checked 
him and found him to be in most instances subsequently correct. 
You were talking about Deatherage? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chair]\ian. To General Moseley? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; that is right. 

The Chairman. Then here comes a letter from Deatherage to you 
containing this information. 

Mr. Campbell. On December 12, isn't it? 

The Chairman. No; December 14. 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't have that letter and w\as trying to get back 
under this man and to try to find out what this man was doing and 
planning. 

Mr. Dempsey. Should you have recommended him to Moseley ? 

Mr. Campbell, I didn't. 

Mr. Whitley. You had known him for 60 days back in 1936? 

Mr, Campbell. No ; I knew he was wrong then ; I didn't know what 
he was doing now. 

The Chairman. Let's go on. 

It would discredit the general nationally and ruin us as well. Facts should 
be established as facts : and if rumors, we should qualify them as such, stating^ 
that they need confirmation. In the past it did not make a great deal of dif- 
ference ; now it may be life or death to the movement and possibly the people 
in it. 

We are interested in this fellow Dies, for instance. I believe that he is 
wrong, for he is attempting the old smear — refusing to give me a chance on the 
stand, or anyone else that he feels will bring this thing out in the open. We 
need to get him and get him right. 



I 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3281 

Any information tliat you liave — send it direct to the general, and if he feels 
that he wants to show it to me, he will do so. 

Mike will not be in the picture. He cannot be trusted in this work, for he 
is the type of an Irishman that would do most anything for money. No soap 
as far as I am concerned. Kelly is taking an active part in New York and is 
hooked up with a half-dozen outfits. I wish you would conlirm to the general, 
what you know about him. Major G in Huntington has already done so. We 
must not let that fellow near him as I see it. 

Regarding your questions. It is true that Hull's wife is Jewish, and that 
she has a family connection with Kuhn, Loeb. I have her record at home. 

I do not know anything much of Landon's connections except in a general 
way — that he and the Jews combined to lick Winrod, and that he is out. 
M has no use for him. 

Don't know anything about White intimately, except that he is a pal of the 
Jews and is thoroughly wrong. Winrod can tell us in detail about both of them. 

I believe as you do that it will take military action to get this gang out and 
the organization must be built around a propaganda organization now that can 
in a few hours be turned into a militant fighting force. That's the idea of the 
boss also, but must be kept on the Q. T. 

As far as the program is concerned, that is something else. We do not need 
fascism or nazi-ism, that is true, but to my mind we will have fascism, call it 
what you may, for there can be no solution to this except a disciplined force 
under" central leadership, and an economic program that will put these millions 
back to work and keep them there. 

If we start a program that says that we are going back to constitutional 
principles, and ignoring the economic plight of the Nation, we have not licked 
it. Tins is a social revolution, just as much as the revolution against slavery 
or from the feudal age to the industrial. I do not think that we can create a 
program under constitutional framework — but there never will be a return to the 
old robber-baron days of predatory capitalism. We have got to make the system 
work, and do away with unemployment and suffering, or give in to some other 
system. What will make it work? That's the fly in the ointment. If we are 
forced to take disciplined action, under central leadership, to whip this gang, 
and we will get no place except with unit and disciplined leadership, plus a 
politico-economic program that will feed and clothe the masses, that is fascism, 
call it what you will. 

Today, we have hundreds of thousands of families concentrated in a great 
city, dependent on wages. If the wages stop these hundreds of thousands, as 
they are now, stop eating and paying their bills. They cannot grow anything, 
they do not own the roof over their heads, they are a burden on government. 
People in the smaller rural communities can raise food, they can get along 
better in many ways. Certainly we must either supply them with a living, if 
they are not put in a position to make it by their own effort. 

We must have a program that will appeal to the people and give them a 
fair crack at a living. If we do not do this, the problem still confronts us as 
unsolved. If the present spending continues we will have by 1940 a national 
debt of about .$75,000,000,000 — which never can be paid. Irrespective of how 
we think or what we want to do in this matter, we are faced with economic 
break-down which will release the passions of the multitude and demand solu- 
tion. If we don't have what we think is a solution, someone else will put it 
over. That issue must be primarily the point for discussion at Chicago. What 
are we going to do about it 

It is no use to raise the issue that private property is to be inviolate — if 
private property is to be destroyed by economic break-down and depreciation 
of ciu'rency. As in Germany private property was destroyed ; there was no 
such thing. 

I have in mind what the solution is, but others will differ. It is suf- 
ficient to say at the moment, that we cannot, so it seems to me, lick this thing 
in a permanent way unless we make the system work, either by a return to 
old ideas or by revamping them. People cannot eat ideas and ideals. 

As soon as we know how the finances are. and that should be soon, I shall 
let you know what I think can be done. Most certainly I should like to see 
you" actively in the fight ; in a position that will make up for what you have 
gone through in the work, and the sacrifices that you have made. There is a 
place at the -top in this thing, for the men who formed the backbone of it, 
and there is no logical reason why they shall not have it. • In my mind, in 



3282 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

this work, a man's position is established by the amount he has personally 
sacrificed and not by lip service. 

Rest assured that I will keep in touch with you and, if I have anything 
to do with it, see that you are given a chance to come in the inner circle. 

As far as I am concerned, only men who have proven themselves can be 
of that circle. That goes for me as well as anyone else. If you have any 
doubts of my honesty or sincerity, it is your bounden duty to write the 
general and tell him about it. 

You had already written the general that you were satisfied he was 
all right? 

Mr. Campbell. Wait a minute, I will answer that question in one 
way. The general never attended any conferences or never went on 
the platform with Father Coughlin, and I take credit for stopping 
the whole thing. 

Mr. Dempsey. You thought pretty well of Coughlin when you were 
sending his speeches out? 

Mr. Campbell. I think he is all right but I didn't think Moseley 
had any business appearing on the platform with him. 

Mr. Dempsey. They were doing the same kind of work, weren't 
they? 

Mr. Campbell. At that time General Moseley had never mentioned 
a Jew in his speech. 

Mr. Dempsey. What about now? 

Mr. Campbell. He has now. 

Mr. Dempsey. What is the difference between the two of them now 
in the propaganda speeches they are making? 

Mr. Campbell. Read the letter that General Moseley received. 

Mr. Dempsey. I am not asking you that; I mean what is the differ- 
ence between the approach of Father Coughlin and General Moseley ? 

Mr. Campbell. General Moseley is trying to name individuals en- 
gaged in subversive activities. 

Mr. Dempsey. "Wliat is Father Coughlin doing? 

Mr. Campbell. I think he is trying to include the entire race. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you think his stuff is general or not authentic? 

Mr. Campbell. No; because I think he has offered his sources 
of information. 

Mr. Whitley. Offered to whom ? 

Mr. Campbell. He has given them in his publications. 

The Chairman (reading) : 

AH I ask is that that what is presented are facts and not rumors. The time 
is here to lay the cards on the table — face up — and let the devil take the 
hindmost. 

I shall be here until about next Monday when I shall go to West Virginia 
for the holidays. I can be reached there at box 467, St. Albans, and my tele- 
graphic address is College Hill, St. Albans. Telephone St. Albans 691. In 
your letters and in mine hereafter let us refer to the general as the boss in 
case that Mr. Farley is interested. 

My best to you, with a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. 
Cordially, 

George. 

Will let you know when I come back to Atlanta and my address at that time. 
For the moment let us keep this correspondence on details confidential between 
us, not that we are doing anything that the general would not approve, but we 
have to educate him as to what this is all about without his getting the idea 
that we are trying to influence him. We will have to direct him in a way 
which is not obviously trying to control him. He has been in the Army so long 
that he has his own definite ideas, that will have to be allowed for. I see 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3283 

now that we cannot give him all this in one dose without unsetting him. We 
do not want to force more food on a man that is already upset with indigestion. 

What is he speaking of, mental indigestion? 

Mr. Whitley. I have one or two questions about Father Coughlin. 
Do you consider or recognize him as being anti-Semitic ? 

Mr. Campbell. Kacially; no. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you consider that he is generally, he and his 
group and organization, considered a Fascist group? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. With Fascist tendencies? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir ; not from what I have read in his speeches. 

Mr. Whitley. You have a great deal of confidence in his speeches? 

Mr. Cambpell. Yes; for this reason, in his public speeches he 
gives the source of the information which he is using. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever check that source? 

Mr. Campbell. It has never been discredited. 

Mr. Whitley. I have here a folder captioned as "Col. Edward J. 
Quinn," containing a letter dated December 9, 1938, addressed by 
you to Col. Edward J. Quinn, 48 Winter Street, Portland, Maine : 

Dear Colonel Quinn : Enclosed is another report. The press, motion picture, 
and radio should be your medium of checking the accuracy of these reports. 
I believe the evidence which Commander Chadwick will present to the Dies 
committee will bring out some of this in part. 

May I suggest that you tune in at 3 p. m., central standard time, each Sunday 
afternoon and get Father Coughlin's speech on the current situation. I know 
definitely that the information which he is putting out is correct, as I have seen 
some of the official documents which he is citing in his speeches. You may 
pass the word along, as it also verifies some of the reports which you have 
received. 

Shortly after the first of the year I am going on another 2 weeks' mission 
and at that time I expect to be prepared to send you a glossary, referring to 
names and places as abbreviated in some of the reports which you have 
received. 

If you have noticed, Congressman Dies is not allowed on radio stations 

WEAF, WJZ, WOR, WMCA, WHW, WABC. Do you remember in one of the 

reports when Sir William said, "We control radio." 

Sincerely yours, 

J. E. Campbell. 

Mr. Whitley. I would like to have this marked for the record. 

(The document was marked "Exhibit No. 17.") 

Mr. Whitley. This pile of correspondence came out of your files and 
represents, I believe, practically entirely correspondence between you 
and Mr. Gilbert? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that correct? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You identify that? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And this material came out of your files and repre- 
sents copies, typewritten or mimeographed, of various reports which 
you have sent out ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you identify those as such? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Only one other thing: I want you to explain this 



3284 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

telegram, dated New York, August 14, 1937, to J. E. Campbell: 

[Telegram] 

New York, N. Y., August 14, 1937. 
J. E. Campbell: 

Your Long Island friend has sold you out completely to Snow. He bad your 
Penn contacts Pew and Weir. She gave George your harmony letter ; even your 
Ohio plan has been duplicated by them. Sent letter to Indiana address explaining 
in full. 

DUDLETT. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is that, Dudley Gilbert? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What does that telegram refer to? 

Mr. Campbell. That is "Snow" instead of "Show." That is some 
people that we know that was down in Pennsylvania that I had con- 
tacted while chairman of the subversive activities committee. This is 
clear back in 1937 right after, a short time after, I met Mr. Gilbert — I 
mean when we had begun to work together in that summer, and I don't 
inow who this particular friend he refers to at that time is. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is "Pew" referred to there, and who is "Weir" ? 

Mr. Campbell. That must have been J. Howard Pew that I wanted 
to see and didn't get to see him. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is Weir ? 

Mr. Campbell. Of the Weirton Steel. 

Mr. Whitley. He is on one of your lists ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And you claimed that you didn't see him or send a 
report to him ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You didn't see either one of those ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; I do not know them and never sent them 
any reports. 

Mr. Whitley. I have here a bunch of special delivery, air mail 
letters, addressed to you by Mr. Gilbert, at Montgomery, Ala. ; Denver, 
Colo.; San Francisco and Los Angeles, Calif.; Seattle, Wash., and so 
forth. Apparently you have traveled extensively in connection with 
your work. 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. In the spreading of these report ? 

Mr. Campbell. That was on a trip I made about a little over a year 
ago, and when I went out to see these boys personally, and we talked 
American Nationalists, and I met some of these other fellows. 

Mr. Whitley. Gilbert was financing all this? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

(Off the record discussion.) 

The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess until 9 o'clock 
tomorrow morning. 

(Whereupon, at 6:25 p. m., the committee recessed until 9 a. m., 
May 19, 1939.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMEEICAN ACTIVITIES IN THE 

UNITED STATES 



MONDAY, MAY 22, 1939 

House of Representatives, 
Special Committee to Investigatij Un-American Activities, 

Washington^ D. C. 

The committee met at 10:30 a. m. in the caucus room. Old House 
OfRce Building, Congressman Martin Dies (chairman) presiding. 

Present: Congressman Dies (chairman), Noah M, Mason, J. Par- 
nell Thomas, H. Jerry Voorhis, and Arthur D. Healey. 

Also present : lihea Whitley, counsel to the committee. 

The Chairman. The connnittee will come to order. 

May we have quiet? There are a few preliminary remarks that the 
chairman wishes to make. In the first place, the witnesses will answer 
the questions that are asked them and not volunteer information. All 
answers will be responsive to the questions asked by the attorney for 
the committee. In the event any witness volunteers any information 
or undertakes to bring in someone's name that is not in response to the 
questions asked, that answer will be stricken from the record and will 
not be a privileged conmiunication. I say that for the benefit of the 
press, because it is the purpose of the committee that the people con- 
cerning whom we do not have credible evidence will not have their 
names dragged in in the course of the hearings, and in the event some 
witnesses undertakes to do so that will be stricken from the record; 
and, of course, it w^on't be privileged in any sense. 

I also want to say that we want to be absolutely fair to every wit- 
ness. Of course, it is not always possible for a witness to answer a 
question "Yes" or "No." In the event a witness has a proper expla- 
nation to make in connection with his answer, he can so state that fact 
and the explanation will be permitted, in the event that the explana- 
tion is pertinent to the matter asked him and relevant. But we are 
not going to tolerate any volunteer statements on the part of any 
witness. 

We also expect those spectators who are present to be orderly, so 
that w^e can conduct this hearing with proper decorum and undertake 
to get at the truth of the matter under inquiry. 

Witness Gilbert. Mr. Chairman, as a point of information, suppose 
it w^as necessary for me to mention the name of a man — otherwise the 
thing wouldn't make any sense — am I not to mention his name ? 

The Chairman. Well, that is a matter that we can determine as we 
go along. There is no disposition to suppress the truth in this in- 
quiry — vre don't care wdio is involved ; it is our purpose to do our duty 

3285 



3286 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

fearlessly, regardless of any question of partisanship or any question 
of politics or anything else ; ^yhat we want to know is the truth. Of 
course, we don't want hearsay and mere rumors and some conclusion of 
some witness that isn't absolutely supported by his personal knowl- 
edge brought in, because, manifestly, that would enable such names to 
be publicized thixjughout the country and w^ould do them great harm. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. But that is a matter that we can determine as we 
go along. We will ask you, however, to make your answers respon- 
sive to the questions asked. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Then if you do have an explanation in comiection 
with some question 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). With your permission I can then make 
it? 

The Chairman. You state it, because we have no disposition to be 
unfair to any witness. This is not any third-degree proposition. 
What we want to know is the truth with reference to it. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I think that we may just as well proceed, Mr. 
Wliitley. 

ADDITIONAL TESTIMONY OF DUDLEY PIEREEPONT GILBERT 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, at the time of my examination of you 
in New York, last week, and also during your testimony before the 
committee on Thursday, this past Thursday, you stated that you 
organized and formed in New York in 1935 an organization known 
as the American Nationalists, i-s-t-s, Inc. ? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is quite correct, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That organization was not successful, you could 
not spread the information and the type of propaganda you wanted to 
put out through the press, publicly, so that organization to all in- 
tents and purposes went out of existence the early part of 1937, is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is correct, sir. 

The Chairman. Just a second. I wonder if we may get through 
with whatever preliminary matters that there are, so that we can 
have quiet and order. We can't hear the witness. 

Mr. Gilbert. Mr. Chairman, may I object to one word in that 
question, the "propaganda?" We didn't attempt to propaganda peo- 
ple ; we tried to show them the truth. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, the American Nationalists, Inc., has 
not existed, has not operated, in any manner or any way, according 
to your previous testimony, since early in 1937? 

Mr. Gilbert. We tried to continue, but without success. There 
may be around the country a few people that have charters of the 
thing, but we never got anywhere with it. We got no financial sup- 
port. We haven't been able to go places at all. We have really got 
nothing left but Mr. Campbell and those 40 men. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, it has gone out of existence; it is 
not operative and hasn't been operative since 1937 ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3287 

Mr. Gilbert. It has not been active. It is in existence still, but it 
hasn't been very active. 

Mr. Whitley. You say it is still in existence ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. I told you that the other day. 

Mr. Whitley. You told me that you still had the charter but you 
merely kept that in order that someone else would not use the name. 

Mr. Gilbert. That is quite true. In reply to another question of 
yours, I also told you that Campbell and I alone were trying to 
carry on the work of this thing in a new way through these 40 
men, but were not very successful. 

Mr. Whitley. May I show you for identification, Mr. Gilbert, a 
letter dated May 5 

Mr. Gilbert. Do you mind if I read it, so 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). Addressed by you to Mr. Campbell. 

(Kemarks off the record.) 

Mr. Whitley. In this letter, Mr. Gilbert, you are writing Mr. 
Campbell about an individual who has been in contact with you, ap- 
parently talking to you, about your work and Mr. Campbell's work. 

Mr. Gilbert. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. You are more or less giving an appraisal of that 
individual to Campbell. 

Mr. Gilbert. That is quite correct, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. On the first page of that letter you state : "Anybody 
you introduce him to should be posted. He must know nothing about 
A. N." 

Mr. Gilbert. That is our committee. 

Mr. Whitley. Does that "A. N." refer to the American National- 
ists, Inc. ? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is what we call the committee; "A. N." is 
a nickname for the committee. 

Mr. Whitley. For the committee ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Wliat committee? 

Mr. Gilbert. These 40 men. If we used the whole letters of the 
whole Nationalist thing, it would be "A. N. I." ; we use the "A. N." 
for short. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. That doesn't refer, then, to the defunct or- 
ganization, American Nationalists? 

Mr. Gilbert. It only refers to the name that we had in common 
use. 

Mr. Whitley. That doesn't indicate that the old organization is 
still in existence, sub rosa ? 

Mr. Gilbert, No, sir. I would like to find it, if it is. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you for identification, Mr. Gilbert, pages 
5 and 6 and 7 of a letter addressed by you to Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. Have you any date — idea what date that 
was written? 

Mr. Whitley. The first folder of that letter was missing. It was 
in Mr. Campbell's files. 

Mr. Gilbert. That must have been way, way back. 
Mr. Whitley. Is that your handwriting? 

94931— 39— vol. 5 8 



3288 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gilbert. That is my handwritinor. I should say it was way 
back, a few months after I first met Campbell, because we didn't 
make any attempt to raise funds after that. That was the time 
he thouojht he could raise some money from different people in the 
business w^orld — he found he couldn't. 

Mr. Whitley. You do identify this as your letter? 

Mr. Gilbert. I most certainly do. 

Mr. Whitley. Reading from this letter, Mr. Gilbert, the fourth 
paragraph on page 5, you say : "Brown helping Northrup, Ind., 
Aircraft Workers Union. Information on these men would gain 
members for us, he says, among aircraft workers." 

Mr. Gilbert. That was in the very first when we were still trying 
to run an organization. Browm was the man alleged to be a member 
of the Los Angeles police department, who later dropped out of 
sight in that we broke off negotiations with him. I do not know 
whether that is his real name or not, but that is the name we knew 
him under by correspondence. 

Mr. AVhitley. I see. But that paragraph does refer to members 
for the American Nationalists, Inc.? 

Mr. Gilbert. We were trying at that time to get members and get 
money, both. 

]\Ir. Whitley. I see. And that was subsequent to the time the 
American Nationalists, Inc., was supposed to have gone out of exist- 
ence ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I believe Mr. Campbell has told you, w^e tried for a 
few mc^nths to go along, and foimd we didn't get anywhere, and 
resorted to this committee method. 

Mr. Whitley. Reading from ])age 6 of the same letter, postscri]:)t, 
"As soon as State organizations get large enough they must support a 
man like Mike's man, traveling through the State all the time." That 
refers to State organizations — does that mean State organizations of 
the American Nationalists, Inc.? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; we had a set-up planned to set up an organi- 
zation we were getting together, and naturally would have a man 
travelino: around doing that. 

Mr. Whitley. And this again was subsequent to the time you 
closed the office of American Nationalists in New York and to all 
intents and purposes stopped operating? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. We were trying to start something new, 
and weren't able to do it at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. You say that State organizations w^hen they get 
large enough "must support a man like Mike's man" — wdio is "Mike's 
man" ? 

Mr. Gilbert. That was some friend of Campbell who had a man he 
thought would be a good organizer, if we had the money to employ 
him to travel around the State, see, like Virginia or Texas or some- 
thing — it is used by all organizations that are trying for member- 
ship. When you have got the money, you hire an organizer, whether 
it is a trade union or fraternal society, to go out and get members for 
you. We didn't have the money to hire such a man. 

Mr. Whitley. In other w^ords, according to this statement which 
you made in your letter to Campbell, although the American Na- 
tionalists, Inc., to all intents and purposes was out of existence, you 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3289 

were trying to build an organization large enough in each State to 
have a full-time organizer? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is right, and then we were going to try to 
bring them into the American Nationalists afterward, and they were 
to be organized under different names, I believe, in different States. 
Then they would come in, unite them all in one big movement. The 
idea, I think, was a good one. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, your program was not to have a 
very small or limited organization; you wanted a Nation-wide, 
highly organized organization? 

Mr. Gilbert. We wanted a 3,000,000 membership. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you for identification, Mr. Gilbert, letter 
dated October 1, 1937, addressed by you to Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That is your letter? 

Mr. Gilbert. That most assuredly is. 

Mr. Whitley. On page 2 of this letter, Mr. Gilbert — the letter be- 
ing more or less a discussion of plans and activities — you state as fol- 
lows: "Suppose new charters will be soon needed." Does that refer 
to charters of the American Nationalists, Inc. ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; we thought we were getting enough interest at 
that time that I would have to have some new charters. I had a lot 
of old things that I had in my closet up there ; I may still have some 
of them — and I was hoping that he was progressing far enough so 
that these different groups could be brought in and we really would 
be going places. He was writing me most enthusiastic letters at that 
time. 

Mr. Whitley. That is with reference to this Nation-wide organi- 
zation you were trying to build up through them? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. He was giving me a very rosy picture. 

Mr. Whitley. This letter was written October 1, 1937, which is 
approximately 8 or 9 months after the time the office of the American 
Nationalists, Inc., was closed in New York and to all intents and 
purposes went out of existence? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; but it was also about 5 or 6 months after I 
met Campbell again and started this other thing, as I told you. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you for identification, Mr. Gilbert, undated 
letter addressed to Mr. Campbell, and ask you if that is your letter ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. That refers to the 40 men that we were send- 
ing the information out through for propaganda purposes. 

Mr. Whitley. You refer to the 40 men. That is not in keeping with 
the indications in that previous correspondence of your ambitions and 
efforts to build up a Nation-wide organization, is it ? 

Mr. Gilbert. It wasn't a question of my ambitions. We had to face 
facts. What we had we had to use, whether we had 4 or 4,000,000. 

Mr. Whitley. In this particular letter to Mr. Campbell you state 
in the second paragraph, "The A. N. chief accomplishments in 1938 
so far" — are you referring to tlie American Nationalists, Inc. ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I was referring to the 40 men. 

Mr. Whitley. Of course, this letter to Mr. Campbell was written 
after the office of the American Nationalists was closed. 

Mr. Gilbert. That is right, sir. 



3290 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whituet. Because you didn't start operating with him until 
you had closed that office. 

Mr. Gilbert. That is quite right, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And, to all intents and purposes, discontinued that 
activity. 

Mr. Gilbert. That is right. The oifice was closed. 

Mr. Whitley. Further down in this letter, Mr. Gilbert, you state 
also — this is by way of relating the accomplishments of the A. N. 
during this period, 1938 — "Also we fought Panay war scare and 
through Pat got Coughlin to talk against it on the radio." Who is the, 
"Pat "referred to there? 

Mr. Gilbert. "Pat" is a man who has no connection with our organi- 
zation. He is an editor of a Catholic newspaper in Brooklyn, Mr. 
Scanlon, of the Brooklyn Tablet. We asked him to use his influence 
with Coughlin to fight an attempt that we thought was to try to get 
the United States into a war with Japan at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. Tlie "Coughlin" referred to is Father Coughlin ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. I have never met him. 

Mr. Whitley. And your organization — or, rather, you and Mr. 
Campbell — were at least indirectly furnishing information to him to 
be disseminated? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir; we were not. It was only just that one case, 
where we asked a personal friend of his and of ours to try to get him 
to do something to fight it. We did not furnish him any information. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the only instance on which that happened? 

Mr. Gilbert. There may have been one or two others — I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, Mr. Gilbert, instead of the 
American Nationalists, Inc., ceasing to exist and going out of business 
in the early part of 1937, it merely went through the motions of doing 
that, and continued as a sub rosa organization, and the work of that 
group is still being carried on today by you and Mr. Campbell — is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Gilbert. That isn't altogether a fair question ; if you consider 
40 men trying to do a work without an organization set-up as a con- 
tinuation of a defunct organization, you are right. Otherwise, the 
answer is "No." 

Mr. Whitley. But you are still carrying on the work of that or- 
ganization under the original charter which you had? 

'My. Gilbert. I am not using that charter. That is in somebody's 
office files. 

Mr. Whitley. But the organization is still legally in existence, 
although you deny that existence or its operation ? 

Mr. Gilbert. It is not operating. These 40 men never have prob- 
ably heard of the organization, most of them. I only know they are 
friends of Campbell, working through him. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, at the time I interviewed you in New 
York and at the time of your examination before the committee on 
Thursday last you denied, responsive to questioning, any Nazi of 
Fascist sympathies or leanings. 

Mr. Gilbert. I most assuredly do, and I say so again. 

The Chairman. If I may ask, have you always been opposed to 
nazi-ism and fascism? 

Mr. Gilbert. I have always been opposed to any un-American move- 
ment, whether it came from the extreme left or the extreme right, 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3291 

The Chaieman. That isn't answering my question. Have you 
always been opposed to nazi-ism and fascism ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You have never had any change of heart? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir ; I have never had any change of heart. 

The Chairman. All right. That is what I want to know. 

Mr. "Whitley. And you denied any such sympathies or leanings to 
me at the time of the interview in New York j 

Mr. Gilbert. That is quite right ; and I still do. 

Mr. Whitley. Beading from letter dated August 19, 1937, Mr. 
Gilbert, which was addressed by you to Mr. Campbell, regarding the 
work of your organization, page 5, as follows : "Keep up your courage. 
Kemember those who are finally successful always suffer much before 
victory. You and I are no exception to that rule. Mussolini was 
insulted, stoned, and driven from town to town. He and his family 
suffered much for lack of money. Hitler was jailed and persecuted 
for years. It is that very persecution that tries men's souls. It is 
that very suffering that has welded together the strong type of men 
that have led nazi-ism to victory in other countries. The same will be 
so here. We must win ; we will win, because America must live and 
the Stars and Stripes must wave over every foot of North America 
from the Panama Canal to the Arctic Circle. Such is our future. 
You and I are destined to lead America to that greatness. Otherwise 
we would long ago have been crushed. Long live nationalist America ! 
Let us fight harder than ever." Signed "Dudley," dated August 19, 
1937. 

Mr. Gilbert. I wrote that. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you that. You identify the letter ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I admit I wrote that. That still isn't nazi-ism or 
fascism. You can love your own country and be an American na- 
tionalist without picking out anything from Europe. The mere fact 
I pointed to other people who had accomplished things in other coun- 
tries and had been successful in spite of opposition was merely to show 
if people could do it for a movement of that kind we could do far more 
Avith our type of movement. 

Mr. Whiti^ey. What did you mean by the statement that one of the 
ambitions of your organization was to see the American flag fly over 
North America from the Panama Canal to the Arctic Circle ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I have made that statement openly in speeches in 
the past. I believe that some day it will happen, as a necessity. 

Mr. Whitley. Is the acquisition of territoiy part of the program 
of your organization ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir. That was merely suggesting and s])eaking 
like you would on the Fourth of July on the future of America. I 
believe that will have to come some day, otherwise we will have Ger- 
mans to the north of us and Japs to the south of us. 

Mr. Whiti.ey. I see. Why did you express admiration for ISIusso- 
lini and Hitler, their ideals, and their accomplishments 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). I didn't 

Mr. Whitley. Let me finish my question, Mr. Gilbert — and more 
or less, from the wording of that letter, why you were holding them 
up as ideals for vourself and Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Gilbert. May I answer? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 



3292 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gilbert. I am not holding them up as ideals. I was just 
trying to illustrate to him what men could do and had done in other 
countries, for a less good cause — the point that we who had much more 
merit than they had should be able to do as well, if not better. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, are you related by blood or by mar- 
riage to Mr. Frederich W. von Meister? 

Mr. Gilbert. He married a distant cousin of my wife's. I saw him 
exactly once, at his wedding. I was one of a thousand people there — 
never saw him before or after. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what his official position with, or con- 
nection with, the German Government is ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I do not know, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he is vice pre.sident of the 
Osilad Corporation and the American Zeppelin Transport, Inc.? 

Mr. Gilbert. I do ijot know, sir. I know nothing about his busi- 
ness. I got an invitation to attend the wedding. He married a dis- 
tant cousin or relative of my wife. And we went to the wedding 
and went to the reception, and I shook hands with him, I think, on the 
line, and congratulated him on his marriage, and that is all I know 
about the gentleman. I would hardly know him if I saw him in the 
street. 

Mr. Whitley. Is he the F. Willy von Meister 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). I wouldn't know, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Just a minute, let me finish the question — who has 
been extremely active on the behalf of the German Government in 
its efforts to secure helium from the United States? 

Mr. Gilbert. I wouldn't know, sir, that question. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he is the F. Willy von Meister 
who is referred to in the Congressional Record of May 5, 1938, page 
1864, appendix, volume 83, part 10? 

Mv. Gilbert. I do not. 

Mr. Whitley. That particular portion of the Record constitutes 
two letters from Congressman Emanuel Celler, dated May 6, 1938^ 
which were addressed to the Secretary of War and to the Secretary 
of the Navy, and in those letters Congressman Celler states as follows : 

I noticed a statement in the press recently, cliiding Secretary Ickes for not 
acting according to tlie Golden Ilule with the German Government, in whicli the 
assertion was made that the writer had heen introduced to Dr. Eckener in the 
Navy Department by Mr. F. Willy von Meister, his representative — 

and you don't know whether that is the F. W. von Meister that your 
cousin, second cousin married ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know. As a matter of fact, I don't even know 
Meister's first name. I wasn't sure who you were talking about 
when you told me. 

Mr. Whitley. (Continuing the reading of this letter, which is in 
the Congressional Record:) 

I would like to know if this Mr. von Meister is a commissioned officer or a 
civilian employee of the Navy Department. If not, is he by any chance the 
Mr. F. W. von Meister referred to in an article in The Nation of June 5, 1937, 
entitled, "What are the American Nazis Doing?"', and in which the following 
statement appeared : "The center for German technical intelligence has been 
reorganized. The old — 

I can't pronounce the German name : 

"T-e-c-h-n-i-s-c-h-e-r Verein" is the formal screen. The leader of the New 
York Gestapo (German Secret State Police), Ernst Krause Wichmann, re- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3293 

placed Rudolph Wildermann, who was considered inefficient, with the Nazi- 
trained Rudolph Pickenbrock. Mr. Pickeubrock is responsible for conveying 
technical information to Dr. Matschoss, of the German Engineers Club, in 
Berlin. F. Willy von Meister of the New York office of the Deutsche Zeppelin 
Ilhaderie, is still in charge of all technical intelligence and was recently 
reconfirmed in the office. Besides, he is an official liaison man for the Nazi 
party with the most important American industrial and commercial institutions. 

Yoli don't know about that? 

Mr. Gilbert. I know nothing about that man. I can't honestly tell 
you anything. I don't know anything about him, I know nothing 
about him — more than I would some of the gentleman of the press 
here. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Reading further from the same letter : 

And is he the same Mr. F. W. von Meister, who, I ami informed, makes the 
affidavit in support of the application of the German Government for the 
support of this tpiautity of helium, and whose unsupported statement that it 
is not of military importance was the sole evidence before the Munitions 
Control Board at the time the allotment was approved? 

Mr. Gilbert, I do not know. 

The Chairman. Before we leave this letter of August 20, 1937 — I 
believe that is the date — may I ask you what you mean by this 
paragraph 

Mr. Gilbert. May I ask wltat year that was? 

The Chairman, this is 1937. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. The letter in which you talk about Mussolini 
and Hitler. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You use this — you say, "U. Z, also told me.'' 
Who is "U. Z."? 

]Mr. Giijsert. She is a w^oman we know by the name of Mrs. 
Uzell out in Long Island — claimed to be somewhat connected with 
Army intelligence. I don't believe she is. We afterward had noth- 
ing to do with her. 

The Chairman (reading) : 

U. Z. also told me last week every Yiddish paper carried a full story of 
George's convention. 

What George ; George Deatherage ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. 

The Chairman (reading) : 

And a complete list of all persons accepting invitations to it. She stopped 
her foreign friend when he said Fritz — - 

wdio do you mean, "foreign friend" and "Fritz"? 

Mr. Gilbert. Mrs. Uzell asked us to come to an office that she had 
on Forty-second Street, I believe, is run as a — her husband is in the 
amusement business, furnishes things for amusement parks — and I 
was taken in there one afternoon, or came to see her, and she liad 
a mmiber of strange people in there, and when I got out on the side- 
walk my reaction was that these people were connected to some for- 
eign government or another, and I wrote Campbell, probably another 
letter in addition to that one, if you have it, to warn him to have 
nothing to do with these people, I thought they were a peculiar out- 
fit and I thought they were trying to, say, frame us. 

The Chairman. You meant by "Fritz," Fritz Kuhn, didn't you? 

Mr. Gilbert. No ; I did not. 



3294 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Who? 

Mr. Gilbert. She had a fellow in there by that name from New 
Jersey, who she claimed was a Dane. 

The Chairman. What was his last name? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know. That is all she called him by. He 
had a long-winded foreign name and I couldn't get it, and I knew 
that Campbell had seen him at one time, too. 

The Chairman. You are sure that wasn't Fritz Kuhn ? 

Mr. Gilbert. It most certainly was not. I have never met that 
man in my life, and don't want to meet him. 

The Chairman. "When he said Fritz would not last as there are 
always men in good positions ready to unseat him," and you have 
underscored "good positions ready to unseat hun." What did you 
mean by that? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know. 

The Chairman. You can't explain that? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is so long ago, I can't. 

The Chairman. "Or any other man who makes a wrong move." 
What do you mean by "wrong move" ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I wouldn't know. You are taking something out of 
its context 2 years ago. 

The Chairman. All right — 

She also told me that Dineen you met with Inspector Kerr or Eakir was the 
man who wrote all the unpleasant magazine articles on Fritz and his organiza- 
tion. 

Now, what did you mean by "Fritz and his organization"? 

Mr. Gilbert. That particular case I meant another Fritz. 

The Chairman. What Fritz did you mean? 

Mr. Gilbert. I did mean him that time. But I didn't mean him 
before. 

The Chairman. But you did mean him the second time ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you say that he wrote all the unpleasant maga- 
zine articles on Fritiz and his organization? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You mean the criticism of Fritz Kuhn and his 
organization was unpleasant? 

Mr. Gilbert. I mean an article that was written about that organi- 
zation was unpleasant for them, and I did not want the same man 
coming over to us and trying to tie us with him. We wanted no 
part — we thought he was one of these people trying to tie every anti- 
communist movement on the tail of the Nazi kite — and we wanted no 
part of it. 

The Chairman. You weren't doing this for political purposes ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir. 

The Chairman. I believe you testified before the committee you 
were a Democrat? 

Mr. Gilbert, I am. 

The Chairman. What did you mean by this : "U. Z.'s son also told 
me that Snow" — what Snow is that you are speaking of ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I am speaking of John Snow. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3295 

The Chairman. "Was building up a Nation-wide chain of Re- 
publican clubs for 1940 with the aid of the Crusaders. Several of 
T-a-k-u-a-r-d-i-a" — what is that? "Several of T-a-q-u-a-r" — no. 
"Several of LaGuardia's men I learned afterwards are helping him, 
including Jews, and deputy police commissioner McDonald" — what 
did you mean by this Nation-wide organization that was being built 
up by Snow ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Mrs. Uzell's son told me about this organization, and, 
whereas we were not in politics, I thought Campbell should know 
about it. It was a matter of information, just as I might take some- 
thing out of the newspaper this morning and tell him I read in the 
paper. We always passed on to each other anything we thought at 
all interesting. 

The Chairman. So you maintain in the same paragraph when you 
use the word "Fritz" twice that the first time you are referring to 
some Fritz whose name you can't recall, and the next time, when you 
said, "She also told me that Dineen you met with Inspector Kerr 
Eakir was the man who wrote all the unpleasant magazine articles on 
Fritz and his organization," you say that refers to Fritz Kuhn, but 
the first Fritz is someone else. 

Mr. Gilbert. Quite right — you are quite right; and if you put that 
lady on the stand I think you wall find out she will identify the other 
man. 

The Chairman. Now, let's see. Now, you say : 

U. Z. sure is working against us. She is handing out invitations to George's 
convention around New York for liim. She admitted to me she is on a com- 
mittee witli Snow, explained so she could watch him better, but I think other- 
wise. Her son spilled the news to me that Snow had taken over your Penn- 
sylvania friends — 

What do you mean, "working against" you ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, we got suspicious of the lady about that time — • 
still are — and we figured that she was working for George Deather- 
age's outfit, or some other outfit, and she was trying to get what little 
we had and pull it into some, shall we say, pro-Nazi movement, and 
w^e were very suspicious of her and we did not take her explanation 
about why she w^as playing around with Mr. Snow at that time. Does 
that answer your question ? 

The Chairman. Were you interested in building up these clubs 
throughout the country ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I certainly was not. That was a point of general 
information such as you might read in the paper this morning and 
write to a friend in Texas. 

The Chairman. All right, go ahead. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe you have previously testified, Mr. Gilbert, 
that you never had any contact or relations or associations with Father 
Coughlin ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I testified that I had written one letter I believe was 
transferred to him by Mr. Scanlon. I never had any direct contacts 
with him, and I still maintain that I have never had aiiy direct contacts 
with him. 

Mr. Whitley. You never had any arrangement, cooperative ar- 
rangement, with reference to material ? 



3296 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gilbert. I never have under any condition. 

Mr, Whitley. I read you a letter dated December 9, 1938, addressed 
to Mr. Dudley P. Gilbert, care of the Brooklyn Tablet, 1 Hanson Place, 
Brooklyn, N. Y. : 

My Dear Mr. Gilbert: This is just a note to thank you for your recent letter 
which reached me safely and promptly. You may be sure that the information 
you sent to me is deeply appreciated, and I shall use it. With kind regards and 
best wishes, I am sincerely yours, 

Charles E. Coughlin. 

Mr. Gilbert. That is an answer in reply to a letter — the one letter 
I sent Father Coughlin, through Mr. Scanlon's the Tablet. That is 
the only letter I ever received from Father Coughlin in my life. 1 
forget the exact nature of the information at the time. You will have 
to get that from Mr. Scanlon. It skips my mind for the moment. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't recall the nature of the information you 
were sending? 

Mr. Gilbert. I do not. I know Mr. Scanlon 

The Chairman (interposing). Let's get the facts about this. Don't 
you know, as a matter of fact, that the information you are referring 
to are these reports about this club in New York that you were dis- 
seminating ? 

Mr. Gilbert. They are not. Father Coughlin never got any of those 
reports at any time. 

Mr. Whitley. You are sure of that, but you don't know what you 
did send him — what the nature of the material you sent him was? 

Mr. Gilbert, I don't know, but I am very sure that Father Coughlin 
will be glad to show it to you, wdiatever it was. It was something T 
clipped out of newspapers in New York, 

Mr, Whitley. Do you know^ whether he did use it or not. 

Mr, Gilbert. That I don't know ; you will have to ask him. 

Mr, Whitley. You didn't follow the broadcast or speeches? 

Mr. Gilbert. I did not. I missed some of them as I missed part 
of one yesterday. 

JNIr, Whitley. I see. And you are sure this is the only contact 
you ever had with Father Coughlin? 

Mr. Gilbert, The only letter that I ever i^eceived from him, the 
only letter I ever sent. There may have been two other occasions, as 
I told you, through Mr. Scanlon that I may have sent an oral mes- 
sage to him by way of Mr. Scanlon. 

Mr. Whitley. Or you may have had him use something that you 
wanted him to use on the radio? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir; he never used anything that we wanted him 
to use on the radio. 

Mr. Whitley. You made reference in a previous letter which I 
read here a few minutes ago to material which he used at your 
instance regarding the Pounay incident. 

Mr. Gilbert. No, I didn't — oh, yes; in regard to 

Mr, Whitley. You remember that? 

Mr. Gilbert. I remember that ; yes, sir. I will qualify that. That 
is what I gave to Mr. Scanlon. It wasn't information; it was merely 
an idea to get Father Coughlin to fight that thing at that time. I 
saw no reason for the United States being thrown into a world war 
over a small incident in the East. 

Mr, Whitley. Did he use that? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3297 

Mr, Gilbert. I don't think he had to use anything. I think he 
knew all about it. I merely asked him if he wouldn't get back of the 
people in fighting an attempt to put us into a world war. I sent 
him no propaganda or information or anything. 

Mr. Whitley. Just a suggestion? 

Mr. Gilbert. Just a suggestion to one friend to use his good influ- 
ence with another friend to go to work and fight an attempt to push 
us into a world war, and I still would do it, openly. 

Mr. Wihtley. Apparently, Mr. Gilbert, it wasn't necessary for you 
to have direct contact with Father Coughlin, you contacted him in 
writing or verbally through your mutual friend? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't think that was a fair question. I wrote him 
one letter and received one reply, and on two occasions I spoke orally 
to the editor of the Tablet and gave him some information, which 
he afterward forwarded, I am told — I have no proof, but I am told — 
to Father Coughlin. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of this information? Now, 
there is three instances that you have admitted that you 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). I admitted three from the very be- 
ginning. From your very first question I have admitted three things, 
two by way of Scanlon and one by way of a letter to Scanlon, and 
the letter that you got in reply is the only one I ever received. 

Mr. Whitley, What was the nature of that information? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; I can tell you. I don't know what the 
letter was ; that you can get from Coughlin. I think it was clippings 
of certain things I got out of the New York Herald Tribune and 
New York Times that I thought he didn't see in the Midwest, In 
regard to the other two instances, I am very happy to tell you that 
one was the report of a parade in New York in March which was 
more or less of — supposed to be anti-Hitler but was actually a pro- 
war demonstration, and the other was a complete description of the 
6-hour radical May Day parade held May 1, 1939. 

The Chairman. Now, to clarify — to get your mental attitude about 
this thing — as a matter of fact, you did admire Mussolini and Hitler, 
didn't you? 

Mr. Gilbert. I did not. 

The Chairman. Didn't have any use for them ? 

Mr. Gilbert, I tliought that as men, regardless of the movements 
they represented, they liad as individual men achieved a great deal 
of success, I might say I admire them in the same way that I admire 
a man I don't like at all, I admire Walter Winchell for the success 
he's had in tlie newspaper world, I admire any man who fights his 
way up from tlie bottom. 

The Chairman, You felt that they were being badly mistreated. 

Mr. Gilbert. I did not. 

The Chairman. Why did you say here in your letter, "Keep up 
your courage, Kemember, those who are finally successful always 
suffer much" — and have underscored "suffer much" — before victory" ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I was trying to show Cam])bell that these men had 
fought tlieir way up from the bottom for which I considered was an 
unworthy movement, and if they could do that for an unwoi-thy 
cause, why couldn't we do it a lot better for something we considered 
ton a much higher plane than what they were conducting? 



3298 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. But von didn't mention your worthy cause in the 
letter. 

Mr. Gilbert. It wasn't necessary. Mr. Campbell knew my position 
on that and always has. 

The Chairman. Why did you further say, "You and I are no ex- 
ception" — and underscore "no exception" — "to that rule"? 

Mr. Gilbert, Because I thought that that rule is world-wide in any 
country. Any man that starts to fight his way up, whether it is ill 
business or politics, Mr. Dies, is going to get a lot of knocks, and you 
know that better than I do. 

The Chairman. And then, continuing, you say : 

Mussolini was insulted, stoned, and driven from town to town. He and his 
family suffered mxich for lack of money. Hitler was jailed and persecuted for 
years. It is that very persecution that tries men's souls — 

So you felt as though Hitler and Mussolini were being persecuted,, 
didn't you? 

Mr. Gilbert. I was only quoting from the history of those men I 
had read in books. 

The Chairman. You think a man championing a worthy cause 
is persecuted by opposition? 

Mr. Gilbert. I believe he could be; yes, sir. We are talking of 
the man, not the cause, gentlemen. 

The Chairman. "It is that very suffering that has welded together 
the strong type of man" — what strong type of man? You mean the 
Nazi party and the Black Shirts, don't you? 

Mr. Gilbert. I do not, I meant the individual following of his at 
that time. 

The Chairman. Well, they afterward became the Black Shirts 
and the Brown Shirts. 

Mr. Gilbert. That is right. 

The Chairman. And you were speaking of them as a strong type 
of men. 

Mr. Gilbert. I think they are, whether you agree with them or not. 
So are the Communists, for that matter. 

The Chairman. "That have led nazi-ism to victory in other coun- 
tries." 

Mr. Gilbert. Their brand of nazi-ism was not our brand. 

The Chairman. "The same will be so here." 

Mr. Gilbert. I firmly believe it will, I will say that, I will 
shout it from the top of the Capitol. It will be here eventually. 

The Chairman. "We must win, we will win." In other words, you 
were in favor of establishing nazi-ism in America the same as Hitler 
and Mussolini established it in their countries, isn't that a fact? 

Mr. Gilbert. The American brand is not their dictatorship brand. 

The Chairman. But it is nazi-ism just the same you were advo- 
cating, and you were admiring Hitler and Mussolini because they 
had succeeded. 

Mr. Gilbert. I admire their personal success, and I thought our 
movement, which would not dictate, was much more worthy of 
success. 

The Chairman. And you admired the men who followed because 
you said they were a strong type of men. 

Mr. Gilbert. They undoubtedly were. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3299 

The Chairman. But your only difference with them is you want a 
nationalistic movement in the United States fitted for America. 

Mr. Gilbert. Right! 

The Chairman. But you want the same prineiiDle involved, isn't 
that right? 

INir. Gilbert. No. 

Mr. VooRHis. Let's find out what Mr. Gilbert means by that. 
What do you mean is going to be here? 

]\Ir. Gilbert. What do I believe is going to be here ? 

Mr. Voorhis. Yes. 

Mr. Gilbert. I believe, gentlemen — am I allowed to speak the 
whole thing, Mr. Dies? — because if I am not there is no use explain- 
ing it. 

The Chairman. How long will it take? 

Mr. Gilbert. About 2 minutes, 3 minutes. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Gilbert. I believe, sir, that the conditions in this country now, 
after 10 j^ears of depression, 12,000,000 people unemployed, that 
something has to be done. Otherwise, the American people will 
drift into one of two dangers : Either nazi-ism, which I do not like, 
or communism on the other hand. To counteract that, some strong 
movement of a patriotic type of Americans must arise, for it is quite 
apparent to all — and I know I am being very unpopular to the gen- 
tlemen here present — that neither of the great political parties so 
far, after 10 years, have been able to do that for the American 
people. 

If it doesn't arise the Republic is sunk, and what you call democ- 
racy will be in the ashcan. Now, if that is disloyal, I am willing to 
admit it. 

Mr. Voorhis. But, Mr. Gilbert, that isn't an answer to my question. 

Mr. Gilbert. If that isn't an answer I don't know what it is. 

Mr. Voorhis. You describe here the movements of Hitler and 
Mussolini and then in answer to the chairman's question you said 
that you believed that it would be here in this country in a short 
time. I want to know not why or how or where but what you mean 
V "it"? 

Mr. Gilbert. I meant the American people would have to adopt 
an American form of nationalist movement to protect and save them- 
selves and save the Republic. 

Mr. Voorhis. What would that movement signify? What would 
it mean in the average life of the everyday man? What kind of 
government would it mean? 

]Mr. Gilbert. It would mean a probably strong movement to bring 
political pressure on both parties, regarclless of party lines. 

The Chairman. Would it be in the form of storm troopers? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Would it be uniformed men? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Why were you trying to attract generals and Army 
officers to this program? 

Mr. Gilbert. I wasn't. 

The Chairman. You knew it was being done by Campbell, didn't 
you ? 



3300 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gilbert. They were patriots. I think a man that wears the 
uniform of liis country is a pretty good patriot. 

The Chairman. Nobody is denying that. But why was it you 
were so anxious to interest men who had been in the Army and the 
Navy ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Because I think that a man who is willing to work 
for tlie country in the Army and Navy, his type of patriotism is a 
type you can't question. 

The Chairman. And you think that is the type of man that 
ought to head a nationalist movement? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't say to head it. They are the type of men 
we wanted to work with it. 

Mr. Healet. What is your cure for the condition? What do you 
mean by a "nationalist movement"? 

Mr. Gilbert. I mean that a large bloc — or "group," more than a 
bloc — of the American people have got to get together to fight the 
present difficulties and troubles before the country', and to put 
enough backbone in some of our political friends so they won't hesi- 
tate to go ahead and make the necessary cures, instead of wasting 
time in the last 10 years when we w^ere gradually drifting down 
toward revolution. 

Mr. Healey. Are you opposed to the present form of government 
of the United States? 

Mr. Gilbert. I am not; but I am opposed to the present ineffi- 
ciency and lack of going anywhere. 

Mr. Healey. And you are not opposed to representative govern- 
ment ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Not at all. 

Mr. Healey. And your movement did not sponsor some other kind 
of government? 

Mr. Gilbert. No; it did not. 

Mr. Healey. To take over the present representative form of gov- 
ernment ? 

Mr. Gilbert. It did not. 

Mr. Healey. Constitutional form of government. 

Mr. Gilbert. It was sponsored to put some backbone in the pres- 
ent set-up so we w^on't have another form of government. 

The Chairman. Now, you are unable to explain what you meant 
by the words "She stopped her foreign friend when he said Fritz 
would not last as there are always men in good positions" — under- 
scored, "good positions" — "ready to unseat him"? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know. You will have to put that lady on 
the stand. 

The Chairman. But you are the one making the statement. How 
is it you can't remember this and can remember all these other 
things ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, you can't remember everything you ever put 
in a letter. I bet I can get some things you couldn't remember. 

The Chairman. Yes; but here, you understand, the words were 
not lost : "Fritz would not last as there are always men in good po- 
sitions" — unscored, "good positions" — "ready to unseat him, or any 
other man who makes a wrong move" — what sort of a wrong move 
did Fritz make? 

Mr. Gilbert. I wouldn't know. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3301 

Mr. Healet. What Fritz is it ? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is what I would like to know. Tell me who it is. 

Mr. Heaket. Well, in the next breath you say where you made 
another reference to "Fritz" you meant Fritz Kuhn. As a matter of 
fact, haven't you been referring to Fritz Kuhn right along? 

Mr. Gilbert. No ; I don't think so. 

The Chairman. You mean to tell me that when you couldn't — let 
me read the letter, to refresh your memory : 

She stopped her foreign) freind when he said Fritz would not last as there 
are always men in good positions ready to unseat him, or any other man vrho 
makes a wrong move. She also told me that Dineen you met with Inspector 
Kerr or Eakir was the man who wrote all the unpleasant mjagazine articles 
on Fritz and his organization. 

Now in the same paragraph you mention Fritz twice — the same 
sentence — but you say the first Fritz mentioned is not Fritz Kuhn 
and the last Fritz is Fritz Kuhn. 

Mr. Gilbert. I finnly believe that is the answer. 

The Chairman. Well, do you know it or not^ Are you testifying 
here upon your knowledge or upon opinions ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I am answering your questions, under oath, to the 
best of my ability. 

The Chairman. Do you know those two men are different men 
you are referring to? 

Mr. Gilbert. I believe they were. 

The Chairman. Well, believing is not knowing. Do you know it? 

Mr. Gilbert. No ; I don't. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, the truth is that they were 
the same man; isn't that true? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know. 

The Chairman. You don't know? 

Mr. Gilbert. No. 

The Chairman. But you won't undertake to say they weren't? 

Mr. Gilbert. Mr. Dies, a few minutes ago you told people this 
wouldn't be a third degree. If you are going to ask me questions 
whether I stop beating my wife, all right, let the public know it too. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, correspondence between you and Mr. 
Campbell indicates that you were very friendly with the party you 
referred to as "Pat," whom you identified as Pat Scanlon. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; I have known him for about 16 or 17 years, 
sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And your letter to Mr. Campbell dated September 
30 makes five or six references to Pat and information he had fur- 
nished you and your relations with him. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

ISIr. Whitley. Apparently very cooperative. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. I don't know what they were until I see 
the letter, and I can tell you. 

Mr. Whitley. Your letter dated May 7, Mr. Gilbert, 1939, to 
Mr. Campbell, page 2 of that letter you state : 

My parade article on page 8 and 9 of Pat's paper made the sixth edition. 
The P. S. added to it about sailors on page 9 written by Pat. Be sure you get 
it. It will help on pictures, etc. 

Was that an article that you prepared for Mr. Scanlon 's paper? 

Mr. Gilbert. That was the thing I testified a few minutes ago,, 

on the May Day parade, that I sent to Mr. Scanlon and asked that.. 



3302 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

he make a copy of it and send it to Father Coughlin. The reference 
at the bottom was something that I didn't put in. I always want 
to have clearly in mind what I write and what other people add. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Mr. Gilbert, I will ask you to identify this 
letter, dated February 18, no year date on it, addressed by you to 
Mr. Campbell. . 

Mr. Gilbert. What address did it have? Was it Indianapolis, do 

you know? 

Mr. Whitley. I don't have the envelope. 

Mr. Gilbert. I see. Yes, sir ; that was this year. 

Mr. Whitley. That was this year. 

Mr. Gilbert. That was after one of these reports were sent to 
Campbell. It was a reference about it. 

Mr. Whitley. This letter is in the nature of a report, one of the 
longhand reports, you 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). I think supplementary report to a 
longhand report. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). Frequently followed to Mr. Campbell 
for dissemination. 

Mr. Gilbert. I think that was supplementary to one of those. I 
judge from the way it starts it was. Probably Campbell already had 
the report. 

Mr. Whitley. The last paragraph of this letter you state, "Uncle 
believes Spanish method will have to be used early this summer re- 
gardless of what method enemy use, only 3 would advance the 
date." Who is "Uncle," Mr. Gilbert? 

Mr. Gilbert. "Uncle?" I think that question probably referred to 
myself. 

"Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, that is the way you identified 
yourself constantly to Mr. Campbell and to others, isn't it, as 
"Uncle"? 

Mr. Gilbert. Not always. You have found me under varying 
things there. 

Mr. Whitley. But quite often in your letters or telegrams to him 
you signed them "Uncle" or "Uncle Dudley." 

Mr. Gilbert. I sign "Uncle Dudley," yes, sir. It is a nickname of 
mine. 

Mr. Whitley. And in transmitting copies of those letters or those 
reports you sent him, in referring to his source of information he 
would say "Uncle says this" and "Uncle says that." 

Mr. Gilbert. That is quite right. 

Mr. Whitley. He was referring to you? 

Mr. GiiJiERT. There may have been some other people called that, 
Ijut I think it was largely me. 

Mr. Whitley. What do you mean by "Spanish method will have to 
be used early this summer?" That means this coming summer? 

Mr. Gilbert. I figured, as I told the committee the other day, and 
as I told you in New York, that very shortly in this country we were 
faced with civil war from the left, I thought the American people, in 
order to put that down would have to arise and put it down after 
it had started. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you thought 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3303 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). I thought if they took over part of the 
country that what was left of America, the South and Middle West, 
woukrhave to arise under some American officers such as the Franco 
tyi)e and put it down, otherwise we would be a "red" republic. 
' The Chairman. Just 1 second. 

Mr. Healey. Did you mean by that that you were advocating some 
sort of a military dictatorship? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir; I was not. I was advocating Americans 
combine if such a thing did take place and the ordinary police and 
militia were overthrown we would have to have some kind of move- 
ment to counteract. 

iNIr. Healey. Similar to the Franco movement in Spain? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; which I don't think is fascism. 

Mr. Healey. But in reality, then, you advocate a military move- 
ment. 

Mr. Gilbert. I didn't advocate a military movement at that time. 
I advocated the people would have to combine and look forward, if 
that emergency occurred they would have to fight back. I still say 
they would have to fight back. 

Mr. Whitley. You say "Spanish method will have to be used 
early this summer" — did you mean by that that your side, or the 
forces or groups allied with you and Mr. Campbell, would have to 
precipitate a revolution? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That is what happened in Spain, wasn't it? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir; they had already started. You don't know 
your Spanish history very well. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. But this paragraph you say does indicate 
that military force was going to be necessary, was going to have to 
be used to accomplish your purpose early this coming summer? 

]Mr. Gilbert. Do you tliink you could put down a revolution with- 
out military 

The Chairman. Let's have a clear understanding. There is no 
disposition to be unfair to you 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know, sir; I have seen a lot of things un- 
fair 

The Chairman. There is no disposition to be unfair or to apply 
any third-degree method. If you will just answer the questions that 
are asked you and not ask questions to the attorney, we will get along 
fine. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. There is no disposition here to be discourteous 
to any witness. 

Mr. Gilbert. I think you have been very unfair to me, all right. 
I don't mind telling the press that. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Will vou answer the question, Mr. Gilbert? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir, 

]Mr. Whitley. Will you read the question ? 

The Reporter: 

But this paragraph yon say does indicate that military force was going 
to be necessary, was going to have to be used to accomplish your purpose early 
this coming summer? 

94931— :J9 — vol. o 9 



3304 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gilbert. That is not a fair answer — a fair question, because it 
was not my purpose. It is merely a fact that if there is a "red" 
revokition, military force will be necessary to put it down. Does 
that answer your question, Mr. Attorney ? 

Mr. Whitley. That was the method that you were suggesting that 
would have to be used ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Before the summer was over ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Military force ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Whitley. And in effect to accomplish the objectives or pur- 
poses of your organization ? 

]VIr. Gilbert. Well, I wouldn't say my organization — but the pur- 
poses of America to save itself, regardless of whether my organiza- 
tion or any other organization. 

INlr. Whitley. Well, you had more or less taken it upon yourself, 
by building up this organization, to be ready 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). We had hoped to educate the Ameri- 
can people up to that point. We had no organization to do it with 
ourselves. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know that that letter of yours, your letter 
of February 18, 1939, 'just referred to, was copied by Mr. Campbell 
and mailed out to his mailing list ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I did not, sir, 

Mr, Whitley, Typewritten copies of Mr. Campbell's file indicate 
that, and that letter contains your prediction, reading from one 

of those typewritten copies : "Uncle "— and, again, as I stated 

a moment ago, Mr. Campbell's mailing list very frequently saw that 
word "Uncle" used, and they knew it meant his source; they didn't 
know what his source of information was, that was a way of cover- 
ing it up — "Uncle believes Spanish method will have to be used early 
this summer regardless of what method enemy use" — who is the 
enemy ref ered to ? 

Mr. Gilbert, The Red revolutionists, 

Mr. Whitley, You mean — you say "regardless of what method 
enemy uses"— you mean whether they try anything or they try to 
start anything or not, you still advocate military force? 

Mr. Gtilbert. No, sir ; regardless of what method they used of vio- 
lence. 

Mr, Whitley. What method of violence ? 

Mr, Gilbert, Absolutely. If there was no violence, there could be 
no revolution and would be no counter movement. 

Mr, Whitley, Well, the word there, regardless of what they do, you 
still think that military force should be resorted to. 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir; that isn't a fair answer — fair question, 

Mr, Whitley, That is the way it read, 

Mr, Gilbert, I can't help how Mr. Campbell writes, 

Mr, Whitley. That is exactly the way you wrote it. Wlien he 
copied it for dissemination, why he w^rote it exactly as you had it. 

Mr. Gilbert. Regardless of whether they should start this movement 
by an out-and-out revolution or whether they should precipitate it by 
a complete tie-up of the country, raid on Government bonds, and so 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3305 

forth, we must be ready, because in the secondary stage of that, re- 
gardless of what method they use in starting it, you would be faced 
with a Red civil government in this country. That I am willing to 
say openly anywhere. 

Mr. Whitley. Don't you, Mr. Gilbert, think that the dissemination 
of statements of that kind to a mailing list that is sympathetic — or at 
least they have been receiving this material apparently sympatheti- 
cally for a long period of time — don't you think such statements 
(being sent out to this mailing list is apt to put them in a frame of 
mind that they would want to start or participate in some type of 
military action? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't. I would very gladly have given that to the 
press, if they would have printed it, but I don't think they would have. 

Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Gilbert, you said awhile ago that when you said 
regardless of what method the enemy might use that you meant some 
kind of violence. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. But in answer to the attorney's question immediately 
afterward 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). Otherwise it makes no sense. 

iVIr. VooRHis. All right; but in answer to the attorney's question 
immediately afterward you gave us one instance of a method that 
might be used — a raid on Government bonds. Well, that is hardly a 
violence. 

Mr. Gilbert. That would be coupled, sir, with general strikes, 
shutting off the people's food and water supplies, shutting off trans- 
portation, and bringing the country as near as they could possibly to 
its knees. Now, such a thing is just as much revolution as if they 
started shooting the policemen in the streets of Washington. 

Mr. Whitley. The last portion of that sentence, Mr. Gilbert, you 
say, "Only 3 would advance the date." What do you mean by "3"? 

Mr. Gilbert. I figured by No. 3, sir, was — their plan No. 3 was 
their direct-action plan. No. 3 referred to an attempt to get us in a 
foreign war and then during the excitement of having us enter a 
foreign war they would take over their revolution much easier, just as 
they did in Russia when Russia was in a foreign war. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you mean by this, then, that if 
they — if the United States became involved in a foreign war prior to 
this coming summer that would advance the date 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Of the military action which you are predicting 
here. 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir; it meant in this way- — let me answer that 
fairly so everybody can understand it. It meant if they used the 
method of getting us in a foreign war they would be in a position 
much earlier to start their own revolt due to the conditions that 
would exist in this country immediately following our declaration 
of war, and, therefore, under such circumstances, the date for a coun- 
teraction on our point would be advanced. Is that clear to every- 
body ? 

]\ir. Mason. May I ask a question now? A while ago, according 
to the testimony, you had made an attempt through Father Coughlin 
to head off getting into war because of the Panay incident. 



3306 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr, Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mason. Was that attempt to head off war because of thePanay 
incident an attempt to delay or head off this No. 3 phm that you 
talk about? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; certainly was. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, referring again to this last sentence 
of that letter which has been quoted several times, "only 3 would 
advance the date." You say plan No. 3 which was referred to here 
meant in the event the United States became involved in a foreign 
war; is that correct? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. That was to precipitate us into a foreign 
war. 

]Mr. Whitley. Do you mean by that advancing the date in that 
event if it came to pass your group would advocate military force 
or violence within the country? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir ; only we were going to rise in support of the 
Government against the radicals when they tried to take advantage 
of the fact that troops were being sent abroad, and so forth, to create 
a Russian revolution back of the line as they did to the Russian army, 
and that is a matter of history. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. And then under those circumstances you 
were advocating military force? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; under the American flag, under the Ameri- 
can Government, not against it. 

Mr. Whitley. IVIr. Gilbert, what were your relations with IVIr. 
Felix McWhirter of Indianapolis, Ind.? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; may I answer that in full ? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Gilbert. I met him through Mr. Campbell on three or four 
occasions. I was told he is a Reseiwe officer of the United States 
Navy and also an intelligence officer of the United States Navy in 
the MidAvest section. He told me that himself. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Do you know whether INIr. McWhirter re- 
ceived copies of these reports which you sent out or were sent to Mr. 
Campbell for dissemination? 

Mr. Gilbert. I do not know, sir. I imagine Campbell may have 
sent a few of them for his personal information, but he was not one 
of our regular list, I do not think. You will have to ask Campbell 
on this. I am not in a position to answer. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you consider Mr. McWhirter a part of your 
organization? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir — a friend. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he cooperate with your organization? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. He did not? 

Mr. Gilbert. No. 

Mr. Whitley. He was not considered an adviser? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Or he was not frequently contacted for assistance of 
^one kind or another? 

Mr. Gilbert. He never gave us a cent that I know of, and he never 
got any of his friends to give anything as far as I know. He might 
possibly have advised sometimes about not making foolish mistakes 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3307 

and sounding off the handle and so forth that sometimes jealous peo- 
2)le like Campbell might do. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever suggest to Mr. Campbell that he fur- 
nish certain information to Mr. McWhirter or did you ever suggest 
that he contact Mr. McWliirter about certain matters? 

Mr. Gilbert. Knowing JNIr. McWhirter to be naval intelligence, or 
believing him to be naval intelligence from his own statement, I 
thought it was only just if we found something that Avould affect 
those matters which naval intelligence should know that we should 
give them over to Felix McWhirter and as he was a naval man we 
tliought he was the best man to have. I believe his rating is captain 
or commander — I don't know. Your chairman knows better than I 
do. 

Mr. Whitley. Page 39 of the transcript of your testimony last 
Thursday, Mr. Gilbert, the question was asked: "Realizing the seri- 
ousness of the information contained in these reports, if it were true, 
did it occur to you or Mr. Campbell that they shoukl be turned over 
to the proper officials so that it could be handled through official 
channels?" your answer to that question was: "Some of the men we 
worked with — and I will not divulge their names; you can put me in 
jail, if you want to — are men who worked for the G-2 section of the 
Army and Navy." 

Mr. Gilbert. O. N. I. section of the Navy. The O. N. I. is equiva- 
lent to G-2 in the Army. 

Ml-. Whitley. "And they were of the opinion that wdiere copies in 
the past had given information of a certain type they had not received 
cooperation when it got to Washington, and in some cases reports had 
been lost." Is your statement there, "some of the men worked w^ith," 
does that refer to Mr. McWhirter? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. 

Ml'. Whitley. You considered him one of the men you worked 
with ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; and to that extent. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. I show you for identification, Mr. Gilbert, 
your letter dated Newport, October 30, 1937, addressed to Mr. 
Campbell. 

Mr. Gilbert. 1937, sir ? 

Mr. Whitley. That is the date, I believe, on the letter. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. I didn't read it all. I just looked at the 
front page. If you w^ant me to read the letter I will have to take 
longer. 

Mr. Whitley. This letter is furnishing to Mr. Campbell certain 
information in which your organization was interested, and you state 
on page 2 of the letter: "Hope F. will do his part when you meet 
him and not put things off again." Does that refer to Mr. Felix 
McWhirter, does that paragraph ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No. Will you read that over again, because I think 
I know who "F." was. 

Mr. Whitley. "Hope F. will do his part when you meet him." 

Mr. Gilbert. What year was that? 

Mr. Whitley. October 30, 1937, is the date of the letter. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes ; that particular date, "F." would refer to him. 
It wouldn't if it was this year. At that time w^e were trying at that 



3308 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

time to get Mr. McWliirter to get some of his friends to help us, but 
he declined to do that and never did. 

Mr. AVhitley. To help you financially? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; we needed money. But he never did. 

Mr. Mason. May I suggest that counsel read the full letter so that 
we may have the full context. 

Mr. 'Whitley. Some of these use a lot of names. 

Mr. Mason. All right. 

Mr. Whitley, I believe, Mr. Gilbert, that you have previously 
stated that you and Mr. Campbell or your organization didn't solicit 
funds or financial aid. 

INIr. Gilbert. We were not an organization, but we were trying 
to get a little money to go on with things. After all, I am not a rich 
man, in spite of what the papers said about me, and it was still a 
little tough to carry the expense of Campbell, who was also in a lot 
of debt and financial trouble and had a family to support. 

Mr. Whiiley. I see. 

Mr. Gilbert. That wouldn't have meant big money; might have 
meant a few hundred dollars. 

Mr. Whitley. You still say that there is no organization? 

Mr. Gilbert. I still say it is work we were doing. 

Mr. Whitley. There is no organization? 

Mr. Gilbert. There is no active organization. There is one with 
a charter, yes; in the State of New York. There may have been 
a few old charters around the country. 

Mr. Whitley. In spite of the frequent references you made to the 
A. N. and so forth, or the American Nationalists, in those previous 
letters, you still say there is no organization ? 

Mr. Gilbert. There is no active organization; no. 

Mr, Whitley. I show you for identification, Mr, Gilbert, letter 
dated October 7, 1937, addressed to Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Gilbert. 1937 — yes, sir, I sent him that. 

Mr. Whitley. That is your letter? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is what we heard, and that is wdiat I forwarded 
to him as a matter of intelligence. Remember, I also believed he 
was close to naval intelligence — to the Army intelligence section. 

Mr. Whitley. Wait until I ask you the questions about the letter 
before you ansA^er it, Mr. Gilbert. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. In the first paragraph of that letter, you state: 
"Here is some more information for Mc." Does that statement refer 
to Mr. McWliirter? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You stated a moment ago, I believe, that you didn't 
think Mr. McWhirter was on the mailing list or that he got many 
of the reports. 

Mr, Gilbert. He didn't get reports, sir. He got things which I 
thought were of interest to him. He wasn't interested in the whole 
picture. He was interested in the things as part of his official duty 
as a naval intelligence man. 

M;\ Whitley. As a matter of fact, at your instance, and volun- 
tarily, Mr. Campbell maintained very close contact with him, 
didn't he? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3309 

Mr. Gilbert. I wouldn't know how close. You would know that 
better than I. I believe they are very old friends, for many years 
back. 

Mr. Whitley. At least on many occasions you suggested that 
certain information be turned over to "Mc." 

Mr. Gilbert. I thought it was the proper channel; yes sir; but 
he didn't get the regular reports, I am very sure, 

Mr. Whitley. I show you for identification letter dated October 5, 
no year on it, addressed to Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Gilbert. October 5 — maj'be I can tell from the wording what 
year it is. Yes, sir; this refers to — well, you ask me the question 
and I will answer. 

Mr. Whitley. That is your letter? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes ; that is my letter. 

Mr. Whitley. On page 6 of this letter, Mr. Gilbert, the letter is 
furnishing certain — or transmitting certain information to Mr. Camp- 
bell, in line with the type of information which you were constantly 
sending him. On page 6 you state : "Please get this to all that should 
know, especially Felix" and so forth. 

Mr, Gilbert. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Does that reference — does that mean Mr. Felix 
McWliirter? 

Mr. Gilbert. It most certainly does. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Mr. Gilbert, at the time I questioned you 
in New York, and at the time you testified before the committee last 
Thursday, you were asked numerous questions with reference to this 
alleged source of information of yours, this mysterious individual. 

Mr. Gilbert. I did, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was an employee in this permanent club in 
New York City. 

Mr. Gilbert. I did, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And who was constantly furnishing you the infor- 
mation which formed the basis of these reports which you sent to 
Mr. Campbell for dissemination, 

Mr. Gilbert. I did, sir. I described the gentleman to you, gave 
you the name I knew him under, though I don't believe it was the 
name he was employed under. 

May I add something in there? And your representative this 
morning said, would I identify him, and I said to the best of my 
ability I would if you brought him before me. 

Mr. Healey. Did you pay liim? Was he in your pay? 

Mr. Gilbert. He was paid something from $10, $15, to $25 tops. 
I thought that that was a good indication of his honesty. If he was 
a racket boy he would be asking large sums. 

Mr, Whitley. You stated, or have stated in your previous testi- 
mony, that the only reason you had to believe that this man was what 
he represented himself to be or that there was any real basis of fact 
in these reports which he furnished you, was the fact that on frequent 
occasions he made predictions in those reports which subsequently 
were confirmed by newspaper accounts. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, that was the sole basis on which you 
accepted this information and had it broadcast, or, rather, dissem- 
inated to your private mailing list by Mr. Campbell. 



3310 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. GiLBEET. Yes, sir; and I might add I also told you at that time 
that that was the reason, because it was only from that source, I did 
not give it to the public press, as I wanted to have conclusive evi- 
dence before I hurt anybody. 

Mr. Whitley. You stated that you knew this mysterious waiter or 
employee under the name of "George Rice." 

Mr. Gilbert. That is the name I knew him under ; yes, sir. 

]VIr. Whitley. That is all you knew about him ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I told you I had met him at various times from 1934 
up to the present date, or within recent date. 

Mr. Whitley. That is right. I gather from your yesterday's tes- 
timony that if there hadn't been some way to confirm this informa- 
tion that he furnished you, you would not have felt free to dissem- 
inate it? 

Mr. Gilbert. I would not have felt free to give it to the press. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, that was the basis, that was what 
convinced you there was something behind it, and he was what he 
represented himself to be? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; and unless I could have gotten additional 
information it would never have gone to the press. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe, Mr. Gilbert, at the time I interviewed you 
in New York the early part of last week you stated that you had 
seen this individual enter the employees' entrance of that club on one 
occasion only. 

Mr. Gilbert. On two occasions, I told you. 

Mr. Whitley. You stated at the time I talked to you in New York, 
Mr. Gilbert, one occasion. 

Mr. Gilbert. I think you are mistaken. I remember it was two. 

]\Ir. Whitley. I can refer to the transcript on that. 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, it was pretty late at night, then — both of us 
pretty tired — I don't know whether the stenographer made any mis- 
takes or not, but I know I told you two occasions. We were all pretty 
tired after a 6-hour session that time — hot night. 

Mr. Dies, could I make a small statement? 

The Chairman. You will have ample opportunity. 

Mr. Gilbert. All right. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, in any event, on your examination Thursday 
you testified you had seen him enter that employees' gate on two 
occasions. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Once at your instance and once, I believe you said, 
when he didn't know you were watching him. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; I saw the man on the street and I followed 
him. 

Mr. Whitley. To refresh your memory regarding your testimony 
on Saturday — on Thursday you stated that the procedure followed in 
obtaining this information was for the mysterious informant to call 
you up. 

Mr. Gilbert. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. You stated you did not know how to get in touch 
with him. 

Mr. Gilbert. He always made that the basis of it for some reason 
or other. He didn't trust me altogether. I don't know why. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3311 

ISIr. Whitley. That he would call you up and arrange to meet you 
in some place. 

Mr. Gilbert. Railroad station, hotel, any place that he wished, 
and I would 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). You would meet him at the place 
designated and at the time designated and he would hand you a 
report written in longhand. 

Mr. Gilbert. And then we would go to a desk in some hotel and 
I would copy it down and hand it back 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). Let me bring it out in questioning. 
And that you would take that report and in his presence immediately 
copy it down just as he had written it out himself? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And that you would then transmit that report to 
Mr. Campbell. 

Mv. Gilbert. Yes, sir. That explains why some of those things 
to Mr. Campbell are so badly written. I had to do them in a hurry ; 
the fellow wanted to go. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not rewrite those reports? 

Mr. Gilbert. Only when they were too much of a scribble, other- 
wise Campbell could not have read them. 

Mr. Whitley. You ordinarily took the report as he gave it to 
you and copied and mailed it immediately? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; or within 24 hours. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, all of those, practically all of 
those reports to Campbell were sent air mail, special delivery, were 
they not? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. I wanted him to get it as soon as possible. 
A few may have been sent just air mail, but I think they were prob- 
ably all air mail, special delivery. 

INIr. Whitley. Most of them you sent were ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, time was of the essence ; you wanted 
to get those reports through to him? 

Mr. Gilbert. I thouglit they were most interesting and he should 
get them as soon as possible. 

Mr. Whitley. And there may have been a few occasions when you 
made slight corrections in the report as furnished you? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, if the fellow had used bad English, something 

I'll ' c? 7 O 

like that. 

Mr. Whitley. But you made the corrections 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). In his presence. 

Mr. Whitley. You made those corrections at the time you were 
copying the report in his presence ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. AVhitley. And then you took that report that you copied in 
his presence and sent it out usually immediately, never more than 24 
hours afterward, to Mr. Campbell, air mail special delivery? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, I would think within 24 hours, yes; sometimes 
more likely within 2 or 3 hours afterward. 

Mr. AVhitley. You didn't, though, rewrite those reports or delay 
the transmission? 



3312 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir; I did not. I got them out of my hands as 
quick as possible. I didn't like even having them. 

Mr. Whitley. And the predictions which he made and which 
came true were practically the sole basis or the only thing that you 
had to convince you that there was anything to those reports and 
that was what caused you to feel free to distribute information of 
the type that was in those reports ? 

Mr. Gilbert. That was what caused me to feel free to give that 
information to the 40 men working with us, but not with the press. 
I did not want to hurt certain people I thought had been hurt enough 
already. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, that was the only confirmation of any kind 
you had that there was anything to those reports, is that correct? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you, Mr. Gilbert, letter dated Sunday, April 
16, and the envelope in which that letter was mailed. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. The envelope is dated Atlantic City, N. J., April 
16; that is, it is post-marked "Atlantic City, N. J., April 16, 1939, 
8 p. m." 

Mr. Gilbert. I think you will find the 16 on that with reference 
to the date. 

Mr. Whitley. I will ask you to identify that envelope as the 
envelope that was mailed to Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. I got I think a special delivery letter that 
day, and a man called me on the phone also. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, that constitutes one of your reports? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Which you transmitted to Mr. Campbell in that 
manner ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley, After obtaining the information in the manner in 
which you have just described? v 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. From your mysterious source of information, Mr. 
George Rice? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. I knew him as that name. I don't know 
what other name he had. 

Mr. Whitley. In this letter, Mr. Gilbert 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). He called me — may I tell you where 
he called me? He called me at a booth in Child's Restaurant which 
I had written him the number of. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. In this instance why the information was 
furnished to you by your informant by telephone. 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir; he merely called me up to O. K. what he 
sent me. He was afraid it didn't get tlii"ough to me down there and 
he wanted to make sure I got it. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. In your previous testimony before the com- 
mittee, you stated that one of the predictions which he made and 
which was subsequently confirmed in the newspapers and which 
caused you to have confidence in the accuracy of his reports was his 
prediction tliat the fleet, then in the Atlantic, was going to be ordered 
back to the Pacific ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3313 

Mr. Gilbert. That is one of the most recent ones of his. 

Mr. Whitley. You stated that prediction was subsequently con- 
firmed in the press? 

Mr. Gilbert. It was, within a few days. 

Mr. Whitley. And that convinced you that he was all right, 
because he had predicted this move on the part of the Navy and then 
it came true ? 

Mr. Gilbert. That was one of the more recent things. He had 
been doing this right along, and I cited it because it was more in 
m}^ memory at the moment. I took the things nearest to date and 
went back with you. 

Mr. Whitley. You stated that was one of the instances in which 
his predictions, as you called them, were confirmed? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Reading from this letter which you have identified, 
dated Sunday, April 16, addressed by you to Mr. Campbell, and 
which was in the nature of a report of information received from 
your informant, second paragraph : 

Fleet has been ordered to Pacific at once, canceling program of Navy 
Department. 

Mr. Gilbert. I read that in the paper- 



Mr. Whitley (interposing). That is the prediction he made and 
which you were transmitting on to Mr. Campbell ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No ; I think that was a confirmation of the prediction. 

Mr. Whitley. No; you are reporting, according to the letter, Mr. 
Gilbert. Let me read the preface to that, to show where you got that 
confidential information : 

Dear J. E. : Your Friday letter received late Saturday, just after I had 
finished a long-distance talk with our friend — 

by your friend you are referring to your informant ? 
Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Whitley (continuing reading) : 

who covers the music. He said following: "Fleet has been ordered to Pacific 
at once, canceling program of Navy Department"— 

that is the prediction you referred to in your testimony Thursday 
that was later confirmed in the press? 

Mr. Gilbert. He had said that both in writing and over the phone. 

Mr. Whitley. You know, Mr. Gilbert, as a matter of fact, the 
Navy Department officially released the information that the fleet 
was being ordered back to the Pacific at 12 : 15 p. m. on Saturday, 
April 15. That was more than 24 hours before your letter was mailed 
to Mr. Campbell. Would you call that convincing confirmation of 
a prediction? 

Mr. Gilbert. Will you look at the post date on that other thing; 
when was it sent ? 

Mr. Whitley. The post date on the envelope ? 

]Mr. Gilbert. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. It is postmarked Atlantic City, April 16, 8 p. m. 

Mr. Gilbert. When was that released? 

Mr. Whitley. It was released on Saturday, April 15, at 12 : 15 
noon; more than 24 hours before your letter transmitting this predic- 
tion with reference to the Navy, transmitting this inside information. 



3314 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

was sent to Mr. Campbell, why it had been officially released by the 
Nav}^ Department. 

Mr. Gilbert. If the Navy had in the meantime officially annovmced 
the thing, I see no reason why that in any way discredits the letter, 
as the information in there was several days before I sent the letter, 
and therefore before the Navy Department issued that statement. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you got this information about 
the fleet being moved several days before you wrote the letter ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I did not. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not? 

Mr, Gilbert. No, sir. And may I add something right here which 
calls attention to the committee : I have told you gentlemen of the 
committee recently that whereas in the beginning of these reports, 
gentlemen, we sometimes waited a month or 2 months for confirma- 
tion, more recently they have come very rapidly, within 3 to 10 days, 
and this is one of the rapid examples that I told you about. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, you referred to this as a prediction, in your 
jDrevious testimony. 

Mr. Gilbert. It still is. 

Mr. Whitley. There is no prediction in it 

Mr. Gilbert. Certainly is. Certainly is, because that man got the 
date there 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). Just a minute. I will accord you the 
courtesy of letting you finish your remarks. 

Mr. Gii^ert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. There is nothing in the nature of a prediction, al- 
though you call it that, because the information was not sent out 
until more than 24 hours after it had been officially announced by the 
Navy Department. 

Mr. Gilbert. It was certainly a prediction, and the statement was 
made before the Navy Department issued the thing, and the fact I 
was in Atlantic City and didn't send it to Campbell until after the 
thing had been confirmed by the Navy Department does not discredit 
the original statement. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. You had received this information several 
days before you sent it out ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I had not, but if you look into that thing, the date, 
look at the date, what does it say, Thursday or Friday, a day or two 
before the Navy issued the statement, which you say was Saturday, 
and I get the thing afterward, isn't that correct, sir? Will you read 
that thing? Doesn't it say Thursday or Friday? What does in say 
in there? You just told me a minute ago. And Saturday your Navy 
report came out. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Gilbert. And I got the thing 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). And that confirmed the prediction 
which had been evidently made previously ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. I will read again, Mr. Gilbert, for your informa- 
tion, the first paragraph of this letter, your letter being written on 
Sunday, April 16. You state : "Your Friday letter received late Sat- 
urday" — which was the previous day — "just after I had finished a 
lonir-distance talk with our friend who covers the music" — in other 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3315 

words, you received a letter from Mr. Campbell on Saturday and 
you also talked to your friend on Saturday. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And that is the basis for this report which you are 
making, transmitting this prediction which was made by your in- 
formant. 

Mr. Gilbert. The man sent me a letter, and he called me on the 
phone and confirmed that letter. He doubted me getting it down in 
that place. I told you where the call came from. I told you the 
place. And Mr. Campbell happening to write me a letter had noth- 
ing to do with that letter. Mr. Campbell's letter came from the 
West. Now, if you have got Campbell's letter you can read it. 

Mr. Whitley! The fact remains that this wonderful prediction 
which your informant made, insofar as your letter reflects and the 
postmark on your letter reflects, was sent to Mr. Campbell approxi- 
mately 36 hours after it was released by the Navy Department of- 
ficially. That is correct, isn't it? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't think that is a fair question, for this reason : 
You give the audience the idea that I waited for the Navy to release 
it and then gave it. This thing was sent to me as reported of a date 
previous, gentlemen, to the Navy's release of this statement. It is no 
fault of mine if the United States Navy makes the announcement in 
betAveen the date this information was gotten and the date I received 
it and sent it to Campbell. I hope that is clear to everybody. As I 
said before, more recentl}^ things have been coming quickly. Before 
they were a month, 2 months, but now very recently, and that was 
the point that was getting me worried and why I was going to give 
this to Mr. Dies in a couple of months more if this thing continued 
this way. 

Mr. Whitley. INIr. Gilbert, your first paragraph here indicates — 
of this letter to Campboll — that you had talked to your informant 
by long distance Saturday — you don't say Saturday afternoon or 
Saturday morning — and that he had at that time furnished this 
information, made this marvelous prediction which you are trans- 
mitting on to Mr. Camjibell for dissemination. 

Mr. Gilbert. He confirmed his prediction which had been mailed 
to me. 

Mv. Whitt.ey. I see. Was that the usual procedure; for him to 
write you a report when you were out of town and then call you and 
confirm it by telephone? 

Mr. Gilbert. No; it was not, but I think he was so worried and 
excited over the situation that he called. 

Mr. Whitley. And you say that was several days previously that 
he wrote you? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. Your own thing there says Thursday or Fri- 
day, I don't remember, whatever you read. 

Mr. Whitley. You are referring to Campbell's letter — you say, 
"Your Friday letter received late Saturday." 

Mr. Gilbert. That is — yes; Campbell's letter came late Saturday. 
I thought you were talking about the other gentleman. 

Mr. Whitley. Campbell's letter came in, you say, "just after I 
had finished a long-distance talk with our friend." 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know what date Campbell's letter came in. 



3316 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Well, you are referring to Campbell's letter, and 
you say "late Saturday," which would be the previous day. Late 
Saturday would be Saturday afternoon. 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know. You can mix me up at 4 : 30 in the 
afternoon and 2 in the morning, I wouldn't know, off the record. 
Mr. Whitley. Let's work this out logically. 
Mr. Gilbert, Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You state in your letter to Campbell that you had 
received Campbell's letter the previous — late the previous day — Satur- 
day. You say that "just after I had finished a long-distance talk 
with our friend," which means that you talked, had a long-distance 
talk with your friend late Saturday. 
Mr. Gilbert. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You said "just after." 

Mr. Gilbert. It doesn't matter what time it was, I received this 
thing and it was made — the statements in it were made several days 

before, and I do not see, Mr. 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). You don't have that letter in which 
he wrote you several days before and made this prediction and then 
waited until it was announced by the Navy Department to confirm it? 
Mr. Gilbert. I don't have it in my possession ? 
Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr, Gilbert. I haven't anything in my possession, 
Mr. Whitley. Did you save the letter he wrote you several days 
previously ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I said at that time to Mr. Dies I was not working 
under the similar conditions where the man was present and asked 
me to write things down and tear it up immediately. I did keep it a 
few days. 

Mr. Whitley. You kept it a few days? 

Mr. Gilbert, Yes. That was one of the exceptions. You see, he 
wasn't standing over me and getting me excited. He sent certain 
things in a rather coded way, and mailed them to me, as I explained 
to you, in that place down there, and that was an exception to thei 
rule. 

Mr. Whitley. In spite of your explanation, Mr. Gilbert, the fact 
remains that your letter or your report to Campbell was not written 
and was not sent out until 36 hours after this information had been 
officially released by the Navy Department. 

Mr. Gilbert. In spite of that I am willing to say, Mr. Whitley, that 
the information I got was several days — dated several days before the 
Navy sent it out. Regardless of when I sent it to Campbell or not, 
it does not take away from the fact that it was made several days 
before the Navy amiounced such fact. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. So that is one of the remarkable predictions 
that lent credence and made you believe that these reports were abso- 
lutely correct ? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is one of the later ones. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. That longhand report of yours, of course, ac- 
cording to Mr. Campbell's files, was typewritten by him and sent out 
to his mailing list, which he claims was 40, and no doubt was inter- 
preted by the persons receiving that report as another one of the 
marvelous predictions which your source of information was making. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3317 

Mr. Gilbert. Mr. Whitley, I am here as a witness to tell all I know 
about this thing. I know as a lawyer you have a right to discredit 
a witness. I don't think it is being fair. I think the whole attitude 
here has been to discredit people trying to give information for the 
Government and protect the people whom we allege are doing it. 
Citing proof of that, I wasn't allowed to see the press the other 
day. 

Mr. Whitley. With further reference, Mr. Gilbert, to the reports 
which were sent out, based on the informant and his predictions, I 
show you a copy of a report dated April 5, for identification. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes ; I remember that letter. 

Mr. Whitley. That is one of the original reports, longhand re- 
ports, you sent Mr. Campbell ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know whether the April 5 there means when 
I sent it to him — usually I had two dates on some of those things, 
one the date I sent it to him and one the date when the thing hap- 
pened. Now you will have to read through that to see for yourself. 
I don't think it is fair to ask me to answer that. 

Mr. Whitley. This was April 5, 1939 ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. 

Mr. W^HiTLEY. This report is in the usual form, which supposedly 
is verbatim information furnished by your informant based upon 
conversations he had overheard in this club ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitney. This is one of the reports that you met him and sat 
down in his presence and wrote it out and then forwarded to Mr. 
Campbell ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Wait a minute. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman? 
What date w^as that ? 

Mr. Whitley. April 5, 1939. 

Mr. Gilbert. Then that is not a true statement, because I was in 
Atlantic City, I think, on the 24th of March, as I remember. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Gilbert. I believe, to the best of my ability, Mr. Chairman, I 
remained there about 4 weeks. 

Mr. Whitley. Quoting from this report: "First speaker, (blank), 
from Washington, D. C, who said Frank's son James will in a few 
days leave for England with a special message from his father to 
our London friends on plan 3. It will be said to the public that he 
is going abroad on a business trip for motion-picture concern he is 
connected with." Then immediately after that in your own hand- 
writing you state, "Proof: Washington papers on April 8, 3 days 
later, said James had sailed from England" — I suppose you mean 
"for England" — "in interest of motion pictures, a motion-picture 
company" 



Mr. Gilbert (interposing). That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Just a minute: "He sailed on the Queen Mary, a 
British ship." Now, how does it happen 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). I picked that paper up on the C. & O. 
train coming back from 

Mr. Whitley. Just a minute. Let me ask the questions. How 
does it happen that this prediction, this prediction which was fur- 
nished to you over, or rather which was based on information fur- 



3318 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

nished by your informant on April 5, was in the same report trans- 
mitting; that inside information, transmitting- tliat prediction, that 
you give the proof of it by quoting the Washington papers of 
April 8? 

Mr, Gilbert. Very easily, sir, I can explain that very easily to 
everybody. I was away, the thing was sent to Atlantic City. I was 
away. You can find the date on the hotel registers, Owenboro, Ky., 
and Indianapolis, and I did not see that thing until I got back to 
Haddon Hall, Atlantic City, and in the meantime on the train on the 
way in I bought the Washington papers when the C. & O. train 
stopped at this city, and I knew nothing about the report until I 
got in, and had the papers under my arm. I did not get things for- 
warded to me, as I was in the Middle West and there was no possible 
way of doing it. 

The Chairman. In every case did you send the proof of the pre- 
dictions along with the predictions? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir; things a month or 2 months, a week or 2 
weeks afterward, certainly not, only when they came close like that. 
You can find a few instances. And I don't think that should dis- 
credit the whole thing, because coming so close after, it was impos- 
sible for me to get Campbell through some of these things that were 
happening. That is how quickly they were happening. 

Mr. Whitley. In this particular instance you did, in your report 
of April 5, transmit the prediction and the proof in the same report? 

Mr. Gilbert. I tell you that I did, frankly, that I was on the train, 
that the report couldn't reach me, and I got this paper, by accident, 
and when I got back and got the report I sent it in the same thing 
with the report. And may I also say, gentlemen, that if I wanted to 
be dishonest on that thing I would have held it up and sent it in a 
later letter. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. The report is dated April 5 and your proof 
is Washington paper of April 8, so when you wrote this report at 
least it was April 8? 

Mr. Gilbert. I wrote it when I got back to Atlantic City and 
found the report there, 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Mr. Gilbert, do you read the Daily Worker? 

Mr. Gilbert. I do not. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not? 

Mr. Gilbert. I do not. Maybe Mr. Campbell does, but I don't 

Mr. Whitley. In this same report which I have just been refer- 
ring to, report of April 5, your informant furnishes information 
regarding plans for the May Day celebration in New York. 

Mr. (tilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. This information supposedly coming from having 
been overheard by — or beine; based on conversations overheard by 
him in this club. That was the basis of all of his reports, wasn't it? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Conversations he heard in this club. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. Sometimes they were outside of the club, ac- 
cording to him. I told you about that, and Mr. Dies the other day, 
too. 

Mr. Whitley. On the third page of this, your report, which you 
transmitted to Mr. Campbell, you state: "The May Day committee 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3319 

was an iiniisually good one this year." You go on and list the com- 
mittee, David Leeds, Manning Johnson, and four or five others. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Does it occur to you, Mr. Gilbert, that it is a coin- 
cidence that your informant lists those names exactly in the order in 
which they are listed in the Daily Worker several days prior to this 
report ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't read the Daily Worker, but, even if it was so. 
I wouldn't think it would discredit him if he heard the names given 
in the same way at the meeting they were published later in the 
W^orker. I should say that would confirm it, rather than show it 
wasn't so. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, these names, these seven names 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). I don't know; I haven't seen the Daily 
Worker. 

Mr. Whitley. These names as he heard them in the club, it just 
happened he heard them given or discussed in exactly the same order 
in which they had appeared in the Daily Worker? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Several days previously. 

Mr. Gilbert. I wouldn't consider that was discrediting him at all. 
If the names were announced of a committee — if I said "Sir. Dies and 
Mr. So-and-so," that might make that report in a meeting and might 
also be printed in a paper, and that wouldn't be saying I didn't give 
the proper roll of the Dies committee. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you think that the informant in overhearing 
these conversations which he heard in the club would remember these 
names, these seven names, and the exact description of each one ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I am sure he would, sir, because, remember, he was 
in the May Day parade himself, an international wokrers' order. 

Mr. Whitley. You just consider, then, this was a coincidence that 
he had a list of seven names with the identification of those names 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). I think it was the normal thing for 
him to do. 

Mr. Whitley. Let me finish my question: You just consider that a 
coincidence, he heard these names given in conversations in the 
club, confidential conversations, in exactly the same order and with 
the same descriptive data as to them as it appeared in the Daily 
Worker several days previously? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't see where that discredits him in any way, 
whether he heard it said in the meeting or read it in the paper after- 
ward. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. That is just a coincidence as far as you are 
concerned ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. I don't see anything wrong about that. 

Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairman, I doubt if the witness is getting the 
significance of this thing. The statement is that these names were 
given in the Daily Worker in this particular order 3 or 4 days before 
this supposed informant gave them to you as having overheard them 
in this club. Now, the significance is that he may just have read 
them in this Daily Worker 3 or 4 days before and then handed them 
to you as if he had heard them in these private conversations. 

94931— 39— vol. 5 10 



3320 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gilbert. I might recall to your memory, if you can dig it up in 
the newspaper files, that they were listed after that I think in the 
New York Times sometime around there, weren't they, and the other 
New York papers — I don't recall. 

Mr. Mason. I don't recall that. 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't recall which paper it was in. The mere fact 
that they appear in the paper in the same way, Mr. Attorney, that 
he heard them in the meeting doesn't discredit the gentleman, and 
the mere fact that he knew^ the names of the organizations, as a man 
in the radical movement himself he would know the names of the 
leaders — would be familiar with them. 

Mr. HeAlet. But they were available to the public prior to the 
time that you are supposed to have had your information. That is 
the point that the attorney is trying to make here. 

Mr. Gilbert. I gather all that, and I also gather that the man 
heard them in the meeting, and the fact that they were available to 
the public doesn't mean he was a crook. 

Mr. Healey. But he conveyed the information to you subsequent 
to the time they appeared in a newspaper. 

Mr. Gilbert. That I have no knowledge of, Mr. Attorney. 

Mr. Whitley. If I recall correctly, Mr. Gilbert, during our con- 
versation in New York you told me you read the Daily Worker quite 
often. 

Mr. Gilbert. I didn't tell you that, sir. That is a misstatement — 
mistake. I know you wouldn't make a misstatement, but it is' a 
mistake. 

Mr. Whitley. Reading from page 4 of this same report of April 
5: "Fourth speaker, (blank), stated Frank and Hull would both 
attack enemy nations again next week to help No, 3" — I sup])ose that 
means to help No. 3 plan. Right under that in your handwriting, 
"Proof : New York Times and New York Herald Tribune of April 9, 
front page, report them so doing." That means, of course, that this 
report of April 5 could not have been written before April 9 at the 
earliest; is that correct? 

Mr. Gilbert. No ; it means that report — what date was that, gentle- 
men ? I was told. 

Mr. Whitley. The report is dated April 5. 

Mr. Gilbert. Is that this year? 

Mr. Whitley. And your proof is newspaper items of April 9. 

Mr. Gilbert. I was still in Atlantic City, gentlemen, as I have 
told you before, I think, several times, that in Atlantic City we did 
not use the same method we used in New York. I wasn't under 
any excited fellow standing over me insisting I give it back. I took 
my time about it. After all, you go down there for a rest, and I 
think I was probably sitting around on the beach and had no great 
hurry to send it back. 

The Chairman. These 40 people, Mr. Gilbert, the friends 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). Friends of Mr. Campbell's, sir. I 
don't know most of them. I wouldn't be able to name them to 
you. I don't know who they are. I know who he's told me different 
times, but I honestly 

The Chairman. They are rather prominent people, are they not? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, sir, I think from what Mr. Campbell tells me 
they are men who are outstanding — they are either retired Army 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3321 

officers or Legion men, Veterans of Foreign Wars — yes, they are 
somebody in their community. They are somebody who has a stand- 
ing in their community. That is what he's told me. Now I can 
honestly tell you, Mr. Dies, I have never met any of these men. 

The Chairman. I understand we have a list. But the point I am 
trying to get at is this: How do you know that these men didn't 
disseminate this information all through their communities? For 
instance, Mr. Cooke who testified, said that he had shown it to his 
friends. Do you have any idea how far this information was dis- 
seminated through the country? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't think it got very far, sir. If it had, the 
gentlemen of the press would have had it on the front page long ago. 

The Chairman. Now, we found in Mr. Campbell's file a list of 200 
names. What assurance have we that this information wasn't sent to 
200 people? 

Mr. Gilbert. You have my word and Mr. Campbell's word that it 
wasn't. 

The Chairman. Well, you know these reports were mimeographed 
by Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Gilbert. And sent to 40 people, and the fact that Mr. Campbell 
had 200 names on his file — I might have a thousand on my files, too — 
sent them to 

The Chairman. You knew Mr. Campbell was traveling all up and 
down the country? 

Mr. Gilbert. I knew he was — friends would see these at times. 

The Chairman. He wrote you he was going to different States to 
make contacts. 

Mr. Gilbert. That is right. He was seeing these men — these 40, this 
committee of 40 he was organizing. 

The Chairman. Did this committee of 40 know they were in this 
organization ? 

Mr. Gilbert. It wasn't an organization. It was a group working 
together. 

The Chairman. All were working together ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; they were. 

The Chairman. And you don't know how many men they had told 
this to in their respective communities ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I do not, sir, but it couldn't have been many, A thing 
like that would have bound to have made the press. 

The Chairman. Don't you know a whispering campaign can go on 
all over the country without making the press ? 

Mr. Gilbert. It always does get in the press. 

The Chairman. There are those of us who remember the 1928 Al 
Smith campaign. 

]Mr. Gilbert. I campaigned for Smith that time, and it wasn't long 
before a lot of those things got in the paper in short order. 

The Chairman. Now, you say there wasn't any politics in this, 
despite the fact that you mentioned here that "U. Z."'s son also told me 
that Snow was building up a Nation-wide chain of Republican clubs 
for 1940 with the aid of the Crusaders." 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, isn't it a fact that in one of your reports or 
letters to Campbell that you suggested six questions that Campbell 
ought to circulate among his friends, particularly in the South, and 



3322 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

that amon^ those questions were some very scurrilous things about the 
President and his wife ; isn't that a fact ? 

Mr. GiiBERT. I don't remember that. If you will read it to me I 
will be able to answer. 

The Chairman. We are not going to read it in the record. 

Mr. Gilbert. I can't answer something you don't put in the record. 
Put it in the record ; I will answer it. But may I say something here 
I think will half answer your question, sir, without putting anything 
in tlie record you think derogatory to our President '. l\Iay I say 
this : Tn regard to the reference of a gentleman forming Republican 
clulxs, the Crusaders, that was one of the reasons I was warning Camp- 
bell to lay off that fellow, we didn't want to be tied in with any political 
organization. 

The Chairman. You don't recall suggesting that this scurrilous 
literature or whispering campaign be circulated throughout the South 
with reference to the President and his wife ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't recall that. If it circulated among our mem- 
bers throughout the South, that is one thing. 

The Chairman. Do you recall circulating that among your 
members ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I think possibly there were 12 or 15 men in the South ; 
yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You had no politics in mind? 

Mr. Gilbert. I had no politics in it. I refused to allow Campbell 
to dabble in politics, refused to allow in this particular instance — you 
have just quoted here in your question — I was warning Campbell, I 
was warning him agai' st having something to do with the man because 
I felt that man was tied up with the Republican Party organization. 
We wanted no part of a party movement. 

The Chairman. You don't know how many people were believing 
these reports, do you, and how many people they were whispering it to 
throughout the various States in the IJnion, do you? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know any more about that than you do. 

Mr. Healey. May I just ask one question ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Gilbert. There couldn't have been many, or it would have been 
in the ])apers long ago. 

Mr. Healey. Mr. Gilbert, this list of 40 were spread out pretty much 
throughout the country ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Healey. So that your information — you knew that your infor- 
mation which you forwarded to your man down at Kentucky, Camp- 
bell 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). I didn't know the address of every one, 
sir. 

Mr. Healey. You knew it was going to be disseminated throughout 
the country, didn't you ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; he told me he had a group of men he knew 
throughout the country. 

Mr. Healey. That, then, was your purpose in sending that to him, 
so he would immediately transmit that to this list that were in prac- 
tically all parts of the country? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; and in many cases, as I told you, when they 
could check back and finding anything for us, information that might 



UN-AMERICAN TROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3323 

confirm that in tlieir section — and I think I named them for you and 
Mr. Dies the other day, two incidents of that fact. 

Mr. Healey. All right, you have answered my question, sir. As I 
understand it, when you received this information from your inform- 
ant, that it was your custom to transcribe that as quickly as possible 
from the report which he gave you, and without any further checking 
for facts or for the truthfulness of that report, you sent that imme- 
diately to Campbell, knowing that Campbell was about to disseminate 
that throughout the country to this list of people he had. 

Mr. Gilbert. I knew Campbell was handing it over to — you say 
40 men ; I don't kno^y whether 41 or 39. 

Mr. Healey. But there was no effort on your part to check it on 
facts or truthfulness? 

Mr. Gilbert. It was up to Campbell and them to check it. I had 
only the source of information. 

Mr. Healey. But you knew it was your intention in sending your 
intelligence was to have Campbell send that out to his mailing list. 

Mr. Gilbert. IVIy intention was to have those gentlemen check on it 
with Campbell, not to give it to the public, which I haven't done. 

Mr. Healey. Don't you think it may be more effective not to have 
this appear in the press, rather to have this take the form of a whisper- 
i]ig campaign ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I do not. I have never known a whispering cam- 
paign in the history of American politics that has amounted to 5 
cents. 

The Chairman. What about the 1928 campaign ? You don't think 
the whispering cam])aign that went throughout the South had any- 
thing to do with who was elected? 

Mr. Gilbert. I think that old-fashioned prejudice was here a hun- 
dred years ago. 

The Chairman. You don't think the whispering campaign that was 
carried on, not in the press but outside the press, had anything to 
do with that in the South ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I think that feeling was there regardless of any 
whispering campaign, and would have made no difference whether 
that campaign was made against Smith or otherwise, that feeling 
existed in the South. I think it does today. I think it is unfortunate. 
I think many people are laboring under that impression. I want to 
defend the South, sir; I think there was more of that damn stuff in 
the North and West than there was in the South. 

Mr. Thomas. Quite a bit has been mentioned lately relative to cam- 
paigns, to political campaigns. What has been your politics ? 

Mr. Gilbert. My part in political campaigns? 

Mr. Thomas. What has been your politics? Have you been a Re- 
publican or a Democrat ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I have been a Democrat. 

Mr. Thomas. You have been a Democrat ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. I have never voted a Eepublican ticket in 
my life. 

Mr. Thomas. And who did you vote for for President ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I voted for Franklin D. Roosevelt. 

Mr. Thomas. How many times have you voted for Franklin D. 
Roosevelt ? 



3324 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gilbert. Once, at least, and I am not so sure the last time I 
didn't refrain from voting. I voted for him twice as Governor of 
New York. 

Mr. Thomas. Didn't yon state you voted for him four times ? 

Br. Gilbert. No, sir; I said I voted for him I thought four 
times. 

Mr. Thomas. Two for Governor and two for President? 

Mr. Gilbert. I do know positively that I voted for him once for 
President. I don't remember which time it was. I kind of think it 
was the first time. 

Mr. Thomas. Who was this Snow you have been mentioning? 
What was his full name ? 

Mr. Gilbert. His name is John B. Snow, and he is no particular 
friend of mine. He came over to see me. 

Mr. Thomas. You say he's been forming Republican organiza- 
tions ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I said that was the information given me by Mrs. 
Uzell's son, and I gave it to Campbell for what it was worth. 

Mr. Thomas. How long ago was that you passed that informa- 
tion on? 

Mr. Gilbert. Wliatever date is on the thing there. 

Mr. Healet. You are opposed to President Roosevelt now, aren't 
you? 

Mr. Thomas. Let me finish. 

Mr. Healey. That is in connection with your question. 

Mr. Gilbert. I can't answ^er you both, gentlemen. 

Mr. Healey. You are opposed to President Roosevelt now ? 

Mr. Gilbert. As this particular date I am. 

Mr. Healey. Very bitterly. 

Mr. Gilbert. I wouldn't say very bitterly. I would say if he 
might do some other things I might switch to him in 1940. 

Mr. Thomas. Who did you get this information on Snow from ? 

Mr. Gilbert. The person that the attorney here has stated, Mr. 
Uzell's son. He read it to you a few minutes ago. 

Mr. Thomas. And how long have you known him ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I had only met him that day in his mother's office. 

Mr. Thomas. And he just gave you that information in the con- 
versation and then you immediately wrote 

Mr. Gilbert. He did. I never saw him before or afterward. He 
called me on the phone a few times. 

Mr. Thomas. You knew nothing about him at all. 

Mr. Gilbert. I only knew he was connected with that kind of 
thing, and, therefore, I thought Campbell should be warned. 

Mr. Thomas. But as a result of that conversation with a man whom 
you didn't know, you have never met before, you passed the infor- 
mation on 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). I knew his mother for some time. 

Mr. Thomas. Let me finish. Yon passed the information on to 
Campbell, knowing it was going to be disseminated among the other 
40 people, isn't that true? 

Mr. Gilbert. That was not quite true. That was a personal letter 
to him, not a report. Will you read that? It is a personal letter. 
Personal letters I did not think were taken to other people. They 
were letters between myself and James E. Campbell. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3325 

Mr. Thomas. You had no promise from Campbell that any in- 
formation passed on by you to him wouldn't be passed on to others, 
did you ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir; and I had no i-eason on the other hand to 
think that it wovdd be. 

Mr. Thomas. Since the hearing on Thursday, last Thursday, where 
have you been? Have you been here in Washington, or did you go 
back to New York? 

Mr. Gilbert. I will very gladly tell everybody where I have been. 

On Thursday night I arrived back after taking my old aunt to the 
moving-picture show, about — I think the show got out around 11 : 30, 
and I was very much surprised to learn on getting to my hotel that 
the story of this thing had been given to the press, as I had been told 
by the chairman not to talk to the press. I tried to avoid them, and 
some of them did find 

The CiiAiRMAN (interposing). Let's correct that. 

Mr. Gilbert. You asked where I was. 

Mr. Thomas. I want to find out where you had been. 

The Chairman. You weren't told by the chairman not to talk to 
the press. 

Mr. Gilbert. I most certainly w^as. I was told not to see the press. 
I was put out a side door and told to go down the stairs. 

Mr. Thomas. My question is where he had spent his time between 
Thursday and now. That is what I want to find out. 

Mr. GiLBEART. I spent my time — I will go back with you — I spent 
my time yesterday at Mount Vernon at the shrine of Washington and 
looking over the battlefields of the Civil War. On Saturday I was 
in Washington, D. C, as I was on Friday. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you spent any of this time in New York? 

Mr. Gilbert. I have not been in New York, sir. I will tell vou 



"■5 



exactly 

Mr. Thomas. Have you telephoned ? 

Mr. Gilbert. My wife called me to say a lot of newspaper people 
were yowling at her and wanted to find out — my father called me. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you make any attempt to contact this alleged 
informer in this club ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I most certainly did not. 

Mr. Thomas. Has he made any attempt to contact you ? 

Mr. Gilbert. He most certainly has not. 

Mr. Thomas. Wouldn't you say that the newspaper publicity over 
the past few days has been unfavorable to you ? 

Mv. Gilbert. Decidedly, particularly when you told me to keep my 
mouth shut, and you can damage me. 

Mr. Thomas. Isn't it reasonable, then, you might try to contact this 
informer in order to prove your statements ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I did not. 

Mr, Thomas. But isn't it reasonable to expect ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I wouldn't think it was. I should think, after what 
you have done, that man is running like hell, if he is still alive. 

Mr. Thomas. You made no attempt to contact him at all ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I certainly did not. I try to play fair with the com- 
mittee. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, getting back to the report of April 5, 
Avhicli we were discussing a moment ago. 



3326 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. I have already read you two predictions in that re- 
port, with the proof of those predictions w-ritten out just under tliem ; 
on page 4 of that 

Mr. Gilbert (interposino). Those things are from Atlantic City, 
may I ask ? Are they Atlantic City ? 

Mr. Whitley. Wliat ? 

Mr. Gilbert. What dates were they this year ? 

Mr. Whiti.ey. What dates were the proofs ? 

Mr. GiLBiRT. No; what dates were these things? Was it in March 
or April 1939 ? 

Mr, Whitley. They were April. 

Mr. Gilbert. In the year 1939 ? 

Mr. Whitley. That is right. 

Mr. Gilbert. Then I was still in Atlantic City, gentlemen. Re- 
member, I had a little diiferent method there than I did in the other 
plan. There was nobody standing over me to force me to write at all. 
I was taking a vacation. 

Mr. Whitley. Page 4 of that same report contains another predic- 
tion, one of the predictions which was later confirmed in the press. 
The prediction supposedly obtained from your informant reads as 
f ollow^s : 

Governor Lehman in Army Day speech after parade in New Yorlv on Saturday, 
April 8, would demand United States at once prepare for war. Would thus 
speed No. 3 sentiment. 

Mr. Gilbert. That was my remark. No. 3 — not his remark. 

Mr. Whitley. Immediately under that prediction is written out in 
your handwriting : "Proof : New York Times, front page, April 9, 
so reports." Did that happen in the same manner as the other pre- 
dictions and proofs which you have described in this same report? 

INIr. Gilbert. May I ask you a question to clarify that? Are you 
stating now that I put something in a letter in the way of a clipping 
to some report I had received that Mas made before and that I did 
not send the letter until I got the clipping and the clipping and letter 
went together, and therefore you discredit the letter? The answer is 
that if I w^anted to do that I wouldn't have been dumb enough to do 
that ; I would have waited 4 or 5 days and sent it. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, this report is dated April 5, and 
it couldn't have been written until after April 9 because you make 
references to new^spaper articles of April 9. 

Mr. Gilbert. That is right. What I have been telling you gentle- 
men, at Atlantic City I took it easy, nobody standing over me. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, Mr. Gilbert, when Mr. Campbell received thesei 
reports you will notice before he had them typewritten to send out 
to his mailing list that he had the proofs that you had furnished in 
there all stricken out. 

Mr. Gilbert. I had no knowledge of that. 

Mr. Whiti^ev. In other words, his typewritten report based on your 
longhand report just contains the prediction, it doesn't contain the 
proof which was contained in the same report. He struck all of the 
proofs out, and has just the predictions copied in the typewritten re- 
port which he sent out to his contacts. 

Mr. Gilbert. I think that is perfectly fair, for this reason : He was 
giving a report, not my side remarks on it. He wasn't writing any- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3327 

thing in that wasn't the man's report ; he wasn't writing my side re- 
marks in the letter. 

Mr. Whitley. Of course, he could then, Mr. Gilbert 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). You see, mine were in parentheses. 

Mr. Whitley. When he got in touch with the members of this 
mailing list he could make reference to this report of April 5 and 
point to the predictions and then he could say, "Now go look at the 
press and you will see this confirmed, 3 or 4 days later." 

Mr. Gilbert. I think he did better than that. I think he used to 
put a little slip in it, in the same letter: "This is in the press such 
and sucli a date." 

Mr. Whitley. He would also point out those confirmations? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. They had no business in there. They were 
not in tlie man's statement. They were in my remarks, and they 
were in parentheses so they wouldn't be mistaken for the man's in 
there. 

Mr. Whitley. He would strike those out, circulate the predictions, 
and then several days later why he would 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). I don't know, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Let me finish the question — several days later or 
weeks, when he was in touch with that particular person on the 
mailing list who had received that report, he would say, "Now do you 
question this fantastic information? Why, look, right here is a pre- 
diction which is confirmed here, 4 or 5 days later." 

Mr. Gilbert. Mr. Whitley, what you are trying to insinuate is that 
Mr. Campbell held things up deliberately that way. If we wanted 
to play that kind of game I could have held things up a week, which 
we did not. 

Mr. Whitley. Maybe some of these reporters were held up a 
week. We will see in a few minutes. 

Mr. Gilbert. That is your idea, not mine. 

Mr. Whitley. The fact remains, that particular report contains 
three predictions, inside information obtained by your informant, 
and the report transmitting those predictions contains the proof in 
every instance, the proof being 4 or 5 days after the date of. the 
report, the date that was on it. 

Mr. Gilbert. And they were all written, were they not, from 
Atlantic City? And it wasn't my fault if things happened so fast 
between the date I forwarded the thing on and the date he sent the 
letter. 

The Chairman. All right, gentlemen, let's recess until 2 o'clock. 

(Whereu]wn, at 12 : 45 p. m., Monday May 22, 1039, the hearing 
was recessed until 2 p. m, the same day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

(The hearing reconvened at 2 p. m.) 
The Chairman. The committee will be in order. 
Mr. Gilbert, will you please resume the stand ? 
Whereupon, 

Dudley P. Gilbert, the witness on the stand at the time of recess 
resumed the stand and testified further as follows : 

The Chairman. Mr. Gilbert, I have here a letter written b^ yo" 
on Tuesday, April 18. 



3328 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gilbert. What year, sir? 

The Chairman. The year is not on the letter. 

Mr. Gilbert. May I see it ; maybe I can identify the year. 

Tlie Chairman. It is on the envelope, it is April 18, 1939. 

Mr. Gilbert. All right, sir. 

The Chairman. I will read part of the letter. 

Mr. Gilbert. I was still in Atlantic City at that time. 

The Chairman (reading) : 

Dear J. E. : New York Times editorial April 17, clipping enclosed, takes point 
of view Frank's pence talk not really so, but only a smart move to put Italy 
and Germany on spot. Times goes further and says even if Germany and Italy 
accepted it would be ignored. Russia, France, and Britain would go right 
on preparing for war. The words of Italy and Germany are worthless. 
Then why invite them to conference if you refuse to accept in advance any- 
thing they would agree to or promise? The answer is Frank makes it im- 
possible for them to accept. Then he uses that fact that they do not accept to 
incite American people to point where they would easily follow plan No. 3. 

What is plan No. 3? 

Mr. Gilbert. Plan No. 3, gentlemen, was getting the United States 
involved in a foreign war, out of which we would become sovietized 
as a Nation. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

Finally, by, as a Pharisee, talking peace in which he does not believe, he pro- 
tects himself from being called a warmonger. He enjoys baiting Germany, 
Italy, Japan, Spain, and Hungary, while perfectly covered up with a phony 
peace smoke screen. The music boys get paper, the Jewish-owned New York 
Times lets the cat out of the bag. Read and see for yourself. Our friends 
must all see that as soon as possible it is very important in fighting plan No. 3. 

That represented your views? 

Mr. Gilbert. It does, it did then, and it does today. I stand 
100 percent back of it. 

The Chairman. Now, I see here where you have requested ques- 
tions to ask "our Dixie friends." I am not going to read those 
questions. 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, I can't answer them if you don't read them for 
the record. 

The Chairman. I am going to let you read them, but we are not 
going to read them into the record because they are too vile for publi- 
cation. I want you to look at them and as you do, I want to ask you, 
do you think that is the type of stuff to circulate with reference tO' 
the President of the United States and his wife ? 

Mr. Gilbert. If it is so, why not? If you want me to answer it, 
put it in the record and I will answer it gladly. 

The Chairman. You didn't know whether it was so or not? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, it is quite evident that the lady did resign 
from the D. A. R. 

The Chairman (interposing). That is not going into the record. 
I asked you, did you know that anything of the things you had to 
say there were true? 

Mr. Gilbert. I just said I did, and named one, and 3^011 ruled me 
out of order. 

Mr. Healey. Does he admit that that is his own handwriting? 

Mr. Gilbert. Certainly, why not. 

Mr. Healey. And he is the author of those charges ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I am the author of those remarks. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3329 

Mr. Healey. And you furthermore directed that it be disseminated 
throughout the South, is that right ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I thought they ougth to look into it ; yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you say they ought to look into it or that it 
ought to be spread around? 

Mr. Gilbert, Read what my words were. 

The Chairman. You say this: "Questions to ask our Dixie 
friends." Then you list six questions. 

Mr. Gilbert. You will note I asked question. 

The Chairman. Yes; but isn't there a way of asking questions 
that would forward a whispering campaign to assassinate someone's 
reputation and character? 

Mr. Gilbert. I didn't know that, I am not a lawyer like yourself. 
As far as giving it to people in the South, I think the South has a 
right to know the truth. 

The Chairman. Yes; but you yourself didn't know whether that 
was true? 

Mr. Gilbert. I just showed you I did know one of them was the 
truth. 

The Chairman. Why were you suggesting that the questions be 
asked, if you knew them to be true? 

Mr. Gilbert. Because I didn't want to accuse anybody of anything, 
I wanted the matter proved elsewhere. 

The Chairman. All right; proceed, INIr. Whitley. 

Mr. Healey. Before he resumes, may I ask this one question ? 

The Chairman. Certainly. 

Mr. Healey. Of course in writing such a letter you have indicated 
your state of mind with reference to President Roosevelt and Mrs. 
Roosevelt ? 

]Mr. Gilbert. I have only asked a question in there. 

Mr. Healey, But you directed that those questions be asked: in 
other words, the subject matter of the questions you wanted dis- 
seminated, spread around, spread about particularly in the South? 

Mr. Gilbert. I wanted the answers from those men down there — 
does that sound as if I was disseminating it? 

Mr. Healey. I would think that that was your purpose, in having 
it disseminated. 

Mr, Gilbert. I wouldn't say so. 

Mr. Healey. It is perfectly obvious. 

The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Whitley. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, will you furnish a description of this 
mysterious informant of yours, George Rice? 

Mr. Gilbert. I gave it to you once. I told you to the best of my 
ability he was a man of medium height and I figured weiglied around 
160 pounds. You have in the record there also the way he parts his 
hair, and he parted his hair, I think, on tlie right side. We said it 
was the same as that of the distinguished chairman. His hair was 
a very dark brown, as I remember. You asked me if I knew if he 
had any marks about him or the color of his eyes, and I told you that 
I couldn't tell you the color of anybody's eyes on the committee, I 
can't. 

Mr. Whitley. How old was he? 

Mr. Gilbert. I told you he appeared to be at the time in his late 
30's or early 40's. I am not a good judge of age. 



3330 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas, Mr. Gilbert, you said you saw the alleged informant 
walking in a parade? 

Mr, Gilbert, Yes, sir ; I did. 

Mr, Thomas. Where were you when you saw that? 

Mr. Gilbert. I was at the corner of Twenty-ninth Street and 
Fifth Avenue, sir, on May 1, 1939, in the afternoon. 

Mr. Thomas, Approximately how many people were there in that 
parade ? 

Mr. Gilbert. In my estimation there were between fifty and sixty 
thousand, 

Mr. Thomas. And you picked him out of the fifty or sixty thousand ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I was right on the front curb, next to the police- 
men, and I was looking to see who I knew. I didn't expect to see 
him there. 

Mr. Whitley. You know, of course, that anyone can march in 
those parades ; they don't have to be members of that organization ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I didn't know that, I thought you had to be a member 
of the organization or union. 

The Chairman. Just in that connection, you told the committee in 
executive session, as I recall, that after you were subpenaed to come 
here, after Mr. Whitley talked to you, Mr. Kice called you on the 
tele])hone ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you told him something to the effect that he 
ought to appear before the committee and testify? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman, Is that right? 

Mr, Gilbert, Yes, sir. 

The Chairman, What did he say ? 

Mr. Gilbert. He accused me of selling him out, was mad as hell, 
and hung up on me. 

The Chairman. That is the last you have heard of him ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; and after all this publicity I think I would 
have an awful hard time finding him. 

Mr. Thomas. But you have made no attempt to find him? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is the business of you men, not mine. 

Mr. Thomas. Nevertheless the publicity was unfavorable and in 
order to clear up your own name isn't it natural that you might try 
to find him? 

Mr. Gilbert. It would be, but I knew he couldn't be found. 

Mr. Thomas. ^Yliy did you know that? 

Mr. Gilbert. For the simple reason that when you put in the 
papers a thing like that, and that man was in mortal danger of his 
life, he would be a damned fool to stay around and be bumped off. 
I woiddn't know where to reach him. 

Ml'. Whitley. He called you up, and according to your statement 
you tipped him off that we might b^^ loolcing for him. several days 
before there was anything in the papers about him, is that correct ? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is not exactly correct. I didn't tip him off. I 
was trying to help you and Mr. Dies at the time, and you said to me 
that day in New York, "See if you can get this man to testify," and 
I did my best to try to help you and Mr. Dies. I didn't try to tip 
him off and that is all the treatment I got out of it. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3331 

Mr. Whiti.ey. I show you, for identification, Mr. Gilbert, a letter 
or report addressed by you to Mr. Campbell. The report is dated 
May 2, and the envelope in which it was forwarded to Mr. Camp- 
bell, air mail special delivery, from New York, is postmarked May 
7, 1939. Will you identify this? 

Mr. Gilbert.' This, you will note, gentlemen, is not an actual copy 
of proceedings at these alleged meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. I just asked you to identify the letter, is that your 
writing? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is my handwriting, yes. That is merely re- 
marks of his that were sent to me and I forwarded them at a liter 
date. 

Mr. Whitley. This purports to be information or a report made to 
you by your confidential informant? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; but it was not a report of a meeting, it was a 
general hash of things that he had picked up. 

Mr. Whitley. It represents alleged conversations he had overheard 
which is the basis of all of his reports ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, some of his reports, may I correct you, most of his 
reports are reports of meetings, actual meetings that occurred, regu- 
lar formal meetings. That one is not, that is just simply stuff he 
had jotted down and sent to me, and there was no necessity of putting 
that through right away, the way the other reports were. 

Mr. Whitley. You said he sent it to you. I thought he always 
called you up and you met him some place ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No; I didn't say that. I said that in this particular 
case there was no necessity, after me getting that thing, to send it 
out immediately. If I made a slip in the words, it is because you 
have been asking me about Atlantic City, where he has sent things. 

Mr. Whitley. There was no hurry about this one ? 

Mr,. Gilbert. No ; that was not a report of a meeting, that was 
merely his opinion on different things he had heard here and there. 

Mr. Whitley. This report is captioned : "Notes on what our friend 
heard around Music Boys, May 2 to 4, inclusive." 

Mr. Gilbert. IMay I ask you, do you see anything on there to in- 
dicate what we used to call a "score"? Does it say "score" of such 
and such a date? 

Mr. Whitley. No. 

INIr. Gilbert. Therefore it is not one of his regular reports. 

Mr. AVhitley. But it is a report of information he furnished you ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Not one of his formal reports, one of his informal 
things that didn't require immediately being sent to Campbell. 

Mr. Whitley. Under date of May 2, in this report, it reads as 
follows : 

* * * tells a small group Negrin, Red ]eader of Spain, is in New York 
on way to Mexico where he will arrange to concentrate 200,000 Spanish Red 
troops now interned in France. Most of these will he within 2 or 3 days' 
march from United States border, a great help in No. 2 plan. 

Right tinder that, in your handwriting: 

Proof. — May 3. New York newspapers stat^e Negrin is at Plaza Hotel for 1 
week on way to Mexico, where he wiU arrange with Mexican Government for 
transfer of Red Spaniards now intermd in France, to Mexico. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; I wrote that. 



3332 UN-AMERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Is that one of the marvelous predictions that gave 
you such confidence in your informant? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is a prediction that hasn't yet come true. The 
men are not yet transferred to Mexico because Xegrin himself says 
he is going- there to arrange for it. 

Mr. Whitley. But you furnish, as proof, quotations from New 
York newspapers of May 3 ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Why not? The New York newspapers had it in. 

Mr. Whitley. That report was not forwarded until May 7? 

Mr. Gilbert. There was no hurry for it. 

jMr. Whitley. That is 5 days after the first period covered by this 
report ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Certainly, there was no hurry for that. That wasn't 
one of the regular reports but a supplementary thing that he wrote 
once in a while. 

Mr. Whitley. You weren't in Atlantic City at the time this report 
was received, were you? 

]\Ir. Gilbert. I was back in New York, and there was no hurry 
about it. 

Mr. Whitley. And you obtained it in the usual manner? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; as I recall I got that in the St. Moritz Hotel, 
Fifty-ninth Street and Sixth Avenue. 

Mr. Whitley. In the same report, under May 3, you state : 

Music Boys thanked by Harry Bridges union for sending 150 giis masks 
to striking sailors at Everett, Mass., after they had been gassed by police in 
riot. 

Immediately under that : 

Proof. — May 4 (the following day), the papers report several pickets arrested 
with gas masks. 

That is another one of the predictions that came true? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is not a prediction. I told you what type of 
letter that was. But it did prove that what the man was saying was 
true because you again have the American press proving it them- 
selves. 

Mr. Whitley. And we again have the report, not being sent out 
until several days after it had been confirmed by the American press, 
also. 

In the case of this report, which you say was unusual 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). There were a number like it, you will 
probably find some more in Mr. Campbell's files. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Campbell did the same thing that he did in the 
previous reports we have referred to, in that, in having it typed to 
send out to his mailing list, he struck out the proofs which you had 
put in there and just sent the predictions. You don't know in what 
manner Mr. Campbell used to later call it to the attention of his mail- 
ing list that the predictions had come true? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know what Mr. Campbell did. I wasn't out 
there, as you know. 

Mr. Whitley. But this is another one of the unusual ones? 

Mr. Gilbert. I take exception to that remark as trying to biasi 
the people against me. 

Mr. Whitley. You stated the previous ones I read you were un- 
usual because you were in Atlantic City? 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3333 

Mr. Gilbert. All right, read one back when I wasn't in Atlantic 

City. 
Mr. Whitley. I ask jou to identify the report dated January 25, 

1939? 

Mr. Gilbert. What was the date on this envelope ? 

Mr. Whitley. I haven't got the envelope for that one, it couldn't 
be found. 

]Mr. Gilbert. It is apparently in my handwriting ; yes, sir. I sent 
that. That was given to me and I sent it to Campbell for what it 
was worth. 

Mr. Whitley. Was there anything unusual about the manner in 
which you obtained this one or was this routine? 

Mr. (jtilbert. Eoutine, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That is, your informant called you up ? 

Mr. Gilbert. As far as I know there is nothing unusual about it. 

The Chairman. Right in that connection, is there a single instance 
of any of these reports sent out that you actually sent the report 
out before it was confirmed in the newspapers? 

]Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; I think you will find dozens of those in- 
stances if you will look back in the older reports you have. The only 
reason these things got out later in the last few months was, as I 
told the committee the other day, these things, instead of coming 
a month, 5 or 6 weeks afterward, came in such rapid succession that 
we had hardly time to get them out. 

Mr. Whitley. I have been over all the available reports, I think, 
very carefully. I haven't as yet found any as described by Mr. Gil- 
bert. I would be glad to make those reports available to him after 
the session and see if he can find anj^ 

Mr. Gilbert. How long back have you these reports, for a year 
and a half? 

Mr. Whitley. They go back for at least a year and a half. 

Mr. Healey. Mr. Chairman, does counsel mean the information 
that is transmitted in these communications was already published 
in the newspapers prior to the information being disseminated in the 
manner that he uses for that purpose ? 

Mr. Whitley. That is right, that is not published prior to the date 
on the report, but published prior to the date the envelope was mailed. 

Mr. Thomas. How does that, Mr. Counsel, jibe, with the informa- 
tion that we got in the executive hearing the other day, the state- 
ment that was given out to the press and wdiat we read in the press. 
I am not trying to defend the witness at all, but I want you to get 
this thing cleared up for the record. Were there any incidents that 
were reported by the informant and then reported by INIr. Gilbert 
to Campbell, that took place some time afterward ? 

The Chairman. Well, you recall the testimony of Mr. Cooke, who 
testified that some of the predictions were made prior to the an- 
nouncement in the press. That was the evidence we had before us the 
otlier day in the executive session. We then recessed until Monday 
to afford us an opportunity to check the files which we had seized, but 
had not had an opportunity to go through. This is a result of an ex- 
amination of the files themselves. 

But the information you are asking for is answered by the testi- 
mony of Mr. Cooke, who, as you recall, did testify that some of the 
predictions came true later, as indicated in the press. 



3334 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. Have we found, then, by a later test, tliat tliat was not 
correct, that all of this information was reported in the press at about 
the same time or immediately thereafter? 

Mr. Whitley. We are just citing a number of instances, Mr. 
Thomas, some of which were cited by the witnesses in previous hear- 
ings, in which the proof of the prediction is contained in the same 
report that contains the prediction, which means that the report was 
written after it appeared in the press. 

Mr. Thomas. I see, but are there any instances where the report 
w\as written long before it a])peared in the press? 

]^^r. Whitley. I haven't found any and I have just offered to let 
Mr. Gilbert go over the records. 

Mr. Gilbert. May I cite one example now, and if you will look 
back as far as the spring of 1938, there is, in one of these reports, a 
reference to eliminating the older officers of the Army because of their 
connection with the veterans' organizations. Gentlemen, 1 year after- 
wards it took to confirm that thing, and only a few weeks ago it was 
announced in the papers, and went out to the Army, the oi'der for all 
officers over 40 years of age to take a physical examination before 
special boards. 

Mr. Thomas. Is that the only instance you know of? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is one, offliand, there were a great many of these 
things. 

Mr. Thomas. Can you recall one other? 

Mr. Gilbert. Not right off tlie bat, I don't know exactly. I w^ould 
be glad to go through it with tlie attorney and look into those things. 

May I make a statement right now, too ? 

One thing hasn't been brought out here, is tliis, and that is that 
this man would get these reports, he didn't always find it convenient 
nor was he able to reach me immediately, a day or two afterwards. 
Sometimes it was 2 or 3 days before he reached me. Now, I am not 
responsible for the fact that he didn't reach me before that date, and 
that in itself would sometimes make these things later than they 
should be. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you mean sometimes or quite often 
he would get information in advance, through conversations in the 
club, and then before he could get to you to give it to you, it would 
be confirmed in the press ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I wouldn't put it that way. I only wanted to say that 
there were times when he gave me the reports 2 or 3 days after he had 
gotten them. I didn't get them within 24 hours. 

Tlie Chairman. You mean after he said he had gotten them? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes. 

Mr. Whitijey. You have identified your report of January 25? 

Mr. Gilbert. Is that the one I just looked at? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes; which you sent to Mr. Campbell for dissemi- 
nation through the medium of the mailing list. 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. This report allegedly has to do wdth a meeting of 
the group at which the confidential informant was present and over- 
heard conversations. The report reads as follows : 

* * * of star boys, read a letter from * * * wliicli stated that if 
the innsif boys wanted anything from the Army or Navy to see * * * was 
assured bv "* * * that he had his permission to interfere in Army or Navy 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3335 

any time lie saw fit. * * * ended by saying that ttie generals and admirals 
were of no more importance than the big, stupid gentile uniformed doormen 
that stood outside Jewish-owned apartment houses in New York, and like 
the doormen we can fire them if they do not please us. Watch what happens 
to some of them this year. 

Immediately under that in your handwriting : 

Proof.— New York Herald Tribune, January 27, 1939 (2 days later), stated: 
'<* * * i^.^fi goue over the head of the Army and allowed French officers 
to learn our plane secrets. Clippings enclosed." 

In other words, this report was not written or mailed out until 
after the mysterious prediction had been confirmed in the press? 

Mr. Gilbert. Because the gentleman at that particular time — will 
you give those dates again? 

Mr. Whitley. The report is dated January 25, and in your proof 
which you write just under it you make reference to newspaper 
reports of January 27, 2 days later, to prove the accuracy of the 
prediction. 

Mr. Gilbert. I just told you the man gave his reports sometimes 2 
or 3 days later. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, maybe he had had a chance to see 
the papers before he made the report ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No; he didn't. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, there is a 2-day lapse between the date of the 
report and the date of the proof, which you state in your own hand- 
writing in your own report ? 

Mr. Gilbert. That referred, as I understand what you have just 
read, to the head of one department going over the head of the other, 
without mentioning names, in the French deal that everybody read 
about in the papers, about the planes, which wasn't found out until 
a plane crashed out there. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, you have the proof of the prediction right 
here ; you furnished that with the report. Tell me this : You stated 
Thursday, and you stated again this morning, that this was the pro- 
cedure followed: You would meet the informant at a designated 
place; he would hand you a longhand report? 

Mr. Gilbert. Quite true. 

Mr. Whitley. You would sit down and copy that right there and 
then would send it out immediately, air mail, special delivery ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Quite true. 

IVIr. Whitley. You said sometimes there would be as much as a 
24-hour delay, but the mere fact that you used air mail, special 
delivery, showed that time was of the essence ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Quite right, if he handed it to me a few 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). You also said that you did not re- 
write or recopy those reports after you wrote them in his presence. 
Did you write in the proof while he was standing there, as you 
were copying the reports? 

Mr. Gilbert. I did. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he furnish you the proof with the reports in 
each instance, or did you just supply it? 

Mr. Gilbert. I knew about it in one instance. I said, "This is 
very extraordinary, but it is in this morning's paper." 

In other instances, I didn't write them in until later. 

94931— 39— vol. 5 11 



3336 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, in some instances you did rewrite 
the reports so you could prove the predictions, by putting the proof 
in there? 

Mr. Gilbert. Sometimes where a thing was badly written I took it 
home and rewrote the thing; and if the cases of proof came up then, 
I put them in. 

Mr. Whitley. You didn't indicate this morning that you might 
have written these reports on a few occasions, rewritten them, but 
they were exceptionally rare ? 

Mr, Gilbert. They were exceptionally rare. 

Mr. Whitley. Most of the time you got them off immediately? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; I believe that was written in his presence, 
that one ; I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. And he didn't furnish the proof; you just supplied 
that to supplement his report ? 

Mr. Gilbert. If I happened to know of something at the time. 

The Chairman. In other words, if he was giving you information 
upon several occasions you happened to have the proof with you, and 
you said, "That is extraordinary." 

Mr. Gilbert. I said, "Here is the New York Times this morning; 
I read it in there, and it is rather extraordinary that you had the 
thing in here." 

The Chairman. You were talking to him, and he showed you a pre- 
diction, and you said, "Here it is in the New York Times, showing 
this is true"? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; I said, "You ought to give them to me a 
little earlier." 

Mr, Whitley. INIr. Gilbert, one of the cases you cited Thursday, 
where a wonderful or rather mysterious, unusual prediction had come 
true, was confirmed, I believe you said, a considerable time later. That 
was the French mission to purchase Army planes from this country ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I think you read that testimony from another witness, 
a Mr. Cooke, or whatever his name was, from Tennessee, and he testi- 
fied to you that he got it 12 days later. 

Mr. Whitley. You can readily understand, can't you, that where 
the mailing list received these reports, dated January 25, and con- 
taining a prediction, and then they checked up the newspapers and 
saw that 3 or 4 days later that thing had come true, they would 
naturally think that was a prediction, and it wouldn't occur to them 
that that had been written after the matter appeared in the 
newspapers ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, I think it was written before. I don't want 
you to put words in my mouth which I didn't say. 

Mr. Whitley. I wasn't quoting you, I was just making an 
observation. 

Reading from the same report of January 25, this relates to the 
incident which has been used, not by you, but by another witness to 
establish the authenticity of these reports : 

* * * has arranged for French to buy 100 million worth of planes and 
plane equipment. These and other credits were being secretly arranged, which 
would force United States to enter world war to protect Government invest- 
ment investment or go bankrupt. In either case we win, as their choice is 
between No. 3 and No. 2 plans only. 



UN-AlNraRirAX rROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3337 

Immediately under that prediction, written in your handwriting: 

Proof — late edition of New York Evening Sun January 27, 1939, clipping 
enclosed. 

Did you carry the clipping with you when you went to meet the 
informant ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No; I cut that out afterward before I sent it. See 
what time that thing was mailed. I told you I usually sent those 
tilings within 24 hours. 

Mr. Whitley. We know^ it was mailed after January 27, because 
you make reference in the report to clippings of that date. 

Mr. Gilbert. What date was that clipping, what time of day was 
the thing mailed? 

Mr. Whiixey. I don't have the envelope, but in any event we know 
it was mailed after January 27, or you couldn't be referring to a 
news item of that date. 

Mr. Gilbert. I sent it out, as I have told the committee repeatedlyy 
within 24 hours after, in the usual way. If, before I sent that out, I 
read a paper that bore on it in some way, I usually sent a number of 
clippings along. I had nothing to do with printing the newspaper, 

Mr. Whitley. To coinj)lete reading the proof which you ofler for 
that statement: 

Late edition of New York Evening Sun (that is January 27, 1939, 2 days 
after the date of the report) clipping enclosed, stated — had failed to clear up 
sale of 600 United States military planes to France. Frank said he approved 
of this deal. 

Mr. Gilbert. What was wrong with saying that ? 

Mr. Whitley. That is another one of the predictions that has been 
cited to establish 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). Mr. Whitley, I don't know what you 
think of me or not — it doesn't make any difference particularly; but 
I am not dumb enough to send that thing in the same letter; if I 
wanted to fool anybody it would be easy to hold the letter up for 3 
or 4 days. 

^Ir. A^'hitley. Did you know Mr. Campbell was going to hold that 
up when you sent it to him ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I did not. 

Mr, Whitley. In this, as in the previous instances cited, after re- 
ceiving the report Mr. Campbell struck out all of the proof, and he 
just ])ublished in his typewritten report for circulation to the mailing 
list, the preclictions ; he didn't cite in the reports the proof which you 
furnished him. 

Mr. (tilbert. You told me that this morning. I didn't know any- 
think about how Campbell handled things. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you ever receive any copies of reports back from 
Campbell ? 

Mf. (tilbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. You never saw any of the reports sent out by Camp- 
bell? 

Mr. Gilbert. Not until I saw them here. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gilbert, this same report contains two other 
similar instances, but I assume your explanation would be the same? 

Mr. Gilbert. It probably would. 



3338 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. That is, a prediction and a proof — so we won't go 
into it. 

Mr. Gilbert. I can't answer it when I don't know what you are 
asking. 

The Chairman. Why not afford him an opportunity — we have an- 
other witness here we want to proceed with — so wliy not afford the 
witness an opportunity to go through this with you when you get 
through, and find out if he can give us a single example where the 
prediction was actually sent out before there was some announcement 
in the paper to that effect. 

Mr. Gilbert. Mr. Dies, before you send me out of the room, could 
I make a little statement, and may I preface it with this? 

It has no hard feelings for anybody. You told me this morning 
I could make that statement. 

Mr. Healey. I would like to ask just a few questions before that. 

You said this morning that your objective was to obtain 3,000,000 
members for the organization known as the American Nationalists, 
Inc.? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Healey, Was it your purpose and the purpose of the other 
founders of this organization to charge a membership fee — initiation 
fee? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir. 

Mr. Healey. You weren't going to charge any membership fee at 
all for this organization? 

Mr. Gilbert. No ; that was one of the foolish things we did. If we 
had, we would have probably gotten somewhere. 

Mr. Healey. Were you going to sell them anything, any insignia 
or such? 

Mr. Gilbert. Nothing at all. 

Mr. Healey. So you didn't depend on getting any money from 
your membership at all? 

Mr. Gilbert. No. 

Mr. Healey. Well, now, the State of New York issued to the 
American Nationalists, Inc., a charter of incorporation? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is quite right, they did. 

Mr. Healey. When was that? 

Mr. Gilbert, As I remember it, I am not sure of the exact date, I 
think it was back in April 1935. The exact date you will have to 
find out. I think it was the latter part of the month. 

Mr, Healey. Was this corporation or organization a charitable 
or eleemosynary corporation? 

Mr. Gilbert. You will have to read the preamble of that thing to 
see that. 

Mr. Healey. Can't you of your own memory cite what the pur- 
poses were as related in your articles of incorporation ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I can answer you — not being a lawyer and being at 
a disadvantage in that respect — I can answer you that I remember 
the attorney who drew it up said, "This charter is wide enough to 
conduct most any kind of an organization within reason." 

Mr, Healey, You purposely framed it so you could cover a lot 
of ground ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3339 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir; we didn't know what we might want to do 
at any time. He said, "You can have anything here from a social 
club to a chowder party or a baseball team." 

Mr. Healey. You stated in there that the purposes of your organi- 
zation were charitable 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). I don't think so. 

Mr. Healey. Haven't you any memory of what purposes were 
cited? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't. A man, using legal language which I don't 
understand very well, drew it up. 

Mr. Healey. Has that charter ever been canceled? 

Mr. Gilbert. No, sir ; not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Healey. It still exists? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes, sir ; but it isn't in use. The reason I didn't turn 
it in and ask to give it up was that I was afraid that some of these 
fanatical types of organizations would take it over and do a lot 
of harm with it because it was a good name. 

Mr. Whitley. What type of organization? 

Mr. Gilbert. Fanatical type, which might be tied up with some 
foreign government. 

Mr. Healey. Now just one or two more questions, and I will be 
through. 

You referred this morning to the necessity of using the Spanish 
method this summer. I don't know that you fully explained what 
you meant yourself, what was in your mind when you referred to 
the "Spanish method." 

Mr. Gilbert. If you didn't personally understand, I should be 
pleased to answer you. 

I meant this, that if there was a leftist uprising in this country, 
something of the nature of counter attack that came in Spain under 
Franco would have to be gone into after the left had taken the field, 
not before. 

Mr. Healey. Did you feel that something of a militaristic nature 
would have to take place? 

Mr. Gilbert. I was afraid that it would be necessary in support of 
the Government. 

Mr. Healey. Is that your understanding of the Spanish method, 
some militaristic movement? 

Mr. Gilbert. I would understand that; yes. 

Mr. Healey. To supplant the present form of Government ? 

Mr. Gilbert. No; not to supplant it, to defend it. 

Mr. Healey. Now this operation of yours has entailed some ex- 
pense, hasn't it? These reports that were forwarded to Campbell 
and in turn disseminated by Campbell, have entailed a considerable 
expense ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I think you will see that in the record. 

The Chairman. The record shows the amounts. 

Mr. Healey. How much out-of-pocket have you been up to the 
present time, from the time you started this movement up to the 
present time? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't know; but I don't think it is anywhere near 
as high as you say. 



3340 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Healey. Wliat is your recollection? 

Mr. Gilbert. Well, it is different for different months. You will 
find that some of those things which Mr. Whitley gave me this morn- 
ing have reference to $25 or $30. I would imagine, on the basis of 
2 years, it was 5 or 6 thousand dollars. I didn't have the money 
myself and my wife didn't get busted in 1932 as I did, and she loaned 
me the money to give to Campbell. 

Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Gilbert, would you say that the great majority 
of the American people believe in and want very much to keep 
democracy ; would you agree to that ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I certainly do; and I do, also. 

Mr. VooRHis. Would you agree also that if that be true, then, that 
certain things have got to be brought about in the minds of the 
American people if any group which seeks to change that democratic 
form of government is to be successful ; do you agree to that ? 

Mr. Gilbert. It isn't always necessary for 

Mr. Voorhis (interposing). I mean 

Mr. Gilbert (interposing). Do you want me to answer that ques- 
tion? I w^ill answer it if you will allow me to. Most revolutionary 
movements are not backed by a majority but a well-organized minor- 
ity wath sufficient authority to force its purposes on the majority. 

Mr. Voorhis. And what is the thing that gets that small group 
working together, isn't it usually the fact that that group of people 
is sold on the idea that they must carry out this forceful movement 
in order to forestall a movement of somebody else? 

Mr. Gilbert. It doesn' usually work that way. 

Mr. Voorhis. Well, I believe it has, and I think I can point to a 
great many instances. 

Mr. Gilbert. May I ask your name, sir ? 

Mr. Voorhis. The next question I want to ask you is this: The 
most important thing about these reports w^as not the prediction, 
but it was the fact that the things that you put into those reports 
were put there as though they were part of a plot to overthrow the 
Government, isn't that the most important part? 

Mr. Gilbert. We believed it was all equally important, every part 
of it. 

Mr. Voorhis. Well, what reason did you have to believe that that 
was actually the case; I mean, what proof did you have when you 
sent these reports out, that the things that were reported therein were 
actually a part of such a plot; what proof did you have? 

Mr. Gilbert. They subsequently occurred, as I showed you a few 
minutes ago. 

Mr. Voorhis. An event occurred. But I think Mr. Whitley has 
fairly well demonstrated that those events had already hapjjened 
befoi'e the reports w^ent out. But even if they had been accurately 
predicted, the important thing is the fact that you said this event 
w^as a portion of a plot. What I want to know was, what proof did 
you have to say that that was a portion of a plot ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Other than this course of events, and may I state 
further both to you and Mr. Dies, that for that reason we didn't 
give it to the public, we didn't want to do harm to people who 
shouldn't be harmed until it was absolutely ]Droven, and that is the 
reason we didn't give it to the press. You know if we gave it to 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3341 

the press or even certain oro;anizations of a bijjoted nature, they 
would spread that throughout the country, and I think that is proof 
that we didn't want to malign people until it was proven. 

And may I add also that I did not give anything out about a cer- 
tain club. That came from the committee. I tried to protect that 
club's name. I think a lot of the men in there are good, God-fearing 
people, but the committee saw fit to put it out, and they can blame 
the committee, not me, if their names are hurt. 

Mr. VooRHis. You know, don't you, Mr. Gilbert, that people on 
both extremes in our society would say that the reason that they have 
to contemplate the possible use of force in the future is because 
somebody else is going to do it? 

Mr. Gilbert. I wouldn't doubt that is true amongst the fanatics 
of the left, and right. 

Mr. VooRHis. I think so. But isn't it also true, therefore, that the 
things that you put in these reports were calculated to create that 
very sort of state of mind which would lead people to be entirely 
ready to take up forceful action against a danger, real or imagined, 
which you had pictured? 

Mr. Gilbert. I disagree with you because they did not go to fa- 
natics or fanatical organizations. 

Mr. VooRHis. I didn't say they did. 

Mr. Gilbert. Sane people wouldn't act on a thing like that until 
they had thoroughly analyzed it and got sufficient proof, in addition 
to these clij^pings, and that is the reason we didn't give them out. 

Mr. VooRHis. I can't understand what their reason would be. 

Mr. Gilbert. Maybe you can't, I can. 

The Chairman. Isn't it a fact that you testified that the reason 
you didn't go forward actively with your first plan, the American 
Nationalists, Inc., is because you didn't get any publicity? 

Mr. Gilbert. Yes; I testified we got plenty of publicity in the be- 
ginning, and it didn't do any good. I also testified that I hadn't the 
money to do a thing, like the Democratic or Republican Party in a 
campaign fund. 

The CHAiR]\rAN. Didn't you testify that you couldn't get anywhere 
with your first plan? 

Mr. Gilbert. We couldn't organize the big organization of 3,000,000 
men, it wouldn't go off, it wouldn't go over. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you sent out your material 
to every newspaper in the land, in the beginning? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is quite right. 

The Cilvirman. To every editor? 

Mr. Gilbert. Whether they were favorable or not, I wanted their 
reaction. 

The Chairman. You tried that as your first plan, and failed? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is right. 

The Chairman. Then your next plan was this method of sending 
out these reports to a confidential list? 

Mr. Gilbert. If you will look back at my testimony, you will see 
that there was a long time in between before I did anything. 

The Chairman. Whether it was long or short, your second plan 
was the one under which you are now operating, isn't that a fact? 

Mr. Gilbert. That is right, and that wasn't confined to sending 
out lists, it was also getting information from different people. 



3342 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Won't you agree that the most effective way of 
disseminating any information, or propaganda, or whatever you may 
term it, is through a whispering campaign, cloaking it in mystery 
and causing people not to make it public? Dont you know that 
that is the most deceptive form of propaganda that can be dissemi- 
nated ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't believe that is altogether so, but if that is 
true, gentlemen, the mystery put around this investigation will 
spread that thing quicker than anything that anybody else could 
do, and the Chairman is largely guilty of that. 

The Chairman. You have your own opinion with reference to 
that. 

Mr. Healey. Mr. Chairman, is it possible for us to have the charter 
of this organization? 

The Chairman. We have that charter. 

Mr. Mason. If and when there is a Red uprising, you have stated 
that the Nation or groups in the Nation should be ready to launch 
a counter attack ? 

Mr. Gilbert. By that I mean they should volunteer their services 
at once to the constituted authorities, be they police or Anny or 
Navy. 

Mr. Mason. But there shouldn't be any counter attack until after 
the overt act of the Red uprising? 

Mr. Gilbert. Certainly not, so as to be within the law. 

Mr. Mason. But what should be done to get ready to make this 
counter attack so that the counter attack will be ready at the time 
the Red uprising comes? 

Mr. Gilbert. The manpower to hand over to the police depart- 
ments of the various cities, and the National Guard, when they 
may be short of manpower. 

The Chairman. Don't you recognize that racial or religious hatred, 
or class hatred, in the country paves the way for some form of 
dictatorship ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I do not. 

The Chairman. Don't you know that in Germany and Italy that 
was the preliminary preparation made? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't remember it was true in Italy. 

The Chairman. Do you think you are serving a patriotic principle, 
or doing a patriotic service, when you are spreading reports that 
you haven't even verified? Do you think you were rendering a 
patriotic service when you did that? 

Mr. Gilbert. In the first place, I wasn't spreading them, I wa? 
only giving them to 40 people. 

The Chairman. But don't you know that these 40 people were 
talking these things over in their respective States ? 

Mr. Gilbert. Why didn't it get into the papers ? 

The Chairman. Do you think the papers would print the stuff 
you have got in there, most of the things you have in these reports? 

Mr, Gilbert. Some of it would have gotten in under one form or 
another. 

The Chairman. Don't you know they would be guilty of libel? 
You didn't even know they were true, how could a paper print 
something which you didn't even verify? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3343 

Mr. GiuJERT. All those things weren't libel, and yon know there 
are a good many organizations that would have spread it, and didn't. 

The Chairman. There are a good many organizations in this 
country that are spreading about the same type of stuff, aren't there ? 

Mr. Gilbert. I don't think so, and I think if it is being spread, 
it is due to the fact of the state of mind created by this rather strange 
investigating committee. 

The Chairman. You may have one opinion of that, and I have a 
very definite opinion of you. 

Mr. Gilbert. I have a very definite opinion of you, too, sir. 

The Chairman. You are excused. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Mr. Campbell, will you take the stand? 

ADDITIONAL TESTIMONY OF JAMES E. CAMPBELL 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Campbell, I believe at the time you testified be- 
fore the committee last Thursday, you stated that the American 
Nationalists, Inc., the corporation which Mr. Dudley P. Gilbert has 
set up, ceased to exist or ceased to function in the latter part of 1936 
or the early part of 1937 as an organization ? 

Mr. Campbell. I said that I met Mr. Gilbert in 1936, and in the 
latter part of 1937 and in 1938 I did some work with him, to try to 
see if we could extend his organization, and because he was attempting 
to put in chapters without dues, that it was impossible to make the 
thing a go, that you couldn't get the membership. 

Mr. Whitley. And after that attempt had been made and failed, 
then the American Nationalists, Inc., as an organization, ceased to 
function ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. As far as I know that is absolutely 
the truth because I have only operated as an individual. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you for identification, Mr. Campbell, a car- 
bon copy of a letter dated April 6, 1939, which was in your files. It 
is addressed "Dear Friend." 

Apparently it was prepared for widespread distribution to a mail- 
ing list. Will you identify that, please? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; but that had nothing to do with this, and 
I can explain it. 

Mr. Whitley. Let me ask you the question. I just wanted you to 
identify it, Mr. Campbell. You will have an opportunity to explain 
it. 

In the first paragraph of this letter you state : 

Dear Friend : Shall we passively allow an organized minoi'ity to imsh us into 
another World War? I am assuming that your answer as an American nation- 
alist Is no. 

This letter is dated April 6, 1939. How do you reconcile that with 
your testimony that the American Nationalists ceased to exist? 

Mr. Campbell. Because in all of my statements ever since 1932 I 
have classified myself as an American nationalist, as opposed to the 
internationalist propaganda which is going on in this country by the 
Communist Party, not from the standpoint of democracy because it 
has been so misused, but I am an American, I believe in national 
American ideals and principles, and I have stood on that platform, as 



3344 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

opposed to the international ideology that has been rife in our coun- 
try, particularly for the last 6 years. 

The Chairman. Another paragraph of this letter, Mr. Campbell, 
follows : 

It is recommended that yourself and all persons whom you can contact or 
influence who are interested and would be affected by this country's entry into 
another foreign war immediately petition your Senators and Congressmen re- 
questing the passage of a strong neutrality act, with full authority vseted in the 
Congress of the United States. 

To whom were you sending these letters? 

Mr. Campbell. I sent that to a list of approximately 150 people 
that I knew, and in that I enclosed the address that I made on April 
6, on Army Day, because I am personally opposed to going into any 
foreign war. 

The Chairman. Well, we are all opposed to that, so you won't get 
any controversy on that. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you for identification, Mr. Campbell, a car- 
bon copy of a letter dated May 9, 1939, addressed : 

Dear Skipper. 

Could you identify that? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Whitley. Who was that letter addressed to? 

Mr. Campbell. Mr. Gilbert. 

Mr. Whitley. You called him "Skipper"? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You also referred to him as "Uncle" and as "Uncle 
Dudley," did you not? 

Mr. Campbell. Occasionally. 

Mr. Whitley. In the last paragraph of this letter you state as 
follows: 

R. S. J. is definitely a Christian NO. 

Who is R. S. J.? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't remember that initial right now, or what 
it had reference to. 

Mr. Whitley. Why did you just use the initials, was that by way 
of precaution to keep from revealing a name? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; most of the time I do everything that way. 

Mr. Whitley. "Is definitely a Christian NO." What does the "NO" 
stand for? 

Mr. Campbell. I think that should have been Naval Reserve. 

Mr. Whitley. A Christian Naval Reserve? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. What would be the purpose of such an 
identification ? 

Mr. Campbell. I will be frank with you right now, I don't know 
what that was. 

Mr. Whitley. You just used initials of that kind? 

Mr. Campbell. NO isn't Naval Reserve. 

Mr. Whitley. It must have meant something, you used it de- 
scriptively ? 

Mr. Campbell. But I don't recall right now what it is. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3345 

Mr. Mason. What does the word "Christian" signify? Does it 
have the connotation that we regularly give it, or does it have any 
other particular significance beyond that? 

The Witness. It has the connotation that we regularly give it. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you usually, in your letters, describe your contacts 
as to religious beliefs or connections ? 

Mr. Campbell. If I have found somebody a Communist I am not 
going to call him a Christian, and I call everybody that isn't a Com- 
munist a Christian, to my own knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

But we are advised to not give out too much information until he is properly 
educated. 

What do you mean by "properly educated"? Properly educating 
R. S. J., whoever he might be? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, by that I mean until we are absolutely con- 
vinced, or rather have convinced him that there is a propaganda afoot 
to throw the United States into a foreign war. I have been interested 
in this thing, as I said, primarily from the standpoint of the Ameri- 
can, or I will call it a nationalist, as opposed to internationalist, 
international ideology, and the propaganda that has been going on, 
and I have tried constantly since 1932 to educate people to that belief 
that the job of Americans is to stay at home and attend to their own 
business, and I have tried to show them what we lost out of the last 
war, that there is nothing to be gained, and I think if I could get you 
alone for 2 hours I could convince you of that. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you consider the spreading of antiracial or anti- 
religious propaganda as a necessary part of your educational pro- 



gram ? 



Mr. Campbell. No, sir; and I am not antireligious or antiracial. If 
you will read the statement that I gave to Mr. (Committee Investi- 
gator) when he came into my office, I think that qualifies my stand. 

Mr. Whitley. We are trying to determine j^our stand from your 
own writing, and from your own letters, and not just from your own 
statements given to the committee. 

Mr. Healey. Mr. Chairman, do I understand the witness is not able 
to define what he meant by the words "Christian NO"? 

Mr. Whitley. He doesn't recall what he meant. 

Mr. Healey. You want to say to the committee that you don't 
know what you meant by that ? 

The Witness. I don't know what I meant by "No." 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). "That will be done by degrees, but 
fairly rapidly," referring to the fact that you can't give him too 
much information until he is properly educated. 

Would you explain there what you meant by that ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir, I will ; because I have seen a lot of people, 
friends of mine, who have felt that we should go to war right now 
against either Europe or Asia or some other foreign nation, without 
knowing the background or the reasons, nothing more or less than 
an economic ideal to take us abroad for an international ideology. 
And I have tried in my own humble way to show that America 
couldn't possibly gain anything by it, and asked them what we had 
to gain, and who are we afraid of, and wiiat nation could attack 



3346 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

US, and it does take a little time, but you can do it fairly rapidly 
with them. 

Mr. WnrrLEY. In other words, under your system of disseminat- 
incr these reports, you consider the educational system, you have to 
build up gradually until you think the individual is convinced as 
to the accuracy of the reports, and then you can give him more 
information, probably more startling or more fantastic information, 
and he will be able to absorb it ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; the reports that were sent out, as I told 
you, had been only sent to a very select mailing list of people whom 
I knew personally. It was sent for their own personal guidance. 
At no time and under no circumstances have I ever disseminated 
one of those reports where they could have been broadcast or macle 
public, because if they had been, it would have created strife in this 
country, which I am o})i)osed to, and it was merely for their guid- 
ance, as I testified the other day. 

Mr. VoRHis. You think these reports would have created strife 
in the country? 

Mr. Campbell. I doiTt know. 

Mr. VooRHis. Did you have any assurance that they wouldn't be 
given out? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir, I talked to most of the people; in fact, 
all of them personally. 

Mr. Whitley. Reading from the fifth paragraph of the same let- 
ter, Mr. Campbell — this is your letter to Mr. Gilbert — 

If what these reiwrts indicate, namely that fireworks are liable to start 
shortly after .Iiily 1, we certainly have to speed the detail considerably on the 
shack. I will be sending you a copy of the revised blueprint at the end of 
this week. 

"If what these reports indicate" — will you elaborate on that? 

Mr. Campbell. That is a personal letter between Mr. Gilbert and 
myself. I was referring to the reports which he had sent me, which 
seemed to indicate that under that plan 2, there was an attempt to 
be made for an intenal revolt if No. 3, which was to embroil 
us in a foreign war, failed, and Mr, Gilbert was fearful for his 
family, they were in New York and as he explained before the com- 
mittee, he was advancing the money for me to build a house in Ken- 
tucky where he could take his family in the event of any kind of 
any emergency. 

Mr. Thomas. Did Mr. Gilbert ever see any of these reports of 
yours ? 

Mr. Campbell. Only in my book form, I kept a copy. 

Mr. Thomas. He saw the reports? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't know whether he read them through thor- 
oughly, but I have always had them in my portfolio. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you send them to him ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. How did he get them ? 

Mr. Campi?ell. He sent the reports to me. When I would meet him 
in New York, or some place else, I always had that book in my 
portfolio. 

Mr. Thomas. And then he had an opportunity to see those? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't think he ever looked them over thoroughly 
because he knew what \vas in them. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3347 

Mr. Thomas. How did he know what was in them ? 

Mr. Campbell. He had sent the reports out to me. 

Mr. Thomas. This book that you had, and that you offered to show 
him, didn't he' ever glance through that at all? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; it was just a copy of each one of the reports 
as it had been received and filed there for my own reference. 

Mr. Thomas. And you took them up there with you? 

Mr. Campbell. All the time. 

Mr. Thomas. Why did you take them with you if you didn't want 
him to see them ? 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't object to him seeing them. 

Mr. Thomas. What was the purpose of vour taking them to New 
York? 

Mr. Campbell. I always carried that book in my portfolio. It was 
a binder, and every time I got a report from him I would file one 
of them in this book binder. 

Mr. Thomas. But you did have them in New York and he had an 
opportunity to see them ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; if he wanted. 

]Mr. Whitley. Reading paragraph 6 from the same letter, to Mr. 
Gilbert : 

Commeuts continue to pour in from over the country. Under separate cover 
I am enclosing a couple of things which I think will be of interest to you and 
thence have been sent out to contacts. 

"Comments continued to pour in from over the country." Mr. 
Campbell, do you mean that literally ? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; I meant from the people that I had sent that 
Neutrality Act letter to, the one that you asked me about here, and 
ihat is the one in which I sent the comments out on the Neutrally 
Act, and asked people to call upon their Senator with a copy of the 
speech which you have in the files, that I made. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the one that you gave a distribution of about 
150, I believe? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Paragraph 7 of the same letter : 

Postage is becoming a decided factor, but I believe the returns we are 
getting certainly justify the expenditure. 

Mr. Campbell. It cost 12 cents apiece to send those out. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, your mailing list was increasing or 
your volume of outgoing mail larger? 

]Mr. Campbell. No ; the mimeograph expense was increasing for the 
literature we sent out. The list itself had not increased, but the 
packages were heavier. 

Mr. Whitley. With further reference to your mailing list, Mr. 
Campbell, considerable has been said about it previously here today, 
at the hearing, or in your testimony before the committee on Thurs- 
day last. You were shown and identified a folder containing a list 
or various lists, the total of the names in those various lists approxi- 
mating 200. You stated at that time that that was not your mailing 
list but it was the various lists, and you only sent out these reports 
regularly to about 40 of the names contained in that mailing list ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. The other 160 in there were just for reference 
purf)oses ? 



3348 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Campbell. Some were for reference purposes, and some were 
the ones I sent those speeches to, but in that some two-hundred-odd 
names there w^re some forty-odd names that were receiving the 
reports. 

Mr. Dies, if it isn't out of order, and you can leave this out of the 
record if you want to, I would like to make a statement here to 
prove, and I think it proves conclusively, that I haven't tried to 
stir up strife. 

You had in my testimony the other day that in 1934, 1935, and 1936 
I was national chairman of the subversive activities committee of the 
Reserve Officers' Association. During that time I received much 
information. I went into various organizations and I tried to do 
what any other officer, perhaps dumbly, but honestly and sincerely, 
would do. I had made quite a number of contacts over the country. 

I am also department chairman of the Veterans of Foreign Wars 
for the department of Kentucky. I explained to you my connection 
witli General Moseley in a business way. Of course, we naturally had 
talked subversive activities some, and how Mr. Hamilton came into 
the picture, and these various people. During the past 6 months 
I have had in various cities, both from Legion posts and Veterans 
of Foreign Wars posts, and from individuals I have talked to, con- 
crete evidence, and have been taken into department stores by dis- 
charged American service men and shown where they have lost their 
jobs and it was given to political refugees in this country. 

The Chairman. Have you got any evidence of this sort that you 
will give this committee? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; if this committee will go to Nashville, Tenn. ; 
Louisville, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, and Columbus, it can find out by 
going into those department stores. 

Mr. Thomas. But what evidence have you got? 

Mr. Campbell. I went with some of those people to see it. If I 
had been trying to create trouble I would have gone out and taken 
affidavits from those people that had been fired at these various posts, 
and broadcast that information. 

The Chairman. How do you know it is true? 

Mr. Campbell. The fellows were fired. 

The Chair^ian. Who told you that they were fired; the men that 
had been fired? 

Mr. Campbell. Legionnaires, Veterans of Foreign Wars. 

The Chairman. Did you get the statement from a single man that 
had been fired telling you he had been fired? 

Mr. Campbell. I told you I did not make any personal investiga- 
tion on that. 

The Chairman. You heard that from hearsay? 

Mr. Campbell. I did not w^ant to concern myself 

The Chairman (interposing). In other words, all you found out 
was from what somebody tolcl you? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; because men said they would take me to the 
others who had been fired. 

The Chairman. But you didn't go? 

INIr. Campbell. No, 

Mr. Healev. You aren't able to furnish this committee with a 
solitary name of a person fired in that manner? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3349 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. Isn't it a fact that you yourself advocated a mih- 
tary dictatorship in the United States? 

Mr. Campbell. I have not advocated that. 

The Chairman. In your letter — do you mean to say that you have 
never advocated the establishment of some military dictatorship to 
save the United States? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir ; I have made this statement, that if things 
go bad in this country, the Army may have to establish, under proper 
authority, a military dictatorship until it is straightened out. 

The Chairman. That is what you said in one of your letters ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That that would be the ultimate solution? 

Mr. Campbell. That the Army would be the ultimate solution, or 
rather, salvation. 

The Chairman. That they would have to take over the Govern- 
ment? 

Mr. Campbell. No; that they would be acting under the Govern- 
ment. 

The Chairman. Didn't you say that they would administer the 
Government in the 48 States? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't know whether I said they would administer 
it in the 48 States or not, but I said that would be the ultimate salva- 
tion. 

The Chairman. Didn't you say, in a letter dated December 13, 
1938— 

Frankly, I say to yoii that this thing has gone so far that there is only one 
remedy and that is a military action which will put a military court in charge 
of the United States Federal Government and each State government, and let 
them operate under the Constitution until each State proves itself worthy of 
the right of self-government, and that can he done only by the citizens within 
each State cleaning house and exercising the right of free-born men. 

You said that, didn't you? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What else were you advocating except a military 
government ? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, I still think we may have to have it. 

Mr. Voorhis. May I ask just one question there? 

Mr. Campbell. I am sincere in my belief 

Mr. Voorhis (interposing). May I ask under what circumstances? 

Mr. Campbell. In the even of a Communist revolt in this country. 

Mr. Voorhis. But you haven't got any revolt now? 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't say that it had to be done now. 

The Chairman. You didn't say anything about a revolt. You 
said: 

Frankly I say to you that this thing has gone so far that there is only one 
remedy and that is a military action which will put a military court in charge 
of the United States Federal Government and each State government, and let 
them operate under the Constitution until each State proves itself worthy of 
the right of self-government, and that can be done only by the citizens within 
each State cleaning house and exercising the right of free-born men. 

You were advocating the establishment of a military government 
now to take over things until the States later on shoidd prove them- 
selves worthy of resuming the civil powers, isn't that a fact? 



3350 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Campbell. That isn't what I meant. 

The Chairman. What other interpretation can be gathered from 
such plain language as that? 

Mr. Campbell. That isn't what I meant. I meant if this thing 
breaks it would have to be done in that manner. 

The Chairman. You didn't say that ; you were very clear that you 
thought the time was ripe now. 

Mr. Campbell. How would I advocate that, Mr. Dies? 

The Chairman. I don't know how you would, I only have your 
own language. 

Mr. Campbell. How would I in any way be advocating anything 

like that? 

Mr. Healey. You said things had gone so far now. 

Mr. Campbell. That letter 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). Was that the reason, Mr. Campbell, 
that you confined your mailing list and the distribution of these in- 
flamatory reports practically exclusively to members of the Reserve 
Officers' Corps or to officials of the American Legion — was that in 
keeping with your plan? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; I had no plan or advocacy of that nature; 
that is my own personal belief. I have expressed that. 

The Chairman. This was written to Mr. George Deatherage, 1007 
West Peachtree Street, Atlanta, Ga.? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

The Chairman. You know who he is ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You know he is head of the Knights of the White 
Camellia? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

The Chairman. You have correspondence from him in which he 
shares your views and believes in setting up some form of militaristic 



government 

Mr. Campbell (interposing). I said under the Constitution, Mr. 
Dies. 

The Chairman. How do you think, under the Constitution, you 
could set up a military court in charge of the United States Federal 
Government and each State government ; how do you think that can 
be done ? 

Mr. Campbell. If you have a revolt, can't the President do that ? 

The Chairman, You didn't say anything about in the event of a 
revolt. You said, "I say to you that this thing has gone so far that 
there is only one remedy." 

Mr. Campbell. Because I honestly and sincerely believed that 
things I had been receiving were true. 

The Chairman. Do you still believe those things are true? 

Mr. Campbell. I think so, I think Mr. Gilbert is right and he is 
telling the truth. 

The Chairman. Do you think those reports are true ? 

The Chairman. I will tell you what I think. I think 

The Chairman (interposing). You can answer that, can't you? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; let me answer it this way, will you ? 

The Chairman. There is only one way to answer it, either you do 
think it is true or you don't. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3351 

Mr. Campbell. I do think it is true, but let me answer this way. 
I think it could have been proven definitely, instead of bringing this 
out publicly if the same investigation had been made to run down 
that fellow, and again, if you read my statement to Mr. (committee 
investigator) in which I asked him if this information would be run 
down quietly, and if it was true, let's blow the detail out of the water, 
and let's clean this country of subversive forces, but if it is not true, 
to quiet it up. 

The Chairman. Don't you say in another part : "There is an answer 
to all of this which I would like to discuss with you and then sit down 
with the general" — what general do you mean, General Moseley? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; that was to have General Moseley go to 
Washington and see Colonel Craig. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

But at the present time I am financially unable to spend the $40 or $50 which a 
trip to Atlanta would reqiiire. If I had it, you could expect me down there 
Friday. I have one client now with a new product which we are working 
hard on. If proper distribution can be had of this and one other that I hope 
to secure, then the revenue from those two will be sufHcient for me to follow 
through in my determination to see America return to the sound basic principles 
of constitutional government. 

vft SfC •)> 3|C *P *(! *I* 

Relative to the source of any reports : I believe I can show you enough of 
subsequent happenings to prove them correct. You and the general both have 
had enough Gr-2 experience to realize that we cannot expose sources of informa- 
tion which would mean the liquidation of the individual or individuals 
concerned. 

You are talking about these reports you received from Mr. Gilbert ? 

Mr. Campbell. Let me tell you this: Mr. Deatherage did not re- 
ceive any reports from me. He saw one or two that I had given the 
general, and he w^rote and asked me about it. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

Now, I want you to know that I believe in your sincerity and will do all I 
can to assist in outlining a program and working closely with the general. 

You mean General Moseley? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

As you have learned to know and love him, don't forget that in almost every 
State in the United States I know personally other individuals equally as loyal. 
The travesty being — one's financial lacking which prevents a close coordination 
of efforts. 

In that same letter, while we have it before us, you say : 

Please give me answers if you can to the following three questions, as it is 
extremely important, because of the source which has inquired. 

1. Is it true that Hull's wife is part or full-part Semitic 

2. What do you know of Landon's Semitic connections? 

3. What do you know of William Allen White's Semitic connection? 

You are writing to George Deatherage to supply you with that 
information, are you not? 

Mr. Campbell. I was asking him what he knew about it. Go one 
step further and go back to my testimony of Thursday, will you? 

The Chairman. You will have an opportunity to make any ex- 
planation. 

Mr. Campbell. Isn't it in order that I should answer that question 
now? 

94931— 39— vol. 5 12 



3352 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. You said that you asked those questions. 

Mr, Campbell. I did, but I told you in my experience that I had 
run across every organization in the country, and I want to know 
what they are doing, and still would, tomorrow, if I walked out of 
here and found some other organization, I will be friendly with them 
to find out what they are doing. 

The General will testify to you also that my advice to him in 
December, the 29th of December, in Indianapolis, was to join no 
organization, to operate as an individual, and that was given ad- 
visedly after years of experience and knowledge and friendship for 
the General. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Campbell, you testified Thursday, before the 
committee, I believe, that you didn't have any confidence in Mr. 
Deatherage, or his organization, and that you thought it was just a 
hang-over from the old Ku Klux Klan; is that correct? 

Mr. Campbell. That is correct. I didn't say from the Ku Klux 
Klan, but I said I thought it was an organization that had been 
discredited as being anti-Jewish and for that reason I had told the 
General not to have anything to do with any organization. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the reason you state in this letter to Deather- 
age that you believe in his sincerity and that you want to assist him 
in outlining a program ? 

Mr. Campbell. I believe Mr. Deatherage, himself, Avas sincere, but 
I couldn't see his organization. 

Mr. Healey. Did you get any funds from Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Healey. Did you refer to your financial condition in that 
letter with the hope that you might receive some funds ? 

Mr. Campbell. Absolutely not, because I did not care to go down 
there and have any conversation or interviews at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever been in Germany, Mr. Campbell? 

JVIr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. With reference to the reports which you received 
from Mr. Gilbert, you testified Thursday that the reason you thought 
these fantastic-sounding reports — and you described them as fan- 
tastic — were true, and the only basis you had for believing those re- 
ports was the fact that predictions contained in those reports subse- 
quently were proven correct by the press ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir ; and I gave as an example of that a report 
of February — or, rather, November 1937 — that is before they w^ere being 
sent out to my close friends, and subsequent reports either in April 
or May, dealing with the situation to rid the Army of the older offi- 
cers, and I did not start on that until I found out that that thing later 
came through. Then the Gellerman report likewise received before, 
and I sent those reports out to those people, and said, "This is for 
your own personal information, and your own personal guidance, 
watch the situation yourself." I did not try to influence them on© 
way or the other. 

Mr. Whitley. Wliy did you, Mr. Campbell, when these reports 
came through dated one date, making a prediction and then having 
the proof of that prediction right in the same report, the proof con- 
firmed by the press, why did you strike out the proof before you 
sent those reports out to your mailing list if it had already been con- 
firmed ? Why didn't you leave the ]Droof in there ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3353 

Mr. Campbell. Because he only sent 1 clipping, and there was 
about 40 on the mailing list. 

Mr. Whitley. He not only sent clippings in report after report, 
but he made the prediction which had allegedly been made by his in- 
formant, he sent out the prediction and under that in his own hand- 
writing he wrote in "proof," citing such and such a paper on such 
and such a date, usually several days subsequent to the date of the 
reports, stating that that "confirms this by saying the same thing." 
Now, Avhy did you strike all of those j^roofs out of the reports when 
you had them typed to send to your mailing list ? 

Mr. Campbell. Because when I talked to these fellows on the mail- 
ing list I said, "I am going to send you reports as I get them. Then 
you check the papers and the things yourself and see whether or not 
they come true." 

Mr. Whitley. But wdien they did that, based on the date of the 
report, they would think that that prediction was made and sent out 
prior to the time the event occurred, or transpired, wouldn't they? 

Mr. Campbell. In most instances they did. 

Mr. Whitley. In most instances 

Mr. Campbell (interposing). I didn't stop to check days when I 
got a report. I looked it over and sent it out. 

Mr. W^hitley. You very carefully struck out all indications of 
proof ? 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't have a sufficient amount of copies of news- 
papers to send out with those reports. 

Mr. Whitley. You didn't need to send out the clippings of these 
reports, you could send out Mr. Gilbert's statement of proof. He 
quoted the newspapers and the date on which the confirmation had 
appeared. Why did you strike that out ? 

Mr. Campbell. I just struck it out because I had told them when 
they got these reports they could see for themselves. 

Mr. Whitley. Of course, Avhen they got that, the report being 
dated one day and several days later confirmation appearing in the 
press, they would naturally assume that that report was written and 
sent out before it was confirmed in the press, they would look at it 
as a prediction? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, it wasn't a prediction, was it ? 

Mr. Campbell. I never sent any of those reports out until after 
some of them began to prove themselves true. 

Mr. Whitley. You had the proof when you got the reports, you 
didn't have to wait to get confirmation, the proof came with the 
report. 

Mr, Campbell. I said I never sent any reports out at the start 
until after they were proved. 

Mr. Whitley. After you had deleted the proof and sent out the 
report, did you later on follow up the mailing list and point out to 
them that this prediction had been confirmed? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You repeatedly pointed out by way of lending au- 
thenticity to these reports, pointed out that they did make amazing 
predictions which w^ere confirmed, didn't you? 

Mr. Campbell. I think they did. 



3354 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. That is the way you defended the reports when your 
mailing list said, "This can't be true, it is too fantastic," you said, 
"It does sound fantastic but here is the proof, this prediction has 
been confirmed." Isn't that correct? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Right in that connection, if I may interrupt, you 
wrote several letters tellino; about the way you were organizing the 
United States for the Republican Party, didn't you? 

Mr. Campbell. Not several. 

The Chairman. Didn't you say there ought to be an organization 
in every congressional district? 

Mr. Ca:mpbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. For the Republican Party, wasn't it? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And that you were going to enlist the veterans 
and various patriotic groups, didn't you say that in substance ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That was long before August or the cornfield 
rally, wasn't it? 

Mr. Campbell. It has been an ideal that I have had for a long 
time, even before I knew Mr. Gilbert. If you will go back into that, 
Mr. Dies, you will find years ago I had the same idea and it has 
always been with me. 

The Chairman. In your letter of November 1, 1938, to Mr. Felix 
McWhirter, you said : 

Dear Felix : Monday afternoon was spent with Homer. 

Who did you mean by "Homer"? 

Mr. Campbell. That was Mr. Capehart. 

The Chairman. Where does Mr. Capehart live? 

Mr. Campbell. Washington, Ind. 

The Chairman. What is his business? 

Mr. Campbell. He used to have the Capehart Automatic Phono- 
graph. 

The Chairman. Does he still run that? 

Mr. Campbell. He is running it partly with the Wurlitzer Music 
Co. now. 

The Chairman (continuing). 

One hour of it was taken out to attend the speech of Secretary Woodring, 
which the Democratic Central Committee pulled off as a rebuttal to the corn- 
field conference. It was a complete flop. There were no news-reel photographers, 
it was not broadcast, and less than 2,500 persons present. 

I covered the situation with Homer, and he is coming to Indianapolis Thurs- 
day for a discussion with you. I told him of the 15,000 posts, the 435 con- 
gressional districts, the type of organization that was to be perfected therein, 
the necessity of infrequent public appearance until next year, the State meet- 
ings, and how this program could be controlled and developed. 

Now, I did not discuss with him the cost. That is a variable factor, because 
each one of those 435 individuals must be properly contacted to develop a State 
organization and coordinate the progress that has been made to date. 

So your plan, way back there, was to organize each one of the 435 
congressional districts, is that right? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. For the Republican Party? 

Mr. Campbell. Not so much for the Republican Party, if you will 
go back into your Constitutional Protective League years ago it 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3355 

was primarily to tie in Americans in every community with an idea 
of combatting the subversive forces in this country, and then I saw 
that in this particular case, I talked to this gentleman, he wasn't 
particularly interested, but I had talked with him and that has noth- 
ing whatsoever to do with this. You are bringing a partisan political 
issue into this and that particular issue here is aside from Mr. Gil- 
bert's reports. 

The Chairman. All we want is facts ; we are not bringing in any 
political issue. You know as a matter of fact from your corre- 
spondence that you were corresponding with Mr. McWhirter? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. And you were telling him of the advisability of 
organizing each congressional district for the Republican Party ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Why do you say that I am bringing in a political 
question? 

Mr. Campbell. That has nothing to do with this. 

The Chairman. You were talking about this organization prior 
to August 1938, weren't you ? 

Mr. Campbell. I never talked about it in detail with Mr. 
McWhirter at all. 

The Chairman. But vou were writing about it? 

Mr. Thomas. Will the chairman please explain to me what the 
contact is between this matter of organizing the Republican Party 
in the United States with these subversive activities? 

Mr. Campbell. That is what I want to know. 

The Chairman. My idea is that your purpose was to disseminate 
this same sort of literature throughout the country for political 
purposes. 

Mr. Campbell. I deny that statement, because I told you a minute 
ago I wouldn't disseminate that 

The Chairman (interposing). I want to get the facts. 

Mr. Campbell. The chairman said: "Isn't it a fact that I was 
going to disseminate that information?" 

The Chairman. That is what I want to know. 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You did disseminate it to 40 people? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You did have a list of 200 people? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. Including the national committeemen and national 
committeewomen of the Republican Party? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. But you say you didn't disseminate it to any but 
the 40? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. But you did mimeograph the reports ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; because we got to the point where it was too 
much trouble for the girl to type the thing and easier to mimeo- 
graph it. 

The Chairman. You mean to say that with 40 people to send the 
reports to, that you would go to the trouble of preparing the stencil 
and mimeographing it ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir ; that is easier. 



3356 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr, Thomas. Has the committee any proof that any of the reports 
were sent to any Kepublican national committeemen X 

The Chairmen. We want to know from him whether they were. 

Mr. Thomas. He testified the other day that they weren't. 

Mr. Campbell. And I testified the same 

Mr. VooRHis (interposing). If you feh the way you have just indi- 
cated about the reports, what I can't understand is why you sent them 
to anybody. 

Mr. Campbell. I told you those were being sent for the i:)ersonal 
guidance of those people only. Suppose I know you quite well and 
we have been in the service together, and I get something in, it 
interests me, and in my conversation with you I find that you would 
be interested in the same thing. I will send them to you the same as 
you would send me things, not for dissemination. 

Mr. VooRHis. But if I were a friend of yours, Mr. Campbell, and 
you sent nie a report leading me to believe that there were all these 
terrible things about to happen, I don't think I would appreciate 
it unless you had a far better basis for these reports than what has 
been indicated. 

Mr. Campbell. If I sent those to you and tell you to keep them 
for your personal guidance 

Mr. VooRHis (interposing). I don't want to be misguided. 

Mr. Campbell. You are not being; that is for your personal infor- 
mation, isn't it? Then, if something does happen, all right. We 
were trying to do one thing, to get this information together and 
get it in such form, and we cooperated willingly, and I asked Mr. 
(committee investigator) when he came into my office to keep the 
matter quiet and run it down and ascertain whether it was correct. 

Mr. Whitley. You have been trying to keep it quiet for a number 
of years noAv, haven't you, Mr. Campbell % 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir ; I haven't disseminated that broadcast. 

Mr. Whitley. But you have sent it out to a carefully selected 
mailing list that you thought would receive it and at least keep 
it circulated only in the circles they thought might be sympathetic? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; that it was to themselves, if they had a 
very close friend that they wanted to give it to, why not? 

Mr. Healey. And the close friend could give it to another close 
friend ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir ; I don't think that would be so. 

Mr. Whitley. Reading from your letter dated July 22, 1938, ad- 
dressed to Mr. Felix McWliirter: 

Dear Felix : 

I will omit the first part of this letter and the last paragraph of the 
letter states : 

The thought occurs to me that if this gentleman whom we are discussing 
about a contract is of the right material and personally informed, it might 
be a good idea to start selling him over the country as a 1940 potential." 

Whom were you referring to there when you said — 

the thought occurs to me that if this gentleman whom we are discussing about 
a contract is of the right material and personally informed, it might be a good 
idea to start selling him over the country as a 1940 potential? 



UN-AMEHICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3357 

Mr. Campbell. You have come back to tlie Republican issue again. 

Mr. Thomas. Who did you refer to there? 

Mr. Campbell. The same gentleman as before. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Homer Capehart? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. You were going to make him a candidate for 
President ? 

Mr. Campbell. That was my own idea. 

Mr. Healey. What is the date of that letter ? 

Mr. Whitley. July 22, 1938. 

Mr. Healey, That is during the time he was engaged in this other 
work? 

Mr. Thomas. That was when he was going to organize the 435 
districts for the Republican Party? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. You state : 'Ts of tlie right material and personally 
informed." 

Mr. Campbell. As to the economic conditions in this country. The 
man is not a politician. He has never been in politics. If he was 
the right material, in other words, if the people would accept him, 
that was a conjecture on my part. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing to read) : 

However, I am primaril.v interested, at the present moment, in being able to 
conduct the activities as started, and of which you are familiar, including not 
only the convention in September, but the organization of all States as com- 
pletely as several of them now are. 

"To conduct the activities as started" — does that refer to the dis- 
semination of this information? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What does that refer to ? 

Mr. Campbell. That refers to the program that I was trying to 
develop and get in shape on this 435 congressional districts. 

Mr. Whitley. And you say "including not only the convention in 
September" — does that refer to the corn-field convention? 

Mr. Campbell. No; the American Legion convention in Los An- 
geles. 

Mr. Thomas. Did any one in the Republican Party ask you to 
organize these 435 districts? 

Mr. Campbell. Absolutely not ; that was my idea that I advanced. 

Mr. Thomas. That was your own idea ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. But Mr. McWhirter was in constant correspond- 
ence with you about it ? 

Mr. Campbell. Not a great deal. 

The Chairman. You did correspond with him about this organiza- 
tion? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you talked to him, you met him many times? 

Mr. Campbell. Not many times. 

The Chairman. Did he approve of this organization ? 

Mr. Campbell. He didn't say yes or no. 

The Chairman. He didn't approve it? 



3358 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Campbell. No. 

The Chairman. During all the time you had this conversation and 
correspondence he never did approve it? 

Mr. Campbell. Mr. McWhirter let me do the talking. 

The Chairman. And he listened to you? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. You were running two organizations, one for the 
Republican Party 

Mr. Thomas (interposing). No; he wasn't running one for the 
Republican Party, he was running this on his own. 

The Chairman. You were running one organization that you 
thought would hel]) the Republican Party, weren't you ? 

Mr. Campbell. No; I wasn't running any organization for the 
Republican Party. 

The Chairman. You were trying to start one? 

Mr, Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you were also running this organization to 
spread these reports ; is that not true ? 

Mr. Campbell. Wait a minute — I wasn't running an organization 
to help the Republican Party. 

The Chairman. I didn't say that the Republican Party asked you 
or that it was in their behalf, but you yourself had plans to set up 
an organization in 435 districts to help the Republican Party ; isn't 
that a fact? 

Mr. Campbell. I had plans myself ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I am talking about you, not anybody else. 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. Now, during the time that you were doing these 
two things, the only money you got from any source was from Mr. 
Gilbert ? 

Mr, Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. No one else contributed any money? 

Mr. Campbell. What was wrong with my having an idea like 
that, at the same time I am working on ideas on business? 

The Chairman. I am asking you a specific question; if during 
the time you were on the one hand distributing this racial prejudice 
to 40 people, as you say, on the other hand 

Mr, Campbell (interposing), I didn't say racial prejudice, I sent 
out these reports. 

]\Ir. Healey. They all referred to a people of a certain race, 
didn't they ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir ; they might have been Irishmen or French- 
men 

Mr. Healey (interposing). But they all referred to people of one 
race? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. During the time you were sending this informa- 
tion out, you were likewise conferring with people with reference 
to the establishment of an organization for the Republican Party? 

Mr. Campbell. Not with people. 

The Chairman, Not in their behalf or with their authority 

Mr, Campbell (interposing). Not with people, with one person. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3359 

The Chairmax. With Mr. McWhirter? 

Mr. Cajupbell. Yes, sir; and he gave no comment, yes or no. 

The Chairman. Did he contribute any money to you? 

Mr. Campbell. He did not. 

The Chairman. You wrote him and asked hnn for money i 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, I did; one time. 

The Chairman. You never wrote and asked him for $1,000? 

Mr. Campbell. No; I told him one time what it would cost to 
set the thing up. . 

The Chairihan. Didn't you ask him to raise that moneys 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Never asked him to raise that money? 

Mr. Campbell. In what year? 

The Chairman. Any year— did you ask Mr. McAVliirter to raise 
any money for vou? 

Mr. Campbell. If I did, it was for that particular plan, and the 
answer was "no," he did not. 
■ Mr. Thomas. You were going to organize these 435 districts with 

$1,000? 

Mr. Campbell. No; I was not. 

The Chairman. I am trying to get a specific question— during all 
the time that you were having these two organizations going you 
never got any money from any other source but Mr. Gilbert? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. And that paid for your expenses both in dis- 
seminating to 40 people the reports, and also in carrying on your 
activities to perfect this other organization, is that right? 

Mr. Campbell. I carried on no other activities except the corre- 
sponclence that I had with Mr. McWhirter. 

The Chairman. Didn't you go around over the country and talk 
to people about it? 

Mr. Campbell. I never did. 

The Chairman. Didn't you make many trips? 

Mr. Campbell. I made trips in connection with business. 

The Chairman. You had no business, did you? 

Mr. Campbell. I told you the other day wdiat I was doing. 

The Chairman. Did you get any money out of any business dur- 
ing that time? 

^Ir. Campbell. IMr. Gilbert is backing that thing. Shall I go into 
the details? 

The Chairman. I say, did you have any source of revenue during 
that period except Mr. Gilbert's money? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right, none. 

The Chairjvian. So that actually you were being paid by Mr. Gil- 
bert, or rather the money you got from Mr. Gilbert you were using 
for the dual purpose, as you say, for the purpose on the one hand of 
disseminating these reports, and number 2, to organize 435 congres- 
sional districts? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir ; not to organize 435 congressional districts. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you spend any of that money on the Republican 
Party ? 

Mr. Campbei^. I did not. 



3360 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Nobody is saying that. 

Mr. Thomas. He was going to organize them for the Republican 
Party, not for the Democratic Party. 

Mr. Campbell. There wasn't any organization done. 

Mr. Mason. May I interject this thought, that all of the testimony 
that we have listened to, last Thursday and Friday too, as found in 
the record, will just simply say that this gentleman submitted to 
Mr, McWhirter this plan of organization, but not one thing in any 
of the evidence goes to show that he was out organizing or trying to 
organize or doing any activity in that direction. 

Mr. Healey. Mr. Chairman, I submit that the evidence will speak 
for itself. 

The Chairman. Now in your letter of December 9, 1938, to Mr. 
Felix McWhirter, you say: 

I'll make you a wager, knowing the General as I do — 

you are speaking of General Moseley, are you not? 
Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman (continuing) : 

That his speech will never go over the radio out of New York City. He, too, 
has been able to confirm some of the musical scores. 

You are speaking of the reports that Mr. Gilbert sent to you, are 
you not? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

May I suggest that you tune in on Father Coughlin's speech Sunday afternoon 
at 3 o'clock, central standard time. I trust you heard it last Sunday afternoon. 

As soon as we hear from Homer, I'll be up, but if you can do anything to 
expedite this matter so that I can make that New York trip, I think it will be 
most valuable. 

Wliat was Mr. McWliirter to do to expedite the New York trip? 

Mr. Campbell. I was trying to get a survey out of Mr. Capehart 
or out of his company. However, as I explained to the committee 
the other day, in my engineering work we survey markets, and 
I had also contacted him on that basis only, and Mr. Dies, you are 
bringing a straight 

The Chairman (interposing). Just answer the questions. 

Mr. Campbell. I had contacted Mr. Capehart to try to get a con- 
tract out of his company to make a market survey. 

The Chairman. That is what you are speaking about? 

Mr, Campbell. That is what I am speaking about. 

The Chairman. All right. Now, on December 13, 1938, in your 
letter to Mr, Felix McWhirter you say : 

Dbur Felix : I am enclosing a copy of General Moseley's address to be given 
before the New York Board of Trade tomorrow noon. Please return this for 
my files. Am also enclosing copy of a letter received from George Deatherage 
your personal and confidential advice. 

At the same time I am in record of a letter from Dud — 

You mean Dudley Gilbert ? 
Mr. Campbell. That is right. 
The Chairman (continuing) : 

In which he says Mundelein's crowd is going to attack him along with Coughlin. 
He is also being attacked by G. O. Masonry. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 33(31 

What does G. O. Masonry mean ? • 

Mr. Campbell, Grand Orient Masonry. 
The Chairman (continiung) : 

As yon know, I have gone abont as long and as far as I can go on these 
matters without an intelligent, well-informed organization in back of us, capable 
of providing the sinews of war. 

There is not a hell of a lot of time left, and I have things pouring in con- 
stantly proving that No. 2 and No. 3 are being worked simultaneously. Anyone 
with the least amount of intelligence who has studied this situation knows 
very definitely the reason for Eden's visit here. And you have evidence of 
No, 2 all about you. 

I realize next month will be an important meeting in Washington, and am 
planning to go. 

What meeting was that that you were going to ? This was written 
in December, December 13, 1938, and this important meeting in 
Washington that you were talking about, what was it? 

Mr. Campbell, I didn't get to attend the meeting. 

It was in February. 

The Chairman. What was the meeting? 

Mr, Campbell. The National Association of Reserve Officers, Na- 
tional Council meeting, and I wanted to attend it, and I didn't 
get to it. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

I had hoped Homer would be in the picture by now, because this is .iust one 
of the emergencies that is confronting us. 

I have made things stretch to beat the very devil, but there finally becomes 
an elastic limit, and I do not have the 50 bucks or so that would be necessary 
to make this trip at the present time. I am asking you for your frank advice, 
and if you feel that calling Homer at Chicago would do any good, I am leaving 
that to you. 

Right now I am sitting tight on tlie lid and await your reply. 

Wliat do you mean by "sitting tight on the lid"? 

Mr. Campbell, I wasn't doing any running around the country. 

Mr, Healey, What do you mean by sinews of war? 

Mr. Campbell. Financing or carrying on a program. 

The Chairman. Noav, outside of the 40 people, these other 160 
that you had, including the list of national committeemen and 
women, you sent General Moseley's speech to them, didn't you? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you have copies of General Moseley's speeches 
before he actually delivered them? 

Mr. Campbell, The only copy I had was the copy he delivered 
before the New York Board of Trade in advance. The rest of them 
I received after the speeches were delivered. The copy which wag 
received was sent to me at the same time he sent the copy for re- 
lease to the press, that was a press release. 

The Chairman, That was the only one you had 

Mr. Campbell (interposing). Previous to the delivery of a speech. 

The Chairman. But you did read each one of the speeches you 
disseminated ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You know some of the things that were in those 
speeches, don't you? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 



3362 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. 4^or instance, you knew that in the speech of Gen- 
eral Moseley, dated December 29, 1938, there was the following para- 
graph : 

And then I listened to the rabbi on my left. He gave me a lecture on inter- 
nationalism, how we should change the instruction of our children in the 
schools. Finally, he pointed to a flag that was on the speaker's stand, and he 
said, "General, that flag to me is only a worthless piece of bunting." I said, 
"Rabbi, to me it is a wonderful symbol of all we have accomplished in the 
battles that we have fought for our liberty, to me it symbolizes both our vic- 
tories of peace and war," adding "if yon tell me that is nothing but a worthless 
piece of bunting, I will tell you that perhaps a cross is only two worthless sticks 
nailed together." He said, "No; that is a little different," but that was at the 
same speaker's table in the United States of America. 

Mr, Campbell. What is wrong with that? 

The Chairman. You were familiar with the contents of these 
speeches ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; and I wouldn't care if that had been a 
Catholic or a bishop or Methodist minister. 

Mr. Mason. Was that speech released to the press that General 
Moseley made? 

The Chairman. Delivered at Indianapolis, December 9, 1938, 
which the witness sent to this list of people that he had. 

Mr. Mason. But it was released to the press before it was mailed? 

The Chairman. Yes; I presume so. 

You arranged for General Moseley to be present and make that 
speech, didn't you? 

Mr. Campbell. I asked General Moseley to come to that meeting; 
yes. 

The Chairman. In behalf of McWhirter, didn't you ? 

Mr. Campbell. In behalf of quite a group of gentlemen in In- 
dianapolis. 

The Chairman. Didn't you have correspondence from Mr. Mc- 
Whirter in reference to that ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you were the contact man between McWhirter 
and other people in Indianapolis to secure General Moseley for this 
occasion ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. On January 9, 1939, to Mr. McWliirter you say — 
and if there is anything here that you don't recall, say so ; that is, if 
there is any statement I read that you don't recognize as your state- 
ment: 

Deae Felix : Enclosed is a copy of a short note received from our mutual 
friend in the East. 

This letter is dated January 9, 1939. Who is your "mutual friend 
in the East?" 

Mr. Campbell. Go on with that and I will tell you. 
The Chairman (continuing) : 

The trip to Lexington was well worth while, as it gave us the opiwrtunity 
of bringing the issue before the entire department. 

Don't forget the naval directory, as I have already accumulated the rest of 
the information and would like to present it to the gentleman who requested 
it next week. 

Sincerely yours, 

J. E. Campbeix. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3363 

Who was the "mutual friend in the East?" 

Mr. Campbell. Mr. Gilbert. 

The Chairman. And you wanted the naval directory? 

Mr. Campbell. I wanted the naval directory because I take the 
Army and Navy Journal, and have an Army directory. 

The Chairman. What did you want with that ? 

Mr. Campbell. I keep up with the events happening in relation to 
national defense, and I want to see what officers are going to be re- 
tired. I know a great many of them. 

The Chairman. What do you mean when you say, "as I have 
already accumulated the rest of the information" — what is that? 

Mr. Campbell. The Army and Navy journals. 

The Chairman. Was that the information you were talking about? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now on January 12, you wrote to Mr. Felix 
McWhirter, January 12, 1939, and you said ; 

Veah Pfxis : Allen Zoll's testimony before the Senate committee yesterday 
about Frankfurter was certainly a beautiful job of an agent-provocateur. 

Did we or did we not have the right dope. I say it was most fortunate that 
we were able to steer the recent speaker clear of any affiliation with that 
gentleman. 

Sent you a rather interesting music score yesterday. We are now looking for- 
ward to hearing Roose's address on national defense. 

So far, no communication, relative to equipment or anything else, has been 
received. 

Some of the speeches I sent out are beginning to bear results 

Were those General Moseley's speeches? 
Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you send out some of Father Coughlin's 
speeches, too? 

Mr. Campbell. At subsequent times I had ; yes, sir. 
The Chairman (continuing) : 

And they are wanting a mammoth meeting to be held in New Orleans within 
the next month or 6 weeks. This will also be spread to Texas and other States 
as per schedule. 

Is that right? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; I sent that copy of General Moseley's 
speech to the people on that list and some of my personal friends 
had asked if it was possible to have the General speak there. 

The Chairman. On January 24, 1939, you wrote Mr. Felix 
McWhirter : 

"Am enclosing a couple of short musical numbers" et cetera. You 
are still talking about Mr. Gilbert's reports ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

And copy of a report on which I wish you would try to get some information. 

What was that? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't recall that. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

I have written Homer. Speaking dates for Missouri have been confirmed at 
Nashville, Scranton, and Philadelphia during the coming month. The other 
trip scheduled. 

Since it is quite essential that immediate action be forthcoming, I wrote the 
above-mentioned gentleman as per the enclosed copy. 



3364 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

You wrote that letter? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

The Chairman. Now, on March 6, 1939, you wrote : 

My Dear Me. McWhirtee : I have been in communication with Mr. Camp- 
bell, and he requested me to tell you that he is on a very special mission in 
connection with reports, which is bigger from one particular angle, in which 
you too are interested, than anything to date. 

This is from your secretary, M. L. Brown. 

"In connection with reports" — what reports? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't recall what she had reference to there. 
What date was that? 

Tlie Chairman. Didn't you have in mind the reports you were 
getting from Mr. Gilbert? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; and at the same time I was going out to 
try to find out what I could myself around various places. 

The Chairman. I understand you were making these trips for the 
joint purpose? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman (reading) : 

and he requested me to tell you that he is on a very special mission in con- 
nection with reports, which is bigger from one particular angle, in which you, 
too, are interested, than anything to date. 

What is that? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't know what she had reference to there; I 
can't recall it. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

He hopes to have an opportunity to see you personally some time around the 
15th of this month in order to discuss this situation further. 

Did you see him on the 15th of the month? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. What "situation" were you going to discuss with 
him? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't recall now. 

The Chairman. Now, on March 20, 1939, you wrote Mr. Mc- 
Whirter : 

Dear Felix : The enclosed report of March 19 is very interesting. 

You are talking about the report from Mr. Gilbert, are you not ? 
Mr. Campbell. I assume so. 
The Chairman (continuing) : 

Pay particular attention to the bill that will be introduced by Congressman 
Bender. Also watch paragraph 2, note of protest to Germany, in a few days. 

I have covered the Texas and Michigan part with parties concerned. 

I hope Homer has a speedy recovery, and somehow or other we can get a 
sufficient amount of increased assistance to do this job properly. 

Any comments or suggestions you may have pertaining to it will be appre- 
ciated. 

Did he give any suggestions ? 

Mr. Campbell. In fact, those were mostly my writing and very few 
replies. 

The Chairman. He didn't write you many letters? 

Mr. Campbell. No. 

The Chairman. On March 22, 1939, you wrote : 

Dear Fettjix : Enclosed is an interesting item for your information. Thanks 
for the numbers of the bills. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3365 

Have yon any suggestions relative to Tampa? 

Do yoii tliink W. G. wonld be of any assistance on sucli a mission? 

What do you mean by "W. G." and "Tampa"? 

Mr. CAMrBEUL. Oh, I had reference there to — ^because I had had a 
report from Tampa on the Communist-inspired cigarmakers' strike, 
and I wanted to find out something about it. I don't remember who 
"W. G." was in that instance. 

The Chairman. You don't know who "W. G." was ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

I am going to write Homer direct as soon as he has recovered and find out 
how far he wants this extended. 

We are in a position to do it, and I can deliver quite a volume of influence in 
his favor if the financial department functions properly. 

That was in connection with his campaign for president ? 

Mr. Campbell. That was in connection with my trying to get the 
contract. 

The Chairman. Now, on October 3, 1938, you wrote a letter to Mr. 
Felix McAVhirter, as follows : 

Db:ar Felix : Thank you for your letter to Captain Mayo, which resulted in 
my securing a ticket to see the naval show from the decks of the Saratoga. 

Needless to say, it was the most spectacular performance of the entire week 
and made the hundreds of Legionnaires who witnessed it from the surrounding 
hillside extremely proud of our defense. 

I have driven 6,000' miles on this trip. Have uncovered some extremely inter- 
esting data in line with copy of the enclosed letter to Homer Capehart. 

What interesting data did you uncover? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't remember ; go ahead and read the letter. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

Now this is confidentially between you and me, but in that mau, we have a 
natural. Not for the national chairmanship of the Republican Party, but for a 
1940 nominee for President. When I give you a report of the hundreds of 
interviews that I have held across the country and back, and the sentiment of 
the buck private World War veteran, I think you will agree with me. 

Mr. Campbell. I know what that was now. That was very favor- 
able comment I heard in Los Angeles and various sections as I was 
I^assing through, on how Indiana had clicked through on the corn- 
field conference. 

The Chairman. And you had hundreds of interviews on this trip? 

Mr. Campbell. I talked to about 200 fellows in my own outfit, 282 
men, in the Legion, and I was with them for 2 days. I stopped at 
various places en route. 

If we want to make this a political discussion, let's go ahead. 

The Chairman. I am asking you from your own letters. 

Mr. Campbell. From my letters — I talked to hundreds of people 
out on that trip. 

The Chairman. That is the answer. I am asking you if it is a 
fact that you did talk to hundreds of people while on the 6,000-mile 
tour. (Continuing:) 

When I give you a report of the hundreds of interviews that I have held 
across the country and back, and the sentiment of the buck-private World War 
veteran, I think you will agree with me. I have a very definite plan in mind 
which could result in his nomination, which I should like to discuss with you. 

I expect to be here in the office all week and will be glad to have your reac- 
tion on the aforementioned subject. 

I am enclosing a couple of forms which are self-explanatory ■ 



3366 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

What were those forms? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't remember. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

And in the one marked "No. 1" you will see the very thinly veiled threat of 
regimentation. What is the difference between the American farmers and the 
Kulaks of Russia? 

Sincerely yours, 

J. E. Campbell. 

Mr. Campbell. I think those were a couple of forms that were mailed 
out to tobacco farmers to sign for restricted acreage. 

Tlie Chairman. Now, on August 29, 1938, in your letter to Mr. 
McWhirter, you say : 

Dear Felix : I wish to take this opportunity of thanking you for the most 
enthusiastic and inspiring Americanism meeting I have attended in a long time. 

First, I would like to compliment the general staff upon their thoroughness in 
the arranging of the details and the caliber of the speakers secured. I think a 
great deal will come from this meeting, and it was extremely valuable for me, 
because I can carry the torch that was lighted there to our contacts in the rest 
of the States. 

"Wliat contacts are you speaking about — your contacts and Mr. 
McWhirter's? 

Mr. Campbell. No; my contacts in the Avay of Republicanism. 

The Chairman. You didn't say "my contacts"; you said "our 
contacts.''^ 

Mr, Campbell. To Republicans everywdiere. 

The Chairman. Who did 3'ou mean by the "general staff"? 

Mr. Campbell. The people that arranged the meeting. I don't 
know who they were; it was an excellent meeting; you should have 
been there, the cornfield conference out in Indiana. 

Mr. Thomas. You might send that kind of a letter to anybody ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; to a dozen different people ; and it is absolutely 
irrelevant to this hearing. 

Mr. Healet. And you might send that to the list of people to 
whom you were disseminating this antiracial propaganda? 

Mr. Campbell. No. 

The Chairman. Well, this correspondence here — Mr. McWhirter 
is an official of the Republican Party in Indiana, is he not? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't know whether he is now or not ; he used to 
be an official of the Republican Party. 

The Chairman. Is he a national committeeman ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. But you said in the beginning, as I recall, that 
there wasn't anything political in your activities. Is t:hat right; do 
you still stick to that, that your activities weren't political? 

Mr.CAMPBELL. My dissemination of those reports are not political, 
but my personal right under this Republic to engage in political 
activities is my own prerogative. 

Mr. Thomas. The same as it is Mr. Gilbert's right to be a Democrat 
and vote for Roosevelt. 

The Chairman. No one is contesting that. 

Mr. Campbell, But you seem to tie it onto me as a crime because I 
have been active in the Republican Party. 

The Chairman. No one is trying to leave any such inference. 
What I am trying to find out is the extent of the activities that you 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3367 

engaged in in behalf of Mr. Gilbert and for ^Yhicll Mr. Gilbert paid 
you. I am trying to separate the two. 

Mr. Thomas. I am also of the opinion that there is an inclination 
on the part of the Chair to bring in the Republican Party and show 
that the Republican Party was mixed up in this thing. 

The ChxVirman. No one has made the slightest inference along 
that line. 

Mr. Campbell. The questions and answers are to that end. 

Mr. Thomas. That is the impression I get from the testimony. 

The Chairman. All that the Chair proposes to do is to read the 
correspondence of this man with Felix Mc^Vhirter. He sent the 
reports he got from Gilbert to Felix McWhirter. 

Mr. Thomas. But you brought in the Republican National Com- 
mittee time and time again. 

The Chairman. We didn't. 

Mr. Thomas. You know yourself that no reports were ever sent 
to them. 

The Chairman. I don't know 

Mr. Thomas (interposing). We spent a whole afternoon on Friday 
discussing this same point. 

Mr. Mason. The evidence before the committee, and all the evi- 
dence, shows that a Democrat and a Republican got together and 
made a two-man team to do a certain job, and it is that job that we 
are interested in and nothing else. 

Tlie Chairman. Now, you wrote to Felix McWhirter on February 
12, 1939, and said : 

Dear Fexix : The enclosed reports — 

Are you still referring, when you say "enclosed reports" to th« 
reports from Gilbert? 

Mr. Campbell. Read the letter; I don't recall those dates. 
The Chairman (continuing) : 

The enclosed reports convince me that a lot of effort had better be put for- 
ward toward the organization of tiddley winks clubs. 

What sort of clubs are those? 

Mr. Campbell. Darned if I know what that was, unless I had 
reference to tryhig to organize my idea in getting into each one of 
these congressional districts and doAvn to counties, to create a move- 
ment — I don't know what that reference is. 

The Chairman. You think it meant these clubs vou were going to 
organize m the 435 congressional districts? 

Mr. Campbell. Possibly. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

I am leaving on the trip tomorrow, and while it is true we secured some 
equipment with the exception of what you saw take place at Indianapolis therp 
has never been anything further forthcoming or any mention of same. 

However. I'll make you a bet that I get 200 of the Lincoln Day speeches to 
be mailed out of this office; and I am just about of the opinion that we are 
not going to waste a lot of time on talk. It is coordinated action and tb« 
carrying through of a program that counts. 

As i>er your suggestion, I have completed the list of committeemen and coin- 
mitteewomen in various sections. 

Blank of efforts can be launched in these sections, but not one damn cent 
of funds which we have for this other work is going to be spent in those sectora 
when we hardly have enough to keep going. 

Any time you want me. I can be reached through the office. 
94931 — 39 — vol. 5 13 



3368 rX-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

]Mr. Campbell. I think that answers you whether or not there has 
been any money spent on this thing. 

The Chairman. Yon were travelino; aronnd, made 6,000 miles, and 
the only money you had came from Gilbert. 

Mr. Campbell. Listen, Mr. Gilbert knew I was going to the na- 
tional convention, and while driving across I stopped at gas stations, 
when I stopped to get out in your good State of Texas I always found 
a resentment against the New Deal, and I always found that they 
liked the Republican cornfield conference speeches. If we are going 
to bring this thing in. let's bring it in right. . I had Mr. Gilbert's 
money to make the trip, but I did that the same as any other conver- 
sation. 

Mr. Healey. Were you carrying out Mr. Gilbert's objective on that 
trip ? 

Mr. Campbell. Mr. Gilbert said that I was entitled to a little trip 
and a vacation. My relatives live in California, and I wanted to go 
to the Legion meeting. 

Mr. Healey. Did you carry out his objectives in planning this 
anti-Semitic 

Mr. Campbell (interposing). No; I am not anti-Semitic. 

IVIr. Healey. Did you carry out his idea of spreading the informa- 
tion that you received from him in these confidential reports, on that 
trip ? 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't spread any information on that trip. The 
only information that has been spread 

Mr. Healey (interposing). You have not answered my question; 
you did or you didn't. 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't. 

Mr. Healey. But Gilbert financed the trip? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. Now, on February 8, 1939, in your letter to Mr. 
Felix McWhirter, you say : 

AVhilp in Nashville I had a long conference with the Americanism chairman 
of the Legion and the department commander of the Veterans of Foreign Wars. 
Say what yon please, this thing will end in a scrap. Those boys realize it and 
are going to work on the program of club organizations, outlined to you in 
Indianapolis. 

Tliat was the club organizations for the Republican Party you are 
talking about ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. sir. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

I have not been able to see the gentleman here, as he is out of the city ; and 
next week I have to go South, because our friend in Atlanta wants to see this 
movement pushed in the fourth. 

You are talking about General Moseley? 

]\Ir. Campbell. Yes. 

When I say that, I told him it was time to organize in every 
county in the United States to bring back American ideas, and Gen- 
eral Moseley said, "I think tliat is a very good plan." Tliat could 
mean anything. 

Tlie Chairman. Now, in your letter to Mr. McAVlrirter of February 
6, 1939, you said : 

The enclosed report is very important — 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3369 

That is one of Mr. Gilbert's reports, isn't it ? 
Mr. Campbell. I don't know. 
The Chairman (continuing) : 

and I am sending you two copies, also C. E. C.'s speech. 

Mr. Campbell. C. E. C. or C. E. G. ? 

The Chairman. C. E. C— who is that ? 

Mv. Campbell. Probably a speech of Father Coughlin's. 

The Chairman. Charles E. Coiighlin. 

In line with a conversation of Saturday evening, I would like to suggest 
that you approach H. C. — 

That is Homer Capehart ? 

Mr. Caisipbell. No, sir ; go ahead with the letter. I might confuse 
that, because sometimes I have asked to have information sent to 
me by Homer Chaillaux, who is also referred to as "H. C." 

The Chairman. Well, Homer Chaillaux repudiated your entire 
movement and efforts, didn't he? 

He wrote a letter and said the only place to put these reports was 
in the scrap basket. 

Mv. Campbell. I didn't see that. 

The Chairman (reading) : 

In line with a conversation of Saturday evening, I would like to suggest 
that you approach H. C. about writing a series of articles, from which I would 
be able, of course, to merely take excerpts and send with the material which is 
now being mailed out weekly to the key contacts over the country. 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't get it. 
The Chairman (continuing) : 

This will supplement the work being done by you through the national 
committeemen and increase interest when he appears in the local sectors. 

Mr. Campbell. That is on our organization of clubs again, and 
the speeches that I have sent of General Moseley to the various com- 
mittee members and the speeches that I have written myself. 

The Chairman. In your letter of December 19, 1938, to Mr. George 
Deatherage, St. Albans, W. Va., you say — I am reading the parts 
that are pertinent. If anybody wants any of the other parts, I will 
read them. You say: 

D?:ae George : I have very carefully noted your letter of the 14th and am 
heartily in accord with your aims and purposes, except one point and that is — 
the meeting that you proposed in Chicago. 

Were you expressing — or rather you were expressing very hearty 
accord with Mr. Deatherage's program and his aims and purposes, 
were ^^ou not? 

Mr. Campbell. Did I say it ? 

The Chairman. You said it there. 

Mr. Campbell. Except what ? 

The Chairman. Except the meeting in Chicago. 

Mr. Campbell. That is right — and why? 

The Chairman. But the aims and purposes of Mr. Deatherage you 
endorse ? 

Mr. Campbell. In substance; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Although didn't you have a letter from Mr. Death- 
erage — let's see, on December 14, 1938, when you wrote this letter 



3370 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

you had received, you had a letter from George Deatherage, did you 
not ? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; those letters crossed in the mail apparently. 

The Chairman. Let's see. 

Mr. Campbell. What date is that? 

The Chairman. Here is a letter dated December 14, 1938, that Mr. 
Deatherage wrote you, and you answered his letter on December 19, 
1938. So they couldn't have crossed in the mails, because you 
acknowledge receipt of his letter. 

Mr. Campbell. That is all right. 

The Chairman. You had received Mr. Deatherage's letter and you 
endorsed his aims and purposes. 

Now, Mr. Deatherage says: 

Dear Jim: I have 3^our letter of the 13th, and am sorry that you cannot find 
it possible to get here, and hope that on the General's return the financial end 
will be taken care of in such way that there will be something for your ex- 
penses. Rest assured that I will impress upon him that you should get here 
as soon as possible — and before we make the final plans for organization. 

Please rest assured that our time is coming, and within the next 12 months, 
those that have borne the heart-breaking load of carrying on the fight will come 
into their own. That sacrifice will not have been in vain — when the crisis 
reaches its climax — and the Nation knows the facts. You may rest assured 
that the General will take care' of that as you know him. He has already 
expressed to me that this must be the case, for he is now^ realizing a little of 
what a number of people have gone through and have sacrificed for the cause. 

When I arrived I foimd him with the idea that all these outfits that we 
know so well, were okay and good Americans. I hated to disillusion him, but 
it had to be done. Fellows like Major Pease, who is now in Florida ; Gwiner, 
of Atlanta ; Mrs. Fry, and others who cannot be trusted, were active in attempt- 
ing to get liim swung into line. When he saw for himself what Gwiner here in 
Atlanta was trying to do — he began to wake up. 

You are right that no man close to him must come with other than clean 
hands — and that he must be ready to lay down his life if that is required 
without hesitation. It is our job to see to it that this fact is turned into real- 
ity — for one slip on his part, or ours, and we would be sunk. 

The realization of this has caused the general to take it a little easy for a 
start — until he got his feet thoroughly under him. He thought, as I did at the 
start, that this gi"eat America would rise up in their wrath and wipe this bunch 
off the face of rhe earth when they knew part of the truth. Alas, he finds that 
there are skunks every place and that the enemy procedure is that of the ori- 
ental — sly, cunning, and crooked as hell. 

However, he will decide on his return just what procedure he will follow, and 
the plan now as he sees it is to start a little G. H. Q. in Atlanta. 

That is general headquarters, is it not? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

The Chairman (continuing) : 

is to start a little G. H. Q. in Atlanta, where we will map the enemy^ — our friends, 
consolidate with us those we know are right and prepare the plans for the cam- 
paign. This — realizing that tlie situation is not yet where we can enlist the 
mass support of reaction. Many people are starting to react, but the main idea 
now is to build the framework of the campaign — this army — and secure and 
qualify the leadership. The mass reaction will follow the leader when they are 
hurt bad enough. Now, we must have State and county leaders all over the Na- 
tion that we know that without a shadow of a doubt are men that will stick under 
any kind of fire. 

That is a job in itself, and the thing in which you can be a great deal of help. 

Of course, the general must be careful in dealing with men of the R. O. A. or 
any outfit that is still in active service, for if he did the accusation could be made 
at once that he was building up a Fascist army. We must deal with persons in 
a civilian status. I would much prefer — and I think that you will agree — that 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3371 

the leadership should be officers who have seen active service, for, generally 
speaking, they are men who hold decent positions in society, are more apt to be 
true, and are trained in the work that we must eventually do. 

I feel sure that if these men, many of whom you and I know, were appraised 
of the situation they would resign their commissions and enlist with us for this 
American-Jewish war, for that is all that it is — a war fought with money and 
propaganda instead of rifles. Of course, that business of resigning cannot be 
suggested by the general, but it might be done through other sources which you 
have contact. 

You will note from the general's speech, a copy of which was sent you, that 
the plan is to do this job peacefully and by force if that becomes necessary. 

Xow, you endorse tliese aims and purposes? 

Mr, Campbell. Mr. Dies, I told you in that meeting the other day — 
and I will repeat — that that evidence — when I was national chairman 
I went into every organization in the country. I liad not seen Mr. 
Deatherage for 2 years. He saw one of these reports from the general ; 
he started the conversation with me, and I wanted to know what his 
organization was doing and why. When you get the general on the 
stand he will verify that I told the general — I wrote and asked those 
questions. I would write to anyone. 

The Chairman. Here is a man advocating force 

Mr, Campbell (interposing). The damned German bund is doing 
the same thing, too ; but I am opposed to it ; but if I could go in to get 
some information I would get it. 

The Chairman. But he wrote you on December 14 outlining these 
plans and schemes that he had, and the advocacy of force if necessary, 
and you write him back on December 19 and say : 

I have very carefully noted your letter of the 14th, and am heartily in ac- 
cord with your aims and purposes, except one point, and that is — the meeting 
that you propose in Chicago. 

Mr. Campbell. That is right, because I wanted to know everj^thing 
he had in mind. 

The Chairman, Then you weren't sincere? 

Mr, Campbell, My advice to the General was not to join any or- 
ganization, nor has he joined any organization. 

The Chairman, Then you didn't mean anything or everything, 
rather, that yoti said in this letter? 

Mr, Campbell, I did not. Have you done any intelligence work? 

The Chairman (reading) : 

I am in accord with such a meeting, but I do not think the General should be 
brought into such a meeting. 

I think I read that before, 

Mr, Campbell. You read that the other day. 

The Chairman, You read the aims and purposes outlined by Mr. 
Deatherage ? 

Mr, Campbell, As far as the letter is concerned, I am not affili- 
ated with that 

Mr, VooRHis (interposing). Let's be sure we understand. You do 
not endorse the aims and purposes of Mr, Deatherage. is that right? 

Mr, Campbell. I say I do not endorse the aims and purposes of 
any organization to overthrow this Government, We have got an 
Army and we have got a Government, 

Mr, VooRHis. I am talking about Mr, Deatherage's organization. 

Mr, Campbell. That is right. 



3372 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. His purpose was to have an army and if necessary 
use force, and in one of your letters you say that you are in favor of 
establishing military court over the Republic, and over the 48 States. 
What is the difference between your plan and his? 

Mr. Campbell. Between a private army and the armed forces of 
the United States. 

The Chairman. The only difference between you and Deatherage 
is that you are in favor of using our Army to set up a military 
court 

Mr. Campbell (interposing). If Communists rise up in any sector 
of this country, wouldn't you advocate using our Army? 

The Chairman. You didn't say that, you said that the time had 
arrived when this military court should be set up. What is the dif- 
ference between the views expressed in your letter and the views 
expressed by Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Campbell. That can be done legally under the Constitution. 

The Chairman. Do you think you could set up a military court 
under the Constitution? 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't say I was going to. If you had been in 
Detroit at that sit-down strike, or in the Mahoning Valley, you would 
advocate the setting up of a military court. 

Mr. Healet. And so you advocate that? 

Mr. Campbell. No 

Mr. Healey (interposing). You did, over your own signature. 

Mr. Campbell. When any situation prevents the Army 

Mr. Healey (interposing). You didn't say that, you said under 
the present circumstances. 

Mr. Campbell. I say a military court is the answer. 

The Chairman. Now, you and General Moseley were working on 
a product, were you not, that you were going to sell to the Army ? 

Mr. Campbell. We were working on an auramin compound for the 
treatment of venereal disease. 

Tlie Chairman. And the general was to sell it to the Army? 

Mr. Campbell. He was carrying on experimental work with Dr. 
Abercrombie, the public-health surgeon at Atlanta, and I had been 
doing some work in various parts of the country, establishing cures, 
and the purpose we had in mind was to develop a kit so that it 
would be issued to troops, because it is a superior product for any 
gonorrhea treatment than they have today and that has taken a 
long time to develop, but has proven itself to he very efficient. 

The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Howard B. Rand, of Haverhill, 
Mass. ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Where did you meet Mr. Rand? 

Mr. Campbell. About 4 years ago. 

The Chairman. Does he have an organization of some kind? 

Mr. Campbell. No; I got some of his literature when I was na- 
tional chairman on subversive activities, and maintained contact 
with him by mail from time to time. 

The Chairman. What was the name of his organization? 

Mr. Campbell. The Anglo-Saxons. 

The Chairman. The Anglo-Saxons? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3373 

The Chairmax, Tlie Anolo- Saxons of America? 

Mr, Campbell. I think that his organization was the Angio-Saxon 
Federation. 

The Chairman. Did yon endorse his organization? 

Mr. Campbell. Xo, sir; I tliinli: some of the editorials he Avrote 
were splendid, and I think some of them were very much off-color, 
but I had made contact with Mr. Rand 4 years ago. It is some semi- 
religious organization, but there wasn't a great deal of attention 
paid to it. 

The Chairman. You are familiar with his publication. Destiny? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't take them regularly, I buy one occasionally, 
and once in a while he sends me one when there is an editorial he 
marks that he wants me to read. 

The Chairman. It is definitely anti-Semitic, is it not? 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't consider that anti-Semitic, at least they 
don't consider themselves so in their literature. 

That is just another one of the things that I looked over. 

The Chairman. You don't think this would be anti-Semitic? 
"Christian leaders must either separate themselves from the evil in- 
fluences of the enemies of Christ or be overcome by them. The pro- 
motion of Jewish-Christian relations on the basis of present-day 
trends is unfair to the Jews themselves, who will never be brought 
to a saving knowledge of Christ by such unscriptural methods. The 
answer to a vital question is hanging in the balance — will Protestant- 
ism continue to stand fast in the liberty of Christ, or will it become 
increasingly entangled in the bondage of modern Judaism?" 

Mr. Campbell. I don't go that far into the religious issue. 

The Chairman. You wrote Mr. Rand — here is your correspond- 
ence — ^you wrote him a number of letters, did you not, you had quite 
a correspondence with him, did you not ? 

Mr. Campbell. I had correspondence with him over a period of 4 
years. 

The Chairman. You wrote him, from instance, on January 9, 1939 : 

Dear Mb. Rand : Write direct to Fatlier Couglilin requesting his book wliich 
includes tlie last nine speeches made and a photostatic reproduction of portions 
of the White Paper. 

I plan on being in New Yorlv sometime after the 22d of this month, probably 
after the 25th ; and we should be able to meet at that time. I am also going 
down to Atlanta. Ga.. the first part of February. If your plans are chansed 
so that it is impossible for us to meet in New York we might meet in Knox- 
ville, Tenn. 

Many things hnxe happened which make me anxious to see you, because time 
is growing short. 

Mr. Campbell. He had written me several letters trying to sell me 
on that philosophy, and had been trying to have a meeting with me 
over a period of a year and a half. 

The Chairman. And he wrote you on January 4, 1939, thanking 
you for a copy of Coughlin's speech and also one by General Moseley ? 

Yes ; I would be very glad to have Coughlin's speech each week, as I am 
unable to secure them here. Do let me know when you are planning to be 
East so that I can, if possible, make my plans so that we can meet. There are 
many interesting things I want to discuss with you. 

Mr. Campbell. He had been writing to me for a year or so to have 
a conference. 



3374 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. So when you speak of "our organization'' through- 
out this correspondence, you mean the organization in the 435 con- 
gressional districts that you were setting up for political purposes? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I am trying to get the distinction. 

Mr. Campbell. Now the organization I am referring to was my 
idea of setting up a political organization. The contacts that I have 
for the dissemination of those letters were only to those forty-some- 
odd people. 

The Chairman. I understand. I am trying to get it clearly dis- 
tinguished. When you say "our organization" in these various letters, 
you are referring to this plan to organize the 435 congressional 
districts for political purposes? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. And you didn't have in mind the other plan that 
you speak of with reference to these reports that are being dis- 
seminated ? 

Mr. Campbeli.. No, sir; those reports were not to be included in 
that whatsoever. 

The Chairman. Those reports are highly inflammatory. 

Mr. Campbell. That is why I didn't send them out. 

The Chairman. They are repeating conversations advocating the 
overthrow of the Government by force ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. They are repeating conversations in which promi- 
nent people are alleged to be plotting the destruction and overthrow 
of the Government and the establishment of a soviet government? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. And isn't that the main reason why you didn't send 
them out to the Republican national committeemen and Republican 
national committeewomen, because you knew they wouldn't be in- 
terested in that, in anything like that ? 

Mr. Campbell. Absolutely ; and for the simple reason that I wasn't 
interested in bringing any issue like that into a political organization. 

Mr. Healet. But you did send them out to a certain limited list? 

Mr. Campbell. But not in the Republican organization. 

Mr. Healet. But you sent them out ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. And you sent them out mostly down South? 

Mr. Campbell. South and Southwest. 

Mr. Thomas. Probably everybody that got those, practically, was 
a Democrat? [Laughter.] 

Mr. Healey. You Avere trying to spread dissention among Demo- 
cratic ranks, Averen't you? 

The Chairaian. Let's see if Ave can understand each other. 

Through all this correspondence, when you speak of "our organiza- 
tion," you have absolutely no reference to the reports that Gilbert 
sent you ? 

Mr. Caimpbell. The reports that Gilbert sent me are only confined 
to that small group of which Gilbert and I talked among ourselves as 
our own organization. 

The Chairman. So when you said "our organization" you didn't 
mean at all these reports that came in from Gilbert ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3375 

Mr. Campbell. Only in that very small group. 

The Chairman. A limited sense? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What yon really had in mind in a broader sense 
was an organization in the 435 congressional districts? 

Mr. Campbell. If we could put it across. 

The Chairman. Which was purely political? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And had nothing to do with this other work which 
you were doing? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That is what you had in mind when you wrote to 
Mr. Hamilton on February 6, 1939, and said : 

My De.\k Mr. Hamilton : Last summer, at Washington, Ind., when we dis- 
cussed the current situation, I told you some of the things that would happen as 
a result of our organization, 

Mr. Campbell. I am talking about the Republican Party. 

The Chairman. You said when you used the w^ords "our organi- 
zation" you meant the organization you were setting up in 435 
counties ? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. And that is what you are referring to when you 
wrote to Mr. Hamilton? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; I didn't mean that I had talked to Mr. 
Hamilton, and when I said that I meant directly the Republican 
Party, because if you will finish reading the letter, I told him 
why Michigan would go Republican. 

The Chairman. No ; not in this letter, this was the one you wrote 
him on February 6, 1939. 

My Dear Mr. Hamilton : Last summer at Washington, Ind., when we dis- 
cussed the current situation, I told you some of the things that would happen 
as a result of our organization. And they did. I still secure a very interesting 
volume of infoi'uiation on subversive activities. 

While in Indianapolis this past week I had a talk with our mutual friend, 
Mr. McWhirter, and he suggested that I increase my mailing list, which is 
being done to a considerable extent. 

I would like to add to my list the national committeemen and committee- 
women from each State, and would appreciate your sending the names and 
addresses of these people. 

I will probably be in Washington at the chamber of commerce meeting in 
April with Mr. McWhirter, and I shall look forward to seeing you at that 
time. 

So that you now say that when you said "our organization" you 
meatUt the Republican Party rather than this other organization you 
were perfecting in 435 congressional districts? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr. Healey. You said, "I would like to add to my list" — now what 
list did you refer to? 

Mr. Campbell. The speeches of General Moseley that I was send- 
ing out, but not of any confidential reports and none of those 
reports have been sent out to that list. 

Mr. Healet. You said that you were receiving some confidential 
reports of subversive activities, didn't you, in that letter? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Healey. And didn't you want to add to your list that you had 
established for the dissemination of those reports, the names that 



3376 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

you referred to in this letter, the list that you referred to in this 
letter ? 

Mr. Campbell. I did not, sir; I had told Mr. Hamilton, when I 
met him 

Mr. Thomas (interposino;). Where? 

Mr. Campbell, I met him in the midst of the cornfield conference, 
and had about a 10- or 15 -minute conversation with him. 

Mr. Thomas. And how many people were there there? 

Mr. Campbell. Fifteen thousand, according to reports. 

Mr. Thomas. And you went up to Mr, Hamilton, he didn't seek 
you out? 

Mr. Campbell. No. 

Mr. Thomas. Was that the first time Mr, Hamilton had ever met 
you? 

Mr. Campbell. That is the only time Mr. Hamilton and I had 
ever met, and I have never seen him since. 

Mr. Thomas. And he had never heard of you up to that time? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. When I was introduced to him they told 
him I had been the national chairman of the Subversive Activities 
Committee, and I told him that the C. I. O. activities in the Mahon- 
ing Valley and the State of Michigan, the published pictures of 
Jerry O'Connell up in Montana were such that the people would 
vote' against that, would repudiate the New Deal policy in Ohio and 
Michigan, and would personally go against Jerry O'Connell. 

Mr. Thomas. Wliich they did ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; and that is what I had reference to in this 
letter to bring it back to his attention so that he would recall me. I 
was one of some four or five thousand peo]:>le that he had met. 

Mr. Thomas. He ]3rolxibly met over 4,000 people there ? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't know ; he was shaking hands with everybody. 

Mr. Healey. The source of information that you referred to in this 
letter, the source of the information concerning subversive activities, 
M^as the Gilbert reports? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir ; because I get booklets and reports on C. I. O. 
activities mailed in to me constantly. 

Mr. Healey. But you were getting that information at the time that 
you wrote this letter? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes; but I wasn't giving it to John Hamilton. 

Mr. Healey. I didn't infer tliat. I said the source you referred to 
was information you were getting concerning subversive activities 
from the Gilbert source ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; because I had that supplemented with re- 
ports from all over the country, from the national headquarters of the 
Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, Americanism reports from all 
over the country. 

The Chairman. Let's see — so in using the words "our organiza- 
tion," you had three senses in which you used it. In one sense it was 
the 40 members to whom you were disseminating the Gilbert reports. 

No. 2 was the organization in 435 congressional districts. 

No. 3 was the Republican Party. 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. In using the words "our organization" in the letter 
to Mr. Hamilton, j-ou were referring to the Rei^ublican Party? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3377 

Mr. Campbell. Naturally, to Mr. Hamilton, because I am a mem- 
ber of that organization. 

The Chairman. Now, you only sent these Gilbert reports to the 40 
people ? 

Mr. Campbell. I think there are some forty-odd names on that list. 

The Chairman. Do you know definitely? 

Mr. Campbell. No, 1 do not ; there may not even be 40. 

The Chairman. But this is the list, is it not? 

Mr. Campbell. If that is the list I identified for you the other day; 
yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Is a man by the name of Bert Presson. of Little 
Rock, Ark., named on there? Did you ever hear of him? 

Mr. Campbell. Bert Presson came into the picture later, and his 
name may not be on that master list. 

Tlie Chairman. You did send him these Gilbert reports? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; because he is the adjutant of the Legion 
down there, and I met him at a later date when I was down there. 

The Chairman. His name is not on this list. 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Who else did you send these reports to who is not 
named on this list of 40 ? 

Mr. Campbell. My files will give you the entire list. You have the 
files, you have the copies of all my correspondence. 

The Chairman. Does it give Bert Bresson's name anywhere in your 
list, your files? 

Mr. Campbell. If there was a letter sent to him there is a copy. 

The Chairman. I mean a report. 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir: a copy of the letter sent with the report is 
in the files, because I haven't anything to hide ; my files w^ere there, 
they were all seized. 

The Chairman. His name is not on the list, so there is one you 
sent these reports to whose name is not on the list. 

Mr. Campbell. He is on one of those lists. 

The Chairman. Is INIr. McWhirter's name on the list of the 40 ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. They tell me that is right. 

Mr. Campbell. Whoever those reports are sent to, the girl has it 
in that file somewhere. 

The Chairman. All right, you have got this list from Mr. Hamil- 
ton, you couldn't get it in the almanac because they don't have the 
addresses of the national committeemen and the national committee- 
women ? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't know ; I thought it was easier to write direct 
and get it. 

The Chairman. You told Mr. Hamilton that you were going to use 
this to mail out some sort of literature, didn't you ? 

Mr. Campbell. I wanted to mail out some speeches. 

The Chairman. Information on subversive activities? 

Mr. Campbell. I thought the speech of the general was a very 
good one. 

The Chairman. Do you think that constitutes information on sub- 
versive activities, the speech of General Moseley? 

Mr. Campbell. I think it does. 



3378 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Who else's speech were you going to send out? 

Mr. Campbell. The one I made myself, not on subversive activities, 
but on Americanism. 

The Chairman. What other information on subversive activities 
outside of General Moseley's speeches were you going to mail? 

Mr. Campbell. That is all. 

The Chairman. Did you have that in mind when you wrote to Mr. 
Hamilton on February 13, 1939, and said: 

Thank you very much for the list of national committeemen and committee- 
women. 

I believe the information we send will be most valuable to them, as the first 
thing I intend to send out will be a copy of the speech General Moseley made 
last week in Nashville, Tenn., showing how the present administration was not 
only responsible for subversive activities in this country, but through their 
vacillating foreign policy was throwing us closer and closer to the brink of war. 

Why do you use the words "first thing I intend" to do? 

Mr. Campbell. Because I intended to send out some more of his 
speeches. 

The Chairman. But you didn't intend to send anything to this list 
except General Moseley's speeches? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. And that is what you meant when you told him 
you had the information on subversive activities that you wanted to 
mail out? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir ; because I would not send to the Republican 
Party any of those reports. 

The Chairman. Did he ever write you after that and tell you not 
to send out General Moseley's speeches? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't think I ever had any further correspond- 
ence with him. 

The Chairman. How many speeches did you actually send out to 
that Hst? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't know whether it was two or three I sent 
out. 

The Chairman. Two or three? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes. 

The Chairman. How many of Father Coughlin's speeches did you 
send out? 

Mr. Campbell. In some of them there was a copy of his speech 
enclosed. I got the Brooklyn Tablet and sent some of those speeches 
around to some of those people that were on that general list, and 
also some of those speeches and the Forum out of the Tablet, which 
would bring up controversial issues, to some of the people on that 
list. But I sent most of those speeches, Mr. Dies, into the South be- 
cause they weren't able to get it over the radio. 

The Chairman. Only 15 out of the 40 you have on this confidential 
list are in the South, the rest are from other sections. 

]Mr. Campbell. They can't get it in the West or South, either one. 

The Chairman. Get what? 

Mr. Campbell. His speeches on the radio. 

The Chairman. You keep talking about the South. Of these 40 
names, only 15 reside in the South and the rest in other sections? 
Mr. Campbell. Yes. 
The Chairman. Why do you keep emphasizing the South? 



I 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3379 

Mr. Campbell. I don't emphasize the South. 

The Chairman. Did you read the Nashville speech that you wrote 
to Mr. Hamilton you were sending out first? 

Mr. Campbell. I listened to him deliver the speech. 

The Chairman. Do you know what was in it? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You endorsed the speech? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; I don't believe that speech got printed, 
but I know it was a very good speech. 

The Chairman. Now, in your letter of November 21, connecting 
that up — well, right at that point, Mr. McWliirter was your inter- 
mediary between Mr. Hamilton; I mean, he is the man that intro- 
duced you and Mr. Hamilton ; is he not ? 

Mr. Campbell. He introduced perhaps hundreds from the State 
of Indiana that was around there that clay. 

The Chairman. You say to Mr. Hamilton, in your letter of No- 
vember 21 : 

I trust we may have the pleasure of meeting again, and I shall appreciate 
hearing from you at your conAenienee. I contemplate making another business 
trip east in January, which \\ill take me into Washington, Philadelphia, New 
York, and the New England States. It may be possible for us to get together 
at that time. 

What were you going into all those States for? 

Mr. Campbell. At that time we thought we had this product far 
enough along that General Moseley was going to reach me in Wash- 
ington, was going to meet me here, and take it to General Reynolds, 
of the Medical Corps, and General Parran, in the Public Health 
Service. 

The Chairman. Now, in your letter of December 12, 1938, to Mr. 
Howard B. Rand, you say : 

May I suggest that you tune in at the address of Father Coughlin, Sunday 
afternoon at 2 p. m. eastern standard time. There are some things in his belief 
with which I cannot agree, but I can most heartily subscribe to the manner in 
which he is presenting his evidence against the subversive Jew who would break 
down Christianity and Americanism. 

I have planned on leaving here shortly after the first of the year for a trip 
east, and will advise my dates. In the meantime, if you know definitely when 
you are going to be in Chicago, let me know, and will either arrange to see 
each other there or in Massachusetts. 

Did you ever meet him? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. • 

The Chairman. Wltat were you making this trip into Massachu- 
setts for ? 

Mr. Campbell. That was the same trip that I contemplated 

The Chairman (interposing). Now, Mr. Campbell, when you got 
these reports from Mr. Gilbert, did you ever, yourself, make any 
independent investigation to determine whether there was any truth 
in the reports ? 

Mr. Campbell. A personal investigation I did not make. I had 
know^n Mr. Gilbert a long time and before I had sent any of them 
out I had seen those things happen. 

The Chairman. You had the proof — when the report reached you, 
with the report was the newspaper clipping verifying it. 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir ; not in all cases, only in the past few months 
has he been sending those newspaper reports. If you will go back. 



3380 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

sir, for a period of 2 years, there weren't any newspaper clippings. 

The Chairman. But where he didn't send the newspaper clip- 
pings, he did have a statement to the effect that proof of it could be 
found in certain newspapers? 

Mr. Campbell. That was only in the last few months that he 
started putting that in. Previous to that time they came just as a 
straight report. 

The Chairman. Now, this list of 40 that you sent these reports to — 
did you hear Mr. Gilbert's testimony this morning? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir ; I was told to come back at 1 : 30. 

The Chairman. Were these 40 men members of your organization ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir ; they are not. 

The Chairman. They were freinds of yours? 

Mr. Campbell. People that I knew and friends of mine that I had 
met and talked to, personally. 

The Chairman. And you marked on each envelope, "For your per- 
sonal use only," is that right ; or did you mark that on there i 

Mr. Campbell. On each what? 

The Chairman. On the envelope sending out the report to these 
people. 

Mr. Campbell. I told them that when I sent it to them, and I sent 
the information as confidential. 

The Chairman. You didn't have in mind that they would show it 
to all their friends? 

Mr. Campbell. I did not; no, sir. 

The Chairman. You didn't think that would be the natural effect 
of it? 

Mr. Campbell. If I gave you something and said, "This is confi- 
dential," would you go around and show your personal files to every- 
body? 

The Chairman. You didn't think that that would be the natural 
consequence, that when they got these reports purporting to show 
these prominent people plotting a revolution to overthrow the Gov- 
ernment, that they would ever say anyhing to anybody else about 
them ? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir; because I w^oukln't do that, myself, I don't 
think you would or any other gentleman. 

The Chairman. You felt confident that everybody would keep it 
confidential, and even in Mr. Cooke's case, that wasn't in your mind 
when you sent it to him ? 

Mr. Campbell. No. 

The Chairman. Wliat was the purpose of this? 

Mr. Campbell. I had this thought in mind : If this thing began 
to break, they could verify the facts when I came down to Washing- 
ton that they had known for some period of time through those re- 
ports that things were happening, if I got the information that I 
felt in my own mind that I should come down to proper military 
autliorities with it. 

Mr. VooRHis. May I interject briefly? 

Mr. Campbell. Would you say, or do you still believe there is such 
a plot as this; do you still believe that? 

Mr. Campbell. I have no question in my mind to doubt Mr. Gil- 
bert. I do believe that there is a definite Communist plot in this 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3381 

country. I don't know personally when it is going to break. I know 
that with the same intensive effort that this connnittee put onto that 
thing, as they are capable of doing, they can uncover it for them- 
selves. 

Mr. VooRHis. This committee is intending to go at this time in the 
broadest way it can, I will say that much, but here is the next ques- 
tion I want to ask you : 

Do you believe that if there were such a plot as has been alleged 
in these reports that it would have a better chance or a worse chance 
to effect its purposes after these hearings than it had before? 

Mr. Campbell. I think it would have a worse chance after these 
hearings. 

Mr. VooRHis. That is right. If you believed that, then, and if 
you honestly believed the material in these reports, and you were 
trying to rendei- a patriotic service, why in the world didn't you tell 
somebody about it? 

Mr. Campbell. If you will follow up all the information that is 
available, you will run these fellows out. 

Mr. VooRHis. I don't think the thing holds water at all. 

The Chairman. Mr. Campbell, let's keep this record absolutely 
straight. 

In fairness to both the Legion and Veterans of Foreign Wars, they 
w^ere never part or parcel of anything you were doing in connection 
with this? As a matter of fact, they don't approve of this kind of 
stuff? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chaillaux, repudiated the 
whole thing? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. The fact that you happened to be in the Veterans 
of Foreign Wars, and are now chairman of the Kentucky Americani- 
zation committee, that doesn't mean by any sense that the Veterans of 
Foreign Wars subscribe to your views? 

Mr. Campbell. Nor the American Legion, which I belong to. 

The Chairman. Or the Officers' Reserve? 

Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

The Chairman. And you at no time ever reported your informa- 
tion, or were these reports carried to Mr. McWliirter? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir; because he is a friend of mine. 

The Chairman. What did Mr. McWhirter tell you when he began 
to read these reports; did he approve of j^our actions in sending this 
out? 

Mr. Campbell. He didn't make enough comment to tell one way or 
the other. 

The Chairman. He never did contribute any money, you say? 

Mr. Campbell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. When you wrote him for some funds, you wrote 
several people for funds, didn't you? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. None of them ever contributed ? 

Mr. Campbell. No contributions were ever received in any specific 
case. 



3382 UN-AMERICAM PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. You were very anxious to keep this whole matter 
secret, weren't you? 

Mr. Campbell. I didn't want to broadcast those reports because I 
wanted to find out and finally get them verified. 

The Chairman. When you got reports, for instance, such as the 
one 

Mr. Campbell (interposing). I didn't send out all these things. 

The Chairman. You remember the report that contains a great 
deal of vile suggestion about the President and his wife ; you remem- 
ber that, don't you, dated Tuesday, April 18? 

Mr. Campbell. Not without reacting it. 

The Chairman. Look at that report and look at these questions. 

Mr. Campbell. Those things I overlooked. 

The Chairman. Did you send those questions out to your com- 
mittee? 

Mr. Campbell. No. 

The Chairman. Why didn't you ? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, some of these reports are not strictly of a 
Communist nature, and some of them were prying into the Presi- 
dent's life. 

The Chairman, Why didn't you send that out, for instance? 

Mr. Campbell. Well, about that time I probably had too many 
reports to be sent out, anyway. 

The Chairman. That w^as the only reason ? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; some of those I didn't send out because I didn't 
think they were important enough. 

The Chairman. Why didn't you send this one out ? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't think it is important enough. 

Mr. VooRHis. Isn't the reason you didn't send it out because you 
didn't believe it? 

Mr. Campbell. That is a contro\'ersial issue, with the D. A. R. 

The Chairman. This goes further and has a good deal of other 
matter in it. 

Mv. Campbell. If you send that out you are going to bring that in. 

Mr. Thomas. Weren't you being paid by Mr. Gilbert to send out 
his reports ? 

Mr. Campbell. Not every report. 

Mr. Thomas. Wasn't there an understanding between you and Mr. 
Gilbert you were going to send out these things ? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir. 

JNIr. Thomas. And he was paying you for that, wasn't he? 

Mr. Campbell. Yes ; and sometimes we got so sewed up we couldn't 
get some of those reports out. 

Mr. Thomas. That is the only reason you didn't get them out, 
because you got sewed up? 

Mr. Campbell. I only had one girl, 

]Mr. VooRHis. If you felt about a report that came in that you 
couldn't send the report out 

Mr. Campbell (interposing). That is the 19th of April? 

Mr, Whiteley, April 18, 

Mr, Campbell. On April 21 I broke this arm and for 10 days 
wasn't even around the office. It is still broken in three places. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3383 

The Chairman. How do you know your secretary didn't mail it 

out? 

Mr. Campbell. She didn't mail anything unless I told her. 

Mr. VooEHis. Was it on account of your broken arm that you 
didn't send it out? 

I^Ir. Camlbell. I wasn't in the office and I didn't pay any atten- 
tion to wliat was happening. 

Mr. VooRHis. Why wasn't this sent out, did you have any objec- 
tion to sendino- it out? 

Mt. Campbell. I didn't read the whole thing. 

Mr. VooRHis. Yon didn't even read it? 

Mr. Campbell. If it was a D. A. K. controversial issue, I wouldn't 
send it out. If the whole thing pertained to Communist activities I 
would have sent it out. 

ISIr. VooRHis. You don't even read these reports? 

]Mr. Campbell. That is right. 

Mr, VooRHis. You don't know what is in it? 

Mr. Campbell. I don't remember that report in detail at all. 

Mr. VooRiiis. You couldn't have valued these reports very much 
if yon didn't read them carefully. 

]Mr. Campbell. There were about 10 days that I didn't go in there. 

Mr. Whitley. Did j'ou ever have any doubts at all, Mr. Campbell, 
as to Mr. Gilbert's alleged source of these reports? 

Mr. Campbell. No ; I believe in Mr. Gilbert, and I thought it was 
the exact truth on that thing, and the reason I didn't want to broad- 
cast it was that it was his request that we keep this thing confidential 
until we could get enough information to take it to the proper 
authorities, which it was his intention to do, 

JNlr. Whitley. You never attached any significance at all to the 
fact that the reports were always dated anywhere from 2 or 3 days 
to a v.eek before the envelopes transmitting them to you were post- 
marked ? 

Mr. Campbell. He explained that to me, Mv. Whitley, that he got 
these reports sometimes 2 or 3 days after they happened, from this 
informant, and by the time he wrote and got it on through to me the 
thing had happened, and that is the way it was explained to me. 

Mr, Whitley. And you didn't attach any significance to the fact 
that a lot of these important predictions which tended to lend an air 
of authenticity to the report, had the proof with the same report? 

Mr. Campbell. Most of the reports that I received from him, I 
received before the events happened. Some of those happened, as 
he explained it to be, because reports had been delayed in getting to 
him. 

Mr. AVhitley, As a matter of fact, Mr. Campbell, I have been all 
over those reports that were in your office, and I haven't found any 
instance yet where any startling predictions were made and then 
confirmed weeks later in the press. All the predictions that I have 
seen that were made, and which have been pointed to, have the jn-oof 
right in the letter that transmitted the prediction. So it didn't 
occur to you that someone might be presenting these predictions just 
to try to build up and make the whole fantastic report look and 
sound authentic? 

94931— 30— vol. 5 14 



3384 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Campbell. No. sir; it didn't. 
Mr. VooRHis. Does it now, Mr. Campbell? 
Mr. Campbell. I would like to re-read all those things. 
The Chairman. We have Mr. Hamilton here, and we would like to 
hear from him at this time. 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN HAMILTON, CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN 

NATIONAL COMMITTEE 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Hamilton, will you state your official position 
with the Republican Party? 

Mr. Hamilton. I am the chairman of the Republican National 
Committee. 

Mr. Chairman, may I at this point ask if I may make a statement 
which will only take about 3 minutes and might expedite the ex- 
amination ? 

The Chairman. I think that is perfectly all right. 

Mr. Hamilton. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am 
happy to have an opportunity to appear before this committee for 
any questions which its members may care to ask regarding the 
testimony given last week by Mr. James Erwin Campbell. Indeed, 
I am pleased if I can be of any assistance to this committee in its task 
of investigating anti-American activities, because I believe it is doing 
a ver}^ necessary and patriotic work in exposing Fascist, Nazi, Com- 
munist, and all other subversive influences which may be at work 
in this country. No man's position should relieve him of submitting 
himself to this committee if he has been in any way mentioned in its 
proceedings. 

I presume this committee would like to have the facts regarding 
an exchange of correspondence between the Republican national 
headquarters and Mr. Campbell, which, according to the press re- 
ports, figured in the conmiittee's hearings last week. I have found 
in the files of the Republican national headquarters the corre- 
spondence between Mr. Campbell and myself which has been pub- 
lished. But I have no recollection whatever of Mr. Campbell, nor 
have I any knowledge of him except that which has appeared in the 
newspapers in the last 4 or 5 days. 

Mr. Campbell's first letter — dated November 21, 1938 — was sent to 
me with a covering letter from Mr. Felix McWhirter, of Indianapolis, 
whom I have known for several years as a finance officer of the 
Republican organization in Indiana. In the Campbell letter, written 
on stationery of Business Engineering Associates, Owensboro, Ky., 
he referred to meeting me at the so-called cornfield Republican rally, 
held near Washington, Ind., on August 27, last year. He recounted a 
conversation which he said we had at that time. Also he asked for 
an appointment with me in January in Washington, D. C. Mr. 
Campbell may very well have met me on that occasion, but I have 
no recollection of talking with him. Approximately 25,000 people 
attended this meeting from half a dozen States, and I daresay I 
talked with several hundred. 



un-a:^ierican propaganda activities 3385 

To his first letter, I replied on November 30 that I would be glad 
to see him in Washington in January if a convenient date could 
be arranged. He acknowledged this letter under date of December 
6 advising me tliat he and Mv. McWhirter would be in Washington 
in the eai'ly part of January. There is no record in our files of a 
reply to this letter. Our headquarters received a third letter from 
Mr. Campbell under date of February 6, this year, in which he 
stated he was increasing his mailing list and asked for a list of the 
membership of the Republican national committee, adding that he 
expected to be in Washington in April and would like to see me. 

Under date of February 9, accompanied by a routine letter pre- 
pared by one of my secretaries, the list was forwarded to him. At 
this point may I say that our headquarters, as a matter of course, 
furnishes a list of the national conmiittee membership to anyone 
requesting it. You know, of course, that this list is public property 
as it appears in several publications, including the World Almanac. 

The last letter we received from Mr. Campbell, dated February 13, 
acknowledged the receipt of the list of the committee membership. 
For the first time, in this letter, Mr. Campbell informed us he in- 
tended to send to those on the list a speech made by General Moseley 
which he said showed — 

How the present administration was not only responsible for subversive activi- 
ties in this country, but through their vacillating foreign policy were throwing us 
closer and closer to the brink of war. 

He again said he expected to see me in April. No reply was made 
to this letter and there has been no further correspondence between 
us. In spite of Mr. Campbell's repeatedly expressed desire to call on 
me I know I have not seen him since this correspondence commenced. 
I also wish to add that I liave not communicated with Mr. Campbell 
directly or indirectly in any manner except as revealed in this corre- 
spondence. 

Publication of this correspondence prior to my appearance here has 
resulted in the inference that in some way I, or the Republican na- 
tional headquarters, have been sympathetic with anti-Semitic activi- 
ties. No man who has a position such as mine can permit that 
challenge to go unanswered because it not only reflects on me but 
also on the great political party which I represent. 

I have no knowledge whatever of any activities of Mr. Campbell 
or any others who have been named before this committee except 
what has been recently reported in the press. There was nothing in 
Mr. Campbell's letters to me which indicated in any way that he was 
engaged in any un-American activities. If there had been I certainly 
would not have engaged in any correspondence whatsoever with him. 

All my life any form of intolerance has been hateful to me. My 
first campaigns in public life were marked by my opposition to the 
Ku Klux Klan. I have always opposed any movement to penalize 
any man because of his race or because of the manner in which he 
chooses to worship God. 

Only last summer, shortly before the "cornfield" rally mentioned 
in the Campbell letter, I publicly denounced and urged the defeat 
of a candidate for the Republican nomination for the United States 



3386 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Senate in Kansas who had attacked Catholics, Jews, and Negroes. 
On that occasion, in an open letter to the Republicans of my State, 
I said: 

We have all been shocked by the manifestations of intolerance growing up 
in the world elsewhere and we should be more than shocked at its appearance 
on our very doorstep and theiefore doubly vigilant. Should I have the oppor- 
tunity of voting on August 2. as a Republican acting in the interest of my 
party and my country, I certainly would not vote for anyone who has dedicated 
himself to a course of intolerance. 

Again, about the very time this correspondence with Mr. Camp- 
bell commenced, I addressed a telegram to more than 40 leading 
Reptiblicans throtighout the country suggesting that they issue state- 
ments to the press "condemning the horrifying and barbaric perse- 
cution of minorities in Nazi Germany, especially within the last 
Aveek." 

"As Americans," I stated in this telegram, "we cannot but be 
shocked by reports from Germany. I consider this an individual 
and not a political matter and this telegram is sent with that thought 
in mind." 

I cite these two instances only because they occurred during thes, 
same period as the correspondence now before the committee. I offer 
them because I believe that deeds speak louder than baseless in- 
nuendoes and because I believe that a man's intentions can best be 
judged by his acts. 

I trust that nothing I have said will be construed as a criticism 
of this committee, whose work, as I have already indicated, deserves 
the wholehearted support of every good American. Everything that 
is worth while in this country whether viewed from a material, cul- 
tural, or spiritual viewpoint is dependent on the preservation of our 
American institutions. Intolerance, to my mind, is as great an enemy 
of those institutions as is connnunism, fascism, nazi-ism, or any other 
alien "ism." 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Hamilton, how long have you known Mr, Felix 
McWhirter? 

Mr. Hamilton. I probably met him in the campaign in 1936. I 
had no national connections prior to the time I came to the committee 
in the spring of 1935, and I think probably that was the first time 
I met Mr. McWhirter. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you had many contacts with him since that 
time ? 

Mr. Hamilton. Many. 

Mr. Whitley. Does he hold any official position in the Republican 
Party? 

Mr. Hamilton. He is the treasurer of the Republican State com- 
mittee in Indiana, and as such the finance officer of the national com- 
mittee there. 

Mr. Whitley. Was there any preliminary correspondence or con- 
versation between you and Mr. McWhirter with reference to Mr. 
Campbell? 

Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Wliat was the nature of that ? 

Mr. Hamilton. The letter which the committee had used before, 
that is, the first letter from Mr. Campbell, dated November 21, 1 think 
that is the first letter. It is, according to our files. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3387 

Mr. Whitley. That is right. 

Mr. Hamilton. It did not come directly to me at Washinoton. It 
was forwarded to me by Mr. McWliirter with this accompanying letter 
dated November 22, 1938 : 

Mr. John D. Hamilton, 

National Chairman, the Republican Committee, 

Washington, D. C. 

Deae .John : My good, tried, and proven friend, .Jim Campbell, sent this letter 
addresed to you to me for forwarding. This I am pleased to do. 

At a time which is mutually convenient to you and Jim, I would like for 
you to set aside an hour and a half. He is dependable. His information is 
precise. You will want it, and we can use it for our country's sake. 

I regret the delay in your receiving my wire which went out promptly. By 
tracing it seems that the Postal had been advised by your office to deliver it at 
the Shoreham. Am knee deep in jitney collections for the recount. There is 
wide public interest and much detail. 

I would like to tell the committee that that telegram had nothing 
whatsoever to do with this. 

On the 18th of November I sent a telegram to all of the finance 
officers of the Republican Party, asking them to come to Washington 
for a meeting, and Mr. McWhirter's telegram to me was dated 
November 16, saying he couldn't come. 

Then, as a second telegram, on the 19th, I said I had not received 
any reply, and then his second telegram, saying the other had been 
delayed — and that is the reference in the letter. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know. ]Mr. Hamilton, what Mr. McWhirter 
was referring to there in his letter concerning Mr. Campbell when 
he stated that he had a lot of vahuible information or exact in- 
formation ? 

Mr. Hamilton. No; I did not. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Mr. IMcWhirter ever discuss with you the nature 
of the information that Mr. Campbell had been furnishing him for 
some time^ 

Mr. Hamilton. No; he did not. 

Mr. Whitley. In report form or otherwise ? 

Mr. Hamilton. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You made reference, Mr. Hamilton, to the fact that 
the list or the names of the national committeemen and national 
commit tee women could be obtained from the almanac. 

Mr. Hamilton, That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe that is correct but not their street ad- 
dresses? 

]\Ir. Hamilton. No; but that is the reason we adopted that policy. 
The reason we adopted that policy was that the almanac is the 1938 
almanac — the 1939 almanac may not even be issued so far as I know, 
and there have been several deaths and resignations on the commit- 
tee, and confusion has arisen, so we have recently sent out mimeo- 
graphed lists. 

Mr, Whitley. And you do not recall whether the actual introduc- 
tion to Mr. Campbell, which was arranged in Indiana, whether that 
was through Mr. McA^Hiirter or not ? 

ISIr. Hamilton. The introduction in Indiana? 

]\Ir. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Hamilton. I don't remember ever seeing Mr. Campbell luitil 
today, and I have no recollection of the matters which he mentions 
in that letter. 



3388 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. AVhiti.ey. Did you know, Mr. Hamilton, or have you ever- 
heard, that General Moseley's speeches are anti-Semitic? 

Mr. Hamilton. I have never heard that, and I don't remember 
ever havino; seen the one to which he refers. I did see a statement 
in the press that General Moseley ^jave the day he retired as a 
brigadier general, but I have never seen any of his other speeches 
that I remember of, and I don't even remember the contents of that ; 
I just remember the incident. 

Mr. Whitley. And in this letter which Mr. Campbell addressed 
to you on February 6, in which he states as follows : 

I still have a very interesting volume of information on subversive activities. 

Did you have any idea what type of subversive activities, or what, 
he was referring to there? 

Mr. Hamilton. No; if I told you that we had a special file in which, 
when we get nut letters, we put them there, and I didn't even answer 
his last letter. That was answered as a matter of form by one of 
my secretaries. If you will look at the dictation mark on there you 
will see that it isn't mine. 

Mr. Thomas. What was the date of the last letter you refer to? 

JNIr. Hamilton. That was the one in Avhich I sent him the list. 

Mr. Whitley. February 9. 1939, I believe. 

Mr. Hamilton. That is right. 

The Chair:man. You don't mean to convey the impression that you 
thought Mr. Campbell was a nut? 

Mr. Hamilton. No; I meant subjects. There is a lot of hysteria 
on both sides of this matter, and we get all types of mail — I am not 
talking about him as an individual. 

The Chairman. But you had no reason to believe he was in that 
category ? 

Mr. Hamilton. I don't know anything about him. 

The Chairman. I mean a man who would be introduced to you by 
an im]:)ortant man like Mr. McWhirter. 

Mr. Hamilton. That is undoubtedly the reason that the letters got 
the attention that they got. 

Mr. Healey. Did you characterize this as a "nut" letter? 

Mr. Hamilton. No; but when he asked me if I thought there was 
any im]:)ortance, Mr. Congressman, in having a volume of subversive 
mail, I have got volumes of it. 

Mr. Thomas. Would that convey to your mind that this might be 
some sort of 

Mr. Hamilton. W^hen I f^et letters from somebody who begins to 
talk about subversive activities, I will leave that up to your com- 
mittee. I meant no reflection upon Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Thomas. It began to dawn on you that perhaps this man 
might be in the category that you termed a nut ? 

Mr. Ha:milton. I didn't mean that at all ; I was talking about the 
subject matter of subversive activities. 

Mr. Whitley. And in this last letter, I believe, which Mr. Camp- 
bell wrote you, dated February 13, in which he advised that the 
first thing he intended to send out to that mailing list which you had 
sent to him, would be a copy of the speech of General Moseley, made 
the last week in Nashville — was any effort made, ]Mr. Hamilton, to 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3389 

determine the nature of that speech or tlie nature of General Moseley's 
speeches ? 

Mr. Hamilton. No ; but there would have been nothing that could 
have been done at the time. The speech had been made and the list 
was in his hands. He said in his letter that the speech had already 
been mailed. 

Mr. Whitley. "Was any effort made to stop him from sending out 
any further, or any more of General Moseley's speeches to that list? 

Mr. Hamilton. There has been no correspondence with him, and I 
have never seen the man to the best of my knowledge until today, 
unless it was in Washington, Ind. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe ]\fr. Campbell testified that he had sent 
out two or three speeches to that list, that is just a recollection; I 
believe he indicated in his testimony that he had sent out more than 
one? 

]\Ir. Hamilton. Maybe; I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know, Mr. Hamilton, anything concerning 
the nature of the material which is disseminated by one William 
Dudley Pelley, head of the Silver Shirts, in Asheville, N. C.? 

Mr. Hamilton. No, sir ; I understand that there is an anti-Semitic 
magazine published tliere, but I don't know ; I heard that in the 
train coming from Columbus, the night before last. 

JVIr. Whitley. It had never been brought to your attention that 
Mr. Pelley, of the Silver Shirts, was also disseminating or mailing 
out copies of General Moseley's speeches? 

Mr. Hamilton. No, sir. 

INfr. Whitley. In pamphlet form, which he uses for his literature? 

Mr. Hamilton. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Hamilton, did you ever, to your knowledge, get 
a similar request from Mr. Pelley or from Mr. Kuhn? 

Mr. Hamilton. Not that I know about, and I am sure that there 
wasn't. 

Mr. Whitley. For a mailing list of this type that was requested 
by Mr. Campbell? 

Mr. Hamilton. No; our files have been searched since this matter 
started for anything that might bear upon it, and there is nothing 
further that I can find that would bear upon it in one way or another. 

Mr. Thomas. If you had gotten a similar request from Mr. Kuhn, 
what do you think your attitude would have been ? 

Mr. Hamilton. Is Mr. Kuhn head of the bund ? 

Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hamilton. Oh, I think Mr. Kuhn is too well known. If the 
thing came to my personal attention in the last 3 or 4 months, since 
the meeting particularly, I think I would have advised against that. 

Mr. Healey. Against sending him the list? 

Mr. Hamilton. Yes; but I don't think that would have stopped 
him from getting it. A year and a half ago I might not even have 
known about it. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Hamilton, in your statement you say, "I publicly- 
denounced and urged the defeat of a candidate for the Republican 
nomination for the United States Senate in Kansas who had attacked 
Catholics, Jews, and Negroes." 

Who was that ? 



3390 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Hamilton. Mr. Winrod. 

Mr. Thomas. After you sent out that letter opposing Winrod, were 
you ever accused of being pro- Jewish? 

Mr. Hamilton. I have got a very fine history of being pro- or 
anti-everything. Since that, this circular [indicating], was broadcast 
all over the United States, "Why does the Republican National Com- 
mittee refuse to clean house?" and it suggested that myself, Mr. Walt- 
man, Mr. Frank, and Mr. Hard should be relieved of their duties 
for being pro-Jewish. 

On September 10, the Industrial Control Reports, which is put 
out by a man named True, put out four pages suggesting that I be 
relieved from my position as chairman of the national committee 
because I was pro-Jewish. 

The Chairman. Mr. Hamilton, you don't recall meeting Mr. Camp- 
bell? 

Mr. Hamilton. No; I do not. I would have no hesitancy in saying 
so if I did. 

The Chairman. You, of course, wouldn't be in a position to say 
you didn't? 

Mr. Hamilton. No; I certainl}' don't say that. 

The Chairman. In fact, the correspondence would indicate that 
you did talk to Mr. Campbell because in your letter of November 30, 
1938, you said to Mr. Campbell : 

Mr. MeWhirter has forwarded your letter to me and I was glad to hear from 
you. Since you are planning to be in Washington in Januai-y I would suggest 
that you drop me a note as to just when you were coming and we can arrange 
a mutually convenient date. 

You don't recall whether you arranged that date, and whether you 
saw him on that occasion? 

IVIr. Hamilton. Oh, I know very definitely it was never arranged 
and I have never seen him since the date of this correspondence. 

The Chairman. But you are sure that that letter of November 30, 
that you never did see him in accordance with that date? 

IMr. Hamilton. No; I never did. 

The Chairman. Then why, in the letter of February 9, 1939, which 
was subsequent, did you say as follows : 

I shall be looking forward to having another chat with you when the chamber 
of commerce meets in April. 

Doesn't that indicate that you had already had one chat? 

IVIr. Hamilton. Yes; Mr. Campbell had said that he had met us or 
had met me at the Corn Field Conference, and when a man writes 
in to our headquarters and says he has met me, I am never going to 
deny it, I will tell you that. 

The Chairman. So that you have no recollection, no independent 
recollection, of talking to him? 

Mr. Hamilton. No; I haven't, and I didn't remember his face 
when I saw him here today. 

The Chairman. But you may have talked to him? 

Mr. Hamilton. Very probably I did; I don't want to dispute his 
word. 

The Chairman. But when he said that he had additional informa- 
tion on subversive activities, and you mailed him this list, you must 



rX-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3391 

have liad in mind making available the list to him so he could send 
information on subversive activities to the committeemen and com- 
mittee women ? 

Mv. Hamilton. That is very possible ; I think it is the duty of any- 
American, if subversive activity is established to have that known. 
That is what this committee is doing. 

The Chairman. But you wouldn't make your list available to 
anyone, would you? 

Mr. Hamilton. I have already answered that. The list is avail- 
able to anyone. 

The CiiAiR]MAN. But vou said you wouldn't make it available to 
Fritz Kuhn? 

]Mr. Hamilton. No; if I knew anybody was going to use it like 
that, no, but the word "subversive" does not imply anti-Semitic. 

The Chairman. You didn't know at the time you received the last 
letter when he said that the "first thing" he was sending out was 
General Moseley's speech, you didn't know the contents of General 
Moseley's speech? 

Mr. Hamilton. No; and the chairman was kind enough to send 
me a copy of the transcript of the proceedings on Thursday, and I 
would like to refer to a portion of the transcript of the proceedings 
the other day, in which the chairman of the committee asked this 
question of Mr. Campbell : 

Then when he wrote back and told yon he was sending: yon the list, he did 
that in order to furnish you witli an opi;urtunity to disseminate General 
Moseley's speech? 

That is right. 

His information to me that he was sending out General Moseley's 
speech was after he had gotten the list. 

Mr. Healet. But he did refer to the fact that the purpose for 
asking for this list was to send out to these committee inembers 
some information he had of subversive activities? 

Mr. Hamilton. No; I am sorry that that casts an inference. He 
said he would like to report to me on the subversive matters that he 
had in mind, and the other is in a distinct paragraph. 

]Mr. Healey. But in the same letter he requested the list? 

Mr. Hamilton. That is right. 

Mr. Healey. And inferentially you might come to the conclusion 
that he wanted it for that purpose? 

Mr. Hamilton. I see no objection in giving a list to a man who said 
that he was going to circulate or circularize on subversive influence. 

Mr. Healey. You have previously stated that when you get letters 
referring to that subject that immediately you are rather suspicious of 
the writer of that letter? 

Mr. Hamilton. I am suspicious of their enthusiasm. 

Mr. Healey. Did that happen in this case, were you somewhat 
suspicious ? 

Mr. Hamilton. I am afraid that you didn't get the first of the 
testimony. That letter was not written by me to start with, although 
I am not waiving responsibilit}^ for it. 

Mr. Healey. But you furnished him the list subsequently, there 
is no question about that? 

Mr. Hamilton. That is riffht. 



3392 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Healet. And he later informed you that the "first thing" he 
was going to do was to disseminate to this list General Moseley's 
speech. 

Mr. Hamilton. A speech which had already been made. 

Mr. Healey. And no attempt was made by your organization to 
check that speech or its contents? 

Mr. Hamilton. I don't know today what was in that speech. 

Mr. Healey. And no attempt was made to prevent him from dis- 
seminating the contents of that speech or other matters of a similar 
nature to the list of Republican committeemen and committee women? 

Mr. Hamilton. That is quite right, except I say I must qualify 
by saying that I don't know today that there was anything in that 
speech. 

There is one other statement I would like to make, Mr. Chairman. 
Since I liave come into the room, overhearing as best I could the 
testimony of Mr. Campbell, he made the statement as to being some 
type of agent for the Republican National Committee or the Re- 
publican organization. I also saw on the teletype, just before I came 
to the office, a statement made this morning by some witness to the 
effect that a man by the name of John B. Snow was forming a 
Nation-wide chain of Republican clubs. The question of represen- 
tation of the national committee has become so serious that on 
March 25 every official member of the party received this com- 
munication [indicating]. It went to the members of the national 
committee, to the State chairmen, to the State vice chaii-men, to the 
treasurers of the State committees, and the chairmen of the State 
finance committees. 

Since the election of 1938 there have been recurring instances where repre- 
sentation has been made that certain individuals are representing the national 
■committee in some capacity or other. In case of doubt, such representation 
should not be accepted by any member of the party, neither in the organiza- 
tion or financial field, without verification from the national headquarters. 

At this time it should be sufficient to state that national headquarters has 
no field men or women representin.g it generally in any phase of the com- 
mittee's work. When such appointments are made, the organization as a 
whole will be informed, and where any such agents are assigned to particular 
fields, those who are concerned with that field of activity, or who are the 
members of the organization in the specific area affected, will be notified 
immediately. 

Neither of these gentlemen has been on the pay roll of the national 
committee or represented us directly or indirectly. 

The Chairman. The committee will recess imtil tomorrow morning 
at 10 o'clock. 

The subpenas of all witnesses who have not been heard, will remain 
in force, and the witnesses will be here tomorrow morning at 10 
o'clock. 

( Whereupon, at 5 : 30 p. m.. May 22, 1939, the hearing was ad- 
journed to May 23, 1939, at 10 a. m.) 



INYESTICtATION of UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



TUESDAY, MAY 23, 1939 

House of Representatives, 
Special Committee to Investigate 

Un-American Activities, 

Washington^ D. C . 

The committee met at 10 a. m., in room 359, Old House Office 
IBuilding-, Congressman Martin Dies (cliairman) presiding. 

Present: Congressmen Dies (chairman), J. Parnell Thomas, Jerry 
Voorhis, Arthur D. Healey, and John J. Dempsey. 

Also present : Rhea Wliitley, counsel to the committee. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

The first witness will be Mr. McWhirter. Mr. Mc^Vliirter, will 
you please come around and have a seat? 

Mr. Thomas. I suggest in the conduct of this hearing that Mr. 
Wliitley complete his examination before we ask questions — is that all 
right { 

The Chairman. We will have an understanding that if there are 
any questions any member of the committee want to ask they will 
first address the chair before interrupting the witness. We will have 
that understanding. 

TESTIMONY OF FELIX M. McWHIRTER. TREASUEEE, INDIANA 
EEPUBLICAN STATE COMMITTEE 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

Mr. WiiiiXEY. Mr. McWhirter, what is vour residence address? 

Mr. JNIcWhirter. Indianapolis. 

Mr. Whitley. "Wliat is your business or profession? 

Mr. McWhirter. Banking. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your full name? 

Mr. McWhirter. Felix M. McWhirter. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your position in the banking business? Are 
you an official of any banking institution? 

Mr. McWhirter. President of a bank. 

Mr. Whitley. What bank? 

Mr. McWhirter. People's Bank. 

Mr. Whitley. Of Indianapolis? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have any official connection with the Re- 
publican Party? 

Mr. McWhirter. I do. 

3393 



3394 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Wliat is that connection? 

Mr. MoWhirter. Treasurer of the Indiana State Central Com- 
mittee. 

Mr. Whitley. That is your present connection? 

Mr. McWhirter. I so testified. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you had any past connection, official connec- 
tion, with the party? 

Mr. McWhirter. Been a member for about 34 years. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you connected with the United States Navy, as 
a Reserve officer ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I am. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your commission? 

Mr. McWhirter. Lieutenant commander. 

Mr. Whitley. How long have you had that commission, Mr. 
McWhirter? 

Mr. McWhirter. About 15 years. 

Mr. Whitley. How long have you know Mr. James Campbell ? 

Mr. McWhirter. About 9 years. 

Mr. Whitley. How long have you know Mr. Dudley P. Gilbert? 

Mr. IMcWhirter. I have seen him three times prior to yesterday. 
The first time was 2 years ago this coming June. 

Mr. Whitley. What have been your relations with Mr. Campbell 
over a period of years — been purely social? — been any business rela- 
tion? 

Mr. McWhirter. No business relation. 

Mr. Whitley. No business relation. Has he ever borrowed or at- 
tempted to borrow any money from you ? 

Mr. McWhirter. He has not. 

Mr. Whitley. In connection with his activities. Do you know 
what business Mr. Campbell has been engaged in in the last 2 or 3 
years? 

Mr. McWhirter. Business engineering. 

]Mr. Whitley. Business engineering? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know that he was also acting as a medium 
through Avhich Mr. Gilbert was distributing, disseminating certain 
reports? 

Mr. McWhirter. I knew nothing of the medium or the distribu- 
tion. 

Mr. Whitley. You didn't know that Mr. Campbell was distribut- 
ing reports regarding alleged subversive activities? 

Mr. McWhirter. I didn't get your question. 

Mr. Whitley. You didn't know that Mr. Campbell was distribut- 
ing reports 

Mr. McWhirter. I knew I was receiving reports from him. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, you knew he was distributing them, then. 

Mr. McWhirter. I knew that I was receiving reports. 

Mr. Whitley. How did you receive those reports? 

Mr. McWhirter. Through the mail. 

Mr. Whitley. Not verbally? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever discuss those reports, the contents of 
them, with Mr. Campbell ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3395 

Mr. Whitley. The reports you received allegedly were based on 
information furnished bv a confidential informant in a New York 
club? 

Mr. MoWhirter. I have knowledge since I have been reading 
the papers the last week and since I sat here yesterday. 

Mr. Whitley. You didn't know until these hearings started what 
the source of those reports was supposed to be? 

Mr. MoWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever question Mr. Campbell about those 
reports or the information in them? 

Mr. INIcAVhirter. I assumed they were rather fantastic, and so 
indicated. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you keep those reports he sent you, or did you 
send them back to him, Mr. McWhirter? 

Mr. McWhirter. I did not send them back. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not send them back. The reports in ques- 
tion had to do with the — they were called ''music scores,'' were identi- 
fied as "music scores," and referred to conversations in a club in New 
York City? 

Mr. McWhirter. Those were the reports. 

Mr. Whitley. Those are the reports. Your connection with Mr. 
Campbell, I would judge from your testimony, was rather passing, 
and probably insofar as Mr. Campbell's activities are concerned in 
spreading these reports you didn't know anything about that except 
just that you received a report occasionally? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever worked with Mr. Campbell along 
political lines or with reference to political activities ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You have not. Did Mr. Campbell at your instance 
arrange for General Moseley to come to Indianapolis to deliver an 
address some time ago ? 

Mr. ]\IcWhirter. No, sir. I wrote Mr. Campbell and suggested 
that he join in an invitation which I understood that General Moseley 
had had extended to him. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Campbell did assist you in arranging for Gen- 
eral Moseley to come, though, did he not ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I assume so. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. McWhirter, reading from copy of letter dated 
July 22, 1938, addressed to you by Mr. Campbell : "Dear Felix, I am 
enclosing part of a musical score received today. You can pass this 
on to whomever you see fit." Did you ever see fit to pass on those 
reports to anyone? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. The last paragraph of that same letter, Mr. McWhir- 
ter: "The thought occurs to me that if this gentleman whom we are 
discussing" — and whom he does not identify in the letter — "about a 
contract is of the right material and personally informed, it might be 
a good idea to start sending him over the country as a 1940 potential." 
To whom does that statement refer, Mr. McWhirter? 

Mr. McWhirter. I assmne it refers to the guest at the Cornfield 
Conference held last August near Washington, Ind. — host, I mean ; I 
beg your pardon. 

Mr. Whitley. That was Mr. whom? 



3396 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. McWhirter. Mr. Capehart. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Homer Capehart? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Another letter from Mr. Campbell to you, dated 
October 7: "Dear Felix, I am enclosing a couple of reports recently 
received, and also an extract of a case on "which we are working here 
in Kentucky." His correspondence would indicate that he sent those 
reports rather regularly, Mr. McWhirter — is that correct? 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, there was no periodical regularity to them. 

Mr. Whitley. Letter of November 1, 1938, addresed to you by 
Mr. Campbell, which was read in evidence yesterday, goes into con- 
siderable detail with reference to plans for promoting an organization 
to sponsor Mr. Capehart — apparently to sponsor him along political 
lines. Was that letter and the discussion in there of plans a result 
of any conversation or arrangement that you and Mr. Campbell had? 

Mr. McWhirter. Certainly not. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you agree with those plans, or did you indicate 
any agreement with them? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Letter of December 9, 1938, addressed to you by Mr. 
Campbell : "Enclosing copy of a letter from Homer and a music 
score" — referring to one of the reports — "copy of a letter just received 
from General Moseley. You can see by this why I was so anxious 
for Homer to get with us so that I could be in New York next week. 
I'll make you a wager, knowing the general as I do, that his speech 
will never go over the radio out of New York City. He, too, has been 
able to confirm some of the musical scores" — he, too, has been able to 
confirm those scores — does that indicate you had been able to confirm 
some? 

Mr. McWhirter. I am sure I couldn't interpret the meaning of any 
of the others' letters. 

The Chairman. Well, 3'ou did get these letters over a long period of 
time, didn't you, from Mr. Campbell? 

Mr. McWhirter. I have had probably 150 letters. 

The Chairman. And received 150 reports, didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter. I wouldn't think so ; no, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, how many did you receive? 

Mr. McWhirter. I do not know. 

The Chairman. Did you receive as many as a hundred ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I wouldn't think so. 

The Chairman. What did you do with the reports when you re- 
ceived them? 

Mr. McWhirter. I have a 6-foot wastebasket. 

The Chairman. Did you ever show tliem to any of your friends? 

Mr. McAVhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you ever write Mr. Campbell a letter of disap- 
proval of tlie mailing out of these reports? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you ever tell him personally he oughtn't to 
doit? 1 . ^ 

Mr. McWhirter. I testified, sir, tliat I did not know that lie was 
distributing reports. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3397 

The Chairman. Well, insofar as you were concerned did yon make 
any effort to manifest to him your disapproval of these things ? 

Mr, McWhirter. I believe I testified that I expressed to him the 
thought that they seemed fantastic to me. 

The Chairman. They seemed fantastic to you? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. When did you tell him that? 

Mr. McWhirter. I do not remember. 

The Chairman. Do you recall any conversation in which you told 
him that? 

Mr. McWhirter. I do not remember, sir. 

The Chairman. You have a vague recollection that you did tell 
him that? 

Mr. McWhirter. Why certainly. 

The Chairman. Are you certain that you told him that? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. You never did put it in writing, though? 

]\Ir. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You continued to correspond with him? 

]Mr. McWhirter. I tliink in 3 or 4 years I have written him four 
or five letters. 

The Chairman. And in no letter did you ever indicate any disap- 
proval of these reports? 

INIr. McWhirter. Xo letter:? in reference to the reports. 

Mr. Whitley. The same letter, Mr. McWhirter, December 9, Mr. 
Campbell to you; "with reference to confirmation of the reports may 
I suggest you tune in on Father Coughlin's speech, Sunday after- 
noon at 3 ox-lock central standard. I trust you heard it last Sunday 
afternoon." Had you and Mv. Campbell discussed the substance of 
Father Coughlin's speeches? 

Mr. INIcWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You had not. Do you consider yourself — or have 
you ever approved or engaged in the dissemination of antireligious 
and antiracial propaganda of any kind, Mr. McAVhiter? 

Mr. ]McWhirter. Never have. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever associated with or cooperated with 
anyone who was doing that? 

Mr. jVIcWhirter. I have not. 

]N[r. Whitley. You have not. ISfr. INIcWhirter, I read you your 
original letter dated December 12, 1938, addresed to jNIr. James E. 
Campbell : "Dear Campbell : Yours of the 9th this morning received. 
Is it true that Hull's wife is part or full-blood Semite?" Was there 
any particular reason for that inquiry, or was that in keeping with 
your conversations with ]Mr. Campbell ? Is that the reason you wrote 
him inquiring along that line? 

jNIr. jNIcWhirter. Your question is rather involved. I will be glad 
to answer it if you will take it apart. 

]\Ir. WiiiTLTY. All right. Was there any conversation with Mr. 
Campbell that prompted you to write him? 

Mr. IMcWiiiRTER. No, sir. 

INIr. Whitley. And make that inquiry. 

Mr. IMcWiiiRTER. There was not. 

INIr. Whitley. Was it your knowledge of Mr. Campbell's activities 
that ca^^ed you to believe he could answer that question for you? 



3398 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. McWhirter. I have known that Mr. Campbell has been able 
to get information from various parts of the country over a long 
period of time, and I could not now recall where I read some of 
these subscription sheets I presume — I subscribed to none of them — 
made allegations, and that letter is the answer as you read, the first 
paragraph is acknowledgment of the letter you read before from 
him and makes no reference to contents of his letter. 

Mr. Whitley. Continuing the same letter, Mr. McWhirter : "What 
do you know of Landon's Semitic connections? What do you kow 
of William Allen White's Semitic connections? Sincerely, Felix." 

The Chairman. Why did you want that information, Mr. 
McWhirter? 

Mr. McWhirter. For the same reason, sir, that I would like to have 
any factual information I could have. 

The Chairman. Well, how would the information aid in any re- 
spect? What difference did it make whether they had Semitic blood 
or not? 

Mr. McWhirter. Might make no difference. 

The Chairman. What was your interest in trying to find out 
whether Secretary Hull's wife had Semitic blood? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think that the hymn of hate has been sung in 
too many places in this country and by too many people and too 
many people are on the receiving end. I am only interested in know- 
ing, if I can, wdiat little is going on. 

The Chairman. But what value w^ould it be to you to find out 
that these people had Semitic blood or didn't have it ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Of no value. 

The Chairman. Did you want it for the purpose of disseminating 
the information yourself? 

Mr. McWhirter. I disseminate no information. 

The Chairman. You wanted it only for your own information? 

Mr. McWhirter. Certainly. 

The Chairman. Well, what caused you to believe that William 
Allen White had Semitic blood? 

Mr. McWhirter. I have no recollection of ever having stated that 
I believed that. 

The Chairman. Why did you want to ask the question ? 

Mr. McAVhirter. I did not ask that question. 

The Chair:man. Well, his connections; you asked here, "What do 
you know of Landon's Semitic connections?" What did you mean 
by that? 

Mr. McWhirter. Exactly what it says, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, explain to us what you meant by it — con- 
nections with reference to his family or his friends or his associates 
or in what respect? 

Mr. McWhirter. Organizations. 

The Chairman. Organizations? 

Mr. McWhirter. Certainly. 

The Chairman. You mean whether he belonged to a Semitic 
organization ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I wouldn't know^ anything about that. 

The Chairman. Well, what sort of a connection did you have in 
mind ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3399 

Mr. ISIcWhirter. I had no connection in mind. That is why I 
was seeking- the information. 

The Chaiiunian. I know, but you asked here : "What do you know 
of Landon's Semitic connections?" I am trying to tret in mind 
what information you w^anted. Did you want his connection with 
reference to Semitic organizations, whether he was a member of any 
Semitic organization i 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, I wouldn't believe that I would want that. 

The Chairman. Well, would you want the information with refer- 
ence to whether or not any of his friends had Semitic bloods 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You wouldn't want that ? 

IVIr. McWhirter. No. 

The Chairman. Well, would you want it with reference to whether 
or not any of his associates, people in his office, had Semitic blood? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think I answered as best I could when I indi- 
cated that my interpretation as I reasoned back then and as I see it 
now would simply mean that "connections" means "connections," and 
that is all I can say, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, but there are different kinds of connections. 
It may be a connection 

Mr. McAVhirter. All right, I knew of no connections. I asked 
if there were any. 

The Chairman. Well, what prompted you to ask that question? 

Mr. McWhirter. The desire to know, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, what question was raised in your mind? Did 
it just come out of the clear sky? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, no; as I attempted to remind the chairman 
a while ago, there are many, many printed documents and stenciled 
documents and all sorts of things for sale, if one will simply subscribe 
to them. Now and then they are reported in the press, all sorts of 
allegations. 

The Chairman. Did you ever see anything in the press 

Mr. McWhirter (interposing). I have no memory of where I 
saw it. 

The Chairman. Do you have any memory of seeing it in any 
publication ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What publication? 

Mr. McWhirter. I have no memory where it was. 

The Chairman. Don't know what publication? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. I am inclined to think it was one of these 
sheets that are gotten out. 

The Chairman. A Pelley sheet? 

Mr. McWhirter. Sir? 

The Chairman. Was it Mr. Pelley's sheet, the Silver Shirts pub- 
lication ? 

ISIr. McWhirter. No ; he doesn't send me any. 

The Chairman. Fritz Kuhn's publication ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir ; I don't receive those. 

The Chairman. You don't have any idea what publication it 
was? 

94931— 39— vol. o 15 



3400 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Well, you say here : "What do you know of 
William Allen White's Semitic connections?" 

Mr. McWhirter. Same answers for that. 

The Chairman. In other words, you have some vague recollection 
that somewhere you saw that charoe made? 

Mr. McWhirter. Oh, I think it is common knowledge. 

The Chairman. What is common knowledge? 

Mr. McWhirter. That what the chairman refers to is a charge 
that has been publicized here and there. 

The Chairman. You think it has been publicized pretty extensively 
that William Allen White and Landon had Semitic connections? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is what I testified to; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you think it has been publicized rather exten- 
sively that Mr. Hull's wife has Semitic blood? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think so. 

The Chairman. And you were curious to find out about" that, so 
you wrote to the man from whom you had been receiving these re- 
ports ; is that right ? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is right. 

The Chairman. You had a great deal of confidence in the veracity 
of Mr. Campbell, didn't you, to address these inquiries to him? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir; I did. 

The Chairman. Well, now, if you believed in his veracity, didn't 
you credit the contents of the reports that you were receiving? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You believed him in one respect but not in 
another? 

Mr. McWhirter. I couldn't answer that question. 

The Chairman. Well, what I am trying to understand is this, Mr. 
McWhirter: You say that with respect to the reports they appeared 
fantastic to you, but still you had confidence in the veracity of Mr. 
Campbell, enough confidence to justify you to write him to get cer- 
tain information, isn't that true? 

Mr. McWhirter. It is logical. 

The Chairman. Logical — is that a logical explanation? 

Mr. McWiHRTER. Why certainly. You might send me anything, 
sir, that you believed in, and I might believe m you and the thing 
that you sent me might be gi'ossly false, without your knowing it. 

The Chairman. Now the information you were asking from Mr. 
Campbell was along the same lines as carried in these reports, 
weren't they? 

Mr. McWhirter. I do not think so. 

The Chairman. You knew what the contents of the reports were, 
didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter. I judge in general — I had my memory refreshed 
yesterday. 

The Chairman. You knew that these reports purported to carry 
conversations of a revolutionary nature, didn't you — where promi- 
nent men were supposed to be gathered together and plotting to 
overthrow and destroy the American Government, didn't you? 

INIr. McWhirter. I read the reports. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. Well, you knew that was in there.- 

Mr. McWhirter. I wouldn't care to join your interpretation of 
them. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3401 

The Chairman. What is your interpretation of what the contents 
of the reports were? 

Mr. McWhirter. That they were fantastic. 

The Chairman. Didn't they deal with alleged conversations in 
this club in New York in which prominent people were alleged to have 
plotted the overthrow of this Government? Didn't they deal with 
that? 

Mr. McWhirter, I couldn't interpret the 

The Chairman (interposing). Didn't the reports deal with plan 
No. 1, plan No. 2, and plan No. 3, and wasn't one of the plans — 
the purpose of the administration dominated by alien influences was 
to involve us in war out of which chaos was to ensue, and a common 
estate following — wasn't that one of the plans? 

Mr. McWhirter. I didn't so interpret it; no, sir. 

The Chairman. How did you interpret it? 

Mr. McWhirter. I just read it. 

The Chairman. You don't know, recall, that it was? 

Mr. McWhirter. I can't name you, sir, 1, 2, and 3. 

The Chairman. Don't you know that another plan that was often 
carried in these reports was that a civil war would start similar to 
that in Spain, that the leftist gi'oup were plotting to start a civil 
war in the United States; don't you remember that was in the 
reports ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Don't remember that? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, what do you remember that the reports 
contained? 

Mr. McWhirter. I remember that they were reports that would 
come sometimes a week, sometimes 3 weeks, sometimes a month, of 
certain more or less clandestine gatherings, meetings where people 
discussed all sorts of fantastic things. That is what I remember. 

The Chairman. IVhat sort of people were they — almost generally 
Jewish people, weren't they? 

Mr. McWhirter. They may have been, but 

The Chairman (interposing). Well, didn't the reports so state 
that? 

Mr. McWhirter. Not that I know of. 

The Chairman. You don't know of that? 

Mr. McWhirter. Your question was whether they were Jewish 
people almost generally. I have no recollection of that. 

The Chairman. You don't have any recollection of that at all? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Now you got these reports over a long period of 
time. You made no effort to stop that, so far as you and Mr. Camp- 
bell are concerned, did you ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You didn't tell him, "Don't send me any more of 
this stuff"? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you ever make any effort to find out whether 
the reports had any truth or falsity? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 



3402 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. In view of your connection, did it ever occur to 
you that perhaps it might be advisable for you to take this up with 
the proper authorities ; that if this be true, if there were plotting in 
high quarters against the United States Government, it became your 
duty to report that to the proper authorities? Did that ever occur 
to you ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Had the occurrence to me been that there had 
been plotting in high places, certainly it would have occurred to me. 
That is mere conjecture, however. 

The Chairman. Well, what I am asking you is why you didn't 
report or carry these reports to the Intelligence Department of the 
(lovernment or to some proper authority and say, "Here, I have got 
reports from a man that I have confidence in, enough confidence in 
that I have addressed letters to him of a confidential nature, and 
according to these reports here are people plotting to destroy this 
(xovernment, and I think something ought to be done about it." 
Did that ever occur to you ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Mr. Chairman, anything that is fantastic spends 
itself. I have learned that. 

The Chairman. So it never occurred to you to take this matter to 
any naval intelligence? 

Mr. McWhirter. There is too much comes over a desk, too much 
mail of all sorts of fantastic schemes. 

Mr. Dempsey. May I ask a question? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. INIcWhirter, in the i-epoi-ts sent to you by Mr. 
Campbell can you recall a single one that did not contain some 
attack upon Jewish people? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir ; I can't recall a single report. 

Mr. Dempsey. They all attacked certain Jewish people? 

Mr. McWhirter. My answer was that I couldn't recall a single 
report. Your question was could I recall a single report that did not 
something. 

Mr. Dempsey. That did not contain 

Mr. McWhirter (interposing). I have no memory of a single 
report. 

Mr. Dempsey. And you don't know whether any of the reports con- 
tained an attack upon Jewish people or not. 

Mr. McWhirter. I didn't testify that. 

Mr. Dempsey. That is what I am asking you. 

Mr. McWhirter. I think some did. 

Mr. Dempsey. What percentage of them? 

Mr. McWhirter. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Dempsey. Didn't they all ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think I answered your 

Mr. Dempsey (interposing). Did you receive a single report sent 
out by Mr. Campbell that did not "contain an attack upon Jewish 
people ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Dempsey. You couldn't say. And you went to that very source 
to find out for your own information — you didn't want it for any 
other person — whether or not certain people had Jewish blood or 
Avhether they were connected with Jewish organizations. 



UN-AMERICAN TROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3403 

Mr. McWhirter. The letter is there. 

Mr. Dempsey. Yes. 

Mr. MoWhirtee. That is the answer. 

Mr. Dempsey. It is a very startling letter from a man in your posi- 
tion, I thought, a very startling letter. 

The Chairman. Mr. McWhirter, you, of course, are very much 
against class prejudice, are you not? 

Mv. McWhirter. I have never belonged to, joined, or never have 
had any intention of joining any secret organization, lodge, fraternity, 
or anything else. 

The Chairman. Are you against class prejudice? 

Mr. McWhirter. Certainly. 

The Chairman. You are against condemning an entire group, 
whether it be a class or race or religion, on account of the misdeeds 
or shortcomings of a minority within the group, aren't you— isn't 
that right? 

Mr. McWhirter. T don't know about minorities within groups. 

The Chairman. I may assume that it be true that within, say, a 
big group, any racial group or economic group or whatever you may 
term it, there are some within there that are not desirable citizens, 
you wouldn't judge everybody by the ones that are not good citizens, 
would you? 

Mr. McWhirter. Certainly not. 

The Chairman. You wouldn't do that in reference to businessmen. 
You know that in the business world there are some good businessmen 
and some that aren't good, isn't that right? 

Mr. McWhirter. I have so found out. 

The Chairman. You have met some who are not good, in the 
banking world, haven't you? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You wouldn't condemn all the bankers because 
you happened to meet a few that weren't or some that weren't desir- 
able citizens, would you? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think I testified. 

The Chairman. Isn't that correct? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. The same is true with reference to race and re- 
ligion, isn't it true, you don't approve of this thing of condemning 
an entire rnce or group, do you? 

Mr. McWhirter. I will be very pleased to answer questions. If 
the chairman wishes to make my answers for me, I shall have to ■ 

The Chairman (interposing). I am asking you, do you approve 
of it? 

Mr. McWhirter. I tliink that Jews, Gentiles, Catholics, Protestant, 
New Deal, Democrat, Republican, and everything else is pretty good. 

The Chairman. All right. If you are feeling that way, why did 
you continue to receive these reports without at any time indicating 
to Mr. Campbell your disapproval of what he was engaged in? 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, jxni miglit interpret it disapproval if one 
indicates to another that it seemecl rather fantastic. 

The Chairman. Mr. Campbell discussed with you the contents of 
this report many times, didn't he? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 



3404 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Well, when you met with him didn't you all talk 
about this thing? 

Mr. McAVhirter. I didn't meet with him. 

The Chairman. How many times have you seen him in the past 12 
months ? 

Mr. McWiiiRTER. Oh, I presume three. 

The Chairman. Three times. What did you talk about when you 
met, do you remember that? 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, occasionally he would come up to the rail. 
I miglit be engaged, and might not. I would step over and say 
hoAvdy-do to him. 

The Chairman. Did you talk with him about this matter of or- 
ganizing 435 congressional districts for the Republican Party? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairma]s\ You didn't discuss that with him at all? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You had his letters in which he outlined the plan 
to you, didn't you ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I recall no such" letter ; no, sir. 

The Chairman. You recall no such letter. You don't recall the 
letter he wrote you on November 1, 1938, when he said to you : 

I covered the situation witli Ilonier, and lie is coming to Indianapolis 
Thursday for a discussion with you. I told him of the 15,000 posts, the 435 
congressional districts, the type of organization that was to be perfected therein, 
the necessity of infrequent public appeai'ance until next year at the State 
meetings, and how this program could be controlled and developed. Now I 
did not discuss with him the cost. This is a variable factor, because each one 
of these 435 individuals must be properly contacted to develop the State 
organization and to coordinate the progress that has been made to date. 

You don't recall that letter ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Not specifically. I receive dozens and dozens of 
letters. I have no doubt of it. 

The Chairman. That he wrote you the letter ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. You have the letter. 

The Chairman. Were you in sympathy with his plans? 

Mr. McWhirter. I took no particular interest in the plans, any 
plans. 

The Chairman. You didn't write him back and tell him that you 
disapproved of that plan, did you? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. He saw you thereafter at a conference, or rather 
he went to Indianapolis to talk to you after that date, didn't he? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think not, sir. 

The Chairman. You mean after November 1, 1938, he didn't go 
to Indianapolis and talk to you? 

Mr. McWhirter. He may have been in Indianapolis and he may 
have spoken to me. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. You thought enough of the situation to introduce 
him to Mr. Hamilton at the Cornfield Convention, didn't you? 

Mr. Mc Whiter. I think the chairman is confused as to dates. I 
introduced probably 40 or 50 people, perhaps more, to Mr. Hamilton 
in August of last year. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3405 

Tlie Chairman. In August 1938? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. You introduced Mr. Campbell to Mr. Hamilton, 
didn't you? The fact is, you arranged for the meeting, didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. 

The Chairman. Didn't you write a letter to Mr. Hamilton and 
tell him you had a dear friend, absolutely dependable, and you 
wanted him to see him ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I may have written Mr. Hamilton. The chair- 
man was just speaking of an nitroduction of Campbell to Hamilton 
at the Cornfield Conference, where there were some 30,000 people. 

The Chairman. Did you make the introduction ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I so stated. 

The Chairman. And you wrote the letter, though, before the meet- 
ing, didn't you, to Mr. Hamilton and told him you had a very good 
friend, dear friend? 

Mr. McAVhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You didn't write any letter to Mr. Hamilton? 

Mr. McWhirter. Your question was, I wrote a letter, didn't I, 
before the Cornfield Conference. My answer was "No, sir." 

The Chairman. Did you write one after the Cornfield Conference? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. To Mr. Hamilton? 

Mr. McWhirter. The letter was read here yesterday. That letter 
was in the latter part of the year, from my memory of yesterday's 
meeting. 

The Chairman. And you recomended Mr. Campbell in that letter 
as being absolutely dependable, didn't you ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I certainly did. 

The Chairman. Even though you had been receiving these so-called 
fantastic reports over a long period of time — isn't that right? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think I testified that anything that is fantastic 
soon spends itself. 

The Chairman. Well, the answer to my question is this: That at 
the time you wrote this letter 

Mr. McWhirter. Which letter? 

The Ch.urman. To Mr. Hamilton — that is the letter you say you 
wrote after the Cornfield Conference in which you recommended 
Mr. Campbell in the highest terms; that is true, isn't it? 

Mr. MoAVhirter. That is what the chairman says. 

The Chairman. Well, what do you say about it ? 

Mr. ]\IcWhirter. I say I wrote a letter to Mr. Hamilton at the 
request of Mr. Campbell, enclosing a letter that Mr. Campbell had 
addressed to Mr. Hamilton. 

The Chairman. And didn't you in your letter to Mr. Hamilton say 
that Mr. Campbell was absolutely dependable ? 

Mr. McWhirter. That inference is all right — not those words. 

The Chairman. I am not talking about the inference. 

Mr. McWhirter. The letter is there — that he was a long-time 
friend, and so forth. 

The Chairman. And that letter was written after Mr. Campbell 
wrote you about this organization in 435 congressional districts, 
wasn't it? 



3406 UN-AINIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. McWhirter. I have no recollection of that. 

The Chairman. Well, the letter that Mr. Campbell wrote you about 
this organization, political organization, was November 1, 1938. 
Now, did you write the letter to Mr. Hamilton after that date? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think I did. I do not know. 

The Chairman. All right. Do you recall the meeting between Mr. 
Campbell and Mr. Hamilton ? Were you present at that meeting? 

Mr. McWhirter. I know of no meeting. 

The Chairman. Do you recall any meeting — I thought you said 
you introduced Mr. Campbell to Mr. Hamilton. 

Mr. McWhirter. My dear Mr. Chairman, you have had experience 
yourself in political meetings. Here is a large platform, hundreds of 
people milling up to meet the chairman. That is the place and the 
time at which I introduced Mr. Campbell to Mr. Hamilton. So far 
as I know, that is the only time that Mr. Campbell and Mr. Hamilton 
have met face to face. 

The Chairman. But you do recall having introduced Mr. Camp- 
bell to Mr. Hamilton? 

Mr. McWhirter. I am willing to recall it because I introduced him. 

The Chairman. Then, thereafter you undertook to arrange a meet- 
ing between Mr. Hamilton and Mr. Campbell, didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chair i\i an. Do you recall any conversation that took place 
between Mr. Hamilton and Mr. Campbell after you introduced them? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Ci-iAir.MAN. Do you know whether they talked at all? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You just got up and left, did you? 

Mr. McWhirter. AVe were all up. This was after, at the close 
of the meeting. 

The Chairman. Now, you helped arrange the meeting at Indi- 
anapolis at which General Moseley spoke, didn't you ? 

Mr. IMcWhirter. I asked for a letter seconding an invitation that 
went from the State chairman to General Moseley, and I further 
wrote Mr. Campbell, suggesting certain hopes that I had of treat- 
ment that Mr. Moseley might give in that meeting. 

The Chairman. Well, on December 21, 1938, you wrote to Mr. 
Campbell as follows [reading] : 

Dear ,Tim : Even though I am going to try to talk to you on the phone in a 
few mhiutes, nevertheless I want to put some thoughts to you in writing. We 
are all very much encouraged and enthused about the plans for our conference 
Thursday "the 29th, which will culminate in the big luncheon meeting from 
where Indiana and the Nation will hear General Moseley. 

You recall writing that? 

Mr. McWhirter. I should be pleased as a matter of personal 
privilege to have the chairman read the Avhole of the letter. 

The Chairman. I will be glad to read the whole of the letter. Do 
you recall reading the letter? I am asking you now. 

IVIr. McWhirter. I recall having written the letter. 

The Chairman. Writing the letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman (reading) : 

It occurred to me it sometimes is helpful to a speaker to have circumstances' 
surrounding a meeting at which he is to speak outlined for him. You will 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3407 

know best what part of the information that I am giving you in this letter 
should be sent to General Moseley. 

There has been a tendency in the Republican organization in this State, and 
I suppose in others, to cease all activities immediately after the election and 
to hibernate until shortly after the next political convention 2 years hence. 
Then a very hasty organization is assembled, usually without any system and 
without any real plan, and that organization operates until the election in a 
state of utmost confusion. Naturally you know such isn't good business. If we 
are to be consistently successful, we must carry on a continuous fight and 
we miTSt have a specific program, providing for the accomplishment of certain 
definite objectives. 

The meeting to be held December 29 at which General Moseley is to be the 
guest speaker will be the first real stride that we have taken in that direction. 
Attending the meeting will be some three or four hundred businessmen from 
all parts of Indiana, 72 newly elected mayors, 283 newspaper editors and pub- 
lishers, and 67 legislators. It is our thought that through the program that 
day and through a series of group conferences preceding it we can give birth 
to some cohesion between the publishers, officials, and businessmen, and at 
the same time impress the latter with the necessity for their cooperation and 
assistance. There will be no solicitation of funds in connection with this 
meeting. 

There are several points which it could be suggested to General Moseley, 
without giving offense, might be of great help to us if they could be brought 
out in his address. One of these is the fact that political organizations as 
they are now constituted are very definitely archaic. If we are to be successful, 
their tempo must be developed along lines applying to business organizations of 
this day and age. We must develop a virility, and we must exercise some- 
thing of the salesmanship that applies to business. Above all else it seems 
to me we must show the ordinary voter how and why the republican form of 
government can be made to benefit him more than any other form. This is 
especially necessary because the newness of some of the totalitarian forms of 
government seem to impress unthinking people with their freshness and virility. 
We must make it plain to people that primarily the function of the republican 
form of governmeut is defense. Carried to the ultimate, it is defense of in- 
dividual rights. There is no such thing as a recognition of individual rights 
in a totalitarian state, and much as we regret it the trend in our own National 
Government is all in that dii ection at this time, as you know. We must make 
them see that the Constitution in its present form is the only real defense 
that they have against invasion of their individual rights, and that each attack 
upon the Constitution, no matter how specious the excuses may be, under- 
mines the Constitution, and as a natural result weakens their individual rights 
and freedom by oiiening the way for direction from the top rather than from 
the individual through duly elected representatives. In connection with this 
matter of government as an instrument of defense, we nmst make them see 
that defense is the primary purpose and that services are merely extras for 
which they pay and through which much of what is now Avrong with the Gov- 
ernment is wished or imposed upon them. We must make them see, too, that 
all of the above is directly tied in with that clause in the Declaration of 
Independence which refers to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." We 
must make them see that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is really 
nothing but freedom of initiative and endeavor. 

I should like also to see some reference made to the traditions of Indiana, 
the manner in which it was settled by pioneers who came up through Cumber- 
land Gap, through Kentucky, and thence across the Ohio River into Indiana. 
I should like to see it made clear that it was the position under the pi'otection 
of the republican form of government that permitted them the freedom of 
initiative and endeavor that enabled them to take part in that free nation, 
that under the present parental system they would have lacked that freedom. 

General Moseley's New York Board of Trade speech impressed me tremen- 
dously. It was that speech which above all else caused me to know him to be 
the logical man to make the main address before this important meeting. I 
should like to see some of the points which he brought out in that .speech em- 
phasized in the one to be delivered here also, particularly that portion which 
refers to the enemies within and with reference to those statements that he 
made concerning our present foreign policies. 

You will know how much of this to pass along to General Moseley, and I am 
depending upon your discretion to say nothing that would cause him to think 



3408 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

that we are attempting to write his speech for him. As I said before, I did 
feel that perhaps an outline of the situation might really be helpful to him. 
Will be looking forward to having you with us, and perhaps we can arrange 
for Colonel Morehead and a few others to dine together with the general that 
night if his plans will so permit. 
Sincerely, 

Felix M. McWhirtbr. 

P. S. — You get the implication, I am sure, in all of this rather lengthy letter 
that there is an opportunity to bring out the inherent difference as well as the 
fallacy in the common definition between a republic and a democracy, which 
no outstanding figure has yet made clear, and I am wondering if this isn't the 
real opportunity. Very little opportunity is necessary to make plain the 
difference. 

That is your letter. I have read it fully. 

Mr. MoWhirter. Yes, sir. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Now in your letter, throuahout there, you speak 
of "we," you are includino; Mr. Campbell with yourself, or are you? 
Would that be a proper interpretation when you say "we" through- 
out the letter? Are you speaking of Mr. Campbell and yourself? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Who are you speaking of, "we?" 

Mr. McWhirter. The officers of the Republican State central com- 
mitte, who were the hosts at this meeting. 

The Chairman. So that in your letter to INIr. Campbell when you 
say "we" you weren't speaking of Mr. Campbell and yourself, but 
you were speaking of these other people and yourself, is that right? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. So that in this letter you yourself recognized the 
necessity for some organization to be built up, didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter. Oh, I recognized a necessity for an organization 
all my life. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. McWhirter. That is our system of Government, party system. 

The Chairman. And that was written after the letter from Mr. 
Campbell to you of November 1, 1938, when he outlined his plan of 
organizing 435 congressional districts? He wrote you that on No- 
vember 1, telling you how that you had to organize these 15,000 posts. 
And then on December 21, 1938, nearly 2 months later, you wrote him, 
in which you approved of perfecting some type of organization, isn't 
that right? 

Mr. McWhirter. Not by implication, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, you did write him, didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. To that effect. 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, you wrote him of the necessity of perfecting 
organization, didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter. The organization being the Republican Party. 

The Chairman. That is what you had in mind, the Republican 
Party — and that is what he had in mind? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is quite evident. I don't know that is what 
he had in mind. 

The Chairman. Now when you were talking about the totalitarian 
governments, your opposition to them, you know, or is it your opin- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3409 

ion, that the dissemination of hatred had anything to do with the 
establishment of these dictatorships abroad? 

Mr. McWniRTER. I have no judgment on the cause of those. 
The Chairman. You do, though, regard the dissemination of any 
class, racial, or religious hatred as un-American, don't you? 
Mr. McWhirter. Certainly. 

The Chairman. You don't approve it as an American citizen ? 

Mr. MoWhirter. I so testified. 

The Chairman. Yet, nevertheless, what is your explanation for 
having written to Mr. Campbell in which you yourself are trying 
to elicit information with reference to whether or not the Secretary of 
State's wife had Jewish blood and whether or not Mr. Landon and 
the other gentleman had Jewish connections? Wliat is your ex- 
planation for your attitude in this letter in opposition to totalitarian 
governments and your attitude in writing a letter in which you are 
eliciting this sort of information? Can you give us any sort of 
explanation? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't know that there is any connection in 
totalitarian government and any race. 

The Chairman. Don't you know, as a matter of fact, that all of 
the dictatorships arose first by the spreading of hatred among people, 
racial and class hatred? 

Mr. McWhirter. I assume so — that and the zest for power. 

The Chairman. And you saw the same thing being done by Mr. 
Campbell, didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Why, didn't you regard these reports as being the 
most violent type of religious propaganda or anti-religious propa- 
ganda ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I testified that the reports that I received seemed 
fantastic to me, and that I w^as uninformed as to any general dis- 
semination of those reports. 

The Chairman. From what standpoint did you consider them 
fantastic ? 

Mr. McWhirter. From the standpoint of their context. 

The Chairman. But you did know that these reports all dealt with 
racial and religious matters, didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter.. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You knew that was the basis of them, didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You didn't regard them as anti-Semitic propa- 
ganda ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No; I did not. 

The Chairman. Well, what did you regard them as? 

Mr. McWhirter. As a fantastic dream of someone as to how the 
Government might be taken over by those who wished to grasp 
power. 

The Chairman. Well, did you see the name of anyone mentioned in 
the reports except members of the Jewish race ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't recall the names, but, as I testified before, 
there were names that I wouldn't know whether they were of one 
race or another. Certainly not all of one race. 



3410 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Dempsey. May I ask the witness ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. McWhirter, there were names you did know of 
or heard of ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Dempsey. Were those Jewish or not ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Some were. 

Mr. Dempsey. What name that you can recall was not? 

Mr. McWhirter. I can't recall any names. 

Mr. Dempsey. You can't recall any that was not ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think the reports have the names in them. 

Mr. Dempsey. But you can't recall any that were not Jewish in those 
reports ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I can't recall any names. 

The Chairman. Now, do you recall a letter of December 19, 1938, 
that Mr. Campbell wrote you, as follows : 

Dear Felix : Your letter sent to the General was splendid. If you do not 
hear from him by tomorrow I will call as you suggest. However, he was delayed 
in leaving New York, so I am not worrying yet. Will have the General present 
even if we have to "shanghai" him. I am enclosing a clipping by the Honorable 
Hugh Johnson which is rather interesting. There are several phases of this 
matter to be discussed, and I hope Homer will be present. I would like, after 
discussing certain features with you. to be able to sit down with Mr. Irwin 
for about 1 hour, if we can keep him that long. Put this meeting across suc- 
cessfully on the 29th, give us the right kind of assistance, and I guarantee to 
give you a meeting like that in each State, to be addressed by either the General 
or Homer during the ensuing year. Most cordially yours. 

Do you recall that letter ? 

Mr. McWhirter. In a general way ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did any meeting follow as a result of it? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, what did you do after you got that letter? 
Did you talk to him over the telephone ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. I may have called to find out whether the 
general was accepting the invitation. I may have done that. I don't 
i-ecall. 

The Chairman. But much of your communication with Mr. Camp- 
bell was over the telephone, was it not ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You didn't talk to him over the telephone long 
distance to Owensboro? 

Mr. McWhirter. I may have talked to him as I just testified. 

The Chairman. So you say no meeting took place as a result of 
this letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is right. 

The Chairman. Now, did you write a letter dated December 17, 
1938, to Maj. Gen. George Van Horn Moseley, Biltmore Hotel, 
Atlanta, Ga.? 

Mr. McWhirter, I don't recall the date. I think I wrote a letter 
seconding the invitation of the chairman. 

The Chairman. Did you write this letter : 

My Dear General Moseley: It is, indeed, sir, with more than vuicommon 
enthusiasm that I not only join in seconding the invitation which was extended 
to you through our mutual friend, James E. Campbell, but also do I wish to 
express my deep appreciation for the stalwart work you are doing. Those of 
us who have been charged with some responsibility carrying on hereabouts are 



I 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3411 

all looking forward with keen anticipation to the opportunity to again meet 

you and to share you with the others to be assembled in the Riley Room at the 

Claypool Hotel, Indianapolis, on Thursday noon, December 29. With cordial 

regards, 

Sincerely, _^ 

Felix M. McWhirtek. 

You wrote that letter, didn't you j 

Mr. McWhirter. It sounds like it. 

The Chairman. Well, do you recall it? 

Mr. McWhirter. Some such letter. I have no x^recise memory on 
■what I write. I write several letters. 

The Chairman. Well, do you recall writing a letter of December 
17, 1938, to Mr. James E. Campbell, Business Engineering Asso- 
ciates, 304 Odd Fellow Building, Owensboro, Ky.— 

Dear Jim : Attached is a copy of a letter which I have put in the mail to 
General Mosely. Talked to Colonel Morehead and he is writing also. We- 
just must have him here without fail — 

underscore "without fail" — 

If you don't hear v.ithin a reasonable time, get on the phone, please. 
Sincerely, 

Femx McWhirtek. 

Do you recall that letter ? 

Mr.' McWhirter. In a general way; yes. 

The Chairman. Well, suppose you look at it, so we won't have any 
doubt about it. 

Mr. McWhirter. That is my signature. 

The Chairman. That is your letter, is it ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

Tlie Chairman. And this other letter was a copy that you trans- 
mitted in that letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. I assume so. 

The Chairman. Well, you better look at it, so we will know. 

Mr. McWhirter. As far as I know. I have no question about it. 
But when joi\ ask a specific 

The Chairman (interposing). Well, you can't say whether that was 
the letter that you transmitted? 

Mr. McWhirter. It looks like — that is my letter, isn't it ? 

Mr. Dempsey. That is what we are asking you. You should know 
whetlier it is yours or not. That is what we are trying to find outv 
What we would like to have is an answer to that question of the chair- 
man, Is that your letter or not ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Let me see it. This is a carbon copy — purports 
to be a carbon copy of a letter which I am willing to accept the author- 
ship of. I do not know that it is. I don't think anybody could testify 
any more definitely than that. 

The Chairman. Now, on October 3, 1938, do you recall receiving a 
letter — or do 3^011 recall receiving a letter dated October 3, 1938, from 
Mr. Campbell, in which he said : 

Dear Felix : I have driven 6,000 miles on this trip. Have uncovered some 
extremely interesting data in line with the copy of the enclosed letter to Homer 
Capehart. 

Now, this is confidentially between you and me ; but in that man we have a 
natural. Not for the national chairmanship of the Republican Party but for a 
1940 nominee for President. When I give you a report of the hundreds of inter- 
views that I have held across the country and back and the sentiment of the 



3412 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

buck-private World War veteran, I think you will agree with me. I have a 
very delinite plan in mind, vphich could result in his nomination, which I should 
like to discuss with you. 

I expect to be here in the office all week and will be glad to have your reac- 
tion on the afore-mentioued subject. 

I am enclosing a couple of forms which are self-explanatory, and in tlie one 
marked No. 1 you can see the very thinly veiled threat of regimentation. 

Do you recall that letter ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I do not. 

The Chairman. You don't recall receiving the letter at all? 

Mr. McWhirter. I probably received it, but I have no specific 
memory. 

The Chairman. Following that letter did you have any conversa- 
tion with him? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Didn't you have any conversation? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you talk to him over the telephone? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Tne Chairman. Did you ever talk to him about his plan of mak- 
ing Capehart the nominee in 1940? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

'The Chairman. Never talked to him about it? 

TVIr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. May I ask a few questions? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you mean to tell me that you don't recall receiv- 
ing that letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. I testified that I had no specific recollection of 
receiving that letter. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, you heard the letter read yesterday, didn't 
you ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Then it didn't recall to your mind that you had 
received it? 

Mr. INIcWhirter. I have received, as I believe I testified, over a 
hundred letters — certainly over a hundred letters; perhaps 200 let- 
ters — from Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Thomas. What was your opinion of Mr. Campbell after re- 
ceiving these two or three hundred letters and hearing his testimony 
yesterday ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, that he has considerable zeal and some 
undue enthusiasm along certain lines. That is only natural. It 

Mr. Thomas (interposing). Did — go ahead. 

Mr. McWhirter. I was only going to remark that it was only 
natural that anyone who attencted the Cornfield Conference would be 
full of adulation. He is not the only one ; many are. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you believe that that plan of his of organizing 
435 congressional districts for the Kepublican Party was just a 
dream and a fantastic dream? 

Mr. McWhirter. I have always believed in regular party organiza- 
tion, and in that only, in reference to partisan politics. 

Mr. Thomas. Don't you believe, though, that it would be impos- 
sible for that man Campbell to organize 400 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3413 

Mr. McWhirter (interposino). Certainly so. 

Mr. Thomas. So it must be just fantastic? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is right. 

Mr. Thomas. Did ]\Ir. Campbell have an account at your bank? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Did he ever ask you for funds ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't think he ever asked me. I heard testi- 
mony yesterday, but I don't think he ever asked me directly for 
funds. I think the implication of getting assistance for him has 
been there. 

Mr. Thomis. a lot has been said here the past 2 days about the 
connection between anti-Semitism and the Republican Party. Do 
you think that the Republicans of your State ^yould be opposed to the 
Jewish people any more than the Democrats of your State or the 
New Dealers of your State would be opposed to Jewish people? 

Mr. McWhirter. I can answer part of that, certainly, that the 
Republicans are not. I can't answer for the Democrats and the New 
Dealers in Indiana. 

Mr. Thomas. And after receiving all this mail from Campbell and 
after reading of the testimony that he gave, Gilbert gave in the past 
few days, and listening to part of it yesterday, aren't you ashamed 
that you ever had this contact with Campbell ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No ; I can't admit any shame at all. 

Mr. Thomas. You would go right ahead and do the same thing all 
over again ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Not necessarily. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you think you would or wouldn't? 

Mr. McWhirter. No connection with a man doing the same thing 
twice and a matter of shame. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, you certainly can't be proud of the attitude he 
took. 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, I haven't any right to be proud or not 
proud of the attitude anyone else takes. 

Mr. Thomas. Would you do it all over again ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Under the same circumstances I probably would. 

The Chairman. Now, do you recall a letter written you on Decem- 
ber 13, 1938, by Mr. J. E. Campbell, as follows : 

Dear Felix : I am enclosing a copy of General Moseley's address to be given 
before tbe New York Board of Trade tomorrow noon — 

now, before I read any further, do you know George Deatherage ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Ever receive any communication from him? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir ; not that I know of. 

The Chairman. Did you ever read any letter that he had written 
to Mr. Campbell ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't recall any. 

The Chairman. Don't recall Mr. Campbell ever sending you one of 
Mr. Deatherage's letters? 

Mr. McWhirter. I do not. 

The Chairman (reading) : 

Please return this for my files. Also enclosing copy of a letter received from 
George Deatherage for your personal and confidential advice — 



3414 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Do you recall that ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I didn't. 

The Chairman. You don't recall getting the letter that he, Mr. 
Campbell, sent you or that he speaks of sending you, enclosing it^ 
from Mr. Deatherage ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I have no recollection of it. 

The Chairman. Have no recollection of that? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. 

The Chairman (reading) : 

At the same time I am in receipt of a letter from Doug — 

Who did he mean? 

Mr. McWhirter. I presume he referred to Mr. Gilbert. 

The Chairman (reading) : 

in which he says Munclelein's crowd is going to attacls him along with Coughliii. 
He is also being attacked by G. O. Masonry. As you know, I have gone about 
as long and as far as I can go on these matters without an intelligent, well- 
informed organization in back of us, capable of providing the sinews of war. 
There is not a hell of a lot of time left, and I have things pouring in constantly 
proving that Nos. 2 and 3 are being worked simultaneously. Anyone with the 
least amount of intelligence who has studied this situation knows very definitely 
the reason for Eden's visit here, and you have evidence of No. 2 all about you. 
I realize next month will be an important meeting in Washington, and am 
planning to go. I had hoped Homer would be in the picture by now, because 
this is just one of the emergencies that is confronting us. 

Do you recall that letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. I recall it in a general way. I have no specific 
recollection of these i^ieces of correspondence. 

The Chairman. Well, did you meet with him in Washington? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Were you present at that time, at any meeting in 
Washington ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't recall having been at any meeting of any 
kind. 

The Chairman. This letter was written December 13, 1938. Mr. 
Campbell is speaking to you about a meeting that is to take place 
in January 1939. Were you in Washington, January 1939? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't recall, sir, whether I was or not. 

The Chairman. Don't recall whether you met here or not? 

Mr. McWhirter. I had no meeting with Mr. Campbell, if I was. 

The Chairman. You are definite that you don't recall whether 
you were in Washington, January 1939? 

Mr. McWhirter. I do not. 

The Chairman. Do you come to Washington very often? 

Mr. McWhirter. In the past 16 years I presume I have been here 
on 125 different occasions. 

The Chairman. How many times have you been here this year? 

Mr. McWhirjer. Two or three. 

The Chairman. Two or three times? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. And yet you don't recall whether you came in 
January 1939 ? 

Mr. jAIcWhirter. I do not. 

The Chairman. I see. Do you recall any other trip since January 
1939 that you made to Washington outside the one you are on now? 



UN-AMERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3415 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir ; I was here on approximately May 1. 

The Chaikman. May 1 ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Approximately; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. At what meeting was that? Was there a meeting 
on May 1 of any kind, or did you just make 

Mr. McWhirter (interposing). Well, of course, I think Washing- 
ton has meetings all the time, but this was the annual meeting of the 
National Chamber of Commerce. 

The Chairman. And you were there on that particular occasion? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is right. 

Mr. Thomas. Perhaps the committee would also like to know 
whether on any of these trips to Washington the past few months you 
came on Republican Party business. 

Mr, McWhirter. Well, I didn't have that in mind. 

IMr. Thomas. Well, I have got it in mind now. Did you the last 
few months come on any Republican Party business to Washington ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't recall that I did. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, did you come to Washington in the last few 
months other than the one visit that you made ? 

Mr, McWhirter. As I testified, I may have and I may not have. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, Mr. McWhirter, you know perfectly well 
whether you came to Washington or whether you didn't come to 
Washington in the last few months. A man that can hold the office 
of the i^resident of a bank ought to be able to recall wdiether he came 
to Washington in the last few months or not. 

Mr. McWhirtee. The question of Mr. Dies w^as. Was I in Wash- 
ington in January ? 

Mr. Thomas. Yes ; but I am asking the question now whether you 
came to Washington in the past few months or not. 

]VIr. McWhirter. I answered "Yes." 

Mr. Thomas. And on any of these visits in the last few months did 
you come on Republican Party business? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think not. There was a meeting at one time 
over here in the Carlton. I don't know whether that was in January 
or since or prior. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, over any period of time did anyone on the 
Republican National Committee or Mr. John Hamilton request that 
you hold a meeting at which General Moseley should speak? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. 

Mr. Thomas. Did anyone on the Republican National Committee 
or Mr. John Hamilton, the chairman, ever encourage you to have this 
association with Campbell? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. 

Mr, Thomas, That is all I have. 

The Chairman. Now, do you recall a letter written on January 9, 
1939, by Mr. J. E, Campbell to you, saying : 

Dear Femx : Enclosed is a copy of a short note received from our mutual ■ 
friend in the East. The trip to JLexington was well worth while, as it gave us 
the opportunity of bringing the issue before the entire department. Don't forget 
the Naval Directory, as I have already accumulated the rest of the information 
and would like to present it to the gentleman who requested it next week. 

Do you recall that letter? 

Mr, McWhirter, In a general way. 

94931— 39— vol. 5 16 



3416 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The CiiAiRMAisr. Who was the friend in the East? 

Mr. McWhirtek. I presume it was Mr. Gilbert. 

The Chairman. Did you send the Naval Directory ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I did not. 

The Chairman. Do you recall a letter of January 12, 1939, written 
to you by Mr. Campbell in which he said : "Some of the speeches I 
sent out are beginning to bear results, and they are wanting a mam- 
moth meeting to be held in New Orleans within the next month or 6 
weeks. This will also be spread to Texas and other States as per 
schedule." Do you remember any such letter containing any such 
statement ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Not particularly. 

The Chairman. You are not saying you didn't get the letter ? 

Mr, McWhirter, No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you recall a letter of January 24, 1939, from 
Mr. Campbell, in which he said : "I have written Homer. Speaking 
dates for Moseley have been confirmed at Nashville, Scranton, and 
Philadelphia during the coming month. The other trip scheduled" ? 

Mr. I\IcWhirter. Not specifically. 

The Chairman. Why was Campbell carrying on a regular corre- 
spondence with you with reference to these political meetings 
throughout the country and his trips? 

Mr. McWhirter. It' was not correspondence. 

The Chairman. You wrote him on some occasions, didn't you ? _ 

Mr. McWhirter. Probably two or three other than the specific 
mission of getting Moseley to the Indianapolis meeting. 

The Chairman. And you did have personal conferences with him 
when he came to Indianapolis. 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, you might term it "conferences." 

The Chairman. Well, what did you all talk about? Didn't you 
talk about these plans outlined in his letters ? 

Mr. McAVhirter. I am not interested in plans and propaganda. 
I didn't have conferences on things of that kind. 

The Chairman. Well, you were enough interested in it to write Mr, 
Hamilton and ask for an interview between Mr. Campbell and Mr. 
Hamilton. 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, you did write that letter, didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter. I wrote a letter. 

The Chairman. A letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir; conveying a letter. 

The Chairman. And recommending Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. McWhirter. As a person. 

Tlie Chairman. And asking Mr. Hamilton to see him, didn't you ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think not. It was simply a letter conveying 
a letter of Campbell's to Mr. Hamilton. 

Mr. Healet. As I recall that letter, Mr. Mc'WHiirter, you stated to 
Mr. Hamilton that this man was a dependable person. 

Mr. McWhirter. By implication ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Healey. "VYliom you had known over a long period of years, 
and in whom you had the greatest confidence. 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, that is more specific perhaps than I wrote, 
but that was my view anyhow. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3417 

Mr. Healey. "Wasn't that in substance the contents of the letter of 
introduction, of the letter that you had written to Hamilton for 
Campbell — is that correct ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Mr. Hamilton read the letter yesterday after- 
noon. It would speak for itself. 

Mr. Healey. And it expressed your complete confidence in him. 

Mr. McWhirter. No; not my complete confidence. 

Mr. Healey. And attested the fact he was a dependable man, con- 
veying that information to Mr. Hamilton that he could depend on 
this man, you had known him over a period of years and had a 
great deal of confidence in him — didn't you say that in substance? 

Mr. McWhirter. The letter will have to speak for itself. 

Mr. Healey. Do you recall that was the contents of the letter ? 

Mr. McW^hirter. In a general way. I see no particular reason 
why anyone should attempt to testify for me. The letter will speak 
for itself. 

Mr. Healey. No one is attempting to testify for you. I am asking 
you if that isn't your recollection of the letter that you wrote to 
Mr. Hamilton concerning Campbell. 

Mr. McWhirter. Not exactly. 

Mr. VooRHis. Well, in any case, this letter was rather a strong 
letter of recommendation to Mr. Hamilton for Mr. Campbell. 
Now at the time that that letter was written you were already familiar 
with these so-called confidential reports that Mr. Campbell ATas send- 
ing out and which you yourself have described as being so fantastic 
that you didn't feel you could take them seriously, yet they were 
given out by Mr. Campbell on his own responsibility, for what seems 
to me a very obvious purpose. I can't make those two things fit 
together. I can't make your recommendation of Mr. Campbell to 
Mr. Hamilton fit with the kind of thing that you already knew Mr. 
Campbell was engaged in in connection with those reports. I mean, 
did you feel that that was a good job Mr. Campbell was doing? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think perhaps I could answer by repeating the 
testimony given prior to the gentleman's entrance, and that was that 
my experience over a considerable number of years has been that 
M^here there was anything fantastic it spends itself. The letter to 
which you refer will speak for itself. The letter attempted to get 
the reading of a letter from Mr. Campbell to Mr. Hamilton by Mr. 
Hamilton. 

Mr. Voorhis. Well, but I mean when you say that something fan- 
tastic spends itself, that hardly calls for the conclusion that the per- 
son that spreads things of that kind is engaged in an operation which 
ought to be recommended, it seems to me. 

Mr. McWhirter. There has been no operation recommended that 
I know of. 

Mr. Voorhis. That certainly was one of the things in which Mr. 
Campbell was the most interested. 

The Chairman. We will have that letter in a minute. 

Do you recall a letter dated August 29, 1938, from Mr. J. E. Camp- 
bell to you in which he says : 

Dear Felix : I wish to take this oportunity of thanking you for the most en- 
thusiastic and inspiring Americanism meeting I have attended in a long time. 
First, I would like to compliment the general staff upon their thoroughness in 



3418 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

the arranging of details and the caliber of the speakers secured. I think a great 
deal will come from this meeting, and it was extremely valuable for me because 
I can carry the torch that was lighted there to our contacts in the rest of the 
States." 

What was he talking about when he said "our contacts" ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't know; but he was certainly right about 
the meeting, because it resulted in adding six Congressmen. 

The Chairman. I am asking about "our contacts." He is writing 
to you about "our contacts." 

]\Ir. McWhirter. I can't interpret what he means when he writes. 

Tlie Chairman. You don't know what he meant by that at all ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. 

The Chairman. You don't knoAv what he meant wdien he repeatedly 
mentioned plan 1, 2, or 3 in different letters to you either, do you? In 
some of the correspondence he mentioned to you plan No. 1, plan No. 2, 
and plan No. 3. 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, I presume he was referring to this report. 

The Chairman. But you knew at the time you received the letter 
what he was talking about, didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter." What letter, sir ? 

The Chairman. The letters from Mr. Campbell when you received 
them, in wdiich he mentioned these plans. You knew what he was 
talking about, didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter. When I received the letters from Mr. Campbell, 
I assume that I knew what he was talking about in the letters. 

The Chairman. You assume? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir ; I assume I do. 

The Chairman (reading) : 

I was particularly impressed with the sincerity, exactness, and frankness of 
Mr. Capehart's speech. I would like to express my sentiments to Mr. Capehart 
personally, but since I do not know his address I am enclosing a letter which I 
wish you to either hand or word to him. I will be here in the office for the 
next several days getting things together in the hopes of making Los Angeles and 
accomplishing the mission outlined to you. If you desire to see me in Indianapolis 
I can run up on very short notice. A wire here to the office will accomplish the 
purpose. 

Did you ever wire him or get in touch with him about it? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You never did see him following that letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. Not that I recall, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know what that mission was that he spoke 
of — said "accomplishing the mission outlined to you" — what was that 
mission ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I do not know. 

The Chairman. Don't know that. Now you say you never did give 
Mr. Campbell any money? 

Mr. McWhirter. I didn't recall having said it, but I am pleased 
to say it. 

Mr. Thomas. Yes, Mr. Chairman, when I asked the question he said 
that he had not. 

Mr. McWhirter. That is true. 

The Chairman. You never gave him any money, directly or in- 
directly, or througli any third party? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3419 

The Chairman. Did he ever wire you for any money ? 

Mr. MoWhirter. Not that I recall. I think I testified to that. 

The Chairman. You don't recall? 

Mr. McWhirter. The implication was there for help. 

Tlie Chairman. What? 

Mr. JMcWhirter. I think the implication has been there that he 
would like to have had help. 

The Chairman. I see. Financial help? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. Now do you recall a letter of May 9, 1939, to 
you in which Mr. Campbell said : "Am enclosing a few things of in- 
terest. Hope you will follow through with Homer to get the film 
completed as quickly as possible. I am waiting to see if H. E. C. 
attempts to get in connnunication. Suggest that you warn him rela- 
tive to the sender of the blueprints and the reason thereof before he 
commits a tactical error." Do you recall that letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. I do not specifically ; no, sir. 

The Chairman. You don't know what he was talking about? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. AVhen he said "blueprints"? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. And that you ought to warn this fellow? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. "^ " 

Tlie Chairman. You don't recall a thing about it ? 

Mr. McW^hirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you recall a letter of April 28, 1939, to Mr. 
Felix McWhirter when Mr. Campbell said: "Dear Felix, am inclosing 
a piece of literature printed and supported by the D. A. V. After 
looking it over I want you to go back through some past scores" — ■ 
you knew what he meant when he said "scores," talking about reports — 
"and see where reference is made to one Roy Monahan. This folder 
proves the correctness of said plan to draw attention to spy scare, 
therefore covering up plan 2 and 3. This certainly is drawing the red 
herring across the trail of the real menace to this country. I expect 
to see you sometime next week and hope we are successful with our 
mission." Do you know what he was talking about when he said 
"our mission"? 

Mr. McWhirter. No — his mission. 

The Chairman. Do you recall receiving the literature he sent you? 

Mr. McWhirter. Not specifically. If I received it, I didn't have 
time to make the check-up that is suggested. 

The Chairman. I see. Now, on April 12, 1939, there is a letter here, 
copy of a letter from Mr. Campbell to you, in which he said : "Dear 
Felix, thanks very much for information about East and South. 
Same has been taken care of and passed on." What was the informa- 
tion you sent him about the East and the South ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't know. 

The Chairman. That was passed on by him. 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't know. 

The Chairman. You have no recollection of that? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. That was April 12, 1939, and you don't recall what 
took place on April 12, 1939? 



3420 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Have absolutely no recollection of sending- this man 
information to be passed on to the East — to people in the East and 
the West? 

Mr. McWhirter. I do not know that any such was done. 

The Chairman. ''Hope to be in Indianapolis next week." Did you 
see him in Indianapolis the week following April 12? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think he was in Indianapolis with his arm in 
a sling, but I believe that was after May — I mean after the 1st of 
May. 

The Chairman. Do you recall the conversation that took place 
between you and Mr. Campbell on that occasion? 

Mr. McWhirter. He told me he had fallen from a horse and 
broken his arm. 

The Chairman. That is all you talked about — about his accident? 
Nothing was said about this organization he was talking about ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. 

The Chairman. Nothing was said about these reports — plan 1, 2, 
and 3 ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. And nothing was said about the information 
that — I won't say that you sent him, but the information that he 
says that you sent him ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. As he said, "Thanks for the information." 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You don't recall that. Do you recall a letter from 
you to Mr. Campbell, dated April 3, 1939, saying: 

Dear Jim : Am returning the clipping in accordance with your request. Irt 
wliat paper did it appear? 
Sincerely, 

Felix M. McWhieter. 

Do you recall such a letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. In a general way. 

The Chairman. General way? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, 

The Chairman. Well, you did write this letter, didn't you? This 
is your handwriting, your stationery? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is right. He evidently enclosed some clip- 
ping and asked for it to be returned, and it was returned. 

The Chairman. Do you recall what that clipping was about? 

Mr. McWhirter. I do not ; no, sir. 

The Chairman. Have no recollection whatever of that clipping. 
Do you recall a letter of April 1, 1939, from Mr, Campbell to you in 
which he said : 

Dear Feux : The docket was loaded. The information of extreme value for 
the program as arranged at Indianapolis openly. Have a letter from Homer 
that he will he at Indianapolis or Washington from April 3 to around April 
10 or 12, and am enclosing a couple of paragraphs from a letter received today. 
There is no time to quibble, therefore will you please turn the heat on Monday 
as I will not have much time to waste. 
"Very sincerely yours, 

P. S. — Please return the enclosed clipping as I want to use it as source 
of material for a speech. Might be good to show Homer. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3421 

Do you recall any such letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. Only in a general way, yes; the one referred to. 

The Chairman. 'You don't recall ^yhat the couple of paragraphs 
were that he referred to that he sent you ? 

Mr. INIcWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You don't recall whose letter it was he sent you ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't recall he said he sent a letter. 

The Chairman. Said, "Am enclosing a couple of paragraphs from 
letter received today." 

Mr. McAVhirter.' No ; I have no recollection. 

The Chairman. You don't recall anything of that at all? 

Mr. MoWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. And that is April 1, 1939. Do you recall writing 
him on March 20, 1939, and saying: "Dear Jim, the numbers of the 
bills mentioned are H. R. 4905, 4907. 4909. Sincerely Felix"— what 
did these bills refer to ; do you recall now ^ 

Mr. McWhirter. I think the chairman was the author of the bills. 

The Chairman. And you sent him 

Mr. McWhirter (interposing). The numbers. 

Mr. Thomas. What did those bills refer to? 

Mr. MoWihrter. Well, in a general way they had to do with the 
registering of aliens. 

The Chairman. My bills — had to do with deportation of Commu- 
nist aliens, Fascist aliens. 

Mr. Thomas. I see. 

The Chairman. Do you recall receiving a letter from Mr. Camp- 
bell on March 13, 1939, wdien he said : "Dear Felix, I have sent an 
inquiry about the persons requested. Expect to have a reply on it by 
Friday. Am planning on being in Indianapolis by Thursday or 
Friday, at which time I will see you. Have some very interesting^ 
things to discuss. Sincerely, J. E. Campbell" — do you recall any 
such letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. I w'ill have to give the same answers, Mr. Chair- 
man, to the correspondence. I have no specific recollection of any of 
these, of the receipt of any of them. 

The Chairman. You can't recall what inquiry you made? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether or not he saw^ you on 
Thursday or Friday following that letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think not. 

The Chairman. You don't think he did? 

]\Ir. McWhirter. No. 

The Chairman. Do you recall writing Mr. Who is Jack 

Snow? Do you know Jack Snow — John Snow? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir ; never heard the name until yesterday. 

The Chairman. You don't know that he has an organization? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. No nothing whatever about him or any organiza- 
tion he might have? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. I see. Do you know Mr. Fredman, F-r-e-d-m-a-n,. 
of Jersey City ? 

Mr. JNIcWhirter. No, sir. 



3422 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Never heard the name before ? 

JVIr. McWhirter. Not that I recall. 

The Chairman. Did you ever hear of John D.'McGuire? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Never heard the name before? 

Mr. McWhirter. Not that I know of. It is a common name. 

The Chairman. Of course, if you had heard it you probably would 
Tinow now, wouldn't you ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Not necessarily. 

The Chairman. Wouldn't necessarily know. Do you recall writ- 
ing him, writina: Mr. Campbell, on March 11. 1939, in which you said : 
"Dear Campbell : What do you know of Jack Snow, reported to be a 
New York businessmen in the American Jewish League? Also J. 
George Fredman, of Jersey City, and John D. McGuire. The latter 
is reported to have been active in support of the above-mentioned or- 
ganization. Anything you can get pronto will be appreciated. Am 
anxious to get a verbal report. When are you coming up?" Do you 
recall writing any such letter as that ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Not specifically. 

The Chairman. Is that your letter and your handwriting? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What did you mean when you said that you were 
^ery anxious to get a report on this American Jewish League and 
you wanted a verbal report? What did you mean by that? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't know, other than what the letter has, sir. 

The Chairman. You have no recollection now as to why, on March 
11, 1939, you were asking Mr. CaniDbell for this information with 
reference to these people and this league ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, unquestionably the matter was up, or J 
wouldn't have written the letter. 

The Chairman. The matter was up? 

Mr. JMcWhirter. Sure. 

The Chairman. How was it up — in connection with your activities? 

Mr. McWhirter. There is all sorts of imposters around. There 
are friends of every faith have their impostors. All of them have. 

The Chairman. Well, what did impostors have to do with your try- 
ing to get this information ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I have no recollection. 

The Chairman. You don't know why you wrote the letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You don't now recall any of the names? 

Mr. McWhirter. I hadn't recalled them until you just read it. 

The Chairman. Now, since I have read the letter, do you recall who 
these people were? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. I undoubtedly was writing the letter 
at the request of someone who wanted some information, but I have 
no recollection of it. 

The Cttair^nian. You don't know anything in the world about it? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. Wliat is the date of the letter ? 

The Chairman. March 11, 1939. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, the witness certainly ought to be able 
to recall something about the letter. He's gone all through his testi- 
mony dodging the questions and not answering the questions the way 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3423 

the committee would like to have, and I would insist that he answer 
specifically in reoard to the letter because j^ou certainly can't tell mo 
that he doesn't recall those names after having written the letter only 
2 months ago. 

The Chairiman, You still say that you don't recall ? 

Mr. McAVhirter. I testified the truth, sir. 

The Chairman. Any questions in that respect any of you gentle- 
men want to ask ? 

Mr. Healey. Mr. McWhirter. that letter was only dated 2 months 
ago, and you can't tell this connnittee the specific things you refer to 
in that letter, even though it's only 2 months old; is that correct? 

Mr. McWhirter. ]\Iy testimony answers your question. When the 
chairman asked me if I knew a man named Snow, I answered I did 
not. I have no recollection of ever having dictated a letter with the 
name Snow in it, but the letter is there with the name in it. 

JVIr. Healey. You wrote that letter ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

Mr. Healey. You don't deny that ? 

Mr. IMcWhirter. Of course not. 

Mr. Healey. And you address this man as "Dear Campbell." and 
signed it "Felix." That is correct, isn't it — over the typewritten 
signature you have written in handwriting "Felix," your first name? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

Mr. Healey. You were on a degree of intimacy with your corre- 
spondent, weren't you? I mean you had a very intimate salutation 
to your letter and you have signed it with j'our first name, which indi- 
cates that you were on a very, very close, intimate basis with him — 
had a close, intimate relationship with him. 

Mr. McWhirter. It may indicate that to you, sir. 

Mr. Healey. That is fair to assume? 

Mr. McWhirter. It is fair if you wish to assume it that way. I 
have signed thousands of letters with my first name. 

Mr. Healey. Well, all through your correspondence, in your rela- 
tionship with this man, the letters at least indicate that there was a 
very high degree of friendship with Campbell. 

]Mr. McWhirter. Well, I liave testified that I felt friendly toward 
him. 

Mr. Healey. Now. did you know what his source of livelihood was? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Healey. Did you ever inquire what his livelihood was? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir; it was a mere assumption. 

Mr. Healey. You never thought, as a banker — you never thought 
to inquire of him what his livelihood was ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Had he approached me for a loan, perhaps I 
would have made considerable inquiry. 

Mr. Healey. But you had all of these letters over a period of time,, 
and it never occurred to you to ascertain how he was living, how he 
was making his livelihood ? 

Ml-. McWhirter. No. He was well introduced in Indianapolis. 1 
think we was living at Evansville at the time he was introduced in 
IndiaLapolis some 9 years ago. 

Mr. Healey. Did you know "Uncle Dudley,'' the man he referred te- 
as "Uncle Dudley" and "Uncle," Mr. Gilbert, of New York? 

Mr. McWhirter. I testified I had seen him on three occasions. 



111^ on 



3424 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Healet. Had seen him on three occasions ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Only had siglit of him on three occasions. 

Mr. PIealey. Did you know of the type of work that he was carry- 
? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Healey. Did you know he was the author of the so-called music 
scores ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't know it yet. I heard his testimony yester- 
day afternoon, 

Mr. Healey. But you had no idea of the source of information of 
Campbell's bulletins or his "music scores"; you had no idea of the 
source of that information ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. 

Mr. Healey. You w^ant to leave that answer with this committee, 
that you had no idea ? 

Mr. McWhirter. You said "have" or "had" ? 

Mr. HexVley, "Had" — did you have any jjrior to your coming here ? 
Did you have any information or any knowledge of the source of the 
information? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

Mr. Healey. Of Campbell's scores, music scores — ^you did have ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

Mr. Healey. And who was that? 

Mr. McWhirter. The press. 

]\Ir, Healey. You say the press. You believed that he was getting 
this information from the press prior to coming here ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir ; I had my knowledge from the press. 

Mr. VooRHis. Well, you mean since these hearings were started? 

Mr. McWhirter. I mean on Friday morning in our own home 
papers, that w^ere what purported to be copies of correspondence. 

Mr. VooRHis. I think Mr. Healey's question rather refers to before 
anything was done by this committee — prior to the inquiry by this 
connnittee, prior to your coming here, when you received these so- 
called scores or bulletins that Campbell was sending to you at regular 
intervals did you have any idea where he received that information 
from, the source of that information ? 

Mr. McWhirter. In the first place, they were not sent or received, 
as far as I know", at regular intervals. There seems to be an at- 
tempt 

Mr. VooRHis (interposing). Well, you received a great many of 
them. 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

Mr. VooRiiis. Over a period of time you received a great many of 
them, didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. You admit that. 

Mr. McWhirter. I stated it. I don't admit anything on it; I 
stated it. Why should I admit I received something that I stated I 
received ? 

Mr. VooRHis. Well, I think that is a pretty fine line of distinctions 
that you have drawn here. 

Mr. McWhirter. All right. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3425 

Mr. VooRHis. You did say or stated to the committee that you 
received these letters from Campbell, which he referred to as 
^'scores," is that correct? 

Mr. McWhirter. In a general way. 

Mr. VooRHis. Yes; all right. Now my question is did you have 
any idea, did you have any knowledge of the source of information 
that Campbell based those letters on, or those scores on, did you 
have any information — did you have any knowledge of the informa- 
tion that he had, the source of information ? 

Mr. jNIcWhirter. And to which I answered. 

Mr. VooRHis. What was your answer? 

Mr. INIcWhirter. That I read it in the press. 

Mr. VooRHis. Did you know that he had a regular — did you know 
tliat he collaborated with Mr. Gilbert, that Mr. Gilbert was sending 
on information to him which he in turn was transmitting to you? 

Mr. MgWhirter. Did not know the source. 

Mr. VooRHis. Did not know. 

Mr. MgAVhirter. No. 

Mr. VooRHis. All right, you eventually answered my question, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you recall a letter of March 10, 1939, that Mr. 
Campbell wrote you, saying: 

Dear Felix : I have just returned from a trip where I secured some addi- 
tional information that is too hot to write. A copy of letter just written to 
Mr. Capehart is being enclosed, and am now awaiting suggestions on time and 
place of meeting shortl.v after the 14th. I shall look forward to seeing you 
:Soon. Most sincerely yours, J. E. 

Do you recall any- 



Mr. IVIcWhirter. Same answers to your questions on other letters. 

The Chairman. Same general answer, in general, you mean ? 

Mr. MoWhirter. That I probably received the letter. I received 
liundreds of letters from him. 

The Chairman. Well now, what was that additional information 
that was too hot for him to write you? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Did he come to see you in person as he indicated 
lie would in that letter ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think not. 

The Chairman. Well, the letter is dated March 10, 1939. Do you 
have any recollection at all whether he followed that up by telling 
you in person what that hot information was? 

Mr. McAVhirter. I do not, sir. 

The Chairman. On February 4, 1939, there is a letter here from 
Campbell to you : 

Dear Felix : The enclosed reports convince me that a lot of effort had better 
be put forward toward the organization of tiddledywinlis clubs — 

what did you and Mr. Campbell understand by the words "tiddledy- 
winks clubs"? 

Mr, McWhirter. I couldn't answer a question of that kind. I had 
no understanding with Mr. Campbell, 

The Chairman, What did you understand by the use of those 
words ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Nothing, 



3426 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Had no idea what he meant? 

Mr. McWhirter. I made no interpretation of it at all. 

The Chairman. And he never told yon ^Yhat he meant by it? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. 

The Chairman. 

I am leaving on the trip tomorrow, and while it is true we secured some- 
equipment, witli the exception of what you saw take place at Indianapolis there- 
has never been anything further forthcoming or any mention of same. 

What equipment was he talking abont ? 
Mr. McWhirter, I don't know, sir. 
The Chairman. 

However, I'll make you a bet that I get 200 of the Lincoln Day speeches to 
be mailed out of this office, and I am just about of the opinion that we are not 
going to waste a lot of time on talk. It is coordinated action and the carrying 
through of a program that counts. As per your suggestion, I have completed 
the list of committeemen and committeewomen in various sections. 

Did you make a suggestion to him that he prepare a list of the 
committeemen and committeewomen of the Republican Party? 

Mr. McWhirter. I have no such recollection at all. 

The Chairman. Well, do you know whether you made such a sug- 
gestion or not? 

Mr. McWhirter. I do not. 

The Chairman. You can't say? 

Mr. McWhirter. Or why I would. I have no reason to. 

The Chairman. You don't deny making the suggestion? 

Mr. INIcWhirter. No. 

The Chairman. Nor do you affirm it? 

Mr. McWhirter. Neither. 

The Chairman. You just don't remember. And this took place 
February 14, 1939, this letter was written (reading) : 

Of efforts can be — 

Some word is erased here — 



of efforts can be laimched in these sections, but not one damn cent of funds 
which we have for this other work is going to be spent in those sectors when 
we hardly have enough to keep going. 

What did he mean by the fact of the funds that 'Sve have"? 
Mr. McWhirter. I couldn't say. 

The Chairman. Have any idea wliat he meant by that ? 
Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Tlie Chairman. "Any time you want me, I can be readied tlirough 
the office." 

On February 8, 1939, letter from Mr. Cami^bell to you says: 

While in Nashville, I had a long conference with the Americanism chairman of 
the Legion and the department commander of the V. F. W. Say what you 
please, this thing will end in a scrap. Those boys realize it and are going to 
work on the program of club organizations, outlined to you in Indianapolis. 

Did he outline to you in Indianapolis the plan of club organizations 
he is referring to in this letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. Not that I have any specific knowledge of at 
all. 

The Chairman. You don't recall that at all. Here is a man writing 
you, in steady correspondence with you, and says to you that they 
are going forward with the program of the club organizations out- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3427 

lined to you at Indianapolis, and you have no recollection of any 
such club organization being outlined? 

Mr. McWhirter. I will have to answer again, sir. Of course, you 
read the letter not in chronological sequence, but there are dozens and 
dozens of letters — simply what appeared to me to be the oyerzealous 
and earnest desire of a person to propagate an organization. 

The Chairman. Now did you ever suggest to Mr. Campbell that he 
increase his mailing list? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Never made any such suggestion? 

Mr. McWhirter. Not that I recall ; no, sir. 

The Chairman. Then you absolutely deny the statement in the 
letter from Mr. Campbell to Mr. Hannlton dated February 6, 1939, 
when he said : 

While in Indianapolis this past week I had a tallj with our mutual friend, 
Mr. McWhirter, and he suggested that I increase my mailing list, which is being 
■done to a considerable extent. 

You never made that? 

Mr. McAVhirter. I couldn't have anything to do with the author- 
ship of the letter. 

The Chairman. I didn't say that. I am asking you if you made 
the suggestion. 

Mr. ]\IcWhirter. I have no recollection of making any suggestion. 

The Chairman. Have no what? 

Mr. McWhirter. No recollection of making any suggestions on 
increasing any mailing list. 

The Chairman. Well, you don't deny that that is true; you just 
don't have any recollection; is that right? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is right. 

The Chairman. On February 6, 1939, in a letter to you from Mr. 
Campbell he asked you as follows : "Will you please secure for me in 
Indianapolis some one-half dozen large size clear-type maps, as they 
are not available here." Do you recall receiving that request from 
him? 

Mr. MrAViiiRTER. I have to give the same answer, only in a general 
way. 

The Chairman. Do you recall whether or not you ever supplied 
him with the maps? 

Mr. .McWhirter. I certainly did not supply him with anything, 
no mnps, nothing. 

T]ie (.'riAiRMAN. You are certain of that? 

Mr. McWhirter. Oh, yes. 

The Chairman. You know that as a matter of knowledge? 

JVIr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. But you don't know along about the same time 
wliethcr or not you made a suggestion to him to increase his mailing 
list. How is it you can recall one thing so definitely but another 
thing you are vague about, when they occurred along about the 
same time? 

Mr. oNIcAVhirter. I think I am rather vague about all of it. 

The Chairman. I agree with you on that. You have just said 
definitely that you know you didn't supply Mr. Campbell with some 
one-half dozen large-size maps. You made that definite statement? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 



3428 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. But when I asked you whether or not you made 
a suggestion to Mr. Campbell to increase his mailing list, you said 
yo!i didn'i: recall. Now, what I am now addressing to you: How is 
it you can be so positive in one answer and yet be indefinite in 
another answer? 

Mr McWhirter. Well, the answer to one question involved the 
furnisliing of something, the supplying of something. I can be very 
definite about that. I am furnishing and supplying nothing to 
anyone. 

The Chairman. You can be very definite about that? 

Mr. WcWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. But you can't be definite as to whether or not you 
furnished a suggestion? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, no. 

Mr. VooRHis. Mr. McWhirter, you wouldn't include this committee 
in that category? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't understand the question. I might like to. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. McWhirter, is there any reason why 
you don't feel inclined to give this committee the full facts with 
reference to this whole thing? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Any reason wdiy you would withhold any informa- 
tion from this committee ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. And I attempted to ask the chairman 
please to refer to that Moseley speech. That was asked for and it 
was mentioned in my letter, and I would like, in review of the testi- 
mony I heard yesterday, I would like to have the chairman study the 
Moseley speech, and if there is anything in that Moseley speech which 
was referred to in my letter written about I hoped that he would come, 
and so forth, if there is anything in there about racial prejudice I 
will be very much surprised. 

The Chairman. Is that the only Moseley speech you ever read ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You have read them all, haven't you ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't know that I have read them all. The gen- 
eral makes lots of speeches. 

The Chairman. Let's see which ones you have read. 

Mr. McWhirter. The speech which caused me to favor his coming 
to Indianapolis is identified there in my letter. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. Did you read the one he delivered in 
Boston ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't know where it was — somewhere in the 
East. 

The Chairman. You read that, didn't you ? 

Mr. McWhirter. It is identified in the letter, the speech to which 
I refer. 

The Chairman. Did you read the one he delivered at Atlanta, Ga. ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. 

The Chairman. The one he delivered in Indianapolis ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I heard the speech delivered in Indianapolis. 

The Chairman. Did you read — you say you heard the one at In- 
dianapolis, and there wasn't anything in that speech that you ob- 
jected to? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3429 

Mr. McWhiri'er. The chairman is making that statement. 

The Chairman. Well, I thought you just then said that if the chair- 
man would read the speech he made in Indianapolis. 

Mr. McWhirter. I beg your pardon, sir. What I intended to con- 
vey was that the reason as an individual that I had in favoring General 
Moseley appearing on the program in Indianapolis was the speech 
that he had given in the East, which is identified. 

The Chairman. Previously? 

Mr. MoWhirter. Yes, sir; which is identified in my letter wherein 
I hoped the General would bring up representative Republicans, and 
so forth. And in that speech and in no speeches that I had read of 
his or any press dispatches up to that time had I ever heard or seen 
any reference to any racial prejudice. 

The Chairman. Did you hear any reference to any racial prejudice 
in the Indianapolis speech? 

Mr. McAVhirter. I think he stepped over the line in Indianapolis. 

The Chairman. Stepped over the line at the meeting that you 
arranged for? 

Mr. WgWhirter. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you or anyone else repudiate that portion 
of the speech that you thought was stepping over the line? 

Mr. McWhirter. I haven't seconded or repudiated any of his 
speeches. 

The Chairman. Did anyone who had charge of having him there, 
the group you were working with to have him appear, did any of 
them ever repudiate any portion of his speech? 

Mr. MoWhirter. I don't suppose so. A man is entitled to his own 
opinion, you know. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you read the speech of General Moseley which 
was circulated by Mr. William W. Pelley in pamphlet form'? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. What speech was it you said you had read that 
caused you to 

Mr. McWhirter (interposing). The speech in the East. I am not 
certani where, I think the reference is in my letter, my letter to 
Campbell about Moseley. 

Mr. Healey. Was that the one made at the chamber of commerce 
in New York? 

Mr. McWhirter. No ; I think it was— it might be Hartford. The 
letter, my letter is riglit there ; if you will refer to my letter, sir, you 
will see the speech that I refer to, the letter that the chairman read, 
my letter that the chairman read. 

The Chairman. The board of trade of New York. 

Mr. McWhirter. Is that it? Then that was thei speech. 

The Chairman. Noav you made a speech, too, at Indianapolis, 
didn't you? ^ ' 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chakman. You didn't make any speech there at Indianap- 

Mr. McWhirter. No. 

The Chapman. Do you recall a letter dated January 27, 1939 
from you to Mr. Campbell, says: "Dear Jim, -thanks for communica- 
tions. 1 received a similar one with a like reprint. I believe he is 



3430 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

sincere. Sincerely, Felix M. McWhirter" — that is your letter and 
your handwriting? 
]Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What were you talking about in that letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. I presume it was some of these speeches. I don't 
know. 

The Chairman. Some what? 

Mr. McWhirter. I have no specific recollection. 

Mr. Voorhis. What is the date? 

The Chairman. January 27, 1939, 

Do you recall writing a letter on April 10, 1939, to Mr. Campbell — 
first, I will ask you: Who is Robert S. Judge? Do you have any 
recollection of any such person? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. Wlio is he? 

Mr. McWhirter. He is associated with Mr. Bellaski in New York 
City. 

The Chairman. Associated with whom, Mr. Bellaski? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you recall writing Mr. Campbell the following 
letter : "Dear Jim : Please get this word to Dudley at once, Robert S. 
Judge may be reached at his apartment in New York City in the 
evenings — telephone number Gramercy 3-8125 — or at his law office, 
270 Broadway, Worth 2-5430, at any time during the day. He should 
not be contacted at the Seaboard address which I gave Dudley when 
he was here. Sincerely, Felix M. McWhirter" — do you recall writ- 
ing that letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That is your letter, is it? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. What was it that you were so anxious for Mr. 
Campbell to get this information at once to Mr. Dudley — why were 
you? 

Mr. McWhirter. In order that contact might be made between 
Mr. Judge and Mr. Gilbert. 

The Chairman. You wanted a contact to.be made between the two 
of them? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. For what purpose was that contact to be made ? 

Mr. McWhirter. The purpose that I had I am certain of, and that 
is that it would enable a check to be made on some of the origin of 
these purported reports. 

The Chairman. Oh, in other words, you were trying to make a 
check on the origin of some of these reports — is that right? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. That was April 10, 1939 ? 

]\Ir. McWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. I thought you testified previously that you made 
no effort at any time to check on the accuracy of these reports, you 
threw them in the wastebasket. 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, the check would be automatic if they con- 
tacted each other becaifse there was someone situated in the East. I 
am not situated in the East. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3431 

The Chairman. Well, if I recall your testimony — and I want to be 
absolutely fair with you — you testified before that you made no 
effort at any time to check on the accuracy. 

Mr. McWhirter. That is correct. 

The Chairman. Now, as I understand your testimony, the purpose 
of this letter was to enable 

Mr. McWhirter (interposing). Nature to take its course. 

The Chairman. Nature? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes; exactly. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. McWhirter, do you allow Nature to take its course 
when payments come due on any of the notes in your bank? 

Mr. McWhirter. We always make an allowance for that. 

Mr. Thomas. But you do more than just allow Nature to take its 
course. That is all. 

The Chairman. AVell, what caused you to want this contact to be 
made about the accuracy of the reports? What had arisen prior to 
April 10, the date you wrote this letter, that caused you to' want 
to check up on these reports ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I can give you the statement, if you wish it. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. McWhirter. All right. Shortly after the November election 
the seaboard bureau was emploj^ed by the Indiana Republican State 
central conmiittee to make investigations in Indiana in reference to 
the election of the United States Senator. The person that made that 
investigation was the person mentioned here. During the time that 
he was in Indiana I became acquainted with him. I met him in 
Indianapolis at a club, Columbia Club, about this time, the time of 
this letter — that is, within a few days back of that — and I told him by 
inference, without mentioning names or describing events, of what 
purported to be emanating from the East, and elicited from him 
whether or not he would care to meet anyone if I could arrange a 
meeting; and if he could, why, then, he would look into it as he chose 
himself, as an individual, and that is the 

The Chairman (interposing). In other words, you told Mr. Judge 
the contents of some of these reports that you had been receiving'^ 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir; I just did not say that. 

The Chairman. Well, what did you tell him with reference to the 
reports ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Enough in a general way to let him understand 
that there was emanating from New York City, from some source, 
some fantastic reports; that I thought he would be interested in seek- 
ing further information on those. 

The Chairman. So you were mistaken in all your previous testi- 
mony when you said you made no effort to check up on it? 

Mr. McWhirter. I am not checking up. 

The Chairman. And didn't make efforts to expose it. 

Mr. McWhirter. That was over in his home, not mine. 

The Chairman. Well, but your object in talking to Mr. Judge and 
in writing the letter was to have Mr. Judge check up on the accuracy 
of tliis thing — wasn't that your object ? 

Mr. McWhirter. If Mr. Judge pleased to. 

The Chairman. If he saw fit ? 

Mr. McWhirter. That was up to him ; yes. 

94931— 39— vol. 5 17 



3432 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Tlie Chairman^. It was a matter of indifference to you what he did ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. But you were the one who first talked to him about 
the reports, about the reports emanating from New York, in a general 
way ; isn't that right ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes ; that is right. 

Tlie Chairman. Everything was in a very general way? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is right. 

The Chairman. You were the one that brought the matter up in 
your conversation at the club with Mr. Judge, weren't you? 

INIr. jMcWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. He knew nothing about it until you mentioned it? 

Mr. McWhirter. As far as I know, nothing. 

The Chairman. Was he interested in it? 

Mr. INIcWhirter. Not particularly ; in a cursory way. 

The Chairman. How long was that before this letter w^as written? 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, very shortly before? 

The Chairman. Shortly before? 

Mr. JMcWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did he tell you he would like to meet Mr. Gilbert? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't recall he said he would like to. 

The Chairman. Do you recall whether he said he wanted to or 
tvould do it? 

Mr. McWhirter. He was willing to, certainly. 

The Chairman. Willing to meet Mr. Gilbert. Did he tell you he 
tvould check up on it? 

Mr. McWhirter, No. 

The Chairman. What was the purpose of — was anything said 
between you and Mr. Judge as to Mr. Judge's checking up on this 
at all ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. I have had no correspondence with him, 
either. 

The Chairman. I see. You just simply had a very general con- 
versation with him about these reports, and dropped the matter? 

Mr. INIcWhirter. Yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. But, Mr. Chairman, this letter informs Mr. Gilbert 
as to how he can get in touch with Mr. Judge, not Mr. Judge how 
he can net in touch with Mr. Gilbert. 

Mr. ISIcWhirter. I think there had been no contact with Mr, Gil- 
bert, I don't think. 

The Chairman. Here is what you said : "Dear Jim, please get this 
word to Dudley at once." 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, 

The Chairman. You are not getting the word to Mr. Judge, you 
are getting the letter to Mr. Gilbert, pursuant to your conversation 
with Mr. Judge. 

Mr. McWhirter. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, Mr. McWhirter, did you know 
that Mr. Campbell arranged a meeting in New York between Mr. 
Gilbert and Mr. Judge? You didn't know they had been together? 

Mr. INTcWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You didn't know that. 

Mr. Healey. Were you anxious to have that meeting take place? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3433 

Mr. McWhirtek. No, sir. 

Mr. Healey. Your letter seems to indicate that. 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, you can take any sort of interpretation of 
anything that you choose. What I reasoned that to be is this : That 
I may have given Campbell the address of the Seaboard Bureau and 
then when I received this other address that I hastened to give him 
the other address. That is what I assumed 

The Chairman. Why did you tell him he should not be contacted 
at the Seaboard address? Why shouldn't Mr. Gilbert contact Mr. 
Judge at the Seaboard address ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I presume it would be a matter of what one does 
in his own time and what one does in his profession or business time. 
The Seaboard Bureau is his business address. 

Mr. Healey. You were paving the way for that meeting, you were 
anxious apparently to have that meeting take place, were you not? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Healey. You were the instrumentality that was going to bring 
about this meeting. 

Mr. McWhirter. Certainly, certainly. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. McWhirter, in letter dated May 9, 1939, which 
was addressed by Mr. Campbell to Mr. Gilbert in New York, Mr. 
Campbell states as follows: "R. S. J. is definitely a Christian NO, 
but we are advised not to give out too much information until he is 
properly educated. That will be done by degrees, but fairly rapidly." 
"R. S. J.," in his testimony yesterday Mr. Campbell stated he didn't 
recall who that related to. Could that by any chance be Mr. Robert 
S. Judge? 

Mr. McWhirter. They are the initials of that name. 

Mr. Whitley. "Is definitely a Christian NO" — Mr. Campbell 
didn't recall what the "NO" stood for. 

Mr. INIcWhirter. No, sir. I would say he's already educated, 
though. I think he is a well-educated man; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. It was at your instance, as a result of your conver- 
sation with Mr. Judge, that Mr. Campbell and Mr. Gilbert were 
undertaking to educate him ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. But it was through you that they got in touch with 
him? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. Now, did you keep in touch with General Moseley 
in any respect? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You never had any 

Mr. McWhirttj? (interposing). I never met the general, Mr. 
Chairman, until he came to Indianapolis. 

The Chairman. Did you ever make any inquiries with respect to 
him or his activities ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. 

The Chairman. None whatever. Did you ever go out of your way 
to — we will say to try to protect General Moseley in any respect ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Never went out of your way to protect him or to 
find out any more that might be helpful to General Moseley, did you? 



3434 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. McWhirter. My correspondence reflects my entire contact 
with General Moseley. 

The Chairman. The correspondence heretofore read? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Shows your entire contacts with General Moseley ? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is right. 

The Chairman. And that consisted merely of this Indianapolis 
speech ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I have read press reports of his speeches, and I 
read that particular speech we heretofore mentioned. 

The Chairman. And your only contacts with him was the Indian- 
apolis meeting'? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is right, sir. 

The Chairman. Outside of that, you made no effort to furnish 
any information helpful to the general. General Moseley? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. And had nothing else to do with the matter? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Other than reading in the press 

Mr. McAVhirter. That is right. 

The Chairman. Do you recall writing letter April 11, 1939, to Mr. 

James E. Campbell : 

Dear Jim : From reliable information received I understand tliat Moseley is 

being very thoroughly shadowed. 

Sincerely, 

FET.IX McWhirter. 

Is that your letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. Well now, didn't you, as I understand, you just 
said that your only contact was with reference to his Indianapolis 
speech, you never made any effort to get any information or any- 
thing that might assist the General. 

]\rr. McWhirter. That is right. 

The Chairman. Well, you did. 

Mr. McWhirter. Well," I don't so take it. 

The Chairman. You say, "From reliable information received, I 
understand that ISIoseley is being very thoroughly shadowed." From 
whom did vou receive the information you speak of? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't recall, but probably some of these busy- 
bodies that we have around the country — plenty of them. 

The Chairman. Well, you were impressed with it, weren't you, 
when 5' on got the information? 

Mr. McWhirter. I was impressed that much, just to pass it on. 

The Chairman. He was being shadowed? 

Mr. McWhirter. No ; not to warn the General. I didn't say any- 
thing to the General. 

Mr. Healey. Weren't you satisfied he was being shadowed? 

Mr. McWhirter. I was satisfied somebody said he was; that was 
all I was satisfied. 

Mr. Healey. You were then anxious to consign the information to 
someone to consign it to him ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Not anxious. 

Mr. Healey. In other words, you just heard rumors? 

Mr. McWhirter. I just passed it on ; yes. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3435 

Mr. Healey. All you heard were rumors that the General was 
being shadowed? 

Mr. McWhirter. You can call it a rumor; yes. 

The Chairman. What do you call it ? 

Mr. McAVhirter. Well, I call it what I said there. 

The Chairman. Reliable information? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. Well, can j^ou now tell us what that informa- 
tion 

Mr. McWhirter (interposing). No — other than what is in the 
letter. 

The Chairman. Well, this was April 11. Don't you recall what 
reliable information about an incident such as that — if somebod}^ pre- 
sented to you reliable information that General Moseley was being 
shadowed, wouldn't that be sufficient to impress itself upon your mind 
so that you could remember from April 11 to the time of this hearing? 

Mr. ]VIcWhirter. Not if I serviced whatever I received, and I seem 
to have done it — there is the letter. 

The Chairman. But, Mr. INIcWhirter, here is the point : If some- 
one came to you and said, "Now here is some reliable information, 
Mr. McWhirter. I know, and I have got some information right 
here. Here it is" 

Mr. McWhirter. But they never know it; they always think it. 

The Chairman. I know, but you are getting reliable information. 
You are not getting fantastic — that is not a part of the fantastic in- 
formation that you spoke of before, is it ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I have never seen or heard of anything of Gen- 
eral Moseley in these reports that I recall. 

The Chairman. Yes; but you were branding this information as 
reliable information : you are putting your brand of approval upon 
it. Now, that only occurred just a short time ago, and that didn't 
impress itself enough on your mind to cause you to remember what 
was the reliable information that you received? 

Mr. McWhirter. I testified to you before you read the letter that 
I wouldn't have remembered having written that letter if you hadn't 
read it. 

The Chairman. Any recollection whatever? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. Some people see Indians behind every tree. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. You must have seen an Indian behind 
the tree or you wouldn't have gone to the trouble of writing a letter. 

Mr. McWhirter. I didn't write the general a letter. 

The Chairman. You wrote Mr. Campbell, the contact man. Mr. 
Campbell was the contact man all the way through between you and 
others, wasn't he? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You received this great volume of correspondence 
at all times telling of meetings, when he was going to meet you, and 
how the organization was progressing and everything else, and you 
undertake to tell this committee Mr. Campbell wasn't working closely 
with yon on this whole set-up ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Why, of course. 

The Chairman. You say he was not ? 



3436 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. McWhirter. My testimony will show that, all morning. 

The Chairman. Now, what is your position in the intelligence 
service? Do you have any position at all in any Intelligence Serv- 
ice, or did you ever have ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I have none ; no, sir. 

The Chairman. Never have had any position? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Are you a member of the Reserve in any respect? 

Mr. McWhirter. I testified I was a member of the Reserve. 

The Chairman. What Reserve? What is your position? 

Mr. McWhirter. Naval Reserve. 

The Chairman. Naval Reserve? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairi^ean. How long have you been in it ? 

Mr. McWhirter. About 15 years. 

The Chairman. Fifteen years? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Were you ever in active service? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. 

The Chairman. Never were in active service. You have had a great 
deal of contact with the Reserve, the members of the Reserve associ- 
ation, have you not? 

Mr. McAVhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Never have ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I answered what I understood to be a question, 
I had had a great deal of contact with members of the Reserve. My 
answer w^as "No." 

Mr. Healey. You are a lieutenant commander in the Reserve? 

Mr. McWhirter. I testified that; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You are a lieutenant commander in the Naval Re- 
serve, and you are very definite to this committee when you say that 
you have no recollection of what this reliable information was that 
you received along about April 11 ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You must have had in mind what it was on April 
11. 

Mr. McWhirter. Certainly ; there is the letter. 

The Chairman. Since April 11 it has slipped your mind entirely? 

Mr. McWhirter. No; it don't slip. There is no need of trying 
to retain everything that happens in every day in the year. 

The Chairman. Well, would an event such as that naturally be 
remembered when other events were forgotten ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. Oh, we have all been followed around. 
Everybody gets followed around. 

The Chairman. Have you been followed around ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I presume so. I hope so. 

The Chairman. You have no evidence of that fact ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. 

The Chairman. You weren't presuming in this letter; you said 
you had reliable information. 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. I don't pass anything on I think comes 
from a liar. 

Mr. Healey. You are a careful man. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3437 

Mr. McWhirter. Thank you. 

Mr. Healey. You are careful in the adjectives that you use. When 
you characterize this as "reliable" information you must have had 
some information that you thought pretty well of, didn't you, to 
characterize it as "reliable" information, is that right? 

Mr. McWhirter. If you like. 

The Chairman. You have told us all about this that you know; 
jou have nothing to volunteer in the way of information that we 
haven't asked about that w^ould be helpful to this committee in re- 
spect to Campbell's activities and in respect to the part you played 
in it, and so on, and so forth? 

(No answer.) 

The Chairman. We will adjourn until 1 : 30, and have an executive 
session here of the members. Everyone will please be excused until 
1 : 30, and please clear the room. 

(Whereupon, at 12 : 25 p. m., Thursday, May 23, 1939, the hearing 
was recessed until 1 : 30 p. m. the same day.) 

afternoon session 

(The hearing reconvened at 2:20 p. m.) 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

Mr. McWhirter, will you resame the stand. 

Whereupon, Felix McWhirter, the witness on the stand at the time 
of recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows: 

The Chairman. Mr. McWhirter, do you recall a luncheon between 
you and Mr. Campbell the latter part of October 1938 ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No. 

The Chairman. You don't recall any such luncheon ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I do not. 

The Chairman. Do you recall ever having a luncheon with Mr. 
Campbell ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Not particularly. 

The Chairman. You don't recall any particular instance of a 
luncheon; that has escaped your mind entirely? 

Mr. McWhirter. (No response.) 

The Chairman. In the letter from Mr. Campbell, dated November 
1, 1938, to you, he has this to say : 

May I take tins opportunity of thanking you for a most enjoyable luncheon 
last Saturday, and the privilege of being in on the dedication of your armory. 

Do you remember that occasion when you dedicated the armory ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir ; there were 400 ])eople at the luncheon. 

The Chairman. And you don't ever recall having Mr. Campbell 
there? 

Mr. McWhirter. I wouldn't remember the roster of the fellows 
invited. 

The Chairman. This meeting in Indianapolis, sponsoring General 
Moseley, who all arranged the meeting besides you and Mr. Camp- 
bell? 

Mr. McWhirter. Mr. Campbell had no connection with arranging 
the meeting at Indianapolis. 

The Chairman. Well, he was the man who was supposed to get 
General Moseley, was he not ? 



3438 rx-AMERicAN propaganda activities 

Mr. McWhirter. General Moseley was invited by the State chair- 
man. 

The Chairman. Well, what part did Mr. Campbell play in arrang- 
ing' for General Moseley to be present ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I only know what he was requested to do, I do 
not know what he did. 

The Chairman. What did yon request him to do? 

Mr. McWhirter. I requested him to second the invitation and also 
in the letter, which you were kind enough to read, to indicate to the 
general the purposes of the meeting. 

The Chairman. Name some of the people who arranged for Gen- 
eral Moseley to be present at Indianapolis? Was your State chair- 
man of the Republican Party one of them that participated ? 

Mr. McWiHRTER. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Bobbin? 

Mr. ISIcWhtrter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did he join in extending the invitation to General 
Moseley ? 

Mr. McWhirter. He extended the invitation. 

The Chairman. He extended it in behalf of the Republican 
organization ? 

Mr. INIcWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chair:man. I see. Did you ever talk to Mr. Campbell on long 
distance that you recall? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't recall, other than the correspondence in- 
dicated that I would contact him by wire to hear whether or not 
General Moseley would accept. 

The Ciiair:man. Did the correspondence indicate that? 

Mr. McWhirter. This morning it indicated that I would be 
calling him. 

The Chairman, That you would be calling him to find out of Gen- 
eral Moseley would accept the invitation. That would be about — 
let's see, that meeting was what time? 

Mr. McWhirter. Right at the latter part of December. 

The Chairman. The latter part of December 1938? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. When you had this meeting ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you recall sending liim a telegram — what was 
the date of that Indianapolis meeting? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think it w^as the 28tli or 29th of December, 
between Christmas and New Year. 

The Chairman. The 28th or 29th of December? 

Mr. McWhirtor. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you recall sending him a telegram on Decem- 
ber 15, 1938, and is this the telegram which you are talking about, 
which says: 

Call me tonight or early tomorrow, Lincoln 6412 or Harrison 1743. 

Felix McWhirter. 
Is that the telegram that you sent ? 

Mr. McWhirter. It may have been; I have no definite memory 
of it. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3439 

The Chaibman. You have no memory of that telegram? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir, 

Tlie Chairman. You don't even remember that you sent such a 
telegram ? 

Mr, MoWhirter, I would not have remembered it, had you not 
refreshed my memory. 

The Chairman, You now remember it after your memory has been 
refreshed ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I accept it. 

The Chairman. I don't want you to accept something you don't 
know about. If you have no recollection of it, you don't want to 
accept something that easily. 

Mr. McWhirter. I wonder if it would be helpful, Mr, Chair- 
man 

The Chairman (interposing) . I am sure you do, but the point I am' 
making is, if you don't remember, Mv. McWhirter. don't accept it. 

Mr. McWhirter. I wonder if it might be helpful if I might make 
a little statement to the committee. 

I had breakfast, brunch, as they call it, after the adjournment, and 
in making a mental recapitulation of the trend of the session this 
morning, I am constrained to believe that in my own desire to recog- 
nize, as I do, the high purposes of the intention of the committee, 
and on being confronted with what I probablj^ mistook as an attitude 
of prosecution, we will call it, although that is not a good word, but 
we Avill call it that, in the opening of the session the merest identifica- 
tion of myself was placed on the record. 

I naturally have no desire to involve any organization of any type 
in anything that is extraneous to the object and subject of today. 

I couldn't have lived 33 years at the one address — that is, the busi- 
ness address, 130 East Market Street — without having had consid- 
erable contact with people, and I have been there 33 years next month. 

At one time this morning there was a question of political service 
of some kind, official political service. I didn't indicate, I was think- 
ing in the "now," I didn't indicate that I had served 4 years in an 
onerous political job in Indianapolis as a member of the board of 
public safety, from the years 1918 to 1922, in a so-called clean-up 
administration. 

My interest in subversive activities or un-American activities or 
pro-Americanism, whatever it might be termed, certainly dates from 
that time, and prior. 

In these 33 jeavs I have been identified, as one would in any com- 
munity, with the community affairs. I have been a member of the 
Navy League all these years and am at present on the board. I am 
on the board of the Red Cross out there, on the executive committee; 
on the day nursery, treasurer of the Marion County Organization to 
Combat Paralysis; a member of the State committee on the President 
Roosevelt Library Building; and numerous other things that one 
becomes connected with when they are leading a quasi-public life; 
also, a member of the national chamber for a long time, about 15 
years on the board, and vice president for several years; a member 
of the committee on national defense. Our publications have been 
forward. I think the conunittee is familiar with them. 



3440 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

So I came do^Yn here and am here with a desire to be helpful ta 
these high purposes that this committee has, and I am glad there is 
such a committee; I was glad when we had Avhat was known as the 
McCormick committee. I have dealt all my life with people ; I would 
consider any anti-Semitism or any other anti-race, anti-creed, or anti- 
color as anti- or un-American, just as I did back in the thriving days, 
in Indiana of the K. K. K. 

Now, it would be only natural, I submit, that with that general 
background of mine which you gentlemen had no reason to know, 
that I might sit here as I did this morning, and appear to be unwilling 
to cooperate with the members of the committee in the trend that 
these questions took. I have no patience with "isms" of any kind 
whatever. I think we have room for all of us in this country that 
want to be citizens of this country, and I have very little, very little 
concern about the projection of our present form of government — it 
will continue right along. I know of no one that wants war, either 
foreign war or civil war. 

I hope I haven't misused the time of the committee in making that 
statement, but in taking my lunch over here I was trying to make 
some little recapitulation on this morning, and that is the reason for 
that statement. 

I hesitate to mention the names of these aifairs, and there are 
numerous other ones. I have raised money for the Near East Kelief,, 
as treasurer of that; and when you are in that nefarious business that 
I am in, you get hooked with a great many treasurerships and a great 
many other so-called "do good" organizations. 

The Chairman. May I say that there is no disposition on the part 
of this committee not to be fair to witnesses. That is the reason we 
permitted you to make your statement. We are not here to prosecute 
or persecute anyone. All we want is to get at the facts. When any- 
one comes to us and tells us the truth ancl is frank, and is not evasive^ 
trying to hide and conceal, then we appreciate that fact. But when 
any man, no matter who he is, comes before this committee and under- 
takes to conceal information that we are seeking to obtain, not for 
any personal curiosity of our own, but in the discharge of our duties, 
naturally we feel that that individual has the wrong attitude about it. 

So there is no disposition on our part to be unfair to any witness 
who appears here. 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. McWhirter. I a]i]ireciate the statement you make 
for the reason that this morning I felt that you were not frank in 
your answers. Now that we have a clear understanding of the situ- 
ation, I wonder if you would clarify one letter that I can't quite get 
out of my mind, and that is the letter in which you wanted to know 
for your own information whether or not Mrs. Hull has Jewish blood, 
and what Jewish connections Mr. Landou and Mr. William Allen 
White might have. To a man to whom "isms" don't mean anything, 
what would be your interest in that ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, may we assume in answering it that there 
are almost myriads — in many instances built around the bread and 
butter desire of a person, and in some instances not — ^but there are 
almost myriads of organizations in the horning all the time. Now 
and then you get hooked between one or two, where they have had 
considerable experience in their way, and they may belong to my 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 344I 

cliiirch or your church or belono: to no church or anything else. When- 
ever those persons can fasten themselves onto people, tliey do, and if 
they fasten themselves onto someone and that person could have been 
infoi-med, it might save later eml)arrassnient. That would be the 
broadest and most definite answer that I could give. 

Mr. Dempset. I will say that it is very broad. 

Mr. McWhirter. I testified this morning, I think, that that was 
in a publication; I don't mean the press. I think it was in some 
of these weekly or monthly letters that are put around. 

Mr. Dempset. I think I have seen one reference to that, but I had 
no curiosity about it; as far as I was concerned, it didn't mean any 
thing or make any difference to me as to what blood a person might 
have; it is what that blood does or what the person does. And I 
was quite astounded so see this letter over your signature, wanting 
that information, and especially asking a man for it, a man concern- 
ing whom you had definite knowledge that he was concerning liim- 
self primarily with the dissemination of vile statements, with no 
foundation of truth. 

Mr. McWhirter. My dear sir, I can't accept the latter part of your 
statement. 

Mr. Dempset. Do you think they were true ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir; the latter part of your statement was 
that I had definite knowledge of someone disseminating vile state- 
ments. 

Mr. Dempset. You were on the mailing list of Mr. Campbell and 
obtained those reports and so stated here under oath. Now I have 
read some of the reports. They had no basis in fact or truth, and 
they were the most radical statements, ill-founded, that I have ever 
read, and yet you go to that particular person, and in addition to 
that you recommend him to Mr. Hamilton as being a dependable 
person. 

The Chairman. May I explain this to further clarify the matter? 

Here we have before us, you say that your disposition is now that 
you want to be frank with the committee, is that right, you want to 
be absolutely frank with the committee ? 

Mr. McWhirter. My disposition is the same as it was before I left 
home; that is, that I do want to be helpful to the committee in its 
purposes. 

The Chairman. Oh, I understood you to say that this morning you 
were laboring under some idea that there was a hostility toward you? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't believe I used those words. 

The Chairman. Anyway, if I can make this clear, here is a man 
by the name of Campbell who has had considerable correspondence 
with you ; you have written him 

Mr. McWhirter. He has written me considerable letters. 

The Chairman. He has written you considerable letters; you have 
written him ; you have been in personal touch with him upon several 
occasions at least — you admit that much. He sent you reports of a 
revolutionary nature. Mr. Campbell admits that he favored the es- 
tablishment of a military court to take charge of the Federal Gov- 
ernment and the 48 States. He was in touch and in correspondence 
with a man by the name of Gilbert that you know also. We find Mr. 
Gilbert praising Mussolini and Hitler and saying that they have been 



3442 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

persecuted. Can you find any difference between the Communist on 
the one hand who wants to set up some sort of a dictatorship or a 
man like Gilbert or Campbell who go to the other extreme and want 
to set up tlieir type of dictatorship ? Naturally, in view of your con- 
nection in this matter we are interested in knowing fully and frankly 
just how much you knew about the activities of these men, what part 
you played in it, and some explanation as to why you would address 
letters along the same tenor, wanting to know whether these people 
had Semitic blood, something about the American Jewish Congress, 
and then making contacts with Mr. Judge. 

I merely make those statements to you in order that you might have 
at least the idea that I have in mind for seeking to elicit from you a 
frank and full disclosure of this whole matter, if you know any more 
than what you have already disclosed. 

Now, there is nothing in that attitude that constitutes prosecution. 

Mr. McWhirter. I had no previous knowledge, except from what 
portion I could hear in the room yesterday, of any of this which was 
just related, as to Mr. Campbell's testimony. T had never heard any- 
thing of that kind at all. 

The Chairman. You certainly don't approve of it, do you? 

Mv. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You now believe that you pursued the right course 
over a period of years — that is, when these reports reached you and 
you knew the type of material in the reports — that you pursued the 
right course in not bringing that to the attention of the proper author- 
ities, and instead of pursuing that course, referring it to Mr. Judge ? 
Do you think that your course was the proper course ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I didn't refer any reports to Mr. Judge. 

The Chairman. But you arranged for a contact between Mr. Gilbert 
and Mr. Judge ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes; that was after I had met Mr. Gilbert. 

Mr. VooRHis. Well, Mr. McWhiter, this letter that you wrote to IVfr. 
Campbell telling him where Mr. Gilbert could get in touch with Mr. 
Judge, as I recall it, in that letter you referred to Mr. Gilbert as 
"Dudley." Now, it looks to me as though there was more than a pass- 
ing interest in these reports, judging from that, and, as I understood 
it, you testified this morning that you had no knowledge of the source 
of those reports whatsoever until it came out in the press after this 
committee started hearings, and yet this letter was written a long time 
before that, in which you put Mr. Judge in contact witli the very man 
who was the source of these reports — namely, Mr. Gilbert. 

Mr. McWhirter. I understood from the press that there was one 
Rice, purporting to be a waiter, who was the source of the reports. 

Mr. VooRiiis. That is correct; but wdiat you meant was, then, that 
you did know about Mr. Gilbert before, but you didn't know where 
Mr. Gilbert got his information? 

Mr. McWhirter. I testified I had seen Mr. Gilbert on three occa- 
sions, the first of which was in June. It would be 2 years next month. 

Mr. VooRHis. You did. 

Mr. McWhirter. I knew he was a friend of Mr. Campbell. I didn't 
know any reports were emanating through him at that time at all. 

Mr. Voorhis. You didn't? 
• Mr. McWhirter. No. 



I N-AMERICAX rROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3443 

Mr. VooKHis. Then I don't see where yonr testimony comes in where 
you say to put Mr. Judge in touch with Mr. Gilbert and Mr. Gilbert 
in touch with Mr. Judge in order that Mr. Judge might check up on 
the sourco of this information. 

The Chairman. In other words, did you know of Mr. Gilbert's con- 
nection with these reports at all ? 

Mr. McWniRTER. Not until just quite recently. 

The CiiAiRMAx. You didn't know about it at the date that you 
wrote the letter suggesting that ^Mr. Gilbert call Mr. Judge? 

Mr. jMcAYhirter"^ Yes ; I think I did. 

The Chairman. You knew it at that time? 

Mr, IMcWhirter. Yes; just a little bit back, a few weeks ago. 

The Chairman. You testified this morning that the first time you 
knew of any source was after the time the committee started its 
hearings. 

Mr. ^IcWhirter. That is right ; and that source was in the press 
as a Mr. Rice. 

The Chairman. But you did know before you wrote this letter that 
Mr. Gilbert was the man who was making these reports available 
and sending them to Campbell ? 

Mr. jMcWhirter. I don't know it yet, as a matter of fact. 

The Chairman. What did you know, what did you have in mind 
with reference to Mr. Gilbert's connection with the reports when 
you wrote the letter? 

Mv. McWhirter. When he was contacting with Mr. Campbell in 
reference to these reports? 

The Chairman (interposing). Let's see if we can understand each 
other. 

Now you weren't suggesting the contact between Mr. Campbell and 
]Mr. Judge, you were suggesting the contact between INIr. Gilbert and 
Mr. Judge? 

i\Ir. ]\fcWHiRTER. Yes. 

The Chairman. So that ]Mr. Judge could find out about the ac- 
curacv of the reports or check up on them if he saw fit; isn't that 
right ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Mr. Chairman, of course I wouldn't ask anyone 
to agree Avith any reasoning I might have had. But it would seem 
to me just this, that if a man who had been a resident of Indiana, 
as was Campbell; when I first met him he was up from Evansville, 
and a man in whom I had confidence as to his own personal integrity 
and his intentions, that if, finally, when it came about that he was 
receiving word, reports they have been called, from one place, then 
it would be perhaps worth while to let someone else meet this person 
and contact him. 

The Chairman. I understand that; but that stillcloesn't clear up 
the point that I want to clear up, which is simply this. See if we can 
understand each other. 

You didn't know, you said you didn't know, of Gilbert's connec- 
tion with these reports? 

Mr. McWhirter. Until recently. 

The (^hatrman. Until after the committee started its hearings? 

Mr. McWhirter. No ; I don't believe I said that, I am sorry. The 
questions went to source this morning, and as source, I interpret 



3444 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

source to be literally source. The questions now go not to source but 
as to Campbell's source. 

The Chairman. Well, did you know of Gilbert's connection with 
the reports in any respect until there hearings began? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right, now we are getting some place. When 
did you learn of that? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't know; but comparatively recently. 

The Chairman. Who told you of that? How did you happen to 
know of Gilbert's connection with these reports? 

Mr. JNIcWiiiRTER. I think it was on the occasion of Mr. Gilbert and 
]Mr. Campbell being in Indianapolis at the same time and mj' meeting 
them. 

The Chairman. You met Mr. Gilbert and Mr. Campbell in Indian- 
apolis then prior to the time that you wrote this letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think so. 

The Chairman. Well, don't j'OU know that it would be prior to 
that time? 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, as I must say, my business has not been 
witch hunting, I mean it quite seriously, and I am pretty well occu- 
])ied and I can't remember the raft of details of mail and correspond- 
ence, to which I pay not very much particular attention. 

The Chairman. Well, the point I am trying to make is this, that 
on April 10 you wrote to Mr. Campbell and told him to have Mr. 
Gilbert at once get in touch with Robert S. Judge. 

Mr. McWhirter. Does it say to get in touch at once ? 

The Chairman. It says, "Pleas© get this word to Dudley at once." 

Mr. McAVhirter. In other words give the address and telephone 
number. 

The Chairman. It says, "Robert S. Judge may be reached," et 
cetera — you know what the letter is? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Now at the time you wrote that letter you said that your idea 
for writing it was to enable Judge, if he saw fit, to check up on the 
accuracy of these reports, isn't that right? 

Mr. McWhirter. And further, that I had talked to him and asked 
him whether or not he would care to have them talk with him. 

The Chairman. That you had talked to Gilbert? 

Mr. McWhirter. No ; to Judge. 

The Chairman. Wait — ^you talked to Judge first? 

Mr. I^IoWhirter. I am referring to him. 

The Chairman. You testified to that. 

Mr. McWhirter. In other words, I got his permission. 
The Chairman. That is right, in the club, you talked to Judge 
first and found out from him whether or not he cared to have 
Gilbert get in touch with him? 
Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. So you must have known of Gilbert's connection 
with the reports at the time you wrote the letter ? 
Mr. McWhirter. All right. 
The Chairman. Isn't that true ? 

Mr. McWhirter. It is perfectly plausible ; yes ; I have no point to 
make on it at all. Frankly, I don't know what you are driving at. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3445 

The Chairman. I am trying to find out what the facts are; I am 
not driving at anj-thing. I want to know 

Mr, McWhirter (interposing). First, if I may use it, I would get 
youi' permission before I would mention to someone else that they 
might talk to you ; that was the wa.y. And then, on getting it, I would 
give what you might call a conventional address, the only address that 
I had. 

The Chairman. In other words, you met with Mr. Gilbert and Mr. 
Campbell in Indianapolis sometime prior to April 10, 1939 ? 

Mr. McWhirter. They walked into my office ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Sometime prior to April 10, 1939 ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think so. 

The Chairman. That was the first time that you ever knew of Mr. 
Gilbert's connection with these reports; now, are you certain of that? 

Mr. McWhirter. No ; I am not. 

The Chairman. Now, going back beyond that, when was the first 
time that you ever heard 

Mr. McWhirter (interposing). I don't know ; my memory is simply 
this : That there were various stages of the blooming of the informa- 
tion about a Mr. Gilbert. The first stage was no nane, no nickname, 
no anything else, "contact" or "friend," or something. I paid no par- 
ticular attention to it. You have lots of that. Then somewhere 
around or along the line would come an abbreviation, like "Dud." 
That meant nothing to me, and I asked no questions. 

The Chairman. But you had known Mr. Gilbert; didn't you testify 
jou knew him ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No ; I am going back to the beginning. 

The Chairman. Good ; go ahead, sir. 

]Mr. McWhirter. So first you have nothing ; that is, you have "con- 
tact" or "friend" or what not, which means nothing precisely. Later 
you have "Dud." Then you have a "Dudley," and then you have a 
"Gilbert," without them being associated, the two names together, the 
sir and given ; and then finally you have the name. 

Now, as to the dates of that progression, I couldn't attempt to say, 
but that was the progression. 

The Chairman. How long have you known Mr. Gilbert, how many 
years ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I met him first in June of 1937 — two years ago this 
coming June. 

The Chairman. Through Mr. Campbell ? 

Mr. McWhirter (continuing), I think he came in alone to meet 
him ; I think he came into the office first, into the lobby first, and was 
coming to meet Mr. Campbell. 

The Chairman. But prior to that time you had been receiving 
the reports? 

Mr, McWhirter. Yes. 

The Chairman. Prior to the time? 

Mr. McWhirter, Yes. 

The Chairman. Then when you met Mr, Gilbert in June 1937 for 
the first time you found his connection with these reports ? 

Mr, JSIcWhirter, No, sir. 

The Chairman. You didn't at that meeting? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman, Do you recall what took place at that meeting ? 



3446 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. McWiiiRTER. Well, it wasn't a meeting. 

The Chairman. Well, you got together, a meeting is when you sit 
down and get together? 

Mr. MoWhirter. Well, I think he told me of riding the train west 
with two carloads of college graduates, they were going out to do 
C. I. O. organization work, with destination St. Louis. That is the 
only thing that sticks in my memory. 

The Chairman. You remember, then, in June 1937, what took place 
between you and Mr. Gilbert? 

Mr. McWhirter. I remember that much; yes, sir. 

Tlie Chairman. And then when was the next meeting after June 
1937? 

Mr. McWhirter. I couldn't say, but it was one of those transitory 
things, in and out of the lobby. 

The Chairman. But in tlie June meeting he didn't discuss with 
you his American Nationalists movement, did he? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Tlie Chairman. He didn't tell you anything about organizing a 
chapter there in Indianapolis or Indiana? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You never heard of this American Nationalists ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. When was the first time you heard of it? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't know, but I prol3ably 

The Chairman (interposing). How many times did you see Mr. 
Gilbert from June 1937, up until the time you came to Washington 
this time? 

Mr. McWhirter. Including 1937, three times. 

The Chairman. Three times altogether? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is all the times. 

The Chairman. At what meeting of the three times did you first 
learn of Gilbert's connection with the reports? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think I learned through Campbell and not 
through Gilbert. 

The Chairman. Doi you know about what time that was when you 
first had your definite information that Mr. Gilbert was connected 
with thesfe reports? 

Mr. MoWhirter. I do not. 

The Chairman. You have no idea of that? 

Mr. McWhirter. They didn't take on that importance to me that 
would cause me to, the importance that they have within the last 2 
days; no, sir. 

The Chairman. So that you don't recall the circumstances now 
when you first got the information that Mr. Gilbert was connected 
with this? 

Mr. McWhirter. No; I do not. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. McWhirter, you said that you met Mr. Gilbert 
in June 1937? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is my memory. 

Mr. Thomas. That was the first time? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. And you met him on two other occasions since then ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. That is to say, I have seen him on 
those three occasions. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3447 

Mr. Thomas. On those two other occasions, were they in 1937 or 

1938? 

Mr. jNIcWhirter. The middle one, I have no recollection when it 
was, as to that. The last one was recently, not more than a month or 
6 weeks ago. 

Mv. Thomas. After you met Mr. Gilbert in June 1937, and perhaps 
since, did you check up' with any person in New York or any organiza- 
tion in New York to find out 

Mr. McWhirter (interposing). I did not have his name earlier. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you ever hear that it was Gilbert who introduced 
Prince Romanoff to society in New York City? 

Mv. INIcWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. McWhirter, your first meeting with Mr. Camp- 
bell was about June 1937, 1 mean with Mr. Gilbert ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Through Mr. Campbell ? 

ISIr. McWhirter. Yes, sir; as I recall it he walked into the lobby 
and a little while afterward Mr. Campbell walked in and I was intro- 
duced at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. As I recall the testimony of Mr. Gilbert and Mr. 
Campbell, they first started this association which resulted in the dis- 
semination of these reports, the early part of 1937, I believe the 
most exact date which either one of them said was about April or May ; 
so it would ap])ear that you met Mr. Gilbert at least very shortly after 
he and Mr. Campbell had made this arrangement whereby Mr. Gilbert 
was to furnish the information and Mr. Campbell was to disseminate 
it, and you had already received those reports before you met Mr. 
Gilbert? 

Mr. McWhirter. I presume so ; I think so. 

Mr. Whiti.ey. In other words, you met Mr. Gilbert through Mr. 
Campbell very shortly after Mr. Gilbert and Mr. Campbell became 
associated in this movement? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't know, but my memory would be that this 
reporting has been going on for a longer period of time than that, 
maybe not. 

Mr. Healey. Do you recall when you first received these reports 
whether you placed any credence in the reports at all ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I did not. 

Mr. Healey. Did you do anything to cause their dissemination? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Healey. Either by word of mouth or through the mails or 
otherwise ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Healey. You just paid no attention to them at all, is that the 
idea ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, I wouldn't consider it "paid no attention to 
them," but 

Mr. Healey (interposing) . Don't you think the committee is justi- 
fied in forming a contrary opinion in view of the fact that at some 
subsequent time you wrote and asked that a man in Atlanta, Ga., by 
the name of Judge, come in contact with Gilbert or Gilbert get in 
touch or contact with him, and you said your reason for doing that 

94931— 39— vol. 5 18 



3448 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

was to investigate the truth of these reports; that you wanted to 
check up on them? 

]Mr. McWhirter. Well, the gentleman was in New York and not in 
Atlanta, and 

Mr. Healey (interposing). It doesn't matter where he was. 

]Mr. McWhirter, To me it did. Here was a man who had profes- 
sional experience in fact finding, and who was a resident of the same 
connnunity. That was the reason. 

Mr. Healey. The purpose was to check up on these reports ? 

Mr. McWhirter. If he wanted to. 

INIr. Healey. But you suggested that he do it? 

Mr. McWhirter. ISTo, sir. 

Mr. Healey. Indicating, of course, that you must have had, there 
must be some motive for you doing it? 

Mr. McWhirter. No; the motive I attempted to be very clear about 
this morning, and that was simply to give opportunity, if he would 
take it, for him to make his own evalution of what we have called 
"source." 

Mr. Healey. You have some recollection of the contents of these 
reports, haven't you ? 

Mr. McWhirter. In a general way. 

Mr. Healey. And they were very defamatory in their nature against 
certain persons of reputation and standing in their communities? . 

Mr. McWhirter. In the old days we could call it that ; but the press 
reports on me have been defamatory, too. 

Mr. Healey. Let's not quibble about that; they either were or 
weren't. What is your judgment — were they defamatory or not? 

Mr. McWhirter. They were so fantastic that they were not inflama- 
tory, 

Mr. Healey. You have been connected with the Navy for some 15 
years, have you not, as a Reserve officer ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Healey. That is, after the World War? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Healey. You had no active service with the Navy, did you ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Healey. And as a citizen of standing and as an officer in the 
Naval Reserve, it never occurred to you that you ought to communi- 
cate the contents of those reports to any official of the Goveriiment, 
Department of Justice, or the Federal Bureau of Investigation, or 
some other agency of the Government, did it ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Oh, I wouldn't say it never occurred to me. 

Mr. Healey. You never did ? 

Mr. McWhirter. The history of government shows that there was 
a complete stoppage about 1924 of anything that had to do with 
subversion. 

Mr. Healey. But you didn't, as a matter of fact, communicate any 
of this knowledge or this information that you received in these 
reports to any agency of the Government ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No dissemination ; no, sir. 

Mr. Healey. You never called attention to this Dies committee of 
this information which you were receiving from persons who were, 
according to your reports, plotting against the Government? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3449 

Mr. McWhietek. I had a very good idea that this would spend 
itself out or into the Dies conunittee. 

Mr. Healey. But regardless of your idea that these reports were 
fantastic and might spend themselves, you still kept your contact with 
the gentleman who was responsible for the dissemination of them, 
Mr. Campbell? 

Mr. McWhieter. No ; he kept his contact up with me. 

Mr. Healey. But you wrote him several letters? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Healey. After you started to receive these reports? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Healey. And during the time you received them? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Healey. As late as a month ago you still kept up your con- 
tact with Mr. Campbell ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I don't know about a month ago, but whatever 
it shows. 

Mr. Healey. And you thought so well of him that you wrote a 
letter to the chairman of the Republican National Committee in which 
you referred to him as a most dependable man, whose integrity was 
unquestioned. By the way, I would like to ask the reporter to read 
that letter which you wrote to Mr. Hamilton ? 

(Whereupon, the reporter read the letter referred to, as follows: 

NOVEMBEK 22, 1938. 
Mr. John D. M. Hamilton, 

National Chairman, the Republican Committee. 

Washington, D. C. 

Deab John: My good, tried, and proven friend. Jim Campbell, sent this 
letter addressed to yon. to me for forwarding. This I am pleased to do. 

At a time which is mutually convenient to you and Jim, I would like for 
you to set aside an hour and a half. He is dependable. His information is 
precise. You will want it and we can use it for our country's sake. 

I regret the delay in your receiving my wire which went out promptly. 
By tracing it seems that the Postal had been advised by your office to deliver 
it at the Shoreham. 

Am knee deep in jitney collections for the recount. There is wide public 
interest and much detail. 

Mr. Healey. Now, this letter, of course, recalls to your mind that 
you referred to him as your long, tried, and proven friend. You 
asserted that he was most dependable and that he had information 
that was precise and may be used, that would be good for the coiuitry. 
Now, what information did you refer to? 

Mr. McWhirter. I think I said for the sake of the country. 

Mr. Healey. We won't quibble about that, for the sake of the 
country, what information did you refer to? 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, I referred to what has been the subject of 
all of this, and that is the so-called reports, and if you can drag 
anything out in the sunlight, it generally takes care of itself, and 
here was the chairman of the National Republican Committee 

Mr. Healey (interposing). But you said they were most precise, 
indicating that you 

Mr. McWhirter (interposing). They read rather precise to me. 

Mr. Healey (continuing). Indicating that you did place some 
credence in those reports and contradicting your answer that you 
have made, and reiterated, to the effect that you thought they were 



3450 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

fantastic and didn't pay much attention to them. How do you want 
to leave that to the committee and be fair to tlie committee ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, I couldn't accept that interpretation at 
all. 

Mr. Healey. Let's forget about the interpretation. 

Mr. McWhirter. I would be glad to, because it doesn't state my 
intention then or my intentions at any time in my life. 

Here was a chap in whom I had had every reason to have confi- 
dence. Unlike a good many, to speak in the colloquial, I had never 
felt or found any evidence of chiseling, and he didn't seem to be run- 
ning a membersliip ]:)rogram or so much for members or anything of 
that kind, or something for advertising, and, as I indicated before, 
he did come introduced into Indianapolis, well. 

Now, here w^as something that was too procise to fit, and, as the 
Congressman would agree with me, I am sure, here is a person that 
I thought well intentioned, and still think well intentioned, that if 
he could go in to someone — I didn't know who was getting these 
reports ; we have learned here that it was a list of, I think they said,, 
forty-odd, getting them — that if he could go in to someone witli a 
perspective on the situation, that an hour and a half would do the 
job. 

Mr. Healey. You thought they were worthy of the attention of 
the chairman of the Republican National Committee for an hour 
and a half ? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is right; yes, sir. 

Mr. Healey. Now, you didn't believe that those reports might be 
used in a way that would be beneficial for the advancement of the 
Republican Party, did you? 

Mr. McWhirter. Why, of course not. 

Mr. Healey. All right ; you have answered my question. 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. McWhirter, did you think tliat the reports were 
so fantastic that if they could be gotten into the hands of the Repub- 
lican national committeemen that the country might be saved: was 
that your thought? 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, I didn't know that the country was in need 
of being saved. 

Mr. Dempsey. I understood you were doing this for the benefit of 
the country, having him make this contact and having this hour and 
a half conversation with the Republican National Committee. 

Mr. Thomas. Not with the Republican National Committee, but 
with John Hamilton. I think the inference that the Democratic 
member of the committee is making is to smear the Republican Party, 
and that was the inference. We have had 3 days of this. 

The Chairman. Let him answer the question. 

Mr. Dempsey. When I get through I will wait for you to finish. 

Mr. Thomas. You go right ahead, Mr. Dempsey. 

Mr. Dempsey. You wanted this meeting with the chairman of the 
Republican National Committee, Mr. Hamilton, some meeting of an 
hour and a half, in order that he would get these fantastic reports, 
and you say that you did this for the welfare of the country; that is 
what you had in your mind ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Certainly, I did. 

Mr. Dempsey. And you thought, or do you think, that the reports, 
being as fantastic as you say they were, that the Republican national 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3451 

committeemen could do anything for the welfare of the country by 
having this information? 

Mr. McWhirter. I went to a picture show the other night, and it 
was all about a lady 

Mr. Dempsey (interposing). I went to a picture show, too, but I 
don't want to go into that now. 

Mr. McWhirter. It was about a fellow and his wife, and his wife 
thought she would go into grand opera. The wife thought she could 
do grand opera, and she had to have one of these recitals before she 
found she couldn't. 

Mr. Dempsey. You are not comparing that lady to John Hamilton ? 
[Laughter.] 

The Chairman. Do you want your question answered? 

]Mr. Dempsey. Yes. 

The Chairman. Answer his question. 

Mr. jSIcWhirter. All right ; comes this person from southern Indi- 
ana 9 years ago, well introduced, whom I received many letters from 
and have seen over a period of years, whom I still think is well- 
intentioned, who has these reports, and also, as was developed yester- 
day and this morning, who had organization ideas which would im- 
pinge, if you please, on the regular party organization, which is part 
of our form of government. Now, if he could be taken in to sit and 
tell his story and his reasons, and answer whatever questions natu- 
rally would come from Mr. Hamilton, who is the top man in the party, 
then the recital would be over, because Mr. Hamilton unquestionably 
would have told him what you would have told him. 

Mr. De:mpsey. I wouldn't concede that, not for a minute; because 
if Mr. Hamilton would have told him what I would have told him, it 
wouldn't have taken over 10 seconds. 

Mr. IVIcWhirter. But it would have taken longer than 10 seconds 
for you to have heard him. 

Mr. Dempsey. I wouldn't have heard him on the subject you sent 
him there on. 

But I want to ask you this in a serious vein. Isn't it a fact that you 
were somewhat sold that the information contained in the reports 
wras in part true or you wouldn't have sent him there? 

Mr. iNIcWiiiRTER. Xo, sir. 

Mr. Dempsey. You never believed they were true ? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Dempsey. That is a most astounding thing; you hadn't any idea 
that there was any particle of truth in these, and yet you sent in to 
the chairman of the Republican National Committee, who is an ex- 
tremely busy man, with a fairy tale, and asked to take up an hour and 
a half of that man's time in order that he might determine 

Mr. McWhirter (interposing). We are taking up a lot of time 
about the same fairy tale. 

Mr. Deimpsey. You caused it, and if it hadn't been for your activi- 
ties we wouldn't have had to take up so much time. It is your activi- 
ties and your attitude that has caused a lot of that time here, as far 
as I am concerned. 

But I just can't understand a man taking up a busy man's time 
with some fantastic tale that he doesn't believe a particle of himself. 

The Chairman. But, Mr. Dempsey, he said in his letter that it was 
precise information. 



3452 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. VooRHis. I want to ask Mr. McWliirter to put himself in Mr. 
Hamilton's shoes for a moment and to receive the letter that you 
wrote to Mr. Hamilton and to read that letter while Mr. Campbell 
sits there, with these reports, and to read a letter in which you say, 
"Here is a man with precise, accurate information in whom I have 
unlimited confidence" — and then how in the world is Mr. Hamilton 
going to have any protection against the material in these reports 
that Mr. Campbell is going to give him, and isn't it very likely that 
as far as your influence is concerned in the matter, that it is all in 
the direction of Mr. Hamilton believing the reports that Mr. Camp- 
bell brings to him? 

Mr. McWhirter. If that is a question, my answer is "no." 

Mr. Healey. I think I asked you this morning, I don't want to 
repeat, but I think I asked you this morning if you knew the source 
of livclijiood of Campbell, and how he existed, where he obtained 
fund? to travel throughout the country, and do the kind of work 
that you knew he was doing? 

Mr. McWhirter. Since I first met him, he has been engaged in 
this enghieering service. 

Mr. Healey. Engineering service? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

Mr. Healey. But did you know that he had very little funds from 
that particular occupation? 

Mr. McWhirter. I had no information about that. 

Mr. Healey. And as a matter of fact was existing practically on 
the funds that he received from Mr. Gilbert over a period of a year 
or two, that is, for the last couple of years ? 

Mr. McWhirter. I didn't know that. 

Mr. Healey. You didn't know that? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Healey. You attended the Corn Field Conference, didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Healey. And you, of course, were enthused about that con- 
ference as a Republican, as a party man you were enthused over 
that conference, were you not? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

Mr. Healey. And you met Mr. Campbell at that time, out there, 
didn't you? 

Mr. McWhirter. I presume I introduced Mr. Campbell to Mr. 
Hamilton there. 

Mr. Healey. At the Corn Field Conference ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes ; along with probably several hundred others. 

Mr. Healey. Did you know of Campbell's program or idea of 
establishing Republican clubs in 435 congressional districts in the 
country at that time? 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Healey. Did you learn of it subsequently? 

Mr. McWhirter. I hadn't learned of it until I heard this 
testimony. 

Mr. Healey. You said a moment ago that the reason for your re- 
questing the audience for Campbell with Mr. Hamilton, and so 
much time, one reason was that the nature of the work he was doing 
impinged upon the party organization; you just said that a moment 
ago? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3453 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes. 

Mr. Healey. Did you feel that this type of work that Campbell 
was doing, the dissemination of reports of purported conferences and 
plottings of men to overthrow the Government, might in some way tie 
in with the program of your party, and is that the reason or one of the 
reasons that you sent this letter of introduction or tried to arrange 
for this conference with Mr. Hamilton for Campbell? 

Mr. JNIcWhirter. AVell, if that is a question, I would have to answer 
no ; but if you want to know what I had reference to in the previous 
testimony "that you started to talk about, it was simply this — that 
when anyone who has contacts starts to candidate somebody, then 
that is starting in on politics. 

Mv. Healey. AVell, was it your intention in collaboration with 
Campbell to enhance the opportunities of the Republican Party 
through the dissemination of propaganda and the dissemination of 
the reports that Campbell was engaged in ? 

Mr. McAVhirter. No. 

The Chairman. Mr. Thomas, did you Avant to ask some questions? 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. McWhirter. do you know whether Mr. Hamilton 
ever had tliis conference with Mr. Campbell that you referred to in 
your letter? 

Mr. McWhirter. I heard him say yesterday that he did not. 

Mr. Thomas. You heard him say yesterday that he did not ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes ; and I accept that. 

Mr. Thomas. You have no other information that he might have 
had the conference ? 

Mr. McWhirter. AYell, no; I haven't. 

Mr. Thomas. Could you tell me exactly why you wanted Mr. Ham- 
ilton to meet Mr. Campbell? It is not clear in my mind just why you 
wrote this letter. 

Mr. McAA'^hirter. AVell. the first motivation and the natural one 
was that a letter came to me with a request that I pass it on to Mr. 
Hamilton. 

Mr. Thomas. And who sent that letter to you? 

Mr. McAA^hirter. Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Thomas. So he requested the interview ? 

Mr. McAA"Hn{TER. Yes, sir; he requested the passage of that letter. 

Mr. 1'homas. Did you think for one second that Mr. Hamilton, as 
chairman of the Republican National Committee, would be interested 
in these reports that Campbell mailed out and sent out ? 

Mr. McAA^HiRTER. Well, I think he would not be interested in 

Mr. Thomas (interposing). Do you know whether Mr. Hamilton 
ever saw an}" of these reports? 

Mr. McAA^HiRTER. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Thomas. You have been active in the Republican Party over a 
number of years, have you not ? 

Mr. McWhirter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. You have been active in the Republican Part}- in the 
State of Indiana for how many years ? 

Mr. McAA^hirter. AA^ell, I started in the Drum Corps for INIcKinley. 

Mr, Thomas. And hasn't it been your experience over those great 
many years that the Republican Party stood for the very opposite of 
what was in those reports ? 

Mr. McWhirter. It certainly has. 



3454 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chaieman. All right, gentlemen, are there any other ques- 
tions? 

Mr. VooRHis. I want to ask one qnestion if I may. 

I want to ask if certain letters that Mere formerly read — they were 
very short ones — could be read again, just briefly, I want the letter 
of April 11, Mr. McWhirter's letter of April 11, "and one of April 12 
from Mr. Campbell, and one of March 11. 

The Chairman. Here is the letter of April 10 and a letter of April 
11. 

Mr. VooRHis. I just wanted to get something cleared up. 

On April 10, Mr. McWhirter, that is that brief letter about your 
having reliable information that General Moseley is being very thor- 
oughly shadowed. 

Now, as I understood your testimony this morning, you said that 
you didn't recall where that information came from or anything about 
it ; is that right ? 

Mr, McWhirter. That is right ; that is my recollection. 

Mr. Voorhis. Then, as I remember it, there was a letter on April 
12 which was read, from you to Mr. Campbell, in which there was some 
reference to information concerning the East and South, but con- 
cerning which you don't remember what that meant? 

Mr, McWhirter. If you w411 permit me, I don't remember that 
there was any reference to East and South. 

The Chairman. East and West. 

Mr, McWhirter. Or East and West, Have you the letter there? 
I think it was a letter from Mr, Campbell to me, 

Mr. Voorhis. If so, I would like to disregard that. 

Then there is this letter about Jack Snow, J. George Fredman, and 
John D. McGuire, on March 11, and you testified that you didn't 
remember anything about that, or why it was that you wanted that 
information ; is that correct ? 

Mr. McWhirter. That is right; and just prior to that Mr. Dies 
asked me if I knew a Jack Snow, and I had never heard the name 
that I recalled. 

Mr, Voorhis. But this letter indicates that at that time, at least, 
you had some knowledge of him. 

Mr. McWhirter. No, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. Now, what I don't quite understand is that these 
things were only a month or so ago, and I just don't see why you 
can't remember about them. It seems to me that is such a short time 
ago. Now I have gathered the impression, rather, that your ac- 
quaintance with Mr, Campbell is a very casual one, from some of the 
testimony, at least. These letters here certainly are specific and I 
don't quite see why it is that the committee can't find out a little bit 
more about what the specific things were that you had reference to, 
only such a short time ago. I can readily understand how letters 
from Mr. Campbell to you might have been passed over, might not 
have registered, you might not have read them very carefully, getting 
so many as you did; I can readily see how they might not make 
much impression; but your letters to him, particularly asking 
specific information, I should think you would remember, 

Mr. McWhirter. Well, I can state, of course^ the facts. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3455 

The three names that were m that letter I would never have remem- 
bered having had those names in front of me, if my recollection had 
not been refreshed. 

The Chairman. Is there any further evidence or questions? 

(No response.) 

The Chairman. All right; stand aside, Mr. McWhirter. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Now^ are we ready for the next witness, gentlemen ? 

Come around, Mr. Deatherage. 

Mr. Deatherage. Is this a Christian oath I am taking? 

The Chairman. Do you want to be sworn? 

Mr. Deatherage. I want to be sworn. 

The Chairman. Did you ever hear of any other kind of an oath 
except a Christian oath ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I want your assurance that that is what it is. 

The Chairman. My assurance wouldn't add to it, but raise your 
right hand. 

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth- 
ing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Deatherage. I do. 

The Chairman. Have a seat. 

Mr. Deatherage. Thank you. 

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE E. DEATHERAGE, KNIGHTS OF THE WHITE 

CAMELLIA 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Deatherage, let's see if we can under- 
stand each other. You are going to be asked precise questions by 
our counsel. Will you make your answers responsive as you would 
anywhere else? 

Mr. Deatherage. You mean in any other court? 

The Chairman. In any proceeding. 

Mr. Deatherage. Is this an investigation or a court ? 

The Chairman. You have no objection to making your answers 
responsive, do you? 

Mr. Deatherage. I have an objection to making an answer with- 
out presenting my evidence. I am not on trial, Mr. Dies. 

The Chairman. No one contends that, but the rules we are trying' 
to follow are to have the witness answer responsively. You have no 
objection to that? 

Mr. Deatherage. Absolutely, I will tell you the truth as I have 
sworn now, which you say, on a Christian oath, to the best of my 
ability. 

The Chairman. All right ; and you are not going to volunteer in- 
formation that is not asked for? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't know about that. 

Now listen [witness rising] 

The Chairman (interposing). You sit down. 

Mr. Deatherage. You come over here and make me sit down. 

The Chairman. Officers, set him down. 

If we can't haA^e an orderly hearing, we will go into executive ses- 
sion. 



3456 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

We want to be absolutely fair with you. Your name lias been 

Tjrought up 

Mr. Deatherage (interposing). Excuse me a second- 



The Chairman (interposino). Your name has been brought u]3, 
and your correspondence, in this file. In order to accord you a full 
o])]^ortunity to explain these letters and your position, and be abso- 
lutely fair, the committee is according you a ])ublic hearing, but it is 
going to be conducted with decorum and order, and if it can't be con- 
ducted that w^ay the room will be cleared and we will proceed in 
executive session. Do we understand each other? 

Mr. Deatherage. I understand you. Do you understand me? 

The Chairman. All right; proceed. 

Mr. Deatherage. Just a moment 

The Chairman (interposing). You will answer the questions that 
are asked by counsel. 

Mr. Deatherage. May I have an opportunity to make a statement? 

Mr. Whitley. Wliat is your full name ? 

Mr. Deatherage. May I have an opportunity to make a statement 
similar to that made by the other witnesses? 

The Chairman. Not at this time. 

Mr. Deatherage. That is all I want to know. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your full name ? 

INIr. Deatherage. George Edward Deatherage. 

Mr. Whitley, What is your residence address, Mr. Deatherage ? 

Mr. Deatherage. It is College Hill, St. Albans, W. Va. 

Mr. Whitley. Wliat is your business address ? 

Mr. Deatherage. My business address at the moment is the same. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your business or profession? 

Mr. Deatherage. I am a construction superintendent — construction 
engineer. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you actively engaged in that profession at the 
present time ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I am actively engaged in a way in research and 
technical writing. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you working for any organization or individual 
or for yourself? 

Mr. Deatherage. You mean as a means of livelihood? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Deatherage. For myself. 

Mr. Whitley. Working for yourself? 

Mr. DezVtherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Actively engaged in the engineering business? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. How long have you been connected with the organi- 
zation — the Knights of the White Camellia? 

Mr. Deatherage. Since 1934 actively. 

IVIr. Whitley. In what capacity have you been connected with that 
•organization ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I am national commander. 

Mr. Whitley. You are the commander ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You have been the commander since 1934 ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I have. 



I 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3457 

Mr. Whitley. When was the organization organized; when did it 
come into existence ? 

Mr. Deatherage. It came into existence May 1, 1867. 

Mr. Whitley. And on what date w^as it revived ? 

Mr. Deatherage. It was revived — I can't tell you accurately, but 
I can send 3^011 the information for the record. I think it was in 
August 1935. 

Mr. Whitley. Where was it revived? 

Mr. Deatherage. It was chartered under the laws of the State of 
West Virginia — the date I don't recall, offhand. I can supply it 
later. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). And by whom was the organization 
revived, Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Deatherage. Myself and four or five other interested people, 
whose names appear on the charter. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe you stated that the organization was re- 
vived and chartered in the State of West Virginia ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Deatherage, vou have been the national com- 
mander of the organization ever sincei it was revived as such? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, let's make one distinction. You say "re- 
vived" — it might be assumed that the organization had entirely died 
up until that period, which it had not. It was carried forward 
among descendants of the original officers more or less in a social 
way, in a very small social way. They were not active at all. 

Mr. Whitley. But it was not until the incorporation that the or- 
ganization as such came into existence again and began to operate? 

Mr. Deatherage. Until it incorporated? 

Mr. Whitley. Until you had it incorporated and it started in to 
function as an organization. 

Mv. Deatherage. Well, I would say "yes." We might have been 
active a few monthst before, and I think we were very active a few 
months before we actually incoi-porated. 

Mr. Whitley. The national headquarters of the organization then, 
I suppose, is at the present time in St. Albans, W. Va. ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir ; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Where you reside and have your connection with 
the organization? 

]Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Does your organization, Mr. Deatherage, engage in 
the dissemination of anti-racial or anti-religious information? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. It does not? 

Mr. Deather.\ge. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Does your organization enforce or advocate Nazi or 
racist principles of government? 

Mr. Deatherage. No. sir, 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Deatherage, have you ever been in Germany? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir — well, yes; I have; one trip. 

Mr. Whiti.ey. When were you in Germany ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I was in Germany in 1922, over a week end. 

Mr. Whitley. You haven't been there recently ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir. 



3458 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Deatlierage, what has been your association in 
the past with Mr. James E. Campbell, who has been a witness before 
this committee? 

Mr, Deatherage. Do yon want a chronological resume of my asso- 
ciations ? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes; your association with him, especially in con- 
nection with the work of your organization. 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I had no connection with him as far as 
organization was concerned. I did have, as far as subversive activi- 
ties were concerned. 

Mr. Whitley. To what extent was that association? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, when I first met Mr. Campbell, I think 
it was the latter part of 1935, or early 1936; probably it was the first 
part of 1936 as I remember. At that time Mr. Campbell was na- 
tional chairman of the subversive-activities committee of the Ee- 
serve officers. I was introduced to Mr. Campbell by Lt. John E. 
Kelly, of Charleston, W. Va., who at that time was the officer in 
charge of the subversive-activities investigation in that district, and 
knowing that Mr. Campbell had a very wide acquaintance in this 
work — he had a lot of information — I was rather naive about a great 
many things concerning which I have been very much disillusioned, 
so I entered into a more or less liaison with Mr. Campbell, working 
together to discover as many facts about subversive activities as was 
possible, and, as a matter of fact, I traveled with him on some of 
his trips over the United States in which we came into contact with 
various Reserve officers and other interested groups. 

So that contact continued up until probably 2 years ago, for about 
a year, and then Mr. Campbell was in such financial difficulties that 
the President of the United States issued an order to the National 
Reserve officers that they were not to investigate subversive activities. 
That order was passed down through the corps-area commander to 
Lieutenant Colonel Englar, who was at that time in charge of the 
Reserve officers in St. Louis, and all activities w^ere discontinued. 

Mr. Campbell went about trying to make a living. I went about 
my business. That is briefly a resume of just exactly what hap- 
pened. 

Mr. Whitley. You did actually maintain contact and work to- 
gether for a period of approximately a year? 

Mr. Deatherage. Absolutely; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Your letter dated December 11, 1938, addressed to 
Mr. Campbell, Mr. Deatherage, states as follows [reading] : 

Have been wondering where you were and only received yoiu- address wlieu 
yon wrote to the General a few days ago. 

Who does that refer to? 

Mr. Deatherage. General Moseley. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

I was talking ♦^o him last night after he had shown me your reports and 
received his permission to write you about them and other matters in relation 
to the common cause. 

Were you in Atlanta at the time this letter was written ; it doesn't 
show the place? 

Mr. Deatherage. I think I was ; I am fairly certain I was. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3459 

Mr. Whitley. The "reports" you refer to here, were they the re- 
ports that were described as "music scores" ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. And in your conversations with General Moseley he 
had shown you some of those and had given you his permission to 
contact Mr. Campbell? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. You say, "In relation to the common cause." What 
do you refer to there, Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Deatherage. I refer to fighting the world-wide drive, and es- 
pecially the drive the United States, against Jewish communism. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

For the past 2 weeks I have been here with him, assisting in any way that 
I could to get things started. 

Apparently you had been working with General ISIoseley for a 
couple of weeeks. What was the nature of that association and 
work you and General Moseley were doing? 

Mr. Deatherage. The work we were doing was we were discussing 
the possibility of organizing nationally an organization to uphold 
the Constitution of the United States in this Republic, and combat 
subversive activities. 

Mr. Whitley. You were planning to organize on a national scale? 

Mr. Deatherage. We had discussed it ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

He has been besieged since his retirement to take np the leadership of a 
Nation-wide movement — and I think that is where it will end. 

That had to do with reference to your plans and your conversation 
with the general concerning a Nation-wide organization? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that organization to be headed by General 
Moseley t 

]Mr. Deatherage. If we could persuade him; yes; we never have 
been able to do so. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

However, he is just getting his feet under him now — and deciding what 
form the organization will take. 

I arrived just in time to prevent him hooking up with a local gang, the 
contact man who was named Gwiner, past head of the Kavaliers in the Klan — 
who in the final analysis proved to be a front for Jew money — in the person 
of Sam Masall, of Atlanta. A few others of the same nature, shocked him 
into the realization that all patriotic societies are not patriotic by any means. 
Another gang in New York, in the big money, wanted to dictate the policy — 
nothing doing. 

The reference to "Klan" is to the Klu Klux Klan ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I would judge from this that General Moseley had 
had quite a few contacts from various individuals who probably 
were interested in the same type of activity? 

Mr. Deatherage. He had approached — I would put it this way, 
that is actually what happened. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

I also found that Kelly had been in constant contact with him. 



3460 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Will you identify Kelly for us? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is Lt. John E, Kelly, who used to be a 
Reserve officer — I don't know whether he now holds a commission, 
who was active in the Charleston area, he was relieved of his duties in 
charo:e of subversive activities. I don't know what happened to him. 

Mr. Whitley. You make reference here, Mr. Deatherage, to Gwiner 
in the Klan. I believe Mr. Campbell in his testimony, either Mr. 
Campbell or Mr. Gilbert, I am not certain which, stated with refer- 
ence to your organization, that it was, I believe they described it as 
being similar to or the K. K. K. ? 

Mr. Deatherage. If you will permit me, I wall give you in a minute 
just the whole history. 

Mr. Whitley. Of your organization? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; and the Klan as well. 

Mr. Whitley. I don't care about the history of the Klan. 

Mr. Deatherage. I can't give you the history of one, hardly, without 
the other. 

Mr. Whitley. They would interlock ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes ; and it won't take but a minute. 

Mr. Whitley. All right, sir. 

Mr. Deatherage. In 1867, during the reconstruction days, the old 
carpetbagger days, there were several organizations started ; the Klan 
and Knights of the White Camellia. Now, you are familiar with wdiat 
their purpose was. The Knights of the White Camellia were com- 
posed mostly of ex-officers of the Confederate Army. The Klan was 
composed mostly of men who were in the enlisted division. Naturally 
they formed buddies and grouped together. They both had taken their 
orders from General Forrest. After the need for those organizations — ■ 
I want to say that every man below the Mason-Dixon line at one 
time or another either belonged to the Klan or our organization ; that 
is, eliminating a few small outfits like the Palefaces. 

Mr. Whitley. You are going back to the post-war period now ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. When the need for those organizations was 
over, they disbanded or became dormant. In 1915 Simmonds reorgan- 
ized the Klan as a fraternal patriotic organization, and in it took some 
of the ritual of the Knights of the White Camellia and put it in the 
Klan ritual and built himself up a synthetic Klu Klux Klan organiza- 
tion, based on certain principles, which had no connection whatever, as 
far as principles were concerned, with the old Klan in the reconstruc- 
tion days. 

The Knights of the White Camellia lay dormant all the time until 
this Marxist crisis arose and we reorganized it again. 

Mr. Whitley. You deny any affiliation with the Klu Klux Klan ? 

Mr. Deatherage. We have no connection with the Klan. 

Mr. Whitley. No connection whatever? 

Mr, Deatherage. No, 

Mr. Whitley. To continue the letter : 

I also found that Kelly had been in constant contact with him. I gave him part 
of his record as I knew it and then had him write Griffith, etc. 

Who is Griffith? 

Mr. Deatherage. Griffith is — I don't mean he is, he used to be — a 
Reserve officer in the West Virginia area, who was connected with sub- 
versive activities and who was Kelly's immediate superior at the time 
that Kelly, I think, was the chairman of the subversive activities. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3461 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

I gave him part of his record as I liiiew it and then had him write Griffith^ 
etc., tlie dope which, of course, resulted in the truth coming out. 

Tliat means the truth about Kelly? 
INIr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

Your case came up also, as you have been smeared all over the place, the same 
as I. 

Of course, that means Mr. Campbell's case? 
Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 
Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

That was fixed also*, and the general is sold that you have been honest and 
sincere — all of which I also confirmed. 

At the moment, although the general knows the story in general, he does not 
know all the dirty work, and particularly the working of the Jew oriental mind, 
and how they go about by indirect means to gain their ends. He is just such a 
square shooter himself that he cannot stomach or understand how people do these 
things. What I have unraveled for him so far has made him slow up and a little 
suspicious of everyone — as he should be. 

How long did you work \Yith the general down in Atlanta on this 
plan for the setting up of a national organization, Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Deatherage. We never actually got around to making a plan, 
we discussed it. the probabilities. 

Mr. Whitley. For a period of several weeks? 

Mr. Deatherage. I was down there once for about 3 days and then 
again for 2 or 3 weeks. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). 

The general swears that he is going through if it costs him all that he has, 
and it is up to you and I to keep his skirts clean — and from hooking up with a 
gang or persons that will ruin him — which can be easily done as you know. 
We have been through it and we know. That experience must be placed at his 
disposal — fairly, cleanly, not rumor — but actual facts. There has been a lot of 
smearing going on in our own crowd, which now — with things getting down to 
brass tacks — must be cleared up. 

By "getting down to brass tacks" do you mean the situation coming 
to a head, or about to be precipitated ? 
Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Whitley (continuing). 

No doubt you have heard things about me in the past few years, and that 
also must be cleared up. 

I should like you to write me quite frankly of any indecision in your mind — 
putting the card's on the table — all the facts — or if you can have facts that can 
be proven that says that I am not right, I should like you to give them to the 
general. At this stage he must not have anyone around him that he cannot 
trust to the very death. 

You know that I supported the cause with all the cash that I could let loose' 
of— 

By the "cause" you were referring to your organization ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, that and helping Campbell; I helped 
Campbell out financially. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you hear Mr. Campbell's comments with refer- 
ence to you and your organization when he was on the witness standi 
Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Deatherage. I was way back in the room and I could hear him 
just partly. I heard some of it. It was very difficult to hear back 
there. 



3462 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). 

And the only regret that I have is that which went to Kelly. Y(ni know that 
story as well or better than others. Kelly is very active in the East and I can 
give you his connections and location. 

In any case, this thing is coming to a head fast. The general is speaking 
before the New York Board of Trade on the 14th. I sent you a copy of his 
speech with which I helped him. 

Yon helped the general prepare that speech? 
Mr. Deatherage. I did. 
Mr. Whitley (continuing). 

On the inth he will speak with Coughlin in New York — at which time I expect 
all hell to break loose. Coughlin, as you know, has gone after the juice, both 
over the radio and in his paper. 

What is that reference to "juice"? 

Mr. Deatherage. It means Jews, a rather facetious term. 

Mr. WHiTLEf (continuing). 

They will start on the general as soon as he speaks with him — for he too is 
going after them. 

You mean the general is going after the Jews also — that he is going 
to be anti-Semitic? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't understand that term "anti-Semitic." 

Mr. Whitley. Against the Semitic race — opposed to them. 

Mr. Deathekage. Against who? 

Mr. Whitley. The Semitic race. 

Mr. Healey. You mean he is going after the Jews, don't you ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Thank you ; that is exactly what I mean. 

Mr. Healey. You understood the general was going after the Jews ; 
that is what you meant by that letter ? 

Mr. Deatherage. What do you mean by the "Jews" — Jews as a 
whole or part of the Jews ? 

Mr. Whitley. You don't qualify your statement. You say that he 
is going "after the 'Juice.' " 

Mr. Deatherage. That is the record, if you want to interpret it 
that way. 

Mr. Whitley. It is not my interpretation. I was citing your own 
words. 

Mr. Deatherage. I can give you my intention, if that means 
anything. 

Mr. Whitley. I should be very glad to have it. 

Mr. Deatherage. My definition of Jewry, international Jewry, and 
whichever who is honest in this world refers to, is not all of the rank 
and file of Jews as a race, but a minority clique at the top of Jewry, 
in which are identified the international bankers, the very same thing 
which has torn Europe upside down. Now, the small Jew, as we see 
it, is the most oppressed individual, because he is subject to a hierarchy 
from which he can't get from under, and so to say that when you go 
against Jews, the enemy, are communistic Jews, wherever you may 
find them. 

Mr. Whitley. You, I believe, have repeatedly and consistently over 
a period of years, Mr. Deatherage, attacked communism? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Criticized and attacked it in every conceivable 
manner ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3463 

Mr. Deathekage. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever attacked, with the same degree of 
enthusiasm, nazi-ism or fascism? 

Mr. Deatherage. You define nazi-ism as national socialism, or are 
you using it in a colloquial sense? 

Mr. AYhitley. I am using it in the sense in which it is generally 
thought of and referred to in this country as a dictatorship. 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I can't hardly answer your question that 
way. 

Mr. Whitley. What do you mean by Nazi-ism? 

Mr. Deatherage. Nazi-ism to me means just exactly w^hat it is, and 
that is a national socialistic government, that is, well-known and 
accepted principles of national socialism. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you in favor of that or in accord with that prin- 
ciple of government? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You are not ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever attacked it in your writings or in 
your speeches? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You haven't? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever attacked fascism as it is generally 
referred to in this country? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I have a lot of difficulty in imagining any 
one taking seriously what is known as fascism in this country, be- 
cause it is a colloquial term that is used any way to smear any one 
who is anticommunistic, but fascism as it is, the government of a 
corporate state, is an entirely different matter. 

Mr. Healey. Are you for that? 

Mr. Deatherage. I am not, only in this circumstance : If it was a 
choice between either, between communism, which means destruction 
of the Christian religion and the hatred of God, the removal of the 
right to own private property, I will take fascism, which at least 
gives me Christian religion and right to own property, even though 
they might take most of the property away from me. 

Mr. Whitley. But you haven't been actively opposing any at- 
tempts which might have been made on the part of Nazi or Fascist 
groups to attain or to be active in this country, or to obtain follow- 
ers, or to set up organizations to disseminate their principles ? Have 
you actively opposed those groups ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Let me clarify it this way. In the 5 years I 
have been in this work I have never yet come across one single leaf- 
let, booklet, or piece of propaganda of any kind, either from foreign 
German sources or American German sources, which advocated na- 
tional socialism for America or for the changing or destruction of this 
form of government. Now, if such a thing exists, I have never seen 
it. 

Mr. Whitley. You have seen propaganda, though, disseminated 
from those sources? 

Mr. Deatherage. I have seen anti-communistic propaganda and 
have distributed plenty of it myself. 

94931— 39— vol. 5 19 



3464 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. And anti-racial propaganda that some of those 
countries might be interested in? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is an argument as to what you call anti- 
racial. We might have a difference of opinion. 

Mr. Whitley, That is quite possible. 

Mr. Deatherage. I say, I am 47 years old, I went 40 years of my 
life working for people, minding my own business, and having no 
hatred for anybody until this thing came up, and until then I never 
knew that there was such a thing. 

Mr. Whitley. You do have hatred at the present time, though, 
is that it? 

Mr. Deatherage. I have hatred for the Jewish leadership and 
finance that is directing this movement, as they have directed it in 
every country in Europe. I lived in Kussia, you see, I was in 
Kussia, I was in the Asiatic coast in 1919, 1920, and 1921, and I saw 
this aftermath happen, and I lived in London at the time Mr. Hitler 
was getting his start, which was just about the time of the Munich 
putsch in 1932. 

So I saw all of this thing happen before, and when I saw it 
happening to my own people, then is when I started. 

Mr. Whitley. Continuing the letter, Mr. Deatherage : 

All we have worked for all these years is heading up, and I think that it 
is very important that you get here as quick as you can. The general will 
be back here about the 21st, so if you can get here a few days ahead of that, 
we can talk things over — swap information — and be ready for him when he 
arrives. He is leaving tomorrow night — Monday. While in New York he 
will see about the financing and be prepared in his mind as to that. 

Do you know who he was going to see about the financing of this 
Nation-wide organization? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Whitley. That you were colloborating with him on? 

Mr. Deatherage. No. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

and I think sold on the policy that he will have to follow. For many reasons 
you should be on the job, but if you cannot come, drop me a line as to your 
suggestions for national organization. 

I would judge, from the tenor of this letter, that you and Mr. 
Campbell, you had reason at least to believe that you and Mr. Camp- 
bell saw eye to eye on this situation, Mr. Deatherage; I mean the 
letter is written in a sympathetic vein ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't think there has been any material dif- 
ference at any time between Mr. Campbell's ideas and my own. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

The general gave me permission to ask you for the key to your reports. 

Did the general have any idea where these reports were coining 
from or what the source of the reports was, Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't know, I never discussed it with him. 

Mr. Whitley. How many of the music scores, or reports, did you 
see ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Oh, there was a bunch about half an inch thick ; 
there must have been 35 or 40 sheets. 

Mr. Whitley. Was the general impressed with the authenticity of 
those reports? 

Mr. Deatherage. He made no comment. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3465 

Mr. AVhitley. He showed them to you ? 

Mr. Deatheeage, Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. He didn't indicate whether he believed them or not ; 
he didn't indicate what he felt about them? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; he didn't. 

Mr. Whitley. What was your reaction to the reports you were 
inquiring about? 

Mr. Deatherage. You have got Mr. Campbell's files, and if you 
have all of them you will find in there a letter in which I discussed 
the authenticity of those reports. 

]VIr. Whitley. We will get to that in a little while. 

Mr, Deatherage. All right. 

Mr, Whitley (continuing) : 

You refer to monkeys, George, et cetera, et cetera. Am I the George, by any 

means. 

Were you the George referred to? 

Mr. Deatherage. Oh, yes — the way that came about is this : There 
was an excerpt in one of these reports that referred to George and 
some adjective about monkeys, or so forth, and what I wanted to find 
out from Campbell was whether his source in New York for this 
information was not only authentic but whether he referred to me 
directly, because I have been accused of everything down to cradle 
robbing. 

Mr. Whitley (reading) : 

We want to run clown some of the material in the reports and tie it in with 
my dope and his, so it is important that we know just who is who. 

That means your information along the same lines and general's? 
Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 
Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

Also the accuracy of your correspondent must be checked — at least in our 
minds. How positive are you that the dope is right? It is damn important 
that we get after this now. Again — you, like myself, have sacrificed every- 
thing for the cause and now is the time to put across what we have been work- 
ing for. 

That is a national organization headed by a competent person to 
carry on this work? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Instead of a lot of little local groups such as you 
and Mr. Campbell had, you would tie them all together into one big 
federation ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

If you will come right away, we can get together, and between the two of 
us, not only have a hand in making the policy but in protecting the "jeneral 
through our longer experience. Please wire me on receipt of this letter if you 
can get here the latter part of the week. I am staying at 1007 West Peach- 
tree Street, the telephone number of which is Hemock 9796. Bring your con- 
fidential files so that we can check up together. 

This is the time to put the cards on the table and go to town. 

Haven't seen Mike for a couple of years, but understand that he is now in 
Washington. 

To whom are you referring there? 

Mr. Deatherage. Mike Ahern is an Irishman located here in Wash- 
ington. He is a past G-2 man. He was the man that uncovered 



3466 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

the Delaware corporations. He was the man that went over there 
and photostated them and got them out of the files. 

Mr. Whitley. Had he in the past been associated with you in 
any way? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

Haven't seen Mike for a couple of years, but understand that lie is now in 
Washington — having fallen out with Curtis — the mountain woman. 

Mr. Deatherage. That is Mrs. Curtis, of the Women Investors of 
New York. That term has never meant any discourtesy to her. She 
is about 7 feet tall and weighs around 240 pounds. 

Mr. Whitley. Has she been associated with you or any other 
groups ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; I don't know her. 

Mr. Whitley. Has she financed or worked with any of the groups 
that you were interested in ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

He has tried to get in touch with me but I have dodged him until I can talk 
with you in detail. Jim is still going strong. 

Who is Jim? 

Mr. Deatherage. James True. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

Great chap. Pelley has been making strides and I expect to hear in a 
week or so. 

Who do you mean by "Pelley"? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is William Dudley Pelley, of the Silver 
Shirts. 

Mr. Whitley. Asheville, N. C. ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. "And I expect him here in a week or so." Was he 
coming down to join this conference to help set up this organization? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; he was coming down to see me; he is too 
skittish. 

Mr. Whitley. He is afraid to tie up with a big organization? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I think Mr. Pelley would like to have 
charge of it himself. 

Mr. Whitley. He would want to be the head of it if you set up 
a national organization? 

Mr. Deatherage. I think probably. 

The Chairman. That is one trouble you had about getting to- 
gether, they couldn't decide which one ought to head it, is that it ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; I don't think so. I think the main trouble 
was that there was no one appeared on the scene who was big enough 
to inspire confidence. You know us fellows that have been in this 
work have been more or less like the little boy with the long stick, 
poking the hornets' nest, we poke it and run, and cause a lot of 
trouble. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

My best and be sure and wire or call me pronto. 
Cordially, 

Deatherage. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3467 

Before I get into this further correspondence, Mr. Deatherage, I 
would like to ask you a few questions about various individuals and 
organizations that you have cooperated with. I think it will clear 
up some of the future course. 

Mr. Deatherage. I will be glad to give you any information I 
can. 

Mr. Whitley. What have been your associations or contacts with 
Mr. Pelley in the past? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, only just casually in liaison. He was 
working in Maine for the same objectives we were working for. He 
was a rabid anti-Communist worker and he has got a lot of genius 
about doing a great many things, and we helped each other. 

Every organization in the United States helped each other in that 
way. 

Mr. Whitley. A kind of a sympathetic understanding? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Where you could help each other out you did it? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right, I stayed out of his territory 
pretty much and he stayed out of mine. 

Mr. Whitley. What was your territory, Mr. Deatherage ? Did you 
have a certain area you w^orked in primarily? 

Mr. Deatherage. Primarily below the Mason-Dixon line. 

Mr. Whitley. What w^as Mr. Pelley's territory ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, he was all over the country; he jumped 
from one place to another. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he trespass on your territory very much ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Not seriously ; he has gotten down in Texas in the 
last 3 months, and has been raising a lot of fuss. 

Mr. Whitley. What have been your relations or association or 
contacts with Father Coughlin? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, Father Coughlin, I get his paper. I have 
written him a couple of letters to which he hasn't ever replied. You 
see, we are like a pariah, everybody is afraid of us, because they never 
know what we are going to do, and I sized up Mr, Coughlin this way. 
He has got 21,000,000 Catholics in the United States. He doesn't 
need anybody else. He has got 1 out of every 6 votes in America as 
a potential member of his organization. 

Mr. Dempsey. What do you mean that he has 21,000,000 Catholics? 

Mr. Deatherage. I say there are 21,000,000 Catholics. 

Mr. Dempsey. Do you mean they are all his followers? 

Mr. Deatherage. I just said potential followers. 

Now, the way I sized it up is this : If Father Coughlin can get only 
one-quarter of 21,000,000 Catholics together, he doesn't need anybody 
else; he don't need George Deatherage or anybody else, because he 
will take all of you boys and run you otf in a hurry, and he don't 
need to bother with me ; see ? 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Deatherage, insofar as the subject matter of 
speeches and material, et cetera, would you say you have been sym- 
pathetic with Father Coughlin as well as Mr. Pelley, I mean even 
though there was no actual working arrangement or relationship, did 
you exchange material or publications? 

Mr. Deatherage. I have exchanged material with Pelley, never 
with Father Coughlin. 



3468 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr, Whitley. You never exchanged material with him? 

Mr, Deatherage, The greatest point of difference between the two, 
in my associations with tliem, is that I can't concur in Pelley's pro- 
gram of no more hunger, and so forth. I do stand fivesquare on the 
Catholic social-action program, social justice. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, there were some differences on a 
few points in the programs, in some points in the programs, although 
as a whole you approved of the programs ; is that it ? 

Mr. Deatherage, You are talking about Pelley's ? 

Mr, Whitley. Both. 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't think you can hook them up together; 
they are so far apart. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, they do agree on certain phases of their pro- 
grams; do they not? 

Would you say that they do? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I would want to study that before I would 
say. 

Mr. Whiti-ey. Maybe we will get back to that later on in the corre- 
spondence where there are some references to that. 

I wanted to give you an opportunity to make any explanations with 
reference to this corres])onclence that you want to. I don't mean to 
limit you in any way. What have been your associations or contacts 
with Mr. Winrod, Mr. Gerald Winrod, of Kansas; had you any 
contacts witli him? 

Mr. Deatherage. I have corresponded with Winrod and have both 
bought his material for distribution and shot it around the country. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have to buy it or did he give it to you ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Sometimes he would give me a little shot of it, 
but most of it we bought. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know him personally? 

Mr. Deatherage. I never met him personally. 

Mr. Whitley. But you have collaborated to a certain extent by 
correspondence ? 

Mr. Deatherage, As much as I could. 

Mr. Whitley. In your programs? 

Mr. Deatherage. 'JThat is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Does he have more or less of a definite territory, 
such as you and Mr. Pelley have? 

Mr, Deatherage. No; I think you might say that instead of hav- 
ing territory he has a field which is the Protestant Christianity fun- 
damentals. I want to make clear that word "fundamentals" because 
if the Protestant church as a whole was put up on the auction block 
today for 15 cents, I wouldn't give them 7 for it. They have gone 
over to humanism and all of these other "isms." 

Mr. Whitley. But there has been some association or some con- 
tact by correspondence and interchange of literature between you 
and Mr. Winrod? 

Mr. Deatherage. Absolutely. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you sent your literature or showed it to him ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I can't recall all of the details in the office. I 
know for sure that he was on the complimentary list for such pub- 
lications as we put out, but I never spread our material for the rea- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3469 

son that lie had a printing plant of his own and was putting out 10 
times more than we were putting out. 

Mr. Whitley, Do you have your own printing establishment? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I have my own mimeogTaphing and sten- 
ciling and iDhotoprinting establishment. 

Mr. Whitley. ^Vliat regular publications do you put out? 

Mr. Deatherage. None, now. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you put out one? 

Mr. Deatherage. Up until September of last year, and then there 
was so much material on the market, such a flood of it, that I figured 
that there was no use of my putting out a mimeographed bulletin 
when I could get all I wanted throughout the United States, and 
help those fellows that had printing plants. 

Mr. Whitley. So, since then you have just been distributing ma- 
terial you have gotten from other sources? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; there is so much of it I don't have to 
print it. 

Mr. Whitley. What have been your contacts or relations with Mr. 
Christian? 

Mr. Deatherage. I have written Mr. Christian two or three letters, 
and I don't know him personally, I sent him one of my programs 
here 2 or 3 months ago, and he didn't return it, but he sent me back 
a letter in which he expressed an opinion that it would be better in 
the incinerator. So that ended my contact with Mr. Christian. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you receive his literature? 

]\Ir. Deatherage. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Does your program and Mr. Christian's — do they 
coincide in any basic or fundamental points? 

Mr Deatherage By God, I hope not. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you had any contact with Mr. Hariy B. Rand, 
up in Massachusetts — Haverhill, Mass.? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't know Mr. Eand except through corre- 
spondence. I have corresponded with him. I get his publication, 
Destiny. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you sympathetic to Mr. Rand's program or his 
policies as set out in his publication? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I am sympathetic with his basic philosophy 
that the only solution for the Jewish problem is for the Jew to return 
to Christian principles, and that is the basic philosoph}- of his whole 
publication. Mr. Rand is head of what is known as the Anglo-Saxon 
Federation, which has about 4,000,000 members, I think, in the 
United States. 

Mr. Healey. How long has he been operating out of Haverhill, 
Mass.? 

Mr. Deatherage. Not very long ; he used to operate out of Chicago. 

Mr. Healey. He is a carpetbagger, is he, in Massachusetts? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I don't understand the term. 

Mr. Healey. I mean, he packed his bag and came from Illinois to 
MassacJiusetts ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I am not certain of that. I think they changed 
their offices, and when he was made or put in the position of getting 



3470 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

out this publication he probably moved it to where he resided. I 
don't know that for a certainty. 

Mr, Whitley. What has been your contact or association with Mr. 
True? 

Mr. Deatherage.. Well, I have known Jim True probably for 5 
years, and I have worked with him in every possible way I can. 
There isn't anything I wouldn't do for him. 

Mr. Whitley. He puts out the Industrial Control Reports, I 
believe ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. A mimeographed sheet? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes ; it is photo -printed. 

Mr. AVhitley. That is right. 

Do you exchange literature with Mr. True ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I do. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever conferred with him on matters of 
policy? 

Mr. Deatherage. A thousand times ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you conferred with him concerning plans for 
the grouping of all of these various organizations into a Nation-wide 
organization ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Oh, we have discussed that many times ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Edmondson, do you know him? 

Mr, Deatherage. I know him ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you receive his literature, or exchange literature 
with him? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't have literature; I am on the publishing 
end of it; I have got members inside the Communist Party all over 
the United States, and inside of these so-called liberal organizations, 
stooges in the Communist Party, and when I pick up information 
which T figure is valuable and factual, I will then turn it over to him, 

Mr. Whitley. What is Mr. Edmondson's first name ? 

Mr. Deatherage. His name is Robert. 

Mr. Whitley. He is presently in Pennsylvania? 

Mr, Deatherage, That is right. 

Mr, Whitley, He was formerly in New York City? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with Mr. Donald Shea, head of 
the National Gentile League? 

Mr. Deatherage. I met Mr. Shea since these hearings started in 
Washington. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you familiar with his organization? 

Mr. Deatherage. I am to a certain extent. 

Mr. Whitley. And have you received any literature from him? 

Mr. Deatherage, I have in the past; I don't think I got anything 
directly from him, but I got some from their west coast organization, 
California or Oregon. I can look that up and put it in the record. 

Mr. Whitley. Does his literature or his program in any way agree 
with or coincide with your program ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't know what his program is in detail ex- 
cept if he is anti-Communist I am for him, and I assume that that 
is what he is. i 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3471 

Mr. WhitjLEy. What have been your contacts or associations, direct 
or indirect, with Mr. Fritz Kuhn, the head of the German- American 
Bund? 

Mr. Deatherage. I have had no contact with Mr. Kuhn, except I 
take his paper. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you read German? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, I don't; I take it to find out what is going 
on, and I met Mr. Kuhn in New York one time in the Harvard Club — 
a very opportune and likely place for that sort of thing — and I 
talked to him probably a half hour, just on generalities. 

Mr. Whitley. Was there any discussion there of your organiza- 
tion or its objectives? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; I didn't discuss it with him at all. We 
didn't have time to do that. Besides, the bund is not the kind of 
organization that will cooperate with anybody. 

Mr. Whitley. You mean there is no possibility of getting them 
into a Nation-wide organization, or federation? 

Mr. Deatherage. I think there is, if you can get an American 
organization started they will follow it. 

Mr. Whitley. You think if you set up a Nation-wide organiza- 
tion that had the right leader, a competent leader, one who could in- 
spire confidence, like General Moseley, that maybe a lot of these 
organizations that we have referred to here might be willing to join 
in that movement, including possibly 

Mr. Deatherage (interposing). Oh, yes; you could get 500 of them 
overnight if you wanted to. 

May I make a comment, please ? 

The Chairman. You will have a chance to. 

Mr. Deatherage. This chap back here is sneering and smiling, 
and I want to be fair about this thing. 

The Chairman. We would like to have it orderly. There is no 
disposition to be discourteous. 

Mr. Deatherage. I am of a rather nervous disposition and I re- 
sent that. 

The Chairman. Gentlemen, don't sneer at the witness. 

Mr. Deatherage. I am liable to get up and pop him, and I don't 
want to do that. 

The Chairman. Let's go ahead like we are going; you were doing 
very good. 

Mr. Deatherage. I want to be fair. 

The Chairman. That is the right attitude and as long as you as- 
sume that we are not going to have any trouble here. 

Mr. Deatherage. All right. 

Mr. Whitley. Just one other question or two before we get back 
on the correspondence, Mr. Deatherage, and I think the correspond- 
ence will bring out probably most of the questions that I have in 
mind. 

Dj most of these groups with whom you have been in contact, and 
with whom you have collaborated, either personally or by correspond- 
ence, have a certain particular territory that they concentrate on? 

Mr. Deatherage. No. 

Mr. Whitley. I ask you that question because I believe you pre- 
viously mentioned your territory and Mr. Pelley's. 



3472 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, we are probably the largest outfits, and 
that is the reason that the thing has come up. 

Mr. Whitley. Is your own organization a membership organiza- 
tion ? 

Mr. Deatherage. It is. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have chapters located in various parts of 
the country ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. How many chapters do you have, Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Deatherage. When I took my oath of office as commander 
of this organization there is one thing I promised on the value of 
my life never to reveal, and that is the number of members we had, 
the number of posts, and the members, and I am sorry I can't 
answer, and if that is in contempt of court and I have to go to jail, 
I am quite content. 

Mr. Whitley. I am not asking you to identify any members, but 
as to the number of chapters or the number of members I don't see 
where that would hurt anyone. 

Mr. Deatherage. It may not, but that is my oath and I am going 
to stay with it. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that a voluntary oath? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is a compulsory oath. 

Mr. Whitley. That you never reveal any of that information? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right, and that oath is the same as a 
Klansman's oath. 

Mr. Whitley. Does each member of your organization have to 
take a similar oath? 

Mr. Deatherage. He does. 

Mr. Whitley. And it is 100 percent a secret, sub rosa organiza- 
tion as far as the membership is concerned ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. AVhitley. You, as its national commander, are the only one 
who is publicly identified with the organization ; is that correct i 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, it would be rather difficult to answer that. 
The Jews have been watching this thing so much that they have got 
certain fellows identified. But as far as the fellow who comes out 
and sticks his neck out in the open, that is me. 

Mr. Whitley. You are the national commander publicly identified 
as in that position, and with reference to your association with your 
organization ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Official goat; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You mentioned your organization and Mr. Pelley's 
as being the two largest — you wouldn't, for the information of the 
committee, you couldn't possibly even indicate approximately what 
your membership is, I am not asking you to give the exact figures 
if that is against the rules? 

Mr. Deatherage. It is against my oath : I am sorry I can't answer. 

Mr. Whitley. Would you say it is Nation-wide ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, with the exception of the New England 
States, which are so blinking stubborn, we can't do anything with 
them. 

Mr. Whitley. Otherwise in all sections of the country you have 
your local chapters? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3473 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. AVhitley. I will read the reply to your letter, dated December 
13, 1938, at Owensboro, Ky., addressed to Mr. George E. Deatherage, 
1007 West Peach Tree Street, Atlanta, Ga. : 

Dear George: Thanks very much for your special of December 11, which I 
have read with feelings of mixed emotion. First, I want to say that you are 
absolutely right about the general. 

That has to do with praise of General Moseley and your recom- 
mendation of him as the logical man to head this national organi- 
zation ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). 

He is the most square-shooting patriotic American it has ever been my privi- 
lege to know, and if we are worth a damn because of the experience acquired 
in the past few years we will see that he has the advantage of the distilled 
knowledge from that experience. Not only must he have people around him 
who could be trusted to the very death, but he must have individuals who are 
not afraid of facing death if this situation develops as anticipated by our 
internationalist friends. 

Who does "our internationalist friends" mean? 

Mr. Deatherage. International Jew bankers; do you want their 
names ? 

Mr. Whitley. That won't be necessary, Mr. Deatherage. [Contin- 
uing :] 

As you know, I was not only personally smeared, from the standpoint of 
reputation, but I also had a domestic break-up which resulted in Harriett's 
securing a divorce, almost 2 years ago, this directly traceable to friend Mike, 
so you can see there is an element there under which no circumstances can I 
ever be associated with him or have any part of him. 

I withdrew from activities after being slapped down by the B. O. Association, 
and started in to make a living. 

That is the Reserve Officers Association ? 
Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 
Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

I had found that the smearing of people who were being confused by agents 
provocature, by BSS — 

\yiio are"BSS"? 

Mr. Deatherage. British Secret Service 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

and by Gentile fronts had become so great that I dropped all contacts with 
the crowd with which we had worked in the East. 

He is referring to that period of approximately a year when you 
and Mr. Campbell were working together ? 

Mr. Deatherage. He dropped it for 2 years, didn't he? 

Mr. Whitley. He says the crowd with which "we had worked in 
the East." 

Mr. Deatherage. Would you mind reading that again ? 

Mr. Whitley. All right. 

I had found that the smearing of people who were being confused by agents 
provocature, by BSS, and by Gentile fronts had become so great that I dropped 
all contacts with the crowd with which we had worked in the East. 

That means when you and Mr. Campbell were working together ? 
Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 



3474 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

You had been reported as being an agent of Fritz Knhn, and practically 
every one with wliom I had had contact ^ere classified in one way or another 
as being wrong. 

That report that you were agent of Fritz Kuhn, was that incorrect? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, typically, I am a Nazi the minute I begin 
to fight Communism. That is the smear. 

Mr. Dempsey. I don't think you got Mr. Whitley's question. He 
asked you if you were an agent of Fritz Kuhn. You don't mean 
that you are? 

Mr. Deatherage. Me? Hell, no; no, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, if that report is being circulated, 
that is incorrect ? 

Mr. Deatherage, Absolutely. 

Mr. Whitley. Although you have met and discussed to some ex- 
tent your organization and its program? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't know that we discussed the program at 
all. I think I never discussed the program at all. We discussed in- 
ternational communism. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he indicate whether he was sympathetic with 
your organization or the program of your organization during that 
conversation ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I think probably the mere fact that he 
met me and discussed it shows that he was more or less sympathetic 
with every anti-Communist move. You have a liaison, you see, in- 
ternational liaison, anti-Communist, which is exactly similar to the 
international liaison in the League of Nations — associations, and 
you have affiliates all through the United States who are connected 
with the International League of Nations at Geneva. Of course, we 
have the same thing. 

Mr. Whitley. The big problem 

The Chairman (interposing). Right there; \vho directs the inter- 
national — you say you have an international liaison? Wliat is it; 
is there any directing head of it ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; there isn't They are attempting to start 
one now in Italy, but there never has been a real organization. 

The Chairman. Have you ever been in contact with any of the 
international officers of this thing? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, as I say, I have been in contact with this 
one in Italy which just in the last 2 months 

The Chairman (interposing). What is the one in Italy? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, it is called C. U. R.— I don't speak Italian, 
and I can't pronounce it, but it is headed by fellow by the name of 
C-o-l-s-e-c-c-h-i. 

Mr. VooRHis. In other words, there is a kind of a world-wide 
movement ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

The Chairman. Is there one in Germany, too ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right; the one in Germany I wouldn't 
consider as being really international— oh, yes ; I guess I would. 

The Chairman. Have you ever been in contact with that one ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that at Erfurt, Germany? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3475 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the headquarters for the German Minister 
of Propaganda, that is from that lieadquarters that they send out 
material and maintain contacts? 

Mr. Deatheil\ge. It is an international anti-Communist associa- 
tion which holds a yearly congress with delegates from every state. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you receive any literature? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, your organization and Pelley's organization, 
and these other organizations you have described all are loosely affil- 
iated with these international movements; is that right? 

Mr. Deatherage. I wouldn't say affiliated, because there is no such 
thing. 

The Chairman. I don't mean in any precise terms, but I mean 
there is a contact, a liaison, between them ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You exchange literature with them? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You sent them some of your literature? 

Mr. Deatherage. Let me give you a concrete example : 

You have got a fellow who committed suicide yesterday, Ernst 
Toller. He is a Communist member of the Reichstag. He was oyer 
living with Louis B. Mayer, in Hollywood, and setting up the policy 
for left-wing movies. Toller was the man that signed the execution 
order for the women and children in Munich, and he also headed up 
the Third Internationale. 

The Chairman. You don't know; this is just reports and rumors? 

Mr. Deatherage. I have photostats of the order, with his own 
handwriting in which he signed them, and photographs of his own 
house, and I have all the details and documentary evidence. 

Mr. VooRHis. What does he have to do with your movement? 

Mr. Deatherage. He has this to do. Naturally, we are antagonis- 
tic to what we call Communist or left-wing movies that come out of 
Hollywood. We are naturally interested in a man who was directing 
them, directing their policy. Here was an alien that came over to 
the United States, he escaped from a concentration camp in Germany, 
and takes up a very active part in left-wing operations. 

The Chairman. Now, wait a minute. That is not responsive to 
any questions. We are getting 

Mr. Deatherage (interposing). I am citing an example of my 
liaison. 

The Chairman. We are not interested in that. 

Mr. VooRHis. I think we should let him finish. 

Mr. Healey. If he wants to demonstrate how his liaison workg 
out, I think we should hear it. 

The Chairman. The Catholics, for instance, have got a program of 
social decency, and they censor, as everybody knows, the attendance 
at movies. Now, in the same way they have started a program 
through all the Catholic churches to, more or less, if I can use the 
word, censor — I don't know that that is the word — ^but to discourage 
Communist movies or things which encourage communism. 

Mr. VooRHis. What does this have to do with this man's suicide? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I don't think you want me to answer that. 



3476 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. VooRHis. Yes; I do. 

Mr. Deatherage, Do you want me to answer it frankly ? 

Mr. VooRHis. Yes. 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I will tell you. In my opinion this is the 
first of a wave of suicides similar to the ones that you saw happen 
after Germany occupied the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia, be- 
cause the situation in this country now inside is at such a terriffic 
preasure that one more defacing of the Catholic churches in New 
York will mean 750,000 Irislunen going on the rampage. That is 
my personal opinion. 

Mr. VooRHis. You mean you think pressure was brought to bear 
on this man to commit suicide? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; I think he saw that you were going to have 
in this country what he had gone through previously, and he couldn't 
take it. 

Mr. VooRHis. Do you think that would be a good thing if we had 
a wave of suicides like that? 

Mr. DEATHERiVGE. Well, that is a difficult question to answer, to 
ask a man. 

The Chairman. Let's finish this letter in an orderly way. 

Mr. Whitley. Continuing this letter, Mr. Deatherage : 

So I withdrew myself from all of that stage of confusion, came back here 
where one can breathe God's clean air, and tried to reason the only line which 
I will follow, and that is, in a typical American manner, maintain heritage of 
this Repnblic for which our ancestors fought. There is no question but what 
a i50stulate Jewry is responsible for communism, and communism is the cause 
of nazi-lsm and fascism. Therefore, with an engineer's mind I have tried to 
go to the root of the thing in an American way. 

We do not have to adopt Nazi or Fascist methods to eliminate communism. 
Personally, I am in favor of throwing into the sea every damned foreign or 
American agitator who is advocating other than cleaning house in the only 
way that will prove satisfactory and then seeing to it that our democratic 
republic is continued with liberty to the individual and with the principles as 
enumerated in our Constitution. 

Frankly, I say to you that this thing has gone so far that there is only one 
remedy, and that is a military action which will put a military court in 
charge of the United States Federal Government and each State government, 
and let them operate under the Constitution vuitil each State pi-oves themselves 
worthy of the right of self-government, and that be done only by the citizens 
within each State cleaning house and exercising the right of free-born men. 

Do you agree with that last paragraph, Mr. Deatherage? 
Mr. Deatherage. No. You mean about establishing a military 
court? 

Mr. Whitley. He says: 

Frankly, I say to you that this thing has gone so far that there is only 
one remedy, and that is a military action which will put a military court 
in charge of the United States Federal Government. 

In other words, he indicates that now at the present time there is 
only one remedy. My interpretation would be that he means now. 
Will you agree with that procedure or do you think that is sub- 
stantially correct? 

Mr. Deatherage. I am trying to formulate an answer that will 
give you my opinion correctly. 

My opinion is — I don't agree exactly with what he says. I would 
agree in part this way, that this thing in the United States has now 
gone so far, which in my opinion has been proved from what I have 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3477 

seen in Europe and Asia, that if you did put a military court in 
here and chirify this whole thing, you would obviate the necessity 
or the possibility of what has happened in Spain, because we have 
an exactly similar situation. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you think that to the extent of 
making it a temporary proposition, that it might be a good solution ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I say that in my opinion you are going to have, 
in spite of what 10,000 Dies committees can do, you are going to have 
civil disorder. If this civil disorder goes into what I witnessed in 
Russia, with piles of corpses of young children 14 and 15 years old 
as high as this room, I say most any expedient is justified, if it is 
peaceful. 

Mr. Whitley. Would you say, Mr. Campbell, in advocating the 
establishment of a military government, both Federal and State, 
would you say that that was a Fascist principle that he was advocat- 
ing, or that he is advocating a principle that might be along Fascist 
lines ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; I don't think he intended that. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't think he intended that ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; his idea is that the time is over for taking 
pills, and you have got to have a physical operation, so let's pull the 
corpse out and work on it. 

Mr. Whitley. But with those reservations, you would agree with 
that statement, the reservations you stated? 

Mr. Deatherage. I say this, you are going to have trouble. Now, 
how far that trouble is going to go nobody knows. If we can put 
a stopgap into this thing, and prevent it, I would like to see it done. 

Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Deatherage, the more people you can convince 
that that trouble is going to come that you speak of, the more people 
that you will be able to get to go along with your organization; isn't 
that true? 

Mr. Deatherage. I would say "yes." 

Mr. Whitley. Continuing, Mr. Deatherage: 

There is an answer to all of this which I would like to discuss with you, 
and then sit down with the general. But at the present time I am tinancially 
unable to spend the $40 or $50 which a trip to Atlanta would require. If I 
had it, you could expect me down there Friday. I have one client now with 
a new product which we are working very hard. If proper distribution can 
be made of this and one other that I hope to secure, then the revenue from 
these two will be sufficient for me to follow through in my determination to 
see America return to the sound basic principles of constitutional government. 

Mr. Deatherage, the purpose of your trip to Atlanta was to see 
General Moseley? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And you spent several weeks there ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I did. He wasn't in Atlanta all the time. He 
was away and I had to stick around there or else make another trip. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

Irrespective of the cost, however. I expect to stay in this picture and as close 
to it as long as I can. I have one thing left ; that is. a 15-year-old daughter, and 
I'll be damned if I am going to see her have to grow up in a country controlled 
by a gi-oup of Orient-minded atheists who would sabotage everything we be- 
lieve in. 

Relative to the source of any reports, I believe I can show you enough of 
subsequent happenings to prove them correct. You and the general have both 



3478 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

had eiiongli G-2 experience to realize that we cannot expose sources of informa- 
tion which would mean the liquidation of the individual or individuals concerned. 

What was your impression of these reports that you read, that Gen- 
eral Moseley had which he had secured from Mr. Campbell ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I have been trained all my life as an engi- 
neer. I deal with facts, not with theories or assumptions. Therefore^ 
as the letter indicates, my first question was, Has this fellow got the 
correct dope and can he substantiate it ? 

Now, I know I have heard these musical scores for 3 years, not 
through Mr. Campbell but from other sources, mostly in the Reserve 
officers or ex-service men's organizations. There have been some of 
them published and printed. I have, I think, some copies of them. 

Mr. Whitley. Who publishes those, do you know ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't recall ; I recall I do have clippings of pub- 
lications in which at least some of them appeared. But I know this,, 
basically, to bring about the situation that you have in the United 
States, there has got to be people at the top, naturally, because you 
couldn't have this thing without having somebody doing it. Wliether 
those specific individuals that were mentioned were responsible, was 
what I wanted to find out. 

Now, as I see it, unless you get a hold of the waiter, put your hand 
on him, get him down here and sweat him, and find out all about it^ 
you don't know whether they are true or untrue any more than I do. 
And I wouldn't take them as factual evidence until somebody sub- 
stantiated them, 

Mr. Healey. May I inquire right there — I just want to get this 
straightened out. You had heard these reports before you knew that 
Campbell was the source of dissemination of them ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes ; I have heard of them ; just where and under 
what circumstances I can't tell you, but the thought is here [indicat- 
ing forehead], and I know I have heard of them before. 

Mr. Healey. That is in pursuance of your work you had somehow 
or other come in contact with those reports ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Healey. That was prior to your gaining knowledge that Camp- 
bell was the man who was responsible for the dissemination of them? 

Mr. Deatherage. I would say "yes." 

Mr. Healey. When was the first time that you knew Campbell was 
the person who propagated those reports ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I never knew it until General Moseley showed me 
the re]5orts. 

Mr. Healey. That was at the Atlanta meeting? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, 

Mr. Dempsey How many of the reports did the general have when 
he showed them to you ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I didn't count them, they were all clipped together, 
and evidently had all been sent to him at one time. 

Mr. Dempsey. Was each individual report on one sheet or was there 
more than one sheet? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I can't swear that they didn't lap over from 
one page to the n^xt, but they were all typewritten sheets. 

Mr. Dempsey. You wouldn't even know the approximate number 
of reports he had ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3479' 

Mr. Deatherage. Gaefino; from my experience witli tissue sheets^ 
I would say tliere mi^-ht have been 35 or 40 of them. 

Mr. Dempsey. Thirty-five or forty? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Dempsey. Did you think the general was impressed by re- 
taining the copies of the reports ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't think he gave them any thought at alL 

Mr. Dempsey. Why do you suppose he kept them ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, because he was. in the first place, doing this 
work, and he was flooded with correspondence from everybody, and 
he didn't have any office; he had it thrown in a trunk, and he threw 
it all out on the bed and said, "Here; what do you think of this- 
stuff?" 

And I just ran over it and I found, of course, people in there who 
were on the lunatic fringe, and everything else, and I pitched those^ 
to one side, and I tried to guide him as much as I could at the time- 
from getting himself into a jam, associating with people that were 
wrong, but he made no comment to me about the reports. I asked 
him myself; I said, "Do you mind if I write Campbell and ask him 
about the authenticity of these things because if they are true and 
if they can be proven I have got enough dynamite there that I can 
go to Washington, and we will tear every brick down up around 
Connecticut Avenue, but I want to know." 

Mr. Whitley. Your idea was to turn those reports into the offi- 
cial channels, whether it could be used officially? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, no, 

Mr. Whitley. I mean if they were true and you could prove they 
were true? 

Mr. Deatherage. The reason we never turn anything over to offi-^ 
cial channels is because, as Mr. Dies, himself, put in the press 

The Chairman, Wait a moment 

Mr. Deatherage (continuing). No agency — well, pardon me; I say 
that there was no agency in the United States, Mrs. Perkins or the 
Department of Justice, who would cooperate, and why should they 
cooperate with me? That is the reason that all people who liave^ 
information keep away from that. 

The Chairman. Well, it is nearly 5 o'clock. 

Mr. Whitley. I would like to finish this letter. 

The Chairman, Go ahead. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

I have attempted to cover this situation at length, because I feel you are- 
correct and sincere. We learned a lesson from Kelly, and then, my experience 
with Ahern and Spencer, after having met both of them through you, was' 
such that it helped me make the decision which I mentioned in the previous 
paragraphs in this letter. 

Now, I want you to know that I believe in your sincerity and will do all I 
can to assist in outlining a program and working closely with the general. 

He was referring to the program, I assume, that you mentioned 
in your letter? 

Mr, Deatherage. I assume so. 
Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

As you have learned to know and love him, don't forget that in almost every 
State in the United States I know personally other individuals equally a* 

94931— 39— vol. 5 20 



3480 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

loyal. The travesty being — one's financial lacking which prevents a close 
coordination of efforts. 

Again let me say how much I wonld like to be there with you and discuss 
things in detail, but it is just financially impossible at the present time. 
Most cordially and sincerely yours, 

J. E, Campbell, 

P. S. — Please give me answers, if you can, to the following three questions, 
as it is extremely important, because of the source which has inquired. 

1. Is it true that Hull's wife is part or full-blood Semite? 

2. What do you know of Landou's Semitic connections? 

3. What do you know of William Allen White's Semitic connection? 

Why did he make that inquiry of you, Mr. Deatherage, do you 
know ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, because I probably have had more experi- 
ence in research than he has. I have spent 5 years at it. He knew 
that. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you give him the answers? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't recall; I think probably I did. 

Mr. Whitley. I don't find the letter here. 

In other words, he thought 3^011 would be more or less of an au- 
thority on that subject, and he made the reference to you for that 
reason ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right, when I collect evidence I get the 
dope ; I mean I will take either photostats or something else to prove 
it. I don't take any rumors. 

The Chairman". We will now adjourn until 10 o'clock tomorrow 
morning, at a place to be later determined. 

Mr. Deatherage, you will return here at 10 o'clock tomorrow 
morning to resume your testimony. 

Mr. Deatherage. All right. 

(Whereupon, at 4:50 p. m., an adjournment was taken until 
May 24, 1939, at 10 a. m.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



WEDNESDAY, MAY 34, 1939 

House of Representatives, 
Special Committee to Inves- 
tigate Un-American Activities, 

Washington^ D. C. 

The committee met at 10 : 30 a. m., in room 1324, New House Office 
Building, Congressman Martin Dies (chairman) presiding. 

Present: Congressman Martin Dies (chairman), H. Jerry Voorhis, 
and John J. Dempsey. 

Also present : Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order and we will re- 
sume the examination of Mr. Deatherage. 

May I again caution the audience to be silent and desist from con- 
versation so we can have absolute order. Whereupon, George Dea- 
therage, recalled as a witness, having been previously duly sworn, 
testified further as follows: 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Deatherage, will you describe for the com- 
mittee your first contact with Mr. Dudley P. Gilbert, where that was 
and when it was? 

Mr. Deatherage. To my personal kowledge, I never met Mr. Gil- 
bert. I have a very faint recollection of having met him at Newport 
about 1935, but I am not certain of that, that is just a vague recol- 
lection. 

Mr. Whitley. If you have met him at all it was on that occasion ? 

Mr. Deatherage. It was on that occasion, or I was introduced to 
him under an alias, that is, he was going under some other name be- 
sides Dudley Gilbert if I have met him. I have a recollection of 
having corresponded with him, I think. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever have any correspondence with Mr. 
Gilbert? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't have any recollection of ever having any 
correspondence with him except if he went under the alias of Curtis 
in publishing material, then I have had correspondence with him. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you think that possibly some ma- 
terial which you received under the name of Curtis might have been 
from Mr. Gilbert? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; I have that suspicion, I don't know it 
positively. 

Mr. Whitley. What year was it that you received that material ? 

3481 



3482 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Deatherage. I have been receiving material from that source, 
they have never stopped, it is the American Nationalist letters from 
New York. You have probably got copies of them in your files. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the American Nationalists. Inc. ? 

The reason I ask that question is that two or three organizations 
have various combinations of that word "nationalist." 

Mr. Deatherage. I can't tell you for certain. There are two or- 
ganizations in New York, one the American Nationalists, Inc., which 
is not the outfit I am talking about, and then there is another one 
with this name Curtis. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever receive any literature from the Ameri- 
can Nationalists, Inc. ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Are those the ones known as the Nationalist 
Letters ? 

Mr. Whitley. I don't believe they are. 

Mr. Deatherage. Without referring to the files, I can't tell you.. 
My recollection is I have got literature under the name American. 
Nationalist from two different outfits in New York. 

Mr. Whitley. Wliat was the purposes of your trip to Newport 
during the summer of 1936 ; was that the year you were there ? 

Mr.DEATHERAGE. Either the summer of 1936 or the fall of 1935. 

Mr. Whitley. You went up there with Mr. Campbell? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the purpose of that trip, Mr, Deatherage? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, we naturally were all starving to death 
for funds, and they have some money up there in Newport, and some 
people who were interested, that is, we were informed they were by 
a fellow that traveled in the Newport society, and he asked us to- 
come up and present the situation to some interested people, and we 
came up. 

Mr. Whitley. That was during the period of time you and Mr. 
Campbell were working together ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Mr. Gilbert assist you in any way while you 
were there ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I have no recollection, I say I may have met 
him on that trip, I am not positive I met him. I don't think I met 
him at all personally. 

Mr. Whitley. You had no subsequent contacts with him? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know that he was working with Mr. Camp- 
bell subsequently? 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; it was a complete surprise to me. 

Mr. Whitley. You knew Mr. Campbell left you and was no longer 
with you, and you didn't know that he had any affiliation? 

Mr. Deatherage. I thought he had entirely dropped out and did 
nothing. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the source of the finances for your organi- 
zation, Mr. Deatherage ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, the main source is my own personal for- 
tune, or was. It wasn't very much, about $25,000. I sold my in- 
surance. Of course, I was making $10,000 a year with Carbide & 
Carbon Chemicals Corporation as an engineer, which was a little 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3483 

more than I needed. I had other stocks and things of that sort, and 
I sacrificed everything I had except a couple of pieces of property. 
I have got some anonymous donations and we have naturally — in the 
very beginning wc built our organization up into posts of 200 men 
and we charged dues. But immediately — well, we only ran along 
that way about 6 months, and it was very apparent that was the 
wrong thing to do, so we changed the procedure and split them up 
into 10-man posts, and accepted no money from any post at all at 
headquarters. 

Mv. Whitley. No dues or contributions? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; each post carried its own financial respon- 
sibility. So I had no income and such income as I had is reported 
on my income-tax reports, and they are available in the files. 

]\h\ Whitley. Do you have any regular contributors or do you 
solicit regular contributions? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir ; I am the rottenest begger in the world. 

Mr. Whitley. But you have had some anonymous contributions? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes ; I have had. 

Mr. Whitley. Sizable amounts? 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; not sizable amounts. 

Mr. Whitley. And at the present time there are no dues at all 
paid to the national headquarters? 

Mr, Deatherage. Well, that is not exactly true. I have some fel- 
lows who are associated with the movement as individuals, known as 
members at large, fellows who don't want to stick their necks out 
in their community, and would like to go along quietly under cover 
and do the work without any build up. 

Mr. Whitley. They don't want to be identified with it. 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, most of your members are un- 
identified ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right ; and a very good reason for that. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever make any financial contributions to 
JMr. Campbell in connection with his work with you ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. To what extent, do you recall, Mr. Deatherage ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, there was between $1,000 and $1,500 ; I think 
it was $1,500 cash. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that during that period that he was Avorking 
with you ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever make any financial contributions to 
him after he left you and started his private enteri^rise with Mr. 
^Gilbert ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he ever make any contributions to you or to 
jour organization ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; it was all one-sided. I might clarify that 
testimony if I may. 

Mr. AVhitley. All right, sir. 

Mr. Deatherage. I made that contribution to Mr. Campbell. Part 
of that money, half of it, I think, $750, went to Lt. John E. Kelly, 
who was also working on subversive activities for the Reserve officers. 



3484 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Have you seen Lieutenant Kelly since yon have been 
here? 

Mr. Deathekage. No, sir. 

The Chairman. This time ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir. 

The Chairman. He is not in town, as far as yon knoAV ? 

Mr. Deatherage. As far as I know. 

Mr. Voorhis. Well, Mr. Deatherage, yon stated awhile ago, I think,, 
that yon found some interest in your work in Newport, is that right? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. Well, how far did that go ; I mean, what did you mean 
by that? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I meant that there was an individual at 
that time who lived in Newport who was interested in this work very 
actively. 

Mr. VooRHis. Was that Mr. Gilbert ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. Do you mind telling the committee who it was? 

Mr. Deatherage. It was Howland Spencer, the man that sold the 
land to Father Divine across from Hyde Park. 

Mr. Voorhis. Did he contribute any funds to your organization ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I got $200 from Spencer one time when I was in 
a jam, short, and I wired him asking if he couldn't help me out, and he 
sent me $200, and that was split between Campbell and myself to pay 
hotel bills and travel expenses. 

The Chairman. Is that all you got out of Mr, Spencer ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I have a hazy recollection of another $75 or $80 
one time we got at New York, but it certainly wasn't more than $300 all 
the time I knew him. 

The Chairman. Who else did you get money from at Newport ? 

Mr, Deatherage, That was all. 

The Chairman. That was all ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

The Chairman, Did you confer with a number of people while you 
were there? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; I had dinner on a yacht with Howland 
Spencer and Frazer Jelke, who was the oleomargarine king, and I 
think young Astor was out there in a sloop, and two or three more 
fellows. 

The Chairman. Did you discuss your work with them ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir; we discussed that ancl, of course, Jelke 
had just come back from Spain and he was torn to pieces. 

The Chairman. Who is that ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Frazer Jelke. 

The Chairman. Were they interested in your work? 

Mr. Deatherage. Oh, yes; they were very much interested; but 
their attitude was "let George do it." 

The Chairman. Tliey didn't want to put up any money? 

Mr. Deatherage. Oh, no. 

The Chairman. But they approved of what you were doing? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, 1 would say this : Naturally they are wealthy 
people, and Jelke had seen property and private capital destroyed in 
Spain and he was all upset, and naturally they were wondering what 
might happen. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3485 

The Chairman. What did young Astor think about it ; was he pretty 
interested in it? 

Mr. Deatherage. I have a hazy recollection of him getting a cussing 
from Mike Ahern because he said he was going to take his yacht and 
go out in the Atlantic and let it blow over. 

The Chairman. Before we get off that subject, have you had occa- 
sion to discuss your movements with other people ? 

JNIr, Deatherage. What do you mean — in Newport? 
The Chairman. All over the country; have you discussed it with 
many people? 

Mr. Deatherage. I talk my head off every time I get a chance. 

The Chairman. You, of course, never tried to get into the political 
angle ; you didn't discuss it with any leaders in any party, or anything- 
of that sort, from that standpoint, did you? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well 

The Chairman (interposing). That is, you didn't discuss it with 
any of the leaders of the Democratic Party or the Eepublican Party, or 
anything of that sort ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Oh, yes ; all the years I have been in this thing I 
have discussed it with leaders. For instance, I just discussed it the 
other day with ex-Senator Hatfield, of West Virginia, who is a cousin 
of mine, and we discussed this situation all the way through. He is a 
power in Republican politics there. 

Mr. Dempsey. In what politics ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Republican Party. 

Mr. Dempsey. Power, you say? ' 

Mr. Deatherage. I say, in my State. 

The Chairman. Could you tell us anybody else you went over this 
with at a conference, any of the political leaders ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, that is rather difficult to recall. 

The Chairman. Were you in a conference with anyone last night ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, yes. 

The Chairman. Who was it you were in conference with? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I talked with Jim True. 

The Chairman. Jim True — were you with him last night? 

Mr. Deatherage. I saw him last night. 

Tlie Chairman. Who else was present when you saw him ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Major McGuire, my secretary. 

The Chairman. Who else? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, that is all. 

The Chairman. Did you discuss with him certain committeemen 
that you had been in touch with ; did that come up in the discussion ? 

]Mr. Deatherage. This committee? 

The Chairman. National committeemen of either party that you 
had been in touch with. 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; I discussed a little conference I had at one 
time with one of the committeemen. 

The Chairman. Tell us about that, please, if you don't mind. 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I had some dealings with Walter Hallinan 
in Charleston. 

The Chairman. Who? 

Mr. Deatherage. Walter Hallinan, of the Republican National 
Committee. 

The Chairman. Tell us what that was. 



3486 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Deatherage. I want to get a choice of words here now, so let 
me think. Before the 1936 elections I had always put out our litera- 
ture by mimeographing — that is, w^e put out publications, and the first 
was the Pioneer Herald from around 1934, and then we went to a 
animeographed magazine, which we distributed among our own mem- 
bership. It was never put on public sale any place and it was called 
the White Knight. We changed the name. Well, I visualized that 
Ave were going to have to increase our activities as elections came along, 
and I was out to get support for it, and I figured I might get out a 
magazine which we could put on the newsstands. In those days I was 
naive enough to think that I could get out something that the news- 
stands would sell or handle, but I quickly found out that the news- 
stands only put on sale those things of which they approved, not which 
the public might desire. So I had one of my men approach Walter 
Hallinan; he had gone to school with him and knew him very inti- 
mately, and I wanted to see if I couldn't get some financial support to 
start this magazine. 

The Chairman. Did he give you any financial support? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, no; he promised it to me and then he ran 
out on me. 

The Chairman. He was in agreement with your program? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, we discussed the thing quite frankly and 
went over the whole situation and there was present myself and 
three or four members of our local council. 

The Chairman. You have just named the Republican leaders; 
have you discussed it with any Democratic leaders or committeemen 
or anything of that sort? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, not to my knowledge, not unless some- 
body would read the names off to me and I could check them that 
way. I can't recall. 

The Chairman. I see. 

Go ahead, Mr. Wliitley. 
• Mr. Whitley. Mr. Deatherage, have any of your speeches or any 
of your literature been published by the World Service Organiza- 
tion at Erfurt, Germany? 

Mr. Deatherage. Been published by them? 

Mr. Whiteet. Yes. 

Mr. Deatherage. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. Or sent out from there for distribution? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, we used to send out to organizations like 
that, sometimes as many as 8 or 10 copies of each issue, that is, we 
exchanged literature. For instance, I would send Pelley a couple 
of each issue. 

The Chairman. Bight in that connection please, sir, you say you 
would send to Germany copies of your publication? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

The Chairman. And to Italy? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

The Chairman. And they in turn would send you their publica- 
tions ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right, a return, an exchange. 

The Chairman. Did you ever know that some of your publications 
were sent directly from Germany by the propaganda agency to 
people in the United States? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3487 

Mr. Deatherage. I never knew that until I read it, I think it was 
in your testimony. 

The Chairman. You didn't authorize them to do that, that was 
just a part of their plan? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, I want to explain my connections if I may 
have just a moment. 

I have the reports that I have been accused of being in the pay of 
the Nazi Government, furthering their aims, and so forth. As a mat- 
ter of fact, this Johannes Klapproth who was in charge of the Amer- 
ican section, and who is now dead — lie died 2 or 3 weeks ago — was a 
German- American who lived in this country for years and was a 
chemist for the Shell Oil Co., and he had been leader of the Friends 
of New Germany on the west coast, and the outfit got so rotten he 
wouldn't have anything to do with the Germans, quit them. But he 
was a member of my organization, the Knights of the White Camellia, 

Mr. VooRHis. What was his name ? 

Mr. Deatherage. K-1-a-p-p-r-o-t-h, Johannes Klapproth. 

The Chairman. Continue, sir. 

Mr. Deatherage. He was a member of my organization, and he 
helped me in getting out literature and editing material and things 
of that sort. So he was in financial difficulties and he decided to go 
on back to Germany, and when he got back to Germany he had no 
job and he was very much in distress, and he was trying to get on the 
American section, and I, of course — I had no acquaintanceshi]:) with 
anybody in Germany but they knew of my position in this work over 
here, and I felt that if I wrote a few letters to help him, I might get 
him on — so I assisted him all I could to get on there. 

The Chairman. You never received any pay from Germany or from 
any German associations or sources? 

Mr. Deatherage. Absolutely not. 

The Chairman. No contributions for your movement? 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; as a matter of fact we paid for what we got 
there ; paid for the subscriptions. 

The Chairman. It was more of a general sympathetic feeling be- 
cause much of the situation is the same, isn't it? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

The Chairman. Now, these international offices established in Ber- 
lin or Stuttgart and Rome, you said yesterday they had liaison with 
the so-called anti-Communist organizations in the United States. Is 
that for the purpose of presenting a united front throughout the 
world, including the United States, is that what they want to do? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I don't quite understand your "united 
front." Well, I do understand it. 

The Chairman. You said there was a liaison between the anti-Com- 
munist groups in the United States and the international offices in 
Germany and Italy didn't you? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well. I testified I believe if you will refer to that, 
that they were trying to start one in Italy, they hadn't actually 
done it. 

The Chairman. That is what you testified to, I recall it. But you 
also said there was a loose connection in the respect that you ex- 
changed literature and communications and things of that sort? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. I am associated in that manner with 
organizations in India, in China, Siberia, even inside of Russia. 



3488 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. And is that true of Mr. Pelley ; does he have the 
same communications ; is he in the same situation ? 

Mr. Deatherage. To a great extent. I don't know whether it is as 
extensive as mine or not. 

Tlie Chairman. Is that true with reference to George W. Chris- 
tians ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I have never had anything to do with Christians. 

The Chairman. Well, to be absolutely frank, some of these people 
in this business, or in this movement, you suspect to be racketeers, 
don't you ? I judge from the Saturday Evening Post article you have 
no use for a man that is in this thing just for the money; have you? 

Mr. Deatherage. Absolutely not. 

The Chairman. Haven't you found some of these fellows primarily 
interested in getting money out of it ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; but if they ever got Tt, they performed a 
miracle, which I couldn't do ; they have all been starving to death. 

Mr. VooRHis. I am not sure that I understood — what was the job 
that you were trying to help Mr. Klapproth get? 

Mr. Deatherage. I was trying to get him a job in the American 
section of the International World Congress at Erfurt. 

Mr. VooRHis. In the American section of it? 

Mv. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. What is that ? 

Mr. Deatherage. You see, they publish anti-Communist news in 
eight different languages, and they have an English-speaking section. 
They have it all divided up. Each year they have a congress, and 
their representatives or delegates come from all over the world and 
meet there. You are familiar with the set-up they have got in the 
League of Nations. It is similar to that. In other words, if you 
have got a fellowship of faiths belonging to the League of Nations, 
that is a similar set-up. 

The Chairman. The plan is to have a world-wide organization; 
isn't that true? 

Mr. Deatherage. World-wide organization. 

The Chairman. Then in the United States the plan is to bring all 
these groups together under a national leader, if you can find a leader, 
isn't that true, a leader that you can trust? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, let me explain that. There are two schools 
of thought there. First, they realize that they are never going to get 
any place in the final analysis if the conditions in the United States 
are solved in a peaceful manner by ballot and in the American way 
and civil disorder does not break out, as it has broken out in Michigan 
and other places — and multiply that Nation-wide, say — there is no 
objective in having any great national organization. 

On the other hand, a great many people object to it because they 
know that just the moment you build up a big organization they 
have got to have Mr. Dies and his committee on top of them, wanting 
to find out this and that, or the F. B. I., who are out now with their 
political police checking up on the subscribers, the men who are 
getting literature, and intimidating them. 

The Chairman. That was in Mr. Pelley's publication as I read it 
this morning. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3489 

Mr. Deatherage. They have been to see me and my subscribers, 
too. 

The Chairman. They are going around to find out wlio your sub- 
scribers are? 

Mr. Deatherage. They have ah-eady got their names through the 
post otRce, and they are going to the subscribers and they go along 
to an individual, and his activity might be limited to being a sub- 
scriber to a magazine or newspaper, and they put the pressure on him. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Deatherage, when you get these com- 
munications from Germany and Italy, we will say, what do you want 
with them; does it give you factual information that you need in 
connection with your work? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

The Chairman. And then, of course, by the exchange of informa- 
tion you are able to use some of the information that you get from 
Germany and Italy, and they are able to use the information you 
send them? 

Mr. Deatherage. Surely. In one of their publications I miglit find 
two or three articles that are useful to me, and contain factual in- 
formation. The rest of it might be just junk that I am not interested 
in at all. 

The Chairman. I see. Well, of course, you have traveled ex- 
tensively all over the United States in connection with your work, 
haven't you? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You find a great deal of sympathy for what you 
are trying to do? 

Mv. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You find it among all branches of people ? 

Mr. Deatherage. AYell, no. 

The Chairman. "Wliat class of people do you get the greatest and 
most sympathetic response from ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, naturally the people you get the most 
sympathetic response from are working people ; the intelligentsia don't 
bother with that bunch because they are the frustrated elite ; as Max 
Salzsman, the Kansas district organizer says, they are the first fel- 
lows we are going to bump off, and I kind of agree that if we ever 
got into civil disorder, we would take the same action. The liberal 
is in between the two fires. The way I could describe them, as far 
as we are concerned, is that they take in oxygen and give off carbon 
dioxide. 

The Chairman. Well, you are a student of Hitler's history, aren't 
you ; his activities ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

The Chairman. You have made a great deal of study of nazi-ism, 
and fascism, both; have you not? 

Mr. Dr:\.therage. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you hold that really nazi-ism and fascism, 
the difference between them and communism is that under the Fascists 
and the Nazis the owner retains paper or nominal title to his property, 
but the state actually directs it ; isn't that practically true of Germany 
and Italy? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 



3490 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. That is the big distinction ? 

Mr. Deatherage. And the other is religion. 

The Chairman. I know the religious angle, too, but I am talking 
about economically speaking, one is national socialism and the other 
is international socialism ; that is the theory of it ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; it is nationalism versus internationalism — 
that is the division. 

The Chairman. But in actual practice in Germany and Italy, the 
essential feature of private property, namely, control, has been taken 
away from the owners, hasn't it ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, no ; it is subject at any time to levy by the 
state. 

The Chairman. The state reserves the right to confiscate without 
due process of law? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right; sure. 

The Chairman. Now, you know that Hitler made his greatest 
appeal among the workers, didn't he — wasn't that the bulk of his 
support, with the workers? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

The Chairman. He couldn't do anything with the middle class, 
and he denounced the middle class, didn't he? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, not to my understanding. I would say 
that he made his play with the workingman and the lower half of 
the middle class ; but the intelligentsia and the businessmen, nobody 
paid any attention to them. 

The Chairman. So you find very much in your work that that is 
true in the United States; that your appeal is greater to the same 
class of people? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, there is a greater acceptance there, and the 
reason for that is — there are two reasons for it. First, you can't 
get any truth ; if we had tried to bring this thing out truthfully in 
all the press, and lay it out where we could all see it and discuss it, 
we would have no necessity to do certain things. 

But not having that, you have only one recourse, and as you know 
enough about psychology of peoples you have got to appeal to their 
emotions, not their reason. The avenues to reason are closed to us.. 

The Chairman. That is what Hitler said in his Mein Kampf. 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't know whether he said it or not, but that 
is what I said. If he agrees with me, that is all right with me.. 
[Laughter.] 

But that is true, gentlemen. 

The Chairman. But you find the greatest appeal, the strongest 
appeal you make is the fact that a lot of people don't like the Jewish 
race; is that right? Is that your first appeal from the standpoint of 
when you talk to a man — is it a racial proposition? 

Mr, Deatherage. No, no; absolutely not; emphatically not. I 
emphatically deny that. 

The Chairman. That is not the appeal? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is not the appeal at all. 

The Chairman. You would be in favor of using force if necessary 
in the United States to suppress this group you are talking about? 

Mr. Deatherage. The only time that I would advocate the use of 
force is if there is a break-down of constitutional law and order and 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3491 

we have a civil disorder started by the leftist side, we want to be in 
a position to use force to save our own homes. 

The Chairman. You think you ought to get ready now so that in 
the event that the other side does resort to force that your side will 
be ready; is that right? 

Mr. Deatherage. Sure. 

The Chairman. Well, now, the other side probably figures the 
same thing; don't you imagine that? 

Mr. Deatherage. I know they are getting ready; so does every- 
body else that knows what is going on in this business. 

The Chairman. So that what you really have is two sides getting 
ready for some conflict? 

]\Ir. Deatherage. That is right. 
"^ The Chairman. What would happen to all the people who are not 
in that category — would they be caught between the two ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Here is the way we figure it out. I don't care 
what you think or I think. You might be on the opposite side of the 
fence, and we could argue back and forth. Say this assemblage is an 
example. If we were to take a vote on anything — whether you like 
yams and I don't like them, for instance — you would find it always, 
divided 25 percent on one side of the fence, 25 percent on the other, 
and 50 percent in the middle; whether you go to a union labor meeting 
or one of my meetings or over to the House of Representatives, that is 
about the way they will divide themselves. 

We could talk our heads off, like the two fellows that got together 
and were arguing, a Republican and a Democrat ; and when they got 
through the Republican was a Democrat and the Democrat was a 
Republican; so they hadn't gotten any place, and they were still op- 
posed. No matter what happens in this country, you will probably 
have, with 120,00,000 people, 30,000,000 taking the leftist side and 
30,000,000 taking the rightist side and G0,000,000 who are sitting in 
the middle, and those two militant minorities are getting ready for 
something which they feel is inevitable. 

The Chairman. You don't favor taking the initiative; you want to 
be on the defense and let the other crowd take the initiative ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I am going to let him take a crack at me first, 
because I am a believer in constitutional law and order. I say this — 
I don't care what sort of legislation, economic or anything else, politi- 
cal in this country, takes place, if the majority of the people by ballot 
and in a lawful constitutional manner enact it, and if I am on the 
wrong side of the fence, I am just lost — "all right ; you just go ahead as 
long as it is peaceful." 

But when I am convinced that it is not going to be, and when I see 
in my own eyes a social revolution going on, and they tell me that 
this is a peaceful social revolution, and I know from contemporary 
history that there never has been a peaceful social revolution in the 
history of the world, certainly not recently, every one of them Russia, 
Germany, Italy, ancl so on down the line, they have been marked by 
violence; now, if we are going to have a peaceful social revolution, 
that is fine ; but history proves that w^e never have had one. That is 
my idea of force. I am not going to sit around and let a fellow bump 
me off if I know he is going to do it. 



3492 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Deathera^e, do you know anything about a meet- 
ing allegedly held in Chicago during January 1939, at which various 
groups were represented? 

Mr. Deatherage. I had a letter — I think it was about that time; I 
would have to refer to my files to confirm it — but about that time I got 
a letter from a west coast group saying that such a meeting was to be 
held and inviting me to come, and I didn't attend. 

Mr. Whitley. That was the early part of this year anyway? 

Mr. Deatherage. I think it was. 

Mr. Whitley. What was that west coast group that invited you ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That was Frank W. Clark's organization. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the National Liberty Party ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether General Moseley was pres- 
ent at that meeting in Chicago? 

Mr. Deatherage. I know emphatically he was not. 

Mr. Whitley. He was not? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't think he even knows who they are. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he invited to that meeting ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, now, I couldn't say. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know about that? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; when he began making speeches the mail 
just tumbled in there, hundreds of letters a day. I don't know 
whether somebody wrote and ask him to speak there or not. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what groups were represented at that 
meeting ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; I don't. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know of your own knowledge, or through 
hearsay, whether it was a large meeting or many groups were repre- 
sented ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I have a recollection of receiving a letter 
saying that a certain number of groups were present. I have no 
means of knowing whether that was true or not. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Can you name some of those groups to the 
best of your recollection, Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Deatherage. I think it was the National Gentile Association 
or whatever it is. 

The Chairman. Was that Mr. Shea's league? 

Mr, Deatherage. I think he is associated with that; they have an 
organization in Chicago. 

The Chairman. He claims to have an international league with 
chapters all over the world, doesn't he? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I read that in the Post ; I don't know. 

Getting back to your question, I don't remember; I could get it 
and put it in the record if you want it. 

Mr. Whitley. Wliat was the purpose of the meeting as stated in 
the invitation you received? 

Mr. Deatherage. It is my recollection it was the formation of a 
national organization. 

Mr. Whitley. Why didn't you attend ; was it because you couldn't 
or didn't want to? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I have organized a couple of meetings of 
that kind myself, and I have been at several. I was at one in Cin- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3493 

cinnati at which they rung General Moseley in to speak, which 
turned out to be a branch of the anti-Nazis, a whole bunch got stung 
on that one. We walked out on them when we caught them with 
the goods, and it takes money to do these things ; we haven't got it 
and the reason I think I didn't go was because I didn't have the 
funds. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, this meeting you attended that was 
promoted by the anti-Nazi league, when you found out that the meet- 
ing was sponsored by a group against the Nazis, you all pulled out? 

Mr. Deatherage. Sure ; because they were all enemies of ours and 
I knew everything I did or said would be misinterpreted and dis- 
torted and I would have been liable to have been slipped a dose of 
poison. 

The Chairman. Were you at the Asheville meeting — do you re- 
member when they had the general meeting at Asheville to try to 
get together? 

Mr. Deatherage. If you refer to the meeting of the Christian 
Kaymen ? 

The Chairman. Yes ; at Asheville, N. C. 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; I wasn't there ; I was supposed to be a speaker, 
but when I found out what w^as going on 

The Chairman (interposing). What was going on? 

(The answer to this and a series of subsequent questions were 
stricken from the record as hearsay.) 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. Deatherage, I want to get clear in my own mind 
just what your position is in connection with these alien agitators in 
this country. You know there are many of them, of course. Take the 
alien Conmiunists — do you believe they should stay here or be sent 
back to Russia ? Should the alien Communists who are here, creating 
disturbance and spreading propaganda against our form of govern- 
ment, remain here or be sent back to Russia ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I would say that if they were Communists, and 
they believed in the overthrow of this Government by force ancl vio- 
lence, which they do, they ought to be sent back. 

Mr. Dempsey. What would you say about the Nazis — should they be 
allowed to remain here or should they be sent back? 

Mr. Deatherage. Any Nazis out advocating national socialism for 
the United States and change in the form of this Government, ought 
to get the same treatment, and ought to be sent back to Germany. 

Mr. Dempsey. What would you say about the Fascists? 

Mr. Deatherage. Exactly the same thing about them; they should 
be sent back to Italy. 

Mr. Dempsey. You had some comment to make about the atheists 
yesterday ; where would you send them ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I think I would let the Lord take care of them, 
He will fix them. 

Mr. Dempsey. Thank you. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Deatherage, an article of yours, entitled "Will 
America Be Jewry's Waterloo?" sent out by this World Service or- 
ganization from Erfurt, Germany — do you recall that that was cir- 
culated from there? 

Mr. Deatherage, I have no recollection, there is so much of it I 
don't remember. 



3494 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall preparing an article or making a speech, 
the title of which was, "Will America Be Jewry's Waterloo ?" — do you 
recall that? 

Mr. Deatherage. The only thing I ever published or wrote for pub- 
lication in Germany was a speech to be presented before the Inter- 
national World Congress at Erfurt. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the caption of that speech ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't remember ; that might be it. 

Mr, W^hitley. Do you recall ever having made a speech or pre- 
paring an article with that caption, "Will America Be Jewry's 
Waterloo?" 

Mr. Deatherage. I have a hazy recollection that I did, but I am not 
j)Ositive. 

Mr. Whitley. And you are not sure whether it was sent out from 
this World Service, the agency in Erfurt, Germany? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't remember it. 

Mr. Whitley. You w^ouldn't say that it wasn't? 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; I wouldn't say it wasn't. 

Mr. Whitley. Some of your articles or some of your speeches were 
sent out through that service? I believe you said earlier that some 
of your articles or speeches had been circulated from this World 
Service Organization in Erfurt, Germany? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; I assume they did, because I sent them 10 
copies of our publications. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you actually seen any of your material which 
had been circulated from there after you had sent it to them? 

Mr. Deatherage. You mean the publication had been sent over and 
sent back ? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes; you would send it to them, and they would 
23rint it and send it back ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; I have heard of it, but 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). You have heard that it had been done? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes ; I have heard of it. 

Mr. Whitley. You have no reason to doubt but what it was done? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. WiHTLEY. Because you do exchange material with them? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. And you know that the World Service Organization 
at Erfurt is the organization that does disseminate information from 
that point throughout the world, including the United States? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Deatherage, I read you yesterday and received 
your explanations on your letter to Mr. Campbell dated December 11, 
and his reply of December 13, your letter of December 11 having been 
written at Atlanta, Ga., while you were there conferring with General 
Moseley on this national organization. 

I Avill read you now from your letter dated December 14, 1938, 
written from Atlanta, Ga., which is in response to Mr. Campbell's 
letter of December 13. 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley (reading) : 

Dear Jim : I have your letter of the 13th, and am sorry that you cannot find 
it possible to get here, and hope that on the General's return the financial end 
will be taken care of in such a way that there will be something for your 
expenses. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3495 

Is the siigoestioii in that sentence that the general might take care 
of Mr. Campbell's expenses? 

Mr. Deatherage. What it meant was that we had hopes of certain 
patriotic individuals, whom I can't identify, putting up some money 
to further tJus educational campaign; and if that was procured, it was 
possible that we might — the general knew nothing about it — that we 
might be able to put enough influence on the general to have him bring 
him down and take advantage of his material, 

Mr. Whitley. Did those plans with reference to financing ma- 
terialize? 

Mr. Deatheeage. No ; not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. If they did, you didn't get any of it, is that right? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; I didn't. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether the general has been get- 
ting financial support from certain individuals? 

Mr. Deatherage. To my personal knowledge he has never re- 
ceived a penny, he refused it. 

Mr. Whitley. He hasn't been active in trying to enlist financial 
aid? 

Mr. Deatherage. Not to my knowledge; I tried to persuade him to 
do it, but I never could get away with it. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

Rest assured that I will imiiress upon him that you should get here as soon 
as possible — and before we make the final plans for organization. 

Please rest assured that our time is coming and that within the next 12 
months those who ha\"e borne the heart-breaking load of carrying on the 
fight will come into their own. 

You are referring there to your own organization, Mr. Campbell's, 
and other groups engaged in the same type of activities? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, he might get a postmaster's job or some- 
thing. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

That sacrifice will not have been in vain — when the crisis reaches its 
climax — and the Nation knows the facts. 

"W^iat did you anticipate there, Mr. Deatherage, when you speak 
of the "crisis"? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, we anticipated that this thing is going to 
end, as it ended in Spain, in a civil disorder, and an economic break- 
down and all it involves. 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. Deatherage, in answer to Mr. Whitley's ques- 
tion, in explaining the phrase "will come into their own," you say 
you might get a job as a postmaster, is that why you were con- 
tacting these Eepublican national committeemen, do' you think they 
had something to do with that? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I had no thought of that in mind. My 
immediate thought was to get some financial help. 

Mr. Dempsey. Now, that you might get a postmastership, that was 
just facetious? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Dempsey. What did 3'ou have in mind when you said "will 
come into their own"? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I meant that our aims would come to a 
successful conclusion, and this thing would be cleared up and instead 

949R1— 39— vol. 5 21 



3496 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

of beino; discredited and called Nazis and Fascists and everything on 
the earth, that we would come into our own as, at least, respectable 
people and good Americans. 

Mr. VooRHis. What do you mean by saying that the thing would 
be cleared up? 

Mr. Deatherage. I meant this situation which now exists into 
which we are drifting. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Whitley, proceed. 

Mr. Whitley. Continuing the letter, Mr. Deatherage: 

You may rest assured that the General will take care of that as you know 
him. 

In other words, you mean that the General will see that those who 
have helped him are taken care of whenever the climax comes or 
when the' ends are accomplished ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, in a general way I mean that; yes. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

He has already expressed to me that this must be the case for he is now 
realizing a little of what a number of people have gone tlirough and have 
sacrificed for the cause. 

You again, by the word "cause" mean this common cause in which 
you are all engaged? 

Mr. Deatherage. The common cause, anticommunism cause. 

Mr. Whitley. And you mean, of course, by the "General," General 
Moseley ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

When I arrived I found him with the idea that all these outfits that we 
know so well were O. K. and good Americans. 

That refers to the various other organizations engaged in activi- 
ties along the same lines as yours, generally ? 
Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 
Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

I hated to disillusion him, but it had to be done. Fellows like Major Pease, 
who is now in Florida — 

will you identify him for us, Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, as far as I can. Major Pease has been 
active in anti-Communist work over a period of years. I never met 
him personally. I have had some contact with him and his back- 
ground didn't suit me. He had been over in Germany and had been 
run out of Germany, and he had been over in England and had been 
run out of England, and he published a very violent sheet, which was 
absolutely racial prejudice and bigotry, wdiich I couldn't stomach. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the name of that slieet? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, the only one which I recall and which he 
edited was called Nation Arise, published in Florida by a fellow 
named Blanchard. 

Mr. Whitley. Were his headquarters in Florida ? 

Mr. Deatherage. They were in New York, but he went clown and 
attached himself to Blanchard, and then he wrote those articles. 

Mr. Whitley. Is he still putting out that publication ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; I don't think so. They are active down 
around Miami. That was the gang that was in that anti-Jew riot 
down there recently, in which 19 men were hurt. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3497 

Mr. Whitley. Is that the White Front, what he called his 
organization^ 

llr. Deatherage. I think that is what he calls it. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you exchange literature with him ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; when I found out what his coiniections were, 
I made up my mind that I didn't want to have anything to do with 
him, and I just dropped him. 

The Chairman. Let me clear up one point there. The other day 
some excerpt from one of your letters got into the press, though it 
wasn't admitted in evidence, which mentioned Mr. John Frey, of the 
American Federation of Labor. In order to clarify that, while it 
wasn't in the evidence, you never had any contact with Mr. Frey in 
any respect, did you^ 

Mr. Deatherage. None whatever, personally. 

The Chairman. Mr. Frey never indicated — as a matter of fact, you 
know it to be a fact that he has no sympathy with any racial 
prejudice at all? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, neither hav« L 

The Chairman. Well, I say you never had any communication or 
contact with him or anything else, and when you mentioned in your 
letter to Mr. Campbell the names of some people that you thought 
might be interested in this, it was just your supposition '? 

Mr. Deatherage. If you will give me a moment, I will tell you 
how that happened. 

Naturally in the preliminary plans to build a national organiza- 
tion, to combat communism, the suggestion was made to me that I 
prepare a list of people who would sit in conference and would pre- 
pare the framework of an organization and establish its policy, and 
in that I included leading men from varying walks of life, Mr. Frey 
of the labor union, Mr. Tabor, because of the farmers 

The Chairman (interposing). But you had no authority from 
them to mention their names, you had never taken the matter up 
with them to find out if they were sympathetic to any such move- 
ment ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, and I never mentioned the names publicly, 
and onl}^ privately in that one letter. 

The Chairman. Which got out to the press. 

Mr. Deatherage. If it did, it came from this committee. 

The Chairman. I want to read from a letter dated May 22, 1939, 
which I received from Mr. Frey : 

The facts are that I never heard of Mr. Deatherage until he was referred to 
as a witness before your committee. 

I have been as opposed to antisemitism as to anticatholicism. As a trade- 
union official for over 40 years, I have vigorously fought every effort to bring 
within the trade-union movement an element of prejudice based on racial, 
social, or religious lines. 

During the period, shortly after the war when the Klu Klux Klan was active, 
I vigorously opposed their efforts to get a standing within the trade-union 
movement. 

Free institutions and racial or religions prejudice cannot long live side by side. 
In the end those who propagandize these prejudices will discover that they 
have been public enemies instead of intelligent champions of free institutions 
as they have been understood and accepted by our Nation. 

Any other gentleman, whose name was mentioned in connection 
with that--which wasn't a part of our record unless the reporter 
made a mistake and put that in the record — any other gentleman 



3498 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

whose name was mentioned in connection with that will be accorded 
an opportunity to explain his attitude. We don't want someone 
smeared through some mention in any correspondence. 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I wish to state right there, that I have 
never given any interview to the press or published through word 
or deed any of those names except in a private letter to Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing the letter) : 

Fellows like Major Pease, who is now in Florida, Gwiner of Atlanta, Mrs. 
Fry, and others who cannot be trusted, were active in attempting to get him 
swung into line. 

Gwiner you identified yesterday, I believe? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

The Chairman. That "Mrs. Fry" didn't refer to Mrs. John P. 
Frey? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, she is the editor of the Christian Free Press 
in Los Angeles. 

Mr, Whitley (continuing) : 

When he saw for himself what Gwiner here in Atlanta was trying to do, he 
began to wake up. 

You are still referring to the General ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

You are right in no man close to him must come with other than clean hands 
and that he must be ready to lay down his life if that is required without 
hesitation. It is our job to see to it that this fact Ls turned into reality, for 
one slip on his part, or ours and we would be sunk. 

This reference to laying down his life, you mean there in case of a 
military action, revolution, he must be ready to fight? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; that he must defend the principles of this 
country with his life. 

Mv. Whitley. In that connection, Mr. Deatherage, you have al- 
ready explained what your attitude was with reference to military 
action, that is, that you felt that your organization and all of the 
affiliated organizations should be prepared to take military action if 
necessary. lYliat did you contem])late there, a private military or- 
ganization within this Nation-wide group, or did you contemplate 
utilizing the established armed forces of the Nation in case military 
action was necessary? 

Mr. Deatherage. AYell, what I had in mind was a group of nation- 
ally organized men, properly formed, and in sympathy with the 
ideals of this Republic, who would be, in case ol civil break-down, 
able to place themselves in the position of defending their homes 
and the things which they stood for. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you wanted to build up along with 
this Nation-M'ide organization, at least a nucleus of a military organi- 
zation, an organization that could function as a military organiza- 
tion 

Mr. Deatherage (interposing). In case of civil disorder. 

Mr. Whitley. In case it was necessary? 

Mr, Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What — or was that the reason that you and Mr. 
Campbell were both veiy much interested in sending literature to 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3499 

veterans' organizations and to members of the Reserve Officers' 
Association, becanse they were men witli military experience? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; there was a double motive there, that and 
the fact that most of the men of that caliber were leaders in their 
community to a certain extent. 

Mr. Whitley. They were in a position to pass on the information ? 

Mr, Deatherage. Here is the thing. What we wanted and wdiat 
we do want and work for is leadership. We don't care about the 
mob, because I explained to you awhile ago that you can talk your 
head off and when the division comes if there is ever a break-down 
of civil law in this country, and you have disorder, the sheep and 
the goats are going to divide themselves automatically, you will have 
all the manpower you need. But if you got leadership, that is all 
you need. 

The Chairman. Right there, isn't that the same principle the 
Communists work on when they train their party men, and have a 
vanguard of the proletariat, they want a trained leadership to head 
the movement? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right, and it has been very successful. 

The Chairman. What you have in mind is following their plan? 

Mr. Deatherage. I had in mind building up an opposing force. 

The Chairman. I know it is an opposing force, but it is along the 
the same lines. 

Mr. Deatherage. In a general way. 

The Chairman. You wanted men who are ready to lead the people 
who would be ready to follow. 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing the letter) : 

The realization of this has caused the General to take it a little easy tor a 
start— until lie got his feet thoroughly under him. He thought, as I did at the 
start, that this great America would rise up in their wrath and wipe this bunch 
off the face of the earth when they knew part of the truth. 

What "bunch" are you referring to there which would be "wiped 
off the face of the earth," Mr. Deatherage ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Oh, those communists, Jew, Gentile, or whoever 
he is, I don't care who he is, if he were my own brother I would wipe 
his mouth out. 

The Chairman. You realize that there are a lot of men in the 
communistic movement of different nationalities, don't you? 

Mr. Deatherage. Surely. 

The Chairman. Earl Browder is not a Jew, is he? 

Mr. Deatherage. Not to my knowledge. 

The Chairman. Clarence Hathaway is not a Jew, is he? 

Mr. Deatherage. I know that. 

The Chairman. So that when you speak of the Communist Party, 
you recognize the fact that there" are different nationalities in there, 
and it even comprises people who are citizens of the United States, as 
well as aliens? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

Alas— he finds that there are skunks every place and that the enemy proce- 
dure IS that of the Oriental— sly, cunning, and crooked as hell. 



3500 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

However, he will decide on his return, just what procedure he will follow, 
and the plan now as he sees it, is to start a little G. H. Q. in Atlanta, where 
we will map the enemy — our friends, consolidated with us those that we know 
are right, and prepare the plans for the campaign. 

In other words, as a result of your conversations with the General, 
you are predicting that upon his return to Atlanta, he will be in ac- 
cord with your ideas for the formation of a Nation-wnde organization 
or consolidation of the various groups, and set up his headqiuirters in 
Atlanta, from which he will direct this federation of all these groups? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, yes; that in a general way, but, although 
I tried to influence the general, naturally to my way of thinking, you 
will find when he gets on this stand that he is a man that makes up 
his own mind, and I couldn't put across the things that I wanted. 

For instance, this national conference at which these leaders and 
the farm group, and the labor group, and everybody else was to be 
invited, to make the policy — it wasn't my policy, it was the policy 
which they would make. If I could persuade him to follow my ideas, 
that was my privilege to proceed. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it a fact, though, Mr. Deatherage, that most of the 
organizations, at least with which you were in touch and had been 
cooperating, agreed that the general was the logical man to head this 
national movement or group ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Oh, yes; they immediately 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). They all agreed to that? 

Mr. Deatherage. I clon't say they all did. 

Mr. Whitley. The majority of them? 

Mr. Deatherage. A great many of them. 

The Chairman. Right there, as I understand that letter, the word- 
ing of it, what you are actually saying is that the general had agreed 
to this plan of setting up the headquarters in Atlanta — did he agree 
to that part of it ? 

Mr. Deatherage. He had in mind that that was the logical thing to 
do, that he woidd set up a central headquarters, if a national organi- 
zation could be organized, and should be organized, and then they 
could put up a national headquarters in Atlanta to combat com- 
munism, but who should belong to it and what policy should be 
followed was up in the air. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you both agreed that there should 
be a national organization; it was just a question of how to set it up 
and who to include in that organization ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right, 

Mr. Whitley. That was the big problem? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

This — realizing that the situation is not yet where we can enlist the mass 
supiwrt of reaction — 

Reaction against what, or with reference to what? 

Mr. Deatherage. Reaction against what we interpret in this coun- 
try as a Jewish, Connnunist, Marxist government. 

Mr, Whitley. Jewish controlled ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Not Jewish controlled particularly, but a Com- 
munist, Marxist, anti-American movement of any kind. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3501 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

Many people are starting to react, bnt the main idea now is to build the frame- 
work of a campaign, this army, and secure and qualify the leadership. 

I believe you already explained that a moment ago. You stated 
that the iH-imary purpose of this national organization was to co- 
ordinate all of these forces and to train the leadership to lead any 
military action that might be deemed advisable? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, not strictly. That was my idea, it was 
the General's idea that if we were to form a national organization 
and should include representative organizations of the American 
people which are represented by the names of the men that you 
refer to. In other words, it was labor and farmer, and everybody 
else, and not only what you might term as anti-Semitic or anti-Com- 
munist groups, but all "patriotic groups, or all organizations which 
might feel sympathetic. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

The mass reaction will follow the leader when they are hurt bad enough. 
Now, we must have State and county leaders all over the Nation that we know 
without the shadow of a doubt are men that will stick under any kind of 
fire. 

That was in keeping with your plans for the national organization ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That was my plan. 

Mr. Whitley. But you stated that at least the General agreed 
with the idea or plan ? 

Mr. Deatherage. The only definite thing that he agreed on, was 
that he agreed that there should be either now or eventually, a 
national organization to unite all Americans who were anti-Com- 
munists. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

That is a job in itself, and a thing in which you can be of a great deal 
of help. 

That is building up this Nation-wide organization? 
Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. And consolidating the existing organizations and 
then expanding? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 
Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

Of course, the General must be careful in dealing with men of the R. O. A. 
(Reserve Officers Association) or any outfit that is still in active service — for 
if he did the accusation would be made at once that he was building up a 
Fascist army. 

The possibility of dealing wath men in active service or any of 
the active service units, was that discussed or considered as a possi- 
bility? 

]Mr. Deatherage. No, sir. 

]Mr. AVhitley. With reference to the "building up a Fascist army," 
you were trying to avoid being in a position where anyone would 
accuse you of that, or where anyone might accuse you of building 
up a Fascist army? 

]\Ir. Deatherage. We didn't either want to do it or be accused 
of it. 



3502 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

We must deal with persons in a civilian status. I would much prefer, and 
I think that you will agree, that the leadership should be offlcers who have 
seen active service for, generallj' speaking, they are men who hold decent 
positions in society, are more apt to be true, and are trained in the work that 
we must eventually do. 

That is in keeping with our discussion a moment ago, that you 
were trying to get men in the organization or wanted to get men 
into the organization who could furnish the leadership, and of 
course you would prefer men with military training? 

Mr. "Deatherage. Yes, you have got an example of that in the 
Associated Farmers, in California. Most of your leaclers there are 
officers, and in the case of civil disorder they are experienced men. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

I feel sure that if these men, many of whom you and I know, were appraised 
of the situation, they would resign their comaiissions and enlist with us for 
this American-.Tewish war, for that is all that is — a war fought with money 
and propaganda instead of rifles. 

I believe yesterday you objected to that, to a reference to your 
activities as propaganda, Mr. Deatherage? I made some reference to 
your literature or your activities along propaganda lines, and you 
objected to the use of that word ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't recall that testimony. 

Mr. Whitley. I may be wrong; that is just my idea. 

Mr. Deatherage. It is propaganda ; that is what it is. 

Mr. Whitley. That is what I thought. 

Now, you refer to many of the men if they were proj^erly apprised 
of the situation would resign their commissions and enlist with your 
organization. Do you mean the men in active service? 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; I mean by tliat the men in the Reserve Officers' 
Association, the Reserve officers, either of the Navy or the Army. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

And enlist with us for this American-.IewMsh war, for that is all it is — a war 
fought with money and propaganda instead of rifles. 

Would you like to enlarge upon that statement or explain it? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, if you have got about 2 days to give me, I 
will give you a chart and I will take it step by step and point out just 
how it is being done. 

Mr. Whitley. I don't want to limit you, Mr. Deatherage, but if you 
can make it briefer than 2 days, we would appreciate it. 

Mr. Deatherage. I have been assured that I will be offered an oppor- 
tunity to offer my evidence of this situation before the committee, and 
at that time it is rather an extensive and complex subject; it takes 
certain documentation; I don't want to make statements that I can't 
support witli documentation. The documentation which will be nec- 
essary to support my evidence — I have got about 2 tons of it in boxes, 
and i have got it where I can have a truck into it in 5 minutes on a 
telephone call and spread out here, and I could take you step by step 
and show you the whole situation, names of individuals, organizations, 
methods of financing, documentation, photostats of this and that anct 
the other thing, which support it all. 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. Deatherage, realizing as you do that this com- 
mittee is desirous of getting all of the facts in connection with sub- 
versive activities, but also realizing that this committee is not going 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3503 

to smear people b}^ havino; their names appear, would it be agreeable 
to you to submit these documents you have to our counsel and go over 
them with him and then put in the record such as you can substan- 
tiate? 

Mr. Deathekage. Well, I certainly am in agreement with doing that, 
but the only obstacle is that I have to earn a living. _ I haven't the 
money to bear the expense of compiling it and to get it into shape. 

Mr, Dempset. Well, we will take care of that, if you have got it. 

]Mr. Deatherage. I have got it. 

]\lr. Dempsey. All we ask you to do 

Mr. Deatherage (interposing). I will turn myself right over to the 
connnittee and every bit of documentation which I have. 

Mv. Df]mpsey. You can see why, in an open meeting, this commit- 
tee would not accept all these statements and put them in the record. 

Ml-. Deatherage. I appreciate that ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Dempsey. And the other would be agreeable to you? 

Mv. Deatherage. Yes, sir; I will help the committee in any way 
1 can. 

The Chairman. Where is your evidence, in Atlanta ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; in the hills of West Virginia, where nobody 
can find it except myself. 

The Chairman. Well, we will be very glad to have our investi- 
gators and attorney go over every bit of the evidence you have and 
any reliable evidence that you have got, it doesn't make any difference 
to us who is affected. This is not a partisan committee and we don't 
care who is affected. We want the truth and if it is the truth it 
doesn't make any difference to us who is involved in any disclosure, 
if the facts will back it up. So we will certainly see that all the 
information you have is checked over carefully by our investigators 
and attorneys, followed out and ascertained if there is foundation 
for it, and if there is, regardless of who is involved, it will be used 
by this committee. 

Mr. Deatherage. I might add that I am of a very studious nature 
and I have tried to be exact. I think I am in touch with sources 
of information all over the United States where I can get you any- 
thing you want. If I don't actually have certain photostats, I can 
get them, or know where to get them, but the whole object, the whole 
thing against that in the past, to me, has been he fact that nickels 
and dimes from working men and myself are the only money we 
have ever had. 

The Chairman. Mr. Deatherage, you have studied the Communist 
very carefully, haven't you? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What is the difference in the way in which they 
work and the way in which your organization and similar organiza- 
tions to yours work ? 

]\Ir. Deatherage. Well 

The Chairman. You kee]3 your membership lists secret, you say 
that you are under oath that you can't divulf';e them — the Com- 
munists join under fictitious names and they have no lists — so in that 
respect you are similar? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, there is a good reason for that, Mr. Chair- 
man. I was fired from a job that I worked 25 years to get, where 
I made $10,000 a year, because I had entered into this fisht. The 



3504 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Carbide & Carbon Chemical Co. said to me, "You either stop fightinjr 
this thing or you are out. 

The Chairman. And you felt embittered about that? 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; I did not feel embittered about it, they had 
that privilege because I realized their connections, but when they 
started to boycott me, to prevent me from getting a position any place 
else, that was why I became embittered. 

The Chairman. Wliat I am trying to get at, you see, here is your 
movement and here is the Communist movement; now when we put 
them both side by side, what do we find? Both of you keep your 
membership lists secret. You say that the other side is going to start 
war, and, therefore, it is necessary for you to have trained men to 
get ready. That is their strength, they have a vanguard, a trained 
leadership, and penetrate other organizations, set up front organiza- 
tions. Do you undertake to do that, too? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I have been inside the Communist Party 
to find out what they are doing, sure. 

The Chairman. You have gotten inside their party? Is it your 
idea to go into patriotic organizations, as the Communists go into the 
labor movement — do you have the same strategy? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; we don't, we try to convert them to our point 
of view, but make no attempt at penetration. 

The Chairman. Do you destroy your files or are you frank and 
willing for the committee to see everything that you have? The 
reason that I ask that is because you have been very frank in your 
testimony before this committee. Do you have all your files, letters, 
written by you to people, and letters you have received ? 

Mr. Deatherage. All the letters? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; I burn them up. 

The Chairman. You run right into the same strategy the Com- 
munists use — they burn theirs. 

Mr. Deatherage. I was smeared in Life magazine just recently, a 
lot of lies, and the basis of those lies was Mr. Metcalfe who worked 
for this committee, who distorted his testimony, and who I want to 
have an opportunity to explain what he did down there to me. 

All right, there was a man by the name of Mills, from Sedalia, Mo., 
who w^rote a letter to Life, and they published it, in which it said 
that "Thank God for men like Deatherage and Winrod", and things 
like that. Immediately that was published, he was threatened with 
his life. One fellow said, "I have got two automatics, and I am 
going to use them on you". 

He is a doctor. They came down and tore the sign from his house. 
They busted his windows, they abused him in every possible way. 

Well now, I am not fair to my membership if I got a man that is, 
say, working on W. P. A., and who can't get his job unless he got 
it through the AVorkers Alliance, he is out if they don't o. k. him — 
well, am I going to take the bread out of his mouth, which is what 
will happen if I let his name out, and that will keep his children 
from eating. I can't do that. 

The Chairman. Well, the Communists have always advocated the 
overthrow of the Government by force and violence, haven't they ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3505 

The Chairman. Hasn't the application of force and the achieve- 
ment of their objectives, been one of their time-honored or ancient 
beliefs? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Don't you express practically the same view when 
you say, "if necessary apply force"? 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; I don't ; I don't mean that ; I mean that I am 
going to apply force in defense, in self-defense. 

The Chairman. Well, what are the circumstances that would lead 
you to believe that you were justified in acting for defense; would 
you wait until there was an armed insurrection in the United States? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

Tlie Chairman. You would wait until the leftist group actually 
took the field before you would advocate the use of force to repel 
them ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right ; exactly. 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. Deatherage, do you mean to say that before a 
man can get a job, a relief job, on W. P. A., he must be certified by 
the AVorkers Alliance? 

Mv. Deatherage. I don't say that that is true 100 percent, but it 
is true in the majority of cases. 

Mr. Dempsey. Well, when you say the majority of cases, are you 
referring to certain States, certain localities? You certainly don't 
mean throughout the Nation? 

Mr. Deatherage. I mean throughout the Nation; that the influ- 
ence of the Workers Alliance is such that if one of my members is 
known as an extreme rightist and in opposition to their policy, he 
isn't going to last any time ; he is out. 

The Chairman. Is that based on definite evidence that you have 

got- 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir ; and definite evidence which I think you 

have got. 

The Chairman. Do you consider the Workers Alliance as con- 
trolled by the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You think that it is a front for the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

The Chairman. Have you got any evidence to show^ that? 

Mr. Deatherage. It depends on what you call evidence. Cer- 
tainly Benjamin is a member of the Communist Party; he is a leader; 
he admits it before this committee. All the actions of Dave Lasser 
are indicative of the same thing. 

Mr. Dempsey. How many States do you have information about, 
Mr. Deatherage, with reference to the Workers Alliance ; do you have 
anything about in New Mexico? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I couldn't tell you without checking into it. 

My. Voorhis. Mr. Deatherage, I have had a great many people 
that I know that have had to get W. P. A. jobs, I suppose thousands 
of people. I never ran into anything like that in my life. 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, we can give you some evidence on it; put it 
in the i-ecord. 

The Chairman. You are willing to furnish this committee with 
evidence to that effect ? 



3506 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What other Communist front organization have 
you run into ; do you have any evidence on the American League for 
Peace and Democracy ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes ; ^ye have plenty on that. 

The Chairman. Do you consider that a front organization ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes ; I do. 

The Chairman. What evidence do you have showing that fact'? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I have their own publications, their own 
rosters, and a great deal of information that is indicative of that fact. 

Mr. Dempsey. Do you ever take into account the action of these 
organizations; that sometimes speaks, too, doesn't it? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

The Chairman. And the League for Peace and Democracy — their 
action hasn't convinced you of that, has it? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, if you know the Communist activities, you 
know that their basis of operations is setting up fronts in which they 
deny any affiliation. 

To get actually right down — as Mr. Matthews, I believe, here testi- 
fied — that he got Mr. Browder, come over there and gave him the 
money, to get the numbers of the bills and the date on which the bills 
were passed, and all that sort of thing, is a difficult matter for us. 
That is a job for an outfit such as this committee. 

Mr. VooRHis. But. Mr. Deatherage, you realize, I suppose, in view 
of the study you have made of this question, that whereas once the 
Communists did openly advocate a revolution by force, that they now 
on the whole deny that, and they say practically the same thing that 
you say — that they believe that someone else is going to start some- 
thing and that they are going to have to defend themselves. In other 
words, they say almost exactly the same thing you do about just liow 
this violence is going to take place. Now, do you think that is true or 
not? 

Mr. Deatherage. I say that in all of my study of the Communist 
activities in Euro]3e, that their tactics never change; they always go 
the same way. You can see 6 months in advance just exactly what 
they ai'e going to do. 

Mr. VooRHis. I am trying to see whether we can tell 6 months in 
advance what anybody else is going to do or not. 

The thing that I am impressed with, and that has been brought 
out already in the testimony here, is the fact that there may be the 
great mass of American people here in the middle avIio are going to 
be caught between two conflicting kinds of propaganda, each of which 
denies that, so far as the people giving it out themselves are concerned, 
that they have any intention of using violence in an attempt to change 
our form of government; but where the effect of such ])ropoganda 
is constantly and always to divide the ]3eo])le who really believe in 
democracy, in the middle, into two conflicting groups, then I think 
this committee is concerned al)out that situation very deeply. 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, they may be concerned, Mr. Congressman; 
but how can they prevent it ? 

Mr. VooRHis. Well, we think maybe we can help to prevent it by 
bringing out the facts regarding these matters; that is the only func- 
tion that this conmiittee has. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3507 

Mr. Deatherage. I say if tliey are published in the press and the 
press is not distorted and the truth is tokl, if they didn't suppress the 
news the American people would settle this proposition for themselves. 

Mr. VooRHis. But you see the committee's problem arises where 
yon have a group of people who say that they are not interested in 
anything of a violent nature, and then yon say — well, a particular 
organization or a group really is; they are lying to yon — don't you see? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. Now, then, on the other hand, it seems to me that 
you have told us almost the same sort of thing that some of the other 
people on the other extreme might have said — namely, that you don't 
want violence ; you are not interested in it, but you are going to be pre- 
pared for it if it comes ; and don't you think that the more influence you 
can bring to bear upon the people of this country to make them think 
that a resort to violence is going to be necessary that the more likely 
the more danger there is of it actually taking place? Don't you think 
that is a pretty dangerous sort of a thing to say? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, there is some logic, T admit, in your state- 
ment, but I have back in my mind a situation that you had in Spain. 
Now, the people let this thing go, and they let it go, and they let it go, 
and finally it got in such a position that there wasn't anything else to 
do but cut each others' throats. 

Now, how did that come about? It came about through apathy, 
distortion, and suppression of the news, and people believing, "Well, 
it can't happen here." They let the thing ride. Now, how can you 
get it out ? 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Deatherage, you made a very careful 
study of comnuniistic activities in this country over the past 5 years? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I have a fairly decent knowledge of it, I 
think. I think there are other men who know more about it than I do. 
I have made enough study of it that I know what the objectives are. 

The Chahiman. Do you think that directly and indirectly they have 
many people lined up with them? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, they have a fairly large membership; I 
think you have gone into that in your testimony here, but that isn't 
the danger in this country. The danger here is from tbe liberal, the 
fellow who calls himself a liberal. 

The Chairman. What do you mean ? 

Mr. Deatherage. The fellow traveler. For every Connnunist there 
are about 25 or 30 fellows more or less sympathetic with him, and they 
pave the way ; they did it in Russia and have done it in every nation ; 
and then the poor suckers were caught between two fires. 

I will give you an example of that. A newspaperman came to me 
in St. Albans by the name of Ray Tozer, of the Kansas City Star and 
the Post, and I had an interview with him; and we got to talking 
about what was going to happen, and he said to me, "I don't think 
I have got very long to live." 

I said, "Is that so; what makes you believe that?" 

"Well," he said, "I am a liberal" Avriter, and I know^ that both sides 
have got me listed, and they will liquidate me. The fact of the matter 
is that Saltzman, the district organizer, told me that I was one of the 
first guys they were going to bump off when this thing started." 



3508 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. VooRHis. It happens that I talked with the same gentleman, and 
he told me that you told him that you felt the same way about him; 
is that right ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Let me get tn that. I wag godngto bring that out. 
So I said to him, "All right, suppose you had a revolution started in 
this country and there was internal conflict, you had a break down of 
constitutional law, and it was every man for himself, like it is over in 
Spain. We are assuming that situation, that it has broken down." 
1 said, "I have no respect for you ; I have got respect for the man — 
even if he is a Communist — who will stand up and fight for his prin- 
ciples, but if he hasn't got guts enough to stand up for the things he 
is trying to do, I have no respect for him, and I have no respect for 
you, and if there is a break down in constitutional law in this country, 
and it is every man for himself and the devil take the hindmost, I 
would take you and put you behind a barbed-wire fence and give you 
a drumhead court martial, and you wouldn't last longer than it took 
jou to pull the hat off your head." 

The Chairman. Isn't it conceivable that some people, in fighting for 
their principles, may want to fight simply just for democracy and 
justice and decency? What are you going to do with the people who 
want to fight for that. Is it necessary that they must fight on one 
extreme or the other in order to fight for something ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Getting away from theory and ideals and possi- 
bilities, and dealing only with practicabilities, you had a situation in 
Spain exactly that way. The fellow was told that every man up to 30 
should be in the trenches tomorrow morning at 7 o'clock to be shot. 
Franco did the same thing. The Communists or Loyalists, or what- 
ever you call them, did the same thing. They were the people who were 
in the middle. 

The Chairman. That is right ; but there was a long background of 
propaganda behind that, it seems to me, and I am concerned lest the 
continuous hammering away at the fact that the people have got to 
choose sides, they have got to go to one extreme or the other, will lead 
to the very thing which you profess not to want but for which you 
prepare ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I say this : Tliere is no necessity for either 
side — I mean it is coming to pass — if we can awaken the American 
people to facts and what is going on, and get rid of their apathy and 

let them stand up and be 

The Chairman (interposing). But isn't the thing that we have to 
awaken them to, Mr. Deatherage, a vigorous employment of consti- 
tutional democracy rather than to awaken them to a hatred of a cer- 
tain group of people or to the idea that they must prepare and arm 
themselves for conflict? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I don't like the word "democracy" because 
the Communists use it so much. 

The Chairman. Don't you think that the history of Europe has 
shown pretty clearly that one brand of hatred always begets another 
brand, and w^e will start out, for instance, with class hatred when you 
hate people because they happen to have a little more property than 
other people. And you start promoting that kind of bigotry all over 
the country, and that soon goes to religious and racial hatred, and 



^ UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3509 

finally the whole country is split into two armed camps and is de- 
stroyed through that hatred ; isn't that true ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Sure. 

The Chairman. Don't you tliink that the man who is promoting one 
brand of hatred is just as bad as the man who is promoting another? 
What is the difference between i)icking out a business group, let us 
say, and condenming them, saying that they are all pirates, blood- 
suckers, they are no good — what is the difference between doing that 
and picking- out a religious group and saying that they are no good ? 
Isn't the same principle involved in both cases? 

Mr. Deatherage. Absolutely, in that illustration. 

The Chairman. If a man is going to be tolerant, he has got to be 
tolerant with respect to all groups? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

The Chairman. And isn't it true that we have in this country to a 
large extent men tolerant in one direction but very intolerant in an- 
other ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, here is the reason for that, and it is recog- 
nized by Communists as well as ourselves. 

In the first place, take the 2,000,000 men in the United States Army 
during the war. Their I. Q. was around 12 to 14 — 14 years of age. 
Those are facts. Now, those men have no understanding of things by 
reason, they act by emotion. 

Now, I can get up in my post, I have got 200 men, and I can take any 
■concrete example or piece of legislation or anything else, and I can 
talk to them until I am deaf. All right, now they can listen to me for 
an hour, they don't get that, and then they break up, they go down- . 
stairs and each one of them wnll maybe get four or five beers, and then 
all they want is trouble, tliey want action, they want to break some- 
body's windows or shoot somebody, and especially that bunch of wild 
mountaineers. The biggest trouble is to keep them under blankets. 

You see what I mean, they can't reason, and they can't reason be- 
cause they don't have the intelligence to reason and be tolerant. 

The Chairman. Well, of course that gets back to the very point that 
I am saying, that there would be no such thing as tolerance in this 
country unless it is applied impartially with respect to every group, 
isn't that right ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

The Chairman. AVhat is the difference, if you pick out a race, no 
matter what the race is, the German race, the Italian race, or the 
Jewish, and condemn them; start out with a big anti-Italian or anti- 
Oerman campaign — aren't you violating the very basic principles 
upon which the Republic is established ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

The Chairman. And don't you think further, if you step in the 
other direction, the Communist direction and radical direction, and 
say that you are going to condemn, say, all the business people in the 
country, they are all scoundrels, aren't you guilty of the same amount 
•of intolerance? 

Mr. Deatherage. Absolutely. 

The Chairman. And in the end you are promoting hatred in the 
country just like they did in Russia and Germany and Italy, that is 



3510 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

all it was in Germany, isn't it, didn't tliey promote it merely as a 
means of establishing dictatorship ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, that came about, of course, in a gradual way. 

The Chairman. But that was what enabled Hitler to bring his fol- 
lowers together, wasn't it, it was the appeal to their prejudice that 
was in their bosoms, wasn't it ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I wouldn't say that in the beginning. I have a 
copy of Hitler's original program that he printed in Munich in 1922. 

The Chairman. The German Workers Party ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; and there is nothing anti-Jew^ in it in any 
place. 

The Chairman. What actually brought him the followers, brought 
the people flocking to him, was the feeling of hatred that spread over 
Germany, wasn't it ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I would agree with you. 

The Chairman. You don't think that had anything to do with it? 

Mr. Deatherage. The anti-Jew movement in Germany was iso- 
lated to two or three political parties, it wasn't widespread over the 
populace. 

The Chairman. Not only anti-Jew but antibusiness or anti any- 
thing else, hasn't that been almost the universal history of all these 
countries that have gone into dictatorship? Take Russia, didn't 
they propagandize constantly against a class of people, treating them 
as a class, not recognizing the good ones from the bad ones, but 
condemning the whole class? Wasn't that spirit of promotion of 
that responsible for the success of the Communist Party which num- 
bered less than 1 percent of the population of Russia ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Oh, yes ; that is true. 

The Chairman. Well, on the other hand, Germany used hatred 
just in a ditferent form, in a different brand, isn't that a fact? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, that came about in the later stages, it 
wasn't in the beginning. 

The Chairman. Well, whether it came about first or last, won't you 
agree that the first preparation to make for dictatorship is the 
promotion of hatred, whatever form it assumes? You never heard 
of a dictator rising to power through messages of love and under- 
standing, did you? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, no; I would say no. Jesus Christ has 
been trying to do that for 2,000 years and he hasn't gotten away 
with it. 

Mr. Whitley. Continuing this letter : 

Of course, that business of resigning cannot be suggested by the General,, 
but it might be done through other sources witli which you have contact. 

That is the business of the men in the Reserve officers' association 
or the active service units possibly resigning to go through with this 
organization that you and the General were discussing? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, that was my suggestion to Campbell. I 
never discussed that with the General. 

Mr. Whitley, (continuing). 

You will note from the General's speech, a copy of which was sent you, 
that the plan is to do this job peacefully, and liy force if that becomes- 
necessary. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3511 

The job being to set up this Nation-wide organization? 

Mr, Deatherage. Yes ; whose purpose is the retention of the ideals 
upon which this Republic was founded. 

The Chairman. Right at that point, if I may interrupt? 

Don't you believe that our wliole democratic Government rests 
upon one thing, and that is the protection of the fundamental rights 
of each individual in the country, regardless of his race or religion 
or economic condition? Don't you think that each man, no matter 
how humble he is or what his race is, has certain fundamental rights 
guaranteed to him by the Constitution? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes ; I do. 

The Chairman. Don't you agree that if you take away the rights 
from any individual on any excuse, on any ground whatever, you 
take away those fundamental rights, you have dealt a serious blow 
to the whole system of the Government we have ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I will agree with that. 

The Chairman. And won't you agree that if you begin to make 
a distinction, it isn't a question of this race or that race, it comes to a 
question of the fundamentals? If you begin to make a distinction, 
saying that one man shall enjoy his fundamental rights, but another 
shall not, on account of his race, color, creed, or economic conditions, 
then you are destroying the whole basis upon which our system of 
government is based; isn't that right? 

Mr. Deatherage. I would only make one dissention, in that you 
have an Asiatic exclusion law. 

The Chairman. That is a matter of immigration. We have a 
right to keep out people altogether if we want to. I am talking 
about those citizens in the United States who have the protection of 
the Constitution. You, are bound to concede that each individual, 
whether he is a Jew or a Gentile or a Catholic or a Protestant or 
what not, must be, if he is' an American citizen, protected in the en- 
joyment of his fundamental rights, the same as evei-yone else, isn't 
that right? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right, except I am bigoted enough to 
believe in white supremacy in the South. 

The Chairman. With that exception you agree with the statement? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

The Chairman. Then what do you mean when you make generali- 
ties like anti-Jewish or anti this or that — aren't you classifying, 
aren't you grouping without saying which one is the one to blame, 
naming them, don't you think it is better to condemn a man on ac- 
count of his misdeeds, rather than upon the race to which he belongs ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes: I would say so. 

The Chairman. Wouldn't it be better now — you are talking very 
frankly to this committee — wouldn't it be better, if you have some 
evidence against a man, regardless of whether he is a Jew^ or a Gentile, 
or who he is, if he is a bad man and has done something wrong, then 
name the man ? Wouldn't that be a better way of proceeding in any 
case ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right; but if you are trying to pin me 
down 

The Chairman (interposing). I am not trying to pin you down. 

94931— 39— vol. 5 22 



3512 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Deathfrage. Here is what I mean. If you want an explana- 
tion of this Jewish question as I see it, I can give that to you. What 
we mean wlien we say tlie Jewish question 

Tlie Chairman (interposino). I am now askino; you if you a^ree 
with the statements that I made, that each man ought to be judged 
by his own conduct ? 

Mv. Deatherage. That is right. 

Tlie Chairman. Tliat is the only American way, isn't it? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

The Chairman. And on any other basis this country will fall ; isn't 
that right ? 

iNIr. Deatherage. I agree with you 100 percent. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

You will note from the general's speech, a copy of which was sent you, that 
the plan is to do this job peacefully, and by force if that becomes necessary. 

That sentence implies to me the suggestion of aggressive force, Mr. 
Deatherage. Did you mean that ? 

Mr. Deatherage. You ask General Moseley what he meant. He 
said that publicly in a speech. He is going to testify, and I would 
rather he would say himself. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

He will go through if it takes everything that he has. He does not yet quite 
realize the tremendous forces that are against him, but after his speech in New 
York on the same platform with Father Coughlin, he will be attacked from 
every quarter, this alone showing him the strength of the enemy. 

Did he make that speech from the platform with Father Coughlin? 
Mr. Deatherage. No; he did not. 
Mr. AVhitley. Why didn't he do that ? 
Mr. Deatherage, I couldn't tell you. 
Mr. Whitley. He had planned to make the speech ? 
Mr. Deatherage. There w^ere some preliminary plans made, and 
I don't know^ why they fell through. You can ask him that. 
Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

I suggest to you that in your spare time you make a list of leaders in the 
Nation that you are sure of, that this might be presented to the General when 
the time is ripe. 

By that you mean when the time is ripe for the organization? 
Mr. Deatherage. The time is ripe for me to say, "Well, here are 
some fellows that you can depend on." 
Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

I will do the same, and between the three of us we can decide on them. 

Especially in the preliminary plans for this Nation-wide organi- 
zation you, at least, were planning for you and the General and Mr. 
Campbell to work out the preliminary details and plans? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I will answer that this w\ay. The General 
had no knowledge, or practically no knowledge, at the time I first 
contacted him, of the type, number, and extent and power and trust- 
worthiness of any organizations in the United States. He thought 
that if an organization was a patriotic organization, that they were 
all fine, O. K., and that everything was lovely. And I took it on 
myself as my responsibility to get a hold of Campbell because I 
knew of his past experience and because, in spite of all the things 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3513 

that he had done, which in a minor way I didn't agree with, sub- 
stantially he and I agreed, and we thought, or I thought, that I 
could get Campbell there and we could present thi« thing to the 
Oeneral and naturiJly the human element came into it that I would 
try to convince hiin to my way of thinking. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, the general didn't realize that some 
of these groups, at least, had unworthy motives or possibly financial 
objectives? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well — and then some of them were violently on 
the racial prejudice side, which I knew he wouldn't agree with. I 
knew he wouldn't agree with the policies of a great many of them. 
As a nuitter of fact, the way it has turned out all the advice that I 
have given to the general he has absorbed it like a blotter and said 
nothing. ^IHiat he thinks today I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). Mr. Deatherage: 

I am sure that he will not select them until we have a chance to put the old 
G-2 on them. 

That means to check up on them, investigate them? 
Mr. Deatherage. Intelligence; yes. 
Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

Right after the first of the year it is intention to call a small conference, 
say ahout 2.5, in some place as Chicago, quietly, and discuss the matter of what 
we are going to do about this thiug. 

Now, you say "right after the first of the year." This letter was 
written in December 1938. Was this Chicago plan that you sug- 
gested here anything to do with the conference which w^as actually 
held in Chicago the early part of 1939? 

Mr. Deatherage. Absolutely not; that conference that I suggested 
was to take leaders from agriculture, from the labor unions, from all 
classes of life, to make up their program. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

These will not be the organization leaders, but leaders of the main groups 
throughout the Nation — Father Coughlin. , , of the , 

of the , as well as other veteran leaders, of the , 

of the — (names and connections omitted at the direction of the 

chairman) — in all. men who are heads of large groups on our side of the fence. 
Out of that will come only a program — the rest we will do on the basis of what 
the general thinks can be done at the moment. Then he will get the temper 
of these men. 

The idea you had in mind in suggesting this conference was to 
give the General a chance to look over these leaders whom you were 
going to suggest be present ? 

Mr. Deatherage. The idea was that, of course, he would get 
acquainted with them, and get their viewpoint, and they would 
make up a ju'ogram, I mean not accept my program, but make a 
program of their own. 

Air. Whitley (continuing) : 

In my opinion — he will find most of them pussyfooting the issue, and that 
it will end in his having to take the hull by the horns, and go to town on 
his own. However, you could not convince him of that now — he will have to 
go through with it himself. 

I will send you the list when it is decided on, so that you can tell him what 
you know about each one — qualifying them as far as we can before they are 
brought in. 



3514 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

It was just a coincidence, in other words, Mr. Deatherage, that 
you suggested this Chicago conference in your letter to Mr. Camp- 
bell in December 1938, and that such a conference was actually held,, 
or a similar conference at least, in January 1939? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; they had absolutely no connection. 

Mji'. Whitley. That was just a coincidence? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

About your G2 reports. 

Are you referring to the music scores? 
Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 
Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

I necessarily do not wish to know your source- — but if we are to act on that 
information, we must be certain for the General's salie that we are right and 
do not slip. If you are absolutely certain that none of this is rumor — that 
he is safe on proceeding on that information, that is all that we need to know. 
You realize what would happen to our standing if we went ahead and then 
found that we were barking up the wrong tree. It would discredit the General 
nationally, and ruin us as well. Facts should be established as facts — and if 
rumors, we should qualify them as such — stating that they need confirmation. 
In the past it did not make a great deal of difference — now it may be life 
or death to the movement, and possibly the people in it. 

You state there that in the past the verification of facts or the 
basing of statements or actions on evidence, didn't make so much 
difference, but that the situation is different now. Wliat caused that 
change whereby you had to sup])ort your statements by evidence, and 
not just base them on rumor or hearsay? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I meant by that that all of the organiza- 
tions in the United States put out information and certainly it wasn't 
important for us to take it upon ourselves to prove that what they 
were putting out was true, but if they were affiliated with the organi- 
zation, those facts had to be facts, and not rumor. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, in the past you have just accepted 
the information or the literature that was sent out by these other 
groups without attempting to check it or question it? 

Mr. Deatherage. Absoluely not, when I put anything down I am 
going to be fairly certain in my own opinion, as certain as I can, 
that those things are true, but I am not going to take it upon myself 
to get after Mr. Pelley and say to Mr. Pelley, "Now this thing is all 
wrong and is haywire," because I wouldn't have the time to do it, 
and it is not my business. They would resent it. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

We are interested in this fellow Dies for instance. I believe that lie is 
wrong, for he is attempting the old smear — refusing to give me a chance on the 
stand, or anyone else that he feels will bring this tiling out in the open. We 
need to get him and get him right. 

Would you like to enlarge on that statement ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I wrote my first letter to this committee on June 
14, 1938, in which I requested an opportunity to appear, and said I 
would offer my services. I wrote them 8 or 10 different other times, 
the copies of the correspondence being in my files. I never got re- 
plies. I sent in evidence to the committee just to see what they would 
do with it. I never got any acknowledgment. I never got it back. 
I tried rough-shod tactics, to get a little tough, to se? if I could make 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 35 15 

them macl enough to call me on the stand, and fbially I resorted to the 
age-old method of slapping Mr. Dies with a personal telegram, and the 
background of that was to see if I could get him red behind the ears 
so that he would call me on the stand. And what I refer to is, in all 
seriousness, organizations which were called in your reports and 
testified, or were stated in the press — whether Mr. Dies actually said 
that most of them were rackets, and I personally know that they were 
absolutely Christian gentlemen, who sacrificed their homes, resources, 
funds, and fortunes and everything else, and due to the fact that 
they weren't called in their own defense and all that information was 
put out against them, men lost their jobs, they lost confidence and 
lost everything. 

The Chairman. Didn't you yourself condemn some of these or- 
ganizations in your letters here, you said that they weren't any good? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well — ;— 

The Chairman (interposing). I mean- 



Mr. Deatherage (interposing). I never condemned them as rackets. 

The Chairman. You condemn them in just about as strong 
language; didn't you warn about certain men in these movements? 

Mr. Deatherage. I did. 

The Chairman. Now, you are very frank about this, isn't it a fact 
that you have come in contact with a good many of these fellows that 
you really believe are in this thing purely for what money they can get 
out of it, don't you really think that? 

Mr. Deatherage. I really wouldn't say that I could name two 
organizations in the United States 

The Chairman (interposing). Why did you condemn these various 
ones in your letters ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Because they were hooked up underground with 
the Communist Party, with the enemy. 

The Chairman. If you condemn them, now you are objecting that 
we condemn them, and you are criticizing us for condemning them, 
people you have condemned, many of them. 

Mr. Deatherage. I condemn you, Mr. Dies, because you didn't give 
them an opportunity to defend themselves. When you charge a man 
with a thing publicly, the first thing is to give him an opportunity to 
get on the stand and say it is true or it isn't. 

The Chairman. They are all going to have ample opportunity to 
appear here. 

Mr. Deatherage. I hope they are. 

The Chairman. You see we run into a situation, for instance, such 
as this. We wired General Moseley promptly. We didn't bring his 
name in. The correspondence brought his name into the picture. We 
wired him promptly to come here and testify- if he desired to be heard 
in order to accord him an opportunity to answer this. 

Now the General says that he is in Atlanta and he won't show up 
this week. Well, manifestly this committee can't sit around here and 
w^ait for his convenience. We offered many people an opportiuiity to 
be here, and they refused to be heard, so that you will find that while 
there may be instances here and there of those who are willing to come 
with clean hands and be frank about this thing, you will find that we 
will run into the same difficulty that we have to slap a subpena on them 
and compel them to come here ; they are not anxious to be heard. I 



3516 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

don't say that in your case because you manifested a prompt attitude 
to be heard when we wired you this time, but I merely cite General 
Moseley's case to you to show the situation that plans had been made 
to hear him this week, he is in Atlanta and has had ample opportunity 
to come here. We are not going; to sit around here indefinitely to hear 
him, although we are going to hear him before this thing concludes ; 
that is, before the investigation concludes, and it is our purpose to 
hear everyone tjiat has any material information. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Deatherage, in order to clear the record, you 
staled a moment ago that your correspondence or your letters to the 
committee last summer or last fall were never acknowledged, that you 
never heard anything at all fi'om the committee. 

Mr. Deatherage. I think I had one letter ; I have the file here. 

Mr. Whitley. I was just going to read you a copy of a letter dated 
June 18, which was addressed to you by the committee : 

My De:ar Mr. Deuthbr^^ge : This is to acknowledge receipt of your letter of 
June 14, to Mr. Dickstein, who has nothing to do with our committee, he is not 
a member and he is not identified witli it. We are going to make a thorough and 
complete investigation of all subversive activities in the United States, including 
communism. Communism is, of course, one of the phases of our investigation. 
I will welcome any information that you can furnish the committee. 
Sincerely yours, 



So that you have to qualify your statement, Mr. Deatherage, that 
the committee completely ignored your request? 

Mr. Deatherage. Except that one letter; and I followed that up 
immediately and said that I w^ould be glad to do this or that to help 
the committee; and then I followed it by a request to appear, and 
I never got any answer. 

Mr. Whitley. The fact remains that you are here? 

IVfr. Deatherage. Oh, yes; I am here all right. 

Mr. Whitley. And have an opportunity to express yourself? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; but I regret that I had to take the steps 
that I thought were necessary to get myself here. 

Mr. Whitley. Continuing, Mr. Deatherage: 

Any information that you have — send it direct to the general, and if he feels 
that he wants to show it to me, he will do so. 

Mike will not be in the picture. He cannot be trusted in this work — for he 
is the type of an Irishman that would do almost anything for money. 

You have already identified Mike, I believe, as Mike Ahern? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

No soap as far as I am concerned. Kelly is taking an active part in Ne-n 
York and is hooked up with a half dozen outfits. 

I believe you have also identified Kelly for us ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

I wish you would c(v. fi'-m to the general — what you know al out hi"i. M^jor 
G in Huntington has already done so. We must not let that fellow near him, 
as I see it. 

Who is Major G in Huntington? 
Mr. Deatherage. Major Griffith, a Reserve officer. 
Mr. Whitley. Have you had contacts or have you cooperated with 
him? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3517 

Mr. Deatherage. Only about 3 years ag-o when he was in charge of 
subversive activities for the Reserve officers I gave him information, 
and the disposition of that information I don't know. 

Mr. AVhitley (continuing) : 

Regarding yonr questions. It isi true that Hull's wife is Jewish and that she 
has a family connection with Kuhn-Loeb. I have her record at home. 

I do not know anything nuich of Landon's connections, except in a general 
way — that he and the Jews combined to lick Winrod, and that he is out. M has 
no use for him. 

You are referring to the campaign out there in which Winrod was 
defeated, in Kansas ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 
Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

Don't know anything about White intimately, except that he is a pal of the 
Jews and is thoroughly wrong. Winrod can tell us in detail about both of them. 

I believe, as you do, that it will take military action to get this gang out, and 
the organization must be built around a propaganda organization now that can 
in a few hours be turned into a militant fighting force. That'.si the idea of the 
boss also — but must be kept on the Q T. 

By the "boss" you mean General Moseley ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you would build up this Nation-wide 
propaganda machine that can be turned overnight into a military 
organization if necessary? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing) : 

As far as the program is concerned, that is something else. We do not need 
fascism or nazi-ism, that is true ; but to my mind we will have fascism — call it 
what you may — for there can be no solution to this except a disciplined force 
under central leadership and an economic program that will put these millions 
back to work and keep them there. 

So you are saying that while we can't have fascism or nazi-ism as 
such, in effect we have got to have the same thing, central control, to 
handle this situation ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes ; extreme nationalism. 

Mr. Whitley. Extreme nationalism? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you prefer to call it that instead of 
putting the label of nazi-ism or fascism on it, but in effect it is the 
same type of an operation ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, when I say "fascism" or "nazi-ism," I don't 
refer to it in the colloquial way as the press does, branding every crack- 
pot schemer in the world as a Fascist or a Nazi, but it is a corporate 
state — for instance, it is more or less the guild system, as advocated 
by the Catholic action. 

The Chairman. You are in favor of that, are you ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I am in favor of that as an antidote, as a last 
resort, between that and communism. 

The Chairman. How does that read ? 

Mr. Whitley (reading) : 

As far as the program is concerned, that is something else. We do not need 
fascism or nazi-ism, that is true — but to my mind we will have fascism, call it 
what you may 

The Chairman. In other words, you are saying there that in your 
opinion we are going to have fascism in the United States ? 



3518 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Deatherage. I say you don't need it, but in my opinion that 
is what you are going to come to, not because you want it but be- 
cause you can't help it. 

The Chairman. Now in that connection, what is the explanation of 
your conduct? I mean, here you issue certain pamphlets, and make 
certain statements, and you attack people of a certain race, we will 
say. Mr. Campbell did the same thing. Mr. Gilbert did the same 
thing. We find expressions from all of you in which you either 
sympathize with fascism or you predict that fascism is inevitable. 
Wliat is the tie-up between the mental attitude of this thing? 
Doesn't that indicate to you that this racial prejudice that I have 
been talking about inevitably leads to some form of fascism ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; I wouldn't say that, Mr. Dies; I would say 
that the idea of communism, the acceptance of it, and the ])lanned 
program for turning this country into — it is my conviction that 
there is a planned program to turn this country into a soviet. Now, 
all of my statements are ])redicated on the fact that there is a pro- 
gram that is being undertaken. 

The Chairman. You mean that the Communist Party and their 
allied groups and sympathizers would like to turn America into a 
soviet union. They admit that; there is no argument about that. 

Mr. Deatherage. That is what they are doing. 

The Chairman. The point is that here you are on the other side. 
I want to be very fair with you. The ex]:)lanation I am trying to 
get is that in every instance when you go into this thing, here was 
Mr. Campbell disseminating antiracial propaganda. Here was Mr. 
Gilbert participating. Here are you with statements in w^hich you 
condemn people as a whole. You don't qualify it in your letters or 
various statements. We find all of you expressing, either admira- 
tion for Hitler or Mussolini or, in your case, predicting that fascism 
is inevitable. What is the explanation of this tie-up here, this thing 
of having the two linked together, the belief in fascism and then 
you have the antiracial feelings? Doesn't that indicate to you that 
what this stirring up of race strife or class hatred must inevitably 
lead to is dictatorship, if it continues unchecked and gains wide 
adherence throughout the country? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; and it also indicates that if the interna- 
tional Jewry doesn't stop what they did over in Europe — yes; it is 
no use denying, Mr. Dies, that the Vv'hole of Europe is torn asunder 
on the very issue, and to deny that the issue exists, certainly is not 
intelligent action on the part of any man. To deny that tliis country 
today 

The Chairman (interposing). Wherever the racial issue hna arisen 
and become widespread, the residt has been dictatorship, hasn't it, 
always ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

The Chairman. Not only the Jews but the gentiles, the Catholics, 
and the Protestants, and everybody? 

Mr. Deatherage. I admit that ; yes. 

The Chairman. So what is to be gained by assuming that here 
is a minority over here and that you can go out by superior numbers 
and forcibly suppress them? All the other people are losing their 
liberty at the same time; they haven't gained anything. The same 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3519 

oppressive laws apply to them. The point I am tryino- to drive over 
to you is this: In bringing these letters and in disseminating this 
different material and so on and so forth, speaking of Jewish wars 
and of this and that, don't you feel that you are, whether inten- 
tionally or not, that nevertheless you are aiding in the promotion 
of the very conditions! in America which lead to dictatorship abroad, 
and don't you think that you are, we will say unintentionally, pro- 
moting one form of hatred, and here are the Communists, all busy 
j^romoting another brand, and the conflict develops between tw^o 
brands of hatred? 

Mr. Deatherage. What are we going to do, let the other fellow go- 
and don't do anything? 

Tlie Chairman. Don't you think if we remain faithful to our 
form of government, and the known principles of it, that that is the 
best answer for this whole thing? Why do you have to divide Amer- 
ica into an armed camp, what is the necessity for taking sides? 

Mr. Deatherage. We are forced to. 

The Chairman, Who is forcing you to do it ? 

Mr. De^^therage. Well, this is my opinion, whether you accept it 
as a fact or not, you have got the Communist movement all over the 
world, hooked up wath the financing and leadership of international 
Jewry. That is a fact which I can establish and I believe — if you 
will let me finish, please — you have got in this country the very same 
conditions you have in every country where it has ended up in a 
proletarian government. Now if we know that this administration, 
the bureaus in this administration, and a good deal of this evidence 
has come out in your own reports — and we do know this — are infil- 
trated with this thing, and the same methods and tactics that were 
used abroad, if I have any intelligence and if I can recognize the 
same thing that happened in other places, I look forward and fore- 
cast in my own mind what is going to happen in this country, and 
I say what is going to happen I don't want. 

The Chairman. Don't 3^011 see here is what I am trying to impress 
on you? The thing that astounds me is so many people believing- 
the very way you are talking, as reflected by, we will say. the mail 
I got here this morning. Now you are helping to spread this, you 
say you are sincere. We will assume that you are, because you have 
been frank with the committee. But don't you see that what you 
and others are doing in assuming that you are absolutely sincere,, 
that you want to combat communism, and we are all just as anxious 
about it as you are, or anyone else, but assuming that you are sin- 
cere, you are spreading information that is causing many people to 
believe it, and if it goes far enough, if people in this country are' 
actually convinced that here is a race of people who are controlling 
America and trying to absolutely destroy our freedom, then you are 
going to rush headlong into the same situation that Europe is in, 
and you will not gain from it, you will become a slave like everybody 
else will be, you won't be in any more advantageous position than 
the Jew will or the Catholic will or anybody else, because in Ger- 
many everyone has to obey the dictator. 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, that may be true ; we have a difference of 
opinion as to what is going on, and what the inevitable result is 
going to be. There is this certainty, that we can't deny the fact 
that this country right now, underground, is on fire. 



3520 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Doii"'t you think that we have got a form of 
government that is infinitely superior to fascism or communism? 

Mr. Deatherage. Absolutely. 

The Chairman. What is the necessity of making an issue between 
the Communists on the one hand and the Fascists on the other? 
Why don't you keep your issue, the issue between fundamental Amer- 
icanism, based upon tolerance, and the known principles that have 
^ome down to us, and all other forms? Wliy come in here and say 
that the inevitable issue must be fascism ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Because I believe that the present adm'nistration 
is communistically inclined, and is heading in that direction. 

The Chairman. That is just an opinion of yours. Assuming that 
you do believe that, where are you gaining anything by disseminat- 
ing this dynamite, we may say, because it is, and you reach many 
people who believe it, they see this thing and they think that it is 
about to happen, and you get everybody in a feverish state of mind, 
and you are liable to bring on the same situation in this country 
that was brought on abroad, if we don't have enough intelligent 
people to resist it. 

Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Deatherage, you said awhile ago, you made a 
statement that made a great appeal to me, you said that you didn't 
care what was done in this country so long as it was done by con- 
stitutional methods, by the people's use of the ballot, and that if, 
by means of our American constitutional methods, even if some re- 
sults, we will say in the matter of economic policy, that you didn't 
like, were achieved, that you would be perfectly willing to accept that 
because that was part of our form of government. Am I quoting you 
correctly ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Voorhis. You said that? 

Mr. Deatherage. I did. 

Mr. VooKHis. A minute ago you made a statement that to my 
mind is ridiculous, but never mind that, you said you thought that 
the present administration was communistically inclined. It was 
certainly democratically elected, wasn't it ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right, and I voted for Mr. Roosevelt 
myself in 1932. 

Mr. Voorhis. You wouldn't propose to combat that administra- 
tion or any other Democratic administration. Democratic or Repub- 
lican, or any other kind, that you didn't like, by any methods except 
ordinarily accepted political methods, would you? 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; I would combat the situation by any means 
Avithin my power as an individual American citizen and under the, 
law, but if I vote for a man on a platform and he turns right around 
and re]:)ucliates it, then I am not going to stick w^ith him. 

Mr. Voorhis. But I mean — I might say the same thing, but if I 
did I wouldn't mean that I was going to go out and try to start a 
movement that was going to be looking forward to fascism in 
America. If I said I wasn't going to stick with him I would mean 
that I was going to try to get him defeated in the future, or some- 
thing like that, is that what you would mean ? 

Mr. Deatherage. If I felt that if the changes that were being 
enacted and the things in my forecast of what was going to happen 
w^ould only result in a peaceful social revolution, even though it 



UN-AIMERICAN PROPAOANDA ACTIVITIES 3521 

repudiated the platform on which I voted, I would say all rio;ht, 
but my practical nature tells me that this sort of thing has always 
ended in disorder and violence. 

The Chairman. Then you have no faith in our democratic 
processes through the ballot? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; I do. 

The Chairman. Then why do you say that your practical experi- 
ence has shown you that you can never solve these things through 
the ballot 'i That is in effect the substance of your statement. You 
say your practical experience shows you that these things always 
have to be solved by force by revolutionary movements. 

Mr. Whitley. Now this letter from which I have been reading, 
you recognize this as your letter, and identify it, do you not? Do 
you want to look at it? 

]Mr. Deatherage. I will accept it, I remember enough about it. 

Mr. Whitley. Are there any other letters you want to be identi- 
fied for the record? 

Mr. Deatherage. I think they have all been identified properly. 

Mr. Whitley. I won't read the rest of this letter, there are a few 
more pages, but I think we have covered the principal portions of it, 
Mr. Deatherage. 

I want to ask you about the American Nationalist Confederation, 
when was that formed, or organized, and by whom? 

Mr. Deatherage. That was organized last year, I don't remember 
just when, by myself. 

Mr. Whitley. By yourself? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

INIr. Whitley. Is it a corporation? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir. 

jVIr. Whitley. Are you the head of the organization? 

Mr. Deatherage. Such organization as it is, it is a letterhead 
organization. 

Mr. AVhitley. It is a letterhead organization? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You are described as the president, I believe, of 
that organization? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. The headquarters of the organization are at St. 
Albans. W.Ya.? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have any local chapters or any individual 
membership ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; the structure of that organization was built 
for a purpose, for the purpose of establishing liaison between differ- 
ent other organizations in the United States which might have the 
same objectives. 

In other words, what I had in mind, if you will give me time to 
explain it. was just this. I knew that the time was going to come 
when the question of national organization was going to be discussed, 
or the time was going to be ripe for it. I decided that I w^ould start 
this organization and attem])t to bring into the x\merican Nationalist 
Confederation as many organizations as I could to see what the ob- 
jections would be, to see what the answers of these fellows would be 
as to why they didn't want to come in, or as to why they wouldn't 



3522 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

join, because of certain reasons, certain definite reasons, or, "I don't 
like this fellow" or "I don't like his policy." 

So that, when the time was ripe for a real national or2:anization, 
and we had a conference and some of the delegates wonld say, "We 
are going; to do so and so, and this is the policy we will follow to get 
the organization started," I would be able to tell them that a certain 
thing wouldn't work because I had already found out it wouldn't. 

The Chairman. Did you get a lot of these organizations interested 
in it ? 

Mr. Deathfrage. Not very many, they all had their own plans of 
this, that, and the other. 

The Chairman. How many of them were interested in it, was Mr.- 
Pelley's outfit interested? 

Mr. Deatherage. No. 

The Chairman. Was George Christians'? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; I wouldn't have anything to do with 
Christians. 

The Chairman. '^V^lo all were? 

Mr. Deatherage. The interest never got to the point where we- 
actually brought them in as an official liaison. 

The Chairman. How many of them did actually come in? 

Mr. Deatherage. There wasn't any of them came in officially. 

Tlie Chairman. How many of them did you establish that liaison' 
between ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I imagine 35 or 40. 

The Chairman. Organizations? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

The Chairman. You worked together? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

INIr. Whitley. In other words, you were "jumping the gun" on this 
confederation idea? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. You anticipated that sooner or later all of these 
various groups would join together in a federation, a Nation-wide 
organization? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. So you set up the American Nationalist Confereda- 
tion to start getting thees groups in? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is rignt. 

Mr. Whitley. Before someone else did that? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Is this the organization that you were trying to set 
up in your negotiations with General Moseley? Did you anticipate 
that he would take over the leadership of this organization? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; that never entered my mind. In fact, I 
advised General Moseley not to join any organization, head up any 
existing organization, or have anything to do with it. 

Mr. WiHTLr.Y, In other words, you realized from your experience 
with your own confederation, or your own federation plan, that the 
bestt hing for him to do was to start a new organization, a new move 
for a federation, which he was to head? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right ; go on his own. 

The Chairman. But there were 35 or 40 organizations that were 
indirectly affiliated with the American Nationalist Confederation? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3523 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

The Chairman. Coiikl you tell us who those organizations were? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, there was the Militant Christian Patriots 
in Los Angeles, and the American Women Against Communism, and 
Pelley was more or less sympathetic, but there was no direct affilia- 
tion. 

The Chairman. But you corresponded and exchanged informa- 
tion ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

The Chairman. And sort of worked in sympathy? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

The Chairman. Give us the next one. What about the bund ; did 
the bund know about this ? 

Mr. Deatherage. They knew about it, but I never made any 
attempt 

The Chairman (interposing). Did you correspond with them re- 
garding it ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did they exchange correspondence or information 
with you ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; the bund has always taken a very peculiar 
attitude with me. 

The Chairman. Why? 

Mr. Deatherage. They seem to have the attitude that I didn't want 
to work with anybody. 

The Chairman. Then the bund wasn't in it? 

Mr. Deatherage. No. 

The Chairman. Give us some more in that same category. 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, there was Winrod in Kansas. 

The Chairman. You corresponded with him? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

The Chairman. And he knew about this movement? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

The Chairman. And there was that sympathetic feeling there? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. Well, it was hard to say how far their 
sympathy went. Of course, they had always worked with me because 
they believed in my integrity. 

The Chairman. Who else besides Winrod? 

Mr. Deatherage. I would have to get the list, but I can get it for 
you and put it in the record. 

The Chairman. You will give us the list of the 35 or 40? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir ; I will put it in the record. 

Mr. Voorhis. Was a man named Martin Luther Thomas connected 
with the Militant Christian Patriots? 

Mr, Deatherage. No; I don't think he ever had anything to do 
with the Militant Christian Patriots, except that they used to attend 
these meetings, and I imagine they must have helped him or were 
sympathetic or something of the sort, but there is no official connec- 
tion to my knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. I have a list here I am going to read of various 
individuals and organizations and get you to state, as I read them, 
whether you were in contact with them in connection with this 
American Nationalist Confederation ? 



3524 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Deatherage. It is going to be difficult for me to be accurate 
in this, because I sent out a general letter, and it is awfully difficult. 

Mr. Whitley. Some of them you will be sure of, and if there is 
any doubt you can qualify your answer. 

Father Coughlin? 

Mr. Deatherage. No. 

Mr. Whitley. George W. Christians? You have already stated 
you didn't contact him. 

Mr. Deatherage. I am not certain; I think I might have, but I 
don't know. 

]\h'. Whitley. Gerald Winrod. You stated you had contacted him. 

William Dudley Pelley — you stated you had been in contact with 
him. 

Charles B. Hudson, of the organization America in Danger? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Major Pease of the White Front? 

Mr. Deatherage. No. 

Mr. Whitley. James True? 

]\Ir. Deatherage, Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. F. W. Clark, of the National Liberty Party? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The Nationalist Press Association? 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; I would say no. 

Mr. Whitley. General Moseley? 

Mr. Deatherage. He had nothing to do with it, that was before 
he ever retired. 

Mr. AViiitley. E. N. Sanctuary? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Robert E. Edmondson? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The German-American National Alliance? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't know them. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you had any contact at all with that organiza- 
tion ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Not to my personal knowledge. If I have, it 
has been under some other name or the name of an individual. 

Mr. Whitley. The orjxanization known as the American-Raniier — 
did you have contact with them? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr., Whitley. Martin Luther Thomas — I believe Congressman 
Voorhis asked you about that ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Put a question mark after that, I don't know. 

IVIr. Whitley. The American Guard? 

]Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Hal Walton, of the Committee of Witnesses? 

Mr. Deatherage. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Henry Allen? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

]\Tr. Whitley. Stuart (X) ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No. 

Mr. Whitley. The Constitutional Crusaders of America? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, 

Mr, Whitley. Anna Bogenholm Sloane? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3525 

Mr. Deatherage. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Mrs. Jewett, of California? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. ^Y[vdt is her group or organization ? 

Mr. Deatherage. She hasn't any group or organization of her own. 
She works with the Militant Christian Patriots. 

Ms*. Whitley. Have you ever sought any financing through her, 
sought to secure any financing through her? 

Mr. Deatherage. You mean by asking her for money? 

Mv. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir; I never asked her for a dime in my life. 

Mv. Whitley. Is she on your mailing list ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, we had a falling out. She thinks that I 
am a bad boy. 

Mr. AYhitley. She is associated with or has contacts with a number 
of these organizations to your knowledge? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Has she had any contact with General Moseley ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. He has been in touch with her? 

Mr. Deathei^vge. She has been in touch with him. 

Mr. Whitley. Regarding this organization that you were discus- 
sing with him? 

INIr. Deatherage. Yes; she tried to run me out. 

M^'. Whitley. Donald Shea, of the National Gentile League? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; I think so. 

Mr. Whitley. Mrs. Fry, of the Christian Free Press ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

INIr. Whitley. She was one of the group you contacted concerning 
this federation? 

Mr. Deatherage. Oh yes. 

The Chairman. Now, while there wasn't any definite affiliation, 
there was this exchange of letters between you and working together 
to some extent? 

Mv. Deatherage. Yes; not 100 percent, that is, we didn't agree on 
everybody's policy. 

The Chairman. And you sent them your literature under the 
American Nationalist Confederation and wrote them under that 
letterhead ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mv. Whitley. Mr. Deatherage, what was the official emblem that 
you selected for the American Nationalist Confederation? 

Mr. Deatherage. The swastika. 

Mr. Whitley. That was the emblem of the organization? 

Mv. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That is on your letterhead? 

The Witness. No; I don't believe it is on the letterhead, it never 
was on the letterhead. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you identify this as your letterhead? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; that isn't a letterhead, that is the first sheet 
from the bulletin we used to put out. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have it on your literature, tlien, if not on 
your letterheads ? 



3526 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; it was on tlie literature, but never on the 
letterheads. 

Mr. Whitley. You state here in this bulletin, the mimeographed 
sheet which you put out under date of April 23, 1938 : 

Editorial. The meaning of the emblem, the swastika. This issue carries at 
the masthead our newly selected emblem, the swastika. 

Why did you select that particular emblem for this federation that 
you were trying- to organize or set up, Mr. Deatherage ? 

Mr. Deatherage. It was done deliberately to direct at me all of 
the venom and abuse which I felt might be directed at me, with the 
idea that these fellows, as they always do, overdo themselves, if you 
give them enough rope; in order to identify my enemies, if I could put 
something out that could be shot at, that was the thing, and that was 
the reason it was done. 

Mr. Whitley. On page 2 of this bulletin, which you just identified, 
you state as follows : 

Fascism is defined as a patriotic revolt (such as of the White Russians) against 
Jewocrac.v (alias democrac.v) and a return of statesmanship. Fascist (or patri- 
otic) rule insists upon the dut.v of cooperation. 

Do you give that definition in conjunction with your emblem — this 
definition of fascism wdiicli you give in this bulletin which you sent 
out ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't quite understand that question. 

Mr. WnrrLEY. You define, undertake to define, fascism for the in- 
dividuals or organizations to whom you sent this mimeographed 
bulletin. Do you submit that definition in conjunction with the 
emblem, the swastika? 

Mr. Deatherage. As I romeniber it, I took th? defir.ition out of the 
dictionary ; that is what I used. 

Mr. Whitley. On page 3 of that same bulletin you have a sub- 
lieading captioned "Platform of the American Nationalist Confedera- 
tion — a Fascist party." 

Do you have any further explanation of that to make? 

Mr. Deatherage. iVbout using the word "Fascist"? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Deatherage. Sure ; it was done for the same purpose. In other 
words, here was the idea : This American Nationalist Confederation 
business was all set up for a purpose, and the purpose was to see who 
we could get together, on what basis we could get together, and I 
made up a j^latform into which I put all of the possible things that 
might come up. Some of them were, to my point of view, very radical ; 
but, on the other hand, I knew they would be issues which would be 
taken up eventually. Then I w^as going to have our own organiza- 
tions, on our own side of the fence, come back and say, "I am not 
going to agree with No. 15," and I would have a certain amount of 
them, a preponderance of opinion that wouldn't agree with them, and 
I would cross that item out, and by that I hoped to get a cross section 
of feeling. 

Mr. Whitley. On page 3 of that same bulletin, ]Mr. Deatherage, you 
state as follows : 

International bankers, of whom the Jews are iu a majority. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3527 

You make that reference and then you state : 

The party therefore definitely pledges itself to immediate and drastic economy 
reforms through the advocation of : 

(c) The confiscation of the illegal hoardings of the international bankers for 
the payment of the national debt. 

That was a part of the program which you were advocating for the 
federation ? 

Mr. Deatherage. It wasn't the phitform I was advocating; it was a 
j)hitform I put out to be shot at. 

Mr. Whitley. It was the phatform, at least, which you outlined in 
here which you sent out, I believe you stated, to test the temper or 
the attitude of the people to whom it was sent? 

INIr. Deatherage. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. You say that that doesn't in any way indicate that 
jou are in sympathy with fascism or that you advocate such a sys- 
tem of government? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; I put it out just for that purpose. 

Mr. Whitley. But you think that that could be easily misinter- 
preted, that is, an interpretation other than your explanation, could 
te put on that type of material? 

Mr. Deatherage. I imagine you could, but you want to under- 
stand there was never more than 500 of those things w^ent out any 
time, it wasn't a case of flooding the country with propaganda of 
that nature, they went to certain leaders. 

Mr. Whitley. Of course, you have named a great many of the 
organizations ; do you recall how many copies of this were circulated ? 

Mr. Deatherage. C-ertainly not more than 500 at any time in an 
issue, in a particular issue. 

The Chairman. That was the time you were printing your own 
material ? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. But since then the market has been so flooded 
with material that it is cheaper for you to get it from others than to 
try to print it yourself? 

Mr. Deatherage. I don't bother with it. 

The Chairman. You can get all you want for nothing? 

Mr. Deatherage. Not for nothing. 

The Chairman. You can get it on a mass-production basis cheaper 
than it costs you to print it? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; I can get a bundle of mass-production ma- 
terial at a very reasonable price. So can anybody else who wants to 
put the money up. 

The Chairman. And how much of this stuff that you can get cheap 
comes from the United States and how^ much of it comes from 
abroad ; do you know ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I w^ould say that 99 percent of it is from the 
United States. 

The Chairman. You don't know whether that originated from 
abroad, though, do you? 

Mr. Deatherage. I am fairly certain in my own opinion that none 
of it did. 

The Chairinean. Well, a great deal of the material in it came out 
of these international agencies in Germany and in Italy? 

94931— 39— vol. 5 23 



3528 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, we will have to leave Italy out of it be- 
cause they are only startino- this organization, but say the World 
Service bulletins that come out. there would be factual information 
such as in the case I mentioned yesterday of Mr. Toller. It would 
give his record. Well, if somebody wanted to quote Mr. Toller's 
record, they would take it from there. 

The Chairman. Take it from this material coming from abroad? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; and add what they knew from the United 
States, knew of this man. 

The Chairman. How do you contact these agencies in Berlin and 
Italy, do they write you first, do they have your mailing list and 
write you? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; I wrote and requested that they send me 
copies of the information which was available. 

The Chairman. You wrote direct? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

The Chairman. Do you know of any instances in which they sent 
it without having an.y letter from the person asking? 

Mr. Deaterage. Well, I have heard claim made, I don't know 
whether they have or not. I would assume they probably have. 

The Chairman. They have a very efficient service there, ready to 
accommodate anyone in the United States with material? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; I would say that they do. 

The Chairman. And when you get the material, as you prepare 
your publication, such part of the material as you might want to use, 
you can use? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right, if I were publishing myself. 

The Chairman. In other words, these agents abroad serve more as 
international bureaus to furnish information for the different or- 
ganizations in the United States? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; just like the League of Nations in Geneva. 

The Chairman. It doesn't cost you anything to get those, does it? 

Mr. Deatherage. From Germany, you mean? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Deatherage. They will send you one or two pieces of litera- 
ture that you inquire about. I have never imported anything in any 
quantity. 

The Chairman. When you inquired you didn't have to pay for it, 
did you? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, yes ; we have in some cases. 

The Chairman. Some cases you didn't pay for it? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

The Chairman. Did they pay the postage in those cases that you 
didn't pay, or did you have to pay the postage? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, I sent them funds for certain special pieces 
of literature, and the profits on that I suppose paid for the postage 
on the stuff they sent free, but I don't know that. 

The Chairman. Have they communicated with you frequently since 
then? Do they write you at stated intervals and tell you they have 
certain material ready for distribution? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; they haven't done that. My contact with 
World Service has mostly been personal, through this fellow wdio re- 
cently died, Johannes Klapproth, who was one of my men over here. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3529 

Tlie Chairman. He handled that end of it for 3'0ii? 
Mr. Deatiierage. Yes, 

Tlie Chairman. Did he get many letters from this World Service? 
Mr. Deathirage. He? 
The Chairman. Yes. 

Ml'. Deatherage. I have no knoAvledge of that. 
The Chairman. How many communications have yon had from 
him ; do tliey write yon at any stated interval ; since he died have they 
written you ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I have only had one letter of notification of his 
death, and the name of the fellow who took his place, and a few gen- 
eralities. 

The Chairman, They told you the name of the man in the United 
States who had taken his place? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; the man is not in the United States; they 
told me the name of the man in charge of the American section in 
Germany who had taken his place. 

The Chairman. He is now in Germany, and they notified you of 
his name so you could contact this man when you wanted to? 
Mv. Deatherage. Evidently. 
The Chairman. Have you contacted that man? 
Mr. Deatherage. I wrote him the other day and sent my regi*ets 
about thet death of my friend and said I hopecl that they would take 
steps to take care of his family, because I know he was in distress and 
had a wife and two children. 

The Chairman. That is, you wrote the man whose name was sent 
to you and you said you hoped that they would take care of the family 
of Mr. Klapproth because he had been very faithful, and so on, and 
so forth ? 

Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 

The Chairman. Who else is in charge — did you get the names of 
anyone else in charge of the American section ? 
Mr. Deatherage. No ; and I don't know anybody else. 
The Chairman. During the time that you had this contact, were 
you ever referred to the German Embassy here? 
Mr. Deatherage. No. 

The Chairman. Did you ever have any contact with the German 
Embassy or any member of it ? 
Mr. Deatherage. I went twice. 
The Chairman. To the German Embassy? 
Mr. Deatherage. Yes. 

The Chairman. Who told you to go to the German Embassy? 
Mr. Deatherage. Nobody; I went myself. 
The Chairman. Who did you see? 

Mr. Deatherage. At San Francisco, last year, I went to get cer- 
tain information, and I saw Baron von Killinger, the consul, and 
I talked to him about 15 minutes. 

The Chairman. What information did you want from him? 
jNIr. DEATHERA(iE. I Wanted to ask li:m about this chap Toller; 
I wanted his background, and so forth. 

The Chairman. Did you discuss anything else? 

INIr. Deatherage. Not to my knowledge. 

The Chairman, Did he treat you very friendly? 



3530 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Deatherage. Oh, yes. 

The Chairman. Did he compliment you on your activities or 
interest ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No, sir. 
The Chairman. He didn't do that? 

Mr. Deatherage. No; the fact of the matter is that Mr. von Kill- 
inger was very explicit that if there is any movement in this country 
it would have to be an American movement. 

The Chairman. Did he tell you that ? What led him up to telling 
you that if there was any movement in the United States it would 
have to be purely an American movement ? 
Mr. Deatherage. Because I identified myself. 

The Chairman. Why would he, out of a clear sky, tell you that? 
You must have asked him if he was interested in some American 
movement, didn't you ? 

Mr. Deatherage. I can't recall what the conversation was. 
The Chairman. You recall that he was very explicit in his state- 
ment to you that if there was any movement in the United States 
it would have to be an American movement? 

Mr. Deatherage. Yes; that thing stuck in my mind. 
The Chairman. But you don't recall what led up to that state- 
ment, do you ? 

Mr. Deatherage. No ; frankly, I don't. 

The Chairman. But there must have been some discussion about 
the American movement? 

Mr. Deatherage. Well, there probably was, but I don't recall it. 
The Chairman. But you didn't go to him for the purpose of 
o-etting his aid for your movement, you know that you didn't do that? 
Mr. Deatherage. I know that positively. 

The Chairman. And when was the next time you contacted the 
German Embassy? 

Mr. Deatherage. Let me see. It was about 3 months ago here 
in Washington. I went in cold to see Mr. von Gienow, the director 
of public relations here in the German Embassy, and I wanted some 
information. 

The Chairman. What information did you want from him? 
Mr. Deatherage. I wanted to ask Baron von Gienow, whom I had 
heard was one of the first members of Hitler's Party, how and when 
they really got any financing in order to start their movement. 

The Chairman. You wanted to find out what their experience had 
been in Germany? 

T^Ir. Deatherage. That is right, I wanted to find out for my own 
personal benefit when I could expect the reaction to give us some 
help in this country. 

The Chairman. Well, in other words you had been having a pretty 
hard time getting money, and you wanted to find out how they did 
the trick over in Germany? 
Mr. Deatherage. Sure. 

The Chatrj^ian. And about what time you could expect the returns 
to begin coming in on this side? 
Mr. Deatherage. That is right. 
The Chairman. What did he tell you? 

Mr. Deather