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Full text of "Investigation of un-American propaganda activities in the United States. Hearings before a Special Committee on Un-American Activities, House of Representatives, Seventy-fifth Congress, third session-Seventy-eighth Congress, second session, on H. Res. 282, to investigate (l) the extent, character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propaganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary remedial legislation"



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INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN 

PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE 

UNITED STATES 

HEARINGS 

BEFORE A 

SPECIAL 

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

ON 

H. Res. 282 

TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND OBJECTS 
OF UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED 
STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF 
SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA THAT IS INSTI- 
GATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN 
AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE FORM OF GOVERN- 
MENT AS GUARANTEED BY OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL 
OTHER QUESTIONS IN RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID 
( < INGRESS IN ANY NECESSARY REMEDIAL 
LEGISLATION 



VOLUME 9 



SEPTEMBER 28, 29, SO, AND OCTOBER 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13, AND 14, 1939 

AT WASHINGTON, D. C. 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 

WASHINGTON : 1939 






INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN 

PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE 

UNITED STATES 



■ 5 ! 

HEARINGS 

BEFORE A 

SPECIAL 

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGEESS 

FIRST SESSION 
ON 

H. Res. 282 

TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND OBJECTS 
OP UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED 
STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF 
SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA THAT IS INSTI- 
GATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN 
AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE FORM OF GOVERN- 
MENT AS GUARANTEED BY OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL 
OTHER QUESTIONS IN RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID 
CONGRESS IN ANY NECESSARY REMEDIAL 
LEGISLATION 



VOLUME 9 



SEPTEMBER 28, 29, 30, AND OCTOBER 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13, AND 14, 1939 

AT WASHINGTON, D. C. 



Printed for the use of toe Special Conimi<^ee on Un-American Activities 






UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
94931 WASHINGTON : 1939 



y 



7 'r 



7 



SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
WASHINGTON, D. C. 

MARTIN DIES. Texas, Chairman 

JOHN J. DEMPSEY, New Mexico NOAH M. MASON, Illinois 

JOE STARNES, Alabama J. PARNELL THOMAS, New Jersey 

JERRY VOORHIS, California 

JOSEPH E. CASEY, Massachusetts 

Robert E. Stripling, Secretary 
Rhea Whitley, Counsel 
J. B. Matthews, Director of Research 
ii 






' 



■ -' .. , 



CONTENTS 



Page 

Baumann, Ernest, salesman 5531, 5557 

Brodsky, Joseph, attorney for Mr. Foster 5323 

Foster, William Z., National Chairman of the Communist Party of the 

United States _- 5323, 5364 

Goff, Oliver Kenneth, salesman 5582 

Jacobs. Douglas, campaign director, Spanish Refugee Relief Campaign 5541 

Kxivitsky, Walter G., former member of Soviet Military Intelligence 5719 

Malkin, Maurice L., 434 East Sixteenth Street, New York, N. Y 5743 

Ness, Neil Howard, mechanical engineer 5489,5511 

Pitcoff , Robert, electrician 5797 

Revyuk, Emil, associate editor of Svoboda 5259, 5297 

Shub, Boris, interpreter for Walter Krivitsky _ 5719 

Zack, Joseph, garment worker 5431,5455 

m 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 1939 

House of Representatives, 
Special Committee to Investigate 

Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. G. 

The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) 
presiding. 

Present : Messrs. Dies, Mason, and Voorhis. 

Also present: Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee, and J. B. 
Matthews, director of research for the committee. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. In view of the 
absence of most of the members of the committee, the Chair, under the 
authority vested in him, declares a meeting of a subcommittee, with 
himself as chairman, and with Mr. Voorhis and Mr. Mason present, 
until we can have a full committee present. 

TESTIMONY OF EMIL REVYUK, ASSOCIATE EDITOR OF SV0B0DA 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

The Chairman. Mr. Revyuk, you will have to speak distinctly, be- 
cause there will be difficulty in understanding your testimony. Speak 
slowly and distinctly, and loud enough so we can hear your statement. 

Mr. Matthews. I also suggest that the witness not answer questions 
too quickly before we have a chance to spell out names for the reporter. 

State your fidl name. 

Mr. Revyuk. Emil Revyuk. 

Mr. Matthews. Where were you born ? 

Mr. Revyuk. I was born in what was then Austria. 

Mr. Matthews. What is it now ? 

Mr. Revyuk. It is under Soviet Russian occupation. 

Mr. Matthews. What is your present address ? 

Mr. Revyuk. 6142 Seventy-eighth Street, Elmhurst, Long Island. 

Mr. Matthews. What is your business address? 

Mr. Revyuk. 83 Grand Street, Jersey City, N. J. 

Mr. Matthews. What is your occupation? 

Mr. Revyuk. I am associate editor of Svoboda. 

Mr. Matthews. What is Svoboda? 

Mr. Revyuk. It is the Ukrainian daily, published at the Jersey 
City address I gave. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you occupy any official position in any move- 
ment of the Ukrainian people in the United States? 

5259 



5260 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revyuk. I am president of the United Ukrainian Organiza- 
tions of the United States. 

Mr. Matthews. You are by virtue of your own descent and occupa- 
tion as associate editor of Svoboda, a Ukrainian newspaper, 
acquainted with the Ukrainian population of the United States and 
its movements, are you not ? 

Mr. Revtuk. I am, and I have been connected with the movement 
for many years. I am not only the associate editor but also the man- 
ager of that paper. 

Mr. Matthews. How long have you been in the United States? 

Mr. Revyuk. I came in 1917. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you a citizen of the United States? 

Mr. Revttjk. I am. 

Mr. Matthews. When were you naturalized? 

Mr. Revtuk. In 1922. 

Mr. Matthews. Where were you naturalized? 

Mr. Revyuk. In the county of New York. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please sketch briefly the nature and pur- 
poses of the Ukraine organization in the United States known as 
Hetman ? 

Mr. Revtuk. It is difficult for me to say much about that, because 
I am not a member of that organization. I never was a member of 
that organization. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know a great deal about it from your 
acquaintance with the Ukrainian movement in the United States? 

Mr. Revyuk. It came into much public notice in the newsoapers 
as an organization, when as important an organization as the United 
Ukraine Organizations in the United States came in conflict with that 
organization. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you read any of its literature? 

Mr. Revyxk. Some of it. 

Mr. Matthews. Have matters concerning that organization ap- 
peared in your own newspaper from time to time? 

Mr. Revyuk. No, sir. We have mentioned them and wrote about 
them. 

Mr. Matthews. From your knowledge of that organization as an 
outsider, what would you say is its purpose? 

Mr. Revyuk. I know the purpose which they proclaim. They pro- 
claim to be an organization for the establishment of a Ukrainian na- 
tion under a monarchistic order, the monarchy to be hereditary and 
the monarchy to be the family of General Skoropadsky. 

Mr. Matthews. The organization, you would say, is proclaiming 
itself to be a monarchistic organization? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. For the purpose of establishing on the throne of a 
reborn Ukrainian state a monarchy under the family of General 
Skoropadsky ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do I understand that this organization exists here 
in the United States? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

The Chairman. Does it have branches in other countries through- 
out the world? 



I'X-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5261 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir; it is connected with a central organization 
in Germany — in Berlin. 

The Chairman. Do you have any idea what the membership is 
here in the United States? 

Mr. Revyuk. I have no idea about that. 

The Chairman. You have no way of formulating an opinion on 
that? 

Mr. Revyuk. It is very small — not more than 1,000 people in the 
whole United States. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you please sketch briefly, either as an 
insider or outsider, the Ukrainian organization known as the Odwu? 
First, I will ask if vou are a member of that organization. 

Mr. Revyuk. I never was and am not a member now. 

Mr. Matthews. Has there been any special reason why you did 
not want to join the Odwu \ 

Mr. Revyuk. First, it was an organization in competition with the 
organization of which I am president, the Ukrainian United Organi- 
zations of the United States; second, from what I have heard about 
that organization, it was contrary to my opinions. 

Mr. Matthews. What particular things were contrary to your 
opinions? 

The Chairman. Let us see about that. Is this hearsay or based 
on just what you have heard? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Where did you hear it — from members of the 
organization? 

Mr. Revyuk. Some I heard from people in whom I have some con- 
fidence. For instance, a classmate of mine, with whom 

The Chairman (interposing). Can you not develop that, Mr. 
Matthews, without having hearsay statements against the organiza- 
tion ? 

Mr. Matthews. The witness, I believe, has had personal experience 
with the organization, and has acquainted himself thoroughly with 
its literature. He has even associated professionally with some of 
the leaders of the organization. Is that correct? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir; I met some of the leaders. 

The Chairman. You have talked with some of the leaders? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you had close contact with some of the 
leaders? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is the editor of the paper of which you are 
I lie associate editor \ 

Mr. Revyuk. The editing chief is Dr. Luke Myshuha. 

Mr. Matthews. Dr. Myshuha is editor in chief of Svoboda? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. The paper of which you are the manager and asso- 
ciate editor? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Is Dr. Myshuha associated with the organization 
known as Odwu I 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know that he is a member. I do not know 
that. 

Mr. Matthews. You see a great deal of him, do you not? 



5262 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you had considerable correspondence with 
him, both in this country and abroad ? 
Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir ; I have. 

Mr. Matthews. Does any reference to Odwu appear in that cor- 
respondence, or did it appear in your conversations with him? 
Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Would not those references lead you to believe that 
he is a member of or closely associated with that organization ? 
Mr. Revyuk. I cannot say whether he is a member. 
Mr. Matthews. Approximately what is the population of the 
Ukrainian people in the United States ? 

Mr. Revyuk. It is quite difficult to say, but a man by the name of 
Halych, who made a study of it as a thesis at the Chicago University,. 
says that it is approximately about 800,000. 
Mr. Matthews. Of the first generation ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Of the first and second generations in the United 
States. 

Mr. Matthews. Coming back to the organization known as the 
Odwu, the word Odwu is the initials of a Ukrainian word ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes ; they are the first letters of a name which means 
an organization for the national reconstruction of the Ukraine. They 
call it an organization for the reconstruction or the rebirth of the 
Ukraine. 

Mr. Matthews. An organization for the rebirth of the Ukraine ? 
Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who is the president of the organiza- 
tion for the rebirth of the Ukraine? 

Mr. Revyuk. I know him personally. He is Prof. Alexander 
Granowsky. 

Mr. Matthews. Where is Dr. Granowsky employed as a professor? 
Mr. Revyuk. He is a professor at the State University of Minne- 
sota. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know him personally ? 
Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You have that contact with the organization ? 
Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is the secretary of the Odwu ? 
Mr. Revyuk. That I do not know for sure, but my impression is 
that Mr. Rizuyk is the secretary. 

The Chairman. On what do you base your statement that he is the 
secretary? We do not want you to make statements on the basis of 
hearsay or rumors. 

Mr. Revyuk. I saw letters that came from the organization, and I 
remember that name signed to them. 

The Chairman. It is your impression that they were signed by him 
as secretary? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. I will ask the witness to identify a copy of a 
Ukrainian Press Service. Are these copies of Ukrainian Press Service 
reports ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir; they are releases of the Ukrainian Press 
Service, Forty-second Street, New York City. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5263 

Mr. Matthews. As an editor, do you receive this press service? 

Mr. Revttjk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You know from the press releases that Mr. Rizuyk 
is secretary of the Odwu? 

Mr. Revttjk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And that Professor Granowsky is president of the 
organization? 

Mr. Revttjk. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it your understanding, from your acquaintance 
with the Ukrainian movement in this country, that the Hetman or- 
ganization and the Odwu are appealing to the Ukrainian population 
in this country to support their purposes? 

Mr. Revttjk. Yes, sir ; they are. 

Mr. Matthews. And they have, at least, a potential following, you 
might say, of 800,000 Ukrainian people in the United States? 

Mr. Revttjk. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What do you mean by "potential"? Do you mean 
that there are seven or eight thousand members? 

Mr. Matthews. That is the group to which these organizations make 
their special appeals. 

Mr. Revtck. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Their objectives are similar in that both aim at the 
national reconstruction of the Ukrainian state? 

Mr. Revttjk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know what the membership of the Odwu is? 

Mr. Revttjk. I have no way of finding out, but I can give it approxi- 
mately. 

The Chairman. How can you approximate it, if you do not know ? 

Mr. Revttjk. By observing the people, or by observing how many 
people come to their meetings and conventions. 

The Chairman. You have seen them? 

Mr. Revttjk. Not lately in conventions, but I have heard of them. 

The Chairman. It seems to me that is farfetched. You are basing 
an opinion on something that you do not know about, and we do not 
want to have that kind of testimony. Do you know whether it is a 
large membership or a small membership? 

Mr. Revttjk. I think it is a small membership. 

Mr. Matthews. From your acquaintance with members of the 
Odwu and your knowledge of its literature and published statements, 
do you have any information concerning its purposes? You have 
stated that it is for the national reconstruction of a Ukrainian state. 
What would you say was its present ideology? 

Mr. Revttjk. Its present ideology is somewhat different from what 
it was some time ago. At the convention in 1938 they proclaimed 
themselves to stand for authoritarianism. 

Mr. Matthews. Or totalitarianism ? 

Mr. Revttjk. Authoritarianism. 

The Chairman. In their convention, they announced that was one 
of their objectives? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes, sir. They said they would like to reconstruct 
the Ukraine state on the basis of authoritarianism. 

The Chairman. Did they ever in their resolutions use the phrase 
"fuehrership," describing it as one of their objectives? 



5264 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revyuk. They might have put it that way. They used the 
Ukrainian word for that. 

The Chairman. The Ukrainian word which means the same thing 
as leadership or "fuehrership" '. 
Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did the enunciation of those principles have any- 
thing to do with your own disinclination to associate yourself with 
the Odwu organization? 
Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you believe in the democratic system of Gov- 
ernment as set out in the Constitution of the United States? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do believe in that, and my statements for those 
principles were made in the organization and in the writings I did 
in the Ukrainian Press. 

Mr. Matthews. You stated a moment ago that there had been 
some change in the ideological position of the Odwu organization 
since its inception. When was the Odwu organization set up in the 
United States? 

Mr. Revyuk. It was set up around 1930, roughly. 
The Chairman. At that time, did it have, to your knowledge, a 
political ideology ? 

Mr. Revyuk. At that time, it was more of a revolutionary organiza- 
tion, or, rather, an American organization to support a revolutionary 
movement for a reconstructed Ukrainian state. 

Mr. Matthews. When you speak of the reconstruction of the 
Ukranian nation, do you mean the territory presently occupied by 
several European powers in which Ukranian people live? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. It was territory taken from Austria by 
Russia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Rumania. At the present time 
it is divided among three powers — Soviet Russia. Rumania, and 
Hungary. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, the Odwu's original aim was to do that by a 
revolutionary process for the reconstruction of a Ukranian state, 
but it did not have any particular political ideology? 
Mr. Revyuk. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Since its inception, however, you have noted from 
published statements and literature that it has adopted what you 
described as the authoritarian philosophy? 

Mr. Revyuk. It has gradually drifted in that direction. 
Mr. Matthews. Do you know from your acquaintance with the 
leaders of the Odwu, or from correspondence, or from published 
statements in the Ukranian press in this country, whether, or not, 
there is an international organization with which the Odwu is 
connected ? 

Mr. Revyuk. The Odwu was always claiming to be a member of an 
international movement, which has branches in various countries in 
Europe and in America. 

Mr. Matthews. What is the name of the international organiza- 
tion with which the Odwu is connected ? 

Mr. Revyuk. The name of that organization is the Organization 
of Ukraine Nationalists. 

Mr. Matthews. Thev use an abbreviation? 
Mr. Revyuk. Yes; Oun. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5265 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know where tin- international headquarters 
of the On n are '. 

Mr. Revtuk. That I cannol state from my first-hand knowledge, but 
1 snv letters from the organization. 

The Chairman. You say you have seen letters? 

Mr. Kiwi k. Those letters were posted from the headquarters, so- 
called. 

The Chairman. The letters were posted from headquarters? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes. sir; they said from headquarters. 

Mr. Matthews. Where were they posted? 

Mr. Revtuk. They were posted in Austria and Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. From what cities, or do you recall? 

Mr. Ravtuk. From Vienna and Berlin. 

Mr. Matthews. From Vienna and also from Berlin? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What is the organization known as the Provid? 

Mr. Revtuk. It means the leadership of the organization. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know where the Provid is located? 

Mr. Kevyuk. I do not know. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you seen any correspondence or statements 
with reference to the Provid? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes, sir; I saw correspondence which I described a 
moment ago. 

Mr. Mvtthews. Coming from Germany? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes, sir; from Vienna and Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. This international organization is known as the 
leadership or the executive committe. That is known as the Provid? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Mattheavs. And the headquarters, to your knowledge, having 
seen correspondence, are in Germany at the present time? 

Mr. Revtuk. That is what I have to infer. 

Mr. Matthews. You have seen correspondence sent to it from this 
>ide? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What do you know about any money raised in the 
United States in support of the Gun? 

Mr. Revtuk. The organization of the Ukraine International issues 
a p| teals to Americans of Ukrainian descent to support them by their 
contributions, and that money is usually sent to my organization, the 
United Ukrainian Organizations of the United States, so we may 
transmit the money to the addresses indicated by them. 

Mr. Matthews. What addresses have they indicated? 

Mr. Revtuk. T remember some of them. One indicated the address 
of a man — I think it was Sedvma in Danzig, which was then a free 
city. 

Air. Matthews. I)j,| you transmit the funds to Danzig? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. From you personally? 

Mr. Revti k. From the organization. 'the United Ukrainian Organ- 
izations. Then, so far as I remember, money was also sent to Mr. 
Lachovich in London. Then it was sent to Mr. Selesko. in Amster- 
dam, Holland. Those are the addresses, I remember. 

Mr. Matthews: Who i^ Mr. Lachovich? 



5266 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revyuk. Mr. Lachovitch at the present time is one of the asso- 
ciate editors of Svoboda. 

Mr. Matthews. One of your colleagues on the newspaper? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. About how much money did you transmit in any 
single year to those individuals on behalf of the Odwu organization ? 

Mr. Revyuk. In various years various sums. Last year it was 
about $20,000. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever transmitted to them more than 
that in any single year? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not think so. I do not remember. 

Mr. Matthews. Altogether, you have some idea of how much 
money you have transmitted to those agents abroad within the past 
few years? 

Mr. Revyuk. I have no idea. 

Mr. Matthews. How much in the past 12 months? 

Mr. Revyuk. In the past 12 months, about $20,000. 

The Chairman. For how many years have they been transmitting 
those funds? 

Mr. Revyuk. We have transmitted them since we came into existence 
in 1923, before this organization started, and when they came into 
being. 

The Chairman. That was what year ? 

Mr. Revyuk. About 1930. 

Mr. Voorhis. As I understand it, appeals for funds would go out 
from the Odwu. They were the people who asked for the money, but 
when they asked for it, they told the people to send it to you? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. And you sent it. Who told you where you were to 
send it ? How did you find out where to send it ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Usually the organization, the Odwu, told us to whom 
to send it. 

Mr. Voorhis. Wh} 7 did the people want the money sent through you ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Because we have been established for some time. We 
were known as being very honest transmitters of funds. 

Mr. Voorhis. Do you believe that they think they would have a bet- 
ter chance of collecting the money if it is sent through you ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Perhaps that would be. 

Mr. Matthews. You stated that you had sent approximately $20,000 
during the past 12 months. Do you mean that you sent $20,000 for 
political agitation in Europe ? 

Mr. Revyuk. It was sent to Provid for political purposes. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you transmitted any money for any other 
purpose than political agitation to any agencies abroad? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. How much ? 

Mr. Revyuk. In the last year we have — I cannot say exactly, but 
we have sent perhaps as much as this sum for other purposes, such 
as the support of war veterans of Ukrainian descent in Poland, for the 
support of private Ukrainian schools in Poland, for hospitals, and for 
some churches. Some of the money went for the support of people 
who were in the Carpathian Ukraine after it was occupied; $1,000 or 
more was spent for a club for youth by the name of the George Wash- 
ington Home, in Hirst. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5267 

Mr. Matthews. Do you mean that you transmitted $20,000 or more 
for those purposes '. 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes ; that and for other purposes. 

Mr. Matthews. So you transmitted from $45,000 to $50,000, in 
addition, in the 12-month period for all purposes? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I would like, if I may, to interject here to say that 
my intention has been called to a story published in the Herald this 
morning, signed by Eugene Warren, who undertook to interview me 
yesterday. When I refused to give any statement other than I had 
previously given, much to my surprise, he has attributed to me a state- 
ment for which he had no authority whatever. I want that statement 
to appear in the record. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you identify the name of the official publica- 
tion of the Odwu ? 

Mr. Revtuk. The name of the official publication at first was the 
Visnyk. That is the official publication of the Odwu. 

Mr. Matthews. Which means 

Mr. Revtuk. Message of the Odwu. Later it was the Nationalist. 
Since the last convention, which was held in 1939, it is the Ukrainian. 

Mr. Matthews. The Ukrainian is the present name? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes, sir. They have also another publication, the 
Trident, which is a monthly publication. 

Mi-. Matthews. That is a monthly magazine? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is the editor of the Ukrainian? 

Mr. Revtuk. The editor of the Ukrainian in Vladimir Dushnyk. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether he has any other occupation? 

Mr. Revtuk. I think he is a student in the Columbia University. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know that? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Is Mr. Dushnyk an American citizen? 

Mr. Revtuk. That I do not know, but I think he is not. 

Mi-. Matthews. When did he come to the United States? 

Mr. Revtuk. He came to the United States at the end of 1934 or the 
beginning of 1935. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever seen any articles from Dushnyk in 
his publication? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall an article in which he said that he 
had ever been arrested in Belgium? Do you recall such an article? 

Mr. Revtuk. No, sir. I recall only that the Congress of Ukrainian 
Youth League of Newark, N. J., in one of the addresses at the con- 
vein ion stated that Mr. Dushnyk, under his own name, in his own 
publication, stated that he had some trouble in Belgium. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the trouble? 

Mr. Revtuk. I think he was suspected and arrested as being a 
German spy. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a copy of the Svoboda. 

Mr. Revtuk. That is the paper of which I am the associate editor 
and manager. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, on this page is a statement signed by Mr. 
Vladimir Dushnyk. 



5268 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revyuk. There is here an article entitled "Current Immigra- 
tion in Belgium." « 

Mr. Matthews. Does it say here lie was arrested as a German spy 
in Belgium? 

Mr. Revyuk. He says the police have arrested two students, 
Dushnyk and Protzyshyn. 

Mr. Matthews. As German spies? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes ; they say as agents of Hitler. 

The Chairman. What is the connection there? 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Dushnyk is the editor of the official organ of 
Odwu, and that organ is known as 

The Chairman. Is that published in the United States? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; it is published in the United States. 

Mr. Revyuk. In New York City. 

Mr. Matthews. In Mr. Revyuk's own paper there is an article 
over — is this an article by Mr. Dushnyk? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; there is the name, Vladimir Dushnyk, signed to 
the article. 

Mr. Matthews. In which he himself states he was arrested in 
Belgium as an agent of Hitler. 

The Chairman. He is the head of the newspaper for this organi- 
zation, the Odwu. 

Mr. Revyuk. That is the post he held. 

The Chairman. That is the official paper of the organization? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

The Chairman. And over his own signature he admits he was 
arrested in Belgium as an agent of Hitler? 

Mr. Matthews. That is correct. 

Mr. Revyuk, will you please tell us again who the editor of your 
own paper is ? 

Mr. Revyuk. The editor in chief is Dr. Luke Myshuha. 

Mr. Matthews. And Mr. Lachovitch is an associate editor? 

Mr. Revyuk. Mr. Lachovitch is an associate editor. 

Mr. Matthews. On the paper with you. And he is an official of 
the Odwu organization, Mr. Revyuk. 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not think that he is. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether he ever was or not? 

Mr. Revyuk. Some time ago, some 3 years ago. when he came from 
Europe he was referred to as an officer. 

The Chairman. How was he referred to? Let us not have any 
testimony that will hurt somebody. 

Mr. Revyuk. Everybody in the office called him that. So the 
members of the Odwu call him that. too. 

The Chairman. You heard it? 

Mr. Revyuk. I heard them say it. 

Mr. Matthews. As a liaison officer between Odwu in this country 
and Provid in Germany. Is that it ? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know whether he was referred to as liaison 
officer. 

Mr. Matthews. You have identified copies of the Ukrainian press 
service in the United States. At this time we will have a copy of the 
paper you have just referred to marked as an exhibit. 

(The copy of the paper referred to was marked "Revyuk Exhibit 
No. 1.") 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5269 

Mr. Matthews. I show you some press releases in the Ukrainian 
Language. [Showing paper to witness.] 
Mr. Revyttk. That is correct. 

(The press releases referred to were marked "Revyuk Exhibits 
Nos. 2 to 6, inclusive.") 

Mr. Matthews. Are those services received by the Ukrainian press 
in the United States? 
Mr. Revyuk. They are. 

Mr. Matthews. Do they emanate from abroad ? 
Mr. Revyuk. It says this is the Ukrainian press service, Ukrainian 
edition, from Germany — Berlin. 

Mr. Matthews. And the date line is Berlin? 
Mr. Revyuk. There are also some in German. 
Mr. Matthews. And also some in French. 
The Chairman. Will yon describe what that is? 
Mr. Matthews. These are press releases of the Ukrainian press serv- 
ice in Germany, received by the Ukrainian press in this country. 
The Chairman. Sent from where? 
Mr. Matthews. Sent from Berlin. 

The Chairman. Those are press releases they sent to Ukrainian 
newspapers in this country? 

Mr. Revyuk. To Ukrainian newspapers. 
The Chairman. All Ukrainian newspapers? 
Mr. Revyuk. All Ukrainian newspapers. 

The Chairman. How many Ukrainian newspapers do you have in 
this country? 

Mr. Revyuk. About 10. 

The Chairman. These press releases come regularly to all Ukrainian 
newspapers \ 

Mr. Revyuk. Perhaps they eliminate those whom they know surely 
would not publish them. 

The Chairman. Do some of the papers use the material in those press 
releases '. 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes: some of them use it. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk. will you please translate the caption 
from this press release? 

Mr. Revyuk. The caption is "Hitler." and then it says "sympathizes 
with the Slovaks. Poles, Magyars, and Ukrainians." 
The Chairman. That is a direct quotation from Hitler, supposedly? 
Mi. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. That is sent by the Ukrainian press service in 
< rermany. 

The Chairman. To the 10 Ukrainian newspapers in this country? 
Mr. Matthews. That is correct. 

The Chairman. And those 10 newspapers are pretty generally read 
by Ukrainians in the United States. Does that press service come from 
( rermany \ 

Mr. Revyuk. It is dated here Berlin. 
The Chairman. That is where it always conic- from? 
Mr. Revyuk. Some of them. I think, come from other places. 
There is a French one. from a different bureau, which comes from 
Paris. 

The Chairman. Does this Provid organization have charge of 
that \ 



5270 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revyuk. That I do not know. 

Mr. Matthews. Are there branches of the Ukrainian Press Serv- 
ice in the United States, Mr. Revyuk? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know if this is a branch, but 

Mr. Matthews. How many bureaus are there in the United States ? 

Mr. Revyuk. There is one in New York, on Forty-second Street, 
and another one in Washington. 

The Chairman. Let us see if we have an understanding about the 
releases he has testified about. One is from the Odwu. What is 
the other one? 

Mr. Matthews. Hetman. 

The Chairman. Both of those organizations are in the United 
States, and the membership is composed entirely of people of Ukrain- 
ian descent, of the first and second generations. They are part of an 
international organization which has headquarters in Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. That is correct. 

The Chairman. And money has been sent by members of these or- 
ganizations to representatives of the international organization 
abroad ? 

Mr. Matthews. That was through Mr. Revyuk. 

The Chairman. In addition to that, these organizations have gone 
on record in favor of some form of authoritarian government? 

Mr. Matthews. That is correct. 

The Chairman. In addition to that, the Ukrainian newspapers 
have a regular service from Berlin. Do thej^ pay for that service, or 
is it free ? 

Mr. Revyuk. They receive it free. May I correct one thing? 

The Chairman. Yes; if your statement is not accurate. 

Mr. Revyuk. The Hetman organization was the so-called Sitch 
organization, which means fortress, which organization used to be- 
long to the United Ukrainian organization, but about 1925 or 1926 
that organization left our organization because of the differences, 
we wanted to remain a democratic organization and they wanted us 
to become a monarchistic organization, and they left us and never 
sent money to us. 

The Chairman. Your judgment is there are about a thousand 
members of that organization? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

The Chairman. Is the Odwu bigger than the Hetman ? 

Mr. Revyuk. It is somewhat bigger. 

The Chairman. Do both of them work together now ? 

Mr. Revyuk. They are at daggers drawn. 

The Chairman. One is for the restoration of the old monarchy? 

Mr. Revyuk. No; that is the Ukrainian monarchy. 

The Chairman. And the other is for some dictatorship? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

The Chairman. Does the Hetman organization work in sympathy 
with the Nazis; do they have any sympathetic feeling for the Nazis? 

Mr. Revyuk. They have. 

The Chairman. Both of them are international organizations, 
are they, or just the Odwu? 

Mr. Revyuk. The Hetman organization has also sympathizers in 
other nations in Europe, and in America. 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5271 

The Chairman. You do not know where their international 
office is? 

Mr. Revyuk. Their office is in Berlin. 

The Chairman. Then both organizations have their headquarters 
in Germany? 

Mr. Revtuk. That is right, so far as I can infer. 

Mr. Voorhis. What kind of a position are these people in right 
now, I mean these organizations seeking Ukrainian independence, 
which are located in Germany, dependent upon Hitler's support? 
How can they expect to get that in view of his agreement with 
Russia? Has not that been a confusing thing? 

Mr. Revtuk. It was a terrific blow to both of them. 

Mr. Voorhis. What do they think about it? 

Mr. Reyyttk. I have had no chance to evaluate that. I do not 
think they have had a chance to formulate their thought about it. 

Mr. Voorhis. They are just bewildered, and they do not know 
what to think about it. 

Mr. Reyytjk. No; they do not. 

Mr. Matthews. "Who is the head of the Provid, Mr. Revyuk? 

Mr. Reyyttk. The head of the Provid is now Col. Andrew Melnyk. 

Mr. Matthews. How long has he been head of Provid? 

Mr. Revyuk. He was proclaimed head of Provid in 1938, after 
the death of the first leader, Colonel Konovaletz. 

Mr. Matthews. How did Colonel Konovaletz die ? 

Mr. Revyuk. He was assassinated in May 1938 in Rotterdam, 
Holland. 

Mr. Matthews. After his assassination Col. Andrew Melnyk was 
proclaimed leader of the Provid? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did Colonel Melnyk purport to speak for all of the 
Ukrainians in the United States? Have you known of occasions on 
which Colonel Melnyk purported to speak for all the Ukrainians in 
the United States? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know of any such ocasion. 

The Chairman. Do not say anything that you do not absolutely 
know. 

Mr. Matthews. Does he purport to speak for the nationalists 
among the Ukrainians in the United States \ 

Mr. Revyuk. The nationalists refer to him as the leader of the 
nationalist movement, and also occasionall}' as leader of the entire 
Ukrainian nation, but I never heard him say anything, because I do 
not know him. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever had any reason, from other reliable 
information, to think that he claims to speak for all of the Ukrain- 
ians in this country? 

Let me ask you another question: Do you know Mr. Baranowsky? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; I know him. He is also one of the leaders, I 
think, of the Provid, one of the members of Provid. I saw letters 
signed b\ r him. 

Mr. Matthews. Where is he from, Mr. Baranowsky? 

Mr. Revtuk. At present he must be probably in Germany. 

94931 — 39 — vol. 9 2 



5272 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a document, and ask you to identify, 
first, this envelope [handing envelope to witness]. Is this envelope 
addressed to you? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; it is addressed to me. 

Mr. Matthews. What is the postmark on the envelope? 

Mr. Revyuk. The postmark is Vienna. 

Mr. Matthews. What is the date '. 

Mr. Revyuk. The date is October 17, 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. Is this the document which came to you in that 
envelope [handing document to witness] ? 

Mr. Revyuk. I think it is. 

Mr. Matthews. I will ask you to follow that while I read a trans- 
lation, and I will ask you if the translation is correct. 

The Chairman. You received this about what time? 

Mr. Matthews. It is postmarked ''October 17. 1938. r 

The Chairman. Is it postmarked Vienna? 

Mr. Matthews. This letter is addressed to him, enclosing a com- 
munication written in the Ukrainian language. 

The Chairman. Was it sent to him in any official capacity? 

Mr. Revyuk. It says only "Mr. Revyuk ST. 81-83 Grand Street, 
Jersey City, New Jersey." 

The Chairman. Go ahead and read the translation. 

Mr. Matthews. The translation reads as follows: 

COMMUNIQUE 

We do hereby bring to the notice of all the Nationalists the following resolution 
of the Inner Provid of the Ukrainian Nationalists : 

1. In accordance with the will of the late Fuehrer Eugene Konovaletz, the Inner 
Provid of the Ukrainian Nationalists proclaims Col. Andrew Melnyk head of 
the Provid of the Ukrainian Nationalists and the fuehrer of the nationalist 
movement. 

2. From today on Col. Andrew Melnyk takes into bis bands the Provid of the 
OUN, UVO (Ukrainian Military Organization), and all the organized branches 
of the nationalist movement. 

8. The head of the Ukrainian Nationalists, Col. Andrew Melnyk, convokes and 
presides over the second executive (inner) session of the Ukrainian Nationalists 
instituted by the late Fuehrer Eugene Konovaletz. 
Glory to the Ukraine ! Heil, Fuehrer ! 

For the Provid of the Ukrainian Nationalists. 

Jaroslav Baranowsky, 

Secretary. 
Headquarters, Oct. 14, 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that a correct translation of the document you 
have before you? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is correct, as to the translation of this document, 
perhaps with one exception, which is wrong, written in English. It 
says, not "the late Fuehrer," but it says "of glorious memory." 

The Chairman. With that exception, the translation is correct? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

The Chairman. What does it refer to when it speaks of the Ukrain- 
ian military organization, the UVO? 

Mr. Revyuk. The UVO was the predecessor of this Ukrainian or- 
ganization and the Ukrainian Nationalists. 

The Chairman. It is no longer in existence? 

Mr. Revyuk. Evidently it was dissolved and absorbed. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5273 

Mr. Matthews. I ask that that envelope and the translation be 
marked as exhibits. 

(The envelope, letter, and translation referred to were marked "Rev- 
yuk Exhibit No. 7."' "Revyuk Exhibit No. 8," and "Revyuk Exhibit 
No. 9," respect ively.) 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a copy of the Nationalist | handing paper 
to witness |. What is the Nationalist \ 

Mr. Revyuk. It says here it is the official organ of the Ukrainian 
Organization of Nationalists in America. 

Sir. Matthews. Is that the Odwu '. 

Mr. Revtt k. That is published by Odwu. 

Mr. Matthews. That is the official organ of Odwu? 

The Chairman. Where is that published? 

Mr. Revtuk. In New York City. 

Mr. Matthews. I will read a translation of the headline and ask 
you if that is correct : 

Lous live Hitler of the Ukraine, Colonel Andrew Melnyk. 

Is that a correct translation? 
Mr. Revttjk. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Is this a photograph of Col. Andrew Melnyk [indi- 
cating picture in the Nationalist] ? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is what it is supposed to be. It says here: 

The Fuehrer of the Ukrainian Nationalists, Colonel Andrew Melnyk. 

Mr. Matthews. Is this a public notice of the document which you 
received announcing that Col. Andrew Melnyk is the Fuehrer of the 
Ukrainian Nationalists? Is that the substance of this article? 

Mr. Revyuk:. The word is the same here. 

The Chairman. In other words, it wotdd appear that the newspaper 
got the same communication, and that this publication was based upon 
the information contained in this official notice. 

Mr. Revyuk. The first paragraph is omitted; the second paragraph 
also was omitted. 

Mr. Matthews. I ask that that paper be marked as an exhibit. 

(The newspaper referred to was marked "Revyuk Exhibit No. 10.") 

Mr. Revyuk. It also says: 

We inclose herewith for your knowledge a communique of the Provid of the 
organization of Ukrainian -Nationals. Glory to the Ukraine. Reporter of liaison. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that also in the envelope? 

Mr. Revyuk. That was in the s;nne envelope. 

Mr. Matthews. You have identified Mr. Baranowsky as the name 
of the man who sent you that communique from Germany. It is your 
understanding that Mr. Baranowsky is one of the leaders of the inner 
circle of this movement, the Oun '. 

Mr. Revyuk. That is my understanding. 

Mr. Matthews. And that Colonel Melnyk is the fuehrer for the en- 
tire organization throughout the world? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is my understanding, too. 

Mr. Matthews. In that communication I think it should be espe- 
cially noted that all of the branches, including the branches in the 
Onited States are declared to l>e subject to the directions of Colonel 
Melnvk. 



5274 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revyuk. That is a logical inference. 

Mr. Matthews. A clear statement in the communication. 

Mr. Revyuk. A clear statement. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you knowledge of Mr. Baranowsky's coming 
to this country ? Did I understand you to say that a moment ago ? 

Mr. Revyuk. He came to this country last year for the convention of 
the Odwu. 

Mr. Matthews. Where was that convention held? 

Mr. Revyuk. It was held in July 1938, in Newark, N. J. 

Mr. Matthews. Was there a demonstration of the convention held 
in New York City ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes ; after that there was a demonstration held in the 
Hippodrome Hall, New York City. 

Mr. Matthews. Did Mr. Baranowsky address that convention, or 
that demonstration ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes ; he did. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he make reference to Colonel Konovaletz as the 
fuehrer of the entire Ukrainian race, in the course of that address ? 

Mr. Revyuk. I would have to refresh my memory; I was not 
there. 

The Chairman. If you were not there, obviously you could not 
testify to what he said, unless you have a record of his speech. Do 
3 t ou have a record of his speech anywhere ? 

Mr. Revyuk. There was a record of that speech later on. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know from press reports how many persons 
attended the meeting at the Hippodrome in New York ? 

Mr. Revyuk. About 4,000 people. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have any knowledge through press reports 
or through conversations of the fact that the Nazi salute was given 
at that mass meeting at the Hippodrome? 

Mr. Revyuk. People told me that there was indignation that the 
Fascist salute was given at that meeting. 

The Chairman. It seems to me we had testimony last year that 
these organizations meet with the bund, that there is a direct tie-up 
between the Hetman organization, where members met with the 
bund. Do you know anything about that? Do they work with 
Fritz Kuhn and the bund ? 

Mr. Revyuk. I have no knowledge of such facts. I know I heard 
tha the Hetman organization worked with the bund in Chicago. 

Mr. Matthews. I would like to ask Mr, Revyuk if he not only 
heard from persons in conversation that the Nazi salute was given at 
this Hippodrome mass meeting, but also that it was published in the 
Ukraine papers that that was done? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes ; there was a great deal of controversy about this, 
and the management of that meeting was attacked in the Ukraine 
press for permitting such a demonstration. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it correct that this man Baranowsky who came 
from Europe was appointed a member of the nominating committee 
of the national convention of the Odwu, held in Newark, N. J. Do 
you know whether that is true? Did you read such a statement? 

Mr. Revyuk. I read the statement in the paper. 

Mr. Matthews. In the Nationalist? 

Mr. Revyuk. In the Nationalist ; yes. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5275 

Mr. Matthews. Did it strike you as extraordinary and improper 
that one coming from Germany representing Provid should sit on the 
nominating committee for this American organization? 

Mr. Revyuk. Well, it is extraordinary. 

Mr. Matthews. Yet that was a matter of some controversy, you 
say ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; people naturally discussed it; that is how I 
remember it. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it generally understood among Ukrainians 
that Mr. Baranowsky brought considerable influence to bear upon 
that nominating committee by virtue of the fact that he was also a 
member of Provid? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is how people generally reasoned about it. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever heard the name of Capt. Riko Yary ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; there is such a man who lives in Germany and 
belongs among the leaders of the inner circle, the inner circle of the 
leaders, the organization of the Ukrainian Nationalists. 

Mr. Matthews. Of Provid in Germany? 

Mr. Revyuk. Of Provid. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it generally understood, to your knowledge, that 
Captain Yary is a member of Provid ? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is the general understanding. 

Mr. Matthews. Is there any information you have, or understand- 
ing from Ukrainians, that Captain Yary is the liaison between the 
Provid in Germany and the War Ministry of the Nazi Government ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Well, I have heard such a statement made. 

Mr. Matthews. By informed persons? 

The Chairman. By who ? 

Mr. Matthews. By informed persons among Ukrainians. 

The Chairman. That looks rather indefinite. Who were the per- 
sons you heard say that ? 

Mr. Revyuk. One was Levitsky, who is editor of the Narodna Vola. 
He lived a long time in Berlin, and he warned me against any dealings 
with the organization because that organization is in close contact with 
the War Ministry of Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. That is one of the sources of your information on 
that point? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. I told him, why doesn't he publish that in the 
press? He said, "We wrote it already in our paper and we are still 
going to write it in our paper, publicly." 

Mr. Matthews. You have also testified, I believe, that the Hetman 
organization has its ultimate headquarters in Berlin; is that correct? 

Mr. Revyuk. They have. 

Mr. Matthews. So that the real distinction between these two 
organizations of Ukrainians is that one is furthering a Nazi ideology 
and the other a royalist movement. 

Mr. Revyuk. Hetman stands for hereditary monarchy and the other 
organization, according to its proclamation of 1938, stands for authori- 
tarianism. 

Mr. Matthews. And both of them head up in Germany; is that 
correct \ 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

The Chairman. Let me ask you this question. Over the period 
since 1923 has there been considerable money raised among Ukrain- 
ians and sent abroad? 



5276 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revyuk. We sent on the average yearly between twenty and 
thirty thousand dollars. 

The Chairman. Would that be the total amount ? 

Mr. Reyvuk. The total amount for all purposes, about twenty to 
thirty thousand dollars a year. 

The Chairman. And you have been sending that since 1923? 

Mr. Revyuk. 1923. 

The Chairman. How is that raised, by contributions? 

Mr. Revyuk. By contributions, by voluntary contributions. 

The Chairman. You do not assess the Ukrainians any definite 
amount. 

Mr. Revyuk. No; we do not. 

Mr. Voorhis. Did you ever send any of that money to the Russian 
Ukraine ? 

Mr. Revyuk. During the famine of 1932 and 1933 we tried to send 
money there for the purpose of support of those people. 

The Chairman. To whom did yon send it. to some agency in the 
United States, some Russian agency? 

Mr. Revyuk. We sent it through private channels. 

Mr. Voorhis. Do you know anything about what happened to it, 
whether it got to where you were trying to send it? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is what we believe, that they really got it, but 
we do not have any proofs of it. Therefore, that whole movement 
petered out. Nobody believed in it, that it could be done effectively. 

The Chairman. No one believed that the money ever got there? 

Mr. Revyuk. Ever got there, or perhaps nobody was really sure of 
it, that it got there. 

The Chairman. Nobody was sure who got the money, and that is 
the reason you stopped sending it? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

The Chairman. 'What private agency did you get to do that, the 
Amtorg ? 

Mr. Revyuk. No; we did not. We contacted only private people 
who were, in a way, opposed to the Soviet Government, and who had 
connections, claimed to have connections. 

The Chairman. Were they Communists? 

Mr. Revyuk. No; they were not Communists. Our organization 
has always been anti-Communist. 

The Chairman. Then how in the world did they have connections 
in Russia ? 

Mr. Revyuk. They had connections through private families. 

The Chairman. Just had private couriers to take the money over 
there ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Private people; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk, do you know of any organization in 
this country among the Ukrainians initiated and controlled by the 
Communists of the United States? 

Mr. Revyuk. Why, yes, there is a Communist organization in this 
country, a Communist branch of the Communist Party — that is, a 
Ukrainian branch. It has a publication — a daily. 

Mr. Matthews. A daily newspaper? 

Mr. Revyuk. A daily newspaper, in New York City. 

Mr. Matthews. What is the name of the newspaper? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5277 

Mr. Revyuk. The Ukrainian Visty, the Ukrainian News. 

Mi'. Matthews. Is that Communist organization among the Ukrain- 
ians opposed to 11h> Hetman and the Odwu? 

Mr. Revyuk. Well 

Mr. Matthews. Let us say in the past has it been? 

Mr. Revyuk. In the |>;i<t ; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. In the pas< they have been? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know how they stand now. 

The Chairman. You mean prior to this Soviet-Nazi combination. 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

The Chairman. They were very much opposed to each other? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Were they bitterly opposed to each other? 

Mr, Revyuk. They were bitterly opposed to each other and to us y 
too. 

The Chairman. How many Ukrainians did you say belonged to it, 
to that branch? 

Mr. Revyuk. I have no idea. I think now it is very small. 

The Chairman. Did it at one time become fairly large? 

Mr. Revyuk. It was very big right after the war, when the 
Ukraine struggle for independence failed and then Russia was com- 
ing to Poland and promising to liberate the Ukrainians from Poland. 
At that time it was strong. But when Russia divided the Ukraine 
with Poland 

The Chairman. Russia lost her influence among the Ukrainians in 
this country '. 

Mr. Revyuk. That is correct. 

The Chairman. Then Hitler began to get that influence? 

Mr. Revyuk. Gradually; later on. 

The Chairman. And now you think that neither one has it? 

Mr. Revyuk. Neither one. 

Mr. Voorhis. Have you any indication at all of any attempts to 
bring together this Communist Ukrainian organization and these 
other two organizations, since this pact has been signed? 

Mr. Revyuk. Xo. 

Mr. Voorhis. Y^ou do not know what has happened? 

Mr. Revyuk. Xo. And I do not think there is such a thing. 

Mr. Voorhis. You do not think so? 

Mr. Revyuk. Xo. 

Mr. Matthews. The Communist Party does consider this Ukrain- 
ian group sufficiently important to publish a daily newspaper for it, 
and the Ukrainians it may reach. 

Mr. Revyuk. It does. 

Mr. Voorhis. Do you suppose that the daily newspaper is self-sup- 
porting? 

Mr. Revyuk. T do not think so. 

Mr. Voorhis. Yon do not know anything about how it pays its 
way? 

Mr. Revyuk. T think it cannot be. to judge by how many people 
read it. how often I see it among the people. I do not think such a 
paper can maintain itself. 

Mi'. Matthews. Yon know something about publication costs your- 
self? 



5278 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Because you publish a daily newspaper. 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Is your newspaper subsidized by any political 
group ? 

Mr. Revyuk. No. It is maintained by subscriptions. 

Mr. Matthews. By what organization? 

Mr. Revyuk. We are publishing the Svoboda as the official organ 
of the Ukrainian national organization, which is a fraternal benefit 
order with headquarters at Jersey City, N. J. Each member of that 
organization pays to the organization 30 cents a month for it. We 
have a certain arrangement with that organization. That is how we 
publish the paper. 

The Chairman. It is an insurance association? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is there anything political about it? 

Mr. Revyuk. It is a fraternal benefit insurance organization. 

The Chairman. No politics in it? 

Mr. Revyuk. No politics in it. 

The Chairman. You never get together before an election and 
decide whom to vote for, or anything of that sort ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Well 

Mr. Matthews. I think we should have some very frank testimony 
from Mr. Revyuk on this point. You say this Svoboda newspaper is 
supported by an insurance organization? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. It is owned by an insurance organization? 

Mr. Revyuk. It was owned, but about a year ago, in 1937, in De- 
cember, it became independent. A publishing company was organ- 
ized, the Ukrainian Press & Book Co., which took over the publica- 
tion of that paper. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who owns the stock in that book 
company ? 

Mr. Revyuk. The Ukrainian Association — the Ukrainian National 
Association. 

Mr. Matthews. Which is the insurance company? 

Mr. Revyuk. The insurance company. 

Mr. Matthews. So that the insurance company owns the news- 
paper ? 

Mr. Revyuk. And yet we are an independent organization. 

Mr. Matthews. If the insurance company owns the stock in the 
company that owns the newspaper, it appears to me that the insur- 
ance company owns the newspaper. What is the distinction you are 
trying to draw? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know much about the legal side of that, how 
to explain that. We are an independent company under a contract 
with the Ukrainian National Association. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean you have an independent charter? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. You are a corporation? 

Mr. Revyuk. A corporation; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And this corporation has stock and the stock is 
owned by the insurance company? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; most of it. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5279 

Mr. Matthews. A majority of the stock? 

Mr. Revyuk. A majority of the stock. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know how much of the stock is owned by 
the insurance company? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not remember; no. 

Mr. M att hews. Did you say that the Svoboda does or does not 
have a political viewpoint? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; it has a political viewpoint. 

Mr. Matthews. And is that political viewpoint determined by the 
insurance company or by the editor in chief of the newspaper? * 

Mr. Revyuk. Before the Ukrainian Press & Book Co. took over the 
publication, the body that controlled the policy of the paper was the 
Ukrainian National Association. But nowadays Ave control the policy, 
the Ukrainian Press & Book Co. 

Mr. Matthews. It not the editor in chief Dr. Myshuha ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes ; he is the head, and he is responsible for the policy 
of the paper. 

Mr. Matthews. Are not his political views reflected in the editorials 
and in the columns of the newspaper? 

Mr. Revyuk. They are. 

Mr. Matthews. And he is associated with this Odwu organization, 
I believe ? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know if he is a member of the organization. 
That I do not know. 

Mr. Matthews. We will come to that later. Now, getting back to 
these two organizations, the Hetman and the Odwu, both of which 
you state head up in Germany, from your knowledge of the totali- 
tarian state of Germany today, would you say it is a reasonable conclu- 
sion that any organization which heads up in Germany must exist 
there by permission of the Nazi Government? 

Mr. Revyuk. I think it is reasonable. 

Mr. Matthews. And if by the permission of the Nazi Government, 
with the approval of the Nazi Government? 

Mr. Revyuk. I think so. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that considered to be true among the Ukrainians 
in this country, that the Nazi Government approves of the objectives 
of these two organizations, because they head up in Germany? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know whether all the people realize that. 
There must be many people who do not realize that. 

Mr. Matthews. But nevertheless they support the organization. 

Mr. Revyuk. They support the organization. Some of them sup- 
port it without knowing that. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, you think some of them are duped 
into supporting these organizations? 

Mr. Revyuk. Well — if you say so. 

Mr. Matthews. Have other individuals come over from Germany to 
attend the gatherings of the Odwu, to your knowledge? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; now and then others came. Mr. Hrybivsky was 
one of them. Colonel Konovaletz was one of them. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please identify Mr. Hrybivsky? 

Mr. Revyuk. He was here on several occasions. He is also one of 
the inner circle of the Provid. 

Mr. Matthews. And he has come from Germany? 

Mr. Revyuk. Another man who came here is Sushko, and Dr. 
Kandyba. 



5280 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk, here is another copy of the Nation- 
alist, the official publication of the Odwu. I show you a photograph 
of a gathering of the Oclwu. Where was this held ? 

Mr. Revyuk. That was held in New York. It says here "The 
members of the Second Congress of the Ukrainian Nationalists of 
America, September 3, 4, 5, 1938, New York, N. Y." 

Mr. Matthews. The members of the congress? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; or participants. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recognize this gentleman [indicating on 
newspaper] ? 

The Chairman. What were they members of? 

Mr. Revyuk. The Second Congress. 

The Chairman. Of what ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Of the Ukrainian Nationalists of America. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recognize this man? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. This is Baronowsky. 

Mr. Matthews. From the Provid? 

Mr. Revyuk. From the Provid. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recognize this man [indicating] ? 

Mr. Revyuk. This is General Kurmanovich. 

Mr. Matthews. And who is General Kurmanovich? 

Mr. Revyuk. He is also one of the members of the Provid, as I 
understand. 

Mr. Matthews. And who is this man [indicating photograph] % 

Mr. Revyuk. This is Sushko. 

Mr. Matthews. Is he a member of the Provid? 

Mr. Revyuk. He is also a member of the Provid. 

Mr. Matthews. And these three men who occupy the front row, 
middle, are from abroad and are attending this congress as members? 

Mr. Revyuk. Apparently from the photograph, that is right. 

Mr. Matthews. I ask that this be made an exhibit and a part of 
the record. 

(The newspaper referred to was marked "Revyuk 12.") 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know a Mr. Eugene Skotzko? 

Mr. Revyuk. I know him personally. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is Mr. Eugene Skotzko? 

Mr. Revyuk. Mr. Eugene Skotzko used to be the organizer of the 
Odwu and he is now the head of the press service of the Ukrainian 
Bureau in Washington, D. C. 

Mr. Matthews. Where is Mr. Skotzko, in Washington now? 

Mr. Revyuk. He lives in Washington. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who finances the press bureau estab- 
lished here? 

Mr. Revyuk. I can say only what I know from my personal 
knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. All right. 

Mr. Revyuk. The United Ukrainian Organizations gave Mr. 
Skotzko monthly a check, on the recommendation of the Odwu, to 
the amount of two to three hundred dollars, for the maintenance of 
this bureau. That is out of the money that is collected for the 
liberation of the Ukraine fund. 

Mr. Voorhis. You mean that that conies out of this money that you 
mentioned earlier in your testimony? 



EN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5281 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes. 

Mr. Vooinns. Which was solicited by the Odwu but sent to you? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. And von have had instruct ions to send a part of that 
money down here to help finance this press bureau? 

Mr. Revtuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. How long ago was this Ukrainian press bureau 
established ( 

Mr. Revtuk. A few months ago, 1 think. 

Mr. Matthews. Just a few months ago? 

Mr. Revtuk. A few months ago. 

Mr. Matthews. Was the New York bureau recently established? 

Mr. Revtuk. The New York bureau was established, for some 
time, I think '2 years ago or more. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything about Mr. Skotzko's visit to 
Europe? 

Mr. Revtuk. Mr. Skotzko went to Europe in 1938, some time in the 
summer, I think. I am not sure of that, but I think in the summer 
of 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. The press bureau was established prior to his going 
to Europe — the New York bureau? 

Mr. Revtuk. The New York bureau; oh, yes; much prior to that. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall the question being raised concerning 
the establishment of this Ukrainian Press Service at one of the meet- 
ings of the United Ukrainian Organizations? 

Mr. Revyuk. That question referred to the New York bureau. 

Mr. Matthews. What was that question ? 

Mi-. Revtuk. We were discussing a year ago at the annual meeting 
of the officers of the United Ukrainian Organizations the problem of 
establishing a bureau of information of our own, and somebody asked 
a question : u Now, you know already there is an information bureau 
in New York City. Would it be Avise for the United Ukrainian Or- 
ganizations to support that bureau?" 

As I did not know anything about the bureau, about the maintenance 
of that bureau. I asked the people, the officers present, to volunteer some 
information about that bureau, how it is maintained, and nobody vol- 
unteered information. 

Mr. Matthews. No one volunteered information ? 

Mr. Revtuk. No one volunteered information. Only later, outside 
of the meeting, they said some things. 

Mr. Matthews. They said some things to you ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. They said, "We know about the bureau." I said, 
"Why didn't you say what you knew?" 

Mr. Matthews. What did they say outside of the meeting about the 
maintenance of the bureau? 

Mr. Revtuk. Well, they told me — they gave me to understand — that 
that bureau was organized by Mr. Hrybivsky during his presence in 
this country, his visit in this country, and it seems to me that the 
Leaders of Odwu here in this country were very much dissatisfied that 
that bureau was organized from Europe over their heads. 

Mr. Matthews. By Provid? 

Mr. Revtuk. By Provid. 

Mr. Matthews. And maintained by Provid? 

Mr. Revyuk. That was my understanding. 



5282 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. That is what they told you outside of the meeting? 

Mr. Kevtuk. That is what I was made to understand. 

Mr. Voorhis. Was this the New York press bureau ? 

Mr. Revyuk. The Ukrainian Press Bureau in New York. 

The Chairman. And it was organized by this man who came from 
Germany ? 

Mr. Matthews. That is right, as a member of the Provid, 2 years 
ago. 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes ; about 2 years ago, or more. 

Mr. Matthews. And maintained financially by the Provid in 
Germany ? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is what my understanding was from the in- 
formation they gave me. 

The Chairman. Have you examined the releases put out by this 
bureau to determine if they were mostly Nazi propaganda? 

Mr. Matthews. You see these releases regularly, do you not, Mr. 
Revyuk ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Well, we were receiving those releases, but I was not 
reading them. I was not getting them, because they went to the 
editor in chief. 

The Chairman. Did you ever read any of them? 

Mr. Revyuk. Occasionally some came into my hands. 

The Chairman. Were the releases largely favorable to the Nazi 
Government, favorable to Hitler? 

Mr. Revyuk. Well, whenever they spoke, or had occasion to speak 
about it, they were favorable to Hitler. 

The Chairman. You never saw any criticism of Hitler? 

Mr. Revyuk. No. 

The Chairman. Or of the Nazis ? 

Mr. Revyuk. No criticisms of Hitler. 

The Chairman. Whenever some of these releases had occasion to 
present some news matter, it was always presented from a favorable 
light, if it had to do with Hitler? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. That is why this bureau was generally crit- 
icized for that attitude. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that bureau in New York under the direction 
of Mr. Skotzko? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not think it is now under the direction of Mr. 
Skotzko, because Mr. Skotzko is now in Washington. My impression 
is that the man connected with the bureau is Mr. Lapica. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it a branch of the Washington office ? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know whether it is a branch. 

The Chairman. Do you remember his secretary who resigned re- 
cently ? You know he had a secretary there in the bureau ? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know anything about it ; no. 

The Chairman. You do not know about the secretary resigning, and 
giving as a reason because they were putting out Nazi propaganda? 

Mr. Revyuk. In New York ? 

The Chairman. Here in Washington. 

Mr. Revyuk. No ; I do not know anything about that. 

Mr. Matthews. You say Mr. Lapica is in charge of the New York 
office? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is what I understand ; I am not sure of it. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5283 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not he does or has worked 
for Mr. Skotzko? 

Mr. Revyuk. That I do not know. 

Mr. Matthews. I understand Mr. Lapica was interviewed by the 
committee last year and stated for the record that he was in the employ 
of Mr. Skotzko. 

The Chairman. Have there been any translations of these press- 
bureau releases that we have to show the type of releases that were 
being put out? 

Mr. Matthews. We read one statement from the Berlin Press Bu- 
reau Service in which Hitler was quoted as favoring the cause of the 
Ukrainians, among others. 

The Chairman. Champion of the oppressed. Have you translated 
any of the others ? 

Mr. Matthews. Have you made available any other translations? 

Mr. Revytjk. I just saw this release here. I did not pay attention 
much to them. 

The Chairman. This $20,000 that went over to this international 
group, that was to finance the international organization, was it not ? 

Mr. Revytjk. They have it for their free disposal. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk, you have indicated that the Odwu has 
its headquarters in Berlin, and the Provid, and you have stated that 
Professor Granovsky is the president of the Odwu in the United 
States. Do you know whether Professor Granovsky has registered 
with the State Department as an agent of a foreign principal? 

Mr. Revyuk. I know only what Professor Granovsky said he did. 
I do not know whether he really did or not. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he say anything to you about it ? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes. At a certain meeting in Jersey City, in the 
presence of several people, in the office of the Svoboda. 

Mr. Matthews. Who were some of the other persons present ? 

Mr. Revytjk. Members of the staff of the newspaper and some offi- 
cers of the Ukrainian National Association. 

Mr. Matthews. Was Mr. Myshuha present ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Mr. Myshuha was present. 

Mr. Matthew's. What did Professor Granovsky tell you on that 
occasion? 

Mr. Revyuk. He discussed the problem of registering the Odwu 
Avith the State Department, and he said that he went to the Depart- 
ment of State to register, to find out whether he should register or 
not, and he was given a blank by the Department of State, which he 
rilled out. He was told, after the blank was filled out, that he did not 
have to register. That is what he said he was told. 

Mr. Matthew t s. On the basis of what he had told the State Depart- 
ment, he was advised that he did not need to register? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Was any comment made by members of the group 
to whom he made these statements concerning his act of providing the 
State Department with any information? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. There was a comment made. I think Mr. 
Myshuha said that it was a silly thing to do. 

Mr. Matthews. A sillv thing to do? 



5284 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes. "If I w.ere him, I would not have done it. I 
would not have gone to Washington and put anything in writing, 
because I may be later on faced with that statement." 

Mr. Matthews. Was that view expressed by others ? 

Mr. Revtuk. I think that was more or less the general impression. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall anything that Dr. Myshuha said on 
the subject? 

Mr. Revtuk. I think he also agreed with that. 

The Chairman. It seems to me there is a clear case for the Depart- 
ment of State of an agent of a foreign principal who failed to reg- 
ister, and I would suggest that this transcript be made available to 
the Department of State with a recommendation that they proceed 
against these people for failure to register. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I have here a memorandum from 
the State Department dated September 13, 1938, from the Department 
of Registration of Agents of Foreign Principals, addressed to Mr. 
Green, which reads as follows : 

September 13, 1938. 

Mr. Green : Mr. A. A. Granovsky, who gave bis address as 2101 Scudder Ave.. 
St. Paul, Minn., and who stated that he was president of the Organization for the 
Rebirth of Ukraine, visited the office this afternoon to inquire respecting the 
application of the act of June 8, 1938, requiring the registration of agents of 
foreign principals. 

He said that the organization of which he is president was entirely self-sup- 
porting, that it received no compensation from any foreign principals, and was 
neither under the direction of nor agent of any foreign principal. He said that 
the organization was composed of American citizens of Ukraine birth who were 
engaged in propaganda work in this country designed to assist the Ukrainians in 
their efforts to establish an independent state. 

I informed Mr. Granovsky that it would appear from what he said that the 
organization in question was nut the "agent of a foreign principal" as that term 
is defined in the act, and that the organization would not, therefore, be required 
to register under the provisions of the act. I suggested, however, that he submit 
to the Department a detailed statement concerning the activities of his organiza- 
tion and request a ruling on the question of its obligations under the act. Mr. 
Granovsky said he would follow this suggestion. 

L. H. Price. 

There is another communication dated October 11, 1938, as follows: 

My De a r Mr. Granovsky: I acknowledge with appreciation the receipt of your 
letter of October 5, 1938, transmitting to the Department certain information in 
regard to the Organization for the Rebirth of Ukraine, of which you are president. 
In view of the fact that your registration statement declares that you have 
no foreign principal, it has not been accepted for filing. If. in fact, you are not 
under 1 the direction of. and do not receive compensation from, any foreign princi- 
pal, you would not appear to be subject to the requirement of registration under 
the act of June 8, 1938, requiring the registration of agents of foreign principals. 
I am. therefore, returning herewith the registration statement enclosed with your 
letter. 

I may add that the above informal opinion is expressed merely as a courtesy to 
you. The Department does not rule officially on such matters. 
Sincerely yours, 

Joseph C. Green, 
Chief. Officer of Arms and Munitions Control, 

For the Secretary of State. 

Here is a letter from Alexander A. Granovsky, dated October 5, 
1938, addressed to the Department of State. Washington, D. C. 

Gentlemen : While in Washington on September 13, 1938. I inquired about the 
recent law in regard to registration of persons interested in other countries or 
people. I had an opportunity to talk with Mr. Price in Room 359'/^. After ex- 
plaining to him my interests and contacts, he informed me that since I am not 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5285 

subsidized by any foreign agency, and since the organization, Central Executive 
Committee of Odwu, which I represent is likewise nol in service of any foreign 
principal, we do nol need to register. However, he recommended 1<> me to fill out 
the blank so that your office may have pertinenl information on file. I am glad 
in comply with this request. 

I shall greatly appreciate ii if yon will be kind enough to Inform me if I per- 
sonally, or the organization I represent, are required to register and further to 
comply with the Registration Law in question. 
Sincerely yours. 

(Signed) Alexander A. Granovsky. 

For the record, Mr. Chairman, I think it would be well to have the 
application also. 

The Chairman. Docs he swear to the application; is it sworn to? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; it is made under oath. 

(The registration statement of Alexander A. Granovsky was 
marked as an exhibit.) 

Mr. Matthews. Now. Mr. Revyuk, you have testified that members 
of the group that Professor Granovsky represented in Newark 

Mr. Revyuk. In Jersey City. 

Mr. Matthews. Jersey City were of the opinion he was silly for 
having put this in writing where it might be used against him at 
some subsequent date. 

Mr. Revyuk. That was correct : that was a remark that was made. 

Mr. Matthews. The records, so far as you know them from your 
own first-hand knowledge, indicates the Odwu organization is 
an agency of the Provid headed by Colonel Melnyk, who probably has 
his headquarters in Berlin? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is correct, except as to Berlin; I do not know 
about that. 

Mr. Matthews. In Germany? 

Mr. Revyuk. In Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. Abroad. 

Mr. Revyuk. Abroad. 

Mr. Matthews. At least it is abroad? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. You have received communications from Germany? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Indicating the Provid has its headquarters there? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And the communication that we read into the 
record indicates the Odwu is a branch of the Provid under the 
direction of Colonel Melnyk? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is correct, 

Mr. Matthews. Now you say that you have been supporting to 
some extent the press bureau. Did you specify the amount of the 
contributions? 

Mr. Revyuk. I said between $200 and $300. 

Mr. Matthews. What ? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is correct. 

Mr. Yoorhis. But as I understand, that is money that is sent in to 
his organization, that was solicited by the Odwu and not money that 
he was contributing; that is sent from his organization. 

The Chairman. That is correct. 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

The Chairman. In other words, through your established organ- 
ization, you were enabled to transmit the money to the Ukrainians. 



5286 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes. 

The Chx\irman. They had confidence that the money would be 
properly distributed. 

Mr. Revtuk. That is right. 

The Chairman. And this money was money raised by Ukrainian 
Nationalists for this purpose? 

Mr. Revtuk. For this purpose. 

Mr. Voorhis. Money collected for the organization to maintain the 
press service, as I understand it. 

Mr. Matthews. That is right. 

Mr. Revtuk. At the recommendation of Odwu in this country we 
give a monthly check to Mr. Skotzko in charge of the bureau. 

Mr. Matthews. You simply transmitted what funds were col- 
lected. 

Mr. Revtuk. We were given a recommendation to do that. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, do you know anything else about the sup- 
port of the press service bureau other than your own funds which 
you transmitted and the statement that support has been coming 
from Provid, in Germany ; do you know whether they have any other 
funds contributed ? 

Mr. Revtuk. I cannot very well recall what their recommendation 
was but I just heard 

The Chairman. You do not know about it? 

Mr. Revtuk. No. 

Mr. Matthews. You have had experience in matters of publica- 
tion. "Would it be your expert judgment that these press bureaus 
operate on the funds which you transmitted to them ? 

Mr. Revtuk. As a matter of fact, there was a discussion of the 
United Ukraine Organization some time ago, a year or two ago, dis- 
cussing the operation and expense of publishing information, and at 
that time we came to the conclusion that — Dr. Myshuha stated, re- 
ported that the operation of the bureau would cost vearlv between 
$20,000 and $30,000. 

Mr. Matthews. That is your understanding? 

Mr. Revtuk. That was what I understood. 

Mr. Matthews. Would be the cost of the press bureau? And. 
you have no other first-hand knowledge about the financing of the 
bureau than that you transmitted $200 or $300 monthly ? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes. 

The Chairman. And you do not know that money comes from any 
foreign country or foreign agent? 

Mr. Revtuk. No. 

Mr. Matthews. I believe he was told outside the meeting in New 
York that financial support did come. 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. From the Provid in Germany? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes : in Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. But did not mention the size of the sums that 
were alleged to have come from Germany. 

Mr. Revtuk. No. 

The Chairman. Now I want to ask you a question while Mr. Mat- 
thews is looking up some other matters. Does this Nationalists organ- 
ization reach out pretty much among the Ukrainians throughout this 
country ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5287 

Mr. Revyuk. Not much. 
The Chairman. Not much? 

Mr. Revyuk. Not much. It is covered by about some 50 organiza- 
tions. 

The Chairman. About 50 organizations. 
Mr. Revyuk. Fifty organizations. 

The Chairman. You mean, in other words, that at the Congress 
they had delegates from that many? 
Mr. Revyuk. From that many. 

The Chairman. At the Odwu? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

The Chairman. Local branches. 

Mr. Revyuk. Local branches. 

The Chairman. And would those 50 be located in the larger cities? 

Mr. Revyuk. In the larger cities. 

The Chairman. Where Ukrainians are? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

The Chairman. And they would be pretty well scattered through 
the Ukrainian population? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes: scattered over the territory between Boston, Chi- 
cago, and Washington ; in that triangle. 

The Chairman. In other words, they have local branches of the 
organizations? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; they have local branch groups which pay dues to 
that central organization. 

The Chairman. The central organization in New York? 

Mr. Revyuk. In New York. They can give you a statement. I think, 
about the number of members. 

The Chairman. Do they keep the figures of the membership secret ; 
is it a secret organization? 

Mr. Revyuk. Not about the membership; I don't think so. 

The Chairman. Insofar as the membership is concerned ? 

Mr. Revyuk. No. 

The Chairman. Do they cooperate with White Russians? 

Mr. Revyuk. No. 

The Chairman. They are separate. 

Mr. Revyuk. They are very opposed to each other. 

The Chairman. You do not know about what troubles they have 
had with the bund, or whether they cooperate with it? 

Mr. Revyuk. No: that I do not. 

The Chairman. You do not? 

Mi. Revyuk. No. 

The Chairman. Do you know of any other organizations they co- 
operate with, have joint meetings with? 

Mr. Revyuk. No: I do not. 

The Chairman. What about the mobilizers; do they join in 
meetings? 

Mr. Revyuk. No ; I do not think so. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, as you recall, there is testimony in 
the record of last year on that. 

The Chairman. I recall last year, but I am trying to get what this 
man knows about it. Now, is the literature of this organization very 
much distributed out among the Ukrainian population? 

94931 39 vol.0 3 



5288 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes ; they distribute the literature, but I do not think 
they have more than 2,000 subscribers of the paper. 

The Chairman. Of the paper? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

The Chairman. I mean, do they distribute free literature to the 
Ukrainian population ? 

Mr. Revyuk. They distribute the literature as far as possible. 

The Chairman. As far as possible to the Ukrainian population ? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether or not they maintain con- 
tacts with the Provid organization. 

Mr. Revyuk. No. 

The Chairman. From your own information? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk, how long was Dr. Myshuha in Europe 
the last visit to that continent? 

Mr. Revyuk. It was over 3 months. 

Mr. Matthews. In what countries did he travel, according to your 
own personal knowledge? 

Mr. Revyuk. He was in France and Germany; in Czechoslavakia 
and Italy and England. 

Mr. Matthews. Holland? 

Mr. Revyuk. And in Holland. 

Mr. Matthews. When was that visit? 

Mr. Revyuk. It was in the summer of 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. A little over a year ago? 

Mr. Revyuk. A year ago. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you receive communications from him? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes ; when he was in Europe. 

Mr. Matthews. When he was in Europe. 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes ; I did receive communications. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who financed Dr. Myshuha's trip? 

Mr. Revyuk. The Ukrainian Press Bureau gave him money for 
the trip. 

Mr. Matthews. This was the insurance group? 

Mr. Revyuk. No; this was the publishing company. 

Mr. Matthews. The publishing company which was owned by 
the insurance group, financed the trip. 

In other words, if there were any financial liabilities involved in 
Dr. Myshuha's trip to Europe, the liability would rest on the mem- 
bers of the insurance group, would it not? 

Mr. Revyuk. It might. 

Mr. Matthews. That is your understanding of the operations. I 
show you a cablegram, Mr. Revyuk, and ask you if you received that 
cablegram from Dr. Myshuha? [Handing paper to witness.] 

Mr. Revyuk. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you receive it? 

Mr. Revyuk. I received a cablegram, but this is not from Dr. My- 
shuha. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please read the cablegram ? 

Mr. Revyuk. The cablegram reads: 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5289 

Paris, October 7, 1938. 

Emil Revytjk, 

88 Grand Street, Jersey City, N. J.: 

Ad res Myszuhy Hotel Palais Orsay Paris. 

That is signed "Bokiw." 

The Chairman. What is the significance of that telegram? 

Mr. Matthews. What does the telegram tell you? 

Mr. Revytjk. It tells me the address of Dr. Myshuha. We wanted 
to get Dr. Myshuha's address when he was in Europe, and we sent 
requests to several addresses in Europe where we supposed that he 
might be, and this gives the address of Dr. Myshuha; this is one of 
the replies we received. 

The Chairman. I still do not see the significance of it. 

Mr. Matthews. They were trying to get in touch with Dr. My- 
shuha; you did not have his address; is that right? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And you finally received this notice from Bokiw? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Informing you the address- of Dr. Myshuha? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. There are other communications, Mr. Chairman, 
which will bring out the importance of this. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a letter, Mr. Revyuk, and I want to 
read it : I want you to identify that letter, if you can. 

Mr. Revyuk. This was sent to the Ukraine organization. 

Mr. Matthews. You are the president of that organization? 

Mr. Revytjk. I am president of that organization. 

Mr. Matthews. And what is the substance of that letter? 

Mr. Revyuk. The letter is written by the Committee for the De- 
fense of Carpathian Ukraine, in the United States and Canada. 

Mr. Matthews What is the date of that letter ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Dated October 14, 1938. 

The Chairman. Mr. Matthews, suppose you read the letter; let 
him identify it. 

Mr. Matthews. I do not have the complete translation of it. 

Mr. Revyuk. On behalf of the organization, of the Committee for 
the Defense of Carpathian Ukraine, they were going to send two 
delegates, one of which delegates was George Goboda, of which 
Goboda has already left at the beginning of this week. And, the 
second delegate. Rev. Vladimer Kapishinsky is leaving one of these 
days; to be exact, on Wednesday, October 19, in the morning. 

Both these delegates are American citizens of Carpathian Ukraine origin, 
and both of them are Ukraine patriots, for the purpose that they may properly 
defend the rights of Ukraine Carpathia, sub-Carpathia. 

Ir is necessary that we should have as many credentials from all liberty 
Ukraine organizations as possible. Many Ukraine organizations have already 
given such credentials to these delegates of ours. Therefore we appeal to you, 
to the united Ukraine organizations of America that they should give such 
credentials to these delegates, and such credentials to each of them separately, 
and credentials should state in the English language, in the name — 

and here is a place mentioned for the name. 

We enclose a copy of such credentials so that you may have a pattern. But you 
should take care not to give credentials so completely alike. 



5290 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. In other words you want to change an "A r to "V" 
to make them look different? 

Mr. Matthews. That is the substance of the letter. 

The Chairman. Who were these two delegates? 

Mr. Matthews. They were going to attend a meeting of defense of 
sub-Carpathia Ukraine. 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

The Chairman. Both were American citizens and going over to 
defend Carpathia Ukraine. 

Mr. Matthews. Where was Carpathia at that time? In what coun- 
try was Carpathia situated? 

Mr. Revyuk. Carpathia Ukraine, in October, was yet in Czecho- 
slovakia. 

Mr. Matthews. In the eastern end. 

Mr. Revyuk (translating) : 

la view of the fact the second delegate is leaving this day to Europe we would 
ask you to see to it that you should send such credentials as soon as possible to 
the office of the Odwu. 

We are expecting your kind reply to this letter by, at the latest, by Tuesday, 
October 18. 

Mr. Matthews. By whom was the letter signed ? 

Mr. Revyuk. The letter is signed by Andrew Kist, He states the 
purpose of the letter is to get credentials. 

Mr. Matthews. That is on behalf of the Committee for the Defense 
of Carpathian Ukraine. 

Mr. Revyuk. In the United States and Canada. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you issue these credentials? 

Mr. Revyuk. We did not. 

Mr. Matthews. Why did you not issue the credentials? 

Mr. Revyuk. We could not very well give credentials to people 
whom we did not know and for use when we did not know what atti- 
tude they were going to take in Europe, and we could not give cre- 
dentials. 

Mr. Matthews. You were sure their activities were political ? 

Mr. Revyuk. We were sure they would be of a political character, 
but we did not give people credentials we did not know. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the political status of Carpathia Ukraine 
at that time ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Carpathia Ukraine at that time was something like 
semi-independent, a state loosely united of the Czechoslovaks in Car- 
pathia Ukraine. 

The Chairman. All together? 

Mr. Revyuk. All together as a loosely united group. 

The Chairman. But none of them getting along very well together? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; don't get along very well. 

The Chairman. Either there or here. 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. And they were sending delegates to the Car- 
pathia Ukraine. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a cablegram and ask you if it was sent 
to you? 

Mr. Revyuk. It was sent to me from Vienna. 

Mr. Matthews. And what is the date of it ? 

Mr. Revyuk. November 2, 1938. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5291 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please read that cablegram, Mr. Revyuk? 
.Mr. Revyuk (reading) : 

Raised protest againsl decision as unjust from Ethnographical Princip our 

representatives didn'1 recognize annexation of Uzhorod and Munkacz decision— 

The Chairman. Do you have a copy of that. Mi-. Matthews? 
Mr. Matthews. Yes; I will read it [reading] : 

Raised protest — 

The Chairman. What is the first word? 

Mr. Matthews. Raised. 

The Chairman. Raised protest against decision? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. LOoiitiiiniiig-.] 

Raised protest against decision as unjust from ethnographical princip. Our 
representatives didn't recognize annexation of Uzhorod and Munkacz decision. 

Uzhorod and Munkacz are the principal cities? 
Mr. Revyuk. In the Carpathian Ukraine. 
Mr. Matthews (continuing) : 

Uzhorod and Munkacz decision past under terrible pressure of our enemies. 
Immediately help Karpukraine materially. 

Is that what it is? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is what is states. 

Mr. Matthews. In the cablegram? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

The Chairman. What is the effect of it ; tell us what is the sig- 
nificance of it? 

Mr. Matthews. What did you do on receipt of that cablegram? 

Mr. Revyuk. We, even before receiving this cablegram, we raised 
protest in this country against the decision of the Vienna meeting of 
representatives of Italy and Germany allotting Uzhorod and Mun- 
kacz, the two principal cities of the Carpathian Ukraine to Hungary, 
even before this cablegram. 

The Chairman. Giving those two cities to Hungary ? 

Mr. Revyuk. To Hungary; the citizens were Ukrainian citizens. 

The Chairman. Where did you want them to go ? 

Mi-. Revyuk. We wanted them to go to Carpathia Ukraine. 

The Chairman. Into Carpathia Ukraine? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

The Chairman. To be with what country? 

Mr. Revyuk. Carpathia Ukraine. 

The Chairman. As a separate country? 

Mr. Revyuk. At that date because we'agreed to the settlement that 
it should be free, three groups, the Slovaks, the Czechs, and the 
Ukrainians. 

The Chairman. What year was this agreement? 

Mr. Revyuk. This was' in November 1938. 

The Chairman. And you made a protest? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; we made a protest. 

The Chairman. To the whole Ukraine population generally in this 
country; they were very much opposed to it? 

Mr. Revyuk. Very much. 

Mr. Matthews. What did you do on the receipt of that cablegram! 

Mr. Revyuk. We continued to work, to protest against it and to 
help that country. 



5292 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever learn from whom that cablegram 
came, subsequently ? 

Mr. Revyuk. No; I did not know from whom that came; it was 
either from Dr. Myshuha or a cablegram from representatives of the 
Carpathia Ukraine, and when the decision was made they no doubt 
withheld their names in order not to involve the sender with the 
German Government. 

Mr. Matthews. Was Dr. Myshuha in Vienna at this time, to your 
knowledge? 

Mr. Revyuk. I think he was. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a cablegram and ask you if you re- 
ceived this cablegram addressed to you? [Handing document to 
witness.] 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that from Dr. Myshuha? 

Mr. Revyuk. From Dr. Myshuha, from London. 

Mr. Matthews. Via London? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. It may be from London. 

Mr. Revyuk. It may be from London. 

Mr. Matthews (reading). 

Had conferences with foreign editors Times Guardian Telegraph about condi- 
tions in sub-Carpathia. Protested annexation aspirations of Hungary and Po- 
land. Everywhere understanding for self-determination. Guardian already re- 
ported our interview. Hungary uses telegram from American Carpathians for 
propaganda. Collosal enthusiasm among Ukrainian villagers under Poland 
because of our government. Predominant majority will boycott Polish elections 
especially women. 

Myshuha. 

Will you give some further brief explanation on that? 

Mr. Revyuk. Well, the conference that he refers to was evidently 
with the foreign editors of English newspapers. "Times" must be 
London Times; "Guardian" is Manchester Guardian; "Telegraph" is 
a London newspaper. Well, it is clear what he spoke about. These 
interviews protested annexation by Hungary and Poland of the Car- 
pathian Ukraine. He says that these newspapers understand the 
principle of self-determination, and the Manchester Guardian has 
already reported interview. 

Mr. Matthews. What does he mean by "our government ;" do you 
know? 

Mr. Revyuk. By "our government" he means the government of 
the Carpathian Ukraine. I don't see that. 

Mr. Matthews. That is on the second page 

Colossal enthusiasm among Ukraine villagers under Poland because of our 
government. 

Mr. Revyuk. He means that in the Ukrainian villages under Poland 
there is enthusiasm that in Carpathian Ukraine was organized 
Ukrainian Government. 

Mr. Matthews When he says "our government"- 

Mr. Revyuk. He refers to the Carpathian Ukrainian Government. 

Mr. Matthews. But Dr. Myshuha is an America citizen, is he not ? 

Mr. Revyuk. He is. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk, did you receive this cablegram from 
Dr. Myshuha [handing to witness] ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5293 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. I read this cablegram: 

Made Friday by radio in Vienna address about decision of American 
Ukrainians to support by any means sub-Carpathian Ukrainians in their en- 
deavors to build their own government. Now going by air to London. 

This cablegram is dated "Vienna"; is that correct? 

Mr. Revtuk. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. And when Dr. Myshuha spoke over the radio in 
Vienna on the decision concerning the disposition of sub-Carpathian 
Ukrainians, he Mas speaking on a radio under the control of the 
Nazi Government ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Revtuk. There is no other' radio in Germany but controlled 
by the government. 

Mr. Matthews. So that he must have been speaking with the ap- 
proval of the Nazi Government when he made that address in 
Vienna ; is that your conclusion ? 

Mr. Revtuk. Unless he spoke — unless he got to speak otherwise. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, the cablegram speaks for itself. 
If you speak on the Germany radio, you must say what the German 
Government approves, and especially a political talk which concerns 
the disposition of territory. That would be the only way in which 
he could possibly speak on the German radio. 

(The telegram above referred to was marked "Revyuk No. Exhibit, 
September 28, 1929.") 

Mr. Matthews (continuing). Now we have here, Mr. Revyuk, a 
cablegram addressed to you from Dr. Myshuha, also from Vienna, 
under date of September 22, 1938, which reads as follows: 

Proclaim immediately collection to help trans-Carpathian Ukrainians in their 
fight for their rights. Do not send money to England. Visum refused. 

Do you recall receiving that cablegram ? 

Mr. Revtuk (after examining). Yes; I did receive this cable- 
gram. 

Mr. Matthews. And, in that cablegram, Dr. Myshuha requests you 
to start raising a collection in this country? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. A collection for the support of the 

Mr. Revtuk. Carpathian Ukrainians. 

Mr. Matthews. Of the Carpathian Ukrainians? 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What does he mean by saying that you should 
not send the money to England, because visum has been refused? 

Mr. Revtuk. Prior to this he requested some money to be sent to 
him — additional money to be sent to him in Europe — and he gave his 
address in London — the address, as far as I remember, of the Ukrain- 
ian Bureau in London — and this telegram states that we should not 
send money to the address in London, because he was refused visa to 
go to England. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know why Dr. Mvshuha was refused visa 
to enter England? 

Mr. Revtuk. As I understand from letter, I think, and from con- 
versation with Dr. Myshuha after his arrival in this countrv, when he 
applied for a visa to England, he was questioned for a long time 
about his political activity in Europe— I think in Paris. 



5294 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. He wrote you a letter about that ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; he wrote me a letter and later he spoke about 
it when he arrived. 

Mr. Matthews. And it was his opinion, as he indicated it to you, 
that it was on account of political questions ? 

Mr. Revyttk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. That the British Government refused him the 
right to enter the country ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes ; that is why, I understood. 

Mr. Matthews. He was a political agitator in the mind of the 
British Government? 

Mr. Revyuk. Well, I don't know that, 

Mr. Matthews. Now, as a result of your receiving this cable, did 
the organization set about to raise funds for the purpose requested 
in the cable? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; we did. 

Mr. Matthews. Approximately how much money did you raise? 

Mr. Revyuk. We raised, altogether, for sub-Carpathian Ukraine, 
within the last year, between twenty and twenty-five thousand 
dollars. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, that is the same fund you re- 
ferred to earlier, when you mentioned about the political funds 
which were transmitted through your organization ? Earlier in your 
testimony today, you mentioned this matter? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; I think I did mention that. 

(The cablegram above referred to was marked "Revyuk No. 
Exhibit, September 28, 1939.") 

Mr. Matthews. Now, we have another cablegram addressed to 
you from Dr. Myshuha, dated September 23, 1938, also from Vienna, 
which reads: 

Give every support in the press and mass meetings the first Ukrainian Na- 
tional Counsel in Uzhorod as the only representative of sub-Carpathian 
Ukrainians and demand the right of the Ukrainian people to decide the fate 
of this part of Ukraine. 

Do you recall receiving that cablegram, Mr. Revyuk? 

Mr. Revyuk (after examination). Yes; I received this cablegram; 
I remember that. The Ukrainians in the United States and the 
United Ukrainian organization also took that stand already long 
ago, that the Ukrainian national organization in Uzhorod is the real 
expression of the will of the people to rule themselves. That was 
our stand already taken. 

Mr. Matthews. Having received that cablegram, did this national 
organization of Ukrainians in the United States actually hold mass 
meetings? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And begin agitation for the support of the mat- 
ter stated in the cable? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; they did. 

(The cablegram above referred to was marked "Revyuk No. 
Exhibit, September 28, 1939.") 

Mr. Matthews. I have another cablegram addressed to you from 
Dr. Myshuha, dated Paris. October 8, 1938, which reads: 

Send credentials and money in actual currency American Express Paris. 



IX-AMKUH AX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5295 

Do you recall having received that cablegram? 

Mr. Revyuk (after examining). Yes; I received this cablegram, too. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you cable the funds requested to Dr. Myshuha? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; we cabled some five or six hundred dollars; some- 
thing between 

Mi. Matthews. Did you send the credentials which he requested? 

Mr. Revyuk. We did. 

(The cablegram above referred to was marked "Revyuk No. 
Exhibit, September 28, 1939.") 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a copy of what appears to be credentials 
in both Ukrainian and English [handing to witness |. Were these the 
credentials which you sent to Dr. Myshuha? 

Mr. Kevyik (after examining). Yes; this is the copy of the creden- 
tials that we sent to Dr. Myshuha. There is the Ukrainian text to it 
and the English. 

Mr. Matthews. And the English text reads as follows: 

To Whomever It May Concern: 

This is to certify that Dr. Luke Myshuha. the editor in chief of the Svoboda, 
the Ukrainian daily, published in Jersey City, N. J., and the supreme recording 
secretary of the United Ukrainian Organizations of the United States, known 
as Ohyednanye. is hereby authorized to represent all the Americans of Ukrainian 
descent and all the Ukrainian organizations affiliated with the said Ohyednanye 
in all negotiations regarding Subcarpathian Ukraine, and by his personal par- 
ticipation to support the attitude of the Ohyednanye, which had already filed with 
the world powers a most vigorous protest against the claims of Hungary and 
Poland to Subcarpathian Ukraine, and at the same time demanded for the 
Subcarpathian Ukrainians the full right of self-determination and the right to 
decide freely about their national allocation, directly or indirectly, through their 
lawful representatives organized into the First Ukrainian Central Council of 
Uzhorod. 

On behalf of the United Ukrainian Organization of the United States. 

It is signed by the president and secretary. That is a copy of the 
credentials which you sent him? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is a copy; yes. 

(The paper above referred to was marked "Revyuk No. 
Exhibit, September 28, 1939.") 

Mr. Matthews. Xow. I want to ask you, Mr. Revyuk, if Dr. Myshuha 
was authorized by these credentials to represent all Americans of 
Ukrainian descent and all Ukrainian organizations affiliated with your 
organization? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes ; he was. 

The Chairman. In other words, he was speaking for 800,000 Ukrai- 
nians in the United States? 

Mr. Revyuk. No. 

Mr. Matthews. At least he bore credentials which set forth that 
statement? 

Mr. Revyuk. No. We meant to say that he has the right to repre- 
sent Americans of Ukrainian descent and Ukrainians in America who 
are affiliated with United Ukrainians of America. That is what we 
wanted to state in these credentials. 

The Chairman. I see. 

Mr. Matthews. But did he have an actual right to speak for seven 
or eight hundred thousand Americans of Ukrainian descent? 

Mr. KivviK. Not according to these credentials. 



5296 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Well, according to the credentials, he did. I will 
ask you if he actually had that right? 

The Chairman. The credentials state he was to speak for the 
people of Ukrainian descent. That was a mistake, was it not ? 

Mr. Revyuk. It was. Well, we meant really to connect those affil- 
iated with the Obyednannia; also all the Americans of Ukrainian 
descent. We perhaps did not state clearly. 

The Chairman. What you meant was this: He was authorized to 
speak for all Ukrainians who were affiliated with your organization? 

Mr. Revyuk. With our organization. 

The Chairman. How many would that be, about? 

Mr. Revyuk. Oh, about three or four thousand. 

The Chairman. Why did they put in the credentials he was to 
speak for all the Ukrainians? To make it look bigger? 

Mr. Revyuk. No; that is what we really meant to say, that all 
Ukrainians, Americans of Ukrainian descent, and all organizations 
affiliated. We meant really to do it, but we did it in just a poor 
style, perhaps. 

Mr. Matthews. It says two different things; it says to represent 
all Americans of Ukrainian descent and all Ukrainian organizations 
affiliated. 

Mr. Revyuk. Well, it depends on how you read it. 

Mr. Matthews. I can only read it one way myself. Perhaps you 
can read it two ways. 

The Chairman. How do you read it? 

Mr. Revyuk. I read it "is hereby authorized to represent all Amer- 
icans of Ukrainian descent and all Ukrainian organizations affiliated 
with the Obyednannia" so as to make it that both of them referred to 
those connected with that Obyedanye. 

Mr. Matthews. I see. 

Mr. Revyuk. Suppose A and B affiliate with C 

Mr. Voorhis. Let me see if I can interpret it correctly : All Amer- 
icans of Ukrainian descent who are affiliated with the organiza- 
tion 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. And all organizations affiliated with that organi- 
zation ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. That is what I mean. And instead of saying 
this twice we said it once. 

Mr. Voorhis. Is that what you meant? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is what we had in mind. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether Dr. Myshuha did purport 
to speak for all of the Americans of Ukrainian descent at this gath- 
ering in Europe? 

Mr. Revyuk. I don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. You don't know? 

Mr. Revyuk. No. 

(The committee thereupon took a recess until 1: 15 p. m.) 

after recess 

The committee reconvened pursuant to the taking of the recess, Hon. 
Martin Dies (chairman) presiding. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order, please. All right, 
Mr. Matthews, let us continue with the witness. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5297 

TESTIMONY OF EMIL REVYUK— Resumed 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk, I read you a cablegram addressed to 
you by Dr. Myshuha, dated Rome, the 1st of October 1938: 

Now only confederation of three independent states of Czechs, Slovaks, Ukrai- 
nians possible practical solution. Defend right of Ukrainian Council in Uzhorod 
to represent and decide. 

That is signed "Myshuha." Will you identify that cablegram as 
having been received by you? 

Mr. Revyuk (after examining). Yes; I received this cablegram 
from Rome. I received it here, as the stamp shows, October 1, 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. And did that cablegram represent to you that Dr. 
Myshuha was engaged in political activity in Europe? 

Mr. Revyuk. Very evident ; that is evident. 

(The cablegram above referred to was marked "Revyuk No. Ex- 
hibit. September 28, 1939.") 

Mr. Matthews. I read you another cablegram which is addressed 
to your organization, "Obyednannia," dated Geneva, the 30th of Octo- 
ber 1938. If you will follow the Ukrainian, I will read the translation 
and ask you if this is a correct translation : 

In accordance with the will of the late Fuehrer, the inner Provid of the Ukrai- 
nian Nationalists proclaim that the chief of Provid and the Fuehrer of Nationalist 
movement is Colonel Andrew Melnyk. 

Is that a correct translation of the cablegram ? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is correct with the correction as I stated before 
that before the name of Colonel Melnyk, the late fuehrer is given 
"the glorious memory." 

Mr. Matthews. Instead of "late," it should read "of glorious 
memory" ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Of glorious memory. 

Mr. Matthews. And is that cablegram signed by anyone? 

Mr. Revyuk. It is signed by the secretary of the Provid, Jaroslaw 
Baranowsky for the press. And that means that we should publicize 
that — publish in the paper. 

Mr. Matthews. And this cablegram is almost in identical language 
with the communications which you received by mail bearing on the 
same subject? 

Mr. Revyuk. Similar — very similar. 

(The cablegram above referred to was marked "Revyuk No. Ex- 
hibit, September 28, 1939.") 

Mr. Matthew t s. I read you another cablegram addressed to you and 
signed by Dr. Myshuha, dated Vienna, November 3, 1938 : 

Premier Woloshyn and government appeal to our people in America for help 
and assistance in reconstructing Karpatukraine just proclaimed capital starting 
with building of railroads, roads, schools. 

"Will you identify that cablegram as having been received by you? 

Mr. Revyuk (after examining). Yes; this telegram was received 
by me. 

Mr. Matthews. And signed by Dr. Myshuha ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Signed by Dr. Myshuha. 

(The cablegram above referred to was marked "Revyuk, No. Ex- 
hibit, September 28, 1939.") 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk, I show you some envelopes. Will you 
identify those envelopes as having been received by you? 



5298 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revyuk (after examining). Yes; these envelopes have been 
received by me. 

Mr. Matthews. Where are they post dated ? 

Mr. Revyuk. They were sent from Berlin : three of them were sent 
from Berlin and one from Vienna, Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. What did they contain when yon received them ? 

Mr. Revyuk. The three first ones contained some propaganda and 
some releases — propaganda releases — for the press, and the third one 
was a letter from our correspondent of the Svoboda in Vienna by the 
name of Hryzaj. 

Mr. Matthews. Were those the press releases which we have already 
introduced in evidence this morning? 

Mr. Revyuk. I don't know that. 

Mr. Matthews. But they were similar to the press releases which 
we have introduced? 

Mr. Revyuk. Similar. 

Mr. Matthews. If not the same ones? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

(The envelopes above referred to were marked "Revyuk No. Ex- 
hibit, September 28, 1939.") 

Mr. Matthews. I show you two cablegrams, Mr. Revyuk, both of 
them in Ukrainian, and I believe thev are dated Vienna, are they 
not? 

Mr. Revyuk (after examining). Yes; both of them are dated 
Vienna. 

Mr. Matthews. And what are the dates on those cables? 

Mr. Revyuk. It is October 9, 1938, on the one and November 4, 
1938, on the second. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, was the first of those cables signed by 
Chymenecj ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What is the purport of the telegram as signed by 
Chymenecj ? Is it a request for financial assistance from the United 
Ukrainian Organizations of the United States to help 

Mr. Revyuk. No; it say that — 

The declaration of England that their revision of the frontiers of Czecho- 
slovakia is admissible only on tlie principle of ethnography, does not remove 
the danger of Hungarian occupation. Chymenecj, . head of the delegation 
of the Karpatukraine appeals to you to appeal to England, France, Germany, 
Italy, to support the efforts of Karpatukraine for self-determination. Protest 
vigorously against the Polish and Hungarian plans of common frontier at the 
expense of Karpatukraine and their occupancy. 

Mr. Matthews. To whom are these cablegrams addressed? 
Mr. Revyuk. That was addressed to the Obyednannia. 
Mr. Matthews. That is your organization ? 
Mr. Revyuk. Our organization. 

Mr. Matthews. And the second one is addressed to whom? 
Mr. Revyuk. The second one is addressed to Svoboda. 
Mr. Matthews. And by whom is the second one signed? 
Mr. Revyuk. The second one is signed by Woloshyn, Premier 
Minister of the Karpatukraine — 

We, the Government of the Karpatukraine, appeal to you, our brethren across 
the ocean, to manifest your solidarity with us in the present decisive moment. 
The loss of Ushoroda and Mukatchewa, which is a wounding of live body of 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5299 

our native country, will not shake our resolute decision to carry out the great 
historic task. Real support of the Government of Karpatukraine on your part, 
on the side of our brethren across the ocean — 

There is something thai is garbled that I cannot really make out. 

(The telegrams above referred to were marked ""Revyuk No. Ex- 
hibit, September 28, 1939.") 

The Chairman. In other words, these are telegrams from Carpa- 
thian officials who were wiring here to tliis organization or organiza- 
tions, asking the organizations to use their influence to protest against 
the separation of those cities. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Showing the exact condition that existed as be- 
tween the Carpathian Government and these respective organizations 
in America. In other words, the government officials were wiring 
directly to Ukrainian officials in the United States? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir. It was composed of American citizens. - 
Are not most of the members of the organization American citizens? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes, sir; that is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you not know that? 

Mr. Revytjk. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a cablegram in Ukrainian from Rome, 
dated October 1, 1938, addressed to Svoboda. Will you translate that ? 

Mr. Revytjk. It reads "Myshuha will stay until the third of this 
month with me." 

Mr. Matthews. Who is it signed by? 

Mr. Revyuk. Bv Onatsky, Paris. 

The Chairman/ Who is he? 

Mr. Revyuk. He is editor of a Ukrainian newspaper in Paris, the 
Ukraine Teskflovo. The telegram is signed "Onatsky." 

Mr. Matthews. Will you identify Onatsky? 

Mr. Revyuk. Mr. Onatsky is the Rome correspondent of the 
Svoboda. 

Mr. Matthews. He is also the agent of the Provid in Rome ? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes, sir ; the Provid. 

Mr. Matthews. The Provid is in Germany, and he is the agent in 
Rome? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you an exhibit w 7 hich consists of a letter from 
the Ukraine Bureau, Southern Building, Washington, which was sent 
to you under date of May 18, 1939. It contains four sheets. There 
are two letters signed by Skotzko. 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you state whether you received this material, 
and what was the general nature of it? 

Mr. Revyuk. I received this letter. They did not come in this 
envelope. The first letter was in this envelope, and the other two sheets 
were separate. The letter addressed to me by Mr. Skotzko says: 

It would he very Interesting to have from you a practical exhaustive opinion in 
reply to the following question: Why should the United States consider it in 
their own interest to be interested in and support the Ukrainian question? 

The Chairman. What is that question ? 
Mr. Matthews. The problem. 
Mr. Revyuk. He meant the problem. I suppose. 

The Chairman. The interest of the United States in the problem 
of the Ukraine \ 



5300 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. Then it says : 

I asked the same question of other gentlemen, since I would like to have a 
clear opinion about this among ourselves. I thank you and remain, etc. 

Mr. Matthews. I will ask you if three of these letters did not refer 
to efforts of the Odwu to arrange for a demonstration to be held in 
the Hippodrome Hall, in New York, in July 1937? Did the three 
letters refer to that subject? 

Mr. Revyuk. I find difficulty in exactly identifying it. They speak 
about a common national manifestation, which probably was a mani- 
festation, or, rather, a mass meeting to be held in the Hippodrome. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know of any other demonstration or mani- 
festation other than the one held in the Hippodrome, in New York? 

Mr. Revyttk. I do not think so. I think that must be the one. 

The Chairman. They were arranging from abroad for a demon- 
stration held here in the United States; is that correct? They were 
arranging for a demonstration to be held in the United States in 
behalf of Ukrainian independence? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. It may also be noted that these letters are signed 
by Mr. Sckorsky. The first letter is signed by Eugene Skotzko. 

Mr. Revyuk. The second letter is from the central executive com- 
mittee of the Odwu. This is also signed by Skotzko, the record- 
ing secretary, and Mr. Cherwolnik. Mr. Sckorsky is the president of 
the National Press Service. 

Mr. Matthews. I have a letter in Ukrainian from Danzig, dated 
August 9, 1938, signed by Dr. Myshuha. Will you identify that letter 
as having been received by you ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir; that letter was received by me from Dr. 
Myshuha. 

Mr. Matthews. I will ask you whether in this letter, among other 
things, Dr. Myshuha said this to you : 

In Berlin I have not as yet seen the chief, but I will try to see him later. 

Will you state to the committee whether that statement appears 
there? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir; it does. 

Mr. Matthews. That was mailed to you from Danzig? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir ; it came from Zoppot, which is in the Free 
City of Danzig. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you testify to that letter as being in Dr. 
Myshuha's own handwriting? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You are familiar with his handwriting? 

Mr. Revyuk. I am; yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. I will show you another communication. This 
appears to be a communication addressed to your organization. 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. In care of Dr. Myshuha. 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it signed by Mr. Skotzko? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir; the recording secretary, and Mr. Czerava- 
tiuk. 

Mr. Matthews. This is in Ukrainian, and I would like to give you 
a translation of a portion of the letter and see if you will identify it : 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5301 

In regard to your opinion about tf.ie purposes of this mass meeting and espe- 
cially as to the attitude of the old country to any suck mass meeting, we do not 
know whom you have in mind when you speak of the "old country." If you 
had in mind the Ukrainian Nationalist movement and is Provid which you as 
well as we have always recognized as the carrier of the movement for the 
liberation of the Ukrainian people and whom you, as well as we, have always 
given support, then we give you our declaration that it is exactly the wish of 
the Provid and the Nationalists that such mass meeting should be held in New 
York. 

An order of the Provid and the Ukrainian Nationalists in regard to such mass 
meeting has already been received by us as the official representative of that 
Provid in America, and it was our duty to gain cooperation for this purpose of 
all the Ukrainian factors in this country, including you. 

As to the policies of the organization of the Ukrainian nationalists, it seems 
to us that it is now and it is not different from what it used to be for years 
in the past, and there is no basis to suppose that such a change of attitude is 
intended, and as to the price in it we have not made anything on the rumors 
which have always been circulated. 

We also read the last editorials of Svoboda and other articles in it, the 
contents of which in our opinion coincide with the attitude of the United 
Ukrainian organization in that matter. We think that the definition of the 
need of such mass meeting as given by the Svoboda does not run counter to 
the proper attitude, but in our opinion at the present moment when the inimical 
propaganda falsely distorts the Ukrainian cause and tries to annul our work 
abroad, and when we could expect every moment the outbreak of war and 
various factors, the world would like to have the Ukrainian attitude clarified 
by the Ukrainians themselves when foreign nations watch unusually carefully 
the Ukrainian cause, and, as you can say from your own experience, very care- 
fully watched, and ask or inquire how the Ukrainian immigrants proceed and 
organize themselves, since they consider that Ukrainian immigrations are per- 
haps the only factor of giving consideration to the Ukrainian national cpiestion 
and manifesting the true feelings and desires of the Ukrainian people today, and 
at such a moment conditions more than command that such a powerful and 
all-embracing mass meeting should be held. 

Is that an approximately correct translation? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir; except near the end. In the last clause of 
that sentence you have just finished reading, "since they consider that 
Ukrainians are perhaps the only factor of giving consideration to 
the Ukrainian national question," and so forth. That should be 
"the only fully free factor." 

Mr. Matthews. Where is the letter from ? 

Mr. Revyuk. That letter was sent from the central executive com- 
mittee of the Odwu. 

Mr. Matthews. To your organization? 

Mr. Revyuk. To the United Ukrainian Organizations, in care of 
Dr. Myshuha. 

Mr. Matthews. Does that letter make it perfectly clear that the 
Provid in Germany desired that a mass meeting be held on behalf 
of the Ukrainian cause ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And that letter makes it clear that they have 
received express instructions from the Provid to that end? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. What is the proper attitude there? What do they 
mean when they say "the proper attitude"? 

The Chairman. It is the attitude of the Provid. Whatever is the 
.attitude of the Provid would be the proper attitude, would it not? 
Is not that what they mean? 



5302 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. It reads : 

We think that the definition of the need of such mass meeting as given by the 
Svoboda does not run counter to the proper attitude. 

Mr. Voorhis. What does that mean ? 

Mr. Matthews. What is it that they were talking about in connec- 
tion with the proper attitude? 

Mr. Revytjk. I cannot be exact about it, but what they meant prob- 
ably was that Svoboda itself was in favor of such a mass demonstra- 
tion all over the country in favor of Ukraine independence. This is 
the general attitude. Now, O'dwu arranged for a manifestation, and 
they would like to have the United Ukrainian Organizations to come 
forward and cooperate in this particular meeting in New York City; 
but, as these other letters show, we have not fully cooperated with 
them. We have stood officially aloof from them. We would not 
cooperate with them officially. 

Mr. Voorhis. Then a proper attitude, in that connection, meant an 
attitude favorable to Ukraine independence? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. Am I correct in assuming that the Svoboda newpaper 
is one that you are connected with ? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a letter signed by Mr. Skotzko and Mr. 
Czeravatiuk, under date of June 3, 1938. 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you identify that letter ? 

Mr. *Revytjk. Yes, sir; that was received by the United Ukrainian 
Organizations. 

Mr. Matthews. Without translating the letter, which is lengthy,, 
can you give us the gist of it ? 

Mr. Revytjk. I will have to read it. The writers say that we should 
cooperate with them in proclaiming a public mourning for the death 
of the leader or fuehrer of the Ukrainian Nationalist Movement, the 
late Colonel Konovaletz. 

Mr. Matthews. Do they specify 14 days of mourning? 

Mr. Revytjk. Naturally they want to see if they cannot give it wider 
publication. They specify methods of glorifying the leader. 

Mr. Matthews. This is the man who was assassinated at Rotter- 
dam ? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. He was the head of the Provid ? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And was succeeded by Colonel Melnyk? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it ever determined who assassinated Colonel 
Konovaletz ? 

Mr. Revytjk. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. There were many charges and counter charges? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes, sir; they had several factors mentioned as a 
reason for his death, but there was no proof. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a letter sent to Svoboda from Berlin, 
which contains propaganda and press material from Germany. Is 
that letter from Berlin? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes. sir. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5303 

Mr. Matthews. Does it contain propaganda and press material 
from Germany? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes, sir; it contains press releases. 

Mr. Matthews. Does it state that Professor Granowsky, the presi- 
dent of the Odwu in the United States, and Kossar, the leader of 
the Canadian Nationalists, are in Europe? 

Mr. Rkvyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Professor Granowsky is the president of the Odwu 
in the United States and Kossar is the leader of the Canadian Na- 
tionalists? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. They were in Europe? 

Mr. Reyyuk. In Slovakia. 

Mr. Matthews. Is this the Professor Granowsky who stated to 
the State Department that he had no connection with a foreign 
principal? Is that correct? 

Mr. Revytjk. I do not know whether he stated that. 

The Chairman. What is the significance of that? 

Mr. Matthews. This man named Kossar is the leader of the 
Ukrainian Nationalists in Canada, and they were traveling together 
in Europe. They were at Bratislava, according to the press re- 
leases from Berlin. 

I will show you a letter signed bv Dr. Myshuha, sent from Ger- 
many, dated September 22, 1938. Is that correct? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. To whom is the letter addressed? 

Mr. Revytjk. It is addressed to me. 

Mr. Matthews. I will read a part of the letter, as follows : 

The official Voelkiseher Beobachter (Hitler's own publication) publishes an 
article about the demand of Carpatho-TJkraine to become independent. This 
emanates from the Ukrainian Nationalist circles and was published after I told 
them about the consultations with the First Ukrainian National Council in 
Uzhorod. In America we must conduct a campaign in the name of Obyeduanya 
in the defense of the Carpatho-TJkraine as a part of the whole Ukrainian scheme. 
We must immediately (and the word "immediately" is underscored) give finan- 
cial aid to the First Ukrainian Council for all kinds of schemes which demand 
action there and abroad, because they must send emissaries from there. Local 
sources will raise some funds, but we must aid with some ten thousand dollars. 

Is that a correct translation of that part of the letter? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything about the official organ 
mentioned there, the Voelkiseher Beobachter newspaper? 

Mr. Reyyuk. Yes, sir: it is the official organ of the National Social- 
ist Party. 

The Chairman. What is the significance of that? Is he quoting 
an article which appears in Hitlers personal newspaper? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir. Not only that, but he gave information 
to the official Voelkiseher Beobachter, according to this letter. Ac- 
cording to this letter, the Voelkiseher Beobachter is supporting 
Ukrainian independence. There is a general tie-up there with what 
the letter seems to indicate. 

Mr. Vookhis. Dr. Myshuha wrote a letter, as I understand it. ({not- 
ing an article from the Voelkiseher Beobachter, telling about what 
was happening in connection with the movement for Ukrainian inde- 
pendence ? 

94931— 39— vol. 9—4 



5304 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. And he goes on in his letter to say that they should 
raise $10,000 in the United States? 

Mr. Matthews. There is no quotation from that. 

Mr. Voorhis. Is that in the article? 

Mr. Matthews. No, sir; that is in the letter. There is no quota- 
tion. 

The Chairman. He simply says that he gave the paper certain 
information. 

Mr. Voorhis. Did he develop this business about raising the 
$10,000? Did he say that, too? 

Mr. Matthews. He says that in the letter. 

Here is an exhibit consisting of two envelopes, containing press 
releases from Bratislava. Are these press releases of a Nationalist 
propaganda character? Can you tell that from a glance? 

Mr. Revyuk. One of them notifies us of the organization of the 
Ukrainian press bureau in Bratislava. And another one gives ex- 
cerpts from the Communist press directed against the Soviet. 

Mr. Matthews. Were these communications received by the Svo- 
boda newspaper? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Dated July 1939? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. Did you say that these press releases were from the 
Communist press, and directed against the Soviet Union? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir; quoted from various Russian newspapers. 
No, sir ; that is a mistake ; that is not a Communist paper. Yes, sir ; 
it is quoted from Communist papers. They quote news dispatches 
that show that something is wrong with the Soviet. 

Mr. Voorhis. That something is wrong with the Soviet Union? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. They get news dispatches on which to base their 
arguments ? 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a letter from Dr. Myshuha, from Paris, 
dated October 8, 1938, addressed to you. Is that letter in Dr. 
Myshuha's handwriting? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. I will read a translation of the letter, in part, as 
follows : 

Prague, Vienna, Rome, and now Paris is the fourth spot under which I was 
compelled to wait for a day, sometimes as many as 5 hours a day, to come 
for my turn in the matter of visa to England. Since the time that they 
hegan the evacuation of London they fear air raids of German airplanes (some- 
thing that can happen in Paris, too). English bureaucrats became insane. In 
my visa matters there occur still other complications as I see that wherever 
such a small person as myself applies for a visa they are interested in finding 
out who I am and whom I represent. 

Mr. Makohin, who bought a "palace" in Alassio on the Italian Rivera, states 
that there were circulated about me silly rumors that I am a candidate to be 
the successor to Konovaletz, and this complicates matters. In any case, he 
showed me a letter from Davies, a member of the British Parliament, to the 
effect that he had intervened in my favor, but here are passing 10 days and I 
have no answer to my 3 telegrams. 

Yesterday I had in the English consulate an hour's conference, with a lady 
official who appeared to be very intelligent and unusually well oriented in the 
matter of sub-Carpatho. It went so far that I told her the full truth what I 
went to London for. That I was already in Uzhorod and that I represent 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5305 

the opinion of the Ukrainian National Council in Uzhorod and at the same 
time the American opinion. She asked me whether my activity does not go 
counter to the policies of the American Government. 

I replied that the U. S. A. ai - e for the self-determination of nationalities and 
justice, and they don't interfere with anybody's efforts in such directions, but 
•quite the contrary, they help. She asked how we intended to liberate Ukraine 
from under the Soviet. Why are we so much interested in sub-Carpathia? I 
gave a long reply in that direct inn. that the break-down of the Soviets is in- 
evitable, that we need sub-Carpathia in order to stop the Soviet advance into 
Europe (through Czechoslovakia) and that it is not to the interest of England 
that sub-Carpathia should become a springboard for the expansion to the east 
for * * * for somebody else except the Ukrainian people who are neighbors 
and who want the panoply of the Soviet power in the Ukraine. 

She asked also about the Magyrs and the Poles. She was "struck" when I 
told her that I will deposit at once $1,000 to the person who will prove to me 
that in Poland 7,000,000 Ukrainians can use in the school books and official rela- 
tions the name of Ukraine. She has written it down, all this, and sent it by 
special letter to the home office. 

In Rome the situation has changed somewhat. Onatsky was appointed ; at 
least he is of Polish origin. The printing of the Ukrainian-Italian dictionary 
was stopped at once, although the dictionary had already upward of 200 pages. 
Efforts are being made that this work should not be placed in peril. It is evi- 
dent that Italy supports Hungary and the annexation, of sub-Carpathia to 
Hungary. This is to be an obstacle against expansion of Germany of which 
Italy begins to stand in great fear. We in Rome have discussed the matter 
with Dr. Enrico Ensabato. and I sent him at his explicit demand a special letter 
as one who has conferred with the Ukrainian National Council and as a repre- 
sentative of the opinion of the American Ukraine and in general of the Ukrainian 
National Association and Svoboda as the oldest organiztions, and in this letter 
I proposed to him a confederation of three independent nations, namely, Czechs, 
Slovaks, and Ukrainians, as the most sensible solution which will give the Ukrain- 
ian people in sub-Carpathia the possibility of stopping the advance of the Third 
International in Europe via Uzhorod, Prague. 

I came to an agreement with the Provid (Hrybievsky and Baranowsky) to 
the effect that Odwu would carry no special general action without an under- 
standing with the United Ukrainian organizations. All the orders for such activ- 
ities will be sent in the first place to the United Ukrainian organizations for 
examination, to see whether or not there are any obstacles to it, or opposition. 

The resolution about the independence passed at the congress of Odwu has not 
helped the matter. It was, at any rate, premature, and for this reason could 
even hurt the cause. That is the same opinion of Onatsky and those who are in 
Paris. I wrote to Hrybievsky a letter to give by telegram a command to Odwu 
to carry on no political activities without an understanding with the United 
Ukrainian organizations. Improper conduct of the matter is killing it, since it 
reveals us as having connections with the German intrigue. 

In the old country the pacification goes on or has been going on for more than 
a month. Now they conduct bargaining for candidates for seats in the Parlia- 
ment. Undo going to take part in the elections, other groups not. This at least 
is the news from Lemberg. The Union of the Ukraine Women perhaps is still 
alive since the Government wants piety to induce the Ukrainians to take a part 
in the balloting and elections. That increases the number of their candidates. 
From Budapest and Vienna go continuous appeals by radio in the matter of 
sub-Carpathia. The populace of sub-Carpathia are appealed to from Vienna to 
hold out because the entire Ukrainian race and America are for them. 

Is that a portion of the letter? 

Mr. Rev y uk. Almost the whole letter, but I think there are some 
mistakes here. 

Mr. Matthews. Will yon please note any significant errors, if they 
are more than merely verbal? 

Mr. Revyuk. That passage about Rome is completely garbled. In 
Rome the situation is somewhat changed. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you give the correct translation ? 

Mr. Rkvyuk. It says his chief was appointed in the institute, but 
they appointed an Italian who is of Polish origin. That is why they 
stopped the printing of the American-Polish dictionary. 



5306 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Voorhis. Who is that letter from? 

Mr. Revyuk. It is from Dr. Myshuha to me. 

Mr. Matthews. In Dr. Myshuha's handwriting. In this letter he- 
states, "I came to an agreement with Provid," and in parentheses two- 
men are named, right after Provid, one Hrybiersky and the other 
Baranowsky, both of whom have already been referred to. 

This agreement had to do with the activities of Odwu, the organ- 
ization in America which is a section of Provid. 

Mr. Voorhis. He says the Odwu must not do anything unless the 
United Ukrainian Organizations agree. Is that right ? 

Mr. Matthews. That is right. 

Mr. Voorhis. What is the point of that ? 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please clarify that, Mr. Revyuk? 

Mr. Revyuk. Evidently they refer to incidents in which the United 
Ukrainian Organizations refused to cooperate with the Odwu. 

Mr. Matthews. They were alienated by some tactics of Odwu? 

Mr. Revyuk. Odwu would come out and try to start something, a 
mass meeting, or something, and then they were asked to cooperate 
and they would refuse to cooperate, and they agreed, as the letter says, 
that before Odwu comes out with any kind of a scheme of some 
work they should always make an understanding with the United 
Ukrainians Organizations beforehand. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that in order to guarantee the success of the 
united front? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; something of that kind. 

Mr. Matthews. He calls attention to the fact that improper con- 
duct of the matter is killing it. 

The Chairman. In other words, here are some 50 branches of 
Odwu in the United States, and they are affiliated with an inter- 
national organization, and the head of it is the Provid at Berlin, 
and they are exchanging information between the groups at different 
times, reporting as to what is going on in other countries of the 
world, as well as leaders going from United States. All of this 
has its fountainhead in Berlin, in Germany, where the Provid head- 
quarters are, and, naturally, Germany would be getting any informa- 
tion that would come in through this source. 

The 50 branches are pretty well located, like the bund, and it would 
be a source of information for Germany. 

That would be a reasonable inference from the letters and corre- 
spondence and the connections. 

I do not mean necessarily that these people would be intentionally 
giving information to Germany, but the effect would be that these 
50 branches would be reporting to a central headquarters in Ger- 
many, and the close connection between Germany and this central 
agency is shown by the fact that the official newspaper of the Nazis 
prints articles for them and sends out news releases to the United 
States. 

Mr. Revyuk. In this letter he refers to a different matter. 

Mr. Matthews. Here is the point in this letter of greatest im- 
portance. Dr. Myshuba is saying that Odwu has pursued wrong 



!- 



tactics with the Ukrainian organization because Odwu has revealed 



.— 



connections with the German authorities. That is the improper 



tactic that he has suggested. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5307 

The Chairman. That is another way of saying that this whole 
thing is linked to Nazi Germany. The German Government would 
not tolerate the existence of this Ukrainian headquarters, wherever 
it is. unless the Nazi Government wanted to. In other words, they 
have complete control over the matter, so there is a link there — 
we do not know how strong — between the Nazi Government and 
this central organization. 

Of course, it may be that most of the members of this Nationalist 
group are innocent about this thing that has been going on. It 
may be that they are drawn into this thing, a great many of them 
working in different factories and industries ; most of them are 
industrial workers. 

Mr. Revyuk. In the United States. 

The Chairman. In the big cities of the country. Some of them 
are in airplane factories, in munitions plants, and so on. 

Mr. Revyuk. They might be. 

The Chairman. The thing I think we overlook is the clever scheme 
in having all these different, various organizations with branches, all 
alive because of some ideological dispute, when all of the information 
eventually finds its way into Germany through some route. It may 
be in one instance from the Communist Party, or in another instance 
from the Bund, or from the Ukrainians, or some other movement. 
But eventually it all gets to Germany, and. of course, there can be 
used by Hitler for whatever purpose he sees fit. 

Mr. Matthews. I think there are 150 posts. 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know how many there are; I have no idea. 
I just know that at the last convention of the Odwu held this year 
there were delegates from. 58 lodges. 

The Chairman. The way Germany worked it was to express sym- 
pathy for the Ukrainian desire for independence. Germany fostered 
this thing and encouraged it, and Ukrainians generally were in 
sympathy with Germany for that reason, w T ere they not? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know how general that was. 

The Chairman. I mean until the recent pact between Stalin and 
Hitler. 

Mr. Revyuk. Not generally, no; just a small group, but they are 
rather active, more, perhaps, than the others. What he refers to 
here was that during the congress of Odwu, that a resolution was 
passed during the congress of Odwu in the matter of the Ukraine, 
which was not the right thing to do. in which somehow there was 
exposed the relationship between Germany and that movement for 
the Ukraine. 

Mr. Voorhis. Is not this an important feature of that letter also, 
that apparently Dr. Myshuha had spoken to the officials of the Provid 
and explained to them that the Odwu was a sort of militant organi- 
zation that was perhaps getting a little too far ahead of the parade 
and becoming too obvious in its method, and that the other organiza- 
tions, on the other hand, were much more solid, with more member- 
ship, and that if any tactics were used, or any activities approved by 
them that would be less likely to be of a harmful nature than they 
would be if Odwu did what they wanted to: is that right? 

Mr. Revyuk. He probably meant the character of such activities. 
He probably meant if Odwu proceeded to do something in favor of 



5308 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

the Ukraine and followed it in such a way that it might show they 
are connected with Germany. 

Mr. Voorhis. He did not want that to be shown. 

Mr. Revyuk. He did not want that to be shown. He knows that if 
the united Ukraine organization do something, activities of that kind 
will be simply shown because the united Ukrainian organizations will 
not allow such things to happen, because we are not connected in any 
way with them. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk, there is a Mr. Makohin referred to in 
this letter of Dr. Myshuba. Could you briefly identify Mr. Makohin? 
Do you know him personally ? 

Mr. Revyuk. I met him several times, both in this country and once 
in Paris, in 1929, 1 think. He is rather a man of mystery. What he is 
nobody really knows. There were probably questions made in various 
Ukrainian papers asking, Who is this man ? He supports the Bureau 
of Information in London, the Ukraine bureau in London, and still 
people do not know what connection he has,*with what government, 
and so on. 

He does not represent anybody in this country but himself, but 
he has plenty of money to do such widely scattered activities, and 
therefore the people asked, who is that man? 

Mr. Voorhis. He has been asked by whom to do these things? 

Mr. Revyuk. By Ukrainian newspapers in this country. 

Mr. Matthews. They have been asking, Who is this man of 
mystery who seems to have ample funds to carry on all of this work, 
and set up a press service? 

Mr. Revyuk. A press service in London. 

Mr. Matthews. The Ukrainians have not so far had an answer 
to that question ? 

Mr. Revyun. Not yet. 

Mr. Voorhis. Is he in the United States at present? 

Mr. Revyuk. I understand he is in the places mentioned in that 
letter. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything about charges alleged 
against Mr. Makohin by official bodies in the Government? 

Mr. Revyuk. I know some time ago, I think 2 years ago, there 
was a very wide investigation in this country of Mr. Makohin and 
about his activities, about the source of his finances, and so on, but 
what was the result of this inquiry 

Mr. Matthews. Who made that investigation ? 

Mr. Revyuk. I think it must have been the American Govern- 
ment. 

Mr. Matthews. The Federal Bureau of Investigation? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know, but the American Government was 
doing that. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything further about Mr. Mak- 
ohin, any other governmental investigation ? 

Mr. Revyuk. No. I understand there was an investigation carried 
on against him in Canada, and there were inquiries made in Paris,, 
too. 

Mr. Matthews. What is his first name, do you know ? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not remember his first name. 

Mr. Matthews. It is not stated in the letter ? 

Mr. Revyuk. No. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5309 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk, I show you :i letter in Ukrainian, 
which appears to be from Odwu; is that correct [handing letter to. 
witness] \ 

Mr. Revyuk. It is. 

Mr. Matthews. Addressed to your organization i 

Mr. Revyuk. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews, ruder date of October 5, 1938. 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it correct that this letter asks your organization 
to furnish credentials for two delegates who are being sent to Europe 
for the purpose of influencing the situation in sub-Carpathia? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And the names of these delegates are Nicholas 
Benyo, of St. Claire. Pa., and George Gaboda, of New York City. 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it correct that the letter is signed by V. Czera- 
vatiuk as vice president? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And V. Riznak as secretary? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it also correct that these two agents returned to 
New York City on September 14, 1939, on the Statenclam? 

Mr. Revyuk. That I do not know. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk, do you know of any other name 
under which Onatsky goes? 

Mr. Revyuk. I think his real name is Seryk. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know of any other alias used by any of 
these men? 

Mr. Revyuk. My impression is, I am not sure of it, but my im- 
pression is that Schresku is also not his real name. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk, we have here a letter sent to Svoboda 
from Rome, dated September 25, 1938 [handing letter to witness]. 
Is that letter signed by Onatski? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; it is. 

Mr. Matthews. And Onatski has been identified as an agent ol 
the Provid in Rome? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And a correspondent of your newspaper, Svoboda ? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In part of this letter it is stated : 

With regard to Carpatho-Ukraine, I submitted two letters, one to II Duce and 
another one with a copy of the first to Ciano. I am expecting Mr. Myshuha 
this week and will acquaint him with the text of my letters which I don't feel 
like forwarding. 

Is that correct? 

Mr. Revyuk. Correct. 

The Chairman. In other words, the letter says that Mr. Onatsky 
has had a conference with II Duce ? 

Mr. Matthews. He presented two letters, one to II Duce and a copy 
of the first to Ciano. 

The Chairman. In reference to what matter? 

Mr. Matthews. With reference to the Carpatho-Ukraine. 

Mr. Revyuk, I show you a letter from Dr. Myshuha, addressed to 
you [showing letter to witness]. Is that correct? 



5310 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revyuk. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. From Carlsbad, Germany. 

Mr. Revyuk. Correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Dated September 9, 1938. 

Mr. Revyuk. September 9. 1938. That was not Germany then, I 
think, was it? 

Mr. Matthews. No; that was Czechoslovakia. 

Mr. Revyuk. That was before September 25-26. 

Mr. Matthews. I will read a translation of a part of the letter and 
ask you to follow it, beginning with the words "I learned that," and 
leading as follows : 

I learned that General Kurmanovich went to America. I wasn't informed about 
it beforehand, but I was only asked as to who would be the right person to send 
to America. They asked me about it in Berlin at the time when the general was 
already on his way, but I guessed and have even written I forgot to whom that 
the general will surely come to America. Now I am going to Prague to deliver 
a lecture and there I have also many requests especially with regard to the 
Pan-Ukrainian Congress and the Provid. 

Is that a correct translation of the portion which I read? 

Mr. Revyuk. Correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Revyuk, as you recall, these last three 
communications which we have just gone over, when you received these 
communications from Dr. Myshuha, and written not so far apart, did 
they convey to you the understanding, or very clear impression, that 
Dr. Myshuha was acting as some sort of a liaison agent between the 
Nationalist movement here in the United States and the Provid in 
Germany? What conclusions did you draw from these communica- 
tions? 

Mr. Revyuk. As to this question of being a liaison, it seem'ed that 
he is a kind of liaison; he goes between Provid and some other 
organizations. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you another letter [handing letter to wit- 
ness]. Is this letter from the organization of the Ukraine National- 
ists' liaison department? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it addressed to your organization? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. By whom was it signed? 

Mr. Revyuk. It is signed by Pryhoda, as the reporter of liaison. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that a fictitious name, or is that a correct 
name ? 

Mr. Revyuk. There is not a first name given, so it looks as if it were 
fictitious, or a pseudonym. 

Mr. Matthews. Does the name Pryhoda have any meaning in 
Ukrainian ? 

Mr. Revyuk. It has some meaning of an adventurer, or something. 

Mr. Matthews. So, on the face of it, it would appear that it is a 
pseudonym ? 

Mr. Revyuk. It looks like it, 

Mr. Matthews. I read you from this letter dated October 18, 1938, 
as follows: 

By our letter of October 17, 193S, we brought to your notice a communique of 
the Provid of OUN, and the elevation of Mr. Andrew Melnyk to the position of 
chief of the Provid and the fuehrer of the Nationalist movement, and we advised 
you to pass on that communique to the press, but for certain political and tech- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5311 

nical reasons and namely on account of certain complications which might arise 
thnmgh a premature republication of this communique, we request you to regard 
tins communique as confidential and not to publish it before you get word 
from us. 

Is that a correct translation of the letter you hold in your hand? 

Mr. Revyuk. You said what happened to Andrew Melnyk? 

Mr. Matthews. Elevated. 

Mr. Revyuk. He was proclaimed. 

Mr. Matthews. Otherwise, the translation is correct? 

Mr. Revtuk. Otherwise the translation is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, you were asked not to make 
known this fact, by Pryhoda, because it might have a reaction that 
might be harmful to the interests of Provid in Germany. 

Mr. Revyuk. It seems about that way. I received the first com- 
munique from Provid. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that introduced this morning, and was it 
identified? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; ami then 2 or 3 days later they asked me not 
to publish it, and then this was a request to publish it. 

Mr. Voorhis. Where did this letter come from? 

Mr. Revyuk. It came from Vienna. 

Mr. Voorhis. Did the other one also come from Vienna? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes ; that was also from Vienna. 

Mr. Voorhis. Who is that letter signed by? Who signed that, 
what name was it? 

Mr. Revyuk. Pryhoda. 

Mr. Voorhis. I thought there was something after that. 

Mr. Matthews. This was a letter from the liaison department of 
the headquarters of the Nationalists. 

I show you a letter from Dr. Myshuha [handing letter to wit- 
ness]. To whom is that letter addressed? 

Mr. Revyuk. It must have been addressed to me. 

Mr. Matthews. It is dated October 17, 1938. 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. From Rotterdam, Holland. 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. I read you the translation of a part of the letter : 

I am transmitting to you a declaration which I made in Vienna over the 
radio [which is the Nazi-controlled station], and which was heard all over 
Europe. This station is especially being listened to in the Carpatho-Ukraine 
and by our people under Poland, and I am a witness to the fact that some 
300 people have been listening to it in Chalet, France, where I have given a 
lecture about our Ukrainian life in America. * * * Now. since the frontiers 
are closed 

Mr. Revyuk. Just a moment. 

Mr. Matthews. "Since the frontiers are closed ?" 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews (continuing): 

Now. since the frontiers are closed, it is impossible to get to Prague or 
Uzhorod by rail 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews (continuing) : 

so I will again be obliged to fly by airplane. 

That is a correct translation, is it? 



5312 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revyuk. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. And this, again, establishes the fact that Dr. 
Myshuha did give his speech over the Nazi-controlled radio station in 
Vienna ; that is correct ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. This time the communication is in his own hand- 
writing? 

Mr. Revyuk. It is. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it published in Svoboda — the speech? 

Mr. Revyuk. The speech was ; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. The speech that he gave over the radio station was 
published in Svoboda? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk, I hand you another letter [handing 
a paper to the witness]. To whom is this letter addressed? 

Mr. Revyuk. To me. 

Mr. Matthews. From Dr. Myshuha ? 

Mr. Revyuk. From Dr. Myshuha. 

Mr. Matthews. From London. 

Mr. Revyuk. From London. 

Mr. Matthews. Dated October 25, 1938? 

Mr. Revyuk. The envelope is addressed to me. The letter is ad- 
dressed to the Ukrainian National Association and to the United 
Ukrainian Organizations of the United States. 

Mr. Matthews. Which is your own organization ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Which is my own organization. 

Mr. Matthews. In this letter does Dr. Myshuha state that he called 
at the Foreign Office of the British Government and left there a 
memorandum ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And that in the course of his conversation at the 
British Foreign Office he gathered that the British are helpless? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. "That is to say, if Hungary or Poland occupy the 
Carpatho-Ukraine. the British will not fight"? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is what it means — could not fight. 

Mr. Matthews. Could not fight? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. "It follows that they are leaving it up to Hitler 
alone to handle the affairs in eastern Europe"? 

Is that the burden of it ? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is the burden of it ; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Another letter, if you please, Mr. Revyuk [handing 
a paper to the witness] . To whom is this letter addressed ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Also to me. 

Mr. Matthews. From Dr. Myshuha ? 

Mr. Revyuk. From Dr. Myshuha. 

Mr. Matthews. From Carlsbad ? 

Mr. Revyuk. From Carlsbad. 

Mr. Matthews. And the date is August 26, 1938 ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Right. 

Mr. Matthews. That was when Dr. Myshuha was still in Czecho- 
slovakia. I read the translation : 

I am enclosing here two articles of Yasinczuk, which were sent here to me 
from Jersey City. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5313 

That is Y-a-s-i-n-c-z-u-k? 
Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 
Mr. Matthews (continuing) : 

I am unclosing also the envelope so that you may know Mr. Yasinczuk's hand- 
writing, especially Miss Badnar's, who recognizes it, and should not send them 
lack to inc. Finally, I remark that all my letters could be opened since I have 
no secrets in them. 

I received today for the first time in Europe "Svoboda," and I am reading it 
with great interest as we have never seen it before. I am reading in it about the 
firm of Avramenko. Is Mr. Skebar the author of these articles? They seem to 
be his style. At least, it seems so to me. I was here already in the place 5 days 
and it is very cold and it is raining, which means what is happening most to me. 
The prices are very high everywhere, especially Germany, and they take the skin 
of you who happens to come here. The number of people is very small, a few 
Jews and Poles. Of the Ukrainians there came from Canada Doroshenko 

Mr. Revyuk. That is D-o-r-os-h-e-n-k-o. 

Mr. Matthews. Doroshenko and Lotosky — L-o-t-o-s-k-y? 

Mr. Revyuk. Right. 

Mr. Matthews (continuing) : 

from Warsaw. There is also a plenipotentiary of Mr. Makahon. It means a 
varied company. There is also a director of the land bank, and from him I re- 
ceived some good information. Everybody here is ''convinced" that I travel 
through Europe to prepare myself to be the head of the Provid of the Oun ! Some 
state that I have been already "appointed," but of the real members of the Provid 
I know little, since it is not even certain who belongs to it. 

I saw in Berlin Yary, but he could not tell me if anybody and who will go 
to America. It appears, however, that they will try to send there General 
Kurmanovich. 

For general information I may state only this: That no matter with whom I 
talk here, everybody here all in unison and state that the only creative element 
in the old country is the nationalist element. It is this element that carries on 
all the work in the villages. Formerly it used to be different. It was absent 
from all kinds of workers, and nowadays just, the opposite. The radical party 
has become ridiculous. Stachiv is left. Hromadsky Holos should not irritate 
the Government with something. They have gathered some property and they 
shiver over it. I was told about it by people from their own party. 

As to the assassination of Colonel Konovaletz there are various surmises, but 
the mourning in the old country was pan-national all over the villages and 
cities. Everywhere the people carried mourning bands although they were 
punished for it severely. 

Is that a correct translation of that letter, Mr. Revyuk? 

Mr. Revyuk. What was said about the radical party? 

Mr. Matthews. "The radical party has become ridiculous." 

Mr. Revyuk. It says here: "Has become opportunistic." It is 
ridiculous to state it has become opportunistic. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that the only correction you have to make in 
the letter? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is the only one. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk, can you identify Mr. Piznak? 

Mr. Revyuk. He is an attorney from New York — in New York. 
He is also a member of the United Ukrainian Organizations, and an 
officer of it. 

Mr. Matthews. And is this the Mr. Piznak who is a friend of 
Mr. Ivan Baran? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you identify Mr. Baran? 

Mr. Revyuk. I have known him for some years. He was first a 
preacher; then he became a real-estate operator — a realtor. I met 
him in Chicago. Later he came to New York City. I met him in 
New York Citv. 



5314 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Are Piznak and Baran closely associated with Dr. 
Myslmha, according to your knowledge ? 

Mr. Revyuk. They are associated. I don't know how close they 
are. 

Mr. Matthews. Is this the same Mr. Baran who testified for the 
Nazi Government in connection with the settlement of claims center- 
ing around the Black Tom explosions? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is Mr. Vosniak ? 

Mr. Revyuk. I remember reading about the trial in the matter of 
the Black Tom Island explosion, and remember Vosniak's name was 
mentioned in the report. It is a Slovak name; it may be Ukrainian, 
it may be Polish. 

Mr. Matthews. You do not know him personally? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do not know him personally. I do not know who 
he is. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Mr. Gregory Herman? 

Mr. Revyuk. I do. 

Mr. Matthews. What are his organization connections in the 
Ukrainian movement ? 

Mr. Revyuk. He was until 1938 the president of the Odwu until 
last year, until the election of Granowsky to that office. 

Mr. Matthews. Is Gregory Herman an officer in the Reserves of 
the United States Army? 

Mr. Revyuk. I think he is; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know where Mr. Herman resides? 

Mr. Revyuk. He resides at Wilkes-Barre, Pa. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know a Mr. Smuk ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Roman Smuk? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Is he connected with the Odwu? 

Mr. Revyuk. Well, as far as I hear. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you see him in the nationalist movement? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is how I — from hearsay. I have no personal 
knowledge. 

The Chairman. That last statement may be stricken, where he 
says it is just from hearsay. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; and also the question may be stricken. 

The Chairman. Yes; the question too. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk, do you know anything about the 
airplanes which are advertised in the publications of the Odwu 
and on the calendar which is put out by the organization? 

Mr. Revyuk. I have read many reports about it in the press for 
some years — for some 4 years — about such things being in existence- 
Mr. Matthews. This [handing a paper to the witness] is a copy 
of the Nationalist dated — <— 

Mr. Revyuk. Dated September 20, 1935. 

Mr. Matthews. With three photographs of an airplane on which 
the word "Nationalist" appears to be painted. 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir; and the Ukrainian coat of arms, and it 
says: "Photographs from the aeronautical festival at Cleveland. 
Members of the organization of Odwu, Branch No. 8, and airplane 
Nationalist," 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5315 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Revyuk, I show you another copy of the Na- 
tionalist [handing a paper to the witness], dated 

Mr. Revyuk. February 1, 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. February 1. L938, which has a photograph. Is 
that photograph of members of the Odwu '. 

Mr. Revyuk. Well, this is — the caption reads: 

From the Nationalist Day in New England: Peabody, Massachusetts, June 

28, 1037. 

Mr. Matthews. Is there anything here that identifies the group in 
the picture as members of the Odwu \ 

Mr. Revyuk. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recognize the uniforms? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir ; the uniforms. 

Mr. Matthews. What uniforms are they? Do you know them 
by sight? 

Mr. Revyuk. They probably are of the Nationalist group. 

The Chairman. Thev have a distinctive uniform in that organiza- 
tion? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir; a distinctive uniform as indicated by the 
photographs. There are several photographs here. 

The Chairman. I wonder if thev have a strong-arm detachment. 
Does he know T anything about that? 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything about the strong-arm 
detachment? 

Mr. Revyuk. No ; I do not. 

Mr. Matthews. Of what is this a photograph? [Indicating.] 

Mr. Revyuk. This is an airplane school of the Odwu. That is The 
Nationalist published still in Philadelphia, July 5, 1935. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who the head of the Hetman organi- 
zation is, Mr. Revyuk ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; Dr. Siemens, of Chicago. 

Mr. Matthews. S-i-e-m-e-n-s? 

Mr. Revyuk. S-i-e-m-e-n-s. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not he has any position in 
the United States Army? 

Mr. Revyuk. I think he is an officer in the Reserves. 

Mr. Matthews. A Reserve officer in the United States Army? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Now. Mr. Revyuk, I want to show you several 
copies of the publications of Odwu and ask you to identify certain 
translated portions of these publications. What is the name of this 
publication ( [Handing a paper to the witness.] 

Mr. Revyuk. The name of this publication is " Vistnyk of Odwu," 
which means "the messenger of Odwu." 

Mr. Matthews. And what is the date of that issue? 

Mr. Revyuk. The date is April-May 1934. 

Mr. Matthews. And on page — what is this page ( [Indicating.] 

Mi. Revyuk. Page 13. 

Mr. Matthews. Page 13 — will you please translate the underlined 
portion ? 

Mr. Revyuk : 

It came also beyond — across the sea to America, and it was grafted here by 
the very same soldiers who in the time of the Ukrainian uprising stood in the 
most dangerous posts at the front. 



5316 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Is that statement made on the authority of Stefan 
Kuropas? 

Mr. Revytjk. That is right. He writes that article. 

Mr. Matthews. And he states that the Ukrainian Nationalist move- 
ment in America w as imported from Europe ? 

Mr. Revytjk. Yes. 

The Chairman. What is that ? 

Mr. Matthews. Was imported from Europe, and was not born here. 
Now, on page 16 of the same issue, Mr. Revyuk, I will read this. It 
is in English. 

A hearty welcome goes to Mr. Omelan Hrybiwskyj (alias Grybivsky) who ar- 
rived on our shores last month. We trust the members of the Y. U. N. (Young 
Ukrainian Nationalists) will grasp the opportunity of making personal acquain- 
tance with the man who laid the foundations for Odwu 3 years ago. He comes 
to us from the organization of Ukrainian Nationalists to give a first-hand ac- 
count of the situation in Ukraine and the work performed there by Ukrainian 
Nationalists. Mr. Hrybiwskyj will give a series of lectures where branches of 
Odwu exist. Now is the time to make preparations for his visit to your branch, 
mobilize your membership, and present a good showing. Where a branch of 
Y. U. N. has not yet been formed, take the necessary steps for organizing one. 
The executive committee will give the necessary assistance, but it is up to 
Ukrainian youth to profit from the inspiration which Mr. Hrybiwsky brings 
with him. 

Now will you please state once more where Mr. Hrybiwsky is from ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Mr. Hrybiwsky is from Europe. 

Mr. Matthews. And he is a representative of the Provid ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Of the Provid. 

Mr. Matthews. As has been brought out in previous statements? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please identify that magazine? [Hand- 
ing a magazine to the witness.] 

Mr. Revyuk. This "Vistnyk of the Odwu," "Messenger of the 
Odwu." 

Mr. Matthews. Dated what? 

Mr. Revyuk. Dated January 1934, No. 16. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you follow the translation of that marked por- 
tion on page 1 ? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews (reading) : 

The Ukrainian Nationalists have inoculated the Ukrainians in America with 
the Ukrainian Nationalist idea, in order to make them accomplish a part of the 
task in the rebuilding of the Ukrainian State. 

Is that a correct translation? 

Mr. Revyuk. It is rather free. 

Mr. Matthews. Does it depart in sense from the original ? 

Mr. Revyuk. 

The Ukrainian Nationalists have grafted, or inoculated, the idea of the 
Ukrainian Nationalists in America for the purpose that this, our numerous immi- 
gration should be revived by this new, live movement, and force it — in order to 
force it to carry on the part of work in the great revolutionary process of recon- 
struction of the Ukrainian people and the reconstruction of the Ukrainian Nation. 

Mr. Matthews. And that is signed by the central committee of the 
Odwu ? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is signed by the central committee of the Odwu. 

Mr. Matthews. Would you please identify this publication? 
[Handing a paper to the witness.] 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5317 

Mr. Revyuk. This is the Nationalist, the official organ of the Odwu. 
dated Philadelphia. September 20, 1935. 

Mr. Matthews. On page 2, please note a marked portion : 

Resolutions adopted by the First Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists in 
America : 

"1. The congress expresses a holiest that the organizational hond of the Na- 
tionalist organizations on the American continent with the Provid of the O. U. N. 

be intensified, and that this hond be effected through the governing bodies of the 
corresponding nationalist organizations." 

Is that a correct translation? 
Mr. Revyuk. That is correct. 
Mr. Matthews. 

"3. The congress takes note of the steps taken by the central committees of 
Odwu and of the C. H. S."— 

Mr, Revyuk. The Red Cross. 

Mr. Matthews. The Red Cross 

toward the consolidation of their organizations on the territory of the United 
States of America, steps which have been announced as — 

The Chairman (interposing). Do thev use the word "territory"? 
Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir; "the territory of the United States of 
America."' 

Steps which have been announced as useful by the communique of the dele- 
gate of the Provid of the O. U. N., Mr. Omelian Hrybiwsky, April 25> 1935. 

Is that a correct translation? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is a correct translation. He uses "terrain" here 
instead of "territory." 

Mr. Matthews. "Terrain" instead of "territory" ? 

Mr. Revyuk. It is more military. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, that reference to the Red Cross 
here is not to the American Red Cross, but to a branch of the Odwu. 
the name of which has now been changed to Gold Cross. Is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you please identify this publication? 
[Handing a paper to the witness.] 

Mr. Revyuk. This is Vistnyk of Odwu, dated September 1933. 
This is the article entitled "Nationalists and Individualism," by E. 
Onatsky. 

Mr. Matthews. E. Onatsky is the Provid representative in Rome, 
and a few passages from this article give some idea of the ideology 
of the Odwu movement as set forth by Onatsky. [Reading:] 

On the other hand we have an atomistic 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews (continuing) : 

an atomistic theory of society of the democratic doctrine, with its ideals of 
general equality, which leads to leveling of human values, and expresses itself 
by dreadful demagogues of bolshevism and communism. 

Mr. Revyuk. Demagogy. 
Mr. Matthews (continuing) : 

demagogy of bolshevism and communism. For democratic individualism the 
human society is purely a mechanical or atomistic aggregate; every separate 
individual is an atom equal to every other individual, which weighs on the 
scales of life and power exactly as much as any other. And that is why in 



5318 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

every democratic-liberal regime they evaluate not the quality of this or other 
person, not the value of his psychic traits, which ought to be universally culti- 
vated and developed (just remind yourself of Christ's parable about the buried 
talents), but only the quantity of such persons. 

The country of the most merciless individualism (that is of both of liberalism 
and of the so-called democracy) have of late decades become the United States 
of America, where the dominant slogan has become the vulgar slogan : "Mind 
your own business." t • 

The Chairman. That is from the official publication of this 
organization ? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

The Chairman. Published here in the United States? 

Mr. Matthews. That is correct ; published in the United States. 

Mr. Revtuk. Yes, sir; from Europe, but published in New York 
City. 

Mr. Matthews. One more quotation from the same article: 

Nationalism, which places at the foundation of its activities the welfare of the 
entire race, remembers that the condition of the whole depends upon the con- 
dition of the individuals. And that is why they must cultivate as strongly as 
possible the development of the individualistic traits and of separate individuals 
and of separate individualistic groups. And that is why, for instance in Italy, 
with the obtaining of the control of power by the Italian nationalists (known 
under the name of Fascism), the Italian nation assumed the name of ethical 
state, that is, of a nation which is indifferent to the life of the nation and of 
the individuals composing it, but has toward them its ethical duties, takes care 
of their education (not only of their enlightenment), of the many-sided de- 
velopment of all their individualistic values. 

Is that a correct translation ? 

Mr. Revtuk. That is right. 

The Chairman. That is nothing in the world but the Nazi ideology- 
It is just an expression of the same thing. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please identify this publication ? [Hand- 
ing a paper to the witness.] 

Mr. Revtuk. This is The Nationalist, New York City, Wednesday, 
September 14, 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. Does this headline read : ""Resolutions of the Second 
Congress of the Ukrainian Nationalists of America"? 

Mr. Revtuk. Right. 

Mr. Matthews. Now will you please follow this translation of 
resolution No. 8 : 

The only proper method to construct the political system of the Ukrainian 
nation is upon the principles of authoritarianism and fuehrership. which rests 
upon the principle of creativeness, character, will, and responsibility of the 
individual. 

Is that a correct translation? 

Mr. Revtuk. That is a correct translation. 

The Chairman. Are a lot of these members of this organization 
aliens? What percent would you say are citizens? 

Mr. Revtuk. A great many are citizens. 

The Chairman. They belong to an organization that subscribes to 
these principles? 

Mr. Revtuk. They do. 

The Chairman. They ought to have their citizenship revoked, and 
they ought to be sent back to their own country, where they have 
that idea about democracy and about our country. That is not gen- 
erally the opinion of Ukrainians in this country, by any means? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5319 

Mr. Revtuk. Oh. no; and perhaps these members are not fully in- 
formed. I think the members of this Congress were not fully con- 
scious of what was meant. 

The Chairman. Bui they read these magazines, and the article 
that he wrote before that, in which they denounced American de- 
mocracy, and they certainly know what that means. 

Mr. Revtuk. It is probable that they know more about that than 
about that resolution. 

Mr. Matthews. And now will you please identify this publica- 
tion \ | Handing a paper to the witness.] 

Mr. Revyuk. That is The Nationalist, New York City, May 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. May 15, 1938? 

Mr. Revyuk. May 15, 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you turn to page 3? Is this article a 
full report of a public lecture by Prof. A. A. Granovsky, delivered in 
New York under the auspices of Odwu? 

Mr. Revyuk. A lecture by Professor Granovsky. 

The Chairman. What is he a professor of? 

Mr. Matthews. I do not know what his subject is. 

Mr. Revyuk. He is a professor of the science of bugs. 

Mr. Matthews. Entomology? 

Mr. Revyuk. Entomologw. 

The Chairman. Where? 

Mr. Matthews. At the University of Minnesota. 

Mr. Revyuk. The State University of Minnesota. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that lecture delivered under the auspices of 
Odwu I 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes, sir; it was delivered under the auspices of the 
central committee of Odwu, New York City : 

Professor of Minnesota University, Dr. Alexander Granovsky, the president of 
the Central Committee of Odwu, has given a pnblic lecture in the Ukrainian 
National Hall on the topic of "Ukraine on the Background of the Present 
Events.'' 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you turn to page 3 again? I read you 
a translation of a portion: 

We see with our own eyes how the spirit of the people conquered in Germany. 
The victors (Allies) artificially create new nations and artificially destroy the 
natural ones, but all the efforts of the enemies will fail. 

Over there (in Ukraine) the people are only waiting for "der Tag." 

Mr. Revyuk. The great day. 
Mr. Matthews. The day? 
Mi-. Revyuk. The great day. 
Mr. Matthews. And again : 

Force must be met by force. 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; here it is. 
Mr. Matthews (continuing) : 

Force must be met by force, and nothing will stop the march of the Na- 
tionalist movement. 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mi-. Matthews. Now, down here: 

We must at every step give aid and confidence to the Provid of Oun and to 
the Colonel Konovaletz. 

94931— 39— vol. 9 5 



5320 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Are these correct translations of the quoted por- 
tions of the speech of Professor Granovsky? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is the head of the Odwu in the United States 2 

Mr. Revyuk. Right. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please identify this, Mr. Revyuk? 

Mr. Revyuk. This is the Vistnyk, Odwu, the official publication of 
the Odwu, dated March 1934. 

Mr. Matthews. And what is the page to which I am directing your 
attention, page 14? 

Mr. Revyuk. Page 14. That is from the article What Ideas Serve 
Odwu. 

Mr. Matthews. Now I will read the translation of a portion of the 
article : 

Alas, now all Ukrainians take this attitude to the Ukrainian nationalism. A 
great part of it. and especially the old so-called leading stratum of our race, who 
like to bow before the enemies, to cringe and to plead for amnesty and autonomy 
and who in their serfdom are incapable of taking a courageous stand, nay even to 
demand openly what is justly ours — this section of our people considers national- 
ism to be a prank of anarchistic young generation and a most destructive and 
dangerous phenomenon for Ukrainians. To this opinion the said group adheres 
with the stubbornness of donkeys, even at the time when in other races the 
nationalism — as for instance fascism or hitlerism — are crowned with greatest 
successes. 

Is that a correct translation '. 

Mr. Revyuk. Correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please identify this publication [handing 
publication to witness] ? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is also the Vistnyk of Odwu, August 1933. 

Mr. Matthews. This is from page 12 

The Chairman. Before you translate that, do you see anywhere in 
these publications any quotations from William Dudley Pelley? 

Mr. Revyuk. No ; I do not see that. 

The Chairman. You have not seen them? 

Mr. Revyuk. No. 

The Chairman. Or Fritz Kuhn? 

Mr. Revyuk. No. 

The Chairman. Or George Deatherage, or any of this older bunch? 

Mr. Revyuk. No. 

The Chairman. They talk so much alike I thought perhaps they 
would be exchanging views. 

Mr. Matthews. This statement appears on page 12 : 

America was able to produce Lindbergh, Post. Emily Earhart. By id — but those 
were individuals. It is a great question whether she would ever be able to collect 
a hundred capable flyers to cross the Atlantic. 

Is that an article about Balbo's mass flight across the Atlantic some 
years ago? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is from the article entitled, "The Italian 
Armada." 

Mr. Matthews. Which was Balbo's mass flight across the Atlantic 
some years ago? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please identify that publication [handing- 
publication to witness] ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5321 

Mr. Revyuk. This is the Nationalist, New York City, Wednesday, 
August 17. 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. I will read a portion of this. 

The monthly Geopolitik, published in German; by ;i former Gorman general 
and a professor, l>i\ K. Haushoffer, has said the truth about the Ukrainians in 
America. 

The League for ihe Rebirth of the Ukraine in America (Odwu) is closely 
related to the German nazi-ism and Italian fascism. 

The Chairman. It says right in the paper that they are closely 
related. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that a correct translation? I will read it again: 

The monthly Geopolitik, published in Germany by a former German general — 

Mr. Revyuk. General major. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, major general, "and a professor, Dr. K. 
Haushoffer, has said the truth " 

Mr. Revyuk. In the volume for May 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. That is in the volume of Geopolitik. 

Mr. Revyuk. It, said the truth about Ukrainians in America. 

Mr. Matthews. The statement from the Geopolitik by this publica- 
tion of Odwu was as follows: 

The League for the Rebirth of the Ukraine in America (Odwu) is closely 
related to the German nazi-ism and Italian fascism. 

Is that a correct translation? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Will yon identify this publication? 

Mr. Revyuk. That is the Vistnyk of Odwu, December 1932. 

Mr. Matthews. This is from page 3. 

The Chairman. What is the necessity of continuing to read quota- 
tions from these papers? The quotations thus far read establish very 
dearly that this is a Fascist organization in sympathy with Nazi 
Germany and Fascist Itaty. They are linked with it. I am just 
wondering what more is needed to show that? It is in their own 
language. They take pride in announcing the fact that they are 
Nazis. 

Mr. Matthews. Shall I read this one which he has already identi- 
fied. Mr. Chairman? 

The Chairman. You might read one or two more, if you wish. 

Mr. Revyuk. This is an article by Eugene Lachowitch, national 
leader. 

Mr. Matthews. Is this a correct translation of the statement there : 

We have the organization of Ukrainian nationalists, which strives to win hack 
our nationhood by two methods : Constructive and destructive * * * in de- 
structive method by destroying the occupants by means of revolutionary work. 
by keeping alive the militant spirit among our wide masses, and calls them to 
oppose the government and carries out various terroristic acts. 

I> that a correct translation? 

Mr. Revyuk. Yes; correct. 

Mr. Matthews. The remainder of the excerpts, Mr. Chairman, are 
of the same general character. 

The Chairman. I-<et the committee have them for any future ref- 
erence they may want to make of them. If some of these people want 
to be heard, we may need them. Hut I see no necessity to go any 
further into this. From the standpoint of what is the nature of the 



5322 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

organization, it is very clearly a Fascist organization with a direct 
tie-up with international officers in Germany. The fact that the Ger- 
man Government permits them to use the radio and the fact that they 
have encouragement from Germany shows the tie-up. 

If there is nothing else you have in mind at this time, I would 
suggest that this entire transcript be turned over to the State Depart- 
ment for prosecution under the Registration Act; that we prepare 
either a full transcript, or such excerpts as the State Department 
wants, with the recommendation to investigate this matter fully and 
proceed against not only this organization, which is an agent of a 
foreign principal, but also these individuals who are agents of a 
foreign principal. 

The Chair believes also that we have about come to the time when 
the power of the committee ought to be tested with reference to com- 
pelling the Communist Party and the bund and all these Fascist 
organizations either to submit their membership lists to this commit- 
tee or be cited in contempt. 

Here are organizations that have been shown to be nothing in the 
world but agencies of foreign powers. That is all they are under 
their own admission. They provide an elaborate espionage system in 
this country. It is to the greatest interest of the Nation to find out 
who are the Communists among the 100,000 Communists in this coun- 
try and who are the 100,000 members of the bund and the sympathizer 
groups; who are the members of the Ukrainian Nazi group and 
the Italian Fascists and the members of these other organizations. If 
this committee does not have the power to say to them, "Bring your 
membership lists in here where we can see them, so that we may 
advise the Department of Justice and the Secret Service, so they may 
know with whom we are dealing"; if we cannot force these officers to 
do that, then it seems to me the power of this committee and of the 
Congress is very weak. 

As soon as the committee returns, I am going to submit the recom- 
mendation that all of these organizations be subpenaed forthwith, 
be served with a subpena duces tecum, to bring before this committee 
a complete and accurate membership list, and failing to do so that 
the committee cite them for contempt; and that every one of them, 
and their officers, throughout the land, be prosecuted. Because until 
we find out who they are and where they are working, which ones 
are in the Government, which ones are in the Army, which ones are 
in the Navy, which ones are in the trade-union movement ; those who 
are in the aircraft and munition plants and other vital key industries 
in this country; until we know that, we are dealing in the dark. 
They have all refused to bring those^lists to us heretofore. I think 
the time has come to make a test case. If they decline to do so, I 
think we should cite them for contempt. And if, under the existing 
statutes, Congress cannot compel organizations that are secret, that 
are agents of foreign powers, who are potential spies, to come here 
and give us the names of their members and full information con- 
cerning their activities, then it is a confession of great weakness on 
the part of our own democracy. 

Before we adjourn, the Chair will announce that the witness for 
tomorrow will be William Z. Foster, chairman of the Communist 
Party. The committee will recess until 10 o'clock. 

(Whereupon, the committee recessed until 10 a. m., Friday, Sep- 
tember 29, 1939.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 1939 

Special Committee to Investigate 

Un -American Activities, 
House of Representatives, 

Washington, D. C. 

The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. Martin Dies (chairman), 
presiding. 

Present : Mr. Dies, Mr. Voorhis, and Mr. Dempsey. 

Mr. Rhea Whitley and Mr. J. B. Matthews, of committee counsel. 

Mr. Joseph Brodsky, counsel for Mr. William Z. Foster. 

The Chairman. The Chair resolves himself into a committee of one 
for the purpose of hearing this testimony, under the terms of the 
resolution. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM Z. FOSTER, NATIONAL CHAIRMAN 01 
THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF THE UNITED STATES 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand. Do you swear 
that the testimony that you give to the committee will be the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the ruth, so help you God? 

Mr. Foster. I affirm. 

Mr. Brodsky. May I, for the record, state, as I told you a few 
minutes ago, that between 1932 and 1936 Mr. Foster was completely 
prostrated as the result of a heart condition, and he is only partially 
recovered even now. He can stand several hours' examination, and he 
wants to cooperate to the extent of submitting to a complete exami- 
nation. 

The Chairman. I understand that between 1932 and 1936 he had a 
serious heart attack and he is still not completely recovered. 

Mr. Brodsky. He was completely prostrated during that period 
and still suffers from it. 

The Chairman. We will be glad to show him ever} r consideration 
possible. I suggest Mr. Foster make his answers responsive and 
complete, because all we are after is to get the facts. 

Mr. Brodsky. He is willing to do that, even if he has to stay longer 
than today. 

The Chairman. For say about 2 hours at a time? 

Mr. Brodsky. We will try to cooperate and stay as long as possible 
and if necessary come back tomorrow. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please state your full name for the record? 

Mr. Foster. William Z. Foster. 

Mr. Matthews. What is your home address '. 

5323 



5324 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Foster. 1040 Nelson Avenue, The Bronx, New York City. 

Mr. Matthews. What is your business address? 

Mr. Foster. 35 Twelfth Street, New York City. 

Mr. Matthews. What is your position? 

Mr. Foster. Chairman of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Matthews. National chairman? 

Mr. Foster. National chairman. 

Mr. Matthews. How long have you occupied the position of na- 
tional chairman ? 

Mr. Foster. Several years; I cannot say precisely when. 

Mr. Matthews. Has it been 5 or 6 years, or more? 

Mr. Foster. About 5 or 6 years. 

Mr. Matthews. What other positions have you held in the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Foster. I have been a member of the executive committee since 
1921. I have been a member of the secretariat of our party over a 
period of years, when we had a secretariat. I am now a member of 
the political committee. 

Mr. Matthews. Is there still a secretariat? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mr. Matthews. You were a candidate for President on the Com- 
munist Party ticket, were you not? 

Mr. Foster. In 1924, 1928, and 1932. 

Mr. Matthews. Three times? 

Mr. Foster. Three times. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been a candidate for any other 
office on the Communist Party ticket? 

Mr. Foster. For Governor of New York. 

Mr. Matthews. Once? 

Mr. Foster. Once. 

Mr. Matthews. Anv other? 

Mr. Foster. That is all. I think. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you a member of the Communist Interna- 
tional ? 

Mr. Foster. I am a member of the executive committee of the 
Communist International. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you a member of the Communist Interna- 
tional ? 

Mr. Foster. The Communist International has no members. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it not true that all members of Communist 
parties in the various countries are by virtue of their membership 
in those parties also members of the Communist International ? 

Mr. Foster. It is not so understood. 

The Chairman. What was your answer? 

Mr. Foster. That it is not so understood. 

The Chairman. Can you not make it a little more definite? 

Mr. Foster. All parties are members of the Communist Interna- 
tional, but the members — that is the first time I ever heard such a 
question mentioned, as to a member of the Communist International. 

The Chairman. I want to get that definite. You mean that while 
the party itself, as an organization, is a member of the Communist 
International, the members of the party are not members of the 
international? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5325 

Mr. Foster. They do not consider themselves as such; I never 
heard them referred to as such. This is the first time I ever heard 
that. 

The Chairman. This is the first time you ever heard that? 

Mr. Foster. So far as I can recollect. 

Mr. Matthews. What positions have you held in the Communist 
International? 

Mr. Foster. I am a member of the executive and a member of 
the presidium of the executive. 

Mr. Matthews. How long have you occupied those positions? 

Mr. Foster. Oh, probably — I cannot say exactly — probably about 
10 years or more a member of the executive of the Communist Inter- 
national, and a member of the presidium since 1935. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please state for the record as nearly as 
you can recollect, without notes before you, the occasions on which 
you made visits to the Soviet Union, beginning with the first. 

Mr. Foster. All told, I have made a number, some 10 or more. 
I cannot state them all ; I can state a number of them. 

The Chairman. What was the first year? . 

Mr. Foster. The first one was in 1921. The next one, I think, 
was about 1923 or 1924. 

The Chairman. There was a lapse of 2 or 3 years? 

Mr. Foster. Two or three years in between. In 1926 I was there. 
I am not certain about 192o! In 1928, 1929, and 1930, and also, I 
believe, in 1934 and 1935. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean you were there for the entire year? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mr. Matthews. You were there in 1934, and again in 1935? 

Mr. Foster. That is it. My stays averaged from 2 weeks to 6 
or 8 weeks. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you been there since 1935? 

Mr. Foster. Yes; I was there 2 years ago. 

Mr. Matthews. In 1937? 

Mr. Foster. I think it was the beginning of 1938. I do not say 
this is an accurate list of the trips, but it is as good as I can call, 
offhand. 

The Chairman. What about 1939? 

Mr. Matthews. Have you been there in 1939? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Would it refresh your recollection if I told you 
the records of the executive committee of the Communist Interna- 
tional show that you made a speech in Moscow on March 18, 1925? 

Mr. Foster. Probably so. 

Mr. Matthews. You omitted that year. 

Mr. Foster. No ; I think I said I was there in 1925. 

The Chairman. You said you were there in 1923 and then in 1924. 

Mr. Foster. I did not mean to say that. I think T was there in 
1925 and also in 1924. 

The Chairman. You said 1923 or 1924 and then yon said 1926. 

Mr. Foster. I know I was there in 1926, because I wrote a pamphlet 
about it. 

The Chairman. You were there also in 1925? 

Mr. Foster. Quite possibly. 



5326 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. How long were you there in 1925 ? 

Mr. Foster. I could not say. My stays usually last, as I said, 2 
or 3 weeks. 

Mr. Matthews. There is another reference to your being in Moscow 
in December 1925, as well as in March 1925. 

Mr. Foster. That is right, I think that is one trip I did stay 2 
or 3 months ; that is right. 

Mr. Matthews. How long were you in the Soviet Union in 1928? 

Mr. Foster. Very shortly; a matter of a few weeks, perhaps. 

Mr. Matthews. Would that have been the month of August? 

Mr. Foster. I think that was during the Sixth Congress of the 
Comintern, as I recall. 

Mr. Matthews. In July. 

Mr. Foster. It was in the summer, as I recollect. 

Mr. Matthews. You were there for only a few weeks ? 

Mr. Foster. Several weeks. 

Mr. Matthews. At that time ? 

Mr. Foster. That is it, 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please state the purpose of your trip to 
the Soviet Union in 1921 ? 

Mr. Foster. I went there to study the situation. I was not a 
member of the party at the time. I went there to study what was 
going on. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you join the Communist Party as a result of 
that visit to the Soviet Union ? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. The next visit was in 1923; is that correct? 

Mr. Foster. Something like that; early in 1923 or early in 1924, 
3 am not certain. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the purpose of that visit? 

Mr. Foster. The purpose of that visit — I went as a delegate. 

Mr. Matthews. You went as a delegate that year I 

Mr. Foster. As a delegate to the Profintern, or the Comintern, I 
am not certain. 

Mr. Matthews. As a delegate for the Profintern or the Comin- 
tern, or both? 

Mr. Foster. Possibl} 7 . 

Mr. Matthews. That was the first time you were a delegate to 
the Profintern? 

Mr. Foster. The first time I was a delegate ? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Foster. The first time I was a delegate to the Profintern was 
in 1921. 

The Chairman. I do not exactly understand that. A moment 
ago you said you went to Russia in 1921 to study communism? 

Mr. Foster.' That is it, 

The Chairman. You were not a member. How could you have 
been a delegate to the Profintern if you were not a member in 1921? 

Mr. Foster. Because the Profintern was not a Communist organi- 
zation ; it was a trade-union organization. 

The Chairman. You went as a delegate to the trade-union organ- 
ization, but not in the capacity as a member of the Communist 
Party ? 

Mr. Foster. That is it. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5327 

Mr. Matthews. Did you go as a delegate from the Trade Union 
Educational League \ 

Mr. Foster. That is it. 

Mr. Matthews. What was your connection with the Trade Union 
Educational League \ 

Mr. Foster. I was national secretary. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you representing the Trade Union Educa- 
tional League '. 

Mr. Foster. That is it. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you editor of its publication, "The Labor 
Herald"? 

Mr. Foster. I was one of the editors. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you the only editor listed in the publication ? 

Mr. Foster. It is possible I was the only one. 

Mr. Matthews. I know all these things are possible. Could you 
not make it more definite ? 

Mr. Foster. I cannot recall; I know others worked as editors, but 
whether their names were on the masthead, I cannot say. I was 
the responsible editor, but Mr. Browder did the work. 

Mr. Matthews. What was Mr. Browder's official connection with 
the Trade Union Educational League? 

Mr. Foster. He was a member of the executive. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he also the business manager of the Labor 
Herald \ 

Mr. Foster. Yes; he handled that side of it. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the next occasion of your being a dele- 
gate to the Profintern after 1921? 

Mr. Foster. Well, I could not say offhand. I could say — some- 
times — sometimes I went as a delegate to the Communist Inter- 
national Executive and sometimes to the Profintern. 

Mr. Matthews. Could you tell us how many times altogether you 
have been a delegate to the Profintern? 

Mr. Foster. Several times; I could not tell you exactly. I was 
a delegate to the congress, and I was a delegate, I believe it was 
to the Fourth Congress and the Fifth Congress and two or three 
executive meetings in between. 

Mr. Matthews. Could you give us the years in which you had 
connection with the Profintern. from 1921 down to what year? 

Mr. Foster. Well, after 1932 I had no further connection with 
the Profintern. 

Mr. Matthews. Was the Trade Union Educational League an 
affiliate of the Profintern? 

Mr. Foster. It was. 

Mr. Matthews. What name did the Trade Union Educational 
League take later on? 

Mr. Foster. It was reorganized into the Trade Union Unity 
League. 

,\Ii-. Matthews. Was the Trade Union Unity League also an 
affiliate of the Profintern? 

Mr. Foster. Well, informally it was, but we never voted for af- 
filiation, so far as I know. 

Mr. Matthews. But it was all understood, was it not? 

Mr. Foster. More or less loosely. In fact, I understand, while 
I was laid up they disaffiliated with the organization. 



*? 



5328 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. After 1932? 

Mr. Foster. So I heard, but I did not have anything to do with it. 

Mr. Matthews. But for a period of 10 or 11 years you were closely 
connected with the work of the Profintern by virtue of your leader- 
ship in the Trade Union Educational League and the Trade Union 
Unity League? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct, 

Mr. Matthews. You knew the workings and program and objectives 
of the Profintern through those connections? 

Mr. Foster. Eeasonably well. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you not as well or better acquainted with that 
aspect of the work than* anyone else in the Communist Party in the 
United States during that period ? 

Mr. Foster. Well, I would not say that, but I was pretty well posted. 

Mr. Matthews. You were as well posted as anyone else, were you 
not ? 

Mr. Foster. Probably. 

Mr. Matthews. Did Mr. Browder ever accompany you to Moscow as 
a delegate to the Profintern? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did the Profintern send Mr. Browder to China in 

1927? 

Mr. Foster. He was in China ; I do not know whether he was sent 
by the Profintern or not, 

Mr. Matthews. You have no idea ? 

Mr. Foster. I have no direct idea of it: no. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know of any other group he might have 
represented in China? 

Mr. Foster. No ; I do not know what his credentials were. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that your best recollection? 

Mr. Foster. I know he was working in the Profintern work at the 
time. 

Mr. Matthews. He was working in Profintern Avork at the time and 
he did go to China? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you not quite positive he was sent to China by 
the Profintern? 

Mr. Foster. I heard as much, but Mr. Browder can answer that 
definitely. I did not issue his credentials. 

Mr. Matthews. You did not issue his credentials? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mr. Matthews. You were the executive of the Trade Union Educa- 
tional League, were you, at the time? 

Mr. Foster. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Would anyone else in that organization have been 
in a position to issue credentials to Mr. Browder if he had been repre- 
senting the Trade Union Educational League? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mr. Matthews. If he did have credentials from the Trade Union 
Educational League you would have had to issue them ? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

The Chairman. Then, the question is, Did you issue them ? 

Mr. Foster. Not to my knowledge. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5329 

The Chairman. If you bad done it, you would know now, would 
you not? 

Mr. Foster. I think quite possibly. 

The Chairman. It is not a question of possibility; if you bad 
issued the credentials to Earl Browder you would certainly remem- 
ber that now. would you not? 

Mr. Foster. I have been working for many years in organizations 
iu sending delegations and commissions here and there, and whether 
or not I actually wrote out a letter of delegation to Mr. Browder I 
cannot say. 

The Chairman. In other words, you do not remember; you could 
have done it or you could not have done it? 

Mr. Foster. Possibly that is so. I knew he was in China. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever seen that book [handing book to 
witness] ? 

Mr. Foster. I have. 

Mr. Matthews. This is a book entitled "Civil War in Nationalist 
China," by Earl Browder. published by Labor Unity Publishing 
Association. Chicago. 1927. On page 9 of this book Mr. Browder 
says: 

The Internationa] Workers' delegation was composed of Tom Mann, chairman 
of the National Minority Movement of England and one of the oldest leaders 
of the British trade unions; Jacques Doriot, member of the French Parliament, 
elected by the workers of Paris; myself representing the Trade Union Educa- 
tional League of America ; and Sydor Stoler, who acted as secretary and trans- 
lator to the delegation. 

Does that refresh vour recollection, Mr. Foster? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. You are now quite certain? 

Mr. Foster. Yes; but I did not ever issue any credentials; I under- 
stand that was a Profintern delegation. 

Mr. Matthews. Profintern was the international body with which 
the Trade Union Educational League was affiliated? 

Mr. Foster. I think the delegation was organized by it; I do not 
know; I did not organize it. 

Mr. Matthews. By the Profintern. When Mr. Browder says he 
represented your organization, precisely what does that signify? 

Mr. Foster. That would signify precisely that he was one of the 
leaders of our organization. 

Mr. Matthews. Whether he had credentials or not '. 

Mr. Foster. Or not. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that not a matter of consequence? 

Mr. Foster. Not a formal matter; if he was going in such a delega- 
tion, he would be authorized to speak in the name of the organization 
because he was one of the leaders of it. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you apprised of the work of Mr. Browder in 
China, after his return from that country? 

Mr. Foster. He wrote that pamphlet, and I knew in general what 
he was working on. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he not report to you formally or informally, 
as the representative of the Trade Union Educational League, of 
which you were the head, anything concerning his activities there? 

Mr. Foster. Oh, perhaps some general report; I do not recall. The 
main thing I remember was his pamphlet, covering his experience- 
out there. 



5330 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. You say perhaps. Are you not sure lie must have 
reported to you something of the work he had done in China ? 

Mr. Foster. Undoubtedly he did. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know the circumstances of his departure 
from China? 

Mr. Foster. No; I do not. 

Mr. Matthews. He undoubtedly must have reported those circum- 
stances to you; is not that correct? 

Mr. Foster. I do not know his circumstances in leaving China. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he return from China directly, across the 
Pacific Ocean, or did he return via Siberia and Moscow ? 

Mr. Foster. I could not say. 

The Chairman. He has not answered as to whether or not Brow- 
der reported to him as to the reason he left China. Do you recall 
whether he made any such report to you? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

The Chairman. You do not remember? 

Mr. Foster. I do not remember any such report. 

The Chairman. Is it not natural to suppose he would have done so ? 

Mr. Foster. It does not follow. He reported in a general way what 
transpired in China. 

The Chairman. If you had a man representing you in certain sec- 
tions of the world, and then he left that employment, would it not 
be logical for him to report to you why he left ? 

Mr. Foster. He made a report; I do not remember precisely what 
his report was. I do not remember what steamer he took. 

The Chairman. I am not asking you for those little details. 

Mr. Foster. Or what route he took. 

The Chairman. I am not suggesting that. I am asking you the 
broad question, whether or not, when he left China as the represent- 
ative of your organization he ever reported to you as to why he left 
China? 

Mr. Foster. He did not report to me; I think lie reported to 
Profintern, who sent him there. 

The Chairman. He did not report to you ? 

Mr. Foster. In a very general way. 

Mr. Matthews. Did the Profintern pay his expenses to China? 

Mr. Foster. That I could not say. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you pay his expenses to China ? 

Mr. Foster. I think not. 

Mr. Matthews. Could you be more definite about that ? 

Mr. Foster. I think I am positive about it. 

Mr. Matthews. If you did not pay his expenses as a representative 
of the Trade Union Educational League, could there have been any 
other reasonable way in which he received his expenses than from 
the Profintern ? 

Mr. Foster. I could not say ; I do not know. You would have to 
ask him that. 

Mr. Matthews. We have asked him that. Under what name did 
Mr. Browder travel on this mission representing your organization 
and the Profintern on this trip ? 

Mr. Foster. I have no idea beyond his own name, Mr. Browder. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you sure that he traveled under his own name ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5331 

Mr. Foster. I am not sure of that one "way or the other. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he not say he did not travel under the name 
of Earl Browder on that trip? 

Mr. Foster. I am not sure. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you not familiar with precisely what the facts 
of the financing of Mr. Browder's trip to China were, Mr. Foster? 

Mr. Foster. I am not. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that not a matter of discussion in the central 
committee of the Communist Party, of which you were at that time 
an active member? 

Mr. Foster. It may have been; I do not attend all the meetings. 

Mr. Matthews. If it had been discussed would you not have found 
out about it if you had not been there? 

Mr. Foster. Not necessarily. I was on the road for many months 
and did not know about those things. 

Mr. Matthews. If there had been extraordinary circumstances 
around that discussion you would have been told, would you not, 
in view of your close connection with this whole proposition? 

Mr. Foster. Not necessarily. I was not the secretary of the party 
and many things were done without my knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. You were secretary of the organization which Mr. 
Browder says he was representing in China? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear about the $10,000 bill that was 
associated with Mr. Browder's trip to China? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mr. Matthews. You have never heard anything about that $10,000 
bill? 

Mi-. Foster. Never heard about it. 

Mr. Matthews. You did not know that Lozorsky sent a $10,000 
American bill to the United States to be transmitted via this country 
to Browder in China? 

Mr. Foster. I did not know anything about it. 

Mr. Matthews. You never heard directly or indirectly that Mr. 
Browder had had considerable difficulty in getting that $10,000 bill 
exchanged into smaller denominations in the Orient? 

Mr. Foster. I heard it rumored around that he had difficulty in 
China: I heard that about it. 

Mr. Matthews. That he had difficulty in getting a $10,000 bill ex- 
changed into smaller denominations? 

Mr. Foster. I do not know what it was; I heard there was some 
difficulty. 

Mr. Matthews. What did you hear rumored about? 

Mr. Foster. I cannot recollect. 

The Chairman. You said you heard it rumored around; that is. 
that he had some difficulty in getting the $10,000 bill changed? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is that correct? 

Mr. Foster. I said I heard it rumored around that he had some 
difficultv in China. 

The Chairman. In getting the $10,000 bill changed? 

Mr. Foster. The details I do not know. 

The Chairman. I am not asking for details. What you heard was 
that he had some difficulty in getting the $10,000 bill changed ? 



5332 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Foster. I had heard that there were some charges made by 
enemies of our party along- these lines. That is all I heard about it. 

The Chairman. That was the rumor you heard? 

Mr. Foster. That is exactly it. 

The Chairman. What difficulty were you talking- about? 

Mr. Foster. Precisely these charges. 

The Chairman. Difficulty is not connected with charges. 

Mr. Foster. Sometimes it makes lots of difficulties. 

The Chairman. You just testified you heard it rumored around 
that he had some difficulty. You say what you meant was charges by 
enemies of the party? 

Mr. Foster. Exactly. 

The Chairman. What difficulty grew out of the charges made by 
the enemies ? 

Mr. Foster. I did not have any difficulty. 

The Chairman. What difficulty did you have in mind when you 
referred to difficulty? 

Mr. Foster. I say these charges can make difficulties for our party 
and for individuals. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean to say that that was a charge of the 
enemies of the party. 

Mr. Foster. That is all it was, just like I have heard lots of charges 
in this commission. 

Mr. Matthews. That is not responsive. Did you not hear by 
rumors or otherwise, that Mr. Browder eventually took a trip to 
Manila in order to get this $10,000 changed ? 

Mr. Foster. No ; I did not. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever heard, by rumors or otherwise, that 
Mr. Browder entered a bank in Manila and tried to get the $10,000 bill 
changed ; that the bank teller told him he would change it, but that 
he would have to leave it overnight; that he would receipt for it; and 
that meanwhile the bank would cable the United States Treasury, 
giving the serial number, and that upon receiving that advice, from 
the bank teller Mr. Browder grabbed the $10,000 bill and rushed out 
of the bank and fled from Manila? 

Mr. Foster. That is all news to me. 

Mr. Matthews. You do not know that the Profintern closed up the 
entire apparatus of the China work because Mr. Browder went into 
a panic ? 

Mr. Foster. I do not know that, not a thing about it. That is the 
first I ever heard of such a statement. 

Mr. Matthews. You do not know that there is a record of this in 
the Treasury Department? 

Mr. Foster. There are many records in the Treasury Department 
that are not correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Then this cablegram from the bank in Manila was 
forged ? 

Mr. Foster. I do not put a great deal of trust in banks, as a rule. 

Mr. Matthews. But you heard rumors? 

Mr. Foster. That is what I said. 

Mr. Matthews. But what were the rumors you heard ? What was 
it the enemies circulated? 

Mr. Foster. I would have to look up their papers at the time. They 
criticized Browder very severely. They criticized Browder very se- 
verely for his whole China trip. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5333 

The Chairman. What did his enemies say about this $10,000 bill? 
Mr. Foster. I do not know. They just generally attacked the trip 
and made all sorts of assertions, and that is as far as 1 know anything 
about it. 

Tln> Chairman. But they did say something about the $10,000 bill? 
Mr. Foster. I do not know whether they actually mentioned the 
$10,000 bill or not. 

The Chairman. You were being questioned about a $10,000 bill, 
and you said you heard rumors that he had some difficulties, and later 
on you said that what you meant was that you heard charges by ene- 
mies: now, do you mean that those charges did not have anything to 
do with the $10,000 bill? 

Mr. Foster. I do not mean that at all. They made all sorts of 
charges against Browder. 

The Chairman. Including this charge about the $10,000 bill? 

Mr. Foster. That I could not say specifically. 

The Chairman. Can you say it at all, if you cannot say it specifi- 
cally? 

Mr. Foster. No. I cannot say that that was included in it. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know that Mr. Browder was reprimanded 
by the Profintern for mistakes made in China ? 

Mr. Foster. Also not. 

Mr. Matthews. You do not know that ? 

Mr. Foster. I do not know it. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you not know that he admitted those mistakes, 
in writing, in an issue of the Communist? 

Mr. Foster. Possibly. 

Mr. Matthews. The official organ of the Communist Party of the 
United States? 

Mr. Foster. It is possible. We often admit mistakes. There is 
hardly a campaign we conduct anywhere but what we criticize our- 
selves for mistakes made in it. It is quite possible he criticized him- 
selif with regard to his work in China. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, it is not very enlightening to have 
most of the questions answered by saying that it is possible. If the 
witness knows 

The Chairman. You can answer whether you know or not. If you 
do not know. say. "I do not know." If you do know, say, "I know." 

Mr. Foster. I say it is very distinctly the practice of Communists 
in speaking about their work in any sphere of activity to criticize 
themselves and point out the mistakes. This is a fundamental prin- 
ciple of our work, and I dare say if Mr. Browder wrote about his 
activities in China, he would criticize himself. 

The Chairman. What was the question? 

Mr. Matthews. The question is whether Mr. Foster knows, of his 
own knowledge, firsthand, that Mr. Browder did publish an acknowl- 
edgment of the mistakes made in his work in China. 

Mr. Foster. I say I have no direct knowledge of it. But if he did 
It, it would be (mite in line with that practice. 

The Chairman. The question is if you have knowledge. You do 
not have any knowledge? 

Mr. Foster. I have no recollection. 

The Chairman. He says he has no knowledge. 

Mr. Foster. It may very easily have been. 



5334 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Then you would not know, of course, that the 
mistake which was acknowledged was the mistake of becoming 
panicky about the $10,000 bill j 

Mr. Foster. No ; I would not know that. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster, I will ask you please to identify some 
of your publications. Is that a book written by you? [Handing 
baak to witness.] 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Give the title of it. 

Mr. Matthews. The book is entitled, u Mis-Leaders of Labor" by 
William Z. Foster, published by the Trade Union Educational 
League in 1927. 

The Chairman. He identifies that as his book. 

Mr. Foster. I wrote it. 

Mr. Matthews. "Towards Soviet America,'' by William Z. Foster, 
published by Coward-McCann in 1932. [Handing book to witness.] 

Mr. Foster. I wrote it. 

The Chairman. He identifies that as his book. 

Mr. Matthews. And this one? [Handing book to witness.] 

Mr. Foster. "From Bryan to Stalin/' I wrote it. 

Mr. Matthews. Published by International Publishers in 1937. 
Is this also one of yours? [Handing to witness.] 

Mr. Foster. I wrote that also. "Your Questions Answered."' 

Mr. Matthews. By William Z. Foster, published by the Workers 
Library Publishers, June 1939. 

Mr. Foster, are you acquainted with the connections of the Amer- 
ican Communist Party with the Communist International? You 
are, are you not? 

Mr. Foster. Fairly well. 

Mr. Matthews. You are acquainted with the program of the 
Communist International ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. You are acquainted with the statutes of the 
Communist International ? 

Mr. Foster. Not so well, the statutes. They are more or less in 
abeyance. 

Mr. Matthews. What do you mean by more or less in abeyance? 

Mr. Foster. The statutes I have not read since they w T ere formu- 
lated many years ago, so I cannot say that I am very familiar 
with them. 

Mr. Matthews. When did they go into abeyance? 

Mr. Foster. So far as I know, they never went into active opera- 
tion. If I remember correctly, they were adopted in 1935, but if I 
was to be executed, I could not tell you a single article of it. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it not correct that they were adopted by the 
Sixth World Congress in 1928 ? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Is the American Communist Party a section or 
an affiliate of the Communist International? 

Mr. Foster. It is an affiliate. 

Mr. Matthews. Could you explain why the American Communist 
Party, through its regular publishing channels, has brought out 
several editions of the statutes of the Communist International if 
those statutes are in abeyance? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5335 

Mr. Foster. Well, we publish such material, official material of 
the Communist International. 

Mr. Matthews. Official material? 

Mr. Foster. Yes: that is. official statutes. 

Mr. Matthews. They are the official statutes? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. In force today? 

Mr. Foster. I told you they were more or less in abeyance as far 
as the practice is concerned. 

Mr. Matthews. I do not quite understand myself what would be 
official statutes that would also be something in abeyance. Are they 
or are they not the official statutes of the Communist International? 

Mr. Foster. They were adopted, you just told me. in 1928, so they 
must be the official statutes. 

Mr. Matthews. Have they ever been rescinded by the Communist 
International? 

Mi'. Fostek. They were, as I recolleet. revised in the Seventh 
"World Congress and have more or less fallen into abevance from 
lack of application. 

Mr. Matthews. You were a delegate to the Sixth "World Congress 
and also to the Seventh World Congress, were you not? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you participate in the deliberations fully? 

Mr. Foster. But not in that section, not in the formulation of the 
constitution. 

Mr. Matthews. You say that the Seventh "World Congress in 1935 
revised these statutes of the Communist International? 

Mr. Foster. As I recollect, I am not positive, I think there were 
certain modifications made. 

Mr. Matthews. You would not be sure that there were any mod- 
ifications? 

Mr. Foster. Xo: I would not be sure, because we have paid so 
little attention to the constitution. 

Mr. Matthews. You do not know as a matter of fact that not a 
single word, or even so much as the punctuation was changed by the 
Seventh "World Congress? 

Mr. Foster. Quite possible. I was under the impression 

Mr. Matthews. "Why did you think they were revised, then? 

Mr. Foster. Because usually in conventions they do tinker with 
constitutions. That is quite a regular procedure in my experience. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you hear that they were revised? 

Mr. Foster. No: I did not hear they were revised. I just as- 
sumed possibly they might have been revised; and that is what I said. 

Mr. Matthews. But it is also possible that they were not revised? 

Mr. Foster. Very possible, especially as you say they were not. 

Mr. Matthews. Has the American Communist Party ever taken 
the position in its publications that the statutes of the Communist 
International are in force? 

Mr. Foster. That I would not know. 

The Chairman. You are the chairman of the party and you would 
not know such an important matter as that? 

Mr. Foster. We do not consider that very important, about the 
statutes of the Comintern. 

The Chairman. You do not consider it important? 

94931 — 39— vol. 9 6 



5336 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Foster. No. 

The Chairman. And you are the chairman of the party; and you 
are not able to tell this committee whether in your official literature 
you recognize that the statutes of the Comintern are in force. 

Mr. Foster. Formally they are in force, but in actual practice we 
never consult the constitution of the Comintern. As I said, I have 
not even opened the pages of it since it was written, and I could 
not tell you a single article in it. 

The Chairman. Do you know of a single instance in which the 
Communist Party has violated any of the statutes of the Comintern? 

Mr. Foster. And been called to account for it? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Foster. No. 

The Chairman. Do you know of any instance at all in which they 
have violated the statutes? 

Mr. Foster. I do not recollect that the question was ever raised 
in the history of the Communist Party. 

The Chairman. It never has been raised by the Comintern, has it? 

Mr. Foster. Not to my knowledge. 

The Chairman. And never has been raised by anyone in the party 
in the United States? 

Mr. Foster. That I would not say. 

The Chairman. Well, as far as you know. 

Mr. Foster. It has never been raised to my knowledge by the 
Communist International ; oh, there may have been somebody here 
or there that said such a thing was in violation of the constitution of 
the Comintern, but certainly nobody ever paid any attention to it. 

Mr. Voorhis. If the American Party had ever violated any pro- 
vision of the constitution of the Comintern, it certainly is true that the 
Comintern would have spoken up about it, is it not? 

Mr. Foster. Our relations with the Communist International have 
been more or less developed on the basis of practice, not constitutions. 

Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Browder testified that if there were any point 
of disagreement between the American Party and the Comintern, it 
would be necessary for the American Party either to give up their 
point of disagreement or else to withdraw from the Comintern. 

Mr. Foster. If the Communist International would raise a ques- 
tion of fundamental policy, of course, this would be raised; but the 
Comintern has never raised questions of organization. 

The Chairman. That is because you have never had a disagree- 
ment, is it not? 

Mr. Foster. I would not say that. We do not use the constitution 
as a guide. How can I tell whether we have had a disagreement, if 
I have never opened it? 

Mr. Voorhis. The point is, if the Comintern had ever raised such 
a question, you certainly would have known it, would you not? 

Mr. Foster. Over questions of the constitution? 

Mr. Voorhis. Yes; or any other questions of policy. 

Mr. Foster. Yes; it is very likely I should have known it, although 
I have not attended all the meetings. 

Mr. Voorhis. Would you not inevitably have known about it, if 
you had attended meetings or not? Would it not be the most im- 
portant matter that would come before the party in years, if such a 
thing had happened? 



UN-AMERIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5337 

Mr. Foster. Not at all. I told you the constitution of the Comin- 
tern plays such a little role. I have never even read it. 

Mr. Vookhis. Mr. Browder's testimony was to the effect that if 
there was a divergence of opinion between the American Party and 
thi' Comintern, the American Party would either have to recede or 
withdraw from the Comintern, one of the two. 

Mr. Foster. I think if you would read the minutes or the records 
of your commission, you would find that he was speaking about poli- 
tics and not constitution. 

The Chairman. You make a distinction there between politics and 
the constitution. 

Mr. Foster. Of course. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster, you stated a moment ago that the 
statutes of the Communist International were formerly in force. 

Mr. Foster. Formally. 

Mr. Matthews. You said they were in force, and that would make 
the matter all the stronger, if you said formerly. 

Mr. Foster. I said formally — f-o-r-m-a-l-l-y. 

Mr. Matthews. They are formally in force now? 

Mr. Foster. I assume so. I have never heard of them being for- 
mally abolished, so apparently they are still on paper at least. They 
are honored more in the breach than in the observance, I would 
suspect. 

The Chairman. They are honored more in the breach than in the 
observance, is that right? 

Mr. Foster. Well, in the neglect, at least. 

The Chairman. Can you give us a single instance in which the 
statutes of the Comintern have been violated by the Communist Party 
of the United States? 

Mr. Foster. I could not, because I have not read it for 12 or 14 
years: I could not tell you. 

The Chairman. You are the chairman and you do not know of a 
single instance in which there has been a single violation of the 
statutes? 

Mr. Foster. I stated that the role of the constitution of the Com- 
intern plays such a little part, I cannot say whether it was violated 
or not. 

Mr. Matthews. What about the program of the Communist Inter- 
national which is usually printed under the same covers with the 
statutes of the Commmunist International ? What binding effect has 
the program of the Communist International on the constituent par- 
ties of the International? 

Mr. Foster. It is a general statement of Communist principles. 

Mr. Matthew's. Is it considered highly important? 

Mr. Foster. Of course, as a general statement of policy. 

Mr. Matthews. You consider it a guide to general policy? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it not as a guide to general policy sometimes 
ranked alongside the Communist Manifesto of Marx and Engels? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mr. Matthews. It has never been so ranked? 

Mr. Foster. Well, somebody may have said that, but I do not think 
that is the general opinion. 

Mr. Matthews. You have never made that statement? 



5338 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Foster. I do not think I have ; maybe ; one says many things. 
I think generally, though, it is not so ranked. 

Mr. Matthews. But you have in your own writings quoted exten- 
sively from the program of the Communist International, have you 
not? 
Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. You were not concerned lest you leave the impres- 
sion that they had some binding character, were you? 

Mr. Foster. As general principles, yes; but not as a controlling 
document for immediate political situations in the given countries. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you accept the general policy set forth in the 
program of the Communist International? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you accept the principles set forth in the statutes 
of the Communist International? 

Mr. Foster. I would have to read them and then I would let you 
know. I told you half a dozen times I have not read them since 1928 
and I do not know what they are any more, because they played so 
little part in the life of our party. 

Mr. Matthews. But you are more familiar with the program of the 
Communist International, and you say you do accept those principles? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you acquainted with the document known as 
the Twenty-one Conditions for Admission to the Communist Interna- 
tional ? 

Mr. Foster. Also brought out in the dim remoteness. 

The Chairman. Counsel asked you if you were acquainted with 
them? 

Mr. Foster. Yes ; I know the document. 

The Chairman. Make the answer responsive. He says yes, he is 
acquainted with them. 

Mr. Matthews. Has there ever been a period in the past, if not the 
present, when the Twenty-one Conditions for Admission to the Com- 
munist International were considered of a binding character upon the 
Communist Party of the United States ? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. There has never been an} 7 such time ? 

Mr. Foster. No. sir; and it was not used as such. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster, I read you some portions of an edi- 
torial from the Daily Worker of June 1, 1929, 10 years after the 
founding of the Communist International — is that correct '. 

Mr, Foster. That is right. 

The Chairman. Before you read that, let me ask this question: 
Do you agree with Mr. Br'owder that the Daily Worker is an accu- 
rate' publication insofar as Communist principles and policies ai*e 
concerned ? 

Mr. Foster. In a general way. The only thing that can stand 
definitely for Communist policy is stuff signed by the national com- 
mittee. The rest is more or less up to the editorial staff and very 
often they make statements that the party has to disown. 

The Chairman. Then in that respect I think you disagree with 
Mr. Browder, as I remember his testimony. For instance, have you 
ever disowned any statement of the Daily Worker? Do you know 
of any instance? 



UN-AMERICJAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5339 

Mr. Foster. There have been statements corrected. 

The Chairman. Do you knoAv of any? 

Mr. Foster. I could not call any offhand. 

Mr. Voorhis. Were they statements of fact. Mr. Foster, or state- 
ments of policy? 

Mr. Foster. Sometimes either way. possibly. They very often 
have, "Excuse me please," in there. 

Mr. Matthews. I read you from this copy of the Daily Worker 
of June 1, 1929. The heading is, "Who Is Against the Comintern?" 
The article follows: 

It is clear from the address itself that opposition existed in the party 
delegation to the Communist International. Comrades Lovestone and Gitlow 
in their declaration of May 14 refused to accept the address, or to carry it 
out. and even went to the length of stating they would actively oppose it. 
They are thus entering upon a course leading toward an attempt to split the 
party, a course in violation of the Twenty-one Conditious and the Statutes 
of the Comintern. 

From that language it would appear that both the Twenty-one 
Conditions and the Statutes of the Comintern were considered in 
force by the Communist Party of the United States, would it not, 
Mr. Foster ? 

Mr. Foster. That was written some 10 years ago, I understand, in 
the middle of a very severe internal factional struggle, and any 
argument that could be brought up to buttress the point was brought 
up. 

Mr. Matthews. Even if it was an incorrect position ? 

Mr. Foster. It would serve as a sort of an argument to say that 
it was in violation of the constitution. But nobody paid very great 
attention to it. And so far as the violation of the 21 points is con- 
cerned, I do not think there are 2 percent of our members who could 
name 10 of these points, if they wanted to. I know I could not. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you give me a little more definite answer to 
the question ? 

Mr. Foster. What is the question, please? 

Mr. Matthews. The question was, from this statement is it not 
clear that at this time at least the Twenty-one Conditions and the 
Statutes of the Comintern were considered of binding character upon 
the American party? 

Mr. Foster. The 21 points were not in effect at that time. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, this was a false charge brought 
against these high functionaries of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Foster. No. The 21 points laid down in the beginning certain 
general Communist principles of organization; and this is an argu- 
ment 

The Chairman. All he is asking is, is this statement in the Daily 
Worker a correct statement when made, or not. 

Mr. Foster. That statement is correct in the sense that I explain it. 

The Chairman. In what sense? 

Mr. Foster. In the sense that the 21 points stated certain general 
principles of Communist organization. And that this was an argu- 
ment that the action of these people was contrary to these 21 points. 
But certainly not in the sense that if you violate No. 1 of these 
points, you are going to be expelled from the party. 

Mr. Matthews. I would like to rephrase the question. Mr. Chair- 
man. 



5340 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVFriES 

The Chairman. He said the statement was correct in the sense of a 
general statement of policy. 

Mr. Matthews. So I want to ask the question in a different form, 
if I may. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Mr. Matthews. Here were two of the highest functions of the 
Communist Party of the United States charged categorically with 
"violation of the Twenty-one Conditions and the Statutes of the 
Comintern.'" Was that charge brought against these two high func- 
tionaries a correct charge or an incorrect charge? 

Mr. Foster. In the sense that I said it was a correct charge. 

Mr. Matthews. It was a correct charge ? 

Mr. Foster. With this limitation to it, that these were not con- 
sidered binding documents, but statements of general principles. 

The Chairman. In other words, Gitlow and this other man — 
what was his name? 

Mr. Matthews. Lo vest one. 

The Chairman. Gitlow and Lovestone violated general principles 
of policy of the Communist International. 

Mr. Foster. That is all. And they did not violate documents in 
the sense 

The Chairman. The question is, Is that correct, that Gitlow and 
Lovestone violated general principles of policy of the Communist 
International? 

Mr. Foster. And of the Communist Partv in the United States. 

The Chairman. And of the Communist Party in the United 
States. 

Mr. Matthews. Continuing with this statement : 

In this splitting course they do not in any way represent the true proletariat 
spirit of the American party, and will find the party membership solidly lined 
up against them. Comrades Lovestone and Gitlow, on attempts to renew the 
faction struggle on the hasis of opposition to the Communist International, will 
quickly feel the solid determination of the party, which will tolerate no further 
faction activities of any kind. 

Rut let there be no mere mechanical acceptance of the Communist Interna- 
tional address. Such formal acceptance, without application in life of the line 
of policy laid down in it, would he barren. The party discussion now opening 
must take the form of basic self-criticism, of development of inner-party pro- 
letarian democracy, which will eliminate all elements of factionalism and mo- 
bilize the party for its really basic tasks — internally, to combat all traces of 
opportunism, to struggle against the right danger: and externally, to mobilize 
the awakening sections of the working class who are more and more engaging in 
struggle against capitalist rationalization and against the danger of war. The 
party discussion must be made into a keen weapon against all remnants of 
factionalism, as the first steps in a real drive against opportunism, which has 
been deeply embedded in the American party and which must be burned out 
in the fires of merciless criticism, and to concentrate the full energies of the 
party on the practical tasks emphasized in the address. 

Therefore, it is necessary for all party units forthwith to begin a full, thorough, 
honest, self-critical. Bolshevist discussion of the address of the Comintern, and 
of the tasks of the party in the light of this address. * * * 

The Communist Party of United States of America is for the Comintern ! 

Reject and condemn all opposition whatsoever to the Comintern ! 

For a complete Bolshevist application of the address, which shall infuse the 
whole party with the Comintern line, and completely unify its ranks from top to 
bottom on the revolutionary line of the Communist International ! 

From the language of that latter part of this statement, it is clear, is 
it not, Mr. Foster, that the line of the Comintern was considered a 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5341 

binding force upon the members of the Communist Part y of the United 
States? 

Mr. Foster. The line of the Comintern was something that our 
party was involved in as well, and the substance of the attack against 
Lovestone and Gitlow was particularly raising within our party ideas 
and policies that conflicted with the line of our party, which was the 
line of the Comintern. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, the line of the American Com- 
munist Party and the line of the Comintern were identical? 

Mr. Foster. Identical, grown up in the common experience of our 
parties in the various countries based upon the general principles. 

Mr. Matthews. Through the medium of the Comintern? 

Mr. Foster. Through the medium of the life of our party much more 
so than the Comintern. 

Mr. Matthews. Parties you said — the plural ? 

Mr. Foster. The American party? 

Mr. Matthews. The American party? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did the American party adopt the line before the 
Comintern adopted it ? 

Mr. Foster. Well, it sort of grew together. 

The Chairmax. They had a birth all at the same time? 

Mr. Foster. Xo. We have certain basic communistic books and 
doctrines and outlooks and you may be certain that a Communist 
party of China will, if left entirely to itself and isolated, adopt a posi- 
tion almost a hundred percent the same as the American Communist 
Party around a given question. 

Mr. Matthews. And then when they shift those policies 

The Chairman. If I may interrupt, just to get that point clear. 
For instance, take this recent change, the Soviet-Nazi pact. If the 
Communist parties all over the world were completely isolated and 
all of them were following Communist principles as laid down, they 
would all have come to the same agreement and be in favor of that 
Soviet-Nazi pact? 

Mr. Foster. Not always, of course. 

The Chairman. But they would in reference to an important mat- 
ter like this. 

Mr. Foster. In general. 

Mr. Voorhis. Did you have any literature, Mr. Foster, which fore- 
cast the possibility of united action by the Soviet Union and the Nazi 
Government of Germany; any literature which forecast the united 
front of communism and fascism in the world, in the future some- 
time? 

Mr. Foster. First of all, there is no united front between com- 
munism and fascism: and secondly, we had no advance information 
about any of these developments beyond what appeared in the press. 

Mr. Voorhis. Of course, I realized that you would have difficulty 
in this situation, but I just wondered, in view of what you have said 
about all these things being based upon a literature and traditions of 
the movement, whether there could possibly have been any such lit- 
erature and traditions with regard to developments like these: and if 
not. how it turned out that all Communist policy throughout the 
world, within a comparatively few days at least, became of one mind 
on this matter, unless there was some definite statement issued from 



5342 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

some central authority to decide what that line was going to be with 
regard to this matter. 

Mr. Foster. We know an imperialist war when we see it. 

Mr. Voorhis. Is the present war an imperialist war? 

Mr. Foster. It is. 

The Chairman. Whs Russia justified in taking three-fifths of 
Poland? 

Mr. Foster. Russia occupied Poland to keep 

The Chairman (interposing). You can answer that question yes 
or no. Was Russia justified in going in and taking three-fifths of 
Poland ? 

Mr. Foster. One hundred percent, as means of establishing a gov- 
ernment over this section of Poland, something they did not have. 

The Chairman. Russia was justified in going in. 

Mr. Foster. Exactly. 

The Chairman. That is what I am asking. 

Mr. Voorhis. Do you consider the Japanese-Chinese war an impe- 
rialistic war? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. How do you justify the very close assistance that 
Russia is giving to Japan in that respect? 

Mr. Foster. That is not correct. 

Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Browder stated when he was on the stand that 
there was no nonaggression pact between Russia and Japan which 
made it possible for the Soviet Union to unite with Germany, and I 
pointed out to him at that time there had been newspaper accounts 
about the probability of a nonagression pact between Russia and 
Japan, and it was only a few days after that when that was proven 
to be true. 

Mr. Foster. There is no nonagression pact between Russia and 
Japan ; it is true along the Siberian frontier. 

I might say, however, that for many years past the Soviet Union 
has tried to make nonagression pacts with Japan and with England 
and all other countries. 

The Chairman. So it did not hurt the Chinese, the fact that the 
Russians made the pact? 

Mr. Foster. The Chinese don't seem to think so. 

The Chairman. It probably helped them ? 

Mr. Foster. They seem to think so. 

The Chairman. It released some Japanese troops. 

AH right ; go ahead, Mr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster, have you customarily made reports as 
chairman of the Communist Party of the United States to the Con- 
gresses of the Communist International and the Executive Com- 
mittee of the Communist International? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever made such reports? 

Mr. Foster. As chairman; no. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever made a report in any capacity? 

Mr. Foster. Oh, I have participated in the discussions, and when 
with delegations I have made speeches, if you would call them 
reports. 

Mr. Matthews. You would call them reports? 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5343. 

Mr. Foster. If you would call them reports; some people call them 
speeches. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you served on any executive board of the 
Profintern ( 

Mr. Foster. Yes; I was a member of the Executive Committee; the 
Internationa] Executive Committee. 

Mr. Matthews. With headquarters in Moscow? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. You were a member of that Executive Committee 
for a number of years? 

Mr. Foster. Yes; for quite a number of years; probably a dozen or 
more. 

Mi-. Matthews. Have you ever written for Russian papers on Amer- 
ican conditions? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Frequently? 

Mr. Foster. Xo; once in a great while. 

Mr. Matthews. Recently? 

Mr. Foster. Not recently. 

Mr. Matthews. Have your books been translated into Russian and 
published in the Soviet Union? 

Mr. Foster. One of them has : to my knowledge ; I don't know that 
the others have. 

Mr. Matthews. But one has? Which one? 

Mr. Foster. Misleaders of Labor. 

Mr. Matthews. Misleaders of Labor published in 1927? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. It is possible that others have been published but 
I don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you receive royalties on the publication of Mis- 
leaders of Labor from the Soviet Union ? 

Mr. Foster. Not a cent. 

Mr. Matthews. You never received a kopec? 

Mr. Foster. Xo. 

The Chairman. Why is it they have paid Browder royalties when 
his articles were published but they would not pay for your book? 

Mr. Foster. I don't know; that is a long time ago. Maybe they 
are. more flush than when mine was published. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. You do not know whether your recent l>ooks have 
been published in the Soviet Union or not? 

Mr. Foster. Xo. I heard that one of the last books of mine was 
going to be published, but I don't know whether that happened or not. 

Mr. Matthews. Would they take such material, your personal 
property, without authorization and go ahead and publish it without 
letting you know about it until later? Would they appropriate 
your private property? 

Mr. Foster. There would probably be no diplomatic difficulties 
even if they did. 

Mi-. Matthews. They would be at liberty to publish your books 
without asking your permission? 

Mr. Foster. They would, probably. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Foster. Thev might notify me of it. 



5344 ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Your property right in the publications would 
be subject to the disposition of the Soviet Government if they 
Avanted to publish them? 

Mr. Foster. Yes; and any other publisher in this country that 
wanted it ; today, the publishers have my permission in this country 
to do so. 

Mr. Matthews. Publish some of your books without asking if 
you wanted them to ? 

Mr. Foster. It would not worry me a second. 

Mr. Matthews. You would be glad to have them distributed? 

Mr. Foster. Exactly. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster, have you, in your writings and 
speeches over the long period in which you have been an active mem- 
ber of the Communist Party, referred to the Soviet Union as the 
fatherland of the working classes? 

Mr. Foster. It is quite possible. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you not sure that you have? That would 
not be the only remark 

Mr. Foster (interposing). I am not certain, but I should like 
to write it. 

Mr. Matthews. You would be the only leader of the Communist 
Party who had failed to do that, would you? 

Mr. Foster. No; perhaps some have said that and some have not, 
but probably in the next article I will refer to it. 

The Chairman. Anyway it represents your true sentiments ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you likewise written or spoken frequently of 
the impressive leadership of Stalin in the Communist International? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. If you have not you will also do that in your next 
piece? 

Mr. Foster. I have said .that. 

Mr. Matthews. Now on the acceptance of decisions of the Com- 
munist International; you said a moment ago that the Communist 
Party line in the United States tended to appear similar with the 
line of the Comintern: "that they just grew up together," I believe 
was your phrase. 

Is it not true that on some occasions in the history of the Com- 
munist Party of the United States that the Comintern has sent to the 
American Communist Party a line formulated, independent of the 
adoption of such a line in the United States, with definite instruc- 
tions for the American Communist Party to pursue this line? 

Mr. Foster. It is not correct. 

Mi-. Matthews. That has not been done? 

Mr. Foster. Never been done. 

Mr. Matthews. What is the difficulty, technically, with my question 
that prompts you to say that? 

Mr. Foster. There is no technical difficulty; it is just wrong, the 
whole thing, from start to finish. Maybe that is a technical difficulty. 

Mr. Matthews. Has the Communist International passed resolu- 
tions concerning the character of work in the United States which 
have been formulated in Moscow and sent to the American Party for 
its guidance? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5345 

Mr. Fo&fer. Without consultation with the American Party? 

Mr. Matthews. I did not say without consultation. 

Mr. Foster. Nothing that has ever been said at any Comintern or 
discussion about the American situation has been said without con- 
sult at ion with the American delegates, and for the most part was 
written by them. 

Mr. Matthews. May I repeat that question? Has not the Com- 
munist International, on numerous occasions, formulated resolutions — 
if you do not like the word "decisions,"' I would say "'resolutions" — 
concerning the character of work of the Communist Party in this 
country and had those resolutions promulgated by the American 
Communist Party for its guidance? Is that correct? 

Mr. Foster. I answered that. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you answer it yes or no ( 

Mr. Foster. I will not answer it ••yes*' in the narrow sense that you 
put the question. 

The Chairman. He has not put it in a narrow sense; he said formu- 
lated resolutions. 

Mr. Foster. No: nothing attempted or said that was formulated 
in Moscow regarding the American situation has the Comintern, 
without the full and complete discussion with the American Com- 
munist Party, which is completely familiar with the facts 

The Chairman (interposing). He hasn't said that 

Mr. Foster (continuing). And you cannot get me to say yes to 
such a question. 

The Chairman. Mr. Foster, the American Party is an affiliate of 
the Communist International? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

The Chairman. And the Communist International consists of all 
the Communist Parties throughout the world. 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

The Chairman. It issues certain proclamations does it not ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

The Chairman. Your assertion is that all those proclamations, or 
resolutions that are issued are discussed, are with the advice and con- 
sent of the delegates of the American Communist Party who served 
on the Comintern? 

Mr. Foster. Insofar as they relate to the United States. 

The Chairman. That is what I say: and you have delegates on the 
Communist International ? 

Mr. Foster. Xo. 

The Chairman. You do not have any delegates? 

Mr. Foster. Not always. We have had delegates from time to 
time. 

The Chairman. Just like the Communist Party of other sections, 
you regularly send delegates? 

Mr. Foster. Not regularly. Once in a while. 

The Chairman. Just once in a while you send them? 

Mr. Fostek. Whenever there is something 

The Chairman (interposing). How are you consulted: how are you 
consulted with reference to the American policies formulated by the 
Comintern during such times as you do not have delegates? 

Mr. Fostf.r. They do not take up such questions. 



5346 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. They never take up any questions or send any 
resolutions affecting American policies except when you have dele- 
gates in Moscow? 

Mr. Foster. Exactly. 

The Chairman. Is that correct ? 

Mr. Foster. Correct. 

The Chairman. And in every respect the delegates at the Comin- 
tern agree to the resolution? 

Mr. Foster. Insofar as it deals with America at the time. 

The Chairman. That is what I am referring to. 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. Now. Mr. Foster, when the pact was signed between 
Germany and Russia it certainly brought about a complete change in 
the line of the Communist Party in America insofar as the policy was 
concerned, did it not ? I mean, insofar as the line of the party with 
regard to what it should do in the United States was concerned, what 
the general attitude in the United States should be on the foreign 
conflict ; that was changed by that event, was it not ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes; I will answer that question. 

The policy of the Communist Party regarding the question of war 
was based upon the slogan, "Keep America out of Avar by keeping the 
world out of war." 

And we undertook to put that slogan into effect by advocating 
that the United States join with the Soviet Union. Great Britain, 
and France, and the other democracies to make a united peace front 
to hold fascism in check. 

This policy did not succeed because of the failure of Chamberlain 
and Daladier to agree to this general line insofar as the Soviet Union 
was concerned. 

That changed the policy of directing it, trying to direct the attack 
against the Soviet Union, of this whole policy 

The Chairman (interposing). I mean, so far as the United States 
is concerned. 

Mr. Foster. I will speak about that. 

The Chairman. Insofar as Chamberlain and Daladier is con- 
cerned 

Mr. Foster (interposing). The United States, of course, did not 
follow this general line. 

It is true that the Roosevelt administration issued certain state- 
ments to the general effect that they do favor forming a more firm 
policy against Japan and Germany, but certainly could not go into 
such a policy in a collective sense. 

Now then, we hold that this policy did not succeed ; it broke down, 
and so the Communist Party now works upon this slogan; we have 
reduced the slogan from "Keep America out of war by keeping the 
world out of war" to having it read "Keep America out of war." 

Mr. Voorhis. But the significant fact of the matter is that the 
Soviet Union cannot be regarded as a firm cooperator with Britain 
and France; it is now a cooperator with Germany so that it neces- 
sarily, basically changes the attitude of the American Communist 
Party of the United States in what it should do now, and I wanted 
to know if you were consulted about that matter before the thing 
was determined upon. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5347 

Mr. Foster. First of all, as I said, the Soviet Union is not co- 
operating with the Xa/.i Government. The Soviet Union has stopped 
Hitler in the East, and every serious political thinker in the world 
realizes that fact at the present time. 

Mr. VboRms. Has stopped Hitler? 

Mr. Foster. Has stopped Hitler in the cast and has smashed the 
Fascist axis, and even the most conservative political leaders of the 
United States all realize that fact at the present moment. 

The Chairman. Yon think Poland has heen benefited? 

Mr. Foster. The Polish people? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Foster. Of course, they have 

The Chairman (interposing). By that invasion? 

Mr. Foster. Except a few landlords who own hundreds of miles 
of territory and exploit the people under the feudal system; they 
do not like it, but the masses do. 

The Chairman. You believe that if Hitler and Stalin should suc- 
ceed in eastern Europe the people would be benefited? 

Mr. Foster. The people in eastern Europe, in my opinion, if the 
matter was left to them, in any case, would free themselves 

The Chairman (interposing). You mean, if they take over east- 
ern Europe the people would be benefited? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. The people in eastern Europe would be benefited 
and Hitler has been stopped, but Hitler has extended the boundaries 
because of recent advancement in several lines, but your statement 
is on the assumption that it is a choice of nazi-ism or of the Soviet 
Government. 

Mr. Foster. If the policy as made by the Soviet Government had 
been adopted Hitler would not have extended his boundaries one 
inch: in fact, there would not have been a Hitler in Germany, but 
once he started to invade Poland, well, as for my part, I support 
the proposition of these people being left to a free system of gov- 
ernment instead of either the Nazi system or the feudal Polish 
system. 

Mr. Voorhis. You think as between the present system and nazi-ism, 
the Nazi system would be preferable ? 

Mr. Foster. No; I did not say that. 

Mr. Voorhis. Well, I know you did not say that ; I was asking you. 
I did not mean to put words into your mouth. 

The Chairman. Here is what I was trying to find out : You said the 
Polish people were benefited, the masses, by the action of the Soviet 
Union ; that is, by the fact that the Soviet Union now has three-fifths 
of the territory of Poland; you said the masses were benefited? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

The Chairman. They were independent 

Mr. Foster (continuing). That is, for a time. 

The Chairman. That is because Poland was under a feudal system? 

Mr. Foster. Just like some of the people in this country are under 
a feudal system. 

The Chairman. They do not have a feudal system in land operation. 

Mr. Foster. In your part of the country, almost. 

The Chairman. In the South it is a feudal system? 

Mr. Foster. Semi feudal. 



5348 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. All right. Then it would be true that in any capi- 
talistic country that was occupied by Russia the people would be 
benefited ? 

Mr. Foster. Not necessarily. First of all, it was not occupied by a 
capitalistic country. 

The Chairman. The}' took three-fifths of Poland. 

Mr. Foster. Incidentally, it so happens that all this country that 
is now being occupied by the Soviet Union was formerly a part of 
Russia. 

The Chairman. Well, what has that got to do with it ? 

Mr. Foster. Well, it seems to me it had something to do with it, 
especially if a fragment of the Russian people, the White Russians in 
the Ukraine wanted in Russia. 

The Chairman. You think that Russia, on account of the fact that 
part of Poland formerly belonged to Russia is justified for that reason? 

Mr. Foster. Not at all. 

The Chairman. What did you mean? 

Mr. Foster. I say this: That when the British and the French 
Governments refused to go through with the policy of collectively 
securing — and the United States Government also — thereby the 
position 

The Chairman (interposing). That is not responsive to what I 
am asking. 

Mr. Foster (continuing). They surrendered! Poland to Hitler by 
such means. 

The Chairman. What I am now asking you is this : You have said 
that this part of Poland formerly belonged to Russia. 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

The Chairman. And that that made some difference. 

Mr. Foster. Of course, it makes a difference to these Russian 
people. 

The Chairman. You said that because of the fact that Poland, 
that part of Poland now occupied by Russia was formerly a part of 
Russia, that that made the difference. 

Mr. Foster. Of course, it makes a difference. 

The Chairman. In other words, that justifies Russia in occupy- 
ing it? 

Mr. Foster. Not at all. Russia never moved into Poland on any 
such basis. For years these people have been there and Russia 
j itner attempted to move in, but when 

The Chairman (interposing). What was the justification? 

Mr. Foster. But when England and France 

The Chairman (interposing). Forget England. 

Mr. Foster. I would like to forget it. 

The Chairman. You say that it makes a difference. Now what 
is the justification of Russia moving into Poland? 

Mr. Foster. When England and France surrendered Poland to 
Hitler then Russia went in. 

The Chairman. The point I was asking was this: What was the 
justification of Russia moving in on Poland? 

Mr. Foster. I just stated it. 

The Chairman. Because of the attitude of England and France? 

Mr. Foster. In surrendering Poland to Hitler. It was then that 
the Soviet extended its protection over the former Russian people. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5349 

The Chairman. You said it was because they were formerly Rus- 
sian people. You said that, did you not? 

Mr. Foster. That was one of many factors. 

The Chairman. What other factors? 

Mr. Foster. That was an element, after the invasion took place 
by Hitler. ' 

The Chairman. It was an important element? 

Mr. Foster. To these Russian people who were there. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Foster. In influencing the Soviet Government. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mi". Foster. It was a link, was an important factor, as everyone 
in the world knows they welcomed the Red Army. 

The Chairman. Under the same argument would not Hitler, when 
he moved into any place where German people formerly lived, be 
justified? What is the difference between Russia using;* the argu- 
ment or raising the fact that the people were formerly a part of 
Russia and moving in and occupying two-thirds of the land of a 
helpless people, what is the difference between that and Hitler using 
the same argument to occupy another section? 

Mr. Foster. Well, because when the Russian Red Army moved 
into Poland the Polish Government was already destroyed/ 

The Chairman. It was what? 

Mr. Foster. It was already destroyed. 

The Chairman. It was what? 

Mr. Foster. It was already destroyed and it was a question of 
whether these people would surrender to Hitler Or be taken over 
by the Soviet Government. 

The Chairman. Do you not know that before Hitler ever moved, 
before he ever invaded Poland, that he negotiated an agreement with 
Stalin, in which both of them agreed on how thev would divide up 
Poland ? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

The Chairman. Long before he moved in? 

Mr. Foster. I do not, and you do not either. 

Mr. Yoorhis. Here is something that you do know, and no one 
can deny, that first Hitler did move into Poland immediately after 
the pact witli Russia was signed. 

It seeins a n unavoidable conclusion that, the reason he did was 
because he was assured that he would not be opposed by Russia on 
the one hand, and perhaps have its cooperation. 

It is also true that when that happened that it brought the Army 
into Poland. 

How can you say that Russia was the guardian of these people under 
those circumstances? 

Mi-. Foster. You just ask those people and see how they received 
the Red Army and whether they accepted them as a guardian. 

The Chairman. Of course, they received 1,800,000. and it would not 
be a question of whether they wanted them. 

Mr. Foster. They welcomed them. And yon know that as well as 
I do. and everybody that reads even the New York Times knows this. 

The Chairman. The New York Times — is it as accurate as the 
Dailv Worker? 



5350 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Foster. Not always; but once in a little while there is some- 
thing important creeps in. 

The Chairman. But not insofar as the editorial read is concerned? 

Mr. Foster. Oh, I said it was a correct editorial. 

The Chairman. It was a correct editorial ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

The Chairman. Qualified by your statement that it only represents 
general principles. 

Mr. Foster. Exactly. 

Mr. Voorhis. I would like to ask you one more question, and then 
I will keep quiet. You said a while back that whenever the Communist 
International developed a line which was supposed to apply to Ameri- 
can conditions that in every case the representatives of the American 
party were consulted about that matter and agreed that it would work 
under American conditions. 

Now, in that connection, a few years ago the Communist Interna- 
tional, as I understand it, set forth certain lines or grounds that would 
not have been good for the American Communist Party, in the opin- 
ion of two of the American Communist leaders, and those two leaders 
were regarded thereafter as traitors to the entire cause and as attempt- 
ing to split the party. 

Now is not that what happens when there is an attempt on the part 
of anyone in the Community Party to assert any independent judg- 
ment to that of the Communist International as a whole? 

Mr. Foster. These people were expelled by the American Communist 
Party after they attempted definitely to split our party and seize our 
papers, to grab our headquarters. What are you going to do with 
people like that, I would like to know ? 

The Chairman. Treat them as Stalin does ? 

Mr. Foster. I would like to interject that coming, Mr. Dies, from 
your section of the country, I think you should be very cautious 
about throwing out broad accusations against the Communist Party 
if you consider the fact that the people throughout your section, 
the Negro people, that so far as their rights 

The Chairman (interposing). I do not see how you can com- 
pare them with the millions of people slaughtered in your father- 
land, Russia. 

Mr. Foster. There were no millions of people slaughtered in 
Russia. 

The Chairman. Go ahead, Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Foster. I believe you asked me a question, Congressman. 

Mr. Voorhis. Yes ; I did. The question was, it seemed to me that 
Mr. Gitlow and Mr. Lovestone, the real reason they were expelled 
from the party was because of the attempt or influence to develop a 
party line which they believed would not be in accord with their 
views as to what was best under American conditions. Whether 
that is true or not I do not know, but I do know that in the Daily 
Worker they were accused of sabotaging the movement because of 
the fact that in the meetings of the Communist International they 
disagreed with the general movement 

Mr. Foster (interposing). That is not correct. They were ex- 
pelled for attempting to split our party. 

Mr. Voorhis. The Daily Worker said 

Mr. Foster (continuing). I want to say that Mr. Gitlow appeared 
before your committee and misrepresented himself as national secre- 
t ary of our party. He was never national secretary of our party. 



l/X-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5351 

Mr. Vooriiis. What was he? 

Mr. Footer. He was one of the members of the Central Com- 
mittee. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he a member of the secretariat? 

Mr. Foster. Possibly he was. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he or was he not? Yon must know. 

The Chairman. You know he was not secretary? 

Mr. Foster. I will furnish you the information. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, you know, do you not? 

Mr. Foster. I will furnish you the information. I am answering 
the question. I will furnish you the information. I do not recall 
at the moment. But he was never the secretary of the party; Mr. 
Git low was never secretary. 

The Chairman. Who was secretary during the period that Mr. 
Git low referred to? 

Mr. Foster. We have to admit of having Lovestone, but don't 
foist both of them on us. 

The Chairman. During the time Gitlow was secretary, or said 
he was secretary, you say that he was not, but Lovestone was. Is 
that right? 

Mr. Foster. First it was 

The Chairman. How do you know that is correct, Mr. Brodsky? 

Mr. Brodsky. I ascertained the facts from my client. I represented 
Mr. Gitlow when he was convicted and got him out. 

The Chairman. You represented him, but you are not a member of 
the party? 

Air. Brodsky. No; I am not. 

The Chairman. All right ; proceed, Doctor. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster, you said that territory of Poland now 
occupied by the Soviet Union was formerly a territory belonging to 
Russia. Was it not formerly. Ions: prior to its occupation by the 
Soviet Union, also a part of Poland? 

Mr. Foster. Well, if you want to go into the whole history of Europe 
and everything else, the matter of seizure, the United States is built 
up with all sorts of seizures. 

Mr. Matthews. And so this is a continuation of the seizure? 

Mr. Foster. Xo; it is not. You inquired whether this had been a 
part of Russia. 

Air. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Foster. No. It represents a build-up of Russia, just as all 
capitalist countries were built up, including the United States. 

But this is just a little different case of building that is taking 
place, and I am sure that all of the capitalist countries in the world 
understand the little difference. 

Mr. Matthews. And this is a move on the part of Russia to 
restore it? 

Mr. Foster. Xo; that is not the point. The landlords seized Poland 
and enslaved its people. The present movement in Poland is to give 
freedom to these people. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster, you believe the United States should 
join the Soviet Union, do you not? 

Mr. Foster. I think it would be a very good idea if the United States 
would enter into a cooperative movement with the Soviet Union so 

94031—39 — vol. 9 7 



5352 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

that between the two of them they would be able to write a decent 
peace treaty and not leave it to the British Tories to write another 
Versailles Treaty. 

Mr. Matthews. That is not responsive to my question. The ques- 
tion can be answered categorically, yes or no, whether you believe the 
United States should join the Soviet Union. 

Mr. Foster. Of course not. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever so written? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mr. Matthews. I read you from page 272 of your book entitled 
"Toward Soviet America" : 

The American Soviet Government will join with the other Soviet Govern- 
ments in a World Soviet Union. 

What do you make of that, Mr. Foster ? 

Mr. Foster. What has that got to do about joining the Soviet 
Union ? 

Mr. Matthews. That is what you said. 

Mr. Foster. That was joining up with the Soviet Union or some 
other aggregation. I am telling you why you 

Mr. Matthews. It would be true, if you joined? 

Mr. Foster. I am telling you — you don't want to hear my answer, 
but I am telling you the practical relationship I would urge for the 
United States and the Soviet Union is to work along for the ultimate 
real peace of the world. And, furthermore, we are going to do it, 
whether you like it or not. 

The Chairman. Is that what you meant when you wrote that? 

Mr. Foster. No; that was written before Hitler's time. 

The Chairman. Well, what did you mean when you wrote this? 
Did you mean a different thing from what you do now, or not? 

Mr. Foster. Of course, the situation is changed now very definitely. 

The Chairman. What did you mean then? 

Mr. Foster. What I meant then was that eventually the United 
States, in a socialist period, would link up with the rest of the 
socialist countries of the world. That is what I meant. 

The Chairman. Link up in what way? 

Mr. Foster. On a world scale. 

The Chairman. In one big Soviet Union, of which the United 
States would be part? 

Mr. Foster. Well, you can call it that, but certainly they would 
have to take a place amongst them. Even under capitalism we have 
a League of Nations. 

The Chairman. I know; but we are asking you about your lan- 
guage — if you meant that the United States would become one of the 
republics of the Soviet Union? 

Mr. Foster. I say that eventually the United States will become a 
socialist country and, as such, it will link itself up internationally with 
other socialist countries. 

The Chairman. And would be part of a soviet union ; is that right ? 

Mr. Foster. No ; that is not right. 

The Chairman. Read the language again, Mr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. Just let me ask this first. 

The Chairman. All right. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5353 

Mr. Matthews. Is not the Soviel Union now composed of a score, 
more or less, of so-called autonomous republics? 

Mr. Foster. Of its own peoples. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, is it, or not? 

Mr. Foster. Of its own peoples. 

The Chairman. How many different nationalities? 

Mr. Matthews. How many autonomous republics are in the Soviet 
Union today ? 

Mr. Foster. About 20 or more. 

Mr. Matthews. How many? 

Mr. Foster. About 20 or more ; I cannot say precisely. 

Mr. Matthews. And do not you envisage the addition, one by one, 
or half a dozen by half a dozen, of other countries which, of necessity, 
will become members of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics? 

Mr. Foster. I have no idea whatever 

Mr. Matthews. I will read the language again : 

The American Soviet Government will join with the other soviet governments 
in a world soviet union. 

"Soviet Union" is in capital letters. 

Mr. Foster. So what ? In a world socialist federation. 

The Chairman. That is what I want to know — So what ? 

Mr. Foster. I have said that half a dozen times, but you don't want 
to accept what I say. namely, that as a socialist country the United 
States would naturally link up with other socialist countries. I say 
that we call it a "Soviet Union;" you may call it a "League of 
Nations." I don't know what you would call it. 

The Chairman. But it will be one big organic whole, of which the 
United States will be a part? 

Mr. Foster. I don't know precisely what it will be; but certainly 
they will get together. 

The Chairman. What did you mean by that language ? 

Mr. Foster. I am sure a group of socialist countries of the world 
would never go through such insanities 

The Chairman. I know, but what did you mean ? 

Mr. Foster. I am answering the question — such insanities as the 
world is now 7 experiencing, and in the World War which wiped out 
30 million, and now we have another world war. They will figure 
out something better than that. 

The Chairman. They will figure out what Russia has figured out? 

Mr. Foster. It might be a good idea. 

Mr. Voorhis. Xo; they would have to figure out something better 
than that. 

Mr. Matthews. I would like to read some other passages from Mr. 
Foster's book Toward Soviet America. Reading from page 133 : 

All the capitalist democracies, the United States included, are only the dicta- 
torship of the bourgeoisie, masked with hypocritical democratic pretenses. 

Did you believe that when you wrote it? 
Mr. Foster. This was written before Hitler. 
The Chairman. What has that got to do with it? 

Mr. Foster. Because the world situation 

The Chairman. Well, Hitler has now moved over with Stalin. 
Mr. Foster. Well, we will see about that. The world situation has 
changed very substantially since Hitler has come into power. When 



5354 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

that was written, the question of the continuation of democracy in 
the world was not the central issue; but, since Hitler has risen, the 
question of the extinguishment of democracies throughout the world 
has actually become a very live question. In this period, although 
the Communists have always defended the democratic liberties of the 
people and tried to develop and extend them, nevertheless we carried 
on a very sharp criticism of capitalist democracy. Now, since Hitler, 
fascism has appeared and the question of democracy is involved, and 
we are now taking up more actively the defense of the capitalist 
democratic system, bad as it is, or imperfect as it is, as being better, 
of course, by far, than fascism. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster, in 1932, when you wrote this book pre- 
sumably, was it your understanding that the democracy of the United 
States was a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie ? 

Mr. Foster. Of course, it is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. 

Mr. Matthews. It still is? 

Mr. Foster. It still is. It is a capitalist country, controlled by the 
great capitalist interests of the country. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it still masked with hypocritical democratic 
pretenses ? 

Mr. Foster. Well, certainly 

Mr. Matthews. It was in 1932, according to your language, was it 
not? 

Mr. Foster. I would say that certainly the principal spokesmen of 
the real rulers of America, men such as President Hoover and Ford, 
and people of this character, when they speak — and those were the 
people in power at that moment — when they speak of "democracy," 
it is a hypocritical pretense. And these people, if they have their 
way 

Mr. M \tthews. That is not responsive, Mr. Chairman, in any sense 
of the word. 

Mr. Foster. That is 100 percent responsive — and these people, if it 
is left to them, will lead America right straight into fascism. And 
that is what this was written against. 

The Chairman. Repeat the question again. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster, in 1932, you declared that the democ- 
racy of the United States was a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, 
masked with hypocritical democratic pretenses, and you did not spec- 
ify Mr. Ford or Mr. Hoover or anyone else in the United States 

Mr. Foster. I believe the Hoover government was in power at the 
moment. 

The Chairman. Well, is that statement true? 

Mr. Foster. That statement as applied to the Hoover government 
is certainly correct. 

The Chairman. It is not true now ? 

Mr. Matthews. It is no longer correct? 

Mr. Foster. Since 1932 undoubtedly there has been a large growth 
of democracy of one kind in the United States. 

Mr. Matthews. But it is still a government which you describe as 
a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie ? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct; it is a capitalist government. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; but no longer masked with hypocritical pre- 
tenses; is that your distinction? 

Mr. Foster. With the reservations that I made, that the real rulers 
of America, when they speak of "democracy," it is a hypocritical pre- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5355 

tense. And if they have their way, if the workers and farmers and 
others permit them to have their way, in spite of their mouthings of 
"democracy," they will lead America straight into fascism. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it correct to say we still have a dictatorship of the 
bourgeoisie, but no longer masked with hypocritical democratic pre- 
tenses, as you declared it was in 1932? 

Mr. Foster. I have answered it. Such a question cannot be an- 
swered "yes" or "no." 

Mr. Matthews. Well, you wrote this; I am asking you about your 
own language. 

Mr. Foster. I have explained it completely. 

Mr. M vi thews. In your hook Toward Soviet America, in which 
you envisage this country, when it becomes a socialist country, as you 
put it. you made it quite clear, did you not, Mr. Foster, that the tran- 
sition from the present dictatorship of the bourgeoisie to the socialist 
society would be through a violent overthrow of the existing govern- 
mental institutions of this country? 

Mr. Foster. Well, do yon want me to answer that question? 

Mr. Matthews. I think you can answer "yes" or "no." 

Mr. Foster. Oh, yon do? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; I think so. 

Mr. Foster. Well. I don't. 

The Chairman. He is just asking you if you made that statement; 
he is just asking yon if yon made the statement. Is that correct? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Foster. No ; that is not. 

The Chairman. You can answer whether you made the statement. 

Mr. Foster. You can read my book; I wrote the book. 

The Chairman. He is asking you if you made that statement. 

Mr. Foster. He is asking me, and I demand the right to answer it. 

The Chairman. Repeat the question. 

Mr. Matthews. The question is: In his book, Toward Soviet 
America, he envisages this country ultimately becoming a Socialist 
country. That is the whole tenor of the book. Now, I ask him if in 
this book he did not make it quite clear that in the transition from the 
present dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, which he calls this country, 
to a socialist society, violence would be inevitable? 

The Chairman. That is a plain question. If you have a different 
opinion now. you can express it. He is merely asking you if, in that 
book, yon did envisage that situation. 

Mr. Foster. You don't have to ask about the book. I told him I 
Avrote the book. 

The Chairman. That is not answering the question. 

Mr. Foster. If you want me to elaborate on that, I will be very 
glad to. 

The Chairman. No; he is just asking you if in the book you did 
envisage — what did you ask? 

Mr. Matthews. The violent overturn of the present order before 
the socialist society could be achieved. 

The Chairman. Now, you certainly can answer that question. 

Mr. Foster. Yes; and I request permission to answer it. 

The Chairman. Well, did you make such a statement? 

Mr. Foster. I request permission of this commission to state fully 
what I mean by that, not to be compelled to answer "Yes" or "No" on 



5356 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

such fundamental questions. And if the committee resists that, it is 
because you are 

The Chairman. Now, you just sit there. We are not going to have 
any lectures from you. We want to be courteous to you, but you have 
to be courteous to the committee. Now, what I am asking you is this : 
Did you make the statement in the book that this transition would be 
brought about by violent means? 

Mr. Foster. I said I wrote the book, but it is not 

The Chairman. That is not an answer to the question. Did you 
make that statement? The Chair wants to be fair with you. 

Mr. Foster. If I have an explanation, might I be permitted to make 
the explanation ? 

The Chairman. Sure you are permitted, if you make it pertinent 
and not too long. We are not going to sit here and listen to a long 
dissertation. 

Mr. Foster. I will make it very pertinent. 

The Chairman. Now, did you make that statement? 

Mr. Foster. I made the statement in the book. 

The Chairman. Does that statement represent your ideas now ? 

Mr. Foster. I will state what my ideas are. 

Mr. Matthews. I will read you some excerpts here from his 
book 

The Chairman. And then, in justice to him, let him say whether 
he has changed his views at the present time. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster has already stated that he accepts the 
program of the Communist International; that is correct, is it not? 

Mr. Foster. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And in your book you have quoted extensively 
from the program of the Communist International; that is also 
correct, is it not ? 

Mr. Foster. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. On page 214, you give this quotation from the 
program of the Communist International : 

The conquest of power by the proletariat does not mean peacefully "captur- 
ing" the ready-made bourgeois state machinery by means of a parliamentary 
majority. The bourgeoisie resort to every means of violence and terror to 
safeguard and strengthen its predatory property and its political domination. 
Like the feudal nobility of the past, the bourgeoisie cannot abandon its 
historical position to the new class without a desperate and frantic struggle. 

I read you again from page 213 : 

The capitalists will not give up of their own accord ; nor can they be talked, 
bought, or voted out of power. To believe otherwise would be a deadly 
fatalism, disarming and paralyzing the workers in their struggle. No ruling 
class ever surrendered to a rising subject class without a last-ditch open fight. 
To put an end to the capitalist system will require a consciously revolutionary 
act by the great toiling masses, led by the Communist Party ; that is, the 
conquest of the state power, the destruction of the state machine created by 
the ruling class, and the organization of the proletarian dictatorship. The 
lessons of history allow of no other conclusion. 

Again, on page 219 : 

* * * Capitalism will not grow into socialism. The great masses of 
toilers must be in a revolutionary mood ; they must have the necessary organi- 
zation and revolutionary program ; they must smash capitalism. This all 
means that they must be under the general leadership of the only revolutionary 
party, the Communist Party. 

And so on. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5357 

The Chairman. As I understand, he does not dispute he made 
the statements, because he acknowledged he wrote the book. 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

The Chairman. You don't dispute you made those statements, at 
the time in question? 

.Mr. Foster. Of course not; but I want to state my position. 

The Chairman. Now you want to explain your position at the 
present time? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And then? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right, 

Mr. Foster. These quotations from the Communist International 
refer 

Mr. Matthews. I beg your pardon, Mr. Foster, only one of them 
is from the Communist International ; the other two are your own. 

Mr. Foster. Yes; I will speak of that. They are not in con- 
tradiction. The statements from the Communist International refer 
to a world in which there are many forms of governments — demo- 
cratic, autocratic, and so on — and these refer to the revolutionary 
processes in general. 

Now, revolution was not invented by Karl Marx or Lenin ; revolu- 
tions took place before they were born. They simply analyzed the 
processes by which they occur. Revolutions cannot be organized by 
anybody; they occur when situations become ripe for them — par- 
ticularly exchanges in the economic base of society. We in the United 
States have experienced two revolutions, in 1776 and 18G0, and 
what I said in that book is definitely based upon the experience of the 
American people in those two revolutions. And in these two revolu- 
tions we see the process, that is, this revolutionary process, working 
out amongst the democratic people. And how does it work? Take 
the revolution of 1860, for example. This was a real revolution, in- 
sofar or inasmuch as it transferred the political power from one class 
to another — from the Southern landholders to the Northern indus- 
trialists. It was a revolution and with it went a basic change in the 
Nation's economy. 

And how did this revolution take place? First of all, the ma- 
jority of the people voted for the revolutionary party which, at that 
time, was the Republican Party — not only voted for it, but put it into 
office with a majority of the people. 

The southern landholders, as I say, there refused to accept the deci- 
sion of the majority of the people of the United States, and they de- 
clared a civil, or there developed a civil, war against the legally con- 
stituted revolutionary government of the United States. And that is 
where the violence comes from. 

In a democratic country the masses of the people can vote them- 
selves into power peacefully, and Marx and Engels recognized that 
almost 100 years ago, and whatever violence occurs comes from the 
minority that is voted out; that is, if it is really a revolution as we 
saw in 1776 and as we saw in 1860. And in those statements there 
is no advocacy of violence, no organization of violence ; merely a point- 
ing out that in such situations the class that is displaced will have 
recourse to violence. 



5358 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. In other words, what you meant when you were 
writing that was that if the majority voted a given way and the 
minority refused to accept the decision of the majority, then you think 
that force would be applicable to compel the minority to follow the 
decision of the majority? 

Mr. Foster. I don't have to think about it. You can look at what 
happened in our Civil War. 

The Chairman. I am asking you, Is that what you meant? 

Mr Foster. I had particularly in mind our experience in the Civil 
War. 

The Chairman. That is what you meant and that expressed your 
views then and now ? 

Mr. Foster. I say that the northern government 

The Chairman. I am not talking now about that; I am talking 
about what are your views with reference to whether or not force is 
only justified after the majority have spoken and the minority have 
refused to obey the majority? 

Mr. Foster. Of course. The masses never 

The Chairman. Does that express your view ? 

Mr. Foster. The masses never use force— — 

The Chairman. Does that express your view ? 

Mr. Foster. The masses, the majority on either side 

The Chairman. Does that express your view that force is only ap- 
plicable if a majority have voted and have reached a decision and the 
minority refuses to abide by it? 

Mr. Foster. In general, yes. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Foster. That the government that is elected by the people will 
defend itself, as it did in 1860. 

Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Foster, you said just a moment ago that in a 
democratic country the people could vote into power such govern- 
ment as they chose to do ; but once that democracy has been destroyed, 
by whatever type of proletarian government, then their opportunity 
to do that is gone, is it not? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct; that is the danger of countries like 
Germany and others. 

The Chairman. Well, you have answered it. Let us go ahead. 

Mr. Matthews. I want to go back to this question of the secretary- 
ship of the party. 

Mr. Foster stated he could not recollect whether or not Ben Gitlow 
was a member of the Secretariat; that he would have to look up 
the records. Is that what you stated? 

Mr. Foster. Yes ; that is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. The Daily Worker of March 16, 1929. has the fol- 
lowing announcement by the plenary session of the Central Executive 
Committee of the Communist Party: 

Th plenary session of the Central Executive Committee selected the new sec- 
retariat of the party, which consists of Comrades Max Bedacht, William Z. 
Foster, and Ben Gitlow. These are coequal secretaries and have the follow- 
ing functions assigned to them : Agitation and propaganda, Secretary Bedacht ; 
trade unions, Secretary Foster ; executive secretary, Gitlow. 

Now, have you any recollection of that? 

Mr. Foster. If it is in there, it is probably correct. 

The Chairman. Then he was executive secretary of the party? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5359 

Mr. Foster. But still he was not "The Secretary." 
The Chairman. He Mas and he was not \ 

Mr. Foster. No. If that is in the period of Lovestone. Lovestone 
was the secretary. After Lovestone was gone, then we had Browder. 

Mr. Matthews. What does the word "coequal"' mean to von, Mr. 
Foster? 

.Mr. Foster. Well: Ave have a general secretary, also. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Gitlow did not say he was "national secretary" 
or "general secretary," but "secretary." He is characterized here as 
"executive secretary." 

Mr. Foster. I was not present here, and I go on the newspaper re- 
ports that Mr. Gitlow appeared as the secretary of the party. 

Mr. Matthews. Do not you think it is a hit strange, you having been 
associated, as one of the three members of the secretariat, with Mr. 
Gitlow 

Mr. Foster. Not a bit. Our secretaries change very much and we 
have many, and our leading bodies have changed. 

Mr. Matthews. Now; there is no doubt in your mind that Mr. Git- 
low was executive secretary in the period specified? 

Mr. Foster. In that sense, but he was not general secretary of the 
party. 

Mr. Voorhis. Were there any other secretaries at that time? When 
they had the three of you there acting as the secretariat, w T ere there 
any others there then? 

Mr. Foster. It must have been either Lovestone or Browder. 

The Chairman. You know T it was not Browder. 

Mr. Foster. If I knew the date — what is the date ? 

Mr. Matthews. 1929. 

Mr. Brodsky. He did not come into it until 1930. Lovestone was 
secretary of the party from the time it was organized until 1927, or so. 

Mr. Voorhis. In other words, the distinction that is being made is 
a distinction between "general secretary" and "executive secretary," as 
I understand \ 

Mr. Foster. Yes. We have an executive secretary now. Browder 
is the general secretary and he is the leader of the party. 

The Chairman. Who is the executive secretary now \ 

Mr. Foster. Stachel. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman. I would like to go back to where we 
left off. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. Just before the Nazi-Soviet pact, on the question 
of the resolutions of the Comintern being transmitted to the United 
States. Mr. Foster, I show you a portion of the Daily Worker of 
February 12, 1929 [exhibiting]. You recognize that as the typog- 
raphy and lay-out of the Daily Worker, do you not \ 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. This statement is entitled "C. I. Resolution on 
Negro question in U. S. A," and "C. I." stands for "Communist 
International"? 

Mr. Foster. Correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Reading one paragraph from this resolution of the 
Communist International — paragraph 4 it is numbered — we find: 

It is the duty of the Negro workers to organize through the mobilization of 
the broad masses of the Negro population the struggle of the agricultural labor- 



5360 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

ers and tenant farmers against all forms of semifeudal oppression. On the other 
hand, it is the duty of the Communist Party of the United States of America to 
mobilize and rally the broad masses of the white workers for active participation 
in this struggle. For that reason the party must consider the beginning of sys- 
tematic work in the South as one of its main tasks, having regard for the fact 
that the bringing together of the workers and toiling masses of all nationalities 
for a joint struggle against the landowners and the bourgeoisie is one of the 
most important aims of the Communist International, as laid down in the resolu- 
tions on the national and colonial question of the Second and Sixth Congresses of 
the Comintern. 

Now, I ask you, Mr. Foster, if this resolution is not one which set 
forth in some detail a program touching the Negro population of the 
United States? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. To be carried out by the Communist Party in the 
United States ; that is what it is, is it not ? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. And was not this program here, entitled "A Reso- 
lution," a program or resolution of the Communist International, as 
stated in the title? Apart, now, from the processes by which it was 
arrived at, it is so titled, is it not? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Why could not or did not the American Communist 
Party think up its own program and promulgate its own program 
among the Negroes in its own name; why must the name of the 
Communist International be brought in to give authenticity or au- 
thority to this program? 

Mr.* Foster. The fact of the matter is that was all developed by 
the American delegates and about all there is "Comintern" about it 
is the name on it. As far as an explanation of the thing, with regard 
to the reference to the Comintern policy, the Comintern all over the 
world has a settled policy and in its general line advocates the freeing 
of oppressed nationalities. And I do not think you will find any- 
where in the world a nationality so deeply oppressed as the Negroes in 
America. They are worse off than the Jews under Hitler. 

The Chairman. Are they worse off than the people of Russia? 

Mr. Foster. The people of Russia are doing very nicely, thank 
you — they are doin<r very nicelv, thank you. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you think the Neero population of the United 
States would like to move to Germanv and live under Hitler? 

Mr. Foster. Whether they would like to live under Hitler, I am 
not in a position to say; but I certainly know they would like to 
abolish the Jim Crow system and the other outrages which they are 
subjected to in the United States, and which is one of the blackest 
marks on the history of the American people. I know that much. 

Mr. Matthews. And you think the Negroes in the United States 
would like to have the same privileges, opportunities, and rights that 
the Jews living in Germany now have ? 

Mr. Foster. I don't speak about the Jews in Germanv. 

Mr. Matthews. You did speak about the Jews in Germany. 

Mr. Foster. I say the Negroes in America are worse off than the 
Jews in Germany, bad off as they are. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, the Negroes in the United States 
would like to have the same privileges, opportunities, and rights that 
the Jews now have in Germany? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5361 

Mr. Foster. You will have to ask the Negroes that. I told you 
the facts, and you can draw such conclusion as you please from it. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster, will von please name for the commit- 
tee as many of the Comintern representatives who have been sent to 
the United States for work with the American Communist Party as 
you can recall offhand? 

Mr. Foster. That is something else I have heard a lot of rumors 
about without a great deal of fact. The fact is that the Comintern 
has never followed the policy of sending representatives to the United 
States, especially to the United States. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please name as many as you can recollect 
of Comintern representatives who have come to this country? 

Mr. Foster. I know one — Harry Pollitt. I think he had creden- 
tials from the Comintern. 

Mr. Matthews. He did come as a representative of the Comintern? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. During what period was that? 

Mr. Foster. I think it was in 1929, upon our invitation. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Do you recall a man who was known at times, at 
least, as Charles Johnson? 

Mr. Foster. Charles Johnson is a very common name. I cannot 
say that I do. 

Mr. Matthews. You do not recall in your own work association 
with a man by the name of Charles Johnson ? 

Mr. Foster. It is possible. The name is familiar. I think I did 
know him. 

Mr. Matthews. You think you knew him? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What other names did you know him under? 

Mr. Foster. Johnson, I think, is all I can recollect. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you not know him under the name of Scott, 
also, quite frankly? Did you know him under that name? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir; I knew Johnson. I do not know whether 
he was known as Scott. 

Mr. Matthews. You do not recall that alias of Scott? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthew t s. What was your association with Charles Johnson, 
now that you recall the name? 

Mr. Foster. I met him in the Comintern. 

Mr. Matthews. In the Comintern? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. In Moscow? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Where was he from? 

Mr. Foster. I did not know what his nationality was. He was 
Lithuanian, I believe. 

Mr. Matthews. He was a Lithuanian. That is correct. Did he 
not come to the United States as a Comintern representative, and 
was he not, in that capacity, quite closely associated with you? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You did publish articles by him, though, in the 
Workers Monthly, did you not? 

Mr. Foster. I cannot be sure, but it is quite possible. 



5362 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. In February 1925 you have such an article by 
Charles E. Johnson? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. There are some other references there to Mr. 
Johnson. Was he in this country when he wrote that piece for the 
magazine ? 

Mr. Foster. I do not think so. This article, I think, is about the 
Profintern Congress. He Avas engaged in Profintern work. 

Mr. Matthews. Would you state that Mr. Johnson was never, to 
your knowledge, in the United States ? 

Mr. Foster. Never to my knowledge ; no, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You state that, from your knowledge, he was 
never in the United States ? 

Mr. Foster. To the best of my recollection. 

Mr. Matthews. You know that Johnson was a Lithuanian dele- 
gate to the Comintern ? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir ; to the Profintern. 

Mr. Matthews. You said he was a representative to the Com- 
intern. 

Mr. Foster. Yes; but I meant to say the Profintern. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know, or did you ever know, a man who at 
times, at least, used the name of Gussev ? 

Mr. Foster. I have heard of him. 

Mr. Matthews. You never met him? 

Mr. Foster. I do not know him ; no, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever know him under the alias of Green? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear rumors that the man Green 
you knew was also Gussev ? 

Mr. Foster. I do not recall it. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know a man named Jenks, or M. Jenks? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Who has published pamphlets for the Communist 
Party in the United States? You never heard his name? 

Mr. Foster. I do not recall it. We publish many pamphlets 
It is possible. 

Mr. Matthews. You do not know a man named Marcus? 

Mr. Foster. I do not recall him. 

Mr. Matthews. You did not know that Marcus and Jenks were 
the same man, with different names? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir; that makes it doubly sure that I do not 
know him. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Ewart? 

Mr. Foster. I know Ewart. 

Mr. Matthews. Where did you know him ? 

Mr. Foster. In the United States. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know that Mr. Browder, when he was on 
the stand, testified that Ewart was never in the United States? 

Mr. Foster. I know nothing of that. 

Mr. Matthews. In what capacity did you know him ? 

Mr. Foster. I understood he was passing through the country- 
Mr. Matthews. As what ? 

Mr. Foster. As some sort of emigrant from Europe. 

Mr. Matthews. Not from the Soviet Union ? 



UN-AMERIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5363 

Mr. Foster. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Not an emigram* of the Comintern in the United 
States? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir; he was a member of the German party. 

Mr. Matthews. Do von know a man named linst, from England? 

Mr. Foster. 1 have seen the name, but I do not know that I know 
the man. 

Mr. Matthews. Do von know Dengel, of the German Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Foster. T met him in Moscow. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever meet him in the United States? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You do not know that he was a Comintern repre- 
sentative here? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever know Reinstein? Boris is the first 
name. 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir; I know him. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Where did you know him? 

Mr. Foster. In Moscow. 

Mr. Matthews. Not in the United States? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he ever here? 

Mr. Foster. He was never here. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Do you know Nolitzek? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir. 

Mi-. Mattheavs. You never heard the name? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir. 

Mr. Mattheavs. You state here that, with the exception of Harry 
Pollitt, you never kneAv of a Comintern delegate or Comintern repre- 
sentative to the United States? 

Mr. Foster. I think that is correct. 

The Chairmax. There should be no thinking about it. You should 
make it positive. Is that a correct statement of it? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir; I think so. There haA^e been men here from 
time to time from other parties. 

The Chairmax. He is talking about the Comintern. 

Mr. Foster. From other parties, and sometimes they have been 
loosely referred to as Comintern delegates. 

Mr. Matthews. Where have they been loosely referred to as Comin- 
tern delegate- \ 

Mr. Foster. In the press. 

Mr. Matthews. In the press of the party? 

Mr. Foster. Sometimes. 

Mr. Mattheavs. In other Avords, members of the Communist Party 
have referred to them as Comintern delegates, or that is what you haA'e 
just said \ 

Mr. Foster. I have seen it when it was not justified. 
Mr. Matthews. Will yon please name some of the men who have 
been referred to in that maimer in the party press, among the ones 
I have mentioned \ 

Mi-. Foster. I do not know that Avas actually in the press, but in 
party circles. 



5364 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. In party circles it was known that they were Com- 
intern delegates in this country ? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir ; it was not known — it was said. 

Mr. Matthews. The party members did not know about it, but they 
just said it? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir ; that is it. 

Mr. Matthews. They did not know that they were Comintern repre- 
sentatives ? 

Mr. Foster. I can give an example, of Mr. Pepper. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Pepper ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. There were many people who said he was a 
Comintern representative, but it was not true. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is the Comintern delegate to the United States 
at the present moment? 

Mr. Foster. There is none. 

Mr. Matthews. Not sitting in the national committee or any com- 
mittee of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Foster. Sitting nowhere. 

Mr. Matthews. Did the Communist International send a delegate 
to the United States to supervise the work of the party at the very 
beginning of the party, in 1922, about the time you joined the party? 

Mr. Foster. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you not rather well informed about the party 
activities at that time. 

Mr. Foster. Pretty well, I think. 

Mr. Matthews. If there had been delegates of the Comintern to the 
United States to supervise the work of the party, you would have 
known about it, would you not ? 

Mr. Foster. I think so. 

Mr. Matthews. And you say that there was no such ? 

Mr. Foster. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. You would have known about it? 

The Chairman. I think we had better recess. 

Mr. Brodsky. Mr. Chairman, do you have any idea how long the 
session will be this afternoon? 

The Chairman. Suppose we start ait 2 o'clock and run for 2 more 
hours. 

Mr. Brodsky. As you know, Mr. Foster came voluntarily and wants 
to cooperate with the committee. 

The Chairman. We will take a recess until 2 o'clock. 

(Thereupon the committee took a recess until 2 p. m.) 

after recess 

The committee reconvened at 2 p. m., Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) 
presiding. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. You may pro- 
ceed, Mr. Matthews. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM Z. FOSTER— Resumed 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster, in the report of the Fourth Congress 
of the Communist International — and this congress was held in 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5365 

November and December 1922 — there appears the following statement 
on page 25 : 

We were able to send a delegate to America who remained there for some 
time. 

Do you know who that delegate was? 

Mr. Foster. Before I answer that question, Mr. Chairman, I would 
like to enter a protest at the unfair way in which Mr. Browder was 
treated at this morning's session. 

The Chairman. We have been over that this morning. You want 
to make speeches, and now you complain that we have not been abso- 
lutely fair. Let us not have any more of that. You are being asked 
questions, and you are not here to make protests. 

Mr. Foster. I am making one nevertheless. 

The Chairman. All right, proceed, Mr. Matthews. Ask him to 
either answer the question or say he does not know. 

Mr. Foster. I will answer the questions. You had Mr. Browder, 
and had the right to ask Mr. Browder about this $10,000 — this myth- 
ical $10,000 bill. 

The Chairman. You are not to volunteer any more statements, but 
are here to answer the questions responsively. 

Mr. Foster. I have responded. 

The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. I will read the quotation again : 

We were able to send a delegate to America who remained there for some 
time? 

"Will you please state who that delegate was? 

Mr. Foster. I have no idea. 

Mr. Matthews. I am reading now from this report, which is the 
official report of the Communist International, that there was a dele- 
gate sent here. 

Mr. Foster. I have no knowledge one way or the other. I do not 
know whom it refers to, or what the inference is. 

Mr. Matthews. You stated this morning that if such a delegate 
had been sent since 1922 you would have known it. 

Mr. Foster. It is possible. I worked all over the country. I was 
working at Chicago at that time, and the party headquarters were 
in New York. I did not know everything that was going on. 

Mr. Matthews. You stated this morning that if such a delegate 
was sent, you would know him. 

Mr. Foster. I said I probably would know. That is what I said. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who it was? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You stated this morning that you were the editor 
of Labor Herald. 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a bound volume of Labor Herald, one 
of which contains a photograph. This is from the issue of August 
1924. I ask you if you recognize the one on the left ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is that? 

Mr. Foster. That is Johnson. 



5366 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. You stated this morning that you were willing 
to state under oath that Johnson had not been in the United States, 
and that you met him only in Moscow. 

Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. According to the subcaption here in this maga- 
zine, Charles E. Johnson is listed as a delegate to the Red Interna- 
tional Labor Union from America. How could he be a delegate to this 
meeting from America if he had never been in America ? 

Mr. Foster. I said if he had been, I did not know it. I said I did 
not meet him. I know that many years before he had been in the 
United States. 

Mr. Matthews. He was a delegate to the R. I. L. U. from your 
organization, according to this magazine. 

Mr. Foster. That is it. 

Mr. Matthews. But you have never met him here? 

Mr. Foster. I never met him in America. For many years before 
I knew he had been in the United States. 

Mr. Matthews. You did not say that this morning, did you? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir; you did not ask me that. I did not meet 
him here. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it not strange that a delegate from your own 
organization, with only two or three of them, would not be known 
to you? 

Mr. Foster. There were several of us. There were a number of 
us, in fact. 

The Chairman. How many? 

Mr. Foster. The total American delegation probably ran up to — 
I would have to approximate it. 

The Chairman. Well, approximate it. 

Mr. Foster. Probably about a dozen to twenty. 

The Chairman. You do not remember that man, or you do not 
remember meeting him in the United States? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir; I did not meet him here. There were other 
delegations there. I did not meet him. 

Mr. Matthews. He was one of the members of the delegation to 
the R. I. L. U. ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Who were the other members? He was also a 
member of the executive bureau? 

The Chairman. How many members were there ? 

Mr. Matthews. The photograph shows eight. 

Mr. Foster. Whatever it shows is correct. I do not remember, 20 
years ago, how many there were in the bureau. 

The Chairman. Is that correct or not? 

Mr. Foster. If it says eight, it is correct. 

The Chairman. You were with this man, but you say you do not 
remember meeting him in the United States? 

Mr. Foster. First, I did not serve with him on anything. He was 
one person at the Congress. 

Mr. Matthews. He is listed as a member of the executive bureau. 

Mr. Foster. The executive bureau, I know, did not meet during the 
Congress. 

Mr. Matthews. It met when this photograph was taken? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5367 

Mr. Matthews. It did meet. 

The Chairman. It met just for one photograph? 

Mr. Foster. I do not know. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that the usual custom? Plow often is that 
done '. 

Mr. Foster. I do not think it would be very 

Mr. Matthews (interposing). It was done on that occasion? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. Usually during the convention the executive 
hoards do not meet. 

The Chairman. You do not have any independent recollection 
about its meet ing at all \ 

Mr. Foster. No, sir; I do not have any recollection of it. It may 
have met. The convention was the thing that we were interested in, 
and usually during the convention the executive boards do not meet. 

The Chairman. Do they meet at all ? 

Mr. Foster. Between conventions. 

The Chairman. Did this one meet between conventions? 

Mr. Foster. I never attended that executive board meeting. 

The Chairman. Did this particular board ever meet that you recall ? 

Mr. Foster. Not when I was present. 

Mr. Matthews. Except when they were photographed. 

The Chairman. Is he in the photograph ? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Foster. I would like to add to that, if there is any question 
about attending a meeting, I am not trying to say I did not attend a 
meeting. Whatever meeting was there, I attended it. I have no 
recollection of the meeting, or of what transpired. If you have a 
photograph that was taken 

Mr. Matthews. You are in the photograph? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. There are a number of delegations, including dele- 
gations from Russia, Czechoslovakia, England, America, Spain, 
France, and so forth. Two are reported absent, one from Germany 
and one from Italy. Apparently there were 10 members of the execu- 
tive bureau of the R. I. L. U. 

Did you say this morning that you were acquainted with Pepper? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Alias Pogany ? 

Mr. Foster. I think that was his real name. 

Mr. Matthews. And alias Schwartz? 

Mr. Foster. I never knew him by that name. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Browder identified him as alias Schwartz. 

Mr. Foster. He knows, perhaps. I do not. 

Mr. Matthews. You think his real name was Pogany? 

Mr. Foster. I think it was. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he a Hungarian ? 

Mr. Foster. So I understand. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know him as a delegate from the Comin- 
tern to the United States? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir; I did not, 

Mr. Matthews. If the Comintern recalled Pepper from the United 
States, will you please explain what they were recalling him for? 

94931— 39— vol. 9 8 



5368 TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Foster. On the basis of the recommendation of the American 
party. They more or less recommended that he go away, as he was a 
delegate from some other party, as I understand. 

Mr. Matthews. You understand that he was a delegate from some 
other party? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir ; I do not. He came from some other party, but 
I do not know that he was a delegate. 

Mr. Matthews. Why was he recalled ? 

Mr. Foster. Upon the request of the American party. 

Mr. Matthews. He was recalled upon the request of the American 
party ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he recalled on the demand of the Comintern? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. He was not ? 

Mr. Foster. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. If Stalin said that, Stalin was stating something 
falsely or incorrectly ? 

Mr. Foster. I do not know what Stalin said about it. 

Mr. Matthews. You have read Stalin's speeches on the American 
party ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir; but I do not know what he said about that. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you not especially well acquainted with Stalin's 
speeches on the American party ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. You know that you are mentioned in those speeches ? 

Mr. Foster. A number of times ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You know he said that Lovestone and Gitlow were 
expelled from the Communist Party for factionalism? 

Mr. Foster. That is what he said. 

Mr. Matthews. Did Stalin say that you were equally guilty of 
factionalism ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. Lovestone and Gitlow were expelled, and 
later Lovestone and Gitlow, after that speech was made, undertook 
to split the Communist Party. 

Mr. Matthews. Did not Stalin state that Foster was equally guilty 
of factionalism with Lovestone and Gitlow ? 

Mr. Foster. He stated 

The Chairman (interposing). Did he state that? 

Mr. Foster. Just a moment; I refuse to be put in the position of 
stating something that is not true. 

The Chairman. Go ahead and state whether Stalin said that or not. 
He said that Stalin made a certain statement, and the question is, Do 
you know whether he made such a statement ? 

Mr. Foster. If it is in the book, he made the statement because that 
is a verbatim report. 

Mr. Matthews. I suppose Mr. Foster is familiar with this docu- 
ment, as it involves 

The Chairman (interposing). Read the statement. 

Mr. Matthews. This is Stalin speaking: 

What did Comrade Foster talk to me about? He complained of the factional- 
ism and unprincipleness of Comrade Lovestone's group. What did I answer him? 
I admitted these sins on the part of the Lovestone group, but at the same time 
added that the same sins were characteristic of the Foster group. On the basis 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5369 

of this Comrade Foster arrives at the singular conclusion that I sympathize with 
the minority group. Where is the foundation, one asks? On what grounds is 
Foster pleased to think that I failed to see the defects of the minority group 
and even sympathized with that group? Is it not obvious that with Comrade 
Foster the wish is father to the thought? 

I want to ask you about Mr. Pepper. You stated categorically that 
Pepper was not recalled by the Comintern. I read you from page- 

Mr. Foster (interposing). It was upon the demand of the American 
party, I said. 

Mr. Matthews. I read from page 13 of Stalin's speech on the 
Communist Party of the United States: 

Twice the Comintern demanded Comrade Pepper's return to Moscow. The 
central committee of the American party resisted. 

Was that the demand of the American Communist Party for 
Pepper's return? 

Mr. Foster. It was we who demanded the return of Pepper re- 
peatedly. 

The Chairman. Then Stalin's statement is not correct? 

Mr. Foster. It is correct also. 

The Chairman. Read the statement again. 

Mr. Matthews It reads: 

Twice the Comintern demanded Comrade Pepper's return to Moscow. The 
central committee of the American Communist Party resisted. 

The Chairman. Is that a fact? 

Mr. Foster. The sense of that is that the Lovestone group of the 
American party resisted. We did not resist. We demanded his 
return, and it was upon the basis of our demand that he was removed. 

The Chairman. Stalin himself said you represented the minority 
group of the party. 

Mr. Foster. At certain times we represented a minority group, but 
I am pretty sure that we were convinced at that time that we rep- 
resented the majority. 

Mr. Matthews. At the time he represented the minority group — 
that was the time that the Comintern demanded the return of 
Pepper. 

Mr. Foster. Frequently we were in the minority in the central 
committee, but practically our position had become one of represent- 
ing the majority of the party. It was apparent a short time after, 
with the combination, that we did represent an overwhelming ma- 
jority of the party. 

The Chairman. Stalin in that same speech said you represented 
a minority of the party. He said that twice the Comintern de- 
manded the return of Pepper, but that the central committee of the 
Communist Party, which means the majority, resisted. They rep- 
resented how many? 

Mr. Foster. They represented a majority of the party on the cen- 
tral committee. 

The Chairman. And they twice resisted it. Is that true? 

Mr. Foster. They did not twice resist, but they several times 
resisted. Our opinion seemed to prevail. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall why the minority group headed by 
you insisted on Pepper's return in compliance with the demand of 
the Comintern? Why did you do that? 



5370 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Foster. I did not catch that. 

Mr. Matthews. Why did you insist on Pepper's return to Moscow 
in compliance with the demand of the Comintern ? 

Mr. Foster. Because we thought he was a menace to our party, 
that his whole political line was detrimental to the work of the Amer- 
ican Party. 

•Mr. Matthews. Did Stalin credit you with that motive? 

Mr. Foster. I do not know what he credited me with. It is what- 
ever he says there. 

Mr. Matthews. On page 14 he says : 

The Foster group wants to demonstrate their solidarity with the Comintern 
by demanding the carrying out the decision of the Comintern regarding Pepper's 
recall. 

The Chairman. Is that correct ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. Carrying out the decision of the Comintern 
was in line with the policy of our party and its best interests, as we 
understood it. 

Mr. Voorhis. How long after this was it that the change took 
place in the secretariat of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Foster. I think it was just a few days after that speech was 
made — probably a week or two — that Lovestone sent directions from 
Europe to his followers in the United States to split the Communist 
Party, and thereupon he was expelled. 

Mr. Voorhis. That did not have anything to do with the fact that 
your group, as was read just a minute ago, was trying to maintain 
solidarity with the Communist International? 

Mr. Foster. I don't get the point of the question, please. 

Mr. Voorhis. Did the fact that only a few days after this the 
Lovestone group was expelled from the party logically follow from 
Mr. Stalin's remark in that speech that was just read, to the effect 
that your group was endeavoring in every possible way to maintain 
solidarity with the Communist International? Was that the reason 
the Lovestone group was put out of the party ? 

Mr. Foster. That went along with the general reasons, that the 
line of Lovestone to split the party would naturally split it with the 
Comintern. We opposed that. 

Mr. Voorhis. And the fact that they did not go along with the 
Communist International meant that therefore they had to be purged 
out of the American Party, and the minority group remain in control I 

Mr. Foster. That is not correct. The fact of the matter is that 
when the split came, and the test came as to who represented the 
majority, the actual Lovestone group represented about 1 percent of 
the partv and we represented the rest. 

Mr. Voorhis. There would probably be disputes about that on 
both sides. 

Mr. Foster. It is a matter of statistics, how many were expelled. 

The Chairman. It is Stalin's own word, though, that you repre- 
sented the minority in the party. What higher authority could you 
have than his own words? 

Mr. Foster. I said that we represented formally a minority in 
the central committee, but actually the membership of our group 
plus a segment of the Lovestone group represented at least 98 per- 
cent of our party. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5371 

The Chairman. But you were in the minority at the time that 
speech was made? 

Mr. Foster. In the central committee, formally; that is all. Actu- 
ally w<> were in an overwhelming majority, plus the group that was 
splitting from Lovestone already. 

Mr. Dempset. You are very familiar with this speech, are you? 

Mr. Poster. Reasonably. 

Mr. Dempset. In your opinion, are the statements made by Stalin 
correct in every respect? 

Mr. Foster. I think so. 

Mr. Dempset. You would not differ with him, would you? 

Mr. Foster. I would not challenge that report. I think it is correct. 

Mr. Dempset. Would you challenge anything he might say? 

Mr. Foster. Of course. 

Mr. Dempset. You would? If he said that you were the minority, 
would he be incorrect or correct? 

Mr. Foster. I have answered that several times already. 

Mr. Dempset. Well, just answer it now. 

Mr. Foster. I said that formally we were a minority in the central 
committee. 

Mr. Dempset. You are not answering my question. If he said that 
you were the minority in the party at the time he spoke, was he correct 
or incorrect ? 

Air. Foster. He did not say that. 

Mr. Dempset. I am asking you, if he did say that — — 

Mr. Foster. He did not say it ; no. 

Mr. Dempset. If he did say it, would he be correct or incorrect? 

Air. Foster. He did not say it. 

Air. Dempset. May we have the statement read again ? 

The Chairman. Read the statement. 

Mr. Matthews (reading) : 

On what grounds is Foster pleased to think that I fail to see the defects of the 
minority group, and even sympathize with that group? 

Xow, Mr. Foster identified the minority group as his group. 

Air. Dempset. At that particular time he says that you are of the 
minority group? 

Mr. Foster. That is right. 

Mr. Dempset. Is he correct or incorrect? 

Mr. Foster. The minority of the central committee. 

Mr. Dempset. Was he correct or incorrect? 

Mr. Foster. He was correct, of course. 

Mr. Dempset. He could not be incorrect, could he? 

Mr. Foster. Xot when he makes a correct statement. 

Mr. Dempset. Well, he could not be anyway, could he? 

Mr. Foster. Oh, I think so. 

Mr. Dempset. I think, if you felt that way, and he knew 7 it, you 
would still be of the minority party, if you were in it at all. 

Mr. Foster. Well, that is your opinion. 

Mr. Dempset. That is my opinion. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster, getting back to this question of Pepper's 
recall, is not Stalin saying that you or your group was demanding the 
carrying out of the decision of the Comintern, and not the other way 



5372 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

around, as you tried to make it appear — that it was the Comintern 
carrying out the decision of the American Party ? 

Mr. Foster. It was we that secured the decision in the first place. 

Mr. Matthews. Stalin was not aware of that ? Is that the assump- 
tion we are to make ? 

Mr. Foster. I don't know whether he was aware of it or not; but 
we were the ones that were responsible for it. 

Mr. Matthews. And do you still say that you do not know what it 
was precisely that the Comintern demanded Pepper's recall from?' 
Was it from some position in the party that he held in the United 
States? 

Mr. Foster. Just from the party. 

Mr. Matthews. Just from the party ? 

Mr. Foster. Just from the party. 

Mr. Matthews. But you did say that he was a delegate from some 
other party ? 

Mr. Foster. I did not say that. He came from some other party. I 
don't know whether he was a delegate. I don't think he was a delegate. 

Mr. Matthews. Wouldn't you know whether he was a delegate or 
not? 

Mr. Foster. Yes ; I probably would with regard to Pepper. He was 
no delegate, so far as I know. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what about the regard with which Com- 
munists who remain in the Comintern hold the institution? Has it 
ever been referred to as "the holy of holies of the working class," for 
example ? 

Mr. Foster. Possibly. I do not know. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Don't you recall that Stalin himself described the 
Comintern as "the holy of holies of the working class" ? 

Mr. Foster. Well, if he did, I don't recall it, 

Mr. Matthews. In speaking of you and your group, in this imme- 
diate context, he warned both you and the majority group that you 
were trying to make a stock exchange or a stock market out of the 
Comintern, and then he says : 

But, comrades, the Comintern is not a stock market. The Comintern is the 
holy of holies of the working class. 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Don't you recall that ? 
Mr. Foster. I didn't recall that ; no. 
Mr. Matthews (reading) : 

The Comintern, therefore, must not be confused with a stock market. 

Did you ever speak of Moscow as "Mecca" ? 

Mr. Foster. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. You never heard Moscow referred to as "Mecca"? 

Mr. Foster. I have heard it referred to as Mecca. 

Mr. Matthews. In party circles ? 

Mr. Foster. Well, mostly from our enemies; sometimes in party 
circles. 

Mr. Matthews. Didn't you use it in cablegrams back and forth ? 

Mr. Foster. I don't know. I don't recall it. 

Mr. Matthews. I read you a cablegram which was sent from the 
political committee of the Communist Party, of which committee you 
were a member, which reads, to begin with, as follows : 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5373" 

Inform E. C. C. I. (Executive Committee of the Communist International) 
Polcom (Political Committee) accepted decision following delegation leave in- 
stantly -Mecca. Ben Jack Bill. 

Did not the "Mecca" here refer to Moscow? 

Mr. Foster. I do not know anything about that cablegram. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who Ben, Jack, and Bill were? 

Mr. Foster. Oh, I know Ben, Jack, and Bill, but I don't know what 
that cablegram — I don't know whose cablegram it is or where it came' 
from or anything about it. 

Mr. Matthews. That was a cablegram sent by the political com- 
mittee of the Communist Party, of which you were a member. 

Mr. Dempsey. I would like to know who Ben, Jack, and Bill are. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know the names? 

Mr. Foster. I know many names of Ben, Jack, and Bill. 

Mr. Dempsey. You said you knew. 

Mr. Foster. Sure I do. I know a lot of Bens, Jacks, and Bills, but 
I am not going to identify any Ben, Jack, or Bill on the basis of a 
cablegram that I do not know anything about. 

Mr. Dempsey. That is not answering the question. You said you 
knew who Ben, Jack, and Bill were. 

Mr. Foster. That is my answer now. 

Mr. Dempsey. Do you know them? 

Mr. Foster. I said I do not know anything about that telegram. 

Mr. Dempsey. I did not ask you about the telegram. I asked if 
you know Ben. Jack, and Bill. If you do, who are they ? 

Mr. Foster. That is my answer. 

Mr. Dempsey. "Well, who are they? 

Mr. Foster. That is my answer. 

Mr. Dempsey. I insist, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. You stated that you knew who Ben, Jack, and 
Bill were. 

Mr. Foster. Please read my response. 

The Chairman. Read the answer. 

(The reporter read as follows:) 

Oh, I know Ben, Jack, and Bill, but I don't know what that cablegram — 
I don't know whose cablegram that is, or where it came from, or anything 
about it. 

Mr. Dempsey. He says he knows who they are. 

Mr. Foster. I know Ben, Jack, and Bill. 

The Chairman. Who are they? 

Mr. Foster. In our party? 

Mr. Dempsey. Yes. 

Mr. Foster. I am Bill. 

The Chairman. Who is Jack: Jack Stachel? 

Mr. Foster. I would not say that. 

The Chairman. Well, you do not know who Jack is? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Perhaps I can refresh his memory, Mr. Chairman. 
Was it Johnstone? 

Mr. Foster. I could not say. There are several Jacks, and I refuse 
to identify anybody as delegates upon the basis of a telegram that 
I know nothing about. 

Mr. Dempsey. Nobody asked you about a delegate. Dr. Matthews 
asked you if you knew Ben, Jack, and Bill, and you said you did.. 



5374 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Foster. Well, I have answered the question. 

Mr. Dempsey. Then your answer is incorrect; you do not know 
Ben, Jack, and Bill ? 

Mr. Foster. Not in connection with that telegram. 

The Chairman. In connection with anything, do you know Ben, 
Jack, and Bill in the Communist Party? 

Mr. Foster. I know several Bens, Jacks, and Bills. 

Mr. Dempsey. Name them. 

Mr. Foster. Let's see. Well, I am Bill. Then there is Jack 
Johnstone, and there is Ben Gold; but I do not say that this tele- 
gram refers to them. 

Mr. Dempsey. I did not ask you anything about that. 

Mr. Foster. But we are speaking about this telegram. 

Mr. Dempsey. No ; I am speaking about those names. 

Mr. Foster. But you are dealing with this telegram. 

Mr. Dempsey. I am speaking about. Ben, Jack, and Bill, that the 
doctor referred to, and that you said you knew. 

Mr. Foster. My friend, I am not going to let you identify me with 
a telegram 

The Chairman. Wait a minute; no comment. Proceed, Mr. 
Dempsey. 

Mr. Dempsey. Your answer is either correct, or it is incorrect. If 
you know Ben, Jack, and Bill, you should say so; if you do not, you 
should say so. 

Mr. Foster. Of course, I do not know who wrote the telegram or 
who it refers to. 

The Chairman. He is asking you if you know who Ben, Jack, and 
Bill mentioned in the telegram are, 

Mr. Foster. No; I do not. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Foster. I said that in the first place. 

Mr. Dempsey. No ; you did not say that in the first place. 

Mr. Matthews. I ask you. Mr. Foster, if you can identify the 
stamped signature on this document from your past recollection 
[handing a paper to the witness]. Have you ever seen that signature 
before ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes ; I have seen it. 

Mr. Matthews. You identify that as a correct stamped signature? 

Mr. Foster. I have seen a signature of that general character. I 
am not a handwriting expert. 

Mr. Matthews. The signature on these minutes of the Political 
Committee of the Communist Party, dated April 27, 1927, is the sig- 
nature of Jay Lovestone, acting general secretary, and listed as present 
at that particular meeting, amoiiff others, was Mr. Foster. 

Do you have any recollection, Mr. Foster, of that particular occasion 
when a Comintern cablegram was received which read as follows : 

We are of opinion that the plenum of central must be held immediately and 
before departure of delegation. However, the decisions of central plenum are not 
to be considered as final without ratification by Executive Committee of the 
Communist International and shall not be published before such ratification. 
Our decision about composition of delegation as telegraphed to you remains 
in force unchanged. Consequently other comrades than those whom Polburo 
decides upon within the right which was given it in last telegram of Executive 
Committee of the Communist International shall not come. Copies of this 
telegram to all members Polburo. Executive Committee of the Communist 
International, Kusinen. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5375 

You know who Kusinen is? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. He was a member of the secretariat of the E. C. C. I. 
at that time? 

Mr. Foster. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. You have some recollection of this cablegram, do 
you 1101 ( 

Mr. Foster. No; I do not recollect that cablegram. 

Mr. Matthews. You did not go to Moscow in 1927, did you, in the 
summer \ 

Mr. Foster. 1927? I may have gone. I am not certain of dates. 
I was there a number of times. 

Mr. Matthews. This morning you said you did not. 

Mr. Foster. This morning I said T was not sure of dates. I have 
been there a number of times, but I am not sure of the exact dates. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you been to Moscow more or less every year 
since your membership in the party? 

Mr. Foster. No; I have not. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Noav, you think you might have gone in 1927? 

Mi-. Foster. It is possible, but I am not certain. 

Mr. Matthews. Don't you think that perhaps this document bears 
on the face of it its own authenticity, in that one cablegram to Moscow 
suggests that ••Bill," who undoubtedly was yourself, go to Moscow,, 
and the cable was received in reply saying that you should not come to' 
Moscow? Can't you recall the circumstances under which that ex- 
change of cablegrams took place? 

Mr. Foster. I have no recollection of that particular incident. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever see copies of the minutes of the 
political committee '. 

Mr. Foster. Once in a while; not always. 

Mr. Matthews. Were they not mimeographed and distributed to 
the members '. 

Mr. Foster. In general, yes: but sometimes I was on the road and 
did not get them. But often, even in New York, I did not see them. 

Mr. Matthews. Is not this the form in which they were usually 
distributed to members of the political committee [handing a paper 
to the witness j ( 

Mr. Foster. Well, I have seen them in various forms. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you any copies of them ? 

Mr. Foster. No; I have not. 

Mr. Matthews. You have none in your possession? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Do you knoAv Avhere other copies might be? 

Mr. Foster. No ; I could not say. 

Mr. Mattheavs. You are chairman of the party; you knoAv Avhere 
the records are \ 

Mr. Foster. I am, but I have not charge of the archiA 7 es. You will 
have to consult Mr. Browder. 

Mr. M \ttmeavs. Is there any reason that you should be kept ignorant 
of where the archives are? 

Mr. Foster. The only reason is this: That I Avas sick for a long 
period of time and Avas not engaged in the general work of the party. 
My Avork was restricted simply to writing and attending meetings of 



5376 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

the political committee, and on all such questions as this I was not 
taken into consideration. 

Mr. Matthews. This was 5 years before your illness, Mr. Foster. 

Mr. Foster. But you are asking for archives. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes ; but I am also asking about the form in which 
minutes were distributed, and you were not definite as to whether this 
was the form. 

Mr. Foster. I could not certainly identify a document by the form. 

Mr. Matthews. It is several years since you have been back in 
active work? 

Mr. Foster. Especially after several years, I could not identify a 
document by its form. 

Mr. Matthews. Are they ever sent out in printed form ? 

Mr. Foster. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. You never saw a printed copy ? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever seen a typewritten copy ? 

Mr. Foster. Typed ; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And mimeographed copies? 

Mr. Foster. That I would not say. 

Mr. Matthews. You do not know whether you have ever seen 
mimeographed copies ? 

Mr. Foster. I don't know whether they were mimeographed. Our 
political committee was very small. They may have been duplicated, 
that is, several made together, for all I know. 

Mr. Matthews. They may have been duplicated and sent to other 
functionaries of the party, so that other functionaries might know 
what the decisions of the party were ; is that what you mean to say — 
that they were duplicated for that purpose? 

Mr. Foster. No ; I do not know whether they were sent out to other 
members or not. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, this particular document has al- 
ready been introduced in evidence and identified as an authentic 
copy of the minutes of the political committee of the Communist 
Party. 

Mr. Foster, you are acquainted with the publication, The Com- 
munist International, I presume. 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that a copy that you have seen? [Handing a 
pamphlet to the witness.] 

Mr. Foster. It looks like it ; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. This is a copy of the Communist International 
of September 1936. Is this the organ of the executive committee of 
the Communist International? 

Mr. Foster. Well, I don't know how directly it is. It is an organ 
of the Communist International, but how directly an organ of the 
executive committee 

The Chairman (interposing). He asked you if it was an organ 
of the Communist International. 

Mr. Foster. The answer is, I do not know. 

Mr. Dempset. Will the stenographer read the witness' answer in 
which he said that it was, but how directly he did not know? Now 
he says he does not know. 



UN-AM K II ICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5377 

The Chairman. Why do you say at one time that it is an organ 
of the executive committee of the Communist International, and now 

you say you do not know ? 

.Mr. Foster. Because the question is whether or not the executive 
committee of the Communist International would go over every 
article in there and assume responsibility for them, and generally 

Mr. Dempset. That is not the question at all. 

Mr. Foster. I would consider that an official organ. 

The Chairman. You first say it is, and now you say you don't 
know. 

Mr. Dempsey. Let the stenographer read the answer again. 

(The stenographer read as follows;) 

Well, I don't know how directly it is. It is an organ of the Communist 
International, but how directly an organ of the executive committee 

Mr. Foster. That is what I said. 

Mr. Dempsey. It is an organ? 

Mr. Foster. That is exactly what I said. 

Mr. Dempsey. But later on you said that you did not know. 

Air. Foster. I said nothing of the kind. 

The Chairman. Wait a minute. Which is correct? Is it an or- 
gan, or is your answer that you do not know ? 

Mr. Foster. What the stenographer read; that is my answer, and 
that is correct. 

The Chairman. Read the answer again. 

(The stenographer read as follows:) 

Well, I don't know how directly it is. It is an organ of the Communist 
International, but how directly an organ of the executive committee 

Mr. Foster. That is my answer. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you frequently seen copies of the publication, 
Mr. Foster? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You get it regularly? 

Mr. Foster. Quite regularly; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you write for it from time to time ? 

Mr. Foster. I have written for it. 

Mr. Matthew's. Don't you know that on every issue, on the mast- 
head, it says, "Communist International, organ of the executive com- 
mittee of the Communist International?" 

Mr. Foster. I have not noticed it. 

The Chairman. You mean you have been getting it all this time 
and you did not notice that? 

Mr. Foster. No; I did not notice that particularly. I said that it 
is an organ of the Communist International. 

Mr. Matthews. You said an organ of the executive committee of 
the Communist International. 

Air. Foster. How directly it is controlled by the executive com- 
mittee I do not know. That is what I said. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it not a primary characteristic of the Comintern 
and of its constituent bodies that there is such a thing as rigid disci- 
pline, which covers all party publications as well as all party 
members ? 

Air. Foster. No ; there is no rigid discipline in our party. 



5378 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. There is no rigid discipline in the party? 

Mr. Foster. No. Our party discipline is subject to discussion and 
debate, and is arrived at by educational processes. It may be de- 
scribed here and there as a rigid discipline, but essentially it is what 
I say. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster says there is no such thing as rigid 
discipline. I would like to read him "Decisions of Workers Party 
Central Executive Committee,"' dated October 15, 1924. This is from 
the Daily Worker of that date. [Reading :] 

The Fifth Congress has shown that the Communist International is fast 
growing to be one world communist party with a vigorous international disci- 
pline. The stand of the congress toward the anti-disciplinarian tendencies 
of Souvarine and Hoeglund and others will draw the ranks of Communism 
together the world over and will strengthen the Communist International as 
one Communist Party. The C. E. C. of the W. P. declares that rigid discipline,, 
international and national, is absolutely indispensable for the organized advance 
guard of the international proletariat. 

Did you participate in the promulgation of that particular docu- 
ment? [Handing the paper referred to to the witness.] 

Mr. Foster. When was it gotten out ? I don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. In 1924. You were a member of the political 
committee at the time, were you not? 

Mr. Foster. I did, if it was gotten out at that time; but any state- 
ment as to rigid discipline in the Communist Party is always coupled 
up with the conception that the decisions arrived at are subject to 
the widest discussion, and it is only after the decision is taken that 
the discipline enters in. 

The Chairman. Right at that point, is that true with reference 
to the Soviet-Nazi pact? 

Mr. Foster. The Soviet-Nazi pact; I don't know how that was 
handled in the Russian party. I have no information. 

The Chairman. You were not consulted in advance about that ? 

Mr. Foster. Of course not. 

The Chairman. All right. You know Granville Hicks, do you 
not? 

Mr. Foster. I have heard of him. I never met him. 

The Chairman. Have you received information that he has re- 
signed from the Communist Party? 

Mr. Foster. I saw something in the paper about it. Oh, we have 
casualties. 

The Chairman. But he was a member for a long time, was he not? 

Mr. Foster. I don't know. 

The Chairman. A very prominent member of the party? 

Mr. Foster. He was not. 

The Chairman. Was he correct when he said, according to this 
dispatch : 

If they had only admitted their ignorance — 

Speaking of the Soviet alinement with Nazi Germany — 

If they had only admitted their ignorance, the Communist Party of the 
United States would still be intact. But instead they insisted that the Soviet- 
German nonaggression pact was the greatest possible contribution to peace 
and democracy and offered anything that came into their heads as proof. They 
rushed into print with apologies completely devoid of clarity and logic. Only 
one conclusion could be drawn: If the party leaders could not defend the Soviet 
Union intelligently, they would defend it stupidly. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5379 

Was he correct when he said thai \ And, quoting further from 
the United Press dispatch of September 29: 

Mr. Hicks, writing in the magazine, The New Republic, said he had wanted 
id reserve judgment on the pact, but the party had insisted upon making its 
defense an integral part of the party line. Party leaders told him, lie said, 
that if, after deliberating with himself, he could not defend the pact, he would 
have to resign. 

Was he told that by party leaders? 

Mr. Foster. It is possible! I did not tell him, and I did not know 
he was told. That is the first time I ever heard of it. 

The Chairman. Would it lie necessary for him to resign if he dis- 
agreed with the Soviet-Nazi pact ( 

Mr. Foster. I will answer the first part of your question, and this 
secondly. How this pact was arrived at, I have no information 
whatsoever. 

The Chairman. You stated that. 

Mr. Foster. All our party did was to undertake to describe its 
political effects in the world. 

The Chairman. That is right. 

Mr. Foster. And the analysis that our party made at the time was 
correct. 

The Chairman. Right. 

Mr. Foster. And, more than that, it is being pretty generally 
accepted by even conservative circles. 

The Chairman. All right. If a member of the party refused to 
accept it, would he have to resign? 

Mr. Foster. That would depend on who he was. 

The Chairman. Well, take Hicks. 

Mr. Foster. If he was a worker, and he had differences on this ques- 
tion, he would be educated and discussed with, and generally instructed 
in the party interpretation of it, and ten chances to one he would get 
to see 

The Chairman (interposing). But after he had been educated and 
instructed and conferred with, if he still said, "I am not going to agree 
with this pact ; it is wrong," what would you do? 

Mr. Foster. The answer to that question is that so far nobody has 
been expelled from the Communist Party for disagreeing with this 
pact — nobody. 

The Chairman. Some of them have resigned, have they not? 

Mr. Foster. They have resigned. You asked me what would be done. 

The Chairman. You said that they resigned because the leaders told 
them they either had to agree to the pact or resign. 

Mr. Fosi er. I would say, with regard to a man of the prominence of 
Granville Hicks, if he was a member of our party and openly opposed 
the pact, which necessarily carries with it a general opposition to the 
line of the party, internationally and on the peace question, that even- 
1 uallv he would lie expelled if a process of persuasion could not convince 
him otherwise. 

The Chairman. All right : you have answered the question. 

Mr. Dempset. Then, as I understand, the party is controlled by the 
Soviet Government, because they did make the pact. It was not the 
party that made this pact : that is true, is it not? 

Mr. Foster. Xo: it is not true. 

Mr. Dempset. Was it not the Communist Party that made this 
pact? 



5380 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Foster. You said the Communist Party was controlled by 
the Soviet Government, which is ridiculous. 

Mr. Dempset. Who made this pact between Russia and Germany, 
representing Russia? 

Mr. Foster. Do I have to answer such a question ? 

The Chairman. He is asking you a simple question. 

Mr. Foster, It is a silly question, his whole line of questions. 

The Chairman. Let us not have any controversy. 

Mr. Dempsey. I am asking you who made the pact representing 
Russia, with Germany? 

Mr. Foster. If you read the newspapers 

Mr. Dempsey. Can you not answer that question? 

Mr. Foster. Yes; I can answer it; what I see in the newspapers 
is that it was the Soviet Government. 

Mr. Dempsey. You also say that if an American Communist dis- 
agreed with that he would be expelled from his political party. 

Mr. Foster. I did not say anything of the kind. 

Mr. Dempsey. You said that if a man of prominence like Gran- 
ville Hicks did he would be expelled, unless he would see the light. 

Mr. Foster. That is what I said. 

Mr. Dempsey. That is what I am saying. 

Mr. Foster. It is a little different. I said we would very patiently 
explain the line of the party, and the whole pact situation, in con- 
nection with the whole question of the international struggle for 
peace, and any one in our party who would oppose such a funda- 
mental situation as the general international political line, such a 
prominent person as Mr. Granville Hicks would be thrown out. 

The Chairman. Then his statement is correct, that if a member 
of the party thought, after .deliberation that he could not defend 
the pact, he would have to resign? 

Mr. Foster. I do not know how they would apply that. 

The Chairman. That would be the method? 

Mr. Foster. With such a person that would be, that is, such a 
person as Granville Hicks, but not the worker. 

The Chairman. What would be the difference between Granville 
Hicks and a worker on the same question? 

Mr. Foster. Because the workers of the party would show all the 
patience in the world. 

The Chairman. The party would show patience? 

Mr. Foster. Yes; they would show very great patience, and the 
party would work indefinitely with him. 

The Chairman. Suppose, after exercising such patience the worker 
still would say, "No; I want to disapprove of this pact"; then what? 

Mr. Foster. The answer is that we do a large amount of educa- 
tional work with all our workers, but so far we have not found it 
necessary to pass on hypothetical questions. 

The Chairman. You have never had an occasion in which any 
worker disagreed with the party line? 

Mr. Foster. In this particular case? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Foster. So far as I know, there have been no cases that have 
come to our attention. 

The Chairman. But in other matters you have expelled workers 
who disagreed? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5381 

Mr. Foster. That is right; after very extensive efforts to reorient 
them. 

The Chairman. In other words, you have had instances where 
workers have disagreed with the international party line, and after 
you tried to convince them and have failed, then you have expelled 
them ; is that correct \ 

Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

Mi-. Matthews. You are familiar with the facts about what hap- 
pened in the German Center Party in Germany and to the German 
Nationalists under Hitler? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. They were liquidated at that time? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. This is a copy of the Communist International, 
the official organ of the Executive Committee of the Communist Inter- 
national, and I read from the issue of September 1936, at page 1112, as 
follows : 

Every country which concludes a pact with Hitler should remember that its 
people are threatened with the same fate as that which overtook the Social- 
Democrats, the Center Party, and the German Nationalists in fear of Germany's 
home policy. 

Do you think that kind of fate is in store for the Soviet Union ? 

Mr. Foster. I think there are pacts and pacts. 

Mr. Matthews. This is from the publication I referred to, and; 
there was no trouble to distinguish between pacts and pacts in that 
statement. 

Mr. Foster. Yes; but in real political life you distinguish between 
pacts and pacts, and a pact that would be made by Czechoslovakia 
or Poland or Germany is quite a different story than a pact with 
the Soviet Union. 

Mr. Matthews. This says : "Every country that concludes a pact." 
I ask you to read it. 

Mr. Foster. You read it. 

Mr. Matthews. "Every country" 

Mr. Foster. I heard it. 

Mr. Matthews. Does that include the Soviet Union? 

Mr. Foster. They are learning that it has to be included now. 
They did not know that before. They are learning that very 
brightly, after a couple of weeks. 

Mr. Matthews. There is considerable discussion here about how 
various countries have concluded pacts with Germany, and this dis- 
cussion concludes with these words: 

In robber style they share their booty in advance, as did the groups in 
Germany who supported the war in 1914. 

Does that mean that the booty was shared in advance between 
the Soviet Union and Germany with reference to Poland, Latvia, 
Esthonia, and other countries iii eastern Europe? 

Mr. Foster. I would say that no country in the world would be 
pleased about it. 

Mr. Matthews. I ask you if the Communist International, in its 
organ, means to say that the pact made with Germany signifies that 
the booty is to be shared in robber style as a result of that pact? 

Mr. Foster. That atricle is evidently dealing with capitalist coun- 
tries making pacts with Germany against democratic forces. 



5382 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Dempsey. Does not the pact with Russia prove that this organ 
was correct in this statement? Is not that exactly what happened? 

Mr. Foster. By no means, so far as the Soviet Union is concerned. 

Mr. Dempsey. They did not have everything all arranged, as to a 
division of Poland? 

Mr. Foster. You do not know that, and I do not know that, either. 
You are speculating. 

Mr. Matthews. From the same article I read as follows: 

The Hitler government tries to convert all economic treaties with weak conn- 
tries into military political treaties which take a definite place in his criminal 
war plans. 

Would not that cover the Soviet-Nazi pact? 

Mr. Foster. No. The Soviet Union is living in a capitalist world 
and has to deal with these capitalist countries, all of which are more 
or less hostile, and the Soviet Union from the very beginning has 
striven to make pacts with them, economic pacts and nonaggression 
pacts, and these pacts were not included in any such definition. 

What is referred to there is entirely pacts among the capitalist 
countries themselves. 

Mr. Matthews. I will read another extract from this publication 
which refers to the Soviet Union. It says : 

But Hitler fascism is first and foremost pursuing a course aimed at driving 
a wedge between the capitalist countries at present interested in peace and the 
Soviet Union. 

Has not Hitler successfully driven the wedge? 

Mr. Foster. He has not ; the wedge was driven by Mr. Chamberlain 
and Mr. Daladier, and you know that as well as I do. 

Mr. Chamberlain made it impossible for the Soviet Union to coop- 
erate with other countries. Mr. Chamberlain had built up Mr. Hitler 
with a whole series of concessions and surrenders in the hope that he 
could convince Mr. Hitler to direct his Nazi Germany attack against 
the Soviet Union, but nothing could convince Mr. Hitler that this was 
a feasible thing to do, because Mr. Hitler did not believe it should be 
done. 

Mr. Voorhis. I presume you have seen the papers today and you 
have seen about the result of the visit of Ribbentrop to Moscow. 
Do you still feel that the Soviet relationship with the Reich is one 
of attempting to block the progress made by Nazi Germany? 

Mr. Foster. I am sorry ; I did not read those. 

Mr. Voorhis. Even so, do you still think at this moment that the 
relationship of the Soviet Government to Germany and other nations 
of Europe is such as to block the progress and curb the power of Mr. 
Hitler? 

Mr. Foster. I think every serious political figure in the world 
thinks the same thing. 

Mr. Voorhis. I try to be serious. 

Mr. Foster. I did not mean to cast any aspersions on you. 

Mr. Voorhis. You do not need to worry about that. 

The next question is this: Is it not true that over a considerable 
period of time, say up until August of this year, that occasionally 
some writer in some magazine or newspaper would say he believed 
the time would come when Germany and Russia would sign a pact? 

Is it not also true that every time that was even suggested by 
anybody that the Communist press attacked that idea very vigorously 



DN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5383 

and ridiculed it and said such a thing was impossible, and that it 
would not happen. Is not that true? 

The Chairman. You can say whether or not that is true, if you 
know. 

Mr. Foster. This is a major political question that is not to be 
answered "yes" or "no." As to any questions about party policy, 
I will answer all such questions "not"; if I am not allowed to explain 
these questions 1 will answer them "no." 

Mr. Voorhis. I do not want to ask an unfair question, and I will 
divide it. 

The tiist question is this: From time to time, prior to August 
L939, is it not true that occasionally various people suggested that 
possibly in the course of time Germany and Russia would sign a 
pact and come together in some manner. Is not that true? 

Mr. Foster. There have been such statements made. 

Mr. Voorhis. And the second question is: When those statements 
were made prior to August 1939, is it not true that the Communist 
press always replied that such a suggestion was ridiculous and 
beyond the realm of possibility, and that to suggest it was unfair, 
or something like that? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct, and the reason was because in every 
such case that I know of the proposition was presented in the sense 
that there was an affinity between communism and fascism, and that 
they were bound to unite; but so far as I know, not a single writer 
anywhere came forward witli a prediction or analysis of such a pact 
as has been signed by the Soviet Union and the Nazi Government, a 
nonaggression pact, not a single one of them. 

Mr. Voorhis. The next question is this: Is it not true that when 
Hitler came to power and since he has been in power, very large 
numbers of people of affiliated political groups not in agreement with 
him have either been put in concentration camps, or in jails, or some- 
thing of that kind has happened to them? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

Mr. Voorhis. And among those people were members of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct also. 

Mr. Voorhis. How can you justify Mr. Stalin and the Soviet Gov- 
ernment, from your standpoint, in making an agreement with the 
German Government without lifting a single finger on behalf of 
those people who had thought all the time that they were defending 
the Communist cause in Germany? 

Mr. Foster. The policy of the Soviet Government, so far as I am 
able to understand, is not determined by the internal regime in any 
other country. The Soviet Union has agreements with all kinds of 
countries, with the United States, with the Fascist governments, and 
governments of all kinds. It has repeatedly said it was prepared to 
sign nonaggression pacts with every country, with Japan and any 
other count lies, and it has done that for years. 

The Chairman. In other words, you think it is justified? He asked 
you if you thought it was justified. 

Mr. Foster. I do not think that any country in its international 
relations is going to lay down the law to determine when a form of 
government is the best for its diplomatic relations. 

94931— 39— vol. 9 9 



5384 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Voorhis. That has nothing to do with it. I agree that no 
nation in the world should attempt to change the form of government 
of another nation in the world. Each nation has the right to deter- 
mine what they want themselves. That is not my question. 

What I asked you was, from your own standpoint, whether you 
could justify the signing of a treaty or a pact, or whatever you want 
to call it, on the part of Stalin and the Soviet leaders with Germany 
without having them say anything about the fact that the people 
who had been in Germany trying to carry on their battle for the 
leaders of the Soviet Union were dealt with harshly, or anything 
of that sort. Can you justify that action? 

Mr. Foster. Neither you nor I know whether something has been 
said about this, in the first place. 

Secondly, I think the other day reports came that Thaelmann was 
going to be released, and as far as the justification is concerned, I 
will assure you the Communists in Germany are very happy over 
this pact. 

Mr. Voorhis. Do you know, on the other hand, whether the Soviet 
Government was asked not to release many of its political prisoners by 
Germany, under the terms of this agreement ? 
Mr. Foster. I do not know anything about that. 
Mr. Whitley. You testified this morning that you attended a 
session of the enlarged executive committee of the Communist Inter- 
national in Moscow during March and April 1925. 

Mr. Foster. The date 

Mr. Whitley. That is the period you said you were there for some 
time; I am referring to your testimony this morning. 
Mr. Foster. All during March and April. 
Mr. Whitley. That is my understanding. 

Mr. Foster. If it was identified with some particular plan, it was 
probably true. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall whether there was a session of the 
enlarged executive committee in Moscow during the spring of 1925? 
Mr. Foster. That is correct; I remember now, I remember that 
year. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe you also testified that you attended the 
Sixth Congress of the Communist International in Moscow during 
July 1928. 

Mr. Foster. Yes; if that was the month, I attended that congress. 
Mr. Whitley. During the summer; they are usually held in July 
and August, are they not, or during the summer? 
Mr. Foster. I think so, that is my recollection. 
Mr. Whitley. Would you say to the best of your recollection that 
was the time? 

Mr. Foster. I attended that congress. 

Mr. Whitley. And the Congress was held in July of 1928. 
Mr. Foster. Then I was there. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Foster, you are a native-born American, are you 
not? 

Mr. Foster. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it the general practice. Mr. Foster, for Communist 
Party members and officials to travel on illegal passports? 
Mr. Foster. No. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5385 

Mr. Whitley. If that is done, it is not with the knowledge or ap- 
proval of the Communist Party? 
Mr. Foster. No. 
Mr. Whitley. Do you know of any Communist Party functionaries 

%/ »/ %/ 

or members who have traveled on illegal passports? . 

Mr. Foster. Of my own personal knowledge, no. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Charles Kvumbein traveled 
on an illegal passport, for which he was prosecuted? 

Mf. Foster. Yes; I know he went to jail for some passport. I do 
not know whether 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether he committed a crime for 
which he was convicted? 

Mr. Foster. I never spoke to him about the matter. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Albert Wagenknecht ever 
traveled on an illegal passport? 

Mr. Foster. No; I do not. 

Mr. Whitley. Or Jack Stachel ? 

Mr. Foster. No ; I do not know. 

Mr. Whitley. Or Alexander Boris ? 

Mr. Foster. Also no. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know of any Communists or officials who 
have traveled on illegal passports, aside from Mr. Browder, who ad- 
mitted he had? 

Mr. Foster. I would like to decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Whitley. On what ground? 

Mr. Foster. On the ground that it would violate my constitutional 
rights. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, I submit that is a matter that comes 
within the purview of this committee. I further submit that all the 
testimony before this committee is privileged, with the exception of 
its use for the purpose of a perjury prosecution. 

Such an objection is not sustainable, and I do not think it should be 
permitted. 

In other words, all the testimony before this committee is privileged 
and cannot be used for any other purposes except perjury prosecution. 

What the witness means he does not want to answer that question 
for very good reasons. 

The Chairman. What is your objection? 

Mr. Brodsky. My objection is that he is asking about any official 
of the Communist Party, and that includes the present witness, and 
I think the witness is properly advised and that he should not answer 
the question. 

Mr. Whitley. I will ask the question in this way: 

Do you know of any official, with the exception of yourself, who has 
traveled on an illegal passport? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know of any C. P. U. or Comintern agent 
who has obtained United States passports illegally? 

Mr. Foster. I do not. 

Mr. Whitley. To simplify the question and make it specific, have you 
ever traveled on an illegal transport? 

Mr. Foster. I decline to answer that on the same ground. 

Mr. Whitley. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that that is not a proper 
ground. 



5386 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. You decline, on the advice of counsel, to answer 
that on the ground that it will incriminate you? 

Mr. Foster. Upon the ground that it will incriminate me and violate 
my constitutional rights. 

Mr. Whitley. Let me read the section of the statute that applies. 

In other words, the witness would not incriminate himself because it 
is privileged and cannot be used for any other purpose except- for 
prosecution for perjury. 

Mr. Chairman, I will read from title II, section 193, of the United 
States Code, annotated, as follows : 

Sec. 193. Privilege of witnesses. No witness is privileged to refuse to testify 
to any fact, or to produce any paper, respecting which he be examined by either 
House of Congress, or by any committee of either House, upon the ground that 
his testimony to such fact or his production of such paper may tend to disgrace 
him or otherwise render him infamous. 

That is not the section with reference to privilege. But I think that 
section would apply. 

Mr. Brodsky. This is incriminating, not infamous or disgracing. 

The Chairman. Let us pass that while you are looking up that 
section. 

I want to ask you one or two questions and I want some frank an- 
swers to my questions. 

To what extent do you owe any allegiance to Russia, if any? Do 
you feel you have any allegiance whatsoever to Soviet Russia? 

Mr. Foster. Only in the sense that it is a Socialist country, a country 
of the workers, that it represents the new stage of society that is going 
to abolish misery and suffering. 

The Chairman. It represents the kind of country you want? 

Mr. Foster. And such a country naturally has the beginnings of a 
new social order, and I endorse that. 

The Chairman. But it represents the kind of country you would like 
to have in the United States; is that correct? 

Mr. Foster. I am for the establishment of the best possible condi- 
tions under the present 

The Chairman. Does it represent the kind of country you would 
like to have in the United States? 

Mr. Foster. That, Mr. Chairman, is not a question that can be 
answered "yes" or "no." 

The Chairman. You can answer it ? 

Mr. Foster. I can answer it, but not "yes" or "no." 

The Chairman. In the event of war between the United States and 
Soviet Russia, would your allegiance be to the United States or Soviet 
Russia ? 

Why are you conferring with your counsel ? 

Mr. Brodsky. He can confer with counsel. I have the right to tell 
him that it is purely a hypothetical question. I am going to advise 
him that it is a hypothetical question and not within the purview of 
the committee. 

The Chairman. Mr. Browder did not hestitate to answer. Did 
you advise Mr. Browder on that matter? 

Mr. Brodsky. If I did, I would not tell you, or what I advised him. 
That is privileged. 

The Chairman. You are advising him not to answer? 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5387 

Mr. Brodsky. I am not advising him anything on that; I am advis- 
ing him on the law, and I have a righi to do that. 
The Chairman. Do you decline to answer that question % 

Mr. Foster. Well. I say it is a hypothetical question. 

The Chairman. Why would you not answer it '. 

Mr. Foster. On the ground that it i- a hypothetical question. 

The Chairman. If there was war between Russia and the United 
States, where would your allegiance lie? Do you decline to answer 
that question? 

Mr. Foster. I refuse to accept "if" questions as a determining 
factor. I will say this. I am for the defense of the United States. 

The Chairman. I did not ask you that. 

Mr. Foster. I am answering your question. I cannot be put on a 
"yes" or "no" answer to such a question. 

I am for the defense of the United States and the maintenance of 
its national independence within a democratic system, and the develop- 
ment of democratic systems in the world, the establishment of social- 
ism in the United States, and so, insofar as it goes, in a Avar against 
any country, I will not blindly walk into that war, but will examine 
what is involved in the war and decide my personal conduct accord- 

in £ lv : 

If it is an imperialist war against some other country, I will not 

support it. 

The Chairman. In other words, if the United States entered the 
present war. you would not support the United States? 

Air. Foster. Not an imperialist war. 

The Chairman. I say, in the present war that is existing — you know 
there is a war? 

Mr. Foster. I have heard about it. 

The Chairman. If the United States entered the war. would you 
support the United States? 

Air. Foster. If the United States entered this war on an imperialist 
basis. I would not support it. 

The Chairman. In other words, if the United States entered this 
war as an allv of France and England, vou would not support the 
United States? 

Mr. Foster. Under the present set-up I would say that is an im- 
perialist war. and the workers have no interest in it. and I would 
speak against it. 

The Chairman. You would not support the United States? 

Mr. Foster. Not in such a war. 

The Chairman. Do you regard it as a paramount duty of a Com- 
munist to defend the Soviet Union? 

Mr. Foster. It depends on what you mean by defend. 

The Chairman. Is not that the slogan of the party? 

Mr. Foster. There are many ways to defend. 

The Chairman. You have heard that stated, that the paramount 
duty is to defend the fatherland, the Soviet Union, have you not? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is that correct \ 

Mr. Foster. That is correct, but it depends on what you mean by 
defend. 

The Chairman. What did you mean by that when you used it? 



5388 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Foster. We use the term "defend" for many explanations, 
explanations of policy. 

The Chairman. All right, Dr. Matthews, you may proceed. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, the witness declines to answer any 
questions as to whether he has used illegal passports in the course 
of my inquiries of him. [Beading from title 28, sec. 634, United 
States Code :] 

TESTIMONY OF WITNESSES BEFORE CONGRESS 

No testimony given by a witness before either House or before any com- 
mittee of either House of Congress shall be used as evidence in any criminal 
proceeding against him in any court except in prosecution for perjury com- 
mitted in giving such testimony. 

Now I submit that the objection is not proper because he will not 
incriminate himself. Any testimony he gives here cannot be used. 

Mr. Brodsky. May I state that I read with considerable interest 
the statement of the chairman of this committee sent down to the 
district. 

Mr. Whitley. I am not talking about that. 

Mr. Brodsky. But I am giving you my answer to show that this 
very committee, despite what counsel suggests, has urged the Depart- 
ment of Justice to prosecute Mr. Browder on a statement given to 
the committee, and I do not see how that jibes with what has just 
been read. 

Secondly, I do not think any statute can take away the constitu- 
tional right which guarantees to every citizen protection against 
self-incrimination. 

Those are my points and upon that I advised my client that he 
does not have to commit himself. 

Mr. Whitley. In regard to that, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Foster has 
admitted that during March and April of 1925 he was in Moscow at- 
tending the enlarged Executive Committee of the Communist Inter- 
national. 

The records of the Passport Division of the State Department show 
that during March and April of 1925 Mr. Foster did not have in his 
possession an American passport, at least, if he had such passport 
it was not under his own name, which would constitute an illegal 
passport. 

As a matter of fact, during that particular period Foster did not 
have a passport from March 16, 1922, until October 3, 1925, which 
would come within the months or periods that he has admitted that 
he was in Moscow. 

I would like to ask Mr. Foster how he got to Moscow as an 
American citizen without an American passport. 

Mr. Foster. The same answer. 

Mr. Whitley. The same answer? 

Mr. Foster. The same answer. 

The Chairman. Let us keep the record, straight. You declined to 
answer on the ground that it would incriminate you? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Brodsky. On the advice of counsel. 

The Chairman. On advice of counsel? 

Mr. Brodsky. Yes; that is important because it takes away the 
willfulness. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5389 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Brodsky has testified that during July of 
1928 he attended the Sixth World Congress of the Communist Inter- 
national in Moscow. 

The records of the Passport Division of the State Department 
reflect that during that period Mr. Foster did not have an American 
passport in his possession, or at least, if he did have such passport 
it was not issued to him under his own name which would mean 
it was illegal. 

I would like to ask how he got to Moscow for the Sixth Congress 
during July of 1928 without an American passport. 

Mr. Brodsky. The same answer. 

Mr. Foster. The same answer, on advice of counsel. 

The Chairman. The witness declines to answer on advice of coun- 
sel that it would tend to incriminate him. 

Mr. Whitley. But you do say, Mr. Foster, do you not, that it was 
the general practice of the Communist Party members to travel on 
illegal passports? 

Mr. Foster. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. But you won't answer questions about your own 
activities because you say it might incriminate you ? 

The Chairmax. All right, Mr. Matthews. 

Mr. Mai thews. Mr. Foster, I wish to read to you a statement. 

Mr. Voorhis. I wonder if I could ask my questions now? 

Air. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Foster, do you feel sure that the conditions of 
the life of the people in Soviet Russia have been improved as you 
would like to see them? 

Mr. Foster. Yes; in fact I know they have been improved. I 
have seen them from visits from time to time. 

Mr. Voorhis. Do you feel that there have been most serious and 
important sacrifices of ordinary human liberty which have been 
made by all the people of the Soviet Union ? 

Mr. Foster. I do not think they have made sacrifices of human 
liberty. 

Mr. Voorhis. That is your understanding? 

Mr. Foster. By no means. 

Mr. Voorhis. Do the people under existing conditions have inde- 
pendent political judgment or opinions in the Soviet Union? 

Mr. Foster. Of course. 

Mi-. Voorhis. What would happen if an opposition party were 
organized against the present regime in Russia? 

Mr. Foster. An opposition party? 

Mr. Voorhis. Yes. 

Mr. Foster. An opposition party in the Soviet Union could only 
come up on the basis of a representation of some class. 

Mr. Voorhis. And therefore would not 

Mr. Foster (continuing). And would evidently be a party repre- 
senting the big capitalists or landlords. And as such the workers 
would not tolerate it. 

Mr. Voorhis. Would not tolerate it? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mi-. Voorhis. And would therefore remove it by such means as 
necessary ? 



5390 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Foster. But political oppositions — there have been very many 
of them in the existence of the Soviet ; many dozens of them. 

Mr. Voorhis. What has been the outcome of their efforts? 

Mr. Foster. Well, in general 

Mr. Voorhis (interposing) . What has happened to the leaders in 
those efforts? 

Mr. Foster. The general outcome: The position of these leaders, 
in these movements, is that for many years, opposition flares up, on 
almost every question that came up of basic importance in the history 
of the Soviet- 
Mr. Voorhis. Are you not assuming. Mr. Foster, that everybody 
except capitalists will necessarily agree exactly with the policy pur- 
sued by the Communist Party of Russia ( 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mr. Voorhis. It seems to me that is what yon said would happen 
to those who were opposed to them. 

Mr. Foster. I did not say that. I said opposition parties. 

Mr. Voorhis. Opposition parties? 

Mr. Foster. I said many opposition movements, dozens of them, 
have occurred. 

Mr. Voorhis. It seems to me the preservation of human liberty 
is an important thing, not the only thing, but at least a very impor- 
tant thing, and where it is destroyed something important is gone. 

Mr. Foster. The Russian people, as I have been able to understand 
the situation on a number of visits, enjoy incalculably more liberties 
now than they ever did in their history and even have established 
fundamental liberties that we haven't got in the United States. 

Mr. Voorhis. Of course, there is considerable difference of opinion. 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. I wish to read you a dialog, Mr. Foster [reading] : 

The Chairman. Now. if I understand you the workers in this country look 
upon the Soviet Union as their country; is that right? 

Mr. Foster. The more advanced workers do. 

The Chairman. Look upon the Soviet Union as their country? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

The Chairman. They look upon the Soviet flag as their ling? 

Mr. Foster. The workers of this country and the workers of every country 
have only one flag and that is the "red" flag. That is the flag of the proletarian 
revolution: it was also, incidentally, the flag of the American Revolution in 
the earlier stages. The red flag has heen the flag of revolution for many 
years before the Russian revolution. 

The Chairman. Well, the workers of this country consider, then, the Soviet 
Government to he their country. Do they also consider the "red" flag to be 
their flag? 

Mr. Foster. I have answered quite clearly. 

The Chairman. Do you owe allegiance to the American flag: docs the Com- 
munist Party owe allegiance to the American flag? 

Mr. Foster. The workers, the revolutionary workers, in all the capitalist 
countries are an oppressed class who are held in subjection by their respective 
capitalist governments and their attitude toward these governments is the 
abolition of these governments and the establishment of Soviet governments. 

The Chairman. Well, they do not claim any allegiance, then, to the American 
flag in this country? 

Mr. Foster. That is, you mean the support of capitalism in America : no. 

The Chairman. I mean if they had to choose between the "red" flag and the 
American flag, I take it from you that you would choose the "red" flag: is that 
correct? 

Mr. Foster. I have stated my answer. 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5391 

The Chairman. Could not you answer a little more definitely and specifically 
whether they owe any allegiance to the American flag? 

Mr. FOSTER. 1 have stated my answer. 

The Chairman. 1 do not want to force you to answer if it emharrasses you, 
.Mr. Foster. 

Mr. Foster. It does not embarrass me at all. I stated very clearly the red 
flag is the flag of the revolutionary class, and we are part of the revolutionary 
class. 

The Chairman. I understood that. 

Mr. FOSTER. And all capitalist flags are flags of the capitalist class, and we owe 
no allegiance to them. 

The Chairman. Well, that answers the question. 

Did you give that testimony in response to questions of the chairman 
of a previous committee of the House of ^Representatives ? 

Air. Foster. Of the Fish committee. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you give the testimony? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster, will you please identify this pamphlet 
[handing pamphlet to witness]. You identify that? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. This is a pamphlet entitled "Acceptance Speeches, 
William Z. Foster. Candidate for President, and Benjamin Gitlow, 
Candidate for Vice President, of the Workers (Communist) Party, 
19:^. "" 

Mr. Chairman, the witness 1ms identified this acceptance speech, and 
I request that it be incorporated in the record. It is rather too long to 
read at this time. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

(The pamphlet entitled ''Acceptance Speeches, William Z. Foster 
and Benjamin Gitlow," was marked "Exhibit No. A.") 

Acceptance Speeches of Wiixiam Z. Foster, Candidate for President, and 
Benjamin Gitlow. Candidate fob Vice President of the Workers (Com- 
munist) Party 

(National Election Campaign Committee Workers (Communist) Party, 1928) 

foreword 

The Acceptance Speeches were delivered at the National Nominating Convem 
tion of the Workers (Communist) Party of America held on May 25-27, 1928, 
in New York City. 296 regular delegates and 150 fraternal delegates, coming from 
39 states and the District of Columbia, attended this important working-class 
gathering. The convention was a true cross-section of the exploited and op- 
pressed masses of this country. Native-horn and foreign-born white workers, 
representatives of the Negro race, exploited farmers, and working women, vet- 
erans of the class struggle, delegates of the youth, and representatives of the 
colonies and semi-colonies of American imperialism joined in a powerful demon- 
stration against their common enemy — capitalism. 

The National Convention nominated Comrade William Z. Foster for President 
and Comrade Benjamin Gitlow for Vice-President. Our nominees are fighters 
in the struggle for the liberation of the working class and are not servants of 
Wall Street as are the nominees of the Republican and Democratic parties. 
The advocates of capitalism — and Eoremosl among them are the corrupt bu- 
reaucracy of the American Federation of Labor and the renegade leadership of 
the Socialist Party — ai - e spokesmen of class collaboration between the working 
class and the master class. 

The National Convention adopted a platform which exposes the whole fraud- 
ulence of all the schemes of class collaboration, which serve only one purpose: 
to perpetuate the rule of capitalism, the wage slavery of the workers, the 
oppression of the Negro, the exploitation of the working fanners, and the sub- 
jugation of the colonial peoples. The keynote of our platform is struggle — re- 



5392 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

lentless, uncompromising, determined class struggle against the capitalist world. 
The Workers (Communist) Party presents its platform as a rallying base for all 
the exploited and oppressed, as the organizing and mobilizing instrument for all 
struggles of the toiling masses. 

We call upon all workers, exploited farmers, and Negroes to endorse our 
platform — "The Platform of the Class Struggle" and our candidates! Vote for 
and join the Communist Party ! 

Report of the Committee on Nominations 

By Robert Minor, Chairman 

Comrades : Your committee on nominations has reached a unanimous recom- 
mendation. The committee is quite conscious of the fact that the nominations 
of candidates to bear the red flag of working-class revolution, the flag of Com- 
munism, in a national campaign, is a very serious one. The purpose of the 
Communist Party in making nominations is utterly different from the purpose 
of the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, or the so-called Socialist 
Party in choosing standard-bearers. We are not choosing men or women for 
the purpose of administering in a smooth manner the machinery of the capital- 
ist state. In choosing the representatives of our Party to go before the masses 
we are choosing men or women who will mobilize the working class against 
the capitalist state, against the ruling class, for the overthrow of the present 
form of society and for the establishment of a revolutionary state— purposes 
utterly antagonistic to the purposes for which the American democracy, so- 
called, was formed. 

The men and women who go out as our representatives must go out as fight- 
ing men to mobilize the workers to support the strike of the miners, to support 
the strike of the textile workers, to carry on a vigorous drive against the labor 
bureaucracy and against the bosses, for the saving and for the building of 
our trade-union movement in connection with our election campaign. 

These who represent us as candidates must go out as organizers of the work- 
ing class to struggle for all demands of the workers of today and tomorrow, 
and at the same time to hold before them the aim of our revolutionary working- 
class movement, the ultimate emancipation of our class. 

I recall, comrades, an incident of the time when we were about to found 
our Workers Party, when our Communist Party was illegalized by the capitalist 
state, suppressed into secret existence. A little group of us as delegates of our 
Party to the Communist International at the Third Congress in Moscow, went 
at midnight after a session of the congress to visit and discuss our plans with 
Comrade Lenin. 

One of the comrades who was still somewhat afflicted with some extreme 
leftist views asked Comrade Lenin whether or not our Party should put into 
the field at an election campaign any candidates for executive and adminis- 
trative offices. (The view of that comrade was that we should only put up 
candidates for legislative positions.) 

Comrade Lenin replied to us that in his opinion the action of Eichorn in 
the revolutionary crisis in Germany, in taking the post of chief of police of the 
city of Berlin and utilizing that post to pass out arms to the workers of 
Berlin was the answer to our problem. 

We are putting up candidates to mobilize the workers for the class struggle. 
In reality it is not individuals, but our Party itself, which is the candidate. 
At the same time we must choose standard bearers who are tried and true 
leaders of our class, men and women who symbolize the revolutionary tradi- 
tions, who are tested and proven leaders of our revolutionary Communist 
Party, the Party without whose leadership success is impossible for the work- 
ing class. Those candidates go into the field as marshals, but at the same 
time under the discipline of the Party and subject to the iron command to 
carry out the will and the program of our Party. 

We of the committee, without any dissenting vote or dissenting thought, 
without the proposal of any other names, have been able to reach a conclusion, 
in favor of a candidate for president of the United States and another for 
vice president. 

We recommend for the presidential candidate a man whose name is associated 
first of all in the minds of the workers with that great struggle of the working 
class, the steel strike of some years ago. In this man we recommend, are em- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5393 

bodied the best traditions of the old days of the Socialist Party when we all — 
the older ones among us here— were in it; embodies the best traditions of the 
Industrial Workers of the World when that too was a revolutionary organiza- 
tion. He embodies thai great portion which used to be, more than it is now, 
inside of the American Federation of Labor, but which the bureaucrats are 
trying to crush out of it — the revolutionary workers within the American 
federation of Labor; the candidate we propose is a pioneer of the Communist 
movement who was himself in the old underground movement of our Com- 
munist Party in the days when we were illegalized; a man whom the capitalist 
class tried to imprison in Michigan, a member of the Executive Committee of 
the Communist International; a man whose name strikes terror and fear and 
hatred into the hearts of the capitalist class. 

For vice president we have to recommend a veteran of the trade-union 
struggle in the largest city of the most brutal capitalism of the world. We have 
to recommend a fighter who fought for revolutionary principles in the Socialist 
Party, in the days when John Reed and Charles E. Ruthenberg and he led the 
revolutionary fight within that party; a man who represents our traditions; a 
man who was a founder of the left wing in the Socialist Party, a founder of 
the Communist Party, a founder of the American section of the Communist 
International, who has spent long years of prison and suffering in behalf of 
our class emancipation. 

Your committee nominates for president and vice president of the United 
Stales. William Z. Foster and Benjamin Gitlow. 

f Tremendous Applause.] 

A(ti:i'tam k Speech of William Z. Foster, Candidate For President 

Comrades: It is a very great honor offered me, when the Workers (Com- 
munist) Party asks me to be one of its standard-bearers in the national presi- 
dential elections. In accepting the nomination for president, I do it with full 
appreciation of this honor. By the fact that it is deemed I can be of service to 
the Party in such a role. I feel that I am a thousand times repaid for such 
efforts as I may have put forth in the course of my experience in the struggles 
of the workers. All I can say is that it will be my best ambition in the coming 
campaign, ami in the years of work before me in the class struggle, to be 
worthy of this great honor conferred upon me by our Party. 

A WONDERFUL CONVENTION 

Comrades, as we live through this wonderful convention, we must realize 
the great progress our Party has made. What wonderful enthusiasm, what a 
splendid lighting spirit! Here we have a fine delegation of militants in the 
class struggle, from almost all the states, from all the important industries. 
This shows the grip our Party is getting amongst the very best elements in the 
American proletariat. This convention marks a new stage in the growth of our 
Party. 

In the recent elections in Germany, in France, and in Poland, the Communist 
Parties showed greatly increased strength, and I am certain that our Party 
in the coining elections will also register an important increase in strength over 
the showing we made in the national elections of 1924. [Applause.] 

PARTY PLATS LEADING ROLE 

Since 1924 our Party has had much mass experience. We have played a 
leading role in all the important struggles of the American working class, in 
the mining, shoe, needle, textile, and other industries. Every effort of the 
workers in the direction of a labor party has found us in the forefront. We 
have led the fight against imperialism. During these struggles, we have created 
around our Party a large body of sympathizers, and in the coming election 
period one of our principal tasks must be to mobilize these workers politically 
in favor of our platform, and behind our candidates. It is not enough that 
these workers follow us in strikes, and general wage movements. We must 
also teach them to actively accept the leadership of the Workers (Communist) 
Party in its broad political struggles. We must draw the workers into this 
general political campaign, and induce them to vote for our candidates. We 
must draw them into membership in the Workers (Communist) Party. These 
are among the basic tasks confronting us in the present election campaign. 



5394 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

OUR REVOLUTIONARY PURPOSE 

We are not going into the national election campaign solely for the purpose of 
getting votes. It is, of course, important that we register the extent of our 
Party's support in the working class by mobilizing the maximum number to vote 
for our candidates. It is also important, should the possibility present itself in 
any of the state or local elections, to elect Communist candidates, so that they 
can utilize the legislative bodies as a forum wherefrom to acquaint the workers 
with the iniquities of capitalism and the necessity of the Communist program. 
But we also have other, bigger objectives in the national election campaign. Our 
aim must be to arouse the class-consciousness of the masses in a political sense 
and to mobilize them for struggle on all fronts. Vote getting is only one aspect of 
this general mobilization of the workers. 

Our Party, different from the Socialist Party, creates no illusions amongst the 
workers that they can vote their way to emancipation, that they can capture the 
ready-made machinery of the state and utilize it for the emancipation of the 
working class. On the contrary, we must utilize this campaign to carry on a 
widespread and energetic propaganda to teach the workers that the capitalist 
class would never allow the working class peacefully to take control of the state. 
That is their strong right arm, and they will fight violently to the end to retain it. 
The working class must shatter the capitalist state. It must build a new state, a 
new government, a workers' and farmers' government, the Soviet Government of 
the United States. [Applause.] 

No Communis!, no matter how many votes he should secure in a national elec- 
tion, could, even if he would, become president of the present government. When 
a Communist heads a government in the United States — and that day will come 
just as surely as the sun rises [applause] — that government will not be a capi- 
talistic government but a Soviet government, and behind this government will 
stand the Red Army to enforce the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. [Applause. ] 

AS TO IMMEDIATE DEMANDS 

Our convention has just adopted an election platform. This platform outlines 
a whole series of immediate measures, advocated by us to relieve unemployment, 
low wages, long hours, discrimination against the foreign-born, women, youth, 
Negroes, etc. I shall not, in the brief time at my disposal, review these demands. 
What I wish to say about them now is that we must lay great stress on these 
demands during the campaign. It is not enough that we simply put forward our 
revolutionary slogans. We must also organize and lead the workers in their 
everyday struggles against the most acute evils under capitalism. Our platform 
demands point the way to do this. 

But, on the other hand, we must not put forth our immediate demands in the 
sense that they of themselves make for the emancipation of the working class. 
In all our agitation around these demands we must emphasize the absolute 
necessity for the proletarian revolution. Our strategy is to utilize these imme- 
diate demands to educate and organize the masses in preparation for the final 
revolutionary struggle, which will abolish capitalism altogether. Reliance upon 
immediate demands would lead us merely to reformism. Our Party is a revolu- 
tionary Party. It aims not simply to ease conditions a bit under capitalism 
for the workers but to abolish capitalism altogether. [Applause.] 

Permanent improvement in the conditions of the workers under capitalism 
is impossible. The inevitable crises, born of the contradictions in the capitalist 
system of production and distribution, deepening and sharpening as world 
capitalism goes into its period of decline, and marked by chronic unemployment 
and organized attacks on the workers' living standards by the employers and 
the state, sweep away like chaff such reforms as may have been secured by 
the workers during the periods of capitalism's upward swing. The only way 
the workers can permanently better their conditions is by wiping out capitalism 
altogether and by laying the basis of a socialist system in which the capitalist 
principle of the exploitation of the great masses of producers for the benefit 
of a relatively few owners of the industries shall be unknown and where the 
workers will * receive the full social value of what they produce. All this, 
and the whys and wherefores of it we must tell the workers in our election 
campaign. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5395 

REFORMISM FUTXTJE 

The working class of the world has had a vast experience with reformism 
and it all goes to show the utter futility of such reformism. All the conquests, 
all the little improvements in wages, hours, and working conditions that were 
scared by the reformist policies and organizations in Germany, England, 
France, etc., during the upward period of development of capitalism in these 
countries, in the pre-war days, were swept away with one great sweep in the 
breakdown and decline of European capitalism in the post-war period. About 
all that is left now of that period is a reactionary leadership, which after 
betraying the workers in the world war and defeating their revolutionary 
efforts just following the war, remains fastened upon the organizations of the 
workers and which now stands as one of the principal ohstacles in the way 
of the emancipation of the working class. Although we advocate actively our 
immediate demands, we must always do it in this sense: that the workers 
should fight and struggle for these demands in the present period but that 
they must educate and organize themselves to put into effect eventually the 
full Communist program — the abolishment of the capitalist system itself and 
the establishment of a Workers' and Farmers' Government. 

On the other hand — if limiting ourselves simply to a program of immediate 
demands would lose us in the swamp of reformism, failure to put forward 
such demands would condemn us to sectarianism. It would cut us off from 
the masses. It would make it impossible for us to participate in the actual 
everyday struggles of the workers and thus to educate, organize, and lead 
them. The Workers (Communist) Party is a Leninist, Marxist Party. It 
knows how to participate in the daily struggles of the workers, even for the 
smallest demands, and it knows how to utilize all these struggles to develop 
class-consciousness, organization and revolutionary leadership among the masses 
and thus to begin their mobilization for the eventual overthrow of capitalism. 

OUR MANY TASKS 

The Workers (Communist) Party does not go into this campaign simply for 
the purpose of getting votes or merely to propagate our general Communist 
program. We enter the election campaign to further all our Party tasks. 
mobilizing the workers for struggle on every front. And in this period of 
militant American imperialism, of crisis in the labor movement, of widespread 
depression in industry, we have many and great tasks. History does not ask 
us whether we are a big party or a little party when it thrusts these tasks 
upon us. Small though our Party may be at the present time it must go 
forward bravely and energetically to the accomplishment of these tasks, how- 
ever great they may be. I shall touch briefly upon some of the more important 
of these problems. 

THE WAR DANGER 

< »ne of our principal tasks in the coming election campaign is to arouse the 
workers to the danger of a new world war. Never was such a war more immi- 
nent. This danger manifests itself from various directions. The developing 
attack of the great imperialist powers upon the Soviet Union; the growing 
rivalries between the various imperialistic powers for markets and world domi- 
nation, especially between the United States and Great Britain: the attacks 
on the colonial and semicolonial countries, as, for instance, on China and 
Nicaragua at the present time (from the audience: "and Haiti"), yes; and 
Haiti too. and many other countries — all these tendencies, all these develop- 
ments are pregnant with the danger of a fresh world war. A world war may 
start from any of these, and when it does come, the previous war will seem 
in comparison a pink-tea affair. 

Today we confront unprecedented preparations for war, armaments without 
parallel. Did you read in the papers, just a day or two ago, about the gas 
explosion in Hamburg, when a supply of gas was accidentally released, poison- 
ous enough to have wiped out the entire people of Hamburg? Only a fortunate 
combination of circumstances prevented the gas from going, with frightful 
effects, into the most densely populated sections of the city. The militarist pro- 
gram that the world imperialists are developing provides for gases, arma- 



5396 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

merits, instruments of war, more deadly and upon a more gigantic scale than 
ever before in the history of the world. And the whole thing is developing 
towards a climax in the sharpening antagonisms that I have just briefly 
indicated. 

IMPERIALIST ARMAMENTS 

All this great massing of armaments, these gigantic preparations for war, are 
being carried out under a marvelous camouflage of peace. Since the Versailles 
Treaty was signed we have been treated to an almost constant series of "peace" 
conferences, "disarmament" conferences, "anti-war" conferences, a whole stream 
of them. Yet at the end of all these years the armaments are greater than 
ever before in history and the war danger grows more and more imminent. 
The latest pseudo-peace maneuver for covering up the preparations for war by 
the imperialists originates nowhere else than in the United States. What I 
refer to is the so-called Kellogg proposal to outlaw war. 

It is just a few months ago since the Soviet Union came forward with a 
proposition to abolish armaments all over the world. This created a great 
sensation. Among the masses of workers of the world the feeling grew that 
only the Soviet Union was serious in its proposals for world peace. With their 
militaristic program thus exposed in its nakedness, the capitalists had to do 
something to counteract the Soviet Union's proposition. The first attempted 
answer to the Soviet Union was that made by the British delegation at the 
conference where the disarmament proposal was made. And what did the 
British delegation say in substance? It was an answer of old-time diplomacy, 
an answer of the naked iron fist. That Great Britain does not agree with the 
Soviet Union's proposals for world peace; that she declares world peace to be 
a chimera, that the proposals for disarmament are impossible, and that she 
intends to maintain her armies and navies. 

RACE FOR ARMAMENTS 

This was the answer of Great Britain. But the United States, the leading 
imperialist country in the world, has a much more skillful answer to the Soviet 
Union than that. What does America say? She says through the mouth of 
Kellogg, "Let us outlaw war; let us come together and agree that there shall 
be no more war." And the leading capitalist countries of the world are accept- 
ing this hypocritical proposal of America. What does it all mean? It means 
simply that under the slogan of "outlawing war," the world imperialists will 
continue their race for building up their armaments and preparations for world 
war. This deceitful, hypocritical slogan is thrown out to blind the eyes of the 
masses, to make them think that the capitalists are really trying to stop war. 
The United States, highly expert in fooling the masses, has put out some clever 
slogans for covering up its war aims. The Kellogg proposal to "outlaw war," 
which is being endorsed by reformists all over the world, including the socialist 
parties, is perhaps the most skillful scheme ever set afloat since the days of 
Wilson's famous slogan : that the Allies were fighting the world war "to make 
the world safe for democracy." 

To expose the real meaning of Kellogg's proposition, to fight against the vast 
war plans of the United States, to arouse the American working class against 
the militaristic program of American imperialism, to mobilize the workers 
against the war in Nicaragua, against the whole program of imperialist aggres- 
sion in Latin America, in China, and the militarization of the workers in this 
country — these are basic tasks of our Workers (Communist) Party, and they 
must stand in the very forefront of our election campaign. 

DEFEND THE SOVIET "UNION 

Especially in this connection must we undertake to mobilize the masses of 
workers in defense of the Soviet Union. Today the Soviet Union advances with 
giant strides. It is making tremendous progress in building its industries, in 
establishing a socialist commonwealth in the face of the most tremendous diffi- 
culties. The very existence of the Soviet Union is a menace to the capitalist 
order the world over. It is an inspiration to the workers of the world, a living 
proof of the feasibility of the proletarian revolution. The capitalists of every 
country are determined to destroy the Soviet Union at all costs. They want to 
wreck its working-class government and seize its great natural resources. And 
now, under the leadership of Great Britain and with the most active participa- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5397 

tion by the United States, slowly, systematically they proceed with their 
mobilization of forces. They are awaiting the opportune time to strike at the 

Soviet Union with all their massed power. 

Fundamental to the success of their attack on the Soviet Union will be to 
keep the world's workers demoralized and inactive while the counter-revolution- 
ary struggels are being carried on. The capitalists depend on the social- 
democratic parties of the world, who identify the workers' interests with those of 
their respective capitalist classes, to help them cut the Soviet Union to pieces. 
In the revolutionary upheavals in the years following the world war, it was 
the socialist parties that beat back the rising tide of proletarian revolt and 
preserved the capitalist system in Europe. The capitalists believe that the 
socialists will once more be able to deliver a master betrayal of the revolution, 
that they can hold hack the working masses while the capitalists deliver their 
carefully prepared attack against the Soviet Union. 

WAR OX CAPrrALISM 

But this time the imperialists are reckoning without their host. No longer 
have the social-democratic parties their former undisputed leadership of the 
working class. In the last few years, in all the important countries, revolution- 
ary Communist parties have been built up. They have sunk their roots deep 
among the masses. Under the leadership of the Communist International they 
are mobilizing their forces. The power of this great movement constantly 
grows. When the international capitalist class, when the imperialists of the 
world, assisted by their social-democratic lackeys, deem the time opportune and 
strike at the Soviet Union the blow they are now preparing, they will wake up 
to a crushing defeat. When that war begins, the Communist International and 
the millions of workers throughout Europe and other countries that follow its 
lead will not simply adopt a defensive policy, they will not merely seek to stop 
their governments from attacking the Soviet Union. On the contrary, they will 
put into effect the great Leninist strategy. They will turn the imperialist war 
against the Soviet Union into a civil war of the workers against capitalism. 
They will destroy the capitalist order and begin the building of the proletarian 
society. [Applause.] 

ECONOMIC DEPRESSION — EMPLOYEES' OFFENSIVE 

Comrades, the United States is now in the midst of an industrial depression. 
American imperialism, embarrassed with the enormous masses of commodities 
produced by millions of superspeeded workers, is not able to dispose of these 
products. The workers, paid only a fraction of what they produce, cannot buy 
them back. The employers cannot sell them abroad. Many industries have been 
closed down. At least four million workers are unemployed at the present time. 
American capitalism, with all its power, and with all the boasts of its defenders 
that it has been found the formula of continuous prosperity, shows that it, 
too, is possessed of the weaknesses, and contradictions of capitalism in other 
countries. It also is subject to crisis. Many signs indicate that we are on the 
eve of a serious industrial depression. 

The employers, quick to take advantage of the situation, are making a great 
drive against the living and working standards and organizations of the workers. 
Tiny aim at developing a working class, docile, speeded-up, and a tool in their 
schemes of world imperialism. Wage cuts have been widespread in the in- 
dustries, especially among the armies of unorganized, unskilled workers. For 
the moment the organized skilled workers have mostly escaped the wage cuts, 
but their turn will come later. The employers forge ahead with their 
open-shop drive. Wherever the workers resist they are confronted with an 
unprecedented use of the government against them, injunctions, troops, 
u' ui mien, etc. 

LABOR IN FIGHTING MOOD 

The workers are becoming increasingly in a fighting mood; especially is 
this true of the great masses of semi-skilled and unskilled workers in the 
basic industries who have suffered most from wage cuts, speed-up, and un- 
employment. 

The strike of New Bedford amongst the textile workers, the Haverhill shoe 
strike of a few months ago, the Oshawa strike among the automobile workers, 
indicate their growing militancy. 



5398 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

GENERAL, MOTORS STRIKE 

Perhaps most of you have not heard of the Oshawa strike of some four 
thousand workers of the General Motors Corporation in Canada. This strike, 
although a small one, was very significant and an indicator of conditions pre- 
vailing widespread in American industry at the present time. The auto- 
mohile workers for years were among the best paid workers in the United 
States. But recently their wages have been repeatedly cut, they have been 
speeded up enormously ; unemployment has borne down upon them ; in short, 
their former relatively favorable conditions have been taken from them to 
such an extent that a growing spirit of resistance is spreading among them, 
in Canada as well as in the United States. The strike of the Oshawa workers 
is a signal of the growing discontent among the great masses of automobile 
workers. The automobile industry has been held up, not only in this eountr.v 
but all over the world, as a most decisive achievement of American capitalism; 
as the industry in which American capitalism, with a formula of mass pro- 
duction and high wages, had laid the basis for a contended working class. 
Yet we see that under the weight of wage cuts, speed-up. unemployment, and 
general worsened conditions the privileged automobile workers are forced 
down to such a position that sentiment for organization and struggle is rapidly 
developing among them. 

And what is true of the automobile workers is becoming the case in the 
various other basic industries. There the workers have been confronting 
wage cuts and similar conditions. A fighting mood develops among them. 
Undoubtedly they will wage many important struggles in the near future. 

THE CRISIS IN THE LAROR MOVEMENT 

In this situation the reactionary trade-union leaders have proved them- 
selves absolutely incapable of organizing and leading the masses. They refuse 
to fight the bosses. Their aim is to become the industrial drivers of the bosses, 
to speed up the workers. Their aim is to company-unionize the trade unions 
of the United States, and to become the personnel managers of the employers. 
Under the leadership of this reactionary bureaucracy the trade-union move- 
ment of the United States, built by seventy years of bitter struggles by the 
workers, is being gradually destroyed. 

Now it is not too much to say that under the combined efforts of the em- 
ployers' offensive and the leaders' treachery, the American trade-union move- 
ment is in a death crisis. It is in danger of being either wiped out completely 
or so deeply degenerated in the direction of company unionism as to be of no 
value to the workers. Loss of members, loss of militancy, loss of control in 
strategic, industries, restriction of the unions to skilled workers — this is the 
experience of the American trade-union movement. With its antiquated 
structure, craft policies and reactionary leaders, the trade-union movement is 
unable to stand in the face of the great open-shop attack by trustified capital. 
The craft-union movement, hopelessly antiquated, is slated for destruction. 

REACTIONARY LABOR LEADERS 

As the trade-union movement goes more deeply into the crisis we find that the 
trade-union leaders turn more and more to the right. The latest example of this 
policy, fatal to the development of organization amongst the workers, fatal to a 
successful defense of the workers' standards of living, was the surrender of the 
Street Carmen's Union to the Mitten Plan of Philadelphia. Here was a direct 
amalgamation of trade unionism and company unionism. Such is the program 
of the American Federation of Labor and the conservative independent unions. 
It is the ideal of the misleaders of labor. This is their fondest desire — to bring 
about an agreement with the capitalists so that the trade-union leaders can turn 
the trade unions into company unions and use them as instruments for the exploi- 
tation of the workers. Then, although the interests of the workers would be 
sacrificed, the group interests of the labor bureaucracy would be conserved. 

IN THE COAL INDUSTRY 

Another example of policy which I may briefly cite to indicate the general 
tendency of the labor leaders to the right, is what is taking place in the coal 
industry. John L. Lewis had several points in his program. One was tbat 
instead of a militant campaign to organize the unorganized miners in West Vir- 



CN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5399 

ginia, he demanded the removal of the railroad rate discrimination in favor of 
the West Virginia mines against the mines in the Pittsburgh district. This, he 
decleared, would win the strike and solve the union's problems. But now this 
rate discrimination has been abolished and who have been the gainers? The 
Pittsburgh Coal Company and the other big coa' companies in the Pittsburgh 
district who arc fighting the miners. That first point of Lewis' was capitalist in 
character. 

Lewis has a second point in his program, equally capitalistic. This is that 
the industry shall be monopolized, the "uneconomic" mines closed down and 
250,000 surplus miners driven out of the industry. Now we seem to be on the 
way also to have this point accomplished. The recent announcement by the 
Rockefeller interests that they will close down many of their "uneconomic" 
mini's and turn loose into the surfeited labor market the surplus miners from 
the shut-down mines, is the beginning of the acceptance of the second proposal 
of John L. Lewis. In fact. Rockefeller publicly thanks Lewis for his assistance to 
the capitalists in monopolizing the industry. 

Who will profit by such a procedure'.' Will the miners gain by it or the coal 
operators'.' It does not require much analysis to show which. What will happen 
in the Rockefeller properties and in the other districts where similar plans may 
be put into effect? The operation of the "uneconomic'' mines, so-called, consti- 
tutes a sort of division of work amongst the great body of miners. What work 
there is. is spread over most of the workers. But now the proposal is to throw 
large numbers of these miners into unemployment altogether and to give the 
others relatively steady work. The displaced miners will be thrust into the great 
army of the unemployed, there to starve. They have that alternative. Or they 
may try to stay in the industry and compete with the workers who have jobs 
and in this way serve as an industrial reserve army to break-down the condi- 
tions of the miners as a whole. 

LEWIS IS BOSSES' MAN 

Lewis, instead of organizing the unorganized miners and making a fight to 
establish the 6-hour day, 5-day week, and thus to reabsorb the unemployed 
miners and to protect their interests during the impending reorganization and 
trustification of the coal industry, acts as an efficiency expert of the operators 
by cooperating with them to close down the "uneconomic" mines at the expense 
of the miners. His policy sacrifices the interests of the workers and protects 
those of the capitalists. The whole thing is an open-shop proposal. It means 
more economy in production, elimination of competitors, and hence more profits 
for the employers. It means starvation for hundreds of thousands of miners, 
the break-down of wage and working standards, and the ruin of the United 
Mine Workers of America. It is such policies as this, with the union leaders 
acting as the agents of the bosses, that are liquidating the unions. 

The socialist trade-union leaders are proving themselves as reactionary as 
the old A. F. of L. leadership. In fact, they are often taking the lead in the 
movement to the right, of surrender to the employers. The standards of 
production of Sidney Hillman were among the first signs of real company 
unionism in the American labor movement. It was the socialist trade-union 
leaders in the needle trades who intensified the struggle against the left wing 
in the unions to the extent of splitting the organizations. In the needle 
trades they are the champions of piece work, of a union management coop- 
erative," and the whole employer program of devitalizing and company-union- 
izing the trade-unions. The socialists are every bit as incapable of leading the 
workers in this crisis as the most reactionary fakers of the American labor 
movement. 

TIIK STRUGGLE OF THE COAL MINERS 

The debacle now taking place in the United Mine Workers of America is a 
basic expression of the crisis in the labor movement, a conclusive example of 
the absolute incapacity of the present Leadership of the trade-unions to organize 
and had the masses. The U. M. W. A., which just a few years ago controlled 
80 percent of production in the bituminous fields, has been reduced by the loss 
of district after district, to where it now controls not more than 20 percent 
of the bituminous production. In the present strike the employers are destroy- 
ing three of the key sections of the Q. M. W. A. and thereby destroying lie 
base of the whole anion. All the heroic Struggles of these miners have not been 
able to avail themselves against the treachery of their leaders in the face of 
94931—39 — vol. 9 10 



5400 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

this great attack of the employers. The present miners' strike is the most 
important strike in the history of America. Bound up with this strike is the 
very life of the old trade-union movement. The break-down of the miners' 
union in this struggle throws the whole trade-union movement of the country 
into jeopardy. 

It is not my point here today to dwell upon the heroic struggle of these 
miners, as it has been very much discussed during this convention. The rank 
and file miners seem to realize the tremendous significance of the strike. 
They have fought for 14 months against the coal operators, against the govern- 
ment, with a heroism unparalleled. One of the things, comrades, that we 
must do with all our vigor when we return to our various districts, is to 
mobilize all our forces to gather every possible dollar of relief for the brave 
coal miners of the strike districts. This relief money we must not send to the 
American Federation of Labor or to the U. M. W. A., where it would be used 
for the shameful purpose of paying the huge salaries of John L. Lewis and 
his labor grafter friends (which run to $12,000 a year) while the striking 
miners starve. Send it to the National Miners' Relief Committee in Pittsburgh, 
which will use the money for actually feeding the impoverished miners who 
are out on strike. [Applause.] 

The hope and promise of the coal industry is the growing revolt of the rank 
and file miners. More and more they are learning the futility of Lewis' 
policies, and realizing that such policies can only lead to the loss of their 
union conditions and the liquidation of all union organization. The Save-tho- 
Union movement, with its historic slogans of "Lewis Must go" and "Workers, 
Take Control of Tour Union,'' is the greatest upheaval ever known in the 
American labor movement. From among the ruins of the U. M. W. A., wrecked 
by the treachery of the Lewis regime, the rank and file miners are building a 
new organization, one which, animated by a spirit of class struggle, will organize 
the great mass of miners and lead them victoriously against the operators. Our 
Party may well be proud of the role played by it in the present great struggle 
of the miners. [Applause.] 

The present great task of our Party is to organize the millions of unorganized 
workers and lead them in struggle against the employers and the state. With 
ever-larger numbers of unskilled and semiskilled workers developing more mili- 
tant moods, under the pressure of wage cuts, speed-ups, etc., the possibilities for 
mass organization and mass struggles become brighter. In the strikes of the 
workers in the coal, textile, needle, shoe, and other industries during the recent 
period our Party has played a central role. No big strikes take place now in 
the United States without the Communists taking a decisive part. But in the 
still bigger struggles not far ahead our Party will have to play an even more 
decisive role. 

The organization of the unorganized, the unification of the great masses of 
unorganized, exploited workers, is our basic task in the industrial work, and 
we must further that task with all our forces. Some may ask why it is that 
during a political campaign we talk about organizing the unorganized. This is 
because our Party is not merely a party of vote getters. It is a revolutionary 
party of struggle. It organizes the workers for the fight on every front. It is 
especially in the election campaign, when we have the ear of many thousands 
of workers, that we must drive home to them the fundamental necessity of build- 
ing great mass organizations in the industries. 

More than ever it becomes necessary for us to take the lead in the formation 
of new unions in the industries. The old unions have been wiped out of many 
industries and have become hopelessly decrepit in many more. The reactionary 
leaders will not organize the unorganized. This is the task of the left wing. 
We must not limit ourselves to the old unions. We must be the champions, the 
leaders in the formation of new unions among the unorganized industries. Here 
we must place the great emphasis of our efforts to organize the unorganized. 

But does this mean that we shall desert the old trade-unions? By no means. 
The Communists will never surrender the control of 3.000,000 organized workers 
to the reactionary leadership of the A. F. of L. [Applause.] We will fight to 
save, to build up, and to revolutionize all those trade-unions which possess a 
mass character and real vitality. We will give active support to the T. U. E. L. 
and to all kinds of left opposition movements in these organizations aiming to 
revolutionize them. 

The present situation teaches us this : The old trade-unionism is going. Amer- 
ican imperialism, with its monopolized, highly mechanized industry, mass pro- 
duction, speed-up system, company unionism, open-shop drive, and ruthless use 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 54Q1 

of State power, is too much for traditional craft unionism. The old unionism 
is being crushed and liquidated. A new and more revolutionary unionism is being 
born. It will be industrial in form and founded principally on the semiskilled 
and unskilled in the trustified industries. It is a basic task of our Party to lead 
in the foundation of this new unionism. 

OPPRESSION OF NEGROES 

Comrades, one of the planks in our Party platform deals with the question of 
the oppression of the Negro race. This plank I want to emphasize here. The 
Workers (Communis! i Party appears in the United States ns the sole champion, 
organizer, and defender of the Negro race. Our fight is for full social, political, 
and industrial rights for Negroes. In all our work we must keep this phase of 
our party program squarely before our eyes. In the past we have been all too 
inactive in this respect. But we must make this campaign the beginning of fresh 
efforts to unite the Negroes in behalf of their race and class interests, so that 
the world can recognize that the Workers (Communist) Party is really the de- 
fender and leader of the oppressed Negroes in this country. [Applause.] 

At this time I shall not deal with the whole Negro question. There is only one 
angle that I want to touch upon now. Our election campaign will take us into 
the Southern States. [Applause.] We have a plank in our platform on the Negro 
question that will arouse the most violent opposition in every element in the 
South that is determined to hold the Negro race in subjection. Nevertheless, 
we will go into the ultrareactionary South and we will speak for the Negro. 
We will defend our platform. [Applause.] In the land of lynch law we will 
denounce lynching. [Applause.] In the home of Jim Crow, we will attack 
segregationism. [Applause.] The entry of the Workers (Communist) Party 
into the South, and the bold raising of the issue of the emancipation of the Negroes 
during the coming election campaign will stand out as one of the historical 
events in the development of the class struggle in the United States. [Applause.] 

THE POLITICAL PARTIES 

Comrades, let me give you just a brief characterization of the various poli- 
tical parties. The workers have nothing to look for from the Republican and 
Democratic Parties except a continuation and intensification of the hardships 
under which the workers suffer. Both are controlled by big capital. A list of 
the campaign-fund donators to either party reads like a roster of trustified indus- 
try. Both represent the interests of big business. Their whole record is one of 
oppression of the workers for the benefit of the employers. In its policies the 
Democratic Party is as much the party of big capital, of big bankers, and manu- 
facturers, as the Republican Party itself. Smith is just as loyal a servant of 
capitalism as Hoover. 

Between the two old parties there are no real issues. The issues that once 
divided them, the tariff, states' rights, etc., money question, etc., no longer play 
this role. Such differences as exist over farm relief, prohibition, religion, etc., 
are not differences between the old parties but of groups within each of them. 
The capitalists have made themselves masters of both big parties, with their mis- 
cellaneous following, and use them to further their own class interests. 

The reactionary trade-union officials who call upon the masses of workers to 
vote for the candidates of these two old parties are misleaders of labor. They 
betray the workers into the hands of their class enemies. They are the political 
lickspittles of the Republican and Democratic politicians, the agents of the ex- 
ploiters of labor. 

What is true for the workers regarding the two old parties is equally true 
for the poor farmers. All that the farmers can expect from the Republican and 
Democratic Parties is support of the railroads, banks, meat packers, elevator 
combines, and various other capitalistic interests robbing the farmers. Coolidge's 
recent cold-blooded, sneering, sarcastic veto of the McNary-Haugen bill shows 
the contempt with which the Republican Party, controlled by the great financiers 
of the country, looks upon the demands of the farmers for relief in their present 
crisis. 

The Socialist Party is equally a blank so far as the workers and poor farmers 
are concerned. The Socialist Party, which carried the revolutionary traditions 
in the United States when the left wing was a section of that party, now has 
nothing to offer to the toiling masses but sellouts. It is an ally of the corrupt 



5402 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

trade-union bureaucracy. Its policy of betrayal expresses itself on botb the 
political and industrial fields. 

On the industrial field the Socialist Party makes no campaign for the organi- 
zation of the unorganized masses, no struggle for amalgamation of the old trade 
unions, no fight against the widespread wage cuts and speed-up ; on the contrary, 
it accepts the craft-union, class-collaboration policy of Green, Woll, etc., to 
company-unionize the trade unions. The socialist trade-union leaders, who are 
the mainstay of the Socialist Party, are part and parcel of the corrupt dominant 
union leadership. They make no fight against Green and Woll, but war to the 
death against the left wing, against every Communist in the labor organizations, 
against every element trying to build the labor movement find make it a fighting 
weapon in the interest of the workers. The Socialist Party is hopelessly wedded 
to the trade-union bureaucracy and its corrupt practices. 

On the political field the Socialist Party likewise makes no attack on capitalism. 
The Socialist Party cultivates amongst the workers every illusion and practice 
tending to strengthen capitalism. It preaches pacifism, class collaboration, par- 
liamentary opportunism, capitalist efficiency socialism. It makes no effective 
fight for tiie workers' interests now ; it does nothing to educate and organize them 
for the eventual revolution. Its impossible programs of trying to reform capital- 
ism amount in reality to a surrender to the present social system. Norman 
Thomas, the nominee of the Socialist Party for President, is in fact only a 
camouflaged defender of capitalism— a disguised supporter of the present system 
of exploiting the workers. The Socialist Party program tends to break up all 
real militancy amongst the workers. In a more revolutionary period it would 
express itself by the most flagrant betrayal of the revolution. This is ampry 
proved by experiences in Germany, France, in every country in Europe. Had it 
not been for the flagrant sellout of the workers' cause by the social-democratic 
party, capitalism would have been destroyed in Europe in the great revolutionary 
struggles immediately following the World War. 

The Proletarian Party and the Socialist Labor Party are but phrasemongering 
sects. They play no part in the struggles of the working class. 

Only the Workers (Communist) Party offers a program capable of organizing 
the workers for their everyday struggles and to prepare them for the revolu- 
tion. I have already given you some broad outlines of this program. I shall 
not repeat what I have already said. But I must emphasize one more phase 
of our program. We must advocate energetically and clearly in the present 
campaign the formation of a Labor Party based on trade unions and other 
labor organizations. So long as the great masse* of workers affiliate them- 
selves to follow the line of the two capitalist parties, so long will they be 
poisoned by capitalist propaganda and so long will they be a zero politically. 

The workers (Communist) Party is the real fighter for the Labor Party. The 
Socialist Party, the ally of Green, Woll & Co., sabotages on all fronts the 
fight for the Labor Party. The Workers (Communist) Party makes a militant 
straggle to establish the Labor Party. But our Party has no illusions that the 
Labor Party will lead the masses to their emancipation. If will not. That is 
the task of the Communist Party. Inevitably a mass Labor Party in the United 
States will he filled with reformist illusions. But in the present period, when 
we have to break the masses from the old parties, it is a step forward. On 
this basis the Workers (Communist) Party supports the Labor Party. 

BUILD THE PARTY 

Now. comrades, let me emphasize a matter of bash- importance for us in 
the present campaign. That is the building of the Workers (Communist) Party. 
Tremendous tasks confront our Party. I have already cited some of the most 
important of these. Our Party is small. Our Party is weak. But it must 
be made large and strong. Our Party must be built up vastly in order to carry 
on the great struggles confronting it. This party-building can be done if we 
but proceed energetically along the proper lines. Around our Party are thou 
sands, tens of thousands, yes, I can say a couple of hundreds of thousands of 
Avorkers who sympathize in a general way with our struggle. From this great 
mass of workers, just awakening to the class struggle, we must draw new 
elements in large amounts to fill up and build our Party. In this way it can 
be made strong to carry out the great tasks confronting it. 

The presidential election campaign must be utilized definitely for the build- 
ing of our Party, and its press. The campaign will be a failure if we do not 
succeed in doubling the membership of the Workers (Communist) Party. 



DN-AMEUICAX I'KOI'AtJANDA ACTIVITIES 5403 

[Applause.] And all thai I have said about the necessity of building the 
Workers (Communist) Party applies with equal force to the building of the 
Young Workers League. [Applause.] In every struggle in which our Party 
participates we find thai the youth, the young workers, are playing an increas- 
ingly important role. In the industries they form a bridge between the native- 
born workers and foreign workers. In the new unionism that is now beginning 
slowly to emerge the leaders will not be the old fossils and reactionary figures 
of the old trade unions, but new elements recruited from the youth of the 
country. We must build the 1 Young Workers League. [Applause.] 

Comrades, just a word in conclusion. Let us go into Hie election campaign 
in the sense that I have expressed our tasks. Let us not be discouraged by the 
magnitude of the problems confronting us, by tin- strength and arrogance of 
the enemy, by the weakness of our own forces. Today our Party is small and 
the parties of the capitalists are large and strong, but the day will surely come 
when the Communist Party will be the only political party in the United States. 
[Applause.] On that day it will be Hie Party of the victorious proletarian 
revolution. | Applause.] 

In this period the American working class is relatively apathetic. But forces 
are at work, forces bred of the failures and contradictions of the capitalist 
system itself, forces that drive the workers into deeper oppression, that will 
one day, sooner perhaps than we realize, awaken them, radicalize them, revolu- 
tionize them, and prepare them for a real attack against capitalism. Let us 
then build our Party in the daily struggles and in preparation for the revolution. 
Let us make our Party into a worthy brother of the Communist Parties of the 
Soviet Union, Germany, France, England, Czechslovakia, China, and other coun- 
tries, which under the leadership of the Communist International, are gradually 
mobilizing the working masses of the world for the overthrow of w r orld im- 
perialism and the establishment of the International Socialist Republic. 
I Applause. I 

Acceptance Sfkech of Benjamin Gitlow, Candidate for Vice President 

Comrades: It is a great honor to be one of the standard bearers of the only 
party of the exploited masses in the United States. 

This convention throws out a challenge to the whole bloody capitalist ruling 
class of the United States. 

The campaign which we are now entering is part of the war I be exploited 
masses are waging against those who exploit them. 

President Coolidge a couple of days ago declared that he was gratified at 
the action of the United States Congress when it passed the tax bill giving a 
fat present to the capitalists of the United States in the form of tax reductions 
amounting to over $200,000,000. The particular reason for Coolidge's gratifica- 
tion was the fact that Congress eliminated from the tax bill the provision for 
publicity on income-tax returns. The bankers, the industrialists, the large stock- 
holders in the United States do not want the workers and poor farmers of this 
country to know how much they steal and extract from the sweat and toil of 
the workers and farmers of the country. The Workers (Communist) Party on 
entering this campaign declares to the strikebreaker Coolidge. to the Ohio 
Gang that put Harding in power and made Teapot Dome famous, declares to 
the powers of Wall Street, declares to the pirates of Tammany Hall, and the 
plunderbund of the G. O. P. that in spite of the fact that the Republicans and 
Democrats combined in the last Congress to keep out of the press the record 
of capitalist robbery in the United States, the Communists will do everything 
to write down, in burning letters that will be understood, the whole bloody, 
crooked, comptemptible and hypocritical record of the capitalist ruling class of 
the United States. 

recobd of brutal oppression 

The record of the capitalist ruling class in the United Stales is indeed a 
tec;. id of brutality against the working class. W'e have present at this conven- 
tion the wife of one of the workers who was murdered together with others 
because he championed the cause of the oppressed and the working class. We 
received only a few days ago Hie news that a loyal fighter of the working class 
died in .Moscow. William D. Haywood was a memorable figure in the class 
war. For organizing the workers .and fighting to improve their conditions he 
was persecuted, imprisoned, and driven out of the country. Charles E. Ruth- 
enberg, one of the founders of our Party and a determined fighter against 



5404 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

imperialism and imperialist war. was thrown and kept in prison for many long 
years by the capitalist ruling class. 

We can recall at this time the many memorable struggles that took place 
in the United States, struggles in which workers were shot down like dogs, 
struggles in which workers were hounded into bull pens, struggles in which 
workers were torn from their families and deported. These events cover pages 
in the history of the American class struggle. At this time when we enter 
the presidential campaign we must not forget that there are now behind 
prison bars in capitalist dungeons in America valiant fighters of the working 
class. Mooney and Billings are still in prison. 

REMEMBER SACCO AND VANZETTl 

We must not forget that in spite of the opposition of the workers of all 
countries. American capitalism sent Sacco and Vanzetti. two innocent workers, 
to the electric chair. We must not forget that while we are living in a country 
of tremendous wealth, in a country which boasts it is the richest in the world, 
that though billions in wealth are piled up there are millions of men and women 
who are walking the streets looking for an opportunity to work, looking for 
a chance to eat, for a chance to live. We must not forget that in this country 
which boasts of liberty, which boasts of democracy, workers are not allowed 
to organize, workers are not allowed to strike, the injunction is used with effec- 
tiveness against the workers. 

OPPRESSION OF NEGROES 

We must not forget that in this country which claims that all peoples, all 
races are equal, millions of toilers because their skin is of different color, 
because they are Negroes, are denied the franchise in the South, are persecuted, 
are treated worse than dogs, and are lynched under conditions that are 
indescribable. 

We must not forget that while on the one hand we have plenty, a tremen- 
dous display of arrogant wealth, on the other, millions of children toil in the 
mills, in the mines, and in the factories to pile up fortunes for the capitalist 
ruling class of this country. 

In this campaign, we must declare that this capitalism and the riding class 
that maintains it, and the government that supports it and defends it with all 
its might, all this must go ! The toilers, the workers and poor farmers, must 
come into power. 

This convention will be reported by the capitalist press as a red convention. 
We are not .ashamed of the term "red." This convention is a red convention. 
It is made up of men and women with red fighting blood in their veins. 

At the present time we can point out that in one country in the world the reds 
are in power, the red flag flies as the flag of the country- That is the only 
country in which the workers and farmers have the power. In Russia, exploiters 
have been overcome. There a system of society is now being built that will 
give to the toilers all the advantages that their labor and ability can provide. 

RECOGNITION OF THE .SOVIET GOVERNMENT 

The United States Government, the government of Wall Street, the govern- 
ment of bankers, trusts, mergers, robbers, pirates, grafters, the government of 
the oil gang, etc., declared in the name of humanity that it cannot recognize a 
government where the working class is in power. This campaign is only an 
incident in the struggles between the workers, the farmers and the exploited 
masses with the exploiters who are in power. This struggle will have many 
phases, election campaign, strikes, demonstrations, parades, mass meetings, etc. 
One of the most important phases of this campaign will be the demand for the 
recognition of the Soviet Union. 

If the United States will persist in its refusal of the recognition of the 
Soviet government, we know that the time will come when the workers' gov- 
ernment in the United States — a Soviet government — will recognize Soviet 
Russia. [Applause.] 

U. S. IMPERIALISM 

American imperialism, drunk with the enormous profits that it won as a 
result of the world war is engaged in a very aggressive imperialistic campaign. 
In South America, in Mexico, in Nicaragua, in Haiti, and in the Philippines, 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5405 

tin' musses of toilers there are experiencing the bloody rule of American 
imperialism, in Asia the Chinese workers and peasants, who are engaged in 
a bitter struggle against the exploiters, feel the bloody hand of American 
imperialism. 

All ovei' the world the imperialists of the United States are fighting against 
the competition of imperialists of other countries. The policy of American 
imperialism is to drive the other imperialist powers out of the markets of the 
world. The result is a sharpening of the antagonisms between the imperialist 
powers. This aggressive imperialist policy of the United States is leading 
into a new world war. 

The next world war will be on a more gigantic, on a more costly, and on a 
more deadly scale than the war we have just experienced. Linked up with 
the question of the breaking out of a new imperialist war is the formation 
of a bloc of imperialist nations against the Soviet Union. 'We enter this cam- 
paign fully aware of the great danger of war facing the working class of 
this country and every other country. 

Our Party is an international party, our Party fights imperialist wars, our 
Party joins hands with the workers and toilers of all countries in defense of 
the exploited and toiling masses everywhere, and we declare that in the 
event of a war we will utilize the war to mobilize the workers, to mobilize 
the farmers, to mobilize the masses to make the war the burial ground for 
capitalism, not only in this country, but also in every other country in the 
world. [Applause.] 

WAR AGAINST THE SOVIET UNION 

In connection with the subject of war against the Soviet Union, it is inter- 
esting to note that relative to the Kellogg proposal the French government 
declares with the British government that the proposals against wars must be 
considered as proposals not including the Soviet Union. 

What does this mean? It means that the imperialists have in mind a war 
against the Soviet Union. This war has actually started. Encouraged by the 
hostile attitude of the imperialists against the Soviet Union, paid for by the 
imperialists, the counter-revolution has attempted to raise is head inside 
the Soviet Union. 

IMPERIALIST CONSPIRACY 

The affair of the Donetz basin is only one initial step on the part of the 
imperialists to undermine the economic machine of the Soviet Union, so that 
the Soviet Union will not be able to supply its workers and farmers with 
the materials of war in order to withstand the attacks of the imperialists. 
Already it is to the credit of the Soviet Union that it nipped this conspiracy 
in the imd, that the counter-revolution is crushed. We, members of the inter- 
national proletariat, members of the exploited masses of the world, of the 
Communist Party and the Communist International, declare in the event of 
an attack, of a war against the Soviet Union, we will defend the Soviet Union, 
which is our country — the country of the working class of the world. [Ap- 
plause.] We will do everything in our power to rout the imperialist enemies 
and bring about the victory of the Red Army. 

We of the Workers (Communist) Party, declare to the enemies of the 
working class and to the capitalist government, that the objective of the revo- 
lutionary party of the working class is the overthrow of the capitalist system 
of society. 

ROLE OF THE SOCIALIST PAKTT 

At the time when the capitalist reaction is growing, at a time when the inten- 
sification of exploitation is increasing, what is the role of the Socialist Party in 
the labor movement? 

The role of the Socialist Party in the labor movement is the role it demon- 
strated it can play so well in Germany. Italy, Poland, etc. 

It is the role of the hangman of the revolution. 

It is no accident that the day after the New Leader carries an attack against 
textile workers in New Bedford, against the rank and file committees that are 
leading the strike, after it carries a vicious attack against the Communists, 
that Communists and the rank and file of the New Bedford textile strike are 
arrested and thrown into prison. 

Who is the standard-bearer of the Socialist Party? The standard-bearer of 
the Socialist Party is a sky pilot, a minister, who believes that revolution is 
too costly for the workers. 



5406 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Well, how costly to the working class is the rule of capitalism and imperial- 
ism? 

Where has a revolution taken place on the face of the earth that was so 
bloody as the imperialist war? 

The result of capitalism is wage cuts, unemployment, poverty, misery, frame- 
ups, white terror, Fascism, and imperialist world war. 

These fruits of capitalism Norman Thomas favors, but he does not favor 
revolution to end all this. 

The extent to which the Socialist Party has degenerated, its complete aban- 
donment of the class struggle and the best traditions of Eugene V. Debs is 
clearly indicated in the article written by Victor Berger in the June issue of 
Current History. 

The Honorable Mr. Berger writes as follows : 

"If democracy is to survive, if the republic is to endure, we must have a 
political realignment. * * * And since both old parties are ultra-conserva- 
tive we must have an opposition party, striving and fighting for progress." 

Berger wants a political realignment — a political party of all classes. He 
does not want a working-class party. Berger has no use for a working-class 
revolutionary party that stands for the overthrow of capitalism. Berger is 
opposed also to a Labor Party. Berger only wants a reformist third party 
that fights for the vague thing "Progress." In other words Berger wants a 
"Progressive" capitalist party. It is logical for Berger to maintain that the 
Socialist Party is such a party. 

That the capitalists have nothing to fear from the Socialist Party, Congress- 
man Berger is convinced, because he writes : "All classes will be benefited by 
the change." If the Socialist Party comes into power the capitalists have 
nothing to worry, says Berger, they will be benefited by the change. 

Berger further writes : 

"Socialism can never take root in a commonwealth that is venal. A social- 
democracy can never be established in a nation that is rotten. More than any 
other citizen the socialist is interested in weeding out graft. More than any 
other party, the Socialist Party must make it its task to unearth corruption 
and prevent moral decay." 

No appeal here to the workers as a class to overthrow the whole corrupt 
edifice of capitalism. Socialism can never be established unless the rotten 
capitalist nation is made "clean and honest." The main task of a Socialist 
Party according to Berger is to unearth corruption and prevent moral decay. 
Eugene V. Debs must turn in his grave when he hears Berger state that the 
main task of the Socialist Party is to make capitalism and its government 
honest and to prevent its decay. The class struggle doesn't exist for Congress- 
man Berger. 

In the article on the Socialist Party and the 1928 election campaign, Victor 
Berger also makes the following statement: I will read it : 

"The prime essential factor, however, is the awakening of the social genius 
of American people. Without such awakening a- real change in our public 
life is impossible. Without a change in American psychology even a successful 
revolution will mean only a change of masters." 

He continues : 

"A similar instance we see in Russia where after all neither political not 
economic liberty was achieved." 

For whom does Mr. Berger want economic and political liberty? 

Have we got it in America? 

Have yon the right to strike? The right to vote? Do the Negroes have the 
right to vote? Quite the contrary- Who en.ioys the economic and political 
liberties in the United States — Mr. Worker or Mr. Rockefeller? 

The answer is very clear. Not the workers. 

The Haymarkets, the Passaics, the coal strikes, the unemployment, the in- 
junctions, the whole antilabor strike-breaking activities of the capitalist govern- 
ment of the United States, its sham hypocritical class democracy, is positive 
proof of the dominance, rule, and dictatorship of the capitalists over the country. 

COMPARISON WITH SOVIET RUSSIA 

In the Soviet Union it is different. In the Soviet Union the workers and 
peasants enjoy political and economic freedom. 

Soviet Russia established the 7-hour day. Compared to wealthy United States, 
Soviet Russia is still a very poor country. Nevertheless it could afford to 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5407 

establish a 7-hour day. It was established without strikes, without pickets, 
without injunctions. Why, because Soviet Russia was established as the result 
of a successful revolution which crushed capitalism and set up a working class 
government, with liberty and freedom, both political and economic, for the 
workers and not lor the shirkers. 

I was a member of the Socialist Party over a period of 11' years. I know 
what is left of the Socialist Tarty. 1 know that the revolutionary and militant 
elements have been driven out of the Socialist Tarty. 

L remember how I was expelled from the Socialist Party. A detective was 
planted in the central committee. The police encircled the party headquarters 
so as not to lei us ill. Now what is loft of the Socialist Party? Where are 
its L00,000 members? What is left? The Norman Thomases, the Victor Bergers, 
the HillquitS, the OnealS, the doctors, the lawyers, the dentists, the shopkeepers, 
the prostitute intellectuals, ail lickspittles of capitalism. That is what is left in 
the Socialist Party. [Applause.] 

The Communist Tarty sends a clarion call out of this convention to the West, 
to the North, to the South, and to the East. 

It sends a clarion call into every factory, into every mine, into every mill. 

It sends a call to ail workers, to all exploited, the farmers as well as the 
factory workers. 

It sends a call to the blacks, to the yellow races, to the whites: United against 
the powerful enemy, crush capitalism, make the working class the ruling elass. 
the Communist Tarty the ruling party. [Prolonged Applause. | 

The National Nominating Convention 

By Jay Lovestone, Executive Secretary. Workers (Communist I Party 

[Xote. — We print herewith the closing: remarks delivered by Jay Lovestone at the con- 
clusion of the National Nominating Convention of the Workeis (Communist) Tarty. It is 
a summary and estimate of tin 1 ('(invention's deliberations and actions.] 

Let me try to sum up the last two eventful days to you delegates and workers, 
who have had the very good fortune to attend and participate in the delibera- 
tions of the greatest Communistic convention ever held in the United States. 

I have attended many conventions. Republican and Democratic, as a reporter 
for The Daily Worker, and Communist Tarty and Socialist Party conventions 
as a delegate. I have never yet witnessed so genuine, so stirring, so inspiring 
a scene as the one in which you comrades demonstrated your loyalty to the 
cause of the working class, demonstrated when the standard-bearers of Com- 
munism in America were chosen by you today. 

ACHIEVEMENTS of the convention 

Before the delegates depart, they should have a clear understanding of some 
of the achievements of this convention and of some of the questions this con- 
vention has answered, not only for the state and fraternal delegations, not 
only for our Party as a whole, hut for the workers and the exploited farming 
masses of this country. 

First of all. we have a good Communist platform — the best Communist plat- 
form that our Party has ever had. a Communist platform on which we can 
appear with pride, with confidence, with great determination to go forward 
towards victory. 

Second, this convention serves as a splendid basis, a splendid center, to in- 
spire, to mobilize our Tarty and the workers in the coming election campaign 
months. 

Third, we have chosen sterling, model revolutionists — sterling, model stand- 
ard-bearers. Whal more can we ask from a gathering of our Party? 

SOME QUESTIONS ANSWERED 

This convention has been a tremendous Communist success from every 
viewpoint. This convention has cleared up certain questions, I believe, for all 
of us. I believe this convention has answered four main questions. 

Can Communism grow in America'.' Wo do not have to answer that question 
for you comrades and delegates here. I think that the way this convention 
was conducted, the way you delegates participated — the enthusiasm, the spirit, 
the militancy, the vigor, the determination — this is the proof that Communism 
can grow and will grow in the United states. [Applause.] 



5408 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Our Party represents the interests of the whole working class. Our Party 
has to date attracted to its banner primarily the most exploited section of the 
working class. This happens to be largely the foreign-born workers. We are 
not ashamed of the foreign-born workers ; we are proud of them, for it is they 
who have helped to build the railroads, build the ships, build the factories, 
which we will take back for the whole working class. [Applause.] 

This convention disproves one of the lies, one of the slanders, of the bour- 
geoisie, who say that we are not able to attract native American workers. The 
native American workers gathered here in our Party convention are as native 
as there are in the whole country. We are all workers regardless of whether 
we were born by accident in America or came here by choice. 

Our Party is not a party East of Chicago. Our Party is a national party 
from Maine to Texas, from California to Massachusetts. [Applause.] 

COMMUNISM A CONSTRUCTIVE FORCE 

Communism is shown by this convention as the most constructive force in 
the working class, despite the calumnies of the Socialist Party and trade- 
union bureaucracy and other enemies of the working class. Any movement 
which starts as a movement of social progress, goes forward when it works 
hand in hand with the Communists. But when it deserts and attacks the 
Communists, and rejects the Communist leadership, it goes down. 

Look at the ex-nationalist movement in China. Fifteen months ago the 
Chinese national movement swept terror into the hearts of the American. 
British, Japanese, and other imperialists. Remember when our Chinese Party 
was the brains and heart of the leadership of the then advancing Nationalist 
forces. Eighteen months ago, the British imperial lion was shuddering and 
we did not know whether the tail was wagging the lion or vice-versa. Today 
the imperialists are able to insult, bully, cajole, and smash at will the front 
of the betrayer Chiang Kai-shek. The Chinese National movement is down 
and out because it has deserted the Communist leadership and has become 
the home of the agents of the counter-revolution. 1 Keep in mind the different 
treatment accorded to the Chinese masses when the Hankow concession was 
redeemed from the British plunderers and the recent massacre by the Japanese 
imperialists at Tsinan-Fu. 

SOCIALIST "VICTORY" 

All the reward that the German workers got from the social-democratic 
leadership was the Dawes plan — the Dawes chain. This is the bitter fruit of 
the socialist victory in Germany. 

In Italy, where the Communists were defeated, we have bloody Fascism. 

In the Soviet Union, where the Communists won, and where they kept the 
leadership and power, we have the only workers' and farmers' government in 
the world. [Applause.] 

We say to the capitalists of this country that this convention proves very 
definitely that we in this country have made a good start towards a national 
election campaign, towards pushing forward working-class victory in America. 
The lessons and experiences learned and lived through by the workers of China. 
Germany, Italy, the Soviet Union, are bound to hold true for the workers of 
the United States. 

It is not an accident that we have with us here delegations of miners from 
Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Ohio. Where were the miners' delegations 
at the Socialist Party convention? The only miner at the Republican conven- 
tion will be John L. Lewis. The only miner at the Democratic convention 
will be William Green. The miners who are worth while are coming our way. 
[Applause. 1 

Let us look at the Negro masses. Where are the Negro masses insofar as 
the Republican convention is concerned? The paltry few that may be around 
this Wall street gathering are misleaders of the Negro masses and even these 
are segregated because of their color. In the Democratic convention, the only 
welcome the Negro might get is the welcome of a lynching party. The Socialist 
Partv? It had only one. and at that a misled Negro delegate. 



1 Ti>p Nationalist Tartv has since taken Peking, and because of its avowed enmity 
to and slaughter of tlie working mnsses and its compete sell-out to the Imperialist allies, 
has reeeived their temporary Messing. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5409 

The character of our Negro delegation is a tribute to the fact that the 
Communist Party is the only one that is ready to fight for the Negroes as well 
as Cor the other exploited and oppressed sections of the working class. 
[Applause.] The most significant Step in the history of our Party since its 
inception is the determination to go South, and to begin the difficult and 
dangerous task of smashing the solid South. Our Party aims not only to stop 
lynching, but to punish effectively the lynchers and to destroy the whole lynch 
system. Our Party hails and welcomes the Negroes. We are with them and 
for them. T Applause.] 

The farmers : we have here dirt farmers. Senator Capper, a multi-millionaire 
newspaper owner among farmers, is the best farmer the Republican Party con- 
vent ion will have. There probably will be less wealthy farmers at the Demo- 
era tie convention. The agricultural workers, together with the exploited farm- 
ing masses, will yet be aroused to a mass struggle against their enemies, who 
are also the enemies of the workers in the cities. 

Nor is it an accident that the Haitians, the Chileans, the Peruvians— the 
colonial and semicolonial masses— have sent delegates to this convention. We 
are their party. 

WORKING-CLASS TRADITIONS 

And it is not an accident that our Party is the inheritor of the best tradi- 
tions of the American working class. Our working class has splendid tradi- 
tions—the traditions of Haymarket, the traditions of heroic strike struggles, 
the best of the traditions of every struggle and movement for the enhancement 
of social progress. We have inherited the best that was in anarchism, the 
best that was in syndicalism, the best that there was in the whole Socialist 
Party. The spirit of Ruthenberg and Debs and Haywood, the spirit of the 
Haymarket martyrs, the spirit of our dead leaders, and the spirit of vigorous 
vouth coming forward, are ours today. Here is the best proof that our Party 
has inherited all that has been and that is most worthwhile in the American 
working class. 

Last but not least, this convention has answered the question whether our 
Party will participate successfully in the election campaign. We, in splitting 
from the old Socialist Party, spurned and spat upon, reacted bitterly against 
the old parliamentary fakery and cretinism of the Hillquits and Bergers. In 
this wholesome reaction, we developed certain dangerously wrong syndicalist 
ideas and attitudes. This convention deals a mortal blow to these miscon- 
ceptions. You delegates are going back to act as Leninists in this election 
campaign, without socialist illusions and without syndicalist fears — in the most 
brutal, the most powerful, capitalist country. [Applause.] 

ON TO WORK AND FIGHT 

You must go back to work. Work, work and fight! We must get on the 
ballot. To our Party the campaign for getting on the ballot must serve as a 
means of acquainting with Communism, of inspiring, of educating new thou- 
sands of working and farming masses. To Communists, getting on the ballot 
is an entirely different proposition from what we knew it to be and what it 
still is in the Socialist Party. The fight to get on the ballot should enable us 
to spread our ideas more widely, to distribute our literature more effectively, 
and to win new masses to our ranks. 

We must do the small, the little things, the dirty, insignificant, menial work 
from the very bottom. Nothing is unimportant. Even the most minute mat- 
ters — this detail here and another detail there — must be properly and promptly 
handled. You must become leaders in the Party work in the coming campaign. 

DESTROY LEWIS 

Our election campaign is not a separate campaign from our mining cam- 
paign. If we want to help save the miners, we must destroy Lewis. If we 
want to destroy the corrupt Lewis machine, we must work overtime to help 
the miners. The same principles must guide us in the needle trades and textile 
campaigns. The election campaign is tied up with the fight against unem- 
ployment, against the speed-up system, against company unionism, against 
the labor fakers, the Socialist Party bureaucracy, the imperialist war in 
Nicaragua, the fight for recognition of the Soviet Union. The election cam- 



5410 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

paign is a unifying campaign. We count on you to carry it out in that way. 
We expect you to go back to your territory and to bring back enthusiasm. 
Nothing is more contagious than revolutionary enthusiasm. Spread the con- 
tagion of revolutionary enthusiasm and our Party will move forward with 
gigantic strides. 

The work of the convention speaks for itself. The election campaign affords 
us a fine opportunity to build the Party. Keep this in mind above all. Our 
Party is the only party, the only organization of the working class which is 
growing today. You have a fine start. We want you to keep up the good 
pace. This convention will help usher in a new and better day for our Party. 
This convention is a symbol of the fact that our Party is not only a propa- 
ganda organization, not only a party of revolutionary agitation, but is the 
party of revolutionary organization of the American working class. Today 
our Party is the dynamic force in the American working class. 

I will close with these remarks. You have something to be proud of. You 
have participated in one of the greatest conventions of this Party of ours. 
To be a Communist is the highest honor, the greatest and noblest mark of 
distinction that a worker can win — involving the most difficult task, the most 
arduous work. You are the front-line fighters, the most advanced battalions 
of the workers. Communists must be worthy of this highest honor. We want 
you to be proud of your Party. We want you to fight for your Party, to love 
your Party, to build a bigger and better Communist Party. We know that 
you can, that you will do it, that you will work, that you will fight, and that 
we will take many a step to bring us nearer to victory for the cause of the 
Communist International in the United States — for the cause of the whole 
American working class and its allies in the decisive revolutionary battle 
against the Wall Street imperialists. [Applause.] 

Mr. Matthews. The witness this morning said he accepted the 
principles set forth in the program of the Communist International. 

I also ask that a portion of the program bearing on the point dis- 
cussed this morning be incorporated in the record, being pages 34, 35, 
36, 37, and down to paragraph 3 on page 39. 

(The material referred to follows:) 

The Period of Transition From Capitalism to Socialism and the 
Dictatorship of the Proletariat 

1. the transition period and the conquest of powek by the proletariat 

Between capitalist society and communist society a period of revolutionary 
transformation intervenes, during which the one changes into the other. Cor- 
respondingly, there is also an intervening period of political transition, in which 
the essential state form is the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat. 
The transition from the world dictatorship of imperialism to the world dicta- 
torship of the proletariat extends over a long period of proletarian struggles 
with defeats as well as victories ; a period of continuous general crisis in capi- 
talist relationships and the maturing of socialist revolutions, i. e., of proletarian 
civil wars against the bourgeoisie; a period of national wars and colonial rebel- 
lions which, although not in themselves revolutionary proletarian socialist 
movements, are nevertheless, objectively, insofar as they undermine the domina- 
tion of imperialism, constituent parts of the world proletarian revolution ; a 
period in which capitalist and socialist economic and social systems exist side 
by side in "peaceful" relationships as well as in armed conflict : a period of for- 
mation of a Union of Soviet Republics; a period of wars of imperialist states 
against Soviet states ; a period in which the ties between the Soviet states and 
colonial peoples become more and more closely established, etc. 

Uneven economic and political development is an absolute law of capitalism. 
This unevenness is still more pronounced and acute in the epoch of imperialism. 
Hence it follows that the international proletarian revolution cannot be con- 
ceived as a single event occurring simultaneously all over the world ; at first 
socialism may be victorious in a few, or even in one single capitalist country. 
Every such proletarian victory, however, broadens the basis of the world revolu- 
tion and, consequently, still further intensifies the general crisis of capitalism. 
Thus the capitalist system as a whole reaches the point of its final collapse ; the 
dictatorship of finance capital perishes and gives place to the dictatorship of the 
proletariat. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 54H 

Bourgeois revolutions brought about the political liberation of a system of 
productive relationships thai had already established Ltself and become eco- 
nomically dominant, and transferred political power from the bands of one class 
Of exploiters to the bands of another. Proletarian revolution, however, signifies 
the forcible invasion of the proletariat into the domain of property relationships 
of bourgeois society, the expropriation of the expropriating classes, and the 
transference of power to a class that aims at the radical reconstruction of the 
economic foundations of society and the abolition of all exploitation of man by 
man. The political domination of the feudal barons was broken all over the 
world as the result of a series of separate bourgeois revolutions that extended 
over a period of centuries. The international proletarian revolution, however, 
although it was not be a single simultaneous act, but one extended over a wdiole 
epoch, nevertheless — thanks to the closer ties that now exist between the coun- 
tries of the world — will accomplish its mission in a much shorter period of time. 
only after the proletariat has achieved victory and consolidated its power all 
over the world will a prolonged period of intensive construction of world 
socialist economy set in. 

The conquest of power by the proletariat is a necessary condition precedent 
to the growth of socialist forms of economy and to the cultural growth of the 
proletariat, which transforms its own nature, perfects itself for the leadership 
of society in all spheres of life, draws into this process of transformation all 
other classes and thus prepares the ground for the abolition of classes altogether. 

In the struggle for the dictatorship of the proletariat, and later for the trans- 
formation of the social system, as against the alliance of capitalists and land- 
lords, an alliance of workers and peasants is formed, under the intellectual 
and political hegemony of the former, an alliance which serves as the basis for 
lb.' dictatorship of the proletariat. 

The characteristic feature of the transition period as a whole is the ruthless 
suppression of the resistance of the exploiters, the organization of socialist 
construction, the mass training of men and women in the spirit of socialism 
and the gradual disappearance of classes. Only to the extent that these great 
historical tasks are fulfilled will society of the transition period become trans- 
formed into communist society. 

Thus the dictatorship of the world proletariat is an essential and vital con- 
dition precedent to the transition of world capitalist economy to socialist econ- 
omy. This world dictatorship can be established only when the victory of 
socialism has been achieved in certain countries or groups of countries, when 
the newly established proletarian republics enter into a federative union with 
the already existing proletarian republics, when the number of such federations 
has grown and extended also to the colonies which have emancipated them- 
selves from the yoke of imperialism: when these federations of republics have 
finally grown into a World Union of Soviet Socialist Republics uniting the whole 
of mankind under the hegemony of the international proletariat organized as 
a state. 

The conquest of power by the proletariat does not mean peacefully "captur- 
ing" the ready-made bourgeois state machinery by means of a parliamentary 
majority. The bourgeoisie resorts to every means of violence and terror to 
safeguard and strengthen its predatory property and its political domination. 
Like the feudal nobility of the past, the bourgeoisie cannot abandon its histori- 
cal position to the new class without a desperate and frantic struggle. Hence 
the violence of the bourgeoisie can be suppressed only by the stern violence of 
the proletariat. The conquest of power by the proletariat is the violent over- 
throw of bourgeois power, the destruction of the capitalist state apparattis 
(bourgeois armies, police, bureaucratic hierarchy, the judiciary, parliaments, 
etc.). and substituting in its place new organs of proletarian power, to serve 
primarily as instruments for the suppression of the exploiters. 

2. THE DICTATORSHIP OF THE PROLETARIAT AND ITS SOVIET FORM 

As has been shown by the experience of the October revolution of 1917 and 
by the Hungarian revolution, which immeasurably enlarged the experience 
of the Paris Commune of 1871, the most suitable form of the proletarian state 
is the Soviet state — a new type of State, which differs in principle from the 
bourgeois state, not only in its class content, but also in its internal structure. 
This is precisely the type of State which, emerging as it does directly out 
of the broadest possible mass movement of the toilers, secures the maximum 
of mass activity and is, consequently, the surest guarantee of final victory. 



5412 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Soviet form of state, being the highest form of democracy, namely, prole- 
tarian democracy, is the very opposite of bourgeois democracy, which is bour- 
geois dictatorship in a masked form. The Soviet state is the dictatorship of 
the proletariat, the rule of a single class — the proletariat. Unlike bourgeois 
democracy, proletarian democracy openly admits its class character and aims 
avowedly at the suppression of the exploiters in the interests of the over- 
whelming majority of the population. It deprives its class enemies of political 
rights and, under special historical conditions, may grant the proletariat a 
number of temporary advantages over the diffused petty-bourgeois peasantry 
in order to strengthen its role of leader. While disarming and suppressing its 
class enemies, the proletarian state at the same time regards this deprivation 
of political rights and partial restriction of liberty as temporary measures in 
the struggle against the attempts on the part of the exploiters to defend or 
restore their privileges. It inscribes on its banner the motto : the proletariat 
holds power not for the purpose of perpetuating it, not for the purpose of 
protecting narrow craft and professional interests, but for the purpose of 
uniting the backward and scattered rural proletariat, the semi-proletariat, and 
the toiling peasants still more closely with the most progressive strata of the 
workers, for the purpose of gradually and systematically overcoming class 
divisions altogether. Being an all-embracing form of the unity and organiza- 
tion of the mases under the leadership of the proletariat, the Soviets, in actual 
fact, draw the broad masses of the proletariat, the peasants and all toilers 
into the struggle for socialism, into the work of building up socialism, and 
into the practical administration of the state ; in the whole of their work they 
rely upon the working-class organizations and practice the principles of broad 
democracy among the toilers to a far greater extent and immeasurably closer 
to the masses than any other form of government. The right of electing and 
recalling delegates, the combination of the executive with the legislative power, 
the electoral system based on a production and not on a residential qualifica- 
tion (election by workshops, factories, etc.) — all this secures for the working 
class and for the broad masses of the toilers who march under its hegemony 
systematic, continuous, and active participation in all public affairs — economic, 
social, political, military, and cultural — and marks the sharp difference that 
exists between the bourgeois-parliamentary republic and the Soviet dictator- 
ship of the proletariat. 

Bourgeois democracy, with its formal equality of all citizens before the law, 
is in reality based on a glaring material and economic inequality of classes. 
By leaving inviolable, defending and strengthening the monopoly of the capi- 
talist and landlord classes in the vital means of production, bourgeois democ- 
racy, as far as the exploited classes and especially the proletariat is con- 
cerned, converts this formal equality before the law and these democratic- 
rights and liberties, which in practice are systematically curtailed, into a 
juridical fiction and, consequently, into a means for deceiving and enslaving 
the masses. Being the expression of the political domination of the bour- 
geoisie, so-called democracy is therefore capitalist democracy. By depriving 
the exploiting classes of the means of production, by placing the monopoly of 
these means of production in the hands of the proletariat as the dominant 
class in society, the Soviet state first and foremost guarantees to the working 
class and to the toilers generally the material conditions for the exercise of 
their rights by providing them with promises, public buildings, printing plants, 
traveling facilities, etc. 

In the domain of general political rights the Soviet state, while depriving 
the exploiters and the enemies of the people of political rights, completely 
abolishes for the first time all inequality of citizenship, which under systems 
of exploitation is based on distinctions of sex, religion, and nationality : in 
this sphere it establishes an equality that is not to be found in any bourgeois 
country. In this respect, also, the dictatorship of the proletariat steadily lays 
down the material basis upon which this equality may be truly exercised by 
introducing measures for the emancipation of women, the industrialization of 
former colonies, etc. 

SOVIET DEMOCRACY, THEREFORE, IS PROLETARIAN DEMOCRACY, DEMOCRACY OB" THE 
TOILING MASSES, DEMOCRACY DIRECTED AGAINST THE EXPLOITERS 

The Soviet state completely disarms the bourgeoisie and concentrates all 
arms in the hands of the proletariat; it is the firmed proletarian state. The 
armed forces under the Soviet state are organized on a class basis, which cor- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5413 

responds to the general structure of the proletarian dictatorship, and guar- 
antees the role of leadership to the industrial proletariat. This organization, 
while maintaining revolutionary discipline, ensures to the warriors of the Red 
Army and Navy close and constant contacts with the masses of the toilers, 
participation in the administration of the country and in the work of building 
up socialism, 

Mr. Foster. Mr. Chairman, If I may, I would like to state that 
I consider this testimony, before the Fisli Committee on this point 
with respect to this Hag situation, as incorrect, and that I no longer 
subscribe to that point. 

The Chairman. You do not deny you have testified to it? 

Mr. Foster. I do not. 

The Chairman. But since then you have changed your viewpoint, 
party-line viewpoint? 

Mr. Foster. You have present here pamphlets which state my 
position on the American flag very definitely. 

The Chairman. I see. 

Mr. Foster. The pamphlet, Questions and Answers, on this specific 
point. 

The Chairman. Regarding the question of the American flag you 
have changed your viewpoint, or is your viewpoint entirely changed? 

Mr. Foster. This whole question of nationalism changed my point 
of view. 

The Chairman. What I mean is, to what extent ? All of the testi- 
mony given before the Fish Committee no longer correctly states 
your viewpoint ? 

Mr. Foster. Well, I would have to read it. 

The Chairman. The point that he read to you? 

Mr. Foster. Yes ; I think that is incorrect. 

The Chairman. It is incorrect? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. My position on this is stated very clearly in 
the pamphlet, Questions and Answers. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you accept the decisions, theses, resolutions, or 
whatever they are called of the Seventh World Congress of the 
Communist International, which Congress was held in Moscow, 1935 ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Then I ask, Mr. Chairman, that the resolution of 
the Communist International on war be incorporated in the record 
as giving in substance what it is that Mr. Foster accepts. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. The first paragraph of that resolution reads as 
follows : 

The Seventh Congress of the Communist International, in outlining the task< 
(.1' the Communist Parties and of the entire working class in the event of war, 
bases itself upon the thesis advanced by Lenin and Rosa Luxemburg and 
adopted by the Stuttgart Congress of the Pre-war Second International: 

'"If nevertheless war breaks out. it is their duty to work for its speedy 
termination and to strive with all their might to utilize the economic and 
political crisis produced by the war to rouse the political consciousness of the 
masses of the people and thereby hasten the downfall of capitalist class rule." 

At the present historical juncture, when on one fixed point of the globe the 
Soviet Union defends socialism and peace for all humanity, the most vital 
interests of the workers and toilers of all countries demand that in pursuing the 
policies of the working class, in waging the struggle for peace, the struggle 
against imperialist war before and after the outbreak of hostilities, the defense 
of the Soviet Union must be considered paramount. 



5414 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

If the commencement of a counter-revolutionary war forces the Soviet Union 
to set the workers' and peasants' red army in motion for the defense of 
Socialism the Communists will call upon all toilers to work, with all means at 
their disposal and at any price, for the victory of the red army over the 
armies of the imperialists. 

This is one of the resolutions of the Comintern which the witness 
says he accepts. 

The Chairman. This was some of the principles set out? 

Mr. Foster. That was written on the basis of the situation in 1935. 

Mr. Matthews. You said you accepted it, the thesis of the Inter- 
national. 

Mr. Foster. The statements of conditions as they were. 

Mr. Matthews. That is a thesis of a hypothetical condition. You 
objected to answering a hypothetical question and it was a hypo- 
thetical war in 1935. Is it not true that the Comintern, the Com- 
munist Party 

Mr. Foster. But we are living in 1939 now. 

Mr. Matthews. You stated that you did not want to go on record 
with reference to any number of hypothetical situations. Is not your 
entire position toward the Soviet in America a hypothetical discus- 
sion ? 

Mr. Foster. No; it is not. 

Mr. Matthews. It is not ? 

Mr. Foster. By no means; no. The thesis, the general thesis, of 
this book is correct. There is nothing hypothetical about it. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster, is it true, that the party line has 
changed so much in recent years that individuals prominent in 
American public life, in one way or another, who were formerly 
viciously, scurrilously attacked by the Communist Party but are 
now held, to some extent, as fulfilling the role which is in line with 
the purposes of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Foster. With the shifting of the economic policies, with all 
the different roles being played by political cycles, naturally the 
attitude of the party toward them has changed accordingly. 

Mr. Matthews. The answer is yes. 

Mr. Foster. The answer is not yes; the answer is as I said. 

Mr. Matthews. You were head of the TUUL, were you? 

Mr. Foster. I was. 

Mr. Matthews. Was the National Miners Union one of the con- 
stituent elements belonging to the TUUL? 

Mr. Foster. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Was the president of the National Miners Union 
Dne Tom Myerscough? 

Mr. Foster. I don't remember that he was president. 

Mr. Matthews. He was head of it, was he not ? 

Mr. Foster. No ; he wasn't. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he the executive secretary? 

Mr. Foster. He was one of the officials. He may have been the 
president at one time but he wasn't the head of it. 

Mr. Brodsky. What year? 

Mr. Matthews. It was for one of the years during the existence 
Df the National Miners Union. 

Mr. Matthews. You would know him, would you not? 

Mr. Foster. He was one of the leaders; he is not an outstanding 
leader. 



IN- A. Mi: UK 'AX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5415 

Mr. Matthews. He was one of the leaders ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. The National Miners Union was under your sup- 
ervision and direction as head of the Trade Union League? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. And publications by Tom Myerscough would, in 
the ordinary course of time, have come to your attention — is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Foster. Not necessarily. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever seen this pamphlet discussing the 
name. Lewis, John L. ? 

Mr. Foster. I have seen it. 

Mr. Matthews. You are familiar with the contents of that pam- 
phlet \ 

Mr. Foster. I read it at the time. I could not state what is in it 
now. 

Mr. Matthews. Would you much prefer that nothing, that is, not 
much of the pamphlet be incorporated into this record? 

Mr. Foster. That is up to you entirely. 

Mr. Matthews. As you recall this pamphlet, does it not make up 
one of the most scurrilous and vicious pieces of writing ever done? 

Mr. Foster. I would have to read it before I could say. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, I will show you one or two passages. Do you 
recall Mr. Hayes, who was at one time president of the United Mine 
Workers of America \ 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And you know he was succeeded by John L. Lewis? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mi'. Matthews. Do you recall what the pamphlet sets up as facts 
with regard to the manner in which John L. Lewis succeeded as 
president of the United Mine Workers of America? 

Mr. Foster. No; I do not. 

Mr. Matthews. All right ; I would like for you to read it. 

Mr. Foster. You read it. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I prefer not to read it. 

The Chairman. Is it obscene? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; highly so. 

The Chairman. Then do not put it in the record. 

Mr. Matthews. I think the witness is fully aware of the character 
of this pamphlet and of its scurrilousness, its vindictiveness, and that 
it runs parallel to the writings of the trade unionists literature — is 
that not correct. Mr. Foster, with regard to this particular pamphlet? 

Mr. Foster. I beg your pardon. 

Mr. Matthews. Is not the scurrilousness, the vindictiveness of this 
pamphlet almost unparalleled in trade-union literature? 

Mr. Foster. I do not know; I would have to read it. 

Mr. Mai thews. I thought you said you had read it? 

Mr. Foster. I read it years ago. 

Mr. Matthews. But in regard to party lines, you said a moment ago, 
however, that the situation changed with respect to the objects of this 
pamphlet. That was your testimony, I believe? 

Air. Foster. No: I did not say that. 

9 I'.iSl— 30— vol. o 11 



5416 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Well, is Mr. Lewis one of those to whom the party 
line has changed, radically? 

Mr. Foster. Mr. Lewis is not a Communist ; he is not a Socialist. 

Mr. Matthews. I did not ask yon if he was a Communist. 

Mr. Foster. But I am saying that. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, I am not interested in that. 

Mr. Foster. But I am. 

Mr. Matthews. All right; say it. 

The Chairman. He is asking yon about party lines. No one is inti- 
mating that Mr. Lewis is a Communist. He asked you about party 
lines being changed, or your attitude about Mr. Lewis being changed. 

Mr. Foster. I am going to answer very precisely that question if I 
may. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Foster. I said that Mr. Lewis is not a Communist and he is not 
a Socialist. He is not a radical of any kind. He is a progressive, 
ardent unionist, who in recent years has realized the fundamental 
necessity of organizing the workers in the basic industries, and for 
this, as one, he has the applause of the trade unions of the world, and 
we applaud, with the others, him for this work. In the past we very 
severely criticized Mr. Lewis when he followed conservative lines. 

Mr. Matthews. You say that he now or then followed conservative 
lines ? 

Mr. Foster. When he did follow conservative lines, we criticized him. 

Mr. Matthews. That was years ago; that is years ago, when you 
said he was a conservative. Did you not call him corrupt, one of the 
most, unparallelled in the history of American labor? 

Mr. Foster. Whatever is in that pamphlet? 

Mr. Matthews. In your own book, I am speaking of ? 

Mr. Foster. You can read it. 

Mr. Matthews. Misleaders of labor. Is that what you referred 
to as a conservative? 

Mr. Foster. It may be. We have generally referred to trade- 
union leaders who have become conservative, who have fallen under 
the influence of the ideology of the capital imperialists as corrupt. 

Mr. Matthews. I will read you just a paragraph to see if you 
charged him with being a conservative at the point in your book 
where you discuss him. 

The present head of the workers deserves to rank with John Mitchell as one 
of the most powerful and reactionary leaders in the history of the miners' anion. 
He hails from Illinois. He came into power by the back-door route. He was 
a technical worker for the union. His tool, the weak Frank J. Hayes, 
appointed him vice president to fill the vacancy made by Hayes himself when 
he took White's place as president. Lewis then framed-up on Hayes. 

You say in here that Lewis then framed-up on Hayes? Is that 
approximately what the story is? 

Mr. Foster. That is what you say. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. Then, will you tell how he framed-up on 
him ? 

Mr. Foster. I do not know. That is many years ago; that is 
something that was said at the time. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, I will read further. 

Lewis kept him drunk and finally involved him in a compromising situation 
which forced Hayes to resign. Lewis automatically became president. It 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIKS 5417 

was the Bourgian strategy in Lewis, among his other doubtful connections, is 
n national figure in the Republican Party. 

And, I do not see anything in the discussion of Mr. Lewis where 
you charged him with being a conservative. I read the entire dis- 
cussion through. 

Mr. Foster. I must say that I consider that statement as very 
unfair to Mr. Lewis, and evidently, I entirely miscalculated him. 

Mr. Matthews. Were the facts true? 

Mr. Foster. At the time I believed they were. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean lie did frame-up on Hayes, and that he 
did involve him in a compromising situation and forced Hayes to 
resign, is not only false hut very shortly afterward Hayes died? 

Mr. Foster. I would say this: That these things were presented 
to me as true, and I believed them. 

Mr. Matthews. You believed them I 

Mr. Foster. But in view of Mr. Lewis' later progressive role in 
the American labor movement I think that this entire section is based 
on a misapprehension. 

Mr. Matthews. You think that the Bourgian strategenis as you 
call them, should be forgotten? 

Mr. Foster. I certainly would withdraw them, repudiate them. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you repudiate the facts, or the statement about 
the facts? 

Mr. Foster. As I said, in view of Mr. Lewis' progressiveness in 
our time I do not think he would be guilty of such procedure. 

Mr. Matthews. Then or now ? 

Mr. Foster. Then, either then or now. 

Mr. Matthews. Then or now \ 

Mr. Foster. Yes: I think it was based on misinformation. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, this was a case of the Communist 
Party smearing a political opponent, was it not? 

Mr. Foster. This was a case of a struggle against a conservative 
leadership, and Mr. Lewis smeared us incidentally. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; we have that proof. 

Mi-. Foster. And we did not bother to pull our punches. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Foster. But I said I would entirely withdraw this in view of 
Mr. Lewis' activities. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you recently been to South America, Mr. 
Foster? 

Mr. Foster. Xot for 35 years. 

Mr. Matthews. How long? 

Mr. Foster. Thirty-five years ago. 

Mr. Matthews. You have not been to South America in the last 
few years '. 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mi-. Yookhis. Well, Mr. Foster, do I understand that you believe 
that is not true, that is, what you said here? 

Mr. Foster. I beg your pardon. 

Mr. Yoorhts. Do I understand that you believe the things are not 
true, what were written there in that book '. 

Mr. Foster. My opinion is they are not true and were not true at 
the time, but that in the heat of a bitter, factional struggle with Mr. 
Lewis we were led to say things that were unjust. 



5418 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Voorhis. I can understand that. 

Mr. Foster. And that we have reached the conclusion that Mr. 
Lewis 

Mr. Voorhis (interposing). I understand, but in a matter of that 
kind, whether deliberately or not deliberately, charges of that kind 
are of so serious a character that it seems to me it carries a con- 
troversy pretty far. 

Mr. Foster. I stated that those matters were presented to me as 
being true and I believed them because I was aware of the libel law 
at the time. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever checked up to see about them? 

Mr. Foster. I certainly would not ask Mr. Lewis. 

Mr. Matthews. You believed it was true? 

Mr. Foster. I believed them at the time. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words you did not approve of Mr. Lewis' 
course of action at the time, but now that you do approve of him 
you are willing to accept them as untrue? 

Mr. Foster. No ; that is not correct. 

Mr. Whitley. You were just asked if you did not think they 
were true now. 

Mr. Foster. No; because Mr. Lewis' progressive movement, the 
part he has played in the labor movement. 

Mr. Whitley. You mean you would not believe them since he has 
accomplished things; you would not have charged him with that? 

Mr. Foster. I did not say that. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know who Al Hamilton was, Mr. Foster? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. You know who Al Hamilton was? 

Mr. Foster. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you participate in the circulation of stories 
concerning the connections between Al Hamilton and John L. Lewis? 

Mr. Foster. I don't know. If it is in that book, I wrote it. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. Did not you and those associated with you 
in the campaign on behalf of Mr. Brophy for the presidency of the 
United Mine Workers, against John L. Lewis, put widely into cir- 
culation the story that Mr. Lewis had accepted checks which were 
bribes from Al Hamilton, did not you claim thaere were photostatic 
copies of those checks scattered all around the country ? 

Mr. Foster. I have no recollection of doing it, 

Mr. Matthews. You have no recollection of the check that Al 
Hamilton was alleged to have given John L. Lewis to bribe him in 
the anthracite strike? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Was not that the main campaign story used against 
Lewis on behalf of Brophy ? 

Mr. Foster. No; it was not, by no manner of means. The thing 
that was involved there was a disagreement on the policies of the 
union. 

Mr. Matthews. I am not asking you about the thing that was 
involved ; I am asking you about the campaign story. Will you state 
for the record you did not say that? 

The Chairman. He said the campaign story which was distributed 
and put out. Anyway, answer the question. 

Mr. Foster. I answered his question. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5419 

Mr. Matthews. Thai thai wasnol a campaign story ? 

Mr. Foster. You said the main campaign story. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; the main campaign story. 

Mr. Foster. That campaign was fought on the basis of political 
issues. 

Mr. Matthews. I am not talking on the basis of political issues; I 
am talking about the campaign story. 

The Chairman. He said no. it was not the campaign story; is that 
righl ( 

Mr. Foster. That is what I said. 

The Chairman. He said it was not a campaign story. 

Mr. Foster. It probably was bandied about. 

Mr. Matthews. All right, if Mr. Foster denies it, I would like to 
put in the record 

The Chairman. You mean put in the story? 

Mr. Matthews. The story which he and his associates circulated 
concerning a bribery check, and it is a story- 

The Chairman. Well, is it signed by Mr. Foster? 

Air. Matthews. It is a story in his book and in Mr. Myercough's 
book, who was his lieutenant in the United Miners' Union fight, as he 
testified. 

Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Foster, you do not deny, do you, that that story 
was used '. I do not know anything about the story, but I mean do you 
deny that the story was used in this campaign? 

Mr. Foster. I don't recollect it playing any role. If it is in my 
book — the fact is I don't recall it at all, but, if it is in my book, no 
doubt it played some role. 

The Chairman. But you don't know how important? 

Mr. Foster. No. I don't think it played any considerable role. 

The Chairman. Do you have any independent recollection of it? 
Can yon say whether it was used in that campaign or was not? 

Mr. Foster. It certainly did not play, if it was used at all 

The Chairman. I am not asking that. I say, of your own inde- 
pendent recollection, can you say whether it was used in that cam- 
paign or not? If you cannot say so, say you don't remember. 

Mr. Foster. I don't recollect it being used to any extent, if it was 
used at all. 

The Chairman. Well, do you remember its being used at all? 

Mr. Foster. Xo. 

The Chairman. All right, that is an answer. 

Mr. Matthews. Then I want to ask this question : Is it not a regular 
practice of the Communist Party, when it engages in a political strug- 
gle with an opponent, to circulate vicious, vituperative, malicious 
stories, without checking on them, concerning the political opponents? 

Mr. Foster. I will say there has been more vituperative and mali- 
cious stories circulated in this committee against the Communist 
Party than we have circulated in our entire existence. 

The Chairman. Now. wait a minute. He has asked a question, and 
you can answer "yes'' or "no," if it is or is not true. 

Mr. Foster. The answer is "no." 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Foster, does the Communist Party of the 
United States have to get permission of the Comintern, the executive 
committee of the Comintern, to hold a national convention or plenum? 

Mr. Foster. Xo. 



5420 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Did it ever have to get such permission? 

Mr. F'oster. It may have consulted them about it. 

The Chairman. Let us get it down definite : Do you know whether 
it did or not ? 

Mr. Foster. So far as I know, not. 

The Chairman. He says "No." 

Mr. Matthews. All right ; Mr. Foster has already identified this 
document as one in which he participated in drawing up. This is 
"'Decisions of Workers' Party Central Executive Committee," pub- 
lished in the Daily Worker of October 15, 1924. It reads, on the sub- 
ject of Party Convention : 

The C. E. C. (central executive committee) authorized a request to the Com- 
munist International for permission to hold an annual convention of the workers' 
party sometime during the month of January. 

Now, was that true, or wasn't it ? 

Mr. Foster. It was true in this sense, that we proposed 

The Chairman. "Yes" "or "no"? 

Mr. Foster. Well, Mr. Chairman, these things and what happened 
in connection with them is not just a sentence on a piece of paper. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; but did they ask permission, or did not they 
ask permission of the Comintern to hold such a meeting? 

Mr. Foster. We proposed to the Comintern in such circumstances, 
in every instance I ever heard of, we proposed that a convention be 
held and advised the Communist International of the formulation, 
we will say. It is more or less a curious way of presenting the 
proposition. 

The Chairman. Let us get that right : Why would you propose to 
the Comintern in Moscow to hold a convention here in this country? 

Mr. Foster. Well, as a matter of organizational procedure, you 
understand, any organization notifies the headquarters about holding 
a convention. 

The Chairman. You say any organization notifies its headquar- 
ters — its central organization ? 

Mr. Foster. We are affiliated with the Comintern, of course 

The Chairman. And you have either to obey the Comintern or get 
out of it, don't you ? 

Mr. Foster. Well, that is true of any organization. 

The Chairman. Well, is it true of the Communist organization ? 

Mr. Foster. It is true of any organization in the world. 

The Chairman. Well, is it true of the Communist organization? 

Mr. Foster. If the Comintern said we were violating its instructions, 
they would put us out. 

The Chairman. I am asking you a simple question ; let us have no 
evasion about it. Is it true of the Communist Party that you either 
have to obey the decisions or get out? 

Mr. Foster. We don't allow a situation 

The Chairman. Is that true or not? 

Mr. Foster. I have stated what the character of the Comintern deci- 
sions is in regard to America. Those proposals are put forward by 
the American party; and if the Comintern puts forward any deci- 
sions, the American party votes on them. Whether it acts or not 

The Chairman. Suppose, now, the American party refused to 
accept the Comintern's decision? 

Mr. Foster. I don't know what the Comintern would do. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 542] 

The Chairman. Do not you know, as a matter of fact, the Ameri- 
can party would have to get out of the International if they did not 
obey tin- decision of the Comintern? 

Mr. Foster. I assume in every organization in the world 

The Chairman. I am not asking you about every organization 5 
I am asking you about the Communist International. 

Mr. Foster. Well, I assume so. 

The Chairman. You assume so? 

Mr. Foster. Although it has never happened. 

The Chairman. Although you are sure of the fact 

Mr. Foster. It has never happened yet. 

Mr. Voorhis. Put it this way : If the American Communist Party 
refused to go along with a decision of the Communist International, 
then would it be true, along with all other organizations in the 
world, that the American Communist Party would have to get out 
of the Communist International? 

Mr. Foster. I don't think you can state a thing like that at all. 
Before the Comintern would ever disassociate itself with the Ameri- 
can party, there would be endless discussions over the question — 
endless discussions and attempts to adjust the thing. 

Mr. Voorhis. Put it this way, Mr. Foster: Could the American 
Communist Party remain in affiliation with the Comintern if there 
was any disagreement with the Comintern on an important matter 
of policy i 

Mr. Foster. I don't think it would want to remain in affiliation. 

The Chairman. He is not asking you what you would want. 
Should the American party 

Mr. Foster. Any party that could not agree with the central 
organization 



The Chairman. We are not asking about any party ; we are asking 
you specifically about the Communist Party. Cannot you answer 
that ? 

Mr. Foster. That is another one of those hypothetical questions. 

The Chairman. Hypothetical? 

Mr. Foster. AVe will cross that bridge when we come to it. 

The Chairman. You never have come to a question of disagree- 
ment between the Communist Party and the Communist Inter- 
national \ 

Mr. Foster. Oh. we have had disagreements in the Comintern; 
yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. But they have always been resolved 

Mr. Foster. By the American party; yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. In favor of the decision of the Comintern, however? 
Never in conflict '. 

Mr. Foster. Which in every instance, I said, has been presented by 
the American people — in every instance, or the majority — in every 
instance 

Mi'. Voorhis. But the decision finally in every case has been in 
accord with the wishes of the Communist International ( 

Mr. Foster. Otherwise we would not be affiliated with it. 

Mr. Voorhis. That is what I am trying to get at. 

The Chairman. You are talking about hypothetical cases: you 
mean by that that there has never been an instance of a disagreement 
between the American Communist Party and the Communist Inter- 



5422 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

national in which eventually, ultimately, the American party did not 
finally resolve the question in favor of the Communist International? 

Mr. Foster. No ; because, as I stated many times, before the Com- 
munist International would take any stand on any American ques- 
tion, it would have to be entirely certain that the entire party was 
in agreement with it. 

The Chairman. As chairman of the Communist Party of the 
United States, if the United States entered this present war — which 
you say is an imperialistic war — on the side of France and England, 
would the Communist Party support the United States Government? 

Mr. Foster. First of all, the Communist Party would take up the 
question and discuss it and would take a stand accordingly. 

The Chairman. What is your opinion as chairman of the Com- 
munist Party; would it support the United States Government? 

Mr. Foster. I stated 

The Chairman. You stated your personal opinion. 

Mr. Foster. I stated my personal opinion, and I would certainly 
advocate that in the party. 

The Chairman. And you think that would prevail, don't you? 

Mr. Foster. Well, we would see. 

The Chairman. Well, if it did not prevail, it would be the first 
time in which the Communist Party did not follow the party line? 

Mr. Foster. It would not be the first time it did not follow my 
line. 

The Chairman. I am not asking you about "your line"; I am talk- 
ing about the party line. 

Mr. Foster. It would not be the party line until they adopted it ; 
just because I advocated it would not make it the party line. 

The Chairman. I understand that ; but I say if they did not follow 
the party line, it would be the first time they did not do so? 

Mr. Foster. After they work out the party line, they would follow 
it, of course. 

The Chairman. That party line has to be worked out by the Comin- 
tern, as well as the Communist Party of the United States, don't it? 

Mr. Foster. No; the American party would settle that question. 

The Chairman. Independent of the Comintern ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes; independent of the Comintern. 

The Chairman. Have you ever settled any question regarding the 
party line independent of the Comintern? 

Mr. Foster. Tens of thousands. 

The Chairman. Independent of the Comintern? 

Mr. Foster. Independent, of course; every day; every day, on every 
question that comes along, we make settlements. 

The Chairman. Every day — can you cite a single instance where 
any decision of the Communist Party finally taken has conflicted with 
the decision of the Comintern ? 

Mr. Foster. Well, no; I cannot — no major decision. 

The Chairman. You know, as a matter of fact, there never has 
been such a decision, don't you ? 

Mr. Foster. As far as the party getting into conflict generally, you 
saw on the question of Lovestone's leadership they came into conflict 
with the Comintern. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5423 

The Chaibman. And they were liquidated? 

Mr. Foster. By the action of the American party. The Comintern 
said they were politically incorrect. 

The Chairman. The question I asked you is, Can you cite a single 
instance in which the American Communist Party has ever agreed 
upon any decision in conflict with the Communist International? 

Mr. Foster. I just gave you one — the Lovestone leadership took a 
decision in opposition to the Communist International. 

The Chairman. But you said a while ago that Lovestone did not 
represent the Communist Party. 

Mr. Foster. Hut he represented a majority of the Central Com- 
mittee. 

The Chairman. But you said the overwhelming majority of the 
members were with you? 

Mr. Foster. Xot at the time, perhaps, we took this decision. It 
was as the fight developed that we saw the correctness of the political 
decision that we arrived at. 

The Chairman. In other words, it was a case of a majority — you 
cited one instance to show independent action — here w T as the case of 
a majoritv headed by Lovestone that did not follow the Communist 
International, is it not? 

Mr. Foster. That is right. 

The Chairman. But is it not a fact that Lovestone and his crowd 
were driven out — expelled from the Communist Party for doing 
that \ 

Mr. Foster. By 98 percent of the membership. 

The Chairman. But they were expelled? 

Mr. Foster. That is a matter of history. 

The Chairman. It is the only instance you can cite in which the 
Communist Party took a contrary position to the Comintern and, as 
a result of it, those who led the contrary opinion were purged from 
the partyt? 

Mr. Foster. By the American party, of course. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Brodsky. Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Foster has about ex- 
hausted his physical reserve. My knowledge of him is that 2 hours 
is about the limit he will go. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you think he can take one more question on 
this subject, that will wind it up? 

Mr. Foster. Please. 

Mr. Matthews. You just stated Mr. Lovestone was expelled by 
the American Communist Party. Is it not true he carried an appeal 
against that expulsion to the Executive Committee of the Com- 
munist International and that Executive Committee of the Commu- 
nist International was the final body, through the International Con- 
trol Commission, which passed upon the case '. 

Mr. Foster. Xot correct. 

Mr. Matthews. In the Dailv Worker of July 29, 1929, ''Decision 
of the tenth plenum of the E. C. C. I. on the appeal of Love- 
tone'" 

Mr. Foster. You asked me if the International Control Commis- 
sion. That is not the International Control Commission. 



5424 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. I have not finished reading; it to yon, Mr. Foster. 

Decision of the tenth plenum of the Executive Committee of the Communist 
International on the appeal of Jay Lovestone, member of the E. C. C. I., against 
his expulsion from the Communist Party of the United States of America. 

At the end of the article it reads: "Notification of International 
Control Commission," on his expulsion. Now are yon satisfied? 

Mr. Foster. So what ? 

Mr. Matthews. Then yonr answer was wrong? 

Mr. Foster. My answer was correct. 

Mr. Matthews*. Did Lovestone carry an appeal to Moscow? 

Mr. Foster. Not to the International Control Commission. He 
carried an appeal to the Executive Committee of the Communist In- 
ternational, and the position of the Executive Committee of the Com- 
munist International was that the American Party had acted upon 
it and that settled it. 

Mr. Matthews. What is the International Control Commission? 

Mr. Foster. The International Control Commission is a body that 
looks after the status of the organization one way or another. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it not the supreme court of the Comintern that 
passes upon cases of expulsion where appeals are brought to it ? 

Mr. Foster. That is it. 

Mr. Matthews. Then the International Control Commission was 
the supreme court before which Lovestone's appeal went, was it not ? 

Mr. Foster. This was a political question, not a personal question. 

Mr. Matthews. Then why did the International Control Commis- 
sion issue a notification on the case as set forth in the Daily Worker? 

Mr. Foster. Because Lovestone had some personal matters with 
them. This was a political question and fell within the jurisdiction 
of the Executive Committee. 

Mr. Matthews. You just stated the International Control Com- 
mission was the supreme court of the Comintern, precisely as the 
Executive Committee of the Communist International is the execu- 
tive body? 

Mr. Foster. But not politically, it is not ; it only functions in per- 
sonal cases, and Lovestone's expulsion was not a personal matter, it 
was a political matter. 

Mr. Matthews. Does the International Control Commission ever 
pass upon both personal and political questions? 

Mr. Foster. Sometimes they are interwoven. 

Mr. Matthews. Have not there been cases of drunkenness brought 
before the International Control Commission? 

Mr. Foster. That is the kind of questions they particularly handle. 

Mr. Matthews. And have not there also been deviation questions 
brought before the International Control Commission for adjudica- 
tion ? 

Mr. Foster. Well, I am not familiar with the workings of the 
committee in detail; but, generally speaking, it is a personal ap- 
proach, and sometimes political angles exist. 

Mr. Matthews. I read you just briefly from the Communist In- 
ternational, an official document of the Communist Party, between 
the Fifth and Sixth World Congresses, 1924 and 1928, 'under the 
chapter "International Control Commission": 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5425 

The International Control Commission received no complaints during the period 
of the report concerning activities of 1 1 1 * > Department of E. C. C. 1. it did 
receive about 190 complaints concerning displinary measures taken by the sec- 
tions against individuals, or against organizations. 

And among these L90 eases are listed embezzlement, drink, unde- 
sirable elements; reinstatement of members expelled, mostly for 
reasons of embezzlement: transference from one section to another; 
opposition: slander; violation of discipline; estrangement from party 
work: participation in white army: religious: political dishonesty; 
reinstatement of the expelled; nonseparative work in fractions in 
other organizations; financial; miscellaneous and indefinite. 

The Chairman. Now. here is the question we have to have an 
answer to, and I don't think it will take very long, and it will avoid 
your staying over here until tomorrow morning. 

Mr. Brodsky. O. K. 

Mr. Foster. All right. 

The Chairman. You know the occasion that Mr. Browder testified 
before this committee, don't you? 

Air. Foster. I know he testified. 

The Chairman. And do you know anything about what his testi- 
mony was? 

Mr. Foster. Not in detail. 

The Chairman. Generally, did you understand what his testimony 
was ? 

Mr. Foster. Some of it. I did not discuss it with him in detail. I 
read the newspaper reports of it. 

The Chairman. Are you in accord with what he had to say 
before this committee, so far as you know? 

Mr. Foster. Well, that is pretty hard to say. 

The Chairman. I mean insofar as the matters you know he testified 
about I 

Mr. Foster. I certainly did not see anything I was in disagreement 
with. 

The Chairman. I see. Well, he is in a position to speak for the 
Communist Party, is he not ? 

Mr. Foster. That is right ; he is our principal spokesman. 

The Chairman. He is your principal spokesman and it therefore 
stands to reason that whatever statement he made would be the correct 
statement ; is not that true — insofar as the party is concerned? 

Mr. Foster. Well, he can make errors in fact, like anyone else. 

The Chairman. But generally speaking, for the most part, his state- 
ments would lie correct statements, would they not? 

Mr. Foster. Generally; yes. 

The Chairman. And from him you would get a correct enunciation 
of the position of the Communist Party; is that not correct? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

The Chairman. All right. Now. the Communist Party, as I under- 
stand it. has about 5.000 branches in the United States. 

Mr. Foster. Something like that. I am not familiar with the 
figures: I am not individually 

The Chairman. You know it has approximately 5,000 branches; is 
that correct \ 



5426 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Foster. Several thousand. I know about the figures that have 
been presented here ; I don't know what it is. 

The Chairman. I think Mr. Browder said 5,000. 

Mr. Brodskt. That is my recollection, that he said 5,000. 

The Chairman. That would be correct, would it not, if he said 5,000? 

Mr. Foster. Well, he would know. 

The Chairman. He knows what he is talking about? 

Mr. Foster. He would know. 

The Chairman. Do you know what the membership of the party is? 
Mi-. Browder said 100,000. Would that be correct ? 

Mr. Foster. That is what we call our membership, approximately 
100.000. 

The Chairman. Mr. Browder was also correct in saying, was he, 
that you had no record in the national offices of the membership? 

Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

The Chairman. But you have a record, according to Mr. Browder, 
of the officers in the district organizations? 

Mr. Foster. That is it. 

The Chairman. That is correct, is it ? 

Mr. Foster. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In other words, I am trying to understand the 
organization of the party. As I understand it, the party is divided 
into sections and then into districts, and then you have the national 
organization? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

Mr. Brodsky. Below the section is the branches. 

The Chairman. Yes ; that is right ; below the sections are branches 
of sections, or districts. Now, the national offices, you just stated, has 
the names of the officers in the district organizations, but does not have 
the names of the officers of the section or branch organizations? Is 
that correct ? 

Mr. Foster. That I could not say. I am not familiar with the or- 
ganizational work. It is out of my sphere. 

The Chairman. You just stated, I believe — you stated very defi- 
nitely that you did have the names of the what — district organization? 

Mr. Foster. Of the district organizers; that we have. 

The Chairman. But you do not know whether you have it of the 
branches, or sections ? 

Mr. Foster. On the branches, I am sure we have not got it ; on the 
sections, I am not so certain. 

The Chairman. You are not sure of the sections, but you are 
sure on the branches? 

Mr. Foster. Yes. 

The Chairman. Now, in each branch there are officers, are there 
not? 

Mr. Foster. That is right. 

The Chairman. What are the names of the officers — president, or 
chairman? 

Mr. Foster. No ; secretaries. They don't have any president — they 
are secretaries and bureau organizers, and so on. 

The Chairman. Secretaries and bureau organizers? 

Mr. Foster. We can send you a complete 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5427 

Mr. Brodsky. T am going to look at the constitution. I think they 
have something here about the organization, and maybe that will 
give you what you are after. "Structure of the Party" — 1 think 
perhaps this will help you. This is article VII: 

STRUCTURE OF THE PARTY 

Section !. The basic organization of the Communist Party of the United 
Staler of America are the shop, industrial, and territorial branches. 

The Chairman. That is the branches? 
Mr. Brodsky. Yes. 

The executive committee of the branch shall be elected once a year by the 
membership. 

The Chairman. The executive committee of the branch? 
Mr. Brodsky. Yes. 

Sec. 2. The section organization shall comprise all branches in a given terri- 
tory of the city or State. 

The Chairman. All branches in a given territory? 
Mr. Brodsky. Yes [reading] : 

The section territory shall be defined by the higher party com- 
mittee and shall cover one or more complete political divisions of the city 
or Stare. 

The highest body of the section organization is the section convention, or 
special annual council meeting, called for the election of officers, which shall 
coiivcu;' every year. The section convention or special council meeting dis- 
cusses and decides on policy and elects delegates to the higher convention. 

Between section conventions, the highest party body in the section organiza- 
tion is the section council, composed of delegates elected proportionately from 
each branch for a period of 1 year. Where no section council exists, the highest 
party body is the section committee, elected by a majority vote of the section 
convention, which also elects the section organizer. 

The section council or section committee may elect a section executive com- 
mittee which is responsible to the body that elected it. Nonmembers of the 
section council may be elected to the executive committee only with the ap- 
proval of the next higher committee. 

Sec. 3. In localities where there is more than one section organization, a city 
or county council or committee may be formed in accordance with the bylaws. 

Sec. 4. The State organization shall comprise all partv organizations in one 
State. 

The highest body of the State organization is the State convention, which 
shall convene every 2 years, and shall be composed of delegates elected by 
the conventions of the subdivisions of the party or branches in the State. The 
delegates are elected on the basis of numerical strength. 

A State committee 

There is not much more of it. Do you want me to continue? 
The Chairman. No. That gives the State and then the district — 
where is the district 1 

Mr. Brodsky. That is the last section. This goes on : 

A State committee of regular and alternate members shall be elected at the 
State convention with full power to carry out the decisions of the convention 
and conduct the activities of the State organization until the next State 
convention. 

The State committee may elect from among its members an executive com- 
mittee, which shall lie responsible to the State committee. 

Special State conventions may he called either by a majority vote of the 
State committee, or upon written request of the branches representing one-third 
of the membership of the State, with the approval of the national committee. 



5428 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Sec. 5. District organizations may be established by the national committee, 
covering two or more States. In such cases the State committees shall be 
under the jurisdiction of the district committees, elected by and representing 
the party organizations of the States composing these districts. The rules of 
convening district conventions and the election of leading committees shall be 
the same as those provided for the State organization. 

Then it goes on to the national organization. 

The Chairman. In other words, as I remember Mr. Browder's 
testimony, the only names that the national organization has are the 
officers of the executive committee and the district officers? 

Mr. Brodsky. That is as I understand the testimony, and each one 
in turn has the names below. 

The Chairman. And the district has the names of the one below ? 
Mr. Brodsky. That is as I understand his testimony. 
The Chairman. Now, do you have any objection to submitting to 
this committee the names of all the officers and members of "the 
executive committee, of the district organizations? 

Mr. Brodsky. Well, I personally have no objection, or any feeling 
about it. 

The Chairman. As attorney for them, do you have any objection 
to that? 

Mr. Brodsky. I personally cannot see any objection. I will be glad 
to take it up with the national office and present that question to 
them, if you want. 

The Chairman. Is that your opinion ? 
Mr. Brodsky. Yes; I will take the matter up, also. 
The Chairman. As I understand, that is all the information you 
have in your national offices, as to any officers or members, or any- 
thing else ; is that correct ? 
Mr. Foster. That is correct. 

The Chairman. You just do not know who the members of the 
party are? 

Mr. Foster. Not at all. 

The Chairman. Only as you might meet them in various meetings? 
Mr. Foster. Only in the branch that I belong to. 
The Chairman. Only in the branch that you belong to : Do you 
not go around from one branch to another ? 
Mr. Foster. No. 

The Chairman. How many branches have you visited? 
Mr. Foster. I visit them very rarely, because I have been laid up 
and do not get around. 

The Chairman. Who makes the visits around to the branches? 
Mr. Foster. The organizers; the secretaries, the district and sec- 
tion people. 

The Chairman. I see. Then the committee is asking you to sub- 
mit, as soon as possible, the names of all the members of the execu- 
tive committee, of the district organization and, if you have them in 
your office the names of any of the officers or committeemen of any 
section or any branch, we ask you to submit that information; 
because this committee is going to issue subpenas to all organiza- 
tions, whether Communist or Fascist, Bund, or Silver Shirts, and 
have every organization to bring to this committee a correct list of 
the membership. And failing in that, the committee is going to 
make a test of it as to all organizations. I tell you that so that if 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5429 

they will not submit those names ami addresses to us frankly, the 
purpose is to serve a subpena on them duces tecum to bring their 
membership lists to this committee. 

Mr. Brodskt. I shall deliver that message. 

Mr. Foster. Mr. Chairman, could I suggest that Father Coughlhvs 
name should be added to this list? 

The Chairman. We are going to name everybody there is any 
evidence they are either Fascist or Communist, to the full extent 
of the power of this committee. 

Mr. Foster. And the Associated Farmers? 

The Chairman. We are going to have their membership lists 
brought before the committee. 

Now. are there any further questions that you have? 

Mr. Whitlev. I would suggest that the witness be kept under 
subpena. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, he is not under subpena; you just requested 
him to come, and if he is willing to continue that status 

Mr. Brodsky. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, I would like for him to remain at 
least where he can be recalled at anytime. 

Mr. Brodsky. You had no difficulty; he did it on the telegram, 
and he will do it again. 

The Chairman. That is all right. 

Mr. Whitley. I had in mind he may be in some other part of the 
country, or out of rhe country, several weeks from now, if we want 
him. 

Mr. Foster. No. 

The Chairman. You have no such plans, have you, Mr. Foster? 

Mr. Foster. No. 

The Chairman. I do not suppose there is anything you can add 
to the statements of Mr. Browder? Mr. Browder said approximately 
50.000 Communists are members of trade-unions — twice as many in 
the C. I. O. as in the A. F. of L — and hundreds of the Communists 
were officers and directors. Since you don't know anything about 
the proposition, you could not add anything to his testimony; is that 
right \ 

Mr. Foster. No; I could not. 

Mr. Whitley. Well, he understands the request? 

Mr. Brodsky. He wants to make a statement. 

Mr. Foster. I would like to say 

The Chairman. Is there anything further? 

Mr. Foster. I would like to say that the weight of this committee's 
activities has been directed against our party. 

The Chairman. That is what they all say. 

Mr. Foster. That is a very important question, and our opinion 
is that this committee is not attacking the institutions that are carry- 
ing on un-American activities in the country. 

The Chairman. That is what Pel ley, Kuhn, Deatherage, and the 
others say. They all say the same thing. 

Mr. Foster. It is correct. 

The Chairman. When it comes to the Nazi Government and Soviet 
pact 



5430 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Foster (interposing). I would like to add Mr. Ford's name, 
the name of Father Coughlin, and the Associated Farmers. 

The Chairman. Is there anything else? 

Mr. Foster. Your committee is looking for evidence of people who 
are carrying on un-American activities 

The Chairman (interposing). You and your party will submit 
the lists that have been called for by the committee to this Congress, 
or the issue will be squarely made on it, with the demand that your 
party be dissolved and outlawed, as it has been in France, and as 
it will be throughout the world before we are through. (Loud 
applause from the audience.) 

(Thereupon, the committee adjourned to meet tomorrow, Saturday, 
September 30, 1939, at 10 a. m.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



saturday, september 30, 1939 

House of Representativi s. 
Special Committee to Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. C. 
The committee met at 10 a. m., in the Caucus Room, House Office 
Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding. 
Present : Messrs, Dies, Voorhis, and Mason. 
Also present: Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee. 

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH ZACK, GARMENT WORKER 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Joseph Zack is the first witness. 

The Chairman. Mr. Zack, you will be sworn. 

(The witness was sworn by the chairman.) 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack. have you been known by the name of 
Joseph Zack for many years '. 

Mr. Zack. Right. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that your mother's name? 

Mr. Zack. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you born under the name of Joseph Korn- 
fedder ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And that is the name that appeared on your birth 
certificate \ 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And that was your father's name? 

Mr. Zack. Right. 

Mr. AVhiti ey. What is your present address, Mr. Zack? 

Mr. Zack. 1001 St. Nicholas Avenue, New York. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your occupation? 

Mr. Zack. Garment worker. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you married in New York City? 

Mr. Zack. I was. 

Mr. Whitley. What year? 

Mi'. Zack. L926. 

The Chairman. Will you speak a little louder and more distinct 
please I 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you have any children? 

Mr. Zack. I have a son. 

94 >::i 39 v ,,i. '.1 12 5431 



5432 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. When and where was he born? 

Mr. Zack. In 1927, 1 believe, in New York City. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zaek. when did yon first become active in politics 
in the United States? 

Mr. Zack. In 1916. 

Mr. Whitley. And in what party or group did yon become active 
at that time ? 

Mr. Zack. I was a member of the Socialist Party, and I joined the 
Communist Party at the time the party was first organized, in 1919. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, yon are a charter member of the 
Communist Party? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. And where were yon at the time the split of the 
Communist Party took place? 

Mr. Zack. New York City. 

Mr. Whitley. Did yon, after joining the Communist Party, or 
becoming a charter member of it at the time, become an active Com- 
munist worker? 

Mr. Zack. I did. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack, from the time the Communist Party was 
formed until the fall of 1934, did you devote practically all of your 
time and energies and abilities to Communist Party work in New York 
City and elsewhere? 

Mr. Zack. Well, most of the time. I was not all the time an officer. 
I worked in my trade off and on, and about half that time I was an 
official of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Whitley. Full-time official ? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

The Chairman. At what time, Mr. Whitley? 

Mr. Whitley. From 1919, when the party was formed, up until 
the fall of 1934. 

The Chairman. In 1934; down to about that time you devoted half 
of your time as an officer, a full-time officer? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

The Chairman. As a party officer ( 

Mr. Zack. Right. 

Mr. Whitley. And at one time he was working at his trade and 
doing work for the party. 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

The Chairman. All right, 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack, were you indicted in Michigan in 192*2 
or 1923 under the Michigan syndicalism law? 

Mr. Zack. Correct, 

Mr. Whitley. That was for radical Communist activities? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. The party was underground at that time. 
I was arrested in connection with the convention that was held in 
Michigan. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, Mr. William Z. Foster was one of the 15 or 
20 others who were arrested with yon ? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. And during the period that you were active as an 
official and functionary in the Communist Party did you devote a 
good part, or a major part of your time to trade-union work of 
the party? 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5433 

Mr. Zack. Yes. I held various leading positions in the Communist 
Party which related to its activities in trade-unions. First, I was 
their national trade-union secretary, the same position that Foster 
held after me, and T was also their trade-union director in the New 
York district, and secretary of the Trade Union Unity League in 
the eastern disf rict. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack. as secretary of the trade-union work 
throughout the country that meant you were actively in charge and 
directed the Communist Party's trade-union work and policies 
throughout the United States? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack. were you ever a member of any of the 
higher governing bodies of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. I started as Unity secretary, then became section 
organizer and district organizer in the New York district, and then 
I was a member, three times, of the central committee of the Com- 
munist Party, now known as the national committee. 

Mr. "Whitley. For approximately how many years were you on 
the central committee of the highest governing body of the Com- 
munist Party '. 

Mr. Zack. I was on the central committee I believe about 5 years. 

Mr. Whitley. About 5 years altogether. 

Mr. Zack. did you come — rather did the central committee of the 
Communist Party of the United States send you to Moscow during 
1!)L>7^ 

Mr. Zack. They did. 

Mr. Whitley. And Mr. Lovestone who was then the general secre- 
tary of the party in this country furnished your credentials? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. And who paid for your traveling and other ex- 
penses for that trip while you were there? 

Mr. Zack. The traveling and other expenses were paid by the 
Comintern, that is the Communist International, in Moscow. 

Mr. Whitley. I see; that is the headquarters of the Communists 
throughout the world? 

Mr.' Zack. Right. 

Mr. Whitley. How long did you remain in Moscow, Mr. Zack? 

Mr. Zack. I remained in Moscow 2y 2 years. 

Mr. Whii ley. That would be to about 1930? 

Mr. Zack. 1930. 

Mr. Whitley. And what were your functions while you were in 
Moscow \ 

Mr. Zack. Well, I was sent there to study in the Lenin Institute, 
but at the same time I represented what was then known as the 
Foster faction of the Communist Party in the Comintern; that is, I 
was representing what is now the leadership in Moscow. While I 
was there for '1 years I was a member of the Anglo-American secre- 
tariat of the Communist International, and also of the Anglo-Amer- 
ican Second Red Trade Union International. 

Mr. Whitley. And at that time you were active in the Comintern 
and the R. I. L. U.? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

Mi-. Whitley. While you were there? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 



5434 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack, did the Communist International or the 
Comintern then send you on a mission to South America? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. I was a delegate of the Comintern in South Amer- 
ica from 1930 to the end of 1931. 

Mr. Whitley. When you left Moscow on that mission to South 
America for the Comintern did you leave your wife and son in 
Russia ? 

Mr. Zack. I did. 

Mr. Whitley. How long did you remain in South America, did 
you state, Mr. Zack? 

Mr. Zack. I believe a year and a half. 

Mr. Whitley. During that time did you have any difficulty with 
the authorities in South" America as a result of your work? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; I was arrested in Venezuela. 

Mr. Whitley. What was the result of that arrest? 

Mr. Zack. Well. I was imprisoned in the prison known as Lori 
Rotunda and was freed by the efforts of the State Department. 

Mr. Whitley. That is in the United States? 

Mr. Z\ck. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And that arrest and imprisonment was the result 
of your activities on behalf of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. On behalf of the Communist International rather V 

Mr. Zack. Correct, 

Mr. Whitley. When did you return to New York City from South 
America, approximately, Mr. Zack? 

Mr. Zack. In the fall of 1931. 

Mr. Whitley. And then did you become active in party affairs? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. In New York City ? 

Mr. Zack. I did. 

Mr. Whitley. And in what capacity or in what field? 

Mr. Zack. I became secretary of the Trade Union Unity League, 
which at that time was the Communist Party Trade Union organiza- 
tion in New York City. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Zack. And around about. 

Mr. Whitley. And during that time did vou reside in the same 
apartment with Mr. Earl Browder? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; at that time I resided in the same apartment with 
him for 4 months. 

Mr. Whitley. And then you later were doing trade-union organ- 
ization work, were you, in Ohio and the Middle West for a while? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. I was trade-union secretary in Ohio. 

Mr. Whitley. When were you expelled from the party, Mr. Zack? 

Mr. Zack. I broke with the Communist Party in the spring of 1934, 
and they announced my expulsion about 4 or 5 months later. 

Mr. Whitley. And your break was occasioned by what? 

Mr. Zack. My break was occasioned by the new turn of policy from 
ultra-left to ultra-right, I had suspicioned for some time before that 
the changes in policy have nothing to do with conditions in the United 
States and were motivated by the policy of the Russian Government, 
Hence, I considered their new sweeping changes of policy one more of 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5435 

the principal tricks, and I was not willing to go along with it any 
further. 

Mr. Whitley. As a result of this difference of opinion, your failure 
to comply or agree with the change in policy, your were expelled? 

Mr. Zack. Well, I had already broken with them. 

Mr. Whitley. There is no such thing as a resignation from the 
Communist Party? 

Mr. Zack. No. You can quit the party, and if you are of importance 
they will announce your expulsion in the Daily Worker. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

The Chairm \n. This is the first time you have ever told this story 
before any committee? 

Mr. Whitley. You have never testified before any committee? 

Mr. Zack. Correct ; I never testified before any committee. 

The Chairman. This is the first time you have ever given any full 
disclosure '. 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Of these facts? 

Mr. Zack. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read an excerpt from 
the Communist, the official organ of the Communist Party of the 
United States, in the issue for July 1932, an excerpt from an article 
entitled "Place the Party on a War Footing." 

The author of that article is Earl Browder, and on page 601 of that 
article Mr. Browder states as follows: 

Comrade Zack gives a very rich and fruitful discussion and demonstrates 
again in his speech that he is one of the most reliable and productive workers, 
an essential part of the leadership of the party. 

Mr. Zack. have you. during the 15 years that you were active in the 
Communist Party, and for the Comintern, written articles which have 
been published in Soviet publications? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. I wrote a number of articles that were published 
in the chief organ of the Communist International, and also in the 
chief organ of the Communist Party in the United States. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Did yon at one time coauthor an article with 
Mr. Browder which was published in one of the Comintern publica- 
tions \ 

Mr. Zack. Yes. There was an article published under our joint 
name in the Pravda. the official organ of the Russian Communist 
Party. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, by way of identification of Mr. Zack, 
I would like to refer to a few articles which have appeared in official 
publications: The Daily Worker March 1, 1933, page 4, has a lengthy 
article by J. Zack. entitled "The Trade Unions in New York and the 
Unemployed." 

With reference to Mr. Zack's statement concerning his arrest along 
with Mr. Poster for radical work in Michigan, there are a number of 
articles appearing in official publications of the Communist Party. 

The Chairman. I understand Mr. Zack was particularly active in 
the trade-union movement. 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

The Chairman. Was from the start? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 



5436 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. You were really head of it ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. And of course you met all of the different people 
who were active in the Communist Party at that time? 

Mr. Zack. I did. 

The Chairman. And you pretty well know, or have known since 
the beginning, those who have been actively identified in the C. I. O. 
or with the A. F. of L. ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes ; I know most of them. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Whitley. 

Mr. Whitley. In the Daily Worker for April 7, 1923. is an article 
entitled "International Committee in Action," by Earl R. Browder. 

The article has to do with some very important committees of an 
international character, which have been appointed, and one of 
those committees, international committees, was the T. U. E. L., 
that is, the Trade Union Educational League, and Mr. Joseph Zack 
is listed as a secretary. 

There are a number of other articles in reference to Mr. Zack's 
activities on behalf of the party. Among those articles is one by 
Mr. Zack himself as contributor to the publication, showing that 
over a period of years he has written articles for the Communist 
Party. 

In the monthly publication for December 1929 an article entitled 
"Against Labor Party." 

Another article in the January 1930 issue in the Communist ; an- 
other article in the issue of March 1930 in the Communist, entitled 
"The Era of Partnership." 

A number of other articles which I will not read at the present 
time, Mr. Chairman, and which we can put in the record later if it 
is found desirable to do so. 

Before we go into these publications or writings, Mr. Zack, I 
would like for you to explain to the committee or relate to them 
your efforts to get your wife and son out of Soviet Russia. 

Mr. Chairman, the witness previously testified when the Comintern 
sent him out, in 1930, I believe it was, on a mission to South America 
that he left his wife and young son in Russia. He has never been 
able to get them out of Russia since that time. 

Will you relate that to the committee, Mr. Zack? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. When I left Russia in the spring of 1930 my wife 
and my boy remained there. My boy was born in New York. 

After I returned from South America I made efforts through 
Browder, the general secretary, who was then going over for one of 
his visits to Russia, to arrange for their return. He promised to do 
that. That was in 1932. but nothing came of it. 

And in 1934, when I quit the party, I made another effort. Noth- 
ing came of that. So finally I made a complaint to the State De- 
partment to intervene in behalf of my family over there, and help 
me to have them returned to the United States. 

At the same time I received a letter from Russia written by my 
wife, but apparently from a concentration camp, because that letter 
was deposited in my mail box, not by the post office but by an agent, 
and all identification marks, as to the location from which it was 
mailed, were eliminated. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5437 

The text of the letter was of a kind as to make me believe that the 
Letter Mas dictated. 

Later on I saw one of the tourists, a friend of mine, who had visited 
the place where she worked on a farm in the Crimea sect ion of Rus- 
sia and he was told that she had disappeared from the farm at the 
end of L936, and no explanation was given as to where she dis- 
appeared. 

A law was passed in Russia authorizing the government to arrest 
relatives of political opponents. That law was passed in 1934. It 
was not applied to foreign Communists at that time. It was only 
applied to Russian Communists, but since 1935 and 1936, in particu- 
lar, they have been applying that law also to relatives of foreign 
( Jommunists that happened to live in Russia at the time. 

Tiic State Department took action on the matter in December of 
1938 hut with no results thus far. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, Mr. Zack 

Mr. Zack (continuing). My wife and child are held in this case 
as hostages, expecting good behavior on my part as a result of that, 
hut 1 have tired of trying to cash in on the promises in this case on 
the part of Stalin. 

I do not expect any better treatment, or worse treatment for my 
family whether I tell about the manipulations or not, so I have 
made up my mind that it is my duty to fight this kind of a move- 
ment and disregard their efforts to keep my family as hostages. 

The Chairman. I think you are to be congratulated Mr. Zack, for 
that resolution. It shows a lot of courage on your part. That is the 
onlv way we can get the facts, when men like you, who have been in 
the movement and are fully acquainted with its activities and ma- 
nipulations come here. It is natural that we are not going to get any 
facts from Browder or Foster: they are going to tell us as little as 
they can unless they are confronted by documentary evidence of a 
character they cannot evade. 

Mr. Zack. You are correct on that. 

The Chairman. And we do not want anything but the truth. 
However, we only want the facts from you. 

Mr. AVhitley. Mr. Zack, as you previously testified, your son was 
born in New York and is an American citizen. 

Mr. Zack. Right. 

Mr. Whitley. And your repeated efforts to get your wife and son 
back to this country have all been fruitless to date? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. And the only conclusion you can put on that situa- 
tion is that they are being held as hostages, as a club over your head 
so yon will not do anything unfavorable to the Communist Party or 
to Stalinist regime '. 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley, Now. Mr. Zack, recently — Mr. Chairman, Mr. Zack 
has the letter which he referred to. the letter that he received about 
1935 or 1936. Is that correct? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That letter he will introduce later in connection with 
another part of his testimony. 

The Chairman. All right. 



5438 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Vooriiis. That is the letter lie mentioned a while ago ? 

Mr. Whitley. That is correct, 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack, will you explain to the committee the 
policy and the strategy and the objectives of the Communist Party in 
its work in the trade-union field ? 

Mr. Zack. Well, the work of the Communist Party in the trade- 
union field is directed by a center located in Moscow called the Red 
Trade Union International. That is, it was directed by them until 
a few years ago. The Red Trade Union International, or the present 
trade-union committee of the Comintern, have as their objective to 
use the trade-unions for their own political purposes. 

Now, in order to do that they cannot come to the public and say, 
"We want to use them for political purposes." They have to come in 
and prey on the grievances, actual grievances 

The Chairman. You mean prey on the grievances of the workers? 

Mr. Zack. On the grievances of workmen in the particular trade 
they want to work in. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Zack. And pretend that they are making those grievances, 
sponsoring those grievances, in order to get anywhere, and establish 
influence, and have influence upon one or another group of workers. 

But, of course, their main objective in the matter is to obtain politi- 
cal influence over these masses and organization control. 

You will notice that the trade-union policies of the Communist 
Party changed each time their general line changed. At one time they 
favored organizing what was known as dual unions outside the Ameri- 
can Federation of Labor. 

The Chairman. Have a split with the American Federation of 
Labor ? 

Mr. Zack. Right. 

Mr. Whitley. Instead of a union of their own ? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. Then they changed the policy of the party 
from within the American Federation of Labor to American Fed- 
eration of Labor split, At first advocated that there should be 
no split, and when they received instructions from Moscow they 
took the effort to control inside the American Federation of Labor 
into the C. I. O. because they were instructed to do that. 

The Chairman. In other words, they received instructions to split 
the American Federation of Labor? 

Mr. Zack. Well, they had instructions of a split of the American 
Federation of Labor away back in 1922, but they changed their 
methods as to how to do that, 

The Chairman. Since that time they changed their efforts as to 
how to bring about that objective? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. While this in general is the objective in the 
trade-union movement — I may illustrate, for instance, the matter 
by saying that Hitler claimed he wanted the Sudetenland Germans 
in order to unite the Sudetenland Germans with the other Germans, 
but his real objective was to take over a part of Czechoslovakia. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Zack. And in this case they pretended to sponsor grievances 
of the workmen, but their real objective was to obtain political 
control for their own purposes over these workmen, and whatever 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5439 

changes of policy may facilitate those objectives and at the same 
time serve the Stalinist government, why. of course, they changed 
the policj . 

Mr. Whitley. Now. Mr. Zack 

The Chairman. Just a second, Mr. Whitley. Let me clear up one 
point if I may. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

The Chairman. And that effort was in accord with orders from 
Moscow to leave the American Federation of Labor, those who were 
wit h the C. I. 0., and unite with the C. I. O. 

Mr. Zack. Most of them left their union: not all of them. 

The Chairman. Some of them stayed in the A. F. of L.? 

Mr. Zack. Yes: some of them stayed in the American Federation 
of Labor, with the idea of getting more organizational control within 
one particular trade-union, and then withdrawing it. 

The Chairman. In other words, the ones who stayed in the A. F. 
of L. did so for the purpose of waiting until they had complete 
control of certain unions in the A. F. of L., and then taking them 
over to the C. I. O.? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

The Chairman. Now. what was the strategy of going over to the 
C. I. O. ? That is what I do not understand — why they wanted to 20 
over to the C. I. O. 

Mr. Zack. Well, the strategy in this case, I think, was a very 
obvious one. The C. I. O. had a policy of organizing certain strategic 
industries, which could not be organized through the craft unions of 
the American Federation of Labor. However, the C. I. O., by organ- 
izing on an industrial basis, offered the opportunity of penetrating 
those industries under respectable auspices. So, for instance, the 
Communist Party hardly ever succeeded to organize the automobiles, 
the automobile industry, or rubber, or several others. Well them 
doing it through the C. I. O. made it possible for them to do what 
before they could not. 

The Chairman. In other words, they tried, as Communists, to 
organize the automobile industry and the rubber industry and the 
steel industry. Was it true with reference to steel? 

Mr. Zack.' Correct. 

The Chairman. Which were key industries, but they were unable 
to do so? 

Mr. Zack. Eight. 

The Chairman. And the C. I. O. offered them an opportune method 
of doing what they had failed to do as Communists? 

Mr. Zack. Yes." 

The Chairman. So most of them went over to the C. I. O.? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. Well, right in that connection, when they went into 
these new industries — I do not mean "new" from the standpoint of 
age. but from the standpoint of organization — like the rubber indus- 
try and the steel and the automobile, did the Communists furnish 
trained organizers and officials? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; the Communists had. as a result of their boring 
from within and as a result of organizing so-called dual unions, 
trained several thousand of actives in the various industries and those 
several thousand actives 



5440 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. What did you say; actors? 

Mr. Zack. Actives. 

The Chairman. Actives? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. Active labor agitators? 

Mr. Zack. That is right. 

The Chairman. I see. 

Mr. Zack. Men that knew something about how to organize in the 
trade-union field. And when the C. I. O. branched out to organize 
the industries, it could avail itself of these several thousand persons 
that had experience in organizing, you see, and which now could be- 
come very effective, because they were received under popular aus- 
pices, you see. 

The Chairman. In other words, they had the training, the back- 
ground necessary ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. They were trained agitators? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. Now, they had an opportunity, under the popular 
auspices, really to do effective work? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

The Chairman. And the C. I. O. aided them? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

The Chairman. Because the C. I. O. lacked trained organizers in 
these heavy industries they had never organized before? 

Mr. Zack. Yes — it did not have them in such large numbers. 

The Chairman. It only had a few? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. The reason I ask that is because that substantiates 
testimony we have previously heard. 

Mr. Mason. Would you put it this way, that the C. I. O. furnished 
respectability to Communist organizers and agitators, while the Com- 
munist organizers and agitators furnished the power to get organized 
to the C. I. O.? That was an exchange, you might say? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; it was a bargain necessitated by the conditions at 
the time. Of course, the C. I. O. leaders thought they were going to 
utilize the Communists, and the Communists thought they were going 
to utilize the C. I. O. I once said, in a discussion of the matter, 
that the C. I. O. leaders are mistaken, that Stalin followers do not 
work for John L. Lewis; they only work for Joe Stalin. And, in 
due time, they will find that out. 

Mr. Mason. Well, they have begun to find that out already, have 
they not, in some instances? 

Mr. Zack. I hope so. 

Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Zack, awhile ago you mentioned what was done 
with their unions; you said the Communists took their unions so 
and so and so. I wish you would just explain a little bit what you 
mean by "their unions." 

Mr. Zack. Well, during the so-called dual union period, the Com- 
munist Party had organized what they called "industrial unions." 
Most of these unions were affiliated with the Trade Union Unity 
League, but many of them were not affiliated ; they were formally 
independent, but indirectly controlled by the Communist Party. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5441 

When they decided to change their policy and affiliate with the 
American Federation of Labor they, through the party organization, 
instructed the leaders of these unions, which were Communist Party 
members, to disperse these independent unions and have them join 
the various trade and craft unions of the American Federation of 
Labor. 

Mr. Voorhis. Well, in other words, they just broke up the organi- 
zation that they had and then individual members went and joined 
the established unions, you mean? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. There was a bloc arrangement behind that, 
yOU see. 

Mr. Voorhis. I see. 

The Chairman. Now. let us get the development. So that when 
the C. I. O. broke away, the Communists were instructed from 
Moscow to break away also, and go with the C I. O.? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

The Chairman. And they had at that time several thousand well- 
trained agitators: is that right? 

.Mr. Zack. Correct. 

The Chairman. So that these several thousand being Communists, 
they are actually agents of the Soviet Union; is that not true? 

Mr. Zack. They are. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, they are serving the interests 
of the Moscow Government, are they not? 

Mr. Zack. They are: they certainly are. And if some of them don't 
know it, well they are exceptionally dumb. 

The Chairman. In other words, take a union, say, of four or five 
million American people : the overwhelming majority of them are non- 
Communists, are they not '. 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

The Chairman. But the Communists get the key positions; is that 
correct \ 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. Because of the fact they are well trained? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. They manage to act as an organized group inside 
and with that method they can obtain domination of many thousands 
with a few dozen. 

Mr. Voorhis. We have had testimony here denying that the Com- 
munist Party still used the fraction method of organization. Is that 
true, or not? 

Mr. Zack. The Communist Party cannot use any other method ex- 
cept the in sthod of using its members in every particular organization 
in the most efficient manner to obtain their objective, and that means 
to du it through the fractions. 

Mr. Voorhis. In other words, testimony to that effect would not be 
accurate '. 

Mr. Zack. That is only applesauce, if I may say. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack. a- I understand it from your testimony, 
then, the policies and objectives of the Communist Party in the trade- 
union work in this country have nothing whatever to do with the con- 
ditions in this country, or the needs of the particular union involved; 
those policies and the strategy used are all determined by the political 
needs of the Soviet Government? Is that correct? 



5442 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Zack. They have only to do with conditions to the extent that 
they have to utilize the conditions for the purpose of influencing the 
mass workers for their political objectives. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, they will take a popular issue or 
condition to disguise the real purpose of their activities and, under 
the guise of trying to sponsor or promote that issue within the union, 
they will get the s}anpathy and the following of the individuals in that 
organization ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. Well, they will utilize, for instance, a condition of 
mass unemployment and inadequate relief for the purpose of getting 
the masses on their side, and then use them for whatever purpose 
politically they want, you see. For instance, now a short while ago, 
they hollered from the roof tops that this country should go to war 
against the Nazis. Well, whatever influence they had, they would use 
for that purpose at that time. Now it is the contrary ; now they are 
saying that all wars are imperialistic wars, as long as Russia is not on 
the same side, you see. So, now, they will use the influence that they 
obtained, let us say, from unemployment or other categories of the 
masses that have grievances — they will now use that for the purpose 
of helping out the new Nazi-Soviet combination by keeping any help 
away from the Allies, you see. 

The Chairman. In other words, to state it correctly, now that it is 
to the interest of the Soviet Government that the United States not 
aid France and England or any other foe or opponent of the Soviet 
Union, the Communist Party in the United States, with its numerous 
contacts in labor organizations and wherever they are — their whole 
strategy will be to use all of that influence to cripple the United States 
in the event of war ; is not that true ? 

Mr. Zack. Correct; oh, sure. 

The Chairman. So that is a serious condition when a large labor 
organization has on its board of directors Communists and in key 
positions Communists — is not that a serious and critical situation we 
are facing in this country? 

Mr. Zack. It certainly is. 

The Chairman. Is it not time that the responsible leaders should 
take some decisive action to satisfy the American people they are not 
going to stand for that kind of thing? 

Mr. Zack. I think they should ; but I am afraid that the American 
public does not understand this proposition and they would probably 
mistake it ; that is, they don't yet understand that Stalin's political 
leaders in this country have objectives different from the ones that 
the masses have, you see. 

Mr. Voorhis. Would you say, Mr. Zack. an accurate statement would 
be to state that the foreign policy which is advocated by the Com- 
munists for the United States to follow is not determined by what 
is necessarily in the American interest, but is determined altogether 
by what is in the interests of Soviet Russia? 

Mr. Zack. Correct — exclusively by the interests of the Russian 
Government. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack, can you cite an instance or example of use 
of a strike for Russian purposes ? Would you say, for instance, that 
the Gastonia strike was a good example of using a strike for political 
purposes of the Soviet Government? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5443 

Mr. Zack. Well, no. They use strikes, in this case, for purpose of 
increasing their influence — an influence which they will later on use 
for whatever purposes. And the strike in this case might have 
been an actual necessity; 1 mean the low pay of the workers in that 
case caused these workers to respond to the strike, and the Communist 
Party used the strike to increase their influence in that particular 
territory. It may not have been specifically at that time for what 
you call a Russian purpose; it may have been just for the purpose of 
increasing their influence which, later on, they can use for the Russian 
purpose, you see \ 

Mr. Voorhis. In other words, because the Communists attempt to 
take advantage of a situation and do the best they can with it does 
not necessarily mean there are not a great many things that need 
to be corrected in that situation' 1 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

Mr. Voorhis. From the standpoint of perfectly good democratic 
interests of the people? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. What I cannot understand from your testimony 
and the testimony of other witnesses is why, with the known facts 
that have not been disputed, because this committee wrote to Mr. 
Brophy and told him if he wanted to deny any of these facts, he 
would be accorded ample opportunity to come before the committee 
and testify under oath and dispute Gitlow's testimony on the Com- 
munist Party, but we have never heard from him— and how long- 
ago was it we sent word to him? 

Mr. Whitley. Several weeks. 

The Chairman. And what I cannot understand is why these re- 
sponsible leaders who are not Communists — Mr. Lewis is not a Com- 
munist, and never was a Communist during the time you were 
connected with the party? 

Mr. Zack. No. 

The Chairman. Now, why is it that the responsible leaders, know- 
ing they have several thousand Communists in important positions; 
that i>. as organizers, officials, and so on, and so forth — why is it 
they do not take some action to clean house and get rid of the 
Communists in their ranks? 

Mr. Zack. Because they think they can utilize the Communists and 
then dispose of them whenever they wish to. which, of course, remains 
to be seen. I think if Mr. Lewis will make an attempt to get rid of 
the members of Stalin's organization he will find it not so easy, because 
they are in control of about 11 of his national organizations. 

The Chairman. Eleven of his organizations. 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. Well, now. if it is dangerous to have Communists 
occupying key positions in labor organizations, is it not also dangerous 
for them to occupy key positions in the Government? 

Mr. Zack. Well, wherever they are. they work for Joe Stalin only; 
I can assure you of that. They don't work for anybody else, wherever 
they are. whether in the Government, or unions, or any other place. 

The Chairman. T do not think there is any question about that, 
because even Foster and Browder both admitted if a member of the 



5444 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

party does not follow the party line he is expelled. There is no ques- 
tion about that, is there ? 

Mr. Z \ck. Yes. 

The Chairman. If the Communist Party of the United States and 
the members of the Communist Party do not follow the orders that 
come from the Communist International, they are expelled from the 
Communist International, are they not ? 

Mr. Zack. They certainly are. They are even expelled if they are 
only suspected of not following. 

The Chairman. If they are only suspected? 

Mr. Z\ck. Yes. 

The Chairman. In other words, the discipline is so rigid that every 
member of the Communist Party, no matter what position he occupies, 
whether in the Government, labor unions, front organizations, or what 
not, must obey the orders of Stalin ; is that right ? 

Mr. Zack. Must obey the general line. 

The Chairman. The general line ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Vcorhis. Would not this be a pretty accurate way to put it : 
That the Communist Party of the United States cannot remain affili- 
ated with the Communist International unless it follows the Com- 
munist International line, and a member of the Communist Party of 
the United States cannot remain a member of the Communist Party 
of the United States unless he follows the directions of the Com- 
munist Party, which, in turn, are dictated by the Communist Inter- 
national ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; that is correct; but they may become formally dis- 
associated for convenience and still follow their policies. 

Mr. Vcorhis. I wanted to ask you, Mr. Zack, whether you can make 
any practical suggestions as to how to find out just who are Com- 
munists and who are not? 

Mr. Zack. How to find out ? Well, the most reliable way to do that 
is to see whether any individual goes along with the general line over 
a period of time. 

Mr. Voorhis. Yes. 

Mr. Zack. For instance, it is impossible for an individual to have 
sponsored all the democracies going to war at once against the Nazis, 
say, and today to sponsor the opposite, unless he is a soldier, a political 
soldier, you see. 

Mr. Mason. In other words, we are to judge them by their actions 
over a period of time, rather than by their words or protestations? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; that is a most certain indication, because no normal 
person 

Mr. Mason. Would change over that quick on a fundamental prob- 
lem? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; because anybody who has a brain, instead of only 
a receiving set to receive orders, will certainly, if he is convinced of 
one thing, not go along with the other thing overnight. 

The Chairman. In other words, here was the League for Peace and 
Democracy going around all over the country denouncing fascism and 
nazi-ism; in all their conventions that was the only thing they de- 
nounced. 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5445 

The Chairman. And then when the Soviet Government made this 
past with Germany and the Communist Parties in the United States 
and throughout the world came out in defense of the pact, the Amer- 
ican League also came out in defense of it. did it not? 

Mr. ZacK. Correct. 

The Chairman. And how could there possibly be any sincere change 
of policy, except they were following the party line of Moscow? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

The Chairman. And how can people remain in the American league, 
people who hold positions of responsibility in this Government, and 
in Labor unions and in labor organizations — how can they stay in this 
league when they have had the evidence, and for a year they have had 
t he evidence, that the league is nothing but a Communist organization '. 

Mr. Zack. They must be members of the party. 

Mi-. "Whitley. Or sympathetic to it. anyway ? . 

Mr. Zack. Or maybe unofficial members. 

The Chairman. Do they have unofficial members of the party? 

Mr. Zack. Oh. yes. 

The Chairman. In other words, people who hold. say. a Govern- 
ment job. or any job where they would be likely to be fired, when 
they join, they join unofficially; is that right? 

Mr. Zack. They will not attend any unit meetings where other 
people are present; they will only report to certain officials that they 
are connected with. 

Mr. Whitley. Is it the general practice, Mr. Zack, in the party. 
for members to hide their identities and to use false names or so- 
called "party" names '. 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That i> a general practice? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. Since 1932 every party member has an assumed 
name and the party books are issued to him in his assumed name. 

Mr. Whitley. That is what is known as a "party" name? 

Mr. Zack. Right. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack. verv often a front organization, or labor 
or trade-union organization, when an accusation or statement is made 
that ii is controlled or dominated by the Communist Party, denies 
it on the basi^ that there is such a small percentage of Communists 
in the organization, the defense being that they could not possibly 
control this organization, when just a few. I or 5 or 6 percent of the 
total membership, are Communis!.-. 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you explain to the committee how the Com- 
munist Party noes out and gets control of a trade union with a very 
small percentage of the membership — just how it performs that 
modern miracle of strategy? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. Well, you can take a trade union of 5,000 mem- 
bers, let as say. and out of the 5,000 the average number that will 
come to the trade-union meeting may be two or three hundred, you 
see. Those two or three hundred are the ones that actually vote upon 
the every-day business of the union. Now, these two or three hun- 
dred are all individual-, except the Communists; they are not indi- 
viduals: they will act as a compact body, you see: whereas the 300 
that come, each of them will vote individually according to what he 



5446 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

likes or dislikes, the 15 members of the party will vote as a unit. 
Plue those 15 men, they will have influence, let us say, over 15 or 
20 more, and they will organize them as what has become known 
as ''fellow travelers." So that you will then have a block of 30 to 
35 individuals. These 30 to 35 individuals will not be known as a 
Communist group, but they will act conceitedly in favor of a certain 
proposition. Various individuals in different parts of the hall will 
rise and speak in favor of that proposition. 

The Chairman. Mr. Zack, I think that is a most astounding sit- 
uation and presents, I think, a very dangerous situation — that here 
are hundreds of Government employees members of front organiza- 
tions that we know by absolute indisputable evidence for more than 
a year, or for a year, it has been disclosed that those organizations 
were controlled by the Communist Party, and here they are occupy- 
ing key positions in this Government and yet they have not with- 
drawn from those organizations ; they are still members of them. 
And, under your testimony, it leaves a very grave question as to 
whether they are not also members openly and knowingly of the 
Communist Party, whether officiallv or unofficially. 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. And that being true, they are, in effect, agents of 
Stalin, in a position to hurt our country in this political situation, 
and Stalin seems to be nothing but a bedfellow of Hitler. So it 
looks like, from your testimony — and you have been in this move- 
ment a long time and ought to know what you are talking about — 
that we have a very critical situation. Is that correct? 

Mr. Zack. You have. Most likely many of those officials, however, 
joined up with them at a time when they were favoring the policies 
of the Government. Now that they are changing their policy, these 
officials will probably quit, or have. 

The Chairman. Well, I would have thought they would have 
quit a year ago when we, by the most competent testimony, brought 
out the facts, when the people who promoted these organizations 
testified to the facts, and yet the Chair has absolute evidence that they 
have not quit. So it raises a serious question, under your testimony, 
as to whether or not these people are not in fact Communists. 

Mr. Zack. Yes. If they still stick with them after such a face- 
about and preach the exact opposite of what they preached yesterday, 
well, then, they must be, of course, members unofficially of the party 
and carrying out the party's orders. 

The Chairman. And really the only way we can tell they are un- 
official members is by their following the party line; because they 
have no record — they keep no record, at least — that anybody can get 
of the membership? 

Mr. Zack. They keep records of the membership, but you could 
not get them ; I mean those are kept secretly. 

The Chairman. Of course, there is one way to clarify this whole 
thing. Browder swore that he had 100,000 members, and Foster 
said that was correct. Now. if the Communist Party of America 
wants to cooperate, and will give us a statement showing exactly who 
are the members, how many are engaged as Government officials, how 
many are members of labor unions, and how many are labor organ- 
izers, and will make that information available to this committee in 
an accurate list, we can, once for all, clarify this grave situation. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5447 

If we can find out how many belong (<> their organization, and the 
front organizations, like t Ik* League for Peace and Democracy and 
the Friends of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, or how many of them 
are Communists and how Long they have been Communists, it seems 
to the Chair that we can take some action to expel them from the 
Government service and from labor unions. 

Mr. Zack. 1 am sure yon will never get such a list. 

The Chairman. They will never submit such a list? 

Air. Zack. No, sir. 

The Chairman. The next best thing, if they state to the committee, 
after t his. committee has been trying desperately to get the facts, that 
they belong to the organization, or have joined organizations organ- 
ized by the Communist Party and controlled by the Communist 
Party — the next best thing is to take that list and use it as evidence 
of their Communist views. 

Mr. Whitley. Continue with your explanation of how a very small 
minority of Communists in trade unions gain control of the policies 
and dominate the union. You have explained how only a small per- 
centage of the membership attend the meetings, and how the Com- 
munists form a bloc or group in the union. 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Suppose you continue with that. 

Mr. Zack. We will say there are 15 Communists, with their fellow 
travelers, who act as a bloc in the meeting, whereas everyone else 
will act individually. When they come to nominate people for office, 
they, of course, figure out who to nominate beforehand, whereas the 
others will not agree among themselves. The others will want to run 
each individual for some office, we will say, and they will disagree, 
whereas those 35, we will say. will have agreed upon a particular 
slate of officers. They will nominate them, and will propagandize 
for their slate of officers, so when they come up for election, that 
organized group 

Mr. Whitley. Is it a fraction ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. They are more on less ably directed, and 
they usually take good advantage of grievances that may exist at 
the time. That will get them into the offices. Once they get in office 
they will use the means of the union as a whole to further their purposes 
in various ways and to entrench themselves in the organization. 

Mr. Whitley. They increase their strength as a result of occupying 
key positions? 

Mr. Z\ck. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Where does the party get its finances for carrying 
on their trade-union activities? Are they financed by subsidies from 
outside of the United States or subsidies from the Comintern? 

Mi-. Zack. Yes, sir. The top organization, the Trade Unity 
League, used to be maintained entirely from subsidies, because the 
affiliated unions did not have any part in the activities. So the top 
organization, or what was known as the national committee of the 
Trade Unity League, had its publications, representatives, etc. They 
received their pay from subsidies received from Moscow. Also, in 
certain industries in which the Comintern was particularly interested, 
they would assign a budget. Let us say that to the maritime indus- 
try they would assign $10,000 a year for activities in that field: in 

94931— 39— vol. 9 13 



5448 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

the railroad industry they would assign, let us sav, $5,000; and to 
the mining industry, say, $25,000 or $50,000. 

Mr. Whitley. That money would only be sent for that particular 
work from the Comintern? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. That is where no money has been raised for 
the activity in this country. 

Mr. Whitley. You can go ahead and discuss the trade-union poli- 
cies and strategies in your own way. making a presentation that you 
think may be of interest to the committee. 

Mr. Zack. Well, I do not know what angle particularly you may 
be interested in, and there is so much to discuss in this field. 

Mr. Mason. Personally, I would be interested in the objectives of 
the Communist Party through their trade-union activities. 

Mr. Whitley. All right, will you explain that? 

Mr. Zack. The objectives of the Communist Party are to establish 
in this country the same kind of totalitarian government that exists 
in Russia. It is the Russian form of government that dominates the 
ideal model for every member of the Communist Party to be applied 
in every country. That is, the Government should take over all in- 
dustry, expropriate the private owners, and the Government would 
dominate the labor unions and expropriate the workers from their 
rights. 

On the one hand they would expropriate the capitalists of their 
capital and property, and, on the other hand, they would expropriate 
the workers of their rights. Of course, that is the only thing the 
workers own. That is the only right that belongs to them, and under 
that particular set up, if you would take that right away, they have 
nothing left. In fact, the whole society, the social and political 
organization, is merged into a government, which is a bureaucratic 
democracy, which is also based on a one-party system. Since such a 
system would not work, because the various officeholders would tend 
to disagree among themselves, you have the party organized on the 
basis of a top dictator who appoints lower dictators, and they, in 
turn, appoint still lower ones. Therefore, you have an absolutely 
rigid control. Of course, some people think that it is socialism in 
Russia, and that it had its beginning in direct socialism, but what 
you have in Russia is really one of the most vicious forms of state 
capitalism, minus capitalists and minus the rights of workers. The 
Communist Party in the various countries, including the one in the 
United States, wants to do exactly that. 

Mr. Whitley. And they use trade unions as one of (lie means of 
attaining that objective? 

Mr. Zack. The trade unions they use as one of the most strategic 
means for that purpose, because the trade unions give decisive effect 
to economic functions in all industries and in economics generally. 
Therefore, they consider it more important than, for instance, just 
some propaganda front organization, like the League for Peace and 
Democracy. 

Mr. Whitley. To what extent is the Communist Party in its trade- 
union activities actually interested in promoting the welfare and in- 
terest of the working classes who are union members? Have they 
any real interest in accomplishing that? 

Mr. Zack. So far as the interest of the workers is concerned, that 
is incidental with them. They will utilize their grievances in order to 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5449 

obtain political influence. How incidental it is to them could be 
illustrated on the basis of what happened to the workers in Russia. 
The workers of Russia, after this government bureaucracy, were 
gradually expropriated from all of their rights. They have noth- 
ing whatsoever to say over wages or over industry generally. They 
work, instead of for an individual owner, or for individual capitalist 
owners, for the government. They work for the government which 
owns all the means of production. The government dicates to labor 
the intensity of labor and the price of the goods that they buy, and, 
of course, it manipulates the volume of money very arbitrarily — so 
much so that the condition of the workers has been materially de- 
clining in Russia continually. 

Mr. Voorhis. Can you give sonic concrete example of that? 

Mr. Zack. Well, there is, for instance, this: When you say that 
the pay that an average workman received was 64 rubles per month. 
and that that workman now receives 180 rubles per month, yet the 
ruble was worth about five times as much at that time as its present 
valuje; so that the actual material value of the ruble today is about 
one-fifth of what it was formerly. The Daily Worker will each 
time say that workers in Russia are receiving 9 percent, 15 percent, 
or 20 percent more, but they will not say that the value of the 
ruble has declined by much more than that; so that the same worker 
who receives now 180 rubles per month will be actually getting in 
value only about 30 or 40 rubles per month in comparison with the 
value of the ruble in 1928, let us say. That is because they have 
nothing to say about the whole business. They cannot protect them- 
selves. They cannot strike. They have no rights. Then, they have 
in Russia what is known as the internal-passport system whereby you 
cannot move from one locality to another in the same country with- 
out special permission. On that passport they specify their conduct 
in the factory where they have been working, so that if you are on 
the black li-t. you will be unable to get the kind of a job that you 
would have been able to get otherwise. 

Mi'. Whitley. Do they have assessments on workers for various 
purposes '. 

Mr. Zack. Yes. sir. 

Mi\ Whitley. How are they levied, or how do they determine 
tiie amount '. 1 mean to say who decides how much these assess- 
ments are to be \ 

Mr. Zack. That is decided entirely by the Government or by the 
Communist Party. In reality it is decided by Stalin. 

Mr. Whitley. How is that passed down, or how is it done? 

Mr. Zack. It is simply imposed, like the check-off assessment. 
The assessment is checked off from their pay. That is all there is 
to it. You do not receive it in your pay envelope. 

Mi'. Whitley. Have you finished with that? 

Mr. Yoi kiiis. I want to bring out the point of whether the work- 
ers know the plans. They do not have any chance to have any meet- 
ings to decide if they want to have an assessment made for certain 
purposes, do they \ 

All-. Zack. Sometimes they go through the ceremonial of present- 
ing plans in meetings, but it is not healthy for anybody to vote 
against a Government proposition. 



5150 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Dempsey. In answer to Mr. Voorhis' question, when he asked 
who levied the assessments, you said it was the Communist Party, 
which was the government. Do I understand from you that the Com- 
munist Party and the government are one and the same? 

Mr. Zack. Absolutely. 

Mr. Dempsey. What about the American Communist Party? Is 
that a part of the Government of Russia, too? 

Mr. Zack. The American Communist Party is not a part of the 
Russian Government, because it is not in Russia. But otherwise it is. 

Mr. Dempsey. Is it subservient to the Russian Government? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; it certainly is. 

Mr. Dempsey. Where is the allegience of the Communist Party? 
To what government does it give allegiance, the Soviet Government or 
the United States Government? 

Mr. Zack. The Soviet Government. There is no doubt about that. 

Mr. Whitley. Suppose you take several large industrial centers in 
this country, where there are a number of active Communist fractions 
in the various industries in an industrial center like Detroit, for in- 
stance, where they probably have Communist groups active in -10 or 50 
industries. In each one of these industries the Communist fractions 
or groups carry out their policies in the trade-unions. Now, where do 
those fractions get their orders? How do they get their instructions 
and the plans they are to follow in their own particular industries? 

Mr. Zack. They get their instructions from the district headquar- 
ters, or from representatives from some bureaus for special actions. 
They would come from the political bureau. That would be from New 
York, or from a representative from New York. 

Mr. Whitley. That would be in special cases ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir: special cases, in internal strikes, and so forth. 
That is where they get their instructions. Of course, in New York, at 
the headquarters, there are delegates of the Comintern, who are the 
ones who really decide the business. 

Mr. Whitley. You will go into that when you discuss the relations 
between the Comintern and the party in this country. The point I 
want to bring out is that the Communist Party fractions in the various 
industries do not" determine their own policies or the procedure they 
will follow, but they get orders or instructions from district headquar- 
ters, and when they have an important problem they have instructions 
from a representative from the political bureau. 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. They are allowed to decide peanuts or the small 
stuff, but not anything of any consequence. 

Mr. Whitley. They get their orders when they make important 
decisions in this country ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. They get orders from the district headquarters, and 
the district in turn, if it is an important matter, receives instructions 
from the political bureau at the Communist headquarters? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Can you name some of the organizers you referred 
to a moment ago who go around the country, confer with, and give 
instructions to the fractions on important matters? 
Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; there is Jack Stachel. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 545} 

Mr. Whitley. He is the executive secretary of the party? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; at the present time. Then there is William Z. 
Foster, aii' I a man by the name of Gebert. 

Mr. Whitley. They are traveling representatives who go around 
to them on these different problems? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; and there are others. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you want to name some others? 

Mr. Zack. I do not remember all of them on the spot. 

Mr. Whitney. Does the party, in carrying out its trade-union 
policies, ever resort to terrorism or strong-arm tactics in accomplish- 
ing its purposes? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. They do not believe in being soft. When- 
ever they need to u>e, or can use, roughneck tactics, they do it. 
They used to have a combai squad in various trade-unions who would 
go out and beat up either their opponents or scabs. I think you 
have heard of cases like that of Juliet Stewart Poyntz who was done 
away with by them. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, if strong-arm methods or violence 
will serve their purposes, they use them? 

Mr. Zack. The more power they have, the more they use it. 

Mr. Whitley. Frequently we have had references to the Com- 
munist Party securing control or domination over unions, and the 
statement is made that they clean out the treasuries. Do you know 
of any instance where that was done, or can you explain how that is 
done? In other words, where they use the treasury of a particular 
trade-union for their own political propaganda or activities. 

Mr. Zack. Well, you see, if you have control of the actual leader- 
ship of a union, you also have the technical staff that handles the 
accounts in the union offices, and you can do very many things. 

The Chairman. Even though the membership is 98 percent non- 
Communist ? In other words, the membership may not be Com- 
munist to any extent. 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. But they would have the key positions, and would 
be able to do whatever they wanted to do ? 

Mr. Zack. You could draw a lot of money, or practically the whole 
treasury of the union, and use it as a loan for 6 months, or draw it 
by installments. They have both direct and indirect means. Direct 
means would be where you voted a donation to an organization. An 
indirect means would be to say you will use it to buy literature, 
and put it on the bill of the union, without specifying it, 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know of instances where those procedures 
are being followed? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir ; they have been followed. 

Mr. Whitley. Can you cite a particular instance as an illustration 
of that ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. They used to do that in the case of furriers 
and food workers. 

Mr. Whitley. That is where they were engaged actively in union 
work ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. sir. They have become even more proficient since. 



5452 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. You got out in 1934? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. The Communist Party occupying half a dozen 
strategic positions in a union can dominate that union, even though 
98 percent of the membership is not communistic, based on the Com- 
munist Party figures? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Once they get in key positions 

Mr. Zack (interposing). They can do that as long as the American 
public at large is not wise to their methods. Their methods are not 
known to the average American, and he cannot get wise to them unless 
he goes through a lot of experience and education. I know of some 
unions, among them, for instance, the transport workers, or the New 
York subway workers, where it would be impossible for them to 
dominate the union. You have people there who have begun to 
understand their methods. 

Mr. Voorhis. Taking it from the standpoint of the union itself, 
suppose there is a situation in which certain policies should be 
followed for the sake of the welfare of the members of the union, but 
those policies happen to conflict with the current party line for some 
reason : Would the Communist Party members of that union have to 
follow the party line in such a case ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. In other words, the union would have very poor re- 
liance there if they depended upon any element of loyalty on the 
part of members of the Communist Partv who were members of the 
Union ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. You say that in the trade-union work, the Com- 
munist Party is interested in certain industries. They have a par- 
ticular interest in certain industries? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. sir, 

Mr. Whitley. In organizing and getting strength in the industry? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you give some reason for that? 

Mr. Zack. They were always interested particularly in the mari- 
time industry. That is a strategic industry from the point of view 
of both equipment and national communications. It is also because 
that at the present time the operation of the equipment in peacetime 
also becomes the operation in wartimes. They would use the same 
personnel for operation in wartime. It is also because of the great 
importance and value of the equipment in this case, and the importance 
of the industry. The}' spend more on the maritime industry both in 
this country and in other countries than in any other industry or 
several of the industries put together. They started with the mari- 
time industry before they did anything else in any other industries 
as far back as 1921 in this country. Of course, the next to that in 
interest used to be the railroads. 

The Chairman. The railroads in the country? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; means of communication, radio, and so forth. 

Mr. Whitley. And cables? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; cables. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5453 

Mr. Whitley. How about munitions? 

Mr. Zack. It would cover telephones, and so forth. From the 
viewpoint of their ultimate strategy, for instance, in the case of a 
social upheaval, where they could gel into control, those are the 
industries that would play the key role. They decide their strategy 
in the unions from the point of view of their ultimate objectives, and 
from the point of view of manning the communication service, 
whether it would be on land or sea. in the air, or by wire. That 
would play a primary role. 

Mr. Whitley. Does the Comintern dictate the industries in which 
the party in these countries is to be particularly active in organizing? 

Mr. Zack. It certainly does. 

Air. Whitley. In other words, the Comintern instructions to the 
Communist Party in this country are that they must try to get con- 
trol of the maritime trade unions, the communication services, and 
so forth. 

Mr. Zack. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And the party in this country is carrying out the 
ideas and policies of the Comintern? 

Mr. Zack. The party in this country does not do anything that 
is important without instructions, but they do it upon instructions 
received in various ways, either secretly or semisecretly, or through 
personal delegates that are sent from there. 

The Chairman. From where? 

Mr. Zack. From Moscow, and they see that those instructions are 
carried out. 

Mr. Whitley. Does the Communist Party use its connections with 
the trade-unions of the various industries for the purpose of carrying 
on espionage activities? For instance, if the Soviet Government 
wanted to obtain some industrial secret, and sent its agents over here 
for that purpose, would they utilize those Communist Party con- 
nections with the trade-unions in the industries to help procure such 
a secret? 

Mr. Zack. The Soviet Government will utilize its American organi- 
zation for whatever purpose they find convenient or necessary at all 
times, and the officials of the Communist Party will, if they venture 
to tell the truth — they cannot tell you anything else. 

Of course, that does not mean that every member of the Com- 
munist Party can be used for certain purposes, but there are secret 
organizations that manage to pick out individuals out of the ranks 
of the Communist Party to use for that purpose. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know of any specific instances in which 
they have used their trade-union connection to obtain industrial 
secrets? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. While 1 was in charge of the Trade Union Unity 
League I was once asked to supply an engineer, a chemist, who 
would personally have qualifications capable, and let us say, talk 
to other engineers higher in the profession than himself, in this 
instance, specifically, certain engineers of du Pont. I was asked 
to do that by Max Bedacht, who was then in charge of this phase 
of their secret activity. Wellf I recommended a certain individual, 
and I was asked to meet the G. P. U. agent in charge of this branch 



5454 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

of their activities, and I introduced him to him. Anything that 
happened after that I do not know. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, in this instance, you, as head of 
the T. U. U. L., were asked to select a man who could get into a 
certain industry, obviously for a specific purpose, which, in this 
instance, you know was industrial espionage or to get some secret? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; to obtain a commercial secret, which in wartime 
would be of importance for any war purposes. 

Mr. Whitley. Does the party in this country cooperate in that 
manner in munitions plants and airplane factories, using its mem- 
bers who are in those industries to get secrets of the industries, which 
are transmitted to the Soviet Government? 

Mr. Zack. I wish I could impress you gentlemen sufficiently with 
the fact that the Communist Party in this country will and does do 
everything which they think will serve their ideal, that is, the Russian 
Government, it does not matter what. 

As I said, they cannot use the same individual for everything, 
so they will select individuals, just as you would in any other under- 
taking where you have to have individuals fit for a particular 
purpose. 

But their allegiance and obligation, and theory and methods, et 
cetera, et cetera, is at the use and command of what is kown as the 
Russian Government, and the party that runs the Russian Government. 
There is no one who can truthfully maintain the contrary and prove it. 

Mr. Dempsey. Do you happen to know approximately how many 
communistic agents, citizens of Russia, are in this country, usually? 

Mr. Zack. No ; I do not. 

Mr. Dempsey. Do you know how many of them are here for educa- 
tional purposes? 

Mr. Zack. Well, originally, they used to send around Russians to the 
various parties, but in the last 10 years they cut down on that because 
they trained non-Russians in the various schools in Moscow to perform 
the functions originally performed by Communists outside of Russia. 

Mr. Dempsey. If you know, how many, approximately, Communist 
agents do you have? 

Mr. Zack. You mean in the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Dempsey. Yes. 

Mr. Zack. Oh, I do not think 

Mr. Dempsey. Who are aliens. 

Mr. Zack. I do not think more than 20 percent of the present mem- 
bership are noncitizens. 

Mr. Dempsey. Do you think 20 percent are noncitizens ? 

Mr. Zack. About that many. 

Mr. Dempsey. They are citizens of other countries? 

Mr. Zack. They are citizens of other countries. 

Mr. Dempsey. Have not taken out their papers here? 

Mr. Zack. Either took out their first papers, or did not take out any 
papers at all. 

(Thereupon the committee proceeded to executive business, after 
which a recess was taken until 1 p. m. this day.) 

AFTER RECESS 

The committee reassembled, pursuant to the taking of recess, at 1 
p. m., Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5455 

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH ZACK— Resumed 

The Chairman. The committee will please come to order. Will you 
proceed, Mr. Whit lev. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack, you mentioned this morning that at the 
time the C. I. O. was formed 11 unions controlled by Communists 
were taken by the Communist Party out of the A. F. of L. and joined 
theC. I. O. * 

Can you name those unions for us? 

Mr. Zack. Well, they were at the time unknown with the names 
they carry now. 

The Chairman. What are they now? 

Mr. Zack. They were the furriers, who are now affiliated with the 
C. I. O. ; the independent transport workers, who were formed 
as a maritime union originally and then affiliated with the Broth- 
erhood of Railway Car Men, et cetera, et cetera, and then taken 
out of there and affiliated with the C. I. O., and they are known as 
the C. I. O. Transport, the National Martime Workers, and then the 
Maritime Workers Industrial Union. 

There is the Auto Workers Union, which later on became the United 
Automobile Workers. 

There is the United Electrical and Radio, which was formed out of 
a number of independent unions, and the Metal Workers Industrial 
Union, a T. U. U. L. organization. There is the Office Workers, which 
the party had an independent union in before. 

Mr. Whitley. And is now the United Office and Professional Work- 
ers of America ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. There was a union of agricultural workers out in 
the West, which later became the United Cannery or something or 
other. 

Mr. Whitley. The Agricultural Packing and Allied Workers of 
America ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How about the furniture workers? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; the furniture workers — they have a furniture work- 
ers' industrial union. 

Mr. Whitley. Now? 

Mr. Zack. Went into the C. I. O. and broke away and became the 
United Furniture Workers. 

Mr. Whitley. What about communications? 

Mr. Zack. The Communications Association, which formerly was 
radiotelegraphers. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know the present name of that organization? 

Mr. Zack. The American Communications Association. 

There was an independent union also of chemists, technicians, and 
engineers which originated from an independent union in the munici- 
pal service in New York, and was gotten control of by the Communists, 
and out of which came the present Chemical Engineers and Tech- 
nicians Association. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the Federation of Architects. Engineers, 
Chemists and Technicians? 

Mr. Zack. That is it. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that the organization that Sherer is the head of? 

Mi-. Zack. Yes; he is the head of that organization, or 



5456 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. What is the name of that ? 

Mr. Whitley. That is the Federation of Architects, Engineers, 
Chemists and Technicians. 

The Chairman. Is that now affiliated with the C. I. O. \ 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. What about the steel workers? 

Mr. Zack. Well, the Communists have a few branches of the steel 
industry, formerly affiliated with the Steel and Metal Workers In- 
dustrial Union. These branches have all very active personnel in the 
steel areas, and later on joined the Amalgamated Association of Iron, 
Steel and Tin Workers, and this body was taken over by the C. I. O. 
and formed into the Steel Workers Organizing Committee, as it exists 
today. 

The Chairman. The Steel Workers Organizing Committee as it 
exists today? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. Which is affiliated with the C. I. O. % 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know of any others? I think you have 
named 10 or 11. 

Mr. Zack. Yes; there is several others that I cannot recall at this 
moment. If I saw the names in front of me, I could easily recall all 
the rest. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know Mr. Wyndham Mortimer? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; I do; Mr. Wyndham Mortimer worked in the "White 
motor plant when I was the secretary in Ohio, and he joined the party 
in 1933. I O. K.'d his application to join the party. 

Mr. Whitley. You recommended him, or approved him? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. What is his position? 

Mr. Whitley. What position does he hold now? 

Mr. Zack. He is now one of the leaders in the United Automobile 
Workers, one of the principal leaders in the Automobile Workers 
of the C I. O. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether he is a national director of 
the C. I. O. ? 

Mr. Zack. Whether he is on the national committee of the C. I. O. ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Zack. I do not know. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Joseph Cumin : are you acquainted with 
him? 

Mr. Zack. Joe Curran from Maritime? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes; he was a member of the Maritime Workers 
Industrial Union before he was in the party group. 

Mr. Whitley. He was a member of the party ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; so far as I know; at least at that time. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you ever attended any party meetings with 
him? 

Mr. Zack. I attended a lot of meetings of the party faction in the 
Maritime Union, the New York faction, and sometimes also the 
national party faction. That is what I remember Curran from, 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, to the best of your knowledge as a 
former member, he was in the party any known as a member of the 
party ? 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5457 

Mr. Zack. Yes; and lie certainly followed all their policies. 
The Chairman. What is his position now? 

Air. Zack. He is general secretary of the National Maritime Union 
of the C. I. O. 

The Chairman. And as such he is a member of the board of direc- 
tors of the C. I. O.? 

Mr. Zack. It may be. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with Mr. John Brophy? 

Mr. Zack. Slightly. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what his relations have been to the 
Communist Party? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; he was working very closely with the party back 
between 1925 and 1928. 

At that time there was an internal fight in the United Mine Work- 
ers, and the Comintern invested tremendous amounts of funds to put 
John L. Lewis out. At one time Brophy was running for president 
against John L. Lewis. His campaign was organized entirely and 
directed by the Communist Party. 

Mr. Whitley. And did they also finance that campaign, to your 
knowledge ? 

Mr. Zack. They certainly did, and no one else did. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know the extent to which it was financed, 
Mr. Zack, of your own knowledge? 

Mr. Zack. Well. I know it was financed at least 90 percent out of 
resources obtained by the party and the Comintern. 

While I was in Moscow representing the Foster faction I was 
called to the Comintern building and asked by men then in charge of 
financial subsidies, one by the name of Melinchansky. whether we 
would approve the Comintern sending an additional $50,000 for a cam- 
paign inside of the United Mine Workers, in view of the factional 
situation in the party here. They suspected that Lovestone wanted to 
use it to bolster up his faction instead of using it for the fight in the 
United Mine Workers. 

I said, "Well, I think $25,000 additional would be enough," and 
that is what they received. 

Mr. Whitley. In addition to funds already sent? 

Mr. Zack. In addition to funds already sent. 

Mr. Whitley. So far as the $25,000 is concerned, you know where 
that came from, because you saw it going through ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; I certainly did. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you would say that during the 
period you refer to Mr. Brophy did follow the party line of the Com- 
munist Party very closely? 

Mr. Z \ck." Yes. 

Mr. AViiiTLEY. As closely as if he had been there? 

Mr. Zack. Certainly. 

Mr. Whitley. He took orders and followed out their instructions \ 

The Chairman. Let us see about that, At that time the Com- 
munists were fighting Mr. Lewis and supporting Brophy. What 
brought about the change of attitude on the part of the Communist 
Party toward John L. Lewis and the C. I. O. ? 

Mr. Zack. That is a pretty good question. The change had noth- 
ing to do with either John L. Lewis or the Communist Party, or the 
conditions of this country. 



5458 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The change hnd to do with the fact that Moscow changed its foreign 
policy from one of the extreme left which at that time was embodied in 
the slogan, "Class Against Class," to one of cooperation, cooperation 
with the democracies. 

Now a policy of cooperation with the democracies presupposes that 
you do not continue to fight those that you think you could get on 
your side by this new policy. 

Let us say that in order to apply the policy of what they called 
the popular front they would make a combination with Daladier in 
France, or with Blum, or in this country they would make a com- 
bination with anyone whom they formerly fought, if they would 
allow themselves to be used as a pressure group for the objective 
that Stalin had in mind. His objective was to bring pressure against 
the Nazis, and to bring pressure against the Nazis it is not sufficient 
just to have a little Communist Party somewhere. He was in favor of 
an alliance with France and England and all of the labor leaders of 
this country. 

The Chairman. Because all of the labor leaders were active anti- 
Nazis ? 

Mr. Zack. That is it. In order to work out a sufficient and 
formidable front against the Nazis, to force the Nazis into making 
a deal with Stalin, which he was figuring on all along. 

The Chairman. In other words, he was trying to put pressure on 
the Nazis throughout the world, to force them to enter into an alliance 
with him ? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

The Chairman. That being the foreign policy of the Communists 
throughout the world, to cooperate with the party line ? 

Mr."ZACK. Yes. 

The Chairman. And when the party line insisted on cooperating 
with Lewis the Communist Party changed its attitude toward Lewis! 

Mr. Zack. Lewis became a gentleman. 

The Chairman. From one of opposition to one of support? 

Mr. Zack. It had nothing to do with anything inside of this 
country. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Mr. Michael Quill? 

Mr. Zack. Mike Quill was a member of the Independent Transport 
Workers Union formed by the Communist Party, which, for reasons 
of camouflage, affiliated with the Trade Union Unity League. Then 
Michael Quill, when the party policy changed and the party ordered 
these unions into the American Federation of Labor, he, with his 
group, went into the American Federation of Labor. But when 
the party policy changed again, to take them out of the American 
Federation of Labor, Michael Quill transferred them again. 

I only remember Michael Quill from one meeting of the central 
body of the Trade Union Unity League. I never had any occasion 
to do any business with him personally, but from what I know 
through party leaders, he is a party member. 

Mr. Whitley. To the best of your knowledge as an active party 
member, you have every reason to believe he is a party member? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Michael Obermeier? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5459 

Mr. Zack. Mike Obermeier is secretary of Local 6 of the Inter- 
national Alliance of Hotel Workers, Bartenders, and so forth. He is 
a party member since the party was formed. 

.Mr. Whitley. Are yon acquainted with Marvyn Rathborne? 

Mr. Zack. No; I am not acquainted with Rathborne, but I heard of 
him while I was in the party as a parly member. I had no dealings 
personally with him as a party member. 

Mr. Whitley. You heard through party circles and channels that 
he was a member? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. He is with the Communications Association? 

Mr. Zack. He is head of it. 

Mr. Whitley. What about Lewis Weinstock, of the Painters 
Union i 

Mr. Zack. Lewis Weinstock is a charter party member. 

Mr. Whitley. And was active throughout the years yon were 
active \ 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with J. Ruben, president of the 
New York Hotel Trades Council? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; he is also a party member from the beginning. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe that the New York Hotel Trades Council 
is an A. F. of L. organization? 

Mr. Zack. Yes: it is an A. F. of L. organization. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with Ben Gold? 

Mr. Zack. Ben Gold is a party member since the party started. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Carey of the Radio and Electrical 
Workers ? 

Mr. Zack. Carey — I know very little of him personally, but I be- 
lieve he came from a group that was originally organized by the 
party in the General Electric plant at Schenectady; my opinion is he 
is a party member, although I do not know from personal experience. 

The Chairman. Let us clear that up a little bit? You believe you 
have good reasons for saying that? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. You see, the United Electrical and Radio Workers, 
of which he was the secretary, was formed out of the Metal Workers' 
Industrial Union and formed into an independent union, organized by 
the party right after it organized the movement. All individuals that 
are known as party members have been admitted, and as leading- 
officers, like Metlas. who is one of the principal organizers; like another 
one. Lustic. and several others, also not much known to the public as 
organizers, they followed all the various switches of policies that the 
party has made. 

So if Carey is not a party member, he certainly takes instructions. 

The Chairman. I see. Have yon finished. Mr. Whitley? 

Mr. Whitley. No; I have not. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Marcel 1 Sherier? 

Mr. Zack. Marcel! Sherier is a member of the party since the be- 
ginning. 

The Chairman. What is his position? 

Mr. Zack. He is. I think, general organizer; he is with the party 
section of that organization. 



5460 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Of that organization ? 

Mr. Zack. That is, the United Artists, Chemists, and Professional 
Workers. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the Artists, Engineers, Chemists, and Tech- 
nicians? 

Now, how about Irving Potashe? 

Mr. Zack. Potashe is a party organizer himself. 

Mr. Whitley. I have already asked you about Benjamin Gold. 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Brown, president of Typographical Union No. 6; do 
you know him? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; Emil Brown. He has been elected frequently as 
president of the Big Six Typographical Union, New York City. " 

And when I was in charge of the party trade-union activities 
Brown was only classed as a fellow traveler. He was not then a 
party member, and I do not know for positive that he is now, but 
the party organization in that union supported him in his candidacy 
for president. 

Mr. Whitley. How about George Addes, of the Automobile 
Workers? Are you acquainted with him? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. Addes I believe is a party member. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know that of your own personal knowledge? 

Mr. Zack. No ; I do not know it only from others. 

The Chairman. You mean from what you heard from other Com- 
munist Party members? 

Mr. Zack. From others, yes. 

Mr. Whitlfy. You qualify your answer to that extent ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know personally but you have that 
information from other members? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How about William Albertson. of the Food 
Workers ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. Albertson is a party member, since, I think, 1924. 

Mr. Whitley. Sam Kramberg; do you know him, Mr. Zack? 

Mr. Zack. Sam Kramberg is the secretary of Hotel Local No. 16, 
also of the International Alliance of Hotel and Culinary Workers. 

The Chairman. What does Albertson do? 

Mr. Zack. Albertson is the secretary, Local No. 302, International 
Alliance of Hotel and Culinary Workers, A. F. of L. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have anything to do with the organization 
of that group ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; yes; while I was in charge of the party trade- 
union policies of the organization I appointed him as the editor 
of the Food Workers, although he is not a Food Worker, later with 
the supprt of the party fractin, became the secretary of that union. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Sam Kramberg. Do you know him, 
Mr. Zack? 

Mr. Zack. Sam Kramberg is the secretary of Hotel Local No. 
16 ; also of the International Alliance of Culinary Workers. He 
was my treasurer while I was secretary of the trade-union move- 
ment and a member of the party since 1923. 

Mr. Whitley. Since 1923? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5461 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I hope to have that list of directors of the C. I. O. 
in a few minutes, Mr. Zack. 

Mr. Zu'K. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Harry Bridges? Do you know any- 
thing about li in 1 '. 

Mr. Zack. Harry Bridges — I never met Harry Bridges, person- 
ally, but Earl Browder, who was in Frisco during the bio- strike 
in 1934, on bis way back to New York, he stopped in Cleveland, 
and he told me that he spent about 4 weeks in Frisco, and the main 
man there for the party is Harry Bridges. 

Mr. Whitley. That was Mr. Browser's own statement to you? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mi'. Whitley. Now you have named a number of unions that the 
party controls and took out of the A. F. of L. and affiliated with 
the C. I. O. 

In addition to those named, can you tell me what the status of 
the following organizations are, Mr. Zack. that is, whether they 
are subject to party control and, if so, to what extent? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The United Electrical Radio and Mechanical Work- 
ers of America? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; that is party controlled. 

Mr. Whitley. It is party controlled? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. Wait just a minute. Let me understand that. 
You mean they have a number of men in key positions and that is 
their method of controlling them; that is what you mean? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. You do not mean they necessarily have a large 
membership ( 

Mr. Z v( k. Ob. no; not at all. 

The Chairman. I want that to be clear. 

Mr. Zack. They probably have only a membership of three or four 
hundred. 

Mr. Yoouiiis. Out of how many? 

Mr. Zack. Out of about forty or fifty thousand they are supposed 
to have. 

Mr. Whitley. That is, they control them through control of the 
key positions? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How about the American Newspaper Guild? 

Mr. Zack. The American Newspaper Guild is not controlled abso- 
lutely by the party, but the party has a number of key individuals 
in it." It is one of the organizations that they will lose control of com- 
pletely, party control, in the near future. 

The Chairman. Their influence, or partial influence, in the guild is 
on account of the fact that they have some keymen in the guild? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Dempsey. Do you know the names of the keymen? 

Mr. Zack. I used to know their names, but I could not remember 
them offhand. You see. it has been many years since I was active. 



5462 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. How about Hey wood Broun? 

Mr. Zack. He was once a member. 

The Chairman. He was once a member. How long ago since he 
has been a member of the party ? 

Mr. Zack. I think the first time he was a party member was back 
in 1928, if I remember rightly. He was a member for, I think, about 
2 years and was dropped out. 

Later on he worked along with them and probably was a member, 
but now he is at odds with them again, it seems. He broke with them 
on account of the new pact. 

Mr. Whitley. What do you know about the affiliation of the State, 
County, and Municipal Workers of America. Mr. Zack? 

Mr. Zack. I am not familiar with that. 

Mr. Whitley. You are not familiar with it ? 

Mr. Zack. No. 

Mr. Whitley. How about the International Longshoremen, headed 
by Harry Bridges? 

Mr. Zack. Well, the International Longshoremen were formed out 
of a branch of the Marine Industrial Workers Union of the Pacific 
coast organization, local union of the International Association of 
Longshoremen, and they became so as a result of the maritime strike. 
The control of the party there is very strong. 

The Chairman. On the west coast, you mean ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. Where do they have control of the International 
Longshoremen's Union? 

Mr. Zack. In Frisco. 

The Chairman. In Frisco. 

Mr. Zack. And thereabouts; not on the east coast. 

The Chairman. But in San Francisco? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. The International Association of Longshoremen 
was an American Federation of Labor organization, still is, but the 
branch on the Pacific Coast disaffiliated from the A. F. of L. and 
is now a part of the C. I. O. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack, what is the status of the International 
Alliance of Hotel. Restaurant, and Culinary Members, Locals 1, 16, 
6, and 302, New York City ? 

Mr. Zack. All those locals are controlled now by the Communist 
Party. 

The way that was effected was the Food Workers Industrial Union 
was a trade-union in the large organization before it went into the 
A. F. of L. and when the party lines changed from within, the 
party got control of these organizations. 

Mr. Whitley. Of course, you qualify all your statements about 
control with the explanation that when you say "control" you mean 
they just controlled the key positions and through their ability to 
control with a very small minority. 

The Chairman. That is. control the policies of the union? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. From the control of the key positions in the 



union 



> 



Mr. Zack. That is right. 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5463 

Mr. Whitley. And you do not mean to suggest that they even 
Lave a very Large number of members who are in the party. 

Mr. Zack. NO. 

The Chairman. From your testimony concerning the large number 
of key positions in the C. I. O., occupied by Communists, how could 
they go about getting rid of them? 

Mr. Zack. How? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Zack. Well, legally, they could not get rid of them until they 
hold an election or a convention and elect other officers, you see. 

The Chairman. That is what I want you to explain. 

Mr. Zack. Yes. For instance in this particular case of the Food 
Workers local that were mentioned: There is quite a strong opposi- 
tion against the Communist Party there now, and 1 am sure that in 
most of these locals in the next elections they will lose control just 
as they lost control of the Painter, when Weinstock was head of the 
Brotherhood of Painters in New York. But in recent years the 
Painters Brotherhood — they were defeated by contrary splits. 

The Chairman. In other words, the majority of the members not 
being Communists, when they are thoroughly aware of the situation 
get rid of them? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; in such unions where they are not yet very strongly 
entrenched. 

But when yon come to a union like the Furriers, to get rid of them, 
I am sure will result in a split in the organization because they are 
so strong they will not he easily dislodged. 

The Chairman. You have named 11 unions in the C. I. O., com- 
pletely dominated by them. 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In those 11 unions how are they going to get rid of 
the control? 

Mr. Zack. Well, I think they could in most of them. 

. The Chairman. In most of the 11 unions? 

Mr. Zack. The 11 unions; they could get rid of them as members 
understand what the whole thing is about, and at the next election 
that will take place, the unions slate of the Communist Party I 
believe will be defeated. 

Mr. Dempsey. Would von s;iv the Furriers is in a different cate- 



gory '. 



Mr. Zack. In the Furriers the Communists are using practically 
the Russian regime methods, in that they are so very strong they do 
not permit the opposition the necessary privileges, legal privileges in 
order to put them out. 

Mr. Whitley. How about. Mr. Zack, the Teachers Union, that is. 
the New York branch, particularly? 

Mr. Zack. Well, that is under party control; they will probably 
lose control of it in the next election. 

Mr. Whitley. How about the Typographical Union, Local No. 6? 

Mr. Zack. Well, they do not really control the union, although 
they elected the president. 



94931—39 vol.9— 14 



5464 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Who is that ; Brown ? 

Mr. Zack. Brown, Emil. That is one of the very democratic 
unions where the membership would not permit anybody to take 
away their rights. 

The Chairman. In other words, if I understood your testimony 
this morning, when you started your organizational activities into 
the several industrial industries, like the steel, automobile workers, 
rubber, there was a scarcity of trained organizers in the C. I. O., and 
the Communist Party had about 2.000 well-trained organizers, and 
the C. I. O. used these organizers to build up its organization. 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, did they do that knowingly; did Lewis and 
his leaders know these men were Communists? 

Mr. Zack. Well, from what I know of officials of that line of 
experience, as John L. Lewis, I would not expect that he was so 
foolish as not to know a thing like that. 

The Chairman. Then why, if he did know that there were 2,000 
Communist agitators, who had caused so much trouble in the past 
and had caused him a lot of trouble, too 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. Why would he then make a deal with them, put 
the key men in positions in the union? How do you account for 
that? * 

Mr. Zvck. Well, most likely for two reasons: First, at that time 
the Communist Party had a policy that was called the democratic 
front, which made it possible for a man like John L. Lewis to assume 
that for a number of years the Communists are going to have a line, 
a policy, with which he can work, you see. 

Secondly, he also assumed that he controlled the United Mine 
Workers, and Sidney Hillman, the Amalgamated Clothing Workers, 
which was the two organizations inside the C. I. O. and which 
have been financing the C. I. O., and in case the Communists, old 
leaders, were asked to work against John L. Lewis and his asso- 
ciates, lie thought that he would be able to put them out. 

The Chairman. That he would always have, whenever the time came 
to try to oust him or to cause him too much trouble — he wanted to have 
power to get rid of them ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; that evidently was the assumption. 

The Chairman. And you think it is not a correct assumption? 

Mr. Zack. I know one thing, the party members can cause a great 
deal of trouble, and that is the thing that is of major importance in the 
long run, and they are not going to allow John L. Lewis to put them 
out in the easy manner that John L. Lewis thinks. 

John L. Lewis should remember that the Communist Party gave 
him the sort of tight in the United Mine Workers that almost put him 
out, and they were organizationally not as strong then as they are now. 

The Chairman. You say they almost put him out. You mean 
Brophy was almost elected? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. How much difference was there between Brophy 's 
vote and Lewis? 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 54^5 

Mr. Zack. You see, John L. Lewis happened to have the privilege of 
counting the votes. 

The Chairman. I see. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know Hillman? 

Mr. Zack. Yes: I know Sidney Hillman. He never was a member 
of the Communist Party or affiliated with it, but he collaborated for a 
time with the Communist Party in reference to a number of issues. 

Mr. Voorhis. What about the situation at the present time? 

Mr. Zack. At the present time. I do not think that Sidney Hillman 
collaborates with the Communist Party. I think the Communist Party 
collaborates with Sidney Hillman. 

Mr. Voorhis. So far as Amalgamated Clothing Workers' Union is 
concerned, you would not say, would you, that Sidney Hillman had 
collaborated with them about the matters 

Mr. Zack. Of his own union? 

Mr. Voorhis. Yes. 

Mr. Zack. Of his own union — he had enough experience with the 
Communist Party not to tolerate any control by them, and the same 
thing with John L. Lewis. 

Mr. Voorhis. I understand at one time there was very strong oppo- 
sition ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. When they attempted to dominate the Amalgamated 
Clothing Workers? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. He would not permit anybody to dominate it. 

The Chairman. Through the C. I. O. you say the Communist 
Pariv greatly extended its influence in the unions? 

Mr. Zack. Oh, yes; they never had that much influence in indus- 
try; in fact, they did not dream of having that much influence in 
industry for a long time. 

The Chairman. Through what other means have they extended 
their influence? What about the front organizations; were they able 
to extend their influence to front organizations? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; the front organizations are used for the purpose 
of extending their influence; yes, in industry. It is a sort of inter- 
locking directorate for supporting each other to attain certain 
objectives, and in this case they are interested mainly in influencing 
strong organizations in industry. 

Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Zack, I would like to ask you a general question. 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mi'. Voorhis. You have testified here with regard to a number of 
labor organizations, as to what the situation was with regard to 
them, and I would like to ask you to tell the committee on what 
you are basing your testimony. I mean how can you testify to such 
and such a thing in regard to many organizations? 

Mr. Zack. T base it mainly on my own experience in this activity. 
You must remember that I was one of the main trade-union 

Mr. Voorhis (interposing). I understand that. 

Mr. Zack. Organinzing for about 14 years. 



l &* 



Mr. Voorhis. I am referring to what has happened recently, in 
the last few years. 



5466 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. You mean since he has been out of the part}- 1 
Mr. Vooehis. Yes. 

The Chairman. Since you left the Communist Party in 1934. 
Mr. Zack. Well, suppose you specify anything concrete. 
Mr. Voorhis. Well, for example, how can you tell — and I am not 
questioning your testimony, but I think something ought to be in 
the record — how can you tell that a certain union, for instance, in 
San Francisco, is dominated by the Communist Party? 

Mr. Zack. Well, I can only tell that in the following manner: 
That this organization became a force out there through the 1934 
strike. 

Mr. Voorhis. Yes. 

Mr. Zack. The party was the chief engineer in the affiliation 
work; and from the party leaders, and I also know that the main 
individuals there, that act in that organization, were formerly mem- 
bers of the Maritime Industrial Union. Outside of that, of course, 
I cannot tell. 

Mr. Voorhis. I see. 

Mr. Zack. I mean, I never was out there personally; don't know 
any of the local individuals, but I know a majority of the individuals 
who were formerly maritime workers in that section. 

Mr. Whitley. And you know from your experience, as a Com- 
munist Party member, occupying certain positions, how they control 
the union? 

Mr. Zack. Well, if they occupy not one but several key positions. 
For instance, if you have in Typographical Union No. G, not only the 
president — when they have the president that does not mean they 
necessarily have control. But if you have the president and the 
secretary, or the. secretary-treasurer, and so on. and several key posi- 
tions, organizers, several delegates in the field who every day at- 
tended to complaints, then I would know they had control. 

Mr. Whitley. There would not be any doubt then ? 

Mr. Zack. Of the organization ; no. 

Mr. Whitley. I have that list of directors here, Mr. Zaek, and I 
will ask you about them. 

The Chairman. Suppose you read the ones that he has already 
testified were Communists, in the C. I. O. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Lewis Allen Bern of the Automobile 
Workers of America; do you know anything about him? 

Mr. Zack. Of the Automobile Workers ? 

Mr. Whitley. No; that is Architects, Engineers, Chemists and 
Technicians. 

Mr. Zack. No: I don't knoAv this individual— I don't know if I 
do ; I am not certain. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Donald Henderson, of the Cannery, Agri- 
cultural, Packing, and Allied Workers? 

Mr. Zack. Henderson I know little about, but from what I know 
from other leaders of the party, he is a party member. 

Mr. Whitley. You know that from other party members? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You have already testified concerning Mervyn Rath- 
borne. I believe. 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5467 

Mr. Whitley. You testified that he was a patty member? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Tlic Chairman. Lei us gel to the ones that he has not testified about. 

Mr. Whitley. Julius Emspak, of the Electrical. Radio, and Machine 
Workers \ 

Mr. Zaok. Yes; Emspak, T believe, is a party member, although per- 
sonally 1 had no business with him. I know it from other party 
leaders. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, from what other [tarty leaders have 
told you in their conversations, you have reason to believe that he is a 
member? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Morris Muster, United Furniture Workers of Amer- 
ica ( 

Mr. Zack. I do not know Muster, although that organization, I 
know, is fully controlled by the party. 

The Chairman. Fully controlled by Communists? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Reid Robinson? 

Mr. Zack. No; I don't know him, but from what I do know of 
him he is not a member of the Communist Partj^. 

Mr. Whitley. Lewis Merrill? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Of the Office and Professional Workers of America ? 

Mr. Zack. That is right. Merrill is a party member, from what I 
know from party leaders. 

Mr. Whitley. H. C. Fremming? 

Mr. Zack. No ; he is not a party member. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, Mr. Fremming has been one 
of the strongest opponents of communism in the labor field; don't 
you know that? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. He is not only a party member; I think he is an 
opponent. 

The Chairman. Very much an opponent of communism ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know anything about Sam Wolchok? 

Mr. Zack. No ; he is not a party member. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. How many of the directors are Communists? 
What is the total of those that he has testified were Communists? 

Mr. Whitley. I will have to check that up. 

The Chairman. Make that computation, so that we can have it. 

Mr. Whitley. I will have it tabulated right away. Did I ask 
you about Powers Hapgood, Mr. Zack? 

Mr. Zack. No; you did not. Powers Hapgood was a party mem- 
ber. Whether he is now, I do not know. 

Mr. Whitley. What are his affiliations? 

Mr. Zack. He used to be one of the leaders of the United Mine 
Workers. At the present time I think he is the secretary of the 
United Shoe Workers, affiliated with the O I. O. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you acquainted with Jim Meyerscough? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; I am. Meverscough is a party member, ever 
since 1923 or 1924. 



5468 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. What are his affiliations? 

Mr. Zack. He used to be — he ran once for president in the United 
Mine Workers against John L. Lewis, but at the present time I think 
he is just a party functionary, either in Pittsburgh or down in Penn- 
sylvania. 

Mr. Whitley. You are acquainted with Pat Toohey? 

Mr. Zack. I am. 

Mr. Whitley. What is his status, Mr. Zack? 

The Chairman. What is his position? 

Mr. Zack. Pat Toohey used to be the leader of the party in the 
anthracite area, of the United Mine Workers. At the present time he 
is a party functionary, I believe. 

Mr. Whitley. And John Steuben ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; John Steuben used to be one of my assistants in 
the Trade Union Unity League Council. Later on he was an organ- 
izer for the steel workers' organizing committee, I think in the Youngs- 
town area. What he is now, I do not know. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack, according; to the list we read off there, Mr. 
Chairman, identified eight of the directors of the C. I. O. as being- 
Communist Party members. 

The Chairman. How many directors are there? 

Mr. Whitley. Forty, I believe. Now, Mr. Chairman. I would like 
at this time, unless there are some further questions, to have Mr. Zack 
discuss the relations between the Comintern and the Soviet Govern- 
ment and the party in this country, and particularly with reference 
to the split in the 'Communist Party in 1928. at which time he was 
over there acting as liaison man on behalf of the Foster group. 

The Chairman. Well, before we ^et off of this trade-union business, 
are there any questions that you gentlemen want to ask ? 

Mr. Voorhis. I want to ask just one question. Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Zack, I would like to ask you whether you do not 
feel that, one of the most serious features of the attempted Communist 
control of labor organizations is not the following: That we all know 
that there are many cases where there is need for improvement of con- 
ditions in various groups of workers in different industries, and if it 
can be indicated, whether with truth or not, that there is Communist 
influence in the labor organizations, and attempts to correct those 
things, then the very best argument against the efforts of that labor 
organization, and the most effective argument, has been used, has it 
not? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. And that argument is liable to be used even where 
it does not apply, provided there is any substance to it, in any place ; 
is not that true? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In other words, Mr. Zack, the unfortunate situa- 
tion with reference to the Communist penetration of the labor unions 
and of other movements is that it furnishes opponents of legitimate 
labor activities an opportunity to classifv evervone in the labor 
movement as a Communist, which they readily do? 

Mr. Zack. Right. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5469 

The Chairman. In other words, they are likely to give out the 
impression that everybody that does not agree with them is a Com- 
munist ; is not that true? 

Mr. Zack. Quite correct. 

The Chairman. And, for instance, in reference to these peace socie- 
ties, right now there are many sincere and honest people in this 
country who have different views on this embargo question? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. But there is a danger that there will be those 
who will say that those who are in favor of the embargo are Com- 
munists, and on the other hand those who want to repeal it are 
war mongers? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. I mean this thing of name-calling. That is the 
great danger in this thing, is it not? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Xow, as a matter of fact, while the Communists 
have a very dominant position in the C. I. O., that does not mean 
at all that a majority of the C. I. O. members are Communists or 
sympathetic to Communism, does it? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, I know. They do not even control the C. I. O. 
They are just in a pivotal position. 

The Chairman. To what extent do you think the Communists 
control in the C. I. O., that is, the policies or the activities of the 
C. I. O.? 

Mr. Zack. Well, they control the policies and activities of the 
C. I. O. in a whole number of very important industries. Outside 
of that, I imagine they have no control of the C. I. O. 

The Chairman. Xow. tell me this: Have the Communists in the 
labor unions been responsible for many unauthorized and sitdown 
strikes ? 

Mr. Zack. Oh. certainly. When they had the policy of class against 
class, and during the worst period of the crisis, well, they naturally, 
for their own political purposes, would pick up a grievance and drive 
it to its extreme, even when it could be compromised. 

The Chairman. And again, that does not mean that there were 
not jii-t grounds for complaint ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; there were plenty of reasons for complaint. 

The Chairman. And even conceding that there was just ground for 
complaint, the Communists would prolong the strike beyond the period 
that was necessary for the settlement of the grievance '. 

Mr. Zack. Yes. I will give you an illustration. Right here in 
front of the Congress, back in 1932 or 1933, I believe, a number of 
Congressmen offered to take up their demands on the floor of Congress; 
but the idea of the C. P. at thai time was to expose Congress as a tool 
of the class enemy, and they would not even accept the offer; whereas, 
lor instance, later on. when they had the policy of the Democratic 
front — well, they would abandon a light, even a justified fight, for a 
grievance, in order to get after the politicians. 

The Chairman. Now tell me this: Was the sit-down strike tech- 
nique a Communisl technique? 

Mr. Zack. No. 



5470 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. It was not ? 

Mr. Zack. No. The sit-down strike arose out of sheer desperation in 
places where the workers could not strike in what we would call a 
legitimate manner. For instance, in Hungary they could not strike. 
However, conditions were so terrific that they had to do something, 
so they remained in the mines. It was passive resistance. They would 
not go out of the mines. 

The Chairman. What about the United States now, taking it from 
Europe to the United States? 

Mr. Zack. The idea spread to the United States and to other coun- 
tries, because at that time it fitted into the situation. There was a 
tremendous mass unemployment, and the workers that worked inside 
the plants were afraid of having their jobs taken at once by the great 
mass of unemployed outside, so they figured, "Well, we have to do 
something, but we will stick with the machines; we won't abandon 
them, so that scabs can't go and take our jobs." And that was how 
the idea spread. 

The Chairman. What part did the Communists play in the sit- 
down strikes and the unauthorized strikes? 

Mr. Zack. Well, after the thing became popular amongst the 
masses, they jumped on the bandwagon and sponsored it. Originally, 
when it first spread to France, they opposed it, because they were 
practicing the policy of alliance with certain employers' groups, and 
it was very inconvenient for them to be put in such a position. But 
after tremendous masses got behind these ideas, then they jumped 
on the band wagon in order to retain their influence over the masses. 

Mr. Mason. Right there, the sit-down strike technique came into 
full fruition in France, and was so successful, and appealed to the 
masses so well, that the Communist leaders of the C. I. O. here intro- 
duced that technique as a result of its wide spread in France ; is that 
right ? 

Mr. Zack. Oh, no; I beg to differ with you, Congressman. 

Mr. Mason. That is what I understood. 

Mr. Zack. I know that is the newspaper version, but it is not the 
correct one. 

Mr. Mason. Well, we want to get the correct one. 

Mr. Zack. The sit-down strikes spread in the automobile industry 
because the employers had resisted systematically and persistently all 
attempts at organization. They had a very efficient spy system 
inside, and there was mass unemployment all around, and the auto- 
mobile workers would not take the risk of going to union meetings 
for fear of being spotted and then discharged individually. So when 
this idea that spread from Europe about sit-down strikes hit the 
public here, they grabbed on that idea. They said that was the idea 
for them ; that they would sit right next to their machines until the 
employers granted them the right to organize, and certain improve- 
ments in conditions. The C. I. O. leaders, as far as I know, simply 
threw up their hands at the proposition. They did not know what 
to do with it. They did not dare to deny it, and they did not dare 
to sponsor it ; but they, of course, took advantage of it for the purpose 
of organizaion. 

The Chairman. Now, what part have Communists played in strikes 
that have occurred in the United States since the time you began your 
affiliation with the Communist Party up until the time you went out of 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 547] 

ii ! Did they play a prominenl part in starting strikes or in continuing 
strikes, or what was the situation with reference to that? 

Mr. Za< k. Well, when they had a policy of, let me say, ultra-left, 
then they fostered a strike under every condition, irrespective. It did 
not matter whether the situation was ripe for a strike or was not ripe 
for a si rike. 

Mr. Voorhis. And kepi it going as long as possible? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; and kept it going for the maximum time. Why? 
Because they figured that that was the kind of condition that would 
best serve their policy at that time. When later on they switched it 
around to get the various governments to make an anti-Nazi front, 
in order not to annoy their new allies, they would even discourage 
strikes where strikes would be in place from a humanitarian point of 
view. 

The Chairman. Let me ask you this: Mr. Browder testified before 
this committee that there were a great many intellectual people, as I 
recall, in the Communist Party; that it appealed to members of the 
so-called intelligentsia. 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is that true? 

Mr. Zack. Oh, yes. 

The Chairm \x. Just what was that type of people? 

Mr. Zack. Well, during this democratic-front policy lots of unem- 
ployed intellectuals thought that this was very convenient for them to 
get into the kind of more or less nice-looking and nice-sounding organi- 
zations, and so the party made tremendous headway amongst that cate- 
gory — aspiring professionals and intellectuals that did not have any- 
where to go, perhaps, at the time, or who could gain prominence by 
getting the support of the organizations controlled by the party. 

Mr. Voorhis. Anybody who was anti-Fascist or anti-Nazi could be 
in it? 

Mr. Zack. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack, were you in Moscow about the end of 
1929? 

Mr. Zack. I was. 

Mr. W^hitley. As a matter of fact, you were there from 1927 to 
about 1930, were you not? 

Mr. Zack. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. And while you were in Moscow, did a serious in- 
ternal situation in the nature of a factional fight develop in the 
Communist Party in the United States? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you describe that situation to the committee, 
and how it was handled from the Moscow end? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mi-. Whitley. We have already heard testimony with reference t-> 
the handling of it from this end. and would like to have you de- 
scribe particularly the situation from the other end. 

Mr. Zack. Well, 1 was in Moscow then, and I was a member <>i 
some of the important committees of the Comintern which directed 
the activities in the Americas and in England, and so on. In the 
American party at that time the control was a group now known as 
the Lovestone — or since known as the Love-tone group, with Jay 
Lovestone as the general secretary. I represented in Moscow what 



5472 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

was then known as the Foster group — that is the gentleman that testi- 
fied here yesterday — and I was very much engrossed in that fight, 
for the purpose of putting Lovestone out of office. 

Mr. Voorhis. About what year was this, Mr. Zack? 

Mr. Zack. That was in 1928 and 1929. 

Mr. Whitley. That is, you were opposed to Lovestone and in 
favor of the Foster faction? 

Mr. Zack. That is right. So I acted as their unofficial represen- 
tative inside of the Comintern. I looked over all the reports sent 
over from the United States, either by courier or otherwise, and sent. 
back reports, and so on. Now, during the same time there was a 
fight in the Russian Communist Party between the Stalin group and 
what then was the Bukharin group. Now, Lovestone was accused 
of the sin of lining himself up with the wrong faction, that is, the 
Bukharin group. Bukharin then was the president of the Communist 
International ; but in reality Stalin, who was in control of the Com- 
munist Party of Russia — Stalin controlled the Communist Interna- 
tional also. Now, let me explain to you how this works, before I 
come to the question asked by Mr. Whitley. 

The Comintern, to explain to you the physical situation there, has 
a building of about half a block in size. In there work about four or 
five hundred employees, and all these employees are paid out of the 
Russian treasury. So are all the delegates that are sent by the 
Comintern to the various countries. 

Mr. Voorhis. Just a minute. Do you mean to say that the em- 
ployees of the Comintern are paid by the Russian Government or 
by the Russian Communist Party? 

Mr. Zack. Well, the Russian Communist Party 

Mr. Voorhis (interposing). I understand; but I mean technically 
by whom are they paid? 

Mr. Zack. The money, you mean? 

Mr. Voorhis. Yes. 

Mr. Zack. Oh. the money is obtained out of the Russian treasury. 

Mr. Voorhis. It is? 

Mr. Zack. Oh, yes; sure. And all these employees are paid from 
that source, and that source is controlled by whomever controls the 
Communist Party in Russia, So, for instance, the moment that 
Stalin had control of the Communist Party of Russia, he could 
command in the Comintern, irrespective of whether Bukharin was 
>till formerly the president or not, because not only are all the 
Technical functionaries in the Comintern building paid out of the 
Russian treasury, but all the chief political functionaries in charge 
of the various subcommittees and subdivisions inside of the Comin- 
tern are all Russians, members of the Russian Communist Party, or, 
if they are non-Russians, which is the case with a very few of them, 
they have beeen obliged to become members of the 'Russian Com- 
munist Party, and they must carry out what the Russian Communist 
Party decides. So, since Stalin was in control of the Russian Com- 
munist Party, he controlled and commanded materially every em- 
ployee, whether of a political or technical type, inside the Comintern 
building, and he also commanded every delegate sent from Moscow 
to every country throughout this earth. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5473 

So Bukharin remained thereafter with the honorary title of presi- 
dent of the Communist International and with no actual authority. 
but it served the purpose at that time of Stalin to continue to use 
Bukharin as a punching bag; so he allowed him to remain president 
of the Communisl Internationa] even beyond the time necessary 
from the point of view of his control. Now, then, if you have this 
picture, yon will be able to understand the American situation a 
little better. 

Mr. Voorhis. In other words, any organization from another na- 
tiou that was affiliated with the Comintern was affiliated with a sup- 
posedly international organization, all of whose employees and 
functionaries, however, are paid from the Russian treasury, and 
most of whom are actual members of the Russian Communist Party? 

Mr. Zack. That is right. 

The Chairman. You have not gotten down yet to your- question, 
though. 

Mr. Whitley. That is right. 

The Chairman. This is just preliminary. Let us get down to 
your question. 

Mr. Zack. You see, the initial organization, so-called, of the Comin- 
tern, when it comes down to the concrete, is not an international 
organization: because, for instance. Foster is a member of the execu- 
tive committee of the Communist International, but he is never in 
Moscow, or he is only there occasionally, and even if he is there, he 
or any other like him, from any other party, is not in a physical 
condition to control anything there. Those that actually control 
there are what is known as the small commission. You see, Foster 
is also a member, with Browder, of the presidium of the Comintern. 
Well, that is another beautiful name, but the presidium of the Comin- 
tern does not control anything, either. The ones that control the 
actual organizational machinery of the Communist International are 
the so-called small commission, a body of three individuals, and those 
three individuals are all Russians and members of the Russian Com- 
munist Party. They command the every-day routine technical and 
political work inside of the Comintern building, and all the delegates 
of the Comintern in foreign countries; and these three individuals 
are >elected by Stalin, and Stalin has a battery of private secretaries 
whose function is to watch the foreign situation — China, the 
Americas. Germany, France. England — and who report to him per- 
sonally anything of any consequence, and have nothing else to do 
but that; and through them and through his chief political clerks, 
who are these three members of the commission, he commands and 
controls absolutely everything inside of that Comintern building, 
and everything else outside of the Comintern building that he cares 
to control in any of the foreign parties outside of Russia. 

Mr. Whitley. What are the names of the members of that control 
commission \ 

Mr. Zack. There used to be three individuals on that commission. 
The name of one at that time was Piatnitzky. Another one was 
Manuelsky. who is now the general secretary; and the third one was 
Kuusinen. These three were the small commission, and they are the 
ones — they are really the Comintern as long as Stalin permits them 
to be. 



5474 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

That is the inside workings of this machinery. 

The Chairman. In other words, it is just a lot of camouflage to 
cover up the fact that Stalin is the absolute dictator in Russia, is 
it not? The rest of it is camouflage to deceive the public? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. It is window dressing. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, Mr. Zack, any statement on the 
part of the Soviet Government that it has nothing to do with the 
Communist International, again, is just camouflage? 

Mr. Zack. Yes; it is like, for instance, if Hitler would say he 
doesn't control the bund. That would be about the same thing, you 
see. 

The Chairman. I agree with you on that. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, go ahead with this description of the split 
of the American party. 

Mr. Zack. Now, these three individuals are the ones also that de- 
cide on the subsidies that go for various kinds of activities in for- 
eign countries. The question of subsidies is decided on the basis 
of what Russia considers of political importance for itself at the 
particular moment. For instance, at one time they were interested 
in China, so the bulk of their subsidies went to China ; another time 
they were interested particularly in Germany, and the bulk of their 
subsidies went there — I mean for foreign political reasons of their 
own sort. 

Of late, that is, the last few years, they were interested chiefly in 
France and the United States, you see, and I am sure that consid- 
erable of the subsidies went into those countries. 

Now this gives an idea of the inside wheels of this thing as they 
actually are. 

Now, then, if we come to the American party situation: Officially, 
Lovestone and his group, which was a sort of democratic Bolsheviki 
group — to the extent that you could associate democracy with bol- 
shevism at all- — they were in control of the party. Stalin was not 
supposed to act against them officially, because Stalin was only the 
general secretary of the Russian Communist Party; he was not sup- 
posed to be a ranking official in the Comintern; but, unofficially, 
he would tell, for instance — he would tell Foster or me, while I was 
there — he would say, "Well, you can do what you want in the 
United States," that is, fight the established leadership. Officially 
he would disavow anything ; unofficially he encouraged us to fight the 
leadership in the American Communist Party and wear them down 
and break them down until the job is ready for, say, an official 
operation. Now, when the official operation was about prepared for, 
then Stalin instructed the Comintern to send a telegram to the 
United States, to Lovestone, that they want a delegation to come to 
Moscow from the American party in order to discuss the conditions, 
and they sent officially a cablegram to us, the opposition, saying 
that we must lay olf from all activity against the Lovestone group 
and recognize them as the leadership, and so on, and so forth. 

So when I read that telegram, I went to one of Stalin's secretaries 
and I said, "What is the idea?'' They said : 

Never mind; forget it. We had to send that telegram in order that Love- 
stone would send a delegation to Moscow, believing we will recognize him when 
he comes over here. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5475 

Well, Lovestone was foolish enough to take this cablegram hook, 
line, and sinker. He came over with a big delegation — Lovestone, 
Gitlow, that yon had as a witness. Bedacht, Mother Bloor, and so on, 
and so forth. Well, when we were over there, they said, they told lis: 

Now the sky is the limit in the United Slates; that is. the opposition can 
go about tearing down the official leadership at their pleasure. 

Meanwhile, they kept the delegation in Moscow with many sessions 
which they had. They had formed a special committee on the Ameri- 
can question, of which Joe Stalin, Molotov, Kaganovich, and several 
others were members of. They dragged them out for 2 or 3 months 
to give the opposition in the United States an opportunity to further 
tear down the leadership of Lovestone; then they finally made a 
decision, of course, against Lovestone. 

Lovestone, if he was to behave, was to be sent as a Comintern 
delegate to India for 2 years, and, if after that he is considered a 
good hoy. he will be allowed to stay in Moscow 3 or 4 years and then 
maybe be sent back to the United States. 

Meanwhile, they were going to get control of the American party. 
Browder, who is now general secretary, was called from China pur- 
posely as a sort of dark horse (he had not been involved in the 
factional situation) to be put in control of the Communist Party in 
the United States. 

Mr. Whitley. "Who suggested Mr. Browder as a good possibility 
for that office \ 

Mr. Zack. Well, it was Foster that was first suggested, but he was 
too much involved in the factional situation; so I suggested Browder 
as a dark horse and they thought that was a good idea. So that they 
called Browder back from China. He stayed in Moscow about 6 
weeks: then he was sent back to the United States with all those who 
were willing to accept the decision of the Comintern. Lovestone 
and several others were, however, held hack in Moscow: because, 
if you are with them, you can get a vise just like that [snapping 
fingers], in 5 minutes: if you are not with them, you have to go 
t hrough the regular routine: they send you from one office to the other 
and it may take you anywhere from 1 to 6 weeks to get a vise to get 
out. of Russia. 

So, while everybody who was in favor of the decision sponsored by 
Stalin went back to the United Slates. Lovestone and the others were 
kept in Moscow and at that time Stalin was willing, if Lovestone 
would get control of the Daily Worker — Stalin was willing to put up 
enough money to create another daily paper in order to ruin Love- 
stone's hold upon the Daily Worker. Well, as it happened, this was 
not uecessary. The following that Lovestone had when they heard 
thai Moscow was against Lovestone and that naturally all the funds 
and patronage and everything else would go on the side of those 
favored by Moscow, why they quit Lovestone and he remained only 
with a -mall group, and Stalin remained in control of the party, and 
evi !• since then Browder is the General Secretary. 

Mr. Whitley. And at the time this factional fight first started in 
the party in the United States, what percentage of the membership 
was with the Lovestone faction? 

Mr. Zack. ( )h. from 70 to 80 percent. 



5476 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. He had a large majority of the membership with 
him? 

Mr. Zack. He did, yes. 

Mr. Whitley. But in spite of that, by the methods you have de- 
scribed, he was put out and Stalin's hand-picked man, Browder, was 
put in charge? 

Mr. Zack. Correct, yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did I understand you to say earlier in your testi- 
mony that the principal sin Lovestone had committed, and for which 
he was removed from American leadership, was that he approved or 
sympathized with the wrong Russian leader? 
' Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. It had nothing to do with his activities or the political 
conditions in this country ? 

Mr. Zack. That is right. 

Mr. YVhitley. His sympathies were with the wrong leadership in 
Russia ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes — it had nothing to do with the conditions in the 
United States at all. 

Mr. Whitley. And, for that reason, he was strong-armed out of 
his position of leadership of the party? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, while Lovestone and his lieutenants in his 
group were being held in Moscow, was there a convention held in 
this country and called, at which the leadership was changed? 

Mr. Zack. No. There was a delegate sent by the Comintern. Well, 
please note when I say '"Comintern" on any important question, that 
means Stalin. In this case, the delegate was an individual hand 
picked by Stalin with whom I had some business during this factional 
tight in Moscow — a fellow that called himself here "Williams," but it 
was the same individual that Krivitsky mentioned in his articles that 
took Krivitsky's place in France after he was removed. 

Mi-. Whitley. After Krivitsky was removed? 

Mr. Zack. After Krivitsky was removed. This individual came 
here as a delegate fully authorized to carry out the new decision and to 
clean out all the Lovestone following inside of the Communist Party, 
completely, root and branch, from the unit up to the top committee. 
And he slaved here about a year or a year and a half for no other pur- 
pose but to do exactly that. 

The party convent ion was called after all possible opposition had 
been eliminated and thrown out. and then the party convention was 
called and. of course, the party convention then was a mere ritual 
approving the decision made in Moscow. 

Mr. Voorhis. I would like to know : What do you suppose Mr. Foster 
meant when he said 98 percent of the members of the American party 
were against Lovestone? Did he have reference to this time when this 
convention was called, after the work of this delegate? 

Mr. Zack. That is right. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Zack has so much testimony we cannot 
possibly finish with him this afternoon, because lie has a great many 
other phases he has not touched upon. 

Mr. Whitley. He has a great many other subjects that he can dis- 
cuss fully. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5477 

The Chairman. Before we gel on a new subject, Mr. Zack, there arc 
jus( a few questions I have to ask you, and then the other members, 
probably, will have sonic questions to ask. 

Yon. of course, for a good many years were acquainted with the to|> 
people who were in the Communist Party, were von not '. 

Mr. Zack. That is fight. 

The Chairman. Von have met them in their sections, and so on. and 
mi forth '. 

Mr. Zack. That is right. 

The Chairman. Yon know the charge that is made by a great man? 
organizations in the country to the effect that the bulk of the Commu 
nist membership are Jews; that Judiasm and Communism are identi- 
cal and that in the United States the real factor behind it are the Jews? 

Mr. Zack. i es. 

The Chairman. Now, what are the facts about that \ Yon have 
been telling us and I thing giving us pretty frank statements; now 
what are the facts about that \ 

Mr. Zack. Well. I think out of the total membership of the Com- 
munist Party there is about 20 percent that are Jewish; and amongst 
the upper group of leaders, I think the Jewish is about 30 percent. 

The Chairman. The upper group is about 30 percent? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

The Chairman. What type of Jews are they that belong, as a 
whole; are they of the poorer class? 

Mr. Zack. "Well, they are mostly skilled workers and the small 
middle class. 

Mr. Mason. Would yon say that most of them are not what we 
usually consider orthodox Jews, but they are unorthodox Jews who 
are members of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Zack. Yes: unorthodox, naturally. 

Mr. Mason. They could not be members of the Communist Party 
if they were orthodox Jews? 

Mr. Zack. No. Orthodox Jews do not join the Communist Party: 
oh, no. 

The Chairman. Now. Browder said that the greatest member- 
ship — they enjoyed the greatest membership increase from the year 
L935 until recently '. 

Mr. Zack. That is right. 

The Chairman. How do you account for this enormous growth, 
according to their statements, from 1935, before and prior to this pact 
announcement ( 

Mr. Zack. Well. I believe they exaggerate their growth, but there 
was a considerable growth; I know that. Well, that is to be ac- 
counted for by the fact that they had a policy at the time which was 
rather popular with a large circle of elements that wanted to do all 
kind- of repairing in the social structure and who thought that the 
Communis! Party could be used as a vehicle for that purpose, you 
see. These people thought that in the Communist Party they have 
an element which is a driving force to achieve that, you 'see: so they 
hooked themselves up to it in much larger numbers than would have 
been the case otherwise. 



5478 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Now, do you know anything about the finances; 
do you know of cash money sent from Eussia to the United States, 
yourself, in recent years ? 

Mr. Zack. Well, I only know from — well, let me explain this from, 
let us say, my own experience. As I said before, I was a delegate of 
the Comintern to South America. Well, the procedure in this case 
is that I, as a delegate, would have to be informed what the budget 
is for, let us say, the country that I am assigned to. The budget 
is discussed on the basis of the political interest Russia may have at 
that time in that particular country and, within that country, in cer- 
tain industries. So, let us say, they would decide the budget is 
$25,000. Let us say it is a small country, you see. Now, this $25,000 
would be put at the disposal of the Comintern delegate, you see. 
He would be given certain instructions as to how to spend it, you 
see; let us say one-third upon organizing the transportation workers, 
the maritime workers, and so on; another third for organizing the 
oil workers, chemical workers, and so forth. All right; so that 
money is put at his disposal with certain instructions as to how to 
spend it ; then it is at his discretion as to how he distributes it. 

Now, take a party like the American party, let us say; they would 
say that "due to the importance of the situation, the possibility of 
getting the United States into war together with Russia against 
Japan, it would be necessary to stimulate public sentiment." So they 
would decide to finance the creation of several additional daily 
papers, you see, and the money for that would be put forward by 
them, with the understanding that the party must strive, within a 
year, to cover out of its own revenue at least 50 percent of the ex- 
penses of that paper, you see, 

I know when they authorized the publication of the Daily Worker 
in England, they did not have — the British party did not have a 
cent, and the Daily Worker in England was financed for 5 years 
almost exclusively out of the Russian treasury. And the Daily 
Worker in this country was financed for the first 10 years, at the 
begining, more than two-thirds, and later on one-half, and later on 
not less than one-third out of the subsidies given in Russia. 

The Chairman. Would those subsidies come over here in cash % 

Mr. Zack. Well, the subsidies came here in various ways. They 
are either authorizations to appropriate money that has been raised 
here for different purposes, you see? 

The Chairman. You mean by the local ( onimunists— by the Com- 
munists in the United States? 

Mr. Zack. No. Assuming, let us say. you have a thing like Amtorg, 
which does lots of business. ' All right. So, let us say, the Comintern 
authorizes a budget for the United States of a half million dollars for 
1939. Well, that half million is assigned to the Communist Party 
out of whatever resources the Russian Government commands in the 
United States at that time, you see, whether they be of a commercial 
nature or of some of these rackets that Dubrowsky spoke about, and so 
on. If that money is not available, why then it is assigned directly 
from Moscow— usually, first, to a European country. For instance, 
it used to be assigned' to Berlin, before the Nazis; later on, to Paris, 
then sent here. It is not sent directly from Russia here, you see ; it 
is sent first to another country and from there here. It is sent to a 
European center first. 



UN-AMERIGAiq PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5479 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack, while you wore the Comintern delegate to 
South America, how did yon receive your funds from the Comintern; 
through what source ? 

Mr. Zack. Through Earl Browder. 

Mr. Whitley. They sent them to Earl Browder and he transferred 
them to you in South America '. 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And he made regular remittances to you while you 
were down there over a period of a year and a half? 

Mr. Zack. Well, as a matter of fact. I was assigned about $5,000 to 
~!>end for a period of 6 months — the first 6 months; and. as a matter 
of fact. I did not receive a cent of the $5,000. Some of the grafters 
1 hat handled the money in between took it. The only thing I received 
was my salary and traveling expenses, and later on somebody even 
chiseled in on that and I was not getting the salary except in part. 

Later on. when I was already back in the United States, one day 
Earl Browder called me to his office and gave me a thousand dollars' 
worth of receipts to sign for the money that I was supposed to have 
received while I was in South America. So I said. '"Well, I never 
got it : what is the idea ; I would not sign these." So he says, "Well, we 
have been good friends for such a long time, you would not want to 
put me in trouble on account of a trifle like that?" So I says, "All 
light; one trifle is as good as another. You arrange for the return 
of my wife and kid out of Russia the next time you go there and 
arrange that their expenses be paid, and I will sign you the receipts." 
I signed the. receipts, but I never got my wife and kid back, you see. 

Mr. Whitley. How many receipts were there ; do you recall ? 

Mr. Zack. $1,000. There were about eight receipts. 

Mr. Whitley. Eight receipts covering about $1,000? 

Mr. Zack. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that just before Mr. Browder was planning to 
go to Moscow? 

Mr. Zack. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he state why he wanted a receipt at that par- 
ticular time? 

Mr. Zack. Well, you see, they expected a certain amount of account- 
ing for the funds that are sent out, you see. 

Mr. Whitley. And he, in anticipation of having to account for 
these funds 

Mr. Zack. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Supposedly transmitted to you, wanted your receipt 
that you had gotten it? 

Mr. Zack. Correct. 

Mr. Whitley. But you had not received the funds ? 

Mr. Zack. That is right. 

The Chairman. Now suppose we stop there and maybe the members 
of the committee have some questions to ask. 

Mr. Whitley. I have only one other thing which very logically fits 
in here. I would like to have Mr. Zack identify some of the Comintern 
representatives who have been sent to this country and have worked 
in this country. 

The Chairman. All right. 

94931—39 — vol. 9 15 



5480 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Zack, will you name some of the Comintern 
representatives — or perhaps I will name some that have been men- 
tioned previously and see if you can identify them. 

Mr. Zack. All right, that is better; my memory for names is not 
good. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether there was a Comintern repre- 
sentative who was sent to this country by the name of Pepper — John 
Pepper? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. John Pepper's real name is Joseph Pogany. He 
used to be the editor of the social democratic daily paper in Budapest, 
before the present Government was established there, about 12 or 15 
years ago. 

Mr. Whitley. How long was he in this country as a Comintern 
representative ? 

Mr. Zack. He was in this country as a Comintern representative, 
I think, for about 4 years. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he known to Mr. Browder and to Mr. Foster? 

Mr. Zack. He certainly was. 

Mr. Whitley. You know, of your own knowledge, he was well 
known to them? 

Mr. Zack. He was very well known to them. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, do you know whether there was a Comintern 
representative who was sent to this country by the name of Johnson ? 

Mr. Zack. Johnson? 

Mr. Whitley. He was also known as Scott, I believe. 

Mr. Zack. Oh, yes, yes ; that was a lad, a big tall lad. He was the 
first one that came to this country with, I think, about $50,000 to 
finance trade-union activities — yes. 

The Chairman. Mr. Zack, may I interject right there? I want 
to get one thing cleared up. Did not you state awhile ago, definitely, 
that, in your judgment, based upon your experience in this move- 
ment, the Communists control the policies of the C. I. O. 

Mr. Zack. No; I did not say that. 

The Chairman. What did you say, exactly? 

Mr. Zack. I said that the Communists control the policies of the 
C. I. O. in those industries where they are in control of the C. I. O. 
unions. They do not control the policy of the C. I. O. in general, you 
see. 

The Chairman. Just in those industries in which they control, that 
you named? 

Mr. Zack. That is right. 

Mr. Mason. And those are some of the leading industries in the 
CI. O.? 

Mr. Zack. Yes — well, they are some of the most important indus- 
tries in the country. 

Mr. Mason. Yes. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, this party Johnson, or Scott, you say brought 
$50,000 over here as Comintern representative to finance trade-union 
work ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And do you know whether he was known to Browder 
and Foster? 

Mr. Zack. And how ! [Laughter.] 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5481 

Mr. Whitley. Was he known to them in this country; did they 
know him over here? 

Mr. Z\ck. They knew him over here and over there. 

Mr. Whitley. They knew him in both places? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And you are sure of that, even though they might 
have previously testified they did not know him, or could not identify 
him? 

Mr. Zack. Like if I sleep with you in the same bed for 6 months, 
would I know you? Well, that is how they know these fellows. 
[Laughter.] 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether an individual known as 
Valitzsky was Comintern representative to the Communist Party in 
this country? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, he was; he was a representative present at the 
secret Michigan convention, a very clever boy — too clever for Stalin; 
so he is now 6 feet below. 

Mr. Whitley. That was about what year he was over here, Mr. 
Zack? 

Mr. Z \ck. He was here in 1923 and 1924. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he was personally known to 
Browder and Foster? 

Mr. Z\ck. Well, he certainly was — and how ! 

Mr. Whitley. There is no doubt about that? 

Mr. Z\ck. No doubt whatsoever. 

The Chairman. And both Foster and Browder, on their oath, 
denied knowing them? 

Mr. Whitley. Not all of these, I will say. Mr. Foster yesterday 
denied knowing Johnstone. He said he, however, met him in Mos- 
cow, but he had never seen him here. As a matter of fact, yesterday, 
as I recall, Mr. Foster's testimony, Pepper w T as the only one he 
stated he had ever known in this country as a Comintern represen- 
tative. 

The Chairman. No, Pollitt. 

Mr. Whitley. That is right. 

The Chairman. He said Pepper was not ; that Pollitt was the only 
one he could identify as a Comintern representative, and that Pepper 
was mixed up in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. That is right. Did you know a Comintern repre- 
sentative in this country bv the name of Sirola, who was also known 
as "Miller"? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You knew him? 

Mr. Zack. He was a nice old gentleman who tried to bless us. He 
stayed around about a year. 

Sir. Whitley. Mr. Zack, as a matter of fact, from your experience. 
is it true that the Comintern always has at least one representative in 
this country? 

Mr. Zack. Yes. 

Mr. Whttley. And just what influence does he have on the party in 
the United States? 

Mr. Zack. It was originally the Comintern's work to send delegates 
over periodically when there was a dispute. Later on they established 
the idea of permanent delegates, and still later on — now I am speaking 



5482 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

since about 10 or 11 years ago — they have permanently stationed in all 
the most important parties, including the American Party, not only a 
Comintern delegate but the staff which works with him. In that staff 
they usually have a man who knows propaganda methods, another one 
who is an expert in organization matters, and, of course, there is the 
G. P. U., which he makes use of. 

Mr. Whitley. This Comintern representative that you say was in 
the United States is the one who actually makes the decisions on 
important matters? 

Mr. Zack. No one else does. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, the membership of the party in this 
country, or in any other country, are just figureheads, and the man 
sent here by the Comintern is the one who decides important matters 
of policy, and they carry them out. Is that correct ? 

Mr. Zack. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. And that is the way in which the Comintern is exer- 
cising such a degree of control over the allied groups in other coun- 
tries? 

Mr. Zach. Yes, sir. Neither Browder nor Foster nor anyone else 
decides the policies of the American Communist Party. They are 
decided from Moscow through the delegate who is stationed here. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever know of the Comintern representative 
being a member of the central or national committee? 

Mr. Zack. No, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. He is on the outside? 

Mr. Zach. He is just a delegate, just as I was. When I was a dele- 
gate I was not a member of any of those parties. I was a delegate, 
but yet I had authority to decide over all their business. 

Mr. Whitley. That was in South America ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Does the American Party or the United States Party 
also keep a representative at the Comintern in Moscow ? 

Mr. Zack. They send a delegate to Moscow, who has about as much 
to say about the^policies of the Comintern as the man that sweeps 
the shop in which I work, because he has nothing to say about it. The 
only thing that he does there is to read reports coming from the United 
States. He picks out whatever he considers matter to be submitted 
to the Comintern. 

The Chairman. Yet you say that when you were a delegate of the 
Comintern, you had absolute control. You meant of the Communist 
Party of that country ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir ; of the Communist Party. 

The Chairman. Now let us assume there is a delegate in the United 
States from the Comintern, and let us assume that we enter the war 
on the side of France and England : I do not think there is any ques- 
tion but what if we enter the war it will be on that side. It certainly 
will not be on the side of Germany and Russia. Now, if we were to 
enter the war, and there were Communist workers holding key posi- 
tions, and the international representative was here, would he be in 
a position to get almost any information that he wanted for the Comin- 
tern? Suppose he wanted military information, could he not get it 
from Communists working in the munition factories in this country? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; he could get it. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5483 

The Chairman. That would apply to espionage the same as to any- 
thing else \ 

Mr. Zack. Yes. sir: certainly he could get the information. Of 
course, any member of the Communist Party that would refuse to 
give the information to such a high functionary as that would be 
immediately disposed of. 

The Chairman. Then what you would really have would be a 
very elaborate and effective spy system maintained by Russia in the 
United States? 

Mr. Zack. You would have a system to be used by Russia for 
whatever purpose they saw lit : yes, sir. 

The Chairman. The same thing would be true with reference to 
the bund, with its 100 posts scattered throughout the country under 
the control of Hitler. They would be just as effective as the Com- 
munist Party under the control of the Russian Government. 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. So vou will have information coming; from all 
those 100 posts of the bund, from people working in aircraft fac- 
tories, and so forth. "We have some evidence, and very definite evi- 
dence, that there are bund members working in our munition fac- 
tories. Therefore, in effect, from those sources, from the Communist 
Party and from the influence of its front organizations, fellow travel- 
ers, and so forth, and from the bunds with their influence with allied 
groups affiliated with the bund, like the Silver Shirts, and so forth, 
and from the Ukrainian Fascist groups, there would be a wealth of 
information, from an almost inexhaustible source of information, 
constantly going to Hitler and Stalin. 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. You would have a situation that I do not think 
ever existed in the history of any country. These alleged political 
parties, which are nothing but branch agencies of foreign govern- 
ments, are used for their own imperialistic convenience. 

The Chairman. In other words, if we were to maintain an espion- 
age system in Germany, it would be just a handful of people that we 
could pay to do it. 

Mr. Z\ck. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And, at most, it would be a very doubtful method 
of finding out what the Germans were doing. 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. The same thing would be true if we tried to main- 
tain an espionage system in Russia. It would mean that we would 
have to have a few individuals in the pay of the government to get 
the information. 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; and they will sell a lot of ideology to them 
for nothing. 

The Chairman. Yet, Germany and Russia have in the United 
States thousands of people to wdiom they do not have to pay 
anything? 

Mr. Z vck. That is right. 

The Chairman. And those people serve not only in an espionage 
system in time of war, and for sabotage, but in time of peace they 
serve to influence our country in behalf of whatever foreign policies 
they want to promote. Is that true? 



5484 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. Of course, they cannot ask those individuals 
to do all of those things in such a frank fashion. 

The Chairman. But the fact is that they get results. It does 
not make any difference how they camouflage the thing, they get the 
results. Where you have in operation a Communist Party you 
have thousands of people working in the munitions factories in 
the United States, and there you have a sabotage and espionage 
problem. 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. There is no use in going out and looking for the 
few known agents, if you let all these groups get by with it. 

Mr. Zack. You are right. 

Mr. Voorhis. As a matter of actual fact, as I understand it, your 
realization of this situation was one of the main reasons why you 
got out of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Zack. That is correct. I also thought originally this way: 
Well, I am serving the interests of the working class by supporting 
the Communist Party, and if I had not gotten to see the close inside, 
or the center of it, I might have kept my illusion much longer. 

Mr. Voorhis. When a person first joins the Communist Party, how 
do they manage a person like that? Do they tell them anywhere 
near all of the things that are really the truth about it at first, or do 
they wait awhile? 

Mr. Zack. No, sir; they do not tell them that. That is a very 
interesting question. They just sell them the thing as a desirable 
and lofty ideal which is worth while making sacrifices for, work- 
ing for, and so forth. Well, the individual really gets busy, thinking 
he is pursuing a worth-while aim. Later, as he gets more and more 
interested, he realizes or thinks that it is worth spending one's life 
for, and he becomes in a condition to do everything. 

For instance, if I was a skilled workman in a machine plant which 
produced, let us say, some worth-while equipment, either for war pur- 
poses or otherwise, and should be affiliated with the Communist Party, 
if somebody asked me, "Why not let Russia have this?" I would say, 
"Of course." After all, if you believe in it, you want to serve the thing 
you believe in. It makes no difference what others might think about 
the matter, you would give it to them. That individual would not 
consider that unusual or strange at all. Then, for instance, there are 
always plenty of grievances. Every workman has them. You tell 
them, "Listen, by organizing yourselves and putting up a fight you can 
remedy those things." You can say that to almost any workman at 
any time of the year, because the conditions are such that you can 
always make that appeal. You can say to them, "If you will come 
into the Communist Party, we will work for that." The workingman 
will listen to that, because he has a grievance, whereas the ones behind 
the scenes may be fostering a proposition for political purposes 
altogether. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know a Comintern representative by the 
name of Gussev ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; he was the Comintern representative here for 
about 2 years. He died about 3 years ago. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he personally known to Foster and Browder in 
this country? 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5485 

Mr. Z \ck. He certainly was. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know a Comintern representative by the 
name of Marcus and also known by the name of Jenks? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; I knew him. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he was known to Browder and 
Foster? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir ; of course he was. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know a Comintern representative who was 
known as Ewarts? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Also known as Brom? 

Mr. Z \ck. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he known to Browder and Foster ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they know he was here in that capacity? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know a representative of the Comintern by 
the name of F. Brown? 

Mr. Z \ck. I think his name is Alpi. 

Mr. Whitley. You did know him? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he is here at the present 
time? 

Mr. Zack. I think he probably is. I am not sure. 

Mr. Whitley. He has been here for a number of years? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; he was here for about 7 or 8 years that I 
remember. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he was known personally to 
Browder and Foster? 

Mr. Zack. He certainly was. 

Mr. Whitley. They knew in what capacity he was here ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know a Comintern representative by the 
name of Pollit? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir ; he came here about 3 or 4 years ago. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he was known to Browder 
and Foster? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. As a matter of fact, these Comintern representatives 
would immediately get in touch with the party leaders in this 
country ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know a man by the name of Dengel ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; Dengel was a German who was sent here 
together with Pollit. Both were stationed here, one for about 4 years 
and the other for 6 or 7 years. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Dengel was known to Foster 
and Browder? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know a Comintern representative by the 
name of Rust? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; I think he was a representative from the 
Young Communist League. 



5486 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he was known to Browder 
and Foster? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir ; he was. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know a Comintern representative who was 
known by the name of Bob ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; he was a little fellow stationed here about a 
year. He was one of Stalin's lieutenants in the Young Communist 
International, a commissar of a youth organization. 

Mr. Whitley. If they came here on regular passports, how did 
they manage to stay here for 7 or 8 years ? 

Mr. Zack. Now you ask a good one. They did not come here 
on Russian passports. 

Mr. Whitley. What passports did they have? 

Mr. Zack. They obtained passports that were made for them. 
When you go to Russia, they ask you to file your passport, which 
you do not get back until you go out. If they happen to use that 
passport, you are told that it was lost. Other people travel on 
them. That is how people like Bob and others get out of Russia 
and travel in other countries. 

The Chairman. We had some testimony from Mr. Gitlow on that. 
He went into considerable detail on that. The G. P. U. have offices 
where you surrender passports in Russia. They forge passports in 
many instances. 

Mr. Whitley. They reproduce them. When they get hold of one, 
they hold on to it. 

Mr. Zack. Either that, or they come on British passports or French 
passports. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you know a Comintern representative by the 
name of Kuuinen? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; I knew him. It was his wife who was here 
to control the Finnish organization in this country. 

Mr. Whitley. Her husband occupied a prominent position in the 
Comintern ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; her husband was secretary of the Comintern 
at the time. 

Mr. Whitley. Was she known to Browder and Foster ? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That is what I wanted to have identified for the 
record. 

Mr. Mason. I have one or two questions : When these great labor 
organizations wanted to organize along industrial lines, under leaders 
like John L. Lewis, you testified that they made use of active Com- 
munist organizers because they thought they would get a more 
rapid growth. Is that one reason why the Communist Party during 
the last 5 or 6 years has made such a rapid growth in the United 
States? Did they become influential in securing themselves, you 
might say, because of their organization work in the ranks of labor ? 
Is that right? 

Mr. Zack. The situation at that time was for the organization of 
industrial unions in the big mass-production industries, and the 
Communists, through John L. Lewis, took advantage of it. 

Mr. Mason. Is not the same thing true in the case of those who 
were interested in rebuilding the social and economic structure of 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5487 

the country? Did they not also utilize the driving force of the Com- 
munists in helping them to accomplish that work, and, as a result, 
ljave not the Communists established themselves among those people, 
who are not sympathetic toward communism, but who made use of 
them in furthering their own ends? 

Mr. Zack. Yes, sir; they do that wherever they have social dis- 
content in any class or group of people. 

The Chairman. There is one other question that we always ask 
for the record : Are you a Jew ? 

Mr. Zack. No, sir ; I am by breeding a Catholic. 

The Chairman. The reason I ask that is to have it for the record. 

(Thereupon, the committee adjourned subject to the call of the 
Chair.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PKOPAGANDA ACTIVI- 
TIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



THURSDAY, OCTOBER 5, 1939 

House of Representatives, 
Special. Committee to Investigate 

Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. O. 
The committee met at 1 p. m., Hon. Martin Dies (chairman), 
presiding. 

Present : Messrs. Dies, Mason, and Thomas. 

Present also : Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee, and J. B. 
Matthews, director of research for the committee. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 
Mr. Whitley. I will call Mr. Ness. 

The Chairman. You solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole 
truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 
Mr. Ness. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF NEIL HOWARD NESS, MECHANICAL ENGINEER 

(The witness was sworn by the chairman.) 

Mr. Whitley. What is your full name, Mr. Ness? 

Mr. Ness. Neil Howard Ness. 

The Chairman. And what is your present address? 

Mr. Ness. It is 37 Beacon Street, Oakland, Calif. 

Mr. Whitley. Where were you born, Mr. Ness? 

Mr. Ness. San Francisco, Calif. 

Mr. Whitley. What date? 

Mr. Ness. September 9, 1897. 

Mr. Whitley. You will outline for the committee your education, 
experience, and training. 

Mr. Ness. Well, I am an engineer, a mechanical engineer, a gradu- 
ate of the Harrison Technical High School in Chicago, and from 
that 

The Chairman. Speak a little more distinctly, please, and louder. 

Mr. Ness. Yes — and I just went in corresponding school work in 
engineering and developed into a mechanical engineer's position from 
that. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you in the last war, Mr. Ness? 

Mr. Ness. Yes ; I served in the World War. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have overseas duty? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Whitley. And at the present time what occupation are you 
engaged in? 

Mr. Ness. Mechanical engineer. 

5489 



5490 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Mechanical engineer? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Ness, did you ever have occasion to come in con- 
tact with an organization which was formerly known as Friends of 
New Germany and later the name was changed to the "German- Ameri- 
can Bund"? 

Mr. Ness. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you describe to the committee how you first 
came in contact with that organization and approximately when? 

Mr. Ness. Well, the latter part — during the latter part of 1935 I 
visited a restaurant in Los Angeles which was owned and operated by 
some German people. I met quite a number of Germans there and 
became friendly with them and after a brief period of time they 
invited me to the German House in Los Angeles. I visited the German 
House, which was the headquarters for the Friends of New Germany 
at that time and later changed to the German -American Bund. I 
became acquainted with officials then and continued with them. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were some of the officials that you met at that 
time and became acquainted with? 

Mr. Ness. At that time I met Mr. Paehlor — I think you spell his 
name P-a-e-h-1-o-r; that is purely a guess on my part, but I think that 
is the way you spell it ; I am not sure. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that "T" or "P"? 

Mr. Ness. "P." 

Mr. Whitley. P-a-e-h-1-o-r? 

Mr. Ness. I think that is the way you spell it; I am not sure about 
that. 

Mr. Whitley. Who were some of the others ? 

Mr. Ness. Mr. Schwinn. 

Mr. Whitley. That is Herman Schwinn ? 

Mr. Ness. Herman Schwinn ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What position did he occupy in the Friends of New 
Germany at that time ? 

Mr. Ness. Well, he was known officially as the fuehrer of the West; 
he was the head of the Friends of New Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. For the western division? 

Mr. Ness. For the western division; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And, as I understand it, your first meeting with 
the individuals you have named, and others, members of the Friends 
of New Germany, in the latter part of 1935, was rather incidental 
and just social? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; quite casual. 

Mr. Whitley. And social? 

Mr. Ness. And social; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you continue your association with those in- 
dividuals ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Whitley. And did you gain their confidence? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they become confident you were sympathetic 
to their organization? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; they did. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5401 

Mr. Whitley. How did you manage that? How did you work 
yourself into their confidence, and over what period of time, Mr. 

Ness? 

Mr. Ness. Well, I might besl explain thai in this manner 

Mr. Thomas. Talk a little louder, please; I cannot hear you. 

Mr. Ness. Yes; I am sorry. 

The Chairman. Talk over this way. 

Mr. Ness. When I first visited the German-American House in 
Los Angeles, I was rather surprised at the extent of the Nazi dis- 
play of swastikas and literature that was available, and I thought — 
well, 1 would just find out what this was all about. And, in order 
to do that, I just mentioned the fact I was sympathetic to their 
activities and listened to what they had to say. Later on, I decided 
I would like to gather enough material about this activity to write 
either some articles or perhaps a book on the subject. 

Mr. Thomas. Were you employed by anybody at that time? 

Mr. Ness. Pardon? 

Mr. Thomas. Were you employed by anybody at that time ? 

Mr. Ness. No; I was not employed. And I used my leisure time; 
as a matter of fact, I visited there very frequently to observe what was 
going on, for the purpose of gathering this information. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. And did you, Mr. Ness, after building up — 
after continuing those associations and purposely building up confi- 
dence in the members of the organization, were you later initiated 
into the German-American Bund or the Friends of New Germany? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; I became a member fully initiated. 

Mr. Whitley. Approximately what date was that, to the best of 
your recollection? 

Mr. Xess. It was about the middle of 1936. 

Mr. Whitley. About July? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; about July of 1936. 

Mr. Whitley. And describe the process by which you became a 
member. Did you have to make application or to go through any 
ceremony ? 

Mr. Xess. Yes. I had been quite active in the bund activities previ- 
ous to the time when they thought I should show my wholehearted 
support by joining the organization; so when they pressed me to be- 
come a member, I tendered a formal application and was notified I 
would be initiated on a certain date. The date I do not recall now. 

Mr. Whitley. The date of your initiation? 

Mr. Ness. The date of mv initiation, but it was sometime in July. 

Mr. Whitley. July 1936? 

Mr. Ness. 1936 ; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. And this actual, formal affiliation was after you had 
been closely associated for a number of months ? 

Mr. Ness. Oh, yes; I had been closely associated with them for 
perhaps 7 or 8 months previous to this. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, what ceremony did you go through? Did you 
take an oath of allegiance to the organization or to any individuals? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. There were several that were initiated on the same 
evening I was initiated, and when our names were called, the speaker 
or the leader, who was Herman Schwinn, called us to the front, and 



5492 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

we lined up in front of Herman Schwinn. He delivered a lecture in 
German that lasted for about 5 minutes, and tlien he switched to 
English and told us we were there for a purpose that was far more 
reaching than we might feel at that particular time; that we may 
have occasion to defend the fatherland. He spoke, of course — I mean 
this : He spoke, of course, of our adopted country, the United States, 
because there were several that were Germans that were being initi- 
ated, and he spoke of our building up a closer bond between the United 
States and Germany ; of establishing a German culture in this country 
that would bring us very, very close to Germany ; and said that, while 
at the time — this impressed me very forcibly — that while at the time 
we were required only to supply our financial and moral support, 
there might be a time come when we also would have to be called upon 
to give even our lifeblood in defense of the fatherland. 

Mr. Whitley. And by the fatherland 

Mr. Ness. He meant Germany. And in the final analysis, we 
swore allegiance to National Socialism and to Adolf Hitler. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that a part of the oath that you took? 

Mr. Ness. That was a part of the oath that I took. As a matter 
of fact, I had someone in the audience that night making notes on 
the oath. I have the oath written out, but I have not it here, and 
I am just giving the gist of it. 

Mr. Whitley. The gist of it was, in taking that oath to become a 
member of the Friends of the New Germany, you had to take an 
oath of allegiance to the Nazi Government? 

Mr. Ness. That is right — to Adolf Hitler. 

Mr. Whitley. There is no question about that? 

Mr. Ness. That is true. 

Mr. Whitley. Thai was an oath of allegiance to him? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And to his Government? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. As I understand it, Mr. Attorney, that was the 
Friends of the New Germany oath, not the bund oath ? 

Mr. Whitley. That is right. The name had not been changed at 
that time, Mr. Thomas. 

Now, how did you, Mr. Ness, appeal to Mr. Schwinn and the 
other members and leaders of the bund, when you first met them and 
became associated with them, to get them particularly interested in 
you and what you could do for them? Did you suggest any ideas 
you might have in mind that appealed to them? 

Mr. Ness. Well, at first I mentioned I was interested in a series 
of articles, meaning the articles I had referred to before, which 
perhaps was not the brightest thing for me to do, but I mentioned 
it that way and Inter I saw they thought I meant I would write 
articles for them. 

Mr. Thomas. I do not like to interrupt, but there is one thing 
I think you ought to get straight for the record. This oath that was 
taken was in 1936, was it not? 

Mr. Whitley. July 1936. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, the bund was formed before that time, was 
it not? 

Mr. Whitley. No; my recollection, Mr. Thomas, is that the bund 
came into existence in 1937. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5493 

Mr. Thomas. I think it came into existence in 1935. 

Mr. Ness. I believe Mr. Thomas is correct. I think it had already 
eome into effect in 1936, and that this was the German-American 
Bund oath of allegiance that I took. 

Mr. Thomas. That is what I wanted to get straight. 

Mr. Ness. I am not definitely sure about that; I would have to 
refer to my notes to be absolutely sure. 

Mr. Whitley. The thing I am not sure of, Mr. Thomas, is whether 
when the bund was formed all of the previous organizations of 
Friends of New Germany immediately affiliated with and changed 
their name. 

Mr. Thomas. No ; the}' did not. 

The Chaesman. No ; they did not. 

Mr. Ness. It was a gradual process. 

The Chairman. The testimony heretofore, as I recall it, is that when 
the bund was formed the Friends of New Germany in various sec- 
tions continued to function for some time after that. In other words, 
it was not just a sudden discontinuance of one and beginning of the 
other, but in certain sections the Friends of New Germany continued 
on for some time afterward. 

Mr. Ness. That is right. 

Mr. Thomas. I just bring it up to get it straight in the record. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes; I am glad you did. 

The Chairman. But you do not recall, from memory, whether it 
was the bund or Friends of New Germany? 

Mr. Ness. I am quite definitely sure it was the bund. 

The Chairman. The German-American Bund? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, the name had been changed at that 
time? 

Mr. Ness. I feel that it had. As this gentleman — Mr. Dies — men- 
tioned, the change-over was made gradually; throughout various parts 
of the country they changed from Friends of New Germany to the 
German- American Bund in order to facilitate their own organiza- 
tion conditions. The Germany- American Bund, as I recall, was not 
supposed to have any citizens of the Reich in it, and Los Angeles had 
quite a number of citizens of the Reich. 

Mr. Whitley. You meat! a number of the members of the Friends 
of New Germany were German citizens? 

Mr. Ness. That is rial it. and the bund was supposed to be entirely 
American citizens, and maneuvers that were gone through at the time 
to camouflage the change-over from Friends of New Germany to the 
German-America 1 1 Bund atxl to pick up at the same time these German 
citizens in the German-American Bund was what caused delays in 
various sections of the country. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, they had to go through a kind of 
weeding out of German citizens before they could operate openly 
with the bund? 

Mr. Ness. That is the idea. At the same time, they had an absurd 
situation, a camouflaged one. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Ness, was it your observation that the change 
from Friends of New Germany to the German-American Bund was 
primarily a change of name and the organization substantially con- 
tinued to operate as it had? 



5494 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Ness. Well, if there had been any degree of change in the 
policy or activity, I would certainly be more clear insofar as my 
memory of the change-over was concerned; but there was no differ- 
ence; after the Friends of New Germany changed to German-Amer- 
ican Bund, there was no difference. 

Mr. Whitley. Which makes it hard for you to recall just when 
the change took place? 

Mr. Ness. That is it. I could not determine any difference in 
policy or operation. 

Mr. Whitley. The same policies 

Mr. Ness. The same people were present, and the same operation 
going on. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, getting back to the manner in which you first 
interested them, this series of articles you mentioned, will you follow 
that up, Mr. Ness, and tell us what their reaction was to this sug- 
gested series of articles which I believe you said you had in mind 
writing about the bund, and they thought, when you mentioned it r 
you wanted to write to help them carry on their propaganda? 

Mr. Ness. That is right. And when I recognized that condition 
existed, I did not do anything to change their thoughts, and they 
became very friendly, and Schwinn assigned one of the storm troop- 
ers to work with me in that regard. This storm trooper was a man 
by the name of Rheinhold Kusche and Kusche was supposed to help 
me bring out these articles as propaganda material. Kusche visited 
my home and we discussed things in general, then later became more 
definite as to what policies we would pursue in connection with put- 
ting out this propaganda. 

Mr. Whitley. Where was that to be published? 

Mr. Ness. Well, it was to be national in its scope, as far as they 
were concerned, but it was going to be published in Los Angeles. 

Mr. Whitley. Was it going to be in pamphlet form, of a series 
of articles? 

Mr. Ness. No ; they were going to bring out a youth magazine that 
would attract the youth of America. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, the propaganda was to appeal to 
the youth of the country? 

Mr. Ness. That is right; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, in your talking over of plans for that maga- 
zine, or for these articles, did they suggest certain material for 
you to read or for you to follow in preparing your articles? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. There was quite a bit of material that had come 
from Germany ; some of it had come to various of these bund mem- 
bers direct; and this material was given me to incorporate in these 
articles. 

Mr. Thomas. That material had to do with what kind of subjects? 

Mr. Ness. National socialism; the development of national social- 
ism in Germany and what it had done for Germany and what it 
could do for others, and how the youth had been benefited by it. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you actually do any writing for any of their 
publications or by way of articles, Mr. Ness? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. I was on the California Weckruf, which is the 
official organ of the bund — a weekly newspaper. I was on the edi- 
torial staff and I also conducted a column ; wrote articles. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5495 

Mr. Whitley. That is, you were a regular writer for the official 
organ ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The California Weckruf? 

Mr. Ness. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. What type of material did the)' suggest for you to 
follow, or did they give you material or Literature that had been pre- 
pared there, or sent in? 

Mr. Ness. Well, the biggest part of the material was propaganda in 
favor of Germany and material that would attack the Jewish people 
of America, and also attack the administration. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they indicate the source from which they had re- 
ceived that material? In other words, did it come in from Germany, 
or was it of domestic origin ? 

Mr. Ness. It came from Germany ; most of it came from Germany, 
but some of it was domestic. The biggest part of it had the stamp of 
the German National Socialist Party in Germany on it. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. And that is what they followed in preparing 
their own propaganda material for their paper and for other activi- 
ties in this country I 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have regular office space assigned to you at 
the Deutscheshaus ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes ; I had a desk there. 

Mr. Whitley. That is where you did your work? 

Mr. Ness. In Schwinn's private office. 

Mr. Whitley. Now what groups, Mr. Ness, did the Friends of Neve 
Germany or the German-American Bund — and, according to your tes- 
timony they are synonymous; it is just a change of name? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What groups did they cooperate with or work with 
on the coast while you were active in the organization? 

Mr. Ness. Well, there were quite a number of groups that they were 
affiliated with either directly or indirectly. One was the Russian 
Revolutionary Party; another one was the American Nationalist 
Party. 

Mr. Thomas. You are speaking of what year, now ? 

Mr. Ness. 1936. And another one was the Silver Legion, or Silver 
Shirts. 

Mr. Whitley. That is William Dudley Pelley's organization? 

Mr. Ness. Pelley's organization; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they cooperate with those groups you have 
named, closely? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; we did. 

Mr. AVhitley. In writing literature and exchanging visits? 

Mr. Ness. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Did the representatives of those groups attend meet- 
ings at the Deutscheshaus and participate in them as speakers? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall any particular instance when repre- 
sentatives of those organizations w r ere present? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. On one occasion Pelley himself spoke at the German 
House. 

94031— 39— vol. 9 16 



5496 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Now, on that occasion do you recall whether or not, 
when Mr. Pelley made his speech at the German House, he made any 
allusion — or do you want to bring that out ? Are you coming to that ? 

Mr. Whitley. I do not know what you have in mind. 

The Chairman. Did he make any statement about Adolf Hitler 
and about his own position? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, he did; I have complete notes on his speech. And 
also Kemp, who was considered his right -hand man, spoke that evening 
as well. In his speech, I remember very vividly that, Pelley mentioned 
that he had been called by his enemies as a pro-German. He said he 
was proud of being pro-German ; he was proud of the fact that he had 
been called the Adolf Hitler of America, because that is what he 
considered himself. 

The Chairman. He was proud of being called the Adolf Hitler 
of America, because that is what he considered himself? 

Mr. Ness. That is right ; yes. 

The Chairman. Was he applauded vigorously there? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; they stamped the floor and just about took the roof 
down. 

The Chairman. Did he say how many followers he had; did he 
make an estimate to the crowd ? 

Mr. Ness. Well, the inference he gave would lead one to assume that 
he had everyone in the United States behind him except the present 
administration. 

The Chairman. I see. All right; proceed. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Ness, this material that you were given as a 
guide in preparing those articles and propaganda for consumption 
of American j^outh was written in German or English? 

Mr. Ness. Some was in German, some in English. 

Mr. Whitley. Was the English translated here, or was it sent to 
this country in translated form? 

Mr. Ness. No; it had been translated in Germany at party head- 
quarters for propaganda and then shipped here. 

Mr. Whitley. And was it your observation there was a regular 
supply of this propaganda material coming over here constantly ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes ; there was. 

Mr. Whitley. Through what channels did that come, Mr. Ness? 

Mr. Ness. In Los Angeles, the biggest part of it I observed came 
through German ships that called at the port of Los Angeles. There 
were several German vessels that came in there — the Vesser, the 
Portland, the Oakland, the Elbe. 

Mr. Whitley. What were the relations between the bund leaders 
in Los Angeles and the officials on these boats that came into the 
harbor? 

The Chairman. You mean German boats? 

Mr. Whitley. German boats ; yes. 

The Chairman. Before he gets to the relationship, may I ask him, 
if you do not mind, how many members were there of the Friends of 
New Germany, or the bund— how many members that attended the 
meetings, would you say ? 

Mr. Ness. I would say that our average attendance amounted to 
about 100 persons. 

The Chairman. That was bund members? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5497 

The Chairman. WIumi they had an open meeting and the sympa- 
thizers were there, the Silver Shirts and all of this other crowd, what 
would be the number present? 

Mr. Ness. I think the largest attendance we had was about 700 
persons. 

The Chairman. About Too persons? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

The Chairman. .VII right ; go ahead. 

Mr. Whitley. Will you describe the relations between the officials 
of the bund, or Friends of Germany — whichever it was at the mo- 
ment — and the captains and officers of these German boats that came 
into the harbor '. 

Mr. Ness. Well, the relationship was a very cordial one. It seemed 
that the members of the crew on these German vessels, from the 
captain on down, had a great deal of respect for the bund officials 
and in some cases it looked as though they even had a bit of fear of 
them. I recall on several instances when we visited various of the 
ships that we had the free run of the boat from the captain's quarters 
to any point that we wanted to go, and, of course, the captain would 
do anything that he was asked to do. 

Mr. Thomas. Right along those lines, if you do not mind: Did 
the German consul or any of the employees of the consulate out there 
attend any of these meetings? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. Mr. Grab was the chancellor of the consulate and 
when Dr. Gysling was not able to visit the bund meetings, when 
some important functions were going on, Grah would be there as 
the official representative of the consulate office. Gysling was there, 
himself, on several occasions. 

Mr. Thomas. Did they take any active part in the inner workings 
of the bund out there? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; it appears that they did. I cannot say definitely 
they did. I know there was an exchange of finances, and things of 
that nature. 

Mr. Thomas. But you believe they did? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

The Chairman. You know there was an exchange of what? 

Mr. Ness. An exchange of finances; that is, the consulate at one 
time helped the German bund with some money during one of their 
difficult period.-. 

The Chairman. Do you know that to be a fact? 

Mr. Ness. I am quite sure. I was told by Schwinn. If his word 
is good, that is true. 

The Chairman. Why would Schwinn tell you that? 

Mr. Ness. Because I was so closely associated with Schwann. I 
might mention this, that I spent practically every day with Schwinn. 
Schwinn had a car that !>0 percent of the time would not run, and I 
had a new car, and I would drive him about, and he would use my 
car whenever he wanted to go places. 

Mr. Thomas. You also recall that these officials of the German 
consulate attended these secret meetings of the bund; that is, closed 
meetings ? 

Mr. Ness. Well, I would see them going and coming during the 
-(•cret sessions in Schwinn's office. 



5498 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. You would see them going and coming? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. Just what transpired in his office, I don't know. 
I do know at one time that the German House was in a very pre- 
carious situation so far as finances were concerned and they weath- 
ered the storm quite nicely right after the consulate had been very 
active at the house. 

Mr. Whitley. As I understand it, Mr. Ness, after you made your 
first contact there casually, then you conceived the idea of following 
this thing up for the purpose of getting all the information you 
could, so you went out of your way to observe what was going on 
and also to build up their confidence so that you could be in a posi- 
tion to get more information? 

Mr. Ness. That is true. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall an incident in the early part of 1936 
when a German boat called the Elbe was in the harbor there ? 

Mr. Ness. That was in the early part of 1936, you say? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. I visited so many German vessels when they 
came in that it is rather difficult to recall all of them now. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Schwinn and others go down and go on the 
boat when it came into the harbor? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir ; whenever a German ship came in. 

Mr. Whitley. And you on many occasions went with them ? 

Mr. Ness. On practically every occasion. 

Mr. Whitley. Was the procedure there much the same in each 
instance so far as going on board and talking with the captain was 
concerned ? 

Mr. Ness. Very much the same during the early part of 1936. In 
the latter part of 1936 or the middle part of 1936 there was a change 
that took place. When we first visited German ships the captains used 
to turn over to Schwinn whatever material he had to turn over to 
Schwinn that came from Germany, and Schwinn would turn over to 
the captain any material he wanted to send back to Germany. 

The Chairman. What was the material he was sending back to 
Germany? 

Mr. Ness. Official reports on the status and development of bund 
activities in America. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether he sent any photographs, or 
anything of that kind to Germany? 

Mr. Ness. That I do not know. 

The Chairman. Do you know of any other information, besides 
reports on the bund, that he was sending back to Germany? 

Mr. Ness. No, sir; I do not. As nearly as I recall, it was material 
on the activities and development of the German-American Bund, 
material on its progress and propaganda work in this country. 

The Chairman. Would he deliver sealed envelopes to the German 
officer or captain on the boat? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Was that done many times? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. On practically every occasion when a German boat 
came in here ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir ; on practically every occasion when a boat came. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5499 

The Chairman. Whenever a German boal came into the harbor at 
Los Angeles, Schwinn would meet the boat, and you were present most 
of the time? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman, lie would go on board the German boat and contact 
the German officer on the boat? 

Mr. Ness. That is right. 

The Chairman. And he would receive from him material, or pack- 
ages of material, and they would deliver to him packages of material? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. There would be an exchange of sealed packages 
or envelopes. 

The Chairman. You did not know what was contained in the pack- 
ages or envelopes? 

Mr. Ness. Sometimes I did. I always had the packages in my 
car. Schwinn used my car, and I would go back to the German 
House and open the packages. It would be in some cases material 
from the propaganda headquarters in Germany. In some cases there 
would be a flat envelope, and I would not learn what was inside of it. 

The Chairman. He would not let you see what was inside those 
flat envelopes? 

Mr. Ness. That is right. 

The Chairman. That is when you were in the bund, or associated 
with the bund? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Schwinn get material or packages from other 
parts of the country ? 

Mr. Ness. I recall on one occasion there was a meeting at the 
German House when some material was received. It was about 
2 o'clock in the afternoon. Although Schwinn was quite congenial, 
he was a bit upset because I was late. He mentioned that he had 
to go down to the main post office at once and send some material 
to Fritz Kuhn, the national leader, because Fritz Kuhn was going 
to Germany, and this material Fritz Kuhn was to take to the head- 
quarters in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. Can you tell us approximately what date that was? 

Mr. Ness. I do not recall. It has been some time. 

Mr. Whitley. That was sometime during 1936? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. Of course, outside of that, that had been the 
policy in the exchange between officers or officials on the ship of 
material between them and Schwinn, with their contacts, during the 
early part of 1936. 

Mr. Whitley. It was always sealed material. It always came in 
sealed envelopes? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. During the middle of 1936 I went down to a 
German ship with Schwinn, with several other members of the bund. 
We always traveled around with storm troopers. We met on that 
ship a man who was a member of the National Socialist Party and 
leader of the party on that boat, and it was then they made a change 
in the policy. On every ship that sailed then they had placed on 
board the ship a man whose official duty it was to concern himself a 
great deal with the activities of the crews of the ships, as to their 
loyalty to national socialism. From that time on Schwinn w T ould 
always report himself to the party leader. 



5500 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. He was a political leader? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir; he was a political leader or party leader. 

Mr. Whitley. From the time that policy was instituted, instead 
of reporting to the captain in the exchange of sealed envelopes with 
him. he would report to the political leader or party leader? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir; at first 

Mr. Whitley, (interposing). Were those conferences more pri- 
vate than those with the captain? 

Mr. Ness. They were all private. 

Mr. Whitley. He would go aboard, and they would go into a pri- 
vate cabin with the political leader ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir; and they would go into the captain's quarters, 
where the captain would entertain us, while Schwinn was discussing 
their problems with the party leader. 

Mr. Whitley. Was it your understanding from Schwinn and other 
officials of the bund that those were the duties of this political leader 
on the boats, with one on each boat — that is, from then on, once the 
policy was inaugurated, there would be a political leader on each 
boat? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they explain to you in conversations what were 
the duties or what were the functions of this political leader? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. Schwinn told me just what the duties of the 
political leader were; that his duty was to keep everything in line, 
and to give definite reports to the National Socialist Party headquar- 
ters in Germany, not only as to the conduct and activities of the- men 
on the boat, but also on various organizations, like the German-Amer- 
ican Bund at Los Angeles and other ports of call. 

Mr. Whitley. Wliere would he make his report? 

Mr. Ness. Schwinn would report to him, and he would, in turn, 
report to the party headquarters in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. He was the one who got the reports, and there was 
one on each boat? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. Schwinn once told me that when this man 
came here on the boat, that he was the right hand man of Adolf 
Hitler, and that every man throughout the entire organization was 
subordinate to him. 

Mr. Whitley. They were subordinate to him because he was su- 
period to the captain or any official on the boat, and to any local 
leaders in this country? 

Mr. Ness. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall an occasion on which a German 
cruiser was in Los Angeles Harbor ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. What were the circumstances of that? 

Mr. Ness. It was not Los Angeles Harbor, but San Diego. The 
German cruiser Karlsruhe visited San Diego, and they sent a group of 
officers to the German House in Los Angeles. We had quite a num- 
ber of them at the time, and we had to provide sleeping accommoda- 
tions for them. They stayed for a week. In addition, there was quite 
a celebration in Hindenberg Park, in Los Angeles. About a week 
later we went to the cruiser Karlsruhe, at San Diego, and at that time 
Schwinn sent some Storm Troopers down there. I have an invitation 
to that meeting, but I do not have it with me. 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 55OI 

Mr. Whitley. Did any German consular official take part in that 
meeting? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir; Dr. Gysling and Mr. Grah. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was Grah? 

Mr. Ness. The chancelor of the consulate. 

Mr. Whitley. Did any other outside groups participate in the 
celebration meetings that took place on that occasion, such as the 
Silver Shirts or the Russian group? 

Mr. Ness. There were a number of groups present. 

Mr. Whitley. Was it usual that at least one official representative 
was present at all the functions of that sort, or on all such occasions? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir; on all occasions we had important officials. 

Mr. Whitley. Going back to the matter of material, do you know 
whether on the occasion of the cruiser's visit any orders were ex- 
changed, or whether Schwinn made any reports to the officers of that 
vessel ? 

Mr. Ness. Schwinn told me that all those officers had to report back 
to Germany on their observations as to the developments and feeling 
in the United States for national socialism. That is the National 
Socialist Party. He said that he had several very pleasant conver- 
sations with them in connection with the work that he had been doing 
here in Los Angeles. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, would the officers on those boats 
observe the work of the bund and of the National Socialist groups in 
this country, so as to report back to the party headquarters in 
Germany ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitney. Schwinn made that clear to you in his talks? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir; definitely. 

Mr. Whitley. Those officers or officials were coming in and con- 
stantly checking up and watching them so as to report back to the 
officials in Germany as to their progress, activities, and so forth? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall any particular instance when you 
visited a German boat, or any unusual incident that took place in 
your relations with an officer on a boat? 

Mr. Ness. In what way do you mean ? 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall an occasion where there was some 
difficulty, or when Schwinn and the captain had difficulty in exchang- 
ing envelopes because some stranger was there? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. There was one time when we went aboard, 
Schwinn and myself. We met the captain, and just as we stepped 
into the captain's quarters, some man walked up. He was behind us. 
Who he was, I do not know; but he looked around, and we came 
in out of the quarters again. When we came out, we left that deck 
and went down on one of the lower decks. This man followed us 
about. I believe that was Captain Prauerucht. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you remember what boat it was? 

Mr. Ness. I think it was the Oakland. That man kept following 
us about, and the captain seemed to be a bit nervous. He did not 
question him — whether he did it, I do not know. There was not 
much we could do about it, and we left the ship without accomplish- 
ing anything, so far as making any exchange of letters or material 
was concerned. Schwinn had a brief case, but he never opened it. 



5502 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 



Mr. Whitley. They did not do anything, or he did not deliver any 
messages ? 

Mr. Ness. No, sir. They seemed to be worried about the man's 
activities. 

Mr. Mason. Who was the strange man that had a right to be on 
the ship? 

Mr. Ness. I do not know. I do not know whether the captain 
questioned him. Personally, I do not know whether he did or not. 

The Chairman. Was it a passenger ship? 

Mr. Ness. It was a passenger and freight ship. It was a com- 
bination ship . 

Mr. Mason. You do not know whether he was a customs officer or 
a man who would have a right on the ship? 

Mr. Ness. The captain might have known who he was. He seemed 
to be quite nervous when this man was about. 

Mr. Whitley. Was it your observation that this man might have 
been there observing their activities? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir ; that is the way it impressed me at the time. I 
felt that to be the fact. I was impressed because the captain was so 
nervous about this man following him around. 

Mr. Whitley. Was it the practice of the bund or the Friends of 
New Germany to entertain officers of ships and others when they 
came in the harbor? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Were those entertainments usually held at the Ger- 
man House? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Schwinn and other leaders of the German 
group on the west coast make visits to Germany? 

Mr. Ness. I do not recall Schwinn making a visit during my time 
there, but other members of the bund, particularly members of the 
Storm Troopers, visited Germany during 1936. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what the purposes of those visits were, 
or who paid the expenses? 

Mr. Ness. We used to have a roll call at meetings that were held 
during the absence of Storm Troopers, and Schwinn would remark 
that they were absent on special duty in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever have occasion to talk with any of them 
after their return as to what their activities had been over there, 
whether it was for training, or what ? 

Mr. Ness. I talked to them, but they did not disclose entirely what 
the activities were that they had, but they gave very glowing ac- 
counts of National Socialist Party activities in Germany, and as 
to how greatly Germany had been built up since the National Social- 
ist Party came into power. The mentioned that they were extending 
their efforts to build up national socialism in the United States. 

Mr. Thomas. Did any of those people who went to Germany relate 
to you anything about the meetings they might have attended at 
the Brown House? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir; they mentioned they had been to party head- 
quarters, and met this one and that one. They did not mention all 
that transpired. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5503 

Mr. Thomas. They told you that they attended party meetings at 
the Brown House? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have any contact with the exchange stu- 
dents while engaged in activities around Los Angeles? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir; at one time there were three exchange students 
that visited the bund. They were, I believe, going to Georgia Tech. 
They were exchange students at Georgia Tech. and they were driving 
through the country in a Ford roadster. They had swastika em- 
blems painted on it. and the three-ring sign of the Olympic games 
in front. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have any discussions in bund circles as to 
what the functions of the exchange students were, or do they have 
any direct affiliation with bund groups in this country? 

Sir. Ness. Just how direct that affiliation was, I do not recall. 
They have visited German House in Los Angeles. They reported to 
Schwinn immediately upon their arrival. I learned from Schwinn 
that they were very active in putting out propaganda favorable to 
the National Socialist Party. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you learned from Schwinn, or got 
from Schwinn the definite impression that they were engaged in 
propaganda activities in behalf of the Nazi Party ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And while engaged in this activity, they maintained 
contact with the bund posts in this country? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. And the bund, I suppose, cooperated with them in 
every way possible in their activities ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. On this occasion, when those three students 
came, Schwinn gave them a letter, as they were driving through the 
country. I do not recall now whether it was to the leader of the 
bund at San Francisco, or any other coast cities, but they took that 
letter from Schwinn. 

Mr. Whitley. At any time while you were connected with the 
bund on the west coast, did any special representative of the Nazi 
Government make contact with the bund for the purpose of helping 
to reorganize its work or program? 

Mr. Ness. I recall now that Schwinn told me that Mr. Meyer- 
hoffer was coming from Germany to assist in rebuilding the bund. 
The bund seemed to be constantly in hot water so far as its financial 
condition was concerned, and this man was a special agent. 

Mr. Whitley. Of the Nazi Government? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. When this man arrived, he was accorded a 
very cordial reception, and the house was practically turned over 
to him. He was a very military-bearing man, although quite short 
in stature. In my talks with him, he constantly referred to his 
association with Rudolph Hesse, the deputy fuehrer of the National 
Socialist Party in Germany. He tried to impress me with the close 
connection that he had with Hesse. He went out of the way to ex- 
plain the association that he had with Hesse. He told me about going 
to lunch with him, working with him, going to the theater with him, 
and so forth. 



5504 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. Did he tell you that he had come directly from 
Germany, or was sent from Germany, on any official mission or 
purpose ? 

Mr. Ness. No, sir; he just mentioned that he came from Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. And he mentioned how closely he was associated 
in Germany with Rudolph Hesse? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir ; he told me that he was closely associated with 
Rudolph Hesse. Rudolph Hesse is the deputy fuehrer of the Na- 
tional Socialist Party. 

Mr. Whitley. What about Myerhoffer? What were his func- 
tions? Did he take an active part in the organization of the Los 
Angeles bund ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir; in straightening out the financial difficulties 
they were going through. 

INLr. Whitley. Did he supersede the local fuehrer, Schwinn, when 
he was there? In other words, did Schwinn look up to him and 
recognize him as a superior while he was there? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir; Schwinn took the attitude that whatever 
Myerhoffer suggested, he would follow along the line with it. 

Mr. Whitley. How long did he remain there? 

Mr. Ness. I do not recall exactly. I believe he was there when I 
left. T do not recall exactly. 

Mr. Whitley. What is the O. D., or the so-called orderly division, 
of the bund? 

Mr. Ness. That is the Orrchurtt Dienst. They were storm 
troopers. 

Mr. Whitley. Do they call themselves that? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. In private, at least? 

Mr. Ness. In private and in public. 

Mr. Whitley. They did at that time at least? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Schwinn tell you, or did you hear, that this 
orderly division was modeled after the storm troopers division in 
Germany ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. That it was modeled after them? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir; it was the same thing as the storm troopers 
in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. What function did they perform ? 

Mr. Ness. They were the official bodyguard of Fuehrer Schwinn, 
and, also, to maintain order in the meetings, or party meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that a special group made up of the more 
trusted and tried members of the bund? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. They have to have special qualifications to go into 
that inner circle? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. It is somewhat of an inner circle, or a confidential 
group, in the bund? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir; and it is a uniformed group. 

Mr. Whitley. What particular uniform do they wear? 

Mr. Ness. Black trousers, white shirts, and black ties, and the 
Sam Browne belt. 



l.\ A.UEUKAN I'KOl'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 5505 

Mr. Whitley. Do they have special meetings ,in the bund? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. At which the rank and file members are not present? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what procedure was followed at 
those meetings I 

Mr. Ness. No, sir; I do not recall. 

Mr. Whitley. You do not know whether they drilled? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir; I know they drilled. 

Mr. AViiitley. Did you ever attend any of their meetings? 

Mr. Ness. I think you mean so far as discussions were concerned. 

Mr. Whitley. I mean any of their meetings. 

Mr. Ness. I have watched them drill. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you kow whether all of the members of the bund 
were American citizens? Did you ever hear Schwinn comment on 
that, even after the orders went out that they all had to be Amercan 
citizens in order to be members? 

Mr. Ness. We had one member who was to be deported. He was 
still a member, but was to be deported to Germany. He was not a 
citizen of the United States. I knew several other members who were 
not citizens of the United States, but who were ctizens of Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. In all bund meetings, do they indicate even though 
they are supposed to be American citizens whether they owe alle- 
giance to the United States, or whether their allegiance is to some 
other power? 

Mr. Ness. They would owe all their allegiance to Fuehrer Hitler. 
In calling a meeting to order they give their salute of heil, and at the 
end of the meeting there would be a heil salute given three times. 

Mr. Thomas. Are you still talking about 1936? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Thomas, in the latter part of 1936 Mr. Ness 
just dropped out and ceased to be active. He never broke with them, 
but became inactive and gradualh 7 disassociated himself from them. 
So far as you know, you are still on the membership rolls? 

Mr. Ness. So far as I know; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you ever testify before any committee before? 

Mr. Ness. No. sir. 

The Chairman. This is the first time you have ever appeared and 
given testimony about this ? 

Mr. Ness. This is the first time I have appeared before a com- 
mittee. I have discussed it before the Americanization Committee 
of the Disabled Veterans. 

The Chairman. This is the first time you have appeared in public 
before a committee and given testimonj'? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. Did the bund in Los Angeles organize a group for 
target practice? 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir; we had an organization which was formed out 
of the bund, which engaged in rifle practice, and set up a couple of 
teams. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Mr. Schwinn or any other of the bund mem- 
bers or officials indicate to you why they were particularly interested 
in giving the members this training? 



5506 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Ness. Yes, sir. The rifle practice was brought about pri- 
marily for the purpose of developing a familiarity with the use 
of arms among the various members. 

Mr. Dempsey. For what purpose did they want to develop their 
familiarity with the use of arms? 

Mr. Ness. As Schwinn put it, for the purpose of taking over 
control. 

Mr. Dempsey. Taking over control of what? 

Mr. Ness. Taking over the Government of the United States. 

Mr. Thomas. Did they have many members who took advantage of 
that rifle practice? 

Mr. Ness. I believe rifle practice averaged about 18 or 20 members. 
Sometimes we had. considerably more, but I would say the average 
was about 20. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know where they got those rifles from? 

Mr. Ness. Well, they just purchased at first a rifle that we used for 
target practice, and one would have to use the rifle, and then he 
would have five shots, and then later another would use the rifle. 

Mr. Thomas. I mean, were they members of any rifle association? 

Mr. Ness. Pardon? 

Mr. Thomas. Were they members of any rifle association? 

Mr. Ness. That I do not know ; but Egan, who was the head of the 
rifle practice and instructor in rifle practice, had been an instructor 
in the German army during the World War. He was an expert rifle- 
man from Germany. 

Mr. Thomas. What was the full name of that man who was a Ger- 
man army instructor? 

Mr. Ness. Max Egan — E-g-a-n. 

The Chairman. The committee has some rather important work to 
do this afternoon, and suppose, Mr. Counsel, we recess until tomorrow 
morning at 10 o'clock. 

Mr. Whitley. And then continue with Mr. Ness? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

The committee will stand in recess until tomorrow morning at 10 
o'clock. 

(Thereupon the committee recessed until tomorrow, Friday, Octo- 
ber 6, 1939, at 10 a. m.) 



INVESTIGATION Of UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVI- 
TIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



FRIDAY, OCTOBER 6, 1939 

House of Representatives, 
Special Committee to Investigate 

Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. G. 

The committee met at 10 a. m., in the caucus room, House Office 
Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding. 

Present: Messrs. Dies, Mason, and Thomas. 

Also present: Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

The Chair's attention is called to a statement made by Mr. Harry 
C. Lamberton, chairman of the local branch of the American League 
for Peace and Democracy. The Chair will issue a written statement 
in reference to this, as well as with reference to other Communist 
front organizations, sometime today. 

On January 3, last, this committee reported to the Congress unani- 
mously that certain organizations in this country were dominated 
and controlled by the Communist Party. Among those organiza- 
tions was the American League for Peace and Democracy. That was 
the decision of the committee, and, as I said, it was a unanimous 
decision, concurred in by the so-called New Dealers and anti-New 
Dealers, as well as Republicans, or by everyone alike. In spite of 
that decision by this committee, many hundreds of Government 
employees continued to retain their affiliation with, not only this 
organization, but with other front organizations of the Communist 
Party. These employees know, or they should have known for more 
than a year now, or for at least a year, that they are members of a 
Communist front organization. Despite that fact, the membership 
lists which this committee obtained from the files of that organiza- 
tion revealed that many employees of the Government have continued 
active in that front organization. 

Now, we have Mr. Lamberton, who is with the Rural Electrification 
Board, and who is the chairman of the local branch of the American 
League for Peace and Democracy, making the statement that this 
committee through illegal trespass, search and seizure without war- 
rant, obtained possession of certain files and records or membership 
lists of the American League for Peace and Democracy. In fact, 
a local demonstration was held by that league the other night at 
which those statements were made. Yet. the Chair holds in his pos- 

5507 



5508 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

session a letter from Mr. Lambertson dated September 29, 1939,. 
addressed to the Chair, in which he says : 

We are turning over to your Mr. Robert B. Barker a membership and financial 
list, a mailing list, and application list, requested in subpena dated September 
28-29, respectively. 

This information, of course, would have been available to you without subpena 
had a request for it been made of a responsible official of the Washington 
branch. Our national office has always made it clear that any information 
in the league's records is open and available to the committee. 

In other words, the Chair has a letter here in which the league 
voluntarily turns over this data and membership list to the committee, 
and then for some unexplainable reason here is the chairman of the 
league deliberately making the statement that this committee has 
illegally obtained those records through different illegal actions men- 
tioned in the statement. The facts are that the membership list was 
surrendered to this committee, both here, in Chicago, and elsewhere, 
without any objection — that is, without any protest. 

The letter from the American League for Peace and Democracy is 
dated September 29, 1939, and I will give it to the press. The chair- 
man is Harry C. Lamberton; vice chairmen, Dallas W. Smythe and 
Sterling Brown; executive secretary, Eleanor Fowler; recording secre- 
tary, Janet Gaines; treasurer, Fred Silcox; members at large of the 
executive committee, Edwin S. Smith and Eava Budd; chairman of 
committees — on membership, Mrs. Gordon Dunthorne; legislation, 
Henry Lehman; publicity, Alice Barrows; finance, Michael Naigles; 
literature, Sophia Pressman; and education, Edward Huberman. 

If you want to see this letter, together with the subpena and this 
voluntary agreement to submit the matter, I will show it to the press. 

Of course, this congressional committee found that this organiza- 
tion and others were controlled by the Communist Party. The evi- 
dence then obtained and obtained since then by the committee demon- 
strates that fact, and there can be no further controversy as to the 
parentage of this organization; and when hundreds of Government 
employees who have belonged to it for many years continue to belong 
to it, after they know that it is a front organization of the Communist 
Party, it does raise in the Chair's mind, at least, speaking for him- 
self, a serious question as to what the motives of those Government 
employees are in continuing their affiliation with the Communist front 
organization, after a committee of Congress has found the true facts 
with reference to that organization, and then defying the committee 
and attributing to it ulterior motives, and charging the committee 
with the sabotage of social objectives, and making other statements 
derogatory to the committee. That raises, to the Chair's mind, a most 
serious question as to what are the views and purposes of Government 
employees who are members of this organization when they continue 
their affiliation with the organization after the facts have been deter- 
mined. 

Mr. Mason. They do not attempt to deny the fact that the Amer- 
ican League for Peace and Democracy was set up, initiated, and 
established by agents direct from Moscow, do they? That informa- 
tion is contained in the hearing of last year. 

The Chairman. In answer to your question about that, as a mat- 
ter of fact, from the correspondence and files which were made pub- 
lic, including letters by officials of the league, and from the attitude 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5509 

that had been taken, there can be no question in anybody's mind but 
whal the Communis* Tarty set up the American League for Peace 
and Democracy, and that it has largely dominated it from that time 
to the present time. 

This committee has not violated any law in securing possession of 
those records. They were obtained under a legal subpena. The rec- 
ords were turned over to the committee, and I have here a letter from 
Mr. Lamberton agreeing to the very thing that he is now denouncing 
the committee for, which is a well-known Communist tactic. 

I might add this, that if there is any question about what the 
activities are, here is a document that was obtained under subpena 
from the Communist Party headquarters that will give an idea of 
what is going on in the city of Washington, from their own reports. 
I might say that the membership lists that this committee seized run 
into the thousands, and I personally was absolutely amazed at the 
people who belong to this front organization. While there might 
be some excuse or justification for those who joined a year or 2 years 
ago, before they had a chance to know about it, after this committee 
has had witness after witness on the stand, day in and day out, testi- 
fying to the facts, supported by documentary evidence, if they con- 
tinue to belong to such an organization, and defy and denounce a 
congressional committee, it raises, I think, a very serious question. 
That is not only true here in Washington, but it is true of Chicago, 
as appears in the record. 

(Thereupon the committee took a recess, subject to the call of the 
Chair.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



FRIDAY, OCTOBER 6, 1939 

House of Representatives, 
Special Committee to Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. G. 

The committee met at 2:20 p. m., in the Caucus Boom, House 
Office Building, Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) presiding. 
Present: Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee. 
Mr. Whitley. Shall we proceed with Mr. Ness, Mr. Chairman ? 
The Chairman. Yes. 

TESTIMONY OF NEIL HOWARD NESS— Resumed 

Mr. Ness. Mr. Chairman, I would like to extend my apology to 
the committee. I understood the session was to be at 2 o'clock this 
afternoon instead of this morning. 

The Chairman. Very well. Proceed, Mr. Whitley. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Ness, did Herman Schwinn ever discuss with 
you his activities or connections with the Nazi Party prior to his 
coming to the United States? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; he did. At one time he showed me a picture of 
himself taken in a storm trooper's uniform. That was about 1924, 
in German}-. 

Mr. AVhitley. In other words, he was active as a Nazi storm 
trooper before he came to the United States? 

Mr. Xess. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he proud of those activities? 

Mr. Ness. Yes: he was. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he talk about it? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; he was quite boastful about the fact that he had 
been a member of the storm troopers in Germany prior to national 
socialism. 

Mr. Whitley. Now what officials of the German Government have 
you seen around the German House in Los Angeles, Mr. Ness? 

Mr. Ness. Well. I have seen Dr. Grah and Dr. Gvsling. 

Mr. Whitley. Who is Dr. Grah? 

Mr. Ness. Dr. Grah is the chancelor of the consulate. 

Mi. Whitley. Dr. Grah was chancelor to Dr. Gysling, the consul? 

Mr. Ness. That is right, the German consul. 

Mr. Whitley. Have yon seen both of those officials frequently 
around the German House! 1 

Mi . Ness. Yes: I have. 

94931— 39— vol. 9 17 1)5' 



5512 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr Whitley Did they confer with Schwinn and other officers fre- 
quently ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes ; they did. 

Mr. Whitley. Did the}- ever discuss with Schwinn, Herman 
Schwinn, the matter of the financial conditions o"f the bund and the 
German House, and inquire as to whether the German officials helped 
out financially? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; one time Dr. Gysling, the German counsul gave 
Schwinn $145 to tide over a deficit at the German House. 

Mr. Whitley. Was that deficit a result of regular operations or 
from some special occasion ? 

Mr. Ness. That was during the time that the German battleship 
Karlsruhe was there. 

Mr. Whitley. And it was in connection with the entertainment of 
the crew ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And Schwinn, Herman Schwinn, indicated to you 
that he received the $145, or did you actually see the consul give that 
money to Schwinn ? 

Mr. Ness. Schwinn told me he had. 

Mr. Whitley. That he had given it ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever have any conversation with Schwinn 
as to whether the German officials had to be careful in their contribu- 
tions and financial aid to the bund? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; Schwinn and also Dr. Gysling told me that they 
had to be very careful because they could not have it officially known 
that the money was coming from the consulate. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, they had to make their financial 
contributions on the quiet? 

Mr.. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And they could not let it be known that they were 
helping out? 

Mr. Ness. Dr. Gysling once said that if there ever was an investiga- 
tion into un-American activities, such as the Dies committee, that 
would be one of the things to be uncovered, that he had helped them. 

Mr. Whitley. He made it known that he was concerned as to the 
probability of some organization or committee finding out that he 
had helped the bund financially? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And he mentioned that to you personally? 

Mr. Ness. He mentioned the Dies committee and mentioned the 
fact that if they ever had another investigation it would probably 

uncover the fact 

Mr. Whitley (interposing). You say the Dies committee. The 
Dies committee was not in existence at that time. You mean the 
McCormack committee or the Dickstein committee. 
Mr. Ness. Dickstein. 

Mr. Whitley. That was the committee he referred to ? 
Mr. Ness. That was the committee. 

Mr. Whitley. And said that if they ever had another such investi- 
gation it might find that out? 
Mr. Ness. Yes. 



UN-AMEBICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5513 

Mr. Whitley. That he had contributed to the bund? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Were you there on any occasion when recordings, 
Nazi recordings, were played or reproduced at the German House, 
Mr. Ness; speeches, for instance? 

Air. Ness. Yes. I recall one incident now where Schwinn went 
into quite an elaborate introduction of a speaker. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Ness. On that occasion Dr. Gysling was to be one of the speak- 
ers of the evening and after Schwinn had elaborated on his intro- 
duction of the speaker thev played a record of a speech given by- 
Adolf Hitler. 

Dr. Gysling came out on the platform expecting to speak but 
instead he switched over to this record. 

Mr. Whitley. And Schwinn made an introduction just as he was 
introducing a speaker who was to speak? 

Mr. Ness. Yes: he did; that is why Dr. Gysling became confused 
about it. Schwinn introduced this speaker in such a way that one 
would believe that this speaker was coming out now to give a talk. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Ness. And Dr. Gysling came out on the platform, on the stage. 
fully prepared to make a talk, but instead the record of Adolf Hitler's 
speech was portrayed. 

Mr. AYiiiTLEY. Was put on? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Dr. Gysling maintain, especially during 1936 
when you were active in the Los Angeles bund, did he maintain or 
have close contact with Schwinn both personally and by telephone? 

Mr. Xess. Yes; he did. 

Mr. Whitley. Would you say he had very close contact with the 
bund's activities? 

Mr. Xess. Yes. He telephoned him almost daily and he was there 
three or four times each week. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, impressed you that he was taking 
an active and personal interest in the bund's affairs? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, you mentioned yesterday, Mr. Ness, and I will 
ask you again today, when you first became associated with the 
organization in Los Angeles it was known as the Friends of New 
Germany, and the name was changed to the German-American Bund. 
Did Herman Schwinn ever tell you what that change meant, if any- 
thing, and the extent of the change? 

Mr. Xess. The extent of the change was in name only. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he tell you that? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he say anything about the declared policy of 
the new organization, that is. with reference to its having only 
American citizens in the organization? 

Mr. Xess. Yes: that was the policy of the new organization; it 
was to have only American citizens in the organization. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Schwinn say whether the organization was 
following that policy? 



5514 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Ness. No; they were decidedly not following that policy, be- 
cause they maintained in their membership citizens of the Third 
Reich. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, it is not correct to say that they had 
only American citizens ? 

Mr. Ness. That is not true at all. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, did you ever have occasion to personally dis- 
cuss with Dr. Gysling, the German counsel at Los Angeles, the finan- 
cial condition of the German house and the bund in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. At one time I took up the financial problems of the 
German house with Dr. Gysling, and he mentioned then that if I could 
get a lease on the house, that he would support it financially. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, if you could get the lease in your own 
name ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitely. That he would take care of the financing? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The idea was that putting it in your own name, he 
thought he could divorce the consulate and the bund's connection in 
some way ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; he wanted to get Schwinn out of the picture at that 
time. 

Mr. Whitley. He thought Schwinn was doing a bad job of it 
-financially ? 

Mr. Ness. Well, not only with the financing but also with the propa- 
ganda. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Ness. He felt that a native-born American would do more good. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. 

Mr. Ness. In putting on the propaganda for the Third Reich. 

Mr. W t hitley. That it would not be so subject to criticism? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That was the idea ? 

Mr. Ness. That was the idea, 

Mr. Whitley. Nor did you on several occasions discuss with Her- 
man Schwinn the proposition of directing the platform or the program 
of the bund in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. We directed the policy, the platform, on the same 
basis that Adolf Hitler had brought out his platform. 

Mr. Whitley. You used the same platform in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; we had the same 25 points that Hitler had. 

Mr. Whitley. During your discussions with Schwinn concerning 
the platform did he make any reference to the Nazi attitude concerning 
the Catholics? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; he did. He mentioned that we would follow the 
same policy and program that Hitler had followed; that is, that we 
would commence with the attack upon the Jews and after we had 
beaten down the Jews we would go after the Catholics. 

Mr. Whitley. He mentioned that part of the program? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he say that was the same policy that had been 
followed in Germanv? 



UN-AMKIUKAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5515 

Mr. Ness. Yes; that had been Adolf Hitler's policy; that he first 
began with the attack upon the Jews, and then later switched over to 
the attack upon the Catholics. 

Mr. Whitley. Included the Catholics? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In the religious attack? 

Mi. Ness. That is right, 

Mr. Whitley. During the later part of 193(5, did you have occasion 
to meet <>r become acquainted with an individual called Captain 
Beamish 1 

Mr. Xess. I recall that Captain Beamish came from South Africa, 
and was the representative of the German Government in the AVorld 
News Service. 

.Mr. Whitley. That is what is known as a German organization 
known as World Service? 

Mr. Ness. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Captain Beamish associate or work with Her- 
man Schwinn and the bund officials while he was in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; he made his headquarters at the German House. 

Mr. Whitley. He made his headquarters at the bund house? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he wear any insignia of any kind to identify him- 
self with any of the organizations of the German Government? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; he wore one on his left arm — a band. 

Mr. Whitley. I sec. 

Mr. Xess. That was a stripe which had an insignia of the German 
Nazi Party. 

Mr. Whitley. The swastika ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. That was a sort of arm band? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; on his left arm. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he attend the meetings or address the meetings 
of the bund while he was in Los Angeles ? 

Mi-. Xess. Yes; he attended all the meetings while he was there, 
and he was also a speaker on one occasion. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, he took an active part? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In the bund's activities while he was in Los 
Angeles ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes: he was very active while he was in Los Angeles. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, did you ever have occasion to meet Fritz 
Kuhn, the national leader of the bund, Mr. Ness ? 

Mr. Ness. Well, about November of 1936 

Mr. Whitlev. November 1936? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. He visited the Brown house, that was the Ger- 
man House. 

Mr. Whitley. The German House? 

Mr. Ness. And when he arrived he was given a very cordial wel- 
come; received as the fuehrer of the party naturally; and he also 
gave a talk there that evening. 

Mr. Whitley. Gave a talk to the bund? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 



5516 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. In that talk did he encourage the bund to support 
this Government as American citizens, or did he urge them to sup- 
port the Hitler, the Nazi regime? 

Mr. Ness. Well, he spoke principally about Hitler and the regime 
in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Ness. And urged all people that were interested in a better 
form of government in the United States to support Hitler, because 
eventually the bund or the German- American group would take over 
the government of the United States. 

Mr. Whitley. Was it the type of speech that a leader of America, 
real Americans would make ? I say that because Mr. Kuhn said that 
it was the policy of the bund to maintain its interest concerning the 
Government of the United States. 

Mr. Ness. No. Mr. Kuhn spoke that evening entirely as a repre- 
sentative of the Hitler Government in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Ness. And what they would do when they came into power 
here. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. Mr. Ness, were there any representatives of 
any other organizations or groups present at this meeting which 
Kuhn addressed? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; there was a representative of the Silver Shirts. 
And there was also a representative of the Russian Revolutionists. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was the Silver Shirt representative; do you 
recall ? 

Mr. Ness. I do not recall whether Kemp was there or not, I do 
know that Bruce and Tremble were there. 

Mr. Whitley. Bruce and Tremble; both representatives of the 
Silver Shirts? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; they were leaders of the Silver Shirts in Los 
Angeles. 

Mr. Whitley. Was Kenneth Alexander, who I believe is the 
leader in southern California, there that night ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; he was there also. 

Mr. Whitley. How about Mr. Roy Zachary, one of Pelley's Silver 
Shirts representatives? 

Mr. Ness. He was there on that evening. 

Mr. Whitley. He was? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did any of the representatives of any of these 
groups present make speeches? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; Mr. Zachary made a speech on behalf of Pelley, 
and as a representative of Pelley's. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Ness. He mentioned that he was the one man, the fuehrer of 
America, meaning Pelley was the fuehrer. 

Mr. Whitley. Zachary described himself as the right-hand man to 
the fuehrer of America? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. When he was referring to Pelley? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5517 

Mr. Whitley. Did he make any further reference to Pelley's 
position in this country? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; he spoke of the fact that Pelley would soon be in 
a position to take over the control of the Government. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Ness. And that when lie did. why he would pattern the Gov- 
ernment under the same order that Hitler patterned his in Germany. 

Mr. Wiiitlky. Did he compare Hitler and Pelley? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; he mentioned that while Hitler was the savior of 
Germany, Pelley would be the savior of America. 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

Mr. Ness. And that Pelley himself acknowledges the fact that he 
was the Adolf Hitler of the United States. 

Mr. Whitley. I see, and Mr. Zachary was the representative of 
Pelley at that meeting? 

Mr. Xess. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have occasion, while associating actively 
in the bund in Los Angeles to become acquainted with an individual 
named T. K. Ferenz? 

Mr. Xess. Yes. Ferenz was the head of — he owned the Continental 
Theater of Los Ansreles. 

Mr. W t hitley. Yes. 

Mr. Xess. And he received all his films from Germany that he 
displayed. 

Mr. Whitley. In that theater ? 

Mr. Xess. Ran in that theater. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, what was the nature of the films? Were they 
just for amusement purposes, or what did they show? 

Mr. Xess. No; they were entirely propaganda films, they showed 
the development of Germany under the Third Reich, and also what 
Germany could do for other countries. 

Mr. Whitley. Was Mr. Ferenz a bund member ? 

Mr. Xess. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he active in the bund ? 

Mr. Xess. Yes; he was. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have occasion to see some of the German 
films shown at the Continental Theater? 

Mr. Xess. Yes; I have seen the Einer von Wielen; and also Sin 
in the Blood and several others. 

Mr. Whitley. Were they purely propaganda, Nazi propaganda 
pictures ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Were some of the pictures also shown at the German 
House ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; they were shown at the German House and moved 
over to the Continental Theater. 

The Chairman. May I interrupt you there a moment? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes. 

The Chairman. While you were in the bund and closely associated 
with it did you have occasion to meet many German agents who came 
to the United States for various purposes? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; I did. 



5518 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Did you ever have occasion to take a trip with Her- 
man Schwinn and an agent from Germany, and when passing a golf 
club he mentioned the fact that the building was the proving grounds 
for the airships ? Do you remember such an occasion as that ? 

Mr. Ness. I do. I might mention this : That there was one German 
agent who came to Los Angeles — Schwinn told me about 2 weeks 
before he arrived that he was coming, and when he arrived this agent 
wanted to see the position of the American fleet at San Pedro, and 
also the base at San Diego. 

I suggested that we drive down in my car, so we took this agent, 
Schwinn, and myself, and another gentleman, and Ave started out to 
San Diego. 

When we passed a golf club about 20 miles south of Long Beach, 
there was a C. C. C. truck driving up to this golf club, and I men- 
tioned then to Schwinn that this place was the proving ground for 
our artillery unit. 

When I mentioned that this agent became quite excited and he 
wanted to stop and take some pictures of the marine view. I stopped 
the car and backed up about 500 feet so I would be opposite the club- 
house and this German agent jumped out of the car and took three 
or four snapshots of the marine view around that point. 

The Chairman. Do you recall what that man's name was? 

Mr. Ness. I have the name of the agent in my notes but I do not 
have it with me. 

The Chairman. As I understand, your papers and files are in 
Los Angeles; and you were in San Francisco when you got word to 
appear before the committee, is that right? 

Mr. Ness. That is right. When I received word that I was to ap- 
pear before the committee I was in San Francisco and all of my files 
were in Los Angeles. I did not have time to pick them up. 

The Chairman. Those will be available to the committee. Did you 
have occasion to see many agents that you had reason to believe came 
over here for espionage purposes ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

The Chairman. That was going on all the time, was it? 

Mr. Ness. That is right. 

The Chairman. Agents would get oif the boats and go in and about 
that area and were aided by bund members in carrying on that work, 
is that right? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Was there any effort ever made to check up on 
these agents? Did you have any trouble through any enforcement 
agencies ? 

Mr. Ness. Well, at one time I recall a discussion between the 
chairman of the Americanization Committee of the Disabled Vet- 
erans' organization, and Schwinn and myself in which we discussed 
the probability of them checking up on Count von Buelow. Count 
von Buelow in our opinion was the head of the German espionage. 
He was also a very close friend of the chief of the naval intelligence 
in that district. 

The Chairman. What happened as a result of that? 

Mr Ness. Well, all suspicion was allayed. 



rX-AMKUlCAX l'KOl'AGAXDA ACTIVITIES 5519 

The Chairman. Did Schwirin tell you and other officials of the 
bund that they were getting information from all over the country? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

The Chairman. German agents were landing on the west coast; 
did they travel in the interior? Do you know whether they went 
from the west coast to New York or anywhere else? 

Mr. Ness. Well, they did. This one German agent that I spoke 
of — I do not recall his name — he traveled into the interior. Also 
lie went down into Mexico. He left here — that is, he left Los Angeles 
on a Japanese vessel hound for Yokohama, Japan. 

The Chairman. Were there many such instances as the one you 
enumerated? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; quite a number. 

The Chairman. When you took those pictures, did you go on to 
San Pedro — I believe you said San Pedro. 

Mr. Ness. San Diego. 

The Chairman. San Diego. Did you get there? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did he take pictures . through that area? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. We went into the submarine base and the de- 
stroyer base at San Diego, and he took pictures there also. 

The Chairman. So that there was not any question in your mind, 
from your contacts with him, about the true purpose of the bund in 
i hat area, was there? 

Mr. Ness. There was not. 

The Chairman. And there is no question in your mind that it was 
an arm of the Nazi Government for espionage purposes; is that true? 

Mr. Ness. Yes: that is true. 

The Chairman. They were constantly giving information to the 
agents of Germany? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

The Chairman. And they did not take any particular pains to 
conceal their Nazi affiliation, did they? 

Mr. Ness. Well, Schwinn did not to me. I would like to explain 
at this time that I have documentary evidence of everything that 
I have testified to before the committee. 

The Chairman. And you will submit that later on? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; I will submit that later on. 

The Chairman. Have you any more questions, Mr. Counsel? 

Mr. Whitley. Just two or three, Mr. Chairman. I believe you 
testified yesterday, Mr. Ness, that you were one of the members 
of the editorial staff of the official organ on the west coast of the 
bund, the Weckruf. 

Mr. Ness. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you hold any other positions with the bund 
or did they suggest that you hold anv other official positions on any 
committees, or anything of that kind? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. I was chairman of the Deutsches Buhne. The 
Deutsches Buhne is an organization established mainly for the dis- 
semination of propaganda on the stage and through the screen. 

Mr. Whitley. Did the bund on the west coast propose setting up 
an organization known as the camouflage committee? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. I was chairman of the camouflage committee. 



5520 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. What was the function of that committee? 

Mr. Ness. The function of that committee was to distribute propa- 
ganda in a way that it would not be recognized as coming- from 
Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. How did they propose to do that? 

Mr. Ness. Through newspapers, through magazines, through the 
stage. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Schwinn ever make any mention to you, or have 
any conversation with you, with reference to the manner in which the 
Communist Party spread propaganda through innocent or front 
organizations ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. The camouflage committee was to function exactly 
the same as the Communist Party functioned ; that is, we would estab- 
lish cells, and from cells go into wards, and from wards go into larger 
units, and in the spreading of this propaganda we would begin with 
the cells, but we would follow the same policy as the Communist Party 
followed. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Schwinn or Ferenz ever mention to you the man- 
ner in which the Communist Party used front organizations or inno- 
cent organizations to spread their propaganda? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they propose to follow the same tactics? 

Mr. Ness. They were going to follow the same tactics as the Com- 
munist Party. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, use other organizations to spread 
their propaganda? 

Mr. Ness. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they suggest any of the organizations that they 
might use, or were using, in that connection or for that purpose, such as 
the Silver Shirts? 

Mr. Ness. The Silver Shirts, the American Nationalist Party, and 
the Revolutionary Party, and various other organizations were to be 
used. And Dr. Gysling, himself, arranged for talks before various 
groups such as the Lions' Club, Rotarians. that Schwinn would appear 
before and give them a talk on the New Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. And Dr. Gysling was the consul in that area, and he 
would arrange for those talks? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have occasion to know an individual while 
you were active in the bund known as Prince von Lippe ? 

Mr. Ness. I knew him quite well. 

Mr. Whitley. What was he doing? 

Mr. Ness. Prince von Lippe had originally come to the United 
States, how I do not know ; but he came to America. 

Mr. Whitley. From what country? 

Mr. Ness. From Germany, and became quite active in the bund. 
Later on he received a scholarship in the University of Southern 
California. I understand that, or I was given to understand that, 
he received his scholarship from Count von Buelow. But Dr. 
Kleinschmidt and one of the other professors in the University of 
Southern California also vouched for him. 

]\Ir. Whitley. Was he a member of the bund in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; he was a member of the bund. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5521 

Mr. Whitley. An active member? 
Mr. Ness. An active member. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he was using his university 
connections to disseminate Nazi propaganda? 

Mr. Ness. Well, he tried to arrange a series of lectures on the 
Nazi Government, through the high schools in southern California. 
He did get into some of them. 

Mr. Whitley. He got into some of them? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; he got into some of them, but others refused him 
permission to speak. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever talk with him, or did he ever talk 
with you about propaganda activities? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. On one evening I went with Prince von Lippe 
to the home of Mr. Maile, who was one of the technical directors 
of the Manual Arts High School, and Lippe mentioned at that time 
that he would like to give a talk at the Manual Arts. 

Mr. Whitley. Were yon acquainted with an individual named 
Ingraham Hughes? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What was his collection with the bund in Los 
Angeles? 

Mr. Ness. Well, it was entirely cooperative. Ingraham Hughes 
was the head of the American Nationalist Party, and he would co- 
operate with the bund in the promulgation of literature. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he prepare literature for them ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; he did. 

Mr. Whitley. What was his business, Mr. Ness? 

Mr. Ness. Well. I was never able to find out how he made a living, 
excepting through perhaps a list of the people that contributed to 
him. He was the head of the American Nationalist Party, and as 
such received contributions from various people. 

Mr. Whitley. You say he did cooperate closely with the bund? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; he did. 

Mr. Whitley. During your conversations with Schwinn or the 
other bund leaders in Los Angeles, did they discuss with you the 
Silver Shirt Legion or what thev thought of it, or its relations to the 
bund? 

Mr. Ness. Well, yes. We had a working agreement with the Sil- 
ver Shirts that we would pass out their literature and they would 
pass out ours. 

Mr. Whitley. And they attended your meetings and you attended 
theirs? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And they spoke in your meetings and you spoke at 
theirs? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Very close cooperation? 

Mr. Ness. It was. There was a definite working agreement be- 
tween the Silver Shirts and the bund. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe you testified yesterday, Mr. Ness, that Wil- 
liam Dudley Pelley spoke at the German House about the middle of 
1936? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 



5522 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. In Los Angeles? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you meet him on that occasion? 

Mr. Ness. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Whitley. In that speech, did he make any reference to Adolf 
Hitler or the Nazi Government '. 

Mr. Ness. Yes. When Pelley arrived, I was introduced to him; 
Schwinn introduced me to Pelley, so that I was one of the fair-haired 
boys of the National Socialist Party in the United States. And when 
Pelley took the platform he spoke for some time, and mentioned the 
fact that he was called pro-German and he was proud of the fact that 
he was pro-German. He also mentioned the fact that he was called 
the Adolf Hitler of America and he was proud of the fact that he was 
the Adolf Hitler of the United States. 

Mr. Whitley. He admitted that, and boasted about it? 

Mr. Ness. Yes ; he did. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Henry Allen ever come to the German House 
or attend any meetings there? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; he was a frequent visitor at the German House; 
also made a speech there one evening. 

Mr. Whitley. Did he cooperate with the bund and did they co- 
operate with him? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall an occasion on which Mr. Allen was 
arrested for distributing circulars, and the bund assisted him? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. At one time Mr. Allen was arrested for passing 
our circulars on one of the main streets of Los Angeles, on Broadway. 
The bund took up a contribution for the defense committee for Mr. 
Allen. 

Mr. Whitley. To help him get out of his trouble ? 

Mr. Ness. To help him get out of jail ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever have occasion to come into contact 
with Mrs. Leslie Fry, who was at the head of the Christian Free Press 
and also the Militant Christian Patriots? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; I met Mrs. Fry about the latter part of 1936. 

Mr. Whitley. Did she ever have any contact with the bund leaders? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; she had contact with Schwinn. 

Mr. Whitley. How closely did Schwinn cooperate with the so- 
called White Russian organizations on the coast? 

Mr. Ness. He cooperated with them as closely as the White Rus- 
sians would permit him to. 

Mr. Whitley. There was a friendly interchange.? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. They arranged meetings at the German House 
for the Russian Revolutionary Party and Schwinn also spoke at 
meetings of the Russian Party. 

Mr. Whitley. And attended meetings where they were present 
and where they spoke? 

Mr. Ness. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever meet or know of a man, while you 
were in the bund in Los Angeles, named Kendzia ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. There were two Kendzias in the bund. One was 
Paul and the other — I have forgotten his first name; but Paul 
Kendzia was most active. Willie, I think, was the other one's name, 
Willie Kendzia and Paul Kendzia. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5523 

Mr. Whitley. Do you recall an occasion when at a meeting, when 
the roll was called, Hermann Schwinn answered for the names of 
Paul Kendzia and Hans Diebl and Tony Kerner? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What did he say? 

Mr. Ness. When the names were called, he announced to the roll 
master that these men were absent on special duty in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. He said they were absent on special duty in 
Germany \ 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Do yon know whether they were in Germany at 
that time? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; I do. We received mail from them, in Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. And Schwinn explained that they were doing spe- 
cial duty in Germany? 

Mr. Ness. That is right; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you have any occasion to talk to any of these 
men after they returned, with reference to their activities in Ger- 
many \ 

Mr. Ness. Yes. I met Paul Kendzia after he returned; also Tony 
Kerner and they told me what wonderful work was going on in 
Germany, and how, according to the German schedule, we would 
have a Hitler government in the United States very shortly. 

Mr. Whitley. Incidentally, Mr. Ness, did the bund members and 
officials, in talking among themselves, refer to the bund as the Na- 
tional Socialist Party in the United States, or make any references 
of that kind? 

Mr. Ness. Well, they often referred to the fact that they would 
take over the Government here and become the leading organization. 

Mr. Whitley. Did they actually consider themselves a branch of the 
National Socialist Party? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I mean, did they so express themselves? 

Mr. Ness. That is right. 

The Chairman. What was the greatest membership that they ever 
built up in that area? You said about a hundred would attend these 
meetings. Is that the greatest number they ever had there? 

Mr. Ness. No; we had as many as about 700. 

The Chairman. Seven hundred was the membership of the bund 
there ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you ever have Hermann Schwinn represent him- 
self to be an official of the Nazi Government, the German Govern- 
ment \ 

Mr. Ness. Yes. I recall one time there had been a Dr. Redely; I do 
not know just exactly what his official capacity was insofar as medicine 
was concerned, but he called himself Dr. Reddy. He had given a very 
anti-Semitic talk at the Pacific Yacht Club, and after we learned about 
that we went down to see Dr. Reddy. 

Mr. Whitley. Who do you mean by "we"? 

Mr. Ness. Schwinn and myself. When we got down to see Dr. 
Reddy. he was not at home, but his wife was there, and Schwinn said 
we were representatives of the German Government and would like 



5524 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

to talk to Dr. Redely about getting together on his anti-Semitic pro- 
gram. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, when Schwinn heard that Dr. Keddy 
had made an anti-Semitic speech, he immediately went down to see. 
him, to see if he could get him to cooperate with the bund? 

Mr. Ness. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. When he went to Dr. Reddy's house, he described 
himself to Mrs. Reddy as an official of the German Government? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. When he met Mrs. Reddy, Schwinn introduced him- 
self and myself also and said that we represented the German Govern- 
ment in southern California. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Schwiim and Dr. Reddy ever 
did get together or not? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; they did. Dr. Reddy came up to the German 
House at one time and had lunch) with Schwinn and discussed the 
program that they were to follow. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Schwinn ever had any cor- 
respondence with Adolf Hitler directly, or ever wrote him, or re- 
ceived any communications from him? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. Schwinn at one time showed me a picture of him- 
self taken in a storm trooper's uniform before he came to America, 
and he mentioned that he was one of the close associates of Adolf 
Hitler in the early days of the National Socialist Party in Germany. 
About the fall of 1936 we received a letter that was personally signed 
by Adolf Hitler, at the German House in Los Angeles, commending 
us upon our good work in southern California, praising us for our 
effectiveness. 

Mr. Whitley. To whom was that letter addressed ? 

Mr. Ness. That letter was addressed to Hermann Schwinn and the 
German-American Bund. 

Mr. Whitley. It was addressed to him and the bund? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you see the letter? 

Mr. Ness. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Whitley. And it was signed by Adolf Hitler ? 

Mr. Ness. It was signed personally by Adolf Hitler, 

Mr. Whitley. And he was praising Schwinn and the bund in 
southern California for the good work that they were dsing? 

Mr. Ness. That is right ; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did Schwinn bring that letter to the attention of 
the membership of the bund ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. We had about 150 members present on that eve- 
ning, and Schwinn read the letter. 

Mr. Whitley. That was a regular meeting? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; that was a regular meeting. When he. read the 
letter, he mentioned also the fact that it was personally signed by 
Hitler. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether Mr. Schwinn knew Fritz 
Kuhn in Germany before he came to this country? 

Mr. Ness. That, I do not know. 

Mr. Whitley. You never heard him mention that? 

Mr. Ness. No. But I do know that at one time Schwinn was very 
anxious to take over the position of national fuehrer. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5525 

Mr. Whitley. He was ambitious to supplant or replace Kuhn? 

Mr. Ness. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Professional rivalry in the organization? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I believe that is all I had in mind, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Just to summarize: As I understand from your 
testimony, when these German agents came to the United States for 
the purpose of taking pictures and getting information, they received 
the fullest cooperation from bund officials, is that correct? 

Mr. Ness. That is right. 

The Chairman. They were carried in automobiles to strategic points 
and were shown every courtesy and given every aid by the bund? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

The Chairman. They were entertained at bund meetings, too, were 
they not ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; that is right. As a matter of fact, the bund was 
practically turned over to them when they arrived. 

The Chairman. And over a long period of time — that is, as long as 
you were in the bund — these agents were coining and going. As the 
ships would come in, they would get off the ships and drive around all 
over the country taking photographs of different places on the west 
coast, is that right ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

The Chairman. Some of them would make trips to the interior, is 
that right ? 

Mr. Ness. That is right. 

The Chairman. And here were 700 members of the bund, and, so far 
as you know, most of the bund members cooperated with these agents, 
is that correct? 

Mr. Ness. They did. 

Mr. Whitley. And bund members, were they employed in various 
plant;- and factories in the interior? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; they were employed in various industrial activities. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know of any in particular who were employed 
in plane factories, or any type of munitions factories? 

Mr. Ness. We had one member by the name of Schnuke. He was 
employed by Douglas Aircraft. He was the brother to the man 
that had been the national fuehrer some years ago. 

Mr. Whitley. That was when it was still the Friends of New 
Germany \ 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was he an active bund member \ 

Mr. Ness. Yes; he was. 

The Chairman. Were not most of the members of the bund skilled 
workmen? 

Mr. Ness. The biggest majority of them were; yes. 

The Chairman. I know that in the testimony in Chicago we were 
told that by the bund leaders: that most of their members were 
skilled workmen, and worked usually throughout the key industries 
in that section. 

Mr. Ness. Yes. Most of them were machinists or mechanics of 
some kind, or shop foremen. 



5526 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. And all of them were great admirers of Hitler, 
were they not? 

Mr. Ness. They all were. 

The Chairman. There was not any question about their feeling 
for nazi-ism? 

Mr. Ness. No. As I mentioned previously, all of our meetings 
were called to order on the basis of "Heil Hitler," and when we 
adjourned, our meetings were adjourned on u Sieg Hitler." 

The Chairman. And did they say that the bund in the United 
States Avas similar to other organizations that the Nazi Government 
had built up in other countries, such as the organizations that they 
had built up in Czechoslovakia and in Poland, and in different 
countries of South America? 

Mr. Ness. The general understanding was that the bund here in 
the United States was an arm of the German Government in Ger- 
many, and we patterned after the National Socialist Party in 
Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. From your experience in the bund and your obser- 
vation of their activities, even though many of them were American 
citizens, would you say that their first loyalty, their feeling of 
loyalty, was to the United States or to Germany? 

Mr. Ness. It was decidedly to Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. There was no question in your mind about that? 

Mr. Ness. No question at all. No question when any of the bund 
members were there. 

Mr. Whitley. From your knowledge of the bund and its members, 
and your observation of them, in the event there were a Avar betAveen 
the United States and Germany, would their loyalty be with the 
United States or Avould they be actively loyal to Germany? 

Mr. Ness. They Avould actively be loyal to Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. And that would include eA^en performing espionage 
and sabotage, if they thought it would help Germany? 

Mr. Ness. That is correct. 

Mr. Whitley. And there is no question in your mind about that, 
from your knoAvledge of the organization and its members, and their 
attitude. 

Mr. Ness. None Avhatever. We discussed that frequently at our 
meetings. 

Mr. Whitley. The bund members discussed that ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. The question of whom they would be loyal to? 

Mr. Ness. Yes ; and as to what Ave would do in the event of an armed 
conflict betAveen Germany and the United States. 

Mr. Whitley. And Avas there ever any question that the bund and 
its members would help Germany ? 

Mr. Ness. No. We always discussed what we Avould do toAvard help- 
ing Germany, such as blowing up AvateiAvorks and munitions plants 
and docks. 

Mr. Whitley. Espionage? 

Mr. Ness. And espionage; yes. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, that was actually discussed at meet- 
ings, and the discussion went so far as to make plans as to Avhat the 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5527 

bund could do to help the nazi government in the event there was a 
conflict ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And those various members suggested blowing up 
waterworks and docks? 

Mr. \i:ss. Yes. We had about a hundred members on the Pacific 
coast at one time that we could depend on to paralyze the defense on 
the Pacific coa^t. 

Mr. Whitley. Did the bund go to the point of making definite plans 
as to what could be accomplished along that line? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And they actually discussed it at their meetings? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. How to paralyze certain industries or activities on 
the coast? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; we planned on paralyzing the Pacific coast from 
Seattle to San Diego. 

Mr. Whitley. By sabotage? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; which included blowing up the Hercules powder 
plant, where they make munitions, and also blowing up all of the 
docks and warehouses along the water front. 

Mr. Whitley. That is the type of discussions that went on, and the 
plans that were made in this organization which Fritz Kulm describes 
as a strictly American political organization. 

Mr. Ness. Well, there is nothing American or political about the 
organization at all. It is purely an arm of the German Government. 
At least that was my observation. 

Mr. Whitley. That is all. 

The Chairman. The committee will now go into an executive 
session. 

(Whereupon the committee went into executive session.) 

(At the conclusion of the executive session the committee proceeded 
in open session as follows:) 

TESTIMONY OF NEIL HOWARD NESS— Recalled 

Mr. AVhitley. Mr. Chairman, after Mr. Ness left the stand he told 
me in conversation — he gave me some information that I thought 
might be of interest to the committee, and should be in the record. He 
stated he did not mention it previously because he did not think it 
was important. I thought it might be important, because, to my mind, 
it explains further how he was able so quickly to get the complete 
confidence of the leaders of the Friends of New Germany and the 
German-American Bund in Los Angeles. 

Mr. Ness, I believe you testified yesterday that you were in the 
Army during the war? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What was your position in the Army? 

Mr. Xkss. Well 

Mr. Whitley. Your rank? 

Mr. Ness. It varied. I was an enlisted man and promoted i«; the 
rank of corporal. 

94931— 39— vol. 9 18 



5528 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. What branch of the service were you in ? 

Mr. Ness. I was with an Artillery unit. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you see service overseas? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Whitley. Following the war, did you remain over there? 

Mr. Ness. No; I came back to the United States and was dis- 
charged here, and then I went back to Germany. 

Mr. Whitley. What year was that ? 

Mr. Ness. That was 1919. 

Mr. Whitley. What did you do in Germany? 

Mr. Ness. I went to school at the University of Berlin. 

Mr. Whitley. You attended the University of Berlin ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. For how long? 

Mr. Ness. For 6 vears. 

Mr. Whitley. For 6 years? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What courses did you pursue there? 

Mr. Ness. I pursued engineering courses. 

Mr. Whitley. You pursued engineering courses? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you get any degrees? 

Mr. Ness. I took a bachelor of science degree and a master of 
science degree. 

Mr. Whitley. A bachelor of science degree and a master of science 
degree ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. During that 6-year period did you learn to speak 
German fluently? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; I learned it quite well. 

Mr. Whitley. Did you make many friends, some of whom you 
have seen and associated with later in the United States? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. Quite a number of my classmates are now No. 1 
Nazis. 

Mr. Whitley. You have seen and had contacts with them, and be- 
cause of your past association in Berlin, Germany, naturally they 
were more inclined to take you into their fold or into their confidence; 
is that correct? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Can you name any members of the Los Angeles 
Bund in particular whom you first knew in Berlin? 

Mr. Ness. Count von Buelow, although he has never been a member 
of the bund. He is one that I strongly suspect is the head of the 
German espionage system on the west coast. He is the son of the 
General von Buelow of World War fame. 

Mr. Whitley. How long has he been on the west coast, Mr. Ness? 

Mr. Ness. I believe about 6 years. 

Mr. Whitley. Have you known him and been in contact with him 
off and on during that period? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; I have. 

Mr. Whitley. Is he closely associated with the bund posts on the 
west coast? 

Mr. Ness. Yes: lie is. 



DN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5529 

Mr. Whitley. Even though he is not a member? 

Mr. Ness. He is not a member, and all of his visits to the bund are 
kept secret. 

Mr. Whitley. They do not want any one to know that he has 
contact with them? 

Mr. Ness. No; nor does he. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know what activity he is engaged in out 
there? 

Mr. Ness. He is not engaged in any particular activity at the 
present time, to my knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. Is he following any occupation ? 

Mr. Ness. No. He married a very wealthy woman that was inter- 
ested in his title. He lives at Point Loma, near the San Diego naval 
base. 

Mr. Whitley. Do yon know of any of his activities or connections 
out there that have caused you to suspect him of being engaged in 
espionage ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. He is very much interested in the fleet maneuvers, 
the United States fleet maneuvers. He goes for extensive surveys of 
the battle fleet and the destroyer fleet maneuvers. 

Mr. Whitley. He is a flyer, is he not ? 

Mr. Ness. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Is he not an aviator? 

Mr. Ness. No; he is not an aviator; at least, not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know how he feels with reference to the Nazi 
regime in Germany \ 

Mr. Ness. He is 100 percent Nazi. 

Mr. Whitley. He is Nazi; he is not American. 

Mr. Ness. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Is he an American citizen? 

Mr. Ness. I do not know if he is an American citizen or not. 

Mr. Whitley. But whether he is or not. vou know of your own 
knowledge that he is a Nazi ? 

Mr. Nkss. Yes; I know he is 100 percent Nazi. 

Mr. Whitley. Do you know whether he has any or has had any con- 
tacts with these German agents. Nazi agents, who circulated through 
there from time to time? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. At one time lie and Schwinn and myself visited 
one of the German boats in Los Angeles. And he visited the German 
House on quite a number of occasions: and when he did, and when I 
became acquainted with the fact, he asked me to keep it quiet — not to 
mention that he had visited the German House. 

Mr. Whitley. Do Schwinn and the other bund leaders out there 
look up to him as one with authority? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; they do. 

Mi\ Whitley. You think that conies from his title or from some 
confidential mission that he is performing? 

Mr. Ness. I think it comes from the position he holds in the Nazi 
( rovernnient. 

Mr. Whitley. It is your best judgment, from your acquaintanceship 
with him and your observation of his activities, that he does hold some 
official position with the Nazi Government? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; I think he does. That is purely a thought on my 
part. 



5530 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. He has never confirmed that, but that is your opinion 
based on your own observations ? 

Mr. Ness. Yes; if I were classify him, I would classify him as an 
official of the Nazi Government. 

Mr. Whitley. It was through your use of the German language, 
plus the 6 years you spent in Germany, plus the friends you had, 
such as Count von Buelow, that made it possible for you to get into 
the inner circle of the bund so quickly, is that right ? 

Mr. Ness. That is right, 

Mr. Whitley. Because you could speak their language; because 
you had been to Germany? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And they took you into their confidence without 
any question? 

Mr. Ness. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. I am glad to get that explanation for the record. 

The Chairman. The committee will adjourn until 9 : 30 tomorrow. 

(Whereupon, the committee adjourned to meet on Saturday, Oc- 
tober 7, 1939, at 9 : 30 a. m.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVI- 
TIES IN TIIE UNITED STATES 



SATURDAY, OCTOBER 7, 1939 

House or Representatives, 
Special Committee to Investigate un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. C. 

The committee met at 9:30 a. m., in the Caucus Room, House 
Office Building, Hon. Martin Dies, chairman, presiding. 

Present : Mr. Rhea Whitley, counsel to the committee, and Mr. 
J. B. Matthews, director of research for the committee. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

TESTIMONY OF ERNEST BAUMANN, SALESMAN 

(The witness was sworn by the chairman.) 

Mr. Matthews. Where do' you live, Mr. Baumann? 

Mr. Baumann. 48 Montclair Ave., Buffalo, N. Y. 

Mr. Matthews. Where were you born? 

Mr. Baumann. Buffalo. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you lived in Buffalo all of your life? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. When were you born? 

Mr. Baumann. October 28, 1895. 

Mr. Matthews. What is your present occupation? 

Mr. Baumann. Salesman of lubricants. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Baumann, at what age did you become inter- 
ested in the labor movement? 

Mr. Baumann. On about my second year in high school, or about 
the third year; at about 16. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you take any active part in the labor move- 
ment at that time? 

Mr. Baumann. The first active part I took was in the street-car 
union, preparatory — before the strike in 1913; I sold labor news- 
papers on the street. 

Mr. Matthews. Since that time have you been more or less con- 
tinuously occupied in the trade-union matters? 

Mr. Baumann. Y r es ; more or less. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please give some details of your connec- 
tions with trade-union organizations? 

Mr. Baumann. Well, 1913, that was the beginning, and again in — 
I think 1921 or 1922 I assisted in the switchman's strike. 

Then in 1923 in the street-car strike, collecting 

Mr. Matthews (interposing). All those in Buffalo? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. 

5531 



5532 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. After 1923? 

Mr. Baumann. In 1923 I was more or less in the work, helping 
unions, whenever possible, speaking for them, the different unions, 
but I wasn't directly connected with any of them until 1934. 

Mr. Matthews. 1934; what union activities did you have? 

Mr. Baumann. Aircraft Federated Union. 

Mr. Matthews. Aircraft Federated Union? 

Mr. Baumann. Of the A. F. of L. 

Mr. Matthews. That was an affiliate of the A. F. of L. ? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And how long were you engaged in that activity? 

Mr. Baumann. Why, I had been consulted by some of the leaders 
prior to the strike in 1934 as to the advisability of striking against 
the Curtiss Airplane and the Bell Aircraft, and I advised against 
either and before the board pleaded for them not to strike. I did not 
think they were strong enough, but I was "booed" down by the radi- 
cal element, called a coward, and they went on strike. 

The strike lasted about 6 weeks; in March, I think, it was started, 
and — March or the latter part of February, because I know it was 
rather cold at that time. They had about 2,200 out on strike. 

And all through that strike I conducted or organized public meetings 
through the city to get sympathy for the strike and collected money, 
organized soup kitchens, got religious organizations interested in col- 
lecting food for strike headquarters. We supplied — I had or supplied 
kitchens. There was no money in the union. That was one of the 
reasons I did not want them to strike. But I worked with the presi- 
dent of the union, who was a very intelligent man but knew nothing 
about trade-unionism, and he wanted to get along, and he had mis- 
advisers who were constantly urging him to use violence in the strike, 
even to use dynamite. And I kept on urging them to take it easy and 
just have peaceful picketing, but the Communists couldn't see it my 
way, until sometime around the latter part of March they really started 
out in earnest, and they would stone the cars in front of three or four 
hundred policemen until the policemen started to throw tear gas; they 
were provoked in a different way. 

I saw in one instance at that strike the thing that I was against 
and tried to prevent, where women would stick hatpins in policemen's 
horses and when they were arrested throw a fit so when newspaper 
photographers would be there, why, it would look as if they were 
being manhandled. 

Then the next I was requested by the Furrier Workers who at 
that time were controlled by a man by the name of Lucchi 

Mr. Matthews. That was in 1934? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes; that was late in the spring. 

Lucchi was not a Communist; he was a right winger in the 
union and they were preparing for a strike. At that time he 
couldn't get recognition from the employers. 

So, I assisted in that strike. 

And then in 1935, in the summer, late summer of 1935, I was con- 
tacted by one of the vice presidents of the International Ladies' Gar- 
ment Workers and requested to work for their organization and try 
to set up an organization in the Buffalo mills, in the cotton garment 
industry. 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5533 

Mr. Matthews. Did you accept thai position? 

Mr. Baumann. 1 did. 

Mr. Matthews. What were your activities in that connection? 

Mr. Baumann. Well, I was an organizer, trying to get the workers 
to organize. 

Mr Matthews. How long did vou maintain your connection with 
the I. L. G. W. U. \ 

Mr. Baumann. Until the later part of the following year. 

Mr. Matthews. 1936? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And what was your next connection with trade- 
union organizations? 

Mr. Baumann. That summer I was requested by several people to 
take over the — I was in business at that time and I left the busi- 
ness — to take over the International Ladies' Garment Workers job 
and the Dry Cleaners who had had a union the year before and that 
union was broken up by strikes and they wanted a new union and 
didn't want any strikes, so they asked me if I would organize them, 
so I donated 2 months of my time to getting them organized. 

Mr. Matthews. Was this in the summer of 1936? 

Mr. Baumann. That was in the late summer — no, I think it started 
in October of 1936. 

Mr. Matthews. Of 1936. And after that what were your next 
trade-union connections ? 

Mr. Baumann. Wait. I must be mixed up on my dates, because 
it wasn't in the summer of 1936. I was with the American Labor 
Party in the summer of 1936 until election, and it was right after 
election that the dry cleaners had me, and then we organized — -I 
organized — the dry cleaners, and I was with the dry cleaners until 
the following part of February 1937, when the directors of the Steel 
Organizing Committee asked me to come with them. 

Mr. Mason. May I interrupt for a moment? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Mason. I am wondering, since there seems to be quite a 
different controversy over the names of Government officials who 
are Communists and who are members of Communist front or- 
ganizations, why we do not do something about it, Mr. Chairman, 
or why the committee does not do something about it. 

What steps are being taken to obtain the list of names and what 
can we expect from this? 

The Chairman. The committee obtained by subpena the member- 
ship list of certain organizations that the committee unanimously 
found last year to be front organizations of the Communist Party. 

Among those organizations was the American League for 
Peace and Democracy, and several other organizations of a similar 
character. 

We secured their membership list, and that list is now being 
checked against the civil service list of Government employees, 
and we will have available a full, accurate, and complete list of 
Government employees who belong to Communist organizations, that 
is, organizations that this committee has found unanimously to be 
dominated and controlled by the Communist Party. 



5534 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Now, that list was received in evidence, and the stenographer 
will note. 

(The list referred to was marked as an exhibit.) 

The Chairman. As to whether the list will be made public is a 
matter for the committee to determine at a later date. 

Mr. Mason. But it will be a part of the record? 

The Chairman. It is to be a part of the record. 

Mr. Mason. Very well. 

The Chairman. Now, so far as the Communist Party itself is 
concerned, a witness yesterday testified that under orders from the 
Communist Party all records of members were destroyed a year 
ago, and that witness denied that he knew more than four or five, 
and he could not name more than four or five. 

Of course that is the situation we are met with everywhere. They 
have been instructed, a long time *ago, to destroy membership 
records and none of them are going to admit to any membership ex- 
cept where they have been confronted with definite written records 
which they cannot dispute. 

The witness did identify such records as containing such names 
and that matter will come out. 

The Chair wants to make it clear that all of the names that we 
have secured from the records or from these organizations themselves, 
from their membership lists, each one of the organizations of which 
we have secured membership lists, are organizations which the com- 
mittee unanimously found to be front organizations of the Commu- 
nist Party. That is all a part of the record of this committee and it 
is for the committee to decide at a later date whether it wants to 
make it public or not. 

I think that is sufficiently clear so there will be no misunderstand- 
ing. 

Mr. Mason. There is no question as long as we have the list as a 
part of the record. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Baumann, you stated the directors of the Steel 
Organizing Committee approached you for some work. Who was the 
director who approached you? 

Mr. Baumann. Charles Payne. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he the director of the State organization? 

Mr. Baumann. He was for western New York — not, western New 
York; all of New York; Utica, where the steel mills are located; and, 
the Province of Ontario. 

Mr. Matthews. And what work did he ask you to undertake? 

Mr. Baumann. Organizing workers of the steel mills. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you accept that position? 

Mr. Baumann. I did. My work of organizing the Dry Cleaners 
had been completed and I had a position as business agent and I had 
rather be organizing workers than sitting in the office directing 
something, after the work is done so I took the job as I thought the 
job of organizing was in a much-needed field. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the year and month, Mr. Baumann? 

Mr. Baumann. It was in February of 1937, or the early part 
around the 1st of February 1937. 

Mr. Matthews. How long were you connected with the Steel Organ- 
izing Committee? 



DN-AMERICAJS PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5535 

Mr. Baumann. Until the 1st of August 1938, when I wont on leave 
of absence. 

Mr. Matthews. Now what other trade-union connections have 
you had '. 

Mr. Baumann. Well, various. I mean just in the capacity of 
speaking for them at different times and in the headquarters of. the 
Amalgamated Clothing Workers. 

The Chairman. You arc still connected with union activities? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes: I am still a member of the Steel Workers' 
Union. 

The Chairman. You are still working with them? 

Mr. Baumann. Although I never worked in a steel plant, but I 
became a member as the result of my organizing activities. I still 
have a card. 

The Chairman. You have not changed your situation except you 
are not active as an organizer? 

Mr. Baumann. That is right, 

The Chairman. I think you have made a basis, Mr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you still believe in the right of the workers to 
organize? 

Mr. Baumann. Absolutely. Absolutely I am still assisting in 
putting the steel workers on a volunteer basis. In the Republic 
Steel, I helped the Labor Board a few months ago in preparing 
its case against the Republic Steel. 

The Chairman. What I am getting at is this: The claim is often 
made against the committee's witnesses that they are stooges, or 
somebody wdio has a grudge and they just come up here to hurt 
some union activities. 

Mr. Baumann. My purpose — and I am still consulted on affairs 
in the union by rank and file members and by officers of the union,, 
and while I am out of the union I still work for their interests. 

Mr. Mason. You are still interested in the real welfare of the 
workers ? 

Mr. Baumann. I speak for them practically every week and I am 
still interested in their welfare. 

Mr. Mason. That is what I wanted to bring out. 

Mr. Baumann. The real reason I appear before you is I want the 
workers themselves to know 7 what it is all about. 

The Chairman. I think that is sufficient, Suppose you get down 
to the meat of the things he knows about, 

Mr. Matthews. I think it is important to introduce some of his 
connections with officials. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Mr. Matthews. In establishing his credentials. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. I will read to you a letter from the staff of the 
United States Department of Labor, office of the Secretary, signed 
by J. R. Steelman, Director of Conciliation. 

Mr. Ernest Baumann. 

Steel Workers Organizing Committee, 

Underhill Building, Buffalo, N. Y. 

Dear Mr. Batimann : Commissioner Thomas M. Finn has told me of the fine 
cooperation yon have given our service, and has asked me to send you some 
material regarding our work. I am Indeed glad to do this, and hope you will 
find the publications of interest. 



5536 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

May I express my personal appreciation for your cooperation, and assure you 
of our desire to be of assistance whenever possible. 

I hope you will come by to see me whenever you are in Washington. 

That letter is dated March 4, 1938. 
Did you receive that letter from Mr. Steelman? 
Mr. Baumann. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Another letter from the staff of the National Labor 
Relations Board, dated March 28, 1939 : 

Re Republic Steel Corporation 
Mr. Ernest Baumann, 

84 Montclair Avenue, Buffalo, N. Y. 

Dear Ernie : As you have probably read in the paper, we are getting ready to 
go to trial on the Republic Steel case. For this reason I would appreciate your 
stopping in at the office some time Friday, so that I can go into this matter 
with you. 

This letter is signed "Edward D. Flaherty, regional attorney." 

Did you receive that communication, Mr. Baumann? 

Mr. Baumann. I received it about 7 months after I was away from 
the Steel Workers, because they could not get any information from 
the Steel Workers' officials. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, I have also letters from the Steel Workers 
Organizing Committee ; one letter from the Chicago office, and another 
from the Pittsburgh office. 

From the Chicago office, under date of March 31, 1938, which letter 
reads : 

Mr. Ernest Baumann, 

Representative, Steel Workers Organising Committee, 

305 Underhill Building, Buffalo, N. Y. 
Dear Sir and Brother: Your letter of March 30, giving a report of the 
election at the Wickwire-Spencer Steel Co., Buffalo, N. Y., received. 

I sincerely hope you will be able to negotiate a satisfactory agreement with 
this company. 

Congratulations for the good work. 
Very truly yours, 

(Signed) Van A. Bittneb. 

Did you receive that letter? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, indeed. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is Van A. Bittner? 

Mr. Baumann. He is, was one of the Steel Workers 7 Organizing 
Committee directors at Buffalo at that time. 

Mr. Matthews. Another letter from the Steel Workers Organiz- 
ing Committee, Pittsburgh, Pa., elated April 18, 1938. 

Mr. Charles Payne, 

Field Director, Steel Workers' Organizing Committee, 

.Wo Underhill Building, Buffalo, N. Y. 
Dear Sir and Brother: This is to acknowledge receipt of your communica- 
tion of April 11, regarding negotiations with the Worthington Pump & Machin- 
ery Corporation. 

During my absence from the city last week, I believe you discussed the 
matter by telephone with Regional Director Clinton S. Golden and reached an 
understanding with him. regarding your situation. It is my understanding that 
negotiations will not be started at Buffalo until after Mr. Lever has concluded 
his conference with the officials of the company at Harrison, N. J. 
Very truly yours, 

That is signed "Phillip Murray, chairman." 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5537 

What posit ion did you have at that time, Mr. Baumann? 

Mi-. Baumann. Well, I was acting director. Payne was out of 
town. Of course it was addressed to Payne because he was in charge 
of that area. And, 1 was acting director, and I was the one who 
really talked to Golden, and we conferred over the telephone as to 
what was going along. 

Mr. Matthews. Here are two letters from Alex Eose, State execu- 
tive secretary, American Labor Party, both are addressed to you, 
Mr. Baumann. One is dated July 29, 1938, and the other November 
11, 1938, both of which letters expressed great appreciation for your 
work in the field organizing for the American Labor Party. 

The Chairman, just let those letters go in the record. 

(The letters referred to follow:) 

American Labor Party, 
151 West Fortieth Street, Netc York, July 29, 1938. 

Mr. Ernest Baumann. 

Amalgamated Clothing Workers Union, 

86 West Chippewa Street, Buffalo, N. Y. 
Dear Mr. Baumann : This communication will serve to confirm your designa- 
tion as the State Office representative for the Labor Party in western New 
York State. This territory will include the counties of Erie, Niagara, Chau- 
tauqua.. Cattaraugus, Genesee, Orleans, and Wyoming. 

Of course, you understand that my consent to your appointment was obtained 
after being convinced that your background, experience, and character would 
be suited to the pressing demands made of our field organizers. Certainly 
your trade-union organizational experience and the months of activity in our 
behalf for the 1936 campaign should provide you with advantages rarely pos- 
sessed by many persons who have evinced a strong desire to perform the duties 
and functions assigned to you. 

Be all that as it may, let me extend my best wishes for the successful negotia- 
tion of what will most certainly prove a difficult task. You are being en- 
trusted with the all-important mission of advancing the combined cause of 
labor and liberalism. You are charged with the creation, the building, and 
.lit- preservation of the greatest political movement in the history of New York 
State. 
Good luck ! 

Sincerely yours, 

(Signed) Alex Rose, 
State Executive Secretary. 



American Labor Party, 
151 West Fortieth Street, New York, November 11, 1938. 
Mr. Ernest D. Baumann, 

Care of Amalgamated- Clothing Workers Union, 

86 West Chippewa Street. Buffalo, N. Y. 

Dear Mr. Baumann : I want to express my thanks and congratulations for 
your splendid cooperation and organizing abilities while acting in the capacity 
of held representative in Erie, Niagara, and Genesee Counties for the American 
Labor Party in upstate New York. Your fruitful efforts, in conjunction with 
the wholehearted support of our rank and file party workers, made possible 
our historic advance this last year. 

For the aforementioned reasons, it becomes especially difficult for me to 
inform you of the necessity for financial retrenchment. Rest assured that our 
inability to retain you at the present time in a paid capacity is no reflection 
on your splendid record. As a matter of fact, I shall be very anxious for 
your continued leadership in your section of the State in a voluntary capacity. 

You have every reason to feel proud of the part you played in helping the 
American Labor Party stem the tide of reaction and retain the State of 
New York for the New Deal. 
Sincerely yours. 

(Signed) Alex Rose, 
State Executive Secretary. 



5538 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. You received both of those communications, Mr.. 
Baumann ? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And you did engage in activities in behalf of the 
American Labor Party at various times? 

Mr. Baumann. Every election. 

Mr. Matthews. Every election since 1936? 

Mr. Baumann. Since 1936, as regional director. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Baumann. in the course of the last 16 
years it appears that you have had active connections with six or 
seven trade-unions in the Buffalo area '. 

Mr. Baumann. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In the course of those activities did you become 
acquainted with most of the persons engaged in trade-union activities, 
in Buffalo? 

Mr. Baumann. In that time I knew practically all of the leaders. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you able, from those contacts, to identify 
the political connections of the various persons engaged in trade- 
union activities in Buffalo? 

Mr. Baumann. Well, I was able, through knowing actually what 
happened, I was able to separate the disruptive element in the union,. 
those that were using politics in the union for their own use. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you become personally acquainted with Com- 
munists who were leaders in the organization of workers in Buffalo? 

Mr. Baumann. I do not think there was an active Communist in 
the trade-unions in Buffalo that I did not know. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you please state for the committee the 
way in which you came to enter the work of the C. I. (). in the Buffalo 
area ? 

Mr. Baumann. Well, as I said, I was requested by Payne to come 
with them. He had heard of my work in organizing unions ; the dry 
cleaners; I organized them after everybody else had failed, and with- 
out any strike, and signed up all of the wholesale dry cleaners. 

And he was having a difficult time organizing the steel workers. 
He had a lot of organizers that did not know what it was all about, 
who were more interested in the political organizations than they were 
in industrial, and he wanted somebody that could do some organizing 
and so I went with them. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, when you first went to the office of the Steel 
Workers' Organizing Committee, what situation did you find with 
respect to the presence of Communists? 

Mr. Baumann. Well, at that time, I got in with them and I found 
out that all of the organizers they had there, all but Payne and 
one other fellow, I think, were Communists. 

Mr. Matthews. How many were there in all ? 

Mr. Baumann. There were seven or eight. I have their names 
here. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please identify them? 

Mr. Baumann. Well, Charles Doyle. He was — and he never 
tried to hide the fact that he was a Communist. His name was in 
the list as Communist organizer, and he led the 1934 strike in the 
metal workers, a strike which was Communist led, a strike with no 
members, practically, in the union, and led to terrible results. 

And there was Norman Ross. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5539 

Doyle was living in Buffalo and had been living in Buffalo for 
10 or 12 years prior to that time, but not a citizen. 

There 'was Norman Ross. He came from Brooklyn. I do not 
know his right name, but that could not have been his right name, 
because ho was Polish. The name was Norman Ross, but he used to 
speak on the street corners for the Communist Party, and there was 
no doubt about him being a Communist, 

And John Sobieraj ; he was Polish and he had at various times 
been a candidate for public office on the Communist ticket. 

The Chairman. Will you spell that name again, please? 

Mr. Baumann. S-o-b-i-e-r-a-j. 

Then there was a colored fellow by the name of Joseph Greene. 
He was a Communist organizer among the colored workers. 

As soon as I got there and he described what happened 

Mr. Matthews (interposing). Were there any other organizers? 

Mr. Baumann. There was another organizer; and there w T as an- 
other organizer who wasn't a Communist. 

Mr. Matthew's. Were there others that you were able to identify 
as Communists? 

Mr. Baumann. No; there was only the one organizer besides Payne 
and myself. 

Mr. Matthews. All right. Now will you please give the circum- 
stances under which you met these organizers; how did you know 
they were in the C. I. O. ? 

Mr. Baumann. The second that I was there we had a staff meeting; 
w-e called them all together. 

In the staff meeting all of the men who were to be used as or- 
ganizers were called. 

Mr. Matthews. What were your reactions in finding out these 
Communists occupied the major positions on the staff? 

Mr. Baumann. Well, I waited until after the meeting was over and 
the rest had gone out, and I had been helping Payne out at times prior 
to that; we were actually working a short time, and I said : "Charles," 
1 said, "you cannot organize steel workers in Buffalo with this crowd, 
because without Allen every man you have got here is a Communist. 

"Besides yourself" — he was from West Virginia — I said, "all of 
these people know these organizers and have been victimized in the 
1924 strike. 

"And a majority of the people, the steel workers in Buffalo, are 
either Polish, Italian, or Irish, and they are all Roman Catholics, and 
they won't have anything to do with Communists." 

"Well," he said, "I can't do anything about it • I didn't hire them. 
And I can't fire them." 

So I asked him who hired them, and he told me who hired them. 
He said somebody who was over him, and he said, after all, these 
fellows are willing to work. He said, "We have got to have some- 
body." 

So that was the reaction. He said : "As soon as I can get away with 
ii .*" he says, "I am going to fire them all." 

Then I said to him — I said, "Charles, I will get to work; I don't 
want to hang around the office here. If you want these men, well, 
that is up to you." 



5540 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

And I said, "Give me the names, all yon have got, of organizers in 
the Kepublic Steel"; and I said. "I will organize, using volunteer 
organizers." 

So he gave me 25 names of men lie said who had been signed up 
by Greene. He was the Negro Communist. 

So I went out that day and investigated the 25. and I found out 
that every one of them was a fake; that none of the people lived at 
the addresses given; some were addresses of street intersections ; one 
was the City Music Hall; some at garages, and they were just fake 
names; and so in the course of 1 or 2 weeks I found out about 200 
such names. 

And through investigating the list, the average, taking 1 name in 
every 10, 1 saw that every one of the 500 were fakes that he had signed 
up, that he and Doyle had signed up. 

That was the list he gave, representing that he was an organizer, 
and that he had a membership of over 500 in the Republic Steel, when 
they didn't have anybody — maybe a half a dozen. 

Mr. Matthews. You found out that the 25 names that were given 
to you were phoney names? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. You did not find a single one 

Mr. Baumann (interposing). Not of the first 25. The second 25 
I found 1 fellow who had been working at the steel plant 3 or 4 years 
before. 

The Chairman. I do not know that I understood the effect of the 
testimony. How many fakes did you find? 

Mr. Matthews. He said when he went there to work with the 
C I. O. he found that a majority of the organizers were Communists. 
He told the director that he could not organize with Communists. 
He asked for a list of names of the rank-and-file members of the 
union, and that list they turned over to him contained 25 fake names. 

The Chairman. Out of how many? 

Mr. Matthews. Of the rank-and-file members who had been 
turned over by organizers as members, not a single bona fide address 
was in that entire list. 

The Chairman. You do not know how many of the total number 
were fakes? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes; I do. The next day I took 25; the next day 
I took 25; you could not handle more than 25 in a day. And they 
were all practically in the same locality, and we did not locate any 
except Pine Street, 

The Chairman. So that they were all fake names? 

Mr. Baumann. More or less; I would say practically 90 percent 
of them. 

The Chairman. Of the names given you, how many names alto- 
gether were given you? 

Mr. Baumann. There were about a hundred — about 200 names; 
altogether. I worked on it for 2 weeks. 

The Chairman. And about 90 percent of them were fake names? 

Mr. Baumann. Really more than 90 percent. I am estimating 
that 90 percent of the whole 500 were; there were probably 99 per- 
cent of those that were fake. 

The Chairman. These 500 names were supposed to be members 
of what union? 



UN-AMERICAJN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5541 

Mr. Baumanx. The stool workers union in Republic Steel. 
Mr. Matthews. In Republic Steel? 

Mr. B AIM ANN. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. How had those names been compiled? 

Mr. Baumann. The organizers, Doyle and Green, would go around 
in different ways, methods that they have of organizing and contact- 
ing tin' workers. That is the way it is supposed to be done. But 
what they really did, I found out later from investigation, Green 
would go into a saloon and buy a beer for the crowd there of his 
own people, and one of them would sign three or four cards. with 
differenl names, and another one would sign three or four cards; 
and most of them I proved from my knowledge of handwriting, 
were signed by Green himself. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you confront Green with that handwriting. 

Mr. Baumanx. Yes. After I got all this evidence, kept on getting 
this evidence, Payne called Green in before he and I, and we con- 
fronted him with it, and he denied it at first, and, when I pinned 
him down on the handwriting, he admitted it. 

Mr. Matthews. Here was a Communist organizer for the steel 
workers organizing committee who had turned in 500 names as mem- 
bers of a union ? 

Mr. Baumann. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And you found out by investigation that approx'- 
mately 90 percent of them were phony names? 

Mr. Baumann. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, would you like this witness to 
stand aside for a moment? 

The Chairman. Yes; Mr. Baumann, will you stand aside for just 
a few moments? Mr. Matthews, you may call your next witness. 

TESTIMONY OF DOUGLAS JACOBS, CAMPAIGN DIRECTOR, SPANISH 

REFUGEE RELIEF CAMPAIGN 

(The witness was duly sworn.) 

The Chairman. Your name is Douglas Jacobs? 

Mr. Jacobs. That is right. 

The Chairman. Where do you live? 

Mr. Jacobs. In New York City. 

Mr. Matthew's. What is your address in New Y^ork City? 

Mi-. Jacobs. 72 University Place. 

Mr. Matthews. How long have you lived in New T York City? 

Mr. Jacobs. I have lived in New York City this time for about tw^o 
and a half years — '2 years. 

Mr. Matthews. Where did you live prior to that? 

Mr. Jacobs. In the Middle West and in California. 

Mr. Matthews. Where did you live in the Middle West? 

Mr. Jacobs. I beg your pardon. 

Mr. Matthews. Where in the Middle West did you live? 

Mr. Jacobs. St. Louis, Mo. 

Mi-. Matthews. Is that the only place yon have lived in the Middle 
West? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes. Mr. Chairman, may I just inject a remark here at 
this moment ? I would like to say that I received this subpena to 
appear late last night, and I have not the slightest idea why I am here. 



5542 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

I would like time, inasmuch as I came to Washington to attend a con- 
ference, to obtain an attorney. I have not any idea what my rights 
are, or what the powers of this committee are. 

The Chairman. All we want to do is elicit some information from 
y on. It is nothing incriminating. 

Mr. Jacobs. I understand that. 

The Chairman. We just want to get certain information. What 
conference are you going to attend? You were going to go into that, 
Mr. Matthews? 

My. Matthews. Yes. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Matthews. Where did you live on the west coast ? 

Mr. Jacobs. In Los Angeles and San Francisco. 

Mr. Matthews. What is your occupation, Mr. Jacobs ? 

Mr. Jacobs. At the present time I am campaign director of the 
Spanish Refugee Relief Campaign. 

Mr. Matthews. How long have you had that position? 

Mr. Jacobs. Since February of 1938. 

The Chairman. Is that an organization ? Will you develop that ? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

The Chairman. What is the name of the organization ? 

Mr. Jacobs. The Spanish Refugee Relief Campaign. 

The Chairman. Is it an incorporated organization? 

Mr. Jacobs. No ; it is not an incorporated organization. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it the Spanish Refugee Relief Committee? 

Mr. Jacobs. No; Campaign; the Spanish Refugee Relief Cam- 
paign is its present name. It is an outgrowth, I might say, of two 
other committees which previously existed in the Spanish refugee 
relief field and the Spanish relief Held generally. One of those was 
called the Medical Bureau and the other was called the North Amer- 
ican Committee to Aid Spanish Democracy. Subsequently they 
merged, and became the Spanish Refuge Relief Campaign. 

The Chairman. Who are the officers in this committee? 

Mr. Jacobs. The officers, sir? 

The Chairman. Who is the chairman of it? 

Mr. Jacobs. The honorary chairman is Mr. Harold L. Ickes. The 
chairman is Bishop Francis J. McConnell. The vice chairmen are 
Mrs. Casper Whitney and Mr. Philip Merrivale, and the treasurer 
is Dr. Guy Emery Shipler. 

The Chairman. What position do you hold with it? 

Mr. Jacobs. I am the campaign director. 

The Chairman. The director? 

Mr. Jacobs. Of the campaign. 

The Chairman. And you are down here on a conference with 
reference to it, and also to address the conference? 

Mr. Jacobs. That is right. I intend to address the conference this 
afternoon with reference to this work. 

The Chairman. I just wanted to get the background of the organ- 
ization, that is all. Proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. How king have you held this position? 

Mr. Jacobs. Since Februarv of 1938. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5543 

Mr. Matthews. Is the organization, the Spanish Refugee Relief 
Campaign, registered with the State Department? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. So that it is an organization? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you a member of the American Newspaper 
Guild? 

Mr. Jacobs. I was. I am not eligible any longer. 

Mr. Matthews. What is the name of the local organization under 
whose auspices you are speaking at the present time? 

Mr. Jacobs. I am going to speak, intend to speak, at a national 
conference of the workers of this organization, the Spanish Refugee 
Relief Campaign, and a conference was called by the national office, 
not by any local organization. 

Mr! Matthews. Is the Washington Friends of Spanish Democracy 
an affiliated body? 

Mr. Jacobs. It is a branch of the national campaign ; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Who are the officers of the Washington Friends 
of Spanish Democracy? 

Mr. Jacobs. I am sorry, I can onlv mention one. I am not familiar 
with all the officers of the branches. Mr. Leon Henderson, I believe, 
is the president. 

Mr. Matthews. Is Mrs. Rosalie Colby the executive secretary? 

Mr. Jacobs. She has a position; whether it is exactly executive 
secretary, or some other title, I am not sure. She is, however, in 
active charge of the work in the office. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you a member of the Communist Party, Mr. 
Jacobs? 

Mr. Jacobs. I am not. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Jacobs. No; I have not. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you acquainted with Miss Peggy Vance? 

Mr. Jacobs. I think I am; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, don't you know whether you are or not? 

Mr. .Jacobs. Well, I cannot remember the name offhand. I did 
meet somebody called Vance in San Antonio when I was working 
for the Newspaper Guild there. 

Mr. Matthews. And you just have a vague recollection of the 
name? 

Mr. Jacobs. I think her name was Peggy. I know I met a Miss 
Vame there. There were two sisters, I am not sure which was which. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the sister's name? 

Mr. Jacobs. I cannot remember offhand; I do not remember. 

Mr. Matthews. You would recognize your own handwriting with- 
out any question, I presume, Mr. Jacobs? 

Mr. Jacobs. I think I would; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that a letter of yours [handing paper to 
witness] ? 

Mr. -Jacobs. It looks like it. 



it in.°.l— 39— vol. 9 19 



5544 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Is that your handwriting? 

Mr. Jacobs. It looks very much like my handwriting; unless it is 
a fine forgery. 

The Chairman. A man knows his own handwriting, does he not? 

Mr. Jacobs. There are eases where somebody has forged hand- 
writing. I do not even know the contents of this letter. I think it 
is my handwriting; yes. That is the best answer I can give. 

The Chairman. All right, 

Mr. Matthews. Glancing at that letter, it would appear that you 
are faily well acquainted with a girl whom you address as Peg? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you identify Peg further? 

Mr. Jacobs. I imagine it is Peggy Vance, now that you recall the 
name to my mind. 

Mr. Matthews. You met Miss Vance in San Antonio, did you? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you have any extended correspondence with 
Miss Vance? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes; for a time I had both business and personal corre- 
spondence. 

Mr. Matthews. Was Miss Vance a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Jacobs. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. Was her sister, Miss Helen Vance, a member of the 
Communist Party? 

Mr. Jacobs. I think Helen was the name; I do not know whether 
she was a member of the Communit Party or not. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know a Mr. Bob Williams? 

Mr. Jacobs. Not that I recall. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you attend the Party Builders Congress of the 
Communist Party in New York a year or two ago? 

Mr. Jacobs. I do not know. I have attended meetings which have 
been held by the Communists. I do not know what the Party Builders 
Congress was. 

Mr. Matthews. You have no recollection of having attended that? 

Mr. Jacobs. No ; I cannot identify the meeting you mention. 

Mr. Matthews, In this letter addressed to Peg, you say : 

Last night Helen and I went to the Party Builders Congress. 

Mr. Jacobs. Do I say where it was or what it was ? 
Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Last night Helen and I went to the Party Builders Congress in Madison Square 
Garden. 

Mr. Jacobs. If that is what it was, then I went to a meeting at Madi- 
son Square Garden. It may have been the Party Builders Congress. 
If I said so, no doubt it was. I have gone to relatively dozens of meet- 
ings at Madison Square Garden called under the auspices of dozens of 
groups, and when you phrase a question as you do, I could not honestly 
answer that I was sure of it. 

Mr. Matthews (reading) : 

It was a pretty good meeting, but not as good as I had hoped for. Browder 
was sick, and unable to attend. No doubt you will read all about it in the 
Daily Worker. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5545 

Could you give some indication as to why you had hoped this Com- 
munis) Party Builders Congress would bo more of a success than 
it impressed you as being? 

Mr. Jacobs. I think perhaps I can. What was the date of this 
conference or congress meeting? 

Mr. Matthews. 1 would not know. The letter is dated February 22. 

Mr. .Jacobs. Well, in all probability, my hopes, expressed at that 
time, were in relation to my work which I had just undertaken recently, 
and the position of the Communist Party in regard to the Spanish sit- 
uation. I would say that generally. Certainly, it' there were anything 
else in my mind at the time, it was in relation to the published program 
of the meeting, and that I do not recall at all. 

Mr. Matthews. The postmark on the envelope in which this letter 
was forwarded in New York, February 23, 1938. The letter is dated 
Pel unary 22, without the year. Do I understand that Browder was 
not there, and that that had something to do with the meeting not 
being as successful as you had hoped? 

Mr. Jacobs. Well, sir. the only way in which I could honestly answer 
that question is to tell you that I do not honestly recall the meeting. 
At the time it may have made some impression on me. I may have had 
some expectations for it. But if you ask me today if I were disap- 
pointed, all I can say is, if I said that the meeting w 7 as not as good as 
I had hoped for, apparently that is so. I have not the slightest idea 
what the meeting was, or to what extent my interest in its existed, 
or what my interest was based on. 

Mr. Matthews. You knew of Miss Vance's interest in the Com- 
munist Party, did you not ? 

Mi-. Jacobs. Which Miss Vance? 

Mr. Matthews. Miss Peggy Vance, the one to whom you addressed 
the letter. 

Mr. Jacobs. I knew she was interested in all liberal movements, and 
radical movements, to some extent, too. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you classify the Communist Party as a liberal 
movement ? 

Mr. Jacobs. I said radical movements also. I assume it comes un- 
der the second head. 

Mr. Matthews. You go on in this letter to say : 

After the meeting I met the "D. O." 

Who is the "D. O."? 

Mr. Jacobs. As I recall the phraseology of the times, I imagine the 
"D. O." would be the district organizer; some district organizer of 
the Communist Party somewhere. 

Mr. Matthews. You know that that is the manner in which the dis- 
trict organizers of the Communist Party are referred to, do you not ? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes; they were at that time. I have had very little 
contact with them since. I might add here, if it is of any value to you, 
thatl have not seen either of the persons you have referred to for a 
long time. 

Mr. Matthews. This letter is about 18 months old. 

Mr. Jacobs. I say for a relatively long time. 

Mr. Matthews. You go on to say — 

We all went to get something to eal and sat up talking half the night. 



5546 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

That is, with the district organizer of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Jacobs. I assume so. I do not recall the meeting. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you no recollection what the topics of con- 
versation were with the district organizer of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Jacobs. None whatsoever. I could not even identify the gen- 
tleman. I do not know who he was. 

Mr. Matthews. Would you like to glance into this letter further ? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes ; I should be glad to. 

Mr. Matthews. Before you state whether or not you were extraordi- 
narily well acquainted with Miss Vance [handing letter to witness]. 

Mr. Jacobs. Mr. Chairman, as far as I have read through this, I 
might say that this appears to me to be a personal letter to Miss Vance. 
It has nothing to do with business. 

The Chairman. Were you intimately acquainted with her? You 
said before you had a; slight acquaintance and could not remember 
very well. 

Mr. Jacobs. I said that I did not remember her first name, and 
I also said that I had had both business and personal correspondence 
with her, as I recall my testimony a moment ago. 

The Chairman. Well, counsel is not reading any of the personal 
matter. He was referring to your meeting with the district organ- 
izer of the Communist Party and attending some Communist meet- 
ing. You are not reading the personal sections of the letter, are you ? 

Mr. Matthews. No. 

The Chairman. We are not interested in that. There are just 
certain excerpts with reference to your activities with the Communist 
groups that we are interested in. 

Mr. Matthews. I also want to ask him, after he has read the letter, 
if the letter does not indicate to his own mind now that he was very 
well acquainted 

The Chairman. Well, there is no question about that. 

Mr. Jacobs. Of course, none at all. 

Mr. Matthews. With Miss Vance. 

Mr. Jacobs. I knew her a relatively short period of time, and I 
knew her quite well, I would say. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you make any efforts to have Miss Vance come 
to New York? 

Mr. Jacobs. Miss Vance had said she would like to come to New 
York and I had made some inquiries about the possibilities of getting 
her a job, and mentioned her in the national offices as a prospect for 
a job. 

Mr. Matthews. And you discussed that whole situation with her 
sister in New York, did you not? 

Mr. Jacobs. I think I probably did, but I do not recall it. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, in a letter which I have before me there 
are frequent references to a "Mr. J." 

Mr. J., as you no doubt know by this time, has a new job as publicity manager 
of the North American Committee to Aid Spanish Democracy. 

That would indicate a reference to you, would it not? 
Mr. Jacobs. I cannot tell you, sir, because I do not know. 
Mr. Matthews. Were you the publicity manager of the North 
American Committee? 

Mr. Jacobs. I was the campaign director. That was my title. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5547 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know anyone else who might have held 
the position as publicity manager of the North American Committee 
to Aid Spanish Democracy, whose initial was U J" ? 

Mr. Jacobs. No; I do not recall any other such person. I might 
add, however, that there have been a number of persons holding that 
job. 

Mr. Matthews. But you did hold the job which could properly be 
described as publicity manager? 

Mr. Jacobs. It might : yes. 

Mr. Matthews. I see further on in this letter that you are referred 
to as Jacobs, so the "J"' undoubtedly 

Mi-. Jacobs. That would seem to leave little doubt about it. 

The Chairman. There is no question about that, is there. Mr. 
Jacobs? We want you to be perfectly frank. 

Mr. Jacobs. I am trying very hard to be. 

The Chairman. There is no question that that refers to you. is 
there '. 

Mr. Jacobs. No; as he has read, it mentions my name, Jacobs. 

The Chairman. Do I understand that you testified awhile ago that 
you had never been a member of the Communist Party \ 

Air. Jacobs. That is right ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You have been very closely affiliated with them? 

Mr. Jacobs. I have had just as much contact with them as I have 
had with dozens of other similar groups, and that contact at times 
has been relatively close; yes. 

The Chairman. Your contact at times with the Communist Party 
has been very close? 

Mr. Jacobs. Relatively close. I do not know what you mean by 
very close. 

The Chairman. Well, you have met with the leaders and discussed 
the plans and things with the leaders of the Communist Party, have 
you not? 

Mr. Jacobs. If I have ever done it, it has only been in relation to my 
work; not in relation to any program or policy of the Communist 
Party. 

The Chairman. Just in relation to your particular work? 

Mr. Jacobs. That is right. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you interested in the work which Miss Vance 
was doing in San Antonio, connected with the pecan workers organi- 
zation and strike? 

Mr. Jacobs. I knew very little about that work, but what little I 
knew about it. I was interested in; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you semi any contribution to Miss Vance for 
that work? 

Mr. Jacobs. I might have. I remember one time in the letter she 
asked me for some, and whether I responded or not. I do not know. 
I do not recall; honestly. 

Mr. Matthews. You were always sympathetic with that work? 
Mr. Jacobs. With the pecan-shellers strike? 
Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Jacob-. Yes, I was. 

Mr. Matthews. Having known Miss Vance as well as you say you 
did. and as well as the correspondence indicates, would you not think 



5548 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

it a bit extraordinary if you did not know she was an active member 
of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Jacobs. Not at all, sir. 

Mr. Matthew's. Did her sister, Helen, disclose to you her connec- 
tions with the Communist Party or the Young Communist League? 

Mr. Jacobs. Not that I recall. I know she disclosed to me her 
sympathies and interests in the youth movement, as I recall, and the 
Young Communist League. But that is a very different thing, in my 
estimation, that mentioning any particular connection, professional 
or otherwise. If you would rephrase the question, perhaps I can 
answer it more honestly. 

Mr. Matthews. No. I am asking you if you did not think it 
extraordinary that you would not know about the Communist affili- 
ations of Miss Vance in view of your close acquaintance with her — 
Miss Peggy Vance? 

Mr. Jacobs. I have just testified that I do not know of Communist 
affiliations. Now, maybe I do not understand what you mean by 
Communist affiliations. 

Mr. Matthews. Let me ask you this question, then. Did you ever 
meet the State secretary of the Communist Party from Missouri? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What is his name? 

Mr. Jacobs. I think his name is Wagenknecht. 

Mr. Matthews. And with whom did you meet Mr. Wagenknecht, 
the State secretary of the Communist Party from Missouri? 

Mr. Jacobs. I have not any idea at the moment. 

Mr. Matthews. Could it have been with Miss Helen Vance ? 

Mr. Jacobs. It might have been, but if it were it certainly would 
not have been in Missouri, as I did not know Miss Vance in Missouri. 

Mr. Matthews. I did not say it was in Missouri. 

The Chairman. You certainly can remember 18 months ago 
whether you met the director of the Communist Party with Miss 
Vance. You would remember any such occasion, would you not? 

Mr. Jacobs. I think I probably would. I think I probably do. 
You are recalling it to my mind. Was not he the person — and I ask 
this very honestly — who was referred to in the previous letter that 
you read just a moment ago? 

Mr. Matthews. No; Mr. Wagenknecht is the State secretary of 
the Communist Party of Missouri and would not be referred to as 
the district organizer. 

Mr. Jacobs. Then, if that is not the same person. I really do not 
know if, or whether I ever met this person with Miss Vance. That is 
a quite frank answer. 

Mr. Matthews. Of course, I would not want to say you did not 
use the title, district organizer, for Mr. Wagenknecht. You may have 
intended that. 

Mr. Jacobs. I have not any idea and I am not familiar enough with 
such terms to know which would be correct or not. 

Mr. Matthews. In a letter from Miss Helen Vance to her sister, she 
states that she met Mr. Wagenknecht in company with you. 

Mr. Jacobs. No doubt she did, then. 

Mr. Matthews. Now that you have identified Mr. Wagenknecht as 
at least the functionary of the Communist Party whom you have met. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5549 

does that refresh your recollection as to the topics of conversation 
with him? 

Mr. Jacobs. I am afraid not. I am afraid I do not remember what 
the conversal ion was. 

Mr. Matthews. These letters between Miss Helen Vance and her 
sister, Peggy, in San Antonio, are a combination of very, very per- 
sonal matters, and also of frequent references to the Communist 
Partv. In fact, there are scores of references to the Communist 
Party. That serins to be the major interest of these two young ladies 
in their relationship to each other. I think it would be entirely inad- 
visable to put these letters in the record in view of their extremely 
persona] nature, and their very, very frequent references to Mr. 
Jacobs. But I would like to ask Mr. Jacobs again if these letters 
do not refresh his recollection as to the very active connections of 
Miss Helen Vance and Miss Peggy Vance with the Communist Party. 

Mr. Jacobs. To answer briefly, Mr. Chairman, I would say they do 
not. I might add — and I think it is only fair I should be able to add — 
that I knew both of these young ladies for a relatively short period of 
time ; one of them in San Antonio and one of them in New York. That 
I met them in the course of my work for the American Newspaper 
Guild ; rather, I met Miss Peggy Vance in the course of my work. I 
maintained a personal correspondence with her for some time and, as 
a result of that correspondence, met her sister in New 7 York. I dare 
say the only times I ever saw Miss Helen Vance were probably limited 
to a half a dozen. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you see Miss Peggy Vance more frequently 
than that ? 

Mr. Jacobs. When I was in San Antonio ; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. How 7 long were you in San Antonio ? 

Mr. Jacobs. I think it must have been for a period of approximately 
a month. 

Mr. Matthews. What was your mission in San Antonio? 

Mr. Jacobs. I went there as an organizer of the American News- 
paper Guild to negotiate a contract with the San Antonio Light, and 
the local branch of the American Newspaper Guild. 

Mr. Matthews. Who was the head of the American Newspaper 
Guild union or local in San Antonio? 

Mr. Jacobs. At that time it was a person called Mr. Howard 
LeBaron. 

Mr. Matthews. Did Miss Peggy Vance join that union? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes. She was a member of the staff of the San Antonio 
newspaper, and as such Mas a member of the Newspaper Guild. 

Mr. Matthews. Was she the organizer of the union? 

Mr. Jacobs. No; not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. Did she have any position in the union? 

Mr. .Jacobs. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. Other than a rank and file member? 

Mr. Jacobs. Not to my knowledge; she did not. 

Mi-. Matthews. In organizing the American Newspaper Guild in 
San Antonio, how many members of the union did you have personal 
contacts with? 

Mr. Jacobs. Mr. Chairman, I would like to mention again that I 
did not organize the newspaper union in San Antonio. I went there 
to negotiate a contract. 



5550 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Between the two ? 

Mr. Jacobs. Between the two. 

Mr. Matthews. Did yon negotiate a contract? 

Mr. Jacobs. I started negotiations. The contract was not signed 
while I was there. It was later signed. 

Mr. Matthews. In the course of your presence in San Antonio for 
the purpose of negotiating a contract, how many members of the 
union did you meet? 

Mr. Jacobs. I cannot give an accurate answer, but if you want an 
estimate, I can give you that. 

Mr. Matthews. All right, please. 

Mr. Jacobs. I should say I probably met as many as 10 or 11, 
12 perhaps. 

Mr. Matthews. How many of those were known to 3^011 as mem- 
bers of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Jacobs. None of them. 

Mr. Matthews. Did the subject of Communist Party membership 
ever come up in the course of your work? 

Mr. Jacobs. It might have, but I do not recall it. I might add 
that every union, almost every organization which might be called 
liberal, has at one time or another been accused of being Communist 
or of having Communist membership. And that is the reason I say 
it might have. I really do not know beyond that. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Chairman, the communications here 
leave no doubt whatsoever about the Communist Party membership 
of the various members of the American Newspaper Guild at San 
Antonio. They are not letters to or from Mr. Jacobs personally, but 
the letters discuss in great detail whether or not the Communist 
Party membership list has been obtained by the authorities; whether 
or not Miss Vance and her friends should be alarmed over the dis- 
closure of their names as members of the Communist Party. These 
things were discussed in great detail in these letters, so that abso- 
lutely no doubt is left about their own membership in the Commu- 
nist Party. 

Mr. Jacobs. Mr. Chairman, may I ask, is this supposed to be cor- 
respondence either to or from me — this correspondence to which 
you have just referred? 

Mr. Matthews. This is correspondence to and from a young lady, 
Miss Peggy Vance, with whom your own letter indicates you had 
extremely close connections. 

Mr. Jacobs. But it is not my correspondence you are referring 
to at the moment? 

The Chairman. Part of it is your correspondence, I understand. 

Mr. Jacobs. What I would like to know, Mr. Chairman, if it is 
within my rights — you can correct me if it is not — is whether or not 
this gentleman is implying or asking whether I knew of the member- 
ship in the Communist Party of the San Antonio Newspaper Guild. 
Now I have testified I did not, and I testified honestly that I did not. 
Now, if he is saying I wrote it in a letter, I want to know whether 
he is saying that. 

The Chairman. No; he is asking you if you knew of the Com- 
munists who were in the guild in San Antonio. You say you don't 
know ? 

Mr. Jacobs. Correct. 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5551 

The Chairman. That you met with none of the Communist leaders 
while you were down there, except the director of the Missouri Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Jacobs. Mr. Chairman, there seems to be some confusion. I am 
quite sure 1 did not meet the director of the Missouri Communist 
Party at any time in San Antonio. If I met him anywhere 

The Chairman. But you said you met him? 

Mr. Jacobs. I said in New York. 

The Chairman. But you are sure you do remember meeting him? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes; but not in San Antonio. I understood you to 
believe just now that I met him in San Antonio. 

The Chairman. No; but you met him somewhere? 

Mr. Jacobs. Somewhere; yes. 

The Chairman. Now. do you know whether or not you met any of 
the Communist leaders in San Antonio while you were there? 

Mr. Jacobs. Xo ; I don't recall meeting any. 

The Chairman. And you did not? 

Mr. Jacobs. I may have. I met dozens of people, in connection 
with the entire campaign, from labor unions. 

The Chairman. But you did not attend any Communist meetings 
while you were there? 

Mr. Jacobs. Xo ; I did not. 

The Chairman. Is that right? 

Mr. Jacobs. That is correct. 

Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairman, the witness is very definite and clear 
that he did not meet Mr. Wagonknecht at San Antonio, but he is 
strangely lacking in clearness and definiteness as to where he did meet 
him. under what conditions he met him, and what conversation he 
had with him. Those two things do not coincide. You cannot be clear 
on one thing and definite, and so obscure on the other thing, in connec- 
tion with the same person. 

The Chairman. That is true ; but the witness very frankly admitted 
that in his work in these various organizations he has been closely or 
relatively closely associated with the Communist Party, that he has 
conferred with party leaders and attended party meetings, but he 
says he himself is not a member. Is that correct ? 

Mr. Jacobs. That is correct. 

The Chairman. That your association with the Communist Party 
has grown out of mutual interest in certain other things? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes ; and my work. 

The Chairman. And your work? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes. 

The Chairman. But you yourself never joined the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Jacobs. That is correct. 

The Chairman. He has also frankly admitted, as I understand, 
he knew Miss Helen Vance was a member of the Young Communist 
League. 

Mr. .1 \( oi-.s. Xo: I did not say that. 

The Chairman. That site was sympathetic? 

Mr. Jacobs. I assume you want me to answer here as to what I 
,]o know and not what I think. I do not know she was a member 
of the Young Communist League: I have testified I knew she was 
interested in it. That is all I know. 



5552 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. That is as far as you know ? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes ; that is right. 

The Chairman. But, as far as Peggy Vance, you don't know? 

Mr. Jacobs. No. I knew she had an interest in all kinds of organi- 
zations and groups, including the Communist Party. 

The Chairman. Did you ever discuss the Communist Party with 
her, and the question of communism? 

Mr. Jacors. I do not recall. No doubt I did sometimes, but I do 
not recall discussing it with her. If you ask me where, when, and 
what I did discuss, I really would not be able to answer, honestly. 

The Chairman. What other organization, aside from this Span- 
ish relief campaign, or whatever it is, are you affiliated with? 

Mr. Jacobs. None at the moment. 

The Chairman. None at all? 

Mr. Jacobs. No. 

The Chairman. This is the only one you are affiliated with? 

Mr. Jacobs. That is correct. 

The Chairman. And this grew out of the previous organization 
you have testified about? 

Mr. Jacobs. I say it grew out of the committee. I was offered a 
job with them. 

The Chairman. I see — the committee? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes; that is correct. 

The Chairman. It grew out of the North American Committee 
to Aid Spanish Democracy, and so on, and so forth? 

Mr. Jacobs, That is right, 

Mr. Matthews. Now, you did say, Mr. Jacobs, that you contem- 
plated having Miss Peggy Vance come to New York to obtain a posi- 
tion. What was the position you had in mind ? 

Mr. Jacobs. I thought she might be a secretary in the office. 

Mr. Matthews. In which office? 

Mr. Jacobs. In the office of the Spanish Refugee Relief Campaign, 
which was then arranging an American committee to aid Spanish 
refugees. 

Mr. Mattheavs. So that when Miss Helen Vance writes to her sister 
about this job, that is the one she refers to? I will read you what 
she says : 

Mr. J. is quite sure of being able to Siug a Song of Sixpence ; in other words, of 
getting you a job as his personal secretary at not less than twenty-two a week and 
perhaps twenty-five. No doubt he has written you already about it. However, if 
he cannot get you this one, he is quite sure of getting you one at any rate. So that 
he suggested I write you, so that if some day you get a telegram it won't be too 
much of a shock to your plans and system and friendships, and Emma. 

This was the job you talked over with Miss Helen Vance for her 
sister ? 

Mr. Jacobs. There is no doubt at one time I felt she could obtain a 
job as my secretary. I needed a secretary at that time, and I knew she 
was a capable girl. 

The Chairman. Who is Emma ? 

Mr. Jacobs. I have not the slightest idea who she is. 

Mr. Matthews. You have been in San Antonio and you must know 
something about the labor leaders in San Antonio, inasmuch as you 
were down there to negotiate a contract. 

Mr. Jacobs. I did meet some of them there. 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5553 

Mr. Matthews. Don't you know who Emma was? 

Mr. Jacobs. No; I don't recall. 

Mr. Matthews. Did Miss Peggy Vance ever speak to you of her very 
close friendship with a certain Emma t 

Mr, Jacobs. She might have; I don't recall. 

Mr Matthews. Would it refresh your recollection if I tell you the 
name was Emma Tenayuca? 

Mr. Jacobs. I believe it does refresh my recollection to this extent, 
that Emma Tenayuca, as I recall, had something to do with this 
pecan workers' strike. In what official capacity, I do not know. 

Mr. Matthews. You know Emma is one of the most active leaders 
in the Communist Party of the State of Texas, don't you? 

Mr. Jacobs. I am afraid if I should not know it, I am very dumb, 
because I do not know it. 

Mr. Matthews. Did not you know she was the wife of Homer 
Brooks, secretary of the Communist Party of the State of Texas? 

Mr. Jacobs. I knew she was married, and I think at one time I 
met him, but I am not positive about this. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you meet Emma. Tenayuca while you were 
in San Antonio? 

Mr. Jacobs. I probably did. I do not recall the circumstances. 
As I said, I have met at least a dozen or so persons in all ranks 
of life. 

Mr. Matthews. And you learned at the time you met Emma Tena- 
yuca that she was a very close friend of Peggy Vance — so much so, 
if you asked Peggy Vance to go to New York as your personal sec- 
retary it might disrupt the friendship between Peggy Vance and 
Emma Tenayuca. 

Mr. Jacobs. Mr. Chairman, I think, without being naive about 
this, that the gentleman who is cross-examining me, I do not know 
his name, I am sorry to say, is implying I wrote this letter in which 
reference is made to Emma. 

The Chairman*. No; he is just asking you if the statement in the 
letter is correct or not. That is the substance of his question. 

Mr. Jacobs. How t would I know; I did not write the letter. 

The Chairman. You know, for instance, if you know Emma? 

Mr. Jacobs. I said I did not recall Emma; then he said Emma 
Tenayuca, and I said I had heard of her in connection with the 
pecan workers' strike. Then he asked if I met her, and I said I 
doubtless had, because I had met dozens of leaders; but I have not 
the slightest idea whether or not she was in any position to exercise 
any influence on Miss Vance. 

Mr. Matthews. "Was it Miss Vance who introduced you to Emma 
Tenayuca ? 

Mr. Jacobs. That I don't recall. 

Mi. Matthews. The only point I was trying to bring out is that 
this letter was written at your suggestion. 

Mr. Jacobs. Which letter? 

Mr. Matthews. The one from which I have just read. The author 
of the letter. Helen Vance, says that you suggested that she write her 
sister Peggy and in the same sentence she says Peggy Vance may 
expect any day to get a telegram from you and she hopes it will not 
be too much of a shock to Emma, whom we have identified. 



5554 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Jacobs. She hopes, but I am not responsible for what she says. 
I really do not understand and perhaps I am rather stupid about this, 
Mr. Chairman — what Miss Vance has got to do with the line of this 
questioning. 

The Chairman. Let me ask you — you do not like that line; let me 
read this paragraph to you: 

Last night Helen and I went to the Party Builders' Conference at Madison 
Square Garden. It was pretty good, hut not as good as I had hoped. Browder 
was sick and unable to attend. No doubt you read about it in the Daily Worker. 

Why were you hoping this meeting of the Communist Party would 
be a much better meeting? 

Mr. Jacobs. Mr. Chairman, I have already testified. I do not recall 
what meeting that is at the present moment My guess at this time 
was it was in connection with the work I had just undertaken. 

The Chairman. What work? 

Mr. Jacobs. For the Spanish Refugees, and what was then the 
North American Committee. 

The Chairman. What could that have to do witli the Communist 
Party meeting being a success in Madison Square Garden I 

Mr. Jacobs. It would have a great deal to do with it from my 
point of view. If the Communist Party told 22,000 people, or what- 
ever the number present was, that the Spanish issue should be sup- 
ported regardless of politics, obviously it would have some effect on 
the work of the Spanish campaign. 

The Chairman. In other words, you were anxious to secure the 
active support of the Communist Party; is that correct? 

Mr. Jacobs. I don't recall. If that letter indicates that 

The Chairman. Well, that indicates, does it not, that was the 
reason you were in New York at that time? 

Mr. Jacobs. I say that would be my guess at this time, Mr. Chair- 
man. 

The Chairman. I see. 

Mr. Matthews. Further on in this letter in which Miss Vance says 
you suggested that she write her sister in San Antonio relative to 
coming to New York, Miss Helen Vance writes : 

The big problem is not New York, or getting here, as I see it. but the ques- 
tion of getting out of San Antonio. If you think it worth while to come up 
here, well, then, go to work on arrangements, possibly working in someone to 
take your place in the guild work. 

Now, does that mean just the general rank and file of guild work 
in Texas and San Antonio? 

Mr. Jacobs. I don't know, Mr. Chairman, what was meant at that 
time. I left Texas in the fall of 19—1 think— 37. Before the con- 
tract for which I had been negotiating was signed, there were changes 
in the local guild situation. Subsequently Miss Peggy Vance may 
have taken a more prominent part than she was taking at the time 
I was there : she may have held some position. I really do not know. 
I suggest that the League of the American Newspaper Guild could 
tell you that. 

Mr. Matthews (reading further) : 

< ould you leave and be assured of the guild's following the right policy — 

And so forth. Now, you know that a Communist Party member 
working in trade-unions has very definite and explicit instructions 
to carry out a certain policy? 



I X AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5555 

Mr. Jacobs. I have hoard such. 

Mr. Matthews. That is undoubtedly what this refers to, is it not? 

Mr. Jacobs. Mr. Chairman, as I understand it, I am — and I hope 
you do not think me evasive — I am trying very honestly to give you 
such information as 1 can. 

The Chairman. You do not know what that means? 

Mr. Jacobs. I do not know what it means; and, what is more, I 
think it is quite clear I could not know what it means. 

Mr. Matthews. I will read the next sentence, then: 

You see, Jacobs wants you up here so bad that when I mentioned such to 
hi in — 

thai is whether or not the guild does have a definite policy to be car- 
ried out — 

be laughed in my face. 

Now. what were you laughing at? Did you laugh at what Miss 
Helen Vance thinks about the importance of having Miss Peggy 
Vance to carry out the right policies of the American Newspaper 
Guild, whose contract you went to San Antonio to negotiate? 

The Chairman. The point is, do you know what that is referring 
to? 

Mr. Jacobs. No; I don't. 

The Chairman. That is somebody else's statement? 
. Mr. Jacobs. I have no idea what it means. 

The Chairman. The question he is asking you is if you know 
what that is referring to. 

Mr. Jacobs. No; I don't. 

The Chairman. What does this section refer to that I see right 
here in your letter, 

Heard Homer was here for last night. 

What Homer did that refer to ? 

Mr. Jacobs. It might refer to Homer Brooks, as this gentleman 
mentioned. 
The Chairman (reading) : 

Heard Homer was at last night's meeting, but neither Helen nor I saw him. 
Too bad Helen did not know in time. She was disappointed. 

That would refer to Homer Brooks? 

Mr. Jacobs. It might ; I cannot be sure. 

Mr. Matthews. You know Homer Brooks, don't you? 

Mr. Jacobs. I think I met him in San Antonio; yes. I think per- 
haps I have seen him once in my life, if that is of any interest. 

Mr. Matthews. Did not you know he was State Secretary of the 
Communist Party of Texas when you met him? 

Mr. Jacobs. I think I did; again I cannot remember having 
met him. He may have had other connections, in some position. 

The Chairman. What did you mean by your campaign would 
include a tour of a Spanish delegation and raising at least half a 
million bucks? AVhat do you mean by "Spanish delegation"? 

Mr. Jacobs. At that time, obviously there must have been coming 
to this country, or planned to come to this country, some Spaniards 
to go on a lecture tour. Several such groups have come, and I do 
not remember which one was referred to there. 



5556 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Would make a tour of the Spanish — what you 
meant was you had to go to see the Spanish delegation with reference 
to the raising of this money? 

Mr. Jacobs. No; that is not saying here — not what you think. I 
meant, in my capacity as campaign director, I had to arrange for 
tours, among other things, which would raise money for refugee 
relief in Spain. 

The Chairman. No; you say you are trying to arrange for a new 
plan for a 3-month national campaign that will include a tour of 
the Spanish delegation, 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes. 

The Chairman. That meant that you were going to arrange to 
have this Spanish delegation tour the United States? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes. 

The Chairman. In behalf of raising this half million dollars; is 
that correct? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes; that is correct. 

The Chairman. Who is "Victor" mentioned by you in the letter? 

Mr. Jacobs. Victor was a personal friend of Miss Vance. 

The Chairman. You do not know his last name? 

Mr. Jacobs. I don't know his last name; no. I may have known 
it at one time, but I do not recall it now. 

The Chairman. It says here [reading] : 

I hope you and Victor will make a go of things. 

You do not remember who you were talking about when you said 
"Victor"? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes: a personal friend of Miss Vance, of whom she 
was very fond. I hoped they would be successful and quite happy 
together. I think that is quite clear from the letter. 

The Chairman. You do not recall his last name? 

Mr. Jacobs. Not now; no, sir. I don't think I ever met him. 

The Chairman. You mentioned his name several times. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, the remainder of this correspon- 
dence also very frequently mentions "Vic" and mentions "Vic" as 
being very much involved in matters of interest to Mr. Jacobs. 

Mr. Jacobs. Personal matters, would you say? 

Mr. Matthews. I do not know what they are. 

The Chairman. He says he doesn't know what matters they are. 
He says here [reading] : 

I was surprised, though, to learn Victor had something to do with it. 

Mr. Jacobs. I can assure you, Mr. Chairman, they were purely per- 
sonal matters. 

The Chairman. Personal matters ? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, you would know his last name, would you not, 
if they were personal matters ? 

Mr. Jacobs. Mr. Chairman, I do not know his last name. I prob- 
ably knew his last name at the time, but I have forgotten a thousand 
names, as you or anybody else has. 

The Chairman. Surely. Is there anything further? 

Mr. Matthews. No. 

The Chairman. Stand aside ; you are excused. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5557 

TESTIMONY OF ERNEST BAUMANN (Resumed) 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Baumann, you have outlined the manner 
in which you received the list of names of the so-called rank-and-file 
workers of the Steel Workers' Organizing Committee and how you 
discovered that those names were almost all phony, with phony ad- 
dresses. Will you please detail for the committee the various tactics 
of the Communist Party organizers in trade-union work which came 
to your first-hand knowledge in your associations with the trade-union 
movement in Buffalo? 

Mr. Baumann. Well, they have numerous sorts of technique. One 
of them is the strike technique that they use — is to get into a union. 
Jf they have a union, say, of 3 or 4 hundred members, there is 
very seldom, in a union of that many members, that more than 50 
or GO, or maybe 75, will attend a meeting. They will have 3 or 4 
members, either members or fellow travelers, that is, undercover 
workers, in this meeting who are members, and these people make 
motions to a certain extent. If the leadership of the union is against 
the Communists, and they want him out, they will oppose the actions 
of the union leaders in every way possible. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you give some illustrations of the tactics? 

Mr. Jacobs. Yes. I have some in my letters here that were written 
by a Communist by the name of Wilds. I made him admit that he 
had written these letters sometime later. 

The Chairman. How in the world did you ever get him to admit it? 
You are better than this committee, because we cannot get them to 
admit it. 

Mr. Jacobs. Well, I met a fellow in his house who matched up the 
typewriter lie had in his house, an old typewriter. I will show you 
t his, and you can easily see how. I did investigation work at one time 
myself for the unions; that is, in order to prevent the employers from 
putting stuff over on the unions 

Mr. Mattheavs. How do you spell this man's name ? 

Mr. Baumann. W-i-1-d-s. That is the name he goes by. I don't 
know whether it is his right name. Very few of them use their own 
names. 

Mr. Matthews. Describe the tactics which he employed. 

Mr. Jacobs. Well. I don't care about giving the name of the officer 
of this lodge, because he is a very reputable man whom they tried to 
villify. He is an American Legion leader, a World War veteran, and 
a man who is very reputable. He really is responsible for organizing 
the union of this Worthington Pump organization. 

Mr. Mason. Well, I do not think that is essential, is it? 

Mr. Baumann. Xo; but it is in the letter here, anyway. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Baumann. And this man opposed Wilds' tactics within the 
union. He was always disrupting; that is, every motion, for instance, 
if it was only a bill to be paid, why. Wilds and his group would take 
exception to it and did not want to pay it. They claimed the finan- 
cial secretary was crooked, and so on, and so forth. As a result of 
that, sometime later, or rather in the big lay-off at the company plant, 
Wilds was laid off according to the regular seniority. Wilds came to 
me while I was acting director and told me his story, and I imme- 



5558 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

diately called in the chief steward, whom I speak of here, of the 
union — called him into my office and questioned him to find out if 
Wilds was really laid off according to the union contract ; that is, on 
the ground of seniority. He not only told me he was, but he showed 
me the company's books. We had access to the company's files; I 
mean that was the close relation we had with them. I mean they 
trusted the union, so they gave us access to their employment files, so 
that we could check it. We found out that Wilds was laid off accord- 
ing to the contract, in spite of the fact of Wilds' claim that Stevenson 
was a stool pigeon working for the company. There was no reason 
for him being a stool pigeon there, because the company cooperated 
in every manner, and he was permitted to collect dues on their own 
property, which was against the contract, but they allowed us to do 
it, because they figured by cooperation with the union they could get 
the men to work better, and all. In spite of that fact, he did every- 
thing to get Stevenson and a friend, who was financial secretary, out 
of the office — writing those anonymous letters which we tracked down 
and found to be absolutely untrue, and things of that sort, and finally 
did succeed in getting one of the other officers out, because they claimed 
he was stealing funds of the union — which, of course, he was not. I 
mean that is just one little instance. 

Another instance they used, and I understand they used against me 
personally, is villifying the personal character of a person, even to a 
man's domestic affairs. They have even gone in and tried to disrupt 
my own domestic affairs, because of the fact that they knew I was 
against them, and the only reason I was against them was the fact I 
knew they were trying to break up these unions. It was a case of either 
rule or ruin. And I have always maintained and always sympathized 
with and did everything I possibly could for the advancement of trade- 
unions, and I still will do so as long as I live, but one thing I realize 
is that this disruptive stuff must be eliminated in our organized unions. 

For instance, to go back to the days of the aircraft unions, in there 
they had their people who, in a party meeting that I organized and 
knew, as a matter of fact, one of their members was on it, and they said 
unless the Curtiss Airplane gives up, we are going to blow up the 
powerhouse by such and such a day. Now, that was nothing but dis- 
ruptive. I mean to say you had people — this speech was given in the 
Y. M. C. A., and a man that wall do a thing like that is either just 
trying to disrupt the union or he is an agent of the company — to sug- 
gest such an idiotic thing as blowing up the powerhouse in a trade- 
union strike, which would probably have the adverse effect on the 
public from what is really intended it might be. And I was not 
financially interested at all; I was in business at the time. 

I mean those are some tactics they use. They will do everything 
they possibly can to pack a meeting. For instance, they had com- 
plete control of the Buffalo C. I. O. council, the president they elected, 
and everything else. 

The Chairman. What council? 

Mr. Baumann. The C. I. O. council at Buffalo. 

The Chairman. The labor council ? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. Like the Federation of Labor has their coun- 
cil, the C. I. O. has their council. 



ON-AMERICAN PKOI'AGAXItA ACTIVITIES 5559 

The Chairman. You mean they completely controlled the council? 

Mr. Baumann. They did at that time, yes. And :i few of the lead- 
ing in it knew it, but at that time they completely controlled it from 
the {(resident down. 

The Chairman. Let us go on and get the main things. 

Mr. Matthews. Let me ask you, Mr. Baumann, about some of the 
constituent unions of the C. I. O. council in Buffalo. 

Is the Office and Professional Workers' Union affiliated with the 
C. 1. O. council at Buffalo? 

Air. Baumann. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know, from firsthand experience, whether 
or not the Communist Party controls that union? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes; they do. There are practically no members 
except Communists; that is. it is sort of a pseudo union, with the ex- 
ception of the youngest workers — they have a branch, but they are 
influenced by the Communists, or influenced by the salesmen that be- 
long to it. Xow the rank and tile, you understand, of these unions 
are not Communists, but the leaders working in witli the novices in 
the trade-union movement, with green people, are able to sway them 
one way or another, and the people don't know it — they don't know 
what it is all about. I mean if they come in and want to pass a resolu- 
tion to give so much money to Spanish democracy, or the League 
Against War and Fascism, or the Workers' Alliance, the people in 
there don't know enough about it to refuse to go with them; but their 
organizer, that is. the man who works out of the national office, is a 
Communist. 

Air. Matthews. Who is he? 

Air. Baumann. Herman Clott. 

Mr. Matthews. How do you spell his last name ? 

Mr. Baumann. C-1-o-t-t. 

Mr. Matihews. Is the American Newspaper Guild one that is 
affiliated with the C. I. O. council? 

Mr. Baumann. lies, sir; that is a very small unit. 

Mr. Matthew t s. What is the political' situation in that unit ? 

Mr. Baumann. There are two of them in there that practically or- 
ganized it in here, one of whom was in from the inception, but both 
of them are Communists. There are two newspapers in Buffalo at the 
present time, or two dailies. The others are small weekly advertising 
papers. The Times, which was a Scripps-Howard paper, went out of 
business 3 or 4 months ago ; and they were strongest in the Times. 

Mr. Matthews. Who were strongest? 

Air. Baumann. The guild. Subsequently the Communist Party — 
both of those organizers are both in the guild, are in that work as 
organizers for the C. I. O. That is since they have been discharged 
from the Times, or since the Times went out of business. 

Mr. Matihews. Is the Coal Workers' Union affiliated with the 
C. I. O. council? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. sir. 

.Mi'. MviiiiiAvs. What is the political connection of that organiza- 
tion \ 

Mr. Baumann. Their leaning. I think, is perfectly Communist. 
Their organizer was a Communist worker for the party in the steel 

9 1931 — SO— vol. 9^— :>0 



5560 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

union in Rochester. In 1937 they had to discharge him because of his 
Communist activities. He was passing the Daily Worker out when 
strikes were on. 

Mr. Matthews. What was his name ? 

Mr. Baumann. Leo Lewis. I do not know whether that is his right 
name or not, nor do I know his nationality. 

Mr. Matthews. What about the Leather Workers' Union? Are 
they affiliated with the C. I. O. council ? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir; they have the same organizer. 

Mr. Matthews. Lewis? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. The union is controlled by the Communist Party? 

Mr. Baumann. It is controlled by the Communist Party, although 
the rank and file are not Communists. They do not know communism 
from rheumatism. 

Mr. Matthews. What about the Optical Workers Union? 

Mr. Baumann. The organizer in Buffalo is a Communist. 
Whether, or not, the members are, I do not know. I do not think 
that probably they have more than 25. I think they claim 500, but 
I know for a fact that when I attended one of their meetings they 
had only 17 people present. The organizer is a Communist, 

Mr. Matthews. Who is he ? 

Mr. Baumann. His name is Regovin. I think his first name is 
Morris. 

Mr. Matthews. Are the Quarry Union Workers affiliated with the 
C. I. O. council? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Does that organization have a Communist organ- 
izer ? 

Mr. Baumann. No, sir: the organizer is not a Communist. It is 
quite a small local in the Oakland area, in the gypsum industry. 
They had one man planted in there for that one purpose. I do not 
recall his name. It is some Croatian or foreign name. 

Mr. Matthews. There is a union of the automobile workers in 
Buffalo? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that affiliated with the C. I. O. organization? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. How are they lined up politically ? 

Mr. Baumann. I do not think the automobile workers are lined 
up any way politically. There are a few Communists who have been 
trying to get control, but what members they have left, I do not 
think have any political leanings to any extent. They are nonde- 
script. Of course, everything is somewhat disrupted because of the 
fight in the body. They do not know where they stand. The organ- 
izer is not a Communist, 

Mr. Matthews. The Steel Workers' Organizing Committee is as- 
sociated with the C. I. O. council, is it not? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What are its political affiliations ? 

Mr. Baumann. The man in control is not a Communist, I do not 
know his political affiliations. In the Buffalo branch — there are two 
different branches. They have been trying to organize in Buffalo, 
and there are three organizers that are Communists, but they were not 
hired by the man in charge of the Buffalo area. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5561 

The Chairman. They were sent by the national office? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir. A man by the name E. J. Lever was charged 
with organizing the Buffalo area. 

Mr. Matthews. Do yon know Lever personally? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know him to be a Communist Party 
member? 

Mr. Baumann. 1 do not know him to be a Communist Party mem- 
ber but would tag him as a Fellow Traveler. Nobody is very good at 
(hat. I judge people by the company they keep, and when I was at 
a workers' convention in 1937 the faithful were always around Lever. 
At that lime there was one Communist organizer, Doyle. I think 
he was the only one on the staff at the time who was a Communist. 
because Paine and I had weeded them out. He was kept there simply 
because of financial reasons. His family was in bad condition, and 
the local priest asked us to keep him in because of the fact that he 
knew the family, for humane reasons. They all stayed at the Penn 
Hotel, so that they could have meetings at any time they wanted to, 
but after the Communist, Leo Lewis, was out in 1937. they immediately 
checked out of the Penn Hotel and went to another hotel, where they 
held caucus meetings. Paine told me to go over and find out who was in 
the caucus meetings. I found, by walking into the meeting, a crowd 
of different Communists from different cities. They were all in this 
one caucus meeting. They were all together there. I looked at the 
people, turned around, slammed the door, and walked out. 

Mr. Matthews Is E. J. Lever the man who organized the coopera- 
tive distributors several years ago? 

Mr. B aumanx. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Are there any other unions at Buffalo affiliated 
with the C. I. O. council that are known to you to be Communist 
controlled. 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir; the Maritime Union. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that the National Maritime Union? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir. The Maritime Union is headed b}~ a man 
named William Morrison. Most of the Communist members of the 
union live in lodging houses in Buffalo. I will tell you how that is. 
I think I have an advertisement of the program of a meeting that was 
held for the unemployed at Shea's Theater in the fall of 1938. The 
Communists marched into the theater canning red flags. It was the 
Workers Alliance. I would say that they were 50 percent of the 
audience. 

The Chairman. "What other information do you have on that line? 

Mr. Baumann. There are the Transport Workers. They were con- 
trolled by Communists, and the secretary was a C. I. O. regional di- 
rector. She is the spearhead which coordinates the activities of the 
Communists in all the unions. 

The Chairman. Do you mean a regional director of the C. I. O.? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In the city of Buffalo? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What is the name of the secretary? 

Mr. Baumann. Lillian Brill, from Washington. 

The Chairman*. From this city '. 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir. She was sent from here to be the secre- 
tary. She was working for communism in the unions. 



5562 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. She consolidates the Communists in that area in the 
trade-unions ? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir; not only in the labor unions but in the 
political organizations. For instance, when I was director of the 
labor party she turned the mailing list of the labor party over to the 
Communist Party. 

Mr. Matthews. What else do you have there as to any other union 
in or about that section being controlled by the Communist Party? 

The Chairman. I understand from your testimony that the way in 
which they obtain control is for Communists to gain strategic positions 
in the unions locally, as officials, secretaries, and so forth ? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. While the majority of the rank and file are not 
Communists, and do not know what they are about ? 

Mr. Baumann. No, sir ; they would fight it if they knew it. 

The Chairman. And you think that the Communist leaders will not 
divulge the fact that they are Communists unless they have to ? 

Mr. Baumann. No, sir. I can give you instances to show that the 
rank and file are against it. In June — I will go back further than 
that, to the spring of 1938, when the C. I. O. councel was controlled 
by the Communist members, through Lillian Brill being secretary of 
the C. I. O. council and also of the C. I. O. Paine, who was the 
director of the steel workers, and myself, who was his assistant and 
director of the Amalgamated Clothiers Workers, which was very 
definitely aganst the Communists, called a meeting and decided that 
we would purge the council of the Communist element. So Ave looked 
over the records and found out about it. We had a meeting where a 
Communist president, secretary, committees, organizers, were elected. 
Only Communists were elected at the meeting, in which a great num- 
ber of those present did not have credentials. I discovered that, and 
through that technicality I had the meeting declared illegal, and they 
were put out of office. Since the meeting was public, for the election 
of officers, we showed them what the tactics of these Communists were. 
We let them know who these people were. The result showed that the 
rank and fife were not Communists. We decided to put up an entirely 
new slate, with no Communists, and at all those meetings, I led the 
fight against the Communists. 

Mr. Mason. Is it not true that, after showing the rank and file that 
those who were in power were Communists, they were glad to get 
rid of them ? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir; that is right. That is what I have always 
been desirous of doing. When we defeat them, or can cut out one 
leading Communist, they would not vote them back again. There 
were three others who stayed in. Those three said, "We will get you 
and Paine." Paine was out within a month. He was removed, and 
in order to remove him, they changed the Buffalo Council, or the 
Buffalo district of the Steel Workers under its direction. It was 
headed by Van A. Bittner, of the Chicago region, who was a friend 
of Paine as director in Buffalo. It was changed to the Pittsburgh 
area and put under Clinton Golden. The first act Clinton Golden 
did as director was to remove Paine, and put in a man by the name 
of Albert J. Marsh, a well-known Communist. He has several 
aliases, but that is the name he goes by. He was director in Syra- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5563 

cuse. He was taken nut of Syracuse and was brought into Buffalo. 
He had at Syracuse a well-known Communist by the name of Gaten 
Haas as his secretary. She had been at one time organizer for the 
Communisl Party in Syracuse. As soon as he came to Buffalo, the 
Communists started coming into the office with the Daily Worker. 

Now, the Secretary could tell them to purchase the Daily Worker 
if they wanted to, if they would move it from the office. We had 
every kind of Communist, that did not belong to the union, coming 
to the headquarters and contacting him whenever they wanted to. 
He immediately took an antipathy against me, and was very cold 
about everything. He went to Pittsburgh and came back a few days 
afterward. The secretary showed me a letter from a Mr. Helltzman, 
whom I found out to be a Communist attorney without portfolio. 
He had offered him the job of organizer in Buffalo; in face of the 
fact that they had ordered the staff reduced because of financial 
reasons. So, as I was saying, lie went to Pittsburgh, and when 
he came back from Pittsburgh, or the day after he came back from 
Pittsburgh, I heard that he was calling up a man by the name of 
Rutenberg, who was an assistant to Golden, and also a research 
director of the Steel Workers Organizers' Committee. He called him 
up on the telephone, and when I heard that he was 'trying to get a 
long-distance call, I went to another station and listened in. He 
said, "Hello." I think I can give almost the exact words. He said, 
"Is Clint there?" The answer was, "No; he is out of town." He 
said, "Is it all right to 'phone?" The answer was, "Yes, sir." He 
said, "Well, 1 just saw Frank Herron." 

The Chairman. Who is he? 

Mr. Baumann. A district organizer for the Communist Party. 
He said, "He tells me that if we are to get anywhere we must get 
Baumann out of the way." I was the only assistant director at the 
time in the national council left who knew the situation of the steel 
workers. He went to Pittsburgh the next day after the telephone 
conversation, and when he came back from Pittsburgh he said, 
"They have had to lay off somebody, and I see it is you. Your name 
is the very last." He said, "That is all I can do about it." I said, 
"I can do something about it." So I got in touch with some of the 
leaders in the unions, and immediately they started a campaign 
against Marsh because of the fact that he was a Communist and they 
wanted him out. As a result, within a week's time, we had started 
it. I have copies of letters and telegrams sent to Pittsburgh, and 
also letters I got from Golden. About a week after that, we started 
the campaign. Then I got a letter from Pittsburgh saying that it 
was all a mistake, and that I was not off the pay roll ; that I was on 
the pay roll right along, and would not lose any pay. They said it 
was a bookkeeping error. Now, the fact of the matter was that the 
Communists were out to get me, and they did <ret director Paine, 
after i25 years with the United Mine Workers. He was a man who 
had given his entire life to the labor movement. He was taken out 
and sent back to the W. P. A. as an organizer. I was out in 3 months, 
or less than that, but I came back because of the fact that the men 
put up a fight for me. I came back later on through my influence 
with the workers. 1 have the signatures of leaders in the different 
unions who petitioned him to put me back on the pay roll. Mr. 



5564 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Valle was one of them. He was anti-Communist, and knew the 
people in the trade-unions. Valle came in and consulted with me. 
That was after I had gone and left the business, and they had taken 
over the reins. He got in touch with me, and I went to a hotel room 
and told him the whole story. As a result of that, Marsh was re- 
moved from office and sent to the Pittsburgh area as an organizer. 
That shows that the rank and file of the labor unions are really 
against the Communists if properly led in the fight against them. 

The Chairman. What help did you get from the national office of 
the C. I. O. ? That is what I cannot understand — why it was that 
they wanted organizers and officials of this kind to do that sort of work 
in behalf of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Mason. Would it not be correct to say that it was only through 
the efforts of the rank and file of the local unions that he was taken 
back? 

Mr. Batjmann. Yes, sir. It is either one of two things: We have 
Harry Rutenberg, who is assistant regional director in the northeastern 
area and who is also research director, and Lee Pressman. Those two y 
at least, are Communists. 

The Chairman. Lee Pressman is general counsel for the C. I. O., is 
he not? 

Mr. Batjmann. Yes, sir; Lee Pressman is the general counsel, and 
Rutenberg is assistant regional director. I have a letter here from 
Clinton Golden where he refers to the matter of putting a lot of people 
out and putting them in again, saying that we have to tolerate these 
elements in the unions. 

The Chairman. Read the letter and let us see what he says about 
that. 

Mr. Batjmann. This letter is from Pittsburgh, dated June 21, 1938, 
and addressed to me by Clinton S. Golden, director of the northeastern 
region. The letter reads as follows : 

Dear Sib and Brother : This will .acknowledge receipt of yours of Jane 20 
together with copy of letter sent to the officers of several lodges in the Buffalo 
territory in response to a telegram sent to this office. 

I appreciate the position you have taken. I want to point out, however, that 
we have done everything humanly possible to prevent factionalism of any kind 
arising in our organization. We are conscious of the fact that we have a great 
number of people harboring a variety of opinions on political, economic, religious, 
and racial matters. 

It is evident that we cannot have a union consisting only of people entertaining 
one point of view with respect to these matters. 

I had never inferred that they should. 
The letter continues: 

We have got to find the common ground on which the greatest possible number 
of people can meet and work together regardless of their personal viewpoint with 
respect to these matters particularly. We hope that it will be possible in Buffalo 
to find such a common meeting ground so that we may put forth our best joint 
efforts for bringing the greatest good to the greatest possible number of people. 

The Chairman. What did he have in mind there ? 
Mr. Batjmann. That is the only thing I had complained about. 
The Chairman. You had not raised any racial issue? 
Mr. Batjmann. No, sir. 

The Chairman. That letter was written in response to your 
protest ? 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5565 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir; that was written after I had been taken 
back. 

The Chairman. From your contacts and experience, are you in a 
position to say that the C. I. O. leadership encouraged the Commu- 
nist infiltration and control of the unions? 

Mr. Baumann. I do not think they encouraged it. I think they 
tolerated it. 

The Chairman. Do you think they ever made any effort to get rid 
of it? 

Mr. Baumann. No, sir. 

Mr. Mason. I think that in the case of Marsh it was more than 
tolerating it. It was encouraging them to put out a good man and 
to put in a Communist. 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mason. That was more than toleration. That was encourage- 
ment. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please tell us about Gertrude Hessler? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. sir; Gertrude Hessler came out of nowhere. 
She just happened. The Steel "Workers' Council was organized some- 
time in the summer. It may have been late in the summer or fall of 
1937. I am not sure of the date, but I can find it here. 

Mr. Matthews. Never mind; go ahead. 

Mr. Baumann. Shortly after that the Office and Professional 
Workers were organized, with Lillian Brill, who was sent from 
Washington 

Mr. Matthews (interposing). You say she was sent from 
Washington? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir; I understand at the request of Brophy. 

Mr. Matthews. At the request of John Brophy ? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir. Lillian Brill came in. and they organ- 
ized the Office and Professional Workers. They sent my wife an 
invitation to come to the meeting. They knew she was interested 
in trade unions. She refused to go. She said they were Commun- 
ists, and that she did not want to have anything to do with it. I 
went, and there were 12 people present, or just enough to get a 
charter, which requires 12. All but one of them were Communists, 
and this one was a naive person whom I happen to know is in 
honest God's truth, a unionist, So Lillian Brill was elected presi- 
dent, and Gertrude Hessler was there. It was the first time I ever 
saw Gertrude Hessler. I never saw her before, which was a coinci- 
dence, because after that I saw her at every meeting. When the 
C. I. O. Council was organized shortly after that, Lillian Brill was 
elected secretary, and Gertrude Hessler was elected chairman of the 
education committee. I immediately started to investigate, and I 
understand that she had been mixed up with the automobile workers' 
union. 

Mr. Matthew. This Gertrude Hessler was the wife of William 
Weinstone, was she not? 

Mr. Baumann. That is what I have learned since then. 

Mi-. Matthews. And he is the secretary of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir; but she did not go by the name of Wein- 
stone. However, very few of them go by their right names. I 
know, or understand, that she is the sister of someone who is con- 



5566 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

nected with a Communist paper, or the Communist organ of a Com- 
munist workers' union. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that Carl Hessler? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir; I think that is the name, but I am not 
sure. 

Mr. Matthews. You say Gertrude Hessler was made chairman of 
the education committee? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What responsibilities did she have in that con- 
nection ? 

Mr. Baumann. She was to designate what books were to be 
studied in the different unions, and she spoke at different unions 
on the educational program. 

Mr. Matthews. After she took charge of the speaking program 
at Buffalo, was there not a noticeable drop-off in the number of 
non-Communist speakers, and an increase of Communist speakers? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir: they were the only ones who got a break. 
Later on. when we removed them, with Kinzie. who was president, she 
was taken out of that work and assigned to adult educational work in 
the W. P. A. She was made an educational adviser. 

Mr. Mason. In other words, she was taken on by the W. P. A. when 
she lost the union job? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir ; I understand through the recommendation 
of the C. I. O. 

The Chairman. You do not know that, but you just heard that? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir; but she is still in there. 

Mr. Mason. She is still with the W. P. A.? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes, sir. In fact, she and one other Communist 
are the only ones left since the others were laid off because of financial 
reasons or because the Budget had been cut. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you tell us something about the tactics em- 
ploved by members of the Communist Party in making their contacts? 
I think vou have some information on that from first-hand experience. 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. There are a lot of different ways they use. 
They use all kinds of socials. They have for years been holding 
dances at different places. They hold dances and invite people to 
come whom they want to interest, Usually they use certain militant 
trade-unionists, those who are known to be susceptible and gullible. 
They invite them to dances. And, they will invite anybody to come, 
but certain people are invited. I have gone to certain of them just 
to look it over. 

They are supposed to be very, very liberal affairs : no race chauvin- 
ism, anything like that. They will have white girls who dance with 
colored men, but nobody dances with colored women, and so on and 
so forth. 

And that is the tactics they use. They want to show what a won- 
derful time they will get if thev join the party, the Communist 
Party. 

Recently — I can state one occasion, where a young lady whom I 
happened to know very well, connected with the trade-union move- 
ment, was a very militant worker and was really responsible for 
organizing the hosiery workers in Buffalo. She was a very intelli- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5567 

gent Polish girl, but she didn'1 know anything about Communists, 
hut she did want to do organization work regardless of anything 
else. She is a Miss Brill; she was invited to one of these meetings 
by one Cody who was one of the party members. And, they got to 
this party and it was a party where considerable drinks were served, 
and most everybody was getting near the time where intoxication 
sets in. and particularly this girl, and then they passed around the 
applications to those who were not members. They told her at that 
time. "Don't sign your right name." 

She said, '"What is the matter; what am I joining; something that 
I am ashamed of." 

"No; but that is what they would not do." 

Mr. Matthews. Who was it told her that? 

Mr. Baumann. One of the party members who was there at that 
time, I think Kinzie. And, so she signed the paper and she did not 
know until the next morning that she was a full-fledged member 
of the Communist Party. 

And later on one of the officials, Doyle, who was the organizer of 
the steel workers in that locality, came to the house to collect dues, 
and. of course, she wouldn't join — that is, she wouldn't pay the dues. 

And then later she consulted me as to what to do and I told her to 
go ahead and stay in the party, for obvious reasons. 

She stayed in the party, and as a result of that, I found out a lot 
who were members who were in the party that I did not know were 
members before that. She is still in the party. 

But that is one of the methods that they use. 

Of course, in strikes, during strikes, they give them cards, and 
immediately on the strike start passing out propaganda on picket 
lines. 

Mr. Matthews. What about the bringing up of issues, questions 
which have no direct relationship to the strike or the trade-union? 

Mr. Baumann. Well, in the trade-union and in the C. I. O. council 
they bring up those matters; someone will bring a matter up and make 
a motion that they go on record to donate $5 or $10 or $50 for Spanish 
relief, or to the League Against War and Fascism, or for the Workers' 
Alliance. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that always the Communist Party member in the 
council ? 

Mr. Baumann. It is usually either a party member or a fellow 
traveler; they are undercover people. 

Mr. Matthews. In the C. I. O. councils you have attended meetings 
where they have introduced such motions as support of Spanish 

Mr. Baumann (interposing). Yes; or the Chinese aggression. 

Mr. Matthews. The Japanese aggression, you mean. 

Mr. Baumann. Japanese aggression of China; they will take up a 
collection. 

Mr. Matthews. How about the American League for Peace and 
Democracy ? 

Mr. Baumann. Peace and Democracy. Anti-Fascist, and so on. 

Mr. Matthews. How about the Workers' Alliance? 

Mr. Baumann. And the Workers' Alliance — they have helped them 
right along. 



5568 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

And then they have another thing, another issue they will use. They 
will bring it out in order — for two reasons, to popularize or to bring 
things up to get publicity. 

For instance, there was a case here a few years ago where a couple 
of colored fellows had assaulted a girl in Niagara Falls. They simply 
took up the cudgel to assist these colored men; spoke on street corners 
and all through the city. The Niagara police arrested some of these 
people; some of them were put in jail, but they got plenty of publicity 
through it. 

Then they will bring up questions that have no significance what- 
soever. For instance, there was the case of a man by the name of Sam 
LaCatta, who was the organizer for the Market Workers' Union, who 
was a racketeer, an outfit controlled by a racket. And that outfit used 
to tip over trucks and demand tribute from the truckers if they did not 
pay so much to LaCatta, why, they would tip over the trucks; and 
after a time LaCatta was brought to trial and convicted and sentenced 
to 2 years in prison, and his lieutenant was sentenced to 5 years because 
he had a previous conviction. 

And, the Communist Party in order to try to get into the A. F. 
of L., would send one of its members over to the A. F. of L. ; they 
would send him over there to make a collection, to bring about the 
release of LaCatta. The A. F. of L. would not fall for it, did 
not fall for it. They are older people. The A. F. of L. does not 
take to those things so easily as the C. I. O., a newer organization, 
with greener people. The A. F. of L. would not fall for it. The 
new people would fall ; they would not know what it was all about, 
but the A. F. of L. would not. 

LaCatta was a known racketeer in Buffalo. 

But that is one of the things that they bring out, use, to try to 
make some sort of a tangible connection with the workers. 

Mr. Matthews. What about the raising of facts, issues, in con- 
nection with organizations and strikes which the Communists make 
use of; do they adopt any tactics like that? 

Mr. Baumann. Oh, yes. They picket. For instance, they will 
send up their pickets to the German, the office of the German Ship- 
ping Line — all of this was before the wedding of Stalin and Hitler — ■ 
would send pickets to the German Shipping Line, or if Italian music 
was being played — music is international in character, and ought to 
be — but they would picket against Italian music, for instance, on the 
ground that it was Fascist, that they were playing music inimicable; 
music from Italy, because it was Fascist. 

It is different things like that. And, they used intimidation. I 
have been threatened by them, that they were going to blow up my 
house, and different things like that. 

The Chairman. Did you not pass a resolution overwhelmingly the 
other night to throw the Communist out? 

Mr. Baumann. We did that 3 months ago in Buffalo. 

The Chairman. I understand. 

Mr. Baumann. Yes; and that is not all we did; but we are hold- 
ing up the application. I look over the applications to know whether 
they are Communists or not. 

The Chairman. If the C. I. O. national leaders wanted to get the 
Communists out of their organization they could do so, could they? 

Mr. Baumann. Certainly. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5569 

The Chairman. "What is keeping them from doing so; they know 
who they are, do they not I 

Mr. Baumann. Surely, and if they do not know they ran find out. 

The Chairman. You have attended a good many national con- 
ventions, have yon nol '. 

Mr. Baumann. Oh, several. 

The Chairman. And you are pretty well acquainted with the 
C. I. O. members? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. 

The Chairman. And those who are Communists ? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. 

The Chairman. You are familiar with the situation with reference 
to the Communists in the C I. O., and elsewhere, other places; is it 
similar to the situation in Buffalo? 

Mr. Baumann. Well, some other places. The only places that I 
know about are Cleveland. Rochester, Syracuse, and Chicago. 

The Chairman. And the same situation prevails there with refer- 
ence to the Communist ? 

Mr. Baumann. It did at that time. I do not know — I understand 
that they are trying to get some of them out. 

The Chairman. They are now? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. 

The Chairman. It is a question of finding who they are ; you cannot 
get them to admit it, in the C I. O., but nevertheless it is my under- 
standing that they are trying to put them out. 

Mr. Baumann. That is what I understand, but I have not seen any 
tangible evidence of it in Buffalo. 

The Chairman. You have not seen any tangible evidence in 
Buffalo? 

Mr. Baumann. No. 

The Chairman. The Communist Party members have been 
increasing? 

Mr. Baumann. They have been on the up. 

The Chairman. They have been putting on more ? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes; recently I understand in the last 3 months. 

The Chairman. And that would all be with the knowledge of the 
national C. I. O. officials? 

Mr. Baumann. Well, they might not know that they are Com- 
munists, but the regional director in the Buffalo district knows, be- 
cause I told him so. but evidently he doesn't believe me. 

The Chairman. Did he tell you that if he was convinced they were 
Communists he would? 

Mr. B \imann. No. 

The Chairman. You judged from the letters you got that the policy 
is one to get rid of them on account of the fact they are Communists? 

Mr. Baumann. I think they are afraid to get rid of them. 

The Chairman. Why? 

Mr. Baumann. Because of the disruptible result. For instance, I 
know that when I testify here they are going to try to get me, but 
1 am not afraid of them. 

The Chairman. You think the Communists in the C. I. O. have 
the leadership intimidated to the point they are afraid to? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes: because the organization itself is so weak that 
it is like a house that is put up on a foundation that is not solid, and, 



5570 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

of course, if it was a foundation that was really solid, they would not 
have any difficulty about a brick falling out of it. But if the founda- 
tion is weak and' a brick begins to fall out of it, why, they have got 
to go in and do something about it, fix the mortar or something else. 

The Chairman. What about their organizers ; how did they get the 
Communist organizers in the first place in the C. I. O. ; was it because 
they did not have enough trained organizers? 

Mr. Baumann. That is it; there were not enough available people. 

The Chairman. Browder testified, I believe, that they had several 
thousand trained Communist in the union work; they had trained 
them in workers' schools. 

Mr. Baumann. They do. 

The Chairman. And for that reason the trained organizers were 
able to get into the C. I. O. in the beginning and take over these key 
positions. 

Mr. Baumann. That is true; of course. And not only that; they 
were trained by experience — experience as organizers in the trade- 
union movement — and up until the new line and with every new line 
they change their attack. 

With the new line, some 2 years ago, when they were undertaking 
to organize dual unions in order to wreck the American Federation 
of Labor, they did that because they did not believe the trade-union 
movement should succeed, because the trade-unions made it better for 
the workers, which meant putting the revolution further away. 

The Chairman. They had all of that experience in the trade-unions 
prior to the formation of the C. I. O- ? 

Mr. B \umann. That is right. As a matter of fact, Doyle was the 
leader of the 1934 strike in the Steel and Metal Workers' Union in 
Buffalo. Sobieraj was another one in the Steel and Metal Workers' 
Union. And they got plenty of experience in that in pulling that 
strike without any members, or with verw few members, experienced 
in trying to pull a strike in a big plant without members, or with just 
a few members, and they are certainly going to have some experience. 

Most of them are good organizers. 

The Chairman. And they are good speakers as well? 

Mr. Baumann. They are exceptionally good in the movement. I 
have, for instance, through my training been able to tell, when at- 
tending a meeting within 5 minutes after a motion is made, been able 
to tell who is the Communist in that meeting. I can tell who the 
Communists are. 

The Chairman. How can you tell that? 

Mr. Baumann. They are the most aggressive people. When a mo- 
tion comes on the floor they are the first ones to get up and speak on 
the subject. When a debate comes along they are the first to take 
part. When I go into a meeting if I want to find out who is a 
Communist I will usually introduce some subject, make a motion 
and I can ascertain who the Communists are bv their response to the 
subject. If you say something against the Communist Party they 
lose their composure. That is the method I have used. 

Well, if I want to find out who the Communists are that is what I 
do in most conventions. 

And when they come into a meeting they never sit together ; they 
usually sit separately. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5571 

The Chairman. They arc very much Like some of the Communists 
who come here, with their twentieth-century ideas saying they were 
very patriotic and loyal Americans. Yet every Communist, and we 
had three of them up here yesterday, says, when confronted with the 
question as to whether they would support the United States in the 
event the United States got into the war on the side of France and 
England, that they would refuse to support the United States under 
those circumstances. 

They refuse to go contrary to the Comintern in Moscow; they say 
they would refuse to go contrary to the party. 

Mr. Baumann. That is right; and that is the experience we had. 
Now of course I am not a "red" baiter. I believe everybody has a 
right to believe what they want, but when they want to come into the 
trade-union movement with a political party which is nonunion and 
use it as a basis for disrupting- a trade-union movement then I will 
take the opposite side. 

The Chairman. As the result of the control they have in Buffalo 
in the union did the membership fall off? 

Mr. Baumann. To about one-third. Whether it was from that 
reason or not I do not know, but the members did just about one-third 
in the C. I. O. 

In the American Federation of Labor it has increased; but about 
one-third of what it was in 1937 in the C. I. O. 

The Chairmvn. In other words largely due to Communist control, 
Communist infiltration ? 

Mr. Baumann. Either directly or indirectly. 

The Chairman. Directly or indirectly? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. 

The Chairman. Since they know or should know what is it that 
keeps Mr. Lewis and the national directors of the C. I. O. from getting 
rid of the Communists from key positions in the party? Is it on 
account of the fact that they know that the union would take a posi- 
tion, possibly, against the Communists who were organizers? 

Mi-. Baumann. That is a problem that I am trying to figure out as 
well as you. 

The Chairman. Is that your best judgment ? 

Mr. Baumann. Oh, yes — No; I cannot feel so sure about it. Let 
me call your attention to this instance. I do not know why they do 
not do something about it. Here is a man. recently, who was in Erie, 
Pa., which is under the jurisdiction of Buffalo, a man by the name of 
Harry A. Albins, who was, I think, the president of one of the locals 
of the Steel Workers — lodge, I think they call it — with the Erie 
Forge and Steel Workers. 

His picture was in some sort of a program, some affair that was 
being put on — I do not know what — a dance, or something, and a man 
recognized this man as a former employee of the Railway Detective 
Co. 

This man was also a member of the Communist Party. Albins. and a 
very active Communist. 

So, Paul Nuyns was the organizer of the Steel Workers in that lo- 
cality, so they sent down one of the organizers to get him out, and 
Paul said to Albins, he told him. "I understand that you were em- 
ployed in this detective agency and now I want you to resign your 
office." 



5572 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

He said "I am not any more." He was at one time, but not any 
more. 

And, he refused to resign. So, they got a committee together 
shortly after that, of the Steel Workers Lodge and sent the man over 
to Pittsburgh to see Golden to discuss the facts in the case. 

The result of that was instead of Albins resigning, why Nuyns was 
out. 

I mention that fact to show that here was a man who learned that 
Albins was an employee, and that whereas they wanted him to re- 
sign, he refused to do it and the next thing I heard Nuyns was out 
and Albins was in his place as the organizer. 

The Chairman. I do not quite get that. Was Albins working in 
this railway express agency? 

Mr. Baumann. Not in the Railway Express Agency; the Railway 
Audit Co., a detective agency. 

The Chairman. And he was a Communist ? 

Mr. Baumann. He was a Communist. 

The Chaieman. How was he able to get into the group as an anti- 
labor worker? 

Mr. Baumann. That is always considered a good thing; the Com- 
munists always try to get such a man in the labor movement; it is 
considered very smart. They feel that a Communist would not be 
expected to work for a detective agency, and if it fools the more intel- 
ligent, how about the rank and file? So, when Albins was exposed, 
instead of being repudiated and Nuyns being rewarded, Nuyns was 
discharged and Albins was put in his place. 

Now, I can't figure that out any more than anybody else can. That 
is the sort of thing will happen. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. I was going to ask about another subject. 

The Chairman. I want to know about the national directors. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. Are you acquainted, Mr. Baumann, with the 
various directors of the C. I. O. ? 

Mr. Baumann. Not so much of the C. I. O. as I am with the Steel 
Workers. 

The Chairman. Give us the Steel Workers, if you can. 

Mr. Baumann. I have here a report of the Steel Workers' Conven- 
tion, and on page 28 is shown the details; reports of the names. 
• David J. McDonald. This gives a schedule of the directors in the 
Northeast — all the area. In the Northeast area is Golden. And in 
that area I find the name of Jack Lever. 

The Chairman. Jack who? 

Mr. Baumann. Lever. 

Phil Clowes. Also M. Grecula, of McKeesport. 

And John Mayo. He was a person I do not know; not very closely 
associated with. 

And another fellow by the name of Clowes; he is a brother of some 
relation to the other fellow. 

Taffees ; Marsh — I told you about him — A. J. Marsh. 

Mr. Matthews. These men were directors ? 

Mr. Baumann. They were directors. 

Mr. Matthews. You do not mean to say that all of the men shown 
on that list are Communists ? 

Mr. Baumann. Those that I read ; I am able to say those that I read. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5573 

Mr. Matthews. About half of them are Communists? 
Mr. Baumann. I would say about half that number; yes. 
But in other areas I could not say. I know among the trade-union- 
ists are very definite anti-Communists, because I have had a lot of 
talks with them. 

I understand in the Chicago area there were 10 organizers who were 
discharged. One was Fantocchio. 

The Chairman. Well, one of the big arguments is that no Com- 
munist, until it is proven by his membership card, will admit mem- 
bership, and they destroy the lists of the members. 

.Mr. Baumann. It would not make any difference if they did not 
destroy them, because most of them do not use their right names. 
The Chairman. You know that to be a fact? 
Mr. Baumann. I certainly do. 

The Chairman. Was it not denied by Browder here that they use 
false names? The membership list from Chicago, subpenaed a few 
days ago. of the Communists, show they have used phony names. 

Mr. Baumann. I had an instance here that happened in the labor 
party where a woman, the wife of one Frank Allen, tried to get into 
the American Labor Party by using the name Kelley. and it would 
seem like no one would take an Irish name of that kind to be a Com- 
munist. But we turned down her application because I knew her. 

The Chairman. What about these front organizations? The Com- 
munists say they have front organizations. Every time the party 
changes its line these front organizations change their line. Now. 
would not that be very good evidence that these front organizations are 
under the control of the Communist Party '. 

Mr. Baumann. There is no doubt about that but it is a difficult 
tiling to bring that before the rank and file. 

The rank and file have been so trained, and rightly so, that where 
there is an expose made of such a thing why they usually dub the 
person a stool pigeon; if anybody exposes a Communist, why immedi- 
ately they cry out that he is in the pay of the employers ; that he is a 
stool pigeon; that he is a detective, and they throw out the individual 
that discloses that fact. 

Now in that way they can take the workers — take, for example, 
the Workers' Alliance, the militant ones in the Workers' Alliance. 
And the Marine Union is one and the same thing; the Marine Union 
came out of the Workers' Alliance. And the Marine Union — the 
marine people, probably all of them are potential sailors, probably 
were sailors at one time, and they sit down around the lodginghouse, 
and they claimed that the lodginghouse where most of them were 
was filthy: that the meals were inadequate: that they were abused. 

And we brought this matter before the C. I. O. Council and I got 
up and made a motion that if such were the case an investigation 
ought to be made and a committee be appointed. And a committee 
was appointed of two men and myself. One was Thompson and an- 
other was Haynes, the organizer of the Radio Workers Union. 

They met. those two. met down at the house when I could not be 
there, but Haynes and Thompson went down to the house and in- 
spected it: saw the superintendent and were invited to a meal. They 
-at down, inspected the entire place, and came back to the C. I. O. and 
made a report that the place was clean. As a matter of fact. Haynes 



5574 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

said it was as clean as his own house, and that the meals were as good 
as his wife cooked. 

Immediately the hall — these men were smeared, were called yellow, 
and they hissed him down. There were only four or five of them down 
there that night, but that illustrates how they do the thing. 

The Chairman. You are able to tell us, are you, that the Com- 
munist Party controls the Workers' Alliance ? 

Mr. Baumann. Oh, definitely ; they do not even try to deny it. 

Charles Doyle was the organizer; Charles is the district organizer 
of them and is a well-known Communist. 

Kenzie was a former steel organizer — I eliminated him; I did not 
put him down as a steel organizer before. But Lloyd Kenzie is now 
district organizer. 

They do not deny or try to hide the fact that they are, because too 
many know them. 

The Chairman. And do they pretty well control, or do they have a 
lot of people in the American League for Peace and Democracy? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. 

The Chairman. Does the Communist Party pretty well control 
that? 

Mr. Batjmann. Oh, definitely. 

The Chairman. There is no question about that ? 

Mr. Baumann. Oh, no. There are some people who are members 
who do not even know anything about the Communists, but they 
usually are people whose husbands are in business, who have money 
that they do not know what to do with and would like to be popular 
and they join something, so they join the front organization instead 
of a card club. 

The Chairman. You have been at the meetings of the American 
League for Peace and Democracy ? 

Mr. Baumann. Oh. several of them. 

The Chairmax. Are they ordinarily composed largely of Com- 
munists or non-Communists? 

Mr. Baumann. I think the bulk of them is non-Communist. 

The Chairman. How do the Communists control such organiza- 
tions ? 

Mr. Baumann. They do that because they are the progressive ones. 
Usually the others just listen, and the Communists are the speakers 
and they say usually that he is a fine type of man; he is against 
Fascism ; against Nazism ; or is in favor of Negro rights, and so forth. 

The Chairman. And what about other front organizations; do you 
know anything about other front organizations of the Communist 
Party in and around Buffalo? 

Mr. Baumann. I told you about the Spanish organizations. Of 
course, that has disappeared more or less recently. 

Mr. Matthews. That is the American-Spanish Committee? 

Mr. Baumann. Of course these have some very good people in them ; 
they have some very good labor people; and some of them are in the 
American Labor Party. 

Mr. Matthews. They are in a rather embarrassing position at this 
time. 

Mr. Baumann. I have not heard so much of them since the debacle 
a few weeks ago. 

Mr. Matthews. As a result of the Kussian-Nazi pact? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5575 

Mr. Baumanx. Yes. 

The Chairman. These front organizations art 1 in a very embarrass- 
ing position. 

Mr. Bai mann. They seem to have hibernated. 

Mr. Matthews. Did vou have people in the American Students 
Union? 

Mr. Baumann. No; we did have, but we do not have now. 

The Chairman. Was that controlled by the Communists? 
Mr. Baumann. Oh, definitely. 

Mr. Matthews. What about the International Labor Defense? 

Mr. Baumann. It is very strong; the International Labor Defense 
ami the International Workers Union and the Workers Order, that is 
eonijM)sed mostly of the Ukraine, the Czechs, the Slavs; fraternal 
organizations like this are dominated by them. Usually the organi- 
zation is not strong; they have Russians or Ukraines, and they tell 
them what they can get; usually some insurance benefits or something 
of that kind. 

Mr. Matthews. These organizations are known as Communist 
fronts? 

Mr. Baumann. They are just known by the insiders as fronts, but 
the rank and file do not know- this. But the International Workers 
Order is not — it has a strong membership among the foreign-speak- 
ing people, and for that reason it does not take to the English-speak- 
ing people; I mean, there is just that distinction there, that racial 
distinction. 

Mr. Matthews. Is there a branch of the National Negro Congress 
in Buffalo? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. That is controlled by them. 

Mr. Mattheavs. That is controlled by the Communists? 

Mr. Baumann. Definitely. 

Mr. Matthews. And known to be such? 

Mr. Baumann. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. The American Youth Congress, are they operating 
there \ 

Mr. Baumann. Oh, yes; the American Youth Congress? Yes — is 
that the Government organization — no: the American Youth Con- 
gress — no. They are not in operation any more. They were about 
a year ago. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything about the National Youth 
Administration in Buffalo? 

Mr. Baumann. I certainly do. 

The Chairman. Under the Government? You don't mean that 
the Communists control it. 

Mr. Baumann. They do not control it, but they have got a group 
of people in there, teachers, something like that — the Sobieraj I 
spoke of. that used to go out to organize the steel workers 

The Chairman. Do they hold positions in that administration? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. 

The Chairman. What positions do they hold? 

Mr. Baumann. T do not know — teachers or something — teaching 
manual crafts or handcraft. 

Thf Chairman. From your long experience in the trade-union 
movement, and especially your connections with the C. I. O., to what 

■jl'.Cl— 39 — vol. 9 21 



5576 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

extent do you think the Communists in the C. I. O. control its policies 
and its activities? 

Mr. Baumann. I could not say that. In Buffalo they have a very 
good control of several of the unions and of the C. I. O. in general be- 
cause of the tie-up of Lillian Brill being the secretary to Thompson. 
And, as you know, in a great many cases the secretary to an executive is 
very often the executive sub rosa. 

The Chairman. Is the same thing true in reference to Syracuse? 

Mr. Baumann. I do not think it is any more. It was — Syracuse? 
Well, it is not, because there is no movement left to amount to- 
anything. 

In May 1937 I went to a steel workers' meeting in Syracuse to 
speak. I had to journey from Rochester. I got to Syracuse that 
night, and I could hardly get through the hall, it was so crowded. 
And it was one of the largest halls there. March left there to come 
to Buffalo — the Communist director. I saw his record, I saw his 
files, and he had 17 dues-paying members. That is what it came to 
in less than a year, from 1,000 down to 17. 

The Chairman. But does the C. I. O. still claim the same mem- 
bership ? 

Mr. Baumann. It is the same as it was in 1937, or more. 

The Chairman. They do not take into consideration the tremendus 
loss of members ? 

Mr. Baumann. Oh, no. 

The Chairman. Did you say that the C. I. O. in your territory had 
lost two-thirds of its membership? 

Mr. Baumann. I would say about that. 

The Chairman. Do you think that is true largely over the country? 

Mr. Baumann. I do not know. 

The Chairman. You do not know that? 

Mr. Baumann. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you say, Mr. Baumann, that the Communists 
were of such significance in the C. I. O. that if they withdrew or were 
put out, there would be a real danger of the collapse of the C. I. O. ? 

Mr. Baumann. No. If they were put out. it would be the best thing 
that could happen, or if they withdrew. 'But they will not. There 
would be absolutely no danger if every Communist was to resign or 
be expelled from the C. I. O. tomorrow; I think there would be & 
people join for every 1 that left. I know that in the Bethlehem Steel 
works, which is in Lackawanna, if I were permitted to be an organizer 
for the Steel Workers' Organizing Committee and got up on a soap 
box in front of the gates of the Bethlehem Steel and denounced the 
Communist Party and say that we have fired the 3 Communist organ- 
izers there because of the fact that they are Communists, and for no 
other reason, I could sign up 500 men on the spot and get their dollar. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, the Communist Party has ob- 
structed the organization of these workers? 

Mr. Baumann. Absolutely. That was one big block, the reason 
why people would not join the C. I. O. 

Mr. Matthews. How many members did the Steel Workers' Organ- 
izing Committee have in the Republic plant in Buffalo when the strike 
was called? 

Mr. Baumann. One hundred and sixteen. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5577 

Mr. Matthews. Out of how many employees? 

Mr. Baumann. Three thousand three hundred. 

Mr. Matthews. With 116 members they culled a strike in a plant 
employing 3.300? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. 

The Chairman. How in the world did they manage to get the others 
to go 011! on strike? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes: what tactics did they use for such a thing as 
that I 

Mr. Baumann. Well, of course, I was in charge of the strike. They 
put me in charge of the strike although I was against the strike. But 
it was a strike, and you have to make it a strike when it is called. 
Well, you see. the majority of the people see a lot of pickets out in 
front, and they do not like to go through a picket line, a lot of them. 
I think at one time we had 1,200 out. 

The Chairman. You mean that you could taken only 117 men and 
call an organization out on strike, and they would influence the balance 
of the workers in the plant? 

Mr. Baumann. I do not have to have any of the 117 men. 

The Chairman. You say you do not have to have them? 

Mr. Baumann. I do not have to have any of them there — well, 
maybe half a dozen or so. I get others, outside pickets. 

The Chairman. You get outside pickets? 

Mr. Baumann. Surely. 

The Chairman. You mean you import pickets from other terri- 
tory? 

Mr. Baumann. No; from the same city, but from other unions. 

The Chairman. Is that frequently done? 

Mr. Baumann. I would not say that — well, sometimes it is. 

The Chairman. And the members who are not on strike will go 
out on strike because they do not want to pass the picket line: is 
that right? 

Mr. Baumann. That is right; or in some cases, where they have 
not joined the union, they have not joined it because they are afraid. 
I n the Republic Steel case, there were cases that came to my attention 
that that was the reason they did not join the union, because they 
had 65 armed police on the floor at one time. 

The Chairman. You say that the Republic Steel Co. had 65 armed 
police '. 

Mr. Baumann. Sixty-five armed police on each shift. They would 
examine every person; if you passed leaflets out in front of the 
plant, they would search the man and take the leaflets right out of 
his pockets, right in front of the people, right in front of the organ- 
izers. 

The Chairman. Then the Communists really feed on just com- 
plaints. They really thrive on just complaints of the men. In other 
words, conditions in some plants are bad and they take advantage 
<>[' that situation to agitate. 

Mr. Baumann. And add a little to it. 

The Chairman. They would not get very far if conditions in the 
plants were satisfactory, would they? 

Mr. Baumann. Oh, no; of course not. 

Mr. Matthews. But they add to the complaints, as you say? 



5578 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Baumann. Oh, yes. I have had occasion — you see, this is a 
difficult thing. It is one thing to sign a contract with a company 
and another thing to keep amicable relations with the company when 
there are a lot of Communists in the union, because they are con- 
stantly criticising, as I showed you here, in the tactics of the leaders, 
in order to discredit the leaders. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you found in your experience that the Com- 
munists proceed on the principle that if you have no grievance 

Mr. Baumann. Make one. 

Mr. Matthews. You can still complain about the soap in the toilets? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes; make a grievance But that is not what a good 
organizer does. He just tries to keep amicable relations with the com- 
pany. I have a clipping here, an editorial, about our relations with 
this Worthington Pump Co., from the leading Buffalo newspaper, 
commenting on the wonderful conditions there. There was a dinner 
given where there were the leaders of the union and the leaders of the 
company and the company employees. This is the union that the 
Communists tried to disrupt. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you found it possible in your experience to 
organize trade-unions and still retain amicable relations with the 
management ? 

Mr. Baumann. I organized and had a part in organizing some 35 
unions in and around Buffalo, and I never had occasion, to get a con- 
tract, to pull the men out on strike. I signed at least 30 contracts 
without calling the men out on strike. I organized them. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean the relations were sufficiently amicable 
that you did not have to plunge the men into strikes ? 

Mr. Baumann. That is right. If I go in and lay my cards on the 
table, and I say to the manager of the plant or the owner of the plant, 
"Here, I have got 51 percent, or 60 percent, or 75 percent of your men 
organized, and I want a contract, and I want to discuss contractual 
relations with you, in only one or two instances — oh, I will say half 
a dozen instances — have I had to go to the National Labor Relations 
Board because they were stubborn and would not do it. In the average 
case I can get into conference with them. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you found that Communists are opposed on 
principle to negotiating contracts on an amicable basis? 

Mr. Baumann. I have not found that so much, because of this fact : 
I know the Communists, and I never allow them to get into any union 
that I have jurisdiction over. I never allow them to get on my com- 
mittee, my contracting or negotiating committee. I see to it that they 
do not do that. 

The Chairman. I want to ask you this question : As a man who has 
had quite an active part in union work, what, in your opinion, is 
the greatest thing that the unions, both the A. F. of L. and the C. I. O., 
could do in the interest of the laboring people? 

Mr. Baumann. The first thing they have got to do is to <ret together. 

The Chairman. Can they ever get together with the Communists 
in the C.I. O.? 

Mr. Baumann. Not until they purge them. 

The Chairman. The C. I. O. has first got to purge the ranks of 
its members of Communists before there is any hope of getting 
together ? 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5579 

Mr. Baumann. Yes. It is like this, for instance. If I have this 
glass here half filled with water, and if I were to pour some water 
into it that is contaminated, that is not fresh water, no matter how 
n mch water I added to it, still it would be contaminated water. 

The Chairman. So as an experienced trade-union organizer and 
official, especially with the C. I. O., you think the C. I. O. has got 
to purge its ranks of the Communists and get rid of the Communists 
who are organizers and officials before there is any hope of any 
settlement of the differences between the A. F. of L. and the C. I. O. ? 

Mr. Baumann. Yes: if the A. F. of L. are discreet. They would 
have to do that, or else accept the consequences. The only union 
in the A. F. of L. that 

Mr. Matthews. You mean that it would be indiscreet on the part of 
the A. F. of L. to accept the C. I. O. without the purge? 

Mr. Baumann. It would be indiscreet; yes. 

The Chairman. You were about to say that the only union in the 
A. F. of L. 

Mr. Baumann. That is controlled by the Communists 

The Chairman. What is that union? 

Mr. Baumann. The teachers. 

The Chairman. We had testimony before the committee that 11 of 
the national organizations affiliated with the C. I. O. are under the 
control and domination of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Baumann. It is possible, bat I do not happen to £ ome in contact 
with them; I mean, that is not within my experience in Buffalo. I 
know that the teachers' union is, but it does not amount to much. 

The Chairman. Would it not seem to you that those who are so 
anxious to bring about this unity between the two organizations would 
say something about the Communists who occupy these key positions? 

Mr. Baumann. Well, they would and they would not. You see, it 
is an admission if they do. 

The Chairman. If the situation is — and that is undoubtedly the 
view of many trade-union leaders right now — that there can be no unity 
until this Communist question in the C. I. O. is settled, if that is 
accepted among the union leaders, and there are so many people 
anxious to bring about unity, it would seem to me that those who are 
anxious would come right out — be outspoken — and recognize the situa- 
tion, and say that they ought to get rid of these Communists in the 
C. I. O. 

Mr. Baumann. They would have to discredit the past in order to 
make the future better. 

The Chairman. What difference would it make, if they admitted a 
mistake? 

Mr. Baumann. If it were me, I would. 

The Chairman. That is the point. I have never been able to under- 
stand why people have so much pride that they will not acknowledge 
what is t rue. You have an insl ance of that — several instances of that — 
in which they would rather do almost anything than acknowledge the 
truth of something that is almost common knowledge, the Communist 
penetration of the C. I. O. 

Mr. Baumann. They have always denied it. and in order to admit 
it now, they would have to admit that they were wrong before. 

There might be something to that. There are a lot of other things 
that a person has to consider in these situations. Here is a point. 



5580 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The rank and file of the trade union, particularly in new unions like 
the steel workers, the automobile workers, are very mobile. I mean, 
they are moving around. They do not know where they are at. 
They might be in favor of one thing today and another thing to- 
morrow. You can get a contract for them — for instance, I have gone 
in and gotten contracts, where they got a raise in pay and all kinds of 
good conditions, and as soon as they got the contract, they stopped 
paying dues. They figured, why should they pay dues, when they had 
gotten what they wanted. That is as far as they can see. They do 
not look to tomorrow. These very same people, if you were to come 
out and say, "We are going to purge our ranks of Communists," you 
are admitting that they have Communists in the ranks, and they 
are liable to drop out of the union. And then you could never get 
them back in again. You see, it is a very ticklish proposition, and it is 
very difficult to handle a situation like that, to know just what to 
do under the circumstances. 

The Chairman. You think, in other words, that there is a fear on 
the part of the C. I. O. leadership that if they admit the truth of 
these charges and proceed to purge their ranks of these Communists 
that it will discredit the whole organization and they will lose what 
members they w T ould have left. 

Mr. Baumann. That is it, because if the thing were really sound, 
if it had been built up over a long period of years, like the A. F. of 
L. is, it would be different. You see, it is a case of the survival of 
the fittest. The best are left. The weak ones have dropped out. 
You have not got that situation in a new union. I am not trying 
to discredit the union by saying that. I am looking at it from 
their own standpoint and really defending their position to a cer- 
tain extent. If I were in the same position I admit that it would be 
difficult to handle. 

The Chairman. You do not believe the A. F. of L. would be wise 
or would be acting in the interest of the trade-union movement to 
settle its differences with the C. I. O. as long as the Communist ques- 
tion remains unsettled? 

Mr. Baumann. No ; for several reasons. If I were a general in an 
army I would not attack a city and lose some of my men in attacking 
the city if I knew that I would get it eventually by starving them 
out, Eventually they know, if they hang on long enough, they are 
going to get the C. I. O. The C. I. O. will either disintegrate or 
come over to them. If the same conditions prevail in it that prevail 
now, they will not. The A. F. of L. will never destroy them. They 
will destroy themselves, and they are rapidly doing that, unless 
somebody is allowed to come in and wake these people up. But the 
thing is this. I would not be allowed to get up in a union meeting 
and say what I am saying here. There would be enough Commu- 
nists in there, they would probably hit me over the head with a chair 
before I said 10 words. And the rest of the people would not defend 
me. Your friends do not come to your defense at a time when you 
need them, but your enemies work against you. They just follow the 
lines of least resistance. 

The Chairman. We will adjourn until Monday morning at 10 : 30. 
(Whereupon, an adjournment was taken until Monday, October 9, 
1939, at 10:30 a.m.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVI- 
TIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



MONDAY, OCTOBER 9, 1939 

House of Representatives, 
Special Committee to Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. C. 

The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) pre- 
siding:. 

Present : Messrs. Dies (chairman), Voorhis, Mason, and Thomas. 

Present also: Mr. Whitley, counsel to the committee, and Mr. J. B. 
Matthews, director of research for the committee. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Mr. Voorhis 
has a statement to make. 

Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Chairman, I just want to say, in connection with 
this report on communism in the District and as it affects the 
teachers 

The Chairman. You are speaking of the report that we got at Com- 
munist headquarters? 

Mr. Voorhis. That is right. 

I have unmistakable evidence and information that neither of the 
locals mentioned in that report are locals of the public-school teachers, 
and, on the other hand, that the public-school teachers in this District 
who are in the Federation of Teachers' local have been very active 
in combatting communism and Mere indeed responsible for a resolu- 
tion in the convention of the American Federation of Labor in 1935 
asking an investigation of communism among the teachers. And ever 
since that time they have been very active in those directions. 

I just want to say that so that the record would be complete. 

The Chairman. Yes. Now, here is a telegram also, which I was 
asked to read, from the San Antonio Light, San Antonio, Tex. : 

Douglas Jacobs testified to correspondence with Miss Peggy Vance, whom he 
identified as being employed by the San Antonio Light. Miss Vance has never 
been employed on this newspaper, but was employed on another newspaper in 
this city. In case the witness appears again, may we have this correction entered 
for the record? In case witness does not appear, will you enter this message in 
the record'.- 

That is signed "Dwight Allison, managing editor, San Antonio 
Light." 

Now I lie committee will have to go into executive session for a 
few moments. Will everyone please vacate the room except the wit- 
nesses and Lieutenant Lineberger? 

(The committee thereupon went into executive session.) 

5581 



5582 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

(At the conclusion of the executive session, the committee pro- 
ceeded, at 10 : 45 a. m., in open session, as follows :) 

TESTIMONY OF OLIVER KENNETH GOFF 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand. You solemnly 
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God? 

Mr. Goff. I do. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your full name, Mr. Goff? 

Mr. Goff. Oliver Kenneth Goff. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your address? 

Mr. Goff. Rural Route 3, Delavan, Wis. 

Mr. Whitley. How old are you, Mr. Goff? 

Mr. Goff. Twenty-five. 

Mr. Whitley. Where were you born ? 

Mr. Goff. In Darien, Wis. 

Mr. Whitley. What is your occupation? 

Mr. Goff. Salesman. 

The Chairman. What does he sell? 

Mr. Goff. For the McNess Products Co. at Freeport. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Goff. are you a member of the Young Com- 
munist League? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. When did you join the Young Communist League? 

Mr. Goff. In May 1936. * 

Mr. Whitley. May 1936? 

Mr. Goff. That is the second day of May. 

Mr. Whitley. Where did you join? 

Mr. Goff. In Milwaukee, Wis. 

Mr. Whitley. And under what name did you join the Young 
Communist League ? 

Mr. Goff. John Keats. 

Mr. Whitley. John Keats? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Was it suggested to you at the time you joined 
that you join under an assumed name? 

Mr. Goff. I was asked by Gene Dennis and Fred Keller to take 
this name for the records. 

Mr. Whitley. Is that a general practice of the Young Communist 
League ? 

Mr. Goff. Yes; that is carried out both in the Young Communist 
League and the Communist Party. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you a member of the Communist Party, Mr. 
Goff? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Whitley. When did you join the Communist Party? 

Mr. Goff. The same day I joined the league, I joined the party. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, you were recruited into the Young 
Communist League and into the Communist Party itself both on 
the same day? 

Mr. Goff. That is true. 

Mr. Whitley. And under what name did you join the Communist 
Party? 



A T.CJL Member h 



, a. loyal aupporter a»d ecttre b«Ud»r •( 
tba labor movement; a tro* neater tor 
the eauao of th« people. 



a constructive worker In behalt »f **» 
trad* onion or ma»» organlrattan. 

a, booster and b»»*er of tb* Tomi* 
Communist Leasee. Therefore,- » «oo<5 
T.CU'er par* *"■ <*<*** re#t»larlj> eaeb 
month; attends all breneb meeUB«r»; 
partleipaiMi actively i» th* work of the 
T.CJU; and stadias to train httnaolf for 
leadership. 

a coed comrade and trtsa* to bt» fol- 
low membert and to tb* y»a*W people 
srltb. wfcona be worka. 



193* 



OCTOBrB 



XOVKMBEft t DCOCaTBrB 



■ H ais.ii i n . I — 






Branch or Unit 
«f the 

Young Communist 
League, U.S.A. 

Date Joined 



City/£> • ,7. Statey/^C. 



J.V*JL<r- 



Sig**t*r* o/ Stcrttmry 



I 



Membership Books in the Communist Party of the U. S. A., and Young 
Communist League, U. s. A., Made Out to John Keats, Party Name of 
Kenneth Goff. 




Communist Party of the U. S. A. 

Motion of the < ommo uKl InK-rimf loo»l> 



1937 ■ :; O 

ember-ship Book < < 

;tate^f^^ Cwm'-r 

"ity Dist.. . Section 

» # f^ y 
:rhis Book w;s i~s ie»l on. . ( . . . ?./. . . 

(date) 

Initiation ■ f_y .V 

•- . S ■•'.it-.::» ."•? D - 



No. 



<o Party MfmNrs :p :t 


\ \ . : > ' tint e as : 


i <s Pjr:j- Se.il stain; ! 


1" •- \ b> t*-# 


Central Committp* 


P U S A. 


^■|^B> -' 





A Y.C.L. Member Is . . . 

a loyal supporter and active builder of 

the labor movement; a true fighter for 
the came of the people. 

.... a constructive worker in behalf of hi» 
trade union or mass organization. 

.... a student of all the cultural achieve- 
ments of man, devoting himself es- 
pecially to the study of Socialism and 
to training for leadership. 

.... a booster and builder of the Young 
Communist Leacrue. A good YCL cr 
pays dues regularly, attends all branch 
meetings: participates actively in the 
work of the YCL. 

a comrade and friend to his fellow 
members and to the young people with 
whom be works. 







MAY 






APRIL 






JUNE 




JULY 


AUG. 




SEPT. 




OCT. 


NOV. 




DEC 


ASSESSMENT 




ASSESSMENT 



Name J\ttt$ 

Date Joined jtSf+tl*" . 'WC % 

Siiifiatura Stat* fUe'r 



County *. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5583 

Mr. Goff. John Keats, also. 

Mr. Whitley. The same name? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. And for the same reasons? 

Mr. Goff. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. What type of membership do you hold in the 
Communist Party? 

Mr. Goff. Well, it is a member at large; it is a special member- 
ship. In other words, I don't have to meet with any unit or branch 
01 the party, so that I can work in front organizations and work in 
church groups and not be known to the members of the organization. 

Mr. Whitley. I see. That is to keep your membership very 
secret? 

Mr. Goff. That is true. 

Mr. Whitley. And were you instructed not to contact any local or 
associate with the rank and file members in public places? 

Mr. Goff. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. So that there would be no way of identifying you 
with the Communist Party? 

Mr. Goff. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, I have here Mr. Goff's membership 
books both in the Young Communist League and in the Communist 
Party. His membership book in the Young Communist League is 
under the name of John Keats and the signature of the secretary is 
Paul Herve. The book shows that he joined the Young Communist 
League at Milwaukee in April 1936. Mr. Goff says that date April 
1936. is a mistake ; that he actually joined in May i.936. 

Also his membership book in the Communist Party under the name 
of John Keats, signed by the district organizer, Gene Dennis. 

Now, Mr. Goff, what positions have you held — let me ask you this 
question first: Are you still a member of the Young Communist 
League ? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. A member in good standing? 

Mr. Goff. Well, you would not say "good standing," because I have 
been at outs on certain things ; but I have never been brought to trial and 
have never been removed from the league as yet ; that is, I have been 
in their offices as late as 2 weeks ago. 

Mr. Whitley. Are you still a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. What positions have you held, both in the Young 
Communist League and in the Communist Party. Mr. Goff? 

Mr. Goff. Well. I have held lots of different committees, and then I 
was a member of the State board of the Young Communist League for 
the State of Wisconsin, and a member of the plenum committee for 
the western district, and a member of the national committee of the 
Young Communist League. 

Mr. Whitley. A member of the national committee of the Young 
Communist League? 

Mr. Goff. That is right. 

The Chairman. I wonder if you can develop — I think it is impor- 
tant for you to develop why lie joined and that it was bona fide. In 
other words, he did not join for any purpose of testifying? 



5584 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Whitley. That is right. I will get to that in just a minute., 
Mr. Chairman. 

In other words, Mr. Goff, you have been a very active member of both 
organizations since you joined in 1936 and have held positions of 
responsibility? 

Mr. Goff. That is true. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, are you also a member of the American Youth 
Congress ? 

Mr. Goff. Yes; a member of the National Administrative Committee. 

Mr. Whitley. You are a member of the National Administrative 
Committee of the American Youth Congress? 

Mr. Goff. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. And when did you join the American Youth 
Congress ? 

Mr. Goff. In the latter part of 1936, just before the Congress was 
held in Cleveland, Ohio. 

Mr. Whitley. Now, will you tell the committee, Mr. Golf, how you 
first became interested in the Young Communist League and the 
Communist Party and wiry you decided to join those organizations? 

Mr. Goff. You mean from the very beginning, going clean back? 

Mr. Whitley. Yes; £0 back and show where your first interest 
was aroused and under what circumstances. 

Mr. Goff. Well, I had been working in youth organizations in 
the State of Wisconsin, both in the church and political field. I 
was a member of the executive committee of the Young Progressives 
and acted as State secretary for a considerable length of time of the 
Young Progressive Youth of the State of Wisconsin and at the time 
the depression broke out I was socially minded, along with the rest 
of the young people who were out of school and did not have a job, 
and along about that time an organization came to our town called 
the Workers Committee, later known as the Workers Alliance. That 
was around 1934. 

In 1935 I received a letter from an office in Milwaukee addressed 
to me' as a member of the workers' committee, granting me the right 
to attend a workers' school for unemployed workers, to be held in 
Madison, Wis. The money was contributed by the United States 
Government from one of their funds. I do not know whether it was 
the F. E. K. A. or exactly which fund, but it was a Government 
school, which we were to attend for 6 weeks, and all expenses would 
be paid by the Government. 

During this period of time we were taught material that was 
rather of the leftist view. Some of the teachers in the school, espe- 
cially the director of the school at that time, the director of teaching, 
was Lucille Cohen, who was a left-wing Socialist from New York, 
and is in Miss Dillings 1 red network. At this school about 80 
percent of the young people there were either Communists or leftists ; 
either Communists or fellow travelers. 
Mr. Whitley. What percent? 
Mr. Goff. About 80 percent. 

Mr. Whitley. Eighty percent of the members who attended this 
school were either party members or sympathizers, is that correct ? 
Mr. Goff. That is right. 
Mr. Whitley. How many did attend the school in this group ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5585 

Mr. Goff. Between 60 and 70. "While we wove there at the school, 
there was a lot of leftist literature passed around. Different ones 
would bring it in, and we got a view of how strikes are carried on and 
different things like that in the classes. This was held at the Beta. 
House at Madison University. 

Mr. Whitley. That is Madison. Wis.? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. Then they also put on leftist plays. Now, during 
this period of time different young Communist people would take some 
of us over to different homes in Madison and show us Communist liter- 
ature and give us some talks; tell us how they worked, how they were 
a powerful organization, and so on. One day they told us that there 
was going to be a meeting in town that they wanted us to attend, and 
a group of us boys were led by another fellow all around town, so we 
would lose the route, to the basement of a home. Then a fellow by the 
name of Cohen from New York City gave us a report on the Seventh 
World Congress. 

Mr. Whitley. That is, of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Goff. Yes; of the Communist Party. Then in this room there 
were a lor of Communists from the Madison branch, and they ex- 
plained to us how the Communist Party was the real party; it was 
the vanguard of the workers; that we might be fighting for the work- 
ers and trying to do our best, but that we had better realize that we 
needed generals in the battle; that Ave were not doing a great deal; that 
we had to concentrate our work and carry out a definite program; that 
the Communist Party were the generals, and they had the plan of 
attack, and they had the program that we could carry through. 

They tried to recruit some of us that night. I was getting irritated 
by their attacks on La Follette. being a Progressive, and started a 
terrible argument Avith them, and I did not join up. 

But after Ave left school, a feAv months later 

Mr. Whitley. Just a moment, Mr. Goff; let me interrupt at that 
point. While you were attending this workers' school did they sing 
Communist songs ? 

Mr. Goff. That is right. They sang the Comintern, the Interna- 
tionale, and sang such songs as 

Blow the bloody bugles, 
Beat the bloody drum boys, 
Blow the bloody bourgeoise 
To bloody kingdom come. 

Build a big bonfire, 
As high as the biggest church spire, 
And blow the bloody bastards 
Higher one by one. 

Mr. Voorhis. Where were these attacks on La Follette made, in the 
school? 

Mr. Goff. Not in the school, but at this Communist meeting. 

Mr. Voorhis. The}' did not like him? 

Mr. Goff. No. 

Mr. Whitley. Will von continue, after yon left the school, Mr. 
Goff. 

Mr. Goff. After I left the school. I received a letter from the Com- 
munist Party in Milwaukee. They must have gotten nry name from 
the tiles of the school. Thej told me that Earl BroAvder Avas going 
to speak at a meeting there and give a report on the Seventh World 



5586 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Congress. I hitchhiked into Milwaukee and attended a meeting at 
the auditorium, and there were a lot of students from the school there, 
an awful lot of them. 

Mr. Whitley. Apparently the Communist Party was following up 
the list of students who attended that workers' school ? 

Mr. Goff. That is right. And then they tried to recruit us that 
night. They had a long talk with us and tried to convince us that it 
was the best thing to join up, to carry on work in the Youth Congress 
and the progressive youth movement. I did not join up that night. 
I went back to Delavan. The W. P. A. situation began to be worse 
and worse, and at last the Workers Alliance in the Fox River Valley 
planned a march on Madison. I took a group of men from Delavan 
and we went up there to see whether we could get in on the march, as 
far as raising the wage scale was concerned. They were asking a wage 
scale from $40 to $48. That was the minimum wage scale paid in our 
district at that time. 

When we got to Madison we siezed the assembly chamber of the capi- 
tol. We knew that the law read that only the State police could drive 
us from the capitol. So we thought we would camp there, and we 
camped there for 10 days. We held the capitol during that period. 

I was in charge of the finance committee and was one of the three 
heads of the strike at the time. I obtained Salvation Army quarters 
for them and collected money for them. The first day we collected 
$30 from Governor La Follette. After that he did not contribute 
any more money. I guess he thought we were going to leave right 
away. 

Then during this period of time we met the strike committee, which 
was made up of six or eight people. We met in the lobby chamber 
of the senate, and six of these people, or at least every one of them 
except myself, were Communists, members of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, six of the members of the strike 
committee were Communist Party members? 

Mr. Goff. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. You met with them and you were a member of that 
committee yourself ? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. You were the only member that was not a Com • 
munist Party member? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. Go ahead. 

Mr. Goff. We met sometimes in the Vanguard Book Store in 
Madison, while we were carrying on our strike tactics, and we were 
under the leadership — well, he was not a member of the strikers, 
but he came from the student group in the university, a fellow by 
the name of Bernie Siegel, from New York City. He was a student 
there at the time, at the University of Wisconsin. 

So, after the strike was over, and we went home — the strike was 
in March; and around May Day, different organizations in different 
towns invited me to speak before their May Day demonstrations. 
I spoke in Sheboygan, Wis. Before I left, I got a letter from Lyle 
Olsen, who was the head of the strike. 

Mr. Whitley. Let me interrupt, Mr. Goff, to show you some news- 
paper clippings under a date line, Madison, Wis., having to do with 
the strike that you have just referred to [handing papers to witness]. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5587 

Mr. Goff. Yes: these are the ones. 

Mr. Whitley. The pictures accompanying those three articles, 
Mr. Chairman, have Mr. Goff's picture in there as one of the group 
That was leading thai strike at that time. 

The Chairman. That was from what newspaper? 

Mr. Goff. The Capital Times. It is either the Capital Times or 
the Wisconsin Press. 

The Chairman. I do not believe yon have offered in evidence his 
membership card, have you? 

Mr. Whitley. T did not ; no. T had them identified. Will you con- 
tinue. Mr. (loff ? 

Mr. ( rOFF. I received a letter from Lyle Olsen, who was the head of 
the st rike. and he told me that when I arrived in Milwaukee he wanted 
me to come over and talk to Gene Dennis. 

Mr. Whitley. Who was Gene Dennis? 

Mr. Goff. District organizer of the Communist Party for the eight- 
eenth district. 

Mr. Matthews. Ts Gene Dennis now the legislative representative 
of the Communist Party located here, in the city of Washington? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. Then, when I arrived in Milwaukee, I was kind of 
afraid to go up to the office there, so I went down to Sheboygan and 
gave my address, and while I was there, Dennis was in the crowd, so I 
gained courage, and when I got to Milwaukee I went up to the office, 
and they explained to me that if I would join the Communist Party 
I could keep up my activities in these other fields; that it would unify 
my activities. 

I discussed with him the possibility, the thought that I was religious 
minded, and had had intentions of becoming a minister, and I did not 
like to lose my religious ideals. They told me that I would not have to 
lose them by becoming a member of the party. All that they would 
request of me was that I would continually read — read continually — 
the material that they gave me. They told me that even though I was 
connected with the party, I could carry on my other activities on the 
q. t.: that I would be of value to them. And then they gave me this 
assumed name of John Keats, and from that time on I was a member 
of the Communist Party in the Y. C. L. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Goff, do you plan to resign from the Young Com- 
munist League and the Communist Party? 

Mr. Goff. I do. 

Mr. Whitley. Following your testimony here? 

Mr. (ioFF. 1 have my resignation there (indicating document]. 

Mr. Whitley. You have your resignation prepared? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Whitley. This is the resignation which Mr. Goff has prepared. 

The ( 'iiAiiiMAx. I think it Mould be well to have him give his reasons 
for test i lying. 

Mr. Whitley. That is incorporated in this resignation. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Mr. Whitley. I will read this resignation of Mr. Goff's. 

(The document referred to is as follows:) 

To the Young Communist League umi th< Communist Putty: 

Three years ago, like many oilier young Americans, I entered your party 
and movement, believing that your ninis were for the bettering of America, 



5588 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

both economically and socially, and that you were the true defenders of 
democracy. 

After 3 years' work in your movement, I have come to the conclusion that 
joining your party was the greatest mistake of my life. You have proven to 
me by your teachings and actions that your aims are not for the bettering of 
America, but are for furthering your own selfish ambitions and those of your 
fatherland in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. 

Had your aims been true and for the best interest of our Nation, you would 
not have had to call upon your father and higb priest, Joseph Stalin, for every 
move you make but would have found your leadership liere in the United States 
of America. 

Many of your members have come from foreign shores to our land to escape 
oppression and like termites do not become members of our household but guaw 
at the pillars of our democracy with hopes that it will crumble and you might 
profit by its fall. 

You shout to high heaven your praise for the bill of rights and all it stands 
for, yet in your own party, you pry into every member's private life, and 
see to it with all your power that he cannot live a life of his own. 

Yes. your speakers rave for hours about the mad dogs of fascism and how 
your fatherland the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and its leader, Joseph 
Stalin, is the greatest bulwark against fascism and the defender of democracy, 
and while these words are yet wet upon your lips the great Red Army of the 
fatherland and your beloved peace leader, Joseph Stalin, join hands in accord 
with Adolf Hitler, one of the biggest Fascist leaders, and one of the greatest 
enemies of democracy in our times, and together they destroy Poland and bring 
little Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania to their knees. Yes, all this your father- 
land does in the name of peace and democracy. But do you who have the 
protection of a democracy tell your fatherland the Union of Soviet Socialist 
Republics, that you do not approve of the action taken by the Red Army in its 
conquest of Poland? No! And by these and many other actions you prove 
that you and your organization are no more than puppets dancing on the 
strings pulled by Joseph Stalin and the Comintern. 

Because of your un-American ways and your lie of your so-called defense 
of democracy, I hereby submit my resignation from the Young Communist 
League and the Communist Party, to take effect immediately. I shall take my 
stand with those who are fighting for real Americanism and democracy. I 
know that this is a long and bitter fight and I am enlisted for the duration 
of the war. 

Yours truly, 

Kenneth Goff. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Goff. will you explain to the committee the re- 
lationshirj between the Young Communist League in the United 
States and the Young Communist International ? 

Mr. Goff. Have you a copy of the Communist International con- 
stitution ? 

Mr. Whitley. The program? 

Mr. Goff. The program of the Communist International. 

Mr. Whitley. This is the program of the Communist International, 
Mr. Chairman. Mr. Goff, is this the program which has been adopted 
and is used by the Communist Party of the United States? 

Mr. Goff. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. You are very positive of that? 

Mr. Goff. I am sure of that. 

Mr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, this is the program which Mr. 
Browder in his testimony stated, I believe, was not the official pro- 
gram of the Communist Party of the United States. 

Mr. Goff. This is the official program, and under section 35 it 
reads : 

The International League of Communist Youth, Communist Youth Interna- 
tional, is a section of the Communist International with full rights and is sub- 
ordinate to the Executive Committee of the Communist International. 



UN-AM 10 UK 'AX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5589 

That is the Executive Committee of the Communist International. 
It differs from the Communist Party in that the Communist Party is 
directly affiliated with the Communist International, while the youth 
group here in America is affiliated with the Young Communist In- 
ternational, which is affiliated with the Comintern. 

Mr. Winn i;y. Which, in turn, is affiliated with the Comintern? 

Mr. Goff. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. But insular as the actual control and direction of the 
Young Communist League in the United States is concerned, it is 
through the Young Communist International, subject to the domina- 
tion of the Communist International. 

Mr. Goff. That is right. 

Mr. Whttley. Mr. Goff, what are the relations between the Young 
Communist League in the United States and the Communist Party 
in the United States? 

Mr. Goff. To become a member of the Young Communist League 
you do not have to be a member of the Communist Party. But to be- 
come a member of the national board, or the national committee, or any 
of the committees or boards in the local units, you must be a member 
of the Communist Party. No one can hold office in the Communist 
youth organization without being a member of the Communist Party. 
All the leadership of the Communist youth organization take all the 
material to the Communist leader, the district organizer for the 
district, and discuss it with him before they bring it before the 
members of the units. 

Mr. Whitley. In other words, the Communist Party in the United 
States exercises complete control over the policies of the Young Com- 
munist League \ 

Mr. Goff. Yes. They made us realize one thing, that we make a 
mistake in saying that the Young Communist League is the vanguard 
of the youth. We are not. There is only one vanguard of the work- 
ing class, and that is the Communist Party, and all the other organi- 
zations are subject to that one vanguard. 

Mr. Whitley. Is my interpretation correct from your testimony, 
that the Young Communist League, insofar as policies are concerned, 
is completely subject to the Communist Party? 

Mr. Goff. That is right. 

Mr. Wtiitley. And you say that although a person can be a member 
of the Young Communist League without being a Communist Party 
member, he cannot hold any office in the Young Communist League 
unless he is a member of the Communist Party also? 

Mr. Goff. That is right. 

Mr. Whitley. Now. Mr. Goff, from your experience in the Young 
Communist League, is it right to say that its policies are decided at 
the world congresses which are held from time to time in Moscow? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. There the line is laid down for international work 
and we follow that line. 

Mr. Whitley. And the Young Communist League in this country 
does make its reports to the World Congress? 

Mr. Goff. Yes: and then we pay the international dues stamp, the 
solidarity stamp. 

Mr. Whitley. You pay dues which go to the international organ- 
ization in Moscow? 



5590 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Goff. That is right. 

The Chairman. As I understand, Mr. Whitley, you have some 
other business to attend to at this time, and Dr. Matthews will 
conduct the examination from this point on. 

Mr. Whitley. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. I think it would be well, Mr. Chairman, for the 
record, to have Mr. Goff give us the words of some of the songs 
which are customarily sung by the members of the Young Com- 
munist League in this country. 

You quoted a portion of one stanza, I believe. Would you give 
us the full wording of that? 

Mr. Goff (quoting) : 

B'ow the bloody bugles, 
Beat the bloody drum, boys, 
B'ow the bloody bourgeoise, 
To bloody kingdom come. 
Build a big boufire, 
As high as the biggest church spire, 
And blow the bloody bastards, 
Higher one by one. 

Mr. Matthews. What other songs were customarily sung? 
Mr. Goff (quoting) : 

Fly higher and higher and higher, 
Our emblem the red Soviet star. 
While every propeller is shouting, 
"Red" front, 
Defending the U. S. S. R. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have another one in mind ? 

Mr. Goff. You know the Comintern; I imagine you have the 
International. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a Christmas greeting. Did you re- 
ceive this [handing to witness] ? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is that from? 

Mr. Goff. I received that from Gil Green, who up to a couple of 
years ago was national secretary of the Young Communist League. 
Now he is a member of the Communist International. He sent this 
to me from Mexico. 

Mr. Thomas. What is the importance of that? 

Mr. Matthews. This is a Christmas greeting from the head of 
the Young Communist League to Mr. Goff, to establish his various 
connections with the Young Communist League. 

Mr. Goff. I show you a communication dated December 2, 1937, 
addressed, "Dear Comrade," and signed by Henry Winston, admin- 
istrative secretary. Who is Henry Winston? 

Mr. Goff. He is a Negro boy who lives in New York City. He 
is the administrative secretary of the Young Communist League. 

Mr. Matthews. For the whole United States? 

Mr. Goff. Yes; and the national committee. 

Mr. Matthews. At the top of this communication, Mr. Goff, there 
is a sticker attached with the date December 6 on it, and then there 
appears to be a code number, 18 B. Will you please explain the sig- 
nificance of that sticker? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5591 

Mr. Goff. 18 B-l appears on every one of the letters thai T get from 
the national committee. That is my code number. My letters come 
on this type of paper always folded up and scaled, so in case anyone 
investigates the mail and breaks this seal, immediately I have to 
report it, so that they know the Federal Government has Keen snooping 
through our mail. This little sticker at the top I send back as soon 
as I receive the letter, so that they may know I have received the 
letter. I have an address outside of the party office to send this to. 
Then they know that I have the report. Up in the corner are the 
words, '"Please destroy after reading." I am supposed to destroy the 
material at that time so that it will never be brought to light. This 
slicker happens to remain on my papers, because there were two 
national committee members in the State of Wisconsin, Leon Kaplan 
and myself, and he usually reported back that I had received my 
material from the national office. 

Mr. Matthews. Now. Mr. Goif, will you please identify the com- 
munication which we have here. For what purpose did you receive it? 

Mr. Goff. I received it to attend a meeting of the national com- 
mittee which was supposed to be held in New York on January 14, 
15. and 16. beginning at 10 o'clock on the morning of the 14th. The 
place in New York was to be announced later. That is, upon our 
arrival at the party office, we would be told where to go. 

Mr. Matthews. Was this meeting held in New York City? 

Mr. Goff. No. It was later held in Chicago. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I offer this for incorporation in 
the record, the entire communication. 

The Chairman. Is there anything in it that ought to be read at 

this point? 

Mr. Matthews. I think not. He has given the substance of it. 
It is an official notice to Mr. Goff to attend a meeting of the national 
committee. 

The Chairman. All right. 

(The document referred to is as follows:) 

Postoffiee stamp : Brooklyn, N. Y., December 7, 1 :30 a. m. 
Mr. John Keats. 

818 North Mar-shall Street, 

Milwaukee, Wis. 

December 2, 1937. 

Dear Comrade : The Resident Board has decided to call a full meeting of the 
National Council for Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, January 14th, 15th, and 
16th, beginning at 10: 00 a. m. the morning of the 14th. The place, in New York 
City, \\ill he announced later. Besides members of the National Council, Dis- 
trict Organizers and a number of leading comrades are being invited to attend 
tliis Plenum. 

We are giving six- weeks notice in order that in every District the District 
Organizer and National Council members can immediately begin to make prepa- 
rations and to raise the necessary finances for the trip to New York. The 
responsibility for transportation must rest upon the Districts themselves. From 
a number of' Districts it should be possible to organize transportation by cars. 

The full agenda for the meeting has not net been prepared and will be final- 
ized on the basis of the opinions and proposals made by members of the Na- 
tional Council. The Resident Board Board proposes that there shall be one 
main report on "The 1938 Elections and the Tasks of Winning the Youth for the 
People's Front." In order to prepare the discussion properly, material will be 
sent to all comrades in advance of the meeting so that everyone will be fully 



94931— 39— vol. 9- 



5592 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

prepared to participate in the discussion. We ask that the comrades prepare in 
advance to stay during the entire session. 
Comradely yours, 

Henry Winston, 
Administrative Secretary. 
f 

uopwa 
16cio 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Goff, you stated that you were known as 
a member at large of the Young Communist League and of the Com- 
munist Party, by which was meant that you were not to be identified 
with a local branch ? 

Mr. Goff. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a card, a delegate's card, for the Eighth 
National Convention of the Young Communist League, made out to 
you, Kenneth Goff, City, Milwaukee, State, Wisconsin, and beside the 
word "branch" appears the word "special." Does that "special" sig- 
nify that you were a member at large? 

Mr. Goff. At large, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you attend this Eighth Convention of the 
Young Communist League in New York City ? 

Mr. Goff. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. On the back of the card I notice there are some 
autographs. How did those autographs happen to be on the back of 
your card ? 

Mr. Goff. While we were at the convention, I asked a few people 
that were sitting around to autograph the card because I was going 
to take it home. 

Mr. Matthews. Was one of those autographs that of Joseph 
Curran ? 

Mr. Goff. It was. 

Mr. Matthews. Is this Joseph Curran's signature [indicating on 
card] ? 

Mr. Goff. It is. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it written in your presence ? 

Mr. Goff. It was. 

Mr. Matthews. Is Joseph Curran the head of the National Mari- 
time Union? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please tell us, Mr. Goff, as regards other 
members at large occupying the same status that you occupied, with 
whom you frequently came in contact in the course of your work in 
the Young Communist League in the Communist Party; what were 
their names ? 

Mr. Goff. William Hinckley. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is William Hinckley? 

Mr. Goff. Chairman of the American Youth Congress. 

Mr. Matthews. National chairman of the American Youth Con- 

? 

Mr. Goff. Yes ; up until this last time. 
Mr. Matthews. Up until this last year? 
Mr. Goff. Yes. Joseph Cadden. 
Mr. Matthews. Who was Joseph Cadden? 



gress 



8th NATIONAL CONVENTION 



YOUNG COMMUNIST LEAGUE 



ELEGATE 

* /^*~€>a L f 

'Jk^ss^k^Suat 



l&MSif-JL* Branfck 



MAY a— 5, 1937 

WEBSTER HALL 
119 E. lldi St, N.Y.C. 



f^tS 



'%44sC*-- 



warn ff 



»SM- 






Front and Back of delegate's Card, for the Eighth National Convention 
of the Young Communist League. Made Out to Kenneth Goff. 



r.VAMKKK'AX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5593 

Mr. ( ion-. He was executive secretary up until last year of the Amer- 
ican Youth Congress. He is national chairman of the American 
Youth Congress. 

Mr. Matthews. He is national chairman of the American Youth 
Congress and formerly executive secretary? 

Mr. Goff. And executive secretary of the World Youth Congress, 
too. 

AIi\ Matthews. Did you meet him at the Eighth Convention of the 
Young Communist League? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did von know him there as a member at large of 
the Young Communist League? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall some other individuals who were 
known to you in that capacity? 

Mr. Goff. Abbott Simon. 

Mr. Matthews. Who was Abbott Simon? 

Mr. Goff. He was in charge of the legislative committee for the 
American Youth Congress. He is working here in Washington. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Joseph Lash? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What was Joseph Lash's position? 

Air. Goff. National executive secretary of the Student Union. 

Mr. Matthews. The American Student Union? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know him at this convention as a member 
at large of the Young Communist League of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Goff. Yes; he was there in that capacity. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know James Lerner? 

Air. Goff. Y^es. 

Air. Matthews. Did you know him in that capacity as a member 
at large '( 

Air. Goff. I did. 

Air. AIatthews. What position did James Lerner occupy at that 
time? 

Mr. Goff. He was secretar}' in charge of the youth work for the 
American League 

Air. Matthews. The American League for Peace and Democracy? 

Mr. Goff. The American League Against War and Fascism, it 
was called at that time. 

The Chairman. What was the last name? 

Air. AIatthews. James Lerner, secretary in charge of the youth 
work of the American League Against War and Fascism. 

The Chairman. Now the League for Peace and Democracy. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know Edward Strong? 

Air. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. AIatthews. Who was he? 

Air. Goff. He was in charge of the Christian youth work for the 
Xegro race, and he is also head of the National — — 

Air. AIatthews. The Southern Negro Youth Congress? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Air. AIatthews. Did you know him as a member at large of the 
Young Communist League at this convention? 



5594 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Miriam Bogorad? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. In what connection did you know her? 

Mr. Goff. She was the secretary for the Youth Congress. She 
carried on all the writing for the Youth Congress. 

The Chairman. She was the secretary for the Youth Congress? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Was any instruction ever given you by the offi- 
cials of the Young Communist League of the Communist Party to 
the effect that you should not under any circumstances address these 
members at large publicly in such a way that their membership 
would be known to others? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. In 1937 I was in charge of the American Youth 
Congress when it came to Milwaukee. I was in charge of all the 
arrangements there. Cadden and Lerner and Bill Hinckley had 
arrived early to do work, and we were told not to let them associate 
with any member of the Y. C L., nor should we address them as 
members of the Y. C. L.. nor in conversation bring up anything 
that would put them on the spot. 

The Chairman. Let us see what organizations you tie up. Are these 
the organizations that comprise this National Conference of the Civil 
Liberties Union that will be held in New York in a few clays, in which, 
I understand, the American Students' League, the Young Communist 
League, and many other Communist-front organizations are com- 
prised ? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir; some of them are doubtless listed in the 
public press. 

The Chairman. They will hold a national convention, at which a 
number of prominent people are invited to speak, and they will speak 
to them despite the fact that this committee has pointed out the fact, 
that these organizations are nothing but Communist organizations. I 
make that point so we may get over the idea that they are encouraging 
these organizations by lending their prestige and names on such 
occasions. 

Mr. Matthews. I will show you a letter dated New York, March 26, 
1937, addressed to you, Kenneth Goff, Milwaukee, Wis., addressed to 
you as "Dear Comrade"; and the letter is signed, '"Yours for a success- 
ful convention, Joe Clark. National Convention Director." Of what 
was Joe Clark the national director? 

Mr. Goff. Of the Young Communist League. 

Mr. Matthews. Was this communication received by you just prior 
to this national convention of the Young Communist League? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What is the substance of this letter, Mr. Goff? 

Mr. Goff. They thank me for a preconvention article that I had 
written, which was to be published in the Daily Worker, and that 
would be published sometime in April. He explains here that it is 
difficult to state on what date it would be published because there are 
already so many articles on hand. 

Mr. Matthews. Does this letter clearly acknowledge you as a mem- 
ber of the Young Communist League and as one who has written a pre- 
convention article, in regard to the convention, which is to be published 
in the Daily Worker ? 



UN-AMERICAN PllOl'AGANKA ACTIVITIES 5595 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And a few days later, did you receive this com- 
munication | indicating] ? 

Mr. Gofk. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. It is dated April 27, 1937, and is signed by An gel o 
Herndon, national chairman, and Gilbert Green, national secretary, 
of the Young Communist League. 

Mr. Goff. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What does it say? 

Mr. (m»ff. They tell me that I am invited to attend the convention 
of the Young Communist League, and say they are sending invitations 
to a few hundred prominent people. 

The Chairman. Suppose yon read the letter. 

Mr. Matthews. This letter is dated March 26, 1937, in which it is 
recognized that Mr. Goff is a member of the Young Communist League. 
And a few days later he received this last one, on their stationery, 
in which he is not called a member, but is invited as a guest to the 
coining Eeighth National Convention of the Young Communist 
League, in spite of the fact that he has in his possession credentials as 
a delegate to the convention. 

The Chairman. What was the purpose of that ? 

Mr. Matthews. Explain it, Mr. Goff; 

Mr. Goff. The purpose is that if anyone asked if he were a delegate 
to the convention — he may act as a delegate for an organization such 
as the American Youth Congress — he can say he is not a delegate to 
the convention. They can say that they have invited him along with 
other prominent leaders. 

Mr. Matthews. And he may produce this letter as evidence that he 
is not a member of the Young Communist League? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. But that he is simply invited as a guest? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. The letter reads as follows : 

We wish to extend to you a personal invitation to be present at our coming 
Eighth National Convention of the Young Communist League, as our guest. 
This convention will open in New York City, on the morning of May 2, and will 
continued through to May 5. 

Wo are inviting a few hundred prominent leaders of youth organizations to 
he present at our national convention as observers. You are one of those invited 
and we hope you will take this opportunity to get a first-hand picture of what the 
Voung Communist League is doing and what our plans are for the immediate 
future. 

While the convention will open on the morning of May 2, we wish especially 
To call to your attention the fact that on the evening of May 2 a mass 
rally greeting the convention will be held in Madison Square Garden, which 
will he addressed by William Z. Foster, Earl Browder, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn. 
Angelo Herndon, and Gil Green. We feel certain that besides being present at 
the general sessions of the national convention, you will especially want to be 
present at this gigantic mass rally. 

We hope you will find it possible to be present at our national convention, 
and we would like to have you inform us in advance as to whether you will be 
there so that we can make the necessary arrangements. This is essential, as 
the convention hall has only a limited capacity. 

You say that you already held credentials as a delegate to the 
convention at the time you received this letter2 
Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 



5596 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Those credentials have been introduced already, 
Mr. Chairman. 

I show you this document, Mr. Goff, and will ask you to please 
identify it. 

Mr. Goff. This is a document of the Milwaukee Young Commu- 
nist League. This is our publication for that district. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please identify this paper? This is from 
the State executive secretary of the Young Communist League of 
Milwaukee ? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Whose signature is that? 

Mr. Goff. Leon Kappy. 

Mr. Matthews. I will read a portion of this news letter : 

We ask that each branch act on the following emergency proposals immedi- 
ately and inform ns of yonr plans: 

1. Make a list of every contact that any member of the T. C. L. has. Organ- 
ize special recruiting committees whose function it shall be to visit these con- 
tacts and sign them; up. This is the only work of the committee for the 
month. They should work with the member in getting the recruit. In addi- 
tion, every member of the Y. C. L. should devote his main work to signing up 
at least one other member. 

2. Every branch should immediately organize a party, outing, dance, etc.. 
for the 16th anniversary of the Y. C. L. (See April review.) These can be 
called "sweet sixteen parties" and should be used for recruiting. 

Does that represent an effort on their part at recruiting members 
for the Young Communist League ? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you act upon that communication? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please describe the effort of this organiza- 
tion to do that ? 

Mr. Goff. Some unit of the Y. C. L. would hold a party — not a 
Y. C. L. party, but a preconvention party — for young people who are 
first voters. It would be a "sweet 16" party, and at that party Ave would 
ask several youths to speak, and among those that would speak would 
be the D. O. of the Young Communist League, explaining how they 
were working. It would be really a Young Communist League party. 
The people would be sitting around the room, and then we would be 
working on the person sitting next to us. They were doing that all 
the time in recruiting the Y. C. L. Girls were very useful in doing 
the recruiting work. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you another communication now, and will 
ask you to identify that. 

Mr. Goff. That is a communication received from Henry Winston, 
secretary of the Young Communist League. 

The Chairman. What is the title? 

Mr. Goff. Administrative secretary of the Young Communist 
League. I will read it : 

Dear Comrade: It is of the utmost importance that you pay immediate atten- 
tion to securing new addresses for receiving mail. This is a matter that must be 
taken care of in the next 2 weeks, otherwise we will have to cease sending you 
material until a new place is found. 

You may continue sending mail as you have in the past until you are informed 
otherwise. 



ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5597 

Mr. Matthews. They wished iho members to change their mail ad- 
dresses ? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. For what purpose? 

Mr. Goff. So that people would not get wise to the fact that we were 
receiving this literature all the time. 

Mr. Matthews. Or minutes of the Young Communist League \ 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you receive the minutes of the national board 
of the Young Communist League regularly? 

Mr. (toff. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You were a member of the national board of the 
Young Communist League? 

Mi-. Goff. Yes, sir; for 2 vears. 

Mr. Matthews. From May 1937, to May 1939? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a questionnaire. Was this sent out 
by the Young Communist League to Young Communist League 
members? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir: it was sent out about the fall of 1936. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Did you receive this? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mattheavs. The document contains two pages, and, instead of 
reading it, I ask that it be incorporated in the record. The particu- 
lar purpose is that it indicates quite clearly to what extent the Young 
Communist League goes into the private lives of its members with 
a Aiew to controlling them. 

The Chairman. Read a few questions to illustrate that point. 

Mr. Mattheavs. I will read some of them : 

Have you had military service? In what branch? Reason for enlistment? 
Rank in service? What is the extent of your military knowledge? 

If you are married, give brief biography of your wife (or husband), social 
background, political status, economic position, field of work, when married, 
etc. If divorced, state when and for what reason. If married more than 
once, give details. 

State number of brothers and sisters still living. Their occupation, economic 
position, political affiliation, economic position of wife or husband, number 
of children in each family, etc. 

How many children have you? State age and sex. Are they members of 
the Pioneers? State whether or not in school or working. If working, state 
details, kind of work, place, etc. Are they members of any other organiza- 
tions? If so, what kind. 

(The questionnaire in full is as folloAvs:) 

QUESTIONNAIRE OX THE LlFE AND ACTIVITIES OF LEADING T. 0. L. FUNCTIONARIES 

The following questions must be answered in full detail, point by point, in 
order that a full and complete picture of your life and activities shall be 
given to the party. 

Every effort must be used to give correct and exact information. No vital 
points must be omitted. 

Use separate letter-size sheets, the first of which shall start out as follows: 

(Date) 

Y. C. L. Party and Life History of 

(Real name in full) 

(Main office or function in the Y. C. L. at the present time) 
******* 



5598 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

A. SOCIAL POSITION AND ORIGIN 

State date and place of birth. Date and place of birth of parents. If not 
born in the U. S. A., state when they came to this country, and whether or 
not naturalized. 

Is father living? If so, what is his age. occupation now, and what was his 
occupation in the past? (Answer in detail.) If dead, how old at time of 
death, and what was his occupation? 

Is mother living? If so, what is her age. What is she doing at the present 
time? State social background cf mother, whether or not a worker, what 
category, did she work after marriage? 

What was economic status of family? What sources of income did it have? 
Describe your home environment. How many children in family, your place 
in family? Did you have a religious training? Do you have any religious 
affiliation? To what political parties did your parents belong? 

When did you begin work? At what kind of work? Give complete history 
of the various jobs you have held, length of time at each job, etc. State name 
of company for which you worked, where located. State why you changed 
jobs; if you were fired from jobs, state reason. Have you ever had any other 
income except your wages? If so, from what source? 

Have you had military service? In what branch? Reason for enlistment? 
Rank in service? What is the extent of your military knowledge? 

If yen are married, give brief biography of your wife for husband), social 
background, political status, economic position, field of work, when married, 
etc. If divorced, state when and for what reason. If married more than once, 
give details. 

State number of brothers and sisters living. Their occupation, economic posi- 
tion political affiliation, economic position of wife or husband, number of 
chPdren in each family, etc. 

How many children have you? State age and sex. Are they members of 
the Pirneers? State whether or not in school or working. If working, state 
detaPs, kind of work, place, etc. Are they members of any other organiza- 
tions? If so, what kind? 

Are any members of your family sympathetic to the Communist Party and 
Y. C. L.? State details, whether or not they read the party press, vote the 
party ticket, etc. Have any of your relatives (parents, brothers, sisters, uncles, 
aunts, crusins) ever worked for the Government in any capacity? Have you 
ever traveled outside of the U. S. A.? If so, for what purpose? 

B. INTELLECTUAL DEVELOPMENT AND EDUCATION 

G've full details about your education (nonnolitical). When did you enter 
school? How many years did you attend? Did you finish grammar school? 
High school? University? How many years in university? Have you attended 
evemng classes or taken correspondence courses? State reasons for leaving 
school. What party education have you had? Evening classes? Independent 
study? Y. C. L. or party schools? What literature have you re«d? In answer- 
ing tilis question, differentiate between what you have road and what vou hqve 
studied. What propaganda work have you done in the Y. C. L. or party? What 
agitation? What have you written? With what languages, other than English, 
are you familiar? State extent of your knowledge, i. e., can you read, write, 
speak? 

C POLITICAL LIFE 

When did you enter the revolutionary movement? Where? State f'dly 
yonr activities. Were you a member of the Y. P. S. L. Socialist Party? The 
I. W. W.? The Socialist Labor Party? Give full details. To w^at youth 
organizations did you belong? When did you join the Y. C. L., Communist 
Party? Where? Under what circumstances? Who was the district organizer? 
With what recommendation did you join? With whom were you associated 
in the Y. C. L. and the party at the time you joined? State fuPy your 
activities from the time you joined until the present date. What mass work 
have you done? Where? What factory work? Where? What offices have 
you held in the Y. C. L. party? When? How long? Where? (Answer this 
ouestion in the fullest detail.) Have you ever been out of the Y. C. L. or party? 
Under what circumstances? For how long? When were you reinstated? State 
full details. What conventions, conferences of the Y. C. L. and party have 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5599 

you attended? Give full details. In what districts have you been a member? 
In what cities, sections, units? What work did you do in each place? How 
many workers have been recruited into the V. C. L. and party through your 
efforts? What position did you take in the chief period of Y. C. L. and party 
life? Stale fully your position on the inner struggles of the Y. C. L. and 
party. Have you at any time associated yourself with an opposition group 
outside the party? If so. state details, length of associations, etc. 

1). PARTICIPATION IX TRADE-UNIONS AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS 

To what trade-union have you belonged? Name of local? When did you 
join? Where? How long in union? What offices did you hold in union? 
What paid positions? Present status in union? Date and extent of member- 
ship? What have been your anion activities? What is your present union 

status? 

To what other workers' organizations have you belonged, and what offices 
in them have you held? Give dates, whether paid or voluntary services, other 
details. Give the same information as of the present time. 

Have you ever participated in government bodies? Give dates, description of 
posts, other details. 

E. REPRESSIONS AND PERSECUTIONS 

Have you taken part iu strikes and demonstrations? Give dates, places, and 
other details. Have you ever been arrested? When? On what occasion? For 
what cause? Have you ever been convicted? Wlien? On what charge? 
What prison sentences have you served? Length of time in jail? Where? 
Were you tortured while in jail? 

F. SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION 

State chief paid positions in party or mass organizations and places of work. 
Who can confirm the truth of the above statements? Name responsible party 
and Y. C. L. members familiar with the various phases of your activities 
as stated above. 

Return this questionnaire with your answers promptly. 

Sign the statement. 

The Chairman. I wonder if vou know why tliev were so anxious 
to find out if they had military training, or not. 

Mr. Goff. I have another statement that will bring that out later. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a pamphlet entitled "Resolutions of the 
Executive Committee, Young Communist International on the report 
of the National Executive Committee Young Communist League of 
the U. S. A. on the immediate tasks in the factor for the working- 
youth." 

Do you identify- this pamphlet ? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir; it is published by the Young Communist League. 

Mr. Matthews. I read from page 12 of this pamphlet, including 
instructions to the Young Communist League in the United States. 
These are instructions for Young Communist League members : 

(d) It is necessary to achieve a decisive improvement of the work in the Army 
and Navy. Special papers, leaflets, and letters should be used to explain the 
nature of the present events. It is necessary to head the struggle for partial 
demands, to strive for the organization of strikes against shipments to China, and 
actions by the workers. Where we do not succeed in blocking shipments it is 
necessjiiy to establish contacts with individual soldiers, sailors, and marines, 
instructing them as to their tasks and work. Soldiers and sailors should be 
recruited into the Y. C. L., and groups should be formed together with the party 
in the armed forces. 

Mr. Vooriiis. What is the date of that document? 

Mr. Mattiikws. The document is not dated. I think it is about 
1935. Do you know that is t he purpose of the Young Communist 
League and of the Communist Party? 



5600 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. I think later on yon will find some minutes 
that will support it. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a document dated March 26, 1938, en- 
titled "Minutes of national resident board meeting, Young Communist 
League, U. S. A." 

I will ask you to identify this paper. 

Mr. Goff. This document contains the minutes of the national resi- 
dent board meeting of the Young Communist League, U. S. A., and is 
dated March 26, 1938. The words "Please destroy after reading*' 
appear on the left. 

Mr. Matthews. Those words appear in the upper left-hand corner— 
"Please destroy after reading." Did you receive that document as a 
member of the national committee of the Young Communist League ? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. On page 5 of this document appear the following 
paragraphs : 

Progressive anti-Fascist students should not permit this to continue ; they 
should avail themselves of the opportunities for securing; military training and 
becoming commissioned in the Officers' Reserve Corps of the U. S. A., and thus 
from within fight against the reactionary officers in the R. O. T. C. who carry 
on propaganda against the labor movement, to demand their removal and their 
replacement by officers sympathetic to labor. Progressive students should heed 
the lessons of Spain and take advantage of this opportunity to become 
acquainted with and to be educated in military science and not allow the 
bourgeoisie to have the monopoly on the knowledge of military science. 

Every available opportunity must be utilized to get progressive students to 
join the R. O. T. C, at the same time fighting against compulsory attendance, 
against reactionary officers, thus to liquidate the R. O. T. C. as an instrument 
of reaction. The knowledge of military sciences is of inestimable value to 
working people, particularly in view of the efforts being made in this country 
by Fascist-minded men to win over large sections of the Army for support, of 
fascism. 

The Chairman. Are those official minutes? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir; official minutes of the national resident board. 

The Chairman. Is there anything further you want in connection 
with that document? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir: in this particular document there is a 
section that deals with a publication known as the Champion. I 
would like to introduce some copies of that publication, but at this 
time I think it would be well to have this entire copy of the minutes 
incorporated in the record. It contains five pages. 

The Chairman. Does it deal with political Communist activities? 

Mr. Matthews. The agenda reads: 

May 30 — C. Ross: Champion — B. Steinberg: Literature — F. Franklin: Re- 
view — J. Starobin ; Mexico — (discussion continued) ; R. O. T. C. memorandum. 

(Said minutes in full are as follows:) 

Please destroy Minutes of National Resident Board Meeting, Young 

after reading communist league, u. s. a., march 26, 1938 

Agenda: 1. May 30th, C. Ross. 

2. Champion, B. Steinberg. 

3. Literature, F. Franklin. 

4. Review, J. Starobin. 

5. Mexico (discussion, contd.). 

6. R. O. T. C. Memorandum. 



IX AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5601 

1. May -10th. — Most peace actions thus far have been carried through by the 
student movement and have not involved trade-unionists and Negro young 
people. May 30th should bring the struggle for peace into all areas and groups. 

The Student SI like should not be limited to the students alone. There 
should be solidarity actions in the trade-unions, stoppages in shops, student 
solidarity speakers to trade-unions, neighborhood meetings in the evening among 
Negro youth, etc. 

Plan adopted for May 30th by N. Y. District can indicate a line for other 
Districts to follow. The Youth Congress will organize a peace festival, not 
militant in character. The same day there is to be a Y. C. L. parade in the 
city bringing forward our program, acting for peace in a militant fashion. In 
New York ir will be the last day of the Party Convention and we should show 
the delegates from out of town what the Y. C. L. looks like in action. Similarly 
in other parts of the country there should be Y. C. L. actions or peace demon- 
strations for collective security in addition to whatever Youth Congress festi- 
vals may be run. 

'J. Champion. — Circulation very low outside of I. W. O. which takes 14,000. 
The magazine costs about 5% a copy and they pay only about 3%£ per copy. 
The April issue is at the printer and we are trying to get money for it. 

The costs of the magazine are $1,010 per month and the income $910. Unless 
the comrades in the larger districts and the comrades in the trade-unions 
assume responsibility for the circulation it will not go over. Such a magazine 
is needed and can play an important role in the growing progressive movement. 

We have to have some organ through which to speak to the masses of youth. 
The only objection that I have to liquidating the Champion is the fact that 
we are trying to liquidate the problem in an easy way. If we liquidate it 
today, then the problem is still before us that we have to have something with 
which to speak to the masses of youth. 

It is difficult to sell a magazine for 100. We should cut down the size and 
costs so that the magazine pays for itself and where what the I. W. O. pays 
will cover the costs. There is only one way to get the unions to buy the maga- 
zine, and that is to have one person as an agent to sell it at local union meet- 
ings. New York County must take certain steps to see that the magazine, on 
the basis of 50, with interesting and important material for trade-union youth, 
is brought into the trade-unions. 

The magazine has to be tied up more closely with the youth movement and 
organizations. It should run series of articles like the Daily did on the 
Y. M. C. A. and push the magazine in those organizations when the features 
a ppear. 

Proposal : Proceed to cut down on expenses until they equal or come below 
the actual monthly income. In accordance with an increasing income, 
we should first spend money on promotion, sending somebody into the 
field, get out posters, leaflets to specific organizations, and after that, as 
the income increases, consider the increase in staff and size of the 
magazine. 

Motion : The comrades should meet later to cut down the expenses of the 
magazine to meet income. 

3. Literal \irc. — Proposals for a long-range program and for aparatus. 
Imediate proposal : Recruiting drive pamphlet written by Carl Ross to be 
out by Apr. 1. 
Pamphlets to be written with perspective of having them ready in next 3 
or 4 months : 

1. Recruiting Drive — Carl Ross. 

2. R. O. T. C. and militarism in education — Bert W. 

3. Miss America Faces the Future i problems of girls) — Claudia Jones. 

4. Jewish question (zionism, antisemitism, etc.) — Joe Starobin. 

5. July 4th (not for an immediate campaign but of permanent value) — Joe 

Clark. 

6. Lincoln the Emancipator — Francis Franklin. 

7. Polar Explorations — Joe Starobin. 

S.America — the Melting Pot (national traditions) — Max Bedacht. 
'•>. Farm Youth — Harlan Crippen. 

A series of booklets to sell for about 2."x 4 of about 100 pages each, written 
by authorities on the subject. A fund has been set aside to assure publication. 



5602 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Meeting to be called with Comrade Traehtenberg and the various writers to 
discuss the plan. Subjects to be written up: 

1. History of America. 

2. Science — rise of modern natural sciences. 

3. History of mankind. 

4. Evolution — organic evolution, origin of man. 

5. Negro culture — history of Negro people and cultural background. 

6. Religion. 

7. Human behavior. 

8. Education. 

9. Race theories. 

10. Rewrite 12 weeks' course in form of booklet. 

Have conference with Traehtenberg and arrange for calling of conference of 
professors and discuss perspectives and have 3 or 4 booklets ready by next 
September. 

Joe Starobin should be responsible for publications in general. To have per- 
spective of N. T. district and N. O. apparatus to be combined. 

Get apparatus and definite funds for literature in districts and branches. 
Each branch should start with a fund of $5 by the end of April. The party 
is having a school for literature agents and the P. B. consented to having 
5 Y. C. L. comrades attend. One of these should be Comrade Mitchell and 
four other leading comrades in literature work in the major districts. Na- 
tionally, we should do what New York did and have a pamphlet a month for 
concentration. It may be a party pamphlet. It should be taken up at one 
meeting of each branch every month. Perhaps, the first meeting of the month 
should be devoted to the Review, and the second meeting to the pamphlet for 
the month. 

One thing to be settled : We have to make a radical change in the manner of 
distribution and the attitude of the league toward literature. We need the 
cooperation of every district and first of all New York. We should start on 
"the pamphlet a month," New York and the N. O. should select the pamphlet, 
send out leaflets, posters, etc. We could also use party pamphlets. By the 
end of the year if Comrade Mitchell makes the grade, there will be room for 
a full-time person in charge of distribution and promotion. 

We are lagging in the student field. Someone should be called into the 
Buro to discuss how we are bringing Marxist literature into the schools. We 
should try to open book stores near the colleges or have a trailer sell books at 
a different college every day. 

Every branch, section, county, district, must have a literature fund. And 
we have to find the proper people whose main responsibility should be literature. 

The District and N. O. should work together more closely with perspective of 
merging them when the comrades in New York have established the work there. 
Joe Starobin to be in charge of publications in the N. O. 

Instruct the districts that all funds for literature be kept separate. 

4. Review.- — March issue: printed 5,00(1. distributed 4,650, $60 outstanding, $00 
owed to National Office. Districts which have not paid for March issue will not 
get April issue. Cost of March issue, $410. April issue cost $335 and $60 worth of 
ads secured. Should make $60 on April issue. Cost was cut at expense of quality 
of magazine. 

Proposals for May issue: May Day theme — technical work to be improved: 
quality of cover and paper to be heavier. 

5. Mexico. — Gil : On developments since the last meeting : The taking over of 
the oil industry by the government represents the further development of the 
whole struggle by the anti-fascists, and the Administration of Cardenas repre- 
senting the people of Mexico foreign imperial interests. However, we should 
understand that the struggle in Mexico has assumed sharper proportions entail- 
ing tremendous dangers for the whole peoples movement in Mexico and for the 
whole continent and for us in the U. S. Now the foreign interests are going to 
keep Mexican oil out of the international market if it's the last thing they do. 
At the same time, the first wages have come out of the government treasury and 
the government will not be able to maintain payments without making arrange- 
ments for distribution and sale of oil. 

The whole perspective is one of tremendous internal difficulties and as they 
increase they will increase those elements in the government who are following 
Cardenas today, because they have no other alternative, but they are beginning 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5QQ3 

to vacillate and oppose Cardenas in regard to the oil, and they will do so in regard 
to everything else, and will link up with the fascists and foreign imi>erialist 
interests and sabotage and work for I lie destruction of the whole program. 

In a discussion with Sanchez we worked ont what steps should be taken for 
Mexico and agreed on the following: (1) At the People's Front Congress, opening 
the .'{1st of .March, a Youth Department should he established for the new party 
and rhis department attempt to bring about unification of the existing organiza- 
tions of youth and the organization of large masses of youth not yet organized. 
(2) Before the calling of a national conference of unification a committee of 
collaboration of all existing organizations of youth he set up on a minimum pro- 
gram bringing in such organizations as the university students and sections of the 
Catholic students. (3) To call a special congress of the J. S. U. M. and C. J. U. M. 
before the unification congress. To promote this plan when Comrade Sanchez 
goes back to take up with the Mexican Party the calling of a special conference 
of the Central Committee of youth cadres throughout the country to discuss 
perspectives, tasks, and development of the youth movement. 

Then we dealt with what we are to do in the U. S. for Mexico. (1) We should 
publish a pamphlet written by someone of the Mexican comrades. This pamphlet 
should make a direct appeal to the youth of the U. S. (2) Representatives from 
the Mexican youth movement to the Youth Congress on July 4th. (3) There 
Should be official communications between the Mexican youth movement and the 
A. Y. ('. (4) We should send a delegation to the Congress of the J. S. U. M. to 
include non-Communist youth. (5) Harry Robinson to be responsible for contact 
between our buro and all Latin-American countries. (G) Sanchez should be our 
Mexican correspondent for the Review. 

Wilson : There should be a specific pamphlet on the question of the Catholics 
in Mexico. Also explain the line-up of forces on the oil question. Draw parallels 
between Spain and Mexico. 

Harry Robinson : There should be delegations from all La tin- American countries 
to the World Youth Congress. In our educational work we should bring out facts 
about fascist penetration in Mexico and other Latin-American countries. 

Carl: We must connect the situation in Spain with the possibility of the 
same thing occurring in Mexico. In the July 4th Congress there should be 
special panels and discussion on our relationship with young people of other 
lands. We have the responsibility for working in the states bordering on 
Mexico. We should develop cultural and educational activities among the 
young Mexican people there. We should see that the Party in those areas pays 
proper attention to this problem. We should have a delegation to investigate 
conditions in Mexico including young people from as many organizations as 
possible. 

Sanchez: The oil interests are seeking to gain U. S. intervention against the 
decision of the Cardenas Government. If Roosevelt does not support this there 
will be a campaign against Roosevelt. Therefore, it is absolutely necessary 
that all proposals made here should be carried out and the question of Mexico 
should receive important consideration in the TJ. S. It is necessary that the 
Y. C. L. of the U. S., in a combined campaign with the Youth Commission of 
the Mexican Party and also the youth organizations of Mexico, realize the 
necessity of an intensive campaign to organize the Mexicans in the U. S. In 
the 1'. S. it is necessary to carry on propaganda and education of the true 
situation in Mexico. The delegations should be arranged and attended to. 
This coming summer Joe Lash assured me that there will be a strong student 
delegation. Invitations for these delegations can be extended and if not from 
the President of Mexico from other important people. 

Proposals adopted: (1) Communicate regularly with the comrades in Mex- 
ico, publish a pamphlet appealing to the youth of the IT. S. with special 
emphasis on the Catholics. (2) The A. Y. C. should establish closer rela- 
tionship with the Mexican youth. (3) Delegation to investigate condi- 
tions in Mexico. (4) We should send an official letter from the National 
Committee of the League to the J. U. Y. M. expressing agreement with 
the action of the President and solidarity with them and determination 
to do everything in our power in this country to see that the imperialist 
interests do nothing to destroy the Mexican governnkent and leadership 
and at the same time to do everything to help them emerge victorious 
in the struggle against the imperialist interests. 

6. 72. O. T. C. memorandum. — The Reserve Officers* Training Corps was 
established as a result of the National Defense Act of 1910 as amended in 1!)20. 



5604 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The R. O. T. C. provides reserve officers for the United States Army. A student 
at any college where an R. O. T. C. exists, after completing the four-year 
course, will be commissioned as a 2nd Lt. in the Army Reserve. The courses 
at the college are under the direct control of Army officers who are assigned 
to this duty by the War Department. 

The Y. C. L. is opposed to compulsory military training in the R. O. T. C. 
which now exists in many colleges and universities. We believe that this pro- 
cedure is un-American and undemocratic and has no place in our country. The 
Y. C. L. is for the Nye-Kvale Bill, which abolishes the compulsory R. O. T. C. 

Because of the strenuous and militant struggles against the R. 6. T. C, many 
progressive students have come to the erroneous conclusion that the best thing 
to do is to boycott the R. O. T. C. This practice is most disastrous for pro- 
gressive students. The net result of this idea has been that only the reac- 
tionary and bourgeois students have become versed in the knowledge of the use 
of arms. Reactionary college administrations and fascist groups have used 
R. O. T. C. groups on the campus to attack progressive student organizations 
physically, break up meetings, and violate civil liberties generally. 

Progressive anti-fascist students should not permit this to continue, they 
should avail themselves of the opportunities for securing military training and 
becoming commissioned in the officers Reserve Corps of the U. S. A., and thus 
from within fight against the reactionary officers in the R. O. T. C. who carry 
on propaganda against the labor movement, to demand their removal and their 
replacement by officers sympathetic to labor. Progressive students should heed 
the lessons of Spain and take advantage of this opportunity to become ac- 
quainted with and to be educated in Military Science and not allow the 
bourgeoisie to have the monopoly on the knowledge of military science. 

Every available opportunity must be utilized to get progressive students to 
join the R. O. T. C, at the same time fighting against compulsory attendance, 
against reactionary officers, thus to liquidate the R. O. T. C. as an instrument 
of reaction. The knowledge of military sciences is of inestimable value to 
working people, particularly in view of the efforts being made in this country 
by fascist-minded men to win over large sections of the army for support of 
fascism. 

The Chairman. What about Mexico? 

Mr. Matthews. Under the heading "Mexico" there is a report by 
"Gil." That is Gil Green? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. This is a lengthy statement on Mexico. The pur- 
port of it is that at the People's Front Congress a youth department 
should be established. It shows the extent to which this organiza- 
tion would go in Mexico. This would correspond to the youth organi- 
zation in Mexico, so as to make a united front across the international 
boundary line. 

I show you some copies of the publication Champion, which was 
mentioned in the minutes, or resolutions, adopted at the Minnesota 
State committee meeting of the Young Communist League, held in 
Minneapolis on November 28 and 29, 1936. There is a brief para- 
graph on this publication Champion, which reads as follows : 

The appeal of the Champion is so broad that not only the Y. C. L. but every 
youth organization should be supporting it and geting bundle orders and sub- 
scriptions in the present drive. United committees to support the Champion 
should- be set up wherever possible, based on the elected agents of all youth 
groups that support the Champ. 

Do you recall that document ? 
Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Matthews. You received that ? 
Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Of your own personal knowledge, can you say that 
the Champion is a publication of the Young Communist League '. 



UN-AMEUICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5605 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir; I was agent of the Champion in the Milwaukee 
area for '2 years. 

The Chairman. Is it true that the publication conceals that fact? 

Mr. Mattiikws. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Like the front organizations in New York, they 
-will hold meetings, but conceal themselves from view, for the purpose 
of getting prominent people to come and give prestige to the organi- 
zation. Is that a fact '. 

Mr. Goff. That is right. 

Mr. Thomas. What do you refer to, Mr. Chairman? 

The Chairman. The so-called Civil Liberties National Convention, 
with representatives from the American League for Peace and De- 
mocracy, the International Labor Defense, and so forth. This com- 
mittee went on record unanimously in stating that they were all 
Communist Party front organizations. We found that to be the fact 
from the testimony of witnesses and from documentary proof. Yet 
outstanding leading people will go there and continue to lend en- 
couragement to this Communist movement by making speeches at 
those meetings. 

Mr. Thomas. Who are they? 

The Chairman. The program shows that. 

Mr. Mason. The newspapers will announce the outstanding 
speakers. 

Mr. Thomas. What is the date of that meeting? 

Mr. Matthews. October 13-14. 

Mr. Thomas. Where is it to be held ? 

Mr. Matthew t s. I do not know. 

Mr. Goff, can you identify the members of the managing board 
and of the editorial board listed in Champion as members of the 
Young Communist League? 

Mr. Goff. I can identify the managing board. I can identify 
Francis Franklin. As to the editorial board, right off-hand, I cannot 
say, but I can identify of the contributing group Edward Strong, 
James Wechsler, Angelo Herndon. Abbott Simon, Al Levitt, and 
there may be some others. On the advisory committee, they have 
some other people who are not Communists. 

Mr. Matthews. The advisory editors are also listed there, and that 
is a pretty fair indication 

The Chairman (interposing). Head the list of advisory editors. 

Mr. Matthews. The names listed are as follows: Senator Lynn J. 
Frazier, Dr. Eduard C. Lindeman, Prof. Jerome Davis, Oswald Gar- 
rison Villard, Frank Palmer, William Ziegner, C. Hartley Grattan, 
John R. Tunis. Kenneth M. Gould, Harry Elmer Barnes, Rose Terlin. 
and Robert Morss Lovett. 

Mr. Thomas. You mentioned a man named Lindeman. What are 
his initials? 

All-. Mattiikws. Eduard C. Lindeman. 

Mr. Thomas. Before you get away from that in the record, I think 
wo should know something about Air. Lindeman, or what his activi- 
ties are. Do you mind bringing that up now, or will you do that a 
little later? 

The Chairman. Does the witness know? 

Mr. Thomas. I am asking Mr. Matthews. 



5606 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. I am not testifying now. 

Mr. Thomas. Will yon bring that up later? 

Mr. Matthews. Subsequently Mr. Lindeman will be identified as on 
an important committee of the national organization. 

The Chairman. Lindeman served on the national committee? 

Mr. Matthews. That is correct. 

Mr. Voorhis. I would like to say this : Naturally, there are lots of 
people in the United States who are interested in civil liberties and 
many different causes of that kind, and it is perfectly natural and 
understandable that many people who are interested in civil liberties, 
will try to do whatever they can to advance that cause. They may 
be utterly mistaken about them. When you seize upon something 
that is fundamental in the American system, we sometimes make the 
thing confusing. 

The Chairman. There is no question about that, but as to these 
organizations, this committee has unanimously found them to be 
front organizations of the Communist Party, and that finding was 
widely published. You could say, of course, that a year ago a great 
many good people were absolutely deceived on that point, but when 
we continued from day to day, with testimony from the most compe- 
tent witnesses to establish that fact, so that not even the radicals 
could attack the testimony, showing the manipulations and workings 
of the Communist Party, and showing how they are using these 
various organizations to carry out the Communist program, or the 
program of foreign governments, and yet these people continue to 
make addresses to them, that raises a serious question to my mind. I 
am willing to concede that for a long time they were deceived, but 
not after these disclosures were made. That is the point I am raising 
now. We are not trying to embarrass those people, but it looks to me 
when this committee finds these organizations to be Communist front 
organizations, and prominent Government officials appear before them 
next week and lend them their support, it raises a serious question. 

Mr. Thomas. They are not only lending their support, but they are 
encouraging them. 

The Chairman. Nobody has accused them of being Communists, but 
the point I call attention to is that they are giving them support in 
carrying out the Communist program in the United States. There 
must be some way of having those people realize what they are doing. 

Mr. Matthews. The witness has already testified to his official con- 
nection with the national committee of the Young Communist League, 
and I would like him to identify this document with reference to the 
meeting of the State committee of the Communist Party. Do you 
identify that communication? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What is this communication ? 

Mr. Goff. It reads: 

Dear Ken: You are invited to attend the meeting of the State committee. 
Please try to be present. 
Comradely, 

N. Sparks. 

Mr. Matthews. This is signed N. Sparks, State secretary, and F. B. 
Blair, State organizer. 

Mr. Thomas. Is that the State committee of Wisconsin? 



I N-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5607 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you attend the meeting? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mi. Matthews. So you have attended State meetings of the Com- 
.m i mist Party? : £{ 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What was your official connection with the Ameri- 
can Youth Congress? 

Mr. Gorr. I was a member of the national administrative committee. 

Mr. Matthews. How long have you had an official connection of any 
sort with the American Youth Congress? 

Mr. Goff. From about 1936. I was State chairman of the Ameri- 
can Youth Congress for Wisconsin for a year and a half. 

Mr. Matthews. "Were you in charge of the arrangements for a 
meeting of the American Youth Congress? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir; I was in Milwaukee. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please identify this document, addressed 
"AH Units. District 18, Young Communist League; How to Get Dele- 
gate- for the American Youth Congress Committees"? 

Mr. Goff. Yes, sir; I received that. 

Mr. Matthews. From the district organizer of the Young Com- 
munist League for the State of Wisconsin. It is addressed "To All 
Units, District 18, Young Communist League; How to Get Delegates 
for the American Youth Congress." [Heading:] 

To all units, District 18, Young Communist League: 

How to Gkt Delegates for the American Youth Congress Committees 

The C. I.— 

that is the Communist International — 

in the Seventh World Congress places squarely before us the central task of the 
day — the United Front. At this time when the bourgeois authorities are mini- 
mizing the danger of world slaughter and telling the youth that the European 
war situation has nothing to do with us and we must keep our noses out of it — 
at this time the Y. C. L. must press forward to organize the youth into united 
action. We must develop among the youth the consciousness of the danger of 
war and what it moans to all the youth. 

The Chairman. That was before Russia got into it? 
Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

The Chairman. They were very much opposed to isolation prior to 
Russia getting into the war and that shows what it was. 
Mr. Matthews (reading) : 

And when we speak of a United Front against war, we have the instrument of 
the United Front in the American Youth Congress. 

Tlii' concrete results of our work in organizing a United Front among the youth 
depend on the quality of our work — upon our understanding of what the Youth 
Congress is and what it can accomplish. 

The most immediate results in organizing for the Y'outh Congress is in the 
building of Youth Councils in the neighborhoods, whore the program of the 
Congress will he carried out. This is especially true in Milwaukee, since a city 
committee without ;i base in the neighborhoods to take up the local issues will not 
he able to penetrate very deeply among the youth. In Madison, for example, it 
is possible to organize a Youth Council of the campus organization, and another 
council among the youth of the city. Both of these councils will work separately 
in dealing with their own local problems, hut will act together through a broad 
L — 39 — vol. 9 — 23 



5608 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

city committee on common issues. In smaller towns where we do not have 
a separation of neighborhood interests, a city committee is sufficient — in the 
farm sections county committees can eventually be built to tie the city committees 
together. A strong State committee can be built only after the American Youth 
Congress develops locally. This is our perspective for the structure of the 
United Front of youth in Wisconsin, but we cannot be mechanical on any of these 
points — the structure will vary according to the community. But it is important 
to remember that this framework must be filled in with activity in order to 
maintain its life for any length of time. 

The Y. C. L. units will have the responsibility of visiting organizations in their 
neighborhoods to get delegates for youth councils, but this work must be spread 
out — it must not remain in the hands of Y. C. L. members alone. The comrades 
must do everything possible to involve non-League people in visiting organiza- 
tions — perhaps getting some non-League youth to go along with a Y. C. L.'er, etc. 
This principle must be continued in the work of the councils. The first step is 
to see that every League member joins a mass organization (Y, church, trade- 
union, Workers Alliance, student group, etc.). The next step is to gain the inter- 
est of individual members of this organization and of others. Then, with support 
from the floor, the question of building a Youth Council can be brought forward 
with greater confidence. 

I should like to ask Mr. Goff a question right here : It is stated here 
that the first step is to see that every league member joins a mass organ- 
ization, such as a church, a Y. M. C. A., a trade-union, Workers Al- 
liance, student group, and so forth. Now 7 , Mr. Goff, the purpose of 
that is to enable the Young Communist League members to go as dele- 
gates from churches or other organizations than the American Youth 
group and appear to represent churches, and so forth, instead of the 
Young Communist? 

Mr. Gorr. That is true. At one congress there were too many 
Y. C. L.'ers, and they had to send some home 

Mr. Thomas. You mean they had more than w T ere authorized as 
delegates. 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. And had to send some home? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. A Y. C. L.'er is no good at a Y. C. L. convention. 

Mr. Thomas. What, convention was that? 

Mr. Goff. That was at Cleveland. 

Mr. Thomas. The Cleveland congress? 

Mr. Goff. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I have not read all of this, but I 
think the entire document should be in the record. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

(The matter referred to follows:) 

In appealing for delegates, we must come armed with copies of the Declara- 
tion of Rights and of the American Youth Act. Mimeographed copies of this 
Act will be distributed, but the units must use the collection list which will also 
be issued and raise money to send for printed copies of both documents. These 
may be ordered through the district office at $1.25 per thousand plus postage. 

We must come prepared to answer such questions as — 

What is the American Youth Congress? 

Who is behind it? 

What local organizations belong? 

Where are your local headquarters? 

The essential facts about the 2nd American Youth Congress are to be found 
in the proceedings of the Congress itself. The delegates have already received 
copies of this which should be made immediately available to every other Y. C. L. 
Member, to be read individually or in the units. Those units which have not 
nlrpfidv had a discussion on the Congress must arrange one as soon as possible. 
If there is no comrade in the unit who was a delegate at the Congi-ess, the unit 
buro can arrange with the District to supply a comrade who was at the Congress 
to lead the discussion. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5609 

The events leading up to the 2nd American Youth Congress are to be found in 
the pamphlet "The Truth About the 2nd American Youth Congress," which sells 
at 5 cents. The unit buros must see to it that every League member who has not 
read this pamphlet must order it at once. These can also be ordered thru the 
District office. 

The credentials report of the Congress shews that groups of practically every 
political opinion — every church affiliation were represented at the Congress. We 
must make it very clear that the Congress is nonpolitical and nonsectarian — 
that its purpose is to deal with the problems of youth, in the matters of social 
security, of opposition to war and fascism, of the lack of educational and recrea- 
tional opportunities, etc. We must popularize the slogan — "Peace, freedom, and 
progress." We must emphasize the fact that the Declaration of Rights repre- 
sent^ the principles on which the Congress stands, that this document contains 
in it the minimum on which the many youth organizations have united. 

Our Wisconsin delegation of 33 came from the following organizations: Ep- 
worth League (1st Methodist Church of Milwaukee) ; Presbyterian Church 
(south side Milwaukee) ; Y. M. C. A.; Filling Station Operators Union (A. F. 
of L.) : Wisconsin Youth Assembly; Young People's Socialist League (Milwaukee 
County) ; Young Communist League; Polish Youth Club of Milwaukee; Interna- 
t