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I
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN
PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE
UNITED STATES
HEARINGS
BEFORE A
SPECIAL
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
ON
H. Res. 282
TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND OBJECTS
OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED
STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF
SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA THAT IS INSTI-
GATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN
AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE FORM OF GOVERN-
MENT AS GUARANTEED BY OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL
OTHER QUESTIONS IN RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID
CONGRESS IN ANY NECESSARY REMEDIAL
LEGISLATION
VOLUME 6
AUGUST 16, 17, 18, 21, 22, 23, 24, 28, AND 29, 1939
AT WASHINGTON, D. C.
Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1939
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN
PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE
UNITED STATES
HEARINGS
BEFORE A
SPECIAL
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
ON
H. Res. 282
TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND OBJECTS
OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED
STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF
SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA THAT IS INSTI-
GATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN
AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE FORM OF GOVERN-
MENT AS GUARANTEED BY OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL
OTHER QUESTIONS IN RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID
CONGRESS IN ANY NECESSARY REMEDIAL
LEGISLATION
VOLUME 6
AUGUST 16, 17, 18, 21, 22, 23, 24, 28, AND 29, 1939
AT WASHINGTON, D. C.
Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities
.
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
94931 • WASHINGTON : 1939
SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES,
WASHINGTON, D. C.
MARTIN DIES, Texas, Chairman
JOHN J. DEMPSEY, New Mexico NOAH M. MASON, Illinois
JOE STAENES, Alabama J. PARNELL THOMAS, New Jersej
JERRY VOORHIS, California
Robert E. Stkipling, Secretary
Rhea Whitley, Counsel
II
Charged to credit sect
with Stipt. of Documents
• o I i •■ ; . . ■ . ♦ • • •
-
•- • -»■
CONTENTS
Page
Allen, Henry D 3972, 4003, 4086, 4124
Barker, Robert 4182, 4239
Gardner, Fraser 4045,4075,5463
Kuhn, Fritz, German- American Bund 3705
Metcalfe, John C 3942
Sherman, Dr. John Harvey, University of Tampa 3961
Smith, Telma L., official reporter to committees, House of Representa-
tives 4079
Sullivan, George E., attorney at law, Washington. D. C 4073
Vooros, Helen 3891, 3946
in
i;
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 16, 1939
House of Representatives.
Special Committee to Investigate Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. 0.
The committee met at 10 a. m. in the caucus room. House Office
Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman), presiding.
(Present: Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to committee.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
All members of the committee were notified of the hearing this
morning. The committee, in executive session, has adopted two res-
olutions: One, that in accordance with the resolution of Congress
creating this committee, the chairman be authorized to appoint sub-
committees for the purpose of holding hearings and receiving testi-
mony or evidence whenever he deems it advisable or necessary.
The other resolution is that all hearings of the committee, or any
subcommittee appointed by the chairman, be public, and that in the
event the chairman of the committee or of any subcommittee deems it
advisable to receive any testimony or evidence in executive session,
he shall first obtain the consent of the majority of the committee or
subcommittee, as the case may be.
The first witness this morning will be Mr. Fritz Kuhn.
(Mr. Fritz Kuhn took the witness chair.)
The Chairman. The committee requests absolute order and quiet
so that we may hear the witnesses. The committee wants to be abso-
lutely fair to ever}' witness who appears before it. At the same
time, the committee expects the witnesses to be responsive in their
answers to any questions that are propounded and not to volunteer
statements. Where an explanation is in order, a witness will be
accorded the opportunity to make a pertinent explanation of any
testimony, but witnesses will not be permitted to volunteer state-
ments or to assume a belligerent attitude.
All that this committee is interested in is to obtain the facts and the
truth with respect to all subversive activities in the United States.
Every witness who appears before this commitee is under oath and
will be held accountable for any testimony that is nor accurate.
The witness will be sworn.
TESTIMONY OF FRITZ KUHN
(The witness was duly sworn.)
The Chairman. Mr. Whitley, counsel to the committee, will con-
duct the examination.
3705
3706 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. What is your full name?
Mr. Kuhx. Fritz Julius Kuhn.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever gone under or been known by any
other name?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. What is your present address, Mr. Kuhn?
Mr. Kuhn. My present address is 178 East Eighty-fifth Street,
New York City.
Mr. Whitley. Where were you born?
Mr. Kuhx. In Munich. Germany.
Mr. Whitley. When were you born?
Mr. Kuhx. May 15, 1896. * .
Mr. Whitley. 1896, did you sav?
Mr. Kuhx. In '96.
Mr. Whitley. Where were you educated?
Mr. Kuhx. In Munich, Germany.
Mr. Whitley. What is the extent of your education?
Mr. Kuhx. Public school, high school, and university.
Mr. Whitley. Were you in the World War?
Mr. Kuhx. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. For what period?
Mr. Kuhx. Four and a half years.
Mr. Whitley. What branch of the service?
Mr. Kuhx. Infantry, machine gun.
Mr. Whitley. What was your rank?
Mr. Kuhx. Bv the beginning of the war or bv the finish of the
war ?
Mr. Whitley. At the finish of the war.
Mr. Kuhx. Lieutenant.
Mr. Whitley. Are you married or single?
Mr. Kuhx. Married.
Mr. Whitley. Have you any children?
Mr. Kuhn. Two.
Mr. Whitley. Do you have any relatives that occupy official po-
sitions in the Nazi government?
Mr. Kuhn. I have a brother, a supreme judge.
Mr. Whitley. You have a brother who is a supreme court judge?
Mr. Kuhn. A supreme judge.
Mr. Whitley. Where is he located?
Mr. Kuhx. In Berlin.
Mr. Whitley. Do you have any other relatives in Germany who
hold any official positions?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever been arrested or had any charges
brought against you in Germany?
Mr. Kuhx. No.
Mr. Whitley. Of any kii
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Have yon ever been arrested in the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. On what occasion, and for what?
Mr. Kuhn. Different occasions. The charge against me was drunk-
enness and profanity, and grand larceny.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3707
Mr. Whitley. And what \
Mr. Kuhn. Ami grand larceny.
Mr. Whitley. When and where were those charges brought, Mr.
Kuhn \
Mr. Kuhn. The first charges were brought in New York City; I do
not recall the exact date — oh, yes. 25th of May 1939.
Mr. Whitley. When were the other charges brought?
Mr. Kuhn. Some time in July, in Massachusetts.
Mr. Whitley. Who was with you at the time you were arrested in
Massachusetts, Mr. Kuhn?
Mr. Kuhn. With me were three of my officers.
Mr. Whitley. Three of your officers \
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Will you name them, please?
Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Kunze and Mr. James Wheeler Hill.
Mr. Whitley. And who was the third ?
Mr. Kuhn. Gustav Elmer.
Mr. Whitley. Was there not another party there? Was not this
Russian count with you at the time?
Mr. Kuhn. No; he was not along with us.
Mr. Whitley. He was not with you ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Is he connected with you in any way?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; he is not connected in any way.
Mr. Whitley. He is a friend of yours, though '.
Mr. Kuhn. An acquaintance, not a friend.
Mr. Whitley. He is an acquaintance?
Mr. Kuhn. An acquaintance.
Mr. Whitley. Of long standing?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no; it might be about the first time I met him —
about 6 or 7 months ago.
Mr. Whitley. He is connected with a White Russian organiza-
tion, is he not, a Fascist group?
Mr. Kuhn. No; he is not a Fascist group. He is a revolutionary
group which tries to overthrow the government in Russia. That is
his whole purpose. He does not do any political activity in the
United States at all.
Mr. Whitley. He appeared with you at the time of the hearing up
there, did he not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. I was his guest, his week-end guest.
Mr. Whitley. What is the name of your brother who is on the
supreme court in Germany. Mr. Kuhn?
Mr. Kuhn. Kuhn.
Mr. Whitley. I mean his first name.
Mr. Kuhn. Max.
Mr. Whitley. Max \
Mr. Kuhn. Max; Dr. Max Kuhn.
Mr. Whitley. Did you give the name of the Russian count who
was with you?
Mr. Kuhn. It was not a Russian count with me.
Mr. Whitley. Well, the Russian.
Mr. Kuhn. Well. I do not know his name ; it is something — San-
etskoff, whatever the name is. one of his fellows was along with us.
3708 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. You do not know the name of the man with whom
you were arrested in Massachusetts?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not know his name.
Mr. Whitley. Were you visiting him up there? Did you go up
there to see him?
Mr. Kuhn. We had a meeting in New Britain and I had a stand-
ing invitation from him for quite a while. After we left New
Britain we decided to pay him a visit. It was unexpected.
Air. Whitley. But you were his guest.
Mr. Kuhn. We dropped in on him. After we dropped in on him
he invited us to stay.
Mr. Whitley. But you do not know his name?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, jVlr. Vonsiatsky; but you asked me the fellow
who was with us on that evening, which was on the party. We
left his house about 12 o'clock at night.
Mr. Whitley. He was not with you at the time you were arrested ?
Mr. Kuhn. He was not along at all. He did not leave the house.
The other fellow's name I do not recall.
Mr. Whitley. When did vou leave your native country, Mr.
Kuhn?
Mr. Kuhn. 1923.
Mr. Whitley. Where did vou go then?
Mr. Kuhn. Mexico.
Mr. Whitley. When did vou enter the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. 1927 ; I think the 18th or 19th of May 1927.
Mr. Whitley. Was that '27 or '28?
Mr. Kuhn. I think it is '27, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Whitley. Where did you enter the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. Laredo, Tex.
Mr. Whitley. Where have you lived, in what places, since your
entry into the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Whitley. Is that the only place you have lived since you
came to the United States in 1927?
Mr. Kuhn. I came directly to Detroit and stayed in Detroit until
October 1936, and then I came to New York.
Mr. Whitley. What occupations have you followed since enter-
ing the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. I am a chemical engineer.
Mr. Whitley. You are what?
Mr. Kuhn. I am a chemical engineer.
Mr. Whitley. Yon have followed that occupation?
Mr. Kuhn. All the time.
Mr. Whitley. Where have you followed that occupation?
Mr. Kuhn. First, in the Henry Ford Hospital.
Mr. Whitley. The Henry Ford Hospital I
Mr. Kuhn. And then in the Henry Ford Motor Co.
Mr. Whitley. How long did you work with the Ford Co. as a
chemical engineer?
Mr. Kuhn. About 8 years.
Mr. Whitley. Eight years?
Mr. Kuhn. I was employed in Ford about 8 years.
Mr. Whitley. Are vou a citizen of the United States?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3709
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. When and where were you naturalized?
Mr. Kuhn. In the district court in Detroit, December 3, 1933.
Mr. Whitley. 1934, was it not?
Mr. Kuhn. Four — three or four, T aui not sure.
Mr. Whitley. You are not sure. What is your present occupation,
Mr. Kuhn?
Mr. Kuhn. I am president of the German-American Bund; presi-
dent of the German-American Business League, and president of the
A. V. Publishing Corporation, and president of the A. V. Develop-
ment Corporation.
Mr. Whitney. What does "A. V." mean?
Mr. Juhn. That means Amerikadeutscher Volksbund; the first
capital letters of these two words.
Mr. Whitney. How long have you occupied those positions?
Mr. Kuhn. Since January 1, 1936.
Mr. Whitley. January 1, 1936 (
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Whitley. What is your present salary?
Mr. Kuhn. My present salarv is $300.
Mr. Whitley. $300 a month?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Is that paid by the organizations?
Mr. Kuhn. By the different organizations.
Mr. Whitley. Do you have any other source of income?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Where do you maintain your bank accounts?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not have a bank account.
Mr. Whitley. You do not have a personal bank account.
When Avas your organization, the German-American Bund, with
its subsidiary or allied groups, first founded or organized, Mr. Kuhn?
Mr. Kuhn. In March 1936, in Buffalo, at a national convention.
Mr. Whitley. Were there any organizations that preceded the
German- American Bund ?
Mr. Kuhn. Friends of New Germany.
Mr. Whitley. How long had that organization been in existence?
Mr. Kuhn. To the best of my knowledge since May 1933; I am
not quite sure of the date.
Mr. Whitley. And the German- American Bund was just the suc-
cessor to the Friends of New Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. No. The friends of New Germany was dissolved and
a new organization was formed and created, absolutely new, because
in the German-American Bund there are only American citizens that
can be members.
Mr. Whitley. At the time it was first formed, that was not true,
was it?
Mr. Kuhn. That was true.
Mr. Whitley. It was true?
Mr. Kuhn. It was true, absolutely, to the best of my knowledge;
the order was out, and absolutely strict.
Mr. Whitley. What organization preceded the Friends of New
Germany ?
Mr. Kuhn. Well. I can only say that from what I heard about it.
I do not know himself.
3710 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Was it an organization known as the Teutonia
Society ?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. Do yon know when that was founded ?
Mr. Kuhn. To the best of my knowledge, around 1927. I think.
Mr. Whitley. In 1927?
Mr. Ktjhn. I think so.
Mr. Whitley. I think the records show 1924 ; but I am not sure,
either.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, it might be.
Mr. Whitley. In any event, there was a series of organiza-
tions
Mr. Kuhn. In 1927 I heard the first time about it in Chicago.
Mr. Whitley. Where was the new organization, the present organ-
ization, the German- American Bund, founded?
Mr. Kuhn. In Buffalo.
Mr. Whitley. At a convention ?
Mr. Kuhn. At a convention.
Mr. Whitley. And at that time you were elected the president ; is
that vour title ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Of the organization. And you have held that posi-
tion ever since ?
Mr. Kuhn. Since then.
Mr. Whitley. Were there any particular groups of indi-
viduals
Mr. Kuhn. Any particular what?
Mr. Whitley. Any particular group that founded the German-
American Bund? Who was the moving spirit? Who called the
convention ?
Mr. Kuhn. I called the convention.
Mr. Whitley. You called the convention?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, it was you who took the lead in
organizing the convention which established the German-American
Bund?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. In the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Were you ever a member of the preceding organ-
ization, the Friends of New Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I was.
Mr. Whitley. During what period, Mr. Kuhn ?
Mr. Kuhn. I became a member in 1934, I think.
Mr. Whitley. 1934?
Mr. Kuhn. 1934.
Mr. Whitley. Did you occupy any official position with that
organization \
Mr. Ktjhn. Well, in the later part; yes.
Mr. Whitley. What was that position?
Mr. Kuhn. Local unit leader of Detroit.
Mr. Whitley. Local unit leader for the Friends of New Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. For the Friends of New Germany.
Mr. Whitley. In Detroit?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 37H
Mr. KriiN. Yes. .
Mr. Whitley. Were you active in that position, in the attairs ot
that group?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; of course. .
Mr. Whitley. Who were the first officers of the newly organized
German-American Bund?
Mr. Kuhn. You mean what officers
Mr. Whitley. In addition to yourself.
Mr. Kuhn. National headquarters officer- '.
Mr. Whitley. National headquarters officers.
Mr. Kuhn. There was Mr. Froboese; George is his first name.
Mr. Whitley. What was his position ?
Mr. Kuhn. He was district leader of the middle west.
Mr. Whitley. Who were the other officers of the organization?
Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Herman Schwinn.
Mr. Whitley. And what is his position \
Mr. Kuhn. District leader of the West.
Mr. Whitley. Of the far west division.
Mr. Kuhn. West division.
Mr. Whitley. Where were his headquarters '.
Mr. Kuhn. Los Angeles.
Mr. Whitley. And where were Mr. Froboese's headquarters?
Mr. Kuhn. Chicago.
Mr. Whitley. Who were the other officers, national headquarters
officers ?
Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Rudolph Markmann.
Mr. Whitley. What was his position ?
Mr. Kuhn. District leader of the East.
Mr. Whitley. Where were his headquarters?
Mr. Kuhn. New York.
Mr. Whitley. Who were the other national officer:- \
Mr. Kuhn. In the beginning I did not have any but a secretary.
There was Mr. Firschkorn.
Mr. Whitley. He was the national secretary '.
Mr. Kuhn. National secretary, for the time being: yes.
Mr. Whitley. At the time of the organization, those were the
only national officers?
Mr. Kuhn. The only national officers we had at that time.
Mr. Whitley. AYho are the present officers of the German-
American Bund, Mr. Kuhn?
Mr. Kuhn. The same: Mr. Froboese, Mr. Schwinn, Mr. Mark-
mann, Mr. Kunze.
Mr. Whitley. What is his first name ?
Mr. Kuhn. Wilhelm.
Mr. Whitley. What is his position ?
Mr. Kuhn. He is director of relations: public enlightenment.
Mr. Whitley. That is for the national organization?
Mr. Kuhn. National organization.
Mr. Whitley. With headquarters in New York \
The Chairman. Did the witness say he was the head of the de-
partment of propaganda and enlightenment?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes : it is the same.
Mr. Whitley. Who were the other- '.
3712 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kdhn. Mr. Elmer, director of the organization, and Mr.
James Wheeler Hill.
Mr. Whitley. What is his position ?
Mr. Kuhn. National secretary.
Mr. Whitley. Are those the only present officers?
Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Luedtke, business manager.
Mr. Whitley. He is the business manager?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Any other officers at the present time?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Are those all salaried positions I
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. They are not ?
Mr. Kuhn. One died: the national treasurer. He has not been
replaced yet.
Mr. Whitley. That was the national treasurer?
Mr. Kuhn. The national treasurer ; he just died recently. There
are only two salaried men outside of me.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn. were you active in the National Socialist
Party before you left Germany in 1923 ?
Mr. Kuhn." No.
Mr. Whitley. You were not active ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. You were not connected with it in any way?
Mr. Kuhx. No; I was not connected in any way.
Mr. Whitley. I was under the impression at the time of my
previous interview with you that you advised me that you Avere
active ?
Mr. Kuhn. No: I was not a member, and I was not active; not
in the National Socialist Party.
Mr. Whitley. Were you ever a member of that party?
Mr. Kuhx. No; I was not a member of that party.
Mr. Whitley. With what party or group were you affiliated?
Mr. Kuhn. I was a member of the Reserve Officers' Corps.
Mr. Whitley. Of what \
Mr. Kuhn. The Reserve officers.
Mr. Whitley. The Reserve officers ?
Mr. Kuhn. And I was a member of the so-called Steel Helmets,
at that time, which is a veterans' legion outfit in Germany.
Mr. Whitley. You did not have any definite political affiliations?
Mr. Kuhn. Political relations; no. I fight the Communists there.
I was in that revolution in Munich, active, of course, with officers
of my old regiment. But I was not a member of the party, the
National Socialist Party.
Mr. Whitley. Did you take part or participate in the so-called
beer-hall putsch?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I cannot.
Mr. Whitley. In 1923?-
Mr. Kuhn. No: because the record will show that I left Germany
long before that.
Mr. Whitley. That was in 1923, was it not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. I left in May 1923, and that happened on the
9th of November 1923.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3713
Mr Whitley. Does the German-American Bund have a board of
directors or an executive committee?
Mr. Kuhn. No; just the officers. We have a national conven-
tion.
Mr. Whitley. How often is that held?
Mr. Kuhn. It has to be held once a year, and all the local units —
so many members have a vote for a delegate, and the delegate is
sent to the national convention. The national conventions have to
be held once a year, and it is up to me to say when it is.
Mr. Whitley. As the president of the bund you have practically
unlimited power and authority in directing its affairs?
Mi". Kuhn. Yes. I am only responsible to the national convention.
The national convention gives me the power of attorney.
Mr. Whitley. To act as you see fit?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Will 3rou describe or explain for the record, Mr.
Kuhn. the purposes and objectives of your organization?
Mr. Kuhn. We have the purposes and aims printed. I can put
that in evidence, if you want.
Mr. Whitley. Do you have a copy of those with you '.
Mr. Kuhn. I have the constitution here, and I have the purposes
and aims here.
Mr. Whitley. Are they very long?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, it takes quite awhile before you read them.
Mr. Whitley. Shall we have those read?
Mr. Mason. I suggest that we put them in the record.
Mr. Whitley. You may put them in the record.
(The documents referred to are as follows:)
Constitution of the German American Bund — Amerikadeutscher
Volksbund — New York, 3937
preamble
We associate ourselves together to unite all honorable, seriously minded,
courageous and unselfish men and women of the Germanic race, loyal and
prospective citizens of the United States, proud of their German blood, and
treasuring German traditions, language, and ideals of national and individual
liberty, justice, truth, duty, and absolute honesty, into one great, free, proud,
and respect-commanding German-American Bund for the mutual benefit of
the United States of America and Germany.
Article I
NAME
The name of this organization shall be the German-American Bund and
Prorpective Citizens' Association (German American Bund, Amerikadeutscher
Volksbund), and it shall be hereinafter termed "the bund."'
Article II
AIMS AND PURPOSES
The aims and purposes of this organization shall be —
(1) Above all to uphold and defend the Constitution and the laws of the
I nived States of America.
(2) To respect and honor the flag and institutions of the United States of
America, and to cultivate their lofty ideals.
(3) To promote goodwill, lasting friendship, and continued beneficial rela-
tions between the United States of America and Germanv.
3714 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
1 4 ) To defend with all lawful means at our disposal the good name and
honor of our mother country (Germany) against base defamation, willful and
poisonous lies, and purposeful malice, emanating from many ill-wishing, jealous,
avaricious, or ignorant source whatsoever, be it race, people, tribe, clan, nation,
association, or individual : against propaganda spread by print, script, or
mouth, openly or covertly, through books, magazines, newspapers, leaflets, or
merely cowardly rumors.
(5) To try to bring a better understanding to our American fellow citizens
of the real and undisputable German achievements in the sciences and arts,
the German inventions and contributions toward the advancement of agri-
culture, industry, and commerce; the great, world-wide recognized German
institutions of learning, the German high standard of the various professions,
handcrafts, and labor, the outstanding German laws and institutions for the
protection and welfare of the country as a whole, the ancient German ideals
of liberty, justice, honor, and education.
(6) To abstain from useless, harmful, and ignoble propaganda and incrim-
inations of any kind.
(7) To act at all times, everywhere, and under all conditions, as straight-
forward, courageous, just, and honorable descendants of the Germanic race,
setting an example of blameless conduct, thereby creating an atmosphere of
genuine goodwill toward the German people and their Government.
(8) To work incessantly and courageously for the fundamental right of
every civilized nation to tend to its own business of self-government without
interference from outsiders.
(9) To cooperate freely and willingly with all persons of goodwill, to promote
mutual understanding and friendship among nations, and for an honorable
peace among mankind.
(10) To keep our bund clean of heart and mind, banning all selfish inclina-
tions, and to stand unwaveringly for our own as well as the welfare of our
fellow citizens.
(11) To be and remain worthy of our Germanic blood, our German mother-
land, our German brothers and sisters, and to cultivate our German language,
customs, and ideals : and to be upstandingly proud of these principles.
(12) To always remember that only in unity there is strength, and that,
if firmly united, we shall be of real value and a desirable and respected class of
law abiding citizens of the United States of America.
Article III
ORGANIZATION
The bund shall be organized in departments, districts, local units., and
branches. A local having less than 20 members shall hereinafter be termed
'branch." There shall be one department in the East comprising the local
units in the States of Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Maine, Maryland, Massa-
chusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, South
Carolina, Pennsylvania. Rhode -Island, Virginia, Vermont, West Virginia, and
Delaware, also including the District of Columbia.
One department in the Middle West, comprising the local units in the States
of Alabama, Arkansas. Illinois. Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana,
Michigan, Minnesota. Mississippi, Missouri, Wyoming, Ohio, Oklahoma, Ten-
nessee, Texas, and Wisconsin ; and
One department in the West comprising the local units in the States of
Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico.
Oregon, North Dakota. South Dakota, Utah, and Washington.
There shall be as many districts within the departments as shall be from
time to time fixed by the national convention of the bund or by the national
executive committee.
Article IV
MEMBERSHIP
Section 1. Membership in this bund is primarily open to all American and
prospective citizens of Aryan blood, of German extraction, and of good reputa-
tion. Membership may also be extended to other national elements filling the
requirements of our membership application.
assa-
itional
UN-AMERICAN VIH )1'A(JAN1 >A ACTIVITIES 3715
Si i. _. An applicant may be admitted to the bund as si as lie receives
his membership card, signed and approved by the national leader or Ids ac-
credited representative. Admission to membership in any local or branch
signifies membership in the national organization.
Sec. •">. Application for membership may be rejected without stating the rea-
sons for such rejection.
Ski . 4. Withdrawal from membership of this organization must be made in
writing and be accompanied by the surrender of the membership card and
pin, as well as any other properly, belonging to or being significant of the bund.
In such event the membership dues must he paid up until and for the month of
withdrawal.
Abticie V
NATIONAL CONVENTION
Section 1. The legislative body of the bund shall be the national convention,
to be held annually in the first week of September, at a place to be fixed
by the national executive committee by notice sent by mail to the various local
units, at least 30 days prior to the date of such convention. The national
executive committee shall have the power to postpone the date of the national
convention for not more than 60 days, provided notice of such postponement
is sent to the local units not later than July in.
Six. 2. The basis of representation at the national convention shall be as
follows: Each local group shall he entitled to 1 delegate for its first 200 mem-
bers or less, and 1 delegate for each additional 200 members or major fraction
thereof.
Sec. 3. Each delegate shall be entitled to 1 vote. The vote of any delegate
absent and not represented by an alternate shall be cast by the majority of the
delegates present from his department.
Sec. 4. A quorum shall exist in the national convention when 50 percent of
the local units are represented as provided above.
Article VI
NATIONAL OFFICERS
ne< tion 1. The national convention shall elect a national leader, who, in turn,
shall have the power to nominate and, with the advice and consent of the
national convention, shall appoint a national vice leader, a supervisor of na-
tional organization, a national secretary, national treasurer, a public and
political relations counsel, a supervisor of press affairs, and a supervisor of
economic development. The office of national secretary and national treasurer
may be held by one person.
Sec. 2. Such officers shall serve until the adjournment of the succeeding
national convention following their appointment and thereafter until their
successors are chosen. Vacancies in these offices occurring between national
conventions shall be filled by the national executive committee.
Sec. 3. The national executive committee shall consist of the above officers,
the department leaders, the national commander of the protective organization,
and the leader of the youth division, all of whom shall be and with the advice
and consent of the national convention, be appointed by the national leader.
Any two or more of the above offices may be held by the' same person.
Sec 4. In all cases arising out of the provision expressed in article XVI,
section 2, also in such cases where the national executive committee has ac-
quired property, real or personal, such national executive committee shall
appoint three trustees whose duty is shall be to hold for the bund such prop-
erty as trustees for the bund, unless otherwise specified in article XVI
section 2.
Article VII
ORDER OF BUSINESS
section 1. The order of business at the national convention shall be as
follows :
1. Call to order.
2. Election of committee on credentials.
3716 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
3. Presenting credentials.
4. Report of committee on credentials.
5. Roll call.
6. Reading of the minutes.
7. Appointment of committees.
8. Reports of officers and the national executive committee.
9. Nomination and election of officers.
10. Reports of committees.
11. Installation of officers.
12. New business.
13. Unfinished business.
14. Adjournment.
Akticle VIII
The sequence of the above order of business may be altered or amplified by
consent of the delegates at the national convention.
Article IX
Section 1. Duties of the national leader. — It shall be the duty of the leader to
devote his whole time to the interests of the bund. He shall preside at all sessions
of the national convention and of the national executive committee and shall
perform the executive duties of the bund when the same is not in session and shall
exercise a general supervision over the affairs of the bund : he may convene the
national executive committee when deemed necessary and shall have authority
to call a national convention at any time or upon request of the majority of the
department leaders, if required. He shall have power to appoint deputy national
officers to represent the bund ; he shall be empowered to adjust all grievances
referred to him in conformity with this constitution : he shall interpret all laws
relating to the bund and shall decide all controversies and appeals referred to
him by local units or members thereof. Such decision shall be final unless reversed
by the national inquiry and arbitration board at their first meeting after such
decisions shall have been rendered. He shall grant and sign all charters emanat-
ing from the bund and shall be jointly responsible with the national treasurer for
the disbursements of all funds from the treasury of the bund ; he shall supervise
the official publication and the management of the economic development ; he
shall organize, or cause to be organized, all local units and shall have power to
call local unit meetings and convene local units and may preside at any regular
or special meeting of local units ; he shall have power to suspend or remove any
district or local unit officer for sufficient cause, subject, however, to the right of
appeal of such district and local unit officer as herein provided ; he shall also have
the power to suspend or remove any department leader or any member of the na-
tional executive committee, by and with the advice and consent of the majority of
the national executive committee for a sufficient cause, subject, however, to the
right of appeal of the aggrieved parties to, and a fair hearing by the national
inquiry and arbitration board. He shall also have the right to suspend any
member from membership pending filing of charges and hearing on such charges
as hereinafter provided.
Sec. 2. Impeachment of the national leader. — The national leader may he re-
moved from office for good cause on impeachment proceedings brought upon motion
by two-thirds of the members of the national executive committee. The national
convention shall be the only authority to hear and try impeachment proceedings
against the national leader. Immediately after charges, based upon such sup-
port of a two-thirds decision of the national executive committee, have been filed
with the chairman of the inquiry and arbitration board, it is the duty of the vice
leader to call within 2 weeks a special national convention to decide place and time
and try such charges as may be preferred.
Sec. 3. Duties of rice national leader.— It shall be the duty of the vice national
leader to devote his whole time to the interests of the bund. He shall assist the
leader in the discharge of his duties at national conventions and shall perform such
other duties as may be assigned to him by the leader.
In the case of removal of the national leader from office or of his death, resigna-
tion, or inability to discharge the powers and duties of said office, the same
devolve on the vice national leader.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3717
Sko. 4. Duties of the national secretary. — Ir shall be the duty of the national
secretary to keep con-eel records of the proceedings of the national convention;
preserve all important documents, papers, accounts, letters received, and copies
of letters sent by him on business of the bund : he shall keep a general roll of all
members with the name. age. number of card, and date of admission, together with
a roll of all members suspended, transferred, etc. ; he shall receive all applications
for charters and shall sign and grant same when authorized by the national
leader : he shall have charge of the seal of the bund and affix the same to all
official documents.
Sec. 5. Duties of the national treasurer. — -The national treasurer shall receive
all money due the national treasury and give bis receipt for the same: he shall
deposit it in banks to be selected by the national leader, disbursements to be sub-
ject to the joint signature of the national leader and the national treasurer ; he
shall pay all legal bills due by the bund on recommendation of the national leader ;
be shall give a bond to the bund in the amount of $2,500 for the faithful perform-
ance of his duties. Should the amount of money in the hands of the national
treasurer at any time exceed the amount for which he is bonded, the national
executive committee shall proceed to have the bond raised to meet the requirements
of the case.
Sec. 6. Duties of supervisor of national organization. — It shall be the duty of
the supervisor of national organization to devote his whole time to the bund. He
shall have charge, under the national leader, of the formation of new local units
and the forwarding of the work of the bund in all parts of the country.
Sec. 7. Duties of public-relations counsel. — The public-relations counsel shall
devote his whole time to the work of the bund. It shall be his duty to advance the
principles of the bund in every legitimate way, so that the general public may
obtain a true picture of the objects and purposes for which the bund is founded.
Sec. 8. Duties of supervisor of press affairs. — The supervisor of press affairs
shall give all his time to the bund. Under the direction of the national leader lie
shall have charge of the official organs of the bund and such other relations with
the press as he may be authorized to conduct by the national leader.
Sec. 9. Duties of the supervisor of economic development. — It shall be the duty
of the supervisor of economic development to encourage and foster trade by and
between persons of Germanic blood in the United States and to take such measures
to that end as he may be directed by the national leader.
Article X
COMPENSATION OF NATIONAL OFFICERS
Section 1. The National officers shall receive such compensation from the
funds of the bund as may be fixed by the national convention of the bund.
Article XI
NATIONAL EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE
Section 1. Between national conventions, the administrative power shall be
vested in the national executive committee constituted as above described.
Such committee shall have the power to fix the salaries of department leaders,
district leaders, and other subordinate officials or employees who may from time
to time be appointed by the national leader or the national executive committee.
It shall further have power to fill vacancies in all national, department, or dis-
trict offices, its appointees to continue in office until the close of the national
convention following their appointment.
Article XII
INQUIRY AND ARBITRATION BOARD
Section 1. During the national convention the national leader shall nominate
and. by and with the advice and consent of the national convention, shall appoint
an inquiry and arbitration board of seven members, whose duty it shall be to
hear and pass on all appeals and such matters as are exclusively under the
jurisdiction of this board in accordance with this constitution. It shall also
94931— 39— vol. 6 2
3718 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
take cognizance of such other matters as may be referred to it by the national
leader. The members of this board shall serve without compensation.
Article XIII
DEPARTMENT ORGANIZATION
Section 1. Departments shall be chartered by the national executive committee
and shall be composed of the local units within their respective areas. De-
partment charters shall be signed by the national leader and the national
secretary.
Sec. 2. Each department shall have a department leader and department vice
leader and such other officers as the department leader may determine. The
department leaders and department vice leaders shall be nominated and, by
and with the advice and consent of the national convention, shall be appointed
by the national leader during the national convention and shall serve until the
close of the next national convention, or until their successors are appointed.
Sec. 3. Each department leader shall have general control of the affairs of his
department, subject to the rulings of the national leader and as specified under
article IX. He shall also have power to call department conventions at such
times and places and for such purposes as he may deem best.
Article XIV
DISTRICT ORGANIZATION
Section 1. The national executive committee, immediately after the close of
the national convention, shall designate and prescribe the jurisdiction of the dis-
tricts which it deems proper to constitute for administrative purposes.
Sec. 2. The national leader, upon recommendation of the department leader,
shall appoint the leaders of the respective districts so constituted, who shall
serve until the close of the next succeeding national convention.
Sec. 3. Each district leader shall have general control of the affairs of his
district, subject to the rulings of his department leader and of the national
leader.
Article XV
LOCAL UNIT ORGANIZATION
Section 1. Each local unit shall receive a charter from the national leader.
Local units may be formed by persons eligible to membership in the bund and
shall receive a charter, providing the application therefor is favorably passed
upon by the department leader and by the national leader. Local unit charters
shall be countersigned by the department leader.
Sec. 2. Whether or not the formation of such a local unit is advisable or
timely shall be determined by the department leader of the department in whose
area it lies.
Article XVI
RULES FOR LOCAL UNITS
Section 1. Each local unit is governed by the constitution of the national
organization.
Sec. 2. All property, real or personal, except current funds, acquired by such
local unit in the course of its existence, is to be held by trustees in trust for
the local unit, with the proviso as expressed in the following section. Such
trustees, three in number, to be elected during a membership meeting, shall
file with the local leader a declaration of trust with relation to all such property
of the local unit which is held by them, and shall give bond in such amount
as the nature of the property held in trust requires.
Seo. 3. The charter of any local unit may be suspended or revoked by the
national leader for any of the following reasons: Improper conduct, refusing
or neglecting to conform to this constitution and to the orders of the national
leader or the national executive committee, neglecting or refusing to make its
returns or reports, refusing or neglecting to install a successor to any officer
removed by the national leader. But the charter shall not be suspended for
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3719
any of the foregoing reasons until the local unit has been notified and an oppor-
tunity given to answer charges against it. These charges shall be heard in
the first instance by the national Leader, and it' be finds thai the charter should
be revoked or suspended, the local unit may appeal, within 30 days in writing,
to the national inquiry and arbitration board, whose decision is final. Should a
local unit refuse to answer charges against it, the charter shall he suspended
or revoked as the national Leader may determine. In case the charier of, a
local unit is revoked, all property of the local unit shall become the property
of the trustees of the bund. If the charter of a local unit is revoked or
suspended by the national leader, and pending hearing of the charges and
appeals, if any. from the decision of the national leader suspending or re-
voking such charter, all of the property and funds held in trust for or in the
name of the local unit shall be sequestered by the trustees of the bund and
held by them pending the result of the hearing of the charges.
Sec. 4. The local unit shall not withdraw from the bund or dissolve as long
as five members in good standing object thereto. Before the withdrawal of
any local unit, 3 months' notice in writing of such withdrawal must be given
to the national leader, and all books, papers, charters, funds, and ail other
properties returned to the national executive committee.
Sec. 5. Each local unit shall have the following officers : Leader, vice leader,
secretary, and treasurer, and such other officers as the local unit shall decide.
Sec. 6. The leader, the vice leader, the secretary, and the treasurer shall be
appointed upon recommendation of the district leader by the department
leader, subject to approval by the national leader.
Seo. 7. At a membership meeting in August of each year, each unit shall
elect delegates to the national convention in accordance with the rules for
representation provided in article V.
Article XVII
DUTIES OF MEMBERS
Section 1. It shall be the duty of members to conduct themselves in a
proper manner so as not to bring the bund into discredit ; to act loyally with
respect to the bund, its officers, and members ; to refrain from encouraging
or advocating division of funds of local units or of the bund, or the separation
of any local unit from the bund, and to otherwise conform with and live up to
the high ideals and principles set forth in article II.
Sec. 2. A member can be expelled for the following reasons : Because of
acts dishonorable and disgraceful in nature and character ; for acts contrary
to the principles, aims, and purposes of the bund ; for scandalous and offensive
acts tending to injure the reputation and esteem of the bund ; for default in
payment of membership dues, if such default is not sufficiently excusable ; for
knowingly and willfully giving false information while filing his membership
application.
Article XVIII
EIGHTS OF MEMBERS
Section 1. Every member of the bund shall be entitled to a fair hearing for
offenses involving reprimand, suspension, or expulsion, except only for non-
payment of clues or assessments. No member shall be placed on hearing unless
charges duly specifying the offense, so as to fully apprize him of the nature
jufb thereof and enable him to prepare his defense, have been presented to and
^foi accepted by the local unit in writing, signed by a member of the local unit
" Such or Dy the district, department, or national leader.
Sec. 2. The local unit leader, the district leader, the department leader, and
the national leader shall each have the power to suspend any member pending
the hearing of charges againest him. If the charges are finally dismissed
either after hearing or after appeal, the member charged shall be reinstated to
membership and all dues which may have accrued pending his suspension shall
be remitted.
Sec. 3. At the meeting at which the charges are presented to the local unit,
the leader of the local unit shall appoint a time and place for the holding of
the hearing, not less than 1 week nor more than 2 weeks from the date of
the meeting at which the charges were presented. Within 3 days after the
date of the meeting at which the charges were presented, the secretary of
the local unit shall forward a true written copy of the same and notice of
g, si
iropertJ
[for
3720 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
the date and place set for hearing to the accused by registered mail at his
last known post-office address. Within the same time he shall also notify the
member preferring the charges of the time and place set for the hearing, and
such shall be notice for the person presenting the charges to attend or
present a legal affidavit sustaining the information on which the charge was
based, together with all evidence he may have appertaining thereto.
Seo. 4. Such charges shall be submitted to an inquiry and arbitration com-
mittee of five members to be appointed by the leader of the local unit. Such
inquiry and arbitration board shall meet at the time and place set for the
hearing of the charges and shall report to the local unit at its next membership
meeting upon the disposition of such charges recommended by such inquiry
and arbitration board.
Sec. 5. If the inquiry and arbitration board shall recommend the expulsion,
suspension, or reprimand of the person charged, and if the person charged, feel-
ing aggrieved, desires to appeal, he shall have the right to appeal from the deci-
sion of this local arbitration board to the next higher authority, which would
be the department arbitration board, provided he forwards within 30 days,
notice of his desire to appeal, together with all documents and statements
tending to support such appeal. If the judgment of the local board is affirmed,
the aggrieved has a further recourse to the national arbitration board as
highest authority from whose decision there shall be no further appeal.
Article XIX
Section 1. The inquiry and arbitration board for local units and departments
shall consist of five members who shall serve without compensation. A quorum
in any of these boards exists when 3 of the 5 members of the respective boards
are present.
Article XX
FINANCES
Section 1. The national convention shall have the right to fix the dues for all
local units and the proportion of the dues of each local unit which shall be paid
over by the local unit to the national treasurer, the department treasurer, and
auxiliary fund.
Sec. 2. Each member shall also pay an initiation fee fixed, or to be fixed, by
the national convention, which initiation fee shall be paid over in full to the
national treasurer.
Seo. 3. Each local unit shall pay to the national treasurer, department treas-
urer, and auxiliary fund the proportion of the monthly dues which shall be
fixed by the national convention to be paid to the respective treasurers. Such
payments shall be made on or before the 10th day of the month preceding.
Article XXI
Responsibility and Property Rights
Section 1. The organization does not assume responsibility for any claims of
damages, caused by and accruing from the misdeeds of its individual members,
and it expressly indemnifies itself against such charges and claims. The organ-
ization assumes responsibility for such claims and damages only as may directly
result from the duly authorized acts of its officers, rightfully holding title to
their offices.
Article XXII
DISSOLUTION
Section 1. The dissolution of the national organization can only be decided
upon by a national convention, provided that 90 percent of the delegates entitled
to be present and vote, or their duly accredited representatives are present, at
such a convention, and provided that such motion is supported by a majority vote
of three-fourths of all the votes eligible.
Seo. 2. Should in such a manner a dissolution of this organization be resolved.
said convention is entitled to dispose of the finances and any other tangible
property of this organization, and if deemed advisable, to transfer it to such
organization or organizations which are known as sponsoring and fostering a
like movement.
3721
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Article XXIII
RATIFICATION
Si a dion 1. All acts performed by prior officials of the bund and all charters
heretofore granted by prior officials of the bund are hereby ratified and affirmed.
Article XXIV
tans-
. w
decided
entitled
Kent, it
nty vote
tangible
• to *h
AMENDMENT
Section 1. This constitution may be amended at any national convention by
a vote of two-thirds of the total authorized representation thereat, provided
that the proposed amendment shall have been submitted through the national
secretary to the various local units by mailing the same to them at least 30 days
prior to the convening of the next national convention; and provided further
thai this constitution may be amended by unanimous vote at any convention
without notice. It may also be amended between national conventions, by a
proxy vote of such a number of local units as would in a national convention be
represented by two-thirds of the delegates thereof.
This constitution was unanimously adopted at the national convention at
"Deutschhorst," Croydon, Pa., in 1935, and amended in Buffalo, N. Y., in 1936.
Purpose and Aims of the German-American Bund (Amerikadeutscher Volks-
btjnd), Militant Organization of Patriotic Americans
To unite all honorable, courageous, and loyal citizens and aspirants to citizen-
ship of the United States of America, of German descent, proud of their blood
traditions, language, and ideals of freedom, justice, duty, and absolute honesty,
into one great, Nation-wide, respect-commanding German-American Bund, sol-
emnly resolved :
1. Above all to honor and defend the Constitution, flag, and institutions of
these United States of America, and to cultivate the lofty ideals of the founders
of the Nation.
2. To zealously combat all atheistic teachings and all abuse of the pulpits
designed to undermine the morals, ethics, or patriotism of Americans, and to
as vigorously defend the right of every man to absolute religious freedom in
every respect.
3. To unequivocally oppose all racial intermixture between Aryans (white
Gentiles! on the one hand, and Asiatics, Africans, or other non-Aryans on the
other, to the end that the race-legislation already enacted in 28 States of
the Union and to a degree incorporated in our country's immigration laws, may
be scientifically perfected and applied throughout the Nation ; to earnestly strive
to further a true respect, understanding, and friendship between these racially
dissimilar groups, based upon a recognition and not upon a denial of the
Almighty's immutable racial laws.
4. To uncompromisingly fight, with every lawful means at our disposal, against
all subversive internationalism, in order that Marxism and all allied phenomena,
from the Communist Party which openly advocates the overthrow by force and
violence of our Government, to the liberal-pacifistic forces undermining the
morale of youth, from the alien-controlled, international so-called labor move-
ments preaching the madness of class hatred throughout the world, to the rackets
of international high finance which are enslaving the Nation, may be outlawed
and uprooted; to just as stanchly champion every American political move-
ment, labor organization, financial institution, etc., insofar as nothing is placed
above the Nation and no alien leadership or domination is tolerated, serving the
interests of true social justice, teaching each element of the citizenry to under-
stand the need for cooperation with the others and recognizing as its ideal
the following basic principle : "The common good before private gain."
•j. To unite with all Americans defending the Aryan culture and code of
ethics upon which this Nation was founded, helping to build a great American
movement of liberation, in order that the dictatorship of a small, racially and
ethically alien. Jewish-international minority, to which the mind of the entire
Nation is rapidly being subjected, may be broken, restoring true proportionate
representation to the 100,000,000 Aryan Americans in the vital fields of the
press, radio, stage, screen, education, legislation, justice, finance, and the profes-
sions, so that the aims outlined in the preceding paragraphs may be achieved
3722 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
and these United States reconstituted the sovereign and independent, God-
fearing and cultured, racially and ethically healthy Nation envisaged hy its
founders.
6. The swastika, our fighting symbol, has already become the common sign of
recognition of defenders of Aryan nationalism against the Bolshevik scourge in
Germany, Great Britain, White Russia, the Netherlands, the Scandinavian
countries, Canada, and other countries, regardless of the form of government or
religion involved !
The greeting of the outstretched right arm and hand, which means the
same thing, is used by all these movements, and in addition by others in Italy,
Prance, Belgium, Spain, etc.
There can be no symbol or greeting better suited to unite the awakened,
fighting, patriotic American millions .as well.
7. To strive for a true peace, based upon mutual understanding and friend-
ship between our country and others, by recognizing and respecting the differ-
ences which exist between even the various Aryan nations and by defending the
fundamental right of every civilized country to govern itself without inter-
ference from outside, by disseminating among our countrymen all truths known
to us concerning other countries and of value in serving the cause of such
peace and friendship, and finally by exposing and combatting all atrocity and
boycott propaganda, base defamation, distortion of news and malicious lies,
tending to create hatred and a war-psychosis promising benefit only to the ever-
lasting international parasites.
8. To recognize as eternal law that only he can serve his God and country
well who strives to develop his capabilities in accord with his inherited
characteristics, and that consequently a renegade to his race cannot be a good
American citizen ; to therefore defend our right to cherish the German lan-
guage and German customs and our right and duty to defend the good name of
all things German against slanderous attacks of any kind, emanating from any
ill-wishing, jealous, avarcious, or ignorant source whatsoever, be it nation, race,
tribe, association, or individual ; to force Nation-wide recognition of the in-
controvertible fact that our organization desires to be no more and no less
than a useful part of the desparately needed Great Aryan movement for a
free and clean America, accords the same respect to every other element of
our country's citizenry which it demands for ours, is as American as any
other and is entitled to the same rights, and privileges under the Bill of Rights
accorded to any other organization in the country. Free America !
All patriotic Aryan Americans, seeking truth and fighting spirit, are welcome
at our meetings and in our ranks.
Local units all over the country: frequent English-language meetings.
Vacation camps for young and old. to cleanse heart and soul of the "red"
rottenness rampant in the cities.
German-American Business League, Inc. (DKV). to combat boycott rackets.
Four newspapers free of Jewish domination, with rapidly growing English-
language sections :
Deutscher Weckruf unci Beobachter and the Free American, published by
the A. V. Publishing Corporation. Inc.. I'. O. box 24, Station K, New York,
N. Y.
Philadelphia-Peutseher Weckruf unci Beobachter and the Free American.
P. O. box 5020. Philadelphia, Pa.
Deutscher Weckruf and the Free American. 3853 N. Western Avenue, Chicago,
111.
The above three publications are published weekly, subscription rate $3 per
year.
California Weckruf and the Free American, 634 West Fifteenth Street. Los
Angeles, Calif.
For more free literature kindly communicate with German-American Bund,
National Headquarters, ITS East Eighty-fifth Street, room 6. New York. N. Y.
Telephone BUtterfield 8-8847. Mail address. P. O. Box 1, Station K. New York,
N. Y
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Knhn, will yon explain for the record the ad-
ministrative set-up of your organization as to districts, departments,
sections, and so forth?
Mr. Krnx. The bund is divided into three divisions; East. Middle
West, and West, and each division is divided into districts which are
the States.
"red"
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3723
Mr. Whitley. How many districts are there; 48?
Mr. Kuhn. Forty-seven.
Mr. Whitley. Forty-seven districts?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What State does not have a district?
Mr. Kuhn. Louisiana : and local units.
Mr. Whitley. Local units within the districts?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes,
Mr. Whitley. How many local units are there, Mr. Kuhn?
Mr. Kuhn. I cannot tell you exactly; around 100.
The Chairman. Around 100, did he say?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Local units?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That is the smallest administrative group of the
organization ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. The local unit?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Whitley. And there are, you say, about 100?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Does the fact that you have no district organiza-
tion for the State of Louisiana mean that you have no members in
that State I
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. Does each district organization which you have al-
ready named have a department leader?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Does each district have a leader?
Mr. Kuhn. No — well, if you want to call it the same thing —
a department leader.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Does each local unit or group have a leader ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. It does?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. In your administrative set-up do you have a plan
of sending representatives to national conventions that elect the
officers ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mi'. Whitley. Which decides the policies of the organization?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Does that convention elect all of the officers?
Mr. Kuhn. Just elects the president.
Mr. Whitley. And he in turn appoints the officers?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; appoints the officers.
Mr. Whitley. The national officers and also the other officers?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. So you appoint the department heads and the heads
of the local units?
Mr. Kuhn. Xo; the local unit heads are appointed by the depart-
ment.
Mr. Whitley. By the department ?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Whitley. Subject to your approval?
3724 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Subject to approval.
Mr. Whitley. I see. What are the qualifications for membership
in the German-American Bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, they have to be American citizens and have to
be an Aryan.
Mr. Whitley. Have to be what?
Mr. Kuhn. An Aryan.
Mr. Whitley. Any other qualifications?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, they have to be in good standing, of course, and
that is all.
Mr. Whitley. What do you. mean by "Aryan"?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, what I mean
Mr. Whitley (interposing). What is your interpretation, I mean?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, have to be a member of the white race.
Mr. Whitley. White race?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What group do you consider members of the white
race ?
Mr. Kuhn. Everybody which belongs to the white race.
Mr. Whitley. What groups do you exclude from the white race?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, for instance, the Asiatic races.
Mr. Whitley. What?
Mr. Kuhn. Asiatic races.
Mr. Whitley. Any others excluded?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, for instance, the colored race.
Mr. Whitley. Colored race.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Any others?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. What do you mean by "the Asiatic races"? All of
them ?
Mr. Kuhn. Not all of them, not so far as the Nordic race is
concerned.
Mr. Starnes. What race in Asia do you consider the Nordic race?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I do not think that has anything to do with
the investigation but I can, if you want, give my position on that.
I mean
Mr. Starnes (interposing). You do not consider the Japanese of
the Nordic strain?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Or the Chinese?
Mr. Kuhn. No. That is the yellow race ; that is the Asiatic yellow
race. There is an Asiatic Nordic race.
Mr. Starnes. I am trying to get what you mean when you name
the race.
Mr. Kuhn. The Asiatic race — I think I know what you want me
to say; there are no Jews in the organization, if that is what you
mean.
Mr. Starnes. No; I just want to get your interpretation of what
you consider the Nordic race.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, in Asia the only ones that are absolutely of the
Nordic, of the Caucasian.
Mr. Starnes. You do not consider people of India Caucasian?
Mr. Kuhn. No; of course not.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3725
Mr. Starnes. Persia?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Tibet?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is the same thing; the people of Tibet and
Persia are the same as far as race is concerned; there is only a
political
Mr. Starnes (interposing). Palestine?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I never had a chance to decide that. What I
mean, is a man's application has to be examined first.
Mr.« Thomas. Each applicant has to file an application?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. What information do they have to give in the appli-
cation ?
Mr. Kuhn. They have to give their name and place of birth and
have to show some paper that they are American citizens, which is
investigated.
Mr. Thomas. Do you have some members who are not American
citizens ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; not to my knowledge; absolutely not. Ever
since 1036 at the formation of the new organization, we could only
take American citizens ; after 1936 each member had to be an Amer-
ican citizen.
Mr. Thomas. Do you have a questionnaire, a written question-
naire ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; we have an application blank.
Mr. Thomas. Do you have a copy of the application with you ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I have one here [handing to Mr. Thomas].
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn. Did you issue the order that only Amer-
ican citizens were to be members of the German-American Bund \
Mr. Kuhn. Well, after the approval of the national convention.
Mr. Whitley. You issued that order?
Mr. Kuhn. After the approval of the national convention; the na-
tional convention has decided that first.
Mr. Whitley. The preceeding organization, the Friends of New
Germany had both German and American citizens?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right ; it had German citizens.
Mr. Whitley. At the time you changed the name of the organiza-
tion ?
Mr. Kuhn. I did not change the name of the organization; the
Friends of New Germany was dissolved.
Mr. Whitley. It was completely dissolved ?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely dissolved and the new organization was
formed.
Mr. Whitley. And that was one of the conditions of membership
in the new organization?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, absolutely.
Mr. Whitley. That the members were to be American citizens?
Mr. Kuhn. American citizens to be members.
Mi'. Whitley. Now that order was issued by you w,ith the ap-
proval of the convention?
Mr. Kuhn. Right.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, as I recall during our previous inter-
view at the time you gave me a statement in New York, you advised
■M
3726 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
that those orders came from Germany through a consul in the United
States ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know anything about that; I said I heard it.
The German Government gave no orders so far as I know, no written
order; I heard it. But that was done after we had taken action
tirst. I was the one who brought that order up first, jn 1935 at
the convention in Philadelphia, in 1935, when the Friends of New
Germany — as the record shows — I was the one which brought that
question up and demanded that all German citizens have to be taken
out.
A little later, as I said — I never saw a written order or anything
of that kind, but I just heard the German Government, through its
counsel service ordered that German citizens should get out of every
political organization — it did not name the bund. It said every po-
litical organization. That is absolutely correct.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever contact any representative of the
German Government with reference to that order?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, yes; that is right. I was in Detroit at that time
and I cooperated with the representative of the German Government
in helping get the addresses of those in the former organization, the
Friends of New Germany; I gave them the addresses so far as I
knew them, of those who were German citizens.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. Well then as a matter of fact, Mr. Kuhn,
what happened was that order which caused you to eliminate non-
citizens from the new organization came from Germany?
Mr. Kuhk. Absolutely not. They did just what I tried to empha-
size at the organization, but the order did not come from Germany
until afterward.
Mr. Whitley. The order did come through which you have just
indicated ; you said the order came through ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Just a minute. Let me finish. You said that an
order came through; that is, that no German citizen could be con-
nected with such an organization in this country, and that you
helped, that you cooperated by giving the names and addresses of
those who had been in the Friends of New Germany?
Mr Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. Who were not American citizens?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but I tried to emphasize the fact that we had the
order first, in our organization, before the German order came
through.
Mr. Whitley. This order was issued before the bund was or-
ganized ?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I had the approval of the national convention.
Mr Whitley. But you have already stated that you had both
citizens of Germany and America in the Friends of New Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman May I interpose a question without interrupting
your chain of thought '.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
The Chairman. Mr. Kuhn, the order from Germany had nothing
to do with your action and activity, you said?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I said I never saw the order.
-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3727
The Chairman. Yes; but you said you cooperated with the council
and furnished the names of German citizens who were members of
the organization.
Mr. KniN. Yes; as a matter of politeness.
The Chairman. Politeness?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes: as there might be some German citizens who might
still be in the organization and I did not want them.
The Chairman. Did they ask you to furnish the addresses?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. Or the names?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. You did that as a matter of politeness?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely; politeness.
The Chairman. Your only object was to be polite to the German
consul '.
Mr. Kuhn. Oh. yes. For a long time, back in 1934, in the national
convention in Xew York I said that the German citizen has to be out
if we want to make it a political organization.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Starnes. May I ask a question before you resume?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Why was it necessary for the German Government
to issue an order?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, I do not know why they did.
Mr. Starxes. But they did issue such an order?
Mr. Kuhn. I heard about just as you.
Mr. Starxes. Who told you about it?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, I don't know who told me.
Mr. Starxes. Some representative of the German Government?
Mr. Kuhn. Xo representative of the German Government told me.
Mr. Starxes. But you did receive some knowledge or information
to the effect that the German Government had issued an order requir-
ing German citizens to disassociate themselves from such
organizations ?
Mr. Kuhn. That was not from a representative; that was in the
newspapers.
Mr. Starxes. Why was it you went to the German consular service
in this country to give information as to German citizens?
Mr. Kuhn. That was because I wanted them out of my organiza-
tion.
Mr. Starxes. Did the consul have any power to take them out ?
Mr. Kfhx. I do not know that : I do not know what power he has.
I suppose a consul would have some rights about the citizens of his
country.
Mr. Starxes. But you thought he had some power
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know what power he had; you would have to
ask him.
Mr. Starxes. I cannot understand your unusual politeness in this
instance unless you thought there was some connection between the
German Government and your organization.
Mr. Kuhn. It was because I wanted them out of my organization.
Mr. Starxes. You wanted them out of your organization because
you wanted to transform the organization into a political organiza-
tion ; is that correct ?
3728 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Correct; a political organization; and citizens of an-
other country have not anything to do in a political organization.
Mr. Starnes. So it was for strategic reasons that you furnished
this information about German citizens, whom you wanted out of
the organization, so that you could have a political organization com-
posed of American citizens?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; and at that time Mr. Dickstein was raising hell
down here in Washington and making statements about foreign citi-
zens, and I said we wanted to get these men out
The Chairman (interposing). You have answered the question;
do not volunteer remarks.
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). Well, he asked for an explanation. I
was explaining the reason we did not want German citizens con-
nected with the organization.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, as I understand from your explanation,
the preceding organization, the Friends of New Germany, was a
nonpolitical organization ; is that correct ?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; it wasn't.
Mr. Whitley. It was not?
Mr. Kuhn. No — Well I do not know about it ; I wasn't head of it.
Mr. Whitley. You were not head of it but you did hold an office,
as I understand?
Mr. Kuhn. That was later, a few months ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. And at the same time you decided to call a con-
vention to change the name and set up an organization which was
to be a successor organization and which was to be a political or-
ganization, and at the same time you decided to do that, with the
approval of the convention, the German Government issued instruc-
tions to remove all German citizens from that organization?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. What was the sequence; I still do not quite under-
stand.
Mr. Kuhn. As I told you, as I tried to explain, if we were to try
to build up a political organization — you can't have as members,
citizens of another country in your organization, because as citizens
of another country they don't have voting power, have the right to
vote; and I believe that a man who is a citizen of another country
should not be in a political organization.
Mr. Whitley. Was that your idea to dissolve the Friends of New
Germany ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And set up a political organization ?
Mr. Kuhn. That was my thought.
The Chairman. Before you leave that point, Mr. Whitley, I want
to ask another question if it will not interrupt you.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
The Chairman. Getting back to the question of furnishing these
addresses I would like to get an explanation from you as to why it
was necessary for you to go to the German consul and furnish him
the addresses of German citizens in your organization. Why was
that necessary?
Mr. Kuhn. It wasn't necessary.
The Chairman. What was the occasion for doing so if it wasn't
necessary ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3729
Mr. Kuhn. I gave the names of those members who were mem-
bers of the Friends of Now Germany, the German citizens.
The Chairman. Yon said the reason was that yon wanted to get
them out of the organization?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. In other words yon thought he had some power
to get them out of the organization?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
the Chairman. Then why did you go to him?
Mr. Kuhn. I did not want them in the organization and wanted
him to know who they were.
The Chairman. And you gave the names to the German consul
because yon thought he could do something about getting them out?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I don't know what power he had, or what action
he could take; you would have to ask him or the German Govern-
ment how much power he had.
The Chairman. But you evidently thought he had some power
when you went to him, did you not?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. You just went to him because you wanted to get
them out of the organization?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; that is right; I told them their names and ad-
dresses.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Whitley. At the same time the new organization, the Ger-
man-American Bund was set up as a political organization with all
American citizens, was there another group formed composed of
German citizens, Mr. Kuhn?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, there is a group that is composed of prospec-
tive citizens. Is that what you refer to?
Mr. Whitley. I had in mind the Chicago German Bund.
Mr. Kuhn. In Chicago?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Kuhn. That is just a small group; that has nothing to do
with our organization.
Mr. Whitley. Is that composed of German citizens?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know — I mean all German citizens?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know who the head of that organization is ?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I think — I do not recall his name. I think it is
a man by the name of Eberling, I think; I do not know for sure; I
never bothered with it.
Mr. Whitley. Fritz Eberling?
Mr. Kuhn. I think that is right.
Mr. Whitley. And that organization is composed of German citi-
zens who were formerly in the Friends of New Germany but who
these were not eligible for membership in the new political organization,
the German-American Bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, it might be that some of them are.
Mr. Whitley. Some of them?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I do not have anything to do with them ; I could
not tell you just how many. It is a very small group, in Chicago
I only, and I didn't bother about them.
3730 un-american propaganda activities
Mr. Whitley. What is the membership-
Mr. Kuhn (continuing). I agree with you that a part of its mem-
bers were formerly members of the Friends of New Germany — that
is entirely possible.
Mr. Whitley. What is the extent of the cooperation and relation-
ship between the German-American Bund and the German Bund?
Mr. Kuhn. None.
Mr. Whitley. None?
Mr. Kuhn. None.at all; it is a small group, as I told you.
Mr. Whitley. That is the only group?
Mr. Kuhn. The only group that I know of, in Chicago.
Mr. Whitley. Is there any other group or chapter of the German
Bund any place?
Mr. Kuhn. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Whitley. You do not have one in New York ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. What is the total membership of your organiza-
tion, Mr. Kuhn, at the present time?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know; I can't tell you; I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. You do not keep a membership list ?
Mr. Kuhn. Not anymore.
Mr. Whitley. Not anymore?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. When did you destroy the membership list?
Mr. Kuhn. About last year.
Mr. Whitley. And what was the reason you destroyed it?
Mr. Kuhn. The reason was there was rumor that there would be
an investigation; that was before the McNaboe investigation of the
State organization and we destroyed the membership list. That
was before the McNaboe investigation.
Mr. Whitley. Did you personally order the membership list of
the German- American Bund destroyed?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You did ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes
Mr. Whitley. Did you issue those orders m writing? ]fr g
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. As I recall during our previous interview, Mr.
Kuhn, you advised that you ordered that list destroyed
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). Yes.
Mr. Whitley (continuing). Because of the Dies committee?
Mr. Kuhn. It might be, as I said, the Dies committee was going
into action at the same time the McNaboe investigation started; it
doesn't matter; I would have destroyed it before the Dies committee
started.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. Do you have any way of estimating the
membership ?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I have a rough estimate.
Mr. Whitley. Of the total membership of your organization ?
Mr. Kuhn. I can estimate it very roughly; there are a lot of
new ones coming in and a lot of them going out.
Mr. Whitley. You receive dues monthly from the members,
active members of the organization?
Mr. Kuhn. Not all of them.
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UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3731
Mr. Whitley. You are supposed to if they are in good standing?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Can't you approximate rather accurately from the
amount of dues which come into you, plus a revision
Mr. KriiN (interposing). I can approximate it, but we do not
have a check on how many are on the list who do not pay dues,
because a man who is out of work does not pay dues, and a lot of.
men who are working only pay for a certain amount; a man with a
certain amount of family to support pays half or two-thirds, and
they do not send anything to headquarters except those who pay
the full amount.
Mr. Whitley. What is your best approximation of the present
membership, throughout the United States at the present time?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, very roughly, around 20,000.
Mr. Whitley. Around 20,000?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That is based upon the dues that you receive?
Mr. Kuhn. Xo: that is not
?
Mr. Whitley (continuing). Plus verbal information?
Mr. Kuhn. That is based upon reports which I get from new
ones coming in, as I receive the new applications.
Mr. Whitley. Has there been any very decided increase in mem-
bership in the organization?
Mr. Kuhn. No; not an increase.
Mr. Whitley. There has been an increase in recent months?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, at the time I interviewed you several
months ago you advised at that time definitely
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). There was a decrease.
Mr. Whitley (continuing). That the membership was not less
than 75,000 and not more than 100,000, and you were corroborated
by Mr. Kunzie.
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). Well, I think that was a little too
high.
Mr. Whitley. Would you like me to read the statement?
Mr. Kuhn. If you want to.
The Chairman. Let us hear it.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, reading from the transcript of our in-
terview which was held in New York, March 25, 1939, page 16 of
the transcript :
Mr. Whitley. What is your best, to the best of your knowledge, and your
best estimate — you should be able to judge — what is your opinion of the bund's
membership in the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, we are sure of over 75,000, and sure under 100,000.
Mr. Whitley. You are sure it is more than 75,000, and less than 100,000?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And that is your best estimate?
Mr. Kuhn. A year ago, about 15,000.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, when I made that statement— I think it is a
little high, and I can explain how you might have misunderstood me
there.
Mr. Whitley. I did not misunderstand you; this is the trans-
script of the record.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but I counted in the membership many who are
m the sympathizer group.
3732 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. "Whitley. That is covered in another part of the transcript.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I might say that was figured on the sympa-
thizers. The members in the sympathizers' group is about three or
four times the bund's membership.
Mr. "Whitley. Well, you gave me some more figures on the sym-
pathizers' group. I will read that to you later.
What is your present estimate of the number of members in
the
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). I can't tell you the exact number. I
can tell you roughly, that it runs from 20.000 to 25,000 members.
Mr. Whitley. The membership is from 20,000 to 25,000.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That is your best estimate now ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you say that is very rough ?
Mr. Kuhn. Very rough.
Mr. Whitley. In other words your previous estimate was about
50,000 higher than your present estimate?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, you understand that I took the sympathizers in
the membership.
The Chairman. But he said in his answer, which you read, he was
sure it was a little over 75,000?
Mr. Whitley. 75,000.
The Chairman. That he was sure.
Mr. Whitley. I believe, if my memory serves me correctly, you
made the estimate after conferring with Mr. Kunze, who is head of
the propaganda department.
Now, you have a group of members known as sympathizers?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; not members.
Mr. Whitley. Not members ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. They are the individuals who have indicated their
sympathy with the organization?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And those individuals file applications to become
members of the sympathizers' group ?
Mr. Kuhn. They are not members.
Mr. Whitley. They are listed as the sympathizers' group ?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Whitley. But they do not have any voting privileges in the
organization?
Mr. Kuhn. No; they are not members.
Mr. Whitley. What is their function; what functions do they
perform ?
Mr. Kuhn. None at all: nothing except sympathizers.
Mr. Whitley. Do they attend meetings?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You just wanted to get in those who were in sym-
pathy with you?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. But they do not take any part in the organziation,
no vote?
Mr. Kuhn. They pay the same dues; that is the idea, to get the
money.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3733
Mr. Whitley. They pay the same dues?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. As the regular members?
Mr. Krnx. Yes; the same amount of money.
Mr. Whitley. Yes; but are called sympathizers?
Mr. Kuhn. Sympathizers.
Mr. Whitley. But they pay dues '.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. ^takxes. You do not call them fellow travelers?
Mr. Kmx. Call them what?
Mr. Starxtes. You do not call them fellow travelers?
Mr. Krnx. No; I have an application if you want to see it, which
they used.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, what, to the best of your knowledge, and
as head of the organization you ought to be able to make a fair
approximation, what is your best estimate of the member of persons
in that sympathizer group?
Mr. Krnx. Well, I can't give any estimate at all.
Mr. Whitley. You can't give any?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. You get the applications?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you keep a card total do you not?
Mr. Kuhn. But I do not know how many dropped out.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. You know how many pay dues?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but I don't know how many drop out, who do
not pay any more dues.
Mr. Whitley. You can't give me from the amount coming in, of
those paying dues, you could not venture an estimate as to the total
number?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I could not say. It is two or three or four times
as many as the regular members.
Mr. Whitley. It is several times more than the membership, so if
you say you have a membership of 25,000 — and you say at the present
lime the membership is 25,000 — that would mean approximately
100,000?
Mr. Kuhn. Or 75,000.
in the I Mr. Whitley. Of course, your previous figure of from 75,000 to
100,000 would mean from 350,000 to one-half a million sympathizers.
Now what is the basis of your sympathizers figure at the moment?
, tlietl Mr. Kuhx. For the applications. I have an application blank.
Mr. Whitley. Let me read you from the previous interview we
had, what you said about the number of sympathizers.
Mr. Thomas. While you are looking that up I would like to ask
a question, if I may ?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. What dues do the sympathizers pay?
Mr. Kuhn. The same as the members.
Mr. Thomas. The same as the members.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. And what are the dues?
94931— 39— vol. 6 3
3734 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. They pay $1 on going in, with the application, and 75
cents a month.
Mr. Thomas. Seventy-five cents a month?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, $9 a year.
Mr. Thomas. They pay $9 a year?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but that doesn't all come to headquarters; that
stays at the local units.
Mr. Thomas. So that is you have 2") ,000 members and 75,000 sympa-
thizers that would be 100,000 all told, and you get $9 a year
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). That is, that would make $900,000 a
year.
Mr. Thomas. $900,000 a year.
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Thomas. And do you report to the delegates at the annual
convention the receipts?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; a certified public accountant audits the books ; the
books are audited by a C. P. A.
Mr. Thomas. And you report the expenditures?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely. The certified public accountant makes up
the statement, audits the national treasurer's records.
Mr. Thomas. Approximately the amount the bund has received in
the past year would be something in excess of $900,000?
Mr. Kuhn. Can't be. As I told you all members don't pay the
full dues ; and the headquarters don't get that.
Mr. Thomas. Yes; but that goes into the bund's fund?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. "What is the approximate amount?
Mr. Kuhn. The local units have the money for the local units.
The Chairman. Mr. Whitley, I think you ought to clarify the sit-
uation with reference to the statement that only a short time ago he
stated definitely that the membership was not less than 7">,000 and
now he says 25,000, to let us know what caused this drop in so short a
time.
Mr. Whitley. Can you explain, Mr. Kuhn
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I explained to you I am under oath.
Mr. Whitley. You are under oath.
Mr. Kuhn. I am under oath now, and I say to the best of my
knowledge I can only give you a rough estimation, but I say at a
rough estimation we have around 20,000 members.
The Chairman. What has the oath got to do with it ? Do you
mean you would testify differently if you were not under oath?
Mr. Kuhn. No, I don't; but I mean I took the sympathizers in.
Mr Whitley. You went on and discussed the sympathizers sepa-
rately. I will read you what you said about the sympathizers in
conjunction with the same testimony.
Mr. Kuhn. O. K.
Mr. Whitley. Reading from the transcript of the interview on
March 25, 1939, in New York, at page 17:
Mr. Whitley. Referring to the latter part of that statement I have just read
to you — "the fact has also been established that some 100,000 persons are willing
to be seen at public manifestations of the bund" — of course that has to do
with sympathizers who are not actual members but who are sympathizers, do
you think that the figure is correct?
Mr. Kuhn. It might he. I think that figure is low, as far as sympathizers
are concerned — sympathizers are very, very often more than that.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3735
Dr. Matthews. Sympathizing as to attending meetings or joining a parade?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is entirely different. We have hundreds of thousands
of people who cannot afford to he scon with ns, but still wholeheartedly or
partly sympathizing with us. It is hard to make an estimation, hut I have
feelings — the way the reaction comes from the groups — I have a feeling thai
our sympathizing groups is very much more. You can say it is from 1 to 10.
I really have a feeling — don't you think so. Kunze?
Dr. Matthews. Do you have anything like a name for sympathizers, like
the Communists, you know, they call them the "fellow travelers"?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. You have no organization for the sympathizers?
Mr. Kuhn. We have a sympathizers' group.
Dr. Matthews. You have that?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. They have no rights of members, and are just sympa-
thizers.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, they come out and
Dr. Matthews. What do you call that organization? You say you have
an organization for them?
Mr. Kuhn. No, no. We just give them membership cards, give them sympa-
thizers' cards. The idea is to pay dues and just show that way that they are
with us.
Mr. Whitley. Now. that is the testimony there, in March, Mr.
Kuhn, in which you state that you think the figure of 100,000 is low
for the sympathizers' group.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, it might be correct to say "4 or 5 times 20,000. v
Mr. AVhitley. Yoti say you think it is from 1 to 10. You just
stated a moment ago in your testimony you thought it was 3 or 4
to 1. You have revised your figures considerably in a short time.
Mr. Starnes. Now- those 20,000 members you spoke of, that is an
estimate of the number of all active members?
Mr. Kuhn. Members of the German- American Bund.
Mr! Staknes. And that includes dues-paying and non-dues-paying
members (
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; members.
Mr. Staknes. Yes; because you stated a moment ago that for some
time, or for a period of time, due to financial reasons, that members
failed to pay their dues.
Mr. Kuhn. That is quite true.
Mr. Starnes. So that you are basing this estimate of 20,000 mem-
bers on both the actual dues-paying and non-dues-paying member-
ship ?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. And that is for the whole United States?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. In how many organizations, or units— local units?
Mr. Kuhn. I said around 100.
Mr. Starnes. Can you tell us where they are located?
Mr. Kuhn. Most of them; yes.
Mr. Starnes. All right; tell us.
Mr. Kuhn. Well where shall I begin— the East?
Mr. Starnes. In the East.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, New York. In New York City we have five
units— m .New York City.
Mr. Starnes. How many in New York State «
Mr. Kuhn. About 15.
Mr. Starnes About 15. Where are those located in New York
State, outside of the metropolitan area there in New York City?
3736 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Starting from New York and going up to Pough-
keepsie, Albany, Troy, Schenectady, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo —
that is about all.
Mr. Starnes. How many in New Jersey?
Mr. Kuhn. In New Jersey — four, I think.
Mr. Starnes. Have you any in Massachusetts, or
Mr. Thomas (interposing). Pardon me. Where are they located
in New Jersey?
Mr. Kuhn. That is in Union City, in Newark, in Elizabeth, in
Passaic, in Bergen County — and I forgot, Staten Island in New
York.
Mr. Starnes. Are there any in Massachusetts or the New England
States?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes How many, and where?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I have to count them. There is New Rochelle — ■
that is in New York ; I forgot that, I think. There is New Britain.
Mr. Starnes. That is Connecticut?
Mr. Kuhn. That is Connecticut. There is New Haven; there is
Bridgeport; there is Danbury; Providence, R. I.; and Boston, and
Ridgewood.
Mr. St/rnes. That is in Massachusetts, also?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Then, roughly sneaking, you have seven in the New
Enq-land area; four in Connecticut, one in Rhode Island, and two
in Massachusetts; is that correct?
Mr. Kuhn. Ab^ut correct; yes.
Mr Stapnes. What about the State of Pennsylvania ; do you have
anv there?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; Philadelphia.
Mr. Starnes. How many?
Mr. Kuhn. In Philadelphia ; two. I forrrot one in New Jersey
now — Trenton, N. J.; Philadelphia, Pittsburgh.
Mr. Starnes. Two in Philadelphia?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Have von any in West Virginia?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; Wheeling.
Mr. Starnes. Any in Illinois?
Mr. Kuhn. Chicago — that is all.
Mr. Starnes Any in Michigan ?
Mr. Kuhn. Detroit, Flint — that is all.
Mr. Starnes. Wisconsin?
Mr. Kuhn. Milwaukee. Kenosha, Sheboygan.
Mr. Starnes. Any in California?
Mr. Kuhn. San Diego, Los Angeles, Santa Barbara, Santa Mon-
ica. Oakland, San Francisco, San Bernardino.
Mr. Starnes. You have seven, then, in California?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. In what other western States? Do you have any in
Oregon ?
Mr. Kuhn. There is one ; yes, Portland. And in California there
is Petaluma, and there is the San Pablo Valley.
Mr. Starnes. That gives you nine in California ?
Mr. Kuhn. Nine.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3737
Mr. Starnes. You have more units in California than you have in
any other States, save New York State?
Mr. Kuhn. No; absolutely not.
Mr. Starnes. In what other sections of the country do you have
them '.
Mr. Kuhn. Portland; in Washington, Seattle, and Spokane; in
Utah, Salt Lake City; Nevada, Cheyenne City — no, Carson City;
Texas. San Antonio ; Taylor, Tex.; Austin, Tex. Florida, Miami;
Maryland, Baltimore.
Mr. Stabnes. Have you any in Virginia?
Mr. Kuhn. No — Oh, yes ; Virginia, is in Richmond.
Mr. Starnes. In Richmond?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Any in North Carolina ?
Mr. Kuhn. North Carolina — there is in St. Paul, Minn.; Indian-
apolis, and St. Paul. Then in Cheyenne — that is Wyoming; and in
Omaha. Nebr., and there is a little town I can't recall now, a small
town — it is not the capital there, but a small town. I can't recall it
right now.
Mr. Starnes. In what other States ?
Mr. Kuhn. In Albuquerque, N. Mex. ; Phoenix
Mr. Mason. Have not you a written list of those units?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I have.
Mr. Starnes. Will you supply that for the record?
Mr. Kuhn. I will.*
Mr. Starxes. And give us the States in which the units are lo-
cated, and the towns in which they are located.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, when I interviewed you
previously, you promised to furnish me with such a list, did you not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes: I promised to.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever do that?
Mr. Kuhn. No; because you promised to send me a statement
Mr. Whitley. I sent you a copy of a transcript; that is what you
asked for.
Mr. Kuhn. I asked for that; yes.
Mr. Whitley. And the transcript showed every request I made for
material of that type that 3^011 were to supply.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And I sent you a copy of the transcript at your
request. There were quite a few other items mentioned there which
you also promised to supply, each one identified in the transcript;
but you never sent them.
Mr. Starnes. You have none of those bund organizations in
Tennessee '.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; Memphis.
Mr. Starnes. Do you have any in Arkansas?
Mr. Kuhn. In Arkansas, Kansas City.
Mr. Starnes. What?
Mr. Kuhn. Kansas City.
Mr. Starnes. Kansas City is in Kansas?
Mr. Kuhn. In Kansas, right.
Mr. Starnes. Or in Missouri, which?
Mr. Kuhn. On geography, I am not so very good.
*Note. — List appears in subsequent testimony, q. v.
3738 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. Do you have any in Mississippi ?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, yes.
Mr. Starnes. Where, in Mississippi?
Mr. Kuhn. In St. Louis.
Mr. Starnes. St. Louis — that is in Missouri.
Mr. Kuhn. Missouri — in Mississippi, too.
Mr. Whitley. Nearby St. Louis?
Mr. Kuhn. By St. Louis, yes. Well, I will furnish you a list.
Mr. Starnes. You will furnish that list?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. By States?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. You missed a couple of States.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Do you have any in Alabama?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Where?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know; I can't recall.
Mr. Starnes. All right. Furnish a list by States and give us the
number of units in each State, and the city in which located.
Mr. Kuhn. O. K.
Mr. Whitley. And you now want to revise your estimate of the
number of members of the German-American Bund of "from 75 to
100-000" to approximately "20,000"?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
The Chairman. And what is the total number of sympathizers who
belong to the sympathizers' group?
Mr. Kuhn. I told you I can only estimate roughly about three or
four times so much as the members.
The Chairman. Five times would be 100,000.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, it might be that; it might be more; I don't
know how many svmpathizers we have.
Mr. Whitley. Your previous estimate in that connection
Mr. Kuhn. Was 1 to 10.
Mr. Whitley. Was 1 to 10.
Mr. Kuhn. Well that is figuring on some meetings, for instance,
we have.
The Chairman. At that point, Mr. Whitley, let me ask: You get
the application blanks of all the people who join the sympathizers'
list, do vou not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Then what is there that keeps you from giving
some accurate estimate of them?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know we have them. After the membership
card is made up and the investigation of the new applicant is
through, the membership card is destroyed.
The Chairman. You mean the application card is destroyed?
Mr. Kuhn. The application card is destroyed.
Mr. Starnes. Do not you keep a record of them; do not you have
a membership book, or roll?
Mr. Kuhn. No; you cannot any more.
Mr. Starnes. You mean vou do not any more?
Mr. Kuhn. T^e local unit does that, but not the headquarters;
not anv more. We used to have a card of each member.
iave
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3739
Mr. Starnes. I see; the units keep them, but the headquarters do
not keep them any more?
Mr. Kuhn. No; they can't.
Mr. Thomas. Why can't they?
Mr. Kuhn. I have to protect my members.
Mr. Thomas. That is why you do not keep a record any more (
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely.
Mr. Whitley. They are all American citizens?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. That don't make any difference; if they belong
to the bund, they lose their job, and you know it.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, what percentage of the members of the
bund are persons of German antecedents?
Mr. Kuhn. Well I would say — that has changed too, now, very
much so; but I would say about 40 percent of not German persons.
Mr. Whitley. About 40 percent of the German-American Bund
are not of German antecedents?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Does that same percentage hold true of the sym-
pathizers' group?
Mr. Kuhn. We don't know; because in the sympathizers' group
we don't ask questions.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, do you have the applications for mem-
bers written in German and also in English?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but, lately, we dropped the German ones.
Mr. Whitley. But you have had them up to very recently?
Mr. Kuhn. We have had them up to recently; yes. I even have
here some in German, see.
Mr. Whitley. Will you pass those down to me, please?
You also have applications for sympathizers written both in Ger-
man and in English?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. Are those applications in German and in English
all the same as to form?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. They are?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. I make reference first, Mr. Kuhn, to the member-
ship application written in
Mr. Kuhn. Do you want them in evidence?
Mr. Thomas. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. I make reference, first, to the membership applica-
tion written in English. In the upper right-hand corner of that ap-
plication blank it states, "Voluntary donation, 50 cents, up."
I now make reference to the membership application written in
German. It states "Single voluntary propaganda contribution, 50
cents up."
What is the difference; what is the reason for that difference in
the application blank written in German and the one written in
English ?
Mr. Kuhn. There is not any difference. I don't have the English
one here now. There is not any difference. It means everyone can
make a voluntary contribution, if they like it, but they should not
make it in pennies ; they should not make it in less than 50 cents.
3740 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. In the one instance, though, you seem to call — on
the application written in English, you simply call it "voluntary
donation, 50 cents up"?
Mr. Kuiin. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. On the application written in German you call it
"single voluntary propaganda contribution, 50 cents up" i
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That means that that contribution is for the pur-
pose of carrying on propaganda activities?
Mr. Kuiin. No. He gets the newspaper for that, 3 months, free,
if he sends in at least 50 cents. It is absolutely voluntary; he don't
have to; but if he gives that, he gets the newspaper for 3 months
free.
Mr. Whitley. You call the newspaper propaganda?
Mr. Kuiin. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. I see.
Mr. Kuiin. It does not say that — propaganda; the name "propa-
ganda" is not used. The name "propaganda" is not used either in
German or in English.
Mr. Whitley. Do you have a copy of the application written in
German ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. I only have a photostatic copy here — no; this is
written in English, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Kuiin. That is the white one.
The Chairman. This is the one right here [exhibiting].
Mr. Kuiin. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. How would you translate that portion of the ap-
plication for membership which is written in German, Mr. Kuhn?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, you have me on the exact word; I have to look
up the dictionary ; but the meaning is "for enlightenment."
Mr. Whitley. For enlightenment?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You would not call it "propaganda"; you would call
it "enlightenment" ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, not propaganda ; it is something different.
Mr. Whitley. Other translators might disagree?
Mr. Kuhn. From its German language, we have to get it in
Webster.
The Chairman. Well, is the word different, then— the German
word for propaganda?
Mr. Kuhn. There is some similarity, if you want to say so; but
propaganda is a matter
The Chairman. What do you call "propaganda" in German?
Mr. Kuhn. "Propaganda."
The Chairman. Is that what you call it?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. What do you call "enlightenment"?
Mr. Kuhn. Werbeung.
Mr. Whitley. That is the word that appears on this application.
The Chairman. What is the difference between "propaganda" and
"enlightenment" ?
Mr. Kuhn. Well that is entirely different. One tells you the
facts ; "enlightenment" tells you facts.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 374I
The Chairman. "Propaganda" doesn't?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, not all the time.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, referring again to the membership
application printed in German, on the left-hand margin of the appli-
cation it states "Fill out completely and exactly"?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Now that does not appear on the application for
membership written in English.
Mr. Kuhn. It does not ? I don't know that.
Mr. Whitley. Those are the two applications.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I believe you.
Mr. Whitley. Is there an}7 reason for that?
Mr. Kuhn. Not that I know of.
Mr. Whitley. I believe you stated a moment ago that the two
applications were exactly the same.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, they should be exactly the same.
Mr. Whitley. Referring again or, rather, referring this time to
the English application, Mr. Kuhn, it states, or rather it calls for, two
references. It just has the statement "Two references," and there
are two lines for those references. The application blank written
in German calls for
Mr. Kuhn. One witness in Germany and one witness in America.
Mr. Whitley. This one written in German calls for "a person who
will vouch for you in Germany."
Mr. Kuhn. No ; that does not say that ; it says "a witness which is
in Germany," a German witness.
Mr. Whitley. You are right — and a person, or witness, or refer-
ence in America ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Is there any reason for that difference in the
two applications?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely.
Mr. Whitley. What is the reason ?
Mr. Kuhn. Because if a man was born in Germany, we would like
to know if he has a record there or not.
Mr. Whitley. Well, could not a man filling out this application
written in English have been born in Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, then, we ask him for that, if he is that, and
German-born citizens.
Mr. Whitley. He may be born in France and fill out an English
application, and would not you want his references in France?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; we would get some references in France.
Mr. Whitley. I see.
The Chairman. Well, I do not exactly get it. Does that mean
I if a man joins that he must furnish some witness in Germany?
Mr. Whitley. That is right.
The Chairman. With regard to him ?
Mr. Whitley. If he is a German, he has to be recommended.
Mr. Kuhn. No, Mr. Dies; it means every member has to give
two witnesses. If he is German-born and educated up to a certain
year, up to about 25 years, in Germany, then he has to give a German
witness.
The Chairman. Why do vou need that German witness?
3742 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Well, it happens once in a while — we had it in a court
case where it was brought out that the man was convicted in Ger-
many for debt and was a member of the bund, but we did not know it.
After that was found out, we wrote a letter to his home city and
asked them about things there.
The Chairman. But in the application written in English, you do
not make such a requirement ?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; we don't.
The Chairman. Are not you just as anxious to find out?
Mr. Kuhn. It is because he is born here.
Mr. Thomas. Suppose that man has been convicted in Germany of
larceny, would you allow him to stay in ?
Mr. Kuhn. Absohitely not.
Mr. Thomas. In Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Thomas. Suppose a member of the bund was convicted of larceny
in the United States, wouVl you allow him to stay in the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not.
The Chairman. Do his political connections in Germany have
anything to do with his eligibility for membership?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not.
The Chairman. You do not ask, when you refer back to Germany,
what the man's family's politics have b?en?
Mr. Kuhn. No; and I will be able to furnish you and show you a
lot of letters I wrote. We just want to know that the fellow's record
is clear ; that is all.
The Chairman. Right in that connection : You sav on the sym
path;z°rs' list, vou do not keep a record of that, at all?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Ch\irm*n. You destroy it immediately?
Mr. Kuhn. After the man is checked up. There are always about
50 to 100 in the office, and after the check-up comes in, then the
membership card is made up and the application discarded.
The Chairman. And from then on you keep no record of the man?
Mi\ Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. Whv do you mit on the application : "Please don't
use this space. No. (blank) — ''?
Mr. Kuhn. As I said before, we had a record, they had a record
and Ave kept these, and Ave hope the time is contents; Avhen we can keep
them acrain, so Ave did not change the forms, and we have thousands
of anplVation blanks sHll laying there.
Mr. Whttley. Mr. Kuhn. the fact remains that when a person of
German antecedents, a German, is making application, you get a
recommendation on him from Germany before you take him in?
Mr. Kuiin. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Noav if he is English, or French, or Spanish, or '
Scandinavian, you do not care what his background Avas in his own
countrv; you do not check that?
Mr. Kuhn Mr. Whitley, that is not so.
Mr. Whitley. Well you haA7e the two blanks, which are entirely
different in that respect, and that is a very logical explanation, is
it not, or conclusion?
Mr. Kuhn. As I told you before, vou might be right, the thing
might be right, and we should say "All outside of United States born
ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3743
.should give witnesses in the particular land where they come from."
That would be more correct; but I will be able to prove to you that
we ask even in Scandinavia, if the1 man is a Scandinavian: we ask
even in England, if the man is English. The only purpose we ask
that is because, and that came up in the Dillinger case: Dillinger is
responsible for that, and I will tell you why. After Dillinger was
shot, there came a telegram from London, England — I was in Detroit
at that time; the headquarters was in Detroit, and there came a
telegram that Dillinger was a member of the bund under No. 1841,
see '.
Mr. Whitley. In what chapter was that ; I mean what post of the
bund was he a member of \
Mr. Kuhn. The bund.
Mr. Thomas. What unit; where?
Mr. Kuhn. Thev don't even sav a thin«; in the telegram; thev iust
say a member of the bund and then gave the membership number —
membership No. 1800 and so and so; I don't knowT exactly; 1836, or
1811, I don't know. Anyway, I checked right up, and it was easy to
check up, because I had all the records, but I found the number — this
was all I could do, on account of the telegram; I found that number
was a member in Brooklyn. So at that time we changed the plan ; I
changed the plan at that time.
Mr. Whitley. Making further reference to the application for
membership written in English, Mr. Kuhn, toward the bottom of the
English application it reads as follows : "Only United States citizens
are eligible for office." It does not say anything about membership ;
it says "eligible for office." Is that the only limitation on citizens?
Mr. Kuhn. I told you not, sir. Read the application.
Mr. Whitley. Well, you have not changed your membership forms,
then, to conform to the constitution; is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. What?
Mr. Whitley. I say you have not changed your membership blank
to conform to your constitution. You say, on your membership blank,
that only American citizens are eligible for office.
Mr. Kuhn. For membership in the bund. That is incorrect, then.
Mr. Whitley. You have a blank there, have you?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; I haven't.
Mr. Whitley. I just read from it, "Only United States citizens are
eligible for office." Now, that statement does not appear at all on the
application blank written in German ; there is no such statement of any
kind regarding citizenship on the application blank written in German.
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, yes; it is. The only thing here is this says you
have to give the number of your first citizenship papers, when, and
where, and in which court; then it says, "Give the number of the
second or final — the second, when and where, and in which court."
Mr. Whitley. It does not say anything about being eligible for
office, though, or qualifications for office, on the application blank?
Mr. Kuhn. No, it does not say that, but it says, clearly, you have to
give the number and the court in which you got your citizenship papers.
Mr. Whitley. I see.
Mr. Kuhn. And we even ask when and where you immigrated.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Kuhn, you just referred to the constitution of the
bund.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
3744 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Thomas. Is that the pamphlet entitled '"Purpose and Aims"?
Mr. Kuhn. The constitution is that book down there [indicating].
That is just a pamphlet.
Mr. Thomas. Is the constitution approximately the same as Pur-
pose and Amis?
Mr. Kuhn. I suppose it is taken out of it.
Mr. Thomas. It is taken out of the constitution ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Well there is no date on this Purpose and Aims.
When was that published?
Mr. Kuhn. Well I could not fell you exactly when it was published.
Mr. Thomas. Approximately?
Mr. Kuhn. Quite awhile ago.
Mr. Thomas. How many years ago?
Mr. Kuhn. I would say at least a year, or a year and a half ago.
Mr. Thomas. A year and a half ago?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; I think so. I could not make an exact statement
on that.
Mr. Thomas. Has that constitution been changed very much in the
past 2 years?
Mr. Kuhn. Well there are a few amendments.
Mr. Thomas. There were a few amendments at the last convention?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; not at the last convention.
Mr. Thomas. What was the date of the last convention?
Mr. Kuhn. The 2d, 3d. and 4th of Julv.
Mr. Thomas. 1938?
Mr. Kuhn. 1939.
Mr. Thomas. And what was the date of the convention at which
the constitution was amended?
Mr. Kuhn. The first constitution had to be read twice in 1937.
The first was in Buffalo in 1936. and the second was in New York,
at the Hotel Biltmore, in 1937.
Mr. Thomas. What I am trying to get at is, what was the ap-
proximate date of the convention at which the constitution was
amended.
Mr. Kuhn. In 1937.
Mr. Thomas. It has not been amended since 1937 ?
Mr. Kuhn. In 1932 there were two amendments made.
Mr. Thomas. What were those two amendments?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall exactly
Mr. Thomas. Will you supply a statement of them for the record?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. This membership application is written in English,
and in the lower left-hand corner there is a statement or space for
voluntary donations. The German application in the lower left-
hand corner has the same wording which was referred to a moment
ago, which appears above, and which has been translated as "propa-
ganda'' but which you say means "enlightenment." I simply wanted
to make reference to the difference. Is there any reason for that?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; no particular reason.
The Chairman. The difference is not due to undertaking to have
Germans to contribute their funds for propaganda purposes in the
United States — that is not the difference?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
r.N-AUKHICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3745
Mr. Whitley. Do yon have copies of the sympathizers' blanks?
Mr. Knix. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Written in German and English?
Mr. Knix. Yes. sir. It had been just in German.
Mr. Thomas. At the convention this year, there were some amend-
ments made \
Mr. Kuhx. If you call them amendments. They do not make
use of any German applications at all.
Mr. Thomas. You said a few minutes ago that there were no
amendments made at the convention this year, and now you say
there were amendments made this year: Which is correct?
Mr. Ktjhn. If it was an amendment, I do not call it an amend-
ment.
Mr. Thomas. Was not the constitution amended this year?
Mr. Knix. Not the constitution. Mr. Whitley asked the ques-
tion, and I said they did not use German application blanks. Be-
cause I said they did not use them any more, I did not mean it was
an amendment of the principles of the constitution.
Mr. Whitley. Without going into the details of it, the statement
as to the difference between what appears on the German and Eng-
lish application blanks for membership is also true with reference to
the application blanks for sympathizers, as to the statement with re-
gard to propaganda and voluntary donations. Now, what adminis-
trative record does your organization keep?
Mr. Kuhst. Financial reports and minutes of the national con-
vention.
Mr. Whitley. Including financial reports?
Mr. Kuhx. The whole record of the national convention.
Mr. Whitley. You have records of the routine and business affairs
of the organization or records covering its activities?
Mr. Kuhx. I do not know exactly what you mean. Please explain
what you mean.
Mr. Whitley. Do you have complete financial records of the affairs
of the organization and of allied organizations?
Mr. Kuhx. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. They are kept by whom and where?
Mr. Kuhx. They are kept by me and the national secretary.
Mr. Whitley. You mean that they are in your custody, but you
do not do the actual accounting work?
Mr. Kuhx. No, sir; it is done by the national secretary with help-
ers. So far as certifying the accounts is concerned, the money is
handled entirely in the following way — I have that here.
Mr. Whitley. As to the financial records, do your districts send in
statements once a month \
Mr. Kuhx. I have some special forms. I thought I had them here.
Mr. Whitley. Describe in general the nature of them.
Mr. Kuhx. It is the form that gives the amount of money which
is paid in for certain times.
Mr. Whitley. Does each district or department make a monthly
report as to its activities?
Mr. Kuhx. Yes. sir: every local unit makes a report once a month
of its activities, including how many meetings they have had, or how
many membership meetings they have had, the "way they were at-
tended, and approximately how many people attended.
3746 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA. ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Those records are maintained at national head-
quarters ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Who is the certified public accountant that handles
your books?
Mr. Kuhn. It was Mr. Wegner.
Mr. Whitley. Is he a member of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. What is his address?
Mr. Kuhn. 70 Pine Street. I think.
Mr. Whitley. You, of course.- maintain correspondence records?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; of course.
Mr. Whitley. And minutes?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, you maintain general administrative
records, with the exception of membership lists \
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. All under your custody and control, at national
headquarters, in New York.
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. You stated with reference to the monthly reports
which every local unit sends in, that each local unit makes a report
containing information other than reporting the number of members?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. If that is the case, I asked why it was?
Mr. Kuhn. They do not report the membership at all. They
used to.
Mr. Whitley. Your answer to the last question is that they do not
report rhe members?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. they do not report them.
Mr. Whitley. You have to guess at the number of them ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. I see the amount of money for the local unit.
For some reason, they may rent a house or buy a house. The money
they send in we know. They report the money but they do not report
the number of members.
Mr. Whitley. But they do not report the number of members?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Will you supply for the record a copy of your finan-
cial form on which the local units are required to make their reports?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. With reference to the financial statements, I would
like to find out how many financial statements the units make to the
national organization, and also what financial statements have been
made during the last few years.
Mr. Whitley. I am coming to that in a moment.
Mr. Thomas. For the bund?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Kuhn. As for the membership fees, I have it for the headquar-
ters only.
Mr. Whitley. We will just discuss the bund.
Mr. Kuhn. As to the membership fees and contributions?
Mr. Whitley. What is that membership fee ? You mean the initia-
tion fees?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3747
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. WiiriLEY. What is that?
Mr. Kuhn. $1.
Mr. Whitley. What are the monthly dues paid by each member
to the national headquarters?
Mr. Kuhn. The local unit does that. They are members of the
local units.
Mr. Whitley. What does the member pay the local unit?
Mr. Kuhn. If he is able to pay, he pays the local 75 cents
per month. That is paid to the local unit. The local unit decides
that amount. If a man is out of work, or is working for only a
short time, and not making enough money, then that may be reduced
by one-half or one-third, or they will even let him go without paying
anything so long as he is out of work. That is for the local unit
to decide,
Mr. Whitley. Each member is a member of a local unit?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. What percentage of that is sent to the national
headquarters?
Mr. Kuhn. One-third of the fees that the members pay the local
units goes to the headquarters. For instance, a unit has 100 mem-
bers, and they will pay $25. If they have only 50 members, the local
unit pays $12.50, or one-third of the money that they get in.
Mr. Thomas. You said it was one-third, I believe.
Mr. Kuhn. With 100 members, it would be $25.
Mr. Thomas. Would not one-third be more than that?
Mr. Kuhn. 100 members would pay $75, and one-third of that is
$25.00. When they have only 50 who pay dues, it would be 50 times
75 cents; or $12.50. Then it would be one-third of that,
Mr. Whitley. Under your system, you do not know whether
you are getting all of the money or not ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; there is no check, because these people are
honest,
Mr. Whitley. Do they send it in a lump sum from the districts
that report? Does the report show the amount being sent in?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That is for the maintenance of the headquarters?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. It gives the date of the local unit, the name
of the local unit, the number of the unit, with the amount that
is paid by months.
Mr. Whitley. Those are two sources of income that you have
named, the initiation fee and the monthly dues?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. What are the other sources of income for the
national organization?
Mr. Kuhn. There is a very small income from the exchange of
membership cards. A new member gets a membership card which
is exchanged every two years for a membership book. For that
•exchange they pay 25 cents to headquarters, and any contributions.
Mr. Whitley. Approximately, what is the amount of the annual
voluntary contributions ?
Mr. Kuhn. That differs. It varies. For last year, it was very
high.
Mr. Whitley. What was it last year ?
3748 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. It was high, or from our standpoint it was. For the
last half of 1938 and first half of 1939 together, it was around,
roughly, $18,000.
Mr. Whitley. That came from individual members of the organ-
ization?
Mr. Kuhn. From individuals and friends.
Mr. Whitley. From outsiders?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir ; lots of them.
Mr. Whitley. And coming from other organizations?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. It was entirely from individuals?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. sir; from individuals.
Mr. Whitley. Wore there any other sources of income? Were
these people in the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir ; all in the United States.
Mr. Whitley. There were no contributions from outside the
United States?
Mr. Kuhn. No. sir.
Mr. Whitley. Were they mostly scattered contributions, through-
out the country, or were they mostly from the vicinity of New York?
Mr. Kuhn. They come from all over the country.
Mr. Whitley. And were sent to national headquarters?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. sir.
Mr. Starnes. What was the largest contribution received last year?
Mr. Kuhn. There was one for $500.
Mr. Starnes. Do you recall who that was?
Mr. Kuhn. That was just one.
Mr. Starnes. Who was it?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall that.
Mr. Starnes. What State did he come from ?
Mr. Kuhn. New York.
Mr. Starnes. Would you refresh your recollection about that and
let us know who it was?
Mr. Kuhn. I will try.
Mr. Wuttley. Are there any other sources of income?
Mr. Kuhn. No. sir; not for the bund.
Mr. Whitley. How about the rallies that you sometimes hold, such
as the gathering in Madison Square Garden?
Mr. Kuhn. That was the only exception, the Madison Square
Garden. That was made by headquarters direct. There was some
surplus.
Mr. Whitley. What was the surplus from that meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. It was not very high. It was a little over $1,000.
Thev took in about $11,000, and we got about $1,000. It cost about
$10,000. We took in $11,000.
Mi'. Whitley. Those are the only sources of income for the na-
tional headquarters?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. What about publications? Do you get anything
from that source?
Mr. Kuhn. That is a separate corporation.
Mr. Whitley. You do not get anything from that?
Mr. Kuhn. No. sir.
Mr. Whitley. We will take up the separate corporations later on.
(Thereupon the committee took a recess until 1:15 p. m.)
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3749
AFTER UFA 'ESS
The committee resumed its session at 1 : 15 p. m.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order, and we will
resume (he hearings. Mr. Whitley, you will continue your examina-
tion.
Mr. AVuitley. When we recessed, we were on matters concerning
the bund's finances, and you had explained the manner in which the
national headquarters obtained its funds, and the sources through
which it secured its finances. Now, are there any other sources than
these you have named '.
Mr. Kuhn. Not for the German-American Bund.
Mr. Whitley. How about the sale of uniforms and other equip-
ment I
Mr. Kuhn. The bund does not sell uniforms at all. Each man
buys his own uniform.
Air. Whitley. Does he buy uniforms through any particular
source '.
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir ; he may buy them from different sources. Most
of the shirts are bought from army and navy stores.
Mr. Whitley. The bund has never acted as agent in the sale of
uniforms \
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; not as agent at all. There might come an
order from outside of town, and they would give it attention.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever receive any commission from the sale
of uniforms?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Those sources you have already described in the
record constitute the only sources of income for the bund.?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. As to your local units and districts, through what
channels are they financed?
Mr. Kuhn. They do not have any income at all outside of the
States in the East. The other districts do not have any income.
The district leaders do not have any income.
Mr. Whitley. They keep a percentage of the dues that are paid
in?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; the eastern district does that.
Mr. Whitley. In the Eastern States, what percentage of the dues
do they have?
Mr. Kuhn. Five cents for each member.
Mr. Whitley. That is just to take care of the expense in connec-
tion with the office of the district leader ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Wthitley. The others in the Midwest and the far West dis-
tricts do even have that \
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. The district leader functions without any income
of any kind?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. How about the units, or the various local units
within the districts? What is their source of financing?
Mr. Kuhn. They have the membership dues, two-thirds.
Mr. Whitley. They have two-thirds?
94931— 39— vol. 6 4
3750 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. They have income from entertainments,
social affairs, political affairs, and so forth.
Mr. Whitley. Do they have any other source of income, other than
membership clues ?
Mr. Kuhn. As I say, from social affairs, or something like that.
Mr. Whitley. They have no contributions locally?
Mr. Kuhn. They might have.
Mr. Whitley. Do they have to make quarterly or annual statements
of their financial condition?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You keep that at the headquarters?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You say that as a part of the regular headquarters
financial set-up, there is shown the financial condition of the various
local groups?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mi-. Whitley. We will go on to the matter of financing the various
affiliated organizations or corporations a little later on; but that covers
thp headquarters organizations and the district local units.
Mr Thomas. Would you bring in at that point the amount of re-
ceipts and expenditures of the headquarters?
Mr. Whitley. I might get Mr. Kuhn to state approximately what
that is. As a matter of fact. I did not request him to bring that finan-
cial statement. Can you state for the record the approximate amount
of your annual budget at the national headquarters?
Mr. Kuhn. I cannot recall exactly for two reasons: First, the na-
tional treasurer has the records, and secondly, I may not be able to
make a statement right now because they are in the hands of the district
attornev's office.
Mr. Thomas You could make an estimate of it.
Mr. Kuhn. A very rough one.
Mr. Thomas. I think we should have something on that subiect.
Mr. Whitley. What is the annual operating cost of your office?
Mr. Kuhn. Do you want me to give it weekly or monthly ?
Mr. Thomas. Monthly.
Mr. Kuhn. It covers rent of office. With the wages, including my
own wa.P"es, it run*; between $800 and $1,000 per month.
Mr. Whitley. That is per month?
Mr. Kuhn. Per month. It includes also the cost of running the
headquarters, including two employees.
Mr. Whitley. Does that estimate also cover the usual office ad-
ministrative expenses, postage, telephones, and so forth?
Mr. Kuiin. Yes, sir; rent, telephone, light, and so forth.
Mr. Thomas. Approximately, what are the total receipts per month?
Mr. Kuhn. The total receipts average around $2,000 per month.
Mr. Thomas. What sort of balance do you keep in the bank?
Mr. Kuiin. It aU depends. There is always a balance in the bank.
Mr. Thomas. What is the balance there now ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know.
Mr. Thomas. Approximately what is it?
Mr. Kuiin. It. might be $2,000.
Mr. Thomas. What bank do you use?
Mr. Kuhn. The Manufacturers' Bank.
IN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 375I
Mr. Whitley. All the financial transactions of the organization are
handled through banking institutions?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. What branch is that of the Manufacturers' Bank?
Mr. Kuhn. It is the Manufacturers' Bank of New York City.
Mr. Thomas. What branch?
Mr. Kuhn. The Third Avenue branch.
Mr. Starnes. What United States district attorney's office has those
records \
Mr. Kuhn. It is not the United States. It was the county, Dewey's
office.
Mr. Whitley. I believe yon stated a moment ago — in the first part
of your answer — that yon got approximately $2,000 per month from
dues?
Mr. Kuhn. Roughly; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. If that is one-third of the dues paid from the source
of these local units, that would mean 3,000 dues-paying members, on
the basis of 75 cents per member.
Mr. Kuhn. It might be.
Mr. Thomas. Furthermore, if your expenses are from $800 to $1,000
per month, and your receipts are $2,000 per month, I cannot see how
you could have only $2,000 in the bank.
Mr. Kuhn. I said for rent of office, wages, and so forth. There are
other things. We have lawyers' fees. Then, do we not have pam-
phlets to pay for, and printing?
Mr. Thomas. You have other expenses other than the $800 to $1,000 ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. We have paid over $10,000 for lawyers.
Mr. Thomas. You have paid $10,000 to lawyers?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. What is your law firm.
Mr. Kuhn. We have different lawyers. We have five or six lawyers
now.
Mr. Thomas. All paid from headquarters?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. What are their names?
Mr. Kuhn. I cannot recall the name in Los Angeles. In New York
there is Mr. Collin Dayne.
Mr. Whitley. Does your organization have a number of affiliated
or allied organizations?
Mr. Kuhn. We have different corporations, but they are business
corporations.
Mr. Whitley. Do you consider them affiliated or subsidiary organi-
zations?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. They are absolutely corporations under the
forms of law, and have nothing to do with the bund.
Mr. Whitley. How about the women's unit ?
Mr. Kuhn. That is an auxiliary which we have.
Mr. Whitley. That is a separate group?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. They have to be members.
Mr. Whitley. If they are not members of the bund, they cannot
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). They cannot belong unless they are mem-
bers first.
3752 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. What is the function, what is the purpose of the
women's unit?
Mr. Kuhn. A lot of women get together and do all kinds of social
work and charity work.
Mr. Whitley. And does this group have any separate financing?
Mr. Ktjhn. No — well, we may have some festival, and they use
that money only for emergency purposes, when some family may
need it, or when somebody may be sick, and the money they get
from there is used only for charitable purposes.
Mr. Whitley. Does the women's unit have its own officers?
Mr. Kuhn. We have one woman at the head of it.
Mr. Whitley. They participate principally in charity work?
Mr. Ktjhn. In social work and charity work.
Mr. Whitley. How about the German War Veterans; is that a
subsidiary ?
Mr. Kuhn. That has nothing to do with us.
Mr. Whitley. No connection whatever?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Are any of the members of the bund members of
the German War Veterans?
Mr. Kuhn. Not to my knowledge ; but
Mr. Whitley. It is an entirely separate organization?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely.
Mr. Whitley. And you say it has nothing to do with the bund.
How about the German-American Business League?
Mr. Kuhn. It has its own corporation.
Mr. Whitley. Where is that?
Mr. Kuhn. It is incorporated in the State of New York.
Mr. Whitley. Are you president of that corporation '.
Mr. Kuhn. Right.
Mr. Whitley. What is the purpose of that corporation \
Mr. Kuhn. We unite storekeepers.
Mr. Whitley. Just explain for the record its functions, what its
purpose is.
Mr. Kuhn. These stores pay a membership fee of $3 a year; for
the $3 we are registered in a book to be given out with some savings
stamps and the savings stamps are on the basis of 3 percent. They
offer them and you get 3 percent of the stamps, and if you turn in
that book you get a refund of a dollar and a quarter. The mer-
chants buy these stamps from the business league and pays them
a dollar and a half, and 25 cents is necessary to keep the German-
American Business League going.
Mr. Whitley. You are president of the German-American Busi-
ness League?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Where are the headquarters?
Mi-. Kuhn. In New York; the same office with us.
Mr. Whitley. The same headquarters?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. As 1 understand from your explanation, the mer-
chants pay dues to belong to the league, and then they buy stamps?
Mr. Kuhn. They do not pay dues; they pay $3 a year to be regis-
tered in a special book which the business league puts out.
its
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3753
Mr. Whitley. That is to encourage people to purchase at tho.se
stores '
Mr. Kunx. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. Then they buy stamps from the organization, from
the league \
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Whitley. Which they give the patrons when they purchase in
their places of business?
Mr. Ki nx. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. On the basis of those stamps the customers get a
refund on purchases?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. Approximately how many members, or business con-
cerns, belong to the business league, Mr. Kuhn ?
Mr. Kuhn. In the State of New York, where we are incorporated —
we are incorporated in each State separately, and are separate organi-
zations. In the State of New York we have a membership of 800,
seven or eight hundred, I think; I am not quite sure, but it is around
that figure.
Mr. Whitley. Do the members of that league handle primarily
German products ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; some of them do, yes; but some of them do not;
some have German goods.
Mr. Whitley. Do a majority of them belong to the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; they do not have to belong to the bund to be mem-
bers of the business league.
Mr. Whitley. But they have to be approved by the league before
they become members and get their names listed.
Mr. Kuhn. Of course.
Mr. Whitley. What is the basis for membership in the league?
Mr. Kunx*. They have to be a Christian store.
Mr. Whitley. Any other qualifications?
Mr. Kuhn. No; the usual qualifications, to be on the level with
their business.
Mr. Whitley. Do they have to secure references from Germany
before they can be admitted to the league ?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; not at all.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, you can pass on them, as president,
whether they are eligible or not?
Mr. Kunx. I do not do it personally, but there is a staff which takes
care of that.
Mr. Whitley. Are the finances of the German-American Business
League entirely separate from the finances of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Entirely separate.
Mr. Whitley. Do you receive any salary in connection with your
position as president of that league ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I receive $100 from the German-American Busi-
ness League.
Mr. Starnes. Per month ?
Mr. Kuhn. But that is not extra; that is included in the $300 I
mentioned before. As I said before, I am paid out of the different
resources, and that is one of them.
3754 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. In other words, they pay $100 a month on your
salary?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
The Chairman. I understood him to say that there are 800 members
in New York. What about the rest of the country?
Mr. Whitley. I suppose every State has its own German- American
Business League?
Mr. Kuiin. Yes; but not all States have business leagues.
Mr. Whitley. There is not more than one in any State ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. What is the total membership in all States?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know.
The Chairman. Give us an approximation.
Mr. Kuhn. I cannot give you that, because in the Middle West
the league is administered by the leader.
The Chairman. You say there are 800 members in New York?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; but I am not the president of the business league
in Chicago.
Mr. Whitley. Are you president of any business league other than
the one in New York?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Is not the president usually the district leader, or
one of the local leaders?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but it can be somebody else. But it is mostly the
district leader or the local leader, or some other officer.
Mr. Whitley. What about other places, for instance in Chicago?
Mr. Kuhn. It was not the district leader at all. In New Jersey
Mr. Whitlev. He would be a bund member, however?
Mi-. Kuhn. Yes : but he does not have to be.
Mr. Whitley. What happens to the profits that accrue from the
operation of these 47 German-American business leagues throughout
the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. I did not say we had 47.
Mr. WruLEY. I thought you said you had them in each State.
Mr. Kuhn. Oh. no.
Mr. Whitley. How many are there in the different States?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know.
Mr. Whitley. Approximately.
Mr. Kuhn. There might be 10 or 12.
Mr. Whitlev. What happens to the profits that accrue from the
operations of the league?
Mr. Kuhn. That is to run their own business. They get 25 cents
on each book.
Mr. Whitley. Do you mean that the administration of the league
takes all of the money — every penny that they take in?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. There is no profit?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Do they make any donations to the bund or any
affiliated croups?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Wtitti.ey It is an entirely separate organization ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
its
QN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3755
Mr. Whitley. Do the heads of the other leagues throughout the
country have to make any reports to you as the Leader of the bund or
the head of the league in New York?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. You do not require any report or accounting from
them \
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. There is no such thing as a headquarters group for
the German-American Business League?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. You have a German title for the league, do you not,
Mr. Kuhn — the Deutscher Verband?
Mr. Kuhn. What is that?
Mr. Whitley. Do you not have a German title?
Mr. Kuhn. Surely; it is the German-American Business League;
yes.
Mr. Whitley. You use the German name?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. You use the American name (
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. Look at the book; we have a book that is all in
English.
Mr. Whitley. The German name is the Deutscher Tunschen Ver-
band ?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. The members do not have to be members of the
bund ?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no.
Mr. Whitley. What are some of the allied or affiliated or sub-
sidiary organizations ?
Mr. Kuhn. There are not any affiliated organizations.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, in every instance the head of the
organization is a bund member?
Mr. Kuhn. Not necessarily; he does not have to be. If he is, it is
all right ; but he does not have to be.
Mr. Whitley. In every place the activities of the German-American
Business League and the activities of the bund are very closely con-
nected insofar as cooperation is concerned?
Mr. Kuhn. Cooperation is right.
Mi-. Whitley. And give each other mutual support?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. I think the designation of a subsidiary or allied
group does not necessarily imply a hard and fast connection, and it
is not incorrect in that case.
Hovr about the Prospective Citizens' League '.
Mr. Kuhn. The Prospective Citizens' League belongs to the bund;
that is a small group which has members of the bund. It lias been
kept entirely separate from the bund which, as the name says, pre-
pares for citizenship. We have to have the first papers, and have to
be at least 2 years in the country before they can be a member. Then
at the time they have to have citizenship, and if they do not get
citizenship for some reason they would not be in the organization
any more. They do not have any politics; they are just a social
group.
3756 rX-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA activities
Mr. Whitley. Do they have their own separate officers?
Mr. Kuhn. They have their own separate officers.
Mr. Whitley. Who is the president of that group?
Mr. Kuhn. There is no president : there is just one appointed
Mr. Whitley. They are more or less under the direction of the
bund \
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; to a certain extent.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, it is a group of German
citizens?
Mr. Ktjhn. No: they do not have to be German citizens. Right
now they have a lot of Irish who would like to become citizens.
Mr. Whitley. They have to meet the requirements for member-
ship in the bund, with the one exception, if they are not citizens
Mr. Kuhn. No; they are not members of the bund.
Mr. Whitley. They have to meet the same standards: they have
to be eligible, except that they are not citizens?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Anyone in that group, if he is not a citizen, would
be eligible for membership in the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. It is a group of prospective members of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right,
Mr. Whitley. Just waiting until they become citizens before they
are taken in officially?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right,
Mr. Whitley. How many such members do you have throughout
the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. There are not very many. In every large city there
is one, about a dozen or so.
Mr. Whitley. Just in the larger cities?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitiey. What is the approximate total membership of the
Prospective Citizens' League?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know that,
Mr. Whitley. You do not have any idea ?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; I do not have any idea,
Mr. Whitley. It is a group that comes together, affiliate them-
selves together, pending the time when they can be taken into the
bund?
Mr. Kuhn. They do not have to go into the bund.
Mr. Whitley. Is not that the purpose?
Mr. Kuhn. It is entirely voluntary.
Mr. Whitley. But the purpose is to encourage them to go in?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. The purpose is to help them to get
citizenship. We have English teachers, and classes in American
history.
Mr. Whitley. Do you have any classes in German history?
Mr. Kuhn. Not at all. Some of them are Irish.
Mr. Whitley. Do they attend the meetings of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. If they want to they can, the open meetings, not the
membership meetings.
Mr. Whitley. What percentage of the members of the league, after
securing their citizenship, become members of the bund?
ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3757
Mr. Rutin. It is hard to say. After they are citizens, we have (<>
make out new applications, so I cannot say that.
The Chairman. You have had considerable experience with in-
formers who become members of the bund, who are informers? A
certain percentage of your membership are placed in there to get
information, and act as spies, you might call it?
Mr. Kuhn. No; we do not leave any spies.
The Chairman. You have never had any of those in your organi-
zation '.
Mr. Kuhn. Outside?
The Chairman. I am talking about the German-American bund.
Have you had occasion to discover people in there solely to get
information {
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. You never had any of that to contend with?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Are there any other affiliated or associated groups,
Mr. Kuhn \
Mr. Kuhn. There are different corporations, as I said before.
Mr. Whitley. What about the O. D., or the Orderly Division?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but that is for members only.
Mr. Whitley. When did you change the name of that group from
storm troopers to Orderly Division?
Mr. Kuhn. Never changed that name.
Mr. Whitley. In the past were they not known as storm troopers?
Mr. Kuhn. Never known as storm troopers.
Mr. Whitley. Never officially designated as such by the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. I founded the first one in Detroit.
Mr. Whitley. Always known as the Orderly Division?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. They are bund members?
Mr. Kuhn. They have to be.
Mr. Whitley. Is it a separate organization '.
Mr. Kuhn. No ; it is not.
Mr. Whitley. They do not have their own groups or meetings,
just for O. D. members?
Mr. Kuhn. They might meet once in a while alone, socially.
The Chairman. They are to maintain order at the meetings?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. That was modeled very much after what the Nazi
Party had in Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. Not in them.
The Chairman. You know they did have storm troopers in the
beginning to keep order.
Mr. Kuhn. Not so long as I was in the organization.
The Chairman. They have the Orderly Division \
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
The Chairman. For the purpose of keeping order.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is where you got the idea ?
Mr. Kuhn. Where!1
The Chairman. From the Orderly Division in Germany \
3758 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. There is not any Orderly Division in this league in
New York.
The Chairman. I thought you said in the beginning the Nazi
Party itself had an Orderly Division.
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know anything about that at all; I was not a
member there when I was there more than a year ago.
The Chairman. You have been back since, have you not I
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; twice.
The Chairman. Did you have an opportunity to see whether they
have an Orderly Division \
Mr. Kuhn. No; they have storm troopers, the S. A. and S. S.
The Chairman. They are to keep order at the meetings; is not that
true?
Mr. Kuhn. I suppose they are: I never was in a meeting.
Mr. Whitley. How about the German-American Settlement
League ? i
Mr. Kuhn. The German-American Settlement League is an abso-
lutely d fferent organization, which owns one camp.
Mr. Whitley. Where is that organization %
Mr. Kuhn. It is in Brooklyn.
Mr. Wthitley. What is its connection, if any, with the bund \
Mr. Kuhn. The members of the Settlement League can only be
bund members.
Mr. Wthitley. Only bund members can be members of the Settle-
ment League?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. Do they have separate officers?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Who is the head of that organization ?
Mr. Kuhn. Right now a new president has been put in ; Mr. Miller
is the president.
Mr. Whitley. What is his first name (
Mr. Kuhn. Earnest — Earnest Miller.
Mr. Whitley. Do you have any official position in that organiza-
tion ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I am a director.
Mr. Whitley. Is it a corporation?
Mr. Kuhn. It is a corporation, incorporated in the State of New
York.
Mr. Wthitley. How many members does it have, Mr. Kuhn ?
Mr. Kuhn. Around 200.*
Mr. Whitley. Are they all more or less located in and around New
York; that is, the members?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; most of them are in Brooklyn.
Mr. Whitley. What is the purpose of that organization?
Mr. Kuhn. Just to own a camp.
Mr. Whitley. Where is that camp located ?
Mr. Kuhn. At Yaphank.
Mr. AVhitley. They own Camp Siegfried?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Do they own any other camps?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. You finance that camp entirely?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3759
Mr. Whitley. Do they receive any money from the bund?
Mr, Kuiin. Once in a while there is a loan, if we are short of cash.
Mr. Whitley. It is a separate organization set up to own and
operate Camp Siegfried?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Are any of the other camps operated in that man-
ner?
Mr. Kuhn. No; they are all different organizations, different cor-
porations.
Mr. Thomas. All operated in the same way?
Mr. Kuhn. No; Camp Siegfried is operated as a membership cor-
poration. The other ones are business corporations.
Mr. Whitley. That is the only one that is a membership cor-
poration?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And the only exchange of finances is that sometimes
you will loan them a little money.
Mi". Kuhn. Very seldom.
Mr. Whitley. Do they ever give the bund any money or any
affiliated group of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. How about the German-American Bund Auxiliary?
Mr. Kuhn. That is the I. N. C. That is the corporation which
holds a camp in New Jersey.
Mr. Whitley. Is it a New York corporation?
Mr. Kuhn. No; that is a New Jersey corporation.
Mr. Whitley. Is it a membership corporation?
Mr. Kuhn. A business corporation.
Mr. Whitley. A strictly business corporation?
Mr. Kuhn. With seven members.
Mr. Whitley. Who is the head of that?
Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Kapproth.
Mr. Whitley. What is his first name ?
Mr. Kuhn. August.
Mr. Whitley. What is his official position with the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. He is the local unit leader.
Mr. Whitley. At what place in New Jersey ?
Mr. Kuhn. Hudson County.
Mr. Whitley. He is the head of the German-American Auxiliary?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; the president of it.
Mr. Whitley. Which owns and operates
Mr. Kuhn. Camp Andover, N. J.
Mr. Whitley. Is there any exchange of finances there?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. He operates entirely independently?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely.
Mr. Whitley. Does he have to make any report to the bund on
the operation of that camp, or on the finances?
Mr. Kuhn. No; he does not make any reports at all. He only
makes reports to the director's meetings.
Mr. Whitley. They do not report what they are doing, or what
they plan to do, or anything of that kind?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Thomas. You are rather familiar with the operation of it?
3760 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. What does their business consist of?
Mr. Kuhn. To develop the camp, which consists of about 290 acres.
Mr. Tn: mas. What does their income come from?
Mr. Kuhn. It conies first from entrance fees, for some service when
something1 special is on, and for parking.
Mr. Thomas. You do not have entrance fees, do you?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; on big days, such as the Fourth of July, or other
davs they celebrate.
Mr. Thomas. What else?
Mr. Kuhn. Then there is the restaurant, for which the organization
has to pay rent.
Mr. Thomas. The greatest part of the income is from the restaurant?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but they have to pay rent.
Mr. Thomas. But is not the largest part of the income of that cam})
from the restaurant ?
Mr. Kuhn. Of course.
Mr. Thomas. A very large percentage of it. So it is possible that
if you did not get your liquor license it would put the camp out of
business?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; it would not,
Mr. Thomas. They received $41,000 last year from the restaurant?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Therefore, that is a pretty large part of the receipts.
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Thomas. If you did not get the $41,000
Mr. Kuhn. We would get money somewhere else.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, as I recall, you told me at the time of our
interview in New York that the different corporations which owned
and operated camps made a report to you, I believe, at the opening of
the camo for the season, or at the end of it, or both.
Mr. Kuhn. That is voluntarily; the}7 do not have to do that.
Mr. AViiitley. Did you not also tell me that you had the power of
veto, insofar as the selection of officers and directors for those cor-
porations is concerned ?
Mr. Kuhn. Not of the corporations; I have, so far as the officers of
the bund are concerned. We have in our contract set-up that Ave have
to be members of the bund, the officers. If a man is not a member of
the bund, he cannot be a director of the cam]).
Mr. Whitley. And being a member of the bund, for practical
purposes, means that he takes orders from you?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Even if he is president of the corporation running
Camp Nordland?
Mr. Kuhn. Insofar as
Mi-. Whitley. If he did not operate that camp as you wanted it
operated, you could throw him out of the bund, which would auto-
matically eliminate him as an officer of the corporation?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I cannot throw him out of the bund without show-
ing cause.
Mr. AViiitley. If you did not like the w7ay he was running the
camp you would not have any trouble in getting rid of him?
Mr. Kuhn. If there is cause
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3761
Mr. Whitley. You have the last say on anything; you do not give
a man a trial before you throw him out, do you?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely. Each one has a right to defend himself.
Mr. Whitley. So you contend that these camps are separate cor-
porations and you have nothing to do with them; you do not have
any check on them?
Mr. Ktmx. If they voluntarily report to me that is up to them.
Mr. Whitley. Do most of them see fit to voluntarily report to
you ?
Mr. Kuhx. Most of them do.
Mr. Whitley. Have any of them ever failed to report to you on
important matters of policy?
Mr. Kuiix. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. There was nothing you could do about it; you
had to take it. There are two other organizations, Mr. Kuhn, I
would like to ask you about. There is the German Consumers'
Association, a Xew York corporation.
Mr. Kuiix. That is the German-American Business League; that
0f is the same thing.
Mr. Whitley. Are those two names used interchangeably?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. Which is the correct name?
Mr. Kuhn. The German- American Business League.
Mr. Whitley. Is the A. V. Publishing Co. a New York corpo-
ration?
Mr. Kuiix. Yes.
Mr. "\\ hitley. Who is the head of that corporation?
Mr. Kuhn. I am the president.
Mr. Whitley. What is the purpose of that corporation?
Mr. Kuiix. The printing of the newspaper.
Mr. Whitley. Is that a weekly newspaper?
Mr. Kuiix. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And the name of it is what?
Mr. Kuhn. The Deutscher WTeckruf, or the Free American.
Mr. Starnes. Published in the German language?
Mr. Kuiix. Three-quarters in English and one-quarter in German.
Mr. Whitley. Does that same corporation publish a paper in Chi-
cago, in Philadelphia, and in Los Angeles?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Those are separate publishing companies?
Mr. Kuhx. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. They are incorporated in the States in which they
operate ?
Mr. Kuhx. In the States in which they publish a paper.
Mr. Starxes. Do you have any interest in them?
Mr. Kuhx. Nonprofit.
Mr. Starxes. All of them nonprofit?
Mr. Kuiix. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Do they report to you, or do you have anything to
do with their editorial policies?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, I have; but I am not a director or officer of the
corporation.
3762 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. You do have something to say, in a general, directive
sense with reference to the editorial policies of these papers, and the
news policies?
Mr. Kuhn. I can write an article, if I please.
Mr. Starves. Who are the editors of the other papers?
Mr. Kuhn. The editors in Los Angeles — and there is a paper in
Chicago.
Mr. Starnes. Are. they members of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Of course.
Mr. Starnes Sure, and you are the head of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Sure.
Mr. Starnes. Then they are responsible to you. and you do have
direction?
Mr. Kuhn. As bund members.
Mr. Whitley. You are the president of the A. V. Corporation in
New York?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Who is the editor of that paper?
Mr. Kuhn. Wilhelm Kunze.
Mr. Whitley. What is the circulation of that paper — the weekly
circulation?
Mr. Kuhn. I could not recall that.
Mr. STArNES. Mr. Kunze would know, would he not?
Mr. Kuhn. He might.
Mr. Starnes. What officer in the A. V. Publishing Co. would know
that ?
Mr. Kuhn. I suppose the treasurer would.
Mr. Starnes. Who is the treasurer?
The Chairman. Do you mean to tell me you do not know what the
weekly circulation of that paper is?
Mr. Kuhn. I really do not, but you can find that out, because in
the State of New York you have to report that.
The Chairman. There is no question about that?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not bother about it: I cannot bother about all
of the little details.
Mr. Whitley. You are concerned more with the policies?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. What is the selling price of that paper?
Mr. Kuhn. Five cents the copy, or $3 a year.
Mr. Starnes. You merely direct the policies of these papers?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. You are responsible for the policies of all of them?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; that is right.
Mr. Whitley. Do all of the members of the bund subscribe to the
Deutscher Weckruf ?
Mr. Kuhn. Not unless they want to.
Mr. Whitley. You could not sav whether the circulation weekly is
approximately 1,200 or 12,000?
Mr. Kuhn.' I could say that it is over 12,000; it might be 30,000.
Mr. Whitley. What is the name of the corporation that owns and
publishes the Weckruf in Philadelphia?
Mi-. Kuhn. Tt is the Philadelphia Weckruf Corporation.
Mr. Whitley. And the name of the paper there is the same as it
is in New York?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3763
Mr. Kuiin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Who is the head of that corporation?
Mr. Kuhn. That is the local unit leader in Philadelphia.
Mr. Whitley. What is his name?
Mr. Kuiin. Mr. Martin.
Mr. Whitley. What is his first name?
Mr. Kuhn. Henry, I believe.
Mr. Whitley. And is that paper operated in the same manner as
the A. V. Publishing Co. operates?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Entirely separate?
Mr. Kuiin. Entirely separate.
Mr. Whitley. Are yon a member of the board of directors of any
of those corporations?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Are yon a member of the board of directors of the
camp corporations?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes: the Nordland.
Mr. Whitley. Is that the only one of which you belong to the
board of directors?
Mr. Kuiin. I am a director of the bund of New Jersey.
Mr. Whitley. And you do not know what the circulation of the
Philadelphia paper is?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. What is the name of the corporation that publishes
the Chicago paper?
Mr. Kuhn. Gratonia Publishing Corporation.
Mr. Whitley. Who is the head of that corporation?
Mr. Kuhn. George Froboese, the Middle West State leader.
Mr. Whitley. He is your midwestern leader?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You are not a member of the board of directors,
and do not hold any official position?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. And the Los Angeles paper: what is the name of
the corporation that operates that?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know; I don't recall.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know who is the head of the corporation?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; Herman Schwinn.
Mr. Whitley. He is your far- western leader?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Do these corporations that publish your papers
have to make any accounting or any report to you ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. None whatever?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Do they make such an accounting?
Mr. Kuhn. Outside of the New York corporations, because I am
the president there.
Mr. Whitley. They do not make any accounting whatever?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Do you finance them to any extent, or in any
manner ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
3764 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. They are entirely independent and separate?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Have you a copy of one of those papers with you?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir: I have not.
Mr. Thomas. What kind of news do these papers publish?
Mr. Kuhn. Well. American politics, and news from all over the
world, and some articles about social — it is divided into these dif-
ferent things.
Mr. Thomas. Is it mostly local news or foreign news?
Mr. Kuhn. The most is local ; I mean the United States. It is
not only New York. By local. I mean the United States.
Mr. Thomas. You mean that news has to do with bund activities?
Mr. Kuhn. With politics in the United States. There is half a
page which is for the bund activities especially.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, are copies of these papers published in
the various cities sent to Germany, or are they sent to any indi-
viduals or organizations in Germany or in Canada?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; only if somebody subscribes for them. Of course,
we have subscriptions coining from China; we have some all over
tho world — very few of them.
Mr. Whitley. Do you send any of them to Canada?
Mr. Kuhn. Some of them go to Canada ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Are they sent gratis to any individuals or groups
in this country?
Mr. Kuhn." No.
Mr. Whitley. Only to subscribers?
Mr. Kuhn. Wait a minute. In this country, once in a while, if
somebody applies for them or wants to know something about the
organization, they send them a few copies free: but after two or
three copies that they receive, they have to pay for them.
Mr. Whitley. With reference to your statement a moment ago,
Mr. Kuhn, that you were a director of Camp Nordland and Camp
Siegfried, but not connected with any of the other camps in any
official capacity, I read from page 38 of the transcript of my inter-
view with you in New York on March 27, 1939:
Question. Are there <"ny other, as far as the national corporation is con-
cerned? I understand that each camp is a separate corporation.
Mr. Kuhn. A separate corporation, and I am a director of each camp.
Mr. Kuhn. I used to be.
Mr. Whitlev. You u^ed to be? In other words, you have just
recently changed that affiliation?
Mr. Kuhn. About May.
Mr. Whitley. That was subsequent to this interview that I had
with you?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mi-. Whitley. Was there any reason for that change?
Mi-. Kuhn. No; because it is not logical that I keep track of
every cam]).
Mr. Thomas. Is it not true that the old bund and the officials of
the bund, in the last few months of this year, have changed their
policies drastically in various matters?
Mr. Kuhn. No: it is not any policy at all. It. is not a case of
policy.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3765
Mr. Thomas. The activities at camps have changed. Take Nord-
land, for instance. The account of the activities of the first meeting
at Nordland is very different from the account of the last meeting
in Nordland.
Mr. Kuhn. I suppose it is ; but you know why.
Mr. Thomas. In other words, you have pulled in your horns quite
a bit ?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; we did not pull in anything, but we have to com-
ply with the law.
Mr. Thomas. But there was not any change of the law in New
Jersey except as regards uniforms; and you changed a great many
other activities there.
Mr. Kuhn. No. The law says anything bearing the swastika.
Mr. Thomas. So there were two changes; one was the uniform
and the other was the use of the swastika ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. But is it not true that there were other changes?
Do you mean to say that the recent meetings are just the same as
they were?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, with what organizations, groups, or
individuals does your organization cooperate? For instance, do you
cooperate with any Italian groups or any Hungarian groups?
Mr. Kuhn. Why, we cooperate with everybody which — to a cer-
tain extent we cooperate with everybody which has the same pur-
poses and aims that we have.
Mr. Whitley. Will you name some of those groups or individuals
with whom you have cooperated to any degree or to any extent ?
Mr. Kuhn. For instance, we have had with us as guests once in
a while the Italians out there. We had the White Front out there,
and we had the Christian Front out there.
Mr. Whitley. Where did you have the Christian Front ?
Mr. Kuhn. For instance, at our meeting in the Bronx. We have
the Social Justice Society.
Mr. Whitley. Do you officially invite them to participate in these
meetings or demonstrations ?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; I don't invite nobody.
Mr. Starnes. Was that at the Madison Square Garden that all these
groups cooperated with you?
Mr. Kuhn. They were invited for that particular meeting.
Mr. Whitley. Will you name for the record the groups that were
invited for that particular occasion, or which have been invited at
any time, to participate in any functions or activities with the bund ?
The Chairman. Well, he was naming them. He had gotten down
to Social Justice, I think.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, now, I didn't talk about the Madison Square
Garden.
The Chairman. But you did say that the Social Justice League
Mr. Kuhn. Society.
The Chairman. That you cooperated with them?
Mr. Kuhn. They came into our meeting.
The Chairman. Now, who else besides the Social Justice Society?
How about the Silver Shirts? Did you cooperate with them?
94931—39 — vol. 6 5
3766 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kdhn. I have never cooperated with the Silver Shirts at all.
The Chairman. You never did have meetings with William Dudley
Pelley?
Mr. Kuhn. I met him once.
The Chairman. That was the only time you met him?
Mr. Kuhn. That was the only time I met him.
Mr. Starnes. Where was that?
Mr. Kuhn. In Los Angeles.
Mr. Starnes. When?
Mr. Kuhn. That was in the late fall of 1936.
The Chairman. When was .the last time you talked to him over
the long-distance telephone?
Mr. Kuhn. I never talked to him over the long-distance telephone
at all.
The Chairman. When was the last time you have seen him?
Mr. Kuhn. The last time was in November. I wrote him a letter
inviting him to Madison Square Garden.
The Chairman. Have there been any joint meetings between you
and him at any time ?
Mr. Kuhn. Never.
Mr. Starnes. Did he come in response to your invitation?
Mr. Kuhn. He did not. He did not even answer the letter.
Mr. Whitley. Was George Deatherage there?
Mr. Kuhn. I could not say. I didn't even talk to him.
The Chairman. Outside of Social Justice, keep on down the list
and give us the ones that you say you have cooperated with.
Mr. Kuhn. By cooperating I mean that we go to their meetings
and they come to our meetings. They get invitations to our meetings.
The Chairman. You named Social Justice. What are some of the
rest of them ?
Mr. Kuhn. The Christian Front, Christian Mobilizer, and
Christian Crusaders.
The Chairman. The Ku Klux?
Mr. Kuhn. No. You know — [Laughter.]
The Chairman. All right ; go ahead.
Mr. Whitley. What were the circumstances of your meeting with
Mr. Pelley in Los Angeles, Mr. Kuhn?
Mr. Kuhn. There wasn't any meeting. I was just in Los Angeles
and I called on him.
Mr. Whitley. You called on him in his office?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; in his office.
Mr. Whttley. You walked into his office and gave the Nazi salute
and said, "Heil Hitler"?
Mr. Kuhn. That is ridiculous. We are not childish.
Mr. Whitley. Well, maybe Mr. Pelley has a different version of
it, then.
Mr. Kuhn. Well. I don't care what he had.
Mr. Whitley. Did you propose to him a coalition or a union of
some kind between the Silver Shirts and the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Never.
Mr. Whitley. You did not propose any such thing, but you did
seek him out and go and visit him?
Mr. Kuhn. I wont down there to see him. Of course, I saw him.
I had a telephone call to him first and made an appointment and I
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3767
talked to him for 15 minutes ; that is all ; and in 15 minutes you can't
talk much about these things, but in most cases when you talk to a
man for 15 minutes you know what he is.
Mr. Starnes. For what purpose was the meeting, if not to form
an alliance?
Mr. Kuhn. Just as, for instance, if I would see Father Coughlin,
if I desired. I like to see very famous men.
Mr. Starnes. Do you consider Mr. Pelley a famous man?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, he is in the newspapers all the time.
Mr. Starnes. And you called him and talked to him. Did you talk
to him about the aims and purpose of his organization?
Mr. Kuhn. No; absolutely not.
Mr. Starnes. Did you tell him the purposes and aims of your
organization ?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not.
Mr. Starnes. How far did you go with the proposal ?
Mr. Kuhn. I didn't go at all. I talked to him 15 minutes. If I
wanted something of you, I would tell you what I want, and I would
see what you are in 15 minutes. Is not that the conclusion?
Mr. Starnes. You saw what he was in that time ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And you walked out?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And you did not make any proposal except to invite
him to Madison Square Garden ?
Air. Kuhn. That is right. I did not invite him.
Mr. Starnes. Who invited him?
Mr. Kuhn. The secretary.
Mr. Whitley. He was invited to speak?
Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so.
Mr. Starnes. Mr. Pelley was invited to speak at the meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. I think he was; I don't know. You have the letter
there.
Mr. Whitley. Who else was invited to speak at that meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. General Moseley was invited.
Mr. Whitley. Was Father Coughlin invited?
Mr. Kuhn. The father was invited.
Mr. Whitley. To make a speech at Madison Square Garden?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely.
Mr. Whitley. And who else was invited ?
Mr. Kuhn. I can't give you the exact list.
Mr. Whitley. How about Mr. James True; was he invited?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; he was invited.
Mr. Whitley. To speak, or just as an honored guest?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't think so, because some of them are not such
very good speakers.
Mr. Thomas. Who accepted all these invitations?
Mr. Kuhn. Nobody that I know of.
Mr. Whitley. Was Mr. Starenberg invited?
Mr. Kuhn. Who is that ? I neverheard of him.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Starenberg is connected with the National
American Association in New York.
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know that name. I don't think so. I can give
you the complete list. I mean, the men who took care of that part
can give you a complete list.
3768 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. How about Mr. James Edward Smythe ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Have you had any relations or associations with
Mr. Smythe?
Mr. Kuhn. I should say not,
Mr. Starnes. What was your purpose in getting in touch with
Mr. Pelley? You had a purpose in view, of course. Tell us what
it was.
Mr. Kuhn. No; there wasn't any purpose at all. I was down in
Los Angeles, and I heard he was there, and I wanted to meet the
man. It is absolutely my privilege to meet whom I choose to meet.
The Chairman. In the United States.
Mr. Starnes. In the United States it is your privilege to do that,
of course.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I mean — we are only talking about the United
States.
Mr. Starnes. Wasn't there some idea
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). No; there wasn't any idea; it was just-
to meet the man.
Mr. Starnes. Well, why was it when you saw him you did not
want any more to do with him?
Mi. Kuhn. Well, there are people that you like to associate with,
and there are people that you don't like to associate with.
Mr. Starnes. He headed one organization and you headed another
organization ?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, what is wrong with that ?
Mr. Starnes. There was no purpose at all, then, in your meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. No. If the Silver Shirts would have a good organiza-
tion, we might join them.
Mr. Thomas. You do not think they are a good organization?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't say they are not good. I don't care for them
at all.
Mr. Mason. I gather from your remarks, Mr. Kuhn, that in your
15 minutes' interview with Mr. Pelley you decided that it was the
end; that you did not care for any more contact with him?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Mason. Practically?
Mr. Kuhn. No personal contact at all.
Mr. Mason. And in those 15 minutes you learned at least that he
could not teach you any tricks of the trade, shall we say?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I am sorry I can't tell you what you mean by
"tricks of the trade." It is an expression which I don't know what
you mean by it.
Mr. Mason. Well, I mean just this; that you and your organization
and Mr. Pelley and his organization, as I gather from the testimony
that we have here, are money -making rackets based upon the credulity
of the American people.
Mr. Kuhn. Who said that?
Mr. Mason. I am interpreting the testimony that we have listened
to today and on other days about your organization and these other
organizations. This is my interpretation. And that this credulity is
played upon because of nationalistic ties, racial ties, and it is fed upon
hatred of other groups, particularly the Jews.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3769
Mr. Kuhn. You are referring now to the bund or to the Silver
Shirts?
Mr. Mason. I am referring to both.
Mr. Kuhn. Then you are not correct.
Mr. Mason. Because in your application you state definitely that
they cannot have any Jewish blood.
Mr. Kuhn. Of course I said that. If you belong to the Knights of
Columbus, you have to be a Catholic; and I look for my own company.
Mr. Mason. Yes; but if I belong to the Knights of Columbus and
am a Catholic, I can be of any blood as long as I am of the Catholic
faith.
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mr. Mason. And the Knights of Columbus do not preach religious
hatred.
Mr. Kuhn. We do not either.
Mr. Mason. And hatred of other religions.
Mr. Kuhn. We never do.
Mr. Mason. Hatred of Jews, it seems to me, is one of the cardinal
principles of your organization, as well as the Silver Shirts.
Mr. Kuhn. That is not true. All we want is for the Jews to let us
alone.
Mr. Mason. I am making my own interpretation of the evidence that
has been presented.
Mr. Starnes. I want to second what you have said. I have hereto-
fore characterized it merely as a racket.
Mr. Mason. That is all it is.
Mr. Kuhn. Who is a racket?
Mr. Starnes. What is the background of your movement?
Mr. Kuhn. Do you call us a racket? You will have to go to the
United States Court of Appeals before you call us a racket.
Mr. Starnes. You answer the question. I do not have to answer
your question.
Mr. Kuhn. You accuse me of being a racketeer?
Mr. Starnes. I want to know if you are not a member of the
Friends of New Germany.
Mr. Kuhn. I was.
Mr. Starnes. When did you join that organization?
Mr. Kuhn. In 1934, I think.
Mr. Starnes. Is there any such organization in existence in this
country now?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. What succeeded that organization in carrying out its
purposes in this country?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, if you want — the bund did not succeed it. The
bund was a new organization formed.
Mr. Starnes. Were you ever a member of the German Bund in this
country ?
Mr. Kuhn. The German-American Bund ; sure.
Mr. Starnes. No ; I mean the German Bund.
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know Fritz Gissibl?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Peter Gissibl ?
3770 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; I know them.
Mr. Starnes. They were members of the German Bund, were they
not?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; not to my knowledge.
Mr. Starves. And Fritz Grissibl returned to Germany, did he not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. He is there now ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Peter Grissibl is in this country, and he is a member
of your German-American Bund?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; he is not.
Mr. Starnes. Has he ever been a member of it ?
Mr. Kuhn. He was.
Mr. Starnes. He was a leader?
Mr. Kuhn. In Chicago — the local unit leader ; he was ; yes.
Mr. Starnes. At one time the German Bund was composed of both
German citizens and German-American citizens; is not that true?
Mr. Kuhn. The German-American Bund; I don't have anything
to do with the German Bund. I don't even know the purposes and
aims of the German Bund.
Mr. Starnes. Well, what are the aims of the German-American
Bund?
Mr. Kuhn. To unite the German-American element, in the first
place.
The Chairman. What do you want to unite them for ?
Mr. Starnes. Just a minute. What are the other purposes?
Mr. Kuhn. To fight the Communists in this country.
Mr. Starnes. What next ?
Mr. Kuhn. To give the German element a political background.
Mr. Starnes. What else ?
Mr. Kuhn. That is about all.
Mr. Starnes. In other words, then, you say that it is a political
movement?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mr. Starnes. Is it your purpose to establish a separate political
party ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; if we are strong enough.
Mr. Starnes. At the present time ?
Mr. Kuhn. At the present time we pick our persons where we like.
We are not Democrats or Republicans. We pick the best men.
Mr. Starnes. But you do hope in time to establish a party?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, if it winds up like that; yes.
Mr. Starnes. What is your party program ? Is that the only pro-
gram you have — to unite the German-American element
Mr. Kuhn. Sure.
Mr. Starnes. And to fight the Communists and to build up a
political party?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. That is your purpose?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. How do you expect to accomplish your purposes?
Through what organizations or through what routes do you travel
to accomplish your purposes?
Mr. Kuhn. They are our own.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3771
Mr. Starnes. Do you attempt to organize and seize control of the
trade-union movements in this country?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not.
Mr. Starnes. Do you attempt to penetrate into our schools and
colleges ?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not.
Mr. Starnes. You do have a German movement in this country?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stai:nes. What is the purpose of that ?
Mr. Kuhn. To educate them.
Mr. Starnes. How do you expect to educate them? Are you not
satisfied with the education that we give them?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely.
Mr. Starnes. How do you expect to educate American children
differently from the way in which we are educating them at the
present time?
Mr. Kuhn. Because our members are all poor people, people of
the working class, and we take the children out.
Mr. Starnes. Don't we have free public schools in this country?
Mr. Kuhn. We do not have our own schools.
Mr. Starnes. "Our"? Aren't you American citizens?
Mr. Kuhn. Of course. They attend our schools, if you call them
"our schools," especially in New York City. If you call them "our
schools," I do not.
Mr. Starnes. You do not call the schools in New York City your
schools ?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not.
Mr. Starnes. You do not conduct any schools?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. You have summer camps?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. You have a youth movement ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. In which you train boys and girls?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Air. Starnes. And in which you teach them and instruct them ?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; we take them out of the streets because their par-
ents cannot afford to take them out, and we give them a cheap place
where they can enjoy the summer.
Mr. Starnes. What do you give them in the way of instruction
while they are out there?
Mr. Kuhn. We let them swim; we have a beach out there. We
give them sport; we give them training; we give them singing, and
all that kind of sport. Why don't you come out? We invite you.
Mr. Starnes. Do j^ou give them any instruction in language?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. We give them English and we give
them German.
Mr. Starnes. You teach them the German language, don't you?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. And you give them governmental instruction, don't
you?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. What do you give them, then?
Mr. Kuhn. Just the German language.
3772 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. I notice in your constitution, among the aims and
purposes of the German-American Bund, No. 4 reads :
•
To defend with all lawful means at our disposal the good name and honor of
our mother country (Germany) against base defamation, willful and poisonous
lies, and purposeful malice emanating from any ill-wishing, jealous, avaricious,
or ignorant source whatsoever, be it race, people, tribe, clan, nation, associa-
tion, or individual ; against propaganda spread by print, script, mouth, openly,
or covertly, through books, magazines, newspapers, leaflets, or merely cowardly
rumors.
Now, why is it necessary-
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). Why don't you talk about — you are
talking about youngsters. That is our organization.
Mr. Starnes. Answer my question. I want to know why it is
necessary for you to band together in this country for the purpose
of defending by all lawful means at your disposal the good name and
honor of your mother country, Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. "By all lawful means." Isn't that enough?
Mr. Starnes. No ; I want to know why it is that you find it neces-
sary to have American citizens to defend Germany.
Mr. Kuhn. Because every time you open a paper you find lies
about Germany. My interest is to have friendship outside, just as
yours is if you are Irish, or whatever you are.
Mr. Starnes. I am merely an American, although I have some
Irish in me.
Mr. Kuhn. So am I.
Mr. Starnes. Section 5 reads:
To try to bring a better understanding to our American fellow citizens of
the real and undisputable German achievements in the sciences and arts, the
German inventions and contributions toward the advancement of agriculture,
industry, and commerce : the great world-wide recognized Gorman institu-
tions of learning, the German high standard of the various professions, hand-
crafts, and labor, the outstanding German laws and institutions for the pro-
tection and welfare of the country as a whole, the ancient German ideals of
liberty, justice, honor, and education.
"Why is it necessary to set up a group of American citizens to
bring about a better understanding and appreciation of another
country's ideals, laws, and institutions?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is a matter of opinion.
Mr. Starnes. Why dont' you try to direct the energies of your
organization toward a better understanding of the ideals and insti-
tutions of your own adopted country?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, where they come from — they come frome some-
whore
Mr. Starnes. It does not make any difference where they come
from. If you become an adopted citizen of a country, then all j7our
ideas of loyalty to the other country should cease.
Mr. Kuhn. Absolntelv.
Mr. Starnes. And this committee wants to know why it is neces-
sarv for yon or any other person to set up in this country an organi-
zation to teach the ideals, laws, and institutions of other countries.
Can you answer that question?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, ves; I can.
Mr. Stuines. All right; give us the reason why it is necossarv.
Mr. Kuhn. It is nocessarv because everythinfr today that is com-
ing from Germany is being picked on in a way that you can't stand it.
.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3773
The Chairman. You mean by that, attacks on the Nazi form of
government ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; it has nothing to do with the Nazi form of govern-
ment. We do not care about the Nazi form of government.
Mr. Staenes. Section 11 reads:
To be and remain worthy —
Get that—
To be and remain worthy of our Germanic blood, onr German motherland,
onr German brothers and sisters, and to cultivate our German language, and
customs and ideals ; and to be upstandingly proud of these principles.
What is there about those things that you want to inculcate into
American citizens to be proud of? What is there in the ideals and
institutions that are Germanic that you want them to be proud of?
Give us an answer to that question.
Mr. Kuhn. In every line of art and science, where did it come
from? Didn't a lot of it come from Germany? Because a man is
a German inventor, I do not necessarily say that he is good, but
merely because he is a German inventor you should not attack him.
Mr. Starnes. What about the language?
Mr. Kuhn. What is wrong with the language?
Mr. Starnes. Why is it necessary for you to inculcate a love for
that language in American citizens? What ideals are there that
you want them to be upstandingly proud of? Are they the ideals
of Germany today?
Mr. Kuhn. No, absolutely not; and you know absolutely not.
Mr. Starnes. By the way, did you make a visit to Germany in
1936?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. Starnes. Did you meet Mr. Hitler while you were there ?
Mr. Kuhn. I did. "
Mr. Starnes. Did you make a report to him ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I did not.
Mr. Starnes. Did you make any contribution to him at that time ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I did.
Mr. Starnes. How much was it?
Mr. Kuhn. About — around — under $3,000.
Mr. Starnes. For what purpose?
Mr. Kuhn. For winter relief.
Mr. Starnes. Winter relief for German citizens?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. In Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. You went over to the Olympic in 1936 ?
Mr. Kuhn. Right.
Mr. Starnes. Did you carry over some of your uniformed groups
at that time?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. And you paraded in the streets of Berlin at that
time?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. St.arnes. In a distinctive uniform?
Mr. Kuhn. In an American uniform.
;
3774 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. An American uniform. What type was it — Army
or Navv?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. It was not either of those ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. You wore the swastika arm band ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. And you marched under the German flag?
Mr. Kuhn. No; it was the American flag1.
Mr. Starnes. And you did not have any German flag at that time ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; not one.
Mr. Starnes. You do not have the bund flag any more?
Mr. Kuhn. Not any more.
Mr. Starnes. You have had it?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; years ago. I am not responsible for that. It is
funny that our American Ambassador did not have any objection
Mr. Starnes (interposing). Look at that picture of the Nordland
Camp [handing photograph to the witness]. Is that an authentic
picture ?
Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so; yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. That is Camp Nordland?
Mr. Kuhn. It looks like it might be. IT
Mr. Starnes. Those are American children there?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Marching under the swastika of the German
Government?
Mr. Kuhn. Where is the swastika ? You made the statement that
they were marching under the swastika. Where is the swastika?
Where is the German flag in that picture?
Mr. Starnes. Look at that picture [handing a photograph to the
witnessl .
Mr. Kuhn. That is me.
Mr. Starnes. With Mr. Hitler, isn't it?
Mr. Kuhn. With Mr. Hitler.
Mr. Starnes. And you have Mr. Markmann there, too?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; Mr. Markmann is there.
Mr. Starnes. He is your leader in the New York district?
Mr. Kuhn. Riffht.
Mr. Starnes. Were you making some report to Mr. Hitler ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; we did not make any report at all.
Mr. Starnes. You did not tell him about the activities of the
bund?
Mr. Kuhn. We did not; no.
Mr. Stapnes. And you did not tell him that you had a group of
people of Germanic blood in America who were inculcating a love
for the language, the customs, and the ideals of Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. No; we did not. We were not there for 10 minutes,
and he asked us about the Olympic games and how we liked them.
Mr. Starnes. That is all he asked you?
Mr. Kuhn. That is all. Why don't you bring Mr. Hearst here
and ask him about it ? He was there, too.
Mr. Starnes. He did not give them any money?
Mi'. Kuhn. Oh, no; he did not. Where is this half. million dol-
lars in gold coming from?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3775
Mr. Starnes. He did not report to him as the head of an organi-
zation?
Mr. Kuiin. No; he did not.
Mr. Starnes. And you did not?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I did not.
Mr. Starnes. Look at this picture and see if that is authentic of
your Chicago meeting [handing a photograph to the witness]. Is
that authentic?
Mr. Kuhn. It might be. I don't recall it.
Mr. Starnes. Is that the swastika in the background ?
Mr. Kuhn. That is the swastika in the background; yes. What is
wrong about that German flag there?
Mr. Starnes. Look at this other picture of the Nordland Camp,
and the young American children there [handing a photograph to
the witness].
Mr. Kuhn. You showed me that. It does not show any swastika
there. When the King of England came there was a lot of British
flags out there, was there not?
Mr. Starnes. Look at those two children there [handing a photo-
graph to the witness].
Mr. Kuhn. Where is the swastika on that? That is a set picture.
What that is I don't know. The background shows me. That is a
set picture. Where you got that from I would like to know. We
never make pictures like that.
Mr. Starnes. Did you have the swastika at your Madison Square
Garden meeting in New York City this year?
Mr. Kuhn. We did not have any German flag there at all. If you
would like to have it for the record, here is a speech that I delivered
on April 17, 1938. There is a program, and if you want to, you can
read it [handing a paper to Mr. Starnes] .
Mr. Starnes. I hand you here what purports to be a picture of the
national Nazi convention banquet, Biltmore Hotel, New York, on
July 3, 1937. Look at that picture and say whether it is authentic.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I be on there.
Mr. Starnes. You are on there, are you not ?
Mr. Kuhn. Don't you see who is there, speaking?
Mr. Starnes. Are you not on that picture?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I am.
Mr. Starnes. The swastika is displayed rather prominently there,
is it not ?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, there are two American flags. So long as a
German representative is there, you have to do it, you know. That
is done everywhere, in the whole world.
Mr. Starnes. You publish a yearbook, do you not ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; we did twice.
Mr. Starnes. You published one in 1937?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct. I did not publish it, but
Mr. Starnes. I notice here that you have a meeting in New York ;
is that authentic [handing picture to witness].
Mr. Kuhn. Well, if it is in the yearbook, it would be right.
Mr. Starnes. At which the swastika is displayed. That swastika
is the emblem of the modern German Government; is it not?
Mr. Kuhn. It is not.
Mr. Starnes. It is not?
3776 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Ktthn. No; that is not.
Mr. Starnes. When was it first used?
Mr. Kuhn. It was used 4,000 years ago.
Mr. Starnes. But when did the German Government first use it as
a national emblem? Was it the national emblem in 1917?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Or 1914?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. It did not become the national emblem of the German
Government until Hitler came into power, did it?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. •
Mr. Starnes. That is correct, is it not ?
Mr. Kuhn. That is absolutely correct. But that is an entirely
different swastika.
Mr. Starnes. And the German Bund was not organized until after
Hitler rose in power — the German-American Bund?
Mr. Kuhn. No; you are wrong on that.
Mr. Starnes. I believe you told me that the German-American
Bund was organized in 1936, in Buffalo, did you not ?
Mr. Kuhn. The bund; yes.
Mr. Starnes. Well, that is what I asked you.
Mr. Kuhn. Long afterward; yes.
Mr. Starves. Therefore, it was organized after Hitler came into
power in Germany.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. But it has nothing to do with it. What has that
to do with it? It was organized after Stalin was elected over there,
too. So what about it?
Mr. Starnes. You carry a statement from Hitler in your yearbook
of 1937; do you not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And you also carry one from Goebbels, Joseph
Goebbels?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. In which he states, in effect, that Germany's ene-
mies are your enemies ; is that right ?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right ; they are yours, too.
Mr. Starnes. Mine too; is that correct?
Mr. Kuhn. Yours too; that is correct.
Mr. Starnes. And her friends are my friends, too. That is his
statement to you, is it not?
Mr. Kuhn. I did not make that statement.
Mr. Starnes. Will you read to us the English version of this
statement that I hand you, that appears underneath the picture of
Mr. Hitler and Mr. Goering? Will you give us the English trans-
lation of that statement by Mr. Goebbels in the lower right-hand
corner ?
Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Hitler and Goering are on the balcony of the
capitol over there; his office.
Mr. Starnes. And they are watching the parade of yourself and
your O. D. division?
Mr. Kuhn. Watching the parade; yes.
Mr. Starnes. Give us the English translation of that statement
by Minister Goebbels in the lower right-hand corner.
his
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3777
Mr. Kuhn (translating) :
Your fatherland is Germany. Love it more than anything in words and in
accomplishment.
Mr. Staknes. That is, in deeds.
Mr. Kuiin. Deeds.
Mr. Starnes. More in deeds than otherwise, is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mr. Starnes. Give us the rest of it.
Mr. Kuhn (translating) :
Germany's enemies are my enemies.
Mr. Starnes. That is right.
Mr. Kuhn. Are your enemies — addressing you — your enemies.
[Translating :]
Every citizen, even the little ones, is a part of Germany.
Mr. Starnes. In other words, wherever you are, if you are of
Germanic blood, you are a citizen of Germany; is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no.
Mr. Starnes. Is not that the Nazi philosophy?
Mr. Kuhn. No; it says exactly, "every German."
Mr. Starnes. Wherever he is.
Mr. Kuhn. So long as he is a German; yes. Just as an Ameri-
can is an American wherever he is in the world.
Mr. Whitley. Does it say "German citizen" or "every German"?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, you have no word for this German word here.
It means you have to be a part of the nation.
Mr. Starnes. Give us the rest of that statement now.
Mr. Kuhn (translating) :
You have to fulfill not only rights but duties ; and if every German does
that Germany will be great, will be successful.
Mr. Starnes. Did you read that part of the statement which said
that Germany's enemies are your enemies?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. What is the political purpose back of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. I just told you, to fight against the Communists, every
communistic idea.
Mr. Starnes. You say, then, that the bund is an antidote to com-
munism, is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; absolutely.
Mr. Starnes. It is also anti-Semitic in its purposes?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. What is its connection with the German Govern-
ment?
Mr. Kuhn. It has not any connection at all.
Mr. Starnes. Those are the aims and ideals of the present Ger-
man Government ; are they not ?
Mr. Kuhn. Not at all. I just have a speech which I delivered —
I showed it to the gentlemen here; read it, where I said in 1936,
in our program, that
Mr. Starnes. Is not Mr. Hitler against the Communists?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. Aren't you against the Communists?
Mr. Starnes. Is not Mr. Hitler anti-Semitic?
3778 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Aren't you anti-Semitic"?
Mr. Starnes. I am asking you the question. Is not Mr. Hitler
anti-Semitic?
Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so, from what I hear.
Mr. Starnes. Has he not driven hundreds of thousands of those
unfortunate people out of his country ?
Mr. Kuhn. Have not the Communists driven hundreds of thou-
sands of people out of Russia?
Mr. Starnes. I am asking you the question with reference to the
treatment of the Jews in Germany.
Mr. Kuhn. That is up to Mr. Hitler, not to me. What do I have
to do with Mr. Hitler? Subpena Mr. Hitler here.
p Mr. Starnes. You want to establish a party with the same posi-
tion in this country, do you not ?
Mr. Kuhn. That is absolutely a lie.
Mr. Starnes. Don't you call me a liar.
Did you not a moment ago testify that the purpose of your
organization was to fight communism?
Mr. Kuhn. To fight communism ; yes.
Mr. Starnes. And did you not also testify that you were against
the Jews? Is not that true?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. What is there untruthful, then, about that state-
ment?
Mr. Kuhn. You said I have something to do with the German
Government.
Mr. Starnes. I said what?
Mr. Kuhn. You said I have something to do with the German
Government.
Mr. Starnes. I asked if you had something to do with it, and you
said, "No."
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. And then I asked you if your purposes were not
the same in that you were against communism and you were against
the Jews, and now your answer is "yes"; is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. So are you.
The Chairman. Make your answers responsive.
Mr. Kuhn. Put the questions so I can answer them "yes" or
"no."
Mr. Starnes. Do you receive any propaganda from Germany, from
any source?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; I do not.
Mr. Starnes. None whatsoever?
Mr. Kuhn. None whatsoever.
Mr. Starnes. Does not your organization or do you have anything
to do with the Ausland Institute at Stuttgart?
Mr. Kuhn. Not so much [illustrating].
Mr. Starnes. What is the Ausland Institute ; do you know ?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I might be wrong. I only tell you what I know
about it. The Ausland Institute in Stuttgart' that you are referring
to is an institution which is dealing with — it is a party institution,
if I understand right, and they do not even deal with the German citi-
zen. They only deal with the Nazi, with members of the Nazi Party.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3779
Mr. Starnes. Is it not an organization which tries to spread a
love for German ideals and language and customs throughout the
world ?
Mr. Kuiin. Not to my knowledge. And if it is so, I do not know
anything about it. I have nothing to do with it.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know how it is financed?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not. I really do not.
Mr. Starnes. You said a moment ago that it was the purpose of
your organization to carry on a program of enlightenment. What
sort of enlightenment?
Mr. Kuhn. Against the Communists.
Mr. Starnes. Against the Communists?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; against corruption.
Mr. Starnes. Against corruption?
Mr. Kuhn. Right.
Mr. Starnes. You raise funds for your purposes in three ways.
First, by your initiation dues; is that right? Those are dues of $1
per member; is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Starnes. Secondly, by monthly dues. That is right, that is
another means?
Mr. Kuhn. That is all in the record.
Mr. Starnes. And the third is by voluntary contributions.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. How do you spread that program of enlightenment?
Mr. Kuhn. You see, for instance, a few things here. We cannot
do very much because we have not the money. I wish I could do
more. For instance, here — thinks like that [indicating pamphlet].
We send those out where we can, to everybody. That should be sold
for 15 cents, if they have the money. Sometimes we cannot get it.
Mr. Starnes. What is that, a number of speeches?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. By whom?
Mr. Kuhn. It is our addresses, at Madison Square Garden. We
have that in a pamphlet so everybody knows what we are talking
about and what we stand for. You find everything in there.
Mr. Starnes. What else do you send out?
Mr. Kuhn. For instance, pamphlets.
Mr. Starnes. Do you have any of your pamphlets with you ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; I have some of them here.
Mr. Starnes. Will you leave a copy of those for the committee ?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, for everybody. There are a lot of those.
Mr. Starnes. How many of those do you put out each year ?
Air. Kuhn. They are different. For instance, we had about a hun-
dred thousand of them so far, but I ordered a second printing already
[indicating pamphlet].
Mr. Starnes. How much money have you received from voluntary
sources, voluntary contributions ?
Mr. Kuhn. I cannot give you exactly; it was about $18,000 in 18
months. That was the statement I made; that is very rough. I do
not ask every day the treasurer how much came in. That is his busi-
ness. Right now it is my business, because he just died, you know.
3780 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. How much is paid out each year ?
Mr. Kuhn. We pay out as much as we can, as much as we have
money left, after the routine work is done. As I told you before, it
costs us about $800 a month to run the office. Then there comes some
other expenses — traveling expenses, for instance. And the rest is used
for all kinds of stuff.
Mr. Starnes. How many of your national organizations are on a
salary basis ?
Mr. Kuhn. Two outside of me.
Mr. Starnes. Two officers outside of you ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. That is the treasurer and the secretary ?
Mr. Kuhn. The treasurer is not. The secretary and Mr. Kunze.
Mr. Starnes. What is Mr. Kunze's official position ? He is minister
of
Mr. Kuhn. Public enlightenment.
Mr. Starnes. Public enlightenment. You said there were approxi-
mately a hundred units in this country?
Mr. Kuhn. Approximately.
Mr. Starnes. Have you got one here in Washington, in the District
of Columbia?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. You do not have one here ?
Mr .Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. You did have ?
Mr. Kuhn. We did have ; yes.
Mr. Starnes. You have one in Miami, Fla. dK
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Who is the leader there ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall the name.
Mr. Starnes. You do not recall the name ?
Mr. Kuhn. I promised you the list of these units. I have one in
Alabama, too.
Mr. Starnes. You have one in Alabama ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Since you have refreshed your recollection, can you
tell me who it is in Alabama ? ]
Mr. Kuhn. No ; I cannot. I will give you the list.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know any of your leaders in Alabama?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; I do, of course. Of course, I do.
Mr. Starnes. Who is the leader in Alabama?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know offhand.
Mr. Starnes. You do not know offhand ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not recollect.
Mr. Starnes. Do you receive any contributions from Alabama?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, yes.
Mr. Starnes. From whom, do you know?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, contributions from the local units there.
Mr. Starnes. Those are the only contributions you receive from
there?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; I think so.
Mr. Starnes. Have any corporations in this country made any
donations to the bund?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3781
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. None whatsoever?
Mr. Kuhn. None whatsoever.
Mr. Starnes. Have the officers of any of the corporations in this
country furnished any money to the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Which corporations?
Mr. Starnes. I mean any corporation.
Mr. Kuhn. Business corporation?
Mr. Starnes. Yes.
Mr. Kuhn. Our own corporation?
Mr. Starnes. Any business corporation?
Mr. Kuhn. Not our own.
Mr. Starnes. Not your own; business corporations.
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. You have received absolutely nothing?
Mr. Kuhn. Nothing.
Mr. Starnes. You sign all checks of the bund, in paying expenses
of the bund, do you not?
Mr. Kuhn. As far as the headquarters are concerned ; yes. It used
to be the treasurer and myself, but as he is dead it is me alone, until
the new treasurer is elected.
Mr. Starnes. Those are all the questions I have right now, Mr.
Chairman.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions?
Mr. Mason. I would like to interject this thought, that if there is
any necessity for a German-American Bund, to teach American chil-
dren and Americans of German birth all the things that Germany
stands for, the logical conclusion would be that the French descend-
ants in this country and the English and the Norwegian and the
Danish and the descendants of all the other nations should have
similar bunds to do the same thing for their fatherlands. Then we
would have no Nation whatever, because we would be just a varied
group. That is the logical conclusion that you must come to in all
of these things.
Mr. Kuhn. We do not teach anything about Germany at all. We
have to do enough here. We do not teach anything about Germany.
Mr. Mason. German ideals and the German language and the
German inheritance and German culture and German "all this"; we
have the same inheritances from other nations, the French and the
English and all the others that have contributed to American civili-
zation.
Mr. Kuhn. That is all we do. We try to contribute to it ; that is
all ; that is right.
Mr. Whitley. I believe, Mr. Kuhn, a few minutes ago, when I
mentioned the name of Mr. Edward James Smythe and asked you
what your relations had been with him you indicated that you had
had none.
Mr. Kuhn. None.
Mr. Whitley. None whatever?
Mr. Kuhn. None whatever.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever published any of his articles, any-
thing of that kind?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not think so.
94931 — 39— vol. 6 6
3782 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. On March 30, 1937, the German-American Bund
held a meeting in the New York Turin Hall and Edward James
Smythe was one of the speakers. Were you present on that occasion ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not think so.
Mr. Whitley. You do not think you were?
Mr. Kuhn. That is mostly a local unit in New York. It is up
to the local unit leader to get his speakers. If he got Smythe at
that time, then it was certainly a mistake. That must be a long
time ago.
Mr. Whitley. Nineteen thirty-seven.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is all right. That is 2 years ago.
Mr. Whitley. You did have friendly relations with him at that
time ?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I saw him, talked with him a few times.
Mr. Whitley. About what?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, as a matter of fact, he talked to me about his
Protestant organization. I have nothing to do with that, because
I have to take care of my own organization, not anybody else's.
Mr. Whitley. So far as you know, have any of the other high
officials of the German-American Bund, the national organization,
had any relations with him or his associates?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, he came up to the office a few times last year,
but he does not come up any more, because he was absolutely for-
bidden to come up.
Mr. Whitley. He used to come up there?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; he came up there ; that is right.
Mr. Whitley. Your officer, Mr. James Wheeler Hill, what is his
official capacity?
Mr. Kuhn. National secretary.
Mr. Whitley. Did he use Mr. Smythe as one of his agents in sell-
ing tickets for the Madison Square Garden rally?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know that. He had the whole ticket matter in
his hands. I do not know who he engaged to help him sell tickets.
That is a detail. I do not know that.
Mr. Whitley. Getting back to the list of individuals and organi-
zations with whom you have had associations or with whom you have
cooperated, how about Mr. Roy Zachary, of the Silver Shirts? Have
you ever had any dealings with him?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever published any of his articles?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. James True, have you ever met Mr. True?
Mr. Kuhn. I never met him personally.
Mr. Whitley. Have you had any correspondence with him?
Mr. Kuhn. Very few. I get his records. I get his record.
Mr. Starnes. Did you say that you have the name of the man
who is the head of the bund in Birmingham, Ala.?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall the name. After all, there are hundreds
of them. I do not like to give you a wrong name. I promised you
the list.
"Sir. Starnes. Just to refresh your recollection, do you recall who
it is that is the head of your bund in Albuquerque?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. In New Mexico?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3783
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Or in Fort Worth, Tex.?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Do you recall who it is in San Francisco?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Who is it?
Mr. Kuhn. Hein.
Mr. Starnes. What is his first name?
Mr. Kuhn. I think it is Gottfried.
Mr. Whitley. G. K. Hein.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know the one in Denver, Colo.?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starves. You clo not know the one in Denver, Colo.?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. But you will furnish those for the record, for the
use of the committee ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. You will give us the name of every local unit leader.
Now, speaking of your membership, about 35 or 40 percent of your
membership is in the metropolitan area of New York and the New
England States, is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. I did not figure it out.
Mr. Starnes. I believe you said you had about 15 to 18 local units
in New York?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And some six or seven in New Jersey, and some seven
or eight in New England.
Then the next largest group that you have, as you mentioned them
this morning, was nine in California, and about three or four more
on the Pacific coast ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. So approximately 50 percent, if not more of your
membership, are in those two areas?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is logical. Those are the biggest cities.
Mr. Whitley. What was the source of that money that you took
over as a contribution to Mr. Hitler?
Mr. Kuiin. That was in 1936.
Mr. Whitley. I want the source, where it came from; out of the
treasury of the bund or from contributions?
Mr. Kuhn. Voluntary contributions.
Mr. Whitley. From bund members?
Mr. Kuhn. From everybody. I do not know whether it is bund
members only.
Mr. Whitley. What was Mr. Hitler supposed to do with that
contribution?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know what was supposed to be done
with it?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Did you at the same time present him with a golden
book?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. Everybody had the right to put his name in the
book.
Mr. Whitley. With the autographs of your own bund members?
3784 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Everybody put his own name in his own writing.
Mr. Whitley. Every one had his name in there?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starves. Who was present when you made that presentation
of the check and the book to Mr. Hitler ?
Mr. Kuhn. It was not a check. It was cash money.
Mr. Starnes. It was in cash?
Mr. Kuhn. I visited Mr. Dodd, the American Ambassador, to tell
him that we were an American organization of German descent. I
stated that I, nryself, had come to Germany for the first time in 12
years and was there any objection, and he agreed that there was no
objection at all.
Mr. Starnes. Who arranged the conference — Ambassador Dodd?
Mr, Kuhn. He did not arrange anything — I do not think so.
Mr. Starnes. Who arranged the conference with Mr. Hitler for
you?
Mr. Kuhn. Practically nobody. I went there, that is all.
Mr. Starnes. In other words, you just went up and met Mr.
Hitler.
Mr. Kuhn. Went in the office and asked the secretary, whoever it
was, if I could see him. That is all.
Mr. Starves. And that was all there was to it.
Mr. Kuhn. I represented an American group, otherwise they would
not even receive us.
Mr. Starnes. You did not have to have any representations made
for you by the American Ambassador or any officials of the German
Government. All you did was to go to Mr. Hitler's office and tell the
secretary who you were.
Mr. Kuhn. I did not even mention my name, because my name
did not mean anything. We were introduced to Mr. Hitler as an
American group.
Mr. Starnes. As an American group?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Who went with you?
Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Markmann, Mr. Froboese, and Mr. Weiler.
Mr. Starnes. Did Mr. Schwinn go?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. How long an audience did he grant you?
Mr. Kuhn. About 10 minutes.
Mr. Starnes. Did you see him again on the occasion of your visit
there ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Did you parade there, in Berlin, as a part of the
Olympic groups, or was there a special permit granted to you and
your group to parade?
Mr. Kuhn. No. We got a special permit to parade. Of course,
there was some other groups along.
Mr. Starnes. What were those groups?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall exactly, but we applied for permission
to parade and they told us somebody else is coming along at the
same time.
Mr. Starnes. From what other country did the other group come?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know.
Mr. Starnes. Was it one of the South American countries?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3785
Mr. Kuiin. I do not know; I do not think so. I really cannot re-
call that.
Mr. Starnes. Did you compliment Mr. Hitler on the achievements
of the German people under his leadership?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I did not.
Mr. Starnes. Did you have ai^ correspondence or any connection
whatsoever with any groups of German citizens in Brazil or the
Argentine?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Were any of those groups there?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, if they were there, I did not see them.
Mr. Starnes. By the way, the children that you have in your
camps in the summertime for instruction and training, the poor chil-
dren that you are helping out, do they wear a uniform of some type
or character?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. What kind of a uniform is it?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, more like the Boy Scouts; short pants and a
shirt.
Mr. Starnes. How many boys do you give training to each sum-
mer, to how many do you give the opportunity to get fresh air
and sunshine?
Mr. Kuhn. As many as we can get, as many as we have room for
out there.
Mr. Starnes. Well, how much room do you have out there?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, there is room provided in each camp — for in-
stance, the one camp in New Jersey, the highest we can get out there
is 350 to 400.
Mr. Starnes. You have had that many out there?
Mr. Kuhn. Not this year; no. We had once to full capacity.
Mr. Starnes. What about the girls? Do you keep separate camps
for the girls ?
Mr. Kuhn. Separate camps; yes.
Mr. Starnes. And those girls wear some sort of uniform, some
type of distinctive dress, do they not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. What sort of dress is that ?
Mr. Kuhn. A white shirt and a blue skirt. They wear that on
Sunday, otherwise they wear sport dresses.
Mr. St.arnes. Your orderly division, they wear a distinctive uni-
form, too, do they not?
Mr. Kuhn. We have the same suits.
Mr. Starnes. Your orderly division is composed of men, is it not?
Mr. Kuhn. Men, yes.
Mr. Starnes. They are the troop movement, the troops of the bund
movement, are they not?
Mr. Kuhn. What do you mean by troops?
Mr. Starnes. I mean by that, they are the group that you give
training to.
Mr. Kuhn. We do not give any training.
Mr. Starnes. No training at all?
Mr. Kuhn. None at all.
Mr. Starnes. No disciplinary training?
3786 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; if you march somewhere, you have to march in
a group, in order.
Mr. Starnes. That is what I meant. Do they not preserve order?
In other words, is not the purpose of that division to preserve order
at meetings?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And help direct traffic?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. They perform the same functions that a civil police
or members of a military police would perform on like occasions, do
they not ?
Mr. Kuhn. At a meeting; yes.
The Chairman. It is a fact that you have available at these camps
pamphlets and literature from Germany, do you not?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. You have never had any of that ?
Do you not display those on a table? For instance, German toys
and pamphlets and articles about Hitler, and so forth ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; only on very big days, very big celebrations.
Some merchant comes out there, some businessman, and they have
a table there. They ask us for permission to do that.
The Chairman. It is not the bund, but some merchant that wants
to sell these articles?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely.
The Chairman. And you permit them to sell these various books
on Hitler and other articles?
Mr. Kuhn. On Hitler, no; on everything.
The Chairman. Everything they want to sell.
Mr. Starnes. Thev sell Mein Kampf there ?
Mr. Kuhn. Well- —
Mr. Starnes. All the time, do they not ?
Mr. Kuhn. Not all the time; sometimes.
Mr. Starnes. Did I understand you to say that when you left Ger-
many in 1923 you came to Mexico?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mr. Starnes. Why did you leave Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. I became a refugee.
Mr. Starnes. You were a refugee?
Mr. Kuhn. Because the revolution was going on ; inflation was
there. Every second man was out of work. I lost my job. I had a
very good job with one of the greatest chemical concerns. We were
thrown out by the French Army of Occupation. A colored regiment
came in. A woman was not safe any more there. I had to take my
wife away, because they attacked right and left. There was not any
work in Germany at all. Every second one was out of work. And
if a man had a job he got a salary he could not live on. I had to go
somewhere.
Mr. Starnes. Why did you go to Mexico?
Mr. Kuiin. I was going to the United States originally, but I could
not. We have to wait for about 2 years on account of the quota. You
have to wait for your quota. The American consul in Munich, he
told me that it is very much easier if you go to Mexico; you only
have to wait a few months before you come in. I came to Mexico and
I had to wait for quite a length of time. I started to apply right
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3787
away after I got permission to enter. I had my own business and I
could not let go my business.
Mr. Starnes. Have you been back to Mexico?
Mr. Kuhn. I never was back.
Mr. Starnes. Never have been back?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. When did you leave Mexico?
Mr. Kuhn. In 1928 or 1929 ; I don't remember exactly when I left.
I never went back.
Mr. Starnes. Why did you go to Mexico when you intended to
come to America?
Mr. Kuhn. It was my intention to enter the United States.
Mr. Starnes. To enter the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. How many times have you been back to Germany
since ?
Mr. Kuhn. I was — the first time — back since I left in '23, was the
occasion in 1936; the next time I was there in 1938.
Mr. Starxes. And again the last year?
Mr. Kuhn. Last year; yes.
Mr. Starnes. Did you see Hitler on the occasion of your last visit?
Mr. Kuhn. No; it was absolutely private. If you would like to
know, it was on the occasion of my parents' golden wedding.
Mr. Starnes. Do the trade organizations have any connection at all
with the German business leaders and businessmen?
Mr. Kuhn. You mean over here; business?
Mr. Starnes. Or both.
Mr. Kuhn. We do not import anything; we are not importers at
all. We do not carry on that business at all.
Mr. Starxes. You do encourage the use of German-made goods?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. In other words you are the head of an economic
organization ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Along economic lines ?
Mr. Kuhn. Right.
Mr. Starnes. Yet you would say your organization and the various
organizations which you head up in this country
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). I don't hate anyone.
Mr. Starnes (interposing). I said head up.
Mr. Kuhn. The head of.
Mr. Starnes. The head of, have a political purpose and have an
economic purpose ; is that correct ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And you make no attempt whatsoever to dominate
the trade-union movement or to control it ?
Mr. Kuhn. Never.
Mr. Starnes. You do pay special attention to the training of chil-
dren and helping of children get instruction and education and
enlightenment in your summer camps?
Mr. Kuhn. We do not have any political training — if you mean
enlightenment outside of training children in camps, why, that is a
privilege
3788 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes (interposing). I mean, you pay attention to instruct-
ing them and in educating them?
Mr. Kuhn. What do you mean?
Mr. Starnes. What I want to know is what you mean by instruc-
tion?
Mr. Kuhn. What do you mean; you are asking the questions?
Mr. Starnes. Do you not give instructions in textbooks, the German
language, and the ideology of government.
Mr. Kuhn. The only thing, if that is what you call education, the
only thing we do is to teach them the German language, some folk
songs, and a few stories.
Mr. Starnes. The German folk songs?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And the German stories which you teach them deal
with the German ideas and customs, do they not ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, not necessarily, especially not now. If you will
look at the folk songs you will find there are very few new songs in
them.
Mr. Starnes. What is your political philosophy?
Mr. Kuhn. My political philosophy?
Mr. Starnes. Yes.
Mr. Kuhn. American.
Mr. Starnes. It is anticommunistic ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; it is.
Mr. Starnes. And anti-Semitic?
Mr. Kuhn. So far as
Mr. Starnes (continuing). What does it embrace, from a political
standpoint ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not get the question.
Mr. Starnes. What I am trving to get at is this—
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). What I stand for?
Mr. Starnes. All of us are against communism, that is, if we are
real American people. What I am try to get at is what the organiza-
tion stands for, and what is your philosophy; your political phil-
osophy, what you stand for?
Mr. Kuhn. Well I believe we should fight for our country, like
Germans always have.
Mr. Starnes. What is your country?
Mr. Kuhn. The United States, and the German people here have
always proved that. Wasn't it the Germans who came down in the
Civil War first and the members of this organization would again,
when the Government calls, be the first to volunteer; it would be a
volunteer organization, of course.
Mr. Thomas. Right there may I ask a question ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Suppose this country, right now, should get into a
war with Germany
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I get that question often.
Mr. Thomas. This group would be the first to volunteer ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; and I have made that statement publicly many
times, and I could prove it here in America. It might hurt me
The Chairman. Why would it hurt you?
Mr. Kuhn. To fi^ht against my own people? My father and
mother live there, why wouldn't it hurt me? My father lives there.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3789
If your father lived in Ireland, and you were Irish and had to fight,
wouldn't it hurt you a little? But if I had to I would do it.
Mr. Thomas. Right along that line, what I was trying to get is your
probable estimate of about how many German-Americans there are in
the United States.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. About how many are there, according to your estimate?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is very hard to figure; the figures go up very
rapidly.
Mr. Thomas. It is a very large number?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, very large. We believe — we call them of German
descent, where both parents are German or where one is born in
Germany.
Mr. Thomas (interposing). Well, about how many?
Mr. Kuhn. It figures about twenty million.
Mr. Thomas. Twenty million?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. There are approximately twenty million German-
Americans in the United States, and your organization has something
less than twenty-five thousand?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. That is a very small part of them.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Those who are German-American.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Which probably means that a large number of the
German-American citizens do not approve of the organization you
represent.
Mr. Kuhn. No ; it doesn't mean they do not approve it necessarily.
We might criticize them, which I shouldn't, but we are not politically
minded ; but it is a fact, in my estimation, that the German element in
this country has the biggest percentage which does not go to the polls,
for instance.
Mr. Thomas. But the fact remains that only a very small percentage
of the German-American citizens belong to your organization ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. An insignificant percentage.
Mr. Mason. One-tenth of 1 percent.
Mr. Kuhn. So it cannot be very dangerous.
Mr. Thomas. The reason I bring that out is this : I agree with the
other members of the committee that your organization is not one to
be happy over and I think the German-American citizens in the
United States are generally good citizens and as good citizens would
not tolerate such an organization.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, if that is your opinion. This is mine.
Mr. Starnes. Mr. Kuhn, you used imported movies at your summer
camps?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. No ?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no.
Mr. Starnes. Did you not have
Mr. Kuhn. We had one movie recently from Germanj^ ; that is the
only one.
Mr. Starnes. That is the only one.
3790 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. But you do disseminate and hand out a great deal of
printed material, pamphlets, and books that are published in German,
do you not ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. Right there, do you know George Deibel?
Mr. Kuhn. That would be in Los Angeles ?
The Chairman. You know him very well?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Mr. Kuhn, is that his photograph [handing photo-
graph to witness] ?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
The Chairman. Standing back of the table with German literature
on it, propaganda; is that correct?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, that must be an old picture ; I don't know. I was
just recently down in Los Angeles, and I was out at the same celebra-
tion in the park where you attended the celebration and I did not see
any. I was down in Los Angeles and they had a table out there, like
that you see here, but there wasn't any German propaganda. That
must be an old picture.
The Chairman. You have seen similar situations, have you not ?
Mr. Kuhn. Years ago ; yes.
The Chairman. With members of the bund distributing litera-
ture, heven't you?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. When they were handing out German propa-
ganda?
Mr. Kuhn. Not necessarily propaganda; books that you can buy
in a book store.
The Chairman. It was not just one book.
Mr. Kuhn. Books, but not necessarily propaganda.
The Chairman. You have members of your organization, have
you not, handing out literature?
Mr. Kuhn. It is for sale, what you can buy in a book store.
Mr. Starnes. It is published in German ?
Mr. Kuhn. Not always published in German ; might be published
in German.
Mr. Starnes. Mein Kampf is published in the German language?
Mr. Kuhn. There is an English translation published here.
Mr. Starnes. I am talking about the German language.
Mr. Kuhn. Likely; I suppose so; I don't know.
Mr. Starnes. In 1937 the yearbook of the German-American
Bund's accomplishments were published in the German language?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. What about the year before that, 1936 ?
Mr. Kuhn. 1937 and 1936.
Mr. Starnes. 1936 and 1937?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Were published in German?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr*. Starnes. Not published in the English language?
Mr. Kuhn. Is there something wrong about that ?
Mr. Starnes. It is an American organization and yet you felt it
was necessary to publish its accomplishments, broadcast its accom-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 379 1
plishments to the American people and to the world in the language
other than that of your adopted country.
Mr. Kuiin. Well the American people could — they could buy it;
and if it is printed in German the Americans could read it.
The Chairman. Suppose we let Mr. Whitley resume.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, have you ever had Mr. Deatherage as a
speaker at the bund meetings?
Mr. Kuhn. Not that I recall.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever invited him ?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I do not know; I would not object.
We might have had some of the local units invite him as a speaker.
Mr. Whitley. You never met him?
Mr. Kuhn. I never met him.
Mr. Whitley. Would you object if a local organization had him
as a speaker?
Mr. Kuhn. No : I would not.
Mr. Whitley. In the November 11, 1937, issue of the Weckruf,
column 5, page 5, is an announcement of a bund meeting for Novem-
ber 16 at theT Turnover Hall, New York, in which it is stated that
George Deatherage has been invited to speak. You are not familiar
with that?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; I am not.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever published any of Mr. Deatherage's
material in the Weckruf?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, I think we did ; I am not sure. I think so. I do
not recall.
Mr. Whitley. But you would not object to publishing it?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I would not.
Mr. Whitley. In the Weckruf, dated May 12, 1937, page 3, is con-
tained an article which includes a reprint of literature which was
sent in by George Deatherage, president of the American Nationalist
Confederation sent to President Roosevelt and to Secretary Hull
concerning world service. We will get into a discussion of world
service later.
You are not familiar with that statement?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; I am not.
Mr. Whitley. But you would not object to it? Do you know
Edmondson; do you know whether he was ever invited to speak to
the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know if I did, but I know him personally.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever praised his work?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. The literature of Edmondson?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You praised him and complimented him on the
work he was performing?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know William Zachary; and do you know
if Mr. Zachary was ever invited to address a local organization of
the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Not that I know of.
Mr. Whitley. In the Weckruf, dated June 23, 1938, page 5, column
4, note from Los Angeles Chapter reports that on June 8, 1938,
3792 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Zachary addressed the Los Angeles bund, in a speech in which he
said the Silver Shirts was similar to the bund.
Do you recall that address ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I recall that there was one meeting in Los An-
geles, and of the Silver Shirts, but it isn't any more.
Mr. Whitley. You mean they do not meet out there any more?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That is since you and Mr. Pelley had disagreed?
Mr. Kuhn. What?
Mr. Whitley. Is that after you and Mr. Pelley had disagreed?
Mr. Kuhn. We never disagreed ; we didn't disagree. As a matter
of fact, I was out there in 1936.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever publish Mr. James True's material
in the Weckruf ?
Mr. Kuhn. I think we did.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, you published it right often,
haven't you?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you are in agreement with Mr. True's publi-
cation ?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, his publication is very good, sometimes.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever reprinted in your own official publi-
cation, which circulates to the bund members, any other material or
literature from any other organization in London, which organization
publishes a magazine in London known as the Patriot ?
Mr. Kuhn. Which publishes that magazine ?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know who publishes it.
Mr. Whitley. Moseley. You do not know about that,
In the Weckruf dated' May 26, 1938, is another article of Edmond-
son.
Does your organization ever cooperate with Italian Fascist groups
or cooperate with them in your camps?
Mr. Kuhn. There were a few at some of the meetings.
Mr. Whitley. On some occasions you have had them at your
camps ?
Mr. Kuhn. There was one occasion when they were at camp, so
far as a time when I was president. I do not know of any other
occasion.
Mr. Whitley. What Italian groups were they?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. There are about seven ; I do not know
which one.
Mr. Whitley. There are about seven different Italian groups?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, so far as I know. You would have to define what
you mean by "Fascist,"
Mr. Whitley. Well, just Italians.
Mr. Kuiin. Italians, yes.
Mr. Whitley. Would you know the names if I read them to you?
Mr. Kuhn. Probably I would ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever cooperate in a demonstration or meet-
ing of any kind with an Italian group known as the Circolo Mor-
ganHno?
Mr. Kuhn. If you will give me the name of the president?
Mr. Whitley. Joe Santo.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3793
Mr. Kuhn. I think that is one. There are two different ones.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Kuhn. One was had some quite awhile ago.
Mr. Whitley. Caridi?
Mr. Kuhn. Is that the fellow who has a lame leg? I really don't
recall his name. There was two organizations in the meeting.
Mr. Whitley. You had a demonstration on June 18, 1937, at camp
Nordland.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. At that time Caridi was present?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And a large group of his Italian Black Shirts were
present ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And participated in that demonstration.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; that is right.
Mr. Whitley. At that time Santo and his Black Shirts participated
in the demonstration?
Mr. Kuhn. I can't tell you. There were two different ones.
Mr. Whitley. That was the demonstration at Camp Siegfried.
Mr. Kuhn. That was the fellow with the lame leg.
Mr. Whitley. That was in July 1937.
Mr. Kuhn. I think he was there ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Another demonstration at Camp Siegfried, August
29, 1937. Do you recall a man by the name of Fenzio, of New York,
a leader of the Italian organization
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). Well, there are a lot of Italian organiza-
tions.
Mr. Whitely. You do cooperate with them in many organization
demonstrations ?
Mr. Kuhn. We have a few times.
Mr. Whitley. They visit you. Do you ever visit them?
Mr. Kuhn. I visited them in one of their meetings at some hotel
in New York.
Mr. Starnes. They are all Fascist organizations, are they not?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I do not know what you call a Fascist organiza-
tion. You would have to explain to me what you mean by "Fascist."
Mr. Starnes. They are all groups of Italians, organizations of
Italians, are they not ? I mean groups of Italians in an organization
somevdiat similar to the bund ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know the constitution of these organizations?
Mr. Starnes. I did not mean their constitutions; I mean they are
groups of Italian citizens, of Italian people ?
Mr. Kuhn. I understand, of American citizens.
Mr. Starnes. But they are of Italian descent.
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mr. Starnes. Now, in view of the fact that you say that you are
the head of a movement which professedly has a political ambition, I
am wondering if your group would be predominantly in favor of a
totally different type of government from what we have now?
Mr. Kuhn. The same government, the same form which was fos-
tered by Washington.
Mr. Starnes. In other words, a constitutional government, de-
mocracy ?
3794 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; lived up to today.
Mr. Starves. That is your political philosophy?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. But it would be a government controlled bj
Aryans wouldn't it?
Mr. Kuhn. By whom?
The Chairman. By Aryans.
Mr. Kuhn. By a majority.
The Chairman. But by Aryans?
Mr. Kuhn. Not necessarily ; no.
The Chairman. Do you not say that in this pamphlet, "the Aryan-
American nationalists" ?
Mr. Kuhn. We believe that if 96 percent of the people — we believe
in a majority rule, and we believe absolutely in a majority rule, and
that all people have a right to decide
The Chairman. But it would be a government administered by
them, by the Aryan race ?
Mr. Kuhn. By a majority.
The Chairman. But by Christian, gentile rule; rule by Christians
and gentiles?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; of course, must believe in Christianity.
The Chairman. Ruled by Christians ? Is the German Government
ruled by Christians and gentiles?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. It is?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Then it would be practically the same kind of
government that the}r have in Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. At least, to that extent it would.
Mr. Kuhn. No. I have told you, and I have often made the state-
ment, that the organization in Germany would not be suited to the
United States and that our organization has absolutely nothing to do
with Germany.
The Chairman. But you have just said that the Government in
Germany was ruled by Christians and gentiles. You want them to
rule?
Mr. Kuhn. The majority rule.
Mr. Starnes. Aryans, of course.
Mr. Thomas. Now, if you take this same line of reasoning and
carry out your political philosophies, the government would be in
time different, would it not?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; the onlv difference would be you could have only
4 percent — if there were 100 people and there are 96 of them Chris-
tians, there should be 96 to 4 in the Government.
Mr. Thomas. You would put it on a percentage basis?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. You do not see anything wrong about that?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Thomas. Now let me ask you if that is what they do in
Germany
Mr. Kuhn (interi^osing). I am not concerned with Germany; I
am concerned with the American Government.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3795
(Mr. Thomas. Well, I am not asking you about Germany; I am
asking you what you think right over here. Now, following out
that same line of thought you would give the Jewish people 4 per-
il i cent of influence in the Government?
Mr. Kuhx. Suppose that is right.
Mr. Thomas. That is what you said.
Mr. Kuhn. That is, if the people agree — a majority agree.
Mr. Thomas. You would give the Jewish people 4 percent
influence?
The Chairman. Provided a majority agrees, you say?
Mr. Kuhn. If the majority agrees; yes.
Mr. Thomas. Yes. But you advocate that, do you not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; that is my opinion — don't I have a right to my
own opinion '.
Mr. Thomas. Well, as head of the bund you are in favor of this,
are you not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. All right. Then what would prevent your organ-
ization at a later date or some other organization advocating, we
will sav. that the Catholic should have 36 percent?
Mr. Kuhx. Well, that would be up to the Catholics, if a majority
ruled, if a majority of the people
Mr. Thomas. If the majority ruled the Jews should have only
4 percent, and the majority might later on rule the Catholics, or
some other organization rule that the Catholics, should have 36 per-
cent, which would mean that you would get down later to a point
where possibly you would not have any representation at all for
some groups.
Mr. Kuhn. No; you cannot compare, and we are not dealing with
religions; we are dealing with majorities. Naturally, you are speak-
ing of religions. The Jews are a race.
Mr. Thomas. Isn't it religion when you refer to the Jews?
Mr. Kuhn. It is a race.
Mr. Thomas. But isn't it also a religion with the Jews?
Mr. Kuhn. Possibly; yes.
Mr. Thomas. And when you say that the Jews should only have
a 4-percent interest, or representation in the Government
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). Well, it is our contention that the major-
ity rule on that; and a majority, of course, would guarantee majority
rule.
Mr. Thomas. Do you not think that it would be absolutely contrary
to the kind of government our forefathers in this country laid
down ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; it would be just exactly what our forefathers laid
down.
Mr. Mason. Well, I want to instruct you on what Americanism is,
if that is your understanding. I am afraid you missed the mark
of what American democracy necessarily means. Of course, it goes
along with majority rule, but there is also the fundamental principle
in American democracies that the minorities are protected and given
the same opportunities as the majority.
Mr. Kuhx. Right; I agree with you 100 percent; and to that we
pledge ourselves.
3796 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Mason. Is there any pledge to that in this language here?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; and I would like to give you an illustration of
where they are calling out the Army, as shown in this paper.
Mr. Thomas. May I see that?
Mr. Kuhn. Will you give it back to me?
Mr. Thomas. Surely.
Mr. Starnes. What do you mean by "we pledge"?
Mr. Kuhn. The German-American Bund.
Mr. Starnes. All right.
Mr. Kuhn. You can see the situation here [indicating on paper J.
The Chairman. If you gentlemen have finished, suppose we let
Mr. Whitley continue.
Mr. Whitley. Continuing with reference to the organizations with
which you cooperate in meetings and individually and whose litera-
ture you publish— I want to see what kind of company you keep,
Mr. Kuhn. . .
The Weckruf, the official publication of your organization, tor
May 26, 1938, page 5, column 5, contains an item from the Los
Angeles Bund paper concerning a meeting with 100 Italian Fascists,
attended by a man by the name of Ferri, who spoke to the organiza-
tions of the bund, and at the close of the meeting there were three
cheers for Hitler and three for Mussolini.
That comes from the item in the paper concerning that meeting.
Do you know anything about that meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. I wasn't there.
Mr. Whitley. Do you recall seeing the publication of such a meet-
ing?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall that.
Mr. Whitley. If you had seen it, would you have objected?
Mr. Kuhn. I would have objected, of course ; you are darn right I
would.
Mr. Whitley. In your official organ, the Weckruf, under date of
May 19, 1938, page 4, is printed an article in German, stating that
General Moseley has advocated sterilizing all political refugees. Do
you recall that article?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; I recall that.
Mr. Whitley. Why was that printed in German and not in Eng-
lish?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know any special reason why it was. If it was
Moseley, it should have been printed in English.
Mr. Starnes. Do you subscribe to the theory that refugees should
be sterilized?
Mr. Kuhn. Well no, I do not think such a thing I ever harbored
yet.
Mr. Starnes. Do you think that is right?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not think so.
Mr. Starnes. Then you think it is wrong?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And you do not subscribe to it?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. I am glad to hear you say that, because you were a
political refugee yourself.
Mr. Kuhn. You are a Congressman, of course, and I have to admit
you are a good one, but you made a wrong statement, but I did not
say I was a political refugee ; I said I was a refugee.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3797
Mr. Stabnes. A refugee?
Mr. Kuhn. But not a political refugee. We did not have any-
work there, or food. You would not know what that means but I
still do.
Mr. Thomas. Now, Mr. Kuhn, you referred to this statement [indi-
cating paper] here two or three times today. Have you personally
checked up to find out whether this is authentic?
Mr. Kuhn. You are darn right I checked up ; you are darned right
I did. I could give you a lot of evidence on that.
Mr. Thomas. And you really believe that that picture there that
shows on this was what actually took place?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Where is this cam]) No. 2?
Mr. Kuhn. Camp No. 2 is located in the northern part of Penn-
sylvania.
Mr. Thomas. In what town?
Mr. Kuhn. In the northern part. I don't know what town or what
county it is. It is up there on that Highway 17. I was there myself.
I cannot say that that picture is identical; I cannot say that.
Mr. Thomas. You don't know whether it is true, then ?
Mr. Kuhn. I saw something like that.
Mr. Thomas. Yes; but you don't know that they have got boys up
there in uniforms like this ?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know — I know it, yes ; because I saw it.
Mr. Thomas. You know thev have got them up there in uniforms
like this?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. What are these — cutlasses that are on them there?
Mr. Kuhn. Kind of knives, long ones, you know; brush knives, or
something like that.
Mr. Thomas. You have information in regard to this camp ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. All the information you have in regard to this camp,
will you please turn over to this committee ?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I would like to do it.
The Chairman. Let him tell us now what the information is.
Mr. Thomas. Well, tell us about this camp, if you have made an
examination of it and are familiar with it?
Mr. Kuhn. I did not make the examination. Of course, as a mere
man. I could not make an examination there; but because of the
visit
Mr. Thomas. You have referred to this pamphlet two or three
times. Suppose you tell us all about it. I think the committee would
be interested in this.
Mr. Kuhn. Well. I was up there and saw that.
The Chairman. Saw what?
Mr. Kuhn. Saw them exercising in uniforms similar to the uni-
forms like you see in this picture.
I The Chairman. Where is that camp?
Mr. Kuhn. That is on Highway 17, located on Highway 17.
The Chairman. Near what town?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know, but I can give you that information.
94931— 39— vol. 6 7
3798 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Thomas. They were forming this army up there; that is the
sense of the pamphlet?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. That they were forming an army?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I saw them around in formation; I saw around
100—80 to 100.
The Chairman. Yon saw that yourself?
Mr. Kuhn. I saw that myself.
The Chairman. Yon saw the knives and the uniforms?
Mr. Kuhn. I saw the knives and uniforms similar to that. I
cannot say they had guns in their hands; I don't know if they were
real guns; I was not that close; I don't know whether they were
wooden guns; I could not make that statement, but it looked like
a gun.
Mr. Mason. Is it not true that these are brush knives and, ac-
cording to that leaflet, they are training them for farming, settlement
purposes, and so forth?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Mason. And it states there that in this hemisphere there
shall be a colony formed whereby these people can go there and
instruct their refugees in farm operations, and so forth?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Mason. That is the real substance of it ?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mr. Thomas. Do you think it would be wise to turn that over
to the committee?
The Chairman. He says yes, he will do it. But what was your
implication — that there was some sort of conspiracy about the thing ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I went up there on purpose. I got this pam-
phlet
The Chairman. What is there about it that is wrong? They were
duly admitted to the country, were they not?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know.
The Chairman. What was there that was wrong?
Mr. Kuhn. They had uniforms.
The Chairman. Well, your bunch have uniforms, too.
Mr. Kuhn. They have arms, and it is all right; if you think it
is, it is entirely up to you.
The Chairman. We are trying to find out from you. We do not
know anything about it. We want to know what it is about. You
said a while ago they were brush knives.
Mr. Kuhn. I said they looked like it. There were about 80 to 100
men I saw in there marching.
Mr. Mason. If you will read that right there, you will get the
substance of it.
Mr. Thomas. He referred to it two or three times as if it was
wrong.
Mr. Kuhn. It is up to you to find out.
The Chairman. This is what it says here:
Service will include opening up ;i Large unoccupied territory to settlement and
civilization, police and border patrol duty, farming, instructon, mad building.
Volunteers who pass physical fitness requirements will receive free training in
agriculture, engineering, transportation, aviation, seamanship, and military de-
fence. In the new Jewish stale, each soldier-settler will be given a house and 4
acres of land for life in accordance with the Nai Juda program.
UN-A.MKKK JAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3799
Do you know who wrote this program ?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't.
The Chairman.. You dort'1 know anything about the authenticity
of the program?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't.
The Chairman. You do not know whether it is true?
Mr. Kuhn. I say it is true, because I saw it.
The Chairman. All you saw was people out there in uniforms,
with brush knives?
Mr. Kuhn. In uniforms and brush knives, and exercising.
Mr. Thomas. And you cannot tell us where the camp is located?
Mr. Kuhn. I can; I can, exactly; but, offhand, no.
Mr. Thomas. Will you supply that?
Mr. Kuhn. I will give it to you.
The Chairman. You give it to us and we will bring it out, the
same as with your form of organization.
Mr. Starnes. How many O. D. men do you have in your organiza-
tion, Mr. Kuhn?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, about two or three thousand — 4,000 or 5,000.
Mr. Starnes. Is the most of your organization composed of men,
or women, or both?
Mr. Kuhn. Both.
Mr. Starnes. Do any children take any sort of obligation, or any-
thing like that ?
Mr. Kuhn. Xo; not children.
Mr. Starnes. The adult members do, of course?
Mr. Kuhn. What?
Mr. Starnes. The adult members, that is, the grown-ups; they do?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. They take an obligation?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. What is the obligation they assume?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, you saw the application blank. That is all.
Mr. Starnes. Is that all they take?
Mr. Kuhn. That is all there is.
Mr. Starnes. You do not have any initiation ceremony or any-
thing like that following your check on them?
Mr. Kuhn. Xo.
Mr. Starnes. When you take their application blank, you do not
immediately accept them to membership, do you?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. You make a check on their background, as to their
character, and so forth?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Then, after that, what do you do?
Mr. Kuhn. We card them and send them out to the local unit
where they come from.
Mr. Starnes. Do they go to the local unit, then, to some sort of
initiation ceremony, fellowship meeting, and so forth?
Mr. Kuhn. Then they go to the membership meeting.
Mr. Starnes. Then they go to the membership meeting. What
takes place at that membership meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. The local leader of the group calls them to the front
and asks for new members that are trying to join the bund, and if
3800 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
somebody don't object, somebody who knows about them, then he
declares them as members.
Mr. Starnes. Do you have some sort of ceremony, or obligation
there that they take?
Mr. Kuhn. No, not at all.
Mr. Starnes. No pledge is made?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Either written, or oral?
Mr. Kuhn. No. You know, there is a court decision on that today,
the Supreme Court of the State of New York.
Mr. Starnes. How long do you have to be a member of the bund
before you become an O. D. man?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, 4, 5, or 6 months.
Mr. Starnes. About 6 months; is not that the usual training
period, and then the}^ advance out of that class, if they are found
worthy ?
Mr. Kuhn. If they want to. It is absolutely voluntary.
Mr. Starnes. I see. How are the leaders for these groups chosen?
Mr. Kuhn. They are appointed.
Mr. Starnes. Who appoints them?
Mr. Kuhn. The local unit leader.
Mr. Starnes. The local unit leader — on what authority.
Mr. Kuhn. He appoints his officers.
Mr. Starnes. On what authority?
Mr. Kuhn. His authority as local unit leader.
Mr. Starnes. Who gives that authority — the national convention,
or do you give it to him?
Mr. Kuhn. I give it to him.
Mr. Starnes. You give it to him?
Mr. Kuhn. Fifty percent; the other 50 percent, the members
have to give it.
Mr. Starnes. What are the requisites?
Mr. Kuhn. What are what?
Mr. Starnes. What are the essential elements necessary to qualify
in order to be a leader of that O. D. division ?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, he has to be a member in good standing. That
is about all.
Mr. Starnes. What else?
Mr. Kuhn. Nothing else.
Mr. Starnes. Who gives them their marching orders, training, etc. ?
Mr. Kuhn. The master of training and marching orders gives them
to the man at the head of the group.
Mr. Starnes. And he, of course, has to have some military training
or rudimentary knowledge of military training, before he can impart
it to the members?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, he has to show them how to stand at attention,
of course.
Mr. Starnes. And that is not the only thing they have to do —
stand at attention. Don't they have to march, in marching forma-
tion ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And they have other formations?
Mr. Kuhn. No other formations.
he
UN-AMBRIGAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3801
Mr. Starnes. Who gives them instructions in that?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, there is one instruction out once and forever;
there is a little hook out which gives all the instructions, and that must
be final.
Mr. Starnks. What is that — a kind of manual, something similar
or comparable to the drill manual?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. It is just a little book which gives all the com-
ma m!-. and everything in there.
Mr. Staenes. I see. Well, this man. then, of necessity must have
had some basic military training; is not that true?
Mr. Kuhn. No; no.
The Chairman. You do not have a good bit of the members,
though, who were in the war?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, yes.
The Chairman. Who would understand military training?
Mr. Ktjhn. Oh, yes; sure.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, does the German-American Bund have
book shops or book stores in various places ?
Mr. Kuhn. They have only one book shop, and that is in
Los Angeles.
Mr. Whitley. That is called the Aryan ?
Mr. Kuhn. The Aryan book store ; yes sir.
Mr. Whitley. Does that book store handle literature put out by
Pelley, Edmondson, and True?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. We handle different literature; I can-
not tell you exactly the way it is handled.
Mr. Whitley. But, as president of the bund, you would not ob-
ject to them handling that, provided they do ?
Mr. Kuhn. Not so far as thej^ come from Bedford pupils, certainly
not.
Mr. Whitley. Would you object to Pelley?s literature?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I would.
Mr. Whitley. You would?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes: I would.
Mr. Whitley. You have formed that opinion since you invited
him to speak in Madison Square Garden with Father Coughlin,
and he declined the invitation?
Mr. Kuhn. No: from my own opinion of long-time standing.
Mr. Whitley. Have you or any of your associates had dealings
with Mr. Donald Shea, president or head of the National Gentile
League and American Vigilantes?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Has he ever spoken to the headquarters, or any
groups ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; he has.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, he spoke at Camp Nordland,
N. J., on September 5, 1937, I believe \
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I think that is correct.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever, and on how many occasions have
3Tou invited Father Coughlin to address the bund, or contribute
articles ?
Mr. Kuhn. I, personally, only remember Madison Square Garden.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether any unit leaders have?
3802 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever, in your official publication, Weck-
ruf, published any articles with reference to Father Couglin?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, yes.
Mr. Whitley. Reprints of his articles?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever published any articles praising or
defending him?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. There is one here which I have a copy of now.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, in your publication of Jan-
uary 26, 1939, you had two articles, page 1, column 1, and page 3,
column 3, I believe, with reference to praising and defending Father
Coughlin.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. How about Mr. H. D. Kissinger, of Kansas City;
have you ever reprinted any of his material ?
Mr. Kuhn. Who?
Mr. Whitley. Mr. H. D. Kissinger, of Kansas City.
Mr. Kuhn. I don't recall; it might be.
Mr. AVhitley. In Weckruf, dated February 9, 1939, page 4, col-
umn 2, there is a little article by Mr. Kissinger, of Kansas City.
Have you ever had any dealings, Mr. Kuhn. with Mr. Henry D.
Allen, of Pasadena, Calif.?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. No dealings, as far as you know: at least the bund
has never had any dealings with him?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I personally never have had.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know or have you had any dealings or rela-
tions with Mr. Charles 13. Hudson, of Omaha, Nebr.?
Mr. Kuhn. No; not personally.
Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with the publication, "America
in Danger" '.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You are familiar with that?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Have you, or any of your subordinates ever had
any dealings with the Gold Shirt organization?
Air. Kuhn. In Mexico?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. It is possible that some of your district leaders
might have had such dealings, without your knowledge?
Mr. Kuhn. It must be absolutely without my knowledge.
Mr. Whitley. Have you had any dealings with Mr. J. H. Peyton,
of Beverly Hills, Calif., who puts out a publication known as "Amer-
ican-Ranger" ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I have not. I know his publication.
Mr. Whitley. You know his publication?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Does he send it to you ?
.Mr. Kuhn. Yes; we get some of his articles.
Mr. Whitley. Have you had any reprints in Weckruff from that
publication?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know; I could not recall.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3803
Mr. Whitley. Not from your persona] knowledge, but you might
have?
Air. KriiN. We might have; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Have you had any dealings with Mr. Kurt Mertig,
of New York City?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. AVho is head of the Citizens' Protective League?
Air. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know him?
Air. Kuhn. I know him; yes.
Air. Wiiitlky. What has been the nature of that relationship —
just social (
Mr. Kuhn. You mean Mertig?
Air. Whitley. Mertig; yes.
Air. Kuhn. Nothing.
Mr. Whitley. You know him?
Mr. Kuhn. I know him; yes.
Mr. Whitley. What are your relations with Victor Cherep-Spiri-
dovich, No. 9 Sheriff Street, New York City, who is connected with
organizations known as "Intelligence"; "American Tribunal," and
'Order of the Knights of Saint John of Jerusalem"? Are you
acquainted with him, or with those groups?
Air. Kuhn. No.
Air. Whitley. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Leslie Fry of Glen-
dale, Calif.?
Mr. Kuhn. No. I have heard about her, but never met her.
Mr. Whitley. Have you had any dealings with her, or with her
organization "Militant Christian Patriots" or "Christian Free
Press"?
Mr. Kuhn. We did not, but I think the West coast did at that
time.
Mr. Whitley. You have had dealings out there?
Mr. Kuhn. I think so.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether she attended any meetings
out there at the bund headquarters in Los Angeles?
Air. Kuhn. I don't know.
Air. Whitley. Or ever held any convention out there?
Air. Kuhn. A long time ago she was in New York, but she did
not come and see me.
Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with the German Library of
Information, at 17 Battery Place, New York?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know anything about it ?
Mr. Kuhn. I know about it.
Mr. Whitley. What is the nature of that organization?
Mr. Kuhn. I could not tell you.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know?
Mr. Kuhn. I never was down there.
Mr. Whitley. Have vou got anvone connected with it?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. The German- American Vocational League, 21 East
Seventv-fifth Street, New Y^ork City?
Mr. Kuhn. That is Mertig, isn't it?
3804 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Mertig is the Citizens' Protective League. Is this
another organization of his?
Mr. Kuhn. I think so. I think that is Sonnes.
Mr. Whitley. Have you had any contacts with officials or mem-
bers of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Kuhn. Never; no, sir.
Mr. Whitley. None at all?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever published any of the material?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with Maj. Gen. George Van
Horn Moseley?
Mr. Kuhn. I met him once; yes.
Mr. Whitley. You met him once? Will you describe the cir-
cumstances of that meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, this was out there at a private house.
Mr. Whitley. Where?
Mr. Kuhn. Jamaica.
Mr. Whitley. Whose house was that? ^
Mr. Kuhn. It was one of a Mrs. — I think it was Mrs. Uzzell.
Mr. Whiteley. Mrs. Rudyard Uzzell. What was the nature of the
meeting there ? &
Mr. Kuhn. Well, Mr. — General Moseley was speaking about the !
political situation in the United States. '00'
Mr. Whitley. He was the principal speaker? ;
Mr. Kuhn. He was the principal speaker.
Mr. Whitley. How many people were present at that meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, it was in a private home. There were about 40.
Mr. Whitley. About 40 people ? I
Mr. Kuhn. Or probably 50.
Mr. Whitley. Will you identify some of those present for us ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I could not.
Mr. Whitley. Either as to their connections
Mr. Kuhn. What?
Mr. Whitley. Do you know what their connections were? Were
they representing organizations?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. You did not know any of them?
Mr. Kuhn. Just from information.
Mr. Whitley. How did you happen to go to that meeting?
Mr. Kutin. Well, I was invited.
Mr. Whiteley. By Airs. Uzzell?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with her?
. Mr. Kuhn. I saw her twice.
Mr. Wiittley. You saw her once or twice? How long have you
known her?
Mr. Kuhn. About a year or a your and a half.
Mr. Whitley. And you knew her well enough so that she invited
you to come out and hear General Moseley speak?
Mr. Kutin. I suppose she knows me.
Mr. Whitley. I see. And why did she think you would be inter-
ested in being present at such a gathering?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know; you will have to ask Mrs. Uzzell.
n
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3805
Mr. "Whitley. Was there any discussion at that meeting with refer-
ence to organizing a national group?
Mr. Kni.N. No.
Mr. Whitley. To absorb or take in, or coordinate all of these
various groups?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not.
Mr. Whitley. There was no discussion of that kind ?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not.
The Chairman. Right there, let me ask: And you have never
been present at any meeting where that was discussed, the question of
a coalition ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. You have never been approached along that line?
Mr. Kuhn. It was the first time I was out there and after I heard
General Moselev talking, I went out West.
The Chairman. I mean at any other meeting, at any time, have
you ever been present where the question was discussed of having a
coalition of all of these groups?
Mr. Kuhn. Xo.
The Chairman. Have you ever been approached along that line
by anybody \
Mr. Kuhn. Xo.
The Chairman. You have never participated in any conference
looking to a coalition of all of these groups?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. You have never corresponded with anybody with
reference to such a plan?
Mr. Kuhn. Xo.
The Chairman. And have never received any letters from anyone?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. Proposing that all of these organizations get to-
gether in a confederation?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. And you never wrote anybody
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I think I did once. I was approached by some-
body, a man by the name of Warren Lee.
The Chairman. What organization was he in?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know which organization he had, but he ap-
proached me and, as I understand, he was trying to make a meeting
somewhere in the Middle West, and I went with him and that was
about all. He was to let me know later on when that meeting should
take place, but I never heard anything about it.
The Chairman. That is the only incident in which you have been
approached about getting all these groups together in one organiza-
tion ?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever, or any of your representatives, to
your knowledge, ever attended any meetings at which such a propo-
sition was discussed — any conventions or gatherings?
Mr. Kuhn. Xo.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, during my conversation with you pre-
viously, I believe you discussed at some length your plans with Mr.
Xewton Jenkins, of Chicago, with reference to forming a third party
3806 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
in the United States and taking in various groups and organizations
who might be sympathetic to that party?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. That was 4 years ago. Newton Jenkins was
trying or did register a new party, or a so-called surreptitious party.
I still was in Detroit, so it must have been in 1935. I even helped to
get it registered in Michigan.
Mr. Whitley. But you did not discuss the proposition?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I helped him.
Mr. Whitley. You helped him?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I helped him.
Mr. Whitley. You stated a- moment ago to the chairman that you
had never had any discussions with anyone.
Mr. Kuhn. I just talked about this, but Newton Jenkins is abso-
lutely out.
Mr. Whitley. He did not ask you if you were still considering it ;
he asked you if you ever had any discussion or made any plans with
anyone, with a view to a coalition of all of the groups.
Mr. Kuhn. We had not any plans made; he was just running for a
political position and he consulted me. It had nothing to do with
uniting different organizations. We discussed if he run for a certain
position, we, as the bund, would support him ; but he never tried to
make plans to make an organization which takes everybody in. Of
course, we believe in that.
Mr. Starnes. Mr. Kuhn, what was the menace; what did you and
he and the people consider the menace or the threat that made it
necessary for you to get together in forming a party, or taking united
action?
Mr. Kuhn. Which people?
Mr. Starnes. You and General Moseley and all these other people
you have been talking about here, that he has been asking you ques-
tions about — these various groups and societies ? What was the threat
you saw or felt made it necessary to form this party to take in all
these organizations?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, all these organizations have as their main pur-
pose to fight off the Marxist movement and are united in that position,
as I made in this public statement clear and, if you don't mind, I will
give you that statement, too ; and as to this organization, so far as the
German-American Bund is concerned, we never try or even think of it
as reaching a hold on the United States. All we think of is the same
as the Christian front or Christian movement is formed, the German-
American Bund joins them, and out of the different American or-
ganizations, we are always so handicapped, and if a man comes and
leads the country, then we might follow him.
Mr. Whitley. In the fight against Marxism?
Mr. Kuhn. I would like to state very clear that was never talked
about, so far as General Moseley was concerned. I saw him once and
I heard him talk and I admired him, and I think he is a man of tre-
mendous knowledge, and he is a man that is absolutely seeing the
facts, and seeing the danger which the United States is in. But there
was never talked about that he should be the leader of different or-
ganizations.
Mr. Whitley. I am not talking so much about leadership as I am
the thing which caused you all to get together.
party,
I to
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3807
Mr. Ki in. Let me explain with an example. For instance, right
now there are different Christian fronts, yon know. The Christian
front is splitting, and il has split five times now. One is the Cru-
saders, one the Mobilizers, and then the American Scholars, and what-
ever the name may be, and the idea is if one is to take a strong Ameri-
can organization position, we of the German-American Bund would
enter in that organization, and that would be the end of the German-
American Bund as a whole organization, because we would look for it
in other organization units.
Mr. Whitley. And your purpose would be to fight Marxism?
Mr. Kuhx. Marxism, and all that belongs to it.
The Chairman. Right there, when you say "all that belongs to it,"'
yon mean yon would fight any movement that originated with the
teachings of Karl Marx, or that was founded upon those teachings?
Mr. Kuhx. Yes.
The Chairman. And that would include socialism. Mould it not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. And that would include the socialistic government
in Germany, would it not '.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes: or any other government; because it was really
in the United State-.
The Chairman. If von are going to fiirht everything that origi-
nated from Karl Marx and are going to fight the socialistic move-
ment just as well as the Communist movement, you would be just as
much opposed to the German socialistic government as you would
be to the Russian Communist government, would you not?
Mr. Kuhx*. Yes ; the Communists and any other system
The Chairman. But you said you would fight the Socialists just
the same as the Communists, would you not?
Mr. Kuhn. The Socialists, yes; as long as it was a Marxistic
movement.
The Chairman. And you recognize that socialism came from
Marx ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; absolutely.
The Chairman. And, as a matter of fact, the Communists and
Socialists were all together for a long time, were they not, until they
split into hostile camps?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; that is right.
The Chairman. So that you would be in duty bound, under your
statement just then, to oppose socialism?
Mr. Kuhn. All of the Marxistic movements.
The Chairman. Which includes socialism?
Mr. Kuhn. Which includes socialism.
The Chairman. And all of the socialistic movements?
Mr. Kuhn. And all of the socialistic movements.
The Chairman. Which would place you, absolutely of necessity,
to oppose the present German scheme of government?
Mr. Kuhn. In the first place, it has nothing to do with it; in the
second place, if I understand right, we have not a communistic or
socialistic government. I may be wrong; you know more about Ger-
many than I profess to know, but we have a national socialistic
government.
The Chairman. But it is a socialistic movement?
Mr. Kuhn. A national socialistic movement.
3808 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. You make a difference between a national and an
international socialistic movement?
Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Dies, it has an entirely different philosophy.
The Chairman. But both the national and the international social-
istic movement originated from the one.
Mr. Kuhn. That is entirely news to me.
Mr. Starnes. One is a national movement; the other is an inter-
national movement; that is what you are distinguishing between? Is
that right?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not.
The Chairman. Then you do not classify the German and the Nazi
movement as a socialistic movement?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not.
The Chairman. HaveVou had occasion to read the first platform of
the first party in Germany, and what it proposed to do?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. You have read the platform upon which they went
into power?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. And, from that platform, you say that is not a so-
cialistic movement?
Mr. Kuhn. Not a socialistic movement; absolutely not. It is a
national socialistic movement.
The Chairman. Well, a national socialistic movement?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. The only difference between a national and inter-
national socialistic movement is the boundary line; one adheres
strictly to the boundary line
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no.
The Chairman. The other makes it an international movement; is
not that right ?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no; absolutely not.
Mr. "Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, in" connection with your answer to the
chairman a moment ago. that you had never discussed consolidating
all of these movements into one big organization, did you or any of
your representatives attend a convention in Kansas City in August
1937 called the "American Christian Conference"?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; they was not there.
Mr. Whitley. You did not have a representative there?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; I did not have a representative there.
Mr. AViiitley. I see.
The Chairman. If I may complete my thought : I notice here, in
this pamphlet, and I presume you are responsible for this pamphlet,
Which Way America?— vou are responsible for that; you wrote it?
You say in this pamphlet, for instance, "Freedom for truth and
decency on the radio, screen, and stage, and the press, pulpit, schools,
and courts." That is almost verbatim the language of the Workers
Party in Germany in their platform. You say you have read that
platform ?
Mr. Kuhn. Years ago— 15 or 20 years ago.
The Chairman. Is not that what they emphasize, or is not that
one of their obiectives, decency, freedom, and so forth?
Mr. Kuhn. Do you not emphasize it?
The Chairman. Is that the fact? Is that one of the things they
emphasize — decency ?
IN-AMERICAN PR01'A(iA.\l»A ACTIVITIES 3809
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know enough about the platform to say.
We do.
The Chairman. You say here further, the "maintenance of the
Aryan Christian culture and political system built by the founding
fathers." Was not Aryan culture one of the main props of the Nazi
program i
Mr. Kuhn. That may be (rue.
The Chairman. You said you read the program. Do you know
that is their language, "Aryan culture"? Do you not know that it
was the program of Hitler, and that it is German propaganda? Is
that not what Hitler said all the way through?
Mr. Kuhn. What Mr. Hitler does, I do not know.
The Chairman. You said you had read the platform ?
Mr. Starnes. You are ready to join any movement or group in this
country that is anti-Marxian ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. That will fight against communism?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. You are just as willing to join any movement against
nazism ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; because I am against nazism here. National
socialism is something for Germany, but it would not fit here be-
cause the conditions are entirely different, I have told you that over
and over again.
Mr. Starnes. Do you see anything different there in principle?
Do you make any distinction or difference in principle between na-
tional socialism in Germany and the type of government you would
accord the people of this country through a third political party?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; absolutely, of course.
Mr. Starnes. What is the difference?
Air. Kuhn. As I said, the philosophy of national socialism is such
that it is not possible to emphasize, or to bring in the United States,
because we have entirely different problems to deal with from those in
Germany or Kussia.
Mr. Starnes. What about the threat of that philosophy ov move-
ment ?
Mr. Kuhn. There is not any philosophy about that. We do not
have any political philosophy. We have parties, but do not have
political philosophies. The Marxian idea is a philosophy.
Mr. Starnes. Who is Walter Kappe?
Mr. Kuhn. He was a man in our organization years ago.
Mr Starnes. I believe you said a moment ago that you knew Fritz
Gissibl ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. An active former member of the Friends of New
Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Air. Starnes. They were both former members of the Teutonic
Society ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. That society was succeeded by the Friends of New
Germany ?
Mr. Kuhn. It was not succeeded by it. It was a new organization
Mr Starnes. The Teutonic Society went out of existence, and the
imends of .Sew Germany came into existence?
'
3810 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Any way you want it.
Mr. Starnes. You said you were a member of the Friends of New
Germany ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. And Walter Kappe was also, as well as Fritz Gissibl?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. There is no longer any group known as the Friends
of New Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. You now have the German- American Bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. I noticed an article in your regular annual for 1937
by Walter Kappe, called the Fighting German. This article is pub-
lished in your magazine.
Mr. Kuhn. You must realize
Mr. Starnes (interposing). You are responsible for it?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. Look and see who is the editor of it.
Mr. Starnes. I do not know who the editor is.
Mr. Kuhn. Look and see who is the editor.
Mr. Starnes. It is a publication that is put out by your organiza-
tion ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; it is put out by Walter Kappe, and I threw
him out of our organization.
Mr. Starnes. His statement is this — that the Teutonic Society was
founded by him and Fritz Gissibl, and was later succeeded b}r the
Friends of New Germany.
Mr. Kuhn. You said that. I did not say that.
Mr. Starnes. That is the statement in this publication. Is the
statement true or untrue?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know.
Mr. Starnes. He is a member of your society, you say '.
Mr. Kuhn. He was not a member of the German -American Bund.
Mr. Starnes. The German-American Bund pul our two annuals, in
1936 and 1937?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. This is the 1937 annual.
Mr. Kuhn. That is not published by the bund. That is published
by Walter Kappe. That is his publication. • Mr,
Mr. Starnes. It carries your picture? Mac
Mr. Kuhn. I threw him out, I have told you. Mr."
Mr. Starnes. Was he speaking the truth or no! when he said that Mr.
the original German movement in this country, blown as the Teutonic
Society, was founded by Fritz Gissibl. and that it then later grew into,
or was translated into, the Friends of New Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. I was not a member then. I do not know.
Mr. Starnes. You were a member of the Friends of New Germany,
were you not ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know about the Teutonic Society.
Mr. Starnes. You know that the Friends of New Germany went
out of existence, and that the German-American Bund was organized?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. That was his own publication.
Mr. Starnes. I notice the statement quoted from the Dutch Abeit,
a Dutch labor paper, and the opening statement in (his article says
Mr.
Mr.:
Mr,
Mr. I
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 381 1
that since L937 the American Germans are strongly influenced by the
national socialistic order in the German Reich.
Mr. Kuhn. Thai is not my idea. I am not responsible for that.
Mr. Starnes. You are disclaiming any responsibility for this annual
put out by the German-American Bund '.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Including the statement about Mr. Hitler's great
accomplishments?
The Chairman. Over and above that, you will admit that you have
published articles praising the new Germany.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. YTou do not deny that.
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
The Chairman. Praising what Hitler had done for Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. Y"es, sir.
The Chairman. That was the objective of your articles?
Mr. Kuhn. Y"es, sir.
The Chairman. And they reflect your honest views?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So that, as a matter of fact, you are a great admirer
of Hitler and the new Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. I am an admirer of Hitler.
The Chairman. You feel that he has done a great job?
Mr. Kuhn. Y^es, sir.
The Chairman. Ytou have said that many times in the past ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And one purpose of the organization is to bring
that viewpoint to the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; I did not say that. I said to enlighten the
public. What you read in the paper is wrong. Y"ou read only one
side of the story.
The Chairman. That is, that our people may have the same view-
point with reference to the German Government and Hitler that you
have ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yres, sir. He has accomplished a great deal. When
Mr. Baruch returned from Russia, he said that it was a very much
better country to live in than the United States.
Mr. Starnes. Who owns and operates the Deutscher Weckruf
Beobachter ?
Mr. Kuhn. The A. V. Publishing Corporation.
Mr. Starnes. You are the head of the A. V. Publishing Co.?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. You are responsible for it?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. This paper was published in 1937.
Mr. Kuhn. I was not the head of it at that time.
Mr. Thomas. You said that you threw Kappe out of your organi-
zation. Why did you throw him out?
Mr. Kuhn. I could not have thrown him out of the organization,
because he was not a member. As soon as I was elected president
of the A. Y. Publishing Co., I got rid of him. It was because I did
not agree with him. In the first place, he was a German citizen; and
in the second place, he did a lot of things that I did not agree with.
3812 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Thomas. Because he did not agree with you, you threw him
out of the organization?
Mr. Kuhn. I thought he was preaching things that lie should not
concern himself with.
Mr. Thomas. What kind of things?
Mr. Kuhn. Things that you read. He was a German citizen, and
he was making political talks. He was not a citizen, and people
other than citizens should not talk about politics.
Mr. Thomas. You have made some statement that you claim was
made by Mr. Baruch. I think you said something about his com-
paring the United States with Russia. What was that statement?
Mi-rKuHN. I had some clippings. I took it from papers.
Mr. Thomas. What was it you saw?
Mr. Kuhn. It was there in' the papers. I have the clippings.
Mr. Thomas. What was the statement?
Mr. Kuhn. He had had an interview with Lenin, and he came
back praising it, and saying how wonderful the country was and
what the Communists in Russia had accomplished. He said it is
a real philosophy that has gone to the whole class.
Mr. Thomas. You said something about his comparison of con-
ditions there with those in the United States.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; he said that the conditions were better there
than in the United States.
Mr. Thomas. About what year did that article appear?
Mr. Kuhn. It was when he came back from a trip in 1937.
Mr. Thomas. In what paper did you see it?
Mr. Kuhn. It was in all the New York papers.
Mr. Thomas. And in what year did you say it was \
Mr. Kuhn. I think it was' in the beginning of 1938 or the fall
of 1937.
Mr. Whitley. Lenin died in 1924.
Mr. Kuhn. I meant Stalin. I said Lenin, but I meant Stalin.
Mr. Thomas. When you said Lenin you meant Stalin?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Will you recapitulate the four organizations that
are allied with or affiliated with the German-American Bund?
Mr. Kuhn. I did not say anybody was allied with us. I did not
say that we had any connection with anybody.
Mr. Starnes. You said you were the head of some sort of economic
organization in this country.
Mr. Kuhn. Do you mean those organizations?
Mr. Starnes. Yes.
The Chairman. You stated that you were the head of the German-
American Business League?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; the German-American Bund, the German-
American Business League, and the A. V. Publishing Co. Also the
A. V. Development Corporation.
Mr. Starnes. When was the German-American Bund organized?
Mr. Kuhn. In March 1936.
Mr. Starnes. What about the German-American Business League ?
Mr. Kuhn. It was organized in the fall of 1936.
Mr. Starnes. When was this development concern organized?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3813
Mr. Kuhn. It was organized about G or 7 months ago.
Mr. Starnes. When was the A. V. Publishing Co. organized?
Mr. Kuiin. It was organized in the late summer of 1937.
Mr. Starnes. You draw a salary from those four organizations?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. How many do you draw salaries from ?
Mr. Ktjhn. From the A. V. Development Co, $100; my salary
from the Bund of $100; and $100 from the Business League.
Mr. Starnes. You do not draw a salary from the A. V. Publishing
Co.?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Does it have any paid employees at all?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. How many?
Mr. Kuhn. Four.
Mr. Starnes. Mr. Chairman, I think that in view of the memory,
or convenient memory, of the witness with reference to some details
of these various organizations, due to lack of knowledge about cer-
tain details, which, of course, is understandable, it will be essential
to have some witnesses here who do know about certain details of
financial transactions of the bund and these other organizations. I
suggest that such witnesses be brought in, and that Mr. Kuhn give
us or furnish to the investigators at the earliest possible moment the
names of the various State unit leaders, with their addresses.
Frankly, I think that with so many organizations, all of them seem-
ing to have one central theme, they should be carefully checked.
Therefore, I move that what I have suggested be done.
The Chairman. If it is agreeable to the committee, Mr. Kuhn will
be instructed to deliver to the counsel of the committee the names
of the officers or individuals from whom we can get precise informa-
tion, so we can have in the record definite and exact information
with reference to all these matters. All of these things are matters
that should be definitely cleared up by somebody in the organization.
If it is agreeable to the committee, Mr. Kuhn is instructed to deliver
to counsel the names and addresses of those parties who can furnish
the information desired.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, it is very easy to get it. You only have to call
for it at the F. B. I. They have every name and every fact. We
were investigated by the G-men twice. You can get that from the
Department of Justice.
The Chairman. That was some time ago.
Mr. Ktjhn. No, sir; lately. We had it about 2 weeks ago, and
they are still investigating it. The F. B. I. has all the reports and
records. They worked on us for a long time. You have only to call
on them for what you want.
Mr. Starnes. Have they been investigating your organization
since this committee has undertaken the work?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; absolutely. You only have to go to the De-
partment of Justice, and they will give you everything. About 3
weeks ago the investigation was going on, and they were asking us
the same questions that you are asking us here. They were asking
questions about the Silver Shirts, and so forth.
940.".!— 39— vol. 6-
3814 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Thomas. You are not the only group we have been investigat-
ing that they have been investigating.
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know about that, but the F. B. I. lias investi-
gated us.
Mr. Starves. I asked for certain information about the finances.
Did they go into that?
Mr. Kuhn. Everything, down to the penny. If you will write to
the F. B. I., you would have everything you have asked.
Mr. Thomas. I think Mr. Whitley should get in touch with the
F. B. I. and get that information.
Mr. Mason. While I was at lunch, I was informed that the F. B. I.
had carried on this investigation, and that this information would
be available if we called for it.
The Chairman. This committee had an F. B. I. report before, but
it was a very incomplete report. It did not furnish definite informa-
tion about these matters.
Mr. Whitley. Insofar as financial statements or records of fi-
nancial transactions are concerned, unless the person who makes those
records is available to testify and explain them, just the figures will
not be revealing.
The Chairman. Suppose counsel be directed to call on the F. B. I.,
and find out what they have that we want in connection with all
these matters.
Mr. Starnes. My suggestion is that we get those records, because
the financial background here means the lifeblood of the organiza-
tion.
Mr. Whitley. Have your financial records been returned to vou?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Where are they?
Mr. Kuhn. In the office of Mr. Dewey.
Mr. Whitley. He had them. Does Mr. Hurlan have them?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. They have not been available for many months.
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Thomas. Did you not say that the F. B. I. knew about every
cent you took in, even within the last few weeks \
Mr. Kuhn. I said thai they have been investigating us. About 2
weeks ago they were investigating us.
Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether the F. B. I. has been investi-
gating other organizations, such as Communist organizations?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. The agent did not tell me that. I
have my idea about it, because they asked me about organizations
like the Silver Shirts.
Mr. Thomas. Did they ask any questions about Communists?
Mr. Kuhn. Not a question.
The Chairman. Counsel will get such information as he can from
the F. P>. I. Of course, after all, we are conducting our own in-
vestigation. We will resume with the testimony of this witness
tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.
(Whereupon the committee adjourned until tomorrow. Thursday,
August IT. 1939, at 10 a. m.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
thursday. august 17. 1939
House of Representatives,
Special Committee to Investigate
Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C.
The commit tee met at 10 a. m., in the caucus room, House Office
Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding.
Present : Mr. Ehea Whitley, counsel to committee.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order, please.
Again I ask the spectators to observe absolute quiet during the
progress of the hearing so we can hear the witness.
Let us resume, gentlemen.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, during your examination yesterday you
stated that you had not at any time had any discussion or conversa-
tion with any head of these various organizations with reference to
a consolidation of the organizations into one large organization.
You later qualified that by explaining your conversation with Mr.
Newton Jenkins, of Chicago, and the discussion with reference to
formulation of a third party, which didn't materialize. You stated
that the conference was held in Kansas City in 1937 or 1938 — August
20, 1937, that you were not present at that conference, and that
you did not have any representative present; is that correct?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. In your testimony taken in New York, Mr. Kuhn,
you stated very definitely you did have a representative at that con-
vention or conference in Kansas City. I will read from your testi-
mony, Mr. Kuhn, taken on March 27, 1939, in New York, from page
26. The question asked you is this :
Is it correct about the statement as made in here on page 110 that the Ger-
man-American Bund is seeking orders, or has sought to consolidate the Fascist
element in America into one great movement to which the bund is to lead.
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct that there was an idea to unite all of these —
you call them Fascist, we call them patriotic organizations. Oh, from certain
organizations came the idea to unite all these patriotic organizations in the
united front. But it didn't come through. There was one meeting held for
that reason in Kansas City, but I think it wasn't in the end of 1937 or the
beginning of 1938 — I don't recall — anyway over a year ago, there was a meet-
ing, and there were delegates of some 150 patriotic organizations to find out
some way how to get closer together and the idea was to set up a steady
delegation of all organizations to unite us but it didn't work out. It didn't
come from the German-American Bund. We just sent a delegate there but
we were not sponsors.
In view of this testimony, Mr. Kuhn, why do you now say the
German- American Bund did not have a representative at that con-
vention in Kansas City \
3815
"
3816 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. I told you yesterday as now, I made the statement
over and over again, there was a man by the name of Warren Lee;
Warren Lee was supposed to arrange that meeting in Kansas City,
and that meeting never took place. I stated that yesterday, the
fact that there was a convention, that a man by the name of Warren
Lee, who came into my office and approached me with the under-
standing to have about 150 other organizations, and to Ms statement I
will send delegates. I expected him to come back in a few days.
He told me there would be a meeting held in Kansas City either at
the end or some time before August 1936 — it might have been the
beginning of 1936. And he was to let me know when exactly these
meetings will take place. That conversation was taken, but as I
told you yesterday I never heard from Warren Lee. And he men-
tioned that some certain of these organizations will be well known —
at the meeting, a well known, great American diplomat. He even
mentioned some names, which I don't recall.
Mr. Whitley. You don't remember the name of the person he
mentioned ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I don"t remember the name; there was different
names.
Mr. Whitley. Didn't you tell me in New York that you did re-
member but you preferred not to mention the name?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. And I did not press you at the time. I would like
to know now who the name of that man was.
Mr. Kuhn. I don't recall his name. There was quite a few names.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Was it General Moseley?
Mr. Kuhn. Not General Moseley; no.
Mr. Whitley. Was it George Deatherage?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. But, Mr. Kuhn, referring back again to your testi-
mony of yesterday in respect to my question whether you ever had
any discussion with any other groups or any individuals concerning
consolidation, and you said no.
Mr. Kuhn. I said with the exception of Warren Lee.
Mr. Whitley. You sa;d then you later admitted you had talked
with Newton Jenkins about it.
Mr. Kuhn. No; I didn't admit that; that is wrong; I didn't
admit that. What I talked with Warren Lee was something about
a third party; the third party which he formed, about forming a
third party, in Michigan, the State of Michigan.
Mr. Whitley. Jenkins was trying to form a third party?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was Warren Lee working with him, and both try-
ing to form a third party, was that it?
Mr. Kuhn. No; Warren Lee didn't do anything about forming a
third party; he didn't tell me that.
Mr. Whitley. But the fact remains, Mr. Kuhn, that you have con-
sidered and discussed the possibility of organizing or consolidating
all of these groups, which I call Fascists and you call patriotic,
into one greai organization that the bund was to head?
Mr. Kuhn. No; that is absolutely wrong.
The Chairman. Now, read his testimony again.
Mr. Whitley. I read his testimony before he gave his answer.
Dg»
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3817
The Chairman. We would like to know why 2 months ago he
testified to one set of facts and here today, after a certain interval,
he changed it. Read that part of the testimony again.
Mr. Whitley. The question is:
Is it correct about the statement as made in here on page 110 that the
German-American Bund is seeking orders or has sought to consolidate the
Fascist element in America into one great movement which the bund is to
lead?
And, the answer was:
That is correct ; there was an idea to unite all of these — you call them
Fascists; we call them patriotic organizations. Oh, from certain organizations
came the idea to unite all these patriotic organizations in the United Front.
The Chairman. You heard that?
Mr. Kuhn. That was correct.
The Chairman. The different organizations?
Mr. Kuhn. As I told you, the statement was made
The Chairman (interposing). You said in your testimony that
there were certain organizations
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). Well, I said Warren Lee was supposed
to organize the meeting. I don't know which he represented.
The Chairman. All right, go along with the reading.
Mr. Whitley (continuing).
But it didn't come through. There was one meeting held for that reason in
Kansas City but I think it wasn't until the end of 1937 or the beginning of
1938 — I don't recall — anyway over a year ago there was a meeting and there
were delegates of some 150 patriotic organizations.
The Chairman. Anyway there was a meeting.
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
The Chairman. And you now say that meeting never took place?
Mr. Kuhn. That was another meeting, when that meeting was.
That meeting took place a year ago; was told me — Warren Lee
talked about a meeting that was to take place.
The Chairman. Another meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. All right, but there never was a meeting that he
approached me about; I told him I would go there or if I could
not go I would send someone.
The Chairman. Are you in favor of a meeting of this kind?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, yes ; I am.
The Chairman. To consolidate them into one general organ-
ization?
Mr. Kuhn. And Ave work with the leaders as close as we can.
The Chairman. But didn't you say in that statement that you
wanted the bund to take the leadership?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. What was the statement in reference to that?
Mr. Kuhn. That was wrong; I said that yesterday and I state
it today.
The Chairman. How does that read ?
Mr. Whitley. I will read it again. The question was:
Is it correct about the statement as made in here on page 110 that the Ger-
man-American Bund is seeking orders or has sought to consolidate all of the
Fascist element in America into one great movement which the bund is to
lead?
3818 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
And the answer was :
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. There was an idea to unite all of these.
Mr. Kuhn. There was an idea but the bund wasn't to lead.
The Chairman. You said that, did you not?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct, that they tried to get together into one
organization, of course.
The Chairman. The way you answer the question it refers to the
bund and its leadership.
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. That is the way you answered the question.
Mr. Kuhn. But I say that is right, that they were trying to unite ;
not that the bund was to take the whole leadership.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, as a matter of fact, the meeting which
you referred to here is the American Christian Conference which was
held in Kansas City, August 20, 1937. at which time the American
Nationalist Confederation was organized, and at which convention
George Deatherage was elected president of the American Nationalist
Confederation.
Now, that is the Kansas City meeting you referred to in your
testimony here at New York.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitney. That is the one?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Anyway you didn't come along, but didn't the Ger-
man-American Bund send delegates there or say it would send dele-
gates or that you would be there in person as a delegate I
Mr. Kuhn. We had no delegate there; no.
Mr. Whitley. You had no delegates?
Mr. Kuhn. No; that is wrong. I told you, Mr. Warren Lee, if
that meeting takes place, of course, if I can I would come and if not
somebody else would be there.
Mr. Whitley. I see.
Mr. Kuhn. If a meeting takes place and I can I will be there.
Mr. Whitley. If the meeting took place.
Mr. Kuhn. That is the correct idea.
Mr. Whitley. You would send a delegate, and that meeting wasn't
held.
Mr. Kuhn. To send a delegate if the meeting took place.
Mr. Whitley. Just a second. This meeting had already taken
place; this meeting took place in August 1937.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. But your testimony was taken in March of this
year.
Mr. Kuhn. But it was in 1937 when I was approached, at the
end of 1937. that Mr. Warren Lee called that there should be a second
meeting and that second meeting never took place.
Mr. Whitley. Mi". Kuhn, in spite of your statement of yesterday
that you had never made any active effort or had any conversation
with reference to setting up a national organization which would be
composed of all of these groups, which you now qualify and say the
meeting did not take place
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). I told you if the meeting took place.
Mr. Whitley (continuing). And a delegate would be sent there?
IN -AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3819
Mr. Kuhx. If that meeting takes place they will be there.
Mi-. Whitley. What is the purpose of trying to unite all these
groups into a powerful third party in which the bund was to play
the lender (
Mr. Kuhn. I can't make a statement for each of the 100 organiza-
tions, for what the purpose of the whole organization is.
Mr. Whitley. Hut you have discussed the possibility of trying to
organize at some place, and are still trying to do so?
Mr. Kriix. Of course, we are trying to do so, but do not have any
definite plans. I told you the idea was to have a big organization, not
that the bund was necessary to head it.
Mr. Whitley. But you wanted a large one?
Mr. Kuhx. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. To take in all of these organizations?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. But it would be an organization which would sup-
port and further the program and plans of the bund?
Mr. Kuhx. To a certain extent, yes.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, with reference to the financial transac-
tions of the bund and its income, and its membership, in your
testimonv vesterdav you stated that the local unit leaders had the
authority to graduate the monthly dues depending upon the financial
condition of the various members; in other words, if a member was
unemployed
Mr. Kuhx (interposing). Correct.
Mr. Wthitley (continuing). He doesn't pay any dues?
Mr. Kuhn. As I said
Mr. Whitley (interposing). Just a minute. I just want to get it
clear ; I wanted to find out if that is correct.
Mr. Kuhx. Yes; correct.
Mr. Whitley. And for that reason you did not determine the exact
membership from the amount of dues?
Mr. Kuhx. Correct.
Mr. Whitley. Can you state approximately what the percentage
of those in the German-American Bund membership are on part-time
employment or are unemployed ?
Mr. Kuhx. No; I cannot any more. I used to be able to do that,
but since the record was destroyed I can't do it.
Mr. Whitley. But you do take into consideration the fact that
there are certain times and have been probably during the last 3 or 4
years always a certain number of bund members out of jobs ?
Mr. Kuhn. Of course.
Mr. Whitley. And probablv the average percentage; at least, a
certain number out of work. Does the bund make any provision for
taking care of those persons who are out of work and seeking work?
Mr. Kuhn. We try to get some jobs.
Mr. Whitley. Try to get jobs; and they do not have to pay dues?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. That is simply when they are out of work; do you
have a relief fund?
Mr. Kuhx. No ; we do not have a fund for relief.
Mr. Whitley. That is the amount of the relief?
Mr. Kuhx. Yes; and the idea is to give them relief
3820 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. You do know that as American citizens they are
entitled to relief?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know if the bund has taken up any collec-
tions or made any contributions to take care of the unemployed mem-
bers who are on relief and out of jobs?
Mr. Kuhn. No. As I stated, the woman's auxiliary, which they
help for charity.
Mr. Whitley. I see.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; to help, not to pay salaries but to help with a
family in real need ; to help tliem.
Mr. Whitley. I see. But even though you have a great many
members, or a considerable number of your members are constantly
out of employment and on relief you still take up, from your mem-
bers, a contribution which was turned over to Hitler to take care of
his unemployed?
Mr. Kuhn. We don't do that.
Mr. Whitley. For his winter relief.
Mr. Kuhn. We didn't do that. That was
Mr. Whitley (continuing). Why didn't you turn that $3,000 over
to your own unemployed, in your organization, so the Government
would not have to take care of them, the American Government would
not have to?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, wait — that was about 1936, and that was having
nothing to do with the bund; I took up the collection, and if you
take up a collection for a certain purpose it has to be used for that
purpose.
Mr. Whitley. You called for contributions, didn't you? People
would not have sent in funds to take care of some purpose unless you
had sent out a call. You sent the call.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you sent it out to the bund members?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether the bund members who were
actually out of employment and on relief contributed to that fund?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know; perhaps, yes.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, some of the money which the
United States Government was giving them for relief they used to
contribute to a fund which was taken over and delivered to Hitler
for his winter relief.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. That is absolutely voluntary. They did not
have to erive if they did not want to.
Mr. Whitley. Is that in keeping with the American ideals and
principles of the German-American Bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I think it is. if you can stand on the streets
of New York and subways, and get a collection for the Loyalists in
Spain, or even for the Chinese — there is nothing wrong about, I
suppose.
Mr. Whitley. That is not turned over to the head of the Govern-
ment.
Mr. Kuhn. Most of them
Mr. Whitley (interposing). That is administered over there
through a relief organization or an agency.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, they turn it over to a particular country.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3821
Mr. Whitley. The fact remains, Mr. Kuhn, that you called upon
the bund membership to make contributions to a fund and some of
the contributions no doubt came from unemployed members.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; doubtless.
Mr. Whitley. Who were on reliefs
Mr. Kuhn. That contribution which they made was voluntary
Mr. Whitley. That was money furnished them by the United
States Government which they contributed, even in small
amounts
Mr. Ktjhn (interposing). I think your conclusion is wrong.
Mr. Whitley. The principle is just the same. They contributed
money which was being paid to them by the United States Govern-
ment for relief, which fund you gave to Mr. Hitler.
Mr. Kuhn. I beg your pardon. You made that statement. How
are you going to prove that ?
Mr. Thomas. I think the witness should be more responsive to
the questions, and I think he should just answer questions and not
be allowed to make speeches.
The Chairman. The witness is instructed to be responsive and
to answer questions that are addressed to him.
Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Chairman, I would like to know if the questions
can be put in a way they will be fair. I want fair questions.
The Chairman. The counsel will attend to that.
Mr. Whitley. How was that money taken over, Mr. Kuhn, in
gold, silver, or currency?
Mr. Kuhn. It was in paper.
Mr. Whitley. In paper?
Mr. Kuhn. Paper money.
Mr. Whitley. Currency. Hundred-dollar or thousand-dollar bills?
Mr. Kuhn. It was hundred-dollar bills.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Do you remember how the contributions were
made ; whether there were a large number of contributors to that
fund ?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know ; a few thousand.
Mr. Whitley. A few thousand?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. I see. And that was delivered by you personally,
in currency, to Mr. Hitler ?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Whitley. That was after lie had reviewed the parade which the
German-American Bund and the storm troops had put on in Berlin?
Mr. Kuhn. Xot Berlin — I can't answer that question ; I can't an-
swer that question. There were no storm troops.
Mr. Whitley. Well, the O. D. troops?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. They had a parade and you were there
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). With the permission of the American
Ambassador in Berlin.
Mr. Whitley. With what?
Mr. Kuhn. With the permission of the American Ambassador, Mr.
Dodd.
Mr. Whitley. And you delivered that money to Mr. Hitler, in
person, to use for his winter relief ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
3822 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. And that money came from your organization, and
you have said you have alwaj^s had, during the last several years,
many unemployed
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). That is not correct.
Mr. Whitley (continuing). And it came from your members.
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). That is not correct.
Mr. Whitley. Where did it come from?
Mr. Kuhn. From private individuals.
Mr. Whitley. You mean private individuals in the organization?
Mr. Kuhn. That is not correct.
Mr. Whitley. You said how it happened; that you sent out the
call.
Mr. Kuhn. I did.
Mr. Whitley. You did ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you sent it out to the members ; you sent it out
to the bund's membership ; did you not ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. All right. And it came in response to your call?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you had several thousand contributors?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know what percentage of them were bund
members ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. You would assume a considerable number of them
were ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You would?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you also did state that at that time there were
unemployed members in the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Whitley. Why didn't you take the $3,000 to take care of the
unemployed in your own organization?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is my business.
Mr. Whitley. I see. You preferred to take it over to help Mr.
Hitler?
Mr. Kuhn. That is your conclusion ; you make the statement ; how
arc you going to prove it?
Air. Thomas. I think the witness should be made to answer the
questions.
The Chairman. The witness has been warned two or three times
to make his answers responsive. Just answer the questions.
Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Chairman, I can't
The Chairman (continuing). We are conducting an investigation.
I do not want to have any personal argument with the witness, but
answer the questions the counsel asks you. and if there is any ex-
planation you would like to make, any pertinent explanation, address
your request to the Chair.
Mi-. Kuhn. But if counsel puts his questions with wrong conclu-
sions I have to correct them.
Mr. Whitley. I am asking you whether you made the statement
and whether the statements are true.
I'X-AMKKICAN IIMI'ACANDA ACTIVITIES 3823
Mi'. Ki iin. Vou said it was the organisation.
Mr. Whitley. Bui you said they were entitled to relied' as Ameri-
can citizens.
Mr. Kuiin. But hadn't contributed those funds.
Mr. Whitley. I don't say they did, but I say this, that being Amer-
ican citizens they were entitled to relief from this Government and
no doubt at the same time you were calling for collections from
your membership, and you took the money over to the German Gov-
ernment for relief, to Mr. Hitler. It amounts to the same thing. Is
that your idea that the German-American Bund's interests is for the
host interest of this country?
Mr. Kuhn. Is that a question or is that a speech?
Mr. Whitley. That is a question; that is what you testified to yes-
terday or, that the bund was an American political party, that it was
concerned with the best interests of this United States. That is what
you testified to, didn't you ?
The Chairman. Answer the question.
Mr. Whitley. Is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I testified.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. And that is a statement I made, merely re-
flecting your own statement.
Mr. Kuhn. May I give an explanation?
Mr. Whitley. Yes; if you want to.
Mr. Kuhn. If you contribute to some fund, some certain thing, if
a man contributes a fund for a certain purpose, that money has to
be used for that purpose. So, I see that it goes to that purpose for
which they wanted to give it.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Kuhn. And that is absolutely right, is it not?
Mr. Whitley. That is all well. In other words, there was a cer-
tain amount contributed from members and some who were not.
Mr. Kuhn. As I say, a lot of it was contributed from sources, per-
sons who were not members of the bund.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. Mr. Kuhn, you testified yesterday that your
brother. Max Kuhn, was a judge on the supreme court in Berlin.
How many judges sit on that court in Berlin?
Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Chairman, may I
The Chairman. Can you answer the question \ Just answer that
question.
Mr. Kuhn. But I would like to have ;i statement from the Chair.
The Chairman. With reference to what?
Mr. Kuhn. Do I have to answer for tilings which belong in Ger-
many and not in the United States?
The Chairman. You have to answer questions that pertain to this
inquiry, the purpose of which is to ascertain what connection, if any,
this organization has with the German Government.
Mr. Kuhn. What does its American activities have to do with how
many judges there are on the Berlin Supreme Court?
Mr. Whitley. I want to know how important the position which
your brother holds is in the German Government.
Mr. Kuhn. What does that have to do with it?
The Chairman. Can you answer the question?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I can.
3824 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Then answer the question.
Mr. Kuhn. Must I?
The Chairman. Answer the question.
Mr. Kuhn. To the best of my knowledge the supreme court has
nine judges.
Mr. Whiti ey. Nine judges?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That is the Supreme Court in Germany ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Compares to our own Supreme Court in this
country?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. The highest court ?
Mr. Kuhn. The highest court in Germany.
Mr. Whitley. And your brother is one of the nine judges?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. How long has he occupied that position?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I do not know correctly.
Mr. Whitley. Approximately ? I have an idea you know when he
was appointed and probably would remember with a great deal of
pride.
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. Was it before or since the advent of Hitler to
power in Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. He was — of course, he was judge before; the high post
was later on, I think.
Mr. Whitley. He was not judge of the Supreme Court then?
Mr. Kuhn. He was judge of the Appeals Division before that —
the State supreme court.
Mr. Whitley. That is a State court, and he was appointed to the
Supreme Court after Mr. Hitler came to power?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did the fact he occupied that position have any-
thing to do with your organization of the bund in this country,
or the fact you are the head of that organization?
Mr. Kuhn. That is what tickled us; that is what tickled us.
The Chairman. Answer the question. It is not for you to make
a conclusion. He has asked you a question and you can answer
"yes" or "no."
Mr. Kuhn. I ask you to get fair questions here. What lias any-
thing in Germany to do with the United States?
The Chairman. Answer the question, if you can; if you cannot,
say "I don't know."
Mr. Kuhn. I am in the Department of Justice, where they went
through that.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Whitley.
Mi-. Whitley. There was no connection, you stated
Mr. Kuhn. I made on;1 statement now, and that is enough, so far
as my brother is concerned. I don't get
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, this witness is unruly, offensive, and
is making every attempt in the world to evade questions. I think
lie ought to be made to answer the questions directly, or we should
take proper action.
1'X-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3825
The Chairman. What is the question? Ask the question again.
Mr. Whitley. The question is whether the influence which Mr.
Kuhn's brother obviously has, as a high official, a member of the
highest judicial body in Germany — whether that influence which he
has had anything to do with Mr. Kuhn's selection as head of the
German organization in this country.
The Chairman. You can answer that question "yes" or "no."
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. Now proceed.
Mr. Whitley. We had some testimony yesterday ? Mr. Kuhn, with
reference to a meeting held out on Long Island, m March of this
year, I believe it was, at the home of Mrs. Rudyard Uzzell. You
testified you were present at that meeting. Were any of the other
members of the bund present at the meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. How many?
Mr. Kuhn. Three.
Mr. Whitley. And who were those — three in addition to yourself ;
that was four, altogether — four representatives of the bund? Who
were the others present?
Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Kunze.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kunze — he is director of your youth movement
and head of your bureau of enlightenment, I believe you call it?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. All right ; who were the others ?
Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Elmer.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Elmer?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What is his first name?
Mr. Kuhn. Gustav.
Mr. Whitley. And what is his position in the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Director of organization.
Mr. Whitley. Director of what ?
Mr. Kuhn. Of organization.
Mr. Whitley. And who was the fourth member present ?
Mr. Kuhn. I am not absolutely sure, but I think it was James
Wheeler Hill.
Mr. Whitley. James Wheeler Hill, the secretary?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I take that back; it was Mr. Markmann.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Markmann is head of the local in New7 York?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. What is his position ?
Mr. Kuhn. Eastern district leader.
Mr. Whitley. He is a district leader ? You stated, I believe, there
were approximately 40 people at the meeting and that you did not
know who any of them were, with the exception of General Moseley,
who spoke ; is that correct ?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Whitley. You did not go into any detail as to the nature of the
meeting, or the nature of the speech which General Moseley made.
Would you tell us what that was, for the record ?
Mr. Kuhn. To the best of my recollection, he delivered a speech
about a condition in the United States.
3826
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. I see. Did he propose any remedies for that con-
dition ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; he didn't.
Mr. Whitley. No proposals or suggestions?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr Whitley. Is it true, and it has been so alleged, that that house,
that night, was guarded by O. D. representatives of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. The house was not guarded. .
Mr Whitley. It was not guarded bv any of your representatives <
Mr.' Kuhn. If it was guarded, I did not see it; and it was not
guarded by O. D. men at all. . m
Mr. Whitley. I see. Who else spoke besides General Moseley?
Mr. Kuhn. There spoke another gentleman which name I don't
know.
Mr. Whitley. What organization did he represent*
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, everybody there was introduced,
were they not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. They stood up and were introduced: and. it they
wanted to, said a few words ?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no ; it wasn't, I said a few words.
Mr. Whitley. You said a few words \
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did you make any statement, or just stand up and
sit down ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I spoke a few words.
Mr. Whitley. Will you, to the best of your ability, repeat the
tenor of vour comments that evening?
Mr. Kuhn. I was saying that I absolutely agreed 100 percent
with the speech General Moseley gave.
Mr. Whitley. I see.
Mr. Kuhn. That "I had a delightful evening"— you know what
you say ; "I am glad I came there," and that is so.
Mr. Whitley. When you were invited to attend that gathering
by Mrs. Uzzell, did you know who was going to be there?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You knew General Moseley was going to be there?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. Whitley. Did you know any of the other organizations that
were to be represented ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. You were not interested enough to find out who
3^our company at that particular meeting would be?
Mr. Kuhn. No. As long as General Moseley speaks, that is suf-
ficient for me.
Mr. Whitley. You took it for granted it would be all right?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; that it is all right.
Mr. Whitley. And although everyone there was introduced, you
do not remember anyone else who was present?
Mr. Kuhn. There was no introduction at all but the speaker.^
Mr. Whitli v. As I recall, General Moseley testified — and this is
purely from my recollection — that the various oues there were in-
troduced.
the
r.v AMi;iur.\.\ propaganda activities 3827
Mr. Kriix. To Mr. Moseley.
Mr. Whttlet. I see. I understood they stood up and were intro-
duced to the whole gathering.
Mr. Kuiin. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Just as you were?
Mr. Kuhx. After the speech, yes.
Mr. Whitley. Everyone was?
Mr. Krux. No.
Mr. "Whitley. Just yourself?
Mr. Kuhx. Myself, and Mr. Kunze, for instance.
Mr. Whitley. Why at the whole gathering of 40 were you the
only one publicly introduced to the whole gathering?
Mr. Kuhx. I told you there was another couple of gentlemen
introduced, which names I don't recollect.
Mr. Whitley. They did not mean anything at all to you?
Mr. Kuhx. No.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know who they were?
Mr. Kuhx. No.
Mr. Whitley. You stated yesterday, I believe, that the purpose
of that meeting was not to get the heads of the various organizations
together with a view to setting up an organization to consolidate all
of them ?
Mr. Kuhx. No; it was certainly not my idea, because afterward
nothing was talked about.
Mr. Whitley. There was no discussion along that line at all?
Mr. Kuhx. Not after the speech.
Mr. Whitley. How long did that meeting last?
Mr. Kuhx. About 2y2 or 3 hours.
Air. Whitley. Two and a half or three hours. Did General Mose-
ley talk the entire time?
Mr. Kuhx. No. As I said, there was another gentleman talked.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know who he was?
Mr. Kuhx. No; I don't.
Mr. Whitley. If his name was called would you remember, or
could you identify him?
Mr. Kuhx. It might be.
Mr. Whitley. It might be?
Mr. Kuhx. If I saw him, I could identify him.
Mr. Whitley. You have a very poor memory for names, Mr.
Kuhn.
Mr. Kuhx. Well, is that a question, or is that a speech?
Air. Whitley. No; that is a comment.
Air. Kuhx. That is a comment.
Mr. Wthitley. Mr. Kuhn, what are the sources of the material
which you use in your publications?
Mr. Kuhx. I don't get that question.
Mr. Whitley. From what sources do you get the material which
is published in Weckruf ?
Mr. Kuhx. All kinds of material.
Mr. Whitley. All kinds of material ?
Mr. Kuhx. All kinds.
Mr. Whitley. Do you get any of it from German sources ?
Mr. Kuhx. Yes. We get one what you call News — what is the
name of it ; some kind of news distributed like we have here, too, you
know.
3828 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. You mean the World Service?
Mr. Kuhn. World Service; that is right.
Mr. Whitley. That is not a very difficult name. Where is the
headquarters of the World Service?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know where the headquarters are?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know where those releases or news that
comes from that source — where it comes from or how you get it ?
Mr. Kuhn. It comes from Germany.
Mr. Whitley. It comes from, Germany ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What is the nature of the organization?
Mr. Kuhn. I think they have a representative here; if I am cor-
rect, they have somebody here which distributes that.
Mr. Whitley. What is the nature of that organization — the World
Service; is it a private organization, or semiprivate?
Mr. Kuhn. I think it is a private organization.
Mr. Whitley. Or a government-owned or controlled organization?
Mr. Kuhn. I think it is private.
Mr. Whitley. You think it is entirely independent of the Xazi
government ?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know that.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know that ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, you don't know whether it is an
agency of the government or a private enterprise?
Mr. Kuhn. It is a private enterprise, so far as I know it.
Mr. Whttley. So far as you know it ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What other German sources do you utilize for ma-
terial for your publication ?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, once in a while a German newspaper — once in a
while.
Mr. Whitley. You reprint from German newspapers?
Mr. Kuhn. Once in a great while. For instance, a speech delivered
there, we reprint that.
Mr. Whitley. Do you ever use the Fichte Bund ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. You never use any of their material?
Mr. Kuhn. It was used years ago, but it is not used any more
now.
Mr. Whitley. That is the organization with headquarters at Erfurt?
Mr. Kuhn. Hamburg.
Mr. Whitley. Hamburg — that is right.
The Chairman. Mr. Whitley, I wonder if we could clarify one thing
the witness said? Had you finished on that particular line?
Mr. Whitley. Just one question more. The Weckruf, Mr. Kuhn,
for January 2G, 1939, page 7, columns 4 and 5, contains an article, a
lather lengthy article, with reference to the Fichte Bund, and Mr.
Rudolph Kessemeier, who is the head of the Fichte Bund. Do you
recall that article?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. AViiitley. You don't have any recollection of that?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
:
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3829
Mr. Whitley. But you are positive your publication does not use
any Fichte Bund material?
Mr. Kuiin. They should not: if they do, they should not.
Mr. Whitley. Is the Fichte Bund, to the best of your knowledge,
a private enterprise, or a government-controlled propaganda agency?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; I think it is private.
Mr. Whitley. Private — entirely independent of the government ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Mr. Kuhn, I want you to explain to us what is the
function and purpose of the O. D. — orderly division — of bund mem-
bers?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, as I said before, that is an organization which
keeps order at our meetings.
The Chairman. Keeps order in the meetings?
Mr. Kuhn. Keeps order in the meetings.
The Chairman. What else?
Mr. Kuhn. They do practical work.
The Chairman. They do practical work in carrying out propa-
ganda or enlightenment?
Mr. Kuhn. No; but, for instance, setting up the stage and doing
practical work.
The Chairman. And what other function does it have ?
Mr. Kuhn. As I said, to keep order.
The Chairman. I say, outside of keeping order.
Mr. Kuhn. That is all.
The Chairman. Does it not have the function of being the more
advanced body in the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. If you want to take that, yes.
The Chairman. It is the more advanced group in the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. And it has had more training than the average
member of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know what you call "training."
The Chairman. I mean every man who is a member of the O. D.
has to spend at least 6 months in the bund before he is selected for
the O. D.?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
The Chairman. And he is selected on the basis of qualifications?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
The Chairman. If he is shown special aptitude or ability, he is
promoted to the O. D. ; is that not true ?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
The Chairman. And it is not a military organization ?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not.
The Chairman. The primary purpose of it is to keep order and
also your training is in order to develop bodily strength; is not that
true?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. I mean, when you march, that is not for the pur-
pose of building up a military organization, but for the purpose of
giving the members exercise and bodily strength?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, we don't march; I mean we marched once.
The Chairman. You march out in the camps ; we have photographs
of the various O. D. divisions marching.
94931 — 39— vol. 6 9
3830 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. You call it columns, of course.
The Chairman. You do march in column, don't you '.
Mr. Kuhn. Sure.
The Chairman. Would this be a correct description of the O. D. :
Its training must be carried out not on military principles, but on
the point of view of what is best for the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
The Chairman. To see that its members must be made fit of body,
store must be set not on drill, but on training for sports. Would that
be correct?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; they do some sporting.
The Chairman. Now would this be a correct description of the
O. D. :
In order to prevent the orderly division from assuming any char-
acter of secrecy, not only must the uniform be universally recognized,
but also the road which the organization must take, so as to be of
most use to the movement, must be clearly defined and universally
known. Is that correct?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; that is not correct.
The Chairman. It must not work by secret means? Is that
correct ?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct — not by secret means.
The Chairman. Now would what I have read you be a fair descrip-
tion of the O. D.?
Mr. Kuhn. Part ways, with the exception where I answered no.
The Chairman. With the exception of the part where it says in
order to prevent the orderly division from assuming any character of
secrecy, not only must the uniform be universally recognized, but
also the road which the organization must take, so as to be of most
use to the movement, must be clearly defined and universally known.
That would not be correct, would it?
Mr. Kuhn. That is not correct.
The Chairman. But the part which says, "It must not work by
secret means" would be correct?
Mr. Kuhn. No secrecy at all, if I understand you right.
The Chairman. And the first part I read you would be a correct
description of the purpose and functions of the O. D. ?
Mr. Kuhn. In general.
The Chairman. For your information, I took that from Mein
Kampf, which describes the purposes of the storm detachment.
Mr. Kuhn. I knew you did.
The Chairman. You know that ?
Mr. Kuhn. Sure.
The Chairman. So, as a matter of fact, you have patterned your
organization after the storm detachment, have you not ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I did not.
The Chairman. I want to read you what Hitler said was the
purpose of the storm detachment. Here is what he said
ATr. Kuhn. No; read, please, what the exercises of the American
A liny are.
The Chairman. 1 am not talking about the American Army now.
I lead from Mein Kampf.
Mr. Kuhn. That is exactly it.
Me
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3831
The Chairman. And I substituted the words "orderly division"
for "storm detachment," and you said that properly described the
purpose of the O. D.
Mr. Kuhn. On the two points.
The Chairman. It says this — here is what I read describing the
purpose of the O. D. :
Its training must be carried out not on military principles, but on tbe point
of view of wbat is best for the bund ; seeing that its members must be made fit
of body, store must be set not on drill, but on training for sports.
I read you that, and you said that described properly the O. D.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; that is right.
The Chairman. Now, as a matter of fact, won't you be frank
enough to admit to this committee that your O. D. was modeled after
the storm detachment in Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. No; it was not.
The Chairman. That is where you got the inspiration and the
idea?
I Mr. Kuhn. No ; it was not.
The Chairman. But the first part of it is similar.
Mr. Kuhn. It is not.
The Chairman. You have no military training, but they march
in formation; you have a descriptive uniform?
Mr. Kuhn. We have a uniform; yes.
The Chairman. And you wear the Nazi symbol on the uniform ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; we don't.
The Chairman. Do you carry it anywhere on the person; is the
Nazi symbol anywhere on the person of the O. D.?
Mr. Kuhn. No, not the Nazi symbol.
The Chairman. What symbol?
iMr. Kuhn. Our own.
The Chairman. What is yours?
Mr. Kuhn. It is the sun with the rays of the sun.
Mr. Starnes. In other words, it is the flaming swastika?
IMr. Kuhn. If you want to call it that way.
The Chairman. It is the swastika?
Mr. Kuhn. It is the swastika ; yes.
The Chairman. And, therefore, for every practical purpose, where
else could you have gotten the idea of the orderly division, except
from the storm detachment in Germany ? Where else could you have
gotten it?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, from my own experience.
The Chairman. From your own experience?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. You see, our meetings are disturbed by Com-
munist supporters, and so on, and you have to protect your members.
The Chairman. That is exactly what Hitler found in the be-
ginning of the Nazi Party in Germany, was it not, at the earlier
meetings?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know.
Mr. Starnes. Now, following up that question on the O. D: The
O. D. is the soldier in your movement, is he not?
Mr. Kuhn. He is not a soldier.
Mr. Starnes. He is not a soldier; well, he has to prepare him-
self spiritually and physicallv, does he not, for his duties as a
member of the O. D. I
3832 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Voluntarily, yes.
Mr. Starnes. And, like the whole movement, he stands for the
leadership principal; is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. And his honor demands to prepare for a position
of leader ; is that right ?
Mr. Kuhn. To a certain extent ; yes.
Mr. Starnes. To be a leader demands, above all, great knowledge
in racial and cultural regards; is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. A leader of every sort.
Mr. Starnes. He should also have firmness of character, manly
courage, sincerest and truest devotion of his whole self to the move-
ment. Is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. To the movement, and the movement is in order fol-
lowing the constitution, because he has to follow the constitution
first.
Mr. Starnes. And the "movement" here, of course, means the Ger-
man-American Bund?
Mr. Kuhn. The constitution of the bund, of course.
Mr. Starnes. The Fuehrer does not take, but gives. Is that cor-
rect ?
Mr. Kuhn. He takes, but gives ?
Mr. Starnes. No; he does not take, but gives.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I don't know exactly what you mean by that.
Mr. Starnes. To acquire the capacity for leadership, it is neces-
sary to have above all self-discipline, willingness to make sacrifices
and the spirit of genuine comradship. Is that a correct description
of the principles of the O. D.?
Mr. Kuhn. Every man in a position should have that.
The Chairman. But that was not his question. His question to
you was whether or not that was true with reference to the O. D.
Mr. Kuhn. No; every man should have that.
The Chairman. That is not responsive to the question. Ask the
question again. The question is, Is that true with reference to the
O. D?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, of course, but every man; I go further than that.
Mr. Starnes. An O. D. man who cannot subordinate himself, who
fears responsibility, cannot bear a harsh word from his superior or
comrade, and tries to evade his duties, has no right to wear the
honor garb of your movement. Is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. And the honor garb is, of course, the distinctive uni-
form which they wear?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. O. D. people are always open and free with one
another and live according to the word of the Fuehrer. Is that
right?
Mr. Kuhn. Ri<rht.
I.
Mr. Ki
I.St
Mr. Starnes. Common-weal before self -weal; is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. Right.
Mr. Starnes. Those, then, are the real fundamental principles of
(he O. D., are they not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. k a
Htl
Mr.
(1
idges i
fell
Mr.]
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3333
k it;
Mr. Starnes. You stated on yesterday that at your meetings — and
I am speaking now of the meetings of the bund — you used the
American flag .'
Mr. Kuiin. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. I want you to look at this photograph here, which is
a photograph of Fritz Kuhn, fuehrer of the United States, supposed
to have been taken at Camp Siegfried, Long Island, N. Y. Look
at that and see if that is your photograph.
Mr. Kuhn (after examination). That is correct.
Mr. Starnes. That is correct?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. At that time, you were decorating the swastika?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct. It was 1936.
Mr. Starnes. 1936? That is the flag of the German Government,
is it not?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Air. Starnes. Are there any American flags there in that photo-
graph ?
Mr. Kuhn. Not in the photograph.
Mr. Starnes. There are several more swastikas there, are there
not?
Mr. Kuhn. There is one more ; yes.
Mr. Starnes. One more. Now, here is what purports to be a
picture of yourself addressing a Fourth of July audience of 10,000
at Camp Siegfried, Long Island. See if that is your picture there.
Mr. Kuhn (after examination). Yes; it is.
Mr. Starnes What is that symbol or flag that you see there?
Air. Kuhn. That is the German flag.
Mr. Starnes. The German flag. Where is the American flag?
There is none evident.
Air. Kuhn. Oh, you did not take it ; you did not take it that way.
Mr. Starnes. Now, I ask you to examine this photostatic copy of
what purports to be a receipt signed by you, No. 915, which acknowl-
edges receipt of a donation of the sum of $1. Look at that and see
if that is a correct copy of your signature.
Mr. Kuhn (after examination). That is a correct copy; yes.
Air. Starnes. That is a correct copy ?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. What is this emblem down in the lower left-hand
corner there ? Is that an emblem of the German Bund ?
Air. Kuhn. An emblem of the German Bund ; yes.
Mr. Starnes. That is what you call the sunlight flaming from the
swastika ?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Starnes. Or the flaming swastika ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Is that a receipt for membership, or a voluntary con-
tribution ?
Mr. Kuhn. The receipt says "voluntary contribution."
Mr. Starnes. From whom do you receive those contributions, Mr.
¥e Kuhn?^
Mr. Kuhn. From anybody.
Mr. Starnes. From anybody?
Mr. Kuhn. Whoever wants to give them.
1 maul;
e move-
der
titu
lie Ger-
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ition
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3834 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. I see. And you say the largest single contribution
you have ever received is $500?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct — once ; one single one, I said.
Mr. Starnes. Yes. Now, since you have had an opportunity to
refresh your recollection about it, do you recall who gave you that
$500?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; I cannot recollect that.
Mr. Starnes. You cannot recollect that?
Mr. Kuhn. I could if I had time to look at our books.
Mr. Starnes. Now, that is a correct copy of receipt No. 915 which
you gave — the photostatic copy there ?
Mr. Kuhn. It says "915"; yes.
Mr. Starnes. That is correct, When was the German-American
Bund organized?
Mr. Kutin. As I said, in March 1936.
Mr. Starnes. March 1936. This purports to have been signed, a
receipt signed April 20, 1937. So far as you know, that is the correct
date, of course?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. It states in here, "German-American Bund. I here-
with acknowledge donation of the sum of $1 for the fifth year of
our battle." Now, what is "our battle" ?
Mr. Kuhn. The fight of the German-American elements in this
country.
Mr. Starnes. That had been going on, then, for 5 years previous
or prior to the time you gave this receipt ; is that correct ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Who started that "battle" in 1932?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know who started it; I don't know.
Mr. Staknes. Were you a member of the Friends of New Ger-
many in 1932?
Mr. Kuhn. There was no such a thing in 1932 — not to my knowl-
edge.
Mr. Starnes. What organization of the German-American element
was there in being in the United States in 1932?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, there were different ones ; dozens of them.
Mr. Starnes. Name them.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I cannot name all of them.
Mr. Starnes. You cannot name all ; name some of them.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, there was a lot of German societies.
Mr. Starnes. Were you a member of any of them ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. None at all ?
Mr. Kuhn. Not at all.
Mr. Starnes. Then you are unable to explain the significance of
that receipt of $1 "for 'the fifth year of our battle"?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. You don't know what had been going on for 5 years
previous to that?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I know.
Mr. Starnes. Well, what was it?
Mr. Kuhn\ Well, the same fight. The German element was perse-
cuted all the time.
Mr. Starnes. Who persecuted them?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3835
Mr. Khun. Well, newspapers — some certain classes.
Mr. Starxes. You mean American citizens were persecuting them?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; sure.
Mr. Starnes. Can you name some American citizens
Mr. Kuhn. No; I can't.
Mr. Starnes (continuing). Or groups? Do you mean to say cer-
tain groups in this country were persecuting the German people?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Who were they?
Mr. Kuhn. For instance, the communistic movement?
Mr. Starnes. The communistic movement?
Mr. Kuhn. The Non-Sectarian League, for instance.
Mr. Starnes. The Non-Sectarian League?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Name some more.
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know the name of any more. There was in
each town the League for Democracy.
Mr. Starxes. Will you tell us who some of the members were in
the movement to unite the German-American element in this
country ?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, there were a bunch of them in each town.
Mr. Starnes. Fritz Gissibl?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Peter Gissibl?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Walter Kappe?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Who was this Walter Kappe?
Mr. Kuhn. Who was he?
Mr. Starnes. Yes.
Mr. Kuhn. Walter Kappe was Walter Kappe ; I don't know who.
Mr. Starnes. He was a German, was he not — a German citizen?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And at one time was head of the "enlightenment"
division of the German- American Bund, was he not?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; he wasn't.
Mr. Starnes. "What is this expression; what is this word right
here; what does this word mean — "bundespressantwert" ?
Mr. Kuhx. That means "bunde press antwert."
Mr. Starnes. What is that?
Mr. Kuhx. Editor of the newspaper for the bund organ.
Mr. Starnes. That is right. He was the editorial mouthpiece of
the German-American Bund ; is that right ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; for the time being ; yes.
Mr. Starnes. And he was in 1937, was he not '.
Mr. Kuhn. In the beginning of 1937 ; yes.
Mr. Staenes. And he was all through 1936?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. He was never an American citizen, was he?
Mr. Kuhn. Not to nxy knowledge; no.
Mr. Starnes. And he is now in Germany ; that is your last knowl-
edge of him?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
3836 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. Does he hold any position in the German- American
Bund at the present time?
Mr. Kuhn. Who?
Mr. Starnes. This Walter Kappe.
Mr. Kuhn. He is not here any more.
Mr. Starnes. He is not here any more ?
Mr. Kuhn. You know
Mr. Starnes. When did he go to Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. I think around 1937.
Mr. Starnes. In 1937. Was he in the group that went with you
in 1936 to Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. No; he wasn't.
Mr. Starnes. When was it you stated that all citizens of German
extraction — I will put it this way: I think you stated to this com-
mittee yesterday that you went to the German consul in 1935 in an
effort to get German citizens out of this movement.
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Starnes. In 1932, you say, you had a man up there as the editor
of your publication, as a part of the national organization, handling
your newspaper work for you, or your press relations work?
Mr. Kuhn. As I told you yesterday, I had to take him out. I was
not empowered to do anything with the newspaper then. I was not
the president then. I became president in 1937.
Mr. Starnes. I thought you said you organized it in 1936.
Mr. Kuhn. That was the bund, not the paper. The newspaper is a
business corporation.
Mr. Starnes. You have a bund unit at Los Angeles, have you not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. And you have one at Oakland, Calif. ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. At St. Louis, Mo. ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Now, the leader of that local unit was Otto Weide-
mann ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Who is that?
Mr. Kuhn. Heinie.
Mr. Starnes. He set up the department or division, or O. D. divi-
sion, there?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Who is he, or who did that?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know.
Mr. Starnes. He was leader of the O. D. division, was he not?
Mr. Kuhn. I think not.
Mr. Starnes. In 1935 ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. In 1936?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. In 1937?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. But he was at one time ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know.
Mr. Starnes. What about Anton Kessler? Do you know him?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3837
Mr. Starnes. He is leader of the St, Louis post unit ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. He was leader in 1938 ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. What was he?
Mr. Kuhn. In 1936, we took back into the convention in Buffalo-
Mr. Starnes (interposing). Who called that convention to Buffalo?
Mr. Kuhn. I did.
Mr. Starnes. To whom did you issue the call ?
Mr. Kuhn. To the local unit leaders.
Mr. Starnes. Of what?
Mr. Kuhn. Of the German -American Bund, or the Friends of New
Germany.
Mr. Starnes. At that time?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. The Friends of New Germany had an 0. D. divi-
sion, did they?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Anton Kessler is not an American citizen, is he?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know.
Mr. Starnes. You did issue the call for the national convention in
1936, which was the first national convention, or the organization
convention for the bund? You issued that call to German citizens
to operate under that form of organization?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. Starnes. Walter Kappe was there?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. And Anton Kessler was there?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Was Otto Weidemann there?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir ; not that I know of.
Mr. Starnes. As to those who are not American citizens, Kappe
has never become one?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mr. Starnes. Is Markmann an American citizen?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. And Schwinn, Froboese, and Firschkorn?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. When did you go to Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. In July.
Mr. /vtarnes. You went on the New Yorker, did you not ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Who went with you?
Mr. Kuhn. About 425.
Mr. Starnes. Were all of them members of the German- American
Bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Most of them.
Mr. St.arnes. You went on the steamer New Yorker f
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. You left New York City and went direct to
German v '.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir ; that is right,
Mr. Starnes. This was in July, after you organized the bund in
March in Buffalo?
3838 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Starnes. The idea was to take this group back to Germany ?
Mr. Kuhn. Back to Germany — what do you mean by "back"?
Mr. Starnes. To visit Germany.
Mr. Kuhn. It was my idea.
Mr. Starnes. It was your idea to go over there in uniform?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. You wore your uniform?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. And you marched down the streets of Berlin?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; with the permission of the German Ambas-
sador.
Mr. Starnes. Did you get permission of German officials to march?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; you have to get the permission of the police
department to march on the streets.
Mr. Starnes. And at this time you presented this contribution
that has been referred to ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. If I am correctly informed, the statistics available
show that there has been no relief problem in Germany for years.
One of the proud boasts of the German Government is that there is
no relief problem, and that they have to import labor.
Mr. Kuhn. That was not my concern. I do not know enough
about the conditions in Germany to say that.
Mr. Starnes. You say you did not know about the conditions.
You know about the conditions of employment ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. That there is no unemployment ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Is it true that they have actually had to import
labor — is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. And that has been the condition for several years?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not think it has been so for several years.
Mr. Starnes. Under those circumstances, why did you feel it
necessary for you to issue a call for relief funds in Germany, with
everybody at work?
Mr. Kuhn. In the first place, that was in 1936, and in 1936 there
were relief needs. There was a need in 1936 and in 1935.
Mr. Starnes. Did you receive communications from friends in
Germany to the effect that a winter-relief program should be carried
on there ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. That they would like to have the friends of Ger-
many throughout the world to help them in this fight for relief?
Mr. Kuhn. No. sir.
Mr. Starnes. You conceived this idea yourself?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. sir.
Mr. Starnes. Without any suggestions from anyone?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Starnes. Knowing the conditions over there, or having knowl-
edge of the conditions over there, you called on American citizens
to contribute toward this fund?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
■■■
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3839
Mr. Starnes. As to this honor roll that you presented to Hitler,
do 1 understand you presented him with an honor roll on that oc-
casion, or did you present Hitler with an honor roll book at the same
time, or at the time you gave this help?
Mr. Kuhn. It was not an honor roll, but just a book roll. Every-
body has the right to sign his name in this book.
Mr. Starnes. All the contributors signed that book which was
presented \
Mr. Ktjhn. Yes, sir.
Mi-. Starnes. Did they know that the book was to be presented
to Hitler \
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Who told them that it would be presented to him?
Mr. Kuhn. I did.
Mr. Starnes. You made this arrangement, or made the arrange-
ment to take up this contribution and to obtain these signatures
months before you went to Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. A few months before.
Mr. Starnes. And you did that with the express purpose of send-
ing the money and the book to the Fuehrer?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. With whom did you make the arrangement?
Mr. Kuhn. What arrangement?
Mr. Starnes. To present him with the book and money.
Mr. Kuhn. Nobody.
Mr. Starnes. I have here the 1937 yearbook of the German-
American Bund.
Mr. Kuhn. That is not a year book of the German-American
Bund. I told you that yesterday. That is a publication of Walter
Kappe. He was at that time the editor.
Mr. Starnes. A publication of the German-American Bund \
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; not of the German-American Bund. He was
the editor of that newspaper.
Mr. Starnes. It was published by the Deutscher Weckruf Beo-
bachter ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; it is a newspaper.
Mr. Starnes. It shows a parade of children in Chicago, and an-
other picture. Is that an authentic photograph.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; I think so.
Mr. Starnes. That is a part of the German-American youth
movement ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Under the sponsorship and leadership of the Ger-
man-American Bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. A salute is being given. What is that salute ?
Mr. Kuhn. With an upright hand.
Mr. Starnes. That is the salute of the Nazi government?
Mr. Kuhn. We have the same salute; yes sir.
Mr. Starnes. I notice another picture published in this same pub-
lication. This is supposed to have been taken at Elizabeth, N. J., on
May 25, 1935. You have a unit at Elizabeth, do you not ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
3840 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. It shows a group in uniforms, with a flag. The
swastika and the American flag are both there.
Mr. Kuhn. I was not there in 1935. That does not concern me.
Mr. Starnes. You do not know anything about that ?
Mr. Kuhn. It does not .concern me. I am not responsible for it.
Mr. Starnes. Did the Friends of New Germany hold camps?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know.
Mr. Starnes. The camp idea was a bund idea, was it not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir ; it was my idea.
Mr. Starnes. Do you have any connection at all with the German
war veterans group?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Do they attend meetings?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Do they attend in uniform ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir ; once in a while.
Mr. Starnes. Some of them are members of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. They might be.
Mr. Starnes. There is a connection between the Railroad Tourists
German Bureau and the German-American Bund, is there not?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir ; there is no connection.
Mr. Starnes. There is no connection?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. There is no correspondence between them?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. There is no connection of any kind ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Is it putting out a number of motion-picture films
for the public which you might say is either enlightenment or propa-
ganda, depending on the viewpoint, which they furnish the various
bund post meetings, through this medium ?
Mr. Kuhn. They might be.
Mr. Starnes. I believe that one of the purposes of your organiza-
tion, and is so stated in the constitution, is to be and remain worthy
of Germany, and their German blood, German customs, German prin-
ciples, and so forth, and to cultivate German language, customs, and
ideals, and to be proud of those principles. It appears in section 11
of article 2, as one of the purposes of the German-American Bund.
Is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. At the camps, where you take children, you are
carrying on a program of physical education, are you not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. In sports, swimming, boxing, and so forth?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; all kinds of sports.
Mr. Starnes. What about calisthenics?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know what you mean.
Mr. Starnes. Physical exercise.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; they have that.
Mr. Starnes. How are they organized? Do you have a leader
there, and does he have subleaders?
Mr. Kuhn. There is one man in charge of the camp.
Mr. Starnes. How many assistants does he have?
Mr. Kuhn. As many as are necessary.
TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3841
Mr. Starnes. What about the hours?
Mr. Kuhn. They come up like they do at Scout camps. They
come up to the camp, have breakfast, swim, and have some exer-
cising. They eat lunch, get rested, and swim and exercise again.
That is the basic program.
Mr. Stabnes. Do you give any classroom instruction?
Mr. Kuhn. Not in the camps.
Mr. Starnes. Where is that carried on?
Mr. Kuhn. That is carried on in the Saturday schools for the
German language.
Mr. Starnes. On Saturdays you conduct German language
schools.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. While in the camps, do they use the German lan-
guage, and is that done in order that they may familiarize them-
selves with the German language?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; they use whatever language they see fit.
Mr. Starnes. What type of instruction is given? What is the
first textbook used for the instruction of the children ?
Mr. Kuhn. They have no textbook.
Mr. Starnes. How do they instruct them in the language if they
do not have textbooks?
Mr. Kuhn. For instance, they have some fables.
The Chairman. Is Mein Kampf one of the fables ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. That is one of the fables, is it not?
Mr. Kuhn. Not for the children.
Mr. Starnes. You have speeches sent from Germany, disseminated
in the German language?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Do you have that in your movement ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. You have invited a number of consuls to serve or
to make talks to them ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir ; not to the children.
Mr. Starnes. You do distribute pamphlets and printed matter, or
program of enlightenment, do you not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. You have a number of German consuls to address
meetings wherever you have a bund group, do you not? You have
a number of German consuls wherever you have bund groups, do
you not ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. The only exception there is German day.
Mr. Starnes. What day is that '.
Mr. Kuhn. The 1st day of October.
That has been only the last 2 years. The only exception is German
day.
Mr. Starnes. Prior to 2 years ago, was there not a close connection
(between the Friends of New Germany, or between Germans and
American citizens of German extraction ?
Mr. Kuhn. I could not see any close connection.
Mr. Starnes. Up to 3 years ago. was not the Friends of New
Germany working side by side with them, in the battle to unite
3842 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
people of the German race, German citizens, or people of German
birth or German extraction here?
Mr. Kuhn. For your information, I will say that the Friends of
New Germany in 1935 was not a political organization, but was a
social society.
Mr. Starnes. I did not say it was a political organization, but at
that time they were working side by side with them to that end, and
sometime in 1935 or 1936, an order came from Germany which said
that in this movement, or in these movements, in this country Ger-
man citizens should work side by side.
Mr. Kuhn. That is not correct. I never saw a written order, or
any order given out by the German Government for the United
States. That was all over the countries, where there were German
citizens, and any country, not to belong to political organizations.
That was not the Friends of New Germany. It was long before that.
The Chairman. There is one thing I want to have cleared up in
connection with this, and I would like to get a more definite state-
ment about it : In your application, or, rather, your receipt for a
donation you say: "I hereby acknowledge a donation of $1 for the
fifth year of our battle." That is dated in 1937, so that your battle
started in 1932, did it not ?
Mr. Kuhn. It started before that.
The Chairman. Why does it say "the fifth year of our battle"?
Mr. Kuhn. That was not true.
The Chairman. That was the year that Hitler started his battle?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
The Chairman. He went into power in 1933?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. It was started in 1932?
Mr. Kuhn. He started in 1933. In 1932 the German element was
persecuted, and badly so. It was persecuted long before that.
The Chairman. He won his battle in 1933?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. Ur
The Chairman. In 1932 he began his battle? I
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; he started in 1919. Mr. K
The Chairman. In 1933 there occurred his organization or reform
of the Nazi Party?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. You tell me that. I do not know.
The Chairman. When you said "our battle" did you not have in
mind the battle of Hitler?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; I d;d not.
The Chairman. What did you mean by that?
Mr. Kuhn. Because the German element had been persecuted
a long time.
The Chairman. What was the significance of that statement, "the
fifth year of our battle"?
Mr. Kuhn. Because from that time, for 5 years
The Chaiopn. You mean that the battle started in 1932?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir: in a small amount.
The Ciiatrman. Who started the battle in 1932 against the Ger-
mans?
Mr. Kuhn. The Communist movement.
The Chairman. The Communist movement?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3843
The Chairman. What other organizations?
Mr. Kuiin. The Non-Sectarian League.
The Chairman. What other organizations?
Mr. Kuiin. Many other organizations.
The Chairman. They started a battle against the Germans just
before Hitler won his battle '.
Mr. Krux. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. These organizations started a conscious movement
of German persecution?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Name some of them.
Mr. Kuiin. In 1935
The Chairman. I said 1932.
Mr. Kuiin. I do not know about 1932. I mean what I saw with
my own eyes.
The Chairman. What do you mean by that?
Mr. Kuhn. In January 1933 I saw a meeting in the Lincoln Turn
Hall broken up.
The Chairman. What was that meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. Of German societies, four or five societies. The Ger-
man War Veterans were there.
The Chairman. What else was there?
Mr. Kuiin. There was another society of the German Friends.
That was at the Lincoln Turn Hall in Chicago.
The Chairman. Who broke it up?
Mr. Kuhn. Some Communist movement led by Schreider.
Mr. Chairman. Who broke it up?
Mr. Kuhn. Schreider.
The Chairman. What did he do?
Mr. Kuhn. He came in with about a thousand people and broke
the meeting up.
The Chairman. That was 1932?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir ; the beginning of 1932.
The Chairman. What other instances were there?
Mr. Kuhn. I was not at the other places.
The Chairman. What other instances were there?
Mr. Kuhn. There was one at Detroit, one at New York, and other
places. That was one where I was present myself. I know that vou
want to make a connection there, but there is no connection. That
has nothing to do with it. You want to connect it with the fight
in Germany.
The Chairman. When you sav here "our battle" you did not have
in mind the same thing that Hitler had.
Mr. Kuiin. No, sir; certainly not.
The Chairman. You had in mind a battle here in the United
States?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What would you say the battle was against?
Would you say that it was against all the German people?
Mr. Kuhn. Not all of them.
The Chairman. What element was it against?
Mr. Kuhn. The active part, the units, societies, leagues, and so
forth.
IThe Chairman. Do you know, as a matter of fact, that on nu-
merous occasions, consuls did address the meetings ?
3844 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. I told you that on German Day we invite
them.
The Chairman. On occasions outside of German Da}' you have
had German consuls to address the meetings. You have had them
outside of German Day?
Mr. Kuhn. Very few.
The Chairman. You know very well that your bund has carried
on correspondence with agencies in Germany.
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
The Chairman. You must know that they have.
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you mean to say that they have not carried on
such correspondence with German agencies?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; they have not.
The Chairman. How do you account for the letters that Peter
Gissibl had? Did he not exchange correspondence with agencies of
the German Government?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know about Gissibl. You will have to subpena
him.
The Chairman. He was subpenaed. Did you not know that the
Chicago Bund post had correspondence with agencies in Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
The Chairman. Then, why did 3^011 issue the order to destroy all the
papers before we could get there?
Mr. Kuhn. I did that ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. They did destroy them?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You destroyed correspondence between your bund
and German Government agencies?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir ; it was private. It was a private organization,
and they sent a few books — two dozen books. The}- were not of a
political nature at all.
The Chairman. Did you read the correspondence between the Chi-
cago Bund post and the agents in Germany ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
The Chairman. Is that the only bund post you know of that had
such correspondence with German agencies ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; they cannot have any official correspondence.
They sent a letter, sending two dozen books. That letter came into the
hands of a newspaper, and it was spread all over the newspapers and
magazines. From that they said, there was a connection with Ger-
many.
The Chairman. Do you know of any other bund posts that have ex-
changed letters with German agencies? You have received many let-
ters from Germany, have you not ?
Mr. Kuhn. Of course ; I have my father there.
The Chairman. Do you not get lots of pamphlets and books from
Germany ?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you not have correspondence with the World
Service in Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you not get letters from agents in Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir:' I do not.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3845
The Chairman. Was that not true of the Chicago Bund post?
Why did you order those letters destroyed?
Mr. Kuhn. I have explained to you
The Chairman (interposing). You have not explained it at all.
You say you have not received any such letters, and I have asked
you : "Why did you order the bund post leader to destroy the cor-
respondence before it could be seized?"
Mi-. Kuhn. I said that there was no official correspondence.
The Chairman. Then why the necessity of issuing that order?
Mr. Kuhn. The order was to destroy the private correspondence.
The Chairman. You ordered them to destroy the correspondence,
because you knew that such correspondence was in existence?
Mr. Kuhn. There was no fair play. That is why.
The Chairman. You knew there was such correspondence?
Mr. Kuhn. They will take everything in a different way. It was
harmless.
The Chauoian. Did you not know that there was such correspond-
ence when you issued the order ?
Mr. Kuhn. Private correspondence: yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you not know that it was correspondence be-
tween the bund post and German agencies in Germany ?
Mr. Kuhx. No, sir ; I did not know that,
The Chairman. I call your attention to some 20 letters that passed
between the Chicago bund post with agents in Germany. You do
not deny that the correspondence took place, do you?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know anything about that.
The Chairman. You are responsible for it?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. He could not write any official letters.
The Chairman. He was the fuehrer, and he was writing letters
for the local post?
Mr. Kuhx. I do not know anything about that. Why do you not
subpena him?
The Chairman. He was subpenaed, and those letters are part of the
files. You know they carried on their correspondence with agencies
in Germany, do you not ?
had Mr. Kuhn. Not to my knowledge.
The Chairman. Why did you order it destroyed, if there was no
such correspondence ?
Mr. Kuhn. It was not correspondence with any official over there.
The Chairman. You were talking about the question of fair play,
(Lger. but you ordered that correspondence destroyed before the committee
went into action.
Mr. Kuhn. I told you why. I sent a telegram and asked that a
subpena be sent, but you did not. You did not do that,
Mr. Thomas. I object to the witness making speeches.
Mr. Kuhn. I have to defend myself. Mr. Chairman, I would like
to have a lawyer here. I must have legal advice now.
Mr. Starnes. Peter Gissibl was the former leader of the bund in
Chicago, was he not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. He is a brother of Fritz Gissibl?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; a brother of Fritz Gissibl.
94931— 39 — vol. 6 10
3846 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starves. Do you know anything about any representation be-
ing made to the German Government about Fritz Gissibl and Walter
Kappe ?
Mr. Kuhn. I did not get that.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know anything about any official representa-
tions that this Government, or any agent of this Government, made to
the German Government with reference to the objectionable activities
of Fritz Gissibl and Walter Kappe?
Mr. Kuhn. I think there was : yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. It was after that time that you undertook — in order
to protect your German-American Bund — it was after that time that
you issued your order that there must be a separation ?
Mr. Kuhn. I told you yesterday that it was in the convention of
193), in Philadelphia. There was no definite order.
Mr. Starnes. What was the organization?
Mr. Kuhn. The Friends of New Germany.
Mr. Starnes. Did you hold an official position at that time?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. St.' rnes. What position?
Mr. Kuhn. I was local leader in Detroit.
Mr. Starnes. Peter Gissibl is no longer the head of the German
Bund in Chicago?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. You removed him?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. You removed him at the time that this meeting of the
committee was called ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; but that had nothing to do with the meeting
here.
Mr. Starnes. Did you say anything about the reasons for removing
Peter Gissibl ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. What reasons did you assign?
Mr. Kuhn. He made long statements, and I knew that he had
correspondence with his father in Germany.
Mr. Starnes. You made the statement that he was a traitor to the
cause ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Why did you say he was a traitor to the cause?
Mr. Kuhn. For a bund officer
Mr. Staiines (interposing). Was he a traitor to the cause because
he testified before a congressional committee?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir.
Mr. St rnes. I will ask you to look at this photostatic copy of a
ticket. It is ticket No. 4213, and reads :
■
«iewi
then if v^
The bearer of this ticket has donated 10 cents for the benefit of Camp Nord-
land of the German-American Bund ; Sunday. July 18, 1937, the date of the
grand opening; the following prizes will be given away: First prize, a round
trip to Germany; second prize, a refrigerator; third prize, a short-wave radio;
and 20 other valuable prizes. becaiK
German-American Bund Units of the State of New Jersey.
Those were the prizes offered?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; they might be.
Mr. St rnes. The first prize was a round trip to Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
- of a
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3847
Mr. Starnes. What was there so attractive about that?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not undersi and your question ; that is not a fair
question. If .you are Irish and are going to Ireland on a vacation
because you are Irish, what is wrong about that?
Mr. Starnes. What I want
Mr. Kuhn. Do you not want me to answer your question? Is not
that an answer to vour question?
Mr. Starnes. What I want is this
Mr. Kuhn. What is wrong about them going to Germany? If I
had a passport, I would go now.
Mr. Starnes. Just answer my question. I do not want to have
an argument about it.
Mr. Kuhn. I want a lawyer; I must have a lawyer. If that is
the way you are going to conduct the investigation, I have to have
legal advice.
The Chairman. You make a formal request for a lawyer?
Mr. Ktjhn. I make a formal request for a lawyer.
The Chairman. As I understand the rules in connection with the
matter, witnesses are not permitted the benefit of counsel before
consressional committees; is that true, Mr. Whitley?
Mr. Whitley. They can be accorded that privilege.
It is within the discretion of the committee.
The Chairman. You feel that you want a lawyer ?
Mr. Kuhn. Not so long as you give me a chance to talk. But if
the gentleman cuts me off, then I do not know what I can object to,
or when I cannot object.
The Chairman. The Chair is being lenient with you in order to
prevent you from going out and saying you did not have an oppor-
tunity to talk.
Mr. Starnes. My objection is that he does not talk enough.
Mr. Kuhn. Congressman Thomas cuts me off all the time.
Mr. Starnes. I did not cut you off.
Mr. Kuhn. You did not; no; you did not.
Mr. Starnes. I am perfectly willing to have you talk. I want an
answer to my questions, and if you want to make explanatory state-
ments. I have no objection.
Mr. Kuhn. I was ordered by the chairman not to talk.
Mr. Thomas. I want to make it clear that I am not trving to cut
the witness off from talking, but I think the witness should be more
responsive to the questions in testifying and not bs unruly.
If we decide to let him make a statement, I am agreeable to have
him a make a statement, but we are asking him questions, and I think
he should be more responsive to those questions.
The Chairman. Suppose we do this: When a question is asked,
then jet the witness make his answers responsive to the question,
then if you have any explanation to make
Mr. Kuhn. And in the question there cannot be any conclusion.
The Chairman. Make your answers responsive, and then if you
have any explanation that you think is necessary, indicate that fact,
because this committee does not want to be unfair to you or to any
other witnesses. Is that satisfactory?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Starnes. Now, Mr. Kuhn, my question is this: Why did you
place that as a first prize? Was there any particular reason for' it?
3848 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. There is no particular reason, because I think that is
the highest prize. Sometimes we have an automobile as a prize and
sometimes we have an automobile and a round trip ticket to Ger-
many. If he does not want to go to Germany he can get the money.
Mr. Starnes. But why did you
Mr. Kuhn. I have not finished. Why do you not talk about the
prize where we had the round-trip ticket to Bermuda?
Mr. Starnes. Then the third prize was a short-wave radio set.
Was that usual ?
Mr. Kuhn. Sometimes.
Mr. Starnes. You encourage your members to buy short-wave
radio sets?
Mr. Kuhn. It is up to them.
Mr. Starnes. Do you not encourage them to do it?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not know whether they do; it is none of my
business.
Mr. Starnes. Is it true that foreign broadcasts can be picked up
on short-wave sets?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Do you encourage your members to do that at your
bund campmeetings?
Mr. Kuhn. You call that fair, because there is a short-wave radio,
if a man tries to make a connection there? That is why I want a
lawyer.
Mr. Starnes. I asked him if it was not true that on the short-
wave radio sets you can pick up foreign broadcasts.
The Chairman. What is wrong with that?
Mr. Kuhn. Do you not see that connection he is drawing, to put
me in?
The Chairman. You are the one who is drawing that conclusion.
Mr. Kuhn. He puts that to me and I ketched that a little too late.
Are they all like you from Alabama, Mr. Starnes?
Mr. Starnes. Can you answer the question?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I can.
Mr. Starnes. You can pick up broadcasts from other countries on
a short-wave radio set?
Mr. Kuhn. You have a short-wave radio?
Mr. Starnes. Sure; I asked you if you cannot do that.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; but I do not have one.
Mr. Starnes. In the cultivation — that is the language of your con-
stitution— the cultivation of the German language, customs, and
ideals, do }tou consider it would further your program if your mem-
bers were able, through short-wave radio sets, to get concerts, lec-
tures, or talks, and so forth, over short-wave radio sets from some
other country?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; if they want to.
Mr. Starnes. That is all I am asking you.
Mr. Kuhn. Sure ; if they want to.
Mr. Starnes. You encourage that?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know.
Mr. Starnes. You did not encourage it?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; I did not.
Mr. Starnes. Do you not think that is a most excellent manner
in which to cultivate those ideals?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3849
Mr. Kuhn. Sure: and that
set.
Mr. Starnes. Do you not give out circulars, or print circulars at
jour bund meetings, in which the members are told that lectures or
speeches or statements will be made in Germany and can be caught
over the short wave?
Mr. Kuhn. With one exception, no. It was that speech, I sup-
pose you heard him, because I know I heard him; Hitler's speech
that was made there for the whole world, that the whole world was
waiting for. I heard him myself.
Mr. Starnes. I have heard him on more than one occasion. I
wanted to know whether or not it was the policy of your organ-
ization to encourage your members to tune in ?
Mr. Kuhn. It is not the policy; if they want to do it, they can
do it.
Mr. Starnes. You do know that they send out frequent radio
broadcasts ?
Mr. Kuhn. I think they do; they have a real program.
Mr. Starnes. Both the German and Italian Governments do
that?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know about the Italian.
Mr. Starnes. The German Government does that?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And in those broadcasts they tell of the progress
being made by the national socialistic movement in the German
country ?
Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so, but am I responsible for that?
Mr. Starnes. I understand you are not, but they stress those
advantages.
Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so.
Mr. Starnes. They call on Germans everywhere to unite in an
effort to help the mother country.
Mr. Kuhn. Not long ago I heard a speech from Russia in
English.
Mr. Starnes. You carry a notice in the Weckruf concerning the
broadcasts, giving the time and place ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And that newspaper is distributed among the mem-
bers of your organization?
Mr. Kuhn. To everybody.
Mr. Starnes. And to the members of your organization?
Mr. Kuhn. If they buy them, it is all right.
Mr. Starnes. Do they not subscribe to the paper?
Mr. Kuhn. Some of them.
Mr. Starnes. Are they required to subscribe?
Mr. Kuhn. It is entirely voluntary.
The Chairman. Let me ask you a question right there. You say
you did not receive any communication from anyone in Germany
suggesting that matter?
Mr. Kuhn. My first or second trip?
The Chairman. The trip you made in 1936. You did not have
any suggestion from anyone in Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. No; outside of the fact that we had, of course, the
railroad ticket office, the traveling bureau made all the arrangements
for us.
3850 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. For that trip.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. You had no invitation or suggestion from any
agency in Germany with reference to that matter 2
Mr. Kuhn. Certainly not.
The Chairman. Have you ever corresponded with the Foreign In-
stitute at Stuttgart?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. I want you to understand my question. Have you
ever received any letters from the Foreign Institute of Stuttgart?
Mr. Kuhn. I might have received one.
The Chairman. You just received one?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Would you say you had not received more than
one?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; I do not think so.
The Chairman. Are you sure?
Mr. Kuhn. You say about that trip?
The Ch \irman. Or on any matter.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes: I received one.
The Chairman. The onlv letter you ever received from the Foreign
Institute was on one occasion?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. When was that?
Mr. Kuhn. It was around 1936; it was after I came back from
Germany.
The Chairman. Do you have that letter?
Mr. Kuhn. I have it.
The Chairman. In your files?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I have it.
The Chairman. What was the letter about?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall; it was just thanking me for a good
time. I will be willing to give you that letter.
The Chairman. In that letter, which hns been identified here by
Peter Gissibl as being a letter you received from the Foreign Insti-
tute, the Foreign Institute wrote Peter Gissibl as follows [reading] :
Weeks ago
Mr. Kuhn. That letter was written to me?
The Chairman. No; to Peter Gissibl.
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know anything about that.
The Chairman. I am goimr to ask you if the statements in this
letter are true, to your knowledge. In the letter it says [reading] :
Weeks ago I write to Fritz Kuhn, suggesting a trip to Germany for bund
members.
Did von ever <ret such a letter from the Foreign Institute ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; never.
The Chairman. That is absolutely untrue?
Mr. Kuhn. That is absolutely untrue. Peter Gissibl wrote to
whom?
The Chairman. This was a letter written by the Foreign Institute
to Petev Gissibl.
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know anything about that. Who signed that
letter?
food
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3851
The Chairman. That is signed by the Foreign Institute
Mr. Kuhn. Who signed it?
The Chairman. It is signed by the Foreign Institute.
Mr. Kuhn. Who — it was a man that signed it.
■•&j
The Chairman. This is a copy. This does not show the signa-
ture on the letter.
Mr. Kuhn. What is a letter without a signature?
The Chairman. We have the original letter.
Mr. Kuhn. What was the signature — I know whose signature
that is.
The Chairman. I do not know; do you know whose signature it
was ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. But you just said you know.
Mr. Kuhn. I can think who it was.
The Chairman. How are you able to know the signature?
Mr. Kuhn. Because it is Peter Gissibl.
The Chairman. I did not say Peter Gissibl was the man who
signed it.
Mr. Kuhn. You said the letter is addressed to Peter Gissibl and
his brother is in the institute, do you not see ?
Mr. Starnes. His brother is in the Ausland?
Mr. Kuhn. Sure ; he was at that time. Where he is now I do not
know ; I do not write to Fritz Gissibl any more.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Kuhn, you said you went to Germany in July
1936?
Mr. Kuhn. We sailed on the 20th or the 22d of July; at the end
of July we sailed.
Mr. Thomas. How long did you stay in Europe ?
Mr. Kuhn. We arrived on the 1st of August 1936, and I was back
in New York on the 30th of September.
Mr. Thomas. The 30th of September?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; I was there about 2 months.
Mr. Thomas. Did you visit any countries other than Germany ?
Mr. Kuhn. Not in 1936; no.
Mr. Thomas. You did not visit France?
Mr. Kuhn. I did in 1938.
Mr. Thomas. You visited France in 1938?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Thomas. Yesterday you made some reference to a visit that
Mr. Bernard Baruch made on Mr. Stalin; do you recall that refer-
ence?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Since yesterday have you had an opportunity to
check the statement you made yesterday?
Mr. Kuhn. No; my office is in New York.
Mr. Thomas. You said, I believe, that Mr. Baruch called on Mr.
Stalin?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. And then when he returned here he compared Soviet
Russia with the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Thomas. You said you saw a statement to that effect in various
New York papers?
3852 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Thomas. Did you see that statement yourself in various New
York papers?
Mr. Kuhn. I had the clippings. I could make that a little clearer;
in his company was Mr. Untermeyer, and they asked Mr. Untermeyer
why he came back with a nose bloody.
Mr. Stabnes. That is Samuel Untermeyer?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; Samuel Untermeyer, 80 years old.
Mr. Thomas. You saw those statements in the New York papers?
Mr. Kuhn. In the New York papers.
Mr. Thomas. What New York papers ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall.
Mr. Thomas. You said, I believe, "all the leading New York
papers?"
Mr. Kuhn. I said the "leading New York papers," at least four
or five.
Mr. Thomas. Would that include the New York Herald Tribune?
Mr. Kuhn. I cannot make a statement on that.
Mr. Thomas. Would it include the New York Times ?
Mr. Kuhn. Either one. I have the clippings out of those different
papers, and I will be willing to send them to you.
Mr. Thomas. Will you send those clippings to our attorney or
counsel ?
Mr. Kuhn. Of course.
Mr. Thomas. One of our investigators checked these papers to see
whether that statement appeared and he has been unable to find any
such statement.
Mr. Kuhn. I will furnish you with such a statement.
Mr. Thomas. In reference to that, I have a statement here I want to
lead to you. This is an article which appeared in the New York
Times on September 15, 1936, and I will read the article as follows
[reading] :
Bernard M. Baruch, commenting yesterday on a statement published in
the Action Franchaise —
You have heard of that newspaper?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas (reading) :
which said he had participated in conferences with Ambassador William 0.
Bullitt and Maxim Litvinoff, Soviet Foreign Commissar, said : "I never had an
interview with Bullitt and Litvinoff near Vichy or any other place and denied
the story at that time. I never heard the sound of Litvinoff's voice nor have
I ever had any communication with him. I opposed recognition of Russia
and opposed having relations with her.
"When it was suggested that I might help revamp the transportation and
industries of Russia, I expressed my sympathies with the Russian people, but
said that nothing I could devise woidd suit because I believe in personal
selectivism, reward of personal initiative, and a freedom of the individual
that was not contemplated by communism."
What you probably referred to yesterday as the meeting he had
with Stalin may have been the reported meeting with Litvinoff;
is (hat not possible?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I just want to point out that he did not deny
that he saw Stalin. I have looked it up in the Jewish Examiner.
Mr. Thomas. You still claim that he saw Stalin ?
Mr. Kuhn. I was not there; I cannot claim that.
m
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3853
Mr. Thomas. You saw the newspaper in which
Mr. Kuiin. Absolutely.
Mr. Thomas (continuing). In which it was reported that he saw
Stalin.
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
I Mr. Thomas. Do you recall seeing this article?
Mr. Kuiin. No; I do not recall that.
Mr. Thomas. Do you recall seeing something after that time that
he had a meeting with Litvinoff?
Mr. Kuhn. I heard about it.
Mr. Thomas. You do recall that?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. You know this paper Action Francaise; you know
this newspaper ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. You know that is one of the leading Fascist papers
probably in the world?
Air. Kuhn. Fascist papers? We do not call them Fascist papers.
Mr. Thomas. You know in Europe they consider this paper-
ikii
.m '■:
Mr. Kuhn. In France there is not any Fascist paper allowed. In
France there is a Nationalist Party.
Mr. Thomas. You know in France it is considered the leading
Fascist paper?
Mr. Kuhn. The leading nationalist paper.
Mr. Thomas. You believe there is a difference between nation-
llll'al alism in Germany and fascism in Italy?
Mr. Kuhn. Fascism in Italy?
Mr. Thomas. Yes.
Mr. Kuhn. Now you are getting over the same ground.
T ^' : Mr. Thomas. I am asking you another question : You believe there
is a difference between nationalism in Germany and fascism in Italy ?
Mr. Kuhn. I think so.
iii Mr. Thomas. There is a difference, you think?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; however, that French newspaper is the mouth-
piece of the Nationalist Party in France, but not the Fascist Party.
Mr. Thomas. Is there a difference in France between the Nation-
alist Party and the Fascist Party?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; of course there is.
Mr. Thomas. I always have considered the Nationalist Party in
Germany, the Nationalist Party in France, and the Nationalist Party
in Italy, all three as nazism or fascism.
Mr. Kuhn. Not the Nationalist Parties. The Nationalist Parties,
mostly
Mr. Thomas. At any rate, what I am trying to bring out is this :
You made a statement yesterday that Mr. Baruch had a meeting with
Mr. Stalin, and that that was in the leading New York papers.
Mr. Kuhn. I will furnish you with those clippings.
Mr. Thomas. How soon will you be able to get those clippings?
Can you send for them today so that we can get them tomorrow ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not think so, because two of my men are out of
town.
Mr. Thomas. Will you make certain that the committee counsel
receives these clippings, because we have been unable to find such
a statement in the New York papers.
iilianfl
i Drift,
..1 dor V.
pers
<>.
3854 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. I will be glad to send them to you.
Mr. Thomas. I want to bring out another point. Yesterday you
listed various units in the various States.
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mr. Thomas. One of the units was a unit in Buffalo.
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Thomas. As existing today.
Mr. Kuhn. As existing today.
Mr. Thomas. Is it not true that this unit you referred to in Buf-
falo has been discontinued ?
Mr. Kuhn. Discontinued for awhile.
Mr. Thomas. In June 1939 and changed its name in June 1939.
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Thomas. Did you ever hear that it changed its name t« the
Spring Garden Association?
Mr. Kuhn. The Spring Garden Association have nothing to do
with the bund. That is a business corporation, and it conducts a
camp.
Mr. Thomas. Did not this unit in Buffalo, after it began to find
out some of the things the bund stood for, decide to break away
from the bund and change its name to Spring Garden Association?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Thomas. Who was the leader of the unit in Buffalo?
Mr. Kuhn. It was Mr. Lubrecht.
Mr. Thomas. Who is it now?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall.
Mr. Thomas. Is the name Emil Auer?
Mr. Kuhn. He is the president of the Spring Garden Associa-
tion.
Mr. Thomas. Was he not the leader of the group in Buffalo?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; never was.
Mr. Thomas. The unit still exists in Buffalo?
Mr. Kuhn. The unit still exists in Buffalo.
Mr. Thomas. I noticed yesterday in listing these various units in
New Jersey, you mentioned one in Bergen County.
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Thomas. That was the only county unit you mentioned
throughout the entire United States.
Mr. Kuhn. No: I did not say that. That is the name of the
unit because Bergen County has some small towns and they all meet
in New Milford. You know what that is.
Mr. Thomas. They met at the home of Caroline Mead.
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. (Tlier,
Mr. Thomas. Where is Caroline Mead now?
Mr. Kuhn. So far as I know, she has gone to Germany.
Mr. Thomas. She went to Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I think so.
Mr. Thomas. Do you happen to know why she went to Germany? | T1
Have you had any correspondence with her since she has been in
Germany ?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; I do not know when she left.
Mr. Thomas. You went out there and visited at her home?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; she told me she was making a trip in Germany to
find out whether all these stories are true. That would be very good
if a lot of people would do that.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3855
Mr. Thomas. Do you know how long she will stay in Germany?
Mr. Kuiin. How do I know ''.
Mr. Thomas. You visited at her home and you ought to know her
pretty well.
Mr. Kuhn. Who said that?
Mr. Thomas. If I visited at your home I would get to know you
pretty well.
Mr. Kuiin. I have been out there when they have had a meeting
there. There was a large library there for a meeting place.
Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether she went to Germany to stay
permanently?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not think so ; her husband has business here.
Mr. Thomas. You are not certain about that?
Mr. Kuhn. She did not talk to me about that. She is making a
trip to Germany; what is wrong about that?
I will tell you one thing, that the General Attorney, Mr. Murphy,
once was talking in our meeting.
Mr. Thomas. Who did you say?
Mr. Kuhn. The General Attorney.
Mr. Thomas. The Attorney General of the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. He talked at your meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. He talked at our meeting.
Mr. Thomas. Where was that meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. In the German House in Detroit.
Mr. Thomas. What year was that?
Mr. Kuhn. That was 1936. He was Governor at that time, after
he was mayor.
Mr. Thomas. Was he a speaker at the meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. He was a speaker at the meeting; he was invited to
speak, and he spoke about 10 minutes.
Mr. Thomas. He was invited to address the meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. To attend the meeting.
Mr. Thomas. Invited to attend the meeting in Detroit ?
Mr. Kuhn. In Detroit.
Mr. Thomas. And he accepted the invitation and spoke there ?
Mr. Kuhn. For about 10 minutes.
Mr. Thomas. What was the topic of his speech?
(l{ t]j Mr. Kuhn. He talked about the German element in general, about
|lllS! good citizens.
Mr. Thomas. Did he praise the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; he did not praise the bund.
(Thereupon, a recess was taken until 1: 15 p. m.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
The committee met pursuant to the taking of a recess at 1 : 15 p. m.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Going back to these letters which I believe you said you could
identify the signatures to.
Mr. Kuhn. If I see them.
The Chairman. If you see the letters you think you can identify
the signatures?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I don't know whose signatures they might be.
3856 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. I see. Here is one letter to Peter Gissibl, dated
June 14, 1938, from Stuttgart. I will let you look at this letter and'
see if you can identify the signature.
Mr. Kuhn. I can hardly read that name.
The Chairman. You never saw the signature before?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. You never received any letter from that person
yourself?
Mr. Kuhn. I can't spell the name. I think it is Moshack.
The Chairman. Moshack; yes, that is the name. You are not
familiar with that signature?-
Mr. Kuhn. No; not familiar with it.
The Chairman. Never saw it?
Mr. Kuhn. I saw it — I saw him when he was here; I know Mr.
Moshack.
The Chairman. You saw him in the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; on a visit.
The Chairman. Was he ever a member of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. No; never.
The Chairman. When was he over here on a visit?
Mr. Kuhn. I think it was in 1937.
The Chairman. In 1937?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. You knew that he was connected with the Foreign
Institute at Stuttgart, didn't you?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes — I didn't know it until he told me.
The Chairman. Until he told you?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. And that was in 1937?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. When he told you that?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. D0l
The Chairman. And did you just meet him on the one occasion? J{r'
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. f]ie'
The Chairman. When you saw him did you have any discussion )[r jj'
with him with reference to supplying you with information?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. Nothing of that sort. What was the occasion of
your meeting him?
Mr. Kuhn. On his visit to the United States.
The Chairman. On his visit to the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Did he call upon you?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. He called upon you when you were in New York
at that time?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Had you known him in Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. You knew him in Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Did he serve with you during the war?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
rtec
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3857
The Chairman. When did you become acquainted with him in
Germany i
Mr. Kdhn. I met him in 1936 in Stuttgart.
The Chairman. In 1936?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Which was the time of his visit?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Which you have testified about before.
Mr. Kuhn. He was over here in 1936, not 1937.
The Chairman. 1936 was when he was here?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. After you had returned from Germany on the
occasion of the visit at the time you saw Hitler?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. As a matter of fact, he came on the same boat
with me.
The Chairman. He came on the same boat with you at that time?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. So you saw him quite often on the boat?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, only a few times. He was traveling first class.
The Chairman. He was traveling first class?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. But you did see him on the boat ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. And did you discuss the bund's affairs with him
on that occasion?
Mr. Kuhn. No; not at all.
The Chairman. Not at all?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
The Chairman. He writes Mr. Gissibl:
You will have received by now my letter of April 11 in regard to a Mr. Roth
who will go to you this summer.
Do you know Mr. Roth ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. Did you know what he meant by Mr. Roth?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. Did a Mr. Roth ever call upon you?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman (reading) :
I wrote you earlier that I would investigate Roth. I did so. No new informa-
tion has come in. I repeat, therefore, my request to you to in every way further
this plan and to write me as soon as possible.
Have you anv idea about the plan?
Mr. Kuhn. I haven't any idea what Mr. Gissibl referred to.
The Chairman. Mr. Gissibl was your fiihrer?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. You appointed him?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. And he was the responsible head of a big portion
of the organization?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. And you have no idea what he meant by "the
plan"?
3858 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. By "this plan"?
Mr. Kuhn. Not the slightest.
The Chairman. Was there any plan of that kind in the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. That letter was written in 1938 ?
The Chairman. June 14, 1938.
Mr. Kuhn. Gissibl wasn't in the bund then.
The Chairman. He wasn't a member of the bund when this letter
was written in 1938?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Didn't you testify that you removed him from the
bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. After he testified before this committee last year?
Mr. Kuhn. I didn't know when he testified last year. It was in
1937; in 1937.
Mr. Starnes. I know; it was after he came before this committee?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know when he was here.
The Chairman. Why did you remove him?
Mr. Kuhn. Because he didn't conduct himself as a man that
should be in our organization.
The Chairman. You knew this correspondence was surrendered
under subpena.
Mr. Kuhn. I didn't know you had any correspondence like that.
The Chairman. Oh, yes; you knew about it; you had some article
in your paper about it.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. And you knew about it,
Mr. Kuhn. That was after this investigation.
The Chairman. Didn't that have anything to do with the removal?
Mr. Kuhn. What, the correspondence?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Kuhn. Might be.
The Chairman. Might be.
Mr. Kuhn. Part of them.
The Chairman. All right. So you knew nothing about Mr. Roth?
Mr. Kuhn. I did not know anything about Mr. Roth.
The Chairman. Xow here is a letter dated May 20, 1938. I will
let you see the individuals names and let you identify the signature
that the letter is from [handing letter to witness].
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I can. Right.
The Chairman. Who is that man?
Mr. Kuhn. Well the man is Vennekohl.
The Chairman. What position did he have in the Foreign Insti-
tute?
Mr. Kuhn. I did not know he was in the Foreign Institute.
The Chaibman. What is the letterhead; what letterhead is it?
Mr. Kuhn. That is the organization, private organization, in
Berlin.
The Chairman. What i^ the name that you find there?
Mr. Kuhn. Volksbund fur das Deuchschtun in Ausland.
The Chairman. Will you tell us what that means in English?
Mr. Kuhn. An organization, league for Germans in foreign coun-
tries.
lefts
n the
arl
win
lift*!
b that
Diked
;e that.
article
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3859
The Chairman. Whal (
Mr. Kuun. League for the Germans in foreign countries.
The Chairman. Now did you ever hear of that league before?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Have you ever received any communications from
that league?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Letters and literature from it?
Mr. Kuhn. I mentioned that some of the things I referred to be-
fore when I testified, that I got some books from it.
The Chairman. You got some books from that league?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. They supplied you with free publication?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; they did once.
The Chairman. For the dissemination among bund members?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. I mean, the literature was made available for
:hem ?
Mr. Kuhn. For the local units.
The Chairman. Local units?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you ever meet that man himself?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. In Berlin when you were there?
Mr. Kuhn. I didn't meet him in Berlin.
The Chairman. Where did you meet him?
Mr. Kuhn. In Portland, Oreg.
The Chairman. Portland, Oreg.?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. What year was that?
Mr. Kuhn. 1936.
The Chairman. 1936?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. He was over here on a visit?
Mr. Kuhn. No; he was here, I don't know how long.
The Chairman. He was living here?
Mr. Kuhn. An immigrant.
The Chairman. He never became a citizen of the United States.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes: he was.
The Chairman. He was ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; to my knowledge he was.
The Chairman. Was he a member of the bund ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. He was?
Mr. Kuhn. He was a local leader at one time.
The Chairman. He wTas one of the unit leaders in Portland?
I Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. When did he seek to be a unit leader?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I don't know exactly. I think he went back
1936.
The Chairman. He went back to Germany in 1936?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; to the best of my knowledge.
P' The Chairman. Has been there ever since?
Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so.
moval I
I will
Instil
ite.
lit!
3860 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. And he is now conducting this league for Ger-
mans abroad?
Mr. Kdhn. He is associated with it, I suppose.
The Chairman. What position does he hold, do you know ?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know.
The Chairman. He is an assistant, in other words?
Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so.
The Chairman. Well, he writes letters on the stationery, in its
behalf?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. So he must be with the league in some way.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. But really is a citizen of the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. He was.
The Chairman. He was?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. How did he cease to be a citizen after he was a
citizen; how did he cease to be?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know; I don't know that he was one; I said
to the best of my knowledge.
The Chairman. You said that he was a citizen, did you not?
Mr. Kuhn. To the best of my knowledge ; yes.
The Chairman. So that he would have to sever his citizenship,
would he not?
Mr. Kuhn. Well. I don't know.
The Chairman. What would he have to do to cease to be a citizen
of the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I suppose he would have to fill out an applica-
tion the same as he has to do here.
The Chairman. You don't know anything about that ?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know anything about it.
The Chairman. Has he returned from Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. Not to my knowledge.
The Chairman. The only communication you have received since
he went back to Germany was when he sent you these books?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. About 200 books?
Mr. Kuhn. I said about two dozen books.
The Chairman. About two dozen?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. And that is the only communication you have ever
had from him?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. What are his initials — E. A. Vennekohl
Mr. Kuhn. uE. A." means in behalf of.
The (
Mr.]
The
Mr.]
The
Mr.K
TheC
Mr.
The i
Mr, |j
The (
Mr.]
Mdm
Mr. J,
Hie |
Mr. I
The Chap-man. "E. A." are not his initials. Apparently the first
initial is "N". ■ Mr.K
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know his first name. I TW
The Chairman. What does it mean when these initials are on it? \;, j-
Mr. Kuhn. It means if you are in position to demand me to write T ;, , ,
a letter I put the E. A. on it. ]J j-
The Chairm <nt. This means that the letter is written for the boss? r
Mr. Kuhn. For the head. I )(r t-
The Chairman. For the head of this institution ?
i
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3861
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. The name is Vennekohl. The first name — initial
apparently is X. It doesn't show what the initials are. I cannot
tell from here what it is.
Xow this league has an official representative in this country, does
it not '.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Chairman. What is his name?
Mr. Kuhn. OrgeU.
Mr. Whitlky. That is Gunther Orgell?
Mr. Kuhn. OrgeU.
The Chairman. Orgell; Gunther? You are very well acquainted
with him?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I know him; yes.
The Chairman. Does he live in New York?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Is he a member of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. Has he ever been a member of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. At no time?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. How long has he been a representative of this
league in the United States?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know that.
The Chairman. You don't know that?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. What is his position here?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know.
The Chairman. Has he ever made speeches for the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. No; he never made speeches.
The Chairman. Has he ever attended meetings for the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. It might be.
The Chairman. Might be?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. He might attend meetings?
Mr. Kuhn. WTell if he wished to; I couldn't say. There may be
any number present.
The Chairman. I understand.
Mr. Kuhn. It might be, of course, that he might be there but I
could not say.
The Chairman. Did you ever see him ?
Mr. Kuhn. I never saw him at a meeting.
The Chairman. You never saw him at any meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. I never saw him at a meeting.
The Chairman. Did you ever see him at a conference?
Mr. Kuhn. I saw him in my office.
The Chairman. Many times?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, no; once in every 6 months.
The Chairman. Once in every 6 months?
Mr. Kuhn. Might be oftener.
The Chairman. Might be 3 months?
Mr. Kuhn. Might be.
The Chairman. Might be 2 months?
94931— 39— vol. 6 11
3862 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. But might be 3 months?
Mr. Kuhn. Might be.
The Chairman. What has been the occasion of his visits to your
office; in connection with your business?
Mr. Kuhn. I haven't any business.
The Chairman. Business of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. He just would come to see you to say "Howdy"?
Mr. Kuhn. Howdy do.
The Chairman. How do you. do?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; that is the way they would say it in Texas. How
do they say it in Alabama?
The Chairman. Has he ever been to see you in connection with
any business?
Mr. Kuhn. Not with the exception of the blue candles.
The Chairman. Blue candles?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. What sort of business was that ?
Mr. Kuhn. He had some blue candles.
The Chairman. He had some blue candles?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. So that you have talked with him
Mr. Kuhn. I got some blue candles.
The Chairman. The blue candles were for your organization?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. I mean for the organization, not you ?
Mr. Kuhn. For everybody.
The Chairman. For everybody in the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. No; everybody could buy them if they wanted to. Sor
we bought some.
The Chairman. You bought some blue candles from him?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. And that is the only matter you ever had up
with him?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about what the purpose
of this organization in Germany is?
Mr. Kuhn. It is to contact, so far as I know, to have contact
with German citizens all over the world.
The Chairman. All over the whole world?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. He says here in the letter to Mr. Gissibl :
We wrote you yesterday that 3,000 placards for the SangerfVst will reach
you through Orgell.
Mr. Kuhn. He writes that to Gissibl?
The Chairman. Yes; I am not trying to indicate that you ever
got such a letter from him.
Mr. Kuhn. No. It is funny that you have a great deal of corre-
spondence with Gissibl.
The Chairman. That is correct. All the rest of it you had ordered
destroyed.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr,
kl
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3863
The Chairman. Sure. [Continuing] :
For several reasons we are having the placards packed in 10 separate parcels,
of which two go to each of the following :
I do not know that I can pronounce the names. The first is Fried -
rich Schlenz.
Do you know him?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. You never heard of him?
Mr. Kuhn. He has no connection with the bund.
The Chairman. Karl Moeller. Do you know him ?
Mr. Kuhn. Where is he ; Chicago ?
The Chairman. He does not give the address.
Mr. Kuhn. I know Karl Moeller in New York.
The Chairman. You know a Karl Moeller in New York?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. And to Karl Kraenzle. Do you know him?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. You never heard of him ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. Orgell, and two to you.
Please inform your coworkers of the same and see that the expenses of
duty he taken care of. Herr Orgell will later reimburse you. It was the
simplest and the only way the placards could be sent to reach you in time.
Mr. Starnes. Mr. Orgell has been in your office?
Mr. Kuhn. That is Mr. Orgell.
Mr. Starnes. You know that Mr. Orgell— you say that he has
come to your office a number of times.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And you knew, of course, that Mr. Orgell was regis-
tered here with the State Department as a Nazi ?
Mr. Kuhn. He was registered in New York
Mr. Starnes. He was registered as a Nazist propagandist.
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes (continuing). For spreading propaganda and enlight-
ment throughout the world.
Mr. Kuhn. That is a misrepresentation again.
The Chairman. What is the fact?
Mr. Whitley. Here is his registration.
Mr. Kuhn. He is registered in New York, the State of New
York.
The Chairman. He is registered with the State Department, over
here in the State Department?
Mr. Whitley. Yes; the State Department has his registration.
The Chairman. Carl Gunther Orgell.
Mr. Whitley. Gunther Orgell.
Mr. Kuhn. I did not say Gunther; you said that.
The Chairman. Let me see his registration.
Name of registrant : Carl G. Orgell.
Status of registrant (individual, partnership, association, or corporation) :
Individual.
Principal business address : Great Kills, Staten Island, N. Y.
Name of foreign principle or principles : D. V. A. Society.
That is a society for people of Germanic extraction.
3864 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. That is the society you just had the letterhead of.
The Chairman (reading) :
Address : Berlin ; W-30 Martin Luther Street, 97/Germany.
Comprehensive statement of registrant : Nature of business of registrant :
Private, membership of society originating something over 50 years ago as
German school society. Members pay their dues and with this money, children
of people of German stock outside the German Reich are supported ; schools
are built ; books furnished ; scholarships granted, etc. This work has been
carried on since over 50 years ago, mostly in southern Europe, Rumania,
Poland, etc.
Recently also private German (so-called educational) schools in the United
States received free of charge books, primers, and so forth. Sample enclosed.
You have referred to books from this society.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Publications of this society pointed out in the
correspondence. He was recommending books, and in some cases
delivered these books.
Now, do you know anything about these 3,000 placards that were
sent over by him ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not ; no. And you can see that the society was
formed some 50 years ago, so you can see that it was not formed
after Hitler was in power. It was not something that came out
afterwards; but was there before Hitler was in power; was some
50 years ago.
The Chairman. Is it not a fact that you get the officers of this
foreign institution to check up on the applicants for the bund.
Mr. Kuhn. I never ; it never checked up on them.
The Chairman. It never has checked upon any ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. Here is another letter dated April 22, 1938, ad-
dressed to Dear Comrade Gissibl:
We are sending you today one copy of our educational paper Volkdeutscher
Ruf.
intended only for the Reich, that in July will appear for the American-German
following.
Mr,
What paper is that?
Mr. Kuhn. The Volksdeutscher? ';
The Chairman. Yes. Did you ever hear of that paper?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you ever get that paper ?
Mr. Kuhn. Once in a while ; yes.
The Chairman. You do get the paper?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman (reading) :
hVi
Mr.]
The
Mr.
Do you know what is meant by "American-German following"?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; you would have to ask Mr. Gissibl.
The Chairman. I see. Now, did you request this particular edition )[,.
of this paper that was intended for German-American following?
Mr. Kuhn. No. (^
The Chairman. You did not request it ? |
Mr. Kuhn. I get it once in a while but haven't much time to read it.
The Chairman (reading) :
In this number we should like a report on the German song in the fight for
the upholding of Germandom in America.
: for
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3865
Perhaps a suitable article will be found in one of the festival number of Singers-
paper, if not, perhaps you can get a suitable singer to write us such a report
for the July number.
Here is another letter also signed by the same man.
I note in a letter here by Moshack, that he said on April 11
Mr. Kuiin. That is addressed to whom?
The Chairman. It is addressed to Gissibl. It reads :
Enclosed is a copy of the letter I received a few days ago. I am getting in
touch with you immediately and asking you for an opinion regarding Studen-
assessor (chief Inspector of school studies) Roth's plan. I don't know him but
I am having him investigated. If he should prove to be in every way dependable
I am ready to support his plan to the utmost. I beg you in such a case to do the
same.
Do you know anything about the plan, uRoth's plan"?
Mr. Kuiin. No.
The Chairman. In this letter of April 2, 1938, by the same man to
Peter Gissibl, he says :
Deab ("omkade Gisbel : Unfortunately the visit of your Bf —
Do you know what that means ?
Mf.Kuhn. Bf?
The Chairman. Bund fuehrer?
Mr. Kuiin. Is that capital B, small f ; are they in capital letters?
The Chairman. Yes.
Unfortunately, the visit of your Bf. caused by apparently all too many compli-
cations that lie outside my compass has not yet led to any decided clearing tip.
I have not seen your Bf up until now.
In the record Mr. Gissibl testified that the ''Bf" was you. Do
you know what is meant by that : what matter he thought needed to
be cleared up?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. You will have to ask Mr. Gissibl.
The Chairman. You do not have any knowledge yourself?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. Did you know the man
Mr. Kuhn (interposing). As I told you before, I did not see the
man.
The Chairman. Do you know Colin Ross?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. What office did he have in the bund \
Mr. Kuhn. He never had an office in the bund.
The Chairman. Had no official connection?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. Was he associated with you in any respect?
Mr. Kuhn. I met him one year when he was a speaker at Turner
Hall ; he was a speaker there but we were not the sponsors.
The Chairman. Do you know where he is now ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not.
The Chairman. That is the only association you ever had with
Colin Ross?
Mr. Kuhn. Sure.
The Chairman. Do you know of any plans to provide for an
exchange of boys and girls on vacation, with Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you participate in the formation of that
plan?
3866 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Well, not directly; no.
The Chairman. When was it first proposed?
Mr. Kuhn. 1937.
The Chairman. In 1937?
Mr. Kuhn. I think so, to the best of my knowledge.
The Chairman. What was the first official information you had
with reference to the plan?
Mr. Kuhn. Around 1937, spring.
The Chairman. Who took it up with you at first ?
Mr. Kuhn. The youth leader.
The Chairman. The youth leader of the bund ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. What is his name?
Mr. Kuhn. Dinkelacker.
The Chairman. Was it his idea?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not think so.
The Chairman. It was a world proposition for every country, was
it not?
Mr. Kuhn. Surely — I do not know that. It was a proposition to
exchange students.
The Chairman. It was a proposition to exchange students?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you agree to the plan?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you cooperate in the plan?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, indirectly, through Mr. Dinkelacker. He did
the detail work.
The Chairman. Did he arrange for the exchange of students?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. How many different exchanges took place since
that time?
Mr. Kuhn. I think once a year.
The Chairman. Once every year?
Mr. Kuhn. Every year ; it was twice, I think, 1937 and 1938.
The Chairman. 1937 and 1938?
Mr. Kuhn. Twice.
The Chairman. How many students did you send over there in
1937?
Mr. Kuhn. Around 30.
The Chairman. Around 30 in 1937 ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. How many did you get in exchange?
Mr. Kuhn. I could not tell you that exactly.
The Chairman. You do not know how many you got in exchange?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. You did get some in exchange in 1937 and 1938,
too?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I think so.
The Chairman. What was the purpose of this exchange of stu-
dents?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is being done so long as I can think of. It Mr. K
was done all the time.
The Chairman. It was done all the time?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3867
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; to make a better understanding, to have some-
body study over there and somebody studying the situation here. It
is only youngsters.
The Chairman. To create a better understanding between the stu-
dents?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. It is all students. It is not the grown-up ones.
There is not any political background.
The Chairman. It had no political significance whatever?
Mr. Kuhn. Not at all.
The Chairman. Purely cultural?
Mr. Kuhn. Surely; educational.
The Chairman. Educational?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. So they could see the advantages in Germany, or
the progress that they had made there
Mr. Kuhn. They could see the advantages in the United States.
The Chairman. And the others could see the advantages in the
United States?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. I believe Mr. Whitley has some questions to ask.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, have you or your organization pledged
loyalty to any foreign country at any time?
Mr. Kuhn. Of course not.
Mr. Whitley. Has this been the consistent attitude of both you
and your organization from its beginning?
Mr. Kuhn. Of course.
Mr. Whitley. Have you or your organization at any time sup-
ported the idea of dictatorship as a desirable form of government for
this country?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not; no.
Mr. Whitley. Are you and your organization in favor of the
maintenance of freedom of speech, press, and assembly?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Particularly for minority opinion in this country?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Do you or your organization receive any direct or
indirect instructions from any foreign agency or power?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. What is the emblem of your organization?
Mr. Kuhn. It was described before.
Mr. Whitley. Will you describe it briefly, again?
Mr. Kuhn. A rising sun, and on top a swastika.
Mr. Whitley. Does your organization maintain any secret form
of organization in this country?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Does your organization receive any foreign sub-
sidies of any kind?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mi-. Whitley. Does your organization circulate printed matter
originating in any foreign country?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Does your organization advocate civil war or thc-
overthrow of the United States Government by force or violence?
3858 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not.
Mr. Whitley. Is your organization connected in any way with
any foreign agency which advocates these ideas?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, a few moments ago, the chairman made
reference to Dr. Colin Ross. I would like to have a little further
information about him. Does he have any official connection with
the German Government ?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know.
Mr. AVhitley. Or with any agency of the German Government?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. Not to your knowledge?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. What was the purpose of his trip to the United
States last year? I believe he left this country in March of this
year. He was here a number of months.
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he was speaking or lecturing
throughout the country?
Mr. Kuhn. He was lecturing; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know how many of your bund units he lec-
tured before?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. You know that he did lecture before some of them?
Mr. Kuhn. Not before the bund meetings ; not bund meetings.
Mr. Whitley. No bund meetings at all ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Not in New York ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Not in Chicago?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Not in Los Angeles?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. None at all. Do you know what groups he did lec-
ture before, private groups ?
Mr. Kuhn. He invited people himself.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he was taking motion pictures
during that tour ?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. As I said, I saw him once after a speech
he delivered at Turner Hall, New York.
Mr. Whitley. Had you known him prior to that time '.
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. He was speaking at Turner Hall in New York; was
that a bund meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. It was not a bund meeting. But we were there.
Mr. Whitley. Was it sponsored by the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. He called it.
Mr. Whitley. He called the meeting himself, and the bund members
attended?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. As far as you know, he had no official connection
with the German Government?
Mr. Kuhn. Not to my knowledge.
tlieiv v
P
«
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3869
Mr. Whitney. Did you know he was registered with the State De-
partment in the United States as a foreign propagandist?
Mr. Kuhn. I did not know that.
Mr. Whitley. You did not know that?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. And he stated he was in this country for the purpose
of lecturing and for the purpose of taking motion pictures. Did you
know that?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I did not.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know what his connection with Germany
is?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; I do not.
Mr. Whitley. Does the German-American Bund in New York or
elsewhere have an official doctor who looks after the applicants or the
members of the youth movement?
Mr. Kuhn. We do not have any official doctor. We have a certain
doctor to which we send youngsters before they go to camp, to be
examined.
Mr. Whitley. For physical examination?
Mr. Kuhn. Or it is a private doctor, whatever we please to do.
Mr. Whitley. But you do recommend a certain doctor, a particu-
lar doctor, for those examinations?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; we do not. We recommend somebody, if parents
are not able to pay their family doctor.
Mr. Whitley. Is the doctor to whom the applicants for the camps
are sent paid by the bund ?
Mr. Kuhn. No. He is not paid by the bund. He is paid by the
parents.
Mr. Whitley. By the individuals who go to him?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Mr. Whitley, call the witness' attention to the fore-
word in the annual publication by Dr. Ross.
Mr. Whitley. In your yearbook, Mr. Kuhn
Mr. Kuhn. That is not my yearbook.
Mr. Whitley. In the yearbook
Mr. Kuhn. That is better.
Mr. Whitley. For 1937. which purports at least to be the year-
book for the German-American Bund
Mr. Kuhn. It is not so.
Mr. Whitley. You say it is not ; but Dr. Colin Ross has a page in
there with a statement under the caption, "Unser America"
Mr. Kuhn. That is out of his book — he wrote a book, Our America.
Mr. Whitley. You have read his book, have you not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I did.
Mr. Whitley. And you have only met him one time?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Does the German-American Bund in the United
States have any contacts or any connections with members of any
espionage service in this country?
Mr. Kuhn. Certainly not.
Mr. Whitley. None whatever. In other words, you have no con-
tacts with any individuals who are, or might be, connected with
espionage activities?
3870 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Of course not.
Mr. Whitley. What was the relation of the German-American:
Bund with Dr. I. T. Griebl, who fled this country in connection with
the recent prosecution of German spies in New York City?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, Dr. Griebl was not a member of the bund.
Mr. W'hitley. He was not a member, but he was recognized and
used by the bund as their official doctor in New York City, was he
not?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. You are personally acquainted with Dr. Griebl, are
you not?
Mr. Kuhn. I know him ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. You have been to his office ?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; I never was in his office.
Mr. Whitley. You have never been in his office ?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; never was.
Mr. Whitley. Has he been in }'our office?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. He never has?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. He was a doctor, prior to the time he fled to avoid
prosecution as a spy, who examined children for your camps, was
he not ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; he was not.
Mr. Whitley. He was not ?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; he was not.
Mr. Whitley. He was just a German doctor in New York City?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Reading from your official organ, the Weckruf, dated
June 23, 1938, page 5, column 2, the article makes reference to Dr.
I. T. Griebl, who was formerly active in a professional capacity for
German- American clubs. The article states that Dr. Griebl's suc-
cessor in that capacity will be Dr. A. K. Colbert. Would you like to
explain that?
Mr. Kuhn. He is the successor?
Mr. Whitley. His successor in the capacity as the doctor for the
German-American clubs — this is an announcement which appears in
your official paper.
Mr. Kuhn. I do not have anything to do with German-American
clubs. Understand, he was successor in his office as doctor.
Mr. Whitley. This Dr. Colbert ?
Mr. Kuhn. Dr. Colbert ; yes ; successor in his office.
Mr. Whitley. And Dr. Griebl did not represent or serve any mem-
bers of the bund in a professional capacity as their doctor '.
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. If a member goes to him as a doctor,
that is not my business.
Mr. Whitley. But it was your business to run a notice in the
paper as to who his successor was as the official representative, or as
the professional representative, of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. He never was. That is not in the article.
Mr. Whitley. I will have to get the exact quotation from the
article.
Mr. Kuhn. He never was a member of the bund, I told you. I
saw the man once.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3871
Mr. Whitley. I did not say he was a member of the bund.
Mr. Kuhn. He never was a representative of the bund, or any-
thing.
Mr. Whitley. He was not their representative, but the bund used
him as their doctor, and you know it.
Mr. Kuhn. No; he did not, not officially. If somebody privately
goes there, what can I help it? It is not my business.
Mr. Whitley. You cannot help it, perhaps; but when he fled the
country you announced who his successor would be, so that the
members could go to the official successor.
Mr. Kuhn. That is a paid advertisement, I suppose.
Mr. Whitley. It is not an advertisement. It is an article appear-
ing on page 5, column 2.
Now, was Dr. Griebl ever connected, to your knowledge, with the
Friends of New Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. He was an official of that organization, was he not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What was his capacity or his official position?
Mr. Kuhn. So far as I know, he was once the president.
Mr. Whitley. He was the president. And when the German-
American Bund was organized, the Friends of New Germany was
dissolved.
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. And he did not continue on with the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not.
Mr. Whitley. Is there any reason why he dropped his identifica-
tion with the German organizations, his official identification?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. He never talked to me about it.
Mr. Whitley. You had no idea what his capacity was in this
country ?
Mr. Kuhn. No: I said I met the man once on the street; never
saw him in my office or his office.
Mr. Whitley. You were surprised when you saw that he had fled
the country to avoid prosecution?
Mr. Kuhn. I was; absolutely. I was surprised.
Mr. Starnes. You did not meet him at a national convention of
the Friends of New Germany in Philadelphia in 1935?
Mr. Kuhn. No; he was not there. I met him once before that in
a convention in New York in 1934.
Mr. St \rnes. He was not at the 1935 convention ?
Mr. Kuhn. He was not there.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, was your national secretary, Mr. James
Wheeler Hill, ever active in the German Intelligence Service?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. He was not?
Mr. Kuhn. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Whttley. Do you know whether he was ever attached to the
general staff of the German Army?
Mr. Kuhn. Certainly not ; I do not think so.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he. sometime subsequent to
1926. was sent on an assignment to eastern Asia for the German
Army in an intelligence capacity?
3872 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. No; but I do not think so, because — I do not know
anything about it. but the man is too young. In 1926 he was a
young fellow. I do not think so.
Mr. Whitley. I said ''subsequent to 1926."
Mr. Kuhn. That is what I say.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know what his relations were with Dr.
Griebl?
Mr. Kuhn. No: to my knowledge he did not have any connection
at all.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether he was associated with
Dr. Griebl or not ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. This morning, Mr. Kuhn, we Mere identifying some
agencies or organizations in Germany. I believe you have already.
in response to the chairman's questions, identified the V. A. in
Berlin, which is the league for Germans in foreign lands. Is that
organization a private organization or is it an official organization of
the Nazi Government?
Mr. Kuhn. So far as I know, it is a private organization.
Mr. Whitley. Just an independent, private organization?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; as stated by the chairman; it was founded 50
years ago.
Mr. Whitley. So that makes it a private organization?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, it was a private organization, to my knowledge.
Mr. Whitley. How about the Fichte Bund in Hamburg? Is that
the organization that you said you had received some literature
from ?
Mr. Kuhn. I never received any literature personally. I do not
know much about the Fichte Bund. I think it is a private or-
ganization.
Mr. Whitley. It has no official connection. You do know that it
sends out literature and material to various countries of the world?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Enlightenment?
Mr. Kuhn. I know they send some here. I do not know about
the whole world.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether it performs the same
functions so far as other countries are concerned?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know that.
Mr. Whitley. What about the World Service? What type of
organization is that?
Mr. Kuhn. That is a news agency which sends out news, just
like the Associated Press.
Mr. Whitley. Just like the Associated Press?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. A private enterprise?
Mr. Kuhn. A private enterprise.
Mr. Wh7tley. Do you ever receive any literature from them?
Mr. Kuhn. No. They send out weekly, or every 2 weeks, this
material.
Mr. Whitley. You published their material over a period of years
in your publication, Weckruf. did you not?
Mr. Kuhn. Some of them, yes; because the news is about 20 pages,
or something like that.
CN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3873
Mr. Whitley. It is just a private organization ?
Mr. Kuhn. I think so.
Mr. Whitley. A news service. Now, how about the Ausland In-
stitute or the Foreign Institute at Stuttgart. They are one and
the same, are they not?
Mr. Kuhn. What?
Mr. Whitley. The Ausland Institute is the same as the Foreign
Institute at Stuttgart; is it not?
Mr. Kuhn. I think so; yes.
Mr. Whitley. What is the nature of that organization?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know the nature.
Mr. Whitley. Nor any one connected with it?
Mr. Kuhn. I am not connected with it. No one of my organ-
ization is connected with it.
Mr. AVhitley. Do you know any one connected with it?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know who are the officials of that organ-
ization (
Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know about that?
Mr. Stabnes. Did you not state this morning that Fritz Gissibl
was connected with it?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but he is not the head.
Mr. Whitley. I did not ask you who the head was. Do you know-
anyone connected with it ?
Mr. Kuhn. Fritz Gissibil.
Mr. Whitley. Who else do you know that is connected with it?
Sometimes, when you have to remember, your memory is better.
Mr. Kuhn. Can't you put your questions clearer?
Mr. Whitley. That is perfectly clear; do you know anyone con-
nected with the Foreign Institute at Stuttgart?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes: I said Mr. Gissibl. I used to know him. And
if you say Mr. Moshack, I know him.
Mr. Stabnes. The German Government supports that institution
in part, does it not?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know ; you have to ask the German Govern-
ment. I do not know who supports the German Government.
Mr. Stabnes, Mr. Peter Gissibl testified
Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Peter Gissibl is not responsible to me or to any-
rTp f body else. I do not know what he says, if it is correct or not, If
he knows it. he knows more than I do.
Mr. Stabnes. At the time he testified before this committee, he
was the bund leader of one of your bund units; was he not?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Stabnes. And he testified that it was supported by Govern-
ment funds, from the German Government.
Mr. Kuhn. Then he knows more than I do.
Mr. Stabnes. I am not surprised at that.
Mr. Kuhn. There are a lot of people know more than you do;
don't you think so?
Mr. Stabnes. Do you know him?
• Mr. Kuhn. Don't make such remarks to me.
6 Mr. Stabnes. Do you know Hans Spanknoebel?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I used to know him.
•w
3874 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
St.
Mr.
Mr.
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Mr.
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Mr.i
Mr.'
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Mr.l
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1937.
Mr. i
Mr.I
Mr, I
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Mr. Starnes. When he was in this country, or when you were in
Germany ?
Mr. Kuhn. I never saw him in Germany.
Mr. Starnes. You knew him here?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. He was a former member of the Friends of New
Germany ?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. Was he ever a member of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Never.
Mr. Starnes. He never became an American citizen; did he?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know ; I do not think so.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know why he never did?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Was he identified with you and others in this "our
battle'' movement in this country since 1932?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Neither was Fritz Gissibl?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. He was identified with "our battle" ?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mr. Starnes. Was Dr. Griebl identified with your movement, "our
battle," in this country?
Mr. Kuhn. No; not in the bund.
Mr. Starnes. He was in the Friends of New Germany and the head
of it while that battle was going on in this country?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. Mr.ff
Mr. Whitley. Can you identify these individuals for me? Hugo Mr.Ki
Haas? Mr.W
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. Mr.Ki
Mr. Whitley. Will you identify him, please ?
Mr. Kuhn. He was once under the Friends of New Germany. He
was the youth leader. Mr. E
Mr. Whitley. Was he ever connected with the bund? Mr
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. When did he return to Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. He was gone when I came to New Mr. K
York. Mr. }
Mr. Whitley. Do you know what official position he now occupies
in Germany ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Or what his connection is ?
Mr. Kuhn. I think he has a government position, but I do not
know what he has there.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know Oscar Pfaus?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know him?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. You never came in contact with him when he was in
this country?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever come in contact with him in Ger-
many ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not know his name at all.
Mr. Kr
k
Mr. If,
I
H-
Gerl
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3875
Mr. Whitley. You do not know what organization, if any, he is
•connected with over there?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. What about Walter Kappe?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I know him.
Mr. Whitley. What was his position in this country? Was he
-connected with the bund?
Mr. Kuhn". He was connected with a newspaper.
Mr. Whitley. With a newspaper?
Mr. Kuhn. With our newspaper.
Mr. Whitley. Your newspaper?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. He was the editor until 1937, the beginning of
1937.
Mr. Whitley. He was the editor of Weckruf until 1937?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did he return to Germany?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Does he have any position in Germany at the pres-
ent time?
Mr. Kuhn. I think so.
Mr. Whitley. What is that ? Do you know ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know.
Mr. Whitley. How about Reinhold Walter?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was he connected with the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Not with the bund ; the Friends of New Germany.
Mr. Whitley. In what capacity?
Mr. Kuhn. He was once national chairman.
Mr. Whitley. Is he in this country at the present time ?
Mr. Kuhn. I cannot say that ; I think so. I met him by accident
about 3 weeks ago.
Mr. Whitley. In New York?
Mr. Kuhn. In New York.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he has any official position
■or connection with the German Government or any private agencies
in that country?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know ; I do not think so.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, reference was made this morning to
short-wave radio broadcasts from Germany. Are those broadcasts
which you advertise in your official organ, the Weckruf, under the
caption ''Tune in Berlin" — are they private or commercial broad-
casts, or are they officially sponsored by the German Government
■or the Nazi government?
Mr. Kuhx. I do not know that.
Mr. Whitley. They may be either one so far as you are concerned ?
Mr. Kuhx. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. They may be private?
Mr. Kuhx. Would not make a difference to me.
Mr. Whitley. How about phonograph records? There are quite
;a few German phonograph records sold in the country. Are they
put out by private concerns in Germany ?
Mr. Kuhx. I do not know.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know about that?
Mr. Kuhx. No: I do not know,
3876 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether they are purely private
or whether they are sponsored and put out by the German Govern-
ment ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not.
Mr. Whitley. I want to read a law which was passed in Ger-
many since the advent of the Nazi government.
Mr. Kuhn. Mi-. Chairman, do we have to go into the laws of
Germany or are we in the United States?
The Chairman. What is the pertinency of that, Mr. Whitley?
Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Chairman, I ask you, please
The Chairman. Let us find .out what the pertinency of this is first.
Mr. Whitley. I want to show that every medium and agency of
propaganda in Germany, by this proclamation or this law, comes
under the Nazi government.
Mr. Kuhn. Why don't you subpena the Nazi government?
The Chairman. Counsel is not asking you about that.
Mr. Whitley. I want to read this law
Mr. Kuhn. If there are some records, what has that to do with
un-American activities? If there are some German records here,
you can buy them in any store. You would have to bring out a law
that they cannot be sold.
The Chairman. You are not being asked to comment on it. You
want to introduce this for the record?
Mr. Kuhn. I object to it.
The Chairman. What is your objection?
Mr. Kuhn. What has that to do with this?
The Chairman. You have not anything to do with this. This is
something independent of your testimony.
Mr. Kuhn. My time is too valuable. I am not a Congressman.
Mr. Whitley. It is very short, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Make it brief, so the witness will not lose any of
his valuable time.
Mr. Kuhn. I still object.
Mr. Whitley. Incidentally, the original law, in German, is repro-
duced opposite the English translation, in this volume that I have in Xhe Ci
my hand. [Reading:]
First decree concerning the law regarding the establishment of a Reich cham-
ber of culture, November 1. 1933.
Mr. Kuhn. Is that book in German?
Mr. Whitley. The German is opposite the English translation.
I am reading the translation and you can translate it yourself later,
if you wish, to compare it.
Air. Kuhn. I will.
Mr. Whitley. The purpose of this is to show that every medium
of propaganda ; newspaper, press, radio, phonograph records, in
Germany, is under the control of the Government, so that anything
that comes into this country, printed matter, short-wave-radio broad-
casts, phonograph records, and so forth, has to be approved by the
Government, and is officially under the
Mr. Kuhn. I still object.
The Chairman. Do you take issue with that? Do you say that
is not true?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. I am in the United States. I will
tell you why. The United States would have to forbid German
Hied
lb.
Mr. R
vi
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3877
records to be sold. They are sold in every store. What has that
to do with our bund ( You have to investigate us, not the records
of Germany. I still object. That is why I need a lawyer. I do
not know whether 1 have the right to object.
The Chairman. This has not anything to do with your testimony.
All counsel proposes to do is to read these laws of Germany.
Mr. Kuhn. What has that to do with us (
Mr. Whitley. This is just a short page. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Krnx. 1 still object.
Mr. Whitley (reading):
First Decree Concerning the Law Regarding the Establishment of a Reich
Chamber of Culturk, November 1, 1933
On the basis of paragraphs 0 and 7 of the law regarding the establishment
of a Reich Chamber of Culture of the 22d of September 1933 ( Reich sgesetz-
blatt I. p. GOT) the following decree is issued:
1. Establishment of the chambers.
Paragraph 1. Upon the issuance of this decree the following organizations
receive the character of public corporations with the following names:
1. The Reich Union of German Musicians, Inc.: Reich Chamber of Music.
2. The Reich Union of Plastic Arts: Reich Chamber of the Plastic Arts.
3. The Reich Chamber of the Theater : Reich Chamber of the Theater.
4. The Reich League of German Authors, Inc. : Reich Chamber of Literature.
You 5. The R-Mch Working Community of the German Press: The Reich Chamber
of the Press.
6. The National Socialist Chamber of the Broadcast, Inc. : The Reich Cham-
ber of the Broadcast.
Paragraph 2. The chambers enumerated in paragraph 1 together with the
Reich Chamber of the Film are united in one public corporation which is
called the Reich Chamber of Culture.
There is the original German reproduced opposite the English
translation, so that any one who wants may compare it.
The Chairman. So that ail of these organizations, concerning
which we have had correspondence between them and the Chicago
post of the bund are really agencies of the German Government and
not private institutions?
Mr. Kuhn. It is not so.
The Chairman. That is not true (
Mr. Kuhn. It is not true.
The Chairman. Tell us what the truth is.
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know anything, but the committee has not
proved that. You have to prove it yet.
Air. Whitley. I read the law. The law places all of those agencies
under the Government. „♦
Mr. Kuhn. So far as radio is concerned, and the records arfe
concerned. May I make one suggestion? Why don't we try and
pass a law in the Congress that the German Government should
change their laws?
The Chairman. You are proposing that that be done in the United
States?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; because we are dealing here about things which
concern us. I have not any influence with what kind of laws they
pass there. It is none of my business. I am here in the United
States.
Mr. Whitlev. Mr. Chairman, let me read just a little further from
this same law.
940?,1— 30— vol. 6 12
tx
3878 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. I still object.
Mr. Whitley. This is section No. 3.
The task of the Reich Chamber of Culture is to promote German culture
with responsibility for the nation and the Reich. It must regulate the economic
and social affairs of the cultural professions and coordinate the endeavors of
the affiliated groups. This is to be done in cooperation with the members of
all active brandies embraced by it, under the leadership of the Reich Minister
for Popular Enlightenment and Propaganda.
Anyone who participates in any of those activities must come
under the Minister of Enlightenment and Propaganda and within the
meaning of this decree printing includes any sort of reproduction,
any sort of printed matter.
Whoever participates in production, reproduction, mental or technical elabora-
tion, dissemination, preservation, sale or furtherance of the sale of a cultural
product, must be a member of a branch of the Reich Chamber which has juris-
diction over his activity.
Under No. 7 we find this :
Within the meaning of this decree, printing includes any sort of reproduction
according to paragraph 2, No. 2 of the law regarding editors.
On page 13 there are the instructions to German educators going
abroad, issued by the Minister of Science and Education :
Every scientist, etc., who has made a lecture tour or study trip abroad, must
submit a report of his trip together with two copies, to be kept in the files of
the respective faculty or institution. I reserve the right to ask for these re-
ports. Reports which contain important political or politico-cultural observa-
tions or suggestions must be sent to me immediately without special request.
That is from the Deutsche Wissenschaft, Erziehung und Volksbilj
dung, Berlin, April 20, 1937, No. 8, p. 184.
As I have said, the original German, from which this is a trans-
lation, is to be found in this volume.
Now, there is a law having to do with foreign travel by university
teachers and students. It reads :
It has frequently been observed of late that Germans and especially professors
and students, when traveling abroad for cultural or scientific purposes, have
failed to establish contact with their local national official representatives.
Who would those be, Mr. Kuhn ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
Such contact is especially important in countries where Jewry occupies a
predominant influence in cultural affairs, and where emigrants seek to press
into the foreground in questions concerning German cultural life. In these
countries it is particularly necessary that German national guests, local or
official, shall be informed of these local relationships by the official national
representatives abroad.
Reference is made here to the foreign organization of the Nazi
Party. Is the bund a member of, or connected w7ith, that foreign
organization ?
Mr. Kuhn. I said no, before.
Mr. Whitley. It is not?
Mi-. Kuhn. You asked me that before.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever participated in any of the congresses
which are held annually for Germans living abroad?
Mr. Kuhn. Never.
Mr. Whitley. You have never participated in those?
i
i
QN-AMERIGAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3879
.Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever been present when one of those was
in progress?
Mi. Kuhn. Where, what?
Mr. Whitley. I will look that up, in just a minute.
Mr. Thomas. While he is looking that up, Mr. Kuhn, I want to
ask you a question. Are you acquainted with Frederick Franklin
Schrader ?
Mr. Kuhn. I know a Schrader. I do not know his first name.
Mr. Thomas. In New York City?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Frederick Franklin Schrader?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Are you acquainted with him?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes: if that is the Schrader I think; I do not know
his first name.
Mr. Thomas. How old a man is he, approximately? I am just
trying to find out if he is the same person.
Mr. Kuhn. High in the seventies, might be around 80.
Mr. Thomas. Is he a member of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; is that the one you mean ?
Mr. Thomas. Yes; do you know what his business is in New York?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know his business. I know he writes a few
articles for us once in a while.
Mr. Thomas. For you?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether he is in the publicity busi-
ness ?
Mr. Kuhn. He gets paid for that, for what he does. Outside of
that. I do not know.
Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether he represents the German
Government in this country?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no; I do not know. He does not.
Mr. Thomas. You are certain he writes articles?
Mr. Kuhn. He writes articles; yes.
Mr. Thomas. Do you know of any other articles he has written
than articles he has written for you?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know.
Mr. Thomas. I want to ask just one more question, Mr. Chairman.
Could you give me the address of the bund headquarters in Passaic,
N. J. ? You said you had a unit in Passaic.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes: I do not know the address. I can supply you
that.
Mr. Thomas. That is all.
Air. Starnes. Who was the national president of the Friends of
New Germany in 1932?
Mr. Kuhn. There was not any to my knowledge, Friends of New
Germany, in 1932.
Mr. Starnes. When was it organized?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know exactly.
Mr. Starnes. In 1933. who was the national leader of it in this
country ?
Mr. Kuhn. I think Fritz Gissibl.
w
3880 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. He was the first one, was he not? That is correct
is it not ?
Mr. Kuhn. Then it was Reinhold Walter.
Mr. Starnes Where is he now?
Mr. Kuhn. In New York. That is the man just mentioned.
Mr. Starnes. Then you had Spanknoebel. He was the head of
it in what year?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not think he was the head of it. He was depart-
mental leader, if I am right. I was in Detroit at that time, I do not
know exactly.
Mr. Starnes. When was Dr. Griebl the head of it \
Mr. Kuhn. Dr. Griebl was in 1934 for a very short period.
Mr. Starnes. Who was the president, who was the national leader
of it, the last leader, in 1934?
Mr. Kuhn. Dr. Shnook.
Mr. Starnes. Where is Dr. Shnook?
Mr. Kuhn. I think he is in Chicago.
Mr. Starnes. So of the three national leaders of the Friends of
New Germany, in 1933, 1934, and 1935, one was Fritz Gissibl.
Mr. Kuhn. That is correct.
Mr. Starnes. And the other was Dr. Griebl ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And the other was Dr. Shnook?
Mr. Kuhn. And Reinhold Walter.
Mr. Starnes. And Reinhold Walter ; yes. There were four heads
of the organization. Two of them never did become American citi-
zens; that is Griebl and Gissibl. is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know if Griebl did.
Mr. Starnes. They left this country, did they not \
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Dr. Griebl left in connection with the spy story that
broke at that time?
Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so.
Mr. Starnes. And Gissibl was recalled to Germany and works
there?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know he was recalled.
Mr. Starnes. He went back to Germany anyway.
Mr. Kuhn. He went back.
Mr. Starnes. And he works at this Ausland Institute. By the way,
do you know the German Ambassador, Hans Dieckhoff I
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. I know him.
Mr. Starnes. You had some conferences with him, in December
1938 and January 1939, have you not?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I had no conferences with him at all.
Mr. Starnes. None whatsoever?
Mr. Kuhn. None. I met him once socially.
Mr. Starnes. Where?
Mr. Kuhn. After the German Dav in 1936. I think he spoke
there.
Mi-. Starnes. Where?
Mr. Kuhn. In Madison Square Garden.
Mr. Starnes. At Buffalo?
Mr. Kuhn. Madison Square Garden is in New York.
Mr. Starnes. In the year 1936?
''oily
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3881
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I think so.
Mr. Starnes. Aiul you did not see him in New York City in
December L938 nor in January 1939?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I did not.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know the German consul in New York City?
head i
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[ (In r.r
Mr. Kuhn. There are a few of them, which one?
Mr. Stabnes. Do you know the one named Borgers?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
ends
Mr. Starnes. Did you have any conferences with him in December
1938 or January 1939 \
Mr. Kuhn. 1 had no conferences at all.
Mr. Starnes. Were you ever present at a meeting between the
German Ambassador, Hans Dieckhoff, and Mr. Borgers?
Mr. Kuhn. Never.
Mr. Starnes. Not at any time?
Mr. Kuhn. Never at any time.
Mr. Starnes. You are a chemical engineer?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Do you have any connection, official or unofficial,
with any chemical laboratories; located either in Chicago or in the
State of New Jersey?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Or in the State of West Virginia?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Have you ever worked for any laboratories or tor
any concerns that maintain laboratories in the city of Chicago?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Nor in the State of New Jersey?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Nor in the State of West Virginia?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Not at any time?
Mr. Kuhn. In these three States you just mentioned.
Mr. Starnes. By the way, have you ever worked with any or-
ganization that maintained any chemical laboratories in this country?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. What companies?
Mr. Kuhn. Ford Motor Co.
Mr. Starnes. Any other?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. None whatsoever?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. You have a local bund unit — several of them; I be-
lieve you said five, in New York Citv. is that right?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And you have one in Brooklyn?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Two in Brooklyn?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes: one is in South Brooklyn, Ridsewood.
Mr. Starnes. Then you have one at Newark, N. J. ?
Mr. Kuhn. Bronx. N. Y. : Manhattan. Astoria, Staten Island.
Mr. Starnes. You have one at Schenectady?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
iiv tkl
liewai
3882 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. You have some five or six in the State of Connecti-
cut ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. You have one near Waterbury or in Waterbury ?
Mr. Kuhn. Newberry, not Waterbury.
Mr. Starnes. Newberry?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Did you have one in Watertown, N. Y., or any-]
where near Watertown?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. You have one in Baltimore?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. You have two in Philadelphia \
Mr. Kuhn. One.
Mr. Starnes. One in Philadelphia. You have one in Boston?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Is Springfield located near Boston — Springfield,
Mass. ?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know how far it is away, about 60 miles.
Mr. Starnes. You do not have one at Waterbury, Conn., you say ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Has that one gone out of existence? It was pub-
lished in this yearbook of 1937 as being at Waterbury, Conn.
Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is not in existence any more.
Mr. Starnes. That is not in existence any more. You have one
in Buffalo?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. That is where your organization originally started, |
your national organization?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. You have one in Cleveland, Ohio?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. You have one in Dayton, Ohio?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And at Detroit, Mich. ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And at Gary, Ind.?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starne*. And at Hammond, Ind.?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. On the west coast, you have one at Los Angeles '.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And one at San Diego?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. And one at San Francisco?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And one at Seattle?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And you have one at Portland?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. The greatest portion of your membership is in New
York, is it not?
Mr. Kuhn. In the East; yes.
Mr. Starnes. How many would you say?
life.
QN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3883
Mr. Kuhn. 1 don't know. I never figured that out.
Mr. Starnes. Can yon make a rough estimate, Mr. Kuhn?
Mr. Kuhn. I would say about 40 percent.
Mr. Starnes. About 40 percent in New York State?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; figuring New Jersey.
Mr. Starnes. Is (here any significance in locating these folks that
are units, or whatever you call them? Is there one in Baltimore?
Mr. Kuhn. They have one in Baltimore; yes.
Mr. Starnes. And in Brooklyn and South Brooklyn?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Have you any in the State of Virginia?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. What place?
Mr. Kuhn. Wheeling, W. Va.
Mr. Starnes. West Virginia ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; and Richmond, Va.
Mr. Starnes. You have one at San Antonio, Tex., have you not?
Mr. Kuhn. Right.
Mr. Starnes. Who is the leader of that one at San Antonio?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't recall. I told you I would give you a list.
Air. Starnes. It is Carl Beavers, is it not?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Has he ever been the leader there?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. Just to enlighten me, will you refresh your memory
now and tell me who is the leader of the unit at Birmingham?
Mr. Kuhn. I can't recall it. I told you I would give you a list.
<mteii|(Isn't that enough?
Mr. Starnes. You say there is one at Birmingham?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And one at Miami, Fla.?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And one at Memphis, Tenn.?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And one at Albuquerque?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Starnes. How long has that one been at Albuquerque?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh. 6 or 7 months.
Mr. Starnes. How many organizers do you have?
Mr. Kuhn. Organizers?
Mr. Starnes. Yes.
Mr. Kuhn. We have one organizer.
Mr. Starnes. Who is that, Mr. Kuhn?
Mr. Kuhn. That is Mr. Elmer.
Mr. Starnes. Does he work without a salary ?
Mr. Kuhn. He works without a salary.
Mr. Starnes. He gets his traveling expenses?
Mr. Kuhn. His traveling expenses; yes.
Mr. Starnes. Do you have your traveling expenses paid?
Mr. Kuhn. If I am going outside New York ; yes.
\> Mr. Starnes. Do you have a reerular expense account set up in
your national budget for your office?
Mr. Kuhn. We have our special account for traveling expenses.
3884 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. Can you give us an estimate of what your traveling
expense amounts to for a year?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I cannot, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Would it be as much as $10,000?
Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no.
Mr. Starnes. As much as five thousand ?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't think so ; no.
Mr. Starnes. What is the largest expense you have in your national
budget other than your salary and those of the other two officials?
Mr. Kuhn. Office expenses and general expenses, and binding, and
presentation.
Mr. Starnes. You say there is no particular significance in the
location of the bund units that I called a moment ago?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; there is not ; not for me.
Mr. Starnes. Not for you. How many camps do you have \
Mr. Kuhn. Which we own or which we have rented ?
Mr. Starnes. Both. Give us the owned camps first.
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know exactly. Altogether we have around 20.
Mr. Starnes. Tell us where they are located. Give us your best
recollection.
Mr. Kuhn. There is one in Long Island : there is one in New Jer-
sey ; there is one in Connecticut ; there is another one in the State of
New York ; there is another one in the State of New York
Mr. Starnes. How many in New York ?
Mr. Kuhn. Three. There is one in Pennsylvania, there is one in
Michigan, there is one in Ohio, there is one in Indiana ; there is one in
Wisconsin, there is one in Missouri.
Mr. Starnes. Near St. Louis ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. There is one in Los Angeles, there is one between
San Francisco and Petaluma.
Mr. Starnes. All these that you are naming now are those which
you owm ?
Mr. Kuhn. No; I did not say that. You said altogether.
Mr. Starnes. I am talking about those that the bund owns.
Mr. Kuhn. The bund don't own anything.
Mr. Starnes. What does own anything?
Mr. Kuhn. Each camp is the owner.
Mr. Starnes. Do they make any reports other than those required
by the laws of the State ?
Mr. Kuhn. They have to, because they are registered by the Secre-
tary of State.
Mr. Mason. Is there one in Illinois, outside of Chicago?
Mr. Kuhn. No; there is one close to Chicago, but it i> light over the
border line in Michigan.
The Chairman. Do you have any further questions, Mr. Whitley?
Mr. Whitley. I have a few.
Mr. Kuhn, does (he German-American Bund or the Nazi govern-
ment, or any agency of the Nazi government pay the expenses, or part
of the expenses, of members of the bund, or of the youth movement,
to Germany for the purpose of giving them instruction and training
as propagandists?
Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is a long question. Make your questions short,
and I will make mv answers short.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3885
Mr. AYihtley. All right. Has the German-American Bund ever
paid the expenses, or part of the expenses, of members to go to Ger-
many for training purposes?
Mr. Kuhn. Not for training purposes.
Mr. Whitley. What have they paid the expenses of their mem-
bers for \
Mr. Kuhn. The hiind has never paid anything except for private
individuals.
Mr. Whitley. Yon mean private members have gone over there on
visit.-, but paid their own expenses?
Mr. Kuhn. Of course.
Mr. Whitley. But the bund has never assisted any members of its
youth movement to go over to Germany for training purposes?
Mr. Kuhn. Correct .
Mr. Whitley. Has the Nazi government ever defrayed the ex-
penses of anybody to go over there for training purposes?
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir: either for training purposes or any.
Mr. Whitley. And the bund lias never defrayed the expenses of
anybody to go over there?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
'^r Mr. Whitley. You referred yesterday, Mr. Kuhn, to various in-
dividuals and organizations with which the bund has been in con-
tact, or with which it has cooperated, at least to the extent of ex-
changing speakers and exchanging literature. Has your organiza-
tion ever made any contact or association with Ukranian groups?
Mr. Kuhn. Ukranians were at one of our meetings in Chicago,
and in Xew York. Once I was in Chicago at a meeting in a park
and there were Ukranians there. I think the park belongs to
Ukranians.
Mr. Whitley. What Ukranian organization is that?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't recall the name.
Mr. Whitley. It is an organization, though?
Mr. Kuhn. It is an organization; yes.
Mr. Whitley. And your organization, or various units, have co-
operated with Ukranians in meetings or by exchanging halls, and
things of that kind I
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know about cooperation.
Mr. Whitley. It is cooperation, for instance, if you exchange halls.
Mr. Kuhn. If you call that cooperation, that has been done.
Mr. Whitley. And von have had them to your meetings in New
York ?
Mr. Kuhn. Y"es.
Mr. Whitley. Well, that is cooperation, is it not?
Mr. Kuhn. Sure.
Mr. Whitley. I mean it shows a kindly feeling, at least?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. A feeling of cooperation.
Mr. Kuhn. We have Communists in our meetings, too.
|ve,iJt»:: Mr. Whitley. You did not invite them, though?
Mr. Kuhx. No : I did not invite them.
Mr. Whitley. How about the Hungarian groups? Have you had
nsslmiHany cooperation with them?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
I
Ik'
4
3886
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. None whatever, to your knowledge ?
Mr. Kuhn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Yesterday you named various individuals who had
spoken at your meetings, or whom you had invited to speak, over
a period of time. I believe you had invited Father Coughlin to
speak before the bund ?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Where was that?
Mr. Kuhn. Madison Square Garden.
Mr. Whitley. How did vou invite him; by letter or personally?
Mr. Kuhn. By letter.
Mr. Whitley. Did he decline?
Mr. Kuhn. He answered that he can't speak.
Mr. Whitley. He answered that he could not speak?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And I believe you also said you invited Mr. Pelley
to speak at that gathering.
Mr. Kuhn. I did not say that. I said we invited him. I am not
sure whether we collectively invited him to speak, or just invited
him.
Mr. Whitley. I believe you said yesterday that you invited Mr.
Edmondson to speak.
Mr. Kuhn. To speak ? I don't know. We invited him ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Who else did you invite to speak at that meeting
besides the ones I have named?
Mr. Kuhn. General Moseley.
Mr. Whitley. Did he decline?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did he state any reason?
Mr. Kuhn. He said he could not do it at that time.
Mr. Whitley. What were Father Coughlin's reasons for declin-
ing?
Mr. Kuhn. He don't speak in public meetings.
Mr. Whitley. Was that the only occasion when you invited him
to speak at a bund meeting?
Mr. Kuhn. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. That was the only occasion when the national head-
quarters invited him to speak?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Right in that connection, did you extend any invi-
tation to the American Fascist ?
Mr. Kuhn. The American Fascist ? No.
The Chairman. I mean an organization which styles itself th
American Fascist.
Mr. Kuhn. No.
The Chairman. Do you know F. P. Castorino?
Mr. Kuhn. Castorino? I don't recall the name. It is an Italian
name. I might know him if I saw the man.
The Chairman. V. A. Petty?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't recall the name.
The Chairman. Giannotta — G-i-a-n-n-o-t-t-a?
Mr. Kuhn. Giannotta? No: I don't know the name at all.
The Chaihman. Well, vou did know Carl Poppo Nicolai, did you
not?
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UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3887
Mr. Kuiin. Oh, 37es.
The Chairman. Who was he?
Mr. Kuhn. You mean his official position in the bund?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Kuhn. He was the local unit leader of Oakland.
The Chairman. Is he with the bund now ?
Mr. Kuhn. He is with the bund now; yes.
The Chairman. He is no longer the local leader?
Mr. Kuhn. He is not local leader; no.
The Chairman. What has been your relationship with him; has it
been friendly?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I think so.
The Chairman. You are still pretty good friends?
Mr. Kuhn. Not officially, but
The Chairman. About 40 percent of your members, you said,
were people not of German extraction?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. That includes people of different extractions?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Some Irish?
Mr. Kuhn. Irish; lots of them Irish.
The Chairman. And some Italians?
Mr. Kuhn. Very few.
The Chairman. Some Ukrainians?
Mr. Kuhn. Very few.
The Chairman! And some Hungarians. What is the greatest
percentage?
Mr. Kuhn. Irish.
The Chairman. Of the 40 percent, then, you would say that 90 per-
cent are Irish?
Mr. Kuhn. Out of this 40 percent, about 90 percent.
The Chairman. Where are thev located mostly : around New York
Citv?
Mr. Kuhn. Everywhere.
The Chairman. On July 12, 1938. at a meeting in — or let me ask
you this question : Was a power of attorney ever given and turned
over to you to take over the German- American Bund ? Did you ever
get a power of attorney?
Mr. Kuhn. At the national convention; yes.
The Chairman. The national convention gave you a power of
attorney. Did you ever get a power of attorney turning over Camp
Sip<rfried to you?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes: I got a power of attorney from the Settlement
League: not from the bund, because it belongs to the Settlement
League.
The Chairman. What was the purpose in giving you the power of
attorney?
Mr. Kuhn. As a director: because the members saw fit.
The Chairman. Thev iust saw fit to give you a power of attorney
to handle the whole affair.
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman: Was Nicholai made secretary at that time?
Mr. Kuhn. No ; hp was secretary up to that time.
The Chairman. Was he in charge of the women's auxiliary?
J
3888 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kuhn. Eight.
The Chairman. Was he also director of the national speakers?
bureau of the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Where is Carl Nicholai now?
Mr. Kuhn. He is in Germany now.
The Chairman. How long has he been in Germany ?
Mr. Kuhn. About 5 or 6 weeks or 2 months; I don't know exactly!
The Chairman. Do you know why he went to Germany \
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
The Chairman. Why?
Mr. Kuhn. Just what he told me. He has still some property
there which he has to take care of.
The Chairman. How many members of your bund that you know
of are in Germany at the present time ?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. You mean as visitors?
The Chairman. As visitors; yes.
Mr. Kuhn. Or with estates there?
The Chairman. As visitors.
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know how many more ; very few.
The Chairman. Do you know Edwin Westphale, one of the bund
speakers ?
Mr. Kuhn. Westphale? Westphal : yes. Do you mean Westphal?
The Chairman. Westphal; yes. Where does he live?
Mr. Kuhn. I don't know where lie lives.
The Chairman. Is he one of the speakers for the bund?
Mr. Kuhn. He spoke a few times. I think lie speaks for some
organization, too.
Mr. Whitley. Did you have a meeting with Mr. Westphal a few
weeks ago, on a Saturday night '.
Mr. Kuhn. A meeting?
Mr. Whitley. Did you meet him at the Appling Casino in New
York?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; there was a meeting at Appling Casino, but 1
do not think he was there.
Mr. Whitley. Who else was there?
Mr. Kuhn. I was the main speaker, and Mr. Kunze was a speaker,
and then came Mr. Williams, from the Mobilizer.
Mr. Whitley. That was a meeting of the Christian Mobilizers?
Mr. Kuhn. No: that was a meeting of the bund.
Mr. Whitley. Were the Christian Mobilizers there?
Mr. Kuhn. Some of them were there, I suppose. T hope all of
them were there. Mr. Williams spoke there.
Mr. Whitley. Did you speak?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, I spoke too.
Mr. Whitley. That was just another one of those meetings when
there were various representatives of organizations present?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; it was just one of those meetings.
Mr. Whitley. And you referred to a number of others in yoi
previous testimony.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions, gentlemen?
(There were no questions.)
Ill faff
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3889
The Chairman. The committee will stand adjourned until tomor-
row morning at 10 o'clock, at which time another witness will be
heard.
Mr. Kuhn. Am I released?
The Chairman. You are released; yes.
Mx. Kuhn. Then 1 don't have to come any more?
The Chairman. No.
Mr. Kuhn. It is a pleasure, gentlemen.
The Chairman. I might say that it will be the policy of the
committee not to release the name of any witness until he appears
on the stand.
(Thereupon the committee adjourned until tomorrow, Friday, Au-
gust 18, 1939, at 10 a. m.)
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INVESTIGATION CF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
FRIDAY, AUGUST 18, 1939
House of Representatives,
Special Committee to Investigate
Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C.
The committee met at 10 a. m., in the caucus room, House Office
Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding.
Present : Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee.
The Chairman. Will the committee come to order? The Chair
has a suggestion to offer. The Chair suggests — and I think this is
the sense of the committee — that in the conduct of the investiga-
tion we undertake to confine ourselves to material matters and avoid
; any immaterial or inconsequential matter that has no particular rele-
vancy or, even if it has, does not add any light to the investigation.
And, if we can, when a member has a question to address to a wit-
ness, let the Chair suggest that the member first address himself to
the Chair and make known the fact he wants to ask a question, so
that we can proceed as orderly as possible.
Again, the Chair wants to caution against these voluntary state-
ments. It is a difficult matter to handle; but, at the same time, no
witness will be permitted to make a voluntary statement and, where
it is discovered, from now on it will be stricken from the record.
Does the committee approve of that procedure?
Mr. Mason. Absolutely.
TESTIMONY OF MISS HELEN VOOROS, BROOKLYN, N. Y.
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
The Chairman. Now, Miss Vooros, will you make your answers
responsive to the questions asked by counsel, listening to the question,
\ and then answer the particular question he asks, and speak as loudly
I and distinctly as you can, because it is rather difficult to hear in this
(room; the acoustics are not very good, and we would like to hear
your testimony.
And may I ask the audience to observe absolute quiet, please, and
no whispering or conversation to go on while the hearing is in
. progress, because sometimes we cannot hear what the witness says,
' and some remark escapes our attention that we want to hear.
All right, Mr. Whitley.
Mr. Whitley. What is your full name?
Miss Vooros. Helen Vooros.
Mr. Whitley. What is your present address, Miss Vooros?
3891
3892 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss Vooros. 390 Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn, N. Y.
Mr. Whitley. Where were you born?
Miss Vooros. Gorlitz, Germany.
Mr. Whitley. When were you born, Miss Vooros?
Miss Vooros. 1920; May 11.
Mr. Whitley. That means you are 19 years old?
Miss Vooros. Nineteen.
Mr. Whitley. Where were you educated?
Miss Vooros. New York.
Mr. Whitley. Are you married or single?
Miss Vooros. Single.
Mr. Whitley. When did you come to the United States?
Miss Vooros. I came to the- United States in 1926.
Mr. Whitley. Where did you enter the United States?
Miss Vooros. New York.
Mr. Whitley. Are you a citizen of the United States?
Miss Vooros. I am.
Mr. Whitley. Miss Vooros, have you ever been a member of the
German-American Bund or any of its allied organizations?
Miss Vooros. I became a member of the bund in May 1937.
Mr. Whitley. May 1937?
Miss Vooros. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. And where did you join?
Miss Vooros. I joined the South Brooklyn division.
Mr. Whitley. South Brooklyn?
Miss Vooros. Division.
Mr. Whitley. And what branch or group of the bund did you
join ?
Miss Vooros. The Youth Movement.
Mr. Whitley. You joined the Youth Movement?
Miss Vooros. I did.
Mr. Whitley. Had you been interested in the bund or, prior to
your joining, had anyone particularly tried to persuade you, or to
interest you, in joining?
Miss Vooros. A friend of mine recommended it to me because of
the social activities that were going on, but they did not tell me
it was an arm of the Nazi organization. I found that out later.
Mr. Whitley. They merely presented it as an American group?
Miss Vooros. A group of girls; they did not specify what it was.
Mr. Whitley. And after joining the organization in May 1937,
did you Toecome active in its activities?
Miss Vooros. No; not immediately. I joined in May and, in
August, the leader of that South Brooklyn division died and I was
the next one up for leadership and they recommended me.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Do you have your membership book?
Miss Vooros. I have. My counsel has it.
Mr. Whitley. Can we 'get that book, Miss Vooros? [After a
pause:! We will have the book in just a moment, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Wait and get the book before you proceed, so that
we can introduce it.
Miss Vooros. You want the book?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Miss Vooros. This is it [passing to Mr. Whitley].
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3893
Mr. "Whitley. This is your membership book in the Youth Move-
ment of the German-American Bund?
Miss Vooros. It is.
Mr. Whitley. It is book No. 412?
Miss Vooros. Yes; that is right.
Mr. Whitley. In the name of Helen Vooros?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. I would like to introduce that in the record, Mr.
Chairman.
(The paper referred to was filed with the committee.)
Mr. Whitley. Who is that book signed by, Miss Vooros?
Miss Vooros. By the youth leader, at that time Theodore Dinke-
1 acker.
Mr. Whitley. At that time he was national youth leader of the
•German-American Bund ?
Miss Vooros. He was.
Mr. Whitley. After you became active in the affairs of the Youth
Movement in south Brooklyn, will you describe for the committee,
Miss Vooros, the procedure that was followed as to meetings and
instructions, and so forth?
Miss Vooros. Well, I came there once or twice and they did not say
much and they made a very good impression on me, and the third
time I came there they said I needed a uniform, and that consisted of
a blue skirt, white blouse, brown tie, victory sign — the iron victory
sign — and the number 12 on the uniform. That cost me $11.
The Chairman. Where did you buy it ? Will you tell us where you
got it — who recommended it?
Miss Vooros. Well, the leader of the group, Tillie Koch, supplied
each girl with the uniform.
The Chairman. You paid the money to her?
Miss Vooros. I paid the money to her.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Miss Vooros. Another thing, we were made aware of the fact we
were only to speak German in the group and, if a girl was found
speaking English, she was fined 1 or 2 cents. That was a strict order.
Well, the procedure of the meetings was when we came in we sang
the German song Forward; Forward.
The Chairman. When you came in the meeting, you sang the
German song Forward; Forward?
Miss Vooros. That is right. And we gave the Nazi salute.
The Chairman. What was the Nazi salute that you gave; will you
show the committee ?
Miss Vooros. (Raises and extends right arm.) And we sat down;
some of the girls had some embroidery work, and we did that for
half an hour, and then sang songs, German songs, for about three-
quarters of an hour. Then we had our discussions, political .discus-
sions ; we had to know the life of Adolf Hitler ; that was one thing
we were compelled to know.
The Chairman. How were you to learn the life of Adolf Hitler?
Miss Vooros. We were given pamphlets.
The Chairman. Where were the pamphlets printed?
Miss Vooros. At that time I didn't know where they were printed,
but they came from Germany.
94931—39 — vol. 6 13
3894 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. The pamphlets came from Germany?
M'ss Vooros. They did.
The Chairman. And they told the life of Adolf Hitler?
Miss Vooros. Of Adolf Hitler.
The Chairman. And it was necessary for you to learn the con-
tents of those pamphlets?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. Were you questioned later about it?
Miss Vooros. We were given examinations on it.
The Chairman. All right; proceed.
Mr. Whitley. How often did you have those meetings, Miss
Vooros ?
Miss Vooros. We had them once every Saturday.
Mr. Wh.tlet. Every Saturday?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And how many girls were there in your particular
group ?
Miss Vooros. When I was there, there were 17.
Mr. Whitley. Seventeen girls?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And that was the south Brooklyn group?
Miss Vooros. Yes; that was.
Mr. Whitley. Now will you continue with your description of
the various procedures followed at meetings?
Miss Vooros. I will. And then we had to know the life of Horst
Wessel.
The Chairman. You had to know the life of whom ?
Miss Vooros. Horst Wessel, a prominent leader in the Nazi Party;:
then Herbert Norkus.
The Chairman. How did you get his life; did you get pamphlets?
Miss Vooros. We got pamphlets.
The Chairman. From Germany?
Miss Vooros. From Germany; yes.
The Chairman. That told his life ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. You had to learn his life, too?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. Who were the others?
Miss Vooros. The most important was the life of Herbert Norkus.
The Chairman. Who was he?
Miss Vooros. He was one of the boys that was very active in the
Youth Movement in Germany and was shot by Communists, and
the other boy was a Hitler youth, Quex. Well, his story is the same
as the other one, but it was important that we know them.
Mr. Whitley. It was a kind of party order?
Miss Vooros. Yes; that is it.
Mr. Whitley. He was a hero?
Miss Vocros. Yes; a hero.
Mr. Whitley. And you had to study the lives of all those that
are prominent officials or heroes in the Nazi movement?
Miss Vooros. Yes; we did.
Mr. Whitley. And you got it from the pamphlets, which you
later learned
Miss Vooros. Came from Germany.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3895
Mr. AVhitley. Came from Germany?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. At that time, you did not know that?
Miss Vooros. I didn't know that.
Mr. Whitley. Did you follow any other procedure at those weekly
meetings ?
Miss Vooros. Well, we had these hikes.
The Chairman. You had what?
Miss Vooros. Hikes, and once a month Mr. Dinkelaeker would
take us on night marches. I never went with him. They would
either take place on Staten Island, or New Jersey, and then they
would build a big fire. It is strictly according to German tradition,
once a month, that they build a big fire on a mountain, or what looks
like a mountain, and then sing German songs around the fire.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, before the witness gets into the night
marches, I would like to ask a question following up another point.
The Chairman. All right ; but let us stick as closely as we can to
what has already been testified.
Mr. Thomas. I want to ask you a question in regard to lessons.
Were you taught anything relative to American history?
Miss Vooros. Nothing of that.
Mr. Thomas. Everything you were taught in those classes had to
do with German characters; is that right?
Miss Vooros. Yes; that is correct.
The Chairman. Now, before we get to the night marches, develop
exactly what was studied so that wTe can stay on one thing and de-
velop it before we go to another. Now let us develop exactly what
was taught in camp.
Mr. Whitley. Were there any other subjects that were taught dur-
ing those weekly meetings, Miss Vooros ?
Miss Vooros. Well, we all sang ; we had to know German songs.
Mr. Whitley. What were some of those songs?
Miss Vooros. Well, we had to know the German song, the national
anthem, and the song that comes after that of Horst Wessel.
Mr. Whitley. The Horst Wessel song?
Miss Vooros. The Horst Wessel song; yes; that is one thing we
had to know; and two or three times a month we would be given
a piece of paper and had to write the song down; and according to
that, we would be marked.
Mr. Whitney. Did they teach you any American song?
Miss Vooros. None.
Mr. Whitley. None at all?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. Was there any other instruction of any kind that
you received at the Youth Movement?
Miss Vooros. No; but we were given a list of addresses; and in
our spare time, we had to go and visit people and see if we could
obtain more members for the organization.
Mr. Whitley. Were those people living in the vicinity with Ger-
man antecedents, which were members of the German race?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, that was just by way of missionary
work in trying to recruit more members?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
3896 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. At the meetings, in your instruction on German
heroes and current leaders, were you taught German history, or the
history of the National Socialist Party?
Miss Vooros. The leader was only taught that. The leader would,
once a week, each Wednesday, go to the bund's home there, in Ridge-
wood, on Grave Street, and the leaders would go there, and they
would be taught by Mr. Dinkelacker, German history; then they
were to teach that to us.
Mr. Whitley. Teach their group?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. How often would they have those leaders' meet-
ings ?
Miss Vooros. Once a week, every Wednesday.
Mr. Whitley. Then they had the group meeting every Saturday?
Miss Vooros. Every Saturday.
Mr. Whitley. Was there any other type of instruction received —
that is, of a general nature — at those meetings?
Miss Vooros. That was all while I was a member there.
Mr. Whitley. That was all while you were a member?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Now you mentioned a moment ago the hikes
The Chairman. Before you get to that, let us finish up on this.
Now were you taught — were those pamphlets written in German?
Miss Vooros. They were.
The Chairman. Was your instruction given in the German lan-
guage?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. The whole thing occurred in the German lan-
guage ?
Miss Vooros. Everything in German.
The Chairman. Now, in the instruction you received with refer-
ence to German history, did it deal largely with Hitler and his rise
to power and what the Nazi movement stood for ?
Miss Vooros. It consisted only of that.
The Chairman. Was there anything in there that criticized the
Nazi movement, or acknowledged any mistakes that had been made?
Miss Vooros. No, sir; it praised it.
The Chairman. Were all of the pamphlets and all of the instruc-
tions praising the Hitler movement in Germany and the Nazi Party?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. Did they tell you how the Nazi Party was first
formed ?
Miss Vooros. It did.
The Chairman. And the manner in which they succeeded ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. What did they tell you as to the best vehicle that
they used to gain power in Germany?
Miss Vooros. Propaganda.
The Chairman. Propaganda based on what? What appeals did
they say they made — the most effective appeals?
Miss Vooros. Well, going to the people and telling them what the
Nazi government would offer them, and the advantages it had for
them.
The Chairman. Well, did that include appeals to the unemployed?
UN-AMERIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3897
Miss Vooros. Yes; saying they would get positions.
The Chairman. That they would get positions when the Nazi
movement went to power?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; that no one would be unemployed.
The Chairman. No one would be unemployed?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. Did they say anything about economic security?
Miss Vooros. Yes; they did.
The Chairman. They said the Nazi government would promote
economic security ?
Miss Vooros. That is right.
The Chairman. Did they say it would bring social justice to the
people of the country?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. So that it was largely an appeal to those who were
in distress?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. What about the question of racial prejudice; did
they deal with that in any respect?
IVliss Vooros. Quite a bit of it.
The Chairman. In that connection, tell us what they taught you ;
tell us exactly what that phase of your instruction was.
Miss Vooros. Well, that we, the Germans, were Aryans; the Ger-
mans were the people who were — they were the ones that originated
culture in this world, and we were the only ones that were apt to
succeed in this world, and we were to work together.
The Chairman. Did they exclude from that any other races be-
sides the Aryan races?
Miss Vooros. No ; it was just the Aryan race.
The Chairman. For the sake of the record, so that we will know
about it, what is your extraction; are you German?
Miss Vooros. No.
The Chairman. What are you ?
Miss Vooros. My father is Greek.
The Chairman. Your father was Greek?
Miss Vooros. Yes. There was doubt about that, whether they
could admit me to the organization; that because of this I was not
really an Aryan, because my father was Greek, and they had quite —
they called an extra meeting about it, and that said I had such strong
feelings for the German people at that time
ifirst The Chairman. You do not have any Jewish blood, do you?
Miss Vooros. No. They said I had such strong feelings that they
could make an exception, but I would have to be very careful.
Mr. Thomas. I would like to ask a question?
The Chairman. In that connection?
Mr. Thomas. Yes. Where was your father born ?
Miss Vooros. Syra.
Mr. Whitley. In Syra?
Miss Vooros. Off the coast of Greece, a small island.
Mr. Whitley. And where was your mother born?
Miss Vooros. In Germany.
Mr. Whitley. She was born in Germany?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What part of Germany?
3898 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss Vooros. The southern part, near the Czechoslovakia border.
Mr. Whitley. Your mother is German, then?
Miss Vooros. My mother is German; but, don't you see, they
told me that had no affect on my mother; it was me. My mother
was German, but it was me that came in question.
Mr. Whitley. Is there any Jewish blood in your mother?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. That is all.
The Chairman. Before we leave this phase, which I think is very
important : You Ray they taught you the lives of the German heroes?
Miss Vooros. They did.
The Chairman. And the leaders of the Nazi movement and the
philosophy of the Nazi movement?
Miss Vooros. They did.
The Chairman. They told you what were the most effective ap-
peals that were made in Germany to gain adherents?
Miss Vooros. They did.
The Chairman. Did they tell you among what class they made
tthe greatest progress in Germany?
Miss Vooros. I don't get the question.
The Chairman. What class — the workers, the middle class?
Miss Vooros. The workers.
The Chairman. It was the workers in Germany they made the
greatest progress among?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. Because the workers were unemployed?
Miss Vooros. Thev were in need.
The Chairman. They were in need, and the Nazi Party promised
economic security, social justice, and other bonanzas they were sup-
posed to receive?
Miss Vooros. That is right.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Whitley. Miss Vooros, in the teachings you received during
the time you were in the bund, you say that they did not teach you
American history or American ideals. Were they critical of Ameri-
can history and American institutions — openly critical?
Miss Vooros. They were.
Mr. Whitley. Were they very positively critical?
Miss Vooros. Yes; very.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, the procedure at those youth-group
meetings was to praise everything German and to criticize every-
thing American?
Miss Vooros. Yes; that is right.
Mr. Whitley. Are you aware, or do you know, that the bund
The Chairman. Are you going to develop that criticism phase?
Mr. Whitley. Yes. The bund professes to be an American group,
just another American group primarily interested in American in-
stitutions and the welfare of this Government. From your
knowledge of their activities, as a member, as an active member of
the bund, would you say that such a profession is correct?
Miss Vooros. No; it isn't.
Mr. Whitley. It is not correct?
Miss Vooros. It is not.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3899
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, Mr. Kulm, the leader of the
bund, in the last 2 days has testified and stated repeatedly that the
bund was an American group primarily interested in the welfare of
this country. What would you say of "that statement; is it correct?
Miss Vooros. False.
Mr. Whitley. It is false?
Miss Vooros. It is.
The Chairman. Before we get away from this other, before we
leave this
Mr. Whitley. Criticism?
The Chairman. Yes; criticism. Let us develop that.
Mr. Whitley. What is the nature of the criticism which was di-
rected by the leaders of the bund and the Youth Movement at Ameri-
can institutions?
Miss Vooros. Well, they always found fault with this Government
here. They said it was being led by one minority, and they were
only looking out for their own good; they were not taking any
interest in the other people, the other races.
Mr. Whitley. I see. And what was that minority that they
criticized particularly?
Miss Vooros. The Jews.
Mr. Whitley. And was there any other particular type of criti-
cism they directed at the Government?
Miss Vooros. Well, they did not like this form of government.
Mr. Whitley. They did not like the democratic form of govern-
ment ?
Miss Vooros. No; they didn't.
The Chairman. In that connection, did they hold up the superior
advantages of the Nazi Government to the American Government?
Miss Vooros. They said national socialism was the only thing that
could save us. I do not know from what we were supposed to be
saved.
The Chairman. In the philosophy they taught you, did they
teach you the duty of the Government to take care of the people, to
see that they had jobs and to give them economic security?
Miss Vooros. Not the American Government.
The Chairman. When they described the Nazi government, did
they say that was the purpose of the Nazi government?
Miss Vooros. That was the purpose, and it was apt to spread.
The Chairman. It was apt to spread?
Miss Vooros. It was.
Mr. Thomas. But they did say the national socialistic form of
government was the only form of government that could save us?
Miss Vcoros. That is right.
Mr. Thomas. Did they say what it could save us from?
Miss Vooros. No; but they, said we Germans were not getting any
consideration in this country, and it was about time we should
speak up.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Wrhitley, you will proceed. Are
you through with the Youth Movement phase of it? Have we cov-
ered that thoroughly ?
Mr. Whitley. Coming back for a few minutes to the Youth
Movement, Miss Vooros, you mentioned a moment ago something of
^AM
3900 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
the different lectures and studies which were followed, and, in addi-
tion, you mentioned hikes which they were taking.
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; when we went on hikes, we went in march-
ing formation.
Mr. Whitley. Did you wear uniforms?
Miss Vcoros. Yes, sir; we wore uniforms.
Mr. Whitley. Did you use your same uniform that you used as
a member of the Youth Movement?
Miss Vooros. At that time it was not the same.
Mr. Whitley. But you did have one at that time ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. But that is not the uniform they used ?
Miss Vooros. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You say you went in marching formation?
Miss Vooros. "When we went on hikes, we went in uniform, and
marching formation. We carried a flag, blue and white, with a
white swastika, which is called the victory sign.
Mr. Whitiey. Is that the svmbol of the German Nazi Youth
Movement throughout the world?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, that symbol was not originated
in the United States?
Miss Vooros. No, sir; it is a German symbol.
Mr. Whitley. So you wore a uniform, and went in marching
formation, carrying the Youth Movement symbol?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. What did you do?
Miss Vooros. On our hikes, we went in marching formation, and
we built our own small fires and sang German songs. Mr. Dinkel-
acker was the leader, and we would have night marches. On these
marches, you are supposed to walk in the dark, and not see where
you are going, and keep in line formation. Then, when we reached
the place we wanted, we would build a big fire and sing German
songs. We would give the salute three times. We would give the
heil three times with the salute, and each time it is given to Balden
von Schirach. The marches were to build up resistance.
Mr. Whitley. You have gone into this marching in formation on
hikes nnd buildimr fires at the camps and singing songs
The Chairman (interposing). I understood her to say that she did
not go on these hikes.
Miss Vooros. I had reports once a week, every Wednesday. Every
Wednesday there would be a report of what took place.
The Chairman. You are not testifying from first hand knowledge
of what took place, but you are testifying from reports that were
made?
Miss Vooros. That is what I did in Germany, and they do the same
things here.
Mr. Whitley. You became the leader of the South Brooklyn Youth
Movement, and, as leader, attended the leaders' meetings once a
week. You saw the reports that were submitted, and the official
reports to the bund covering all these activities?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; and it is generally planned out what they
shall do.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3901
Mr. Wiiitlky. I think, in view of the fact, that she saw the official
reports submitted as to these night hikes, as submitted to the bund,
she could describe, at least, what the reports were.
The Chairman. These reports undertake to describe what took
place \
Mi-s Vooros. Yes, sir; they would call in German on Balden von
Schirach. They must go through that, build the fires, and they
worship this man.
Mr. Whitley. You did personally, later on, in Germany actually
participate in the same type of activities?
Miss Vooros. Y^es. sir.
The Chairman. When you speak of these meetings at night, look
at this picture, and see if that is what you have in mind.
Miss Vooros. Y"es sir, that is correct.
The Chairman. In Germany, you have been in similar meetings?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. They hold these camps there?
Miss Vooros. Y^es, sir; and they carry it out here the same way.
Mr. Whitley. Yrou mentioned the fact that the purpose of the
night marching was to build up resistance?
Miss Vooros. Yres, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Do they try to make it as hard on the leaders and
the members as possible?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; if we are on a march, the more scratches we
have, the better it is. It is better to have them, because we show
that we can take it.
Mi-. Whitley. It shows that they can go through underbrush in
the dark, and still move in formation, letting nothing interfere.
Physical pain does not amount to anything?
Miss Vooros. No. sir; it is not supposed to mean anything. You
are supposed to be without feeling about it. You are supposed to
be without feeling or pity. You are not supposed to show any
Sympathy.
Mr. Whitley. Not supposed to show any sympathy at all for physi-
cal suffering?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir ; that is it.
Mr. Whitley. That is a part of the regular routine of teaching?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Continuing with the routine followed on the march-
ing, and which you as leader of the American Youth Movement are
familiar with, will you describe that in some detail?
Miss Vooros. Well, we had those night marches.
Mr. Whitley. Y^ou were coming to the point where they built fires ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; they built fires and sang songs. They would
tell stories about this man I mentioned, Balden von Schirach. They
would tell something about him, and give the Nazi salute which would
be given three times, with the heil.
Mr. Whitley. They give the Nazi salute, with the heil, every three
times to the leader. That is what you were describing.
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; then they sing the German national anthem,
the Horst Wessel. They sing those songs and give the salute of the
German-American Bund.
Mr. Whitley. Did they ever salute any American leaders or insti-
tutions?
3902 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss Vooros. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. The whole attitude with reference to America was
constantly critical ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. In addition to these hikes which the Youth Move-
ment took, and at these meetings they held, did they have any drills?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; we had drills, marching youth drills, and
the boys used the goose step in drills at meetings.
Mr. Whitley. They marched in formation, and had the goose step?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. By the girls, also ?
Miss Vooros. No, sir; the}^ had to march in formation.
Mr. Whitley. At practically every meeting on Saturdays, they had
these youths to drill ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; the time was fixed, a half hour for this and
a half hour for that. There was a time for the marching and drills.
Mr. Whitley. Was the discipline very rigid ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. Whitley. At these weekly meetings, and these marches, it was
all done in uniform?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. They marched in uniform ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did anyone in the camp speak English?
Miss Vooros. No, sir ; they spoke German.
Mr. Whitley. If anyone spoke English, there was trouble?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; if they did not know any better, or did not
speak German, they were forbidden to wear the uniform for 2 weeks,
or 2 Saturdays. That was about the worst punishment they could
have.
Mr. Whitley. Were there any other activities, or general routine
activities, in this movement, that you think might be of interest to
the committee?
Miss Vooros. That occurred while I was a member?
Mr. Whitley. Yes; when did you become leader of the South
Brooklyn Youth Movement?
Miss Vocros. When Miss Koch died.
Mr. Whitley. You succeeded her as leader?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; she had left for the camp. She was the
leader, and was at Camp Siegfried. I was out there. I went out
to visit her. She told be about it. She had become quite a bit
troubled because the boys' camp and girls' camp were so close to-
gether. She had to stand guard there, and while there she con-
tracted pneumonia and died.
Mr. Whitley. Prior to the time she died, and you became the
leader, had you been to Camp Siegfried ?
Miss Vooros. Once before.
Mr. Whitley. Had you been to Camp Nordland ?
Miss VooR' s. That came after Camp Siegfried.
Mr. Whitley. Will you describe your experiences at Camp Sieg-
fried? What was the camp routine there, insofar as the girls' part
of the Youth Movement was concerned?
Miss Vooros. The routine at the camp?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3903
Miss Vooros. Well, it was a German camp. They had to do what-
ever was told them. They were told that they would be punished
for disorderly conduct. They arose in the morning, swam, and had
exercises. They would come to breakfast, and then clean up. After
that, they would gather together and sing songs. This I also know
from a booklet I received. They swam, and exercised, and would
have something to do every half hour. In the afternoon, from 1 to
2 o'clock, they would have to study German culture. They had to
study German literature, and take high-school studies in German
culture.
Mr. Whitley. It is confined to instruction about German institu-
tions ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; there was a girls' tent there near the boys'
tent, 10 or 20 feet away. That gave quite a bit of trouble, and the
parents complained about it, or about the boys' camps and the girls'
camps being too close together. They saw the boys and girls there
together, doing things that they should not be doing. That was
brought up with the youth leader at that time, Mr. Vandenberg, and
there was a'discussion about what should be done about it. Later he
called a meeting, and said that the boys and girls should go some-
where where people did not see them, and should hide it better.
Mr. Whitley. He did not condemn the practice of immorality?
Miss Vooros. Well, that they should follow their instincts.
Mr. Thomas. He asked about immorality? What did you say
about following instincts?
Miss Vooros. That their instincts ought not to be curbed.
Mr. Whitley. That is a part of their teaching?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. The leader did not object to immoralitj' so long
as there was no complaint?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That is the principle?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In Mein Kampf and other German literature one
of the main arguments of the Nazis is that it inspires purity, stamp-
ing out immorality, and forcing men and women to be clean. Your
statement does not check with that.
Miss Vooros. It does. That is what I was taught in Germany.
That is what they call purity. That if two people go together, they
should not curb their natural instincts. That is what they call pure.
Thev do not consider that anything immoral.
The Chairman. Did you enter this movement for the purpose of
becoming an informer?
Miss Vooros. No. sir.
The Chairman. Were you genuine and sincere about it when you
went in ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You did not go in with the idea of giving informa-
tion ab^'u: them later?
I Miss Vooros. No. sir.
The Chairman Why did you quit the movement?
Miss Vooros. Because the leaders would not let me alone. They
made several attempts to attack me. It was the immorality in the
movement.
3904 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. The immorality of the movement appalled you to
such an extent that you left it ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir ; it disgusted me.
Mr. Starnes. And you left the movement?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. What do you mean by culture, or instruction in
German culture by the German Bund? What does it consist of?
Exp'ain what you mean by German culture.
Miss Vooros. They tell us that we are pure Aryans, and that we
are not to mingle with any other races, because they say that that
would be the most disgusting thing that could happen. They say
that it would ruin our race. They say that our race would be ruined.
Small children, from 8 to 12 years old, are given books published by
Julius Streicher. They are the kind of books that children would get
in kindergarten. They would have pictures of Jews with blood-
dripping fingers, and under the picture there would be rhymes. They
are given to children from 8 to 12 years old. We were told that later
we would have children, and that our children were to be in favor of
this same government, because it was the only way to get along.
Mr. Whitley. When you said the German Government, you meant,
also, German culture?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; German culture.
Mr. Starnes. The people are given instruction in the German Nazi
theory of government?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Do they give any instruction on the theory of Amer-
ican Government ?
Miss Vooros. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Will you describe for the record just how the youth
movement is divided up in groups, by ages, girls and boys, and so
forth?
Miss Vooros. For the girls and boys, the ages are from 8 to 12,
from 12 to 14, and from 14 to 18. Also, there is a special group from
18 to 21. There is that special group.
For that special group, the boys and girls have books that would
be used by high-school and college students. They watch them in
that group, because they want the ones who are most likely to be
able to spread propaganda.
Mr. Whitley. You were in the group from 14 to 18 years of age?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Those groups were handled separately, so far as
the meetings were concerned.
Miss Vooros. They had separate rooms.
Mr. Whitley. Going back to Camp Siegfried, you have described
in more or less detail the daily routine, with the teaching, and so
forth. That is continuing at the camps.
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Have you been at Camp Siegfried since? This was
in the summer of 1937, I believe.
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Do they have the same sort of a routine at Camp
Nordland, at Andover, N. J.?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You say the routine at Camp Nordland is the same?
.ram,
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3905
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; it is exactly the same.
Mr. Whitley. That was prior to the time that you were made
leader of the Brooklyn group, or South Brooklyn group \
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. The younger boys and girls, the group
from 8 to 12, would be mostly at Camp Siegfried. The girls a little
older would go to Camp Nordland, because they have a training there
that is a little more strenuous than at Camp Siegfried. That is espe-
cially true when they are marching. They do not carry that quite
to the extent that they do at Camp Nordland. They leave Camp
Nordland at 1 o'clock in the morning, and the more scratches they
have when they get back, the better fitted they are counted. You
are supposed to have resistance. When I was there, they said no
one was to show sorrow or pity. They told me that a National
Socialist should show no sympathy. They said, "You are supposed
to take it,"
Mr. Whitley. Following your stay at Camp Siegfried and Camp
Nordland, at what time were you made the leader of the South
Brooklyn group?
Mr. Thomas. First, state how many boys and girls you had in the
youth movement at Camp Nordland.
Miss Vooros. I would say about 40 or 50 girls.
Mr. Thomas. About that average all the time?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. When were you at Camp Nordland?
Miss Vooros. At the end of August 1937.
Mr. Thomas. How long did you stay at Camp Nordland?
Miss Vooros. Three days altogether.
Mr. Thomas. While there, did you see many books and pamphlets,
similar to the ones you have described ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. It was the same literature for the older
boys and girls. There was Hitler's Mein Kampf, and some of Pel-
ley's literature. Liberation. I noticed that because of the red head-
lines.
The Chairman. What else was there ?
Miss Vooros. There were Julius Streicher's books.
Mr. Thomas. Where was the literature kept at Camp Nordland?
Miss Vooros. It was kept in a separate tent.
_ The Chairman. Was there any other literature, or any American
literature?.
Miss Vooros. There was a copy of Social Justice, by Father
Coughlin.
The Chairman. What else was there ?
Miss Vooros. There were books written by Julius Streicher.
The Chairman. Were there any other books that you can think of ?
Miss Vooros. No, sir ; nothing that I can think of.
Mr. Thomas. Where were the books kept ?
Miss Vooros. They were kept in a separate tent. They had a sep-
arate tent for them.
Mr. Thomas. Was there a large supply of them ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. How many copies would they have of the different
books ?
Miss Vooros. Four or five copies. They had the Deutscher Weck-
ruf Beobachter publications.
3906 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Do they sell the literature or give it away?
Miss Vooros. No, sir ; not given away. When we were studying it,
we had it a few hours.
Mr. Whitley. You had it for study purposes?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. When did Miss Koch, the South Brooklyn leader,
die?
Miss Vooros. About the middle of August.
Mr. Whitley. When were you made the leader of that group?
Miss Vooros. After that. Ernst Weider was the leader.
The Chairman. Can you give the names of some of the people
in the camps who can be questioned with reference to these matters ?
Will you supply for the committee the names of some of the other
leaders or members of this Youth Movement, with their addresses,
so the committee can get in contact with them, and find out what
they have to say about it ?
Miss Vooros. You have the names of our leaders.
The Chairman. Suppose you give us the names of some there who
were not leaders.
Mr. Whitley. Miss Vooros has furnished a list of the boys and
girls who accompanied her on the trip to Germany. They are scat-
tered all over the country. There were 15 boys and 15 girls.
The Chairman. This witness has testified to a most astounding
state of affairs, and I think it would be well to question some others
in the same group.
Mr. Whitley. That has not been done previously, because it is
obvious that some of these other witnesses may be hostile, and if
the information came from Miss Vooros, since, at least, indirectly,
there have been threats made, I do not think it would be a good idea.
The Chairman. That is the reason you did not call on the others?
Mr. Whitley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Your appearance here is from a purely patriotic
impulse, you are not on anybody's pay roll ?
Miss Vooros. No, sir. They have done so many things against
this Government, that I feel that I may have been doing wrong.
The Chairman. After taking a part in this movement, you felt
that it was your duty to tell about it, and to give the statements
you have?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The only thing this committee wants is the bald
truth with respect to all these matters, and that is what you are
giving ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir ; I am telling the truth.
Mr. Thomas. While at Camp Nordland, did you have any oppor-
tunity to meet any people at the camp who resided in Sussex
County?
Miss Vooros. No, sir; at Camp Nordland, at least while I was
there, no one was allowed to come in. I stayed there 3 days, and
could not hold out any longer, because, first, of the immorality I
saw going on there. I saw what they did, and, besides, it was not
at all a convenient place. I telephoned my mother. No one was
permitted to come in unless they had the permission of the leader.
Mr. Thomas. Did you have any opportunity to meet people other
than those in the camp ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3907
Miss Vooros. No, sir.
Mr. Thomas. What was the name of the leader?
Miss Vooros. Ereka Hagebusch.
Mr. Whitley. Was she the only leader of the girls at that time?
Miss Vooros. No, sir; not at that time.
The Chairman. Were you cautioned not to divulge anything that
went on in the camp?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. About 2 days later, one man came to me,
Mr. Weida
The Chairman (interposing). He told you what?
Miss Vooros. He told me that I should not talk about anything
I saw in the camp, because he said that I took everything the wrong
way. I did not go around very much. He said what I saw there
was nothing compared to what it might look like.
The Chairman. Why did he say that? Had you been talking
about it? Why did he come to you unless you had been talking?
Miss Vooros. Before I went to Camp Nordland, one of the South
Brooklyn leaders made advances to me. I went to Mr. Dinkelacker
and told him about it. I said I did not like the way Mr. Vanden-
berg acted. He said, what was the matter, and couldn't I take it.
I did not know what he meant by it. He said it was proper to go
with him and ride on the bus. When I was made to go to Camp
Siegfriend, I had no other alternative. My parents had left, and I
had to go on the bus. On the second day I was there, I saw
immorality going on between the boys and girls, and nothing was
said about it. I did not like it at all. Then Mr. Weida came to me
and asked if I had been talking about what was going on. I said,
"'No ; I do not want to know anything about it." My mother being a
German was naturally sympathetic with Germans. I did not like
it ; I thought it was wrong. I did not like it when this leader made
advances to me. I kept a stiff upper lip until I went to Germany.
The Chairman. That was before you went to Germany.
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. I think we have covered your experiences at Camp
Siegfried and Camp Nordland. That was in 1937.
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. When you came back, and got back into the routine
of the youth movement, what followed? First, when did you first
hear of the proposed German trip ?
Miss Vooros. The first time was in September. Two leaders,
Ereka Hagebusch and Franz Nicolay, were going to Germany to
study at Stuttgart. The bund sent each year two or three leaders
to Germany. In this year, 1938, was the first time they were sending
15 boys and 15 girls to Germany.
Mr. Whitley. They sent the whole group at that time.
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What was the object in sending them?
Miss Vooros. To study National Socialism, and, naturally, when
they returned they would spread the propaganda.
Mr. Whitley. Going back to the incident or occasion on which you
heard the proposed trio mentioned, when was that ?
Miss Vooros. That was in the fall of 1937. We were to go to
Nuremberg in the National Socialist State; we were to go in Sep-
tember 1938, and they spoke to us about that in the fall of 1937.
3908 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Who told you about the proposed trip \
Miss Vooros. Mr. Dinkelacker.
Mr. Whitley. Who was to make that trip ?
Miss Vooros. Fifteen boys and 15 girls, from all over the United
States.
Mr. Whitley. To be selected from all over the United States \
Miss Vooros. Yes; the most active members.
Mr. Whitley. Who was to make the selection?
Miss Vooros. The Youth leaders.
Mr. Whitley. In the different sections?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. They told you about that in September 1937 '.
Miss Vooros. They did.
Mr. Whitley. That this group of 15 boys and 15 girls were to be
sent to Germany in September 1938?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did they say at that time who was to make that
trip ?
Miss Vooros. Not on that date.
Mr. Whitley. Did they say how many out of your group were to
make that trip ?
Miss Vooros. No; they said the most active leaders, but they have
to obtain quite a bit of knowledge in return.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, the ones they thought could best
undergo that training and carry it out ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. Before we leave that subject of propaganda, which
is very important, did they tell you how to spread propaganda, and
among whom you were to talk in behalf of national socialism, in
behalf of the German Government ?
Miss Vooros. They said mainly among the younger group, because
we would later grow up.
The Chairman. Were you to talk among those on the inside, or
among outsiders?
Miss Vooros. Outsiders. We were taught that the bund is for Ger-
mans, could consist only of Germans. Thev' said that while other
people would come in, they would be sympathizers, and would never
become leaders.
The Chairman. Did you have some people in there who were not
citizens of the United States?
Miss Vooros. Quite a few.
The Chairman. Who were citizens of Germany?
Miss Vooros. Citizens of Germany.
The Chairman. So the purpose of sending you over there was to
have you receive instruction in naziism?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. In Nazi technique, Nazi propaganda method.-, so
you could return to the United States and spread that among people
in any classes that might be said to be sympathetic (
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. After you first heard of this proposed trip in the
fall of 1937, did you hear any more about it?
Miss Vooros. No; they did not say anything more about it until
the early part of 1938. They said there are camps in Germany
I \ AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3909
which would give us more knowledge than we would get it: we went
in September. We will probably only see their fuehrer, and that
was all. They said at this camp we would get 6 weeks of training
in national socialism that was just perfect.
Mr. Whitley. The original plan was to send this group over in
September 1938?
Bliss Vookos. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What camp was that that you were supposed to
go to '.
Miss VooROS. It was the Hitler youth camp near Berlin.
Mr. Whitley. Was that the one they first proposed to send you to?
.Miss Vooros. They did not propose to send us to a camp, but just
to have us go to Nuremberg.
Mr. Whitley. Then the}r changed the plan?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And decided to send you when?
Miss Vooros. In April.
Mr. Whitley. In April 1938?
Miss Vooros. Yes; that is right.
Mr. Whitley. The reason they made that change was that by
sending you in April they could send you to the camp?
Miss Vcoros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What was the name of that camp?
Miss Vooros. Camp Haubertosehohe.
The Chairman. The reason they did not send you at first was
that the only person you would see was Hitler?
Miss Vooros. That is right.
The Chairman. They wanted you to have the benefit of the in-
structions in the camp?
Miss Vocros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. When did you first hear that the original plan was
changed ?
Miss Vooros. In February 1938.
Mr. Whitley. When did you find out that you were to be selected
as 1 of the 15 girls to be sent over?
Miss Vooros. That was several days later. I was called into
Dinkelackers office, to the office of the leader in South Brooklyn,
and Vandenberg was there, and I was recommended to represent
Brooklyn.
Mr. Whitley. You were to represent Brooklyn on that trip?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Going on a little further, you learned in February
that you were to make the trip in April. What instructions were
given you; what plans were made for this trip?
Miss Vooros. First, we were to keep our mouths shut about the
whole matter. No one was supposed to know about this. There
was just to be a trip to visit Germany.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, you were not to talk about why
you were going or with whom you were going ?
Miss Vooros. No; he said it would be very dangerous if anyone
found out what our purpose was, but that we could all be trusted,
after a careful examination as to how we acted, and he thought it
would be all right to send us.
94931— 39— vol. 6- 14
3910 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. In that connection, Miss Vooros, during the regular
routine meetings, or the regular routine proceedings of the Youth
Movement, did they caution the members not to discuss what went
on, or to talk about their activities in those meetings, on the outside ?
Miss Vooros. They never did anything they could talk about.
Mr. Whitley. They had these drills; did they try to keep those
secret ?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, as to the regular meetings, they did
not feel that thev had to caution you about discussing them?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. But when it came to the point of making this trip
to Germany they did very specifically instruct you that you were not
to talk about it?
Miss Vooros. Yes; Mr. Dinkelacker had previously received a
letter from Hugo Haas.
Mr. Whitley. Who was he?
Miss Vooros. He was a leader in Kidgewood several years ago.
He is now an active member of the V. D. A. in Germany, the league
of Germans living abroad.
Mr. Whitley. He was a former bund leader in Brooklyn?
Miss Vooros. In Ridgewood.
Mr. Whitley. And for the past several years he has been an offi-
cial of the V. D. A. in Germany?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was he making the plans on the other side for this
trip?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; because the trip was sponsored in Germany, and
Germany wanted us to go on the trip, and Mr. Dinkelacker had been
notified about it. He stated distinctly that we were to keep quiet
about the matter and not let anyone know, even if our parents asked
us we could say it was a trip to Germany.
Mr. Whitley. A pleasure trip?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. With no particular purpose for it?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. You say Mr. Hugo Haas wrote those instructions
to Mr. Dinkelacker and Mr. Dinkelacker gave those instructions to
you? Did you see that letter?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did you see it and read it, or did Mr. Dinkelacker
refer to it?
Miss Vooros. It was on the desk, and we girls gathered around to
see it. It was two or three pages long, with instructions, that he
would meet us on that trip in Germany.
Mr. Whitley. But he specifically said no one was to know the
purpose of that trip?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. In addition to the propaganda work you had to
do, was anything said about how you would learn about any secrets
over here, to be told them over there, in reference to our country?
Have you ever been told that you should learn where our shipyards
and munitions factories are?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 391 1
Miss Vooros. No; but before I left for Germany I was given a
letter by someone to take to Germany. It was given to me by Mr.
Vandenberg, and he got it from Mr. Winterscheidt. I do not know
what was contained in that letter, and after I was on the ship 2
or 3 days a certain man was to have the letter. He was the political
leader on the ship, and he came and asked for it.
The Chairman. You were given a sealed letter?
Miss Vooros. I was given a sealed letter.
The Chairman. You were given that sealed letter by whom?
Miss Vooros. Mr. Vandenberg.
The Chairman. Who is he?
Miss Vooros. He is a leader in South Brooklyn.
The Chairman. Is he a citizen of the United States or Germany?
Miss Vooros. I do not know whether he is a citizen or not.
The Chairman. You said he got it from someone else.
Miss Vooros. From Mr. Winterscheidt.
The Chairman. What is Mr. Vandenberg's first name ?
Miss Vooros. His name is Frederick Vandenberg.
The Chairman. He got the letter from whom ?
Miss Vooros. From Mr. Winterscheidt.
The Chairman. What is his first name ?
Miss Vooros. Severn.
The Chairman. How do you know he got the letter from Mr.
Winterscheidt ?
Miss Vooros. I was told to go to Mr. Winterscheidt's office and I
was to get some pictures, and I got pictures of the German-American
Bund at meetings, because I was sent on a mission; I was to make
a speech about what our organization was doing here.
The Chairman. Where is Mr. Vandenberg now?
Miss Vooros. He is in Brooklyn.
The Chairman. Where is Mr. Winterscheidt?
Miss Vooros. He is in prison, at Rikers Island.
The Chairman. So you were given both a letter and pictures to
take back?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. You do not know what was in the letter ?
Miss Vooros. I do not. It was addressed to Stuttgart, the main
office of the propaganda office for Germans abroad.
The Chairman. You were to take that to the Foreign Institute?
Miss Vooros. I was not to take it, but a man would call for it.
The Chairman. On board ship?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; on the steamship Hamburg.
The Chairman. One of the political leaders?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. You were to hand it to him ?
the Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. What about the pictures ?
Miss Vooros. I was to keep the pictures.
The Chairman. They were pictures of what?
Miss Vooros. I think they were pictures of the various meetings.
The Chairman. Why was Winterscheidt sent to prison?
Miss Vooros. On immorality charges, and for indecent exposure.
Mr. Whitley. He was convicted in Brooklyn for endangering the
morals of a 10-year old girl, in the first instance, and then for indecent
3912 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
exposure at the Pennsylvania station in New York City. He is now
serving time in connection with the charge of endangering the morals
of a minor, and the minor was a 10-year-old girl.
Mr. Starnes. What is Mr. Winterscheidt's official capacity in the
bund ?
Miss Vooros. He was in charge of the newspaper, the German weekly
newspaper.
Mr. Starnes. That is the Weckruf imd Beobachter, the German
newspaper published in New York City?
Miss Vooros. Yes. He was responsible for that paper.
Mr. Whitley. Coming back, Miss Vooros, after j^ou had been selected
in February to make this trip, you received your instructions from Mr.
Dinkelacker, who, in turn had been instructed by Mr. Hugo Haas, in
Germany, as to what you were to bring with you?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did you get instructions as to the time you were to
sail and the boat you were to sail on ?
Miss Vooros. We were told we were to sail on the steamship Ha?)i-
burr/, and we were to bring plain clothes and our uniforms, but our
uniforms we were not allowed to wear when we were leaving here be-
cause of the fear that reporters in New York would get wise to \vhe fact
that we were leaving.
Mr. Whitley. Did this group of 15 boys and 15 girls from all over
the United States have any other instructions, or were they given any
money ?
Miss Vooros. We were given some money ; some of the girls and boys
who came from Los Angeles were given money ; we were each given $20.
Mr. Whitley. Who gave you that money ?
Miss Vooros. The money was given to me by Mr. Dinkelacker.
Mr. Whitley. Given to you in cash ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. To your knowledge, did the ones j^ou know who
made the trip all get the same amount of money?
Miss Vooros. All except Mrs. Klapproth.
Mr. Whitley. Where did she come from?
Miss Vooros. New Jersey.
Mr. Whitley. She was one of the 15 girls?
Miss Vooros. She represented New Jersey.
Mr. Whitley. Who is Mrs. Klapproth ?
Miss Vooros. She is the wife of the man who has been trying to
get a liquor license in New Jersey, Mr. August Klapproth.
Mr. Whitley. He is the leader in New Jersey ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; he is the leader in New Jersey.
Mr. Whitley. Of the German-American Bund?
Miss Vooros. Yes; he is the leader at Camp Nordland.
Mr. Thomas. He is one of the incorporators of Camp Nord-
land ?
Miss Vooros. One of the incorporators.
Mr. Whitley. Did she tell you why she got more than $20?
Miss Vooros. I was at the office
Mr. Whitley. That they gave her more money because she needed
it to make preparations to go?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What office was that?
DN-AMERICAN PR< U'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 3913
Miss Vooros. That was Mr. Dinkelacker's office; that was on Long
Island, at Belmont Avenue and Ninety-sixth Street.
Mr. Whitley. Did you get your own passport ?
Miss Vcohos. I got my own passport.
Mr. Whitley. Did you get it through the State Department rep-
resentative in New York?
Miss Vooros. Yes; I did.
Mr. Whitley. Do you have that passport here?
Miss Vooros. Yes. [Handing passport to Mr. Whitley.]
Mr. Whitley. Is this your passport, Miss Vooros [showing pass-
port to Miss Vooros] ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That will be marked "Vooros Exhibit No. 2."
I The passport referred to was marked "Vooros Exhibit No. 2."')
Mr. Whitley. This is passport No. 495796, issued to Helen Irene
Vooros, 390 Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn, N. Y.
This is the passport you used for this trip to Germany?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Were there any further instructions received, or
an}" plans made with reference to that trip that you were to make
in April?
Miss Vooros. Yes; and Mr. Dinkelacker was going on with us.
Mr. Whitley. He was going with you?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And he said that when he got on board, and his
name was not listed?
Miss Vooros. It was not on the passenger list, because they said
if they ever found out about it the publicity would not do us any
good.
Mr. Whitley. Every precaution was taken to make certain no
one found out about this group going over there?
Miss Vooros. Yes; and I also happened to look at the passenger
list, and I did not see the name of Dinkelacker there.
Mr. Whitley. You were instructed how to conduct yourselves, so
far as getting on the boat was concerned, and what you were to do
in getting on the boat ?
Miss Vooros. Mr. Dinkelacker told us that we were not to call him
Mr. Dinkelacker, that we were to call him Theo, short for Theodore,
and not to call him Mr. Dinkelacker on board the ship. We did go
on board the ship, and I was given this material to give to this
man.
Mr. Whitley. Who gave you that material? You were given a
letter?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. When were you given that letter?
Miss Vooros. Before we sailed.
Mr. Whitley. Just before you sailed?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Were you already on the boat?
Miss Vooros. Yes; Mr. Wrinterscheidt and Mr. Vandenberg were
on the boat with me.
Mr. Whitley. What time did the boat sail?
Miss Vooros. Shortly after 12.
Mr. Whitley. That is, after midnight?
3914 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What date?
Miss Vooros. I went on the ship on April 2 at 11 o'clock and
sailed on April 3.
Mr. Whitley. Some time after midnight ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did you go on board by yourself?
Miss Vooros. My parents were with me.
Mr. Whitley. You went on separately ?
Miss Vooros. We had to go on separately.
Mr. Whitley. Had you met any of the other members of the group-
before you got on the boat, other than Mrs. Klapproth?
Miss Vooros. No ; I saw the group.
Mr. Whitley. The group did not all come together?
Miss Vooros. No; we were told we were not supposed to come
together.
Mr. Whitley. The ones coming into New York
Miss Vooros. The ones that came from California stayed at Mr.
Dinkelacker's house, and the others were at another house; I did
not meet them until we were on the boat.
Mr. Whitley. After you got on the boat on the evening of April
2, you saw Mr. Dinkelacker?
Miss Vooros. Mr. Vandenberg came to that stateroom ; I know Mr.
Vandenberg and Mr. Winterscheidt ; and Mr. Vandenberg gave me
a letter, and I took the letter and threw it on the bed. They said
I should not do that, and so he tucked it under my pillow and said
not to forget that it was very important. He had given me introduc-
tory letters that I should give to the people on the Rhine, because
his brother is a political leader in Germany, and a distant relative is
a youth leader in Switzerland. He had given me these introductory
letters.
Mr. Whitley. When they came to that stateroom after you got
on the boat, they gave you the sealed envelope. Did they tell you
what was in it?
Miss Vooros. They did not. It was a brown envelope.
Mr. Whitley. What did they tell you were to do with it?
Miss Vooros. They told me a man would call for the letter, and I
should give it to him, and that was a political leader on board the
ship.
Mr. Whitley. They did not tell you who he was?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. Did they tell you when he would call for them ?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. How were you to know he was the man you were
to give them to? »
Miss Vooros. This man would know the room in which I would
be, and he said, "Did Mr. Vandenbere; give you a letter?" I said,.
"Yes." He looked at the date of it and tore open the seal.
Mr. Whitley. It was a wax seal, was it?
Miss Vooros. No ; just a seal that you paste on.
Mr. Whitley. When did the man call for that letter?
Miss Vooros. Two days later.
Mr. Whitley. You were 2 days at sea?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3915
Mr. Whitley. When he came around he just told you he wanted
the letter?
Miss Vooeos. Yes; that it was for him.
Mr. Whitley. You gave it to him?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You found out later — you called him the political
leader on the boat (
Miss Vooeos. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What are the duties of a political leader on a
boat?
-Miss Vooros. Each German ship has a political leader, because
when the time comes when they have to vote, like the case of the
Anschluss in Austria, it would be the duty of the political leader to
see that everything goes along all right, to see that every member
on a German ship is a member of the Nazi Party, and that when the
new laws come out these people on the ship would know about
them.
Mr. Starnes. Can you tell the names of some of the people to
whom letters of introduction were addressed, and what position
they hold?
Miss Vooros. That was on the letter ?
Mr. Starnes. No; I mean the letters given you. You said you
were given letters of introduction.
Miss Vooros. Yes; that was to the Nazi officials on the Rhine and
the other man
Mr. Starnes. What was his name?
Miss Vooros. Mr. Vandenberg was his brother, and the Rhine
man was Reiner Leprell.
Mr. Thomas. Where did he live?
Miss Vooeos. At that time he fled from Switzerland. He had
charge of the Youth Movement in Switzerland.
The Chairman. There were two letters, one to Mr. Vandenberg's
brother ?
Miss Vooros. Yes; because I was to make a speech down there.
The Chairman. A Nazi political leader?
Miss Vooros. And there were two other letters.
The Chairman. The next one was to whom ?
Miss Vooros. Reiner Leprell.
The Chairman. He was a youth leader in Switzerland?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. Who was the third Tetter addressed to?
Miss Vooros. The other was the brown letter.
Mr. Thomas. As to this man who came and secured that brown
letter from you, did you find out what his name was?
Miss Vooros. His picture is here; I have not got his name.
Mr. Thomas. You have his picture?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you learn what position he held?
Miss Vooros. Political leader. He is a member of the crew. He
wears the Nazi uniform on board ship.
Mr. Whitley. What is his function as political leader on the
boat?
Miss Vooros. He takes care of the political angle of everything
there, when there is voting or speeches to make.
3916 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Do all the boats have those political leaders?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; and he is there for another thing because, while
I was a member of the Youth Movement, Dinkelacker was down there
once or twice a month, and he makes out the report each month about
the Youth Movement, and that is sent to Germany. I found out
where it went to because when I was in Hugo Haas' office he gets a
report.
The Chairman. Did you say Dinkelacker sent the report?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. With reference to the Youth Movement, to Ger-
many?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. How often?
Miss Vooros. Once or twice a month.
The Chairman. How do you know that to be a fact?
Miss Vooros. We were having a meeting
The Chairman. When?
Miss Vooros. About a couple of weeks after I joined, 4 or 5 weeks in
June, and Tillie Koch
The Chairman. Where was the meeting?
Miss Vooros. In south Brooklyn. Tillie Koch said, right after the
meeting, they were going to the German ship ; and I said I wanted to
go with her and, it being that Tillie Koch liked me, she had told me
all her troubles she had. She said I could go with her. No one
else knew about this, and I really should not have gone. I met her
on Forty-second Street and Dinkelacker was there. Dinkelacker
wanted to know who I was. She said I was a very good member
of the Youth Movement. They were going down to the boat, and
we met on the boat the Hitler youth members. Then they began
talking about the work in that movement. They have work in differ-
ent places, and we were to see them.
Meanwhile Dinkelacker went to the political leader and he had a
brown package about this size [indicating], and it was the report.
The Chairman. How do you know it was the report?
Miss Vooros. I later found out. I found out that the movement
here is in constant contact with Germany, and they have to send a
report ; it is compulsory that they send a report to Germany.
The Chairman. That is your statement, but I want to know how
you found that out. Did some one tell you that?
Miss Vooros. Tillie Koch said Dinkelacker had some business with
the political leader, and she was the leader in south Brooklyn.
Mr. Whitley. You were with her and Dinkelacker when they went
down to the boat ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And she said she had some business?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; and she met with the political leader.
Mr. Whitley. Did he leave you after you got on the boat?
Miss Vooros. Yes; after I left them, Vandenberg found I was
on the boat, and Tillie Koch got a bawling out from him, because he
said I was not in the movement, and she had no right to take me.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Whitley, can you develop the identification of
this political leader on the boat (
r how
, with
■ went
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3917
Mr. Whitley. I believe you said that at the time lie called for
(he letter you did not know him, but he told you he wanted the
letter from Mr. Vandenberg and you gave it to him?
Miss Vookos. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You did not know the contents of that letter, did
you?
Miss Vooros. All I know is that it was in a long brown envelope
addressed to Stuttgart.
Mr. Whitley. It did not have any name on it?
Miss Vooros. No; it said, "V. D. A." in Stuttgart.
Mr. Whitley. Yrou did not know what his position was or who
the man Mas at the time he called for the letter?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. Yrou later found that out on the trip over?
Miss Vooros. Y^es.
Mr. Whitley. That he was the political leader on the boat?
Miss Vooros. Y^es; because it was the pictures that Winterscheidt
had given me previous to that, and his picture was among them.
Mr. Whitley. Why did Winterscheidt give you that picture, Miss
Vooros ?
Miss Vooros. I do not know why he gave it to me. They were
pictures of our movement, so we could show it to
Mr. Whitley. He gave you the pictures so you could show the
people in Germany, so you could explain to them what your move-
ment in the United States was doing, is that right?
Miss Vooros. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. On the trip over, how did you find out what this
man's position was? Was that in conversation with other members
of the group?
Miss Vooros. No. There was one girl, a very active member of the
bund, Margaret Scheck
Mr. Whitley. Where was she from?
Miss Vooros. New York, Manhattan. That is, she works there.
She lives in Ridgewood. She knows about everything there is to
know about the bund. But I made mention of it; that is, why did
they not give this letter to Margaret Scheck and they said that
she was a little too careless about matters.
Mr. Whitley. As far as you know, were you the only one of the
group who had such a letter to deliver ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; I think I was the only one.
Mr. Whitley. And on the trip over, you found out that this man
was known as the political leader on the boat, is that right?
Miss Vooros. The political leader; yes.
Mr. Whitley. But you did not find out his name?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. Did you see him any more on the boat? Did you
see him around on the boat?
Miss Vooros. I saw him in uniform, because they were voting while
we were on the way, they were voting on the Anschluss.
Mr. Whitley. On the Austrian Anschluss ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That was on the trip going over?
3918 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And the members of the crew voted, did they?
Miss Vooros. Yes; they all voted.
Mr. Whitley. And who was in charge of that meeting ? Did you
attend the meeting where they voted ?
Miss Vooros. No. I was a citizen of the United States, and I could
not.
Mr. Whitley. You could not vote?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. Were any members of the group, the 15 boys and
15 girls that you were with, in attendance at the meeting or the vote?
Miss Vooros. Some of them attended the meeting, I know.
Mr. Whitley. You do not' know whether any of them voted or
not?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. But you do know that the crew of the ship on your
trip over took a vote?
Miss Vcoros. Yes. Also the passengers, the passengers who were
German citizens.
Mr. Whitley. The passengers who were German citizens also
voted ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was there much discussion about that voting?
Miss Vooros. Yes. They all thought that it was going to be 100
percent, but there were three who were against it. So I wanted to
know why.
Mr. Whitley. There were three votes against the Anschluss?
Miss Vooros. There were three votes against the Anschluss. They
thought it was just someone trying to be funny and trying to find out
whether the noes would come out on the vote.
Mr. Whitley. And did they come out?
Miss Vooros. They did ; three of them.
Mr. Whitley. Was there any comment made about the fact that it
was not 100 percent?
Miss Voorcs. No; but they took it for granted that someone was
just trying to be different.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know who conducted the meeting at which
the vote was taken?
Miss Vooros. I was not there, but I know the political leader did.
Mr. Whitley. You heard that?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You did not see it ?
Miss Vooros. No ; I did not see it, but that is what he is there for.
There is a political leader, you see. There are two men on board
ship, on each German ship, a political leader and a propaganda
leader. The propaganda leader is the one that holds all the speeches.
Mr. Whitley Do they keep in touch when those boats are in the
harbor of New York with the bund leaders?
Miss Vooros. They are in constant touch with them.
Mr. Whitley. The bund leaders go down to the boat and meet these
men?
Miss Vooros. Yps. The mT>naganda leaders of the boats come to
our meetings and hold speeches.
& mat
tbesi
Ik]
Jlr.1T
few,
UX AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3919
Mr. Whitley. You mean when the boats are docked in New York,
the leaders off the boats come to the bund meetings?
)}([. I Miss Vooros. I have seen them in Kuhn's office.
Mr. Whitley. You have seen them in Kuhn's office?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. How did you know who they were?
Miss Vooros. Because I know some of them. On every German
ship there are these leaders and they are always in contact. For
instance, the steamship llama — well, I did not know that one. But
on the steamship Colwribus a very active member of the Nazi Party
here, too; he always makes the anti-Masonic speeches, because he is
well trained in that, and whenever the boat is in he goes from group
to group. They call special meetings and he lectures them.
Mr. Whitley. He makes the speeches to the American groups ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Now. getting back to the trip over, you had been
warned and you assumed that all the other members of the group had
been warned, not to let any one know what the purpose was, is that
right ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did you have any instructions as to how to conduct
yourself on board ship?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; we were to be very careful. We had the freedom
of the entire ship.
Mr. Whitley. What class did you travel?
Miss Vooros. We traveled third class, but we were always up with
the captain.
Mr. Whitley. You had the run of the ship ?
Miss Vooros. Yes. Some of the girls wanted to go swimming, and
they were allowed to go in the first-class swimming pool.
Mr. Whitley. There were no questions asked?
Miss Vooros. No ; we had dinner with the captain several times.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, he knew what the group was?
Miss Vooros. He was well aware of the fact ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Who furnished your transportation? You did not
buy your own ticket, did you?
Miss Vooros. No. That was supplied by Germany.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, so far as you know, no transporta-
:ion was charged ?
Miss Vooros. Dinkelacker said Germany was doing quite a bit for
us, making it possible for us to come over there, and we were to try
3ur best.
Mr. Whitley. The trip did not cost you, at least up to this point,
a cent?
Miss Vooros. Did not cost us anything; no.
Mr. Whitley. And in addition to the transportation, they had
given you $20 for the trip, is that right ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You had to buy your own passport ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; I got my own passport.
Mr. Whitley. Out of the $20 that they gave you ?
Miss Vooros. No ; I had my own money.
>ys and
ie vote?
oted or
on your
10 were
us also
gl
fbe 100
inted to
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: w
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rein
RSD
3920 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Thomas. I think it would be advisable to have the name of
the captain, if you have it.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. Do you recall the name of the captain ?
Miss Vooros. Yes; Captain Koch.
Mr. Whitley. Captain Koch was the captain of the Hamburg?
Miss Vooros. The S. S. Hamburg.
Mr. Whitley. Returning again to the matter of the expenses, do
you know whether that $20 which was given you and the sums of
money which were given the other members of this group — do you
know who supplied that money? ^
Miss Vooros. The bund.
Mr. Whitley. That came from the bund, in the United States?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Is that just an assumption on your part, or did
someone tell you that?
Miss Vooros. We were told that the bund was giving us the money.
Mr. Whitley. Who told you that?
Miss Vooros. Mr. Dinkelacker.
Mr. Whitley. Who told you that the German Government was
furnishing the transportation?
Miss Vooros. That came, I think, with the letter that Hugo Haas
sent us. He said that we had no other alternative but to make
a good impression on the Nazi officials, because Germany was making
it possible for us to take the trip.
Mr. Whitley. Germany was making it possible for you to take
the trip?
Miss Vooros. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. By way of furnishing your transportation over
there?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. At least that was the inference that you drew?
Miss Vooros. Yes. And then they were giving us money in Ger-
many to get along on.
Mr. Whitley. What were your instructions as to how to conduct
yourself on shipboard?
Miss Vooros. We were to be very careful because we found out
that Mr. Jacobs, Schmeling's trainer, was on board.
Mr. Whitley. Is that Mr. Joe Jacobs?
Miss Vooros. Joe Jacobs was on board.
Mr. Whitley. He was on the same ship with you ?
Miss Vooros. Yes. He was going over. And we were to be very
careful, because he was Jewish.
Mr. Whitley. And you were not to wear your uniforms on board,
is that right?
Miss Vooros. No. But we had a certain routine. At 12 o'clock
at night, two or three times a week, after every one had retired, we
had to get up, put on our uniforms, and go out on the front of the
ship, and stand in line formation.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, after the boat left, during the day
you did not have any training or any drills or anything of that
kind.
Miss Vooros. No ; not the first couple of days.
Mr. Whitley. And then after that, on two or three occasions, late
at night, they had you put on your uniforms.
4t«
or >i
:o Ha:
O link
inakii
to (afc
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3921
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was that both the boys and the girls?
Miss Vooros. Both the boys and the girls. And we had to go
out in front of the ship, and one boy and one girl would stand on
guard on the stairs.
Mr. Whitley. What would you do, just go through some drill
formation ?
Miss Vooros. Drill formation, yes; and they were telling us how
we should act when we arrived in Germany.
Mr. Whitley. They gave you instructions as to how to conduct
yourself over there?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What was the tenor of those instructions?
Miss Vooros. What is that?
Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of those instructions as to how
you were to conduct yourself when you got over there ?
Miss Vooros. We had to dress in full uniform; and they told us
about right turn and left turn and marching; that when these Nazi
officials would meet us aboard, we had to make a good impression.
Mr. Whitley. They wanted the Amercan group to make a good
impression on the Nazi officials?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. On the trip over, were you given any lectures or
any training?
Miss Vooros. We had one. They thought this would be important.
We had to know the name of all of our leaders here in this country;
who the fuehrer was in this country and all along down the line,
starting from Kuhn.
Mr. Whitley. Did they give you instructions as to who the Ameri-
can leaders were, on the way over?
Miss Vooros. Yes. They gave us a sort of a little test. We were
jn fe told who was the fuehrer and who was the secretary, and all the way
down the line.
Mr. Whitley. And that was so that you would be thoroughly
familiar with the organization?
, ,j Miss Vooros. In case they asked us.
Mr. Whitley. Were there any other incidents that occurred on
shipboard going over?
Miss Vooros. Mr. Dinkelacker made it clear to us that it was a
little vacation for him. At least, he told us that he was having a
good time. He was found in bed with one of the leaders about the
sixth day that we were going. He was found in bed with one of the
leaders. She was only 17 years old.
Mr. Whitley. Was that a New York girl ?
Miss Vooros. She was from the Bronx.
Mr. Whitley. What happened as a result of that ?
Miss Vooros. They called a meeting and they told us what we were
supposed to do about that. I stated that he was our youth leader and
we were supposed to look up to him and that was not very nice. But
they told us that we were to keep our mouths shut about it. That
is what Mrs. Klapproth said. She called a special meeting and told
us we were not to mention a word about it.
This girl's cabin was right across the way from mine. I took a
pitcher of water and wet the entire bed. They sort of squealed on
)n ovi
ffl
lY'l '
nfii
the da;
3922 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
me and said that I did it. She came over to me and asked me why
I did it, and I said that it would be a good excuse for the girl to
sleep some place else.
Mr. Thomas. Let me ask this question. Mrs. Klapproth is the wife
of August Klapproth; is that right?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. And he is the incorporator of Camp Nordland, and is
now trying to get a liquor license from the State of New Jersey for
that place?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. When did you arrive, to the best of your recollec-
tion, in Germany?
Miss Vooros. Eight days later, the 11th.
Mr. Whitley. The 11th of April 1938?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What was your port of arrival ?
Miss Vooros. Coxhaven.
Mr. Whitley. Did you have any instructions from Dinkelacker or
anyone else as to how you were to get off the boat ?
Miss Vooros. No; we were dressed in full uniform; knapsack and
everything on. We were not allowed to leave the ship with the
passengers. We had to wait, I think it was 4 hours before we left
the ship, when these Nazi officials came on board. Hugo Haas was
among them.
Mr. Whitley. He was one of the Nazi officials who came on board
to greet you?
Mr. Whitley. And they kept you on board until about 1 hours
after all the other passengers had gone?
Miss Vooros. Yes. They looked us over. I had one of these small
American flags in the lapel of my uniform jacket. He came over —
I was not the only one; there were some others — he came over and
said I should take that American flag off; what was I trying to do?
By wearing it I would insult the German Government, because they
were the ones that made it possible for us to come over there; that I
was insulting national socialism, and I should take it off my jacket,
Mr. Whitley. So, 4 hours after the boat docked, did you all march
off together?
Miss Vooros. No; Mr. Dinkelacker made mention that Kuhn was in
Berlin and I think Dinkelacker was to see Kuhn, to see that every-
thing went along smoothly ; that we had arrived. We had 2 weeks'
vacation and we could go wherever we wanted.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, you heard Dinkelacker say that
Kuhn was in Berlin at that time?
Miss Vooros. Kuhn was in Berlin at that time. He left in Feb-
ruary.
Mr. Whitley. Kuhn had left in February 1938 to go to Germany?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And he was still there?
Miss Vooros. He was still there.
Mr. Whitley. Did you go off the boat — or what did you do after
you got off the boat?
Miss Vooros. We went to Hamburg?
Mr. Whitley. By train or bus?
Miss Vooros. By train; special train.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3923
Mr. Whitley. You went directly to Hamburg?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. In your uniforms?
Mi-s Vooros. In uniforms. And we were assigned to our quarters.
We lived with people.
Mr. Starnes. I should like to ask one or two questions. Did you
wear your uniforms at any time aboard ship?
Mi^s Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. AVhen?
Miss Vooros. After 12 o'clock midnight, when we had to go in line.
Mr. Starnes. Why?
Miss Vooros. Well, we would have to get in line formation and
march around the boat, around the front of the ship.
Mr. Starnes. And that was after midnight?
Miss Vooros. After every one had retired ; yes.
Mr. Starnes. Did Mr. Dinkelacker warn you against associating
with anybody else aboard the ship beside those you have mentioned?
Miss Vooros. Yes. We were supposed to be careful with whom
we talked, especially Mr. Jacobs.
Mr. Starnes. What Jacobs is that?
Miss Vooros. Joe Jacobs. He was manager for Max Schmeling.
Mr. Staiines. Why did he want you to stay away from Joe Jacobs,
because he was an American citizen?
Miss Vooros. Because he was a Jew, we were told.
Mr. Starnes. You were told he was a Jew, and you should stay
away from him?
Miss Vooros. Yes; that it would not be any good to associate with
him, because he was quite friendly with us.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know who made it possible for you to make
the trip to Germany; how many people cooperated or what organ-
izations cooperated, or what governments cooperated? Can you tell
us that?
Miss Vooros. There was the Hamburg- American Line. We went
on the railway, and the German Government.
Mr. Starnes. What railway is that, the German Tourist Railway?
Miss Vooros. Yes. We were given tickets after we arrived, so that
we could have free transportation in Germany.
Mr. Starnes. Did the bund have anything to do with arranging
your trip?
Miss Vooros. They gave us the money. They gave the girls the
j money to come to New York, from there to leave to go to Europe.
Mr. Starnes. What about this V. D. A.?
Miss Vooros. That, is the V. D. A. ; yes.
Mr. Starnes. The bund, the V. D. A., the German Tourist Railway
Information Service, and the Hamburg Steamship Line all combined
to make it possible for you to take this trip ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. They were the agencies that combined and placed
their services at your disposal for this trip?
Miss Vooros. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. You were given some spending money after your
arrival in Germany, were you not?
Miss Vooros. Yes. That was after we were in Hamburg.
Mr. Whitley. How much were you given on that occasion ?
3924 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss Vooros. We were given 50 marks.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know the source of that money?
Miss Vooros. That came from the V. D. A.
Mr. Whitley. From the V. D. A. office?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. The committee will recess until 1 : 30 p. m.
(Whereupon, the committee recessed until 1:30 p. m.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
The committee met pursuant to taking of a recess at 1 : 30 p. m.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order, please.
Mr. Whitley. Will you continue?
TESTIMONY OF MISS HELEN VOOROS— Resumed
Mr. Whitley. Miss Vooros, the uniform which you have on is the
official uniform of the German-American Bund, the Youth Move-
ment ?
Miss Vooros. Not at the time I was a member : when I came back
from Germany this was given to me
Mr. Whitley. That was given to you?
Miss Vcoros. When I came back from Germany it was given to me
by Hugo Haas.
Mr. Whitley. When you returned from Germany Hugo Haas gave
you that uniform?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And that is the official uniform of the Hitler Youth
Movement ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Is there any difference between that uniform, the
official German urn form of the Youth Movement in Germany and the
uniform of the Youth Movement in this country?
Miss Vooros. Well, this is made in Germany [indicating].
Mr. Whitley. Is that the only difference?
Miss Vooros. No. You see the skirt has two pockets, two side
pockets.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Miss Vooros. These two side pockets [indicating]. And it has this
here [indicating] ; the American uniform didn't have this.
Mr. Whitley. Substantially the same in both countries?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Except in minor details?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. The girls in the Youth Movement in Germany use
the dark skirt and white shirt? \\>^
Miss Vooros. Yes. %\
Mr. Whitley. And the same Ifr §_
Miss Vooros (interposing). They haven't got this, the knot [in- \I. j
dicating]. j(;er[
Mr. Whitley. They do not use that particular insignia? )[L^
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. They have a plain knot. How about the knots?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3925
Miss Vooros. They haven't the same knot we have here [indicat-
ing] .
I Sir. Whitley. Otherwise the uniform is practically the same in the
United States and in Germany.
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. "Whitley. And that was given to you; and that is the Hitler
I youth's movement insignia?
Miss Vooros. This [indicating] is the Hitler movement sign.
Mr. Whitley. The same in Germany as in this country?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That is, the insignia?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You have some further insignia, have you?
Miss Vooros. I have some further.
Mr. Whitley. The swastika.
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Now, how about the uniform of the boys in the
Youth Movement in Germany and in this country; is it the same
uniform I
Miss Vooros. It is identical, with the exception of these marks [in-
dicating] .
Mr. Whitley. The same difference that you testified between the
uniform for the girls.
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. The same difference exists in the boys' uniform?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you have this knot in your uniform ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Here are some pins and insignia [handing articles
to witness]. Will you describe what they are; the swastika and the
ii. the other pin with the swastika on it.
Miss Vooros. This [indicating] was given to us before we left.
This [indicating] is the sign of the winter relief fund.
This button [indicating] was given to us in Germany. These were
given to wear on the white shirts [indicating] . And we had to wear
side this [indicating] over here.
Mr. Starxes. What is the significance of it?
Miss Vooros. What is what ?
Mr. Starxes. What is the significance of it ?
Miss Vooros. The German bow, it is called.
Mr. Starxes. For identification?
Mr. Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Starxtes. What about these buttons on the shirts, or whatever
you call them
Miss Vooros. Yes; they have the German inscription, "B. D. M."
Mr. Starxes. What is that for ?
Miss Vooros. That is the Youth Movement.
Mr. Starxes. Where was the uniform made ?
Miss Vooros. It is made in Germany ; the skirt [indicating] is made
in Germany.
Mr. Starxes. What is the "B. D. M." ; what does it stand for ?
Miss Vooros. This [indicating] is the division of the girls' group;
and this, the boys' group in the bund Youth Movement.
94931— 39— vol. 6 15
3926 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. And all this represents the bund ?
Miss Vooros. It was given us in Germany.
Mr. Starnes. To be worn over here ?
Miss Vooros. To be worn here. There was to be a plan that they
were going to be sent ; they had made arrangements under which they
were going to be sent from Germany to here.
Mr. Whitley. You mentioned this morning in your testimony the
fact that 3rou were given some photographs by Mr. Vandenberg.
Miss Vooros. Mr. Winterscheidt.
Mr. Whitley. To take over to exhibit to members of the National
Socialists in Germany, particularly friends of his, to demonstrate to
them and others what the German-American Bund and its various
divisions is doing in this country.
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And these are photographs which he gave you, are
they ?
Miss Vooros. These [indicating] ?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. These photographs are supposed to represent scenes
of German-American Bund activities in this country?
Miss Vocros. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. Will j^ou please take each one of them and tell what
the scene represents?
Miss Vooros. This one
The Chairman. That will not mean anything in the record.
Mr. Whitley. The photographs represent scenes of German-
American Bund activities in this country?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Suppose you give them to the reporter and let him
mark them.
(The photographs were marked, respectively, "Exhibit 3 and
3-A to 3-Y, inclusive.")
Mr. Whitley. Getting back to the trip, you had gotten off the
boat in Hamburg, I believe.
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. After you landed in Germany.
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And where did you go after you arrived in Ham-
burg?
Miss Vooros. We were invited to visit the homes of youth's leaders
in Hamburg.
Mr. Whitley. You were split up and assigned to various homes
of youth's leaders?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you stayed there a few days?
Miss Vooros. Yes; that is right, and then had a meeting before
we left with Hugo Haas, who was going to be the leader in Ger-
many, the camp leader, and would give all the instructions and
necessary particulars; and lie said that we were going to take a
ride over to the Elbe; and we had cameras, which were all taken
away from us, every camera, because they were building ships, and
they weren't allowing anyone to get any information or any pictures.
And after that trip was over we went to a movie; and that was —
everything was free.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3927
Mr. Whitley. You had no expense?
Miss Vooros. No expense.
Mr. AYhitley. Everything was free?
Miss Vooros. We were told that we were going to have 2 weeks
up there at that time, to do what we pleased, then after that we
ay ere to go
Mr. Whitley (interposing). You were just to visit around.
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And get acclimated.
Miss Vooros. In the homes of some of the people, and we were to
have some time to visit around, and they were to go to the station and
meet Mr. Dinkelacker and then I was to return to Berlin. That was
the first time we were in Hamburg. The next day we were to meet
Kuhn before we had to go to Berlin.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, you were just taking advantage of
the vacation given you in traveling around and visiting different
places.
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That was after you had been in Hamburg how long?
Miss Vooros. Two days.
Mr. Whitley. Two days ?
Miss Vooros. Yes — no ; a day and a half.
Mr. Whitley. And while you were there, in whose home did you
stay — you and the girls ?
Miss Vooros. In one of the leader's home.
Mr. Whitley. Do you remember the name of the leader?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. And then you were to come back, after a day and a
I half, after the group was broken up visiting relatives, and you were
then to reassemble, were you ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And proceed to Berlin ?
Miss Vooros. You see, my tour was made out for me ; I was to go
to north Germany.
Mr. Whitley. Who made out the tour for you ?
Miss Vooros. Mr. Vandenberg.
Mr. Whitley. Before you left this country ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That was at the time they were to make visits to
relatives and friends.
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You knew exactly where you were going?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You had been given the photographs ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, you had a mission to fulfill ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. So you proceeded to Berlin at the same time, the
same day, all together ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Dinkelacker was going to meet you — knew you were
coming.
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That is, the fuehrer of the German-American Bund,
that was in Germany.
3928 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
All right, continue on with your story.
Miss Vooros. And we went to Stettin's ; they took me out to Dinkel-
acker's.
Mr. Whitley. They were friends — —
Miss Vooros (interposing). Relatives of Mr. Vandenberg; the
names were Wegner, and they took me to Dusseldorf, and I met
friends of Mr. Vandenberg's and a youth leader, Renier Leprell,
and I told them what we were doing here, and they asked me what
specifically I was doing with my group in this country, and I ex-
plained that I did not go very strong on politics; that we had some
embroidery work that I was doing with my group of girls; that I
did not go much into the political angle, and they thought I should ;
they did not agree ; they said everything I did was wrong and that
they were going to show me what to do; and they told me that I
should teach German culture, and tell them they were Aryans and
emphasize that Aryans were different from others. And we were
given some books by Julius Streicher.
Mr. Whitley. Did they also suggest that you ought to tell the
members of your group — teach them race hatred?
Miss Vooros. Yes; Jews particularly were the ones we would
have to deal with.
Mr. Whitley. Julius Streicher is the man who set up the agency
for disseminating violent literature of antiracial and religious type?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did you show them the photographs that you had
with you?
Miss Vooros. Yes; and they were quite interested.
Mr. Whitley. The photographs of your activities in this country?
Miss Vooros. Yes; and I brought over some books, yearbooks of
the bund.
Mr. Whitley. For 1937 and 1938?
Miss Vooros. For 1937 and 1938.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Miss Vooros. And the 1937 book had the picture of Mr. Kuhn
with Hitler, and they were familiar with that; in fact, everything
that we showed them they seemed to be not a bit surprised; they
acted as if they already knew everything that was going on.
And in Hamburg we met two Nazi officers, and they just greeted
us as if they knew everything.
Mr. Whitley. That was while you were in Hamburg ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whiley. And every time you had occasion to show them J';
anything they seemed to know all about it?
Miss Vooros. All about it; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Where you were?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And what you went there for?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That was the recognition you received every place?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. All right; continue the story about the meeting at
Dusseldorf. You were telling us that you told them that you did
not stress the political, much.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3929
Miss Vooros. Yes. They said I should teach more of the na-
tional socialism ; that I would have to pay attention to socialism, and
acted surprised, and were going to send me books, more books. I
haven't received them, though they said they were going to send
me some books, and I was to give the books to the children so they
should study them.
Mr. Whitley. And they explained pretty well what the activities
you were to carry on; and you told them what you were doing?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And what was the next thing?
Miss Vooros. I went to my relatives, and I stayed there for 4 or 5
days.
The Chairman. To your relatives?
Miss Vooros. Yes; to my relatives.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, the witness has requested that not
too much be asked about that.
The Chairman. I understand.
Mr. Whitley. Continue on.
Miss Vooros. And it was time again for us to meet in Berlin ; we
had to be in Berlin on the 29th day of April, and that was about
the time when we were to meet Adolph Hitler, because May 1 was a
very important day for us, we were to meet the fuehrer, Adolph
Hitler ; and we stayed there 2 days, I think, and were getting ready.
And we got to the stadium, the Olympic Stadium, at 6 o'clock and at
8 o'clock we saw Adolph Hitler; he came in with the uniformed
Mr. Whitley (interposing). How did you enter the stadium?
Did you march in or did you go in just as a group ?
Miss Vooros. We went in just as a group. We had special seats
right under the fuehrer, I should say; he was about over us. He
was standing on some platform and we were sitting down below.
And Dr. Goebbels, Mr. Himmler, and Dr. Ley were all seated on the
platform; and they were yelling for about one-half an hour, and
they could not keep still. And they were told to be quiet, and after
that, after about half an hour, some of the S. S. men came.
Mr. Whitley. What do you mean by S. S. men ?
Miss Vooros. Some of the men in uniform around the fuehrer.
Mr. Whitley. You mean bodyguards?
Miss Vooros. Bodyguards, and one of the officers came up to the
bodyguards, ran up to him, and said something to him, and he
saluted us.
Mr. Whitley. Hugo Haas was in charge of your group?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And he told one of the bodyguards to notify the
f euhrer that the Amerigan group was there, and he then saluted your
group ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was Dinkelacker with you at the time ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; he was.
Mr. Whitley. Dinkelacker and Hugo Haas, in charge of the group ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was any other person particularly in charge of your
group at that time?
Miss Vooros. No.
3930 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Just Hugo Haas ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; we had received invitations.
Mr. Whitley. You had received individual invitations?
Miss Vooros. Individual invitations; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know who the invitations were sent by?
Miss Vooros. By the propaganda office.
Mr. Whitley. The propaganda office ?
Miss Vooros. Dr. Goebbels' office.
Mr. Whitley. And every member of the American group also re-
ceived invitations to be present?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. To see the fuehrer on that occasion?
Miss Vooros. Yes; and when he gave the salute, why we saluted
back ; and Goebbels looked down and smiled ; and it so happened that
it was meant for me ; I looked different from the other group, and lie
looked at me, because I did not have blond hair like the other Ger-
mans, I guess, and Dr. Goebbels was staring at me; and I looked
around to see if he were looking at me, but he was looking at me, and
be smiled in that direction, and it was for me.
Mr. Whitley. Did you smile back at him ?
Miss Vooros. Oh, yes; and as I think now, I realize it was better
for me not to be out with him.
Mr. Whitley. Continue on, will you, with the account of the meet-
ing.
Miss Vooros. When we got another invitation-
Mr. Whitley. How long did this meeting last ?
Miss Vooros. Oh, it lasted about 2 hours.
Mr. Whitley. Wlio spoke?
Miss Vooros. Hitler spoke and said that he was interested — he was
interested in the youth movement — and that we were all there now
and were to work with him.
Mr. Whitley. And he was particularly interested in the fact — in
making his speech, in referring to the American youth group?
Miss Vooros. He made a speech; said that he was the fuehrer of
eveiy German everywhere ; whether he was at the South Pole or the
North Pole, they personally felt that Adolph Hitler was their head.
Mr. Whitley. Did he make any reference to citizenship in this
country ?
Miss Vooros. No; he didn't.
Mr. Whitley. He did not make any distinction between Germans,
no matter what country, where they lived or where their citizenship
might be?
Miss Vooros. No; that they all knew that Adolph Hitler was their
fuehrer.
Mr. Whitley. The}' were all Germans, and he was the leader.
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Incidentally, Miss Vooros, you speak and under-
stand German perfectly?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. So in his speech, in German, you had no trouble
following it whatsoever?
Miss Vooros. None at all.
Mr. Whitley. Continue on.
Here
Mr.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 393I
Miss Vooros. Well, wo loft the stadium about 11 o'clock and had
another invitation to Dr. Goobbels personally to go to the Lust Gar-
dens in Berlin; and the fuehrer, Adolph Hitler, spoke
I Mr. YViim f.y. This was the first meeting of the youth group?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whttley. Representing all the Youth Movement?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mi-. Whitley. Was it just German or from all countries?
Miss Yooros. From all over the world; they had come there from
[Rumania.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, there were groups sent from other
countries; not only your group, which were to receive training at
this time in Germany; there were other groups from other countries?
Miss Yooros. From Rumania, in the camp, the place where I said
we were to go.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, they were brought from other coun-
tries to Germany to receive training.
Miss Yooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. All right ; do you recall some of the things he said ?
Miss Yooros. Well, he referred to the American group being there,
and said that they should appreciate what was being done; that was
during his speech, and Lena Reiferstapher was photographing him.
Mr. Whitley. Who was she?
Miss Vooros. She was taking pictures while he was speaking; she
had come with a camera.
Mr. Whitley. Was she on the platform?
Miss Vooros. She was on the platform.
Mr. Whitley. She was on the platform with him?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. She is the one whose name you frequently see
mentioned?
Miss Yooros. Yes; that is right, and we saw Goering for the
first time. And, of course, this lasted for 3 or 4 hours, and we had
marched out during the day and we had on these uniforms, which
were different from some of the Germans, and they gathered around ;
it was a big affair.
Then we were to have dinner there. There was a place reserved
for us, for the German-American group.
Mr. Whitley. You had special reserved positions?
Miss Vooros. Yes; and we had a big menu like that [indicating],
about this big. And, we were nearly starved ; we did not have any-
thing to eat since morning and I thought I was going to have a real
meal and all they had was sauerkrout and pigs knuckles.
The Chairman. Let us ^et down to the essentials, Mr. Whitley.
Mr. Whitley. Where did you go after that time?
Miss Yooros. There was a social that evening and we were gathered
there in the evening, and were asked to give some songs. And I
wanted to sing a song — I suggested we sing Home on the Range; I
thought that was a good one and they asked us to sing a German
song, which wo didn't know, and they just made fun of it; said that
was what was going on in America.
Mr. Whitley. That was what was carried on over here?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
3932 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. And when you left then you were to go to camp?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You left that night?
Miss Vooros. That night.
Mr. Whitley. How did you go to camp ?
Miss Vooros. By bus.
Mr. Whitley. Where was the camp located?
Miss Vooros. Near Berlin, at Hubertros H. Storkon.
Mr. Whitley. You were quartered in what kind of an arrange-
ment ?
Miss Vooros. This was a villa.
Mr. Whitley. Approximately how many trainees were there in
camp ?
Miss Vooros. How many youths?
Mr. Whitley. Members of the Youth Movement, altogether?
Miss Vooros. Well, you see, there were some from Rumania, about
4 boys from Rumania and our 30.
Mr. Whitley. The American group of 30?
Miss Vooros. The American group of 30 ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. And who was in charge of the trainees at that
time?
Miss Vooros. Hugo Haas.
Mr. Whitley. Hugo Haas?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And was Dinkelacker?
Miss Vooros. No, he wasn't ; he left 2 weeks before the group.
Mr. Whitley. Now, will you describe for the committee the nature
of the training you received and any particular lectures that you had,
the type of lectures you received?
Miss Vooros. Well, at first, when we first came to camp, the day we
got there, we were to have a speech, and in that speech we were to
have a report. The speech consisted of the fact, one of the first facts,
that America wasn't a German-speaking country ; they regretted that it
spoke English, and of the fact that Germans when they were living
in other countries — it often happened that they did not continue to
speak German; that they were not like the English; that where the
English went they still remained English. And that was why England
was able to build up its colonies.
Mr. Whitley. That was why England built up colonies?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; because Englishmen always stuck by their home
and Germans didn't.
Mr. Whitley. I see.
Mr. Starnes. Who delivered that speech ?
Miss Vooros. Aaxman.
Mr. Starnes. Who was he?
Miss Vooros. From the propaganda department.
Mr. Starnes. This was at the camp ?
Miss Vooros. He came to the camp later.
Mr. Starnes. Was he a member of the bund ?
Miss Vooros. He was formerly a unit leader in Ridgewood.
Mr. Starnes. Does he live in Germany?
Miss Vooros. He does.
Mr. Starnes. Is he a German citizen ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3933
Miss Vooros. He always was.
Mr. Starnes. Always was?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Staknes. And he was formerly a leader of the bund movement
in Ridge wood?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. This particular speech was delivered by whom?
Miss Vooros. Aaxman.
Mr. Whitley. And he said one of the reasons why the English had
built up their colonies was because English always were English?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And Germans had not always done that; and for
that reason they didn't have a colonial empire ?
Miss Vooros. Yes; or they would have been just as big.
Mr. Whitley. And that was what he was trying to impress upon
you — that the members of the youth movement in the bund should
remain German ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whiti :ey. Will you continue ? Did you have to take an exam-
ination later?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; the same day we had to take an examination. In
that examination the boys and girls who stood the highest would go
to Stuttgart for further training from very important leaders from
the youth movement.
Mr. Whitley. From the group who stood the highest ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Let me clear that up for the committee, Miss Vooros.
The original 15 boys and 15 girls who were selected to go from this
country were selected because they were leaders, outstanding leaders
in this country.
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And after you got to the camp, outside of Berlin,
for the training there, they were to select a few of that group ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And how many were they going to select from each
group ?
Miss Vooros. I don't know ; there were four girls, four or five girls,
as I recall.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, they were going to select a small
group from that number ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. From the 30, who had a chance to go to Stuttgart
for further training?
Miss Vooros. For further training.
Mr. Whitley. To take special training?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. All right ; continue on with the nature of the instruc-
tions you were to receive at the camp.
Miss Vooros. Well, the reports were made that the girls who were
selected, after the 6 weeks, would leave for Stuttgart.
Mr. Whitley. And who was selected for that?
Miss Vooros. I have the list; I have the list there. I do not know
that I can name them all.
3934 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. They were all American representatives, of tho
American group ?
Miss Vooros. Yes; they were.
Mr. Whitley. Suppose you give the names of those you can recall.
Miss Vooros. Else Edrian, Florence Seidler, Gisela Britz, Esther
Maass.
I can't recall the others now.
Mr. Whitley. There were three or four ?
Miss Vooros. There were four or five girls.
Mr. Whitley. You don't recall just now who the others are?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. Could you take their names, and give the entire list?
The Chairman. Suppose you give the reporter the list, and just
let it go in the record.
Mr. Starnes. I think the members of the group should be in the
record.
The Chairman. They are included in that list?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
The Chairman. Have you seen that list?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; I have.
The Chairman. Is it a correct list?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. Just hand it to the reporter and let the names be
copied in the record.
(The list of names referred to follow :)
Else Adrian, Sophie Warming, Gisela Britz, Florence Seider, Esther Mass,
Wilma Kammel, Ruth Midler, Elly Gunkel, Margaret Scheek, Vera Voge, Hed-
wig Klapproth, Mrs. Schmidt, Helen Vooros, Fred Schlosser, Hogo Steimle, Paul
Ochojsky, Herbert Mai, Edward Reichel, Willy Hahn, K. A. Kusche, Royal
Schlote, Harold Werle, Willy Heineman, Walter Voge, Bodo Schmidt, William
Sellin, Franz Nicolay.
Mr. Whitley. Miss Vooros, were you one of the group who was
selected for further training?
Miss Vooros. I was, but I had an accident that evening; I injured
my foot and I told them that I did not want to go; I didn't want
to go.
Mr. Whitley. You had hurt your foot and did not want to go ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; I had had an accident.
Mr. Whitley. And you gave that as a good reason for not going.
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And so you were dropped from the list of names
that were to go to Stuttgart for further training?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. AVhitley. All right. Now will you tell us something further
about the lectures and training and instructions you received during
the 6 weeks that you were at the camp?
Miss Vooros. It pertained mostly to national socialism and was
antiracial and anti-Mason.
The Chairman. Didn't they ridicule generally the Christian reli-
gion ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, they did.
Mr. Starnes. What do you mean by antiracial?
Miss Vooros. Well, they upheld the race, the German race.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3935
Mr. Staknes. Did they have anything particularly to say about
other races \
Miss Vooros. Yes, they did.
Mr. Starnes. What other race, and what did they say?
Miss Vooros. About the Jews, first. They said we should consider
the Jews just as we considered the colored race; that the Jews had
the same blood; wasn't like ourselves.
Mr. Starnes. Did they say how you should consider them, in what
way you should consider them?
Miss Vooros. Yes; that we should have nothing to do with them,
and even if they were leaders in our country we should always re-
member that they were trying to ruin our race; that they would ruin
the girls who were of the Aryan race; and that we were Germans.
And they were especially against, anti-Mason.
Mr. Starnes. What did they have to say about Masons?
Miss Vooros. Well, that they were organized to try to ruin every-
thing; that they were to ruin girls, and they showed us pictures
where they had tombs, where they showed us caskets and what had
happened to someone who had been false to the initiation in Masonry,
that their tongues had been cut out, or something like that, and that
we should have nothing to do with Masons.
Mr. Starnes. What else did they teach you ?
Miss Vooros. Antireligion.
Mr. Starnes. What did they say about religion ?
• Miss Vooros. They said that religion, that national socialism — we
would have no religion other than national socialism, because the
national socialism would be the real church.
Mr. Starnes. What if anything did they say about politics, party
politics ?
Miss Vooros. Well politics — democracy, they didn't think very much
of democracy in this country. They said that national socialism was
going to spread to other countries, and Germany was going to go for-
ward ; that she would take Austria ; and, she has already gotten Austria.
And she would get Czechoslovakia ; and she has taken Czechoslovakia.
After Czechoslovakia, Danzig and the Polish Corridor; after that the
African colonies; after they had gotten the African colonies there
would be Schleswig-Holstein, the upper part of Germany and part of
Denmark. Then the Scandinavian States, because it was up there that
the German culture originated; and after that time Germany would
look toward America, and that would be any time in 15 or 20 years,
and they are leaving it up to us. It was the German-American Bund
that was to cover enough territory, open up camps, buy property, each
individual, so that we can say, "The majority here is German, and
we want to belong to Germany."
Mr. Starnes. They taught you German boys and girls that idea?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Did they say anything about establishing colonies in
America ?
Miss Vooros. We should do that. We should form groups, like in
our camps. First of all, we should get bungalows, then a German man
should open a store, little by little, and then the people should buy
property around it. They are doing everything that has been said
in Germany. They are buying property around camps. They are
3936 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
trying to establish a German village, so that the Germans can exist
unto themselves.
Mr. Starnes. Do they say that you should trade with Germans ?
Miss Vooros. Trade only with Germans.
Mr. Starnes. Trade only with Germans ?
Miss Vooros. Yes. '
Mr. Starnes. And wherever it is possible to buy German-made
products, that you should buy those products ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. But they did stress to you American boys and girls
who were over there that you should trade with Germany ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Did they say anything about any organization being
set up in America to promote that economic purpose?
Miss Vooros. It was the bund.
Mr. Starnes. The bund ?
Miss Vooros. Yes. They call it the D. K. V.
Mr. Starnes. Did they say anything about who was to lead that
movement in the United States?
Miss Vooros. They spoke of the bund in general.
Mr. Starnes. By the way, before you got off this boat, did Mr.
Dinkelacker say anything about Fritz Kuhn being recognized as the
leader of the bund in this country ?
Miss Vooros. We were told that Fritz Kuhn is recognized in Ger-
many as our fuehrer. He is our fuehrer.
Mr. Starnes. Who told you that ?
Miss Vooros. Dr. Froman.
Mr. Starnes. Who is he ?
Miss Vooros. He is a Nazi official from the propaganda ministry in
Berlin.
Mr. Starnes. Did he say that you should recognize Kuhn as a rep-
resentative of the Nazi government or the Nazi ideology in this country ?
Miss Vooros. Yes; they did.
Mr. Starnes. And the leader of that movement in this country?
Miss Vooros. He is our leader.
The Chairman. And the representative of Hitler?
Miss Vooros. Yes. They spoke of him as if they were acquainted,
and everything that is being said about him here, they don't pay any
attention to that.
Mr. Starnes. Did they tell you he should be recognized as the
American fuehrer?
Miss Vooros. He is recognized in Germany as the American fuehrer,
and we are supposed to recognize him.
Mr. Starnes. Did any other officials connected with the Nazi party
or government make any statement to that effect, other than those that
you have mentioned?
Miss Vooros. Hugo Haas did also.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know why Kuhn was in Berlin at that time,
or how long he was in Germany?
Miss Vooros. Kuhn had left'Berlin, because previous to the time we
left there there had been some discussion about noncitizens being mem-
bers of the bund.
Mr. Starnes. What was the discussion; do you know?
t
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3937
Miss Vooros. It was said that any German citizen is not allowed
to be a member of the bund. There are still quite a few German
citizens in the bund, and the bund would have a tremendous loss if
they had to drop out. So Mr. Martin made a speech to us once,
saying that Mr. Kuhn was going to take care of that matter and it
was all in his hands.
Mr. Starnes. Who is Mr. Martin ?
Miss Vooros. Mr. Rudolph Martin, of New York.
Mr. Starnes. Is he the district leader for the eastern part of the
United States?
Miss Vooros. He is the district leader for the eastern division;
that is right.
The Chairman. If you are through for the present, Mr. Starnes, I
want to clear up a few things.
You met a good many people who were in the bund while you
were in the Youth Movement, did you not ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. What class of people generally belong to the bund?
Are they the poorer class ?
Miss Vooros. The working class. You see, some of the people are
in the bund, I think, just because — most of them who are in the bund
have delicatessens, and through belonging to the bund they have more
customers.
The Chairman. Generally speaking, you would say that it is the
working class that belong to the bund ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is the same class, I believe you said, that
really form the strongest supporters of Hitler in Germany ?
Miss Vooros. That is correct.
The Chairman. While you were in the Youth Movement did you
ever hear Dinkelacker or any of the leaders of it speak about coopera-
tion between the bund and other organizations ?
Miss Vooros. No. You see — well, there is another speech that I
wanted to bring out. They said they never spoke against communism
in Germany; and one of the men, Dr. Achsman, gave us this one: He
said they never spread any hate about Stalin or communism in Russia,
because they said national socialism is the higher ideals of com-
munism, and that communism — with his clenched fist— that fist was
generally open to the Nazi salute.
The Chairman. So that they are about one and the same thing?
Miss Vooros. One and the same thing; yes.
The Chairman. It would be pleasing to the Communists to learn
that.
Mr. Whitley. That was the instruction you got from the propa-
ganda institute in Germany?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. But I mean here in the United States, did you
ever hear of Kunze, or any of them, cooperating with other groups —
Ukranians, Italians, William Dudley Pelley, or any of the other
groups in the United States ?
Miss Vooros. The Italians are with us. Whenever we have our
German day at Madison Square Garden, the Italians are all with us.
Mr. Whitley. What groups of the Italians?
3938 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss Vooros. The Fascists. And I heard them mention something
about — the post leaders were gathered once, and the Ku Klux Klan
was mentioned, and they said that it was a little too radical for the
bund.
Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairman, I would like to return to that instruc-
tion.
You were talking about the instruction you were getting at this
German camp for 6' weeks, and the type of instruction there. About
when did you get disgusted with that kind of instruction?
Miss Vooros. Don't you see, I went with that intention to Ger-
many— of not returning any more. I thought I woidd take advan-
tage of the trip.
Mr. Mason. You went to take advantage of the trip to Germany,
but you did not. intend, after you came back, to carry out this
propaganda or to be a part of it any more?
Miss Vooros. I had no intentions of doing that,
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, I think at this time it would be
well to get Miss Vooros to identify some of this material.
The Chairman. All rigth. Right there, there is a point that I
think is at least important in my viewpoint, You said awhile ago
that most of the members of the bund are from the working class?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Are the people to some extent unemployed or in
distress ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; some of them are on relief.
The Chairman. They are the poorer class of German who are on
relief or in distress?
Miss Vooros. Yes. In our group in south Brooklyn there are
people whom I have supplied with food, and I had to pay the car-
fare for some of the girls to come to the meeting.
The Chairman. How do the leaders appeal to that class? What
do they tell them as to the advantage of joining the bund?
Miss Vooros. Well, if they join the bund, they have high hopes of
the bund one day becoming something in this country : that the leaders
of the bund wili be our future leaders, and they are giving them such
high hopes, that if we come to live to the day, everything will be a
day of plenty ; they will have jobs.
The Chairman. They will have security?
Miss Vooros. They will have security.
The Chairman. And social justice?
Miss Vooros. And social justice.
The Chairman. So that really they are appealing to those people
by promising them something?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And that causes them to join the bund in the
hopes thit they will get something that they clo not now have?
Miss Vooros. That is right.
The Chairman. And do they tell them that the Jews are responsible
for all their miseries?
M^ss Vooros. Oh, ves; that the Jews are responsible for everything.
The Chairman. That the Jews are responsible for all the hard
times and that they ought to drive the Jews out, and then they
TviH have a paradise in America?
Miss Vooros. Yes; that is the substance.
ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3939
Mr. Whitley. That is the substance of their teaching?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Did they teach you that this same doctrine would
apply to Germans in other nations?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And that they had a Youth Movement in other na-
tions where Germans live?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. For instance, in Rumania all they hope
for is to get King Carol on the throne.
Mr. Starnes. Do they talk about a Youth Movement for German
children in any other part of America than the United States; for
instance, in South America?
Miss Vooros. No. I forgot; Hugo Haas was leaving for Canada
shortly after I had gone— I don't know whether he is there yet or
not — to form an organization in Canada.
Mr. Starnes. Did they say anything about starting an organiza-
tion in South America?
Miss Vooros. No ; they did not.
Mr. AYhitley. Miss Vooros, I will show you, for identification, a
book which is captioned in German — I cannot read it. It bears the
signature of Theo. Dinkelacker. Will you give us the title of that
book and what the inscription written in there by Mr. Dinkelacker
says ?
Miss Vooros. It is the German Workers' Party. This was given
me in 1938, before I left for Germany, because I started with 13 girls
and left with 50 girls.
Mr. Whitley. You had built up your party to 50 ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And what does the inscription say ?
Miss Vooros. It was given me on the Youth day, and was given
me for the best organizing.
Mr. Whitley. And it is signed by Theo. Dinkelacker?
Miss Vooros. It is signed by Theo. Dinkelacker, the Youth leader.
Mr. Whitley. That is his own handwriting?
Miss Vooros. That is his own handwriting. '
Mr. Whitley. And what is the nature, very generally and briefly,
of the material in the book? Is it one of the books that you studied?
Miss Vooros. Yes; it is one that we studied. Here is Hitler's
picture in the front.
The Chairman. Whose picture?
Miss Vooros. Hitler's picture.
Before a boy can get a position in Germany he must work for the
State 3 months to 1 year.
Mr. Whitley. That is the procedure under the Socialist govern-
ment ?
Miss Vooros. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. I show you another book captioned in German. Will
you tell us what the title of that book is?
Miss Vooros. This is Germany Through Night and Day. After
our 3 weeks were over, Hugo Haas gave me this. Each one got this
who did exceptionally good work. It says here, to continue what I
have been doing; here — uTo my comrade, Helen Vooros."
Mr. Whitley. Is that one of the books that you studied over there?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
3940 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. What is the nature of the material in that book?
Miss Vooros. How Hitler came into power.
Mr. Whitley. There is nothing about the American Revolution or
George Washington ?
Miss Vooros. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Here is another book. Will you identify this, Miss
Vooros? [Handing book to the witness.]
Miss Vooros. This was given me by a Nazi official — The Life of
Adolf Hitler.
Mr. Whitley. Can you identify that official?
Miss Vooros. I would rather not. It has pictures of Adolf Hitler
and his life.
Mr. Whitley. The entire book is devoted to his life?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was that a book that you in the youth movement
studied ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; we were given those to study.
Mr. Whitley. Here are some pamphlets. Will you tell us what
they are and where they came from and how you got them ?
Miss Vooros. This [indicating] is the constitution of the bund. Each
youth leader has to know this, but I must say I never got around to it.
Mr. Whitley. You did not study it?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. What are the others ?
Miss Vooros. This [indicating] is one of the pamphlets that were
given to us.
Mr. Whitley. Where was that given to you ; in this country ?
Miss Vooros. No ; in Germany.
Mr. Whitley. What is the nature of the material in that pamphlet %
Miss Vooros. About the Jews.
Mr. Whitley. It is anti- Jewish?
Miss Vooros. That they were the cause of wars; whenever there is
a war they usually organize and finance it.
Mr. Whitley. It is strictly anti- Jewish material ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And it was given to the American youth group over
there?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What are the others ?
Miss Vooros. This [indicating] is about Catholicism.
Mr. Whitley. Is it critical of Catholicism?
Miss Vooros. Very critical; about the Pope
Mr. Whitley. Was it given to you in Germany ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; it was given to me in Germany.
Mr. Whitley. Are you supposed to study it and read it ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That was a part of your work over there?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
There was another pamphlet we had on sterilization. That was one
of our lectures we had.
Mr. Whitley. Did you receive instruction on that?
Miss Vooros. That was one of the important things we had to know,
and that was how they were sterilizing the children of the German
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3941
girl who had married a Jew; that they would bo compelled to be
sterilized.
Mr. Whitley. Do they do that in Germany?
Miss Vooros. They do that in Germany now.
Mr. "Whitley. And they gave this group of American boys and
girls from 17 to 18
Miss Vooros (interposing). No; we were a little older.
Mr. Whitley. That is right; you were older, but they gave them
detailed instruction in sterilization technique?
Miss Vooros. Yes. They showed us how the woman and man, or the
boy or girl, should be sterilized.
Mr. Whitley. They gave you detailed instruction?
Miss Vooros. Yes. This doctor drew an outline of the human
body, of the girl and boy, and showed us what they would do to cause
sterilization.
Mr. Starnes. That lecture was given by a German doctor?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. While you were in the camp there?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And the idea behind that was that it was knowledge
that you might need sometime ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. If conditions in this country were what they are in
Germany, that would be the attitude toward sterilization ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Was there any further instruction that you received
other than as outlined by you in your training ?
Miss Vooros. Not that I can think of.
Mr. Whitley. I believe you mentioned a moment ago, Miss Vooros,
that in Germany they looked upon the D. K. V. in this country as
the official representative in this country of the German Government.
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That is the German-American Business League, is
it not — a subsidiary of the bund ?
Miss Vooros. No; it is something different. The bund has a
D. K. V., but I do not think that it has any relationship with the
business league — the D. A. V.
Mr. Whitley. Just to make that clear, what group in the United
States, particularly and directly, do they consider in Germany to be
the official German group in this country?
Miss Vooros. I think the D. A. V.
Mr. Whitley. That is the bund?
Miss Vooros. No ; that is not the bund. It is an organ of the bund.
That is the official; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Well, that is the bund in this country?
Miss Vooros. Yes; that is the bund.
Mr. Whitley. And, of course, its affiliated organizations?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, we have had considerable testimony
here today with reference to various German propaganda agencies,
and in order to clarify the set-up of the Nazi propaganda system,
will it be proper at this time to introduce some charts to illustrate
the set-up of the system?
94931— 39— vol. 6 16
3942 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. If we have a witness here for that purpose.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Metcalfe, who is a former member of the bund,
and who has studied that matter for several years, can easily explain
what those charts relate to and what that propaganda is.
Mr. Mason. And its work here in this country?
Mr. Whitley. Its start in Germany and its relation to this country.
The Chairman. Before you get into that. Miss Vooros, did you
carry any publications like the bund yearbook with you?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
The Chatrmax. Did you give any of them to Mr. Vandenberg?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you take with you any copies of editions of
newspapers published by the bund in this country?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. What did you do with them?
Miss Vooros. I distributed them among the people.
The Chairman. Who gave you those instructions?
Miss Vooros. Mr. Vandenberg. He asked me to take them over
there to show what we were accomplishing over here.
Mr. Starxes. Did you take a 1937 yearbook with you?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. I understand that at this point you just want to
introduce the charts and identify them by another witness and then
resume with this witness?
Mr. Whitley. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN C. METCALFE
(The witness was duly sworn bv the chairman.)
Mr. Whitley. I think we could introduce Miss Vooros' testimony
better if we could refer to these charts.
The Chairman. Can a small chart go into the record ?
Mr. Whitley. Yes, sir.
(The charts referred to, to be reproduced in appendix.)
Mr. Metcalfe. I don't know whether you can see the reading over
here.
The Chairman. You can read it out yourself.
Mr. Metcalfe. This chart [indicating] shows the connection be-
tween the Nazi ministry of propaganda and enlightment and the
German-American Bund, through its various subsidiaries and affili-
ated official agencies, and methods that are employed in reaching the
German-American Bund and down through the various types of per-
sons who are in the bund. For instance, it was pointed out by coun-
sel for the committee yesterday that according to the instructions of
the Third Reich, all agencies engaged in any form of propaganda in
Germany are automatically subsidiaries of the German Government.
So we have some of the major subsidiaries listed under the direction
of Dr. Joseph Goebbels, minister of propaganda and enlightenment
in Berlin. This first part here [indicating] is the ministry of propa-
ganda and enlightenment, and leading into that the subsidiaries.
Here is the V. T. A. That is the league for Germans in foreign
lands, located in Berlin. That is the same agency that Miss Vooros
has been testifying about as being one of the agencies which have
cooperated in making it possible to send American boys and girls who
:
:
!
CN-AMBRIGAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3943
are members of the Gterman-American Bund Youth Movement from
Ifche United States to Germany, and which have partially financed
that venture. It is also the same agency that was referred to in the
testimony by Fritz Kuhn yesterday.
Another agency is the Fichte Blind, or the "Fight League." That
is located at Erfurt, Germany. It is largely engaged in the dissemi-
nation of national Socialist propaganda and antiracial and anti-
religious propaganda. Stacks of that material have been picked up in
bund camps anil in bund posts all over the United States. I say that
from direct evidence. I personally picked up that material; 1 have
purchased it. and we introduced in evidence large quantities of ma-
terial from this agency, the Fichte Bund, that had been sent to Amer-
ican citizens, and frequently to persons who never even asked for the
material, who did not know how they got it, who don't want it, but
nevertheless have received the material.
Then there is the World Service Agency, which is very similar to
the Fichte Bund, and which is located at Hamburg.
These two agencies — the Fichte Bund is a newer agency, and the
World Service is an older one — specialize in distribution of material
all over the world and, of course, great quantities to the United States.
Then we have the Foreign Institute known as the — before I men-
tion the Foreign Institute, the German word for "World Service" is
"Welt Dienst." The Foreign Institute is the Ausland Institute at
Stuttgart. Germany, which was referred to particularly yesterday in
the presentation of various letters* by the chairman, confronting Fritz
Kuhn with certain testimony in which he recognized several signa-
tures and admitted that the letters were genuine. That was corre-
spondence, in that particular case, between the Chicago bund post and
this particular agency.
This institute specializes in educational material and enlightenment
propaganda and also in furnishing to the German-American posts
ribbons, calendars, and things of that kind for their prizes for their
various affairs and lotteries and things that they have.
Then there is left open here another section, a subsidiary, covering
all other propaganda agencies. There are a great, many minor ones.
Included, however, in this is, of course, such an agency as Julius
Streicher's anti-Jewish publication, which finds its way into the
German-American Bund ranks particularly, and is there distributed,
being sold at the camps and at bund meetings.
Under the next line in this chart are various official agencies with
contacts in Germany and here, namely, the steamship lines — the North
German Lloyd and Hamburg American Lines, which were referred to
by Miss Vooros as one of the agencies which have assisted in making
possible this particular tour of the 30 young people to Germany.
Then there are various Nazi official agencies. Evidence has been
placed at your disposal as to certain Nazi agents who are operating
within the German-American Bund ranks, who have been here as lec-
turers and in other guises; and that is the bracket covering that par-
ticular phase of activity.
Then there is the German Embassy. For instance, Dr. Hans Dieck-
hoff has been speaking before the German-American Bund, for in-
stance the Buffalo post, where we have direct evidence of it; and as
Mr. Kuhn testified yesterday, he has also spoken at other places.
Then there is the Consular Service. We have a great deal of evi-
dence of cooperation given to the German-American Bund and its
3944 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
affiliates. That is, we have many photographs, letters and so on—
photographs actually showing the various chancelleries, consulates,
and so forth, and their members attending the affairs and addressing
these various posts.
Then there is the German Tourist Railway Information Service,
which again is another agency referred to by Miss Vooros as one of
the agencies which assisted in making possible the financing of that
trip of the youth of the German-American Bund ; this agency furnish-
ing the railroad passes, large books of passes, so that without cost
they could travel all over Germany on these tours. This agency has
also been found to be active in furnishing trips for lecturers who
come over here and go back over there, for the purpose of gathering
material for lectures in the United States.
This next line [indicating] shows the methods that are employed.
All of these agencies are furnishing speakers. We have plenty of evi-
dence in the files with respect to that.
Then we have the radio activities. The bund, for instance, has set
up radio programs in the United States, and then there are the short-
wave-radio programs; and we have particular evidence pertinent to
this case in connection with the short-wave programs. While Mr.
Kuhn yesterday, for instance, denied that there was any attempt to
influence the bund members in listening to German-propaganda broad-
casts, it is a fact nevertheless that we have picked up any number of
printed programs of particular broadcasts of propaganda from Ger-
man stations.
The Chairman. That was all introduced last year, was it not?
That is part of the record ?
Mr. Metcalfe. That is correct. We have that here.
Then this line [indicating] is, of course, all types of publications
and printed matter, and the dissemination of it ; motion-picture films
imported from Germany being shown at the various bund meetings
and their other organizations.
Then there are the schools that are set up for enlightenment and
propaganda purposes, set up by all these above agencies, particularly
the V. T. A., which has been active in that respect — and all this ma-
terial feeding into the ranks of the German-American Bund, which
has been shown conclusively, I think, to be made up of aliens,
naturalized Americans, and native Americans.
The Chairman. That is chart No. 1. Is there another chart there?
Mr. Metcalfe. Yes, sir. Then we have the set-up from there on.
This [indicating] is the chart of the activities in the United States.
There we have the German-American Bund broken into three divi-
sions— the East, the Middle West, and the far West; and under that
is the storm-troop division and the others ; then the posts of the Ger-
man-American Bund, and the stamps and the coinage that they are
now seeking to develop.
Then we have over here [indicating] the official agencies cooperating
with the German-American Bund — the Embassy, the Consular Serv-
ice, Nazi agents, Railway Tourist Information Bureau, and the steam-
ship lines, and on the other side the subsidiary organizations of the
bund, the affiliated groups of active sympathizers referred to by Mr.
Kuhn yesterday.
The Chairman. That is, the sympathizers who have joined?
UN-AMERICAJN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3945
Mr. Metcalfe. The sympathizers who have joined, and who have
made a contribution of $1 for membership.
The Chairman. By the way, when we were investigating it last
year there was no such thing as a sympathizers' group, officially?
Mr. Metcalfe. No; it has been developed since that time; except
that we did develop and have established that the German-American
Bund is spreading beyond its natural groups and is going into other
groups.
Then, aside from the active sympathizer, we have the passive sym-
pathizers, those who do not take any active part and would not take
out a membership, and yet are sympathetic and would go to these
a If airs.
Mr. Mason. Let me ask you a question or two on one point : Your
first chart showed the sources of propaganda, and so forth, from
Germany ?
Mr. Metcalfe. That is correct.
Mr. Mason. Your second chart shows how the bund, through all
these other organizations, translates that, or gets it over, to the
American public ; is that the idea ?
Mr. Metcalfe. One chart complements the other, in other words.
Mr. Mason. All right ; I wanted to get that clear in my mind.
Mr. Metcalf. Then, again, here we have the Nazi Ministry of
Propaganda, not feeding directly into the German-American Bund,
but into all the affiliated and subsidiary groups and the cooperating
organizations.
Mr. Mason. Directly ?
Mr. Metcalfe. That is correct. Here [indicating] it is simply with
the German-American Bund, and now we show these same agencies
spreading their material, not alone to the German-American Bund,
but also to its subsidiary groups and the affiliated organizations, the
cooperating organizations, and from there on all of them going into
the active Nazi sympathizers classifications, into the passive sympa-
thizers, and from there, of course, into all the potential groups that
they think might become active in these movements.
Then we have in the final chart [indicating] the Nazi Ministry of
Propaganda and its various subsidiaries combined, and the methods
that they employ in reaching all these groups — for instance, radio,
motion-picture films, and schools.
Then the bund subsidiary organizations or such organizations as
the D. K. V., the German Business League. Fritz Kuhn said yester-
day that it was a German-American business league, but the actual
translation of the German words is "German Business League."
Then there are the various schools that have been set up by the
bund throughout the country, and the various kuitur organizations
operating with the same membership, belonging to these two groups,
and the protective leagues in these groups, which all belong to the
German-American Bund .
Then we have the affiliated organizations. Mr. Kuhn said yesterday
that there was no connection between the German-American Bund
and the Silver Shirts. It is a fact, however, that there is a great over-
lapping of the respective organizations. For instance, in Chicago
a number of the storm troopers of the German-American Bund are also
Silver Shirts, and they meet jointly. I have sat in those meetings
with them.
3946 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Then in the German war veterans' groups there is the same over-
lapping of memberships. There are the tJkranian Nazi groups, the
"White Russian groups, of which there are several; the Hungarian
Nazi groups, and the Black Shirt organizations, and the German Bund,
which was referred to here yesterday — all of them were formerly
members of the bund but, because of the orders from Berlin, they
withdrew in Chicago and formed the German Bund, whereas for the
rest of the country Kuhn set up a prospective citizenry and kept them
in so as to retain the revenue and not lose it.
Now, we have the cooperative organizations — and Mr. Kuhn openly
admitted that yesterday — the Christian Front, the Christian Mobil-
izers, the American Patriots, the "War Veterans, the Knights of the
"White Camellia, the American: Fascists; and we have a list of about
a hundred different organizations in the same ranks where they go
to each other's meetings, they work together, they exchange speakers,
and so on.
Then in the active Nazi sympathizers are listed all the contributors —
the persons who have taken out membership as sympathizers and
contribute to it; who are willing to be seen giving the Nazi salute at
these affairs.
Then there are the passive Nazi sympathizers, who are simply the
antiracial, particularly anti -Jewish, and anti religious groups.
Now, all these organizations again have the same type of outlets
that are coming from the Nazi Ministry of Enlightenment and Prop-
aganda and its subsidiaries; that is, they also have speakers, radio
programs, publications, films, and schools; and it floods down into
the potential Nazi sympathizers and, of course, the American public
at large, always seeking to get more people into this general movement.
The Chairman. I think you have identified the charts very well;
don't you think so, Mr. "Whitley ?
Mr. "Whitley. Yes; I think so. Those charts will be reproduced
in the record.
The Chairman. All right; let us resume with the witness on the
stand.
TESTIMONY OF MISS HELEN VOOROS— Resumed
[he
Mr. Whitley. Miss Vooros, does your previous explanation pretty
well cover the substance of the instructions which you received at
this youth camp outside of Berlin ?
Miss Vooros. At that camp ; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Do any of the members of the youth group receive
any type of special instruction when they are sent over to Germany
on these training trips; any mechanical training of any kind, for
example ?
Miss Vooros. The students that are sent to Stuttgart for the 8 months
to study, they study national socialism and something else; and I
found out that Franz Nicolay, who was sent out in September 1937,
studied short-wave radio in Stuttgart.
The Chairman. Transmitting and receiving?
Miss Vooros. That is right.
The Chairman. That is Franz Nicolay?
Miss Vooros. Franz Nicolay; yes.
The Chairman. He took the 8 months' training at Stuttgart ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr.
Hr
>!>.
,;!,
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3947
The Chairman. And he was a member of the Youth Movement in
this count r v \
Miss Vooros. Yes; he was the son of Father Nicolay. He wrote a
letter to Mr. Vandenberg, and I saw the letter, in which he said he
was studying short-wave radio and said it was very useful and very
important.
The Chairman. Do you know any members of the German-Ameri-
can Bund Youth Movement in this country who have experimented
and communicated with Germany by radio?
Miss VoOROS. There were two boys at Harvard — Paul Ochojski
and Herbert Mai; two boys who were Harvard students.
The Chairman. They were a part of your group over there?
, Miss Yooros. Yes, sir; and they related an incident when they
had been in contact with Hugo Haas. They have a short-wave set.
The Chairman. They had been in contact with Hugo Haas in
Germany by short wave ?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Was that before or after their trip over there?
Miss Yooros. That was before; and one of the boys, Paul Ochojski,
staved a few weeks longer than the other, and he was working with
Hugo Haas on something pertaining to that. I saw him when I
went to Hugo Haas' office later. You see, I did not return with
the group of girls, I stayed a few weeks longer.
The Chairman. To sum up briefly the nature of the training
which 3Tour group of 30 received in this camp, it was very positively
and definitely pronational socialism?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
The Chairman. It was very definitely against, or critical, of every-
thing pertaining to America and American institutions?
Miss Vooros. Yes; they were quite interested in the two boys
that came from Harvard, because they could spread propaganda
much more easily than the others. They told some of the girls
that were still high-school students at that time that when they
returned they should work very hard at their work and become
teachers, because that was the best way of spreading propaganda.
The Chairman. To become teachers?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Those are two points that went throughout the
entire course of training. Now, the third point — all of the teach-
ing and training instruction was very definitely and positively anti-
Jewish ?
Miss Vooros. Anti-Jewish.
The Chairman. There was no question about that?
Miss Vooros. No.
The Chairman. That was the theme running through the whole
instruction ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; they told us that our President Roosevelt had a
streak of Jewish blood in him.
The Chairman. They told you that over there?
Miss Vooros. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That is the official lecturers?
Miss Vooros. That knew more about it.
Mr. Whitley. Then, in addition, you got certain types of special
training in your instruction in sterilization which you described?
hi
3948 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you got instruction with reference to religion?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. I believe you testified the tenor of the instruction
was that national socialism was a religion itself; in other words,
they did not encourage any comment on religion?
Miss Vooros. No, they didn't ; because national socialism, in itself,
is a religion.
Mr. Whitley. And they not only gave you pamphlets that were
anti-Jewish, but you referred to one here which you say is strictly
anti-Catholic ?
Miss Vocros. Anti- Catholic.
Mr. Whitley. And you said, I believe, earlier today, that one of
the lecturers advised the group that they did not criticize com-
munism ?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. Because communism and national socialism were
fundamentally the same?
Miss Vooros. It was.
Mr. Whitley. National socialism, from their interpretation, at
least, being just a little higher form of communism?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Whitley. Does that sum up substantially the tenor of the
teaching?
Miss Vooros. No ; there is another thing I forgot to mention. You
see, all this immorality that was existing in the bund, previous to my
trip to Germany
Mr. Whitley. That is in the camps in this country, you mean ?
Miss Vooros. Yes; that appalled me to know it was going on, and
there was a lecturer at the camp there who said this was pure and
noble, and they should not curb their instincts, and a girl should not
feel ashamed if she had an illegitimate child; because, in Germany,
they have what they call mutter-kind heim (mother and girl home)
where a girl could go with her child and they would receive a home
and shelter there. And they said, they gave us to know that we women,
we girls, when we grow up, that our duty was to have children ; that
we should produce ; that was all we were there for, and that the Ger-
man population in this country should grow.
Mr. Mason. I would like to inject one question there: The tenor bu
of this instruction, then, was that intercourse between pure German cause
people was all right; but if a German girl, for instance, had inter- iiou]
course with some other race, particularly the one, the Jewish, then diar-:
that was impure; that was vile? Mr.
Miss Vooros. That was vile. ■
Mr. Whitley. Now, as I understand your previous testimony, Miss )k.
Vooros, you stated although you were one of the group selected to go )lw
to Stuttgart for the 6 months' training outside of Berlin, after that
was completed you were asked to take the 8 months' training there?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. But, because you injured your ankle, you declined
that offer?
Miss Vooros. I did.
Mr. Whitley. Now, when did the training terminate in the camp
outside of Berlin ?
»r>
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3949
Miss Vooros. Well, it ended 6 weeks later. That was the second
Mr. Whitley. Approximately ?
Miss Vooros. In June, the middle week of June.
Mr. AVhitley. And, as I understand also your testimony, Mr. Dinke-
lacker had already left 2 weeks before the camp terminated?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; he had left.
«Mr. AVhitley. And this American group, when the camp broke up
and the training was completed, they came back to the United States?
Miss Vooros. No; they had five days, and those 5 days they stayed
in Berlin. They went to Horsst Wessel's grave and put a wreath of
flowers down there; they visited the National Youth leader of Ger-
man}7, of the girls' division — I don't know her name.
Mr. AVhitley. AA^hat was her name ?
Miss Vooros. I don't know.
Mr. AVhitley. But that was the National Youth leader of the girls*
division in Germany?
Miss Vooros. Yes; they were in Berlin. I did not take that trip.
I think they did various other things.
Mr. AArHiTLEY. What did you do? Did you come back with the
group ?
Miss Vooros. No ; I stayed with relatives.
Mr. AA^hitley. You stayed with relatives?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. AVhitley. For how long after the rest of the group left ?
Miss Vooros For 2 weeks.
Mr. AA7hitley. Then when did you sail from Germany ?
Miss Vooros. AVhile I was with my relatives Hugo Haas came to
me and brought me my mail, and one thing I noticed was that every
letter had been opened.
Mr. AA^hitley. AVas that true throughout the time you were in
camp ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; all our letters were opened.
Mr. AVhitley. All the mail had been opened ?
Miss Vooros. Yes; and it so happened my mother sent me articles
about Fritz Kuhn being brought before the court, with reference to
being in Germany, and they wanted to know whether he was in Ger-
(;,, many and why, and that Winterscheidt was arrested for indecency,
or something or other, and he brought this letter to me and wanted to
know what the idea was, why my mother sent those, and that I could
cause a lot of trouble. I said, "Well, what happened to the bund I
should be interested in it." He said that should be discarded imme-
diately, because all of the mail was opened.
Mr. Whitley. Those were clippings that were critical of Mr. Kuhn
or had reference to Mr. Winterscheidt ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. AVhitley. For impairing the morals of a minor — he did not
want that kind of material sent to Germany ?
Miss Vooros. No ; and every letter that went out of that camp had to
be O. K.'d by Hugo Haas.
Mr. Whitley. Did the American group give him their consent to
open their mail ?
Miss Vooros. No ; that is the law.
Mr. AVhitley. That is the law ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
3950 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. He was the official censor of your group?
Miss Vooros. That is right,
Mr. Whitley. And he censored every letter you sent out and every
letter you received ?
Miss Vooros. No ; we received our mail at some place where no one
else knew the location. Our mail was delivered to a post-office box in
Berlin, and someone would get it for us.
Mr. Whitley. And bring it out to the camp ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, concealing your activities, and the
purpose of the trip over there continued all the way through ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; it did.
Mr. Whitley. And you could not write letters back to relatives in
this country and tell them where you were and what you were doing?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. If you did, they would be censored?
Miss Vooros. They would be censored.
Mr. Whitley. And they would not let them go out?
Miss Vooros. They would not let them go out.
Mr. Whitley. Now to continue the narrative chronologically. You
visited other relatives after they left ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And Hugo Haas brought you your mail ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. At that time, did he make arrangements with you,
or discuss with you your own return to the United States ?
Miss Vooros. Yes; he told me I was to return on the steamship
Hansa.
Mr. Whitley. Is that the North German Lloyd boat?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; a German steamship line.
Mr. Whitley. On what boat were you to sail ?
Miss Vooros. That was June 24, 1938.
Mr. Whitley. That you were to sail?
Miss Vooros. Yes; that I was to sail. And at that time I did not
know that two other boys were sailing with me — two boys, William
Sellin and Heinz Ernst.
Mr. Whitley. Who were they?
Miss Vooros. Two Hitler youth leaders came over with me and
were sent to Camp Nordland to lead the camp there.
Mr. Whitley. To train
Miss Vooros. To lecture the bo}-s and girls there and train them.
Mr. Whitley. The youth group at Camp Nordland?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And they were the official representatives of the
German group ?
Miss Vooros. They were the official representatives of Germany.
Mr. Whitley. You know that because they came over on the boat
with you and talked with you and you talked with them?
Miss Vooros. I knew it from Hugo Haas also.
Mr. Whitley. He told you?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did he make arrangements for your passage back?
Miss Vooros. Yes; he told me where to go to get my ticket — to get
it at Hamburg; and on the voyage over I met these two boys, and they
rX-AMEKK AX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3951
both had passports, German passports, with thorn to go into and out
of Germany.
Mr. Whitley. Did he introduce yon to the two boys?
Miss VOOROS. I had met them previously at the camp.
Mr. Whitley. So that yon sailed on the steamship Hamaf
Miss VOOROS. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. With them on Jnne 24?
Miss Voros. Yes; that is right. And before I sailed we had to take
, Oi some tilings over with us.
Mr. Whitley. Who made the arrangement for you to take some
things over with you?
Miss Yooros. Hugo Haas.
Mr. Whitley. Jnst what did he give you to bring over, and what
were his instructions to you?
Miss Vooros. There were several books that had to be brought over
here, and they were divided among the three of us — German books; for
instance, Mein Kampf and Lives of the Political Nazi Leaders in Ger-
many and How to Conduct a Meeting in the Group
Mr. Whitley. How many of those books, approximately, were
there (
Miss Vooros. We each carried about 40 or 50 — each of us.
Mr. Whitley. Each 1 of the 3 were given 40 or 50 books?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. By Hugo Haas ?
Miss Vooros. Yes; by Hugo Haas.
Mr. Whitley. What did he tell you to do with those books?
Miss Vooros. We were to take them back with us, and I was given
uniforms, like what I have on — I was given six sets of those. ,
Mr. Whitley. Six sets of uniforms like that you have on ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; and I was to conceal them.
Mr. Whitley. Did he tell you how to conceal them ?
Miss Vooros. Yes; he told me I had a large trunk with me, and to
put the uniforms down underneath and to put the books on top, so
that there would not be any unnecessary questions by the inspector of
customs when I arrived. Then he said another package was to go to
Dinkelacker, the political leader, and one of those boys, William
Sellin, had taken a package and was to give it to the political leader,
™\ and after the boat docked, 2 or 3 days here, that Dinkelacker would
1 come and collect it.
Mr. Whitley. Hugo Haas told you that ?
"■ Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did you see that package?
Miss Vooros. Yes; I saw that.
Mr. Whitley. In Hugo Haas' office?
Miss Yooros. In Hamburg.
Mr. Whitley. He had it and gave it to one of those boys, and he was
to give it to
Miss Vooros. The political leader.
Mr. Whitley. On the boat, very much in the same manner that you
had given the package going over to the political leader, on instruc-
tions ?
Miss Yooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. So that you left June 24, and the 3 of you had 40
or 50 books apiece in your trunks?
3952 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you had these six girls' uniforms for the girls in
the youth movement?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Which Hugo Haas had instructed you to conceal in
the bottom of the trunk?
Miss Vooros. Yes. Each girl took a certain amount, and he told
me I was not getting away with anything.
Mr. Whitley. Did he tell you what to do if you were questioned
coming through customs, or did he take it for granted that you would
not be questioned ; did he offer any explanation or anything you could
give?
Miss Vooros. Not about the books we took. He said if we had to
write anything, or give any explanation, that we were supposed to use
the books for the purpose of our own library.
Mr. Whitley. Just for the purpose of your own library ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did anything of interest occur coming over on the
boat, on the trip over?
Miss Vooros. The political leader was given this package.
Mr. Whitley. Did you see that?
Miss Vooros. Yes; I saw that.
Mr. Whitley. Did you see the boy who had the package give it to
the leader?
Miss Vooros. Give it to the leader, yes ; because he was called down
to the cabin.
Mr. Whitley. Was that immediately after you sailed?
Miss Vooros. That was several days after we sailed.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know the identity of that political leader?
Miss Vooros. I can tell him when I see him again. I don't know
his name.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know his name?
Miss Voroos. No.
Mr. Whitley. Was he in uniform ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; parading around all day.
Mr. Whitley. Parading around the boat?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And he was one of those officials you described this
morning that were on each German boat, known as a political leader?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Who is the contact man between the German Gov-
ernment and the bund officials in this country?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And they go down to meet the boat when it docks,
to see him, and if there are any messages or packages, or mail, or
reports, he takes them back?
Miss Vooros. Yes; he does.
Mr. Whitley. That is from your own personal knowledge and from
talking with other members?
Miss Voroos. Yes.
The Chairman. Eight in that connection: Did you know of any
instances of photographs being taken down to the boat and given to
the leader?
Miss Vooros. Just like I took photographs and reports.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3953
1
The Chairman. I mean any photographs of anything else except
i lie camps — the bund camps?
Miss Vooros. I would not know.
The Chairman. You would not know about that?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. AVhen you arrived, when you docked in New York,
did you have any trouble in getting through customs with the ma-
terial you had brought over?
Miss Vooros. I received a white slip and I had to put down every-
thing— I don't know — of $20 value, or something like that. I put
down "books" and the inspector looked at them. He did not look
underneath the books where the uniforms were. While he was in-
specting them, this boy William Sellin was standing right in front
of me. He asked me what the books were for; I told him they were
for my library, and he just looked at one or two of them. I had
the least important ones on top.
Mr. Whitley. And Hugo Haas told you to whom you were to de-
liver the books and uniforms?
Miss Vooros. They were to be called for.
Mr. Whitley. They were to be called for ?
Miss Vooros. Yes; and Erika Hagebush called for them.
Mr. Whitley. Now, he told you they were to be called for. Did
anyone meet you at the boat ?
Miss Vooros. My father met me at the boat.
Mr. Whitley. And 2 days after you landed, Erika Hagebush — she
now is a national leader of the Youth Movement in this country?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That is the girls' division?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. She called at your home for the books and uni-
forms ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you gave them to her ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. She knew you were bringing them back?
Miss Vooros. Yes. And my father had received word that Mr.
Kuhn wanted to see me the moment I docked ; that it was very im-
portant. My sister was the only one who knew I was taking this
trip and when I was returning, and she probably let out wTien I
was leaving, and Mr. Vandenberg let Out the remark that "one tele-
G(H| gram and I would stay in Germany."
Mr. Whitley. When you had delivered the books and uniforms to
Erika Hagebush, then you had fulfilled your mission as far as that
flit was concerned ?
il. Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know what she did with those ?
(Miss Vooros. They went to the camp.
Mr. Whitley. They went to the camp ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Camp Nordland?
Miss Vooros. Camp Nordland; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did she tell you that ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; she told me that.
Mr. Whitley. She told you that was where they were going?
3954 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Then immediately after you docked, your parents
told you that Kuhn had instructed them to have you get in touch
with him as soon as you landed ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. "Whitley. He had already come back from Germany?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; he had already come back from Germany.
Mr. Whitley. He was there while you were there, but he had
come back in the meantime ?
M'ss Vooros. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. Did he indicate why he needed to see you im-
mediately ?
Miss Vooros. It was only logical ; because, after all, I was in Europe
and went to this camp, and he did not want a word of it to get
around.
Mr. Whitley. And your sister had said something?
Miss Vooros. My sister had a dispute with Vandenberg
Mr. Whitley. While you were gone?
Miss Vooros. Yes; and he said it would take only one telegram
and I would be forced to stay in Germany.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Vandenberg, the Brooklyn leader, told your
sister that?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That it would just take one telegram and you would
have to stay in Germany?
Mr. Whitley. He told you that?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. When did you see Kuhn — immediately?
Miss Vooros. No; I saw him later. You see, I had no intentions
of going back to Kuhn and being connected any further with the
bund.
Mr. Whitley. Did you tell Kuhn that?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; I did ; and he wanted to see me ; he always said
he wanted to see me, and I told him I wanted him to leave me alone.
I went to Kuhn and told him I wanted to be left alone and would
not have anything to do with it. Kuhn wanted to know what the
trouble was; why I left the bund, and all that. I said because of
the immoralities and what they were doing, and sending out to
Germany, and it was not right. After all, they said they were
fighting for Americanism, and there is not one thing, since I have
been in the bund, that I have learned about Americanism in this
country. He said that I had better be quiet about it ; that it would
not be very pleasant for me to speak about it, or even if I went to
the courts for something I would have a record. Sliss \
Mr. Whitley. That you would have a record?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Is that as far as he went in what might happen,
as an implied threat?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Starxes. Who said that — Kuhn?
Miss Vooros. Kuhn said that ; and he also said he would not be
responsible for what happened.
Mr. Whitley. If anything happened to you he would accept no
responsibility ?
Jlr.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3955
I
Miss Vooros. If anything happened to me he would accept no
(responsibility.
Mr. Whitley. That was after your meeting with him, when you
went to sec him; and he sent for you and you went to see him
later — not immediately?
Miss Vooros. Yes. In the meantime, a man was sent to see me.
Mr. Deppe is his name. He is an undercover man; he is an active
member of the bund. They sent him to my house to find out how
much I had really talked about the organization.
Mr. Whitley. To find out what your attitude was?
Miss Vooros. What my attitude was.
Mr. Whitley. And he questioned you and tried to find out?
Miss Vooros. Yes; he did.
Mr. Whitley. Did he try to get you to reconsider?
Miss Vooros. Yes; he did.
Mr. Whitley. Did he make any threats, direct or implied, as to
what might happen if you withdrew from the bund?
Miss Vooros. No; he said it was not very honest; if I began to
talk about it, I should always consider there is a little German
blood in me.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Then at the time you talked to Mr. Kuhn,
did he bring up any particular incident that had occurred, that he
wanted to ask you about ?
Miss Vooros. He asked me in reference to Dinkelacker — what the
trouble was.
Mr. Whitley. And the situation on the boat there?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Incidentally, how old is Dinkelacker?
Miss Vooros. Forty-two or forty-four.
Mr. Whitley. And I believe you said the young lady, the girl,
was 17?
Miss Vooros. The girl was 17; yes.
saiii Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn had heard about that?
lime. Miss Vooros. Yes ; Mr. Kuhn had heard about that.
Mr. Whitley. And Mr. Kuhn asked you to tell him about it?
Miss Vooros. And I told him about it.
Mr. Whitley. What was his comment?
Miss Vooros. He said he was going to take care of it.
Mr. Whitley. That he would take care of that?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That was before the break; I mean you made it
clear at the time you talked with Mr. Kuhn that you were going to
have nothing to do with the organization ?
Miss Vooros. Yes; and Mr. Kuhn gave me a lecture because I
visited my only sister in Germany, and she did not know he was the
person, and I went and told her he was the person and she got in
touch with him.
Mr. Whitley. He had not let her know?
Miss Vooros. No; she did not know a thing about it, and he said
I had no right to talk about it.
(I Mr. Whitley. Did you tell Mr. Kuhn about the fact that Mr.
Vandenberg, the Brooklyn leader, had been annoying you for a long
time ?
Miss Vooros. I did ; and he did not do a thing about it.
:1|f::,
3956 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. He did not?
Miss Vooros. Because, as we were an incorporated town, I could
not possibly go to court nor could he go to court.
Mr. Whitley. Did lie express any resentment or criticism?
Miss Vooros. He said he could not believe me, and I said "I have
letters he wrote to me while in Germany," and he said I must dis-
card the letters. He said, "I don't believe he wrote them."
Mr. Whitley. That was the time you definitely and positively
broke with the bund?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Now are you acquainted with, or were you ac-
quainted with Dr. Griebl, in New York?
Miss Vooros. He was my doctor.
Mr. Whitley. He was your physician?
Miss Vooros. Yes; he was.
Mr. Whitley. For what period, approximately?
Miss Vooros. For 6 months.
Mr. Whitley. You are referring now to Dr. I. T. Griebl, is it?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. The one who fled this country?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. At the time the Nazi spy investigation was being
conducted in New York by the F. B. I. ?
Miss Vooros. That is right; yes.
Mr. Whitley. How long had you known Dr. Griebl ?
Miss Vooros. I said 4 to 6 months.
Mr. Whitley. Was he considered the official doctor for the Youth
Movement of the bund, or the German groups ?
Miss Vooros. No ; I did not hear anything like that.
Mr. Whitley. You went to him voluntarily ?
Miss Vooros. Yes; I went to him voluntarily.
Mr. Whitley. You were not sent to him, or he was not recom-
mended to you by any officials ?
Miss Vooros. No; he was not.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know what his connection with the bund or
any of its officials was?
Miss Vooros. I do not know, but he always did such undercover
work, you know, that they respected the man. They were friendly
with him, the bund members. He is in constant contact with bund
members. He was in constant contact with Mr. Deppe and Mr.
Schilling.
The Chairman. How did you know that to be a fact ?
Miss Vooros. Because I know both people. I have seen them to-
gether.
The Chairman. Often?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Was that the same Mr. Deppe who came and talked
to you?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Ptarnes. Is this Mr. Deppe an American citizen, or a German?
Miss Vooros. I cannot say. He sent his family to Germany and he
came there one evening and I asked him "Why?" and he said "You
never know what may come up these days," so undoubtedly he was
expecting something.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3957
Mr. Whitley. By the way, how did this Erika Hagebush go to
Germany — with your group?
Miss Vooros. No; I met her in Germany. She had gone there in
September 1937.
Sir. Whitley. And you went there in April 1938?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What about Hugo Haas?
Miss Vooros. He was there.
Mr. Whitley. Was he in your party, or was he already over there?
Miss Vooros. He was there.
Mr. Whitley. He was there, and he had gone over there before you
had gone there?
Miss Vooros. For quite some time.
Mr. Whitley. What about Franz Nicolay?
Miss Vooros. He had gone over.
The Chairman. His father is Karl Nicolay?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Whitley. Franz Nicolay went to Germany in September 1937?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And the youth group went there, of which you wera
a member, in April 1938 ?
Miss Vooros. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know what they were doing over there?
Were they over there just on a visit?
Miss Vooros. They were studying at Stuttgart.
Mr. Whitley. They were taking that 8 months' course?
Miss Vooros. They were taking that 8 months' course.
Mr. Whitley. The long course?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. What sort of a course ?
Miss Vcoros. As I said, on national socialism. This girl was sent
to one of those homes, mother and child homes, to study nursing,
aside from national socialism, and this boy was studying the short
wave.
Mr. Starnes. They later came back to this country — both of
them ?
Miss Vooros. Thev did. Thev are here now.
Mr. Starnes. They are here now?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And what is their official connection with the bund ?
Miss Vooros. She is the youth leader of the Germans throughout
the country, the girls' division, and he is the youth leader of the
boys. They are both working under Mr. Kunze.
The Chairman. Where does Mr. Nicolay live — Karl Nicolay?
Miss Vooros. He is not here.
The Chairman. He is not here any more?
Miss Vooros. No.
The Chairman. Where does the boy live? He does not live here,
either?
Miss Vooros. No; his address has never been revealed, either.
The Chairman. Do you know where Mai lives?
Miss Vooros. In Rid<rewood.
The Chairman. In Ridgewood?
Miss Vooros. Yes. I don't know their addresses.
94931 — 39— vol. G 17
3958 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Getting back to Dr. Griebl; he was your personal
doctor and you have seen him associating with bund members and
officials ?
Miss Vooros. Yes. You see, he had this organization, literature
and arts club — this was before I was a member — and he wanted me
to join.
Mr. Whitley. He visited you before you joined ?
Miss Vooros. No; before I was a member. He had this literature
and arts club, you know, and when I went to him he invited me to
one of the meetings, and I went with my girl friend, and there I
met him with Mr. Schiller.
Mr. Whitley. Who is Mr. Schiller? Do you know his first name?
Miss Vooros. Frederick Schiller. He is a man who deals mostly
on the masonic angle.
Mr. Whitley. Nazi propaganda?
Miss Vooros. Yes; Nazi propaganda. He gets shipments each
month from Germany of this masonic propaganda.
Mr. Whitley. Does he lecture on that subject?
Miss Vooros. He does.
Mr. Whitley. You have heard him lecture ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. At meetings?
Miss Vooros. Yes; at meetings.
Mr. Whitley. And he is the one who has the concession at the
camp to sell those books — propaganda?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know where he lives ?
Miss Vooros. He lives at 1280 Clay Avenue.
Mr. Whitley. Brooklyn?
Miss Vooros. No; Manhattan, near One Hundred and Sixty-ninth
Street.
Mr. Whitley. And is he openly affiliated with the bund, or does he
seem to occupy some little different position ?
Miss Vooros. In the bund : he is working in the bund.
Mr. Whitley. He is working in the bund ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you have seen him associate with Dr. Griebl ?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And at this meeting you attended in Dr. Griebl's
house, what was the nature of the meeting?
Miss Vooros. Because of my illness, I did not see Mr. Schiller. I
was at the meeting.
Mr. Whitley. That meeting was at Dr. Griebl's house ?
Miss Vooros. This was not Dr. Griebl's house; this was an interne
on Eighty-sixth Street, where they had the meeting, and he lectured
for an hour.
Mr. Whitley. Were bund members there?
Miss Vooros. Schiller was, and Deppe.
Mr. Whitley. And you have seen them together?
Miss Vooros. Quite often. We called them the "undercover" men,
you see. They do a lot of work, but we do not know what they do.
Mr. Whitley. Those three were called "undercover" men?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Were they all bund members?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3959
w»i
there
nam
mosfl
ts eai
at U
Miss Vooros. Yes; but they do work that no one knows about.
Mr. Whitley. They were members of the bund doing a certain type
of work, but you did not know what type of work or what kind of
work?
Miss Vooros. No.
Mr. Whitley. When was it that Dr. Griebl fled New York while
he was being sought in connection with the Nazi spy ring in New
York— approximately?
Miss Vooros. At the beginning of last year.
Mr. Whitley. The early part of last year?
Miss Vooros. The early part of last year.
Mr. Whitley. Did you hear any comment at that time in the bund
with reference to his disappearance?
Miss Vooros. There is a certain ship, the steamship Brandt, on
which Spankknobel went over, and Dr. Griebl. Those ships are ready
to take anyone over who is discredited.
Mr. Whitley. Don't they have to have a visa, or passport ?
Miss Vooros. Nothing.
Mr. Whitley. You make reference to Spankknabel or Spank-
knobel \
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Will you identify him for us?
Miss Vooros. I don't know his first name. He was sought by the
F. B. I. and, when the F. B. I. at that time were looking for him, he
was hidden all along in Mr. Winterscheidt's house.
Mr. Whitley. At the time the F. B. I. were looking for him ?
Miss Vooros. Yes; and the bund members knew about it.
Mr. Whitley. And he was being hid in Mr. Winterscheidt's home?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. How do you know that?
Miss Vooros. Because his secretary told us.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Winterscheidt's secretary?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was she in a position to know that ?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; they were close friends.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Winterscheidt's secretary ?
Miss Vooros. Yes. She was one of the girls who went over with us
to Germany.
Mr. Whitley. And she told you that while the F. B. I. were look-
ing for Spankknobel, he was hid in Mr. Winterscheidt's home?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Winterscheidt is the former Weckruf editor
and publication man who, on two occasions, was arrested for morals
offenses \
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And is now serving time?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know anything further about Dr. Griebl
than we have already covered; do you know of anything else that
>r"fflfIJi might be of interest to the committee?
Miss Vooros. No. Erika Hagebush relates an incident, when I told
her that, when I told her how Dinkelacker looked at me, and she said
that was nothing; that Hitler had his own sugar and praising for
«bl!
Griei
f.
3960 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
work, and the girls who had a chance to study at Stuttgart would get
a chance to meet Hitler.
Mr. Whitley. What kind of work was he praising them for?
Miss Vooros. The work they were doing here.
Mr. Whitley. During their training period over there, were the
references made to the type of work you were being trained for fre-
quent and specific?
Miss Vooros. Yes ; they were.
Mr. Whitley. Was there anything subtle about the approach, or
would they just say you were being trained to conduct propaganda
work ?
Miss Vooros. That is what we were there for.
Mr. Whitley. That was the definite understanding?
Miss Vooros. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That was the sole purpose of the training?
Miss Vooros. That was.
Mr. Whitley. And you were to come back to this country prepared
and trained to carry on that propaganda work?
Miss Vooros. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, that, I believe, completes this witness.
The Chairman. Are there any questions by members of the com-
mittee? If there are no more questions, the committee will recess
until 10 o'clock Monday morning.
(The committee thereupon took a recess until Monday, August 21,
1939, at 10 a. m.)
ifollj
111 of
Dr. S^
Mr,'
4\:
for!
for h
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
MONDAY, AUGUST 21, 1939
House of Representatives,
Special Committee to Investigate Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C.
The committee met at 10 a. m., in the caucus room, House Office
>:c Building, Hon. Man in Dies (chairman), presiding.
Present: Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Who is the
wtiislnext witness, Mr. Whitley?
heconil Mr. Whitley. Dr. Sherman.
TOs_
TESTIMONY OF DR. JOHN HARVEY SHERMAN
igust ,il
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Whitley. Please state your full name for the record.
Dr. Sherman. John Harvey Sherman.
Mr. Whitley. What is vour address?
Dr. Sherman. University of Tampa, Tampa, Fla.
Mr. Whitley. What is your position in that university I
Dr. Sherman. I am the president.
Mr. Whitley. You are the president of the University of Tampa?
Dr. Sherman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Have you in the last year or so had any contact
svith any representatives or officials of the German Government, or
:he Xazi government?
The Chairman. Before we go into that, I suggest that we develop
tnore fully who the witness is, and what his past experience has been.
I suggest that you develop that for the sake of the record.
Alr. Whitley. How long have you occupied your position as presi-
dent of the University of Tampa ?
Dr. Sherman. Since January 14, 1937.
Mr. Whitley. Did you have any previous experience, or educa-
:ional experience?
Dr. Sherman. Yes; I had previously been connected with the Lake
Forest University, Illinois. I had been a professor at Lake Forest
University; at the University of Chattanooga, and also taught in
■Northwestern and the University of Minnesota.
Mr. Whitley. Are you a native of the United States?
Dr. Sherman. I am a native of Virginia, of Fairfax County, about
15 miles from here.
I Mr. Whitley. Do you have at your university a German-language
department ?
3961
3962 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Dr. Sherman. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Who is the professor in charge of the instruction in
that department?
Dr. Sherman. The professor in charge is Otto P. Kraus.
Mr. Whitley. How long has he occupied that position in your
institution ?
Dr. Sherman. Since May 1937.
Mr. Whitley. Is he a native-born American citizen ?
Dr. Sherman. He is a native of Vienna, Austria.
Mr. Whitley. Since he has been connected with your institution as
a teacher of German has he indicated any sympathy for the present
Nazi regime in Germany?
Dr. Sherman. No.
Mr. Whitley. What has been his attitude with reference to the Nazi
government ?
Dr. Sherman. Dr. Kraus on coming to America immediately be-
came an American citizen. He left Germany because he was not in
sympathy with the conditions there. He teaches German and also one
course in philosophy. He was originally trained in philosophy, and
in the course of teaching in German philosophy he made it clear that
he was bitterly opposed to the Nazi system. He is thoroughly demo-
cratic— liberal and democratic.
Mr. Whitley. Has that attitude on his part toward the Nazi gov-
ernment been rather generally known in that section of the country?
Dr. Sherman. That is known — quite generally known.
Mr. Whitley. Will you describe for the committee, or explain to
the committee, the events leading up to the meeting that you had some
time ago with a representative of the Nazi government ?
Dr. Sherman. The story begins in the fall of 1937, after Professor
Kraus had begun his service with the university. There began a series
of attacks through rumor or innuendo against Professor Kraus; first,
to the effect that he did not speak correct German; and then to the
effect that he had not had the training that he claimed at the University
of Vienna. Of course, we could check on those things, and usually we
could trace the rumors back to the same source, which would be an
antidemocratic source, and, although we would find that to be the
case, we oftentimes would not be able to prove it. We knew it, or we
knew where the direct indications pointed. Then came attacks of a
personal character, which we could laugh down, because we knew his
character. He was a very fine man. Then it all died down for nearly
6 months. Then, on the 10th of March 1938, a stranger, or one who
was a stranger to us, called my office and got my secretary, identifying
himself as Mr. Ernest Berger, a German consul-general delegate. He
did not state that he was the consul-general delegate.
Mr. Whitley. He did not identify himself at that time as a consul-
general delegate?
Dr. Sherman. No; not at that time. The university had recently
received a donation of an important private library, and that had been
spread in the papers. This gentleman called to say that he had noticed
we were receiving such a donation, and that he had a friend that he fift
believed could be induced to give us some books. He asked if we would
like such a donation. I said "Yes," or the secretary did. I was out of
town at the time. He said, "Very well," he would try to make an
arrangement for an interview. About 3 days later he called to make a
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3963
in vn
definite appointment, and made an appointment for the 16th of March
1938. On the 16th he called to say that his friend would not be able
to get there on the 16th ; that he was the German consul at New Orleans
and had been delayed on the way oyer, and would not get there until
the 17th.
Mr. Whitley. That is the first you knew about him?
Dr. Sherman. That is the first 1 knew who this donor was, and
naturally it started me to thinking. When the consul came he was
the German consul general to New Orleans.
Mr. Whitley. What was his name?
Dr. Sherman. The name is Baron Edgar Freiberr Spiegel von
und zu Peckelsheim. He arrived with the consul delegate, who in-
troduced him. It was the first I had met the man. I at once turned
to Mr. Berger. and said, "Is this the gentleman who is giving us the
books? The baron immediately said, "Not I, but my Government."
tely bs jje corrected me at once. Well, that is all I wanted to know.
"l,t: Mr. Whitley. Did he elaborate on it?
Dr. Sherman. We were not interested in the books. The Baron
went on to tell me about it. I drew him out some. I did not make
known then we did not want the books. He said that they were in
the practice of thus encouraging the study of German in American
colleges. He made it perfectly clear that he had given such books
elsewhere. He did not say where, and I did not ask him. He said
that it was, of course, important that they be assured that we had a
proper department of German to use the books, that the professor
was all right, and that he wanted to know whether the professor in
charge was adequate, and whether I would see that he spoke the
German language correctly from the Government's point of view.
At that point the conversation ceased to be pleasant, and we engaged
in mutual recriminations. That disposed of it.
Mr. Whitley. Did he make any suggestion as to whether your
present German professor would be acceptable to him or to his Gov-
ernment ?
Dr. Sherman. Not directly. He said that the man that used these
books would have to be acceptable. I told him that I did not believe
our professor would be acceptable, and turned to the local man,
Berger, reminding him who our professor was. There was no direct
statement that our professor would not be acceptable but simply the
statement that he must be acceptable, or that we must have a pro-
fessor who would be acceptable.
Mr. Whitley^. The condition on which the Government would do-
ntifyinj nate those books to the German library was that your professor of
:>/H German must be acceptable to them \
Dr. Sherman. Yes sir.
Mr. Whitley. That the man who was to use the books in the
teaching would have to be approved by them?
Dr. Sherman. Yes, sir.
jliifr Mr. Whitley. He made that condition clear?
Dr. Sherman. That condition was made very clear. The original
offer of the books made, not by the consul general, but by the consul
ffoufl delegate over the phone, before they came there, was that these books
which his friend was to give were books in German and also books
about Germany. Those two classes of books were specified.
eai
plain (
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rofessor
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it, or ^
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3964 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. You also stated that the German consul general,
in his conversation with 3Tou leading up to the condition attached to
it, made it clear that similar offers had been made to other institu-
tions, and this was not an isolated instance?
Dr. Sherman. What he said was, "We are in the practice.'5
Mr. Whitley. In the practice of donating them ?
Dr. Sherman. Yes, sir; that is what he said, in the practice of
putting them where he would be sure that they would be properly
used. That is the way he expressed it.
Mr. Whitley. Is it your impression from your conversation with
the consul that he was doing it voluntarily, on his own part, as an
individual, or that he was doing it on behalf of the Xazi Govern-
ment which he represented ?
Dr. Sherman. Mr. Berger, the consul delegate, had given the im-
pression it was to be a private donation, but almost the first word
the baron spoke disclaimed that, and made it clear that it was a
governmental donation. Mr. Berger. I might add. resigned as con-
sul delegate shortly after that. He has shown great dissatisfaction
with the developments that have grown out of this.
Mr. Whitley. Is it also your impression. Doctor, that the fact
that your German professor was not sympathetic with the teachings
of Nazi Germany had become known, and that that might have
inspired this offer with the reservations that were attached \
Dr. Sherman. I believe it entirely proved it.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, the circumstances lead to that belief?
Dr. Sherman. Yes. Our professor had made addresses, and nu-
merous addresses, mostly before the American Legion, Daughters of
the American Revolution, and other patriotic societies, and educa-
tional groups. He made addresses that were very critical of the
Nazi regime.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know of any similar instances that have oc-
curred, so far as this particular consul was concerned \
Dr. Sherman. Only by indications. In the first place, so far as
can be ascertained locally, although he made many social visits to
Tampa, my college is the only place at which the baron attempted
to transact any actual business. It would seem to indicate that pos-
sibly he came there for that purpose, although, again, that is only
what we think. I put it out of mind, regarding it merely as a local
attack on our professor until the meeting of the Southern Associa-
tion of Colleges at Memphis in March 1939. one year later, when it
developed in a personal conversation with President Rufus Harris,
of Tulane University, that he was quite discontented with the activ-
ities of this same man around his campus, the baron, he said, having
smuggled to various faculty groups, treating them with more than
due friendship. It was. as a result of the conversation with Presi-
dent Harris, that I asked him, as president of a much older and
stronger institution, to take up the matter, and follow it through, and
let me out of it. T expected myself to be able to keep out of this
limelight. It is rather damaging to a college executive to be too much
in (lie papers. It is damaging to his professional reputation. I will
be glad if all these photographs are rejected in the editorial room.
Mr. Whitley. After the date of the appointment, or at the first
meeting with the consular representative in Tampa, Mr. Berger. was
there any indication on his part, identifying this visitor as the per-
son who was to donate these books?
UN-AMKUICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3%5
Dr. Sherman. The first inquiry made was to indicate that this
was simply, as he said, that a friend would give the hooks; that it
was simply from some local source. The only other thought as to
Berger was that before that time his son, a few months hefore, had
been an applicant for a position in our music faculty, and I first
thought that the father was trying to sweeten the way a little for
his son.
Mr. Whitley. When the appointment was made, did this consul
delegate say that this German consul general at New Orleans was
coming to see you with reference to the donation of the books?
Dr. Sherman. No: that did not come out until the time the visit
was postponed.
Mr. Whitley. It was not before that?
Dr. Sherman. It was the day he arrived.
Mr. "Whitley. During the conversation with you, did the Baron
indulge in any criticism or remarks insofar as the Jewish race was
concerned, or did lie suggest excluding them from your institution?
Dr. Sherman. He told me that he thought the fact that we had
no quota restriction upon Jews in our college and that we had Jews
in our faculty was a mistake, and he predicted that from other ex-
periences we would regret it.
Mr. Whitley. That covers all the questions I have in mind, Mr.
Chairman.
The Chairman. Who is this man Berger ?
Dr. Sherman. Mr. Ernest Berger is a resident of Tampa.
The Chairman. Is he a citizen of the United States?
Dr. Sherman. So far as I know, yes ; I think he is. He is an in-
vestment broker, having offices in Tampa and New York.
The Chairman. What was the name of his boy?
Dr. Sherman. His son spells his name B-e-r-g-e-r-e. He calls him-
self Bergere, being a musician.
The Chairman. Do you know, whether or not, Mr. Berger was ever
identified with the German-American Bund?
Dr. Sherman. I do not know. There is a German-American so-
ciety in Tampa. I have no way of knowing whether Berger acted
for them or not. He was the consul delegate in Tampa at that time,
and resigned shortly after.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about the activities of the
bund in connection with the university? Has there been any effort,
so far as you know, to build up some of their activities in the uni-
versity \
Dr. Sherman. I have every reason Ob believe that there has been no
such activity.
The Chairman. When you spoke of an association — you referred to
an association of southern universities.
Dr. Sherman. Yes; of Southern universities and colleges, of 11
Southern States. They have an association which meets from year
to year.
The Chairman. Did you talk to any other college professors or
presidents about this matter, other than the president of Tulane
University ?
Dr. Sherman. No, sir. I tried to tell my story to him in order
that he might have whatever he wanted to work out or get out of
it. I wanted as little as possible.
3966 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Did he describe to you the character of the activi-
ties that this Baron engaged in in and about his university?
Dr. Sherman. Yes. He said he did not like the activities of this
man around the university. He used the words "snuggling to them.n
The Chairman. That is, cultivating them ?
Dr. Sherman. Cultivating the faculty of Tulane University.
The Chairman. Did he say that the Baron was undertaking to get
the faculty to place the Germans in a favorable light in their class-
rooms, or how did you construe the statement that he was snuggling
with the faculty ?
Dr. Sherman. His statement was that he was snuggling, and that
he did not like it. He gave me the impression that he did not like
it. That is the idea — that it amounted to indirect pressure.
The Chairman. Did he give any details of the man's activities ?
Dr. Sherman. No, sir; except that he was glad to get my instance
to add to his. I imagined he was one of the men who would come
before the committee.
Mr. Mason. You say that it is your impression that this man
Berger is a citizen of the United States?
Dr. Sherman. I only know this — that when this matter came out
in some way, in Pearson and Allen's Merry-Go-Round, when they
got hold of this incident and published it, in his reaction to it, he
first entered a denial. The baron, who professed not to be able to
remember much about the visit, said he had been to Tampa Uni-
versity and had been insulted there by either the president or some-
body down there ; he was not sure who. At the same time, there
was a very indignant letter from Mr. Berger, who apparently felt
that he had been put in a bad light by the Merry-Go-Bound article.
He also reminded me truthfully that the baron had not made the
offer of books, which is true. Berger made the offer before the
baron came. The baron then transferred the offer from himself to
the Government.
I wrote back to Berger advising him not to say or do anything
which might look like obstructing the efforts of our Government
to trace or control such activities by foreign powers within our
borders. In reply to that letter there came one from him which
concluded with the words, "Above all, we are both good Americans,"
and protesting his loyalty to the State and the university. He did
not profess specifically loyalty to the United States, although he
said he was a good American. I do not know whether he is a citizen
or not.
Mr. Mason. Would you gafher from his expression that "we are
both good Americans" that he was a citizen?
Dr. Sherman. He certainly was implying that.
Mr. Mason. The question in my mind is whether this man is a
citizen of the United States while acting in the official capacity of ;i
consul delegate for a foreign government. I should think that would
be impossible.
Dr. Sherman. I do not know concerning that. I am under the
impression that the State Department wrote and inquired about this
matter, and the letter from one of the Assistant Secretaries of State
stated that they there had no record of Mr. Berger as a consul
delegate. Nevertheless, he carried that title and had that office in
Tampa for a considerable time. I have been told that the consul
IX AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3967
must be a citizen of the country represented, but that in small ports
they did have consul delegates, who are natives of the receiving or
host country, who represent the consul general.
The Chairman. When this baron came to see you, he made it
clear to you that any offer of any books you received would be con-
ditioned'upon the books being taught by the right sort of man?
Dr. Sherman. Yes.
The Chairman. And he made it clear that the books would come
from his Government '.
Dr. Sherman. Yes.
The Chairman. Rather than from an individual?
Dr. Sherman. Yes. I regret very much that I did not draw him
out further. I was exactly at that point of getting all I wanted
to know.
The Chairman. You are certain that it was an effort to use your
university to propagandize the Nazi Government?
Dr. Sherman. Yes. I got rid of him as soon as I could. I realize
now I should have drawn him out further.
The Chairman. You referred to the Association of Southern Col-
leges and Universities, but you do not know whether similar incidents
occurred in other colleges besides Tulane University ?
Dr. Sherman. No; I do not. I have learned since of similar in-
stances on the Pacific coast, of which Mr. Whitley has information.
The Chairman. The baron made it clear to you that it was his
practice, or the Government's practice, to make these donations of
books to colleges and universities under those conditions. He made it
clear that it was a practice on the part of his Government?
Dr. Sherman. He did. He now denies this.
The Chairman. We thank you for your testimony.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, the other witness for today has been
delayed unavoidably, and there is no other witness available at the
moment and will not be any today.
The Chairman. There is another witness here, I believe, whom Mr.
Voorhis has requested, if possible, be held until he, Mr. Voorhis,
reaches the city so he can ask him some questions.
Mr. Whitley. That is right.
The Chairman. That witness has been here several days, but he
will not be heard today.
Mr. AVhitley. The other witness I referred to is unavoidably de-
tained and will not be here until tomorrow.
Before the committee adjourns I would like to read into the record
a few excerpts from German sources which I believe might be helpful.
Mr. Mason. Before you proceed further I want to make a statement
for the record, in regard to a news item I saw in the paper this morning
in connection with a statement that Congressman Thomas has made
and a statement that the chairman has made as to the program, or
schedule, and purposes of the investigation.
I want to say this emphatically, that it is my understanding that
this committee, when it was set up, was to investigate subversive activ-
ities, or un-American activities, regardless of where they were, regard-
less of what group was engaged in such activities, and that there is no
partisan matter to be considered, whether these subversive activities
reach into the Republican camp or the Democratic camp or any other
camp.
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3968 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
That is not the purpose; and I, for one, as a member of this com- I flieC
mittee, feel that we should not and must not make these investigations
in any manner a partisan matter. If we do, we will then nullify or i
kill the effectiveness of the work of the committee. We cannot be too
guarded in that matter.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, these excerpts I want to read into the
record are all from official German sources.
This is an excerpt from a decree which has to do with foreign
travel by university teachers and students, and this particular ex-
cerpt is an extract from a decree of the Minister of Education. In-
cidentally, the original German is reproduced along with the trans-
lation, and this will be turned over to the reporter. It says:
It has frequently been observed of late that Germans, and especially pro-
fessors and students, when traveling abroad for cultural or scientific purposes,
have failed to establish contact with their local national official representa-
tives. Such contact is especially important in countries where Jewry occupies
a predominant influence in cultural affairs, and where emigrants seek to press
into the foreground in questions concerning German cultural life. In these
countries it is particularly necessary that German national guests, local or
official, shall be informed of these local relationships by the official national
representatives abroad.
I therefore order that all persons subject to my Ministry —
That is, the Minister of Education —
who travel abroad for study, research, or lectures, or for congresses, or similar
purposes, shall on their arrival in a foreign country forthwith get in contact
with the competent local representative of Germany, with the Foreign Organi-
zation of the Nazi Party, and with the branch office of the German Academic
Exchange Service, wherever possible. If this be not done a short report of
the reasons must be furnished to me.
The reference there is very interesting, giving instructions that
they will get in touch with the official representative of the German
Government, and also with the Foreign Organization of the Nazi
Party.
The Chairman. It does not specify what the foreign organizations
of the Nazi Party are ?
Mr. Whitley. No; it does not specify that, but it is a general
instruction, and it indicates that there is such an organization wher-
ever travel might be performed.
The next excerpt I want to read is from an article entitled "The
Character of the Foreign Organization," by Dr. Ehrlich. He is
the secretary of the Foreign Organization of the N. S. D. A. P.
That is the National Socialist Party. He is the foreign secretary
of the National Socialist Party. This article says :
Just as the ambassador, the envoy, and the consul represent the government
of our Reich abroad, so is the National Socialist group leader the standard
bearer of the Foreign Organization, the representative of the Movement for
German Reconstruction and German Conservation. He is the representative
of the German Nation abroad. It is his responsibility to make the Foreign
Organization the true homo of Germans abroad and to teach them to under-
stand fully the present policy and the future plans of the Fuehrer, in spite of
distance and in spite of the distorted influence of their environment. The
loader of the National Group is the guaranty that national socialism will
become something that is self-evident to the Germans abroad, just as their
Germandom should be. and that the Foreign Organization of the N. S. D. A. P.,
on the basis of the decree of the Fuehrer of January 30, 1937, will become
the Foreign Organization of the German Reich.
Again, reference is to the foreign organizations of the party.
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The Chairman. Your purpose, as I understand it, is to follow this
up later with evidence from Germany that Germany has considered
the German-American Bund as its foreign organization in the United
States?
Mr. Whitley. Yes, Mr. Chairman; and also, we have had consid-
erable testimony with reference to bund activities now in this coun-
try, and the connection with the various agencies of the Nazi govern-
ment.
These are verbatim quotations from the officials of that government
concerning their foreign organizations and their foreign represent-
atives.
The testimony heretofore already presented, I believe, rather con-
clusively indicates that the German-American Bund is one of those
foreign organizations referred to.
I merely want to read these excerpts in order to put into the record
statements of Nazi officials concerning their activities.
The Chairman. As I understand, in addition to this, however, there
are statements by German officials to the effect that they themselves
have recognized the German-American Bund as the representative of
the Nazi government, or the National Socialist Party in the United
States.
Mr. Whitley. That specific reference to the United States is not
made. These references are general, but not limited as to their
scope.
Mr. Mason. But, Mr. Whitley, if these are general and not specific
in their scope, and apply to all countries, then we have definite testi-
repo"rti mony that the German-American Bund, or some other organization
in the United States is the representative of that government, then
that ties these general statements to our situation.
Mr. Whitley. That is right.
Mr. Mason. And to the organizations that are operating in this
country.
Mr. Whitley. That is right; then these statements will apply to
the organizations in this country.
The Chairman. I understood that this committee had evidence, or
there has been a tender of evidence, or of quotations from German
officials themselves in which they have specifically designated the
Bund as the representative of their government. It may be I am in
error as to that.
.Air. Whitley. We have the testimony to that effect.
The Chairman. I know; I mean that in addition, there is testi-
mony with certain quotations from these German leaders, as I under-
stand. That will be developed later.
Mr. Whitley. This is a quotation from an article by Dr. Friedrich
Lange, who is the editor of the official publication for the V. D. A.
in Berlin, which is the Foreign Institute, or one of the agencies of
the Nazi government. This article, with the caption, "German Na-
totf* tionalitv Throughout the World," savs:
„„, \ There are approximate^ a hundred minion people in the world who speak
German as their mother tongue. We are a nation of a hundred millions. Of
these approximately 67,000,00) live in the German Reich; the others live in
p 1 1 other countries.
That statement is in keeping with previous testimony that all Ger-
man-speaking people, wherever they are, belong to the Fuehrer, and
irtv. are under the Nazi regime.
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3970 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Another article by Dr. Friedrich Lange, who is the editor of the
V. D. A., the official organ in Berlin, says :
Thus we shall exterminate at its root the linguistic definition which speaks
of the "Austrian brother nation" because a brother nation does not exist in
Austria, in Memel, in Danzig, etc., for there is only one German nation which
may be forced to live in different states or under special political conditions.
Never again shall we call a foreign city with German inhabitants by an alien
name.
That is in keeping with previous testimony as to the attitude of
German officials with reference to German-speaking people, regard-
less of their citizenship or the country in which they reside.
This is a quotation from Dr. Hermann Goering, colonel-general
and Prussian minister of the interior. This is a quotation from an
article entitled, "Foreword to 'We Germans in the World,' " and it
says:
"We Germans throughout the world" is a term which expresses to every
German in the Reich the credo of unity with Germandom abroad. Everyone
must do his share through unswerving devotion and sacrifice so that Germany
may give to the Germans abroad what they are entitled to demand.
There is no distinction there as to citizenship.
This is from a speech by Rudolph Hess at the conference of Ger-
man chambers of commerce abroad, delivered in Berlin on June 28,
1934. Mr. Rudolph Hess is one of the ranking Nazi officials. It
says :
I consider it to be the special duty of the National Socialist state to rectify
this mistake and to work out a common basis for cooperation between Germans
in the Reich and Germans abroad.
The new Germany needs and expects the cooperation, the spiritual and men-
tal willingness to sacrifice on the part of all her racial comrades abroad. Their
positive cooperation shall be included in our great German racial community.
One other quotation. This is from a proclamation to members of
the foreign division of the N. S. D. A. P., by Ernest Wilhelm Bohle,
who is the head of the organization for Germans abroad. It says :
Loyalty, discipline, and blind obedience are the foundation pillars of every
branch of the National Socialist movement. The loose contact and the distance
in mileage between party comrades abroad, even though the organization for
Germans abroad is a solid unit, render these three virtues more necessary than
ever for those of us who are in foreign countries. Therefore, we are doing
right when we keep our organization abroad free of all racial comrades who
are not ready to adhere to the absolute discipline customary with us. Tins is
absolutely necessary for victory in the struggle for Germans living abroad.
Those are all the quotations I have in mind, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. The committee will take a recess until tomorrow
morning at 10 : 30 o'clock.
(Thereupon, the committee adjourned to meet tomorrow, Tuesday,
August 22, 1939, at 10: 30 a. m.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
TUESDAY, AUGUST 22, 1939
House of Representatives,
Special Committee to Investigate Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C
The committee met at 10 : 30 a. m., in the caucus room, House Office
Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding.
Present : Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. One of the im-
portant phases of this investigation will deal with foreign propa-
ganda. Our research department has devoted some 3 months to a
study of foreign propaganda emanating from foreign countries.
It is the chairman's idea that the research department of the com-
mittee will prepare reports and submit them to the committee from
time to time to show what efforts are made by foreign governments, the
amounts of money set aside by foreign governments for propaganda
purposes, newspaper items originating in the United States and pur-
porting to come from foreign countries, but which really originate in
America, and other matters relating to that subject.
It is the chairman's idea that Mr. Matthews be instructed to pre-
pare a series of reports giving all of the factual matters he has to the
committee, so that we will have before us the books that have been
printed in foreign countries dealing solely with the propaganda move-
ment in the United States, and the general efforts being made to in-
volve this country in a European war.
I think that is one of the most important phases of this investigation,
and I know of no other effective way to handle it, because we cannot
subpena people from foreign countries. We will have some people in
this country involved in it, but primarily, in view of the matter of
economy, it seems to me, after thinking the matter over from every
angle, that the most effective way to handle it is to have our research
department submit to the committee a series of reports dealing with
all these matters.
Probably the first report will be in the hands of the committee by
Saturday, and it will deal with British and French as well as German
efforts to propagandize this country largely to involve us in war.
I would suggest this to members of the committee with reference
to the conduct of the examination of witnesses. These witnesses have
previously been carefully examined by investigators, and I believe it
will facilitate the progress of the hearings if we will permit counsel,
as far as possible, to do the examining, and during his examination we
will make notes, and upon the conclusion of counsel's examination
3971
3972 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
each member will be called upon to indicate whether he has any ques-
tions to ask.
In that way we can avoid confusion in the record, if we will stick
to one point and develop that point, and then go, in a logical sequence,
to another point, and it will serve to clarify the testimony. If we ^
jump from one phase to another phase it will bring about confusion.
Again I want to caution the witness to make your answers respon- I shirt h
sive to the questions. No statements really ought to be made by counsel
or by members of the committee. We want to be courteous and fair Mr. ^
to all witnesses, and if a witness has an explanation — and oftentimes
a witness may not be able to answer a question just by yes or no — it is I rion. am
only fair that the witness be accorded an opportunity to make such a Mr. A
pertinent explanation bearing' upon the particular question that is
asked. H was. on
It is not the disposition of the committee to want to be unfair to 1 selling c<
any witness. We do not want to be in the role of a hard-boiled
tribunal, but at the same time we want the witnesses to be courteous I breast, a
to the committee and not engage in any personal altercation, which
only makes for confusion and does not accomplish anything.
So, if the witness will make answers responsive to the questions B the Unit
asked we can get along a lot better this morning. V V
The first witness this morning is Mr. Henry Allen. Will you pro-
ceed, Mr. Whitley.
TESTIMONY OF HENRY ALLEN. PASADENA, CALIF.
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(The witness was sworn by the Chairman.)
Mr. Whitley. Will you state your full name, Mr. Allen.
Mr. Allen. Henry Allen.
Mr. Whitley. You have no middle initial ?
Mr. Allen. Henry D. Allen.
Mr. Whitley. What is your present address?
Mr. Allen. 2860 Nina Street, Pasadena.
Mr. Whitley. Where were you born?
Mr. Allen. Worcester, Mass.
Mr. Whitley. When were you born?
Mr. Allen. 1879.
Mr. Whitley. Where were you educated ?
Mr. Allen. In the schools of Boston.
Mr. Whitley. What is the nature and extent of your educational )j,. \\
training?
Mr. Allen. High school.
Mr. Whitley. Were you in the World War ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Are you married or single?
Mr. Allen. I am married.
Mr. Whitley. Do you have any children ?
Mr. Allen. Three — I have four.
Mr. Whitley. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Allen. At the present time I am engaged in exploring mining
properties in Mexico.
Mr. Whitley. How long have you been engaged in that occupation ?
Mr. Allen. Some forty years.
Mr. Whitley. What percentage of that time has been spent in the,
United States? In other words, have you been working rather con-
tinuously, or off and on, over a period of years, in Mexico?
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UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3973
Mr. Allen. Over a period of years, yes; but my home has always
been maintained in California.
Mr. Whitley. Are you a citizen of the United States?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Have you, Mr. Allen, ever been identified with or
affiliated with the organization known as the Silver Shirts, or Silver
Shirt Legion if
Mr. Allen. At one time; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Will you describe for the committee the circum-
stances under which you became interested in joining that organiza-
tion, and where I
Mr. Allen. I became a member of the organization in Los Angeles,
and my attention to it was attracted one afternoon when, I think it
was. on the corner of Hill and Sixth Streets there was a young man
> selling copies of the official organ called ''Liberation." He was dressed
in a distinctive uniform, with the red letter "L" on his left shirt-
breast, and that attracted my attention, and I took one of the copies
he held and looked it through, and I was impressed with the fact
that they were evidently engaged in fighting Jewish communism in
the United States at that time.
Mr. Whitley. What do you mean, Mr. Allen, by Jewish commu-
nism ?
Mr. Allen. The subject matter of this article I glanced through
identified Jews with communism.
Mr. Whitley. Will you proceed.
Mr. Allen. I asked where I could get further information in re-
gard to the organization, and he directed me to a man's office in the
Arcade Building, and then, if I recall, I went there that afternoon,
and he asked me if I had ever read the Protocols, if I was familiar
with it. and I told him I was not.
He gave me a copy to read, which I did, and a few days after that
I called at their headquarters, at that time in the Walker Auditorium
Building and a month or so after that I felt that I wanted to become
a member, and I signed a card.
The Chairman. Right there, you did not establish what year that
was. May I suggest that you establish the year and the locality?
Mr. Whitley. That was in what year?
Mr. Allen. I think that was in the latter part of 1933 ; in the fall
of 1933. if I recall.
Mr. Whitley. And it was in Los Angeles?
Mr. Alien. It was in Los Angeles; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Those are the circumstances under which you first
became interested in the organization known as the Silver Legion?
Mr. Allen. That was my first kinnvledge of there being any such
organization.
Mr. Whitley. Was that the first time you had become interested in
the subjects with which that organization deals?
Mr. Allen. No ; I had made some study of the Jewish question,
if you wish to call it that.
Mr. Whitley. You mentioned that you went to the headquarters
of the Silver Shirts in Los Angeles. Thev did have headquarters
there?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
94931—39 — vol. 6 18
3974 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. And an organization there?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Who was the head of that organization?
Mr. Allen. At that time the man in charge of that post — it was
called a post, and the man in charge of that post was one Capt.
Eugene Case.
Mr. Whitley. After you had decided to join the organization, did
you become active in its affairs; did you become an active member
in any capacity, as a speaker or a writer?
Mr. Allen. No ; not at that time.
Mr. Whitley. You just joined.
Mr. Allen. We attended the meetings that were held at the vari-
ous posts around in the Los Angeles district.
Mr. Whitley. Approximately, to the best of your recollection, how
many such posts were there in that vicinity in 1933 and 1934?
Mr. Allen. I recall one post in Hollywood, one in Pasadena, and
then there was one post, if I remember, out on Vermont Avenue
somewhere. There were several posts.
Mr. Whitley. They were all active?
Mr. Allen. They were all active ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did they hold regular meetings ?
Mr. Allen. Yes; they held regular meetings.
Mr. Whitley. You stated, in response to my question, that you did
not become active in the organization.
Mr. Allen. Not at that time.
Mr. Whitley. Did you subsequentlv become active in the organiza-
tion ?
Mr. Allen. Not in the organization, as such.
Mr. Whitley. Not in the organization?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever meet Mr. William D. Pelley?
Mr. Allen. I have.
Mr. Whitley. When did you meet him, and where ?
Mr. Allen. I think I first met him in 1935. I think in the summer
of 1935.
Mr. Whitley. Where was that meeting?
Mr. Allen. I met him at a meeting which he had, or which had
been called for the rank and file of the Silver Shirts in that area at the
German House.
Mr. Whitley. That is the headquarters of the German-American
Bund in Los Angeles?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did the individual members of the Silver Shirts or
did the Silver Shirts as a group frequently meet in the German
House ?
Mr. Allen. Not frequently. The German House — and I may say
the reason the Silver Shirts organization met at the German House
was because that was the only auditorium in the metropolitan area of
Los Angeles which could be used or rented for the purposes of any
such meeting. That was the reason the meetings were held there.
Mr. Whitley. That was the only reason ?
Mr. Allen. The only reason.
Mr. Whitley. To what extent did the Silver Shirts organization
cooperate with or collaborate with the German-American Bund in
Los Angeles, in meetings or demonstrations, or social affairs?
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i
l.\ AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3975
Mr. Allen. To my knowledge, there was no collaboration with the
I rerman-American Bund, as such.
Mr. Whitley. Were you at that time personally acquainted with
any of the officials — of course, at that time it was not the German-
American Bund, but it was the "Friends of New Germany."
Mr. Allen. At that time it was the "Friends of New Germany" ; yes. /
Mr. Whitley. Were you personally acquainted with the officials
of that organization in Los Angeles?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Who were the officials of that organization in Los
Angeles in 1933 and 1934?
Mr. Allen. There were several, but the only one I recall was Mr.
Herman Schwinn.
Mr. Whitley. To your knowledge, he has been active in the
Friends of New Germany back as far as 1933?
Mr. Allen. Yes: and I believe even before that.
Mr. Whitley. What was his official capacity in the organization,
the Friends of New Germany?
Mr. Allen. I was given to understand he was the managing head
of it, or at the head of it.
Mr. Whitley. Did the Friends of New Germany have a division
known as the far western division?
Mr. Allen. Well, I do not know; I could not say as to that.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Mr. Herman Schwinn sub-
sequently became the head of the German-American Bund when the
bund replaced the previous organization, which was the Friends of
New Germany?
Mr. Allen. I am given to understand that that is his position
today.
Mr. Whitley. That is his position '.
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Coming back to the activities of the Silver Shirts
during that period, what other individuals or groups, did they co-
operate with in their activities, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. I do not know ; I have never known any of the groups*
I was only interested in the objectives of the Silver Shirts.
Mr. Whitley. What were the objectives of the Silver Shirts you
approved of, and which caused you to join that organization?
Mr. Allen. To rid the Government of the United States, the Fed-
eral Government, of Jews and Communists.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, it was an anti- Jewish organiza-
tion; their teachings were anti-Jewish?
Mr. Allen. Not particularly anti-Jewish; as I understood, and
have always understood the objectives of the Silver Shirts, it was,
a? I said, then to rid the Government of communistic Jews.
Mr. Whitley. Did the Silver Shirt organization advocate any
form of Fascist or Nazi government, or any radical change in our
form of government, the republican form of government?
Mr. Allen. That is something that is going to be rather difficult
for me to answer, because personally I have never been able to dis-
cover just what was meant by the term "fascist" in this country, nor
by the term "nazi" in this country.
Mr. Whitley. What would be your interpretation of the fascist or
the nazi form of government, Mr. Allen? We will approach it from
your own viewpoint.
3976 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. All that I know, of course, is what I read in the papers
as to what fascism or nazi-ism is in Europe, and I can only say that
any knowledge I have of the Fascist government or the Nazi gov-
ernment is what I see is going on in Europe.
Mr. Whitley. They are both dictatorships?
Mr. Allen. Entirely dictatorships, I would say.
Mr. Whitley. With all personal rights subjugated to the rights
of the state as such?
Mr. Allen. If you are to believe what is in the newspapers, I
presume so; but I do not believe a lot of it.
Mr. Whitley. At the time of your meeting with Mr. William Dud-
ley Pelley, of Asheville, N. C, who is the head of the Silver Shirts, in
Los Angeles, in 1935
Mr. Allen. Yes ; I think it was in 1935.
Mr. Whitley. What was the occasion of that meeting? Did you
seek him out?
Mr. Allen. No; I was just introduced to him as many others were
that evening, when he spoke.
Mr. Whitley. At a meeting of the Silver Shirts, he was out there?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. At a meeting of his organization, in behalf of his
organization ?
Mr. Allen. He was the principal speaker.
Mr. Whitley. Approximately how many members of the Silver
Shirt organization were there in that section at that time, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. That is something I could not possibly state, because I
have asked the same question a number of times but never received an
answer that really meant anything.
Mr. Whitley. Did they have a large membership; about the meet-
ings, were they well attended ?
] Mr. Allen. I can say that the meetings of this Metropolitan Post,
'of which I was at that time a member, were held once and sometimes
twice a week at the Walker Auditorium, and they were attended. I
would say, by some 1,500 — in other words, the capacity of the audi-
torium would be about 1.500.
Mr. Whitley. That was just one group?
Mr. Allen. That was that group.
Mr. Whitley. There were numerous other groups in southern Cali-
fornia ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Where did this meeting take place at which you met
Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Allen. That is the one I speak of.
Mr. Whitley. At the Walker Auditorium ?
Mr. Allen. No; at the German-American Bund.
Mr. Whitley. At the German House?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. )[
Mr. Whitley. Was the meeting there a Friends of New Germany
meeting, or a Silver Shirt meeting?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; it was essentially and only a Silver Shirt meet-
ing. The auditorium was rented from the German-American Bund
for the purpose of a Silver Shirt meeting.
Mr. Whitley. Did they in any way assist in making plans for that
meeting, or cooperate in that meeting?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3977
Mr. Allen. In no way.
Mr. Whitley. It was just purely a business proposition when the
auditorium was rented?
Mr. Allen. The only one that was available to that type of meeting.
Mr. Whitley. Did von have any personal conversation with Mr.
Pelley?
Mr. Allen. No; just a few words of greeting.
Mr. Whitley. Did you get the impression from his speech at that
time, or had you got the impression from his writings that he was
anti-Jewish?
Mr. Allen. Well, the flavor of his speech, as I recall it, was essen-
tially the fact that you could not talk about communism without
talking about Jews; that if you did not talk about Jews you were re-
moving the substance and essence of communism.
Mr. Whitley. He did not approach it, or attack communism as
such ; he attacked it through the Jews ?
Mr. Allen. No; he attacked communism very definitely, as such,
and then he went on to describe the identity of the Jews behind it.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever hear Mr. Pelley express admiration
for the Nazi form of government, or any so-called Fascist form of
government ?
Mr. Allen. I cannot say that I have ever heard him express any
admiration for them.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever hear him express agreement with that
form of government?
Mr. Allen. Only, insofar as I recall, in one part of his speech,
insofar as that Mr. Hitler has been successful in ridding the German
nation of Jews from the government.
Mr. Whitley. And insofar as that part of Mr. Hitler's program /
was concerned, Mr. Pelley was in accord with it?
Mr. Allen. He apparently was.
Mr. Whitley. Following that time, about 1935 — up until that time
you said you had not been active there, insofar as making speeches
or writing articles was concerned?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. During that period were you following your pro-
fession as an engineer ?
Mr. Allen. No ; I was unemployed a great deal of that time.
Air. Whitley. Did you ever become an active member of the Silver
Shirts?
Mr. Allen. Not of the Silver Shirts ; no, sir.
Mr. Whitley. How long did you remain in the Silver Shirt organi-
zation?
Mr. Allen. Well, I lost contact with it, or rather, when the Dick-
stein Committee ; the Dickstein Committee, as I recall, had their in-
vestigation in Los Angeles in 1935, or along in there some time.
Mr. Whitley. In 1934, 1 believe.
The Chairman. That is the McCormack Committee.
Mr. Allen. At any rate when that investigation took place in Los
Angeles the meetings were stopped, and there were no more meetings,
and everyone seemed to more or less withdraw.
Mr. Thomas. I think we ought to clear up that point. The witness
,j]iat said the Dickstein Committee, and I am not sure just what he means.
Mr. Whitley. You mean the McCormack Committee ?
3978 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. No ; I mean the Dickstein Investigating Committee.
The Chairman. That committee was headed by Mr. McCormackJ
of Massachusetts, but Mr. Dickstein was a member of it.
Mr. Allen. I probably referred to it as being the Dickstein Com-
mittee because that was what we thought, only of the name Dickstein,
but possibly it was the McCormack committee; I do not know.
Mr. Whitley. So it was at about the time of those hearings in
Los Angeles that the membership of the Silver Shirts dissolved, or
they stopped their activities?
Mr. Allen. They seemed to stop all their activities at that time.
Mr. Whitley. Stopped holding meetings?
Mr. Allen. Yes; there were no more regular meetings held.
Mr. Whitley. Did you formally resign from the organization, or
just drop out?
Mr. Allen. I just dropped out.
Mr. Whitley. Prior to that time you had been a dues-paying
member ?
Mr. Allen. I never paid any dues.
Mr. Whitley. Did you purchase some of the literature of the
Silver Shirts put out by Mr. Pelley ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever read copies of liis publication called
Liberation ?
Mr. Allen. I have read that.
Mr. Whitley. Is it not a fact, Mr. Allen, that in his publication
he has supported the Nazi Government, Mr. Hitler, and the German-
American Bund? Have you seen articles of that type in Liberation?
Mr. Allen. I do not know that I have ever seen any articles that
would lead me to believe he supported the Nazi Government in Ger-
many. That would not be my interpretation of it.
Mr. Whitley. The reference, as you recall, was as to his approval
of the manner in which Hitler had handled the Jewish situation?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether, Mr. Allen, the membership
of the Silver Shirt organization in Los Angeles overlaps with that
of the German-American Bund, or its predecessor, the Friends of New
Germany? In other words, are some members of the Silver Shirts
members of the bund or its predecessor ?
Mr. Allen. I know a great many of the members of the Silver
Shirts, but I do not know that an}7 one in my acquaintance is a
member of the German-American Bund.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know that of your own knowledge?
Mr. Allen. No ; not of my own knowledge.
Mr. Whitley. You stated, I believe, that there was no cooperation
between the bund and the Silver Shirts, that the bund had a hall to
rent, and sometimes you rented the hall from them?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Whitley, let us understand the witness clearly.
We want to be fair to the witness. Is the witness answering that
there was not any cooperation, or that while he was there he did
not see any cooperation?
Mr. Allen. That is right,
Mr. Whitley. To your knowledge, there was no cooperation?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
3979
Mr.
Mr.
Air.
Mr.
Mr. Am. in. To my knowledge, there was no cooperation; that it,
no exchange of membership.
The Chairman. Did the witness state. Mr. Whitley, that members
of the Silver Shirts did visit the bund and bund members would be
present at Silver Shirts meetings ( Was that clarified ?
Mr. Whitley. He stated, to his knowledge, there was no overlap-
ping in membership.
Mr. Allen. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. Did they exchange literature?
Allen. Yes. .
Whitley. Or attend each other's meetings? '
Allen. Yes. sir.
Whitley. In other words, bund members would attend Silver
Shirt meetings \
Mr. Allen. I have seen, them ; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And Silver Shirt members, to your knowledge, at-
tended bund meetings?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Was Silver Shirt literature sold at bund meetings?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. It was sold?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That is, Mr. Pelley's literature?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. To your knowledge, was the literature of any other
group or organization sold at bund meetings?
Mr. Allen. As a rule, at all bund meetings which I have attended,
or any of the Silver Shirt meetings which I have attended, all
literature of the recognized groups combating Jewish communism
were on sale.
The Chairman. Mr. Whitley, did you clarify why the witness
quit the Silver Shirts?
Mr. Whitley. He said that, following the hearings of the Mc-
Cormack committee on the west coast, they became inactive.
The Chairman. I know, but with reference to himself, why did
this witness, who apparently still believes in the fundamental prin-
ciples of the Silver Shirts, quit the organization?
Mr. Whitley. I believe, Air. Chairman, he stated he did not quit,
but the organization for the time being became inactive and he just
dropped out; he never formally withdrew.
Air. Allen. In other words, there was no activity.
Air. Whitley. There was no activit}^?
Mr. Allen. There was no activity.
Air. Whitley. You did not drop out because you disapproved the
principles of the Silver Shirts?
Air. Allen. No, sir.
Air. Whitney. And you did not drop out because of any differ-
ences with them '.
Air. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. The organization temporarily became inactive ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And you dropped out and did not resume any active
affiliation?
3980 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. That is correct.
Mr. "Whitley. When was that, approximately; what date did you
become inactive?
Mr. Allen. I think that was late in 1935 or the early fall.
Mr. Whitley. That was still before the German-American Bund
had replaced the predecessor organization, the Friends of New Ger-
many ?
Mr. Allen. Well, I do not recall that date, but I think it was alon^
in that time; I would say so; jTes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You mentioned a moment ago that members of thb
recognized groups attended each other's meetings and exchanged liter-
ature or sold each other's literature?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Will you name for the record, Mr. Allen, those recog-
nized groups that were — I presume you mean the recognized groups
that were following the same general principles as Mr. Pelley's organ-
ization ?
Mr. Allen. More or less ; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Will you name those groups or individuals who were
connected with them?
Mr. Allex. I do not know; they were just individuals. I do not
know that I recall their names nor who they were at that time. It is a
number of years ago. The principal exchange that Mas made, or prin-
cipally the literature that we had there was mostly from either Pelley's
organization or the German-American Bund. And there were other
pamphlets that were written by one man or another in any part of the
country that had come to the notice of anybody, and that would be put
on sale there.
Mr. Whitley. How about Mr. Gerald Winrod, of Kansas; was any
of his literature or any of his publications on sale?
Mr. Allext. I think possibly there were some copies of the Defender Jir
there at different times, but not regularly. )[,
Mr. Whitley. Did you have material at those meetings, either
Silver Shirt meetings or meetings of the Friends of New Germany, that
had come directly from German sources, such as editions put out by
World Service?
Mr. Allen. There were copies of World Service.
Mr. Whitley. Or the Fichte Bund ?
Mr. Allex. I do not recall that, but there were copies for free dis-
tribution of World Service lying around.
Mr. Whitley. Any of Mr. Julius Streicher's literature?
Mr. Allen. There may have been.
Mr. Whitley. Julius Stunner?
Mr. Allen. I do not recall; there may have been. The World
Service I recall.
Mr. Whitley. You recall that ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And you recall that there was other literature of a
German source at those meetings?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir
Mr. Whitley. Either being sold or being distributed free of charge?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Will you follow that up and name these other
organizations?
ILV"
Mr,
Contro
Mr.,
Mr.
Mr. A
llr.fl
Mr. A
Mr,
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3981
Mr. Whitley. Yes; I am going to do that, Mr. Chairman.
What other members of organizations or groups of organizations
do you consider were the leading groups, as you referred to them a
moment ago, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. You mean as of that year?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. In existence at that time?
Mr. Whitley. Yes. You mentioned Mr. Pelley and the bund. I
mentioned Mi'. Winrod and you said that he was considered one of
the leaders in that field ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Ask the witness specific questions about certain
ones.
Mr. Whitley. How about Mr. George Deatherage, of St. Albans,
W. Va.?
Mr. Allex. I did not know Mr. George Deatherage, had never
heard of him at that time.
Mr. Whitley. You had not heard of him at that time?
Mr. Allen. Not at that time; no, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Y^ou have since heard of him?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And have had dealings with him?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you know of Mr. James True at that time?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Have you seen copies of his Industrial Control Re-
ports ?
Mr. Allen. I had.
Mr. Whitley. Have you seen copies of those reports for distribu-
tion at German bund meetings?
Mr. Allen. Xo, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Have you seen them at Silver Shirt meetings?
Mr. Allen. I do not recall that I ever saw any for distribution at
any of the Silver Shirt meetings.
Mr. Whitley. Did you personally receive copies of the Industrial
Control Reports?
Mr. Allen. I did through friends; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Now, I mention Robert Edmondson.
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. He was considered one of the leaders?
Mr. Allen. Y"es. sir.
Mr. Whitley. Of the group who were in that movement at that
time?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Any others that you recall at the moment?
The Chairman. Y^ou did not clarify that with reference to Mr.
Edmondson. Did they have Mr. Edmondson's literature there?
,0f| Mr. Whitley. Was Mr. Edmondson's literature present for distri-
bution at the meetings ?
Mr. Allen. I do not recall ever having seen any of that literature;
neither Mr. Edmondson's or Mr. True's for distribution at those
meetings.
Mr. Whitley. You do not recall having seen it there ?
Mr. Allen. That is correct.
3982 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Was Mr. Frank Clark, of Takoma-
Mr. Allen. At that time we had not heard of him at all.
Mr. Whitley. You had not heard of him at that time ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Not at that time ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Have you subsequently heard of him ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And do you now consider him active in that move-
ment ?
Mr. Allen. I do not know a thing in the world about the man.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know a thing about him I
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Never met him ?
Mr. Allen. Never.
Mr. Whitley. Have you seen or distributed any of his literature?
Mr. Allen. Never.
Mr. Whitley. What other individuals or groups were considered
among the leaders at that time? Mr. Allen, I am now referring to
the period when you were in the Silver Shirts; that is, 1933 to 1935,
approximately.
Mr. Allen. Exactly. At that time the only organization as such
that I was at all interested in was the Silver Shirts.
Mr. Whitley. Was there any literature of the Ku Klux Klan avail-
able at either Silver Shirt or bund meetings ?
Mr. Allen. Never saw any of it.
Mr. Whitley. How about the Italian groups, Italian fascist groups
of organizations?
Mr. Allen. Those had never come into the picture at that time.
Mr. Whitley. Not at that time ?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. They have since. You have been in contact with
them since, and we will get to that later, but we are now talking of
the period that you have mentioned.
Mr. Allen. Up to the early fall of 1935.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. How about the White Russians, so-called White
Russian organizations; did you have any contact with them during
that period?
Mr. Allen. I believe I recall having been introduced to a few of
the so-called White Russians in that area about that time ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. About that time? \
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether they cooperated at any of the
meetings of the Silver Shirts or of the bund ?
Mr. Allen. Only as a part of the audience; that was all.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, for the sake of brevity, I am refer-
ring here to the German organizations as the bund. As a matter of
fact, during that period it was the Friends of New Germany, but at
that time the same leader was at the head of that organization that
the bund has now on the west coast, Mr. Herman Schwinn.
\
ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3983
The Chairman. I believe you have a list of the organizations
there. I would suggest that you go through the list and ask him
specifically concerning the literature of those organizations.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, I had not contemplated doing that
right now for this reason. At the moment we are discussing the
period up to 1935. He had not had contact with a lot of organiza-
tions then that subsequently he has contacted.
The Chairman. We are anxious to know every organization that
had literature made available at the Silver Shirt meetings at that
time.
Mr. Whitley. I can run over the list now and later on he can,
identify these organizations.
The 'Chairman. That is between 1933 and 1934 you are dealing
with?
Mr. Whitley. 1933 and 1935.
The Chairman. Very well.
Mr. Whitley. Were 'you at that time, Mr. Allen, acquainted with
any officials or leaders of the Mexican Gold Shirt organization? I
am referring again to the period 1933 to 1935.
Mr. Allen. No : not at that time.
Mr. Whitley. Later on you did become acquainted with some of
those leaders?
Mr. Allen. I became acquainted with one or two who said they
were ; I do not know whether they were or not.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, so far as you know, there was no
question of cooperation at that time, during that period, between
the Silver Shirts or the bund, and the Gold Shirts?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Were you acquainted during that period with Mrs.
Leslie Fry?
Mr. Allen. Not at that time.
Mr. Whitley. Or Mrs. W. K. Jewett?
Mr. Allen. Not at that time; no, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did Mr. Beamish, of South Africa, send any liter-
ature to the Silver Shirts or the bund during that period?
Mr. Allen. He never sent any to me and I do not think that
Captain Beamish had sent any literature from South Africa at that
time.
Mr. Whitley. You had no contact with airy literature from the
KuKluxKlan?
Mr. Allen. None whatever.
Mr. Whitley. That is, Mr. Hiram Evans ; what about Mr. William
Kullgren, of Atascadero, Calif.? Were you acquainted with him
during that period?
of the Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. He is the publisher of the Beacon Light?
Mr. Allen. I believe so.
Mr. Whitley. That is his publication?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Martin Luther Thomas, of the Christian
American Crusader, were you acquainted with him?
Mr. Allen. I know about Mr. Thomas, but the Christian Cru-
sader. I do not think was in existence at that particular time.
3984 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Was Mr. Thomas cooperating in any way with the
Silver Shirts or with the bund during that period ?
Mr. Allen. We had talked several times with Mr. Martin Luther
Thomas, and. as I recall the conversations, it looked as though he was
very sympathetic to the same cause that we were fighting.
Mr. Whitley. Had he attended meetings?
Mr. Allen. I believe he did on several occasions.
Mr. Whitley. Meetings of the Silver Shirts or of the bund, also?
Mr. Allen. I do not think he ever attended any meetings of the
bund; he may have: I do not know as to that. But I think he did
attend meetings of the Silver Shirts, one or two meetings of the
Silver Shirts.
Mr. Whitley. Did he ever participate in a Silver Shirt meeting
as a speaker?
Mr. Allen. No. sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. Whitley. Did any of the officials of the German-American
Bund during that period speak at Silver Shirt meetings?
Mr. Allen. I could not say as to that positively.
Mr. Whitley. Possibly they did?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did any of the members or officials of the Silver
Shirts speak at bund meetings?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you during that period at any time appear as
a sneaker?
Mr. Allen. Not at that time.
Mr. Whitley. Not at that time?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. But some other members of the Silver Shirts did?
Mr. Allen. I think that there were some: I cannot say positively.
Mr. Whitley. You did subsequently speak before the bund \
Mr. Allen. I have subsequently.
Mi-. Whitley. We will get to that a little later, when we complete
the period that we are now on. You do not recall any other groups
of organizations at that particular time that were cooperating or
collaborating with the Silver Shirts or the bund in Los Angeles?
Mr. Allen. I do not think I recall anv others.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact. Mr. Allen, that period repre-
sented more or less your initiation into those groups and organiza-
tions; your 'acquaintanceship was not nearly as wide as it became
subsequently; is not that a fact?
Mr. Allen. That is quite true.
Mr. Whitley. You had gone into the movement actively, and a
great many individuals and organizations whom you later knew and
cooperated with were unknown to you at that time?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; that is quite true.
Mi-. Whitley. And if they were in existence or were active at
that time, you did not know it?
Mr. Allen. That is quite true.
Mr. Whitley. After you got out of the Silver Shirt movement,
or after it died down and yon dropped out. did you continue activi-
ties of a similar nature either as an individual or with any other
group or organization?
Mr. Allen. Not with any organization.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3985
Mr. Whitley. Not with any organization?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Have you since you chopped out of the Silver Shirts
ever been affiliated with or identified with any other organization of
a similar nature?
Mr. Allen. None.
Mr. Whitley. You have not?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you not have an organization of your own
known as the American White Guard?
Mr. Allen. I might qualify my answer, yes. The American White
Guard was the outcome of the folding up, if you want to call it that,
of the Silver Shirts at that time in the Los Angeles area. In other
words, at the time of the Dickstein committee, after that investiga-
tion took place
Mr. AYhitley. You mean of the McCormack committee?
Mr. Allen. Of the McCormack committee; several of us felt that
we wanted to carry on with the same objectives and that was the
reason the White Guard was formed.
Mr. Whitley. Who were the officials of the Silver Shirts in Los
Angeles at the time you were an active member there; that is, from
1933 to 1935, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. I have already named Eugene Case.
Mr. Whitley. Who were the others?
Mr. Allen. There was a young man in the office there named Mark
White.
Mr. Whitley. Mark White?
Mr. Allen. Mark White, who was the secretary of the post. There
were one or two others whose names I do not recall for the moment,
but they were not important,
Mr. Whitley. Was Mr. Kenneth Alexander active in the Silver
Shirt movement at that time?
Mr. Allen. I had never heard of him or met him.
Mr. Whitley. You say you had at that time?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And subsequently ?
Mr. Allen. I have subsequently, but not at that time.
Mr. W'hitley. We are still talking about this Silver Shirt period.
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. When the Silver Shirt groups became inactive
The Chairman. Would it disrupt your line of questioning, Mr.
Whitley, to ask this? You keep talking about the Silver Shirts
being inactive. As a matter of fact, the witness is not maintaining
that they are not active now in the United States; is he?
Mr. Whitley. No; he is not.
The Chairman. They have since been revived?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. We are just talking about that little period there.
The Chairman. I just wanted to clarify the point. Proceed.
Mr. Whitley. When you say "they became inactive," you mean
just temporarily?
Mr. Allen. Temporarily so; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. They later were revived and are still active and
flourishing today?
3986 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. I presume they are ; I am not a member of it.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, they did not die completely at that
time ; they just quieted down for awhile ?
Mr. Allen. I think that is a better way to put it.
The Chairman. Right in that connection, he says they quieted down
for a while. Is it not a fact that they became a secret organization
after that period?
Mr. Whitley. Their activities became more sub rosa.
Mr. Allen. More secretive.
Mr. Whitley. Or underground. They took more pains to conceal
their membership.
Mr. Allen. There were no more meetings.
Mr. Whitley. There were no more public meetings ?
Mr. Allen. There were no more public meetings.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, during the period you were an
active member of the Silver Shirts, did not they hold their meetings
under another name? Instead of sending out an announcement that
the Silver Shirts would have a meeting at such and such a time, did
not they send out an announcement that an organization, under some
other name, would have a meeting?
Mr. Allen. That may have been done, and if it was done — because
I have heard that discussed — it was done because the auditoriums,
most of the auditoriums in the metropolitan area of Los Angeles are
owned or controlled by Jews and when we advertised or caused it to
be known that we were going to hold a Silver Shirt meeting, as such,
we found that the auditorium was not available. A number of times
a false name was used for the purpose of getting our people together,
and it became known to the Jews that in reality it was a Silver Shirt
meeting for the purpose of discussing and combating communism,
and the meeting was then canceled.
Mr. Whitley. You stated that the meeting was canceled or the use
of the auditorium was canceled.
Mr. Allen. The use of the auditorium.
Mr. Whitley. Because you were going to discuss communism. As
a matter of fact, it was because you were going to discuss the Jews;
is it not ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; it was because we were going to discuss Jewish
communism.
The Chairman. I do not mean to interrupt, but you do not
mean to imply that all Communists are Jews, do you?
Mr. Allen. Not for a moment; nor that all Jews are Communists.
Mr. Voorhis. May I ask a question? Surely. Mr. Allen does not
mean to imply that speakers against communism could not get halls
in Los Angeles. I live in that country and I know perfectly well
that plenty of meetings against communism are held there.
Mr. Allen. Yes ; I know that, too.
Mr. Voorhis. I cannot understand your statement, then.
Mr. Allen. I live there, and have lived there for many years, but
any time that any of the groups who were combating communism,
with its Jewish identity, tried to get a hall in Los Angeles, you just
could not get one.
Mr. Voorhis. In other words, the point is, just as Mr. Whitley
made it awhile ago, the reason you could not get the hall was not
because you were combating communism but for this other reason.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3987
Mr. Alien. The reason we could not get the hall was because we
were telling the truth, and we were identifying those who were
behind communism.
Mr. Voorhis. You could have had plenty of halls to make speeches.
Mr. Allen. Just as we can gel halls if we do not refer to Jews.
But the moment we tell the truth and we identify Jews with com-
munism, we do not get a hall.
Mr. Voorhis. How about the Walker Auditorium; you did not
have any trouble getting it, apparently?
Mr. Allen. The Walker Auditorium was gotten in the early stages
| of this tight.
Mr. Voorhis. But at that same time that you were getting the
Walker Auditorium you say that you had to hold your meetings in
the German House because you could not get any other hall.
Mr. Allen. But the Walker Auditorium was only available on
certain nights.
The Chairman. Let us proceed.
Mr. Whitley. After you became inactive in the Silver Shirts, you
and some of the other members or officials of the Silver Shirts set
up an organization known as the American White Guard; is that
right ?
Mr. Allen. Yes. That was a small organization.
Mr. Whitley. And were the purposes and objectives of the Ameri-
can White Guard substantially the same as the purposes and objec-
tives of the Silver Shirts?
Mr. Allen. The same objectives; yes.
Mr. Whitley. How long was that organization in existence, Mr.
Allen?
Mr. Allen. A very short time, because »
Mr. Whitley. A very short time '.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Who were the officials of that organization?
Mr. Allen. The men who formed it were Colonel McCord, Major
Fowler, Captain Case was one
Mr. Whitley. Will you identify those men for us, if you can;
can you give us their full names?
Mr. Allen. I could not, because I do not recall.
Mr. Whitley. Were they all Los Angeles men?
Mr. Allen. They were all Los Angeles men; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Can you name any others?
Mr. Allen. And Dr. Lackey.
Mr. Whitley. They were the organizers?
Mr. Allen. And myself. We were the organizers of it.
Mr. Whitley. Who were the officers?
Mr. Allen. That was all there was to the organization.
Mr. Whitley. Who was the head of the organization?
Mr. Allen. Colonel McCord.
Mr. Whitley. Colonel McCord was the head of it ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What type of activity did that organization engage
in?
Mr. Allen. Combating of Jewish communism.
Mr. Whitley. Did they have meetings? Did they make speeches?
3988 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. We had meetings. We had one meeting in j \Ir,A
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Patriotic Hall addressed by Red Hines, who was the head of the "red"
squad of the police department of Los Angeles.
The Chairman. Did he not say that they took over the work of the
Silver Shirts?
Mr. Whitley. He said their purposes and objectives were the same.
Mr. Allen. We did not take over the work of the Silver Shirts; no. Mr, A
Mr. Whitley. It was just an organization to carry on. I Hr.fl
The Chairman. In the same manner ? I groups,
Mr. Whitley. Where they left off. f Mi. A
Mr. Alien. In the same manner; yes. ■ doing
The Chairman. Proceed. JlrJ
Mr. Whitley. You mentioned Colonel McCord. Is he an Army I chairma
man?
Mr. Allen. He was an Army man.
Mr. Whitley. Active?
Mr. Allen. Reserve officer.
Mr. Whitley. He was a Reserve officer?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And I believe you mentioned some other official with
a service title?
Mr. Allen. Major Fowler.
Mr. Whitley. Is he an Army man ?
Mr. Allen. I could not say as to his standing.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether he is a Reserve officer or
not?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. How long did the organization, the American White
Guard, continue in existence?
Mr. Allen. Oh, for several months.
Mr. Whitley. Several months?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did it attempt to build up a membership?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. In that part of the country, either locally or on a
national scale? I ][r ^
Mr. Allen. No ; just locally. ljl;lt ,
Mr. Whitley. Just locally ?
Mr. Allen. That is all. i;-
Mr. Whitley. Did it have any success in that respect ? jjr j
Mr. Allen. We seemed to be quite successful ; yes, sir. )j ^
Mr. Whitley. What was the reason for disbanding the organization }\r
or discontinuing it ? \j,
Mr. Allen. Well, there were several reasons. Colonel McCord
passed on and Dr. Lackey lost the sight of both of his eyes. We just
simply felt that we would just disband.
The Chairman. Can you get the witness to give the first names of
these people?
Mr. Whitley. He said he did not recall, Mr. Chairman.
Following the discontinuance or dissolution of the American White
Guard organization, what was the nature of your activities along this
line subsequent to that time, Mr. Allen? Did you become identified jjr ',
with any other organization? jj."
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Mr.W
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UN-AM UK ICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3Qg9
Mr. Allen. None whatever; no. sir.
Mr. Whitley. Have you at any time since the American White
Guard became inactive become affiliated with or a member of any
group \
Mr. Allen. No group as such.
Mr. Whitley. No organization as such?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. You have worked independently with many of the
groups, h<>\\ ever '.
Mr. Allen. I have worked with all the groups that I felt were
doing the job of fighting against Jewish communism.
Mr. Whitley. We will get to the groups named a little later, Mr.
Chairman.
You have worked as an independent in that field?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You have cooperated with all of them, however,
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. Since that time; but as an independent and not as
a member of the organization i
Mr. Allen. I worked with all but joined none.
Mr. Whitley. Did you, Mr. Allen, take part in a convention which
was held in Los Angeles known as the anti-Communist convention?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. When was that convention held?
Mr. Allen. That was held, if I recall, on the 6th, 7th, and 8th of
August a year ago.
Mr. Whitley. Will you explain whose idea the convention was and
the purpose of the convention, for the record?
Mr. Allen. The idea of the convention — I do not know as to whose
personal idea it was ; it was talked over by a number ; Mrs. Fry ; Mr.
Chapman, who was at that time in Glendale.
Mr. Whitley. Will you identify Mrs. Fry for us?
Mr. Allen. Mrs. Leslie Fry, otherwise known as Mrs. De Shish-
mareff.
Mr. Whitley. When did you first become associated with her?
Mr. Allen. The first time I met Mrs. Fry was in the fall of 1936.
That was just merely a casual meeting, howTever. I only became
associated with her and the work that she was doing in the fall
of 1937.
Mr. Whitley. A year later?
Mr. Allen. A year later.
Mr. Whitley. Actively associated with her?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. What was the work that she was doing?
Mr. Allen. She appeared to be carrying on the campaign against
Jews and Communists in government.
Mr. Whitley. Was she carrying on that campaign through some
organization or did she have her own organization?
Mr. Allen. She had what she told me was an organization called
the Militant Christian Patriots. -
Mr. Whitley. And did that organization have a publication?
Mr. Allen. Yes. The organ was called the Christian Free Press.
Mr. Whitley. And was she the leader of that organization, and
was she the publisher of that paper?
94931— 39— vol. 6 19
3990 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. She was the publisher of the paper and the editor
of it. She stated that she was at the head of the Militant Christian
Patriots.
Mr. Whitley. Is she the same Mrs. Fry who wrote the book
Waters Flowing Eastward?
Mr. Allen. She claims to have written the book.
Mr. Whitley. She was one of the individuals who conceived this
so-called anti-Communist convention which was held in Los Angeles
during 1938?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. '
Mr. Whitley. I believe you said about a year ago.
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; a year ago.
Mr. Whitley. Who were the others who planned and helped to
organize this convention?
Mr. Allen. Mrs. Jewett.
Mr. Whitley. Mrs. W. H. Jewett?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Of Pasadena, Calif.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Will you identify her for the record, Mr. Allen, and
who she was and the nature of her activities?
Mr. Allen. The only thing I can say is she appeared to be associ-
ated with Mrs. Fry.
Mr. Whitley. She appeared to be associated with Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Associated with her in the same type of work?
Mr. Allen. The same type of work.
Mr. Whitley. Was she associated in connection with Mrs. Fry's
organization or her publications?
Mr. Allen. I am told so.
Mr. Whitley. In what capacity?
Mr. Allen. Well, that I couldn't say.
Mr. Whitley. Did she assist in writing articles or did she finance
Mrs. Fry's activities?
The Chairman. If you know?
Mr. Whitley. If you know.
The Chairman. Don't testify about anything you do not know.
Mr. Whitley. What you know personally.
Mr. Allen. Personally I do not know. )jr
Mr. Whitley. What her activities were?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. You do know they were closely associated? }jr
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. All right. Who else assisted in calling this conven-
tion, to organize this convention?
Mr. Allen. A Mr. Chapman, who is also associated with Mrs. Fry.
Mr. Whitley. What is his first name?
Mr. Allen. Conrad Chapman. </
Mr. Whitley Conrad Chapman?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. He is associated with Mrs. Fry in her work ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. In what capacity ; do you know ?
Mr. Allen. I could not say in what work he did associate with
her.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 39Q1
Mr. Whitley. Would you say he was actively associated with her?
Mr. Allen. Actively.
Mr. Whitley. Who else; who was the individual or group of in-
dividuals who were the moving spirits behind this convention?
Mr. Allen. Well, as far as I know the thing was originated in
Mrs. Fry's mind as being a good thing for that particular time.
Mr. Whitley. And how did she go about carrying out this idea;
did she send out invitations to individuals and groups to attend the
convention?
Mr. Allen. To individuals who were active in this work.
Mr. Whitley. What group?
Mr. Allen. The anticommunistic group.
Mr. Whitley. It was an anticommunistic convention?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was the purpose of this convention, Mr. Allen, to
set up or rather to consolidate into one organization all the various
groups that were invited to the convention?
Mr. Allen. I do not know that there was any specific purpose ex-
pressed as to that. The purpose was to call all of the representatives
who had really recognized representatives of anticommunistic work,
ant i- Jewish communistic work into that convention.
Mr. Wthitley. I see. And the purpose being to get them closer
together so they could cooperate more effectively?
Mr. Allen. That was the purpose.
Mr. Whitley. That was the purpose.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you do not recall that the specific purpose of
this convention was to unite all of the groups into one large organi-
zation ?
Mr. Allen. I do not know as to that ; I never heard that discussed.
Mr. Whitley. Who was invited; do you know what groups of
individuals were invited to attend that convention?
Mr. Allen. Well that would be a long list and I do not know that
I could state them off hand. Perhaps if you have a list
Mr. Whitley (interposing). If you will call off as many as you
can I will try to refresh your memory.
Mr. Allen. I did not issue the invitations myself. Mrs. Fry issued
the invitations and I really do not know who she sent them to.
Mr. Whitley. Was the convention confined
Mr. Allen (interposing). She issued the invitations and I do not
know who she sent them to.
Mr. Whitley. Was the convention confined to west coast indi-
viduals and organizations or was it Nation-wide?
Mr. Allen. Nation-wide.
Mr. Whitley. Nation-wide?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you do not know to what specific groups or
individuals her invitations were sent ?
Mr. Allen. No; I do not.
The Chairman. He said that before.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. Now what groups were represented at the
convention, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. Well, I do not know as to groups. I recall some of
the individuals, but just what the groups were
3992 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley (interposing). Would you name those and identify l
them? '
Mr. Allen. Well, I recall — I recall Mr. Alexander was present.
Mr. Whitley. Alexander? ''
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. He is leader of the Silver Shirts in Southern Cali- '"j";
f ornia at the present time ? :]
Mr. Allen. I understand so. •
Mr. Whitley. He was there "^
The Chairman. You say you understand so. What do you mean
by that ; do you know of your own knowledge ? | '
Mr. Allen. All I know is that it is stated, as a matter of common
knowledge, that he is, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Whitley. Has he ever suggested it to you ? Jj1,
Mr. Allen. Oh, yes. »■
Mr. Whitley. Then you know he is ?
Mr. Allen. Yes. of the
Mr. Whitley. You have every reason to believe he is? Mr.
Mr. Allen. Yes. ^
Mr. Whitley. He was supposed to represent Mr. Pel lev's organiza- Mr,
tion? Bund
Mr. Allen. He was there, but in just what capacity Mr,
Mr. Whitley (interposing). Who else was there, Mr. Allen? Mr-
Mr. Allen. Well, I don't know that I can remember the names of Mr,
many others. There was a Mr. Hudson Mr,
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Hudson of Omaha? Mr,
Mr. Allen. Yes. Mr,
Mr. Whitley. What is his first name ? Mr,
Mr. Allen. I do not know. Mr,
Mr. Whitley. Charles Hudson? Genua
Mi*. Allen. I think so. Mr.
Mr. Whitley. Charles B. Hudson? Mr.
Mr. Allen. I don't know. Mr,
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Charles Hudson of Omaha ? identi
Mr. Allen. Yes. Mr.
Mr. Whitley. Is he affiliated with any organization? Mr,
Mr. Allen. I think he has an organization ; yes. Mr,
Mr. Whitley. Is it America Awake? Mr
Mr. Allen. I think it is. Mr,
Mr. Whitley. Does he put out any publication? Mr,
Mr. Allen. Yes ; he puts out a publication. Mr.
Mr. Whitley. Is his organization America in Danger? presen
Mr. Allen. I am not sure the name of it. Mr,
Mr. Whitley. But he does put out a publication ? Mr.
Mr. Allen. Yes ; I have seen it. Mr
Mr. Whitley. You have read his publication? Mr.
Mr. Allen. Yes. A
Mr. Whitley. Who else was present?
Mr. Allen. Kullgren.
Mr. Whitley. What is his first name?
Mr. Allen. I think it is William.
Mr. Whitley. And what is his organization?
Mr. Allen. Well, he is editor of the Beacon Light. I don't know
that he has an organization.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3993
Mr. Whitley. And where is thai located?
Mr. Allen. At Atescadero, Calif.
Mr. AVhitley. That is William Kullgren?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. AVhitley. What other persons were present at this conven-
tion, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. Well, there were some persons from Kansas City, but
I don't recall their names; and some people from New York and
from Philadelphia, but I don't recall their names.
Mr. AVhitley. Mr. Edmondson?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. AVhitley. Mr. Deatherage?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. AAthitley. He wasn't there?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. AAthitley. AVas J. H. Peyton, of Beverley Hills, Calif., editor
of the American Ranger, present?
Mr. Allen. I think he was at one of the meetings; I think I saw
him around. I think he was there.
Mr. AAthitley. AA'as any representative of the German-American
Bund present?
Mr. Allen. There were.
Mr. AVhitley. There were?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. AVho was present from the bund?
Mr. Allen. I think Mr. Risse.
Mr. AAthitley. Anyone else?
Mr. Allen. Mr. Schwinn.
Mr. AAthitley. He is the leader of the far-west division of the
German- American Bund ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. AAthitley. Any other bund representative present?
Mr. Allen. There were several of the men there that I have seen
identified with the bund ; I don't know what their names were.
Mr. AAthitley. AAras Mr. James True present?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. AAthitley. At that meeting?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. AAthitley. And you said Mr. Deatherage was not there?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. AAthitley. AAras any representative of the Ku Klux Klan
present ?
Mr. Allen. Not that I know of.
Mr. AAthitley. AA'as Maj. Gen. George Van Horn Moseley present?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. AVhitley. AA'as Peter H. Stahrenberg, of the National Press
Association and the National American, present?
Mr. Allen. I don't know him.
Mr. AAthitley. AATas Frank AV. Clark, of Tacoma, Wash., present?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. AAthitley. Head of the National Liberty Party present.
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. AA'as AV. D. Pelley present?
Mr. Allen. No; he was not.
3994 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Mr. Martin L. Thomas, head
of the Christian American Crusade was present ?
Mr. Thomas. I think counsel ought to also have the witness tell
whether the individuals were identified with any organization.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. When I mention the head of an organiza-
tion that is what I had reference to.
Mr. Allen. I assumed that to be the purpose. To my knowledge
none of them represented organizations, of those I have named who
were present.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Was Maj. Frank Pease, editor of the Ameri-
can Defender, Coral Gables, Fla., present.
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Was Gerald B. Winrod, of Wichita, Kans., present?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Are any representatives of his organization?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Was Mr. George W. Christians, of the Crusader
White Shirts, present?
Mr. Allen. I don't know who he is.
Mr. Whitley (continuing). You had no correspondence with him?
Mr. Allen. I have received one or two letters but I don't know
who the gentleman is.
Mr. Whitley. Do you recall whether Edward J. Smythe, head of
the Protestant War Veterans of the United States, was present?
Mr. Allen. I don't know him.
Mr. Whitley. Do you recall any others who were there, or any
other organizations who were represented at the meeting?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall any others. There were a number of
people there, a lot of people, but I did not attend all meetings.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know the names and don't know all the
organizations that were represented, or whether they represented or-
ganizations or attended in their individual capacity?
Mr. Allen. I have no idea as to that.
Mr. Whitley. Now where was this convention held, Mr. Allen ?
Mr. Allen. Held in the German- American House.
Mr. Whitley. The German-American House?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. In Los Angeles?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. The headquarters of the German-American Bund?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Approximately how many delegates were at the
convention?
Mr. Allen. I believe it was said there was some 200.
Mr. Whitley. Something like 200?
Mr. Allen. 200.
Mr. Whitley. Attended this convention ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. What were they supposed to represent ?
Mr. Whttlev. Thev were all supposed to represent organizations?
Mr. Allen. No. I think thev came on invitations as individuals.
Mr. Whitley. Some were there in their individual capacity and
some to represent organizations?
Mr. Aij.en. Well, I think most of them were there as individuals.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3995
Mr. Whitley. Of course, as head of the Silver Shirts, Alexander
would represent the organization?
Mr. Allen. He represented his organization; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. But outside of that I don't know of any of the others
acting except as individuals.
Mr. Whitley. Was Fritz Kuhn, head of the German-American
Bund, present at that meeeting?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Was this convention called or the meeting held at
the instance of the German-American Bund leaders?
Mr. Allen. No ; we tried to get a meeting place, to find a hall down
town.
Mr. Whitley. But the bund worked with and cooperated actively
in the convention and made plans for it and worked the plans out?
Mr. Allen. No. We made it a strictly business proposition with
the bund for the rental of the hall.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. With the understanding that all swastikas would be
removed.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. And that there would be no uniforms seen and with no
German, Nazi atmosphere.
Mr. Whitley. It was just a business proposition, they had the hall
and you rented the hall.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And they had no other interest in the convention?
Mr. Allen. None whatever.
Mr. Whitley. Except to let you use the hall.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. They did not assist in making plans at all to call the
convention ?
Mr. Allen. No ; not that I know of.
Mr. Thomas. I would like to have the attorney develop some of the
names of some of the organizations that applied for the hall in regard
to this convention.
Mr. Whitley. All right; I will do that.
With reference to the statement you have just made, Mr. Allen,
that the bund had nothing to do with the convention ; that you rented
the hall from the bund on a strictly business-like basis, I want to read
to you a statement from your letter dated August 24, 1938, Pasadena,
Calif., addressed :
"Dear James." Does that mean James True ?
Mr. Allen. It might.
Mr. Whitley. Signed Henry Allen. On page two of that letter
it states as follows :
Only last night Mrs. Fry told ine, "who are you in the cause, Mr. Allen. You
are nothing."
I am nothing, although without taking any undue credit, I might say with
truth that the convention just held was the combined thought and originated
by Mr. Arno Risse of the German-American Bund and myself, and Ave worked
like dogs for its success.
Mr. Allen. That is quite true.
Mr. Whitley. That is not coupled with
3996 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman (interposing). Yon identify that as true, that you
did make that statement?
Mr. Whitley. Will you look at this letter
The Chairman (continuing). Did you make that statement?
Mr. Allen. I may have made the statement.
The Chairman. Is it true whether you made the statement in the
letter or not?
Mr. Allen. If it is in that letter I made it.
The Chairman. Is it true whether it is in the letter ?
Mr. Allen. I talked with Mr. Risse I think before that and we
both thought it would be a good idea to have the convention.
The Chairman. How does it happen that you now make the state-
ment, or previously made the. statement to the effect that Mrs. Fry
originated the convention ?
Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry had originally talked with me about having
a convention and I had a talk with Mr. Risse.
The Chairman. All right, proceed.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, according to this statement, Mr.
Allen
The Chairman. Arno Risse.
Mr. Whitley. I know Risse is assistant leader of the German-
American Bund.
The Chairman. How do you spell it?
Mr. Whitley. A-r-n-o R-i-s-s-e.
Mr. Allen. Correct.
Mr. Whitley. You now say that you and Mrs. Fry were primarily
responsible ?
Mr. Allen. We had a conversation and had talked over the matter
of plans for carrying out the convention.
The Chairman. Will you read that excerpt again so we can get
clearly just what is in that letter?
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
Only last night Mrs. Fry told me "Who are you in the cause, Mr. Allen.
You are nothing."
I am nothing, although without taking any undue credit I might say with
truth, that the convention just held was the combined thought and originated
by Mr. Arno Risse, of the German-American Bund and myself, and we worked
like dogs for its success.
The Chairman. Is that the truth?
Mr. Allen. That is true.
The Chairman. How do you reconcile this statement with the pre-
vious statement ? We are trying to get the truth.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. We are trying to find out what the facts were.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. How do you recognize this statement, which you
have identified here, with your previous statements that Mrs. Fry
originated the idea?
Mr. Allen. She was the one who first talked to me about having a
convention, before I discussed it with Mr. Risse.
The Chairman. Well, that is a matter for the committee anyway.
Mr. Whitley. Your statement in here, rather Mrs. Fry's statement,
as quoted by you, that Mrs. Fry told me "Who are you in the cause,
Mr. Allen?"
.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3997
What cause is she referring to; what was your understanding?
Mr. Allen. My understanding was the common fight we were all
making.
Mr. Whitley. The common fight you were all making?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And if Mr. Arno Risse helped to make the plans for
the convention and helped to make it a success, the interest of the
German-American Bund was more than just a passing business in-
terest in that they wanted to rent the hall for the convention?
Mr. Allen. Only insofar as the German-American Bund was mak-
ing the same fight that we were.
Mr. Whitley. In other words there was a similarity of interest?
Mr. Allen. I think there was quite a similarity of interest,
Mr. Whitley. And that of course brought about a closer contact?
Mr. Allen. Only insofar as Jewish communistic interests were con-
cerned.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. That is right.
Mr. Thomas. I would like to get a point clear.
The Chairman. Yes, Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Thomas. Was this just a convention against communism or with
regard to anti-Jewish Communists?
Mr. Allen. It was an anti-Jewish communistic convention, for the
purpose of
The Chairman. He just asked you what it was for; you have an-
n'y swered.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What type of literature was sold and distributed at
this convention, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. Oh. the usual literature on liberalism, the usual anti-
communistic literature, and Mrs. Fry's publication.
Mr. Whitley. Were there any publications from the World Sur-
vey \
Mr. Allen. I don't recall seeing any there.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Edmondson's publication?
Mr. Allen. Yes ; some of Mr. Edmondson's.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. James True's literature?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall having seen his there.
Mr. Whitley. Was there any literature there from Mr. Deatherage?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Either being sold or being distributed?
Mr. Allen. It was being distributed.
Mr. Whitley. Any literature from Mr. Winrod? Do you recall
seeing any literature of his being sold or distributed?
Mr. Allen. There was a great deal of literature, but I cannot say
positively whose it was.
The Chairman. In order to be fair with the witness, do you mean
to say that you do not know whether the World Service was being
distributed ?
Mr. Allen. No; I could not say.
The Chairman. Are you positive about that ?
Mr. Allen. Well, personsonally I did not see any; there may have
been some, of course.
3998 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Are you positive you did not see some of the
German-American Bund literature there?
Mr. Allen. Oh, I thnk so. There was a good deal of literature
there, but personally
The Chairman. You have answered the question.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Now, who were speakers at this convention, the
principle speakers, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. There was Dr. Rex Mitchell.
Mr. Whitley. Who is Dr. Rex Mitchell ?
Mr. Allen. He is a minister, a Baptist minister in Paso Robles,
Calif.
Mr. Whitley. And who were some of the other speakers?
Mr. Allen. Mrs. Jewett.
Mr. Whitley. Who else?
Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry spoke.
Mr. Whitley. Who was chairman of the convention ?
Mr. Allen. There were various chairmen.
Mr. Whitley. I see.
Mr. Allen. There was a different chairman at each session.
The Chairman. Who was Mitchell?
Mr. Allen. From Paso Robles.
The Chairman. Paso Robles, will you spell that?
Mr. Allen. P-a-s-o R-o-b-l-e-s.
Mr. Whitley. Did you address the convention, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. I did.
Mr. Whitley. What was the — who were some of the other speak-
ers? You have named three or four. Did Mr. Schwinn speak?
Mr. Allen. Oh, yes.
Mr. Whitley. Leader of the bund on the west coast ?
Mr. Allen. I think so.
Mr. Whitley. Did Mr. Arno Risse?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Both of them?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did any other representatives of the German-Ameri-
can Bund address the convention?
Mr. Allen. No ; I think there were only two.
Mr. Whitley. Do you recall any of the other speakers?
Mr. Allen. There was an Italian. I can't recall his name.
Mr. Whitley. I see. There were representatives of the Italian
group present?
Mr. Allen. This man was a representative of an Italian group.
Mr. Whitley. Do you recall the Italian group he represented?
Mr. Allen. No; I don't remember the name.
Mr. Whitley. Were there any representatives of a Russian group
there ?
Mr. Allen. I think there were several, yes; I think there were
several.
Mr. Whitley. Several representatives of Russian groups?
Mr. Allen. Of white Russians.
Mr. Whitley. Of various Russian groups?
Mr. Allen. Well, I don't know how many groups they represented;
there were several white Russians there.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3999
Mr. Whitley. Do you recall whether or not any representatives of
the Mexican Gold Shirts were there?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether any representatives of the
Mexican Gold Shirts were invited to attend the convention?
Mr. Allen. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Whitley. There may have been?
Mr. Allen. Well, I don't know that.
Mr. Whitley. You said a few minutes ago that Mrs. Fry sent out
the invitations.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you didn't know who all of them were ?
Mr. Allen. Well, she ask me if I knew any of the Gold Shirts that
she could send invitations to, and I told her that I did not.
Mr. Whitley. That you did not know any ?
Mr. Allen. Yes ; but none that she wanted to invite.
Mr. Whitley. You know- quite a few of them ?
Mr. Allen. I know two.
Mr. Whitley. You know twTo?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Getting back to the convention, you said there were
various persons presided. Will you name some of the others who
presided at the various sessions of the convention ?
Mr. Allen. Mrs. Jewett presided; Mr. Hudson presided; I pre-
sided. There were one or two others, but I don't recall who they were.
We had an Indian speaker there.
Mr. Whitley. What was the name of the Indian speaker?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall what it was.
Mr. Whitley. You don't recall ?
Mr. Allen. I have been trying to recall it, but I don't recall.
Mr. Whitley. Was he a representative from an Indian organi-
zation ?
Mr. Allen. No; he was just someone who wTas present.
Mr. Whitley. Just as an invitation ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was he Chief New Moon ?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know Chief New Moon ?
Mr. Allen. No ; never heard of him.
Mr. Whitley. Was he an Indian who has frequently appeared at
meetings or conventions of the German-American Bund ?
Mr. Allen. Oh, no.
Mr. Whitley. He was not ?
Mr. Allen. I know who you refer to but it wTas not he.
Mr. Whitley. It was not that party ?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. What was the outcome or the result of this convention
which lasted several days; did it work out a program?
Mr. Allen. No; the outcome of the convention was it passed on
certain resolutions.
Mr. Whitley. I see. And those resolutions dealt with the same
subjects that the individual organizations were interested in ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
4000 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Were any plans worked out with reference to settting
up one organization to include all these various groups?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. No such plan?
Mr. Allen. No such plan.
Mr. Whitley. This was called, however, an anticommunistic fed-
eration ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And federations usually contemplates taking in a
number of groups.
Mr. Allen. That is true.
Mr. Whitley. But there was no such activity contemplated ?
Mr. Allen. No; that had been discussed and talked of but it was
laid aside.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Will you name again for the record the exact
date or dates on which the convention was held ?
Mr. Allen. I think it was August 6, 7, and 8.
Mr. Whitley. 1938?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That is your best recollection ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. I judge. Mr. Allen, from your testimony that the
German-American bund was extremely active in planning, organizing,
and carrying out the convention; that it worked with you and Mrs.
Fry — you used its hall, and two of its principal speakers on the west
coast were speakers at the convention.
Mr. Allen. Well, insofar as that is concerned, they cooperated with
us the same as a number of other people did, and to that extent.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether the convention received any
telegrams from any individuals or organizations who were not rep-
resented at the convention ; do you recall ?
Mr. Allen. Well, not when I was present. I wasn't present at all
of the conventions, as I say.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Mr. Allen, when did you first become ac-
quainted with Mr. George Deatherage, of St. Albans, W. Va., head of
the Knights White Camellia and of the American Nationalist Con-
federation?
Mr. Allen. I believe it was in the fall, in October, I think it was,
1936—1937.
Mr. Whitley. 1937?
Mr. Allen. Yes; 1937.
Mr. Whitley. Had you prior to that time had any communication
with Mr. Deatherage or exchanged letters with him?
Mr. Allen. No; never.
Mr. Whitley. You had no contacts with him at all ?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Where did you meet Mr. Deatherage?
Mr. Allen. Just a moment. Before I met him I think I had
received one or two letters just prior to having met him.
Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of that correspondence?
Mr. Allen. Just nothing but short letters. I think he said that
he had hoped to meet me when he came to the coast the next time.
Mr. Whitley. And where was it that you met him in 1937 — 1937
3'ou said?
DN-AMERIGAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4001
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Where was that?
The Chairman. A little louder.
Mr. Allen. Yes. That was in Mrs. Fry's home.
Mr. Whitley. The home of Mrs. Fry in Pasadena?
Mr. Allen. In Glendale.
Mr. Whitley. Where?
Mr. Allen. Glendale. Calif.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. Wras he visiting in her home at that time?
Mr. Allen. Well, I think he was there — I think he had just come
there on business.
Mr. Whitley. He was visiting on the west coast?
Mr. Allen. Yes; he was visiting on the west coast; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know the purpose of his being out there;
did he discuss that with you?
Mr. Allen. No ; not with me. It was for the purpose of carrying
on the work on the west coast that we were interested in.
Mr. Whitley. Carrying on the work?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did you meet him by appointment or just by acci-
dent ?
Mr. Allen. No ; I met him by appointment.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. Who made the appointment?
/Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry.
Mr. Wthitley. Mrs. Fry made the appointment for you to meet
Mr. Deatherage?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And at that time you had a discussion about carry-
ing on the work on the west coast ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. The work of the various individuals and organi-
zations?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Who else was Deatherage in contact with on the
west coast during his visit?
Mr. Allen. He told me he had a talk with Mrs. Jewett.
The Chairman. Just a minute. It is now 12 o'clock. There is
one point, before we adjourn that I want to clarify in my own mind
and in the minds, perhaps, of some of the members.
There is one question, Mr. Allen; the purpose of this convention
was to get all of these groups together to work and cooperate in
your fight.
Mr. Allen. Well, I would say yes.
The Chairman. Would there be any other purpose ?
Mr. Allen. Well, that would be naturally the purpose of the con-
vention, that we wanted to work out the problem.
The Chairman. In other words, constitute what was known as an
anticommunistic federation ?
Mr. Allen. That was the purpose.
The Chairman. Was any leader discussed as qualified to lead the
general movement (
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. Wrere you ever able to get together on any leader?
Mr. Allen. No. A number of times those things were rather cas-
ually discussed but not seriously.
4002 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. You mean "seriously" that you could not get to-
gether on a leader ?
Mr. Allen. No ; there was no man seriously named as being avail-
able for a leader.
The Chairman. You mean there was no man who had the qualifi-
cations for leadership ?
Mr. Allen. That was the situation.
The Chairman. I see.
Mr. Whitley. Was General Moseley ever mentioned as a possible
leader ?
Mr. Allen. Never.
Mr. Whitley. Never?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he was invited to attend this
convention ?
Mr. Allen. I couldn't say.
Mr. Whitley. You couldn't say?
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. All right, we will take a recess at this time.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, some of the members of the committee
have some questions they would like to ask the witness.
The Chairman. There will be ample opportunity for each member
of the committee to do so.
Mr. Thomas. When will the opportunity be given ?
The Chairman. The witness will be on the stand for some time but
full opportunity will be given every member of the committee. I
was of the opinion that perhaps in the interest of orderly procedure
it would be much better if counsel conclude his examination first. Of
course, if questions relate to any matter which members of the com-
mittee wish to interrupt with questions that is perfectly all right.
Mr. Thomas. Might I ask a couple of questions in regard to the
convention ?
The Chairman. Yes; any question on the convention may be asked.
Proceed.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Allen, you have used the phrase "Jewish com-
munism" ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. Do you mean to infer that all Communists are Jews?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Thomas. It is not clear to me why you use that phrase "Jewish
communism"?
Mr. Allen. Because we feel that we know and there is enough
documentary evidence to show that the Jews are the originators, pro-
moters, financiers of communism, and agitators of it.
Mr. Thomas. Yes; but don't you know, also, that some of the lead-
ers of communism in this country today are not Jews ?
Mr. Allen. I know that, also.
Mr. Thomas. Then don't you think it is very wrong to pass this
reflection on the Jews by calling them, or referring to this phase
"Jewish communism" ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir. We know that the Jewish leaders are be-
hind communism.
The Chairman. You have answered the question. Now right at
that point — had you finished, Mr. Thomas?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4003
Mr. Thomas. Yes.
The Chairman. You say that the Jews originated communism;
you mean they started it in Russia?
Mr. Allen. Oh, no; we go away, far back on that.
The Chairman. I say do you mean they started it in Russia?
Mr. Allen. We know the Jews control the situation in Russia;
Ave know that, of course.
The Chairman. That is probably the reason Germany and Russia
are getting together right now?
Mr. Allen. I don't know. [Laughter.]
(The committee thereupon took a recess until 1:15 p. m.)
AFTER RECESS
The committee reconvened pursuant to the recess, Hon. Martin
Dies (chairman) presiding.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order, please. If
everyone will observe absolute quiet, we can hear the witness' testi-
mony ; but when a paper is being torn or there is the slightest move-
ment on the part of a number of people, it creates a general noise
throughout this room, and the acoustics are very bad here, anyway.
So I want to request everyone to be as quiet as possible.
Mr. Allen, will you talk just as loudly and as distinctly as possible,
please, sir?
Mr. Allen. I will, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Whitley.
TESTIMONY OF HENRY D. ALLEN— Resumed
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, just before adjournment, we were dis-
cussing your meeting with George Deatherage.
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Of Saint Albans, W. Va., and I believe you stated
Mr. Deatherage visited the west coast in the fall of 1938.
Mr. Allen. No; 1937.
-Mr. Whitley. 1937?
/Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And an appointment was made for him to meet you,
the appointment being made through Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. s
Mr. Whitley. And you met him at her home?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. What was the purpose of that meeting, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry asked me to meet with him in order to talk
over something — some plans which her group seemed to have for
the carrying on of the work in the Pacific coast area.
Mr. Whitley. And were those plans discussed between you and
Mrs. Fry and Mr. Deatherage?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. On the occasion of that meeting?
Mr. Allen. And Mr. Chapman.
Mr. Whitley. And Mr. Chapman was present? \
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Was anyone else present?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
4004 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. What were the plans which were discussed?
Mr. Allen. The plans, roughly, were for me to travel over the
west coast and conduct especially the Associated Farmers, and to
talk with them in regard to the campaign to be carried on at meet-
ings for the purpose — for educational purposes, and for the purpose
of identifying the real enemy, whom we considered the Jew, behind
communism.
Mr. Whitley. I see. At this meeting, you and Mrs. Fry and
George Deatherage discussed that plan whereby you more or less
were to go on a lecture tour of the west coast to present to the groups
you addressed the problem with which these various individuals and
organizations were concerning themselves?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And that group was to include, you say, in particu-
lar, the Associated Farmers?
Mr. Allen. Well, not in particular, but they were mentioned
among the others.
Mr. Whitley. Among the others who were to be contacted ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Who were to make the definite plans for that tour,
and who were to finance it?
Mr. Allen. The finances for that work were to come from Mr.
Chapman.
Mr. Whitley. From Mr. Chapman?
Mr. Allen. In other words, I was instructed by Mr. Deatherage to
receive my expense funds for that work from Mr. Chapman's hands.
Mr. Whitley. Now what did Mr. Deatherage have to do, spe-
cifically, with this plan which was more or less localized on the west
coast ? Was this tour being sponsored by any group ?
Mr. Allen. No other group than the one I mentioned.
Mr. Whitley. Just the three?
Mr. Allen. Well, I do not know whether any other personnel was
behind that group; I have no knowledge of that meeting, excepting
Mrs. Jewett's name was mentioned in that.
Mr. Whitley. On Mr. Deatherage's instructions, Mr. Chapman was
to pay your expenses ?
Mr. Allen. He told me to receive my expenses from Mr. Chapman.
Mr. Whitley. Was it apparent from the meeting there and the
conversation that this was Mr. Deatherage's idea, and he was helping,
at least, to promote it?
Mr. Allen. No; I rather gathered that the plans at that time dis-
cussed were the outcome of proceedings of a convention which was
held in Kansas City the summer previous, I believe.
Mr. Whitley. This was in the fall of 1937?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. And the convention was held in Kansas City in
August 1937, I believe ; is that correct ?
Mr. Allen. I think so. I think it was; I was not present.
Mr. Whitley. And you believe this plan which was made between
you and Mrs. Fry and Mr. Deatherage was in keeping with certain
plans which were made previously at this convention?
Mr. Allen. I believe so.
,spe-
» west
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4005
The Chaibman. Now, how dors tho witness know that? You are
talking now about "belief." Let us get down to whether this witness
is qualified to express any belief.
Mr. Whitley. Is your expression there based on conversations
Mr. Allen. Just on conversation and certain remarks that were
made that referred to the Kansas City convention.
Mr. Whitley. It is things that Mrs. Fry and Mr. Deatherage told
you, or statements they made in your presence \
Mr. Ai.i kx. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. That lead you to believe
Mr. Allen. My belief is based on those remarks.
Mr. Whitley. That this idea originated at the Kansas City con-
vention (
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Before we continue with your itinerary and the
results of this lecture tour, tell us about that Kansas City convention.
Mr. Allen. I was not present.
Mr. "Whitley. You were not present?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know of your own knowledge, or from state-
ments of those who were present, who sponsored that convention ?
Mr. Allen. I could not say.
Mr. Whitley. You could not say?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. But you do know there was such a convention ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Approximately a year prior to the convention held in
Los Angeles ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Which was the following August?
Mr. Allen. The following fall; yes.
Mr. Whitley. And did you, in accordance with the discussion which
you have just described, undertake a lecture tour of the west coast?
Mr. Allen. No. Those plans were somewhat laid aside, and I was
requested to go to Fresno and to inquire there as to the possibilities of
perfecting a closer relationship with the Associated Farmers in that
area.
Mr. Whitley. And whom did you contact in connection with that
assignment (
Mr. Allen. Well, I believe I contacted the secretary of the farmers'
association — the Associated Farmers.
Mr. Wthitley. In that section ?
Mr. Allen. In Fresno ; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know what the name of the secretary was?
Mr. Allen. I could not say.
Mr. Whitley. You could not say?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Wthitley. What was the nature of that discussion?
Mr. Allen. There was a very short conversation that had no im-
portance at all.
Mr. Whitley. No definite agreement was arrived at ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
94931 — 39 — vol. 6 20
4006 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Did you attempt, through him, to arrange some
speaking engagements?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. On behalf of the Associated Farmers ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you attend any meetings or gatherings of the
Associated Farmers?
Mr. Allen. No, sir ; not at that time.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever spoken before a gathering of Asso-
ciated Farmers?
Mr. Allen. No ; I never have spoken before any gatherings of the
Associated Farmers, as such.
Mr. Whitley. As such ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You mean you have spoken at gatherings where
members were present ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever taken any active part or in any way
actively participated in the affairs of the Associated Farmers?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; not in their organization.
Mr. Whitley. By way of lectures or conferences ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Or articles or materials that might be distributed?
Mr. Allen. No, sir. You understand, I have contacted individuals,
but not in any sense as to organization work.
Mr. Whitley. I see.
Mr. Voorhis. What kind of a response did you get from them, Mr.
Allen?
Mr. Allen. Well, our conversation was quite general. There was
nothing definite as far as any real plans discussed with the persons
with whom I talked.
Mr. Voorhis. I mean were they interested in your program ?
Mr. Allen. Yes ; the men I talked with were ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Now, what further contacts have you had with Mr.
Deatherage, aside from the one meeting you have previously described?
Mr. Allen. Well, after that, there were several meetings with him.
Most of them occurred at Mrs. Fry's home.
Mr. Whitley. That was while he was still on the coast ?
Mr. Allen. While he was still on the coast.
Mr. Whitley. How long was he out there, Mr. Allen ?
Mr. Allen. I think possibly 2 weeks, or 3 weeks.
Mr. Whitley. And you say 3^011 don't know in whose home he was
visiting?
Mr. Allen. He was stopping at one of the hotels.
Mr. Whitely. At one of the hotels ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. He was not visiting?
Mr. Allen. Oh, no.
Mr. Whitley. The subsequent conferences you had while he was
on the west coast — who was present at those?
Mr. Allen. No one.
Mr. Whitley. No one?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. You talked to him privately?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr.
The
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4007
Mr. Whitley. And alone?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of those private conferences?
Mr. Allen. We were discussing plans in detail for carrying on the
work.
Mr. Whitley. The work which you were doing and which he was
doing'
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And which those other various individuals and
groups were doing?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Was any definite decision arrived at as to plans?
Mr. Allen. Never.
Mr. AVhitley. As a result of those discussions?
Mr. Allen. Never; except he requested me to make a tour of the
Pacific coast — not particularly in the matter of making any addresses
at all, but in order to make a survey — more of a survey of the attitude
of mind which a number of the patriotic organizations might have,
or individuals.
Mr. Whitley. I see. By your reference to "patriotic organiza-
tions," do you mean organizations like Mr. Frank Clark's, and Mr.
dColdren's, and those organizations?
Mr. Allen. No; we don't consider them hardly-
-
tfi
'here n
8 perso»
with II
rail
:V:!l;l:-
Iiviik Mr. Whitley (interposing). What do you mean by "patriotic or-
ganizations," Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. I mean people who are seriously concerned in the
Jt proper way of combatting Jewish communism.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, right at that point I think he ought
to give us an example, or name one of the so-called patriotic organi-
zations, right at this point. I am wondering whether he means the
American Legion or the D. A. R., or what he means.
Mr. Whitley. Just what organizations or groups do you include
in that description, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. Possibly some of the women's groups.
Mr. Whitley. Name some of them.
The Chairman. Wait a minute. You can make that clear; you
certainly know what organizations you had in mind if you were go-
ing to make a tour over the country.
Mr. Allen. There was no tour.
The Chairman. You used the word "possibly" ; let us get down to
more definite testimony.
Mr. Allen. There was no tour, because that was all laid aside.
The Chairman. Well, inspection trip, or whatever you call it.
Mr. Allen. Survey.
The Chairman. You certainly had in mind some organization; it
would not be logical
Mr. Allen. No; we had in mind no specific organization, except
the Associated Farmers. That was the one we talked of most den-
he « nitely in regard to educational organization work.
The Chairman. And any other organization that was in sympathy ?
Mr. Allen. That was in sympathy, or individuals.
The Chairman. You had no other organizations in mind spe-
cifically ?
Mr. Allen. No; I did not know of any particularly.
t
4008 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman. I want to make this point ; I did not
get it clear: The witness did not have in mind contacting real
patriotic organizations like the American Legion or the Veterans of
Foreign Wars, or the D. A. R., or anything like that, did he?
Mr. Allen. Personally, I most certainly consider the Silver Shirts
a very patriotic organization.
Mr. Thomas. That is all.
Mr. Whitley. And that description "patriotic organizations" would
mean the Silver Shirts, and similar groups that have some interest in
the program?
Mr. Allen. Groups interested in combatting Jewish communism.
Mr. Whitley. Now, who was to finance this trip, this tour, you
were discussing with Mr. Deatherage?
Mr. Allen. The finances were to come from Mr. Chapman; that
is, I was requested to go to him whenever expense money was
necessary.
Mr. Whitley. Did Mr. Deatherage discuss with you what his own
idea was as to how to accomplish the program, or the aims of the
organizations he was connected with, namely, the Knights of the
White Camellia, and the American Nationalist Confederation?
Mr. Allen. No ; there was no definite program set out, as far as he
was concerned.
Mr. Whitley. Well, he did not discuss with you what his program
was, or what his plans were, or how to go about accomplishing the
objective of the organization he was affiliated with?
Mr. Allen. Nothing except, if I recaU, he showed me a copy of
their declaration of principles, or something of that sort.
Mr. Whitley. I know, but his full time and energies were being
devoted to the carrying out of that program, and did he discuss his
plans as to how he should proceed and how the other organizations
should proceed with him ?
Mr. Allen. No ; nothing more except it was best to set up different
groups — different cultural groups, religious groups, or educational
groups.
Mr. Whitley. Did he suggest violence might have to be restored
to accomplish the program which he had in mind ?
Mr. Allen. Not specifically; no, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Not specifically?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitney. Did he suggest that that might be necessary, or a
last resort, even?
Mr. Allen. Well, in any reference he made to that, the question
of violence never came up unless the Communists — or that there was
a major upheaval of subversive elements against the authorized
authority.
Mr. Whitley. From your conversations with Mr. Deatherage,
would you consider that his ideas, insofar as the manner in which this
Government should be conducted are concerned, are Fascist?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Is he in accord with the present system of govern-
ment ?
Mr. Allen. I have never heard Mr. Deatherage make any remark,
except he hoped, and would always try to bring us back to our Amer-
ican form of government.
x
UN-AMERK'.W PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4009
Mr. Whitley. I see.
Mi-. Allen. He \\as very emphatic about that.
Mr. Whitley, But as far as you know, he was not trying to set up
an organization that would at least be semimilitary?
Mr. Allen. Oh; no, sir.
Mr. Whitley. He was not (
Mr. Allen. No. sir; nothing except in case of a major upheaval.
The Chairman. Right there, at that point, suppose you develop
what he meant by "in case of a major upheaval." Do you mean he
was going to get ready, now — to have an organization ready for that
event ?
Mr. Allen. Mr. Deatherage's plan, as I understood it, was to have
arrangements made with these different groups so that if there is a
communistic outbreak in any given area, or over the country at large,
or on the Pacific Coast, that that organization as set up could function
under the organized authority of the State, under either military
authority or otherwise. In other words, the organization Mr. Death-
- oft erage talked about was to be turned over and to be trained to come
iofti under the domination of the recognized authorities.
The Chairman. You were to get it all ready, to train them and get
them all ready, so that if this outbreak occurred you would have an
organization that could go at once into the field?
Mr. Allen. No ; to turn them over to the Reserve Officers' Associa-
tion, or the recognized authority.
The Chairman. I see. But they would be ready at the outbreak,
-o that when they were turned over
Mr. Alien. They would be useful.
The Chairman. They would be trained?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, Mr. Deatherage's program was to
build up an organization which was both a propaganda organization
md a semimilitary organization, or a propaganda organization that
:ould be converted into a military organization over night; wTas that
t?
Mr. Allen. We did not attempt any propaganda organization.
Our work was entirely educational, based upon facts.
Mr. Whitley. It is a question there entirely of the interpretation of
he activities?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
rT or J Mr. Whitley. But you did not get the impression that Mr. Death-
rage was advocating the use of force or violence, or advocating the
tting up of a military organization?
Mr. Allen. I never had that impression ; no, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Was it during this series of conferences you had
with Mr. Deatherage on the west coast in the fall of 1937 that he
,iie:; :urned over to you this chari which he had prepared?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Wthitley. This chart, Mr. Allen [exhibiting], a very elabo-
rately prepared chart, provides for an elaborate set-up. At the top
portion it is captioned "propaganda group."
Mr. Allen. Propaganda group; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. A moment ago you objected to my use of that term,
md you said ""educational." He calls it "propaganda group," and he
■alls for about 45 different sections to be included in that group; the
arasl
Mflgffi
birig tl
copy
re \k
4010 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
set-up, briefly, at the head being, at the top "American Nationalist
Confederation" ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That is the organization Mr. Deatherage is the
head of?
Mr. Allen. I believe so.
Mr. Whitley. That is the organization he was elected to head;
that was set up at the Kansas City convention, and he was elected
the head of it at that time?
Mr. Allen. Well, I was not present.
Mr. Whitley. You were not present ?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. And you have never heard Mr. Deatherage describe
that organization?
Mr. Ajllen. Oh, yes; I have.
Mr. Whitley. Well, what was his description of it?
Mr. Allen. He described it briefly and passed me the declaration
of principles of it.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Did he tell you it was organized at the Kan-
sas City convention?
Mr. Allen. Yes; he told me so.
Mr. Whitley. Then, in spite of the fact you have his word for itr
that that is where it was organized
Mr. Allen. Oh, yes; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did he tell you he was elected the head of that or-
ganization at the Kansas City convention?
Mr. Allen. I assume he was. I don't know that he ever told me,
but I assume he was.
Mr. Whitley. I do not want any assumptions. If he did not tell
you that, or you were not present, we will strike that response.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Now, did he tell you what the purposes and aims
of that confederation were?
Mr. Allen. Not any more than in a few words — combatting any
Communist upheaval.
Mr. Whitley. Did he tell you that organization was set up at the
Kansas City convention to coordinate and bring together all of the
various groups into this one confederation, in order that their work
mierht be more oifective?
Mr. Allen. Well, I think there was some conversation on that ;
yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. And this, then [exhibiting] is the chart which he
drew up as the head of the American Nationalist Confederation and
which represented his idea as to how this confederation of all those
groups should function?
Mr. Allen. I don't know that he drew the chart.
Mr. Whitley. He gave it to you?
Mr. Allen. Yes; he gave it to me.
Mr. Whitley. Did he tell you who drew it ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did he indicate he did it?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. He described it to you ; did he tell you this was the
plan to be used ?
nail
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4011
Mr. Allen. Well, he laid it on the table and told me to observe
the different groups I should try to organize.
Mr. Whitley. He explained it to you ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And his explanation indicated that it represented
the plan of the confederation?
Mr. Allen. As I understood it; yes.
Mr. Whitley. The top portion of this, or right at the head of
this chart is "American Nationalist Confederation." Immediately
under that is the ''National Leader.*' He has space there to fill in
the name. Then he has, under that ''Chief of staff"; under that he
has "Statf headquarters," and as adjacent or corollary portions of
those latter two, he has "Two adjutants to take charge," to be chief
of staff and to be in charge of staff headquarters.
Then coming on down from that top group, he has set up these
various sections: "Party program," "Personnel director," "Civic edu-
cation," "Youth movement," "Corps area leaders" — these all still
being under the general heading of "Propaganda group" or organi-
zation.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. One section there is scratched and I cannot read it,
Mr. Chairman — section No. 9. No. 10 is "Substitute officers"; an-
other section, "Religious groups"; another section, "Women's groups."
Then, under that again, "Corps area leaders," he has "Information
bureau." And he proposed to set up as a part of this organization
a "Geneological bureau." Did he explain what the purpose of the
geneological bureau was, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. There was no explanation made by him, as I remember,
of any of those groups there, no more than that was the general
plan which we were to follow in the general work of organizing.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. The chart is more or less self-explanatory?
Mr. Allen. I think so.
The Chairman. Y^ou discussed that geneological group with him,
did you % You knew what that meant, did you not ?
Mr. Allen. I don't think I had to, because I knew we would admit
no Jews — if that is what you mean.
The Chairman. That was to determine who was Aryan and who
was not ?
Mr. Allen. I don't talk much about "Aryan."
Mr. Whitley. Now, other groups that were to be set up to func-
tion as a part of this plan were "Fraternal orders," "Foreign lan-
guage groups," "Financial," "Universities and schools." "Cultural
groups," "Records and archives." Another section is the "Conven-
tions; meetings." Each of these spaces has a blank there to fill in
the person who was to be selected to take charge of that particular
activity of the confederation?
"Labor unions," "Censorship bureau." Did he make any com-
ment on the extent to which censorship would be exercised ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did he express approval of censorship ?
Mr. Allen. He did not make any remarks about it that I can recall.
Mr. Whitley. What is your idea as to what this "censorship bu-
reau" means ?
Mr. Allen. I certainly could not say as to that.
4012 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
»
Mr. Whitley. I know you could not say what lie thinks about it,
but what would you think a censorship bureau in such a set-up as
this would be?
Mr. Allen. Personally, I would feel I would not be at all con-
cerned with anything about censorship. That is not in my line.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Then, continuing with the other sections to
be organized in this confederation, there is "press propaganda," or,
if you prefer, "press education"; "'direct-mail propaganda"; "patri-
otic societies"; "governmental activities"; "radio broadcasts." An-
other section is "counter propaganda"; "industrial associations";
"party organization"; "speakers' bureau." Another section is "plan-
ning section"; another, "veterans' groups"; another, "intelligence
bureau."
Now, those are the various sections to be organized under the top
part of this map. which is indicated or called "propaganda group."
Leading down from that set-up, that organization, into the lower
part of the picture, it is captioned, "military-defense section," and
there he has set up "first corps area"; "second corps area"; "third
corps area," and so forth — nine corps areas in all. And in other
sections under that there is "staff divisions": "man groups"; "recruit-
ing division"; "judicial division." Did he indicate what he contem-
plated by way of setting up a judicial division?
Mr. Allen. No. He made no comments on the different things, as
far as I remember.
Mr. Whitley. Then there is "administration division": "officers'
training school"; "medical corps": "educational division": "intelli-
gence section" — and those are all connected with groups or sections
which indicate man groups.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Which means manpower. That set-up, and still as
part of the military set-up, leads down into a section which indicates
"brigades"; "regiments": and then into "battalions" in the manner
in which they were to be set up.
Mr. Thomas. Right along that line. I would like to ask a ques-
tion. I would like to ask the witness whether the witness and Mr.
Deatherage, in their discussion, really took this plan seriously.
Mr. Allen. The plan, as far as I am concerned — I am referring
now to this chart here — laid in my drawer, and I do not think I ever
opened it after Mr. Deatherage went away, because I did not feel
there was any occasion for opening it. I recalled that was more or
less the organization, or type of organization, that Mr. Deatherage
talked about: but I had no further occasion to use it.
Mr. Thomas. Well, did you think that this kind of organization
could be set up?
Mr. Allen. Well, as to that, I presume it could be: I presume it Mr.
could be.
Mr. Thomas. Would you advocate its being set up?
Mr. Allen. I would advocate anything like that to combat a sim-
ilar one which Jewish Communists have already in this country.
Mr. Thomas. Do you think the Jewish Communists have an or-
ganization like this?
Mr. Allen. Well, I am certain they do.
Mr. Thomas. Leaving out the Communists, do you think the Jew-
ish people have anything like thai \
ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4013
Mr. Allen. As to the Jewish people — I don't know ns to that. I am
only talking now about the "reds" and the people who follow thai
philosophy.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, did Mr. Deatherage indicate in your con-
versations with him — and von have stated, I believe, you had several
over the period of a week or 10 days while he was on the west coast?
Mr. Allen. While he was there; yes, sir.
Mr. YVhitlky. That this was the plan he proposed to carry out?
Mr. Allen. lie indicated the chart as being a proper one by which
the organization should be formed.
Mr. Whitley. Did he discuss with you the prospective leaders of
those various groups of the confederation?
Mr. Allen. No ; he never talked about that.
Mr. Whitley. He did not discuss that at all ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. He did not ask you to consult him about selecting
some of the leaders?
Mr. Allen. Nothing of that sort.
The Chairman. I think you have it pretty well established that this
was Mr. Deatherage's plan, and he has gone on record to say he
favored a similar plan to combat Jewish communism. I think that is
pretty well established.
Mr. Allen. That is correct.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Whitley. Now, Mr. Allen, who is Mrs. Fry? How long has
she been on the west coast ?
Mr. Allen. We first knew of Mrs. Fry in the fall of 1936 from this
paper, this Christian Free Press, its first issue, in October of that year.
No one seemed to know where she came from ; but the message that it
carried was one we were rather sympathetic with and, when the first
copy of it was handed to me, I made it my business to call at the office
in the Chamber of Commerce Building — she had an office in the Cham-
ber of Commerce Building in Los Angeles at that time — and I found
the door locked and a little notice posted on the door that no one could
be seen except by appointment, and a telephone number was given.
Then I called up by telephone and an appointment was arranged for
the next day, and at that time I met her for possibly 20 minutes and
talked. I never saw her again until a year afterward. She suffered
an automobile accident, I believe, that fall, and the following year, in
1937, or rather the following summer of 1937, I received a letter
signed by Mrs. Maxey asking me if I would call at Mrs. Fry's residence.
Mr. Whitley. Who is Mrs. Maxey ?
Mr. Allen. Mrs. Maxey is Mrs. Fry's secretary, or was at that
time.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, I think you have already described, this
morning, your own contacts with her and meetings?
Mr. Allen. Yes; I described that.
Mr. Whitley. Particularly what I want to find out is, how long
has she been on the west coast — this again of your knowledge — and
how long she has been active in this work ?
Mr. Allen. As far as I know, her being on the west coast only dates
from about that time.
Mr. Whitley. Have vou heard her state how long she has been
there?
4014 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. She has stated to a number of us at different times that
she was born in San Francisco, of Russian parentage; that her parents
died and that she was adopted by the Ralston family.
Mr. Whitley. What family was that?
Mr. Allen. The Ralston family, of San Francisco. I have tried
to check that, but I have never met with much success. In fact,
Mrs. Fry gave her age as being 62.in 1938, and I discovered that
Mr. Ralston committed suicide some 2 years before she claimed to
have been adopted by him. So our investigation came to an end.
The Chairman. What was the purpose in conducting the investiga-
tion? You were working with her.
Mr. Allen. It was this : I was working with her, but a great
many rumors had gone around about Mrs. Fry, all more or less
tending to show
The Chairman (interposing). Wait a minute; if it was nothing
but rumors, let us not go into rumors. You had certain doubts that
caused you to make the investigation?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. That caused me to make the investigation.
I had certain doubts as to who she really was.
The Chairman. Have you developed who she was?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
The Chairman. Who is Conrad Chapman? You have stated that
you were associated with him.
Mr. Allen. I know nothing in the world about him, except that
he is an Englishman. He lives in England at the present time, I be-
lieve, and, so far as I know, he was there carrying on this work with
Mrs. Fry.
The Chairman. Was he associated with her in this work there ?
Mr. Allen. From what was told me, the association began back
in England, when she was living in England.
Mr. Thomas. Is it your understanding that funds were being sup-
plied from England?
Mr. Whitley. He said the funds came through Chapman.
Whether they were supplied from there, or came from some other
source, I believe he testified he did not know.
Mr. Allen. That is correct. He was the man who paid the money.
Whether any of it came from there, I do not know.
Mr. Thomas. Did you receive any funds direct from Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. Did I?
Mr. Thomas. Yes; did you receive funds direct from her?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; I do not recall that I ever received money
from Mrs. Fry for any purpose whatsoever.
The Chairman. Did Mr. Chapman ever give you any money?
I Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; he paid me expense money.
Mr. Thomas. I would like to have you bring out a little more
about Mrs. Fry — how long she spent in England, and when did she
leave there, and how long she has been in the United States. I think
we should find out as much as possible about Mrs. Fry.
Mr. Whitley. He testified that he made an investigation, and
stated that he did not accomplish anything in the way of checking
up on her background. Mr. Allen, what did she tell you, or what
statements did she make in your presence, that would indicate her
previous connection ? During the period of time that she was closely
associated with you in these activities, did she make any statement
that would be enlightening as to her past connections or activities?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4915
'"■nils
and
Mr. Allen. She told me that she was formerly the owner of the
Free Press — not the Christian Free Press, of London, but it was some-
thing like the Christian Free Press. She carried on communications
: in London with many other people there, but I do not recall any but
Mr. Chapman. She then said a little about being in Russia; that her
husband had been taken from her there; that he was a Russian general.
Then she told some rather interesting things about living in Russia.
Her two sons, I believe, she said were born at Riga. She said she was
obliged to leave the country at the time of the upset.
Mr. Whitley. Do you mean the Russian revolution?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; the Russian revolution. She told me also that
her husband was killed in the Russian revolution. Her entire story of
her life to me or anybody else has been very sketchy. I have never
been able to get a coherent, continuous story of it.
Mr. Whitley. Did you encourage her to give you the story ?
Mr. Allen. I tried to get all the information I could, because I
"believed it was necessary, with so much doubts being felt, to get all
information I possibly could.
The Chairman. In other words, the people associated with her
doubted her representations of loyalty and sincerity in combating
communism ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did she tell you how she happened to get funds out
of Russia ? Most of them who have come here from that country are
as poor as church mice.
Mr. Allen. She said they were actually broke. \
Mr. Whitley. Did you receive funds from Mr. Chapman ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Were those funds paid to you in cash or by check ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir ; by check. No, sir ; pardon me ; it was generally
in cash, but at the time I came to Washington he paid the money by
■check. I think he gave me two checks, k^-""
Mr. Whitley. Signed by himself ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know the name of the bank ?
Mr. Allen. It was a Glendale bank. I think it was the First
National.
Mr. Voorhis. Did you have any indication from Mrs. Fry as to
where any of the money came from ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Where do you think the funds came from ?
Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry told me that a large part of the money came
from Mrs. Jewett.
Mr. Voorhis. From Pasadena?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. She said it came from her ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. I asked no more questions about that.
Mr. Voorhis. What reason was there for going through Chapman
with it?
Mr. Allen. Only this, that they would have some sort of a fund
from contributors, and Mrs. Jewett was one of the contributors to that
fund. Mrs. Fry told me that they made contributions to the fund, and
that he had been appointed to make disbursements from it.
Mr. Voorhis. Do you know where Mr. Chapman is now?
4016 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. The last address I had from him was Dover.
Mr. Voorhis. When did he go ?
Mr. Allen. He left a year ago.
Mr. Voorhis. Why did he leave?
Mr. Allen. He left suddenly. I have no knowledge of why he left.
Mr. Voorhis. Mrs. Fry did not leave ?
Mr. Allen. We are trying to find out about that now.
Mr. Voorhis. Do you know where she is now ?
Mr. Allen. I have no knowledge where she is at the present time.
Mr. Voorhis. Where is Arno Risse.
Mr. Allen. When I left Los Angeles he was there.
Mr. Whitley. Did Mrs. Fry, in connection with her previous ac-
tivities of a similar nature in London, ever mention whether she was
in any way associated with Sir Oswald Moseley?
Mr. Allen. No, sir ; she never told me anything with regard to any
such relations.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know the type of organization that Sir
Oswald Moseley started ?
Mr. Allen. Only from what I read in the papers.
Mr. Whitley. Did you have any correspondence with him or any
letters from him ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir ; I got one copy of the Fascist.
Mr. Whitley. They get out a publication known as the Fascist?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. He is supposed to be the head of a Fascist organi-
zation ?
Mr. Allen. That is what I am told. That is what I read.
Mr. Whitley. Did Mrs. Fry mention her having been associated
with Beamish, of South Africa?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. I am trying to get this straight now, because
I want to give the story as nearly as possible in correct form. Mrs.
Fry — let me, if I may, begin at the time of his visit here. I think we
will have to approach it that way. Mr. Beamish, as you know, came,
here in the winter of 1937. At that time I was carrying on a certain
amount of activity in the San Joaquin Valley. When I was at Fresno
I received a telegram from somebody in New York — whom, I do not
kp.ow— asking me if I would meet Captain Beamish; that he was
coming to Los Angeles.
Mr. Whitley. What are his initials?
Mr. Allen. Henry Hamilton Beamish. I did know particularly
who Mr. Beamish was. When I returned to Fresno on Saturday I
showed the telegram that I had received to Mrs. Fry, and told her that
I thought it would be a good idea for her to meet Captain Beamish.
Mr. Whitley. Had you heard of him previously?
Mr. Allen. I knew something about him, but we had not corre-
sponded.
Mr. Whitley. You saw some of his literature?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; I knew him by name, from some pamphlets he
had written.
Mi". Whitley. What was the name of his organization?
Mr. Allen. He was the originator of the Britons. When I showed
the telegram to Mrs. Fry and to Mr. Chapman, they became very
noticeably indignant. They told me I should by no means meet or
have anything whatsoever to do with Beamish. I was very much
/
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4Q17
amazed at this, because I supposed that he was one man that everybody
highly respected. I did not know how to account for it. However,
while' I did not meet Captain Beamish at the boat when he came. I
arranged to have other people meet him; but later I made it a point to
contait him in Los Angeles. In my conversation with him, he said,
"Now. Mr. Allen, I am very anxious to meet Mrs. Fry." He said that
it was very imperative that he should meet her and she meet him, and
asked would I arrange it. I again called on Mrs. Fry herself that
afternoon and told her of the conversation. She said, "By no means
will I meet Captain Beamish."
Mr. Whitley. Did she state any reason for not wanting to meet him?
Mr. Allen. She said later that she had had some estrangement from
him in London, and that he was just a rotter, and that she would have
nothing to do with him. Going back to Captain Beamish again, the
next day or so, I told him just exactly what she said. He said, "Well,
I expected she would say that; but I still insist that I must see Mrs.
wry in some way." He told her, or telephoned while I was with him,
and asked her for permission to call, which she refused. Captain
Beamish said to me, "There is some reason why she does not dare to see
me. and nobody knows better than she what this reason is." I did not
feel that it was proper to question Captain Beamish any further.
Mr. Whitley. And he did not volunteer anything?
Mr. Allen. He volunteered nothing.
Mr. Whitley. And subsequent to your conversation with him he
site
4 to
"'Pldid not explain why she did not want to meet him?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Iraki?'
iff, cam
t
I
I tried as courteously as I could to get infor-
i niation as to the situation, but I got nothing from either her or him.
The Chairman. It occurs to the Chair that some of these things are
absolutely immaterial. Of course, they may lead to something later.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, did you during the winter of 1938 make a
trip east in the performance of a mission for Mrs. Fry, and did you
carry out certain instructions that you received from her?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That was what month, or what date ?
Mr. Allen. That was in January, I believe, in 1938.
Mr. Whitley. January 1938?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. What was the purpose of the trip, or the primary
purpose of the trip?
Mr. Allen. The primary purpose of the trip, according to Mr.
unlay II Chapman's instructions, was for the purpose of picketing the May-
liertliilflower Hotel with Arabs upon the occasion of the Palestine Convention,
ieamiij Mr. Whitley. Those were Mr. Chapman's instructions?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did he furnish the finances for that trip ?
Mr. Allen. He paid the expenses of the trip.
Mr. Whitley. Did you accomplish that mission?
Mr. Allen. I did.
Mr. Whitley. We will get further details about that in a few min-
utes. Did you go to any other places and make certain other contacts
at that time in accordance with instructions from Mr. Chapman ?
Mr. Allen. When I left Los Angeles I was given a letter by Mrs.
Fry, directed to the Rumanian consulate, and I was told how to deliver \
the letter. At that time the Government was changing. I was told
j
4018 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
that if the Fortescue regime was still holding office here I was not to
deliver the letter but mail it, but that if the new consul had arrived
and was in possession I was then to deliver the letter to the consul.
Mr. Whitley. To the consul or the Ambassador ?
Mr. Allen. At the Embassy.
Mr. Whitley. The letter was for the Rumanian Ambassador?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Your instructions, which you have just related, were
to deliver it at the Embassy and not the consulate ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you carry out the instrutcions ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you contact the Rumanian Embassy?
Mr. Allen. I did not contact anybody. I learned before I came
that the old regime was still there; so I mailed the letter as directed.
Mr. Whitley. Where was the letter addressed ?
Mr. Allen. It was addressed to Budapest.
Mr. Whitley. To Budapest, Rumania?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. To whom was it addressed ?
Mr. Allen. I do not recall.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know what were the contents of the letter?
Mr. Allen. No, sir ; it was a sealed letter.
Mr. Whitley. Did she indicate why she wanted you to make con-
tact with the Rumanian Embassy ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir ; she gave no reason.
Mr. Whitley. She did not tell you what the reason was?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you contact any other embassies on the instruc-
tion of Mrs. Fry while you were in Washington ?
Mr. Allen. I called at the Italian Embassy.
Mr. Whitley. Was that upon instruction from Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. She suggested that I call there.
Mr. Whitley. Did she suggest that you call on the Italian Em-
bassy ?
Mr. Allen. Well, she said — she wrote me to just talk over with
them in regard to the general situation in Italy.
Mr. Whitley. In Italy?
Mr. Allen. In Italy.
Mr. Whitley. By way of getting some information; did she give
you instructions as to what ?
Mr. Allen. No; she wanted to know how things were going in
Italy.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Did you call on the Italian Embassy?
Mr. Allen. I called on them.
Mr. Whitley. Whom did you talk with ?
Mr. Allen. I didn't talk with the Ambassador because he was away,
but I talked with a Mr. Casnelli or some such name.
Mr. Whitley. What was his position in the Embassy ?
Mr. Allen. I think he was — I don't know what his official title was.
I understood he had some title but I can't recall what it was.
Mr. Whitley. He was an official in the Embassy ?
Mr. Allen. He was.
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UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4019
Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of that conversation you had
with him '(
Mr. Allen. Well, we only talked generally for about 5 minutes; I
don't recall talking any longer.
Mr. Whitley. I see.
Mr. Allen. And my purpose of coming there was to talk with the
Ambassador and since he wasn't there I didn't see anything to be
gained by talking with him.
Mr. Whiley. Did you advise the office of the Italian Embassy what
your work was and what had been done on the west coast?
Mr. Allen. No ; I did not discuss that except that in a general way i
I was interested in the work.
Mr. Whitley. Did you tell him that the various individuals in or-
ganizations with which you were identified there had been cooperating
with the Italian group ?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. You did not tell him that ?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. AVhitley. Did 3^011 visit any other offices or representatives of
foreign governments while you were in Washington?
The Chairman. Before you get away from that subject: You say
you went to the office of the Italian Embassy in Washington and you
met an official and told him that you were with an organization to
combat Jewish communism?
Mr. Allen. That was my statement.
The Chairman. Did he congratulate you?
Mr. Allen. No; he didn't congratulate me. He wanted to know
how the work was progressing.
The Chairman. And you told him you were getting along fine ?
Mr. Allen. No; I didn't make any remark at all. I told liim we
were going ahead but he didn't make any further remark on that.
The Chairman. Did you discuss the question of finances, that you
were having a hard time getting enough money ?
Em- Mr. Allen. No ; I didn't make any reference to that at all.
The Chairman. Did he express an interest in your work?
Mr. Allen. Not particularly. He said that he hoped that we would
meet with success in the work that we were doing.
Mr. Thomas. That should be developed further. An officer in the
Italian Embassy hoped that you would succeed in the work that you
five were doing. Did he state what me meant by that.
Mr. Allen. Well, I could not say what he had in mind.
Mr. Thomas. What work were you referring to ?
Mr. Allen. He was referring to the work we were carrying on
combatting Jewish communism in America.
Mr. Thomas. And he hoped that you would succeed?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Voorhis. And that he would take it up with the Italian Gov-
ernment
Mr. Allen (interposing). Well, I don't know as to that.
Mr. Voorhis. Do I understand, Mr. Allen, that Mrs. Fry asked
you to go to the embassies of foreign governments to get a report on /
this work?
Mr. Allen. Yes; she did.
4020 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Voorhis. Why did you suppose she wanted you to do that?
Mr. Allen. I have no idea as to that, but I went because I was
interested in knowing what the Embassy would have to say.
Mr. Voorhis. Did you have confidence in Mrs. Fry at that time?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Voorhis. You received a salary and expenses
Mr. Allen. I received no pay for what I was doing.
Mr. Voorhis. Expenses?
The Chairman. Just expenses?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Voorhis. I see.
The Chairman. To cover your living expenses in Washington?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Thomas. But you were getting your expenses for coming here
to call on the embassies ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, did you visit any other representatives
of foreign governments on that trip to Washington in January 1939
that you
Mr. Allen (interposing). I don't recall that I did.
Mr. Whitley. You don't recall that you did ?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall that I did;' I may have, but if I did they
were not important at all and that is why I don't remember.
Mr. Whitley. On that same trip to Washington, after you left
Washington, did you visit Atlanta, Ga. ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was that also on the instructions from Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. On the explicit instructions.
The Chairman. Before you get away from Washington I would
like to ask a question further to clear up in my mind what you did at
the Italian Embassy. Did you ask to see the Ambassador?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Where did they tell you he was gone?
Mr. Allen. He was in Europe.
The Chairman. He was in Europe?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did you say that you wanted to see the person who
was in charge while he was away ?
Mr. Allen. I asked who was in charge.
The Chairman. And you were referred to this man Cosmelli?
Mr. Allen. To Mr. Cosmelli.
The Chairman. He was the man you were told was in charge of
the Embassy and authorized to act for the Ambassador during his
absence ?
Mr. Allen. Well, I don't think there was a statement as to that,
but someone suggested that I see Mr. Cosmelli; I don't think they
said he was in charge in the absence of the Ambassador; I don't
think there was any statement as to that.
The Chairman. Did you tell them what you wanted to report
to them about?
Mr. Allen. No; I didn't want to report anything particularly.
The Chairman. You state Mrs. Fry had asked you to see the
Ambassador ?
UN-AMEKICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4021
Mr. Allen. No; I just called on them; just called to make the
acquaintance and ask how the work was going on in Italy.
The Chairman. The work against Jewish communism in Italy?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. That was what you were interested in?
Mr. Allen. That was what I was interested in.
The Chairman. And he expressed an interest in the same thing?
Mr. Allen. He said he hoped us success.
The Chairman. Did he tell you ail about what was going on in
Italy against Jewish communism?
Mr. Allen. Well, he said very satisfactorily; that was all.
The Chairman. And you reported that it was very satisfactory
on the west coast?
Mr. Allen. That is about all. The conversation lasted about 5
minutes ; I don't think any longer.
The Chairman. Was there any further contacts with him after
you left?
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. You never saw him before you went back?
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. Did 3^011 write him a letter after you saw him
then?
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. After you went back home did not you write
him and tell him how very happy you were to have had an occasion
to meet and enjoy the conversation?
Mr. Allen. I may have but I don't recall I wrote to him, that
I ever wrote him.
The Chairman. Well, you would not say that you did not write
a letter, would you ?
Mr. Allen. I have written a great many letters and I don't
attempt to remember them all.
The Chairman. And you may have written him?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall if I ever wrote him.
The Chairman. Did he ever write Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. That I don't know.
The Chairman. Did Mrs. Fry tell you she had written to him?
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. Did you report to Mrs. Fry you had gone to
the Embassy?
Mr. Allen. I reported that I had called ; yes.
The Chairman. Did you tell Mrs. Fry what was said?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. What did she say
Mr. Allen (interposing). As I remember, I wrote her.
The Chairman. You wrote Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. And told her what took place? )
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. And she expressed her satisfaction to you.
Did you know what was in her letter to the Rumanian Ambas-
sador ?
Mr. Allen. No ; I had no knowledge of what was in that.
The Chairman. It was sealed?
94931—39 — vol. 6 21
4022 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. It was a sealed letter.
The Chairman. A sealed letter.
Mr. Allen. With postage on it.
The Chairman. With postage?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Addressed to the Ambassador, whoever he was at
the time you arrived in Washington?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. You actually mailed the letter?
Mr. Allen. I mailed the letter.
The Chairman. Do you know whether she ever got a reply from
the Rumanian Ambassador?
Mr. Allen. Well, that was mailed to Rumania.
The Chairman. The letter was?
Mr. Allen. The letter was mailed to Rumania.
The Chairman. After you got here?
Mr. Allen. Yes; my request was to deliver it in person, to the
new Ambassador if he had taken office.
The Chairman. And if not, to mail it to Rumania ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. And she said that unless there was a new Am-
bassador she didn't want you to deliver the letter ?
Mr. Allen. Yes; to the old regime.
The Chairman. Did she indicate to you in any respect what the
contents of the letter was?
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. Did you inquire of her?
Mr. Allen. I did not inquire.
The Chairman. Were you not curious to find out why Mrs. Fry
was writing him?
Mr. Allen. Yes, I was ; but it was absolutely futile to ask what the
contents of the letter was.
The Chairman. You didn't open the letter to see ?
Mr. Allen. No ; I don't open other people's mail.
Mr. Thomas. May I ask one further question, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Yes, Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Thomas. When you got instructions to call on the Italian
Embassy, did vou have reason to believe that they expected you
to call?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Thomas. Did you have any letter of introduction from Mrs.
Fry?
Mr. Allen. No letter.
Mr. Thomas. To anyone in the Italian Embassy?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Thomas. You went there without any letter
Mr. Allen (interposing). I went right on the sidewalk.
Mr. Thomas. And they gave you the same sort of interview
Mr. Allen. Thev would give anybody who dropped in.
Mr. Thomas. Did you not think it was rather unusual, or a little
out of the ordinary, for them to give anyone, particularly who is
not an Italian citizen, an interview, who dropped in?
Mr. Allen. I do not know that it would be; I don't know.
The Chairman. Pardon me, Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Thomas. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4023
The Chairman. You understand, Mr. Allen, that you are brought
here under subpena and you have been subpened because you have
been engaged in these activities and are not brought here except to
give information.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. In connection with tho.se activities and to fur-
nish all the facts.
Mr. Allen. That is what I am here to do.
Mr. Thomas. On your visit to the Italian Embassy did you men-
tion to Mr. Cosmelli the individual name of Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Was the name you have referred to, Mr. Allen, Mr.
Cosmelli. counsel to the Italian Embassy?
Mr. Allen. Counsellor.
Mr. Whitley. Counsellor?
Mr. Allen. Counsellor.
Mr. Whitley. To the Italian Embassy?
Mr. Allen. He was ; yes.
Mr. AYhitley. Giusseppi Cosmelli.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. In this conversation that you had with Mr. Cos-
melli did you mention Mrs. Fry's name?
Mr. Allen. No; I had no occasion to mention Mrs. Fry's name
particularly because I didn't know he would know her anyway.
Mr. Thomas. During your conversation with him, did not one of
you refer to Mrs. Fry at all?
The Chairman. Didn't he tell you there was great need for work
here in the United States against Jewish combinations?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall that he did. I do not think so.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Allen, when 3^011 were in Washington did you
call on any one of the Embassies other than the Rumanian and the
Italian?
Mr. Allen. I do not remember that I called on any other embassy
except those two.
Mr. Thomas. Did you contact anyone connected with the Russian
Embassy?
Mr. Allen. No; I don't recall that I went to any other Embassy.
Mr. Thomas. Did you contact anyone, or did anyone contact you,
from the British Embassy?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Thomas. That is all.
The Chairman. What about the German Embassy? Did you con-
tact it, or did anyone contact you from the German Embassy?
Mr. Allen. I think I may have called the German Embassy, but
I found no one that I cared to talk with.
The Chairman. Now let us get the facts in connection with that.
As a matter of fact, did not Mrs. Fry tell you to call upon the Ger-
man Embassy?
Mr. Allen. No; she did not.
The Chairman. Did not Chapman tell you?
Mr. Allen. No; the only Embassies that Chapman asked me to call
were the Iraq — the Arabian Embassy — and that was the only one
that there was any special request about.
The Chairman. From Chapman?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
4024 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. And the only other Embassies-
Mr. Allen (interposing). There was no other that they asked me
to call on.
The Chairman. You were asked to call upon the Kumanian Em-
bassy, were you not?
Mr. Allen. Oh, yes; the Rumanian Embassy.
The Chairman. But you were not told to go to the Italian Em-
bassy ?
Mr. Allen. No; I was not told to go to the Italian Embassy.
Mr. Voorhis. I thought you said awhile ago that you called at the
Italian Embassy at Mrs. Fry's suggestion?
Mr. Allen. I think there is a misunderstanding about that. I said
I called up the Rumanian Embassy at her request.
Mr. Voorhis. What did you say when you first went in there?
Personally, I would be tremendously embarrassed in calling at an
Embassy to see somebody. What did you say when you called at the
Embassy ?
Mr. Allen. As far as I am personally concerned, I went there to
discuss the conditions in Italy ; as to the work going on in Italy.
Mr. Voorhis. Did you discuss the matter of persons attempting to
carry on in the United States the same kind of things that the Ital-
ians were doing in Italy?
Mr. Allen. More or less as far as communism was concerned.
Mr. Thomas. And you had no introduction whatever?
Mr. Allen. I had no introduction whatever.
Mr. Thomas. You were talking just as an absolute stranger, and
opening up your heart?
Mr. Allen. No; I did not open up my heart. Our remarks were
few, and I left.
Mr. Thomas. You also say you called on the German Embassy?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. At whose request?
Mr. Allen. Nobody's.
Mr. Thomas. Did you call at the German Embassy for the same
purpose that you called on the Italian Embassy?
Mr. Allen. For the same purpose.
The Chairman. Let us get this straight. You sa}' you want to
give this committee the full facts.
Mr. Allen. That is right.
The Chairman. Is it not a fact that you went to the German Em-
bassy and talked to somebody in the Embassy while you were there?
Mr. Allen. Oh, yes; I talked to somebody in the embassy; surely.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you had quite a discussion
with someone in the German Embassy, did you not ?
Mr. Allen. Not with the ambassador. The ambassador was not
there.
The Chairman. No; with the man in the German Embassy who
was in charge. You had quite a discussion with him?
Mr. Allen. I had quite a little talk with him; yes.
The Chairman. And you discussed your work on the west coast ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The work of your groups?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4025
The Chairman. You told him you were making splendid headway,
did you not?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall what the conversation was, any more than
that Ave were going ahead.
The Chairman. And he expressed satisfaction, did he not, that
you were making good progress?
Mr. Allex. I am quite sure that he did.
The Chairman. You told him about the bund; about the work
of the bund in connection with your organizations?
Mr. Allen. I may have told him something about the work we
were doing. I do not recall that we connected up the two.
The Chairman. You gave him the best regards from Arno Risse,
did you not?
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. You mentioned Arno Risse to him, did you not?
Mr. Allen. I may have mentioned him ; oh, yes.
The Chairman. Didn't you ask him about the work they were do-
ing in Germany in ridding Germany of Jewish Communists?
Mr. Allen, t believe so.
The Chairman. And he told you the work they were doing there?
Mr. Allen. He went on to describe briefly the work that they had
done during this uprising.
The Chairman. What did he tell you as to what they hoped to
accomplish ultimately ?
Mr. Allen. Well, I would not be able to recall his statements or
words. That is some time ago.
The Chairman. It was to the effect that they would get rid of all
the Jews in Germany before they got through?
Mr. Allen. That may possibly have been.
The Chairman. Did he tell you that the bund and these other
organizations were doing fine work ? Didn't he tell you he had gotten
other reports in connection with this work?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall that ; no.
The Chairman. Now let us be very clear about that. In the
course of the conversation did he not mention the fact that he was
well-advised as to what was going on?
Mr. Allen. He may have. I do not know. I could not recall.
The Chairman. You certainly could recall an important thing like
that. You could certainly recall whether or not he said to you that
he had gotten reports from the bund telling him about the progress
of the work.
Mr. Allen. About the progress of the work of the bund ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Allen. Well, he may have done so ; yes. I don't doubt that he
did.
The Chairman. You know he did, as a matter of fact ?
Mr. Allen. No; I do not. I don't remember that he did.
The Chairman. You do remember that the bund was mentioned in
the conversation?
Mr. Allen. Yes; I remember that.
The Chairman. You remember that distinctly?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That was in connection with the work of the
bund?
4026 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. Exactly.
The Chairman. And you discussed with him some of the leaders
in the bund movement on the west coast, did you not ?
Mr. Allen. I think I discussed Herman Schwinn.
The Chairman. You told him that Herman Schwinn was doing a
fine job?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And he said that they were very well pleased with
his work?
Mr. Allen. He may have. I do not know whether he did or not.
The Chairman. I do not want you to say anything that is not
true.
Mr. Allen. Oh. no; I know .that. If I remember it, I shall tell
you so ; if I cannot remember it, I shall not tell you.
The Chairman. But you recall that Schwinn's name was brought
up ?
Mr. Allen. I recall that; yes.
The Chairman. Was any other name brought up ?
Mr. Allen. There may have been three or four, but I cannot recall
them. I think Mr. Risse's name was brought up also.
The Chairman. Did you not tell him in that conversation that you
had a hard time getting money — finance?
Mr. Allen. I do not recall that.
The Chairman. You do not recall anything being mentioned about
finance ?
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. Didn't you tell him that you and the other groups
appreciated the literature that was being sent over from Germany to
aid the cause?
Mr. Allen. I may have told him that I appreciated what I got
from Germany.
The Chairman. You remember that, don't you?
Mr. Allen. I think I made some mention of getting the World
Service.
The Chairman. You told him you appreciated that, and you told
him that the other groups appreciated it ?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall about the other groups.
The Chairman. Didn't you toll him that that was being put to
good use?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall that at all. I told him that I appreciated
receiving the World Service.
The Chairman. What did he tell you in response to that; that
they were glad to give the service?
Mr. Allen. He did not make any remark about that, that I recall.
The Chairman. Didn't he tell you that he was pleased with what
the German-American Bund was doing?
Mr. Allen. Being a German. I presume lie was.
The Chairman. Let us have no presumption. From your con-
versation with him, did you not gather very distinctly that he was
pleased with what the German-American Bund was doing?
Mr. Allen. There was no great lot of conversation about the
German Bund.
The Chairman. Other than what you have previously testified
to?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4027
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. Did he give you any suggestions us to how to
carry on the work in the future?
Mr. A i len. No.
The Chairman. Didn't he tell you about their experiences in Ger-
many: what a difficult time they had at first in getting this over, and
how they were opposed, and finally how they succeeded?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall any of that kind of conversation at all.
The Chairman. lie told you, did he not, that he had gotten many
favorable reports about the work that was being done here?
Mr. Allen. Yes; I believe he made some remark like that.
The Chairman. That is right; and he told you further that the
prospects were that the work was going to succeed in the United
States?
Mr. Allen. No : he never made any remark like that at all that I
remember; no. sir.
The Chairman. You talked to him for about 40 minutes, did you
not '.
Mr. Allen. I don't think so. I don't think I was there more
than
The Chairman. He told you that he would be glad to hear from
you at any time in regard to the work?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall that.
The Chairman. Y"ou don't recall his saying anything like that at
all \
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
The Chairman. Would you say he did not say that, as you left
him: that he would be glad to hear from you in the future?
Mr. Allen. Oh. no : he did not make any remark like that at all.
The Chairman. Did you tell him that you would keep in touch
with him?
Mr. Allen. I would have no reason to keep in touch with him.
The Chairman. Now, in this conversation you talked about the
Silver Shirts, did you not? Do you remember that the Silver Shirts
wnre brought up in the conversation?
Mr. Allen. No; I do not remember that.
The Chairman. You do not remember that the Gold Shirts were
brought up in the conversation?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
The Chairman. The only organizations that you remember were
the bund and your organization and some of the other organizations
on the west coast?
Mr. Allen. As far as the organizations were concerned, there was
no conversation that I recall about any organization except his own —
I mean the bund.
The Chairman. His own organization?
Mr. Allen. Yes; the bund organization. That was all that was
talked about.
The Chairman. I believe that is all.
Mr. Thomas. Will you tell the committee the full name of the
man you saw in the German Embassy?
Mr. Allen. I do not remember what his name was.
Mr. Whitley. Was the name Thomsen — Hans Thomsen, counselor
•of the German Embassy?
4028 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. I would not recall.
Mr. Whitley. You had all this conversation and do not remember
the name of the man?
Mr. Allen. I do not recall the name at all.
Mr. Thomas. How long were you in Washington on that particular
visit?
Mr. Allen. I should say about a week.
Mr. Thomas. And that was in what month of what year?
Mr. Allen. That was in January 1938.
Mr. Thomas. You called on the Rumanian Embassy, or you sent
a letter to the Rumanian Embassy
Mr. Allen. No ; I did not send a letter to the Rumanian Embassy.
Mr. Thomas. The Ambassador, I mean.
Mr. Allen. No ; I sent no letter.
Mr. Thomas. No; but you forwarded a letter from Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. I mav have forwarded Mrs. Fry's letter to Rumania.
Mr. Thomas. And you called on the Italian Embassy and the
German Embassy. What other people did you call on in Washington
during that visit?
Mr. Allen. I called on a number. I called on Mr. True, and I
believe I called — I believe I called on a Mrs. Jemison.
Mr. Thomas. What was her first name?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall her first name.
Mr. Whitley. Alice Lee ? Was it Alice Lee Jemison ?
Mr. Allen. Yes; that is it.
Mr. Thomas. And who else?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall anybody else outside of those.
Mr. Thomas. Did you call on any officials connected with the
United States Government?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. I think I called at one of the commercial
commissions in regard to the raisins — in regard to seeing if some-
thing could be done about the raisins in the San Joaquin Valley.
Mr. Thomas. What official was that ?
Mr. Allen. I cannot recall that, to save my life.
Mr. Thomas. That was a commercial matter ?
Mr. Allen. Well, the object of that call was to see what could be
done with the raisins which were at that time lying in barns and
shacks and rotting and whether there could be some disposition made
of that tremendous crop of raisins for which there was no market.
Mr. Thomas. Did you call on any other official in the Government?
Mr. Allen. I believe I called on the Passport Division; no, not the
Passport Division, but one of the secretaries of state, I think — in
regard to my own immigration.
Mr. Thomas. In the State Department?
Mr. Allen. I think so.
Mr. Thomas. You called on someone in the State Department?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
_ Mr. Thomas. Relative to your own what ?
Mr. Allen. Immigration into Mexico. And then there was another
official that I called upon, but I do not remember who it was. I know
there were two officials.
Mr. Thomas. Did you call on any Cabinet member?
Mr. Allen. Yes; I think one of Mr. Hull's secretaries, that I
called on.
UN-AMERICAN I'KOI'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 4029
Mr. Thomas. What was (hat about?
.Mr. Allen. I can't recall what that was about specifically.
Mr. Thomas. You do not recall why that call was made?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall the nature of that.
Mr. Thomas. You don't recall the nature of your visit to the State
Department \
Mr. Allen. No; if I remember correctly, I met one of the under
secretaries, but who it was I don't remember. I don't remember his
name.
Mr. Thomas. You did not call on any Cabinet member?
Mr. Allen. Oh, no.
Mr. Thomas. Or any Member of the United States Senate or the
House of Representatives?
Mr. Allen. No, not that I remember ; no, sir.
The Chairman. Now, getting back to this conversation at the
German Embassy, you said that the only organization you dis-
cussed was the bund, their organization ?
Mr. Allen. As I remember ; yes.
The Chairman. Yes; but now, as a matter of fact, you testify that
you did talk about Herman Schwinn and Arno Risse?
Mr. Allen. Yes; I think I did. I am quite sure I talked about
them.
The Chairman. Is it not a fact that a discussion came up about
Fritz Kuhn?
Mr. Allen. No ; not that I remember.
The Chairman. I want you to think clearty.
Mr. Allen. I am just telling you to the best of my memory.
The Chairman. To the best of your memory, don't you now re-
member that the name of Kuhn came up in the conversation?
Mr. Allen. Not that I recall.
The Chairman. And that the name Pelly came up in the conver-
sation?
Mr. Allen. Possibly.
The Chairman. Possibly? Now, as a matter of fact, don't you
remember that Pelly's name did come up in the conversation?
Mr. Allen. No; I don't recall that part of the conversation. It
may have. I'm not going to swear that it did, because I don't
remember.
The Chairman. No; I do not want you to swear to anything that
is not the truth.
Mr. Allen. If I remember a thing, I will tell you, but if I do not,
I am not going to admit it.
The Chairman. But you do not recall anything said about Pelly?
Mr. Allen. I do not remember it ; no, sir.
The Chairman. I think that is all.
Mr. Whitley. Did you tell the party with whom you talked at the
German Embassy that you had a letter of introduction from Herman i
Schwinn to Fritz Kuhn in New York?
Mr. Allen. That is possible, because I had one.
Mr. Whitley. You had such a letter ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. A letter which had been written by Herman Schwinn,
the leader of the far-West division of the German-American Bund?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
4030 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Introducing you to Fritz Kuhn?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And during your conversation at the German Em-
bassy did you not make mention of that fact ?
Mr. Allen. I do not recall that I did.
Mr. Whitley. You do not remember any comments which were
made about Mr. Schwinn in the discussion ?
Mr. Allen. Well, I may have mentioned it, but I do not remember
it.
Mr. Whitley. But you did have such a letter ?
Mr. Allen. I did have the letter ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Introducing you to the leader of the German -Amer-
ican Bund, from the west-coast leader ?
Mr. Allen. To Fritz Kuhn ; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Is it not a fact that Mr. Deatherage was in town at
that time ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. At the same time you were here ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Was any mention made of the fact, during the con-
versation at the Embassy, that Mr. Deatherage had visited the Em-
bassy ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. No mention whatever?
Mr. Allen. No mention whatever.
Mr. Whitley. And you still do not remember the name of the man
you talked to at the Embassy ?
Mr. Allen. No ; I do not remember.
Mr. Whitley. He was one of the officials there ?
Mr. Allen. He was a rather youngish man, but what his name was
and what his capacity was I do not remember.
Mr. Whitley. On that visit to Washington approximately, how
long were you here ?
Mr. Allen. I would say about a week, and possibly a day or two
over.
Mr. Whitley. In addition to the activities that you have already
outlined, and which were being carried out in accordance with the
instructions received from the west coast, explain the nature of your
activities at the Mayflower Hotel — your picketing activities.
Mr. Allen. The plan there was to picket the Maj'flower Hotel as a
protest against the occupation of Palestine by the Jews. The thing
was done as a friendly gesture toward the Arabs. In other words,
the picketing was done by Arabs.
Mr. Whitley. Now, why the Mayflower ? Is that where the meet-
ing was being held?
Mr. Allen. The convention was being held at the Mayflower Hotel,,
for 3 days.
Mr. Whitley. And was that convention picketed ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Who actually performed the picketing of the May-
flower ?
Mr. Allen. If I remember, we had 8 or 10 Arabs.
The Chaerman. Right there, there is something that does not con-
nect up. When you were at the embassy, you discussed with them
IX A.MKKK'AX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4Q31
• : II
about this picketing, did you nol '. That was the reason you went to
the embassy \
Mr. Allen. Which embassy?
The Chairman. The Arabian Embassy.
Mr. Allen. Oh, I did not go to the Arabian Embassy.
The Chairman. You did not go there at all \
Air. Allen. No, sir.
The Chairman. All right : go ahead.
Mr. Whitley. Where did you get the Arabs that were used for this
picketing duty \
Mr. Allen. I did not procure the Arabs myself at all.
Mr. Whitley. Who procured them for you?
Mr. Allen. A man who came down from New York.
Mr. Whitley. What was his name?
Mr. Allen. His name was George.
Air. Whitley. Peter George?
Mr. Allen. Peter George.
Mr. Whitley. And who is Peter George?
Mr. Allen. The only knowledge I have of him is that he is at-
tached in some way to the Arab League.
Mr. Whitley. Attached to the Arab League ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And through him you secured the services of about
10 pickets?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Arabs, who picketed the Mayflower for what period
of time ?
Mr. Allen. If I recall it, the first picketing was done Saturday
night, and again on Sunday night or Sunday evening from, I think,
about G o'clock until about 8 each evening.
Mr. Whitley. That was all planned and arranged, though, by you,
and you just secured the manpower through Peter George?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did the pickets carry placards?
Mr. Allen. They carried placards; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was there any protest or any discussion or trouble
over the picketing?
Mr. Allen. None whatever.
Mr. Whitley. Did you report the results of your activities in
Washington to Mrs. Fry ?
Mr. Allen. I wrote them.
Mr. Whitley. Both as the outcome of the picketing assignment
and also your visits to the various embassies?
Mr. Allen. I believe so.
Mr. Whitley. And you stated a moment ago. I believe, Mr. Allen,
that you did not visit — you did or did not visit the Arab Legation?
Air. Allen. Did not.
Mr. Whitley. That is known as the Iraq Legation?
Mr. Allen. I believe so; yes.
Mr. Voorhis. What is the name of this Palestine convention that
was held ; do you know ?
Mr. Allen. It was called the World Convention for Palestine
Relief, or something like that. That is not the exact name of it,
but it was something on that order.
4032 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Allen, I think yon said that Mr. Chapman asked
you to call at the Arabian Embassy?
Mr. Allen. He did.
Mr. Voorhis. But you did not actually do it ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I would like to determine something
in regard to this picketing.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Thomas. How much were these pickets paid?
Mr. Allen. I believe they were paid $2 for each night.
Mr. Thomas. And did you yourself pay them ?
Mr. Allen. I gave the money to Mr. George, and he paid them.
Mr. Thomas. And you received that money from whom?
Mr. Allen. From Mr. Chapman.
Mr. Thomas. Now, you mentioned Miss Jemison. Was it not a
Miss Jemison that you mentioned before?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. A resident of Washington?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Thomas. Who is Miss Jemison ?
Mr. Allen. I understand she is the national secretary of the
American Indian Confederation.
Mr. Thomas. Is it not also true that she is an agitator of the
Indians?
Mr. Allen. Not to my knowledge. I do not think she is an agi-
tator.
Mr. Thomas. How long did you discuss matters with Miss Jemi-
son?
Mr. Allen. Oh, I think I was there possibly 20 or 30 minutes that
afternoon.
Mr. Thomas. And what did you discuss with Miss Jemison?
Mr. Allen. A matter concerning the file that she might have as
to the Palm Springs situation; in regard to the Indians in Palm
Springs.
Mr. Thomas. That is all.
Mr. Whitley. On this same trip, Mr. Allen, did you see Mr.
Deatherage at any time?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Where did you see him ?
Mr. Allex. At St. Albans, W. Va.
Mr. Whitley. You went there to visit him ?
Mr. Allen. I went there to visit him ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. How long did you remain with him in St. Albans?
Mr. Allen. One day.
Mr. Whitley. And what was the purpose of that trip?
Mr. Allen. Merely to discuss with him what progress had been
made on the Pacific coast.
Mr. Whitley. That was just a follow-up conversation on the ones
you had previously had with him on the coast in the preceding fall?
Mr. Allen. That is true.
Mr. Whitley. Did he at that time elaborate any upon this chart
which he had given you, or plans for setting up that organization?
Mr. Allen. No ; we never referred to it.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4033
Mr. Whitley. Incident ally, the official emblem of this organization,
which is to set up and organize this group as outlined on the chart, is
the swastika, is it not?
Mr. Allen. Well, I do not know as to that.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever seen any of the literature?
Mr. Allen. I have had some of their letterheads with the swastika.
I do not know whether they consider that as their official emblem or
not.
Mr. Whitley. Did Mr. Deatherage discuss that with you?
Mr. Allen. I never discussed that with Mr. Deatherage at all.
Mr. Whitley. Did you have any discussion with any individuals
affiliated with that group '.
Mr. Allen. Let me explain that the appearance of the swastika on
their stationery or otherwise came about after I had left St. Albans
and gone back to the Pacific coast. There were no swastikas in evi-
dence when I was there.
Mr. Whitley. There were not?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. But you have seen them on the literature of the
American Nationalist Confederation ?
Mr. Allen. Yes ; more recently.
The Chairman. Before we leave this picketing proposition, is it not
a fact that the bund on the coast has distributed pamphlets on the
Arabian-Palestine controversy? You have seen pamphlets?
Mr. Allen. I have seen pamphlets, but to my knowledge they are
not distributed by the bund.
The Chairman. Who distributes them?
Mr. Allen. Those are distributed by Mrs. Fry; a great number of
them.
The Chairman. And some of those pamphlets were sent to various
Negro leaders in the United States, were they not?
Mr. Allen. I have no knowledge of it.
The Chairman. You do not know about that?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Whitley. In addition to your activities in Washington and
your visit with George Deatherage on this trip, did you have a visit
with Gerald Winrod in Kansas?
Mr. Allen. On my way east, I think.
Mr. Whitley. On your way east you stopped ?
Mr. Allen. I stopped either on my way east or going back; I
don't recall which. I think it wras on my way east.
Mr. Whitley. How long did you visit with Mr. Winrod?
Mr. Allen. Between trains.
Mr. Whitley. Was that in accordance with instructions from Mrs.
Fry?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. It was just voluntary?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Was that the first time you had met Mr. Winrod?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. When was the occasion of your first meeting with
him?
4034 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. I met Mr. Winrod, I think, in 1935.
Mr. Whitley. And where was that meeting ?
Mr. Allen. That was in a church where he was speaking, in
Altadena, a suburb of Pasadena.
Mr. Whitley. What was the occasion of your visit with him on
this eastern trip which we are discussing?
Mr. Allen. I wanted to ask him in regard to the progress of his
campaign that he proposed to make for the Senate.
Mr. Whitley. Had you previously corresponded with him?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Had you exchanged literature with him?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Had you distributed some of his literature?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And he in turn had you send him literature of yours
to be distributed ?
Mr. Allen. Well, I don't think we ever sent him very much, but
there had been some exchange.
Mr. Whitley. And he had indicated interest in your problem- and
jour program?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you discuss your program or your plans with
him on the occasion of this visit to which we are referring?
Mr. Allen. Well, only in a general way.
Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of that discussion?
Mr. Allen. That I was working on the Pacific coast and for the
purpose of trying to coordinate the different groups there.
Mr. Whitley. And did he express sympathy with the program or
plans which you had?
Mr. Allen. He thought it was the proper thing to do.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, he was in accord with the program
and plans which you had ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you on this trip visit with any persons in Xew
York — on this same trip while you were, east ?
Mr. Allen. On this same trip?
Mr. Whitley. Yes. After leaving Washing on, did you go to Xew
York?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Whom did you meet there?
Mr. Allen. I had a very short visit with Mr. Edmondson.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Robert Edmondson?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of that visit?
Mr. Allen. It was more or less descriptive, in a general way, of
what we were trying to do on the Pacific coast.
Mr. Whitley. Had you ever met him before ?
Mr. Allen. I had never met him before.
Mr. Whitley. Had you had correspondence with him?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Had you seen his literature?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Had he sent you literature which he had prepared?
Mr. Allen. I had distributed much of his literature; yes, sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4035
Mi-. Whitley. Had you exchanged literature with him?
Mr. Allen. To some extent. We sent him what little we had.
Mr. Whitley. Did you discuss with him your program and plans?
Mr. Allen. In a general way. the same as with Mr. Winrod.
Mr. Whitley. Did he seem to be sympathetic and in accord with
your plans?
Mr. Allen. He was quite sympathetic.
Mr. Whitley. Was there any discussion with him with reference to
setting up an organization or affiliating with an organization whose
purpose was to bring all these groups into one big organization or
federation \
Mr. Alien. None that I recall, except that there was some plan afoot
at that time for the formation of an American nationalist confedera-
tion, or something like that.
Mr. Whitley. Party?
Mr. Allen. Party. Yes; not confederation, but party. He just
spoke briefly, in a general way, as to what that was. That was all.
Mr. Whitley. What was it?
Mr. Allen. Well, along the line of the usual work in coordinating
groups in the East.
Mr. Whitley. That wTas more or less the objective of all of these
individuals and groups, was it not, Mr. Allen — to work out some means,
some method, whereby they could all be brought together into one big
organization? Was not that more or less the ultimate plan or hope?
Mr. Allen. Well, I think in a general way that wTas what we all had
in mind, because that was really the sensible thing to think about.
Mr. Whitley. It was the proposition "In unity there is strength,"
and that if you have one big organization instead of a lot of small
organizations you have a much better chance to succeed?
Mr. Allen. We cannot fight Jewish communism with small units all
over the country.
Mr. Whitley. Did you visit with anyone else in New York?
Mr. Allen. I did. I called on Fritz Kuhn at his office.
Mr. Whitley. Did you present the letter of introduction which
had been written for you by Mr. Schwinn ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Why didn't you present it, Mr. Allen ?
Mr. Allen. I didn't have to.
Mr. Whitley. It was not necessary?
Mr. Allen. It was not necessary.
Mr. Whitley. He saw you without any letter of introduction?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Had he been advised in advance of your coming?
Mr. Allen. He did not know I was coming at all.
Mr. Whitley. How did you announce yourself in order to get an
audience with him?
Mr. Allen. He knows my name.
Mr. Whitley. He was familiar with your activities?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. He knew you had been cooperating with Schwinn
and Risse as the leaders on the west coast?
Mr. Allen. Not cooperating, but he knows the type of work we
try to do.
4036 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. And being sympathetic with them, he was glad to
grant you an audience?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you at the time of your interview and visit with
Kuhn tell him about your visit at the German Embassy in Wash-
ington ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; I do not recall that I even mentioned it.
Mr. Whitley. You did not think that would be of interest to him ?
Mr. Allen. Our conversation was very brief; I do not think I
talked to him more than 5 minutes. He seemed to be very busy. He
said he would like it if I would address a meeting of a new bund,
I think they call it, somewhere near Boston.
Mr. Whitley. Setting up a .new unit ?
Mr. Allen. He asked me if I would address them the next day.
Mr. Whitley. And of course, not knowing you previously — that
is, not knowing you personally — he was basing his view of you and
your abilities as a speaker on what he had heard from his men on
the west coast?
Mr. Allen. I do not know as to that.
Mr. Whitley. He would not invite a total stranger, whom he had
not previously met, to address the bund if he did not know some-
thing about you.
Mr. Allen. Of course, he knew me.
Mr. Whitley. He knew about your work and what you were
doing ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you discuss with him plans for further activities
on the west coast ?
Mr. Allen. I discussed no plans whatever with Fritz Kuhn.
Mr. Whitley. Just a purely social conversation ?
Mr. Allen. Just a few minutes' social conversation and then I left.
Mr. Whitley. Did he express his gratitude for the work you had
been doing out there ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you mention to him his leaders on the west coast ?
Mr. Allen. I mentioned Herman Schwinn and Arno Risse.
Mr. Whitley. And the fact that you had been in contact with them ?
Mr. Allen. He knew that.
Mr. Whitley. Did you address the meeting which he invited you to
address ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Was your contact with Edmondson and your contact
with Kuhn in keeping with instructions or plans made before you left
California ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That was just voluntary?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you see or talk to any other members of the bund
in New York on that occasion ?
Mr. Allen. Only those with whom I came in contact at Mr. Kuhn'a
office.
Mr. Whitley. Were any of those officials of the bund ?
ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4037
Mr. Allen. I do not think so.
Mr. Whitley. Did you write, or call up, or make an appointment in
advance?
Mr. Allen. I did not call at all ; I went up to see him.
Mr. Whitley. You just went up ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Where was his office?
Mr. Allen. I am not sure as to the exact address, but I think it is
on East Eighty-Fifth Street.
The Chairman. Was it a large office, and did he have a private
office ?
Mr. Allen. His own office was quite small.
The Chairman. He had a big reception room ?
Mr. Allen. No; there was a large room in which there wrere a
number of desks, and a number of men were sitting there writing.
The Chairman. How many men were sitting there ?
Mr. Allen. I think there were four or five.
The Chairman. Four or five men in the outer office?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. He had a secretary ?
Mr. Allen. There was no secretary in the inside office that I saw.
The Chairman. You saw a good many swastikas there, did you
not?
Mr. Allen. A number of swastikas.
The Chairman. They had swastikas on the wall, did they not?
Mr. Allen. I do not recall as to that, and I do not recall whether
they were hanging up there or not.
The Chairman. You did not see any swastikas there ?
Mr. Allen. I am sure I saw one swastika. As I recall, there was
one swastika there, with two large American flags there on one
wall.
The Chairman. Was that the German-American Bund office?
Mr. Allen. No; it was the office of the German-American Busi- !
ness Men's League, or something like that, as I remember. That is
what I recall.
Air. Whitley. That was at 178 East Eighty-fifth Street?
Mr. Allen. I think that wTas the address; I know it is on East
Eighty-fifth Street.
Air. Whitley. Who else did you contact while you were in New
York?
Mr. Allen. I do not recall contacting anybody else.
Mr. Whitley. Did you contact or interview any local officials?
Mr. Allen. Oh, yes" Not local officials; no. I made a call upon
Jeremiah Cross.
Mr. Whitley. What is his connection?
Mr. Allen. He is — I think he was at that time the State com-
mander of the American Legion.
Mr. Whitley. What was the purpose of that contact?
Mr. Allen. That was something in regard to making a protest
against an appointment or an election, or something or other, of
some Jewish Communist in Manhattan, as a local official; I do
not recall the name.
Mr. Whitley. Was the name Gerson?
94931— 39— vol. 6 22
4038 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. I called there to arrange with him, if pos-
sible, to make a definite and emphatic protest against the appoint-
ment or the election.
Mr. Whitley. Who had made that appointment?
Mr. Allen. Well, his superior; I do not recall his name now.
Mr. Whitley. What was the position to which Mr. Gerson had
been appointed?
Mr. Allen. It was some city administrator, or something like that.
Mr. Whitley. Borough president?
Mr. Allen. Borough president, that was it.
Mr. Whitley. Of what Borough?
Mr. Allen. Manhattan, I believe.
Mr. Whitley. Brooklyn or Manhattan \
Mr. Allen. Manhattan, I believe; yes.
Mr. Whitley. That apointment had just been made?
Mr. Allen. It had just been made.
Mr. Whitley. You wanted to support the protest \
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you enter any protest ; was any protest made \
Mr. Allen. Yes; I believe there was a demonstration made, or
Mr. Cross told me at that time that he was going to make, or the
American Legion, was going to make a formal protest, that the
American Legion
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether that was done or not?
Mr. Alien. I left it in his hands: I did not follow it up.
Mr. Whitley. You did suggest that such a protect be made I
Mr. Allen. I strongly suggested it; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you contact or confer with any one else while
you were in New York ?
Mr. Allen. I do not recall now that I did.
Mr. Whitley. Did you get in touch with any of the leaders of the
Arabian League ?
Mr. Allen. Yes; I called them the Arab League.
Mr. Whitley. Is that the league of which Mr. Peter George is the
head?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Whom did you talk to there ?
Mr. Allen. There were six or eight Arabs there, and I chatted for
a very few minutes. I could not talk much because I do not under-
stand the Arab language-
Mr. Whitley. What was the purpose of that call ?
Mr. Allen. Just a social call.
Mr. Whitley. Did you discuss plans with Mr. George ?
Mr. Allen. No; no plans, nothing except a social call.
Mr. Whitley. Did you tell any of these individuals or organiza-
tions that you were representing Mrs. Fry and her organization?
Mr. Allen. Mr. George knew that because Mr. George was a very
close friend of Mrs. Fry.
Mr. Whitley. Was it at her suggestion that you got in touch with
Mr. George?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir ; I believe it was.
Mr. Whitley. Did you confer with any one else in New York.
Mr. Allen. I think not.
Mi1. Whitley. Neither an individual nor an official of any organ-
ization?
UN-AMERIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4039
Mr. A 1. 1. in. Not that I can recall now.
Mr. Whitley. Did you see Mr. Sanctuary?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Incidentally, when you were in Washington, had
you conferred with Mr. James True before going to New York, while
you were here ?
Mr. Allen. I saw Mr. True; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did you see him on a number of occasions?
Mr. Allen. Several.
Mr. Whitley. Did he assist you in any way in carrying our your
plans?
Mr. Allen. Not at all.
Mr. Whitley. You discussed them?
Mr. Allen. I did: I told him what we were going to do.
Mr. Whitley. He was sympathetic?
Mr. Allen. He was sympathetic, possibly.
Mr. Whitley. Did you use his office as headquarters while you were
here '.
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; I received my mail there.
Mr. Whitley. Which means you were in close contact with him
during that period?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. After leaving New York on your trip, you went
to Chicago?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. This was while you wTere returning West?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. I never met the man.
The Chairman. All you know is you were instructed to see him?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you attempt to see him, or to contact him?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. Whitley. You were unsuccessful?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; he was away, out of the city.
Mr. Whitley. Who else did you see or attempt to see in Chicago ?
Mr. Allen. I saw a Dr. Uznanszky.
Mr. Whitley. Who is Dr. Uznanszky?
Mr. Allen. Dr. Uznanszky is a practicing physician in Chicago.
Mr. Whitley. It was on instructions from Mrs. Fry that you were
to see him?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You did not know him, and had not met him pre-
viously ?
Mr. Allen. Never saw him.
Mr. Whitley. What, is his connection ?
Mr. Allen. He is interested in the work.
Mr. Whitley. He is interested in your work?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Actively, or does he participate financially, make a
financial contribution?
Mr. Allen. I do not know as to that, except that he has a large
number of friends among the Polish people and is active in that
way, that is all.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he is connected with any or-
ganizations or groups?
Mr. Allen. That I could not say.
4040 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of your conversation with
him ?
Mr. Allen. Just asked him what work had been commenced in
that area.
The Chairman. Among the Poles?
Mr. Allen. Among the Poles ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. You mean work against the Jewish Communists ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. What did he tell }^ou they had done, what work?
Mr. Allen. A great deal of work had been done.
The Chairman. And that they had made very rapid progress?
Mr. Allen. Made very definite progress in that area.
The Chairman. Among the Poles?
Mr. Allen. Among the Polish people.
Mr. Thomas. Is this work particular work against the Jewish
Communists, or is it the Jewish people?
Mr. Allen. Primarily the Jewish Communists.
Mr. Thomas. But it is against the Jewish people, too, is it not?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; against only Jewish Communists and Jewish
communism.
Mr. Thomas. Is it against Communists who may not be Jewish
people ?
Mr. Allen. It is against any Communist.
Mr. Thomas. But you are always referring to it as Jewish com-
munism, you never refer to it otherwise; you say communism is
Jewish.
Let us straighten that out. I think we ought to develop that a
little bit.
The leaders of communism in this country are not Jewish, are
they ?
Mr. Allen. The leaders of communism in this country are Jewish.
Mr. Thomas. Take Earl Browder, for instance.
Mr. Allen. We do not look upon them as being leaders.
Mr. Thomas. You say Earl Browder is not a leader?
Mr. Allen. He is not a leader; we do not look upon Earl Browder
as being anything like the real leader of communism.
Mr. Thomas. Do you not think that many of these organizations,
Mr. Allen, are just as much opposed to the Jews as they are against
the Communists?
Mr. Allen. That is possibly so, hut when I say we do not look upon
Mr. Browder as being the leader, I refer to the real fountain-head of
communism in America, or in the world, and that is the Jewish Com-
mittee, the Jewish Agency, and the Jewish Labor Committee.
Mr. Thomas. At the same time, you do admit that these organiza-
tions are opposed to the Jewish people?
Mr. Allen. Which, the Communist organizations?
Mr. Thomas. No ; all these organizations which you referred to in
your testimony.
Mr. Allen. Only insofar — I want to be straightened out on this,
because I have no animosity against the Jewish people, as Jewish
people, but only insofar as their identity is concerned with com-
munism.
Mr. Thomas. Do you contend that some of these organizations you
refer to would welcome Jewish people into their organizations?
Mr. Allen. I think not.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4041
Mr. Thomas. Exactly, not one of them would accept one Jew,
whether he is a Communist or not, and you know it.
Mr. Allen. We do not accept Jews in any organization in this
work, because of their racial characteristics and their connections
with Jewry.
Mr. Thomas. That is just what I wanted to clear up; none of those
units would accept a Jewish person in their organization, regardless
of what their political faith might be.
Mr. Allen. No, sir; because they have learned that to admit one
Jew will wreck the organization.
The Chairman. Do you contend that a majority of Jews are Com-
munists \
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
The Chairman. Just a small minority?
Mr. Allen. As to that I do not know, except that the Jewish com-
mittee
The Chairman. I am asking you; you just said that a majority are
not Communists.
Mr. Allen. I do not think the majority are,
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you do not think they are; a
majority of them are not Communists, are they?
Mr. Allen. Any Jew who belongs to any
The Chairman. I am asking you ; are the majority of Jews, in your
opinion. Communists ?
Mr. Allen. I believe they are.
The Chairman. A majority of them ?
Mr. Allen. I believe they are.
Mr. Mason. That is a very significant statement, because there are
seven or eight million Jews in the United States, and there are prob-
ably less than one-tenth of 1 percent Communists. That is far from
being a majority. A majority would mean about 3.500,000 or more
of Jews that are Communists, when the testimony that we had before
our committee is to the effect that there are not that man}' Communists
in the United States, as a matter of fact,
Mr. Allen. May I qualify that statement by saying Jewish leaders.
The Chairman. Do you maintain that the majority of Jews are
Communists ?
Air. Allen. Not of the Jewish race,
The Chairman. I am talking about the Jewish race.
Mr. Allen. No ; I do not believe that.
The Chairman. You believe that only a small minority are Com-
munists ?
Mr. Allen. My attack is made solely on the Jewish leaders.
The Chairman. That would be only a few.
Mr. Allen. All right : a very few.
The Chairman. Would you condemn a whole race on account of the
actions of a few leaders ?
Mr. Allen. Xo, sir.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, 3-011 are anti-Jewish, whether
they are Communists or not.
Mr. Allen. Personally, I am; yes.
Mr. Mason. That is the answer.
The Chairman. Let me ask you another question, and I want you
to be very precise in your answer. You have described your visits to
4042 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Park.
Mr.
Mr.
Baroi
Mr,
the German Embassy here and the Italian Embassy, and your mailing
of this letter to the Rumanian Embassy.
As a matter of fact, you have had other contacts with Italian and
German consulates in other parts of the country, have you not \
Mr. Allen. No. sir.
The Chairman. You never have talked to any Italian and German
consuls?
Mr. Allen. Not with any of them except the German consul in Los
Angeles.
The Chairman. You have been on intimate terms with him I
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
The Chairman. And visited him at his home I
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
The Chairman. You have talked to him about your work?
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. You mean you never discussed with the German
consul your work against the Jewish Communists?
Mr. Allen. Never ; never had any occasion to.
The Chairman. You only talked to him socially?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Where did you meet him, at the German House?
Mr. Allen. He was out there at the time.
The Chairman. He was out there to attend a meeting?
Mr. Allen. No; I do not think so. I think I met him there when
I was out there buying literature
Mr.
Mr,
Mr
that <
Mr
Mr
Los i
Mr
Mr
Mr
man '
Mr
you a
" Mr
Mr
Mi
Mi
The Chairman. He had nothing to do with the literature, but
just happened to be there ?
Mr. Allen. Just happened to be there.
The Chairman. You just said, "How do you do?" and he saidr
"How do you do?" and you talked about insignificant matters? ''y
Mr. Allen. Very casual conversation with him.
The Chairman. And he never said anything about your work, and
you never said anything about his work? . *]m
Mr. Allen. Nothing whatever.
The Chairman. Did you ever meet the Italian representative
there ? ^
Mr. Allen. Never. ™8
The Chairman. Have you ever met the German consul or the
Italian consul at any other place besides the west coast and here in Mr
Washington? Iffll
Mr. Allen. Not that I recall.
The Chairman. You have heard him talk at some of these meet- *
ings? Mr
Mr. Allen. Not at any meeting I ever attended. Mr
The Chairman. Not at a bund meeting or a Silver Shirt meeting?
Mr. Allen. No. sir. Gag
Mr. Voorhis. You never met Fritz Weideman, the consul general
at San Francisco? tot!
Mr. Allen. No, sir. Mi
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, did you not attend an official I , Mi
meeting for Baron von Killinger?
Mr. Allen. No. ^o
Mr. Whitley. You did not attend that meeting in San Francisco?
Mr. Allen. No, sir: never. ^1
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4043
Mr. Whitley. Have you attended bund outings?
Mr. Allen. I think not.
Mr. Whitley. Ar which consuls were present and spoke?
Mr. Allen. I have atl ended, I think, two picnics a1 Hindenburg
Park.
Mr. Whitley. Outside of Los Angeles?
Mr. Allen. Near Los Angeles, and upon one of those occasions
Baron Killinger spoke.
Mr. Whitley. You also made a speech, did you not?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You did not -peak?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did not the consul in Los Angeles also speak on
that occasion '.
Mr. Allen. Yes. I believe he did.
Mr. Whitley. The consul from San Francisco and the consul from
Los Angeles were both present and both spoke?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What was the occasion for this celebration?
Mr. Allen. It was some sort of a national feast day for the Ger-
man people.
Mr. Whitley. They were both present on both of those outings
you attended and both spoke?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. They were bund outings?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Sponsored by the German-American Bund?
Mr. Allen. Surely.
Mr. Voorhis. As to this Palestine business, do you believe that all
the Jewish people that go to Palestine are Communists, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. Oh. no.
Mr. Voorhis. Where do you think the Jewish people should go?
I mean if you do not think they should go to Palestine and you do
not think they should be in Germany or in Italy, I assume you are
opposed to their being in the United States?
Mr. Allen. We have a large island off of the coast of Africa called
Madagascar.
Mr. Voorhis. That answers my question.
Mr. Mason. I want to ask you one or two general questions, and
I am interested in your reaction.
In your own mind, you feel, do you. that you are a loyal, patriotic
supoorter of our American form of government?
Mr. Allen. I most certainly do.
Mr. Mason. Do you believe that under our American form of gov-
ernment minorities have rights that should be respected under our
Constitution, such as free speech, the right to vote, if they are citi-
zens, and the right to hold office, if they are citizens; you believe
that ?
Mr. Allen. I certainly do.
Mr. Mason. If you believe that minorities under our Constitution,
have these rights, whether it be a racial minority, or a religious
minority, or a political minority, how can you square that with the
idea, or objective you have, that we must get rid of all Jews from
the Federal Government departments, and so forth.
4044 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. Because many of us believe that Jews in the Federal
Government are wrecking the country.
Mr. Mason. Are wrecking the country because you feel that they
are communistically inclined?
Mr. Allen. Not necessarily ; no.
Mr. Mason. But you feel that, regardless they are Communists,
or not, if they have an active part in the official life of the Gov-
ernment that they will wreck the Government?
Mr. Allen. We can see in the .Jews in the present Government, in
the Roosevelt administration, the carrying out of the Protocol plan,
if you know what that is.
Mr. Mason. Of course. I have heard what that is, but I know per-
sonally many Jewish people not only in the Federal Government but
in the local and State governments that make excellent officials, and
they are certainly not wrecking the Government.
Mr. Allen. The exception probably proves the rule.
The Chaieman. That is a question that neither this committee nor
any other committee can ever solve with respect to the Jewish race.
(Thereupon, the committee adjourned to meet tomorrow, Wednes-
day, August 23, 1939, at 10 a. m.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
l'er- WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 23, 1939
t but
House of Representatives,
Special Committee to Investigate
Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. G.
The committee met at 10 : 30 a. m., in the Caucus Room, House
Office Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding.
Present : Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order. You may call
your next witness, Mr. Whitley.
Mr. Whitley. I will call Mr. Gardner.
TESTIMONY OF FRASER GARDNER
(The witness was duly sworn.)
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, will you state your full name and
address for the record ?
Mr. Gardner. Fraser Gardner; 229 Bond Building.
Mr. Whitley. What is your occupation?
Mr. Gardner. Political research.
Mr. Whitley. Are you presently employed?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You are presently employed?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. In what capacity?
Mr. Gardner. Several; one, for Congressman Harry R. Sheppard,
of California, in a civic survey in the District of Columbia, for the
feasibility of setting up a dispensary system in the District of Co-
lumbia.
Mr. Whitley. What is your address as you gave it to the re-
porter? I could not hear it.
Mr. Gardner. 229 Bond Building.
Mr. Whitley. What is your residence address?
Mr. Gardner. I do not care to give it.
The Chairman. You decline to give it?
Mr. Gardner. I do not think it is pertinent, Mr. Dies.
The Chairman. That is an immaterial matter; what objection
would you have to giving your residence address? It is Wisconsin
Avenue, is it not?
Mr. Gardner. Yes ; you have it on file.
The Chairman. What is the number?
Mr. Whitley. 3224 Wisconsin Avenue.
4045
4046 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. 3224 Wisconsin Avenue; you may proceed.
Mr. "Whitley. Mr. Gardner, will you repeat your business address?
Mr. Gardner. 229 Bond Building.
Mr. Whitley. In the Bond Building?
Mr. Gardner. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, were you during February of this year
an applicant for a position as an investigator for this committee?
Mr. Gardner. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. Did you file a formal application blank \
Mr. Gardner. I did.
Mr. Whitley. And on that blank you set out your experience and
qualifications ?
Mr. Gardner. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. Did you appear before this committee at that time
for examination with reference to your application ?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And at that time you testified under oath with refer-
ence to your connections, past and present, and your qualifications for
the position sought ; is that correct ?
Mr. Gardner. That is right,
Mr. Whitley. At that time you testified that you had no connec-
tions which would keep you from serving this committee to the best
of your ability.
Mr. Gardner. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. And you have just again testified with reference to
the possibility of a position and the fact that you had no connections
of any kind with interests with which this committee is concerned.
Mr. Gardner. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, you have no connections which
would prevent yon from serving this committee properly.
Mr. Gardner. That is correct, in my estimation.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, have you at any time recently con-
tacted any parties, at which time you advised them that you had an
inside track, that you had confidential sources of information with
reference to this committee's work ?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. You have not?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. You have not advised anyone in that connection?
Mr. Gardner. No; never.
Mr. Whitley. You have not stated to anyone that you had contacts
with this committee which would enable you to furnish very confi-
dential information?
Mr. Gardner. Never.
Mr. Whitley. And you have not offered to sell to anyone confiden-
tial information
Mr. Gardner (interposing). Never.
Mr. Whitley. Coming from this committee?
Mr. Gardner. Never.
Mr. Whitley. You have not?
Mr. Gardner. Never.
Mr. Whitley. At any time. As a matter of fact, Mr. Gardner, did
you not go to the office of Mr. Sullivan, George E. Sullivan, an attor-
ney here in Washington, and inform him that you had inside sources
of information with this committee?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4047
Mr. Gardner. I did not.
Mr. Whitley. Please let me finish the question; and that yo;ii
would be glad, or that you could sell that information to any persons
who might be interested in getting it?
Mr-. Gardner. I did not.
Mr. Whitley. You did not?
Mr. Gardner. I did not.
Mr. Whitley. You did not make such a proposition?
Mr. Gardner. Never.
Mr. Whitley. At any time?
Mr. Gardner. Never.
Mr. Whitley. You never made that to Mr. Sullivan or to anyone
else?
Mr. Gardner. Never.
Mr. Whitley. Here in your examination before this committee
in connection with your application in February, Mr. Gardner, you
.-tared, in answer to the question:
Did you ever investigate nazi-ism or fascism before the last year?
You answered:
I was in charge of the work really for the organization of the American
Protective League.
What is that organization?
Mr. Gardner. What is it?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Gardner. It does not exist at the moment. It was a revival
of the original American Protective League that operated during the
World War. We revived it in November of 1937 with offices in the
Washington Building. The original objectives of the American
Protective League were to work with the Department of Justice,
which they did, with the permission of the Department of Justice;
they collaborated.
The revival had no connection with the Department of Justice.
We did not ask for their support. We offered to turn over any
evidence that we might secure. We did not ask for any collabora-
tion on their part, because we had understood since October 1925
that the Department of Justice could not investigate such civic mat-
ters, civil matters, as communism or any other subversive forces;
that anything they did would be sub rosa. Therefore, we were sort
of on our own.
The project was short-lived due to consternation in the ranks. Too
many people wanted to drive the buggy and it wound up getting no
place.
Mr. Whitley. You are not suggesting that the Department of
Justice or any branch of it had anything to do with this proposed
revival ?
Mr. Gardner. I definitely said it did not.
Mr. Whitley. I see. It was purely a private project?
Mr. Gardner. Surely. During the war it had the support of
the Department of Justice. Our enterprise did not.
Mr. Whitley. That old, war-time organization, has been dead for
many years, has it not?
Mr. Gardner. It went out of existence when the — shortly after
the war ended.
4048 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, have you represented to any persons
when these hearings started that you were in a position to fur-
nish confidential information?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. You sort of held yourself out around here as an
inside tipster on the affairs of this committee ?
Mr. Gardner. Hardly.
Mr. Whitley. Is it not a fact that a week ago, when this com-
mittee resumed its hearings, you told two reporters you could give
them a good story, and you stated that Congressman Allen was
going to be appointed to this committee to fill the vacancy caused by
Mr. Healey's resignation?
Mr. Gardner. That is common talk on the hill.
Mr. Whitley. Did you present that as inside or confidential in-
formation or did you just repeat it
Mr. Gardner. I repeated it. It is common talk.
Mr. Whitley. You did not offer that as a tidbit
Mr. Gardner. There was nothing confidential about it, was there?
Mr. Whitley. Was it at that time?
Mr. Gardner. I do not see why it would be.
Mr. Whitley. Was it being discussed at that time?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. What was that date?
Mr. Gardner. About a week ago.
Mr. Whitley. About a week ago.
Mr. Thomas. What day. have you got the day ?
Mr. Whitley. That was the 16th.
Mr. Thomas. Is that the day you mentioned it to the two reporters?
Mr. Gardner. The day the hearings started, Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Thomas. I see.
Mr. Gardner. On Wednesday, I believe the 16th, was not that right?
Mr. Whitley. That is right. Now, is it not true that you also
handed out some so-called or alleged inside tips around here on a
good story to the effect that some big patriotic groups were going to
file an injunction suit to stop the work of this committee?
Mr. Gardner. That is not verbatim, but practically words to the
effect ; I said that I had heard — I will repeat that — that there had been
lawyers retained in Washington to file some form of civil action
against the Dies committee.
Mr. Whitley. Where did you hear that, or from whom?
Mr. Gardner. I heard that in a lunchroom.
Mr. Whitley. In a lunchroom; you just overheard a conversation?
Mr. Gardner. Yes; and in repeating it to the reporters I told them
that if I heard any more to substantiate that I would let them know.
One of the chaps is this fellow here [indicating], Humphreys.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, you told them the story was not
quite ready to break yet, but you would keep them advised?
Mr. Gardner. In other words, it was not a confidential tip. par-
ticularly. It was something that was unconfirmed and I advanced it
on that basis, and if I heard any more it would be interesting, surely.
Mr. Whitley. You say you have never represented to anyone, di-
rectly or indirectly, that you had any inside sources of information?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. Insofar as this committee is concerned ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4049
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. Is it not a fact that you also informed certain parties
around the hearing here, or in connection with the hearing, that Fritz
Kuhn and General Krivitsky were going to be witnesses before this
committee?
Mr. Gardner. I did not know that.
Mr. Whitley. That was just a speculation on your part?
Mr. Gardner. I did not make the statement.
Mr. Whitley. You did not make the statement ?
Mr. Gardner. No; I did not make the statement.
Mr. Whitley. What was your reference to those two individuals?
Mr. Gardner. I never made reference to them. On Wednesday
morning, the 16th of this month, at 20 minutes of 10 in Mr. Dies' pri-
vate ofliee. I asked him who was going to be on the mat this morning,
and he said I would know at 10 o'clock.
Mr. Whitley. And you did not tell any one that, by way of a
prediction — that Fritz Kuhn and General Krivitsky were going to
be called '.
Mr. Gardner. Hardly that, when Walter Winchell published it a
month ago. that Krivitsky was going to be here.
Mr. Whitley. And when Kuhn did come into the room a few
minutes later to take the stand, did you advise any one, "I told
37ou so," by way of confirming the inside information that you had
given out?
Mr. Gardner. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Whitley. Not to your knowledge?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. Is it not a fact that you gave out the story as inside
information to a columnist in Washington to the effect that Con-
gressman Allen was going to be appointed to the vacancy on this
committee?
The Chairman. What columnist?
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Robert Allen, of the Washington Merry-Go-
Round.
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. You did not?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. You did not give that out as confidential informa-
tion from the committee?
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question at this
point. Mr. Gardner, have you seen Mr. Allen to talk to within the
past 2 weeks ?
Mr. Gardner. Mr. Thomas, I would not know Mr. Allen if I saw
him.
Mr. Thomas. Have you made any attempt to contact Mr. Allen
in the past 2 weeks?
Mr. Gardner. No; I do not know him. I have no basis to ap-
proach him. There is nothing I could approach him on, because I
have nothing in common with him.
Mr. Thomas. Do you know Mr. Pearson ?
Mr. Gardner. Drew Pearson?
Mr. Thomas. Yes.
Mr. Gardner. Not personally.
Mr. Thomas. Have you contacted him in the past 2 weeks?
4050 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gardner. No; I have never contacted Drew Pearson. I know
who he is. I know something of his background, and I know some-
thing of his writings, but I do not know anything about him par-
ticularly and, as far as meeting him and talking with him are con-
cerned, I have been in Washington 18 years and you get to know
who's who, but you do not always meet them.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, did you testify this morning just a
few minutes ago in executive session that you would still be in-
terested in securing a position as investigator with this committee?
Mr. Gardner. A few minutes ago; yes.
Mr. AVhitley. And at that time you were questioned, and you
stated that you had no connections of any kind, present or past,
which would prevent you from serving the best interests of this
committee.
Mr. Gardner. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. You stated that you had no connections of any
kind, past or present, with the German- American Bund.
Mr. Gardner. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. Or with any Nazi or Fascist groups, and specifically
you stated you had no connections with Mr. Pelley or his Silver
Shirts?
Mr. Gardner. I have nothing to do with Mr. Pelley or his Silver
Shirts.
Mr. Whitley. I have some telegrams here, Mr. Garner. Here is
a telegram dated March 9, 1939, from Asheville, N. C, addressed to
Fraser Gardner, Emerson 0130. Washington, I). C.
Do you know that phone number?
Mr." Gardner. That is my phone number.
Mr. Whitley. The telegram reads :
Check mailed you today. Our friend will contact you and Dave Monday.
Signed "Skyland Press."
Will you explain that telegram to the committee, Mr. Gardner?
Mr. Gardner. Surely. An attorney in Washington asked me to
conduct some research work for the Skyland Press organization;
I do not know whether it is a corporation or not, to be frank.
Mr. Whitley. What is the Skyland Press?
Mr. Gardner. I presume it is a publishing organization; I do not
know. I have never been there.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, it is Mr. Pelley 's publishing
corporation, is it not?
Mr. Gardner. I have never seen anything to that effect.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether that is Mr. Pelley's.
Mr. Gardner. I do not ; because I have never seen it.
Mr. Whitley. Who was the attorney who requested you to conduct
some investigation for the Skyland Press?
Mr. Gardner. A former assistant to the Attorney General in
charge of espionage during the war, David Babp.
Mr. Whitley. Is he a Washington attorney?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. He asked you to conduct some investigation or
research \
Mr. Gardner. It did not necessarily come under the category of
investigation, but research work.
Mr. Whitley. Research work for the Skyland Pro- '.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4051
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Of Asheville, N. C?
Mi'. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And did you conduct thai research?
Mr. Gardner. Surely.
Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of the research?
Mr. Gardner. Immigration.
Mr. Whitley. Immigration?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you sent them the results of your research?
Mr. Gardner. Well, quite frequently I passed that to Mr. Babp.
Mr. Whitley. Then this telegram has to do with your remunera-
tion for that work?
Mr. Gardner. Surely.
The Chairman. As I understand, he did not know Mr. Pelley was
connected with it. and he had no connection with Mr. Pelley.
Mr. Whitley. That is right. He had so testified under oath on two
occasions. What was the amount of that check, do you recall?
Mr. Gardner. What was the date of it ?
Mr. Whitley. The telegram is dated Asheville, N. C, 3-9-39.
Mr. Gardner. I am not sure, hut I would say somewhere between
$50 and $75. I am not sure.
Mr. Whitley. And you turned the results of -your research over to
Mr. Babp \
Mr. Gardner. I do not know about that particular date. I say at
times I did.
Mr. Whitley. At times you did?
Mr. Gardner. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know in this instance whether you turned
it over to him or direct to the Sky land Press ; you do not recall ?
Mr. Gardner. I do not think I ever did send anything to them down
there. They were quite frequently interested in knowing the trend of
immigration legislation: the number of persons migrating to this
country, and what port of entry they might have had ; their nationality ;
and a good deal of the research was conducted in line with the many,
many immigration measures that were dropped in in the past year.
Mr. Whitley. As far as this particular telegram is concerned, you
do not remember specifically what the research was, except that it was
along that line, and you conducted the research at the request of Mr.
David Babp. a Washington attorney, who represents the Skyland
Press ?
Mr. Gardner. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. How do you spell Mr. Babp's name?
Mr. Gardner. B-a-b-p.
Mr. Whitley. And you do not recall whether you turned the resnlts
of that research over to him or sent it to them directly?
Mr. Gardner. Not at that particular time. It is of no importance
as long as they got it and I got paid for it.
Mr. Whitley. In any event, this had to do with a check which they
sent you for that research ?
The Chairman. Is that the only connection he ever had with the
Skyland Press or Pelley \
Mr. Whitley. Do you know the identity of any of the officers or
individuals connected with the Skyland Press?
4052 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gardner. No. The money order was signed, if I remember
correctly, Talpey.
Mr. Whitley. How do you spell Talpey ?
Mr. Gardner. I believe T-a-1-p-e-y.
Mr. Whitley. But you were just working for the Skyland Press;
you did not know what they did or who their connections were?
Mr. Gardner. Well, it is in line with my general activities. If
someone on the Hill asks me to do something, I would go ahead and
do it. It is income. The request was not unusual. There was not
anything unethical about it or illegal.
Mr. Whitley. But you did not know the identity of your client?
Mr. Gardner. Xo. I do not know who the officers of that corpora-
tion are, if it is a corporation. I have done a lot of legal research
for lawyers, and I did not ask. who their clients were.
Mr. Whitley. Another telegram dated Asheville, N. C, May 17,
addressed to Fraser Gardner, 3224 Wisconsin Avenue NW. ; Emerson
0430, Washington, D. C:
Detained here until Thursday night.
Signed "W. D."
Do you know who "W. D." is?
Mr. Gardner. No; I do not.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, it is William Dudley Pelley,
and you know it, Mr. Gardner.
Mr. Gardner. Xo; I do not know it.
Mr. Whitley. You have just testified you did not know the iden-
tity of any one connected with the Skyland Press.
Mr. Gardner. But I do not know that.
Mr. Whitley. The return address on this telegram is "Skyland
Press," and the telegram is signed "W. D."
Mr. Thomas. What is the date of that telegram?
Mr. Whitley. It is dated May 17, 1939.
Mr. Thomas. Do you mean to say you do not know from whom
that telegram came when you received it May 17, 1939?
Mr. Gardner. I am not sure, Mr. Thomas. I know that there are
an awfully large number of people connected with that organization,
and I do not know what they are.
Mr. Thomas. How many telegrams do you get in the course of a
day?
Mr. Gardner. In the course of a day I do not get many.
Mr. Thomas. You do not get many. Here is a telegram signed
"W. D." You must know who W. D. is. Be frank about it.
Mr. Gardner. I am not sure.
Mr. Thomas. Who do you think it was?
Mr. Gardner. Well, it would be any one of a dozen people down
there.
Mr. Thomas. Name some of those others whom it might have
been.
Mr. Gardner. It could be anyone. Their officers use different
names to my knowledge, which I found out.
Mr. Whitley. You said you did not know any of their officers.
Mr. Gardner. I do not know them. I have never met the officers
at Asheville, N. C. I have never been in Asheville.
Mr. Whitley. Or met them at any place. This says, ''Detained
here until Thursday night."
ago«
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4053
Mr. Gardner. I met the follow that draws these cartoons on
Liberation.
Mr. Whitley. What does that mean, "Detained here until Thurs-
day night/' Why was W. D. having to advise you that he was
detained at Asheville until Thursday night if you did not know who
he was or anvthing about him.
Mr. Gardner. If I recall correctly, there was some emissary of
that organization coming to Babp's office for a conference relative to
the final wind-up of the immigration bills in Congress.
Mr. Whitley. Why did he wire you directly if you did not know
him or anything about him? Why did he not wire Mr. Babp if that
was the case? If he was going to see Mr. Babp why did he not wire
him that he was detained at Asheville?
Mr. Gardner. It is possible for the organization to be very much
abreast of any of my activities on the immigration work and they
would wire me direct. There is nothing unusual about that, that I
could see.
Mr. Whitley. You did not know any of them personally. You
just knew that you were getting some material for the Sky land Press.
Why would the Skyland Press send you a telegram like this if you
did not know any of the officers? It is not signed "Skyland Press."
It is signed, "W. D.," and the return address in the lower left-hand
corner is "Skyland Press."
Mr. Gardner. May I complete something that I started a moment
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Gardner. I met the chap who draws these cartoons on the front
of Liberation. I have had occasion to go into the pressrooms and
read Liberation. I have never seen the Skyland Press.
Mr. Whitley. The pressrooms where?
Mr. Gardner. Here.
Mr. Whitley. Here ?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. I did not suggest you had seen Skyland Press.
Mr. Gardner. Just let me finish now. I never did know what the
connection was, but I had an idea that there was a connection, as time
marched on.
Mr. Whitley. A connection between what ?
Mr. Gardner. Between Liberation and the Skyland Press.
Mr. Whitley. You began to suspect that?
Mr. Gardner. It says in Liberation that it is the Pelley Publishers.
It does not say anything about Skyland Press.
Mr. Whitley. But you began to suspect that maybe there might
be a connection?
Mr. Gardner. Well, I met the chap who draws the cartoons on the
front of Liberation and he used several different initials and names,
and I have talked with him on one or two occasions.
Mr. Whitley. What was his name?
Mr. Gardner. Cumings.
Mr. Whitley. Cummings?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Would there be an occasion for Mr. Cummings to
wire you, "Detained here until Thursday night," and sign it "W. D."?
Mr. Gardner. It could be.
94931— 39— vol. 6 23
4054 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. It could be ?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Whitley, I had not finished my questions.
Mr. Whitley. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Gardner, at the same time you said that it might
be any one of a dozen ?
Mr. Gardner. Because I understand
Mr. Thomas. Who are some of the others ?
Mr. Gardner. I do not know their names, Mr. Thomas, but I un-
derstand there are something like 30 employees in the organization.
Mr. Thomas. What organization 1
Mr. Gardner. In this Skyland Press.
Mr. Thomas. And it might be any 1 of those 30 ?
Mr. Gardner. I do not know., I have never been down there. I do
not know the people.
Mr. Thomas. When you received this telegram signed "W. D."
what did you do about it ?
Mr. Gardner. I looked where it came from and I figured it was
another somebody from that organization.
Mr. Thomas. Did you not make any inquiry as to who it might be ?
Mr. Gardner. I was not concerned. There is not anything for any-
body to be concerned about. I just knew from one point to another
point ; and the first point I recognized was that I am being advised
somebody was coming to see me.
Mr. Thomas. And that person did come to see you I
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Who was that person?
Mr. Gardner. Hy Cummings, the fellow who draws the cartoons
on Liberation.
Mr. Thomas. And you concluded he sent the telegram signed
"W. D."?
Mr. Gardner. I was reading the Secret Armies here a week ago
Mr. Thomas. Never mmd about the Secret Armies at this time.
Mr. Gardner. It is in relation to the same thing. It is in relation
to this.
Mr. Thomas. Did you ask him whether he had sent that tele-
gram to you?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Thomas. You did not make any inquiry of him as to whether
he sent the telegram to you?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Thomas. Do you know to this day who sent you that telegram ?
Mr. Gardner. No ; I just knew it came from the Skyland Press.
Mr. Whitley. Another telegram, Mr. Gardner, dated March 24,
1939, at Asheville, N. C, addressed to Fraser Gardner, 3224 Wis-
consin Avenue NW., Washington, D. C. :
Important visitors here. Cannot leave before Sunday night. Pennsylvania
appointment is for Thursday anyhow. Sending your package to home special
delivery.
(Signed) W. D. P.
The return address is 4810 Skyland Press. Do you have any idea
who W. D. P. might be?
Mr. Gardner. In the connection it is only logical that that would
be W. D. Pelley. It could be many people, but in the connection
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4055
Mr. Whitley. That would be a reasonable assumption, would it
nor '. As a matter of fact, you know it is William Dudley Pelley, don't
you. Mr. Gardner? Von are under oath, recall.
Mr. Gardner. I know that it is.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
Important visitors here. Cannot leave before Sunday night. Pennsylvania
appointment is for Thursday anyhow.
What appointment? Why is he wiring you about an appointment?
Mr. Gardner. Immigration.
Mr. Whitley. Immigration?
Mr. Gardner. Yes; refugees: I think you have seen it written up
iu Liberation any number of times.
Mr. Whiley. But you still say you do not know anyone connected
with the Skyland Press.
Mr. Gardner. I do not remember that particular telegram.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Gardner. Surely.
Mr. Whitley. You say you know him and you have done work for
Mr. Pelley \
Mr. Gardner. Immigration work.
Mr. Whitley. Immigration work?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Research work?
Mr. Gardner. It started off
Mr. Whitley. Why did you not say so a few minutes ago?
Mr. Gardner. What do you mean "say so"? I did the work foi
the Skyland Press. If he has got his hands in that I have nothing
to do with that ; that is possible.
Mr. Whitley. You know, as a matter of fact, that 'he has his
hands in it, do you not?
Mr. Gardner. I am becoming very much convinced of that.
Mr. Whitley. What is the package that he was sending you special
delivery, to which he refers here?
Mr. Gardner. What is the date of the telegram?
Mr. Whitley. March 24, 1939.
Mr. Thomas. Be very frank, Mr. Gardner, because it is going to go
hai'd with you, and you might as well make it as easy for yourself as
you possibly can. Be very frank. That is my suggestion to you.
Mr. Whitley. What is the package referred to in Mr. Pelley's tele-
gram to you of March 24, 1939?
Mr. Gardner. I do not remember, Mr. Whitley.
Mr. Whitley. You do not recall ?
Mr. Gardner. No ; I do not, at that particular date.
Mr. Whitley. Has he been sending you packages rather regularly ?
Mr. Gardner. He sent me a book, which I have, and would be glad
to bring down for you or send for it. That came as a package.
Mr. Whitley. As a package ?
Mr. Gardner. And it was autographed. I believe the title name
of it was "The Door to Revelation."
Mr. Whitley. That was a large book?
Mr. Gardner. No; normal size, standard.
Mr. Whitley. You think that might be the package referred to?
Mr. Gardner. I am not sure.
4056 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. You apparently were expecting the package, or he
would not have mentioned it. He did not describe the package. He
merely says, "Sending- your package to home, special delivery." Were
you waiting for a package, expecting one ? What was the package. Mr.
Gardner? Tell us.
Mr. Gardner, I think I told you I was not sure. If I was sure, I
would tell you. I do not mind telling you anything.
Mr. Whitley. You have not had many packages from him. Tell us
what some of them contained. You said one of them was an auto-
graphed book from Mr. Pelley.
Mr. Gardner. Yes. And lie sent me copies of everything they have
ever published.
Mr. Whitley. Copies of Liberation ?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Copies of pamphlets ?
Mr. Gardner. Yes. I still have them.
Mr. Whitley. Did he send them to you in quantities for distri-
bution ?
Mr. Gardner. No. I have never distributed anything for William
Dudley Pelley, the Liberation, the Silver Shirts, or any organization
in America.
Mr. Whitley. Why was this particular package being sent special
delivery to your home ? Is there any reason for that ?
Mr. Gardner. I do not recall.
Mr. Whitley. You do not recall ?
Mr. Gardner. I really do not recall.
Mr. Whitley. Was he in the habit of sending packages to you
special delivery?
Mr. Gardner. That is the way they do things.
Mr. Whitley. That is the way they do things ?
Mr. Gardner. Special delivery, or telephone or telegraph.
Mr. Whitley. High speed ?
Mr. Gardner. More or less.
Mr. Whitley. Now, this telegram : "Important visitors here. Can-
not leave before Sunday night Pennsylvania." Does that mean he is
leaving on a Pennsylvania train ?
Mr. Gardner. I do not know.
Mr. Whitley. "Appointment is for Thursday, anyhow." Appoint-
ment with whom? What was the appointment he was referring to?
Mr. Gardner. I really do not know.
Mr. Whitley. You had an appointment with him, some appoint-
ment you had made to see him?
Mr. Gardner. I never made an appointment to see him, to my
knowledge.
Mr. Whitley. Did he make an appointment to see you?
Mr. Gardner. I have met him in the office of the attorney.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Babp?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitney. And you have never had an appointment with him
yourself ?
Mr. Gardner. A personal appointment?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Gardner. No; never saw him on any occasion unless someone
else was present.
«,I
iistri-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4057
Mr. Whitley. Yon have had an appointment with him?
Mr. Gardner. No private appointments.
Mr. Whitley. The fact that someone else was present still would
not take it out of the category of an appointment, would it, Mr.
Gardner '.
Mr. Gardner. But it lias a great deal to do with the slut us of t he-
appointment. I never had a private conference or appointment with
William D. Pelley.
Mr. Whitley. You say you have had no conference
Mr. Gardner (interposing). No; I say I have had a conversation
with him.
Mr. Whitley. And the statement in this telegram with reference
to appointments being for Tuesday ; do you know what that refers to?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. Or anything about it. You do not recall what the
package was that he thought was important enough to wire you he
was sending to you special delivery?
Mr. Gardner. Well, he sends me copies of books.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Gardner. And usually lets me know
The Chairman. Does he always wire you in advance of sending
them ?
Mr. Whitley. Does he always wire in advance?
Mr. Gardner. The Liberation; he sends me copies of the Libera-
tion, special delivery ; 9 times out of 10 I do not even open them
for 2 or 3 days.
Mr. Whitley. And in all cases you say you get the literature that
way ?
Mr. Gardner. Well, I imagine in many cases, that is possible.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. You said a moment ago you had gotten some
letters.
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. When they sent the literature ?
Mr. Gardner. But I don't subscribe to it.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever subscribe to it ?
The Chairman (interposing). Has he written for it under a pen
name ?
Mr. Whitley. Have you contributed any material to the publica-
tion ?
Mr. Gardner. No; I don't write for it under any pen name.
Mr. Whitley. I see, but you think this W. P. might be William D.
Pelley?
Mr. Gardner. It is more than likely.
Mr. Whitley. But you don't really know?
Mr. Gardner. Frankly, I don't really know.
Mr. Whitley-. It could very easily be?
Mr. Gardner. Surely.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, the previous telegram signed
"W. D." could easily be William D. Pelley?
Mr. Gardner. I would agree it could be.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever receive any telegram from Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Gardner. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Whitley'. Not to your knowledge ?
Mr. Gardner. No.
4058 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. You may have?
Mr. Gardner. No. None that I could truthfully say were from
William D. Pelley.
The Chairman. Couldn't you be sure about it?
Mr. Gardner. Well, I am trying to be ; I don't know.
The Chairman. You mean to tell me and to tell this committee that
when you got a telegram from a man who you had known and had
talked to, William D. Pelley, and got a telegram from William D.
Pelley, from Asheville, N. C, you did not know whether it was sent
by Pelley?
Mr. Gardner. I will give you a practical answer
The Chairman. Do you know whether that is a fact ?
Mr. Gardner. Do you mind if I answer it this way : I have received
telegrams from down there signed such as this "W. D." and have
learned the next day or tomorrow be reminded that he was thousands
of miles away.
The Chairman. You mean you don't know?
Mr. Gardner. No ; I do not,
The Chairman. Do you know where Pelley is?
Mr. Gardner. I do not.
The Chairman. Neither does this committee. All right, go ahead.
Mr. Whitley. Here is another telegram, Mr. Gardner, dated March
1, Asheville, N. C, addressed to Frasier Gardner, phone Emerson 0430,
Washington, D. C. That is your phone number, is it not?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
The Chairman. Let us have quiet so we can hear.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
Please call at Postal Telegraph, Washington Building, at 10 o'clock tomorrow
morning for money transfer. Sorry about delay. It won't happen again.
Mr. Gardner. I was there.
Mr. Whitley. Signed "W. D. P.". Could that be Pelley?
Mr. Gardner. I presume that is right.
Mr. Whitley. Don't you know it is ?
Mr. Gardner. I don't know any more than you ; I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. But you presume it is?
Air. Gardner. I presume that it was.
Mr. Whitley. You presume that it was.
Mr. Gardner. After the information that I have I presume that it
was; I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. What did it mean "transfer of money" ?
Mr. Gardner. Skyland Press.
Mr. Whitley. Skyland Press?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Inserted as the return address on this telegram
"charged Skyland Press."
You still don't know the Skyland Press had anything to do with
Pelley?
Mr. Gardner. I still don't know — wait a minute. Whether it had
anything to do with Pelley, I am convinced that he was connected
with it now; but I am sure, I say that I am sure that it has no con-
nection with the Liberation. There is a Pelley's organization; I
don't know whether it is a corporation or not,
Mr. Whitley. How much money was sent to you by this money
transfer ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4059
Mr. Gardner. What is the date of thai I
Mr. Whitley. March 1.
Mr. Gardner. It was about the time of the other. I said $50 or
$75; I presume it was about that amount.
Mr. Whitley. What was that money for?
Mr. Gardner. Work that had been done on the research, immigra-
tion research.
Mr. Whitley. For Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Gardner. For the Skyland Press.
Mr. Whitley. For the Skyland Press?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
Sorry about delay.
Had you gotten in touch with the Skyland Press or Mr. Pelley
about the delay (
Mr. Gardner. No. I recall telling the attorney that I did not
understand anyone who wanted work clone and not pay for it on
time.
Mr. Whitley. I see. And he was apologizing for it ?
Mr. Gardner. Somebody was.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. "It wont happen again." Has it happened
again. Mr. Gardner?
Mr. Gardner. I don't think so.
Mr. Whitley. You don't think so ?
Mr. Gardner. Xo.
Mr. Whitley. How often could you get money on checks or trans-
fer, money transfer, from the Skyland Press?
Mr. Gardner. I haye gotten it seyeral times since March.
Mr. Whitley. Seyeral times?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. A regular salary?
Mr. Gardner. Not exactly.
Mr. Whiti ey. Not a regular salary \
Mr. Gardner. Mostly on a fee basis; that is the way I do work, on
a fee basis.
Mr. Whitley. You transmitted a bill ?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. Or sent a statement?
Mr. Gardner. No; I haye never sent a bill in my life to them.
Mr. Whitley. How do they know what your fee is ?
Mr. Gardner. On whatever arrangements are made with the at-
torney.
Mr. Whitley. You have talked to a representative of the Skyland
Press for the work done and what the remuneration would be?
Mr. Gardner. Mr. Cummings made a statement to me when I saw
him several months ago and asked me if the financial arrangement
was satisfactory.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Gardner. And I told him that I did not think it was enough
money.
Mr. Whitley. What was the financial arrangement?
Mr. Gardner. Well, it was approximately $50 a week.
Mr. Whitley. $50.
4060 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gardner. Approximately.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. Sometimes maybe a little more and sometimes
less?
Mr. Gardner. According to what was accomplished.
Mr. Whitley. Was that money sent every week or once a month?
Mr. Gardner. Approximately each week.
Mr. Whitley. And how was it sent, Mr. Gardner?
Mr. Gardner. Postal Telegraph or Western Union.
Mr. Whitley. Did they ever mail a check?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. It was wired to you?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. How long has that arrangement been in effect ?
Mr. Gardner. Oh, since about the first of March.
Mr. Whitley. About, since about the first of March.
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. T see. And you still don't know that the telegram
came from Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Gardner. I don't want to say that it did because as I told
you-
Mr. Whitley (interposing). To the best of your knowledge.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact don't you know the telegram
came from him?
Mr. Gardner. As I started to say, I got a telegram and learned the
next day after, or a day or two afterwards, that he was 3,800 miles
from here. So, I am not sure when I say that but what somebody
is authorized down there to sign his initials, such as secretaries sign
Congressmen's letters.
Mr. Whitley. When they do that it comes from the Congressman
just the same.
Mr. Gardner. Well, we will say in that connection they have
Mr. Voorhis. You don't know whose initials they are?
Mr. Gardner. As I say, I think it is logical to believe it is Pelley.
Mr. Voorhis. You know W. D. Pelley ; don't you know it was from
him positively?
Mr. Gardner. I want to be just as honest in answering the ques-
tions, and I would like to have honest questions — I do not mean to
say you are not asking honest questions, but I would like to clarify
it in this way : They have got 25 or 30 employees down there and
I don't know their names and I don't know who is authorized down
there to sign his name.
Mr. Voorhis. How do you know they have got these people down
there?
Mr. Gardner. The attorney told me that. I asked him how large the
organization Avas and he said a $50,000 plant that employed 25 or 30
people; that it was formerly a bank building; that it was a going con-
cern, and so forth. I have never seen the place. In fact, I have
never been to Asheville, N. C.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Whitley.
Mr. Whitley. You mentioned a moment ago you had received a
communication from Mr. Pelley and you had assumed it was from
him and the next day you found out that he was, I believe you said,
thousands of miles away.
Mr. Gardner. That lie wasn't at the particular place.
QN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4001
Mr. Whitley. How did you know where Mr. Pelley was?
Mi. Gardner. The attorney told me.
Mr. Whitley. The attorney told you so?
Mr. Gardner. Yes; I told him I had gotten a wire from him, and
he said, -Where did it come from ?" I said, "Asheville." And he said
"He is supposed to be—" I think he said Portland, Oreg., or
Olympia, Wash., or some other place.
Mr. Whitley. Who made the arrangements with you for this em-
ployment at approximately $50 a week?
Mr. Gardner. Cummings; H-i-a-1, or H-i-l-e; I don't know.
The Chairman. Does Cummings stay in Asheville?
Mr. Gardner. I presume he does.
The Chairman. Is he connected with Dr. Brinkley of Del Rio ?
Mr. Gardner. I don't believe he is.
The Chairman. Do you know whether he is connected with him?
Mr. Gardner. I don't believe so. I should say I don't know. I
know he draws cartoons.
Mr. Whitley. Is he the cartoonist for the Liberation?
Mr. Gardner. I am not sure how you spell his first name.
Mr. Whitley. He is the cartoonist for the Liberation?
Mr. Gardner. Yes ; that I know. I definitely know that but I really
don't know his initials.
Mr. Whitley. He employed you to do research work for the Sky-
land Press.
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Then it was not the attorney, Mr. Babp,
who made the arrangement?
Mr. Gardner. The attorney sat right there while the arrangements
were made.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Gardner. Acting in the capacity of my attorney as well, I
presume, as their attorney.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Gardner. And seeing that everything went all right, which it
did, and he made tentative arrangements with me, and I asked Mr.
Babp what he thought
Mr. Whitley. Was there a signed contract?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. Just a verbal contract?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Made approximately the first of March?
Mr. Gardner. Yes. In fact, I asked for a written contract ; I asked
for a written contract.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. Mr. Cummings wouldn't give it to you?
Mr. Gardner. Well, he said they didn't do things that way.
Mr. Whitley. But you have received approximately $50 since
about
Mr. Gardner (interposing). No.
Mr. Whitley (continuing). March of this year?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. As the result of that employment?
Mr. Gardner. Approximately; yes.
Mr. Whitley. As a result of that employment by Mr. Cummings?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
4062 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Who von knew
Mr. Gardner (interposing). Just a minute
Mr. Whitley (continuing). As a representative, a cartoonist for
the Liberation?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. You didn't know that?
Mr. Gardner. I never saw the man before. In fact, I never saw
the Liberation until about
Mr. Whitley (interposing). You knew he represented
Mr. Gardner (interposing). I knew he was a representative of the
Skyland Press ; that is correct.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Gardner. And sometime later I was advised — think within
6 weeks — thai he was cartoonist for the Liberation magazine.
Mr. Whitley. Did he tell you or how did you find out ?
Mr. Gardner. No; I ask H-i-a-1 or H-a-i-1, whichever it is.
Mr. Whitley. Anyway, his name appears as the cartoonist.
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. But he did make the contract with you
Mr. Gardner (interposing). He represented himself to me as rep-
resenting the Skyland Press, and just to negotiate a final contract,
with me, but not on paper.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Gardner. Although I asked for a written contract.
Mr. Whitley. It was a verbal agreement.
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. I see.
Mr. Gardner. And about 2 months later he asked me what I
thought of it.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, who is Mr. David Mayne, 229 Bond
Building, Washington, D. C ?
Mr. Gardner. David Mayne, to my knowledge, outside of state-
ments in this hearing, to my knowledge, is a pensioned veteran due
to service-connected disabilities ; who is a former prohibition investi-
gator under Dr. Doran.
I believe he was likewise a New York State trooper; that is what
he has told me — that is all I have, from what he tells me — a New
York State trooper; a Federal prohibition agent. That is all I
remember correctly. I believe lie made several other statements
about connections with municipal governments, but I don't remem-
ber them and I wouldn't want to try to give them.
Mr. Whitley. Where is he employed \
Mr. Gardner. His present employment, to the best of my knowl-
edge, and I am not very definite about it because he is very cagey
about such things as that
v*-'
The Chairman. He is connected witli Pelley, isn't he, or wasn't he?
Mr. Gardner. Not to my knowledge.
The Chairman. He was never present in Babp's office with Cum-
mings and you at any time?
Mr. Gardner. No.
The Chairman. You are very sure about that ?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
The Chairman. You have absolutely no knowledge of whether he
was connected with Pellev?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4063
Mr. Gardner. I do not know he is connected with Pelley.
Tin> Chairman. May I ask, Mr. Secretary, if that is not the man
who tried many times to become an investigator for this committee^
Mr. Strepunq. He approached the committee last year, on 8 or
10 different occasions, stating he had inside information concerning
certain communistic activities.
The Chairman. And suggestions to make to the committee?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
The Chairman. Yon might as well read the telegram in the record,
at this point, Mr. Whitley.
Mr. Whitley. The telegram is dated June 20, 1939, Asheville,
N. C, addressed David Mayne, care of David Babp, 229 Bond Build-
ing, Washington, D. C.
That is the address you gave as your business address?
Mr. Gardner. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. Apparently Mr. Mayne has the same address?
Mr. Gardner. I don't know that.
Mr. Whttlet. You don't know that.
Mr. Gardner. I have seen him there I should say 20 times.
Mr. Whitley. The telegram reads:
/ Beecham arrive sometime tonight. Was delayed until 7 o'clock this morning.
That is signed "Talpey." Do you know Mr. Talpey?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know who he is?
Mr. Gardner. No; only this, that he has apparently filled some
official position with that organization, the Skyland Press, because
I received several Postal Telegraph money transfers signed by Talpey.
Mr. Whitley. I see. He is an official
Mr. Gardner (interrupting). I presume that he is; I don't know.
I have never met him.
Mr. Whitley. The telegram bears the return of the Sky land Press.
Who is Beecham?
Mr. Gardner. I don't know the gentleman.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know him?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. Did you know Mr. Mayne was trying to get a posi-
tion with the committee as investigator?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. You did not know that?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. You know
Mr. Gardner (interposing). If you don't mind my making a per-
sonal reference to this : I don't have anything to do with the fellow.
Mr. Whitley. You do not have?
Mr. Gardner. No ; I don't like him ; I don't trust him.
I would like to make a little clarification of the address, and this
is a matter of legal record, by the way.
I operated the Medical and Dental Association, in the Metropolitan
Bank Building; I bought it out; I was in partners with an attorney,
who is still in the Metropolitan Bank Building, and I bought the deal
out completely from this attorney and have never — Babp was there
for a number of years, in connection with a lot of service groups, and
I asked him if I could make it the headquarters of the Medical and
4064 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Dental Association until such time as I could establish, or have
established my own offices for the Medical and Dental Association, if
I went ahead with it.
It was a credit proposition for professional men; it was in the
embryonic stage when I bought it out and didn't progress much past
that, although it made a number of collections and issued credit re-
ports, and the correspondence was at the office of David Babp, all of
which I have copies. That originated in 1936, when I met with David
Babp, in June or July of 1936.
Mr. Whitley. That is the reason you used that office ?
Mr. Gardner. I still use it.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Mr. Babp is attorney for or
represents Mr. Pelley ?
Mr. Gardner. I understand now he is.
Mr. Whitley. You understand that he is?
Mr. Gardner. Yes. Wait just a minute. I had better put it this
way, I understand that he did. I am not sure that he is now.
Mr. Whitley. That he has to your knowledge?
Mr. Gardner. Yes; sure — I am not sure that he is now : T think there
has been some dissension between them, but I don't know; that is what
I have heard. \
Mr. Whitley. He has represented him ?
Mr. Gardner. I understand that he has acted in some way.
Mr. Whitley. Here is another telegram, dated at Asheville, Julv 3,
1939, addressed to B. D. Mayne, care David Babp. '229 Bond Building,
Washington, D. C. It reads :
Impossible to visit clown there before Friday.
That was for Nashville.
Can Atlanta furnish contact at plant in route home? Important.
That is signed "Beecham." That is sent to Mr. Mayne.
The Chairman. Can Atlanta furnish contact
Mr. Whitley. This is not addressed to Mr. Gardner.
The Chairman. I understand that it is not addressed to him.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
Can Atlanta furnish contact at plant in route home? Important.
The Chairman. What is the date of that ?
Mr. Whitley. July 3, 1939.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Whitley. You stated a moment ago, I believe, that you did not
know Beecham.
Mr. Gardner. No ; I don't.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know what his connections are?
Mr. Gardner. No. I have seen a number of names, but I don't
recall them; but I have seen a number of different names in connection
with that organization.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he is employed with the
organization ?
Mr. Gardxkr. Well, I do not; I have never been down there; I have
never been down there; I had no occasion to meet with their organi-
zation.
Mr. Whitley. You do know he uses the same address that you use?
Mr. Gardner. No ; I do not know that he does that. I see him there
but I don't know what arrangement he has.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4Q65
iiavg
Mr. Whitley. Are von acquainted with Roy Zachary?
Mi-. Gardner. I have met him.
Mr. Whitley. You have met him?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Where?
Mr. Gardner. T was introduced to him in Philadelphia.
Mr. Whitley. When was that, approximately, Mr. Gardner?
Mr. Gardner. Several months ago.
Mr. Whitley. Several months ago?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. As much as 6 months?
Mr. Gardner, Oh, yes — in the last 4 months, I think.
Mr. Whitley. In the last 4 months?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What was the occasion of your meeting him?
Mr. Gardner. I was introduced to him at the railroad station in
Philadelphia.
Mr. Whitley. By whom?
Mr. Gardner. I wasn't introduced to him by anyone.
Mr. Whitley. How did it happen that you met him at that time?
Mr. Gardner. He was with a man in the station in Philadelphia
and tame over to me and asked me if my name wasn't Gardner; and
I said, "Yes. Why?" And he said: "A friend of mine over here
said that you had been doing some work for the Skyland Press."
I asked who he was. He said, "A friend of mine."
I think that was on the occasion of the night of General Moseley —
when he gave his last Philadelphia speech, and I presume that was
why he was there.
Mr. Whitley. Who was the friend?
Mr. Gardner. I don't know the fellow.
Mr. Whitley. Who pointed you out?
Mr. Gardner. I didn't know the fellow.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know the fellow?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know who he was?
Mr. Gardner. No. I had a somewhat similar experience
Mr. Whitley (interposing.) This man said, "I am Roy Zachary."
The Chairman. What station was this, the Thirtieth Street
Station?
Mr. Whitley. What station was it?
Mr. Gardner. It was the Pennsy Station.
Mr. Whitley. He came up to you
Mr. Gardner. He came up to me and asked if my name was Gard-
ner. "You are Gardner, aren't you?" I said, "Yes. Why?" And,
he said, ''Well. I think you have done some work with the Skyland
Press." And I said, "All right. How did you know who I was?"
He said. "My friend told me who you were."
Mr. Whitley. Could you see the friend?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
The Chairman. What were you doing in Philadelphia on that
occasion?
Mr. Gardner. It had nothing to do with this; it was purely politi-
cal; something I was asked to do at Philadelphia, and had nothing
to do with this at all.
Mr. Whttley. Who is Roy Zachary?
4086 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gardner. Connected with the Silver Shirts.
Mr. Whitley. Silver Shirts?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know what his position is?
Mr. Gardner. I do not.
Mr. Whitley. You have heard it ?
Mr. Gardner. I have seen it stated since the hearing.
Mr. Whitley. You know he is field marshal.
Mr. Gardner. I have read it in the Liberation.
Mr. Whitley. You have read it ?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. If Pelley says it in the Liberation, the probability
is, you would assume it is true ?
Mr. Gardner. I do not want to assume that Pelley writes every-
thing in the Liberation.
Mr. Whitley. You have read it, at least?
Mr. Gardner. I have read it.
Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of the conversation you had
with Mr. Zachary (
Mr. Gardner. That was it.
Mr. Whitley. When he came up to you and asked 30111* name?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Is that the only time you have seen him; that was
the first meeting you had ever had ?
Mr. Gardner. That was the only time I have seen him.
Mr. Whitley. The only time ?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You have never seen him since ?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. You hadn't seen him before that and haven't seen
him since ?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. In Washington or elsewhere?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. Here is a telegram dated April 3, 1939, Asheville,
N. C, addressed to G. R. Nunness, South Hills Branch, No. 9 Oak
Hurst Place, B-e-t-h-e-1-l-o-o-s, Allegheny County, Pittsburgh, Pa.,
and reads :
Urgent ; have Roy, if there, advise Lloyd phoue Emerson 0430, Frasier, tonight
regard leaving.
That is signed "Carmichael," charged "Skyland Press."
Do you know who Lloyd is ?
Mr. Gardner. I haven't any idea.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know who he is ?
Mr. Gardner. I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. This Emerson, this phone number, Emerson 0430, is
your telephone number ?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. It is not ?
Mr. Gardner. 0430?
Mr. Whitley. Yes; that is your phone?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Your telephone number.
ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4067
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. The telegram read:
Urgent; have Roy, if there, advise Lloyd phono Emerson 0430, Frasier, tonight
regard leaving.
You don't know who Lloyd is?
Mr. Gardner. No; I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. Regarding what leaving?
Mr. Gardner. I don't know; I have no idea what that is all about.
He didn't call me, and I haven't any idea. I haven't any idea what
he would have to advise me about, unless it was with regard to immi-
gration, or something like that.
Mr. Whitley. Who is Carmiehael?
Mr. Gardner. I do not know who he is.
Mr. Whitley. You do not ?
Mr. Gardner. I really do not.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know G. R. Ninness?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether the Roy referred to here
is Roy Zachary?
Mr. Gardner. I do not know that it is, but I presume that it is.
Mr. Whitley. You presume that it is?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And if the party you referred to here, Lloyd, did
phone or try to phone you, you did not know about it ?
Mr. Gardner. I did not.
Mr. Whitley. If he called up, you did not know it?
Mr. Gardner. I don't remember him calling.
Mr. Whitley. You don't remember?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. You think you would remember if he had called
you?
Mr. Gardner. I think I would have; I don't remember him calling.
The Chairman. You don't deny that you had a telephone call from
Pelley, that you have called Pelley back, do you ?
Mr. Gardner. I don't do what ?
The Chairman. You don't deny that you had a long-distance call
from Pelley to you, and you to Pelley ?
Mr. Gardner. Why, no.
The Chairman. You have had such calls ?
Mr. Gardner. Yes; certainly.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you had a number of calls
passing between you, Mr. Gardner ?
Mr. Gardner. No.
The Chairman. How many?
Mr. Gardner. I don't know.
The Chairman. Would you say 50?
Mr. Gardner. No.
The Chairman. Would you say 25?
Mr. Gardner. Xo.
The Chairman. How many?
Mr. Gardner. I would say a half a dozen.
The Chairman. A half a dozen calls?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
4068 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Over what period?
Mr. Gardner. Six months.
The Chairman. In the past 6 months ?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
The Chairman. What were those calls ; what was the nature of the
calls where you were called by Pelley or where you called Pelley?
Mr. Gardner. Well, there was considerable controversy, I think
3'ou recall, if you were in town during the refugee issue, that he wanted
to know what was going on. He told me he had made connection
in New York City with the fact that a number of immigrants were
coining in, and refugees, that he claimed were illegal entries, and
wouldn't I go into the facts; and I checked the figures from the De-
partment of Labor here, and I got some information from the office
of Mr. Reynolds, of North Carolina, and I got some information from
Senator Wagner's office, and one or two others.
I talked to him about that at least a half a dozen times, because
there was considerable discussion here that refugees were being
brought in regardless of the law, and he was very much interested
in it, and he wanted me to find out whether that was right or wrong.
The Chairman. I understood you to say that you hadn't known
Mr. Pelley as long as 6 months.
Mr. Gardner. No ; I didn't say that.
The Chairman. When did you first meet Mr. Pelley ?
Mr. Gardner. In March.
The Chairman. In March?
Mr. Gardner. Yes; I think that is about 6 months — 5 months.
The Chairman. That was the only time you talked to Pelley about
anything ?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you ever make any trips for Pelley, or for
the Skyland Press?
Mr. Gardner. No.
The Chairman. Who were the leaders or incorporators of the
American Protective League?
Mr. Gardner. Well, to my knowledge, Mr. Dies, I was employed —
I was not one of the
The Chairman. I know you were employed by them.
Mr. Gardner. I was employed as executive director of the or-
ganization and research director. It was formed by a fellow by
the name of Spurgeon Beaver, a rehabilitation conciliator of the
Department of Labor.
The Chairman. You mean the revived?
Mr. Gardner. No.
The Chairman. I am talking about the revived.
Mr. Gardner. Oh, yes. I was a little too young for the other one.
And a chap bv the name of Franklin J. Porter, who is now em-
ployed by the Department of Labor in their D. C. Unemployment —
or is it the national — it is the national organization. What is that
unemployment service? He is one of the officers — officials — in that;
and a woman who — I don't recall her last name; I did not meet
hoi- — Virginia, who worked in the office with Porter.
Mr. Thomas. Worked in what office?
Mr. Gardner. What is the correct title of the Employment Service?
The Chairman. U. S. Employment Service.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4069
Mr. Gardner. He is with the U. S., not the D. C, but the U. S.
She is in that office. I don't recall her name.
Mr. Thomas. What Port or is this you refer to?
Mr. Gardner. Franklin J. He is one of the officers down there.
Mr. Thomas. He is an officer in this Employment Service?
Mr. Gardner. He is today: yes. Mister — Congressman Hill, I be-
lieve it was, investigated his status, his connection, with the American
Protective League and Mr. Beaver, because he was under the im-
pression they were disclosing Department of Labor figures to the
American Protective League. There is a record of that. I have
some clippings on it ; it is in the morgue of all of the newspapers.
I just
The Chairman. You just worked for the association?
Mr. Gardner. And Robert Wise is counsel, formerly Special As-
sistant Attorney General. I don't know whether you know him or
not — Robert D. Wise.
Mr. Thomas. Is he special counsel for the Attorney General now?
Mr. Gardner. No; he was. He has gotten sort of out of that into
law practice, and then into this. Then a fellow by the name of
Carroll Emery, one of the past commanders of one of the American
Legion Posts, was in town; a fellow by the name of Charles Price,
who had been the bodyguard — one of the investigators of the
A. P. L. and who had been the bodyguard of Evelyn Walsh McLean
for 4 or 5 years or, rather, for Evelyn Walsh McLean, the daughter,
and several others of like character.
The Chairman. Was Colonel Hadley, of Chicago, affiliated with it?
Mr. Gardner. No.
The Chairman. He was never affiliated with it ?
Mr. Gardner. Not with this A. P. L. I think I have heard that
name in connection with the old A. P. L.
The Chairman. But not with this one?
Mr. Gardner. No. Oh, yes; there was one chap, one member,
who had been with the original A. P. L., a former inves-
tigator of the F. B. L, a fellow by the name of Clyde M. Ambrose,
and who had been in charge of one of the offices of the A. P. L.
during the war.
The Chairman. Where was this association formed; in what State?
Mr. Gardner. I think a Delaware corporation. It was a nonprofit
organization.
The Chairman. Where did they get their funds to operate?
Mr. Gardner. I don't know that.
The Chairman. By contributions? You were the executive secre-
tary; would not vou have some idea?
Mr. Gardner. Yes. But, as I say, the thing, in its embryonic
stage, died a quick death.
The Chairman. You mean it was short lived?
Mr. Gardner. Yes. I don't think they raised 15 cents; I don't
think any effort was made to raise it.
The Chairman. How long were you with them ?
Mr. Gardner. Oh, the thing stretched out, and I would say, for a
matter of keeping myself regularly connected with them, for claims
against them, I attached myself to them, or stayed attached with
them, at least a month after they closed up. That, in all, would be
about 2y2 to 3 months.
94931— 39— vol. 6 21
4070 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. When did they close up?
Mr. Gardner. January 1938.
The Chairman. What was the purpose of the organization?
Mr. Gardner. I don't have their literature with me; I have some-
copies of it home. Basically, civilian action along the line of the
Dies committee, with the information to he turned over to the proper
( government department.
The Chairman. To investigate all subversive activities?
Air. Gardner. Yes; in a purely civilian way — I mean without the
benefit of arms, without the benefit of anything like that.
The Chairman. Did those embrace Nazis, Fascists, and Com-
munists?
Air. Gardner. All three of them.
The Chairman. As a matter- of fact, did they conduct any investi-
gation?
Air. Gardner. Nope.
The Chairman. They did not do a thing?
Mr. Gardner. No. You see, Mr. Price. Air. Emery of the American
Legion, had access to a lot of information, and Price had a lot of
information
Air. Mason. I would like to ask a question, if I might.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Mason. Our committee has always required applicants to fill
positions as investigators to furnish references and recommendations.
Usually these were given to the committee. Did you furnish refer-
ences and recommendations when you made application last spring?
Air. Gardner. In filling in, Mr. Mason, that part of the application
that permits that, there are several names.
Mr. Mason. You did furnish several names?
Mi-. Gardner. Oh, yes.
Mr. Mason. Of prominent people?
The Chaikman. He was recommended by some very prominent
people in political life. There is no use to read the names now.
Mr. Mason. I am not interested in the names: I am just wonder-
ing
Mr. Gardner. On the civilian end of it, I will be glad to tell you
one name I used there, that is Walter Steele, whom you know very
well.
Mr. Mason. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, he was recommended by some
United States Senators and prominent people.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I think if we are going to have one
name in the record, we ought to have them all in, or have them all
out. But I think it is very unfair to one person unless we include
them all. Now it is all right with me to keep them in, or out; the
one or the other. That is what I suggest.
The Chairman. Did Mr. Steele recommend him ?
Mr. Whitley. I think he did give Mr. Steele as a reference.
Mr. Gardner. Mr. Steele was in your office talking
The Chairman. There is no letter here of recommendation from
Walter Steele.
Mr. Gardner. I did not say there was. I said in the section there —
just a minute, Mr. Mason, and I will explain the use of Mr. Steele's
name. I Avent in your office to see you ; I believe you were over on the
i the
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4071
floor, or something; yon were nol in the office, and Mr. Steele was
talking with Mrs. Boies and I asked Mrs. Boies tor an application
and, while writing it out, when I got clown to that section, I waited
until Mr. Steele got through talking with Mrs. Boies, and after say-
ing ''Hello" to him, I called him over to the center desk in the outside
room and said "Do you mind if I use your name as a reference," and
he said "No ; go ahead and use it."
The Chairman. For the sake of the record, Mr. Steele later repudi-
ated the whole matter; immediately thereafter Mr. Steele went on
record to the contrary.
Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairman, of course, there is a difference between
a reference and a recommendation, a distinct difference, and I was
just wondering whether Mr. Gardner had given not only references,
but recommendations from people of standing.
The Chairman. Mr. Gardner submitted to this committee recom-
mendations from some very prominent people in political life, United
States Senators, and some high officials of the Government. That is
as far. I think, as that part of the matter should go.
Mr. Mason. That is as far as I want to go.
Mr. Whitley. I believe you stated a few monents ago you did
not know G. R. Ninness.
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. Who is the party who sent a telegram requesting
that Roy advise Lloyd to call you regarding legislation? And you
don't know who Lloyd is? If he called you, you don't recall it?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know what legislation he referred to?
Mr. Gardner. In reference to that, and for
Mr. Whitley. In reference to what (
Mr. Gardner. In reference to the use of such names as that, that
you might attribute some connection with me, my phone is a non-
Hsted phone, and I would wager you there are six people a day call
up there that I never heard of in my life and ask for me.
The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Mayne?
Mr. Gardner. No.
The Chairman. You never met him?
Mr. Gardner. I saw him here the first time I ever saw him.
Mr. Voorhis. How does that happen; how do they call you?
Mr. Gardner. I don't know.
Mr. Voorhis. What kind of people call you?
Mr. Gardner. Wait a minute, and I will give you an idea. Some
woman by the name of "Matthews," a Miss or Mrs., called me Sun-
day night and said that she was Mrs. Matthews and asked if I
would be interested in doing some research work for her — political
research work. I said, "Surely," and she said. "Well, if I would
come to her office, that she would be very glad to discuss it with
me," and she said that she would have to find out just what time —
this is Sunday night; not during a business day, but on Sunday
night — she said "I will call you back and let you know what time
will be convenient." I said if she would leave the number of her
phone, I w^oulcl call her, but she said no, that would not be necessary;
that she was going to talk it over with her partner and call me
back, and she has not called me back.
Mr. Whitley. Did she use your name?
4072 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gardner. Yes; she asked if this was Mr. Gardner.
Mr. Whitley. And you don't know how she got your telephone
number ?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. Did she call you Frasier ?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. This telegram says "Roy told Lloyd to phone Frasier
tonight."
Mr. Gardner. Well, that is my first name.
Mr. Whitley. Regarding legislation?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know what that possibly could mean ?
Mr. Gardner. No ; I really and truly don t know what it means.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know who Carmichael is?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. And if that call was put through Lloyd, you don't
know ?
Mr. Gardner. I don't know Lloyd. If somebody called me and
said this, that, and the other thing, in the first place, I do not discuss
what I do with someone else
Mr. Whitley. Now, you use the same address as Mr. Babp; you
say he at least has represented Mr. Pel ley ?
Mr. Gardner. Of my knowledge.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know what his present association is?
Mr. Gardner. No ; I don't.
Mr. Whitley. You were identifying Mr. Mayne for us a few mo-
ments ago.
Mr. Gardner. That is by his statements to me.
Mr. Whitley. Will you repeat who he is? I mean you have
identified him as to his background. Do you know whether he is
connected in any way with Pelley or the Skyland Press?
Mr. Gardner. I don't know definitely that he is connected with
Pelley. I will say this, that he has shown an awful lot of interest
in the magazines that came up there. There are magazines delivered
to that office, too, I presume, giving Mr. Babp's connection. Formerly
what his status was I am not sure of. As to Mr. Pelley, he had shown
an awful lot of interest in those things — "What do vou think of
this ? What do you think of that ?"
Mr. Whitley. Has he ever indicated to you in his conversation,
or stated to you, he was connected in any way with Pelley ?
Mr. Gardner. No. He talks a lot about nothing and winds up
with "a woman you might like to know."
Mr. AVhitley. Do you know whether he knows Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Gardner. I have never seen the two of them talk with each
other. It is possible, though, that he knows him.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever see them in the same room together?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. You have not?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. And you did not know Mr. Mayne was trying to get
a job with this committee?
Mr. Gardner. No.
UX-AMERIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4073
Mr. Whitley. And lie even offered t<> work free of charge to give
the committee the benefit of his experience and knowledge, for the
best patriotic motives?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Air. Whitley. Here is a telegram dated "Washington, D. C, July
15, 1939," addressed to "William Dudley Pelley, Biltmore Plaza, Phone
108. Asheville, N. C," signed k'D. D. Mayne." The telegram reads :
"C. R. reports on George Leech, mayor of Minneapolis, as of this
date." and so forth. I do not think the substance of the rather long
telegram is important, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Gardner. I don't know a thing about it.
Air. Whitley. Do you know who George Leech is?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. But you and Mr. Mayne and Babp all have the same
address here in town and, at least, you know Mr. Pelley and was con-
nected with the Skyland Press, and Air. Babp at least has been con-
nected with it. and this telegram would indicate that possibly Mr.
Mayne is acquainted with or does business with Air. Pelley?
Air. Gardner. The fact we all have the same office — do you mind
clarifying that for the record ?
Air. Whitley. Well, that is where you get telegrams?
Mr. Gardner. Is it? Not any that you have read to me.
Air. Whitley. You gave that as your office address.
Air. Gardner. Yes, sure : but I don't
Air. Whitley. You gave that as your office address?
Air. Gardner. That is correct ; but, to my knowledge, it is not
Alavne's address.
Air. Whitley. He gets telegrams there, doesn't he ?
Air. Gardner. I don't know that.
Air. Whitley. That is the address on the telegrams I have read to
you.
Air. Gardner. He has arrangements made for that office; I know
that.
The Chairman. Did you ever meet Mr. Hugh Inchcliffe?
Air. Gardner. No.
Air. Whitiey. Air. Chairman, at this time, I would like to call Mr.
Sullivan.
The Chairman. Are you going to have Air. Gardner back?
Air. Whitley. Yes; I am going to ask Air. Gardner to wait for a
few minutes, and call him back to the stand.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE E. SULLIVAN, ATTORNEY AT LAW,
WASHINGTON, D. C.
^The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Air. Whitley. Will you state your full name for the record, Air.
Sullivan?
Air. Sullivan. George E. Sullivan.
Air. Whitley. What is your address. Air. Sullivan ?
Air. Sullivan. 226 Woodward Building, Washington, D. C.
Air. Whitley. What is your business, or profession?
Air. Sullivan. I am a lawyer since 1902.
4074 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. "Whitley. Mr. Sullivan, are you acquainted with Mr. Frasier
Gardner \
Mr. Sullivan. I am acquainted with him, in the sense I have met
him on about three occasions.
Mr. Whitley. Did Mr. Gardner, within the past several months,
call at your office to see you?
Mr. Sullivan. He did.
Mr. Whitley. To the best of your recollection, what approximately
is the date of that call \
Mr. Sullivan. I cannot fix the time very definitely. I could by
reference to the letter I wrote to this committee a few days after the
call, but my recollection is it was in June, and sometime after the
middle of June.
Mr. Whitley. I have that letter that Mr. Sullivan wrote the com-
mittee, Mr. Chairman ; I do not have it with me, but we could fix the
date definitely by that letter.
What was the occasion of that visit which Mr. Frasier Gardner
paid to you at your office, Mr. Sullivan ?
Mr. Sullivan. Well, there was no occasion so far as I was con-
cerned. He simply dropped in my office and was sitting in my wait-
ing room — it was in the forenoon — and, when I came back to the
office, he said he had to see me and he went into my private office
and began talking, and he said that he had information as to when
the next hearings of the Dies committee would be held, and who
would be called, and the subject matter to be inquired into, and he
wanted — he said he had this information that he could make avail-
able to anyone, or group, that would make a deal with him for it. I
told him that I was not interested in anything of the kind and there
was not any group with which I was acquainted that wanted any such
information — at least, that would pay anything for it. He talked
and talked along and I really had no data by which to tell whether
he was bluffing or whether he did have some private data for sale.
But in no event was I interested. And the matter concerned me quite
a bit, worried me a little bit, because I like to see everybody get fair
play — this committee included.
The Chairman. Just a second, Mr. Gardner
Mr. Gardner. I am coming right back.
Air. Sullivan. So, several days later, it occurred to me that really
it was a public duty on my part to write this committee frankly about
it, which I did.
Mr. Whitley. And as I have stated, Mr. Chairman, I have that
letter.
Now, Mr. Sullivan, at the time of this conversation, did Mr. Gard-
ner indicate that he had inside sources or confidential sources of in-
formation, or confidential or inside contacts with this committee,
through which he could get confidential information?
Mr. Sullivan. He did not say whether he had direct contacts, but
he made it very plain that he had. or claimed to have, contacts,
whether direct or indirect, that put him in touch with this in-
formation.
Mr. Whitley. Did he at the time discuss some of this confidential
information that he had, which was for sale?
Mr. Sullivan. Not a particle, because I did not allow that subject
to be gone into.
ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4075
Mr. Whtouet. I see. Did you see subsequently or was any future
or fun her reference made to it at any lime?
Mr. Sullivan. No; I have not had any talk with him since.
Mr. Whitley. That is all. Mr. Sullivan, unless the committee has
some questions.
The Chairman. Did yon want to read the statement of Mr. Gard-
ner before the committee in executive session awhile ago?
Mr. Whitley. Yes. That is all. Thank you very much, Mr. Sul-
livan.
TESTIMONY OF FRASIER GARDNER— (Recalled)
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman. I think it would be well for the
reporter at this time to read the record on the executive session this
morning, at which Mr. Gardner was a witness.
The Reporter. I do not have that. It was not me.
Mr. Gakdxer. You can repeat it, Mr. Whitley.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, do you recall the occasion when you
came to my office and practically demanded you be employed by this
committee ?
Mr. Gakdxer. I remember going to your office.
Mr. AYiiitley. You recall that you were very insistent that you
be employed: you, among other things, suggested or insisted that I
call up certain people right then and there, if you were not going
to be employed, and tell them that ? Do you recall that \
Mr. Gardner. Not quite so harshly. I recall suggesting to you
that it might help me if you would.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, Mr. Gardner, the reason you
were so interested in getting a connection with this committee would
be so you would be in a position to get inside confidential informa-
tion to pass on to your contacts and possibly other employees? Now,
is not that a matter of fact?
Mr. Gardner. Definitely, no.
Mr. Whitley. I see.
Mr. Gardner. I think you saw enough evidence of my background
in originals
Mr. Whitley. I have seen enough, Mr. Gardner
Mr. Gardner. At that time.
Mr. Whitley. And you have testified this morning, in the executive
session, and later in the open session here, that you had no connections
of any kind, direct or indirect, which would prevent you from serving
the best interests of this committee?
Mr. Gardner. I don't see how7 they would.
Mr. Whitley. I see.
The Chairman. And did not he testify directly that he had no
connection whatsoever with Mr. Pelley and was not on the pay roll
of Mr. Pelley, and so on, and so forth?
Mr. Whitley. That is right.
Mr. Gardner. For your record, I am an employee of the Skyland
Press.
The Chairman. So you make that distinction?
Mr. Gardner. Mr. Dies, I do not see
The Chairman. Is the reporter on his way here?
Mr. Whitley. Yes; he will be here.
4076 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
I believe you also stated, under oath, to the committee that you
had never approached anyone with a view to selling alleged
Mr. Gardner. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. I had not finished my question — alleged confidential
information of this committee?
Mr. Gardner. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. You still state that?
Mr. Gardner. I absolutely do.
The Chairman. And does he deny specifically the testimony of
Mr. Sullivan?
Mr. Gardner. I definitely do ; and I can repeat, not verbatim, the
basic factors in our conversation, and I will be glad to do that for
the record, if that is in all fairness.
Mr. Whitley. Why did you happen to go to see Mr. Sullivan on
the occasion referred to?
Mr. Gardner. Mr. Sullivan, as you no doubt know, enjoys the repu-
tation, his own, for fighting communism by virtue of his writings.
He was for some time a representative of Archdeacon Curley, of
Baltimore, in the fight on communism. He wrote a booklet — I have
a copy of it — entitled "Wolves in Sheeps' Clothing," and his activities
over a number of years, that I know of, definitely have been a fight
against communism. I have had half a dozen conversations with
him regarding communism, pro and con, and have teased him on two
or three occasions, and asked him how far was he getting with it ; I
did not see any evidence of it, and one thing and another, just in a
friendly way. And at the time of my going in to see George Sullivan,
was within, I will say, 2 weeks — I don't recall the number of days —
after he had appeared here as one of the counsels for General Moseley.
I went into George Sullivan's office and he was not there, and I had
the girl locate him. I said, "I am about town for a little bit and I
would like to see him." He took me into his private office and I told
him this: I said, "We both have the same thought in mind. How-
ever, you have instruments to use that I don't have. Why cannot
you and I collaborate and. where we can, help supply information to
the committee, when we know who is going to be called." It was
public information at that time; I have every newspaper clipping
right on through, showing it, where the Dies committee announced
the witnesses. I said. "Why cannot we do something about the whole
dog-goned thing?"
Mr. Whitley. Do what, did you suggest?
Mr. Gardner. Well, we will sav you are going to investigate the
maritime situation, which Senator Copeland started over in Balti-
more a few years ago — communistic activities in the maritime situa-
tion. It so happens I have a few materials in relation to that. We
will say the committee was going to investigate that, and George
Sullivan being a writer, or rather he professes to be, we could as-
semble some materials there and turn them over to the committee.
Mr. Whitley. Oh. your proposition to Mr. Sullivan was that the
two of you get together and prepare material for this committee?
Mr. Gardner. Certainly.
Mr. Whitley. I see. You did not suggest it was of value to the
committee, did you?
Mr. Gardner. No.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4077
Mr. Whitley. No?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. It was just voluntary?
Mr. Gardner. I don't know what arrangements you have about
securing informal ion.
Mr. Whitley. Tt w;»s just voluntary collaboration in preparing
material which you thought would help this committee?
Mr. Gardner. Surely.
Mr. Whitley. And there was no suggestion there
Mr. Gardner. Definitely not.
Mr. Whitley. As to the source from which you would get this ma-
terial that you indicated?
Mr. Gardner. No ; because, at that particular time, we did not know-
just what — I think the hearings had recessed until this time
Mr. Whitley. Did you at that time suggest to Mr. Sullivan that
you had any inside sources of any kind — contacts — with this com-
mittee i
Mr. Gardner. No, sir.
Air. Whitley. You did not?
Mr. Gardner. No, sir. The committee knows that I don't have any.
Mr. Whitley. Well. I was interested in knowing if you repre-
sented
Mr. Gardner. That should carry some weight — the fact the com-
mittee knows I don't have any.
Mr. Whitley. That would not prevent you, though, from repre-
senting
Mr. Gardner. If you don't deliver the goods, you don't make a
sale: that is the way I look at it, and such a statement as that would
be asinine.
Mr. Whitley. And there was no conversation at that time about
selling this?
Mr. Gardner. No; absolutely not.
Mr. Whitley. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. That is all.
Mr. Thomas. You referred to your present occupation as that of
political research?
Mr. Gardner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. In what capacity are you actively employed in po-
litical research at the present time?
Mr. Gardner. Well, at the present time, in relation to the Skyland
Press, it would be in relation to immigration, and in relation to the
Dispensary Association of the District of Columbia. It is purely a
civic enterprise. You might classify it as political research, inasmuch
as it has a connection with the revenue angle for the District of
Columbia. Normally I have been and am employed
Mr. Thomas. What about the present employment?
Mr. Gardner. That covers it for the moment,
Mr. Thomas. Are you doing work for any others?
Mr. Gardner. No, sir.
Mr. Thomas. You said in the beginning that you were doing some
work for Mr. Sheppard?
Mr. Gardner. That is the dispensary. He introduced a resolution.
Mr. Voorhis. You are not working for him?
4078 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gardner. No, sir; I am not on his pay roll. He is not paying
me. It is purely a civic matter in which he is interested, and he in-
troduced a resolution.
Mr. Voorhis. Congressman Sheppard has no knowledge of your
connection with the Skyland Press?
Mr. Gardner. No, sir; for this reason, that there would be no
point in his knowing.
Mr. Voorhis. That is all I wanted to know.
Mr. Thomas. When you walked in here this morning, you ap-
proached me and said you were going to do some work in New
Jersey; that you had been hired to do some research work in New
Jersey, and that you would start about April. What kind of work
was that?
Mr. Gardner. To make a State-wide survey of New Jersey, taking
the voters' lists. It would be nonpartisan. I did not state I had
been hired, but I said there was an arrangement.
Mr. Thomas. An arrangement?
Mr. Gardner. Yes, sir; an arrangement. Do you wish me to tell
you what I am doing or will do?
Mr. Thomas. I want to know who you made that arrangement with.
Mr. Gardner. Unfortunately I would rather not say. I do not mind
telling you personally. I will be glad to do that somewhere else. That
is a political research matter.
Mr. Thomas. What will you survey there ?
Mr. Gardner. To make a survey, or to make a check of the Demo-
cratic lists and the Republican lists covering the entire State of New
Jersey with the lists containing the names of the leaders in all the coun-
ties, which, of course, would cover the townships, towns, cities, and every
princi pal place where there is a leader of either party. The survey would
be conducted by calling upon each of them for their views. Inasmuch as
1940 is the congressional election year and the Presidential year, their
views would be gotten strictly on an unbiased basis, so far as I am con-
cerned. That would cover every inch of New Jersey, and those reports
would be paid for by interested parties, those persons paying for the
survey, and they would form their own conclusions. A survey such
as this
Mr. Thomas (interposing). What kind of a survey is this?
Mr. Gardner. Political sentiment, whether Republican or Demo-
cratic, similar to the Gallup poll.
Mr. Thomas. Do you have a definite arrangement for that?
Mr. Gakdner. No, sir; not a definite arrangement. I have an
arrangement with him that will be concluded sometime. I have had
overtures on it, and have a fairly concrete tentative arrangement. It
is up to me whether or not I take it.
Mr. Thomas. You have got an arrangement ?
Mr. Gardner. I have been offered this proposition, and, so far as 1
know, I would take it, but in January I would know more about what
I am going to do.
Mr. Thomas. Do you have that arrangement with any person or
group of persons that have been mentioned here before this committee?
Mr. Gardner. I do not mind telling you who the person was. In
private I will be glad to do that.
Mr. Voorhis. You do not want to tell the committee now who it was?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4079
Mr. Gardner. No. sir. It would be the same as in your district where
.they want things strictly political. It is strictly political, and has no
bearing on this. I do not mind telling you. It is someone you know,
Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Mason. What is you idea of research work? You say you do
such work on various things. What is your idea of research work?
Mr. Gardner. Research work — it is along the same lines thai Mi-.
Thomas asked me about.
Mr. Mason. In the line of making this survey — you call that re-
search work?
Mr. Gardner. Yes. sir; that would be bordering on it. I would
say it would be something like these requests from out of town to
make a survey of some particular kind of legislation.
Mr. Mason. Would you say that research work would be on a re-
quest of some organization to find out certain facts that the organ-
zation may be interested in, whether political facts, scientific facts,
or any other kind of facts, and then to turn those facts over to the
organization?
Mr. Gardner. Yes, sir. As an example, 2 or 3 years ago, or several
years ago, a national organization employed me to go to the Library
of Congress and go through all the records or rosters of organiza-
tions. I would say that was for the George Washington Memorial
Association, a perfectly legitimate and ethical organization.
Mr. Mason. That is not the question. That is research work, but
as to these other activities, where you find out facts concerning the
legislative situation, or concerning refugee children coming in, fur-
nishing the facts to people interested in them, you would not classify
that as research.
Mr. Gardner. That was given for brevity, for the benefit of the
committee, but that was only the beginning. I had to go and get sta-
tistical data from the Department of Labor and the Department of
Commerce. I had to collect information with reference to immigra-
tion, and when I got through with that particular work, it made over
20 pages of information. There would be two or three people.
I would know where to go. I would know where to get it.
The Chairman. You are still under the subpena of the committee.
We will now call the official reporter for the committee.
TESTIMONY OF TELMA L. SMITH, OFFICIAL REPORTER TO
COMMITTEES, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
The Chairman. What is your name?
Mr. Smith. Telma L. Smith.
The Chairman. You are one of the official reporters to committees?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you have occasion this morning to report the
examination in executive session of Frasier S. Gardner?
Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Will you kindly read the questions and answers?
Eead them loud enough so we can hear.
Mr. Smith. I will read the questions and answers.
4080 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
(The witness read the questions and answers as follows:)
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, you previously appeared before this committee?
Mr. Gardner. Yes; in February.
Mr. Whitley. In connection with an application you had filed'.'
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. For a position as investigator?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you subsequently, I believe at that time you testified with
reference to your qualifications, experience, and connections, and so forth.
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And I believe you subsequently interviewed me on one or two
occasions with reference to the possibility of employment.
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Is that correct?
Mr. Gardner. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. Whitley. Are you still interested in securing a position with the com-
mittee?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. As an investigator?
Mr. Gardner, Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And your qualifications and experience are the same as they
were as you stated in your previous examination, without going over the same
ground?
Mr. Gardner. I think the qualification would be the same.
Mr. Whitley. I mean by qualifications your past connections with and pres-
ent connections are the same as you testified before.
Mr. Gardner. Surely.
Mr. Whitley. You have stated under oath you have no affiliations with or
associations or connections in any way that would disqualify you from prompt
performing service for the committee?
Mr. Gardner. No ; I am conducting a civic survey for Mr. Slieppard, of Cali-
fornia, with reference to District of Columbia liquor dispensaries.
Mr. Whitley. That has nothing to do with the committee's work?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. Or the committee's function?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitiey. In other words, you are not connected in any way that would
disqualify you from serving the committee.
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. In the capacity as an investigator?
Mr. Gardner. No.
Mr. Whitley. Giving the committee your full time?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
Mr. Whitney. And serving it to the best interest of the committee?
Mr. Gardner. That is right.
The Chairman. You are not connected with any group under investigation?
Mr. Gardner. No.
The Chairman. You are not connected with the bund, the Communist Party,
or civic parties, or Mr. Pelley, or other groups under investigation; is that
right?
All'. Gardner. That is right.
The Chairman. You have no connections whatsoever with any of them?
Mr. Gardner. No.
The Chairman. So you would be in position to render fair and impartial
service for the interest of the committee?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
The Chairman. You are not now or have ever received any pay from any
of these organizations or individuals?
Mr. Gardner. No.
The Chairman. I see.
Mr. WniTLEY. By now you mean at the present time?
The Chairman. At the present or at any time.
Mr. Whitley. Any kind of remuneration.
The Chairman. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. I presume that is what Mr. Gardner had in mind in answering
your inquiry.
UN-AMERICAN PROPACJANI >A ACTIVITIES 4081
The Chaium.an. Is that right V
Mr. Gardner. Yos.
Mr. Whitley. Is that correct?
Mr. Gardner. Yes.
The Chairman. You have no bias one way or the other insofar as any
phase — I believe we have covered that before. You have no bias?
Mr. Gardner. None whatsoever.
Mr. Whitley. None whatsoever.
The Chairman. Gentlemen, what are your suggestions with ref-
erence to this particular case? The Chair has a very definite idea
about it. Do you have anything to say?
Mr. Thomas. There is no question in my mind but what the gen-
tleman's testimony in executive session is just opposite from his testi-
mony in the public hearings. There is no question in my mind, also,
but what the gentleman has been making an effort to get on this com-
mittee at a time when he Mas being paid by one of the organizations
that we were investigating. I, for one, am in favor of going the limit
in making an example of him. I think there is a little too much of
this. Here is a clear-cut case, and 1 think we should act accordingly.
Mr. Gardner. May I have the privilege of making a short state-
ment {
The Chairman. We will consider it. Mr. Mason, do you have any
suggestions?
Mr. Mason. I feel about as Congressman Thomas has stated, that
the testimony under oath in the executive session is directly in con-
flict with his testimony under oath in this open hearing, and that, to
my mind, is a serious offense which cannot be passed over by this
committee. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. Voorhis?
Mr. Voorhis. I think that it is perfectly plain that Mr. Gardner
was well aware of the fact that he was in very close contact with Mr.
Pelley and his organization. He has testified in a number of dif-
ferent ways that that was the case, and I think it is pure subterfuge
for him to say he was paid by the Skyland Press rather than by
Pelley. I think that is merely a dodge. I am personally of the
opinion that his attempt to become an investigator was for the pur-
pose of benefiting the Pelley organization and perhaps others as-
sociated with him.
The Chairman. Mr. Gardner, do you have a statement to make ?
Mr. Gardner. Just a short one.
The Chairman. All right, you may make it.
Mr. Gardner. As God is my judge, if I never leave this seat, the
Skyland Press, Pelley, or any of the people connected with him knew
nothing of my application to the Dies committee, as I hope never to
leave this chair.
The Chairman. Is that your statement?
Mr. Gardner. That is a definite statement for the record, and it
will stand in any court of law.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Gardner. Let me finish, if you please; I wras employed by the
Skyland Press after I made the application to the committee. That
is for the record. I was paid by the Skyland Press. I have never
been paid by William Dudley Pelley. That is all I have to say.
4082 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, what is the course of procedure
against this witness? Does this come within the term or constitute
contumacy?
Mr. Whitley. It would come within the category of perjury.
The Chairman. Does the committee want to take it under advise-
ment, or what action do you wish taken ?
Mr. Thomas. I am in favor of acting on it right now.
The Chairman. The Chair wants to make this clear, that any appli-
cant for employment as investigator, or ai^one else, who undertakes
to secure any connection with this committee upon the basis of false
statements of facts, or for the purpose of supplying information to
any of the subversive groups under investigation, will be dealt with
to the utmost within our power. It is not so much to make an exam-
ple, but it will be done in every- case and in every single instance. It
seems to the Chair that this is a clear case showing that the Pelley
organization has undertaken by this method to secure information in
advance and to sabotage this investigation, which this committee will
not permit. We have had suggestions before that efforts were being
made in different ways to accomplish the same purpose.
The committee will consider this matter in executive session and
will make a definite recommendation as to the correct procedure to
adopt,
Mr. Thomas. Right now ?
The Chairman. Yes; the committee will go into executive session,
and the hearings will be resumed at 1 : 30 o'clock this afternoon.
(Thereupon the committee went into executive session.)
AFTER RECESS
The committee resumed its session, following the recess, at 1 : 30
o'clock p. m.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order. The Chair will
read the resolution unanimously adopted by the committee in execu-
tive session, as follows :
After careful discussion and consideration in executive session, August 23,
1939, the following resolution was unanimously adopted by the Special Congres-
sional Committee on UnAmerican Activities :
"It is hereby resolved, That a statement of facts concerning the testimony given
by Mr. Fraser Gardner under oath before this committee be referred to the
United States attorney for the District of Columbia for appropriate prosecutive
action under the perjury statutes or any other statute appertaining in the case."
In recommending that this case be referred to the proper authori-
ties for further action, the committee wishes to make clear that in
the case of every witness where the facts warrant a similar procedure
will be followed. Witnesses have been warned that deliberate mis-
statements of fact before the commitee will not be tolerated where
such misstatements are material and clearly made. The committee
feels that the circumstances in the present case are of a specially
grave nature. Here we appear to have an individual who sought
employment with the committee as an investigator and who upon
two occasions under oath denied any connection with any organiza-
tion or individual under investigation. The witness was accorded
full opportunity in executive session to disclose all of the facts.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4083
It appears that the witness concealed and denied material facts for
the purpose of securing employment with the committee as investi-
gator, in which position he would have been able to act as an under-
cover agent for an organization which is opposed to, and which is
attempting to, sabotage this investigation. The committee has hud
strong suspicions that similar attempts have been made in (he past
and it has received informal ion concerning other individuals who
have held themselves out as representatives and investigators !'<>r this
committee, when, as a matter of fact, they had no connection with
this committee.
In view of the serious aspects of this case, the committee feels that
it is its duty to refer all of the facts and circumstances to the appro-
priate authority for such action as may be deemed warranted.
The committee will stand in recess until tomorrow morning at 10
o'clock. The committee will now go into executive session.
(The committee went into executive session, following which it
adjourned to meet tomorrow, Thursday, August 24, 1939, at 10 a. m.)
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INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
THURSDAY, AUGUST 24, 1939
House of Representatives,
Special Committee to Investigate
un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C.
The committee met at 10 a. m., in the caucus room, House Office
Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding.
Present : Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
I do not know how the committee feels about it, but I think it
might be well if counsel could, at his leisure, supply the committee
with information as to what course can be taken here with diplomatic
representatives of foreign countries meddling in domestic affairs,
conferring with people representing domestic organizations, and ex-
pressing interest in internal disputes, manifesting a sympathy for
movement in this country; whether or not any of the treaties of
foreign countries with the American Government contain some clause
which would authorize us to take action.
It occurs to me, and certainly the evidence continues to pile up here
of representatives of foreign governments meddling in purely domestic
affairs, seeking to divide our people into hostile camps, and I am
wondering if there is not some provision in the treaties which prohibit
that kind of thing, prohibit the German and Italian Embassies and
representatives of other foreign governments from engaging in that
character of work, that is entirely outside of their legitimate field.
I know the American people could request their recall but there
must be a specific provision in the treaties that applies to such infor-
mation as the committee is receiving here.
Mr. Voorhis. What would you think of American representatives
in foreign countries doing a similar thing?
The Chairman. If American representatives were in Germany or
in Italy and joined in a movement contrary to the Nazi or Fascist
regime, it would create an international crisis, probably threat of war,
and I am inclined to think that the evidence here continues to pile up
not by willing but unwilling witnesses, which shows definitely that
there have been movements, of any number of contacts with embassies,
conversations with them, all of which indicate very clearly, at least
to mv mind, that thev are trespassing upon a domain in which they
have" no legitimate business and that they are outside of their sphere
of activity and that some action should be taken to call a show down
in some instances.
94931— 39— vol. 6 25 4085
4086 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
That is just my own individual thought.
Do any members of the committee have any suggestion on that point
for the record \
All right, Mr. Allen, you may resume the stand.
TESTIMONY OF HENRY B. ALLEN— Resumed
Mr. Allen. Mr. Chairman, may I say a word to that point ?
The Chairman. You may.
Mr. Allen. As far as I am personally concerned I would like to
clear up in the committee's mind that there has been no counsellor or
any representative of any foreign power ever made any approach
to me.
The Chairman. Your testimony stands; you have already testified
with reference to the facts and circumstances of your visit to the
German and Italian Embassies.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. And what was said.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. And to the same thing that happened in the
Deatherage case ; George Deatherage was to see them.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. And I think it is absolutely a violation of the spirit
if not the letter of the treaties with these foreign countries and the
matter ought to be gone into and for that reason I have asked counsel
to do that.
Mr. Allen. Furthermore, Mr. Chairman, I would like to make it
very clear that as an American citizen, whose ancestry goes back to
the Battle of Lexington, I have never been nor will ever be an agent
of any foreign government.
The Chairman. All right, let us proceed.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, when the hearing was adjourned day
before yesterday we were discussing your eastern trip. You had
testified with reference to your activities and contacts in Washington,
Kansas, West Virginia, New York, and I think we were back in Chi-
cago. You testified that you had contacted or attempted to contact
this party out there. Do you recall what his name was ?
Mr. Allen. In Chicago?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. You mean Father Stachiewicz.
Mr. Whitley. And did you see him there ?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. He was out of town?
Mr. Allen. He was away.
Mr. Whitley. But you attempted to see him on instructions from
Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Who else did you see or attempt to see in Chicago,
Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. I saw Dr. Uznansky.
Mr. Whitley. And who is Dr. Uznansky?
Mr. Allen. He is a practicing physician in Chicago.
Mr. Whitley. And he is the man, I believe you stated, who was
active among the Polish people in Chicago?
ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4087
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr, Whitley. And who is in sympathy, or was in sympathy, with
the work you were doing and which the groups with which you were
cooperating were doing %
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And I believe you reported that he told you at the
time you were in Chicago that his work in the Polish element was
progressing very nicely?
Mr. Allen. He told me?
Air. Whitley. He told you that.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was there any discussion as to his activities and
the activities of the various groups associated w7ith him?
Mr. Allen. No; the conversation, I do not believe, lasted over an
hour, possibly.
Mr. Whitley. Did you have any conversation as to his plans and
activities?
Mr. Allen. Just conversation as to what had been done in that
area and in South Chicago, and he requested that I return and make
some addresses there,
Mr. Whitley. You did not make any addresses at the time you
were there?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Does he have an organization, a definite organiza-
tion ?
Mr. Allen. I can't say whether he has a definite organization; it
just seemed to be more or less a loose-knit affair in that area among
the Polish people.
Mr. "Whitley. And you stated his activities in that section were
among Polish people ?
Mr. Allen. The Polish people, yes.
Mr. Whitley. Why did you go to Chicago — w7as your contact with
Mr. Uznansky in accordance with your instructions from Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. Well, I contacted Uznansky as being the man through
whom I would see Father Stachiewicz.
Mr. "Whitley. But Mrs. Fry wanted to know what the plans were
among the Polish people and what the work, how the work had been
done.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Who else did you see or attempt to see in Chicago?
Mr. Allen. I saw Dillings,
Mr. Whitley. What is his initials?
Mr. Allen. Albert, I believe, Dillings.
Mr, Whitley. Husband of Mrs. Dillings who wrote the red
Mr. Allen (interposing). The Red Network and Roosevelts Red
Work.
Mr. Whitley. And what was the purpose of that meeting at that
time?
Mr. Allen. Just as a social call, as I was passing through ; that was
all.
Mr. Whitley. Did you discuss with him your activities out there '.
Mr. Allen. Just only in a brief way.
Mr. Whitley. In a brief way?
4088 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. Mrs. Dillings, at that time was away, out of town,
and I had really intended to see her, but that wasn't possible.
Mr. Whitley. Who else in Chicago did you see?
Mr. Allen. I also called on the commissioner of police.
Mr. Whitley. Allman?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What was the purpose of that call?
Mr. Allen. The purpose of that call was to protest against the
propaganda picture called the Blockade.
Mr. Whitley. And was that protest effective ?
Mr. Allen. I understand so. I understand they withdrew the
picture, or caused it to be withdrawn.
Mr. Whitley. You protested against the picture of Blockade being
shown in Chicago?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Will you develop that testimony around the picture,
Blockade, a litle more fully; have the witness describe the picture?
Mr. Wiiiti ey. You described the picture as being propaganda.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. "\\ hitlly. Will you enlarge on that?
Mr. Allen. Well, I do not think that I recall the details of the
picture anymore than a general impression. My own general im-
pression of it was that the picture described or magnified the Jewish
persecution in Germany
Mr. Whitley. Magnified?
Mr. Allen. The Jewish persecution in Germany and aroused a
feeling of hatred on the part of people in this country against a
freindly nation.
Mr. Wh.tley. You say it was designed to exaggerate the situation?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. How would you say it exaggerated it; do you know
what the situation was?
Mr. Allen. In Germany?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. Only as to what I have read; I haven't been there.
Mr. Whitley. But in your own opinion
Mr. Allen (interposing). In my own opinion the picture was de-
signed for the purpose of arousing the hatred of the people in this
country against a friendly nation.
Mr. Whitley. I see, and for that reason you went there to work
with some others in
Mr. Allen (interposing). I was quite alone in that.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know whether they were sympathetic to
that attempt?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. And you think the picture was withdrawn?
Mr. Allen. I think so, but I don't know whether it was or not.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, the picture was shown in Chi-
cago, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. I believe it was afterwards, yes.
Mr. Whitley. Are you sure it had to do with Germany or with
Spain?
Mr. Allen. Well, it had to do with, as I remember, I think there
were some Spanish scenes shown in some part of it.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4089
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever seen the picture?
Mr. Allen. I saw it once, but I have seen so many pictures I don't
recall the details. 4
Mr. YViiitley. You are very hazy about the details of it?
Mr. Allen. At this time I am.
Mr. Whitley. You just recall that you thought it should not be
shown ?
Mr. Allen. Well, I made quite a bit of memoranda of the picture
and I have the memoranda, but I do not attempt to remember all
the details.
Mr. Whitley. Did you contact or see anyone else while you were
in Chicago?
Mr. Allen. I don't recall that I did.
Mr. Whitley. And from Chicago you returned to the West again ;
is that right?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Arriving back in California at what date; do you
recall ?
Mr. Allen. Well, I think it was about, on or about the 10th of
February.
Mr. Whitley. Now, there was one other trip or one other place
you went on that trip, Mr. Allen, which you haven't covered, and I
would like for you to do so.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You went to Atlanta from Washington?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And that was on specific information or instructions
from Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. On urgent instructions. i
Mr. Whitley. Urgent instructions?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Will you describe to the committee the purpose of
that trip to Atlanta and why Mrs. Fry wanted you to go to Atlanta,
Ga.?
Mr. Allen. According to her expressed desire I should go to
Atlanta, Ga , for the purpose of contacting Mr. Evans.
The Chairman. What Evans is that?
Mr. Allen. Hiram W. Evans.
Mr. Whitley. Who was he?
Mr. Allen. He at that time was the nominal head of the Ku Klux I
Klan.
Mr. Whitley. And what was the purpose of your contacting him?
Mr. Allen. To ascertain whether there was any chance of reviving
the Klan and its activities on the Pacific coast.
Mr. Whitley. I see. You say reviving. Don't you mean having
the Klan become more active?
not Mr. Allen. Having the Klan become more active,
Mr. Whitley. On the Pacific coast.
Mr. Allen. On the Pacific coast; yes.
Mr. Whitley. And was that move a success ; what was Mr. Evans'
response to that suggestion?
Mr. Allen. Mr. Evans was not at all enthusiastic about it, insofar
as California, especially.
Mr. Whitley. He does have an organization out there?
4090 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. Yes ; I understand there is.
Mr. Whitley. He has an organization there but Mrs. Fry didn't
think it was active enough and thought it could be even better.
Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry, to come to the point now
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry desired, in some way, to accomplish the con-
trol of the Klan.
Mr. Whitley. She wanted to get control of it ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. On the West coast?
Mr. Allen. She wanted to control the Klan.
Mr. Whitley. The whole Klan?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. The national organization?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And what was her plan to accomplish its control?
Mr. allfn. To bring it back again to its old activities.
Mr. Whitley. Its old activity?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. As it formerly was; she felt if she had charge of
it she thought s^e could get it active again?
Mr. A llen. That is the wav it appealed to me.
Mr. Whitley. And how did she propose to get control ; just how
was she going to get control ; how was she going to get it turned over
to hpr?
Mr. Allen. It seemed to be the idea that Mr. Evans would transfer
it over for a price.
Mr. Whitley She wanted to buy the organization ?
Mr. Allen. Well, I do not know that she wanted to buy; she
seemed to think that he would
Mr. Whitley. That he would sell?
Mr. Allen. That is right ; sell its membership list.
Mr. Whitley. Sell its membership?
Mr. Allen. Its membership list ; she wanted the list.
Mr. Whitley. She wanted the membership list ?
Mr. Allen. That is what I felt.
Mr. Whitley. Now, what price did she name was set as being
willing to pay if this deal could be put through?
Mr. Allen. Well, I think there was some vague mention of a
matter on one or two occasions; that she thought if the thing could
be arranged for possibly $75,000.
Mr. Whitley. Did she indicate she would be willing, possibly, to
pay $75,000 if it could be arranged?
Mr. Allen. Not that she would be willing, but that the matter
might be arranged.
Mr. Whitley. She indicated she thought she could get the monev
for it? * J
Mr. Allen. If she thought it could be arranged.
Mr. Whitley. Will you describe for the record or repeat for the
record your conversation with Mr. Evans, in as much detail as pos-
sible, Mr. Allen ?
Mr. Allen. Well that is going to be rather skimpy; a great deal
has happened since that time.
Mr. Whitley. At least cover the salient points of that conversa-
tion.
of a
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4091
Mr. Allen. I met Mr. Evans in the Henry Grady Hotel.
Mr. Whitley. In Atlanta. GaJ
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was thai done by appointment?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Before you went down there?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did you know him previously?
Mr. Allen. Never.
Mr. Whitley. Never knew him?
Mr. Allen. No. And I discussed the matter of a possible succes-
sor to Mr. Evans, and more or less outlined to him the question of
reviving the Klan in California.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. And he said that he wasn't interested; he said he
didn't, think it was possible to revive the Klan in a State like Cali-
fornia with its Epic plan, its Dr. Townsend plan, and its "Get Some-
thing for Nothing" plan. He wasn't interested.
Ha was lying on a bed ; he was feeling quite ill at that time and he
advised me to go back to California and to try to work with — I believe
he said Mr. Snelson.
Mr. Whitley. Did you know who Snelson was?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. You had no contact with him?
Mr. Allen. I never saw the man ; I never looked him up.
Mr. Whitley. But you would say at that time he was one of the
Klan
Mr. Allen (interposing). He is the nominal head, I am told, of
the Klan in California.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen (continuing). Southern California.
Mr. Whitley. In Southern California?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Where is he located?
Mr. Allen. Los Angeles.
Mr. Whitley. In Los Angeles?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. All right, continue your interview with Mr. Evans.
Mr. Allen. Well, that was about all it pertained to. He just said he
wasn't interested and there was nothing to talk about.
Mr. Whitley. Did you mention a possible price to him ?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. If the deal could be made ?
Mr. Allen. No; I didn't.
Mr. Whitley. You didn't mention that?
Mr. Allen. No; It would have been entirely out
Mr. Whitley (interposing). In other wwds, you didn't take that
up with him ?
Mr. Allen. No ; there was nothing to be said.
The Chairman. Did vou discuss with him getting the membership
list at all ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Anything else in that conversation with reference to
the activities of the Klan, either in California or other places?
4092 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. No; there was not, Mr. Chairman; because Governor
Rivers came into the room at about that; time, and the conversation was
interrupted, and I did not have any more to say, and I wasn't particu-
larly in harmony with the proposition anyway.
Mr. Whitley. Did Governor Rivers hear this conversation you had
with Mr. Evans?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. It had nothing to do with your visit?
Mr. Allen. None whatsoever.
Mr. Whitley. With your trip?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. You didn't have an opportunity to get around to
making a definite proposition to purchase the membership list?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Did he indicate the extent of the membership of the
Klan?
Mr. Allen. No; he didn't indicate it; and I certainly didn't ask him.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Were you acquainted at the time you talked
with him with any of the Klan's leaders on the west coast?
Mr. Allen. Only one, who has shown me his card.
Mr. Whitley. Do you have any information as to the extent of the
membership of the Klan on the west coast ?
Mr. Allen. Pardon me ; I have met two.
Mr. Whitley. You have met two ?
Mr. Allen. I have met two.
Mr. Whitley. Are they leaders or members?
Mr. Allen. No ; they are leaders.
Mr. Whitley. The}' are leaders ? Can you give us the names of those
leaders, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. One's name was Charles Slocombe, of Long Beach.
Mr. Whitley. And who is the other one ?
Mr. Allen. And another by the name, I believe, of L. D. Baker.
Mr. Whitley. Where is he located?
Mr. Allen. Fresno.
Mr. Whitley. In Fresno?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What position? You said they were leaders; do you
know what position?
Mr. Allen. I would say organizers.
Mr. Whitley. Organizers?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did they ever indicate the extent of the member-
ship and activities of the Klan?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. On the west coast ?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. And you don't know?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. You had no opportunity to make a definite proposal
or a final arrangement whereby Mrs. Fry might get control of the
Klan?
Mr. Allen. None whatsoever.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4093
Mr Whitley. And of her proposition of being willing to raise or
trying to get $75,000 to buy the membership so she couM put new
life into it and then make it active again?
Mr. Allen. I wasn't — I was much impressed that her desire was
to get the membership names.
Mr. Whitley. I see. That was her principal interest?
Mr. Allen. I was impressed that way.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever discuss with her subsequently what
she had planned to or what she might have done if she had gotten
control of the membership?
Mr. Allen. No. I remember several times that she said if she had
anything to do with it it certainly would be made more active, or
words to that effect.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. As a matter of fact, the Klan has subse-
quently, the leadership, has been changed ?
Mr. Allen. I so understand.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether the list was sold
Mr. Allen (interposing.) I haven't the least idea.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether someone else may have
made, or had a similar idea, with better success, and might have been
able to put the deal through?
Mr. Allen. I couldn't say as to that.
Mr. Whitley. Reading from a news item dated June 11, 1931), un-
der a date line of Atlanta, Ga. :
James Arnold Colescott, 42 years old, former veterinarian, succeeded Dr.
Hiram W. Evans, one-time dentist as imperial wizard of the Ku Klux Klan
today. A native of Terre Haute, Ind., Dr. Colescott had served 2 years as Dr.
Evans' chief of staff.
You know nothing personally about that arrangement?
Mr. Allen. Only that I met the man in Atlanta.
Mr. Whitley. You met the man?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What was Colescott doing then?
Mr. Allen. He was in the office; in fact, I went to him as the man
to contact Dr. Evans.
Mr. Whitley. I see.
Mr. Allen. And he wTas the man who introduced himself as being
in charge of the office there at that time ; that was all the conversation.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know anything about the plans lie
might have had at the time?
Mr. Allen. He merely made the appointment for me to meet Dr.
Evans, that was all.
Mr. Wthitley. I see. And the presence of the Governor there at
that time, when you were with Mr. Evans in Atlanta
Mr. Allen (interposing). Had no significance whatsoever.
Mr. Wh.tley. With your visit?
Mr. Allen. None whatsoever.
Mr. Whitley. It was entirely separate ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. We touched the other day, Mr. Allen, on the visit of
Mr. Beamish to this country and you spoke of an engagement that he
fulfilled on the west coast. We did not go into a great deal of details
about that visit and I would like to get back to that visit for a few
minutes and try to develop it a little further.
4094 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
As I recall, you testified, you said that upon learning of Mr. Beam-
ish coming to this country you undertook to arrange some speaking
engagements for him or put him in touch with people.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And help him in the work out there ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. There were some individuals that you mentioned
with reference to Mr. Beamish's visit, were there not ?
Mr. Allen. As I recall I first telegraphed to Mr. Ingalls.
Mr. Whitley. What are his initials?
Mr. Allen. I think his name is — his initials are C. I., if I recall
correctly.
Mr. Whitley. All right,
Mr. Allen. Clayton, I believe.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he is identified with any
organization ?
Mr. Allen. Not that I know of.
Mr. Whitley. He is independent?
Mr. Allen. I believe so, and then I also, on the long distance tele-
phone, if I remember correctly, called Mr. Kullgren, of Atascadero,
and I asked him to arrange a meeting there. And I also got in touch
with Mr. Schwinn, of the German-American bund, and I asked him
to arrange a meeting there,
Mr. Whitley. I see.
Mr. Allen. I also got in touch with Martin Luther Thomas, that
is Rev. Martin Luther Thomas, and asked him to arrange a meeting
for Beamish in his church.
I don't recall any others.
Mr. Whitley. What are your relations with Mr. Ingalls? Have
you been associated with or known him?
Mr. Allen. I have only met Mr. Ingalls once. I have had one or
two short letters from him.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know what his general program or plans
are — what his activities are?
Mr. Allen. Well, his activities are much the same, I believe, as
some of the others. He has a very peculiar way, however, of ex-
pressing them on paper.
Mr. Whitley. But, in general, his viewpoint
Mr. Allen. In a general way, his viewpoint, I would say, is con-
sonant with ours.
Mr. Whitley. Is consonant with yours?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, he is sympathetic with your activi-
ties?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And you are sympathetic with his activities?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Are you speaking about Beamish now?
Mr. Whitley. No ; I am speaking about Ingalls.
The Chairman. Did you make clear who Beamish is?
Mr. Whitley. We are speaking about Ingalls now. I am going
back to Beamish. I am leading up to the making of speaking
arrangements.
UN-AMEMCAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4095
Mr. Ingalls, in a genera] way. understood and was sympathetic
with your program and yon likewise understood and were sympathetic
•with liis program ?
Mr. Aij.kx. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. Now. did any of those individuals actually arrange
speaking engagements for Captain Beamish?
Mr. Ai i in. I think they did.
Mr. Whitley. Yon think they did make arrangements for him to
speak (
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Captain Beamish, as yon stated the other day, I
believe, is the gentleman from South Africa '.
Mr. Allen. He is a member of Parliament in South Rhodesia.
Mr. Whitley. In South Rhodesia?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And he is identified with the organization known as
Brit a ins?
Mr. Allen. He was founder of Britains, and I know he retains
his identification with the organization at this time.
Air. Whitley. Do you consider that organization a Fascist organi-
zation, a Fascist group?
Mr. Allen. Well. Mr. Chairman, that I would not be able to answer,
because I have no idea what the term "FascisC refers to, or what
activities.
Mr. Whitley. How would you describe the group, then ; what is
your impression of it?
Mr. Allen. It is definitely and strongly anti-Jewish Communist.
The Chairman. Of course, he is also sympathetic with Hitler, is he
not ? Has he not expressed himself sympathetic with Hitler?
Mr. Allen. I believe so.
The Chairman. Sympathetic with the Nazi movement ?
Mr. Allen. Y"es; I believe he has. And I further believe he visits
Germany and knows Mr. Hitler.
The Chairman. The fact is that a great many of these people who
are anti-Jewish Communists are also, for some reason, very sympa-
thetic with Hitler, are they not?
Mr. Allen. I would not say so, Mr. Chairman ; no, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Now, when did Captain Beamish arrive in Cali-
fornia ?
Mr. Allen. Well, it was just shortl}7 — I would say about the middle
of December.
Mr. Whitley. 1938?
Mr. Allen. 1938 ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. 1938; last year?
Mr. Allen. No; not last vear.
Mr. Whitley. 1937 ?
Mr. Allen. 1937: yes.
Mr. Whitley. December 1937?
Mr. Allen. Yes; December 1937.
Mr. Whitley. Did he enter the United States on the west coast or
did he enter one of the eastern ports ?
Mr. Allen. Well, I know he arrived in Los Angeles on the steam-
ship Thrush at San Pedro.
Mr. Whitley. And did you meet him when he came in ?
4096 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you know he had previously visited Canada
before he came to California?
Mr. Allen. I believe he did.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know who he visited up there ?
Mr. Allen. He visited Mr. Adrien Arcand.
Mr. Whitley. Where is Mr. Arcand located in Canada?
Mr. Allen. Mr. Arcand is located in Montreal.
Mr. Whitley. And what organization does he sponsor, or is he the
head of, in Canada?
Mr. Allen. I think it is called — I think it is called "Canadian Fas-
1 cists," but I am not sure.
Mr. Whitley. "Canadian Fascists?"
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Wpiitley. It has also been referred to, I believe, as "Canadian
National Federation."
Mr. Alijn. Yes; that is what I refer to — the "Canadian National
Federation."
Mr. Whitley. He is frequently referred to as a Canadian Fascist,
is he not?
Mr. Allen. He says he is.
Mr. Whitley. He describes himself as a Canadian Fascist?
Mr. Allen. He says he is; yes.
Mr. Whitley. And Mr. Beamish was a good friend of his, or
Mr. Allen. I don't know as to that; I don't know he was any
more than simply calling on him. I don't know as to that.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Arcand was making speaking
arrangements for him in California?
Mr. Allen. That I could not say.
Mr. Whitley. Getting back to Cantain Beamish : Did Mr. Ingails
arrange any speaking engagements for him?
Mr. Allen. For Beamish?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And what was the nature of those affairs; were they
invitation affairs, or did they sell tickets?
Mr. Allen. No. I think it was by admission card. I was not
present myself, so I have no knowledge.
Mr. Whitley. That was in San Francisco?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know what leaders were invited to that
meeting ?
Mr. Allen. That I don't know.
Mr. Whitley. Or how many were there?
Mr. Allen. I could not say as to that.
Mr. Whitley. Where else did Captain Beamish speak on the west
coast ?
Mr. Allen. He spoke in Atascadero.
Mr. Whitley. That meeting was sponsored by whom?
Mr. Allen. By Mr. Kullgren, I believe, and I think he spoke also
in Oakland, and he spoke in Los Angeles several times.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know who sponsored, or what group spon-
sored any of those meetings?
Mr. Allen. Well, when he spoke in Mr. Thomas' church, why, it
was sponsored by the Christian American Crusade.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4097
Mr. Whitley. The Christian American Crusade?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did the Silver Shirts participate in any of those
meetings '.
Mi*. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. They did not '.
Mr. Allen. No. sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did the German-American Bund participate in any
of those gatherings?
Mr. Allen. I would say so, although I was not present.
Mr. Whitley. They were represented — it is your impression or
understanding they were represented?
Mr. Allen Well, lie was invited to speak at the German house.
Mr. Whitley. He was?
Mr. Allen. He was.
Mr. Whitley. And did he accept that invitation?
Mr. Allen. He did.
Mr. Whitley. And spoke there?
Mr. Allen. He spoke there ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. That meeting, of course, was sponsored by the bund?
Mr. Allen. I would say so.
Mr. Whittey. W7here did he stay while he was in Los Angeles, or
in that vicinity ?
Mr. Allen. He stayed at a hotel ; I think it is named the "Carlton,"
right opposite the Biltmore Hotel.
Mr. Whitley. Did not he also visit in the home of some people in
that vicinity \
Mr. Allen. Not in Los Angeles, except in my own home; that is all.
Mr. Whitley. I see, Who are "Charles" and "Laura"?
Mr. Allen. I have no idea who Charles and Laura may be.
Mr. Whitley. How long was Captain Beamish on the west coast
altogether ?
Mr. Allen. Well, he arrived, as I said before, about the middle of
December, and he left, I would say, the early part of or about the mid-
dle of January. I think he was there about a month, all told.
Mr. Whitley. About a month?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You were in contact with him ; did he have any con-
ferences with Mrs. Fry Avhile he was there?
Mr. Allen. He tried to, but there was no contact.
Mr. Whitley. There was no contact?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know Mr. and Mrs. Curtiss?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did Captain Beamish stay in their home?
Mr. Allen. He visited there.
Mr. Whitley. He visited there?
Mr. Allen. But not in Los Angeles.
Mr. Whitley. I said in that vicinity.
Mr. Allen. We don't consider San Diego is in the vicinity of Los
Angeles. That is why I answered that way.
Mr. Whitley. You do know he stayed with them?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. He visited for some time with them, did he not?
4098 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. I think lie was there several days.
Mr. Whitley. That is the same Mr. and Mrs. Charles Curtiss
whom General Moseley testified he visited in their home?
Mr. Allen. The name is not Charles Curtiss; the name is Fraser.
Mr. Whitley. Fraser?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What is Mrs. Curtiss' name?
Mr. Allen. Dianna.
Mr. Whiiley. And you don't know whether that is the same Mr.
and Mrs. Curtiss whom General Moseley testified he visited while
he was out there?
Mr. Allen. Well, I have no idea as to General Moseley's move-
ments on the Pacific coast.
Mr. Whitley. You were friendly with Mr. and Mrs. Curtiss?
Mr. Allen. Oh, yes.
Mr. Whitley. You know their activities, certainly, insofar as
affects your interests?
Mr. All-n. Yes; I know who they are.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, right at that point : Mr. Whitley,
lias it been brought out by Mr. Allen how this Captain Beamish
happened to come here originally; who invited him?
Mr. Whitley. It has not been brought out clearly, Mr. Thomas,
but we will bring it out.
Was Captain Beamish invited to come to this country, to make
these speeches, or did he come
Mr. Allen. Not to my knowledge. In fact, the first I knew of
Captain Beamislrs in-esence in the country was when he made a
speech in the New York Hippodrome, which was during the early
part of December — no; during the early part of November, of that
year, at wlrch some 5,000 people were present, and at which also
Mr. Edmondson spoke, and Mr. Arcand also spoke.
Mr. Whitley. At the Hippodrome meeting.
Mr. Allen. At the Hippodrome meeting.
Mr. Whitley. And you don't know whether he just came here
voluntarily, or was invited by some American groups or activities?
Mr. Allen. I have no knowledge as to that.
Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether Captain Beamish was paid
for those speeches on the Pacific coast?
Mr. Allen. Never. I don't think Captain Beamish would accept
anv money for making these speeches.
Mr. Thomas. Did he receive traveling expenses?
Mr. Allen. I had been told that it would be a good thing if Cap-
tain Beamish's expenses could be met in some way, because he was on
his own.
Mr. Thomas. And where they met, do you know?
Mr. Allen. That I don't know. I don't think they were met to
anv degree, if thev were at all.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, in vour letter dated "Los Anjreles. De-
cember 24, 1937," to Mr. C. F. Ingalls, 2702 Bush Street, San Fran-
cisco, Calif., you state:
Just a line to advise you that arrangements have been made with Capt.
H. H. Beamish by which he has consented to address such meetings as ran
he arranged by you ami our other frier ds in the San Francisco Bay region
on the following dates : January 5, 6, and 7.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4099
You go on in the letter to discuss plans for speaking arrangements
and for Captain Beamish's visit. That was in keeping with testi-
mony you gave concerning your efforts to assist Captain Beamish in
arranging speaking engagements?
Mr. Allen. Now, Mr. Chairman, just here I want to say a word.
That letter that you are reading there is from a photostat, I imagine,
and that is quite all right; but those photostats are all taken from
letters which were stolen and illegally seized from my brief case at the
time of my arrest in San Diego, and I want to respectfully disclaim
any responsibility as to their authenticity or correctness; because
those Utters, at the time they were illegally seized by the police
department, were passed into the hands of the Jewish Anti-deiama- |
lion League, the B'nai B'rith.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know that, or is that a conclusion?
Mr. Allen. I have been told that.
Mr. Whitley. You have been told that?
Mr. Allen. By others.
Mr. Whitley. They were seized by the police in San Diego?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; they were illegally seized by the police.
Mr. Whitley. Well, was that ever officially declared, or stated, or
decided by a court?
Mr. A llen. Yes, sir ; by my attorney.
Mr. Whitney. Did a court ever decide they were illegally seized?
Mr. Allen. No. We have not gone to court about that yet.
Mr. Whitley. You and your attorney have agreed they were
illegally seized \
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. But a court has never passed on that question?
Mr. All-in. No.
Mr. Whitley. They were seized at the time you were arrested,
were they not, and you were arrested and formally charged with an
offense I
Mr. Allen. Yes; correct.
Mr. Whitley. And, of course, the arresting officers can seize evi-
dence on the person of the party who is arrested, at the time of the
arrest ?
Mr. Allen. Well I, of course, am not prepared to argue that.
Mr. Whitley. The fact remains that certain documents
The Chairman. What was he charged with; what was the charge
against him?
Mr. Whitley. Distributing circulars.
Mr. Allen. The charge, Mr. Chairman, was for the distribution
of anti-Jewish Communist leaflets in San Diego.
Mr. Whitley. The charge was distributing circulars without hav-
ing obtained permission to do so ; is not that correct ?
Mr. Allen. Well, that was not the charge. The charge under
which I was really held was for the possession of a deadly weapon
and, under that, I was held in $10,000 bond, and the weapon was
an 18-inch stick.
Mr. Whitley. That was a stick Mr. James True sent to you
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. For your son, found in your possession?
Mr. Allen. That was a stick Mr. True sent to my son to protect
himself against further attacks after he had lost his left eye.
4100 CX- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Do you remember writing that letter; do you say
that it not
Mr. Allen. I think that is mine. My signature is not here, but
I think I identify the letter.
Mr. Whitley. You identify the letter, then?
Mr. Allen. I think so; yes. I just want to make, in a general way,
that statement.
Mr. Vooriiis. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question.
Mr. Allen, I understand that you charge that the police in San
Diego turned over your material to some other organization?
Mr. Allen. They turned over my material to the Jews of San
Diego.
Mr. Voorhis. You cannot prove that; as I understand it, you have
no proof of that, but you make-that charge against the police depart-
ment in San Diego?
Mr. Allen. Well, the proof I have is a Jew organization in Los
Angeles have photostatic copies.
Mr. Whitley. How do you know that?
Mr. Allen. I have seen them, and my attorney, Mr. Elder, has
seen them in Los Angeles.
Mr. Whitley. Who else did the San Diego police
Mr. Allen. After the Jews got through with them, Ed Goodman
and Nate Baranov, head of the Anti-Defamation League of San
Diego, passed them over; then they were passed back to the sheriff's
office, and the sheriff's office passed them over
Mr. Whitley. How do you know that?
Mr. A llen. By the statement of my attorney, who was down there.
Mr. Whitley. He was right there and saw it done?
Mr. Allen. Mr. Thomas Whelan was there all the time.
Mr. Whitley. Every time this material was passed over to some-
body ?
Mr. Allen. They called him.
Mr. Whitley. They called him?
Mr. Allen. That is what he stated to me — they called him.
Mr. Whitley. Did they have to get permission?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Then why did they call him?
Mr. Allen. I don't know why.
Mr. Whitley. The police had seized it at the time they arrested
you ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Which they had a right to do?
Mr. Allen. I don't know as to that.
Mr. Whitley. The arresting officer can seize evidence at the time
of the arrest. In spite of your description '"illegal seizure," that is
a very definite and broad accusation, the fact remains that any officer
can seize any material found on the person of the partj^ who is
arrested.
Now, as a matter of fact, this material was turned over and made
available, because of the nature of it — was made available to other
law-enforcement agencies, was it not?
Mr. Allen. But first to the Jews.
Mr. Whitley. That is what you think; you cannot prove that?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4101
Mr. Allen. Mr. Whelan can prove it — Mr. Whelan, former dis-
trict attorney ;it San Diego, knows what took place.
Mr. Whitley. How will he prove it \
Mr. Ai.i.kx. By his being there. lie stated to me he was present.
Mr. Vookhis. Why did not he object to it then, Mr. Aden?
Mr. Ai.i.kx. He did. seriously and strenuously.
Mr. Wnn iky. If it was not proper, then the court would have to
decide the material should not have been turned over?
Mi'. Ai.i.kx. Of course I am not prepared for that, because Mr.
Whelan stated to me what was done. I am not an attorney and can-
not argue those points.
The Chairman. The main question is: You do not deny the con-
tents of the letter?
Mr. Ai.i.kx. Not this letter here; I do not deny this letter here,
because I think I recall it.
Mr. Whitley. You think you recall that one?
Mr. Allen. Yes; I think I can, offhand.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask right there:
Mr. Allen, I would like also to know whether you have received the
originals back, or not?
Mr. Allen. After the letters passed into the sheriff's hands, they
were passed to the Naval Intelligence for their examination, and
from Naval Intelligence they went to Military Intelligence for their
examination, and they both said they were not at all interested in
any of them at that time.
Mr. Whitley. To whom did they say that?
Mr. Allen. To my attorney, Mr. Whelan.
Mr. Whitley. They said they were not interested ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. They did not say it to you?
Mr. Allen. No; they said it to Mr. Thomas Whelan, former dis-
trict attorney of San Diego.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether it is customary for the In-
telligence Service to make such statements to private individuals re-
garding evidence in their possession, or not?
^ Mr. Allen. I know this, Mr. Chairman, that a representative of the
F. B. I. came to my home and told me that they were not interested
in the contents.
Mr. Whitley. Did he turn them back to you?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir; to my attorney; he did not turn them back to
me outright.
Mr. Whitley. He had already gone over them; because of the na-
ture of them, they examined them?
Mr. Allen. That is true.
Mr. Whitley. What further was done with them you don't know ?
Mr. Allen. I don't know whether they changed them, or altered
them, or what was done with them.
Mr. Whitley. You have no reason to believe they did though?
Mr. Allen. After things have gone into the hands of Jews, I
would not trust anything.
Mr. Thomas. For how long a period of time was this material
out of your hands?
Mr. Allen. I would say the best part of 6 weeks.
'.U'.i.il— 39— vol. 6 26
4102 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Thomas. During that time, you say part of the time it was in
the hands of Military Intelligence, Naval Intelligence, the police,
the F. B. I., and who else?
Mr. Allen. The sheriff's office.
Mr. Thomas. The sheriff's office?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. And it went from this other organization to what
office ?
Mr. Allen. It went direct from the police department to the head
of the Anti-Defamation League of San Francisco, first.
Mr. Thomas. Right at that point: You say you have a witness
to that effect?
Mr. Allen. I am just going on my own attorney's statement, who
was present. He said
Mr. Thomas. He said he was present?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is your attorney here?
Mr. Allen. No; in San Diego.
Mr. Thomas. And how long was it in the hands of this organiza-
tion— this Anti-Defamation League, according to what your attorney
said ?
Mr. Allen. Well, I think it was there several days.
Mr. Whitley. You think?
Mr. At^ex. T think, hut I have no knowledge of that. I am
going on Mr. Whelan's statement.
Mr. Thomas. And you have reason to believe that organization
made photostatic copies of all your material?
Mr. Allen. Well, I know this, that they have appeared all over
the country, and in the hands of Jews of all Christendom.
Mr. Thomas. How do you know they appeared all over the
country ?
Mr. Allen. I am making that general statement, but I have seen
copies that came from different organizations in Los Angeles.
Mr. Thomas. Have you any copies that you can show this com-
mittee ?
Mr. Allen. I have not.
Mr. Thomas. Could you secure copies?
Mr. Allen. I believe Mr. Elder, in Los Angeles, could secure
copies.
Mr. Thomas. Will you see that he turns copies over to us?
Mr. Allen. I will make the request.
Mr. Whitley. Are you sure the originals were turned over, or
were photostats turned over?
Mr. Allen. According to Mr. Whelan, the Jews were immediately
called in to the chief of police office
Mr. Whitley. After all, the majority of the material in your brief
ca?e related to them, did it not; had to do with them?
Mr. Allen. Well, that is my private correspondence, Mr. Chair-
man. They had no right to look at it.
Mr. Whitley. The occasion for your arrest was distributing 10,000
circulars on that day?
Mr. Alien. Some 10,000 circulars; but that was by private
Mr. Whitley. In violation of the law?
Mr. Allen. Not in violation of the Constitution.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4103
Mr. Whitley. We are talking about the law out there — the local
law.
Mr. Allen. In violation of the local statute.
Mr. Whitley. You are putting your own interpretation on the
local statute?
Mr. Allen. No; Chief Justice Hughes' interpretation.
Mr. Whitley. It was in violation of a local statute?
Mr. Allen. In violation of a local statute.
Mr. Whitley. And knowing that statute was existent, you ar-
ranged to distribute the statement in such a manner that you would
not be caught, by dropping it off of the roof of a building?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. You went down there and deliberately violated that
statute '.
Mr. Allen. We went down there, according to our constitutional
rights, to distribute those leaflets.
Mr. Whitley. No one has ever suggested that the local statutes out
in San Diego are in violation of the Constitution, have they?
Mr. Allen. I think many have.
Mr. Whitley. Has that point ever been raised or made an issue of?
Mr. Allen. I don't know as to that.
Mr. Whitley. That is your private opinion?
Mr. Allen. That is my private opinion.
Mr. Whitley. You have your own opinion as to what laws a mu-
nicipality can pass and, if they do not agree with your ideas, then
they are unconstitutional?
Mr. Allex. No; that is the opinion of Mr. Whelan.
Mr. Whitley. And your opinion?
Mr. Allen. And also 1113^ opinion.
Mr. Whitley. And if you wanted to circulate circulars or hand-
bills by the thousands, arousing or trying to arouse racial and re-
ligious hatreds, then, if you cannot do that, it is unconstitutional?
Mr. Allen. Yes. Mr. Chairman, only 2 weeks before the Com-
munists and Jews did the same thing, and there was no protest made.
Mr. Whitley. Do you have copies of those circulars that you say
they distributed ?
Mr. Allen. I have not them here, but they are available.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Now getting back to the material which was
taken from you at the time you were arrested, which you say was
illegally seized
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever brought that matter up, the manner
in which that was seized — have you ever brought proceedings in court
to have the evidence that was taken from you at the time of your
arrest suppressed?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Because it w^as illegally seized?
Mr. Allen. No ; I have not.
Mr. Whitley. You would just rather go around making the state-
ment it was illegal, instead of doing anything about it ?
Mr. Allen. Well, at that time I was engaged in other matters.
Mr. Whitley. You did not have the time ?
Mr. Allen. Did not have the opportunity to do it.
4104 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Now, gentlemen, I think the main question here
is the question of whether these photostatic copies are correct copies
of letters he wrote, or letters he had in his possession. That is the
issue. It is not an issue and we are not here to pass on whether the
San Diego police violated the law or what they did about it; the
point is you have no objection to the use of those letters in your
examination I
Mr. Allen. Not if they are my letters, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Whitley. Will you identify those and say whether they are
or are not copies of correspondence in your possession at the time
of your arrest ?
Mr. Allen (after examining papers). Well, Mr. Chairman, I
would say that those are mine, and I do not think they have been
altered.
Mr. Wh:tley. Do you recall whether this was in your possession?
It is not your letter, but it was taken from your brief case, sup-
posedly, at the time of your arrest — a letter from Mr. Deatherage
to Mr. Ingalls ? Apparently you had been furnished a copy of that.
Mr. Allen (after examining). Yes; I think I recall that.
Mr. Whitley. You recall that letter?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. I will certainly afford you an opportunity to iden-
tify any material I might refer to, if you want that opportunity.
Mr. Allen. Certainly.
Mr. Whitley. Now, I believe you have stated already, Mr. Allen,
that Mr. Ingalls, although you believe he operates independently,
somewhat as you do, has been active with those various groups and
37ou agree with his activities and program, and he agrees with yours ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whttley. I want to read, for the record here, a letter dated
January 19, 1938, addressed "Dear George," and it is signed
"C. F. I."— that would be Charles F. Ingalls?
Mr. Allen. I would say so.
Mr. Whitley. And you have identified this as being a copy of
material which was in your brief case?
Mr. Allen. Mr. Chairman, as I recall, that was a carbon-copy
tissue.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Alten. If I remember.
Mr. Whitley. That had been sent to you?
Mr. Allen. That had been sent to me by Mr. Deatherage, or
somebody.
Mr. Whitley. By either Mr. Deatherage or Mr. Ingalls?
Mr. Allen. I don't know from whom.
Mr. Whitley. Would you describe Mr. Ingalls — you say you do not
know the definition of "fascism" — would you describe him as being
sympathetically inclined to Fascist groups' or Fascist rulers?
Mr. Allen. Well, I don't know Mr. Ingalls well enough, and I
don't know — my knowledge of what composes Fascist
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he is sympathetic to Mr.
Hiiler's program, or Mr. Mussolini's program?
Mr. Allen. That I cannot say, any more than what may be con-
tained in that letter. I don't really know.
Mr. Whitley. Reading from the letter:
UN VMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4105
On t ho 6th of January, betweeu Beamish's two "chats," Laura, Captain
Beamish, and I visited the California House (the bund) to hear Dr. Degan read
an address to the Friends of New Germany.
Who is Laura ; do you know who she is?
Mr. Allen. I have no idea who Laura is.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
* * * Ii was held in a small hall, seating about 250. They had advertised
it and sold tiekets at door.
In other words. Mr. Ingalls and Captain Beamish and the party
referred to here as "Laura*' were attending this meeting at the bund
headquarters?
Mr. Allen. In San Francisco.
Mr. Whitley. In San Francisco?
Mr. Allen. I imagine.
Mr. Whitley. He goes on to make some statements about that meet-
ing. He does not mention who the particular speakers were. The
third paragraph says [reading] :
Understand you fellows have founded "The United Americans Incorporated."
Must I ask you what it's all about? A'so, where does the "Christian Constitu-
tional Party" fit into the present set-up?
Now. what is the organization, "The United Americans Incorpo-
rated"?
Mr. Allen. I know nothing whatever about that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Whitley. What about the National Constitutionalist Party;
what was that?
Mr. Allen. I think that is
Mr. Whitley. "The Christian Constitutionalist Party."
Mr. Allen. Yes; the Christian Constitutionalist Party. Well, I
think that was a political set-up that — now I am not too sure about
this, but I think Mrs. Fry had started or wanted to start something of
that sort, as a political organization.
Mr. Whitley. As a political organization?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. She usually had the word "Christian" some place
in her organizations ?
Mr. Allen. Yes ; quite a habit that way.
Mr. Whitley. Reading further :
As I glance over the organizational activities of patriotically inclined bodies,
that have sprung up about the country since the last war, and wonder where
each will fit in the opposing camps, at the time of the pending clash —
Do you know what he refers to there — "pending clash?"
Mr. Allen. Not any more than the possibility of a Communist
upheaval, which many of us have been expecting.
Mr. Whitley. He continues [reading] :
* * * I am disturbed about the confusion that will result from the neces-
sity whereby nearly every organization must dissolve to be remolded into the
army machine which we must build.
Do you know what he referred to there?
Mr. Allen. I have no idea.
Mr. Whitley. I believe you testified you were familiar with his
plans and activities and programs, and approved of them ?
Mr. Allen. Well, I am not at all familiar with what he refers
to there.
4106 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. You have not heard him discuss anything along
that line?
Mr. Allen. Never; no.
Mr. Whitley. This just represents his idea?
Mr. Allen. That just represents his idea; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Reading further :
* * * As I stilted, on one of the early sheets of this letter, so many
self-ambitious Pelleys will try to sell us their little "flocks," for important staff
concessions for themselves, when the storm breaks upon us, that it would seem
wise, were we secretly to spin our web of leadership now, in order to get the
drop on all these half-assed outfits. * * *
In other words, George —
This is a letter you identified as having been sent to you by either
Deatherage or Ingalls ?
Mr. Allen. I presume so.
Mr. Whitley. He is referring to George Deatherage?
Mr. Allen. I presume so.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
In other words, Georsr«. it is a complicated well, which the enemy will find
impossible to retrace and stamp out.
Who is the "enemy" there?
Mr. Alley. Jewish communism.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
* * * Not even we ourselves are able to trace the web of leaders, spun
between each other about the country. But we can systematize it into a
wo'king unit. * * *
In each area we shoidd study the composition of the population about us.
In your area —
That means Deatherage's area?
* * * the strength of population may be American and English ; in
mine. American, Italian, Jew and Irish, and German. In my area —
That means San Francisco, I presume.
* * * I must draw leader types from the Americans, Italians, Germans,
and Russians (who are native-born or naturalized). So far, the quotas I have
set are: 3 Germans (Nazi sympathy); 3 Russians (anti-Soviet sympathy); 3
Italians (Fascist sympathy) ; 4 Americans (republic sympathy) ; 13 total. All
native-born or naturalized and good American eitiz.ms.
In a subsequent paragraph, he makes reference to "Bryant." Who
is Bryant, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. I don't know who that could be.
Mr. Whitley. He says:
If we do all this now, then we shall have a natural military framework, all
ready steamed up and oiled and coupled to a multiplicity of working parts
ready to appear on all fronts, to enlist recruits for any emergency which might
arise.
Are you in sympathy with the program as he has outlined it there.
Mr. Allen ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. I believe you stated previously that you were in
sympathy with Mr. Ingalls.
Mr. Allen. Well, I am not in sympathy with a lot he stated there.
Mr. Whitley. Reading further from the letter —
It can draft for service, even, whole organizations and clubs, which will
realize they must be subservient to such a powerful system.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4107
Then, further-
As far as my own secret system is concerned, with which you are familiar
And so forth.
Do you know of any secret system? Do you know what that
secret system is?
Mr. Allen. 1 have no idea.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know?
Mr. Allen. He has not talked to me about it.
Mr. Wiiitlky. He goes on to say —
We may he able to salvage the host parts of it, to develop the field fans
or units. With the staff set-up organized, we could start the fans all over,
the country at one time and possibly reach millions of recruits secretly.
"Would that be your idea of a proper procedure?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; not under the American form of government,
I would say.
Mr. Whitley. Do you approve or sponsor such a procedure ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; I do not believe that it is in accord with our
American form of government.
Mr. Whitley. You are dealing with and cooperating with these
people all the time, and knew what their plans were?
Mr. Allen. That is one person speaking.
Mr. AVhitley. You were writing to Mr. Deatherage and were vis-
iting him. You exchanged correspondence, received literature, and
were cooperating and collaborating constantly with him?
Mr. Aix,en. I have never had any letter of that sort from Death-
erage.
Mr. Whitley. You never talked with him along this line?
Mr. Allen. I never did.
Mr. AVhitley. Then there is some discussion here with reference
to Mr. Beamish, as follows:
They couldn't find their delegate, so Beamish transferred to the Jap boat.
Fine mess, oh? Must plead with a dishwasher before you can go to and from
our country. The line must pay an employee hired extra for two trips to
take one passenger one way. Well. George, it's 5:30 a. m., so I'm hitting the
hay. So long until next time. Tell Bartons, Cap, Laura, and I said the fruit
cake was fine. Thanks in behalf of Cap.
Do you know who Bartons is?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; I have no idea.
Mr. AVhitley. Could you say who Laura is?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; I do not know who Laura is.
Mr. AAthiteey. Reading further :
Letter No. 1-B arrived day after Beamish returned to Los Angeles. He had
Jap and German groups before which to appear, therefore he reluctantly de-
parted, entrusting the wind-up of his affairs to me. All this included letters
of introduction to be requested for him from consulates and the care of his
baggage and passenger reservations.
Do you know what these Jap and German groups were?
Mr. Allen. I do not know.
Mr. AA7hitley. You did not correspond with Ingalls or arrange
speaking dates?
Mr. Allex. Simply in regard to speaking dates. That is all.
Mr. AAthitley. Did he afford you the courtesy of letting you know
which groups he proposed to appear before?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
4108 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. You do not know what Jap or German groups
Beamish spoke to?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. Whitley. Reading further:
December 14, took Beamish for "a walk." Introduced him about town, to
gang and inspected an Italian hall as a likely meeting place.
December 15, made consulates. Met leader types.
/ That is all you had to do with Beamish's visit?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You, in the first instance, requested him to take
care of it ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Reading further from the letter:
All was decided and acknowledged before Cap. left for L. A. But human-like,
the predatory B. S. 8rs in L A. promised much, did nothing, and held Beamish
over until I wrote and "bawled" every one out.
Do you know what that reference "B. S. 8rs" means?
Mr. Allen. I have no idea what it refers to.
Mr. Whitley. Black Shirts?
Mr. Allen. I do not know what it refers to. May I look at it for a
moment ?
Mr. Whitley. Yes, indeed. Mr. Chairman, it has been identified,
but will not be put in the record. It says "the predatory B. S. 8rs
in L. A." That refers to certain groups?
Mr. Allen. I do not respond to that.
Mr. Whtley. You do not admire that?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. There is a further reference to some meeting, as
follows :
I got out all but 150 of them. They went in quotas, or lots: 400 to Italian
Fascist group, 400 to Americans, 200 to Nazi group, and 50 to Russians.
He is making a reference there to tickets that were distributed for
Beamish's address?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. He says:
I got out all but 150 of them. They went in quotas, or lots: 400 to Italian
Fascist group, 400 to Americans, 200 to Nazi group, and 50 to Russians.
Do you know what groups those were?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; I was not acquainted in Sim Francisco at all.
The Chairman. You knew that those groups were in sympathy
with the general movement, did you not?
Mr. Allen. I would say that they do sympathize.
The Chairman. You have seen bund members present and Silver
Shirts members present. You have been in this thing, and you know
that thev were in sympathy with the general movement, do you not?
Mr. Allen. I would say that in these groups they worked har-
moniously with each other, more or less.
The Chairman. The Fascist and Nazi groups were in sympathy
with these other groups in the United States, with the same racial
views ?
Mr. Allen. We were all working for the removal of Jews from
the Government.
DN-AMBRICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4109
The Chairman, And they were naturally brought together — is
that true?
Mr. Allen. Possibly so: bul I would not waul to make the blanket
assertion, because some possibly did not agree to that.
The Chairman. What other reason could there be? What other
reason would there be for the Italian, British, and German "antis"
there working altogether? Did they not have the same sympathies,
were not the same sympathies inciting all of them there?
Mr. Allen. That may be true as far as the people are concerned.
Some groups possibly did not know what other groups were doing.
The Chairman. You do not say they have nothing in common.
Mr. Allen. The common objective of these groups, so far as my
impression or knowledge is concerned, is against Jewish communism
in the United States.
The Chairman. That is the objective, or the common objective, for
united action, or rather, for sympathy and cooperation between all
those groups?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; that is an objective.
The Chairman. That is the objective that brought them together?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; to rid the country of communism.
The Chairman. In view of the new alliance between Moscow and
Berlin, will you take Communists in your meetings, too?
Mr. Allen. I do not think that we know very much about that as
yet. It is quite foggy to me.
Mr. Mason, Are you in accord with the Ingalls group, or in the
common objective of getting rid of what you say is the Jewish Com-
munist movement by such a scheme as is outlined in that letter ? You
do not agree with the fantastic scheme that is outlined in that letter,
of an organized military movement?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Mason. Would you consider that a fantastic scheme?
Mr. Allen. I certainly would.
Mr. Mason. In the scheme outlined there, you would differ from
Ingalls?
Mr. Allen. Not only myself, but anyone with any degree of dig-
nity or with any degree of desire to carry out the objectives through
constitutional means would never subscribe to that.
Mr. Mason. Would you say that such a fantastic scheme could only
be proposed and urged by some neurotic?
Mr. Allen. Mr. Chairman, a movement of this sort naturally
draws zealots. We all know what zealots are, and this conspiracy
of Jewry to agonize humanity in this country brings those zaalots to
the surface. We cannot be held accountable for that.
Mr. Mason. You would say they are zealots?
Mr. Allen. I would certainly say so.
The Chairman. And those zealots are the ones that come to the
front in every crisis?
Mr. Allen. They may come to the front, but they do not have any-
thing to do with the direction of the movement.
The Chairman. They took over the direction of affairs in Ger-
many, did they not?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; I do not think so.
The Chairman. Do you not think that the group that finally got
control were largely zealots ?
4110 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. I do not believe for a moment that 60,000,000 Germans*,
or whatever the population is, would allow Hitler to remain in power
5 minutes if they did not want him to.
The Chairman. Do you think that is what they are doing in Russia,
with reference to Stalin ?
Air. Allen. I think that is possibly so.
The Chairman. Do you have an equal opportunity to know about
that?
Mr. Allen. I have no knowledge of Russia. I have never been
there.
The Chairman. You have no knowledge of Germany either. You
say that Hitler would not stay in power unless the majority desired it,
and you said that Russia was controlled by Jewish leaders.
Mr. Allen. I said that it was during the revolution.
The Chairman. You said it was at the present time.
Mr. Allen. If I did, I did not intend to say that,
The Chairman. That was before this announcement.
Mr. Allen. No, sir; I do not want to back water on that. I do not
believe that Russia has been under the control of the Jews for some
time.
The Chairman. That varies from your testimony the other day.
You were specifically asked if that was true at the present day, and
you said it was.
Mr. Allen. I hope that will be corrected, because it was not my
intention to say that.
Mr. Whitley. Reading further from the letter :
I told Mrs. M that my German and Italian friends would lead the fight with me
here, unless the Americans had decided to awaken, throw aside their narocist
masques and help lead in this fight.
Who is Mrs. M?
Mr. Allen. Is that the same letter ?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
"Sir. Allen. Written from San Francisco ?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. I cannot say who Mrs. M is.
Air. Whitley. He says here, "Unless the Americans had decided to
awaken my German and Italian friends would lead the fight." He
probably had in mind the arrangement previously described.
Mr. Allen. Possibly ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. There is one thing in connection with your men-
tality on understanding about this I want to ask about. You are
apparently sincere in your views about the fact that you believe Jewish
communism is a very serious threat, and you identify the Jews with
the communistic movement, and so forth. Then you say that this
movement brought together all of those elements, not only those
opposed to Jewish communism, but those in sympathy with Hitler
and the Hitler regime. You realize, of course, that the committee is
not so much interested in the antiracial aspect, because there are organ-
izations in this country that are against Catholics, organized against
Catholicism, and organized against other religions. There are "anti"
organizations all over the country; but the peculiar thing that is
running through all of these movements is that the leaders, or the
ones who have eone on record against Catholicism and who have gone
1\ -AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4111
on record as being against Jewish communism, are also in sympathy
with Hitler and Mussolini. I think every single witness we have ex-
amined, almost without exception, with the letters and correspondence
that will go into the record, have been in sympathy with Mussolini
and Hitler, or some sort of military dictatorship. Does not that lead
yon to believe that hatred is the main thing in all of them, and that
the movements lead to ultimate dictatorship in every country? Do
you not believe that in every instance these movements lead to dic-
tatorship \
Mr. Allen. No, sir: I do not believe thai. I believe that until
the Jewish program is studied by our political leaders, or by our
men who have taken that job — until they have studied the Jewish
program. I cannot see how in the world they can discuss this
affair.
The Chairman. We have it in our files. There is this organi-
zation, and there is the same thing with reference to the Catholics.
They say the Catholics will control the world. There is an organi-
zation in New York that says the British are about to control the
world. In the West, in Chicago, there are anti-Catholic organiza-
tions, and it is also true in the South. They have similar groups
to those.
Mr. Allen. No, sir; we cannot discuss communism without dis-
cussing the Jew. I am primarily interested in ridding the country
of communism.
The Chairman. Do you not find yourself in an awkward posi-
tion, having stated the other day, as most people in this movement
have stated, that the Jews started communism in Russia?
Mr. Allen. That is a matter of record.
The Chairman. That it was the Jews who control Russia. You
said that day before yesterday.
Mr. Allen. No, sir; the day before yesterday I said
The Chairman (interposing). You said that very clearly. Now,
having made that statement, and having issued thousands of pam-
phlets, spreading the word all over the country, with a number of
addresses to meetings on that point, you are suddenly confronted
with the fact that here is a country which you said was controlled
by Jews joining hands with the country you have heretofore been
upholding because they have been fighting the Jews. Does that
cause you to think that you have been a little wrong on that situa-
tion?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; I do not feel that wav at all, Mr. Chairman.
My belief is that Russia, so far as the Russians arp concerned, was
not in the hands of the Jews any more, or since Stalin started to
execute a large number of the Jewish Bolsheviks, which he did.
The Chairman. The day before yesterday, you were very clear
on that. You said that the Jews wrere in control in Russia, and I
take it that you were sincere in your views. I cannot reconcile
yonr position now with that of the other day. I asked vou specifi-
cally about that, and you said that the Jews, in my opinion, were
in control of Russia at the time of the revolution. I asked if that
was true todav. and you said most decidedly, that it was true today.
Yon made that clear. Now vou find yourself in this position, as
others do, confronted with this situation where they have joined
together in Europe, and yon undertake to tell us that the Jews no
longer control Russia.
4112 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. I cannot say as to that. I do not know whether, or not,
thev are. I am not living in Russia.
Mr. Thomas. Has it ever occurred to you that the leaders in these
various organizations throughout the United States are really just
professional haters?
Mr. Allen. I think that is possibly so in some cases. I have been
convinced that thev have been quite sincere in most cases.
Mr. Thomas. The reason I ask that is because the leaders in one
unit will hate one kind of religion, while the leaders in another unit
hate another kind of religion. The leaders in another unit will hate
some type of government, and the leaders of another unit will hate the
leaders in some foreign countries, but they all hate something. Iii
view of that, has it ever occurred to you that many of these organiza-
tions have leaders who are in it for financial gain, or for a livelihood for
themselves, and in order to keep themselves in positions in a particular
unit, and in order to get some kind of membership in the unit, they
must fan the flames of hatred for something? Have you ever given
any thought to that side of it?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir ; I have, but I want to say this : I am concerned
with the preservation of our Christian civilization and of our Christian
institutions.
Mr. Thomas. I can understand that.
Mr. Allen. Let me follow that up, if you please : I do not think there
is any hatred so intense as the hatred of the Jew for Christians and
Christian institutions. There is no hatred that can compare to that.
Mr. Thomas. Do you believe that some other religious groups hate
the Christian religion, and that that should cause people of the
Christian religion to hate people of other religions?
Mr. Allen. Personally, I have no hate for the Jew or for his religion.
I have no right to hate him for that.
Mr. Thomas. Going back to the financial phase of it again, we have
had many witnesses to come before the committee representing some
un;t. There are units in New York, units in the Southern States,
and some in the Southwest, and we find in almost every case that those
leaders, or a majority of the leaders, were in it just for their own
financial advantage. We have found that to be true practically
throughout the United States.
Mr. Allen. If any man is in this battle for financial gain or some
personal aggrandizement, he is a despicable character, I do not care
who he is. He is a despicable character if he is in it for that purpose.
Mr. Thomas. You will find that there are a lot of them in it for that
purpose.
Mr. Allen. Can you tell me who those people are? I am interested
in that.
Mr. Thomas. I can give their names. In fact, I am willing to say
that practically every single one of the leaders, including Fritz Kuhn,
Pelley, Deatherage, and so forth, almost everyone that has come before
the committee, is in this just for his own financial gain. They hold
their positions by preaching hatred for some other people, or some
other groups of people.
The Chairman. It is always against a minority. If they expressed
the same hatred against the majority, they would show some courage,
but in every instance the people or groups of people they attack are in
a minority.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4113
Mr. Allen. I do not think you need worry about minority groups,
so far as the Jews are concerned. They are a group that are well able
to take care of themselves.
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Thomas brought out the fact in these move-
ments, there are a number of units or groups, and each one of the
different groups makes the claim that they are supporting civilization,
our institutions in the United Slates, and so forth. Now, suppose
all of those movements should be successful at once, what would
happen (
Mr. Allen. I would not want to hazard a guess.
Mr. Voorhis. "Would you not have to fall back on the principles of
the American Constitution which guarantees to all the people of the
United States certain basic rights of citizenship? Would not that
be the only safe course for this country?
Mr, Allen. Yes, sir; that is exactly what we are fighting for.
Let me just a moment follow through on that thought. Let us go
back to the anti-Communist convention that we were talking about the
other day. One week before the convention was called to meet, the
Warner Bros., the Jewish Warner Bros, studio, went on the air over
KYWB three times, and incited the Communist groups, and the
Communistic Workers Alliance, to make a demonstration in front
of the Dutch house where that convention was to be held.
Mr. Voorhis. At that same time, various veterans groups in Cali-
fornia disavowed that convention, and pointed out that, in their
opinion, it was not primarly an anti-Communist convention. Fur-
thermore, I might say that it was pointed out there was police pro-
tection for their convention. Was there not police protection?
Mr. Allen. Let me follow through there, and tell you the story.
Mr. Voorhis. You will come to that, as to whether it was, or not,
an anti-Communist convention. That question was in the minds of
some people.
Mr. Allen. It was an anti-Communist convention in every sense of
the word.
The Chairman. Anti-JewTish or anti-Jewish Communism?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir ; because we identify the Jew with communism.
They broadcast from Warner Bros., for the Anti-Nazi League, or the
Jewish Anti-Nazi League in Hollywood, and every Jewish organiza-
tion was going around with pamphlets, with every kind of publicity,
inciting the people to every form of disorder that night. This is
what happened : Thirty minutes before the opening of the conven-
tion, groups began to form in the streets around that house. Cap-
tain Hines, of the "red" squad, was on duty there, and he started out
with 20 men in an attempt to keep order. The crowd increased so
rapidly that he had to call 20 more, so there were 40 men. By
8 o'clock there was a frenzied mob ; a frenzied mob of Jews of every
description. I have photographs of it, if you want to see them. It
shows their faces. It was a frenzied mob, all around the place.
Mr. Voorhis. If there is a movement in different localities against
certain groups of people, of course those people will be concerned
about it.
Mr. Allen. I am talking about free speech.
Mr. Vocrhis. I am in favor of free speech. I think that every-
body should have free speech, and here in the United States the
4114 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
right of free speech has been preserved a lot better than in any
other nation I know of.
Mr. Allen. I think yon are right.
Mr. Voorhis. Furthermore, I can cite to you cases where labor
organizations and other organizations like that have been attacked
fully as vigorously as this particular convention was attacked; so I
think that was merely a manifestation of free speech. The only
point I want to make is that once you loosen an organized propa-
ganda against a group, it becomes negative, and it must mean some-
thing more than a movement to accomplish changes, if not a complete
change, in our American form of government. Furthermore, when-
ever you let loose a movement like that, it is bound to have its
counterpart, and you are sure to destroy the institution that you
say you are in favor of.
Mr. Allen. I am not concerned about nazi-ism, fascism, and other
isms. I am concerned about Jewish communism, and this committee
has not seen fit to investigate Judaism, and this is Judaism.
The Chairman. Right there, you say we ought to investigate
Judaism and Zionism, and some people are beseeching us to investi-
gate every kind of religion, the Baptist and others. Are you a
Baptist?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
The Chairman. I expect there are some people who want us to
investigate all religions.
Mr. Allen. I am not talking about religions; I am talking about
political entities.
The Chairman. There are people who want us to go out and inves-
tigate all political entities.
The whole thing is this, that if we were in normal times, this
would have a very humorous aspect; but when we see these zealots,
as you call them, so many of them, around in times of stress, take
control of the whole country, it is a very different proposition.
What might have been dismissed as a joke a few years ago can no
longer be considered a joke, because it is the Deatherages and the
Pellyes and men of that kind abroad who rise to power. During
normal times they are jokes, but during these times it gets to be a
racket and is much more serious.
Mr. Allen. I do not believe, Mr. Chairman, that anyone could
possibly charge anything in the line of racketeering to George
Deatherage. I personally know that George Deatherage is not a
racketeer.
The Chairman. But you believe in him.
Mr. Allen. I believe he is not a racketeer.
The Chairman. You believe his ideas are pretty sound?
Mr. Allen. As far as I can see, they are in consonance with some
of my ideas ; they seem to harmonize.
The Chairman. You have been working with him?
Mr. Allen. I have been working with Mr. Deatherage.
The Chairman. Do you not know that we have a letter in the
record in which Mr. Deatherage expressed himself in favor of a
military dictatorship? He has gone on record in his own letter to
the effect that he is in favor of a military dictatorship jn the United
States.
UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4115
Mr. Allen. After all, have we not a dictatorship in the United
States, of a kind?
The Chairman. Are you in favor of establishing another kind of
dictatorship \
Mr. Allen. Well, that is a matter
Mr. Voorhis. As I recall, yon said yon were as much against
nazi-ism and fascism as you were against communism. Why did you
eall at the German and Italian Embassies, if that is the case?
Mr. Allen. I am an American citizen, and 1 think I have the
right to call on anybody I see fit to call upon.
Mr. Voorhis. I was not questioning that: I was merely pointing
out that fact, in comparison to your statement that you are as much
opposed to nazi-ism and fascism as to communism.
Mr. Allen. The only sympathy I have in what Mr. Hitler has
done is his putting the Jews out of the government, and I am
certainly in sympathy with that.
Mr. Voorhis. The other people you have been working with here.
as has been brought out by the counsel, are in sympathy with a whole
lot more than that, and have very large and far-reaching purposes
with regard to the United States.
Mr. Allen. That I am not in sympathy with.
The Chairman. As to you and the others in your groups, you
would not want to destroy the American form of government?
Mr. Allen. No; I want to maintain the American form of gov-
ernment.
The Chairman. How can you maintain it, when you are going in
the same general direction of these groups referred to and described
in this letter?
Mr. Allen. I am not in sympathy with that letter, nor anything
like it, but 1 am concerned about the maintenance of our American
form of government. 1 do not consider today that we are living
under the American form of government. We are living under a
government of international Jewry, and it is a minority government.
Mr. Voorhis. You mean the present Government of the United
States?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. What do you think should be done about it?
Mr. Allen. I think there should be something done about it.
Mr. Thomas. I think the witness ought to develop that statement
and explain what he means by it.
Mr. Allen. We have an administration that has its keymen Jews
in every capacity, practically.
Mr. Thomas. Explain what you mean by that; that is not clear to
me.
Mr. Allen. Well, you have a Jewish Secretary of the Treasury,
who pretty well controls the situation there, does he not ?
The Chairman. Is that all?
Mr. Allen. Oh, no; I think there are some 300 Jews in key posi-
tjie tions in this Government, I have a list of them.
The Chairman. Where did you get it — out of Pelley's book, What
Every Congressman Should Know?
Mr. Allen. That is the list I have here; I do not rely on that.
The Chairman. That is the only list you have with you?
4116 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. Here at present ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. What list have you besides Pelley's list?
Mr. Allen. I have taken some pains to cheek that list because
I do not go on what Mr. Pelley says.
Mr. Whitley. Pelley has made a good living out of stirring up
racial hatreds, has he not?
Mr. Allen. In the fall of 1936 Mr. Pelley was in Los Angeles.
Mr. Whitley. You belonged to his organization then?
Mr. Allen. No, sir ; I was not an active member in his organization
at that time. He contacted me and called at my home. At that time,
in the fall of 1936, we had to scrape together enough money to pay
his hotel bill.
Mr. Whitley. Would you say Mr. Pelley is 100 percent sincere, or
just racketeering on hatreds? You have a very serious question in
your mind about that, have you not?
Mr. Allen. No ; I have always been convinced that in anything he
said to me he was absolutely sincere.
Mr. Thomas. In view of that statement, do you not think, if he
was absolutely sincere, that he would have enough courage to come
before this committee?
Mr. Allen. Has he been called?
Mr. Thomas. We are trying to locate him now. I think he should
have courage to come before the committee just as you did.
Mr. Allen. You see me here.
Mr. Thomas. You should be praised for coming here.
Mr. Allen. I am not looking for praise, but I am here.
Mr. Thomas. Getting back to the point of Jews in government,
you have named one Cabinet officer, a Jew. I want to say, as a mem-
ber of an opposite party to that gentleman, I think he is doing a good
job.
Mr. Allen. Well
Mr. Thomas. Take the Army and the Navy. Can you say that the
Jews are holding high offices in the Army and the Navy? You
cannot say that?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Thomas. You can only name one, a Cabinet officer.
Mr. All::n. I can read off this list of names to you, and then we
will know who are in those positions.
Mr. Thomas. There are nine-hundred-and-some-odd thousand peo-
ple in the executive offices alone.
Mr. Allen. I am talking about key positions.
Mr. Thomas. As to those key people, I do not believe you can
name any, or many of them who are Jews. But even if they were
Jews, they have as much right to hold their positions, if they hold
them and perform their duties efficiently, as a Catholic, or a Protest-
ant, or anyone else. That is the American way, and that is why
these organizations that are trying to tear this system down are
un-American.
The Chairman. But there is not any chance of convincing you that
that is right, so far as this question is concerned; is there?
Mr. Allen. No; I do not really believe there is. We might sit here
for the rest of the year, probably, and discuss what they are doing,
but I can see that some of your gentlemen are not too well informed
on the Jewish program.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4117
Mr. Whitley. Our sources of information are not Mr. Pelley.
Mr. Ajuuen. I should hope not, as far as that is concerned.
Mr. Voorhis. What is your remedy; what is your program?
Mr. Allen. I have no program or remedy, any more than to say
to you here, Mr. Voorhis, that I will fight to the last to maintain
our American form of government, and 1 <h> not feel that today the
American form of government is being maintained.
Mr. Mason. But. Mr. Allen, the American form of government
provides equal opportunities and rights for minorities as well as ma-
jorities, and as to this list of 300 Jews in key positions, as you put it,
that is not out of proportion to their numbers, and they have either
been elected or appointed to them because of special qualifications.
If you should get rid of all Jews in the Government, as you have
put it, getting rid of all Jews, you are violating the principles of
our form of government, because you are denying to one minority
group any place in the Government.
Mr. Allen. I agree with you there; I think the Jews should be
represented in the Government in proportion to their population,
and that is about 4 percent.
Mr. Mason. You believe that 300 of them in key positions is more
than 4 percent?
Mr. Allen. I am not talking about the Federal Government par-
ticularly; I am talking about the government in general.
Mr. Mason. I think you will find that it is pretty well proportioned,
if it is carefully checked up.
Mr. Allen. I would not say so, not according to the information
you gentlemen have.
The Chairman. I am not particularly interested in anti-Semitism
or anti-Catholicism, or anti-anything else. We are investigating the
fact that all of these groups are on record in favor of fascism or
nazi-ism, and distributing either anti-Semitic or some other racial
or religious propaganda of one kind or another.
Mr. "Whitley. Do you receive material from the various Nazi
propaganda agencies, such as World Service, or the Fichte Bund?
Mr. Allen. I receive it sometimes, but not regularly, the World
Service, which is sent to me.
Mr. Whitley. You are in sympathy with it?
Mr. xVllen. No; I have my
Mr. Whitley. They just distribute it to sources that they think
would be sympathetic. You approve the program and various
policies announced in World Service?
Mr. Allen. In World Service — no.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever objected to receiving it?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, you have gone to bund head-
quarters in Los Angeles and bought it.
Mr. Allen. No; I do not buy World Service; they do not sell it.
Mr. Whitley. You buy communistic literature?
Mr. Allen. Yes; I buy communistic literature; I want to read
them all.
Mr. Whitley. Are you as sympathetic to that as to the World
Service literature?
Mr. Allen. I certainl}* am not.
94931— 39— vol. 6 27
4118 UN-AMERIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Vo rhis. As I recall, Mr. Allen testified that when he went
to the German Embassy he told them he was glad to have received
World Service.
Mr. Allen. Yes, I am ; without in any way
Mr. Whitley. In other words, to some extent you are sympathetic
to those proposals, so far as they fit in with your program and your
ideas, and with the propaganda that is being distributed by foreign
governments in this country — you approve of it?
Mr. >l*en. Any more than to say
Mr. Whitley. Do you not?
Mr. Allen. I mean that when I read in World Service and when
they conform to my ideas; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. I want to read one or more excerpts from this
letter, reading from the same- letter of Ingalls to Deatherage. It
says [reading] :
Now, for the most important thing. While we are busy with developing and
offering the voting public the only American-minded platform, we must get
busy organizing the grid, latticework, or skeleton, for a military staff throughout
the Nation.
Do you agree with that?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Setting up a military organization to take over our
Government.
Mr. Allen. As I said before, I am strongly for maintaining the
American form of government.
Mr. Whitley. You are working with these fellows.
Mr. Atlen. I do not work with the men
Mr. Whitley. You said in your previous testimony that you are
sympathetic with them.
Mr. Allen. Not sympathetic with some of the things.
Mr. Whitley. You are sympathetic with the part where he advo-
cates, a little later on, throwing all Jews into the Pacific ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; I am not sympathetic with any such thing as
that,
Mr. Thomas. Yon want to put them on the island of Madagascar;
that is what you said.
Mr. Allen. Mr. Chairman, somebody asked me where they should
be sent, and I said there is a large island off the coast of Africa, and
I believe in the segregation of the Jewish people, whether it is done
in this country or on the island of Madagascar: but that is beside the
question.
Mr. Whitley. Reading further from this letter, and still referring
to the plan to be set up for military groups, he says :
In this we need representatives from Fascist and Nazi groups and we need
Americans with whom these others may collabornte. Never mind the field
organization yet. Now, we need the staff organization systematized and solidi-
fied all over the Nation. We must be interested only in leaders (in this emer-
gency organization). We must place them beside us, below us, or above us, to
serve according to the intelligence of the individual. None must be self-ambi-
tious. All must be above reproach. All must believe in being ruthless in an
emergency. None must flinch from issuing orders to field officers to mow
down without hesitation, the great Communist front.
Do you approve of this organization that he is advocating?
are
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4119
Mr, An. in. 1 maintain it is the duty of every American citizen to
defend his country.
Mr. Whitley. The letter goes on to say:
a rank of big-breasl women carrying babies while behind them the Communist
contingent dare our men to Bre. They must fire to kill even these —
That means the women with babies —
if we would we save our own.
This is the man you are in sympathy with or his program you are
in sympathy with \
Mr. A i lex. I have already said I am not in sympathy with a lot
that is expressed in that letter. I am not in sympathy with that. As
far as my defense personally
Mr. Whitley. Then it is Mr. Ingalls' idea to set up a military or-
ganization and mow the enemy down, including women and children?
Mr. Allen. The enemy there are Jewish Communists.
Mr. Whitley. Continuing reading from the letter, it says:
There was a banquet at California Hall for the German Bund at which
Baron von Killinger presided, on January 15. Laura and I sat across the
table from the baron and his family.
Were you present at that dinner ?
Mr. Allen. Xo, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, I have to leave the room for a
few moments, if the committee will excuse me.
The Chaermax. I wonder if this is not a good time to complete
the Fraser Gardner matter, and if it would not be advisable to
introduce^ at this point these telegrams, so that they can be sub-
mitted with the statement of facts which you are going to certify.
For the record, on August 21, 1939, Mr. Gardner received from
the Pelley organization $35 by Postal Telegraph; on August 8, he
received $S0 from the same source in North Carolina.
On August 20, he received a sum of money described as a "bucket."
which is the code for $50.
On July 24, he received $-10 from Asheville, from Pap; on July
22, he received $21 by Postal wire from the same source. On
July 1. lie received $65 from the Pellev publishers, from Asheville,
X. C.
I think those telegrams ought to go into the record showing that
he receives regular sums of money from Pelley's organization in
Asheville.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Allen, do you know Mr. Collis O. Eedd?
Mr. Allex. Xo, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know his organization, the Constitutional
Crusaders of America ?
Mr. Allex. Never heard of it.
Mr. Matthews. You did not knowT that Mr. Redd had sent out
a list of candidates for offices of his organization which includes
you as a candidate for vice president?
Mr. Allex. Includes me?
Mr. Matthew's. Yes.
Mr. Allex. This is the first time I have ever heard of any such
thing.
4120 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. This communication has just come to the com-
mittee from Mr. Redd himself.
Mr. Allen. "Who is Mr. Redd?
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Collis O. Redd, who signs himself as the
national director of the Constitutional Crusaders of America.
Mr. Allen. May I ask where he is to be found?
Mr. Matthews. His address is given on the communication as 1320
Twelfth Street XW„ Washington, D. C.
Mr. Allen. Never heard of the gentleman.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Redd states that among the objectives of his
organization with which he has identified you, apparently without
your permission :
The bugle call is now sounded for political retaliation, either by ballot or
by direction action.
T fakp it vou vppudiate that?
Mr. Allen. You can put down my repudiation of that; I do not
know a thing in the world about it, about Mr. Redd or his organiza-
tion.
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Allen I wanted to ask you this question : Just how
did you think that the Associated Farmers were going to be interested
in your organization and your objectives? I do not understand why
they should be interested in it.
Mr. Allen. I do not know that they are.
Mr. Vcorhis. You contacted them?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. And you said, I believe, that they wrere almost the
only organization in California that you did start out to contact.
Why did you happen to select them?
Mr. Allen. Because we feel that the American farmers in Cali-
fornia and in Washington and in Oregon and in the other States,
where the organization did operate, that the Associated Farmers are
being formed and Ave considered they are really typical of American
life.
Mr. Voorhis. Did you think they were going to be anti-Jewish?
Mr. Allen. A great many of them whom I have talked to are
decidedly that way, because they understand the Jewish program.
Mr. Voorhis. Was that your primary reason for contacting them?
Mr. Allen. Not necessarily ; no, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. What other reasons did you have?
Mr. Allen. For the simple reason we figured it was an organiza-
tion with whom you could work.
Mr. Voorhis. Because you had common objectives?
Mr. Allen. Because Ave had objecti\-es somewhat common; yes,
sir.
Mr. Voorhis. What would those objectives be?
Mr. Atlen. Well, for instance, in the San Joaquin Valley Ave had
a situation there which concerned the Jewish packers, the Rosenbergs
and the Guggenheims and the California Packers' Association, where
many of the members of the Associated Farmers were being fleeced
by those Jews.
Mr. Voorhis. I do not knoAv Avho owns the packing houses, but I
do feel that the farmers have some just complaint.
Mr. Allen. I think you will agree with me on that.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4J21
Mr. Yookhis. My point is that surely you did not believe — or did
you — thai tin' farmers of California were going to be in sympathy
■with all of this program you have described?
Mr. Alien. No, sir; in fact many of them I know are not in sym-
pathy with me.
Mr. Voorhis. You did not think that possibly there might be some
connection with the position of labor, or something of that kind?
Mr. Allen. "Well, we had in mind labor conditions in the Imperial
Valley, which I know you must be familiar with.
Mr. Voorhis. I am familiar with a number of things about them.
I know they have a lot of people in California that could not make
a living, and they haA^e a hard time.
Mr. Allen. We both know that.
Mr. Voorhis. And that it has always been a terrific struggle for
those migratory people.
Now. then, Mr. Allen, you said day before yesterdav, I think,
that Mr. Hines, of Los Angeles, had spoken at Silver Shirt
meetings?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; I do not want to be misquoted about that. I
do not believe he did speak at Silver Shirt meetings; he spoke to a
meeting of the American White Guard.
Mr. Voorhis. Perhaps I misunderstood you; perhaps it was the
American White Guard.
Mr. Allen. He addressed one meeting of the American White
Guard in Patriotic Hall.
Mr. Voorhis. Was he in sympathy with the purposes of the
American White Guard I
Mr. Allen. He certainly was, or he would not have spoken.
Mr. VoorHis. I believe you mentioned awhile ago Mrs. Maxey?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Was Mrs. Maxey the secretary of Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Was that her correct name, or did she have any
other name?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. That name there is not her real name. Her
real name is Mrs. McCullough.
Mr. Voorhis. Was she ever connected with the Los Angeles police
department in any way?
Mr. Allen. I do not know as to that.
Mr. Voorhis. Do you know whether Mr. Chapman and Mrs. Fry
had any correspondence with anybody in Germany?
Mr. Allen. Well, not to my knowledge. Of course, Mrs. Fry re-
ceived a great deal of correspondence from many parts of the world ;
I know that. How much of it came from Germany — I never saw her
correspondence at all.
Mr. Voorhis. Did you agree with the attacks that were made in
the World Service on American Democracy; that has been spoken
of before. I wondered how you felt about those articles.
Mr. Allen. Mr. Chairman, for my part, I should substitute the
name, or substitute patriotism of the most virile kind, for American-
ism. Americanism after all, as it is today expressed, is merely a
distillate of the Jewish spirit.
Mr. Voorhis. Americanism is?
Mr. Allen. I believe it is today; another name for it is "democ-
racy."
4122 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Voorhis. You do not believe in democracy?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; not that type of democracy.
The Chairman. Not the kind we have got now?
Mr. Voorhis. Then I take it you would agree with the criticisms
that appear in World Service?
Mr. Allen. I do not know what you refer to.
Mr. Voorhis. Articles by Mr. Walter Newman and people of that
kind.
Mr. Allen. I do not think I have ever read them.
Mr. Voorhis. Were you ever acquainted with Mr. Johannes Klap-
proth ?
Mr. Allen. Yes; I have several letters from him.
Mr. Voorhis. What was his position?
Mr. Allen. The only things he said was that he was glad to send
me World Service, and asked how the work was going on, and was
glad to know it was going on well. He is now dead.
Mr. Voorhis. What work did he refer to ?
Mr. Allen. The work I was carrying on in regard to Jewish com-
munism ; that is the way he expressed it.
Mr. Voorhis. He was keeping in contact with you here in America
as to the work vou were doing?
Mr. Allen. He had no letters from me, and would not know what
I was doing, any more than some people would send him newspaper
dispatches or newspaper clippings that were made. In other words,
he knew something of the work I was carrying on.
Mr. Vocrhis. There was a sort of international aspect of it, was
there not?
Mr. Allen. I would not say so, no, sir; not in the strict sense of
the word. To be sure, he was German and I am American.
Mr. Voorhis. He thought you were carrying on part of the pro-
gram of World Service?
Mr. j^llen. He never considered that, because he would have no
just right to consider that.
Mr. Vocrhts. I have one or two more questions, Mr. Chairman,
and then I will be through.
Mr. Allen, you said that you objected to a moving picture that you
felt stirred up ill feeling against a friendly government. Would
you object to any moving picture that stirred up any ill feeling, al-
though it was during peacetimes, so far as this country was con-
cerned?
Mr. Allen. As affecting the relationship between this and a
friendlv government I think it would be very objectionable.
Mr. Voorhis. If you were starting out — I am not saying you are —
if you were starting out to try to build up a close-knit movement
which was seeking to eventually change the present American form
of government, I mean our Constitution, would you not concede that
the best motive force behind such a movement would be fear, or else
hatred, plus, perhaps, economic distress on the part of the people;
would you agree with that?
Mr. Allen. Mr. Voorhis. may I answer (hat in my own way, if I
may? In the first place, I am not particularly interested in organi-
zational work. I am definitely interested in trying to have our
American people understand what the Jewish program is, for the
destruction of Christian institutions.
.-
UN-AMERICAM PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4123
Mr. Voorhis. Your work, then, is educational, or propaganda, you
feel \
Mr. Allen, My work is educational, as far as I can make it so.
Mr. Voorhis. You have had contact with a lot of these other or-
ganizations?
Mr. Allen. Oh, j^es, I have.
Mr. Voorhis. How far do you believe that it would be possible to
get with such extreme movements, or movements critical of our pres-
ent American form of government, if the economic circumstances of
the people were better than they are now?
How much of a chance would there be?
Mr. Allen. Well, in the first place, I think the economic condi-
tion of the people at the present time is due to the operation of the
protocolic agency.
Mr. Vookhis. You think that is the reason for the economic cir-
cumstances of the people?
Mr. Allen. I think it has a great deal to do with it,
Mr. Voorhis. I think we need a different monetary system.
Mr. Allen. Well, I agree with you there, and, after all ■
Mr. Yoorhis. But there are a number of other matters, that we do
not need to discuss here.
Mr. Allen. The monetary system is a part of the protocolic plan.
Mr. Yoorhis. The point I want to make is this, that if you were
sincere in wanting to make certain that there would not be any ex-
treme movement which would gain control of the United States, it
seems to me that the most fruitful field of work would be in the field
of improving the economic circumstances of the people.
Mr. Allen. Mr. Yoorhis, I agree with you.
Mr. Yoorhis. Well, why should we not do that, then, instead of
going arcund trying to stir up hatred against different races?
Mr. Allen. I do not bslieve in stirring up hatred, Mr. Voorhis.
I am not a believer of that,
The Chairman. You are not even prejudiced on this question, are
you ?
Mr. Allen. I am not prejudiced against the Jew as a Jew.
The Chairman. I see.
Mr. Allen. Not as a Jew; but I am certainly prejudiced against
his program, against the program of the Jewish committee, the
Jewish labor committee, and the B'nai B'rith.
The Chairman. Who is on the Jewish committee? Give us the
names.
Mr. Allen. Mr. Cyrus Adler is the head of it.
The Chairman. Who else?
Mr. Allen. Oh, if you would like that, I would give it all to the
committee.
The Chairman. Did you get that from Pelley?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
The Chairman. From whom did you get it?
Mr. A llen. It is a matter of record.
The Chairman. Where?
Mr. Allen. All you have to do is to get the Jewish Yearbook. The
Jews tell you that. We do not have that. We get that from the
Jews.
4124 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Voorhis. I want to ask one more question. It is a fact, is it
not, Mr. Allen, that every single time a dictatorship has been set up
in any nation in the world, the groundwork for building up that
dictatorship and for getting the people to sacrifice their liberties
has been an appeal to their fear and their prejudice and their hatred?
Is not that true ?
Mr. Allen. "Well, I suppose so. That depends on the conditions
in the countries. I do not think the conditions are the same.
Mr. Voorhis. The particular kind of prejudice, fear, or hatred
that are stirred up, depend upon different conditions.
Mr. Allen. Of course, there must be some stirring up of the
people, if they are determined to have a dictatorship.
Mr. Whitley. And the best instruments are hate and fear, are
they not ?
Mr. Allen. Those seem to be
Mr. Whitley. Those seem to be the ones that are used.
Mr. xVllen. The ones that are used, anyway; I will say that;
yes, sir.
The Chairman. The committee will recess until 1 : 15.
(Whereupon, a recess was taken until 1:15 p. m.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(The recess having expired, the committee reconvened at 1 : 15
p. m., Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding.)
TESTIMONY OF HENRY D. ALLEN— Resumed
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, as a result of your close association
with Mrs. Fry and with Mr. Conrad Chapman over a period of
time; a very active association in which you were in contact with
them, did you ever have any reason to believe that perhaps they might
be engaged in some type of activity other than the activity you
knew they were participating in?
Mr. Allen. Yes; I believe I can quite truthfully say that I was
impressed several times with the idea that there was something
behind Mr. Chapman that I was not able to understand; and I was
particularly impressed with the idea that Mrs. Fry and possibly
Mr. Chapman were engaged in the sabotaging of the work that was
going on here after all.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever have any reason to believe from their
conversations and your association with them that they might be
engaged in espionage activity of any kind?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You did have reason to believe that ?
Mr. Allen. I did.
Mr. Whitley. Yrou suspected it from your own observations and
the conversations you heard?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. W7hitley. Will you state the basis for that belief or some
of the things that led you to that belief?
Mr. Allen. Well, I recall one afternoon Mrs. Fry was making
some remarks about her activities in Washington during the World
War. Now, the conversation was very brief on that subject, but
UN-AMERICAN l'UOl'ACAXDA ACTIVITIES 4125
I can only say that the tenor of her conversation was such that both
Mrs. Allen and myself were impressed that her activities here in
Washington at thai time savored of espionage work.
Mr. Whitley. Yon know also from her conversations that she
has numerous connections in various parts of the word?
Mr. Alien. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Has traveled a great deal?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And lived in foreign countries?
Mr. Allen. She has lived in Fiance, Germany, Russia, England.
Mr. Whitley. Has she ever gone into any great detail as to her
activities in those countries?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Did you think it was significant that she did not
discuss that more than she did?
Mr. Allen. With me she never discussed those matters at all.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether any of her other close as-
sociates, such as Mr. Deatherage or some of the others with whom
she was in contact ever had reason to believe from their association
with her — well, did they ever express to you any opinions as to
her activities ?
Mr. Allen. Well, Mr. Deatherage has remarked to me on a num-
ber of occasions, has even written to me — 1 think I have his letter
where he remarked that as far as Mrs. Fry was concerned, to put
it colloquially, his fingers were crossed.
Mr. Whitley. Did Captain Beamish indicate in your contacts
with him that possily he suspected or had reason to believe that
she might have engaged in some such activity?
Mr. Allen. Well, without coming out and saying so in so many
words, at the time he was trying to contact her, and trying to per-
suade her to see him, which she consistently refused to do, he re-
marked to me — he said, "Henry, the best thing in the world Mrs.
Fry can do is to see me, because that will set at rest in my mind just
exactly who she really is."
Mr. Whitley. In other words, there was something about her
that led you to believe that she had some connections with someone,
or was undertaking to perform some duties that were not known to
the group with which she was associated?
Mr. Allen. That was quite evident to all of us.
Mr. Whitley. That was evident to all of you ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That she was concealing some of her connections
and some of her activities?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; that was a common impression among all
of us.
Mr. Whitley. That was the common impression among all of
you ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you are talking about all of your other asso-
ciates ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Wthitley. Can you identify the signature of Mr. Conrad
Chapman ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
41 26 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. He is the man who you have previously testified was
associated with her in Europe, and who came to this country and
was associated with her for a while, for a short time, in California?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And then he suddenly disappeared, with no expla-
nations, and you later heard he had gone back to England?
Mr. Allen" That he had gone back to England ; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Can you identify this as Mr. Chapman's signa-
ture [handing paper to witness]?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That is his signature ?
Mr. Allen. That is Ms signature.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read into the record
a translation of this letter, the letter being written in French, and
the signature having been identified as Mr. Chapman's. The letter
is not dated. The address from which it is sent is Hotel des
Etrangers, Lausanne, Switzerland, and is addressed to Dr. jnr. Ubald
von Koll, Berne, Switzerland. The letter reads as follows :
2?01EL DES ETRANGFRS,
Avenue Affasiz, Lausanne.
Dr. juk. Ubald von Roll,
Zuringerstrasse 32, Bern.
Sir: Your yesterday letter has reached me today and I thank you for the
private informations (des confidences) you gave me. In order to gain time
I have forwarded your letter as well as the report of the Burner Tageblatt im-
mediately (by air mail), to Mrs. Fry to London; she will receive the envelope
Monday morning.
When writing to her I much insisted in her coming urgently to Berne
to get in touch with you on account of the work to be done. I do not doubt of
her good will, but I do not know whether the state of her health and her
means allow her to make the trip. However, I have good hope. Even if she
could not come at present, she would take up the matter in London and would
thus help you as best she cnn.
As soon as I get her answer, I will forward it to you, unless she has already
written to you direct.
If she comes to Berne, I will go there, too, and we shall arrange with you
about everything we can do in order to help the defense, from all point of
view. In that case the international committee (or certain members of the
committee) will hnve to be convoked to discuss the question of funds. I
will allow myself to submit to you a few plans on that subject. It might
perhaps be possible to receive assistance directly from the Ministry of Propa-
ganda in Ber'in through intermediation of the Under Secretary, whom we
know personally. In any case, you may count on our aid.
I w'll soon pay a visit to M litre de Kotzebue. whilst expecting the answer
from London. In great haste.
Yours faithfully,
C. Chapman.
(Do not mind writing in German.)
Have you ever heard Mr. Chapman or Mrs. Fry make any mention
of their activities in Switzerland?
Mr. Allen. No ; I never have.
Mr. Whitley. Have you heard them make any mention of the
party to whom this letter is addressed, Dr. Ubald von Roll?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That portion of the letter that refers to finances:
It might perhaps be possible to receive assistance directly from the Ministry
of Propaganda in Berlin through the intermediation of the Under Secretary,
whom we know personally.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4127
Did you ever hear them make any explanation of that or comments
concerning that?
Mr. Allex. No, sir. I have tried several times myself to develop
that very point with Mrs. Fry and Mr. Chapman, but I have never
been able to do so.
Mr. Whitley. You tried to develop whether they had any such
contacts^
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; I wanted to know.
Mr. Whitley. And if they had. they did not admit it to yon?
Mr. Allen. Never.
Mr. Whitley. Did they deny it?
Mr. Allen. It was always evaded.
Mr. Whltley. In other words, if they did have such a tie-up
as this letter indicates, they were keeping it a secret (
Mr. Allen. Positively, as far as I was concerned, they were.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether they received any direct
communications or material from any of the propaganda agencies in
Germany, or the Ministry of Propaganda?
Mr. Allex. I do not know as to that, because their mail, when-
ever I called at the house on Louise Street, was always in another
room, a separate room, and the door was always closed, and I never .
had any opportunity to see what had arrived or what was lying |
around in the way of mail or where it would come from.
Mr. Whitley. This refernce here: "we shall arrange with you
about everything we can do in order to help the defense," do you
know what defense that would be?
Mr. Allex. I have no conception.
Mr. Whitley. With reference to the "international commit-
tee * * * will have to be convoked to discuss the question of
funds,"' they never discussed that with you?
Mr. Allex. The subject matter of everything in that letter was
entirely foreign to me, Mr. Whitley.
Mr. Whitley. It is in keeping with certain suspicions you might
have had?
Mr. Allex. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. As a result of your conversations and your associa-
tions with her?
Mr. A llex. Most decidedly, I will say that.
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Allen, Mrs. Fry and Mr. Chapman never ap-
peared much publicly, did they?
Mr. Allex. Never. In fact, Mr. Chapman was a very retiring
sort of man and seemed to shy away from anything like public ap-
pearance. Mrs. Fry herself, when I purposely tried to persuade her
to appear in public as a speaker, to take advantage of the informa-
tion that I felt she had, would always say, "I am a terrible speaker
and I must decline ; I cannot speak.,"
Mr. Voorhis. She just worked through her newspaper?
Mr. Allex. Yes.
Mr. Voorhis. That was the Christian Free Press?
Mr. Allex. The Christian Free Press that she put out.
Mr. Voorhis. Did you ever come to feel that these people were
sort of pushing you out and getting you to go and run their errands
for them ?
Mr. Allex. I certainly did. and I was willing to do that because
I was one of those who wanted to know something about Mrs. Fry.
4128 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Voorhis. Did you not sort of resent that relationship?
Mr. Allen. Well, yes and no. I felt this, that if I objected to it,
if I in any way demurred to it, it would be an end to the friendship
and what I was trying to find out would be defeated.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, can you identify this letter from Mrs.
Pease [handing letter to the witness] ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you receive that or was it sent to you ?
Mr. Allen. This was mailed to me from Washington.
Mr. Wh.tley. From Washington?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. It was sent to you by a Mrs. F. A. Pease?
Mr. Allen. Mrs. F. A. Pease, signed the card there; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. She is the wife of Maj. Frank Pease, of Coral
Gables, Fla.?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. What is the name of his organization?
Mr. Allen. I think it is the American Defenders, or something
like that ; I am not sure, because I have not contacted it, I have
no contact with -it.
Mr. Wthitley. This letter has a return address. 814 Milan Avenue,
Coral Gables, Fla., and is dated November 19, TJ3S. The letter
reads — and this letter was addressed to you?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. "My dear:'1
Mr. Allen. Pardon me, let us have the record straight. The
card was not directed to me. That card was sent to me. It was on
a stifT card in an envelope and there was nothing in the envelope
except the card, and the address on the outside was printed in blue
pencil, if I recall, and not written; that is, my name was written.
Mr. Whitley. She apparent!}' had sent it to someone to forward
to you.
Mr. Allen. It became apparent to me from things that happened
afterward, that she sent it to somebody in Washington and asked
them to find my correct address and put it in an envelope and
mail it.
Mr. Whitley. That is also indicated in the letter. The letter
reads :
814 Milan Avenue,
Coral Gables. November 19, 1938.
My Dear : Will you be so kind as to put the correct address on the enclosed
for Mr. Allen who was framed out in Los Angeles.
I wonder if he knows what my husband and I discovered in Paris in 1932,
namely, that Mrs. Fry is a real G. P. IT. spy, working for them in effecting
the death of Lady Queensborongh. and we suspect Wm. Arthur Cbanler,
Conrad Chapman's cousin — of/vsomething!
Chanler was supporting Mrs. Fry# in the south of France and we told
him what we found out and know he didn't leave Chapman (her intimate)
the money C. C. expected.
We discovered Mrs. Fry's connections when we were publishing the Litvinov
document at Monseigneur Jonin's printing plant at Nevers. "Nathalie P.ongery,"
a peroxide Jewess whom Monseigneur warned tis against, gypped our print-
ing in French. Monseigneur told us she had gypped Boris Brasol in his first
1 uinting of the protocols. "Bongery" is Fry's handy man. Please tell Mr.
Allen lo beware of her.
Fours for the fight * * *.
M. F. A. Pease.
<T
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4129
Did you do anything aboul this letter or attempt to discuss it
with Mrs. Fry, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. No, Mr. Chairman. T received thai letter after I had
broken off all relationship with Mrs. Fry.
Mr. Whitley. With reference to any of these parties, or the inci-
dents referred to in her letter, have you ever heard Mrs. Fry discuss
them in any way \
Mr. Allen. Well, not to discuss them. She made mention once or
twice of Lady Queensborough, who we all know met death under
very suspicious circumstances in France.
Mr. Whitley. Was that while she was associated with Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. While Mrs. Fry was her close associate.
Mr. Whitley. Did you have any reason or occasion as a result of
your association with Mrs. Fry to believe that as alleged in here
she might be a G. P. U. spy?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You did have reason to believe that, from her ac-
tions, and her conversations; you had suspected that?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And these references in the letter about these vari-
ous persons in France that Mrs. Pease refers to — you do not know
them or anything about them?
Mr. Allen. Only by reputation. I know Boris Brasol, who lives
in New York City.
Mr. Whitley. Will you identify him for us, please?
Mr, Allen. I do not know him personally, just by reputation. I
know he has written a number of works or pamphlets on the Jewish
question. I believe he was responsible for bringing out some edi-
tions of the protocols a number of years back.
I would like to correct one name there. The name is Monseur
Jouin. The name is well known in France. He brought out the
original edition, I believe, of the protocols in French, some years
ago. He was quite a well-known character.
Mr. Whitley. Does he have any organization or connections in
this country?
Mr. Allen. He died about 3 years ago.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know any of the groups or individuals that
he was associated with in this country prior to his death?
Mr. Allen. No ; I do not.
Mr. Whitley. Was he active in the same type of work that you
have been interested in ?
Mr. Allen. I could not say as to that, because I do not know the
man. The first knowledge I have had of him was the mention made
in Mrs. Pease's card and then I began investigating who he was, and
I found out that he was a character in the southern part of France
who had done some work. I have his photograph somewhere. It
was given to me. I have it home.
Mr. Whitley. Have you had any great amount of contact with
Major Pease or Mrs. Pease?
Mr. Allen. No personal contact with him at all.
Mr. Whitley. Correspondence?
Mr. Allen. No. I have had one letter from Major Pease; that
is all.
Mr. Whitley. Any exchange of literature?
/
4130 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Alien. Yes. He sent me a number of things in regard to his
American defender movement, as to its purposes and objectives, which
were quite similar to ours.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, they were in accord with your ideas
and program?
Mr. Allen. More or less; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Who is Ralph Townsend ?
Mr. Allen. Ralph Townsend was formerly our consul in Shanghai,
I believe ; in Shanghai, I am quite sure.
Mr. Whitley. You have several letters here, an exchange of corre-
spondence between you and Mr. Townsend. Wliere is he living now?
Mr. Allen. Mr. Townsend lives in Oakland, Calif.
Mr. Whitley. Oakland, Calif. ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Is he affiliated with any of these organizations?
Mr. Allen. I do not think he is affiliated with any of them.
Mr. Whitley. Is he sympathetic to those organizations?
Mr. Ai len. Well, I do not know that he is. He has written some
very valuable works on the Jewish situation in Shanghai and in the
Orient.
Mr. Whitley. Have you ever heard him described or ref erred to
as a paid Japanese propagandist?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You have not?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. He is the author of this pamphlet, The High Cost of
Ha* e, is he not ?
Mr. Allen. I have never seen that pamphlet.
Mr. Whitley. You have never seen it?
Mr. Alien. No; I have never seen that pamphlet. There is one
he has written that I have seen; I do not just recall the name of it
now.
Mr. Whitley. I have a letter here that I cannot identify as yours.
It was found in your brief case, but it is not signed. Did he ever
send you any literature or did you ever send him any literature?
Mr. Allen. I think we exchanged some limited amount of litera-
ture. He sent me some of his booklets; I cannot think of the name
of it.
Mr. Whitley. Did he ever arrange any speaking engagements for
you or did he ever speak at any of the meetings that you helped to
2
Mr. Allen. Yes; he spoke at one meeting, one small meeting that
we had in Glendale, I believe.
Mr. Whitley. As an individual, he was at least in touch with
your activities, and the activities of similar individuals and groups
on the west coast.
Mr. Allen. He has never been considered particularly active.
Mr. Whitley. Just sympathetic?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Will you iden+ify these two communications, Mr.
Allen [handing documents to witness] ?
Mr. Allen. Thev seem to be all right.
Mr. Whitley. Reading from the one dated February 14, 1938,
on the letterhead of Industrial Control Reports, the James True
arrange
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4131
Associates, 209 Kellogg Building, Washington, addressed to Mr.
Henry Allen, 2816 Nina Street, Pasadena, Calif.
My Dear Henry: Thanks for writing me at Albuquerque and it turned up
today. Mighty sorry I did not get to stv you and have a chance for another
talk as there were several things I would like to discuss with you.
Was Mr. True in Albuquerque?
Mr. Allen. No. I mailed my Letter from Albuquerque to him,
evidently.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
Please shoot me the latest news on the Mexican situation and keep me advised.
Some clay soon something will happen down there that will break the press
censorship in this country, and I want to get all of the advance stuff in before
that time that I possibly can.
What does he refer to there — "shoot me the latest news on the
Mexican situation''?
Mr. Allen. What was the date of that letter?
Mr. Whitley. February 14, 1938.
Mr. Allen. I do not recall particularly what he was referring to,
except that I believe wdien I talked with him I discussed that there
were a number of refugees coming into the country and people were
beginning to protest about it, and there was considerable upset about it.
Mr. Whitley. In other w'ords, knowing that you had lived in
Mexico and had been closely identified with Mexico over a period of
years, he sort of turned to you as an authority on the subject?
Mr. Allen. That was all, yes, sir ; nothing specific.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
Glad you saw Winrod and arranged for the Jemison articles.
What articles were those ?
Mr. Allen. Those w7ere two articles by Mrs. Jemison which she told
me she would write at the time that I made my call upon her, as I
testified the other day, in regard to the condition of the American
Indian, his economic condition.
Mr. Whitley. And Mrs. Jemison, you stated the other day, is con-
nected with what organization ?
Mr. Allen. With the American Indian Federation.
Mr. Whitley. She has headquarters here in Washington?
Mr. Allen. I think she did at that time, in her own home. She
did not have any regular headquarters. She just maintained a little
side room.
Mr. Whitley. What is her full name ?
Mr. Allen. Alice Jemison.
Mr. Whitley. Alice Lee Jemison, is it not?
Mr. Allen. I think it is Alice Lee.
Mr. Whitley. Was she closeiy associated with or did she work with
Mr. True?
Mr. Ai.lfn. Did she?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. I do not think so; no. I remember once or twice she
made an appeal to him. The woman is really in a starving condition
and she made an appeal to Mr. True to try tiiroiigh his publication to
have somebodv contribute some funds to the support of herself.
4132 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitely. The letter reads :
Glad you saw Winrod and arranged for the Jemison articles. They will do a
great deal of good and Pocahontas needs the money very badly.
Pocahontas
Mr. Allen. I think that was a reference to herself.
Mr. "Whitley (reading) :
She has put up a great fight and I think when the gates are down her writings
will be very popular. She knows the truth and rattles a good typewriter.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. She printed various articles?
Mr. Allen. She was a very splendid writer.
Mr. Whitley. Concerning what?
Mr. Allen. Concerning the Indian question.
Mr. Whitley. Concerning the Indian question?
Mr. Allen. Indian affairs and John Collier, and so forth.
Mr. Whitley. And Mr. True was helping her in any way that he
could I
Mr. Allen. He was trying to help her out. I arranged for those
articles to appear in Winrod's publication.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
Sorry you did not make the Detroit connection, but do not think you would
have gotten anywhere.
Whom were you trying to contact in Detroit, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. In Detroit? I think I discussed very briefly with Mr.
True the possibilitv of an audience with Mr. Ford.
Mr. Whitley. With Mr. Ford?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you go to Detroit for that purpose?
Mr. Allen. I did not go to Detroit at all.
Mr. Whitley. He says:
Sorry you did not make the Detroit connection, but do not think you would
have gotten anywhere.
While you were here in Washington in connection with the picket-
ing of the Mayflower, did you talk to Mr. True and say that you
planned to go back by way of Detroit, was that it ?
Mr. Allen. Yes; that was it.
Mr. Whitley. And you did not go to Detroit and you did not seek
the audience with Mr. Ford?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
However, there seems to be a little awakening in that area. Certain men in
close touch, wrote the other day that he was coming to Washington soon and
would get in touch with me. I will let you know the outcome.
Did you ever hear anything further from him?
Mr. Allen. No. That was never followed up at all.
Mr. Whitley. Here is a letter, which you have already identified,
dated Tuesday, 4 : 20 p. m. There is no date on it. It reads :
Dear Henry : C just telephoned, said he had been trying to get connection
with Detroit all day and had just succeeded.
Who is C?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4133
Mr. Allen. C wus some friend of Mr. True. Let me think just a
moment. He was some friend of Mr. True who was to have arranged
my audience with Mr. Ford.
Mr. Whitley. Some friend of Mr. True's?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. He had been expecting to go to Detroit and
I was to have met him there and we would have gone to Mr. Ford.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know the name of (lie person that is
referred to?
Mr. Allen. I cannot recall that. I have it in my memorandum
somewhere. It is so long ago.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
Said the friend then' pleaded with liini to postpone call until after the 15th,
saying thai every minute of every day and night was spoken for until that time.
Who was the friend?
Mr. Allen. A friend of Mr. Will Cameron.
Mr. Whitley. Cameron?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And that is the friend Mr. C had contacted?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
C said to advise him of your schedule, if you could meet him there a day or
two after the 15th, and that, if he possibly can. he will arrange his trip
accordingly so as to introduce you properly.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, he was still trying to arrange for
you to have an audience with Mr. Ford?
Mr. Allen. Correct.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
Hope you have a splendid trip Old Timer, and that I will hear from you
occasionally. God bless you.
Yours,
Jim.
Mr. Allen. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. You have identified that as a letter from James
True ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. I will ask you if you will identify this letter, Mr.
Allen [handing a paper to the witness].
Mr. Allen. I would say so.
Mr. Whitley. This is a letter written on the letterhead of the
Industrial Control Reports, dated February 23, 1938:
My Dear Henry Allen : —
The first paragraph is just passing the time of day?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. We will skip that.
The second paragraph reads:
We miss you here — very much indeed. Many times since you left I've wanted
to see you to discuss thin.es that have come up. We're holding our breath
now, waiting patiently. A bunch of money, promised off and on for 3 years,
may come through within the next week or two. We've had so many disap-
pointments that I hardly dare hope; but there seems to be a fair chance of
results. If it comes through we'll have to have you back here in a hurry. You,
George, and I will get together and prepare for real action.
04031 — 30— vol. 6 2S
4134 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Now, the "bunch of money" that he refers to there — did he tell you
whether he received that or not?
Mr. Allen. I have heard that a number of times, but that was a
repetition of other times, and I don't know
Mr. Whitley. You don't know the source that he expected to get
it from?
Mr. Allen. No ; I have no knowledge of that.
The Chairman. He had discussed with you on different occasions,
however, the matter of getting money, had he not?
Mr. Allen. Not discussed it, but he had mentioned it in letters.
The Chairman. But in talking to }^ou at different times, didn't he
talk about money at all?
Mr. Allen. I only saw Mr. True on that one occasion.
The Chairman. He never told you where he expected to get that
money, did he?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Continuing that letter:
If your friends want some pea shooters, I have connections now for any
quantity, nnd -t n right price. They are U. S. standard surplus. Let me know
as soon as you can.
The Chairman. What was that?
Mr. Whitley. This is a letter from Mr. True.
The Chairman. But he said "pea shooters."
Mr. Whitley. Yes; I want to find out what that means. It
means guns, does it not?
Mr. Allen. I would assume so. It could not be anything else but
guns that I could see — rifles or something.
Mr. Whitley. He says :
If your friends want some pea shooters, I have connections now for any
quantity, and at a right price.
Mr. Thomas. Who sent that letter?
Mr. Whitley. James True sent this letter to Mr. Allen.
Had you previously discussed with Mr. True the question of pur-
chasing rifles?
Mr. Allen. No; nothing of that sort had ever been discussed be-
tween us at all. I never answered that letter.
Mr. Whitley. He says :
They are U. S. standard surplus.
What would you assume that that means?
Mr. Allen. The only thing that I would say would be this: I
say that we never discussed it. I think, on the occasion of our talk-
ing here in Washington, he made some mention of the desirability
of belonging to the N. R. A. — in other words the National Riflemen's
Association — and I think I have their membership blanks here. If I
recall it, the National Rifllemen's Association make an offer to supply
anybody who wants to send so much money for so many riflles, with
the rifles; and at that time I was not interested at all, anyway. I
think that is what he refers to.
The Chairman. That is what you were talking about — the Na-
tional Riflemen's Association?
Mr. Alien. Yes. I have their catalog here.
The Chatrman. Are you going to prove that by the catalog?
Mr. Allen. Sir?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4135
The Chairman. What has the catalog got to do with il ?
Mr. Allen. Oh, I just happened to have that. He sent (hat at the
same time with the letter.
Mr. Yooriiis. Who are (ho "friends" that he refers to?
Mr. Whitley. Who are your "friends"?
Mr. Allen. I do not know whom he refers to, because I have no
friends, and have not had any friends, that want pea shooters.
Mr. Whitley. Why do you think that Mr. True took it for granted
that your friends on the west coast wanted some rifles?
Mr. Allen. I don't know.
The Chairman. You had discussed with him about this uprising,
had you not '.
Mr. Allen. Yes; I had discussed that with him many times.
The Chairman. And this question of the rifles might have come
up in connection with that ? /
Mr. Allen. Well, nothing had ever been discussed in regard to that.
Mr. Whitley. Every military organization, however, has rifles
and ammunition?
Mr. Allen. Oh, yes ; surely.
Mr. Whitley. And would it be fair to assume that, in conjunction
with that, he would let you know where arms and ammunition might
be secured?
Mr. Allen. That might be so, but we had no conversation about
that at any time that I was here, except to give me these catalogs of
the N. R. A.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Allen, does it not say in those catalogs that
your organization would have to become a member of the National
Riflemen's Association?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir ; I believe it does.
Mr. Thomas. And that you have to meet certain requirements?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. And those rifles are for target practice?
Mr. Allen. Exactly.
Mr. Thomas. And not every organization can belong?
Mr. Allen. They have to be qualified. That is my understanding.
Mr. Thomas. Was it not your understanding also, when you read
that catalogue, that your organization could not qualify?
Mr. Allen. Well, I did not even think that far, because I did not
have any organization to qualify for that purpose.
Mr. Thomas. Would you really believe, though, that the man who
wrote this letter was referring to the National Riflemen's Association?
Mr. Allen. Well, only insofar as he himself mentioned the National
Riflemen's Association at the time we were talking in Washington.
The Chairman. How did it come up? Just tell us about it.
Mi-. Allen. Mr. Chairman, I don't know that I could recall that.
The Chairman. You say he mentioned the National Riflemen's As-
sociation when you were talking. You were talking about getting
some rifles, were you not ?
Mr. Allen. No ; we were not talking about getting anv rifles at all.
But, as I recall the conversation, he said, or mavbe I said, that in case
of an
The Chairman. Uprising?
Mr. Allen. Uprising, what were we going to do for firearms?
The Chairman. And he said, "Well, we can get them from the Na-
tional Riflemen's Association"?
4136 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. That was my understanding at that time.
The Chairman. And this letter was following that conversation?
Mr. Allen. It was following that line of conversation ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. With regard to the method whereby you were going
to distribute arms and get ready for this uprising?
Mr. Allen. That was my understanding.
Mr. Thomas. Was it not your understanding that you could not
get many rifles from the National Rifle Association ?
Mr. Allen. Any ?
Mr. Thomas. Many ; that you could not get many rifles from the Na-
tional Rifle Association?
Mr. Allen. I had not even given that a thought, because I had no
organization that would make use of any rifles, anyway. This informa-
tion was just volunteered to me by Mr. True.
Mr. Thomas. Do you believe, though, that Mr. True was referring
to the National Rifle' Association when he wrote that letter?
Mr. Allen. I do not know whether he was when he wrote that letter.
I presume that he was, because it followed up the little conversation
we had on the subject when I was in his office.
The Chairman. In other words, to get it straight, when you were in
his office, you all had a discussion about the uprising — the possibility
of an uprising ?
Mr. Allen. The possibility of an uprising.
The Chairman. In the United States?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. A Jewish- Communist uprising?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And the Jew^s were going to rise up and lick the
rest of the 110,000,000 people?
Mr. Allen. Of course, I do not know as to that.
The Chairman. Or something to that effect. That is what you
were afraid of, was it not?
Mr. Allen. We discussed an uprising, anyway.
The Chairman. It was an uprising of a minority to conquer the
majority?
Mr. Allen. I am not sure about the minority. I think the Com-
munists and the Jews form quite a number.
Mr. Voorhis. Such a number that the duly constituted law-en-
forcement agencies would not be able to take care of it?
The Chairman. Yes. Of course, you considered that part of it?
Mr. Allen. That is possible. I do not know about that.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Allen, how many rifles do you think you could
get from this National Riflemen's Association to stop a possible
uprising?
Mr. Allen. I had not given that a thought.
Mr. Thomas. You do know that you could not get more than a
handful of rifles from the National Riflemen's Association?
Mr. Allen. I had not even thought of that or discussed it.
Mr. Thomas. In view of the fact that you could get only a few^
rifles from the National Riflemen's Association. Mr. True must have
been referring to some other source?
Mr. Allen. I did not know, and do not know now, except from
what you tell me, that I could not get rifles from the National Rifle-
men's Association. My understanding was that every member of the
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4137
Riflemen's Association could get, if he was qualified, a number of
rifles.
Mr. Thomas. You can get enough for target practice, but you
cannot gel enough to supply that big army of yours.
Mr. Allen. Well, I nave no army, and never have had one, and
I do not ever expect to have one.
Mi-. Voorhis. He says, "any quantity," Mr. Whitley?
Mr. Whitley. Yes ; he says :
I have connections now for any quantity.
He sounds as if he might have just gotten connections for those
rifles —
for any quantity, and at a right price.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. It could not be the rifle association. They do not
charge for guns, do they?
Mr. Allen. Oh, yes; they charge for their guns according to their
catalog here.
The Chairman. They would have the same price for everyone,
would they not?
Mr. Allen. I could not say as to that.
The Chairman. Would not that lead you to believe that he had
made some connection to get rifles from some source other than the
rifle association?
Mr. Allen. Well, the letter was not at all interesting to me, and
I just didn't think about it any further.
The Chairman. But the matter was interesting enough for you to
talk to him about it?
Mr. Allen. Yes. In case of an uprising, I feel that a man has a
right to have a rifle above his mantlepiece to defend himself and
his family.
The Chairman. And you told him that you and your friends
were interested in getting some rifles?
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. What did he mean by "your friends"?
Mr. Whitley. ':If your friends want some pea shooters, I have
connections now for any quantity, and at a right price."
Mr. Allen. We had no conversation concerning anything like
that.
Mr. Thomas. Did you answer that letter, Mr. Allen?
i •
Mr. Allen. No; I never answered it.
Mr. Whitley. If Mr. True was referring to rifles from the Na-
tional Rifle Association, that was an open and aboveboard proposi-
tion. Anybody can secure them in that way.
Mr. Allen. That is what I was given to understand.
Mr. Whitley. There was no occasion for secrecy?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Now, right after that paragraph, which is type-
written, there is written in longhand the following notation:
but be very careful about controlling the information, and destroy this letter.
Now, would you gather from that that Mr. True was still talking
about the National Rifle Association? Anybody can join that
association ?
4138 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. That is what I understand.
Mr. Whitley. Why did he want you to be so careful about this
information ?
Mr. Allen. That is something that I believe you would have to
ask Mr. True.
Mr. Whitley. I want your interpretation. He wrote the letter
to you.
Mr. Allen. I understand; but I have no interpretation, because
the letter was not at all interesting to me; not at all.
Mr. Whitley. He evidently thought it would be.
Mr. Allen. Well, perhaps he did.
Mr. Whitley. Following your visit here, he took the trouble to
make some connections through which he could get any quantity
at the right price, and then he would advise you about them; so he-
evidently had some reason to believe that you were interested. I
do not think that he would write a person a letter of that kind if
he did not have reason to believe that he was interested.
Mr. Allen. I could not say. As I said before, I had no interest
in the letter.
Mr. Whitley. You still say that there was nothing in your con-
versation that prompted this letter?
Mr. Allen. I still say that there was nothing in the conversation
that prompted the letter.
Mr. Whitiey. You did not ask him if lie knew where he could
get these rifles?
Mr. Allen. I never asked him to give me any information about
getting any rifles at all. He did say this — that he would get some
catalogs of the N. R. A. and send them to me, and I asked him to do
so, and I have the catalogs here.
Mr. Voorhis. He certainly did not mean the National Recovery
Administration, did he?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; I do not think he did.
Mr. Ma«on. When you received this letter, Mr. Allen, and read it,
and tossed it aside and did not answer it, what opinion did you have
of the writer in suggesting such a thing as that ?
Mr. Allen. Well, I do not know as to that. I simply laid the let-
ter aside, Mr. Mason. As I said before. I had no interest in that sort
of letter.
Mr. Mason. But you did not form any opinion of the writer?
Mr. Allen. Well, it was not anything that I cared to
The Chairman (interposing). You had discussed that same sub-
ject matter with him in Washington?
Mr. Allen. No; not that same subject matter.
The Ch\irm\n. The question of getting rifles?
Mr. Allen. No; I discussed the possibility of firearms in case of
an uprising — where were the firearms to come from?
The Chairman. You did not intend to wait until the uprising to
get the firearms, did you?
Mr. Allen. No; hardly that.
The Chairman. It would not do any good to wait until the upris-
ing occurred ?
Mr. Allen. No; that would be a little too late.
The Chairman. So, you had in mind some steps in advance,
Mr. Allen. I had in mind the necessity of it.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4139
The Chairman. That was what was in your mind when von were
talking to Mr. True?
Mi'. Allen. The necessity of protecting ourselves.
The Chairman. The necessity to protect yourselves, and to get fire-
arms {
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And following that conversation, Mr. True writes
to you and tells you that he has got the firearms and he can get any
quantity \
Mr. Alien. As I said before, 1 was not interested in it, and I did
not want to answer it.
The Chairman. Why were you interested in talking with him about
it in Washington and were not interested in answering his letter?
Mr. Allen. Well, at that time. I did not see any occasion for an-
swering it.
The Chairman. How long was that after your visit to Washing-
ton?
Mr. Allen. Not a great while.
The Chairman. A week or two weeks?
Mr. Allen. I guess maybe a couple of weeks.
The Chairman. All right.When you were in Washington the mat-
ter was of such interest that you thought you would discuss it with
Mr. True?
Mr. Allen. Well, there was not any interest other than discussing
the case of an uprising.
The Chairman. But you say that 2 weeks later, when the letter
came, there was not sufficient interest to cause you to answer it ?
Mr. Allen. I did not consider that the condition of the country
was such that we need to talk about it any more.
The Chmrman. In other words, in a period of 2 weeks the situa-
tion had changed?
Mr. Allen. Xo ; it had not changed particularly. I did not think
there was enough occasion to take it up.
The Chairman. But you thought there was some possibility of
an uprising, did you?
Mr. A llen. I have always thought that.
The Chairman. And you think so now, do you?
Mr. Allen. I certainly do.
The Chairman. But you did not think there was any immediate
occasion for taking it up?
51,1). Mr. Allen. No immediate occasion.
Mr. Thomas. On that same visit to Washington you called at
the State Department, did you not?
Mr. Allen. I believe I did.
Mr. Thomas. Why did you call on the State Department?
Mr. Allen. I called on the State Department in relation to my
immigration, which had been canceled, into Mexico, and I wanted
that reinstated.
Mr. Thomas. That was the only reason you called on the State
Department ?
Mr. Allen. That was the only reason that I recall. That was my
reason for calling on the State Department.
Mr. Thomas. Whom did you see at the State Department?
Mr. Allen. You asked the question the other day, Mr. Thomas.
I cannot recall the man's name, It was one of the under secre-
4140 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
taries. If I may interpolate this just now, so as to follow through,
you understand that when that Mongol Jew, John L. Spivik, went
to the foreign relations department in Mexico and had my immigra-
tion canceled
Mr. Thomas (interposing). What was his name, again?
Mr. Allen. John L. Spivak.
Mr. Thomas. S-p-i-v-a-k?
Mr. Allen. Spivak — an Asiatic Mongol — went there and had my
immigration canceled because of my activities in the Pacific-coast
region, I went to the State Department to try to find out what I
could do about having my immigration reinstated.
Mr. Thomas. And did you find out?
Mr. Allen. I found out that nothing could be done so far as the
State Department was concerned. The State D?partment would
not do anything. They referred me to the Embassy in Mexico
City, and I took it up with Mr. Stewart, who was the consul gen-
eral, I believe, in Mexico City, and he could not do anything.
Mr. Thomas. How do you know that Spivak had anything to
do with it ?
Mr. Allen. Why, he said so.
Mr. Thomas. He did say so?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. I have it right here, in his own writing.
Mr. Thomas. In a letter to someone?
Mr. Allen. No; in the Communist Sundav Worker — his article.
Mr. Thomas. I may be wrong about this, Mr. Allen, but I think
that the question was asked you the other day why you went to
the State Department.
Mr. Allen. And I stated on account of my immigration.
Mr. Thomas. I thought you said that you could not recall why
you went there.
Mr. Allen. Oh, no. I stated that I went there to
The Chairman. Yes; he said that.
Mr. Thomas. Well, I may be wrong about that.
The Chairman. At the time you talked to Mr. True, that was
the time you went to the State Department ; I menu on the same
visit?
Mr. Allen. Yes; while I was in Washington.
The Chairman. So you had in mind going to Mexico?
Mr. Allen. Well, I have properties in Mexico.
The Chairman. But you did have in mind going to Mexico?
Mr. Allen. Certainly. I was being kept out of Mexico, where I
had properties.
The Chairman. These guns and "vour friends" did not have any-
thing to do with your property in Mexico?
Mr. Allen. Certainly not.
The Chairman. Whom did they have to do with?
Mr. Allen. I don't know. I did not write the letters. I don't
kuo\v what he meant by "my friends."' I did not write fhe letter.
The Chairman. Did you and Mr. True have occasion to discuss
your friends?
Mr. Allen. Well, he knows a number of my friends. I do not
know what he meant bv the reference to my friends wanting the
guns, because there would be no reason for that.
Mr. Voorhis. What was the date of this letter?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4141
Mr. W ii n u v. February 23, L938.
The Chairman. Does Mr. True know Mr. Herman Schwinn?
Mr. Allen. No; I do nol think ho does.
Mr. Whitley. This first discussion (hat you had with Mr. True
in Washington, which prompted this letter 2 weeks later from him —
thai was the same trip during which you visited the German Em-
bassy and the Italian Embassy?
Mr. Allen. That was all when I was here in Washington.
Mr. Vooehis. That was at the time that you were traveling with
Mrs. Fry and Mr. Chapman?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mi'. Voorhis. They would not he the •"friends"' that Mr. True re-
ferred to?
Mr. Allen. I do not see why they should be.
The Chairman. The people that he referred to were people that
were interested in this movement?
Mi-. Allen. That might be the natural assumption; but, as I
said before, I have no idea whom he referred to, in any way.
Mr. Whitley. In the last paragraph of this same letter, Mr.
Allen. Mr. True says:
Anything you bear about the Mexican situation I shall be glad to have. I'm
hoping for tbe best.
In the previous letter that I just read to you from Mr. True, he
made mention of the Mexican situation. Pie makes further refer-
ence to it here, asking for information. What does it mean there
when he says :
I'm hoping for tbe best.
Mr. Allen. I have no idea, unless he is hoping for the best as
far as receiving some money there, or something like that, wdiich he
mentioned in soma previous letter; didn't he?
Mr. Whitley. Had you discussed with him your connections in
Mexico, insofar as any groups or organizations were concerned?
Mr. Allen. Xo. not particularly.
Mr. Tikmas. Was he not also hoping that you would be able to
straighten things out with the State Department, so that you could
go to Mexico?
Mr. Allen. No. He knew already that I had properties in Mexico,
but nothing was discussed about that with Mr. True; no, sir.
Mr. Whitley. There are copies of correspondence here addressed
"Dear Auntie." To wdiom do they refer?
Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry.
Mr. Whitley. Did you and others, in communicating or corre-
sponding with her. address her as "Auntie?"
Mr. Allen. That was the common appellation.
Mr. Whitley. There is quite a considerable amount of corre-
spondence here, Mr. Chairman, between Mr. Allen and Mr. Edmoncl-
son — Mr. Robert Edward Edmondson. I do not think there is any
occasion to read it. It covers the relation- of Mr. Allen with Mr.
Edmondson. Likewise there are copies of correspondence between
Key. Gerald D. Winrod and Mr. Allen, and correspondence between
Mr. Allen and Mr. James True, whom he has already identified.
Now, here is some correspondence. Mr. Allen, which you had with
V. N. K-o-s-i-t-i-n.
4142 ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. No : that name is Kositsin — K-o-s-i-t-s-i-n.
Mr. Whitley. Kositsin?
Mr. Allen. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. Will you identify him for us, please?
Mr. Allen. Only to say that Kositsin was a man who had been
working for Mr. Deatherage as a filing clerk, I would say, in St.
Albans.
Mr. Whitley. Assisting Mr. Deatherage?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. He originally was from the west coast, was he not?
Mr. Allen. I think that he was at one time in Berkeley, but some
arrangement was made by Mrs. Fry to have him leave Berkeley
and go to St. Albans and assist Mr. Deatherage.
Mr. Whitle^. And help Mr.- Deatherage \
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kositsin had been associated with, or worked
with, Mrs. Fry while he was on the coast?
Mr. Allen. I do not think so. I do not think she had ever
Mr. Whitley (interposing). She was acquainted with him and his
interests ?
Mr. Allen. I really do not know. I could not say how Mrs. Fry
came to know Mr. Kositsin, or what the origin of his acquaintance-
ship there was. But the first occasion I had to take notice of it was
receiving mail signed with his name.
Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether Mr. Kositsin is a citizen?
Mr. Allen. I could not say. I think he is. but I could not say.
Mr. Thomas. Was he born in this country?
Mr. Allen. Oh, no. He is a Russian.
Mr. Whitley. Is he still, as far as you know, working for Mr.
Deatherage ?
Mr. Allen. Oh, no. He left there.
Mr. Whitley. But he did go there and help Mr. Deatherage, in
accordance with an arrangement made by Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. How long was he there, approximately, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. I think he went there in the winter of 1937, and re-
mained there for something like possibly a year.
Mr. Whitley. Here is correspondence between you and Mr. Wil-
liam Kullgren, of Atascadero, editor of the Beacon Light.
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mi*. Whitley. You have already identified Mr. Kullgren for us,
of course, and described your association with him.
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Just a minute. I want to ask something more about
Mr. Kositsin. Do you know anything about his relationship with
Mr. Klapproth, of the World Service?
Mr. Allen. Only to say that I know there was a friendship there,
but to my recollection they were both together in Berkeley, and then
Klapproth left for Germany, and Kositsin remained here for awhile
until he undertook this work.
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Klapproth thought pretty well of him, did he
not?
Mr. Allen. I believe so.
I .VA.MKUICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4143
Mr. Vookhis. I have ;i copy of a letter from Mr. Klapproth in
which lie says this:
Do people not realize thai men of this calibre can't he weighed in gold and
are of tremendous value in the moment of a coup?
1 will submit this for the record.
Mr. Whitley. Would you like to have the whole letter introduced
in the record?
Mr. Yooiuiis. I think so.
(The letter referred to is sis follows:)
Translation of Letter by Johannes Klapproth to Ernest Goerner, dated March
11, L!
Very honored Mr. Goerxer: We regret that we were not able to thank you
sooner for the number of publications you have sent us. We have read your
article in Liberation (magazine of the Silver Shirts) with great interest and
wish to congratulate you especially on this.
Slowly they are beginning to awaken in the United States of America and
I take cognizance with great joy of the fact that the situation has improved
greatly since my departure from California in April of last year.
The crazy disunity of the various nationalist parties and groups is regretable.
This hinders a united and strong advance which is of utmost importance under
present circumstances.
From my friend Kositzin, with whom I printed your pamphlets last year, I
received sad news. It is terrible that such important and leading men are
permitted to get so sick. Do people not realiza that men of this calber can't
be weighed in gold and are of tremendous value in the moment of a coup?
One should try, under all circumstances, to keep such men in best of health.
One must realize it again and again that in this light the individual is
nothing and only united, close cooperation can bring results.
We do not want to play into the hands of Judah, by making our own lives
like hell and weaken each other wherever we can. This would be not only
short-sighted but also against our principles.
Therefore, may I beg you from here, to do your duty towards Kositzin and
take ,care of your obligations. It is not permissible that one of our own
should hunger and go to pieces.
We need everybody and particularly such tried and proven persons as Ko-
sitzin. Welfare of the whole goes before the welfare of the individual. This
shoidd not be only on paper but should be practiced.
In the hope that you will comply with my request as far as possible and
with the best wishes for further good success and German greetings,
(Signed) Johannes Klapproth,
American Section World Service.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, we have correspondence here with Mr.
Louis T. McFadden, of Canton. Pa.— letters that you have written
to him. Will you identify him for us?
Mr. Allen. "That was Senator McFadden. I guess you all know
him.
Mr. Voorhis. Congressman McFadden.
Mr. Allen. Pardon me. Congressman; yes.
Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of that communication ?
Mr. Allen. I do not reallv recall.
Mr. Whitley. Did he reply to it ?
Mr. Allen. He died shortly after. That was simply while he was
still ill.
Mr. Whitley. Dr. Huarh Parkinson, 450 Sutter Street, San Fran-
cisco, Calif. Will von identify him for us?
Mr. Allen. Well, I have only met Dr. Parkinson about twice, and
then very briefly in his office.* He is a practicing dentist in San
Francisco.
4144 UN-AMEIUCAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Is he active in
Mr. Allen, (interposing). Yes; not active, but sympathetic.
Mr. Whitley. Sympatehtic to your work and the work of the
various groups along the coast?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Does lie support them by attending meetings or
making speeches?
Mr. Allen. Oh, no.
Mr. Whitley. But he is sympathetic with you ?
Mr. Allen. Yes ; he is sympathetic with us.
Mr. Whitley. The Reverend Martin Luther Thomas. There is
consierable correspondence here exchanged between you and Dr.
Thomas. You have already identified him ?
Mr. Allen. I have explained who Dr. Thomas was.
Mr. Whitley. Gustave Schroeder. Who is he?
Mr. Allen. He at that time lived in Eagle Pass, I believe.
Mr. Whitley. In Eagle Pass, Tex.?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. I do not know the man personally, but I was
requested by someone — I don't remember now who — to send him litera-
ture whenever we had any to spare, and sent it to him.
Mr. Whitley. In other words you sent him a letter and he was
writing to you.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. What was the date of that ?
Mr. Whitley. This card was dated April 16, 1938, a post card
from Mr. Schroeder to Mr. Allen.
Mr. Thomas. Is he still living out there?
Mr. Allen. I could not say as to that ; I haven't seen him for a long
time.
he-
Mr. Whitley. You didn't know him but someone suggested that
Mr. Allen (interposing). I did not know him, personally.
Mr. Whitley (continuing). That he would like to receive a letter?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Some correspondence here, Mr. Allen, with Mr.
R. U. Caspers, of Pasadena, Calif.
Mr. Allen. Mr. Caspers is, or was at that time, the head of the
Republican assembly in Pasadena.
Mr. Whitley. Was he connected with or active in your activities out
there ?
Mr. Allen. No; he arranged at that time for the address that I
made.
Mr. Whitley. A letter in the file here, Mr. Allen, addressed "Dear
Hymie." Do you know who that is (
Mr. Allen. Yes; that is Mr. Kenneth Alexander.
Mr. Whitley. Kenneth Alexander?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Leader of the Silver Shirts?
Mr. Allen. In southern California.
Mr. Whitley. Southern California?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. It is signed "Alex." Is that correct?
Mr. Allen. Pardon me, Alex is Alexander; Hymie is me.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, hfl addressed the letter to you?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4145
Mr. Allen. Yes; he addressed it to me, and signed it Alex.
Mr. Whitley. This letler is dated "Friday afternoon." Were you
rather closely in touch with Mr. Alexander?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitlet. And oven after he ceased to be active in the Silver
Shirts?
Mr. Allen. I have always maintained my friendship with Mr.
Alexander.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Alexander and his group participated in various
meetings and the demonstrations that were held in that section by groups
in which you were interested ?
Mr. Allen. Some of them did, but not regularly, and there was noth-
ing arranged particularly.
Mr. Whitley. Correspondence here ; a letter addressed by you to Mr.
Louis Pekarsky. Can you identify him for us?
Mr. Allen. I will have to do some thinking as to who Mr. Pekarsky
is.
Mr. Whitley. Addressed as managing editor of the B'nai BVith.
Mr. Allen. That is the name of the managing editor of the B'nai
B'rith; that is the local official organ.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. Now, Mr. Allen, tell us about your connection
with the Gold Shirt organization of Texas — no; I mean of Mexico.
That is a group that is known or referred to as the Mexican Fascist
organization ?
Mr. Allen. Well, in the first place, Mr. Chairman, let me correct
your impression of my having any connection witn the Mexican Gold
Shirts. I have none.
Mr. Whitley. You mean as far as being officially connected with
the organization you are not connected with it?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with and have you associated
with some of the leaders in that organization over a period of years?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. You have not ?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know any of the leaders ?
Mr. Allen. Yes ; I know some of them, of the men ; I do not think
they rate as leaders.
Mr. Whitley. They do not rate as leaders?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. AVhitley. But you know some of the individual members of the
Mexican Gold Shirt organization ?
Mr. Allen. Well, now as to that, let me qualify that if I may and
say that the only man that I know of at that time being in a capacity
of what might approach leadership at all in the organization was Pablo
del Gado.
Mr. Whitley. Will you describe your relationship with him?
Mr. Allen. As far as Pablo del Gado is concerned I met him at a time
when I was trying to contact General Roderguiez. General Roderguiez
who at that time was the head of the Gold Shirts, of the Mexican Gold
Shirts.
Mr. Whitley. At what time was that approach made ?
Mr. Allen. I think that was — let me see — that was the time I was
trying to contact Roderguiez, you mean 2
4146 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Yes; at the time you were trying to get in touch with
him.
Mr. Allen. I think that was in the spring of 1937; I think it was
in 1 937 ; I think it was.
Mr. Whitley. And you attempted to get in touch with him
through
Mr. Allen (interposing). Through Pablo del Gado.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. If I may explain my experience while we are on that
subiect
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. I was in El Paso, Tex., and I wanted to get in touch
with Roderguiez and I did not know what his address was, and while
there it occurred to me that he might be found through some member,
so I went to one of the daily papers and they told me that as far as
they knew Roderguiez was not in El Paso but that I might get in con-
tact with him through del Gado and they gave me his address and I
went to his home in El Paso. Del Gado explained to me that Roder-
guiez was no longer the head of the Gold Shirts, but that he was
looking after a little work for him and taking care of his mail.
Mr. Whitley He was taking care of his letters?
Mr. Allen. For Roderguiez.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. In other words, he was Roderguiez's secretary.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Now. you have had no contact with the Gold Shirts
or its membership or its officials down there while you were for man}'
years living in Mexico?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. No contact at all ?
Mr. Allen. No contact.
Mr. Whitley. What is the nature of the Gold Shirt organization?
Mr. Allen. My understanding of its objectives is much the same
as my own.
Mr. Whitley. Much the same as your own ?
Mr. Allen. Yes; it is opposed to Jewish communism in Mexico;
that it opposed the influx of Jews from Loyalist Spain.
Mr. Whitley. Do you consider the Gold Shirts to be a Fascist
group?
Mr. Allen. I would not say so; no.
Mr. Whitley. You would not say so ?
Mr. Allen. I do not think so.
Mr. Whitley. You have heard them referred to as such?
Mr. Allen. I have heard them referred to as such ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Do you consider they have the same fundamentals,
the same objectives, that the various groups in this country you have
referred to?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You do?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And Del Gado and Roderguiez — did you have suc-
cess in making any contact with Roderguiez?
Mr. Allen. No.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4147
Mr. Whitley. But you tried to contact him?
Mr. Allen. I wanted to see him.
Mr. Whitley. For what purpose <li<l you want to sec him; any
particular purpose '.
Mr. ALLEN. I wanted to satisfy myself as to just what their objec-
tives were and how they were operating.
Mi-. Whitley. After your talk with Del Gado were you satisfied
in that respect 1
Mr. Allen. I was quite well satisfied that their objectives were very
similar; that they were carrying on the same fight down there that
we were.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ever consider the possibility of working
out some kind of an agreement or arrangement with them for
cooperation \
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Nothing like that was contemplated?
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. Do 3-011 know whether or not the Gold Shirts ever
met with the bund?
Mr. Allen. Never to my knowledge.
The Chairman. Do you know of any instance where they had joint
meetings?
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. Were Gold Shirts ever present in bund meetings?
Mr. Allen. I do not think there was ever a Gold Shirt at any bund
meeting.
The Chairman. Do you know of any occasion in which there was
meeting of the groups together?
Mr. Allen. The Gold Shirts?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Allen. No; I don't.
The Chairman. They never came together?
Mr. Allen. The only time — except when Dal Gado himself was in
Los Angeles he attended Martin Luther Thomas' Churchy several
times ; and then I took him once to the big Communist — the big Com-
munist celebration in the Otympic Stadium.
Mr. Thomas. How long ago was that?
Mr. Allen. That was in the fall of 1937.
The Chairman. Did he ever make a talk to your group?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. He talked to your group?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Did he tell you about what he was trying to do in
Mexico ?
Mr. Allen. Yes: he described something of the objective of the
Gold Shirts, but Mr. Del Gado himself speaks English quite per-
fectly. He is a Baptist preacher and is interested — seems to be —
more along religious lines.
The Chairman. Religious lines?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Did he talk about Jews?
Mr. Allen. He did.
The Chairman. That is. all along religious lines, according to the
spirit of the New Testament?
4148 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. He had his own view.
The Chairman. His own interpretation?
Mr. Allen. His interpretation of it.
Mr. Whitley. Pablo Del Gado is married to a niece of Mexico?
Mr. Allen. Pablo Del Gado is married to a niece of former Presi-
dent Carranza.
Mr. Whitley. Pablo Del Gado has been conducting a campaign
with the view to running for President of Mexico in 1940. hasn't he?
Mr. Allen. I believe he has. I have seen newspaper dispatches to
that effect coming to San Francisco.
Mr. Whitley. But, so far as your being actively associated with
leaders down there and knowing of their activities, you have never
had any such connection?
Mr. Allen. Never.
Mr. Whitley. You have never undertaken to make such connec-
tions ?
Mr. Allen. Not except that desire to meet with Roderguiez.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. As I have already explained.
Mr. Whitley. Did you invite Roderguiez to attend a meeting of the
Silver Shirts in Los Angeles?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. When was that invitation issued?
Mr. Allen. I wrote a letter in the fall of 1936, if I recall — late
summer of 193G — and at that time I didn't know Roderguiez's
address and I sent the letter, general delivery, to El Paso, the only
address that I knew, because at that time Roderguiez was exiled out
of Mexico in the United States.
Mr. Whitley. As the result of his activities with the Gold Shirts,
wasn't that correct?
Mr. Whitley. He was in exile because of that, of his leadership?
Mr. Allen. He was exiled as a result of a demonstration they
had down there.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. In Mexico City.
The Chairman. Now, in all of these meetings of the various
groups you have described, they were all in sympathy to this pro-
gram, most of them, specificallv against communism, were they not?
Mr. Allen. That was the flavor of the speeches.
The Chairman. That was the flavor of the speeches?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Against communism; and passed resolutions
against communism?
Mr. Allen. Well, I do not know that there were resolutions passed.
The Chairman. But the spirit, the object of holding the meetings,
was to express opposition to communism?
Mr. Allen. To Jewish communism; yes.
The Chairman. And to try to agree upon an effort to stamp it
out, resist it?
Mr. xVllen. Yes.
The Chairman. And at those meetings they talked about the
horrible conditions in Russia; those conditions were described?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. About how people were oppressed?
Mr. Allen. Hosv they were oppressed by jews.
-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4149
The Chairman. By Jews under communistic control?
Mr. Ai.i.kx. Yes.
The Chairman. And what they said at all of those meetings,
everything, was against .Jewish communism?
Mr. A 1. 1. in. Yes.
The Chairman. In other words, did you ever hear a speaker say
anything: againsl naziism or fascism?
Mr. Allen. I don't know that I ever did.
The Chairman. As a matter of fart, there was a kindly feeling
toward nazi-ism and fascism, wasn't there?
Mr. Allen. "Well. I don't know that there was any feeling ex-
pressed at any meeting where I was ever present.
The Chairman. They didn't say anything against fascism?
Mr. Allen. I know in later times, in later months, they have
described nazi-ism and fascism as well as the rest.
The Chairman. In any of the publications, do you know of —
1'elley's or the other groups — of their having denounced naziism and
fascism ?
Mr. Allen. Well, I do not know that I have ever seen anything
in Mr. Pelley's publications where he has.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, by none of the publications
of these groups; you have never seen an article in which they de-
nounced fascisim or nazi-ism?
Mr. Allen. I do not know that I have.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you have seen many articles
expressing admiration for Hitler, have you not?
Mr. Allen. Admiration for Hitler insofar as he has taken care
of the Jew situation.
The Chairman. Of course, you have a feeling that his treatment
of Jews was a proper way?
Mr. Allen. As a result of what the Jews had done to the Govern-
ment.
The Chairman. In other words, you approved the policy in ref-
erence to Jews?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. And in all these meetings, it was in the name of
Christianity, or in the name of Christian America, and Christianity
was emphasized.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Most of the people were Christians, were they
not?
Mr. Allen. Yres.
The Chairman. Or professed to be.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. And so you approved the way they have handled
the Jew question?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Voorhis. Did I understand— I want to be clear about that,
Mr. Allen— vou to say this morning, and I got the impression that
you approved of some of the executions that had taken place more
recently in Russia. Was I correct about that?
Mr. Allen. Of Jewish Bolsheviki, most certainly.
Mr. Voorhis. You approved of them purging them?
Mr. Allen. I certainly do.
94931 — 39 — vol. 6 29
4150 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Do you feel — of course, you are opposed to "como-
nazi-ism'?
Mr. Allen. What?
The Chairman. To this "como-nazi-ism" ; Ave have to com a word
for that.
Mr. Allen. I am afraid I would have to weigh that.
The Chairman. Anyway, you are opposed to communism.
Mr. Allen. All right.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Allen, in all of your testimony you have, from
time to time, referred to the work which you are doing and these
organizations are doing. Do you firmly believe that the work you
are doing is in the best interest of America ?
Mr. Allen. I certainly do, Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Thomas. Now, Mr. Allen, why do you and the other leaders
interested in this same work continually contact and work with
foreigners ?
Mr. Allen. Well, Mr. Thomas
Mr. Thomas (interposing).- Just a moment. In order to assist
them in this thorough American work which you are doing.
Mr. Allen. Mr. Thomas, I do not know what other leaders are
doing, as regards that. As far as I am personally concerned I do
not have and do not want any contact with leaders of the foreign
governments. My calls upon these embassies here was for my own
personal information.
Mr. Thomas. Well, your contracts have included Captain Beamish.
Mrs. Fry, Mr. Schwinn, the Mexican Gold Shirts, the various bund
members
Mr. Allen (interposing). Yes; but Mr. Thomas
Mr. Thomas (continuing). The German Embassy, the Italian
Embassy, and the Arabs.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. And some others.
Mr. Allen. Yes. May I say that, after all, we are fighting an
international battle.
Mr. Thomas. Then it is an international situation?
Mr. Allen. I would say that as far as Jews are concerned, the
international view
Mr. Thomas (interposing). Well, just a minute. It is just in
America that I am interested in now.
Mr. Allen. Well, communism is all over the country.
Mr. Thomas. All right, Just answer that : it is not just America :
international?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. I see.
The Chairman. You are international to that extent,
Mr. Allen. We are fighting an international enemy. However, I
am concerned only about my own country.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, you attempted to get General Roder-
guiez, to have him come to Los Angeles to address a meeting of the
Silver Shirts?
Mr. Allen. I wrote him.
Mr. Whitley. Did he get the letter?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. So he did not appear, of course?
Mr. Allen. No.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4151
Mr. Wiutley. But you were anxious to have him come there?
Mr. Allen. May I stop right there a moment; I would like to
follow that through. That letter was returned to my Los Angeles
office and was stolen out of my desk and delivered over to this same
Mongol Spivak's paper, and he printed it, reproduced it, in his
communistic daily.
The Chairman. Why do you say "Mongol"?
Mr. Allen. I think most of the Jews are Asiatic.
Mr. Whitley. Was del Gado there?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Was the bund going to cooperate in that meeting?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. To which you invited Boderguiez?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with Avelino Salas?
Mr. Allen. Avelino Salas; the only thing I know about Mr.
Salas, at least my introduction to him? was by telegram which I
received at my home one morning stating that General Salas and
Mr. Leon were in San Diego and would like to have me come to San
Diego. The telegram was signed Salas.
I never heard of him before and I didn't answer the telegram. I
think in the middle of the same afternoon two men came to my porch
and introduced themselves as being Mr. Leon and Mr. Salas who had
sent that telegram and they introduced themselves to me as being
Gold Shirts, and I invited them in and they wanted to know what
the prospects might be for working with them, and we had a little
conversation and I told them there was absolutely no prospect of
mv working with them in any way.
Mr. Whitley. You had tried to get in touch with General Roder-
guiez to come to talk to your group?
Mr. Allen. Not with them.
Mr. Wiutley. Well, they were representatives of his organization?
Mr. Allen. I don't know whether they were or not, that has never
been proved.
Mr. Whitley. It hasn't?
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. Anything further on that?
Mr. Whitley. I want to ask further about that conversation.
Mr. Allen. They asked me for money and they insisted they did
not have any place to stay, and if I remember right, we took them to
a hotel that night, put them up. and the next morning they were gone.
Mr. Whitley. Did you hear further from them?
Mr. Allen. No. I think I got a letter from Mr. Salas in Nogales;
at that time I was having difficulty with my passport and I think I
asked if he would do some work at the Immigration Office in getting
something I wanted done there.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know why they represented themselves as
Gold Shirts.- or thought that you might be interested?
Mr. Allen. I have no idea.
Mr. Whitley. And in your joining in and working with them?
Mr. Allen. I have no idea.
Mr. Whitley. No idea?
Mr. Allen. These men came out of a clear sky and I do not know
thev were Gold Shirts.
4152 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Well, of course, had you met with success in 3^our
attempt to meet with Roderguiez he might have used this means to
get in touch with you
Mr. Allen (interposing). May I say again that my only object
in contacting Roderguiez. as I said before, was to ask him how they
were working.
Mr. Whitley. You wanted him to come to Los Angeles and ex-
plain to your group, to those who were interested, all about Gold
Shirts?
Mr. Allen. What they were doing.
Mr. Whitley. What they were doing?
Mr. Allen. What they were doing.
Mr. Whitley. And their activities?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. In other words, right in that connection, you just
regarded this as a world wide problem, international Judaism?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Affecting all peoples?
Mr. Allen. Affecting all peoples?
The Chairman. You naturally would be interested in any people,
joining with Germany, Italy, or anyone else on that common fight;
is that right ?
Mr. Allen. Well I do not know that I have any particular interest
except in America.
The Chairman. I mean with those who are S3rmpathetic to the
"natural foe"?
Mr. Allen. Those who are sympathetic, yes. We like to know how
they work.
The Chairman. In other words, you would work with any nation-
als, to that extent, that you are fighting a common foe, whether they
be German. Italian; is that a fact?
Mr. Allen. Not with anyone.
The Chairman. I mean with any people, from any nation.
Mr. Allen. Possibly.
The Chairman. And to the extent that any government or any
country is opposed to international Jewry you would be sympathetic
to that extent ?
Mr. Allen. Yes; I think so.
The Chairman. You would be for them?
Mr. Allen. I certainly would.
The Chairman. You have felt sympathetic to the Russian Gov-
ernment in its attitude toward Jews?
Mr. Allen. Well, I have no knowledge of what is going on there.
The Chairman. Would you join with them in that common front?
Mr. Allen. I would have to know something about it.
The Chairman. You said a while ago they had been executing the
leaders in Russia
Mr. Allen. According to the newspapers; I haven't been over
there.
Mr. Whitley. You haven't been in Germany or Italy either, have
you?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. But you are in thorough sympathy with their
treatment of this problem?
Mr. Allen. Well, they seem to be pretty effective.
tlieir
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4153
The Chairman. Well, assume thai Russia, and the Communists
become antisemetic, along the lines von have indicated when you
told about executions, would it not be just as logical for you to get
in touch with Communists, and have them meet with you, and with
the bund, so you could have a combination of Communists in your
group, all meeting together?
Mr. Ajllen. Well, 1 told you that was my impression; I don't know
how much truth there is in these reports.
The Chairman. But if it is true the same reason would exist,
would it not, for bringing them all together?
Mr. Ali.ex. Well, 1 would not have anything to do with com-
munism: I am not a Communist.
Mr. Thomas. At the same time to follow that out to its natural
conclusion, if it works out the way you have indicated, do you not
think you might have a combination of the Christian Free Press
and the Daily Worker? [Laughter.]
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Allen, do you believe in bimetalism?
Mr. Allen. 1 do not know much about money.
Mr. Voorhis. Well, you referred to the Gold Shirts and the Silver
Shirts, and I thought there might be, from that, some reference to
bimetalism.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, there is some correspondence in here
between Dr. Serge Mortchenko.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Will you identify him for us, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. Dr. Mortchenko is a practicing physician in Los
Angeles, of White Russia. A former officer in the Russian Army,
the White Russian Army.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. And somewhat actively identified.
Mr. Whitley. Active?
Mr. Allen. Among some groups.
Mr. Whitley. Does he have any particular group of his own or
just work with all the rest?
Mr. Allen. I understand there are groups of White Russians in
the Hollywood area and Mortchenko works out there.
Mr. Whitley. You have a letter here addressed to Mr. Anastasia
von Siotski, president of the Russian Fascist Party. Will you
identify him?
Mr. Allen. I understand he is head of the Russian group, and
that he had some kind of an organization.
Mr. Whitley. I see. You referred to him as the Russian Fascist
party anyway '.
Mr. Allen. That isn't the name: that is the name used anyway.
Mr. Whitley. Anyway you used that?
Mr. Allex. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You wrote to him and wanted to know if he wouldn't
be interested in lining up with your organization?
Mr. Allen. I believe some years ago I did.
Mr. Whitley. And cooperating with you. This letter is dated July
1936.
Mr. Allen. 193(5: yes.
Mr. Whitley. He is the party that Fritz Kuhn was visiting?
Mr. Allen. I think he was. I know he was one of the leaders.
4154 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. "Whitley. You wanted to know if he would be interested in
your program?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Is that not in line with your joining up with other
groups to oppose Jewry ?
Mr. Allen. I wanted to know what work they were doing.
The Chaiumax. That is in line with the general idea of joining
any group that opposed Jewry ?
Mr. Allen. Well, I am not joining them.
The Chairman. Well, I mean working with them, working with
those who are sympathetic.
Mr. Allen. Provided they are opposed to Jewish communism.
The Chairman. Is that not the logical outcome of such a fight?
Why woidd you be opposed to working witli Communists if they
came out against international Jewry?
Mr. Allen. Because I don't subscribe to their principles.
The Chairman. You don't subscribe to nazi-ism, do you?
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. Why would you work Avith them?
Mr. Allen. Well, I only work with them, as I said before, because
they are sympathetic to what we are doing in handling the Jewish
question.
The Chairman. All right ; would you not have the same feeling
toward Russia if she handled the Jewish question in the same way
that Hitler did?
Mr. Allen. As I said before I do not subscribe to the communistic
principles.
The Chairman. Well, you just said you did not subscribe to nazi-
ism or fascism ?
Mr. Allen. I am not familiar with their principles.
The Chairman. But you worked with Nazi-ist and Fascist, or
rather have been sympathetic to them ; have a sympathetic feeling
and work with them on account of the fight against international
Jewry.
Mr. Allen. Within limits of handling that question.
The Chairman. Yes. Are they handling it in a way that is satis-
factory to you in Russia?
Mr. Allen. Well. I think they have handled it very well.
The Chairman. What I am trying to get at is this, Mr. Allen, is
the inconsistency of your position. You do not approve nazi-ism nor
fascism; you are against that I
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. And yet you say you are in favor of how they have
handled the Jewish question.
Mr. Allen. Well. I do not subscribe to anything like dictatorship.
The Chairman. Is there anything you approve of in nazi-ism or
fascism except the way they have handled the Jews?
Mr. Allen. I do not know of anything particularly. I do not
know much about either of them; I don't know what fascism is.
The Chairman. I can't understand you. You work in sympathy
with the Nazi-ist and the Fascist.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. And are in accord in their treatment and handling
of the Jewish question ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4155
Mr. Allex. Yes.
The Chairman. But you say you would refuse to work with Com-
munists if they handled the Jewish question in the same way.
Mr. Alien. I have not — I am not working with any Communists.
And I have not in any way.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Whitley. You have a copy of a letter here addressed to George
H. Scioron, 1410 S. W. Building, Fresno, Calif.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Will you identify him?
Mr. Allen. He is a practising physician in Fresno, I believe.
Mr. Whitley. He is active in forming the Italian groups or in
cooperating with them?
Mr. Allen. I don't think so: he is not active at all.
Mr. Whitley. Well, he was in full sympathy with them?
Mr. A i lex. He is sympathetic, but I do not think he is active.
Mr. Whitley. Does he attend meetings?
Mr. Allen. Xot very often.
Mr. Whitley. Do you send literature to him ?
Mr. Allen. Literature has been sent to him.
Mr. Whitley. He is receptive to the idea, the program?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And sympathetic with the work.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Here is a letter addressed to Stackewietz.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You have already identified him?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you have already identified Arcand of Canada ?
Mr. Allex. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. The one Beamish gave a letter of introduction to?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Of the Green Shirts; isn't that the organization?
Mr. Allex. I don't know as to that ; I don't think so.
Mr. Whitley. A letter here adressed by you to Rev. Hugh W.
White, editor in chief, China Fundamentalist, Ming Chu, China.
Mr. Allex. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You have communicated with Dr. White?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Have you sent him literature?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And he is sympathetic to your activities?
Mr. Allex. Very much so.
Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, he refers here, in one of his
letters to you — makes some reference to his receipt of copy of World
Service, I believe. Do you recall that?
Mr. Allex. I don't recall that, Mr. Chairman, I may say.
Mr. Whitley. In other words this World Service any time any
individual or group is sympathetic to some program that you are
sympathetic to, they usually subscribe to World Service ?
Mr. Allen. I don't know as to that.
Mr. Whitley. They either subscribe to it or they send it to them
voluntarily ?
4156 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. I know "World Service is printed. I think, in eight
foreign languages.
Mr. "Whitley. For world distribution ?
Mr. Allen. For world distribution ; yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Just a minute, Mr. Counsel. World Service certainly
does not limit its material to the question of the Jews and Communists.
It has many other things in it. does it not ?
Mr. Allen. "Well. I could not say as to that. I don't read World
Service very carefully. In fact, it comes man}' times and lays around
and I do not even look at it.
The Chairman. Do you get the Service out of Rome, Italy \
Mr. Allen. Yes ; I have had several copies lately of it. I have not
looked at them ; they are still in the envelopes. I have not even opened
the envelopes an}T more than to pull them out and put them back; I
have not read them.
Mr. Voorhis. My point is, Is not World Service a propaganda sheet
in favor of any anti- Jewish regime ? Is not that a fair statement of it?
Mr. Allen. I think that is a fair statement of it.
The Chairman. What is the agency in Italy that is mailing out this
Service that they have ; what is the name of it ?
Mr. Allen. There is one only I am receiving from Italy; I don't
know whether it is put out by an agency or not, but it has an orange-
colored cover.
The Chairman. That deals with the Jew, too, does it not?
Mr. Allen. I think so. I have only read — looked through one copy.
The Chairman. How can you explain that these foreign countries —
Italy and Germany — mail those out to you? You never did request
it, did you ?
Mr. Allen. Well, I presume like all other mailing lists, when one's
name goes on a mailing list of one organization like World Service,
your name goes around everywhere. I get literature from Russia,
even. I don't know who in the world sends it to me.
The Chairman. Has that been since the purge of the Jews?
Mr. Allen. No. sir; it has been coining to me, I think, for over 2
years — not since the purge.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Allen, you have had contacts with most of these
countries, and one thing I am very pleased about in your testimony is
that I have not heard you once say anything about any contact with
Ireland. [Laughter.]
Mr. Allen. Well, perhaps I have overlooked something.
Mr. Thomas. We of Irish descent can be proud of that.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, did Dr. Hugh W. White, of Yehcheng,
China, ever send you any copies of the China Fundamentalist, his
paper?
Mr. Allen. I believe he did.
Mr. Whitley. And was his program and plan, as announced in the
paper, in keeping with your own plans and ideas?
Mr. Allen. Well, I don't recall what was said in that publication.
In fact, I do not think I read it very carefully. But I recall just
having received one, or perhaps two copies of that Fundamentalist.
Mr. Whitley. And you don't recall whether, in a general way, it
v :"- in sympathy with your own ideas, or in keeping with your own
views?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4157
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. Is that from China, did you say?
Mr. Whitley. That is right; that is the Chinese.
The Chairman. Did you read it I
Mr. Allen. I did not read it very carefully; no.
The Chairman. Is it also against Jews?
Mr. Allen. I don*t recall there was much said in there about Jews,
bul there may have been, Mr. Chairman. I don't even remember
new what they did say, or what the subject matter was.
The Chairman. Did he contend that international Jewry was the
trouble with China, was the cause of her troubles — or do yon know?
Mr. Allen. Well, I don't recall. I think there was some mention
about a lot of Jews being in Shanghai, or something like that.
The Chairman. And they were the ones that caused all the trouble?
Mr. Allen. Maybe; I don't know.
Mr. Whitley, there is a letter here from Dr. White to Mr. Allen
that indicates that considerable of the difficulties out there are being
cat sed by Jews, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Out in China?
Mr. Whitley. In China.
Mr Allen. Well, I presume so. There is nothing new about that.
Mr. Whitley. He says, quoting from his letter of February 18 to
Mr. Allen :
* The same thing was done in 26 countries (with a general hoard
over all). None of us knew where it came from, but later we discovered that
a secret Jew. named E. C. Lobenstine, was the mainspring for China. We did
not then know that he was a Jew, hut we know it now.
Then he goes on to tell about the difficulties.
The Chairman. Do not all of these publications teach that they
have the world divided up, and that certain Jews would control cer-
tain countries, other Jews certain others, and so on? Is that the way
this thing works — this International?
Mr. Allen. I could not say as to that. I don't think there was
anything I read quite like that.
Mr WhitleY. Reading further from that same letter, Dr. White
says:
In one of my letters from World Service, as we were discussing "credits,"
they said this. "Today credit is nine-tenths overestimation of work power, in
other words 'swindle' " —
and so forth.
So Dr. White indicates he gets World Service regularly out in
China.
Mr. Allen. I would not be at all surprised.
Mr. Whitley. Now we have correspondence here between you and
Mr. and Mrs. Curtiss. You have already identified them, I believe.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And the various Russian groups, and the Chinese
groups.
Now, getting back to the subject of the Gold Shirts, Mr. Allen, for
just a moment: I believe you stated that these were the only contacts
you had had with the Gold Shirts; you were never actively connected
with them, directly or indirectly, and knew very little about them and
had no desire to be affiliated or identified with them in an active ca-
4158 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
pacity. I ask you to identify this letter addressed to Mr. F. W. Oark>
Tacoma, Wash., by Henry Allen.
Mr. Allen (after examining paper) . I think that is a letter I wrote.
Mr. Whitley. This a letter dated Los Angeles, Calif., April 15, 1938,
addressed to Mr. F. W. Clark, 919i/o South Yakima Avenue, Tacoma,
Wash., signed "Henry Allen." In that letter, you state as follows:
Relative to the Gold Shirts of Mexico, please be advised that we found it nec-
essary to reorganize this group in August 1937. The activist elements have pro-
ceeded and are now carrying on under the name of the Mexican Nationalist move-
ment of which Pablo L-/def Gado is the nominal head. I am the lesral and per-
sonal representative of del Gado and the movement in the United States. Ad-
dresses could hardly be transmitted by mail.
Now, that is your statement, the statement in your letter to Mr.
Clark of April' 1938. How do you explain that in view of your
statements, which you have made here in your testimony today '.
Mr. Allen. That statement there is not true.
Mr. Whitley. It is not true ?
Mr. Allen. Under oath.
Mr. Whitley. Is not true under oath?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, you are now sworn
Mr. Allen. I am testifying under oath.
Mr. Whitley. But when you wrote this, you were not under oath,
and it is not true ?
Mr. Allen. Not true.
Mr. Whitley. Now, will you identify this letter, Mr. Allen [hand-
ing paper to witness] ?
The Chairman. At least, I think you ought to be complimented for
coming here and telling the truth, regardless of what you said before,
Mr. Allen. I have no regard for a man who prostitutes his oath.
Mr. Whitley. As long as he is not under oath
Mr. Allen. I might say "the moon was made of green cheese."
Mr. Whitley. Do you identify this letter, Mr. Allen ?
Mr. Allen (after examining paper). I think so.
Mr. Whitley. This is a letter dated Los Angeles. Calif., April 13,
1938, addressed "My dear G. D.". Who is "G. D."?
Mr. Allen. Mr. 'Deatherage.
Mr. Whitley. George Deatherage?
1\Tt* 'Vttfn^ xt?^ sir.
Mr. Whitley. It is signed "Rosenthal." Who is "Rosenthal"?
Mr. Allen. That is my pen name.
Mr. Whitley. Your pen name ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. [Laughter.]
Mr. Whitely. You used that name quite frequently m corre-
spondence, as a matter of fact, did you not, Mr. Allen ?
Mr. Allen. In telegrams and correspondence; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Now, in this letter you state as follows :
Have just sent del Gado into Sonora incognito. This move has resulted from
a four-party conference held in Yuma a few days ago. This party was com-
posed of Urbalejo, chief of the Yaqui Nation; Joe Mattus, his trusted lieu-
tenant: del Gado; and myself. Yocupicio has completely come over to our
side * * *.
Who is Yocupicio?
Mr. Allen. Yocupicio— that is Roman Yocupicio, Governor of
Sonora.
)
ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4159
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
Yocupicio has completely come over to our side which you can possibly from
the outcome of the little try-out in Agua Prieta a few weeks ago. del Gado
has arrived safely al Bacatete and will gel the boys in that part of the country
plenty active. He carried with him a plentiful supply of Spanish protocols
and literature. * * *
Thai is anti-Jewish Literature published in Spanish?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. "Whitley (reading) :
Inasmuch as I am his legal and properly accredited representative in the
United States, you rest assured thai there will be no doubl as to the objectives
of this movement south of the Rio Grande. I have received three letters from
General Iturbe * * * —
Who is Genera! Iturbe?
Mr. Allen. General Iturbe is one of the revolutionary generals in
Mexico City.
Mr. Whitley (reading) :
* * * in which he tells me that they are taking the Spanish copy of the
protocols which K sent to me * * * — -
Who is K?
Mr. Allen. I think that was Kositsin, who we formerly referred
to.
Mr. Whitley. This says you have three letters from General
Iturbe —
in which he tells me they are taking the Spanish copy of the protocols which
K sent to me, and making 5,000 copies of same. In a letter he begs me to set
a time and date for meeting him in Guadalajara for the purpose of perfecting
the necessary plans for active campaigning with del Gado. I will arrange all
of This just as soon as you consider it expedient.
In view of your testimony regarding your activities insofar as the
Gold Shirts are concerned, Mr. Allen, how do you explain that
statement?
Mr. Allen. Outside of the one reference there made to General
Iturbe. in which the letter states that I had sent him a copy of the
protocols and that he was to print 5,000 copies, the entire letter is a
fabrication.
Mr. Whitley. That entire statement about the Mexican situation
and the Gold Shirts?
Mr. Allen. Absolutely.
Mr. Whitley. And the meeting?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. There was no meeting, and the entire letter
is a fabrication.
Mr. Whitley. I see.
Mr. Allen. Outside of that one point.
Mr. Whitley. Outside of that one point ; in other words, you sent
him the protocols in Spanish?
Mr. Allen. In other words, I sent General Iturbe a copy of the
protocols in Spanish and he wrote me back that he was having 5.000
of them printed for distribution.
Mr. Whitley. What was your purpose in writing such a letter to
Mr. Deatherage, indicating all of this activity on your part, insofar
as Mexico and the organizations down there are concerned?
Mr. Allen. This is at the time. Mr. Chairman, that my mail was
being tampered with in the Pasadena post office.
Mr. Whitley. Why did that prompt you to write such a letter?
4160 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Did not you suspect that Deatherage was fabri-
cating a lot of stuff that, he was sending you?
Mr. Allen. Well, he may have been; I don't know. However,
this was for the consumption of those parties in the Pasadena post
office who were opening my mail and reading it.
Mr. Voorhis. Why would you want to say that kind of thing in
order for them to read it, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. Well, I thong] it that would be rather impressive.
Mr. Voorhis. I guess it would be, all right.
The Chairman. You were trying to impress Deatherage and lie
was trying to impress you ?
Mr. Voorhis. He was not trying to impress Deatherage: he was
trying to impress Pasadena.
Mr. Allen. No; there were two Jews in the Pasadena post office
who were reading my mail at that time.
The Chairman. Yon wanted to give them a big scare?
Mr. Allen. I don't know whether it scared them or not.
Mr. Whitley. Reading further from that letter, not on the subject'
of the Gold Shirts in Mexico, you state :
Have always regretted that time did not permit me to go to Montreal in order
to present myself and a splendid letter of introduction to Arcand which Beamish
wrote for me before he left. He urged me repeatedly to make sure to contact
Arcand. Auntie has always been antagonistic on this.
You mean by "Auntie'' Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry.
Mr. Whitley. Continuing from the same letter :
Last Sunday, I spoke before a great meeting at the German House; it was
the occasion of celebrating the success of the plebiscite. Between five and six
hundred were present of the combined German, Italian, Austrian, Spanish na-
tionals, and Russian groups. When I appeared on the platform, it sounded as
though pandemonium had been let loose; and when I finished, they called me
back twice. It was a most wonderful affair.
That was in keeping with your propaganda, and with the propa-
ganda of all those groups out there, who have as their central theme
the spreading of anti-Communist and religious hatred?
Mr. Allen. No, sir: not religious hatred.
Mr. Whitley. You don't call it that?
Mr. Allen. But getting rid of Jews from the Government and get-
ting rid from the country of Jews and Communists.
The Chairman. You had nationals from almost every country rep-
resented there, did you not '.
Mr. Allen. I don't think there were any Irish (here.
The Chairman. There were no Irish there, or Americans?
Mr. Allen. There were a lot of Americans.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, you say this was to celebrate the success
of the plebiscite. That was when Germany took over Austria, was
it not?
Mr. Allen. I believe so.
Mr. Whitley. And you were the principal speaker at the celebra-
tion in the German House at that time?
Mr. Allen. I was.
Mr. Whitley. But your only sympathy with the German and Nazi
form of government was the tact you like the way they handled the^
Jews, and Austria? [No answer.]
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4101
The Chairman. What was there about that plebiscite that made
you so interested in it?
Mr. Allen. I was not so interested in that particular, Mr. Chair-
man; I was just simply invited to speak there, and that is why I
spoke.
The Chairman. All those groups were there — Italians, Austrians,
Germans, and they gave you a great reception?
Mr. Ai.i.i'.N. Well, there were many Americans there, too.
The Chairman. There were?
Mr. Allen. I think that probably a third of the audience were
Americans.
The Chairman. About a third were Americans?
Mr. Allen. I would say so.
The Chairman. And a lot of the organizations, Christian organiza-
tions— the Christian Defenders; were they present?
Mr. Allen. I don't know as to the names of those present, Mr.
Chairman; but there were a great number of American people there.
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Allen, you referred rather favorably at that time
to the occasion that was being celebrated, did you not — I mean, in
order to get a reception like that, you must have spoken favorably of
the fact that Germany had included Austria and that progress was
being made by the Hitler regime?
Mr. Allen. I am sorry. Mr. Chairman, I have not a copy of my
address here, but I can furnish it to you, if you would like to see it.
The Chairman. Did you refer to that?
Mr. Allen. No; I don't think I made any particular reference to
that, because that was their object in meeting.
The Chairman. All you had to do was to refer to the Jews, to get a
reception ? [Laughter. |
All these movements you have been so closely identified with : Is it
your opinion they have made considerable progress in this country?
Mr. Allen. I would say a tremendous amount of progress has been
made in the United States: yes, sir; and Canada.
The Chairman. You think you are really making headway on this
program ?
Mr. Allen. I would say so. *
The Chairman. Well, you ought to know; you have been in it for
quite a while, in the inside picture.
Mr. Allen. I would say a tremendous amount of progress has been
made in the last 2 years.
The Chairman. It is being made very rapidly?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What do you hope to gain if it succeeds?
Mr. Allen. We hope to gain the riddance from the United States
Government — State, municipal, and Federal — of Communist Jews
seated in our Government.
The Chairman. And how do you propose to get rid of them?
Mr. Allen. Well, by constitutional means.
The Chairman. Just by having an amendment to the Constitution
prohibiting it?
Mr. Allen. No; by the ballot.
The Chairman. You are going to vote them out?
Mr. Allen. I would say that would be the only way you could do it.
4162 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. "Well, how are you going to vote out the ones who
are appointed and the ones who hold life jobs ?
Mr. Allen. Well, we have such things as "recalls" and "impeach-
ments."
The Chairman. You are going To impeach them and get them out ?
Mr. Allen. Some should be impeached. That does not except the
President.
The Chairman. Are you going to stop when you get them out — ■
when that is done?
Mr. Allen. Well, I don't see any reason why we should not stop, if
Ave accomplish that, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. You are not in favor of going any further; you are
not in favor of going as far as Germany went?
Mr. Allen. No, sir. I am only in favor of maintaining our Amer-
ican form of government, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Do you think this program you are advocating
would result in any different consequences than they did in Germany
and other countries?
Mr. Allen. I think if we accomplish this by educational means, it
should be accomplished in the proper way and in accordance with our
American way.
The Chairman. According to this correspondence, you are prepar-
ing for an armed conflict?
Mr. Allen. We are only preparing for armed defense against the
"red" Communists.
The Chairman. You mean they had in mind something else besides
constitutional means? They must have had in mind armed conflict?
Mr. Allen. I mean the defense against the fight backed by the Jews
and "reds" as we have seen already in San Francisco in these strikes.
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Allen, why don't you submit yourself to the didy
constituted governmental agencies in a case of that kind; are not they
the people that ought to deal with any situation that imperils the
peace ?
Mr. Allen. Yes; that is all right and should be done; but, unfor-
tunately, the regular constituted agencies are filled with Communists,
too,«and that don't except the Army and the Navy.
The Chairman. Wait a minute. I think you said the Army and
the Navy did not have any Jews in it.
Mr. Allen. I don't know whether they have or not; I don't know
the personnel.
The Chairman. You said a moment ago that the Jews did not
hold
Mr. Allen. No; I was talking about the key positions, I think.
The Chairman. What you mean is there is someone else besides
Jews who are Communists in the Army and Navy?
Mr. Allen. Certainly. I do not think all Communists are Jews by
any means.
Mr. Voorhis. What would you do with these people after you got
them out of office? Would you have them go to Madagascar then,
Mr. Allen, or what?
Mr. Allen. You mean the Jews?
Mr. Voorhis. I suppose so.
3 by
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4103
Mr. Aljlen. Well, I don't know. It might be well to set up segre-
gated cities, so thai they could go there in a protected area, so that
They won't be attacked by the pernicious gentiles.
Mr. Voorhis. You mean ghettoes, in other words?
Mr. Allen. Let us call them segregated cities, Jewish cities.
Mr. Voorhis. How are you going to get rid of the Americans and
drive them out so that the Jews can take their place in those cities?
Mr. Allen. Well, Mr. Chairman, 1 don't know about that; I have
not got that far yet.
Mr. AA'hitley. Mr. Allen, will you identify this letter?
Mr. Allkx (after examining paper). That appears to have been
written to me.
Mr. Whitley. This is a letter on the letterhead of the National
Liberty Party, 919y2 South Yakima Avenue, Tacoma, Wash., ad-
dressed to Mr. Henry Allen, 2860 Nina Street, Pasadena, Calif. The
letter is signed by Frank W. Clark, national chairman, National
Liberty Party. The letter states:
And so as I have told thousands and will tell millions — the Jews will be
buried here. We must not drive them out, as this would not be in keeping with
the "good neighbor'' policy of the Jew (Rosenfeld) in the White House, so
they will all be buried here. And do we intend to do it? No. When once the
Nation's masses wake up they will do it and without any encouragement upon
our part.
These Jews have been holding meetings all over the country for the purpose
of gathering in funds to have them shipped here by the boatload. While some
people think there is to be somewhere in the neighborhood of a few thousands,
the fact is they have planned to bring 5,000,000 here — and that means that many
more to slaughter. I am speaking from a military standpoint and not that of
a gunman, racketeer, or murderer.
Is that in line with your ideas of constitutional procedure, Mr.
Allen '.
Mr. Allen. Not at all.
Mr. Whitley. Not at all?
Mr. Allen. And I do not correspond with that party either.
Mr. Whitley. Well, you have exchanged correspondence with
him \
Mr. Allen. Yes; I know.
Mr. Whitley. You say:
I have before me your interesting letter of the 7th instant, with enclosures
which were forwarded to me here at Fresno.
Mr. Allen. That is true.
Mr. Whitley. That is to Mr. Clark, in which you say :
It is indeed encouraging to know that organizations which are fighting for
the principles set forth in the declaration of principles of the National Liberty
Party. I have just recently returned from New York and Washington, to find
a mountain of correspondence and a long list of speaking engagements, and
for that reason it is impossible for me to write you in detail at this time. I
shall, however, be glad to do so just the moment time will permit.
That is addressed to Mr. Clark. National Liberty Party, So that
vou-
Mr. Allen. I am not corresponding with Mr. Clark at all. I have
found out
Mr. Whitley. But you have corresponded with him?
Mr. Allen. I have; yes.
4164 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. You have found out he is a kind of racketeer in
the business?
Mr. Allen. Yes ; decidedly so.
The Chairman. He is a racketeer in the business who is peddling
this thing without any sincerity?
Mr. Allen. I do not think he is at all sincere.
The Chairman. You would have suspicions about certain others in
this movement, too, that they might be racketeering a little?
Mr. Allen. Sometimes those suspicions arise, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. And 3Tou have also received letters from some of
them containing statements that you had doubts about when you got
them, have you not?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, do you' not have very grave suspicions about
a movement in which you find the leadership making deliberate mis-
statements as indicating it is a racket?
Mr. Allen. I do not approve, Mr. Chairman, of misstatements if
they are deliberately made for any purpose whatever. There are
enough facts upon which our fight can be built ; the Jews have told us
enough of those.
The Chairman. You do not approve of these racketeers in this
movement ?
Mr. Allen. I certainly don't ; no, sir.
The Chairman. Have not you found many of them were very much
interested only in the question of getting money themselves ; that the
most of them are only anxious about getting some money out of it.
are they not I
Mr. Allen. Personally, I cannot say I have had any personal ex-
perience with them : but I say again that I
The Chairman. Do they help each other with contributions; are
they very generous with each other ?
Mr. Allen. I don't know as to that.
The Chairman. Were they ever very generous with you in a finan-
cial way '.
Mr. Allen. I know that no one can ever hang any suspicion of
racketeering upon me; I know that.
The Chairman. You never did get any money out of this move-
ment other than your expenses?
Mr. Allen. The only money I have ever had is just my bare
subsistence to go from here to there.
The Chairman. And that came from Mrs. Fry ?
Mr. Allen. That came from Mrs. Fry.
The Chairman. And. personally, concerning her, you have sus-
picions that she was probably a spy ?
Mr. Allen. That is quite true.
The Chairman. And you had a suspicion of that fact when you
were asking her for money?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. But you took it nevertheless?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. Do you think Mrs. Fry will be as generous in the
future as she has been in the past?
Mr. Allen. I hardly think so, Mr. Thomas — not with me.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4165
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen reading from this same letter, Mr. Clark's
letter to you. he states:
In Los Angeles there are over 70,000 .lews and as many Communists. The
Pacific Ocean is a pretty good place to start swimming from. In Portland
and Seattle there are likewise, and the ocean and drowning waters are quite
near. And this would put all the enemies in trout and have none in the rear,
such as the American Nationalist Confederation is going to have when they take
the issue in the open.
Now, first you refer there to the American Nationalist Confedera-
tion. That is Mr. George Deatherage's organization?
Mr. Allen. 'The American Nationalist Confederation of Mr. Death-
erage.
Mr. Whitley. That was the organization set up in Kansas City,
and Mr. Deatherage was made the head of it, and it uses the swastika
for its official emblem, and its purpose is to get all of these groups
into one big organization. Mr. Clark here indicates that the Ameri-
can Nationalist Confederation would have enemies all around them,
but his organization, the National Liberty Party, by drowning all
of the Jews on the west coast, would have no enemies behind them.
That is what he has advocated here in his letter.
Mr. Allen. Mr. Chairman. I think anyone who reads that letter
would come to only one conclusion — that it is the letter of a zealot.
The Chairman. Every letter I have read, and I have read hundreds
of them, was about the same way.
Mr. Whitley. You say, "It is indeed encouraging to note the or-
ganizations which, are fighting for the principles set forth in the
Declaration of Principles of the National Liberty Party." You are
encouraged to hear these things?
Mr. Allen. That is before I knew very much about Mr. Clark.
Mr. Voorhis. But that has nothing to do with your knowing what
Mr. Clark said in that letter.
Mr. Whitley. It is very obvious.
Mr. Allen. Am I replying to that letter?
Mr. Whitley. You have several letters from Mr. Clark. You
were replying to this letter of April 7 ?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir: I do not think I ever made any reply to the
letter you have just read.
Mr. Whitley. The letter of April 7 is the one in which he wanted
you to represent the organization in California.
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; to my recollection I have never made any
reply to the letter you have just read.
Mr. Whitley. I will read one other statement here :
The program of the National Liberty Party and that of the American Na-
tionalist Confederation is much alike in principle, and we are not unmindful
of the Hitler "25-point program."' hut these things can be better understood by
the American people — after the battle is over.
Mr. Allen. That is just Mr. Clark. I do not think you will find
Deatherage saying that or subscribing to those things.
Mr. Whitley. He has admitted in his testimony his sympathy
with Hitler and the Nazi government.
Mr. Allen. I am talking about that letter.
Mr. AVhitley. I believe that you stated you joined the Silver Shirts
in 1933?
94931— 39— vol.
4166 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. If I remember correctly, it was in 1933.
Air. Whitley. And since 1933 you have devoted a good part of your
time and energies to this so-called movement : Is that correct?
Air. Allen. Not a good portion.
Mr. Whitley. As a member of the Silver Shirts, making lectures,
and working for them \
Mr. Allen. I have devoted some time to it.
Mr. Whitley. And during that time you have been in contact with
and cooperated with Russian groups, Italian groups, Mr. Beamish,
of the South African group, the Britons, and with Mr. Arcand, of
the ( anadian group, or, at least, you have been in touch with the
Canadian group?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; not with the Canadian group. I've only had
one letter from Arcand.
Mr. Whitley. You have had some literature from him?
Mr. Allen. I do not recall that I have had any literature from
him.
Mr. Whitley. The fact that you have not personally discussed these
matters with him is because you could not go to Canada^
Mr. Allen. Xo, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You have been in touch with the Gold Shirt organi-
zation ?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. You have been in touch with those other groups, and
you have worked in cooperation with the German-American Bund
and they would help you in their meetings. They assisted you in
calling the convention.' You have cooperated with the bund and with
the Italian group in furthering the so-called American program. You
and those associated with you in the movement you are sponsoring
apparently think that these foreign groups are very necessary in
furthering your American program, as you call it, or your patriotic
program.
Mr. Allen. Nearly all of this group, the so-called German group,
Italian group, and the various other foreign groups, are composed of
American citizens who have been naturalized. They are American
citizens the same as anybody else.
Mr. Whitley. The German-American Bund professes only to have
American citizens as members, but they receive plenty of inspiration
from Mr. Hitler's government.
Mr. Allen. According to my information and belief, and I am
speaking with regard to my own experience with the Los Angeles
bund, there is no one in the bund unless he is an American citizen.
I do not know anything about the other bunds.
Mr. Whitley. That is what they say, but they have celebrations
when Hitler takes over another country.
Mr. Allen. They celebrated the Anschluss with Austria. They are
citizens of German extraction.
Mr. Whitley. Of this group, you say that of the members, prob-
ably one-third were native-born American citizens. You referred
awhile ago to the fact that about one-third were American-born
citizens.
Mi-. Allen. They are all American citizens. So far as I know, they
are naturalized.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4107
Mr. Whitley. You were representing a group organization, which
you approve, and which is at least in sympathy with the Fascist and
Nazi forms of government. A great many of them are referred to
as the Fascist group; and you approve of these Fascist groups?
Mr. Au.kn. These various groups, or these various groups of for-
eign extraction, are far more American. I think, than Jews, who are a
nation within the United States.
Mr. Whitley. Then, in your opinion, they are more American?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. During the period since 1933, when you first inter-
ested yourself in this subject, what other occupation or what other
business have you pursued?
Mr. A i lex. I have been unemployed some part of the time. In
1936 I attempted to rehabilitate my properties in Lower California, in
Mexico.
Mr. Whitley. Were you successful in that venture?
Mr. Allen. I was not successful, because after I had got only fairly
well started this affair came up with this Jew, Spivak, who stopped
my entry into Mexico by canceling my immigration.
Mr. Whitley. Did your relationship or contact with the Gold Shirts
have anything to do with the action of the Mexican Government in
not permitting you to come into Mexico?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; it was not. I have had my immigration re-
stored. I know it was this whelp, Spivak.
Mr. Whitley. You say it was not due to your contact with the Gold
Shirt.-, but to Spivak?
Mr. Allen. It was Spivak.
Mr. Whitley. It was the Mexican Government. During the period
from 1933 to 1939, how much time have you devoted to your mining
project in Lower California?
Mr. Allen. To this particular one ?
Mr. Whitley. Altogether, during that period of 6 years, from the
time you first became interested in this subject.
Mr. Allen. I do not know exactly the total length of time. It was
done very spasmodically. From 1936
Mr. Whitley (interposing). From 1933 to 1939, how much time
have you actually been engaged in this mining project dowTn there?
Mr. Allen. I have not been exactly engaged in mining work. I
have done mine-examination work.
Mr. Whitley. How much time have you devoted to that?
Mr. Allen. I suppose half the time.
Mr. Whitley. Half of 6 years?
Mr. Allen. Possibly that in the total.
Mr. Whitley. Do you mean you did a little today and a little next
week, working spasmodically ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. How much time did you actually spend in Mexico
during the 6 years from 1933 to 1939?
Mr. Allen. Possibly a year and a half.
Mr. Whitley. Approximately how many trips did you make there
during that year and a half ?
Mr. Allen. I would say a dozen trips to the property, possibly, and
four trips to Mexico City.
4168 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. What lias been your source of income during this
6-year period when you have devoted your attention, time, and ener-
gies to this subject matter?
Mr. Allen. I have had no income.
Mr. Whitley. You have earned no income?
Mr. Allen. No, sir^ I have earned no income.
Mr. Whitley. During the time you were devoting yourself to this
work you were earning no income from what this work brought in?
Mr. Allen. Which work?
Mr. Whitley. This work.
Mr. Allen. This work brought in no income.
Mr. Whitley. You are paid traveling expenses and living ex-
penses ?
Mr. Allen. Traveling expenses when I traveled.
Mr. Whitley. You did not get anything out of it ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; not a 5-cent piece.
Mr. Whitley. How did you finance the operations you performed?
Mr. Allen. The travel expenses were paid.
Mr. Whitley. How did you finance the other activities that you
had?
Mr. Allen. What other activities?
Mr. Whitley. How did you support yourself?
Mr. Allen. I have been on relief a great deal.
Mr. Whitley. Since what time?
Mr. Allen. I cannot recall. I have since 1933 at some time.
Mr. AVhitley. Since 1933 you have devoted the major portion of
your time to this work, during which period you have been on relief?
Mr. Allen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. Did you try to secure some employment or occupa-
tion during that period?
Mr. Allen. It is not possible for me to secure any employment in
my line of work, because wherever I have tried, I have found that
the Jews have absolutely got me boycotted.
Mr. Whitley. Is there no one else that you can work for?
Mr. Allen. I have not found anybody. They seem to have all the
means in my line of gainful occupation in my State.
Mr. Whitley. Since you have come in contact with this subject,
you have devoted your time during the last G years to traveling over
the country, lecturing and speaking?
Mr. Allen. No, sir; I have not been traveling all over the country.
Mr. Whitley. You have traveled on the west coast, on the east
coast, down South, and in Mexico?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That is a pretty good cross-section of the country.
You have traveled around, helped to organize conventions, distributed
literature, made lectures, and assisted in every way possible, during
which time you were getting your expenses. You had no means
of income other than what you got out of them by way of expense
money ?
Mr. Allen. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. And in the meantime you were on relief?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What do you mean by relief? Was it W. P. A. or
what ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4169
Mr. Whitley. State what type of relief it was.
Mr. Allen. It was State relief.
The Chairman. I do not exactly understand this. You charge
that the Jews control the American Government, and being in control
of the Federal Government and State government, they nevertheless
provided von witli subsistence that enabled you to go around and
carry on this program.
Mi1. Alli:n. The Jews did not provide me with anything.
The Chairman. They are in control of the Government, you say,
and yet they gave you relief.
Air. Ai.i.kx. The taxpayers support the Government.
The Chairman. But you say the -lews are in control of the Gov-
ernment, and yet they afforded you an opportunity to secure relief.
Air. Ajllen. The taxpayers did it.
The Chairman. But you said that the Jews administer it.
All'. Allen. I did not say they controlled it, but I said the}' held
the key positions.
The Chairman. Holding the key positions would mean control.
Ah-. Yoorhis. You were not denied relief in spite of your activities,
because you say
Air. Allen (interposing). There is no reason why I should be
denied support.
The Chairman. Assuming that members of the German-American
Bund and of the Italian Fascist groups are agents of foreign powers,
and assuming that we may regard them as the intelligence eye of
foreign powers, would not there be the greatest danger that you, and
others similar to you who join hands with them, be made dupes in
carrying out the program of foreign governments in the United
States?
Mr. Allen. If I thought for a moment that they were agents of
foreign powers I would have nothing to do with them.
The Chairman. But from that viewpoint, if you have been work-
ing with them and others in these groups, the German-American
Bund and others, lending your support to the movement, you would
be simply made the dupe of some foreign powers, and they would be
using you to carry out their program in the United States.
The Chairman. That would be true if you carry out the program
in the usual way.
Air. Allen. There is nothing that I have ever done that I am in
the least particle ashamed of. and if at any time I believe any time I
am doing anything that is assisting or attributing to aid of any for-
eign power
The Chairman. Well, I am not saying you would do so intention-
ally in anything you are doing. What I mean is this: Assume, for
instance, that the bund is the agent of a foreign power, and there is
considerable testimony to that effect, or assume that the Italian
Fascists are tied directly with the Italian Government and that the
purpose in the United States was to form these organizations to pro-
mote the interests of those countries over here to sabotage in time of
war. to furnish intelligence, to spy upon our Government here, you
would be in a position — you and many others who have been dragged
into this network of carrying on this appeal to racial prejudice —
you would be in the position of being used by a foreign government
to promote its program in the United States.
4170 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allex. Well at such time as I am convinced of that. Mr.
Chairman. I certainly would have no further association with any
of them, but I haven't been at all convinced of that as yet.
The Chairman. What would it take to convince you that it was
true?
Mr. Allex. Well. I would think
The Chairman (continuing). Would you want Mr. Kukri to admit
it?
Mr. Allex. No; I do not think I would expect that.
The Chairman. How much evidence do you want to convince you
that such a movement was being sponsored for that purpose?
Mr. Allex. I would want to be reasonably assured of that fact.
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Allen, do you read German '.
Mr. Allex. No.
Mr. Voorhis. Then you have never read their comments, in some
of the bund papers, on their attitude about taking out American
citizenship, then ?
Mr. Allex. No.
The Chairman. Do you not think when you see the strategy that
other organizations adopt, and the methods are the same methods as
used in Germany, do you not entertain a fear that the same thing
might happen in the United States?
Mr. Allex. Well, Mr. Chairman, there is only one thing, as I said
before, that I am interested in, and that is, in ridding the country
of Jewish communism.
The Chairmax. Many people said the same thing over there.
Mr. Allen. All right.
The Chairman. And everybody lost their liberty in Germany: it
wasn't just Jews; there was only about 500.000 of them.
Mr. Allen. I don't know as to that, about the liberty being lost,
coming from a Jewish-controlled press: T don't believe that.
The Chairman. You do not believe it?
Mr. Allex. I don't believe the Jewish-controlled pres-.
The Chairmax. Well, you consider the whole press, outside of
Pelley's publications, in that category?
Mr. Allen. No; I am not quite that silly.
The Chairman. But you believe a great percentage of them are'
Mr. Allex. I certainly do; and the radio almost 100 percent.
Mr. Thomas. You say the Jews control the pre---. What news-
papers do you include in that?
Mr. Allen. The Jew-controlled press?
Mr. Thomas. Yes.
Mr. Allen. Well, I think the best thing to do is to look at the
Associated Press and consider that about 70 percent of the emplovees
are Jews.
Mr. Thomas. Well, what specific newspapers?
Mr. Allen. Sir?
Mr. Thomvs. What specific newspapers?
Mr. Allen. Are JewT controlled?
Mr. TnoMAS. Yes; in this Jew-controlled press, that you referred
to.
Mr. Allen. What papers?
Mr. Thomas. What specific papers?
Mr. Allen. How about the Philadelphia Inquirer?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4171
Mr. Thomas. You say the Philadelphia Inquirer is a definitely
Jew-control Km I press?
Mr. Allen. Well, who owns it — Annenberg.
Mr. Thomas. All right. What oilier papers?
Mr. Allen. I would say that the New York Times, owned by
Selsberger.
I would say that the Xew York Post, owned bj7 Stearns.
Mr. Thomas. Not any more. It used to be.
Mr. Allen. Well, I am mistaken if it is not at the present time.
As far as the radio
The Chairman. What other papers?
Mr. Thomas. You have only named a few newspapers.
Mr. Allen. Well, if yon want me to do so I will go back to the
hotel and make up a list.
Mr. Thomas. You made quite a wide statement, and you must have
some papers in mind.
Mr. Allen. The Hearst publications.
Mr. Thomas. The Hearst publications?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Yoorhis. How about the Los Angeles Herald?
Mr. Allen. As far as that is concerned, I am suing the publisher
for libel, for $400.000
Mr. Yoorhis. Well, that hasn't anj'thing to do with it.
Mr. Allen. But it is a Jewish press.
Mr. Thomas. Name some of the other newspapers. I don't think
you have named more than four or five. I think there are about
10,000.
Mr. Allen. I think there are something like 10,000, and it would
take a long time to go over them. I don't know that I can go down
the list and name them. I think it is a matter of common knowl-
edge with most people that the press of the United States is Jew-
controlled, not through ownership, but the power of advertising of
the Jewish merchandising houses.
Mr. Thomas. Well, this committee is seeking information, and all
the information it can get on any subject that has anything to do
with un-American activities; the committee is interested in that, and
the reason I am asking you the question is that there are 10,000 news-
papers in the United States, and you haven't named 25 of them as yet.
5lr. Allen. Mr. Thomas, let me qualify that answer somewhat by
saying that what I meant by "Jew-controlled press" is not controlled
through ownership, not through stockholdings, but through the power
of the Jewish advertising in the papers and the control of their
policies.
Mr. Thomas. I know what you mean ; but I want to get the names
of the paper- which you think are controlled by the Jews.
Mr. Allen. That is what I meant by "Jew-controlled press."
The Chairman. Just a second. When you interject the question
of newspapers or Jews or Catholics — the onty thing we are inquiring
about is whether there is any connection between these groups and
foreign groups.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. When you get into the question of anti-Semitic
we would have to go into the question of Catholic and anti-Catholic,
Baptist and anti-Baptist, and so on down the line. There is hardly
I
4172 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
a church in the United States in which there is not some organiza-
tion that is organized to fight for certain things.
Mr. Thomas. Yes, Mr. Chairman ; but the witness has made a
very broad statement, and I am trying to find out what is running
through the witness' mind. All day long he has been talking about
Jews, and I don't know yet what he has in mind. I would like to
find out what is running through his mind.
Mr. Allen. Mr. Chairman, have I made myself clear as to my
viewpoint on the Jew-controlled press?
Mr. Thomas. Oh, you have made the same statement that all the
other haters of the Jewish people have made over a period of time.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. But my reason in asking this question is to bring
that point out.
Mr. Allen. Well, it is my opinion that the Jews control the press,
that it is controlled through the power of full-page advertising of
the Jewish merchandising houses.
The Chairman. You think the radio is controlled by Jews?
Mr. Allen. I don't only think it; I know it.
The Chairman. You think the Government is controlled by the
labor organizations, and it is controlled by Jews?
Mr. Allen. Well, I think there are a lot of them.
The Chairman. They control everything, then?
Mr. Allen. There isn't very much left.
Mr. Thomas. Do you think they control this committee?
Mr. Allen. Sir ?
Mr. Thomas. Do they control this committee?
Mr. Allen. Well, I am not prepared to say as to that, I am sure.
Mr. Thomas. But I have an idea you think so.
Mr. Allen. Xow, Mr. Thomas, I hope we wont get into a per-
sonal matter.
Mr. Thomas. Based upon some of Mr. Pelley's papers?
Mr. Allen. I do not at all times believe a lot of the things Mr.
Pelley writes.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen. I believe you have testified on several
occasions, in the last 2 or 8 days, that you did not know what fascism
was; when that term was used you didn't comment, wouldn't com-
ment, because you didn't know what it meant.
Mr. Allen. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. You did not have any definition?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You have, to the contrary, your own definition, and
yet you said you did not have any.
Mr. Allen. May I just say something there?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Allen. That as far as I can see the term nazi-ism and fascism
applies to one who is opposed to organized Jewry.
Mr. Whitley. I see. Now you have also stated on several occa-
sions, while testifying, that you are not antisemitic. Is that correct?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And a few minutes ago
Mr. Allen (interposing). I am not antisemetic ; because the Arabs
are a vast part of the semetic race.
my
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4173
Mr. Whitley. I know your explanation of it. You said a few
minutes ago that you didn't approve of the statement which I read
out of Mr. Clark's letter, statement indicating that we would see
foreign violence, and his statement with reference to destroying
people.
Mr. Ai.i.f.x. Ye-.
Mr. Whitley. By shooting them and slaughtering them.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
dle Mr. Whitley. Yon don't approve of that?
Mr. Allen. Correct.
Mr. Whitley. 1 want to read. Mr. Allen, a letter which was intro-
duced, identified and introduced in evidence last year during the
hearings of this committee, which letter was dated July 31. I don't
have the letter, but it is in the record of the hearings.
The letter is dated July 31, 1937, written on the letter head of
"American White Guard, Division Headquarters, Los Angeles, Calif.,
U. S. A." That was your organization, was it not?
Mr. Allen. I believe it was: yes.
Mr. Whitley. That was signed by Henry Allen, and in this letter
is contained the following statement:
You say that some people blame the Fascists, and some blame the Jews and
Communists for the universal world bedlam of today. May I inform you that,
reduced to its final analysis, fascism, in reality, is nothing but anti-Jewism.
Is that your definition of fascism ?
Mr. Allen. I presume it is, if I used it there.
Mr. Whitley. That was the definition you used. Quoting further :
From this, you may understand that until we totally eliminate these oriental
mongrels from our national life, and until there is a purging of the whole world
which has become bastardized by this swine of the ghettos, we may suffer our-
selves here in the United States to be herded like cattle as in Spain, as in Russia,
before the Jewish commissars who will now come into power with the passage
today of the Roosevelt-Jew-Communist wage-and-hour bill.
The American White Guard gives solemn warning to the international goulash
of oriental scum which today permeates our Government in Washington. Let
those who dare attempt to betray America, and there will be more Jew corpses
cluttering up American gutters than ever were found in the most ambitious
European pogroms.
Incidentally that is your statement along that line ?
Mr. Allen. That is what I said.
Mr. Whitley. And you condemned the statement of Frank Clark?
Mr. Allen. That is what I said at that time.
Mr. Whitley. You do not approve of his statements. Do you think
your statement is any more temperate ?
Mr. Allen. I do not know that it is.
The Chairman. That expressed your own views ?
Mr. Whitley. That expressed your views?
Mr. Allen. I might say that perhaps I have come to a little change
in viewpoint. When was that letter Avritten?
Mr. Whitley. July 1937.
The Chairman. You have changed your viewpoint since then?
Mr. Allen. Sir?
The Chairman. You have changed your viewpoint since then?
Mr. Allen. Well, I have come to realize that isn't the way to look
at the thing altogether.
4174 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. You think it should he done in another way ?
Mr. Allen. I think we should attempt to accomplish it, yes; by
constitutional means, by the ballot.
The Chairman. You do not think the same as you did in 1937?
Air. Allen. I did not think that when I wrote that letter.
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Allen, you referred to the wages-and-hours bill.
I voted for it, and I would like to know why you refer to it in that
manner.
Mr. Allen. Well, I do not know that I can sav — I voted for It >ose-
velt in 1936, too.
The Chairman. You were working for the organization when you
wrote that letter, weren't you; you were trying to get member:- when
you wrote that letter ; isn't that the fact ?
Mr. Allen. No ; it was negligible, so far as the organization is con-
cerned, so far as the numbers were concerned, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Whitley. It was not your fault ; you tried to build it up ?
Mr. Allen. No ; there was no great attempt on my part to do so.
Mr. Whitley. You have stated, I believe, you have indicated, at
least, some distrust in Mr. Pelley,s publication; is that correct?
Mr. Allen. Oh, no; I did not want you to infer that. I simply say
that I do not believe a lot of things that Mr. Pelley said.
Mr. Whitley. Continuing with the last paragraph of this letter :
I might suggest that the Pelley Publishers at Asheville, N. C, P. O. box 2630,
published the Jewish Protocols, and they also have much other valuable litera-
ture for sale. The magazine New Liberation is a magnificent publication of
educational worth.
That is one publication the Jews do not control?
Mr. Allen. Mr. Chairman, I have tried to refresh my mind as ro
just why I wrote that letter and I recall now why I wrote it, if you
want me to tell the committee.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
.Mr. Allen. In Kansas City we have a man there by the name of
Burkhead. who is one of the Jew fronts, or I might say a gentile
front, whatever you call him.
This man has letters written to Mr. Deatherage, writes letters to me
and wants to know what we think of this or that particular organi-
zation, or something of that kind. Now, that letter was written to
one of these Burkhead men. I recall that letter; I am sure that the
letter was written to this Kansas City man, the name I want to
The Chairman. That didn't express your views?
Mr. Allen (continuing). At the moment let me continue? Now I
knew who that man was, and I knew he was a Jew, and I knew as a
Jew he was trying to join our organization and get in the meeting
some way to sabotage, and I wrote him that kind of a letter.
The Chairman. I see.
Mi-. Whitley. Just like you wanted him to know
Mr. Allen. In the same way as the other one.
The Chairman. That doesn't represent your own belief?
Mr. Allen. I do not think that you would look at me and say I
think that.
The Chairman. Looking at you and thinking of some of these
other organizations I have my doubts that you really believe in some
of the things you say.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA .UTIY1TIKS 4175
Mr. Ai.i.kn. 1 believe in a greai deal I say, Mr. Chairman; no mis-
take about that.
Mr. Voorhis. May I ask you one further question?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Voorhis. You stated a while ago, 1 believe y<>u called every-
body a Fascist who is opposed to the thing you are opposed to, to
international Judasm, and in view of the fact of all the letters that
have been written to you and written to Mr. Deatherage, and you tell
us were written for a purpose which wasn't true at all, since all of
these matters have come out here, it is going to be pretty difficult for
people to put credence in the charges that are made by people who
are in this movement against other people whom they claim are
dangerous to the United States.
Mr. Allen. Mr. Chairman, personally, I do not want you to mis-
understand me. I am no longer active.
The Chairman. You have changed your views
Mr. Allen (interposing). Do not misunderstand me; no.
The Chairman. You have been disillusioned by your contacts with
the leaders, have you (
Mr. Allen. No; I have great regard for some of them, and I know
they are sincere and I am thoroughly sympathetic with them; they
•are just as sincere as I am, but I am trying to rehabilitate my busi-
ness and I have not carried on actively in this affair for quite some
time.
Mr. Whitley. You feel now you do not have anybody to pay your
expenses, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. Well, I would not put it that way. I got along before
I ever met Mrs. Fry ; I did not need Mrs. Fry to get along.
Mr. Whitley. What other sources of financial assistance have been
furnished you in this movement, since 1933?
Mr. Allen. None whatever.
Mr. Whitley. Just Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. All she ever paid was my expenses.
Air. Whitley. You have previously admitted today, under oath,
that even while you worked for her, carrying out her orders and
accepting her financial assistance, that you suspected that she was
engaged in espionage.
Mr. Allen. I diet after a while.
Mr. Whitley. And you are very strong in that belief?
Mr. Allen. I was in the later part of it; yes.
Mr. Whitley. You still worked for her and accepted financial
assistance in carrying out orders from her, did you not? Now, have
you ever been arrested, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. Yes; I have.
Mr. Whitley. What occasion and for what?
Mr. Allen. I have been arrested for distributing handbills.
Mr. Whitley. Where was that ?
Mr. Allen. That was in San Diego.
Mr. Whitley. What date \
Mr. Allen. That was in April 1938— April 21.
Mr. Whitley. 1938?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Any other occasion ?
4176 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Allen. And again for distributing handbill?.
Mr. Whitley. Again where?
Mr. Allen. That was in Los Angeles.
Mr. Whitley. What date was that ?
Mr. Allen. I don't, recall the date; I think it was in the fall of
1936.
Mr. Whitley. Fall of 1936?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. What was the outcome of that charge I
Mr. Allen. That was disposed of by a fine of $15.
Mr. Whitley. Who paid that?
Mr. Allen. Mr. Alexander.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Alexander?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did Schwinn ever pay a fine for you '.
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Did he ever put up bail for you ?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Alexander paid the fine?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. For you ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. You were distributing handbills for the Silver
Shirts?
Mr. Allen. For Mr. Alexander.
Mr. Whitley. Well, he was the Silver Shirts, wasn't he?
Mr. Allen. For Mr. Alexander.
Mr. Whitley. Your former arrest in San Diego was for distribut-
ing handbills for Mrs. Fry?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Now were you arrested any other time?
Mr. Allen. I have been ; yes.
Mr. Whitley. You have been?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Recently?
Mr. Allen. No ; 27 years ago.
Mr. Whitley. Twenty-seven years ago?
Mr. Allen. Yes,
Mr. Whitley. I see. What was that for?
Mr. Allen. That was some check charge.
Mr. Whitley. Some check charge?
The Chairman. What ?
Mr. Whitley. Some check charge. You mean a bogus check or
because of insufficient funds?
Mr. Allen. Insufficient funds.
Mr. Whitley. Insufficient funds?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. In regard to (hat arrest in San Diego; what was the
fine?
Mr. Whitley. Were you fined in connection with the charge in
San Diego?
Mr. Allen. No ; the case was dismissed.
Mr. Whitley. You were charged for distributing handbills with-
out a license or permit?
or
UX-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4177
Mr. Allen. No; for possessing a deadly weapon.
Mr. Whitley. Not for distributing handbills without a permit?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. For possession of a deadly weapon?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Any other arrest ?
Mr. Ai.i.kn. No.
Mr. Whitley. Since L933?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Just the two or three times?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Knhn has Keen arrested in Los Angeles for
distributing handbills hasn't lie?
Mr. Allen. I don't know as to that.
Mr. Whitley. You don't know?
Mr. Allen. I couldn't say.
Mr. Whitley. And he has never paid a fine for you?
Mr. Allen. No.
Mr. Whitley. Or furnished you any financial assistance?
Mr. Allen. Never in anyway.
The Chairman. What was that stick or deadly weapon; what is
the name for it?
Mr. Allen. They call it a "kike" killer.
The Chairman. Mr. True manufactures it?
Mr. Allen. They are manufactured by Mr. True.
The Chairman. And sold around there?
Mr. Allen. May I explain that. The stick was in the automobile
at the time of my arrest and the officer came around to the side of
the car and told me he was going to arrest me for distributing
handbills, and I told him I was sitting- in the car, not distributing
handbills. And, he said well, I am going' to arrest you for conspiring
to distribute handbills. And, as he opened the car door he saw this
stick down under the driver's seat which my son had left in the car.
The Chairman. Your son had bought the stick?
Mr. Allen. No: the stick was sent by Mr. True to my son.
The Chairman. As a present ; had sent it out ?
Mr. Allen. Well. I don't know as to just that. Mr. Chairman.
And the occasion of sending the stick to my son was brought about
through the Jews' assault upon n^self and my son as a result of
which I had to have my son's eye removed.
The Chairman. What Jews' assault?
Mr. Allen. There were four Jews assaulted us.
The Chairman. Four ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you file a complaint against them?
Mr. Allen. Yes; a charge was brought against them for assault
and battery, and the judge was controlled by the politics in Pasadena
and dismissed the case, even though the Jews went on the stand and
admitted the assault.
The Chairman. He was controlled by the Jews?
Mr. Allen. He certainly was.
Mr. Voorhis. Is Pasadena politics under the control of the Jews?
Mr. Allen. Well, Judge Ne wells was controlled by them.
4178 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Was the judge who dismissed the case in San Diego
controlled by them, in the charge brought against you in San Diego?
Mr. Allen. I don't know as to that. I am sure.
The Chairman. What happened on the check charge; that is, what
did they do to you?
Mr. Allen. I had to go to jail.
The Chairman. You had to go to jail?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, were you arrested in Philadelphia. Pa., in
11)12?
Mr. Allen. That was the same thing.
Mr. Whitley. Insufficient funds. That was the same thing you
referred to?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That was disposed of in what way \
Mr. Allen. I just mentioned that.
Mr. Whitley. What was the sentence you got?
Mr. Allen. One year.
Mr. Whitley. One year?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That was in San Quentin ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Were you arrested in Santa Barbara. Calif., in
1915?
Mr. Allen. That was on account of the same thing.
Mr. Whitley. No; you were sent to San Quentin July 1, 1912.
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. On this previous charge?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And you were arrested in Santa Barbara, Calif.,
in April 1915.
Mr. Allen. Yes; that was the same thing.
Mr. Whitley. The same thing?
Mr. Allen. That was the same kind.
Mr. Whitley. The same kind of charge ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you think this is material ?
Mr. Thomas. I do not think so.
Mr. Allen. Well, I would like to ask you if I have to submit to the
same kind of persecution as I have been by Jews.
I think this is done in this line of questioning.
Mr. Whitley. Yon brought it on, Mr. Allen, in referring to your
San Diego arrest.
Mr. Allen. That was quite another matter; besides, you have
brought in arrests here that happened 27 years ago.
Mr. Whitley. Do you have any aliases?
Mr. Allen. No. Not
Mr. Whitley (interposing). Other than Rosenthal?
Mr. Allen. And you know about that.
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
The Chairman. Any other matters, gentlemen?
Mr. Allen. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Yes.
at
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4179
Mr. Allen. I sat here yesterday and heard a man accused of per-
jury, or at least la1 appeared to have committed perjury. I think
that punishment is due anyone who violates his oath. But, you had
at the other hearing a man who testified against me again and again,
and I have read the record, and I have read his testimony, and I refer
to that Jew. Arnold Gingrich, publisher of Ken magazine.
The Chairman. You want to deny something he said I
Mr. Allen. I respectfully request that you cite him for perjury for
his statements made under oath.
The Chairman. Do we have any other facts than your own of
evidence that he committed perjury himself?
Mr. Allen. Well, I certainly have.
The Chairman. Have you got proof you can furnish the committee
wherein he perjured himself?
Mr. Allen. He stated that I was an agent of a foreign government.
The Chairman. Is that in the record?
Mr. Allen. Yes. He stated that I was engaged in gun running, in
the exportation of arms into Mexico and a number of other things.
My attorneys in Los Angeles have all of that and are now suing him
for $500,000 for libel, and in addition to that I certainly want some
action taken against that witness.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that Mr. Allen pre-
pare his refutation and the evidence of perjury and present it to the
committee, and that he furnish documents and data for consideration,
if action is to be taken.
Mr. Allen. I shall certainly do that.
The Chairman. All right, prepare that statement and submit it
to us.
Any other questions, gentlemen?
I do not know whether we will have a meeting tomorrow or not.
We will have to determine that. We had some witnesses called
specifically to contradict certain statements made by Mr. Fritz Kuhn
but those witnesses have asked for a postponement due to the European
situation, because of relatives residing in Germany, so we cannot
have those witnesses at present.
There will have to be an announcement made later on this evening
whether we will meet in the morning.
Mr. Allen. Am I excused?
The Chairman. Yes; you are excused.
The committee will go into executive session.
(The public hearing was adjourned and the committee proceeded
to consider business in executive session.)
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INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
MONDAY, AUGUST 28, 1939
House of Representatives,
Special Committee to Investigate Un- American Activities,
Washington, D. C,
The committee met at 10 a. m., in the caucus room, House Office
Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding.
Present : Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee.
The Chairman. Let the committee come to order, please. While
the witness is on his way, I will ask — Is Mr. William Dudley Pelley
in the room? Mr. Pelley?
(No response.)
While we are waiting on the witness, will you state for the record or
introduce evidence showing the efforts the committee has made to
locate Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Whitley. Yes; I will, Mr. Chairman. The telegrams and let-
ters will be down in just a minute, at which time I will introduce them
into the record.
I would like to state that numerous telegrams and letters have been
addressed to Mr. William Dudley Pelley, of Asheville, N. C, request-
ing that he appear here as a witness. He has not responded in any
manner to any of those requests. The only information that we have
been able to get at all was that he was not in Asheville.
Now, the committee does not have the time, nor the finances, nor
the facilities, to conduct a Nation-wide search for Mr. Pelley in order
to give him the opportunity to appear here. The investigator who
handled the investigation of the activities of Mr. Pelley is qualified
to introduce into the record the documents, the documentary evidence,
which he has obtained, and to testify concerning his investigation.
So I submit that the committee, in the absence of Mr. Pelley, and since
he has declined all opportunities which were offered him to appear
here — I suggest that the committee proceed with the introduction
of the evidence with reference to Mr. William Dudley Pelley.
The Chairman. You will develop that our investigator has under-
taken to locate him all over the United States, and every effort lias
been made to find out where he is?
Mr. Whitley. That is right.
The Chairman. The last information we had was he was in Mon-
tana— there had been some rumors to that effect; but we have not
been able to find out where he is, definitely?
Mr. Whitley. That is right,
4181
94931— 39— vol. 6 31
4182 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Now, I believe Mr. Pelley has been indicating in
his papers that he wanted to appear, but the committee was afraid
to call him. The committee has given him every opportunity to
appear here and confront the evidence which has been gathered with
reference to him and his activities. Mr. Pelley not being here, the
committee will proceed.
And I may say that the same procedure will probably be adopted
with reference to another gentleman who has engaged in a similar
activity. Last year they condemned the committee because, they
said, we would not hear them. Now, when we give them every op-
portunity to come here and state the facts, they decline to do so.
All right, let us proceed. Raise your right hand. You solemnly
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help 3'ou God?
Mr. Barker. I do.
The Chairman. May I suggest, and I am sure, Mr. Counsel, you
will agree, that we take up the phases and develop each one of them,
because it involves certain financial matters and complicated matters
and it is going to be difficult to follow it unless we take it up phase
by phase and develop each phase as we go along.
The chair's idea is that we will continue tomorrow with another
phase of another party, probably the Smythe matter ; then, following
that, with other correspondence. Then perhaps the committee will
issue a preliminary report the latter part of this week, dealing with
all of these Fascist organizations and individuals. That report, of
course, does not mean we have concluded our investigation of the
Fascist angle; as a matter of fact, we will have in the next 2 weeks
a number of other cases that will be ready to be developed.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT B. BARKER, INVESTIGATOR FOR THE
SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Whitley.' Will you state your full name for the record, please,
Mr. Barker?
Mr. Barker. Robert B. Barker.
Mr. Whitley. And what is your present employment?
Mr. Barker. Investigator for the Special Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities.
Mr. Whitley. Will you state for the record, Mr. Barker, your past
or previous experience along investigative lines?
Mr. Barker. I was employed in the Veterans' Administration for
approximately 10 years.
Mr. Whitley. As an investigator?
Mr. Barker. The last 3 years was an investigator, in the handling
of guardianship cases.
Mr. Whitley. Have you had any further experience along inves-
tigative lines?
Mr. Barker. T did some investigating for insurance companies and
banks after I resigned from the Veterans' Administration.
Mr. Whitley. Are you an attorney, Mr. Barker?
Mr. B \rker. Yes, sir; I am an attorney.
Mr. Whitley. A member of the bar?
Uy
truth.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4183
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Of what State?
Mr. Barker. Tennessee.
Mr. Whitley. How long. Mr. Barker, have you been engaged in
the investigation for this committee relating to "William Dudley
Pelley and his Silver Shirt organization?
Mr. Barker. Well, after the termination of the investigation in the
Gilbert-Campbell McWhirter ease. I proceeded to conduct the inves-
tigation of Mr. William Dudley Pelley, by instruction of the
chairman.
Mr. Whitley. And that investigation has been going on continu-
ously now for approximately how long?
Mr. Barker. Ninety days.
Mr. Whitley. Ninety days?
Air. Bvrker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, for the past 3 months you have
devoted your time exclusively to the investigation of Mr. Pelley and
his organization?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. During that period, Mr. Barker, during the course
of the investigation, where have you had occasion to conduct — at
what places have you had occasion to conduct your investigation ?
Mr. Barker. Windsor, Ontario, and Detroit, Mich. ; Boston, Mass. ;
New York City; Dover, Del.; Washington, D. C. ; Asheville, N. C. ;
Del Kio, Tex. ; and Villa Acuna, Coahuila, Mexico.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, you have actively and personally
conducted an investigation at all of those points with reference to
Mr. Pelley and his activities?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. Will you state for the record, Mr. Barker, what
your information is, what your investigation has developed con-
cerning the personal history, the background, of William Dudley
Pelley?
The Chairman. Right in that connection, Mr. Counsel, Mr. Pelley
sent me a book on August 15, 1939, entitled "The Door to Revela-
tion." which is a history of his life, and in this book I have had
occasion to mark a number of excerpts in which he gives the history
of the Silver Shirt organization, he gives his own activities, and
mentions that certain people offered him financial backing. I think
his book reveals, perhaps, everything about him that he would want
to testify about if he were here in person and, from time to time. I
think it would be in order to read into the record excerpts from
his own book, showing how he organized the Silver Shirts, how he
got money, to whom he appealed for help, and the full details
of his activities. And from admissions by him, he was trying to
organize a semimilitary organization and, if necessary, to resort to
force.
In other words, we have his own admissions here, like Deatherage
and others we have investigated, that he believes it was justifiable
to organize a military organization to resort to force if it became
necessary to resist this Communist threat.
And for the sake of the record, too, I think you ought to let the
record show that in his publications he has expressed admiration
4184 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
for Hitler, and for nazi-ism. I do not know whether you have those
publications. Do you have those publications there?
Mr. Whitley. I have here, Mr. Chairman, numerous excerpts from
Mr. Pelley's publications, and then a copy, a photostatic copy, of
the source from which he obtained the material, the particular ma-
terial which was included in his publications. That is, in this com-
parison there are numerous articles which he took directly from
Nazi propaganda publications.
The Chairman. You mean from World Service?
Mr. Whitley. And the various publications put out by the Nazis.
The Chairman. He took them without giving credit to the Nazi
government ?
Mr. Whitley. That is right ; he took them and included them in
his publication as if they were written by him, or as if they were
original with him.
The Chairman. May I suggest this: I do not know whether the
committee wants to take the time to read into the record all of these
different excerpts, and we could just authorize the counsel, at this
point, to lay his predicate for our investigation, and insert in the
record all of the excerpts.
Mr. Mason. That would be the easiest way.
The Chairman. This is an investigation of Fascist and Nazi activi-
ties, and our purpose in going into this particular matter is that
here is a man who has gone on record as sympathetic with the Nazi
regime, and we want to show that in the beginning, to be followed by
detailed testimony.
Mr. Whitley. And insert it in the report ?
The Chairman. Yes; and, in addition, I think the statement ought
also to be made that Mr. Pelley's operations are on a Nation-wide
scale; that here you are not dealing with a small-time, small-town
fellow; that he is disseminating, you might say, tons of literature
throughout the United States. That will be developed, won't it ?
Mr. Whitley. That will be developed; and I will prepare for the
record and insert at this point a statement concerning this material
which he has taken directly from Nazi propaganda sources, and in-
clude in the record copies of that material, together with copies of
his publications and copies of the sources from which he took it. Is
that correct, sir?
The Chairman. That is all right. Let us proceed.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, do you want Mr. Barker to give any
of Pelley's personal history at this time?
The Chairman. Yes; I think, briefly, let us get some of Mr. Pel-
ley's personal history, as found by the investigator.
Mr. Whitley. Will you state, Mr. Barker, briefly, what you found
with reference to Mr. Pelley's background and past operations and
activities?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. Mr. Pelley's personal history, as I have
found it is listed in Who's AVho in America, and from his own pub-
lications. The earlier editions of Who's Who in America give his
birth as March 12, 1885, but later editions give it as 1890. He was
born at Lynn, Mass.; educated in the public schools; editor and
publisher of Philosopher Magazine, Fulton, N. Y., 1909; treasurer
and manager of the Pelley Tissue Corporation, at Springfield, Mass.,
1909-12; editor and publisher of the Chicopee (Mass.) Journal, 1913;
k from
is com-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4185
Wilmington (Vt.) Times, 1914; St. Johnsbury Caledonian, 1917-20;
president of General News, New 5Tork, since L923; with [nternational
Y. M. C. A. in Siberia, L917 L8; editor Liberation Magazine
(weekly) ; chairman of Foundation for Christian Economics, Ashe-
ville, N. C; founder of the Silver Legion of America, 11)33; the
Christian Party, 1935; Republican; Protestant: author of the follow-
ing books: The Greater Glory, L919; The Fog, L921; Drag, L924;
Golden Rubbish, 1929; (brochures) Seven Minutes in Eternity, i!)--,<.>.
The Chairman. Right there, on that Seven Minutes in Eternity, he
related his experiences. lie claims that he died and went to Heaven
and spent 7 minutes there; is that it?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. That happened out in Pasadena, Calif.
Mr. Thomas. What was the date of that one, when he went to
Heaven ?
Mr. Barker. 1929. Other books are: The Trend is Upward, 1930;
The Blue Lamp, 1931; No More Hunger, 1933; Nations-in-Law, 1935;
Behold Life ; and Thinking Alive.
The Chairman. Right there, while you are reading what he wrote :
In chapter 16 of his book he says that :
Nobody ever remembers who writes a magazine story. The story may be
recalled, but its author remains a name.
Two hundred and twenty published narratives — fiction enough to fill 30 vol-
umes of the ordinary novel length — was my record in the period when I made
my living by popular writing.
I had mastered my craft and knew it. There were four different textbooks
on the American short story containing specimens of my work, acclaimed as
examples of dramatic construction so perfect that college students must analyze
them as part of their courses in English.
So, in addition to his other writings, at one time he was a writer of
fiction and, as he said, wrote approximately 30 volumes.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Barker. A list of his copyrights, in addition to the books just
named, contains Program of Services for the Forty-second Assembly
of the League for Liberation, published by the Century Publishing
Co., copyright 1932; Bright Trails, copyrighted in 1938. There are
of then six issues of the New Liberator, copyrighted from 1930 to 1931.
Reality was copyrighted in 1938.
The Chairman. There is no use to read them all. In other words,
give a summary of approximately how many works he is responsible
for, that he has written.
Mr. Barker. Well, he says in his own publication they are 19 feet
high.
The Chairman. He is a very prolific writer?
Mr. Barker. Oh, yes ; he is a very prolific writer.
The Chairman. Now, he seems to have some sort of complex about
his origin. I notice on page 37 of his book, if I may read there, so as
to described him briefly, he said :
* * * Weird as it may sound to those hearing this sort of thing for the
first time, I have the same adamant conviction that we actually choose our
parents of our own free will, before entering life as infants. We know in
advance, before we are physically born, I say, what the factors and trends in a
given life will be by selecting certain parents. The choice is our own. * * *
And then over here I notice this on page 8. He says :
* * * Searching my memory honestly as I write these lines, it seems that
in those far-off years I was quite as old a person as I feel myself to be at
4186 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
present. There were two souls of me inside — that was how it was ! One knew
all things. The other asked questions.
That is along the metaphysical line?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In other words, he had an idea he had been born
two or three times; that he has existed in the world for a long
time.
Mr. Mason. Did you say "metaphysical line"?
The Chairman. Yes. He said this in his own writings. The only
reason for reading this is to show this man, according to his works,
has an idea he is a son of destiny ; that he has been long ago selected
for the task of doing something — I don't know what it is. That is
from his own works. Proceed.
Mr. Barker. Pelley was an author and writer and a publisher. He
sold some of his fiction to the First National Pictures in Hollywood,
and he was also in the real-estate business out in California in 1927,
1928, 1929. He was president of the Pelley Co., and he was also presi-
dent of the Brief Meal Corporation, a restaurant chain.
Mr. Whitley. Where was that, Mr. Barker ?
Mr. Barklr. Out in Pasadena, Calif.
Mr. Voorhis. Was that at the same time he spent the 7 minutes
in the other world ?
Mr. Barker. I think about the time Brief Meal Corporation folded
up he had that trance, or whatever it was.
Mr. Voorhis. I thought maybe it was California real estate that
had something to do with it.
Mr. Barker. He came to New York in 1930 and he turned spiritual-
ist and began the writing of psychic and metaphysical spiritualistic
writings, lectures, and teachings, and a considerable number of people
flocked to him. And on February 7, 1931, he incorporated the
Galahad Press in the State of New York with himself and M. J.
Benner and Olive E. Robbins as incorporators. The two women
were clerks in Pelley's office. One hundred shares of common stock
was issued. Pelley got 34 shares and each of the women got 33
shares each.
The office of the Galahad Press was located at No. 11 Forty-second
Street, in subrented office space. Outside concerns did the printing
for Pelley. The Friebelle Press of New York did $1,500 worth;
Abraham Neerow, of the Neerow Press, did $3,300 worth of printing,
and the Model Printing Co., of Washington, D. C, did $1,939 worth
of printing.
Mr. Whitley. That is for the Galahad Press?
Mr. Barker. For the Galahad Press.
Mr. Whitley. How long was that organization in existence, Mr.
Barker?
Mr. Barker. The Galahad Press?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. From February 7, 1931, until May 1, 1934, when it
was adjudged bankrupt in the District Court for the United States
for the Western District of North Carolina, at Asheville.
Mr. Wttttley. Have you any further information with reference
to the activities of Mr. Pelley while identified with the Galahad
Press ?
■ born
Ioup
ohit
k
ON AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4187
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir: there is considerable. The Galahad Press
issued 13 — they sold $13,175.42 worth of preferred stock to some 15
people in various cities. Ten of those 15 people were women. Some
of them were very prominent and well to do.
Mr. Whitley. What was the authorized capital stock of the Gala-
had Publishers. Inc.?
Mr. Barker. I don't have a certified copy of the articles of in-
corporation, but I presume it was $25,000, since Pelley mentioned
they still had $12,500 worth of stock that they had not issued..
Mr. Whitley. I see. Will you continue?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. Pelley's publishing house at that time was
supposed to be a religious publishing house and he was engaged
in making lectures and psychic writings and spiritualism. His
salary was $100 a week.
Mr. Whitley. That is, paid him by the Galahad Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. By the corporation?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. Now there was a lady in Newark, N. J., a
Mrs. Marie Ogden, who was the president, or rather the past presi-
dent of the Contemporary Club in Newark and she got very much
interested in Mr. Pelley and his work and, according to Pelley,
Alfred McGrath, a clerk in his office, asked Mrs. Ogden, who was
the widow of an official of the Prudential Insurance Co., to help
Mr. Pelley out financially, and she turned over $14,000 worth of
bonds of the Empire Realty Corporation, secured by first mortgage
on real estate at Deal, N. J. Some difficulty arose between them
and she got one $2,000 bond back. McGrath got a $1,000 bond as
commission for handling the transaction.
Mr. Whitley. This was all during the period 1931 to 1934?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. While Pelley was operating the Galahad Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. The Galahad Press was incorporated in New York*.
Did he actually carry on his activities in connection with that press
in New York, or elsewhere?
Mr. Barker. Well, I am coming to that just in a moment.
Mr. Whitley. All right.
Mr. Barker. The other bonds, amounting to $12,000, according to
Pelley, were placed in the office safe. Pelley further stated that Abra-
ham Meerow wanted to come into the business with him and that he
declined.
The Chairman. How do you spell Meerow's name ?
Mr. Barker. M-e-e-r-o-w; that Meerow then, in his absence, in
Pelley's absence, sent one Ault to call at Pelley's office and persuade
Miss Benner to give Ault the bonds. Ault disappeared down the ele-
vator with the bonds. Pelley or Miss Ogden brought suit to recover
the bonds, which finally resulted in the bonds being sold to pay an
unsatisfied bill of Meerow against Pelley.
The bank account of the Galahad Press Co. was in the Mercantile
Bank & Trust Co., 1600 Broadway. That bank was taken over for
liquidation by the superintendent of banks of the State of New York
on April 12, 1933. I do not have the bank account at present, but
it will be here shortly.
4188 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman-. The ledger sheets?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. Pelley came down to Washington after this
litigation with Meerow. He removed the Galahad Press from New
York to Washington in October 1931, and established headquarters
at 1019 loth Street NW. The two women, though, apparently re-
mained in New York until June 2, 1932, when they severed their
connections with Pelley. Pelley opened a bank account with the
Franklin National Bank, Washington, D. C, on October 16, 1931, in
which he deposited $29,497.42 of funds belonging to the Galahad
Press, Inc.
The Chairman. Do you mean that he took $29,000 from the bank
account of the Galahad Press and deposited it in his own personal
bank account ?
Mr. Barker. No, sir; I cannot say that, He admitted that he de-
posited $29,000 of funds belonging to the Galahad Press in his per-
sonal bank account. Where he got the money from, I suppose it was
the current bank account of the Galahad Press, but I cannot say
whether it was withdrawn from the New York bank. Anyway, he
admitted he deposited $29,000 in his personal bank account, *
The Chairman. You have the ledger sheet?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. The statement of the account shows on
October 16, 1931, deDosited $1,000, and closed by withdrawal, by
check of August 1, 1932, in the amount of $48.64.
The Chairman. In whose name was this $29,000 deposited ?
Mr. Barker. In the name of William Dudley Pelley, Hamilton
Hotel, Washington, D. C.
The Chairman. In what bank?
Mr. Barker. In the Franklin National Bank, Washington, D. C.
That bank is in liquidation, and has been for some 6 years.
The Chairman. Thereafter, the Galahad Press went into bank-
ruptcy ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How lonjr after he deposited the $29,000 in his
personal account did the Galahad Press go into bankruptcy?
Mr. Barker. The Galahad Press became insolvent prior to the
bankruptcy for several months. The adjudication in bankruptcy
was May 1, 1934, in the Federal court, Asheville, N. C, and the
Galahad Press was insolvent in January 1932. Pelley, in the Federal
court at Asheville, N. C, in his testimonv admitted that he had
deposited this sum of money in his personal bank account. As shown
at page 169, of volume 5, of the Proceedings in the District Court of
the United States for the Western District of North Carolina, in the
Matter of the Galahad Press, Inc., in bankruptcy, examination of
officers, he was asked this question :
Question. Mr. Telley, I believe you did keep an account belonging to the Galahad
Press in your personal name for quite a period of time and received and paid
out large sums of money from it. didn't you?
Answer. I did not — wait a minute. I don't recognize what you are talking
about. Wait a minute: I want you to advise what account you are talking
about.
Question. Any account of funds belonging to the Galahad Press.
Answer. Yes; fully authenticated in the Franklin National Punk, Washington,
D. C. ; fully accounted for in the hooks in the company.
Question. You collected, deposited into that fund in your own name moneys
belonging to the corporation amounting to over .^25,000, didn't you'/
Answer. Not to my knowledge.
re.
their
ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4189
Question. What?
Answer. Nol to my knowledge al this moment, unless you can refresh my
memory ;is to whal you mean.
new Question. Didn't you deposil $27,809.62 [showing witness minute book]?
larteis Answer. Yes: 1 will answer the question that that was the amount of nion. T
transacted, apparently, by the Washington office prior to the League of the Lib-
eration taking up its headquarters activities in Washington, 1). C.
Question. Although the corporation was duly organized, you deposited and
checked out on your personal checks over $27,000 of money belonging to the cor-
poration, didn't you. and deposited in your personal account'.''
Answer. 1 will give an affirmative answer to that; with the qualification
that there were extenuating circumstances that I would like time to refer
to my own records, if. as. and when available out of impounding.
Question. Have you the checks showing what that money was spent for?
Answer. It is my recollection that they were turned over to the Galahad
Press at the time that the headquarters finally moved to Washington.
Question. Do you have any vouchers in your possession of any kind showing
What that money was spent for?
Answer. I don't know what records I have in my possession, due to the Im-
pounding of all documents by either the court or the Congress.
The Chairman. He deposited that money beginning in 1931?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And followed with deposits in 1932 ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In his book, on page 392, he says this :
So the remaining months of 1932 were lived. Roosevelt had been elected.
Money was growing tighter, still it did not affect us as it affected others. So
long as people had money, ours was the sort of material that they most desired
to read. The first item in Mrs. Leslie's prophecy had come true about the
"Nation-wide spiritual movement" * * * the second had materialized that
"in 2 years or thereabout you'll find yourself sitting with the heads of govern-
ment behind the Government in Washington" * * * but the third item, that
in 3 years or thereabout you'll find yourself at the head of a quasi-military order
pledged to protect Christian constitutionalism when it hangs by a thread,"
was still in the future. What could it encompass? Would the implied Great
Pyramid date of January 31, 1933. give me indication? We were watching
that date. The Pyramid had never failed.
It so happened that I was working late one night in my office at the east end
of the main college building when Marion Henderson, my secretary, came in
with the Asheville evening paper. I saw 8-column headlines. Curiously I
picked it up. The date was January 30. 1933. And screaming from the page
were the significant words "Adolf Hitler becomes German Chancellor." I
looked at the lines. I read them again. I sought to comprehend them. Some-
thing clicked in my brain. * * *
I laid the paper down. The prophecy heard that night in the Fifty-third
Street flat before going up to Mrs. Leslie's, was working.
'"Tomorrow," I announced, "we have the Silver Shirts."
Anderson scowled. Marion was puzzled. Cue of them demanded, "What do
you mean, Silver Shirts?"
"Let me alone tonight," I begged. "Tomorrow you'll know everything."
Later on he said he visited practically every State in the Union,
and he described in detail how he happened to go to Oklahoma at the
request of some prominent people who wanted him to enter the politi-
cal picture. Then he went to California. Now. you say that he had
$29,000 in his personal account.
Mr. Barker. Here are some checks that were drawn on the Frank-
lin National Bank. There are checks paid to the Washington Hotel,
the Model Printing Co.
The Chairman (interposing). You have the original checks?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The canceled checks?
4190 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir. There were checks drawn to the Hotel
Hamilton, to Kobert Summerville, an employee of Pelley's, and some
were payable to cash. There are some small items here. The signa-
ture card for that account was in the name of William Dudley Pelley,
publisher, Hotel Hamilton; office address, 1019 Fifteenth Street.
Pelley had another bank account in Washington.
The Chairman. At that time?
Mr. Barker. A little later than that, but during the period the
Galahad Press was still operating. That account was with the Lib-
erty National Bank. That account was opened December 20, 1933,
in the name of the Liberation News Bureau, William Dudley Pelley,
304 Woodward Building. Harry F. Sieber was authorized to draw
on that account, and so was Paul A. Toal. That account amounted
to $3 653.10, and was closed August 2, 1934. The Galahad Press in-
curred some bills in Washington for printing and supplies. Charles
G. Stott Co., a Virginia corporation, and the Charles H. Potter Co.
were creditors of the Galahad Press.
The Chairman. Right in that connection, what was the indebted-
ness of the Galahad Press when it went into bankruptcy ?
Mr. Barker. $28 000.
The Chairman. So that if the $29,000 and the $3,600 had been kept
by the Galahad Press, it would have been a solvent corporation?
Mr. Barker. There was more money than that, and I will come to
that in a minute.
The Chairman. The point I am making is that, according to your
testimony, the diversion of funds from the Galahad Press to Pelley's
personal account brought about the bankruptcy of the Galahad Press.
Mr. Barker. That was one of the factors; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Barker. After this lawsuit with Meerow, Pelley had changed
his policy in his publications, and he began to attack the Jews very
viciously and violently in his publications. On February 25, 1932,
Pelley, Robert Summerville, a $30 clerk in his office, and M. H. Hans-
mann, a $10-per-week clerk in his office at Asheville, incorporated an
organization in North Carolina known as the Foundation for Chris-
tian Fconomics, and 100 shares of common stock were issued, 60 to
Pelley, 30 to Summerville, and 10 to Miss Hansmann. This Foun-
dation for Christian Economics was claimed by Pelley to be an
eleesmosynary institution, and was supposed to be a nonprofit organ-
ization, for the purpose of receiving contributions and alms, but the
bylaws contained a provision for the declaration of dividends to
stockholders. Now, on June 20, 1932, the two women, Mrs. Benner
and Miss Robbins, had severed their connection with Pelley. He
owed them some back salary at the time and, apparently, they had
filed a claim for it. Pelley had other people to come in and asso-
ciate themselves with him in the Galahad Press. On May 23. 1932,
Dr. H. M. Hardwicke, of Niagara Falls, N. Y., and Donald D. Kel-
logg, neither of whom was a stockholder in the Galahad Press, went
down to the register of deeds' office in the District of Columbia and
recorded on the 23d of May a chattel mortgage from the Galahad
Press to the Foundation for Christian Economics for the sum of
$6,000. Here is a certified copy of the original instrument.
The Chairman. Do you show what that $6,000 was supposed to
represent ? j
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4191
Mr. Barker. It was supposed to have been, according to the instru-
ment, paid by the Foundation for Christian Economics to the Gala-
had Press.
The Chairman. Is there any record of any deposit of money from
the Foundation for Christian Economics to the Galahad Press?
Mr. Barker. No, sir: the Foundation for Christian Economics did
pay some bills of the Galahad Press prior to and after that date, but
not to the extent of $6,000. So the Foundation for Christian Econom-
ics, according to Pelley, started off with assets of 34 shares of stock
that Pelley had in the Galahad Press, which was then insolvent, and
the $6,000 chattel mortgage from the Galahad Press to the Founda-
tion for Christian Economics. He also claimed that certain tuition
had been paid by students in the college at Asheville, N. C, known as
the Gallahad College, where a course in psychics and metaphysics was
said to have been taught in the summer of 1932.
Mr. Whitley. Is that a Pelley institution?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir. It is called the Galahad College.
Mr. Whitley. What was the connection between that school and
the Galahad Press?
Mr. Barker. There are so many of these things that I cannot trace
the connection of the Galahad College. It was apparently operated
on the same plan as all the rest of the Pelley companies.
Mr. Whitley. They used the same plan for the school that they
used for the press?
Mr. Barker. The school was the Galahad College, and the Press
was the Galahad Press, Inc. Now, Pelley said that the reason he
organized the Foundation for Christian Economics was that Mrs. Ben-
ner and also Miss Bobbins had gone to places unknown, and he was
unable to get in touch with them, and that certain critics of his works
had been trying to get in touch with those women and buy up their
stock; that they held 60 shares collectively of the stock of the Gala-
had Press ; that he consulted Herbert S. Ward, an attorney of Wash-
ington; Ward suggested the Galahad Press go into bankruptcy; that
he vigorously opposed any such suggestion, thinking all the time of
the preferred stockholders who had invested some $13,000 and cred-
itors who had advanced $20,000 for the Galahad Press.
Mr. Voorhis. Who were the preferred stockholders — was the lady
who gave their bonds one of them ?
Mr. Barker. No, sir ; she was not one of the preferred stockholders.
She was supposed to get a job from Pelley. She did not do it,
though, and she went to Newark and established a Truth Center in
her own home, and when her resources were depleted she moved out
in the desert to Moab. in Grand County, Utah. The Galahad Press
was moved to Asheville, N. C. in Juiy 1932. The Galahad Press
opened a bank account with the First National Bank & Trust Co.
of Asheville, N. C. on August 8, 1932, and that account continued
until October 31. 1932, when deposits ceased.
A total of $4,796.65 was deposited in the Galahad Press account
The signature card for the account was William Dudley Pelley,
president : D. I). Kelloerc:, treasurer.
The Foundation for Christian Economics opened up a bank account
on the same day. August 8. 1932. in Asheville. N. G, with the same
bank, the First National Bank & Trust Co., and that account con-
4192 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
tinned until March 4, 1933, the banking holiday, when it closed, and
in the account was deposited $18,190.61.
Mr. Thomas. Was that the balance when the bank closed, or was
that the total amount of deposits during that time?
Mr. Barker. That was the total amount deposited during that
time.
Mr. Thomas. Were there any particularly large deposits made in
there, or was that made up of a number of small deposits?
Mr. Barker. I think the largest deposits went into the special
account.
Mr. Thomas. What I am trying to get at is where all those deposits
came from, what kind of people did they come from?
Mr. Barker. They came from the publishing business that Pelley
was carrying on.
Mr. Thomas. They were the result of the business activities of the
publishing company ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. That was the corporation which later went into
bankruptcy ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Without going into details, tell us what happened
to the Galahad Corporation. It went into bankruptcy; is that right?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How much did the creditors lose? Did they get
anything out of it ?
Mr. Barker. The trustee in bankruptcy — Mr. Chairman, may I
continue on the bank business at this time? It will not take but a
moment.
The Chairman. All right, but tell us generally what happened
with all of these corporations, how his creditors have been fleeced,
and how funds have been diverted.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; the Foundation for Christian Economics had
a bank account at the same time that the account was running; at
the First National Bank, they had an account at the Wachovia Bank
& Trust Co. from 1932 to 1934, and the deposits in that account were
$63,176.36.
The Chairman. That was in the name of the foundation?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; that was the Foundation for Christian
Economics.
The Chairman. That was the corporation that was started on no
other foundation than the stock in the bankrupt or insolvent Galahad
Corporation, and the amount of money supposed to represent the
money advanced by the foundation to the Galahad Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; there was an important point that I over-
looked in regard to the fees of incorporation of the Foundation for
Christian Economics. The incorporation fees were paid to the Secre-
tary of State of the State of North Carolina by Galahad Press for the
incorporation of the Foundation for Christian Economics.
The Chairman. Then you had two corporations running simul-
taneously, one the Galahad Press corporation, which was insolvent,
and a new corporation, the Foundation for Christian Economics, and
one had a deposit of $63 000
Mr. Barker. And a deposit of $18,000.
The Chairman. Making a total of $81,000?
UN-AMERICAJN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4193
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. And the other had practically no deposits?
Mr. Barker. $4,700.
The Chairman. Then the Galahad Press was thrown into bank-
ruptcy, hut not the Foundation for Christian Economics?
Mr. Barker. Thev tried that, and I am coming to that in a moment.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Barker, I am trying to get straightened out as.
to where they got the $81,000. Does that respresent earnings from
the publishing company; that is, the Galahad Press, or did they get
some of the $81,000 from other sources?
Mi-. Barker. Mr. Thomas, the deposits in that account were so
numerous that it was impossible to check them. Most of the money
came from the publishing business.
Mr. Thomas. In other words, the earnings of the publishing com-
pany were transferred to the Foundation ?
Aii-. Barker. Yes, sir; the funds that were coming to the Galahad
Press, previously coming to the Galahad Press, were deposited in a
bank in New York and in a bank in Washington, D. C, and later in
the First National Bank of Asheville — those funds were diverted over
considerably to the Foundation for Christian Economics, and they
amounted to that amount over that period.
Mr. Whitley. The total amount of that diversion, Mr. Barker, was
$81,000, in round figures, in the two banks in Asheville, N. C ; that is,
the two bank accounts of the Foundation for Christian Economics?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Also the $29,000, in round figures, which was de-
posited to Pelley's personal account in the Washington bank ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That also constituted a diversion of funds from the
Galahad Press into other accounts?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir ; it would appear from the testimony given by
Pelley's own employees and by Pelley himself in the bankruptcy
proceedings that such was the case.
The Chairman. So over $100,000 was not deposited to the account
of the Galahad Press, which was the corporation doing the publish-
ing business?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; the Galahad Press was supposed to be en-
gaged in the publication of Liberation, the magazine.
The Chairman. The Galahad Press was allowed to become insol-
vent and finally went into bankruptcy?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; the testimony of Pelley's bookkeeper in
the Federal court is here on the table, and this bookkeeper testified
that the books of the Galahad Press just stopped, that there was
nothing of record to show whatever became of the assets of the
Galahad Press.
Mr. Whitley. Were the books destroyed, or what happened to
them ?
Mr. Barker. I will come to that. He testified that they just quit,
and in that same ledger — I have the books right here — in that same
ledger the Foundation for Christian Economics opened up an ac-
count and they started doing business, but that the books did not
show what became of the assets of the Galahad Press.
4194 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. In other words, the ledger book they used for the
Galahad Press was used by the Foundation for Christian Economics ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; the same book.
The Chairman. It stopped with one corporation and began with
another corporatoion ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You may proceed.
Mr. Barker. Now, on January 14, 1934, Pelley was out in Cali-
fornia. Harry F. Sieber, who was a newspaper man, I think he is
with the Sun Publishing Co., of Akron, Ohio, or was, was with Pelley
then as secretary of the Foundation for Christian Economics. Sieber
did not have anything to do with the Galahad Press, although they
were all housed in the same building, with the same office, the same
•desks, the same typewriters, and the same books. Pelley sent Sieber a
telegram, reading as follows:
Ranger to be continued here with coming issue —
That is the Silver Ranger —
agree with you regarding Washington, but shall start east to fix in time for
February divorce hearing. You were all wrong concerning Weeks. Until here
whipping rapidly into shape. Delaware plan excellent. Suggest sample chart.
Immediately clean records clean.
The Chairman. What date was that?
Mr. Barker. January 11, 1934.
The Chairman. It says, "Clean records clean" ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Of the Galahad Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That was sent by Pelley from California to his office
man?
Mr. Barker. It was sent to Sieber, the secretary of the foundation.
Mr. Whitley. In Asheville?
Mr. Barker. In Asheville.
Mr. Whitley. Will you identify the Silver Ranger?
Mr. Barker. That was a publication that the Silver Legion had
incorporated. That telegram was signed "Bill."
When they examined Pelley in the Federal court he admitted send-
ing the telegram, but he denied the last line, "clean records clean";
but here is what
Mr. Voorhis. He admitted he sent the telegram, but said he did not
send the last line?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Here is the examination of Summerville, who was manager of the
Gallahad Press, in the bankruptcy proceedings in the Federal court,
in volume 1, on page 29 :
Question. But all of the correspondence of the Foundation for Christian
Economics, prior to January 1934, have been destroyed?
Answer. Right.
Question. All the correspondence of the Silver League been destroyed?
Answer. Right.
Question. All of the correspondence of the League of Liberation been destroyed,
prior to 1984 V
Answer. Right.
Sieber, Kellogg, and Summerville carried all of the canceled checks
of the Galahad Press, all the correspondence and records, and some
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4195
of the books down to the furnace of the Woman's Club on Sunset
Drive in Asheville, where Pelley has his office Located, and burned
them. On March IT, 1934, the Silver Legion of America, Inc., was
incorporated in Delaware.
The Chairman. So they wound up the Galahad Press and they
wound up the foundation and destroyed the records, and then began
the Silver Legion?
Mr. Barker. No; the foundation continued, the hank account con-
lie is tinned under the name of the Foundation for Christian Economics.
i'itv The bank account for the Galahad Press had stopped in October
SiHier 1932, and this was in March 1934.
tliev They destroyed the records in January and they incorporated the
shop Silver League in Delaware on March 17, 1934, and the funds had
eber a already been diverted for several months, from October 1932, from
the Galahad Press to the Foundation for Christian Economics.
Three days after they incorporated the Silver League of Dela-
ware a lawsuit was filed by creditors of the Galahad Press, and that
was the beginning of the fall of Pelley. That lawsuit was filed by
Charles G. Stott & Co., of Washington,' D. C, before J. H. Bramlett,
a justice of the peace in Buncombe County, on a $111 unpaid bill.
Process was issued, and the case heard by default on March 30, 1934,
and judgment was entered for the plaintiff, and the judgment was
duly docketed on the record of the clerk of the Superior Court for
Buncombe County, N. C. Execution was issued and placed in the
hands of the deputy sheriff, who went out to the Woman's Club on
Sunset Parkway, in Asheville, to levy on the assets of Galahad Press
to get $111 and costs, but they told him there was not a scrap of paper
out there that belonged to the Galahad Press ; that the Galahad Press
was no more. So he made his return, nulla bona, on April 14, 1934,
and application was made to Judge Michael Schenck, in the Nine-
teenth judicial district of Asheville for the appointment of a receiver
for Galahad Press, and he appointed as receiver W. Bowen Hender-
son, a certified public accountant, and the receiver went out to see
what he could get from the Galahad Press, but he could not find
anything. He reported to the court that he could not find anything,
and thereupon the court impounded everything in the Woman's Club
that belonged to Pelley, and they sent the sheriff out there with a
truck, and he carted off everything they had and put it in the
courthouse.
On the 16th of April 1934 Sieber, who was the treasurer of the
Silver Shirt Legion of Delaware and one of the incorporators, rushed
out and established a bank account in the name of the Silver Shirt
Legion of America, Inc.
The Chairman. We have one phase of this thing. We do not want
to go too much in detail, but you have all the documentary proof.
From your investigation, from the facts you have been able to ascer-
tain, you find that Pelley diverted approximately $110,000 from the
Galahad Press to his own personal account and to the Foundation
for Christian Economics; that he brought about that diversion which
resulted in the insolvency, and finally the bankruptcy of the Galahad
Press ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. Indirectly.
The Chairman. And the loss to the creditors?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
4196 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Those who lost in the Galahad Press were not
only creditors to the extent of some $20,000, but also those who had
taken preferred stock?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Which amounted to about $13,000?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So there was a loss there to the preferred-stock
holders and the creditors of approximately $35,000 or $40,000?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. Do }tou want to go into the criminal case
against Pelley?
The Chairman. That criminal case grew out of this diversion ?
Mr. Barker. Indirectly it did.
The Chairman. Give that to us briefly.
Mr. Barker. It began with the bankruptcy proceedings. Summer-
ville, who was managing editor of Galahad Press, and Sieber, who
was the secretary of Foundation for Christian Economics, and also
in the Silver Legion, filed a petition in the Federal court at Ashe-
ville, N. C, on April 21, 1934. to adjudicate the Galahad Press bank-
rupt, and to that petition Kellogg, manager of the Galahad Press,
filed an answer admitting they were bankrupt, and the Federal judge
at Asheville signed a court order for the United States marshal to
seize the assets; so the marshal seized everything and took it up to
the courthouse.
The Chairman. What was it they had?
Mr. Barker. Records and property.
The Chairman. Records of what?
Mr. Barker. Correspondence, a mailing list, books of accounts, and
canceled checks.
The Chairman. Everything except what had been destroyed.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. What had been destroyed in the furnace in the
Woman's Club.
Air. Barker. Just what they said had been destroyed; that they
could not find.
Mr. Voor'iis. The records of the Galahad Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Was that the only organization whose records were
destroyed at that time?
Mr. Barker. That was the organization of which the certified
public accountant was receiver, and he said he could not make an
intelligent audit of the books of Galahad Press because some of the
books were missing.
After they got into [bankruptcy proceedings in Federal court
they took a lot of testimony from Kellogg. Summerville, Seiber, and
Pelley's bookkeeper.
Mr. Whitley. Who was PelWs bookkeeper?
Mr. Bvrkfr. Ward— H. H. Ward.
Mr. Whitley. Was he bookkeeper for the Galahad Press or for
(he Foundation for Christian Economics, or both?
Mr. Barker. No, sir; he had had a very late connection with Pelley,
and he had only been bookkeeper a very short time. They had a
bookkeeper prior to that time bv the name of George A. Anderson,
and Pellev claimed that Anderson had taken $4,000 worth of checks
that belonged to him and did not turn it in, and he fired Anderson.
rX-AMKIMCAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4197
The Chairman. Let us get to tin1 criminal action.
Mi-. Barker. Then Pelley, Summerville, and Kellogg were indicted,
and they tr< »t a lot of testimony from him before the referee in hank-
ruptcy. Of course, they could not claim a constitutional privilege at
that time because they had not been indicted, hut the indictment was
returned on May 23, 1934.
The Chairman. What did they indict them for?
Mr. Barker. They indicted them
Mr. Whitley. Was that a State court indictment?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; by the grand jury or the county of Bun-
combe, and here is a certified copy of the indictment against William
Dudley Pelley, Robert C. Summerville, and Donald Kellogg, and
later the indictment was amended to include Dr. Hardwicke, for
violation of the securities law, and it was in 16 counts.
The Chairman. What happened as a result? Did they try them?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; and it was a sensational trial.
The Chairman. Did they convict them?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. Hardwricke — at the close of the State's
evidence a motion for a directed verdict was allowed for him.
The Chairman. What about Pelley?
Mr. Barker. The counts against the remaining defendants — Pelley,
Summerville, and Kellogg — were nolled, except the first, second, and
seventh counts of the indictment.
The Chairman. What did they deal with ?
Mr. Barker. The first count dealt with the sale of securities in
North Carolina without first having registered as a dealer, that is,
the sale of stock.
The Chairman. What was the second?
Mr. Barker. The second pertained to Pelley's advertising in his
magazine, that is, that the Galahad Press was solvent, was a fine
business, and would be able to pay their June 1934 dividends,
whereas they were adjudicated bankrupt in May.
The Chairman. What was the next count ?
Mr. Barker. The seventh count was that they sold to Bertha
Allan, stock in the State of North Carolina, though she was not an
actual resident of North Carolina, in violation of the securities law,
without first being registered.
The Chairman. Was Pelley found guilty? What happened on
the three counts ?
Mr. Barker. At the close of the trial, which was held in 1935 at
a special term of court, the jury went out and returned a verdict
for Kellogg of not guilty, and for Summerville and Pelley not
guilty on the seventh count, but for Summerville and Pelley guilty
on the first and second counts of the indictment.
The Chairman. What happened; did the court sentence them?
Mr. Barker. He did, on February 18, 1935. Pelley was sentenced,
and the court said :
The judgement of the court is, as to both defendants, the judgment being
individual, that the defendant Pelley lie confined in Suite's prison at Raleigh,
at hard labor, for a period of not less than 1 year nor more than li years.
The foregi ing sentence of imprisonment is suspended for a period of 5 years,
on the following conditions :
1. That the defendant Pelley pay a fine of $1,000 and the costs of the case,
which bill of cost has been approved by the court as made up by the clerk, and
94931— 39— vol. 6 32
4198 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
which, under the authority of the court, is to include the total amount ordi-
narily for which the bill is made up by the clerk, together with the exact amount
which Buncombe County has heretofore paid out for the expenses of the official
court stenographer, it being the intent of the court to reimburse fully the county
for each amount expended by it.
2. That the defendant be and remain continuously of good behavior.
3. That he not publish and (or) distribute in the State of North Carolina any
periodical which has to do with, or contains in it, any statement relating to a
stock-sale transaction or any report of any corporation as to its financial value,
or with the purpose of effecting a sale of stock in said corporation, without
complying with the capital sales issues statute.
Judgment of the court is as to defendant Summerville, that he be confined
in the State's prison at Raleigh, at hard labor, for a period of not. less than 1
nor more than 2 years. The foregoing judgment of imprisonment is suspended
for a period of 5 years, on the following conditions :
1. That the defendant be and remain continuously of good behavior.
2. That he not publish and (or) distribute in the State of North Carolina any
periodical which has to do with, or contains in it, any statement relating to a
stock-sale transaction or any report of any corporation as to its financial value
with the purpcse of effecting a sale of stock in said corporation without com-
plying with the capital sales issue statute.
3. It appearing to the court that the costs of the whole case having been
assessed in the judgment heretofore entered against the defendant William
Dudley Pelley, there is no cost adjudged against the defendant Summerville.
On count No. 2, against the defendants Pelley and Summerville, prayer for
judgment continued for 5 years.
The Chairman. What was the date of that decision ?
Mr. Barker. February 18, 1935.
The Chairman. He was put on good behavior for 5 years after
that?
Mr. Barker. Yes; he is still on probation, and both Pelley and
Summerville come up for judgment on February 18, 1940, on the
second count of the indictment.
The Chairman. So, after diverting more than $100,000 and caus-
ing a complete loss to creditors and to preferred stockholders, the
only punishment meted out was a suspended sentence and a fine?
Mr. Barker. Under this indictment he was not indicted for di-
verting that money?
The Churman. I understand, but no other criminal action has
ever been taken against Pelley.
Mr. Barker. No, sir ; that is the only criminal action taken against
him in that regard. The judgment of the court as to Summerville
was that they gave him 1 to 2 years and put him on probation for 5
years, but since all of the costs had been assessed against Pelley
they did not assess any cost or any fine against Summerville. The
total fine and cost paid by Pelley was $1,719.50.
The Chairman. Was any criminal action taken against Pelley, out-
side of that growing out of bankruptcy, when they found he had
diverted funds amounting to $29,000 and he had destroyed his
records? So far no criminal action has been taken against him at
all?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. He was not prosecuted for violation of the Bank-
ruptcy Act?
Mr. Barker. No, sir. All evidence which could be used against
him had been destroyed.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Barker, did that judge who allowed Mr. Pelley
to go out on probation continue to hold his position as judge?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4199
ordj.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir: Judge Wilson Warlick, I think, is still on
the bench in North Carolina. They rotate the judges down then'.
The Chairman. I do not think Ave need <m into that.
Mr. Thomas. I wanted to find out whether the judge is still sitting,
the judge who let this man out on probation; I think it is of interest
to the committee to know whether he is still sitting.
Mr. Yooriiis. As I understand it. this question of the diversion of
funds, he was not tried on that at all, was he?
Mr. Barker. No, sir. The evidence in regard to the diversion of
funds was not admissible under the charges in this indictment. This
was a criminal case.
The Chairman. That was in the State court?
Mr. Barker. Yes: that was in the State court.
The Chairman. And the bankruptcy proceeding, of course, wTas in
the Federal court?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; they battled over that in the Federal court
until October 1935.
Mr. Whitley. What was the outcome of the bankruptcy pro-
ceeding ?
Mr. Barker. The Foundation for Christian Economics and the Sil-
ver Shrit Legion of Delaware objected to the jurisdiction of the Fed-
eral court in the bankruptcy proceedings. They claimed they were
not part of the Galahad Press ; that they were separate corporations,
and that the referee in bankruptcy had no right to adjudicate them
bankrupt because no claim was being made against them, and they
could only be adjudicated bankrupt by a plenary suit, and as such they
were entitled to a trial by jury. The Federal judge in North Carolina
decided that such was the case.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, that the only corporation involved
in the bankruptcy was the Galahad Press.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And that the Foundation for Christian Economics
and the Silver Legion were not included in the bankruptcy proceed-
ings, although the creditors tried to bring them in?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. The referee in bankruptcy held that they
were — well, he said that the employees were all in the same office,
used the same desks, the same chairs ; they had the same bank account,
and that they used everything indiscriminately, the same stationery.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, the referee's ruling was that there
was no difference so far as ownership and management was concerned
as between the three organizations.
Mr. Barker. Pelley was president of all three.
Mr. Whitley. And the referee treated them all as one organiza-
tion ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And his position was that the creditors of the Gala-
had Press were entitled to proceed against the assets of all three of
the organizations, but that ruling of the referee's was overruled by
the district judge?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. The Federal court held — well, that was a
kind of compromise. The referee said that their claim of separate
corporate entities was a mere fiction, and he brought them all in.
They excepted to that, and their attorneys appeared in court before
4200 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Judge Webb, and in a surprise move they just surrendered all right,
title, and interest to any of the property that had heretofore been
seized, except the files. They wanted the files.
The Chairman. How much was that property worth ? What was
its value? What was the final outcome of that?
Mr. Barker. About $300 worth of furniture.
The Chairman. They actually seized about $300 worth of assets?
Mr. Barker. And $900 in the' bank; $1,300 is about all they got.
The Chairman. To take care of about a $40,000 indebtedness, count-
ing the preferred stock?
Mr. Barker. Yes; $22,000 worth of bills, not counting that $6,000
fictitious mortgage.
The Chairman. Not counting the fictitious mortgage to the Foun-
dation of' Christion Economics, and not counting the preferred-stock
holders' $13,000 that they had invested ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So all they got out of it was about $1,300; and
the only punishment meted out to Mr. Pelley was a fine and being
put on probation for 5 years?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir ; that is in the State court.
Mr. Voorhis. With reference to the Galahad Press, that we are
discussing, who were those preferred-stock holders in the Galahad
Press?
Mr. Barker. Mr. Voorhis, I thought I had a list here.
Mr. Voorhis. I do not care about having their names. I want to
know what kind of people they were. Was that Pelley and a couple
of people in an office, or were they people who were interested?
Mr. Barker. The common-stock holders were Pelley and 2 women
in his office. The preferred-stock holders were 15 people, 10 of whom
were women, and some of them very prominent and well-to-do, and
interested in spiritualism and psychic matters.
Mr. Voorhis. They actually put up $13,000 for the Galahad Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir ; they bought the stock.
Mr. Voorhis. They bought the preferred stock?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Which they lost?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. And this other woman, she gave $14,000
worth of bonds and got one $2,000 bond back.
The Chairman. She did not even get any stock?
Mr. Barker. No; she did not get any stock.
The Chairman. That was Mrs. Ogden?
Mr. Barker. Mrs. Ogden; yes.
Mr. Whitley. Was that a loan or just a gift?
Mr. Barker. Well, I suppose it was a gift.
Mr. Whitley. She had no security?
Mr. Barker. No. There were no notes or security given for it; no
stock issued.
Mr. Whitley. So, as a result of his transactions and manipulations
witli corporations in the period between 1931 and 1934, Mr. Pelley
took in well over $100 000 and he settled up with his creditors and
preferred-stock holders for a sum total of approximately $1,300; that
is, as a result of the bankruptcy of the Galahad Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
ON-AMERICAN PROl'ACAXPA ACTIVITIES 4201
Mr. Whitley. And that is resume of the whole series of trans-
actions '.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Now. was the Galahad Press the only one of his
organizations at the time of the bankruptcy that was adjudicated a
bankrupt \
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. And the other two organizations continued as corpo-
rations; that is, the Silver Legion and the Foundation for Christian
Economics?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. And they are still in existence?
Mr. Barker. No, sir; the Foundation for Christian Economics had
their charter suspended on May 1, 1939, for failure to file a report with
the secretary of state of the State of North Carolina as provided by
section 801 of the Revenue Act of 1937. The certificate of incorpora-
tion has not been reinstated.
The Chairman. So that is the end of the foundation.
Mr. Barker. That is the end of the foundation; yes.
Mr. Whitley. So that the only survivor of those three organiza-
tions at the present time is the Silver Legion of America ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Which is a Delaware corporation?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Air. Whitley. Mr. Barker, in your testimony you read a telegram
that Pelley sent from California to his man at Asheville, Sieber?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Air. Whitley. In March 1934?
Mr. Barker. In January.
Mr. Whitley. January 1934?
Air. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley\ In that telegram he approves the Delaware idea.
Air. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Shortly afterward the Silver Legion of America was
incorporated in Delaware?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. In that telegram Mr. Pelley says, "Clean records
clean.'"
Air. Barker. Yes. sir. The Foundation for Christian Economics
paid the incorporation fees of the Silver Legion of America. The
Galahad Press paid the foundation, and the foundation paid the Silver
Legion.
Air. Whitley. The foundation was incorporated as a charitable and
eleemosvnary institution ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Just to serve the public for a worthy cause.
Air. Barker. They said here that the purpose was to establish, main-
tain, and conduct an institution for the purpose of teaching, dis-
tributing, and disseminating the doctrines of Christian economics and
related subjects.
Mr. Whitley. A nonprofit organization?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. But they had a provision in the bylaws for
a declaration of dividends.
4202 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Voorhis. I thought I understood you to say that the Galahad
Press paid the incorporation for the Foundation of Christian Eco-
nomics, is that right ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. It paid for both of them — for that and the Silver
Legion ?
Mr. Barker. No. The Galahad Press paid for the foundation.
Mr. Voorhis. And the foundation paid
Mr. Barker. The foundation paid for the Silver Legion.
Mr. Whitley. And shortly after the telegram stating "Clean rec-
ords clean" you testified that Pelley's staff — office force in Asheville —
did burn certain of the records relating particularly to the Galahad
Press.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. At the time of Pelley's examination before the referee,
in connection with his bankruptcy, did he contend that the Foundation
for Christian Economics and the Silver Legion of America were sepa-
rate, entirely separate, organizations; had nothing to do with the
Galahad Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. He contended, and successfully contended, that they
were entirely separate, and there was no connection between them?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That they should not be included any way in the
bankruptcy proceedings ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. The creditors appealed from that Federal
judge's decision to the United States Circuit Court of Appeals for
the Fourth Circuit, but they did not file a transcript of the record,
and the circuit court of appeals under their rules docketed the case,
heard it. and dismissed it at the cost of the appellee.
The Chairman. I think we have enough on the old, defunct cor-
poration to ^et the background. We come down now to the Silver
Legion and to his new corporations. Have you not covered most of
the material about the Galahad Press and the Foundation for Chris-
tian Economics?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir. But some of the questions that you had in
mind in regard to Pelley's diversion of these funds and the leniency
of the court down there in his sentence, and so forth — I might explain
something about that by telling the background of this prosecution,
who was after him. and so forth.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Barker, did Pellev. himself, testify at any of
these ti'ials or at any of the hearings? Did he personally testify?
Mr. Barker. In the Federal court, in the bankruptcy proceeding.
Pelley testified. A subpena was issued for him June 15, 1934, the day
he surrendered to the State on criminal charges, and he testified at
length in the bankruptcy suit. He claimed constitutional privilege
many times in the examination.
The Chairman. You mean that a numlber of times through the
examination in the Federal court he declined to answer on the ground
that it would incriminate him?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. The referee said — one of the attorneys for
the creditors said — that he thought the referee ought to advise Pelley
and all of these people of their constitutional rights, and the referee
said that he did not see any need of advising anybody who was
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4203
represented by counsel of their constitutional rights. So Pelley,
the testimony went along, his lawyer would object, and Pelley would
state that he refused to answer on the ground that his answer might
tend to incriminate him.
He testified at length in the Federal court : 1 mean in the superior
court in the criminal case. lie was represented by counsel. Robert
H. McNeil, of Washington, I). C, being one of his attorneys. There
were three other lawyers in the case, representing Pelley and his
codefendants.
Mr. Thomas. "Who were the other lawyers?
Mr. Barker. Judge Robert M. Wells, joe Ford, and J. Y. Jordan,
Jr. They represented Pelley and his codefendants.
The prosecution was represented by Zeb Nettles, solicitor for the
State, and two private lawyers. Bob Williams and Tom Harkins, who
had been retained by outside parties.
The Chairman. Let us leave the Galahad Press for the time being,
and the Christian Foundation, and go to the next phase.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Barker, following the developments which you
have just testified about, will you relate to the committee Pelley's sub-
sequent activity in carrying on the Silver Legion of America and the
new organization which he set up ?
Mr. Barker. After Pelley had settled with the State of North Caro-
lina on the criminal case, he resumed business.
Mr. Whitley. He resumed the business
Mr. Barker. Of publishing.
Mr. Whitley. Of the Silver Legion of America ?
Mr. Barker. No. He resumed his publishing business. On April
2, 1935, Pelley started another bank account. You see he closed out
everything on August 2, 1934. and withdrew all the money.
Mr. Whitley. Did he withdraw the Silver Legion account ?
Mr. Barker. I have that right here. The Silver Legion account
started April 16. 1934, and stopped on July 27. 1934. They only had
deposits of $2,739.45. '
Mr. Whitley. After the criminal case was disposed of and after the
bankruptcy proceeding was settled, he continued his publishing busi-
ness under what name ?
Mr. Barker. He had a man working for him named H. E. Martin,
and Pelley started his printing business again. Martin opened up an
account for Pelley in his name — H. E. Martin.
Mr. Whitley. In what bank?
Mr. Barker. First National Bank & Trust Co. at Asheville, N. C,
April 2. 1935.
Mr. Whitley. Does the account identify the account with Pelley in
any way ?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Just uses his own personal name as the depositor?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir. He continued that account until January
9. 1936, with total deposits of $2,642.25. Now. Mr. Parker, the
cashier of the First National Bank & Trust Co. said that he observed
H. E. Martin depositing in his personal bank account checks payable
to William Dudley Pelley, the Pelley Publishers, and so forth. They
caught him in the bank one day and told him the bank could not
allow that.
Mr. Whitley. Told Martin that?
4204 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. Told Martin that the bank would not permit him to
deposit Pelley's cheeks in his personal account.
Mr. Thomas. To whom did the cashier say that?
Mr. Barker. H. E. Martin.
Mr. Thomas. You said that the cashier said ■
Mr. Barker. He said that he told Martin he could not deposit
Mr. Thomas. To whom did he say that, to you?
Mr. Barker. He said that to me.
Mr. Thomas. He said it to you?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; that is, Mr. Charles D. Parker, the cashier
of the bank.
Mr. Voorhis. I do not quite understand. Martin deposited Mar-
tin's check to Pelley's accounts, or was he depositing Pelley's checks
to Martin's account ?
Mr. Bvrker. Pelley's checks to Martin's account.
Mr. Voorhis. Checks signed by Pelley, is that what you mean ?
Mr. Parker. No; checks payable to Pelley.
The Chairman. Pelley endorsed them and he took them to the
bank and put them into his account ?
Mr. Barker. Some of them Pelley did not endorse.
The Chairman. Some of them Pelley did not endorse?
Mr. Barker. That is correct.
The Chairman. How did he manage to do that?
Mr. Barker. He just put them all under his account.
Mr. Whitley. He endorses them.
Mr. Barker. Yes. So Martin went out and, on January 7, 1936,
came back to the bank with a statement from the Pelley Publishers
addressed to the First National Bank & Trust Co., at Asheville,
N. C, reading:
Gentlemen : As legal owner of the businesses listed below, I hereby authorize
ycu to enter for collection and credit to the account of Harry E. Martin, trustee,
paying out same on such signature, any checks, drafts, or other paper that is
payable to the order of Pelley Publishers, the Foundation Fellowship, Pelley's
AVeekly. M. Helen Pelley.
Sincerely yours,
M. Helen Pelley.
Now, M. Helen Pelley is Minnie Helen Hansmann, who married
Pelley July 24, 1034. at Asheville. The State was going to summon
her as a witness in the case against Pelley. She knew a whole lot
about the business. So when Pelley married her. the State was
estopped from using her as a witness because under the North Caro-
lina law a wife may not testify against her husband in a criminal
case.
Mr. Whitley. Was she a former employee of Pelley's?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. She formerly worked for him ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And in the criminal case, the State was going to
subpena her to testify against Pelley?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And so, after he married her, under the State law,
she could not appear as a witness?
Mr. Barker. The State was precluded from summoning her as a
witness for the prosecution.
r.VAMKKK'AX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4205
Mr. Whitley. With reference to the list of organizations named in
the letter which you just read, can you tell us anything about the
origin of them, whether they had been incorporated or whether they
were just names which were used by Pelley to carry on his business?
In other words, had Pelley set up new organizations or had be set up
any new corporation or had he just adopted these names that you
read a moment ago, such as Pelley Publishers?
Mr. Barker. The Pelley Publishers, so far as I can ascertain,
is not incorporated. That is the name of the building at Asheville,
X. C., where Pelley operates; the old Biltmore-Oteen Hank Building.
That is the name that appears on some of his literature, Pelley
Publishers. That is the name of the building.
Mr. Whitley. Upon receipt of that document which you just read,
did the bank then permit Martin to continue depositing checks made
payable to Pelley Publishers, and the other organizations, into
Martin's account ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. They started another account, a new ac-
count, H. E. Martin, trustee, for these organizations. And to that
account they transferred the balance from this account of H. E.
Martin, the' personal account, $370.35, transferred over to the new
account. That account was continued until September 1937, with
total deposits of $16,997.77.
Now. in September 1937, Pelley incorporated another organization
in North Carolina. This organization is the Skyland Press. The
incorporators were M. Helen Pelley, Alfred H. Talpey, and W. D.
Pelley. One hundred shares of capital stock was authorized, for
$100,000, and the corporation was to start business when $1,000 had
been subscribed. M. Helen Pelley subscribed for 8 shares; Talpey
subscribed for 1 share, and Pelley subscribed for 1 share. That
corporation is still a going concern. That is the Skyland Press, of
Asheville, N. C.
Mr. Whitley. Who are the officers of that corporation?
Mr. Barker. The officers are William Dudley Pelley, president;
M. Helen Pelley, secretary; and Alfred H. Talpey, treasurer.
Mr. Whitley. Is that the publishing company that is presently
doing publishing work for Pelley?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. AYhitley. In connection with his Silver Legion activities; and
is that the publishing company wdiich is putting out his weekly pub-
lication, Liberation?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Is that the only other corporation, so far as you
know, that Pelley has organized since his prosecution and since his
bankruptcy proceeding?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, at the present time, Pelley is the
president of two corporations?
Mr. Barker. That is right.
Mr. Whitley. The Silver Legion of America and the Skyland
Press ?
Mr. B \rker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. The Silver Legion of America incorporated in
Delaware and the Skyland Press in North Carolina?
4206 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And the other organization referred to there, the
Pelley Publishers, that is not incorporated, so far as you know?
Mr. Barker. No, sir; that is just a name.
Mr. Whitley. That is just a name which he uses to carry on
what type of activity — publishing?
Mr. Barker. Publishing.
Mr. Whitley. Or the Silver Legion, or both ?
Mr. Barker. Publishing.
Mr. Whitley. To carry on his publishing activities?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. Right at that point, Mr. Attorney, both the Skyland
Press and Pelley Publishers do a publishing business, as I under-
stand ?
Mr. Barker. The Skyland Press never appears in the public on
any of Pelley's publications. That is the name under which the
bank account is kept. Skyland Press is the name under which a
new bank account in another bank was started.
Mr. Thomas. And they do not do a publishing business?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; they do a publishing business.
Mr. Thomas. Then both the Skyland Press and Pelley Publish-
ers do a publishing business at the present time ?
Mr. Barker. Pelley Publishers do not do any publishing. The
name appears on the literature.
The Chairman. As I understand it, when Pelley bought this
brick building at Asheville, he bought it in the name of himself,
individually?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. W. D. Pelley?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is the building that houses the plant, the
publishing plant?
Mr. Barker. That is right.
The Chairman. There is no such thing as a corporation by the
name of William Pelley Publishers, Inc. ?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
The Chairman. But that name appears on his publications?
Mr. Barker. On the door of the building.
The Chairman. On the door of the building?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. But the corporation that really owns the plant,
the publishing plant, is the Skyland Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. It is the corporation in whose name the bank
account runs?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is that right?
Mr. Barker. That is right.
Mr. Voorhis. Does the Skyland Press own this plant?
Mr. Barker. The Skyland Press owns the equipment. The build-
ing belongs to Pelley personally. Now, Pelley's express shipments are
sent out under the name of Foundation Fellowship.
The Chairman. Is that a corporation?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
} on
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4207
The Chairman. That is just the name he uses, Foundation Fellow-
ship ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. It is just a cover-up name so that the literature or
his express shipments cannot be identified with him.
Mr. Barker. Well, I do not know what the purpose is, but that
is the way it appears.
The Chairman. William Pelley Publishers is merely a name that
he uses for the purpose of expressing the ownership of the building
itself.
Mr. Barker. I can give you the chronological order of all of them.
The Chairman. Very well, please do.
Mr. Barker. The organization is the Silver Shirt Legion of Amer-
ica, Inc. The business down there is Skyland Press, Inc. The build-
ing and the literature are Pelley Publishers. The bank account is
carried under the name of Skyland Press. The express shipments go
out under the name of Foundation Fellowships. The mail goes out
under the name of Little Visits. The magazine that is published is
Liberation.
Mr. Whitley. That is published by the Skyland Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Under what name does the mail go out?
Mr. Barker. Little Visits. Some of its goes out, Post Office Box
2630.
Mr. Whitley. Who are the officers of the various corporations?
Pelley is president of Skyland Press.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Who is the head of the Silver Legion ?
Mr. Barker. Pelley.
Mr. Whitley. Pelley is the president of the Silver Legion.
Mr. Barker. President or commander.
Mr. Whitley. Are there any officers of the Pelley Publishers?
Mr. Barker. Not that I know of.
Mr. Whitley. It is just a name?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Are there any officers in the Foundation Fellowship ?
Mr. Barker. Not that I know of.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, it is not an organization, it is just
a name?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. In order further to clarify this situation, Libera-
tion is printed as a weekly magazine?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know how many subscribers they have ?
Mr. Barker. No, sir ; I have no accurate way of knowing how many
subscribers it has, but they number in the thousands.
The Chairman. You checked with the post office?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you made an estimate of the number of issues
of Liberation sent out weekly?
Mr. Barker. He does not have a second-class mailing permit. He
mails his Liberation and other material, as a circular under P. L. R.
562 — that is. Postal Laws and Regulations. He mails that as a cir-
cular.
4208 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Does he send some by express ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; that is these booklets.
The Chairman. They are sent by express?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, let us get his Liberation ; you say that is one
of the magazines?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. And how many employees does he have in the
building where he now publishes the Liberation ?
Mr. Barker. Approximately 30.
The Chairman. Approximately 30 employees?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. What is his pay roll there as to that building?
Mr. Barker. Well, I haven't added that up; I have it right here
and can get it during the lunch hour.
The Chairman. Can you tell me approximately what it is now
and you can get it more accurately after lunch ?
Mr. Barker. It varies in the amounts.
The Chairman. You can fill that out later ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. Now, what sort of a building is it that houses this
equipment ; is it a brick building, a frame building, or what kind of
a building is it?
Mr Barker. It is a very good building. He bought that building
for $20,000 from the Carolina Realty Co. in Richmond, $500 down
price. It was formerly the Biltmore-Oteen Bank Building. It cost
$85,000 to build the building and put a vault in it.
Mr. Whitley. At the present time he has his own building and his
own printing equipment?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. Now, let me get some idea of the volume of Liber-
ation sent out.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman What else does he print ?
Mr. Barker. Well, he prints this kind of bulletins; attacking J.
Edgar Hoover ; President Roosevelt, and the Jews, and the Dies com-
mittee, and Secretary Ickes; and he has got a plan here for making
all the United States a commonwealth in which everybody gets $85
a month.
The Chairman. While there I think it would be well for us to get a
graphic picture of the extent that he is mailing out literature in the
United States ; do you think we ought to go into that ?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
The Chairman. You have made some investigation of that ; you
have been to the post office, have you ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. And you have had occasion to investigate into the
names and amounts of literature that he is mailing out?
Mr. Barker. This express shipment gives an index to that.
The Chairman. Will you give us the express shipments so we can
get some idea and the extent as to how many people get literature
and the amount thai he mails out every year.
Mr. Whitley. Does he send the literature to a great many?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4209
Mr. Barker. Yes; and recently the volume lias increased consider-
ably and he has cut the price on it.
Mr. Whttlet. What is the average price of the pamphlets which
he has published!1 Is it 15 cents, 20 cents, or 25 cents; just approxi-
mately the general average?
Mr. Barker. Ten cents, on General Moseley.
The Chairman. That would be favorable to General Moseley?
Mr. Barker. And 10 cents, the Dies committee.
Mr. Whitley. Is that favorable or unfavorable?
Mr. Barker. Yon mean unfavorable
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Well, he goes so far as to tell a witness how he should
conduct himself before the Dies committee.
Twenty-five cents on Secretary Ickes; and most of the attacks on
Jews, 25 cents each.
Mr. Whitley. Can you tell us the number of pamphlets that he is
sending out of this type ?
Mr. Barker. No. I have a list here of some of them.
Mr. Whitley. Just how many goes out; how many pamphlets he
put out in the last 2 }?ears. I do not mean the number of each kind,
but the total: how many different ones?
Mr. Barker. I have a list of them that I can give to yon if you
want it.
Mr. Whitley. Very well; continue with the shipments.
The Chairman. Give us the express shipments first; give us the
express shipments and where they go to, then what they are.
Mr. Barker. This is the Railway Express Agency; this shows a
record of the express shipments; in 1937, for 12 months, he shipped
1.022 shipments to the west coast; 57 shipments north of the Mason
and Dixon Line ; and 12 shipments south of the Mason and Dixon Line.
This contains the names and addresses.
The Chairman. Does it show the pounds, the total pounds?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. Give us some idea of the pounds.
Mr. Barker. The pounds come right after the next tabulation in
regard to shipments.
For the first 7 months of 1938 he shipped 1,154 shipments to the
west coast; 14 to the east coast ; a total of 1,168.
On July 31 the Southeastern Express, that was operating out of
Asheville.N. C, was consolidated with the Railway Express Agency,
and rates went up, and Pelley stopped shipping by express.
Mr. Whitley. That was this year?
Mr. Barker. 1938.
Mr. Whitley. 1938 ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. And how did he ship after that?
Mr. Barker. Parcel post.
Mr. Thomas. He shipped parcel post?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Now. here are the names of the principal people that got shipments
regularly :
S. H.Lobbe. Portland. Oreg.; in 1937 he got 79 pounds of Pelley 's
literature.
4210 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Of these little bulletins?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And pamphlets?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
In 1938 he got 393 pounds, and 1938, you see, was only 7 monthsT
because the rates were changed, and Pelley stopped shipping.
I. E. Crowe, of Spokane. Wash., got 200 pounds in 1937, and he got
336 pounds in 1938. for 7 month.
Mr. Whitley. That was to July 21?
Mr. Barker. Shipments ending July 31.
George Thieson, Centralia, Wash., got 168 pounds in 1937 and 29714
for the 7 months of 1938.
Mr. Whitley. Of these publications?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
D. O. Towney
Mr. Thomas. What name was that?
Mr. Barker. Townev, Grand Junction, Colo. ; he got 71 pounds in
1937; 133 pounds in 1938.
W. A. Lobbev, of Colorado Springs, Colo., got 59 pounds in 1937
and 189i/2 in 1938.
Stella Blake, Salt Lake City, 75 pounds in 1937 and 111 pounds in
1938
Dr. D. D. Clarke, Olympia, Wash., 26i/> pounds in 1937; 83i/2 in
1938.
Hans Diebel, Los Angeles, 731/2 pounds in 1938. He didn't get any
in 1937.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether or not Hans Diebel is con-
nected with the German-American Bund?
Mr. Barker. I understand that another investigator has connected
them up.
The Chairman. As I understand, the records show that Hans
Diebel is one of the officers of the bund on the west coast, operating a
newsstand on a bookstand.
Mr. Whitley. The Aryan bookstand.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. The Aryan bookstand?
Mr. Whitley. I believe it is.
The Chairman. How many did he get; do you know how many
Hans Diebel got ? He sells them, of course ?
Mr. Barker. As I just stated, he got 7Zy2 pounds.
The Chairman. 731/2 pounds?
Mr. Barker. In the 7 months.
The Chairman. In 7 months of 1938?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Have you any idea how many of those pamphlets it
takes to make a pound?
Mr. Barker. It takes about 12.
Mr. Whitley. About 12?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. It takes about 12 of them to make a pound \
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. This does not represent all he sends out ; he sends
out literature by other means?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4211
The Chairman. This was just what was sent out by express?
Mr. Barker. He gives a reduced price by volume; for instance, you
can get 1:2 of these [indicating] for a dollar. Here is one on Mrs.
Perkins for 15 cents; you can get 10 of them for $1 and 100 for $10.
The Chairman. All right, go ahead.
Mr. Barker. Here is another one he sells $4 a hundred; seven
fifty
The Chairman (continuing). Proceed.
Mr. Barker. W. E. Western, of Seattle, Wash., 76 pounds in 1937;
16S in 1938.
These are the names of some of the largest shippers that got a
considerable amount of these pamphlets. Do you want the names
of these people in the record (
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Before we get into that, from what you have already
testified, the largest shipments have gone to the States of Oregon,
California, Colorado, and Washington.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. I believe it is 12 o'clock. We will suspend now
until 1 : 15.
(Thereupon a recess was taken until 1:15 p. m. of the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
The committee met pursuant to taking of a recess at 1 : 15 p. m.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order, please.
In connection with the efforts to secure Mr. Pelley for this hearing
the Chair is advised that Mr. Pelley is just now undertaking to get
a Federal judge in North Carolina to issue a restraining order, re-
straining this committee from conducting these hearings with regard
to him and his organization.
You are going to read into the record at this time the various
efforts that were made to have him appear before the committee,
but let me ask Mr. Barker, before you do that one or two questions.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT B. BARKER — Continuing
Mr. Barker, did you undertake to find out where Mr. Pelley is?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. Over what period of time have you tried to locate
him?
Mr. Barker. About 10 days.
The Chairman. What did you do, what efforts did you make?
Mr. Thomas. What was the date of that; what time was this; the
last 10 days \
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. What did you do; how did you try to find him?
Mr. Barker. I tried to locate him through the telephone company
and through some sources of information I had in Asheville, N. C., as
to his whereabouts; but it seemed that he left Asheville, N. C., accord-
ing to his own publication, to go to Montana during the month of
August.
The Chairman. He was out there on some lecture work for some
Congressman \
4212 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. Yes ; lie was according to the information given me.
The Chairman. Anyway, you were unable to find anything about
him ?
Mr. Barker. No.
The Chairman. You contacted his force?
Mr. Barker. I received information this morning that he had
returned to Asheville.
The Chairman. That he had returned to Asheville?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. This morning?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. Now, before we go on with the hearings, the Chair
wants to surest that it might be advisable to have our attorney confer
with the Department of Justice with reference to Pelley, whether or
not Pelley is an agent of a foreign government who should register as
such.
Here we have in our possession his publications, in which publica-
tions he prints Nazi propaganda and the evidence within our posses-
sion shows indisputably that he receives propaganda from Germany,
0-nr] without crediting the source of that information prints it as his
own.
Under those conditions, where he acts as an agent of a foreign
government, takes propaganda from a foreign government and prints
it in a publication in the United States as his own, if that does not
constitute propaganda of a foreign government the Chair does not
know just what would constitute it, and I think it might be advisable
for the attorney to discuss that point and see if we can get an
interpretation of that law by the Attorney General of the United
States.
And also in connection with the testimony of Fritz Kuhn, in the
transcript, he was asked by the chairman if one of the purposes of
the organization, that is, the bund, was to bring that viewpoint to
the United States [reading] :
Mr. Kuhn. Well, I don't say it is. I said to enlighten the public. What you
read in the papers is wrong.
The Chairman. That is so the people may have the same viewpoint with
reference to the German Government that you have?
Mr. Kuhn. Yes.
That is an admission of Fritz Kuhn, in the record, that one of the
purposes of his organization was to convince the American people
to have the same viewpoint with reference to the German Govern-
ment that he, Fritz Kuhn, had.
And he further testified about his sympathies with the German
Government.
That brings up the question of whether or not an organization that
is undertaking to convince, to sell the American people on the view-
point of one of the governments abroad, and its policies, does not
come within the purview of this statute.
Certainly you would not have to prove the letters of appointment
of an agent; you can show it by circumstantial evidence; if you had
to prove it by letters of appointment, on documentary authority, it
could never be proved unless the man volunteered the admission.
Here we have an organization, here is Pelley printing Nazi propa-
ganda; and here we have Fritz Kuhn admitting, under oath, that
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4213
one of the purposes of his organization is to do just whal was said,
and ii just occurred to the Chair that it might facilitate the hearings
in the future if we could get an interpretation of the statute from
the Attorney Genera] to find out whether these individuals and or-
ganizations cannot be required to register under the act, where they
are doing thi-^ sort of tiling and if the act does not take care of that
sort of thing it is of no value. If it Lacks some amendment then we
ought to be advised as to what can be done to change this law so
that anybody in the United States who is spreading Nazi literature,
or who is carrying on propaganda throughout the United States, can
be brought within the purview of the statute and be compelled to
register and disclose the fact of their relationship with the foreign
government. I suggest that the attorney confer with the Attorney
General and see if it is poss:ble to get a written opinion, interpreting
the statute, and advising the committee just what more is needed
to be shown with reference to Communists, Nazi, and other foreign
organizations.
It seems to me this matter has now reached a point where some
forceful, effective steps should be taken against such organizations.
As a committee, of course, it is not within our scope to take such
action ; we can request and recommend, to other agencies of the gov-
ernment. With all this testimony piling up, and all the evidence we
have got in the record on the Communist Party, the bund, and certain
front organizations, I think this matter should be taken up ; that
some definite showdown should be had and that we ought to get some
action against these organizations.
If it is agreeable to the committee, we will request the attorney
to secure some written opinion on this point from the Attorney
■General.
Mr. "Whitley. As to what constitutes a violation of the act?
The Chairman. As to whether evidence which shows that an
organization is deliberately spreading propaganda, derived from
foreign sources, in many instances using the same language that ap-
pears in the admitted propaganda publications of foreign govern-
ments, without crediting its origin, whether it comes from Germany
or the World Service, or some other source, they incorporate it in
their publication as their own language. Now, if that does not con-
stitute a man a propagandist, or an organization a propagandist,
then of course the statute is of no value insofar as our effectively
dealing with such a condition. If the statute is not sufficient to meet
it, then we should be able to recommend its amendment that our
people can be protected against acts of certain men and organiza-
tions. There ought to be some way by which the American people
can be protected against such racketeers.
Just to continue to disclose these facts with no action being taken
.seems to put the Government in a rather unfavorable light.
That is my own personal view about it.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Yes, Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Thomas. I would like to bring up another point along that line.
It seems to me that we should be a little more drastic, a little more
hard-boiled or cold blooded, about getting this man Pelley before our
committee.
94931—39 — vol. 6 33
4214 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Our investigator has probably clone a very good job in trying to
locate him, but I think that we ought to call upon the police officials in
the State of North Carolina and in the city of Asheville and ask them
to aid and assist us in locating this man Pelley, and to issue a subpena
through them, in order to bring him here at any hour or any day that
we see fit.
I do not see any reason in the world why Mr. Pellej- should not be
here, inasmuch as it has been shown he was in Washington and appar-
ently went through Washington on his way to he!}) someone out in
Montana.
I think we should do everything possible we can, leave no stone
unturned, until we get this man Pelley bsfore our committee.
The Chairman. Of course, the records show that every effort was
made to give this man a hearing; that the committee has gone to
considerable effort to confront him with this evidence.
He published pamphlets advising other witnesses how they should
conduct themselves before the committee, and the natural assumption
is that he would be here, since he advised other witnesses how they
should act; that he would come here and practice his own teaching.
But evidently he lias not shown his willingness to do so.
Now. the question is whether, after we have disclosed the evidence
we have before us, we want to hear him. That is a matter for the
committee to consider further.
Mr. Thomas. I am in favor of hearing him; I am in favor of getting
him as soon as we can: and, if necessary, to call on the police in North
Carolina to help us get him here.
The Chairman. Suppose you read into the record the efforts that
have been made by the committee to locate him, Mr. Whitley.
Mr. Whitley. Previous to reading the telegrams and correspond-
ence, Mr. Chairman, in reference to the investigators' efforts to get
Mr.- Pelley here and to locate him, I would like to direct attention to
the fact that Mr. Pelley's organization, when he is absent from from
Asheville, certainly knows where he is at all times.
Under date of August 19, 1939, this telegram was addressed to
William Dudley Pelley, Xo. 5 Lodge Street, Asheville, N. C. :
This is to advise you that the Special Committee or. Un-American Activities
has today issue:! a subpena calling for your presence as a witness at hearing
Id a. m. August 23, room 531, Old House Budding, Washington, I>. C. Please
advise Whether you will accept service upon arrival here or whether it will be
necessary to personally serve subpena before you will proceed to Washington.
The usual transportation expenses and witness fees will be paid.
That was on August 19.
On August 21 a special -delivery, registered letter was addressed to
William Dudley Pelley. of the same address at Asheville, X. C, the
only address we have of him, which reads:
Deab Sir: [Jnder date of August 19, L989, the following telegram was addressed
to you at the above address.
And then the above telegram is quoted in the letter.
The Western Union Telegraph Co. 1ms advised that you are not in Asheville.
I assume, however, that your employees in Asheville have forwarded to you the
conl cuts of the telegram.
Tbis letter is by way of further advising you that your presence as a witness
is desired at the above-stated time and place, and it is requested that you tele-
graph me immediately whether you will be present.
I N-AMERICAM PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4215
That was soul registered mail and was not returned, so was evi-
dently accepted by some employee of his staff in his absence.
Then, under date of August 23, the following telegram was sent to
Mr. Pelley, Asheville, X. ('.. with instructions to the telegraph com-
pany to forward to any address where he may be in the United Spates:
I have previously telegraphed and written to you advising (hat you would be
afforded the opportunity of appearing for this committee as a witness and re-
quested thai you inform me whether you will appear voluntarily. I have had
no response to my previous communications on behalf of the committee, and it is
again requested that you let me know immediately whether you intend to appear
without tirsl being served with a subpena.
1 mighi say that I have had no response of any kind from Mr.
Pe'lev or from any member of his organization.
Under date of August 24, it);;:). I sent the following registered letter
to .Mr. Robert C. Summerville, National Headquarters, Silver Legion
of America. No. 5 Lodge Street, Asheville, N. C. Mr. Summerville
is one of Mr. Pelley's right-hand men and office managers in Ashe-
ville. and he is one of the men who were indicted with him, as testified
this morning. [Reading:]
Deak Sib : I have previously sent a telegram and a registered letter to Mr.
William Dudley Pelley. advising him that his presence is desired as a witness
before this committee and requesting that he inform me whather he will accept
service of subpena upon his arrival in Washington, or whether it will be neces-
sary to secure service before he will proceed to Washington. I also advised
Mr. Pelley that the usual transportation expenses and witness fees would be
paid to him.
I did not want him to be able to say that he would have to pay his
own expenses. [Continuing:]
It is my understanding that Mr. Pelley has in the past indicated his desire to
appear before this committee as a witness, and the committee wants to afford
him the opportunity to present testimony regarding the organizations he is affil-
iated with and his activities. In spite of Mr. Pulley's previously expressed
desire to he heard by this committee, it would appear that he has now changed
his mind and is attempting to avoid testifying.
In the event Mr. Peiley is absent from Asheville. it is requested that you
advise him immediately concerning the substance of this letter and my previous
communications, and ir is again requested that he let me know what he intends
to do.
That was sent special registered. The letter was not returned,
which shows that it was received, and I still have not received any
response of any kind from Mr. Pelley or from any member of his
organization.
The Chairman. Of course. Mr. Pelley by his action in seeking to
restrain this committee from getting in touch with him, indicates that
he does not want to present any evidence with respect to his activities.
Mr. Whitley. That is true.
Mr. Thomas. I think that we have been very courteous and gentle-
manly to this prospective witness. He has been asked to appear vol-
untarily, and the time has now come to carry out our idea about a
subpena and to issue that subpena just as soon as we possibly can.
The Chairman. Let us proceed now.
Mr. Mason. Could not the State justices get this man and brino-
him before us?
Mr. Thomas. The police officials of North Carolina would be per-
fectly willing to cooperate, I should think. In other words, we should
not handle these fellows with kid gloves.
4216 UN-AMERICA** PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Of course, the committee's idea with reference to
some of these people is simply this, in asking them to appear, to give
them an opportunity to explain certain evidence that we have gathered.
From the standpoint of trying to learn anything from them. I do
not think the committee will ever got anything from any of them,
because, in the first place, they are not going to come here and testify
truthfully. That has been the experience we have had up to this
date. From the standpoint of having them here and expecting to get
anything out of them, . I doubt seriously if we get anything out of
them.
Well, let us proceed now.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Barker, will you continue with your testimony
concerning the express shipments?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. This is concerning large shipments in single
bundles of this literature as shown by Mr. Pelley's express records.
Mr. Whitley. Just a minute;- let me interrupt, Mr. Barker. I do
not know whether you have made it clear that Mr. Pelley only used
express shipments where there was a large amount of this literature.
Mr. Barker. That is right.
Mr. AViiitley. That is, it was a large quantity, possibly containing
hundreds of pamphlets, because from the weights you have given
(here it would certainly indicate that. If it was sent out solely as
single pamphlets, how would it go?
Mr. Barker. By mail.
Mr. Whitley. So it is only large bundles that are covered in your
record of express shipments ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Let us have your record of these express shipments.
Mr. Barker (reading) :
Wa'ter Larsen, Portland. Oreg., 17 pounds.
J. M. Sloan, Oakland. Calif., 75 pounds.
Buthell Jones, Pitt, M:nn., 35 pounds.
T. Sharp. San Diego, 25 pounds.
W. H Woods McAUen. Tex., 45 pounds.
Hugo Eger, Chicago, 88 pounds.
The Chairman. Who is Hugo Eger?
Mr. Barker. Ho is Hie secretary of the German-American Bund,
as I understand, in Chicago.
E. A. Towner, Portland, Oreg., 24 pounds.
Roy Za chary, Spokane, 40 pounds.
The Chairman. Who is Roy Zachary?
Mr. Barker. Roy Zachary is the field marshal of the Silver Legion.
Paul Schavinski, Spokane, 20 pounds.
Robert Mulholland, Warren, Ohio. 22 pounds.
Ernest F. Elmhurst, New Yo~k City, S4 pounds.
Conrad Evk'>rson, Lansing. Mich., 70 pounds.
George Datherage. St. Albans. W. Va., 2t> pounds.
W. G. Wboster, Minneapolis, Minn.. 1".f) pounds.
Charles B. Spakr, Missoula, Mont., 160 pounds.
Now you want to know something about PellovV publications, as
to what he was sending these people?
Mr. Whitley. Yes. You have the total figure for the poundage
sent out during the period covered by these records?
Mr. Barker. It is being added right now.
Dn-american propaganda activities 4217
Mr, Whitley. What period was that figure for. again, Mr. Barker?
Mr. Barker. That was for the entire year of VX\7 and up until
July 1. L938, or 19 months.
Mr. Whitley. Now. will you explain what those shipments con-
sisted of '.
The Chairman. Right in that connection, so that the record may
have it, in Mr. Pelley's publication, Liberation, under date of July 28,
1938, Mr. Pelley said:
It is a fact which posterity will attest that Chief Pelley of the Silver Shirts was
the Erst man in the United States to step out openly and support Adolf Hitler and
his German Nazi program. Hitler became German Chancellor on the 31st of Jan-
uary 1933. This publication appeared on the 18th of the ensuing February,
openly and unashamedly endorsing Hitler and his program against the German
Jewish "reds."
T want the record to show that.
Go ahead.
Mr. Whitley. Can you explain the nature of the contents of these
numerous shipments, Mr. Barker?
Mr. Barker. I have one of these literature order blanks here which
lists some of his publications :
Liberation Weekly, Reality Monthly, The Hidden Empire, What Every Con-
gressman Should Know, Forty-five Questions About the Jews, Speech of Major
General Moseley, Jews Say So, Door to Relevation, Nations in Law, The World
Hoax. My Seven Minutes in Eternity, Galahad Lectures, Liberation Scripts,
Editorials by Pelley. Suppressed Speech of General Moseley Before the Dies
Committee, The Dies Committee, No More Hunger.
Mr. Whitley. Those are the titles of some of the pamphlets that
he has published?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now7, if it will not interrupt the chain there, what
is your estimate of the total number of pieces of literature, pamphlets,
and so forth, that he sends out every year, based, upon your investi-
gation ?
Mr. Barker. I made careful inquiry in regard to that, and did some
calculating. The Superintendent of Mails of the Asheville Post Office
stated that Pelley would drop into their post office there at one time
as high as fifteen to eighteen thousand pieces of mail, and adding that
to his express shipments and parcel-post shipments, his daily average
of receipt of mail, both incoming and outgoing, and the amount of
deposits that he makes in the bank, I would say that a conservative
estimate would put it around a million pieces a year.
Mr. Whitley. That is the literature which he sends out and which
he sells?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Which he sends out of Asheville?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir. That is literature, first-class mail, parcel
post, and express, all combined.
Mr. Whitley. Yes. Xow, you will give us that total poundage
later \
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; just in a moment.
Mr. Whitley. Can you indicate, Mr. Barker, the total number of
pamphlets that he has published in the last several years; I mean by
the different titles that he has put pamphlets out under? You read
some of them just a moment ago for the record. Can you state what
the total number is?
4218 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. He has bought some literature for distribu-
tion, and he has had some other printing concerns do some printing
for him, and he has printed a considerable amount himself of these
pamphlets and booklets here, which he sent out. I would say that an
estimate of around 60 different books and publications, would be about
right.
Mr. Whitley. That he has either printed himself or has had printed
for sale through his organization ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Right there, what size town is Asheville, N. C. ?
Mr. Barker. Asheville is a city of about — let us see ; I have the pop-
ulation right here.
The Chairman. Give it to us approximately.
Mr. Barker. It was 50,193 in 1930.
The Chairman. As the result of the large mailing orders, and so
forth, what happened in the post office there? Didn't they have to
secure additional help to take care of Pelley's business there?
Mr. Barker. I understand that they had to employ some additional
help at times to handle this stuff for Pelley and to secure certain in-
formation.
The Chairman. Of the total mailing there, the sending of letters,
and so on, and so forth, what percentage is Pelley's and what percent-
age is the balance of the town ? Did you find that out ?
Mr. Barker. I think Pelley's outgoing mail would constitute about
10 percent of the entire mailing of the post office.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Barker, in addition to the information which
you have obtained from the express records as to the large ship-
ments— that is, the bulk shipments — that were sent out by Pelley, did
you conduct any investigation with reference to post-office mailings
by Pelley ?
Mr. Barker. You mean on parcel post ?
Mr. Whitley. Parcel post.
Mr. Barker. Just an estimate. It was too large to get definite
information.
Mr. Whitley. It would have required too much clerical work?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Can you indicate, as the result of your inquiries- and
investigation there, what the total of that would be?
Mr. Barker Well, it will run more than his express shipments.
Mr. Whitley. Considerably more?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. Did you make any check on his outgoing or incom-
ing mail over a particular period of time, just to get a cross-section
of it ?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. State what you did in reference to his mail. How
did you make a check?
Mi1. Barker. The post office kept a list of all incoming and outgoing
mail received by the Pelley PubMshers — Little Visits, the Founda-
tion Fellowship, the Silver Legion, the Pellev Publishers, M. Helen
Pelley. and W. D. Pelley.
The Chairman. At whose request was that list kept ?
Mr. Barker. At the request of the committee, and ordered by the
First Postmaster General.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4219
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Whitley. What did that check disclose?
Mr. Barker. That check disclosed thai over a period of approxi-
mately 90 days Pelley received and dispatched 50,000 pieces of mail.
Mr." Thomas. Mr. Attorney, what 90 days was that (
Mr. Wr,TTLlT. What was the exact period over which that check
was made. Mr Barker?
Mr. Barker. It be^an in February and ended, I think, the 14th of
April
Mr. Voorhis. That was the mail received?
Mr. Barker. The incoming and outgoing.
Mr. Whitley. The incoming and outgoing mail over a 3-month
period was 50,000 pieces?
Mr. IWktr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitliy. Do you have a list of the persons to whom that out-
going mail was addressed?
Mr. Barker. Not that particular list, but I have a more recent list —
a watch that was kept on his mail from July 17, 1039, to August 19,
1939.
Mr. Whitley. That is a period of 30 days?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You do have a record of the outgoing mail and in-
coming mail for that period of 30 days?
Mr. B ' rkf.r. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And what does that record disclose ?
Mr. Barker. I have not added these names on this list here.
The Chairman. In other words, you have the names of the people
that he wrote to?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you have the names of the people who wrote
him. where their names are on the outside of the envelopes?
Mr. B'rker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Does that list indicate that he sent his mail all over
the United States?
Mr. Bapker. And foreign countries, too.
Mr. Whitley. And foreign countries?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Whitley. And the majority of that outgong mail represents
either pamphlets or literature being sent out ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Or material being sent out in connection with his
publishing business?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Right in that connection, do you have any list of
his outgoing mail; for instance, letters that he wrote to Hamburg,
Germany ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And letters written him from Germany?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have letters written by him to anyone in
Italy?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And letters from someone in Italy to him?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
4220 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Do you have letters written by him to Canada?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And letters from Canada to him?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So that he does a world-wide correspondence, does
he not?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir ; he has considerable mail.
Mr. Whitley. You have in that list correspondence or outgoing
mail to the German-American Bund or to its representatives?
Mr. Barker. Well, not under the name of the German-American
Bund; but there is mail addressed to certain individuals who I un-
derstand are connected with the German- American Bund. That has
been ascertained by other investigators. I have no personal knowl-
edge of it myself.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, do you want some of the persons to
whom this outgoing mail was addressed read into the record?
The Chairman. Well, I don't know. Do some of the names there
connect up with the activities of the bund or any of these other
organizations?
Mr. Whitley. You have mail going to George Deatherage?
Mr. Barkfr. Yes, sir; here is George Deatherage, box 467, St.
Albans, W. Va.
Mr. Whitley. Does he have outgoing mail or incoming mail from
James True?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; and mail to James True.
Mr. Whitley. What other individuals or organizations of that
type does the list indicate that he is in touch with — Mr. Edmonson —
Robert Edmonson?
Mr. Barker. Yes; he is on here. Just those organizations that
were the subject of the investigation by the committee in April or
May. They are practically all listed here.
Mr. Thomas. Do you have Mrs. Fry's name listed ?
Mr. Barker. No; I did not have Mrs. Fry's name listed here, either
on the incoming or the outgoing mail.
The Chairman. Referring to the list of those that have been
under investigation, suppose you read some of those that are
pertinent.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Chairman, that would take quite a little while.
This list is 35 or 40 pages long. He is in correspondence with
several Members of Congress here, I see, and secretaries to leaders
in the German- American Bund, and the North German Lloyd and
Hamburg-American Line.
Mr. Mason. When you say he is in correspondence, I just wonder
what that means. I have been receiving a lot of this stuff at my
hotel residence, but I have never written to him and never thanked
him for it, nor even bothered to read it.
Mr. Barker. I was reading from the incoming and not the out-
going; because he could write to anybody, you know, and have their
names appear on this list; but I was just reading the incoming
mail.
The Chairman. We can develop that later.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Barker, did you secure any further informa-
tion with reference to the scope or extent of his distribution of this
literature?
.—
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4221
Mr. Barker. Well, his distribution of literature lias shown about
a 150-percent increase.
Mr. Whitley. In what period (
Mr. Barker, 1 would say in 6 months.
Mr. Whitley. In the past 6 months?
Mr. Barker. No; in the first 6 months of 1938 it showed a 150-
percent increase over the 12 months of 1037.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, this concerted action, the constant
propaganda that is being circulated by these various groups and
individuals, including Mr. Pelley, is evidently gaining momentum?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. As indicated by the increased interest in Mr. Pel-
ley's publications?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. His bank account grows too.
Mr. Voorhis. That is what I was going to ask. Do you have any
indication that one reason why his mail has increased is the fact that
Mr. Pelley might have come into some new sources of funds? Is
there any indication of that?
. Mr. Barker. No indication of any considerable source.
The Chairman. We are going into the question of finances. Are
you ready to go into the question of finances new, Mr. Whitley?
Mr. Whitley. Yes, I think so.
The Chairman. I understand you have his recent bank account?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Of Pelley Publishers or Skyland Press?
Mr. Barker. Skyland Press.
The Chairman. Is his monev being deposited now in the Skyland
Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. That is the bank account for everything.
The Chairman. Now let us see if we can understand. What are
his sources of revenue? I mean, how is he getting it— by checks,
cash, money orders, or how?
Mr. Barker. He gets it from all of them. He gets Railway Ex-
press money orders; post-effice money orders; Postal and Western
Union money orders; personal, certified, and cashier's and treasurer's
checks, currency, postage stamps, and coins.
The Chairman. All right. Now, he has a bank account under the
Skyland Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Does he have a bank account in anybody else's
name ?
Mr. Barker. No bank account in his name or in his wife's name,
that I could locate.
The Chairman. There is no account in the name of William Dud-
ley Pelley, or his wife, or the Silver Legion, or any other?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
The Chairman. The only bank account is the Skyland Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now. what does he deposit to that account ?
Mr. Barker. According to the accounts that I have examined and
some checks that I have looked at, he deposits the checks that he
has received from all over the United States and foreign countries —
that is, personal and certified checks, cashier's checks and exchange —
and sometimes currency.
4222 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. How many times has he deposited cash in the
Sky] and Press account?
Mr. Barker. I think three or four times here, where he has de-
posited cash in a considerable amount.
The Chairman. All right ; give us those amounts that he deposited
in cash.
Mr. Thomas. And the dates.
Mr. Barker. September 10, 1938, $400.
September 6, 1938, $300.
May 16, 1939, $227.
May 1, 1939, $600.
June 2, 1939, $200.
Then his bookkeeper, Talpey, in making these deposits will some-
times make a deposit of 5 cents in silver and a $1 Chicago check, and
a New York check for $224.95, making a total of $226. They fre-
quently put in coins to make it an even dollar.
The Chairman. But as a matter of fact most of his deposits are
checks ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In that account?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What percentage would you say is checks?
Mr. Barker. Well, practically all of it is.
The Chairman. Practically all of them with the exception that
you have named ?
Mr. Barker. Practically all of them are checks and American Ex-
press money orders.
The Chairman. He takes his checks and his American Express
money orders and deposits them to the account of the Skyland Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, how much has he had on deposit in the Sky-
land Press? You have the bank statement?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; I have the bank statement, and the account
started on September 24, 1937, and it goes down to June 30, 1939.
During that time there has been deposited to the Skyland Press ac-
count $32 320.70.
The Chairman. All right. Now, let us take that account for a
moment, before we get into the other sources of revenue. He depos-
ited $32,000 over that period of time, and that represented checks and
Railway Express money orders that he had received (
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir ; and some cash.
The Chairman. Yes: and out of that fund did he pay himself any
salary?
Mr. Barker. I could not find any single check drawn to him per-
sonally. I found some to cash, but I do not know who got the cash.
The Chairman. Does he operate the Skyland Press; pay the ex-
penses of the Skyland Press out of that?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. Here are the checks given the employees of
the Skyland Press. I have a list of their names. Did you want
thai \
The Chairman. Well, we will get that a little later on.
Mr. Barker. His weekly pay roll amounts to $363.46. That is,
it is an average weekly pay roll.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4223
The Chairman. All right. Now, does he receive money from other
sources besides Kail way Express and bank checks?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. For (his account I
Mr. Barker. You mean
The Chairman. First, does he receive money from any other
source ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What other sources?
Mr. Barker. He receives post-office money orders.
The Chairman. What else?
Mr. Barker. Currency, coins, and stamps.
The Chairman. Now. does he deposit the post-office money orders
and the cash, and the postage stamps — does he ever deposit that to
the Skyland Press account?
Mr. Barker. A Veil, I would say that 99 percent of his money-order
account does not go into a bank account.
The Chairman. How much has he gotten through that source —
through post-office money orders — that you have a record of?
Mi! Barker. From September 1. 1937, to July 8, 1939, he had re-
ceived 5.45(3 post-office money orders.
The Chairman. Amounting to how much?
Mr. Barker. Amounting to $34,946.98.
The Chairman. Now, is there any record of what he does with
that money; is there any bank account in which he deposits that
money which you have been able to find ?
Mr. Barker. Of these 5,456 post-office money orders that he re-
ceived, 38 of them were placed in banks for collection; 5,418 of
them were cashed at the window in the Asheville post office — the
money-order window. Now, the total amount of the money orders
cashed there amounted to $34,300.62.
The Chairman. That is the amount of cash that he did not deposit
in any bank?
Mr. Barker. Well, he did make some deposits of cash. Where
that came from, I don't know.
The Chairman. But the total amount of his deposits in cash is
about $1,200 or $1,300?
Mr. Barker. More than that.
The Chairman. More than $1,300?'
Mr. Barker. I would say so; about $2,000.
The Chairman. The balance of the $34,000 — there is no record of
any bank — that he deposited that in any bank?
Mr. Barker. I could not find it.
The Chairman. So, if he did not deposit it in any bank, what he
actuallv did was to go to the post office, cash it, and use the cash?
Mr. Barker. What he did with it, I don't know, but he got the
money.
The Chairman. He got the money, and he did not deposit it to
the Skyland Press or in any bank account?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir ; he got the money.
The Chairman. Now, so far as you have been able to learn, so far
as the record is concerned, you have no record of the cash he received ?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
4224 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. The amount of money people sent him in cur-
rency— there is no way of tracing that?
Mr. Barker. No way of tracing the amount of currency he receives
every day, or the amount of coins, or the amount of stamps — there
is no way of tracing that, but lie does receive a considerable amount.
The Chairman. But so far as the record is concerned, what is the
total amount he has received over a period, we will say, from 1933,
or 1932, down to the present time? Do you have the total?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. Excluding that bank account in New York
which has not arrived yet
The Chairman. By the way, is that a big bank account?
Mr. Barker. I could not tell you.
The Chairman. Did you look at some of the entries?
Mr. Barker. They looked at some of them, but they were in a big
book of ledger sheets ; the bank kept them in a big book, and it was
dark in that warehouse, and they could not see, and I did not get the
account.
The Chairman. But you are going to have it sent down?
Mr. Barker. Oh, yes.
The Chairman. But what you have actually gotten to this date,
of record, what has he gotten in, and over what period has he gotten
it in?
Mr. Barker. The bank accounts in Washington and Asheville
amount to $174,014.51. That does not include the Xew York bank
account.
Mr. Thomas. During what period does that cover?
Mr. Barker. That covers the period from October 16, 1931, up to
June 30, 1939.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question right
there.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. From your study of all these deposits, from your
study of the collections, what indications are there as to the sources
of this income?
Mr. Barker. I have looked into that, too, Mr. Thomas, and when
the United States marshal grabbed everything Pelley had down there,
under an order from the Federal court, he also got control of the
mail, and here are some original money orders. They are all dated
in 1934.
Mr. Thomas. I mean just generally, from what kind of sources?
From the sale of books?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. Contributions?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. What else?
Mr. Barker. Well, he has had some large contributions.
The Chairman. Right in that connection — you arc talking about
large contributions — here is his own statement in his book. Talking
about going into Oklahoma, he said :
I knew two things which these fellows did not. First, it was within the
karma of the Silvershirt Movement to work out a maneuver somewhere in the
West. Second, tucked away in my flies were letters from influential Okla-
homans, informing me that if T would make the legion a power in Oklahoma
politics aid in private ways might in nowise he lacking. * * *
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4225
Mr. Thomas. So that, then, we have the sale of booklets and con-
tributions— domestic contributions. Is there any record of any for-
eign contributions \
Mr. Barker. Only for literature.
Mr. Thomas. Only for literature?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
Mr. Thomas. Is there any other source you ran think of other than
that which you have mentioned?
Mr. Barker. No? sir. Of course, the main source of income of
Pelley's whole business is not the Silver Legion; it is the publica-
tions— the sale of this literature and the sale of this magazine Libera-
tion.
The Chairman. Now. he has not some cash contributions, has he
not?
Mr. Barker. Oh, yes.
The Chairman. There are evidently cash contributions he had?
Mr. Barker. Oh, yes.
The Chairman. He tells here in his book of one person who helped
him out by contributions in cash.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. Have you secured any evidence where Pelley took
any of the cash he got and deposited it. turned it over to someone as
trustee to invest for him and, in turn, to pay him back?
Mr. Barker. Well, I made an investigation, or attempted to make
an investigation, in regard to Pelley's money-order business at Bel-
mont, Mass. A lady up there by the name of Sarah C. Scott was
listed in this list of money orders as having sent Pelley some $3,800
in money orders, in $100 denominations, mostly. There was one for
$40 and a couple for $50. but the most of them were in $100 denomina-
tions. She purchased those money orders at different post-office
branches in Boston — Waverly branch, Cambridge branch, station 154,
Essex station
The Chairman. You do not have to read all those branches. Any-
way, she purchased them at different branches?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. Now, on March 22, 1939, she sent Pelley
$500; on March 24. 2 days later, she sent him another $500, all in
$100 money orders and all purchased at the same station. I attempted
to contact Miss Scott
Mr. Thomas. Miss or Mrs. ?
Mr. Barker. Miss Sarah C. Scott. She is about 61 years old, and
she is a woman of considerable means. I ascertained by inquiry
from various sources that she is worth about $250,000 to $300,000 anil
that she has various investments. I wanted to find out from her if
she was interested in Pelley's activities, or if this was dividends from
money which Pelley had salted away with her for investment; but I
could not contact her. because she had left the United States and gone
to Canada.
Mr. Mason. Did she leave the United States to go to Canada after
she sent the thousand dollars you mentioned?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. She left no forwarding address.
The Chairman. You do not know whether that wTas a contribution
on her part; you did not get any evidence as to why she sent that
money — what it represented?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
4226 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. What were some of the other large deposits he
made, or receipts that he got (
Mr. Barker. Well, I found in examining his bank account that a
man in New York had sent Pelley some money.
The Chairman. Who is that man?
Mr. Barker. That is George B. Fisher.
The Chairman. Is he connected with the Crowell Publishing Co. ?
Mr. B rker. Yes, sir.
The Chaif.man. Can you tell us something about that man and
about his contributions?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. I wanted to get the amount. January 3,
1938, he sent a check to Pelley Publishers for $2,000: March 17, 1938,
he sent a check to William Dudley Pellev for $600; February 6, 1939,
he sent a check to William Dudley Pelley for $2,000. Mr. George B.
Fisher is located in New York City, at 480 Lexington Avenue. He is
sole owner of the Just-So Dress Co. Prior to the crash of the New
York S ock Market of 1929 he was worth about $200,000. He holds a
large block of stock in the Crowell Publishing Co. He came to the
United States from Canada several years ago. entered business as a
cutter and dress designer. When the Crowell Publishing Co. decided
to establish a dress-pattern department in the Woman's Home Com-
panion, Mr. Fisher was selected to do the work. As orders were re-
ceived by the magazine they were turned over to Fisher, who made the
dresses, sent them to the cuctomers. His income is $10,000 a year;
he has a very good reputation.
The Chairman. What does he do; is he the owner of the magazine;
does he edit one of the magazines, or is he in charge of it ?
Mr. Barker. I don't know that, sir.
Mr. Thomas. Have you contacted Mr. Fisher?
Mr. Bark: r. No, sir.
Mr. Thomas. You do not know, then, why he happened to make
these contributions?
Mr. B \rki r. No, sir; he was out of town when I was there.
Mr. Whitley. Are there any other contributions of any sizable
amount which you were able to identify?
Mr. Barklr. None that were considerable, except there is a check
here to Pelley from Dr. John R. Brinkley, M. D., of Little Rock, Ark.,
for $G29.64, dated November 28, 1938.
Mr. Whitley. Who is Dr. Brinkley?
Mr. Barker. Dr. Brinkley is a physician, a graduate physician. He
does considerable advertising by radio from a station located down at
Villa Acuna, Mexico.
Mr. Whitley. Is that just across the border, or close to Del Rio?
Mr. B \rker. About 4 miles from Del Rio.
Mr. Whitley. Has he been in the broadcasting business very long?
Mr. Barker. Yes; I think that station Mas established several years
ago. It is a very powerful radio station.
Mr. Whitley. Where was Dr. Brinkley located prior to his present
location ?
Mr. Barker. I think he was located in Milford, Kans., and he had
some difficulties with the F. C. C. ; then he established this radio station
in Mexico. It is a Mexican corporation.
The Chairman. Is that a powerful station?
Mr. Mason. Yes ; he said it was very powerful.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4227
The Chairman. Mr, Counsel, while you are asking about the sources
of revenue, while you are dealing with his sources of revenue — well,
maybe you had better finish with Brinkley. (Jo ahead.
Mr. Whitley. Did you ascertain what the relations were between
Pel ley and Dr. Brinkley?
Mr. Barker. "Well. I could not gel very far into that. I found in
Pelley's long-distance calls, telephone calls from 4810 — that is Pelley's
telephone at Asheville, N. C. — to Ernest Cummings, who was one of
Pelley's agents, care of Dr. John R. Brinkley, at Del Rio, Tex. The
telephone call did not list Brinkley 's name, but it gave the telephone
number as 625, at Del Rio. When I got down there I found that was
the telephone number of Dr. Brinkley in his hundred thousand dollar
home down there at Del Rio.
The Chairman. This Silver Shirt organization was organized
mostly in the West (
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; the membership is largely on the west coast.
The Chairman. The purpose of that organization is to get mailing
lists of names of people to whom he can send his publications and his
literature; is not that the primary purpose of it?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I notice here — and I will read it, because it is perti-
nent— Mr. Pelley's own statement about the Silver Shirts. He said :
Who in this stricken Nation has not heard of the Silver Shirts? Step up to the
average man on the streets today and ask him, "Have you ever heard of the
Silver Shirts?" What will he answer in these early months of 1939? "Sure. I've
heard of 'em. There was a crazy fool down somewhere in the South who tried
to revive the Ku Klux Klan and go after the Jews. But the Government
authorities fixed him. I think he got in jail."
The average man says that, because such is the perversive intelligence that
has been published. But the battle is still raging, that I started that midnight
back in 1933. And I did not land in jail, though its doors opened for me.
Far and wide across this Nation in the opening months of that epochal year
went the high tocsin to America's Christian patriots to form the Silver Legion.
From Maine, from Oregon, from Michigan, from Texas came back the pledges
of Christian freemen to band themselves together and clean the great homestead
that was the stricken United States.
The tiny lad that had stood on the knoll in summer morning behind the East
Templeton parsonage and marveled at the mystery of an ant running up a grass
stalk, the lad who had stood with Mabel beneath that wild-cherry tree whi'e she
broke off a sprig of cherry blossoms and put them in her hair, the youth who had
lain in that AVilmington tenement and grieved for a little white casket to the
drone of midnight saxophones, the fellow who had stood with Admiral Kolchak
in far-away Siberia, who had watched the moth wobble on his table in a Green-
wich Village twilight, the man who had beheld Svende Garde's green carpet, th?n
approached the Doors of Revelation and gone through them * * * what does
the world know of the innermost thoughts of a mortal's heart when he sounds a
bugle to a nation and beholds the miracle of great hordes responding * * *
(p. 395).
Now. he goes on down-
Mr. Mason. And the fellow who writes that kind of drivel has
what — a million followers?
The Chairman. I am going to show yon how many he has got, ac-
cording to his own statement here. He says :
From Massachusetts, from Montana, from Florida, from Idaho, from Ohio,
Pennsylvania. Texas. Washing: on. Illinois, and California the Silver Legion-
naires were responding to my tocsin. It was an awe-inspiring thing.
I had known that the Nation was disgruntled with the encroaching caste of
Jewry. I had never appreciated that it hungered for leadership like t, is Yet
had the prophecy back there in New York not stated: "When the young painter
4228 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
comes to power in Germany, take that as your time signal to launch your or-
ganization." There was substance to such prophecy. It was not idle vaporing
of subconscious mind. And always and forever in the back of my thinking was
the radiant culmination * * * I must "sit upon an iceberg in the center of a
sea of hostile humanity" * * * and then something was to happen * * *
(p. 809).
Then he goes on down, talking about his organization, the Silver
Legion. I am not going to read all this, but he has pictures here of the
different posts of the legion. He goes on down and says:
A year or so later this was the gentleman who sat witli the State's prose-
cution in the Buncombe County courtroom and assiduously counseled with the
lawyers who were doing their utmost to send me to prison. The zeal with
which he testified against me, the fraternity that was apparent between him
and my prosecutors, made painfully obvious the prosecution's character. Inci-
dentally, he was exempted from answering any questions as to how he became
disconnected from legion headquarters.' H* managed to convey to the jury that
he had resigned for dark and mysterious reasons having to do witli headquar-
ters' "irregularities." He did not specify just what these reasons were, or that
he had made them instead of myself. * * * As the reader will see, it was
that kind of "trial." * * * Sieber stayed on in Asheville and took Ander-
son's place. The Silver Legion was forging ahead. One August day, while
visiting my friend, Louis McFadden. in Washington. Marion Henderson sent me
a telegram.
A party of men were driving up to Asheville from Louisiana and urgently
wished to see me. Notably among them was the Reverend Gerald K. Smith,
later to achieve notoriety as orator at the funeral of the murdered Huey
Long. * * *
The Reverend Gerald Smith was a big-bodied, dynamic, young man, with a
wife as dainty as his vo.ee was bombastic. He was pastor of a church in
Shreveport, I learned, but had read my writings and was moved to be a Silver
Shirt. He was the sort of pastor who walks bareheaded in rain and breathes
deeply and with gusto. During a 2-day visit at headquarters, during which
time he and his wife and his brother-in-law all became Silver Shirrs, he per-
petually nursed a walking stick (p. 413).
And he goes on and tells about employing the Reverend Gerald
K. Smith and others in the Silver Shirt movement :
I have frequently been queried : "What was your purpose in summoning
up the Silver Shirts? * * What did 1 expect to accomplish with them,
practically? Did I expect to recruit enough men, and have them trained in
implicit obedience, to dare intimidate the Federal Government? Had I hoped
to launch a second Ku Klux Klan but devoid of the anti-Catholic stipulation?
How could I expect to stir up anti-Jewish sentiment across the Nation and yet
do nothing to lead it into military action * * * which might have meant
treason?
Examining from perspective my psychology in this period, based mainly on
certainties of a prophetical nature, it was none of these and all of them. I felt
that I knew positively, for instance, that nothing of a vit il nature was going
to occur throughout America until 1936. Furthermore, it wasn't to be the
legion as it was recruited in 1933 that would finally serve the Nati in in its
interval of upset. Persecution must come first. The thing that I was doing
was locating and proving leadership for the country's greater-plight years further
ahead.
Just as the League for the Liberation had connected me with my first asso-
ciates of worth, and supplied a background for the legion when it came, so
these Silver cohorts were finding and testing character for heading the Christian
oommenwealth. Over and over again, in a hundred places, students of this
movement will find this thought expressed in the 07 issues of Liberation Weeklv
throughout 1933 and PKS4.
"Three times you will fail," the prophecy had uttered, "but the fourth time
be successful ! Yet the fourth time cannot happen unless three steps go before."
The league, the college, the legion, these were the steps that could now be
identified.
And yet I knew also that the Christian Party, when if came, would he made
up of the golr1 drained off from human alloy in these initial three divisions.
* * * (p. 416).
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4229
Then he eoes on down, and he is telling aboul when he wenl <<>
( )klahoma, and says:
Men heard we had arrived in Oklahoma, liowever. Heads of western posts
began coming to see me. From 'Texas and Nebraska, from Missouri, from Arkan
sas. they made such a group thai on my first Sunday in Oklahoma I had to
address them. The .lews of Oklahoma City heard about it. Silver Shirts were
in Oklahoma! I'p to the offices of the papers they smoked and forthwith the
headliiu s blared * * * (p. 417 1.
And i he legion was scouring. In Massachusetts and Oregon, in Texas and
I't-.h. in Florida and Montana, the Silver Shirts were gathering. Soon 1 had
men in heavy numbers in every Slate in the Union hut one. That State was
little Delaware. California had more Silver Shirts than either policemen or
Natii nal Guardsmen. .Mass meetings of Jews had been held in Philadelphia,
Cleveland, Salt Lake City, and Los Angeles, all having one tenor: How can
Pelley be stopped? * * (p. 420).
"The Silver Ranger"
You say that was his publication for a while?
Mr. Barker. In Oklahoma, and later transferred to Los Angeles.
The Chairman (reading) :
"The Silver Rangers started with a circulation of 10,(KK) copies, climbed swiftly
to 20,000, then mounted toward 80,000. The West was waking up. Groups of
Silver Shirt speakers began touring Oklahoma. One contingent of these arrived
in the little town of Itristow where the American Legion Hall had been hired
for the occasion. The meeting in this hall had been set for 8 o'clock. At half
alter seven a frantic ex-soldier sought out our spellbinder where he was dining
in a restaurant.
"'Are you gonna speak against communism?' he asked.
" T certainly am.' our speaker assured him.
" 'Then I'm afraid we can't let you have the hall. You see, we've got too many
Communists in the Legion over here. If you talked against communism you
might hurt their feelings.'
Noble American Legion! * * *"
Now he goes on down and states:
But mysteriously enough, the promised Oklahoma support was annoyingly
delayed. Hebrews were blocking the procuring of ranch lands. Silver Rangers,
deposited in the Oklahoma City post office for wholesale mailing, were not reach-
ing purchasers. Out of one issue of the Ranger — of 20,000 copies — nearly 12 00)
were never delivered. Such losses were ruinous and we needed money. We held
a council of war. It was decided that I should make a trip east.
I left Craig and Adelaide in charge of the Ranger, and Powell and Wicks in
charge of recruiting. Driving my car alone, I headed for Washington. In the
National Capital, earlier in the summer, I had established the Liberation News
Bureau as a personal enterprise to raise myself revenue. It was a weekly service
of confidential bulletins to a select list of husinessmen. Two trusted lieutenants
had it in charge. Thus, while Jewish papers w7ere defaming me for public
racketeering, I was truly drawing so little money from the legion that I had to
run a private project on the side to support my dependents. From my Washing-
ton office I now wrote some letters to a list of close friends. I explained my
predicament and the condition of the legion.
Answers came hack, with relief for my predicament. One Massachusetts
person wrote indignantly: "I'm mailing you some money orders to Oklahoma
City. See that you use it for your own private purposes. It's a gift, not a loan.
The only condition attached to it is, that you must spend it on yourself" (p. 421).
Evidently this person was afraid he would deposit it to the Sky-
land Press.
I drove into Oklahoma City to rind my daughter indignant. "You've got the
wrong set-up here. Dad." she warned me. "I've been learning a lot that I think
you should know about" (p. 422).
And so forth.
94931— 39— vol. 6 :;4
4230 l .\ -AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
So it appears in his own words how the legion started and how it
grew and how, through close friends, he could contact close friends
and get contributions.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Barker, getting back a moment to the rela-
tionship between Dr. Brinkley and Mr. Pelley, is that the same
Brinkley who is known as k-Dr. Goat-Gland Brinkley'"?
Mr. Barker. Well, he is the fellow that advertises the ''Brinkley
operation"; whatever that is, I don't know, but he charges $750 for it.
Mr. Whitley. Does Dr. Brinkley. over his radio station just across
the border in Mexico, put out any broadcasts which contain material
on a Nazi or Fascist nature?
Mr. Barker. Well, I have had his radio station checked for some
time. That is station XERA, 840 kilocycles and 500,000 watts. It
has three towers, 320 feet high, and a directional antenna that forces
the broadcast into the United States. And, while it is a Mexican
corporation," he controls it and, so far as I can ascertain, he has never
had anything said over his radio except transcribed addresses by him
and his wife, or personal addresses.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, he was prohibited from operating
a broadcasting station in the United States, so he went just across
the bolder into Mexico and set up this powerful station which covers
the United States?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And he continues his broadcasting from there?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. So far as you know, the program is not to supply
material for Fascists?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Going back to the question of income, of Pelley's
income from various sources, you have testified that with the excep-
tion of contributions that you have mentioned, which were the only
ones you were able to identify, the principal source of income is from
the sale of his literature?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Does he receive any income in the wav of initiation
fees and dues from the membership of the Silver Legion?
Mr. Barker. When they write Pelley to form an organization of
the Silver Shirts, they call it the Council of Safety, and there is a
charge of $1 for enlistment fee and 10 cents per week. Those remit-
tances go to Asheville and in return the membership receive the Lib-
eration magazine and also certain books to study on how the Jews
threaten to overthrow the Government.
Mr. Voorhis. Is that $1 for a council or for each member?
.Mr. Barker. It is $1 for each member.
Mr. Whitley. Is there any way by which you can determine, or
were you able to determine the amount of income he receives from
that source?
Mr. Parker. That is all lumped together, and it goes into the Sky-
land Press account.
Mr. Whitley. That goes into the account of the Skyland Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; a1! except the money orders.
Mi-. W.iiteey. Or the cash; you could not get an accurate account?
Mr. P> rker. No sir.
Mr. Voorhis. How would it come to the Skvland Press?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4231
Mr. Babker. It comes from people to Pelley and some to Pelley
Publishers.
Mr. Voorhis. No matter who it is payable to, it all goes into the
Skyland Press account \
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir; that is the only account.
Mr. Whitley. He docs not have a bank account for the Silver
Legion \
Mr. Barker. No, sir; not that I know of, unless it would be in some
local place we have not found.
Mr. Whitley. The Silver Legion headquarters are in the same
building and the same offices with the Skyland Press offices?
Mr. Parker. As a matter of actual fact, they are, but Pelley
claims in a sworn bill filed in the District court that the offices are
located at T-2T Market Street, Wilmington, Del.
Mr. Whitley. That is the corporation's headquarters, or that is
probably the address of the local representative.
Mr. Barker. No, sir; that is the address of the company, or where
Pelley secured services when he incorporated the Silver Leo-ion.
The Chairman. While on the subject of the Silver Legion, if I
may interject, in his book he speaks of organizing in California, and
he 'says this [reading] :
We returned and plunged into the battle.
Bick had come to California, discovered its legionnaires frenzied for action,
adjudged me incompetent because I kept my head, and set about saving the
Nation by himself. Yet I should be fair to Bick. The man was sincere. Not
knowing the reasons for my many changed decisions — to meet new conditions —
he thought me departing from my first-expressed principles.
At another place here he says:
Bear in mind that what was happening in California was by no means con-
fined to that State alone. It was happening in Massachusetts and Florida, in
Texas and Oregon, in Utah and Missouri. By the end of January 1934 there
was scarcely one State in the American Union that did not have its representa-
tion in Silver Shirts.
Then he says further:
My purpose in forming the Silver Shirts — in my own heart at least — was
to prepare a great horde of men nationally to meet the crisis intelligently
and constructively. Every Silver Shirt must know the full extent of the
conspiracy, see it in its most detailed workings, get his thinking up onto a
level where the size of the plot could be accredited and, if lied communism
in all its frightfnlness were finally projected upon the country, be in a position
to join witb tens of thousands of similarly enlightened Christians, and pre-
serve the form of constitutional government set up by the forefathers. If
this last meant using force to hurl a great regime of scoundrels from the
country, very well then, it meant force.
Speaking of military discipline, he says :
The whole Silver Shirt horde required military discipline from top to
bottom. But military discipline is military discipline. It rests on severe
penalties for infractions of rules. It depends on uniforms to designate rank
and therefore authentic responsibilities.
Then he goes on and tells about Colonel McCord, of the Reserve
Officers' Training Corps. He says:
Hinckley, my galvanic Irishman, said to me one night, "I think I've got exactly
the man you need to grab hold of these wild men and lick some discipline
into them. He's ''olonel McCord of the Reserve Officers' Training Corps. I'll
have bim at the house tomorrow night and if you can sell him on your program,
your local battle will be won."
4232 IX AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Then he tells how lie employed Colonel McCord to train the
Silver Shirts.
Mr. Whitley. Going back to the subject of income, was there any
way for you to determine what percentage of the deposits in the Sky-
land Press account in the Asheville bank came from Silver Shirts
initiation fees or from the weekly dues?
Mr. Barker. No. sir; there is no accurate way to establish that.
Those remittances came from all over the country, and it would be
almost impossible to separate them. This stack of monej' orders here
are from New York, Massachusetts. Idaho, California, Ohio, Wash-
ington, Minnesota. Pennsvlvania. Indiana, Virginia, Connecticut,
Vermont, Texas. Utah, Wisconsin, Kentucky, British Columbia,
Maine. Oklahoma, Florida, New Jersey. Italy, Nevada. Quebec. Iowa,
and Illinois.
Mr. Whitley. Where did you state you obtained those money or-
ders?
Mr. B\rker. Thev were impounded by the receiver and never re-
turned to the remitters.
Mr. Whitley. You testified that the Sky land Press bank account
was opened in September 1937, and from that date until the date of
your check of the account, which was June 1939, I believe
Mr. Barker (interposing). Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Up to that date $32,320.70 was deposited in the
account ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Consisting primarily of checks that had been re-
ceived ?
Mr. B^RKER. American Express Co. money orders and cash also.
Mr. Whitley. And they came in from all over the United States?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You also testified that from September 1937 to July
1939. Pelley cashed a total of $34,900, in round figures?
Mr. B'rker. $34 300 at the post office.
Mr. Whitley. Where did he cash that amount of postal money
orders?
Mr. Bvrker. At the windows. He got the cash at the windows.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know what happened then to that
amount of money?
Mr. Bvrker. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That makes a total then of approximately $66,000,
in round figures, that Pellev received from September 1937 until
July 1939?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. In less than 2 years?
Mr. Barker. That is correct.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Mr. Pelley declared that
amount to income in his income-tax returns which he made to the
Government ?
Mi-. Barker. I cannot say. definitely*. I am investigating that
matter now.
The Chairman. Can you give that amount?
Mr. Whitley. He said he could not state definitely now, but. that
he was investigating that phase of it.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4233
The Chairman. Right at this point, we have the income-tax re-
turns here. Does the committee think that we should have these
returns for last year and the year before, particularly, made public?
Mr. Voorhis. It depends on what they show.
The Chairman. They show a very small income in comparison
with what he gol in the way of revenue. It is a matter for the com-
mittee to determine as to whether we should make them public.
Mr. Tii mas. I certainly think if we find a difference between what
income he paid (axes on and the admitted amount of income, or the
amount of income we find, I think then we should notify the Treas-
ury Department of that difference, and naturally they would take
the necessary steps.
The Chairman. Did any agents of the Government, so far as you
were able to learn, ever check the money orders that he received and
cashed?
.Mr. Barker. I do not believe that the agents, of the Bureau of
Internal Revenue have ever checked that. Apparently they did not
know that he was doing that.
The Chairman. What about the F. B. I.? They have been mak-
ing an investigation, have they not?
Mi-. Barker. I understand that the F. B. I. has been investigating
Pelley. I understand that they are still investigating Pelley.
The Chairman. Did they check these post-office receipts?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
The Chairman. You are the first one to make that sort of an
investigation?
Mr. Barker. I was the first man to go into all of that. It re-
quired several weeks to get this up, but of course we had to go
over the money orders for a period of months.
Mr. Thomas. So far as you know, no one connected with the
Treasury Dspartment has checked his income?
Mr. Barker. They would have the income. I understand that
thev have checked and double-checked his bank account and his tax
returns.
Mr. Thomas. But as to this particular income, you do not think
they checked it ?
Mr. B \i:ker. I was advised that they have not.
The Chairman. Suppose you read what he reported to the Gov-
ernment last year, the year before, and the year before that.
Mr. Barker. I have the tax returns photostated for from 1934 to
1938.
The Chairman. Give it for those years.
Mr. Barker. Do you want the amount of tax paid?
The Chairman. No; the amount of income reported.
Mr. Barker. In 1934 he reported an income, or individual income,
of $4,108.92.
Mr. Thomas. Is that the gross income or net income?
Mr. Barker. That was the gross income. He paid $50.52 in taxes.
Mr. Whitley. What amount did he pay taxes on?
Mr. Barker. $1,263.03.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, he paid taxes on only $1,263.03?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; that is what the report shows.
Mr. Whitley. In 1935, on what amount of income did he pay
taxes (
4234 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. Before answering that question, may I say that these
income-tax returns are not filed with the Collector of Internal Reve-
nue for the District of North Carolina, although Pelley's residence
is there and his business is located there, but these tax returns were
filed at Passumpsic, Vt. They are tiled at Burlington, Vt. The
1935 returns show that he had of individual income $2,982.43, he
paid taxes on $182.43, the amount of the tax being $19 30. That
was a joint return of husband and wife. He married Miss M. H.
Hansmann on July 4, 1934.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, that was a personal income-tax
return ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir ; an individual return.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know what salary he gets or has been
getting as the president of the Skyland Press and as president of
the Silver Legion?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether that is specified in the
returns?
Mr. Barker. The Silver Legion is supposed to be a nonprofit or-
ganization
Mr. Whitley. Like the Foundation for Christian Economics.
Mr. B\rker. Yes, sir; a kind of eleemosynary institution.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he filed any separate return
for the Silver Legion, or for the publishing company?
Mr. Barker. The Silver Legion returns for taxation purposes were
fi^ed in Delaware, with the Secretary of State. I examined those
returns. They give the address of 927 Market Street, Wilmington.
That is the address of the corporation Guarantee & Trust Co. Those
returns that were filed with the secretary of state for the purpose
of taxation stated that the Silvershirts was a nonprofit, benevolent,
fraternal organization, and had no capital stock.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether the Skyland Press ever filed
any income-tax return?
Mr. Barker. If they did, I have not been able to locate it.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, so far as you know, the only in-
come-tax returns for him or any organization he was connected with
were Irs personal income-tax returns that you are referring to now.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. All right; for 1936 what amount of income did he
report ?
Mr. Barker. He had an income in 1936 of $3,671.60. He paid
taxes on $771.60, $30.86 being the amount of tax paid.
Mr. Whitley. How about 1937? What amount did he report as
income, and what amount did he pay taxes on \
Mr. Barker. That is a joint return of William Dudley Pel lev and
M. Ile'en Pelley. For 1937 the individual return showed $8,435.58.
Mr. Whitley. That was the total income?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. He paid $115.68 in taxes. Included in
thai was the income from lectures, gifts, and donations, amounting
to $7,100. Deducted from that personal traveling expenses, on trips
from coast to coast, amounting to $1,282.17. From the income of
Pelley Publishers, amounting to $19,150, there were various deduc-
tions that left a net loss of $617.75.
Mr. Whitley. In other returns, in the returns of 1937 he included
the income received by Pelley Publishers?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4235
Mr. Barker. What they call Policy Publishers, yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. He included thai in his persona] income-tax return?
Mr. Barker. Vis. sir. He included his individual tax return, or
the return for Pelley and his wife, and the return of Pelley Pub-
lishers.
Mr. Thomas. I have here the figure of $6^435:58. Is that the gross
amount.
Mr. Barker. Fes, sir; thai is the gross amount.
Mr. Thomas. What was the net amount on which he paid the
tax of $115?
Mr. Barker. The balance subject to the normal tax was $2,892.03.
Mr. Whitley. Does that return show any other source of income,
showing what goes to make up that gross figure of $6,000 plus?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Does it show any salary?
Mr. Barker. It shows for salaries and other compensation the
amount of $5,817.83.
Mr. Whitley. Does it specify the salary?
Mr. Barker. No, sir. That covers the salaries of both husband
and wife.
Mr. Whitley. Take up the 1938 return.
Mr. Baeker. The 1938 is an individual return.
Mr. Whitley. That is not a joint return?
Mr. Barker. Xo. sir. It shows for salary from Pelley Publish-
ers. $3,991.02. It shows under salaries a gross income of $3,991.02.
Mr. Whitley. That is gross income from what?
Mr. Barker. From salaries.
Mr. Whitley. Are there any other sources of income?
Mr. Barker. He showed a loss of $1,281.72.
Mr. Whitley. He did not pay any tax at all ?
Mr. Barker. Xo, sir. He had a personal exemption of $2,500, and
he paid State and county taxes to the amount of $124.13, so he had
no tax to pay. In the amounts listed here is the item of $3,991.02
from Pelley Publishers. The amount listed on the individual returns
shows the sources as author, publisher, and lecturer, and that he had
an income of $32,387.55.
Mr. Whitley. What is the source of that?
Mr. Barker. Author, publisher, and lecturer.
Mr. Whitley. What is the gross income reported for the year
1938?
Mr. Barker. This shows $33,669.27 deducted from $32,387.55.
Mr. Whitley. Which makes a loss for the year?
Mr. Barker. It shows a loss of $1,281.72.
Mr. Whitley. Since 1934 what is the total amount of income tax
that Pelley paid.
Mr. Barker. $50.52, $19.30, $30.86, and $1 15.68.
Mr. Whitley. The $115 was paid in 1937?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. That first figure was $50.52?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. In the last one, you say he showed an income of
$32,000 as author, publisher, and lecturer?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Yo::rhis. Then I suppose he showed expenses offsetting against
that, so that he finally came out with a loss.
4236 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. I think it would be ;i good idea to give some of the
deduction from that $32,000.
Mr. Barker. The deductions are for labor, $4,220.25; material and
supplies, $7-17.82; merchandise bought for sale, $17,100 26; plus in-
ventory beginning of year, $5,745.05, making a total of $27,873 38;
less inventory at end of year, $3,848.31; net cost of goods sold, $24,-
025.07; business deductions, promotion and selling, $2,820.78; postage
and shipping, $4,431.84; office expenses and supplies, $1,207.16; bad
debts, $428.01; rent and other expenses, $666.41.
Mr. Whitley. Those were the total deductions asked for 1938?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What does he mean by merchandise bought for
sale, $17,000, plus? What does die refer to there?
Mr. Barker. I do not know.
Mr. Whitley. Those figures you have given us, from 1934 through
1938, show that Mr. Pelley paid a total income tax of $216.36?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; I assume that is correct.
The Chairman. Do we have figures or records that show what the
income was during that time, or what he actually took in?
Mr. Barker. I started to compute it, but I have not completed it,
because we did not have one of the bank ledger sheets.
Mr. Thomas. Do you have any evidence to show where Mr. Pelley
or any of his organizations has treated any of those money orders
that were cashed as income in making out their income-tax returns?
Mr. Barker. Mr. Pelley claims that he knows the Federal Gov-
ernment is watching him and that in making out his income-tax
returns he has religiously accounted for every penny.
Mr. Thomas. Did he cash money orders to the amount of $34,000 ?
Mr. Barker. $34,300.
Mr. Thomas. Have you found evidence that he reported the cash
received from money orders?
Mr. Barker. That matter is still under investigation. We are
trying to ascertain that.
Mr. Thomas. You are still investigating that?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; in conjunction with the Bureau of Internal
Revenue.
Mr. Whitley. So far as you know, that did not go into the Skyland
Press bank account?
Mr. Barker. Possiblv some of it was included in the item of cash.
Mr. Whitley. The total of that was $1,500 to $2,000?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. So that if the entire amount of cash was deposited
in the Skyland Press account, it would still only account for $2,000
of the $34,300 from postal money orders cashed?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. With reference to the income-tax matter, that is
such a complicated field that I suggest we turn it over to the Bureau
of Internal Revenue, or that we turn over to them all the facts that
we have on that phase of it for their action. Do you not think
that that would be the best course?
Mr. Whitley. Yes, sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4237
The Chairman. You are then instructed to do that. You arc to
turn it over to the Bureau of Internal Revenue, and cooperate with
them, giving them all the facts and figures, especially with reference
to the cashed money orders.
Mr. Whitley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. Now, you want to know the total pounds of express
shipments sent out in L937 and 7 months of 1938. It amounted to
31 ... tons by the Southeastern Express.
The Chairman. That was during what period?
Mr. Barker. Twelve months in L937 and 7 months in 1938.
Mr. Whitley. Three and a half tons?
.Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. That does not take into consideration what he sent
through the mail.
Mr. Barker. Of small shipments, of less than a pound; no, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Barker, with reference to your investigation,
did you develop any other information concerning financial transac-
tions that should be made a part of the record?
Mr. Barker. Pelley's income has increased considerably. He had
$17,936 70 deposited in the bank in 1938, and for the first 6 months
of 1939 he had deposited $12,309.48.
Mr. Whitley. During your investigation did you develop any in-
formation concerning Mr. Pelley's associates, or individuals or groups
with which he is in cooperation, or the extent and nature of that
cooperation ?
Mr. Barker. Pelley's organization is a one-man outfit. Pelley is
the directing head of practically everything. He works night and
day and is a very prolific writer, and his office has the shades drawn
all the time: they run the printing press far into the night. They
work on holidays and Sundays and every other day.
The Chairman. Suppose we take a recess at this time and go over
this material in advance of tomorrow's session and give Mr. Barker
a chance to go over the material he has so that we may determine
what we want to develop tomorrow.
(Thereupon, the committee adjourned to meet tomorrow, Tuesday,
August 29, 1939, at 10 a. m.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
TUESDAY, AUGUST 29, 1939
House of Representatives,
Special Committee to Investigate
Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C.
The committee met at 10: 40 a. m., in the caucus room, House Office
Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding.
Present : Mr Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
The committee will go into executive session for a few minutes on
the Pelley matter before we proceed with any more testimony.
(Thereupon the committee went into executive session, and after
a time in executive session, the committee resumed the hearing.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order, and Mr. .barker
will resume the stand.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT B. BARKER— Resumed
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Barker, with reference to William Dudley Pel-
ley and his various publications and organizations, you testified
yesterday that during the period from October 1931 to June 1932,
during which period Mr. Pelley was operating the Galahad Press, he
opened a bank account in his own name, a personal bank account, in
Washington, and deposited in that account the sum of $29,000, in
round figures. You also testified that during the period from June
1932 to August 1934, while still operating the Galahad Press, which
at that time had been moved to Asheville, N. C, Mr. Pelley deposited
in the account which he had opened in Asheville for the organization
known as the Foundation for Christian Economics the total amount
of $81,000, in round figures ; and that shortly thereafter, that is, dur-
ing 1934, as a matter of fact, or early 1935, the Galahad Press became
insolvent and went into bankruptcy, and that the creditors, plus the
preferred stockholders in the Galahad Press, lost between $30,000 and
$35,000. approximately, as a result of that bankruptcy, practically no
assets being found for the Galahad Press. Is that correct?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. In other words, during the period of time the Gala-
had Press was operating, more than $100,000 was deposited to the
other account, or in accounts other than that of the Galahad Press.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. One account at Washington, D. C, being a per-
sonal account, in Pelley *s name, and the other being in the name of
the Foundation for Christian Economics, which he controlled?
4239
4240 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. An additional account of $3,653.10 in Pelley "s name
in the Liberty National Bank, of Washington, D. C. That was known
as the Liberation Xews Bureau.
Mr. Whitley- That was during that same period?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. AVhitley. So far as you have been able to determine from
your investigation, during this period that the Galahad Press was
operating, Pelley had no other source of income except from the
operations of that press?
Mr. Bakker. From the press and this Foundation for Christian
Economics.
Mr. Whitley. With contributions that may have been made, plus
material put out by the press?
Mr. Barker. It came from thepress and the Foundation; yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Going back for a moment, of course, you do not
know, and could not determine, what ultimate disposition was made
of that more than $100,000 which went into those other accounts.
You do not know, and cannot say, that some of it was not used to
pay the operating expenses of the Galahad Press as long as that was
in existence, but the fact remains that instead of depositing the funds
to the account of the Galahad Press, they went into those other
Accounts. Is that correct ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Now, do you have any way of determining what
that sum of over $100,000 that went into those other accounts was
used for?
Mr. Barker. I have here canceled checks of the Foundation for
Christian Economics. I have a number of canceled checks which
show it was used in the payment of bills incurred by the Foundation
for Christian Economics and for the payment of salaries for
employees.
Mr. Whitley. Of the Foundation for Christian Economics?
All-. Barker. Yes, sir. They were also employees of the Galahad
Press.
Mr. Whitley. The same employees of the Galahad Press were also
working for the Foundation for Christian Economics?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. The}' had the same office space, the same
desks and chairs, and the same bank account. The Foundation for
Christian Economics paid some bills of the Galahad Press, and also
paid the State of North Carolina franchise tax in December 1933, of
the Galahad Press, although the Galahad Press was at that time
insolvent.
The Chairman. Some of the checks are payable to cash, are they
not?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So that as to that money, nobody knows what they
did with it?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
The Chairman. Some of it was used to pay hotel bills for Pelley?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. As to the $29,000 account in the Franklin
National Bank, we do not know what happened. Those checks were
destroyed.
The Chairman. As to the $29,000 account, you have some checks
payable to cash?
ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4241
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; in the Foundation for Christian Economics
account.
The Chairman. Some of those checks were for the payment of
hotel hills here in Washington for Pelley, were they not?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. At least, you have some documentary proof that
he applied funds deposited to the account of the Foundation for
Christian Economics to his own personal use?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. His mother and wife received checks from
time to time from the Foundation for Christian Economics, and
Pelley himself received money
The Chairman (interposing). From the Foundation's account?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You have evidence that he was using funds from
the $29,000 account and also funds deposited in the account of the
Foundation for Christian Economics for his own personal use and
benefit \
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. Pelley, in his management of the Galahad
Press, got checks from the Foundation for Christian Economics.
While manager of the Galahad Press he received money from that
source.
The Chairman. He was also an officer in the Foundation for
Christian Economics?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; he incorporated that. They were all inter-
locking.
Mr. Voorhis. While the Galahad Press was a going concern, what
kind of an income did it have? Do you have any evidence as to that ?
Mr. Barker. I found two bank accounts of the Galahad Press.
One was in New York City, with the Mercantile Bank & Trust Co.,
at 1600 Broadway, which totaled $7,724.43.
Mr. Voorhis. What kind of deposits were made in that account, or
where did they come from? For what kind of services were they
apparently given I
Mr. Barker. They were apparently from printing.
Mr. Voorhis. They were doing a printing business, and the deposits
apparently were the results of the purchase of printing material?
Mr. Barklr. By various individuals; yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. You did not find any donations in there?
Mr. Barker. I do not know. There is something about the ac-
counts I do not understand.
The Chairman. What account is that you are referring to?
Mr. Barker. The account of the Galahad Press, Inc., 11 West
Forty-second Street. While the Galahad Press was incorporated
February 7, 1931, this account did not start until September 23, 1931.
That is the only bank account I could find in New York for the
Galahad Press.
The Chairman. That account was in a New York bank?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Over what period was that account?
Mr. Barker. From September 23, 1931, to June 11, 1932. The
next bank account of the Galahad Press that stood in its name began
August 8, 1932. and deposits in that account ceased altogether in
October 1932. That was at Asheville, N. C, in the First National
Bank.
4242 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. This $7,000 bank account was in a New York
bank ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That preceded the opening of the account for the
Galahad Press in Asheville?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. The total amount of the deposits in the
Asheville bank for the Galahad Press was $4,796.6"). Now, those
two figures added together amount to $12,521.08. You will recall
that the stock b:>oks show that they sold stock of the Galahad Press
to the amount of $13,175. They show they had sold $13,175 worth
of preferred stock. Tlrs bank account does not show the amount
of preferred stock that they sold, let alone the income that the
Galahad Press had.
The Chairman. In other words, you know that they got $13,000
from the sale of preferred stock?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you know also that the Galahad Press, dur-
ing that period, must have earned some money?
Mr. B \rker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. They were selling printed matter and material?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And, in addition, Mrs. Ogden let him have
$14,000.
Mr. Barker. $14,C00, and she got -back $2,000.
The Chairman. According to the records, the total amount in the
banks was less than the amount that the preferred-stock holders
contributed ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; it appears that is true from these records.
Mr. Voorhis. You stated a minute ago, in answer to my question,
that, so far as you could determine, the income deposited in the
account was apparently income derived from the sale of printed
material?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Do you show from the evidence, or what does the
evidence show on this point, as to the kind of deposits that were
made to the credit of the Foundation for Christian Economics after
the Galahad Press account was discontinued? Was that income
deposited for the Foundation for Christian Economics from the same
people, or from the same sources, representing apparently the same
kind of service or the furnishing of printed material as was the case
with the Galahad Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; the books show that the income of the
Foundation for Christian Economics was just about the same way
and from about the same sources as the income of the Galahad Press.
Mr. Voorhis. You found that the same people were paying bills
to both outfits?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. The same printing houses did the printing
for them, or for both the Foundation for Christian Economics and
the Galahad Press.
Mr. Voorhis. I mean that the purchasers were the same people,
buying from both concerns.
Mr. Barker. I cannot say that, because this thing is too volumi-
nous to determine.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4243
Mr. Voorhis. What I am trying to gel at is this: Thai when the
Galahad Press was allowed to become defunct, Pelley was really
using the Foundation for Chris! ian Economics, and that money orders
and checks went to the Foundation for Christian Economics thai
would have none to the Galahad Press before it was put to bed.
Mr. Barker. T want to clarify that by stating that the account
of the Foundation for Christian Economics was opened at Ashe-
ville in June I'XVJ, while the account of (he Galahad Press there did
not open until August of the same year.
Mr. Voorhis. In other words, the account of the Foundation for
Christian Economics started first?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. Yon will recall that the Galahad Press
paid the incorporation fees of the Foundation for Christian Econom-
ics in February 1932; but this publication of Pelley's here, which
I showed yon yesterday, says that this publication, Liberation, which
was the principal source of income, was the weekly journal of the
Silver Shirts of America, the active civic organization of the League
for Liberation, published every Saturday by the Galahad Press, Inc.,
both subsidiaries of the Foundation for Christian Economics. It
added that William Dudley Pelley was the commander of the libera-
tion forces.
Mr. Voorhis. As a matter of fact, would it not have been impos-
sible for the Galahad Press to have been a subsidiary of the Founda-
tion for Christian Economics?
Mr. B.arker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Conld each of them, the foundation and the Galahad
Press, have gone on without one touching the funds of the other?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. The date of this shift was November 11,
1933. and the bank account of the Galahad Press had stopped October
31. 1932: so it was a year and 11 days after that.
Mr. Voorhis. Do you have evidence to show what machinery was
used by which the funds which people had previously paid the Gala-
had Press went over into the account of the Foundation for Chris-
tian Economics ( How did they do that ?
Mr. Barker. Of course, Pelley's business had a tremendous in-
crease when he moved to Asheville. It was a money-making propo-
sition. If the Galahad Press had continued to receive the funds that
were going to the Foundation for Christian Economics, there would
not have been any insolvency of the Galahad Press, or loss, but they
diverted the funds over to the Foundation for Christian Economics
and stopped depositing them to the credit of the Galahad Press.
After the lawsuit, on March 20, 1934. they went into bankruptcy.
The Chairman. Most of the checks were payable to Pelley. were
they not? They did not come payable to the Foundation for Chris-
tian Economics, did they ?
Mr. Barker. During that period, you want to know to whom the
checks and money orders were made payable?
Mr. Voorhis. I would think they would come payable to the Gala-
had Press, where they had been doing business with them. What I
want to know is how they avoided depositing the checks to that ac-
count where they were made payable to the Galahad Pies-.
Mr. Barker. They did not avoid it. but they put them in that
account.
Mr. Voorhis. Xot all of them.
4244 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. To the account of the Foundation for Christian
Economics.
Mr. Voorhis. In other words, checks made payable to the Galahad
Press were actually deposited in the account of the Foundation for
Christian Economics?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; it appears so. I do not have those checks.
They were returned to the drawers of the checks.
Mr. Voorhis. You have no evidence of that?
Mr. Barker. We have no actual evidence except that the books of
the Galahad Press were never closed. It never has been closed. It
has never been discharged from bankruptcy, and it is still liable for
all of its debts. They have not been discharged from bankruptcy yet.
The Chairman. Those ledger books show the sources of income for
the Galahad Press, and those books continued until the foundation
started ?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir; the Galahad Press stopped, and the Founda-
tion for Christian Economics started their set of books at that time.
The Chairman. As to checks that have b°en received recently, and
that you have been able to see. are those checks and money orders pay-
able to the Foundation for Christian Economics, Pelley Publishers,
or to Pulley himself ? How are most of the checks made pavable?
Mr. B*rker. There are to PePey Publishers, the Silver Shirt Le-
gion. TV. D. Pellev and foundation fellowship.
Mr. Voorhis. Which one was the Delaware corporation?
Mr. P\rker. T^e S'lver Shirt Leerion.
Mr. Voorhis. The Skylaud Press is what?
Mr. Barker. That is a North Carolina corporation.
Mr. Voorhis. Ts Pelley Publishers a corporation?
Mr. B-rker. No, sir: that, is inst a name. Income-tax returns
wer° fiVrl in the name of PelW Publishers.
Mr. Voorhis. Does Pelley Publishers have any account, or an ac-
count f^r anv monev orders or checks payable to them?
Mr. B-rker. Pellev Publishers does not exist. That is a name.
Mr. Voorhis. The actual nronertv is owned by some other cor-
porate pntity besides Pellev Publishers?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir. I explained it yesterday. I will give the
list again, if you wish.
Mr. Whitley. Yesterday, you testified about the New York bank
account, and yon have just testified concerning it.
Mr. B\rkfr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Have you compiled the totals of all the deposits
which were made in some of the various bank accounts that you
have previously described?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Suppose j'ou give that.
Mr. B rker. There was deposited in New York, that I could
find, $7,724.37, and that was for the Galahad Press, Inc., in the
Mercantile Bank & Trust Co.
Mr. Whitley Between what periods of time?
Mr. Barker. From September 23, 1931. to June 11, 1932. Now,
then1 was deposited in Washington, D. C, from October 16, 1931,
to June 1932. in the name of William Dudley Pelley, personally,
$29,497.42, in the Franklin National Bank, and in the name of
Liberation News Bureau, in the Liberty National Bank, from De-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4245
cember L933, to August 2, 1934, the sum of $3,653.10. Those two de-
posits in the Franklin National Bank and the Liberty National
Bank make a total of $33,150.53. There was deposited in Asheville,
\. C, banks, in all accounts, in the two banks, from June 1032,
to June 30, 1939, the stun of $140,863.99. Now, as to the post-office
money-order account in Asheville, N. C, or money orders cashed
at the window of 1 1 1 < ' post office, they amounted to $34,300.62, from
September 1. W)7. to July 8, 1D39. That makes a total of $216,039.50
over a period of Si L. years.
Mr. Whitley. That, of course, represents the bank accounts which
you could locate and the money orders which he cashed at the
window?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
Mr. Whitley. You have no way of knowing whether there are
other bank accounts or whether some of the funds never went into
bank accounts of any kind?
Mr. Barker. Well, I do find where Pelley got $700 in a postal
money order from Los Angeles during the criminal case to assist in
paying the fine and the cost of the case. He got that from Los
Angeles.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know who sent that?
Mr. Barker. W. AY. Kemp, the man spoken of in the telegram.
The Chairman. What about that? They did not deposit it?
Mr. Barker. That remittance did not reach a bank account, be-
cause he had no bank account at that time.
The Chairman. Did you examine any banks in Oklahoma? He
says in his book that he was actively engaged in Oklahoma.
Mr. Barker. That was the Silver Rangers.
The Chairman. You have not made an examination in Oklahoma
or of California banks to determine whether he had bank accounts
in those States?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
The Chairman. According to his books, he did considerable busi-
ness in Oklahoma and California. He said that his publication had
a circulation of 30.000 out there.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Evidently, he must have had some bank account
in California during that period: it might be well to check over
that in Oklahoma and also in California.
He stated that he had as many as 1,000 Silver Shirts at one meet-
ing, and he must have done quite a business within California. They
had an office there. It might be well to check in California to see
how they transacted their business there.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Barker, during the period from 1931 to 1939,
which is covered by your examination of the bank accounts, during
a period of approximately 8y2 years, it appears that Pelley deposited
over $200,000 in various accounts, and that he cashed money orders
at the post-office window. Xow, during that time do you find that
he had any other source of income other than that derived from
the various organizations which he was operating?
Mr. Barker. I cannot find any other source of income.
94031— 39— vol. 6 35
4246 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. If he had any other source of income, outside of
the various organizations that he operated, and which you have
described, you could not find it?
Mr. Barker. I could not find it, Of course, this gift from Mrs.
Marie Ogden apparently did not reach any bank account.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether that was in conjunction
with, or the result of, the activities or operations of these organiza-
tions, or not ?
Mr. Barker. Apparently, it was the result of his spiritualistic
teachings, and so forth, that this lady gave him.
Mr. Whitley. Which grew out of the organization he was oper-
ating?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. In carrying on the operations, and getting them
enthused with his work, some of those people came through with
contributions ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Does Pelley have a Washington office ?
Mr. B.'Rker. Yes, sir; he has a Washington office.
Mr. Whitley. Where is that office located?
Mr. Barker. 229 Bond Building.
Mr. Whitley. Is the office in his name?
Mr. Barker. No, sir; that office is in the name of David Babp,
an attorney.
Mr. Whitley. Does he represent Mr. Pelley ?
Mr. Barker. Not of record in the United States district court,
that I could find, but I found checks payable to him from Pelley.
I found one check for $170.
Mr. Whitley. How long has Pelley maintained that office in
Washington ?
Mr. Barker. Apparently it has been rented some time. There are
other people in the office from time to time.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know who some of the others are that use
that office as headquarters?
Mr. Barker. Lawrence Brown, known as Larry Brown, who is one
of Pelley's Washington representatives?
Mr. Whitley. In what capacity?
Mr. Barker. As a sleuth, who goes around.
Mr. Whitley. Does he do any writing?
Mr. Barker. Not that I know of. He has another representa-
tive here, D. D. Mayne, from Springfield, Va. He frequently calls
Pelley on long distance.
Mr. Whitley. Is he associated with Pelley in any way?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; as a representative around here.
Mr. Whitley. Has he received funds from Pelley?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. In what capacity does he represent him ?
Mr. Barker. That would be hard to say. I do not know. He is
just another representative. There is another one, Fraser S.
Gardner.
Mr. Whitley. Did Mr. Gardner use the office of Pelley in Wash-
ington as a headquarters?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; he made telephone calls from that office to
Pelley.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4247
Mr. Whitley. Do you have a record of (hose telephone calls ?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir. Gardner made a total of 2!) Long-distance
telephone rails to Pelley, or to Policy's ollleo. No. 4810, Asheville,
N. C, which is the telephone number of the Skyland Press, from
February 19, 1939, to July 15, 1939. During thai period of time
Fraser S. Gardner made a total of 29 telephone calls to Pelley or to
PeUey's office at Asheville, N. C. We found that Pelley, or Pelley's
office, had calls made collect, and charges were paid. The calls were
made from various telephones around here in Washington, D. C.
One was from Emerson 01:50, which is the telephone of Mr. Fraser
S. Gardner, at 3224 Wisconsin Avenue NW.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman do you recall what date Mr. Gardner
appeared before the committee to be examined in connection with
his application?
The Chairman. His first appearance?
Mr. Whitley. Yes, sir.
Th Chairman. I do not know.
Mr. Whitley. It was about the 1st of February.
The Chairman. It was after February, was it not? Probably it
was about February.
Mr. Whitley. About the middle of February. The first long-
distance, call from Mr. Gardner to Peley was February 19, 1939.
These telephone calls occurred rather frequently. Mr. Gardner
made 29 calls in that comparatively short period of time. Does
your record just cover the calls made by Gardner to Pelley?
Mr. Barker. Pelley made calls to Gardner. He made calls to the
office in Washington. He made calls from his office in Asheville.
Mr. Whitley. He was calling from his own office or residence
in Asheville for Gardner at his office or residence in Washington.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; I will give you the calls. Of course, you
have to go back to this proposition. Pelley did not call — when
Pelley called he did not call under the name of Pelley. Pelley would
call under the name of Goodale. That is Pelley's name for telephone
calls, and that was his mother's name.
Mr. Whitley. Does he use that name rather frequently?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir ; in making telephone calls he does.
Here is a telephone call from Goodale, from Emerson 0430, Wash-
ington, calling Asheville 4810, under date of May 20, 1939. That
would indicate that Pelley was out there at Gardner's house calling
his office at Asheville.
Mr. Voorhis. How did you discover that he uses that name for
telephone calls?
Mr. Barker. That is in that correspondence.
Mr. Thomas. In what correspondence?
Mr. Barker. Between Pelley and the other people in the organi-
zation. He signed his name Goodale.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Barker, does anyone else, to your knowledge, use
Pelley's Washington office as headquarters? You mentioned Mr.
Lawrence Brown and Mr. Mayne.
Mr. Barker. Brown — I mentioned him; no, that is all; there are
four of them. The telephone number at that point is National 3587.
Mr. Whitley. Do the records show that the long distance calls
were made from that number to Pelley in Asheville?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir ; and from Asheville to that number.
4248 L\\ -AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Whitley. Do you have a complete list or record of those long-
distance telephone calls?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You referred to Pelley's Washington office. Do you
know whether he pays the rent of that office, or does he just use it
when he is in town \
Mr. Barker. I do not know. I do not know what the arrangement
is between himself and Mr. David Babp, his lawyer. Pelley sends
Babp checks all the time. I do not know whether he pays the rent or
not. but he sends checks.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Babp receives a regular re-
tainer, or a certain amount weekly or monthly?
Mr. Barker. I could not say ; I do not know that. Pelley's agents
have been calling him from other telephones in Washington, located
at various places.
Mr. Whitley. Will you give us those numbers?
Mr. Barker. Metropolitan 9092. That is a public telephone in the
United Cigar Stores, 1400 New York Avenue. Metropolitan 8711;
that is a public telephone at the same place.
Mr. Voorhis. These are calls that went from Washington to Ashe-
ville?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; collect, from either Mayne or from Gardner,
or Lawrence Brown, or from Goodale.
Mr. Thomas. How do you know these calls were made by these
people ?
Mr. Barker. Their names are listed here. Here is Metropolitan
9092. That is the public telephone, and Mayne is calling Miss Hender-
son at Asheville 4810, collect, $2.50, charges accepted. Here is one
from Metropolitan 9803. That is in the House Office Building. That
was a telephone call to Pelley.
Mr. Thomas. Made from the House Office Building?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. Have you any record as to who made that call ?
Mr. Barker. I could find that for you in a minute. That was
Gardner, on May 19, 1939, Gardner calling Miss Henderson at Ashe-
ville. That is Miss Marion Henderson, secretary of Pelley.
Mr. Whitley. That call was made from the House Office Building?
Mr. Barker. That telephone is located in the House Office Building.
Mr. Whitley. A public telephone?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; a nonlisted telephone.
Mr. Whitley. Were there any other telephone calls ?
Mr. Barker. Here is one from Lincoln 10344, which is in the Senate
Office Building.
The Chairman. What is that number?
Mr. Barker. Lincoln 10344.
The Chairman. What do you mean by a nonlisted telephone.
Mr. Barker. The number is not published.
The Chairman. Where is that last telephone located?
Mr. Barker. That is in the Senate Office Building.
The Chairman. What about the one in the House Office Building?
Mr. Barker. That is also a nonlisted number.
The Chairman. You do not know whom that call was from?
Mr. Barker. No.
Mr. Thomas. You do not know where they talked from in the
building?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4249
Mr. Barker. No.
Mr. Whitley. Who made the call from the Senate Office Building?
Mr. Barker. Just a second, and I will find that.
Mr. Thomas. I think, Mr. Attorney, you should find where thai
nonlisted telephone is located in the House Office Building.
Mr. Whitley. All right, sir.
Mr. Barker. That was Gardner calling Pelley.
Mr. Whitley. From the Lincoln number?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; from the Senate Office Building, on the
same day, May 19, 1939.
Mr. Whitley. That is just about the time the committee started
public hearings in May, or shortly before that, I believe.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. You do not know whose name that telephone is
listed in?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Are there any other telephone calls on that list,
Mr. Barker, that might be of interest?
Mr. Barker. Here is one from District 8822, which is the Burling-
ton Hotel, and here is another one from
Mr. Whitley. Who made that call?
Mr. Barker. Here it is; that was on June 20, 1939; that was
Goodale calling Asheville.
Mr. Whitley. That was Pelley calling his Asheville office?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. Where was he calling from at that time?
Mr. Barker. The Burlington Hotel.
Mr. Whitley. Are there any other calls that might be of interest?
Mr. Barker. Here is one in the Capitol, Metropolitan 9692 ; a tele-
phone call was made to Pelley.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know by whom?
Mr. Barker. I have my notes on this, and I will have to look that
up.
The Chairman. What is that, a nonlisted telephone?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir ; in the Capitol.
Mr. Whitley. Do you know what the date of that call was? You
can get that later.
Mr. Barker. It is possible that these nonlisted phones might have
been pay stations, because pay station numbers are not published; it
does not mean it is a nonlisted phone; it could have been a pay
station in that building.
Mr. Whitley. Have you any other information with reference to
telephone calls that might be of interest?
Mr. Barker. I find telephone calls listed on here between Pelley
and George Deatherage.
Mr. Whitley. At St. Albans, W. Va. ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; and calls to Pelley from his various repre-
sentatives all over the country, Roy Zachary and Roy Thompson.
The Chairman. Do you have any calls listed there to or from
Royal Oak, Mich. ?
Mr. Barker. No telephone calls to Roal Oak, Mich., but some tele-
grams to Royal Oak, Mich., and those telegrams went to M. Helen
Pelley, at Royal Oak.
The Chairman. His wife?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
4250 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. She was in Royal Oak, Mich., and the telegrams
were sent to her?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And charged?
Mr. Barker. To Pelley's telephone in Asheville.
Mr. Whitley. Were there any telephone calls to Henry D. Allen?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
Mr. Whitley. Or to any other of the group, to James True?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
The Chairman. Is that a list of the telephone calls }'ou have there?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Will you let me see that ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir [handing list to the chairman].
There are some telephone calls between Pelley and Mr. George
Fisher, the gentlemen who gave him $4,600.
The Chairman. Who is Oscar Ferrer, calling from Cincinnati,
Ohio? Do you know who he is?
Mr. Barker. No, sir; I have no information on him.
The Chairman. Do you know who Dr. Fred Zachary is; is he kin
to Roy Zachary?
Mr. Barker. That is Roy Zachary's brother.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, may I refer to another part of the
record for a moment ?
The Chairman. Certainly.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Attorney, I want to refer to the testimony of
Mr. Fritz Kuhn, on Thursday, August 17, 1939. I asked this ques-
tion, or made this statement to Mr. Kuhn :
Mr. Thomas. At any rate, what I am trying to bring out is this. You made
a statement yesterday that Mr. Baruch had a meeting with Mr. Stalin, and
that that was in the leading New York papers.
Mr. Kuhn. I will furnish you with those clippings.
Mr. Thomas. How soon will you be able to get those clippings? Can you send
for them today so that we can get them tomorrow?
Mr. Kuhn. I do not think so; because two of my men are out of town.
Mr. Thomas. Will you make certain that the committee counsel receives
these clippings, because we have been unable to find such a statement in the
New York papers.
Mr. Kuhn. I will be glad to send them to you.
It is my understanding, Mr. Attorney, that you wrote Mr. Kuhn
a letter and asked him for such clippings.
Mr. Whitley. Within 2 days after he was dismissed as a witness;
I do not know whether it was the following day or a day later, I
wrote him a letter reuniting him of that portion of lv's testimony
and your request, and asked him to send those clippings. At that
time I also asked him to send a list of the local organizations, with
the leader of each, which he had promised to Mr. Starnes.
Mr. Thomas. You wrote that letter how long ago ?
Mr. Barker. Within 2 days after he was here. I think the last
day he was on the stand was the 18th or 19th.
Mr. Thomas. The date of this particular testimony which I read
was August 17.
Mr. Whitley. I believe that was the first day.
Mr. Thomas. You wrote to him about 10 days ago and you have
received no answer?
Mr. Whitley. That is correct. Incidentally, he is still under
subpena, as are several of his associates. I will follow that up, and
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4251
if it is not forthcoming will serve a subpena duces tecum to have
him produce it personally.
Mr. Thomas. I am of the opinion that this man Kuhn never had
such clippings from leading New York papers. Further,, if he fails
to produce such clippings it will definitely show that Kuhn's state-
ments about Mr. Barucn and Mr. Untermeyer were false, and but
another verse in Kuhn's hymn of hate. Further, Kuhn's continued
failure to produce these news items is the most conclusive proof that
this professional hater by his own statements, therefore, should be
discredited by even his own followers, and I would suggest, Mr.
Attorney, that you write Mr. Kuhn immediately and ask him to de-
liver the clippings, and the other information you want, and if you
do not ffet it right away, we ought to bring him again before the
committee very soon.
Mr. Whitley. All right, sir; I will do that.
The Chairman. "Who is Thompson whom he talked to so often?
Mr. Barker. Roy Thompson; that is one of Pelley's agents.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Barker, has Mr. Pelley ever filed any lawsuits
ni brought any litigation here in the District of Columbia?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; I found two lawsuits he had in the United
States District Court for the District of Columbia. The first of these
was a bill in equity asking for an injunction, filed January 26, 1938,
by the Silver Shirt Legion of America, a Delaware corporation,
and Spencer J. Warwick, of 24 Hilton Avenue, Youngstown, Ohio,
as plaintiff, filed against the Committee on Education and Labor of
the United States Senate, and the Subcommittee on Education and
Labor of the United States Senate, Senator Elbert D. Thomas, and
Senator Robert M. La Follette, Jr. This bill is too long to read into
the record.
Mr. Whitley. What is the substance of it?
Mr. Barker. It is 24 pages long, and it is mimeographed.
Mr. Whitley. What is the substance of the statements contained
in the bill?
Mr. Barker. The substance of the statements made in the bill to
the court is that the Silver Shirt Legion is an organization of more
than 5,000 members; that John L. Lewis, Robert M. La Follettee, Jr.,
and some more liberal-minded people got together at the Cosmos Club
in Washington, and according to magazine Fight, decided to get a
resolution passed to investigate spies in labor organizations and
industrial plants. A resolution was passed by the Senate authorizing
such an inquiry to be conducted. Of course, I am reading now from
the bill — that the committee set up offices there in the Senate Office
Building and retained investigators, some of whom could not speak
the English language; that Robert Wohlforth, the chief investigator,
was a Communist, and that a subpena duces tecum has been issued
by the committee for the appearance of Spencer J. Warwick, chief
ranger of the Silver Shirts at Youngstown, Ohio, to make him bring
with him various records, including the Foundation for Christian
Economics, that the committee was on a fishing expedition, and that
the subpena was null and void, illegal and unconstitutional. There
is a great long list of irrevelant and immaterial allegations.
The Chairman. What is the materiality of this?
Mr. Barker. I am coming to that point. Attached to this bill,
which was sworn to by Pelley personally on January 25, 1938, in
4252 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Washington, the bill was filed by Harrison Fargo McConnell, as
attorney for Pelley, and attached to it was a copy of the bylaws of the
Silver Shirts and a certified copy of the incorporation of the Silver
Shirts.
Mr. Whitley. You say that bill was mimeographed ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir ; it was mimeographed.
Mr. Whitley. For what purpose?
Mr. Barker. It was distributed all over the country at the date
it was filed.
Mr. Whitley. Any portion of the bylaws
Mr. Barker. Here is something I noticed in the bylaws, under
paragraph IV. The Silver Shirts is divided up into the New England
division, the Manhattan division, the Capital division, the Southern
division, the Gulf division, the Great Lakes division, the Prairie
division, the Mountain division, and the Pacific division.
Now, it saj^s here, continuing down, there is a numerical paragraph.
No. 5, and it is called the "department of foreign affiliates," presided
over by the general staff, or its appointees for that specific purpose,,
which comprises membership of persons endorsing the principles
and purposes of the corporation, meaning the Silver Shirt Legion,
but not necessarily natives or naturalized citizens of the United
States or residents therein. In other words, there is membership of
the Silver Shirt Legion which extends to foreigners.
Mr. Whiteey. In other words the constitution sets up a foreign
division to organize and maintain contacts with foreign organiza-
tions?
Mr. Barker. Foreign affiliates; that is the bylaws; that is not the
constitution.
The Chairman. That is not in the constitution, but it is in the by-
laws ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So, under the bylaws they have a department of
foreign affiliates?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And anyone who believes in the purposes of the
Silver Shirts can be a member of that department, even though
he is a citizen of some other country and resides in some other
country ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So Germans. Italians, Englishmen, or anyone
else can be members of the Silver Shirts?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir ; that is on page 5 of the bill. It says that
the members shall have no vote or choice in the management of the
affairs of the corporation, except the officers of the corporation, who
shall have exclusive voting power, and the president, or the national
commander — that is Pelley — shall be entitled to five votes, the treas-
urer, or comptroller, shall be entitled to two votes; that is A. H.
Talpey at the present time, and the secretary, who is at the present
time Roy Zachary, shall be entitled to one vote for election of the
board of directors or general staff, and upon all other matters to be
acted upon by the members.
The Chairman. In other words, Pelley is in complete control?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4253
The Chairman. Ho has five votes, and everybody else
Mr. Barker. Has three.
The Chairman. Has three votes?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So he is the absolute dictator of the Silver Shirt
Leg' on I
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Which he says has more than 5,000 members?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. He says that under oath?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. He said that sometime ago, did he not?
Mr. Barker. In January 193S.
Mr. Thomas. And under oath?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. What kind of matters are to be decided by this vote,
where the membership has one vote and the commander has five and
all the rest of the people have three? What kind of matters do they
decide ?
Mr. Barker. They decide everything.
Mr. Voorhis. In other words, matters of policy, matters of organ-
ization, and which members are supposed to be on the board of
directors?
Mr. Barker. And finances; yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. The control of finances is all in Mr. Pelley's hands?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. Under IV of the bylaws it says that mem-
bers and affiliates shall be required to pay dues and assessments of
$12 per year each to the parent corporation, or its duly designated
department officers, or $1 per month, the first $1 accompanying
the application for admittance, and the remaining dollars left being
paid as convenient, over the ensuing 11 months. However, this sum
may be paid for by others than the applicant, or may be allotted
to that person's credit from the contributions and donations made in
excess of this sum or sums, at the direction of the general staff,
according to circumstances.
The Chairman. In other words, providing for dues of $12 a year
by members of the legion?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. And they have over 5.000 members; according to
his sworn statement thev have over 5,000 members.
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. If that is true, and if he has collected $12 a year,
then he is getting 5,000 times $12 a year from the Legion alone?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. Under the bylaws, if a man does not pay his
dues, or someone else pay them for him, he is kicked out, is he not?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Here is a special provision regarding contributions. Contribu-
tions, donations, and endowments shall be similarly divided under
similar circumstances unless they shall be in excess of the sum of
$500, when specific rulings and mandates of the general staff shall
apply.
4254 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
They divided that dollar up, 50 cents to the local post and 25 cents
to the divisional post, and 25 cents to the general headquarters at
Asheville.
The Chairman. Unless it is more than $500, in which event the
commander can make a different distribution, is that right?
Mr. Barker. It is the general staff, where Pelley has five votes
to three.
The Chairman. The small money is divided up so that the post
gets 25 cents, and the divisional office gets 25 cents, and Pelley gets
25 cents.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. But if it is over $500, they could make different
rulings and orders with reference to the distribution of the pro-
ceeds, the profits?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
They presented their bill in the District Court of the United
States for the District of Columbia, and the court ordered them to
file an amended bill striking out all of this irrelevant, immaterial,
and incompetent allegation about meetings at the Cosmos Club, and
so forth. They went back and filed a 16-page amended bill on
February 3, 1938. That came on for a hearing.
In the meantime, they had served all these Senators, personal
service or service accepted, and the defendant, La Follette, filed a
motion to dismiss the bill. A special assistant to the Attorney
General apeared for him, together with the United States attorney
and assistant United States attorney. They filed a brief citing the
case of Hearst v. Black.
Finally, on February 23, 1938, Justice Jennings Bailey signed a
decree dismissing the amended bill of complaint, and in his ruling,
in longhand, he said it was difficult to determine just what relief is
sought by the prayers of the amended bill.
But the substance seems to be to enjoin the committee and subcom-
mittee from enforcing the mandate of a subpena requiring the pro-
duction of papers and documents of the plaintiff, Silver Shirt Legion.
This case is controlled by the case of Hearst v. Black, 87 Federal
The Chairman. I do not think it is necessary to go into that.
Mr. Barker. Anyway, he dismissed it and they excepted and
prayed an appeal. They carried the case to the District Court of
Appeals, and the District Court of Appeals affirmed the judgment
of the lower court.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, it is not clear to me on whose behalf
this suit was filed.
Mr. Barker. It was filed on behalf of the Silver Shirt Legion of
Delaware and Spencer Warwick, chief ranger of the Silver Shirt
Leg'on at Youngstown, Ohio.
Mr. Whitley. You mentioned a moment ago the officers; are the
three you mentioned the only officers of the Silver Shirt Legion?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. The examination of the Silver Shirts re-
ports at Dover, Del., showed that Pelley is national commander or
president; Talpey is treasurer or comptroller; and Roy Zachary is
secretary or registrar.
Mr. Whitley. Those are the only three national officers?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Whitley. And they are called the general staff?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4255
Mr. Barker. The general staff. Pelley started another law-nil
in the District of Columbia, the United States district court. This
was a lawsuit on the law side. This other was on the equity side.
This suit was brought on the relation of the United States of America
and William Dudley Pelley. It was filed against Harold L. Ickes
and John Collier, as individuals. May 28, 1938, No. 90224.
The declaration in this lawsuit alleges that after Secretary Ickes
got into office and John Collier was appointed Commissioner of Indian
Affairs, they entered into a conspiracy to defraud the United States
by using money unlawfully in the publication of a periodical called
Indians at Work.
Mr. Whitley. Who filed that petition for Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Barker. Harrison Fargo McConnell.
Mr. Whitley. Was that petition also mimeographed?
Mr. Barker. Xo, sir; this was not mimeographed. It was sworn
to by Pelley personally.
The Chairman. What is the material part of the petition?
Mr. Barker. I was just coming to that. Pelley said here that as
a result of the publication of that periodical, which was not author-
ized by law, a man by the name of Frederick C. Collett filed a
lawsuit against Ickes and Collier, case Xo. 85496, for $200,000, claim-
ing he had been libelled by Ickes and Collier, and that Ickes then
went out and employed a lot of private lawyers to defend that
lawsuit of Collett's and Pelley brought this lawsuit under chapter
67 of the Laws of 1863, and he prayed for $200,000 damage.
Process in that case was duly issued by the clerk of the court
to the United States marshal for service on Harold L. Ickes and
John Collier, and he returned the process with a notation that the
above named were not to be found.
Mr. Whitley. Was any disposition ever made of that matter?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. On May 9, 1939, the clerk dismissed the
case for want of prosecution.
Mr. Voorhis. Who was it that was not to be found in that case?
Mr. Barker. Harold L. Ickes and John Collier.
Mr. Mason. On what grounds was he suing them for damage to
the extent of $200,000?
Mr. B \rkfr. On the ground that they had entered into a conspir-
acy to defraud the United States by allowing illegal claims.
Mr. Mason, Was that a damage to him?
Mr. Barker. No. He brought this suit on the relation of the
United States; it was United States ex rel.
The Chairman. There is one point here that I cannot get clear
in my mind. You say that the money orders covered the period
September 1, 1937, to July 8, 1939. Was there any attempt to trace
the money orders prior to that date?
Mr. Barker. No, sir. That period prior to September 1, 1937 —
I did not go back prior to that date because that was the date upon
which the Skyland Press started operations.
The Chairman. You just started from the date the Skyland
Press started operations?
Mr. B/rker. Yes, sir. I did not go back prior to September 1,
1937, on his money-order account.
The Chairman. Did he have money-order accounts prior to 1937,
September 1?
4256 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. You mean money orders cashed at the window?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Yon do not know how much that came to from
1931 to 1937?
Mr. Barker. No, sir. It would take several weeks to ascertain
that.
The Chairman. It would be a tedious job.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. You would have to check through all the
money orders.
The Chairman. It might be interesting to know what his total
income was.
Mr. Yoorhis. In that same connection I want to ask a question.
Pelley claimed 5,000 members for the Silver Shirts. If these 5,000
members actually paid $12 a year, which they were supposed to do,
that would have brought in $60,000 annually. These money orders
that you spoke of, some $32,000 or $34,000 worth of them — some-
thing like that, was it not?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. That he cashed, I suppose those could have been
Silver Shirt dues, could they not? There is no way of telling
whether they were or not?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Some of them I suppose evidently were not because
of the fact that they were obviously from people who had bought
the printed material from him, is that right?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. What do you suppose happened to the dues from
these 5,000 members ?
Mr. Barker. I could not say, Mr. Voorhis.
The Chairman. Of course, you assume 5,000 members. He says
there were more than 5,000, and in his book he says that he had many
times 5.000. He claimed more than that number in California alone.
Mr. Voorhis. That is what I am trying to get at.
Mr. Thomas. The amount of these money orders would show
whether they were for dues or not, would they not?
Mr. Barker. No, sir. You would only arrive at that as a conclu-
sion ; it would not be definite.
Mr. Voorhis. That is right.
Mr. Thomas. Also, were not the money orders made out to a dif-
ferent organization than the one to which the dues were payable?
Mr. Barker. Some of these money orders came payable to Talpey ;
some of them to Pelley Publishers; some of them to the Foundation
Fellowship.
Mr. Thomas. And some to the Skyland Press?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Did the Silver Shirt Legion ever keep any books
that you could discover?
Mr. Barker. Only after a receiver was appointed for Galahad
Press did the Silver Shirt Legion have a bank account, and then that
stopped.
Mr. Voorhis. They did not have any bank account at all before
that?
Mr. Barker. No ; and they have not had any since that I can find.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4257
Mr. Vooiuus. In other words, the plain fact of the matter is that
nobody know- what happened to these dues.
Mr. Thomas. Amounting to about $00,000 a year.
Mr. Barker. According to these bylaws
Mr. Yoomns. Assuming that they paid and assuming that he had
the number of members that he said he had.
Mr. Thomas. You have not found out how the money came in
or where it went to after it came in?
Mr. Barker. No, sir. In this first suit that he tiled in the District
of Columbia Supreme Court, the Foundation for Christian Econom-
ics, they said, had been inactive since 1932. Pelley swore to that
bill of complaint.
On February 19, 1935, another set of lawyers appeared for Pelley
in the Federal court at Asheville, and filed a brief on behalf of the
respondents, Silver Shirt Legion, and the Foundation for Christian
Economic.-, in which they claimed that the Foundation for Christian
Economics was a separate corporation, a going concern.
The Chairman. Did you have any way of knowing who the mem-
bers were of these affiliates?
Mr. Barker. No.
The Chairman. Does the record show very definitely — and we will
go into that, I hope, pretty soon — that propaganda material from
Germany was sent to Pelley i
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And that Pelley incorporated that material in his
publications.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Without giving any credit to its source-
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So it may well be that some of the propaganda
agents abroad were members of the foreign affiliate department?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And were supplying this material to Pelley for
publication.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Where is the list of the incoming mail? Do you
have it there (
Mr. Barker. Xo, sir; but I can get it in a few minutes.
The Chairman. I should like to see that. There is in that list of
incoming mail a list of a number of communications from Hamburg,
Germany.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. To Pelley.
Mr. Barker. To Pelley.
The Chairman. Were there any shipments that you have been able
to trace, in bulk, from Germany to Pelley?
Mr. Barker. Xo, sir.
The Chairman. All you know is that he got communications from
Hamburg, Germany?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. From what other place in Germany did he get
communications?
Mr. Barker. I think that is principally where his communications
came from, Hamburg. Germany.
4258 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. What, were the names of some of the Germans
who sent him these communications?
Mr. Barker. There was one American over there that Pelley cor-
responded with. I do not have his name right here. As soon as that
list gets here, I can give you that.
Mr. "Voorhis. Did he correspond with Johannas Klapproth?
Mr. Barker. I do not think I found that name.
The Chairman. Have you read Pelley's publications over a period
of time?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; I have read considerable of them.
The Chairman. And did you find, taking it as a whole, that it
was constantly championing the side of Nazi Germany?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; propaganda for Germany is what it appears
to be.
Mr. Voorhis. As a matter of fact, did you not read a passage in
his book where he made the claim that he was the first person in
America who had openly defended the Hitler regime ?
The Chairman. In his magazine. Now. that goes back to the
question that I raised yesterday with reference to this registration
law. It applies to anyone who is the agent for a foreign govern-
ment; publicity agent. I think it is broad enough certainly to
cover Pelley's case. Here is a man who has an organization with
a foreign affiliate department. We know that he is corresponding
with people abroad, with Germans abroad. We know that he gets
propaganda sent to him from foreign countries and incorporates it
as his own, in his publications. What more would make a man an
agent of a foreign government than that ; what more could a man
do to classify himself as a publicity agent for a foreign government ?
I should like to refer to that act. It seems that we have before
us concrete evidence of all of the facts necessary to constitute a
man a publicity agent of a foreign government.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, that act was amended during the
last session of Congress, I believe.
The Chairman. I know it was amended so as to make it broader.
Mr. Whitley. That is right.
The Chairman. I have the amendments and the law itself. It
says that the term agent of a foreign principal means any person
who acts or engages or agrees to act as a public relations counsel,
publicity agent, or as agent, servant, representative, or attorney for
a foreign principal.
So that there does not have to be any specific agreement; if he
just acts as a publicity agent, that covers it.
Here is a man who distributes a million pieces of literature a year.
And some of his literature is Nazi propaganda, word for word. He
uses, as I understand, some of the German sources
Mr. Whitley. That is correct.
The Chairman. And you have compared it with what is contained
in Pelley's publications, have you not?
Mr. Whitley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And they are word for word the same?
Mr. Whitley. That is right.
Mr. Mason. I would think that he would have to be officially
recognized by that government as their agent. He could not estab-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4259
lish himself as an agent without their sanction or their oflieial
recognition.
The Chairman. It docs not say that. It says that the term "agent"
is any person who acts for — in other words, if Pelly acts as publicity
agent for the Nazi government, whether they agreed to it or whether
there was any agreement, so far as he is concerned, he is an agent
of the Nazi government.
Mr. Thomas. I agree with yon, Mr. Chairman. I think it is a
matter for the Department of Justice, and I believe, if we have not
already done so, we should communicate this information to the De-
partment of Justice. Certainly, the Department of Justice, after
they got this information from us. should act as quickly as possible,
particularly in view of the upset conditions abroad today.
The Chairman. Here is a man who has a million pieces of liter-
ature going out. He mails as much as 15,000 at one time. The post
office has to put on additional personnel to take care of his business.
It goes to all parts of the United States. It is sent by express and
by parcel post and other methods.
If he is not a publicity agent of the Nazi government and a propa-
gandist, I do not know how under any circumstances anvbody could
be.
It seems to me the Department of Justice has a clear-cut case to
proceed against Mr. Pelley. These district attorneys certainly can
find some law to hold a man accountable for such wholesale fleecing
of people, taking funds and misusing them and diverting them to
other purposes. If a man can get by with that kind of thing in this
country then there is not any such thing as protection.
Mr. "Thomas. Mr. Attorney, have you communicated with the
Department of Justice about this?
Mr. Whitley. I have not. I have not had the opportunity.
Mr. Thomas. When do you expect to do it?
Mr. Whitley. If I get a little time, this afternoon.
Mr. Thomas. This afternoon?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
Mr. Yooriiis. Mr. Barker, have you there, in the study that you
have made of Mr. Pelley's publications, a statement in his published
material of what his aims and purposes are; why he is doing all of
this: what he is trying to accomplish?
The Chairm.ax. It is all right in here. He says what his purpose
is in forming the legion. He admits, if it is necessary, to use force,
then let us use force. He says that is his purpose.
Mr. Barker. He wants to segregate all the Jews.
Mr. Thomas. He wants to segregate all the Jews?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir. He wants to form a commonwealth.
Mr. Thomas. A what?
Mr. Barker. A commonwealth.
Mr. Thomas. What does he mean by that?
Mr. Barker. In which all native-born citizens will receive one
share of stock and $83.39 a month forever.
Mr. Thomas. So he would incorporate the United States?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
Mr. Mason. I would classify all of those objectives as bait held out
to net monev.
4260 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Voorhis. So would I.
Mr. Mason. And that is all.
Mr. Barker. He sold a lot of copies of that book.
Mr. Voorhis. Is there any place, other than the one the chairman
has just mentioned, in his publications, that you have seen, where he
tells how he proposes to accomplish this purpose?
Mr. Barker. He proposes to accomplish it by educating the popu-
lation and forming the Silver Legion. He said the Silver Legion is
o-oino; to grow to a million members and become the most active or-
ganization in America, eventually.
Mr. Voorhis. Then what is going to happen ?
Mr. B \rker. Then they will take charge.
The Chairman. When you read what he says about what hap-
pened in California and Oklahoma — the riots, the situation that de-
veloped— why, he goes out and hires officers in the Reserve Corps to
train these men, and he says, if necessary, if this meant the use of
force to hurl a great regime of scoundrels from the country — I do not
know who he meant by the regime of scoundrels — then, very well, it
means force. The man does not conceal what his purposes are He
does not conceal the fact that he is sympathetic with Nazi Germany.
And that he is the first man in this country to champion the cause of
Hitler.
Mr. Voorhis. He also made the statement, as I remember, that in
California there were more members of the Silver Shirts than there
were members of the police force and the National Guard put to-
gether. I do not know whether he attached any significance to that.
The Chairman. I have here a list of some of the people who have
been writing to him, sending him communications.
For instance, Harmony Book Shop, 112 West One Hundred and
Fortv-ninth Street, New York City. What is the Harmony Book
Shop?
Mr. Barker. That is a store that deals in publications. They
probably ordered that for other parties.
You see, Pellev Publications attacked the Jews, day and night, "24
hours a day and 7 days in the week. The Jews are constantly writing
to Pellev for his publications They constitute — I would say a con-
servative estimate — about 10 percent of Pelley's income ; that is, from
the Jews, because they keep track of him and what he is saying about
them. And they are on his list all the time.
The Chairman. What is the Germania Book and Specialty Shop?
Mr. Barker. That is a store in New York that has ordered a lot
of books from Pellev from time to time.
The Chairman. Isn't that a bookshop that is connected with the
bund ?
Mr. Barker They have handled a lot of bund stuff and German
newspapers and publications, and so forth.
The Chairman. Who is Hugo Eger? I believe you testified con-
cerning him before, did you not?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Here is listed James True.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Dr. George Knapp. Who is Dr. George Knapp?
Mr. Barker. That is Dr. George Knapp who has been stopping at
rX-AMKIUCAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4261
the Taft Hotel in Now York. He has had a lot of correspondence
-with Pelley over a considerable period. I was not able to find out
who he was.
The Chairman. There are a number of communications from
Fraser Gardner; from Mr. D. D. Mayne; who is Dr. Joseph G.
Weber, Chicago, 111.? Did you find out who he was?
Mr. Barker. 1 have not got anything on that. 1 only got that list
just before the hearings started.
The Chairman. Do you know about the Book Box, in Pasadena,
Calif.?
Mr. Barker. No.
The Chairman. Here is Aage Larsen, United Stalwart Americans,
Chicago, 111. What is that organization?
Mr. Barker. That is one of those Letterhead organizations.
The Chairman. Miss Sarah C. Scott; that is the woman you have
testified about?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. Also Mrs. Roy Zachery; Virginia L. Meyer, at
the Aloha Metaphysical Bookshop.
I see that the Germania Book and Specialty Store has quite a bit
of correspondence.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And Hans Deibl, who has been identified as one
of the bund representatives on the west coast.
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; Los Angeles.
The Chairman. Who is Mrs. Edna Covert, 3 Oxford Building,
Royal Oak, Mich.?
Mr. Barker. She is the lady that Mrs. PelW stayed with when
those telegrams went up to her at Royal Oak. I do not know her
identity.
The ^Chairman. Who is Ewald Markfort, Royal Oak, Mich.?
Mr. Barker. I do not know him.
The Chairman. What is the Book Den, Santa Barbara, Calif.?
Mr. Barker. That is one of those book stores that orders Pelley
publications.
The Chairman. Gentile News Agency?
Mr. Barker. That is that outfit in New York, is it not? Is not
the address New York? They handle all of these publications.
The Chairman. This one is at Glenbrook, Conn.
Mr. Barker. There is one in New York, too, I think.
The Chairman. The Aryan Book Store; that is in Chicago, 111.?
Mr. Barker. That is the same as Hans Deibl out in Los Angeles.
The Chairman. There is a Dr. George Knapp and a Dr. J. L.
Knapp. Are they brothers or kin to each other?
Mr. Barker. I think that is the same person.
The Chairman. Who is Dr. Emma C. Koch, at 1556 Broadway,
Oakland, Calif.?
Mr. Barker. I have not had an opportunity to find out. Some of
these book stores, to which they send this material, are book stores on
wheels. They are fastened to the back of an automobile, and they go
to all these meetings of the German American Bund and the Silver
Legion, and all of these affiliated organizations, and sell that litera-
94931—39 — vol. 6 36
4262 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
ture. They go to other meetings, too, except meetings of the Ameri-
can League for Peace and Democracy.
The Chairman. Who is Dr. George DePottere, Budapest, Hungary ?
Mr. Barker. I do not know what his connection is with Pelley.
The Chairman. He has been writing to Pelley?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; you will find his name there several times.
The Chairman. Who is Mistretta Salvatore, New York City?
Mr. Barker. That is a person who gets Pelley's literature from
time to time. I found some express shipments to her.
The Chairman. Who is the Honorable Jacob Thorkelson?
Mr. Barker. He is a Member of Congress from Montana, I under-
stand.
The Chairman. J. C. Jeffres; is he the Reverend Joe Jeffres who
was tried out in California?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is he connected with Pelley?
Mr. Barker. Apparently he is. I have found some shipments to
him.
The Chairman. Who is Edward J. Moynet, district judge, eastern
district of Michigan ? Is he a Federal judge out there ?
Mr. Barker. That is a Federal judge in Michigan. Of course, I
do not know whether some one used his stationery or whether there
was some one in his office who was writing, but a letter with a return
address on it was handled by the post office.
The Chairman. Republic Steel Corporation ; the Book Den : Amer-
ican Action.
The Chairman. Who is this Pacific Society of Seattle; did you
ever hear of that?
Mr. Barker. No.
The Chairman. Hamburg, Germany; Hamburg 36 Hamburger
Highway. You do not know who the person in Hamburg is?
Mr. Barker. No. Apparently there is an American there as that
name appears in the correspondance with Pelley frequently.
The Chairman. Silver Drill; do you know what that is?
Mr. Barker. I do not.
The Chairman. The Municipal Reference Library, Chicago, 111.
Mr. Barker. Considerable of Pelley's publications go to libraries
around over the country; some of them keep them and some of them
send them back.
The Chairman. The House of Representatives is used quite fre-
quently as a forwarding address.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. So that some of the mail to him comes to him to
the House of Representatives.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. Thomas E. Bateman, clerk of the Ohio Senate.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. It states who he is, clerk of the Ohio Senate.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. The Metropolitan Life Insurance Co.; Bateman,
clerk of the Ohio Senate. It is evident that literature from Pelley
roadies practically every State in the Union, that an enormous num-
ber of pamphlets are sent out.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4263
Mr. Barker. Yes. The literature is principally sent to the East,
the North, and the Northwest.
The Chairman. Here is another Hamburg, address Hamburg 36.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, I am not positive, but I believe thai
is the address of one of the branches of the bund, one of the Nazi
propaganda agencies.
The Chairman. Livable Christianity. Here is another address to
Hamburg 3G Zuner 508.
The Afro-American. Do you know what that is?
Cherokee Indian Museum. Kennelworth Press.
We will take a recess until 1 : 15.
(Thereupon at 12:15 a recess was taken until 1:15 p. m. of the
same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
The committee met pursuant to the taking of a recess at 1 : 20 p. m.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
I want to read, in connection with the Registration Act, section 15
of the regulations which defines the term "■publicity agent" to mean:
any person who is directly or indirectly engaged in the placing or disseminat-
ing, within the United States, of oral, written, or pictoral information of matter
of any kind for publication in any manner, including publication through
advertising, books, periodicals, newspapers, lectures, broadcast, motion pictures,
or otherwise: Provided, however, That this term shall not be held to apply
to any persons by reason of their being engaged in disseminating of material,
information, or ideas in furtherance of bonafide religious, scholastic, academic,
or scientific activities, or of the fine arts.
I notice that most of these newspaper agencies have registered with
the Secretary of State. Here is a long list of them which have
registered.
I read that because it seems to the Chair that under that definition
of publicity agents, Pelley and his publications are absolutely
covered. Certainly if these other agents have registered, as coming
under this act, the Chair is inclined to believe that Mr. Pelley and
his organization come under it too.
All right, let us proceed.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT B. BARKER— Resumed
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.
The Chairman. What about the telegrams; you have all of the
telegrams?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. I think the telegrams ought to go into the record.
Mr. Mason. If they are pertinent.
Mr. Barker. A telegram dated March 9, 1939, to Fraser Gardner,
Washington, D. C, and reads :
Check mailed today. Our friend will contact you and Dave Mondey.
That is signed "Skyland Press."
That is a Postal telegram.
Another Postal telegram dated May 17, addressed to Fraser
Gardner, 3224 Wisconsin Avenue NW., Washington, D. C, Emer-
son 0430.
Detained here until Thursday nite.
4264 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Signed, "W. D." Charged, Skyland Press.
Telegram to Fraser Gardner, Postal telegram, from Asheville,
N. C, under date of March 24, 1939, addressed to 3224 Wisconsin
Avenue NW., Washington, D. C.
Important visitors here. Cannot leave before Sunday night, Pennsylvania.
Appointment is for Tuesday anyhow. Sending your package to home special
delivery.
Signed, "W. B. P."
Telegram to Fraser Gardner, Postal, dated March 1, 1939, Wash-
ington, D. C.
Pis call at Postal Tel, Washn. Bldg. 10 o'clock tomorrow morning for money
tfr. Sorry abt delay. It won't happen again.
Signed, "W. B. P."
Telegram, April 3, 1939, Asheville, N. C, to G. R. Ninness, South
Hill Branch, No. 9 Oakhurst Plan, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Urgent have Roy if there advise Lloyd phone Emerson 0430 Fraser tonight
regarding legislation.
That is signed "Carmichael."
Telegram dated June 20, 1939, Asheville, X. C, to David Mayne,
care David Babp. 229 Bond Building, Washington, D. C.
Beecham arriving sometime tonight. Was delayed until seven this morning.
That is signed, "Talpey."
Telegram dated July 3, 1939, Asheville, X. C, to D. D. Mayne,
care David Babp, 229 'Bond Building, Washington, D. C, reading :
Impossible to visit doctor before Friday owing to delegation here. Can
Atlanta party contact me at plant en route home ; important.
That is signed, "Beecham."
Telegram dated June 14, 1939, Asheville, N. C, to David Mayne,
care David Babp, 229 Bond Building, Washington, D. C, reading:
Cannot meet party at station until Friday morning.
That is signed, "Beecham."
Collect telegram dated January 21, 1939, to William D. Pelley,
Asheville, X. C., from David Babp, Washington.
Gundersheimer sale completed. All furniture including four pictures in three
rooms insurance building removed and in storage as directed. Will write
Monday.
That is signed, "David Babp."
Telegram dated December 19, 1938, from Asheville, N. C, to David
D. Mayne, 229 Bond Building, Washington, D. C, reading:
Mont awaiting Beecham's authority on suggestion. Letter follows.
That is signed, "L. B."
That is, Lawrence Brown.
Here is a money order message from Asheville dated June 2, 1939,
to David Mayne for $10. signed "Talpey."
Telegram to William D. Pelley, Biltmore Plaza, Asheville, X. C,
from Washington, collect, and signed "D. D. Mayne."
See all reports on George Leach, mayor of Minneapolis, as of this date on
averting civil strife on W. P. A. carried by United Press. Hill friend further
agrees necessity of Andy's action at this particular moment. Please inform
Andy to stick it out finishing job with you, quoting his wife who is stopping
with my wife and happy because of opportunity afforded. Have him wire me
at Bond Building care D. Babp this afternoon. Kindest regards.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4265
The Chairman. Who is the Andy referred to?
Mr. Barker. I can'1 identify him.
Another telegram collect from Washington to Lawrence Brown,
645 Haywood Road, West Asheville, N. C.
Advise Beecham reference Wednesday deadline. Senator Pittman clarifies
statement and advises ostracism of Japan. Reporl follows special air mail.
Signed, "Mayne."
Telegram dated June 13, 1939, from Asheville, N. C, to Clyde J.
Wright, 416 Hathaway, Houston, Tex., reading:
Have mailed Dies booklet and Deatherage pamphlet to 300 Houston business
executives. Letter follows.
Signed: "W. D. Pelley."
Telegram dated November 22, 1938, Asheville, N. C, to Fred G.
Wilmer, Winners Photo Shop, Mount Vernon, Wash.; that is the
State of Washington.
Just paid e. o. d. charges on second hundred of Marsdons. We paid for 200
on the 14th. Send next lot without charges.
That is signed : "Pelley Publishers."
Telegram dated December 1, 1938, from Asheville, N. C, to Mrs.
Helen Hansmann, care Mrs. Edna Covert, 3 Oxford Boulevard,
Royal Oak, Mich., reading:
Roy wires injuries only slight. Going about his business. Chief took care
of water at house. Regards.
Signed : "Talpey."
Telegram dated December 7, 1938, from Asheville, N. C, to Helen
Hansmann. care Mrs. Edna Covert, 3 Oxford Boulevard, Royal Oak,
Mich., reading :
Letters received and delivered. Money in mail. Think chief plans to con-
tact you on coming trip north on Chicago complication.
That is signed : "A. H. Talpey."
The Chairman. What was that Chicago complication?
Mr. Barker. That was some trouble out there in the local organ-
ization.
The Chairman. I see.
Mr. Barker. I presume that was it.
Collect telegram from Royal Oak, Mich., dated December 7, 1938,
to Alfred E. Talpey, Asheville, N. C, reading:
Taking off soon. Waiting wire from you regarding recent letter.
Signed : "Helen."
Telegram dated December 11, 1938, Asheville, N. C, to Oscar Thier,
1516 North Bend Road, Cincinnati, reading:
Tell Brownie be ready X-ray patient tomorrow, Monday night.
Signed : "A. M. Henderson."
Telegram dated December 18, 1938, Asheville, N. C, to Mrs. M.
Brnnnemeyer, 338 Evans Avenue, Aurora, 111., reading:
Judge Graber's city court Tuesday, December 20. Exact time unknown.
Signed : "A. H. Talpey,"
Telegram dated January 13. 1939. from Asheville, N. C, to Roy
Xachery, Snoqualmie, Wash., reading:
Make California trip without undue delay. Coining into Asheville from
San Diego via Santa Fe Trail to escape winter weather. Think it best let
4266 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
north country ride for present. Northeastern States organizing and need
your attention. Letter will reach you at Finchs regarding Southland contacts.
Anticipate vital developments, capital, this month. Good policy to he on hand.
Regards to all.
That is signed : "Beecham."
Telegram dated January 16, 1939, Asheville. N. C, to Ray Zachary,
Snoqualmie, Wash., reading:
Situation not urgent, but if I do not win you to come on. Please come-
quickly. Regards.
Signed : "Beecham."
Telegram dated February 1, 1939, from Asheville, N. C, to George
B. Fisher, 480 Lexington Avenue, New York City, reading :
Lloyd will see you within next couple of days. Regards.
Signed : "Henderson."
Telegram dated February 9, 1939, to Roy Thompson, care Dr.
William C. Nelson, 438 North Larchmont Boulevard, Los Angeles,
Calif., reading :
Suggest you leave at earliest convenience for Brinks. Am air mailing there,
in his care, full data. States situation for you. Please be guided accordingly.
Signed : "Beecham."
Telegram dated February 25, 1939, to Charles E. Lowery, 69 East
Long Street, Columbus, Ohio :
Ship 42 Mch. Eclipse folded today, sight draft against B. of L., Skyland
Press account.
Mr. Thomas. May I interrupt for a moment, Mr. Barker?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. In regard to Fritz Kuhn. Mr. Kuhn stated that he
would like nothing better than to get a passport which would take
him out of this country, preferably to Germany. In view of that
fact, and in view of the condition tinder which the various ships are
sailing from the United States now to foreign countries, I would like
to suggest that our attorney communicate either by telegram or tele-
phone immediately to the chief of police of New York and to Harry
Durney, collector of the port of New- York City, that they take
extraordinary precautions against any of our witnesses, who are
under subpena, and I have particularly in mind Mr. Kuhn, against
leaving on any of the ships about to sail from New York City.
I have checked up and found that the Bremen is still being held
up but may leave very shortly.
I would like to make the suggestion that the attorney himself do
that, if that is agreeable to the committee.
The Chairman. That is all right.
Mr. Thomas. Will you do that right away, Mr. Attorney?
Mr. Whitley. Yes. '
The Chairman. All right; let us proceed.
Mr. Barker. Telegram dated March 4, 1939. to Roy Zachary, care
Broyles Piano Co., Inn Hotel, Shreveport, La.
Hope you haven't given up contacting party at Little Rock. Think preferable
to Tuscaloosa.
Signed : "Beecham."
Telegram dated March 21, 1939, to H. L. Henderson, Mechlenburg
Hotel, Charlotte.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4267
Am working two crews. Shall not add another press for some time yet.
That is signed : "W. D. P."
Telegram dated March 24, L939, to Robert Edward Edmondson,
Stoddartsville, Pa., reading:
Can forward yon 5,000 4-page Dies bulletins. Do yon want Edmondson im-
print bottom fourth page? Wire answer.
Signed: "Pelley."
Telegram of April 9, 1939, addressed to A. Cummings, care 535
North Stanley. Los Angeles, reading:
Greetings to you and Ellen, sons, on this important day. Your thoughtful
wire much appreciated.
Signed: "Ernest."
Telegram of May 1, 1939, to J. E. Broyles, Shreveport, La.,
re a ding :
Withhold all information regarding ball situation pending receipt of second
letter mailed today. Hush pamphlet you mentioned air mail, special delivery.
Signed : "A. H. Talpey."
Telegram of May 1, 1939, to Louise White Magrath, Hotel Royal-
ton, New York City, reading:
Regret Mr. Pelley cannot consider your proposition.
Signed : "Pelley Publishers."
Telegram of May 3, 1939, to George B. Fisher, 480 Lexington
Avenue, New York City, reading :
Please proceed with deal as suggested. Letter should reach you Friday
morning.
Signed :"W. D. P."
Telegram of June 8, 1939, to Kuby Johnson, route 1, box 37,
Redmond, Wash., reading:
Wire relayed to Helen. We are surrounding Wilma with thoughts of love
and helpfulness.
Signed : "Pelley Publishers."
Telegram June 21, 1939. to William Goodale, Burlington Hotel.
Washington, D. C, reading :
Re telegram received. Suggest your meeting Milton Hay, Adams House,
Washington, this afternoon 4 : 30. Unavailable New York until Saturday.
Signed : "Union League."
Telegram June 24, 1939, collect, from Miami, Fla., to Skyland
Press :
Must have funds immediately. Wire care main office Postal.
Signed : "Roy Zachary."
Telegram of July 5, 1939, to Orrille O. Clarke, 921 Eleventh
Street, South Corvallis, Oreg. :
You will receive valuable package by express. Call there.
That is signed : "Dr. D. D. Clarke."
Teleoram of July 16, 1939, to Mrs. Ruth Zachary, Snoqualmie
Falls, Wash. :
Driving through to Chicago. Contact through Eger if necessary. Ck. air
mailed today.
Signed : "Roy."
4268 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Telegram of March 13, 1939, to David Babp, 229 Bond Building,
Washington, D. C. :
Please advise our men am delayed on tax return. Coming up by car. Will
call on arrival.
Signed : "Beecham."
Telegram of March 16, 1939, to George Babp, 229 Bond Building,
Washington, D. C.
Please have Beecham contact Leahy. Best regards.
Signed: "Skyland Press."
Telegram dated January 23, 1939, to F. G. Collett, 610 Shoreham
Building, Washington, D. C, reading:
Would have communicated before. Did not have your address. Party from
this office getting in touch with you tomorrow. Please wire your phone number
for calling On arrival.
Signed : ''Henderson."
The Chairman. Step aside, Mr. Barker.
Now, in reference to the Dr. Colin Boss case, that we have our
evidence prepared to go into — on account of the international situa-
tion, it is deemed advisable to have our attorney confer with the
State Department before making this evidence public. The matter
seems to be rather far-reaching and I suggest that our attorney con-
fer with the State Department and find out if, in their judgment, the
situation is such that this evidence ought not to be made public. So
that if you will confer with them in reference to that and let us know,
we may go into that tomorrow. We do not want to do anything
right at this time that will make the situation any worse.
Now is Edward James Smythe here? Edward James Smythe?
(No response.)
I understand, Mr. Counsel, he was duly subpenaed by the com-
mittee to appear?
Mr. Whitley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And he has not appeared and his whereabouts
now cannot be located; is that true?
Mr. Whitley. That is right. He was subpenaed some time ago
and he did not respond to the subpena, and it has not been possible to
locate him since he failed to respond in the first instance.
The Chairman. Well, you have his file, do you?
Mr. Whitlev. I have: yes, sir.
The Chairman. His file has been subpenaed?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
The Chairman. Before we go into the Smythe matter — we might
just as well go through with the Smythe matter this afternoon, be-
cause the committee wants to write a preliminary report dealing with
those organizations and individuals that have been investigated; but,
before you go into it. are you going to take up now the Pelley publi-
cations'and the comparisons there?
Mr. Whitley. I think it would be well, Mr. Chairman, to read a
few of those into the record to show the nature of the material.
The Chairman. All right.
Mi-. Whitley. The first is an article appearing in Mr. Pelley's
Liberation, dated Julv 8, 1933. The title of the article in question is
Fair Play to All Jews Commends Frank Statement of Facts! I
UN-AMKRK'AN rilOl'AOANDA ACTIVITIES 4269
have hero the reproduction of the Liberation, and it reads as follows.
I will read only certain portions of it which arc exact duplications:
The sound merchant of the old school held the opinion that his duty was satis-
factorily discharged by the satisfying the actual purchase requirements of his
customers. He allowed the latter to approach him of their own accord, and
wainted until they called upon him, believing that he had ((informed in all
respects to ins business obligations by procuring for the customer, at a suitable
price, the goods which t lie latter required. He regarded it as beneath his
dignity to run after customers or to entice them, by all manner of tricks, to
buy from him: in fact, in olden times, conduct of this kindwas regarded as
unbecoming and quite unworthy of an honorable trader. Far less did it ever
occur to him to talk a customer into buying some article which the latter would
not have bought of his own accord. * * *
It goes on in that vein for a column and a half. Air. Chairman.
Now that article is a duplication of an article which appeared
in the Hammer Press, Leipzig, Germany, in 1927, at pages 10 to
13. under the title 'The Riddle of the Jews' Success." and here is
the reproduction of the German — original German document — with
the same material [exhibiting]. In other words, this is to illustrate
one of the foreign sources from which Mr. Pelley lifts his material
for publication, without identifying it. The article as it appeared
in his Liberation was anonymous; he did not give any author or
any source for the material.
The Chairman. Right there: You have numerous examples of
that there, do you not?
Mr. Whitley. I have two volumes, Mr. Chairman, of descriptive
data and containing photostatic copies of Mr. Pelley's articles;
that is, the one appearing in his Liberation, then a photostatic copy
of the original German source from which he took that material.
The Chairman. I do not see any necessity of reading that at
this time. Do you gentlemen want them incorporated in the record,
side by side?
Mr. Whitley. I wotdd suggest that these volumes be made a part
of the record in the case — I do not mean reproduced, but that they
will be kept in the official files of the committee for future reference
insofar as that section of the record of the hearing is concerned,
if anyone wants to check them.
Mr. Mason. As exhibits of the point you are making?
Mr. Whitley. That is right — exhibits establishing the fact that
he does do and has done that.
The Chairman. That upon numerous occasions he has taken his
material word for word from German sources and reprinted it in
his publication, without giving credit to the sources?
Mr. Whitley. That is right.
The Chairman. Or to the authoriship of it?
Mr. Whitley. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Is that all right?
Mr. Mason. That is all right with me.
The Chairman. Then let us go to the James Smythe matter.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, the correspondence files of Mr. Ed-
ward James Smythe were obtained by subpena, committee subpena
or congressional subpena, which was served upon Mr. Donald Shea,
of Washington, D. C, who is the head of the National Gentile
League. Mr. Shea, at the time the subpena was served, had custody
of the records — of Mr. Smythe's records, and Mr. Shea was a former
4270 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
secretary of one of Mr. Smythe's organizations — the Protestant War
Veterans of the United States. I merely state that by way of ex-
plaining the manner in which this correspondence was secured.
The Chairman. Does that organization publish this weekly — The
Monitor, which is an anti-Catholic publication?
Mr. Whitley. No; it does not, Mr. Chairman. I do not know
who publishes The Monitor. As far as I know it is not one of Mr.
Smythe's publications.
Mr. Thomas. Is this Smythe organization, that is, the head-
quarters of it, located in New York City?
Mr. Whitley. Originally they were located in New York City,
then, Mr. Thomas, they came to Washington and incorporated an
affiliate here in the District of Columbia. There has been, in the last
2 or 3 months, quite a fight among the leaders, or purported leaders,
of that organization as to who was actually in charge. I think there
has been some injunction proceeding on the part of Mr. Smythe to
try to stop one of the officers, Mr. Collins, from taking over the
organization — or at least Mr. Smythe alleges he has taken over the
organization.
Mr. Thomas. When you subpenaed those files, did you subpena
them in New York?
Mr. Whitley. No ; they were subpenaed here in Washington ; they
were here at the time. The files were very voluminous and covering
a period of many years. They were gone through and only those
portions which appeared to be of interest to the committee were
removed.
As the chairman has already indicated. Air. Smythe was served with
a subpena for his appearance here. He did not respond to that
subpena. Efforts have been made to locate him and those efforts
have been unsuccessful — the principal purpose of the subpena to
bring him here, or one of the purposes, at least, being to give him
an opportunity to be present and make such explanations as he might
want to make with reference to the evidence which we obtained
from his files.
I would like to state that the material obtained from Mr. Smythe's
files indicates that over a period of the last several years he has been
very active in setting up organizations. The following are some of
the principal organizations which Mr. Smythe has set up and headed
in recent years:
The National Committee Against Communism, of which he was
head and which he organized.
The Protestant War Veterans of the United States. Mr. Smythe
was the commander, the national commander of that organization.
Affiliated with that original organization, he had the following
additional organizations : The Protestant Chaplains' Association, Inc.;
the Protestant War Mothers of the United States; the Ladies' Aux-
iliary of Protestant War Veterans; and Sons and Daughters of
Protestant War Veterans.
He has also been actively connected with, in a directive capacity,
the Protestant Civic Welfare Federation, and the Loyal Legion of
America. Those organizations, apparently, again based on the infor-
mation in the files — we have the articles of incorporation on some of
them; others were not incorporated — were merely conducting business
under a name; that is, they had a certificate entitling them to carry
on business under the name selected.
tar
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4271
The purpose apparenly, from the records, of all of the organiza-
tions was to enlist membership, which included, of course, initiation
tecs or membership fees, plus dues; to solicit contributions and to use
high-sounding names with which the organizations were decorated
to make contacts with various individuals and other organizations
throughout the country.
Mr. Smythe, at various times in his correspondence with other
groups, claimed anywhere from 1,000,000 to 7,000,000 followers, and
apparently some of the individuals receiving correspondence from
him on an imposing looking letterhead, and with the names which
he had selected, were considerably impressed with the organization
which he represented.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, he duped a number of people
into lending him aid, did he not?
Mr. Whitley. Yes; the correspondence, the files, indicate that this
probably was his principal, if not only, source of income, and that he
would abandon one organization and set up another over night when
a name he had been operating under became too well known, or had
lost its value insofar as getting contributions was concerned.
Mr. Mason. It was a pure racket, then?
Mr. Whitley. I would say so; yes, sir.
The Chairman. The point I was making is — and it is an important
thing — that a number of substantial people were drawn into this
business ?
Mr. Whitley. Yes.
The Chairman. Or, rather, manifested an interest in it and car-
ried on correspondence and extended financial aid to him?
Mr. Whitley. That is right. The correspondence indicates defi-
nitely that a great many persons whom he contacted thought it was
a perfectly legitimate organization, and their responses were in keep-
ing with that belief.
Now, some of the individuals or organizations which Mr. Smythe
was in contact with over a period of a number of years are the fol-
lowing— and this list by no means is all-inclusive. There are a great
many others that are not included because the files are too voluminous,
and "we only selected organizations and groups which we know about
and which we were interested in. He had correspondence with the
German-American Bund, particularly with Mr. James Wheeler Hill,
secretary of the bund. The correspondence indicates — and I will
read some of it a little later — a very friendly relationship between
Mr. Smythe and his organizations, and the bund. The correspond-
ence also indicates that Mr. Hill had sent Mr. Smythe tickets to sell,
a block of tickets to sell, for the Madison Square Garden rally of the
bund, which was held last February. The correspondence in that par-
ticular file also indicates that — at least the last correspondence avail-
able in that file indicates — Mr. James Wheeler Hill was still trying
to collect from Mr. Smythe for those tickets which he had sent him
to sell.
The Chairman. Let me inject this at that point : The reason the
committee is going into cases like Smythe, who. of course, is just a
racketeer, is because the evidence is there in writing that many peo-
ple, some of whom are very prominent people, were drawn into this
thing, or were duped by it,* and that shows the ability of some fellow
like Smythe. of his type, to operate through the United States and
get a great many people in his organizations, lending support and
4272 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
aid to something that is nothing in the world but a racket. That is
the purpose of going into this thing?
Mr. Whitley. That is right.
The Chairman. And the facts show he was associated with all of
these other groups, working with them sympathetically, and the
presence of a tie-up between all these other groups, do they not?
Mr. Whitley. That is right. He at times, from his correspond-
ence, depending on the individual or organization with which he
was corresponding, was violently anti-Catholic ; at other times, when
corresponding with Mr. True and Mr. Deatherage, violently anti-
Jewish. He apparently changed his program and the objectives of
his organizations depending upon with whom he was in contact and
what their particular views were.
Some of the organizations he corresponded with and apparently
had very close relations with were the American Gentile Protestant
Association and the League of War Veteran Guardsmen, Mr. Frank
W. Clark, of Tacoma, Wash., being the head of both of those organ-
izations, who was mentioned the other day by Mr. Allen in his testi-
mony; the American National Action Party, headed by Hawthorne
Winner.
The Chairman. Is that the organization that has been insisting we
investigate the Catholic Church?
Mr. Whitley. I believe that is the organization. I have the cor-
respondence here. I believe that is the one that is anti-Catholic.
The Chairman. In other words, this correspondence here reveals
Smythe, operating an anti-Catholic organization, in close contact
with these other people who specialize in anti-Jewish organizations?
Mr. Whitley. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. In other words, these people are really seeking
to capitalize on any kind of hatred they can to gain followers, pri-
marily to make money out of it?
Mr. Whitley. They are racketeering on hatred, I would put it.
The Chairman. Some specializing in anti-Catholic, some anti-Jew,
and some anti-Protestant, but the purpose is the same — to fleece the
people. And one reason we are going into them, among others, is
because they are very sympathetic with the Fascist form of govern-
ment; second, they dupe a great many innocent people into lending
aid to these organizations?
Mr. Whitley. That is right.
The Chairman. And certain people, in the commencement of it
last year, raised a great hue and cry and said it was fantastic ; that
people could not be led into these movements. And now it has been
shown that in the New York American League for Peace and Democ-
racy, its followers are withdrawing in droves and won't have any-
thing to do with it ; that at last they are beginning to see it is nothing
but a racket. And as we go on with the hearings, we are going to
find a large percentage of people who have been giving support to
all these movements have been innocent people, insofar as they did
not suspect the nature of them ; nevertheless, they were giving them
aid just as effectively as if they were sincerely a part of the move-
ment themselves.
Mr. Whitley. That is right.
The Chairman. I just want to clarify it.
Mr. Whitley. Voluminous correspondence with the Vechter
Cherep-Spiridovich — which is very active in the White Russian
UN-AMERICAJS PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4273
Fascist group; Gerald B. Winrod, Wichita, Ivans.; the German
Legion, Inc.; correspondence and apparently contacts, judging from
the correspondence, with the German Legion, Inc., of New York City,
headed by Henry O. Spier.
The letterhead of that organization reflects that at the time the
correspondence was going on Dr. I. T. Griebl was the adjutant <>r
the head of that organization. Dr. Griebl has since tied to Ger-
many, while being sought in connection with the spy ring in New
York.
The correspondence also indicates that the German Legion, Inc.,
i> in touch with the Silver Shirts.
Correspondence with Stahrenberg — that is R. Hoffman Stahren-
berg. He puts out a publication entitled "The News from Ger-
many," and the publication deals apparently entirely with German
news from German sources — a copy of the publication dated March
1939.
Numerous contacts with George Deatherage, St. Albans, W. Va. ;
Robert Edward Edmonson; James True, who puts out the Indus-
trial Control Reports. Washington, D. C. ; contacts with Ernest
Elmhurst, who had offices in the Grand Central Annex, New York
City; Frank AY. Clark, of Tacoma, Wash., of the National Liberty
Party. I also mentioned him above in connection with two groups
which he heads. I believe the National Liberty Party is his latest
contribution.
George W. Christians, of Chattanooga.
Don Shea, national commander of the Gentile League, Washing-
ton, D. C. ; also of the American Vigilantes.
William Kullgren, editor of the Beacon Light, Atascadero, Calif.,
who was mentioned briefly in Mr. xVllen's testimony.
Mrs. Leslie Fry. of the Militant Christian Patriots and the Christ-
ian Free Press, of Pasadena, Calif.
Carl Neumeister. who has been active in disseminating German
propaganda, Nazi propaganda, in New York. His name was men-
tioned in the committee's hearings last summer by one of the
witnesses.
William Dudley Pelley, Asheville, N. C. ; also contacts with the
Anglo-Saxon Federation of America, headed by Howard V. Rand,
national commissioner, headquarters Haverhill, Mass.; puts out a
publication, Destiny.
Those are some of the principal contacts indicated by the cor-
respondence in the files, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Yoorhis. Does that mean that these people had extensive
correspondence with Mr. Smythe?
Mr. Whitley. It varies. This is what we took of Mr. Deather-
age's correspondence, which is rather extensive. I tried to confine
the introduction of the files here to instances where there was two-
way correspondence.
Mr. Yoorhis. That is what I was getting at. These are not simply
people to whom he wrote, but people who wrote back to him and
seemed to be interested in what he was doing?
Mr. Whitley. That is right. He could write to anyone, and the
response or the extent of the correspondence would indicate how
closely they were affiliated.
The Chairman. What does the committee think about the cor-
respondence? It is rather voluminous. I have an idea that it might
4274 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
be well for the committee to proceed to write this preliminary report.
We have all these facts before us, and we have not decided whether
we are going to try to locate Mr. Smythe any further or not. There
are a great many letters here, including letters from prominent peo-
ple. We ought to determine which ones we shall make public.
The correspondence in fhat file ought to determine those who are
innocent and those who are guilty, or who have participated in the
movement, In other words, the question is, with respect to the people
who are innocent, those who went into the party and afterward
repudiated it, whether their names ought to go into this record. That
is a matter, I think, that we should consider in executive session.
There is no particular rush about it anyway, and perhaps it might
be well for us now to proceed to write this preliminary report.
The thing that is in my mind is this : You have in that file a great
deal of correspondence from people all over the country. I think
the committee ought to determine in executive session just what
classes of that correspondence we want released. If we release one
in a class, we ought to release them all. The principal thing in my
mind is with respect to the innocent people who found out that it
was a racket and repudiated the thing. It might not be well to
mention those people, because there have been so many people who
have been duped in this country by the Nazi and Fascist organiza-
tions that if we should mention them all it would make a tremendous
record. But those who really participated in it after they knew
about it, and where there is some evidence that they knew what
they were in — that they were in a movement for the purpose of
promoting the Nazi ideology in the United States — that is a different
question; and I am just thinking — I do not know what the com-
mittee thinks about it — that it might be well to consider all these
matters in executive session before we make them public.
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, I may say that all these organiza-
tions that I have mentioned here come in the category of those
actively participating. I did not include many individuals or groups
whose actions or motives were not obvious from the correspondence.
The Chairman. I know ; but that brings up the question whether
it is right to disclose the names of those people and let some of
these other people get by. Anyway, it is a question, I think, that
the committee had better determine in executive session. We can
make this correspondence public at a later date.
So far as the Colin Ross case is concerned, if you will confer with
the State Department on that, we can decide whether it is advisable
to make public the facts in that case at this time.
Mr. Whitley. All right, sir.
The Chmrman. Suppose we go into executive session and proceed
to write this preliminary report, which we will have in a few days —
the release on these Fascist organizations.
The committee will go into executive session.
(Thereupon the committee proceeded to the discussion of business
in executive session, after which it adjourned until Tuesday, Sep-
tember 5, 1939, at 10 a. m.)
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