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Full text of "Investigation of un-American propaganda activities in the United States. Hearings before a Special Committee on Un-American Activities, House of Representatives, Seventy-fifth Congress, third session-Seventy-eighth Congress, second session, on H. Res. 282, to investigate (l) the extent, character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propaganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary remedial legislation"

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INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN 

PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE 

UNITED STATES 

HEARINGS 

BEFORE A 

SPECIAL 

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 
ON 

H. Res. 282 

TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND OBJECTS 
OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED 
STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF 
SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA THAT IS INSTI- 
GATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN 
AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE FORM OF GOVERN- 
MENT AS GUARANTEED BY OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL 
OTHER QUESTIONS IN RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID 
CONGRESS IN ANY NECESSARY REMEDIAL 
LEGISLATION 



VOLUME 6 

AUGUST 16, 17, 18, 21, 22, 23, 24, 28, AND 29, 1939 
AT WASHINGTON, D. C. 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities 




UNITED STATES 

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 

WASHINGTON : 1939 




INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN 

PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE 

UNITED STATES 



HEARINGS 



BEFORE A 



SPECIAL 

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 
ON 

H. Res. 282 

TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND OBJECTS 
OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED 
STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF 
SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA THAT IS INSTI- 
GATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN 
AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE FORM OF GOVERN- 
MENT AS GUARANTEED BY OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL 
OTHER QUESTIONS IN RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID 
CONGRESS IN ANY NECESSARY REMEDIAL 
LEGISLATION 



VOLUME 6 

AUGUST 16, 17, 18, 21, 22, 23, 24, 28, AND 29, 1939 
AT WASHINGTON, D. C. 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities 







. 



UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
94931 • WASHINGTON : 1939 






SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES, 
WASHINGTON, D. C. 

MARTIN DIES, Texas, Chairman 

JOHN J. DEMPSEY, New Mexico NOAH M. MASON, Illinois 

JOE STAENES, Alabama J. PARNELL THOMAS, New Jersej 

JERRY VOORHIS, California 

Robert E. Stkipling, Secretary 
Rhea Whitley, Counsel 
II 



Charged to credit sect 
with Stipt. of Documents 



• o I i •■ ; . . ■ . ♦ • • • 



- 



•- • -»■ 



CONTENTS 

Page 

Allen, Henry D 3972, 4003, 4086, 4124 

Barker, Robert 4182, 4239 

Gardner, Fraser 4045,4075,5463 

Kuhn, Fritz, German- American Bund 3705 

Metcalfe, John C 3942 

Sherman, Dr. John Harvey, University of Tampa 3961 

Smith, Telma L., official reporter to committees, House of Representa- 
tives 4079 

Sullivan, George E., attorney at law, Washington. D. C 4073 

Vooros, Helen 3891, 3946 

in 



i; 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 16, 1939 

House of Representatives. 

Special Committee to Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. 0. 

The committee met at 10 a. m. in the caucus room. House Office 
Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman), presiding. 

(Present: Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to committee.) 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

All members of the committee were notified of the hearing this 
morning. The committee, in executive session, has adopted two res- 
olutions: One, that in accordance with the resolution of Congress 
creating this committee, the chairman be authorized to appoint sub- 
committees for the purpose of holding hearings and receiving testi- 
mony or evidence whenever he deems it advisable or necessary. 

The other resolution is that all hearings of the committee, or any 
subcommittee appointed by the chairman, be public, and that in the 
event the chairman of the committee or of any subcommittee deems it 
advisable to receive any testimony or evidence in executive session, 
he shall first obtain the consent of the majority of the committee or 
subcommittee, as the case may be. 

The first witness this morning will be Mr. Fritz Kuhn. 

(Mr. Fritz Kuhn took the witness chair.) 

The Chairman. The committee requests absolute order and quiet 
so that we may hear the witnesses. The committee wants to be abso- 
lutely fair to ever}' witness who appears before it. At the same 
time, the committee expects the witnesses to be responsive in their 
answers to any questions that are propounded and not to volunteer 
statements. Where an explanation is in order, a witness will be 
accorded the opportunity to make a pertinent explanation of any 
testimony, but witnesses will not be permitted to volunteer state- 
ments or to assume a belligerent attitude. 

All that this committee is interested in is to obtain the facts and the 
truth with respect to all subversive activities in the United States. 

Every witness who appears before this commitee is under oath and 
will be held accountable for any testimony that is nor accurate. 

The witness will be sworn. 

TESTIMONY OF FRITZ KUHN 

(The witness was duly sworn.) 

The Chairman. Mr. Whitley, counsel to the committee, will con- 
duct the examination. 

3705 



3706 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. What is your full name? 

Mr. Kuhx. Fritz Julius Kuhn. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever gone under or been known by any 
other name? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your present address, Mr. Kuhn? 

Mr. Kuhn. My present address is 178 East Eighty-fifth Street, 
New York City. 

Mr. Whitley. Where were you born? 

Mr. Kuhx. In Munich. Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. When were you born? 

Mr. Kuhx. May 15, 1896. * . 

Mr. Whitley. 1896, did you sav? 

Mr. Kuhx. In '96. 

Mr. Whitley. Where were you educated? 

Mr. Kuhx. In Munich, Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the extent of your education? 

Mr. Kuhx. Public school, high school, and university. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you in the World War? 

Mr. Kuhx. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. For what period? 

Mr. Kuhx. Four and a half years. 

Mr. Whitley. What branch of the service? 

Mr. Kuhx. Infantry, machine gun. 

Mr. Whitley. What was your rank? 

Mr. Kuhx. Bv the beginning of the war or bv the finish of the 
war ? 

Mr. Whitley. At the finish of the war. 

Mr. Kuhx. Lieutenant. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you married or single? 

Mr. Kuhx. Married. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you any children? 

Mr. Kuhn. Two. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have any relatives that occupy official po- 
sitions in the Nazi government? 

Mr. Kuhn. I have a brother, a supreme judge. 

Mr. Whitley. You have a brother who is a supreme court judge? 

Mr. Kuhn. A supreme judge. 

Mr. Whitley. Where is he located? 

Mr. Kuhx. In Berlin. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have any other relatives in Germany who 
hold any official positions? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever been arrested or had any charges 
brought against you in Germany? 

Mr. Kuhx. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Of any kii 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Have yon ever been arrested in the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. On what occasion, and for what? 

Mr. Kuhn. Different occasions. The charge against me was drunk- 
enness and profanity, and grand larceny. 









UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3707 

Mr. Whitley. And what \ 
Mr. Kuhn. Ami grand larceny. 

Mr. Whitley. When and where were those charges brought, Mr. 
Kuhn \ 

Mr. Kuhn. The first charges were brought in New York City; I do 
not recall the exact date — oh, yes. 25th of May 1939. 

Mr. Whitley. When were the other charges brought? 

Mr. Kuhn. Some time in July, in Massachusetts. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was with you at the time you were arrested in 
Massachusetts, Mr. Kuhn? 

Mr. Kuhn. With me were three of my officers. 

Mr. Whitley. Three of your officers \ 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you name them, please? 

Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Kunze and Mr. James Wheeler Hill. 

Mr. Whitley. And who was the third ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Gustav Elmer. 

Mr. Whitley. Was there not another party there? Was not this 
Russian count with you at the time? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; he was not along with us. 

Mr. Whitley. He was not with you ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Is he connected with you in any way? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; he is not connected in any way. 

Mr. Whitley. He is a friend of yours, though '. 

Mr. Kuhn. An acquaintance, not a friend. 

Mr. Whitley. He is an acquaintance? 

Mr. Kuhn. An acquaintance. 

Mr. Whitley. Of long standing? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no; it might be about the first time I met him — 
about 6 or 7 months ago. 

Mr. Whitley. He is connected with a White Russian organiza- 
tion, is he not, a Fascist group? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; he is not a Fascist group. He is a revolutionary 
group which tries to overthrow the government in Russia. That is 
his whole purpose. He does not do any political activity in the 
United States at all. 

Mr. Whitley. He appeared with you at the time of the hearing up 
there, did he not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. I was his guest, his week-end guest. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the name of your brother who is on the 
supreme court in Germany. Mr. Kuhn? 

Mr. Kuhn. Kuhn. 

Mr. Whitley. I mean his first name. 

Mr. Kuhn. Max. 

Mr. Whitley. Max \ 

Mr. Kuhn. Max; Dr. Max Kuhn. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you give the name of the Russian count who 
was with you? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was not a Russian count with me. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, the Russian. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well. I do not know his name ; it is something — San- 
etskoff, whatever the name is. one of his fellows was along with us. 



3708 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know the name of the man with whom 
you were arrested in Massachusetts? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not know his name. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you visiting him up there? Did you go up 
there to see him? 

Mr. Kuhn. We had a meeting in New Britain and I had a stand- 
ing invitation from him for quite a while. After we left New 
Britain we decided to pay him a visit. It was unexpected. 

Air. Whitley. But you were his guest. 

Mr. Kuhn. We dropped in on him. After we dropped in on him 
he invited us to stay. 

Mr. Whitley. But you do not know his name? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, jVlr. Vonsiatsky; but you asked me the fellow 
who was with us on that evening, which was on the party. We 
left his house about 12 o'clock at night. 

Mr. Whitley. He was not with you at the time you were arrested ? 

Mr. Kuhn. He was not along at all. He did not leave the house. 
The other fellow's name I do not recall. 

Mr. Whitley. When did vou leave your native country, Mr. 
Kuhn? 

Mr. Kuhn. 1923. 

Mr. Whitley. Where did vou go then? 

Mr. Kuhn. Mexico. 

Mr. Whitley. When did vou enter the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. 1927 ; I think the 18th or 19th of May 1927. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that '27 or '28? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think it is '27, to the best of my knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. Where did you enter the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Laredo, Tex. 

Mr. Whitley. Where have you lived, in what places, since your 
entry into the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Detroit, Mich. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that the only place you have lived since you 
came to the United States in 1927? 

Mr. Kuhn. I came directly to Detroit and stayed in Detroit until 
October 1936, and then I came to New York. 

Mr. Whitley. What occupations have you followed since enter- 
ing the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. I am a chemical engineer. 

Mr. Whitley. You are what? 

Mr. Kuhn. I am a chemical engineer. 

Mr. Whitley. Yon have followed that occupation? 

Mr. Kuhn. All the time. 

Mr. Whitley. Where have you followed that occupation? 

Mr. Kuhn. First, in the Henry Ford Hospital. 

Mr. Whitley. The Henry Ford Hospital I 

Mr. Kuhn. And then in the Henry Ford Motor Co. 

Mr. Whitley. How long did you work with the Ford Co. as a 
chemical engineer? 

Mr. Kuhn. About 8 years. 

Mr. Whitley. Eight years? 

Mr. Kuhn. I was employed in Ford about 8 years. 

Mr. Whitley. Are vou a citizen of the United States? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3709 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. When and where were you naturalized? 

Mr. Kuhn. In the district court in Detroit, December 3, 1933. 

Mr. Whitley. 1934, was it not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Four — three or four, T aui not sure. 

Mr. Whitley. You are not sure. What is your present occupation, 
Mr. Kuhn? 

Mr. Kuhn. I am president of the German-American Bund; presi- 
dent of the German-American Business League, and president of the 
A. V. Publishing Corporation, and president of the A. V. Develop- 
ment Corporation. 

Mr. Whitney. What does "A. V." mean? 

Mr. Juhn. That means Amerikadeutscher Volksbund; the first 
capital letters of these two words. 

Mr. Whitney. How long have you occupied those positions? 

Mr. Kuhn. Since January 1, 1936. 

Mr. Whitley. January 1, 1936 ( 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your present salary? 

Mr. Kuhn. My present salarv is $300. 

Mr. Whitley. $300 a month? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that paid by the organizations? 

Mr. Kuhn. By the different organizations. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have any other source of income? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Where do you maintain your bank accounts? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not have a bank account. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not have a personal bank account. 

When Avas your organization, the German-American Bund, with 
its subsidiary or allied groups, first founded or organized, Mr. Kuhn? 

Mr. Kuhn. In March 1936, in Buffalo, at a national convention. 

Mr. Whitley. Were there any organizations that preceded the 
German- American Bund ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Friends of New Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. How long had that organization been in existence? 

Mr. Kuhn. To the best of my knowledge since May 1933; I am 
not quite sure of the date. 

Mr. Whitley. And the German- American Bund was just the suc- 
cessor to the Friends of New Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. The friends of New Germany was dissolved and 
a new organization was formed and created, absolutely new, because 
in the German-American Bund there are only American citizens that 
can be members. 

Mr. Whitley. At the time it was first formed, that was not true, 
was it? 

Mr. Kuhn. That was true. 

Mr. Whitley. It was true? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was true, absolutely, to the best of my knowledge; 
the order was out, and absolutely strict. 

Mr. Whitley. What organization preceded the Friends of New 
Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well. I can only say that from what I heard about it. 
I do not know himself. 



3710 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Was it an organization known as the Teutonia 
Society ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Do yon know when that was founded ? 

Mr. Kuhn. To the best of my knowledge, around 1927. I think. 
Mr. Whitley. In 1927? 

Mr. Ktjhn. I think so. 

Mr. Whitley. I think the records show 1924 ; but I am not sure, 
either. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, it might be. 

Mr. Whitley. In any event, there was a series of organiza- 
tions 

Mr. Kuhn. In 1927 I heard the first time about it in Chicago. 

Mr. Whitley. Where was the new organization, the present organ- 
ization, the German- American Bund, founded? 

Mr. Kuhn. In Buffalo. 

Mr. Whitley. At a convention ? 

Mr. Kuhn. At a convention. 

Mr. Whitley. And at that time you were elected the president ; is 
that vour title ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Of the organization. And you have held that posi- 
tion ever since ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Since then. 

Mr. Whitley. Were there any particular groups of indi- 
viduals 

Mr. Kuhn. Any particular what? 

Mr. Whitley. Any particular group that founded the German- 
American Bund? Who was the moving spirit? Who called the 
convention ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I called the convention. 

Mr. Whitley. You called the convention? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, it was you who took the lead in 
organizing the convention which established the German-American 
Bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. In the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you ever a member of the preceding organ- 
ization, the Friends of New Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I was. 

Mr. Whitley. During what period, Mr. Kuhn ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I became a member in 1934, I think. 

Mr. Whitley. 1934? 

Mr. Kuhn. 1934. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you occupy any official position with that 
organization \ 

Mr. Ktjhn. Well, in the later part; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What was that position? 

Mr. Kuhn. Local unit leader of Detroit. 

Mr. Whitley. Local unit leader for the Friends of New Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. For the Friends of New Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. In Detroit? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 37H 

Mr. KriiN. Yes. . 

Mr. Whitley. Were you active in that position, in the attairs ot 

that group? 
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; of course. . 

Mr. Whitley. Who were the first officers of the newly organized 
German-American Bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. You mean what officers 

Mr. Whitley. In addition to yourself. 

Mr. Kuhn. National headquarters officer- '. 

Mr. Whitley. National headquarters officers. 

Mr. Kuhn. There was Mr. Froboese; George is his first name. 

Mr. Whitley. What was his position ? 

Mr. Kuhn. He was district leader of the middle west. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were the other officers of the organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Herman Schwinn. 

Mr. Whitley. And what is his position \ 

Mr. Kuhn. District leader of the West. 

Mr. Whitley. Of the far west division. 

Mr. Kuhn. West division. 

Mr. Whitley. Where were his headquarters '. 

Mr. Kuhn. Los Angeles. 

Mr. Whitley. And where were Mr. Froboese's headquarters? 

Mr. Kuhn. Chicago. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were the other officers, national headquarters 
officers ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Rudolph Markmann. 

Mr. Whitley. What was his position ? 

Mr. Kuhn. District leader of the East. 

Mr. Whitley. Where were his headquarters? 

Mr. Kuhn. New York. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were the other national officer:- \ 

Mr. Kuhn. In the beginning I did not have any but a secretary. 
There was Mr. Firschkorn. 

Mr. Whitley. He was the national secretary '. 

Mr. Kuhn. National secretary, for the time being: yes. 

Mr. Whitley. At the time of the organization, those were the 
only national officers? 

Mr. Kuhn. The only national officers we had at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. AYho are the present officers of the German- 
American Bund, Mr. Kuhn? 

Mr. Kuhn. The same: Mr. Froboese, Mr. Schwinn, Mr. Mark- 
mann, Mr. Kunze. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his first name ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Wilhelm. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his position ? 

Mr. Kuhn. He is director of relations: public enlightenment. 

Mr. Whitley. That is for the national organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. National organization. 

Mr. Whitley. With headquarters in New York \ 

The Chairman. Did the witness say he was the head of the de- 
partment of propaganda and enlightenment? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes : it is the same. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were the other- '. 



3712 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kdhn. Mr. Elmer, director of the organization, and Mr. 
James Wheeler Hill. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his position ? 

Mr. Kuhn. National secretary. 

Mr. Whitley. Are those the only present officers? 

Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Luedtke, business manager. 

Mr. Whitley. He is the business manager? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Any other officers at the present time? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Are those all salaried positions I 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. They are not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. One died: the national treasurer. He has not been 
replaced yet. 

Mr. Whitley. That was the national treasurer? 

Mr. Kuhn. The national treasurer ; he just died recently. There 
are only two salaried men outside of me. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn. were you active in the National Socialist 
Party before you left Germany in 1923 ? 

Mr. Kuhn." No. 

Mr. Whitley. You were not active ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You were not connected with it in any way? 

Mr. Kuhx. No; I was not connected in any way. 

Mr. Whitley. I was under the impression at the time of my 
previous interview with you that you advised me that you Avere 
active ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No: I was not a member, and I was not active; not 
in the National Socialist Party. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you ever a member of that party? 

Mr. Kuhx. No; I was not a member of that party. 

Mr. Whitley. With what party or group were you affiliated? 

Mr. Kuhn. I was a member of the Reserve Officers' Corps. 

Mr. Whitley. Of what \ 

Mr. Kuhn. The Reserve officers. 

Mr. Whitley. The Reserve officers ? 

Mr. Kuhn. And I was a member of the so-called Steel Helmets, 
at that time, which is a veterans' legion outfit in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not have any definite political affiliations? 

Mr. Kuhn. Political relations; no. I fight the Communists there. 
I was in that revolution in Munich, active, of course, with officers 
of my old regiment. But I was not a member of the party, the 
National Socialist Party. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you take part or participate in the so-called 
beer-hall putsch? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I cannot. 

Mr. Whitley. In 1923?- 

Mr. Kuhn. No: because the record will show that I left Germany 
long before that. 

Mr. Whitley. That was in 1923, was it not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. I left in May 1923, and that happened on the 
9th of November 1923. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3713 

Mr Whitley. Does the German-American Bund have a board of 
directors or an executive committee? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; just the officers. We have a national conven- 
tion. 

Mr. Whitley. How often is that held? 

Mr. Kuhn. It has to be held once a year, and all the local units — 
so many members have a vote for a delegate, and the delegate is 
sent to the national convention. The national conventions have to 
be held once a year, and it is up to me to say when it is. 

Mr. Whitley. As the president of the bund you have practically 
unlimited power and authority in directing its affairs? 

Mi". Kuhn. Yes. I am only responsible to the national convention. 
The national convention gives me the power of attorney. 

Mr. Whitley. To act as you see fit? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Will 3 r ou describe or explain for the record, Mr. 
Kuhn. the purposes and objectives of your organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. We have the purposes and aims printed. I can put 
that in evidence, if you want. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have a copy of those with you '. 

Mr. Kuhn. I have the constitution here, and I have the purposes 
and aims here. 

Mr. Whitley. Are they very long? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, it takes quite awhile before you read them. 

Mr. Whitley. Shall we have those read? 

Mr. Mason. I suggest that we put them in the record. 

Mr. Whitley. You may put them in the record. 

(The documents referred to are as follows:) 

Constitution of the German American Bund — Amerikadeutscher 
Volksbund — New York, 3937 

preamble 

We associate ourselves together to unite all honorable, seriously minded, 
courageous and unselfish men and women of the Germanic race, loyal and 
prospective citizens of the United States, proud of their German blood, and 
treasuring German traditions, language, and ideals of national and individual 
liberty, justice, truth, duty, and absolute honesty, into one great, free, proud, 
and respect-commanding German-American Bund for the mutual benefit of 
the United States of America and Germany. 

Article I 

NAME 

The name of this organization shall be the German-American Bund and 
Prorpective Citizens' Association (German American Bund, Amerikadeutscher 
Volksbund), and it shall be hereinafter termed "the bund."' 

Article II 

AIMS AND PURPOSES 

The aims and purposes of this organization shall be — 

(1) Above all to uphold and defend the Constitution and the laws of the 
I nived States of America. 

(2) To respect and honor the flag and institutions of the United States of 
America, and to cultivate their lofty ideals. 

(3) To promote goodwill, lasting friendship, and continued beneficial rela- 
tions between the United States of America and Germanv. 



3714 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

1 4 ) To defend with all lawful means at our disposal the good name and 
honor of our mother country (Germany) against base defamation, willful and 
poisonous lies, and purposeful malice, emanating from many ill-wishing, jealous, 
avaricious, or ignorant source whatsoever, be it race, people, tribe, clan, nation, 
association, or individual : against propaganda spread by print, script, or 
mouth, openly or covertly, through books, magazines, newspapers, leaflets, or 
merely cowardly rumors. 

(5) To try to bring a better understanding to our American fellow citizens 
of the real and undisputable German achievements in the sciences and arts, 
the German inventions and contributions toward the advancement of agri- 
culture, industry, and commerce; the great, world-wide recognized German 
institutions of learning, the German high standard of the various professions, 
handcrafts, and labor, the outstanding German laws and institutions for the 
protection and welfare of the country as a whole, the ancient German ideals 
of liberty, justice, honor, and education. 

(6) To abstain from useless, harmful, and ignoble propaganda and incrim- 
inations of any kind. 

(7) To act at all times, everywhere, and under all conditions, as straight- 
forward, courageous, just, and honorable descendants of the Germanic race, 
setting an example of blameless conduct, thereby creating an atmosphere of 
genuine goodwill toward the German people and their Government. 

(8) To work incessantly and courageously for the fundamental right of 
every civilized nation to tend to its own business of self-government without 
interference from outsiders. 

(9) To cooperate freely and willingly with all persons of goodwill, to promote 
mutual understanding and friendship among nations, and for an honorable 
peace among mankind. 

(10) To keep our bund clean of heart and mind, banning all selfish inclina- 
tions, and to stand unwaveringly for our own as well as the welfare of our 
fellow citizens. 

(11) To be and remain worthy of our Germanic blood, our German mother- 
land, our German brothers and sisters, and to cultivate our German language, 
customs, and ideals : and to be upstandingly proud of these principles. 

(12) To always remember that only in unity there is strength, and that, 
if firmly united, we shall be of real value and a desirable and respected class of 
law abiding citizens of the United States of America. 

Article III 

ORGANIZATION 

The bund shall be organized in departments, districts, local units., and 
branches. A local having less than 20 members shall hereinafter be termed 
'branch." There shall be one department in the East comprising the local 
units in the States of Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Maine, Maryland, Massa- 
chusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, South 
Carolina, Pennsylvania. Rhode -Island, Virginia, Vermont, West Virginia, and 
Delaware, also including the District of Columbia. 

One department in the Middle West, comprising the local units in the States 
of Alabama, Arkansas. Illinois. Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, 
Michigan, Minnesota. Mississippi, Missouri, Wyoming, Ohio, Oklahoma, Ten- 
nessee, Texas, and Wisconsin ; and 

One department in the West comprising the local units in the States of 
Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico. 
Oregon, North Dakota. South Dakota, Utah, and Washington. 

There shall be as many districts within the departments as shall be from 
time to time fixed by the national convention of the bund or by the national 
executive committee. 

Article IV 

MEMBERSHIP 

Section 1. Membership in this bund is primarily open to all American and 
prospective citizens of Aryan blood, of German extraction, and of good reputa- 
tion. Membership may also be extended to other national elements filling the 
requirements of our membership application. 



assa- 



itional 



UN-AMERICAN VIH )1'A(JAN1 >A ACTIVITIES 3715 

Si i. _. An applicant may be admitted to the bund as si as lie receives 

his membership card, signed and approved by the national leader or Ids ac- 
credited representative. Admission to membership in any local or branch 
signifies membership in the national organization. 

Sec. •">. Application for membership may be rejected without stating the rea- 
sons for such rejection. 

Ski . 4. Withdrawal from membership of this organization must be made in 
writing and be accompanied by the surrender of the membership card and 
pin, as well as any other properly, belonging to or being significant of the bund. 
In such event the membership dues must he paid up until and for the month of 
withdrawal. 

Abticie V 

NATIONAL CONVENTION 

Section 1. The legislative body of the bund shall be the national convention, 
to be held annually in the first week of September, at a place to be fixed 
by the national executive committee by notice sent by mail to the various local 
units, at least 30 days prior to the date of such convention. The national 
executive committee shall have the power to postpone the date of the national 
convention for not more than 60 days, provided notice of such postponement 
is sent to the local units not later than July in. 

Six. 2. The basis of representation at the national convention shall be as 
follows: Each local group shall he entitled to 1 delegate for its first 200 mem- 
bers or less, and 1 delegate for each additional 200 members or major fraction 
thereof. 

Sec. 3. Each delegate shall be entitled to 1 vote. The vote of any delegate 
absent and not represented by an alternate shall be cast by the majority of the 
delegates present from his department. 

Sec. 4. A quorum shall exist in the national convention when 50 percent of 
the local units are represented as provided above. 

Article VI 

NATIONAL OFFICERS 

ne< tion 1. The national convention shall elect a national leader, who, in turn, 
shall have the power to nominate and, with the advice and consent of the 
national convention, shall appoint a national vice leader, a supervisor of na- 
tional organization, a national secretary, national treasurer, a public and 
political relations counsel, a supervisor of press affairs, and a supervisor of 
economic development. The office of national secretary and national treasurer 
may be held by one person. 

Sec. 2. Such officers shall serve until the adjournment of the succeeding 
national convention following their appointment and thereafter until their 
successors are chosen. Vacancies in these offices occurring between national 
conventions shall be filled by the national executive committee. 

Sec. 3. The national executive committee shall consist of the above officers, 
the department leaders, the national commander of the protective organization, 
and the leader of the youth division, all of whom shall be and with the advice 
and consent of the national convention, be appointed by the national leader. 
Any two or more of the above offices may be held by the' same person. 

Sec 4. In all cases arising out of the provision expressed in article XVI, 
section 2, also in such cases where the national executive committee has ac- 
quired property, real or personal, such national executive committee shall 
appoint three trustees whose duty is shall be to hold for the bund such prop- 
erty as trustees for the bund, unless otherwise specified in article XVI 
section 2. 

Article VII 

ORDER OF BUSINESS 

section 1. The order of business at the national convention shall be as 
follows : 

1. Call to order. 

2. Election of committee on credentials. 






3716 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

3. Presenting credentials. 

4. Report of committee on credentials. 

5. Roll call. 

6. Reading of the minutes. 

7. Appointment of committees. 

8. Reports of officers and the national executive committee. 

9. Nomination and election of officers. 

10. Reports of committees. 

11. Installation of officers. 

12. New business. 

13. Unfinished business. 

14. Adjournment. 

Akticle VIII 

The sequence of the above order of business may be altered or amplified by 
consent of the delegates at the national convention. 

Article IX 

Section 1. Duties of the national leader. — It shall be the duty of the leader to 
devote his whole time to the interests of the bund. He shall preside at all sessions 
of the national convention and of the national executive committee and shall 
perform the executive duties of the bund when the same is not in session and shall 
exercise a general supervision over the affairs of the bund : he may convene the 
national executive committee when deemed necessary and shall have authority 
to call a national convention at any time or upon request of the majority of the 
department leaders, if required. He shall have power to appoint deputy national 
officers to represent the bund ; he shall be empowered to adjust all grievances 
referred to him in conformity with this constitution : he shall interpret all laws 
relating to the bund and shall decide all controversies and appeals referred to 
him by local units or members thereof. Such decision shall be final unless reversed 
by the national inquiry and arbitration board at their first meeting after such 
decisions shall have been rendered. He shall grant and sign all charters emanat- 
ing from the bund and shall be jointly responsible with the national treasurer for 
the disbursements of all funds from the treasury of the bund ; he shall supervise 
the official publication and the management of the economic development ; he 
shall organize, or cause to be organized, all local units and shall have power to 
call local unit meetings and convene local units and may preside at any regular 
or special meeting of local units ; he shall have power to suspend or remove any 
district or local unit officer for sufficient cause, subject, however, to the right of 
appeal of such district and local unit officer as herein provided ; he shall also have 
the power to suspend or remove any department leader or any member of the na- 
tional executive committee, by and with the advice and consent of the majority of 
the national executive committee for a sufficient cause, subject, however, to the 
right of appeal of the aggrieved parties to, and a fair hearing by the national 
inquiry and arbitration board. He shall also have the right to suspend any 
member from membership pending filing of charges and hearing on such charges 
as hereinafter provided. 

Sec. 2. Impeachment of the national leader. — The national leader may he re- 
moved from office for good cause on impeachment proceedings brought upon motion 
by two-thirds of the members of the national executive committee. The national 
convention shall be the only authority to hear and try impeachment proceedings 
against the national leader. Immediately after charges, based upon such sup- 
port of a two-thirds decision of the national executive committee, have been filed 
with the chairman of the inquiry and arbitration board, it is the duty of the vice 
leader to call within 2 weeks a special national convention to decide place and time 
and try such charges as may be preferred. 

Sec. 3. Duties of rice national leader.— It shall be the duty of the vice national 
leader to devote his whole time to the interests of the bund. He shall assist the 
leader in the discharge of his duties at national conventions and shall perform such 
other duties as may be assigned to him by the leader. 

In the case of removal of the national leader from office or of his death, resigna- 
tion, or inability to discharge the powers and duties of said office, the same 
devolve on the vice national leader. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3717 

Sko. 4. Duties of the national secretary. — Ir shall be the duty of the national 
secretary to keep con-eel records of the proceedings of the national convention; 
preserve all important documents, papers, accounts, letters received, and copies 
of letters sent by him on business of the bund : he shall keep a general roll of all 
members with the name. age. number of card, and date of admission, together with 
a roll of all members suspended, transferred, etc. ; he shall receive all applications 
for charters and shall sign and grant same when authorized by the national 
leader : he shall have charge of the seal of the bund and affix the same to all 
official documents. 

Sec. 5. Duties of the national treasurer. — -The national treasurer shall receive 
all money due the national treasury and give bis receipt for the same: he shall 
deposit it in banks to be selected by the national leader, disbursements to be sub- 
ject to the joint signature of the national leader and the national treasurer ; he 
shall pay all legal bills due by the bund on recommendation of the national leader ; 
be shall give a bond to the bund in the amount of $2,500 for the faithful perform- 
ance of his duties. Should the amount of money in the hands of the national 
treasurer at any time exceed the amount for which he is bonded, the national 
executive committee shall proceed to have the bond raised to meet the requirements 
of the case. 

Sec. 6. Duties of supervisor of national organization. — It shall be the duty of 
the supervisor of national organization to devote his whole time to the bund. He 
shall have charge, under the national leader, of the formation of new local units 
and the forwarding of the work of the bund in all parts of the country. 

Sec. 7. Duties of public-relations counsel. — The public-relations counsel shall 
devote his whole time to the work of the bund. It shall be his duty to advance the 
principles of the bund in every legitimate way, so that the general public may 
obtain a true picture of the objects and purposes for which the bund is founded. 

Sec. 8. Duties of supervisor of press affairs. — The supervisor of press affairs 
shall give all his time to the bund. Under the direction of the national leader lie 
shall have charge of the official organs of the bund and such other relations with 
the press as he may be authorized to conduct by the national leader. 

Sec. 9. Duties of the supervisor of economic development. — It shall be the duty 
of the supervisor of economic development to encourage and foster trade by and 
between persons of Germanic blood in the United States and to take such measures 
to that end as he may be directed by the national leader. 

Article X 

COMPENSATION OF NATIONAL OFFICERS 

Section 1. The National officers shall receive such compensation from the 
funds of the bund as may be fixed by the national convention of the bund. 

Article XI 

NATIONAL EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE 

Section 1. Between national conventions, the administrative power shall be 
vested in the national executive committee constituted as above described. 
Such committee shall have the power to fix the salaries of department leaders, 
district leaders, and other subordinate officials or employees who may from time 
to time be appointed by the national leader or the national executive committee. 
It shall further have power to fill vacancies in all national, department, or dis- 
trict offices, its appointees to continue in office until the close of the national 
convention following their appointment. 

Article XII 

INQUIRY AND ARBITRATION BOARD 

Section 1. During the national convention the national leader shall nominate 
and. by and with the advice and consent of the national convention, shall appoint 
an inquiry and arbitration board of seven members, whose duty it shall be to 
hear and pass on all appeals and such matters as are exclusively under the 
jurisdiction of this board in accordance with this constitution. It shall also 

94931— 39— vol. 6 2 



3718 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

take cognizance of such other matters as may be referred to it by the national 
leader. The members of this board shall serve without compensation. 

Article XIII 

DEPARTMENT ORGANIZATION 

Section 1. Departments shall be chartered by the national executive committee 
and shall be composed of the local units within their respective areas. De- 
partment charters shall be signed by the national leader and the national 
secretary. 

Sec. 2. Each department shall have a department leader and department vice 
leader and such other officers as the department leader may determine. The 
department leaders and department vice leaders shall be nominated and, by 
and with the advice and consent of the national convention, shall be appointed 
by the national leader during the national convention and shall serve until the 
close of the next national convention, or until their successors are appointed. 

Sec. 3. Each department leader shall have general control of the affairs of his 
department, subject to the rulings of the national leader and as specified under 
article IX. He shall also have power to call department conventions at such 
times and places and for such purposes as he may deem best. 

Article XIV 

DISTRICT ORGANIZATION 

Section 1. The national executive committee, immediately after the close of 
the national convention, shall designate and prescribe the jurisdiction of the dis- 
tricts which it deems proper to constitute for administrative purposes. 

Sec. 2. The national leader, upon recommendation of the department leader, 
shall appoint the leaders of the respective districts so constituted, who shall 
serve until the close of the next succeeding national convention. 

Sec. 3. Each district leader shall have general control of the affairs of his 
district, subject to the rulings of his department leader and of the national 
leader. 

Article XV 

LOCAL UNIT ORGANIZATION 

Section 1. Each local unit shall receive a charter from the national leader. 
Local units may be formed by persons eligible to membership in the bund and 
shall receive a charter, providing the application therefor is favorably passed 
upon by the department leader and by the national leader. Local unit charters 
shall be countersigned by the department leader. 

Sec. 2. Whether or not the formation of such a local unit is advisable or 
timely shall be determined by the department leader of the department in whose 
area it lies. 

Article XVI 

RULES FOR LOCAL UNITS 

Section 1. Each local unit is governed by the constitution of the national 
organization. 

Sec. 2. All property, real or personal, except current funds, acquired by such 
local unit in the course of its existence, is to be held by trustees in trust for 
the local unit, with the proviso as expressed in the following section. Such 
trustees, three in number, to be elected during a membership meeting, shall 
file with the local leader a declaration of trust with relation to all such property 
of the local unit which is held by them, and shall give bond in such amount 
as the nature of the property held in trust requires. 

Seo. 3. The charter of any local unit may be suspended or revoked by the 
national leader for any of the following reasons: Improper conduct, refusing 
or neglecting to conform to this constitution and to the orders of the national 
leader or the national executive committee, neglecting or refusing to make its 
returns or reports, refusing or neglecting to install a successor to any officer 
removed by the national leader. But the charter shall not be suspended for 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3719 

any of the foregoing reasons until the local unit has been notified and an oppor- 
tunity given to answer charges against it. These charges shall be heard in 
the first instance by the national Leader, and it' be finds thai the charter should 
be revoked or suspended, the local unit may appeal, within 30 days in writing, 
to the national inquiry and arbitration board, whose decision is final. Should a 
local unit refuse to answer charges against it, the charter shall he suspended 
or revoked as the national Leader may determine. In case the charier of, a 
local unit is revoked, all property of the local unit shall become the property 
of the trustees of the bund. If the charter of a local unit is revoked or 
suspended by the national leader, and pending hearing of the charges and 
appeals, if any. from the decision of the national leader suspending or re- 
voking such charter, all of the property and funds held in trust for or in the 
name of the local unit shall be sequestered by the trustees of the bund and 
held by them pending the result of the hearing of the charges. 

Sec. 4. The local unit shall not withdraw from the bund or dissolve as long 
as five members in good standing object thereto. Before the withdrawal of 
any local unit, 3 months' notice in writing of such withdrawal must be given 
to the national leader, and all books, papers, charters, funds, and ail other 
properties returned to the national executive committee. 

Sec. 5. Each local unit shall have the following officers : Leader, vice leader, 
secretary, and treasurer, and such other officers as the local unit shall decide. 

Sec. 6. The leader, the vice leader, the secretary, and the treasurer shall be 
appointed upon recommendation of the district leader by the department 
leader, subject to approval by the national leader. 

Seo. 7. At a membership meeting in August of each year, each unit shall 
elect delegates to the national convention in accordance with the rules for 
representation provided in article V. 

Article XVII 

DUTIES OF MEMBERS 

Section 1. It shall be the duty of members to conduct themselves in a 
proper manner so as not to bring the bund into discredit ; to act loyally with 
respect to the bund, its officers, and members ; to refrain from encouraging 
or advocating division of funds of local units or of the bund, or the separation 
of any local unit from the bund, and to otherwise conform with and live up to 
the high ideals and principles set forth in article II. 

Sec. 2. A member can be expelled for the following reasons : Because of 
acts dishonorable and disgraceful in nature and character ; for acts contrary 
to the principles, aims, and purposes of the bund ; for scandalous and offensive 
acts tending to injure the reputation and esteem of the bund ; for default in 
payment of membership dues, if such default is not sufficiently excusable ; for 
knowingly and willfully giving false information while filing his membership 
application. 

Article XVIII 

EIGHTS OF MEMBERS 

Section 1. Every member of the bund shall be entitled to a fair hearing for 
offenses involving reprimand, suspension, or expulsion, except only for non- 
payment of clues or assessments. No member shall be placed on hearing unless 
charges duly specifying the offense, so as to fully apprize him of the nature 
jufb thereof and enable him to prepare his defense, have been presented to and 
^foi accepted by the local unit in writing, signed by a member of the local unit 
" Such or Dy the district, department, or national leader. 

Sec. 2. The local unit leader, the district leader, the department leader, and 
the national leader shall each have the power to suspend any member pending 
the hearing of charges againest him. If the charges are finally dismissed 
either after hearing or after appeal, the member charged shall be reinstated to 
membership and all dues which may have accrued pending his suspension shall 
be remitted. 

Sec. 3. At the meeting at which the charges are presented to the local unit, 
the leader of the local unit shall appoint a time and place for the holding of 
the hearing, not less than 1 week nor more than 2 weeks from the date of 
the meeting at which the charges were presented. Within 3 days after the 
date of the meeting at which the charges were presented, the secretary of 
the local unit shall forward a true written copy of the same and notice of 



g, si 
iropertJ 



[for 






3720 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

the date and place set for hearing to the accused by registered mail at his 
last known post-office address. Within the same time he shall also notify the 
member preferring the charges of the time and place set for the hearing, and 
such shall be notice for the person presenting the charges to attend or 
present a legal affidavit sustaining the information on which the charge was 
based, together with all evidence he may have appertaining thereto. 

Seo. 4. Such charges shall be submitted to an inquiry and arbitration com- 
mittee of five members to be appointed by the leader of the local unit. Such 
inquiry and arbitration board shall meet at the time and place set for the 
hearing of the charges and shall report to the local unit at its next membership 
meeting upon the disposition of such charges recommended by such inquiry 
and arbitration board. 

Sec. 5. If the inquiry and arbitration board shall recommend the expulsion, 
suspension, or reprimand of the person charged, and if the person charged, feel- 
ing aggrieved, desires to appeal, he shall have the right to appeal from the deci- 
sion of this local arbitration board to the next higher authority, which would 
be the department arbitration board, provided he forwards within 30 days, 
notice of his desire to appeal, together with all documents and statements 
tending to support such appeal. If the judgment of the local board is affirmed, 
the aggrieved has a further recourse to the national arbitration board as 
highest authority from whose decision there shall be no further appeal. 

Article XIX 

Section 1. The inquiry and arbitration board for local units and departments 
shall consist of five members who shall serve without compensation. A quorum 
in any of these boards exists when 3 of the 5 members of the respective boards 
are present. 

Article XX 

FINANCES 

Section 1. The national convention shall have the right to fix the dues for all 
local units and the proportion of the dues of each local unit which shall be paid 
over by the local unit to the national treasurer, the department treasurer, and 
auxiliary fund. 

Sec. 2. Each member shall also pay an initiation fee fixed, or to be fixed, by 
the national convention, which initiation fee shall be paid over in full to the 
national treasurer. 

Seo. 3. Each local unit shall pay to the national treasurer, department treas- 
urer, and auxiliary fund the proportion of the monthly dues which shall be 
fixed by the national convention to be paid to the respective treasurers. Such 
payments shall be made on or before the 10th day of the month preceding. 

Article XXI 

Responsibility and Property Rights 

Section 1. The organization does not assume responsibility for any claims of 
damages, caused by and accruing from the misdeeds of its individual members, 
and it expressly indemnifies itself against such charges and claims. The organ- 
ization assumes responsibility for such claims and damages only as may directly 
result from the duly authorized acts of its officers, rightfully holding title to 
their offices. 

Article XXII 

DISSOLUTION 

Section 1. The dissolution of the national organization can only be decided 
upon by a national convention, provided that 90 percent of the delegates entitled 
to be present and vote, or their duly accredited representatives are present, at 
such a convention, and provided that such motion is supported by a majority vote 
of three-fourths of all the votes eligible. 

Seo. 2. Should in such a manner a dissolution of this organization be resolved. 
said convention is entitled to dispose of the finances and any other tangible 
property of this organization, and if deemed advisable, to transfer it to such 
organization or organizations which are known as sponsoring and fostering a 
like movement. 



3721 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 
Article XXIII 

RATIFICATION 

Si a dion 1. All acts performed by prior officials of the bund and all charters 
heretofore granted by prior officials of the bund are hereby ratified and affirmed. 

Article XXIV 



tans- 



. w 



decided 
entitled 

Kent, it 
nty vote 

tangible 

• to * h 



AMENDMENT 

Section 1. This constitution may be amended at any national convention by 
a vote of two-thirds of the total authorized representation thereat, provided 
that the proposed amendment shall have been submitted through the national 
secretary to the various local units by mailing the same to them at least 30 days 
prior to the convening of the next national convention; and provided further 
thai this constitution may be amended by unanimous vote at any convention 
without notice. It may also be amended between national conventions, by a 
proxy vote of such a number of local units as would in a national convention be 
represented by two-thirds of the delegates thereof. 

This constitution was unanimously adopted at the national convention at 
"Deutschhorst," Croydon, Pa., in 1935, and amended in Buffalo, N. Y., in 1936. 

Purpose and Aims of the German-American Bund (Amerikadeutscher Volks- 
btjnd), Militant Organization of Patriotic Americans 

To unite all honorable, courageous, and loyal citizens and aspirants to citizen- 
ship of the United States of America, of German descent, proud of their blood 
traditions, language, and ideals of freedom, justice, duty, and absolute honesty, 
into one great, Nation-wide, respect-commanding German-American Bund, sol- 
emnly resolved : 

1. Above all to honor and defend the Constitution, flag, and institutions of 
these United States of America, and to cultivate the lofty ideals of the founders 
of the Nation. 

2. To zealously combat all atheistic teachings and all abuse of the pulpits 
designed to undermine the morals, ethics, or patriotism of Americans, and to 
as vigorously defend the right of every man to absolute religious freedom in 
every respect. 

3. To unequivocally oppose all racial intermixture between Aryans (white 
Gentiles! on the one hand, and Asiatics, Africans, or other non-Aryans on the 
other, to the end that the race-legislation already enacted in 28 States of 
the Union and to a degree incorporated in our country's immigration laws, may 
be scientifically perfected and applied throughout the Nation ; to earnestly strive 
to further a true respect, understanding, and friendship between these racially 
dissimilar groups, based upon a recognition and not upon a denial of the 
Almighty's immutable racial laws. 

4. To uncompromisingly fight, with every lawful means at our disposal, against 
all subversive internationalism, in order that Marxism and all allied phenomena, 
from the Communist Party which openly advocates the overthrow by force and 
violence of our Government, to the liberal-pacifistic forces undermining the 
morale of youth, from the alien-controlled, international so-called labor move- 
ments preaching the madness of class hatred throughout the world, to the rackets 
of international high finance which are enslaving the Nation, may be outlawed 
and uprooted; to just as stanchly champion every American political move- 
ment, labor organization, financial institution, etc., insofar as nothing is placed 
above the Nation and no alien leadership or domination is tolerated, serving the 
interests of true social justice, teaching each element of the citizenry to under- 
stand the need for cooperation with the others and recognizing as its ideal 
the following basic principle : "The common good before private gain." 

•j. To unite with all Americans defending the Aryan culture and code of 
ethics upon which this Nation was founded, helping to build a great American 
movement of liberation, in order that the dictatorship of a small, racially and 
ethically alien. Jewish-international minority, to which the mind of the entire 
Nation is rapidly being subjected, may be broken, restoring true proportionate 
representation to the 100,000,000 Aryan Americans in the vital fields of the 
press, radio, stage, screen, education, legislation, justice, finance, and the profes- 
sions, so that the aims outlined in the preceding paragraphs may be achieved 



3722 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

and these United States reconstituted the sovereign and independent, God- 
fearing and cultured, racially and ethically healthy Nation envisaged hy its 
founders. 

6. The swastika, our fighting symbol, has already become the common sign of 
recognition of defenders of Aryan nationalism against the Bolshevik scourge in 
Germany, Great Britain, White Russia, the Netherlands, the Scandinavian 
countries, Canada, and other countries, regardless of the form of government or 
religion involved ! 

The greeting of the outstretched right arm and hand, which means the 
same thing, is used by all these movements, and in addition by others in Italy, 
Prance, Belgium, Spain, etc. 

There can be no symbol or greeting better suited to unite the awakened, 
fighting, patriotic American millions .as well. 

7. To strive for a true peace, based upon mutual understanding and friend- 
ship between our country and others, by recognizing and respecting the differ- 
ences which exist between even the various Aryan nations and by defending the 
fundamental right of every civilized country to govern itself without inter- 
ference from outside, by disseminating among our countrymen all truths known 
to us concerning other countries and of value in serving the cause of such 
peace and friendship, and finally by exposing and combatting all atrocity and 
boycott propaganda, base defamation, distortion of news and malicious lies, 
tending to create hatred and a war-psychosis promising benefit only to the ever- 
lasting international parasites. 

8. To recognize as eternal law that only he can serve his God and country 
well who strives to develop his capabilities in accord with his inherited 
characteristics, and that consequently a renegade to his race cannot be a good 
American citizen ; to therefore defend our right to cherish the German lan- 
guage and German customs and our right and duty to defend the good name of 
all things German against slanderous attacks of any kind, emanating from any 
ill-wishing, jealous, avarcious, or ignorant source whatsoever, be it nation, race, 
tribe, association, or individual ; to force Nation-wide recognition of the in- 
controvertible fact that our organization desires to be no more and no less 
than a useful part of the desparately needed Great Aryan movement for a 
free and clean America, accords the same respect to every other element of 
our country's citizenry which it demands for ours, is as American as any 
other and is entitled to the same rights, and privileges under the Bill of Rights 
accorded to any other organization in the country. Free America ! 

All patriotic Aryan Americans, seeking truth and fighting spirit, are welcome 
at our meetings and in our ranks. 

Local units all over the country: frequent English-language meetings. 

Vacation camps for young and old. to cleanse heart and soul of the "red" 
rottenness rampant in the cities. 

German-American Business League, Inc. (DKV). to combat boycott rackets. 

Four newspapers free of Jewish domination, with rapidly growing English- 
language sections : 

Deutscher Weckruf unci Beobachter and the Free American, published by 
the A. V. Publishing Corporation. Inc.. I'. O. box 24, Station K, New York, 
N. Y. 

Philadelphia-Peutseher Weckruf unci Beobachter and the Free American. 
P. O. box 5020. Philadelphia, Pa. 

Deutscher Weckruf and the Free American. 3853 N. Western Avenue, Chicago, 
111. 

The above three publications are published weekly, subscription rate $3 per 
year. 

California Weckruf and the Free American, 634 West Fifteenth Street. Los 
Angeles, Calif. 

For more free literature kindly communicate with German-American Bund, 
National Headquarters, ITS East Eighty-fifth Street, room 6. New York. N. Y. 
Telephone BUtterfield 8-8847. Mail address. P. O. Box 1, Station K. New York, 
N. Y 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Knhn, will yon explain for the record the ad- 
ministrative set-up of your organization as to districts, departments, 
sections, and so forth? 

Mr. Krnx. The bund is divided into three divisions; East. Middle 
West, and West, and each division is divided into districts which are 
the States. 



"red" 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3723 

Mr. Whitley. How many districts are there; 48? 

Mr. Kuhn. Forty-seven. 

Mr. Whitley. Forty-seven districts? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What State does not have a district? 

Mr. Kuhn. Louisiana : and local units. 

Mr. Whitley. Local units within the districts? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, 

Mr. Whitley. How many local units are there, Mr. Kuhn? 

Mr. Kuhn. I cannot tell you exactly; around 100. 

The Chairman. Around 100, did he say? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Local units? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the smallest administrative group of the 
organization ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The local unit? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. And there are, you say, about 100? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Does the fact that you have no district organiza- 
tion for the State of Louisiana mean that you have no members in 
that State I 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Does each district organization which you have al- 
ready named have a department leader? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Does each district have a leader? 

Mr. Kuhn. No — well, if you want to call it the same thing — 
a department leader. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Does each local unit or group have a leader ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. It does? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In your administrative set-up do you have a plan 
of sending representatives to national conventions that elect the 
officers ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mi'. Whitley. Which decides the policies of the organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Does that convention elect all of the officers? 

Mr. Kuhn. Just elects the president. 

Mr. Whitley. And he in turn appoints the officers? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; appoints the officers. 

Mr. Whitley. The national officers and also the other officers? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. So you appoint the department heads and the heads 
of the local units? 

Mr. Kuhn. Xo; the local unit heads are appointed by the depart- 
ment. 

Mr. Whitley. By the department ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Subject to your approval? 



3724 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Subject to approval. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. What are the qualifications for membership 
in the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, they have to be American citizens and have to 
be an Aryan. 

Mr. Whitley. Have to be what? 

Mr. Kuhn. An Aryan. 

Mr. Whitley. Any other qualifications? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, they have to be in good standing, of course, and 
that is all. 

Mr. Whitley. What do you. mean by "Aryan"? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, what I mean 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). What is your interpretation, I mean? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, have to be a member of the white race. 

Mr. Whitley. White race? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What group do you consider members of the white 
race ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Everybody which belongs to the white race. 

Mr. Whitley. What groups do you exclude from the white race? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, for instance, the Asiatic races. 

Mr. Whitley. What? 

Mr. Kuhn. Asiatic races. 

Mr. Whitley. Any others excluded? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, for instance, the colored race. 

Mr. Whitley. Colored race. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Any others? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. What do you mean by "the Asiatic races"? All of 
them ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not all of them, not so far as the Nordic race is 
concerned. 

Mr. Starnes. What race in Asia do you consider the Nordic race? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I do not think that has anything to do with 
the investigation but I can, if you want, give my position on that. 
I mean 

Mr. Starnes (interposing). You do not consider the Japanese of 
the Nordic strain? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Or the Chinese? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. That is the yellow race ; that is the Asiatic yellow 
race. There is an Asiatic Nordic race. 

Mr. Starnes. I am trying to get what you mean when you name 
the race. 

Mr. Kuhn. The Asiatic race — I think I know what you want me 
to say; there are no Jews in the organization, if that is what you 
mean. 

Mr. Starnes. No; I just want to get your interpretation of what 
you consider the Nordic race. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, in Asia the only ones that are absolutely of the 
Nordic, of the Caucasian. 

Mr. Starnes. You do not consider people of India Caucasian? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; of course not. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3725 

Mr. Starnes. Persia? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Tibet? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is the same thing; the people of Tibet and 
Persia are the same as far as race is concerned; there is only a 
political 

Mr. Starnes (interposing). Palestine? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I never had a chance to decide that. What I 
mean, is a man's application has to be examined first. 

Mr.« Thomas. Each applicant has to file an application? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. What information do they have to give in the appli- 
cation ? 

Mr. Kuhn. They have to give their name and place of birth and 
have to show some paper that they are American citizens, which is 
investigated. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you have some members who are not American 
citizens ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; not to my knowledge; absolutely not. Ever 
since 1036 at the formation of the new organization, we could only 
take American citizens ; after 1936 each member had to be an Amer- 
ican citizen. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you have a questionnaire, a written question- 
naire ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; we have an application blank. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you have a copy of the application with you ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I have one here [handing to Mr. Thomas]. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn. Did you issue the order that only Amer- 
ican citizens were to be members of the German-American Bund \ 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, after the approval of the national convention. 

Mr. Whitley. You issued that order? 

Mr. Kuhn. After the approval of the national convention; the na- 
tional convention has decided that first. 

Mr. Whitley. The preceeding organization, the Friends of New 
Germany had both German and American citizens? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right ; it had German citizens. 

Mr. Whitley. At the time you changed the name of the organiza- 
tion ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did not change the name of the organization; the 
Friends of New Germany was dissolved. 

Mr. Whitley. It was completely dissolved ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely dissolved and the new organization was 
formed. 

Mr. Whitley. And that was one of the conditions of membership 
in the new organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, absolutely. 

Mr. Whitley. That the members were to be American citizens? 

Mr. Kuhn. American citizens to be members. 

Mi'. Whitley. Now that order was issued by you w,ith the ap- 
proval of the convention? 

Mr. Kuhn. Right. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, as I recall during our previous inter- 
view at the time you gave me a statement in New York, you advised 



■M 



3726 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

that those orders came from Germany through a consul in the United 
States ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know anything about that; I said I heard it. 
The German Government gave no orders so far as I know, no written 
order; I heard it. But that was done after we had taken action 
tirst. I was the one who brought that order up first, jn 1935 at 
the convention in Philadelphia, in 1935, when the Friends of New 
Germany — as the record shows — I was the one which brought that 
question up and demanded that all German citizens have to be taken 
out. 

A little later, as I said — I never saw a written order or anything 
of that kind, but I just heard the German Government, through its 
counsel service ordered that German citizens should get out of every 
political organization — it did not name the bund. It said every po- 
litical organization. That is absolutely correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever contact any representative of the 
German Government with reference to that order? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, yes; that is right. I was in Detroit at that time 
and I cooperated with the representative of the German Government 
in helping get the addresses of those in the former organization, the 
Friends of New Germany; I gave them the addresses so far as I 
knew them, of those who were German citizens. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. Well then as a matter of fact, Mr. Kuhn, 
what happened was that order which caused you to eliminate non- 
citizens from the new organization came from Germany? 

Mr. Kuhk. Absolutely not. They did just what I tried to empha- 
size at the organization, but the order did not come from Germany 
until afterward. 

Mr. Whitley. The order did come through which you have just 
indicated ; you said the order came through ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Just a minute. Let me finish. You said that an 
order came through; that is, that no German citizen could be con- 
nected with such an organization in this country, and that you 
helped, that you cooperated by giving the names and addresses of 
those who had been in the Friends of New Germany? 

Mr Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were not American citizens? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but I tried to emphasize the fact that we had the 
order first, in our organization, before the German order came 
through. 

Mr. Whitley. This order was issued before the bund was or- 
ganized ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I had the approval of the national convention. 

Mr Whitley. But you have already stated that you had both 
citizens of Germany and America in the Friends of New Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman May I interpose a question without interrupting 
your chain of thought '. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

The Chairman. Mr. Kuhn, the order from Germany had nothing 
to do with your action and activity, you said? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I said I never saw the order. 



- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3727 

The Chairman. Yes; but you said you cooperated with the council 
and furnished the names of German citizens who were members of 
the organization. 

Mr. KniN. Yes; as a matter of politeness. 
The Chairman. Politeness? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes: as there might be some German citizens who might 
still be in the organization and I did not want them. 

The Chairman. Did they ask you to furnish the addresses? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. Or the names? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. You did that as a matter of politeness? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely; politeness. 

The Chairman. Your only object was to be polite to the German 
consul '. 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh. yes. For a long time, back in 1934, in the national 
convention in Xew York I said that the German citizen has to be out 
if we want to make it a political organization. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Starnes. May I ask a question before you resume? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Why was it necessary for the German Government 
to issue an order? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, I do not know why they did. 

Mr. Starxes. But they did issue such an order? 

Mr. Kuhn. I heard about just as you. 

Mr. Starxes. Who told you about it? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, I don't know who told me. 

Mr. Starxes. Some representative of the German Government? 

Mr. Kuhn. Xo representative of the German Government told me. 

Mr. Starxes. But you did receive some knowledge or information 
to the effect that the German Government had issued an order requir- 
ing German citizens to disassociate themselves from such 
organizations ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That was not from a representative; that was in the 
newspapers. 

Mr. Starxes. Why was it you went to the German consular service 
in this country to give information as to German citizens? 

Mr. Kuhn. That was because I wanted them out of my organiza- 
tion. 

Mr. Starxes. Did the consul have any power to take them out ? 

Mr. Kfhx. I do not know that : I do not know what power he has. 
I suppose a consul would have some rights about the citizens of his 
country. 

Mr. Starxes. But you thought he had some power 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know what power he had; you would have to 
ask him. 

Mr. Starxes. I cannot understand your unusual politeness in this 
instance unless you thought there was some connection between the 
German Government and your organization. 

Mr. Kuhn. It was because I wanted them out of my organization. 

Mr. Starxes. You wanted them out of your organization because 
you wanted to transform the organization into a political organiza- 
tion ; is that correct ? 



3728 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct; a political organization; and citizens of an- 
other country have not anything to do in a political organization. 

Mr. Starnes. So it was for strategic reasons that you furnished 
this information about German citizens, whom you wanted out of 
the organization, so that you could have a political organization com- 
posed of American citizens? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; and at that time Mr. Dickstein was raising hell 
down here in Washington and making statements about foreign citi- 
zens, and I said we wanted to get these men out 

The Chairman (interposing). You have answered the question; 
do not volunteer remarks. 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). Well, he asked for an explanation. I 
was explaining the reason we did not want German citizens con- 
nected with the organization. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, as I understand from your explanation, 
the preceding organization, the Friends of New Germany, was a 
nonpolitical organization ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; it wasn't. 

Mr. Whitley. It was not? 

Mr. Kuhn. No — Well I do not know about it ; I wasn't head of it. 

Mr. Whitley. You were not head of it but you did hold an office, 
as I understand? 

Mr. Kuhn. That was later, a few months ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And at the same time you decided to call a con- 
vention to change the name and set up an organization which was 
to be a successor organization and which was to be a political or- 
ganization, and at the same time you decided to do that, with the 
approval of the convention, the German Government issued instruc- 
tions to remove all German citizens from that organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the sequence; I still do not quite under- 
stand. 

Mr. Kuhn. As I told you, as I tried to explain, if we were to try 
to build up a political organization — you can't have as members, 
citizens of another country in your organization, because as citizens 
of another country they don't have voting power, have the right to 
vote; and I believe that a man who is a citizen of another country 
should not be in a political organization. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that your idea to dissolve the Friends of New 
Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And set up a political organization ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That was my thought. 

The Chairman. Before you leave that point, Mr. Whitley, I want 
to ask another question if it will not interrupt you. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

The Chairman. Getting back to the question of furnishing these 
addresses I would like to get an explanation from you as to why it 
was necessary for you to go to the German consul and furnish him 
the addresses of German citizens in your organization. Why was 
that necessary? 

Mr. Kuhn. It wasn't necessary. 

The Chairman. What was the occasion for doing so if it wasn't 
necessary ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3729 

Mr. Kuhn. I gave the names of those members who were mem- 
bers of the Friends of Now Germany, the German citizens. 

The Chairman. Yon said the reason was that yon wanted to get 
them out of the organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. In other words yon thought he had some power 
to get them out of the organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

the Chairman. Then why did you go to him? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did not want them in the organization and wanted 
him to know who they were. 

The Chairman. And you gave the names to the German consul 
because yon thought he could do something about getting them out? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I don't know what power he had, or what action 
he could take; you would have to ask him or the German Govern- 
ment how much power he had. 

The Chairman. But you evidently thought he had some power 
when you went to him, did you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. You just went to him because you wanted to get 
them out of the organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; that is right; I told them their names and ad- 
dresses. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Whitley. At the same time the new organization, the Ger- 
man-American Bund was set up as a political organization with all 
American citizens, was there another group formed composed of 
German citizens, Mr. Kuhn? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, there is a group that is composed of prospec- 
tive citizens. Is that what you refer to? 

Mr. Whitley. I had in mind the Chicago German Bund. 

Mr. Kuhn. In Chicago? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is just a small group; that has nothing to do 
with our organization. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that composed of German citizens? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know — I mean all German citizens? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know who the head of that organization is ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I think — I do not recall his name. I think it is 
a man by the name of Eberling, I think; I do not know for sure; I 
never bothered with it. 

Mr. Whitley. Fritz Eberling? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. And that organization is composed of German citi- 
zens who were formerly in the Friends of New Germany but who 
these were not eligible for membership in the new political organization, 
the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, it might be that some of them are. 

Mr. Whitley. Some of them? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I do not have anything to do with them ; I could 
not tell you just how many. It is a very small group, in Chicago 
I only, and I didn't bother about them. 



3730 un-american propaganda activities 

Mr. Whitley. What is the membership- 



Mr. Kuhn (continuing). I agree with you that a part of its mem- 
bers were formerly members of the Friends of New Germany — that 
is entirely possible. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the extent of the cooperation and relation- 
ship between the German-American Bund and the German Bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. None. 

Mr. Whitley. None? 

Mr. Kuhn. None.at all; it is a small group, as I told you. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the only group? 

Mr. Kuhn. The only group that I know of, in Chicago. 

Mr. Whitley. Is there any other group or chapter of the German 
Bund any place? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not have one in New York ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the total membership of your organiza- 
tion, Mr. Kuhn, at the present time? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know; I can't tell you; I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not keep a membership list ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not anymore. 

Mr. Whitley. Not anymore? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. When did you destroy the membership list? 

Mr. Kuhn. About last year. 

Mr. Whitley. And what was the reason you destroyed it? 

Mr. Kuhn. The reason was there was rumor that there would be 
an investigation; that was before the McNaboe investigation of the 
State organization and we destroyed the membership list. That 
was before the McNaboe investigation. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you personally order the membership list of 
the German- American Bund destroyed? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You did ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes 



Mr. Whitley. Did you issue those orders m writing? ]f r g 



Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. As I recall during our previous interview, Mr. 
Kuhn, you advised that you ordered that list destroyed 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). Yes. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). Because of the Dies committee? 

Mr. Kuhn. It might be, as I said, the Dies committee was going 
into action at the same time the McNaboe investigation started; it 
doesn't matter; I would have destroyed it before the Dies committee 
started. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. Do you have any way of estimating the 
membership ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I have a rough estimate. 

Mr. Whitley. Of the total membership of your organization ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I can estimate it very roughly; there are a lot of 
new ones coming in and a lot of them going out. 

Mr. Whitley. You receive dues monthly from the members, 
active members of the organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not all of them. 



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UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3731 

Mr. Whitley. You are supposed to if they are in good standing? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Can't you approximate rather accurately from the 
amount of dues which come into you, plus a revision 

Mr. KriiN (interposing). I can approximate it, but we do not 
have a check on how many are on the list who do not pay dues, 
because a man who is out of work does not pay dues, and a lot of. 
men who are working only pay for a certain amount; a man with a 
certain amount of family to support pays half or two-thirds, and 
they do not send anything to headquarters except those who pay 
the full amount. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your best approximation of the present 
membership, throughout the United States at the present time? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, very roughly, around 20,000. 

Mr. Whitley. Around 20,000? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That is based upon the dues that you receive? 

Mr. Kuhn. Xo: that is not 



? 



Mr. Whitley (continuing). Plus verbal information? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is based upon reports which I get from new 
ones coming in, as I receive the new applications. 

Mr. Whitley. Has there been any very decided increase in mem- 
bership in the organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; not an increase. 

Mr. Whitley. There has been an increase in recent months? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, at the time I interviewed you several 
months ago you advised at that time definitely 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). There was a decrease. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). That the membership was not less 
than 75,000 and not more than 100,000, and you were corroborated 
by Mr. Kunzie. 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). Well, I think that was a little too 
high. 

Mr. Whitley. Would you like me to read the statement? 

Mr. Kuhn. If you want to. 

The Chairman. Let us hear it. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, reading from the transcript of our in- 
terview which was held in New York, March 25, 1939, page 16 of 
the transcript : 

Mr. Whitley. What is your best, to the best of your knowledge, and your 
best estimate — you should be able to judge — what is your opinion of the bund's 
membership in the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, we are sure of over 75,000, and sure under 100,000. 

Mr. Whitley. You are sure it is more than 75,000, and less than 100,000? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And that is your best estimate? 

Mr. Kuhn. A year ago, about 15,000. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, when I made that statement— I think it is a 
little high, and I can explain how you might have misunderstood me 
there. 

Mr. Whitley. I did not misunderstand you; this is the trans- 
script of the record. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but I counted in the membership many who are 
m the sympathizer group. 



3732 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. "Whitley. That is covered in another part of the transcript. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I might say that was figured on the sympa- 
thizers. The members in the sympathizers' group is about three or 
four times the bund's membership. 

Mr. "Whitley. Well, you gave me some more figures on the sym- 
pathizers' group. I will read that to you later. 

What is your present estimate of the number of members in 
the 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). I can't tell you the exact number. I 
can tell you roughly, that it runs from 20.000 to 25,000 members. 

Mr. Whitley. The membership is from 20,000 to 25,000. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That is your best estimate now ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you say that is very rough ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Very rough. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words your previous estimate was about 
50,000 higher than your present estimate? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, you understand that I took the sympathizers in 
the membership. 

The Chairman. But he said in his answer, which you read, he was 
sure it was a little over 75,000? 

Mr. Whitley. 75,000. 

The Chairman. That he was sure. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe, if my memory serves me correctly, you 
made the estimate after conferring with Mr. Kunze, who is head of 
the propaganda department. 

Now, you have a group of members known as sympathizers? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; not members. 

Mr. Whitley. Not members ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. They are the individuals who have indicated their 
sympathy with the organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And those individuals file applications to become 
members of the sympathizers' group ? 

Mr. Kuhn. They are not members. 

Mr. Whitley. They are listed as the sympathizers' group ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. But they do not have any voting privileges in the 
organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; they are not members. 

Mr. Whitley. What is their function; what functions do they 
perform ? 

Mr. Kuhn. None at all: nothing except sympathizers. 

Mr. Whitley. Do they attend meetings? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You just wanted to get in those who were in sym- 
pathy with you? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. But they do not take any part in the organziation, 
no vote? 

Mr. Kuhn. They pay the same dues; that is the idea, to get the 
money. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3733 

Mr. Whitley. They pay the same dues? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. As the regular members? 

Mr. Krnx. Yes; the same amount of money. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes; but are called sympathizers? 

Mr. Kuhn. Sympathizers. 

Mr. Whitley. But they pay dues '. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. ^takxes. You do not call them fellow travelers? 

Mr. Kmx. Call them what? 

Mr. Starx t es. You do not call them fellow travelers? 

Mr. Krnx. No; I have an application if you want to see it, which 
they used. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, what, to the best of your knowledge, and 
as head of the organization you ought to be able to make a fair 
approximation, what is your best estimate of the member of persons 
in that sympathizer group? 

Mr. Krnx. Well, I can't give any estimate at all. 

Mr. Whitley. You can't give any? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You get the applications? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you keep a card total do you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. But I do not know how many dropped out. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You know how many pay dues? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but I don't know how many drop out, who do 
not pay any more dues. 

Mr. Whitley. You can't give me from the amount coming in, of 
those paying dues, you could not venture an estimate as to the total 
number? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I could not say. It is two or three or four times 
as many as the regular members. 

Mr. Whitley. It is several times more than the membership, so if 
you say you have a membership of 25,000 — and you say at the present 
lime the membership is 25,000 — that would mean approximately 
100,000? 

Mr. Kuhn. Or 75,000. 
in the I Mr. Whitley. Of course, your previous figure of from 75,000 to 
100,000 would mean from 350,000 to one-half a million sympathizers. 
Now what is the basis of your sympathizers figure at the moment? 
, tlietl Mr. Kuhx. For the applications. I have an application blank. 

Mr. Whitley. Let me read you from the previous interview we 
had, what you said about the number of sympathizers. 

Mr. Thomas. While you are looking that up I would like to ask 
a question, if I may ? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. What dues do the sympathizers pay? 

Mr. Kuhn. The same as the members. 

Mr. Thomas. The same as the members. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. And what are the dues? 

94931— 39— vol. 6 3 



3734 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. They pay $1 on going in, with the application, and 75 
cents a month. 

Mr. Thomas. Seventy-five cents a month? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, $9 a year. 

Mr. Thomas. They pay $9 a year? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but that doesn't all come to headquarters; that 
stays at the local units. 

Mr. Thomas. So that is you have 2") ,000 members and 75,000 sympa- 
thizers that would be 100,000 all told, and you get $9 a year 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). That is, that would make $900,000 a 
year. 

Mr. Thomas. $900,000 a year. 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Thomas. And do you report to the delegates at the annual 
convention the receipts? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; a certified public accountant audits the books ; the 
books are audited by a C. P. A. 

Mr. Thomas. And you report the expenditures? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely. The certified public accountant makes up 
the statement, audits the national treasurer's records. 

Mr. Thomas. Approximately the amount the bund has received in 
the past year would be something in excess of $900,000? 

Mr. Kuhn. Can't be. As I told you all members don't pay the 
full dues ; and the headquarters don't get that. 

Mr. Thomas. Yes; but that goes into the bund's fund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. "What is the approximate amount? 

Mr. Kuhn. The local units have the money for the local units. 

The Chairman. Mr. Whitley, I think you ought to clarify the sit- 
uation with reference to the statement that only a short time ago he 
stated definitely that the membership was not less than 7">,000 and 
now he says 25,000, to let us know what caused this drop in so short a 
time. 

Mr. Whitley. Can you explain, Mr. Kuhn 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I explained to you I am under oath. 

Mr. Whitley. You are under oath. 

Mr. Kuhn. I am under oath now, and I say to the best of my 
knowledge I can only give you a rough estimation, but I say at a 
rough estimation we have around 20,000 members. 

The Chairman. What has the oath got to do with it ? Do you 
mean you would testify differently if you were not under oath? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, I don't; but I mean I took the sympathizers in. 

Mr Whitley. You went on and discussed the sympathizers sepa- 
rately. I will read you what you said about the sympathizers in 
conjunction with the same testimony. 

Mr. Kuhn. O. K. 

Mr. Whitley. Reading from the transcript of the interview on 
March 25, 1939, in New York, at page 17: 

Mr. Whitley. Referring to the latter part of that statement I have just read 
to you — "the fact has also been established that some 100,000 persons are willing 
to be seen at public manifestations of the bund" — of course that has to do 
with sympathizers who are not actual members but who are sympathizers, do 
you think that the figure is correct? 

Mr. Kuhn. It might he. I think that figure is low, as far as sympathizers 
are concerned — sympathizers are very, very often more than that. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3735 

Dr. Matthews. Sympathizing as to attending meetings or joining a parade? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is entirely different. We have hundreds of thousands 
of people who cannot afford to he scon with ns, but still wholeheartedly or 
partly sympathizing with us. It is hard to make an estimation, hut I have 
feelings — the way the reaction comes from the groups — I have a feeling thai 
our sympathizing groups is very much more. You can say it is from 1 to 10. 
I really have a feeling — don't you think so. Kunze? 

Dr. Matthews. Do you have anything like a name for sympathizers, like 
the Communists, you know, they call them the "fellow travelers"? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You have no organization for the sympathizers? 

Mr. Kuhn. We have a sympathizers' group. 

Dr. Matthews. You have that? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. They have no rights of members, and are just sympa- 
thizers. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, they come out and 

Dr. Matthews. What do you call that organization? You say you have 
an organization for them? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, no. We just give them membership cards, give them sympa- 
thizers' cards. The idea is to pay dues and just show that way that they are 
with us. 

Mr. Whitley. Now. that is the testimony there, in March, Mr. 
Kuhn, in which you state that you think the figure of 100,000 is low 
for the sympathizers' group. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, it might be correct to say "4 or 5 times 20,000. v 

Mr. AVhitley. Yoti say you think it is from 1 to 10. You just 
stated a moment ago in your testimony you thought it was 3 or 4 
to 1. You have revised your figures considerably in a short time. 

Mr. Starnes. Now- those 20,000 members you spoke of, that is an 
estimate of the number of all active members? 

Mr. Kuhn. Members of the German- American Bund. 

Mr! Staknes. And that includes dues-paying and non-dues-paying 
members ( 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; members. 

Mr. Staknes. Yes; because you stated a moment ago that for some 
time, or for a period of time, due to financial reasons, that members 
failed to pay their dues. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is quite true. 

Mr. Starnes. So that you are basing this estimate of 20,000 mem- 
bers on both the actual dues-paying and non-dues-paying member- 
ship ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Starnes. And that is for the whole United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. In how many organizations, or units— local units? 

Mr. Kuhn. I said around 100. 

Mr. Starnes. Can you tell us where they are located? 

Mr. Kuhn. Most of them; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. All right; tell us. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well where shall I begin— the East? 

Mr. Starnes. In the East. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, New York. In New York City we have five 
units— m .New York City. 

Mr. Starnes. How many in New York State « 

Mr. Kuhn. About 15. 

Mr. Starnes About 15. Where are those located in New York 
State, outside of the metropolitan area there in New York City? 



3736 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Starting from New York and going up to Pough- 
keepsie, Albany, Troy, Schenectady, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo — 
that is about all. 

Mr. Starnes. How many in New Jersey? 

Mr. Kuhn. In New Jersey — four, I think. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you any in Massachusetts, or 

Mr. Thomas (interposing). Pardon me. Where are they located 
in New Jersey? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is in Union City, in Newark, in Elizabeth, in 
Passaic, in Bergen County — and I forgot, Staten Island in New 
York. 

Mr. Starnes. Are there any in Massachusetts or the New England 
States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes How many, and where? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I have to count them. There is New Rochelle — ■ 
that is in New York ; I forgot that, I think. There is New Britain. 

Mr. Starnes. That is Connecticut? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is Connecticut. There is New Haven; there is 
Bridgeport; there is Danbury; Providence, R. I.; and Boston, and 
Ridgewood. 

Mr. St/rnes. That is in Massachusetts, also? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Then, roughly sneaking, you have seven in the New 
Enq-land area; four in Connecticut, one in Rhode Island, and two 
in Massachusetts; is that correct? 

Mr. Kuhn. Ab^ut correct; yes. 

Mr Stapnes. What about the State of Pennsylvania ; do you have 
anv there? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; Philadelphia. 

Mr. Starnes. How many? 

Mr. Kuhn. In Philadelphia ; two. I forrrot one in New Jersey 
now — Trenton, N. J.; Philadelphia, Pittsburgh. 

Mr. Starnes. Two in Philadelphia? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Have von any in West Virginia? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; Wheeling. 

Mr. Starnes. Any in Illinois? 

Mr. Kuhn. Chicago — that is all. 

Mr. Starnes Any in Michigan ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Detroit, Flint — that is all. 

Mr. Starnes. Wisconsin? 

Mr. Kuhn. Milwaukee. Kenosha, Sheboygan. 

Mr. Starnes. Any in California? 

Mr. Kuhn. San Diego, Los Angeles, Santa Barbara, Santa Mon- 
ica. Oakland, San Francisco, San Bernardino. 

Mr. Starnes. You have seven, then, in California? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Starnes. In what other western States? Do you have any in 
Oregon ? 

Mr. Kuhn. There is one ; yes, Portland. And in California there 
is Petaluma, and there is the San Pablo Valley. 

Mr. Starnes. That gives you nine in California ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Nine. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3737 

Mr. Starnes. You have more units in California than you have in 
any other States, save New York State? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; absolutely not. 

Mr. Starnes. In what other sections of the country do you have 
them '. 

Mr. Kuhn. Portland; in Washington, Seattle, and Spokane; in 
Utah, Salt Lake City; Nevada, Cheyenne City — no, Carson City; 
Texas. San Antonio ; Taylor, Tex.; Austin, Tex. Florida, Miami; 
Maryland, Baltimore. 

Mr. Stabnes. Have you any in Virginia? 

Mr. Kuhn. No — Oh, yes ; Virginia, is in Richmond. 

Mr. Starnes. In Richmond? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Any in North Carolina ? 

Mr. Kuhn. North Carolina — there is in St. Paul, Minn.; Indian- 
apolis, and St. Paul. Then in Cheyenne — that is Wyoming; and in 
Omaha. Nebr., and there is a little town I can't recall now, a small 
town — it is not the capital there, but a small town. I can't recall it 
right now. 

Mr. Starnes. In what other States ? 

Mr. Kuhn. In Albuquerque, N. Mex. ; Phoenix 

Mr. Mason. Have not you a written list of those units? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I have. 

Mr. Starnes. Will you supply that for the record? 

Mr. Kuhn. I will.* 

Mr. Starxes. And give us the States in which the units are lo- 
cated, and the towns in which they are located. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, when I interviewed you 
previously, you promised to furnish me with such a list, did you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes: I promised to. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever do that? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; because you promised to send me a statement 

Mr. Whitley. I sent you a copy of a transcript; that is what you 
asked for. 

Mr. Kuhn. I asked for that; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And the transcript showed every request I made for 
material of that type that 3^011 were to supply. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And I sent you a copy of the transcript at your 
request. There were quite a few other items mentioned there which 
you also promised to supply, each one identified in the transcript; 
but you never sent them. 

Mr. Starnes. You have none of those bund organizations in 
Tennessee '. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; Memphis. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have any in Arkansas? 

Mr. Kuhn. In Arkansas, Kansas City. 

Mr. Starnes. What? 

Mr. Kuhn. Kansas City. 

Mr. Starnes. Kansas City is in Kansas? 

Mr. Kuhn. In Kansas, right. 

Mr. Starnes. Or in Missouri, which? 

Mr. Kuhn. On geography, I am not so very good. 

*Note. — List appears in subsequent testimony, q. v. 



3738 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have any in Mississippi ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Where, in Mississippi? 

Mr. Kuhn. In St. Louis. 

Mr. Starnes. St. Louis — that is in Missouri. 

Mr. Kuhn. Missouri — in Mississippi, too. 

Mr. Whitley. Nearby St. Louis? 

Mr. Kuhn. By St. Louis, yes. Well, I will furnish you a list. 

Mr. Starnes. You will furnish that list? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. By States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. You missed a couple of States. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have any in Alabama? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Where? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know; I can't recall. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. Furnish a list by States and give us the 
number of units in each State, and the city in which located. 

Mr. Kuhn. O. K. 

Mr. Whitley. And you now want to revise your estimate of the 
number of members of the German-American Bund of "from 75 to 
100-000" to approximately "20,000"? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

The Chairman. And what is the total number of sympathizers who 
belong to the sympathizers' group? 

Mr. Kuhn. I told you I can only estimate roughly about three or 
four times so much as the members. 

The Chairman. Five times would be 100,000. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, it might be that; it might be more; I don't 
know how many svmpathizers we have. 

Mr. Whitley. Your previous estimate in that connection 

Mr. Kuhn. Was 1 to 10. 

Mr. Whitley. Was 1 to 10. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well that is figuring on some meetings, for instance, 
we have. 

The Chairman. At that point, Mr. Whitley, let me ask: You get 
the application blanks of all the people who join the sympathizers' 
list, do vou not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Then what is there that keeps you from giving 
some accurate estimate of them? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know we have them. After the membership 
card is made up and the investigation of the new applicant is 
through, the membership card is destroyed. 

The Chairman. You mean the application card is destroyed? 

Mr. Kuhn. The application card is destroyed. 

Mr. Starnes. Do not you keep a record of them; do not you have 
a membership book, or roll? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; you cannot any more. 

Mr. Starnes. You mean vou do not any more? 

Mr. Kuhn. T^e local unit does that, but not the headquarters; 
not anv more. We used to have a card of each member. 






iave 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3739 

Mr. Starnes. I see; the units keep them, but the headquarters do 
not keep them any more? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; they can't. 

Mr. Thomas. Why can't they? 

Mr. Kuhn. I have to protect my members. 

Mr. Thomas. That is why you do not keep a record any more ( 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely. 

Mr. Whitley. They are all American citizens? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. That don't make any difference; if they belong 
to the bund, they lose their job, and you know it. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, what percentage of the members of the 
bund are persons of German antecedents? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well I would say — that has changed too, now, very 
much so; but I would say about 40 percent of not German persons. 

Mr. Whitley. About 40 percent of the German-American Bund 
are not of German antecedents? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Does that same percentage hold true of the sym- 
pathizers' group? 

Mr. Kuhn. We don't know; because in the sympathizers' group 
we don't ask questions. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, do you have the applications for mem- 
bers written in German and also in English? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but, lately, we dropped the German ones. 

Mr. Whitley. But you have had them up to very recently? 

Mr. Kuhn. We have had them up to recently; yes. I even have 
here some in German, see. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you pass those down to me, please? 

You also have applications for sympathizers written both in Ger- 
man and in English? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Are those applications in German and in English 
all the same as to form? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. They are? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I make reference first, Mr. Kuhn, to the member- 
ship application written in 

Mr. Kuhn. Do you want them in evidence? 

Mr. Thomas. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I make reference, first, to the membership applica- 
tion written in English. In the upper right-hand corner of that ap- 
plication blank it states, "Voluntary donation, 50 cents, up." 

I now make reference to the membership application written in 
German. It states "Single voluntary propaganda contribution, 50 
cents up." 

What is the difference; what is the reason for that difference in 
the application blank written in German and the one written in 
English ? 

Mr. Kuhn. There is not any difference. I don't have the English 
one here now. There is not any difference. It means everyone can 
make a voluntary contribution, if they like it, but they should not 
make it in pennies ; they should not make it in less than 50 cents. 



3740 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. In the one instance, though, you seem to call — on 
the application written in English, you simply call it "voluntary 
donation, 50 cents up"? 

Mr. Kuiin. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. On the application written in German you call it 
"single voluntary propaganda contribution, 50 cents up" i 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That means that that contribution is for the pur- 
pose of carrying on propaganda activities? 

Mr. Kuiin. No. He gets the newspaper for that, 3 months, free, 
if he sends in at least 50 cents. It is absolutely voluntary; he don't 
have to; but if he gives that, he gets the newspaper for 3 months 
free. 

Mr. Whitley. You call the newspaper propaganda? 

Mr. Kuiin. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Kuiin. It does not say that — propaganda; the name "propa- 
ganda" is not used. The name "propaganda" is not used either in 
German or in English. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have a copy of the application written in 
German ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I only have a photostatic copy here — no; this is 
written in English, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Kuiin. That is the white one. 

The Chairman. This is the one right here [exhibiting]. 

Mr. Kuiin. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How would you translate that portion of the ap- 
plication for membership which is written in German, Mr. Kuhn? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, you have me on the exact word; I have to look 
up the dictionary ; but the meaning is "for enlightenment." 

Mr. Whitley. For enlightenment? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You would not call it "propaganda"; you would call 
it "enlightenment" ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, not propaganda ; it is something different. 

Mr. Whitley. Other translators might disagree? 

Mr. Kuhn. From its German language, we have to get it in 
Webster. 

The Chairman. Well, is the word different, then— the German 
word for propaganda? 

Mr. Kuhn. There is some similarity, if you want to say so; but 
propaganda is a matter 

The Chairman. What do you call "propaganda" in German? 

Mr. Kuhn. "Propaganda." 

The Chairman. Is that what you call it? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. What do you call "enlightenment"? 

Mr. Kuhn. Werbeung. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the word that appears on this application. 

The Chairman. What is the difference between "propaganda" and 
"enlightenment" ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well that is entirely different. One tells you the 
facts ; "enlightenment" tells you facts. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 374I 

The Chairman. "Propaganda" doesn't? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, not all the time. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, referring again to the membership 
application printed in German, on the left-hand margin of the appli- 
cation it states "Fill out completely and exactly"? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Now that does not appear on the application for 
membership written in English. 

Mr. Kuhn. It does not ? I don't know that. 

Mr. Whitley. Those are the two applications. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I believe you. 

Mr. Whitley. Is there an} 7 reason for that? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe you stated a moment ago that the two 
applications were exactly the same. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, they should be exactly the same. 

Mr. Whitley. Referring again or, rather, referring this time to 
the English application, Mr. Kuhn, it states, or rather it calls for, two 
references. It just has the statement "Two references," and there 
are two lines for those references. The application blank written 
in German calls for 

Mr. Kuhn. One witness in Germany and one witness in America. 

Mr. Whitley. This one written in German calls for "a person who 
will vouch for you in Germany." 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; that does not say that ; it says "a witness which is 
in Germany," a German witness. 

Mr. Whitley. You are right — and a person, or witness, or refer- 
ence in America ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Is there any reason for that difference in the 
two applications? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the reason ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Because if a man was born in Germany, we would like 
to know if he has a record there or not. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, could not a man filling out this application 
written in English have been born in Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, then, we ask him for that, if he is that, and 
German-born citizens. 

Mr. Whitley. He may be born in France and fill out an English 
application, and would not you want his references in France? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; we would get some references in France. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

The Chairman. Well, I do not exactly get it. Does that mean 
I if a man joins that he must furnish some witness in Germany? 

Mr. Whitley. That is right. 

The Chairman. With regard to him ? 

Mr. Whitley. If he is a German, he has to be recommended. 

Mr. Kuhn. No, Mr. Dies; it means every member has to give 
two witnesses. If he is German-born and educated up to a certain 
year, up to about 25 years, in Germany, then he has to give a German 
witness. 

The Chairman. Why do vou need that German witness? 



3742 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, it happens once in a while — we had it in a court 
case where it was brought out that the man was convicted in Ger- 
many for debt and was a member of the bund, but we did not know it. 
After that was found out, we wrote a letter to his home city and 
asked them about things there. 

The Chairman. But in the application written in English, you do 
not make such a requirement ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; we don't. 

The Chairman. Are not you just as anxious to find out? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is because he is born here. 

Mr. Thomas. Suppose that man has been convicted in Germany of 
larceny, would you allow him to stay in ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absohitely not. 

Mr. Thomas. In Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Thomas. Suppose a member of the bund was convicted of larceny 
in the United States, wouVl you allow him to stay in the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. 

The Chairman. Do his political connections in Germany have 
anything to do with his eligibility for membership? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. 

The Chairman. You do not ask, when you refer back to Germany, 
what the man's family's politics have b?en? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; and I will be able to furnish you and show you a 
lot of letters I wrote. We just want to know that the fellow's record 
is clear ; that is all. 

The Chairman. Right in that connection : You sav on the sym 
path ; z°rs' list, vou do not keep a record of that, at all? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Ch\irm*n. You destroy it immediately? 

Mr. Kuhn. After the man is checked up. There are always about 
50 to 100 in the office, and after the check-up comes in, then the 
membership card is made up and the application discarded. 

The Chairman. And from then on you keep no record of the man? 

Mi\ Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. Whv do you mit on the application : "Please don't 
use this space. No. (blank) — ''? 

Mr. Kuhn. As I said before, we had a record, they had a record 
and Ave kept these, and Ave hope the time is contents; Avhen we can keep 
them acrain, so Ave did not change the forms, and we have thousands 
of anplVation blanks sHll laying there. 

Mr. Whttley. Mr. Kuhn. the fact remains that when a person of 
German antecedents, a German, is making application, you get a 
recommendation on him from Germany before you take him in? 

Mr. Kuiin. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Noav if he is English, or French, or Spanish, or ' 
Scandinavian, you do not care what his background Avas in his own 
countrv; you do not check that? 

Mr. Kuhn Mr. Whitley, that is not so. 

Mr. Whitley. Well you haA 7 e the two blanks, which are entirely 
different in that respect, and that is a very logical explanation, is 
it not, or conclusion? 

Mr. Kuhn. As I told you before, vou might be right, the thing 
might be right, and we should say "All outside of United States born 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3743 

.should give witnesses in the particular land where they come from." 
That would be more correct; but I will be able to prove to you that 
we ask even in Scandinavia, if the 1 man is a Scandinavian: we ask 
even in England, if the man is English. The only purpose we ask 
that is because, and that came up in the Dillinger case: Dillinger is 
responsible for that, and I will tell you why. After Dillinger was 
shot, there came a telegram from London, England — I was in Detroit 
at that time; the headquarters was in Detroit, and there came a 
telegram that Dillinger was a member of the bund under No. 1841, 
see '. 

Mr. Whitley. In what chapter was that ; I mean what post of the 
bund was he a member of \ 

Mr. Kuhn. The bund. 

Mr. Thomas. What unit; where? 

Mr. Kuhn. Thev don't even sav a thin«; in the telegram; thev iust 
say a member of the bund and then gave the membership number — 
membership No. 1800 and so and so; I don't know T exactly; 1836, or 
1811, I don't know. Anyway, I checked right up, and it was easy to 
check up, because I had all the records, but I found the number — this 
was all I could do, on account of the telegram; I found that number 
was a member in Brooklyn. So at that time we changed the plan ; I 
changed the plan at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. Making further reference to the application for 
membership written in English, Mr. Kuhn, toward the bottom of the 
English application it reads as follows : "Only United States citizens 
are eligible for office." It does not say anything about membership ; 
it says "eligible for office." Is that the only limitation on citizens? 

Mr. Kuhn. I told you not, sir. Read the application. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, you have not changed your membership forms, 
then, to conform to the constitution; is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. What? 

Mr. Whitley. I say you have not changed your membership blank 
to conform to your constitution. You say, on your membership blank, 
that only American citizens are eligible for office. 

Mr. Kuhn. For membership in the bund. That is incorrect, then. 

Mr. Whitley. You have a blank there, have you? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; I haven't. 

Mr. Whitley. I just read from it, "Only United States citizens are 
eligible for office." Now, that statement does not appear at all on the 
application blank written in German ; there is no such statement of any 
kind regarding citizenship on the application blank written in German. 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, yes; it is. The only thing here is this says you 
have to give the number of your first citizenship papers, when, and 
where, and in which court; then it says, "Give the number of the 
second or final — the second, when and where, and in which court." 

Mr. Whitley. It does not say anything about being eligible for 
office, though, or qualifications for office, on the application blank? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, it does not say that, but it says, clearly, you have to 
give the number and the court in which you got your citizenship papers. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Kuhn. And we even ask when and where you immigrated. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Kuhn, you just referred to the constitution of the 
bund. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 



3744 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. Is that the pamphlet entitled '"Purpose and Aims"? 

Mr. Kuhn. The constitution is that book down there [indicating]. 
That is just a pamphlet. 

Mr. Thomas. Is the constitution approximately the same as Pur- 
pose and Amis? 

Mr. Kuhn. I suppose it is taken out of it. 

Mr. Thomas. It is taken out of the constitution ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Well there is no date on this Purpose and Aims. 
When was that published? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well I could not fell you exactly when it was published. 

Mr. Thomas. Approximately? 

Mr. Kuhn. Quite awhile ago. 

Mr. Thomas. How many years ago? 

Mr. Kuhn. I would say at least a year, or a year and a half ago. 

Mr. Thomas. A year and a half ago? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; I think so. I could not make an exact statement 
on that. 

Mr. Thomas. Has that constitution been changed very much in the 
past 2 years? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well there are a few amendments. 

Mr. Thomas. There were a few amendments at the last convention? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; not at the last convention. 

Mr. Thomas. What was the date of the last convention? 

Mr. Kuhn. The 2d, 3d. and 4th of Julv. 

Mr. Thomas. 1938? 

Mr. Kuhn. 1939. 

Mr. Thomas. And what was the date of the convention at which 
the constitution was amended? 

Mr. Kuhn. The first constitution had to be read twice in 1937. 
The first was in Buffalo in 1936. and the second was in New York, 
at the Hotel Biltmore, in 1937. 

Mr. Thomas. What I am trying to get at is, what was the ap- 
proximate date of the convention at which the constitution was 
amended. 

Mr. Kuhn. In 1937. 

Mr. Thomas. It has not been amended since 1937 ? 

Mr. Kuhn. In 1932 there were two amendments made. 

Mr. Thomas. What were those two amendments? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall exactly 

Mr. Thomas. Will you supply a statement of them for the record? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. This membership application is written in English, 
and in the lower left-hand corner there is a statement or space for 
voluntary donations. The German application in the lower left- 
hand corner has the same wording which was referred to a moment 
ago, which appears above, and which has been translated as "propa- 
ganda'' but which you say means "enlightenment." I simply wanted 
to make reference to the difference. Is there any reason for that? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; no particular reason. 

The Chairman. The difference is not due to undertaking to have 
Germans to contribute their funds for propaganda purposes in the 
United States — that is not the difference? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 



r.N-AUKHICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3745 

Mr. Whitley. Do yon have copies of the sympathizers' blanks? 

Mr. Knix. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Written in German and English? 

Mr. Knix. Yes. sir. It had been just in German. 

Mr. Thomas. At the convention this year, there were some amend- 
ments made \ 

Mr. Kuhx. If you call them amendments. They do not make 
use of any German applications at all. 

Mr. Thomas. You said a few minutes ago that there were no 
amendments made at the convention this year, and now you say 
there were amendments made this year: Which is correct? 

Mr. Ktjhn. If it was an amendment, I do not call it an amend- 
ment. 

Mr. Thomas. Was not the constitution amended this year? 

Mr. Knix. Not the constitution. Mr. Whitley asked the ques- 
tion, and I said they did not use German application blanks. Be- 
cause I said they did not use them any more, I did not mean it was 
an amendment of the principles of the constitution. 

Mr. Whitley. Without going into the details of it, the statement 
as to the difference between what appears on the German and Eng- 
lish application blanks for membership is also true with reference to 
the application blanks for sympathizers, as to the statement with re- 
gard to propaganda and voluntary donations. Now, what adminis- 
trative record does your organization keep? 

Mr. Kuhst. Financial reports and minutes of the national con- 
vention. 

Mr. Whitley. Including financial reports? 

Mr. Kuhx. The whole record of the national convention. 

Mr. Whitley. You have records of the routine and business affairs 
of the organization or records covering its activities? 

Mr. Kuhx. I do not know exactly what you mean. Please explain 
what you mean. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have complete financial records of the affairs 
of the organization and of allied organizations? 

Mr. Kuhx. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. They are kept by whom and where? 

Mr. Kuhx. They are kept by me and the national secretary. 

Mr. Whitley. You mean that they are in your custody, but you 
do not do the actual accounting work? 

Mr. Kuhx. No, sir; it is done by the national secretary with help- 
ers. So far as certifying the accounts is concerned, the money is 
handled entirely in the following way — I have that here. 

Mr. Whitley. As to the financial records, do your districts send in 
statements once a month \ 

Mr. Kuhx. I have some special forms. I thought I had them here. 

Mr. Whitley. Describe in general the nature of them. 

Mr. Kuhx. It is the form that gives the amount of money which 
is paid in for certain times. 

Mr. Whitley. Does each district or department make a monthly 
report as to its activities? 

Mr. Kuhx. Yes. sir: every local unit makes a report once a month 
of its activities, including how many meetings they have had, or how 
many membership meetings they have had, the "way they were at- 
tended, and approximately how many people attended. 



3746 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA. ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Those records are maintained at national head- 
quarters ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is the certified public accountant that handles 
your books? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was Mr. Wegner. 

Mr. Whitley. Is he a member of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his address? 

Mr. Kuhn. 70 Pine Street. I think. 

Mr. Whitley. You, of course.- maintain correspondence records? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; of course. 

Mr. Whitley. And minutes? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you maintain general administrative 
records, with the exception of membership lists \ 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. All under your custody and control, at national 
headquarters, in New York. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. You stated with reference to the monthly reports 
which every local unit sends in, that each local unit makes a report 
containing information other than reporting the number of members? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. If that is the case, I asked why it was? 

Mr. Kuhn. They do not report the membership at all. They 
used to. 

Mr. Whitley. Your answer to the last question is that they do not 
report rhe members? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. they do not report them. 

Mr. Whitley. You have to guess at the number of them ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. I see the amount of money for the local unit. 
For some reason, they may rent a house or buy a house. The money 
they send in we know. They report the money but they do not report 
the number of members. 

Mr. Whitley. But they do not report the number of members? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Will you supply for the record a copy of your finan- 
cial form on which the local units are required to make their reports? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. With reference to the financial statements, I would 
like to find out how many financial statements the units make to the 
national organization, and also what financial statements have been 
made during the last few years. 

Mr. Whitley. I am coming to that in a moment. 

Mr. Thomas. For the bund? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Kuhn. As for the membership fees, I have it for the headquar- 
ters only. 

Mr. Whitley. We will just discuss the bund. 

Mr. Kuhn. As to the membership fees and contributions? 

Mr. Whitley. What is that membership fee ? You mean the initia- 
tion fees? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3747 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. WiiriLEY. What is that? 

Mr. Kuhn. $1. 

Mr. Whitley. What are the monthly dues paid by each member 
to the national headquarters? 

Mr. Kuhn. The local unit does that. They are members of the 
local units. 

Mr. Whitley. What does the member pay the local unit? 

Mr. Kuhn. If he is able to pay, he pays the local 75 cents 
per month. That is paid to the local unit. The local unit decides 
that amount. If a man is out of work, or is working for only a 
short time, and not making enough money, then that may be reduced 
by one-half or one-third, or they will even let him go without paying 
anything so long as he is out of work. That is for the local unit 
to decide, 

Mr. Whitley. Each member is a member of a local unit? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What percentage of that is sent to the national 
headquarters? 

Mr. Kuhn. One-third of the fees that the members pay the local 
units goes to the headquarters. For instance, a unit has 100 mem- 
bers, and they will pay $25. If they have only 50 members, the local 
unit pays $12.50, or one-third of the money that they get in. 

Mr. Thomas. You said it was one-third, I believe. 

Mr. Kuhn. With 100 members, it would be $25. 

Mr. Thomas. Would not one-third be more than that? 

Mr. Kuhn. 100 members would pay $75, and one-third of that is 
$25.00. When they have only 50 who pay dues, it would be 50 times 
75 cents; or $12.50. Then it would be one-third of that, 

Mr. Whitley. Under your system, you do not know whether 
you are getting all of the money or not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; there is no check, because these people are 
honest, 

Mr. Whitley. Do they send it in a lump sum from the districts 
that report? Does the report show the amount being sent in? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That is for the maintenance of the headquarters? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. It gives the date of the local unit, the name 
of the local unit, the number of the unit, with the amount that 
is paid by months. 

Mr. Whitley. Those are two sources of income that you have 
named, the initiation fee and the monthly dues? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What are the other sources of income for the 
national organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. There is a very small income from the exchange of 
membership cards. A new member gets a membership card which 
is exchanged every two years for a membership book. For that 
•exchange they pay 25 cents to headquarters, and any contributions. 

Mr. Whitley. Approximately, what is the amount of the annual 
voluntary contributions ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That differs. It varies. For last year, it was very 
high. 

Mr. Whitley. What was it last year ? 



3748 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. It was high, or from our standpoint it was. For the 
last half of 1938 and first half of 1939 together, it was around, 
roughly, $18,000. 

Mr. Whitley. That came from individual members of the organ- 
ization? 

Mr. Kuhn. From individuals and friends. 

Mr. Whitley. From outsiders? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir ; lots of them. 

Mr. Whitley. And coming from other organizations? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. It was entirely from individuals? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. sir; from individuals. 

Mr. Whitley. Wore there any other sources of income? Were 
these people in the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir ; all in the United States. 

Mr. Whitley. There were no contributions from outside the 
United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Were they mostly scattered contributions, through- 
out the country, or were they mostly from the vicinity of New York? 

Mr. Kuhn. They come from all over the country. 

Mr. Whitley. And were sent to national headquarters? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Starnes. What was the largest contribution received last year? 

Mr. Kuhn. There was one for $500. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you recall who that was? 

Mr. Kuhn. That was just one. 

Mr. Starnes. Who was it? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall that. 

Mr. Starnes. What State did he come from ? 

Mr. Kuhn. New York. 

Mr. Starnes. Would you refresh your recollection about that and 
let us know who it was? 

Mr. Kuhn. I will try. 

Mr. Wuttley. Are there any other sources of income? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. sir; not for the bund. 

Mr. Whitley. How about the rallies that you sometimes hold, such 
as the gathering in Madison Square Garden? 

Mr. Kuhn. That was the only exception, the Madison Square 
Garden. That was made by headquarters direct. There was some 
surplus. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the surplus from that meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was not very high. It was a little over $1,000. 
Thev took in about $11,000, and we got about $1,000. It cost about 
$10,000. We took in $11,000. 

Mi'. Whitley. Those are the only sources of income for the na- 
tional headquarters? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What about publications? Do you get anything 
from that source? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is a separate corporation. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not get anything from that? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. We will take up the separate corporations later on. 

(Thereupon the committee took a recess until 1:15 p. m.) 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3749 

AFTER UFA 'ESS 

The committee resumed its session at 1 : 15 p. m. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order, and we will 
resume (he hearings. Mr. Whitley, you will continue your examina- 
tion. 

Mr. AVuitley. When we recessed, we were on matters concerning 
the bund's finances, and you had explained the manner in which the 
national headquarters obtained its funds, and the sources through 
which it secured its finances. Now, are there any other sources than 
these you have named '. 

Mr. Kuhn. Not for the German-American Bund. 

Mr. Whitley. How about the sale of uniforms and other equip- 
ment I 

Mr. Kuhn. The bund does not sell uniforms at all. Each man 
buys his own uniform. 

Air. Whitley. Does he buy uniforms through any particular 
source '. 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir ; he may buy them from different sources. Most 
of the shirts are bought from army and navy stores. 

Mr. Whitley. The bund has never acted as agent in the sale of 
uniforms \ 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; not as agent at all. There might come an 
order from outside of town, and they would give it attention. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever receive any commission from the sale 
of uniforms? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Those sources you have already described in the 
record constitute the only sources of income for the bund.? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. As to your local units and districts, through what 
channels are they financed? 

Mr. Kuhn. They do not have any income at all outside of the 
States in the East. The other districts do not have any income. 
The district leaders do not have any income. 

Mr. Whitley. They keep a percentage of the dues that are paid 
in? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; the eastern district does that. 

Mr. Whitley. In the Eastern States, what percentage of the dues 
do they have? 

Mr. Kuhn. Five cents for each member. 

Mr. Whitley. That is just to take care of the expense in connec- 
tion with the office of the district leader ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. W t hitley. The others in the Midwest and the far West dis- 
tricts do even have that \ 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. The district leader functions without any income 
of any kind? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. How about the units, or the various local units 
within the districts? What is their source of financing? 

Mr. Kuhn. They have the membership dues, two-thirds. 

Mr. Whitley. They have two-thirds? 

94931— 39— vol. 6 4 



3750 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. They have income from entertainments, 
social affairs, political affairs, and so forth. 

Mr. Whitley. Do they have any other source of income, other than 
membership clues ? 

Mr. Kuhn. As I say, from social affairs, or something like that. 

Mr. Whitley. They have no contributions locally? 

Mr. Kuhn. They might have. 

Mr. Whitley. Do they have to make quarterly or annual statements 
of their financial condition? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You keep that at the headquarters? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You say that as a part of the regular headquarters 
financial set-up, there is shown the financial condition of the various 
local groups? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mi-. Whitley. We will go on to the matter of financing the various 
affiliated organizations or corporations a little later on; but that covers 
thp headquarters organizations and the district local units. 

Mr Thomas. Would you bring in at that point the amount of re- 
ceipts and expenditures of the headquarters? 

Mr. Whitley. I might get Mr. Kuhn to state approximately what 
that is. As a matter of fact. I did not request him to bring that finan- 
cial statement. Can you state for the record the approximate amount 
of your annual budget at the national headquarters? 

Mr. Kuhn. I cannot recall exactly for two reasons: First, the na- 
tional treasurer has the records, and secondly, I may not be able to 
make a statement right now because they are in the hands of the district 
attornev's office. 

Mr. Thomas You could make an estimate of it. 

Mr. Kuhn. A very rough one. 

Mr. Thomas. I think we should have something on that subiect. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the annual operating cost of your office? 

Mr. Kuhn. Do you want me to give it weekly or monthly ? 

Mr. Thomas. Monthly. 

Mr. Kuhn. It covers rent of office. With the wages, including my 
own wa.P"es, it run*; between $800 and $1,000 per month. 

Mr. Whitley. That is per month? 

Mr. Kuhn. Per month. It includes also the cost of running the 
headquarters, including two employees. 

Mr. Whitley. Does that estimate also cover the usual office ad- 
ministrative expenses, postage, telephones, and so forth? 

Mr. Kuiin. Yes, sir; rent, telephone, light, and so forth. 

Mr. Thomas. Approximately, what are the total receipts per month? 

Mr. Kuhn. The total receipts average around $2,000 per month. 

Mr. Thomas. What sort of balance do you keep in the bank? 

Mr. Kuiin. It aU depends. There is always a balance in the bank. 

Mr. Thomas. What is the balance there now ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. 

Mr. Thomas. Approximately what is it? 

Mr. Kuiin. It. might be $2,000. 

Mr. Thomas. What bank do you use? 

Mr. Kuhn. The Manufacturers' Bank. 



IN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 375I 

Mr. Whitley. All the financial transactions of the organization are 
handled through banking institutions? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What branch is that of the Manufacturers' Bank? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is the Manufacturers' Bank of New York City. 

Mr. Thomas. What branch? 

Mr. Kuhn. The Third Avenue branch. 

Mr. Starnes. What United States district attorney's office has those 
records \ 

Mr. Kuhn. It is not the United States. It was the county, Dewey's 
office. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe yon stated a moment ago — in the first part 
of your answer — that yon got approximately $2,000 per month from 
dues? 

Mr. Kuhn. Roughly; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. If that is one-third of the dues paid from the source 
of these local units, that would mean 3,000 dues-paying members, on 
the basis of 75 cents per member. 

Mr. Kuhn. It might be. 

Mr. Thomas. Furthermore, if your expenses are from $800 to $1,000 
per month, and your receipts are $2,000 per month, I cannot see how 
you could have only $2,000 in the bank. 

Mr. Kuhn. I said for rent of office, wages, and so forth. There are 
other things. We have lawyers' fees. Then, do we not have pam- 
phlets to pay for, and printing? 

Mr. Thomas. You have other expenses other than the $800 to $1,000 ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. We have paid over $10,000 for lawyers. 

Mr. Thomas. You have paid $10,000 to lawyers? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. What is your law firm. 

Mr. Kuhn. We have different lawyers. We have five or six lawyers 
now. 

Mr. Thomas. All paid from headquarters? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. What are their names? 

Mr. Kuhn. I cannot recall the name in Los Angeles. In New York 
there is Mr. Collin Dayne. 

Mr. Whitley. Does your organization have a number of affiliated 
or allied organizations? 

Mr. Kuhn. We have different corporations, but they are business 
corporations. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you consider them affiliated or subsidiary organi- 
zations? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. They are absolutely corporations under the 
forms of law, and have nothing to do with the bund. 

Mr. Whitley. How about the women's unit ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is an auxiliary which we have. 

Mr. Whitley. That is a separate group? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. They have to be members. 

Mr. Whitley. If they are not members of the bund, they cannot 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). They cannot belong unless they are mem- 
bers first. 



3752 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. What is the function, what is the purpose of the 
women's unit? 

Mr. Kuhn. A lot of women get together and do all kinds of social 
work and charity work. 

Mr. Whitley. And does this group have any separate financing? 

Mr. Ktjhn. No — well, we may have some festival, and they use 
that money only for emergency purposes, when some family may 
need it, or when somebody may be sick, and the money they get 
from there is used only for charitable purposes. 

Mr. Whitley. Does the women's unit have its own officers? 

Mr. Kuhn. We have one woman at the head of it. 

Mr. Whitley. They participate principally in charity work? 

Mr. Ktjhn. In social work and charity work. 

Mr. Whitley. How about the German War Veterans; is that a 
subsidiary ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That has nothing to do with us. 

Mr. Whitley. No connection whatever? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Are any of the members of the bund members of 
the German War Veterans? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not to my knowledge ; but 

Mr. Whitley. It is an entirely separate organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely. 

Mr. Whitley. And you say it has nothing to do with the bund. 
How about the German-American Business League? 

Mr. Kuhn. It has its own corporation. 

Mr. Whitley. Where is that? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is incorporated in the State of New York. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you president of that corporation '. 

Mr. Kuhn. Right. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the purpose of that corporation \ 

Mr. Kuhn. We unite storekeepers. 

Mr. Whitley. Just explain for the record its functions, what its 
purpose is. 

Mr. Kuhn. These stores pay a membership fee of $3 a year; for 
the $3 we are registered in a book to be given out with some savings 
stamps and the savings stamps are on the basis of 3 percent. They 
offer them and you get 3 percent of the stamps, and if you turn in 
that book you get a refund of a dollar and a quarter. The mer- 
chants buy these stamps from the business league and pays them 
a dollar and a half, and 25 cents is necessary to keep the German- 
American Business League going. 

Mr. Whitley. You are president of the German-American Busi- 
ness League? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Where are the headquarters? 

Mi-. Kuhn. In New York; the same office with us. 

Mr. Whitley. The same headquarters? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. As 1 understand from your explanation, the mer- 
chants pay dues to belong to the league, and then they buy stamps? 

Mr. Kuhn. They do not pay dues; they pay $3 a year to be regis- 
tered in a special book which the business league puts out. 



its 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3753 

Mr. Whitley. That is to encourage people to purchase at tho.se 

stores ' 

Mr. Kunx. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Then they buy stamps from the organization, from 
the league \ 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Which they give the patrons when they purchase in 
their places of business? 

Mr. Ki nx. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. On the basis of those stamps the customers get a 
refund on purchases? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Approximately how many members, or business con- 
cerns, belong to the business league, Mr. Kuhn ? 

Mr. Kuhn. In the State of New York, where we are incorporated — 
we are incorporated in each State separately, and are separate organi- 
zations. In the State of New York we have a membership of 800, 
seven or eight hundred, I think; I am not quite sure, but it is around 
that figure. 

Mr. Whitley. Do the members of that league handle primarily 
German products ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; some of them do, yes; but some of them do not; 
some have German goods. 

Mr. Whitley. Do a majority of them belong to the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; they do not have to belong to the bund to be mem- 
bers of the business league. 

Mr. Whitley. But they have to be approved by the league before 
they become members and get their names listed. 

Mr. Kuhn. Of course. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the basis for membership in the league? 

Mr. Kunx*. They have to be a Christian store. 

Mr. Whitley. Any other qualifications? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; the usual qualifications, to be on the level with 
their business. 

Mr. Whitley. Do they have to secure references from Germany 
before they can be admitted to the league ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; not at all. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you can pass on them, as president, 
whether they are eligible or not? 

Mr. Kunx. I do not do it personally, but there is a staff which takes 
care of that. 

Mr. Whitley. Are the finances of the German-American Business 
League entirely separate from the finances of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Entirely separate. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you receive any salary in connection with your 
position as president of that league ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I receive $100 from the German-American Busi- 
ness League. 

Mr. Starnes. Per month ? 

Mr. Kuhn. But that is not extra; that is included in the $300 I 
mentioned before. As I said before, I am paid out of the different 
resources, and that is one of them. 



3754 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, they pay $100 a month on your 
salary? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

The Chairman. I understood him to say that there are 800 members 
in New York. What about the rest of the country? 

Mr. Whitley. I suppose every State has its own German- American 
Business League? 

Mr. Kuiin. Yes; but not all States have business leagues. 

Mr. Whitley. There is not more than one in any State ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the total membership in all States? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. 

The Chairman. Give us an approximation. 

Mr. Kuhn. I cannot give you that, because in the Middle West 
the league is administered by the leader. 

The Chairman. You say there are 800 members in New York? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; but I am not the president of the business league 
in Chicago. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you president of any business league other than 
the one in New York? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Is not the president usually the district leader, or 
one of the local leaders? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but it can be somebody else. But it is mostly the 
district leader or the local leader, or some other officer. 

Mr. Whitley. What about other places, for instance in Chicago? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was not the district leader at all. In New Jersey 

Mr. Whitlev. He would be a bund member, however? 

Mi-. Kuhn. Yes : but he does not have to be. 

Mr. Whitley. What happens to the profits that accrue from the 
operation of these 47 German-American business leagues throughout 
the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did not say we had 47. 

Mr. WruLEY. I thought you said you had them in each State. 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh. no. 

Mr. Whitley. How many are there in the different States? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. 

Mr. Whitley. Approximately. 

Mr. Kuhn. There might be 10 or 12. 

Mr. Whitlev. What happens to the profits that accrue from the 
operations of the league? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is to run their own business. They get 25 cents 
on each book. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you mean that the administration of the league 
takes all of the money — every penny that they take in? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. There is no profit? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Do they make any donations to the bund or any 
affiliated croups? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Wtitti.ey It is an entirely separate organization ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 



its 



QN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3755 

Mr. Whitley. Do the heads of the other leagues throughout the 
country have to make any reports to you as the Leader of the bund or 
the head of the league in New York? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not require any report or accounting from 

them \ 
Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. There is no such thing as a headquarters group for 
the German-American Business League? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You have a German title for the league, do you not, 
Mr. Kuhn — the Deutscher Verband? 

Mr. Kuhn. What is that? 

Mr. Whitley. Do you not have a German title? 

Mr. Kuhn. Surely; it is the German-American Business League; 
yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You use the German name? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You use the American name ( 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. Look at the book; we have a book that is all in 
English. 

Mr. Whitley. The German name is the Deutscher Tunschen Ver- 
band ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. The members do not have to be members of the 
bund ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no. 

Mr. Whitley. What are some of the allied or affiliated or sub- 
sidiary organizations ? 

Mr. Kuhn. There are not any affiliated organizations. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, in every instance the head of the 
organization is a bund member? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not necessarily; he does not have to be. If he is, it is 
all right ; but he does not have to be. 

Mr. Whitley. In every place the activities of the German-American 
Business League and the activities of the bund are very closely con- 
nected insofar as cooperation is concerned? 

Mr. Kuhn. Cooperation is right. 

Mi-. Whitley. And give each other mutual support? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I think the designation of a subsidiary or allied 
group does not necessarily imply a hard and fast connection, and it 
is not incorrect in that case. 

Hovr about the Prospective Citizens' League '. 

Mr. Kuhn. The Prospective Citizens' League belongs to the bund; 
that is a small group which has members of the bund. It lias been 
kept entirely separate from the bund which, as the name says, pre- 
pares for citizenship. We have to have the first papers, and have to 
be at least 2 years in the country before they can be a member. Then 
at the time they have to have citizenship, and if they do not get 
citizenship for some reason they would not be in the organization 
any more. They do not have any politics; they are just a social 
group. 






3756 rX-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA activities 

Mr. Whitley. Do they have their own separate officers? 

Mr. Kuhn. They have their own separate officers. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is the president of that group? 

Mr. Kuhn. There is no president : there is just one appointed 

Mr. Whitley. They are more or less under the direction of the 
bund \ 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; to a certain extent. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, it is a group of German 
citizens? 

Mr. Ktjhn. No: they do not have to be German citizens. Right 
now they have a lot of Irish who would like to become citizens. 

Mr. Whitley. They have to meet the requirements for member- 
ship in the bund, with the one exception, if they are not citizens 

Mr. Kuhn. No; they are not members of the bund. 

Mr. Whitley. They have to meet the same standards: they have 
to be eligible, except that they are not citizens? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Anyone in that group, if he is not a citizen, would 
be eligible for membership in the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. It is a group of prospective members of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right, 

Mr. Whitley. Just waiting until they become citizens before they 
are taken in officially? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right, 

Mr. Whitley. How many such members do you have throughout 
the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. There are not very many. In every large city there 
is one, about a dozen or so. 

Mr. Whitley. Just in the larger cities? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitiey. What is the approximate total membership of the 
Prospective Citizens' League? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know that, 

Mr. Whitley. You do not have any idea ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; I do not have any idea, 

Mr. Whitley. It is a group that comes together, affiliate them- 
selves together, pending the time when they can be taken into the 
bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. They do not have to go into the bund. 

Mr. Whitley. Is not that the purpose? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is entirely voluntary. 

Mr. Whitley. But the purpose is to encourage them to go in? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. The purpose is to help them to get 
citizenship. We have English teachers, and classes in American 
history. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have any classes in German history? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not at all. Some of them are Irish. 

Mr. Whitley. Do they attend the meetings of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. If they want to they can, the open meetings, not the 
membership meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. What percentage of the members of the league, after 
securing their citizenship, become members of the bund? 






ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3757 

Mr. Rutin. It is hard to say. After they are citizens, we have (<> 
make out new applications, so I cannot say that. 

The Chairman. You have had considerable experience with in- 
formers who become members of the bund, who are informers? A 
certain percentage of your membership are placed in there to get 
information, and act as spies, you might call it? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; we do not leave any spies. 

The Chairman. You have never had any of those in your organi- 
zation '. 

Mr. Kuhn. Outside? 

The Chairman. I am talking about the German-American bund. 
Have you had occasion to discover people in there solely to get 
information { 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. You never had any of that to contend with? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Are there any other affiliated or associated groups, 
Mr. Kuhn \ 

Mr. Kuhn. There are different corporations, as I said before. 

Mr. Whitley. What about the O. D., or the Orderly Division? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but that is for members only. 

Mr. Whitley. When did you change the name of that group from 
storm troopers to Orderly Division? 

Mr. Kuhn. Never changed that name. 

Mr. Whitley. In the past were they not known as storm troopers? 

Mr. Kuhn. Never known as storm troopers. 

Mr. Whitley. Never officially designated as such by the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. I founded the first one in Detroit. 

Mr. Whitley. Always known as the Orderly Division? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. They are bund members? 

Mr. Kuhn. They have to be. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it a separate organization '. 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; it is not. 

Mr. Whitley. They do not have their own groups or meetings, 
just for O. D. members? 

Mr. Kuhn. They might meet once in a while alone, socially. 

The Chairman. They are to maintain order at the meetings? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. That was modeled very much after what the Nazi 
Party had in Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not in them. 

The Chairman. You know they did have storm troopers in the 
beginning to keep order. 

Mr. Kuhn. Not so long as I was in the organization. 

The Chairman. They have the Orderly Division \ 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

The Chairman. For the purpose of keeping order. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That is where you got the idea ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Where! 1 

The Chairman. From the Orderly Division in Germany \ 



3758 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. There is not any Orderly Division in this league in 
New York. 

The Chairman. I thought you said in the beginning the Nazi 
Party itself had an Orderly Division. 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know anything about that at all; I was not a 
member there when I was there more than a year ago. 
The Chairman. You have been back since, have you not I 
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; twice. 

The Chairman. Did you have an opportunity to see whether they 
have an Orderly Division \ 
Mr. Kuhn. No; they have storm troopers, the S. A. and S. S. 

The Chairman. They are to keep order at the meetings; is not that 
true? 

Mr. Kuhn. I suppose they are: I never was in a meeting. 

Mr. Whitley. How about the German-American Settlement 
League ? i 

Mr. Kuhn. The German-American Settlement League is an abso- 
lutely d fferent organization, which owns one camp. 

Mr. Whitley. Where is that organization % 

Mr. Kuhn. It is in Brooklyn. 

Mr. W t hitley. What is its connection, if any, with the bund \ 

Mr. Kuhn. The members of the Settlement League can only be 
bund members. 

Mr. W t hitley. Only bund members can be members of the Settle- 
ment League? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Do they have separate officers? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is the head of that organization ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Right now a new president has been put in ; Mr. Miller 
is the president. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his first name ( 

Mr. Kuhn. Earnest — Earnest Miller. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have any official position in that organiza- 
tion ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I am a director. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it a corporation? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is a corporation, incorporated in the State of New 
York. 

Mr. W t hitley. How many members does it have, Mr. Kuhn ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Around 200.* 

Mr. Whitley. Are they all more or less located in and around New 
York; that is, the members? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; most of them are in Brooklyn. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the purpose of that organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. Just to own a camp. 

Mr. Whitley. Where is that camp located ? 

Mr. Kuhn. At Yaphank. 

Mr. AVhitley. They own Camp Siegfried? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do they own any other camps? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You finance that camp entirely? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3759 

Mr. Whitley. Do they receive any money from the bund? 

Mr, Kuiin. Once in a while there is a loan, if we are short of cash. 

Mr. Whitley. It is a separate organization set up to own and 
operate Camp Siegfried? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Are any of the other camps operated in that man- 
ner? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; they are all different organizations, different cor- 
porations. 

Mr. Thomas. All operated in the same way? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; Camp Siegfried is operated as a membership cor- 
poration. The other ones are business corporations. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the only one that is a membership cor- 
poration? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And the only exchange of finances is that sometimes 
you will loan them a little money. 

Mi". Kuhn. Very seldom. 

Mr. Whitley. Do they ever give the bund any money or any 
affiliated group of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. How about the German-American Bund Auxiliary? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is the I. N. C. That is the corporation which 
holds a camp in New Jersey. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it a New York corporation? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; that is a New Jersey corporation. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it a membership corporation? 

Mr. Kuhn. A business corporation. 

Mr. Whitley. A strictly business corporation? 

Mr. Kuhn. With seven members. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is the head of that? 

Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Kapproth. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his first name ? 

Mr. Kuhn. August. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his official position with the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. He is the local unit leader. 

Mr. Whitley. At what place in New Jersey ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Hudson County. 

Mr. Whitley. He is the head of the German-American Auxiliary? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; the president of it. 

Mr. Whitley. Which owns and operates 

Mr. Kuhn. Camp Andover, N. J. 

Mr. Whitley. Is there any exchange of finances there? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. He operates entirely independently? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely. 

Mr. Whitley. Does he have to make any report to the bund on 
the operation of that camp, or on the finances? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; he does not make any reports at all. He only 
makes reports to the director's meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. They do not report what they are doing, or what 
they plan to do, or anything of that kind? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Thomas. You are rather familiar with the operation of it? 



3760 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. What does their business consist of? 

Mr. Kuhn. To develop the camp, which consists of about 290 acres. 

Mr. Tn: mas. What does their income come from? 

Mr. Kuhn. It conies first from entrance fees, for some service when 
something 1 special is on, and for parking. 

Mr. Thomas. You do not have entrance fees, do you? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; on big days, such as the Fourth of July, or other 
davs they celebrate. 

Mr. Thomas. What else? 

Mr. Kuhn. Then there is the restaurant, for which the organization 
has to pay rent. 

Mr. Thomas. The greatest part of the income is from the restaurant? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but they have to pay rent. 

Mr. Thomas. But is not the largest part of the income of that cam}) 
from the restaurant ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Of course. 

Mr. Thomas. A very large percentage of it. So it is possible that 
if you did not get your liquor license it would put the camp out of 
business? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; it would not, 

Mr. Thomas. They received $41,000 last year from the restaurant? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Therefore, that is a pretty large part of the receipts. 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Thomas. If you did not get the $41,000 

Mr. Kuhn. We would get money somewhere else. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, as I recall, you told me at the time of our 
interview in New York that the different corporations which owned 
and operated camps made a report to you, I believe, at the opening of 
the camo for the season, or at the end of it, or both. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is voluntarily; the} 7 do not have to do that. 

Mr. AViiitley. Did you not also tell me that you had the power of 
veto, insofar as the selection of officers and directors for those cor- 
porations is concerned ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not of the corporations; I have, so far as the officers of 
the bund are concerned. We have in our contract set-up that Ave have 
to be members of the bund, the officers. If a man is not a member of 
the bund, he cannot be a director of the cam]). 

Mr. Whitley. And being a member of the bund, for practical 
purposes, means that he takes orders from you? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Even if he is president of the corporation running 
Camp Nordland? 

Mr. Kuhn. Insofar as 

Mi-. Whitley. If he did not operate that camp as you wanted it 
operated, you could throw him out of the bund, which would auto- 
matically eliminate him as an officer of the corporation? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I cannot throw him out of the bund without show- 
ing cause. 

Mr. AViiitley. If you did not like the w 7 ay he was running the 
camp you would not have any trouble in getting rid of him? 

Mr. Kuhn. If there is cause 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3761 

Mr. Whitley. You have the last say on anything; you do not give 
a man a trial before you throw him out, do you? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely. Each one has a right to defend himself. 

Mr. Whitley. So you contend that these camps are separate cor- 
porations and you have nothing to do with them; you do not have 
any check on them? 

Mr. Ktmx. If they voluntarily report to me that is up to them. 

Mr. Whitley. Do most of them see fit to voluntarily report to 
you ? 

Mr. Kuhx. Most of them do. 

Mr. Whitley. Have any of them ever failed to report to you on 
important matters of policy? 

Mr. Kuiix. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. There was nothing you could do about it; you 
had to take it. There are two other organizations, Mr. Kuhn, I 
would like to ask you about. There is the German Consumers' 
Association, a Xew York corporation. 

Mr. Kuiix. That is the German-American Business League; that 
f is the same thing. 

Mr. Whitley. Are those two names used interchangeably? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Which is the correct name? 

Mr. Kuhn. The German- American Business League. 

Mr. Whitley. Is the A. V. Publishing Co. a New York corpo- 
ration? 

Mr. Kuiix. Yes. 

Mr. "\\ hitley. Who is the head of that corporation? 

Mr. Kuhn. I am the president. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the purpose of that corporation? 

Mr. Kuiix. The printing of the newspaper. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that a weekly newspaper? 

Mr. Kuiix. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And the name of it is what? 

Mr. Kuhn. The Deutscher W T eckruf, or the Free American. 

Mr. Starnes. Published in the German language? 

Mr. Kuiix. Three-quarters in English and one-quarter in German. 

Mr. Whitley. Does that same corporation publish a paper in Chi- 
cago, in Philadelphia, and in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Those are separate publishing companies? 

Mr. Kuhx. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. They are incorporated in the States in which they 
operate ? 

Mr. Kuhx. In the States in which they publish a paper. 

Mr. Starxes. Do you have any interest in them? 

Mr. Kuhx. Nonprofit. 

Mr. Starxes. All of them nonprofit? 

Mr. Kuiix. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Do they report to you, or do you have anything to 
do with their editorial policies? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, I have; but I am not a director or officer of the 
corporation. 



3762 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. You do have something to say, in a general, directive 
sense with reference to the editorial policies of these papers, and the 
news policies? 

Mr. Kuhn. I can write an article, if I please. 

Mr. Starves. Who are the editors of the other papers? 

Mr. Kuhn. The editors in Los Angeles — and there is a paper in 
Chicago. 

Mr. Starnes. Are. they members of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Of course. 

Mr. Starnes Sure, and you are the head of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Sure. 

Mr. Starnes. Then they are responsible to you. and you do have 
direction? 

Mr. Kuhn. As bund members. 

Mr. Whitley. You are the president of the A. V. Corporation in 
New York? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is the editor of that paper? 

Mr. Kuhn. Wilhelm Kunze. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the circulation of that paper — the weekly 
circulation? 

Mr. Kuhn. I could not recall that. 

Mr. STArNES. Mr. Kunze would know, would he not? 

Mr. Kuhn. He might. 

Mr. Starnes. What officer in the A. V. Publishing Co. would know 
that ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I suppose the treasurer would. 

Mr. Starnes. Who is the treasurer? 

The Chairman. Do you mean to tell me you do not know what the 
weekly circulation of that paper is? 

Mr. Kuhn. I really do not, but you can find that out, because in 
the State of New York you have to report that. 

The Chairman. There is no question about that? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not bother about it: I cannot bother about all 
of the little details. 

Mr. Whitley. You are concerned more with the policies? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. What is the selling price of that paper? 

Mr. Kuhn. Five cents the copy, or $3 a year. 

Mr. Starnes. You merely direct the policies of these papers? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. You are responsible for the policies of all of them? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Do all of the members of the bund subscribe to the 
Deutscher Weckruf ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not unless they want to. 

Mr. Whitley. You could not sav whether the circulation weekly is 
approximately 1,200 or 12,000? 

Mr. Kuhn.' I could say that it is over 12,000; it might be 30,000. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the name of the corporation that owns and 
publishes the Weckruf in Philadelphia? 

Mi-. Kuhn. Tt is the Philadelphia Weckruf Corporation. 

Mr. Whitley. And the name of the paper there is the same as it 
is in New York? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3763 

Mr. Kuiin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is the head of that corporation? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is the local unit leader in Philadelphia. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his name? 

Mr. Kuiin. Mr. Martin. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his first name? 

Mr. Kuhn. Henry, I believe. 

Mr. Whitley. And is that paper operated in the same manner as 
the A. V. Publishing Co. operates? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Entirely separate? 

Mr. Kuiin. Entirely separate. 

Mr. Whitley. Are yon a member of the board of directors of any 
of those corporations? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Are yon a member of the board of directors of the 
camp corporations? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes: the Nordland. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that the only one of which you belong to the 
board of directors? 

Mr. Kuiin. I am a director of the bund of New Jersey. 

Mr. Whitley. And you do not know what the circulation of the 
Philadelphia paper is? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the name of the corporation that publishes 
the Chicago paper? 

Mr. Kuhn. Gratonia Publishing Corporation. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is the head of that corporation? 

Mr. Kuhn. George Froboese, the Middle West State leader. 

Mr. Whitley. He is your midwestern leader? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You are not a member of the board of directors, 
and do not hold any official position? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. And the Los Angeles paper: what is the name of 
the corporation that operates that? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know; I don't recall. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know who is the head of the corporation? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; Herman Schwinn. 

Mr. Whitley. He is your far- western leader? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do these corporations that publish your papers 
have to make any accounting or any report to you ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. None whatever? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Do they make such an accounting? 

Mr. Kuhn. Outside of the New York corporations, because I am 
the president there. 

Mr. Whitley. They do not make any accounting whatever? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you finance them to any extent, or in any 
manner ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 



3764 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. They are entirely independent and separate? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you a copy of one of those papers with you? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir: I have not. 

Mr. Thomas. What kind of news do these papers publish? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well. American politics, and news from all over the 
world, and some articles about social — it is divided into these dif- 
ferent things. 

Mr. Thomas. Is it mostly local news or foreign news? 

Mr. Kuhn. The most is local ; I mean the United States. It is 
not only New York. By local. I mean the United States. 

Mr. Thomas. You mean that news has to do with bund activities? 

Mr. Kuhn. With politics in the United States. There is half a 
page which is for the bund activities especially. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, are copies of these papers published in 
the various cities sent to Germany, or are they sent to any indi- 
viduals or organizations in Germany or in Canada? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; only if somebody subscribes for them. Of course, 
we have subscriptions coining from China; we have some all over 
tho world — very few of them. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you send any of them to Canada? 

Mr. Kuhn. Some of them go to Canada ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Are they sent gratis to any individuals or groups 
in this country? 

Mr. Kuhn." No. 

Mr. Whitley. Only to subscribers? 

Mr. Kuhn. Wait a minute. In this country, once in a while, if 
somebody applies for them or wants to know something about the 
organization, they send them a few copies free: but after two or 
three copies that they receive, they have to pay for them. 

Mr. Whitley. With reference to your statement a moment ago, 
Mr. Kuhn, that you were a director of Camp Nordland and Camp 
Siegfried, but not connected with any of the other camps in any 
official capacity, I read from page 38 of the transcript of my inter- 
view with you in New York on March 27, 1939: 

Question. Are there <"ny other, as far as the national corporation is con- 
cerned? I understand that each camp is a separate corporation. 

Mr. Kuhn. A separate corporation, and I am a director of each camp. 

Mr. Kuhn. I used to be. 

Mr. Whitlev. You u^ed to be? In other words, you have just 
recently changed that affiliation? 

Mr. Kuhn. About May. 

Mr. Whitley. That was subsequent to this interview that I had 
with you? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mi-. Whitley. Was there any reason for that change? 

Mi-. Kuhn. No; because it is not logical that I keep track of 
every cam]). 

Mr. Thomas. Is it not true that the old bund and the officials of 
the bund, in the last few months of this year, have changed their 
policies drastically in various matters? 

Mr. Kuhn. No: it is not any policy at all. It. is not a case of 
policy. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3765 

Mr. Thomas. The activities at camps have changed. Take Nord- 
land, for instance. The account of the activities of the first meeting 
at Nordland is very different from the account of the last meeting 
in Nordland. 

Mr. Kuhn. I suppose it is ; but you know why. 

Mr. Thomas. In other words, you have pulled in your horns quite 
a bit ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; we did not pull in anything, but we have to com- 
ply with the law. 

Mr. Thomas. But there was not any change of the law in New 
Jersey except as regards uniforms; and you changed a great many 
other activities there. 

Mr. Kuhn. No. The law says anything bearing the swastika. 

Mr. Thomas. So there were two changes; one was the uniform 
and the other was the use of the swastika ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. But is it not true that there were other changes? 
Do you mean to say that the recent meetings are just the same as 
they were? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, with what organizations, groups, or 
individuals does your organization cooperate? For instance, do you 
cooperate with any Italian groups or any Hungarian groups? 

Mr. Kuhn. Why, we cooperate with everybody which — to a cer- 
tain extent we cooperate with everybody which has the same pur- 
poses and aims that we have. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you name some of those groups or individuals 
with whom you have cooperated to any degree or to any extent ? 

Mr. Kuhn. For instance, we have had with us as guests once in 
a while the Italians out there. We had the White Front out there, 
and we had the Christian Front out there. 

Mr. Whitley. Where did you have the Christian Front ? 

Mr. Kuhn. For instance, at our meeting in the Bronx. We have 
the Social Justice Society. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you officially invite them to participate in these 
meetings or demonstrations ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; I don't invite nobody. 

Mr. Starnes. Was that at the Madison Square Garden that all these 
groups cooperated with you? 

Mr. Kuhn. They were invited for that particular meeting. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you name for the record the groups that were 
invited for that particular occasion, or which have been invited at 
any time, to participate in any functions or activities with the bund ? 

The Chairman. Well, he was naming them. He had gotten down 
to Social Justice, I think. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, now, I didn't talk about the Madison Square 
Garden. 

The Chairman. But you did say that the Social Justice League 

Mr. Kuhn. Society. 

The Chairman. That you cooperated with them? 

Mr. Kuhn. They came into our meeting. 

The Chairman. Now, who else besides the Social Justice Society? 
How about the Silver Shirts? Did you cooperate with them? 

94931—39 — vol. 6 5 



3766 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kdhn. I have never cooperated with the Silver Shirts at all. 

The Chairman. You never did have meetings with William Dudley 
Pelley? 

Mr. Kuhn. I met him once. 

The Chairman. That was the only time you met him? 

Mr. Kuhn. That was the only time I met him. 

Mr. Starnes. Where was that? 

Mr. Kuhn. In Los Angeles. 

Mr. Starnes. When? 

Mr. Kuhn. That was in the late fall of 1936. 

The Chairman. When was .the last time you talked to him over 
the long-distance telephone? 

Mr. Kuhn. I never talked to him over the long-distance telephone 
at all. 

The Chairman. When was the last time you have seen him? 

Mr. Kuhn. The last time was in November. I wrote him a letter 
inviting him to Madison Square Garden. 

The Chairman. Have there been any joint meetings between you 
and him at any time ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Never. 

Mr. Starnes. Did he come in response to your invitation? 

Mr. Kuhn. He did not. He did not even answer the letter. 

Mr. Whitley. Was George Deatherage there? 

Mr. Kuhn. I could not say. I didn't even talk to him. 

The Chairman. Outside of Social Justice, keep on down the list 
and give us the ones that you say you have cooperated with. 

Mr. Kuhn. By cooperating I mean that we go to their meetings 
and they come to our meetings. They get invitations to our meetings. 

The Chairman. You named Social Justice. What are some of the 
rest of them ? 

Mr. Kuhn. The Christian Front, Christian Mobilizer, and 
Christian Crusaders. 

The Chairman. The Ku Klux? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. You know — [Laughter.] 

The Chairman. All right ; go ahead. 

Mr. Whitley. What were the circumstances of your meeting with 
Mr. Pelley in Los Angeles, Mr. Kuhn? 

Mr. Kuhn. There wasn't any meeting. I was just in Los Angeles 
and I called on him. 

Mr. Whitley. You called on him in his office? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; in his office. 

Mr. Whttley. You walked into his office and gave the Nazi salute 
and said, "Heil Hitler"? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is ridiculous. We are not childish. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, maybe Mr. Pelley has a different version of 
it, then. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well. I don't care what he had. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you propose to him a coalition or a union of 
some kind between the Silver Shirts and the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Never. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not propose any such thing, but you did 
seek him out and go and visit him? 

Mr. Kuhn. I wont down there to see him. Of course, I saw him. 
I had a telephone call to him first and made an appointment and I 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3767 

talked to him for 15 minutes ; that is all ; and in 15 minutes you can't 
talk much about these things, but in most cases when you talk to a 
man for 15 minutes you know what he is. 

Mr. Starnes. For what purpose was the meeting, if not to form 
an alliance? 

Mr. Kuhn. Just as, for instance, if I would see Father Coughlin, 
if I desired. I like to see very famous men. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you consider Mr. Pelley a famous man? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, he is in the newspapers all the time. 

Mr. Starnes. And you called him and talked to him. Did you talk 
to him about the aims and purpose of his organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; absolutely not. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you tell him the purposes and aims of your 
organization ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Starnes. How far did you go with the proposal ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I didn't go at all. I talked to him 15 minutes. If I 
wanted something of you, I would tell you what I want, and I would 
see what you are in 15 minutes. Is not that the conclusion? 

Mr. Starnes. You saw what he was in that time ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And you walked out? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And you did not make any proposal except to invite 
him to Madison Square Garden ? 

Air. Kuhn. That is right. I did not invite him. 

Mr. Starnes. Who invited him? 

Mr. Kuhn. The secretary. 

Mr. Whitley. He was invited to speak? 

Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Pelley was invited to speak at the meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think he was; I don't know. You have the letter 
there. 

Mr. Whitley. Who else was invited to speak at that meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. General Moseley was invited. 

Mr. Whitley. Was Father Coughlin invited? 

Mr. Kuhn. The father was invited. 

Mr. Whitley. To make a speech at Madison Square Garden? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely. 

Mr. Whitley. And who else was invited ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I can't give you the exact list. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Mr. James True; was he invited? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; he was invited. 

Mr. Whitley. To speak, or just as an honored guest? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't think so, because some of them are not such 
very good speakers. 

Mr. Thomas. Who accepted all these invitations? 

Mr. Kuhn. Nobody that I know of. 

Mr. Whitley. Was Mr. Starenberg invited? 

Mr. Kuhn. Who is that ? I neverheard of him. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Starenberg is connected with the National 
American Association in New York. 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know that name. I don't think so. I can give 
you the complete list. I mean, the men who took care of that part 
can give you a complete list. 



3768 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. How about Mr. James Edward Smythe ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you had any relations or associations with 
Mr. Smythe? 

Mr. Kuhn. I should say not, 

Mr. Starnes. What was your purpose in getting in touch with 
Mr. Pelley? You had a purpose in view, of course. Tell us what 
it was. 

Mr. Kuhn. No; there wasn't any purpose at all. I was down in 
Los Angeles, and I heard he was there, and I wanted to meet the 
man. It is absolutely my privilege to meet whom I choose to meet. 

The Chairman. In the United States. 

Mr. Starnes. In the United States it is your privilege to do that, 
of course. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I mean — we are only talking about the United 
States. 

Mr. Starnes. Wasn't there some idea 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). No; there wasn't any idea; it was just- 
to meet the man. 

Mr. Starnes. Well, why was it when you saw him you did not 
want any more to do with him? 

Mi. Kuhn. Well, there are people that you like to associate with, 
and there are people that you don't like to associate with. 

Mr. Starnes. He headed one organization and you headed another 
organization ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, what is wrong with that ? 

Mr. Starnes. There was no purpose at all, then, in your meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. If the Silver Shirts would have a good organiza- 
tion, we might join them. 

Mr. Thomas. You do not think they are a good organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't say they are not good. I don't care for them 
at all. 

Mr. Mason. I gather from your remarks, Mr. Kuhn, that in your 
15 minutes' interview with Mr. Pelley you decided that it was the 
end; that you did not care for any more contact with him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Mason. Practically? 

Mr. Kuhn. No personal contact at all. 

Mr. Mason. And in those 15 minutes you learned at least that he 
could not teach you any tricks of the trade, shall we say? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I am sorry I can't tell you what you mean by 
"tricks of the trade." It is an expression which I don't know what 
you mean by it. 

Mr. Mason. Well, I mean just this; that you and your organization 
and Mr. Pelley and his organization, as I gather from the testimony 
that we have here, are money -making rackets based upon the credulity 
of the American people. 

Mr. Kuhn. Who said that? 

Mr. Mason. I am interpreting the testimony that we have listened 
to today and on other days about your organization and these other 
organizations. This is my interpretation. And that this credulity is 
played upon because of nationalistic ties, racial ties, and it is fed upon 
hatred of other groups, particularly the Jews. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3769 

Mr. Kuhn. You are referring now to the bund or to the Silver 
Shirts? 

Mr. Mason. I am referring to both. 

Mr. Kuhn. Then you are not correct. 

Mr. Mason. Because in your application you state definitely that 
they cannot have any Jewish blood. 

Mr. Kuhn. Of course I said that. If you belong to the Knights of 
Columbus, you have to be a Catholic; and I look for my own company. 

Mr. Mason. Yes; but if I belong to the Knights of Columbus and 
am a Catholic, I can be of any blood as long as I am of the Catholic 
faith. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mr. Mason. And the Knights of Columbus do not preach religious 
hatred. 

Mr. Kuhn. We do not either. 

Mr. Mason. And hatred of other religions. 

Mr. Kuhn. We never do. 

Mr. Mason. Hatred of Jews, it seems to me, is one of the cardinal 
principles of your organization, as well as the Silver Shirts. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is not true. All we want is for the Jews to let us 
alone. 

Mr. Mason. I am making my own interpretation of the evidence that 
has been presented. 

Mr. Starnes. I want to second what you have said. I have hereto- 
fore characterized it merely as a racket. 

Mr. Mason. That is all it is. 

Mr. Kuhn. Who is a racket? 

Mr. Starnes. What is the background of your movement? 

Mr. Kuhn. Do you call us a racket? You will have to go to the 
United States Court of Appeals before you call us a racket. 

Mr. Starnes. You answer the question. I do not have to answer 
your question. 

Mr. Kuhn. You accuse me of being a racketeer? 

Mr. Starnes. I want to know if you are not a member of the 
Friends of New Germany. 

Mr. Kuhn. I was. 

Mr. Starnes. When did you join that organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. In 1934, I think. 

Mr. Starnes. Is there any such organization in existence in this 
country now? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. What succeeded that organization in carrying out its 
purposes in this country? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, if you want — the bund did not succeed it. The 
bund was a new organization formed. 

Mr. Starnes. Were you ever a member of the German Bund in this 
country ? 

Mr. Kuhn. The German-American Bund ; sure. 

Mr. Starnes. No ; I mean the German Bund. 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know Fritz Gissibl? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Peter Gissibl ? 






3770 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; I know them. 

Mr. Starnes. They were members of the German Bund, were they 
not? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Starves. And Fritz Grissibl returned to Germany, did he not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. He is there now ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Peter Grissibl is in this country, and he is a member 
of your German-American Bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; he is not. 

Mr. Starnes. Has he ever been a member of it ? 

Mr. Kuhn. He was. 

Mr. Starnes. He was a leader? 

Mr. Kuhn. In Chicago — the local unit leader ; he was ; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. At one time the German Bund was composed of both 
German citizens and German-American citizens; is not that true? 

Mr. Kuhn. The German-American Bund; I don't have anything 
to do with the German Bund. I don't even know the purposes and 
aims of the German Bund. 

Mr. Starnes. Well, what are the aims of the German-American 
Bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. To unite the German-American element, in the first 
place. 

The Chairman. What do you want to unite them for ? 

Mr. Starnes. Just a minute. What are the other purposes? 

Mr. Kuhn. To fight the Communists in this country. 

Mr. Starnes. What next ? 

Mr. Kuhn. To give the German element a political background. 

Mr. Starnes. What else ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is about all. 

Mr. Starnes. In other words, then, you say that it is a political 
movement? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. Is it your purpose to establish a separate political 
party ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; if we are strong enough. 

Mr. Starnes. At the present time ? 

Mr. Kuhn. At the present time we pick our persons where we like. 
We are not Democrats or Republicans. We pick the best men. 

Mr. Starnes. But you do hope in time to establish a party? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, if it winds up like that; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. What is your party program ? Is that the only pro- 
gram you have — to unite the German-American element 

Mr. Kuhn. Sure. 

Mr. Starnes. And to fight the Communists and to build up a 
political party? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. That is your purpose? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. How do you expect to accomplish your purposes? 
Through what organizations or through what routes do you travel 
to accomplish your purposes? 

Mr. Kuhn. They are our own. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3771 

Mr. Starnes. Do you attempt to organize and seize control of the 
trade-union movements in this country? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you attempt to penetrate into our schools and 
colleges ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Starnes. You do have a German movement in this country? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Stai:nes. What is the purpose of that ? 

Mr. Kuhn. To educate them. 

Mr. Starnes. How do you expect to educate them? Are you not 
satisfied with the education that we give them? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely. 

Mr. Starnes. How do you expect to educate American children 
differently from the way in which we are educating them at the 
present time? 

Mr. Kuhn. Because our members are all poor people, people of 
the working class, and we take the children out. 

Mr. Starnes. Don't we have free public schools in this country? 

Mr. Kuhn. We do not have our own schools. 

Mr. Starnes. "Our"? Aren't you American citizens? 

Mr. Kuhn. Of course. They attend our schools, if you call them 
"our schools," especially in New York City. If you call them "our 
schools," I do not. 

Mr. Starnes. You do not call the schools in New York City your 
schools ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Starnes. You do not conduct any schools? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You have summer camps? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. You have a youth movement ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. In which you train boys and girls? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Air. Starnes. And in which you teach them and instruct them ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; we take them out of the streets because their par- 
ents cannot afford to take them out, and we give them a cheap place 
where they can enjoy the summer. 

Mr. Starnes. What do you give them in the way of instruction 
while they are out there? 

Mr. Kuhn. We let them swim; we have a beach out there. We 
give them sport; we give them training; we give them singing, and 
all that kind of sport. Why don't you come out? We invite you. 

Mr. Starnes. Do j^ou give them any instruction in language? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. We give them English and we give 
them German. 

Mr. Starnes. You teach them the German language, don't you? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And you give them governmental instruction, don't 
you? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. What do you give them, then? 

Mr. Kuhn. Just the German language. 



3772 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. I notice in your constitution, among the aims and 
purposes of the German-American Bund, No. 4 reads : 

• 

To defend with all lawful means at our disposal the good name and honor of 
our mother country (Germany) against base defamation, willful and poisonous 
lies, and purposeful malice emanating from any ill-wishing, jealous, avaricious, 
or ignorant source whatsoever, be it race, people, tribe, clan, nation, associa- 
tion, or individual ; against propaganda spread by print, script, mouth, openly, 
or covertly, through books, magazines, newspapers, leaflets, or merely cowardly 
rumors. 

Now, why is it necessary- 



Mr. Kuhn (interposing). Why don't you talk about — you are 
talking about youngsters. That is our organization. 

Mr. Starnes. Answer my question. I want to know why it is 
necessary for you to band together in this country for the purpose 
of defending by all lawful means at your disposal the good name and 
honor of your mother country, Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. "By all lawful means." Isn't that enough? 

Mr. Starnes. No ; I want to know why it is that you find it neces- 
sary to have American citizens to defend Germany. 

Mr. Kuhn. Because every time you open a paper you find lies 
about Germany. My interest is to have friendship outside, just as 
yours is if you are Irish, or whatever you are. 

Mr. Starnes. I am merely an American, although I have some 
Irish in me. 

Mr. Kuhn. So am I. 

Mr. Starnes. Section 5 reads: 

To try to bring a better understanding to our American fellow citizens of 
the real and undisputable German achievements in the sciences and arts, the 
German inventions and contributions toward the advancement of agriculture, 
industry, and commerce : the great world-wide recognized Gorman institu- 
tions of learning, the German high standard of the various professions, hand- 
crafts, and labor, the outstanding German laws and institutions for the pro- 
tection and welfare of the country as a whole, the ancient German ideals of 
liberty, justice, honor, and education. 

"Why is it necessary to set up a group of American citizens to 
bring about a better understanding and appreciation of another 
country's ideals, laws, and institutions? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is a matter of opinion. 

Mr. Starnes. Why dont' you try to direct the energies of your 
organization toward a better understanding of the ideals and insti- 
tutions of your own adopted country? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, where they come from — they come frome some- 
whore 

Mr. Starnes. It does not make any difference where they come 
from. If you become an adopted citizen of a country, then all j 7 our 
ideas of loyalty to the other country should cease. 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolntelv. 

Mr. Starnes. And this committee wants to know why it is neces- 
sarv for yon or any other person to set up in this country an organi- 
zation to teach the ideals, laws, and institutions of other countries. 
Can you answer that question? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, ves; I can. 

Mr. Stuines. All right; give us the reason why it is necossarv. 

Mr. Kuhn. It is nocessarv because everythinfr today that is com- 
ing from Germany is being picked on in a way that you can't stand it. 



. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3773 

The Chairman. You mean by that, attacks on the Nazi form of 
government ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; it has nothing to do with the Nazi form of govern- 
ment. We do not care about the Nazi form of government. 

Mr. Staenes. Section 11 reads: 

To be and remain worthy — 
Get that— 

To be and remain worthy of our Germanic blood, onr German motherland, 
onr German brothers and sisters, and to cultivate our German language, and 
customs and ideals ; and to be upstandingly proud of these principles. 

What is there about those things that you want to inculcate into 
American citizens to be proud of? What is there in the ideals and 
institutions that are Germanic that you want them to be proud of? 
Give us an answer to that question. 

Mr. Kuhn. In every line of art and science, where did it come 
from? Didn't a lot of it come from Germany? Because a man is 
a German inventor, I do not necessarily say that he is good, but 
merely because he is a German inventor you should not attack him. 

Mr. Starnes. What about the language? 

Mr. Kuhn. What is wrong with the language? 

Mr. Starnes. Why is it necessary for you to inculcate a love for 
that language in American citizens? What ideals are there that 
you want them to be upstandingly proud of? Are they the ideals 
of Germany today? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, absolutely not; and you know absolutely not. 

Mr. Starnes. By the way, did you make a visit to Germany in 
1936? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you meet Mr. Hitler while you were there ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did. " 

Mr. Starnes. Did you make a report to him ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I did not. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you make any contribution to him at that time ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Starnes. How much was it? 

Mr. Kuhn. About — around — under $3,000. 

Mr. Starnes. For what purpose? 

Mr. Kuhn. For winter relief. 

Mr. Starnes. Winter relief for German citizens? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. In Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. You went over to the Olympic in 1936 ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Right. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you carry over some of your uniformed groups 
at that time? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And you paraded in the streets of Berlin at that 
time? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. St.arnes. In a distinctive uniform? 

Mr. Kuhn. In an American uniform. 



; 



3774 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. An American uniform. What type was it — Army 
or Navv? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. It was not either of those ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. You wore the swastika arm band ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And you marched under the German flag? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; it was the American flag 1 . 

Mr. Starnes. And you did not have any German flag at that time ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; not one. 

Mr. Starnes. You do not have the bund flag any more? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not any more. 

Mr. Starnes. You have had it? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; years ago. I am not responsible for that. It is 
funny that our American Ambassador did not have any objection 

Mr. Starnes (interposing). Look at that picture of the Nordland 
Camp [handing photograph to the witness]. Is that an authentic 
picture ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so; yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. That is Camp Nordland? 

Mr. Kuhn. It looks like it might be. IT 

Mr. Starnes. Those are American children there? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Marching under the swastika of the German 
Government? 

Mr. Kuhn. Where is the swastika ? You made the statement that 
they were marching under the swastika. Where is the swastika? 
Where is the German flag in that picture? 

Mr. Starnes. Look at that picture [handing a photograph to the 
witnessl . 

Mr. Kuhn. That is me. 

Mr. Starnes. With Mr. Hitler, isn't it? 

Mr. Kuhn. With Mr. Hitler. 

Mr. Starnes. And you have Mr. Markmann there, too? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; Mr. Markmann is there. 

Mr. Starnes. He is your leader in the New York district? 

Mr. Kuhn. Riffht. 

Mr. Starnes. Were you making some report to Mr. Hitler ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; we did not make any report at all. 

Mr. Starnes. You did not tell him about the activities of the 
bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. We did not; no. 

Mr. Stapnes. And you did not tell him that you had a group of 
people of Germanic blood in America who were inculcating a love 
for the language, the customs, and the ideals of Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; we did not. We were not there for 10 minutes, 
and he asked us about the Olympic games and how we liked them. 

Mr. Starnes. That is all he asked you? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is all. Why don't you bring Mr. Hearst here 
and ask him about it ? He was there, too. 

Mr. Starnes. He did not give them any money? 

Mi'. Kuhn. Oh, no; he did not. Where is this half. million dol- 
lars in gold coming from? 









UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3775 

Mr. Starnes. He did not report to him as the head of an organi- 
zation? 

Mr. Kuiin. No; he did not. 

Mr. Starnes. And you did not? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I did not. 

Mr. Starnes. Look at this picture and see if that is authentic of 
your Chicago meeting [handing a photograph to the witness]. Is 
that authentic? 

Mr. Kuhn. It might be. I don't recall it. 

Mr. Starnes. Is that the swastika in the background ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is the swastika in the background; yes. What is 
wrong about that German flag there? 

Mr. Starnes. Look at this other picture of the Nordland Camp, 
and the young American children there [handing a photograph to 
the witness]. 

Mr. Kuhn. You showed me that. It does not show any swastika 
there. When the King of England came there was a lot of British 
flags out there, was there not? 

Mr. Starnes. Look at those two children there [handing a photo- 
graph to the witness]. 

Mr. Kuhn. Where is the swastika on that? That is a set picture. 
What that is I don't know. The background shows me. That is a 
set picture. Where you got that from I would like to know. We 
never make pictures like that. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you have the swastika at your Madison Square 
Garden meeting in New York City this year? 

Mr. Kuhn. We did not have any German flag there at all. If you 
would like to have it for the record, here is a speech that I delivered 
on April 17, 1938. There is a program, and if you want to, you can 
read it [handing a paper to Mr. Starnes] . 

Mr. Starnes. I hand you here what purports to be a picture of the 
national Nazi convention banquet, Biltmore Hotel, New York, on 
July 3, 1937. Look at that picture and say whether it is authentic. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I be on there. 

Mr. Starnes. You are on there, are you not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Don't you see who is there, speaking? 

Mr. Starnes. Are you not on that picture? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I am. 

Mr. Starnes. The swastika is displayed rather prominently there, 
is it not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, there are two American flags. So long as a 
German representative is there, you have to do it, you know. That 
is done everywhere, in the whole world. 

Mr. Starnes. You publish a yearbook, do you not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; we did twice. 

Mr. Starnes. You published one in 1937? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. I did not publish it, but 

Mr. Starnes. I notice here that you have a meeting in New York ; 
is that authentic [handing picture to witness]. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, if it is in the yearbook, it would be right. 

Mr. Starnes. At which the swastika is displayed. That swastika 
is the emblem of the modern German Government; is it not? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is not. 

Mr. Starnes. It is not? 



3776 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Ktthn. No; that is not. 

Mr. Starnes. When was it first used? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was used 4,000 years ago. 

Mr. Starnes. But when did the German Government first use it as 
a national emblem? Was it the national emblem in 1917? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Or 1914? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. It did not become the national emblem of the German 
Government until Hitler came into power, did it? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. • 

Mr. Starnes. That is correct, is it not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is absolutely correct. But that is an entirely 
different swastika. 

Mr. Starnes. And the German Bund was not organized until after 
Hitler rose in power — the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; you are wrong on that. 

Mr. Starnes. I believe you told me that the German-American 
Bund was organized in 1936, in Buffalo, did you not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. The bund; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Well, that is what I asked you. 

Mr. Kuhn. Long afterward; yes. 

Mr. Starves. Therefore, it was organized after Hitler came into 
power in Germany. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. But it has nothing to do with it. What has that 
to do with it? It was organized after Stalin was elected over there, 
too. So what about it? 

Mr. Starnes. You carry a statement from Hitler in your yearbook 
of 1937; do you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And you also carry one from Goebbels, Joseph 
Goebbels? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. In which he states, in effect, that Germany's ene- 
mies are your enemies ; is that right ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right ; they are yours, too. 

Mr. Starnes. Mine too; is that correct? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yours too; that is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. And her friends are my friends, too. That is his 
statement to you, is it not? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did not make that statement. 

Mr. Starnes. Will you read to us the English version of this 
statement that I hand you, that appears underneath the picture of 
Mr. Hitler and Mr. Goering? Will you give us the English trans- 
lation of that statement by Mr. Goebbels in the lower right-hand 
corner ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Hitler and Goering are on the balcony of the 
capitol over there; his office. 

Mr. Starnes. And they are watching the parade of yourself and 
your O. D. division? 

Mr. Kuhn. Watching the parade; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Give us the English translation of that statement 
by Minister Goebbels in the lower right-hand corner. 






his 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3777 

Mr. Kuhn (translating) : 

Your fatherland is Germany. Love it more than anything in words and in 
accomplishment. 

Mr. Staknes. That is, in deeds. 

Mr. Kuiin. Deeds. 

Mr. Starnes. More in deeds than otherwise, is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. Give us the rest of it. 

Mr. Kuhn (translating) : 

Germany's enemies are my enemies. 

Mr. Starnes. That is right. 

Mr. Kuhn. Are your enemies — addressing you — your enemies. 
[Translating :] 

Every citizen, even the little ones, is a part of Germany. 

Mr. Starnes. In other words, wherever you are, if you are of 
Germanic blood, you are a citizen of Germany; is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no. 

Mr. Starnes. Is not that the Nazi philosophy? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; it says exactly, "every German." 

Mr. Starnes. Wherever he is. 

Mr. Kuhn. So long as he is a German; yes. Just as an Ameri- 
can is an American wherever he is in the world. 

Mr. Whitley. Does it say "German citizen" or "every German"? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, you have no word for this German word here. 
It means you have to be a part of the nation. 

Mr. Starnes. Give us the rest of that statement now. 

Mr. Kuhn (translating) : 

You have to fulfill not only rights but duties ; and if every German does 
that Germany will be great, will be successful. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you read that part of the statement which said 
that Germany's enemies are your enemies? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. What is the political purpose back of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. I just told you, to fight against the Communists, every 
communistic idea. 

Mr. Starnes. You say, then, that the bund is an antidote to com- 
munism, is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; absolutely. 

Mr. Starnes. It is also anti-Semitic in its purposes? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. What is its connection with the German Govern- 
ment? 

Mr. Kuhn. It has not any connection at all. 

Mr. Starnes. Those are the aims and ideals of the present Ger- 
man Government ; are they not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not at all. I just have a speech which I delivered — 
I showed it to the gentlemen here; read it, where I said in 1936, 
in our program, that 

Mr. Starnes. Is not Mr. Hitler against the Communists? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. Aren't you against the Communists? 

Mr. Starnes. Is not Mr. Hitler anti-Semitic? 



3778 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Aren't you anti-Semitic"? 

Mr. Starnes. I am asking you the question. Is not Mr. Hitler 
anti-Semitic? 

Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so, from what I hear. 

Mr. Starnes. Has he not driven hundreds of thousands of those 
unfortunate people out of his country ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Have not the Communists driven hundreds of thou- 
sands of people out of Russia? 

Mr. Starnes. I am asking you the question with reference to the 
treatment of the Jews in Germany. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is up to Mr. Hitler, not to me. What do I have 
to do with Mr. Hitler? Subpena Mr. Hitler here. 
p Mr. Starnes. You want to establish a party with the same posi- 
tion in this country, do you not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is absolutely a lie. 

Mr. Starnes. Don't you call me a liar. 

Did you not a moment ago testify that the purpose of your 
organization was to fight communism? 

Mr. Kuhn. To fight communism ; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And did you not also testify that you were against 
the Jews? Is not that true? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. What is there untruthful, then, about that state- 
ment? 

Mr. Kuhn. You said I have something to do with the German 
Government. 

Mr. Starnes. I said what? 

Mr. Kuhn. You said I have something to do with the German 
Government. 

Mr. Starnes. I asked if you had something to do with it, and you 
said, "No." 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. And then I asked you if your purposes were not 
the same in that you were against communism and you were against 
the Jews, and now your answer is "yes"; is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. So are you. 

The Chairman. Make your answers responsive. 

Mr. Kuhn. Put the questions so I can answer them "yes" or 
"no." 

Mr. Starnes. Do you receive any propaganda from Germany, from 
any source? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; I do not. 

Mr. Starnes. None whatsoever? 

Mr. Kuhn. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Starnes. Does not your organization or do you have anything 
to do with the Ausland Institute at Stuttgart? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not so much [illustrating]. 

Mr. Starnes. What is the Ausland Institute ; do you know ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I might be wrong. I only tell you what I know 
about it. The Ausland Institute in Stuttgart' that you are referring 
to is an institution which is dealing with — it is a party institution, 
if I understand right, and they do not even deal with the German citi- 
zen. They only deal with the Nazi, with members of the Nazi Party. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3779 

Mr. Starnes. Is it not an organization which tries to spread a 
love for German ideals and language and customs throughout the 
world ? 

Mr. Kuiin. Not to my knowledge. And if it is so, I do not know 
anything about it. I have nothing to do with it. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know how it is financed? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not. I really do not. 

Mr. Starnes. You said a moment ago that it was the purpose of 
your organization to carry on a program of enlightenment. What 
sort of enlightenment? 

Mr. Kuhn. Against the Communists. 

Mr. Starnes. Against the Communists? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; against corruption. 

Mr. Starnes. Against corruption? 

Mr. Kuhn. Right. 

Mr. Starnes. You raise funds for your purposes in three ways. 
First, by your initiation dues; is that right? Those are dues of $1 
per member; is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. Secondly, by monthly dues. That is right, that is 
another means? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is all in the record. 

Mr. Starnes. And the third is by voluntary contributions. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. How do you spread that program of enlightenment? 

Mr. Kuhn. You see, for instance, a few things here. We cannot 
do very much because we have not the money. I wish I could do 
more. For instance, here — thinks like that [indicating pamphlet]. 
We send those out where we can, to everybody. That should be sold 
for 15 cents, if they have the money. Sometimes we cannot get it. 

Mr. Starnes. What is that, a number of speeches? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. By whom? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is our addresses, at Madison Square Garden. We 
have that in a pamphlet so everybody knows what we are talking 
about and what we stand for. You find everything in there. 

Mr. Starnes. What else do you send out? 

Mr. Kuhn. For instance, pamphlets. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have any of your pamphlets with you ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; I have some of them here. 

Mr. Starnes. Will you leave a copy of those for the committee ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, for everybody. There are a lot of those. 

Mr. Starnes. How many of those do you put out each year ? 

Air. Kuhn. They are different. For instance, we had about a hun- 
dred thousand of them so far, but I ordered a second printing already 
[indicating pamphlet]. 

Mr. Starnes. How much money have you received from voluntary 
sources, voluntary contributions ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I cannot give you exactly; it was about $18,000 in 18 
months. That was the statement I made; that is very rough. I do 
not ask every day the treasurer how much came in. That is his busi- 
ness. Right now it is my business, because he just died, you know. 



3780 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. How much is paid out each year ? 

Mr. Kuhn. We pay out as much as we can, as much as we have 
money left, after the routine work is done. As I told you before, it 
costs us about $800 a month to run the office. Then there comes some 
other expenses — traveling expenses, for instance. And the rest is used 
for all kinds of stuff. 

Mr. Starnes. How many of your national organizations are on a 
salary basis ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Two outside of me. 

Mr. Starnes. Two officers outside of you ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. That is the treasurer and the secretary ? 

Mr. Kuhn. The treasurer is not. The secretary and Mr. Kunze. 

Mr. Starnes. What is Mr. Kunze's official position ? He is minister 
of 

Mr. Kuhn. Public enlightenment. 

Mr. Starnes. Public enlightenment. You said there were approxi- 
mately a hundred units in this country? 

Mr. Kuhn. Approximately. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you got one here in Washington, in the District 
of Columbia? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. You do not have one here ? 

Mr .Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. You did have ? 

Mr. Kuhn. We did have ; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. You have one in Miami, Fla. d K 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Who is the leader there ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall the name. 

Mr. Starnes. You do not recall the name ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I promised you the list of these units. I have one in 
Alabama, too. 

Mr. Starnes. You have one in Alabama ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Since you have refreshed your recollection, can you 
tell me who it is in Alabama ? ] 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; I cannot. I will give you the list. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know any of your leaders in Alabama? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; I do, of course. Of course, I do. 

Mr. Starnes. Who is the leader in Alabama? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know offhand. 

Mr. Starnes. You do not know offhand ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not recollect. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you receive any contributions from Alabama? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Starnes. From whom, do you know? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, contributions from the local units there. 

Mr. Starnes. Those are the only contributions you receive from 
there? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; I think so. 

Mr. Starnes. Have any corporations in this country made any 
donations to the bund? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3781 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. None whatsoever? 

Mr. Kuhn. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Starnes. Have the officers of any of the corporations in this 
country furnished any money to the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Which corporations? 

Mr. Starnes. I mean any corporation. 

Mr. Kuhn. Business corporation? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. Kuhn. Our own corporation? 

Mr. Starnes. Any business corporation? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not our own. 

Mr. Starnes. Not your own; business corporations. 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. You have received absolutely nothing? 

Mr. Kuhn. Nothing. 

Mr. Starnes. You sign all checks of the bund, in paying expenses 
of the bund, do you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. As far as the headquarters are concerned ; yes. It used 
to be the treasurer and myself, but as he is dead it is me alone, until 
the new treasurer is elected. 

Mr. Starnes. Those are all the questions I have right now, Mr. 
Chairman. 

The Chairman. Are there any other questions? 

Mr. Mason. I would like to interject this thought, that if there is 
any necessity for a German-American Bund, to teach American chil- 
dren and Americans of German birth all the things that Germany 
stands for, the logical conclusion would be that the French descend- 
ants in this country and the English and the Norwegian and the 
Danish and the descendants of all the other nations should have 
similar bunds to do the same thing for their fatherlands. Then we 
would have no Nation whatever, because we would be just a varied 
group. That is the logical conclusion that you must come to in all 
of these things. 

Mr. Kuhn. We do not teach anything about Germany at all. We 
have to do enough here. We do not teach anything about Germany. 

Mr. Mason. German ideals and the German language and the 
German inheritance and German culture and German "all this"; we 
have the same inheritances from other nations, the French and the 
English and all the others that have contributed to American civili- 
zation. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is all we do. We try to contribute to it ; that is 
all ; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe, Mr. Kuhn, a few minutes ago, when I 
mentioned the name of Mr. Edward James Smythe and asked you 
what your relations had been with him you indicated that you had 
had none. 

Mr. Kuhn. None. 

Mr. Whitley. None whatever? 

Mr. Kuhn. None whatever. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever published any of his articles, any- 
thing of that kind? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not think so. 

94931 — 39— vol. 6 6 



3782 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. On March 30, 1937, the German-American Bund 
held a meeting in the New York Turin Hall and Edward James 
Smythe was one of the speakers. Were you present on that occasion ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not think so. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not think you were? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is mostly a local unit in New York. It is up 
to the local unit leader to get his speakers. If he got Smythe at 
that time, then it was certainly a mistake. That must be a long 
time ago. 

Mr. Whitley. Nineteen thirty-seven. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is all right. That is 2 years ago. 

Mr. Whitley. You did have friendly relations with him at that 
time ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I saw him, talked with him a few times. 

Mr. Whitley. About what? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, as a matter of fact, he talked to me about his 
Protestant organization. I have nothing to do with that, because 
I have to take care of my own organization, not anybody else's. 

Mr. Whitley. So far as you know, have any of the other high 
officials of the German-American Bund, the national organization, 
had any relations with him or his associates? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, he came up to the office a few times last year, 
but he does not come up any more, because he was absolutely for- 
bidden to come up. 

Mr. Whitley. He used to come up there? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; he came up there ; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Your officer, Mr. James Wheeler Hill, what is his 
official capacity? 

Mr. Kuhn. National secretary. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he use Mr. Smythe as one of his agents in sell- 
ing tickets for the Madison Square Garden rally? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know that. He had the whole ticket matter in 
his hands. I do not know who he engaged to help him sell tickets. 
That is a detail. I do not know that. 

Mr. Whitley. Getting back to the list of individuals and organi- 
zations with whom you have had associations or with whom you have 
cooperated, how about Mr. Roy Zachary, of the Silver Shirts? Have 
you ever had any dealings with him? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever published any of his articles? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. James True, have you ever met Mr. True? 

Mr. Kuhn. I never met him personally. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you had any correspondence with him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Very few. I get his records. I get his record. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you say that you have the name of the man 
who is the head of the bund in Birmingham, Ala.? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall the name. After all, there are hundreds 
of them. I do not like to give you a wrong name. I promised you 
the list. 

"Sir. Starnes. Just to refresh your recollection, do you recall who 
it is that is the head of your bund in Albuquerque? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. In New Mexico? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3783 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Or in Fort Worth, Tex.? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you recall who it is in San Francisco? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Who is it? 

Mr. Kuhn. Hein. 

Mr. Starnes. What is his first name? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think it is Gottfried. 

Mr. Whitley. G. K. Hein. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know the one in Denver, Colo.? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starves. You clo not know the one in Denver, Colo.? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. But you will furnish those for the record, for the 
use of the committee ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. You will give us the name of every local unit leader. 
Now, speaking of your membership, about 35 or 40 percent of your 
membership is in the metropolitan area of New York and the New 
England States, is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did not figure it out. 

Mr. Starnes. I believe you said you had about 15 to 18 local units 
in New York? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And some six or seven in New Jersey, and some seven 
or eight in New England. 

Then the next largest group that you have, as you mentioned them 
this morning, was nine in California, and about three or four more 
on the Pacific coast ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. So approximately 50 percent, if not more of your 
membership, are in those two areas? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is logical. Those are the biggest cities. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the source of that money that you took 
over as a contribution to Mr. Hitler? 

Mr. Kuiin. That was in 1936. 

Mr. Whitley. I want the source, where it came from; out of the 
treasury of the bund or from contributions? 

Mr. Kuhn. Voluntary contributions. 

Mr. Whitley. From bund members? 

Mr. Kuhn. From everybody. I do not know whether it is bund 
members only. 

Mr. Whitley. What was Mr. Hitler supposed to do with that 
contribution? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know what was supposed to be done 
with it? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you at the same time present him with a golden 
book? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. Everybody had the right to put his name in the 
book. 

Mr. Whitley. With the autographs of your own bund members? 



3784 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Everybody put his own name in his own writing. 

Mr. Whitley. Every one had his name in there? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starves. Who was present when you made that presentation 
of the check and the book to Mr. Hitler ? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was not a check. It was cash money. 

Mr. Starnes. It was in cash? 

Mr. Kuhn. I visited Mr. Dodd, the American Ambassador, to tell 
him that we were an American organization of German descent. I 
stated that I, nryself, had come to Germany for the first time in 12 
years and was there any objection, and he agreed that there was no 
objection at all. 

Mr. Starnes. Who arranged the conference — Ambassador Dodd? 

Mr, Kuhn. He did not arrange anything — I do not think so. 

Mr. Starnes. Who arranged the conference with Mr. Hitler for 
you? 

Mr. Kuhn. Practically nobody. I went there, that is all. 

Mr. Starnes. In other words, you just went up and met Mr. 
Hitler. 

Mr. Kuhn. Went in the office and asked the secretary, whoever it 
was, if I could see him. That is all. 

Mr. Starves. And that was all there was to it. 

Mr. Kuhn. I represented an American group, otherwise they would 
not even receive us. 

Mr. Starnes. You did not have to have any representations made 
for you by the American Ambassador or any officials of the German 
Government. All you did was to go to Mr. Hitler's office and tell the 
secretary who you were. 

Mr. Kuhn. I did not even mention my name, because my name 
did not mean anything. We were introduced to Mr. Hitler as an 
American group. 

Mr. Starnes. As an American group? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Who went with you? 

Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Markmann, Mr. Froboese, and Mr. Weiler. 

Mr. Starnes. Did Mr. Schwinn go? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. How long an audience did he grant you? 

Mr. Kuhn. About 10 minutes. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you see him again on the occasion of your visit 
there ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you parade there, in Berlin, as a part of the 
Olympic groups, or was there a special permit granted to you and 
your group to parade? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. We got a special permit to parade. Of course, 
there was some other groups along. 

Mr. Starnes. What were those groups? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall exactly, but we applied for permission 
to parade and they told us somebody else is coming along at the 
same time. 

Mr. Starnes. From what other country did the other group come? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. 

Mr. Starnes. Was it one of the South American countries? 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3785 



Mr. Kuiin. I do not know; I do not think so. I really cannot re- 
call that. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you compliment Mr. Hitler on the achievements 
of the German people under his leadership? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I did not. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you have ai^ correspondence or any connection 
whatsoever with any groups of German citizens in Brazil or the 
Argentine? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Were any of those groups there? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, if they were there, I did not see them. 

Mr. Starnes. By the way, the children that you have in your 
camps in the summertime for instruction and training, the poor chil- 
dren that you are helping out, do they wear a uniform of some type 
or character? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. What kind of a uniform is it? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, more like the Boy Scouts; short pants and a 
shirt. 

Mr. Starnes. How many boys do you give training to each sum- 
mer, to how many do you give the opportunity to get fresh air 
and sunshine? 

Mr. Kuhn. As many as we can get, as many as we have room for 
out there. 

Mr. Starnes. Well, how much room do you have out there? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, there is room provided in each camp — for in- 
stance, the one camp in New Jersey, the highest we can get out there 
is 350 to 400. 

Mr. Starnes. You have had that many out there? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not this year; no. We had once to full capacity. 

Mr. Starnes. What about the girls? Do you keep separate camps 
for the girls ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Separate camps; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And those girls wear some sort of uniform, some 
type of distinctive dress, do they not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. What sort of dress is that ? 

Mr. Kuhn. A white shirt and a blue skirt. They wear that on 
Sunday, otherwise they wear sport dresses. 

Mr. St.arnes. Your orderly division, they wear a distinctive uni- 
form, too, do they not? 

Mr. Kuhn. We have the same suits. 

Mr. Starnes. Your orderly division is composed of men, is it not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Men, yes. 

Mr. Starnes. They are the troop movement, the troops of the bund 
movement, are they not? 

Mr. Kuhn. What do you mean by troops? 

Mr. Starnes. I mean by that, they are the group that you give 
training to. 

Mr. Kuhn. We do not give any training. 

Mr. Starnes. No training at all? 

Mr. Kuhn. None at all. 

Mr. Starnes. No disciplinary training? 



3786 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; if you march somewhere, you have to march in 
a group, in order. 

Mr. Starnes. That is what I meant. Do they not preserve order? 
In other words, is not the purpose of that division to preserve order 
at meetings? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And help direct traffic? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. They perform the same functions that a civil police 
or members of a military police would perform on like occasions, do 
they not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. At a meeting; yes. 

The Chairman. It is a fact that you have available at these camps 
pamphlets and literature from Germany, do you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. You have never had any of that ? 

Do you not display those on a table? For instance, German toys 
and pamphlets and articles about Hitler, and so forth ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; only on very big days, very big celebrations. 
Some merchant comes out there, some businessman, and they have 
a table there. They ask us for permission to do that. 

The Chairman. It is not the bund, but some merchant that wants 
to sell these articles? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely. 

The Chairman. And you permit them to sell these various books 
on Hitler and other articles? 

Mr. Kuhn. On Hitler, no; on everything. 

The Chairman. Everything they want to sell. 

Mr. Starnes. Thev sell Mein Kampf there ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well- — 

Mr. Starnes. All the time, do they not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not all the time; sometimes. 

Mr. Starnes. Did I understand you to say that when you left Ger- 
many in 1923 you came to Mexico? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. Why did you leave Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. I became a refugee. 

Mr. Starnes. You were a refugee? 

Mr. Kuhn. Because the revolution was going on ; inflation was 
there. Every second man was out of work. I lost my job. I had a 
very good job with one of the greatest chemical concerns. We were 
thrown out by the French Army of Occupation. A colored regiment 
came in. A woman was not safe any more there. I had to take my 
wife away, because they attacked right and left. There was not any 
work in Germany at all. Every second one was out of work. And 
if a man had a job he got a salary he could not live on. I had to go 
somewhere. 

Mr. Starnes. Why did you go to Mexico? 

Mr. Kuiin. I was going to the United States originally, but I could 
not. We have to wait for about 2 years on account of the quota. You 
have to wait for your quota. The American consul in Munich, he 
told me that it is very much easier if you go to Mexico; you only 
have to wait a few months before you come in. I came to Mexico and 
I had to wait for quite a length of time. I started to apply right 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3787 

away after I got permission to enter. I had my own business and I 
could not let go my business. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you been back to Mexico? 

Mr. Kuhn. I never was back. 

Mr. Starnes. Never have been back? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. When did you leave Mexico? 

Mr. Kuhn. In 1928 or 1929 ; I don't remember exactly when I left. 
I never went back. 

Mr. Starnes. Why did you go to Mexico when you intended to 
come to America? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was my intention to enter the United States. 

Mr. Starnes. To enter the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. How many times have you been back to Germany 
since ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I was — the first time — back since I left in '23, was the 
occasion in 1936; the next time I was there in 1938. 

Mr. Starxes. And again the last year? 

Mr. Kuhn. Last year; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you see Hitler on the occasion of your last visit? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; it was absolutely private. If you would like to 
know, it was on the occasion of my parents' golden wedding. 

Mr. Starnes. Do the trade organizations have any connection at all 
with the German business leaders and businessmen? 

Mr. Kuhn. You mean over here; business? 

Mr. Starnes. Or both. 

Mr. Kuhn. We do not import anything; we are not importers at 
all. We do not carry on that business at all. 

Mr. Starxes. You do encourage the use of German-made goods? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. In other words you are the head of an economic 
organization ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Along economic lines ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Right. 

Mr. Starnes. Yet you would say your organization and the various 
organizations which you head up in this country 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). I don't hate anyone. 

Mr. Starnes (interposing). I said head up. 

Mr. Kuhn. The head of. 

Mr. Starnes. The head of, have a political purpose and have an 
economic purpose ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And you make no attempt whatsoever to dominate 
the trade-union movement or to control it ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Never. 

Mr. Starnes. You do pay special attention to the training of chil- 
dren and helping of children get instruction and education and 
enlightenment in your summer camps? 

Mr. Kuhn. We do not have any political training — if you mean 
enlightenment outside of training children in camps, why, that is a 
privilege 



3788 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes (interposing). I mean, you pay attention to instruct- 
ing them and in educating them? 

Mr. Kuhn. What do you mean? 

Mr. Starnes. What I want to know is what you mean by instruc- 
tion? 

Mr. Kuhn. What do you mean; you are asking the questions? 

Mr. Starnes. Do you not give instructions in textbooks, the German 
language, and the ideology of government. 

Mr. Kuhn. The only thing, if that is what you call education, the 
only thing we do is to teach them the German language, some folk 
songs, and a few stories. 

Mr. Starnes. The German folk songs? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And the German stories which you teach them deal 
with the German ideas and customs, do they not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, not necessarily, especially not now. If you will 
look at the folk songs you will find there are very few new songs in 
them. 

Mr. Starnes. What is your political philosophy? 

Mr. Kuhn. My political philosophy? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. Kuhn. American. 

Mr. Starnes. It is anticommunistic ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; it is. 

Mr. Starnes. And anti-Semitic? 

Mr. Kuhn. So far as 

Mr. Starnes (continuing). What does it embrace, from a political 
standpoint ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not get the question. 

Mr. Starnes. What I am trving to get at is this— 



Mr. Kuhn (interposing). What I stand for? 

Mr. Starnes. All of us are against communism, that is, if we are 
real American people. What I am try to get at is what the organiza- 
tion stands for, and what is your philosophy; your political phil- 
osophy, what you stand for? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well I believe we should fight for our country, like 
Germans always have. 

Mr. Starnes. What is your country? 

Mr. Kuhn. The United States, and the German people here have 
always proved that. Wasn't it the Germans who came down in the 
Civil War first and the members of this organization would again, 
when the Government calls, be the first to volunteer; it would be a 
volunteer organization, of course. 

Mr. Thomas. Right there may I ask a question ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Suppose this country, right now, should get into a 
war with Germany 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I get that question often. 

Mr. Thomas. This group would be the first to volunteer ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; and I have made that statement publicly many 
times, and I could prove it here in America. It might hurt me 

The Chairman. Why would it hurt you? 

Mr. Kuhn. To fi^ht against my own people? My father and 
mother live there, why wouldn't it hurt me? My father lives there. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3789 

If your father lived in Ireland, and you were Irish and had to fight, 
wouldn't it hurt you a little? But if I had to I would do it. 

Mr. Thomas. Right along that line, what I was trying to get is your 
probable estimate of about how many German-Americans there are in 
the United States. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. About how many are there, according to your estimate? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is very hard to figure; the figures go up very 
rapidly. 

Mr. Thomas. It is a very large number? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, very large. We believe — we call them of German 
descent, where both parents are German or where one is born in 
Germany. 

Mr. Thomas (interposing). Well, about how many? 

Mr. Kuhn. It figures about twenty million. 

Mr. Thomas. Twenty million? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. There are approximately twenty million German- 
Americans in the United States, and your organization has something 
less than twenty-five thousand? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. That is a very small part of them. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Those who are German-American. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Which probably means that a large number of the 
German-American citizens do not approve of the organization you 
represent. 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; it doesn't mean they do not approve it necessarily. 
We might criticize them, which I shouldn't, but we are not politically 
minded ; but it is a fact, in my estimation, that the German element in 
this country has the biggest percentage which does not go to the polls, 
for instance. 

Mr. Thomas. But the fact remains that only a very small percentage 
of the German-American citizens belong to your organization ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. An insignificant percentage. 

Mr. Mason. One-tenth of 1 percent. 

Mr. Kuhn. So it cannot be very dangerous. 

Mr. Thomas. The reason I bring that out is this : I agree with the 
other members of the committee that your organization is not one to 
be happy over and I think the German-American citizens in the 
United States are generally good citizens and as good citizens would 
not tolerate such an organization. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, if that is your opinion. This is mine. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Kuhn, you used imported movies at your summer 
camps? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. No ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you not have 

Mr. Kuhn. We had one movie recently from Germanj^ ; that is the 
only one. 

Mr. Starnes. That is the only one. 



3790 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. But you do disseminate and hand out a great deal of 
printed material, pamphlets, and books that are published in German, 
do you not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. Right there, do you know George Deibel? 

Mr. Kuhn. That would be in Los Angeles ? 

The Chairman. You know him very well? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Mr. Kuhn, is that his photograph [handing photo- 
graph to witness] ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

The Chairman. Standing back of the table with German literature 
on it, propaganda; is that correct? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, that must be an old picture ; I don't know. I was 
just recently down in Los Angeles, and I was out at the same celebra- 
tion in the park where you attended the celebration and I did not see 
any. I was down in Los Angeles and they had a table out there, like 
that you see here, but there wasn't any German propaganda. That 
must be an old picture. 

The Chairman. You have seen similar situations, have you not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Years ago ; yes. 

The Chairman. With members of the bund distributing litera- 
ture, heven't you? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. When they were handing out German propa- 
ganda? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not necessarily propaganda; books that you can buy 
in a book store. 

The Chairman. It was not just one book. 

Mr. Kuhn. Books, but not necessarily propaganda. 

The Chairman. You have members of your organization, have 
you not, handing out literature? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is for sale, what you can buy in a book store. 

Mr. Starnes. It is published in German ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not always published in German ; might be published 
in German. 

Mr. Starnes. Mein Kampf is published in the German language? 

Mr. Kuhn. There is an English translation published here. 

Mr. Starnes. I am talking about the German language. 

Mr. Kuhn. Likely; I suppose so; I don't know. 

Mr. Starnes. In 1937 the yearbook of the German-American 
Bund's accomplishments were published in the German language? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. What about the year before that, 1936 ? 

Mr. Kuhn. 1937 and 1936. 

Mr. Starnes. 1936 and 1937? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Were published in German? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr*. Starnes. Not published in the English language? 

Mr. Kuhn. Is there something wrong about that ? 

Mr. Starnes. It is an American organization and yet you felt it 
was necessary to publish its accomplishments, broadcast its accom- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 379 1 

plishments to the American people and to the world in the language 
other than that of your adopted country. 

Mr. Kuiin. Well the American people could — they could buy it; 
and if it is printed in German the Americans could read it. 

The Chairman. Suppose we let Mr. Whitley resume. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, have you ever had Mr. Deatherage as a 
speaker at the bund meetings? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not that I recall. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever invited him ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I do not know; I would not object. 

We might have had some of the local units invite him as a speaker. 

Mr. Whitley. You never met him? 

Mr. Kuhn. I never met him. 

Mr. Whitley. Would you object if a local organization had him 
as a speaker? 

Mr. Kuhn. No : I would not. 

Mr. Whitley. In the November 11, 1937, issue of the Weckruf, 
column 5, page 5, is an announcement of a bund meeting for Novem- 
ber 16 at theT Turnover Hall, New York, in which it is stated that 
George Deatherage has been invited to speak. You are not familiar 
with that? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; I am not. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever published any of Mr. Deatherage's 
material in the Weckruf? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, I think we did ; I am not sure. I think so. I do 
not recall. 

Mr. Whitley. But you would not object to publishing it? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I would not. 

Mr. Whitley. In the Weckruf, dated May 12, 1937, page 3, is con- 
tained an article which includes a reprint of literature which was 
sent in by George Deatherage, president of the American Nationalist 
Confederation sent to President Roosevelt and to Secretary Hull 
concerning world service. We will get into a discussion of world 
service later. 

You are not familiar with that statement? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; I am not. 

Mr. Whitley. But you would not object to it? Do you know 
Edmondson; do you know whether he was ever invited to speak to 
the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know if I did, but I know him personally. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever praised his work? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The literature of Edmondson? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You praised him and complimented him on the 
work he was performing? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know William Zachary; and do you know 
if Mr. Zachary was ever invited to address a local organization of 
the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Whitley. In the Weckruf, dated June 23, 1938, page 5, column 
4, note from Los Angeles Chapter reports that on June 8, 1938, 






3792 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Zachary addressed the Los Angeles bund, in a speech in which he 
said the Silver Shirts was similar to the bund. 

Do you recall that address ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I recall that there was one meeting in Los An- 
geles, and of the Silver Shirts, but it isn't any more. 

Mr. Whitley. You mean they do not meet out there any more? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That is since you and Mr. Pelley had disagreed? 

Mr. Kuhn. What? 

Mr. Whitley. Is that after you and Mr. Pelley had disagreed? 

Mr. Kuhn. We never disagreed ; we didn't disagree. As a matter 
of fact, I was out there in 1936. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever publish Mr. James True's material 
in the Weckruf ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think we did. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, you published it right often, 
haven't you? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you are in agreement with Mr. True's publi- 
cation ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, his publication is very good, sometimes. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever reprinted in your own official publi- 
cation, which circulates to the bund members, any other material or 
literature from any other organization in London, which organization 
publishes a magazine in London known as the Patriot ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Which publishes that magazine ? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know who publishes it. 

Mr. Whitley. Moseley. You do not know about that, 

In the Weckruf dated' May 26, 1938, is another article of Edmond- 
son. 

Does your organization ever cooperate with Italian Fascist groups 
or cooperate with them in your camps? 

Mr. Kuhn. There were a few at some of the meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. On some occasions you have had them at your 
camps ? 

Mr. Kuhn. There was one occasion when they were at camp, so 
far as a time when I was president. I do not know of any other 
occasion. 

Mr. Whitley. What Italian groups were they? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. There are about seven ; I do not know 
which one. 

Mr. Whitley. There are about seven different Italian groups? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, so far as I know. You would have to define what 
you mean by "Fascist," 

Mr. Whitley. Well, just Italians. 

Mr. Kuiin. Italians, yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Would you know the names if I read them to you? 

Mr. Kuhn. Probably I would ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever cooperate in a demonstration or meet- 
ing of any kind with an Italian group known as the Circolo Mor- 
ganHno? 

Mr. Kuhn. If you will give me the name of the president? 

Mr. Whitley. Joe Santo. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3793 

Mr. Kuhn. I think that is one. There are two different ones. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Kuhn. One was had some quite awhile ago. 

Mr. Whitley. Caridi? 

Mr. Kuhn. Is that the fellow who has a lame leg? I really don't 
recall his name. There was two organizations in the meeting. 

Mr. Whitley. You had a demonstration on June 18, 1937, at camp 
Nordland. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. At that time Caridi was present? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And a large group of his Italian Black Shirts were 
present ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And participated in that demonstration. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. At that time Santo and his Black Shirts participated 
in the demonstration? 

Mr. Kuhn. I can't tell you. There were two different ones. 

Mr. Whitley. That was the demonstration at Camp Siegfried. 

Mr. Kuhn. That was the fellow with the lame leg. 

Mr. Whitley. That was in July 1937. 

Mr. Kuhn. I think he was there ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Another demonstration at Camp Siegfried, August 
29, 1937. Do you recall a man by the name of Fenzio, of New York, 
a leader of the Italian organization 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). Well, there are a lot of Italian organiza- 
tions. 

Mr. Whitely. You do cooperate with them in many organization 
demonstrations ? 

Mr. Kuhn. We have a few times. 

Mr. Whitley. They visit you. Do you ever visit them? 

Mr. Kuhn. I visited them in one of their meetings at some hotel 
in New York. 

Mr. Starnes. They are all Fascist organizations, are they not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I do not know what you call a Fascist organiza- 
tion. You would have to explain to me what you mean by "Fascist." 

Mr. Starnes. They are all groups of Italians, organizations of 
Italians, are they not ? I mean groups of Italians in an organization 
somevdiat similar to the bund ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know the constitution of these organizations? 

Mr. Starnes. I did not mean their constitutions; I mean they are 
groups of Italian citizens, of Italian people ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I understand, of American citizens. 

Mr. Starnes. But they are of Italian descent. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, in view of the fact that you say that you are 
the head of a movement which professedly has a political ambition, I 
am wondering if your group would be predominantly in favor of a 
totally different type of government from what we have now? 

Mr. Kuhn. The same government, the same form which was fos- 
tered by Washington. 

Mr. Starnes. In other words, a constitutional government, de- 
mocracy ? 



3794 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; lived up to today. 

Mr. Starves. That is your political philosophy? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. But it would be a government controlled bj 
Aryans wouldn't it? 

Mr. Kuhn. By whom? 

The Chairman. By Aryans. 

Mr. Kuhn. By a majority. 

The Chairman. But by Aryans? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not necessarily ; no. 

The Chairman. Do you not say that in this pamphlet, "the Aryan- 
American nationalists" ? 

Mr. Kuhn. We believe that if 96 percent of the people — we believe 
in a majority rule, and we believe absolutely in a majority rule, and 
that all people have a right to decide 

The Chairman. But it would be a government administered by 
them, by the Aryan race ? 

Mr. Kuhn. By a majority. 

The Chairman. But by Christian, gentile rule; rule by Christians 
and gentiles? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; of course, must believe in Christianity. 

The Chairman. Ruled by Christians ? Is the German Government 
ruled by Christians and gentiles? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. It is? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Then it would be practically the same kind of 
government that the} r have in Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. At least, to that extent it would. 

Mr. Kuhn. No. I have told you, and I have often made the state- 
ment, that the organization in Germany would not be suited to the 
United States and that our organization has absolutely nothing to do 
with Germany. 

The Chairman. But you have just said that the Government in 
Germany was ruled by Christians and gentiles. You want them to 
rule? 

Mr. Kuhn. The majority rule. 

Mr. Starnes. Aryans, of course. 

Mr. Thomas. Now, if you take this same line of reasoning and 
carry out your political philosophies, the government would be in 
time different, would it not? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; the onlv difference would be you could have only 
4 percent — if there were 100 people and there are 96 of them Chris- 
tians, there should be 96 to 4 in the Government. 

Mr. Thomas. You would put it on a percentage basis? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. You do not see anything wrong about that? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Thomas. Now let me ask you if that is what they do in 
Germany 

Mr. Kuhn (interi^osing). I am not concerned with Germany; I 
am concerned with the American Government. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3795 

(Mr. Thomas. Well, I am not asking you about Germany; I am 
asking you what you think right over here. Now, following out 
that same line of thought you would give the Jewish people 4 per- 
il i cent of influence in the Government? 

Mr. Kuhx. Suppose that is right. 

Mr. Thomas. That is what you said. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is, if the people agree — a majority agree. 

Mr. Thomas. You would give the Jewish people 4 percent 
influence? 

The Chairman. Provided a majority agrees, you say? 

Mr. Kuhn. If the majority agrees; yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Yes. But you advocate that, do you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; that is my opinion — don't I have a right to my 
own opinion '. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, as head of the bund you are in favor of this, 
are you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. All right. Then what would prevent your organ- 
ization at a later date or some other organization advocating, we 
will sav. that the Catholic should have 36 percent? 

Mr. Kuhx. Well, that would be up to the Catholics, if a majority 
ruled, if a majority of the people 

Mr. Thomas. If the majority ruled the Jews should have only 
4 percent, and the majority might later on rule the Catholics, or 
some other organization rule that the Catholics, should have 36 per- 
cent, which would mean that you would get down later to a point 
where possibly you would not have any representation at all for 
some groups. 

Mr. Kuhn. No; you cannot compare, and we are not dealing with 
religions; we are dealing with majorities. Naturally, you are speak- 
ing of religions. The Jews are a race. 

Mr. Thomas. Isn't it religion when you refer to the Jews? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is a race. 

Mr. Thomas. But isn't it also a religion with the Jews? 

Mr. Kuhn. Possibly; yes. 

Mr. Thomas. And when you say that the Jews should only have 
a 4-percent interest, or representation in the Government 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). Well, it is our contention that the major- 
ity rule on that; and a majority, of course, would guarantee majority 
rule. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you not think that it would be absolutely contrary 
to the kind of government our forefathers in this country laid 
down ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; it would be just exactly what our forefathers laid 
down. 

Mr. Mason. Well, I want to instruct you on what Americanism is, 
if that is your understanding. I am afraid you missed the mark 
of what American democracy necessarily means. Of course, it goes 
along with majority rule, but there is also the fundamental principle 
in American democracies that the minorities are protected and given 
the same opportunities as the majority. 

Mr. Kuhx. Right; I agree with you 100 percent; and to that we 
pledge ourselves. 



3796 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Mason. Is there any pledge to that in this language here? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; and I would like to give you an illustration of 
where they are calling out the Army, as shown in this paper. 

Mr. Thomas. May I see that? 

Mr. Kuhn. Will you give it back to me? 

Mr. Thomas. Surely. 

Mr. Starnes. What do you mean by "we pledge"? 

Mr. Kuhn. The German-American Bund. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. 

Mr. Kuhn. You can see the situation here [indicating on paper J. 

The Chairman. If you gentlemen have finished, suppose we let 
Mr. Whitley continue. 

Mr. Whitley. Continuing with reference to the organizations with 
which you cooperate in meetings and individually and whose litera- 
ture you publish— I want to see what kind of company you keep, 
Mr. Kuhn. . . 

The Weckruf, the official publication of your organization, tor 
May 26, 1938, page 5, column 5, contains an item from the Los 
Angeles Bund paper concerning a meeting with 100 Italian Fascists, 
attended by a man by the name of Ferri, who spoke to the organiza- 
tions of the bund, and at the close of the meeting there were three 
cheers for Hitler and three for Mussolini. 

That comes from the item in the paper concerning that meeting. 
Do you know anything about that meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. I wasn't there. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall seeing the publication of such a meet- 
ing? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall that. 

Mr. Whitley. If you had seen it, would you have objected? 

Mr. Kuhn. I would have objected, of course ; you are darn right I 

would. 

Mr. Whitley. In your official organ, the Weckruf, under date of 
May 19, 1938, page 4, is printed an article in German, stating that 
General Moseley has advocated sterilizing all political refugees. Do 
you recall that article? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; I recall that. 

Mr. Whitley. Why was that printed in German and not in Eng- 
lish? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know any special reason why it was. If it was 
Moseley, it should have been printed in English. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you subscribe to the theory that refugees should 
be sterilized? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well no, I do not think such a thing I ever harbored 

yet. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you think that is right? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not think so. 

Mr. Starnes. Then you think it is wrong? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And you do not subscribe to it? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. I am glad to hear you say that, because you were a 
political refugee yourself. 

Mr. Kuhn. You are a Congressman, of course, and I have to admit 
you are a good one, but you made a wrong statement, but I did not 
say I was a political refugee ; I said I was a refugee. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3797 

Mr. Stabnes. A refugee? 

Mr. Kuhn. But not a political refugee. We did not have any- 
work there, or food. You would not know what that means but I 
still do. 

Mr. Thomas. Now, Mr. Kuhn, you referred to this statement [indi- 
cating paper] here two or three times today. Have you personally 
checked up to find out whether this is authentic? 

Mr. Kuhn. You are darn right I checked up ; you are darned right 
I did. I could give you a lot of evidence on that. 

Mr. Thomas. And you really believe that that picture there that 
shows on this was what actually took place? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Where is this cam]) No. 2? 

Mr. Kuhn. Camp No. 2 is located in the northern part of Penn- 
sylvania. 

Mr. Thomas. In what town? 

Mr. Kuhn. In the northern part. I don't know what town or what 
county it is. It is up there on that Highway 17. I was there myself. 
I cannot say that that picture is identical; I cannot say that. 

Mr. Thomas. You don't know whether it is true, then ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I saw something like that. 

Mr. Thomas. Yes; but you don't know that they have got boys up 
there in uniforms like this ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know — I know it, yes ; because I saw it. 

Mr. Thomas. You know thev have got them up there in uniforms 
like this? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. What are these — cutlasses that are on them there? 

Mr. Kuhn. Kind of knives, long ones, you know; brush knives, or 
something like that. 

Mr. Thomas. You have information in regard to this camp ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. All the information you have in regard to this camp, 
will you please turn over to this committee ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I would like to do it. 

The Chairman. Let him tell us now what the information is. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, tell us about this camp, if you have made an 
examination of it and are familiar with it? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did not make the examination. Of course, as a mere 
man. I could not make an examination there; but because of the 
visit 



Mr. Thomas. You have referred to this pamphlet two or three 
times. Suppose you tell us all about it. I think the committee would 
be interested in this. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well. I was up there and saw that. 

The Chairman. Saw what? 

Mr. Kuhn. Saw them exercising in uniforms similar to the uni- 
forms like you see in this picture. 
I The Chairman. Where is that camp? 
Mr. Kuhn. That is on Highway 17, located on Highway 17. 

The Chairman. Near what town? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know, but I can give you that information. 

94931— 39— vol. 6 7 



3798 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. They were forming this army up there; that is the 
sense of the pamphlet? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. That they were forming an army? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I saw them around in formation; I saw around 
100—80 to 100. 

The Chairman. Yon saw that yourself? 

Mr. Kuhn. I saw that myself. 

The Chairman. Yon saw the knives and the uniforms? 

Mr. Kuhn. I saw the knives and uniforms similar to that. I 
cannot say they had guns in their hands; I don't know if they were 
real guns; I was not that close; I don't know whether they were 
wooden guns; I could not make that statement, but it looked like 
a gun. 

Mr. Mason. Is it not true that these are brush knives and, ac- 
cording to that leaflet, they are training them for farming, settlement 
purposes, and so forth? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Mason. And it states there that in this hemisphere there 
shall be a colony formed whereby these people can go there and 
instruct their refugees in farm operations, and so forth? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Mason. That is the real substance of it ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you think it would be wise to turn that over 
to the committee? 

The Chairman. He says yes, he will do it. But what was your 
implication — that there was some sort of conspiracy about the thing ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I went up there on purpose. I got this pam- 
phlet 

The Chairman. What is there about it that is wrong? They were 
duly admitted to the country, were they not? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. 

The Chairman. What was there that was wrong? 

Mr. Kuhn. They had uniforms. 

The Chairman. Well, your bunch have uniforms, too. 

Mr. Kuhn. They have arms, and it is all right; if you think it 
is, it is entirely up to you. 

The Chairman. We are trying to find out from you. We do not 
know anything about it. We want to know what it is about. You 
said a while ago they were brush knives. 

Mr. Kuhn. I said they looked like it. There were about 80 to 100 
men I saw in there marching. 

Mr. Mason. If you will read that right there, you will get the 
substance of it. 

Mr. Thomas. He referred to it two or three times as if it was 
wrong. 

Mr. Kuhn. It is up to you to find out. 

The Chairman. This is what it says here: 

Service will include opening up ;i Large unoccupied territory to settlement and 
civilization, police and border patrol duty, farming, instructon, mad building. 
Volunteers who pass physical fitness requirements will receive free training in 
agriculture, engineering, transportation, aviation, seamanship, and military de- 
fence. In the new Jewish stale, each soldier-settler will be given a house and 4 
acres of land for life in accordance with the Nai Juda program. 



UN-A.MKKK JAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3799 

Do you know who wrote this program ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't. 

The Chairman.. You dort'1 know anything about the authenticity 
of the program? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't. 

The Chairman. You do not know whether it is true? 

Mr. Kuhn. I say it is true, because I saw it. 

The Chairman. All you saw was people out there in uniforms, 
with brush knives? 

Mr. Kuhn. In uniforms and brush knives, and exercising. 

Mr. Thomas. And you cannot tell us where the camp is located? 

Mr. Kuhn. I can; I can, exactly; but, offhand, no. 

Mr. Thomas. Will you supply that? 

Mr. Kuhn. I will give it to you. 

The Chairman. You give it to us and we will bring it out, the 
same as with your form of organization. 

Mr. Starnes. How many O. D. men do you have in your organiza- 
tion, Mr. Kuhn? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, about two or three thousand — 4,000 or 5,000. 

Mr. Starnes. Is the most of your organization composed of men, 
or women, or both? 

Mr. Kuhn. Both. 

Mr. Starnes. Do any children take any sort of obligation, or any- 
thing like that ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Xo; not children. 

Mr. Starnes. The adult members do, of course? 

Mr. Kuhn. What? 

Mr. Starnes. The adult members, that is, the grown-ups; they do? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. They take an obligation? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. What is the obligation they assume? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, you saw the application blank. That is all. 

Mr. Starnes. Is that all they take? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is all there is. 

Mr. Starnes. You do not have any initiation ceremony or any- 
thing like that following your check on them? 

Mr. Kuhn. Xo. 

Mr. Starnes. When you take their application blank, you do not 
immediately accept them to membership, do you? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. You make a check on their background, as to their 
character, and so forth? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Then, after that, what do you do? 

Mr. Kuhn. We card them and send them out to the local unit 
where they come from. 

Mr. Starnes. Do they go to the local unit, then, to some sort of 
initiation ceremony, fellowship meeting, and so forth? 

Mr. Kuhn. Then they go to the membership meeting. 

Mr. Starnes. Then they go to the membership meeting. What 
takes place at that membership meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. The local leader of the group calls them to the front 
and asks for new members that are trying to join the bund, and if 



3800 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

somebody don't object, somebody who knows about them, then he 
declares them as members. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have some sort of ceremony, or obligation 
there that they take? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, not at all. 

Mr. Starnes. No pledge is made? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Either written, or oral? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. You know, there is a court decision on that today, 
the Supreme Court of the State of New York. 

Mr. Starnes. How long do you have to be a member of the bund 
before you become an O. D. man? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, 4, 5, or 6 months. 

Mr. Starnes. About 6 months; is not that the usual training 
period, and then the}^ advance out of that class, if they are found 
worthy ? 

Mr. Kuhn. If they want to. It is absolutely voluntary. 

Mr. Starnes. I see. How are the leaders for these groups chosen? 

Mr. Kuhn. They are appointed. 

Mr. Starnes. Who appoints them? 

Mr. Kuhn. The local unit leader. 

Mr. Starnes. The local unit leader — on what authority. 

Mr. Kuhn. He appoints his officers. 

Mr. Starnes. On what authority? 

Mr. Kuhn. His authority as local unit leader. 

Mr. Starnes. Who gives that authority — the national convention, 
or do you give it to him? 

Mr. Kuhn. I give it to him. 

Mr. Starnes. You give it to him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Fifty percent; the other 50 percent, the members 
have to give it. 

Mr. Starnes. What are the requisites? 

Mr. Kuhn. What are what? 

Mr. Starnes. What are the essential elements necessary to qualify 
in order to be a leader of that O. D. division ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, he has to be a member in good standing. That 
is about all. 

Mr. Starnes. What else? 

Mr. Kuhn. Nothing else. 

Mr. Starnes. Who gives them their marching orders, training, etc. ? 

Mr. Kuhn. The master of training and marching orders gives them 
to the man at the head of the group. 

Mr. Starnes. And he, of course, has to have some military training 
or rudimentary knowledge of military training, before he can impart 
it to the members? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, he has to show them how to stand at attention, 
of course. 

Mr. Starnes. And that is not the only thing they have to do — 
stand at attention. Don't they have to march, in marching forma- 
tion ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And they have other formations? 

Mr. Kuhn. No other formations. 



he 



UN-AMBRIGAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3801 

Mr. Starnes. Who gives them instructions in that? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, there is one instruction out once and forever; 
there is a little hook out which gives all the instructions, and that must 
be final. 

Mr. Starnks. What is that — a kind of manual, something similar 
or comparable to the drill manual? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. It is just a little book which gives all the com- 
ma m!-. and everything in there. 

Mr. Staenes. I see. Well, this man. then, of necessity must have 
had some basic military training; is not that true? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; no. 

The Chairman. You do not have a good bit of the members, 
though, who were in the war? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, yes. 

The Chairman. Who would understand military training? 

Mr. Ktjhn. Oh, yes; sure. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, does the German-American Bund have 
book shops or book stores in various places ? 

Mr. Kuhn. They have only one book shop, and that is in 
Los Angeles. 

Mr. Whitley. That is called the Aryan ? 

Mr. Kuhn. The Aryan book store ; yes sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Does that book store handle literature put out by 
Pelley, Edmondson, and True? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. We handle different literature; I can- 
not tell you exactly the way it is handled. 

Mr. Whitley. But, as president of the bund, you would not ob- 
ject to them handling that, provided they do ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not so far as thej^ come from Bedford pupils, certainly 
not. 

Mr. Whitley. Would you object to Pelley ? s literature? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I would. 

Mr. Whitley. You would? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes: I would. 

Mr. Whitley. You have formed that opinion since you invited 
him to speak in Madison Square Garden with Father Coughlin, 
and he declined the invitation? 

Mr. Kuhn. No: from my own opinion of long-time standing. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you or any of your associates had dealings 
with Mr. Donald Shea, president or head of the National Gentile 
League and American Vigilantes? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Has he ever spoken to the headquarters, or any 
groups ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; he has. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, he spoke at Camp Nordland, 
N. J., on September 5, 1937, I believe \ 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I think that is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever, and on how many occasions have 
3 T ou invited Father Coughlin to address the bund, or contribute 
articles ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I, personally, only remember Madison Square Garden. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether any unit leaders have? 






3802 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever, in your official publication, Weck- 
ruf, published any articles with reference to Father Couglin? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Reprints of his articles? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever published any articles praising or 
defending him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. There is one here which I have a copy of now. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, in your publication of Jan- 
uary 26, 1939, you had two articles, page 1, column 1, and page 3, 
column 3, I believe, with reference to praising and defending Father 
Coughlin. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Mr. H. D. Kissinger, of Kansas City; 
have you ever reprinted any of his material ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Who? 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. H. D. Kissinger, of Kansas City. 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't recall; it might be. 

Mr. AVhitley. In Weckruf, dated February 9, 1939, page 4, col- 
umn 2, there is a little article by Mr. Kissinger, of Kansas City. 
Have you ever had any dealings, Mr. Kuhn. with Mr. Henry D. 
Allen, of Pasadena, Calif.? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. No dealings, as far as you know: at least the bund 
has never had any dealings with him? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I personally never have had. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know or have you had any dealings or rela- 
tions with Mr. Charles 13. Hudson, of Omaha, Nebr.? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; not personally. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with the publication, "America 
in Danger" '. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You are familiar with that? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you, or any of your subordinates ever had 
any dealings with the Gold Shirt organization? 

Air. Kuhn. In Mexico? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. It is possible that some of your district leaders 
might have had such dealings, without your knowledge? 

Mr. Kuhn. It must be absolutely without my knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you had any dealings with Mr. J. H. Peyton, 
of Beverly Hills, Calif., who puts out a publication known as "Amer- 
ican-Ranger" ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I have not. I know his publication. 

Mr. Whitley. You know his publication? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Does he send it to you ? 

.Mr. Kuhn. Yes; we get some of his articles. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you had any reprints in Weckruff from that 
publication? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know; I could not recall. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3803 

Mr. Whitley. Not from your persona] knowledge, but you might 
have? 

Air. KriiN. We might have; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you had any dealings with Mr. Kurt Mertig, 
of New York City? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. AVho is head of the Citizens' Protective League? 

Air. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know him? 

Air. Kuhn. I know him; yes. 

Air. Wiiitlky. What has been the nature of that relationship — 
just social ( 

Mr. Kuhn. You mean Mertig? 

Air. Whitley. Mertig; yes. 

Air. Kuhn. Nothing. 

Mr. Whitley. You know him? 

Mr. Kuhn. I know him; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What are your relations with Victor Cherep-Spiri- 
dovich, No. 9 Sheriff Street, New York City, who is connected with 
organizations known as "Intelligence"; "American Tribunal," and 
'Order of the Knights of Saint John of Jerusalem"? Are you 
acquainted with him, or with those groups? 

Air. Kuhn. No. 

Air. Whitley. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Leslie Fry of Glen- 
dale, Calif.? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. I have heard about her, but never met her. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you had any dealings with her, or with her 
organization "Militant Christian Patriots" or "Christian Free 
Press"? 

Mr. Kuhn. We did not, but I think the West coast did at that 
time. 

Mr. Whitley. You have had dealings out there? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think so. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether she attended any meetings 
out there at the bund headquarters in Los Angeles? 

Air. Kuhn. I don't know. 

Air. Whitley. Or ever held any convention out there? 

Air. Kuhn. A long time ago she was in New York, but she did 
not come and see me. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with the German Library of 
Information, at 17 Battery Place, New York? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know anything about it ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I know about it. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the nature of that organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. I could not tell you. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know? 

Mr. Kuhn. I never was down there. 

Mr. Whitley. Have vou got anvone connected with it? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. The German- American Vocational League, 21 East 
Seventv-fifth Street, New Y^ork City? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is Mertig, isn't it? 



3804 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Mertig is the Citizens' Protective League. Is this 
another organization of his? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think so. I think that is Sonnes. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you had any contacts with officials or mem- 
bers of the Ku Klux Klan? 

Mr. Kuhn. Never; no, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. None at all? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever published any of the material? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with Maj. Gen. George Van 
Horn Moseley? 

Mr. Kuhn. I met him once; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You met him once? Will you describe the cir- 
cumstances of that meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, this was out there at a private house. 

Mr. Whitley. Where? 

Mr. Kuhn. Jamaica. 

Mr. Whitley. Whose house was that? ^ 

Mr. Kuhn. It was one of a Mrs. — I think it was Mrs. Uzzell. 

Mr. Whiteley. Mrs. Rudyard Uzzell. What was the nature of the 
meeting there ? & 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, Mr. — General Moseley was speaking about the ! 
political situation in the United States. ' 00 ' 

Mr. Whitley. He was the principal speaker? ; 

Mr. Kuhn. He was the principal speaker. 

Mr. Whitley. How many people were present at that meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, it was in a private home. There were about 40. 

Mr. Whitley. About 40 people ? I 

Mr. Kuhn. Or probably 50. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you identify some of those present for us ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I could not. 

Mr. Whitley. Either as to their connections 

Mr. Kuhn. What? 






Mr. Whitley. Do you know what their connections were? Were 
they representing organizations? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not know any of them? 

Mr. Kuhn. Just from information. 

Mr. Whitley. How did you happen to go to that meeting? 

Mr. Kutin. Well, I was invited. 

Mr. Whiteley. By Airs. Uzzell? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with her? 
. Mr. Kuhn. I saw her twice. 

Mr. Wiittley. You saw her once or twice? How long have you 
known her? 

Mr. Kuhn. About a year or a your and a half. 

Mr. Whitley. And you knew her well enough so that she invited 
you to come out and hear General Moseley speak? 

Mr. Kutin. I suppose she knows me. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. And why did she think you would be inter- 
ested in being present at such a gathering? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know; you will have to ask Mrs. Uzzell. 



n 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3805 

Mr. "Whitley. Was there any discussion at that meeting with refer- 
ence to organizing a national group? 

Mr. Kni.N. No. 

Mr. Whitley. To absorb or take in, or coordinate all of these 
various groups? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Whitley. There was no discussion of that kind ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. 

The Chairman. Right there, let me ask: And you have never 
been present at any meeting where that was discussed, the question of 
a coalition ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. You have never been approached along that line? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was the first time I was out there and after I heard 
General Moselev talking, I went out West. 

The Chairman. I mean at any other meeting, at any time, have 
you ever been present where the question was discussed of having a 
coalition of all of these groups? 

Mr. Kuhn. Xo. 

The Chairman. Have you ever been approached along that line 

by anybody \ 

Mr. Kuhn. Xo. 

The Chairman. You have never participated in any conference 
looking to a coalition of all of these groups? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. You have never corresponded with anybody with 
reference to such a plan? 

Mr. Kuhn. Xo. 

The Chairman. And have never received any letters from anyone? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. Proposing that all of these organizations get to- 
gether in a confederation? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. And you never wrote anybody 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I think I did once. I was approached by some- 
body, a man by the name of Warren Lee. 

The Chairman. What organization was he in? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know which organization he had, but he ap- 
proached me and, as I understand, he was trying to make a meeting 
somewhere in the Middle West, and I went with him and that was 
about all. He was to let me know later on when that meeting should 
take place, but I never heard anything about it. 

The Chairman. That is the only incident in which you have been 
approached about getting all these groups together in one organiza- 
tion ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever, or any of your representatives, to 
your knowledge, ever attended any meetings at which such a propo- 
sition was discussed — any conventions or gatherings? 

Mr. Kuhn. Xo. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, during my conversation with you pre- 
viously, I believe you discussed at some length your plans with Mr. 
Xewton Jenkins, of Chicago, with reference to forming a third party 






3806 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

in the United States and taking in various groups and organizations 
who might be sympathetic to that party? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. That was 4 years ago. Newton Jenkins was 
trying or did register a new party, or a so-called surreptitious party. 
I still was in Detroit, so it must have been in 1935. I even helped to 
get it registered in Michigan. 

Mr. Whitley. But you did not discuss the proposition? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I helped him. 

Mr. Whitley. You helped him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I helped him. 

Mr. Whitley. You stated a- moment ago to the chairman that you 
had never had any discussions with anyone. 

Mr. Kuhn. I just talked about this, but Newton Jenkins is abso- 
lutely out. 

Mr. Whitley. He did not ask you if you were still considering it ; 
he asked you if you ever had any discussion or made any plans with 
anyone, with a view to a coalition of all of the groups. 

Mr. Kuhn. We had not any plans made; he was just running for a 
political position and he consulted me. It had nothing to do with 
uniting different organizations. We discussed if he run for a certain 
position, we, as the bund, would support him ; but he never tried to 
make plans to make an organization which takes everybody in. Of 
course, we believe in that. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Kuhn, what was the menace; what did you and 
he and the people consider the menace or the threat that made it 
necessary for you to get together in forming a party, or taking united 
action? 

Mr. Kuhn. Which people? 

Mr. Starnes. You and General Moseley and all these other people 
you have been talking about here, that he has been asking you ques- 
tions about — these various groups and societies ? What was the threat 
you saw or felt made it necessary to form this party to take in all 
these organizations? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, all these organizations have as their main pur- 
pose to fight off the Marxist movement and are united in that position, 
as I made in this public statement clear and, if you don't mind, I will 
give you that statement, too ; and as to this organization, so far as the 
German-American Bund is concerned, we never try or even think of it 
as reaching a hold on the United States. All we think of is the same 
as the Christian front or Christian movement is formed, the German- 
American Bund joins them, and out of the different American or- 
ganizations, we are always so handicapped, and if a man comes and 
leads the country, then we might follow him. 

Mr. Whitley. In the fight against Marxism? 

Mr. Kuhn. I would like to state very clear that was never talked 
about, so far as General Moseley was concerned. I saw him once and 
I heard him talk and I admired him, and I think he is a man of tre- 
mendous knowledge, and he is a man that is absolutely seeing the 
facts, and seeing the danger which the United States is in. But there 
was never talked about that he should be the leader of different or- 
ganizations. 

Mr. Whitley. I am not talking so much about leadership as I am 
the thing which caused you all to get together. 



party, 

I to 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3807 

Mr. Ki in. Let me explain with an example. For instance, right 
now there are different Christian fronts, yon know. The Christian 
front is splitting, and il has split five times now. One is the Cru- 
saders, one the Mobilizers, and then the American Scholars, and what- 
ever the name may be, and the idea is if one is to take a strong Ameri- 
can organization position, we of the German-American Bund would 
enter in that organization, and that would be the end of the German- 
American Bund as a whole organization, because we would look for it 
in other organization units. 

Mr. Whitley. And your purpose would be to fight Marxism? 
Mr. Kuhx. Marxism, and all that belongs to it. 
The Chairman. Right there, when you say "all that belongs to it,"' 
yon mean yon would fight any movement that originated with the 
teachings of Karl Marx, or that was founded upon those teachings? 
Mr. Kuhx. Yes. 

The Chairman. And that would include socialism. Mould it not? 
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. And that would include the socialistic government 
in Germany, would it not '. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes: or any other government; because it was really 
in the United State-. 

The Chairman. If von are going to fiirht everything that origi- 
nated from Karl Marx and are going to fight the socialistic move- 
ment just as well as the Communist movement, you would be just as 
much opposed to the German socialistic government as you would 
be to the Russian Communist government, would you not? 

Mr. Kuhx*. Yes ; the Communists and any other system 

The Chairman. But you said you would fight the Socialists just 
the same as the Communists, would you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. The Socialists, yes; as long as it was a Marxistic 
movement. 

The Chairman. And you recognize that socialism came from 
Marx ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; absolutely. 

The Chairman. And, as a matter of fact, the Communists and 
Socialists were all together for a long time, were they not, until they 
split into hostile camps? 
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; that is right. 

The Chairman. So that you would be in duty bound, under your 
statement just then, to oppose socialism? 
Mr. Kuhn. All of the Marxistic movements. 
The Chairman. Which includes socialism? 
Mr. Kuhn. Which includes socialism. 
The Chairman. And all of the socialistic movements? 
Mr. Kuhn. And all of the socialistic movements. 
The Chairman. Which would place you, absolutely of necessity, 
to oppose the present German scheme of government? 

Mr. Kuhn. In the first place, it has nothing to do with it; in the 
second place, if I understand right, we have not a communistic or 
socialistic government. I may be wrong; you know more about Ger- 
many than I profess to know, but we have a national socialistic 
government. 

The Chairman. But it is a socialistic movement? 
Mr. Kuhn. A national socialistic movement. 



3808 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. You make a difference between a national and an 
international socialistic movement? 

Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Dies, it has an entirely different philosophy. 

The Chairman. But both the national and the international social- 
istic movement originated from the one. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is entirely news to me. 

Mr. Starnes. One is a national movement; the other is an inter- 
national movement; that is what you are distinguishing between? Is 
that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. 

The Chairman. Then you do not classify the German and the Nazi 
movement as a socialistic movement? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. 

The Chairman. HaveVou had occasion to read the first platform of 
the first party in Germany, and what it proposed to do? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. You have read the platform upon which they went 
into power? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. And, from that platform, you say that is not a so- 
cialistic movement? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not a socialistic movement; absolutely not. It is a 
national socialistic movement. 

The Chairman. Well, a national socialistic movement? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. The only difference between a national and inter- 
national socialistic movement is the boundary line; one adheres 
strictly to the boundary line 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no. 

The Chairman. The other makes it an international movement; is 
not that right ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no; absolutely not. 

Mr. "Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, in" connection with your answer to the 
chairman a moment ago. that you had never discussed consolidating 
all of these movements into one big organization, did you or any of 
your representatives attend a convention in Kansas City in August 
1937 called the "American Christian Conference"? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; they was not there. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not have a representative there? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; I did not have a representative there. 

Mr. AViiitley. I see. 

The Chairman. If I may complete my thought : I notice here, in 
this pamphlet, and I presume you are responsible for this pamphlet, 
Which Way America?— vou are responsible for that; you wrote it? 

You say in this pamphlet, for instance, "Freedom for truth and 
decency on the radio, screen, and stage, and the press, pulpit, schools, 
and courts." That is almost verbatim the language of the Workers 
Party in Germany in their platform. You say you have read that 
platform ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Years ago— 15 or 20 years ago. 

The Chairman. Is not that what they emphasize, or is not that 
one of their obiectives, decency, freedom, and so forth? 

Mr. Kuhn. Do you not emphasize it? 

The Chairman. Is that the fact? Is that one of the things they 
emphasize — decency ? 






IN-AMERICAN PR01'A(iA.\l»A ACTIVITIES 3809 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know enough about the platform to say. 
We do. 

The Chairman. You say here further, the "maintenance of the 
Aryan Christian culture and political system built by the founding 
fathers." Was not Aryan culture one of the main props of the Nazi 
program i 

Mr. Kuhn. That may be (rue. 

The Chairman. You said you read the program. Do you know 
that is their language, "Aryan culture"? Do you not know that it 
was the program of Hitler, and that it is German propaganda? Is 
that not what Hitler said all the way through? 

Mr. Kuhn. What Mr. Hitler does, I do not know. 

The Chairman. You said you had read the platform ? 

Mr. Starnes. You are ready to join any movement or group in this 
country that is anti-Marxian ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. That will fight against communism? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You are just as willing to join any movement against 
nazism ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; because I am against nazism here. National 
socialism is something for Germany, but it would not fit here be- 
cause the conditions are entirely different, I have told you that over 
and over again. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you see anything different there in principle? 
Do you make any distinction or difference in principle between na- 
tional socialism in Germany and the type of government you would 
accord the people of this country through a third political party? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; absolutely, of course. 

Mr. Starnes. What is the difference? 

Air. Kuhn. As I said, the philosophy of national socialism is such 
that it is not possible to emphasize, or to bring in the United States, 
because we have entirely different problems to deal with from those in 
Germany or Kussia. 

Mr. Starnes. What about the threat of that philosophy ov move- 
ment ? 

Mr. Kuhn. There is not any philosophy about that. We do not 
have any political philosophy. We have parties, but do not have 
political philosophies. The Marxian idea is a philosophy. 

Mr. Starnes. Who is Walter Kappe? 

Mr. Kuhn. He was a man in our organization years ago. 

Mr Starnes. I believe you said a moment ago that you knew Fritz 
Gissibl ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. An active former member of the Friends of New 
Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Air. Starnes. They were both former members of the Teutonic 
Society ? 
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. That society was succeeded by the Friends of New 
Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was not succeeded by it. It was a new organization 
Mr Starnes. The Teutonic Society went out of existence, and the 
imends of .Sew Germany came into existence? 



' 



3810 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Any way you want it. 

Mr. Starnes. You said you were a member of the Friends of New 
Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And Walter Kappe was also, as well as Fritz Gissibl? 
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. There is no longer any group known as the Friends 
of New Germany? 
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You now have the German- American Bund? 
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. I noticed an article in your regular annual for 1937 
by Walter Kappe, called the Fighting German. This article is pub- 
lished in your magazine. 

Mr. Kuhn. You must realize 

Mr. Starnes (interposing). You are responsible for it? 
Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. Look and see who is the editor of it. 
Mr. Starnes. I do not know who the editor is. 
Mr. Kuhn. Look and see who is the editor. 

Mr. Starnes. It is a publication that is put out by your organiza- 
tion ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; it is put out by Walter Kappe, and I threw 
him out of our organization. 

Mr. Starnes. His statement is this — that the Teutonic Society was 
founded by him and Fritz Gissibl, and was later succeeded b} r the 
Friends of New Germany. 
Mr. Kuhn. You said that. I did not say that. 
Mr. Starnes. That is the statement in this publication. Is the 
statement true or untrue? 
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. 

Mr. Starnes. He is a member of your society, you say '. 
Mr. Kuhn. He was not a member of the German -American Bund. 
Mr. Starnes. The German-American Bund pul our two annuals, in 
1936 and 1937? 
Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Starnes. This is the 1937 annual. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is not published by the bund. That is published 
by Walter Kappe. That is his publication. • Mr, 

Mr. Starnes. It carries your picture? Mac 

Mr. Kuhn. I threw him out, I have told you. Mr." 

Mr. Starnes. Was he speaking the truth or no! when he said that Mr. 
the original German movement in this country, blown as the Teutonic 
Society, was founded by Fritz Gissibl. and that it then later grew into, 
or was translated into, the Friends of New Germany? 
Mr. Kuhn. I was not a member then. I do not know. 
Mr. Starnes. You were a member of the Friends of New Germany, 
were you not ? 
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know about the Teutonic Society. 
Mr. Starnes. You know that the Friends of New Germany went 
out of existence, and that the German-American Bund was organized? 
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. That was his own publication. 
Mr. Starnes. I notice the statement quoted from the Dutch Abeit, 
a Dutch labor paper, and the opening statement in (his article says 



Mr. 

Mr.: 
Mr, 
Mr. I 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 381 1 

that since L937 the American Germans are strongly influenced by the 
national socialistic order in the German Reich. 

Mr. Kuhn. Thai is not my idea. I am not responsible for that. 

Mr. Starnes. You are disclaiming any responsibility for this annual 
put out by the German-American Bund '. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Including the statement about Mr. Hitler's great 
accomplishments? 

The Chairman. Over and above that, you will admit that you have 
published articles praising the new Germany. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. YTou do not deny that. 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Praising what Hitler had done for Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. Y"es, sir. 

The Chairman. That was the objective of your articles? 

Mr. Kuhn. Y"es, sir. 

The Chairman. And they reflect your honest views? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. So that, as a matter of fact, you are a great admirer 
of Hitler and the new Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. I am an admirer of Hitler. 

The Chairman. You feel that he has done a great job? 

Mr. Kuhn. Y^es, sir. 

The Chairman. Y t ou have said that many times in the past ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And one purpose of the organization is to bring 
that viewpoint to the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; I did not say that. I said to enlighten the 
public. What you read in the paper is wrong. Y"ou read only one 
side of the story. 

The Chairman. That is, that our people may have the same view- 
point with reference to the German Government and Hitler that you 
have ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Y r es, sir. He has accomplished a great deal. When 
Mr. Baruch returned from Russia, he said that it was a very much 
better country to live in than the United States. 

Mr. Starnes. Who owns and operates the Deutscher Weckruf 
Beobachter ? 

Mr. Kuhn. The A. V. Publishing Corporation. 

Mr. Starnes. You are the head of the A. V. Publishing Co.? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You are responsible for it? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. This paper was published in 1937. 

Mr. Kuhn. I was not the head of it at that time. 

Mr. Thomas. You said that you threw Kappe out of your organi- 
zation. Why did you throw him out? 

Mr. Kuhn. I could not have thrown him out of the organization, 
because he was not a member. As soon as I was elected president 
of the A. Y. Publishing Co., I got rid of him. It was because I did 
not agree with him. In the first place, he was a German citizen; and 
in the second place, he did a lot of things that I did not agree with. 






3812 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. Because he did not agree with you, you threw him 
out of the organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. I thought he was preaching things that lie should not 
concern himself with. 

Mr. Thomas. What kind of things? 

Mr. Kuhn. Things that you read. He was a German citizen, and 
he was making political talks. He was not a citizen, and people 
other than citizens should not talk about politics. 

Mr. Thomas. You have made some statement that you claim was 
made by Mr. Baruch. I think you said something about his com- 
paring the United States with Russia. What was that statement? 

Mi-rKuHN. I had some clippings. I took it from papers. 

Mr. Thomas. What was it you saw? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was there in' the papers. I have the clippings. 

Mr. Thomas. What was the statement? 

Mr. Kuhn. He had had an interview with Lenin, and he came 
back praising it, and saying how wonderful the country was and 
what the Communists in Russia had accomplished. He said it is 
a real philosophy that has gone to the whole class. 

Mr. Thomas. You said something about his comparison of con- 
ditions there with those in the United States. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; he said that the conditions were better there 
than in the United States. 

Mr. Thomas. About what year did that article appear? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was when he came back from a trip in 1937. 

Mr. Thomas. In what paper did you see it? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was in all the New York papers. 

Mr. Thomas. And in what year did you say it was \ 

Mr. Kuhn. I think it was' in the beginning of 1938 or the fall 
of 1937. 

Mr. Whitley. Lenin died in 1924. 

Mr. Kuhn. I meant Stalin. I said Lenin, but I meant Stalin. 

Mr. Thomas. When you said Lenin you meant Stalin? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Will you recapitulate the four organizations that 
are allied with or affiliated with the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did not say anybody was allied with us. I did not 
say that we had any connection with anybody. 

Mr. Starnes. You said you were the head of some sort of economic 
organization in this country. 

Mr. Kuhn. Do you mean those organizations? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

The Chairman. You stated that you were the head of the German- 
American Business League? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; the German-American Bund, the German- 
American Business League, and the A. V. Publishing Co. Also the 
A. V. Development Corporation. 

Mr. Starnes. When was the German-American Bund organized? 

Mr. Kuhn. In March 1936. 

Mr. Starnes. What about the German-American Business League ? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was organized in the fall of 1936. 

Mr. Starnes. When was this development concern organized? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3813 

Mr. Kuhn. It was organized about G or 7 months ago. 

Mr. Starnes. When was the A. V. Publishing Co. organized? 

Mr. Kuiin. It was organized in the late summer of 1937. 

Mr. Starnes. You draw a salary from those four organizations? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. How many do you draw salaries from ? 

Mr. Ktjhn. From the A. V. Development Co, $100; my salary 
from the Bund of $100; and $100 from the Business League. 

Mr. Starnes. You do not draw a salary from the A. V. Publishing 
Co.? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Does it have any paid employees at all? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. How many? 

Mr. Kuhn. Four. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Chairman, I think that in view of the memory, 
or convenient memory, of the witness with reference to some details 
of these various organizations, due to lack of knowledge about cer- 
tain details, which, of course, is understandable, it will be essential 
to have some witnesses here who do know about certain details of 
financial transactions of the bund and these other organizations. I 
suggest that such witnesses be brought in, and that Mr. Kuhn give 
us or furnish to the investigators at the earliest possible moment the 
names of the various State unit leaders, with their addresses. 
Frankly, I think that with so many organizations, all of them seem- 
ing to have one central theme, they should be carefully checked. 
Therefore, I move that what I have suggested be done. 

The Chairman. If it is agreeable to the committee, Mr. Kuhn will 
be instructed to deliver to the counsel of the committee the names 
of the officers or individuals from whom we can get precise informa- 
tion, so we can have in the record definite and exact information 
with reference to all these matters. All of these things are matters 
that should be definitely cleared up by somebody in the organization. 
If it is agreeable to the committee, Mr. Kuhn is instructed to deliver 
to counsel the names and addresses of those parties who can furnish 
the information desired. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, it is very easy to get it. You only have to call 
for it at the F. B. I. They have every name and every fact. We 
were investigated by the G-men twice. You can get that from the 
Department of Justice. 

The Chairman. That was some time ago. 

Mr. Ktjhn. No, sir; lately. We had it about 2 weeks ago, and 
they are still investigating it. The F. B. I. has all the reports and 
records. They worked on us for a long time. You have only to call 
on them for what you want. 

Mr. Starnes. Have they been investigating your organization 
since this committee has undertaken the work? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; absolutely. You only have to go to the De- 
partment of Justice, and they will give you everything. About 3 
weeks ago the investigation was going on, and they were asking us 
the same questions that you are asking us here. They were asking 
questions about the Silver Shirts, and so forth. 



940.".!— 39— vol. 6- 



3814 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. You are not the only group we have been investigat- 
ing that they have been investigating. 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know about that, but the F. B. I. lias investi- 
gated us. 

Mr. Starves. I asked for certain information about the finances. 
Did they go into that? 

Mr. Kuhn. Everything, down to the penny. If you will write to 
the F. B. I., you would have everything you have asked. 

Mr. Thomas. I think Mr. Whitley should get in touch with the 
F. B. I. and get that information. 

Mr. Mason. While I was at lunch, I was informed that the F. B. I. 
had carried on this investigation, and that this information would 
be available if we called for it. 

The Chairman. This committee had an F. B. I. report before, but 
it was a very incomplete report. It did not furnish definite informa- 
tion about these matters. 

Mr. Whitley. Insofar as financial statements or records of fi- 
nancial transactions are concerned, unless the person who makes those 
records is available to testify and explain them, just the figures will 
not be revealing. 

The Chairman. Suppose counsel be directed to call on the F. B. I., 
and find out what they have that we want in connection with all 
these matters. 

Mr. Starnes. My suggestion is that we get those records, because 
the financial background here means the lifeblood of the organiza- 
tion. 

Mr. Whitley. Have your financial records been returned to vou? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Where are they? 

Mr. Kuhn. In the office of Mr. Dewey. 

Mr. Whitley. He had them. Does Mr. Hurlan have them? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. They have not been available for many months. 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you not say that the F. B. I. knew about every 
cent you took in, even within the last few weeks \ 

Mr. Kuhn. I said thai they have been investigating us. About 2 
weeks ago they were investigating us. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether the F. B. I. has been investi- 
gating other organizations, such as Communist organizations? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. The agent did not tell me that. I 
have my idea about it, because they asked me about organizations 
like the Silver Shirts. 

Mr. Thomas. Did they ask any questions about Communists? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not a question. 

The Chairman. Counsel will get such information as he can from 
the F. P>. I. Of course, after all, we are conducting our own in- 
vestigation. We will resume with the testimony of this witness 
tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. 

(Whereupon the committee adjourned until tomorrow. Thursday, 
August IT. 1939, at 10 a. m.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 






thursday. august 17. 1939 

House of Representatives, 

Special Committee to Investigate 

Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. C. 

The commit tee met at 10 a. m., in the caucus room, House Office 
Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding. 

Present : Mr. Ehea Whitley, counsel to committee. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order, please. 

Again I ask the spectators to observe absolute quiet during the 
progress of the hearing so we can hear the witness. 

Let us resume, gentlemen. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, during your examination yesterday you 
stated that you had not at any time had any discussion or conversa- 
tion with any head of these various organizations with reference to 
a consolidation of the organizations into one large organization. 
You later qualified that by explaining your conversation with Mr. 
Newton Jenkins, of Chicago, and the discussion with reference to 
formulation of a third party, which didn't materialize. You stated 
that the conference was held in Kansas City in 1937 or 1938 — August 
20, 1937, that you were not present at that conference, and that 
you did not have any representative present; is that correct? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. In your testimony taken in New York, Mr. Kuhn, 
you stated very definitely you did have a representative at that con- 
vention or conference in Kansas City. I will read from your testi- 
mony, Mr. Kuhn, taken on March 27, 1939, in New York, from page 
26. The question asked you is this : 

Is it correct about the statement as made in here on page 110 that the Ger- 
man-American Bund is seeking orders, or has sought to consolidate the Fascist 
element in America into one great movement to which the bund is to lead. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct that there was an idea to unite all of these — 
you call them Fascist, we call them patriotic organizations. Oh, from certain 
organizations came the idea to unite all these patriotic organizations in the 
united front. But it didn't come through. There was one meeting held for 
that reason in Kansas City, but I think it wasn't in the end of 1937 or the 
beginning of 1938 — I don't recall — anyway over a year ago, there was a meet- 
ing, and there were delegates of some 150 patriotic organizations to find out 
some way how to get closer together and the idea was to set up a steady 
delegation of all organizations to unite us but it didn't work out. It didn't 
come from the German-American Bund. We just sent a delegate there but 
we were not sponsors. 

In view of this testimony, Mr. Kuhn, why do you now say the 
German- American Bund did not have a representative at that con- 
vention in Kansas City \ 

3815 



" 



3816 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. I told you yesterday as now, I made the statement 
over and over again, there was a man by the name of Warren Lee; 
Warren Lee was supposed to arrange that meeting in Kansas City, 
and that meeting never took place. I stated that yesterday, the 
fact that there was a convention, that a man by the name of Warren 
Lee, who came into my office and approached me with the under- 
standing to have about 150 other organizations, and to Ms statement I 
will send delegates. I expected him to come back in a few days. 
He told me there would be a meeting held in Kansas City either at 
the end or some time before August 1936 — it might have been the 
beginning of 1936. And he was to let me know when exactly these 
meetings will take place. That conversation was taken, but as I 
told you yesterday I never heard from Warren Lee. And he men- 
tioned that some certain of these organizations will be well known — 
at the meeting, a well known, great American diplomat. He even 
mentioned some names, which I don't recall. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't remember the name of the person he 
mentioned ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I don"t remember the name; there was different 
names. 

Mr. Whitley. Didn't you tell me in New York that you did re- 
member but you preferred not to mention the name? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. And I did not press you at the time. I would like 
to know now who the name of that man was. 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't recall his name. There was quite a few names. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Was it General Moseley? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not General Moseley; no. 

Mr. Whitley. Was it George Deatherage? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. But, Mr. Kuhn, referring back again to your testi- 
mony of yesterday in respect to my question whether you ever had 
any discussion with any other groups or any individuals concerning 
consolidation, and you said no. 

Mr. Kuhn. I said with the exception of Warren Lee. 

Mr. Whitley. You sa ; d then you later admitted you had talked 
with Newton Jenkins about it. 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I didn't admit that; that is wrong; I didn't 
admit that. What I talked with Warren Lee was something about 
a third party; the third party which he formed, about forming a 
third party, in Michigan, the State of Michigan. 

Mr. Whitley. Jenkins was trying to form a third party? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was Warren Lee working with him, and both try- 
ing to form a third party, was that it? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; Warren Lee didn't do anything about forming a 
third party; he didn't tell me that. 

Mr. Whitley. But the fact remains, Mr. Kuhn, that you have con- 
sidered and discussed the possibility of organizing or consolidating 
all of these groups, which I call Fascists and you call patriotic, 
into one greai organization that the bund was to head? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; that is absolutely wrong. 

The Chairman. Now, read his testimony again. 

Mr. Whitley. I read his testimony before he gave his answer. 



Dg» 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3817 

The Chairman. We would like to know why 2 months ago he 
testified to one set of facts and here today, after a certain interval, 
he changed it. Read that part of the testimony again. 

Mr. Whitley. The question is: 

Is it correct about the statement as made in here on page 110 that the 
German-American Bund is seeking orders or has sought to consolidate the 
Fascist element in America into one great movement which the bund is to 
lead? 

And, the answer was: 

That is correct ; there was an idea to unite all of these — you call them 
Fascists; we call them patriotic organizations. Oh, from certain organizations 
came the idea to unite all these patriotic organizations in the United Front. 

The Chairman. You heard that? 

Mr. Kuhn. That was correct. 

The Chairman. The different organizations? 

Mr. Kuhn. As I told you, the statement was made 

The Chairman (interposing). You said in your testimony that 
there were certain organizations 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). Well, I said Warren Lee was supposed 
to organize the meeting. I don't know which he represented. 

The Chairman. All right, go along with the reading. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). 

But it didn't come through. There was one meeting held for that reason in 
Kansas City but I think it wasn't until the end of 1937 or the beginning of 
1938 — I don't recall — anyway over a year ago there was a meeting and there 
were delegates of some 150 patriotic organizations. 

The Chairman. Anyway there was a meeting. 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

The Chairman. And you now say that meeting never took place? 

Mr. Kuhn. That was another meeting, when that meeting was. 
That meeting took place a year ago; was told me — Warren Lee 
talked about a meeting that was to take place. 

The Chairman. Another meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. All right, but there never was a meeting that he 
approached me about; I told him I would go there or if I could 
not go I would send someone. 

The Chairman. Are you in favor of a meeting of this kind? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, yes ; I am. 

The Chairman. To consolidate them into one general organ- 
ization? 

Mr. Kuhn. And Ave work with the leaders as close as we can. 

The Chairman. But didn't you say in that statement that you 
wanted the bund to take the leadership? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. What was the statement in reference to that? 

Mr. Kuhn. That was wrong; I said that yesterday and I state 
it today. 

The Chairman. How does that read ? 

Mr. Whitley. I will read it again. The question was: 

Is it correct about the statement as made in here on page 110 that the Ger- 
man-American Bund is seeking orders or has sought to consolidate all of the 
Fascist element in America into one great movement which the bund is to 
lead? 



3818 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

And the answer was : 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. There was an idea to unite all of these. 

Mr. Kuhn. There was an idea but the bund wasn't to lead. 

The Chairman. You said that, did you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct, that they tried to get together into one 
organization, of course. 

The Chairman. The way you answer the question it refers to the 
bund and its leadership. 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. That is the way you answered the question. 

Mr. Kuhn. But I say that is right, that they were trying to unite ; 
not that the bund was to take the whole leadership. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, as a matter of fact, the meeting which 
you referred to here is the American Christian Conference which was 
held in Kansas City, August 20, 1937. at which time the American 
Nationalist Confederation was organized, and at which convention 
George Deatherage was elected president of the American Nationalist 
Confederation. 

Now, that is the Kansas City meeting you referred to in your 
testimony here at New York. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitney. That is the one? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Anyway you didn't come along, but didn't the Ger- 
man-American Bund send delegates there or say it would send dele- 
gates or that you would be there in person as a delegate I 

Mr. Kuhn. We had no delegate there; no. 

Mr. Whitley. You had no delegates? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; that is wrong. I told you, Mr. Warren Lee, if 
that meeting takes place, of course, if I can I would come and if not 
somebody else would be there. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Kuhn. If a meeting takes place and I can I will be there. 

Mr. Whitley. If the meeting took place. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is the correct idea. 

Mr. Whitley. You would send a delegate, and that meeting wasn't 
held. 

Mr. Kuhn. To send a delegate if the meeting took place. 

Mr. Whitley. Just a second. This meeting had already taken 
place; this meeting took place in August 1937. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. But your testimony was taken in March of this 
year. 

Mr. Kuhn. But it was in 1937 when I was approached, at the 
end of 1937. that Mr. Warren Lee called that there should be a second 
meeting and that second meeting never took place. 

Mr. Whitley. Mi". Kuhn, in spite of your statement of yesterday 
that you had never made any active effort or had any conversation 
with reference to setting up a national organization which would be 
composed of all of these groups, which you now qualify and say the 
meeting did not take place 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). I told you if the meeting took place. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). And a delegate would be sent there? 












IN -AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3819 

Mr. Kuhx. If that meeting takes place they will be there. 

Mi-. Whitley. What is the purpose of trying to unite all these 
groups into a powerful third party in which the bund was to play 
the lender ( 

Mr. Kuhn. I can't make a statement for each of the 100 organiza- 
tions, for what the purpose of the whole organization is. 

Mr. Whitley. Hut you have discussed the possibility of trying to 
organize at some place, and are still trying to do so? 

Mr. Kriix. Of course, we are trying to do so, but do not have any 
definite plans. I told you the idea was to have a big organization, not 
that the bund was necessary to head it. 

Mr. Whitley. But you wanted a large one? 

Mr. Kuhx. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. To take in all of these organizations? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. But it would be an organization which would sup- 
port and further the program and plans of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhx. To a certain extent, yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, with reference to the financial transac- 
tions of the bund and its income, and its membership, in your 
testimonv vesterdav you stated that the local unit leaders had the 
authority to graduate the monthly dues depending upon the financial 
condition of the various members; in other words, if a member was 
unemployed 

Mr. Kuhx (interposing). Correct. 

Mr. W t hitley (continuing). He doesn't pay any dues? 

Mr. Kuhn. As I said 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). Just a minute. I just want to get it 
clear ; I wanted to find out if that is correct. 

Mr. Kuhx. Yes; correct. 

Mr. Whitley. And for that reason you did not determine the exact 
membership from the amount of dues? 

Mr. Kuhx. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Can you state approximately what the percentage 
of those in the German-American Bund membership are on part-time 
employment or are unemployed ? 

Mr. Kuhx. No; I cannot any more. I used to be able to do that, 
but since the record was destroyed I can't do it. 

Mr. Whitley. But you do take into consideration the fact that 
there are certain times and have been probably during the last 3 or 4 
years always a certain number of bund members out of jobs ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Of course. 

Mr. Whitley. And probablv the average percentage; at least, a 
certain number out of work. Does the bund make any provision for 
taking care of those persons who are out of work and seeking work? 

Mr. Kuhn. We try to get some jobs. 

Mr. Whitley. Try to get jobs; and they do not have to pay dues? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. That is simply when they are out of work; do you 
have a relief fund? 

Mr. Kuhx. No ; we do not have a fund for relief. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the amount of the relief? 

Mr. Kuhx. Yes; and the idea is to give them relief 



3820 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. You do know that as American citizens they are 
entitled to relief? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know if the bund has taken up any collec- 
tions or made any contributions to take care of the unemployed mem- 
bers who are on relief and out of jobs? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. As I stated, the woman's auxiliary, which they 
help for charity. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; to help, not to pay salaries but to help with a 
family in real need ; to help tliem. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. But even though you have a great many 
members, or a considerable number of your members are constantly 
out of employment and on relief you still take up, from your mem- 
bers, a contribution which was turned over to Hitler to take care of 
his unemployed? 

Mr. Kuhn. We don't do that. 

Mr. Whitley. For his winter relief. 

Mr. Kuhn. We didn't do that. That was 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). Why didn't you turn that $3,000 over 
to your own unemployed, in your organization, so the Government 
would not have to take care of them, the American Government would 
not have to? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, wait — that was about 1936, and that was having 
nothing to do with the bund; I took up the collection, and if you 
take up a collection for a certain purpose it has to be used for that 
purpose. 

Mr. Whitley. You called for contributions, didn't you? People 
would not have sent in funds to take care of some purpose unless you 
had sent out a call. You sent the call. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you sent it out to the bund members? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether the bund members who were 
actually out of employment and on relief contributed to that fund? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know; perhaps, yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, some of the money which the 
United States Government was giving them for relief they used to 
contribute to a fund which was taken over and delivered to Hitler 
for his winter relief. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. That is absolutely voluntary. They did not 
have to erive if they did not want to. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that in keeping with the American ideals and 
principles of the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I think it is. if you can stand on the streets 
of New York and subways, and get a collection for the Loyalists in 
Spain, or even for the Chinese — there is nothing wrong about, I 
suppose. 

Mr. Whitley. That is not turned over to the head of the Govern- 
ment. 

Mr. Kuhn. Most of them 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). That is administered over there 
through a relief organization or an agency. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, they turn it over to a particular country. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3821 

Mr. Whitley. The fact remains, Mr. Kuhn, that you called upon 
the bund membership to make contributions to a fund and some of 
the contributions no doubt came from unemployed members. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; doubtless. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were on reliefs 

Mr. Kuhn. That contribution which they made was voluntary 

Mr. Whitley. That was money furnished them by the United 
States Government which they contributed, even in small 
amounts 

Mr. Ktjhn (interposing). I think your conclusion is wrong. 

Mr. Whitley. The principle is just the same. They contributed 
money which was being paid to them by the United States Govern- 
ment for relief, which fund you gave to Mr. Hitler. 

Mr. Kuhn. I beg your pardon. You made that statement. How 
are you going to prove that ? 

Mr. Thomas. I think the witness should be more responsive to 
the questions, and I think he should just answer questions and not 
be allowed to make speeches. 

The Chairman. The witness is instructed to be responsive and 
to answer questions that are addressed to him. 

Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Chairman, I would like to know if the questions 
can be put in a way they will be fair. I want fair questions. 

The Chairman. The counsel will attend to that. 

Mr. Whitley. How was that money taken over, Mr. Kuhn, in 
gold, silver, or currency? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was in paper. 

Mr. Whitley. In paper? 

Mr. Kuhn. Paper money. 

Mr. Whitley. Currency. Hundred-dollar or thousand-dollar bills? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was hundred-dollar bills. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Do you remember how the contributions were 
made ; whether there were a large number of contributors to that 
fund ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know ; a few thousand. 

Mr. Whitley. A few thousand? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. And that was delivered by you personally, 
in currency, to Mr. Hitler ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. That was after lie had reviewed the parade which the 
German-American Bund and the storm troops had put on in Berlin? 

Mr. Kuhn. Xot Berlin — I can't answer that question ; I can't an- 
swer that question. There were no storm troops. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, the O. D. troops? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. They had a parade and you were there 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). With the permission of the American 
Ambassador in Berlin. 

Mr. Whitley. With what? 

Mr. Kuhn. With the permission of the American Ambassador, Mr. 
Dodd. 

Mr. Whitley. And you delivered that money to Mr. Hitler, in 
person, to use for his winter relief ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 



3822 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. And that money came from your organization, and 
you have said you have alwaj^s had, during the last several years, 
many unemployed 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). That is not correct. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). And it came from your members. 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). That is not correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Where did it come from? 

Mr. Kuhn. From private individuals. 

Mr. Whitley. You mean private individuals in the organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is not correct. 

Mr. Whitley. You said how it happened; that you sent out the 
call. 

Mr. Kuhn. I did. 

Mr. Whitley. You did ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you sent it out to the members ; you sent it out 
to the bund's membership ; did you not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. All right. And it came in response to your call? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you had several thousand contributors? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what percentage of them were bund 
members ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You would assume a considerable number of them 
were ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You would? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you also did state that at that time there were 
unemployed members in the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Why didn't you take the $3,000 to take care of the 
unemployed in your own organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is my business. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. You preferred to take it over to help Mr. 
Hitler? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is your conclusion ; you make the statement ; how 
arc you going to prove it? 

Air. Thomas. I think the witness should be made to answer the 
questions. 

The Chairman. The witness has been warned two or three times 
to make his answers responsive. Just answer the questions. 

Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Chairman, I can't 

The Chairman (continuing). We are conducting an investigation. 
I do not want to have any personal argument with the witness, but 
answer the questions the counsel asks you. and if there is any ex- 
planation you would like to make, any pertinent explanation, address 
your request to the Chair. 

Mi-. Kuhn. But if counsel puts his questions with wrong conclu- 
sions I have to correct them. 

Mr. Whitley. I am asking you whether you made the statement 
and whether the statements are true. 



I'X-AMKKICAN IIMI'ACANDA ACTIVITIES 3823 

Mi'. Ki iin. Vou said it was the organisation. 

Mr. Whitley. Bui you said they were entitled to relied' as Ameri- 
can citizens. 

Mr. Kuiin. But hadn't contributed those funds. 

Mr. Whitley. I don't say they did, but I say this, that being Amer- 
ican citizens they were entitled to relief from this Government and 
no doubt at the same time you were calling for collections from 
your membership, and you took the money over to the German Gov- 
ernment for relief, to Mr. Hitler. It amounts to the same thing. Is 
that your idea that the German-American Bund's interests is for the 
host interest of this country? 

Mr. Kuhn. Is that a question or is that a speech? 

Mr. Whitley. That is a question; that is what you testified to yes- 
terday or, that the bund was an American political party, that it was 
concerned with the best interests of this United States. That is what 
you testified to, didn't you ? 

The Chairman. Answer the question. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I testified. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. And that is a statement I made, merely re- 
flecting your own statement. 

Mr. Kuhn. May I give an explanation? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes; if you want to. 

Mr. Kuhn. If you contribute to some fund, some certain thing, if 
a man contributes a fund for a certain purpose, that money has to 
be used for that purpose. So, I see that it goes to that purpose for 
which they wanted to give it. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Kuhn. And that is absolutely right, is it not? 

Mr. Whitley. That is all well. In other words, there was a cer- 
tain amount contributed from members and some who were not. 

Mr. Kuhn. As I say, a lot of it was contributed from sources, per- 
sons who were not members of the bund. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. Mr. Kuhn, you testified yesterday that your 
brother. Max Kuhn, was a judge on the supreme court in Berlin. 
How many judges sit on that court in Berlin? 

Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Chairman, may I 

The Chairman. Can you answer the question \ Just answer that 
question. 

Mr. Kuhn. But I would like to have ;i statement from the Chair. 

The Chairman. With reference to what? 

Mr. Kuhn. Do I have to answer for tilings which belong in Ger- 
many and not in the United States? 

The Chairman. You have to answer questions that pertain to this 
inquiry, the purpose of which is to ascertain what connection, if any, 
this organization has with the German Government. 

Mr. Kuhn. What does its American activities have to do with how 
many judges there are on the Berlin Supreme Court? 

Mr. Whitley. I want to know how important the position which 
your brother holds is in the German Government. 

Mr. Kuhn. What does that have to do with it? 

The Chairman. Can you answer the question? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I can. 



3824 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Then answer the question. 

Mr. Kuhn. Must I? 

The Chairman. Answer the question. 

Mr. Kuhn. To the best of my knowledge the supreme court has 
nine judges. 

Mr. Whiti ey. Nine judges? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the Supreme Court in Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Compares to our own Supreme Court in this 
country? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The highest court ? 

Mr. Kuhn. The highest court in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. And your brother is one of the nine judges? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How long has he occupied that position? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I do not know correctly. 

Mr. Whitley. Approximately ? I have an idea you know when he 
was appointed and probably would remember with a great deal of 
pride. 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. Was it before or since the advent of Hitler to 
power in Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. He was — of course, he was judge before; the high post 
was later on, I think. 

Mr. Whitley. He was not judge of the Supreme Court then? 

Mr. Kuhn. He was judge of the Appeals Division before that — 
the State supreme court. 

Mr. Whitley. That is a State court, and he was appointed to the 
Supreme Court after Mr. Hitler came to power? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did the fact he occupied that position have any- 
thing to do with your organization of the bund in this country, 
or the fact you are the head of that organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is what tickled us; that is what tickled us. 

The Chairman. Answer the question. It is not for you to make 
a conclusion. He has asked you a question and you can answer 
"yes" or "no." 

Mr. Kuhn. I ask you to get fair questions here. What lias any- 
thing in Germany to do with the United States? 

The Chairman. Answer the question, if you can; if you cannot, 
say "I don't know." 

Mr. Kuhn. I am in the Department of Justice, where they went 
through that. 

The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Whitley. 

Mi-. Whitley. There was no connection, you stated 

Mr. Kuhn. I made on; 1 statement now, and that is enough, so far 
as my brother is concerned. I don't get 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, this witness is unruly, offensive, and 
is making every attempt in the world to evade questions. I think 
lie ought to be made to answer the questions directly, or we should 
take proper action. 



1'X-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3825 

The Chairman. What is the question? Ask the question again. 

Mr. Whitley. The question is whether the influence which Mr. 
Kuhn's brother obviously has, as a high official, a member of the 
highest judicial body in Germany — whether that influence which he 
has had anything to do with Mr. Kuhn's selection as head of the 
German organization in this country. 

The Chairman. You can answer that question "yes" or "no." 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. Now proceed. 

Mr. Whitley. We had some testimony yesterday ? Mr. Kuhn, with 
reference to a meeting held out on Long Island, m March of this 
year, I believe it was, at the home of Mrs. Rudyard Uzzell. You 
testified you were present at that meeting. Were any of the other 
members of the bund present at the meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How many? 

Mr. Kuhn. Three. 

Mr. Whitley. And who were those — three in addition to yourself ; 
that was four, altogether — four representatives of the bund? Who 
were the others present? 

Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Kunze. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kunze — he is director of your youth movement 
and head of your bureau of enlightenment, I believe you call it? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. All right ; who were the others ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Elmer. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Elmer? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his first name? 

Mr. Kuhn. Gustav. 

Mr. Whitley. And what is his position in the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Director of organization. 

Mr. Whitley. Director of what ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Of organization. 

Mr. Whitley. And who was the fourth member present ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I am not absolutely sure, but I think it was James 
Wheeler Hill. 

Mr. Whitley. James Wheeler Hill, the secretary? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I take that back; it was Mr. Markmann. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Markmann is head of the local in New 7 York? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his position ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Eastern district leader. 

Mr. Whitley. He is a district leader ? You stated, I believe, there 
were approximately 40 people at the meeting and that you did not 
know who any of them were, with the exception of General Moseley, 
who spoke ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not go into any detail as to the nature of the 
meeting, or the nature of the speech which General Moseley made. 
Would you tell us what that was, for the record ? 

Mr. Kuhn. To the best of my recollection, he delivered a speech 
about a condition in the United States. 



3826 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 



Mr. Whitley. I see. Did he propose any remedies for that con- 
dition ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; he didn't. 

Mr. Whitley. No proposals or suggestions? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr Whitley. Is it true, and it has been so alleged, that that house, 
that night, was guarded by O. D. representatives of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. The house was not guarded. . 

Mr Whitley. It was not guarded bv any of your representatives < 

Mr.' Kuhn. If it was guarded, I did not see it; and it was not 
guarded by O. D. men at all. . m 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Who else spoke besides General Moseley? 

Mr. Kuhn. There spoke another gentleman which name I don't 

know. 

Mr. Whitley. What organization did he represent* 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, everybody there was introduced, 

were they not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. They stood up and were introduced: and. it they 
wanted to, said a few words ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no ; it wasn't, I said a few words. 

Mr. Whitley. You said a few words \ 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you make any statement, or just stand up and 

sit down ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I spoke a few words. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you, to the best of your ability, repeat the 
tenor of vour comments that evening? 

Mr. Kuhn. I was saying that I absolutely agreed 100 percent 
with the speech General Moseley gave. 
Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Kuhn. That "I had a delightful evening"— you know what 
you say ; "I am glad I came there," and that is so. 

Mr. Whitley. When you were invited to attend that gathering 
by Mrs. Uzzell, did you know who was going to be there? 
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You knew General Moseley was going to be there? 
Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; that is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know any of the other organizations that 
were to be represented ? 
Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You were not interested enough to find out who 
3^our company at that particular meeting would be? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. As long as General Moseley speaks, that is suf- 
ficient for me. 

Mr. Whitley. You took it for granted it would be all right? 
Mr. Kuhn. Yes; that it is all right. 

Mr. Whitley. And although everyone there was introduced, you 
do not remember anyone else who was present? 

Mr. Kuhn. There was no introduction at all but the speaker.^ 
Mr. Whitli v. As I recall, General Moseley testified — and this is 
purely from my recollection — that the various oues there were in- 
troduced. 






the 



r.v AMi;iur.\.\ propaganda activities 3827 

Mr. Kriix. To Mr. Moseley. 

Mr. Whttlet. I see. I understood they stood up and were intro- 
duced to the whole gathering. 

Mr. Kuiin. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Just as you were? 

Mr. Kuhx. After the speech, yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Everyone was? 

Mr. Krux. No. 

Mr. "Whitley. Just yourself? 

Mr. Kuhx. Myself, and Mr. Kunze, for instance. 

Mr. Whitley. Why at the whole gathering of 40 were you the 
only one publicly introduced to the whole gathering? 

Mr. Kuhx. I told you there was another couple of gentlemen 
introduced, which names I don't recollect. 

Mr. Whitley. They did not mean anything at all to you? 

Mr. Kuhx. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know who they were? 

Mr. Kuhx. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You stated yesterday, I believe, that the purpose 
of that meeting was not to get the heads of the various organizations 
together with a view to setting up an organization to consolidate all 
of them ? 

Mr. Kuhx. No; it was certainly not my idea, because afterward 
nothing was talked about. 

Mr. Whitley. There was no discussion along that line at all? 

Mr. Kuhx. Not after the speech. 

Mr. Whitley. How long did that meeting last? 

Mr. Kuhx. About 2y 2 or 3 hours. 

Air. Whitley. Two and a half or three hours. Did General Mose- 
ley talk the entire time? 

Mr. Kuhx. No. As I said, there was another gentleman talked. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know who he was? 

Mr. Kuhx. No; I don't. 

Mr. Whitley. If his name was called would you remember, or 
could you identify him? 

Mr. Kuhx. It might be. 

Mr. Whitley. It might be? 

Mr. Kuhx. If I saw him, I could identify him. 

Mr. Whitley. You have a very poor memory for names, Mr. 
Kuhn. 

Mr. Kuhx. Well, is that a question, or is that a speech? 

Air. Whitley. No; that is a comment. 

Air. Kuhx. That is a comment. 

Mr. W t hitley. Mr. Kuhn, what are the sources of the material 
which you use in your publications? 

Mr. Kuhx. I don't get that question. 

Mr. Whitley. From what sources do you get the material which 
is published in Weckruf ? 

Mr. Kuhx. All kinds of material. 

Mr. Whitley. All kinds of material ? 

Mr. Kuhx. All kinds. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you get any of it from German sources ? 

Mr. Kuhx. Yes. We get one what you call News — what is the 
name of it ; some kind of news distributed like we have here, too, you 
know. 



3828 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. You mean the World Service? 

Mr. Kuhn. World Service; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. That is not a very difficult name. Where is the 
headquarters of the World Service? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know where the headquarters are? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know where those releases or news that 
comes from that source — where it comes from or how you get it ? 

Mr. Kuhn. It comes from Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. It comes from, Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the nature of the organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think they have a representative here; if I am cor- 
rect, they have somebody here which distributes that. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the nature of that organization — the World 
Service; is it a private organization, or semiprivate? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think it is a private organization. 

Mr. Whitley. Or a government-owned or controlled organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think it is private. 

Mr. Whitley. You think it is entirely independent of the Xazi 
government ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know that. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know that ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you don't know whether it is an 
agency of the government or a private enterprise? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is a private enterprise, so far as I know it. 

Mr. Whttley. So far as you know it ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What other German sources do you utilize for ma- 
terial for your publication ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, once in a while a German newspaper — once in a 
while. 

Mr. Whitley. You reprint from German newspapers? 

Mr. Kuhn. Once in a great while. For instance, a speech delivered 
there, we reprint that. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you ever use the Fichte Bund ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You never use any of their material? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was used years ago, but it is not used any more 
now. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the organization with headquarters at Erfurt? 

Mr. Kuhn. Hamburg. 

Mr. Whitley. Hamburg — that is right. 

The Chairman. Mr. Whitley, I wonder if we could clarify one thing 
the witness said? Had you finished on that particular line? 

Mr. Whitley. Just one question more. The Weckruf, Mr. Kuhn, 
for January 2G, 1939, page 7, columns 4 and 5, contains an article, a 
lather lengthy article, with reference to the Fichte Bund, and Mr. 
Rudolph Kessemeier, who is the head of the Fichte Bund. Do you 
recall that article? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. AViiitley. You don't have any recollection of that? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 



: 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3829 

Mr. Whitley. But you are positive your publication does not use 
any Fichte Bund material? 

Mr. Kuiin. They should not: if they do, they should not. 

Mr. Whitley. Is the Fichte Bund, to the best of your knowledge, 
a private enterprise, or a government-controlled propaganda agency? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; I think it is private. 

Mr. Whitley. Private — entirely independent of the government ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Mr. Kuhn, I want you to explain to us what is the 
function and purpose of the O. D. — orderly division — of bund mem- 
bers? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, as I said before, that is an organization which 
keeps order at our meetings. 

The Chairman. Keeps order in the meetings? 

Mr. Kuhn. Keeps order in the meetings. 

The Chairman. What else? 

Mr. Kuhn. They do practical work. 

The Chairman. They do practical work in carrying out propa- 
ganda or enlightenment? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; but, for instance, setting up the stage and doing 
practical work. 

The Chairman. And what other function does it have ? 

Mr. Kuhn. As I said, to keep order. 

The Chairman. I say, outside of keeping order. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is all. 

The Chairman. Does it not have the function of being the more 
advanced body in the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. If you want to take that, yes. 

The Chairman. It is the more advanced group in the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. And it has had more training than the average 
member of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know what you call "training." 

The Chairman. I mean every man who is a member of the O. D. 
has to spend at least 6 months in the bund before he is selected for 
the O. D.? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

The Chairman. And he is selected on the basis of qualifications? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

The Chairman. If he is shown special aptitude or ability, he is 
promoted to the O. D. ; is that not true ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

The Chairman. And it is not a military organization ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. 

The Chairman. The primary purpose of it is to keep order and 
also your training is in order to develop bodily strength; is not that 
true? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. I mean, when you march, that is not for the pur- 
pose of building up a military organization, but for the purpose of 
giving the members exercise and bodily strength? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, we don't march; I mean we marched once. 

The Chairman. You march out in the camps ; we have photographs 
of the various O. D. divisions marching. 

94931 — 39— vol. 6 9 



3830 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. You call it columns, of course. 
The Chairman. You do march in column, don't you '. 
Mr. Kuhn. Sure. 

The Chairman. Would this be a correct description of the O. D. : 
Its training must be carried out not on military principles, but on 
the point of view of what is best for the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

The Chairman. To see that its members must be made fit of body, 
store must be set not on drill, but on training for sports. Would that 
be correct? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; they do some sporting. 

The Chairman. Now would this be a correct description of the 
O. D. : 

In order to prevent the orderly division from assuming any char- 
acter of secrecy, not only must the uniform be universally recognized, 
but also the road which the organization must take, so as to be of 
most use to the movement, must be clearly defined and universally 
known. Is that correct? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; that is not correct. 

The Chairman. It must not work by secret means? Is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct — not by secret means. 

The Chairman. Now would what I have read you be a fair descrip- 
tion of the O. D.? 

Mr. Kuhn. Part ways, with the exception where I answered no. 

The Chairman. With the exception of the part where it says in 
order to prevent the orderly division from assuming any character of 
secrecy, not only must the uniform be universally recognized, but 
also the road which the organization must take, so as to be of most 
use to the movement, must be clearly defined and universally known. 
That would not be correct, would it? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is not correct. 

The Chairman. But the part which says, "It must not work by 
secret means" would be correct? 

Mr. Kuhn. No secrecy at all, if I understand you right. 

The Chairman. And the first part I read you would be a correct 
description of the purpose and functions of the O. D. ? 

Mr. Kuhn. In general. 

The Chairman. For your information, I took that from Mein 
Kampf, which describes the purposes of the storm detachment. 

Mr. Kuhn. I knew you did. 

The Chairman. You know that ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Sure. 

The Chairman. So, as a matter of fact, you have patterned your 
organization after the storm detachment, have you not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I did not. 

The Chairman. I want to read you what Hitler said was the 
purpose of the storm detachment. Here is what he said 

ATr. Kuhn. No; read, please, what the exercises of the American 
A liny are. 

The Chairman. 1 am not talking about the American Army now. 
I lead from Mein Kampf. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is exactly it. 






Me 









UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3831 

The Chairman. And I substituted the words "orderly division" 
for "storm detachment," and you said that properly described the 
purpose of the O. D. 

Mr. Kuhn. On the two points. 

The Chairman. It says this — here is what I read describing the 
purpose of the O. D. : 

Its training must be carried out not on military principles, but on tbe point 
of view of wbat is best for the bund ; seeing that its members must be made fit 
of body, store must be set not on drill, but on training for sports. 

I read you that, and you said that described properly the O. D. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; that is right. 

The Chairman. Now, as a matter of fact, won't you be frank 
enough to admit to this committee that your O. D. was modeled after 
the storm detachment in Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; it was not. 

The Chairman. That is where you got the inspiration and the 
idea? 

I Mr. Kuhn. No ; it was not. 
The Chairman. But the first part of it is similar. 
Mr. Kuhn. It is not. 

The Chairman. You have no military training, but they march 
in formation; you have a descriptive uniform? 
Mr. Kuhn. We have a uniform; yes. 

The Chairman. And you wear the Nazi symbol on the uniform ? 
Mr. Kuhn. No; we don't. 

The Chairman. Do you carry it anywhere on the person; is the 
Nazi symbol anywhere on the person of the O. D.? 
Mr. Kuhn. No, not the Nazi symbol. 
The Chairman. What symbol? 

iMr. Kuhn. Our own. 
The Chairman. What is yours? 
Mr. Kuhn. It is the sun with the rays of the sun. 
Mr. Starnes. In other words, it is the flaming swastika? 

IMr. Kuhn. If you want to call it that way. 
The Chairman. It is the swastika? 
Mr. Kuhn. It is the swastika ; yes. 

The Chairman. And, therefore, for every practical purpose, where 
else could you have gotten the idea of the orderly division, except 
from the storm detachment in Germany ? Where else could you have 
gotten it? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, from my own experience. 

The Chairman. From your own experience? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. You see, our meetings are disturbed by Com- 
munist supporters, and so on, and you have to protect your members. 

The Chairman. That is exactly what Hitler found in the be- 
ginning of the Nazi Party in Germany, was it not, at the earlier 
meetings? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, following up that question on the O. D: The 
O. D. is the soldier in your movement, is he not? 

Mr. Kuhn. He is not a soldier. 

Mr. Starnes. He is not a soldier; well, he has to prepare him- 
self spiritually and physicallv, does he not, for his duties as a 
member of the O. D. I 









3832 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Voluntarily, yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And, like the whole movement, he stands for the 
leadership principal; is that right? 
Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Starnes. And his honor demands to prepare for a position 
of leader ; is that right ? 

Mr. Kuhn. To a certain extent ; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. To be a leader demands, above all, great knowledge 
in racial and cultural regards; is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. A leader of every sort. 

Mr. Starnes. He should also have firmness of character, manly 
courage, sincerest and truest devotion of his whole self to the move- 
ment. Is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. To the movement, and the movement is in order fol- 
lowing the constitution, because he has to follow the constitution 
first. 

Mr. Starnes. And the "movement" here, of course, means the Ger- 
man-American Bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. The constitution of the bund, of course. 

Mr. Starnes. The Fuehrer does not take, but gives. Is that cor- 
rect ? 

Mr. Kuhn. He takes, but gives ? 

Mr. Starnes. No; he does not take, but gives. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I don't know exactly what you mean by that. 

Mr. Starnes. To acquire the capacity for leadership, it is neces- 
sary to have above all self-discipline, willingness to make sacrifices 
and the spirit of genuine comradship. Is that a correct description 
of the principles of the O. D.? 

Mr. Kuhn. Every man in a position should have that. 

The Chairman. But that was not his question. His question to 
you was whether or not that was true with reference to the O. D. 

Mr. Kuhn. No; every man should have that. 

The Chairman. That is not responsive to the question. Ask the 
question again. The question is, Is that true with reference to the 
O. D? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, of course, but every man; I go further than that. 

Mr. Starnes. An O. D. man who cannot subordinate himself, who 
fears responsibility, cannot bear a harsh word from his superior or 
comrade, and tries to evade his duties, has no right to wear the 
honor garb of your movement. Is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Starnes. And the honor garb is, of course, the distinctive uni- 
form which they wear? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Starnes. O. D. people are always open and free with one 
another and live according to the word of the Fuehrer. Is that 



right? 

Mr. Kuhn. Ri<rht. 



I. 

Mr. Ki 
I.St 

Mr. Starnes. Common-weal before self -weal; is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. Right. 

Mr. Starnes. Those, then, are the real fundamental principles of 
(he O. D., are they not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. k a 

Htl 



Mr. 
(1 
idges i 

fell 
Mr.] 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3333 



k it; 






Mr. Starnes. You stated on yesterday that at your meetings — and 
I am speaking now of the meetings of the bund — you used the 
American flag .' 

Mr. Kuiin. Correct. 

Mr. Starnes. I want you to look at this photograph here, which is 
a photograph of Fritz Kuhn, fuehrer of the United States, supposed 
to have been taken at Camp Siegfried, Long Island, N. Y. Look 
at that and see if that is your photograph. 

Mr. Kuhn (after examination). That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. That is correct? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. At that time, you were decorating the swastika? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. It was 1936. 

Mr. Starnes. 1936? That is the flag of the German Government, 
is it not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Air. Starnes. Are there any American flags there in that photo- 
graph ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not in the photograph. 

Mr. Starnes. There are several more swastikas there, are there 
not? 

Mr. Kuhn. There is one more ; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. One more. Now, here is what purports to be a 
picture of yourself addressing a Fourth of July audience of 10,000 
at Camp Siegfried, Long Island. See if that is your picture there. 

Mr. Kuhn (after examination). Yes; it is. 

Mr. Starnes What is that symbol or flag that you see there? 

Air. Kuhn. That is the German flag. 

Mr. Starnes. The German flag. Where is the American flag? 
There is none evident. 

Air. Kuhn. Oh, you did not take it ; you did not take it that way. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, I ask you to examine this photostatic copy of 
what purports to be a receipt signed by you, No. 915, which acknowl- 
edges receipt of a donation of the sum of $1. Look at that and see 
if that is a correct copy of your signature. 

Mr. Kuhn (after examination). That is a correct copy; yes. 

Air. Starnes. That is a correct copy ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Starnes. What is this emblem down in the lower left-hand 
corner there ? Is that an emblem of the German Bund ? 

Air. Kuhn. An emblem of the German Bund ; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. That is what you call the sunlight flaming from the 
swastika ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. Or the flaming swastika ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Is that a receipt for membership, or a voluntary con- 
tribution ? 

Mr. Kuhn. The receipt says "voluntary contribution." 

Mr. Starnes. From whom do you receive those contributions, Mr. 
¥ e Kuhn?^ 

Mr. Kuhn. From anybody. 

Mr. Starnes. From anybody? 

Mr. Kuhn. Whoever wants to give them. 



1 maul; 
e move- 

der 
titu 

lie Ger- 
hat cor 

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s npces- 
acTifices 

cription 



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■ 0.D 

Ask 



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-ith om 






3834 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. I see. And you say the largest single contribution 
you have ever received is $500? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct — once ; one single one, I said. 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. Now, since you have had an opportunity to 
refresh your recollection about it, do you recall who gave you that 
$500? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; I cannot recollect that. 

Mr. Starnes. You cannot recollect that? 

Mr. Kuhn. I could if I had time to look at our books. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, that is a correct copy of receipt No. 915 which 
you gave — the photostatic copy there ? 

Mr. Kuhn. It says "915"; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. That is correct, When was the German-American 
Bund organized? 

Mr. Kutin. As I said, in March 1936. 

Mr. Starnes. March 1936. This purports to have been signed, a 
receipt signed April 20, 1937. So far as you know, that is the correct 
date, of course? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. It states in here, "German-American Bund. I here- 
with acknowledge donation of the sum of $1 for the fifth year of 
our battle." Now, what is "our battle" ? 

Mr. Kuhn. The fight of the German-American elements in this 
country. 

Mr. Starnes. That had been going on, then, for 5 years previous 
or prior to the time you gave this receipt ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Who started that "battle" in 1932? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know who started it; I don't know. 

Mr. Staknes. Were you a member of the Friends of New Ger- 
many in 1932? 

Mr. Kuhn. There was no such a thing in 1932 — not to my knowl- 
edge. 

Mr. Starnes. What organization of the German-American element 
was there in being in the United States in 1932? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, there were different ones ; dozens of them. 

Mr. Starnes. Name them. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I cannot name all of them. 

Mr. Starnes. You cannot name all ; name some of them. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, there was a lot of German societies. 

Mr. Starnes. Were you a member of any of them ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. None at all ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not at all. 

Mr. Starnes. Then you are unable to explain the significance of 
that receipt of $1 "for 'the fifth year of our battle"? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Starnes. You don't know what had been going on for 5 years 
previous to that? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I know. 

Mr. Starnes. Well, what was it? 

Mr. Kuhn\ Well, the same fight. The German element was perse- 
cuted all the time. 

Mr. Starnes. Who persecuted them? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3835 

Mr. Khun. Well, newspapers — some certain classes. 

Mr. Starxes. You mean American citizens were persecuting them? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; sure. 

Mr. Starnes. Can you name some American citizens 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I can't. 

Mr. Starnes (continuing). Or groups? Do you mean to say cer- 
tain groups in this country were persecuting the German people? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Who were they? 

Mr. Kuhn. For instance, the communistic movement? 

Mr. Starnes. The communistic movement? 

Mr. Kuhn. The Non-Sectarian League, for instance. 

Mr. Starnes. The Non-Sectarian League? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Name some more. 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know the name of any more. There was in 
each town the League for Democracy. 

Mr. Starxes. Will you tell us who some of the members were in 
the movement to unite the German-American element in this 
country ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, there were a bunch of them in each town. 

Mr. Starnes. Fritz Gissibl? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Peter Gissibl? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Walter Kappe? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Who was this Walter Kappe? 

Mr. Kuhn. Who was he? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. Kuhn. Walter Kappe was Walter Kappe ; I don't know who. 

Mr. Starnes. He was a German, was he not — a German citizen? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And at one time was head of the "enlightenment" 
division of the German- American Bund, was he not? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; he wasn't. 

Mr. Starnes. "What is this expression; what is this word right 
here; what does this word mean — "bundespressantwert" ? 

Mr. Kuhx. That means "bunde press antwert." 

Mr. Starnes. What is that? 

Mr. Kuhx. Editor of the newspaper for the bund organ. 

Mr. Starnes. That is right. He was the editorial mouthpiece of 
the German-American Bund ; is that right ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; for the time being ; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And he was in 1937, was he not '. 

Mr. Kuhn. In the beginning of 1937 ; yes. 

Mr. Staenes. And he was all through 1936? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. He was never an American citizen, was he? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not to nxy knowledge; no. 

Mr. Starnes. And he is now in Germany ; that is your last knowl- 
edge of him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 



3836 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. Does he hold any position in the German- American 
Bund at the present time? 

Mr. Kuhn. Who? 

Mr. Starnes. This Walter Kappe. 

Mr. Kuhn. He is not here any more. 

Mr. Starnes. He is not here any more ? 

Mr. Kuhn. You know 

Mr. Starnes. When did he go to Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think around 1937. 

Mr. Starnes. In 1937. Was he in the group that went with you 
in 1936 to Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; he wasn't. 

Mr. Starnes. When was it you stated that all citizens of German 
extraction — I will put it this way: I think you stated to this com- 
mittee yesterday that you went to the German consul in 1935 in an 
effort to get German citizens out of this movement. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. In 1932, you say, you had a man up there as the editor 
of your publication, as a part of the national organization, handling 
your newspaper work for you, or your press relations work? 

Mr. Kuhn. As I told you yesterday, I had to take him out. I was 
not empowered to do anything with the newspaper then. I was not 
the president then. I became president in 1937. 

Mr. Starnes. I thought you said you organized it in 1936. 

Mr. Kuhn. That was the bund, not the paper. The newspaper is a 
business corporation. 

Mr. Starnes. You have a bund unit at Los Angeles, have you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And you have one at Oakland, Calif. ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. At St. Louis, Mo. ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, the leader of that local unit was Otto Weide- 
mann ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Who is that? 

Mr. Kuhn. Heinie. 

Mr. Starnes. He set up the department or division, or O. D. divi- 
sion, there? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Who is he, or who did that? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. 

Mr. Starnes. He was leader of the O. D. division, was he not? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think not. 

Mr. Starnes. In 1935 ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. In 1936? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. In 1937? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. But he was at one time ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. 

Mr. Starnes. What about Anton Kessler? Do you know him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3837 

Mr. Starnes. He is leader of the St, Louis post unit ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. He was leader in 1938 ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. What was he? 

Mr. Kuhn. In 1936, we took back into the convention in Buffalo- 



Mr. Starnes (interposing). Who called that convention to Buffalo? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did. 

Mr. Starnes. To whom did you issue the call ? 

Mr. Kuhn. To the local unit leaders. 

Mr. Starnes. Of what? 

Mr. Kuhn. Of the German -American Bund, or the Friends of New 
Germany. 

Mr. Starnes. At that time? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. The Friends of New Germany had an 0. D. divi- 
sion, did they? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Anton Kessler is not an American citizen, is he? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. 

Mr. Starnes. You did issue the call for the national convention in 
1936, which was the first national convention, or the organization 
convention for the bund? You issued that call to German citizens 
to operate under that form of organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; I did not. 

Mr. Starnes. Walter Kappe was there? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And Anton Kessler was there? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Was Otto Weidemann there? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir ; not that I know of. 

Mr. Starnes. As to those who are not American citizens, Kappe 
has never become one? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. Is Markmann an American citizen? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And Schwinn, Froboese, and Firschkorn? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. When did you go to Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. In July. 

Mr. /vtarnes. You went on the New Yorker, did you not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Who went with you? 

Mr. Kuhn. About 425. 

Mr. Starnes. Were all of them members of the German- American 
Bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Most of them. 

Mr. St.arnes. You went on the steamer New Yorker f 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You left New York City and went direct to 
German v '. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir ; that is right, 

Mr. Starnes. This was in July, after you organized the bund in 
March in Buffalo? 



3838 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. The idea was to take this group back to Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Back to Germany — what do you mean by "back"? 

Mr. Starnes. To visit Germany. 

Mr. Kuhn. It was my idea. 

Mr. Starnes. It was your idea to go over there in uniform? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You wore your uniform? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And you marched down the streets of Berlin? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; with the permission of the German Ambas- 
sador. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you get permission of German officials to march? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; you have to get the permission of the police 
department to march on the streets. 

Mr. Starnes. And at this time you presented this contribution 
that has been referred to ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. If I am correctly informed, the statistics available 
show that there has been no relief problem in Germany for years. 
One of the proud boasts of the German Government is that there is 
no relief problem, and that they have to import labor. 

Mr. Kuhn. That was not my concern. I do not know enough 
about the conditions in Germany to say that. 

Mr. Starnes. You say you did not know about the conditions. 
You know about the conditions of employment ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. That there is no unemployment ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Is it true that they have actually had to import 
labor — is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And that has been the condition for several years? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not think it has been so for several years. 

Mr. Starnes. Under those circumstances, why did you feel it 
necessary for you to issue a call for relief funds in Germany, with 
everybody at work? 

Mr. Kuhn. In the first place, that was in 1936, and in 1936 there 
were relief needs. There was a need in 1936 and in 1935. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you receive communications from friends in 
Germany to the effect that a winter-relief program should be carried 
on there ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. That they would like to have the friends of Ger- 
many throughout the world to help them in this fight for relief? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You conceived this idea yourself? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Without any suggestions from anyone? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. Knowing the conditions over there, or having knowl- 
edge of the conditions over there, you called on American citizens 
to contribute toward this fund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 






■■■ 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3839 

Mr. Starnes. As to this honor roll that you presented to Hitler, 
do 1 understand you presented him with an honor roll on that oc- 
casion, or did you present Hitler with an honor roll book at the same 
time, or at the time you gave this help? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was not an honor roll, but just a book roll. Every- 
body has the right to sign his name in this book. 

Mr. Starnes. All the contributors signed that book which was 
presented \ 

Mr. Ktjhn. Yes, sir. 

Mi-. Starnes. Did they know that the book was to be presented 
to Hitler \ 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Who told them that it would be presented to him? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did. 

Mr. Starnes. You made this arrangement, or made the arrange- 
ment to take up this contribution and to obtain these signatures 
months before you went to Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. A few months before. 

Mr. Starnes. And you did that with the express purpose of send- 
ing the money and the book to the Fuehrer? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. With whom did you make the arrangement? 

Mr. Kuhn. What arrangement? 

Mr. Starnes. To present him with the book and money. 

Mr. Kuhn. Nobody. 

Mr. Starnes. I have here the 1937 yearbook of the German- 
American Bund. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is not a year book of the German-American 
Bund. I told you that yesterday. That is a publication of Walter 
Kappe. He was at that time the editor. 

Mr. Starnes. A publication of the German-American Bund \ 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; not of the German-American Bund. He was 
the editor of that newspaper. 

Mr. Starnes. It was published by the Deutscher Weckruf Beo- 
bachter ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; it is a newspaper. 

Mr. Starnes. It shows a parade of children in Chicago, and an- 
other picture. Is that an authentic photograph. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; I think so. 

Mr. Starnes. That is a part of the German-American youth 
movement ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Under the sponsorship and leadership of the Ger- 
man-American Bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. A salute is being given. What is that salute ? 

Mr. Kuhn. With an upright hand. 

Mr. Starnes. That is the salute of the Nazi government? 

Mr. Kuhn. We have the same salute; yes sir. 

Mr. Starnes. I notice another picture published in this same pub- 
lication. This is supposed to have been taken at Elizabeth, N. J., on 
May 25, 1935. You have a unit at Elizabeth, do you not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 



3840 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. It shows a group in uniforms, with a flag. The 
swastika and the American flag are both there. 

Mr. Kuhn. I was not there in 1935. That does not concern me. 

Mr. Starnes. You do not know anything about that ? 

Mr. Kuhn. It does not .concern me. I am not responsible for it. 

Mr. Starnes. Did the Friends of New Germany hold camps? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. 

Mr. Starnes. The camp idea was a bund idea, was it not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir ; it was my idea. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have any connection at all with the German 
war veterans group? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Do they attend meetings? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Do they attend in uniform ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir ; once in a while. 

Mr. Starnes. Some of them are members of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. They might be. 

Mr. Starnes. There is a connection between the Railroad Tourists 
German Bureau and the German-American Bund, is there not? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir ; there is no connection. 

Mr. Starnes. There is no connection? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. There is no correspondence between them? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. There is no connection of any kind ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Is it putting out a number of motion-picture films 
for the public which you might say is either enlightenment or propa- 
ganda, depending on the viewpoint, which they furnish the various 
bund post meetings, through this medium ? 

Mr. Kuhn. They might be. 

Mr. Starnes. I believe that one of the purposes of your organiza- 
tion, and is so stated in the constitution, is to be and remain worthy 
of Germany, and their German blood, German customs, German prin- 
ciples, and so forth, and to cultivate German language, customs, and 
ideals, and to be proud of those principles. It appears in section 11 
of article 2, as one of the purposes of the German-American Bund. 
Is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. At the camps, where you take children, you are 
carrying on a program of physical education, are you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. In sports, swimming, boxing, and so forth? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; all kinds of sports. 

Mr. Starnes. What about calisthenics? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know what you mean. 

Mr. Starnes. Physical exercise. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; they have that. 

Mr. Starnes. How are they organized? Do you have a leader 
there, and does he have subleaders? 

Mr. Kuhn. There is one man in charge of the camp. 

Mr. Starnes. How many assistants does he have? 

Mr. Kuhn. As many as are necessary. 



TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3841 

Mr. Starnes. What about the hours? 

Mr. Kuhn. They come up like they do at Scout camps. They 
come up to the camp, have breakfast, swim, and have some exer- 
cising. They eat lunch, get rested, and swim and exercise again. 
That is the basic program. 

Mr. Stabnes. Do you give any classroom instruction? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not in the camps. 

Mr. Starnes. Where is that carried on? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is carried on in the Saturday schools for the 
German language. 

Mr. Starnes. On Saturdays you conduct German language 
schools. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. While in the camps, do they use the German lan- 
guage, and is that done in order that they may familiarize them- 
selves with the German language? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; they use whatever language they see fit. 

Mr. Starnes. What type of instruction is given? What is the 
first textbook used for the instruction of the children ? 

Mr. Kuhn. They have no textbook. 

Mr. Starnes. How do they instruct them in the language if they 
do not have textbooks? 

Mr. Kuhn. For instance, they have some fables. 

The Chairman. Is Mein Kampf one of the fables ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. That is one of the fables, is it not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not for the children. 

Mr. Starnes. You have speeches sent from Germany, disseminated 
in the German language? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have that in your movement ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You have invited a number of consuls to serve or 
to make talks to them ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir ; not to the children. 

Mr. Starnes. You do distribute pamphlets and printed matter, or 
program of enlightenment, do you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You have a number of German consuls to address 
meetings wherever you have a bund group, do you not? You have 
a number of German consuls wherever you have bund groups, do 
you not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. The only exception there is German day. 

Mr. Starnes. What day is that '. 

Mr. Kuhn. The 1st day of October. 

That has been only the last 2 years. The only exception is German 
day. 

Mr. Starnes. Prior to 2 years ago, was there not a close connection 

(between the Friends of New Germany, or between Germans and 
American citizens of German extraction ? 
Mr. Kuhn. I could not see any close connection. 
Mr. Starnes. Up to 3 years ago. was not the Friends of New 
Germany working side by side with them, in the battle to unite 



3842 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

people of the German race, German citizens, or people of German 
birth or German extraction here? 

Mr. Kuhn. For your information, I will say that the Friends of 
New Germany in 1935 was not a political organization, but was a 
social society. 

Mr. Starnes. I did not say it was a political organization, but at 
that time they were working side by side with them to that end, and 
sometime in 1935 or 1936, an order came from Germany which said 
that in this movement, or in these movements, in this country Ger- 
man citizens should work side by side. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is not correct. I never saw a written order, or 
any order given out by the German Government for the United 
States. That was all over the countries, where there were German 
citizens, and any country, not to belong to political organizations. 
That was not the Friends of New Germany. It was long before that. 

The Chairman. There is one thing I want to have cleared up in 
connection with this, and I would like to get a more definite state- 
ment about it : In your application, or, rather, your receipt for a 
donation you say: "I hereby acknowledge a donation of $1 for the 
fifth year of our battle." That is dated in 1937, so that your battle 
started in 1932, did it not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. It started before that. 

The Chairman. Why does it say "the fifth year of our battle"? 

Mr. Kuhn. That was not true. 

The Chairman. That was the year that Hitler started his battle? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

The Chairman. He went into power in 1933? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. It was started in 1932? 

Mr. Kuhn. He started in 1933. In 1932 the German element was 
persecuted, and badly so. It was persecuted long before that. 

The Chairman. He won his battle in 1933? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. Ur 

The Chairman. In 1932 he began his battle? I 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; he started in 1919. Mr. K 

The Chairman. In 1933 there occurred his organization or reform 
of the Nazi Party? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. You tell me that. I do not know. 

The Chairman. When you said "our battle" did you not have in 
mind the battle of Hitler? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; I d ; d not. 

The Chairman. What did you mean by that? 

Mr. Kuhn. Because the German element had been persecuted 
a long time. 

The Chairman. What was the significance of that statement, "the 
fifth year of our battle"? 

Mr. Kuhn. Because from that time, for 5 years 

The Chaiopn. You mean that the battle started in 1932? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir: in a small amount. 

The Ciiatrman. Who started the battle in 1932 against the Ger- 
mans? 

Mr. Kuhn. The Communist movement. 

The Chairman. The Communist movement? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3843 

The Chairman. What other organizations? 

Mr. Kuiin. The Non-Sectarian League. 

The Chairman. What other organizations? 

Mr. Kuiin. Many other organizations. 

The Chairman. They started a battle against the Germans just 
before Hitler won his battle '. 

Mr. Krux. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. These organizations started a conscious movement 
of German persecution? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Name some of them. 

Mr. Kuiin. In 1935 

The Chairman. I said 1932. 

Mr. Kuiin. I do not know about 1932. I mean what I saw with 
my own eyes. 

The Chairman. What do you mean by that? 

Mr. Kuhn. In January 1933 I saw a meeting in the Lincoln Turn 
Hall broken up. 

The Chairman. What was that meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. Of German societies, four or five societies. The Ger- 
man War Veterans were there. 

The Chairman. What else was there? 

Mr. Kuiin. There was another society of the German Friends. 
That was at the Lincoln Turn Hall in Chicago. 

The Chairman. Who broke it up? 

Mr. Kuhn. Some Communist movement led by Schreider. 

Mr. Chairman. Who broke it up? 

Mr. Kuhn. Schreider. 

The Chairman. What did he do? 

Mr. Kuhn. He came in with about a thousand people and broke 
the meeting up. 

The Chairman. That was 1932? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir ; the beginning of 1932. 

The Chairman. What other instances were there? 

Mr. Kuhn. I was not at the other places. 

The Chairman. What other instances were there? 

Mr. Kuhn. There was one at Detroit, one at New York, and other 
places. That was one where I was present myself. I know that vou 
want to make a connection there, but there is no connection. That 
has nothing to do with it. You want to connect it with the fight 
in Germany. 

The Chairman. When you sav here "our battle" you did not have 
in mind the same thing that Hitler had. 

Mr. Kuiin. No, sir; certainly not. 

The Chairman. You had in mind a battle here in the United 
States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What would you say the battle was against? 
Would you say that it was against all the German people? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not all of them. 

The Chairman. What element was it against? 

Mr. Kuhn. The active part, the units, societies, leagues, and so 
forth. 

IThe Chairman. Do you know, as a matter of fact, that on nu- 
merous occasions, consuls did address the meetings ? 



3844 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. I told you that on German Day we invite 
them. 

The Chairman. On occasions outside of German Da}' you have 
had German consuls to address the meetings. You have had them 
outside of German Day? 

Mr. Kuhn. Very few. 

The Chairman. You know very well that your bund has carried 
on correspondence with agencies in Germany. 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You must know that they have. 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you mean to say that they have not carried on 
such correspondence with German agencies? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; they have not. 

The Chairman. How do you account for the letters that Peter 
Gissibl had? Did he not exchange correspondence with agencies of 
the German Government? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know about Gissibl. You will have to subpena 
him. 

The Chairman. He was subpenaed. Did you not know that the 
Chicago Bund post had correspondence with agencies in Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Then, why did 3^011 issue the order to destroy all the 
papers before we could get there? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did that ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. They did destroy them? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You destroyed correspondence between your bund 
and German Government agencies? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir ; it was private. It was a private organization, 
and they sent a few books — two dozen books. The}- were not of a 
political nature at all. 

The Chairman. Did you read the correspondence between the Chi- 
cago Bund post and the agents in Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Is that the only bund post you know of that had 
such correspondence with German agencies ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir; they cannot have any official correspondence. 
They sent a letter, sending two dozen books. That letter came into the 
hands of a newspaper, and it was spread all over the newspapers and 
magazines. From that they said, there was a connection with Ger- 
many. 

The Chairman. Do you know of any other bund posts that have ex- 
changed letters with German agencies? You have received many let- 
ters from Germany, have you not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Of course ; I have my father there. 

The Chairman. Do you not get lots of pamphlets and books from 
Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you not have correspondence with the World 
Service in Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you not get letters from agents in Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir:' I do not. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3845 

The Chairman. Was that not true of the Chicago Bund post? 
Why did you order those letters destroyed? 

Mr. Kuhn. I have explained to you 

The Chairman (interposing). You have not explained it at all. 
You say you have not received any such letters, and I have asked 
you : "Why did you order the bund post leader to destroy the cor- 
respondence before it could be seized?" 

Mi-. Kuhn. I said that there was no official correspondence. 

The Chairman. Then why the necessity of issuing that order? 

Mr. Kuhn. The order was to destroy the private correspondence. 

The Chairman. You ordered them to destroy the correspondence, 
because you knew that such correspondence was in existence? 

Mr. Kuhn. There was no fair play. That is why. 

The Chairman. You knew there was such correspondence? 

Mr. Kuhn. They will take everything in a different way. It was 
harmless. 

The Chauoian. Did you not know that there was such correspond- 
ence when you issued the order ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Private correspondence: yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you not know that it was correspondence be- 
tween the bund post and German agencies in Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhx. No, sir ; I did not know that, 

The Chairman. I call your attention to some 20 letters that passed 
between the Chicago bund post with agents in Germany. You do 
not deny that the correspondence took place, do you? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know anything about that. 

The Chairman. You are responsible for it? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. He could not write any official letters. 

The Chairman. He was the fuehrer, and he was writing letters 
for the local post? 

Mr. Kuhx. I do not know anything about that. Why do you not 
subpena him? 

The Chairman. He was subpenaed, and those letters are part of the 
files. You know they carried on their correspondence with agencies 
in Germany, do you not ? 
had Mr. Kuhn. Not to my knowledge. 

The Chairman. Why did you order it destroyed, if there was no 
such correspondence ? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was not correspondence with any official over there. 

The Chairman. You were talking about the question of fair play, 
( L g er . but you ordered that correspondence destroyed before the committee 
went into action. 

Mr. Kuhn. I told you why. I sent a telegram and asked that a 
subpena be sent, but you did not. You did not do that, 

Mr. Thomas. I object to the witness making speeches. 

Mr. Kuhn. I have to defend myself. Mr. Chairman, I would like 
to have a lawyer here. I must have legal advice now. 

Mr. Starnes. Peter Gissibl was the former leader of the bund in 
Chicago, was he not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. He is a brother of Fritz Gissibl? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; a brother of Fritz Gissibl. 

94931— 39 — vol. 6 10 



3846 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starves. Do you know anything about any representation be- 
ing made to the German Government about Fritz Gissibl and Walter 
Kappe ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did not get that. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know anything about any official representa- 
tions that this Government, or any agent of this Government, made to 
the German Government with reference to the objectionable activities 
of Fritz Gissibl and Walter Kappe? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think there was : yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. It was after that time that you undertook — in order 
to protect your German-American Bund — it was after that time that 
you issued your order that there must be a separation ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I told you yesterday that it was in the convention of 
193), in Philadelphia. There was no definite order. 

Mr. Starnes. What was the organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. The Friends of New Germany. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you hold an official position at that time? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. St.' rnes. What position? 

Mr. Kuhn. I was local leader in Detroit. 

Mr. Starnes. Peter Gissibl is no longer the head of the German 
Bund in Chicago? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You removed him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You removed him at the time that this meeting of the 
committee was called ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir; but that had nothing to do with the meeting 
here. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you say anything about the reasons for removing 
Peter Gissibl ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. What reasons did you assign? 

Mr. Kuhn. He made long statements, and I knew that he had 
correspondence with his father in Germany. 

Mr. Starnes. You made the statement that he was a traitor to the 
cause ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Why did you say he was a traitor to the cause? 

Mr. Kuhn. For a bund officer 

Mr. Staiines (interposing). Was he a traitor to the cause because 
he testified before a congressional committee? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir. 

Mr. St rnes. I will ask you to look at this photostatic copy of a 
ticket. It is ticket No. 4213, and reads : 



■ 



«iewi 



then if v ^ 






The bearer of this ticket has donated 10 cents for the benefit of Camp Nord- 
land of the German-American Bund ; Sunday. July 18, 1937, the date of the 
grand opening; the following prizes will be given away: First prize, a round 
trip to Germany; second prize, a refrigerator; third prize, a short-wave radio; 
and 20 other valuable prizes. becaiK 

German-American Bund Units of the State of New Jersey. 

Those were the prizes offered? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; they might be. 

Mr. St rnes. The first prize was a round trip to Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 



- of a 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3847 

Mr. Starnes. What was there so attractive about that? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not undersi and your question ; that is not a fair 
question. If .you are Irish and are going to Ireland on a vacation 
because you are Irish, what is wrong about that? 

Mr. Starnes. What I want 

Mr. Kuhn. Do you not want me to answer your question? Is not 
that an answer to vour question? 

Mr. Starnes. What I want is this 

Mr. Kuhn. What is wrong about them going to Germany? If I 
had a passport, I would go now. 

Mr. Starnes. Just answer my question. I do not want to have 
an argument about it. 

Mr. Kuhn. I want a lawyer; I must have a lawyer. If that is 
the way you are going to conduct the investigation, I have to have 
legal advice. 

The Chairman. You make a formal request for a lawyer? 

Mr. Ktjhn. I make a formal request for a lawyer. 

The Chairman. As I understand the rules in connection with the 
matter, witnesses are not permitted the benefit of counsel before 
consressional committees; is that true, Mr. Whitley? 

Mr. Whitley. They can be accorded that privilege. 

It is within the discretion of the committee. 

The Chairman. You feel that you want a lawyer ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not so long as you give me a chance to talk. But if 
the gentleman cuts me off, then I do not know what I can object to, 
or when I cannot object. 

The Chairman. The Chair is being lenient with you in order to 
prevent you from going out and saying you did not have an oppor- 
tunity to talk. 

Mr. Starnes. My objection is that he does not talk enough. 

Mr. Kuhn. Congressman Thomas cuts me off all the time. 

Mr. Starnes. I did not cut you off. 

Mr. Kuhn. You did not; no; you did not. 

Mr. Starnes. I am perfectly willing to have you talk. I want an 
answer to my questions, and if you want to make explanatory state- 
ments. I have no objection. 

Mr. Kuhn. I was ordered by the chairman not to talk. 

Mr. Thomas. I want to make it clear that I am not trving to cut 
the witness off from talking, but I think the witness should be more 
responsive to the questions in testifying and not bs unruly. 

If we decide to let him make a statement, I am agreeable to have 
him a make a statement, but we are asking him questions, and I think 
he should be more responsive to those questions. 

The Chairman. Suppose we do this: When a question is asked, 
then jet the witness make his answers responsive to the question, 
then if you have any explanation to make 

Mr. Kuhn. And in the question there cannot be any conclusion. 

The Chairman. Make your answers responsive, and then if you 
have any explanation that you think is necessary, indicate that fact, 
because this committee does not want to be unfair to you or to any 
other witnesses. Is that satisfactory? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; it is. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, Mr. Kuhn, my question is this: Why did you 
place that as a first prize? Was there any particular reason for' it? 



3848 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. There is no particular reason, because I think that is 
the highest prize. Sometimes we have an automobile as a prize and 
sometimes we have an automobile and a round trip ticket to Ger- 
many. If he does not want to go to Germany he can get the money. 

Mr. Starnes. But why did you 

Mr. Kuhn. I have not finished. Why do you not talk about the 
prize where we had the round-trip ticket to Bermuda? 

Mr. Starnes. Then the third prize was a short-wave radio set. 
Was that usual ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Sometimes. 

Mr. Starnes. You encourage your members to buy short-wave 
radio sets? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is up to them. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you not encourage them to do it? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not know whether they do; it is none of my 
business. 

Mr. Starnes. Is it true that foreign broadcasts can be picked up 
on short-wave sets? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you encourage your members to do that at your 
bund campmeetings? 

Mr. Kuhn. You call that fair, because there is a short-wave radio, 
if a man tries to make a connection there? That is why I want a 
lawyer. 

Mr. Starnes. I asked him if it was not true that on the short- 
wave radio sets you can pick up foreign broadcasts. 

The Chairman. What is wrong with that? 

Mr. Kuhn. Do you not see that connection he is drawing, to put 
me in? 

The Chairman. You are the one who is drawing that conclusion. 

Mr. Kuhn. He puts that to me and I ketched that a little too late. 
Are they all like you from Alabama, Mr. Starnes? 

Mr. Starnes. Can you answer the question? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I can. 

Mr. Starnes. You can pick up broadcasts from other countries on 
a short-wave radio set? 

Mr. Kuhn. You have a short-wave radio? 

Mr. Starnes. Sure; I asked you if you cannot do that. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; but I do not have one. 

Mr. Starnes. In the cultivation — that is the language of your con- 
stitution — the cultivation of the German language, customs, and 
ideals, do } t ou consider it would further your program if your mem- 
bers were able, through short-wave radio sets, to get concerts, lec- 
tures, or talks, and so forth, over short-wave radio sets from some 
other country? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; if they want to. 

Mr. Starnes. That is all I am asking you. 

Mr. Kuhn. Sure ; if they want to. 

Mr. Starnes. You encourage that? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. 

Mr. Starnes. You did not encourage it? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; I did not. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you not think that is a most excellent manner 
in which to cultivate those ideals? 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3849 



Mr. Kuhn. Sure: and that 



set. 



Mr. Starnes. Do you not give out circulars, or print circulars at 
jour bund meetings, in which the members are told that lectures or 
speeches or statements will be made in Germany and can be caught 
over the short wave? 

Mr. Kuhn. With one exception, no. It was that speech, I sup- 
pose you heard him, because I know I heard him; Hitler's speech 
that was made there for the whole world, that the whole world was 
waiting for. I heard him myself. 

Mr. Starnes. I have heard him on more than one occasion. I 
wanted to know whether or not it was the policy of your organ- 
ization to encourage your members to tune in ? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is not the policy; if they want to do it, they can 
do it. 

Mr. Starnes. You do know that they send out frequent radio 
broadcasts ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think they do; they have a real program. 

Mr. Starnes. Both the German and Italian Governments do 
that? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know about the Italian. 

Mr. Starnes. The German Government does that? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And in those broadcasts they tell of the progress 
being made by the national socialistic movement in the German 
country ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so, but am I responsible for that? 

Mr. Starnes. I understand you are not, but they stress those 
advantages. 

Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so. 

Mr. Starnes. They call on Germans everywhere to unite in an 
effort to help the mother country. 

Mr. Kuhn. Not long ago I heard a speech from Russia in 
English. 

Mr. Starnes. You carry a notice in the Weckruf concerning the 
broadcasts, giving the time and place ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And that newspaper is distributed among the mem- 
bers of your organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. To everybody. 

Mr. Starnes. And to the members of your organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. If they buy them, it is all right. 

Mr. Starnes. Do they not subscribe to the paper? 

Mr. Kuhn. Some of them. 

Mr. Starnes. Are they required to subscribe? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is entirely voluntary. 

The Chairman. Let me ask you a question right there. You say 
you did not receive any communication from anyone in Germany 
suggesting that matter? 

Mr. Kuhn. My first or second trip? 

The Chairman. The trip you made in 1936. You did not have 
any suggestion from anyone in Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; outside of the fact that we had, of course, the 
railroad ticket office, the traveling bureau made all the arrangements 
for us. 



3850 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. For that trip. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. You had no invitation or suggestion from any 
agency in Germany with reference to that matter 2 

Mr. Kuhn. Certainly not. 

The Chairman. Have you ever corresponded with the Foreign In- 
stitute at Stuttgart? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. I want you to understand my question. Have you 
ever received any letters from the Foreign Institute of Stuttgart? 

Mr. Kuhn. I might have received one. 

The Chairman. You just received one? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Would you say you had not received more than 
one? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; I do not think so. 

The Chairman. Are you sure? 

Mr. Kuhn. You say about that trip? 

The Ch \irman. Or on any matter. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes: I received one. 

The Chairman. The onlv letter you ever received from the Foreign 
Institute was on one occasion? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. When was that? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was around 1936; it was after I came back from 
Germany. 

The Chairman. Do you have that letter? 

Mr. Kuhn. I have it. 

The Chairman. In your files? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I have it. 

The Chairman. What was the letter about? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall; it was just thanking me for a good 
time. I will be willing to give you that letter. 

The Chairman. In that letter, which hns been identified here by 
Peter Gissibl as being a letter you received from the Foreign Insti- 
tute, the Foreign Institute wrote Peter Gissibl as follows [reading] : 

Weeks ago 

Mr. Kuhn. That letter was written to me? 

The Chairman. No; to Peter Gissibl. 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know anything about that. 

The Chairman. I am goimr to ask you if the statements in this 
letter are true, to your knowledge. In the letter it says [reading] : 

Weeks ago I write to Fritz Kuhn, suggesting a trip to Germany for bund 
members. 

Did von ever <ret such a letter from the Foreign Institute ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; never. 

The Chairman. That is absolutely untrue? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is absolutely untrue. Peter Gissibl wrote to 

whom? 

The Chairman. This was a letter written by the Foreign Institute 

to Petev Gissibl. 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know anything about that. Who signed that 

letter? 






food 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3851 

The Chairman. That is signed by the Foreign Institute 

Mr. Kuhn. Who signed it? 

The Chairman. It is signed by the Foreign Institute. 

Mr. Kuhn. Who — it was a man that signed it. 



■•& j 



The Chairman. This is a copy. This does not show the signa- 
ture on the letter. 

Mr. Kuhn. What is a letter without a signature? 

The Chairman. We have the original letter. 

Mr. Kuhn. What was the signature — I know whose signature 
that is. 

The Chairman. I do not know; do you know whose signature it 
was ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. But you just said you know. 

Mr. Kuhn. I can think who it was. 

The Chairman. How are you able to know the signature? 

Mr. Kuhn. Because it is Peter Gissibl. 

The Chairman. I did not say Peter Gissibl was the man who 
signed it. 

Mr. Kuhn. You said the letter is addressed to Peter Gissibl and 
his brother is in the institute, do you not see ? 

Mr. Starnes. His brother is in the Ausland? 

Mr. Kuhn. Sure ; he was at that time. Where he is now I do not 
know ; I do not write to Fritz Gissibl any more. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Kuhn, you said you went to Germany in July 
1936? 

Mr. Kuhn. We sailed on the 20th or the 22d of July; at the end 
of July we sailed. 

Mr. Thomas. How long did you stay in Europe ? 

Mr. Kuhn. We arrived on the 1st of August 1936, and I was back 
in New York on the 30th of September. 

Mr. Thomas. The 30th of September? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; I was there about 2 months. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you visit any countries other than Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not in 1936; no. 

Mr. Thomas. You did not visit France? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did in 1938. 

Mr. Thomas. You visited France in 1938? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Thomas. Yesterday you made some reference to a visit that 
Mr. Bernard Baruch made on Mr. Stalin; do you recall that refer- 
ence? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Since yesterday have you had an opportunity to 
check the statement you made yesterday? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; my office is in New York. 

Mr. Thomas. You said, I believe, that Mr. Baruch called on Mr. 
Stalin? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. And then when he returned here he compared Soviet 
Russia with the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Thomas. You said you saw a statement to that effect in various 
New York papers? 



3852 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you see that statement yourself in various New 
York papers? 

Mr. Kuhn. I had the clippings. I could make that a little clearer; 
in his company was Mr. Untermeyer, and they asked Mr. Untermeyer 
why he came back with a nose bloody. 

Mr. Stabnes. That is Samuel Untermeyer? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; Samuel Untermeyer, 80 years old. 

Mr. Thomas. You saw those statements in the New York papers? 

Mr. Kuhn. In the New York papers. 

Mr. Thomas. What New York papers ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall. 

Mr. Thomas. You said, I believe, "all the leading New York 
papers?" 

Mr. Kuhn. I said the "leading New York papers," at least four 
or five. 

Mr. Thomas. Would that include the New York Herald Tribune? 

Mr. Kuhn. I cannot make a statement on that. 

Mr. Thomas. Would it include the New York Times ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Either one. I have the clippings out of those different 
papers, and I will be willing to send them to you. 

Mr. Thomas. Will you send those clippings to our attorney or 
counsel ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Of course. 

Mr. Thomas. One of our investigators checked these papers to see 
whether that statement appeared and he has been unable to find any 
such statement. 

Mr. Kuhn. I will furnish you with such a statement. 

Mr. Thomas. In reference to that, I have a statement here I want to 
lead to you. This is an article which appeared in the New York 
Times on September 15, 1936, and I will read the article as follows 
[reading] : 

Bernard M. Baruch, commenting yesterday on a statement published in 
the Action Franchaise — 

You have heard of that newspaper? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas (reading) : 

which said he had participated in conferences with Ambassador William 0. 
Bullitt and Maxim Litvinoff, Soviet Foreign Commissar, said : "I never had an 
interview with Bullitt and Litvinoff near Vichy or any other place and denied 
the story at that time. I never heard the sound of Litvinoff's voice nor have 
I ever had any communication with him. I opposed recognition of Russia 
and opposed having relations with her. 

"When it was suggested that I might help revamp the transportation and 
industries of Russia, I expressed my sympathies with the Russian people, but 
said that nothing I could devise woidd suit because I believe in personal 
selectivism, reward of personal initiative, and a freedom of the individual 
that was not contemplated by communism." 

What you probably referred to yesterday as the meeting he had 
with Stalin may have been the reported meeting with Litvinoff; 
is (hat not possible? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I just want to point out that he did not deny 
that he saw Stalin. I have looked it up in the Jewish Examiner. 

Mr. Thomas. You still claim that he saw Stalin ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I was not there; I cannot claim that. 



m 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3853 

Mr. Thomas. You saw the newspaper in which 

Mr. Kuiin. Absolutely. 

Mr. Thomas (continuing). In which it was reported that he saw 
Stalin. 
Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

I Mr. Thomas. Do you recall seeing this article? 
Mr. Kuiin. No; I do not recall that. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you recall seeing something after that time that 
he had a meeting with Litvinoff? 

Mr. Kuhn. I heard about it. 

Mr. Thomas. You do recall that? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. You know this paper Action Francaise; you know 
this newspaper ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. You know that is one of the leading Fascist papers 
probably in the world? 

Air. Kuhn. Fascist papers? We do not call them Fascist papers. 

Mr. Thomas. You know in Europe they consider this paper- 



ikii 



.m '■: 



Mr. Kuhn. In France there is not any Fascist paper allowed. In 
France there is a Nationalist Party. 

Mr. Thomas. You know in France it is considered the leading 
Fascist paper? 

Mr. Kuhn. The leading nationalist paper. 

Mr. Thomas. You believe there is a difference between nation- 
llll ' al alism in Germany and fascism in Italy? 

Mr. Kuhn. Fascism in Italy? 

Mr. Thomas. Yes. 

Mr. Kuhn. Now you are getting over the same ground. 
T ^' : Mr. Thomas. I am asking you another question : You believe there 
is a difference between nationalism in Germany and fascism in Italy ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think so. 
iii Mr. Thomas. There is a difference, you think? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; however, that French newspaper is the mouth- 
piece of the Nationalist Party in France, but not the Fascist Party. 

Mr. Thomas. Is there a difference in France between the Nation- 
alist Party and the Fascist Party? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; of course there is. 

Mr. Thomas. I always have considered the Nationalist Party in 
Germany, the Nationalist Party in France, and the Nationalist Party 
in Italy, all three as nazism or fascism. 

Mr. Kuhn. Not the Nationalist Parties. The Nationalist Parties, 
mostly 

Mr. Thomas. At any rate, what I am trying to bring out is this : 
You made a statement yesterday that Mr. Baruch had a meeting with 
Mr. Stalin, and that that was in the leading New York papers. 

Mr. Kuhn. I will furnish you with those clippings. 

Mr. Thomas. How soon will you be able to get those clippings? 
Can you send for them today so that we can get them tomorrow ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not think so, because two of my men are out of 
town. 

Mr. Thomas. Will you make certain that the committee counsel 
receives these clippings, because we have been unable to find such 
a statement in the New York papers. 



iilianfl 
i Drift, 

..1 dor V. 



pers 



<>. 






3854 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. I will be glad to send them to you. 

Mr. Thomas. I want to bring out another point. Yesterday you 
listed various units in the various States. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mr. Thomas. One of the units was a unit in Buffalo. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Thomas. As existing today. 

Mr. Kuhn. As existing today. 

Mr. Thomas. Is it not true that this unit you referred to in Buf- 
falo has been discontinued ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Discontinued for awhile. 

Mr. Thomas. In June 1939 and changed its name in June 1939. 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you ever hear that it changed its name t« the 
Spring Garden Association? 

Mr. Kuhn. The Spring Garden Association have nothing to do 
with the bund. That is a business corporation, and it conducts a 
camp. 

Mr. Thomas. Did not this unit in Buffalo, after it began to find 
out some of the things the bund stood for, decide to break away 
from the bund and change its name to Spring Garden Association? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Thomas. Who was the leader of the unit in Buffalo? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was Mr. Lubrecht. 

Mr. Thomas. Who is it now? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not recall. 

Mr. Thomas. Is the name Emil Auer? 

Mr. Kuhn. He is the president of the Spring Garden Associa- 
tion. 

Mr. Thomas. Was he not the leader of the group in Buffalo? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; never was. 

Mr. Thomas. The unit still exists in Buffalo? 

Mr. Kuhn. The unit still exists in Buffalo. 

Mr. Thomas. I noticed yesterday in listing these various units in 
New Jersey, you mentioned one in Bergen County. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Thomas. That was the only county unit you mentioned 
throughout the entire United States. 

Mr. Kuhn. No: I did not say that. That is the name of the 
unit because Bergen County has some small towns and they all meet 
in New Milford. You know what that is. 

Mr. Thomas. They met at the home of Caroline Mead. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. (Tlier, 

Mr. Thomas. Where is Caroline Mead now? 

Mr. Kuhn. So far as I know, she has gone to Germany. 

Mr. Thomas. She went to Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I think so. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you happen to know why she went to Germany? | T 1 
Have you had any correspondence with her since she has been in 
Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; I do not know when she left. 

Mr. Thomas. You went out there and visited at her home? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; she told me she was making a trip in Germany to 
find out whether all these stories are true. That would be very good 
if a lot of people would do that. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3855 



Mr. Thomas. Do you know how long she will stay in Germany? 

Mr. Kuiin. How do I know ''. 

Mr. Thomas. You visited at her home and you ought to know her 
pretty well. 

Mr. Kuhn. Who said that? 

Mr. Thomas. If I visited at your home I would get to know you 
pretty well. 

Mr. Kuiin. I have been out there when they have had a meeting 
there. There was a large library there for a meeting place. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether she went to Germany to stay 
permanently? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not think so ; her husband has business here. 

Mr. Thomas. You are not certain about that? 

Mr. Kuhn. She did not talk to me about that. She is making a 
trip to Germany; what is wrong about that? 

I will tell you one thing, that the General Attorney, Mr. Murphy, 
once was talking in our meeting. 

Mr. Thomas. Who did you say? 

Mr. Kuhn. The General Attorney. 

Mr. Thomas. The Attorney General of the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. He talked at your meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. He talked at our meeting. 

Mr. Thomas. Where was that meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. In the German House in Detroit. 

Mr. Thomas. What year was that? 

Mr. Kuhn. That was 1936. He was Governor at that time, after 
he was mayor. 

Mr. Thomas. Was he a speaker at the meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. He was a speaker at the meeting; he was invited to 
speak, and he spoke about 10 minutes. 

Mr. Thomas. He was invited to address the meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. To attend the meeting. 

Mr. Thomas. Invited to attend the meeting in Detroit ? 

Mr. Kuhn. In Detroit. 

Mr. Thomas. And he accepted the invitation and spoke there ? 

Mr. Kuhn. For about 10 minutes. 

Mr. Thomas. What was the topic of his speech? 
(l { t ]j Mr. Kuhn. He talked about the German element in general, about 
| lllS ! good citizens. 

Mr. Thomas. Did he praise the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; he did not praise the bund. 

(Thereupon, a recess was taken until 1: 15 p. m.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

The committee met pursuant to the taking of a recess at 1 : 15 p. m. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

Going back to these letters which I believe you said you could 
identify the signatures to. 

Mr. Kuhn. If I see them. 

The Chairman. If you see the letters you think you can identify 
the signatures? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I don't know whose signatures they might be. 



3856 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. I see. Here is one letter to Peter Gissibl, dated 
June 14, 1938, from Stuttgart. I will let you look at this letter and' 
see if you can identify the signature. 

Mr. Kuhn. I can hardly read that name. 

The Chairman. You never saw the signature before? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. You never received any letter from that person 
yourself? 

Mr. Kuhn. I can't spell the name. I think it is Moshack. 

The Chairman. Moshack; yes, that is the name. You are not 
familiar with that signature?- 

Mr. Kuhn. No; not familiar with it. 

The Chairman. Never saw it? 

Mr. Kuhn. I saw it — I saw him when he was here; I know Mr. 
Moshack. 

The Chairman. You saw him in the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; on a visit. 

The Chairman. Was he ever a member of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; never. 

The Chairman. When was he over here on a visit? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think it was in 1937. 

The Chairman. In 1937? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. You knew that he was connected with the Foreign 
Institute at Stuttgart, didn't you? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes — I didn't know it until he told me. 

The Chairman. Until he told you? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. And that was in 1937? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. When he told you that? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. D 0l 

The Chairman. And did you just meet him on the one occasion? J{ r ' 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. f] ie ' 

The Chairman. When you saw him did you have any discussion )[ r jj' 
with him with reference to supplying you with information? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. Nothing of that sort. What was the occasion of 
your meeting him? 

Mr. Kuhn. On his visit to the United States. 

The Chairman. On his visit to the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did he call upon you? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. He called upon you when you were in New York 
at that time? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Had you known him in Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. You knew him in Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did he serve with you during the war? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 






rtec 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3857 

The Chairman. When did you become acquainted with him in 
Germany i 

Mr. Kdhn. I met him in 1936 in Stuttgart. 

The Chairman. In 1936? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Which was the time of his visit? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Which you have testified about before. 

Mr. Kuhn. He was over here in 1936, not 1937. 

The Chairman. 1936 was when he was here? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. After you had returned from Germany on the 
occasion of the visit at the time you saw Hitler? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. As a matter of fact, he came on the same boat 
with me. 

The Chairman. He came on the same boat with you at that time? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. So you saw him quite often on the boat? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, only a few times. He was traveling first class. 

The Chairman. He was traveling first class? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. But you did see him on the boat ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. And did you discuss the bund's affairs with him 
on that occasion? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; not at all. 

The Chairman. Not at all? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

The Chairman. He writes Mr. Gissibl: 

You will have received by now my letter of April 11 in regard to a Mr. Roth 
who will go to you this summer. 

Do you know Mr. Roth ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. Did you know what he meant by Mr. Roth? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. Did a Mr. Roth ever call upon you? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman (reading) : 

I wrote you earlier that I would investigate Roth. I did so. No new informa- 
tion has come in. I repeat, therefore, my request to you to in every way further 
this plan and to write me as soon as possible. 

Have you anv idea about the plan? 

Mr. Kuhn. I haven't any idea what Mr. Gissibl referred to. 

The Chairman. Mr. Gissibl was your fiihrer? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. You appointed him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. And he was the responsible head of a big portion 
of the organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. And you have no idea what he meant by "the 
plan"? 



3858 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. By "this plan"? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not the slightest. 

The Chairman. Was there any plan of that kind in the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. That letter was written in 1938 ? 

The Chairman. June 14, 1938. 

Mr. Kuhn. Gissibl wasn't in the bund then. 

The Chairman. He wasn't a member of the bund when this letter 
was written in 1938? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Didn't you testify that you removed him from the 
bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. After he testified before this committee last year? 

Mr. Kuhn. I didn't know when he testified last year. It was in 
1937; in 1937. 

Mr. Starnes. I know; it was after he came before this committee? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know when he was here. 

The Chairman. Why did you remove him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Because he didn't conduct himself as a man that 
should be in our organization. 

The Chairman. You knew this correspondence was surrendered 
under subpena. 

Mr. Kuhn. I didn't know you had any correspondence like that. 

The Chairman. Oh, yes; you knew about it; you had some article 
in your paper about it. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. And you knew about it, 

Mr. Kuhn. That was after this investigation. 

The Chairman. Didn't that have anything to do with the removal? 

Mr. Kuhn. What, the correspondence? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Kuhn. Might be. 

The Chairman. Might be. 

Mr. Kuhn. Part of them. 

The Chairman. All right. So you knew nothing about Mr. Roth? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did not know anything about Mr. Roth. 

The Chairman. Xow here is a letter dated May 20, 1938. I will 
let you see the individuals names and let you identify the signature 
that the letter is from [handing letter to witness]. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I can. Right. 

The Chairman. Who is that man? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well the man is Vennekohl. 

The Chairman. What position did he have in the Foreign Insti- 
tute? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did not know he was in the Foreign Institute. 

The Chaibman. What is the letterhead; what letterhead is it? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is the organization, private organization, in 
Berlin. 

The Chairman. What i^ the name that you find there? 

Mr. Kuhn. Volksbund fur das Deuchschtun in Ausland. 

The Chairman. Will you tell us what that means in English? 

Mr. Kuhn. An organization, league for Germans in foreign coun- 
tries. 






lefts 

n the 

arl 
win 

lift*! 

b that 
Diked 

;e that. 

article 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3859 

The Chairman. Whal ( 

Mr. Kuun. League for the Germans in foreign countries. 

The Chairman. Now did you ever hear of that league before? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Have you ever received any communications from 
that league? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Letters and literature from it? 

Mr. Kuhn. I mentioned that some of the things I referred to be- 
fore when I testified, that I got some books from it. 

The Chairman. You got some books from that league? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. They supplied you with free publication? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; they did once. 

The Chairman. For the dissemination among bund members? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. I mean, the literature was made available for 
:hem ? 

Mr. Kuhn. For the local units. 

The Chairman. Local units? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you ever meet that man himself? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. In Berlin when you were there? 

Mr. Kuhn. I didn't meet him in Berlin. 

The Chairman. Where did you meet him? 

Mr. Kuhn. In Portland, Oreg. 

The Chairman. Portland, Oreg.? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. What year was that? 

Mr. Kuhn. 1936. 

The Chairman. 1936? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. He was over here on a visit? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; he was here, I don't know how long. 

The Chairman. He was living here? 

Mr. Kuhn. An immigrant. 

The Chairman. He never became a citizen of the United States. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes: he was. 

The Chairman. He was ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; to my knowledge he was. 

The Chairman. Was he a member of the bund ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. He was? 

Mr. Kuhn. He was a local leader at one time. 

The Chairman. He w T as one of the unit leaders in Portland? 
I Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. When did he seek to be a unit leader? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I don't know exactly. I think he went back 
1936. 

The Chairman. He went back to Germany in 1936? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; to the best of my knowledge. 
P' The Chairman. Has been there ever since? 

Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so. 






moval I 



I will 



Instil 

ite. 
lit! 



3860 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. And he is now conducting this league for Ger- 
mans abroad? 

Mr. Kdhn. He is associated with it, I suppose. 

The Chairman. What position does he hold, do you know ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. 

The Chairman. He is an assistant, in other words? 

Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so. 

The Chairman. Well, he writes letters on the stationery, in its 
behalf? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. So he must be with the league in some way. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. But really is a citizen of the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. He was. 

The Chairman. He was? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. How did he cease to be a citizen after he was a 
citizen; how did he cease to be? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know; I don't know that he was one; I said 
to the best of my knowledge. 

The Chairman. You said that he was a citizen, did you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. To the best of my knowledge ; yes. 

The Chairman. So that he would have to sever his citizenship, 
would he not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well. I don't know. 

The Chairman. What would he have to do to cease to be a citizen 
of the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, I suppose he would have to fill out an applica- 
tion the same as he has to do here. 

The Chairman. You don't know anything about that ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know anything about it. 

The Chairman. Has he returned from Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not to my knowledge. 

The Chairman. The only communication you have received since 
he went back to Germany was when he sent you these books? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. About 200 books? 

Mr. Kuhn. I said about two dozen books. 

The Chairman. About two dozen? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. And that is the only communication you have ever 
had from him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. What are his initials — E. A. Vennekohl 

Mr. Kuhn. u E. A." means in behalf of. 



The ( 

Mr.] 

The 

Mr.] 

The 

Mr.K 

TheC 

Mr. 

The i 

Mr, |j 

The ( 

Mr.] 
Mdm 

Mr. J, 

Hie | 

Mr. I 



The Chap-man. "E. A." are not his initials. Apparently the first 
initial is "N". ■ Mr.K 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know his first name. I TW 

The Chairman. What does it mean when these initials are on it? \;, j- 
Mr. Kuhn. It means if you are in position to demand me to write T ;, , , 
a letter I put the E. A. on it. ]J j- 

The Chairm <n t . This means that the letter is written for the boss? r 
Mr. Kuhn. For the head. I )( r t- 

The Chairman. For the head of this institution ? 



i 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3861 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. The name is Vennekohl. The first name — initial 
apparently is X. It doesn't show what the initials are. I cannot 
tell from here what it is. 

Xow this league has an official representative in this country, does 
it not '. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Chairman. What is his name? 

Mr. Kuhn. OrgeU. 

Mr. Whitlky. That is Gunther Orgell? 

Mr. Kuhn. OrgeU. 

The Chairman. Orgell; Gunther? You are very well acquainted 
with him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I know him; yes. 

The Chairman. Does he live in New York? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is he a member of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. Has he ever been a member of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. At no time? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. How long has he been a representative of this 
league in the United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know that. 

The Chairman. You don't know that? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. What is his position here? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Has he ever made speeches for the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; he never made speeches. 

The Chairman. Has he ever attended meetings for the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. It might be. 

The Chairman. Might be? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. He might attend meetings? 

Mr. Kuhn. W T ell if he wished to; I couldn't say. There may be 
any number present. 

The Chairman. I understand. 

Mr. Kuhn. It might be, of course, that he might be there but I 
could not say. 

The Chairman. Did you ever see him ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I never saw him at a meeting. 

The Chairman. You never saw him at any meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. I never saw him at a meeting. 

The Chairman. Did you ever see him at a conference? 

Mr. Kuhn. I saw him in my office. 

The Chairman. Many times? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, no; once in every 6 months. 

The Chairman. Once in every 6 months? 

Mr. Kuhn. Might be oftener. 

The Chairman. Might be 3 months? 

Mr. Kuhn. Might be. 

The Chairman. Might be 2 months? 

94931— 39— vol. 6 11 



3862 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. But might be 3 months? 

Mr. Kuhn. Might be. 

The Chairman. What has been the occasion of his visits to your 
office; in connection with your business? 

Mr. Kuhn. I haven't any business. 

The Chairman. Business of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. He just would come to see you to say "Howdy"? 

Mr. Kuhn. Howdy do. 

The Chairman. How do you. do? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; that is the way they would say it in Texas. How 
do they say it in Alabama? 

The Chairman. Has he ever been to see you in connection with 
any business? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not with the exception of the blue candles. 

The Chairman. Blue candles? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. What sort of business was that ? 

Mr. Kuhn. He had some blue candles. 

The Chairman. He had some blue candles? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. So that you have talked with him 

Mr. Kuhn. I got some blue candles. 

The Chairman. The blue candles were for your organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. I mean for the organization, not you ? 

Mr. Kuhn. For everybody. 

The Chairman. For everybody in the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; everybody could buy them if they wanted to. So r 
we bought some. 

The Chairman. You bought some blue candles from him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. And that is the only matter you ever had up 
with him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Do you know anything about what the purpose 
of this organization in Germany is? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is to contact, so far as I know, to have contact 
with German citizens all over the world. 

The Chairman. All over the whole world? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. He says here in the letter to Mr. Gissibl : 

We wrote you yesterday that 3,000 placards for the SangerfVst will reach 
you through Orgell. 

Mr. Kuhn. He writes that to Gissibl? 

The Chairman. Yes; I am not trying to indicate that you ever 
got such a letter from him. 

Mr. Kuhn. No. It is funny that you have a great deal of corre- 
spondence with Gissibl. 

The Chairman. That is correct. All the rest of it you had ordered 
destroyed. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 



Mr, 



kl 









UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3863 

The Chairman. Sure. [Continuing] : 

For several reasons we are having the placards packed in 10 separate parcels, 
of which two go to each of the following : 

I do not know that I can pronounce the names. The first is Fried - 
rich Schlenz. 

Do you know him? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. You never heard of him? 

Mr. Kuhn. He has no connection with the bund. 

The Chairman. Karl Moeller. Do you know him ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Where is he ; Chicago ? 

The Chairman. He does not give the address. 

Mr. Kuhn. I know Karl Moeller in New York. 

The Chairman. You know a Karl Moeller in New York? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. And to Karl Kraenzle. Do you know him? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. You never heard of him ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. Orgell, and two to you. 

Please inform your coworkers of the same and see that the expenses of 
duty he taken care of. Herr Orgell will later reimburse you. It was the 
simplest and the only way the placards could be sent to reach you in time. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Orgell has been in your office? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is Mr. Orgell. 

Mr. Starnes. You know that Mr. Orgell— you say that he has 
come to your office a number of times. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And you knew, of course, that Mr. Orgell was regis- 
tered here with the State Department as a Nazi ? 

Mr. Kuhn. He was registered in New York 

Mr. Starnes. He was registered as a Nazist propagandist. 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes (continuing). For spreading propaganda and enlight- 
ment throughout the world. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is a misrepresentation again. 

The Chairman. What is the fact? 

Mr. Whitley. Here is his registration. 

Mr. Kuhn. He is registered in New York, the State of New 
York. 

The Chairman. He is registered with the State Department, over 
here in the State Department? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes; the State Department has his registration. 

The Chairman. Carl Gunther Orgell. 

Mr. Whitley. Gunther Orgell. 

Mr. Kuhn. I did not say Gunther; you said that. 

The Chairman. Let me see his registration. 

Name of registrant : Carl G. Orgell. 

Status of registrant (individual, partnership, association, or corporation) : 
Individual. 

Principal business address : Great Kills, Staten Island, N. Y. 
Name of foreign principle or principles : D. V. A. Society. 

That is a society for people of Germanic extraction. 



3864 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. That is the society you just had the letterhead of. 
The Chairman (reading) : 

Address : Berlin ; W-30 Martin Luther Street, 97/Germany. 

Comprehensive statement of registrant : Nature of business of registrant : 
Private, membership of society originating something over 50 years ago as 
German school society. Members pay their dues and with this money, children 
of people of German stock outside the German Reich are supported ; schools 
are built ; books furnished ; scholarships granted, etc. This work has been 
carried on since over 50 years ago, mostly in southern Europe, Rumania, 
Poland, etc. 

Recently also private German (so-called educational) schools in the United 
States received free of charge books, primers, and so forth. Sample enclosed. 

You have referred to books from this society. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Publications of this society pointed out in the 
correspondence. He was recommending books, and in some cases 
delivered these books. 

Now, do you know anything about these 3,000 placards that were 
sent over by him ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not ; no. And you can see that the society was 
formed some 50 years ago, so you can see that it was not formed 
after Hitler was in power. It was not something that came out 
afterwards; but was there before Hitler was in power; was some 
50 years ago. 

The Chairman. Is it not a fact that you get the officers of this 
foreign institution to check up on the applicants for the bund. 

Mr. Kuhn. I never ; it never checked up on them. 

The Chairman. It never has checked upon any ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. Here is another letter dated April 22, 1938, ad- 
dressed to Dear Comrade Gissibl: 



We are sending you today one copy of our educational paper Volkdeutscher 
Ruf. 



intended only for the Reich, that in July will appear for the American-German 
following. 



Mr, 



What paper is that? 

Mr. Kuhn. The Volksdeutscher? '; 

The Chairman. Yes. Did you ever hear of that paper? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you ever get that paper ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Once in a while ; yes. 

The Chairman. You do get the paper? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman (reading) : 



hVi 
Mr.] 

The 
Mr. 



Do you know what is meant by "American-German following"? 
Mr. Kuhn. No ; you would have to ask Mr. Gissibl. 

The Chairman. I see. Now, did you request this particular edition )[,. 
of this paper that was intended for German-American following? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. (^ 

The Chairman. You did not request it ? | 

Mr. Kuhn. I get it once in a while but haven't much time to read it. 
The Chairman (reading) : 

In this number we should like a report on the German song in the fight for 
the upholding of Germandom in America. 






: for 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3865 

Perhaps a suitable article will be found in one of the festival number of Singers- 
paper, if not, perhaps you can get a suitable singer to write us such a report 
for the July number. 

Here is another letter also signed by the same man. 

I note in a letter here by Moshack, that he said on April 11 

Mr. Kuiin. That is addressed to whom? 

The Chairman. It is addressed to Gissibl. It reads : 

Enclosed is a copy of the letter I received a few days ago. I am getting in 
touch with you immediately and asking you for an opinion regarding Studen- 
assessor (chief Inspector of school studies) Roth's plan. I don't know him but 
I am having him investigated. If he should prove to be in every way dependable 
I am ready to support his plan to the utmost. I beg you in such a case to do the 
same. 

Do you know anything about the plan, u Roth's plan"? 
Mr. Kuiin. No. 

The Chairman. In this letter of April 2, 1938, by the same man to 
Peter Gissibl, he says : 

Deab ("omkade Gisbel : Unfortunately the visit of your Bf — 

Do you know what that means ? 
Mf.Kuhn. Bf? 

The Chairman. Bund fuehrer? 

Mr. Kuiin. Is that capital B, small f ; are they in capital letters? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Unfortunately, the visit of your Bf. caused by apparently all too many compli- 
cations that lie outside my compass has not yet led to any decided clearing tip. 
I have not seen your Bf up until now. 

In the record Mr. Gissibl testified that the ''Bf" was you. Do 
you know what is meant by that : what matter he thought needed to 
be cleared up? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. You will have to ask Mr. Gissibl. 

The Chairman. You do not have any knowledge yourself? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. Did you know the man 

Mr. Kuhn (interposing). As I told you before, I did not see the 
man. 

The Chairman. Do you know Colin Ross? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. What office did he have in the bund \ 

Mr. Kuhn. He never had an office in the bund. 

The Chairman. Had no official connection? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. Was he associated with you in any respect? 

Mr. Kuhn. I met him one year when he was a speaker at Turner 
Hall ; he was a speaker there but we were not the sponsors. 

The Chairman. Do you know where he is now ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not. 

The Chairman. That is the only association you ever had with 
Colin Ross? 

Mr. Kuhn. Sure. 

The Chairman. Do you know of any plans to provide for an 
exchange of boys and girls on vacation, with Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you participate in the formation of that 
plan? 






3866 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, not directly; no. 

The Chairman. When was it first proposed? 

Mr. Kuhn. 1937. 

The Chairman. In 1937? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think so, to the best of my knowledge. 

The Chairman. What was the first official information you had 
with reference to the plan? 

Mr. Kuhn. Around 1937, spring. 

The Chairman. Who took it up with you at first ? 

Mr. Kuhn. The youth leader. 

The Chairman. The youth leader of the bund ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. What is his name? 

Mr. Kuhn. Dinkelacker. 

The Chairman. Was it his idea? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not think so. 

The Chairman. It was a world proposition for every country, was 
it not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Surely — I do not know that. It was a proposition to 
exchange students. 

The Chairman. It was a proposition to exchange students? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you agree to the plan? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you cooperate in the plan? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, indirectly, through Mr. Dinkelacker. He did 
the detail work. 

The Chairman. Did he arrange for the exchange of students? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. How many different exchanges took place since 
that time? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think once a year. 

The Chairman. Once every year? 

Mr. Kuhn. Every year ; it was twice, I think, 1937 and 1938. 

The Chairman. 1937 and 1938? 

Mr. Kuhn. Twice. 

The Chairman. How many students did you send over there in 
1937? 

Mr. Kuhn. Around 30. 

The Chairman. Around 30 in 1937 ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. How many did you get in exchange? 

Mr. Kuhn. I could not tell you that exactly. 

The Chairman. You do not know how many you got in exchange? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. You did get some in exchange in 1937 and 1938, 
too? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I think so. 

The Chairman. What was the purpose of this exchange of stu- 
dents? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is being done so long as I can think of. It Mr. K 
was done all the time. 

The Chairman. It was done all the time? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3867 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; to make a better understanding, to have some- 
body study over there and somebody studying the situation here. It 
is only youngsters. 

The Chairman. To create a better understanding between the stu- 
dents? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. It is all students. It is not the grown-up ones. 
There is not any political background. 

The Chairman. It had no political significance whatever? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not at all. 

The Chairman. Purely cultural? 

Mr. Kuhn. Surely; educational. 

The Chairman. Educational? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. So they could see the advantages in Germany, or 
the progress that they had made there 

Mr. Kuhn. They could see the advantages in the United States. 

The Chairman. And the others could see the advantages in the 
United States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. I believe Mr. Whitley has some questions to ask. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, have you or your organization pledged 
loyalty to any foreign country at any time? 

Mr. Kuhn. Of course not. 

Mr. Whitley. Has this been the consistent attitude of both you 
and your organization from its beginning? 

Mr. Kuhn. Of course. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you or your organization at any time sup- 
ported the idea of dictatorship as a desirable form of government for 
this country? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not; no. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you and your organization in favor of the 
maintenance of freedom of speech, press, and assembly? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Particularly for minority opinion in this country? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you or your organization receive any direct or 
indirect instructions from any foreign agency or power? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the emblem of your organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was described before. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you describe it briefly, again? 

Mr. Kuhn. A rising sun, and on top a swastika. 

Mr. Whitley. Does your organization maintain any secret form 
of organization in this country? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Does your organization receive any foreign sub- 
sidies of any kind? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mi-. Whitley. Does your organization circulate printed matter 
originating in any foreign country? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Does your organization advocate civil war or thc- 
overthrow of the United States Government by force or violence? 



3858 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Whitley. Is your organization connected in any way with 
any foreign agency which advocates these ideas? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, a few moments ago, the chairman made 
reference to Dr. Colin Ross. I would like to have a little further 
information about him. Does he have any official connection with 
the German Government ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. 

Mr. AVhitley. Or with any agency of the German Government? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. Not to your knowledge? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the purpose of his trip to the United 
States last year? I believe he left this country in March of this 
year. He was here a number of months. 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he was speaking or lecturing 
throughout the country? 

Mr. Kuhn. He was lecturing; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know how many of your bund units he lec- 
tured before? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. You know that he did lecture before some of them? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not before the bund meetings ; not bund meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. No bund meetings at all ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Not in New York ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Not in Chicago? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Not in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. None at all. Do you know what groups he did lec- 
ture before, private groups ? 

Mr. Kuhn. He invited people himself. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he was taking motion pictures 
during that tour ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. As I said, I saw him once after a speech 
he delivered at Turner Hall, New York. 

Mr. Whitley. Had you known him prior to that time '. 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. He was speaking at Turner Hall in New York; was 
that a bund meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. It was not a bund meeting. But we were there. 

Mr. Whitley. Was it sponsored by the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. He called it. 

Mr. Whitley. He called the meeting himself, and the bund members 
attended? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. As far as you know, he had no official connection 
with the German Government? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not to my knowledge. 



tlieiv v 



P 












« 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3869 

Mr. Whitney. Did you know he was registered with the State De- 
partment in the United States as a foreign propagandist? 

Mr. Kuhn. I did not know that. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not know that? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. And he stated he was in this country for the purpose 
of lecturing and for the purpose of taking motion pictures. Did you 
know that? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I did not. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know what his connection with Germany 
is? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; I do not. 

Mr. Whitley. Does the German-American Bund in New York or 
elsewhere have an official doctor who looks after the applicants or the 
members of the youth movement? 

Mr. Kuhn. We do not have any official doctor. We have a certain 
doctor to which we send youngsters before they go to camp, to be 
examined. 

Mr. Whitley. For physical examination? 

Mr. Kuhn. Or it is a private doctor, whatever we please to do. 

Mr. Whitley. But you do recommend a certain doctor, a particu- 
lar doctor, for those examinations? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; we do not. We recommend somebody, if parents 
are not able to pay their family doctor. 

Mr. Whitley. Is the doctor to whom the applicants for the camps 
are sent paid by the bund ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. He is not paid by the bund. He is paid by the 
parents. 

Mr. Whitley. By the individuals who go to him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Whitley, call the witness' attention to the fore- 
word in the annual publication by Dr. Ross. 

Mr. Whitley. In your yearbook, Mr. Kuhn 

Mr. Kuhn. That is not my yearbook. 

Mr. Whitley. In the yearbook 

Mr. Kuhn. That is better. 

Mr. Whitley. For 1937. which purports at least to be the year- 
book for the German-American Bund 

Mr. Kuhn. It is not so. 

Mr. Whitley. You say it is not ; but Dr. Colin Ross has a page in 
there with a statement under the caption, "Unser America" 

Mr. Kuhn. That is out of his book — he wrote a book, Our America. 

Mr. Whitley. You have read his book, have you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Whitley. And you have only met him one time? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Does the German-American Bund in the United 
States have any contacts or any connections with members of any 
espionage service in this country? 

Mr. Kuhn. Certainly not. 

Mr. Whitley. None whatever. In other words, you have no con- 
tacts with any individuals who are, or might be, connected with 
espionage activities? 



3870 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Of course not. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the relation of the German-American: 
Bund with Dr. I. T. Griebl, who fled this country in connection with 
the recent prosecution of German spies in New York City? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, Dr. Griebl was not a member of the bund. 

Mr. W'hitley. He was not a member, but he was recognized and 
used by the bund as their official doctor in New York City, was he 
not? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You are personally acquainted with Dr. Griebl, are 
you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. I know him ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You have been to his office ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; I never was in his office. 

Mr. Whitley. You have never been in his office ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; never was. 

Mr. Whitley. Has he been in }'our office? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. He never has? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. He was a doctor, prior to the time he fled to avoid 
prosecution as a spy, who examined children for your camps, was 
he not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; he was not. 

Mr. Whitley. He was not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; he was not. 

Mr. Whitley. He was just a German doctor in New York City? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Reading from your official organ, the Weckruf, dated 
June 23, 1938, page 5, column 2, the article makes reference to Dr. 
I. T. Griebl, who was formerly active in a professional capacity for 
German- American clubs. The article states that Dr. Griebl's suc- 
cessor in that capacity will be Dr. A. K. Colbert. Would you like to 
explain that? 

Mr. Kuhn. He is the successor? 

Mr. Whitley. His successor in the capacity as the doctor for the 
German-American clubs — this is an announcement which appears in 
your official paper. 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not have anything to do with German-American 
clubs. Understand, he was successor in his office as doctor. 

Mr. Whitley. This Dr. Colbert ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Dr. Colbert ; yes ; successor in his office. 

Mr. Whitley. And Dr. Griebl did not represent or serve any mem- 
bers of the bund in a professional capacity as their doctor '. 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. If a member goes to him as a doctor, 
that is not my business. 

Mr. Whitley. But it was your business to run a notice in the 
paper as to who his successor was as the official representative, or as 
the professional representative, of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. He never was. That is not in the article. 

Mr. Whitley. I will have to get the exact quotation from the 
article. 

Mr. Kuhn. He never was a member of the bund, I told you. I 
saw the man once. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3871 

Mr. Whitley. I did not say he was a member of the bund. 

Mr. Kuhn. He never was a representative of the bund, or any- 
thing. 

Mr. Whitley. He was not their representative, but the bund used 
him as their doctor, and you know it. 

Mr. Kuhn. No; he did not, not officially. If somebody privately 
goes there, what can I help it? It is not my business. 

Mr. Whitley. You cannot help it, perhaps; but when he fled the 
country you announced who his successor would be, so that the 
members could go to the official successor. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is a paid advertisement, I suppose. 

Mr. Whitley. It is not an advertisement. It is an article appear- 
ing on page 5, column 2. 

Now, was Dr. Griebl ever connected, to your knowledge, with the 
Friends of New Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. He was an official of that organization, was he not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What was his capacity or his official position? 

Mr. Kuhn. So far as I know, he was once the president. 

Mr. Whitley. He was the president. And when the German- 
American Bund was organized, the Friends of New Germany was 
dissolved. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. And he did not continue on with the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Whitley. Is there any reason why he dropped his identifica- 
tion with the German organizations, his official identification? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. He never talked to me about it. 

Mr. Whitley. You had no idea what his capacity was in this 
country ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No: I said I met the man once on the street; never 
saw him in my office or his office. 

Mr. Whitley. You were surprised when you saw that he had fled 
the country to avoid prosecution? 

Mr. Kuhn. I was; absolutely. I was surprised. 

Mr. Starnes. You did not meet him at a national convention of 
the Friends of New Germany in Philadelphia in 1935? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; he was not there. I met him once before that in 
a convention in New York in 1934. 

Mr. St \rnes. He was not at the 1935 convention ? 

Mr. Kuhn. He was not there. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, was your national secretary, Mr. James 
Wheeler Hill, ever active in the German Intelligence Service? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. He was not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Whttley. Do you know whether he was ever attached to the 
general staff of the German Army? 

Mr. Kuhn. Certainly not ; I do not think so. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he. sometime subsequent to 
1926. was sent on an assignment to eastern Asia for the German 
Army in an intelligence capacity? 



3872 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. No; but I do not think so, because — I do not know 
anything about it. but the man is too young. In 1926 he was a 
young fellow. I do not think so. 

Mr. Whitley. I said ''subsequent to 1926." 

Mr. Kuhn. That is what I say. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what his relations were with Dr. 
Griebl? 

Mr. Kuhn. No: to my knowledge he did not have any connection 
at all. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether he was associated with 
Dr. Griebl or not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. This morning, Mr. Kuhn, we Mere identifying some 
agencies or organizations in Germany. I believe you have already. 
in response to the chairman's questions, identified the V. A. in 
Berlin, which is the league for Germans in foreign lands. Is that 
organization a private organization or is it an official organization of 
the Nazi Government? 

Mr. Kuhn. So far as I know, it is a private organization. 

Mr. Whitley. Just an independent, private organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; as stated by the chairman; it was founded 50 
years ago. 

Mr. Whitley. So that makes it a private organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, it was a private organization, to my knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. How about the Fichte Bund in Hamburg? Is that 
the organization that you said you had received some literature 
from ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I never received any literature personally. I do not 
know much about the Fichte Bund. I think it is a private or- 
ganization. 

Mr. Whitley. It has no official connection. You do know that it 
sends out literature and material to various countries of the world? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Enlightenment? 

Mr. Kuhn. I know they send some here. I do not know about 
the whole world. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether it performs the same 
functions so far as other countries are concerned? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know that. 

Mr. Whitley. What about the World Service? What type of 
organization is that? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is a news agency which sends out news, just 
like the Associated Press. 

Mr. Whitley. Just like the Associated Press? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. A private enterprise? 

Mr. Kuhn. A private enterprise. 

Mr. Wh 7 tley. Do you ever receive any literature from them? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. They send out weekly, or every 2 weeks, this 
material. 

Mr. Whitley. You published their material over a period of years 
in your publication, Weckruf. did you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Some of them, yes; because the news is about 20 pages, 
or something like that. 



CN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3873 

Mr. Whitley. It is just a private organization ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think so. 

Mr. Whitley. A news service. Now, how about the Ausland In- 
stitute or the Foreign Institute at Stuttgart. They are one and 
the same, are they not? 

Mr. Kuhn. What? 

Mr. Whitley. The Ausland Institute is the same as the Foreign 
Institute at Stuttgart; is it not? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think so; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the nature of that organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know the nature. 

Mr. Whitley. Nor any one connected with it? 

Mr. Kuhn. I am not connected with it. No one of my organ- 
ization is connected with it. 

Mr. AVhitley. Do you know any one connected with it? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know who are the officials of that organ- 
ization ( 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know about that? 

Mr. Stabnes. Did you not state this morning that Fritz Gissibl 
was connected with it? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; but he is not the head. 

Mr. Whitley. I did not ask you who the head was. Do you know- 
anyone connected with it ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Fritz Gissibil. 

Mr. Whitley. Who else do you know that is connected with it? 
Sometimes, when you have to remember, your memory is better. 

Mr. Kuhn. Can't you put your questions clearer? 

Mr. Whitley. That is perfectly clear; do you know anyone con- 
nected with the Foreign Institute at Stuttgart? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes: I said Mr. Gissibl. I used to know him. And 
if you say Mr. Moshack, I know him. 

Mr. Stabnes. The German Government supports that institution 
in part, does it not? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know ; you have to ask the German Govern- 
ment. I do not know who supports the German Government. 

Mr. Stabnes, Mr. Peter Gissibl testified 

Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Peter Gissibl is not responsible to me or to any- 
rT p f body else. I do not know what he says, if it is correct or not, If 
he knows it. he knows more than I do. 

Mr. Stabnes. At the time he testified before this committee, he 
was the bund leader of one of your bund units; was he not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Stabnes. And he testified that it was supported by Govern- 
ment funds, from the German Government. 

Mr. Kuhn. Then he knows more than I do. 

Mr. Stabnes. I am not surprised at that. 

Mr. Kuhn. There are a lot of people know more than you do; 
don't you think so? 

Mr. Stabnes. Do you know him? 
• Mr. Kuhn. Don't make such remarks to me. 

6 Mr. Stabnes. Do you know Hans Spanknoebel? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I used to know him. 



•w 



3874 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 



St. 



Mr. 

Mr. 

Mr. 

Mr. 

ooimeci 

Mr.i 

Mr.' 

MrJ 

Mr.l 

Mr.] 

1937. 

Mr. i 

Mr.I 

Mr, I 

MrJ 

MrJ 

Dttimt 

MrJ 

MrJ 

Mr. K 

MrJ 

Mr. K 



Mr. Starnes. When he was in this country, or when you were in 
Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I never saw him in Germany. 

Mr. Starnes. You knew him here? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. He was a former member of the Friends of New 
Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Starnes. Was he ever a member of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Never. 

Mr. Starnes. He never became an American citizen; did he? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know ; I do not think so. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know why he never did? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Was he identified with you and others in this "our 
battle'' movement in this country since 1932? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Neither was Fritz Gissibl? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. He was identified with "our battle" ? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. Was Dr. Griebl identified with your movement, "our 
battle," in this country? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; not in the bund. 

Mr. Starnes. He was in the Friends of New Germany and the head 
of it while that battle was going on in this country? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. Mr.ff 

Mr. Whitley. Can you identify these individuals for me? Hugo Mr.Ki 
Haas? Mr.W 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. Mr.Ki 

Mr. Whitley. Will you identify him, please ? 

Mr. Kuhn. He was once under the Friends of New Germany. He 
was the youth leader. Mr. E 

Mr. Whitley. Was he ever connected with the bund? Mr 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. When did he return to Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. He was gone when I came to New Mr. K 
York. Mr. } 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what official position he now occupies 
in Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Or what his connection is ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think he has a government position, but I do not 
know what he has there. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know Oscar Pfaus? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know him? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You never came in contact with him when he was in 
this country? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever come in contact with him in Ger- 
many ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I do not know his name at all. 



Mr. K r 

k 
Mr. If, 









I 



H- 



Gerl 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3875 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know what organization, if any, he is 
•connected with over there? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. What about Walter Kappe? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I know him. 

Mr. Whitley. What was his position in this country? Was he 
-connected with the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn". He was connected with a newspaper. 

Mr. Whitley. With a newspaper? 

Mr. Kuhn. With our newspaper. 

Mr. Whitley. Your newspaper? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. He was the editor until 1937, the beginning of 
1937. 

Mr. Whitley. He was the editor of Weckruf until 1937? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he return to Germany? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Does he have any position in Germany at the pres- 
ent time? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think so. 

Mr. Whitley. What is that ? Do you know ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Reinhold Walter? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he connected with the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not with the bund ; the Friends of New Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. In what capacity? 

Mr. Kuhn. He was once national chairman. 

Mr. Whitley. Is he in this country at the present time ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I cannot say that ; I think so. I met him by accident 
about 3 weeks ago. 

Mr. Whitley. In New York? 

Mr. Kuhn. In New York. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he has any official position 
■or connection with the German Government or any private agencies 
in that country? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know ; I do not think so. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn, reference was made this morning to 
short-wave radio broadcasts from Germany. Are those broadcasts 
which you advertise in your official organ, the Weckruf, under the 
caption ''Tune in Berlin" — are they private or commercial broad- 
casts, or are they officially sponsored by the German Government 
■or the Nazi government? 

Mr. Kuhx. I do not know that. 

Mr. Whitley. They may be either one so far as you are concerned ? 

Mr. Kuhx. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. They may be private? 

Mr. Kuhx. Would not make a difference to me. 

Mr. Whitley. How about phonograph records? There are quite 
;a few German phonograph records sold in the country. Are they 
put out by private concerns in Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhx. I do not know. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know about that? 






Mr. Kuhx. No: I do not know, 



3876 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether they are purely private 
or whether they are sponsored and put out by the German Govern- 
ment ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not. 

Mr. Whitley. I want to read a law which was passed in Ger- 
many since the advent of the Nazi government. 

Mr. Kuhn. Mi-. Chairman, do we have to go into the laws of 
Germany or are we in the United States? 

The Chairman. What is the pertinency of that, Mr. Whitley? 

Mr. Kuhn. Mr. Chairman, I ask you, please 

The Chairman. Let us find .out what the pertinency of this is first. 

Mr. Whitley. I want to show that every medium and agency of 
propaganda in Germany, by this proclamation or this law, comes 
under the Nazi government. 

Mr. Kuhn. Why don't you subpena the Nazi government? 

The Chairman. Counsel is not asking you about that. 

Mr. Whitley. I want to read this law 

Mr. Kuhn. If there are some records, what has that to do with 
un-American activities? If there are some German records here, 
you can buy them in any store. You would have to bring out a law 
that they cannot be sold. 

The Chairman. You are not being asked to comment on it. You 
want to introduce this for the record? 

Mr. Kuhn. I object to it. 

The Chairman. What is your objection? 

Mr. Kuhn. What has that to do with this? 

The Chairman. You have not anything to do with this. This is 
something independent of your testimony. 

Mr. Kuhn. My time is too valuable. I am not a Congressman. 

Mr. Whitley. It is very short, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Make it brief, so the witness will not lose any of 
his valuable time. 

Mr. Kuhn. I still object. 

Mr. Whitley. Incidentally, the original law, in German, is repro- 
duced opposite the English translation, in this volume that I have in Xhe Ci 
my hand. [Reading:] 



First decree concerning the law regarding the establishment of a Reich cham- 
ber of culture, November 1. 1933. 

Mr. Kuhn. Is that book in German? 

Mr. Whitley. The German is opposite the English translation. 
I am reading the translation and you can translate it yourself later, 
if you wish, to compare it. 

Air. Kuhn. I will. 

Mr. Whitley. The purpose of this is to show that every medium 
of propaganda ; newspaper, press, radio, phonograph records, in 
Germany, is under the control of the Government, so that anything 
that comes into this country, printed matter, short-wave-radio broad- 
casts, phonograph records, and so forth, has to be approved by the 
Government, and is officially under the 

Mr. Kuhn. I still object. 

The Chairman. Do you take issue with that? Do you say that 
is not true? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. I am in the United States. I will 
tell you why. The United States would have to forbid German 



Hied 
lb. 



Mr. R 

vi 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3877 

records to be sold. They are sold in every store. What has that 
to do with our bund ( You have to investigate us, not the records 
of Germany. I still object. That is why I need a lawyer. I do 
not know whether 1 have the right to object. 

The Chairman. This has not anything to do with your testimony. 
All counsel proposes to do is to read these laws of Germany. 

Mr. Kuhn. What has that to do with us ( 

Mr. Whitley. This is just a short page. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Krnx. 1 still object. 

Mr. Whitley (reading): 

First Decree Concerning the Law Regarding the Establishment of a Reich 
Chamber of Culturk, November 1, 1933 

On the basis of paragraphs and 7 of the law regarding the establishment 
of a Reich Chamber of Culture of the 22d of September 1933 ( Reich sgesetz- 
blatt I. p. GOT) the following decree is issued: 

1. Establishment of the chambers. 

Paragraph 1. Upon the issuance of this decree the following organizations 
receive the character of public corporations with the following names: 

1. The Reich Union of German Musicians, Inc.: Reich Chamber of Music. 

2. The Reich Union of Plastic Arts: Reich Chamber of the Plastic Arts. 

3. The Reich Chamber of the Theater : Reich Chamber of the Theater. 

4. The Reich League of German Authors, Inc. : Reich Chamber of Literature. 
You 5. The R-Mch Working Community of the German Press: The Reich Chamber 

of the Press. 

6. The National Socialist Chamber of the Broadcast, Inc. : The Reich Cham- 
ber of the Broadcast. 

Paragraph 2. The chambers enumerated in paragraph 1 together with the 
Reich Chamber of the Film are united in one public corporation which is 
called the Reich Chamber of Culture. 

There is the original German reproduced opposite the English 
translation, so that any one who wants may compare it. 

The Chairman. So that ail of these organizations, concerning 
which we have had correspondence between them and the Chicago 
post of the bund are really agencies of the German Government and 
not private institutions? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is not so. 

The Chairman. That is not true ( 

Mr. Kuhn. It is not true. 

The Chairman. Tell us what the truth is. 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know anything, but the committee has not 
proved that. You have to prove it yet. 

Air. Whitley. I read the law. The law places all of those agencies 
under the Government. „♦ 

Mr. Kuhn. So far as radio is concerned, and the records arfe 
concerned. May I make one suggestion? Why don't we try and 
pass a law in the Congress that the German Government should 
change their laws? 

The Chairman. You are proposing that that be done in the United 
States? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; because we are dealing here about things which 
concern us. I have not any influence with what kind of laws they 
pass there. It is none of my business. I am here in the United 
States. 

Mr. Whitlev. Mr. Chairman, let me read just a little further from 
this same law. 

940?,1— 30— vol. 6 12 



tx 



3878 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. I still object. 

Mr. Whitley. This is section No. 3. 

The task of the Reich Chamber of Culture is to promote German culture 
with responsibility for the nation and the Reich. It must regulate the economic 
and social affairs of the cultural professions and coordinate the endeavors of 
the affiliated groups. This is to be done in cooperation with the members of 
all active brandies embraced by it, under the leadership of the Reich Minister 
for Popular Enlightenment and Propaganda. 

Anyone who participates in any of those activities must come 
under the Minister of Enlightenment and Propaganda and within the 
meaning of this decree printing includes any sort of reproduction, 
any sort of printed matter. 

Whoever participates in production, reproduction, mental or technical elabora- 
tion, dissemination, preservation, sale or furtherance of the sale of a cultural 
product, must be a member of a branch of the Reich Chamber which has juris- 
diction over his activity. 

Under No. 7 we find this : 

Within the meaning of this decree, printing includes any sort of reproduction 
according to paragraph 2, No. 2 of the law regarding editors. 

On page 13 there are the instructions to German educators going 
abroad, issued by the Minister of Science and Education : 

Every scientist, etc., who has made a lecture tour or study trip abroad, must 
submit a report of his trip together with two copies, to be kept in the files of 
the respective faculty or institution. I reserve the right to ask for these re- 
ports. Reports which contain important political or politico-cultural observa- 
tions or suggestions must be sent to me immediately without special request. 

That is from the Deutsche Wissenschaft, Erziehung und Volksbilj 
dung, Berlin, April 20, 1937, No. 8, p. 184. 

As I have said, the original German, from which this is a trans- 
lation, is to be found in this volume. 

Now, there is a law having to do with foreign travel by university 
teachers and students. It reads : 

It has frequently been observed of late that Germans and especially professors 
and students, when traveling abroad for cultural or scientific purposes, have 
failed to establish contact with their local national official representatives. 

Who would those be, Mr. Kuhn ? 
Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. 
Mr. Whitley (reading) : 

Such contact is especially important in countries where Jewry occupies a 
predominant influence in cultural affairs, and where emigrants seek to press 
into the foreground in questions concerning German cultural life. In these 
countries it is particularly necessary that German national guests, local or 
official, shall be informed of these local relationships by the official national 
representatives abroad. 

Reference is made here to the foreign organization of the Nazi 
Party. Is the bund a member of, or connected w 7 ith, that foreign 
organization ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I said no, before. 

Mr. Whitley. It is not? 

Mi-. Kuhn. You asked me that before. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever participated in any of the congresses 
which are held annually for Germans living abroad? 

Mr. Kuhn. Never. 

Mr. Whitley. You have never participated in those? 



i 



i 



QN-AMERIGAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3879 

.Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever been present when one of those was 
in progress? 

Mi. Kuhn. Where, what? 

Mr. Whitley. I will look that up, in just a minute. 

Mr. Thomas. While he is looking that up, Mr. Kuhn, I want to 
ask you a question. Are you acquainted with Frederick Franklin 
Schrader ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I know a Schrader. I do not know his first name. 

Mr. Thomas. In New York City? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Frederick Franklin Schrader? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Are you acquainted with him? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes: if that is the Schrader I think; I do not know 
his first name. 

Mr. Thomas. How old a man is he, approximately? I am just 
trying to find out if he is the same person. 

Mr. Kuhn. High in the seventies, might be around 80. 

Mr. Thomas. Is he a member of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; is that the one you mean ? 

Mr. Thomas. Yes; do you know what his business is in New York? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know his business. I know he writes a few 
articles for us once in a while. 

Mr. Thomas. For you? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether he is in the publicity busi- 
ness ? 

Mr. Kuhn. He gets paid for that, for what he does. Outside of 
that. I do not know. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether he represents the German 
Government in this country? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no; I do not know. He does not. 

Mr. Thomas. You are certain he writes articles? 

Mr. Kuhn. He writes articles; yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know of any other articles he has written 
than articles he has written for you? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know. 

Mr. Thomas. I want to ask just one more question, Mr. Chairman. 
Could you give me the address of the bund headquarters in Passaic, 
N. J. ? You said you had a unit in Passaic. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes: I do not know the address. I can supply you 
that. 

Mr. Thomas. That is all. 

Air. Starnes. Who was the national president of the Friends of 
New Germany in 1932? 

Mr. Kuhn. There was not any to my knowledge, Friends of New 
Germany, in 1932. 

Mr. Starnes. When was it organized? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know exactly. 

Mr. Starnes. In 1933. who was the national leader of it in this 
country ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think Fritz Gissibl. 






w 



3880 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. He was the first one, was he not? That is correct 
is it not ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Then it was Reinhold Walter. 

Mr. Starnes Where is he now? 

Mr. Kuhn. In New York. That is the man just mentioned. 

Mr. Starnes. Then you had Spanknoebel. He was the head of 
it in what year? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not think he was the head of it. He was depart- 
mental leader, if I am right. I was in Detroit at that time, I do not 
know exactly. 

Mr. Starnes. When was Dr. Griebl the head of it \ 

Mr. Kuhn. Dr. Griebl was in 1934 for a very short period. 

Mr. Starnes. Who was the president, who was the national leader 
of it, the last leader, in 1934? 

Mr. Kuhn. Dr. Shnook. 

Mr. Starnes. Where is Dr. Shnook? 

Mr. Kuhn. I think he is in Chicago. 

Mr. Starnes. So of the three national leaders of the Friends of 
New Germany, in 1933, 1934, and 1935, one was Fritz Gissibl. 

Mr. Kuhn. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. And the other was Dr. Griebl ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And the other was Dr. Shnook? 

Mr. Kuhn. And Reinhold Walter. 

Mr. Starnes. And Reinhold Walter ; yes. There were four heads 
of the organization. Two of them never did become American citi- 
zens; that is Griebl and Gissibl. is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know if Griebl did. 

Mr. Starnes. They left this country, did they not \ 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Dr. Griebl left in connection with the spy story that 
broke at that time? 

Mr. Kuhn. I suppose so. 

Mr. Starnes. And Gissibl was recalled to Germany and works 
there? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know he was recalled. 

Mr. Starnes. He went back to Germany anyway. 

Mr. Kuhn. He went back. 

Mr. Starnes. And he works at this Ausland Institute. By the way, 
do you know the German Ambassador, Hans Dieckhoff I 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. I know him. 

Mr. Starnes. You had some conferences with him, in December 
1938 and January 1939, have you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I had no conferences with him at all. 

Mr. Starnes. None whatsoever? 

Mr. Kuhn. None. I met him once socially. 

Mr. Starnes. Where? 

Mr. Kuhn. After the German Dav in 1936. I think he spoke 
there. 

Mi-. Starnes. Where? 

Mr. Kuhn. In Madison Square Garden. 

Mr. Starnes. At Buffalo? 

Mr. Kuhn. Madison Square Garden is in New York. 

Mr. Starnes. In the year 1936? 



''oily 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3881 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I think so. 

Mr. Starnes. Aiul you did not see him in New York City in 
December L938 nor in January 1939? 
Mr. Kuhn. No; I did not. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know the German consul in New York City? 
head i 



epan 

[ (In r.r 



Mr. Kuhn. There are a few of them, which one? 
Mr. Stabnes. Do you know the one named Borgers? 
Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 



ends 



Mr. Starnes. Did you have any conferences with him in December 
1938 or January 1939 \ 

Mr. Kuhn. 1 had no conferences at all. 

Mr. Starnes. Were you ever present at a meeting between the 
German Ambassador, Hans Dieckhoff, and Mr. Borgers? 

Mr. Kuhn. Never. 

Mr. Starnes. Not at any time? 

Mr. Kuhn. Never at any time. 

Mr. Starnes. You are a chemical engineer? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have any connection, official or unofficial, 
with any chemical laboratories; located either in Chicago or in the 
State of New Jersey? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Or in the State of West Virginia? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you ever worked for any laboratories or tor 
any concerns that maintain laboratories in the city of Chicago? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Nor in the State of New Jersey? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Nor in the State of West Virginia? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Not at any time? 

Mr. Kuhn. In these three States you just mentioned. 

Mr. Starnes. By the way, have you ever worked with any or- 
ganization that maintained any chemical laboratories in this country? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. What companies? 

Mr. Kuhn. Ford Motor Co. 

Mr. Starnes. Any other? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. None whatsoever? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. You have a local bund unit — several of them; I be- 
lieve you said five, in New York Citv. is that right? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And you have one in Brooklyn? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Two in Brooklyn? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes: one is in South Brooklyn, Ridsewood. 

Mr. Starnes. Then you have one at Newark, N. J. ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Bronx. N. Y. : Manhattan. Astoria, Staten Island. 

Mr. Starnes. You have one at Schenectady? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 



iiv tkl 



liewai 



3882 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. You have some five or six in the State of Connecti- 
cut ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. You have one near Waterbury or in Waterbury ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Newberry, not Waterbury. 

Mr. Starnes. Newberry? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you have one in Watertown, N. Y., or any-] 
where near Watertown? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. You have one in Baltimore? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. You have two in Philadelphia \ 

Mr. Kuhn. One. 

Mr. Starnes. One in Philadelphia. You have one in Boston? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Is Springfield located near Boston — Springfield, 
Mass. ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I do not know how far it is away, about 60 miles. 

Mr. Starnes. You do not have one at Waterbury, Conn., you say ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Has that one gone out of existence? It was pub- 
lished in this yearbook of 1937 as being at Waterbury, Conn. 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is not in existence any more. 

Mr. Starnes. That is not in existence any more. You have one 
in Buffalo? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Starnes. That is where your organization originally started, | 
your national organization? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. You have one in Cleveland, Ohio? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. You have one in Dayton, Ohio? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And at Detroit, Mich. ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And at Gary, Ind.? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starne*. And at Hammond, Ind.? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. On the west coast, you have one at Los Angeles '. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And one at San Diego? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct. 

Mr. Starnes. And one at San Francisco? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And one at Seattle? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And you have one at Portland? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. The greatest portion of your membership is in New 
York, is it not? 

Mr. Kuhn. In the East; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. How many would you say? 



life. 



QN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3883 

Mr. Kuhn. 1 don't know. I never figured that out. 

Mr. Starnes. Can yon make a rough estimate, Mr. Kuhn? 

Mr. Kuhn. I would say about 40 percent. 

Mr. Starnes. About 40 percent in New York State? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; figuring New Jersey. 

Mr. Starnes. Is (here any significance in locating these folks that 
are units, or whatever you call them? Is there one in Baltimore? 

Mr. Kuhn. They have one in Baltimore; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And in Brooklyn and South Brooklyn? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you any in the State of Virginia? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. What place? 

Mr. Kuhn. Wheeling, W. Va. 

Mr. Starnes. West Virginia ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; and Richmond, Va. 

Mr. Starnes. You have one at San Antonio, Tex., have you not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Right. 

Mr. Starnes. Who is the leader of that one at San Antonio? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't recall. I told you I would give you a list. 

Air. Starnes. It is Carl Beavers, is it not? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Has he ever been the leader there? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Just to enlighten me, will you refresh your memory 
now and tell me who is the leader of the unit at Birmingham? 

Mr. Kuhn. I can't recall it. I told you I would give you a list. 
<mteii|(Isn't that enough? 

Mr. Starnes. You say there is one at Birmingham? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And one at Miami, Fla.? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And one at Memphis, Tenn.? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And one at Albuquerque? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Starnes. How long has that one been at Albuquerque? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh. 6 or 7 months. 

Mr. Starnes. How many organizers do you have? 

Mr. Kuhn. Organizers? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. Kuhn. We have one organizer. 

Mr. Starnes. Who is that, Mr. Kuhn? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is Mr. Elmer. 

Mr. Starnes. Does he work without a salary ? 

Mr. Kuhn. He works without a salary. 

Mr. Starnes. He gets his traveling expenses? 

Mr. Kuhn. His traveling expenses; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have your traveling expenses paid? 

Mr. Kuhn. If I am going outside New York ; yes. 
\> Mr. Starnes. Do you have a reerular expense account set up in 
your national budget for your office? 

Mr. Kuhn. We have our special account for traveling expenses. 



3884 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. Can you give us an estimate of what your traveling 
expense amounts to for a year? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I cannot, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Would it be as much as $10,000? 

Mr. Kuhn. Oh, no. 

Mr. Starnes. As much as five thousand ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't think so ; no. 

Mr. Starnes. What is the largest expense you have in your national 
budget other than your salary and those of the other two officials? 

Mr. Kuhn. Office expenses and general expenses, and binding, and 
presentation. 

Mr. Starnes. You say there is no particular significance in the 
location of the bund units that I called a moment ago? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; there is not ; not for me. 

Mr. Starnes. Not for you. How many camps do you have \ 

Mr. Kuhn. Which we own or which we have rented ? 

Mr. Starnes. Both. Give us the owned camps first. 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know exactly. Altogether we have around 20. 

Mr. Starnes. Tell us where they are located. Give us your best 
recollection. 

Mr. Kuhn. There is one in Long Island : there is one in New Jer- 
sey ; there is one in Connecticut ; there is another one in the State of 
New York ; there is another one in the State of New York 

Mr. Starnes. How many in New York ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Three. There is one in Pennsylvania, there is one in 
Michigan, there is one in Ohio, there is one in Indiana ; there is one in 
Wisconsin, there is one in Missouri. 

Mr. Starnes. Near St. Louis ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. There is one in Los Angeles, there is one between 
San Francisco and Petaluma. 

Mr. Starnes. All these that you are naming now are those which 
you owm ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; I did not say that. You said altogether. 

Mr. Starnes. I am talking about those that the bund owns. 

Mr. Kuhn. The bund don't own anything. 

Mr. Starnes. What does own anything? 

Mr. Kuhn. Each camp is the owner. 

Mr. Starnes. Do they make any reports other than those required 
by the laws of the State ? 

Mr. Kuhn. They have to, because they are registered by the Secre- 
tary of State. 

Mr. Mason. Is there one in Illinois, outside of Chicago? 

Mr. Kuhn. No; there is one close to Chicago, but it i> light over the 
border line in Michigan. 

The Chairman. Do you have any further questions, Mr. Whitley? 

Mr. Whitley. I have a few. 

Mr. Kuhn, does (he German-American Bund or the Nazi govern- 
ment, or any agency of the Nazi government pay the expenses, or part 
of the expenses, of members of the bund, or of the youth movement, 
to Germany for the purpose of giving them instruction and training 
as propagandists? 

Mr. Kuhn. Well, that is a long question. Make your questions short, 
and I will make mv answers short. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3885 

Mr. AYihtley. All right. Has the German-American Bund ever 
paid the expenses, or part of the expenses, of members to go to Ger- 
many for training purposes? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not for training purposes. 

Mr. Whitley. What have they paid the expenses of their mem- 
bers for \ 

Mr. Kuhn. The hiind has never paid anything except for private 
individuals. 

Mr. Whitley. Yon mean private members have gone over there on 
visit.-, but paid their own expenses? 

Mr. Kuhn. Of course. 

Mr. Whitley. But the bund has never assisted any members of its 
youth movement to go over to Germany for training purposes? 

Mr. Kuhn. Correct . 

Mr. Whitley. Has the Nazi government ever defrayed the ex- 
penses of anybody to go over there for training purposes? 

Mr. Kuhn. No, sir: either for training purposes or any. 

Mr. Whitley. And the bund lias never defrayed the expenses of 
anybody to go over there? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

'^ r Mr. Whitley. You referred yesterday, Mr. Kuhn, to various in- 
dividuals and organizations with which the bund has been in con- 
tact, or with which it has cooperated, at least to the extent of ex- 
changing speakers and exchanging literature. Has your organiza- 
tion ever made any contact or association with Ukranian groups? 

Mr. Kuhn. Ukranians were at one of our meetings in Chicago, 
and in Xew York. Once I was in Chicago at a meeting in a park 
and there were Ukranians there. I think the park belongs to 
Ukranians. 

Mr. Whitley. What Ukranian organization is that? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't recall the name. 

Mr. Whitley. It is an organization, though? 

Mr. Kuhn. It is an organization; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And your organization, or various units, have co- 
operated with Ukranians in meetings or by exchanging halls, and 
things of that kind I 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know about cooperation. 

Mr. Whitley. It is cooperation, for instance, if you exchange halls. 

Mr. Kuhn. If you call that cooperation, that has been done. 

Mr. Whitley. And von have had them to your meetings in New 
York ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Y"es. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, that is cooperation, is it not? 

Mr. Kuhn. Sure. 

Mr. Whitley. I mean it shows a kindly feeling, at least? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. A feeling of cooperation. 

Mr. Kuhn. We have Communists in our meetings, too. 
| ve ,iJt»:: Mr. Whitley. You did not invite them, though? 

Mr. Kuhx. No : I did not invite them. 

Mr. Whitley. How about the Hungarian groups? Have you had 
nsslmiH an y cooperation with them? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 



I 

Ik' 

4 









3886 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 



Mr. Whitley. None whatever, to your knowledge ? 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Yesterday you named various individuals who had 
spoken at your meetings, or whom you had invited to speak, over 
a period of time. I believe you had invited Father Coughlin to 
speak before the bund ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Where was that? 

Mr. Kuhn. Madison Square Garden. 

Mr. Whitley. How did vou invite him; by letter or personally? 

Mr. Kuhn. By letter. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he decline? 

Mr. Kuhn. He answered that he can't speak. 

Mr. Whitley. He answered that he could not speak? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And I believe you also said you invited Mr. Pelley 
to speak at that gathering. 

Mr. Kuhn. I did not say that. I said we invited him. I am not 
sure whether we collectively invited him to speak, or just invited 
him. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe you said yesterday that you invited Mr. 
Edmondson to speak. 

Mr. Kuhn. To speak ? I don't know. We invited him ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Who else did you invite to speak at that meeting 
besides the ones I have named? 

Mr. Kuhn. General Moseley. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he decline? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he state any reason? 

Mr. Kuhn. He said he could not do it at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. What were Father Coughlin's reasons for declin- 
ing? 

Mr. Kuhn. He don't speak in public meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that the only occasion when you invited him 
to speak at a bund meeting? 

Mr. Kuhn. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. That was the only occasion when the national head- 
quarters invited him to speak? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Right in that connection, did you extend any invi- 
tation to the American Fascist ? 

Mr. Kuhn. The American Fascist ? No. 

The Chairman. I mean an organization which styles itself th 
American Fascist. 

Mr. Kuhn. No. 

The Chairman. Do you know F. P. Castorino? 

Mr. Kuhn. Castorino? I don't recall the name. It is an Italian 
name. I might know him if I saw the man. 

The Chairman. V. A. Petty? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't recall the name. 

The Chairman. Giannotta — G-i-a-n-n-o-t-t-a? 

Mr. Kuhn. Giannotta? No: I don't know the name at all. 

The Chaihman. Well, vou did know Carl Poppo Nicolai, did you 
not? 



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UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3887 

Mr. Kuiin. Oh, 3 7 es. 

The Chairman. Who was he? 

Mr. Kuhn. You mean his official position in the bund? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Kuhn. He was the local unit leader of Oakland. 

The Chairman. Is he with the bund now ? 

Mr. Kuhn. He is with the bund now; yes. 

The Chairman. He is no longer the local leader? 

Mr. Kuhn. He is not local leader; no. 

The Chairman. What has been your relationship with him; has it 
been friendly? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; I think so. 

The Chairman. You are still pretty good friends? 

Mr. Kuhn. Not officially, but 

The Chairman. About 40 percent of your members, you said, 
were people not of German extraction? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. That includes people of different extractions? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Some Irish? 

Mr. Kuhn. Irish; lots of them Irish. 

The Chairman. And some Italians? 

Mr. Kuhn. Very few. 

The Chairman. Some Ukrainians? 

Mr. Kuhn. Very few. 

The Chairman! And some Hungarians. What is the greatest 
percentage? 

Mr. Kuhn. Irish. 

The Chairman. Of the 40 percent, then, you would say that 90 per- 
cent are Irish? 

Mr. Kuhn. Out of this 40 percent, about 90 percent. 

The Chairman. Where are thev located mostly : around New York 
Citv? 

Mr. Kuhn. Everywhere. 

The Chairman. On July 12, 1938. at a meeting in — or let me ask 
you this question : Was a power of attorney ever given and turned 
over to you to take over the German- American Bund ? Did you ever 
get a power of attorney? 

Mr. Kuhn. At the national convention; yes. 

The Chairman. The national convention gave you a power of 
attorney. Did you ever get a power of attorney turning over Camp 
Sip<rfried to you? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes: I got a power of attorney from the Settlement 
League: not from the bund, because it belongs to the Settlement 
League. 

The Chairman. What was the purpose in giving you the power of 
attorney? 

Mr. Kuhn. As a director: because the members saw fit. 

The Chairman. Thev iust saw fit to give you a power of attorney 
to handle the whole affair. 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman: Was Nicholai made secretary at that time? 

Mr. Kuhn. No ; hp was secretary up to that time. 

The Chairman. Was he in charge of the women's auxiliary? 



J 






3888 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kuhn. Eight. 

The Chairman. Was he also director of the national speakers? 
bureau of the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Where is Carl Nicholai now? 

Mr. Kuhn. He is in Germany now. 

The Chairman. How long has he been in Germany ? 

Mr. Kuhn. About 5 or 6 weeks or 2 months; I don't know exactly! 

The Chairman. Do you know why he went to Germany \ 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes. 

The Chairman. Why? 

Mr. Kuhn. Just what he told me. He has still some property 
there which he has to take care of. 

The Chairman. How many members of your bund that you know 
of are in Germany at the present time ? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know. You mean as visitors? 

The Chairman. As visitors; yes. 

Mr. Kuhn. Or with estates there? 

The Chairman. As visitors. 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know how many more ; very few. 

The Chairman. Do you know Edwin Westphale, one of the bund 
speakers ? 

Mr. Kuhn. Westphale? Westphal : yes. Do you mean Westphal? 

The Chairman. Westphal; yes. Where does he live? 

Mr. Kuhn. I don't know where lie lives. 

The Chairman. Is he one of the speakers for the bund? 

Mr. Kuhn. He spoke a few times. I think lie speaks for some 
organization, too. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have a meeting with Mr. Westphal a few 
weeks ago, on a Saturday night '. 

Mr. Kuhn. A meeting? 

Mr. Whitley. Did you meet him at the Appling Casino in New 
York? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes; there was a meeting at Appling Casino, but 1 
do not think he was there. 

Mr. Whitley. Who else was there? 

Mr. Kuhn. I was the main speaker, and Mr. Kunze was a speaker, 
and then came Mr. Williams, from the Mobilizer. 

Mr. Whitley. That was a meeting of the Christian Mobilizers? 

Mr. Kuhn. No: that was a meeting of the bund. 

Mr. Whitley. Were the Christian Mobilizers there? 

Mr. Kuhn. Some of them were there, I suppose. T hope all of 
them were there. Mr. Williams spoke there. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you speak? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes, I spoke too. 

Mr. Whitley. That was just another one of those meetings when 
there were various representatives of organizations present? 

Mr. Kuhn. Yes ; it was just one of those meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. And you referred to a number of others in yoi 
previous testimony. 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions, gentlemen? 

(There were no questions.) 






Ill faff 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3889 

The Chairman. The committee will stand adjourned until tomor- 
row morning at 10 o'clock, at which time another witness will be 
heard. 

Mr. Kuhn. Am I released? 

The Chairman. You are released; yes. 

Mx. Kuhn. Then 1 don't have to come any more? 

The Chairman. No. 

Mr. Kuhn. It is a pleasure, gentlemen. 

The Chairman. I might say that it will be the policy of the 
committee not to release the name of any witness until he appears 
on the stand. 

(Thereupon the committee adjourned until tomorrow, Friday, Au- 
gust 18, 1939, at 10 a. m.) 



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INVESTIGATION CF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



FRIDAY, AUGUST 18, 1939 

House of Representatives, 
Special Committee to Investigate 

Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. C. 
The committee met at 10 a. m., in the caucus room, House Office 
Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding. 
Present : Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee. 
The Chairman. Will the committee come to order? The Chair 
has a suggestion to offer. The Chair suggests — and I think this is 
the sense of the committee — that in the conduct of the investiga- 
tion we undertake to confine ourselves to material matters and avoid 
; any immaterial or inconsequential matter that has no particular rele- 
vancy or, even if it has, does not add any light to the investigation. 
And, if we can, when a member has a question to address to a wit- 
ness, let the Chair suggest that the member first address himself to 
the Chair and make known the fact he wants to ask a question, so 
that we can proceed as orderly as possible. 

Again, the Chair wants to caution against these voluntary state- 
ments. It is a difficult matter to handle; but, at the same time, no 
witness will be permitted to make a voluntary statement and, where 
it is discovered, from now on it will be stricken from the record. 
Does the committee approve of that procedure? 
Mr. Mason. Absolutely. 

TESTIMONY OF MISS HELEN VOOROS, BROOKLYN, N. Y. 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
The Chairman. Now, Miss Vooros, will you make your answers 
responsive to the questions asked by counsel, listening to the question, 
\ and then answer the particular question he asks, and speak as loudly 
I and distinctly as you can, because it is rather difficult to hear in this 

(room; the acoustics are not very good, and we would like to hear 
your testimony. 
And may I ask the audience to observe absolute quiet, please, and 
no whispering or conversation to go on while the hearing is in 
. progress, because sometimes we cannot hear what the witness says, 
' and some remark escapes our attention that we want to hear. 
All right, Mr. Whitley. 
Mr. Whitley. What is your full name? 
Miss Vooros. Helen Vooros. 
Mr. Whitley. What is your present address, Miss Vooros? 






3891 



3892 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Vooros. 390 Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn, N. Y. 

Mr. Whitley. Where were you born? 

Miss Vooros. Gorlitz, Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. When were you born, Miss Vooros? 

Miss Vooros. 1920; May 11. 

Mr. Whitley. That means you are 19 years old? 

Miss Vooros. Nineteen. 

Mr. Whitley. Where were you educated? 

Miss Vooros. New York. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you married or single? 

Miss Vooros. Single. 

Mr. Whitley. When did you come to the United States? 

Miss Vooros. I came to the- United States in 1926. 

Mr. Whitley. Where did you enter the United States? 

Miss Vooros. New York. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you a citizen of the United States? 

Miss Vooros. I am. 

Mr. Whitley. Miss Vooros, have you ever been a member of the 
German-American Bund or any of its allied organizations? 

Miss Vooros. I became a member of the bund in May 1937. 

Mr. Whitley. May 1937? 

Miss Vooros. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. And where did you join? 

Miss Vooros. I joined the South Brooklyn division. 

Mr. Whitley. South Brooklyn? 

Miss Vooros. Division. 

Mr. Whitley. And what branch or group of the bund did you 
join ? 

Miss Vooros. The Youth Movement. 

Mr. Whitley. You joined the Youth Movement? 

Miss Vooros. I did. 

Mr. Whitley. Had you been interested in the bund or, prior to 
your joining, had anyone particularly tried to persuade you, or to 
interest you, in joining? 

Miss Vooros. A friend of mine recommended it to me because of 
the social activities that were going on, but they did not tell me 
it was an arm of the Nazi organization. I found that out later. 

Mr. Whitley. They merely presented it as an American group? 

Miss Vooros. A group of girls; they did not specify what it was. 

Mr. Whitley. And after joining the organization in May 1937, 
did you Toecome active in its activities? 

Miss Vooros. No; not immediately. I joined in May and, in 
August, the leader of that South Brooklyn division died and I was 
the next one up for leadership and they recommended me. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Do you have your membership book? 

Miss Vooros. I have. My counsel has it. 

Mr. Whitley. Can we 'get that book, Miss Vooros? [After a 
pause:! We will have the book in just a moment, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Wait and get the book before you proceed, so that 
we can introduce it. 

Miss Vooros. You want the book? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Miss Vooros. This is it [passing to Mr. Whitley]. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3893 

Mr. "Whitley. This is your membership book in the Youth Move- 
ment of the German-American Bund? 

Miss Vooros. It is. 

Mr. Whitley. It is book No. 412? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. In the name of Helen Vooros? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I would like to introduce that in the record, Mr. 
Chairman. 

(The paper referred to was filed with the committee.) 

Mr. Whitley. Who is that book signed by, Miss Vooros? 

Miss Vooros. By the youth leader, at that time Theodore Dinke- 
1 acker. 

Mr. Whitley. At that time he was national youth leader of the 
•German-American Bund ? 

Miss Vooros. He was. 

Mr. Whitley. After you became active in the affairs of the Youth 
Movement in south Brooklyn, will you describe for the committee, 
Miss Vooros, the procedure that was followed as to meetings and 
instructions, and so forth? 

Miss Vooros. Well, I came there once or twice and they did not say 
much and they made a very good impression on me, and the third 
time I came there they said I needed a uniform, and that consisted of 
a blue skirt, white blouse, brown tie, victory sign — the iron victory 
sign — and the number 12 on the uniform. That cost me $11. 

The Chairman. Where did you buy it ? Will you tell us where you 
got it — who recommended it? 

Miss Vooros. Well, the leader of the group, Tillie Koch, supplied 
each girl with the uniform. 

The Chairman. You paid the money to her? 

Miss Vooros. I paid the money to her. 

The Chairman. Proceed. 

Miss Vooros. Another thing, we were made aware of the fact we 
were only to speak German in the group and, if a girl was found 
speaking English, she was fined 1 or 2 cents. That was a strict order. 

Well, the procedure of the meetings was when we came in we sang 
the German song Forward; Forward. 

The Chairman. When you came in the meeting, you sang the 
German song Forward; Forward? 

Miss Vooros. That is right. And we gave the Nazi salute. 

The Chairman. What was the Nazi salute that you gave; will you 
show the committee ? 

Miss Vooros. (Raises and extends right arm.) And we sat down; 
some of the girls had some embroidery work, and we did that for 
half an hour, and then sang songs, German songs, for about three- 
quarters of an hour. Then we had our discussions, political .discus- 
sions ; we had to know the life of Adolf Hitler ; that was one thing 
we were compelled to know. 

The Chairman. How were you to learn the life of Adolf Hitler? 

Miss Vooros. We were given pamphlets. 

The Chairman. Where were the pamphlets printed? 

Miss Vooros. At that time I didn't know where they were printed, 
but they came from Germany. 

94931—39 — vol. 6 13 



3894 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. The pamphlets came from Germany? 

M'ss Vooros. They did. 

The Chairman. And they told the life of Adolf Hitler? 

Miss Vooros. Of Adolf Hitler. 

The Chairman. And it was necessary for you to learn the con- 
tents of those pamphlets? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. Were you questioned later about it? 

Miss Vooros. We were given examinations on it. 

The Chairman. All right; proceed. 

Mr. Whitley. How often did you have those meetings, Miss 
Vooros ? 

Miss Vooros. We had them once every Saturday. 

Mr. Wh.tlet. Every Saturday? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And how many girls were there in your particular 
group ? 

Miss Vooros. When I was there, there were 17. 

Mr. Whitley. Seventeen girls? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And that was the south Brooklyn group? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; that was. 

Mr. Whitley. Now will you continue with your description of 
the various procedures followed at meetings? 

Miss Vooros. I will. And then we had to know the life of Horst 
Wessel. 

The Chairman. You had to know the life of whom ? 

Miss Vooros. Horst Wessel, a prominent leader in the Nazi Party;: 
then Herbert Norkus. 

The Chairman. How did you get his life; did you get pamphlets? 

Miss Vooros. We got pamphlets. 

The Chairman. From Germany? 

Miss Vooros. From Germany; yes. 

The Chairman. That told his life ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. You had to learn his life, too? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. Who were the others? 

Miss Vooros. The most important was the life of Herbert Norkus. 

The Chairman. Who was he? 

Miss Vooros. He was one of the boys that was very active in the 
Youth Movement in Germany and was shot by Communists, and 
the other boy was a Hitler youth, Quex. Well, his story is the same 
as the other one, but it was important that we know them. 

Mr. Whitley. It was a kind of party order? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; that is it. 

Mr. Whitley. He was a hero? 

Miss Vocros. Yes; a hero. 

Mr. Whitley. And you had to study the lives of all those that 
are prominent officials or heroes in the Nazi movement? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; we did. 

Mr. Whitley. And you got it from the pamphlets, which you 
later learned 

Miss Vooros. Came from Germany. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3895 

Mr. AVhitley. Came from Germany? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. At that time, you did not know that? 

Miss Vooros. I didn't know that. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you follow any other procedure at those weekly 
meetings ? 

Miss Vooros. Well, we had these hikes. 

The Chairman. You had what? 

Miss Vooros. Hikes, and once a month Mr. Dinkelaeker would 
take us on night marches. I never went with him. They would 
either take place on Staten Island, or New Jersey, and then they 
would build a big fire. It is strictly according to German tradition, 
once a month, that they build a big fire on a mountain, or what looks 
like a mountain, and then sing German songs around the fire. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, before the witness gets into the night 
marches, I would like to ask a question following up another point. 

The Chairman. All right ; but let us stick as closely as we can to 
what has already been testified. 

Mr. Thomas. I want to ask you a question in regard to lessons. 
Were you taught anything relative to American history? 

Miss Vooros. Nothing of that. 

Mr. Thomas. Everything you were taught in those classes had to 
do with German characters; is that right? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; that is correct. 

The Chairman. Now, before we get to the night marches, develop 
exactly what was studied so that w T e can stay on one thing and de- 
velop it before we go to another. Now let us develop exactly what 
was taught in camp. 

Mr. Whitley. Were there any other subjects that were taught dur- 
ing those weekly meetings, Miss Vooros ? 

Miss Vooros. Well, we all sang ; we had to know German songs. 

Mr. Whitley. What were some of those songs? 

Miss Vooros. Well, we had to know the German song, the national 
anthem, and the song that comes after that of Horst Wessel. 

Mr. Whitley. The Horst Wessel song? 

Miss Vooros. The Horst Wessel song; yes; that is one thing we 
had to know; and two or three times a month we would be given 
a piece of paper and had to write the song down; and according to 
that, we would be marked. 

Mr. Whitney. Did they teach you any American song? 

Miss Vooros. None. 

Mr. Whitley. None at all? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Was there any other instruction of any kind that 
you received at the Youth Movement? 

Miss Vooros. No; but we were given a list of addresses; and in 
our spare time, we had to go and visit people and see if we could 
obtain more members for the organization. 

Mr. Whitley. Were those people living in the vicinity with Ger- 
man antecedents, which were members of the German race? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, that was just by way of missionary 
work in trying to recruit more members? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 



3896 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. At the meetings, in your instruction on German 
heroes and current leaders, were you taught German history, or the 
history of the National Socialist Party? 

Miss Vooros. The leader was only taught that. The leader would, 
once a week, each Wednesday, go to the bund's home there, in Ridge- 
wood, on Grave Street, and the leaders would go there, and they 
would be taught by Mr. Dinkelacker, German history; then they 
were to teach that to us. 

Mr. Whitley. Teach their group? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How often would they have those leaders' meet- 
ings ? 

Miss Vooros. Once a week, every Wednesday. 

Mr. Whitley. Then they had the group meeting every Saturday? 

Miss Vooros. Every Saturday. 

Mr. Whitley. Was there any other type of instruction received — 
that is, of a general nature — at those meetings? 

Miss Vooros. That was all while I was a member there. 

Mr. Whitley. That was all while you were a member? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Now you mentioned a moment ago the hikes 

The Chairman. Before you get to that, let us finish up on this. 
Now were you taught — were those pamphlets written in German? 

Miss Vooros. They were. 

The Chairman. Was your instruction given in the German lan- 
guage? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. The whole thing occurred in the German lan- 
guage ? 

Miss Vooros. Everything in German. 

The Chairman. Now, in the instruction you received with refer- 
ence to German history, did it deal largely with Hitler and his rise 
to power and what the Nazi movement stood for ? 

Miss Vooros. It consisted only of that. 

The Chairman. Was there anything in there that criticized the 
Nazi movement, or acknowledged any mistakes that had been made? 

Miss Vooros. No, sir; it praised it. 

The Chairman. Were all of the pamphlets and all of the instruc- 
tions praising the Hitler movement in Germany and the Nazi Party? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did they tell you how the Nazi Party was first 
formed ? 

Miss Vooros. It did. 

The Chairman. And the manner in which they succeeded ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. What did they tell you as to the best vehicle that 
they used to gain power in Germany? 

Miss Vooros. Propaganda. 

The Chairman. Propaganda based on what? What appeals did 
they say they made — the most effective appeals? 

Miss Vooros. Well, going to the people and telling them what the 
Nazi government would offer them, and the advantages it had for 
them. 

The Chairman. Well, did that include appeals to the unemployed? 



UN-AMERIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3897 

Miss Vooros. Yes; saying they would get positions. 

The Chairman. That they would get positions when the Nazi 
movement went to power? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; that no one would be unemployed. 

The Chairman. No one would be unemployed? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did they say anything about economic security? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; they did. 

The Chairman. They said the Nazi government would promote 
economic security ? 

Miss Vooros. That is right. 

The Chairman. Did they say it would bring social justice to the 
people of the country? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. So that it was largely an appeal to those who were 
in distress? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. What about the question of racial prejudice; did 
they deal with that in any respect? 

IVliss Vooros. Quite a bit of it. 

The Chairman. In that connection, tell us what they taught you ; 
tell us exactly what that phase of your instruction was. 

Miss Vooros. Well, that we, the Germans, were Aryans; the Ger- 
mans were the people who were — they were the ones that originated 
culture in this world, and we were the only ones that were apt to 
succeed in this world, and we were to work together. 

The Chairman. Did they exclude from that any other races be- 
sides the Aryan races? 

Miss Vooros. No ; it was just the Aryan race. 

The Chairman. For the sake of the record, so that we will know 
about it, what is your extraction; are you German? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

The Chairman. What are you ? 

Miss Vooros. My father is Greek. 

The Chairman. Your father was Greek? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. There was doubt about that, whether they 
could admit me to the organization; that because of this I was not 
really an Aryan, because my father was Greek, and they had quite — 
they called an extra meeting about it, and that said I had such strong 

feelings for the German people at that time 

ifirst The Chairman. You do not have any Jewish blood, do you? 

Miss Vooros. No. They said I had such strong feelings that they 
could make an exception, but I would have to be very careful. 

Mr. Thomas. I would like to ask a question? 

The Chairman. In that connection? 

Mr. Thomas. Yes. Where was your father born ? 

Miss Vooros. Syra. 

Mr. Whitley. In Syra? 

Miss Vooros. Off the coast of Greece, a small island. 

Mr. Whitley. And where was your mother born? 

Miss Vooros. In Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. She was born in Germany? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What part of Germany? 



3898 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Vooros. The southern part, near the Czechoslovakia border. 

Mr. Whitley. Your mother is German, then? 

Miss Vooros. My mother is German; but, don't you see, they 
told me that had no affect on my mother; it was me. My mother 
was German, but it was me that came in question. 

Mr. Whitley. Is there any Jewish blood in your mother? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. That is all. 

The Chairman. Before we leave this phase, which I think is very 
important : You Ray they taught you the lives of the German heroes? 

Miss Vooros. They did. 

The Chairman. And the leaders of the Nazi movement and the 
philosophy of the Nazi movement? 

Miss Vooros. They did. 

The Chairman. They told you what were the most effective ap- 
peals that were made in Germany to gain adherents? 

Miss Vooros. They did. 

The Chairman. Did they tell you among what class they made 
tthe greatest progress in Germany? 

Miss Vooros. I don't get the question. 

The Chairman. What class — the workers, the middle class? 

Miss Vooros. The workers. 

The Chairman. It was the workers in Germany they made the 
greatest progress among? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. Because the workers were unemployed? 

Miss Vooros. Thev were in need. 

The Chairman. They were in need, and the Nazi Party promised 
economic security, social justice, and other bonanzas they were sup- 
posed to receive? 

Miss Vooros. That is right. 

The Chairman. Proceed. 

Mr. Whitley. Miss Vooros, in the teachings you received during 
the time you were in the bund, you say that they did not teach you 
American history or American ideals. Were they critical of Ameri- 
can history and American institutions — openly critical? 

Miss Vooros. They were. 

Mr. Whitley. Were they very positively critical? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; very. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, the procedure at those youth-group 
meetings was to praise everything German and to criticize every- 
thing American? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you aware, or do you know, that the bund 

The Chairman. Are you going to develop that criticism phase? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. The bund professes to be an American group, 
just another American group primarily interested in American in- 
stitutions and the welfare of this Government. From your 
knowledge of their activities, as a member, as an active member of 
the bund, would you say that such a profession is correct? 

Miss Vooros. No; it isn't. 

Mr. Whitley. It is not correct? 

Miss Vooros. It is not. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3899 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, Mr. Kulm, the leader of the 
bund, in the last 2 days has testified and stated repeatedly that the 
bund was an American group primarily interested in the welfare of 
this country. What would you say of "that statement; is it correct? 

Miss Vooros. False. 

Mr. Whitley. It is false? 

Miss Vooros. It is. 

The Chairman. Before we get away from this other, before we 

leave this 

Mr. Whitley. Criticism? 

The Chairman. Yes; criticism. Let us develop that. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the nature of the criticism which was di- 
rected by the leaders of the bund and the Youth Movement at Ameri- 
can institutions? 

Miss Vooros. Well, they always found fault with this Government 
here. They said it was being led by one minority, and they were 
only looking out for their own good; they were not taking any 
interest in the other people, the other races. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. And what was that minority that they 
criticized particularly? 

Miss Vooros. The Jews. 

Mr. Whitley. And was there any other particular type of criti- 
cism they directed at the Government? 

Miss Vooros. Well, they did not like this form of government. 

Mr. Whitley. They did not like the democratic form of govern- 
ment ? 

Miss Vooros. No; they didn't. 

The Chairman. In that connection, did they hold up the superior 
advantages of the Nazi Government to the American Government? 

Miss Vooros. They said national socialism was the only thing that 
could save us. I do not know from what we were supposed to be 
saved. 

The Chairman. In the philosophy they taught you, did they 
teach you the duty of the Government to take care of the people, to 
see that they had jobs and to give them economic security? 

Miss Vooros. Not the American Government. 

The Chairman. When they described the Nazi government, did 
they say that was the purpose of the Nazi government? 

Miss Vooros. That was the purpose, and it was apt to spread. 

The Chairman. It was apt to spread? 

Miss Vooros. It was. 

Mr. Thomas. But they did say the national socialistic form of 
government was the only form of government that could save us? 

Miss Vcoros. That is right. 

Mr. Thomas. Did they say what it could save us from? 

Miss Vooros. No; but they, said we Germans were not getting any 
consideration in this country, and it was about time we should 
speak up. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. W r hitley, you will proceed. Are 
you through with the Youth Movement phase of it? Have we cov- 
ered that thoroughly ? 

Mr. Whitley. Coming back for a few minutes to the Youth 
Movement, Miss Vooros, you mentioned a moment ago something of 



^AM 



3900 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

the different lectures and studies which were followed, and, in addi- 
tion, you mentioned hikes which they were taking. 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; when we went on hikes, we went in march- 
ing formation. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you wear uniforms? 

Miss Vcoros. Yes, sir; we wore uniforms. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you use your same uniform that you used as 
a member of the Youth Movement? 

Miss Vooros. At that time it was not the same. 

Mr. Whitley. But you did have one at that time ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. But that is not the uniform they used ? 

Miss Vooros. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You say you went in marching formation? 

Miss Vooros. "When we went on hikes, we went in uniform, and 
marching formation. We carried a flag, blue and white, with a 
white swastika, which is called the victory sign. 

Mr. Whitiey. Is that the svmbol of the German Nazi Youth 
Movement throughout the world? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, that symbol was not originated 
in the United States? 

Miss Vooros. No, sir; it is a German symbol. 

Mr. Whitley. So you wore a uniform, and went in marching 
formation, carrying the Youth Movement symbol? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What did you do? 

Miss Vooros. On our hikes, we went in marching formation, and 
we built our own small fires and sang German songs. Mr. Dinkel- 
acker was the leader, and we would have night marches. On these 
marches, you are supposed to walk in the dark, and not see where 
you are going, and keep in line formation. Then, when we reached 
the place we wanted, we would build a big fire and sing German 
songs. We would give the salute three times. We would give the 
heil three times with the salute, and each time it is given to Balden 
von Schirach. The marches were to build up resistance. 

Mr. Whitley. You have gone into this marching in formation on 
hikes nnd buildimr fires at the camps and singing songs 

The Chairman (interposing). I understood her to say that she did 
not go on these hikes. 

Miss Vooros. I had reports once a week, every Wednesday. Every 
Wednesday there would be a report of what took place. 

The Chairman. You are not testifying from first hand knowledge 
of what took place, but you are testifying from reports that were 
made? 

Miss Vooros. That is what I did in Germany, and they do the same 
things here. 

Mr. Whitley. You became the leader of the South Brooklyn Youth 
Movement, and, as leader, attended the leaders' meetings once a 
week. You saw the reports that were submitted, and the official 
reports to the bund covering all these activities? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; and it is generally planned out what they 
shall do. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3901 

Mr. Wiiitlky. I think, in view of the fact, that she saw the official 
reports submitted as to these night hikes, as submitted to the bund, 
she could describe, at least, what the reports were. 

The Chairman. These reports undertake to describe what took 
place \ 

Mi-s Vooros. Yes, sir; they would call in German on Balden von 
Schirach. They must go through that, build the fires, and they 
worship this man. 

Mr. Whitley. You did personally, later on, in Germany actually 
participate in the same type of activities? 

Miss Vooros. Y^es. sir. 

The Chairman. When you speak of these meetings at night, look 
at this picture, and see if that is what you have in mind. 

Miss Vooros. Y"es sir, that is correct. 

The Chairman. In Germany, you have been in similar meetings? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. They hold these camps there? 

Miss Vooros. Y^es, sir; and they carry it out here the same way. 

Mr. Whitley. Y r ou mentioned the fact that the purpose of the 
night marching was to build up resistance? 

Miss Vooros. Y r es, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do they try to make it as hard on the leaders and 
the members as possible? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; if we are on a march, the more scratches we 
have, the better it is. It is better to have them, because we show 
that we can take it. 

Mi-. Whitley. It shows that they can go through underbrush in 
the dark, and still move in formation, letting nothing interfere. 
Physical pain does not amount to anything? 

Miss Vooros. No. sir; it is not supposed to mean anything. You 
are supposed to be without feeling about it. You are supposed to 
be without feeling or pity. You are not supposed to show any 
Sympathy. 

Mr. Whitley. Not supposed to show any sympathy at all for physi- 
cal suffering? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir ; that is it. 

Mr. Whitley. That is a part of the regular routine of teaching? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Continuing with the routine followed on the march- 
ing, and which you as leader of the American Youth Movement are 
familiar with, will you describe that in some detail? 

Miss Vooros. Well, we had those night marches. 

Mr. Whitley. Y^ou were coming to the point where they built fires ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; they built fires and sang songs. They would 
tell stories about this man I mentioned, Balden von Schirach. They 
would tell something about him, and give the Nazi salute which would 
be given three times, with the heil. 

Mr. Whitley. They give the Nazi salute, with the heil, every three 
times to the leader. That is what you were describing. 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; then they sing the German national anthem, 
the Horst Wessel. They sing those songs and give the salute of the 
German-American Bund. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they ever salute any American leaders or insti- 
tutions? 



3902 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Vooros. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. The whole attitude with reference to America was 
constantly critical ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. In addition to these hikes which the Youth Move- 
ment took, and at these meetings they held, did they have any drills? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; we had drills, marching youth drills, and 
the boys used the goose step in drills at meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. They marched in formation, and had the goose step? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. By the girls, also ? 

Miss Vooros. No, sir; the}^ had to march in formation. 

Mr. Whitley. At practically every meeting on Saturdays, they had 
these youths to drill ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; the time was fixed, a half hour for this and 
a half hour for that. There was a time for the marching and drills. 

Mr. Whitley. Was the discipline very rigid ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; it was. 

Mr. Whitley. At these weekly meetings, and these marches, it was 
all done in uniform? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. They marched in uniform ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did anyone in the camp speak English? 

Miss Vooros. No, sir ; they spoke German. 

Mr. Whitley. If anyone spoke English, there was trouble? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; if they did not know any better, or did not 
speak German, they were forbidden to wear the uniform for 2 weeks, 
or 2 Saturdays. That was about the worst punishment they could 
have. 

Mr. Whitley. Were there any other activities, or general routine 
activities, in this movement, that you think might be of interest to 
the committee? 

Miss Vooros. That occurred while I was a member? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes; when did you become leader of the South 
Brooklyn Youth Movement? 

Miss Vocros. When Miss Koch died. 

Mr. Whitley. You succeeded her as leader? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; she had left for the camp. She was the 
leader, and was at Camp Siegfried. I was out there. I went out 
to visit her. She told be about it. She had become quite a bit 
troubled because the boys' camp and girls' camp were so close to- 
gether. She had to stand guard there, and while there she con- 
tracted pneumonia and died. 

Mr. Whitley. Prior to the time she died, and you became the 
leader, had you been to Camp Siegfried ? 

Miss Vooros. Once before. 

Mr. Whitley. Had you been to Camp Nordland ? 

Miss VooR' s. That came after Camp Siegfried. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you describe your experiences at Camp Sieg- 
fried? What was the camp routine there, insofar as the girls' part 
of the Youth Movement was concerned? 

Miss Vooros. The routine at the camp? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3903 



Miss Vooros. Well, it was a German camp. They had to do what- 
ever was told them. They were told that they would be punished 
for disorderly conduct. They arose in the morning, swam, and had 
exercises. They would come to breakfast, and then clean up. After 
that, they would gather together and sing songs. This I also know 
from a booklet I received. They swam, and exercised, and would 
have something to do every half hour. In the afternoon, from 1 to 
2 o'clock, they would have to study German culture. They had to 
study German literature, and take high-school studies in German 
culture. 

Mr. Whitley. It is confined to instruction about German institu- 
tions ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; there was a girls' tent there near the boys' 
tent, 10 or 20 feet away. That gave quite a bit of trouble, and the 
parents complained about it, or about the boys' camps and the girls' 
camps being too close together. They saw the boys and girls there 
together, doing things that they should not be doing. That was 
brought up with the youth leader at that time, Mr. Vandenberg, and 
there was a'discussion about what should be done about it. Later he 
called a meeting, and said that the boys and girls should go some- 
where where people did not see them, and should hide it better. 

Mr. Whitley. He did not condemn the practice of immorality? 

Miss Vooros. Well, that they should follow their instincts. 

Mr. Thomas. He asked about immorality? What did you say 
about following instincts? 

Miss Vooros. That their instincts ought not to be curbed. 

Mr. Whitley. That is a part of their teaching? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. The leader did not object to immoralitj' so long 
as there was no complaint? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the principle? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In Mein Kampf and other German literature one 
of the main arguments of the Nazis is that it inspires purity, stamp- 
ing out immorality, and forcing men and women to be clean. Your 
statement does not check with that. 

Miss Vooros. It does. That is what I was taught in Germany. 
That is what they call purity. That if two people go together, they 
should not curb their natural instincts. That is what they call pure. 
Thev do not consider that anything immoral. 

The Chairman. Did you enter this movement for the purpose of 
becoming an informer? 

Miss Vooros. No. sir. 

The Chairman. Were you genuine and sincere about it when you 
went in ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You did not go in with the idea of giving informa- 
tion ab^'u: them later? 
I Miss Vooros. No. sir. 
The Chairman Why did you quit the movement? 
Miss Vooros. Because the leaders would not let me alone. They 
made several attempts to attack me. It was the immorality in the 
movement. 






3904 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. The immorality of the movement appalled you to 
such an extent that you left it ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir ; it disgusted me. 

Mr. Starnes. And you left the movement? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. What do you mean by culture, or instruction in 
German culture by the German Bund? What does it consist of? 
Exp'ain what you mean by German culture. 

Miss Vooros. They tell us that we are pure Aryans, and that we 
are not to mingle with any other races, because they say that that 
would be the most disgusting thing that could happen. They say 
that it would ruin our race. They say that our race would be ruined. 
Small children, from 8 to 12 years old, are given books published by 
Julius Streicher. They are the kind of books that children would get 
in kindergarten. They would have pictures of Jews with blood- 
dripping fingers, and under the picture there would be rhymes. They 
are given to children from 8 to 12 years old. We were told that later 
we would have children, and that our children were to be in favor of 
this same government, because it was the only way to get along. 

Mr. Whitley. When you said the German Government, you meant, 
also, German culture? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; German culture. 

Mr. Starnes. The people are given instruction in the German Nazi 
theory of government? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Do they give any instruction on the theory of Amer- 
ican Government ? 

Miss Vooros. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you describe for the record just how the youth 
movement is divided up in groups, by ages, girls and boys, and so 
forth? 

Miss Vooros. For the girls and boys, the ages are from 8 to 12, 
from 12 to 14, and from 14 to 18. Also, there is a special group from 
18 to 21. There is that special group. 

For that special group, the boys and girls have books that would 
be used by high-school and college students. They watch them in 
that group, because they want the ones who are most likely to be 
able to spread propaganda. 

Mr. Whitley. You were in the group from 14 to 18 years of age? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Those groups were handled separately, so far as 
the meetings were concerned. 

Miss Vooros. They had separate rooms. 

Mr. Whitley. Going back to Camp Siegfried, you have described 
in more or less detail the daily routine, with the teaching, and so 
forth. That is continuing at the camps. 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you been at Camp Siegfried since? This was 
in the summer of 1937, I believe. 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do they have the same sort of a routine at Camp 
Nordland, at Andover, N. J.? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You say the routine at Camp Nordland is the same? 



.ram, 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3905 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir; it is exactly the same. 

Mr. Whitley. That was prior to the time that you were made 
leader of the Brooklyn group, or South Brooklyn group \ 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. The younger boys and girls, the group 
from 8 to 12, would be mostly at Camp Siegfried. The girls a little 
older would go to Camp Nordland, because they have a training there 
that is a little more strenuous than at Camp Siegfried. That is espe- 
cially true when they are marching. They do not carry that quite 
to the extent that they do at Camp Nordland. They leave Camp 
Nordland at 1 o'clock in the morning, and the more scratches they 
have when they get back, the better fitted they are counted. You 
are supposed to have resistance. When I was there, they said no 
one was to show sorrow or pity. They told me that a National 
Socialist should show no sympathy. They said, "You are supposed 
to take it," 

Mr. Whitley. Following your stay at Camp Siegfried and Camp 
Nordland, at what time were you made the leader of the South 
Brooklyn group? 

Mr. Thomas. First, state how many boys and girls you had in the 
youth movement at Camp Nordland. 

Miss Vooros. I would say about 40 or 50 girls. 

Mr. Thomas. About that average all the time? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. When were you at Camp Nordland? 

Miss Vooros. At the end of August 1937. 

Mr. Thomas. How long did you stay at Camp Nordland? 

Miss Vooros. Three days altogether. 

Mr. Thomas. While there, did you see many books and pamphlets, 
similar to the ones you have described ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. It was the same literature for the older 
boys and girls. There was Hitler's Mein Kampf, and some of Pel- 
ley's literature. Liberation. I noticed that because of the red head- 
lines. 

The Chairman. What else was there ? 

Miss Vooros. There were Julius Streicher's books. 

Mr. Thomas. Where was the literature kept at Camp Nordland? 

Miss Vooros. It was kept in a separate tent. 
_ The Chairman. Was there any other literature, or any American 
literature?. 

Miss Vooros. There was a copy of Social Justice, by Father 
Coughlin. 

The Chairman. What else was there ? 

Miss Vooros. There were books written by Julius Streicher. 

The Chairman. Were there any other books that you can think of ? 

Miss Vooros. No, sir ; nothing that I can think of. 

Mr. Thomas. Where were the books kept ? 

Miss Vooros. They were kept in a separate tent. They had a sep- 
arate tent for them. 

Mr. Thomas. Was there a large supply of them ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. How many copies would they have of the different 
books ? 

Miss Vooros. Four or five copies. They had the Deutscher Weck- 
ruf Beobachter publications. 



3906 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Do they sell the literature or give it away? 

Miss Vooros. No, sir ; not given away. When we were studying it, 
we had it a few hours. 

Mr. Whitley. You had it for study purposes? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. When did Miss Koch, the South Brooklyn leader, 
die? 

Miss Vooros. About the middle of August. 

Mr. Whitley. When were you made the leader of that group? 

Miss Vooros. After that. Ernst Weider was the leader. 

The Chairman. Can you give the names of some of the people 
in the camps who can be questioned with reference to these matters ? 
Will you supply for the committee the names of some of the other 
leaders or members of this Youth Movement, with their addresses, 
so the committee can get in contact with them, and find out what 
they have to say about it ? 

Miss Vooros. You have the names of our leaders. 

The Chairman. Suppose you give us the names of some there who 
were not leaders. 

Mr. Whitley. Miss Vooros has furnished a list of the boys and 
girls who accompanied her on the trip to Germany. They are scat- 
tered all over the country. There were 15 boys and 15 girls. 

The Chairman. This witness has testified to a most astounding 
state of affairs, and I think it would be well to question some others 
in the same group. 

Mr. Whitley. That has not been done previously, because it is 
obvious that some of these other witnesses may be hostile, and if 
the information came from Miss Vooros, since, at least, indirectly, 
there have been threats made, I do not think it would be a good idea. 

The Chairman. That is the reason you did not call on the others? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Your appearance here is from a purely patriotic 
impulse, you are not on anybody's pay roll ? 

Miss Vooros. No, sir. They have done so many things against 
this Government, that I feel that I may have been doing wrong. 

The Chairman. After taking a part in this movement, you felt 
that it was your duty to tell about it, and to give the statements 
you have? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. The only thing this committee wants is the bald 
truth with respect to all these matters, and that is what you are 
giving ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir ; I am telling the truth. 

Mr. Thomas. While at Camp Nordland, did you have any oppor- 
tunity to meet any people at the camp who resided in Sussex 
County? 

Miss Vooros. No, sir; at Camp Nordland, at least while I was 
there, no one was allowed to come in. I stayed there 3 days, and 
could not hold out any longer, because, first, of the immorality I 
saw going on there. I saw what they did, and, besides, it was not 
at all a convenient place. I telephoned my mother. No one was 
permitted to come in unless they had the permission of the leader. 
Mr. Thomas. Did you have any opportunity to meet people other 
than those in the camp ? 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3907 

Miss Vooros. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. What was the name of the leader? 

Miss Vooros. Ereka Hagebusch. 

Mr. Whitley. Was she the only leader of the girls at that time? 

Miss Vooros. No, sir; not at that time. 

The Chairman. Were you cautioned not to divulge anything that 
went on in the camp? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. About 2 days later, one man came to me, 
Mr. Weida 

The Chairman (interposing). He told you what? 

Miss Vooros. He told me that I should not talk about anything 
I saw in the camp, because he said that I took everything the wrong 
way. I did not go around very much. He said what I saw there 
was nothing compared to what it might look like. 

The Chairman. Why did he say that? Had you been talking 
about it? Why did he come to you unless you had been talking? 

Miss Vooros. Before I went to Camp Nordland, one of the South 
Brooklyn leaders made advances to me. I went to Mr. Dinkelacker 
and told him about it. I said I did not like the way Mr. Vanden- 
berg acted. He said, what was the matter, and couldn't I take it. 
I did not know what he meant by it. He said it was proper to go 
with him and ride on the bus. When I was made to go to Camp 
Siegfriend, I had no other alternative. My parents had left, and I 
had to go on the bus. On the second day I was there, I saw 
immorality going on between the boys and girls, and nothing was 
said about it. I did not like it at all. Then Mr. Weida came to me 
and asked if I had been talking about what was going on. I said, 
"'No ; I do not want to know anything about it." My mother being a 
German was naturally sympathetic with Germans. I did not like 
it ; I thought it was wrong. I did not like it when this leader made 
advances to me. I kept a stiff upper lip until I went to Germany. 

The Chairman. That was before you went to Germany. 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. I think we have covered your experiences at Camp 
Siegfried and Camp Nordland. That was in 1937. 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. When you came back, and got back into the routine 
of the youth movement, what followed? First, when did you first 
hear of the proposed German trip ? 

Miss Vooros. The first time was in September. Two leaders, 
Ereka Hagebusch and Franz Nicolay, were going to Germany to 
study at Stuttgart. The bund sent each year two or three leaders 
to Germany. In this year, 1938, was the first time they were sending 
15 boys and 15 girls to Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. They sent the whole group at that time. 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What was the object in sending them? 

Miss Vooros. To study National Socialism, and, naturally, when 
they returned they would spread the propaganda. 

Mr. Whitley. Going back to the incident or occasion on which you 
heard the proposed trio mentioned, when was that ? 

Miss Vooros. That was in the fall of 1937. We were to go to 
Nuremberg in the National Socialist State; we were to go in Sep- 
tember 1938, and they spoke to us about that in the fall of 1937. 



3908 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Who told you about the proposed trip \ 

Miss Vooros. Mr. Dinkelacker. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was to make that trip ? 

Miss Vooros. Fifteen boys and 15 girls, from all over the United 
States. 

Mr. Whitley. To be selected from all over the United States \ 

Miss Vooros. Yes; the most active members. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was to make the selection? 

Miss Vooros. The Youth leaders. 

Mr. Whitley. In the different sections? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. They told you about that in September 1937 '. 

Miss Vooros. They did. 

Mr. Whitley. That this group of 15 boys and 15 girls were to be 
sent to Germany in September 1938? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they say at that time who was to make that 
trip ? 

Miss Vooros. Not on that date. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they say how many out of your group were to 
make that trip ? 

Miss Vooros. No; they said the most active leaders, but they have 
to obtain quite a bit of knowledge in return. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, the ones they thought could best 
undergo that training and carry it out ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. Before we leave that subject of propaganda, which 
is very important, did they tell you how to spread propaganda, and 
among whom you were to talk in behalf of national socialism, in 
behalf of the German Government ? 

Miss Vooros. They said mainly among the younger group, because 
we would later grow up. 

The Chairman. Were you to talk among those on the inside, or 
among outsiders? 

Miss Vooros. Outsiders. We were taught that the bund is for Ger- 
mans, could consist only of Germans. Thev' said that while other 
people would come in, they would be sympathizers, and would never 
become leaders. 

The Chairman. Did you have some people in there who were not 
citizens of the United States? 

Miss Vooros. Quite a few. 

The Chairman. Who were citizens of Germany? 

Miss Vooros. Citizens of Germany. 

The Chairman. So the purpose of sending you over there was to 
have you receive instruction in naziism? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. In Nazi technique, Nazi propaganda method.-, so 
you could return to the United States and spread that among people 
in any classes that might be said to be sympathetic ( 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. After you first heard of this proposed trip in the 
fall of 1937, did you hear any more about it? 

Miss Vooros. No; they did not say anything more about it until 
the early part of 1938. They said there are camps in Germany 



I \ AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3909 

which would give us more knowledge than we would get it: we went 
in September. We will probably only see their fuehrer, and that 
was all. They said at this camp we would get 6 weeks of training 
in national socialism that was just perfect. 

Mr. Whitley. The original plan was to send this group over in 
September 1938? 

Bliss Vookos. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What camp was that that you were supposed to 
go to '. 

Miss VooROS. It was the Hitler youth camp near Berlin. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that the one they first proposed to send you to? 

.Miss Vooros. They did not propose to send us to a camp, but just 
to have us go to Nuremberg. 

Mr. Whitley. Then the} r changed the plan? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And decided to send you when? 

Miss Vooros. In April. 

Mr. Whitley. In April 1938? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. The reason they made that change was that by 
sending you in April they could send you to the camp? 

Miss Vcoros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the name of that camp? 

Miss Vooros. Camp Haubertosehohe. 

The Chairman. The reason they did not send you at first was 
that the only person you would see was Hitler? 

Miss Vooros. That is right. 

The Chairman. They wanted you to have the benefit of the in- 
structions in the camp? 

Miss Vocros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. When did you first hear that the original plan was 
changed ? 

Miss Vooros. In February 1938. 

Mr. Whitley. When did you find out that you were to be selected 
as 1 of the 15 girls to be sent over? 

Miss Vooros. That was several days later. I was called into 
Dinkelackers office, to the office of the leader in South Brooklyn, 
and Vandenberg was there, and I was recommended to represent 
Brooklyn. 

Mr. Whitley. You were to represent Brooklyn on that trip? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Going on a little further, you learned in February 
that you were to make the trip in April. What instructions were 
given you; what plans were made for this trip? 

Miss Vooros. First, we were to keep our mouths shut about the 
whole matter. No one was supposed to know about this. There 
was just to be a trip to visit Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you were not to talk about why 
you were going or with whom you were going ? 

Miss Vooros. No; he said it would be very dangerous if anyone 
found out what our purpose was, but that we could all be trusted, 
after a careful examination as to how we acted, and he thought it 
would be all right to send us. 

94931— 39— vol. 6- 14 



3910 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. In that connection, Miss Vooros, during the regular 
routine meetings, or the regular routine proceedings of the Youth 
Movement, did they caution the members not to discuss what went 
on, or to talk about their activities in those meetings, on the outside ? 

Miss Vooros. They never did anything they could talk about. 

Mr. Whitley. They had these drills; did they try to keep those 
secret ? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, as to the regular meetings, they did 
not feel that thev had to caution you about discussing them? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. But when it came to the point of making this trip 
to Germany they did very specifically instruct you that you were not 
to talk about it? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; Mr. Dinkelacker had previously received a 
letter from Hugo Haas. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was he? 

Miss Vooros. He was a leader in Kidgewood several years ago. 
He is now an active member of the V. D. A. in Germany, the league 
of Germans living abroad. 

Mr. Whitley. He was a former bund leader in Brooklyn? 

Miss Vooros. In Ridgewood. 

Mr. Whitley. And for the past several years he has been an offi- 
cial of the V. D. A. in Germany? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he making the plans on the other side for this 
trip? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; because the trip was sponsored in Germany, and 
Germany wanted us to go on the trip, and Mr. Dinkelacker had been 
notified about it. He stated distinctly that we were to keep quiet 
about the matter and not let anyone know, even if our parents asked 
us we could say it was a trip to Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. A pleasure trip? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. With no particular purpose for it? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You say Mr. Hugo Haas wrote those instructions 
to Mr. Dinkelacker and Mr. Dinkelacker gave those instructions to 
you? Did you see that letter? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you see it and read it, or did Mr. Dinkelacker 
refer to it? 

Miss Vooros. It was on the desk, and we girls gathered around to 
see it. It was two or three pages long, with instructions, that he 
would meet us on that trip in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. But he specifically said no one was to know the 
purpose of that trip? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. In addition to the propaganda work you had to 
do, was anything said about how you would learn about any secrets 
over here, to be told them over there, in reference to our country? 
Have you ever been told that you should learn where our shipyards 
and munitions factories are? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 391 1 

Miss Vooros. No; but before I left for Germany I was given a 
letter by someone to take to Germany. It was given to me by Mr. 
Vandenberg, and he got it from Mr. Winterscheidt. I do not know 
what was contained in that letter, and after I was on the ship 2 
or 3 days a certain man was to have the letter. He was the political 
leader on the ship, and he came and asked for it. 

The Chairman. You were given a sealed letter? 

Miss Vooros. I was given a sealed letter. 

The Chairman. You were given that sealed letter by whom? 

Miss Vooros. Mr. Vandenberg. 

The Chairman. Who is he? 

Miss Vooros. He is a leader in South Brooklyn. 

The Chairman. Is he a citizen of the United States or Germany? 

Miss Vooros. I do not know whether he is a citizen or not. 

The Chairman. You said he got it from someone else. 

Miss Vooros. From Mr. Winterscheidt. 

The Chairman. What is Mr. Vandenberg's first name ? 

Miss Vooros. His name is Frederick Vandenberg. 

The Chairman. He got the letter from whom ? 

Miss Vooros. From Mr. Winterscheidt. 

The Chairman. What is his first name ? 

Miss Vooros. Severn. 

The Chairman. How do you know he got the letter from Mr. 
Winterscheidt ? 

Miss Vooros. I was told to go to Mr. Winterscheidt's office and I 
was to get some pictures, and I got pictures of the German-American 
Bund at meetings, because I was sent on a mission; I was to make 
a speech about what our organization was doing here. 

The Chairman. Where is Mr. Vandenberg now? 

Miss Vooros. He is in Brooklyn. 

The Chairman. Where is Mr. Winterscheidt? 

Miss Vooros. He is in prison, at Rikers Island. 

The Chairman. So you were given both a letter and pictures to 
take back? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. You do not know what was in the letter ? 

Miss Vooros. I do not. It was addressed to Stuttgart, the main 
office of the propaganda office for Germans abroad. 

The Chairman. You were to take that to the Foreign Institute? 

Miss Vooros. I was not to take it, but a man would call for it. 

The Chairman. On board ship? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; on the steamship Hamburg. 

The Chairman. One of the political leaders? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. You were to hand it to him ? 
the Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. What about the pictures ? 

Miss Vooros. I was to keep the pictures. 

The Chairman. They were pictures of what? 

Miss Vooros. I think they were pictures of the various meetings. 

The Chairman. Why was Winterscheidt sent to prison? 

Miss Vooros. On immorality charges, and for indecent exposure. 

Mr. Whitley. He was convicted in Brooklyn for endangering the 
morals of a 10-year old girl, in the first instance, and then for indecent 



3912 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

exposure at the Pennsylvania station in New York City. He is now 
serving time in connection with the charge of endangering the morals 
of a minor, and the minor was a 10-year-old girl. 

Mr. Starnes. What is Mr. Winterscheidt's official capacity in the 
bund ? 

Miss Vooros. He was in charge of the newspaper, the German weekly 
newspaper. 

Mr. Starnes. That is the Weckruf imd Beobachter, the German 
newspaper published in New York City? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. He was responsible for that paper. 

Mr. Whitley. Coming back, Miss Vooros, after j^ou had been selected 
in February to make this trip, you received your instructions from Mr. 
Dinkelacker, who, in turn had been instructed by Mr. Hugo Haas, in 
Germany, as to what you were to bring with you? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you get instructions as to the time you were to 
sail and the boat you were to sail on ? 

Miss Vooros. We were told we were to sail on the steamship Ha?)i- 
burr/, and we were to bring plain clothes and our uniforms, but our 
uniforms we were not allowed to wear when we were leaving here be- 
cause of the fear that reporters in New York would get wise to \ v he fact 
that we were leaving. 

Mr. Whitley. Did this group of 15 boys and 15 girls from all over 
the United States have any other instructions, or were they given any 
money ? 

Miss Vooros. We were given some money ; some of the girls and boys 
who came from Los Angeles were given money ; we were each given $20. 

Mr. Whitley. Who gave you that money ? 

Miss Vooros. The money was given to me by Mr. Dinkelacker. 

Mr. Whitley. Given to you in cash ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. To your knowledge, did the ones j^ou know who 
made the trip all get the same amount of money? 

Miss Vooros. All except Mrs. Klapproth. 

Mr. Whitley. Where did she come from? 

Miss Vooros. New Jersey. 

Mr. Whitley. She was one of the 15 girls? 

Miss Vooros. She represented New Jersey. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is Mrs. Klapproth ? 

Miss Vooros. She is the wife of the man who has been trying to 
get a liquor license in New Jersey, Mr. August Klapproth. 

Mr. Whitley. He is the leader in New Jersey ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; he is the leader in New Jersey. 

Mr. Whitley. Of the German-American Bund? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; he is the leader at Camp Nordland. 

Mr. Thomas. He is one of the incorporators of Camp Nord- 
land ? 

Miss Vooros. One of the incorporators. 

Mr. Whitley. Did she tell you why she got more than $20? 

Miss Vooros. I was at the office 

Mr. Whitley. That they gave her more money because she needed 
it to make preparations to go? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What office was that? 






DN-AMERICAN PR< U'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 3913 

Miss Vooros. That was Mr. Dinkelacker's office; that was on Long 
Island, at Belmont Avenue and Ninety-sixth Street. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you get your own passport ? 

Miss Vcohos. I got my own passport. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you get it through the State Department rep- 
resentative in New York? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have that passport here? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. [Handing passport to Mr. Whitley.] 

Mr. Whitley. Is this your passport, Miss Vooros [showing pass- 
port to Miss Vooros] ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That will be marked "Vooros Exhibit No. 2." 

I The passport referred to was marked "Vooros Exhibit No. 2."') 

Mr. Whitley. This is passport No. 495796, issued to Helen Irene 
Vooros, 390 Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn, N. Y. 

This is the passport you used for this trip to Germany? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Were there any further instructions received, or 
an}" plans made with reference to that trip that you were to make 
in April? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; and Mr. Dinkelacker was going on with us. 

Mr. Whitley. He was going with you? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And he said that when he got on board, and his 
name was not listed? 

Miss Vooros. It was not on the passenger list, because they said 
if they ever found out about it the publicity would not do us any 
good. 

Mr. Whitley. Every precaution was taken to make certain no 
one found out about this group going over there? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; and I also happened to look at the passenger 
list, and I did not see the name of Dinkelacker there. 

Mr. Whitley. You were instructed how to conduct yourselves, so 
far as getting on the boat was concerned, and what you were to do 
in getting on the boat ? 

Miss Vooros. Mr. Dinkelacker told us that we were not to call him 
Mr. Dinkelacker, that we were to call him Theo, short for Theodore, 
and not to call him Mr. Dinkelacker on board the ship. We did go 
on board the ship, and I was given this material to give to this 
man. 

Mr. Whitley. Who gave you that material? You were given a 
letter? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. When were you given that letter? 

Miss Vooros. Before we sailed. 

Mr. Whitley. Just before you sailed? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you already on the boat? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; Mr. W r interscheidt and Mr. Vandenberg were 
on the boat with me. 

Mr. Whitley. What time did the boat sail? 

Miss Vooros. Shortly after 12. 

Mr. Whitley. That is, after midnight? 



3914 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What date? 

Miss Vooros. I went on the ship on April 2 at 11 o'clock and 
sailed on April 3. 

Mr. Whitley. Some time after midnight ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you go on board by yourself? 

Miss Vooros. My parents were with me. 

Mr. Whitley. You went on separately ? 

Miss Vooros. We had to go on separately. 

Mr. Whitley. Had you met any of the other members of the group- 
before you got on the boat, other than Mrs. Klapproth? 

Miss Vooros. No ; I saw the group. 

Mr. Whitley. The group did not all come together? 

Miss Vooros. No; we were told we were not supposed to come 
together. 

Mr. Whitley. The ones coming into New York 

Miss Vooros. The ones that came from California stayed at Mr. 
Dinkelacker's house, and the others were at another house; I did 
not meet them until we were on the boat. 

Mr. Whitley. After you got on the boat on the evening of April 
2, you saw Mr. Dinkelacker? 

Miss Vooros. Mr. Vandenberg came to that stateroom ; I know Mr. 
Vandenberg and Mr. Winterscheidt ; and Mr. Vandenberg gave me 
a letter, and I took the letter and threw it on the bed. They said 
I should not do that, and so he tucked it under my pillow and said 
not to forget that it was very important. He had given me introduc- 
tory letters that I should give to the people on the Rhine, because 
his brother is a political leader in Germany, and a distant relative is 
a youth leader in Switzerland. He had given me these introductory 
letters. 

Mr. Whitley. When they came to that stateroom after you got 
on the boat, they gave you the sealed envelope. Did they tell you 
what was in it? 

Miss Vooros. They did not. It was a brown envelope. 

Mr. Whitley. What did they tell you were to do with it? 

Miss Vooros. They told me a man would call for the letter, and I 
should give it to him, and that was a political leader on board the 
ship. 

Mr. Whitley. They did not tell you who he was? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they tell you when he would call for them ? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. How were you to know he was the man you were 
to give them to? » 

Miss Vooros. This man would know the room in which I would 
be, and he said, "Did Mr. Vandenbere; give you a letter?" I said,. 
"Yes." He looked at the date of it and tore open the seal. 

Mr. Whitley. It was a wax seal, was it? 

Miss Vooros. No ; just a seal that you paste on. 

Mr. Whitley. When did the man call for that letter? 

Miss Vooros. Two days later. 

Mr. Whitley. You were 2 days at sea? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 



UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3915 

Mr. Whitley. When he came around he just told you he wanted 
the letter? 

Miss Vooeos. Yes; that it was for him. 

Mr. Whitley. You gave it to him? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You found out later — you called him the political 
leader on the boat ( 

Miss Vooeos. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What are the duties of a political leader on a 
boat? 

-Miss Vooros. Each German ship has a political leader, because 
when the time comes when they have to vote, like the case of the 
Anschluss in Austria, it would be the duty of the political leader to 
see that everything goes along all right, to see that every member 
on a German ship is a member of the Nazi Party, and that when the 
new laws come out these people on the ship would know about 
them. 

Mr. Starnes. Can you tell the names of some of the people to 
whom letters of introduction were addressed, and what position 
they hold? 

Miss Vooros. That was on the letter ? 

Mr. Starnes. No; I mean the letters given you. You said you 
were given letters of introduction. 

Miss Vooros. Yes; that was to the Nazi officials on the Rhine and 
the other man 



Mr. Starnes. What was his name? 

Miss Vooros. Mr. Vandenberg was his brother, and the Rhine 
man was Reiner Leprell. 

Mr. Thomas. Where did he live? 

Miss Vooeos. At that time he fled from Switzerland. He had 
charge of the Youth Movement in Switzerland. 

The Chairman. There were two letters, one to Mr. Vandenberg's 
brother ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; because I was to make a speech down there. 

The Chairman. A Nazi political leader? 

Miss Vooros. And there were two other letters. 

The Chairman. The next one was to whom ? 

Miss Vooros. Reiner Leprell. 

The Chairman. He was a youth leader in Switzerland? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. Who was the third Tetter addressed to? 

Miss Vooros. The other was the brown letter. 

Mr. Thomas. As to this man who came and secured that brown 
letter from you, did you find out what his name was? 

Miss Vooros. His picture is here; I have not got his name. 

Mr. Thomas. You have his picture? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you learn what position he held? 

Miss Vooros. Political leader. He is a member of the crew. He 
wears the Nazi uniform on board ship. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his function as political leader on the 
boat? 

Miss Vooros. He takes care of the political angle of everything 
there, when there is voting or speeches to make. 



3916 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Do all the boats have those political leaders? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; and he is there for another thing because, while 
I was a member of the Youth Movement, Dinkelacker was down there 
once or twice a month, and he makes out the report each month about 
the Youth Movement, and that is sent to Germany. I found out 
where it went to because when I was in Hugo Haas' office he gets a 
report. 

The Chairman. Did you say Dinkelacker sent the report? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. With reference to the Youth Movement, to Ger- 
many? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. How often? 

Miss Vooros. Once or twice a month. 

The Chairman. How do you know that to be a fact? 

Miss Vooros. We were having a meeting 

The Chairman. When? 

Miss Vooros. About a couple of weeks after I joined, 4 or 5 weeks in 
June, and Tillie Koch 

The Chairman. Where was the meeting? 

Miss Vooros. In south Brooklyn. Tillie Koch said, right after the 
meeting, they were going to the German ship ; and I said I wanted to 
go with her and, it being that Tillie Koch liked me, she had told me 
all her troubles she had. She said I could go with her. No one 
else knew about this, and I really should not have gone. I met her 
on Forty-second Street and Dinkelacker was there. Dinkelacker 
wanted to know who I was. She said I was a very good member 
of the Youth Movement. They were going down to the boat, and 
we met on the boat the Hitler youth members. Then they began 
talking about the work in that movement. They have work in differ- 
ent places, and we were to see them. 

Meanwhile Dinkelacker went to the political leader and he had a 
brown package about this size [indicating], and it was the report. 

The Chairman. How do you know it was the report? 

Miss Vooros. I later found out. I found out that the movement 
here is in constant contact with Germany, and they have to send a 
report ; it is compulsory that they send a report to Germany. 

The Chairman. That is your statement, but I want to know how 
you found that out. Did some one tell you that? 

Miss Vooros. Tillie Koch said Dinkelacker had some business with 
the political leader, and she was the leader in south Brooklyn. 

Mr. Whitley. You were with her and Dinkelacker when they went 
down to the boat ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And she said she had some business? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; and she met with the political leader. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he leave you after you got on the boat? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; after I left them, Vandenberg found I was 
on the boat, and Tillie Koch got a bawling out from him, because he 
said I was not in the movement, and she had no right to take me. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Whitley, can you develop the identification of 
this political leader on the boat ( 






r how 
, with 

■ went 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3917 

Mr. Whitley. I believe you said that at the time lie called for 
(he letter you did not know him, but he told you he wanted the 
letter from Mr. Vandenberg and you gave it to him? 

Miss Vookos. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not know the contents of that letter, did 
you? 

Miss Vooros. All I know is that it was in a long brown envelope 
addressed to Stuttgart. 

Mr. Whitley. It did not have any name on it? 

Miss Vooros. No; it said, "V. D. A." in Stuttgart. 

Mr. Whitley. Y r ou did not know what his position was or who 
the man Mas at the time he called for the letter? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Y r ou later found that out on the trip over? 

Miss Vooros. Y^es. 

Mr. Whitley. That he was the political leader on the boat? 

Miss Vooros. Y^es; because it was the pictures that Winterscheidt 
had given me previous to that, and his picture was among them. 

Mr. Whitley. Why did Winterscheidt give you that picture, Miss 
Vooros ? 

Miss Vooros. I do not know why he gave it to me. They were 
pictures of our movement, so we could show it to 

Mr. Whitley. He gave you the pictures so you could show the 
people in Germany, so you could explain to them what your move- 
ment in the United States was doing, is that right? 

Miss Vooros. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. On the trip over, how did you find out what this 
man's position was? Was that in conversation with other members 
of the group? 

Miss Vooros. No. There was one girl, a very active member of the 
bund, Margaret Scheck 

Mr. Whitley. Where was she from? 

Miss Vooros. New York, Manhattan. That is, she works there. 
She lives in Ridgewood. She knows about everything there is to 
know about the bund. But I made mention of it; that is, why did 
they not give this letter to Margaret Scheck and they said that 
she was a little too careless about matters. 

Mr. Whitley. As far as you know, were you the only one of the 
group who had such a letter to deliver ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; I think I was the only one. 

Mr. Whitley. And on the trip over, you found out that this man 
was known as the political leader on the boat, is that right? 

Miss Vooros. The political leader; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. But you did not find out his name? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you see him any more on the boat? Did you 
see him around on the boat? 

Miss Vooros. I saw him in uniform, because they were voting while 
we were on the way, they were voting on the Anschluss. 

Mr. Whitley. On the Austrian Anschluss ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That was on the trip going over? 



3918 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And the members of the crew voted, did they? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; they all voted. 

Mr. Whitley. And who was in charge of that meeting ? Did you 
attend the meeting where they voted ? 

Miss Vooros. No. I was a citizen of the United States, and I could 
not. 

Mr. Whitley. You could not vote? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Were any members of the group, the 15 boys and 
15 girls that you were with, in attendance at the meeting or the vote? 

Miss Vooros. Some of them attended the meeting, I know. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not' know whether any of them voted or 
not? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. But you do know that the crew of the ship on your 
trip over took a vote? 

Miss Vcoros. Yes. Also the passengers, the passengers who were 
German citizens. 

Mr. Whitley. The passengers who were German citizens also 
voted ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was there much discussion about that voting? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. They all thought that it was going to be 100 
percent, but there were three who were against it. So I wanted to 
know why. 

Mr. Whitley. There were three votes against the Anschluss? 

Miss Vooros. There were three votes against the Anschluss. They 
thought it was just someone trying to be funny and trying to find out 
whether the noes would come out on the vote. 

Mr. Whitley. And did they come out? 

Miss Vooros. They did ; three of them. 

Mr. Whitley. Was there any comment made about the fact that it 
was not 100 percent? 

Miss Voorcs. No; but they took it for granted that someone was 
just trying to be different. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know who conducted the meeting at which 
the vote was taken? 

Miss Vooros. I was not there, but I know the political leader did. 

Mr. Whitley. You heard that? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not see it ? 

Miss Vooros. No ; I did not see it, but that is what he is there for. 
There is a political leader, you see. There are two men on board 
ship, on each German ship, a political leader and a propaganda 
leader. The propaganda leader is the one that holds all the speeches. 

Mr. Whitley Do they keep in touch when those boats are in the 
harbor of New York with the bund leaders? 

Miss Vooros. They are in constant touch with them. 

Mr. Whitley. The bund leaders go down to the boat and meet these 
men? 

Miss Vooros. Yps. The mT>naganda leaders of the boats come to 
our meetings and hold speeches. 



& mat 
tbesi 
Ik] 

Jlr.1T 

few, 






UX AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3919 



Mr. Whitley. You mean when the boats are docked in New York, 
the leaders off the boats come to the bund meetings? 
)}([. I Miss Vooros. I have seen them in Kuhn's office. 

Mr. Whitley. You have seen them in Kuhn's office? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How did you know who they were? 

Miss Vooros. Because I know some of them. On every German 
ship there are these leaders and they are always in contact. For 
instance, the steamship llama — well, I did not know that one. But 
on the steamship Colwribus a very active member of the Nazi Party 
here, too; he always makes the anti-Masonic speeches, because he is 
well trained in that, and whenever the boat is in he goes from group 
to group. They call special meetings and he lectures them. 

Mr. Whitley. He makes the speeches to the American groups ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Now. getting back to the trip over, you had been 
warned and you assumed that all the other members of the group had 
been warned, not to let any one know what the purpose was, is that 
right ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have any instructions as to how to conduct 
yourself on board ship? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; we were to be very careful. We had the freedom 
of the entire ship. 

Mr. Whitley. What class did you travel? 

Miss Vooros. We traveled third class, but we were always up with 
the captain. 

Mr. Whitley. You had the run of the ship ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. Some of the girls wanted to go swimming, and 
they were allowed to go in the first-class swimming pool. 

Mr. Whitley. There were no questions asked? 

Miss Vooros. No ; we had dinner with the captain several times. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, he knew what the group was? 

Miss Vooros. He was well aware of the fact ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Who furnished your transportation? You did not 
buy your own ticket, did you? 

Miss Vooros. No. That was supplied by Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, so far as you know, no transporta- 
:ion was charged ? 

Miss Vooros. Dinkelacker said Germany was doing quite a bit for 
us, making it possible for us to come over there, and we were to try 
3ur best. 

Mr. Whitley. The trip did not cost you, at least up to this point, 
a cent? 

Miss Vooros. Did not cost us anything; no. 

Mr. Whitley. And in addition to the transportation, they had 
given you $20 for the trip, is that right ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You had to buy your own passport ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; I got my own passport. 

Mr. Whitley. Out of the $20 that they gave you ? 

Miss Vooros. No ; I had my own money. 



>ys and 
ie vote? 

oted or 

on your 
10 were 
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gl 

fbe 100 
inted to 

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They 



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3920 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. I think it would be advisable to have the name of 
the captain, if you have it. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. Do you recall the name of the captain ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; Captain Koch. 

Mr. Whitley. Captain Koch was the captain of the Hamburg? 

Miss Vooros. The S. S. Hamburg. 

Mr. Whitley. Returning again to the matter of the expenses, do 
you know whether that $20 which was given you and the sums of 
money which were given the other members of this group — do you 
know who supplied that money? ^ 

Miss Vooros. The bund. 

Mr. Whitley. That came from the bund, in the United States? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that just an assumption on your part, or did 
someone tell you that? 

Miss Vooros. We were told that the bund was giving us the money. 

Mr. Whitley. Who told you that? 

Miss Vooros. Mr. Dinkelacker. 

Mr. Whitley. Who told you that the German Government was 
furnishing the transportation? 

Miss Vooros. That came, I think, with the letter that Hugo Haas 
sent us. He said that we had no other alternative but to make 
a good impression on the Nazi officials, because Germany was making 
it possible for us to take the trip. 

Mr. Whitley. Germany was making it possible for you to take 
the trip? 

Miss Vooros. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. By way of furnishing your transportation over 
there? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. At least that was the inference that you drew? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. And then they were giving us money in Ger- 
many to get along on. 

Mr. Whitley. What were your instructions as to how to conduct 
yourself on shipboard? 

Miss Vooros. We were to be very careful because we found out 
that Mr. Jacobs, Schmeling's trainer, was on board. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that Mr. Joe Jacobs? 

Miss Vooros. Joe Jacobs was on board. 

Mr. Whitley. He was on the same ship with you ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. He was going over. And we were to be very 
careful, because he was Jewish. 

Mr. Whitley. And you were not to wear your uniforms on board, 
is that right? 

Miss Vooros. No. But we had a certain routine. At 12 o'clock 
at night, two or three times a week, after every one had retired, we 
had to get up, put on our uniforms, and go out on the front of the 
ship, and stand in line formation. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, after the boat left, during the day 
you did not have any training or any drills or anything of that 
kind. 

Miss Vooros. No ; not the first couple of days. 

Mr. Whitley. And then after that, on two or three occasions, late 
at night, they had you put on your uniforms. 






4t« 

or >i 



:o Ha: 

O link 

inakii 
to (afc 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3921 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that both the boys and the girls? 

Miss Vooros. Both the boys and the girls. And we had to go 
out in front of the ship, and one boy and one girl would stand on 
guard on the stairs. 

Mr. Whitley. What would you do, just go through some drill 
formation ? 

Miss Vooros. Drill formation, yes; and they were telling us how 
we should act when we arrived in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. They gave you instructions as to how to conduct 
yourself over there? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the tenor of those instructions? 

Miss Vooros. What is that? 

Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of those instructions as to how 
you were to conduct yourself when you got over there ? 

Miss Vooros. We had to dress in full uniform; and they told us 
about right turn and left turn and marching; that when these Nazi 
officials would meet us aboard, we had to make a good impression. 

Mr. Whitley. They wanted the Amercan group to make a good 
impression on the Nazi officials? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. On the trip over, were you given any lectures or 
any training? 

Miss Vooros. We had one. They thought this would be important. 
We had to know the name of all of our leaders here in this country; 
who the fuehrer was in this country and all along down the line, 
starting from Kuhn. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they give you instructions as to who the Ameri- 
can leaders were, on the way over? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. They gave us a sort of a little test. We were 
j n fe told who was the fuehrer and who was the secretary, and all the way 
down the line. 

Mr. Whitley. And that was so that you would be thoroughly 
familiar with the organization? 
, ,j Miss Vooros. In case they asked us. 

Mr. Whitley. Were there any other incidents that occurred on 
shipboard going over? 

Miss Vooros. Mr. Dinkelacker made it clear to us that it was a 
little vacation for him. At least, he told us that he was having a 
good time. He was found in bed with one of the leaders about the 
sixth day that we were going. He was found in bed with one of the 
leaders. She was only 17 years old. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that a New York girl ? 

Miss Vooros. She was from the Bronx. 

Mr. Whitley. What happened as a result of that ? 

Miss Vooros. They called a meeting and they told us what we were 
supposed to do about that. I stated that he was our youth leader and 
we were supposed to look up to him and that was not very nice. But 
they told us that we were to keep our mouths shut about it. That 
is what Mrs. Klapproth said. She called a special meeting and told 
us we were not to mention a word about it. 

This girl's cabin was right across the way from mine. I took a 
pitcher of water and wet the entire bed. They sort of squealed on 



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lY'l ' 
nfii 



the da; 



3922 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

me and said that I did it. She came over to me and asked me why 
I did it, and I said that it would be a good excuse for the girl to 
sleep some place else. 

Mr. Thomas. Let me ask this question. Mrs. Klapproth is the wife 
of August Klapproth; is that right? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. And he is the incorporator of Camp Nordland, and is 
now trying to get a liquor license from the State of New Jersey for 
that place? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. When did you arrive, to the best of your recollec- 
tion, in Germany? 

Miss Vooros. Eight days later, the 11th. 

Mr. Whitley. The 11th of April 1938? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What was your port of arrival ? 

Miss Vooros. Coxhaven. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have any instructions from Dinkelacker or 
anyone else as to how you were to get off the boat ? 

Miss Vooros. No; we were dressed in full uniform; knapsack and 
everything on. We were not allowed to leave the ship with the 
passengers. We had to wait, I think it was 4 hours before we left 
the ship, when these Nazi officials came on board. Hugo Haas was 
among them. 

Mr. Whitley. He was one of the Nazi officials who came on board 
to greet you? 

Mr. Whitley. And they kept you on board until about 1 hours 
after all the other passengers had gone? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. They looked us over. I had one of these small 
American flags in the lapel of my uniform jacket. He came over — 
I was not the only one; there were some others — he came over and 
said I should take that American flag off; what was I trying to do? 
By wearing it I would insult the German Government, because they 
were the ones that made it possible for us to come over there; that I 
was insulting national socialism, and I should take it off my jacket, 

Mr. Whitley. So, 4 hours after the boat docked, did you all march 
off together? 

Miss Vooros. No; Mr. Dinkelacker made mention that Kuhn was in 
Berlin and I think Dinkelacker was to see Kuhn, to see that every- 
thing went along smoothly ; that we had arrived. We had 2 weeks' 
vacation and we could go wherever we wanted. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you heard Dinkelacker say that 
Kuhn was in Berlin at that time? 

Miss Vooros. Kuhn was in Berlin at that time. He left in Feb- 
ruary. 

Mr. Whitley. Kuhn had left in February 1938 to go to Germany? 
Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And he was still there? 
Miss Vooros. He was still there. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you go off the boat — or what did you do after 
you got off the boat? 

Miss Vooros. We went to Hamburg? 
Mr. Whitley. By train or bus? 
Miss Vooros. By train; special train. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3923 



Mr. Whitley. You went directly to Hamburg? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In your uniforms? 

Mi-s Vooros. In uniforms. And we were assigned to our quarters. 
We lived with people. 

Mr. Starnes. I should like to ask one or two questions. Did you 
wear your uniforms at any time aboard ship? 

Mi^s Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. AVhen? 

Miss Vooros. After 12 o'clock midnight, when we had to go in line. 

Mr. Starnes. Why? 

Miss Vooros. Well, we would have to get in line formation and 
march around the boat, around the front of the ship. 

Mr. Starnes. And that was after midnight? 

Miss Vooros. After every one had retired ; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Did Mr. Dinkelacker warn you against associating 
with anybody else aboard the ship beside those you have mentioned? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. We were supposed to be careful with whom 
we talked, especially Mr. Jacobs. 

Mr. Starnes. What Jacobs is that? 

Miss Vooros. Joe Jacobs. He was manager for Max Schmeling. 

Mr. Staiines. Why did he want you to stay away from Joe Jacobs, 
because he was an American citizen? 

Miss Vooros. Because he was a Jew, we were told. 

Mr. Starnes. You were told he was a Jew, and you should stay 
away from him? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; that it would not be any good to associate with 
him, because he was quite friendly with us. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know who made it possible for you to make 
the trip to Germany; how many people cooperated or what organ- 
izations cooperated, or what governments cooperated? Can you tell 
us that? 

Miss Vooros. There was the Hamburg- American Line. We went 
on the railway, and the German Government. 

Mr. Starnes. What railway is that, the German Tourist Railway? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. We were given tickets after we arrived, so that 
we could have free transportation in Germany. 

Mr. Starnes. Did the bund have anything to do with arranging 
your trip? 

Miss Vooros. They gave us the money. They gave the girls the 
j money to come to New York, from there to leave to go to Europe. 

Mr. Starnes. What about this V. D. A.? 

Miss Vooros. That, is the V. D. A. ; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. The bund, the V. D. A., the German Tourist Railway 
Information Service, and the Hamburg Steamship Line all combined 
to make it possible for you to take this trip ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. They were the agencies that combined and placed 
their services at your disposal for this trip? 

Miss Vooros. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. You were given some spending money after your 
arrival in Germany, were you not? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. That was after we were in Hamburg. 

Mr. Whitley. How much were you given on that occasion ? 






3924 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Vooros. We were given 50 marks. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know the source of that money? 

Miss Vooros. That came from the V. D. A. 

Mr. Whitley. From the V. D. A. office? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. The committee will recess until 1 : 30 p. m. 

(Whereupon, the committee recessed until 1:30 p. m.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

The committee met pursuant to taking of a recess at 1 : 30 p. m. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order, please. 
Mr. Whitley. Will you continue? 

TESTIMONY OF MISS HELEN VOOROS— Resumed 

Mr. Whitley. Miss Vooros, the uniform which you have on is the 
official uniform of the German-American Bund, the Youth Move- 
ment ? 

Miss Vooros. Not at the time I was a member : when I came back 
from Germany this was given to me 

Mr. Whitley. That was given to you? 

Miss Vcoros. When I came back from Germany it was given to me 
by Hugo Haas. 

Mr. Whitley. When you returned from Germany Hugo Haas gave 
you that uniform? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And that is the official uniform of the Hitler Youth 
Movement ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Is there any difference between that uniform, the 
official German urn form of the Youth Movement in Germany and the 
uniform of the Youth Movement in this country? 

Miss Vooros. Well, this is made in Germany [indicating]. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that the only difference? 

Miss Vooros. No. You see the skirt has two pockets, two side 
pockets. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Miss Vooros. These two side pockets [indicating]. And it has this 
here [indicating] ; the American uniform didn't have this. 

Mr. Whitley. Substantially the same in both countries? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Except in minor details? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The girls in the Youth Movement in Germany use 
the dark skirt and white shirt? \\>^ 

Miss Vooros. Yes. %\ 

Mr. Whitley. And the same Ifr §_ 

Miss Vooros (interposing). They haven't got this, the knot [in- \I. j 
dicating]. j(; er[ 

Mr. Whitley. They do not use that particular insignia? )[ L ^ 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. They have a plain knot. How about the knots? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3925 

Miss Vooros. They haven't the same knot we have here [indicat- 
ing] . 

I Sir. Whitley. Otherwise the uniform is practically the same in the 
United States and in Germany. 
Miss Vooros. Yes. 
Mr. "Whitley. And that was given to you; and that is the Hitler 
I youth's movement insignia? 

Miss Vooros. This [indicating] is the Hitler movement sign. 

Mr. Whitley. The same in Germany as in this country? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That is, the insignia? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You have some further insignia, have you? 

Miss Vooros. I have some further. 

Mr. Whitley. The swastika. 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, how about the uniform of the boys in the 
Youth Movement in Germany and in this country; is it the same 
uniform I 

Miss Vooros. It is identical, with the exception of these marks [in- 
dicating] . 

Mr. Whitley. The same difference that you testified between the 
uniform for the girls. 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The same difference exists in the boys' uniform? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you have this knot in your uniform ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Here are some pins and insignia [handing articles 
to witness]. Will you describe what they are; the swastika and the 
ii. the other pin with the swastika on it. 

Miss Vooros. This [indicating] was given to us before we left. 

This [indicating] is the sign of the winter relief fund. 

This button [indicating] was given to us in Germany. These were 
given to wear on the white shirts [indicating] . And we had to wear 
side this [indicating] over here. 

Mr. Starxes. What is the significance of it? 

Miss Vooros. What is what ? 

Mr. Starxes. What is the significance of it ? 

Miss Vooros. The German bow, it is called. 

Mr. Starxes. For identification? 

Mr. Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Starx t es. What about these buttons on the shirts, or whatever 
you call them 

Miss Vooros. Yes; they have the German inscription, "B. D. M." 

Mr. Starxes. What is that for ? 

Miss Vooros. That is the Youth Movement. 

Mr. Starxes. Where was the uniform made ? 

Miss Vooros. It is made in Germany ; the skirt [indicating] is made 
in Germany. 

Mr. Starxes. What is the "B. D. M." ; what does it stand for ? 

Miss Vooros. This [indicating] is the division of the girls' group; 
and this, the boys' group in the bund Youth Movement. 

94931— 39— vol. 6 15 



3926 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. And all this represents the bund ? 

Miss Vooros. It was given us in Germany. 

Mr. Starnes. To be worn over here ? 

Miss Vooros. To be worn here. There was to be a plan that they 
were going to be sent ; they had made arrangements under which they 
were going to be sent from Germany to here. 

Mr. Whitley. You mentioned this morning in your testimony the 
fact that 3 r ou were given some photographs by Mr. Vandenberg. 

Miss Vooros. Mr. Winterscheidt. 

Mr. Whitley. To take over to exhibit to members of the National 
Socialists in Germany, particularly friends of his, to demonstrate to 
them and others what the German-American Bund and its various 
divisions is doing in this country. 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And these are photographs which he gave you, are 
they ? 

Miss Vooros. These [indicating] ? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. These photographs are supposed to represent scenes 
of German-American Bund activities in this country? 

Miss Vocros. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Will j^ou please take each one of them and tell what 
the scene represents? 

Miss Vooros. This one 

The Chairman. That will not mean anything in the record. 

Mr. Whitley. The photographs represent scenes of German- 
American Bund activities in this country? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Suppose you give them to the reporter and let him 
mark them. 

(The photographs were marked, respectively, "Exhibit 3 and 
3-A to 3-Y, inclusive.") 

Mr. Whitley. Getting back to the trip, you had gotten off the 
boat in Hamburg, I believe. 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. After you landed in Germany. 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And where did you go after you arrived in Ham- 
burg? 

Miss Vooros. We were invited to visit the homes of youth's leaders 
in Hamburg. 

Mr. Whitley. You were split up and assigned to various homes 
of youth's leaders? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you stayed there a few days? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; that is right, and then had a meeting before 
we left with Hugo Haas, who was going to be the leader in Ger- 
many, the camp leader, and would give all the instructions and 
necessary particulars; and lie said that we were going to take a 
ride over to the Elbe; and we had cameras, which were all taken 
away from us, every camera, because they were building ships, and 
they weren't allowing anyone to get any information or any pictures. 

And after that trip was over we went to a movie; and that was — 
everything was free. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3927 

Mr. Whitley. You had no expense? 

Miss Vooros. No expense. 

Mr. AYhitley. Everything was free? 

Miss Vooros. We were told that we were going to have 2 weeks 
up there at that time, to do what we pleased, then after that we 
ay ere to go 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). You were just to visit around. 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And get acclimated. 

Miss Vooros. In the homes of some of the people, and we were to 
have some time to visit around, and they were to go to the station and 
meet Mr. Dinkelacker and then I was to return to Berlin. That was 
the first time we were in Hamburg. The next day we were to meet 
Kuhn before we had to go to Berlin. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you were just taking advantage of 
the vacation given you in traveling around and visiting different 
places. 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That was after you had been in Hamburg how long? 

Miss Vooros. Two days. 

Mr. Whitley. Two days ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes — no ; a day and a half. 

Mr. Whitley. And while you were there, in whose home did you 
stay — you and the girls ? 

Miss Vooros. In one of the leader's home. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you remember the name of the leader? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. And then you were to come back, after a day and a 
I half, after the group was broken up visiting relatives, and you were 
then to reassemble, were you ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And proceed to Berlin ? 

Miss Vooros. You see, my tour was made out for me ; I was to go 
to north Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. Who made out the tour for you ? 

Miss Vooros. Mr. Vandenberg. 

Mr. Whitley. Before you left this country ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That was at the time they were to make visits to 
relatives and friends. 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You knew exactly where you were going? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You had been given the photographs ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you had a mission to fulfill ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. So you proceeded to Berlin at the same time, the 
same day, all together ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Dinkelacker was going to meet you — knew you were 



coming. 



Miss Vooros. Yes. 
Mr. Whitley. That is, the fuehrer of the German-American Bund, 
that was in Germany. 









3928 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

All right, continue on with your story. 

Miss Vooros. And we went to Stettin's ; they took me out to Dinkel- 
acker's. 

Mr. Whitley. They were friends — — 

Miss Vooros (interposing). Relatives of Mr. Vandenberg; the 
names were Wegner, and they took me to Dusseldorf, and I met 
friends of Mr. Vandenberg's and a youth leader, Renier Leprell, 
and I told them what we were doing here, and they asked me what 
specifically I was doing with my group in this country, and I ex- 
plained that I did not go very strong on politics; that we had some 
embroidery work that I was doing with my group of girls; that I 
did not go much into the political angle, and they thought I should ; 
they did not agree ; they said everything I did was wrong and that 
they were going to show me what to do; and they told me that I 
should teach German culture, and tell them they were Aryans and 
emphasize that Aryans were different from others. And we were 
given some books by Julius Streicher. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they also suggest that you ought to tell the 
members of your group — teach them race hatred? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; Jews particularly were the ones we would 
have to deal with. 

Mr. Whitley. Julius Streicher is the man who set up the agency 
for disseminating violent literature of antiracial and religious type? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you show them the photographs that you had 
with you? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; and they were quite interested. 

Mr. Whitley. The photographs of your activities in this country? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; and I brought over some books, yearbooks of 
the bund. 

Mr. Whitley. For 1937 and 1938? 

Miss Vooros. For 1937 and 1938. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Miss Vooros. And the 1937 book had the picture of Mr. Kuhn 
with Hitler, and they were familiar with that; in fact, everything 
that we showed them they seemed to be not a bit surprised; they 
acted as if they already knew everything that was going on. 

And in Hamburg we met two Nazi officers, and they just greeted 
us as if they knew everything. 

Mr. Whitley. That was while you were in Hamburg ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whiley. And every time you had occasion to show them J' ; 
anything they seemed to know all about it? 

Miss Vooros. All about it; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Where you were? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And what you went there for? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That was the recognition you received every place? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. All right; continue the story about the meeting at 
Dusseldorf. You were telling us that you told them that you did 
not stress the political, much. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3929 

Miss Vooros. Yes. They said I should teach more of the na- 
tional socialism ; that I would have to pay attention to socialism, and 
acted surprised, and were going to send me books, more books. I 
haven't received them, though they said they were going to send 
me some books, and I was to give the books to the children so they 
should study them. 

Mr. Whitley. And they explained pretty well what the activities 
you were to carry on; and you told them what you were doing? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And what was the next thing? 

Miss Vooros. I went to my relatives, and I stayed there for 4 or 5 
days. 

The Chairman. To your relatives? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; to my relatives. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, the witness has requested that not 
too much be asked about that. 

The Chairman. I understand. 

Mr. Whitley. Continue on. 

Miss Vooros. And it was time again for us to meet in Berlin ; we 
had to be in Berlin on the 29th day of April, and that was about 
the time when we were to meet Adolph Hitler, because May 1 was a 
very important day for us, we were to meet the fuehrer, Adolph 
Hitler ; and we stayed there 2 days, I think, and were getting ready. 
And we got to the stadium, the Olympic Stadium, at 6 o'clock and at 
8 o'clock we saw Adolph Hitler; he came in with the uniformed 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). How did you enter the stadium? 
Did you march in or did you go in just as a group ? 

Miss Vooros. We went in just as a group. We had special seats 
right under the fuehrer, I should say; he was about over us. He 
was standing on some platform and we were sitting down below. 
And Dr. Goebbels, Mr. Himmler, and Dr. Ley were all seated on the 
platform; and they were yelling for about one-half an hour, and 
they could not keep still. And they were told to be quiet, and after 
that, after about half an hour, some of the S. S. men came. 

Mr. Whitley. What do you mean by S. S. men ? 

Miss Vooros. Some of the men in uniform around the fuehrer. 

Mr. Whitley. You mean bodyguards? 

Miss Vooros. Bodyguards, and one of the officers came up to the 
bodyguards, ran up to him, and said something to him, and he 
saluted us. 

Mr. Whitley. Hugo Haas was in charge of your group? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And he told one of the bodyguards to notify the 
f euhrer that the Amerigan group was there, and he then saluted your 
group ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was Dinkelacker with you at the time ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; he was. 

Mr. Whitley. Dinkelacker and Hugo Haas, in charge of the group ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was any other person particularly in charge of your 
group at that time? 

Miss Vooros. No. 



3930 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Just Hugo Haas ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; we had received invitations. 

Mr. Whitley. You had received individual invitations? 

Miss Vooros. Individual invitations; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know who the invitations were sent by? 

Miss Vooros. By the propaganda office. 

Mr. Whitley. The propaganda office ? 

Miss Vooros. Dr. Goebbels' office. 

Mr. Whitley. And every member of the American group also re- 
ceived invitations to be present? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. To see the fuehrer on that occasion? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; and when he gave the salute, why we saluted 
back ; and Goebbels looked down and smiled ; and it so happened that 
it was meant for me ; I looked different from the other group, and lie 
looked at me, because I did not have blond hair like the other Ger- 
mans, I guess, and Dr. Goebbels was staring at me; and I looked 
around to see if he were looking at me, but he was looking at me, and 
be smiled in that direction, and it was for me. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you smile back at him ? 

Miss Vooros. Oh, yes; and as I think now, I realize it was better 
for me not to be out with him. 

Mr. Whitley. Continue on, will you, with the account of the meet- 



ing. 



Miss Vooros. When we got another invitation- 



Mr. Whitley. How long did this meeting last ? 

Miss Vooros. Oh, it lasted about 2 hours. 

Mr. Whitley. Wlio spoke? 

Miss Vooros. Hitler spoke and said that he was interested — he was 
interested in the youth movement — and that we were all there now 
and were to work with him. 

Mr. Whitley. And he was particularly interested in the fact — in 
making his speech, in referring to the American youth group? 

Miss Vooros. He made a speech; said that he was the fuehrer of 
eveiy German everywhere ; whether he was at the South Pole or the 
North Pole, they personally felt that Adolph Hitler was their head. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he make any reference to citizenship in this 
country ? 

Miss Vooros. No; he didn't. 

Mr. Whitley. He did not make any distinction between Germans, 
no matter what country, where they lived or where their citizenship 
might be? 

Miss Vooros. No; that they all knew that Adolph Hitler was their 
fuehrer. 

Mr. Whitley. The}' were all Germans, and he was the leader. 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Incidentally, Miss Vooros, you speak and under- 
stand German perfectly? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. So in his speech, in German, you had no trouble 
following it whatsoever? 

Miss Vooros. None at all. 

Mr. Whitley. Continue on. 



Here 



Mr. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 393I 



Miss Vooros. Well, wo loft the stadium about 11 o'clock and had 
another invitation to Dr. Goobbels personally to go to the Lust Gar- 
dens in Berlin; and the fuehrer, Adolph Hitler, spoke 

I Mr. YViim f.y. This was the first meeting of the youth group? 
Miss Vooros. Yes. 
Mr. Whttley. Representing all the Youth Movement? 
Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mi-. Whitley. Was it just German or from all countries? 

Miss Yooros. From all over the world; they had come there from 
[Rumania. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, there were groups sent from other 
countries; not only your group, which were to receive training at 
this time in Germany; there were other groups from other countries? 

Miss Yooros. From Rumania, in the camp, the place where I said 
we were to go. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, they were brought from other coun- 
tries to Germany to receive training. 

Miss Yooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. All right ; do you recall some of the things he said ? 

Miss Yooros. Well, he referred to the American group being there, 
and said that they should appreciate what was being done; that was 
during his speech, and Lena Reiferstapher was photographing him. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was she? 

Miss Vooros. She was taking pictures while he was speaking; she 
had come with a camera. 

Mr. Whitley. Was she on the platform? 

Miss Vooros. She was on the platform. 

Mr. Whitley. She was on the platform with him? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. She is the one whose name you frequently see 
mentioned? 

Miss Yooros. Yes; that is right, and we saw Goering for the 
first time. And, of course, this lasted for 3 or 4 hours, and we had 
marched out during the day and we had on these uniforms, which 
were different from some of the Germans, and they gathered around ; 
it was a big affair. 

Then we were to have dinner there. There was a place reserved 
for us, for the German-American group. 

Mr. Whitley. You had special reserved positions? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; and we had a big menu like that [indicating], 
about this big. And, we were nearly starved ; we did not have any- 
thing to eat since morning and I thought I was going to have a real 
meal and all they had was sauerkrout and pigs knuckles. 

The Chairman. Let us ^et down to the essentials, Mr. Whitley. 

Mr. Whitley. Where did you go after that time? 

Miss Yooros. There was a social that evening and we were gathered 
there in the evening, and were asked to give some songs. And I 
wanted to sing a song — I suggested we sing Home on the Range; I 
thought that was a good one and they asked us to sing a German 
song, which wo didn't know, and they just made fun of it; said that 
was what was going on in America. 

Mr. Whitley. That was what was carried on over here? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 



3932 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. And when you left then you were to go to camp? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You left that night? 

Miss Vooros. That night. 

Mr. Whitley. How did you go to camp ? 

Miss Vooros. By bus. 

Mr. Whitley. Where was the camp located? 

Miss Vooros. Near Berlin, at Hubertros H. Storkon. 

Mr. Whitley. You were quartered in what kind of an arrange- 
ment ? 

Miss Vooros. This was a villa. 

Mr. Whitley. Approximately how many trainees were there in 
camp ? 

Miss Vooros. How many youths? 

Mr. Whitley. Members of the Youth Movement, altogether? 

Miss Vooros. Well, you see, there were some from Rumania, about 
4 boys from Rumania and our 30. 

Mr. Whitley. The American group of 30? 

Miss Vooros. The American group of 30 ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And who was in charge of the trainees at that 
time? 

Miss Vooros. Hugo Haas. 

Mr. Whitley. Hugo Haas? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And was Dinkelacker? 

Miss Vooros. No, he wasn't ; he left 2 weeks before the group. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, will you describe for the committee the nature 
of the training you received and any particular lectures that you had, 
the type of lectures you received? 

Miss Vooros. Well, at first, when we first came to camp, the day we 
got there, we were to have a speech, and in that speech we were to 
have a report. The speech consisted of the fact, one of the first facts, 
that America wasn't a German-speaking country ; they regretted that it 
spoke English, and of the fact that Germans when they were living 
in other countries — it often happened that they did not continue to 
speak German; that they were not like the English; that where the 
English went they still remained English. And that was why England 
was able to build up its colonies. 

Mr. Whitley. That was why England built up colonies? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; because Englishmen always stuck by their home 
and Germans didn't. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Starnes. Who delivered that speech ? 

Miss Vooros. Aaxman. 

Mr. Starnes. Who was he? 

Miss Vooros. From the propaganda department. 

Mr. Starnes. This was at the camp ? 

Miss Vooros. He came to the camp later. 

Mr. Starnes. Was he a member of the bund ? 

Miss Vooros. He was formerly a unit leader in Ridgewood. 

Mr. Starnes. Does he live in Germany? 

Miss Vooros. He does. 

Mr. Starnes. Is he a German citizen ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3933 

Miss Vooros. He always was. 

Mr. Starnes. Always was? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Staknes. And he was formerly a leader of the bund movement 

in Ridge wood? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. This particular speech was delivered by whom? 

Miss Vooros. Aaxman. 

Mr. Whitley. And he said one of the reasons why the English had 
built up their colonies was because English always were English? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And Germans had not always done that; and for 
that reason they didn't have a colonial empire ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; or they would have been just as big. 

Mr. Whitley. And that was what he was trying to impress upon 
you — that the members of the youth movement in the bund should 
remain German ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whiti :ey. Will you continue ? Did you have to take an exam- 
ination later? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; the same day we had to take an examination. In 
that examination the boys and girls who stood the highest would go 
to Stuttgart for further training from very important leaders from 
the youth movement. 

Mr. Whitley. From the group who stood the highest ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Let me clear that up for the committee, Miss Vooros. 
The original 15 boys and 15 girls who were selected to go from this 
country were selected because they were leaders, outstanding leaders 
in this country. 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And after you got to the camp, outside of Berlin, 
for the training there, they were to select a few of that group ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And how many were they going to select from each 
group ? 

Miss Vooros. I don't know ; there were four girls, four or five girls, 
as I recall. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, they were going to select a small 
group from that number ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. From the 30, who had a chance to go to Stuttgart 
for further training? 

Miss Vooros. For further training. 

Mr. Whitley. To take special training? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. All right ; continue on with the nature of the instruc- 
tions you were to receive at the camp. 

Miss Vooros. Well, the reports were made that the girls who were 
selected, after the 6 weeks, would leave for Stuttgart. 

Mr. Whitley. And who was selected for that? 

Miss Vooros. I have the list; I have the list there. I do not know 
that I can name them all. 



3934 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. They were all American representatives, of tho 
American group ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; they were. 

Mr. Whitley. Suppose you give the names of those you can recall. 

Miss Vooros. Else Edrian, Florence Seidler, Gisela Britz, Esther 
Maass. 

I can't recall the others now. 

Mr. Whitley. There were three or four ? 

Miss Vooros. There were four or five girls. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't recall just now who the others are? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Could you take their names, and give the entire list? 

The Chairman. Suppose you give the reporter the list, and just 
let it go in the record. 

Mr. Starnes. I think the members of the group should be in the 
record. 

The Chairman. They are included in that list? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

The Chairman. Have you seen that list? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; I have. 

The Chairman. Is it a correct list? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. Just hand it to the reporter and let the names be 
copied in the record. 

(The list of names referred to follow :) 

Else Adrian, Sophie Warming, Gisela Britz, Florence Seider, Esther Mass, 
Wilma Kammel, Ruth Midler, Elly Gunkel, Margaret Scheek, Vera Voge, Hed- 
wig Klapproth, Mrs. Schmidt, Helen Vooros, Fred Schlosser, Hogo Steimle, Paul 
Ochojsky, Herbert Mai, Edward Reichel, Willy Hahn, K. A. Kusche, Royal 
Schlote, Harold Werle, Willy Heineman, Walter Voge, Bodo Schmidt, William 
Sellin, Franz Nicolay. 

Mr. Whitley. Miss Vooros, were you one of the group who was 
selected for further training? 

Miss Vooros. I was, but I had an accident that evening; I injured 
my foot and I told them that I did not want to go; I didn't want 
to go. 

Mr. Whitley. You had hurt your foot and did not want to go ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; I had had an accident. 

Mr. Whitley. And you gave that as a good reason for not going. 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And so you were dropped from the list of names 
that were to go to Stuttgart for further training? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. AVhitley. All right. Now will you tell us something further 
about the lectures and training and instructions you received during 
the 6 weeks that you were at the camp? 

Miss Vooros. It pertained mostly to national socialism and was 
antiracial and anti-Mason. 

The Chairman. Didn't they ridicule generally the Christian reli- 
gion ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, they did. 

Mr. Starnes. What do you mean by antiracial? 

Miss Vooros. Well, they upheld the race, the German race. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3935 

Mr. Staknes. Did they have anything particularly to say about 
other races \ 

Miss Vooros. Yes, they did. 

Mr. Starnes. What other race, and what did they say? 

Miss Vooros. About the Jews, first. They said we should consider 
the Jews just as we considered the colored race; that the Jews had 
the same blood; wasn't like ourselves. 

Mr. Starnes. Did they say how you should consider them, in what 
way you should consider them? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; that we should have nothing to do with them, 
and even if they were leaders in our country we should always re- 
member that they were trying to ruin our race; that they would ruin 
the girls who were of the Aryan race; and that we were Germans. 
And they were especially against, anti-Mason. 

Mr. Starnes. What did they have to say about Masons? 

Miss Vooros. Well, that they were organized to try to ruin every- 
thing; that they were to ruin girls, and they showed us pictures 
where they had tombs, where they showed us caskets and what had 
happened to someone who had been false to the initiation in Masonry, 
that their tongues had been cut out, or something like that, and that 
we should have nothing to do with Masons. 

Mr. Starnes. What else did they teach you ? 

Miss Vooros. Antireligion. 

Mr. Starnes. What did they say about religion ? 
• Miss Vooros. They said that religion, that national socialism — we 
would have no religion other than national socialism, because the 
national socialism would be the real church. 

Mr. Starnes. What if anything did they say about politics, party 
politics ? 

Miss Vooros. Well politics — democracy, they didn't think very much 
of democracy in this country. They said that national socialism was 
going to spread to other countries, and Germany was going to go for- 
ward ; that she would take Austria ; and, she has already gotten Austria. 
And she would get Czechoslovakia ; and she has taken Czechoslovakia. 
After Czechoslovakia, Danzig and the Polish Corridor; after that the 
African colonies; after they had gotten the African colonies there 
would be Schleswig-Holstein, the upper part of Germany and part of 
Denmark. Then the Scandinavian States, because it was up there that 
the German culture originated; and after that time Germany would 
look toward America, and that would be any time in 15 or 20 years, 
and they are leaving it up to us. It was the German-American Bund 
that was to cover enough territory, open up camps, buy property, each 
individual, so that we can say, "The majority here is German, and 
we want to belong to Germany." 

Mr. Starnes. They taught you German boys and girls that idea? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Did they say anything about establishing colonies in 
America ? 

Miss Vooros. We should do that. We should form groups, like in 
our camps. First of all, we should get bungalows, then a German man 
should open a store, little by little, and then the people should buy 
property around it. They are doing everything that has been said 
in Germany. They are buying property around camps. They are 



3936 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

trying to establish a German village, so that the Germans can exist 
unto themselves. 

Mr. Starnes. Do they say that you should trade with Germans ? 

Miss Vooros. Trade only with Germans. 

Mr. Starnes. Trade only with Germans ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. ' 

Mr. Starnes. And wherever it is possible to buy German-made 
products, that you should buy those products ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. But they did stress to you American boys and girls 
who were over there that you should trade with Germany ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Did they say anything about any organization being 
set up in America to promote that economic purpose? 

Miss Vooros. It was the bund. 

Mr. Starnes. The bund ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. They call it the D. K. V. 

Mr. Starnes. Did they say anything about who was to lead that 
movement in the United States? 

Miss Vooros. They spoke of the bund in general. 

Mr. Starnes. By the way, before you got off this boat, did Mr. 
Dinkelacker say anything about Fritz Kuhn being recognized as the 
leader of the bund in this country ? 

Miss Vooros. We were told that Fritz Kuhn is recognized in Ger- 
many as our fuehrer. He is our fuehrer. 

Mr. Starnes. Who told you that ? 

Miss Vooros. Dr. Froman. 

Mr. Starnes. Who is he ? 

Miss Vooros. He is a Nazi official from the propaganda ministry in 
Berlin. 

Mr. Starnes. Did he say that you should recognize Kuhn as a rep- 
resentative of the Nazi government or the Nazi ideology in this country ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; they did. 

Mr. Starnes. And the leader of that movement in this country? 

Miss Vooros. He is our leader. 

The Chairman. And the representative of Hitler? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. They spoke of him as if they were acquainted, 
and everything that is being said about him here, they don't pay any 
attention to that. 

Mr. Starnes. Did they tell you he should be recognized as the 
American fuehrer? 

Miss Vooros. He is recognized in Germany as the American fuehrer, 
and we are supposed to recognize him. 

Mr. Starnes. Did any other officials connected with the Nazi party 
or government make any statement to that effect, other than those that 
you have mentioned? 

Miss Vooros. Hugo Haas did also. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know why Kuhn was in Berlin at that time, 
or how long he was in Germany? 

Miss Vooros. Kuhn had left'Berlin, because previous to the time we 
left there there had been some discussion about noncitizens being mem- 
bers of the bund. 

Mr. Starnes. What was the discussion; do you know? 



t 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3937 

Miss Vooros. It was said that any German citizen is not allowed 
to be a member of the bund. There are still quite a few German 
citizens in the bund, and the bund would have a tremendous loss if 
they had to drop out. So Mr. Martin made a speech to us once, 
saying that Mr. Kuhn was going to take care of that matter and it 
was all in his hands. 

Mr. Starnes. Who is Mr. Martin ? 

Miss Vooros. Mr. Rudolph Martin, of New York. 

Mr. Starnes. Is he the district leader for the eastern part of the 
United States? 

Miss Vooros. He is the district leader for the eastern division; 
that is right. 

The Chairman. If you are through for the present, Mr. Starnes, I 
want to clear up a few things. 

You met a good many people who were in the bund while you 
were in the Youth Movement, did you not ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. What class of people generally belong to the bund? 
Are they the poorer class ? 

Miss Vooros. The working class. You see, some of the people are 
in the bund, I think, just because — most of them who are in the bund 
have delicatessens, and through belonging to the bund they have more 
customers. 

The Chairman. Generally speaking, you would say that it is the 
working class that belong to the bund ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That is the same class, I believe you said, that 
really form the strongest supporters of Hitler in Germany ? 

Miss Vooros. That is correct. 

The Chairman. While you were in the Youth Movement did you 
ever hear Dinkelacker or any of the leaders of it speak about coopera- 
tion between the bund and other organizations ? 

Miss Vooros. No. You see — well, there is another speech that I 
wanted to bring out. They said they never spoke against communism 
in Germany; and one of the men, Dr. Achsman, gave us this one: He 
said they never spread any hate about Stalin or communism in Russia, 
because they said national socialism is the higher ideals of com- 
munism, and that communism — with his clenched fist— that fist was 
generally open to the Nazi salute. 

The Chairman. So that they are about one and the same thing? 

Miss Vooros. One and the same thing; yes. 

The Chairman. It would be pleasing to the Communists to learn 
that. 

Mr. Whitley. That was the instruction you got from the propa- 
ganda institute in Germany? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. But I mean here in the United States, did you 
ever hear of Kunze, or any of them, cooperating with other groups — 
Ukranians, Italians, William Dudley Pelley, or any of the other 
groups in the United States ? 

Miss Vooros. The Italians are with us. Whenever we have our 
German day at Madison Square Garden, the Italians are all with us. 

Mr. Whitley. What groups of the Italians? 



3938 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Vooros. The Fascists. And I heard them mention something 
about — the post leaders were gathered once, and the Ku Klux Klan 
was mentioned, and they said that it was a little too radical for the 
bund. 

Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairman, I would like to return to that instruc- 
tion. 

You were talking about the instruction you were getting at this 
German camp for 6' weeks, and the type of instruction there. About 
when did you get disgusted with that kind of instruction? 

Miss Vooros. Don't you see, I went with that intention to Ger- 
many — of not returning any more. I thought I woidd take advan- 
tage of the trip. 

Mr. Mason. You went to take advantage of the trip to Germany, 
but you did not. intend, after you came back, to carry out this 
propaganda or to be a part of it any more? 

Miss Vooros. I had no intentions of doing that, 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, I think at this time it would be 
well to get Miss Vooros to identify some of this material. 

The Chairman. All rigth. Right there, there is a point that I 
think is at least important in my viewpoint, You said awhile ago 
that most of the members of the bund are from the working class? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Are the people to some extent unemployed or in 
distress ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; some of them are on relief. 

The Chairman. They are the poorer class of German who are on 
relief or in distress? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. In our group in south Brooklyn there are 
people whom I have supplied with food, and I had to pay the car- 
fare for some of the girls to come to the meeting. 

The Chairman. How do the leaders appeal to that class? What 
do they tell them as to the advantage of joining the bund? 

Miss Vooros. Well, if they join the bund, they have high hopes of 
the bund one day becoming something in this country : that the leaders 
of the bund wili be our future leaders, and they are giving them such 
high hopes, that if we come to live to the day, everything will be a 
day of plenty ; they will have jobs. 

The Chairman. They will have security? 

Miss Vooros. They will have security. 

The Chairman. And social justice? 

Miss Vooros. And social justice. 

The Chairman. So that really they are appealing to those people 
by promising them something? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And that causes them to join the bund in the 
hopes thit they will get something that they clo not now have? 

Miss Vooros. That is right. 

The Chairman. And do they tell them that the Jews are responsible 
for all their miseries? 

M^ss Vooros. Oh, ves; that the Jews are responsible for everything. 

The Chairman. That the Jews are responsible for all the hard 
times and that they ought to drive the Jews out, and then they 
TviH have a paradise in America? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; that is the substance. 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3939 

Mr. Whitley. That is the substance of their teaching? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Did they teach you that this same doctrine would 
apply to Germans in other nations? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And that they had a Youth Movement in other na- 
tions where Germans live? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. For instance, in Rumania all they hope 
for is to get King Carol on the throne. 

Mr. Starnes. Do they talk about a Youth Movement for German 
children in any other part of America than the United States; for 
instance, in South America? 

Miss Vooros. No. I forgot; Hugo Haas was leaving for Canada 
shortly after I had gone— I don't know whether he is there yet or 
not — to form an organization in Canada. 

Mr. Starnes. Did they say anything about starting an organiza- 
tion in South America? 

Miss Vooros. No ; they did not. 

Mr. AYhitley. Miss Vooros, I will show you, for identification, a 
book which is captioned in German — I cannot read it. It bears the 
signature of Theo. Dinkelacker. Will you give us the title of that 
book and what the inscription written in there by Mr. Dinkelacker 
says ? 

Miss Vooros. It is the German Workers' Party. This was given 
me in 1938, before I left for Germany, because I started with 13 girls 
and left with 50 girls. 

Mr. Whitley. You had built up your party to 50 ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And what does the inscription say ? 

Miss Vooros. It was given me on the Youth day, and was given 
me for the best organizing. 

Mr. Whitley. And it is signed by Theo. Dinkelacker? 

Miss Vooros. It is signed by Theo. Dinkelacker, the Youth leader. 

Mr. Whitley. That is his own handwriting? 

Miss Vooros. That is his own handwriting. ' 

Mr. Whitley. And what is the nature, very generally and briefly, 
of the material in the book? Is it one of the books that you studied? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; it is one that we studied. Here is Hitler's 
picture in the front. 

The Chairman. Whose picture? 

Miss Vooros. Hitler's picture. 

Before a boy can get a position in Germany he must work for the 
State 3 months to 1 year. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the procedure under the Socialist govern- 
ment ? 

Miss Vooros. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. I show you another book captioned in German. Will 
you tell us what the title of that book is? 

Miss Vooros. This is Germany Through Night and Day. After 
our 3 weeks were over, Hugo Haas gave me this. Each one got this 
who did exceptionally good work. It says here, to continue what I 
have been doing; here — u To my comrade, Helen Vooros." 

Mr. Whitley. Is that one of the books that you studied over there? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 



3940 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. What is the nature of the material in that book? 

Miss Vooros. How Hitler came into power. 

Mr. Whitley. There is nothing about the American Revolution or 
George Washington ? 

Miss Vooros. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Here is another book. Will you identify this, Miss 
Vooros? [Handing book to the witness.] 

Miss Vooros. This was given me by a Nazi official — The Life of 
Adolf Hitler. 

Mr. Whitley. Can you identify that official? 

Miss Vooros. I would rather not. It has pictures of Adolf Hitler 
and his life. 

Mr. Whitley. The entire book is devoted to his life? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that a book that you in the youth movement 
studied ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; we were given those to study. 

Mr. Whitley. Here are some pamphlets. Will you tell us what 
they are and where they came from and how you got them ? 

Miss Vooros. This [indicating] is the constitution of the bund. Each 
youth leader has to know this, but I must say I never got around to it. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not study it? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. What are the others ? 

Miss Vooros. This [indicating] is one of the pamphlets that were 
given to us. 

Mr. Whitley. Where was that given to you ; in this country ? 

Miss Vooros. No ; in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the nature of the material in that pamphlet % 

Miss Vooros. About the Jews. 

Mr. Whitley. It is anti- Jewish? 

Miss Vooros. That they were the cause of wars; whenever there is 
a war they usually organize and finance it. 

Mr. Whitley. It is strictly anti- Jewish material ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And it was given to the American youth group over 
there? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What are the others ? 

Miss Vooros. This [indicating] is about Catholicism. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it critical of Catholicism? 

Miss Vooros. Very critical; about the Pope 

Mr. Whitley. Was it given to you in Germany ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; it was given to me in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you supposed to study it and read it ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That was a part of your work over there? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

There was another pamphlet we had on sterilization. That was one 
of our lectures we had. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you receive instruction on that? 

Miss Vooros. That was one of the important things we had to know, 
and that was how they were sterilizing the children of the German 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3941 

girl who had married a Jew; that they would bo compelled to be 
sterilized. 

Mr. Whitley. Do they do that in Germany? 

Miss Vooros. They do that in Germany now. 

Mr. "Whitley. And they gave this group of American boys and 
girls from 17 to 18 

Miss Vooros (interposing). No; we were a little older. 

Mr. Whitley. That is right; you were older, but they gave them 
detailed instruction in sterilization technique? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. They showed us how the woman and man, or the 
boy or girl, should be sterilized. 

Mr. Whitley. They gave you detailed instruction? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. This doctor drew an outline of the human 
body, of the girl and boy, and showed us what they would do to cause 
sterilization. 

Mr. Starnes. That lecture was given by a German doctor? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. While you were in the camp there? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And the idea behind that was that it was knowledge 
that you might need sometime ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. If conditions in this country were what they are in 
Germany, that would be the attitude toward sterilization ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Was there any further instruction that you received 
other than as outlined by you in your training ? 

Miss Vooros. Not that I can think of. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe you mentioned a moment ago, Miss Vooros, 
that in Germany they looked upon the D. K. V. in this country as 
the official representative in this country of the German Government. 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the German-American Business League, is 
it not — a subsidiary of the bund ? 

Miss Vooros. No; it is something different. The bund has a 
D. K. V., but I do not think that it has any relationship with the 
business league — the D. A. V. 

Mr. Whitley. Just to make that clear, what group in the United 
States, particularly and directly, do they consider in Germany to be 
the official German group in this country? 

Miss Vooros. I think the D. A. V. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the bund? 

Miss Vooros. No ; that is not the bund. It is an organ of the bund. 
That is the official; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, that is the bund in this country? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; that is the bund. 

Mr. Whitley. And, of course, its affiliated organizations? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, we have had considerable testimony 
here today with reference to various German propaganda agencies, 
and in order to clarify the set-up of the Nazi propaganda system, 
will it be proper at this time to introduce some charts to illustrate 
the set-up of the system? 

94931— 39— vol. 6 16 



3942 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. If we have a witness here for that purpose. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Metcalfe, who is a former member of the bund, 
and who has studied that matter for several years, can easily explain 
what those charts relate to and what that propaganda is. 

Mr. Mason. And its work here in this country? 

Mr. Whitley. Its start in Germany and its relation to this country. 

The Chairman. Before you get into that. Miss Vooros, did you 
carry any publications like the bund yearbook with you? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

The Chatrmax. Did you give any of them to Mr. Vandenberg? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you take with you any copies of editions of 
newspapers published by the bund in this country? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. What did you do with them? 

Miss Vooros. I distributed them among the people. 

The Chairman. Who gave you those instructions? 

Miss Vooros. Mr. Vandenberg. He asked me to take them over 
there to show what we were accomplishing over here. 

Mr. Starxes. Did you take a 1937 yearbook with you? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. I understand that at this point you just want to 
introduce the charts and identify them by another witness and then 
resume with this witness? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes, sir. 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN C. METCALFE 

(The witness was duly sworn bv the chairman.) 

Mr. Whitley. I think we could introduce Miss Vooros' testimony 
better if we could refer to these charts. 

The Chairman. Can a small chart go into the record ? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes, sir. 

(The charts referred to, to be reproduced in appendix.) 

Mr. Metcalfe. I don't know whether you can see the reading over 
here. 

The Chairman. You can read it out yourself. 

Mr. Metcalfe. This chart [indicating] shows the connection be- 
tween the Nazi ministry of propaganda and enlightment and the 
German-American Bund, through its various subsidiaries and affili- 
ated official agencies, and methods that are employed in reaching the 
German-American Bund and down through the various types of per- 
sons who are in the bund. For instance, it was pointed out by coun- 
sel for the committee yesterday that according to the instructions of 
the Third Reich, all agencies engaged in any form of propaganda in 
Germany are automatically subsidiaries of the German Government. 
So we have some of the major subsidiaries listed under the direction 
of Dr. Joseph Goebbels, minister of propaganda and enlightenment 
in Berlin. This first part here [indicating] is the ministry of propa- 
ganda and enlightenment, and leading into that the subsidiaries. 

Here is the V. T. A. That is the league for Germans in foreign 
lands, located in Berlin. That is the same agency that Miss Vooros 
has been testifying about as being one of the agencies which have 
cooperated in making it possible to send American boys and girls who 



: 



: 






! 






CN-AMBRIGAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3943 

are members of the Gterman-American Bund Youth Movement from 
Ifche United States to Germany, and which have partially financed 
that venture. It is also the same agency that was referred to in the 
testimony by Fritz Kuhn yesterday. 

Another agency is the Fichte Blind, or the "Fight League." That 
is located at Erfurt, Germany. It is largely engaged in the dissemi- 
nation of national Socialist propaganda and antiracial and anti- 
religious propaganda. Stacks of that material have been picked up in 
bund camps anil in bund posts all over the United States. I say that 
from direct evidence. I personally picked up that material; 1 have 
purchased it. and we introduced in evidence large quantities of ma- 
terial from this agency, the Fichte Bund, that had been sent to Amer- 
ican citizens, and frequently to persons who never even asked for the 
material, who did not know how they got it, who don't want it, but 
nevertheless have received the material. 

Then there is the World Service Agency, which is very similar to 
the Fichte Bund, and which is located at Hamburg. 

These two agencies — the Fichte Bund is a newer agency, and the 
World Service is an older one — specialize in distribution of material 
all over the world and, of course, great quantities to the United States. 

Then we have the Foreign Institute known as the — before I men- 
tion the Foreign Institute, the German word for "World Service" is 
"Welt Dienst." The Foreign Institute is the Ausland Institute at 
Stuttgart. Germany, which was referred to particularly yesterday in 
the presentation of various letters* by the chairman, confronting Fritz 
Kuhn with certain testimony in which he recognized several signa- 
tures and admitted that the letters were genuine. That was corre- 
spondence, in that particular case, between the Chicago bund post and 
this particular agency. 

This institute specializes in educational material and enlightenment 
propaganda and also in furnishing to the German-American posts 
ribbons, calendars, and things of that kind for their prizes for their 
various affairs and lotteries and things that they have. 

Then there is left open here another section, a subsidiary, covering 
all other propaganda agencies. There are a great, many minor ones. 
Included, however, in this is, of course, such an agency as Julius 
Streicher's anti-Jewish publication, which finds its way into the 
German-American Bund ranks particularly, and is there distributed, 
being sold at the camps and at bund meetings. 

Under the next line in this chart are various official agencies with 
contacts in Germany and here, namely, the steamship lines — the North 
German Lloyd and Hamburg American Lines, which were referred to 
by Miss Vooros as one of the agencies which have assisted in making 
possible this particular tour of the 30 young people to Germany. 

Then there are various Nazi official agencies. Evidence has been 
placed at your disposal as to certain Nazi agents who are operating 
within the German-American Bund ranks, who have been here as lec- 
turers and in other guises; and that is the bracket covering that par- 
ticular phase of activity. 

Then there is the German Embassy. For instance, Dr. Hans Dieck- 
hoff has been speaking before the German-American Bund, for in- 
stance the Buffalo post, where we have direct evidence of it; and as 
Mr. Kuhn testified yesterday, he has also spoken at other places. 

Then there is the Consular Service. We have a great deal of evi- 
dence of cooperation given to the German-American Bund and its 



3944 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

affiliates. That is, we have many photographs, letters and so on— 
photographs actually showing the various chancelleries, consulates, 
and so forth, and their members attending the affairs and addressing 
these various posts. 

Then there is the German Tourist Railway Information Service, 
which again is another agency referred to by Miss Vooros as one of 
the agencies which assisted in making possible the financing of that 
trip of the youth of the German-American Bund ; this agency furnish- 
ing the railroad passes, large books of passes, so that without cost 
they could travel all over Germany on these tours. This agency has 
also been found to be active in furnishing trips for lecturers who 
come over here and go back over there, for the purpose of gathering 
material for lectures in the United States. 

This next line [indicating] shows the methods that are employed. 
All of these agencies are furnishing speakers. We have plenty of evi- 
dence in the files with respect to that. 

Then we have the radio activities. The bund, for instance, has set 
up radio programs in the United States, and then there are the short- 
wave-radio programs; and we have particular evidence pertinent to 
this case in connection with the short-wave programs. While Mr. 
Kuhn yesterday, for instance, denied that there was any attempt to 
influence the bund members in listening to German-propaganda broad- 
casts, it is a fact nevertheless that we have picked up any number of 
printed programs of particular broadcasts of propaganda from Ger- 
man stations. 

The Chairman. That was all introduced last year, was it not? 
That is part of the record ? 

Mr. Metcalfe. That is correct. We have that here. 

Then this line [indicating] is, of course, all types of publications 
and printed matter, and the dissemination of it ; motion-picture films 
imported from Germany being shown at the various bund meetings 
and their other organizations. 

Then there are the schools that are set up for enlightenment and 
propaganda purposes, set up by all these above agencies, particularly 
the V. T. A., which has been active in that respect — and all this ma- 
terial feeding into the ranks of the German-American Bund, which 
has been shown conclusively, I think, to be made up of aliens, 
naturalized Americans, and native Americans. 

The Chairman. That is chart No. 1. Is there another chart there? 

Mr. Metcalfe. Yes, sir. Then we have the set-up from there on. 
This [indicating] is the chart of the activities in the United States. 
There we have the German-American Bund broken into three divi- 
sions — the East, the Middle West, and the far West; and under that 
is the storm-troop division and the others ; then the posts of the Ger- 
man-American Bund, and the stamps and the coinage that they are 
now seeking to develop. 

Then we have over here [indicating] the official agencies cooperating 
with the German-American Bund — the Embassy, the Consular Serv- 
ice, Nazi agents, Railway Tourist Information Bureau, and the steam- 
ship lines, and on the other side the subsidiary organizations of the 
bund, the affiliated groups of active sympathizers referred to by Mr. 
Kuhn yesterday. 

The Chairman. That is, the sympathizers who have joined? 



UN-AMERICAJN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3945 

Mr. Metcalfe. The sympathizers who have joined, and who have 
made a contribution of $1 for membership. 

The Chairman. By the way, when we were investigating it last 
year there was no such thing as a sympathizers' group, officially? 

Mr. Metcalfe. No; it has been developed since that time; except 
that we did develop and have established that the German-American 
Bund is spreading beyond its natural groups and is going into other 
groups. 

Then, aside from the active sympathizer, we have the passive sym- 
pathizers, those who do not take any active part and would not take 
out a membership, and yet are sympathetic and would go to these 
a If airs. 

Mr. Mason. Let me ask you a question or two on one point : Your 
first chart showed the sources of propaganda, and so forth, from 
Germany ? 

Mr. Metcalfe. That is correct. 

Mr. Mason. Your second chart shows how the bund, through all 
these other organizations, translates that, or gets it over, to the 
American public ; is that the idea ? 

Mr. Metcalfe. One chart complements the other, in other words. 

Mr. Mason. All right ; I wanted to get that clear in my mind. 

Mr. Metcalf. Then, again, here we have the Nazi Ministry of 
Propaganda, not feeding directly into the German-American Bund, 
but into all the affiliated and subsidiary groups and the cooperating 
organizations. 

Mr. Mason. Directly ? 

Mr. Metcalfe. That is correct. Here [indicating] it is simply with 
the German-American Bund, and now we show these same agencies 
spreading their material, not alone to the German-American Bund, 
but also to its subsidiary groups and the affiliated organizations, the 
cooperating organizations, and from there on all of them going into 
the active Nazi sympathizers classifications, into the passive sympa- 
thizers, and from there, of course, into all the potential groups that 
they think might become active in these movements. 

Then we have in the final chart [indicating] the Nazi Ministry of 
Propaganda and its various subsidiaries combined, and the methods 
that they employ in reaching all these groups — for instance, radio, 
motion-picture films, and schools. 

Then the bund subsidiary organizations or such organizations as 
the D. K. V., the German Business League. Fritz Kuhn said yester- 
day that it was a German-American business league, but the actual 
translation of the German words is "German Business League." 

Then there are the various schools that have been set up by the 
bund throughout the country, and the various kuitur organizations 
operating with the same membership, belonging to these two groups, 
and the protective leagues in these groups, which all belong to the 
German-American Bund . 

Then we have the affiliated organizations. Mr. Kuhn said yesterday 
that there was no connection between the German-American Bund 
and the Silver Shirts. It is a fact, however, that there is a great over- 
lapping of the respective organizations. For instance, in Chicago 
a number of the storm troopers of the German-American Bund are also 
Silver Shirts, and they meet jointly. I have sat in those meetings 
with them. 



3946 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Then in the German war veterans' groups there is the same over- 
lapping of memberships. There are the tJkranian Nazi groups, the 
"White Russian groups, of which there are several; the Hungarian 
Nazi groups, and the Black Shirt organizations, and the German Bund, 
which was referred to here yesterday — all of them were formerly 
members of the bund but, because of the orders from Berlin, they 
withdrew in Chicago and formed the German Bund, whereas for the 
rest of the country Kuhn set up a prospective citizenry and kept them 
in so as to retain the revenue and not lose it. 

Now, we have the cooperative organizations — and Mr. Kuhn openly 
admitted that yesterday — the Christian Front, the Christian Mobil- 
izers, the American Patriots, the "War Veterans, the Knights of the 
"White Camellia, the American: Fascists; and we have a list of about 
a hundred different organizations in the same ranks where they go 
to each other's meetings, they work together, they exchange speakers, 
and so on. 

Then in the active Nazi sympathizers are listed all the contributors — 
the persons who have taken out membership as sympathizers and 
contribute to it; who are willing to be seen giving the Nazi salute at 
these affairs. 

Then there are the passive Nazi sympathizers, who are simply the 
antiracial, particularly anti -Jewish, and anti religious groups. 

Now, all these organizations again have the same type of outlets 
that are coming from the Nazi Ministry of Enlightenment and Prop- 
aganda and its subsidiaries; that is, they also have speakers, radio 
programs, publications, films, and schools; and it floods down into 
the potential Nazi sympathizers and, of course, the American public 
at large, always seeking to get more people into this general movement. 

The Chairman. I think you have identified the charts very well; 
don't you think so, Mr. "Whitley ? 

Mr. "Whitley. Yes; I think so. Those charts will be reproduced 
in the record. 

The Chairman. All right; let us resume with the witness on the 
stand. 

TESTIMONY OF MISS HELEN VOOROS— Resumed 

[he 

Mr. Whitley. Miss Vooros, does your previous explanation pretty 
well cover the substance of the instructions which you received at 
this youth camp outside of Berlin ? 

Miss Vooros. At that camp ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do any of the members of the youth group receive 
any type of special instruction when they are sent over to Germany 
on these training trips; any mechanical training of any kind, for 
example ? 

Miss Vooros. The students that are sent to Stuttgart for the 8 months 
to study, they study national socialism and something else; and I 
found out that Franz Nicolay, who was sent out in September 1937, 
studied short-wave radio in Stuttgart. 

The Chairman. Transmitting and receiving? 

Miss Vooros. That is right. 

The Chairman. That is Franz Nicolay? 

Miss Vooros. Franz Nicolay; yes. 

The Chairman. He took the 8 months' training at Stuttgart ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 



Mr. 
Hr 



>!>. 

,;!, 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3947 

The Chairman. And he was a member of the Youth Movement in 
this count r v \ 

Miss Vooros. Yes; he was the son of Father Nicolay. He wrote a 
letter to Mr. Vandenberg, and I saw the letter, in which he said he 
was studying short-wave radio and said it was very useful and very 
important. 

The Chairman. Do you know any members of the German-Ameri- 
can Bund Youth Movement in this country who have experimented 
and communicated with Germany by radio? 

Miss VoOROS. There were two boys at Harvard — Paul Ochojski 
and Herbert Mai; two boys who were Harvard students. 

The Chairman. They were a part of your group over there? 
, Miss Yooros. Yes, sir; and they related an incident when they 
had been in contact with Hugo Haas. They have a short-wave set. 

The Chairman. They had been in contact with Hugo Haas in 
Germany by short wave ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Was that before or after their trip over there? 

Miss Yooros. That was before; and one of the boys, Paul Ochojski, 
staved a few weeks longer than the other, and he was working with 
Hugo Haas on something pertaining to that. I saw him when I 
went to Hugo Haas' office later. You see, I did not return with 
the group of girls, I stayed a few weeks longer. 

The Chairman. To sum up briefly the nature of the training 
which 3 T our group of 30 received in this camp, it was very positively 
and definitely pronational socialism? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

The Chairman. It was very definitely against, or critical, of every- 
thing pertaining to America and American institutions? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; they were quite interested in the two boys 
that came from Harvard, because they could spread propaganda 
much more easily than the others. They told some of the girls 
that were still high-school students at that time that when they 
returned they should work very hard at their work and become 
teachers, because that was the best way of spreading propaganda. 

The Chairman. To become teachers? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Those are two points that went throughout the 
entire course of training. Now, the third point — all of the teach- 
ing and training instruction was very definitely and positively anti- 
Jewish ? 

Miss Vooros. Anti-Jewish. 

The Chairman. There was no question about that? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

The Chairman. That was the theme running through the whole 
instruction ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; they told us that our President Roosevelt had a 
streak of Jewish blood in him. 

The Chairman. They told you that over there? 

Miss Vooros. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the official lecturers? 

Miss Vooros. That knew more about it. 

Mr. Whitley. Then, in addition, you got certain types of special 
training in your instruction in sterilization which you described? 






hi 



3948 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you got instruction with reference to religion? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe you testified the tenor of the instruction 
was that national socialism was a religion itself; in other words, 
they did not encourage any comment on religion? 

Miss Vooros. No, they didn't ; because national socialism, in itself, 
is a religion. 

Mr. Whitley. And they not only gave you pamphlets that were 
anti-Jewish, but you referred to one here which you say is strictly 
anti-Catholic ? 

Miss Vocros. Anti- Catholic. 

Mr. Whitley. And you said, I believe, earlier today, that one of 
the lecturers advised the group that they did not criticize com- 
munism ? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Because communism and national socialism were 
fundamentally the same? 

Miss Vooros. It was. 

Mr. Whitley. National socialism, from their interpretation, at 
least, being just a little higher form of communism? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Does that sum up substantially the tenor of the 
teaching? 

Miss Vooros. No ; there is another thing I forgot to mention. You 
see, all this immorality that was existing in the bund, previous to my 
trip to Germany 

Mr. Whitley. That is in the camps in this country, you mean ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; that appalled me to know it was going on, and 
there was a lecturer at the camp there who said this was pure and 
noble, and they should not curb their instincts, and a girl should not 
feel ashamed if she had an illegitimate child; because, in Germany, 
they have what they call mutter-kind heim (mother and girl home) 
where a girl could go with her child and they would receive a home 
and shelter there. And they said, they gave us to know that we women, 
we girls, when we grow up, that our duty was to have children ; that 
we should produce ; that was all we were there for, and that the Ger- 
man population in this country should grow. 

Mr. Mason. I would like to inject one question there: The tenor bu 
of this instruction, then, was that intercourse between pure German cause 
people was all right; but if a German girl, for instance, had inter- iiou] 
course with some other race, particularly the one, the Jewish, then diar-: 
that was impure; that was vile? Mr. 

Miss Vooros. That was vile. ■ 

Mr. Whitley. Now, as I understand your previous testimony, Miss )k. 
Vooros, you stated although you were one of the group selected to go )lw 
to Stuttgart for the 6 months' training outside of Berlin, after that 
was completed you were asked to take the 8 months' training there? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. But, because you injured your ankle, you declined 
that offer? 

Miss Vooros. I did. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, when did the training terminate in the camp 
outside of Berlin ? 



»r> 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3949 

Miss Vooros. Well, it ended 6 weeks later. That was the second 

Mr. Whitley. Approximately ? 
Miss Vooros. In June, the middle week of June. 
Mr. AVhitley. And, as I understand also your testimony, Mr. Dinke- 
lacker had already left 2 weeks before the camp terminated? 
Miss Vooros. Yes ; he had left. 

«Mr. AVhitley. And this American group, when the camp broke up 
and the training was completed, they came back to the United States? 
Miss Vooros. No; they had five days, and those 5 days they stayed 
in Berlin. They went to Horsst Wessel's grave and put a wreath of 
flowers down there; they visited the National Youth leader of Ger- 
man} 7 , of the girls' division — I don't know her name. 

Mr. AVhitley. AA^hat was her name ? 

Miss Vooros. I don't know. 

Mr. AVhitley. But that was the National Youth leader of the girls* 
division in Germany? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; they were in Berlin. I did not take that trip. 
I think they did various other things. 

Mr. AA r HiTLEY. What did you do? Did you come back with the 
group ? 

Miss Vooros. No ; I stayed with relatives. 

Mr. AA^hitley. You stayed with relatives? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. AVhitley. For how long after the rest of the group left ? 

Miss Vooros For 2 weeks. 

Mr. AA 7 hitley. Then when did you sail from Germany ? 

Miss Vooros. AVhile I was with my relatives Hugo Haas came to 
me and brought me my mail, and one thing I noticed was that every 
letter had been opened. 

Mr. AA^hitley. AVas that true throughout the time you were in 
camp ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; all our letters were opened. 

Mr. AVhitley. All the mail had been opened ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; and it so happened my mother sent me articles 
about Fritz Kuhn being brought before the court, with reference to 
being in Germany, and they wanted to know whether he was in Ger- 
(;,, many and why, and that Winterscheidt was arrested for indecency, 
or something or other, and he brought this letter to me and wanted to 
know what the idea was, why my mother sent those, and that I could 
cause a lot of trouble. I said, "Well, what happened to the bund I 
should be interested in it." He said that should be discarded imme- 
diately, because all of the mail was opened. 

Mr. Whitley. Those were clippings that were critical of Mr. Kuhn 
or had reference to Mr. Winterscheidt ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. AVhitley. For impairing the morals of a minor — he did not 
want that kind of material sent to Germany ? 

Miss Vooros. No ; and every letter that went out of that camp had to 
be O. K.'d by Hugo Haas. 

Mr. Whitley. Did the American group give him their consent to 
open their mail ? 

Miss Vooros. No ; that is the law. 

Mr. AVhitley. That is the law ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 






3950 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. He was the official censor of your group? 

Miss Vooros. That is right, 

Mr. Whitley. And he censored every letter you sent out and every 
letter you received ? 

Miss Vooros. No ; we received our mail at some place where no one 
else knew the location. Our mail was delivered to a post-office box in 
Berlin, and someone would get it for us. 

Mr. Whitley. And bring it out to the camp ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, concealing your activities, and the 
purpose of the trip over there continued all the way through ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; it did. 

Mr. Whitley. And you could not write letters back to relatives in 
this country and tell them where you were and what you were doing? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. If you did, they would be censored? 

Miss Vooros. They would be censored. 

Mr. Whitley. And they would not let them go out? 

Miss Vooros. They would not let them go out. 

Mr. Whitley. Now to continue the narrative chronologically. You 
visited other relatives after they left ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And Hugo Haas brought you your mail ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. At that time, did he make arrangements with you, 
or discuss with you your own return to the United States ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; he told me I was to return on the steamship 
Hansa. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that the North German Lloyd boat? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; a German steamship line. 

Mr. Whitley. On what boat were you to sail ? 

Miss Vooros. That was June 24, 1938. 

Mr. Whitley. That you were to sail? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; that I was to sail. And at that time I did not 
know that two other boys were sailing with me — two boys, William 
Sellin and Heinz Ernst. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were they? 

Miss Vooros. Two Hitler youth leaders came over with me and 
were sent to Camp Nordland to lead the camp there. 

Mr. Whitley. To train 

Miss Vooros. To lecture the bo}-s and girls there and train them. 

Mr. Whitley. The youth group at Camp Nordland? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And they were the official representatives of the 
German group ? 

Miss Vooros. They were the official representatives of Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. You know that because they came over on the boat 
with you and talked with you and you talked with them? 

Miss Vooros. I knew it from Hugo Haas also. 

Mr. Whitley. He told you? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he make arrangements for your passage back? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; he told me where to go to get my ticket — to get 
it at Hamburg; and on the voyage over I met these two boys, and they 






rX-AMEKK AX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3951 

both had passports, German passports, with thorn to go into and out 
of Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he introduce yon to the two boys? 

Miss VOOROS. I had met them previously at the camp. 

Mr. Whitley. So that yon sailed on the steamship Hamaf 

Miss VOOROS. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. With them on Jnne 24? 

Miss Voros. Yes; that is right. And before I sailed we had to take 
, Oi some tilings over with us. 

Mr. Whitley. Who made the arrangement for you to take some 
things over with you? 

Miss Yooros. Hugo Haas. 

Mr. Whitley. Jnst what did he give you to bring over, and what 
were his instructions to you? 

Miss Vooros. There were several books that had to be brought over 
here, and they were divided among the three of us — German books; for 
instance, Mein Kampf and Lives of the Political Nazi Leaders in Ger- 
many and How to Conduct a Meeting in the Group 

Mr. Whitley. How many of those books, approximately, were 
there ( 

Miss Vooros. We each carried about 40 or 50 — each of us. 

Mr. Whitley. Each 1 of the 3 were given 40 or 50 books? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. By Hugo Haas ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; by Hugo Haas. 

Mr. Whitley. What did he tell you to do with those books? 

Miss Vooros. We were to take them back with us, and I was given 
uniforms, like what I have on — I was given six sets of those. , 

Mr. Whitley. Six sets of uniforms like that you have on ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; and I was to conceal them. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he tell you how to conceal them ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; he told me I had a large trunk with me, and to 
put the uniforms down underneath and to put the books on top, so 
that there would not be any unnecessary questions by the inspector of 
customs when I arrived. Then he said another package was to go to 
Dinkelacker, the political leader, and one of those boys, William 
Sellin, had taken a package and was to give it to the political leader, 
™\ and after the boat docked, 2 or 3 days here, that Dinkelacker would 
1 come and collect it. 

Mr. Whitley. Hugo Haas told you that ? 
"■ Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you see that package? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; I saw that. 

Mr. Whitley. In Hugo Haas' office? 

Miss Yooros. In Hamburg. 

Mr. Whitley. He had it and gave it to one of those boys, and he was 
to give it to 

Miss Vooros. The political leader. 

Mr. Whitley. On the boat, very much in the same manner that you 
had given the package going over to the political leader, on instruc- 
tions ? 

Miss Yooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. So that you left June 24, and the 3 of you had 40 
or 50 books apiece in your trunks? 



3952 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you had these six girls' uniforms for the girls in 
the youth movement? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Which Hugo Haas had instructed you to conceal in 
the bottom of the trunk? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. Each girl took a certain amount, and he told 
me I was not getting away with anything. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he tell you what to do if you were questioned 
coming through customs, or did he take it for granted that you would 
not be questioned ; did he offer any explanation or anything you could 
give? 

Miss Vooros. Not about the books we took. He said if we had to 
write anything, or give any explanation, that we were supposed to use 
the books for the purpose of our own library. 

Mr. Whitley. Just for the purpose of your own library ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did anything of interest occur coming over on the 
boat, on the trip over? 

Miss Vooros. The political leader was given this package. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you see that? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; I saw that. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you see the boy who had the package give it to 
the leader? 

Miss Vooros. Give it to the leader, yes ; because he was called down 
to the cabin. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that immediately after you sailed? 

Miss Vooros. That was several days after we sailed. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know the identity of that political leader? 

Miss Vooros. I can tell him when I see him again. I don't know 
his name. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know his name? 

Miss Voroos. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he in uniform ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; parading around all day. 

Mr. Whitley. Parading around the boat? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And he was one of those officials you described this 
morning that were on each German boat, known as a political leader? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is the contact man between the German Gov- 
ernment and the bund officials in this country? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And they go down to meet the boat when it docks, 
to see him, and if there are any messages or packages, or mail, or 
reports, he takes them back? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; he does. 

Mr. Whitley. That is from your own personal knowledge and from 
talking with other members? 

Miss Voroos. Yes. 

The Chairman. Eight in that connection: Did you know of any 
instances of photographs being taken down to the boat and given to 
the leader? 

Miss Vooros. Just like I took photographs and reports. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3953 



1 



The Chairman. I mean any photographs of anything else except 
i lie camps — the bund camps? 

Miss Vooros. I would not know. 

The Chairman. You would not know about that? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. AVhen you arrived, when you docked in New York, 
did you have any trouble in getting through customs with the ma- 
terial you had brought over? 

Miss Vooros. I received a white slip and I had to put down every- 
thing — I don't know — of $20 value, or something like that. I put 
down "books" and the inspector looked at them. He did not look 
underneath the books where the uniforms were. While he was in- 
specting them, this boy William Sellin was standing right in front 
of me. He asked me what the books were for; I told him they were 
for my library, and he just looked at one or two of them. I had 
the least important ones on top. 

Mr. Whitley. And Hugo Haas told you to whom you were to de- 
liver the books and uniforms? 

Miss Vooros. They were to be called for. 

Mr. Whitley. They were to be called for ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; and Erika Hagebush called for them. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, he told you they were to be called for. Did 
anyone meet you at the boat ? 

Miss Vooros. My father met me at the boat. 

Mr. Whitley. And 2 days after you landed, Erika Hagebush — she 
now is a national leader of the Youth Movement in this country? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the girls' division? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. She called at your home for the books and uni- 
forms ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you gave them to her ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. She knew you were bringing them back? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. And my father had received word that Mr. 
Kuhn wanted to see me the moment I docked ; that it was very im- 
portant. My sister was the only one who knew I was taking this 
trip and when I was returning, and she probably let out wTien I 
was leaving, and Mr. Vandenberg let Out the remark that "one tele- 
G(H| gram and I would stay in Germany." 

Mr. Whitley. When you had delivered the books and uniforms to 
Erika Hagebush, then you had fulfilled your mission as far as that 
flit was concerned ? 
il. Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what she did with those ? 

(Miss Vooros. They went to the camp. 
Mr. Whitley. They went to the camp ? 
Miss Vooros. Yes. 
Mr. Whitley. Camp Nordland? 
Miss Vooros. Camp Nordland; yes. 
Mr. Whitley. Did she tell you that ? 
Miss Vooros. Yes ; she told me that. 
Mr. Whitley. She told you that was where they were going? 






3954 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Then immediately after you docked, your parents 
told you that Kuhn had instructed them to have you get in touch 
with him as soon as you landed ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. "Whitley. He had already come back from Germany? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; he had already come back from Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. He was there while you were there, but he had 
come back in the meantime ? 

M'ss Vooros. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he indicate why he needed to see you im- 
mediately ? 

Miss Vooros. It was only logical ; because, after all, I was in Europe 
and went to this camp, and he did not want a word of it to get 
around. 

Mr. Whitley. And your sister had said something? 

Miss Vooros. My sister had a dispute with Vandenberg 

Mr. Whitley. While you were gone? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; and he said it would take only one telegram 
and I would be forced to stay in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Vandenberg, the Brooklyn leader, told your 
sister that? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That it would just take one telegram and you would 
have to stay in Germany? 

Mr. Whitley. He told you that? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. When did you see Kuhn — immediately? 

Miss Vooros. No; I saw him later. You see, I had no intentions 
of going back to Kuhn and being connected any further with the 
bund. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you tell Kuhn that? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; I did ; and he wanted to see me ; he always said 
he wanted to see me, and I told him I wanted him to leave me alone. 
I went to Kuhn and told him I wanted to be left alone and would 
not have anything to do with it. Kuhn wanted to know what the 
trouble was; why I left the bund, and all that. I said because of 
the immoralities and what they were doing, and sending out to 
Germany, and it was not right. After all, they said they were 
fighting for Americanism, and there is not one thing, since I have 
been in the bund, that I have learned about Americanism in this 
country. He said that I had better be quiet about it ; that it would 
not be very pleasant for me to speak about it, or even if I went to 
the courts for something I would have a record. Sliss \ 

Mr. Whitley. That you would have a record? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that as far as he went in what might happen, 
as an implied threat? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Starxes. Who said that — Kuhn? 

Miss Vooros. Kuhn said that ; and he also said he would not be 
responsible for what happened. 

Mr. Whitley. If anything happened to you he would accept no 
responsibility ? 



Jlr. 









UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3955 



I 



Miss Vooros. If anything happened to me he would accept no 

(responsibility. 
Mr. Whitley. That was after your meeting with him, when you 
went to sec him; and he sent for you and you went to see him 
later — not immediately? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. In the meantime, a man was sent to see me. 
Mr. Deppe is his name. He is an undercover man; he is an active 
member of the bund. They sent him to my house to find out how 
much I had really talked about the organization. 
Mr. Whitley. To find out what your attitude was? 
Miss Vooros. What my attitude was. 

Mr. Whitley. And he questioned you and tried to find out? 
Miss Vooros. Yes; he did. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he try to get you to reconsider? 
Miss Vooros. Yes; he did. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he make any threats, direct or implied, as to 
what might happen if you withdrew from the bund? 

Miss Vooros. No; he said it was not very honest; if I began to 
talk about it, I should always consider there is a little German 
blood in me. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Then at the time you talked to Mr. Kuhn, 
did he bring up any particular incident that had occurred, that he 
wanted to ask you about ? 

Miss Vooros. He asked me in reference to Dinkelacker — what the 
trouble was. 

Mr. Whitley. And the situation on the boat there? 
Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Incidentally, how old is Dinkelacker? 
Miss Vooros. Forty-two or forty-four. 

Mr. Whitley. And I believe you said the young lady, the girl, 
was 17? 

Miss Vooros. The girl was 17; yes. 
saiii Mr. Whitley. Mr. Kuhn had heard about that? 
lime. Miss Vooros. Yes ; Mr. Kuhn had heard about that. 

Mr. Whitley. And Mr. Kuhn asked you to tell him about it? 
Miss Vooros. And I told him about it. 
Mr. Whitley. What was his comment? 
Miss Vooros. He said he was going to take care of it. 
Mr. Whitley. That he would take care of that? 
Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That was before the break; I mean you made it 
clear at the time you talked with Mr. Kuhn that you were going to 
have nothing to do with the organization ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; and Mr. Kuhn gave me a lecture because I 
visited my only sister in Germany, and she did not know he was the 
person, and I went and told her he was the person and she got in 
touch with him. 

Mr. Whitley. He had not let her know? 

Miss Vooros. No; she did not know a thing about it, and he said 
I had no right to talk about it. 

(I Mr. Whitley. Did you tell Mr. Kuhn about the fact that Mr. 
Vandenberg, the Brooklyn leader, had been annoying you for a long 
time ? 
Miss Vooros. I did ; and he did not do a thing about it. 



:1 | f ::, 



3956 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. He did not? 

Miss Vooros. Because, as we were an incorporated town, I could 
not possibly go to court nor could he go to court. 

Mr. Whitley. Did lie express any resentment or criticism? 

Miss Vooros. He said he could not believe me, and I said "I have 
letters he wrote to me while in Germany," and he said I must dis- 
card the letters. He said, "I don't believe he wrote them." 

Mr. Whitley. That was the time you definitely and positively 
broke with the bund? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Now are you acquainted with, or were you ac- 
quainted with Dr. Griebl, in New York? 

Miss Vooros. He was my doctor. 

Mr. Whitley. He was your physician? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; he was. 

Mr. Whitley. For what period, approximately? 

Miss Vooros. For 6 months. 

Mr. Whitley. You are referring now to Dr. I. T. Griebl, is it? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The one who fled this country? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. At the time the Nazi spy investigation was being 
conducted in New York by the F. B. I. ? 

Miss Vooros. That is right; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How long had you known Dr. Griebl ? 

Miss Vooros. I said 4 to 6 months. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he considered the official doctor for the Youth 
Movement of the bund, or the German groups ? 

Miss Vooros. No ; I did not hear anything like that. 

Mr. Whitley. You went to him voluntarily ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; I went to him voluntarily. 

Mr. Whitley. You were not sent to him, or he was not recom- 
mended to you by any officials ? 

Miss Vooros. No; he was not. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what his connection with the bund or 
any of its officials was? 

Miss Vooros. I do not know, but he always did such undercover 
work, you know, that they respected the man. They were friendly 
with him, the bund members. He is in constant contact with bund 
members. He was in constant contact with Mr. Deppe and Mr. 
Schilling. 

The Chairman. How did you know that to be a fact ? 

Miss Vooros. Because I know both people. I have seen them to- 
gether. 

The Chairman. Often? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Was that the same Mr. Deppe who came and talked 
to you? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Ptarnes. Is this Mr. Deppe an American citizen, or a German? 

Miss Vooros. I cannot say. He sent his family to Germany and he 
came there one evening and I asked him "Why?" and he said "You 
never know what may come up these days," so undoubtedly he was 
expecting something. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3957 

Mr. Whitley. By the way, how did this Erika Hagebush go to 
Germany — with your group? 

Miss Vooros. No; I met her in Germany. She had gone there in 
September 1937. 

Sir. Whitley. And you went there in April 1938? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What about Hugo Haas? 

Miss Vooros. He was there. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he in your party, or was he already over there? 

Miss Vooros. He was there. 

Mr. Whitley. He was there, and he had gone over there before you 
had gone there? 

Miss Vooros. For quite some time. 

Mr. Whitley. What about Franz Nicolay? 

Miss Vooros. He had gone over. 

The Chairman. His father is Karl Nicolay? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Franz Nicolay went to Germany in September 1937? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And the youth group went there, of which you wera 
a member, in April 1938 ? 

Miss Vooros. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what they were doing over there? 
Were they over there just on a visit? 

Miss Vooros. They were studying at Stuttgart. 

Mr. Whitley. They were taking that 8 months' course? 

Miss Vooros. They were taking that 8 months' course. 

Mr. Whitley. The long course? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. What sort of a course ? 

Miss Vcoros. As I said, on national socialism. This girl was sent 
to one of those homes, mother and child homes, to study nursing, 
aside from national socialism, and this boy was studying the short 
wave. 

Mr. Starnes. They later came back to this country — both of 
them ? 

Miss Vooros. Thev did. Thev are here now. 

Mr. Starnes. They are here now? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And what is their official connection with the bund ? 

Miss Vooros. She is the youth leader of the Germans throughout 
the country, the girls' division, and he is the youth leader of the 
boys. They are both working under Mr. Kunze. 

The Chairman. Where does Mr. Nicolay live — Karl Nicolay? 

Miss Vooros. He is not here. 

The Chairman. He is not here any more? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

The Chairman. Where does the boy live? He does not live here, 
either? 

Miss Vooros. No; his address has never been revealed, either. 

The Chairman. Do you know where Mai lives? 

Miss Vooros. In Rid<rewood. 

The Chairman. In Ridgewood? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. I don't know their addresses. 

94931 — 39— vol. G 17 



3958 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Getting back to Dr. Griebl; he was your personal 
doctor and you have seen him associating with bund members and 
officials ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. You see, he had this organization, literature 
and arts club — this was before I was a member — and he wanted me 
to join. 

Mr. Whitley. He visited you before you joined ? 

Miss Vooros. No; before I was a member. He had this literature 
and arts club, you know, and when I went to him he invited me to 
one of the meetings, and I went with my girl friend, and there I 
met him with Mr. Schiller. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is Mr. Schiller? Do you know his first name? 

Miss Vooros. Frederick Schiller. He is a man who deals mostly 
on the masonic angle. 

Mr. Whitley. Nazi propaganda? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; Nazi propaganda. He gets shipments each 
month from Germany of this masonic propaganda. 

Mr. Whitley. Does he lecture on that subject? 

Miss Vooros. He does. 

Mr. Whitley. You have heard him lecture ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. At meetings? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; at meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. And he is the one who has the concession at the 
camp to sell those books — propaganda? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know where he lives ? 

Miss Vooros. He lives at 1280 Clay Avenue. 

Mr. Whitley. Brooklyn? 

Miss Vooros. No; Manhattan, near One Hundred and Sixty-ninth 
Street. 

Mr. Whitley. And is he openly affiliated with the bund, or does he 
seem to occupy some little different position ? 

Miss Vooros. In the bund : he is working in the bund. 

Mr. Whitley. He is working in the bund ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you have seen him associate with Dr. Griebl ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And at this meeting you attended in Dr. Griebl's 
house, what was the nature of the meeting? 

Miss Vooros. Because of my illness, I did not see Mr. Schiller. I 
was at the meeting. 

Mr. Whitley. That meeting was at Dr. Griebl's house ? 

Miss Vooros. This was not Dr. Griebl's house; this was an interne 
on Eighty-sixth Street, where they had the meeting, and he lectured 
for an hour. 

Mr. Whitley. Were bund members there? 

Miss Vooros. Schiller was, and Deppe. 

Mr. Whitley. And you have seen them together? 

Miss Vooros. Quite often. We called them the "undercover" men, 
you see. They do a lot of work, but we do not know what they do. 

Mr. Whitley. Those three were called "undercover" men? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Were they all bund members? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3959 






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there 

nam 
mosfl 

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Miss Vooros. Yes; but they do work that no one knows about. 

Mr. Whitley. They were members of the bund doing a certain type 
of work, but you did not know what type of work or what kind of 
work? 

Miss Vooros. No. 

Mr. Whitley. When was it that Dr. Griebl fled New York while 
he was being sought in connection with the Nazi spy ring in New 
York— approximately? 

Miss Vooros. At the beginning of last year. 

Mr. Whitley. The early part of last year? 

Miss Vooros. The early part of last year. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you hear any comment at that time in the bund 
with reference to his disappearance? 

Miss Vooros. There is a certain ship, the steamship Brandt, on 
which Spankknobel went over, and Dr. Griebl. Those ships are ready 
to take anyone over who is discredited. 

Mr. Whitley. Don't they have to have a visa, or passport ? 

Miss Vooros. Nothing. 

Mr. Whitley. You make reference to Spankknabel or Spank- 
knobel \ 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you identify him for us? 

Miss Vooros. I don't know his first name. He was sought by the 
F. B. I. and, when the F. B. I. at that time were looking for him, he 
was hidden all along in Mr. Winterscheidt's house. 

Mr. Whitley. At the time the F. B. I. were looking for him ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes; and the bund members knew about it. 

Mr. Whitley. And he was being hid in Mr. Winterscheidt's home? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How do you know that? 

Miss Vooros. Because his secretary told us. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Winterscheidt's secretary? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was she in a position to know that ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; they were close friends. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Winterscheidt's secretary ? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. She was one of the girls who went over with us 
to Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. And she told you that while the F. B. I. were look- 
ing for Spankknobel, he was hid in Mr. Winterscheidt's home? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Winterscheidt is the former Weckruf editor 
and publication man who, on two occasions, was arrested for morals 
offenses \ 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And is now serving time? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know anything further about Dr. Griebl 
than we have already covered; do you know of anything else that 
>r"ffl fI Ji might be of interest to the committee? 

Miss Vooros. No. Erika Hagebush relates an incident, when I told 
her that, when I told her how Dinkelacker looked at me, and she said 
that was nothing; that Hitler had his own sugar and praising for 



«bl! 

Griei 



f. 



3960 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

work, and the girls who had a chance to study at Stuttgart would get 
a chance to meet Hitler. 

Mr. Whitley. What kind of work was he praising them for? 

Miss Vooros. The work they were doing here. 

Mr. Whitley. During their training period over there, were the 
references made to the type of work you were being trained for fre- 
quent and specific? 

Miss Vooros. Yes ; they were. 

Mr. Whitley. Was there anything subtle about the approach, or 
would they just say you were being trained to conduct propaganda 
work ? 

Miss Vooros. That is what we were there for. 

Mr. Whitley. That was the definite understanding? 

Miss Vooros. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That was the sole purpose of the training? 

Miss Vooros. That was. 

Mr. Whitley. And you were to come back to this country prepared 
and trained to carry on that propaganda work? 

Miss Vooros. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, that, I believe, completes this witness. 

The Chairman. Are there any questions by members of the com- 
mittee? If there are no more questions, the committee will recess 
until 10 o'clock Monday morning. 

(The committee thereupon took a recess until Monday, August 21, 
1939, at 10 a. m.) 



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INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



MONDAY, AUGUST 21, 1939 

House of Representatives, 
Special Committee to Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. C. 

The committee met at 10 a. m., in the caucus room, House Office 
>:c Building, Hon. Man in Dies (chairman), presiding. 

Present: Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Who is the 
wtiislnext witness, Mr. Whitley? 
heconil Mr. Whitley. Dr. Sherman. 

TOs_ 

TESTIMONY OF DR. JOHN HARVEY SHERMAN 

igust ,il 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

Mr. Whitley. Please state your full name for the record. 

Dr. Sherman. John Harvey Sherman. 

Mr. Whitley. What is vour address? 

Dr. Sherman. University of Tampa, Tampa, Fla. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your position in that university I 

Dr. Sherman. I am the president. 

Mr. Whitley. You are the president of the University of Tampa? 

Dr. Sherman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you in the last year or so had any contact 
svith any representatives or officials of the German Government, or 
:he Xazi government? 

The Chairman. Before we go into that, I suggest that we develop 
tnore fully who the witness is, and what his past experience has been. 
I suggest that you develop that for the sake of the record. 

A lr. Whitley. How long have you occupied your position as presi- 
dent of the University of Tampa ? 

Dr. Sherman. Since January 14, 1937. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have any previous experience, or educa- 
:ional experience? 

Dr. Sherman. Yes; I had previously been connected with the Lake 
Forest University, Illinois. I had been a professor at Lake Forest 
University; at the University of Chattanooga, and also taught in 
■Northwestern and the University of Minnesota. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you a native of the United States? 

Dr. Sherman. I am a native of Virginia, of Fairfax County, about 
15 miles from here. 
I Mr. Whitley. Do you have at your university a German-language 
department ? 



3961 






3962 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Dr. Sherman. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is the professor in charge of the instruction in 
that department? 

Dr. Sherman. The professor in charge is Otto P. Kraus. 

Mr. Whitley. How long has he occupied that position in your 
institution ? 

Dr. Sherman. Since May 1937. 

Mr. Whitley. Is he a native-born American citizen ? 

Dr. Sherman. He is a native of Vienna, Austria. 

Mr. Whitley. Since he has been connected with your institution as 
a teacher of German has he indicated any sympathy for the present 
Nazi regime in Germany? 

Dr. Sherman. No. 

Mr. Whitley. What has been his attitude with reference to the Nazi 
government ? 

Dr. Sherman. Dr. Kraus on coming to America immediately be- 
came an American citizen. He left Germany because he was not in 
sympathy with the conditions there. He teaches German and also one 
course in philosophy. He was originally trained in philosophy, and 
in the course of teaching in German philosophy he made it clear that 
he was bitterly opposed to the Nazi system. He is thoroughly demo- 
cratic — liberal and democratic. 

Mr. Whitley. Has that attitude on his part toward the Nazi gov- 
ernment been rather generally known in that section of the country? 

Dr. Sherman. That is known — quite generally known. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you describe for the committee, or explain to 
the committee, the events leading up to the meeting that you had some 
time ago with a representative of the Nazi government ? 

Dr. Sherman. The story begins in the fall of 1937, after Professor 
Kraus had begun his service with the university. There began a series 
of attacks through rumor or innuendo against Professor Kraus; first, 
to the effect that he did not speak correct German; and then to the 
effect that he had not had the training that he claimed at the University 
of Vienna. Of course, we could check on those things, and usually we 
could trace the rumors back to the same source, which would be an 
antidemocratic source, and, although we would find that to be the 
case, we oftentimes would not be able to prove it. We knew it, or we 
knew where the direct indications pointed. Then came attacks of a 
personal character, which we could laugh down, because we knew his 
character. He was a very fine man. Then it all died down for nearly 
6 months. Then, on the 10th of March 1938, a stranger, or one who 
was a stranger to us, called my office and got my secretary, identifying 
himself as Mr. Ernest Berger, a German consul-general delegate. He 
did not state that he was the consul-general delegate. 

Mr. Whitley. He did not identify himself at that time as a consul- 
general delegate? 

Dr. Sherman. No; not at that time. The university had recently 
received a donation of an important private library, and that had been 
spread in the papers. This gentleman called to say that he had noticed 
we were receiving such a donation, and that he had a friend that he fift 
believed could be induced to give us some books. He asked if we would 
like such a donation. I said "Yes," or the secretary did. I was out of 
town at the time. He said, "Very well," he would try to make an 
arrangement for an interview. About 3 days later he called to make a 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3963 



in vn 






definite appointment, and made an appointment for the 16th of March 
1938. On the 16th he called to say that his friend would not be able 
to get there on the 16th ; that he was the German consul at New Orleans 
and had been delayed on the way oyer, and would not get there until 
the 17th. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the first you knew about him? 

Dr. Sherman. That is the first 1 knew who this donor was, and 
naturally it started me to thinking. When the consul came he was 
the German consul general to New Orleans. 

Mr. Whitley. What was his name? 

Dr. Sherman. The name is Baron Edgar Freiberr Spiegel von 
und zu Peckelsheim. He arrived with the consul delegate, who in- 
troduced him. It was the first I had met the man. I at once turned 
to Mr. Berger. and said, "Is this the gentleman who is giving us the 
books? The baron immediately said, "Not I, but my Government." 
tely bs jj e corrected me at once. Well, that is all I wanted to know. 
" l, t: Mr. Whitley. Did he elaborate on it? 

Dr. Sherman. We were not interested in the books. The Baron 
went on to tell me about it. I drew him out some. I did not make 
known then we did not want the books. He said that they were in 
the practice of thus encouraging the study of German in American 
colleges. He made it perfectly clear that he had given such books 
elsewhere. He did not say where, and I did not ask him. He said 
that it was, of course, important that they be assured that we had a 
proper department of German to use the books, that the professor 
was all right, and that he wanted to know whether the professor in 
charge was adequate, and whether I would see that he spoke the 
German language correctly from the Government's point of view. 
At that point the conversation ceased to be pleasant, and we engaged 
in mutual recriminations. That disposed of it. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he make any suggestion as to whether your 
present German professor would be acceptable to him or to his Gov- 
ernment ? 

Dr. Sherman. Not directly. He said that the man that used these 
books would have to be acceptable. I told him that I did not believe 
our professor would be acceptable, and turned to the local man, 
Berger, reminding him who our professor was. There was no direct 
statement that our professor would not be acceptable but simply the 
statement that he must be acceptable, or that we must have a pro- 
fessor who would be acceptable. 

Mr. Whitley^. The condition on which the Government would do- 
ntifyinj nate those books to the German library was that your professor of 
:>/H German must be acceptable to them \ 

Dr. Sherman. Yes sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That the man who was to use the books in the 
teaching would have to be approved by them? 

Dr. Sherman. Yes, sir. 
jliifr Mr. Whitley. He made that condition clear? 

Dr. Sherman. That condition was made very clear. The original 

offer of the books made, not by the consul general, but by the consul 

ffoufl delegate over the phone, before they came there, was that these books 

which his friend was to give were books in German and also books 

about Germany. Those two classes of books were specified. 



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3964 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. You also stated that the German consul general, 
in his conversation with 3 T ou leading up to the condition attached to 
it, made it clear that similar offers had been made to other institu- 
tions, and this was not an isolated instance? 

Dr. Sherman. What he said was, "We are in the practice.' 5 

Mr. Whitley. In the practice of donating them ? 

Dr. Sherman. Yes, sir; that is what he said, in the practice of 
putting them where he would be sure that they would be properly 
used. That is the way he expressed it. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it your impression from your conversation with 
the consul that he was doing it voluntarily, on his own part, as an 
individual, or that he was doing it on behalf of the Xazi Govern- 
ment which he represented ? 

Dr. Sherman. Mr. Berger, the consul delegate, had given the im- 
pression it was to be a private donation, but almost the first word 
the baron spoke disclaimed that, and made it clear that it was a 
governmental donation. Mr. Berger. I might add. resigned as con- 
sul delegate shortly after that. He has shown great dissatisfaction 
with the developments that have grown out of this. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it also your impression. Doctor, that the fact 
that your German professor was not sympathetic with the teachings 
of Nazi Germany had become known, and that that might have 
inspired this offer with the reservations that were attached \ 

Dr. Sherman. I believe it entirely proved it. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, the circumstances lead to that belief? 

Dr. Sherman. Yes. Our professor had made addresses, and nu- 
merous addresses, mostly before the American Legion, Daughters of 
the American Revolution, and other patriotic societies, and educa- 
tional groups. He made addresses that were very critical of the 
Nazi regime. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know of any similar instances that have oc- 
curred, so far as this particular consul was concerned \ 

Dr. Sherman. Only by indications. In the first place, so far as 
can be ascertained locally, although he made many social visits to 
Tampa, my college is the only place at which the baron attempted 
to transact any actual business. It would seem to indicate that pos- 
sibly he came there for that purpose, although, again, that is only 
what we think. I put it out of mind, regarding it merely as a local 
attack on our professor until the meeting of the Southern Associa- 
tion of Colleges at Memphis in March 1939. one year later, when it 
developed in a personal conversation with President Rufus Harris, 
of Tulane University, that he was quite discontented with the activ- 
ities of this same man around his campus, the baron, he said, having 
smuggled to various faculty groups, treating them with more than 
due friendship. It was. as a result of the conversation with Presi- 
dent Harris, that I asked him, as president of a much older and 
stronger institution, to take up the matter, and follow it through, and 
let me out of it. T expected myself to be able to keep out of this 
limelight. It is rather damaging to a college executive to be too much 
in (lie papers. It is damaging to his professional reputation. I will 
be glad if all these photographs are rejected in the editorial room. 

Mr. Whitley. After the date of the appointment, or at the first 
meeting with the consular representative in Tampa, Mr. Berger. was 
there any indication on his part, identifying this visitor as the per- 
son who was to donate these books? 



UN-AMKUICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3%5 

Dr. Sherman. The first inquiry made was to indicate that this 
was simply, as he said, that a friend would give the hooks; that it 
was simply from some local source. The only other thought as to 
Berger was that before that time his son, a few months hefore, had 
been an applicant for a position in our music faculty, and I first 
thought that the father was trying to sweeten the way a little for 
his son. 

Mr. Whitley. When the appointment was made, did this consul 
delegate say that this German consul general at New Orleans was 
coming to see you with reference to the donation of the books? 

Dr. Sherman. No: that did not come out until the time the visit 
was postponed. 

Mr. Whitley. It was not before that? 

Dr. Sherman. It was the day he arrived. 

Mr. "Whitley. During the conversation with you, did the Baron 
indulge in any criticism or remarks insofar as the Jewish race was 
concerned, or did lie suggest excluding them from your institution? 

Dr. Sherman. He told me that he thought the fact that we had 
no quota restriction upon Jews in our college and that we had Jews 
in our faculty was a mistake, and he predicted that from other ex- 
periences we would regret it. 

Mr. Whitley. That covers all the questions I have in mind, Mr. 
Chairman. 

The Chairman. Who is this man Berger ? 

Dr. Sherman. Mr. Ernest Berger is a resident of Tampa. 

The Chairman. Is he a citizen of the United States? 

Dr. Sherman. So far as I know, yes ; I think he is. He is an in- 
vestment broker, having offices in Tampa and New York. 

The Chairman. What was the name of his boy? 

Dr. Sherman. His son spells his name B-e-r-g-e-r-e. He calls him- 
self Bergere, being a musician. 

The Chairman. Do you know, whether or not, Mr. Berger was ever 
identified with the German-American Bund? 

Dr. Sherman. I do not know. There is a German-American so- 
ciety in Tampa. I have no way of knowing whether Berger acted 
for them or not. He was the consul delegate in Tampa at that time, 
and resigned shortly after. 

The Chairman. Do you know anything about the activities of the 
bund in connection with the university? Has there been any effort, 
so far as you know, to build up some of their activities in the uni- 
versity \ 

Dr. Sherman. I have every reason Ob believe that there has been no 
such activity. 

The Chairman. When you spoke of an association — you referred to 
an association of southern universities. 

Dr. Sherman. Yes; of Southern universities and colleges, of 11 
Southern States. They have an association which meets from year 
to year. 

The Chairman. Did you talk to any other college professors or 
presidents about this matter, other than the president of Tulane 
University ? 

Dr. Sherman. No, sir. I tried to tell my story to him in order 
that he might have whatever he wanted to work out or get out of 
it. I wanted as little as possible. 









3966 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Did he describe to you the character of the activi- 
ties that this Baron engaged in in and about his university? 

Dr. Sherman. Yes. He said he did not like the activities of this 
man around the university. He used the words "snuggling to them. n 

The Chairman. That is, cultivating them ? 

Dr. Sherman. Cultivating the faculty of Tulane University. 

The Chairman. Did he say that the Baron was undertaking to get 
the faculty to place the Germans in a favorable light in their class- 
rooms, or how did you construe the statement that he was snuggling 
with the faculty ? 

Dr. Sherman. His statement was that he was snuggling, and that 
he did not like it. He gave me the impression that he did not like 
it. That is the idea — that it amounted to indirect pressure. 

The Chairman. Did he give any details of the man's activities ? 

Dr. Sherman. No, sir; except that he was glad to get my instance 
to add to his. I imagined he was one of the men who would come 
before the committee. 

Mr. Mason. You say that it is your impression that this man 
Berger is a citizen of the United States? 

Dr. Sherman. I only know this — that when this matter came out 
in some way, in Pearson and Allen's Merry-Go-Round, when they 
got hold of this incident and published it, in his reaction to it, he 
first entered a denial. The baron, who professed not to be able to 
remember much about the visit, said he had been to Tampa Uni- 
versity and had been insulted there by either the president or some- 
body down there ; he was not sure who. At the same time, there 
was a very indignant letter from Mr. Berger, who apparently felt 
that he had been put in a bad light by the Merry-Go-Bound article. 
He also reminded me truthfully that the baron had not made the 
offer of books, which is true. Berger made the offer before the 
baron came. The baron then transferred the offer from himself to 
the Government. 

I wrote back to Berger advising him not to say or do anything 
which might look like obstructing the efforts of our Government 
to trace or control such activities by foreign powers within our 
borders. In reply to that letter there came one from him which 
concluded with the words, "Above all, we are both good Americans," 
and protesting his loyalty to the State and the university. He did 
not profess specifically loyalty to the United States, although he 
said he was a good American. I do not know whether he is a citizen 
or not. 

Mr. Mason. Would you gafher from his expression that "we are 
both good Americans" that he was a citizen? 

Dr. Sherman. He certainly was implying that. 

Mr. Mason. The question in my mind is whether this man is a 
citizen of the United States while acting in the official capacity of ;i 
consul delegate for a foreign government. I should think that would 
be impossible. 

Dr. Sherman. I do not know concerning that. I am under the 
impression that the State Department wrote and inquired about this 
matter, and the letter from one of the Assistant Secretaries of State 
stated that they there had no record of Mr. Berger as a consul 
delegate. Nevertheless, he carried that title and had that office in 
Tampa for a considerable time. I have been told that the consul 






IX AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3967 



must be a citizen of the country represented, but that in small ports 
they did have consul delegates, who are natives of the receiving or 
host country, who represent the consul general. 

The Chairman. When this baron came to see you, he made it 
clear to you that any offer of any books you received would be con- 
ditioned 'upon the books being taught by the right sort of man? 

Dr. Sherman. Yes. 

The Chairman. And he made it clear that the books would come 
from his Government '. 

Dr. Sherman. Yes. 

The Chairman. Rather than from an individual? 

Dr. Sherman. Yes. I regret very much that I did not draw him 
out further. I was exactly at that point of getting all I wanted 
to know. 

The Chairman. You are certain that it was an effort to use your 
university to propagandize the Nazi Government? 

Dr. Sherman. Yes. I got rid of him as soon as I could. I realize 
now I should have drawn him out further. 

The Chairman. You referred to the Association of Southern Col- 
leges and Universities, but you do not know whether similar incidents 
occurred in other colleges besides Tulane University ? 

Dr. Sherman. No; I do not. I have learned since of similar in- 
stances on the Pacific coast, of which Mr. Whitley has information. 

The Chairman. The baron made it clear to you that it was his 
practice, or the Government's practice, to make these donations of 
books to colleges and universities under those conditions. He made it 
clear that it was a practice on the part of his Government? 

Dr. Sherman. He did. He now denies this. 

The Chairman. We thank you for your testimony. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, the other witness for today has been 
delayed unavoidably, and there is no other witness available at the 
moment and will not be any today. 

The Chairman. There is another witness here, I believe, whom Mr. 
Voorhis has requested, if possible, be held until he, Mr. Voorhis, 
reaches the city so he can ask him some questions. 

Mr. Whitley. That is right. 

The Chairman. That witness has been here several days, but he 
will not be heard today. 

Mr. AVhitley. The other witness I referred to is unavoidably de- 
tained and will not be here until tomorrow. 

Before the committee adjourns I would like to read into the record 
a few excerpts from German sources which I believe might be helpful. 

Mr. Mason. Before you proceed further I want to make a statement 
for the record, in regard to a news item I saw in the paper this morning 
in connection with a statement that Congressman Thomas has made 
and a statement that the chairman has made as to the program, or 
schedule, and purposes of the investigation. 

I want to say this emphatically, that it is my understanding that 
this committee, when it was set up, was to investigate subversive activ- 
ities, or un-American activities, regardless of where they were, regard- 
less of what group was engaged in such activities, and that there is no 
partisan matter to be considered, whether these subversive activities 
reach into the Republican camp or the Democratic camp or any other 
camp. 



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3968 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

That is not the purpose; and I, for one, as a member of this com- I flieC 
mittee, feel that we should not and must not make these investigations 
in any manner a partisan matter. If we do, we will then nullify or i 
kill the effectiveness of the work of the committee. We cannot be too 
guarded in that matter. 

That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, these excerpts I want to read into the 
record are all from official German sources. 

This is an excerpt from a decree which has to do with foreign 
travel by university teachers and students, and this particular ex- 
cerpt is an extract from a decree of the Minister of Education. In- 
cidentally, the original German is reproduced along with the trans- 
lation, and this will be turned over to the reporter. It says: 

It has frequently been observed of late that Germans, and especially pro- 
fessors and students, when traveling abroad for cultural or scientific purposes, 
have failed to establish contact with their local national official representa- 
tives. Such contact is especially important in countries where Jewry occupies 
a predominant influence in cultural affairs, and where emigrants seek to press 
into the foreground in questions concerning German cultural life. In these 
countries it is particularly necessary that German national guests, local or 
official, shall be informed of these local relationships by the official national 
representatives abroad. 

I therefore order that all persons subject to my Ministry — 

That is, the Minister of Education — 

who travel abroad for study, research, or lectures, or for congresses, or similar 
purposes, shall on their arrival in a foreign country forthwith get in contact 
with the competent local representative of Germany, with the Foreign Organi- 
zation of the Nazi Party, and with the branch office of the German Academic 
Exchange Service, wherever possible. If this be not done a short report of 
the reasons must be furnished to me. 

The reference there is very interesting, giving instructions that 
they will get in touch with the official representative of the German 
Government, and also with the Foreign Organization of the Nazi 
Party. 

The Chairman. It does not specify what the foreign organizations 
of the Nazi Party are ? 

Mr. Whitley. No; it does not specify that, but it is a general 
instruction, and it indicates that there is such an organization wher- 
ever travel might be performed. 

The next excerpt I want to read is from an article entitled "The 
Character of the Foreign Organization," by Dr. Ehrlich. He is 
the secretary of the Foreign Organization of the N. S. D. A. P. 
That is the National Socialist Party. He is the foreign secretary 
of the National Socialist Party. This article says : 

Just as the ambassador, the envoy, and the consul represent the government 
of our Reich abroad, so is the National Socialist group leader the standard 
bearer of the Foreign Organization, the representative of the Movement for 
German Reconstruction and German Conservation. He is the representative 
of the German Nation abroad. It is his responsibility to make the Foreign 
Organization the true homo of Germans abroad and to teach them to under- 
stand fully the present policy and the future plans of the Fuehrer, in spite of 
distance and in spite of the distorted influence of their environment. The 
loader of the National Group is the guaranty that national socialism will 
become something that is self-evident to the Germans abroad, just as their 
Germandom should be. and that the Foreign Organization of the N. S. D. A. P., 
on the basis of the decree of the Fuehrer of January 30, 1937, will become 
the Foreign Organization of the German Reich. 

Again, reference is to the foreign organizations of the party. 



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The Chairman. Your purpose, as I understand it, is to follow this 
up later with evidence from Germany that Germany has considered 
the German-American Bund as its foreign organization in the United 
States? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes, Mr. Chairman; and also, we have had consid- 
erable testimony with reference to bund activities now in this coun- 
try, and the connection with the various agencies of the Nazi govern- 
ment. 

These are verbatim quotations from the officials of that government 
concerning their foreign organizations and their foreign represent- 
atives. 

The testimony heretofore already presented, I believe, rather con- 
clusively indicates that the German-American Bund is one of those 
foreign organizations referred to. 

I merely want to read these excerpts in order to put into the record 
statements of Nazi officials concerning their activities. 

The Chairman. As I understand, in addition to this, however, there 
are statements by German officials to the effect that they themselves 
have recognized the German-American Bund as the representative of 
the Nazi government, or the National Socialist Party in the United 
States. 

Mr. Whitley. That specific reference to the United States is not 
made. These references are general, but not limited as to their 
scope. 

Mr. Mason. But, Mr. Whitley, if these are general and not specific 
in their scope, and apply to all countries, then we have definite testi- 
repo"rti mony that the German-American Bund, or some other organization 
in the United States is the representative of that government, then 
that ties these general statements to our situation. 

Mr. Whitley. That is right. 

Mr. Mason. And to the organizations that are operating in this 
country. 

Mr. Whitley. That is right; then these statements will apply to 
the organizations in this country. 

The Chairman. I understood that this committee had evidence, or 
there has been a tender of evidence, or of quotations from German 
officials themselves in which they have specifically designated the 
Bund as the representative of their government. It may be I am in 
error as to that. 

.Air. Whitley. We have the testimony to that effect. 

The Chairman. I know; I mean that in addition, there is testi- 
mony with certain quotations from these German leaders, as I under- 
stand. That will be developed later. 

Mr. Whitley. This is a quotation from an article by Dr. Friedrich 
Lange, who is the editor of the official publication for the V. D. A. 
in Berlin, which is the Foreign Institute, or one of the agencies of 
the Nazi government. This article, with the caption, "German Na- 
totf* tionalitv Throughout the World," savs: 

„„, \ There are approximate^ a hundred minion people in the world who speak 
German as their mother tongue. We are a nation of a hundred millions. Of 
these approximately 67,000,00) live in the German Reich; the others live in 

p 1 1 other countries. 

That statement is in keeping with previous testimony that all Ger- 
man-speaking people, wherever they are, belong to the Fuehrer, and 
irtv. are under the Nazi regime. 



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3970 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Another article by Dr. Friedrich Lange, who is the editor of the 
V. D. A., the official organ in Berlin, says : 

Thus we shall exterminate at its root the linguistic definition which speaks 
of the "Austrian brother nation" because a brother nation does not exist in 
Austria, in Memel, in Danzig, etc., for there is only one German nation which 
may be forced to live in different states or under special political conditions. 
Never again shall we call a foreign city with German inhabitants by an alien 
name. 

That is in keeping with previous testimony as to the attitude of 
German officials with reference to German-speaking people, regard- 
less of their citizenship or the country in which they reside. 

This is a quotation from Dr. Hermann Goering, colonel-general 
and Prussian minister of the interior. This is a quotation from an 
article entitled, "Foreword to 'We Germans in the World,' " and it 
says: 

"We Germans throughout the world" is a term which expresses to every 
German in the Reich the credo of unity with Germandom abroad. Everyone 
must do his share through unswerving devotion and sacrifice so that Germany 
may give to the Germans abroad what they are entitled to demand. 

There is no distinction there as to citizenship. 

This is from a speech by Rudolph Hess at the conference of Ger- 
man chambers of commerce abroad, delivered in Berlin on June 28, 
1934. Mr. Rudolph Hess is one of the ranking Nazi officials. It 
says : 

I consider it to be the special duty of the National Socialist state to rectify 
this mistake and to work out a common basis for cooperation between Germans 
in the Reich and Germans abroad. 

The new Germany needs and expects the cooperation, the spiritual and men- 
tal willingness to sacrifice on the part of all her racial comrades abroad. Their 
positive cooperation shall be included in our great German racial community. 

One other quotation. This is from a proclamation to members of 
the foreign division of the N. S. D. A. P., by Ernest Wilhelm Bohle, 
who is the head of the organization for Germans abroad. It says : 

Loyalty, discipline, and blind obedience are the foundation pillars of every 
branch of the National Socialist movement. The loose contact and the distance 
in mileage between party comrades abroad, even though the organization for 
Germans abroad is a solid unit, render these three virtues more necessary than 
ever for those of us who are in foreign countries. Therefore, we are doing 
right when we keep our organization abroad free of all racial comrades who 
are not ready to adhere to the absolute discipline customary with us. Tins is 
absolutely necessary for victory in the struggle for Germans living abroad. 

Those are all the quotations I have in mind, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The committee will take a recess until tomorrow 
morning at 10 : 30 o'clock. 

(Thereupon, the committee adjourned to meet tomorrow, Tuesday, 
August 22, 1939, at 10: 30 a. m.) 






INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 






TUESDAY, AUGUST 22, 1939 

House of Representatives, 
Special Committee to Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. C 

The committee met at 10 : 30 a. m., in the caucus room, House Office 
Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding. 

Present : Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. One of the im- 
portant phases of this investigation will deal with foreign propa- 
ganda. Our research department has devoted some 3 months to a 
study of foreign propaganda emanating from foreign countries. 

It is the chairman's idea that the research department of the com- 
mittee will prepare reports and submit them to the committee from 
time to time to show what efforts are made by foreign governments, the 
amounts of money set aside by foreign governments for propaganda 
purposes, newspaper items originating in the United States and pur- 
porting to come from foreign countries, but which really originate in 
America, and other matters relating to that subject. 

It is the chairman's idea that Mr. Matthews be instructed to pre- 
pare a series of reports giving all of the factual matters he has to the 
committee, so that we will have before us the books that have been 
printed in foreign countries dealing solely with the propaganda move- 
ment in the United States, and the general efforts being made to in- 
volve this country in a European war. 

I think that is one of the most important phases of this investigation, 
and I know of no other effective way to handle it, because we cannot 
subpena people from foreign countries. We will have some people in 
this country involved in it, but primarily, in view of the matter of 
economy, it seems to me, after thinking the matter over from every 
angle, that the most effective way to handle it is to have our research 
department submit to the committee a series of reports dealing with 
all these matters. 

Probably the first report will be in the hands of the committee by 
Saturday, and it will deal with British and French as well as German 
efforts to propagandize this country largely to involve us in war. 

I would suggest this to members of the committee with reference 
to the conduct of the examination of witnesses. These witnesses have 
previously been carefully examined by investigators, and I believe it 
will facilitate the progress of the hearings if we will permit counsel, 
as far as possible, to do the examining, and during his examination we 
will make notes, and upon the conclusion of counsel's examination 

3971 



3972 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

each member will be called upon to indicate whether he has any ques- 
tions to ask. 

In that way we can avoid confusion in the record, if we will stick 
to one point and develop that point, and then go, in a logical sequence, 
to another point, and it will serve to clarify the testimony. If we ^ 
jump from one phase to another phase it will bring about confusion. 

Again I want to caution the witness to make your answers respon- I shirt h 
sive to the questions. No statements really ought to be made by counsel 
or by members of the committee. We want to be courteous and fair Mr. ^ 
to all witnesses, and if a witness has an explanation — and oftentimes 
a witness may not be able to answer a question just by yes or no — it is I rion. am 
only fair that the witness be accorded an opportunity to make such a Mr. A 
pertinent explanation bearing' upon the particular question that is 
asked. H was. on 

It is not the disposition of the committee to want to be unfair to 1 selling c< 
any witness. We do not want to be in the role of a hard-boiled 
tribunal, but at the same time we want the witnesses to be courteous I breast, a 
to the committee and not engage in any personal altercation, which 
only makes for confusion and does not accomplish anything. 

So, if the witness will make answers responsive to the questions B the Unit 
asked we can get along a lot better this morning. V V 

The first witness this morning is Mr. Henry Allen. Will you pro- 
ceed, Mr. Whitley. 



TESTIMONY OF HENRY ALLEN. PASADENA, CALIF. 



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(The witness was sworn by the Chairman.) 

Mr. Whitley. Will you state your full name, Mr. Allen. 

Mr. Allen. Henry Allen. 

Mr. Whitley. You have no middle initial ? 

Mr. Allen. Henry D. Allen. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your present address? 

Mr. Allen. 2860 Nina Street, Pasadena. 

Mr. Whitley. Where were you born? 

Mr. Allen. Worcester, Mass. 

Mr. Whitley. When were you born? 

Mr. Allen. 1879. 

Mr. Whitley. Where were you educated ? 

Mr. Allen. In the schools of Boston. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the nature and extent of your educational )j,. \\ 
training? 

Mr. Allen. High school. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you in the World War ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you married or single? 

Mr. Allen. I am married. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have any children ? 

Mr. Allen. Three — I have four. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your present occupation ? 

Mr. Allen. At the present time I am engaged in exploring mining 
properties in Mexico. 

Mr. Whitley. How long have you been engaged in that occupation ? 

Mr. Allen. Some forty years. 

Mr. Whitley. What percentage of that time has been spent in the, 
United States? In other words, have you been working rather con- 
tinuously, or off and on, over a period of years, in Mexico? 



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UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3973 

Mr. Allen. Over a period of years, yes; but my home has always 
been maintained in California. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you a citizen of the United States? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you, Mr. Allen, ever been identified with or 
affiliated with the organization known as the Silver Shirts, or Silver 
Shirt Legion if 

Mr. Allen. At one time; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you describe for the committee the circum- 
stances under which you became interested in joining that organiza- 
tion, and where I 

Mr. Allen. I became a member of the organization in Los Angeles, 
and my attention to it was attracted one afternoon when, I think it 
was. on the corner of Hill and Sixth Streets there was a young man 
> selling copies of the official organ called ''Liberation." He was dressed 
in a distinctive uniform, with the red letter "L" on his left shirt- 
breast, and that attracted my attention, and I took one of the copies 
he held and looked it through, and I was impressed with the fact 
that they were evidently engaged in fighting Jewish communism in 
the United States at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. What do you mean, Mr. Allen, by Jewish commu- 
nism ? 

Mr. Allen. The subject matter of this article I glanced through 
identified Jews with communism. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you proceed. 

Mr. Allen. I asked where I could get further information in re- 
gard to the organization, and he directed me to a man's office in the 
Arcade Building, and then, if I recall, I went there that afternoon, 
and he asked me if I had ever read the Protocols, if I was familiar 
with it. and I told him I was not. 

He gave me a copy to read, which I did, and a few days after that 
I called at their headquarters, at that time in the Walker Auditorium 
Building and a month or so after that I felt that I wanted to become 
a member, and I signed a card. 

The Chairman. Right there, you did not establish what year that 
was. May I suggest that you establish the year and the locality? 

Mr. Whitley. That was in what year? 

Mr. Allen. I think that was in the latter part of 1933 ; in the fall 
of 1933. if I recall. 

Mr. Whitley. And it was in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Alien. It was in Los Angeles; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Those are the circumstances under which you first 
became interested in the organization known as the Silver Legion? 

Mr. Allen. That was my first kinnvledge of there being any such 
organization. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that the first time you had become interested in 
the subjects with which that organization deals? 

Mr. Allen. No ; I had made some study of the Jewish question, 
if you wish to call it that. 

Mr. Whitley. You mentioned that you went to the headquarters 
of the Silver Shirts in Los Angeles. Thev did have headquarters 
there? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

94931—39 — vol. 6 18 









3974 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. And an organization there? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was the head of that organization? 

Mr. Allen. At that time the man in charge of that post — it was 
called a post, and the man in charge of that post was one Capt. 
Eugene Case. 

Mr. Whitley. After you had decided to join the organization, did 
you become active in its affairs; did you become an active member 
in any capacity, as a speaker or a writer? 

Mr. Allen. No ; not at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. You just joined. 

Mr. Allen. We attended the meetings that were held at the vari- 
ous posts around in the Los Angeles district. 

Mr. Whitley. Approximately, to the best of your recollection, how 
many such posts were there in that vicinity in 1933 and 1934? 

Mr. Allen. I recall one post in Hollywood, one in Pasadena, and 
then there was one post, if I remember, out on Vermont Avenue 
somewhere. There were several posts. 

Mr. Whitley. They were all active? 

Mr. Allen. They were all active ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they hold regular meetings ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; they held regular meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. You stated, in response to my question, that you did 
not become active in the organization. 

Mr. Allen. Not at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you subsequentlv become active in the organiza- 
tion ? 

Mr. Allen. Not in the organization, as such. 

Mr. Whitley. Not in the organization? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever meet Mr. William D. Pelley? 

Mr. Allen. I have. 

Mr. Whitley. When did you meet him, and where ? 

Mr. Allen. I think I first met him in 1935. I think in the summer 
of 1935. 

Mr. Whitley. Where was that meeting? 

Mr. Allen. I met him at a meeting which he had, or which had 
been called for the rank and file of the Silver Shirts in that area at the 
German House. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the headquarters of the German-American 
Bund in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did the individual members of the Silver Shirts or 
did the Silver Shirts as a group frequently meet in the German 
House ? 

Mr. Allen. Not frequently. The German House — and I may say 
the reason the Silver Shirts organization met at the German House 
was because that was the only auditorium in the metropolitan area of 
Los Angeles which could be used or rented for the purposes of any 
such meeting. That was the reason the meetings were held there. 

Mr. Whitley. That was the only reason ? 

Mr. Allen. The only reason. 

Mr. Whitley. To what extent did the Silver Shirts organization 
cooperate with or collaborate with the German-American Bund in 
Los Angeles, in meetings or demonstrations, or social affairs? 



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l.\ AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3975 

Mr. Allen. To my knowledge, there was no collaboration with the 
I rerman-American Bund, as such. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you at that time personally acquainted with 
any of the officials — of course, at that time it was not the German- 
American Bund, but it was the "Friends of New Germany." 

Mr. Allen. At that time it was the "Friends of New Germany" ; yes. / 

Mr. Whitley. Were you personally acquainted with the officials 
of that organization in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were the officials of that organization in Los 
Angeles in 1933 and 1934? 

Mr. Allen. There were several, but the only one I recall was Mr. 
Herman Schwinn. 

Mr. Whitley. To your knowledge, he has been active in the 
Friends of New Germany back as far as 1933? 

Mr. Allen. Yes: and I believe even before that. 

Mr. Whitley. What was his official capacity in the organization, 
the Friends of New Germany? 

Mr. Allen. I was given to understand he was the managing head 
of it, or at the head of it. 

Mr. Whitley. Did the Friends of New Germany have a division 
known as the far western division? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I do not know; I could not say as to that. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Mr. Herman Schwinn sub- 
sequently became the head of the German-American Bund when the 
bund replaced the previous organization, which was the Friends of 
New Germany? 

Mr. Allen. I am given to understand that that is his position 
today. 

Mr. Whitley. That is his position '. 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Coming back to the activities of the Silver Shirts 
during that period, what other individuals or groups, did they co- 
operate with in their activities, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. I do not know ; I have never known any of the groups* 
I was only interested in the objectives of the Silver Shirts. 

Mr. Whitley. What were the objectives of the Silver Shirts you 
approved of, and which caused you to join that organization? 

Mr. Allen. To rid the Government of the United States, the Fed- 
eral Government, of Jews and Communists. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, it was an anti- Jewish organiza- 
tion; their teachings were anti-Jewish? 

Mr. Allen. Not particularly anti-Jewish; as I understood, and 
have always understood the objectives of the Silver Shirts, it was, 
a? I said, then to rid the Government of communistic Jews. 

Mr. Whitley. Did the Silver Shirt organization advocate any 
form of Fascist or Nazi government, or any radical change in our 
form of government, the republican form of government? 

Mr. Allen. That is something that is going to be rather difficult 
for me to answer, because personally I have never been able to dis- 
cover just what was meant by the term "fascist" in this country, nor 
by the term "nazi" in this country. 

Mr. Whitley. What would be your interpretation of the fascist or 
the nazi form of government, Mr. Allen? We will approach it from 
your own viewpoint. 



3976 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. All that I know, of course, is what I read in the papers 
as to what fascism or nazi-ism is in Europe, and I can only say that 
any knowledge I have of the Fascist government or the Nazi gov- 
ernment is what I see is going on in Europe. 

Mr. Whitley. They are both dictatorships? 

Mr. Allen. Entirely dictatorships, I would say. 

Mr. Whitley. With all personal rights subjugated to the rights 
of the state as such? 

Mr. Allen. If you are to believe what is in the newspapers, I 
presume so; but I do not believe a lot of it. 

Mr. Whitley. At the time of your meeting with Mr. William Dud- 
ley Pelley, of Asheville, N. C, who is the head of the Silver Shirts, in 
Los Angeles, in 1935 

Mr. Allen. Yes ; I think it was in 1935. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the occasion of that meeting? Did you 
seek him out? 

Mr. Allen. No; I was just introduced to him as many others were 
that evening, when he spoke. 

Mr. Whitley. At a meeting of the Silver Shirts, he was out there? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. At a meeting of his organization, in behalf of his 
organization ? 

Mr. Allen. He was the principal speaker. 

Mr. Whitley. Approximately how many members of the Silver 
Shirt organization were there in that section at that time, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. That is something I could not possibly state, because I 
have asked the same question a number of times but never received an 
answer that really meant anything. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they have a large membership; about the meet- 
ings, were they well attended ? 

] Mr. Allen. I can say that the meetings of this Metropolitan Post, 
'of which I was at that time a member, were held once and sometimes 
twice a week at the Walker Auditorium, and they were attended. I 
would say, by some 1,500 — in other words, the capacity of the audi- 
torium would be about 1.500. 

Mr. Whitley. That was just one group? 

Mr. Allen. That was that group. 

Mr. Whitley. There were numerous other groups in southern Cali- 
fornia ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Where did this meeting take place at which you met 
Mr. Pelley? 

Mr. Allen. That is the one I speak of. 

Mr. Whitley. At the Walker Auditorium ? 

Mr. Allen. No; at the German-American Bund. 

Mr. Whitley. At the German House? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. )[ 

Mr. Whitley. Was the meeting there a Friends of New Germany 
meeting, or a Silver Shirt meeting? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir; it was essentially and only a Silver Shirt meet- 
ing. The auditorium was rented from the German-American Bund 
for the purpose of a Silver Shirt meeting. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they in any way assist in making plans for that 
meeting, or cooperate in that meeting? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3977 

Mr. Allen. In no way. 

Mr. Whitley. It was just purely a business proposition when the 
auditorium was rented? 

Mr. Allen. The only one that was available to that type of meeting. 

Mr. Whitley. Did von have any personal conversation with Mr. 
Pelley? 

Mr. Allen. No; just a few words of greeting. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you get the impression from his speech at that 
time, or had you got the impression from his writings that he was 
anti-Jewish? 

Mr. Allen. Well, the flavor of his speech, as I recall it, was essen- 
tially the fact that you could not talk about communism without 
talking about Jews; that if you did not talk about Jews you were re- 
moving the substance and essence of communism. 

Mr. Whitley. He did not approach it, or attack communism as 
such ; he attacked it through the Jews ? 

Mr. Allen. No; he attacked communism very definitely, as such, 
and then he went on to describe the identity of the Jews behind it. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever hear Mr. Pelley express admiration 
for the Nazi form of government, or any so-called Fascist form of 
government ? 

Mr. Allen. I cannot say that I have ever heard him express any 
admiration for them. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever hear him express agreement with that 
form of government? 

Mr. Allen. Only, insofar as I recall, in one part of his speech, 
insofar as that Mr. Hitler has been successful in ridding the German 
nation of Jews from the government. 

Mr. Whitley. And insofar as that part of Mr. Hitler's program / 
was concerned, Mr. Pelley was in accord with it? 

Mr. Allen. He apparently was. 

Mr. Whitley. Following that time, about 1935 — up until that time 
you said you had not been active there, insofar as making speeches 
or writing articles was concerned? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. During that period were you following your pro- 
fession as an engineer ? 

Mr. Allen. No ; I was unemployed a great deal of that time. 

Air. Whitley. Did you ever become an active member of the Silver 
Shirts? 

Mr. Allen. Not of the Silver Shirts ; no, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. How long did you remain in the Silver Shirt organi- 
zation? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I lost contact with it, or rather, when the Dick- 
stein Committee ; the Dickstein Committee, as I recall, had their in- 
vestigation in Los Angeles in 1935, or along in there some time. 

Mr. Whitley. In 1934, 1 believe. 

The Chairman. That is the McCormack Committee. 

Mr. Allen. At any rate when that investigation took place in Los 
Angeles the meetings were stopped, and there were no more meetings, 
and everyone seemed to more or less withdraw. 

Mr. Thomas. I think we ought to clear up that point. The witness 
,j] iat said the Dickstein Committee, and I am not sure just what he means. 

Mr. Whitley. You mean the McCormack Committee ? 



3978 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. No ; I mean the Dickstein Investigating Committee. 

The Chairman. That committee was headed by Mr. McCormackJ 
of Massachusetts, but Mr. Dickstein was a member of it. 

Mr. Allen. I probably referred to it as being the Dickstein Com- 
mittee because that was what we thought, only of the name Dickstein, 
but possibly it was the McCormack committee; I do not know. 

Mr. Whitley. So it was at about the time of those hearings in 
Los Angeles that the membership of the Silver Shirts dissolved, or 
they stopped their activities? 

Mr. Allen. They seemed to stop all their activities at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. Stopped holding meetings? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; there were no more regular meetings held. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you formally resign from the organization, or 
just drop out? 

Mr. Allen. I just dropped out. 

Mr. Whitley. Prior to that time you had been a dues-paying 
member ? 

Mr. Allen. I never paid any dues. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you purchase some of the literature of the 
Silver Shirts put out by Mr. Pelley ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever read copies of liis publication called 
Liberation ? 

Mr. Allen. I have read that. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it not a fact, Mr. Allen, that in his publication 
he has supported the Nazi Government, Mr. Hitler, and the German- 
American Bund? Have you seen articles of that type in Liberation? 

Mr. Allen. I do not know that I have ever seen any articles that 
would lead me to believe he supported the Nazi Government in Ger- 
many. That would not be my interpretation of it. 

Mr. Whitley. The reference, as you recall, was as to his approval 
of the manner in which Hitler had handled the Jewish situation? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether, Mr. Allen, the membership 
of the Silver Shirt organization in Los Angeles overlaps with that 
of the German-American Bund, or its predecessor, the Friends of New 
Germany? In other words, are some members of the Silver Shirts 
members of the bund or its predecessor ? 

Mr. Allen. I know a great many of the members of the Silver 
Shirts, but I do not know that an} 7 one in my acquaintance is a 
member of the German-American Bund. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know that of your own knowledge? 

Mr. Allen. No ; not of my own knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. You stated, I believe, that there was no cooperation 
between the bund and the Silver Shirts, that the bund had a hall to 
rent, and sometimes you rented the hall from them? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Whitley, let us understand the witness clearly. 
We want to be fair to the witness. Is the witness answering that 
there was not any cooperation, or that while he was there he did 
not see any cooperation? 

Mr. Allen. That is right, 

Mr. Whitley. To your knowledge, there was no cooperation? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 



3979 



Mr. 

Mr. 

Air. 
Mr. 



Mr. Am. in. To my knowledge, there was no cooperation; that it, 
no exchange of membership. 

The Chairman. Did the witness state. Mr. Whitley, that members 
of the Silver Shirts did visit the bund and bund members would be 
present at Silver Shirts meetings ( Was that clarified ? 

Mr. Whitley. He stated, to his knowledge, there was no overlap- 
ping in membership. 

Mr. Allen. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they exchange literature? 

Allen. Yes. . 

Whitley. Or attend each other's meetings? ' 
Allen. Yes. sir. 

Whitley. In other words, bund members would attend Silver 
Shirt meetings \ 

Mr. Allen. I have seen, them ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And Silver Shirt members, to your knowledge, at- 
tended bund meetings? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Was Silver Shirt literature sold at bund meetings? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. It was sold? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That is, Mr. Pelley's literature? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. To your knowledge, was the literature of any other 
group or organization sold at bund meetings? 

Mr. Allen. As a rule, at all bund meetings which I have attended, 
or any of the Silver Shirt meetings which I have attended, all 
literature of the recognized groups combating Jewish communism 
were on sale. 

The Chairman. Mr. Whitley, did you clarify why the witness 
quit the Silver Shirts? 

Mr. Whitley. He said that, following the hearings of the Mc- 
Cormack committee on the west coast, they became inactive. 

The Chairman. I know, but with reference to himself, why did 
this witness, who apparently still believes in the fundamental prin- 
ciples of the Silver Shirts, quit the organization? 

Mr. Whitley. I believe, Air. Chairman, he stated he did not quit, 
but the organization for the time being became inactive and he just 
dropped out; he never formally withdrew. 

Air. Allen. In other words, there was no activity. 

Air. Whitley. There was no activit}^? 

Mr. Allen. There was no activity. 

Air. Whitley. You did not drop out because you disapproved the 
principles of the Silver Shirts? 

Air. Allen. No, sir. 

Air. Whitney. And you did not drop out because of any differ- 
ences with them '. 

Air. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. The organization temporarily became inactive ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And you dropped out and did not resume any active 
affiliation? 



3980 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. That is correct. 

Mr. "Whitley. When was that, approximately; what date did you 
become inactive? 

Mr. Allen. I think that was late in 1935 or the early fall. 

Mr. Whitley. That was still before the German-American Bund 
had replaced the predecessor organization, the Friends of New Ger- 
many ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I do not recall that date, but I think it was alon^ 
in that time; I would say so; j T es, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You mentioned a moment ago that members of thb 
recognized groups attended each other's meetings and exchanged liter- 
ature or sold each other's literature? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you name for the record, Mr. Allen, those recog- 
nized groups that were — I presume you mean the recognized groups 
that were following the same general principles as Mr. Pelley's organ- 
ization ? 

Mr. Allen. More or less ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you name those groups or individuals who were 
connected with them? 

Mr. Allex. I do not know; they were just individuals. I do not 
know that I recall their names nor who they were at that time. It is a 
number of years ago. The principal exchange that Mas made, or prin- 
cipally the literature that we had there was mostly from either Pelley's 
organization or the German-American Bund. And there were other 
pamphlets that were written by one man or another in any part of the 
country that had come to the notice of anybody, and that would be put 
on sale there. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Mr. Gerald Winrod, of Kansas; was any 
of his literature or any of his publications on sale? 

Mr. Allex t . I think possibly there were some copies of the Defender Ji r 
there at different times, but not regularly. )[, 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have material at those meetings, either 
Silver Shirt meetings or meetings of the Friends of New Germany, that 
had come directly from German sources, such as editions put out by 
World Service? 

Mr. Allen. There were copies of World Service. 

Mr. Whitley. Or the Fichte Bund ? 

Mr. Allex. I do not recall that, but there were copies for free dis- 
tribution of World Service lying around. 

Mr. Whitley. Any of Mr. Julius Streicher's literature? 

Mr. Allen. There may have been. 

Mr. Whitley. Julius Stunner? 

Mr. Allen. I do not recall; there may have been. The World 
Service I recall. 

Mr. Whitley. You recall that ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And you recall that there was other literature of a 
German source at those meetings? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir 



Mr. Whitley. Either being sold or being distributed free of charge? 
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Will you follow that up and name these other 
organizations? 



ILV" 

Mr, 
Contro 

Mr., 
Mr. 

Mr. A 
llr.fl 
Mr. A 
Mr, 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3981 

Mr. Whitley. Yes; I am going to do that, Mr. Chairman. 

What other members of organizations or groups of organizations 
do you consider were the leading groups, as you referred to them a 
moment ago, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. You mean as of that year? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Allen. In existence at that time? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. You mentioned Mr. Pelley and the bund. I 
mentioned Mi'. Winrod and you said that he was considered one of 
the leaders in that field ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. Ask the witness specific questions about certain 
ones. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Mr. George Deatherage, of St. Albans, 

W. Va.? 

Mr. Allex. I did not know Mr. George Deatherage, had never 
heard of him at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. You had not heard of him at that time? 

Mr. Allen. Not at that time; no, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Y^ou have since heard of him? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And have had dealings with him? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know of Mr. James True at that time? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you seen copies of his Industrial Control Re- 
ports ? 

Mr. Allen. I had. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you seen copies of those reports for distribu- 
tion at German bund meetings? 

Mr. Allen. Xo, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you seen them at Silver Shirt meetings? 

Mr. Allen. I do not recall that I ever saw any for distribution at 
any of the Silver Shirt meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you personally receive copies of the Industrial 
Control Reports? 

Mr. Allen. I did through friends; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, I mention Robert Edmondson. 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. He was considered one of the leaders? 

Mr. Allen. Y"es. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Of the group who were in that movement at that 
time? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Any others that you recall at the moment? 

The Chairman. Y^ou did not clarify that with reference to Mr. 
Edmondson. Did they have Mr. Edmondson's literature there? 
, f| Mr. Whitley. Was Mr. Edmondson's literature present for distri- 
bution at the meetings ? 

Mr. Allen. I do not recall ever having seen any of that literature; 
neither Mr. Edmondson's or Mr. True's for distribution at those 
meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not recall having seen it there ? 

Mr. Allen. That is correct. 



3982 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Was Mr. Frank Clark, of Takoma- 






Mr. Allen. At that time we had not heard of him at all. 

Mr. Whitley. You had not heard of him at that time ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Not at that time ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you subsequently heard of him ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And do you now consider him active in that move- 
ment ? 

Mr. Allen. I do not know a thing in the world about the man. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know a thing about him I 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Never met him ? 

Mr. Allen. Never. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you seen or distributed any of his literature? 

Mr. Allen. Never. 

Mr. Whitley. What other individuals or groups were considered 
among the leaders at that time? Mr. Allen, I am now referring to 
the period when you were in the Silver Shirts; that is, 1933 to 1935, 
approximately. 

Mr. Allen. Exactly. At that time the only organization as such 
that I was at all interested in was the Silver Shirts. 

Mr. Whitley. Was there any literature of the Ku Klux Klan avail- 
able at either Silver Shirt or bund meetings ? 

Mr. Allen. Never saw any of it. 

Mr. Whitley. How about the Italian groups, Italian fascist groups 
of organizations? 

Mr. Allen. Those had never come into the picture at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. Not at that time ? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. They have since. You have been in contact with 
them since, and we will get to that later, but we are now talking of 
the period that you have mentioned. 

Mr. Allen. Up to the early fall of 1935. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. How about the White Russians, so-called White 
Russian organizations; did you have any contact with them during 
that period? 

Mr. Allen. I believe I recall having been introduced to a few of 
the so-called White Russians in that area about that time ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. About that time? \ 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether they cooperated at any of the 
meetings of the Silver Shirts or of the bund ? 

Mr. Allen. Only as a part of the audience; that was all. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, for the sake of brevity, I am refer- 
ring here to the German organizations as the bund. As a matter of 
fact, during that period it was the Friends of New Germany, but at 
that time the same leader was at the head of that organization that 
the bund has now on the west coast, Mr. Herman Schwinn. 



\ 






ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3983 



The Chairman. I believe you have a list of the organizations 
there. I would suggest that you go through the list and ask him 
specifically concerning the literature of those organizations. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, I had not contemplated doing that 
right now for this reason. At the moment we are discussing the 
period up to 1935. He had not had contact with a lot of organiza- 
tions then that subsequently he has contacted. 

The Chairman. We are anxious to know every organization that 
had literature made available at the Silver Shirt meetings at that 
time. 

Mr. Whitley. I can run over the list now and later on he can, 
identify these organizations. 

The 'Chairman. That is between 1933 and 1934 you are dealing 
with? 

Mr. Whitley. 1933 and 1935. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Mr. Whitley. Were 'you at that time, Mr. Allen, acquainted with 
any officials or leaders of the Mexican Gold Shirt organization? I 
am referring again to the period 1933 to 1935. 

Mr. Allen. No : not at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. Later on you did become acquainted with some of 
those leaders? 

Mr. Allen. I became acquainted with one or two who said they 
were ; I do not know whether they were or not. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, so far as you know, there was no 
question of cooperation at that time, during that period, between 
the Silver Shirts or the bund, and the Gold Shirts? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you acquainted during that period with Mrs. 
Leslie Fry? 

Mr. Allen. Not at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. Or Mrs. W. K. Jewett? 

Mr. Allen. Not at that time; no, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Mr. Beamish, of South Africa, send any liter- 
ature to the Silver Shirts or the bund during that period? 

Mr. Allen. He never sent any to me and I do not think that 
Captain Beamish had sent any literature from South Africa at that 
time. 

Mr. Whitley. You had no contact with airy literature from the 
KuKluxKlan? 

Mr. Allen. None whatever. 

Mr. Whitley. That is, Mr. Hiram Evans ; what about Mr. William 
Kullgren, of Atascadero, Calif.? Were you acquainted with him 
during that period? 
of the Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. He is the publisher of the Beacon Light? 

Mr. Allen. I believe so. 

Mr. Whitley. That is his publication? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Martin Luther Thomas, of the Christian 
American Crusader, were you acquainted with him? 

Mr. Allen. I know about Mr. Thomas, but the Christian Cru- 
sader. I do not think was in existence at that particular time. 



3984 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Was Mr. Thomas cooperating in any way with the 
Silver Shirts or with the bund during that period ? 

Mr. Allen. We had talked several times with Mr. Martin Luther 
Thomas, and. as I recall the conversations, it looked as though he was 
very sympathetic to the same cause that we were fighting. 

Mr. Whitley. Had he attended meetings? 

Mr. Allen. I believe he did on several occasions. 

Mr. Whitley. Meetings of the Silver Shirts or of the bund, also? 

Mr. Allen. I do not think he ever attended any meetings of the 
bund; he may have: I do not know as to that. But I think he did 
attend meetings of the Silver Shirts, one or two meetings of the 
Silver Shirts. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he ever participate in a Silver Shirt meeting 
as a speaker? 

Mr. Allen. No. sir; not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. Did any of the officials of the German-American 
Bund during that period speak at Silver Shirt meetings? 

Mr. Allen. I could not say as to that positively. 

Mr. Whitley. Possibly they did? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did any of the members or officials of the Silver 
Shirts speak at bund meetings? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you during that period at any time appear as 
a sneaker? 

Mr. Allen. Not at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. Not at that time? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. But some other members of the Silver Shirts did? 

Mr. Allen. I think that there were some: I cannot say positively. 

Mr. Whitley. You did subsequently speak before the bund \ 

Mr. Allen. I have subsequently. 

Mi-. Whitley. We will get to that a little later, when we complete 
the period that we are now on. You do not recall any other groups 
of organizations at that particular time that were cooperating or 
collaborating with the Silver Shirts or the bund in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Allen. I do not think I recall anv others. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact. Mr. Allen, that period repre- 
sented more or less your initiation into those groups and organiza- 
tions; your 'acquaintanceship was not nearly as wide as it became 
subsequently; is not that a fact? 

Mr. Allen. That is quite true. 

Mr. Whitley. You had gone into the movement actively, and a 
great many individuals and organizations whom you later knew and 
cooperated with were unknown to you at that time? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; that is quite true. 

Mi-. Whitley. And if they were in existence or were active at 
that time, you did not know it? 

Mr. Allen. That is quite true. 

Mr. Whitley. After you got out of the Silver Shirt movement, 
or after it died down and yon dropped out. did you continue activi- 
ties of a similar nature either as an individual or with any other 
group or organization? 

Mr. Allen. Not with any organization. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3985 

Mr. Whitley. Not with any organization? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you since you chopped out of the Silver Shirts 
ever been affiliated with or identified with any other organization of 
a similar nature? 

Mr. Allen. None. 

Mr. Whitley. You have not? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you not have an organization of your own 
known as the American White Guard? 

Mr. Allen. I might qualify my answer, yes. The American White 
Guard was the outcome of the folding up, if you want to call it that, 
of the Silver Shirts at that time in the Los Angeles area. In other 
words, at the time of the Dickstein committee, after that investiga- 
tion took place 

Mr. AYhitley. You mean of the McCormack committee? 

Mr. Allen. Of the McCormack committee; several of us felt that 
we wanted to carry on with the same objectives and that was the 
reason the White Guard was formed. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were the officials of the Silver Shirts in Los 
Angeles at the time you were an active member there; that is, from 
1933 to 1935, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. I have already named Eugene Case. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were the others? 

Mr. Allen. There was a young man in the office there named Mark 
White. 

Mr. Whitley. Mark White? 

Mr. Allen. Mark White, who was the secretary of the post. There 
were one or two others whose names I do not recall for the moment, 
but they were not important, 

Mr. Whitley. Was Mr. Kenneth Alexander active in the Silver 
Shirt movement at that time? 

Mr. Allen. I had never heard of him or met him. 

Mr. Whitley. You say you had at that time? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And subsequently ? 

Mr. Allen. I have subsequently, but not at that time. 

Mr. W'hitley. We are still talking about this Silver Shirt period. 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. When the Silver Shirt groups became inactive 

The Chairman. Would it disrupt your line of questioning, Mr. 
Whitley, to ask this? You keep talking about the Silver Shirts 
being inactive. As a matter of fact, the witness is not maintaining 
that they are not active now in the United States; is he? 

Mr. Whitley. No; he is not. 

The Chairman. They have since been revived? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Allen. We are just talking about that little period there. 

The Chairman. I just wanted to clarify the point. Proceed. 

Mr. Whitley. When you say "they became inactive," you mean 
just temporarily? 

Mr. Allen. Temporarily so; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. They later were revived and are still active and 
flourishing today? 



3986 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. I presume they are ; I am not a member of it. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, they did not die completely at that 
time ; they just quieted down for awhile ? 

Mr. Allen. I think that is a better way to put it. 

The Chairman. Right in that connection, he says they quieted down 
for a while. Is it not a fact that they became a secret organization 
after that period? 

Mr. Whitley. Their activities became more sub rosa. 

Mr. Allen. More secretive. 

Mr. Whitley. Or underground. They took more pains to conceal 
their membership. 

Mr. Allen. There were no more meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. There were no more public meetings ? 

Mr. Allen. There were no more public meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, during the period you were an 
active member of the Silver Shirts, did not they hold their meetings 
under another name? Instead of sending out an announcement that 
the Silver Shirts would have a meeting at such and such a time, did 
not they send out an announcement that an organization, under some 
other name, would have a meeting? 

Mr. Allen. That may have been done, and if it was done — because 
I have heard that discussed — it was done because the auditoriums, 
most of the auditoriums in the metropolitan area of Los Angeles are 
owned or controlled by Jews and when we advertised or caused it to 
be known that we were going to hold a Silver Shirt meeting, as such, 
we found that the auditorium was not available. A number of times 
a false name was used for the purpose of getting our people together, 
and it became known to the Jews that in reality it was a Silver Shirt 
meeting for the purpose of discussing and combating communism, 
and the meeting was then canceled. 

Mr. Whitley. You stated that the meeting was canceled or the use 
of the auditorium was canceled. 

Mr. Allen. The use of the auditorium. 

Mr. Whitley. Because you were going to discuss communism. As 
a matter of fact, it was because you were going to discuss the Jews; 
is it not ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir; it was because we were going to discuss Jewish 
communism. 

The Chairman. I do not mean to interrupt, but you do not 
mean to imply that all Communists are Jews, do you? 

Mr. Allen. Not for a moment; nor that all Jews are Communists. 

Mr. Voorhis. May I ask a question? Surely. Mr. Allen does not 
mean to imply that speakers against communism could not get halls 
in Los Angeles. I live in that country and I know perfectly well 
that plenty of meetings against communism are held there. 

Mr. Allen. Yes ; I know that, too. 

Mr. Voorhis. I cannot understand your statement, then. 

Mr. Allen. I live there, and have lived there for many years, but 
any time that any of the groups who were combating communism, 
with its Jewish identity, tried to get a hall in Los Angeles, you just 
could not get one. 

Mr. Voorhis. In other words, the point is, just as Mr. Whitley 
made it awhile ago, the reason you could not get the hall was not 
because you were combating communism but for this other reason. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3987 

Mr. Alien. The reason we could not get the hall was because we 
were telling the truth, and we were identifying those who were 
behind communism. 

Mr. Voorhis. You could have had plenty of halls to make speeches. 

Mr. Allen. Just as we can gel halls if we do not refer to Jews. 
But the moment we tell the truth and we identify Jews with com- 
munism, we do not get a hall. 

Mr. Voorhis. How about the Walker Auditorium; you did not 
have any trouble getting it, apparently? 

Mr. Allen. The Walker Auditorium was gotten in the early stages 
| of this tight. 

Mr. Voorhis. But at that same time that you were getting the 
Walker Auditorium you say that you had to hold your meetings in 
the German House because you could not get any other hall. 

Mr. Allen. But the Walker Auditorium was only available on 
certain nights. 

The Chairman. Let us proceed. 

Mr. Whitley. After you became inactive in the Silver Shirts, you 
and some of the other members or officials of the Silver Shirts set 
up an organization known as the American White Guard; is that 
right ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. That was a small organization. 

Mr. Whitley. And were the purposes and objectives of the Ameri- 
can White Guard substantially the same as the purposes and objec- 
tives of the Silver Shirts? 

Mr. Allen. The same objectives; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How long was that organization in existence, Mr. 
Allen? 

Mr. Allen. A very short time, because » 

Mr. Whitley. A very short time '. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were the officials of that organization? 

Mr. Allen. The men who formed it were Colonel McCord, Major 
Fowler, Captain Case was one 

Mr. Whitley. Will you identify those men for us, if you can; 
can you give us their full names? 

Mr. Allen. I could not, because I do not recall. 

Mr. Whitley. Were they all Los Angeles men? 

Mr. Allen. They were all Los Angeles men; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Can you name any others? 

Mr. Allen. And Dr. Lackey. 

Mr. Whitley. They were the organizers? 

Mr. Allen. And myself. We were the organizers of it. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were the officers? 

Mr. Allen. That was all there was to the organization. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was the head of the organization? 

Mr. Allen. Colonel McCord. 

Mr. Whitley. Colonel McCord was the head of it ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What type of activity did that organization engage 
in? 

Mr. Allen. Combating of Jewish communism. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they have meetings? Did they make speeches? 



3988 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. We had meetings. We had one meeting in j \Ir,A 

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Patriotic Hall addressed by Red Hines, who was the head of the "red" 
squad of the police department of Los Angeles. 

The Chairman. Did he not say that they took over the work of the 
Silver Shirts? 

Mr. Whitley. He said their purposes and objectives were the same. 

Mr. Allen. We did not take over the work of the Silver Shirts; no. Mr, A 

Mr. Whitley. It was just an organization to carry on. I Hr.fl 

The Chairman. In the same manner ? I groups, 

Mr. Whitley. Where they left off. f Mi. A 

Mr. Alien. In the same manner; yes. ■ doing 

The Chairman. Proceed. JlrJ 

Mr. Whitley. You mentioned Colonel McCord. Is he an Army I chairma 
man? 

Mr. Allen. He was an Army man. 

Mr. Whitley. Active? 

Mr. Allen. Reserve officer. 

Mr. Whitley. He was a Reserve officer? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And I believe you mentioned some other official with 
a service title? 

Mr. Allen. Major Fowler. 

Mr. Whitley. Is he an Army man ? 

Mr. Allen. I could not say as to his standing. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether he is a Reserve officer or 
not? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. How long did the organization, the American White 
Guard, continue in existence? 

Mr. Allen. Oh, for several months. 

Mr. Whitley. Several months? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did it attempt to build up a membership? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. In that part of the country, either locally or on a 
national scale? I ][ r ^ 

Mr. Allen. No ; just locally. lj l;lt , 

Mr. Whitley. Just locally ? 

Mr. Allen. That is all. i;- 

Mr. Whitley. Did it have any success in that respect ? jj r j 

Mr. Allen. We seemed to be quite successful ; yes, sir. )j ^ 

Mr. Whitley. What was the reason for disbanding the organization }\ r 
or discontinuing it ? \j, 

Mr. Allen. Well, there were several reasons. Colonel McCord 
passed on and Dr. Lackey lost the sight of both of his eyes. We just 
simply felt that we would just disband. 

The Chairman. Can you get the witness to give the first names of 
these people? 

Mr. Whitley. He said he did not recall, Mr. Chairman. 

Following the discontinuance or dissolution of the American White 
Guard organization, what was the nature of your activities along this 
line subsequent to that time, Mr. Allen? Did you become identified jj r ', 
with any other organization? jj." 

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UN-AM UK ICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3Qg9 

Mr. Allen. None whatever; no. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you at any time since the American White 
Guard became inactive become affiliated with or a member of any 
group \ 

Mr. Allen. No group as such. 

Mr. Whitley. No organization as such? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You have worked independently with many of the 
groups, h<>\\ ever '. 

Mr. Allen. I have worked with all the groups that I felt were 
doing the job of fighting against Jewish communism. 

Mr. Whitley. We will get to the groups named a little later, Mr. 
Chairman. 

You have worked as an independent in that field? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You have cooperated with all of them, however, 

Mr. Allen. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Since that time; but as an independent and not as 
a member of the organization i 

Mr. Allen. I worked with all but joined none. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you, Mr. Allen, take part in a convention which 
was held in Los Angeles known as the anti-Communist convention? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. When was that convention held? 

Mr. Allen. That was held, if I recall, on the 6th, 7th, and 8th of 
August a year ago. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you explain whose idea the convention was and 
the purpose of the convention, for the record? 

Mr. Allen. The idea of the convention — I do not know as to whose 
personal idea it was ; it was talked over by a number ; Mrs. Fry ; Mr. 
Chapman, who was at that time in Glendale. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you identify Mrs. Fry for us? 

Mr. Allen. Mrs. Leslie Fry, otherwise known as Mrs. De Shish- 
mareff. 

Mr. Whitley. When did you first become associated with her? 

Mr. Allen. The first time I met Mrs. Fry was in the fall of 1936. 
That was just merely a casual meeting, how T ever. I only became 
associated with her and the work that she was doing in the fall 
of 1937. 

Mr. Whitley. A year later? 

Mr. Allen. A year later. 

Mr. Whitley. Actively associated with her? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the work that she was doing? 

Mr. Allen. She appeared to be carrying on the campaign against 
Jews and Communists in government. 

Mr. Whitley. Was she carrying on that campaign through some 
organization or did she have her own organization? 

Mr. Allen. She had what she told me was an organization called 
the Militant Christian Patriots. - 

Mr. Whitley. And did that organization have a publication? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. The organ was called the Christian Free Press. 

Mr. Whitley. And was she the leader of that organization, and 
was she the publisher of that paper? 

94931— 39— vol. 6 19 



3990 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. She was the publisher of the paper and the editor 
of it. She stated that she was at the head of the Militant Christian 
Patriots. 

Mr. Whitley. Is she the same Mrs. Fry who wrote the book 
Waters Flowing Eastward? 

Mr. Allen. She claims to have written the book. 

Mr. Whitley. She was one of the individuals who conceived this 
so-called anti-Communist convention which was held in Los Angeles 
during 1938? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. ' 

Mr. Whitley. I believe you said about a year ago. 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; a year ago. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were the others who planned and helped to 
organize this convention? 

Mr. Allen. Mrs. Jewett. 

Mr. Whitley. Mrs. W. H. Jewett? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Of Pasadena, Calif. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you identify her for the record, Mr. Allen, and 
who she was and the nature of her activities? 

Mr. Allen. The only thing I can say is she appeared to be associ- 
ated with Mrs. Fry. 

Mr. Whitley. She appeared to be associated with Mrs. Fry? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Associated with her in the same type of work? 

Mr. Allen. The same type of work. 

Mr. Whitley. Was she associated in connection with Mrs. Fry's 
organization or her publications? 

Mr. Allen. I am told so. 

Mr. Whitley. In what capacity? 

Mr. Allen. Well, that I couldn't say. 

Mr. Whitley. Did she assist in writing articles or did she finance 
Mrs. Fry's activities? 

The Chairman. If you know? 

Mr. Whitley. If you know. 

The Chairman. Don't testify about anything you do not know. 

Mr. Whitley. What you know personally. 

Mr. Allen. Personally I do not know. )j r 

Mr. Whitley. What her activities were? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You do know they were closely associated? }j r 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. All right. Who else assisted in calling this conven- 
tion, to organize this convention? 

Mr. Allen. A Mr. Chapman, who is also associated with Mrs. Fry. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his first name? 

Mr. Allen. Conrad Chapman. </ 

Mr. Whitley Conrad Chapman? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. He is associated with Mrs. Fry in her work ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In what capacity ; do you know ? 

Mr. Allen. I could not say in what work he did associate with 
her. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 39Q1 

Mr. Whitley. Would you say he was actively associated with her? 

Mr. Allen. Actively. 

Mr. Whitley. Who else; who was the individual or group of in- 
dividuals who were the moving spirits behind this convention? 

Mr. Allen. Well, as far as I know the thing was originated in 
Mrs. Fry's mind as being a good thing for that particular time. 

Mr. Whitley. And how did she go about carrying out this idea; 
did she send out invitations to individuals and groups to attend the 
convention? 

Mr. Allen. To individuals who were active in this work. 

Mr. Whitley. What group? 

Mr. Allen. The anticommunistic group. 

Mr. Whitley. It was an anticommunistic convention? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was the purpose of this convention, Mr. Allen, to 
set up or rather to consolidate into one organization all the various 
groups that were invited to the convention? 

Mr. Allen. I do not know that there was any specific purpose ex- 
pressed as to that. The purpose was to call all of the representatives 
who had really recognized representatives of anticommunistic work, 
ant i- Jewish communistic work into that convention. 

Mr. W t hitley. I see. And the purpose being to get them closer 
together so they could cooperate more effectively? 

Mr. Allen. That was the purpose. 

Mr. Whitley. That was the purpose. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you do not recall that the specific purpose of 
this convention was to unite all of the groups into one large organi- 
zation ? 

Mr. Allen. I do not know as to that ; I never heard that discussed. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was invited; do you know what groups of 
individuals were invited to attend that convention? 

Mr. Allen. Well that would be a long list and I do not know that 
I could state them off hand. Perhaps if you have a list 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). If you will call off as many as you 
can I will try to refresh your memory. 

Mr. Allen. I did not issue the invitations myself. Mrs. Fry issued 
the invitations and I really do not know who she sent them to. 

Mr. Whitley. Was the convention confined 

Mr. Allen (interposing). She issued the invitations and I do not 
know who she sent them to. 

Mr. Whitley. Was the convention confined to west coast indi- 
viduals and organizations or was it Nation-wide? 

Mr. Allen. Nation-wide. 

Mr. Whitley. Nation-wide? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you do not know to what specific groups or 
individuals her invitations were sent ? 

Mr. Allen. No; I do not. 

The Chairman. He said that before. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. Now what groups were represented at the 
convention, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I do not know as to groups. I recall some of 
the individuals, but just what the groups were 



3992 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). Would you name those and identify l 

them? ' 

Mr. Allen. Well, I recall — I recall Mr. Alexander was present. 

Mr. Whitley. Alexander? '' 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. He is leader of the Silver Shirts in Southern Cali- '"j"; 

f ornia at the present time ? : ] 
Mr. Allen. I understand so. • 

Mr. Whitley. He was there "^ 

The Chairman. You say you understand so. What do you mean 

by that ; do you know of your own knowledge ? | ' 
Mr. Allen. All I know is that it is stated, as a matter of common 

knowledge, that he is, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Whitley. Has he ever suggested it to you ? Jj 1, 

Mr. Allen. Oh, yes. »■ 
Mr. Whitley. Then you know he is ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. of the 

Mr. Whitley. You have every reason to believe he is? Mr. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. ^ 

Mr. Whitley. He was supposed to represent Mr. Pel lev's organiza- Mr, 

tion? Bund 

Mr. Allen. He was there, but in just what capacity Mr, 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). Who else was there, Mr. Allen? Mr- 
Mr. Allen. Well, I don't know that I can remember the names of Mr, 

many others. There was a Mr. Hudson Mr, 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Hudson of Omaha? Mr, 

Mr. Allen. Yes. Mr, 

Mr. Whitley. What is his first name ? Mr, 

Mr. Allen. I do not know. Mr, 

Mr. Whitley. Charles Hudson? Genua 

Mi*. Allen. I think so. Mr. 

Mr. Whitley. Charles B. Hudson? Mr. 

Mr. Allen. I don't know. Mr, 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Charles Hudson of Omaha ? identi 

Mr. Allen. Yes. Mr. 

Mr. Whitley. Is he affiliated with any organization? Mr, 

Mr. Allen. I think he has an organization ; yes. Mr, 

Mr. Whitley. Is it America Awake? Mr 

Mr. Allen. I think it is. Mr, 

Mr. Whitley. Does he put out any publication? Mr, 

Mr. Allen. Yes ; he puts out a publication. Mr. 

Mr. Whitley. Is his organization America in Danger? presen 

Mr. Allen. I am not sure the name of it. Mr, 

Mr. Whitley. But he does put out a publication ? Mr. 

Mr. Allen. Yes ; I have seen it. Mr 

Mr. Whitley. You have read his publication? Mr. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. A 
Mr. Whitley. Who else was present? 
Mr. Allen. Kullgren. 
Mr. Whitley. What is his first name? 
Mr. Allen. I think it is William. 
Mr. Whitley. And what is his organization? 
Mr. Allen. Well, he is editor of the Beacon Light. I don't know 

that he has an organization. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3993 

Mr. Whitley. And where is thai located? 

Mr. Allen. At Atescadero, Calif. 

Mr. AVhitley. That is William Kullgren? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. AVhitley. What other persons were present at this conven- 
tion, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. Well, there were some persons from Kansas City, but 
I don't recall their names; and some people from New York and 
from Philadelphia, but I don't recall their names. 

Mr. AVhitley. Mr. Edmondson? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. AVhitley. Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. AA t hitley. He wasn't there? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. AAthitley. AVas J. H. Peyton, of Beverley Hills, Calif., editor 
of the American Ranger, present? 

Mr. Allen. I think he was at one of the meetings; I think I saw 
him around. I think he was there. 

Mr. AA t hitley. AA'as any representative of the German-American 
Bund present? 

Mr. Allen. There were. 

Mr. AVhitley. There were? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. AVho was present from the bund? 

Mr. Allen. I think Mr. Risse. 

Mr. AAthitley. Anyone else? 

Mr. Allen. Mr. Schwinn. 

Mr. AA t hitley. He is the leader of the far-west division of the 
German- American Bund ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. AAthitley. Any other bund representative present? 

Mr. Allen. There were several of the men there that I have seen 
identified with the bund ; I don't know what their names were. 

Mr. AAthitley. AA r as Mr. James True present? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. AAthitley. At that meeting? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. AAthitley. And you said Mr. Deatherage was not there? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. AAthitley. AA r as any representative of the Ku Klux Klan 
present ? 

Mr. Allen. Not that I know of. 

Mr. AAthitley. AA'as Maj. Gen. George Van Horn Moseley present? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. AVhitley. AA'as Peter H. Stahrenberg, of the National Press 
Association and the National American, present? 

Mr. Allen. I don't know him. 

Mr. AAthitley. AA T as Frank AV. Clark, of Tacoma, Wash., present? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. AA t hitley. Head of the National Liberty Party present. 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. AA'as AV. D. Pelley present? 

Mr. Allen. No; he was not. 



3994 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Mr. Martin L. Thomas, head 
of the Christian American Crusade was present ? 

Mr. Thomas. I think counsel ought to also have the witness tell 
whether the individuals were identified with any organization. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. When I mention the head of an organiza- 
tion that is what I had reference to. 

Mr. Allen. I assumed that to be the purpose. To my knowledge 
none of them represented organizations, of those I have named who 
were present. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Was Maj. Frank Pease, editor of the Ameri- 
can Defender, Coral Gables, Fla., present. 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Was Gerald B. Winrod, of Wichita, Kans., present? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Are any representatives of his organization? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Was Mr. George W. Christians, of the Crusader 
White Shirts, present? 

Mr. Allen. I don't know who he is. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). You had no correspondence with him? 

Mr. Allen. I have received one or two letters but I don't know 
who the gentleman is. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall whether Edward J. Smythe, head of 
the Protestant War Veterans of the United States, was present? 

Mr. Allen. I don't know him. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall any others who were there, or any 
other organizations who were represented at the meeting? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall any others. There were a number of 
people there, a lot of people, but I did not attend all meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know the names and don't know all the 
organizations that were represented, or whether they represented or- 
ganizations or attended in their individual capacity? 

Mr. Allen. I have no idea as to that. 

Mr. Whitley. Now where was this convention held, Mr. Allen ? 

Mr. Allen. Held in the German- American House. 

Mr. Whitley. The German-American House? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In Los Angeles? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The headquarters of the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Approximately how many delegates were at the 
convention? 

Mr. Allen. I believe it was said there was some 200. 

Mr. Whitley. Something like 200? 

Mr. Allen. 200. 

Mr. Whitley. Attended this convention ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. What were they supposed to represent ? 

Mr. Whttlev. Thev were all supposed to represent organizations? 

Mr. Allen. No. I think thev came on invitations as individuals. 

Mr. Whitley. Some were there in their individual capacity and 
some to represent organizations? 

Mr. Aij.en. Well, I think most of them were there as individuals. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3995 

Mr. Whitley. Of course, as head of the Silver Shirts, Alexander 
would represent the organization? 

Mr. Allen. He represented his organization; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Allen. But outside of that I don't know of any of the others 
acting except as individuals. 

Mr. Whitley. Was Fritz Kuhn, head of the German-American 
Bund, present at that meeeting? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Was this convention called or the meeting held at 
the instance of the German-American Bund leaders? 

Mr. Allen. No ; we tried to get a meeting place, to find a hall down 
town. 

Mr. Whitley. But the bund worked with and cooperated actively 
in the convention and made plans for it and worked the plans out? 

Mr. Allen. No. We made it a strictly business proposition with 
the bund for the rental of the hall. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Allen. With the understanding that all swastikas would be 
removed. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Allen. And that there would be no uniforms seen and with no 
German, Nazi atmosphere. 

Mr. Whitley. It was just a business proposition, they had the hall 
and you rented the hall. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And they had no other interest in the convention? 

Mr. Allen. None whatever. 

Mr. Whitley. Except to let you use the hall. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. They did not assist in making plans at all to call the 
convention ? 

Mr. Allen. No ; not that I know of. 

Mr. Thomas. I would like to have the attorney develop some of the 
names of some of the organizations that applied for the hall in regard 
to this convention. 

Mr. Whitley. All right; I will do that. 

With reference to the statement you have just made, Mr. Allen, 
that the bund had nothing to do with the convention ; that you rented 
the hall from the bund on a strictly business-like basis, I want to read 
to you a statement from your letter dated August 24, 1938, Pasadena, 
Calif., addressed : 

"Dear James." Does that mean James True ? 

Mr. Allen. It might. 

Mr. Whitley. Signed Henry Allen. On page two of that letter 
it states as follows : 

Only last night Mrs. Fry told ine, "who are you in the cause, Mr. Allen. You 
are nothing." 

I am nothing, although without taking any undue credit, I might say with 
truth that the convention just held was the combined thought and originated 
by Mr. Arno Risse of the German-American Bund and myself, and Ave worked 
like dogs for its success. 

Mr. Allen. That is quite true. 

Mr. Whitley. That is not coupled with 



3996 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman (interposing). Yon identify that as true, that you 
did make that statement? 

Mr. Whitley. Will you look at this letter 

The Chairman (continuing). Did you make that statement? 

Mr. Allen. I may have made the statement. 

The Chairman. Is it true whether you made the statement in the 
letter or not? 

Mr. Allen. If it is in that letter I made it. 

The Chairman. Is it true whether it is in the letter ? 

Mr. Allen. I talked with Mr. Risse I think before that and we 
both thought it would be a good idea to have the convention. 

The Chairman. How does it happen that you now make the state- 
ment, or previously made the. statement to the effect that Mrs. Fry 
originated the convention ? 

Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry had originally talked with me about having 
a convention and I had a talk with Mr. Risse. 

The Chairman. All right, proceed. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, according to this statement, Mr. 
Allen 

The Chairman. Arno Risse. 

Mr. Whitley. I know Risse is assistant leader of the German- 
American Bund. 

The Chairman. How do you spell it? 

Mr. Whitley. A-r-n-o R-i-s-s-e. 

Mr. Allen. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. You now say that you and Mrs. Fry were primarily 
responsible ? 

Mr. Allen. We had a conversation and had talked over the matter 
of plans for carrying out the convention. 

The Chairman. Will you read that excerpt again so we can get 
clearly just what is in that letter? 

Mr. Whitley (reading) : 

Only last night Mrs. Fry told me "Who are you in the cause, Mr. Allen. 
You are nothing." 

I am nothing, although without taking any undue credit I might say with 
truth, that the convention just held was the combined thought and originated 
by Mr. Arno Risse, of the German-American Bund and myself, and we worked 
like dogs for its success. 

The Chairman. Is that the truth? 

Mr. Allen. That is true. 

The Chairman. How do you reconcile this statement with the pre- 
vious statement ? We are trying to get the truth. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. We are trying to find out what the facts were. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. How do you recognize this statement, which you 
have identified here, with your previous statements that Mrs. Fry 
originated the idea? 

Mr. Allen. She was the one who first talked to me about having a 
convention, before I discussed it with Mr. Risse. 

The Chairman. Well, that is a matter for the committee anyway. 

Mr. Whitley. Your statement in here, rather Mrs. Fry's statement, 
as quoted by you, that Mrs. Fry told me "Who are you in the cause, 
Mr. Allen?" 



. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3997 



What cause is she referring to; what was your understanding? 

Mr. Allen. My understanding was the common fight we were all 
making. 

Mr. Whitley. The common fight you were all making? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And if Mr. Arno Risse helped to make the plans for 
the convention and helped to make it a success, the interest of the 
German-American Bund was more than just a passing business in- 
terest in that they wanted to rent the hall for the convention? 

Mr. Allen. Only insofar as the German-American Bund was mak- 
ing the same fight that we were. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words there was a similarity of interest? 

Mr. Allen. I think there was quite a similarity of interest, 

Mr. Whitley. And that of course brought about a closer contact? 

Mr. Allen. Only insofar as Jewish communistic interests were con- 
cerned. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Allen. That is right. 

Mr. Thomas. I would like to get a point clear. 

The Chairman. Yes, Mr. Thomas. 

Mr. Thomas. Was this just a convention against communism or with 
regard to anti-Jewish Communists? 

Mr. Allen. It was an anti-Jewish communistic convention, for the 
purpose of 

The Chairman. He just asked you what it was for; you have an- 
n 'y swered. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What type of literature was sold and distributed at 
this convention, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. Oh. the usual literature on liberalism, the usual anti- 
communistic literature, and Mrs. Fry's publication. 

Mr. Whitley. Were there any publications from the World Sur- 
vey \ 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall seeing any there. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Edmondson's publication? 

Mr. Allen. Yes ; some of Mr. Edmondson's. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. James True's literature? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall having seen his there. 

Mr. Whitley. Was there any literature there from Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Either being sold or being distributed? 

Mr. Allen. It was being distributed. 

Mr. Whitley. Any literature from Mr. Winrod? Do you recall 
seeing any literature of his being sold or distributed? 

Mr. Allen. There was a great deal of literature, but I cannot say 
positively whose it was. 

The Chairman. In order to be fair with the witness, do you mean 
to say that you do not know whether the World Service was being 
distributed ? 

Mr. Allen. No; I could not say. 

The Chairman. Are you positive about that ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, personsonally I did not see any; there may have 
been some, of course. 



3998 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Are you positive you did not see some of the 
German-American Bund literature there? 

Mr. Allen. Oh, I thnk so. There was a good deal of literature 
there, but personally 

The Chairman. You have answered the question. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, who were speakers at this convention, the 
principle speakers, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. There was Dr. Rex Mitchell. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is Dr. Rex Mitchell ? 

Mr. Allen. He is a minister, a Baptist minister in Paso Robles, 
Calif. 

Mr. Whitley. And who were some of the other speakers? 

Mr. Allen. Mrs. Jewett. 

Mr. Whitley. Who else? 

Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry spoke. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was chairman of the convention ? 

Mr. Allen. There were various chairmen. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Allen. There was a different chairman at each session. 

The Chairman. Who was Mitchell? 

Mr. Allen. From Paso Robles. 

The Chairman. Paso Robles, will you spell that? 

Mr. Allen. P-a-s-o R-o-b-l-e-s. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you address the convention, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. I did. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the — who were some of the other speak- 
ers? You have named three or four. Did Mr. Schwinn speak? 

Mr. Allen. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Leader of the bund on the west coast ? 

Mr. Allen. I think so. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Mr. Arno Risse? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Both of them? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did any other representatives of the German-Ameri- 
can Bund address the convention? 

Mr. Allen. No ; I think there were only two. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall any of the other speakers? 

Mr. Allen. There was an Italian. I can't recall his name. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. There were representatives of the Italian 
group present? 

Mr. Allen. This man was a representative of an Italian group. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall the Italian group he represented? 

Mr. Allen. No; I don't remember the name. 

Mr. Whitley. Were there any representatives of a Russian group 
there ? 

Mr. Allen. I think there were several, yes; I think there were 
several. 

Mr. Whitley. Several representatives of Russian groups? 

Mr. Allen. Of white Russians. 

Mr. Whitley. Of various Russian groups? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I don't know how many groups they represented; 
there were several white Russians there. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3999 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall whether or not any representatives of 
the Mexican Gold Shirts were there? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether any representatives of the 
Mexican Gold Shirts were invited to attend the convention? 

Mr. Allen. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. There may have been? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I don't know that. 

Mr. Whitley. You said a few minutes ago that Mrs. Fry sent out 
the invitations. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you didn't know who all of them were ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, she ask me if I knew any of the Gold Shirts that 
she could send invitations to, and I told her that I did not. 

Mr. Whitley. That you did not know any ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes ; but none that she wanted to invite. 

Mr. Whitley. You know- quite a few of them ? 

Mr. Allen. I know two. 

Mr. Whitley. You know tw T o? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Getting back to the convention, you said there were 
various persons presided. Will you name some of the others who 
presided at the various sessions of the convention ? 

Mr. Allen. Mrs. Jewett presided; Mr. Hudson presided; I pre- 
sided. There were one or two others, but I don't recall who they were. 

We had an Indian speaker there. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the name of the Indian speaker? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall what it was. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't recall ? 

Mr. Allen. I have been trying to recall it, but I don't recall. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he a representative from an Indian organi- 
zation ? 

Mr. Allen. No; he was just someone who w T as present. 

Mr. Whitley. Just as an invitation ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he Chief New Moon ? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know Chief New Moon ? 

Mr. Allen. No ; never heard of him. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he an Indian who has frequently appeared at 
meetings or conventions of the German-American Bund ? 

Mr. Allen. Oh, no. 

Mr. Whitley. He was not ? 

Mr. Allen. I know who you refer to but it w T as not he. 

Mr. Whitley. It was not that party ? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the outcome or the result of this convention 
which lasted several days; did it work out a program? 

Mr. Allen. No; the outcome of the convention was it passed on 
certain resolutions. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. And those resolutions dealt with the same 
subjects that the individual organizations were interested in ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 



4000 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Were any plans worked out with reference to settting 
up one organization to include all these various groups? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. No such plan? 

Mr. Allen. No such plan. 

Mr. Whitley. This was called, however, an anticommunistic fed- 
eration ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And federations usually contemplates taking in a 
number of groups. 

Mr. Allen. That is true. 

Mr. Whitley. But there was no such activity contemplated ? 

Mr. Allen. No; that had been discussed and talked of but it was 
laid aside. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Will you name again for the record the exact 
date or dates on which the convention was held ? 

Mr. Allen. I think it was August 6, 7, and 8. 

Mr. Whitley. 1938? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That is your best recollection ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I judge. Mr. Allen, from your testimony that the 
German-American bund was extremely active in planning, organizing, 
and carrying out the convention; that it worked with you and Mrs. 
Fry — you used its hall, and two of its principal speakers on the west 
coast were speakers at the convention. 

Mr. Allen. Well, insofar as that is concerned, they cooperated with 
us the same as a number of other people did, and to that extent. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether the convention received any 
telegrams from any individuals or organizations who were not rep- 
resented at the convention ; do you recall ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, not when I was present. I wasn't present at all 
of the conventions, as I say. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Mr. Allen, when did you first become ac- 
quainted with Mr. George Deatherage, of St. Albans, W. Va., head of 
the Knights White Camellia and of the American Nationalist Con- 
federation? 

Mr. Allen. I believe it was in the fall, in October, I think it was, 
1936—1937. 

Mr. Whitley. 1937? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; 1937. 

Mr. Whitley. Had you prior to that time had any communication 
with Mr. Deatherage or exchanged letters with him? 

Mr. Allen. No; never. 

Mr. Whitley. You had no contacts with him at all ? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Where did you meet Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Allen. Just a moment. Before I met him I think I had 
received one or two letters just prior to having met him. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of that correspondence? 

Mr. Allen. Just nothing but short letters. I think he said that 
he had hoped to meet me when he came to the coast the next time. 

Mr. Whitley. And where was it that you met him in 1937 — 1937 
3'ou said? 



DN-AMERIGAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4001 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Where was that? 

The Chairman. A little louder. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. That was in Mrs. Fry's home. 

Mr. Whitley. The home of Mrs. Fry in Pasadena? 

Mr. Allen. In Glendale. 

Mr. Whitley. Where? 

Mr. Allen. Glendale. Calif. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. W r as he visiting in her home at that time? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I think he was there — I think he had just come 
there on business. 

Mr. Whitley. He was visiting on the west coast? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; he was visiting on the west coast; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know the purpose of his being out there; 
did he discuss that with you? 

Mr. Allen. No ; not with me. It was for the purpose of carrying 
on the work on the west coast that we were interested in. 

Mr. Whitley. Carrying on the work? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you meet him by appointment or just by acci- 
dent ? 

Mr. Allen. No ; I met him by appointment. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. Who made the appointment? 
/Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry. 

Mr. W t hitley. Mrs. Fry made the appointment for you to meet 
Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And at that time you had a discussion about carry- 
ing on the work on the west coast ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The work of the various individuals and organi- 
zations? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Who else was Deatherage in contact with on the 
west coast during his visit? 

Mr. Allen. He told me he had a talk with Mrs. Jewett. 

The Chairman. Just a minute. It is now 12 o'clock. There is 
one point, before we adjourn that I want to clarify in my own mind 
and in the minds, perhaps, of some of the members. 

There is one question, Mr. Allen; the purpose of this convention 
was to get all of these groups together to work and cooperate in 
your fight. 

Mr. Allen. Well, I would say yes. 

The Chairman. Would there be any other purpose ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, that would be naturally the purpose of the con- 
vention, that we wanted to work out the problem. 

The Chairman. In other words, constitute what was known as an 
anticommunistic federation ? 

Mr. Allen. That was the purpose. 

The Chairman. Was any leader discussed as qualified to lead the 
general movement ( 

Mr. Allen. No. 

The Chairman. W r ere you ever able to get together on any leader? 

Mr. Allen. No. A number of times those things were rather cas- 
ually discussed but not seriously. 






4002 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. You mean "seriously" that you could not get to- 
gether on a leader ? 

Mr. Allen. No ; there was no man seriously named as being avail- 
able for a leader. 

The Chairman. You mean there was no man who had the qualifi- 
cations for leadership ? 

Mr. Allen. That was the situation. 

The Chairman. I see. 

Mr. Whitley. Was General Moseley ever mentioned as a possible 
leader ? 

Mr. Allen. Never. 

Mr. Whitley. Never? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he was invited to attend this 
convention ? 

Mr. Allen. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Whitley. You couldn't say? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

The Chairman. All right, we will take a recess at this time. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, some of the members of the committee 
have some questions they would like to ask the witness. 

The Chairman. There will be ample opportunity for each member 
of the committee to do so. 

Mr. Thomas. When will the opportunity be given ? 

The Chairman. The witness will be on the stand for some time but 
full opportunity will be given every member of the committee. I 
was of the opinion that perhaps in the interest of orderly procedure 
it would be much better if counsel conclude his examination first. Of 
course, if questions relate to any matter which members of the com- 
mittee wish to interrupt with questions that is perfectly all right. 

Mr. Thomas. Might I ask a couple of questions in regard to the 
convention ? 

The Chairman. Yes; any question on the convention may be asked. 
Proceed. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Allen, you have used the phrase "Jewish com- 
munism" ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you mean to infer that all Communists are Jews? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. It is not clear to me why you use that phrase "Jewish 
communism"? 

Mr. Allen. Because we feel that we know and there is enough 
documentary evidence to show that the Jews are the originators, pro- 
moters, financiers of communism, and agitators of it. 

Mr. Thomas. Yes; but don't you know, also, that some of the lead- 
ers of communism in this country today are not Jews ? 

Mr. Allen. I know that, also. 

Mr. Thomas. Then don't you think it is very wrong to pass this 
reflection on the Jews by calling them, or referring to this phase 
"Jewish communism" ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. We know that the Jewish leaders are be- 
hind communism. 

The Chairman. You have answered the question. Now right at 
that point — had you finished, Mr. Thomas? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4003 

Mr. Thomas. Yes. 

The Chairman. You say that the Jews originated communism; 
you mean they started it in Russia? 

Mr. Allen. Oh, no; we go away, far back on that. 

The Chairman. I say do you mean they started it in Russia? 

Mr. Allen. We know the Jews control the situation in Russia; 
Ave know that, of course. 

The Chairman. That is probably the reason Germany and Russia 
are getting together right now? 

Mr. Allen. I don't know. [Laughter.] 

(The committee thereupon took a recess until 1:15 p. m.) 

AFTER RECESS 

The committee reconvened pursuant to the recess, Hon. Martin 
Dies (chairman) presiding. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order, please. If 
everyone will observe absolute quiet, we can hear the witness' testi- 
mony ; but when a paper is being torn or there is the slightest move- 
ment on the part of a number of people, it creates a general noise 
throughout this room, and the acoustics are very bad here, anyway. 
So I want to request everyone to be as quiet as possible. 

Mr. Allen, will you talk just as loudly and as distinctly as possible, 
please, sir? 

Mr. Allen. I will, sir. 

The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Whitley. 

TESTIMONY OF HENRY D. ALLEN— Resumed 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, just before adjournment, we were dis- 
cussing your meeting with George Deatherage. 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Of Saint Albans, W. Va., and I believe you stated 
Mr. Deatherage visited the west coast in the fall of 1938. 

Mr. Allen. No; 1937. 

-Mr. Whitley. 1937? 
/Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And an appointment was made for him to meet you, 
the appointment being made through Mrs. Fry? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. s 

Mr. Whitley. And you met him at her home? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the purpose of that meeting, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry asked me to meet with him in order to talk 
over something — some plans which her group seemed to have for 
the carrying on of the work in the Pacific coast area. 

Mr. Whitley. And were those plans discussed between you and 
Mrs. Fry and Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. On the occasion of that meeting? 

Mr. Allen. And Mr. Chapman. 

Mr. Whitley. And Mr. Chapman was present? \ 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Was anyone else present? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 



4004 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. What were the plans which were discussed? 

Mr. Allen. The plans, roughly, were for me to travel over the 
west coast and conduct especially the Associated Farmers, and to 
talk with them in regard to the campaign to be carried on at meet- 
ings for the purpose — for educational purposes, and for the purpose 
of identifying the real enemy, whom we considered the Jew, behind 
communism. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. At this meeting, you and Mrs. Fry and 
George Deatherage discussed that plan whereby you more or less 
were to go on a lecture tour of the west coast to present to the groups 
you addressed the problem with which these various individuals and 
organizations were concerning themselves? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And that group was to include, you say, in particu- 
lar, the Associated Farmers? 

Mr. Allen. Well, not in particular, but they were mentioned 
among the others. 

Mr. Whitley. Among the others who were to be contacted ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were to make the definite plans for that tour, 
and who were to finance it? 

Mr. Allen. The finances for that work were to come from Mr. 
Chapman. 

Mr. Whitley. From Mr. Chapman? 

Mr. Allen. In other words, I was instructed by Mr. Deatherage to 
receive my expense funds for that work from Mr. Chapman's hands. 

Mr. Whitley. Now what did Mr. Deatherage have to do, spe- 
cifically, with this plan which was more or less localized on the west 
coast ? Was this tour being sponsored by any group ? 

Mr. Allen. No other group than the one I mentioned. 

Mr. Whitley. Just the three? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I do not know whether any other personnel was 
behind that group; I have no knowledge of that meeting, excepting 
Mrs. Jewett's name was mentioned in that. 

Mr. Whitley. On Mr. Deatherage's instructions, Mr. Chapman was 
to pay your expenses ? 

Mr. Allen. He told me to receive my expenses from Mr. Chapman. 

Mr. Whitley. Was it apparent from the meeting there and the 
conversation that this was Mr. Deatherage's idea, and he was helping, 
at least, to promote it? 

Mr. Allen. No; I rather gathered that the plans at that time dis- 
cussed were the outcome of proceedings of a convention which was 
held in Kansas City the summer previous, I believe. 

Mr. Whitley. This was in the fall of 1937? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And the convention was held in Kansas City in 
August 1937, I believe ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Allen. I think so. I think it was; I was not present. 

Mr. Whitley. And you believe this plan which was made between 
you and Mrs. Fry and Mr. Deatherage was in keeping with certain 
plans which were made previously at this convention? 

Mr. Allen. I believe so. 



,spe- 
» west 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4005 

The Chaibman. Now, how dors tho witness know that? You are 

talking now about "belief." Let us get down to whether this witness 
is qualified to express any belief. 

Mr. Whitley. Is your expression there based on conversations 

Mr. Allen. Just on conversation and certain remarks that were 
made that referred to the Kansas City convention. 

Mr. Whitley. It is things that Mrs. Fry and Mr. Deatherage told 
you, or statements they made in your presence \ 

Mr. Ai.i kx. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That lead you to believe 

Mr. Allen. My belief is based on those remarks. 

Mr. Whitley. That this idea originated at the Kansas City con- 
vention ( 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Before we continue with your itinerary and the 
results of this lecture tour, tell us about that Kansas City convention. 

Mr. Allen. I was not present. 

Mr. "Whitley. You were not present? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know of your own knowledge, or from state- 
ments of those who were present, who sponsored that convention ? 

Mr. Allen. I could not say. 

Mr. Whitley. You could not say? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. But you do know there was such a convention ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Approximately a year prior to the convention held in 
Los Angeles ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Which was the following August? 

Mr. Allen. The following fall; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And did you, in accordance with the discussion which 
you have just described, undertake a lecture tour of the west coast? 

Mr. Allen. No. Those plans were somewhat laid aside, and I was 
requested to go to Fresno and to inquire there as to the possibilities of 
perfecting a closer relationship with the Associated Farmers in that 
area. 

Mr. Whitley. And whom did you contact in connection with that 
assignment ( 

Mr. Allen. Well, I believe I contacted the secretary of the farmers' 
association — the Associated Farmers. 

Mr. W t hitley. In that section ? 

Mr. Allen. In Fresno ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what the name of the secretary was? 

Mr. Allen. I could not say. 

Mr. Whitley. You could not say? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. W t hitley. What was the nature of that discussion? 

Mr. Allen. There was a very short conversation that had no im- 
portance at all. 

Mr. Whitley. No definite agreement was arrived at ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

94931 — 39 — vol. 6 20 



4006 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 






Mr. Whitley. Did you attempt, through him, to arrange some 
speaking engagements? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. On behalf of the Associated Farmers ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you attend any meetings or gatherings of the 
Associated Farmers? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir ; not at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever spoken before a gathering of Asso- 
ciated Farmers? 

Mr. Allen. No ; I never have spoken before any gatherings of the 
Associated Farmers, as such. 

Mr. Whitley. As such ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You mean you have spoken at gatherings where 
members were present ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever taken any active part or in any way 
actively participated in the affairs of the Associated Farmers? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir; not in their organization. 

Mr. Whitley. By way of lectures or conferences ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Or articles or materials that might be distributed? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. You understand, I have contacted individuals, 
but not in any sense as to organization work. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Voorhis. What kind of a response did you get from them, Mr. 
Allen? 

Mr. Allen. Well, our conversation was quite general. There was 
nothing definite as far as any real plans discussed with the persons 
with whom I talked. 

Mr. Voorhis. I mean were they interested in your program ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes ; the men I talked with were ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, what further contacts have you had with Mr. 
Deatherage, aside from the one meeting you have previously described? 

Mr. Allen. Well, after that, there were several meetings with him. 
Most of them occurred at Mrs. Fry's home. 

Mr. Whitley. That was while he was still on the coast ? 

Mr. Allen. While he was still on the coast. 

Mr. Whitley. How long was he out there, Mr. Allen ? 

Mr. Allen. I think possibly 2 weeks, or 3 weeks. 

Mr. Whitley. And you say 3^011 don't know in whose home he was 
visiting? 

Mr. Allen. He was stopping at one of the hotels. 

Mr. Whitely. At one of the hotels ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. He was not visiting? 

Mr. Allen. Oh, no. 

Mr. Whitley. The subsequent conferences you had while he was 
on the west coast — who was present at those? 

Mr. Allen. No one. 

Mr. Whitley. No one? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You talked to him privately? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 



Mr. 

The 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4007 

Mr. Whitley. And alone? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of those private conferences? 

Mr. Allen. We were discussing plans in detail for carrying on the 
work. 

Mr. Whitley. The work which you were doing and which he was 
doing' 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And which those other various individuals and 
groups were doing? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Was any definite decision arrived at as to plans? 

Mr. Allen. Never. 

Mr. AVhitley. As a result of those discussions? 

Mr. Allen. Never; except he requested me to make a tour of the 
Pacific coast — not particularly in the matter of making any addresses 
at all, but in order to make a survey — more of a survey of the attitude 
of mind which a number of the patriotic organizations might have, 
or individuals. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. By your reference to "patriotic organiza- 
tions," do you mean organizations like Mr. Frank Clark's, and Mr. 
dColdren's, and those organizations? 
Mr. Allen. No; we don't consider them hardly- 



- 







tfi 



'here n 
8 perso» 



with II 
rail 

:V : !l;l:- 



Iiviik Mr. Whitley (interposing). What do you mean by "patriotic or- 
ganizations," Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. I mean people who are seriously concerned in the 
Jt proper way of combatting Jewish communism. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, right at that point I think he ought 
to give us an example, or name one of the so-called patriotic organi- 
zations, right at this point. I am wondering whether he means the 
American Legion or the D. A. R., or what he means. 

Mr. Whitley. Just what organizations or groups do you include 
in that description, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. Possibly some of the women's groups. 

Mr. Whitley. Name some of them. 

The Chairman. Wait a minute. You can make that clear; you 
certainly know what organizations you had in mind if you were go- 
ing to make a tour over the country. 

Mr. Allen. There was no tour. 

The Chairman. You used the word "possibly" ; let us get down to 
more definite testimony. 

Mr. Allen. There was no tour, because that was all laid aside. 

The Chairman. Well, inspection trip, or whatever you call it. 

Mr. Allen. Survey. 

The Chairman. You certainly had in mind some organization; it 
would not be logical 

Mr. Allen. No; we had in mind no specific organization, except 
the Associated Farmers. That was the one we talked of most den- 
he « nitely in regard to educational organization work. 

The Chairman. And any other organization that was in sympathy ? 

Mr. Allen. That was in sympathy, or individuals. 

The Chairman. You had no other organizations in mind spe- 
cifically ? 

Mr. Allen. No; I did not know of any particularly. 



t 






4008 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman. I want to make this point ; I did not 
get it clear: The witness did not have in mind contacting real 
patriotic organizations like the American Legion or the Veterans of 
Foreign Wars, or the D. A. R., or anything like that, did he? 

Mr. Allen. Personally, I most certainly consider the Silver Shirts 
a very patriotic organization. 

Mr. Thomas. That is all. 

Mr. Whitley. And that description "patriotic organizations" would 
mean the Silver Shirts, and similar groups that have some interest in 
the program? 

Mr. Allen. Groups interested in combatting Jewish communism. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, who was to finance this trip, this tour, you 
were discussing with Mr. Deatherage? 

Mr. Allen. The finances were to come from Mr. Chapman; that 
is, I was requested to go to him whenever expense money was 
necessary. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Mr. Deatherage discuss with you what his own 
idea was as to how to accomplish the program, or the aims of the 
organizations he was connected with, namely, the Knights of the 
White Camellia, and the American Nationalist Confederation? 

Mr. Allen. No ; there was no definite program set out, as far as he 
was concerned. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, he did not discuss with you what his program 
was, or what his plans were, or how to go about accomplishing the 
objective of the organization he was affiliated with? 

Mr. Allen. Nothing except, if I recaU, he showed me a copy of 
their declaration of principles, or something of that sort. 

Mr. Whitley. I know, but his full time and energies were being 
devoted to the carrying out of that program, and did he discuss his 
plans as to how he should proceed and how the other organizations 
should proceed with him ? 

Mr. Allen. No ; nothing more except it was best to set up different 
groups — different cultural groups, religious groups, or educational 
groups. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he suggest violence might have to be restored 
to accomplish the program which he had in mind ? 

Mr. Allen. Not specifically; no, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Not specifically? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitney. Did he suggest that that might be necessary, or a 
last resort, even? 

Mr. Allen. Well, in any reference he made to that, the question 
of violence never came up unless the Communists — or that there was 
a major upheaval of subversive elements against the authorized 
authority. 

Mr. Whitley. From your conversations with Mr. Deatherage, 
would you consider that his ideas, insofar as the manner in which this 
Government should be conducted are concerned, are Fascist? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Is he in accord with the present system of govern- 
ment ? 

Mr. Allen. I have never heard Mr. Deatherage make any remark, 
except he hoped, and would always try to bring us back to our Amer- 
ican form of government. 



x 









UN-AMERK'.W PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4009 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mi-. Allen. He \\as very emphatic about that. 

Mr. Whitley, But as far as you know, he was not trying to set up 
an organization that would at least be semimilitary? 

Mr. Allen. Oh; no, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. He was not ( 

Mr. Allen. No. sir; nothing except in case of a major upheaval. 

The Chairman. Right there, at that point, suppose you develop 
what he meant by "in case of a major upheaval." Do you mean he 
was going to get ready, now — to have an organization ready for that 
event ? 

Mr. Allen. Mr. Deatherage's plan, as I understood it, was to have 
arrangements made with these different groups so that if there is a 
communistic outbreak in any given area, or over the country at large, 
or on the Pacific Coast, that that organization as set up could function 
under the organized authority of the State, under either military 
authority or otherwise. In other words, the organization Mr. Death- 
- oft erage talked about was to be turned over and to be trained to come 
iofti under the domination of the recognized authorities. 

The Chairman. You were to get it all ready, to train them and get 
them all ready, so that if this outbreak occurred you would have an 
organization that could go at once into the field? 

Mr. Allen. No ; to turn them over to the Reserve Officers' Associa- 
tion, or the recognized authority. 

The Chairman. I see. But they would be ready at the outbreak, 
-o that when they were turned over 

Mr. Alien. They would be useful. 

The Chairman. They would be trained? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, Mr. Deatherage's program was to 
build up an organization which was both a propaganda organization 
md a semimilitary organization, or a propaganda organization that 
:ould be converted into a military organization over night; w T as that 
t? 

Mr. Allen. We did not attempt any propaganda organization. 
Our work was entirely educational, based upon facts. 

Mr. Whitley. It is a question there entirely of the interpretation of 
he activities? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 
rT or J Mr. Whitley. But you did not get the impression that Mr. Death- 
rage was advocating the use of force or violence, or advocating the 

tting up of a military organization? 

Mr. Allen. I never had that impression ; no, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Was it during this series of conferences you had 
with Mr. Deatherage on the west coast in the fall of 1937 that he 
,i ie:; :urned over to you this chari which he had prepared? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. W t hitley. This chart, Mr. Allen [exhibiting], a very elabo- 
rately prepared chart, provides for an elaborate set-up. At the top 
portion it is captioned "propaganda group." 

Mr. Allen. Propaganda group; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. A moment ago you objected to my use of that term, 
md you said ""educational." He calls it "propaganda group," and he 
■alls for about 45 different sections to be included in that group; the 



arasl 

Mflgffi 

birig tl 

copy 
re \k 









4010 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

set-up, briefly, at the head being, at the top "American Nationalist 
Confederation" ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the organization Mr. Deatherage is the 
head of? 

Mr. Allen. I believe so. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the organization he was elected to head; 
that was set up at the Kansas City convention, and he was elected 
the head of it at that time? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I was not present. 

Mr. Whitley. You were not present ? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. And you have never heard Mr. Deatherage describe 
that organization? 

Mr. Ajllen. Oh, yes; I have. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, what was his description of it? 

Mr. Allen. He described it briefly and passed me the declaration 
of principles of it. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Did he tell you it was organized at the Kan- 
sas City convention? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; he told me so. 

Mr. Whitley. Then, in spite of the fact you have his word for it r 
that that is where it was organized 

Mr. Allen. Oh, yes; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he tell you he was elected the head of that or- 
ganization at the Kansas City convention? 

Mr. Allen. I assume he was. I don't know that he ever told me, 
but I assume he was. 

Mr. Whitley. I do not want any assumptions. If he did not tell 
you that, or you were not present, we will strike that response. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, did he tell you what the purposes and aims 
of that confederation were? 

Mr. Allen. Not any more than in a few words — combatting any 
Communist upheaval. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he tell you that organization was set up at the 
Kansas City convention to coordinate and bring together all of the 
various groups into this one confederation, in order that their work 
mierht be more oifective? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I think there was some conversation on that ; 
yes. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And this, then [exhibiting] is the chart which he 
drew up as the head of the American Nationalist Confederation and 
which represented his idea as to how this confederation of all those 
groups should function? 

Mr. Allen. I don't know that he drew the chart. 

Mr. Whitley. He gave it to you? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; he gave it to me. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he tell you who drew it ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he indicate he did it? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. He described it to you ; did he tell you this was the 
plan to be used ? 



nail 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4011 

Mr. Allen. Well, he laid it on the table and told me to observe 
the different groups I should try to organize. 

Mr. Whitley. He explained it to you ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And his explanation indicated that it represented 
the plan of the confederation? 

Mr. Allen. As I understood it; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The top portion of this, or right at the head of 
this chart is "American Nationalist Confederation." Immediately 
under that is the ''National Leader.*' He has space there to fill in 
the name. Then he has, under that ''Chief of staff"; under that he 
has "Statf headquarters," and as adjacent or corollary portions of 
those latter two, he has "Two adjutants to take charge," to be chief 
of staff and to be in charge of staff headquarters. 

Then coming on down from that top group, he has set up these 
various sections: "Party program," "Personnel director," "Civic edu- 
cation," "Youth movement," "Corps area leaders" — these all still 
being under the general heading of "Propaganda group" or organi- 
zation. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. One section there is scratched and I cannot read it, 
Mr. Chairman — section No. 9. No. 10 is "Substitute officers"; an- 
other section, "Religious groups"; another section, "Women's groups." 
Then, under that again, "Corps area leaders," he has "Information 
bureau." And he proposed to set up as a part of this organization 
a "Geneological bureau." Did he explain what the purpose of the 
geneological bureau was, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. There was no explanation made by him, as I remember, 
of any of those groups there, no more than that was the general 
plan which we were to follow in the general work of organizing. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. The chart is more or less self-explanatory? 

Mr. Allen. I think so. 

The Chairman. Y^ou discussed that geneological group with him, 
did you % You knew what that meant, did you not ? 

Mr. Allen. I don't think I had to, because I knew we would admit 
no Jews — if that is what you mean. 

The Chairman. That was to determine who was Aryan and who 
was not ? 

Mr. Allen. I don't talk much about "Aryan." 

Mr. Whitley. Now, other groups that were to be set up to func- 
tion as a part of this plan were "Fraternal orders," "Foreign lan- 
guage groups," "Financial," "Universities and schools." "Cultural 
groups," "Records and archives." Another section is the "Conven- 
tions; meetings." Each of these spaces has a blank there to fill in 
the person who was to be selected to take charge of that particular 
activity of the confederation? 

"Labor unions," "Censorship bureau." Did he make any com- 
ment on the extent to which censorship would be exercised ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he express approval of censorship ? 

Mr. Allen. He did not make any remarks about it that I can recall. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your idea as to what this "censorship bu- 
reau" means ? 

Mr. Allen. I certainly could not say as to that. 



4012 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

» 

Mr. Whitley. I know you could not say what lie thinks about it, 
but what would you think a censorship bureau in such a set-up as 
this would be? 

Mr. Allen. Personally, I would feel I would not be at all con- 
cerned with anything about censorship. That is not in my line. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Then, continuing with the other sections to 
be organized in this confederation, there is "press propaganda," or, 
if you prefer, "press education"; "'direct-mail propaganda"; "patri- 
otic societies"; "governmental activities"; "radio broadcasts." An- 
other section is "counter propaganda"; "industrial associations"; 
"party organization"; "speakers' bureau." Another section is "plan- 
ning section"; another, "veterans' groups"; another, "intelligence 
bureau." 

Now, those are the various sections to be organized under the top 
part of this map. which is indicated or called "propaganda group." 

Leading down from that set-up, that organization, into the lower 
part of the picture, it is captioned, "military-defense section," and 
there he has set up "first corps area"; "second corps area"; "third 
corps area," and so forth — nine corps areas in all. And in other 
sections under that there is "staff divisions": "man groups"; "recruit- 
ing division"; "judicial division." Did he indicate what he contem- 
plated by way of setting up a judicial division? 

Mr. Allen. No. He made no comments on the different things, as 
far as I remember. 

Mr. Whitley. Then there is "administration division": "officers' 
training school"; "medical corps": "educational division": "intelli- 
gence section" — and those are all connected with groups or sections 
which indicate man groups. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Which means manpower. That set-up, and still as 
part of the military set-up, leads down into a section which indicates 
"brigades"; "regiments": and then into "battalions" in the manner 
in which they were to be set up. 

Mr. Thomas. Right along that line. I would like to ask a ques- 
tion. I would like to ask the witness whether the witness and Mr. 
Deatherage, in their discussion, really took this plan seriously. 

Mr. Allen. The plan, as far as I am concerned — I am referring 
now to this chart here — laid in my drawer, and I do not think I ever 
opened it after Mr. Deatherage went away, because I did not feel 
there was any occasion for opening it. I recalled that was more or 
less the organization, or type of organization, that Mr. Deatherage 
talked about: but I had no further occasion to use it. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, did you think that this kind of organization 
could be set up? 

Mr. Allen. Well, as to that, I presume it could be: I presume it Mr. 
could be. 

Mr. Thomas. Would you advocate its being set up? 

Mr. Allen. I would advocate anything like that to combat a sim- 
ilar one which Jewish Communists have already in this country. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you think the Jewish Communists have an or- 
ganization like this? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I am certain they do. 

Mr. Thomas. Leaving out the Communists, do you think the Jew- 
ish people have anything like thai \ 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4013 

Mr. Allen. As to the Jewish people — I don't know ns to that. I am 
only talking now about the "reds" and the people who follow thai 
philosophy. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, did Mr. Deatherage indicate in your con- 
versations with him — and von have stated, I believe, you had several 
over the period of a week or 10 days while he was on the west coast? 

Mr. Allen. While he was there; yes, sir. 

Mr. YVhitlky. That this was the plan he proposed to carry out? 

Mr. Allen. lie indicated the chart as being a proper one by which 
the organization should be formed. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he discuss with you the prospective leaders of 
those various groups of the confederation? 

Mr. Allen. No ; he never talked about that. 

Mr. Whitley. He did not discuss that at all ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. He did not ask you to consult him about selecting 
some of the leaders? 

Mr. Allen. Nothing of that sort. 

The Chairman. I think you have it pretty well established that this 
was Mr. Deatherage's plan, and he has gone on record to say he 
favored a similar plan to combat Jewish communism. I think that is 
pretty well established. 

Mr. Allen. That is correct. 

The Chairman. Proceed. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, Mr. Allen, who is Mrs. Fry? How long has 
she been on the west coast ? 

Mr. Allen. We first knew of Mrs. Fry in the fall of 1936 from this 
paper, this Christian Free Press, its first issue, in October of that year. 
No one seemed to know where she came from ; but the message that it 
carried was one we were rather sympathetic with and, when the first 
copy of it was handed to me, I made it my business to call at the office 
in the Chamber of Commerce Building — she had an office in the Cham- 
ber of Commerce Building in Los Angeles at that time — and I found 
the door locked and a little notice posted on the door that no one could 
be seen except by appointment, and a telephone number was given. 
Then I called up by telephone and an appointment was arranged for 
the next day, and at that time I met her for possibly 20 minutes and 
talked. I never saw her again until a year afterward. She suffered 
an automobile accident, I believe, that fall, and the following year, in 
1937, or rather the following summer of 1937, I received a letter 
signed by Mrs. Maxey asking me if I would call at Mrs. Fry's residence. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is Mrs. Maxey ? 

Mr. Allen. Mrs. Maxey is Mrs. Fry's secretary, or was at that 
time. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, I think you have already described, this 
morning, your own contacts with her and meetings? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; I described that. 

Mr. Whitley. Particularly what I want to find out is, how long 
has she been on the west coast — this again of your knowledge — and 
how long she has been active in this work ? 

Mr. Allen. As far as I know, her being on the west coast only dates 
from about that time. 

Mr. Whitley. Have vou heard her state how long she has been 
there? 



4014 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. She has stated to a number of us at different times that 
she was born in San Francisco, of Russian parentage; that her parents 
died and that she was adopted by the Ralston family. 

Mr. Whitley. What family was that? 

Mr. Allen. The Ralston family, of San Francisco. I have tried 
to check that, but I have never met with much success. In fact, 
Mrs. Fry gave her age as being 62.in 1938, and I discovered that 
Mr. Ralston committed suicide some 2 years before she claimed to 
have been adopted by him. So our investigation came to an end. 

The Chairman. What was the purpose in conducting the investiga- 
tion? You were working with her. 

Mr. Allen. It was this : I was working with her, but a great 
many rumors had gone around about Mrs. Fry, all more or less 
tending to show 

The Chairman (interposing). Wait a minute; if it was nothing 
but rumors, let us not go into rumors. You had certain doubts that 
caused you to make the investigation? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. That caused me to make the investigation. 
I had certain doubts as to who she really was. 

The Chairman. Have you developed who she was? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Who is Conrad Chapman? You have stated that 
you were associated with him. 

Mr. Allen. I know nothing in the world about him, except that 
he is an Englishman. He lives in England at the present time, I be- 
lieve, and, so far as I know, he was there carrying on this work with 
Mrs. Fry. 

The Chairman. Was he associated with her in this work there ? 

Mr. Allen. From what was told me, the association began back 
in England, when she was living in England. 

Mr. Thomas. Is it your understanding that funds were being sup- 
plied from England? 

Mr. Whitley. He said the funds came through Chapman. 
Whether they were supplied from there, or came from some other 
source, I believe he testified he did not know. 

Mr. Allen. That is correct. He was the man who paid the money. 
Whether any of it came from there, I do not know. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you receive any funds direct from Mrs. Fry? 

Mr. Allen. Did I? 

Mr. Thomas. Yes; did you receive funds direct from her? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir; I do not recall that I ever received money 
from Mrs. Fry for any purpose whatsoever. 

The Chairman. Did Mr. Chapman ever give you any money? 
I Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; he paid me expense money. 

Mr. Thomas. I would like to have you bring out a little more 
about Mrs. Fry — how long she spent in England, and when did she 
leave there, and how long she has been in the United States. I think 
we should find out as much as possible about Mrs. Fry. 

Mr. Whitley. He testified that he made an investigation, and 
stated that he did not accomplish anything in the way of checking 
up on her background. Mr. Allen, what did she tell you, or what 
statements did she make in your presence, that would indicate her 
previous connection ? During the period of time that she was closely 
associated with you in these activities, did she make any statement 
that would be enlightening as to her past connections or activities? 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4915 



'"■nils 



and 



Mr. Allen. She told me that she was formerly the owner of the 
Free Press — not the Christian Free Press, of London, but it was some- 
thing like the Christian Free Press. She carried on communications 
: in London with many other people there, but I do not recall any but 
Mr. Chapman. She then said a little about being in Russia; that her 
husband had been taken from her there; that he was a Russian general. 
Then she told some rather interesting things about living in Russia. 
Her two sons, I believe, she said were born at Riga. She said she was 
obliged to leave the country at the time of the upset. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you mean the Russian revolution? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; the Russian revolution. She told me also that 
her husband was killed in the Russian revolution. Her entire story of 
her life to me or anybody else has been very sketchy. I have never 
been able to get a coherent, continuous story of it. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you encourage her to give you the story ? 

Mr. Allen. I tried to get all the information I could, because I 
"believed it was necessary, with so much doubts being felt, to get all 
information I possibly could. 

The Chairman. In other words, the people associated with her 
doubted her representations of loyalty and sincerity in combating 
communism ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did she tell you how she happened to get funds out 
of Russia ? Most of them who have come here from that country are 
as poor as church mice. 

Mr. Allen. She said they were actually broke. \ 

Mr. Whitley. Did you receive funds from Mr. Chapman ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Were those funds paid to you in cash or by check ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir ; by check. No, sir ; pardon me ; it was generally 
in cash, but at the time I came to Washington he paid the money by 
■check. I think he gave me two checks, k^-"" 

Mr. Whitley. Signed by himself ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know the name of the bank ? 

Mr. Allen. It was a Glendale bank. I think it was the First 
National. 

Mr. Voorhis. Did you have any indication from Mrs. Fry as to 
where any of the money came from ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. Where do you think the funds came from ? 

Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry told me that a large part of the money came 
from Mrs. Jewett. 

Mr. Voorhis. From Pasadena? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. She said it came from her ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. I asked no more questions about that. 

Mr. Voorhis. What reason was there for going through Chapman 
with it? 

Mr. Allen. Only this, that they would have some sort of a fund 
from contributors, and Mrs. Jewett was one of the contributors to that 
fund. Mrs. Fry told me that they made contributions to the fund, and 
that he had been appointed to make disbursements from it. 

Mr. Voorhis. Do you know where Mr. Chapman is now? 






4016 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. The last address I had from him was Dover. 

Mr. Voorhis. When did he go ? 

Mr. Allen. He left a year ago. 

Mr. Voorhis. Why did he leave? 

Mr. Allen. He left suddenly. I have no knowledge of why he left. 

Mr. Voorhis. Mrs. Fry did not leave ? 

Mr. Allen. We are trying to find out about that now. 

Mr. Voorhis. Do you know where she is now ? 

Mr. Allen. I have no knowledge where she is at the present time. 

Mr. Voorhis. Where is Arno Risse. 

Mr. Allen. When I left Los Angeles he was there. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Mrs. Fry, in connection with her previous ac- 
tivities of a similar nature in London, ever mention whether she was 
in any way associated with Sir Oswald Moseley? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir ; she never told me anything with regard to any 
such relations. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know the type of organization that Sir 
Oswald Moseley started ? 

Mr. Allen. Only from what I read in the papers. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have any correspondence with him or any 
letters from him ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir ; I got one copy of the Fascist. 

Mr. Whitley. They get out a publication known as the Fascist? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. He is supposed to be the head of a Fascist organi- 
zation ? 

Mr. Allen. That is what I am told. That is what I read. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Mrs. Fry mention her having been associated 
with Beamish, of South Africa? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. I am trying to get this straight now, because 
I want to give the story as nearly as possible in correct form. Mrs. 
Fry — let me, if I may, begin at the time of his visit here. I think we 
will have to approach it that way. Mr. Beamish, as you know, came, 
here in the winter of 1937. At that time I was carrying on a certain 
amount of activity in the San Joaquin Valley. When I was at Fresno 
I received a telegram from somebody in New York — whom, I do not 
kp.ow— asking me if I would meet Captain Beamish; that he was 
coming to Los Angeles. 

Mr. Whitley. What are his initials? 

Mr. Allen. Henry Hamilton Beamish. I did know particularly 
who Mr. Beamish was. When I returned to Fresno on Saturday I 
showed the telegram that I had received to Mrs. Fry, and told her that 
I thought it would be a good idea for her to meet Captain Beamish. 

Mr. Whitley. Had you heard of him previously? 

Mr. Allen. I knew something about him, but we had not corre- 
sponded. 

Mr. Whitley. You saw some of his literature? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir; I knew him by name, from some pamphlets he 
had written. 

Mi". Whitley. What was the name of his organization? 

Mr. Allen. He was the originator of the Britons. When I showed 
the telegram to Mrs. Fry and to Mr. Chapman, they became very 
noticeably indignant. They told me I should by no means meet or 
have anything whatsoever to do with Beamish. I was very much 



/ 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4Q17 









amazed at this, because I supposed that he was one man that everybody 
highly respected. I did not know how to account for it. However, 
while' I did not meet Captain Beamish at the boat when he came. I 
arranged to have other people meet him; but later I made it a point to 
contait him in Los Angeles. In my conversation with him, he said, 
"Now. Mr. Allen, I am very anxious to meet Mrs. Fry." He said that 
it was very imperative that he should meet her and she meet him, and 
asked would I arrange it. I again called on Mrs. Fry herself that 
afternoon and told her of the conversation. She said, "By no means 
will I meet Captain Beamish." 

Mr. Whitley. Did she state any reason for not wanting to meet him? 

Mr. Allen. She said later that she had had some estrangement from 
him in London, and that he was just a rotter, and that she would have 
nothing to do with him. Going back to Captain Beamish again, the 
next day or so, I told him just exactly what she said. He said, "Well, 
I expected she would say that; but I still insist that I must see Mrs. 
wry in some way." He told her, or telephoned while I was with him, 
and asked her for permission to call, which she refused. Captain 
Beamish said to me, "There is some reason why she does not dare to see 
me. and nobody knows better than she what this reason is." I did not 
feel that it was proper to question Captain Beamish any further. 

Mr. Whitley. And he did not volunteer anything? 

Mr. Allen. He volunteered nothing. 

Mr. Whitley. And subsequent to your conversation with him he 



site 
4 to 






"'Pldid not explain why she did not want to meet him? 
Mr. Allen. No, sir. 



Iraki?' 
iff, cam 

t 
I 



I tried as courteously as I could to get infor- 
i niation as to the situation, but I got nothing from either her or him. 

The Chairman. It occurs to the Chair that some of these things are 
absolutely immaterial. Of course, they may lead to something later. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, did you during the winter of 1938 make a 
trip east in the performance of a mission for Mrs. Fry, and did you 
carry out certain instructions that you received from her? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That was what month, or what date ? 

Mr. Allen. That was in January, I believe, in 1938. 

Mr. Whitley. January 1938? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the purpose of the trip, or the primary 
purpose of the trip? 

Mr. Allen. The primary purpose of the trip, according to Mr. 
unlay II Chapman's instructions, was for the purpose of picketing the May- 
liertliilflower Hotel with Arabs upon the occasion of the Palestine Convention, 
ieamiij Mr. Whitley. Those were Mr. Chapman's instructions? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he furnish the finances for that trip ? 

Mr. Allen. He paid the expenses of the trip. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you accomplish that mission? 

Mr. Allen. I did. 

Mr. Whitley. We will get further details about that in a few min- 
utes. Did you go to any other places and make certain other contacts 
at that time in accordance with instructions from Mr. Chapman ? 

Mr. Allen. When I left Los Angeles I was given a letter by Mrs. 
Fry, directed to the Rumanian consulate, and I was told how to deliver \ 
the letter. At that time the Government was changing. I was told 



j 






4018 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

that if the Fortescue regime was still holding office here I was not to 
deliver the letter but mail it, but that if the new consul had arrived 
and was in possession I was then to deliver the letter to the consul. 

Mr. Whitley. To the consul or the Ambassador ? 

Mr. Allen. At the Embassy. 

Mr. Whitley. The letter was for the Rumanian Ambassador? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Your instructions, which you have just related, were 
to deliver it at the Embassy and not the consulate ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you carry out the instrutcions ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you contact the Rumanian Embassy? 

Mr. Allen. I did not contact anybody. I learned before I came 
that the old regime was still there; so I mailed the letter as directed. 

Mr. Whitley. Where was the letter addressed ? 

Mr. Allen. It was addressed to Budapest. 

Mr. Whitley. To Budapest, Rumania? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. To whom was it addressed ? 

Mr. Allen. I do not recall. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what were the contents of the letter? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir ; it was a sealed letter. 

Mr. Whitley. Did she indicate why she wanted you to make con- 
tact with the Rumanian Embassy ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir ; she gave no reason. 

Mr. Whitley. She did not tell you what the reason was? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you contact any other embassies on the instruc- 
tion of Mrs. Fry while you were in Washington ? 

Mr. Allen. I called at the Italian Embassy. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that upon instruction from Mrs. Fry? 

Mr. Allen. She suggested that I call there. 

Mr. Whitley. Did she suggest that you call on the Italian Em- 
bassy ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, she said — she wrote me to just talk over with 
them in regard to the general situation in Italy. 

Mr. Whitley. In Italy? 

Mr. Allen. In Italy. 

Mr. Whitley. By way of getting some information; did she give 
you instructions as to what ? 

Mr. Allen. No; she wanted to know how things were going in 
Italy. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Did you call on the Italian Embassy? 

Mr. Allen. I called on them. 

Mr. Whitley. Whom did you talk with ? 

Mr. Allen. I didn't talk with the Ambassador because he was away, 
but I talked with a Mr. Casnelli or some such name. 

Mr. Whitley. What was his position in the Embassy ? 

Mr. Allen. I think he was — I don't know what his official title was. 
I understood he had some title but I can't recall what it was. 

Mr. Whitley. He was an official in the Embassy ? 

Mr. Allen. He was. 



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UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4019 









Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of that conversation you had 
with him '( 

Mr. Allen. Well, we only talked generally for about 5 minutes; I 
don't recall talking any longer. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Allen. And my purpose of coming there was to talk with the 
Ambassador and since he wasn't there I didn't see anything to be 
gained by talking with him. 

Mr. Whiley. Did you advise the office of the Italian Embassy what 
your work was and what had been done on the west coast? 

Mr. Allen. No ; I did not discuss that except that in a general way i 
I was interested in the work. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you tell him that the various individuals in or- 
ganizations with which you were identified there had been cooperating 
with the Italian group ? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not tell him that ? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. AVhitley. Did 3^011 visit any other offices or representatives of 
foreign governments while you were in Washington? 

The Chairman. Before you get away from that subject: You say 
you went to the office of the Italian Embassy in Washington and you 
met an official and told him that you were with an organization to 
combat Jewish communism? 

Mr. Allen. That was my statement. 

The Chairman. Did he congratulate you? 

Mr. Allen. No; he didn't congratulate me. He wanted to know 
how the work was progressing. 

The Chairman. And you told him you were getting along fine ? 

Mr. Allen. No; I didn't make any remark at all. I told liim we 
were going ahead but he didn't make any further remark on that. 

The Chairman. Did you discuss the question of finances, that you 
were having a hard time getting enough money ? 
Em- Mr. Allen. No ; I didn't make any reference to that at all. 

The Chairman. Did he express an interest in your work? 

Mr. Allen. Not particularly. He said that he hoped that we would 
meet with success in the work that we were doing. 

Mr. Thomas. That should be developed further. An officer in the 
Italian Embassy hoped that you would succeed in the work that you 
five were doing. Did he state what me meant by that. 

Mr. Allen. Well, I could not say what he had in mind. 

Mr. Thomas. What work were you referring to ? 

Mr. Allen. He was referring to the work we were carrying on 
combatting Jewish communism in America. 

Mr. Thomas. And he hoped that you would succeed? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. And that he would take it up with the Italian Gov- 
ernment 

Mr. Allen (interposing). Well, I don't know as to that. 

Mr. Voorhis. Do I understand, Mr. Allen, that Mrs. Fry asked 
you to go to the embassies of foreign governments to get a report on / 
this work? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; she did. 



4020 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Voorhis. Why did you suppose she wanted you to do that? 

Mr. Allen. I have no idea as to that, but I went because I was 
interested in knowing what the Embassy would have to say. 

Mr. Voorhis. Did you have confidence in Mrs. Fry at that time? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Voorhis. You received a salary and expenses 

Mr. Allen. I received no pay for what I was doing. 

Mr. Voorhis. Expenses? 

The Chairman. Just expenses? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. I see. 

The Chairman. To cover your living expenses in Washington? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Thomas. But you were getting your expenses for coming here 
to call on the embassies ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, did you visit any other representatives 
of foreign governments on that trip to Washington in January 1939 
that you 

Mr. Allen (interposing). I don't recall that I did. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't recall that you did ? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall that I did;' I may have, but if I did they 
were not important at all and that is why I don't remember. 

Mr. Whitley. On that same trip to Washington, after you left 
Washington, did you visit Atlanta, Ga. ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that also on the instructions from Mrs. Fry? 

Mr. Allen. On the explicit instructions. 

The Chairman. Before you get away from Washington I would 
like to ask a question further to clear up in my mind what you did at 
the Italian Embassy. Did you ask to see the Ambassador? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. Where did they tell you he was gone? 

Mr. Allen. He was in Europe. 

The Chairman. He was in Europe? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you say that you wanted to see the person who 
was in charge while he was away ? 

Mr. Allen. I asked who was in charge. 

The Chairman. And you were referred to this man Cosmelli? 

Mr. Allen. To Mr. Cosmelli. 

The Chairman. He was the man you were told was in charge of 
the Embassy and authorized to act for the Ambassador during his 
absence ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I don't think there was a statement as to that, 
but someone suggested that I see Mr. Cosmelli; I don't think they 
said he was in charge in the absence of the Ambassador; I don't 
think there was any statement as to that. 

The Chairman. Did you tell them what you wanted to report 
to them about? 

Mr. Allen. No; I didn't want to report anything particularly. 

The Chairman. You state Mrs. Fry had asked you to see the 
Ambassador ? 



UN-AMEKICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4021 

Mr. Allen. No; I just called on them; just called to make the 
acquaintance and ask how the work was going on in Italy. 

The Chairman. The work against Jewish communism in Italy? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. That was what you were interested in? 

Mr. Allen. That was what I was interested in. 

The Chairman. And he expressed an interest in the same thing? 

Mr. Allen. He said he hoped us success. 

The Chairman. Did he tell you ail about what was going on in 
Italy against Jewish communism? 

Mr. Allen. Well, he said very satisfactorily; that was all. 

The Chairman. And you reported that it was very satisfactory 
on the west coast? 

Mr. Allen. That is about all. The conversation lasted about 5 
minutes ; I don't think any longer. 

The Chairman. Was there any further contacts with him after 
you left? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

The Chairman. You never saw him before you went back? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

The Chairman. Did 3^011 write him a letter after you saw him 
then? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

The Chairman. After you went back home did not you write 
him and tell him how very happy you were to have had an occasion 
to meet and enjoy the conversation? 

Mr. Allen. I may have but I don't recall I wrote to him, that 
I ever wrote him. 

The Chairman. Well, you would not say that you did not write 
a letter, would you ? 

Mr. Allen. I have written a great many letters and I don't 
attempt to remember them all. 

The Chairman. And you may have written him? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall if I ever wrote him. 

The Chairman. Did he ever write Mrs. Fry? 

Mr. Allen. That I don't know. 

The Chairman. Did Mrs. Fry tell you she had written to him? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

The Chairman. Did you report to Mrs. Fry you had gone to 
the Embassy? 

Mr. Allen. I reported that I had called ; yes. 

The Chairman. Did you tell Mrs. Fry what was said? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. What did she say 

Mr. Allen (interposing). As I remember, I wrote her. 

The Chairman. You wrote Mrs. Fry? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. And told her what took place? ) 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. And she expressed her satisfaction to you. 

Did you know what was in her letter to the Rumanian Ambas- 
sador ? 

Mr. Allen. No ; I had no knowledge of what was in that. 

The Chairman. It was sealed? 

94931—39 — vol. 6 21 



4022 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. It was a sealed letter. 

The Chairman. A sealed letter. 

Mr. Allen. With postage on it. 

The Chairman. With postage? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. Addressed to the Ambassador, whoever he was at 
the time you arrived in Washington? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. You actually mailed the letter? 

Mr. Allen. I mailed the letter. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether she ever got a reply from 
the Rumanian Ambassador? 

Mr. Allen. Well, that was mailed to Rumania. 

The Chairman. The letter was? 

Mr. Allen. The letter was mailed to Rumania. 

The Chairman. After you got here? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; my request was to deliver it in person, to the 
new Ambassador if he had taken office. 

The Chairman. And if not, to mail it to Rumania ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. And she said that unless there was a new Am- 
bassador she didn't want you to deliver the letter ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; to the old regime. 

The Chairman. Did she indicate to you in any respect what the 
contents of the letter was? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

The Chairman. Did you inquire of her? 

Mr. Allen. I did not inquire. 

The Chairman. Were you not curious to find out why Mrs. Fry 
was writing him? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, I was ; but it was absolutely futile to ask what the 
contents of the letter was. 

The Chairman. You didn't open the letter to see ? 

Mr. Allen. No ; I don't open other people's mail. 

Mr. Thomas. May I ask one further question, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Yes, Mr. Thomas. 

Mr. Thomas. When you got instructions to call on the Italian 
Embassy, did vou have reason to believe that they expected you 
to call? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you have any letter of introduction from Mrs. 
Fry? 

Mr. Allen. No letter. 

Mr. Thomas. To anyone in the Italian Embassy? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Thomas. You went there without any letter 

Mr. Allen (interposing). I went right on the sidewalk. 

Mr. Thomas. And they gave you the same sort of interview 

Mr. Allen. Thev would give anybody who dropped in. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you not think it was rather unusual, or a little 
out of the ordinary, for them to give anyone, particularly who is 
not an Italian citizen, an interview, who dropped in? 

Mr. Allen. I do not know that it would be; I don't know. 

The Chairman. Pardon me, Mr. Thomas. 

Mr. Thomas. Yes. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4023 

The Chairman. You understand, Mr. Allen, that you are brought 
here under subpena and you have been subpened because you have 
been engaged in these activities and are not brought here except to 
give information. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. In connection with tho.se activities and to fur- 
nish all the facts. 

Mr. Allen. That is what I am here to do. 

Mr. Thomas. On your visit to the Italian Embassy did you men- 
tion to Mr. Cosmelli the individual name of Mrs. Fry? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Was the name you have referred to, Mr. Allen, Mr. 
Cosmelli. counsel to the Italian Embassy? 

Mr. Allen. Counsellor. 

Mr. Whitley. Counsellor? 

Mr. Allen. Counsellor. 

Mr. Whitley. To the Italian Embassy? 

Mr. Allen. He was ; yes. 

Mr. AYhitley. Giusseppi Cosmelli. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. In this conversation that you had with Mr. Cos- 
melli did you mention Mrs. Fry's name? 

Mr. Allen. No; I had no occasion to mention Mrs. Fry's name 
particularly because I didn't know he would know her anyway. 

Mr. Thomas. During your conversation with him, did not one of 
you refer to Mrs. Fry at all? 

The Chairman. Didn't he tell you there was great need for work 
here in the United States against Jewish combinations? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall that he did. I do not think so. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Allen, when 3^011 were in Washington did you 
call on any one of the Embassies other than the Rumanian and the 
Italian? 

Mr. Allen. I do not remember that I called on any other embassy 
except those two. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you contact anyone connected with the Russian 
Embassy? 

Mr. Allen. No; I don't recall that I went to any other Embassy. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you contact anyone, or did anyone contact you, 
from the British Embassy? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. That is all. 

The Chairman. What about the German Embassy? Did you con- 
tact it, or did anyone contact you from the German Embassy? 

Mr. Allen. I think I may have called the German Embassy, but 
I found no one that I cared to talk with. 

The Chairman. Now let us get the facts in connection with that. 
As a matter of fact, did not Mrs. Fry tell you to call upon the Ger- 
man Embassy? 

Mr. Allen. No; she did not. 

The Chairman. Did not Chapman tell you? 

Mr. Allen. No; the only Embassies that Chapman asked me to call 
were the Iraq — the Arabian Embassy — and that was the only one 
that there was any special request about. 

The Chairman. From Chapman? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 



4024 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. And the only other Embassies- 



Mr. Allen (interposing). There was no other that they asked me 
to call on. 

The Chairman. You were asked to call upon the Kumanian Em- 
bassy, were you not? 

Mr. Allen. Oh, yes; the Rumanian Embassy. 

The Chairman. But you were not told to go to the Italian Em- 
bassy ? 

Mr. Allen. No; I was not told to go to the Italian Embassy. 

Mr. Voorhis. I thought you said awhile ago that you called at the 
Italian Embassy at Mrs. Fry's suggestion? 

Mr. Allen. I think there is a misunderstanding about that. I said 
I called up the Rumanian Embassy at her request. 

Mr. Voorhis. What did you say when you first went in there? 
Personally, I would be tremendously embarrassed in calling at an 
Embassy to see somebody. What did you say when you called at the 
Embassy ? 

Mr. Allen. As far as I am personally concerned, I went there to 
discuss the conditions in Italy ; as to the work going on in Italy. 

Mr. Voorhis. Did you discuss the matter of persons attempting to 
carry on in the United States the same kind of things that the Ital- 
ians were doing in Italy? 

Mr. Allen. More or less as far as communism was concerned. 

Mr. Thomas. And you had no introduction whatever? 

Mr. Allen. I had no introduction whatever. 

Mr. Thomas. You were talking just as an absolute stranger, and 
opening up your heart? 

Mr. Allen. No; I did not open up my heart. Our remarks were 
few, and I left. 

Mr. Thomas. You also say you called on the German Embassy? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. At whose request? 

Mr. Allen. Nobody's. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you call at the German Embassy for the same 
purpose that you called on the Italian Embassy? 

Mr. Allen. For the same purpose. 

The Chairman. Let us get this straight. You sa}' you want to 
give this committee the full facts. 

Mr. Allen. That is right. 

The Chairman. Is it not a fact that you went to the German Em- 
bassy and talked to somebody in the Embassy while you were there? 

Mr. Allen. Oh, yes; I talked to somebody in the embassy; surely. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you had quite a discussion 
with someone in the German Embassy, did you not ? 

Mr. Allen. Not with the ambassador. The ambassador was not 
there. 

The Chairman. No; with the man in the German Embassy who 
was in charge. You had quite a discussion with him? 

Mr. Allen. I had quite a little talk with him; yes. 

The Chairman. And you discussed your work on the west coast ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. The work of your groups? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4025 

The Chairman. You told him you were making splendid headway, 
did you not? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall what the conversation was, any more than 
that Ave were going ahead. 

The Chairman. And he expressed satisfaction, did he not, that 
you were making good progress? 

Mr. Allex. I am quite sure that he did. 

The Chairman. You told him about the bund; about the work 
of the bund in connection with your organizations? 

Mr. Allen. I may have told him something about the work we 
were doing. I do not recall that we connected up the two. 

The Chairman. You gave him the best regards from Arno Risse, 
did you not? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

The Chairman. You mentioned Arno Risse to him, did you not? 

Mr. Allen. I may have mentioned him ; oh, yes. 

The Chairman. Didn't you ask him about the work they were do- 
ing in Germany in ridding Germany of Jewish Communists? 

Mr. Allen, t believe so. 

The Chairman. And he told you the work they were doing there? 

Mr. Allen. He went on to describe briefly the work that they had 
done during this uprising. 

The Chairman. What did he tell you as to what they hoped to 
accomplish ultimately ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I would not be able to recall his statements or 
words. That is some time ago. 

The Chairman. It was to the effect that they would get rid of all 
the Jews in Germany before they got through? 

Mr. Allen. That may possibly have been. 

The Chairman. Did he tell you that the bund and these other 
organizations were doing fine work ? Didn't he tell you he had gotten 
other reports in connection with this work? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall that ; no. 

The Chairman. Now let us be very clear about that. In the 
course of the conversation did he not mention the fact that he was 
well-advised as to what was going on? 

Mr. Allen. He may have. I do not know. I could not recall. 

The Chairman. You certainly could recall an important thing like 
that. You could certainly recall whether or not he said to you that 
he had gotten reports from the bund telling him about the progress 
of the work. 

Mr. Allen. About the progress of the work of the bund ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Allen. Well, he may have done so ; yes. I don't doubt that he 
did. 

The Chairman. You know he did, as a matter of fact ? 

Mr. Allen. No; I do not. I don't remember that he did. 

The Chairman. You do remember that the bund was mentioned in 
the conversation? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; I remember that. 

The Chairman. You remember that distinctly? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That was in connection with the work of the 
bund? 



4026 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. Exactly. 

The Chairman. And you discussed with him some of the leaders 
in the bund movement on the west coast, did you not ? 

Mr. Allen. I think I discussed Herman Schwinn. 

The Chairman. You told him that Herman Schwinn was doing a 
fine job? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And he said that they were very well pleased with 
his work? 

Mr. Allen. He may have. I do not know whether he did or not. 

The Chairman. I do not want you to say anything that is not 
true. 

Mr. Allen. Oh. no; I know .that. If I remember it, I shall tell 
you so ; if I cannot remember it, I shall not tell you. 

The Chairman. But you recall that Schwinn's name was brought 
up ? 

Mr. Allen. I recall that; yes. 

The Chairman. Was any other name brought up ? 

Mr. Allen. There may have been three or four, but I cannot recall 
them. I think Mr. Risse's name was brought up also. 

The Chairman. Did you not tell him in that conversation that you 
had a hard time getting money — finance? 

Mr. Allen. I do not recall that. 

The Chairman. You do not recall anything being mentioned about 
finance ? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

The Chairman. Didn't you tell him that you and the other groups 
appreciated the literature that was being sent over from Germany to 
aid the cause? 

Mr. Allen. I may have told him that I appreciated what I got 
from Germany. 

The Chairman. You remember that, don't you? 

Mr. Allen. I think I made some mention of getting the World 
Service. 

The Chairman. You told him you appreciated that, and you told 
him that the other groups appreciated it ? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall about the other groups. 

The Chairman. Didn't you toll him that that was being put to 
good use? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall that at all. I told him that I appreciated 
receiving the World Service. 

The Chairman. What did he tell you in response to that; that 
they were glad to give the service? 

Mr. Allen. He did not make any remark about that, that I recall. 

The Chairman. Didn't he tell you that he was pleased with what 
the German-American Bund was doing? 

Mr. Allen. Being a German. I presume lie was. 

The Chairman. Let us have no presumption. From your con- 
versation with him, did you not gather very distinctly that he was 
pleased with what the German-American Bund was doing? 

Mr. Allen. There was no great lot of conversation about the 
German Bund. 

The Chairman. Other than what you have previously testified 
to? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4027 

Mr. Allen. No. 

The Chairman. Did he give you any suggestions us to how to 

carry on the work in the future? 

Mr. A i len. No. 

The Chairman. Didn't he tell you about their experiences in Ger- 
many: what a difficult time they had at first in getting this over, and 
how they were opposed, and finally how they succeeded? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall any of that kind of conversation at all. 

The Chairman. lie told you, did he not, that he had gotten many 
favorable reports about the work that was being done here? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; I believe he made some remark like that. 

The Chairman. That is right; and he told you further that the 
prospects were that the work was going to succeed in the United 
States? 

Mr. Allen. No : he never made any remark like that at all that I 
remember; no. sir. 

The Chairman. You talked to him for about 40 minutes, did you 
not '. 

Mr. Allen. I don't think so. I don't think I was there more 
than 

The Chairman. He told you that he would be glad to hear from 
you at any time in regard to the work? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall that. 

The Chairman. Y"ou don't recall his saying anything like that at 
all \ 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Would you say he did not say that, as you left 
him: that he would be glad to hear from you in the future? 

Mr. Allen. Oh. no : he did not make any remark like that at all. 

The Chairman. Did you tell him that you would keep in touch 
with him? 

Mr. Allen. I would have no reason to keep in touch with him. 

The Chairman. Now, in this conversation you talked about the 
Silver Shirts, did you not? Do you remember that the Silver Shirts 
wnre brought up in the conversation? 

Mr. Allen. No; I do not remember that. 

The Chairman. You do not remember that the Gold Shirts were 
brought up in the conversation? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

The Chairman. The only organizations that you remember were 
the bund and your organization and some of the other organizations 
on the west coast? 

Mr. Allen. As far as the organizations were concerned, there was 
no conversation that I recall about any organization except his own — 
I mean the bund. 

The Chairman. His own organization? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; the bund organization. That was all that was 
talked about. 

The Chairman. I believe that is all. 

Mr. Thomas. Will you tell the committee the full name of the 
man you saw in the German Embassy? 

Mr. Allen. I do not remember what his name was. 

Mr. Whitley. Was the name Thomsen — Hans Thomsen, counselor 
•of the German Embassy? 



4028 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. I would not recall. 

Mr. Whitley. You had all this conversation and do not remember 
the name of the man? 

Mr. Allen. I do not recall the name at all. 

Mr. Thomas. How long were you in Washington on that particular 
visit? 

Mr. Allen. I should say about a week. 

Mr. Thomas. And that was in what month of what year? 

Mr. Allen. That was in January 1938. 

Mr. Thomas. You called on the Rumanian Embassy, or you sent 
a letter to the Rumanian Embassy 

Mr. Allen. No ; I did not send a letter to the Rumanian Embassy. 

Mr. Thomas. The Ambassador, I mean. 

Mr. Allen. No ; I sent no letter. 

Mr. Thomas. No; but you forwarded a letter from Mrs. Fry? 

Mr. Allen. I mav have forwarded Mrs. Fry's letter to Rumania. 

Mr. Thomas. And you called on the Italian Embassy and the 
German Embassy. What other people did you call on in Washington 
during that visit? 

Mr. Allen. I called on a number. I called on Mr. True, and I 
believe I called — I believe I called on a Mrs. Jemison. 

Mr. Thomas. What was her first name? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall her first name. 

Mr. Whitley. Alice Lee ? Was it Alice Lee Jemison ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; that is it. 

Mr. Thomas. And who else? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall anybody else outside of those. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you call on any officials connected with the 
United States Government? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. I think I called at one of the commercial 
commissions in regard to the raisins — in regard to seeing if some- 
thing could be done about the raisins in the San Joaquin Valley. 

Mr. Thomas. What official was that ? 

Mr. Allen. I cannot recall that, to save my life. 

Mr. Thomas. That was a commercial matter ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, the object of that call was to see what could be 
done with the raisins which were at that time lying in barns and 
shacks and rotting and whether there could be some disposition made 
of that tremendous crop of raisins for which there was no market. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you call on any other official in the Government? 

Mr. Allen. I believe I called on the Passport Division; no, not the 
Passport Division, but one of the secretaries of state, I think — in 
regard to my own immigration. 

Mr. Thomas. In the State Department? 

Mr. Allen. I think so. 

Mr. Thomas. You called on someone in the State Department? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 
_ Mr. Thomas. Relative to your own what ? 

Mr. Allen. Immigration into Mexico. And then there was another 
official that I called upon, but I do not remember who it was. I know 
there were two officials. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you call on any Cabinet member? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; I think one of Mr. Hull's secretaries, that I 
called on. 



UN-AMERICAN I'KOI'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 4029 

Mr. Thomas. What was (hat about? 

.Mr. Allen. I can't recall what that was about specifically. 

Mr. Thomas. You do not recall why that call was made? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall the nature of that. 

Mr. Thomas. You don't recall the nature of your visit to the State 
Department \ 

Mr. Allen. No; if I remember correctly, I met one of the under 
secretaries, but who it was I don't remember. I don't remember his 
name. 

Mr. Thomas. You did not call on any Cabinet member? 

Mr. Allen. Oh, no. 

Mr. Thomas. Or any Member of the United States Senate or the 
House of Representatives? 

Mr. Allen. No, not that I remember ; no, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, getting back to this conversation at the 
German Embassy, you said that the only organization you dis- 
cussed was the bund, their organization ? 

Mr. Allen. As I remember ; yes. 

The Chairman. Yes; but now, as a matter of fact, you testify that 
you did talk about Herman Schwinn and Arno Risse? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; I think I did. I am quite sure I talked about 
them. 

The Chairman. Is it not a fact that a discussion came up about 
Fritz Kuhn? 

Mr. Allen. No ; not that I remember. 

The Chairman. I want you to think clearty. 

Mr. Allen. I am just telling you to the best of my memory. 

The Chairman. To the best of your memory, don't you now re- 
member that the name of Kuhn came up in the conversation? 

Mr. Allen. Not that I recall. 

The Chairman. And that the name Pelly came up in the conver- 
sation? 

Mr. Allen. Possibly. 

The Chairman. Possibly? Now, as a matter of fact, don't you 
remember that Pelly's name did come up in the conversation? 

Mr. Allen. No; I don't recall that part of the conversation. It 
may have. I'm not going to swear that it did, because I don't 
remember. 

The Chairman. No; I do not want you to swear to anything that 
is not the truth. 

Mr. Allen. If I remember a thing, I will tell you, but if I do not, 
I am not going to admit it. 

The Chairman. But you do not recall anything said about Pelly? 

Mr. Allen. I do not remember it ; no, sir. 

The Chairman. I think that is all. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you tell the party with whom you talked at the 
German Embassy that you had a letter of introduction from Herman i 
Schwinn to Fritz Kuhn in New York? 

Mr. Allen. That is possible, because I had one. 

Mr. Whitley. You had such a letter ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. A letter which had been written by Herman Schwinn, 
the leader of the far-West division of the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 



4030 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Introducing you to Fritz Kuhn? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And during your conversation at the German Em- 
bassy did you not make mention of that fact ? 

Mr. Allen. I do not recall that I did. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not remember any comments which were 
made about Mr. Schwinn in the discussion ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I may have mentioned it, but I do not remember 
it. 

Mr. Whitley. But you did have such a letter ? 

Mr. Allen. I did have the letter ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Introducing you to the leader of the German -Amer- 
ican Bund, from the west-coast leader ? 

Mr. Allen. To Fritz Kuhn ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it not a fact that Mr. Deatherage was in town at 
that time ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. At the same time you were here ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Was any mention made of the fact, during the con- 
versation at the Embassy, that Mr. Deatherage had visited the Em- 
bassy ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. No mention whatever? 

Mr. Allen. No mention whatever. 

Mr. Whitley. And you still do not remember the name of the man 
you talked to at the Embassy ? 

Mr. Allen. No ; I do not remember. 

Mr. Whitley. He was one of the officials there ? 

Mr. Allen. He was a rather youngish man, but what his name was 
and what his capacity was I do not remember. 

Mr. Whitley. On that visit to Washington approximately, how 
long were you here ? 

Mr. Allen. I would say about a week, and possibly a day or two 
over. 

Mr. Whitley. In addition to the activities that you have already 
outlined, and which were being carried out in accordance with the 
instructions received from the west coast, explain the nature of your 
activities at the Mayflower Hotel — your picketing activities. 

Mr. Allen. The plan there was to picket the Maj'flower Hotel as a 
protest against the occupation of Palestine by the Jews. The thing 
was done as a friendly gesture toward the Arabs. In other words, 
the picketing was done by Arabs. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, why the Mayflower ? Is that where the meet- 
ing was being held? 

Mr. Allen. The convention was being held at the Mayflower Hotel,, 
for 3 days. 

Mr. Whitley. And was that convention picketed ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Who actually performed the picketing of the May- 
flower ? 

Mr. Allen. If I remember, we had 8 or 10 Arabs. 

The Chaerman. Right there, there is something that does not con- 
nect up. When you were at the embassy, you discussed with them 












IX A.MKKK'AX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4Q31 



• : II 



about this picketing, did you nol '. That was the reason you went to 
the embassy \ 

Mr. Allen. Which embassy? 

The Chairman. The Arabian Embassy. 

Mr. Allen. Oh, I did not go to the Arabian Embassy. 

The Chairman. You did not go there at all \ 

Air. Allen. No, sir. 

The Chairman. All right : go ahead. 

Mr. Whitley. Where did you get the Arabs that were used for this 
picketing duty \ 

Mr. Allen. I did not procure the Arabs myself at all. 

Mr. Whitley. Who procured them for you? 

Mr. Allen. A man who came down from New York. 

Mr. Whitley. What was his name? 

Mr. Allen. His name was George. 

Air. Whitley. Peter George? 

Mr. Allen. Peter George. 

Mr. Whitley. And who is Peter George? 

Mr. Allen. The only knowledge I have of him is that he is at- 
tached in some way to the Arab League. 

Mr. Whitley. Attached to the Arab League ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And through him you secured the services of about 
10 pickets? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Arabs, who picketed the Mayflower for what period 
of time ? 

Mr. Allen. If I recall it, the first picketing was done Saturday 
night, and again on Sunday night or Sunday evening from, I think, 
about G o'clock until about 8 each evening. 

Mr. Whitley. That was all planned and arranged, though, by you, 
and you just secured the manpower through Peter George? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did the pickets carry placards? 

Mr. Allen. They carried placards; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was there any protest or any discussion or trouble 
over the picketing? 

Mr. Allen. None whatever. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you report the results of your activities in 
Washington to Mrs. Fry ? 

Mr. Allen. I wrote them. 

Mr. Whitley. Both as the outcome of the picketing assignment 
and also your visits to the various embassies? 

Mr. Allen. I believe so. 

Mr. Whitley. And you stated a moment ago. I believe, Mr. Allen, 
that you did not visit — you did or did not visit the Arab Legation? 

Air. Allen. Did not. 

Mr. Whitley. That is known as the Iraq Legation? 

Mr. Allen. I believe so; yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. What is the name of this Palestine convention that 
was held ; do you know ? 

Mr. Allen. It was called the World Convention for Palestine 
Relief, or something like that. That is not the exact name of it, 
but it was something on that order. 



4032 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Allen, I think yon said that Mr. Chapman asked 
you to call at the Arabian Embassy? 

Mr. Allen. He did. 

Mr. Voorhis. But you did not actually do it ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I would like to determine something 
in regard to this picketing. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Thomas. How much were these pickets paid? 

Mr. Allen. I believe they were paid $2 for each night. 

Mr. Thomas. And did you yourself pay them ? 

Mr. Allen. I gave the money to Mr. George, and he paid them. 

Mr. Thomas. And you received that money from whom? 

Mr. Allen. From Mr. Chapman. 

Mr. Thomas. Now, you mentioned Miss Jemison. Was it not a 
Miss Jemison that you mentioned before? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. A resident of Washington? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Who is Miss Jemison ? 

Mr. Allen. I understand she is the national secretary of the 
American Indian Confederation. 

Mr. Thomas. Is it not also true that she is an agitator of the 
Indians? 

Mr. Allen. Not to my knowledge. I do not think she is an agi- 
tator. 

Mr. Thomas. How long did you discuss matters with Miss Jemi- 
son? 

Mr. Allen. Oh, I think I was there possibly 20 or 30 minutes that 
afternoon. 

Mr. Thomas. And what did you discuss with Miss Jemison? 

Mr. Allen. A matter concerning the file that she might have as 
to the Palm Springs situation; in regard to the Indians in Palm 
Springs. 

Mr. Thomas. That is all. 

Mr. Whitley. On this same trip, Mr. Allen, did you see Mr. 
Deatherage at any time? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Where did you see him ? 

Mr. Allex. At St. Albans, W. Va. 

Mr. Whitley. You went there to visit him ? 

Mr. Allen. I went there to visit him ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How long did you remain with him in St. Albans? 

Mr. Allen. One day. 

Mr. Whitley. And what was the purpose of that trip? 

Mr. Allen. Merely to discuss with him what progress had been 
made on the Pacific coast. 

Mr. Whitley. That was just a follow-up conversation on the ones 
you had previously had with him on the coast in the preceding fall? 

Mr. Allen. That is true. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he at that time elaborate any upon this chart 
which he had given you, or plans for setting up that organization? 

Mr. Allen. No ; we never referred to it. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4033 

Mr. Whitley. Incident ally, the official emblem of this organization, 
which is to set up and organize this group as outlined on the chart, is 
the swastika, is it not? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I do not know as to that. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever seen any of the literature? 

Mr. Allen. I have had some of their letterheads with the swastika. 
I do not know whether they consider that as their official emblem or 
not. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Mr. Deatherage discuss that with you? 

Mr. Allen. I never discussed that with Mr. Deatherage at all. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have any discussion with any individuals 
affiliated with that group '. 

Mr. Allen. Let me explain that the appearance of the swastika on 
their stationery or otherwise came about after I had left St. Albans 
and gone back to the Pacific coast. There were no swastikas in evi- 
dence when I was there. 

Mr. Whitley. There were not? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. But you have seen them on the literature of the 
American Nationalist Confederation ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes ; more recently. 

The Chairman. Before we leave this picketing proposition, is it not 
a fact that the bund on the coast has distributed pamphlets on the 
Arabian-Palestine controversy? You have seen pamphlets? 

Mr. Allen. I have seen pamphlets, but to my knowledge they are 
not distributed by the bund. 

The Chairman. Who distributes them? 

Mr. Allen. Those are distributed by Mrs. Fry; a great number of 
them. 

The Chairman. And some of those pamphlets were sent to various 
Negro leaders in the United States, were they not? 

Mr. Allen. I have no knowledge of it. 

The Chairman. You do not know about that? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Whitley. In addition to your activities in Washington and 
your visit with George Deatherage on this trip, did you have a visit 
with Gerald Winrod in Kansas? 

Mr. Allen. On my way east, I think. 

Mr. Whitley. On your way east you stopped ? 

Mr. Allen. I stopped either on my way east or going back; I 
don't recall which. I think it w r as on my way east. 

Mr. Whitley. How long did you visit with Mr. Winrod? 

Mr. Allen. Between trains. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that in accordance with instructions from Mrs. 
Fry? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. It was just voluntary? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that the first time you had met Mr. Winrod? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. When was the occasion of your first meeting with 
him? 



4034 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. I met Mr. Winrod, I think, in 1935. 
Mr. Whitley. And where was that meeting ? 

Mr. Allen. That was in a church where he was speaking, in 
Altadena, a suburb of Pasadena. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the occasion of your visit with him on 
this eastern trip which we are discussing? 

Mr. Allen. I wanted to ask him in regard to the progress of his 
campaign that he proposed to make for the Senate. 

Mr. Whitley. Had you previously corresponded with him? 
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Had you exchanged literature with him? 
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Had you distributed some of his literature? 
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And he in turn had you send him literature of yours 
to be distributed ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I don't think we ever sent him very much, but 
there had been some exchange. 

Mr. Whitley. And he had indicated interest in your problem- and 
jour program? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you discuss your program or your plans with 
him on the occasion of this visit to which we are referring? 
Mr. Allen. Well, only in a general way. 
Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of that discussion? 
Mr. Allen. That I was working on the Pacific coast and for the 
purpose of trying to coordinate the different groups there. 

Mr. Whitley. And did he express sympathy with the program or 
plans which you had? 

Mr. Allen. He thought it was the proper thing to do. 
Mr. Whitley. In other words, he was in accord with the program 
and plans which you had ? 
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you on this trip visit with any persons in Xew 
York — on this same trip while you were, east ? 
Mr. Allen. On this same trip? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. After leaving Washing on, did you go to Xew 
York? 
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Whom did you meet there? 
Mr. Allen. I had a very short visit with Mr. Edmondson. 
Mr. Whitley. Mr. Robert Edmondson? 
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of that visit? 
Mr. Allen. It was more or less descriptive, in a general way, of 
what we were trying to do on the Pacific coast. 
Mr. Whitley. Had you ever met him before ? 
Mr. Allen. I had never met him before. 
Mr. Whitley. Had you had correspondence with him? 
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Had you seen his literature? 
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Had he sent you literature which he had prepared? 
Mr. Allen. I had distributed much of his literature; yes, sir. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4035 

Mi-. Whitley. Had you exchanged literature with him? 

Mr. Allen. To some extent. We sent him what little we had. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you discuss with him your program and plans? 

Mr. Allen. In a general way. the same as with Mr. Winrod. 

Mr. W h i tl ey. Did he seem to be sympathetic and in accord with 
your plans? 

Mr. Allen. He was quite sympathetic. 

Mr. Whitley. Was there any discussion with him with reference to 
setting up an organization or affiliating with an organization whose 
purpose was to bring all these groups into one big organization or 
federation \ 

Mr. Alien. None that I recall, except that there was some plan afoot 
at that time for the formation of an American nationalist confedera- 
tion, or something like that. 

Mr. Whitley. Party? 

Mr. Allen. Party. Yes; not confederation, but party. He just 
spoke briefly, in a general way, as to what that was. That was all. 

Mr. Whitley. What was it? 

Mr. Allen. Well, along the line of the usual work in coordinating 
groups in the East. 

Mr. Whitley. That w T as more or less the objective of all of these 
individuals and groups, was it not, Mr. Allen — to work out some means, 
some method, whereby they could all be brought together into one big 
organization? Was not that more or less the ultimate plan or hope? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I think in a general way that w T as what we all had 
in mind, because that was really the sensible thing to think about. 

Mr. Whitley. It was the proposition "In unity there is strength," 
and that if you have one big organization instead of a lot of small 
organizations you have a much better chance to succeed? 

Mr. Allen. We cannot fight Jewish communism with small units all 
over the country. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you visit with anyone else in New York? 

Mr. Allen. I did. I called on Fritz Kuhn at his office. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you present the letter of introduction which 
had been written for you by Mr. Schwinn ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Why didn't you present it, Mr. Allen ? 

Mr. Allen. I didn't have to. 

Mr. Whitley. It was not necessary? 

Mr. Allen. It was not necessary. 

Mr. Whitley. He saw you without any letter of introduction? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Had he been advised in advance of your coming? 

Mr. Allen. He did not know I was coming at all. 

Mr. Whitley. How did you announce yourself in order to get an 
audience with him? 

Mr. Allen. He knows my name. 

Mr. Whitley. He was familiar with your activities? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. He knew you had been cooperating with Schwinn 
and Risse as the leaders on the west coast? 

Mr. Allen. Not cooperating, but he knows the type of work we 
try to do. 



4036 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. And being sympathetic with them, he was glad to 
grant you an audience? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you at the time of your interview and visit with 
Kuhn tell him about your visit at the German Embassy in Wash- 
ington ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir; I do not recall that I even mentioned it. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not think that would be of interest to him ? 

Mr. Allen. Our conversation was very brief; I do not think I 
talked to him more than 5 minutes. He seemed to be very busy. He 
said he would like it if I would address a meeting of a new bund, 
I think they call it, somewhere near Boston. 

Mr. Whitley. Setting up a .new unit ? 

Mr. Allen. He asked me if I would address them the next day. 

Mr. Whitley. And of course, not knowing you previously — that 
is, not knowing you personally — he was basing his view of you and 
your abilities as a speaker on what he had heard from his men on 
the west coast? 

Mr. Allen. I do not know as to that. 

Mr. Whitley. He would not invite a total stranger, whom he had 
not previously met, to address the bund if he did not know some- 
thing about you. 

Mr. Allen. Of course, he knew me. 

Mr. Whitley. He knew about your work and what you were 
doing ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you discuss with him plans for further activities 
on the west coast ? 

Mr. Allen. I discussed no plans whatever with Fritz Kuhn. 

Mr. Whitley. Just a purely social conversation ? 

Mr. Allen. Just a few minutes' social conversation and then I left. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he express his gratitude for the work you had 
been doing out there ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you mention to him his leaders on the west coast ? 

Mr. Allen. I mentioned Herman Schwinn and Arno Risse. 

Mr. Whitley. And the fact that you had been in contact with them ? 

Mr. Allen. He knew that. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you address the meeting which he invited you to 
address ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Was your contact with Edmondson and your contact 
with Kuhn in keeping with instructions or plans made before you left 
California ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That was just voluntary? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you see or talk to any other members of the bund 
in New York on that occasion ? 

Mr. Allen. Only those with whom I came in contact at Mr. Kuhn'a 
office. 

Mr. Whitley. Were any of those officials of the bund ? 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4037 

Mr. Allen. I do not think so. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you write, or call up, or make an appointment in 
advance? 

Mr. Allen. I did not call at all ; I went up to see him. 

Mr. Whitley. You just went up ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. Where was his office? 

Mr. Allen. I am not sure as to the exact address, but I think it is 
on East Eighty-Fifth Street. 

The Chairman. Was it a large office, and did he have a private 
office ? 

Mr. Allen. His own office was quite small. 

The Chairman. He had a big reception room ? 

Mr. Allen. No; there was a large room in which there w r ere a 
number of desks, and a number of men were sitting there writing. 

The Chairman. How many men were sitting there ? 

Mr. Allen. I think there were four or five. 

The Chairman. Four or five men in the outer office? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. He had a secretary ? 

Mr. Allen. There was no secretary in the inside office that I saw. 

The Chairman. You saw a good many swastikas there, did you 
not? 

Mr. Allen. A number of swastikas. 

The Chairman. They had swastikas on the wall, did they not? 

Mr. Allen. I do not recall as to that, and I do not recall whether 
they were hanging up there or not. 

The Chairman. You did not see any swastikas there ? 

Mr. Allen. I am sure I saw one swastika. As I recall, there was 
one swastika there, with two large American flags there on one 
wall. 

The Chairman. Was that the German-American Bund office? 

Mr. Allen. No; it was the office of the German-American Busi- ! 
ness Men's League, or something like that, as I remember. That is 
what I recall. 

Air. Whitley. That was at 178 East Eighty-fifth Street? 

Mr. Allen. I think that w T as the address; I know it is on East 
Eighty-fifth Street. 

Air. Whitley. Who else did you contact while you were in New 
York? 

Mr. Allen. I do not recall contacting anybody else. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you contact or interview any local officials? 

Mr. Allen. Oh, yes" Not local officials; no. I made a call upon 
Jeremiah Cross. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his connection? 

Mr. Allen. He is — I think he was at that time the State com- 
mander of the American Legion. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the purpose of that contact? 

Mr. Allen. That was something in regard to making a protest 
against an appointment or an election, or something or other, of 
some Jewish Communist in Manhattan, as a local official; I do 
not recall the name. 

Mr. Whitley. Was the name Gerson? 

94931— 39— vol. 6 22 



4038 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. I called there to arrange with him, if pos- 
sible, to make a definite and emphatic protest against the appoint- 
ment or the election. 

Mr. Whitley. Who had made that appointment? 

Mr. Allen. Well, his superior; I do not recall his name now. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the position to which Mr. Gerson had 
been appointed? 

Mr. Allen. It was some city administrator, or something like that. 

Mr. Whitley. Borough president? 

Mr. Allen. Borough president, that was it. 

Mr. Whitley. Of what Borough? 

Mr. Allen. Manhattan, I believe. 

Mr. Whitley. Brooklyn or Manhattan \ 

Mr. Allen. Manhattan, I believe; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That apointment had just been made? 

Mr. Allen. It had just been made. 

Mr. Whitley. You wanted to support the protest \ 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you enter any protest ; was any protest made \ 

Mr. Allen. Yes; I believe there was a demonstration made, or 
Mr. Cross told me at that time that he was going to make, or the 
American Legion, was going to make a formal protest, that the 
American Legion 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether that was done or not? 

Mr. Alien. I left it in his hands: I did not follow it up. 

Mr. Whitley. You did suggest that such a protect be made I 

Mr. Allen. I strongly suggested it; yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you contact or confer with any one else while 
you were in New York ? 

Mr. Allen. I do not recall now that I did. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you get in touch with any of the leaders of the 
Arabian League ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; I called them the Arab League. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that the league of which Mr. Peter George is the 
head? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Whom did you talk to there ? 

Mr. Allen. There were six or eight Arabs there, and I chatted for 
a very few minutes. I could not talk much because I do not under- 
stand the Arab language- 
Mr. Whitley. What was the purpose of that call ? 

Mr. Allen. Just a social call. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you discuss plans with Mr. George ? 

Mr. Allen. No; no plans, nothing except a social call. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you tell any of these individuals or organiza- 
tions that you were representing Mrs. Fry and her organization? 

Mr. Allen. Mr. George knew that because Mr. George was a very 
close friend of Mrs. Fry. 

Mr. Whitley. Was it at her suggestion that you got in touch with 
Mr. George? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir ; I believe it was. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you confer with any one else in New York. 

Mr. Allen. I think not. 

Mi 1 . Whitley. Neither an individual nor an official of any organ- 
ization? 



UN-AMERIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4039 

Mr. A 1. 1. in. Not that I can recall now. 
Mr. Whitley. Did you see Mr. Sanctuary? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Incidentally, when you were in Washington, had 
you conferred with Mr. James True before going to New York, while 
you were here ? 

Mr. Allen. I saw Mr. True; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you see him on a number of occasions? 

Mr. Allen. Several. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he assist you in any way in carrying our your 
plans? 

Mr. Allen. Not at all. 

Mr. Whitley. You discussed them? 

Mr. Allen. I did: I told him what we were going to do. 

Mr. Whitley. He was sympathetic? 

Mr. Allen. He was sympathetic, possibly. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you use his office as headquarters while you were 
here '. 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; I received my mail there. 

Mr. Whitley. Which means you were in close contact with him 
during that period? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. After leaving New York on your trip, you went 
to Chicago? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. This was while you w T ere returning West? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. I never met the man. 

The Chairman. All you know is you were instructed to see him? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you attempt to see him, or to contact him? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Whitley. You were unsuccessful? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; he was away, out of the city. 

Mr. Whitley. Who else did you see or attempt to see in Chicago ? 

Mr. Allen. I saw a Dr. Uznanszky. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is Dr. Uznanszky? 

Mr. Allen. Dr. Uznanszky is a practicing physician in Chicago. 

Mr. Whitley. It was on instructions from Mrs. Fry that you were 
to see him? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not know him, and had not met him pre- 
viously ? 

Mr. Allen. Never saw him. 

Mr. Whitley. What, is his connection ? 

Mr. Allen. He is interested in the work. 

Mr. Whitley. He is interested in your work? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Actively, or does he participate financially, make a 
financial contribution? 

Mr. Allen. I do not know as to that, except that he has a large 
number of friends among the Polish people and is active in that 
way, that is all. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he is connected with any or- 
ganizations or groups? 

Mr. Allen. That I could not say. 



4040 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of your conversation with 
him ? 

Mr. Allen. Just asked him what work had been commenced in 
that area. 

The Chairman. Among the Poles? 

Mr. Allen. Among the Poles ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You mean work against the Jewish Communists ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. What did he tell }^ou they had done, what work? 

Mr. Allen. A great deal of work had been done. 

The Chairman. And that they had made very rapid progress? 

Mr. Allen. Made very definite progress in that area. 

The Chairman. Among the Poles? 

Mr. Allen. Among the Polish people. 

Mr. Thomas. Is this work particular work against the Jewish 
Communists, or is it the Jewish people? 

Mr. Allen. Primarily the Jewish Communists. 

Mr. Thomas. But it is against the Jewish people, too, is it not? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir; against only Jewish Communists and Jewish 
communism. 

Mr. Thomas. Is it against Communists who may not be Jewish 
people ? 

Mr. Allen. It is against any Communist. 

Mr. Thomas. But you are always referring to it as Jewish com- 
munism, you never refer to it otherwise; you say communism is 
Jewish. 

Let us straighten that out. I think we ought to develop that a 
little bit. 

The leaders of communism in this country are not Jewish, are 
they ? 

Mr. Allen. The leaders of communism in this country are Jewish. 

Mr. Thomas. Take Earl Browder, for instance. 

Mr. Allen. We do not look upon them as being leaders. 

Mr. Thomas. You say Earl Browder is not a leader? 

Mr. Allen. He is not a leader; we do not look upon Earl Browder 
as being anything like the real leader of communism. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you not think that many of these organizations, 
Mr. Allen, are just as much opposed to the Jews as they are against 
the Communists? 

Mr. Allen. That is possibly so, hut when I say we do not look upon 
Mr. Browder as being the leader, I refer to the real fountain-head of 
communism in America, or in the world, and that is the Jewish Com- 
mittee, the Jewish Agency, and the Jewish Labor Committee. 

Mr. Thomas. At the same time, you do admit that these organiza- 
tions are opposed to the Jewish people? 

Mr. Allen. Which, the Communist organizations? 
Mr. Thomas. No ; all these organizations which you referred to in 
your testimony. 

Mr. Allen. Only insofar — I want to be straightened out on this, 
because I have no animosity against the Jewish people, as Jewish 
people, but only insofar as their identity is concerned with com- 
munism. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you contend that some of these organizations you 
refer to would welcome Jewish people into their organizations? 
Mr. Allen. I think not. 









UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4041 

Mr. Thomas. Exactly, not one of them would accept one Jew, 
whether he is a Communist or not, and you know it. 

Mr. Allen. We do not accept Jews in any organization in this 
work, because of their racial characteristics and their connections 
with Jewry. 

Mr. Thomas. That is just what I wanted to clear up; none of those 
units would accept a Jewish person in their organization, regardless 
of what their political faith might be. 

Mr. Allen. No, sir; because they have learned that to admit one 
Jew will wreck the organization. 

The Chairman. Do you contend that a majority of Jews are Com- 
munists \ 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Just a small minority? 

Mr. Allen. As to that I do not know, except that the Jewish com- 
mittee 

The Chairman. I am asking you; you just said that a majority are 
not Communists. 

Mr. Allen. I do not think the majority are, 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you do not think they are; a 
majority of them are not Communists, are they? 

Mr. Allen. Any Jew who belongs to any 

The Chairman. I am asking you ; are the majority of Jews, in your 
opinion. Communists ? 

Mr. Allen. I believe they are. 

The Chairman. A majority of them ? 

Mr. Allen. I believe they are. 

Mr. Mason. That is a very significant statement, because there are 
seven or eight million Jews in the United States, and there are prob- 
ably less than one-tenth of 1 percent Communists. That is far from 
being a majority. A majority would mean about 3.500,000 or more 
of Jews that are Communists, when the testimony that we had before 
our committee is to the effect that there are not that man}' Communists 
in the United States, as a matter of fact, 

Mr. Allen. May I qualify that statement by saying Jewish leaders. 

The Chairman. Do you maintain that the majority of Jews are 
Communists ? 

Air. Allen. Not of the Jewish race, 

The Chairman. I am talking about the Jewish race. 

Mr. Allen. No ; I do not believe that. 

The Chairman. You believe that only a small minority are Com- 
munists ? 

Mr. Allen. My attack is made solely on the Jewish leaders. 

The Chairman. That would be only a few. 

Mr. Allen. All right : a very few. 

The Chairman. Would you condemn a whole race on account of the 
actions of a few leaders ? 

Mr. Allen. Xo, sir. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, 3-011 are anti-Jewish, whether 
they are Communists or not. 

Mr. Allen. Personally, I am; yes. 

Mr. Mason. That is the answer. 

The Chairman. Let me ask you another question, and I want you 
to be very precise in your answer. You have described your visits to 



4042 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 



Mr. 

Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 

Park. 

Mr. 

Mr. 
Baroi 

Mr, 



the German Embassy here and the Italian Embassy, and your mailing 
of this letter to the Rumanian Embassy. 

As a matter of fact, you have had other contacts with Italian and 
German consulates in other parts of the country, have you not \ 

Mr. Allen. No. sir. 

The Chairman. You never have talked to any Italian and German 
consuls? 

Mr. Allen. Not with any of them except the German consul in Los 
Angeles. 

The Chairman. You have been on intimate terms with him I 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

The Chairman. And visited him at his home I 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You have talked to him about your work? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

The Chairman. You mean you never discussed with the German 
consul your work against the Jewish Communists? 

Mr. Allen. Never ; never had any occasion to. 

The Chairman. You only talked to him socially? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. Where did you meet him, at the German House? 

Mr. Allen. He was out there at the time. 

The Chairman. He was out there to attend a meeting? 

Mr. Allen. No; I do not think so. I think I met him there when 
I was out there buying literature 



Mr. 
Mr, 
Mr 

that < 
Mr 
Mr 

Los i 
Mr 
Mr 
Mr 

man ' 
Mr 

you a 

" Mr 
Mr 



Mi 
Mi 



The Chairman. He had nothing to do with the literature, but 
just happened to be there ? 

Mr. Allen. Just happened to be there. 

The Chairman. You just said, "How do you do?" and he said r 
"How do you do?" and you talked about insignificant matters? ''y 

Mr. Allen. Very casual conversation with him. 

The Chairman. And he never said anything about your work, and 
you never said anything about his work? . * ]m 

Mr. Allen. Nothing whatever. 

The Chairman. Did you ever meet the Italian representative 
there ? ^ 

Mr. Allen. Never. ™ 8 

The Chairman. Have you ever met the German consul or the 
Italian consul at any other place besides the west coast and here in Mr 
Washington? I ffll 

Mr. Allen. Not that I recall. 

The Chairman. You have heard him talk at some of these meet- * 
ings? Mr 

Mr. Allen. Not at any meeting I ever attended. Mr 

The Chairman. Not at a bund meeting or a Silver Shirt meeting? 

Mr. Allen. No. sir. Gag 

Mr. Voorhis. You never met Fritz Weideman, the consul general 
at San Francisco? tot! 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. Mi 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, did you not attend an official I , Mi 
meeting for Baron von Killinger? 

Mr. Allen. No. ^o 

Mr. Whitley. You did not attend that meeting in San Francisco? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir: never. ^1 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4043 

Mr. Whitley. Have you attended bund outings? 

Mr. Allen. I think not. 

Mr. Whitley. Ar which consuls were present and spoke? 

Mr. Allen. I have atl ended, I think, two picnics a1 Hindenburg 
Park. 

Mr. Whitley. Outside of Los Angeles? 

Mr. Allen. Near Los Angeles, and upon one of those occasions 
Baron Killinger spoke. 

Mr. Whitley. You also made a speech, did you not? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not -peak? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did not the consul in Los Angeles also speak on 
that occasion '. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. I believe he did. 

Mr. Whitley. The consul from San Francisco and the consul from 
Los Angeles were both present and both spoke? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the occasion for this celebration? 

Mr. Allen. It was some sort of a national feast day for the Ger- 
man people. 

Mr. Whitley. They were both present on both of those outings 
you attended and both spoke? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. They were bund outings? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Sponsored by the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Allen. Surely. 

Mr. Voorhis. As to this Palestine business, do you believe that all 
the Jewish people that go to Palestine are Communists, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. Oh. no. 

Mr. Voorhis. Where do you think the Jewish people should go? 
I mean if you do not think they should go to Palestine and you do 
not think they should be in Germany or in Italy, I assume you are 
opposed to their being in the United States? 

Mr. Allen. We have a large island off of the coast of Africa called 
Madagascar. 

Mr. Voorhis. That answers my question. 

Mr. Mason. I want to ask you one or two general questions, and 
I am interested in your reaction. 

In your own mind, you feel, do you. that you are a loyal, patriotic 
supoorter of our American form of government? 

Mr. Allen. I most certainly do. 

Mr. Mason. Do you believe that under our American form of gov- 
ernment minorities have rights that should be respected under our 
Constitution, such as free speech, the right to vote, if they are citi- 
zens, and the right to hold office, if they are citizens; you believe 
that ? 

Mr. Allen. I certainly do. 

Mr. Mason. If you believe that minorities under our Constitution, 
have these rights, whether it be a racial minority, or a religious 
minority, or a political minority, how can you square that with the 
idea, or objective you have, that we must get rid of all Jews from 
the Federal Government departments, and so forth. 



4044 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. Because many of us believe that Jews in the Federal 
Government are wrecking the country. 

Mr. Mason. Are wrecking the country because you feel that they 
are communistically inclined? 

Mr. Allen. Not necessarily ; no. 

Mr. Mason. But you feel that, regardless they are Communists, 
or not, if they have an active part in the official life of the Gov- 
ernment that they will wreck the Government? 

Mr. Allen. We can see in the .Jews in the present Government, in 
the Roosevelt administration, the carrying out of the Protocol plan, 
if you know what that is. 

Mr. Mason. Of course. I have heard what that is, but I know per- 
sonally many Jewish people not only in the Federal Government but 
in the local and State governments that make excellent officials, and 
they are certainly not wrecking the Government. 

Mr. Allen. The exception probably proves the rule. 

The Chaieman. That is a question that neither this committee nor 
any other committee can ever solve with respect to the Jewish race. 

(Thereupon, the committee adjourned to meet tomorrow, Wednes- 
day, August 23, 1939, at 10 a. m.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



l' er - WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 23, 1939 

t but 

House of Representatives, 
Special Committee to Investigate 

Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. G. 

The committee met at 10 : 30 a. m., in the Caucus Room, House 
Office Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding. 

Present : Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee. 

The Chairman. The committee will be in order. You may call 
your next witness, Mr. Whitley. 

Mr. Whitley. I will call Mr. Gardner. 

TESTIMONY OF FRASER GARDNER 

(The witness was duly sworn.) 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, will you state your full name and 
address for the record ? 

Mr. Gardner. Fraser Gardner; 229 Bond Building. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your occupation? 

Mr. Gardner. Political research. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you presently employed? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You are presently employed? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In what capacity? 

Mr. Gardner. Several; one, for Congressman Harry R. Sheppard, 
of California, in a civic survey in the District of Columbia, for the 
feasibility of setting up a dispensary system in the District of Co- 
lumbia. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your address as you gave it to the re- 
porter? I could not hear it. 

Mr. Gardner. 229 Bond Building. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your residence address? 

Mr. Gardner. I do not care to give it. 

The Chairman. You decline to give it? 

Mr. Gardner. I do not think it is pertinent, Mr. Dies. 

The Chairman. That is an immaterial matter; what objection 
would you have to giving your residence address? It is Wisconsin 
Avenue, is it not? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes ; you have it on file. 

The Chairman. What is the number? 

Mr. Whitley. 3224 Wisconsin Avenue. 

4045 



4046 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. 3224 Wisconsin Avenue; you may proceed. 

Mr. "Whitley. Mr. Gardner, will you repeat your business address? 

Mr. Gardner. 229 Bond Building. 

Mr. Whitley. In the Bond Building? 

Mr. Gardner. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, were you during February of this year 
an applicant for a position as an investigator for this committee? 

Mr. Gardner. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you file a formal application blank \ 

Mr. Gardner. I did. 

Mr. Whitley. And on that blank you set out your experience and 
qualifications ? 

Mr. Gardner. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you appear before this committee at that time 
for examination with reference to your application ? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And at that time you testified under oath with refer- 
ence to your connections, past and present, and your qualifications for 
the position sought ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Gardner. That is right, 

Mr. Whitley. At that time you testified that you had no connec- 
tions which would keep you from serving this committee to the best 
of your ability. 

Mr. Gardner. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. And you have just again testified with reference to 
the possibility of a position and the fact that you had no connections 
of any kind with interests with which this committee is concerned. 

Mr. Gardner. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you have no connections which 
would prevent yon from serving this committee properly. 

Mr. Gardner. That is correct, in my estimation. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, have you at any time recently con- 
tacted any parties, at which time you advised them that you had an 
inside track, that you had confidential sources of information with 
reference to this committee's work ? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You have not? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You have not advised anyone in that connection? 

Mr. Gardner. No; never. 

Mr. Whitley. You have not stated to anyone that you had contacts 
with this committee which would enable you to furnish very confi- 
dential information? 

Mr. Gardner. Never. 

Mr. Whitley. And you have not offered to sell to anyone confiden- 
tial information 

Mr. Gardner (interposing). Never. 

Mr. Whitley. Coming from this committee? 

Mr. Gardner. Never. 

Mr. Whitley. You have not? 

Mr. Gardner. Never. 

Mr. Whitley. At any time. As a matter of fact, Mr. Gardner, did 
you not go to the office of Mr. Sullivan, George E. Sullivan, an attor- 
ney here in Washington, and inform him that you had inside sources 
of information with this committee? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4047 

Mr. Gardner. I did not. 

Mr. Whitley. Please let me finish the question; and that yo ; ii 
would be glad, or that you could sell that information to any persons 
who might be interested in getting it? 

Mr-. Gardner. I did not. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not? 

Mr. Gardner. I did not. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not make such a proposition? 

Mr. Gardner. Never. 

Mr. Whitley. At any time? 

Mr. Gardner. Never. 

Mr. Whitley. You never made that to Mr. Sullivan or to anyone 
else? 

Mr. Gardner. Never. 

Mr. Whitley. Here in your examination before this committee 
in connection with your application in February, Mr. Gardner, you 
.-tared, in answer to the question: 

Did you ever investigate nazi-ism or fascism before the last year? 

You answered: 

I was in charge of the work really for the organization of the American 
Protective League. 

What is that organization? 

Mr. Gardner. What is it? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Gardner. It does not exist at the moment. It was a revival 
of the original American Protective League that operated during the 
World War. We revived it in November of 1937 with offices in the 
Washington Building. The original objectives of the American 
Protective League were to work with the Department of Justice, 
which they did, with the permission of the Department of Justice; 
they collaborated. 

The revival had no connection with the Department of Justice. 
We did not ask for their support. We offered to turn over any 
evidence that we might secure. We did not ask for any collabora- 
tion on their part, because we had understood since October 1925 
that the Department of Justice could not investigate such civic mat- 
ters, civil matters, as communism or any other subversive forces; 
that anything they did would be sub rosa. Therefore, we were sort 
of on our own. 

The project was short-lived due to consternation in the ranks. Too 
many people wanted to drive the buggy and it wound up getting no 
place. 

Mr. Whitley. You are not suggesting that the Department of 
Justice or any branch of it had anything to do with this proposed 
revival ? 

Mr. Gardner. I definitely said it did not. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. It was purely a private project? 

Mr. Gardner. Surely. During the war it had the support of 
the Department of Justice. Our enterprise did not. 

Mr. Whitley. That old, war-time organization, has been dead for 
many years, has it not? 

Mr. Gardner. It went out of existence when the — shortly after 
the war ended. 



4048 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, have you represented to any persons 
when these hearings started that you were in a position to fur- 
nish confidential information? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You sort of held yourself out around here as an 
inside tipster on the affairs of this committee ? 

Mr. Gardner. Hardly. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it not a fact that a week ago, when this com- 
mittee resumed its hearings, you told two reporters you could give 
them a good story, and you stated that Congressman Allen was 
going to be appointed to this committee to fill the vacancy caused by 
Mr. Healey's resignation? 

Mr. Gardner. That is common talk on the hill. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you present that as inside or confidential in- 
formation or did you just repeat it 

Mr. Gardner. I repeated it. It is common talk. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not offer that as a tidbit 

Mr. Gardner. There was nothing confidential about it, was there? 

Mr. Whitley. Was it at that time? 

Mr. Gardner. I do not see why it would be. 

Mr. Whitley. Was it being discussed at that time? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. What was that date? 

Mr. Gardner. About a week ago. 

Mr. Whitley. About a week ago. 

Mr. Thomas. What day. have you got the day ? 

Mr. Whitley. That was the 16th. 

Mr. Thomas. Is that the day you mentioned it to the two reporters? 

Mr. Gardner. The day the hearings started, Mr. Thomas. 

Mr. Thomas. I see. 

Mr. Gardner. On Wednesday, I believe the 16th, was not that right? 

Mr. Whitley. That is right. Now, is it not true that you also 
handed out some so-called or alleged inside tips around here on a 
good story to the effect that some big patriotic groups were going to 
file an injunction suit to stop the work of this committee? 

Mr. Gardner. That is not verbatim, but practically words to the 
effect ; I said that I had heard — I will repeat that — that there had been 
lawyers retained in Washington to file some form of civil action 
against the Dies committee. 

Mr. Whitley. Where did you hear that, or from whom? 

Mr. Gardner. I heard that in a lunchroom. 

Mr. Whitley. In a lunchroom; you just overheard a conversation? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes; and in repeating it to the reporters I told them 
that if I heard any more to substantiate that I would let them know. 
One of the chaps is this fellow here [indicating], Humphreys. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you told them the story was not 
quite ready to break yet, but you would keep them advised? 

Mr. Gardner. In other words, it was not a confidential tip. par- 
ticularly. It was something that was unconfirmed and I advanced it 
on that basis, and if I heard any more it would be interesting, surely. 

Mr. Whitley. You say you have never represented to anyone, di- 
rectly or indirectly, that you had any inside sources of information? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Insofar as this committee is concerned ? 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4049 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it not a fact that you also informed certain parties 
around the hearing here, or in connection with the hearing, that Fritz 
Kuhn and General Krivitsky were going to be witnesses before this 
committee? 

Mr. Gardner. I did not know that. 

Mr. Whitley. That was just a speculation on your part? 

Mr. Gardner. I did not make the statement. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not make the statement ? 

Mr. Gardner. No; I did not make the statement. 

Mr. Whitley. What was your reference to those two individuals? 

Mr. Gardner. I never made reference to them. On Wednesday 
morning, the 16th of this month, at 20 minutes of 10 in Mr. Dies' pri- 
vate ofliee. I asked him who was going to be on the mat this morning, 
and he said I would know at 10 o'clock. 

Mr. Whitley. And you did not tell any one that, by way of a 
prediction — that Fritz Kuhn and General Krivitsky were going to 
be called '. 

Mr. Gardner. Hardly that, when Walter Winchell published it a 
month ago. that Krivitsky was going to be here. 

Mr. Whitley. And when Kuhn did come into the room a few 
minutes later to take the stand, did you advise any one, "I told 
3 7 ou so," by way of confirming the inside information that you had 
given out? 

Mr. Gardner. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. Not to your knowledge? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it not a fact that you gave out the story as inside 
information to a columnist in Washington to the effect that Con- 
gressman Allen was going to be appointed to the vacancy on this 
committee? 

The Chairman. What columnist? 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Robert Allen, of the Washington Merry-Go- 
Round. 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not give that out as confidential informa- 
tion from the committee? 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question at this 
point. Mr. Gardner, have you seen Mr. Allen to talk to within the 
past 2 weeks ? 

Mr. Gardner. Mr. Thomas, I would not know Mr. Allen if I saw 
him. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you made any attempt to contact Mr. Allen 
in the past 2 weeks? 

Mr. Gardner. No; I do not know him. I have no basis to ap- 
proach him. There is nothing I could approach him on, because I 
have nothing in common with him. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know Mr. Pearson ? 

Mr. Gardner. Drew Pearson? 

Mr. Thomas. Yes. 

Mr. Gardner. Not personally. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you contacted him in the past 2 weeks? 



4050 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gardner. No; I have never contacted Drew Pearson. I know 
who he is. I know something of his background, and I know some- 
thing of his writings, but I do not know anything about him par- 
ticularly and, as far as meeting him and talking with him are con- 
cerned, I have been in Washington 18 years and you get to know 
who's who, but you do not always meet them. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, did you testify this morning just a 
few minutes ago in executive session that you would still be in- 
terested in securing a position as investigator with this committee? 

Mr. Gardner. A few minutes ago; yes. 

Mr. AVhitley. And at that time you were questioned, and you 
stated that you had no connections of any kind, present or past, 
which would prevent you from serving the best interests of this 
committee. 

Mr. Gardner. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. You stated that you had no connections of any 
kind, past or present, with the German- American Bund. 

Mr. Gardner. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Or with any Nazi or Fascist groups, and specifically 
you stated you had no connections with Mr. Pelley or his Silver 

Shirts? 

Mr. Gardner. I have nothing to do with Mr. Pelley or his Silver 

Shirts. 

Mr. Whitley. I have some telegrams here, Mr. Garner. Here is 
a telegram dated March 9, 1939, from Asheville, N. C, addressed to 
Fraser Gardner, Emerson 0130. Washington, I). C. 

Do you know that phone number? 

Mr." Gardner. That is my phone number. 

Mr. Whitley. The telegram reads : 

Check mailed you today. Our friend will contact you and Dave Monday. 

Signed "Skyland Press." 

Will you explain that telegram to the committee, Mr. Gardner? 

Mr. Gardner. Surely. An attorney in Washington asked me to 
conduct some research work for the Skyland Press organization; 
I do not know whether it is a corporation or not, to be frank. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the Skyland Press? 

Mr. Gardner. I presume it is a publishing organization; I do not 
know. I have never been there. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, it is Mr. Pelley 's publishing 
corporation, is it not? 

Mr. Gardner. I have never seen anything to that effect. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether that is Mr. Pelley's. 

Mr. Gardner. I do not ; because I have never seen it. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was the attorney who requested you to conduct 
some investigation for the Skyland Press? 

Mr. Gardner. A former assistant to the Attorney General in 
charge of espionage during the war, David Babp. 

Mr. Whitley. Is he a Washington attorney? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. He asked you to conduct some investigation or 
research \ 

Mr. Gardner. It did not necessarily come under the category of 
investigation, but research work. 

Mr. Whitley. Research work for the Skyland Pro- '. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4051 



Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Of Asheville, N. C? 

Mi'. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And did you conduct thai research? 

Mr. Gardner. Surely. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of the research? 

Mr. Gardner. Immigration. 

Mr. Whitley. Immigration? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you sent them the results of your research? 

Mr. Gardner. Well, quite frequently I passed that to Mr. Babp. 

Mr. Whitley. Then this telegram has to do with your remunera- 
tion for that work? 

Mr. Gardner. Surely. 

The Chairman. As I understand, he did not know Mr. Pelley was 
connected with it. and he had no connection with Mr. Pelley. 

Mr. Whitley. That is right. He had so testified under oath on two 
occasions. What was the amount of that check, do you recall? 

Mr. Gardner. What was the date of it ? 

Mr. Whitley. The telegram is dated Asheville, N. C, 3-9-39. 

Mr. Gardner. I am not sure, hut I would say somewhere between 
$50 and $75. I am not sure. 

Mr. Whitley. And you turned the results of -your research over to 
Mr. Babp \ 

Mr. Gardner. I do not know about that particular date. I say at 
times I did. 

Mr. Whitley. At times you did? 

Mr. Gardner. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know in this instance whether you turned 
it over to him or direct to the Sky land Press ; you do not recall ? 

Mr. Gardner. I do not think I ever did send anything to them down 
there. They were quite frequently interested in knowing the trend of 
immigration legislation: the number of persons migrating to this 
country, and what port of entry they might have had ; their nationality ; 
and a good deal of the research was conducted in line with the many, 
many immigration measures that were dropped in in the past year. 

Mr. Whitley. As far as this particular telegram is concerned, you 
do not remember specifically what the research was, except that it was 
along that line, and you conducted the research at the request of Mr. 
David Babp. a Washington attorney, who represents the Skyland 
Press ? 

Mr. Gardner. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. How do you spell Mr. Babp's name? 

Mr. Gardner. B-a-b-p. 

Mr. Whitley. And you do not recall whether you turned the resnlts 
of that research over to him or sent it to them directly? 

Mr. Gardner. Not at that particular time. It is of no importance 
as long as they got it and I got paid for it. 

Mr. Whitley. In any event, this had to do with a check which they 
sent you for that research ? 

The Chairman. Is that the only connection he ever had with the 
Skyland Press or Pelley \ 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know the identity of any of the officers or 
individuals connected with the Skyland Press? 



4052 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gardner. No. The money order was signed, if I remember 
correctly, Talpey. 

Mr. Whitley. How do you spell Talpey ? 

Mr. Gardner. I believe T-a-1-p-e-y. 

Mr. Whitley. But you were just working for the Skyland Press; 
you did not know what they did or who their connections were? 

Mr. Gardner. Well, it is in line with my general activities. If 
someone on the Hill asks me to do something, I would go ahead and 
do it. It is income. The request was not unusual. There was not 
anything unethical about it or illegal. 

Mr. Whitley. But you did not know the identity of your client? 

Mr. Gardner. Xo. I do not know who the officers of that corpora- 
tion are, if it is a corporation. I have done a lot of legal research 
for lawyers, and I did not ask. who their clients were. 

Mr. Whitley. Another telegram dated Asheville, N. C, May 17, 
addressed to Fraser Gardner, 3224 Wisconsin Avenue NW. ; Emerson 
0430, Washington, D. C: 

Detained here until Thursday night. 

Signed "W. D." 

Do you know who "W. D." is? 

Mr. Gardner. No; I do not. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, it is William Dudley Pelley, 
and you know it, Mr. Gardner. 

Mr. Gardner. Xo; I do not know it. 

Mr. Whitley. You have just testified you did not know the iden- 
tity of any one connected with the Skyland Press. 

Mr. Gardner. But I do not know that. 

Mr. Whitley. The return address on this telegram is "Skyland 
Press," and the telegram is signed "W. D." 

Mr. Thomas. What is the date of that telegram? 

Mr. Whitley. It is dated May 17, 1939. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you mean to say you do not know from whom 
that telegram came when you received it May 17, 1939? 

Mr. Gardner. I am not sure, Mr. Thomas. I know that there are 
an awfully large number of people connected with that organization, 
and I do not know what they are. 

Mr. Thomas. How many telegrams do you get in the course of a 
day? 

Mr. Gardner. In the course of a day I do not get many. 

Mr. Thomas. You do not get many. Here is a telegram signed 
"W. D." You must know who W. D. is. Be frank about it. 

Mr. Gardner. I am not sure. 

Mr. Thomas. Who do you think it was? 

Mr. Gardner. Well, it would be any one of a dozen people down 
there. 

Mr. Thomas. Name some of those others whom it might have 
been. 

Mr. Gardner. It could be anyone. Their officers use different 
names to my knowledge, which I found out. 

Mr. Whitley. You said you did not know any of their officers. 

Mr. Gardner. I do not know them. I have never met the officers 
at Asheville, N. C. I have never been in Asheville. 

Mr. Whitley. Or met them at any place. This says, ''Detained 
here until Thursday night." 



ago« 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4053 

Mr. Gardner. I met the follow that draws these cartoons on 
Liberation. 

Mr. Whitley. What does that mean, "Detained here until Thurs- 
day night/' Why was W. D. having to advise you that he was 
detained at Asheville until Thursday night if you did not know who 
he was or anvthing about him. 

Mr. Gardner. If I recall correctly, there was some emissary of 
that organization coming to Babp's office for a conference relative to 
the final wind-up of the immigration bills in Congress. 

Mr. Whitley. Why did he wire you directly if you did not know 
him or anything about him? Why did he not wire Mr. Babp if that 
was the case? If he was going to see Mr. Babp why did he not wire 
him that he was detained at Asheville? 

Mr. Gardner. It is possible for the organization to be very much 
abreast of any of my activities on the immigration work and they 
would wire me direct. There is nothing unusual about that, that I 
could see. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not know any of them personally. You 
just knew that you were getting some material for the Sky land Press. 
Why would the Skyland Press send you a telegram like this if you 
did not know any of the officers? It is not signed "Skyland Press." 
It is signed, "W. D.," and the return address in the lower left-hand 
corner is "Skyland Press." 

Mr. Gardner. May I complete something that I started a moment 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Gardner. I met the chap who draws these cartoons on the front 
of Liberation. I have had occasion to go into the pressrooms and 
read Liberation. I have never seen the Skyland Press. 

Mr. Whitley. The pressrooms where? 

Mr. Gardner. Here. 

Mr. Whitley. Here ? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I did not suggest you had seen Skyland Press. 

Mr. Gardner. Just let me finish now. I never did know what the 
connection was, but I had an idea that there was a connection, as time 
marched on. 

Mr. Whitley. A connection between what ? 

Mr. Gardner. Between Liberation and the Skyland Press. 

Mr. Whitley. You began to suspect that? 

Mr. Gardner. It says in Liberation that it is the Pelley Publishers. 
It does not say anything about Skyland Press. 

Mr. Whitley. But you began to suspect that maybe there might 
be a connection? 

Mr. Gardner. Well, I met the chap who draws the cartoons on the 
front of Liberation and he used several different initials and names, 
and I have talked with him on one or two occasions. 

Mr. Whitley. What was his name? 

Mr. Gardner. Cumings. 

Mr. Whitley. Cummings? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Would there be an occasion for Mr. Cummings to 
wire you, "Detained here until Thursday night," and sign it "W. D."? 

Mr. Gardner. It could be. 

94931— 39— vol. 6 23 



4054 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. It could be ? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Whitley, I had not finished my questions. 

Mr. Whitley. I beg your pardon. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Gardner, at the same time you said that it might 
be any one of a dozen ? 

Mr. Gardner. Because I understand 

Mr. Thomas. Who are some of the others ? 

Mr. Gardner. I do not know their names, Mr. Thomas, but I un- 
derstand there are something like 30 employees in the organization. 

Mr. Thomas. What organization 1 

Mr. Gardner. In this Skyland Press. 

Mr. Thomas. And it might be any 1 of those 30 ? 

Mr. Gardner. I do not know., I have never been down there. I do 
not know the people. 

Mr. Thomas. When you received this telegram signed "W. D." 
what did you do about it ? 

Mr. Gardner. I looked where it came from and I figured it was 
another somebody from that organization. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you not make any inquiry as to who it might be ? 

Mr. Gardner. I was not concerned. There is not anything for any- 
body to be concerned about. I just knew from one point to another 
point ; and the first point I recognized was that I am being advised 
somebody was coming to see me. 

Mr. Thomas. And that person did come to see you I 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Who was that person? 

Mr. Gardner. Hy Cummings, the fellow who draws the cartoons 
on Liberation. 

Mr. Thomas. And you concluded he sent the telegram signed 
"W. D."? 

Mr. Gardner. I was reading the Secret Armies here a week ago 

Mr. Thomas. Never mmd about the Secret Armies at this time. 

Mr. Gardner. It is in relation to the same thing. It is in relation 
to this. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you ask him whether he had sent that tele- 
gram to you? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Thomas. You did not make any inquiry of him as to whether 
he sent the telegram to you? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know to this day who sent you that telegram ? 

Mr. Gardner. No ; I just knew it came from the Skyland Press. 

Mr. Whitley. Another telegram, Mr. Gardner, dated March 24, 
1939, at Asheville, N. C, addressed to Fraser Gardner, 3224 Wis- 
consin Avenue NW., Washington, D. C. : 

Important visitors here. Cannot leave before Sunday night. Pennsylvania 
appointment is for Thursday anyhow. Sending your package to home special 
delivery. 

(Signed) W. D. P. 

The return address is 4810 Skyland Press. Do you have any idea 
who W. D. P. might be? 

Mr. Gardner. In the connection it is only logical that that would 
be W. D. Pelley. It could be many people, but in the connection 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4055 

Mr. Whitley. That would be a reasonable assumption, would it 
nor '. As a matter of fact, you know it is William Dudley Pelley, don't 
you. Mr. Gardner? Von are under oath, recall. 

Mr. Gardner. I know that it is. 

Mr. Whitley (reading) : 

Important visitors here. Cannot leave before Sunday night. Pennsylvania 
appointment is for Thursday anyhow. 

What appointment? Why is he wiring you about an appointment? 

Mr. Gardner. Immigration. 

Mr. Whitley. Immigration? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes; refugees: I think you have seen it written up 
iu Liberation any number of times. 

Mr. Whiley. But you still say you do not know anyone connected 
with the Skyland Press. 

Mr. Gardner. I do not remember that particular telegram. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know Mr. Pelley? 

Mr. Gardner. Surely. 

Mr. Whitley. You say you know him and you have done work for 
Mr. Pelley \ 

Mr. Gardner. Immigration work. 

Mr. Whitley. Immigration work? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Research work? 

Mr. Gardner. It started off 

Mr. Whitley. Why did you not say so a few minutes ago? 

Mr. Gardner. What do you mean "say so"? I did the work foi 
the Skyland Press. If he has got his hands in that I have nothing 
to do with that ; that is possible. 

Mr. Whitley. You know, as a matter of fact, that 'he has his 
hands in it, do you not? 

Mr. Gardner. I am becoming very much convinced of that. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the package that he was sending you special 
delivery, to which he refers here? 

Mr. Gardner. What is the date of the telegram? 

Mr. Whitley. March 24, 1939. 

Mr. Thomas. Be very frank, Mr. Gardner, because it is going to go 
hai'd with you, and you might as well make it as easy for yourself as 
you possibly can. Be very frank. That is my suggestion to you. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the package referred to in Mr. Pelley's tele- 
gram to you of March 24, 1939? 

Mr. Gardner. I do not remember, Mr. Whitley. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not recall ? 

Mr. Gardner. No ; I do not, at that particular date. 

Mr. Whitley. Has he been sending you packages rather regularly ? 

Mr. Gardner. He sent me a book, which I have, and would be glad 
to bring down for you or send for it. That came as a package. 

Mr. Whitley. As a package ? 

Mr. Gardner. And it was autographed. I believe the title name 
of it was "The Door to Revelation." 

Mr. Whitley. That was a large book? 

Mr. Gardner. No; normal size, standard. 

Mr. Whitley. You think that might be the package referred to? 

Mr. Gardner. I am not sure. 



4056 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. You apparently were expecting the package, or he 
would not have mentioned it. He did not describe the package. He 
merely says, "Sending- your package to home, special delivery." Were 
you waiting for a package, expecting one ? What was the package. Mr. 
Gardner? Tell us. 

Mr. Gardner, I think I told you I was not sure. If I was sure, I 
would tell you. I do not mind telling you anything. 

Mr. Whitley. You have not had many packages from him. Tell us 
what some of them contained. You said one of them was an auto- 
graphed book from Mr. Pelley. 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. And lie sent me copies of everything they have 
ever published. 

Mr. Whitley. Copies of Liberation ? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Copies of pamphlets ? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. I still have them. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he send them to you in quantities for distri- 
bution ? 

Mr. Gardner. No. I have never distributed anything for William 
Dudley Pelley, the Liberation, the Silver Shirts, or any organization 
in America. 

Mr. Whitley. Why was this particular package being sent special 
delivery to your home ? Is there any reason for that ? 

Mr. Gardner. I do not recall. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not recall ? 

Mr. Gardner. I really do not recall. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he in the habit of sending packages to you 
special delivery? 

Mr. Gardner. That is the way they do things. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the way they do things ? 

Mr. Gardner. Special delivery, or telephone or telegraph. 

Mr. Whitley. High speed ? 

Mr. Gardner. More or less. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, this telegram : "Important visitors here. Can- 
not leave before Sunday night Pennsylvania." Does that mean he is 
leaving on a Pennsylvania train ? 

Mr. Gardner. I do not know. 

Mr. Whitley. "Appointment is for Thursday, anyhow." Appoint- 
ment with whom? What was the appointment he was referring to? 

Mr. Gardner. I really do not know. 

Mr. Whitley. You had an appointment with him, some appoint- 
ment you had made to see him? 

Mr. Gardner. I never made an appointment to see him, to my 
knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he make an appointment to see you? 

Mr. Gardner. I have met him in the office of the attorney. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Babp? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitney. And you have never had an appointment with him 
yourself ? 

Mr. Gardner. A personal appointment? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Gardner. No; never saw him on any occasion unless someone 
else was present. 



«,I 



iistri- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4057 

Mr. Whitley. Yon have had an appointment with him? 

Mr. Gardner. No private appointments. 

Mr. Whitley. The fact that someone else was present still would 
not take it out of the category of an appointment, would it, Mr. 
Gardner '. 

Mr. Gardner. But it lias a great deal to do with the slut us of t he- 
appointment. I never had a private conference or appointment with 
William D. Pelley. 

Mr. Whitley. You say you have had no conference 

Mr. Gardner (interposing). No; I say I have had a conversation 
with him. 

Mr. Whitley. And the statement in this telegram with reference 
to appointments being for Tuesday ; do you know what that refers to? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Or anything about it. You do not recall what the 
package was that he thought was important enough to wire you he 
was sending to you special delivery? 

Mr. Gardner. Well, he sends me copies of books. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Gardner. And usually lets me know 

The Chairman. Does he always wire you in advance of sending 
them ? 

Mr. Whitley. Does he always wire in advance? 

Mr. Gardner. The Liberation; he sends me copies of the Libera- 
tion, special delivery ; 9 times out of 10 I do not even open them 
for 2 or 3 days. 

Mr. Whitley. And in all cases you say you get the literature that 
way ? 

Mr. Gardner. Well, I imagine in many cases, that is possible. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. You said a moment ago you had gotten some 
letters. 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. When they sent the literature ? 

Mr. Gardner. But I don't subscribe to it. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever subscribe to it ? 

The Chairman (interposing). Has he written for it under a pen 
name ? 

Mr. Whitley. Have you contributed any material to the publica- 
tion ? 

Mr. Gardner. No; I don't write for it under any pen name. 

Mr. Whitley. I see, but you think this W. P. might be William D. 
Pelley? 

Mr. Gardner. It is more than likely. 

Mr. Whitley. But you don't really know? 

Mr. Gardner. Frankly, I don't really know. 

Mr. Whitley-. It could very easily be? 

Mr. Gardner. Surely. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, the previous telegram signed 
"W. D." could easily be William D. Pelley? 

Mr. Gardner. I would agree it could be. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever receive any telegram from Mr. Pelley? 

Mr. Gardner. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley'. Not to your knowledge ? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 



4058 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. You may have? 

Mr. Gardner. No. None that I could truthfully say were from 
William D. Pelley. 

The Chairman. Couldn't you be sure about it? 

Mr. Gardner. Well, I am trying to be ; I don't know. 

The Chairman. You mean to tell me and to tell this committee that 
when you got a telegram from a man who you had known and had 
talked to, William D. Pelley, and got a telegram from William D. 
Pelley, from Asheville, N. C, you did not know whether it was sent 
by Pelley? 

Mr. Gardner. I will give you a practical answer 

The Chairman. Do you know whether that is a fact ? 

Mr. Gardner. Do you mind if I answer it this way : I have received 
telegrams from down there signed such as this "W. D." and have 
learned the next day or tomorrow be reminded that he was thousands 
of miles away. 

The Chairman. You mean you don't know? 

Mr. Gardner. No ; I do not, 

The Chairman. Do you know where Pelley is? 

Mr. Gardner. I do not. 

The Chairman. Neither does this committee. All right, go ahead. 

Mr. Whitley. Here is another telegram, Mr. Gardner, dated March 
1, Asheville, N. C, addressed to Frasier Gardner, phone Emerson 0430, 
Washington, D. C. That is your phone number, is it not? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

The Chairman. Let us have quiet so we can hear. 

Mr. Whitley (reading) : 

Please call at Postal Telegraph, Washington Building, at 10 o'clock tomorrow 
morning for money transfer. Sorry about delay. It won't happen again. 

Mr. Gardner. I was there. 

Mr. Whitley. Signed "W. D. P.". Could that be Pelley? 

Mr. Gardner. I presume that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Don't you know it is ? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't know any more than you ; I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. But you presume it is? 

Air. Gardner. I presume that it was. 

Mr. Whitley. You presume that it was. 

Mr. Gardner. After the information that I have I presume that it 
was; I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. What did it mean "transfer of money" ? 

Mr. Gardner. Skyland Press. 

Mr. Whitley. Skyland Press? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Inserted as the return address on this telegram 
"charged Skyland Press." 

You still don't know the Skyland Press had anything to do with 
Pelley? 

Mr. Gardner. I still don't know — wait a minute. Whether it had 
anything to do with Pelley, I am convinced that he was connected 
with it now; but I am sure, I say that I am sure that it has no con- 
nection with the Liberation. There is a Pelley's organization; I 
don't know whether it is a corporation or not, 

Mr. Whitley. How much money was sent to you by this money 
transfer ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4059 

Mr. Gardner. What is the date of thai I 

Mr. Whitley. March 1. 

Mr. Gardner. It was about the time of the other. I said $50 or 
$75; I presume it was about that amount. 

Mr. Whitley. What was that money for? 

Mr. Gardner. Work that had been done on the research, immigra- 
tion research. 

Mr. Whitley. For Mr. Pelley? 

Mr. Gardner. For the Skyland Press. 

Mr. Whitley. For the Skyland Press? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley (reading) : 

Sorry about delay. 

Had you gotten in touch with the Skyland Press or Mr. Pelley 
about the delay ( 

Mr. Gardner. No. I recall telling the attorney that I did not 
understand anyone who wanted work clone and not pay for it on 
time. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. And he was apologizing for it ? 

Mr. Gardner. Somebody was. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. "It wont happen again." Has it happened 
again. Mr. Gardner? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't think so. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't think so ? 

Mr. Gardner. Xo. 

Mr. Whitley. How often could you get money on checks or trans- 
fer, money transfer, from the Skyland Press? 

Mr. Gardner. I haye gotten it seyeral times since March. 

Mr. Whitley. Seyeral times? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. A regular salary? 

Mr. Gardner. Not exactly. 

Mr. Whiti ey. Not a regular salary \ 

Mr. Gardner. Mostly on a fee basis; that is the way I do work, on 
a fee basis. 

Mr. Whitley. You transmitted a bill ? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Or sent a statement? 

Mr. Gardner. No; I haye never sent a bill in my life to them. 

Mr. Whitley. How do they know what your fee is ? 

Mr. Gardner. On whatever arrangements are made with the at- 
torney. 

Mr. Whitley. You have talked to a representative of the Skyland 
Press for the work done and what the remuneration would be? 

Mr. Gardner. Mr. Cummings made a statement to me when I saw 
him several months ago and asked me if the financial arrangement 
was satisfactory. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Gardner. And I told him that I did not think it was enough 
money. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the financial arrangement? 

Mr. Gardner. Well, it was approximately $50 a week. 

Mr. Whitley. $50. 



4060 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gardner. Approximately. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. Sometimes maybe a little more and sometimes 

less? 

Mr. Gardner. According to what was accomplished. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that money sent every week or once a month? 

Mr. Gardner. Approximately each week. 

Mr. Whitley. And how was it sent, Mr. Gardner? 

Mr. Gardner. Postal Telegraph or Western Union. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they ever mail a check? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. It was wired to you? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How long has that arrangement been in effect ? 

Mr. Gardner. Oh, since about the first of March. 

Mr. Whitley. About, since about the first of March. 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. T see. And you still don't know that the telegram 
came from Mr. Pelley? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't want to say that it did because as I told 
you- 



Mr. Whitley (interposing). To the best of your knowledge. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact don't you know the telegram 
came from him? 

Mr. Gardner. As I started to say, I got a telegram and learned the 
next day after, or a day or two afterwards, that he was 3,800 miles 
from here. So, I am not sure when I say that but what somebody 
is authorized down there to sign his initials, such as secretaries sign 
Congressmen's letters. 

Mr. Whitley. When they do that it comes from the Congressman 
just the same. 

Mr. Gardner. Well, we will say in that connection they have 

Mr. Voorhis. You don't know whose initials they are? 

Mr. Gardner. As I say, I think it is logical to believe it is Pelley. 

Mr. Voorhis. You know W. D. Pelley ; don't you know it was from 
him positively? 

Mr. Gardner. I want to be just as honest in answering the ques- 
tions, and I would like to have honest questions — I do not mean to 
say you are not asking honest questions, but I would like to clarify 
it in this way : They have got 25 or 30 employees down there and 
I don't know their names and I don't know who is authorized down 
there to sign his name. 

Mr. Voorhis. How do you know they have got these people down 
there? 

Mr. Gardner. The attorney told me that. I asked him how large the 
organization Avas and he said a $50,000 plant that employed 25 or 30 
people; that it was formerly a bank building; that it was a going con- 
cern, and so forth. I have never seen the place. In fact, I have 
never been to Asheville, N. C. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Whitley. 

Mr. Whitley. You mentioned a moment ago you had received a 
communication from Mr. Pelley and you had assumed it was from 
him and the next day you found out that he was, I believe you said, 
thousands of miles away. 

Mr. Gardner. That lie wasn't at the particular place. 



QN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4001 

Mr. Whitley. How did you know where Mr. Pelley was? 

Mi. Gardner. The attorney told me. 

Mr. Whitley. The attorney told you so? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes; I told him I had gotten a wire from him, and 
he said, -Where did it come from ?" I said, "Asheville." And he said 
"He is supposed to be—" I think he said Portland, Oreg., or 
Olympia, Wash., or some other place. 

Mr. Whitley. Who made the arrangements with you for this em- 
ployment at approximately $50 a week? 

Mr. Gardner. Cummings; H-i-a-1, or H-i-l-e; I don't know. 

The Chairman. Does Cummings stay in Asheville? 

Mr. Gardner. I presume he does. 

The Chairman. Is he connected with Dr. Brinkley of Del Rio ? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't believe he is. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether he is connected with him? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't believe so. I should say I don't know. I 
know he draws cartoons. 

Mr. Whitley. Is he the cartoonist for the Liberation? 

Mr. Gardner. I am not sure how you spell his first name. 

Mr. Whitley. He is the cartoonist for the Liberation? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes ; that I know. I definitely know that but I really 
don't know his initials. 

Mr. Whitley. He employed you to do research work for the Sky- 
land Press. 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Then it was not the attorney, Mr. Babp, 
who made the arrangement? 

Mr. Gardner. The attorney sat right there while the arrangements 
were made. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Gardner. Acting in the capacity of my attorney as well, I 
presume, as their attorney. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Gardner. And seeing that everything went all right, which it 
did, and he made tentative arrangements with me, and I asked Mr. 
Babp what he thought 

Mr. Whitley. Was there a signed contract? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Just a verbal contract? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Made approximately the first of March? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. In fact, I asked for a written contract ; I asked 
for a written contract. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. Mr. Cummings wouldn't give it to you? 

Mr. Gardner. Well, he said they didn't do things that way. 

Mr. Whitley. But you have received approximately $50 since 
about 

Mr. Gardner (interposing). No. 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). March of this year? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. As the result of that employment? 

Mr. Gardner. Approximately; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. As a result of that employment by Mr. Cummings? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 



4062 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Who von knew 



Mr. Gardner (interposing). Just a minute 

Mr. Whitley (continuing). As a representative, a cartoonist for 
the Liberation? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You didn't know that? 

Mr. Gardner. I never saw the man before. In fact, I never saw 
the Liberation until about 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). You knew he represented 

Mr. Gardner (interposing). I knew he was a representative of the 
Skyland Press ; that is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Gardner. And sometime later I was advised — think within 
6 weeks — thai he was cartoonist for the Liberation magazine. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he tell you or how did you find out ? 

Mr. Gardner. No; I ask H-i-a-1 or H-a-i-1, whichever it is. 

Mr. Whitley. Anyway, his name appears as the cartoonist. 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. But he did make the contract with you 

Mr. Gardner (interposing). He represented himself to me as rep- 
resenting the Skyland Press, and just to negotiate a final contract, 
with me, but not on paper. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Gardner. Although I asked for a written contract. 

Mr. Whitley. It was a verbal agreement. 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Gardner. And about 2 months later he asked me what I 
thought of it. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, who is Mr. David Mayne, 229 Bond 
Building, Washington, D. C ? 

Mr. Gardner. David Mayne, to my knowledge, outside of state- 
ments in this hearing, to my knowledge, is a pensioned veteran due 
to service-connected disabilities ; who is a former prohibition investi- 
gator under Dr. Doran. 

I believe he was likewise a New York State trooper; that is what 
he has told me — that is all I have, from what he tells me — a New 
York State trooper; a Federal prohibition agent. That is all I 
remember correctly. I believe lie made several other statements 
about connections with municipal governments, but I don't remem- 
ber them and I wouldn't want to try to give them. 

Mr. Whitley. Where is he employed \ 

Mr. Gardner. His present employment, to the best of my knowl- 
edge, and I am not very definite about it because he is very cagey 
about such things as that 



v*-' 



The Chairman. He is connected witli Pelley, isn't he, or wasn't he? 

Mr. Gardner. Not to my knowledge. 

The Chairman. He was never present in Babp's office with Cum- 
mings and you at any time? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

The Chairman. You are very sure about that ? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

The Chairman. You have absolutely no knowledge of whether he 
was connected with Pellev? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4063 

Mr. Gardner. I do not know he is connected with Pelley. 

Tin> Chairman. May I ask, Mr. Secretary, if that is not the man 
who tried many times to become an investigator for this committee^ 

Mr. Strepunq. He approached the committee last year, on 8 or 
10 different occasions, stating he had inside information concerning 
certain communistic activities. 

The Chairman. And suggestions to make to the committee? 

Mr. Stripling. Yes. 

The Chairman. Yon might as well read the telegram in the record, 
at this point, Mr. Whitley. 

Mr. Whitley. The telegram is dated June 20, 1939, Asheville, 
N. C, addressed David Mayne, care of David Babp, 229 Bond Build- 
ing, Washington, D. C. 

That is the address you gave as your business address? 

Mr. Gardner. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Apparently Mr. Mayne has the same address? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't know that. 

Mr. Whttlet. You don't know that. 

Mr. Gardner. I have seen him there I should say 20 times. 

Mr. Whitley. The telegram reads: 

/ Beecham arrive sometime tonight. Was delayed until 7 o'clock this morning. 

That is signed "Talpey." Do you know Mr. Talpey? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know who he is? 

Mr. Gardner. No; only this, that he has apparently filled some 
official position with that organization, the Skyland Press, because 
I received several Postal Telegraph money transfers signed by Talpey. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. He is an official 

Mr. Gardner (interrupting). I presume that he is; I don't know. 
I have never met him. 

Mr. Whitley. The telegram bears the return of the Sky land Press. 
Who is Beecham? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't know the gentleman. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know him? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know Mr. Mayne was trying to get a posi- 
tion with the committee as investigator? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You did not know that? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You know 

Mr. Gardner (interposing). If you don't mind my making a per- 
sonal reference to this : I don't have anything to do with the fellow. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not have? 

Mr. Gardner. No ; I don't like him ; I don't trust him. 

I would like to make a little clarification of the address, and this 
is a matter of legal record, by the way. 

I operated the Medical and Dental Association, in the Metropolitan 
Bank Building; I bought it out; I was in partners with an attorney, 
who is still in the Metropolitan Bank Building, and I bought the deal 
out completely from this attorney and have never — Babp was there 
for a number of years, in connection with a lot of service groups, and 
I asked him if I could make it the headquarters of the Medical and 



4064 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Dental Association until such time as I could establish, or have 
established my own offices for the Medical and Dental Association, if 
I went ahead with it. 

It was a credit proposition for professional men; it was in the 
embryonic stage when I bought it out and didn't progress much past 
that, although it made a number of collections and issued credit re- 
ports, and the correspondence was at the office of David Babp, all of 
which I have copies. That originated in 1936, when I met with David 
Babp, in June or July of 1936. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the reason you used that office ? 

Mr. Gardner. I still use it. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Mr. Babp is attorney for or 
represents Mr. Pelley ? 

Mr. Gardner. I understand now he is. 

Mr. Whitley. You understand that he is? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. Wait just a minute. I had better put it this 
way, I understand that he did. I am not sure that he is now. 

Mr. Whitley. That he has to your knowledge? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes; sure — I am not sure that he is now : T think there 
has been some dissension between them, but I don't know; that is what 
I have heard. \ 

Mr. Whitley. He has represented him ? 

Mr. Gardner. I understand that he has acted in some way. 

Mr. Whitley. Here is another telegram, dated at Asheville, Julv 3, 
1939, addressed to B. D. Mayne, care David Babp. '229 Bond Building, 
Washington, D. C. It reads : 

Impossible to visit clown there before Friday. 

That was for Nashville. 

Can Atlanta furnish contact at plant in route home? Important. 

That is signed "Beecham." That is sent to Mr. Mayne. 

The Chairman. Can Atlanta furnish contact 

Mr. Whitley. This is not addressed to Mr. Gardner. 

The Chairman. I understand that it is not addressed to him. 

Mr. Whitley (reading) : 

Can Atlanta furnish contact at plant in route home? Important. 

The Chairman. What is the date of that ? 

Mr. Whitley. July 3, 1939. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Whitley. You stated a moment ago, I believe, that you did not 
know Beecham. 

Mr. Gardner. No ; I don't. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what his connections are? 

Mr. Gardner. No. I have seen a number of names, but I don't 
recall them; but I have seen a number of different names in connection 
with that organization. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he is employed with the 
organization ? 

Mr. Gardxkr. Well, I do not; I have never been down there; I have 
never been down there; I had no occasion to meet with their organi- 
zation. 

Mr. Whitley. You do know he uses the same address that you use? 

Mr. Gardner. No ; I do not know that he does that. I see him there 
but I don't know what arrangement he has. 









UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4Q65 



iiavg 



Mr. Whitley. Are von acquainted with Roy Zachary? 

Mi-. Gardner. I have met him. 

Mr. Whitley. You have met him? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Where? 

Mr. Gardner. T was introduced to him in Philadelphia. 

Mr. Whitley. When was that, approximately, Mr. Gardner? 

Mr. Gardner. Several months ago. 

Mr. Whitley. Several months ago? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. As much as 6 months? 

Mr. Gardner, Oh, yes — in the last 4 months, I think. 

Mr. Whitley. In the last 4 months? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the occasion of your meeting him? 

Mr. Gardner. I was introduced to him at the railroad station in 
Philadelphia. 

Mr. Whitley. By whom? 

Mr. Gardner. I wasn't introduced to him by anyone. 

Mr. Whitley. How did it happen that you met him at that time? 

Mr. Gardner. He was with a man in the station in Philadelphia 
and tame over to me and asked me if my name wasn't Gardner; and 
I said, "Yes. Why?" And he said: "A friend of mine over here 
said that you had been doing some work for the Skyland Press." 

I asked who he was. He said, "A friend of mine." 

I think that was on the occasion of the night of General Moseley — 
when he gave his last Philadelphia speech, and I presume that was 
why he was there. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was the friend? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't know the fellow. 

Mr. Whitley. Who pointed you out? 

Mr. Gardner. I didn't know the fellow. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know the fellow? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know who he was? 

Mr. Gardner. No. I had a somewhat similar experience 

Mr. Whitley (interposing.) This man said, "I am Roy Zachary." 

The Chairman. What station was this, the Thirtieth Street 
Station? 

Mr. Whitley. What station was it? 

Mr. Gardner. It was the Pennsy Station. 

Mr. Whitley. He came up to you 

Mr. Gardner. He came up to me and asked if my name was Gard- 
ner. "You are Gardner, aren't you?" I said, "Yes. Why?" And, 
he said, ''Well. I think you have done some work with the Skyland 
Press." And I said, "All right. How did you know who I was?" 
He said. "My friend told me who you were." 

Mr. Whitley. Could you see the friend? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

The Chairman. What were you doing in Philadelphia on that 
occasion? 

Mr. Gardner. It had nothing to do with this; it was purely politi- 
cal; something I was asked to do at Philadelphia, and had nothing 
to do with this at all. 

Mr. Whttley. Who is Roy Zachary? 



4086 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gardner. Connected with the Silver Shirts. 

Mr. Whitley. Silver Shirts? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what his position is? 

Mr. Gardner. I do not. 

Mr. Whitley. You have heard it ? 

Mr. Gardner. I have seen it stated since the hearing. 

Mr. Whitley. You know he is field marshal. 

Mr. Gardner. I have read it in the Liberation. 

Mr. Whitley. You have read it ? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. If Pelley says it in the Liberation, the probability 
is, you would assume it is true ? 

Mr. Gardner. I do not want to assume that Pelley writes every- 
thing in the Liberation. 

Mr. Whitley. You have read it, at least? 

Mr. Gardner. I have read it. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the nature of the conversation you had 
with Mr. Zachary ( 

Mr. Gardner. That was it. 

Mr. Whitley. When he came up to you and asked 30111* name? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that the only time you have seen him; that was 
the first meeting you had ever had ? 

Mr. Gardner. That was the only time I have seen him. 

Mr. Whitley. The only time ? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You have never seen him since ? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You hadn't seen him before that and haven't seen 
him since ? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. In Washington or elsewhere? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Here is a telegram dated April 3, 1939, Asheville, 
N. C, addressed to G. R. Nunness, South Hills Branch, No. 9 Oak 
Hurst Place, B-e-t-h-e-1-l-o-o-s, Allegheny County, Pittsburgh, Pa., 
and reads : 

Urgent ; have Roy, if there, advise Lloyd phoue Emerson 0430, Frasier, tonight 
regard leaving. 

That is signed "Carmichael," charged "Skyland Press." 
Do you know who Lloyd is ? 
Mr. Gardner. I haven't any idea. 
Mr. Whitley. You don't know who he is ? 
Mr. Gardner. I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. This Emerson, this phone number, Emerson 0430, is 
your telephone number ? 
Mr. Gardner. No. 
Mr. Whitley. It is not ? 
Mr. Gardner. 0430? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes; that is your phone? 
Mr. Gardner. Yes. 
Mr. Whitley. Your telephone number. 









ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4067 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The telegram read: 

Urgent; have Roy, if there, advise Lloyd phono Emerson 0430, Frasier, tonight 
regard leaving. 

You don't know who Lloyd is? 

Mr. Gardner. No; I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. Regarding what leaving? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't know; I have no idea what that is all about. 
He didn't call me, and I haven't any idea. I haven't any idea what 
he would have to advise me about, unless it was with regard to immi- 
gration, or something like that. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is Carmiehael? 

Mr. Gardner. I do not know who he is. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not ? 

Mr. Gardner. I really do not. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know G. R. Ninness? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether the Roy referred to here 
is Roy Zachary? 

Mr. Gardner. I do not know that it is, but I presume that it is. 

Mr. Whitley. You presume that it is? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And if the party you referred to here, Lloyd, did 
phone or try to phone you, you did not know about it ? 

Mr. Gardner. I did not. 

Mr. Whitley. If he called up, you did not know it? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't remember him calling. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't remember? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You think you would remember if he had called 
you? 

Mr. Gardner. I think I would have; I don't remember him calling. 

The Chairman. You don't deny that you had a telephone call from 
Pelley, that you have called Pelley back, do you ? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't do what ? 

The Chairman. You don't deny that you had a long-distance call 
from Pelley to you, and you to Pelley ? 

Mr. Gardner. Why, no. 

The Chairman. You have had such calls ? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes; certainly. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you had a number of calls 
passing between you, Mr. Gardner ? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

The Chairman. How many? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Would you say 50? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

The Chairman. Would you say 25? 

Mr. Gardner. Xo. 

The Chairman. How many? 

Mr. Gardner. I would say a half a dozen. 

The Chairman. A half a dozen calls? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 



4068 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Over what period? 

Mr. Gardner. Six months. 

The Chairman. In the past 6 months ? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

The Chairman. What were those calls ; what was the nature of the 
calls where you were called by Pelley or where you called Pelley? 

Mr. Gardner. Well, there was considerable controversy, I think 
3'ou recall, if you were in town during the refugee issue, that he wanted 
to know what was going on. He told me he had made connection 
in New York City with the fact that a number of immigrants were 
coining in, and refugees, that he claimed were illegal entries, and 
wouldn't I go into the facts; and I checked the figures from the De- 
partment of Labor here, and I got some information from the office 
of Mr. Reynolds, of North Carolina, and I got some information from 
Senator Wagner's office, and one or two others. 

I talked to him about that at least a half a dozen times, because 
there was considerable discussion here that refugees were being 
brought in regardless of the law, and he was very much interested 
in it, and he wanted me to find out whether that was right or wrong. 

The Chairman. I understood you to say that you hadn't known 
Mr. Pelley as long as 6 months. 

Mr. Gardner. No ; I didn't say that. 

The Chairman. When did you first meet Mr. Pelley ? 

Mr. Gardner. In March. 

The Chairman. In March? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes; I think that is about 6 months — 5 months. 

The Chairman. That was the only time you talked to Pelley about 
anything ? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you ever make any trips for Pelley, or for 
the Skyland Press? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

The Chairman. Who were the leaders or incorporators of the 
American Protective League? 

Mr. Gardner. Well, to my knowledge, Mr. Dies, I was employed — 
I was not one of the 

The Chairman. I know you were employed by them. 

Mr. Gardner. I was employed as executive director of the or- 
ganization and research director. It was formed by a fellow by 
the name of Spurgeon Beaver, a rehabilitation conciliator of the 
Department of Labor. 

The Chairman. You mean the revived? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

The Chairman. I am talking about the revived. 

Mr. Gardner. Oh, yes. I was a little too young for the other one. 
And a chap bv the name of Franklin J. Porter, who is now em- 
ployed by the Department of Labor in their D. C. Unemployment — 
or is it the national — it is the national organization. What is that 
unemployment service? He is one of the officers — officials — in that; 
and a woman who — I don't recall her last name; I did not meet 
hoi- — Virginia, who worked in the office with Porter. 

Mr. Thomas. Worked in what office? 

Mr. Gardner. What is the correct title of the Employment Service? 

The Chairman. U. S. Employment Service. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4069 

Mr. Gardner. He is with the U. S., not the D. C, but the U. S. 

She is in that office. I don't recall her name. 

Mr. Thomas. What Port or is this you refer to? 

Mr. Gardner. Franklin J. He is one of the officers down there. 

Mr. Thomas. He is an officer in this Employment Service? 

Mr. Gardner. He is today: yes. Mister — Congressman Hill, I be- 
lieve it was, investigated his status, his connection, with the American 
Protective League and Mr. Beaver, because he was under the im- 
pression they were disclosing Department of Labor figures to the 
American Protective League. There is a record of that. I have 
some clippings on it ; it is in the morgue of all of the newspapers. 
I just 

The Chairman. You just worked for the association? 

Mr. Gardner. And Robert Wise is counsel, formerly Special As- 
sistant Attorney General. I don't know whether you know him or 
not — Robert D. Wise. 

Mr. Thomas. Is he special counsel for the Attorney General now? 

Mr. Gardner. No; he was. He has gotten sort of out of that into 
law practice, and then into this. Then a fellow by the name of 
Carroll Emery, one of the past commanders of one of the American 
Legion Posts, was in town; a fellow by the name of Charles Price, 
who had been the bodyguard — one of the investigators of the 
A. P. L. and who had been the bodyguard of Evelyn Walsh McLean 
for 4 or 5 years or, rather, for Evelyn Walsh McLean, the daughter, 
and several others of like character. 

The Chairman. Was Colonel Hadley, of Chicago, affiliated with it? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

The Chairman. He was never affiliated with it ? 

Mr. Gardner. Not with this A. P. L. I think I have heard that 
name in connection with the old A. P. L. 

The Chairman. But not with this one? 

Mr. Gardner. No. Oh, yes; there was one chap, one member, 
who had been with the original A. P. L., a former inves- 
tigator of the F. B. L, a fellow by the name of Clyde M. Ambrose, 
and who had been in charge of one of the offices of the A. P. L. 
during the war. 

The Chairman. Where was this association formed; in what State? 

Mr. Gardner. I think a Delaware corporation. It was a nonprofit 
organization. 

The Chairman. Where did they get their funds to operate? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't know that. 

The Chairman. By contributions? You were the executive secre- 
tary; would not vou have some idea? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. But, as I say, the thing, in its embryonic 
stage, died a quick death. 

The Chairman. You mean it was short lived? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. I don't think they raised 15 cents; I don't 
think any effort was made to raise it. 

The Chairman. How long were you with them ? 

Mr. Gardner. Oh, the thing stretched out, and I would say, for a 
matter of keeping myself regularly connected with them, for claims 
against them, I attached myself to them, or stayed attached with 
them, at least a month after they closed up. That, in all, would be 
about 2y 2 to 3 months. 

94931— 39— vol. 6 21 



4070 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. When did they close up? 

Mr. Gardner. January 1938. 

The Chairman. What was the purpose of the organization? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't have their literature with me; I have some- 
copies of it home. Basically, civilian action along the line of the 
Dies committee, with the information to he turned over to the proper 
( government department. 

The Chairman. To investigate all subversive activities? 

Air. Gardner. Yes; in a purely civilian way — I mean without the 
benefit of arms, without the benefit of anything like that. 

The Chairman. Did those embrace Nazis, Fascists, and Com- 
munists? 

Air. Gardner. All three of them. 

The Chairman. As a matter- of fact, did they conduct any investi- 
gation? 

Air. Gardner. Nope. 

The Chairman. They did not do a thing? 

Mr. Gardner. No. You see, Mr. Price. Air. Emery of the American 
Legion, had access to a lot of information, and Price had a lot of 
information 

Air. Mason. I would like to ask a question, if I might. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Mason. Our committee has always required applicants to fill 
positions as investigators to furnish references and recommendations. 
Usually these were given to the committee. Did you furnish refer- 
ences and recommendations when you made application last spring? 

Air. Gardner. In filling in, Mr. Mason, that part of the application 
that permits that, there are several names. 

Mr. Mason. You did furnish several names? 

Mi-. Gardner. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Mason. Of prominent people? 

The Chaikman. He was recommended by some very prominent 
people in political life. There is no use to read the names now. 

Mr. Mason. I am not interested in the names: I am just wonder- 
ing 

Mr. Gardner. On the civilian end of it, I will be glad to tell you 
one name I used there, that is Walter Steele, whom you know very 
well. 

Mr. Mason. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, he was recommended by some 
United States Senators and prominent people. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I think if we are going to have one 
name in the record, we ought to have them all in, or have them all 
out. But I think it is very unfair to one person unless we include 
them all. Now it is all right with me to keep them in, or out; the 
one or the other. That is what I suggest. 

The Chairman. Did Mr. Steele recommend him ? 

Mr. Whitley. I think he did give Mr. Steele as a reference. 

Mr. Gardner. Mr. Steele was in your office talking 

The Chairman. There is no letter here of recommendation from 
Walter Steele. 

Mr. Gardner. I did not say there was. I said in the section there — 
just a minute, Mr. Mason, and I will explain the use of Mr. Steele's 
name. I Avent in your office to see you ; I believe you were over on the 



i the 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4071 

floor, or something; yon were nol in the office, and Mr. Steele was 
talking with Mrs. Boies and I asked Mrs. Boies tor an application 

and, while writing it out, when I got clown to that section, I waited 
until Mr. Steele got through talking with Mrs. Boies, and after say- 
ing ''Hello" to him, I called him over to the center desk in the outside 
room and said "Do you mind if I use your name as a reference," and 
he said "No ; go ahead and use it." 

The Chairman. For the sake of the record, Mr. Steele later repudi- 
ated the whole matter; immediately thereafter Mr. Steele went on 
record to the contrary. 

Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairman, of course, there is a difference between 
a reference and a recommendation, a distinct difference, and I was 
just wondering whether Mr. Gardner had given not only references, 
but recommendations from people of standing. 

The Chairman. Mr. Gardner submitted to this committee recom- 
mendations from some very prominent people in political life, United 
States Senators, and some high officials of the Government. That is 
as far. I think, as that part of the matter should go. 

Mr. Mason. That is as far as I want to go. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe you stated a few monents ago you did 
not know G. R. Ninness. 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is the party who sent a telegram requesting 
that Roy advise Lloyd to call you regarding legislation? And you 
don't know who Lloyd is? If he called you, you don't recall it? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know what legislation he referred to? 

Mr. Gardner. In reference to that, and for 

Mr. Whitley. In reference to what ( 

Mr. Gardner. In reference to the use of such names as that, that 
you might attribute some connection with me, my phone is a non- 
Hsted phone, and I would wager you there are six people a day call 
up there that I never heard of in my life and ask for me. 

The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Mayne? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

The Chairman. You never met him? 

Mr. Gardner. I saw him here the first time I ever saw him. 

Mr. Voorhis. How does that happen; how do they call you? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't know. 

Mr. Voorhis. What kind of people call you? 

Mr. Gardner. Wait a minute, and I will give you an idea. Some 
woman by the name of "Matthews," a Miss or Mrs., called me Sun- 
day night and said that she was Mrs. Matthews and asked if I 
would be interested in doing some research work for her — political 
research work. I said, "Surely," and she said. "Well, if I would 
come to her office, that she would be very glad to discuss it with 
me," and she said that she would have to find out just what time — 
this is Sunday night; not during a business day, but on Sunday 
night — she said "I will call you back and let you know what time 
will be convenient." I said if she would leave the number of her 
phone, I w^oulcl call her, but she said no, that would not be necessary; 
that she was going to talk it over with her partner and call me 
back, and she has not called me back. 

Mr. Whitley. Did she use your name? 



4072 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gardner. Yes; she asked if this was Mr. Gardner. 

Mr. Whitley. And you don't know how she got your telephone 
number ? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Did she call you Frasier ? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. This telegram says "Roy told Lloyd to phone Frasier 
tonight." 

Mr. Gardner. Well, that is my first name. 

Mr. Whitley. Regarding legislation? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know what that possibly could mean ? 

Mr. Gardner. No ; I really and truly don t know what it means. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know who Carmichael is? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. And if that call was put through Lloyd, you don't 
know ? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't know Lloyd. If somebody called me and 
said this, that, and the other thing, in the first place, I do not discuss 
what I do with someone else 

Mr. Whitley. Now, you use the same address as Mr. Babp; you 
say he at least has represented Mr. Pel ley ? 

Mr. Gardner. Of my knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know what his present association is? 

Mr. Gardner. No ; I don't. 

Mr. Whitley. You were identifying Mr. Mayne for us a few mo- 
ments ago. 

Mr. Gardner. That is by his statements to me. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you repeat who he is? I mean you have 
identified him as to his background. Do you know whether he is 
connected in any way with Pelley or the Skyland Press? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't know definitely that he is connected with 
Pelley. I will say this, that he has shown an awful lot of interest 
in the magazines that came up there. There are magazines delivered 
to that office, too, I presume, giving Mr. Babp's connection. Formerly 
what his status was I am not sure of. As to Mr. Pelley, he had shown 
an awful lot of interest in those things — "What do vou think of 
this ? What do you think of that ?" 

Mr. Whitley. Has he ever indicated to you in his conversation, 
or stated to you, he was connected in any way with Pelley ? 

Mr. Gardner. No. He talks a lot about nothing and winds up 
with "a woman you might like to know." 

Mr. AVhitley. Do you know whether he knows Mr. Pelley? 

Mr. Gardner. I have never seen the two of them talk with each 
other. It is possible, though, that he knows him. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever see them in the same room together? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You have not? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. And you did not know Mr. Mayne was trying to get 
a job with this committee? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 



UX-AMERIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4073 

Mr. Whitley. And lie even offered t<> work free of charge to give 
the committee the benefit of his experience and knowledge, for the 
best patriotic motives? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Air. Whitley. Here is a telegram dated "Washington, D. C, July 
15, 1939," addressed to "William Dudley Pelley, Biltmore Plaza, Phone 
108. Asheville, N. C," signed k 'D. D. Mayne." The telegram reads : 

"C. R. reports on George Leech, mayor of Minneapolis, as of this 
date." and so forth. I do not think the substance of the rather long 
telegram is important, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Gardner. I don't know a thing about it. 

Air. Whitley. Do you know who George Leech is? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. But you and Mr. Mayne and Babp all have the same 
address here in town and, at least, you know Mr. Pelley and was con- 
nected with the Skyland Press, and Air. Babp at least has been con- 
nected with it. and this telegram would indicate that possibly Mr. 
Mayne is acquainted with or does business with Air. Pelley? 

Air. Gardner. The fact we all have the same office — do you mind 
clarifying that for the record ? 

Air. Whitley. Well, that is where you get telegrams? 

Mr. Gardner. Is it? Not any that you have read to me. 

Air. Whitley. You gave that as your office address. 

Air. Gardner. Yes, sure : but I don't 

Air. Whitley. You gave that as your office address? 

Air. Gardner. That is correct ; but, to my knowledge, it is not 
Alavne's address. 

Air. Whitley. He gets telegrams there, doesn't he ? 

Air. Gardner. I don't know that. 

Air. Whitley. That is the address on the telegrams I have read to 
you. 

Air. Gardner. He has arrangements made for that office; I know 
that. 

The Chairman. Did you ever meet Mr. Hugh Inchcliffe? 

Air. Gardner. No. 

Air. Whitiey. Air. Chairman, at this time, I would like to call Mr. 
Sullivan. 

The Chairman. Are you going to have Air. Gardner back? 

Air. Whitley. Yes; I am going to ask Air. Gardner to wait for a 
few minutes, and call him back to the stand. 

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE E. SULLIVAN, ATTORNEY AT LAW, 

WASHINGTON, D. C. 

^The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
Air. Whitley. Will you state your full name for the record, Air. 
Sullivan? 

Air. Sullivan. George E. Sullivan. 

Air. Whitley. What is your address. Air. Sullivan ? 

Air. Sullivan. 226 Woodward Building, Washington, D. C. 

Air. Whitley. What is your business, or profession? 

Air. Sullivan. I am a lawyer since 1902. 



4074 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. "Whitley. Mr. Sullivan, are you acquainted with Mr. Frasier 
Gardner \ 

Mr. Sullivan. I am acquainted with him, in the sense I have met 
him on about three occasions. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Mr. Gardner, within the past several months, 
call at your office to see you? 

Mr. Sullivan. He did. 

Mr. Whitley. To the best of your recollection, what approximately 
is the date of that call \ 

Mr. Sullivan. I cannot fix the time very definitely. I could by 
reference to the letter I wrote to this committee a few days after the 
call, but my recollection is it was in June, and sometime after the 
middle of June. 

Mr. Whitley. I have that letter that Mr. Sullivan wrote the com- 
mittee, Mr. Chairman ; I do not have it with me, but we could fix the 
date definitely by that letter. 

What was the occasion of that visit which Mr. Frasier Gardner 
paid to you at your office, Mr. Sullivan ? 

Mr. Sullivan. Well, there was no occasion so far as I was con- 
cerned. He simply dropped in my office and was sitting in my wait- 
ing room — it was in the forenoon — and, when I came back to the 
office, he said he had to see me and he went into my private office 
and began talking, and he said that he had information as to when 
the next hearings of the Dies committee would be held, and who 
would be called, and the subject matter to be inquired into, and he 
wanted — he said he had this information that he could make avail- 
able to anyone, or group, that would make a deal with him for it. I 
told him that I was not interested in anything of the kind and there 
was not any group with which I was acquainted that wanted any such 
information — at least, that would pay anything for it. He talked 
and talked along and I really had no data by which to tell whether 
he was bluffing or whether he did have some private data for sale. 
But in no event was I interested. And the matter concerned me quite 
a bit, worried me a little bit, because I like to see everybody get fair 
play — this committee included. 

The Chairman. Just a second, Mr. Gardner 

Mr. Gardner. I am coming right back. 

Air. Sullivan. So, several days later, it occurred to me that really 
it was a public duty on my part to write this committee frankly about 
it, which I did. 

Mr. Whitley. And as I have stated, Mr. Chairman, I have that 
letter. 

Now, Mr. Sullivan, at the time of this conversation, did Mr. Gard- 
ner indicate that he had inside sources or confidential sources of in- 
formation, or confidential or inside contacts with this committee, 
through which he could get confidential information? 

Mr. Sullivan. He did not say whether he had direct contacts, but 
he made it very plain that he had. or claimed to have, contacts, 
whether direct or indirect, that put him in touch with this in- 
formation. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he at the time discuss some of this confidential 
information that he had, which was for sale? 

Mr. Sullivan. Not a particle, because I did not allow that subject 
to be gone into. 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4075 

Mr. Whtouet. I see. Did you see subsequently or was any future 
or fun her reference made to it at any lime? 

Mr. Sullivan. No; I have not had any talk with him since. 

Mr. Whitley. That is all. Mr. Sullivan, unless the committee has 
some questions. 

The Chairman. Did yon want to read the statement of Mr. Gard- 
ner before the committee in executive session awhile ago? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. That is all. Thank you very much, Mr. Sul- 
livan. 

TESTIMONY OF FRASIER GARDNER— (Recalled) 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman. I think it would be well for the 
reporter at this time to read the record on the executive session this 
morning, at which Mr. Gardner was a witness. 

The Reporter. I do not have that. It was not me. 

Mr. Gakdxer. You can repeat it, Mr. Whitley. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, do you recall the occasion when you 
came to my office and practically demanded you be employed by this 
committee ? 

Mr. Gakdxer. I remember going to your office. 

Mr. AYiiitley. You recall that you were very insistent that you 
be employed: you, among other things, suggested or insisted that I 
call up certain people right then and there, if you were not going 
to be employed, and tell them that ? Do you recall that \ 

Mr. Gardner. Not quite so harshly. I recall suggesting to you 
that it might help me if you would. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, Mr. Gardner, the reason you 
were so interested in getting a connection with this committee would 
be so you would be in a position to get inside confidential informa- 
tion to pass on to your contacts and possibly other employees? Now, 
is not that a matter of fact? 

Mr. Gardner. Definitely, no. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Gardner. I think you saw enough evidence of my background 
in originals 

Mr. Whitley. I have seen enough, Mr. Gardner 

Mr. Gardner. At that time. 

Mr. Whitley. And you have testified this morning, in the executive 
session, and later in the open session here, that you had no connections 
of any kind, direct or indirect, which would prevent you from serving 
the best interests of this committee? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't see how 7 they would. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

The Chairman. And did not he testify directly that he had no 
connection whatsoever with Mr. Pelley and was not on the pay roll 
of Mr. Pelley, and so on, and so forth? 

Mr. Whitley. That is right. 

Mr. Gardner. For your record, I am an employee of the Skyland 
Press. 

The Chairman. So you make that distinction? 

Mr. Gardner. Mr. Dies, I do not see 

The Chairman. Is the reporter on his way here? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes; he will be here. 



4076 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

I believe you also stated, under oath, to the committee that you 
had never approached anyone with a view to selling alleged 

Mr. Gardner. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. I had not finished my question — alleged confidential 
information of this committee? 

Mr. Gardner. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. You still state that? 

Mr. Gardner. I absolutely do. 

The Chairman. And does he deny specifically the testimony of 
Mr. Sullivan? 

Mr. Gardner. I definitely do ; and I can repeat, not verbatim, the 
basic factors in our conversation, and I will be glad to do that for 
the record, if that is in all fairness. 

Mr. Whitley. Why did you happen to go to see Mr. Sullivan on 
the occasion referred to? 

Mr. Gardner. Mr. Sullivan, as you no doubt know, enjoys the repu- 
tation, his own, for fighting communism by virtue of his writings. 
He was for some time a representative of Archdeacon Curley, of 
Baltimore, in the fight on communism. He wrote a booklet — I have 
a copy of it — entitled "Wolves in Sheeps' Clothing," and his activities 
over a number of years, that I know of, definitely have been a fight 
against communism. I have had half a dozen conversations with 
him regarding communism, pro and con, and have teased him on two 
or three occasions, and asked him how far was he getting with it ; I 
did not see any evidence of it, and one thing and another, just in a 
friendly way. And at the time of my going in to see George Sullivan, 
was within, I will say, 2 weeks — I don't recall the number of days — 
after he had appeared here as one of the counsels for General Moseley. 
I went into George Sullivan's office and he was not there, and I had 
the girl locate him. I said, "I am about town for a little bit and I 
would like to see him." He took me into his private office and I told 
him this: I said, "We both have the same thought in mind. How- 
ever, you have instruments to use that I don't have. Why cannot 
you and I collaborate and. where we can, help supply information to 
the committee, when we know who is going to be called." It was 
public information at that time; I have every newspaper clipping 
right on through, showing it, where the Dies committee announced 
the witnesses. I said. "Why cannot we do something about the whole 
dog-goned thing?" 

Mr. Whitley. Do what, did you suggest? 

Mr. Gardner. Well, we will sav you are going to investigate the 
maritime situation, which Senator Copeland started over in Balti- 
more a few years ago — communistic activities in the maritime situa- 
tion. It so happens I have a few materials in relation to that. We 
will say the committee was going to investigate that, and George 
Sullivan being a writer, or rather he professes to be, we could as- 
semble some materials there and turn them over to the committee. 

Mr. Whitley. Oh. your proposition to Mr. Sullivan was that the 
two of you get together and prepare material for this committee? 

Mr. Gardner. Certainly. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. You did not suggest it was of value to the 
committee, did you? 
Mr. Gardner. No. 






UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4077 

Mr. Whitley. No? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. It was just voluntary? 

Mr. Gardner. I don't know what arrangements you have about 
securing informal ion. 

Mr. Whitley. Tt w;»s just voluntary collaboration in preparing 
material which you thought would help this committee? 

Mr. Gardner. Surely. 

Mr. Whitley. And there was no suggestion there 

Mr. Gardner. Definitely not. 

Mr. Whitley. As to the source from which you would get this ma- 
terial that you indicated? 

Mr. Gardner. No ; because, at that particular time, we did not know- 
just what — I think the hearings had recessed until this time 

Mr. Whitley. Did you at that time suggest to Mr. Sullivan that 
you had any inside sources of any kind — contacts — with this com- 
mittee i 

Mr. Gardner. No, sir. 

Air. Whitley. You did not? 

Mr. Gardner. No, sir. The committee knows that I don't have any. 

Mr. Whitley. Well. I was interested in knowing if you repre- 
sented 

Mr. Gardner. That should carry some weight — the fact the com- 
mittee knows I don't have any. 

Mr. Whitley. That would not prevent you, though, from repre- 



senting 

Mr. Gardner. If you don't deliver the goods, you don't make a 
sale: that is the way I look at it, and such a statement as that would 
be asinine. 

Mr. Whitley. And there was no conversation at that time about 
selling this? 

Mr. Gardner. No; absolutely not. 

Mr. Whitley. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. That is all. 

Mr. Thomas. You referred to your present occupation as that of 
political research? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. In what capacity are you actively employed in po- 
litical research at the present time? 

Mr. Gardner. Well, at the present time, in relation to the Skyland 
Press, it would be in relation to immigration, and in relation to the 
Dispensary Association of the District of Columbia. It is purely a 
civic enterprise. You might classify it as political research, inasmuch 
as it has a connection with the revenue angle for the District of 
Columbia. Normally I have been and am employed 

Mr. Thomas. What about the present employment? 

Mr. Gardner. That covers it for the moment, 

Mr. Thomas. Are you doing work for any others? 

Mr. Gardner. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. You said in the beginning that you were doing some 
work for Mr. Sheppard? 

Mr. Gardner. That is the dispensary. He introduced a resolution. 

Mr. Voorhis. You are not working for him? 



4078 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gardner. No, sir; I am not on his pay roll. He is not paying 
me. It is purely a civic matter in which he is interested, and he in- 
troduced a resolution. 

Mr. Voorhis. Congressman Sheppard has no knowledge of your 
connection with the Skyland Press? 

Mr. Gardner. No, sir; for this reason, that there would be no 
point in his knowing. 

Mr. Voorhis. That is all I wanted to know. 

Mr. Thomas. When you walked in here this morning, you ap- 
proached me and said you were going to do some work in New 
Jersey; that you had been hired to do some research work in New 
Jersey, and that you would start about April. What kind of work 
was that? 

Mr. Gardner. To make a State-wide survey of New Jersey, taking 
the voters' lists. It would be nonpartisan. I did not state I had 
been hired, but I said there was an arrangement. 

Mr. Thomas. An arrangement? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes, sir; an arrangement. Do you wish me to tell 
you what I am doing or will do? 

Mr. Thomas. I want to know who you made that arrangement with. 

Mr. Gardner. Unfortunately I would rather not say. I do not mind 
telling you personally. I will be glad to do that somewhere else. That 
is a political research matter. 

Mr. Thomas. What will you survey there ? 

Mr. Gardner. To make a survey, or to make a check of the Demo- 
cratic lists and the Republican lists covering the entire State of New 
Jersey with the lists containing the names of the leaders in all the coun- 
ties, which, of course, would cover the townships, towns, cities, and every 
princi pal place where there is a leader of either party. The survey would 
be conducted by calling upon each of them for their views. Inasmuch as 
1940 is the congressional election year and the Presidential year, their 
views would be gotten strictly on an unbiased basis, so far as I am con- 
cerned. That would cover every inch of New Jersey, and those reports 
would be paid for by interested parties, those persons paying for the 
survey, and they would form their own conclusions. A survey such 
as this 

Mr. Thomas (interposing). What kind of a survey is this? 

Mr. Gardner. Political sentiment, whether Republican or Demo- 
cratic, similar to the Gallup poll. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you have a definite arrangement for that? 

Mr. Gakdner. No, sir; not a definite arrangement. I have an 
arrangement with him that will be concluded sometime. I have had 
overtures on it, and have a fairly concrete tentative arrangement. It 
is up to me whether or not I take it. 

Mr. Thomas. You have got an arrangement ? 

Mr. Gardner. I have been offered this proposition, and, so far as 1 
know, I would take it, but in January I would know more about what 
I am going to do. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you have that arrangement with any person or 
group of persons that have been mentioned here before this committee? 

Mr. Gardner. I do not mind telling you who the person was. In 
private I will be glad to do that. 

Mr. Voorhis. You do not want to tell the committee now who it was? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4079 

Mr. Gardner. No. sir. It would be the same as in your district where 
.they want things strictly political. It is strictly political, and has no 
bearing on this. I do not mind telling you. It is someone you know, 
Mr. Thomas. 

Mr. Mason. What is you idea of research work? You say you do 
such work on various things. What is your idea of research work? 

Mr. Gardner. Research work — it is along the same lines thai Mi-. 
Thomas asked me about. 

Mr. Mason. In the line of making this survey — you call that re- 
search work? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. sir; that would be bordering on it. I would 
say it would be something like these requests from out of town to 
make a survey of some particular kind of legislation. 

Mr. Mason. Would you say that research work would be on a re- 
quest of some organization to find out certain facts that the organ- 
zation may be interested in, whether political facts, scientific facts, 
or any other kind of facts, and then to turn those facts over to the 
organization? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes, sir. As an example, 2 or 3 years ago, or several 
years ago, a national organization employed me to go to the Library 
of Congress and go through all the records or rosters of organiza- 
tions. I would say that was for the George Washington Memorial 
Association, a perfectly legitimate and ethical organization. 

Mr. Mason. That is not the question. That is research work, but 
as to these other activities, where you find out facts concerning the 
legislative situation, or concerning refugee children coming in, fur- 
nishing the facts to people interested in them, you would not classify 
that as research. 

Mr. Gardner. That was given for brevity, for the benefit of the 
committee, but that was only the beginning. I had to go and get sta- 
tistical data from the Department of Labor and the Department of 
Commerce. I had to collect information with reference to immigra- 
tion, and when I got through with that particular work, it made over 
20 pages of information. There would be two or three people. 
I would know where to go. I would know where to get it. 

The Chairman. You are still under the subpena of the committee. 

We will now call the official reporter for the committee. 

TESTIMONY OF TELMA L. SMITH, OFFICIAL REPORTER TO 
COMMITTEES, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

The Chairman. What is your name? 

Mr. Smith. Telma L. Smith. 

The Chairman. You are one of the official reporters to committees? 

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you have occasion this morning to report the 
examination in executive session of Frasier S. Gardner? 

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Will you kindly read the questions and answers? 
Eead them loud enough so we can hear. 

Mr. Smith. I will read the questions and answers. 



4080 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

(The witness read the questions and answers as follows:) 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Gardner, you previously appeared before this committee? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes; in February. 

Mr. Whitley. In connection with an application you had filed'.' 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. For a position as investigator? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you subsequently, I believe at that time you testified with 
reference to your qualifications, experience, and connections, and so forth. 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And I believe you subsequently interviewed me on one or two 
occasions with reference to the possibility of employment. 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that correct? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes ; that is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you still interested in securing a position with the com- 
mittee? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. As an investigator? 

Mr. Gardner, Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And your qualifications and experience are the same as they 
were as you stated in your previous examination, without going over the same 
ground? 

Mr. Gardner. I think the qualification would be the same. 

Mr. Whitley. I mean by qualifications your past connections with and pres- 
ent connections are the same as you testified before. 

Mr. Gardner. Surely. 

Mr. Whitley. You have stated under oath you have no affiliations with or 
associations or connections in any way that would disqualify you from prompt 
performing service for the committee? 

Mr. Gardner. No ; I am conducting a civic survey for Mr. Slieppard, of Cali- 
fornia, with reference to District of Columbia liquor dispensaries. 

Mr. Whitley. That has nothing to do with the committee's work? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Or the committee's function? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitiey. In other words, you are not connected in any way that would 
disqualify you from serving the committee. 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. In the capacity as an investigator? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Giving the committee your full time? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

Mr. Whitney. And serving it to the best interest of the committee? 

Mr. Gardner. That is right. 

The Chairman. You are not connected with any group under investigation? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

The Chairman. You are not connected with the bund, the Communist Party, 
or civic parties, or Mr. Pelley, or other groups under investigation; is that 
right? 

All'. Gardner. That is right. 

The Chairman. You have no connections whatsoever with any of them? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

The Chairman. So you would be in position to render fair and impartial 
service for the interest of the committee? 

Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

The Chairman. You are not now or have ever received any pay from any 
of these organizations or individuals? 

Mr. Gardner. No. 

The Chairman. I see. 

Mr. WniTLEY. By now you mean at the present time? 

The Chairman. At the present or at any time. 

Mr. Whitley. Any kind of remuneration. 

The Chairman. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. I presume that is what Mr. Gardner had in mind in answering 
your inquiry. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPACJANI >A ACTIVITIES 4081 

The Chaium.an. Is that right V 
Mr. Gardner. Yos. 
Mr. Whitley. Is that correct? 
Mr. Gardner. Yes. 

The Chairman. You have no bias one way or the other insofar as any 
phase — I believe we have covered that before. You have no bias? 
Mr. Gardner. None whatsoever. 
Mr. Whitley. None whatsoever. 

The Chairman. Gentlemen, what are your suggestions with ref- 
erence to this particular case? The Chair has a very definite idea 
about it. Do you have anything to say? 

Mr. Thomas. There is no question in my mind but what the gen- 
tleman's testimony in executive session is just opposite from his testi- 
mony in the public hearings. There is no question in my mind, also, 
but what the gentleman has been making an effort to get on this com- 
mittee at a time when he Mas being paid by one of the organizations 
that we were investigating. I, for one, am in favor of going the limit 
in making an example of him. I think there is a little too much of 
this. Here is a clear-cut case, and 1 think we should act accordingly. 

Mr. Gardner. May I have the privilege of making a short state- 
ment { 

The Chairman. We will consider it. Mr. Mason, do you have any 
suggestions? 

Mr. Mason. I feel about as Congressman Thomas has stated, that 
the testimony under oath in the executive session is directly in con- 
flict with his testimony under oath in this open hearing, and that, to 
my mind, is a serious offense which cannot be passed over by this 
committee. That is all. 

The Chairman. Mr. Voorhis? 

Mr. Voorhis. I think that it is perfectly plain that Mr. Gardner 
was well aware of the fact that he was in very close contact with Mr. 
Pelley and his organization. He has testified in a number of dif- 
ferent ways that that was the case, and I think it is pure subterfuge 
for him to say he was paid by the Skyland Press rather than by 
Pelley. I think that is merely a dodge. I am personally of the 
opinion that his attempt to become an investigator was for the pur- 
pose of benefiting the Pelley organization and perhaps others as- 
sociated with him. 

The Chairman. Mr. Gardner, do you have a statement to make ? 

Mr. Gardner. Just a short one. 

The Chairman. All right, you may make it. 

Mr. Gardner. As God is my judge, if I never leave this seat, the 
Skyland Press, Pelley, or any of the people connected with him knew 
nothing of my application to the Dies committee, as I hope never to 
leave this chair. 

The Chairman. Is that your statement? 

Mr. Gardner. That is a definite statement for the record, and it 
will stand in any court of law. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Gardner. Let me finish, if you please; I w r as employed by the 
Skyland Press after I made the application to the committee. That 
is for the record. I was paid by the Skyland Press. I have never 
been paid by William Dudley Pelley. That is all I have to say. 



4082 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, what is the course of procedure 
against this witness? Does this come within the term or constitute 
contumacy? 

Mr. Whitley. It would come within the category of perjury. 

The Chairman. Does the committee want to take it under advise- 
ment, or what action do you wish taken ? 

Mr. Thomas. I am in favor of acting on it right now. 

The Chairman. The Chair wants to make this clear, that any appli- 
cant for employment as investigator, or ai^one else, who undertakes 
to secure any connection with this committee upon the basis of false 
statements of facts, or for the purpose of supplying information to 
any of the subversive groups under investigation, will be dealt with 
to the utmost within our power. It is not so much to make an exam- 
ple, but it will be done in every- case and in every single instance. It 
seems to the Chair that this is a clear case showing that the Pelley 
organization has undertaken by this method to secure information in 
advance and to sabotage this investigation, which this committee will 
not permit. We have had suggestions before that efforts were being 
made in different ways to accomplish the same purpose. 

The committee will consider this matter in executive session and 
will make a definite recommendation as to the correct procedure to 
adopt, 

Mr. Thomas. Right now ? 

The Chairman. Yes; the committee will go into executive session, 
and the hearings will be resumed at 1 : 30 o'clock this afternoon. 
(Thereupon the committee went into executive session.) 

AFTER RECESS 

The committee resumed its session, following the recess, at 1 : 30 
o'clock p. m. 

The Chairman. The committee will be in order. The Chair will 
read the resolution unanimously adopted by the committee in execu- 
tive session, as follows : 

After careful discussion and consideration in executive session, August 23, 
1939, the following resolution was unanimously adopted by the Special Congres- 
sional Committee on UnAmerican Activities : 

"It is hereby resolved, That a statement of facts concerning the testimony given 
by Mr. Fraser Gardner under oath before this committee be referred to the 
United States attorney for the District of Columbia for appropriate prosecutive 
action under the perjury statutes or any other statute appertaining in the case." 

In recommending that this case be referred to the proper authori- 
ties for further action, the committee wishes to make clear that in 
the case of every witness where the facts warrant a similar procedure 
will be followed. Witnesses have been warned that deliberate mis- 
statements of fact before the commitee will not be tolerated where 
such misstatements are material and clearly made. The committee 
feels that the circumstances in the present case are of a specially 
grave nature. Here we appear to have an individual who sought 
employment with the committee as an investigator and who upon 
two occasions under oath denied any connection with any organiza- 
tion or individual under investigation. The witness was accorded 
full opportunity in executive session to disclose all of the facts. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4083 

It appears that the witness concealed and denied material facts for 
the purpose of securing employment with the committee as investi- 
gator, in which position he would have been able to act as an under- 
cover agent for an organization which is opposed to, and which is 
attempting to, sabotage this investigation. The committee has hud 
strong suspicions that similar attempts have been made in (he past 
and it has received informal ion concerning other individuals who 
have held themselves out as representatives and investigators !'<>r this 
committee, when, as a matter of fact, they had no connection with 
this committee. 

In view of the serious aspects of this case, the committee feels that 
it is its duty to refer all of the facts and circumstances to the appro- 
priate authority for such action as may be deemed warranted. 

The committee will stand in recess until tomorrow morning at 10 
o'clock. The committee will now go into executive session. 

(The committee went into executive session, following which it 
adjourned to meet tomorrow, Thursday, August 24, 1939, at 10 a. m.) 



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INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



THURSDAY, AUGUST 24, 1939 

House of Representatives, 
Special Committee to Investigate 

un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. C. 

The committee met at 10 a. m., in the caucus room, House Office 
Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding. 

Present : Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee. 

The Chairman. The committee will be in order. 

I do not know how the committee feels about it, but I think it 
might be well if counsel could, at his leisure, supply the committee 
with information as to what course can be taken here with diplomatic 
representatives of foreign countries meddling in domestic affairs, 
conferring with people representing domestic organizations, and ex- 
pressing interest in internal disputes, manifesting a sympathy for 
movement in this country; whether or not any of the treaties of 
foreign countries with the American Government contain some clause 
which would authorize us to take action. 

It occurs to me, and certainly the evidence continues to pile up here 
of representatives of foreign governments meddling in purely domestic 
affairs, seeking to divide our people into hostile camps, and I am 
wondering if there is not some provision in the treaties which prohibit 
that kind of thing, prohibit the German and Italian Embassies and 
representatives of other foreign governments from engaging in that 
character of work, that is entirely outside of their legitimate field. 

I know the American people could request their recall but there 
must be a specific provision in the treaties that applies to such infor- 
mation as the committee is receiving here. 

Mr. Voorhis. What would you think of American representatives 
in foreign countries doing a similar thing? 

The Chairman. If American representatives were in Germany or 
in Italy and joined in a movement contrary to the Nazi or Fascist 
regime, it would create an international crisis, probably threat of war, 
and I am inclined to think that the evidence here continues to pile up 
not by willing but unwilling witnesses, which shows definitely that 
there have been movements, of any number of contacts with embassies, 
conversations with them, all of which indicate very clearly, at least 
to mv mind, that thev are trespassing upon a domain in which they 
have" no legitimate business and that they are outside of their sphere 
of activity and that some action should be taken to call a show down 
in some instances. 

94931— 39— vol. 6 25 4085 



4086 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

That is just my own individual thought. 

Do any members of the committee have any suggestion on that point 
for the record \ 

All right, Mr. Allen, you may resume the stand. 

TESTIMONY OF HENRY B. ALLEN— Resumed 

Mr. Allen. Mr. Chairman, may I say a word to that point ? 

The Chairman. You may. 

Mr. Allen. As far as I am personally concerned I would like to 
clear up in the committee's mind that there has been no counsellor or 
any representative of any foreign power ever made any approach 
to me. 

The Chairman. Your testimony stands; you have already testified 
with reference to the facts and circumstances of your visit to the 
German and Italian Embassies. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. And what was said. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. And to the same thing that happened in the 
Deatherage case ; George Deatherage was to see them. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. And I think it is absolutely a violation of the spirit 
if not the letter of the treaties with these foreign countries and the 
matter ought to be gone into and for that reason I have asked counsel 
to do that. 

Mr. Allen. Furthermore, Mr. Chairman, I would like to make it 
very clear that as an American citizen, whose ancestry goes back to 
the Battle of Lexington, I have never been nor will ever be an agent 
of any foreign government. 

The Chairman. All right, let us proceed. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, when the hearing was adjourned day 
before yesterday we were discussing your eastern trip. You had 
testified with reference to your activities and contacts in Washington, 
Kansas, West Virginia, New York, and I think we were back in Chi- 
cago. You testified that you had contacted or attempted to contact 
this party out there. Do you recall what his name was ? 

Mr. Allen. In Chicago? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Allen. You mean Father Stachiewicz. 

Mr. Whitley. And did you see him there ? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. He was out of town? 

Mr. Allen. He was away. 

Mr. Whitley. But you attempted to see him on instructions from 
Mrs. Fry? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Who else did you see or attempt to see in Chicago, 
Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. I saw Dr. Uznansky. 

Mr. Whitley. And who is Dr. Uznansky? 

Mr. Allen. He is a practicing physician in Chicago. 

Mr. Whitley. And he is the man, I believe you stated, who was 
active among the Polish people in Chicago? 






ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4087 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr, Whitley. And who is in sympathy, or was in sympathy, with 
the work you were doing and which the groups with which you were 
cooperating were doing % 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And I believe you reported that he told you at the 
time you were in Chicago that his work in the Polish element was 
progressing very nicely? 

Mr. Allen. He told me? 

Air. Whitley. He told you that. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was there any discussion as to his activities and 
the activities of the various groups associated w 7 ith him? 

Mr. Allen. No; the conversation, I do not believe, lasted over an 

hour, possibly. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have any conversation as to his plans and 

activities? 

Mr. Allen. Just conversation as to what had been done in that 
area and in South Chicago, and he requested that I return and make 
some addresses there, 

Mr. Whitley. You did not make any addresses at the time you 
were there? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Does he have an organization, a definite organiza- 
tion ? 

Mr. Allen. I can't say whether he has a definite organization; it 
just seemed to be more or less a loose-knit affair in that area among 
the Polish people. 

Mr. "Whitley. And you stated his activities in that section were 
among Polish people ? 

Mr. Allen. The Polish people, yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Why did you go to Chicago — w 7 as your contact with 
Mr. Uznansky in accordance with your instructions from Mrs. Fry? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I contacted Uznansky as being the man through 
whom I would see Father Stachiewicz. 

Mr. "Whitley. But Mrs. Fry wanted to know what the plans were 
among the Polish people and what the work, how the work had been 
done. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Who else did you see or attempt to see in Chicago? 

Mr. Allen. I saw Dillings, 

Mr. Whitley. What is his initials? 

Mr. Allen. Albert, I believe, Dillings. 

Mr, Whitley. Husband of Mrs. Dillings who wrote the red 

Mr. Allen (interposing). The Red Network and Roosevelts Red 
Work. 

Mr. Whitley. And what was the purpose of that meeting at that 
time? 

Mr. Allen. Just as a social call, as I was passing through ; that was 
all. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you discuss with him your activities out there '. 

Mr. Allen. Just only in a brief way. 

Mr. Whitley. In a brief way? 



4088 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. Mrs. Dillings, at that time was away, out of town, 
and I had really intended to see her, but that wasn't possible. 

Mr. Whitley. Who else in Chicago did you see? 

Mr. Allen. I also called on the commissioner of police. 

Mr. Whitley. Allman? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the purpose of that call? 

Mr. Allen. The purpose of that call was to protest against the 
propaganda picture called the Blockade. 

Mr. Whitley. And was that protest effective ? 

Mr. Allen. I understand so. I understand they withdrew the 
picture, or caused it to be withdrawn. 

Mr. Whitley. You protested against the picture of Blockade being 
shown in Chicago? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Will you develop that testimony around the picture, 
Blockade, a litle more fully; have the witness describe the picture? 

Mr. Wiiiti ey. You described the picture as being propaganda. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. "\\ hitlly. Will you enlarge on that? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I do not think that I recall the details of the 
picture anymore than a general impression. My own general im- 
pression of it was that the picture described or magnified the Jewish 
persecution in Germany 

Mr. Whitley. Magnified? 

Mr. Allen. The Jewish persecution in Germany and aroused a 
feeling of hatred on the part of people in this country against a 
freindly nation. 

Mr. Wh.tley. You say it was designed to exaggerate the situation? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How would you say it exaggerated it; do you know 
what the situation was? 

Mr. Allen. In Germany? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Allen. Only as to what I have read; I haven't been there. 

Mr. Whitley. But in your own opinion 

Mr. Allen (interposing). In my own opinion the picture was de- 
signed for the purpose of arousing the hatred of the people in this 
country against a friendly nation. 

Mr. Whitley. I see, and for that reason you went there to work 
with some others in 

Mr. Allen (interposing). I was quite alone in that. 

Mr. Whitley. You don't know whether they were sympathetic to 
that attempt? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. And you think the picture was withdrawn? 

Mr. Allen. I think so, but I don't know whether it was or not. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, the picture was shown in Chi- 
cago, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. I believe it was afterwards, yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you sure it had to do with Germany or with 
Spain? 

Mr. Allen. Well, it had to do with, as I remember, I think there 
were some Spanish scenes shown in some part of it. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4089 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever seen the picture? 

Mr. Allen. I saw it once, but I have seen so many pictures I don't 
recall the details. 4 

Mr. YViiitley. You are very hazy about the details of it? 

Mr. Allen. At this time I am. 

Mr. Whitley. You just recall that you thought it should not be 
shown ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I made quite a bit of memoranda of the picture 
and I have the memoranda, but I do not attempt to remember all 
the details. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you contact or see anyone else while you were 
in Chicago? 

Mr. Allen. I don't recall that I did. 

Mr. Whitley. And from Chicago you returned to the West again ; 
is that right? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Arriving back in California at what date; do you 
recall ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I think it was about, on or about the 10th of 
February. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, there was one other trip or one other place 
you went on that trip, Mr. Allen, which you haven't covered, and I 
would like for you to do so. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You went to Atlanta from Washington? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And that was on specific information or instructions 
from Mrs. Fry? 

Mr. Allen. On urgent instructions. i 

Mr. Whitley. Urgent instructions? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you describe to the committee the purpose of 
that trip to Atlanta and why Mrs. Fry wanted you to go to Atlanta, 
Ga.? 

Mr. Allen. According to her expressed desire I should go to 
Atlanta, Ga , for the purpose of contacting Mr. Evans. 

The Chairman. What Evans is that? 

Mr. Allen. Hiram W. Evans. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was he? 

Mr. Allen. He at that time was the nominal head of the Ku Klux I 
Klan. 

Mr. Whitley. And what was the purpose of your contacting him? 

Mr. Allen. To ascertain whether there was any chance of reviving 
the Klan and its activities on the Pacific coast. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. You say reviving. Don't you mean having 
the Klan become more active? 
no t Mr. Allen. Having the Klan become more active, 

Mr. Whitley. On the Pacific coast. 

Mr. Allen. On the Pacific coast; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And was that move a success ; what was Mr. Evans' 
response to that suggestion? 

Mr. Allen. Mr. Evans was not at all enthusiastic about it, insofar 
as California, especially. 

Mr. Whitley. He does have an organization out there? 



4090 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. Yes ; I understand there is. 

Mr. Whitley. He has an organization there but Mrs. Fry didn't 
think it was active enough and thought it could be even better. 

Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry, to come to the point now 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Allen. Mrs. Fry desired, in some way, to accomplish the con- 
trol of the Klan. 

Mr. Whitley. She wanted to get control of it ? 
Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. On the West coast? 
Mr. Allen. She wanted to control the Klan. 
Mr. Whitley. The whole Klan? 
Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The national organization? 
Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And what was her plan to accomplish its control? 
Mr. a llfn. To bring it back again to its old activities. 
Mr. Whitley. Its old activity? 
Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. As it formerly was; she felt if she had charge of 
it she thought s^e could get it active again? 
Mr. A llen. That is the wav it appealed to me. 
Mr. Whitley. And how did she propose to get control ; just how 
was she going to get control ; how was she going to get it turned over 
to hpr? 

Mr. Allen. It seemed to be the idea that Mr. Evans would transfer 
it over for a price. 

Mr. Whitley She wanted to buy the organization ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I do not know that she wanted to buy; she 

seemed to think that he would 

Mr. Whitley. That he would sell? 
Mr. Allen. That is right ; sell its membership list. 
Mr. Whitley. Sell its membership? 
Mr. Allen. Its membership list ; she wanted the list. 
Mr. Whitley. She wanted the membership list ? 
Mr. Allen. That is what I felt. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, what price did she name was set as being 
willing to pay if this deal could be put through? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I think there was some vague mention of a 
matter on one or two occasions; that she thought if the thing could 
be arranged for possibly $75,000. 

Mr. Whitley. Did she indicate she would be willing, possibly, to 
pay $75,000 if it could be arranged? 

Mr. Allen. Not that she would be willing, but that the matter 
might be arranged. 

Mr. Whitley. She indicated she thought she could get the monev 
for it? * J 

Mr. Allen. If she thought it could be arranged. 
Mr. Whitley. Will you describe for the record or repeat for the 
record your conversation with Mr. Evans, in as much detail as pos- 
sible, Mr. Allen ? 

Mr. Allen. Well that is going to be rather skimpy; a great deal 
has happened since that time. 

Mr. Whitley. At least cover the salient points of that conversa- 
tion. 



of a 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4091 

Mr. Allen. I met Mr. Evans in the Henry Grady Hotel. 
Mr. Whitley. In Atlanta. GaJ 
Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was thai done by appointment? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Before you went down there? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know him previously? 

Mr. Allen. Never. 

Mr. Whitley. Never knew him? 

Mr. Allen. No. And I discussed the matter of a possible succes- 
sor to Mr. Evans, and more or less outlined to him the question of 
reviving the Klan in California. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Allen. And he said that he wasn't interested; he said he 
didn't, think it was possible to revive the Klan in a State like Cali- 
fornia with its Epic plan, its Dr. Townsend plan, and its "Get Some- 
thing for Nothing" plan. He wasn't interested. 

Ha was lying on a bed ; he was feeling quite ill at that time and he 
advised me to go back to California and to try to work with — I believe 
he said Mr. Snelson. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know who Snelson was? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You had no contact with him? 

Mr. Allen. I never saw the man ; I never looked him up. 

Mr. Whitley. But you would say at that time he was one of the 
Klan 

Mr. Allen (interposing). He is the nominal head, I am told, of 
the Klan in California. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Allen (continuing). Southern California. 

Mr. Whitley. In Southern California? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Where is he located? 

Mr. Allen. Los Angeles. 

Mr. Whitley. In Los Angeles? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. All right, continue your interview with Mr. Evans. 

Mr. Allen. Well, that was about all it pertained to. He just said he 
wasn't interested and there was nothing to talk about. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you mention a possible price to him ? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. If the deal could be made ? 

Mr. Allen. No; I didn't. 

Mr. Whitley. You didn't mention that? 

Mr. Allen. No; It would have been entirely out 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). In other wwds, you didn't take that 
up with him ? 

Mr. Allen. No ; there was nothing to be said. 

The Chairman. Did vou discuss with him getting the membership 
list at all ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Anything else in that conversation with reference to 
the activities of the Klan, either in California or other places? 



4092 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. No; there was not, Mr. Chairman; because Governor 
Rivers came into the room at about that; time, and the conversation was 
interrupted, and I did not have any more to say, and I wasn't particu- 
larly in harmony with the proposition anyway. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Governor Rivers hear this conversation you had 
with Mr. Evans? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. It had nothing to do with your visit? 

Mr. Allen. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Whitley. With your trip? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You didn't have an opportunity to get around to 
making a definite proposition to purchase the membership list? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he indicate the extent of the membership of the 
Klan? 

Mr. Allen. No; he didn't indicate it; and I certainly didn't ask him. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Were you acquainted at the time you talked 
with him with any of the Klan's leaders on the west coast? 

Mr. Allen. Only one, who has shown me his card. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have any information as to the extent of the 
membership of the Klan on the west coast ? 

Mr. Allen. Pardon me ; I have met two. 

Mr. Whitley. You have met two ? 

Mr. Allen. I have met two. 

Mr. Whitley. Are they leaders or members? 

Mr. Allen. No ; they are leaders. 

Mr. Whitley. The}' are leaders ? Can you give us the names of those 
leaders, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. One's name was Charles Slocombe, of Long Beach. 

Mr. Whitley. And who is the other one ? 

Mr. Allen. And another by the name, I believe, of L. D. Baker. 

Mr. Whitley. Where is he located? 

Mr. Allen. Fresno. 

Mr. Whitley. In Fresno? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What position? You said they were leaders; do you 
know what position? 

Mr. Allen. I would say organizers. 

Mr. Whitley. Organizers? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they ever indicate the extent of the member- 
ship and activities of the Klan? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. On the west coast ? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. And you don't know? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Whitley. You had no opportunity to make a definite proposal 
or a final arrangement whereby Mrs. Fry might get control of the 
Klan? 

Mr. Allen. None whatsoever. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4093 

Mr Whitley. And of her proposition of being willing to raise or 
trying to get $75,000 to buy the membership so she couM put new 
life into it and then make it active again? 

Mr. Allen. I wasn't — I was much impressed that her desire was 
to get the membership names. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. That was her principal interest? 

Mr. Allen. I was impressed that way. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever discuss with her subsequently what 
she had planned to or what she might have done if she had gotten 
control of the membership? 

Mr. Allen. No. I remember several times that she said if she had 
anything to do with it it certainly would be made more active, or 
words to that effect. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. As a matter of fact, the Klan has subse- 
quently, the leadership, has been changed ? 

Mr. Allen. I so understand. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether the list was sold 

Mr. Allen (interposing.) I haven't the least idea. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether someone else may have 
made, or had a similar idea, with better success, and might have been 
able to put the deal through? 

Mr. Allen. I couldn't say as to that. 

Mr. Whitley. Reading from a news item dated June 11, 1931), un- 
der a date line of Atlanta, Ga. : 

James Arnold Colescott, 42 years old, former veterinarian, succeeded Dr. 
Hiram W. Evans, one-time dentist as imperial wizard of the Ku Klux Klan 
today. A native of Terre Haute, Ind., Dr. Colescott had served 2 years as Dr. 
Evans' chief of staff. 

You know nothing personally about that arrangement? 

Mr. Allen. Only that I met the man in Atlanta. 

Mr. Whitley. You met the man? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What was Colescott doing then? 

Mr. Allen. He was in the office; in fact, I went to him as the man 
to contact Dr. Evans. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Allen. And he w T as the man who introduced himself as being 
in charge of the office there at that time ; that was all the conversation. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know anything about the plans lie 
might have had at the time? 

Mr. Allen. He merely made the appointment for me to meet Dr. 
Evans, that was all. 

Mr. W t hitley. I see. And the presence of the Governor there at 
that time, when you were with Mr. Evans in Atlanta 

Mr. Allen (interposing). Had no significance whatsoever. 

Mr. Wh.tley. With your visit? 

Mr. Allen. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Whitley. It was entirely separate ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. We touched the other day, Mr. Allen, on the visit of 
Mr. Beamish to this country and you spoke of an engagement that he 
fulfilled on the west coast. We did not go into a great deal of details 
about that visit and I would like to get back to that visit for a few 
minutes and try to develop it a little further. 



4094 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

As I recall, you testified, you said that upon learning of Mr. Beam- 
ish coming to this country you undertook to arrange some speaking 
engagements for him or put him in touch with people. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And help him in the work out there ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. There were some individuals that you mentioned 
with reference to Mr. Beamish's visit, were there not ? 

Mr. Allen. As I recall I first telegraphed to Mr. Ingalls. 

Mr. Whitley. What are his initials? 

Mr. Allen. I think his name is — his initials are C. I., if I recall 
correctly. 

Mr. Whitley. All right, 

Mr. Allen. Clayton, I believe. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he is identified with any 
organization ? 

Mr. Allen. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Whitley. He is independent? 

Mr. Allen. I believe so, and then I also, on the long distance tele- 
phone, if I remember correctly, called Mr. Kullgren, of Atascadero, 
and I asked him to arrange a meeting there. And I also got in touch 
with Mr. Schwinn, of the German-American bund, and I asked him 
to arrange a meeting there, 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Allen. I also got in touch with Martin Luther Thomas, that 
is Rev. Martin Luther Thomas, and asked him to arrange a meeting 
for Beamish in his church. 

I don't recall any others. 

Mr. Whitley. What are your relations with Mr. Ingalls? Have 
you been associated with or known him? 

Mr. Allen. I have only met Mr. Ingalls once. I have had one or 
two short letters from him. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what his general program or plans 
are — what his activities are? 

Mr. Allen. Well, his activities are much the same, I believe, as 
some of the others. He has a very peculiar way, however, of ex- 
pressing them on paper. 

Mr. Whitley. But, in general, his viewpoint 

Mr. Allen. In a general way, his viewpoint, I would say, is con- 
sonant with ours. 

Mr. Whitley. Is consonant with yours? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, he is sympathetic with your activi- 
ties? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And you are sympathetic with his activities? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. Are you speaking about Beamish now? 

Mr. Whitley. No ; I am speaking about Ingalls. 

The Chairman. Did you make clear who Beamish is? 

Mr. Whitley. We are speaking about Ingalls now. I am going 
back to Beamish. I am leading up to the making of speaking 
arrangements. 



UN-AMEMCAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4095 

Mr. Ingalls, in a genera] way. understood and was sympathetic 
with your program and yon likewise understood and were sympathetic 
•with liis program ? 

Mr. Aij.kx. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Now. did any of those individuals actually arrange 
speaking engagements for Captain Beamish? 

Mr. Ai i in. I think they did. 

Mr. Whitley. Yon think they did make arrangements for him to 
speak ( 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Captain Beamish, as yon stated the other day, I 
believe, is the gentleman from South Africa '. 

Mr. Allen. He is a member of Parliament in South Rhodesia. 

Mr. Whitley. In South Rhodesia? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And he is identified with the organization known as 
Brit a ins? 

Mr. Allen. He was founder of Britains, and I know he retains 
his identification with the organization at this time. 

Air. Whitley. Do you consider that organization a Fascist organi- 
zation, a Fascist group? 

Mr. Allen. Well. Mr. Chairman, that I would not be able to answer, 
because I have no idea what the term "FascisC refers to, or what 
activities. 

Mr. Whitley. How would you describe the group, then ; what is 
your impression of it? 

Mr. Allen. It is definitely and strongly anti-Jewish Communist. 

The Chairman. Of course, he is also sympathetic with Hitler, is he 
not ? Has he not expressed himself sympathetic with Hitler? 

Mr. Allen. I believe so. 

The Chairman. Sympathetic with the Nazi movement ? 

Mr. Allen. Y"es; I believe he has. And I further believe he visits 
Germany and knows Mr. Hitler. 

The Chairman. The fact is that a great many of these people who 
are anti-Jewish Communists are also, for some reason, very sympa- 
thetic with Hitler, are they not? 

Mr. Allen. I would not say so, Mr. Chairman ; no, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, when did Captain Beamish arrive in Cali- 
fornia ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, it was just shortl} 7 — I would say about the middle 
of December. 

Mr. Whitley. 1938? 

Mr. Allen. 1938 ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. 1938; last year? 

Mr. Allen. No; not last vear. 

Mr. Whitley. 1937 ? 

Mr. Allen. 1937: yes. 

Mr. Whitley. December 1937? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; December 1937. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he enter the United States on the west coast or 
did he enter one of the eastern ports ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I know he arrived in Los Angeles on the steam- 
ship Thrush at San Pedro. 

Mr. Whitley. And did you meet him when he came in ? 



4096 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know he had previously visited Canada 
before he came to California? 

Mr. Allen. I believe he did. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know who he visited up there ? 

Mr. Allen. He visited Mr. Adrien Arcand. 

Mr. Whitley. Where is Mr. Arcand located in Canada? 

Mr. Allen. Mr. Arcand is located in Montreal. 

Mr. Whitley. And what organization does he sponsor, or is he the 
head of, in Canada? 

Mr. Allen. I think it is called — I think it is called "Canadian Fas- 
1 cists," but I am not sure. 

Mr. Whitley. "Canadian Fascists?" 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Wpiitley. It has also been referred to, I believe, as "Canadian 
National Federation." 

Mr. Alijn. Yes; that is what I refer to — the "Canadian National 
Federation." 

Mr. Whitley. He is frequently referred to as a Canadian Fascist, 
is he not? 

Mr. Allen. He says he is. 

Mr. Whitley. He describes himself as a Canadian Fascist? 

Mr. Allen. He says he is; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And Mr. Beamish was a good friend of his, or 

Mr. Allen. I don't know as to that; I don't know he was any 
more than simply calling on him. I don't know as to that. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Arcand was making speaking 
arrangements for him in California? 

Mr. Allen. That I could not say. 

Mr. Whitley. Getting back to Cantain Beamish : Did Mr. Ingails 
arrange any speaking engagements for him? 

Mr. Allen. For Beamish? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And what was the nature of those affairs; were they 
invitation affairs, or did they sell tickets? 

Mr. Allen. No. I think it was by admission card. I was not 
present myself, so I have no knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. That was in San Francisco? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what leaders were invited to that 
meeting ? 

Mr. Allen. That I don't know. 

Mr. Whitley. Or how many were there? 

Mr. Allen. I could not say as to that. 

Mr. Whitley. Where else did Captain Beamish speak on the west 
coast ? 

Mr. Allen. He spoke in Atascadero. 

Mr. Whitley. That meeting was sponsored by whom? 

Mr. Allen. By Mr. Kullgren, I believe, and I think he spoke also 
in Oakland, and he spoke in Los Angeles several times. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know who sponsored, or what group spon- 
sored any of those meetings? 

Mr. Allen. Well, when he spoke in Mr. Thomas' church, why, it 
was sponsored by the Christian American Crusade. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4097 

Mr. Whitley. The Christian American Crusade? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did the Silver Shirts participate in any of those 
meetings '. 

Mi*. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. They did not '. 

Mr. Allen. No. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did the German-American Bund participate in any 
of those gatherings? 

Mr. Allen. I would say so, although I was not present. 

Mr. Whitley. They were represented — it is your impression or 
understanding they were represented? 

Mr. Allen Well, lie was invited to speak at the German house. 

Mr. Whitley. He was? 

Mr. Allen. He was. 

Mr. Whitley. And did he accept that invitation? 

Mr. Allen. He did. 

Mr. Whitley. And spoke there? 

Mr. Allen. He spoke there ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That meeting, of course, was sponsored by the bund? 

Mr. Allen. I would say so. 

Mr. Whittey. W 7 here did he stay while he was in Los Angeles, or 
in that vicinity ? 

Mr. Allen. He stayed at a hotel ; I think it is named the "Carlton," 
right opposite the Biltmore Hotel. 

Mr. Whitley. Did not he also visit in the home of some people in 
that vicinity \ 

Mr. Allen. Not in Los Angeles, except in my own home; that is all. 

Mr. Whitley. I see, Who are "Charles" and "Laura"? 

Mr. Allen. I have no idea who Charles and Laura may be. 

Mr. Whitley. How long was Captain Beamish on the west coast 
altogether ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, he arrived, as I said before, about the middle of 
December, and he left, I would say, the early part of or about the mid- 
dle of January. I think he was there about a month, all told. 

Mr. Whitley. About a month? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You were in contact with him ; did he have any con- 
ferences with Mrs. Fry Avhile he was there? 

Mr. Allen. He tried to, but there was no contact. 

Mr. Whitley. There was no contact? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know Mr. and Mrs. Curtiss? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Captain Beamish stay in their home? 

Mr. Allen. He visited there. 

Mr. Whitley. He visited there? 

Mr. Allen. But not in Los Angeles. 

Mr. Whitley. I said in that vicinity. 

Mr. Allen. We don't consider San Diego is in the vicinity of Los 
Angeles. That is why I answered that way. 

Mr. Whitley. You do know he stayed with them? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. He visited for some time with them, did he not? 



4098 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Allen. I think lie was there several days. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the same Mr. and Mrs. Charles Curtiss 
whom General Moseley testified he visited in their home? 

Mr. Allen. The name is not Charles Curtiss; the name is Fraser. 

Mr. Whitley. Fraser? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What is Mrs. Curtiss' name? 

Mr. Allen. Dianna. 

Mr. Whiiley. And you don't know whether that is the same Mr. 
and Mrs. Curtiss whom General Moseley testified he visited while 
he was out there? 

Mr. Allen. Well, I have no idea as to General Moseley's move- 
ments on the Pacific coast. 

Mr. Whitley. You were friendly with Mr. and Mrs. Curtiss? 

Mr. Allen. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You know their activities, certainly, insofar as 
affects your interests? 

Mr. All-n. Yes; I know who they are. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, right at that point : Mr. Whitley, 
lias it been brought out by Mr. Allen how this Captain Beamish 
happened to come here originally; who invited him? 

Mr. Whitley. It has not been brought out clearly, Mr. Thomas, 
but we will bring it out. 

Was Captain Beamish invited to come to this country, to make 
these speeches, or did he come 

Mr. Allen. Not to my knowledge. In fact, the first I knew of 
Captain Beamislrs in-esence in the country was when he made a 
speech in the New York Hippodrome, which was during the early 
part of December — no; during the early part of November, of that 
year, at wlrch some 5,000 people were present, and at which also 
Mr. Edmondson spoke, and Mr. Arcand also spoke. 

Mr. Whitley. At the Hippodrome meeting. 

Mr. Allen. At the Hippodrome meeting. 

Mr. Whitley. And you don't know whether he just came here 
voluntarily, or was invited by some American groups or activities? 

Mr. Allen. I have no knowledge as to that. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether Captain Beamish was paid 
for those speeches on the Pacific coast? 

Mr. Allen. Never. I don't think Captain Beamish would accept 
anv money for making these speeches. 

Mr. Thomas. Did he receive traveling expenses? 

Mr. Allen. I had been told that it would be a good thing if Cap- 
tain Beamish's expenses could be met in some way, because he was on 
his own. 

Mr. Thomas. And where they met, do you know? 

Mr. Allen. That I don't know. I don't think they were met to 
anv degree, if thev were at all. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Allen, in vour letter dated "Los Anjreles. De- 
cember 24, 1937," to Mr. C. F. Ingalls, 2702 Bush Street, San Fran- 
cisco, Calif., you state: 

Just a line to advise you that arrangements have been made with Capt. 
H. H. Beamish by which he has consented to address such meetings as ran 
he arranged by you ami our other frier ds in the San Francisco Bay region 
on the following dates : January 5, 6, and 7. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 4099 

You go on in the letter to discuss plans for speaking arrangements 
and for Captain Beamish's visit. That was in keeping with testi- 
mony you gave concerning your efforts to assist Captain Beamish in 
arranging speaking engagements? 

Mr. Allen. Now, Mr. Chairman, just here I want to say a word. 
That letter that you are reading there is from a photostat, I imagine, 
and that is quite all right; but those photostats are all taken from 
letters which were stolen and illegally seized from my brief case at the 
time of my arrest in San Diego, and I want to respectfully disclaim 
any responsibility as to their authenticity or correctness; because 
those Utters, at the time they were illegally seized by the police 
department, were passed into the hands of the Jewish Anti-deiama- | 
lion League, the B'nai B'rith. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know that, or is that a conclusion? 

Mr. Allen. I have been told that. 

Mr. Whitley. You have been told that? 

Mr. Allen. By others. 

Mr. Whitley. They were seized by the police in San Diego? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; they were illegally seized by the police. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, was that ever officially declared, or stated, or 
decided by a court? 

Mr. A llen. Yes, sir ; by my attorney. 

Mr. Whitney. Did a court ever decide they were illegally seized? 

Mr. Allen. No. We have not gone to court about that yet. 

Mr. Whitley. You and your attor